Conference vmszoo::rc

    Great subject Al - I have a couple questions to get things going...
    
    I cheated a little for my first two paint jobs.  I used white
    Super Coverite fabric iron-on and sprayed on Aerogloss dope.  I
    have two problems with this.  First, you have to be VERY careful
    pulling off the masking or you can pull up the paint under it.
    Second, after some amount of wear and tear the paint came off in
    a couple places and I've had to do some touch-up.
    
    The Super Coverite is fuel proof and airtight to start with, but
    I thought the first coat would grab in the weave.  But apparently
    it didn't grab very well.  Is there a primer I could have used for
    better results, or is it just not a good idea to use these kind of
    coverings as a base for paint?  One thing that might have happened
    is that the first coat dried too fast and didn't really get into
    the weave - maybe I should have used a retarder on the primer coat?
    
    For my present project I am going to use .5 ounce fiberglass cloth
    and epoxy (ever hear of Envirotex Light epoxy?).  I was going to
    use epoxy paint for the first time.  Any suggestions?

    Thanks, this will be a big help for anyone interested in getting
    started with painting!
    
    Bill

    Yes, do tell us the proper way of masking so that the paint does
    not run under the tape or so the tape does not pull off the paint.
    
    Then, how do you do insignias??  The roundels should be relatively
    easy once you answer the question on masking (although curves are
    a lot harder).  But what about intricate detail like the Indian
    Head on the side of a Nieuport.  Do you paint the insignia on a
    seperate piece of material then transfer it onto the plane, or do
    you just freehand (ie screw it up a number of times) after the plane
    is covered and painted?
    
    I hear that SIG dope is the best thing to use...
    
    How do you spray but not cover up detail such as pinked edges and
    stitch marks??
    
    Thanks,
    jeff
    

    
    	To add some of my spare change to this conversation, there are
    four major bases (that I can think of) for paint. They are paper
    and dope, silk and dope, fiberglass cloth and resin (or some other
    adhesive material) and iron on cloth.  To date I have used three
    of these bases; paper, fiberglass and iron on.  To these materials
    I have sprayed epoxy, lacher (sp) and polly U.  The preperation
    for all was the same. After the bas material was affixed to the
    plane all I did was to spray a coat of gray primer over the surface.
    This was then sanded off. Left was a gray speckling where the primer
    was filling depressing on the surface. This was then followed by
    a second thin coat of paint, sander and then the color added. One
    caution I must raize is that paint only adds weight to a plane.
    Keep the paint as thin as possible while covering the surface.
    
    						Tom

	REPLIES:
	========
    
>    I cheated a little for my first two paint jobs.  I used white
>    Super Coverite fabric iron-on and sprayed on Aerogloss dope.  I
>    have two problems with this.  First, you have to be VERY careful
>    pulling off the masking or you can pull up the paint under it.
>    Second, after some amount of wear and tear the paint came off in
>    a couple places and I've had to do some touch-up.

	* Did you use everyday, plain-vanilla Coverite or the pre-painted
	Perma-gloss Coverite??  I have no knowledge what kind of pre-finish
	paint they use on Perma-gloss, but you "might have run into a little
	incompatibility problem.  Obviously, the Aerogloss didn't adhere too
	well.  If you DID use regular Super Coverite, read on.
    
>    The Super Coverite is fuel proof and airtight to start with, but
>    I thought the first coat would grab in the weave.  But apparently
>    it didn't grab very well.  Is there a primer I could have used for
>    better results, or is it just not a good idea to use these kind of
>    coverings as a base for paint?  

	* I use and recommend K&B epoxy primer.  I used it over super-shrink
	Coverite on all the flying surfaces (open-structure) on my Bucker
	Jungmeister and all the fabric covered control surfaces of the MiG-3
	with NO problems whatever.  I believe Coverite is excellent for use
	as a covering material...haven't used anything else for open structure
	since leaving the ol' silk 'n dope method behind.  A word of caution: 
	K&B epoxy primer "can" be heavy if not used correctly.  You almost 
	HAVE to spray it over open structures (wings) to minimize the amount
	of sanding required (sand carefully using open-coat aluminum oxide
	paper so as not to sand through the covering where it crosses ribs
	or other structure).  You may brush or spray over sheeted areas, i.e.
	fuselages, stabs, etc. but, in either case, SAND IT ALL OFF! to pre-
	vent weight build-up. Used properly, you should have only spots of
	primer here and there filling grain, weave, low spots, etc.
    
>    For my present project I am going to use .5 ounce fiberglass cloth
>    and epoxy (ever hear of Envirotex Light epoxy?).  I was going to
>    use epoxy paint for the first time.  Any suggestions?

	* I haven't used any of the epoxy resins for applying glass-cloth
	(I prefer plain old K&B polyester resin) but Dan Parsons SWEARS
	by Envirotex. (Dan markets his own .6 oz. cloth [excellent] and in-
	cludes detailed instructions on applying it using Envirotex.)  I've
	watched him use it and, if there's a key to success, it's to keep
	the resin THIN!!  Dan uses industrial purity isopropyl alcohol or
	equivalent and thins the resin to an almost watery consistency for
	applying the cloth, then uses an only slightly thicker mixture for
	the second coat which he flows on as heavy as possible without run-
	ning.  Then, starting with 80, yes 80 grit open-coat aluminum oxide
	paper (the pale gray stuff) he virtually sands all the resin off, at
	least to the level of the cloth. Follow this with a coat or two of 
	yer' favorite primer and yer' ready for color.  BTW, if you can stand 
	the odor, the reason I like the polyester resin is because it KICKS 
	in about 20 minutes and allows you to go right on covering while the
	epoxies make you let everything cure overnight before you can pro-
	ceed.  Just a personal preference.  Once yer' past the annoyance of 
	having to mix part-A and part-B, you'll probably love epoxy colors.
	They cover well (that's why they sell it in those itty-bitty cans)
	and are fuel and (I think) bullet proof.  BTW, once cured, you can 
	mask almost at once with no fear of lifting the paint.

>    Yes, do tell us the proper way of masking so that the paint does
>    not run under the tape or so the tape does not pull off the paint.

	* Use of a "lo-tack" masking tape pretty much eliminates pulling
	up base-coat paint.  BUT, the biggest contributor to this problem
	is not allowing the paint to cure-out.  Even dopes should be allow-
	ed to cure out at least a week before taping for trim...Poly-U and
	other urethanes (like RS Perfect Paint) require even longer.  To
	prevent leakage under the tape, I've never done anything but "ironed"
	it down well with the edge of my thumbnail immediately prior to 
	spraying...however, if this doesn't get 'er done for you, spray on a
	coat of clear to seal the tape edge and let it dry before shooting
	color....this way, if the tape leaks, it leaks clear which now seals
	the tape edge for color.
    
>    Then, how do you do insignias??  The roundels should be relatively
>    easy once you answer the question on masking (although curves are
>    a lot harder).  But what about intricate detail like the Indian
>    Head on the side of a Nieuport.  Do you paint the insignia on a
>    seperate piece of material then transfer it onto the plane, or do
>    you just freehand (ie screw it up a number of times) after the plane
>    is covered and painted?

	* Clear shelf paper is widely used for cutting special masks and I
	used to use it myself.  Lately though, I've developed a preference 
	for liquid masking film (mkt'd by Flite-Glas I think).  I did the
	war-bonneted Indian-head on the nose of Bob Frey's old P-47 named
	"Little Chief" using masking film to apply the outline in white.
	Then I simply pencilled in the details (here's where you can make
	yer' screw-ups...just erase and re-draw) and hand painted them in
	just like the old "paint-by-number" sets...pretty simple and you 
	DON'T have to be a Rembrandt to do it!  Look for pic's of Bob's
	newest Jug named "Earthquake McGoon" in forthcoming coverage of the
	Western Scale Nat's in Scale R/C Modeler...I did the nose-art on 
	that one too using the same method.
    
>    I hear that SIG dope is the best thing to use...

	* Dunno', never used it but I hear good things about it.  I've
	gotten completely away from dopes in favor of automotive acrylic 
	lacquers (Ditzler's are real nice).
    
>    How do you spray but not cover up detail such as pinked edges and
>    stitch marks??
    
	* Several LIGHT coats will preserve yer' surface detail, even enhance
	it....one-or-two HEAVY coats will bury it!

>    I have sprayed epoxy, lacher (sp) and polly U.  The preperation
>    for all was the same. After the bas material was affixed to the
>    plane all I did was to spray a coat of gray primer over the surface.
>    This was then sanded off. Left was a gray speckling where the primer
>    was filling depressing on the surface. 

	* Again this is the key; SAND VIRTUALLY ALL THE PRIMER OFF, regardless
	of what kind you use, and you'll add very little weight to yer' bird.
	If you've got gaps 'n cracks you could throw a cat through and you
	try to fill these with primer, you'll think the plane's built from
	boiler plate when yer' done.  From bare glass-cloth, my 75", 970 sq."
	MiG-3 only picked up "7" ounces of primer and color paint.

	Adios fer' now,		Al

    Ahhh, so you built a jungmeister too.  No wonder you want to talk
    to Irv...
    
    Hold it..  I thought that you pretty much had to do all of the
    detailing work yourself?  Did this other guy have you do the nose
    section then note it in the documentation?  Boy, that would be great
    as the Indian head is the most difficult (and certainly one of the
    most obvious) things that I could easily screw up..  Perhaps I can
    find an artist to draw the picture then just paint it in...
    
    Any comments about masking regular curves like roundels??
    
    Thanks,
    jeff
    

    Jeff,
    
    Exactly....You must do ALL the work yer'self "OR" state in yer'
    documentation which thing(s) you did NOT do.  In this case, Bob
    mentions in his color and markings doc. that the nose-art was
    done by Al Casey (Hey!..that's me!).  You should consider giving
    it a try...as I said, it really isn't as hard as you may think.
    The hardest part is just sketching the emblem/badge/whatever to
    the desired scale to start with and there're MANY methods of doing
    this, the easiest of which is probably using an overhead projector
    to blow the image on the wall...move the projector nearer/farther
    to yer' paper on the wall, taking measurements 'til the right size
    is attained, then simply trace it...VOILA!, yer' half way home.
    
    On masking yer' roundels...I'd do it the same way we do the star-and-
    bar U.S. insignia.  Using card-paper (like a manilla folder), lay
    out with a compass and cut out a card-paper circle for each color-
    ring of the roundel.  Now, tape off the general area where the roundel
    is to be placed and spray on the liquid masking film with an air-brush.
    Once the film is dry (about 2-hr.'s) carefully align the largest
    circle in position and "lightly" trace around it with a SHARP scalpel
    or X-acto knife w/#11 blade.  DON'T WORRY!...yer' not gonna' use
    enough pressure to cut through yer' fabric.  Now peel the film away
    leaving a perfectly masked circle...use the air-brush to paint the
    outside ring color into the entire circle.  When dry, spray on another
    coat of masking film and let dry...then align the next size circle,
    trace around with knife, peel and spray the next color.  Just repeat
    this process as many times as you have colored rings to paint and
    you've got it...Yeah!, it takes a little time but the professional
    results are well worth it.
    
    Adios,	Al
    

    I'll give a quick and dirty input on just three items; the first
    is a foolproof method of sealing ANY masking tape to prevent paint
    bleed under; second is how to save weight in certain paint schemes
    by going LIGHT OVER DARK (opposite the accepted, NORMAL way to do
    it); and third......a QUICK AND DIRTY WAY TO CHEAT ON A PAINT JOB!!!
    
    1. MASKING TAPE ANTI-BLEED THROUGH...... Paint on your regular paint
    color coat. Let dry. Put on your masking tape, sealing with your
    fingers and fingernails as best as possible. Here it goes.... To
    seal the tape against paint seepage under it, don't depend on your
    pressure seal, don't depend on a coat of clear whatever to seal
    the edges, FILL A FINE TIPPED BRUSH WITH EXACTLY THE SAME PAINT,
    COLAR AND ALL, THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO COVER UP AND BRUSH IT ALONG
    THE TAPE, PAINTING THE TAPE EDGE AND EXPOSED SURFACE. If the paint
    leaks under the tape, you have just added a little paint of exactly
    the same color on top of the paint already there! VOILA!!! When
    the masking color is dry, paint on the new color. Pull tape off
    when wet or very dry, not in between. New car rubbing compound (white,
    fine) works nicely to smooth the hard edges of masked paint.
    2.LIGHT COLORS PAINTED OVER DARKER. This is the reverse of what
    we have always been told to do. The classic example is a solid red
    airplane with white stripes on it...They turn out,,,,PINK!!!!
    But instead of painting an airplane all white, then repainting most
    of it red to get the aforementioned white stripes and HEAVY, HEAVY,
    airplane, do this! Paint your dark color and mask for your striping.
    Seal tape with the same dark color as mentioned in previous paragraph.
    get out your bottle of CESSNA GREY (a very light blue-grey color).
    and paint the area as if this was the color you wanted the trim,
    one coat will do. Let dry. Paint area again with the light color
    trim you want. Works everytime; white on top of stearman red
    (international orange) comes out white on top of red; no bleed through.
    I have been using this for years and it always works. (note; why
    you think auto body shops use CESSNA GREY PRIMER?)
    3.Here is the cheating part....QUICK, DIRTY, LOOKS GREAT. Demo..ed
    this to Howard McEntee once and he almost fainted away. I don't
    say this is THE WAY to go and it has its deficiencies, but it sure
    does work. ALL WOOD (no open areas or open bays, only sheeting or
    blocks) put on two coats of clear. Sand after dry just to take all
    the fuzz off. Take covering CLOTH (whatever) and soak in water.
    Put over frame while very wet. Pull tight. POUR CLEAR DOPE on material.
    USING HANDS, work dope into cloth, spreading it, soaking it with
    clear dope, push dope as much as possible through material. When
    tired and the stuff is starting to set up a little, leave it be
    to dry. Will look milky, frothy and YUCKY. On open areas such as
    open wing bays, throw material on as before, sealing around edges
    with palm full of dope. Pull tight. Hold wing flat over you head
    and palm coat with dope the surface closest to your head, pushing
    dope into weave of fabric. If held overhead, any dope that does
    go through material will tend to come back through to the lower
    surface or outside of fabric. If any globs form, use light cardboard
    like from cereal boxes and squeegie the surface, breaking up globs
    and spreading them. After one side of wing done and fairly well
    set up, turn over and over your head again, do the other side.
    When the machine is dry, do do a feather sanding (like the lightest
    possible to break any fuzz and then paint a coat of color. This
    one color coat may do it. If not, let dry, lightly sand it as filler
    coat and put on one more color coat. That's it, unless you want
    a clear coat and or rubbing compound. The finish will dazzle you!
    PS, the milky coat disappeared with the color coat. The only place
    you might notice some shortcomings is when the aircraft is destroyed;
    the covering can be peeled off, entoto and stuffed with cotton to
    look just you were a taxidermist of lost airplanes. Since there
    is not good "TOOTH" of the fabric onto the wood and since the dope
    or what have you was water contaminated, there was a certain loss
    of strength, so build the structure to take the loads. My ships
    were fine until the hit asphalt or concrete full bore, engine first.
    
    Bye-the-bye, have you ever tried translucent dope finishes. Two
    ounces of colored dope out of the bottle per quart of clear dope
    of spraying consistency. It has all the color, but is transparent
    and BEAUTIFUL!

    Don,
    
    re: -.7  THAT'S "EXACTLY" THE KINDA' STUFF I HOPED THIS COLUMN WOULD
    EVOKE FROM THE HINTERLANDS !!  Seriously, that was 71-lines of top-
    notch hints 'n kinks!  I don't claim to be the acknowledged master
    of painting techniques and was hopeful of picking up some new tricks
    myself...and it paid off already!
    
    That one on sealing yer' tape with the base color is a real "LU-LU!"
    (Wish I'd thought of that one myself!)  It's the ultimate of simplicity
    and, looks to me like, it's foolproof.
    
    Here's one for ya'...I don't use it anymore but it'd still be a
    viable technique:  have you ever used (or heard of using) plaster
    of paris and clear dope as a filler??  Sound HEAVY ??  Believe me
    it isn't...in fact it's lighter than talc/dope if applied properly.
    
    Adios amigo,	Al

    	
    	For those that aren't good at freehand, I've seen emblems ect.
    done on a copy machine. With one that enlarges and reduces you can
    get the size you need and then use this as a tracing.
    
    					Tom

    re .9 - Hmmm, that just reminded me..  
    
    I once saw that if you needed to freehand cut ribs and other parts,
    you could first make a (some) copies of it on a xerox machine. 
    Then, using an iron, transfer the toner to the balsa...  Then cut
    along the lines...
    
    I wonder how that would work transfering the toner onto the plane?
    There is the consideration of you only have one shot at it though.
    I will have to try it on a sample....  
    
    Thanks Tom!!
    jeff
    

    re.-1
    I love it, I love it !!!!
    
    This takes all the pain out scratch building a plane. The hard part
    for me is making sure the part to be cut are correct...
    
    md
    

    
    	A second method of transfer is to position the copy over the
    plane and make a series of pin holes thru the copy into the ship.
    Then you simply connect the dots. 
    	Also adding carbon paper between the copy and the plane helps
    the tracing part. 
    
    						Tom

    
    		I like this topic. It's just the information I'll be
    	needing in the next few weeks. I'm putting a Sig Kavalier
    	together now. Just bought an O.S. .40FSR for it (to bad O.S.
    	stopped producing the FSR line I really wanted a .45 but none
    	to be had, the .40 was all I could find, oh well) and have 
    	been trying to figure out how I would cover it.
    		I was hoping to use fiberglass but, I think it was
    	Bill Lewis or maybe Charlie Watt that reminded me that I 
    	could not cover over the open wing frame with it. The result
    	is that I am looking for some fabric technique to do the job
    	and not resort to films.
    		Please keep the hints comimg. Can someone give me
    	an idea of what I should expect to pay for a decent air 
    	brush setup to do all this fantastic sounding painting
    	over an appropriate cloth?
    
    					Thanx
    					Mike
    

    
    	I just got a Paache (sp?) airbrush from my auto-tool catalog,
    and it cost me about $50.00 .  This was for a VL model, (middle
    of the line) and there are models for as little as the high 30's
    all the way to the ceiling.  (Actually, the most expensive one
    in my catalog was around $85.00 .)
    
    	Brian
    

    
    		Does that include some sort of air supply, or
    	does one also have to buy a $100 dollar compressor or go
    	out and fill up a couple of inner tubes as I've heard others
    	talk about using?
    
    					Mike
    

    

    To Al...
    	Yes I used the regular white Super Coverite.  I agree it's
    nice to work with after some practice.  If you use too much heat
    the adhesive comes through and you get a smooth shiny surface
    (can be cleaned fairly well with dope thinner though).  Also,
    fraying at the edges can be a problem if you're not careful.  But
    it shrinks like a mother___ and goes on pretty easy!
    	I was scared off from epoxies (primer and paint) by an old
    timer who claimed that it's too brittle to be used over open
    framework.  Are you saying it's ok for open framework from your
    experience?  I'd like to stick with one kind of paint once I find
    the best for me.
    	Sorry about the typo - I did get the Dan Parsons .6 oz cloth
    with the nice write-up (that's where the Envirotex idea came from).
    I was wondering if anyone in this conference had tried it.  I'm
    willing to wait longer if I don't have to live (or die!) with the
    SMELL of polyester resin.
    					Thanks!
    
    To Mike -
    	I saved a lot of money with the help of my dad - he picked up
    one of those PEPSI pressure tanks and a high volume pump, all for
    less than $20 at a junkyard (Tombarello's in Lawrence Mass has
    LOTS of that kind of stuff).  Some tubing, fittings, and a pressure
    reduction valve and voila! low cost compressor.  I'm still looking
    for a higher pressure pump as this one only puts out about 30 PSI
    which is marginal - basically you want to pump the tank up to higher
    pressure, say 80 PSI or so, then reduce to 30 or so for the spray
    gun with a reduction valve (eliminates the `pulsing' from the pump).
    You can get fancy and add a pressure sensor to shut off the pump
    when the tank pressure hits 80 or so and turn it on when it gets
    down to 60 or 70.  Or you can just spend the bucks and buy a
    compressor.  Or you can borrow mine since it will be sitting around
    waiting for my next project to be ready for paint.
    	I use an automotive trim sprayer I got for about $50 - since
    then I've seen similar ones in flea markets for $20.  Obviously
    the more money you spend the better quality you get, but I've
    had good luck with my cheapie from Taiwan.
    	In addition you'll want an air brush (they're about $30 I think)
    for touch-up and fine jobs.
    	Don't know about other paints but Aerogloss dope needs to be
    thinned almost 50% from the can.  You'll end up spending a LOT of $$
    on thinner.  If you can find a cheap thinner just for cleaning up
    it will save a lot of money; I couldn't find one for Aerogloss.
    	From my *VERY LIMITED* experience I have found that the actual
    painting part is the least time consuming - preparation and clean-up
    dominate your time.  If you want your equipment to last, don't
    skimp on the clean-up!
    	One other thing - don't paint your everyday bang-around model
    unless you're willing to put up with the aggravation of pulling out
    the equipment, setting up, cleaning, trying to match old paint,
    etc. etc. for EVERY repair.  Believe me it's a royal pain in the
    butt and I won't do it again!

    Bill

Buying an air brush is something like buying a boat.  The cost of
the basic article just gets you into the club...the REAL cost is
all the other stuff.  I've been not using my Badger simply
because I haven't cracked the air problem yet.  Those cans of
precharged freon (or whatever that stuff is) wouldn't spray hot
water. The problem is that as you spray from them, the can gets
colder; the colder the can gets, the less pressure it delivers,
until you're spending more time fooling with the brush than
painting.

The best possible solution I've come up with, aside from spending
mucho bucks for a small compressor, is to get an old truck tire
and charge it up to about 50 lbs.  Then use the air regulator on
your brush line to spray at about 20 to 30 lbs.  This arrangement
should shoot 50% dope with no problem.  I haven't tried it yet,
because I know my wife will not put up with an old truck tire.
So... the latest scheme is to get one of those air tanks from a
tool house.   They can be charged up to 50 or more pounds, and
are clean and pretty.  This should work.

On fillers...My current favorite is to take good ol' 50% dope and
thicken it with cornstarch back to package consistency.  One coat
does the trick; a second coat maybe, if you want super slick.  I
brush on all color dope at 50%.  I've been toying with the idea
of using microballons instead of cornstarch as the filler
material; I just can't think of any advantage to it aside from
using a bunch of microballons I have laying around. 

On transferring parts...I trace the part onto vellum, then use
one or two methods to make the part.  I cement the vellum to the
wood with rubber cement, and cut the part out rough.  Then I sand
it to shape with #50 or #80 paper.  By carefully using the
sandpaper, you can take off the vellum at the same rate as the
wood and bring it to shape true to outline.  All straight lines
are cut against a steel ruler.  It is absolutely imperative that
straight lines, such as the sides of formers, be straight and
square for a true fuse -- in fact its a snap when you know
every part is true. 

If there is another part, such as a second fuse side, I pin the
two parts together and trace the outline onto the wood from the
finished part.  Of course, after cutting out the second part, I
pin the two pieces back together and sand both identical.

Another method is to simply lay the vellum on a piece of wood and
cut the part out; not as accurate, though. 

I do ribs in the stack sawing/sanding method I've described
elsewhere. 

p.s.  Most dopes are thinned with automotive acrylic lacquer
thinner.  I use the medium flash.  Do not use hardware-store
lacquer thinner; its completely different stuff.

As one who spent some time waving a paint sprayer for a living, I
can attest that cleanliness is next to godliness.  Not only
should a sprayer be clean, it should be surgically clean.  My
standard is to make the equipment look like I never used it.  No
kidding, this does make a difference.

    Bill,
    
    I've experienced ABSOLUTELY no problems whatsoever using K&B epoxy
    primer over open structure!  My "old" 7-yr old "Junkmeister" was
    done this way ahd has no cracks.  Again, you don't use much primer,
    just enough to provide a paint base, and you sand most of it off. 
    BTW, a heavy coat of paint is usually the culprit when you start
    to get cracking, NOT the primer; if it was properly applied, there
    simply isn't enough primer to crack. I use a plasticizer (from 
    Southern R/C Products) to minimize this possibility.
    
    For spray equipment clean-up of ALL dopes/lacquers, I use CHEEEEEEP
    acetone!
                                                        
    Adios,	Al

    BILL,
    
    I should have said "using K&B epoxy primer over 'Super Coverite' 
    over open structure!"  Also, I add the plasticizer to the color
    coats, NOT the primer.
    
    Al

>    	For those that aren't good at freehand, I've seen emblems ect.
>    done on a copy machine. With one that enlarges and reduces you can
>    get the size you need and then use this as a tracing.
    
	* Good thought Tom (I worked for Xerox for 12 yr.'s...should've
	thought of that one myself).  I've always freehanded my own art-
	work but, ANY method of enlarging/reducing to the required size
	will help those who'd prefer not to freehand.

>    I once saw that if you needed to freehand cut ribs and other parts,
>    you could first make a (some) copies of it on a xerox machine. 
>    Then, using an iron, transfer the toner to the balsa...  Then cut
>    along the lines...

	* A tad off the subject but this is a good/proven technique for 
	transferring parts from plans to wood when scratchbuilding.
    
>    This takes all the pain out scratch building a plane. The hard part
>    for me is making sure the part to be cut are correct...

	* Understand up-front that there is a "slight" induced distortion
	in this method due to the magnification factor built into copiers
	to compensate for slight misregistations of the copy paper.  As I
	say, the error is "slight" (2-3%) and the technique is widely used.

>    I wonder how that would work transfering the toner onto the plane?
>    There is the consideration of you only have one shot at it though.
>    I will have to try it on a sample....  
    
	* Might just work but bear in mind that the transferred toner is a
	thermo"plastic" and, as such, may not be compatible with some paints.
	Definitely experiment "before" trying it on yer' pride 'n joy!

    
>    	Also adding carbon paper between the copy and the plane helps
>    the tracing part. 

	* This is how I transfer artwork like nose-art, unit badges, etc.
	to the previously masked/painted background outline.
    
>    		I was hoping to use fiberglass but, I think it was
>    	Bill Lewis or maybe Charlie Watt that reminded me that I 
>    	could not cover over the open wing frame with it. The result
>    	is that I am looking for some fabric technique to do the job
>    	and not resort to films.

	* I use Super Coverite on all open structure and .6 ounce glass
	cloth on sheeted (solid) areas...then K&B epoxy primer overall.

>    				............. Can someone give me
>    	an idea of what I should expect to pay for a decent air 
>    	brush setup to do all this fantastic sounding painting
>    	over an appropriate cloth?
    
	* A serviceable airbrush (less compressor) can be had for around 
	$25.00...a "really good" double-action (I recommend this) like a
	Binks or Paasche (pronounced Pa-shay) will go for $50 and up. 
	Also, You should seriously consider getting a touch-up gun (small
	spray gun used for automative touch-up) as its size and perfomance
	make it the ideal choice for model painting...these go for $35 and
	up (watch the mail order house sales - a $100 Badger is frequently
	offered for $50 by Tower Hobbies).  Also, you'll need a compressor
	capable of at least 50 PSI and a regulator to control pressure.  I
	know..."more expense" but these items have many other uses around the 
	house and will last forever if properly cared for.

	Adios,	Al

    Guys,
    
    We seem to be digressing/wandering/meandering/moseying off the subject
    of "finishing" techniques.  Commentary on covering materials and
    application techniques are germane to the topic due to their close
    relationship to finishing/painting a model but, maybe, scratchbuilding
    techniques would be better left to a more appropriate topic.
    
    Let's try to confine this discussion to preparation for and application
    of painted, particularly, spray-painted finishes...whatcha' think ?? 
    
    When I find the time, I'll put together my favorite method(s) from
    bare structure-to-finished product for your perusal.  I don't contend
    that my method is THE best technique going but, frankly, I HATE
    TO PAINT and the methods I'll describe have proven to be the fastest,
    most painless "for me."  I'll just lay 'em out for yer' consideration
    and you can modify (or can 'em) as suits you.

    
    		Thanx for the replies guys. I can't remember which reply
    	it was but one of them turned on a light bulb. I have an 82
    	cubic foot 3000 lb capacity scuba tank that has not seen much
    	service this summer since I got into RC. The regulator that
    	I have has a hight and a low pressure output. Im not sure how
    	low is low however it may be possible to adapt a regulator either
    	directly from 3000 to 50, or low pressure out to 50. In this
    	way I should have more than enough air that is clean and dry
    	to do a couple of planes. The cost is $2 to fill the tank
    	and a 5 mile trip to the dive shop. 
    		Put this equipment to use in the winter instead of
    	using up storage space. Any comments on this method.
    
    				Mike
    

    I think I missed something  here.. 
    
    Why put a primer on on to sand it (What a pain !!) ALL off ??
    
    md

    Marc,
    
    The purpose of using primer is to fill all low places, e.g. cloth
    weave, wood grain, "minor" dings, etc. and provide a smooth, uniform
    base upon which to paint.  If the model didn't have to fly, tou
    could glop the primer on to yer' heart's content, winding up with
    a 1/16" layer of smooth HEAVY primer. 
    
    Since weight is a primary consideration with our models, the "trick"
    is to sand as much primer as possible back off, effectively leaving
    only what primer we REALLY need filling the little imperfections
    described above. Otherwise, we've needlessly added weight for no
    other purpose that to make our model resemble a boat anchor.
    
    Comprende amigo?...adios,	Al

	OK Guys,

	Here goes with my current favorite finishing method.  Once again,
	let me qualify the following by saying that this is not necessarily
	THE way to finish a model...it's simply "my way" to a simple, rea-
	sonably fast but very good finish.

	For starters, let's talk about basics:  you should be thinking fin-
	ish from the moment you glue the first two pieces of wood together.
	What I mean to say is BUILD CLEANLY!  Don't settle for just "good
	enough," especially regarding surface joints...be picky and demand
	a close fitting joint requiring NO fillers everywhere possible. The
	fewer fillers you have to use, the better the ultimate finish will 
	be.

	Secondly, let me highlight the MOST IMPORTANT finishing tool in the 
	workshop (it may also be the cheapest).  No, it's not yer' mega-buck
	compressor, spray-gun or airbrush...it's that lowly commodity called
	SANDPAPER.  That's right, do an adequate and proper job of sanding
	and the finishing process will be simplified manifold..., trust me,
	it's the gospel truth!

	OK, lets assume we've completed framing our model, up to the point of
	finish (final) sanding, and we've done a proper job of building; no
	huge gaps, cracks, etc.  To take care of the few unavoidable places
	requiring filler (and the inevitable hangar rash), I like to use DAP
	or Model Magic filler, the real fluffy consistency stuff.  It's easy
	to apply, EASY to sand and is light as a feather.  The best sanding 
	aid I've found is a NAKED 100 watt light bulb...check yer' work under
	this stark light frequently as you go and you'll pick out all the high
	and low glitches BEFORE you've cast them in concrete (glass cloth).

	Don't be afraid to use a heavy grit paper at the outset, it makes the
	job go faster/easier and allows you to better control the shapes yer'
	trying to achieve...just be careful as you go not to take TOO much
	off...it's lot's more difficult to add material back on than it is to
	take it off!  USE A SANDING BLOCK virtually EVERYWHERE; except for the
	tiniest nooks and crannies, the block can and should be used for every
	contour on the model...this allows you to keep all the curves constant
	and uniform and prevents you from sanding too much over formers and 
	ribs, giving the model that "starved horse" look. Progress to ever fin-
	er grits of sandpaper (I go clear down to 400-600) 'til the balsa has 
	a satiny feel to it and has an almost shiney "glow" to it.  NOW, and 
	only now are you ready to cover.

	Check things out one last time under the naked 100W light, filling any
	new or missed dings with DAP/Model Magic and we're ready to go.  ONE 
	MORE TIME...don't leave ANY gaps, dings, etc. 'til after covering; 
	they're a lot easier to deal with NOW!  

	Let's say we've got an open structure wing for this example.  I use
	Super Coverite for this kinda' structure.  I won't go into heavy de-
	tail as to the application as that's pretty well laid out in the in-
	structions provided with the material.  HINTS: Don't fret with pack-
	aging creases/wrinkles...they WILL come out!  Cut the piece GENEROUSLY
	oversize...this makes it much easier to handle.  Tack the material
	down a little at a time working first spanwise, then chordwise 'til
	the material is wrinkle-free (a few "minor" wrinkles won't kill you
	but DON'T depend on heat taking out MAJOR goofs!).  Now seal the mat-
	erial down all arount the perimeter...take care not to use too much 
	heat as the adhesive will become fluid and you'll have to clean this
	up later using dope thinner or equivalent. Keep an eye on the sole-
	plate of yer' iron and clean off the excess adhesive frequently.
	I do a wing in 4-pieces, bottom first, so the overlaps'll be on the 
	bottom.  Trim overlaps to about 1/4" and, to prevent subsequent heat
	applications from loosening the overlaps, I run a light bead of CYA
	along all seams. This is particularly important in areas with mini-
	mal surface contact area such as trailing edges.

	Now that the entire wing is covered, it's time to shrink it.  I play 
	the heat gun as evenly as possible from top-to-bottom surfaces of the
	wing, working from the center section out to the tip.  I reason that 
	this minimizes the possibility of pulling a warp into the structure.
	Use as little heat as is necessary, again to minimize/eliminate warp
	age.  Coverite will not sag or wrinkle in the sun if properly applied
	...it doesn't have to be tight as a drum-head - just taut.  With the 
	wing all covered and shrunk, put it aside in a safe/protected place
	and we'll glass the fuselage (Note: if you have an all-sheeted wing,
	the glass process used on the fuse will apply exactly to the wing.)

	I'll describe the glassing process using K&B polyester resin, but the
	process is virtually identical with epoxy resins except for cure-times.
	Materials needed: .6 or .75 oz. glass cloth (I prefer Dan Parsons .6
	oz. cloth; it's easier to work with and has NO snags or imperfections
	of any kind), suitable mixing containers (remember they must be resis-
	tant to the resin), some disposable (cheap) 1-2" wide brushes (you can
	pick these up fer' a song at the local Standard Brands or similar paint
	store, a roll of single-ply toilet paper, some "really" good scissors, 
	3/4" masking tape and some fresh/sharp single-edge razor blades.

	Cut a piece of cloth, generously oversize to permit easy handling, for
	the area you intend to cover...a fuselage can normally be covered using
	2-3 pieces. It really isn't necessary, but if you want the cut edges to
	be nice and straight and ravel-free, lay a piece of 3/4" masking tape
	on the intended cut, then make yer' cut with scissors and leave the 
	tape in place 'til after it's on the plane and the resin has cured.
	Now remember, I'm using polyester, so we must bear in mind that the 
	resin will "kick" in about 25 minutes and plan accordingly to be done
	before that happens.

	Drape the cloth over the area to be covered and temporarily tack in 
	place place (if necessary) with a little water.  Don't soak it, just
	"tack" it so it'll stay put while you mix yer' resin.  OK, mix the re-
	sin per the instructions and let's get with it.  Use the disposable 
	brush to tack the cloth in place lengthwise, then gently start pulling
	the cloth into position, top-to-bottom, tacking with resin as you go.
	You'll find that, once wet with resin, the cloth will go around some
	horrendous compound curves, IT'S AMAZIN'!  If you have a wrinkle no
	amount of fiddling will remove (these are rare), simply slice it with
	the razor blade as needed to make it lay flat.  Once everything is lay-
	ing nice and flat, flow the resin over the entire area (GENTLY so as
	not to disturb the cloth) and get ready to "blot" the excess resin.

	This is where the toilet paper comes in. (I prefer toilet paper to the
	squeegee method as the cloth moves readily at this stage and I don't
	know how you squeegee without disturbing it.)  Put a short length of
	broomstick or equivalent through the TP and we're set.  GENTLY roll
	the toilet paper (against the direction of the wrap so the paper does-
	n't unroll) over the wet resin, blotting up the excess and pressing
	the resin through the weave of the cloth into the bare wood below.
	In the beginning, you'll only be able to make about one pass before you
	have to peel off the resin-soaked TP and discard it.  Keep rolling-
	peeling-rolling-peeling 'til, before you know it (it doesn't take 
	long), the cloth will "appear" somewhat dry and have a sheen to it like
	a woman's panty-hose.  Now QUIT and leave it alone 'til the resin kicks
	...keep an eye on things 'til it does, dabbing out any wrinkles with
	the resin brush and/or wetting any too-dry spots and blotting with TP.
	
	With polyester, the resin will kick in a short time and become, for a 
	while, kinda' rubbery...THIS is the time to carefully remove the tape,
	if you used any when you cut the cloth.  I find the tape more trouble 
	than it's worth and don't use it, but that's your choice.  Epoxy resin
	will have to cure at least overnight (longer if it's cold) so you'll
	just have to wait.  (My observation/opinion is that this overly-long
	cure just gives too much time for something to slip, lift or for for-
	eign particles to settle into the resin...personal preference; I like
	the polyester, regardless of the smell.)

	If yer' using polyester, you can proceed immediately. Subsequent pieces
	are applied in identical fashion.  Allow a 1/4" to 1/2" overlap and
	don't be too concerned about the seams or lightly frazzled edges.
	After the entire fuse is covered, LIGHTLY knock off any loose frazzling
	with fresh medium-grade aluminum-oxide sandpaper...don't worry about
	any fibers that are well stuck in the resin. The cloth is VEERRRY fra-
	gile at this stage and can be too-easily sanded through so don't get
	carried away.  Excess cloth can be easily removed by sanding, e.g.
	against the edge of the wing saddle, around the engine cutout, etc.
	After 2-3, 4 pieces at the most, the fuse should be completely covered.

	This done, mix another batch of resin and flow it on just as wet as 
	possible without it running/dripping off.  Once completely cured, it's
	time to make this mess look like something. Starting with 80, "yes" 80
	grit aluminum-oxide sanpaper on a SANDING-BLOCK and working down to 
	ever finer grades, remove ALL the resin right down to the level of the
	cloth (it [the cloth] becomes difficult to see so be careful not to 
	sand through it). BTW, the reason I keep specifying aluminum-oxide 
	sandpaper is because it doesn't load up, hardly at all.  You can slap
	it against the side of the workbench and it's clean again.  Silicone-
	oxides work fair but flint and garnet papers are WORTHLESS for sanding
	resins.  The full name is open-coat, aluminum-oxide sandpaper: it's a
	pale whitish-gray in color and is more expensive than normal papers.
	PLEASE BELIEVE ME *IT'S WORTH EVERY PENNY IN LABOR SAVED* !!

	In a shorter time than you might expect, yer' done!  Whatta' beautiful
	job...take it out in the sun and it'll look like you shrunk a fiber-
	glass over it and, look closely..., amazin' ain't it?...all the seams
	and overlaps have vanished!!  My MiG-3 (75" span, 970 sq." wing-area)
	was complete to this stage in "one Saturday" (using polyester resin).

	OK, we've got the wing and fuse covered and ready for priming and pain-
	ting.  But, it's getting late, I'm hungry and half asleep so I'll leave
	it right here 'til next time.  We'll pick it up with priming and, since
	I'm scale oriented, maybw we'll talk a little about panel-lines, rivets
	and such.  Heck! Theres no law that sez' ya' can't put 'em on a sport
	ship...right?  Maybe you'd like to learn how and practice for that 
	"someday" scale ship!

	Hasta-luego, we'll see ya's Monday..., adios,	Al

    
    Al,
    	I really found your last reply informative, thanks. But I have
    a question that comes to mind after reading it. The fuse on the
    Aeronca is half sheet and half open frame. Can I successfully blend
    Coverite for the aft section, and glass for the nose section without
    running into some strange problems at the interface? The iron on
    coverings are enought fun to work with on a sheeted surface without
    trying to curve them in three directions at once!!!!
    
    	As for documentation, I may end up modelling the Aeronca as
    a "This is what my plane would look like if I had a REAL one" sort
    of scale, and save the "official documentation" effort for the 
    Doodlebug. However I think I'm going to need a couple more models
    and access to a lathe before I tackle that ship.
    
    Dan
    

Al, you commented earlier that you use automotive lacquers for
your finish.  This weekend, while I was drawing "painting
detail",  remembered a comment in some magazine about using latex
house paint for finishing -- anything to say about that?  It
might've been Al Alman, whose BIG birds could stand such a thing.
The stuff seems like it would be awfully heavy.

	re .-1


		You can certainly use gloss house paint, and
	it's fuelproof. But as you say it awfully heavy..

		I used it on the wings of my Acro-Wot when I 
	repaired it after the mid-air. I found it was the only
	paint that would go over Glascote without it going crinkly.
	Having stripped the solartex off the fuz, I didn't fancy 
	doing it to the wings aswell....


	bob

>    					.................The fuse on the
>    Aeronca is half sheet and half open frame. Can I successfully blend
>    Coverite for the aft section, and glass for the nose section without
>    running into some strange problems at the interface? The iron on


	* ABSOLUTELY! My Bucker "Junk"meister is done in that manner, glass
	nose/fabric aft fuselage.  I used a strip of 3/4" making tape around
	the fuse circumference at the rearmost edge of the balsa sheeting to
	keep a bonding area for the Coverite free of glass/resin.  After the
	glass was applied up to (slightly over) the tape, I sanded it normally
	then removed the tape using a single-edged razor blade to slice it away
	fron the glass.  Next balsa-rite was applied and the aft fuse was cov-
	ered and shrunk in normal fashion.  Prior to priming, I sealed the 
	Coverite-to-glassed balsa junction and all other Coverite seams with 
	CYA as a "heavy" application of epoxy primer can undermine the Coverite
	adhesive. From here, I simply primed/sanded/painted per usual practice. 
	The ol' Bucker is 6-7 years old now with "hundreds" of flights and 3
	minor prangs in its log book and all is still well so I recommend this
	technique without reservation.
    

> ........  I remembered a comment in some magazine about using latex
> house paint for finishing -- anything to say about that?.........
> The stuff seems like it would be awfully heavy.

>		You can certainly use gloss house paint, and
>	it's fuelproof. But as you say it awfully heavy..


	* I too have heard of this but only saw it used once; on an all-foam
	Sure-flight J-3 Cub...looked bad and was HEAVY!  It may be a viable
	material but (my opinion only) I think it should be left on interior
	and exterior walls which are not required to fly.

	Adios amigos,	Al

>	* I too have heard of this but only saw it used once; on an all-foam
>	Sure-flight J-3 Cub...looked bad and was HEAVY!  It may be a viable
>	material but (my opinion only) I think it should be left on interior
>	and exterior walls which are not required to fly.
>
>	Adios amigos,	Al

Got a log of flights out of my Sure-flight Cessna.
Do you think you could econocote the J-3?  The wing needs reinforcement
of some sort.  I know were painting here - but could you econocote the
J-3 Fuse or would you paint?  How do you prepare foam?

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    Most of the all-foamies I've seen (especially the nicer ones) were
    covered with one or the other of the low-temp plastic films.  There
    used to be a special primer available for prepping foam for paint
    but the name escapes me and, as I recall, it didn't work that well
    and is no longer available anyway.
    
    A buddy out on the east side did a pretty nice looking Sure-flight
    Spitfire for the warbird races we're trying to get started locally
    and he sprayed on Ceramcote (by Delta - paints for ceramics/plaster)
    directly over the foam.  He says it is not recommended for spray
    and, indeed, he had a lot of problem with clogging the gun, but
    it came out pretty nice...you can still see the foam but only up
    close.
    
    Adios, 	Al

    
    Al, a couple notes back you mentioned sealing Coverite seams with
    CYA.  I don't think you can paint with dope over CYA, another good
    reason for epoxy primer.  Are there any adhesives that you
    know of that are not compatible with epoxy primer?  With
    automotive lacquers?  Do you have to make sure there is primer
    between the CYA and the lacquer (since you mentioned sanding most of
    the primer off).
    Thanks -
    
    Bill

>         Hmmm... painting models!!  Since we have been on the subject I 
>         would like to take the opportunity ask a question for all those 
>         veteran modelers that have tried all the routs.
>            I understand (recollection from an old RCM magazine) that 
>         Rust-Oleum Brand paint(out of a spray can) is fuel proof.  The 
>         product sprays nice and consistently, comes in a wide variety of 
>         gloss colors, and if it IS fuel proof, might be a good alternative 
>         for those that want a painted finish but aren't interested in 
>         flipping the bill for a compressor, spray gun/air brush and the 
>         rest of the paraphernalia required to spay those finishes that 
>         look so nice.
>            I know of several people that have used Formula U paint(out of 
>         a spray can and the brush type) and some colors seems to hold up 
>         O.K. but others leave their mark on the cleaning rag in the form 
>         of a light residue of the particular color.  To my knowledge these 
>         colors are yellow and white, but there may be others as well.  
>         I've also tried the Black Baron one part epoxy paint, and that 
>         also soften up when exposed to fuel.  This is why I'd like to look 
>         into the Rust-Oleum or any other paints out of a spray can.  Has 
>         anyone had any experience with it?? or perhaps know someone that 
>         has?
         
>         Thanks for any input,
         
>         Brian Jorgensen


	*  Brian, I prefer to respond to yer' question under this masthead
	since it is precisely what this discussion is all about.

	I've seen a few very nicely done paint jobs done with Rust-Oleum but
	have no personal experience with it.  Can any other noters add any-
	thing beyond the fact that it "looks good?"  I no nothing regarding
	it's resistance to raw fuel or fuel residues.

	It's not uncommon for many of the model finishes to leave a little
	color tint on the clean-up rag but, frequently, this is more due to
	the type of cleaning solution being used than to some inadequacy of
	the paint.  Harsh cleaners like 409 and Fantastik are well known to 
	cause what you described.  I use a solution of water, Dawn dish soap
	(because of its grease-cutting qualities) and a dash of Isopropyl al-
	cohol (as a drying agent) and have observed no problem on my Formula-
	U Yellow Jungmeister in well over 6 years of service.

	I've neither seen nor heard much good about Black Baron Epoxy(?) paint
	locally.  The silver is particularly bad about softening and coming off
	once raw fuel and fuel residues get to it.  Frankly, due to the very
	definition of epoxy, I don't know how they (Coverite) can claim their
	paint is a "one-part" epoxy...I don't honestly believe there is such a 
	thing. 

	K&B 2-part epoxy paints might as well be porcelain....once cured. Abso-
	lutely nothing touches it...it's "everything-proof," maybe even bullet
	proof!!

	The Ditzler acrylic lacquers (automotive paint) I've become fond of
	using are fuel resistant but NOT fuel proof.  However, this is of no 
	consequence as I simply spray on a finish coat of K&B epoxy clear 
	(gloss or satin as the model requires) and, Voila! it's bullet proof!
	This technique could certainly be used to fuel-proof virtually ANY
	type of paint...I'm not aware of it being incompatible with any type
	of paint, with one exception: it "will" go over uretahne-base paints
	Formula-U, RS Perfect Paint) BUT it must be "misted" on to prevent
	an undesireable reaction.  Urethanes will go over almost anything but
	almost nothing will go over urethanes except for more urethane.

	Adios,	Al

>    Al, a couple notes back you mentioned sealing Coverite seams with
>    CYA.  I don't think you can paint with dope over CYA, another good
>    reason for epoxy primer.  Are there any adhesives that you
>    know of that are not compatible with epoxy primer?  With
>    automotive lacquers?  Do you have to make sure there is primer
>    between the CYA and the lacquer (since you mentioned sanding most of
>    the primer off).
>    Thanks -
    
>    Bill

	* Bill..., As far as I've experienced, K&B epoxy primer will go over
	virtually anything.  But, if yer' repairing a model finished with a
	urethane-base paint (Formula-U, RS Perfect Paint), the primer "can"
	get to the feathered edges of the paint and must be applied carefully
	in this one event (see -.33).  Even then, it "can" be done...I have to
	do it infrequently when I have to patch or repair my old jungmeister 
	which is finished with Formula-U. Other than this one "minor" instance,
	K&B primer readily goes over anything!  And ANYTHING will readily go
	over K&B primer so it can be used as a finish base for absolutely ANY
	kind of paint.

	The ONLY adhesive-to-finishing material incompatibility I've run up 
	against (or have knowledge of) is that, polyester resin doesn't like
	epoxies or epoxy-based fillers (like SIG Epoxy-lite).  It simply takes
	eons to finally cure in areas over epoxy materials.  The solution is
	deceptively simple, however: Don't use epoxy in places where it's like-
	ly to be exposed in the form of a surface joint or filled area like
	fillets.

	I've never done anything out of the ordinary to CYA joints, seams, etc.
	I merely go on with the priming/sanding process and things take care of
	themselves.  As far as dopes or other paints not sticking to CYA's, I
	know of no inherent incompatibilities here...I suspect the problem is
	more related to the non-porous nature of CYA in that it provides little
	(if any) "tooth" for the paint to cling to so it has a tendency to 
	"flow away" from the CYA, kinda' like "fish-eyeing."  A little sanding
	(certainly some priming) completely remedies the situation.
	
	When I put together the next installment on my favorite finishing me-
	thod, maybe some of these things will become clearer or self-explana-
	tary.

	Adios,	Al

    	I used to be in U/C long ago with desires to get into RC but
    due to several things never did. I recently added this conference
    to my note book and have been "catching up" on the changes of the
    past 20 or so years. God is it that long ago? Anyway, I have since
    become involved with model RailRoading and felt that a few things
    I learned from there could help here. So....
    
    	I don't know about Arizona but up in this area I would stonghly
    sugest using a moisture trap in the air line. It really messes up
    the finish on HO (1/87) stuff and probably wouldn't help in 1/4
    scale either. RR have been using color over mask for a long time
    and it works extremly well.
    
    	If you know someone in the airconditioning business you can
    get a used freon tank for nothing or next to it anyways it makes
    a great storage tank or smoother when used with a compressor. I
    have a compressor attached to one of these and regulate the pressure
    with a valve, also have a power cut off so the compressor doesn't
    flog itself to death. A check valve should be installed if you add
    the cut out switch otherwise you could bleed off presure back through
    the compressor.
    
    	For a discussion on airbrushes look into the RR notes and do
    a DIR/title=airbrushes or if you want I'll move that note topic
    over here as a new note - its fairly long and goes into compressors
    etc. I have a Thayer-Chandler that is great its doubleaction, easy
    to use and does a fine job. T-C has several air brush models that
    are a bit more expensive that badger's but these are artist quality
    from an established firm. ( mail to me will get copies of their
    broucher and price list)
    
    	I don't know how RR paints would react with dope/epoxy paints
    but they go on THIN and cover well. You might consider them for
    detail/insignia work etc. Thre is a wide range of strange color
    names to choose from.
    
    	Happy spraying
    	Art

    	A couple of corrections and some more info:
    
    	I exited and got the node name and note numbers from the railroad
    file- OPUS::RAILROAD is the file and the notes are 640 and 422 the
    dir statement will yeild nothing; sorry about that but I coulda
    swore it was airbrushes. Its hell to get old first something goes
    and then..
    
    	In the reply I noticed it listed my node as a number. You can
    get at me at JUNIOR::NEWBERY if you wish. 
    
    	Now where are those directions to Shrewsbury Field ??
    
    Regards
    	Art

    	If everybody's ready, here's the final chapter in my painting
    	method:
      
    	Before we move on, let's condider, for a moment, just what we've accom-
	plished thus far.  While our wing and fuse are covered with different 
	materials, we've still accomplished, basically, the same thing:  we've
	sealed the bare-wood structure and established a "base" upon which to
	"really" prep for painting.  Look at the fuselage closely...even though
	we've effectively encapsulated it in fiberglass, close examination will
	reveal that some degree of cloth weave and wood grain may still be vis-
	ible. To a similar (if lesser) extent, the same may be true of the Cov-
	erited wing surfaces.

	OK, let's proceed to prime the model.  I prefer to spray the primer on
	using a small automotive touch-up gun. A good airbrush set-up will work
	OK but, due to the finer spray, it's a slower process.  In any case, I
	prefer to spray rather than brush as you apply less material, more uni-
	formly, thus reducing the amount of required sanding.  If you must 
	brush, keep the primer mixture thinned enough to minimize brush marks,
	especially over open structure, as these will have to be sanded out.

	Also, before we start mixing, let me just say that I've seen some nice
	jobs done by using spray-cans of gray automotive primer from this stage
	outward but I've always felt this provides a "soft" finish.  AND, you 
	must be careful what kind of primer yer' using, i.e. is it lacquer, 
	enamel, acrylic or ???? based primer and will it be compatible with
	yer' intended paint??  I prefer to avoid the questions (risks) and just
	use K&B 'cause I KNOW it's compatible with ANY paint I may intend to 
	shoot over it.

	Let's mix...K&B primer is NOT critical to mix; you won't need a precis-
	ion scale or the like.  I use an old set of "metal" measuring spoons to
	measure the primer (part-A) and hardener (part-B) in equal (1:1) parts.
	CAUTION:  You MUST use the hardener (part-B) specifically for primer!!
	The hardener for the color paints WILL NOT WORK !!!

	OK, we've mixed the primer (1:1)...looks THINNNN, doesn't it?  Don't be
	fooled for a moment, IT WILL FILL! Now, for spraying, thin this mixture
	by 50% with K&B thinner, mix well and pour into your spray gun.  Adjust 
	the spray pattern down fairly fine and begin spraying onto the model.
	Don't try to get solid white coverage in one coat...the stuff WILL run.
	Just keep going around the model from starting-to-ending points 'til 
	you have a nice uniform coat of snowy white primer.  Now allow to cure
	(depending on temp. & humidity, 1-2 hours).

	Now, SAND IT ALL OFF leaving just the slightest milky patina overall.
	The only place(s) we want to see solid-white is in the wood-grain and/
	or any minor dings or low-spots.  Now, on the wing, you can't be quite
	as energetic with yer' sanding of the fabric over the open structure,
	especially where it abuts sheeted structure...you'll sand through the
	fabric and be pretty annoyed with yer'self, so BE CAREFUL! 

	My personal opinion is that any fabric covered area(s) should LOOK
	fabric covered so I make NO attempt to completely fill the weave of the
	Coverite over open structure...1-sprayed coat of primer does it.  If 
	additional filling is required over the sheeted areas (leading/trailing
	edges, center sections, etc.), I'll brush the subsequent coat(s) on,
	omitting the open structure.

	If you did yer' pre- and post-covering sanding adequately, you should
	be completely filled in one coat of primer, two at the very most.  Any
	more than this merely "adds un-necessary weight" and yer' likely trying
	to fill, with primer, flaws that "should" have been taken care of BE-
	FORE you covered the airframe when it could easily have been done with
	DAP/Model Magic filler.

	Incidentally, if you are wondering why I've said nothing about wet-san-
	ding, there's a good reason for that: wet-sanding cuts very fast and 
	the resulting opaque slurry of water and primer dust makes it impossi-
	ble to keep track of how deep yer' cutting with the sandpaper and you 
	DON'T want to cut into the cloth at this stage.  I DO wet-sand at the 
	later/last stage of sanding but, if you try it, be VERRRY  careful and
	wash the surface FREQUENTLY to keep tabs on where you are!

	Now, use that naked 100W bulb to see where things stand.  If you see 
	quite a bit of grain or low-spots, another coat of primer and sanding is
	probably in order...if only a few flaws are observed, hit 'em with a 
	brush and spot-sand 'em smooth.

	Wanna' try a panel line or two?  There are two basic methods for doing
	this: 1.) use 1/64th drafting tape, prime over it, sand lightly and 
	paint (simplest but least realistic method), OR ...2.) draw on the pan-
	els with soft-lead pencil, lay masking tape along the panel line and
	brush primer up to the tape, when cured, sand primer down to tape while
	feathering into surrounding area, pull tape and, Voila!...you have a
	nice clean panel line.

	Now, you want some rivets around the panel line(s)?...simple: obtain a
	small hypodermic syringe and grind the sharpened point flat.  Now fill 
	the syringe with white glue (Elmer's), thinned with water if necessary,
	Practice on some scrap 'til you get the "feel" for putting down uni-
	formly sized glue-dots, then apply to the airplane.  Once dry, a VERRRY
	light sanding will finish the job.  A toothpick dipped in white-glue
	can also be used but is less convenient and a little slower.  It's not
	necessary to prime the rivets.

	OK, we're ready for color, BUT FIRST...I always spray on a coat of sil-
	ver before going to the actual colors.  This has several benefits: 1.)
	the silver binds the whole effect together and allows you to see, for 
	the first time, how the finished job will look,  2.) Silver is just 
	about THE worst color for showing all the flaws you haven't noticed be-
	fore,  3.) if this is a scale ship, you now have a "metal" base to wea-
	ther through to,  4.) most importantly, especially over any open struc-
	ture, silver provides a barrier to ultra-violet rays and prevents the
	fabric from being rotted away from within (that's why ALL full-scale, 
	fabric-covered aircraft are undercoated silver prior to color paint),
	and  5.) this provides a uniform base over which to apply the color
	coats; fewer coats of color will be required and you won't be fighting
	light and dark spots.

	So, we've sprayed on a coat of silver.  More than likely, we'll now see
	some previously unseen flaws...check closely under the 100W bulb or 
	take the ship outdoors.  To take care of these, apply automotive glaz-
	ing putty (the red or gray stuff from the auto-paint house) with a 
	small pallet-knife (miniature putty knife), sand sooth and spot back in
	with silver to check yer' work.

	Once satisfied, we're ready to apply color, at last.  If this has soun-
	ded like a long, drawn-out process, try to believe me when I say it 
	goes pretty fast...my MiG-3 was completely primed and painted in barely
	a week of evenings and part of one Saturday.  This included all panel
	lines, rivets, insignia and weathering, plus the final overcoat of K&B
	satin clear.  As I said earlier, "I HATE TO PAINT!" but I found the 
	time/effort completely acceptable using this technique.

	Now for the color, and this shouldn't take long in the telling.  I or-
	dered my colors from Larry Wolfe's Jet Hangar Hobbies who mixed them
	to the FS numbers I'd provided.  The paint is Ditzler acrylic lacquer
	and I found it a delight to use.  (You needn't have yours custom-mixed
	if you can mix it yer'self or if yer' doing a flashy scheme on a sport
	ship...the Ditzler catalogs have "thousands" of colors to choose from.)
	I added some Southern R/C Products plasticizer to eliminate any chance
	of cracking, mixed it 3-parts thinner to 1-part paint, THAT'S RIGHT, 3-
	to-1, and the paint went on flawlessly, completely covering in 2-coats.
	Camouflage was drawn on with soft-lead pencil and easily applied using
	my Paasche air-brush.  Insignia were masked with a combination of clear
	shelf paper and liquid masking film, then shot with the air-brush. The
	best features of this paint are: 1.) it's CHEAP,  2.) you don't need
	much to complete even a large model, it covers so well,   3.) it han-
	dles much like dope (dries fast) but doesn't shrink hardly at all, and
	4.)  it sticks like iron and seems bullet-proof once dry.  Also, being
	a lacquer, it's a snap to do repairs and touch-ups with.

	And THAT, sports-fans, is just about the whole enchilada...save for the 
	weathering which was done mostly with 0000 steel wool, rubbing through
	to the silver undercoat, and using the air-brush to apply gun-burns, ex-
	haust stains, grease-smears, etc.

	Rather than get into any real detail regarding weathering, I'll leave 
	that subject for another time and say, as Sgt. Preston of the Yukon
	used to, "Well King, this case is closed!)

	Adios for now amigos,	Al

         Al,
         
         Thanks for the input on the Rust-oleum... Sorry it was in the 
         wrong section.
           
         I was curious as to why you prefer the lacquers as opposed to 
         the Acrylic enamels.  I've yet to spray a model, but I've 
         sprayed several cars with acrylic enamels, lacquers, straight 
         enamels, and urethanes and it would seem to me that the 
         Acrylic Enamels would be the best product for the job.?  I 
         also know that Dupont makes a flex additive for rubber 
         bumpers etc. that would perhaps be good for spraying the 
         covered open structure such as wings, built up tails and 
         other areas.  I also understand that the AE is fuel proof, as 
         apposed to the lacquer that doesn't resist fuel quite as 
         well.  When I do paint my first model, I think I discussed 
         this with you before, the one covered with mica film (which 
         by the way goes on quite nicely) I WILL be concerned with 
         weight.  Is there any difference in weight among the various 
         types of paint? I've got a Binks door jam gun that sprays 
         quite nicely with my homemade compressor.
         
         For those interested in making a compressor, I used a 
         horizontal type water tank, found at the dump, an old 
         Westinghouse 2.5 hp/220 vt motor and a pump that I broke down 
         and bought.  I guess it cost about $150 with the pump, 
         regulator and goodies; but once you have a good compressor 
         the uses are countless. 
         
         Back to the rust-oleum.  Thanks for the input, and any others 
         that can add there $.02. I'm still very interested in trying 
         it.  This is such a wonderful source of information.  Let's 
         keep it up.
         
         /Brian Jorgensen

>         Thanks for the input on the Rust-oleum... Sorry it was in the 
>         wrong section.

	* No problem Brian, I just wish I had more info to share with you.
           
>         I was curious as to why you prefer the lacquers as opposed to 
>         the Acrylic enamels....

	* I'm an old silk 'n dope man from back when that's all there was.
	I always liked almost everything about dope finishes, except for
	the folowing: it didn't cover too well, requiring TOO MANY coats of
	paint; it had a tendency to pull away from (bubble-up in) sharp inside
	radii/curves like wing-to-fuse, stab-to-fuse, and fin-to-stab junc-
	tions; and it never stopped shrinking, revealing, in time, all the
	surface joints you worked so hard to hide.  The good characteristics
	were that it was EASY to handle, dried FAST, sanded easily and fea-
	thered well, making repairs/touch-up easy.

	My observation/experience has been that acrylic lacquer retains ALL
	the properties I liked about dope while retaining virtually none of
	dope's bad characteristics: It covers well, doesn't pull away from
	fillets and exhibits minimal shrinkage...I LOVE IT!!  Quite
    	honestly, I've never tried acrylic enamel as I am, to date,
    	supremely satisfied with the lacquer.

>         ....... Is there any difference in weight among the various 
>         types of paint? ................
         
	* This is just personal opinion (gut-feel) based on logic...I have
	no documented evidence to support my position:  I've always felt
	that, due to the nature of the drying process, that is, the evapor-
	ation of solvents, dopes/lacquers have to be the lightest paints as
	they contain higher percentages of solvents than do other types of 
	paints, i.e. enamels, urethanes, epoxies.  My second choice would be
	epoxies since they are so densely pigmented that they can be thinned
	considerably and applied in a minimum number of coats.  Of course, 
	epoxies don't "dry"...they chemically cure with no evaporation of
	solvents, so weight "could" be a factor if one applied them indiscrim-
	nately.
	
>         Back to the rust-oleum.  Thanks for the input, and any others 
>         that can add there $.02. I'm still very interested in trying 
>         it.  This is such a wonderful source of information.  Let's 
>         keep it up.
         
>         /Brian Jorgensen

	* How about it noters...anyone have any additional information on the
	use of Rust-Oleum as a model finish?  As I've already replied, I've
	seen a couple of pattern ships done with it and they WERE pretty.  I
	have no knowledge regarding techniques, handling, fuel-resistance,
	however,...can someone enlighten Brian and myself??

	Gracias Brian and thanx fer' th' kind words..., adios,	Al

    	While looking for articles on Vacu-forming parts I stumbled
    across an article on Spray Guns and Compressors. It is/was in Fine
    Scale Modeler sept/oct 84. If anyone wants copies send mail to
    Junior::newbery with your mail stop and I'll send it along.
    
    	Also most hobby shops used to rent videos on Airbrushing and
    weathering. These are worthwhile to comical but then you can always
    learn something from them so they may be worth the price of the
    rental but not the cost of the tape. Airbrushing was generic and
    basic but had some good tips, weathering was useful for RR but may
    or maynot apply to RC Models.
    
    	Regards
    	Art

    Art,
    
    I always like to read anything/everything I can get my hands on
    regarding spray painting techniques, air-brushing in particular.
    I guess I'm not familiar with Fine Scale Modeler...what is it
    ...a mag or static/display models?                           
    
    In any event, I'd sure appreciate a copy of the article you mentioned
    if you don't mind.  My mail stop is: PNO-D7.
    
    Muchas gracias fer' th' input...adios,	Al Casey

    This is a great topic and Im sure alot of us are gaining some new
    found knowlege. I'm only up to note .32 but I have'nt seen this
    question asked yet, if it has, please pardon the repetition. has
    anyone ever done a checker board pattern? If so, please elaberate
    on the best way to acomplish this( paint, iron on film, paint on
    or under film,ect...) Thanks for any info.
                                                     Jim

    	Fine Scale Modeler is a bi-monthly (every other) magazine that
    has articles on how to do, modify etc all sorts of plastic kits
    for static display. I pick it up cause it relates in technique to
    the model rr side of me. 
    
    	If you see it on the rack it might be worthwhile just to scan
    the table of contents. The articles on Vacu forming may be usable
    for canopies and such on the scale birds. Again for techniques but
    necessarily a step by step.
    
	Al...  	Its in the mail.

    Regards
    Art

>    This is a great topic and Im sure alot of us are gaining some new
>    found knowlege. I'm only up to note .32 but I have'nt seen this
>    question asked yet, if it has, please pardon the repetition. has
>    anyone ever done a checker board pattern? If so, please elaberate
>    on the best way to acomplish this( paint, iron on film, paint on
>    or under film,ect...) Thanks for any info.
                                                     
	* Jim, 

	A checkerboard is not very difficult to do, but it's time consuming as
	it requires the pattern to be masked twice.  I'm talking paint here...
	while it "could" be done by cutting out squares of film, ironing them on
	over a base color, I feel you'd eventually have problems with the 
	squares lifting and coming off.  If you must use film, get a checker-
	board trim sheet of Monokote with the pattern pre-applied.

	And, you "could" cut out squares of masking tape, align them over the 
	base color and paint but this, too is tedious.

	Taping a checkerboard is not particularly tedious but it "does" take
	time and lots of tape.  First, spray on the base color and allow it 
	plenty of time (5-6 days) to "completely" dry.  (If using epoxies, 24
	hours will be plenty.)  Now, because it's easier to describe, let's say
	we want our checkerboard to have 3/4" squares (or any other width common
	to masking tape.) Using one strip of tape per row, tape over every-other
	vertical row of checkers.  Repeat the process for every-other horizontal
	row.  Seal the tape well using your thumbnail to "iron-down" the tape,
	being especially careful in the corners where the tape overlaps.  Anoth-
	er noter had a bang-up suggestion: take a small brush and seal around 
	the edges of the tape using the base color paint...this seals the tape 
	and, if it leaks, who cares...it's the same color as the base.

	Now, spray on the opposing color, let's say red for the example. When 
	the red's dry to the touch, but not "too" dry, still a little rubbery,
	CAREFULLY pull the tape.  What you'll have now is the base color (let's
	say yellow) with every other red checker in each row, horizontally and
	vertically...none of the red checkers will connect to each other. Again,
	allow plenty of time for the paint to dry/cure.

	Finally, tape over each row of red checkers, first vertically, then
	horizontally (or vice-versa...makes no difference).  Again, seal the 
	tape with your thumbnail followed by a little CLEAR this time.  Rem-
	ember, there's red under the tape now so if yellow were used again,
	and it leaked, it could leak into the red.  Now spray on the final 
	coat of red, allow to set-up and VERRRY CAREFULLY pull the tape reveal-
	ing the finished chekerboard.  You'll be tickled silly at the results.

	This "sounds" a lot harder than it really is...sit down at your desk,
	workbench or whatever and try taping up a sample, just pencilling in
	the squares. You'll see it "really" is quite simple.  Again, it just
	requires a little patience, as do most of the good things in life.

	Adios,	Al

    Sounds super Al and I cant wait to start, but unfortunatly, I'll
    have to cause the plane is'nt ready yet. Guess I'll use the time
    to practice. Tell me something, is there any other tape we can use
    other than masking that wont bleed paint as easy or is this asking
    to much? Thank so much for all the help, Ill let you know how I
    do and maybe send along a picture when I'm done.
                                              again, many thanks
                                                    Jim   

Well good things come to all who wait.  I scored myself a Miller
2000 airbrush compresser at the flea market yesterday for only
$10! Been looking for over a year...the last one I saw the guy
wanted over $100.

It was not pretty; it had been used in a garage to touch up
paint and was covered with grease.  Took it all apart and cleaned
and oiled it; runs like a champ now. 

However, my airbrush technique will require lots of work.  I was
trying to spray some 50% butyrate dope and had the gun clog up.
Did some mention that the dope should be cut two parts thinner to
one part color?  I didn't try that combination; is that correct
for general use?

I'm going to call Miller today and see if I can get some spare
parts for it.  

    Jim,
    
    There's a special vinyl masking tape made by 3M for automotive use
    thaat's being used in model applications, especially for taping
    fancy trim designs which require masking "outside" curves...you
    know what I mean?  (Draw a curve and mask the inside radius...no
    problem, the tape just kinda' bunches and folds over itself away
    from the masked edge....now, try to tape the same line, this time
    masking the "outside" radius.  You'll find it nearly impossible
    as the tape needs more length away from the masked edge and will tear
    if you try to force it.  It's difficult to explain...you'll have
    to try this little experiment to see what I'm trying to describe.)
    
    The solution has always been to use very narrow tape to mask this
    outside radius, then come behind it with sections of wider tape.
    The vinyl tape will stretch in this application, making it much
    easier to accomplish this difficult taping chore. 
    
    I doubt the vinyl tape seals any better.  In fact, I believe it's
    a "lo-tack" tape which is desireable to prevent pulling up base
    paint when pulling the tape.  Quite honestly, I've never found it
    necessary to do anything extraordinary to seal tape edges beyond
    "ironing" it down good with my thumbnail just prior to spraying.
    
    If you'd like to try the vinyl tape, you can get it from automotive
    paint stores.  I can't recall if it has a special name of some sort
    but it's made by 3M and is a very pale green in color.
    
    John,
    
    Lacquers of any type (dope, acrylics, etc.) can cause the clogging
    you describe...they dry so fast that they dry and build-up in the
    airbrush nozzle.  Normally, increasing the thinner-to-paint ratio
    will take care of the problem.  The automotive acrylic lacquers I'm
    fond of using must be mixed over 3-parts thinner to 1-part paint
    to spray correctly. Frequently, it's a trian-and-error process de-
    termining the proper mixture to use.

    
    I've used a different technique for outside curves of relatively
    small (1-3") radius and other patterns (such as stars) that are
    difficult to mask.  Basically it involves "building" the mask on
    a smooth table or glass plate, then stick it on the plane.
    	First, you trace the pattern onto a piece of paper large enough
    to handle the entire mask.  Now cut out the pattern about 1/8"
    oversize.  You don't have to be real careful cutting this out,
    just make sure it's at least 1/8" oversize wherever a masked edge
    will be.
    	Next, lay the paper on a sheet of glass and lay down wide masking
    tape (2" wide works good) over the paper.  Cover all cut-out areas
    with tape, sticking the tape right down to the glass.  If you need
    more than one width of the tape to cover large open areas, overlap
    each strip 1/16" or so.
    	Now you have to transfer the actual masking pattern to the
    tape.  For straight lines, like for a star, just lay the pattern
    over the tape (make sure you center it inside the pattern cut in
    the paper).  Now stick a pin through the pattern at each corner,
    remove the mask and cut straight lines from pinhole to pinhole in
    the tape with an exacto.  For inside and outside curves I use a
    compass with a sharp tip set to the correct radius - it cuts right
    through the masking tape if sharp enough.
    	What you should be left with is a duplicate of your pattern
    cut in masking tape, with about 1/8" of the sticky part of the tape
    exposed wherever a masked edge will be.  You just align it and stick
    it onto your plane, carefully press down all edges with your thumbnail,
    and spray.
    	I hope this isn't too confusing an explanation, it's a lot harder
    to describe than to do.  This whole procedure only takes a half
    hour or so once you get used to it.  I've built the entire mask for
    wings and tail surfaces of a .20-sized plane on glass this way, then
    just stick them on and spray!  Using the oversized cutout paper underneath
    keeps the amount of tape actually stuck to the plane at a minimum
    and helps prevent pulling up old paint when you remove the mask.
    	I haven't read back through the replies to see if a similar
    procedure is already described.  Sorry if this is redundant!
    
    Bill

    RE:-.51
    
    This is a good technique but I assume you mean to actually make
    the paper part of the mask a little "undersize,' not oversize, so
    you only have about 1/8" of tape sticking to the aircraft, thereby
    minimizing the amount of tape contact and eliminating the possibility
    of pulling up paint when the tape is removed.                 
    
    Another method for doing this would be to spray on liquid masking
    film and, once dry, gently drawing on the design and lightly cutting 
    it out with a SHARP knife or scalpel.  Then you simply use the ball
    of yer' thumb or finger to "roll" off the unwanted film and paint. 
    Once the paint is dry, merely "roll" off the remaining masking film
    and yer' done (with the smallest resulting masking ridge you'll
    ever see).
    
    Yet another technique is to use clear, self-adhesive shelf paper
    in a similar fashion to the method Bill described in -.51. Again,
    however, you should only expose the adhesive 1/8" or so along the
    intended mask edge to prevent the material from sticking so well 
    that paint is pulled up when the mask is removed.
                           
    Adios,	Al

    
    	When masking a wing I have found two things that work for me.
    To start I use regular striping tape 1/4 for my initial mask. To
    this I add as needed news paper with a strip of masking tape. 
    
         Now for the two methods.  First I spray the taped edge with
    the same color that is the base under my masking tape. This serves
    to seal any arear that would otherwise bleed through. Secondly 
    after I have painted with the contracting color I let it set up
    for about fifteen minutes and then remove my masking tape (completely 
    including the striping tape).
                                                         
    
    
    							Tom

         In case anyone wonders if this file is being used, I can reply
    from my own experience.  I am building a new chopper and on of my
    weakest points in model building has been painting.  (My strongest
    point is crashing.)  I am in the process of doing the canope and
    fins, and two tricks that I am trying are covering all but 1/8 to
    3/16 inch of the edge of masking tape so that it will not pull the
    paint underneath off and sealing the mask with clear so that the
    paint will not bleed under the edge of the mask.  Al, I am also
    using a liquid mask to sharpen up corners, and fill in small areas
    that the tape/newspaper does not cover.  I am real anxious to see
    the results, but that will probably not be until  the weekend.
    
    Ken

    Ken,
    
    Glad to hear yer' getting some use from the tips presented in this
    topic.  By all means let us all know how you make out...any refinements,
    improvements and/or additional suggestions would benefit subsequent
    users of the techniques.  G'luck!
    
    Adios,	Al

>    Glad to hear yer' getting some use from the tips presented in this
>    topic.  By all means let us all know how you make out...any refinements,

By the way.  I fiberglassed for the first time the other day and the
toilet paper trick was really neat.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Great Kay,
    
    How'd ja' like the glass process as a whole?  I know it's a little
    messier than some other methods but it "really" isn't very difficult
    and you should've been very pleased with the result.  Just don't
    forget to sand the resin nearly all off...2-coats (1 to apply the
    cloth and a second to seal) should be plenty.  Also, don't shortcut
    on the sandpaper...aluminum oxide will cut the resin with a minimum
    of loading up and is WELL worth the extra initial expense in time,
    energy and aggravation saved.  In a pinch, silicon carbide paper
    will work "fairly" well but is inferior to the alum. oxide...avoid
    any other type of paper like the plague as it'll make the job LOTS
    harder and will frustrate the H*** out of ya'.  Don't be afraid
    to start with coarser grits to do the initial resin cutting, then
    work down to ever finer grits to finish right down to the level
    of the cloth...just try not to cut into the cloth.
    
    Adios,	Al

    I should clarify that using the toilet paper method to blot up excess
    resin when applying glass cloth precludes the need to sand this
    first coat at all, with the possible exception of some VERRRY light
    sanding around overlaps or other slightly rough areas...just don't
    get into the cloth!  After the entire model is glassed, a second
    "pretty wet" coat of resin is applied and "this" is the coat to
    grind off clear down to (but NOT into) the layer of cloth.
    
    At this time, overlaps etc. should be virtually invisible to sight
    and touch.  Now apply the primer coats (2 should be MORE than enough)
    sanding both coats right back down to the glass layer level...this
    leaves the primer in only those low areas where it's needed, saving
    GOBS of excess weight.  Just spray on the silver undercoat, rework
    any bad spots with glazing putty, spot the reworked areas back in
    with silver and yer' all set for yer' color coats.  An average .40-.60
    size ship should pick up less than 6-8 ounces to this point.
    
    Adios,	Al

    Sorry Al, but I disagree with your method. It's messy, slow and
    time consuming. Lets have a discussion on fiberglassing methods.
    
    					Tom

>    How'd ja' like the glass process as a whole?  I know it's a little

A lot of work - but I thought I needed it for strength.  I didn't like the
varying quality of the wood on the fuse sides and the soft leading edge on the
wings.

Don't yell at me now - but I don't intend to paint this one.  It's getting
ultracote over the Fiberglas.  I don't own spray equipment yet and don't
want too many variables at once.

>    messier than some other methods but it "really" isn't very difficult
>    and you should've been very pleased with the result.  Just don't
>    forget to sand the resin nearly all off...2-coats (1 to apply the
>    cloth and a second to seal) should be plenty.  Also, don't shortcut
>    on the sandpaper...aluminum oxide will cut the resin with a minimum
>    of loading up and is WELL worth the extra initial expense in time,
>    energy and aggravation saved.  In a pinch, silicon carbide paper
>    will work "fairly" well but is inferior to the alum. oxide...avoid
>    any other type of paper like the plague as it'll make the job LOTS
>    harder and will frustrate the H*** out of ya'.  Don't be afraid
>    to start with coarser grits to do the initial resin cutting, then

I starting sanding with aluminum oxide last night.  Wow is that stuff hard.
I couldn't get smooth several places without cutting thru the cloth.  Also 
I generally couldn't tell when I reached the cloth - only when I reached the
balsa.  I started with a sanding block of 1/2"x3" balsa sanding block and
couldn't make any progress sooooo I started getting on it with my craftsman
orbital sander.  After two hours of sanding I've finished the 1st pass on the
fuse and wing.  Still have wheel pants and canopy cover to go.

>    work down to ever finer grits to finish right down to the level
>    of the cloth...just try not to cut into the cloth.

I'm glad I did it so far cause I want to do a good job on a future more
serious attempt.  BUT...  Am I sick of sanding.

Anxiously waiting to here Tom's easy way.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Tom,
    
    That's what makes us great, the right to disagree/dissent.  If you've
    got an easier method of applying a glass finish base, I'll be the
    first on to plagiarize it!  By all means, let's have a discussion
    on methods for applying glass cloth...ya' wanna' do it in this topic
    or start a new one??  If we start a new one, maybe we should move
    all glass related replies from this topic to the new one...whatcha'
    think???
    
    Adios amigo,	Al

>Don't yell at me now - but I don't intend to paint this one.  It's getting
>ultracote over the Fiberglas.  I don't own spray equipment yet and don't
>want too many variables at once.

	* SHEEEESH! You've already done all the really hard work...seems a
	shame not to follow through and prime/paint it.  Don't ya' have an
	R/C buddy who might be convinced to lend ya' his spray-rig??

>					.............Wow is that stuff hard.
>I couldn't get smooth several places without cutting thru the cloth.  Also 
>I generally couldn't tell when I reached the cloth - only when I reached the
>balsa.  I started with a sanding block of 1/2"x3" balsa sanding block and
>couldn't make any progress sooooo I started getting on it with my craftsman
>orbital sander.  After two hours of sanding I've finished the 1st pass on the
>fuse and wing.  Still have wheel pants and canopy cover to go.

	* I assume you mean the resin's hard, not the sandpaper.  Did you use
	epoxy or polyester resin?  The polyester sands much easier, in my
	opinion.  Also, how coarse a grit did you start with?...it's not unusual
	to start out as coarse as 80 grit for the first rough pass, then working
	down to the ever finer grits.  Yeah, it's hard to see where the cloth is
	...all I can say is that neatness in applying the cloth and resin will
	help to reduce the amount of heavy sanding required, thereby reducing 
	the risk of cutting into the cloth.

	Unless it involves a large area, don't bother trying to patch the cut-
	through area(s) with more cloth...it isn't worth the effort.  Just brush
	on more resin and feather-sand it into the surrounding surface.

>I'm glad I did it so far cause I want to do a good job on a future more
>serious attempt.  BUT...  Am I sick of sanding.

>Anxiously waiting to here Tom's easy way.

	* After reading Tom's method using K&B (or, I suppose, Hobbypoxy) clear,
	it sounds like there's a potential there to eliminate or reduce a lot 
	of the sanding toil...I may try it.

	Adios,	Al

From:	RUTLND::JONEILL       8-OCT-1987 05:13
To:	16400::CASEYA
Subj:	painting 

   Al, 
      I hope you don't mind my writting you but I need some help with
      a recent problem and I did'nt want to wait for someone go back through
      the notes file and hopefuly notice a new reply, it does'nt seem
      that many people do as the number of replys does'nt often increase
      on old notes as they do for new topics. Anyway, my question conserns
      the use of preprimed mica film and formular U paint.I bought the stuff
      ( pre primed ) because it is advertized as being paintable and already
      primed, I did'nt realize how hard it is to work with till after I 
      bought it but suffered through and managed to cover the areas I wanted
      to paint. After masking off the rest of the wing I proceeded to paint
      the area with light coats letting them dry between each. The painting
      is being done in a New England cellar thats dry but not heated. I cant
      tell you what the temp is, I have'nt checked, but it's still comfortable
      enough to wear just a T shirt ( unless it cools off to much at night).
      Last night I went down to mask off some of the painted areas to spray
      another color and when I repositioned the tape, the first coat of paint
      lifted off in big sheets. Any ideas as to what I did wrong? Sorry if 
      this note appears vauge, I have'nt much time to write.Hopefuly I've
      given enough info to get your ideas, any help would be appreciated.
                                                 
                                                       Jim

Jim,

Sorry to hear of yer' difficulty...I 'KNOW" how aggravating/frustrating that can
be!  I have no personal experience or even second-hand knowledge of the idiosyn-
cracies of pre-primed Coverite but I do know a little about Formula-U and, per-
haps can "wing" some suggestions.

About Formula-U:  First, I DON'T LIKE IT or any other poly-urethane base paint.
(the only other model brand I know of is Chevron, nee RS, nee Perfect.)  Why??
because it doesn't exhibit a great deal of adhesion; it's VERRRY finicky about 
what will go over it (virtually NOTHING except more poly-urethane); and it's
very difficult to make repairs with/over due, in part to the above and, in part,
to the fact that it's nearly impossible to "feather" into a repaired area or 
even into itself in oversprayed areas.  It's just possible that part of yer'
problem lies in the paint itself.  I know...it looks pretty right out of the can
but, skunks are pretty too!  I used Formula-U on the ol' "Yeller' Peril" and I
swear, I'll NEVER use it again, PERIOD!

As to pre-primed Coverite:  As I said at the outset, I have no working knowledge
of this material.  But, if we can make the assumption that the primer is of a 
fairly conventional-type, maybe we can make an educated guess or two.  The most
important requirement for any paint to stick, especially the poly-urethanes, is
"tooth!"  Tooth is defined as minute, almost microscopic, roughness of the sur-
face intended to be painted.  Without this "tooth," you might as well be trying
to paint a sheet of glass...yes, it can be done but it's difficult and requires
special techniques/materials if the finish is to be permanent.  What I'm driving
at here is; did you prep the primered surfaces by sanding with ~400 paper??  If
not, there's one more contributor to yer' grief.

As to masking tape:  The best, most ideally applied paint job "can" be ruined by
improper taping techniques.  No paint I no of will tolerate the aggresive, life-
or-death "tack" of the average masking tape...not for long anyway.  A day WILL
come when you pull up paint using common, everyday tape.  You can do a number of
things to protect yer'self against this gruesome occurrence:

	1. Try to obtain "LOW-TACK" masking tape.  Several manufacturers make it
but you'll have to go somewhere like an automotive paint store to find it.  3-M
makes a variety of this stuff in various widths from 1/8" up; it's pale-green in
color and comes packaged in a sealed plastic bag.  

	2. If you can't find the low-tack tape, "de-tack" the regular "gorilla-
grip" stuff by dragging yer' thumb over the length of the tape's adhesive side 
`til you've killed some of the stick (surely you've noticed how tape doesn't 
stick worth a d**n once you've handled the adhesive side...same principle). 

	3. Tape the smallest area possible, i.e. use 1/8" tape to lay out the
taped design, then come behind it with newspaper taped to the 1/8" stuff.  The
less painted surface you have covered with tape, the FAR less likely you'll be
to pull up paint when you remove it.  The safest tape is  NO-tape, i.e. liquid
masking film...it's a little fussier to use but you'll NEVER pull up paint with
it!

I hope something in this response helps you over the stumbling-block you've en-
countered.  I realize yer' probably committed to the poly-urethane paint at this
stage but, persevere using some/all of the above tips and you'll overcome the 
problem with a head full of better ideas.techniques for next time.  Since both
yer' question and this reply contain good general-interest items, I'm gonna'
put them both in topic 288, LET US SPRAY..., hope you don't mind.  Incidentally,
I check ALL new notes several times daily so it's not likely I'll miss a new
question, even in an older topic. Feel free to put yer' questions in NOTES....
I don't mind responding personally but it saves me the step of adding the ques-
tion/answer back into the conference.

Good luck and please let me know how you come out..., adios	AL

    Al,
    I did complete the paint job on the chopper, and I have to say that
    it is not perfect, but it is the best paint job that I have ever
    done on a model.  I can thank the tips in "LET US SPRAY".
    Thanks,
    Ken

A source for low-tack tape that I haven't seen mentioned yet
is drafting supply stores. They've got a special tape for taping vellum
drawings to drafting tables. Looks just like ordinary masking tape except
but it's real easy to pull off.

GES

    Ken,
    
    Great!!  It's onward and upward from here.  No one can reasonably
    expect perfection the first time out, even if he tries to follow
    all the instructions to the letter.  Like anything else, there's
    a learning curve involved and results improve dramatically with prac-
    tice and experience.  To achieve "the best paint job I've ever done"
    on the first outing with new techniques is VERRRY acceptable.  I'm
    really tickled that you and several other noters are actually trying
    the methods described in this discussion and am gratified to hear
    yer' getting good results from them.
    
    Gracias amigo and adios,	Al

    Re: -.66
    
    Thanx a million fer' the memory jogger...I'd totally forgotten about
    the low-tack tapes available from art and drafting supply stores.
    
    Appreciate the input very much..., adios, 	Al

    Good observation, Dan,
    
    Seems like there're always tradeoffs to contend with (There just
    ain't no free lunch).  As you suggest, extra care is required to
    assure that the tape edges are sealed but this isn't too much to
    have to contend with, given the alternative of pulling sheets of
    paint up with aggresively tacky tape.
    
    One way around this is to go ahead and use the super-sticky stuff
    but only in 1/8" widths, taping yer' newspaper (or whatever) to
    the 1/8" stuff.
    
    Gracias,	Al

re  Note 288.71 by JOULE::SNOW >

>    Okay, I give up! Are the directions for using K&B's polyester resin
>    written on the can in invisible ink? 

Somewhere on the can it says 8 to 10 drops of catalyst per ounce.
It's on the big can - really.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Re: -.71/.72/.73,
    
    I'm reasonably sure Kay's right about the 8-10 drps per oz.  I'd
    recommend trying the low-side (8 drops per oz.) first to achieve
    a reasonable pot-life before the resin "kicks."  In any event, even
    if the directions on the can are not specific, it "does" mean per
    oz.
    
    Adios,	Al

    I have a question concerning a painted area and where it meets a
    plastic covered section (monokote, ect.). I realize this joint should
    be sealed but with what?
                                                      thanks in advance

    Jim,
    
    K&B or Hobby-Poxy clear epoxy is probably yer' best bet.  Clear
    epoxy will go over literally "anything" and is commonly used to
    seal the overlapped seams of plastic-film coverings, a-la Mono-
    Kote.  Be sure to use the gloss, not the satin, hardener so the
    finished gloss of the clear matches the paint/film gloss.
    
    Carefully apply it to the seam between paint and film with a small
    brush and it should be virtually invisible.  If you have one, I'd
    suggest using an airbrush in place of the brush but be careful to
    control the overspray.
                                                             
    Adios,	Al

    Jim,
    
    Let me clarify that I'm *not* referring to epoxy "adhesives" like
    the 5-min, 30-min variety.  While these would certainly seal the
    paint/film seam, it would be difficult to achieve a reasonable looking
    job owing to the thickness/viscosity yer' dealing with.
    
    I'm referring to the 2-part, clear epoxy "paint," sold by K&B and
    Hobby-Poxy, which is used as a final seal coat over painted surfaces.
    Just thought I'd better make that "clear" so there'd be no misunder-
    standing.  (Pardon the pun.)
    
    Adios,	Al
    

    Hi, guys,
    
    Judging from the relative lack of recent activity in this topic,
    can I assume everyone's just painting away, happy as clams?  I'd
    sure like to hope so...with the winter building-season upon y'all
    back east, I can just see ya's cozied-up in yer' warm workshops
    creating next season's masterpieces and I hope many of you are 
    making the break and trying painted finishes as opposed to plastic
    films.  While I firmly believe films are probably "the" best covering
    to use on trainers and the first coupla' ships you build, there
    really just isn't any substitute for a painted finish to achieve
    that really first-class job we all dream of.
    
    One thing this topis is lacking is "feedback."  Lots of suggestions/
    advice have been given but relatively little feedback has been re-
    ceived telling us how you made out with a particular method/technique.
    I think it'd be "very" helpful to those contemplating a new technique,
    but not quite convinced to try it yet, to hear back from those of
    you who "have" tried and succeeded.   
    
    I know I'm that way, myself.  Just a few years ago I was scared
    to death to try glassing with .6 oz cloth and resin for fear I'd
    make such a horrible mess I'd have to scrap the airframe.  Finally,
    I dove in, kicked hard with both feet and stayed afloat, discovering
    that glassing was one of the easiest, trouble-free methods of preparing
    a finish-base I'd ever seen.  The point is, sharing yer' experiences,
    especially "first-time" experiences, may well help another fledgling
    over the hump toward discovering some of the really great finishing
    techniques that exist out there. 
    
    I know I'm still wide open to discovering new, faster/easier methods
    like Tom's use of K&B clear epoxy in place of polyester or epoxy
    resins so, by all means, let's keep the dialogue going by sharing
    our progress, even with tried and true methods that we assume everyone
    already knows.  I can guarantee that this conference is full of
    newcomers who've never even heard of silk `n dope.
    
    Adios,	Al

    
    Well Al, I finally got back to work on the CAP 21.  The wing is
    mounted, tail feathers sanded, cowl built.  I expect it will be
    several weeks before I'm ready for paint, but my plan is to cover
    it with Parsons' .6 oz cloth with epoxy, prime with hobby-poxy
    primer and paint with dope or maybe your recommended automotive
    paint.  I was so impressed with the durability of the epoxy-primed
    finish on some experimental scraps that I can't wait to try it
    on the real thing.
    
    Here's a question - I section off part of my work area with plastic
    sheet and vent it with a window fan when I spray.  It works great
    for keeping the fumes out of the house.  Inside the tent I wear a
    respirator made for laquer spray, and find that with a clean filter I
    can't even smell the fumes from the dope.  Any idea if this
    kind of respirator will work as well with epoxy paints?  Should
    I be looking for a better way of getting air to the lungs while
    spraying, such as a respirator with its own air supply?
    
    Bill

OK, I'll bite.  Funny you should talk about painting.  I was in
visiting my favorite model airplane junkie, Phlyin' Phil, just
this last weekend.  I needed a bottle of Corsair Blue butyrate
and asked him were it was.  He sort of gestured off into the
corner and remarked that he doesn't get back there too often
because nobody buys the stuff.  Signs of the times?

Anyway, as I've remarked elsewhere, I'm covering a model wing
with dress lining material.  I gave it one coat of full strength
nitrate, and two coats of 50% nitrate, with a little color.  My
plan was to spray the butyrate with my new handy-dandy spray
outfit.  I've had quite a bit of trouble with the rig, getting
the mixture of dope and thinner just right -- actually, the
airbrush I'm using, an el cheapo Badger (with the blue plastic
handle) has been very cooperative lately - I even sprayed some
Flecto Varathane on a couple of doors with it!

Anyway, I made two mistakes I'd like to report.  First one was
that I had a two-year can of acrylic lacquer thinner that I use
with the dope.  This was the end of the can, and I poured my dope
into the sprayer bottle, then added the thinner about 50%.
Couldn't figure why the gun wouldn't spray; it kept on clogging.
When I looked closer, I found that the dope had turned to little
stringy bits at the bottom of the sprayer bottle.  Took me a
couple of days to figure out what happened.  The bottom of the
thinner can contained all the water that condensed into the
thinner the last two years. It sunk to the bottom because it was
heavier than the thinner.  Good lesson, eh?

So, a new can of thinner, and the aforementioned visit to the
junkie, and I was back in business.  I mixed up another 50%
mixture and sprayed.  This time the color turned to stringy lines
and blotches on the wing.  Didn't take me too long to get the
idea. I reduced the thinner to about 1/3 mixture, and let it dry
a little bit better between coats.  Perfecto! Except for the
blotches left over from the previous spraying.  If  I were a Real
Boy Scout Modeller, I would have sanded the whole thing down with
wet/dry and redid the job.  But I'm not.

Finally, I have an observation: dope is heavy.  That wing was a
feather when I started, and after getting the color it was a
brick.  If I had started out with the proper mixture, I probably
wouldn't have had to put so many coats on to get the color (I
used the whole bottle on the top surface of the wing).

    I am preparing to jump in with both feet and cover my Tipo with
    .6 oz parson's cloth and Envirotex Epoxy.  I am fillowing Bill
    Lewis's progress with test samples to avoid pitfalls on the plane.
    My major hangup with painting is the lack of a ventilated heated
    area in my basement to paint without driving my family out of the
    house.  I'll try to give my feedback as I progress further.
    
    Charlie
     

    
    	CHARLIE!!!!!
    
    
    		Buy lots of sandpaper if your using EPOXY.
    You should really try using epoxy paint.
    
    						Tom

    
    At this point, I have the fuse and tail feathers of my new Trainer
    40 covered with 3/4 oz cloth and the first coat of Enviro-Tex epoxy.
    I plan to assemble the tail feathers to the fuse and then apply
    the second filler coat of enviro-tex this week-end. I have put the
    cloth and both coats on the center section of the wing, and it sands
    very well, provided you start with the reccommended 80 grit.
    
    Say Charlie, if you can come up with a paint that is as easy on
    the lungs as enviro-tex, let me know.
    
    Dan
    

>    Here's a question - I section off part of my work area with plastic
>    sheet and vent it with a window fan when I spray.  It works great
>    for keeping the fumes out of the house.  Inside the tent I wear a
>    respirator made for laquer spray, and find that with a clean filter I
>    can't even smell the fumes from the dope.  Any idea if this
>    kind of respirator will work as well with epoxy paints?  Should
>    I be looking for a better way of getting air to the lungs while
>    spraying, such as a respirator with its own air supply?
    
>    Bill

*  Understand first that I'm no doctor so my opinions/statements are totally un-
qualified from a medical posture.  To my best, immediate knowledge, the paint
which is potentially the MOST dangerous, healthwise when fumes are breathed in,
is DuPont Imron.  This stuff provides a "beeyootiful" deep-glossy finish which
always looks as if it's still wet but the fumes can cause severe and permanent 
damage to the respiratory system and, worse, it's cumulative...it stays in the 
body and increases in toxicity with each additional exposure.  Even professional
painters wear aspirated breathing apparatus (like SCUBA gear) when applying this
paint...filter masks WON"T cut it!  My "strong" advice is to leave Imron alone
unless you have access to pro-quality breathing apparatus.

I've never known of any lacquers being especially deadly, even if "no" mask is 
worn.  The effects are more to the nervous system and are degenerative(?)...the 
body easily rids itself of the pollutant(s).  A headache and/or slightly upset
stomach are the worst of the side effects but these are easily avoided by using
even a simple paper mask.  The mask you use sounds more than adequate to the 
task.  In younger years, I used to sorta' enjoy the "Dope-high" experienced when
painting with Butyrate and Nitrate Dopes but, with maturity (just recently ac-
quired), I've wised-up and use a double-filter type mask for "all" paints now-
adays.  The point is that no permanent or latent ill-effects were suffered as
a result of carelessly using Dopes.

Now, into the gray area of epoxies.  My gut feel, and that's "all" it is, is 
that epoxies are somewhat similar to Dope regarding side-effects to your health
though I wouldn't be surprised to learn that continued exposure without a filter
mask might be cumulative to some extent.  Read the label warnings and use a good
filter mask (like the one you described) and I'm confident you'll have no prob-
lems....."I" never have and I've used anything from a primitive paper mask to a
rather sophisticated double screw-on filter mask.

BTW, experiment with some Ditzler automotive acrylic lacquer...I think you'll
throw rocks at Dope once you've tried it.  It covers like a blanket and you need
only a very small quantity to do an entire airplane.  I painted the MiG-3 out of
3-pint cans (3-colors for the camouflage, y`know) and have "well" over half the
paint left.  Use "only" the Ditzler thinner made specifically for this paint and
mix 3-parts thinner to 1-part paint...you'll be amazed at the ease of applicat-
ion, coverage and easy handling.  If you have any open (fabric-covered) struc-
ture, I'd recommend purchasing some plasticizer from Southern R/C Products to
prevent cracking (I used it on the entire airframe of the MiG).  No change in
handling/application will be noted, whatsoever....you just add a teaspoon or so
per unthinned pint of paint.  What you'll love about this paint is that it han-
dles just like Dope (only better) but it won't shrink or blister away from fil-
lets like Dope does.

===============================================================================

> Anyway, I made two mistakes I'd like to report.  First one was
> that I had a two-year can of acrylic lacquer thinner that I use
> with the dope.  

*  John..., Part of yer' problem "may" be using acrylic lacquer thinner with 
Dope.  There could likely be "plastic" components in it that are not totally
compatible with Dope.  The "stringiness" you describe is a common result of
mixing non-compatible substances.  If yer' tryin' to save a buck, I'd recommend
acetone before acrylic...I do this frequently with no ill effects at all.

> Finally, I have an observation: dope is heavy.  That wing was a
> feather when I started, and after getting the color it was a
> brick.  

* Virtually "any" paint is heavy (especially the darker colors) but Dope is 
probably the lightest.  As you've already "doped"-out, the more coats, the more 
added weight.  That's what I like so much about the Ditzler acrylic lacquers...
it's so densely pigmented (unlike Kool-Aid consistency Dope) that one coat will
generally do the job, resulting in tremendous weight savings.

Adios amigos,	Al

re Note 288.84 by MAUDIB::CASEYA "THE DESERT RAT RC-AV8R" >
>...
>adays.  The point is that no permanent or latent ill-effects were suffered as
>a result of carelessly using Dopes.
>...
>Adios amigos,	Al
>
Well there is this small tendency to talk like a cowboy and decorate notebooks
with Russian coins - eh amigo :-)

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    
    	If the weight of paint is of great concern to you then this
    method may help. (It's a pain in the ass but it works) Block sand
    the finish colors with 400 wet/dry paper. Your intent is to remove
    1/2 to 2/3 of the paint thickness. When this step is finished the
    color will still be there but the surface will be dull. Now spray
    on one thinned coat of clear. THIN AND LIGHT. This will bring back
    the shine. The finished result will be a shinny painted surface
    that is 1/2 to 2/3 the thickness that it would have been without
    sanding.
    
    					Tom

RE: Al's comments; I've been using acrylic lacquer thinner for
quite some time with no problem.  Mostly to thin nitrate, but
also with butyrate.  No, I'm sure it was the water at the bottom
of the can.

I disagree that acetone relatively harmless; in my opinion its
very nasty stuff.  Anyway, nasty or not, a face mask is a good
idea.  I'm not one to preach, I've been very bad on that point.
My father has the asbestos thing, from when he was on the ships
in the 'fourties; it just hit him a few years ago.  And it ain't
pretty.  What I'm trying to say is that a lot of that stuff
doesn't show up for a long time. 

I think I'll try that automotive lacquer.  I'm very intimidated
by the auto paint stores.  All the guys behind the counter are
named Steve, and they always talk on the phone while you wait.
Can you elaborate on the ins and outs of buying this paint?
Particularly in the area of buying colors.  Can you get custom
mixes? or rather, how do you survive buying pints and NOT getting
custom mixes?  Never thought you could get it in less than quart
sizes -- and very expensive at that.

BTW -- I second your comments on Imron.  I've sprayed an aluminum
boat mast with it.  The thing still looked brand new a couple of
years later.  It is indeed wonderful stuff. 

    John,
    
    I've had no problem whatsoever obtaining Ditzler automotive acrylic
    lacquers here in Phoenix.  Pints are the smallest quantity you can
    buy but, as I said, a pint will easily paint 3-4 small to medium
    size birds.  I can't imagine needing any custom color mixing as
    there are literally thousands of colors, shades, tints available.
    You just browse through their color chip catalogs and select the
    one that flips yer' switch.  If they don't have that color pre-mixed,
    they just use their formula to mix it on the spot.  At our local
    Ditzler store, they frequently have sales to clear out unclaimed
    custom mixed colors at even lower prices than usual.  I don't recall
    the exact price per pint but "all" the paint for the MiG-3 (less
    thinner and including plasticizer) cost right around $20.00 so I'd
    ballpark the price at somewhere around $6.00 per pint...dirt cheap
    compared to other paints, especially those packaged for hobby use. 
    For custom mixed camouflage colors, I sent the FS numbers to Larry
    Wolfe at Jet Hangar Hobbies in Lakewood, California and he had them
    mixed and sent back to me in less tha a week.  Larry prefers not
    to ship thinner, however, due to weight and mail regulations regarding
    shipment of flammable materials...you just buy this at the local
    Ditzler dealer.
    
    We've both commented on the finish quality on DuPont Imron paint
    but I feel it's worth mentioning one more time that the stuff IS
    D**N DANGEROUS to use without GOOD ventilation and professional
    quality aspirated breating apparatus!!  PLEASE be VERRRRY careful
    if anyone decides to try the stuff!    
    
    Adios amigo...hope this helps,	Al

    Dan, how'd you get it on too thick?  How much did you thin it before
    putting on the second coat?  I don't want to have the same problem...
    
    Bill

    Re:-.89..., Dan,
    
    Understand up-front that this is personal opinion and that a lot
    of modelers like Perfect paint (and Formula-U...both polyurethanes),
    but if it were "me,"  I'd use the Perfect paint on a lawn chair
    or throw it away...I don't like the stuff!  Why?  Because the D*mn
    stuff'll go over "anything" but, once on, NOTHING will go over "IT"
    except for more Perfect (Formula-U)!
    
    So, is this a bad thing, you ask?  You'll answer yer' own question
    the first time you have a repair to do!  You can't feather-sand
    the stuff smoothly into the repair area, virtually "any" primer
    you use on the repair will attack the paint and even the fresh Perfect
    (Formula-U) paint will attack (curl/blister) the feathered edges
    of the original paint.  The d*mn stuff doesn't even like itself!!
    
    How do I know these things?  `Cause I made the mistake of using
    it on the ol' Yeller Peril (which has required "many" repairs over
    it's 6+ year lifespan) and I've cussed the stuff, virtually from
    day-1!  Another disadvantage is it's HEAVY!
    
    To be fair, I'll admit that it covers fairly well (better than dope)
    and yields a teriffic glossy finish...also, it seems pretty durable,
    but the disadvantages I've aleady noted will preclude my EVER using
    the junk again!!  TRY THE DITZLER ACRYLIC LACQUERS.          
    
    Adios amigo,	Al  
    
    P.S. The MiG-3 and Bucker pics arrived back safely in Saturday's mail,
         Gracias and I hope you enjoyed seeing them.

    
    I second that motion!  I used pin-striping tape on the citabria
    and knew that clear dope would eat it up, so I sprayed clear urethane
    over the whole thing.  It looked great but I'm kicking myself now.
    I have a repair to do and don't know how I'm gonna get rid of that
    clear coat of formula-U.  I can't repaint the repair with it there.
    
    I later found that spraying clear dope very lightly and waiting
    for it to dry works great, even over the pin-striping tape.  Even
    if the tape starts to buckle a bit, it straightens out as the dope
    dries.
    
    Bill

    Hey Dan, I assumed the reason you used glass/epoxy instead
    of Monocote or Ultracote was to get experience with it.  If that
    was the case, I would think the same argument for using the "right"
    paint NOW would also apply.
    
    If you just wanted to get some experience with glassing and worry
    about painting techniques later, I misread your intentions.  Some
    more options : 1) You *could* brush on laquer instead of spraying
    urethane from a can.  A good technique and a good brush can get a
    pretty durn good finish.  2) You could go for it now and get some
    spray equipment (or borrow some) to get some practice with it.
    3) In your case the urethane should work out fine too.  I just
    can't see using it if you don't plan on using it on your next effort.
    The best advice I've gotten was to NEVER try something new on your 
    plane - practice on test pieces and such.  I decided to practice
    on my "bang-around" plane and learned a lot about painting with
    it.
    
    Bill

    Dan,
    
    Bill beat me to the punch but I echo his sentiments about using
    a good finishing method after you've gone to all the trouble of
    laying down a good glass/resin finish base. I know of no paint/
    technique that can be brush-applied without it "looking" like it
    was brushed!  I "have" seen some pretty fair brushed K&B epoxy
    paint finishes done by heating the paint prior to painting but the
    technique is tricky and "still" doesn't equal/compare to a sprayed
    finish...I, frankly, wouldn't recommend it.
    
    Lacking spray equipment, yer' choices are really pretty limited.
    If you simply "must" go the spray-can route, about the only choice
    you have (besides Perfect/Formula-U polyurethanes) is whether to
    use Aerogloss or Sig dope.  Dope goes over yer' epoxy base just
    fine and is easily repaired but the coverage, especially in the
    lighter colors, is nothing to write home about...you'll apply many
    coats (translated: more money) to achieve the job you want. 
    
    After all the hard work yer' putting into the glass/resin/epoxy-
    primer finish base, I'd "still" recommend you beg/borrow/steal a
    spray rig and try the Ditzler acrylic lacquers...I just can't recommend
    them highly enough; if they've got one bad characteristic, I've
    yet to find it...I just love `em and I feel sure you will too when
    you see the finished results all yer' preparation made possible
    with a good paint to cap it off.
    
    Adios,	Al
    
    P.S.  I've "heard" of people obtaining great results using Rust-oleum
    spray paints but have no personal experience/knowledge of it.  Like
    Bill suggests,  experiment with "any" different technique on scrap/
    sample pieces BEFORE trying it on yer' plane...and don't forget
    to test fuel-proofness as a fuel-proof clear coat may be required
    when using non-hobby intended materials.  "Raw" fuel is the acid-test.  

    
    	Well I take it that you guys are into using REAL EPOXY to glue
    the cloth down and to fill. BOY you guys must be into weight. If
    you did use EPOXY then may I suggest that you start your sanding
    using 60 grit paper until some of the bulk is removed. From her
    you can go to 240 and then 320. This should be smooth enough. Also
    use a sanding block at all tiles. 
    	You guys really should try some alternative methods. They are
    lighter and less trouble.
    
    
    						Tom
    
    

    Dan,
    
    You "could" use Krylon or virtually "any" non-hobby spray-paint
    but it will very likely not be fuel proof (experiment to find out)
    and yer' back to the same old dilemma: you'll need a spray-rig to
    apply K&B or Hobby-Poxy clear over it or use Perfect/Formula-U clear
    spray cans which, as previously discussed, "locks" you in to all
    the undesireable characteristics of polyurethanes.  Clear Dope most
    likely would attack "any" non-similar (non-lacquer) paint as most
    of the non-hobby paints are one or another variety of enamel.
    
    Adios,	Al

    
    One guy I know got a decent finish with Black Baron spray paint
    from a can.  They call it epoxy paint but it's not a 2-part mix -
    it air dries.  It's definitely fuel proof.

    Bill

    Dan,
    
    A word of warning about Black Baron paints...they are NOT epoxy
    paints and I don't know how they get away calling them such. They
    do seem to work pretty fair but DON'T USE THE SILVER/ALUMINUM!!!
    A friend used it and, even with a coat of clear over the silver,
    it WASN'T FUEL PROOF!!  Raw fuel spills took it off immediately
    and just routine clean-up eventually took it all off.  He called
    the company and complained bitterly about it so they said it must've
    been a bad batch and sent him some new stuff, guaranteed to be good
    and it behaved identically to the first batch.  Conversely, the
    Black Baron blue trim on the plane never seemed affected at all
    so the message, apparently, is DON'T USE BLACK BARON SILVER!
    
    Adios,	Al

    Dan,
    
    Couldn't say for sure about the airless sprayer.  I"do" know that
    these rigs are intended for shooting highly viscous (thick) paints
    and I'd wonder whether they could be "dialed-down" fine enough to
    handle lacquers without "splattering" it on.  Surely there must
    be a nearby fellow-noter who'd be willing to lend you his spray
    rig...you'd sure be welcome to use mine if it were possible/prac-
    tical.  All you'd really need for yer' relatively small trainer
    is a reasonable compressor and a good airbrush.
    
    Adios and good luck,	Al

Two questions.

1.  I guess I'm suppose to protect decals from glow fuel.  One sort of
    disappeared during engine testing on the Jeep!  So can I just cover
    them with clear dope on top of my ultracote?

2.  It has already been answered in some other note but wow is this file
    getting large sooooo - What are your recommendations for an air brush?
    I'm leaning towards the badger 150 cause it's in the local hobby shop
    and seems like it does everything.  I intend to hook it to a 3/4 hp
    air compressor that is going to be under my Christmas tree.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

>1.  I guess I'm suppose to protect decals from glow fuel.  One sort of
>    disappeared during engine testing on the Jeep!  So can I just cover
>    them with clear dope on top of my ultracote?

*  Kay..., Clear dope will most likely dissolve yer' decals, on the spot!
I also doubt it'd stick too well to the ultrakote.  Yer best bet is to use 
4-aught (0000) steel wool to carefully scuff the Ultrakote in the area to be 
sprayed, taking care not to damage the decal(s), then spray on a coat of K&B 
or Hobby-Poxy clear.  The steel wooling is to provide a little "tooth" for the 
clear to adhere to but probably isn't mandatory as epoxy sticks like iron to 
almost any surface...I just like to do it for the insurance.

>2.  It has already been answered in some other note but wow is this file
>    getting large sooooo - What are your recommendations for an air brush?
>    I'm leaning towards the badger 150 cause it's in the local hobby shop
>    and seems like it does everything.  I intend to hook it to a 3/4 hp
>    air compressor that is going to be under my Christmas tree.

*  The Badger-150, if I remember right, is a double action brush with both si-
phon and internal-mix capability.  It's a good brush but may actuall be "more" 
than we need for the majority of modeling applications and, due to the higher 
parts count, it is more difficult to maintain and clean than yer' garden variety
siphon type airbrush which, by the way, is superior for applying large volumes 
of paint, vis a vis painting models.  The double action guns are intended for 
finer work and are not as well suited for merely applying paint.  

I've used a model-H Paasche, siphon-type airbrush for years with absolutely ex-
cellent results.  My buddy, Bob Frey, recently bought the same brush to replace
a really cheap Badger he had and he simply raves about it!  This particular 
brush can be had for about $40.00 through Tower Hobbies.

It all depends upon what you expect to be doing the most of with the brush: if
yer' primary motive is to spray lots of various types of paint, the single ac-
tion, siphon-type like the model-H Paasche is probably best.  If, on the other 
hand, you expect to use it mostly for very fine, detail type work, then go for 
the double-action like the Badger-150.  I suspect you'll probably have more use
for the first application so I'd recommend the Paasche or equivalent.

Adios amigo,	AL

I use the Badger Model 250-4; the one with the large bottle.  It
is really a miniature spray gun, and is listed as such in the
Badger catalog.  This is the brush that I referred to in the
previous note.

My airbrush is a Badger 350.  I have found it to be too cranky
for large surfaces, such as a wing, but I have succeeded in doing
some detail work with it.  Whichever you get, the 150, or some
other, I recommend you getting the little color cup -- the shiny
thing that goes on in place of the bottles.  It holds enough
volume to allow you to do an insignia, for example, and is easy
to clean out for color changing. 

As far as airless sprayers are concerned; I am not impressed by
any I've seen or used.  They're heavy, and noisy, and have an
annoying habit of spitting at any moment.  I think that one would
handle lacquer fairly well, but would throw it out at such a rate
that you would make a mess on a small surface like an airplane.
They are meant for nothing smaller than a fence, and a large one
at that.  Do try it on a test piece.

    Another thought or two about airbrushes:
    
    Like John, I too use a variety of spray guns/airbrushes.  I have
    an old Sears external mix gun with 1-qt. cup for really large jobs
    but haven't had occasion to need this since I got a Badger #400-2
    Detail/touch-up gun with 1-pint cup.  This has proven more than
    adequate for the larger spraying tasks, driven by my Sears oil-less
    piston compressor, nothing fancy but more than adequate to the task.
    I dearly love the touch-up gun for applying base primer and color
    coats.  BTW, I use the Sears compressor w/pressure regulator for
    all my spraying tools.
    
    For trim and/or camouflage as well as all painted insignia/markings,
    I use the Paasche model-H airbrush.  This brush comes with the little
    1/4-oz. metal paint cup John mentioned and a 2-oz. jar, either of which
    can be used according to the size of the job.  This brush has performed
    flawlessly for over 15-yr.'s, is simple to operate and can be totally
    disassembled for cleaning in about 10-15 seconds by loosening one
    set-screw. (Total removeable parts count is "3")  This brush can
    be adjusted to put out a very reasonable "fan" pattern which is
    more than adequate for painting an entire model and can be dialed
    down for fairly fine work as well.  To my mind, it's the best compromise
    in terms of an all-purpose, versatile painting tool.
    
    I also have a Paasche (I don't recall the model no.) double action,
    internal/external mix airbrush.  This is the type you may've seen
    custom T-shirt painters and Van-art painters use.  It can be dialed
    down to produce a clean line as narrow as 1/16".  I don't use this
    brush very much for several reasons: 1.) it's more fussy to setup/
    adjust  2.) as it's intended for fine work, it won't apply much
    paint and is useless for painting large areas  3.) it has a whole
    bunch of parts which complicates its use and makes clean-up more
    difficult and time consuming.  It "does" have its occasional uses
    but they are infrequent and I'll usually look for an alternative method
    before conceding to dirty it up.  This brush is similar to the Badger-
    150 you eluded to yesterday.
    
    Again, for yer' first airbrush, I'd recommend the simpler, cheaper,
    more versatile (for our application) single action, external-mix
    (siphon) type brush like the Paasche model-H or equivalent.
    
    Adios,	Al
                           

    Al:
    	You have mentioned your likes and love of Ditzler automotive
    lacquer paints.  Are these available in spray cans from an automotive
    paint suppler?  How about the same type of paint but from another
    supplier like PPG?  It seems to me that I have heard of one of the
    local paint suppliers putting any color or type of paint in an aersol
    can for touch up work. Any comments?
    						TOM from PA

    Tom,
    
    Y'know, that thought just never occurred to me but I'd think it
    was a distinct possibility as you'd "think" Ditzler'd have touch-
    up paint available in spray cans.  It'd certainly be worth looking
    into for someone who doesn't have a spray rig as yet.
    
    I suppose that various brands of acrylic lacquer automotive paints
    would have similar characteristics but, like anything else, some
    "may" be better than others.  Ditzler was the first one I tried
    and I'm so sold on it that I, quite frankly, haven't looked into
    other brands.  I, too, have heard of places that'll package virtually
    any desired paint in a spray can for you...maybe you could get
    them to "can" some Ditzler.  If not, the brand you name might well
    be worth a try...just experiment with it "first."  One drawback
    would be that you couldn't add plasticizer (unless you could convince
    the packager to add some that you provided) so the possibility of
    cracking over open structure exists. 
    
    By all means, let us know what you learn if you try it as tyhis
    seems to be of particular interest to many noters.
    
    Adios,	Al
                                              

>    .......Am I supposed to sand between the color coats as well? 

*  Dan..., it's a good idea to "wet" sand lightly between coats with 600 grit
wet or dry (used wet).  This does a number of things: 1.) it levels each coat
such that any rough spots are not "amplified" by succeeding build-up of paint;
2.) it provides a little "tooth" to ensure that each coat will adhere as well 
as the first one; 3.) it removes skin oils and other contaminants resulting
from handling the plane between coats; 4.) it provides for a smoother final 
finish.  It may not be mandatory to sand between coats but I've always done it 
for the reasons stated above.  This is not a vigorous sanding, understand, just
enough to accomplish the above...takes only a few minutes between coats, then be
sure to wipe the plane down good to remove residual sanding material before ap-
plying the next coat.  It's also a good idea to lightly pass over the entire
plane with a tack-rag (available at any paint store) immediately prior to paint-
ing to pick up any lint or other garbage that has settled on the surface.
    
>    Haven't had a chance to test the reactions of the Plasti-Kote to
>    raw fuel yet. Al, when you mentioned spraying clear over your Mig-3,
>    was that to fuel proof, or to acheive the proper finish?

*  Be "sure" to run a fuel-proof test "before" getting anywhere near the plane
with raw fuel or you may ruin the entire job and lose all that work, not to men-
tion creating "more" work.  I applied a seal coat of K&B clear w/satin hardener
for these reasons: to "ensure" fuel-proofing of the finish;  to achieve, in this
case, a more realistic matte finish (gloss hardener would've been appropriate 
for a high-gloss finish); to "bind" and seal all the trim/markings/detailing/
weathering together.  A final clear coat "may" not be mandatory but I highly re-
commend it (particularly for the fuel-proofing properties) and it's virtually
weightless.  You "might" be able to go over the Plasti-Kote lacquer with a spray
can of Aerogloss or Sig Clear dope.  Again, experiment "before" applying it to 
the plane.  Try it first in a "wet" coat and observe...if there's a problem with
the dope attacking the Plasti-Kote, try just "dusting" it on in several coats, 
letting it dry thoroughly between coats.  If neither of these methods work, yer'
only remaining options are (UGH!) polyurethane or K&B/Hobby-Poxy clear (which
will require a spray-rig).
    
>    Iron on coverings are faster, but boy does the painted version look
>    better.

*  AMEN!  Glad to hear yer' pleased with yer' first go at a painted finish over
glass/resin/primer base.  BTW, what kind of primer are you using?
    
Adios amigo,	Al    

    Dan,
    
    I assume the checkerboard is also film (like Mono-Kote trim sheets).
    Up on the wings, away from the oily exhaust you can probably get
    away without any seal coat...maybe just a heavy coat of paste wax,
    renewed from time to time.  Dope doesn't stick very well to plastic
    films so its benefit would be negligible.  If it were me, I'd get
    a can of K&B clear w/gloss hardener and, using a small brush, just
    paint on a narrow seal strip at the edge of the checkerboard.  It'll
    be invisible at 3-feet and keep oil, cleaning solutions, etc. from
    creeping under the trim sheet.
    
    Adios,	Al

Dan, let us know how you like the 250-4.  I think its a lot of
"bang for your buck".  

Can someone recommend a good testing procedure to determine if a
paint is fuel proof?  Will such a test run "cold" also apply to
the hot exhausted fuel?

Dan,

I use a thin coat of clear two pot floor lacquer over straight automotive 
acrylic. I have used it on everything from straight fuel to 60% nitro and it 
offers excellent protection and gives a finish that always gets attention.

John.

    
    Dan,  if you have trouble finding a compressor locally you can borrow
    my rig.  It's a high volume pump connected to a tank through a regulator.
    A bit bulky but not too bad.   It will give you about 30 psi.
    I won't be using it for at least a month.  If you want to borrow it,
    give me a buzz - you can pick it up at my home in Northboro or I
    can bring it to work in Marlboro if that's closer.
    
    Bill

    Dan,
    
    Glad to hear yer' so satisfied with the glass/resin/primer/paint
    finishing method.  The "really" great thing is "now" you've got
    the "first" one behind you and future jobs will be easier faster.
    
    When you spray on the K&B clear, be sure whatever compressor you
    use has enough beans to apply a nice wet coat.  Also, don't forget
    that yer' workin' with epoxy here so don't procrastinate regarding
    cleaning up the airbrush "with K&B thinner."  Unlike others paints,
    once epoxy has "kicked,"  it is absolutely invulnerable to thinner,
    K&B or any other I know of, so be sure to clean up "before" it kicks
    in the gun!
    
    As to John's question, I agree with yer' response that raw-fuel
    is the acid-test regarding fuel-proofness.  Aero-gloss used to refer
    to their dope as "hot" fuel-proof (maybe they still do) but this,
    I think, referred to surfaces that were very close to the hot exhaust
    of an unmuffled engine although I always felt "any" paint would,ve
    been "burned" off under that circumstance.  Generally (I know of
    no exception), it the finish will withstand raw fuel, it will resist
    hot exhaust and anything else we might throw at it, short of acid.
    
    Adios,	Al

    Dan,
    
    Good question; K&B and other mfgr's are a little remiss about supplying
    this little detail which is of obvious concern to the first-time
    user.
    
    First, relax...epoxy paint "will not" kick in the spary cup/jar like
    polyester resin; there is no potential for having it suddenly go
    rock-solid, ruining the cup/jar and spray equipment.  In it's liquid
    state, K&B (and other) epoxy paint will stay fluid for much more time
    than is required for the spraying job.  In thin film, however, it
    begins to cure rather rapidly and will be dry (cured) to the touch
    in an hour or so, though I'd wait overnight before handling too much.
    Note that cure time varies depending on ambient temperature (the
    warmer the better) and you probably shouldn't spray at room temp.'s
    below 65-degrees or so (a SWAG) for best results.  Since it's the thin 
    film that cures most rapidly, I clean my spray equipment immediately
    after completing the job, then worry about the unused material in the 
    cup/jar. It's really not that tricky to use...just don't wait overnight
    to cleanup or the stuff will've cured in the spray equipment and
    you'll probably never get it cleaned out.
    
    Unused (mixed) material can be saved by covering it and putting it in 
    the refrigerator; this will delay the curing process about a week.  
    You can save it almost indefinitely by placing it in the freezer com-
    partment; when ready to reuse it, simply allow it to return to room 
    temperature and it's ready to use, though it "may" require a little 
    thinning. This applies to all 2-part epoxy products including K&B
    primer.
    
    Adios amigo,	Al

    For those who are interested, I had an off-line blurb from Brian
    Jorgensen saying that Rust-Oleum paints "are" fuel proof according
    to an article Brian remembers reading some time back.  Just like
    the (so-called) epoxy spray paints from Black Baron, however, Brian
    points out that the silver/aluminum paint is NOT fuel-proof.
    
    I have no personal knowledge/experience regarding this question
    so I'd still recommend experimenting/testing on a piece of scrap
    "before" exposing the Rust-Oleum finish to raw fuel. Caution when
    using any non-hobby product is always the best policy. 
    
    Adios,	Al

Gee Al for a moment you had me worried. I thought the sun had got to you and we 
were going to get a story about rusting balsa.

Has any body in RC Notes land experienced more problems with dark pigment paint 
(ie. red and blue) than white as far as resistance to fuel. I use normal 
automotive acrylic lacquer.

John

    John,
    
    I can't say I've ever experienced the problem you mention.  I. too,
    use automotive acrylic lacquers, though mostly in military camouflage
    colors, e.g. greens, browns, grays, light blues, etc. and those
    colors needed for markings (red/white/blue/black/yellow) but have
    experienced no difficulties.
    
    Of course, I should mention that I was given to believe that acrylic
    lacquers "might" not be "totally" fuel-proof but would've used a
    K&B epoxy clear seal coat in any event for the satin/matte finish.
    This epoxy overcoat probably invalidates my experience relative
    to yer' question but are "you" using a clear overcoat?  If not, I
    highly recommend it.          
    
    Adios amigo,	Al
    
    P.S.  Have you had any contact from Bud James as yet??

I have not met up with Bud yet. If he attends the Nats we could well meet. Our 
Nats start on Jan 2 thru 8. If you are in contact with him get him to look me 
up, I am the RC coordinator hopefully for the last time.

Re Clear over the lacquer; yes as I have mentioned previous I use Clear two pot 
floor lacquer, it's muck cheaper than K&B and works as well. For quick and 
nasty models I use the clear automotive lacquer.

Q�� Al I know I will regret asking but any way hear goes. 

			"What is a Desert Rat"

John.

    
    	In ref to the air brush sprayers mentioned in previous notes,
    how much pressure and volumn are needed for proper operation?  I
    have a home made afair that will probably work. I just need to buy
    the air brush.

Re: -.130..., John,

Contrary to what you might be thinking, a "desert rat" is "not" part of the 
fauna of the southwestern American desert(s).  Rather, it was/is the generic
(and I should add, affectionate) sobriquet applied to any of the old prospec-
tors who scoured the area, their solitary companion being their faithful burro,
looking to strike it rich in the last century.  They'd acquire a grubstake (a
sponsorship from some wealthy person in return for a percentage of any "find")
and disappear into the desert/mountains for upwards of a year at a time, search-
ing for that "one" bonanza that'd put `em on easy-street for life.  Ironically,
those few who really "did" hit it big, more often than not, frittered away their
fortunes and were back in the desert in a short time.

Probably the most famous "desert rat" of `em all, at least the one yer' most 
likely to've heard of, was one Jacob Waltze (pronounced: Vaults), better known 
to history as "The Lost Dutchman."  Nowadays, the term "desert rat" is more
likely (if improperly) applied to one who "chooses" to live in the desert and
"enjoys it."

Adios amigo,	Al

P.S. Bud mentioned at the Masters that he expected to see you at a forthcoming 
RCAS meeting.  I assumed "club" meeting but just happened to remember that you
"Oz-ians" also refer to "contests/fun-flys" as meetings so now I'm not sure what
he may've meant.  I "did" get the impression that the "meeting" was coming up 
soon, perhaps this month, but I could be mistaken.  In any event, he is supposed
to assemble some thoughts/impressions on R/C in the "colonies" and give them to 
you for inclusion in the R/C notesfile.

    Re: -.131,
    
    The pressure is more important than volume.  Any reasonable compressor
    capable of providing 30-to-50 PSI should work adequately.  My compres-
    sor has no holding tank and works just fine, but I know there are
    some lesser rigs where the "pulses" from the piston can bee seen/felt
    in the output air and this "can" be a problem regarding "even-ness"
    of the applied paint.
    
    Obviously, the best deal is a compressor w/holding tank (which I
    intend to have someday) but it is not absolutely necessary. 
    
    Adios,	Al

    Dan,
        The warm water trick will help stretch the cans out. I
    used to keep mine sitting in the pan while spraying. But they will
    still cool down. I usually alternated two or three cans a session
    to avoid having to stop for the warmup. The key is WARM NOT HOT
    WATER. IF YOU CAN'T PUT YOUR HAND IN IT, DON'T PUT YOUR CAN IN IT.
    ( If you do, your can might be in it...;^) )
    
    Doug refugee_from_railroad.note     

    Oh yeah, make sure you have the pan of water OFF the heat source
    while the propel is in the pan.... It's a good idea to keep the
    propel can away from all sources of heat as a general principal....
    
    Doug
    

    Be careful where you use and how you use the Ditzler automotive
    paints.  Several of the Ditzler custom pigments contain lead in
    forms that your body can absorb.
    
    That means:  
    
    	1) Wear a spraymask.  
    	2) Use LOTS of ventilation... extractor fans directly out of
    	   the house, at least.
        3) NEVER EVER use the automotive paint for something your kid
           (you know, the one you'll have in eight years) might
    	   once-in-a-million-years be able to chew on.  That includes
    	   the neighbor's kids, too.  So don't let your Significant
    	   Other use it to paint railings, geejaws, or anything else
     	   even if it IS "exactly the right shade".  Make 'em go get
    	   their own paint.  It doesn't take much lead pigment ( around
    	   a hundredth of a gram) to seriously impair a growing child's
    	   nervous system.
    
    #3 is probably the most serious thing... With 1 and 2, you only
    have to be careful for the first few hours.  The chew-on-it hazard
    remains for years.
                                   
    
    Maybe your frieldly Steve-at-the-automotive-paint-place can tell
    you which of the custom pigments are lead-based.  DuPont did publish
    it in their books, I don't know about Ditzler.  If you can avoid
    the lead colors, you are in a much safer position.  

    Re: -.137,
    
    To the best of my knowledge, none of the non-metallic Ditzler  
    colors are considered "custom" colors and/or contain lead.  I  
    can't speak to any of the metallics/pearlescents/metalflakes 
    which "might" be considered "custom" but this would be a good/wise
    question to ask before buying a "custom" color.  If you should find
    that yer' "dream" color does, indeed, contain lead and you opt to
    use it anyway...by all means be aware of and practice all safety
    precautions.
    
    Adios,	AL

Al, you were talking about *Acrylic Lacquers*; I do not  think
that any acrylic paints contain lead, by definition.  Is this
true? 

Thanks reply -2 for the good advice on painting safety.  A
snootful of that stuff is no fun in any case.

Which reminds me, I once painted a bicycle frame using a canned
epoxy, on of those "stays wet".  I was working in a confined
garage space, and about halfway through the job became very ill.
It felt like a heart attack; sort of a chest seizure with lots of
pain.  I got outside and caught my breath, then continued, like a
dummy, with the job by holding my breath.  It wasn't until a
couple of years ago that I read that those were the symptoms of
epoxy poisoning that I realized what had happened.  I mention
this because we've been talking about epoxies, albeit not true
ones, in this note. 

    John,
    
    My understanding always was that acrylic lacquers were, in fact, 
    acrylic, not lead based paints.  However, I know nothing about the
    "custom" colors eluded to and, therefore, can't confirm or deny
    the possibility of their containing lead. 
    
    In any case, as you've mentioned, it's just good common horse sense
    to use good safety practices regarding ventilation and breathing
    masks when working with "any" paint.  I, quite frankly, don't ever
    expect one of my birds to be nibbled upon by some lil' munchkin but
    I'm not anxious to zap "myself" either.  So, lead or no-lead, I
    apply common sense to my handling/use of any/all paints, epoxies,
    CYA's and other substances encountered when building a model.  
    
    Adios,	Al

    Dan,
    
    Please understand that my intent is "NOT" to rub salt in yer' wounds
    but yer' [bad] experience is precisely why I strongly recommend
    sticking with hobby-intended products or those that have been well
    proven [by others] to be suitable to our use...Ya' gets whut' ya'
    pays fer'!
    
    I feel for you as I've "been there"...I used a garden variety casting
    resin from Standard Brands for my very first .6-oz. glassing job
    and the d**n stuff didn't cure for over a year.  Yes! I was so
    disgusted with the outcome that I "did" let it sit that long before
    getting back to it.  The stuff was "still" tacky but a coupla' coats
    of K&B primer sealed it and an acceptable finish was "finally" attained
    but, ever since that incident, I patently refuse to use "any" non-hobby
    product 'til it's been "PROVEN" to me that it's been thoroughly
    and completely tested and found to be suitable for hobby use. That's
    the reason that Ditzler acrylic lacquers are, currently, thr *ONLY*
    non-hobby product I either use or recommend.  I'm sure there "are"
    others but I choose to stay away from them `til I've personally
    "seen" the results on "someone else's" bird. 
    
    Adios and good luck amigo,	Al

    One way to reduce the chances of incompatibility is to let
    each coat cure for as long as possible before adding the
    next coat. It doesn't always work as some paints flat out 
    weren't meant to be used together, but waiting a week is
    free, but not easy...
    
    Doug
    
    Look on the bright side, think of how much better you can
    do now that you've had some practice.

    RE:288.140 and others
    
    If anybody is interested in improving their safety while painting,
    the latest issue (January I think) of Model Railroader has an article
    on how to build a spray booth. There's been a number of safety issues
    regarding painting raised in MR lately.  They designed a ventilated
    paint booth that can be built with a minumum of tools for about
    $150. The booth they built might be a bit small for painting a plane
    but would be a good starting point for someone wanting to design
    and build a larger one.
    
    Dan Eaton

    Another idea that might help someone out...
    
    I don't think it would be unreasonable to go to your local FRIENDLY
    autobody person and ask if he would paint a model for you.  These
    people deal with spray every day.  They have all of the right 
    equipment too.
    
    It might be a way for someone to try the glassing techniques without
    having to bother with the spray equipment...
    
    Back when I built my sailboat, my dad worked at a Chevy dealership.
    He was able to get the body shop to finish the hull.  They did a
    great job.  It is still in good shape today, 10 years later...
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    
    	I am planning on using fiberglass and paint for my ducted fan
    winter project, but I am concerned about the weight gain.  Can any
    one give me an idea of the difference between a monocote job and
    a glass n paint job on a 6 to 7 lb model.  This assumes a good job
    with sand paper and probably using automotive lacquer.
    	Any inputs on any size aircraft that you have experience with would
    be of help.
    
    					Thanks TOM from PA

    Tom,
    
    The answer to yer' questio can be somewhat subjective as so much
    depends on the techniques employed by the individual builder. I'm
    not going to try to convince you that glass/paint can be applied
    at the same weight as film coverings but the weights of the two
    methods can be closer than you might think.
    
    It's hard to get specific without having two identical ships, covered
    in both methods, to refer to.  However, in another topic, Ron...[Oh!
    he**, I've dumped his last name and don't want to abort this reply
    to go find it] mentions his mono-koted Aeromaster weighing 6-6 1/2
    lbs.  My last Aeromaster, with .6 oz. glass/polyester resin over
    the sheet areas and super shrink Coverite over the open structure
    weighed-in at 6-lbs. 10-oz. so, depending on Ron's bird's exact
    weight, the differential could be from 2-to-10 oz.  I' figure half
    of that spread, 4-oz., is probably realistic for that ship.  that'd
    work out to roughly .6-oz. per pound increase for glass/paint over
    film covering.  Even at 1-oz. per pound, the differential isn't
    that much and can be easily lived with by most models.
    
    Hope this helps, adios,	Al

    Well,
    
    Last night I tryed stripping the Formula U off of the PT40.  I have'nt
    been successful to this point at removing the oil from the Balsa,
    so it seemed to be the thing to do.  Well, even two coats of commercial
    paste type stripper did'nt remove all of it (still has a light finish
    in some places).  It looks like it has removed the oil though, I'll
    recheck it tonight to be sure.  I oughta be good at finishing planes
    long before the Jetstar is ready for finishing.
    
    Chris
    
    PS -  stay away from Polyurethane paints, I have had other problems
    besides this with them.
         

>	OK, we're ready for color, BUT FIRST...I always spray on a coat of sil-
>	ver before going to the actual colors.  This has several benefits: 1.)
>	the silver binds the whole effect together and allows you to see, for 
...
>	Now for the color, and this shouldn't take long in the telling.  I or-
>	dered my colors from Larry Wolfe's Jet Hangar Hobbies who mixed them
>	to the FS numbers I'd provided.  The paint is Ditzler acrylic lacquer

Al - Was the silver suppose to be a Ditzler acrylic lacquer also?
If so - what kind of silver should I ask for - they probably have
lots of silvers.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    KAY,
    
    Any [Ditzler] silver would do...specify silver aluminum, aluminum-
    silver or whatever.  I, however, use Aerogloss [I think it's called
    Silvaire Aluminum] right out of the spray-can and have no problem 
    whatsoever.  I've heard it said that acrylic lacquer doesn't adhere 
    well to dope but I have NOT found this to be true in my experience.
    I've used this method on at least my last 4 models and have experienced
    no peeling, chipping or other adhesion problems.  BTW, I strongly
    recommend using Southern R/C Products Plasticizer with any acrylic
    lacquer to prevent the paint becoming brittle, especially over open
    [fabric covered] structure.
    
    Adios amigo,	Al

    Al,
    
    If I'm not mistaking, Dupont makes an additive call "Flex-add",
    for use on rubber bumper etc.  Does Ditzler make such a product??
    Also, I'm looking for a covering(material) that has a has the
    adhesive pre-applied on the back that has a SMOOTH finish.  I've
    thought about Solar-Tex, but I'm not crazy about the "woven" look
    that woulk require lots of h e a v y primer to fill.  Any 
    suggestions???(It's probably in this note if I look throught 
    the entire thing:-))
    
    Thanks,
    
    Brian J.  

>    If I'm not mistaking, Dupont makes an additive call "Flex-add",
>    for use on rubber bumper etc.  Does Ditzler make such a product??

* I couldn't honestly say for sure, Brian, but if it's commonly used for making
acrylic lacquer flexible enough for use on bumpers, I'd certainly expect Ditzler
to have their own brand of this product.  You'd have to inquire of yer' local
Ditzler products distributor to know for sure if such a product is available.  
As I've said previously, I've been using Southern R/C Products Plasticizer for 
the purpose of preventing cracking of the Ditzler acrylic lacquer and am well 
satisfied with it.

>    Also, I'm looking for a covering(material) that has a has the
>    adhesive pre-applied on the back that has a SMOOTH finish.  I've
>    thought about Solar-Tex, but I'm not crazy about the "woven" look
>    that woulk require lots of h e a v y primer to fill.  Any 
>    suggestions???(It's probably in this note if I look throught 
>    the entire thing:-))

* Can I assume you want to paint over the covering after it's applied to the 
model?  There are many brands of heat-activated self adhesive, heat-shrink, 
plastic film coverings on the market such as Top-Flite Super Mono-Kote, Cover-
ite's Black Baron film, Solarfilm, et al.  I've never done it myself but I've
heard/read of modelers using these films as a finish base. As I recall, the film
(usually clear) is applied normally, then it is lightly scuffed with fine, 4-
aught (0000) steel wool and K8B primer applied over it.  After sanding the 
primer, paint is applied normally.  BTW, this is how Dave PLatt told me he used
to finish his models before he discovered .6-oz. glass and resin.  According to
Dave, the disadvantage to this method was that the film would still sag/wrinkle
with changes in the temperature and was prone to peeling loose just like a nor-
mally film-covered model.
    
Hope this was what you were asking about..., adios,	Al

Al,

I had considered using mono-kote, but the reason I opted not to 
was because I CAN'T stand it when the stuff bubbles and sags with 
the change in temperature.  I covered the last model with mica film,
(preprimed type) and was happy with it, but it has yet to be field
tested.(I wonder it will bubble also?)  I'd also like to avoid having
to brush the adhesive on.  

It seems, through the reading of this note, that you have had good
results with the Super Coverite, and filling the "woven" look with primer.
Do you use the flex add in the primer?  The add in Tower's says that 
SilkSpun Coverite doesn't have this "fabric" look.  Have you ever used 
it?  If so what are some of the characteristics.

Thanks for all the help Al.

Regards,

Brian J.

P.S.  How do you pull excerpts from my text into yours???  > *************
               
    

>			....I covered the last model with mica film,
> (preprimed type) and was happy with it, but it has yet to be field
> tested.(I wonder it will bubble also?)  I'd also like to avoid having
> to brush the adhesive on.  

* Though I intend to use it on the oldtimer Playboy for its uncanny resemblance
to the clear-doped, colored silkspan coverings commonly used on the original, I
have little actual experience with Mica-film.  I know it's considerably stronger
than the plastic films but is somewhat harder to apply.  Observing the Mica-film
covering jobs popularly used on oldtimers, my observation has been that, unlike
the plastic-films, it doesn't sag/wrinkle and seems unaffected otherwise by 
temperature changes, another feature that attracted me to it.

> It seems, through the reading of this note, that you have had good
> results with the Super Coverite, and filling the "woven" look with primer.

* I'm not exactly sure how this [mis] impression came about.  I only use Super 
Coverite on open framework structure(s) like [non sheeted] wings, control sur-
faces and stringeres fuselageD.  While I'm sure it "could" be used overall, I
feel the weight would be more than other methods, e.g. glass/resin.

> Do you use the flex add in the primer?  

* No...I've never found it necessary.  The K&B epoxy primer is [apparently] suf-
ficiently flexible of itself.

>					....The add in Tower's says that 
> SilkSpun Coverite doesn't have this "fabric" look.  Have you ever used 
> it?  If so what are some of the characteristics.

* I've not used this method, personally, but my buddy, Bob Frey, used to use it 
all the time on his scale ships.  He'd iron on the silkspun coverite normally,
then brush/spray K&B primer over it, sanding it nearly all off between [usually
2] coats, then spray on the color coats.  This method produced a very nice fin-
ish but, occasionally, Bob'd have to get out the iron/heat-gun and take care of
a wrinkle or a seam that came loose.  Bob, nowadays, uses the glass/resin method
exclusively.

> Thanks for all the help Al.

* Yer' more than welcome!

> P.S.  How do you pull excerpts from my text into yours???  > *************

* When you read a note you want to reply to [and excerpt from], use the command
"EXTRACT/NOHEADER anyfile.name."  This extracts a copy of the affected note to
your DCL directory.  Now, use the command SPAWN which [temporarily] takes you to
the DCL level without exiting NOTES.  Edit the extracted note using the command
"EDT ANYFILE.NAME", deleting, cut/pasting, adding text etc. as you wish then 
exit the EDT session.  Now, and this may sound odd, log off...the system will 
log off yer' DCL session and return to notes, right where you were when you 
"SPAWNED" out.  The command "REPLY ANYFILE.NAME" will now enter your edited file
as a reply, just CTRL-Z, add a title and enter your note.  Easy, right?

Adios,	Al

>* I'm not exactly sure how this [mis] impression came about.  I only use Super 
>Coverite on open framework structure(s) like [non sheeted] wings, control sur-
>faces and stringeres fuselageD.  While I'm sure it "could" be used overall, I
>feel the weight would be more than other methods.

*I reckon I was specifically addressing your use of Super Coverite on the open
structure as apposed to the entire plane(fus and all).  Can ya successfully
abolish that woven look with your primer ad sand paper when using Coverite?
When your finish coat is applied, can you achieve a "smooth" finish???



> ...Now, and this may sound odd, log off...the system will 
> log off yer' DCL session and return to notes, right where you were when you 
>"SPAWNED" out.  The command "REPLY ANYFILE.NAME" will now enter your edited
>file as a reply, just CTRL-Z, add a title and enter your note.  Easy, right?


* You BETCH-YA it's easy!  

Thanks for the advice,

Brian Jorgensen

    Brian,
    
    Yes, you can get all the weave out of the coverite using K&B primer
    but at the penalty of some extra weight.  This is not a concern
    for me as, dealing with scale, I "want" the weave to show and only
    use 1-coat of primer which "still" obscures the weave more than
    I'd prefer.  2-to-3 coats, lightly sanded will completely fill the
    weave.
    
    Adios,	Al

Al

Do you only use the plasticizer on the paint that does on the open
structures or do you need to use plasticizer in all the paint?

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

>< Note 288.160 by GHANI::CASEYA "THE DESERT RAT (I-RC-AV8)" >
>                      -< RE:.-1, I PLASTICIZE ALL OF IT. >-

But do you do it on purpose or because you already mixed a rare Russian
camouflage color and want the same color on the open areas as the non-open
areas?

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    I just mix the plasticizer in as a matter of course, figgerin' that
    making the finish a little more flexible is as beneficial over solid/
    sheeted areas as it is over open/fabric covered ones.  Since the
    paint [acrylic lacquer] is intended for use over pretty inflexible
    material [steel] I figure the potential for cracking is there on
    our models, even over sheeted areas, owing to the flexibility of
    a balsa airframe as compared to a steel fender.  
    
    To the best of my knowledge, the plasticizer doen't alter the color/
    shade of the paint in the least.  Bob Frey used plasticized paint
    on the fabric covered control surfaces of his P-47 and straight
    out of the can on the rest but the quantity of material we're talking
    about saving in this manner [you only add 1-tbsp to the unthinned
    quart] is so insignificant as to negate the extra effort.  I just
    prefer to use plasticized over the entire ship and entirely eliminate
    any possibility of the finish cracking.
    
    Adios,	Al

    Well...here's what I got done on vacation,
    
    The PT40 (the midwest version of the Ol' Yellow Peril) is rebuilt,
    repainted, re-everything and ready to go next time the weather is
    good.
    
    The SIG KOUGAR has been covered with Dan Parson's .6 oz. cloth and
    Envirotex epoxy.  I started sanding the filler coat last night with
    120 Tri-m-ite.   Definitely gonna get some 80 grit before I go any
    farther.  I had quickly switched to 100, but that still was not
    much better.  I know by the time I get this done I'll have put some
    muscle on my arm.   This stuff is a B----- to sand.  Next time the
    filler coat is gonna be K&B clear or primer.
    
    The Jetstar has about 6 hours of work on it and the wing, and stab
    are joined, tipped, and sanded.  I bought some Rhom-air retracts
    for it and have had to trim the mounts accordingly.  This plane
    appears to be a quick builder.  
    
    Thanks to everyone who has given me suggestions on building and
    equipment selection, especially Tom Tenerowicz and Al Casey.
    
    Also, I bought a Badger 250-4 airbrush,  talk about fantastic control
    (well, almost).  The only bad thing is you have to switch cans of
    air as they freeze up.  I gotta find a source for consistent air
    pressure.  Any suggestions?
    
    Chris
    

    Chris,
    I have thought of buying a portable air tank like the service stations
    use for filling a tire on the road.  They run about $35-$40, and
    could be filled at a service station pump.  I think it would work
    ok, and be much cheaper than a compressor, especially since you
    probably would not use it that often.
    
    Does anyone else have inputs to this suggestion?
    
    Ken

    Ken,
    
    Sounds like an excellent idea to me.  Badger sells an adapter for
    using a tire inner tube, but the thought of an inner tube sitting
    there does'nt appeal to me.  Your idea beats a $100 compressor as
    it is cheaper and could be used for other things as well.
    
    Thanks,
    Chris

    I'd recommend adding a regulator/moisture trap to that tank
    set-up. The regulator will generally improve the use-ability
    ( functionality??) of the setup, and the moisture trap should
    be a big help keeping the crud from the inside of the tank
    from messing up your work... Bad news is it'll add 35-45 bucks
    to the set up :^(...
    
    In fact the reg/trap is a good thing to have with a compressor
    too... 
    
    Doug 

    I've used the spare-tire trick; it's OK for touch-ups but you
    run out of air fast, maybe 3 minutes time.  Likewise the cans
    are expensive (and damage the ozone layer, if you're the type that
    worries about such things).
    
    You can get a cheap compressor for $15 at Rich's or Zayres.  It's
    the kind that plug into the cigarette lighter socket on a car. 
    Tee that into the spare-tire/innertube line and you ought to be
    OK.  You can get 12V for the compressor somewhere in your shop,
    right?  Car battery charger works fine, likewise the 12V battery
    in your field box needs cycling, doesn't it!
    
    (If you got an old refrigerator (junk) out back, you can use the
    compressor out of that!  You'll need to put an oil/water trap of some
    sort (2" vertical pipe works fine) on the output.  Cost should
    be Real Cheap.
    
    Now, if you are interested in de German Varplanes, I have notes
    on using ze refrigerator kompressor to make ze liquid oxygen fur
    das Me163 rocket-plane interzeptor.  Zound good, ya?   :-) :-) :-)    )

Geez, that cigarette lighter compressor sounds like a great idea,
wish I'd thought of that when I was looking.  I have a Miller
that I bought at the flea market.  The car compressor should put
out 30 or so pounds; that's better than my Miller will do!

Good thinking!  The only hitch I can see is that the car
compressor might not put out a smooth enough airflow for
airbrushing.  That's quite a problem with airbrushes; they're
sensitive to airflow.  Of course, if you put on a regulator and
run it at about 20 pounds you might be able to get away with it.

    The idea of a tee into a spare tire should also regulate the output
    fairly well, yes??

    That was the idea; the spare tire acts as a resoirvor.  Make the
    hose from tee to tire short and from tee to airbrush long, and you
    ought to be fine...
    
    Or get out the tire-patching kit and build a two-outlet innertube
    :-)
    
    Hey, if you have a don't-care-about tubeless tire on a rim, just drill
    a second hole in the rim, install a second tubeless tire valvestem, and
    you are in Fat City!  No special plumbing or anything necessary!
    Since you've already bought the tire-to-hose adapter, you own
    everything but the valvestem (and any tire store can sell you one
    for $2.00)
    
     
    

    Sounds to me like the best, easiest, and probably cheapest course
    remains purchasing a nice little 100-dollar compressor which can
    be readily stored [out of sight] in a cabinet, under a bench, etc.
    By the time you've bought a 12-vdc compressor, regulator, moisture 
    trap, tire and rim or inner-tube, tee-fittings, hoses, ad infinitum,
    the expense just "has" to be getting close to that of a good compres-
    sor and you'll have some Rube Goldberg monstrosity requiring half 
    a garage to store it and probably be embarrassed to be seen using it,
    assuming it even works.

    Why not just convince Momma how handy it'd be to have a nice compressor 
    around: "But, gee, honey, I can use it to paint the trim on the house,
    paint the fence, keep the tires aired up on the car(s) and, maybe, even
    paint my models with it."  :-}  Seriously, a "good" compressor is one of 
    the most important workshop tools you can buy and, properly cared for, 
    it'll last a lifetime, "well" after you've forgotten the purchase price.
    
    Just an opinion..., adios,	Al

Al's got a good point there, but I think that this setup, *if it
works,* will deliver a smoother airstream than an equivalent
compressor.  Though I'll admit you are getting close to the point
of diminishing returns.  Anyway, its a heckovalot more fun.

Also, with reference to the Family Comptroller, I made it a big
deal to use my compressor and Badger 250 airgun to spray paint
some house doors.  Every little bit counts!

    Chris,
    Since you came through for me....
    As long as you promise not to paint your house with it you can borrow
    my compressor. Works great with my air brush.
    
    Dan Eaton.

>    paint my models with it."  :-}  Seriously, a "good" compressor is one of 
>    the most important workshop tools you can buy and, properly cared for, 
>    it'll last a lifetime, "well" after you've forgotten the purchase price.

I'll second that - I got one for Christmas and haven't used the air brush
yet.  But it was worth the price alone just for the air blast nozzle for
cleaning dust and debris.  I use it nearly every night and I still have
yet to paint.  When my wife yells at me cause it's time to go some place
I use the nozzle to blast all the balsa dust off my cloths and now I don't
get heck for getting filthy when I'm suppose to be getting ready to go out!

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    My big (1 hp??) compressor puts out too MUCH air (and too irregularly)
    to use with my el cheapo airbrush.  Even with the built-in 50 PSI
    popoff valve.
    	
    Oh well...
    

    re .-1 : If you want to smooth out the flow, you need an air tank
    accumulator with a restrictor. (an RC circuit for you electrical
    types)  Attach a regulator to the tank output and you can get smooth
    flow at low flow rates.
    
    Charlie
    
    
    

	I guess I tend to overdo things a bit, but it seems like I am
	always backing myself into these things.

	I started out with a miller "compressor" and the external mix
	air "guns" that come with this unit.  I kinda thought that this
	would be just right for doing model work, having used full
	size spray guns to paint a couple of cars quite a time ago.
	Some of these can put out enough air to FLY the model, not to
	mention painting it!!  Anyhow, this turned out not to be too
	pleasing for a couple of reasons.  The airflow of the compressor
	pulses because it is not regulated.  The siphon action of the
	external mix "gun" causes lag in paint flow and sputtering.
	Both of these "features" cause uneven application of paint to
	the model surface and so to compensate for this so that you get a
	nice smooth finish, you apply more paint and more weight.  That
	way the paint wets out properly and all these problems go away,
	at least until it runs. :-)

	As for the twelve volt set up, never tried this, but those little
	pumps take about twenty minutes to fill a car tire to 30 psi.  If
	as someone said earlier, you can expect around three minutes of air
	from this, well its not for me.  I'd also be just a little worried
	about the flammability of paint spray vapors and that sparky little
	DC motor sharing space.

	Nope.  There is just no substitute for the right tool for the job.

	And so, I'm now using a Montgomery wards 4 hp compressor with a 20
	gallon tank, regulator, water separator-filter and a top quality
	Binks spray gun, just like the old days!  BTW: you can find these
	things second hand for about the same 100 bucks, (not the gun)
	even less if you are willing to accept one that needs a little work.
	It really helps to put a second regulator right on the base of the
	spray gun too, to suppress the surge of air that builds up in the
	air line between pulls of the trigger.

	If ya' don't do enough painting to make any of this worth it, well
	that black baron epoxy paint in a can works pretty good.  Just make
	sure to take the spray head off and soak it good in some thinner
	after each use or the can only works good once.

	Just another opinion.

	Ron

Thanks all for the input, looks like there is always the right way and
    better more expensive way.
    
    However, since Dan Eaton has graciously offered to lend me his
    compressor,
    
                            I ACCEPT!
    
    I tryed last night to get the 1st coat on the Kougar and had to
    swap propellant cans at least 6 times. 
    
    Chris

    Chris,
    
    I've "heard" that placing the freon propellant can in a pan of warm
    water [not so hot as to cause the propellant to expand, read blow-up]
    makes things go a little easier, however, I find everything about
    this method completely unacceptable except, perhaps, for painting
    small plastic models.  By all means, use Dan's compressor!  Doubtless
    you'll be so impressed you'll have to have one of yer' own.
    
    Adios, 	Al

    If you do any of your own car work, a compressor is one of the most
    valuable tools for that too.  I use mine more than any other tool.
    I have an air wrench, a chissel, and a rotary grinder.  I have a
    Sears 1 Hp two cylinder compressor and I would not recommend anything
    smaller.  One advantage of a one Hp unit is that it is just about
    the largest one that can be run on 115 Volts.  You need a solid
    20 amp line to run it and an extension cord will NOT work.  I once
    tried a 50 foot heavy duty cord when I had a need for air in my
    back yard, and it was no go!  The thing just stalled and popped
    the breaker.  My tank pressure cycles between 75 and 100 psi which
    when regulated gives a fairly constant pulse free flow.
    

>    If you do any of your own car work, a compressor is one of the most
>    valuable tools for that too.  I use mine more than any other tool.
>    I have an air wrench, a chisel, and a rotary grinder. 

*  I couldn't agree more... once ya have a good compressor, it becomes 
 one of the most cherished tools in the shop.  I was able to make one
 out of a 45 gal water tank I found at the dump, an old Westinghouse 
 3 Hp Electric motor, and I "bought" a two cylinder Cambel Housfield
 pump.  It delivers about 12 cfm @ 125 psi... and works like a charm.
 I also use it for all kinds of automotive tools, along with a my
 sandblasting outfit, Divilbiss spray gun, Binks jam gun, and even
 the tiniest of airbrushes; provided ya use a good regulator.

 I think the whole sha-bang was had for less than 175$... a real bargain,
 considering if ya bought the thing complete for the proverbial price 
 of 600-800$$$$ (too much for my pocketbook).

 If you ARE resorting to one of the tinier compressors, try putting a 
 propane tank on it[or something of the sort] to help regulate it.  It'll
 take that "pulsation" out of it, and make it a little more "bearable."

 I really can't imagine(as Al C. said) painting anything more than a plastic
 model with the Freon tanks... you'll go broke on Freon, and have nothing 
 to show when your all through(in terms of residual value...yeah, I guess
 you'll have the melt from the cans 8^) ) ....TAKE THE PLUNGE AND MAKE OR
 BUY A  G O O D COMPRESSOR, ...even if ya pick up the "Want-adds" and get
 one used, you'll be the happy camper in the long-run!


Just a consideration...

Brian
                               

    Since we are talking about people kludging together their own
    compressors complete with air tanks, I think a word of warning is
    called for.  Don't use any old tank for an air reservoir unless
    you are very sure that it can take the pressure!!  Also, all
    commercially available compressors have a pressure relief valve
    on the tank to prevent overpressure in case the pressure switch
    fails.  Unless you are sure that the pump you are using will not
    overpressure the tank even if it is left on continuously, you should
    use a relief valve.  The tank should be way over rated because they
    tend to rust on the inside because the compressor condenses water
    in the tank.  You should also add a vent at the bottom of the tank
    to let water out.  If you are going to use the compressor for spray
    painting, you should add a filter/water separator to the output
    to keep water and dirt out of the spray gun. 
    
    *** There is alot of stored energy in a pressurized air tank! **
    
    If you don't know how to build one, I would recommend that you spend
    the extra bucks and buy one with all of the safety features. (They
    are required by law.)
    
    Charlie
    

Excellent point Charlie!  If you DO build one, any old tank WON'T do, and 
if you pick one up at the dump or a similar place, be SURE to have it pressure
checked! Also, be sure to use all the necessary precautionary devices:
e.g., water drain, pressure safety release(in case you're motor should
stay on).  I picked a lot of this up at Air Power of New England.  They
were most helpful.  

If you opt to make a compressor, take ALL necessary PRECAUTIONS.

/Brian
      

    I can't recall who asked the question [or where it was asked] and
    the "SEARCH" function is so painfully slow this morning I gave up
    looking so this is probably as good a place as any to put this.
    
    The question was about SIG Koverall and I responded in general terms
    to the effect that it seems to be becoming quite popular of late
    but that I have no personal knowledge/experience with it.
    
    Lo and behold, I stumbled onto quite a detailed blurb on applying/
    finishing Koverall in this month's Model Aviation.  Look in the
    Radio Control-Scale column by Bob Wischer and you'll find a com-
    prehensive, step-by-step article regarding the application, care
    and feeding of Koverall.  Interestingly, Bob recommends mixing alum-
    inum powder in the last coats of clear for the purpose of creating
    an ultra-violet barrier.  This is the same reason I always recommend
    a silver undercoat though I'm not sure why silver paint [which I
    use] wouldn't work as well [with a lot less fuss] than the aluminum
    powder mixed in clear.
    
    Adios,	Al

    Al,
    
    I was in the auto parts store this weekend, and I recalled that
    Ditzler used to make[and I found they still do] a two part Epoxy
    Primer.  Have you ever trieit?? 
    
    I'll be sure to let ya know how the Citabria comes out.  Thanks
    for all your advice in 288.* ...it sure hase been an inspiration!
    
    /Brain

    Brian,
    
    No, can't say as I was aware of an epoxy primer by Ditzler but chances
    are it may be similar to K&B...might be interesting to try some.  It
    would just "have" to be a cheaper way to go if it works acceptably
    in our application(s).
    
    Yes, definitely let us know how the Citabria comes out...glad the
    topic has been of help and hope you come out with a job to "write
    home about."
    
    Adios,	Al

I just checked with the local auto parts store, and the price on the
TWO part Ditzler epoxy primer is only 10$ per quart, and the hardener is also
10$ but treats a gallon... not a bad price, in fact it's come down in $ since I 
last used it! The primer is DP-40 and the hardener is DP-401... I'll try it 
on a plane and let ya know how it works/holds up.  It sure beats the pants off,
[in terms of $] the K & B primer!

Oh, Al.  Do you use the flex additive in the Epoxy top coat??
                                                                          
-Brian J.

    Brian,
    
    No, I don't plasticize the K&B clear overcoat.  The epoxy paints
    seem flexible enough of their own accord.  Acrylic lacquers, on
    the other hand, tend to be slightly brittle in our application,
    therefore requiring plasticizer to protect against cracking.
    
    I should re-emphasize that the cracking is most likely to occur
    over open, fabric-covered areas but I use plasticized paint over
    the entire model for extra security/peace of mind.  The handling
    characteristics of the paint do not change whatever.
    
    Adios,	Al

    Re: .-2..., Brian,
    
    BTW, I failed to mention that I'm most interested in yer' impressions
    of the Ditzler 2-part epoxy primer.  If it performs the same as
    K&B, many modeling dollars could be saved [as you've already indicated]
    and applied to other areas.  I have no doubt that other noters will
    be equally interested in the results of yer' test of this material.
    
    Adios,	Al

I can't seem to locate an add for Southern R/C Products for
the paint plasticizer.

Anybody have the address and/or phone number?
Anybody remember the cost?

I checked my local auto store (they carry acme paint) and
they do have a flex additive - but it was about $20 for a pint.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    I'll check the label on my bottle of plasticizer and see if the
    mfgr.'s address is on it.  You might consider, however, ordering
    it direct from Larry Wolfe at Jet Hangar Hobbies, (213) 860-7612,
    that's where I got mine.  Larry also custom-mixes Ditzler acrylic
    lacquers to the FS number you provide...again, that's how I got
    the paint for the MiG-3.
    
    Adios amigo,	Al

    Kay, 
    
    A week ago you asked about the source for Southern R/C Products
    "Flex-All" plasticizer.  Sorry for the delay but I failed to re-
    member that Dave Brown now distributes all of Southern's products
    which complicated my search somewhat.  Anyway, I finall wised up
    and started looking for it under Dave Brown instead of Southern
    and, guess what, I found it in the March issue of Model Aviation
    on page 35.  You probably have the mag to refer to but, in case
    you don't, the address is:
    
    		DAVE BROWN PRODUCTS
    		4560 LAYHIGH
    		HAMILTON,
    		OHIO  45013
    		(513) 738-1576
    
    Adios amigo,	Al
    
    P.S.  Wish you were able to come along with Kevin to our 1/8 AF
    Scale Fly-In next month.  It'll be an extra blast for me with a
    noter as our special guest.

>    A week ago you asked about the source for Southern R/C Products
>    "Flex-All" plasticizer.  Sorry for the delay but I failed to re-
>    member that Dave Brown now distributes all of Southern's products
>    which complicated my search somewhat.  Anyway, I finall wised up
>    and started looking for it under Dave Brown instead of Southern
>    and, guess what, I found it in the March issue of Model Aviation
>    on page 35.  You probably have the mag to refer to but, in case
>    you don't, the address is:
>    
>    		DAVE BROWN PRODUCTS
>    		4560 LAYHIGH
>    		HAMILTON,
>    		OHIO  45013
>    		(513) 738-1576
>    
>    Adios amigo,	Al

Great - thanks - I just called and ordered two bottles at $2.95 each.
One is for Kevin (he doesn't know yet).  The local paint store wanted
to sell me a pint of flex additive for $24 - and they had to order it.

Now another question.
This will be the first time I'll be painting and covering both except
the glider I just finished.  On the glider I covered the tail feathers
and there were no ailerons.

So on the Big Stick 20 - I just started glassing last night.  Should I
glass the Ailerons and tail feathers also - or just primer and paint
over bear wood?

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

Sorry for the extra node - I forgot to ask mention 
that last night I also covered a wing with SUPER SUPER Coverite
for the first time.  It was very easy to apply - but the
crap has no strength.  It shrinks and stretches like crazy.
When I had covered the wing but not yet shrunk the open areas
it looked great.  I proceeded to heat the open areas and indeed
there are no wrinkles - but it never shrinks up and gets tight
like a drum (ala - MonoKote).  After I finished I checked for warps
and I had a little twist in one wing panel  - so I proceeded to
twist the wing and reheat the open areas.  The junk didn't have enough
pulling power to help eliminate warps.

Is this just the way it is - or should I raise the heat?

After I paint this stuff - then I can't heat it anymore - right?

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    Since the _primary_ purpose of glass/resin is to establish a uniform
    finish base, I glass all solid or sheeted areas _except_ for areas
    which will be subsequently covered with some other material, i.e. I
    don't glass leading/trailing edge/center-section sheeting of an
    open-structure wing which will be covered with [say] super Coverite.
    To do so would be redundant, doubling effort and weight, serving
    no purpose except [perhaps] to undermine the adhesive of the covering
    material.  For solid/sheeted control surfaces, shoot yer' best shot
    but bear in mind the purpose is to attain a base for finish.  .06-oz.
    cloth adds "verrrrry" little strength to the structure.  
    
    I beg to differ on the issue of strength regarding super Coverite
    vs. plastic film coverings.  Super Coverite is infinitely stronger
    than film in terms of tensile strength, puncture resistance and
    virtually any other parameter you might name.  Because it's a fabric,
    it won't shrink drum-tight like the films and its inherent flexibility
    makes it less effective when trying to straighten a warp/twist but
    this is not a "strength" issue.  More heat "might" help straighten
    te twist but be careful; too much can damage the material.  Yer'
    best bet when covering _any_ wing is to build and cover it carefully,
    not depending on the covering to correct building errors.
    
    Once primered and painted, super Coverite tautens up nicely but
    will _never_ attain the drum-tightness yer' used to with the films.
    Super Coverite continues to be shrinkable after painting, the only
    limiter being the scorch point of the paint itself.  I frequently
    shrink out a sag/wrinkle resulting from damage/repair of the structure
    by carefully applying heat, taking care not to scorch or burn the
    paint.  This isn't especially difficult as the paint will discolor
    under heat and will darken dramatically if you approach "too" much
    heat.
    
    Adios amigo,	Al
    
    BTW, the Flex-All plasticizer you bought will go a long, long way.
    You only mix 1-tbsp plasticizer to the unthinned quart of paint [I
    think that's right] so that small bottle will do several airplanes.

    Brian,
    
    Received the poop-sheet on the Ditzler 2-part epoxy primer a day
    or so ago.  I can't profess to being very up on what all the various
    specs mean but I was a little uncomfortable with the list of incom-
    patible surfaces.  Have you had any compatibility problems using
    this primer?  Chances are a similar spec-sheet on K&B would look
    similar but ignorance is bliss as they say.  The proof is in the
    using of the Ditzler primer and you'd be the one to know whether
    any compatibility problems with our materials exists.
    
    Also of possible concern [to me] is the note that says "We have
    found that if one double coat of DP-40 primer is sprayed over
    Acrylic Lacquer and then allowed to set overnight before applying
    another coat of primer or a topcoat, lifting can occur."  This could
    possibly produce some negative results when doing repairs to a ship
    painted with acrylic lacquer.
    
    Adios,	Al

    Al,

    Do you know of anything that can be done with Ditzler paint to produce
    a flat finish for things line anti-glare panels?

    Glenn

    Glenn,
    
    My experience has been that sprayed on Ditzler acrylic lacquer
    naturally dries flat `til rubbed out or overcoated with clear to
    achieve the gloss.  Of course, it wouldn't stay flat for very long
    as ehaust residues and just the action of cleaning up after flying
    would soon produce a shine.
    
    I know of no flattening agent to mix into the paint, though one
    may certainly exist.  What I'd do in the case of the anti-glare
    panel [assuming the remainder of the ship is to be glossy] is simply
    to mask off the panel and overshoot it with a coat of K*B epoxy
    clear mixed with satin hardener...this'll flatten it and it'll stay
    flat.
    
    Adios,	Al

    Al,

    I had in fact noticed the few precautions that Ditzler mentioned on the
    spec sheet, and was, quite frankly, surprised.  I've only used the primer 
    on bare metal of some of old car parts and have had no "real"
    experience spray'n the product over other finishes.  My "guess" is that
    some people reported these "incompatibilities" and Ditzler felt
    obligate [to cover their behinds] to make mention... I got a kick out
    of their "work shop" remedies.

    On metal,the adhesion far EXCEEDED any other surfacers/primers I've
    ever used, and any paint that went over the primer a couple of 
    years ago still looks great.  So,  my expectations are that I might get
    these kind of results over silk span or any other covering.    Do any
    of the characteristics represent those possessed by the alleged  K & B 
    primer?? ie. color, viscosity etc... Do you suppose K & B is fill'n
    their cans with something else... Ditzler???

    In any event, I'm going to try it on the Citabria when I get back from 
    vacation... Switzerland!!
    
    I'll keep ya posted.
  
    Brian
    
    P.S.  Any good photos from the fly-in??

    Glenn,
    
    The most of my painting experience comes through the use of Dupont
    products, and they DO cary a flattener.  "Most" of their products
    work with Ditzler so ya might try it and let us no how it works.
    When you us the flatener, you want to do some experimenting prior
    to the "real thing"  Different colors look VERY different with the
    same proportions of flattener.
    
    If you want to stay away from epoxy finishes, you might try Clear
    acrylic enamel with the flattener... This would stand up to the
    fuel much better than the lacquer.
    
    /Brian 

    Re: .-2..., Brian,
    
    I've never seen a spec sheet on K&B primer so I couldn't begin to
    make comparisons as to viscosity, etc.  I _do_ know, however, that
    K&B is white while the Poop-sheet on Ditzler DP-40 says its primer
    is pale green in color.  I kinda' doubt that K&B=Ditzler.
    
    However, a local hobby shop owner got ahold of a similar [looking]
    epoxy primer several years ago which could be bought quite economically
    by the gallon.  He purported that this was the exact same thing
    as K&B but I found it not nearly as easy to apply and [especially]
    to sand so I rather doubted his claims.  There's little doubt that
    K&B has its primer [and other paint products] packaged by _someone_
    but it's a well kept secret, to say the least...and, understandably
    so; who'd buy K&B if it got out that you could buy the same product
    for half the money direct from the manufacturer?
    
    I'll be very interested to hear how the DP-40 works in modeling
    applications.
    
    Adios,	Al 

    Good grief!  I've probably missed it somewhere in the last 200 replies,
    but I'll go ahead and ask anyway:
    
    Are there any hints on painting plastic and aluminum that I should
    know about?  I've decided to make my Clod Buster chassis a bit easier
    on the eyes (and the camera), as black plastic with a little red
    trim and various chunks of aluminum are a bit boring.  The first
    thing to paint was the Gates cells that bolt onto the sides, which
    are some kind of molded, soft black thermoplastic.  I had a can
    of yellow Testors spray paint, so I took them outside (no place
    to paint inside) on some newspaper and started spraying.  The batteries
    have all kinds of ribs and channels (so you can interlock them and
    such) and other intricate details, and it seemed like no matter
    how many coats I put on, some of the black plastic (especially on
    sharp corners) still shows through.  I didn't get the last coat
    or two on as it started raining, but I didn't do a very good job.
    Should I have tried to use a primer coat or rough up the surface
    (which might be just about impossible without a sandblaster), or
    just hundreds of really thin coats, or should I try a brush and
    a can?  Any ideas?
    
    Another question I have is about painting aluminum.  I'm making various
    parts out of different thicknesses of aluminum sheet stock, and I'd
    like to paint some of them, should I do anything special to make sure
    the paint sticks?  I made a clock years ago and after putting on about
    10 light coats of dark blue metallic spray paint on the aluminum
    front panel I was bolting the bezel on and it just broke a large
    flake off right down to the metal.  I'm planning on using washers
    where fasteners attach, should I do anything else?
    
    How long should paint dry before you reattach the painted part?
    By the time I get home the batteries and one plastic bracket I painted
    will have been in the furnace room (about 90 degrees) for 24 hours,
    which ought to be long enough, but in the future I may not be so
    patient....  On the other hand, I don't want permanent fingerprints
    on my pride and joy!
    
    Thanks :== fn(response)
    
    Willie 

Re: .-1

>    Are there any hints on painting plastic and aluminum that I should
>    know about?..............................................The first
>    thing to paint was the Gates cells that bolt onto the sides, which
>    are some kind of molded, soft black thermoplastic.................
>    Should I have tried to use a primer coat or rough up the surface
>    (which might be just about impossible without a sandblaster), or
>    just hundreds of really thin coats, or should I try a brush and
>    a can?  Any ideas?

* Willie, I assume we're talking about a finned battery box/case of some sort,
not the batteries themselves.  The problem you had with the paint shrinking 
away from sharp edges is quite common, particularly when using enamels or 
other slow dry/cure paints; the pigment simply migrates away from the edge be-
fore the paint-vehicle can dry.  Dusting-on several coats of lacquer would 
probably have produced the desired results but, if you started with enamel,
it's too late..., yer' committed.  My suggestion would be to spray a smooth 
coat or two of K&B epoxy primer over the whole mess; the high viscosity of
the primer will prevent running away from the sharp edges `til the primer's 
cured.  Then, a coat or two of the yellow should cover with no problem...,
fortunately, weight is little consideration for the Tyke.  Even if you decide
to switch to lacquer, I'd still recommend using a K&B primer undercoat as 
lacquer can attack/craze many kinds of plastics and the primer will serve as 
a barrier against this.  BTW, _DO_NOT_ try to apply lacquer over enamel!  It
will make a terrific mess of things...I speak from experience.
    
>    Another question I have is about painting aluminum.  I'm making various
>    parts out of different thicknesses of aluminum sheet stock, and I'd
>    like to paint some of them, should I do anything special to make sure
>    the paint sticks?  

* Painting aluminum has always been a problem, and not just for modelers. Like
full-scale aircraft manufacturers, I've found the most acceptable results are
attained by using a zinc-chromate primer.  This can be bought in most hardware
and/or paint stores...it's the funny, lime-green colored stuff and it comes in
spray-cans..  Pre-sand the aluminum with 400-600 wet-or-dry sandpaper [used 
wet] to produce a satiny finish to the metal...this provides some "tooth" for
the primer to adhere to.  Assure that the aluminum is totally clean and dry,
then spray on the zinc-oxide primer; apply as smoothly as possible as the 
stuff doesn't like to be sanded [use wet-or-dry _wet_ if you have to sand].
Once an even green tone is achieved [usually 2-coats], paint as desired.

>    		.........I'm planning on using washers
>    where fasteners attach, should I do anything else?

* Sounds good...there's not much else you _can_ do.
    
>    How long should paint dry before you reattach the painted part?

* This depends strictly upon the type of paint used; it can vary from a few 
hours for lacquer to several days for enamel.  If the Testors paint you used 
for the yellow is a gloss-enamel [and I expect it is], several days or a week 
or more in a warm, dry environment may be necessary, especially in a _thick_ 
flim.  Even then, it may only be surface-dry and heavy handling could pro-
duce smears and fingerprints.

>    				.......but in the future I may not be so
>    patient....  On the other hand, I don't want permanent fingerprints
>    on my pride and joy!

*  Yer' best defense against this is to use a rapid dry/cure paint.  Lacquer
is the easiest to handle but K&B [or Hobby-Poxy] epoxy paints would, by far, 
be the most durable.  These cure [chemically] tack-free in one hour or so and
cure to porcelain-like hardness overnight.  Also, to my knowledge, they will
not attack any kind of plastic, particularly if shot over K&B primer.
    
>    Thanks :== fn(response)
    
>    Willie 

* Pornada amigo...,     

      :
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Al,
    
    	Thanks much for the reply!
    
>    * Willie, I assume we're talking about a finned battery box/case of some sort,
> not the batteries themselves. 
  
    Well, actually, it's the batteries themselves, instead of putting
    the cells into individual cases and then assembling them inside
    another case to make up a battery, they mold the case around the
    bare cells.  Keeps the price and weight down....
    
>    if you started with enamel,
> it's too late..., yer' committed.
  
    I should be committed, the paint started chipping off as I was bolting
    the batteries back onto the chassis, but with the black plastic
    peeking through the yellow paint, it gives it that
    construction_equipment look, so I think I'll leave it for now and
    use your suggestions for the second battery pack (when I figure
    out where they are going to go).
    
    I'm going to have to give up on McManis Hobbies, they have had stuff
    on backorder since I bought the Clod Buster, and I suspect they
    have never heard of K&B paints and primers.  Does Tower carry that
    kind of thing?
    
    Thanks again for the reply, I was gonna paint the new
    roll_cage/antenna_mount tonite, but maybe I'll wait till I come
    up with some decent paints.
    
    The Great Willie.
        

    I'm happy to say I got a compressor (sort of).  One of my friends
    owns a body shop and has bunch of small compressors laying around
    unused (because he worked the heck outa' them previously).  So,
    he gave one to fix and keep.  It is a Sears 150 PSI 3-hp twin cylinder.
    It needs a motor and rings in the compressor unit.  Luckily, he
    gave me an almost complete second compressor unit that has the parts
    I need.  So with a little elbow grease and a motor, I'll have one
    heckuva nice unit.  Oh, I guess this means I'll have to buy an eight
    ounce touchup gun, but for the price of the compressor I'm not gripin'.
    
    Chris
    
    BTW - I now have access to lots of auto paint too!  
    

     Congratulations Chris! I'm sure ya won't be able to live without a 
     compressor once ya find a few of their endless uses.  The Sears 
     compressor, if I'm not mistaking, uses a Cambell-hausfield pump.  It's
     the same unit I bought from Lincoln supply in Nebraska when I put my 
     compressor together.  I'm sure you'll get the great service out of yours
     that I've had with mine. They are also quite nice/easy to work on.

     The motor might set you back a few $$$ if you opt to buy new.  I'd 
     do some poke'n around before you do such...

     Best luck with your new toy!

     /Brian

    Cripes, a _three-horsepower_ compressor?  220V 30A at least just
    to turn it over!
    
    That's probably a little more compressor than you need to touch
    up a model airplane.  In fact, you could probably run a scale 
    carrier catapult off that compressor.
    
    Ohmygoodness, what am I *saying*?!?!?!
    

    A regulator WOULD be in order, methinks.....
    
    ( I can somehow visualize Chris being blown around the
    room at the end of the airbrush hose the first time he 
    fires it up  ;^)
    
    Doug

    Chris,
    
    Tell us more about this windfall compressor you came into [BTW, I'm
    jealous].  With a 2-cylinder compressor/pump, this thing must include
    an accumulator tank, or does it?  Coming from an auto paint shop,
    I'd expect it to have such things as a pressure switch, pressure reg-
    ulator and moisture trap...does it?  If it does, you gotcher' self
    a first-class rig there!  You can do everything from airbrushing-to-
    filling the tires on the jalopy-to-spray painting the backyard. :8^}

      :
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    RE: THE LAST FEW REPLIES
    
    Thanks for the obvious envious input.  Here's are some more details
    as I proceed in getting it in working order. Enquiring minds want
    to know (AL, that's you :-) )
    
    Last night I picked up a hose, assorted quik-connectors, an 8 oz.
    detail gun, and some engine degreaser to clean my prize.
    
    So, last night I drug the greasy mess out in the driveway and sprayed
    the entire can of foamy engine degreaser on the thing.  The directions
    said no preheating necessary (that's why I bought this stuff) and
    let stand for 5 min. or more.  I gave 15-20 and hosed it down. 
    The stuff did'nt even make a dent in the gunk on it.  So, I ended
    up using a brush and 1/2 a gallon of solvent on it, but I got it
    pretty well clean.
    
    After I got everything clean enough to handle/exam, I found that
    it was indeed a Sears 3 HP model, 150 PSI, 20 Gallon Tank.  It has
    a manufacturers tag on the tank, but the name escapes me.  There
    is a large "manifold?" on the top of the tank that feeds: an automatic
    pressure switch, a tank bleed/emergency pressure release valve,
    and regulator/pressure gauge.  I removed the compressor unit and
    the manifold assembly for further cleaning/repair.  I plan to get
    into them tonight.  
    
    Yes, I know about the oil/water separators and plan to get one.
    Now if I can locate a motor (my buddy thinks he may have one) I'll
    be on my way.  Rembrandt look out!
    
    Chris

    Al,
    I know here in the East, and I expect where Chris lives, we don't
    have to paint the back yards.  We can grow grass to get a little
    color.  I guess not having as good flying weather in the winter
    is partially made up for by these conveniences.
    
    Ken

I just finished my Big Stick 20.  It was the first time I with super super
Coverite and painted that with acrylic lacquer.  I had three problems.

1.  Warping - how do I straighten a wing that is covered with cloth
    and painted with lacquer?  I assume that I can't just heat and twist?

2.  Sanding - I sanded the cloth over the ribs to much.  It looked fine
    after the primer and before the lacquer - but when I applied the lacquer
    it looked terrible on the edges of the ribs.  Apparently I had fuzzed
    up the cloth which felt and looked OK - but after applying paint - it
    looked like unsanded pine.

3.  The K&B Poxy clear coat did not adhere to the acrylic lacquer well.
    Anywhere there is stress (like around the hold down bolts or on the
    elevator where I banged it (Hanger rash) the clear coat separates from
    lacquer and you can peel it off like a sun burn.  Any ideas what I might
    have done wrong here?  The lacquer had cured for approx 24 hours and I
    sanded lightly with 1000 grit automotive sand paper (dry not wet) to take
    off the fuzz feel.  When I mixed the K&B I sprayed it right away.  Kevin
    Ladd said that the Ditzler 2 part epoxy paint tells you to set it set
    for 1/2 hour after initial mix before spraying?  I didn't have a problem
    on the glider with the same procedure and as far as I know the only 
    difference was the color (Red vice White) and the fact that I lightly
    sanded first - I don't remember sanding the glider before the clear
    coat.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    Sorry to hear you ran into trouble.  What kinda' acrylic lacquer
    did you use?  Did you use a plasticizer?  K&B gloss or satin epoxy
    clear?  What knida' primer?
    
    1. Warping:  Believe it or not, you CAN use heat to straighten a
    wing.  Heat softens the paint temporarily (unless you get it _too_
    hot) and loosens/shrinks the Coverite, just like plastic films but
    maybe not quite as much.
    
    2. Sanding: Yup', you sanded too much over the ribs.  This is a
    tricky operation and all I can say is hang in there 'til you get
    the feel of how much is enough.  For yer' current problem, the only
    fix is to re-prime/sand, prime/sand 'til the fuzz is gone.
    
    3. Clear not sticking:  I can't imagine what happened here.  I (we)
    use K&B clear over Ditzler acrylic lacquer all the time and have
    never had a peeling problem or any other problem with adhesion.
    If we're not dealing with a compatibility problem here, my guess'd
    be temperature and/or humidity at the time of application.  Epoxy
    does strange things when the temp is below its recommended minimum
    application/curing temperature, usually aroung 70-75F.
    
    Hope ya' get it straightened out.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

>    Sorry to hear you ran into trouble.  

Well - the only reason I wasted my time doing this elaborate paint job
on a sport plane was to learn by my mistakes - better here than
on the next plane.

>What kinda' acrylic lacquer did you use?

Acme.

>Did you use a plasticizer?  

Yup - the one you recommended - but hey - that is a variable.
On the glider I didn't own a plasticizer yet????

>K&B gloss or satin epoxy clear?

K&B gloss

>What knida' primer?

K&B - but the clear coat is peeling from the lacquer.  Primer is
4 pounds of paint below this problem.
    
>    1. Warping:  Believe it or not, you CAN use heat to straighten a
>    wing.  Heat softens the paint temporarily (unless you get it _too_
>    hot) and loosens/shrinks the Coverite, just like plastic films but
>    maybe not quite as much.

I'll try it.
    
>    2. Sanding: Yup', you sanded too much over the ribs.  This is a
>    tricky operation and all I can say is hang in there 'til you get
>    the feel of how much is enough.  For yer' current problem, the only
>    fix is to re-prime/sand, prime/sand 'til the fuzz is gone.

Don't want to fix it - just want to do it right next time.
    
>    If we're not dealing with a compatibility problem here, my guess'd
>    be temperature and/or humidity at the time of application.  Epoxy
>    does strange things when the temp is below its recommended minimum
>    application/curing temperature, usually aroung 70-75F.

Temperature was kept around 70F.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    Everything seems, then, to point to some incompatibility between
    the acrylic lacquer (Acme?) and the K&B clear or some deficiency
    in the paint.  I (we) have certainly never had any such difuglety
    using Ditzler.  BTW, where'd you buy the ACME paint?  From Wile
    E. Coyote??  ;8^}
    
    Seriously, I don't know where else to point except to the paint
    itself.  You might want to give Ditzler a try next time, but experiment
    on a piece of scrap, prepped, primed, painted and cleared _exactly_
    as you intend to do the model _before_ committing yer'self to yer'
    next pride 'n joy.  Were you to still have the problem, we'd obviously
    have to look elsewhere for the problem.
    
    I didn't dismiss Kevin's thought's about letting the mixed clear
    stand for some time before shooting, however, I've never done this
    myself or heard of anyone else doing it with K&B...I simply mix and 
    shoot immediately.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    I have a comment regarding clear overcoat peeling.
    I would think the problem would be associated with applying
    the overcoat before the laquer base had dried sufficiently.
    Laquer dries by solvent evaporation, where as epoxy hardens by
    catylitic action. I think you have trapped the gasses associated
    with the laquer drying causing a poor bond between the epoxy and
    the laquer base. I would think that it would be appropriate to
    allow the better part of a week for the base to dry before putting
    epoxy over it. The amount of time you have to allow is going to
    vary depending how much the paint was thinned, how thick it was
    applied, if retarder was used to slow the drying an so on.
    
    Wayne Field

    Re: .-1, Wayne,
    
    You just might have something there.  I know, in the case of the
    scale ships me and my R/C buddies are involved with, several weeks
    time elapses between color coats and final clear coats as weathering 
    and final detailing must be done after painting but prior to the
    clear binder coat.  It could very well be that such a drying period
    is _necessary_ before applying epoxy clear over lacquer.  Kay, you
    might want to experiment with this idea. 

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

>< Note 288.214 by PNO::CASEYA "THE DESERT RAT (I-RC-AV8)" >
...    
>    1. Warping:  Believe it or not, you CAN use heat to straighten a
>    wing.  Heat softens the paint temporarily (unless you get it _too_
>    hot) and loosens/shrinks the Coverite, just like plastic films but
>    maybe not quite as much.

Well I flew the big stick 20 this weekend for the first time and had to put a
lot of left aileron trim in.  Even after that the plane seemed to have slightly
sluggish left aileron and very very sluggish (sometimes depending on how I
was oriented relative to the wind - almost ineffective) right aileron.

Does this make since - my warp was on the starboard wing in a direction that
would give washout?

Anyway rather than make the mechanical adjustments match the trim settings
I cranked op the iron and tried to take the warp out.  At first I got it too
hot but after I turned the iron down I was really impressed with the way
it would shrink up.  Remember I complained before that Super Super Coverite
didn't have enough strength to pull warps out of wings - well it pulls a lot
better after you have primer, lacquer, and clear coat on it.  Anxious to try
it again now.

P.S.  I wasn't sure about the procedure for repairing this wing.  Since
      I scraped up a wing tip during on of my landings I ironed a small piece
      of Coverite over the bad spot - right on top of the paint.  Then just
      brushed on some lacquer.  Seems OK to me - but this is not a show bird.
      Is this the right way for quick and dirty repairs?  What is the procedure
      for repairs on a show bird?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    RE: .-1, Kay,
    
    Everything makes sense up 'til the point where you say ailerons are
    sluggish/ineffective in _both_ directions.   
    
    If the starboard (right) wing is washed out, that'd give you a built-
    in right-bank.  Dialing-in left aileron trim to compenstate and
    level the wings should make left aileron somewhat sluggish (as it
    still has to overcome the built-in right bank) but, right aileron
    should be _very_ fast as the aileron is now working _with_ the built-in
    bank. 
    
    If, as you describe, both directions of aileron are slow, I'd have
    to guess that you need more aileron throw.
    
    Glad to hear you were able to successfully straighten the wing using
    heat.  I'd fly it again _before_ fooling with aileron throw but,
    if they're still slow in both directions, you can be assured that
    more throw is needed.
    
    Yer' quick-patch technique is as good as any.  For show-quality
    finishes, the problem is the thickness at the area of overlap that
    must be somehow feathered in.  For this reason, I always try to
    make a patch in an area that is completely bounded by balsa, e.g
    L.E., T.E. and ribs.  I'll cut out an entire rib-bay, even for a
    small puncture, as it's easier to sand/feather the ovelap in over 
    a solid base.  Also, I use a fresh #11 X-Acto to scrape paint/primer
    away from the overlap area to reduce the thickness of the overlapped
    Coverite.
    
    From there on, the process is the same as when the area was originally
    finished except the repaint must be carefully feathered into the
    surrounding painted area with the airbrush and careful wet-sanding
    between coats.  A final clear binder coat should pull it all together
    and make the patch virtually invisible.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

I thought I'd throw in a few tid bits of my "first" model painting experience.  
...so here goes.

It didn't really want to "experiment" on my "winter project," pronounced
pride and joy, so I scratch built a "stick" type plane and used the wing
from an old trainer.  I covered part of it with mica film, and the other
with Coverite's Super Silkspun covering , just as an experiment.  I used
Ditzlers DP-40 two part epoxy primer, and yes, you must wait a minimum of
one half hour for the two parts to mix... not that you have to stir the stuff
for a half hour, but the must sit before the application.  CAUTION, make sure 
you have adequate ventilation before using the product.  Those fumes are NOT
goodness, nor are any other for that matter.

I was pleased with the epoxy primer for model applications, but I've used no
other, so I can't draw any comparisons.  I am, however, using it in the future.
I covered the model with Ditzler white lacquer, followed by red trim that same 
afternoon(in lacquer), and had absolutely no problem with the tap taking off the
coat of white.  I used Ditzler Flexative (DX-369) in the lacquer. I scuffed the
whole thing down with steel wool and light sand paper after priming, after the
white, and after the trim went on.  If you are careful, the "lip" of paint on
the trim be just barely noticed to the touch after sanding, but careful, you
can loose the sharp edge.  At this point, the whole model took on a
dull-looking finish. I waited until this past weekend to put the coat epoxy
on, simply because of the lack of time, but judging from Kay's experience,
that was for the better.  Even though it didn't say so on the can, I left the
K & B epoxy clear coat sit for one half hour because I decided it couldn't 
hurt! 


The Plan looks pretty good for a first, and I thought "fancy" masking was a 
relatively easy task... However, I took a few notes:

o If using Mica-film, or any other film that is not furnished with adhesive,
  try NOT to get excess adhesive around the seems, the primer does not stick 
  to the Balsarite very well.  If there IS excess, get it real hot with the 
  iron. ...it tends to harden, and the paint takes better.

o I talked to Dan Thomson on Saturday, and he does a nice job with lacquers,
  but with a clear Acrylic Enamel top coat.  The advantage I see to this is
  that it you can add the Flexative to it.  The disadvantage is that you must
  remove all the enamel when making repairs.  Lacquer over enamel makes an
  awful mess for those that haven't tried it!

o Also, there are very nice Urethanes, including clears, that are fuel proof.
  They are "somewhat" like an epoxy(it uses a catalyst) but one can use the 
  Flexative for a more durable finish... just a thought.

o I have NEVER cared for Acme or Martin Senior paints in any automotive 
  application that I've had a hand in.  I am, however, particular to both
  Ditzler and Dupont.  This is probably do to just habit, but I think the
  latter two are more generally accepted in the industry.

o Incidentally, the lightest pattern ship at the NATS last year was painted in
  Acrylic Enamel, so it goes to show that it can be done...


Well, that's got it licked... I don't think I could ever use those plastic 
iron-on finishes after these results...  

Thanks for all the help in 288.***** guys!

/Brian

    brian, i too have just recently been fiddling with ditzler's dp40
    for the first time.  i'm not as far along as you tho, am between
    primer coats.  actually the first coat is all but sanded away and
    3m putty used to fill those pinholes too big to hope to fill with
    more primer.  i agree with all your observations, but cause i am
    dragging this painting out so long (blame it on bad weather and
    lack of spray booth and wicked obnoxious fumes) i have the additional
    worry of letting the epoxy cure too long before spraying more coats.
    instructions on can say not to wait more than a week.  i'm ignoring
    this mostly cause i have to but also cause i cant believe a second
    coat of primer won't have some bite into the first well cured coat
    if its been "roughed" with sandpaper.  ok maybe polished is
    a better word for the result of wetsanding with 400 grit.

    last summer i hired a guy to sandblast and primer some rally wheels
    for my car.  he used epoxy primer and had the same suggestion,
    "don't wait too long to spray the top coats".  there must be
    something to this.
    
    kevin

    Re: .221, Brian,
    
    Thanx fer' the testimonial and all the good information!!  Glad
    everything went well for you.
    
    Re: .222, Kevin,
    
    I hope yer' not referring to the Baker P-47 regarding yer' ignoring
    the directions on the primer.  That'd be a helluva place to have
    the finish screw-up on ya'!    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

Kevin,

I really wouldn't worry about getting a coat over the epoxy primer as long
as it is within a reasonable amount of time... not longer than three 
months or so.  The primer is really a "bare" metal primer that is designed
for applications such as your rally wheels, body panels, etc.  When I've
used it in auto applications, it sometimes went as long as six months.  Just
make sure you give it a good sanding.(if you are sanding it all off, I'd use
another coat just for uniformity).  In auto applications, the standard 
procedure is to use a surface primer over top of the epoxy primer... you
might consider this if you are not "real" concerned about weight(again, if
for nothing else, just for uniformity in base-coat color).  Also, the 
surfacers are designed to fill the "imperfections, and you might not have to 
go with the spot putty??

How'd you like the 3M spot putty/glazing compound??  I find it difficult to
sand, and much prefer the Dupont (white) spot putty, or the Nitro-stan
red oxide glazing compound (comes in a yellow tube).  If you're displeased
with the the 3M products, you might give the others a whirl.

Did your wheels hold up well??? That is one of the best tests/applications
of the primer...  It's always worked well on bare metal body panels etc, and
has been my experience that only the very finest auto "restorer" use it...

/Brian
                                                                
    ... I think Ditzler has added the "procaution" to the can regarding
    the one week time limit... take it for what it's worth, but I've
    never had a problem with it as long as it's scuffed down...

    al, the airplane in question is my cap21, not the baker p47.  if
    all goes well, i may well use the dp40 on the 47 as well.  so far,
    so good...  oh, and still waiting for f'ing retracts...
    
    brian, i will be adding a second very light coat of primer.  i am
    concerned about weight.  when putting the first coat on, i could
    see pinholes (or fiberglass cloth holes) here and there, and spraying
    more paint on them seemed to only make them deeper!  that is, the
    paint just seemed to surround pin holes, not fill them.  i think
    i'm gonna be happy after the putty and hours of wet-sanding,
    course i never really know what i've got till the paint is on.
    
    my only complaint about the 3m putty is that it either shrank in
    deep holes or sanded too easily - there are spots where i wonder
    if the hole is really filled.  again, will know more after next
    (hopefully last) primer coat as fingertips and eyeballs can't possibly
    detect such slight imperfections, and if so primer will probably
    fill these.  (i'm really rambling now). 
    
    the epoxy primer on my wheels is holding up incredibly.  they're
    pontiac rally II's with metal medallions in center held with 6 vicious
    clips.  only last night i reinstalled them, accidently scraped off much
    lacquer but nowhere did the clips gouge thru the epoxy primer to metal.
    really, really impressive.
           
    kevin

Oooo Kevin,  Glad to hear you got such good results over metal.  What kind
of Ponch'o are you sport'n????

/Brian

    brian, my poncho is a '68 firebird 400.  bought it in florida in
    1983 and didnt get it restored and on the road till last august.
    i'm slow but also it was a lot of work!  it forced me into rc
    retirement all last summer as i scrambled with all the finishing
    touches.  i'm taking a rest before the next car, thinking big
    like hemi or '69 ta - its gotta be real collectible to justify
    5 years of knuckle-bleeding.
    
    luckily i build planes faster.

    kevin

    Ah, Kevin.  I'm VERY partial to Firebirds.  I just sold my 1967 firebird
    400, and needless to say I was very sad!  Mine was not a southern car, 
    but it only had two owners and it had been stored since 1976.  Not that 
    storage is necessary good for a car, but at least it didn't have any wear 
    and tear on it.  I sold the car because I thought it was too much work to 
    restore and I feel that you must start with a "good" car unless you want 
    to spend LOTS of extra time and money.  I just helped a friend finish his 
    69 GTO and this car was a 6-7 years project that he worked on 
    diligently!!  This was, in large, due to the fact that he didn't start 
    with a clean rig!  I think he had to have EVERY panel replaced, and it 
    WASN'T a rust bucket either.  Dave Sumar did the body work, and if you 
    still need your done, I highly recommend him.  He, exclusively, builds 
    rods and restores classic autos.  In fact, he only flush welds and grinds 
    all his body panel so you CAN'T detect the weld BEFORE any paint goes 
    on!!!! (better than original?? ...perhaps!)  In any event, the GTO looks 
    nice, but after LOTS of "unnecessary" work, that could be avoided.  I'd 
    like to find a "new" firebird, 1967, and perhaps in a convertible, this 
    summer.  How plentiful were these things down south??  Perhaps "Big Al's" 
    country would be a good bet also.  Lot of sheet metal in Hemmings comes 
    from Arizona.  I'll have to see how it goes.  These airplane models can 
    get one preoccupied!
    
    What kind of 400 do you have??
    
    Have you bought anything from Aims Performance Engineering?  They are 
    located in Marlboro NH, and have some of the best selection of NOS and 
    reproduction Pontiac parts for detailing your car... right down to 
    original jacks, floor and truck mats, etc...  Steve Aims is a friend of 
    mine, (well, I guess he is a friend of a friend)  and I'd be happpy to 
    send you a catalog if you are interested.
    
    Well, enough rambl'n ...and this really doesn't belong here!! But, I'd 
    really like to see you "pride and joy" sometime!
    
    /Brian

    brian, never thot i'd meet a pontiac nut in the rc notes file. 
    at the risk of getting complaints about "inapplicable material",
    i'll go on.  "the bird" was in ragged shape when i bought it for
    $800.  it was ragged but clean and straight.  it had actually been
    repossesed and i bought if from a bank thru a towing service!  it
    was a long long drive to massachusetts.  the car had been hit in
    right rear quarter.  used camaro panel with fb louvers welded in.
    havent bought anything at ames, have used year 1, the paddock,
    chicago fb + camaro, cat, mike in spencer who since sold out to
    cat, and a whole bunch of independents.  would be proud to show
    you the bird.  maybe some decrcm meeting.
    kevin

OK - I used the Al Casey finish (Super Coverite, K&B Primer, Acrylic Lacquer,
K&B clear coat on my Big Stick 20.  Saturday I was practicing rolling circles 
and POW - I angle parked it in a tree.  After getting it down hours later with 
a bow and arrow I now have repaired the wing and have some dumb questions.

Do I have to spray this with something or can I fly with new fresh bare
Super Coverite?  The reason I want to do this is because I hope to have
the Aeromaster into paint stages soon and I would like to get lazy and
primer the patches when I primer the Aeromaster, lacquer the patches when
I lacquer the Aeromaster, clear coat the patches when I ...

It is on the port side away from the exhaust but I fear the Coverite
is too porous to trust without at least primer.  What say you experts?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    You might get away with it if it isn't directly exposed to exhaust
    residue.  Bottom line, you could always remove and replace the patch
    when ready to prime/paint.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

Just thought I'd mention that while grubbing about in our local
hardware store I noticed a Black & Decker compressor that puts
out 1.0 cuft/min at 30 lbs for $55.  Nice price, though it may
not be a steady enough source for airbrushing.  On the other
hand, it couldn't be worse than my Miller, and that works pretty
good.

    Re: .-1, Dan,
    
    The method you describe is very similar to the one Ted White's used
    for years.  He applies the glass with a coat of K&B clear epoxy,
    brushed on, then follows up with a second brushed coat of clear
    after the initial coat cures.
    
    Next, Ted mixes up a slurry of K&B clear and microballoons and brushes
    on a single heavy coat which is sanded almost completely off.  A sprayed
    seal coat of K&B primer, sanded nearly all off, completes the preparation   
    and color coats are subsequently applied.
    
    Resin and primer applied directly over balsa works but tends to
    be a little brittle and may crack in time.  Also, there may be a
    noticeable difference in lustre between glassed and non-glassed
    surfaces that may-or-may-not bother you.  Were it me, I'd glass
    everything but the shrtcut you suggest may work out OK for your
    particular application.
    
      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

I certainly like that method of glassing the plane over using
resin! Anything to get away from hassling with resin.

But I would think that a significant amount of the strength
gained with resin/glass is lost using the epoxy paint.  And when
we're talking about a large plane built with 1/8 and then sanded
in places down to 1/16 or so (as Al has described with the Mig-3
-- didn't you Al?), that seems like a serious loss of strength. 

Personally, I would just as soon put heavy silkspan down with the
clear epoxy paint than the glass -- for all the good the bond
would do you, at least the 'span would be easier to fill!  I
think this is how what the control liners that we mentioned
somewhere else do it.

Which reminds me...I picked up a '72 issue of Vol 1 of the RCM
flight training course.  Under Finishing Methods they describe a
method of sanding the bare balsa with progressively finer grades
of sandpaper to #400, then putting on multiple coats of dope and
sanding.  Then laying down silkspan, and more coats of filler and
dope and sanding...Guess they didn't build many models back then!

>    	Another question. Do you see a problem with omitting the glass
>    on the control surfaces, using the clear K&B and primer directly
>    on the balsa. No real reason for doing this way other than general
>    laziness.

On my Big Stick 20 I didn't glass the Ailerons and I just used K&B poxy
primer and lacquer and K&B clear coat.

That was a mistake - the Ailerons flex too much.  I should have glassed
them and it would fly better.  Also you can detect that the control
surfaces do not have the same smooth surface as the rest of the model.
For what it's worth - I won't skip glassing the control surfaces again.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

I am going to put some vinyl trim on the side of the Super Aeromaster.
The question is should I put it on after the clear coat or before.

I would rather do it before cause I'm scared it would peel up the
clear coat - remember I had clear coat peeling up on the Big Stick 20.

What do the experts say?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    John,
    
    One thing everyone needs to take to heart and remember is that glassing
    with .6-to-.75 oz. cloth adds verrry little (if any) strength to
    an airframe.  The strength must be built-in, not "painted on" later.
    
    The primary reason for glassing is to establish a uniform finish
    base, period.  Yes, some rigidity/ding-resistance is realized but
    very little additional strength.  As you say, using silkspan might
    accomplish about the same thing but probably wouldn't provide as
    hard/durable a finish and is a bit fussier to work with.
    
    
    Kay,
    
    If you intend to use K&B, Hobby-Poxy or some other epoxy clear (except
    for Black Baron which IS NOT epoxy), I'd apply the trim first and
    let the clear seal the trim in place as well as sealing the finish.
    If using some other kind of clear, experiment with it over a sample
    of the trim material; if it doesn't attack/craze the trim material,
    again, apply the trim and clear over it after its in place.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

Here's an idea I used last night.

If you have an air brush and a spray gun.
When you are done painting load the unused
one with thinner and use it to clean the used
one.  That is if you use the spray gun then
when you are cleaning up fill the air brush with
thinner and spray clean the inside and outside of
the spray gun.

Works great.
If you only have an air brush - then here is a reason
to buy one of the really cheap air brushes.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    Great idea...wish I'd thought of it!!    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    I have a question concerning glassing.  Are you hand painting the
    resin on or what?  I've never glassed before, and I've been thinking
    about glassing the Chipmunk!
    
    Just give me a quick rundown of what to use and how to do it.
    
    Thanks
    Ken

    Ken,
    
    I use K&B Resin (polyester); I brush it on then blot the excess off
    using a roll of _single_ ply toilet paper, rolling it with the
    wrap so it doesn't unroll...when saturated, tear it off and start
    fresh.  Detailed instructions for this and other methods of applying
    glass appear earlier in this topic.   

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Ken,
    		I use K&B or similar clear exopy paint. However I'm
    afraid that you won't be able to fiberglass that Goldberg chipmunk.
    Fiberglass cloth is used on solid or sheeted surfaces. It's my
    understanding that the Goldberg Chipmunk has open structure on 
    the rearward portion of the fuse and on the wing. 
    
    
    					Tom

    
    	Tom,
    		You're right about the open areas.  But what if I just
    glass the leading edge and the forward fuse area, would that cause
    a severe weight imbalance?  Maybe I ought to stay with the program
    and just use Ultracote!  Thanks for the info guys.
    
    	Ken

    Ken,
    
    Again, let me iterate that the _primary_ reason for glassing is
    to seal the wood-grain, thereby establishing a finish-base.  This
    being the case, you can see that it's be redundant to glass any
    sheeted area of the wing or fuse and then go back over it with some
    covering material as this material, itself, establishes a base from
    which to build a finish.  Remember, again, that .6-.75 oz. glass
    adss verrry little strength to the structure, only some rigidity/
    puncture resistance to the wood.
    
    Glass should _only_ be used over areas where _NO_ subsequent covering
    material will be used; in fact, I'm not sure that the adhesion of
    film coverings wouldn't be severely compromised by glassing first.
    
    So, _where_ do you glass?  Over any solid or sheeted areas that
    will receive no subsequent covering, e.g. fuselages (_except_ for
    open/stringered areas), all-sheeted wings, etc.  If the fuse is
    a composite of sheeted and open structure, I glass the sheeted areas
    but leave a 1/4-3/8" corridor at the edge(s) of the stringered area(s)
    on which to adhere the covering material which will cover the open
    structure (I prefer super-shrink Super-Coverite).
    
    ATTN: ALL WHO HAVE YET TO TRY .6-.75 0Z. GLASS CLOTH, PLEASE READ/HEED:
    
    One final time: _do_not_ think of glassing as a method by which
    to strengthen the structure...strength _MUST_ be built-in, _NOT_
    brushed/painted on!!  Glassing is a very good means of establishing
    a good, hard finish-base and little (if any) more!!!
                                                                           
      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    
    	Al, I didn't mean I would glass and then cover over the glass.
    Just like you mentioned, I would glass the sheeted parts and cover
    the open areas.
    	On the fuse the open area is behind the cockpit (all four sides).
    On the wing the open area is towards the center.  I would only be
    able to glass the leading and trailing edges and the control surfaces.
    	What I want to know, is this a good procedure or should I just
    stick to covering 100% of the plane.
    
    Note: By covering I mean using Ultracote.
    
    	I just like the looks of a glassed plane vs. a covered plane.
    
    Ken

    Ken,
    
    Yeah, I guess that'd work OK but you'd either have to match yer'
    paint to the Ultracote or work the Ultracoted areas into the
    paint-scheme as I'd advise against trying to paint over it.  I've
    heard it _can_ be done but I've yet to see a good job of it and
    the risk is pretty great if it doesn't work for you; paint peeling
    off all over the place and such.
    
    If yer' willing to go to the trouble of glassing/painting the sheeted
    areas, why not go the whole route and paint the entire ship, using
    Coverite, Super-Coverite or equivalent paintable, iron-on covering
    for the open structure areas?  Sure, it's extra work to prime/sand/
    paint the open areas but, if you like the looks of painted surfaces,
    why not go whole-hog??   Actually, it might be less trouble than
    trying to blend film covering and painted surfaces together.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    	Thats what I figured.  Before I got the idea of glassing I
    planned on covering the ship in white and painting the color
    scheme over it.
    	You mention Coverite alot, any reason?  I was going to use
    Ultracote due to the discussion around films else where in the
    notesfile.  Is there anything wrong with this brand as far as
    painting over it?
    	So what you are saying is you have to sand (lightly buff)
    the covering before painting for adhesion purposes, correct?
    That doesn't sound so bad.
    	I really appreaciate the advise because I'm at the point
    of covering right now, I'm just trying to make up my mind on
    how I want to do it.  It sure is a pretty plane!
    	Thanks again!
    
    Ken

    Ken,
    
    I think we need to establish that Coverite/Super-Coverite _is_not_
    a plastic-film as are such products as Monokote, Ultracote, Solarfilm,
    etc., et al.  The Coverite products are merely an iron-on, heat
    shrinkable covering material, intended to be primed/painted after
    application.  Coverite is a synthetic blended material, somewhat
    similar in appearance to the silkspan coverings we used to use back
    in the silk 'n dope days.  Super-Coverite is a woven synthetic fabric
    more like the silk, rayon, silron materials we used during the same
    period.  Both require sealing/priming and light sanding prior to
    painting and cannot be used without such process.            
    
    The plastic/vinyl iron-on films, on the other hand, are pre-colored and
    are intended to be ready for use immediately after application with
    no other priming/painting required.  These materials _do_not_ accept
    paint readily and must be scuffed in one manner or another to provide
    some "tooth" for paint to adhere to _prior_ to painting and, _then_,
    only accept paint with widely varying degrees of success.  As I
    said, I keep hearing that it _can_ be done but I've yet to see what
    I thought was a reaonably successful job of it.  This is why I
    suggested that you _do_not_ attempt to paint over a film covering
    as a less than perfect job will, most likely, be a miserable experience
    with paint flaking/peeling off and/or worse.
    
    For these reasons, I'd suggest again that you either go for an
    all-paint or all-film finish and avoid mixing the two methods.

      |                                                                
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

>< Note 288.245 by PNO::CASEYA "THE DESERT RAT (I-RC-AV8)" >
>                -< ONE MORE TIME ON GLASS vs STRENGTH........ >-

>    One final time: _do_not_ think of glassing as a method by which
>    to strengthen the structure...strength _MUST_ be built-in, _NOT_
>    brushed/painted on!!  Glassing is a very good means of establishing
>    a good, hard finish-base and little (if any) more!!!

Well - to a "small" degree I disagree with Al.
Glass won't add lots of strength like Monokote does to an open wing but...
On the Aeromaster where the wing was sheeted with pretty thin sheeting
I was concerned that simple handling would tend to punch little holes
in it (like picking the plane up by the center of the top wing and feeling
your finger tips crush balsa).  So I think glassing adds strength in 
a dimension that you normally don't care about for flight reasons.

I glassed the leading and trailing edges and super Coverite stuck
just fine to the "sanded" glassed area.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Re: .-1, Kay,
    
    Exactly!  That's what I was referring to when I said glassing _does_
    add some "hardening/puncture-resistance" to the wood.
    
    BTW, I _would_ opine that glass adds more strength "anywhere it's
    practical to use" than does Monokote or other plastic-films.
    Obviously, glass can't be used to cover an open-structured wing
    or fuse but, over sheeted areas, it certainly adds more than a film
    might.  

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    One suggested process, (Never tried before) might be to use a paper
    over the open structure to start with. This would be glued in place
    with clear dope. Once this was done and dry sand the edges and then
    apply the .06 OZ. cloth over the entire structure. Might work if
    the paper doesn;'t sag. Experiment first.
    
    						Tom

    Al,
    I would like to add, for the benifit of beginners in this file
    that I believe when you are talking about glass not adding any
    strength to the plane, that you should not confuse .6 oz glass
    with the 2 oz glass used on the center section of a wing.  That
    used with epoxy does, I believe, add a significient amount of
    strength, and should be highly recommended.  I have seen several
    wings split in the center section that were not glassed.  

		________
	 /	  __|__  
	=========[_____\>
	/	__|___|__/  BREAK A BLADE,
			    Ken    	

    Re: .-1, Ken,
    
    Absolutely correct!  That's why I've tried to be careful to mention
    .6-.75 oz cloth when I make the statement that no appreciable strength
    gain will be realized by using glass as a finish base.  As you say,
    however, heavier weights of cloth do _indeed_ add strength, which
    is the purpose for using them; .6-.75 oz., though, is about the
    same weight/consistency as silk which, I think we'll agree, adds
    very little strength to a structure.  
    
    The obvious question then, is "Why use glass then...why not just
    use silk?"  The answer is, simply. in ease of application; glass
    cloth will conform to compound curves and/or very irregular shapes
    with ease where silk will not.  "So, why not use heavier cloth and
    get strength along with a good finish base?"  Again, simple...it's
    a matter of weight; an airframe covered with 2-3 oz. cloth would
    become untolerably heavy.  Bottom-line, you _cannot_ build a
    crash-proof airplane; everything you try to do to add strength also
    adds weight, which means impact will be harder in a crash and damage
    potential proportionately higher.  Yer' best bet is to build light!
    After all, an anvil is pretty tough, BUT IT WON'T FLY!!

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    I was going to ask the obvious question, but -.2 came along!
    
    Guess I should read "them" numbers (.6 oz) more carefully.
    
    ajai
    

    re .255 - 
    
    Even an anvil will fly if you put a big enough engine on it, won't
    it??
    
    

    Re: .257, Jeff,
    
    So I've heard.  But not very long or very good, I'd bet!!  ;B^}    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    F4 Phantom:
    
    	Proof that, given big enough engines, even a brick will fly.
    
    

    F4:
    
    	You got it wrong: Its a coke bottle fitted with bent out of
        shape wings.
    

    Re: .-1,
    
    There are actually two types of Coverite: the first, just plain
    Coverite, is a paper-like material made of synthetic fibers on some
    sort while Super-Coverite is a woven synthetic material on the
    order of nylon, rayon, etc.  Both have heat-activated self-adhesive
    backing and are heat shrinkable like the plastic films.  Application
    is very similar to the films and the only surface preparation (other
    than a thorough sanding and filling of dings/dents) is the optional
    pre-coating of the structure with Balsa-rite to enhance the adhesion
    of the covering to the model.  A third type of Coverite is called
    Perma-gloss Coverite; this is like Super-Coverite except it is
    pre-primed/painted. in a variety.  This material does _not_ produce
    a super-glossy finish like the films; the weave is still clearly
    visible and the finish is rather matte in appearance unless some
    type of clear overcoat is applied.  I, personally, don't care much
    for the Perma-gloss approach.)
    
    Either of the other Coverites will require priming/filling with a primer
    (like K&B epoxy primer), sanding and, finally, painting.  This has
    been gone into in some depth earlier in this topic.  My recommendation
    is that you print out this entire topic to read at your leisure
    and sort out the information you desire.  If, after that, you find
    you still have questions, by all means give us the chance to answer
    them for you.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    For all of you would be sprayers looking for a good deal on a
    compressor...
    
    "Builders Warehouse", a discount supply store with a store in 
    Dartmouth, MA and Nashua, NH (rt 101A) is having a grand opening
    sale...
    
    A PUMA brand (never heard of it) 3/4 horse with 7-1/2 gallon tank
    with automatic switch is on sale for only $149.
    
    I do not yet know the specifications, as it did not mention them
    in the ad, but I will be checking them out tonight...  The sale
    price starts today...
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    

        I've seen PUMA stuff, and am not impressed with it. It seems to be
        one of the "off brand brands" that places like Builders Square
        carries. I'd think twice before buying. 

    Well, I checked it out last night... here are the specs...
    
    	3/4 hp
    	115V
    	3.3 cfm
    	2.7 @40psi
    	2.3 @90psi
    	115 psi working pressure
    	150 psi max pressure
    	7.5 gal tank (Cast iron)
    	automatic pressure switch
    	seat safety valve
    
    Bob, I appreciate the comment...  I bought it last night before
    I read your comment..  Oh well...
    
    It seems to work fine.  We will see how it does when I start trying
    to do anything productive...

    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    OK, there has only been a brief mention of spray booths so far.
    
    What setups do people have to contain/exhaust fumes and overspray
    while still maintaining a relatively clean and warm environment??
    
    Obviously, it also has to be large enough to be able to rotate 
    a fuse and/or wing.
    
    Also, what do people do with the object while it is drying??  I
    mean, how do you prop it up so that you don't ruin the finish??
    Or do you only do one surface at a time, let it dry, then flip it
    over??
    
    Because my garage is not heated, I think that the best bet for winter
    painting for me will be to build a spray booth out of 1/2 ply that
    is basically a 6'x 3'x 3'.  This is more than big enough for my
    planes, but I am not sure if it will give me enough area to work
    in.  The box will have a cover, lights, and a fan.  This would fit
    in my current work room and I could easily vent it to the outside.
    This way, I should be able to maintain a fairly constant temperature.
    
    What else should I be considering for the booth??  It seems to simple
    so far...
    
    How does everyone else do it??
    
    thanks,
    jeff
    

    Jeff,
    
    'fraid I'll hafta' defer to any other noter who has, or has used,
    a spray booth.  That's a luxury I've never had and, perhaps, don't
    really need in our climate out here.
    
    I just hang the item to be painted on a piece of baling/mechanics
    wire and spray outdoors or, occasionally, in the garage.   

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

I sectioned off one end of my workshop next to the bulkhead door going
out of the basement.  It is about 5 ft wide and 8 feet deep to the door.
I put a door on two by two rails as a work table, then I stapled 1.5 mil
plastic drop cloth on the ceiling and just push it aside as a door in.

Above the bulkhead door I cut a hole for exhaust and put a bathroom 
exhaust fan in the middle of the room.  Could use a higher powered fan
that vibrates less - but this one was $10.00.

I try to do any massive sanding in the same room to contain the dust.
Consequently my paint room is very dusty dirty rather than dust free - 
but that doesn't seem to cause a problem so far.

I slide the work-table-door back and forth on the rare chance I want to
open the bulkhead door or to go under and spray or sand the other side
of something big.   I'll try to draw one:

	          dryer vent above
                     ++  bulkhead door
=========+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=======
#                    ++                         #
#                    ++                         #
#                    ++                         #
##                   ++                        ##
##                   ++                        ##
#....................++.........................#
#....................++.........................#
#....................++.........................#
#....................++.........................#
#....................++.........................#
#...............Door.++.........................#
#....................++.........................#
#....................++.........................#
#...................FFFF........................# FFFF = Fan
#...................FFFF........................#
#...............................................#
#...............................................#
#...............................................#
##                                             ##
##                                             ##
#                                               #
#                                               #
#                                               #
#                                               #
#                                               #
#                                               #
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
               plastic paint drop cloth

    Dan,
    
    Make _double-sure_ that the Rustoleum finish is fuel-proof.  Paint
    a test panel and test it with raw fuel; allow the fuel to sit on
    the finish for a time and be sure it doesn't attack the paint.  I
    thought I'd heard/read somewhere that Rustoleum was _not_ fuel-proof
    and required a clear-coat of K&B or polyurethane to be protected
    from raw fuel.  Better to be safe than sorry!

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Dan,
    
    Just be sure not to allow the model to rest against a rag or anything
    soaked with raw fuel (like during transport).  This _could_ cause
    problems.  I've had the Formula-U on the Yeller' Peril curdle up
    and come off under this circumstance; another of the numerous reasons
    I thoroughly dislike this or any other polyurethane paint.   

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Well, just a few follow up comments, even though I have yet to 
    try out spray painting (but I am planning to!!)
    
    - I called Dave Brown Products (note 288.193) to order some 
    "Flex-All" plasticizer.  At $2.95 for the bottle, I figured that
    the service charge on plastic that they would be losing money, so
    I just asked what the shipping charge would be.  Instead of that,
    she is just sending me the stuff with an invoice to be paid when
    I get it.  Not bad for a first time customer!!
    
    - We had talked a little about painting booths.  I believe that
    Al Ryder and I have devised the best alternative...  For the booth
    itself, we are going to use a large shipping carton from a refrig.
    or large piece of furniture.  Then we mount an el-cheapo 2 bulb
    shop light in the carton.  We have an old dryer blower that we will
    use to suck the air out.  The great part about Al's idea of using
    a cardboard box is that it is easily modified for more or less access
    and stands and holders can easily be placed on the entire beast.
    Plus, its light, semi-disposable, cheap, and big.
    
    Now, if I could just find enough time to finish sanding and cover
    my Bristol, I will be ready to go.
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

Re -.1

>    - I called Dave Brown Products (note 288.193) to order some 
>    "Flex-All" plasticizer.  At $2.95 for the bottle, I figured that

You can use a few drops of Castor oil for the same effect.
    
>    shop light in the carton.  We have an old dryer blower that we will
>    use to suck the air out.  The great part about Al's idea of using

A word of caution. Paint uses solvents; solvents are flammable; a bit of heat,
a spark from the fan motor -- instant scale bomb damage. 

John

>>  A word of caution. ... a spark from the fan motor -- instant .. damage. 

    Caution well heeded.  And hopefully considered.  This blower is
    a squirrel cage from an old laundry dryer, so the motor is not in
    the air stream.   Hmmmmn, and I think it has no brushes to spark
    nor a capacitor-start relay either, but I'd have to re-examine it.
    
    Alton who-dislikes-the-excitement-of-an-exploding-environment-
          so-much-that-most-of-his-designs-operate-under-water

    I've been passing over this topic but think I missed some valuable
    information....... Spray booths.
    
    A fellow modeler in my club has a built in booth in his cellar.
    What he did was convert an old coal bin that haden't been used for
    years. The bin was made by three stone walls with a door entrance
    in one of the walls. He cleaned it out, added an exhaust fan and
    intake vent with filter and framed a door case with door. The last
    touch was to appl several coats of paint to all surfaces. One
    interestingpoint is that the intake vent is at the top of one wall
    near the ceiling and the exhaust fan is down on the floor. The thought
    was to create a positive airflow from top to bottom to keep any
    dust down. He hasn't painted in the room as yet. Still finishing
    his lattest project.
    
    
    Tom

    
    Wow - making a spray booth out of a coal bin!  Kinda like putting
    a clean room in SPO!!! :-) :-)
    
    Bill

    OK, lets talk glassing again...
    
    I started to glass my Bristol Bullet.  Its going OK, but the I'm
    having a problem on the tail feathers... They are all made out of
    1/4" balsa.  Would people please comment on how they work the seam
    between the 2 sides??  I am also finding that the glass sticks better
    to a rounded edge rather than the squared off trailing edge.  Obviously
    this is due to the sharp corner.  Any suggestions on how to cover
    it correctly?
    
    Thanks,
    jeff
    

    Jeff,
    
    I cover the bottom surface of the stab/elevator first so that overlaps
    will occur on the bottom.  Obviously, this option isn't available
    on the fin/rudder so just pick a side to start on and have at it.
    
    I overlap about 1/4" inch or so right on the radius of the lead/trail
    edges, thus minimizing overlap on the flat surfaces.  Yes, regardless
    of the resin used, keeping the cloth nailed down to the curved
    edges 'til the resin kicks is a problem.  What I've begun doing
    is to apply the resin from the center of a surface, working it outward
    but staying away from the edges at first.  Once the cloth is laying
    nice and flat, I use a water-dampened finger to roll the cloth around
    the curve then tack it as necessary with CYA.  Otherwise, you'll
    find yourself trying to keep tamping the cloth down with your fingers
    'til the resin sets.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    I've never applied glass cloth as a covering, but when I glassed the
    center section on my last wing, I put a piece of wax paper over the
    glass/epoxy to help me smooth it out (rubbing my fingers on the wax
    paper).  Then, I just left the wax paper on overnight until the
    epoxy set.  The wax paper peeled right off, leaving a smooth surface
    when done.  (I tried to peel off the wax paper before the epoxy set
    and it made a mess.)

    This approach may be useful to you as the wax paper could be pulled
    tight over the glass to hold it in place while the epoxy sets.

    Disclaimer: The surface was not really smooth as would be desired
    (I think) for covering uses.  A little sand paper may do the job.
    I suggest you try the wax paper trick on some scrap material first.

                       _____
                      |     \
                      |      \                          Silent POWER!
      _        ___________    _________   |            Happy Landings!
     | \      |           |  |         |  |
     |--------|-  SANYO  + ]-|  ASTRO  |--|              - Dan Miner
     |_/      |___________|  |_________|  |
                      |       /           |     " The Earth needs more OZONE,
                      |      /                       not Caster Oil!! "    
                      |_____/

    Well, I am now a convert very much in favor of glassing with polyester
    and the "Al Casey" method.  
    
    At first, I did not comprehend the purpose of the toilet paper so
    I skipped it on the first few parts of my Bristol.  The parts came
    out OK, but not very consistent.  I had some runs and some bubbles
    and it was OK, but I wasn't real happy about it.
    
    But then, using the tp trick, results got 1000% better!!  Now I
    see what the tp is doing.
    
    Never again will I use iron on covering over a nasty solid complex
    curve!!  The stuff works so easily!!  I'm sold!
    
    Now to see how the spray painting goes...  I need to build my spraying
    booth, but that won't take long...
    
    Thanks for the info in this topic Al C. and everyone!!
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    

    Jeff,
    	I would be interested in you (and anyone else out there) come
    up with for a spray booth.  I have been procrastinating due to laziness
    and lack of a clear idea of how to do it.  I have only one alternative
    in my basement and that is to build the booth up against a bulkhead
    opening.  That's what I plan to do.  I would like to make it break
    down into a set of flat panels for storage and I need to provide
    plenty of lighting and ventilation.
    	Any ideas of materials to use, etc?
    
    Charlie
    

    OK, I am starting with the shipping carton from an SA482, a 4 disk
    high disk drive cabinet.  The box stands is about 2'x3'x7'.
    
    The top will be enclosed by duct taping a furnace air filter on.
    A false bottom will be built about 12 inches from the bottom out
    of another filter.  This filter will be easily removable as it will
    also be a drip pan..
    
    I am going to cut the front to make an access door.  Inside, next
    to the door I am going to mount a 4 foot shop light vertically.
    This will provice good light in the direction that I am spraying
    in, and should help if from getting too covered with paint.
    
    I will have a few cross bars at the very top so that parts can be
    hung to dry/work on.
    
    Now, under the false floor (filter) I will have an opening to the
    blower.  The blower is an old cloths dryer blower.  The exhaust
    is vented outside.
    
    The only decision I have not made yet is if the doorway will be
    closed up via the cardboard or clear plastic.
    
    This unit can also be placed on its side, although I don't have
    enough room for that.
    
    Theoretically, once I have finished painting and I seal up the door,
    only filtered air can get in, thus improving the finish.  It should
    also keep the majority of the smell outside.  The filter in the
    bottom will reduce the amount of paint that makes it to the blower.
    
    Neat, huh??  So far, the only direct cost will be the air filters
    and the light, so this will all be done for less than $20.  (granted
    I got away cheap with the blower...  Thanks Al Ryder!)
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    

    Be careful of that old, sparking-at-the-brushes motor in a
    flammable gas environment.  Sometimes, the best surprise is no
    surprise at all. 

    Re: .285
    
    Instead of mounting the shoplight INSIDE, cut a window in the box and
    use some 3 mil clear plastic which can be replaced as the overspray gets
    on it. Just some duct tape around the edges and you have light through
    a cheap, replaceable window and no worries of paint on the bulb
    contacts and those tacky colored speckle bulbs ;')
    
    With the light on the outside the heat/air circulation should be easier
    to deal with and you can always just turn it off when you're closed up
    to dry.

    
    Jeff, 2X3X7 sounds small for a spray booth.  When I'm spraying I
    first like to find an orientation that makes it easy to hold and
    see what I'm painting, and get a good angle with the spray gun
    and the light. Depending on what you are painting this can vary.  I
    would be bouncing the wing or fuse off the sides of your booth
    constantly.  It may be a question of technique (or lack thereof
    on my part!) but have you tried going through a dry run with wing
    and spray gun in hand, imagining you were actually spraying, in that
    small an enclosure?
    
    I sectioned off a corner of my playroom with plastic and used a
    window fan to suck the fumes out, and much preferred having full
    freedom of motion while painting.  The only disadvantage was having
    to wear a respirator while spraying.

    You may be able to get by with your booth but I'd recommend a dry
    run before you get too far along to confirm that it's big enough
    for your needs.
    
    I think Charlie was talking about a booth more like what we did
    in my basement (a walk-in), except making it easier to assemble,
    disassemble and clean.  I am also interested in building one.
    Any good designs out there?
    
    Bill

    
    The motor is brushless - Thanks for the concern...
    
    Yea, I considered putting the light outside and using a window...
    I think I am going to put it inside anyways...  We will see what
    happens...
    
    Yes, it is small for a spray booth.  I would love to be able to
    devote a portion of my house to making a larger one, but we don't
    have the room.  I think the booth is plenty big.  I plan on suspending
    the wing/fuse from the top of the box.  I can then rotate the piece
    and get all sides.  We will see what happens!
    
    This entire plane is a "dry run".  I plan on painting it using this
    booth.  If I don't like how it comes out, then I will work to make
    it better.
    
    Thanks all!
    cheers,
    jeff
    

>Al,
>	Just picked up a Marks' Jemco (now Dynaflight) 60 sized P-51 from a 
>friend of mine. One of the Stars and Bars decals has been pretty well orange-
>peeled and blurred from fuel. How can I get the old decal off of monocoat?
>I would like to put a new one on and overspray with epoxy.

>Thanks,
>Dan


Dan,

Good question.  I think I'd try various thinners/solvents that I KNEW (by
testing on monokote scraps) wouldn't attack the monokote but might break down
the decal material.  I'd suggest K&B thinner, acetone, etc. for starters.  Can 
you tell whether the decal is a water-transfer type or a peel-and-stick pressure
sensitive item?  If it's the latter, the above won't work as the decal is made 
from materials similar to the monokote.  If this is the case, try slowly/care-
fully working the decal off with WD-40...Yep, that's right, WD-40.  It works
great for removing residual tape-goo, pressure sensitive adhesive, etc. by turn-
ing the stick-um to a jelly-like consistency, after which you can carefully 
peal the decal off.

To use, carefully lift an edge of the decal using a razor blade, shoot a little
WD under and wait a bit, then peel back a bit and apply more WD.  With a little
time and patience, repeating this procedure will get 'er done without harming 
the base finish in the least...just clean up the WD with alcohol or whatever and
yer' set to apply the new decal.  Try it, you might be amazed...and let us know
how you make out.

BTW, you should be able to tell whether the decal(s) are water transfer or
pressure sensitive.  A water transfer is extremely thin, sticks/seals down
verrrry tight and, generally, has a thin outline of clear material.  Pressure
sensitive decals are much thicker; a definite sharp ridge can be felt at their
edges and you can readily raise an edge by picking at it with a razor blade.

Hope this helps,     

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    
    	Also you can try some Model RR stuff that removes paint and
    decals. On a Q tip you can lift the decal without any damage to
    the paint underneath on RR stuff so I would think the same would
    work on the monocoat. Water stops the reaction with paint and/or
    decals.
    
    	If `Dan' is in this area I can loan you my bottle to do it.
    The stuff ain't cheap but is reusable for soaking plastic. Product
    is Scalecoat Paint Stripper, comes in a quart bottle, is a greenish
    color and costs about $8.00. For what you would need it wouldn't
    be worth a whole bottle to do it.
    
    	Regards,
    	Art

    
    First, a quick update...  I am now sold on using super coverite.
    The stuff went on like a charm with barely one swear being uttered.
    (My wife commented on my good behavior!).  The wing that I was
    covering has swept back wingtips, and I was not looking forward
    to the problems that can cause.  But it went on smoothly and the
    few wrinkles came right out...
    
    The spray booth is almost complete.  All I need is about 15 minutes
    and 1 dryer hose clamp.  It looks like it is going to work well..
    
    ---
    
    OK, let's talk about base coats.  Back awhile, Al gave a number
    of good reasons for using a silver base coat.  Howeever, I am building
    a WWI scale ship, so silver is not a valid base color.  I need to
    use a "doped linen" color.
    
    I am comfortable with that except for one thing...  It was stated
    that silver would act as a barrier to UV light to protect the fabric.
    Will a base coat of off-white protect the ship in the same way?
    Of should I add something to it??  Or should I paint the off-white
    over the silver??
    
    Thanks,
    jeff
    

    Jeff,
    
    iff'n you want the UV barrier, you must use silver first, then put
    desired base coats and/or colors over the silver coat.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Ugggg..  Oh well, so much for keeping it light!  The majority of
    the plane is in the doped linen color...  
    
    After I get some silver for my current project, I will have to do
    some tests before I go to paint the Nieuport...
    
    What is it about silver that makes it a UV barrier??
    
    jeff
    

    Jeff,
    
    I'm not sure I know for certain but I think it's the high metal
    content of silver paint.  Silver covers quickly and, therefore, 
    is comparatively light but, if weight's a real concern, I, person-
    ally, wouldn't think twice about eliminating the silver undercoat. 
    
    Few models last long enough for UV rotting of the fabric to become
    a problem in the first place, though I understand that we all _expect_
    them to last forever.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    I finally tried out the spray booth last night...
    
    There is not enough air movement by the fan...  The mist swirled
    around the box and out the door.  I guess it is out to the garage
    for me...  I have one other fan that I am going to try though...
    
    Last night I just tested out spraying K&B primer with the airbrush.
    As warned earlier, it does not have enough coverage for priming..
    Tonight I am going to try the larger gun..
    
    Question...
    
    As I said, I was using K&B primer.  I was surprised that the catalyst
    had the consistency of thinner.  After stirring part A for a long
    time, I mixed them together (1:1).  The resulting mixture was plenty
    thin (much like water) and I sprayed with that.  
    
    In past notes, it is said that this mixture should be cut 50/50
    with thinner.  Did I do something wrong so that it was supposed
    to be thicker than it was??  Or is it thinned so that that much
    less primer goes on??
    
    Thanks!
    jeff
    

    Jeff,
    
    Nope, you did everything right.  The fact is that, when initially
    mixed, K&B primer is sprayable.  But, is a short while it begins
    thickening up and thinning would then be necessary for spray
    application.     

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    i bought a small vial of "magic masker" with which to paint the
    national insignias (cocardes (sp?)).  my intent was to paint this
    stuff on the wing and cut out the shape of the insignia with a
    blade, peeoff the inside, and paint.  but after some testing i've
    found the stuff to be unusable.  its too rubbery and the blade must
    be very sharp to not pull, and when peeling away its near impossible
    to not accidently peel away what i want to leave behind. its too
    rubbery and doesnt adhere well enough.  what else is available for
    this and where can i get it?
    
    thanks
    kevin

    Kevin, The best thing I've seen is low tack shelving paper. Draw
    out the design you want and then cut out whatever needs cutting.
    The peel off the excess and you have a mask template. Position and
    paint.
    
    
    Tom

    Kevin,
    
    I've used liquid masking film, just as you described, many times
    with great success.  I'm unfamiliar with the brand you mentioned
    having always used some I got from Fliteglas Models years ago. I
    think Southern R/C Prod.'s also sells the stuff.
    
    Is it possible you applied the stuff too thick.  It behaves somewhat
    as you described if applied too thick and/or if it isn't completely
    dry.  I thin it to spraying consistency with water and apply it
    with an airbrush, then allow _plenty_ of time to dry before working
    with it...two or more coats may be required.  Caution: this stuff
    peels off easily in film but, where it feathers down to overspray,
    it's a pain to remove.  To correct this, roughly tape off the general
    area to which the marking is to be applied...this assures that the
    resulting film will be of consistent thickness and will peel away
    cleanly.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

I've been painting up a storm lately.
I have a lot of newspaper print on my paint form masking
and using magazines and newspapers to cover.

How do I get the messy newsprint filth off the paint?
I tried simple green - didn't do much.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    
    Hmmm, very interesting...I assume you mean the ink etc. transferred
    to the painted surfaces.  Sounds like yer' getting the newsprint-mask
    pretty wet with paint - can't say I ever had that happen.  In the
    future, try not to get the paper so wet with paint.
    
    Meantime, I'm not sure I know just what will take the ink off that
    won't attack the paint.  I'd suggest you try isopropyl-alcohol;
    if that doesn't work, try some rubbing compound.  If all else fails,
    the ink's probably managed to permeate the softened paint and the
    only way to remove it is probably to wet-sand it out with [say]
    600 wet-or-dry.  If it comes to that, don't fret...repainting isn't
    necessary (unless you cut clear through the paint) as the final
    seal-coat of K&B clear will restore the gloss (or matte) finish
    and you'll never know where you sanded.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    i've been painting/masking like crazy and i havent had that problem.
    been using magazines...
    
    related question, if k&b clear gloss can "restore" gloss from
    wetsanded lacquer, can flat k&b clear "degloss" glossy lacquer???
    
    sort of like how much wood would a ...
    
    kevin

    Kevin,
    
    Yes.  Applying satin K&B clear over glossy anything will result
    in a satin/flat/matte finish.  One word on K&B satin: the satin
    hardener MUST be mixed THOROUGHLY before mixing with the clear and
    you should slosh it around in the spray-gun/airbrush frequently
    to keet the flattener suspended in the clear.  If you don't do this,
    the resulting finish will be spotty, alternating  betwixt semi-satiny/
    semi-glossy.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

Re: .302

Kay, 

In the future you might consider going to the local newspaper office and asking 
about getting some unused newsprint paper for your use. My wife's girl scout 
troop got some in Worcester and I know Holyoke used to sell it CHEAP for use 
as scratch paper for school kids.

If the ink ain't on it, it won't transfer...

What are you doing covering with Silly Putty anyway?? ;^)

    Re: .306, Eric,
    
    I can't really answer yer' question except to restate the obvious:
    brushing catalyst is intended for brushing and spraying catalyst
    is intended for spraying.  I know that paint mixed with spraying
    catalyst is nearly impossible to brush with decent results so I
    assume the opposite could well be true.  Suffice it to say that
    I tend to believe the manufacturers' recommendations when it comes
    to paint compatibility and the like so I've stuck rigidly to the
    catalyst specified for my particular application and been careful
    NOT to tempt fate.  One's new pride-and-joy can be turned into an
    incredible mess in an instant by failing to read/heed the directions.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    i would guess the biggest diff between spray thinner and brush
    thinner is drying time.  for lacquer, there are several grades
    which each have a different drying time used to compensate for
    warm or cold spraying conditions.
    
    kevin

I've been using acetone to clean K&B paint out of my spray guns. I haven't
used the K&B primer yet but I don't see why it wouldn't work. The only problem
with acetone is that it doesn't disolve the paint quite as well as straight
K&B thinner. What I do is use the acetone for the major part of the cleanup
then spray about an ounce of thinner through the gun just to make sure it's
cleaned out.

Glenn

    I do exactly the same as Glenn described; do the bulk cleaning with
    acetone then finish up with a small quantity of K&B thinner as I
    don't trust the acetone to remove all traces of the epoxy primer or 
    paint and my spray equipment is far too valuable to take any chances
    with..    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

Here's a copy of an off-line response to Bill Lewis on some painting questions
he had which may be of general interest:
................................................................................

Buenos dias, Bill,

Good to hear from you...'s been awhile.  I think I can provide good info on
all yer' questions as yer' working with the materials I know best...here goes:

{Upon test sanding Hobby-Poxy primer (he may've meant K&B) with 400 paper, Bill
 remarks........:}
>    interesting how chalky it seems to be - I assume that's part of what
>    makes it a good primer?

* You bet!  Epoxy primers (I assume Hobby Poxy is essentially the same stuff as
K&B) are extremely workable, filling well, though it may appear at first that 
it's too thin to do so, and sanding remarkably easy.  This makes the task of
sanding most of the primer off a more palatable one.  I love the stuff and would
use nothing else.

>    Anyhow, I have some  questions.  First, how long do you have to
>    let Ditzler dry before you can mask and shoot the next color?  
>    I was hoping to do both colors tonight.  

*  You can handle Ditzler acrylic lacquers pretty much the same as you would
dope regarding drying times etc., though I believe Ditzler may dry just a tad 
slower than dope.  Then again, I use a medium flash thinner and a plasticizer
(which I recommend) which probably serves to retard the drying a bit.  I'd be
cautious about masking before about 24hrs. after painting but you might get
away with it if you use a low-tack tape and work carefully.  I'd suggest that
you prepare and paint a test panel at the same time you paint the model, then
test the adhesion and behavior when taped prior to trying it on the model.  A
low-tack tape should probably be used in any case though I've been perfectly
successful using high-tacks, shelf-paper, etc.

>				........Second, what do you prefer for
>    clear coat?  I have K&B hobbypoxy clear, Aerogloss dope clear, or
>    could get Ditzler clear when I get the other colors.  Which do you
>    recommend?  I know you have to be careful with dope clear over
>    pin-striping tape (which I may use), how about with the others?

I prefer the epoxy clears as they provide a hard, durable outer shell that won't
crack, peel or yellow with age.  Aerogloss clear would be my last choice due to
poor adhesion and the fact it attacks tapes, decals, etc. and is incompatible
with so many things other than it's own family of paints.  Ditzler clear seems
to be good stuff; it's extremely high gloss with the same ease of application as
its pigmented relatives.  Chuck Collier used all Ditzler acrylic lacquers, in-
cluding clear coat, on his Staggerwing with excellent results.  However, Chuck's
running a gasoline engine so I have no knowledge to the clear's glo-fuel resis-
tance.  If you already have it, I'd say go with the K&B epoxy after a light 
sanding with 600 wet (for maximum "tooth").

>    I hope I can get away with one primer coat as I am out of epoxy primer.

* That depends upon the degree of surface preparation and what base material
you used, if any, i.e. .5-.75 oz. glass cloth, Coverite, Coverall, ___-Tex. etc.
A well prepped surface may well require only one coat and this is the goal as,
the more fill coats required, the heavier the primer and resulting finish.

>    Oh yeah, one other question.  I have plenty of Aerogloss dope and
>    might not get to the store today for Ditzler (although I _do_ want
>    to try it this time).  If so, do you have any experience with
>    Aerogloss over K&B primer?  My first experience with Aerogloss over
>    super coverite was a disaster (didn't stick).  Is it just junk?

* I used Aerogloss for MANY years when it was the only game in town.  It doesn't
have the adhesion of more modern paints but I've used it over K&B primer with no
adverse effects. Just be sure the primer has adequate "tooth"...this is one case
where _too_ glassy-smooth can be a detriment.  I'd say to final sand with 400-
dry just prior to painting (if this looks too coarse, go to a worn piece of 400
or a piece of 600).  The main disadvantage to using Aerogloss is its relatively
poor coverage; Ditzler will cover in 1-to-2 coats where Aerogloss usually takes
4/6/8 coats before an acceptable degree of opaqueness is achieved.  Also (and
this is my main complaint), Aerogloss shrinks like the devil...literally FOR 
YEARS!!  Joints and minor flaws will magically reappear continually as the paint
shrinks...it can warp surfaces, pull away and bubble up in fillet areas etc.
Ditzler _does_ shrink in time but to a much reduced (and acceptable) extent as
compared to dope.  BTW, don't be surprized if you have to go to as much as 3-to-
1 thinner-to-paint ratio for spraying Ditzler...it's that densely pigmented.
Also, except for small touch-ups, minor dings, etc., don't try to brush Ditzler.
It doesn't brush worth a flip as it was intended to be sprayed only.
    
>    Some or all of these answers may be in the conference, if so my
>    apologies!  Thanks in advance!

* Frankly, I don't recall whether these points have been discussed or not.  It
seems as though they may have been but no sweat.  It's probably a good idea to 
revisit them anyway so I'm gonna put this response in Let Us Spray, if only for
drill.

Adios, amigo, and good luck,	Al

    
From:	LEDS::LEWIS         4-AUG-1989 14:02:30.78
To:	PNO::CASEYA
CC:	LEWIS
Subj:	RE: Got a question fer ya


    Al,

    Thanks MUCHO!  I did manage to get to the store and picked up a pint
    each of Ditzler white, dark red and dark blue plus a gallon of thinner.
    Fairly expensive - $9.20, $14.90, $11.10 and $7.80 in that order for
    a total of $45.15.  But I would expect to pay almost that much for any
    of the special hobby paints too.  There's an incredible color selection
    too!  The guy plopped me down in front of a book with literally hundreds
    of colors.  I picked some common ones that were already mixed.

    I hadn't seen your response before I left  so I don't know what kind
    of thinner I got, i.e. flash rate.  I have plasticizer at home, I think
    it's from SIG - hope I can use that (??).  I think I understand the
    value of slower flash rate because I've had problems with dope when
    it's humid and it captures moisture causing a cloudy appearance.  I
    guess humidity is more of a problem for us easterners than for you
    though.  The guy told me to thin 50% but I will take your advice since
    I usually find that I have to thin more than I expected.  I even thinned
    the primer a tad (but not much) and it sprayed a little better for me.
    To make sure I understand - you're talking as much as 3 parts thinner
    to one part paint, i.e. thinning 300% right?

    I keep confusing Hobby Poxy with K&B - all of the epoxy paint I have
    is K&B, not Hobby Poxy.

    Will take your advice on testing before masking.  This is a practice
    plane so I don't care a whole lot about the end result, but then again
    what good is practicing if you don't at least follow the steps properly?

    Will clear coat with K&B clear / gloss catalyst.  You didn't
    specifically say it but hinted that this might go over tape/decals
    without attacking them.  Is this true?

    I think the shrinking feature of Aerogloss you mention is the reason
    my paint job eventually cracked in many places.  I will save it only
    for use on some of my son's wood projects but no more airplanes!

    Man, the catalyst for that epoxy primer STINKS!  Had to retreat to the
    respirator while even mixing the stuff!

    Thanks again Al, and I'll let you know how it works out.

    Bill

    P.S. thanks for posting too - I was going to go that route but wanted
         to make sure you got the question today.

    
    My first experience with epoxy primer and Ditzler automotive paint was
    a complete success!  Once again the advice from this conference was
    priceless.
    
    Friday night I got home from work and noticed that I did not have any
    plasticizer after all - just retarder.  So I took a ride to Ray's and
    picked up the plasticizer.  Mentioned to him that I was going to try
    automotive paint and his comment was a sarcastic "good luck - stuff's
    too brittle".  "Isn't that what the plasticizer is for?"  I asked.  A
    vague response conviced me that he was just being his ornery old self,
    being very much set in HIS ways.
    
    After dinner I set down to finish the primer sanding I had started
    saturday morning.  As Al has stated, the stuff is a great primer as it
    goes on easily and sands easily.  Well, I did hit one snag.  It was on
    _way_ too heavy on the bottom of the wing, which I had sprayed first
    without thinning the primer.  Fortunately the rest of the plane had been
    sprayed with 40 to 50% thinned primer and sanded off easily with 400
    grit paper.  But the wing bottom was a real pain.  From Al's advice I
    concluded that I wanted to sand enough primer off so I could see
    through the translucent super coverite.  But sanding off a lot of
    paint and not damaging the covering over the cap strips is a real treat.
    I carefully and painstakingly sanded between the cap strips with 220
    grit paper to get most of the primer off, then went over the whole
    thing with 400 grit.  I knew it would weigh a ton if I didn't do it and
    this is a .20 size plane, so I realized this was my only choice other
    than recovering the wing.  Soooo, scratch friday night, because I was
    BEAT by the time I finished sanding the wing bottom.  But it did get
    done without any major damage to the covering.
    
    Saturday morning I got my first experience with Ditzler.  I started
    with white, thinning 200%.  This went on nice and wet so I stuck with
    it.  I didn't use retarder because I didn't know if my dope retarder
    would work with this stuff.  The weather was steamy out - very humid.
    I had two choices : 1) spray in the dehumidified basement and probably
    kill the family cat.  2) spray in the garage and live with the result.
    I liked option 1 but the rest of my family didn't.  Sooo, as expected
    I got some blushing when the paint dried.  But - as I've heard and read
    many times, it doesn't matter because the coat of clear will make that
    magically disappear!
    
    Two coats of white were plenty.  Al was right (of course), this stuff
    has a very strong pigment.  It would have taken MANY coats of dope to
    get the same coverage.  I lightly sanded in between white coats.
    Finished cleaning the spray gun just minutes before I had to get to the
    club field for the air recon attempt.
    
    After the disappointing afternoon, I headed home pretty tired and with
    ears ringing from chopper noise.  But, taking a look at the SS20 I
    decided I should keep up the momentum and get this paint job finished.
    I started masking for the color coat (red) using the old super sportser
    pattern Charlie and I had done up a while ago.  This time the masking
    went quickly as I had done it before and didn't really care much about
    how it came out.  To really test the ability of this paint to hold,
    I used regular 1/2" masking tape applied the length of the fuse for
    the red stripes.  "If I can pull this stuff off without taking the
    paint with it, it's a winner" I was thinking.  The stars and stripes
    were done by taping wide masking tape to a table, transferring the
    pattern to it using a pin, and cutting out the pattern in the masking
    tape with an exacto and straight edge.  Then I just stuck it into
    the surface to be masked and pushed the edges down with my fingernail.
    Masking was almost complete when my nine-year old son came down and
    reminded me of a promise to camp out in the back yard - time to set
    up the tent before darkness, so that ended saturday's work.
    
    Sunday morning I completed the masking (it was raining heavily so I
    figured the fun-fly was off).  Then it suddenly got nice out and I
    had to run off to the club field to compete.  I had hoped to finishing
    the SS20 for the fun-fly but it's just as well since it was windy and
    Charlie let me share his SS40 (which behaves a little better in the
    wind).  (There he goes rambling again.)
    
    Last night I finally got to shoot the red coat - again thinned 200% and
    with plasticizer added.  I didn't bother sealing the edges of the
    masking with white or clear since I didn't care about a little bleeding-
    I planned to pin-stripe the edges anyhow.
    
    This time one coat was sufficient for the cover I wanted.  Then came the
    acid test.  I was fairly carless as I pulled off the masking tape - the
    paint under it stuck to the coverite like glue!  I was VERRRY relieved
    to find that all the things people have been saying about using a good
    primer are really true!  We _do_ have a winner!!!  And with all the
    carelessness it turns out that the finish looks damn good!  Makes me
    wonder why I spend so much time thinking about it instead of just
    doing it!
    
    Tonight I plan to lightly sand the edges where the colors meet to knock
    off any ridges, then pin-stripe.  I will give this 24 hours to "set"
    and then shoot the clear K&B epoxy coat.  Can't wait to use clear paint
    that won't attack the tape, since with dope I had to spray verrry
    lightly in many steps to avoid attacking the tape.
    
    My only concern at this point is weight.  I did sand off as much primer
    as possible and minimized the number of color coats, so I _should_ be
    in pretty good shape.  But the final test will be when Charlie and I
    compare the weights of our SS20s (his is painted with dope), and (of
    course) how well it flies.
    
    Oh yeah!  I still have to tint my canopy!  I'll have to try to do that
    tonight too.  After it's all done I'll get a good picture of it to
    send out to the big guy in Phoenix.  Chances are with the luck I've
    been having lately it won't last long.  BUT - if any of my hinges come
    out I'll eat that airplane!!!!  They are all glued, pinned, _and_
    coverited in place!
    
    I hope these novice painter experiences will be of some help to
    someone.  Sorry if I rambled too much.  Thanks again Al et al.  Hey -
    Al et al - not bad, eh?
    
    Bill

    Bill,
    
    Glad to hear of yer' success with the automotive acrylic lacquer/K&B
    Primer technique I've been advocating...Gracias fer' the testimonial.
    
    As to weight, I'd guess that, generally, acrylics 'may' be a bit
    heavier than dopes but, since it's much more densely pigmented,
    thereby requiring less coats for complete coverage, the difference
    may well be a wash.  I believe the main area for weight gain (if
    one isn't careful) is the primer; application and sanding of same.
    One more time, NO primers are intended to fill gross surface defects
    and the surface area(s) should be built/sanded/finished as well
    as possible BEFORE covering/sanding/priming.  I prefer to brush
    the first coat of K&B epoxy primer as the brush will work the primer
    into any exposed woodgrain, pinholes, etc. better than spraying.  I
    then sand essentially all the primer off, leaving it only in such
    low places as may have existed.  Then, I spray a light even coat on
    and, again, sand it almost all off but leave a pale white patina
    over the entire structure.  If satisfied at this point (which is
    usually the case), I now spray on an undercoat (usually silver)
    and give the plane one last inspection for defects; any found are
    dealt with using automotive glazing putty (like ultra-thick primer
    in a squeeze-tube), then spotted over with silver.  Once satisfied
    at this stage, I go to the Ditzler acrylic lacquer color(s), thinning
    up to 300%, and applying just enough to cover (usually 1-to-2 coats
    depending on the color...white and yellow are the worst colors for
    covering and will require extra coats).
    
    With colors applied, markings, details and weathering are added,
    then the entire model is overcoated with a single, wet coat of K&B
    clear with either satin or gloss hardener as applicable to the model.
    Note that the gloss clear takes a bit longer to set up tack-free
    than does the satin so apply this final coat in as dust-free an
    area as you can and avoid a lot of commotion in the area 'til the
    epoxy "kicks."
    
    Using this technique, the finish on my MiG-3, a reasonably large
    ship of almost a thousand squares in the wing, added a mere 7 1/2
    ounces to the airframe weight, starting from a .6-oz. glass/resin
    base.  In my opinion, that'd be hard to beat, even with iron-on
    films.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    
    Al,
    Eric recommended thinning the clear epoxy 40%.  Is that about what
    you use?
    
    I got the pin-striping on the wing done last night.  First I wet-sanded
    with 600 grit to knock down the edges of the trim.  Messed up in
    a few places, taking off too much paint requiring touch-up.  Oh well,
    I know how to do it right _next_ time.
    
    Didn't have 1/16" pin striping tape at home so Charlie brought some
    in today.  I hope to spray the clear tonight.  Weather is cool and
    dry, perfect for the final clear coat.
    
    Bill

From:	PNO::CASEYA       "RC-AV8R"  8-AUG-1989 10:25:16.07
To:	LEDS::LEWIS
CC:	CASEYA
Subj:	RE: Looks good!

Buenos dias, Bill,

>Why do you glass the solid surfaces instead of just covering the entire
>plane with Super Coverite before painting?  It seems that you can get the
>same finish as glass with less effort... I'm wondering if it's a strength
>issue, or not wanting to deal with seams, or weight, or....
>Just curious.   Thanks for the advice, 

* You can, indeed, use Coverite and/or any number of other coverings as a finish
base in place of glass/resin.  It's just a personal preference of ours to use
glass/resin as it's harder, more durable and unlikely to ever loosen as most any
iron-on can.  Also, the way we apply it, we find it's as easy to apply as iron-
ons (perhaps easier) and is FAR superior in terms of going over/around complex,
compound shapes.  As you've already reasoned, it's lighter (when properly ap-
plied) than the iron-ons and doesn't present the seam problem to deal with.  But
the option is there for the builder to use whatever method he prefers for finish
base; I even know of Monokote being used wherein its's scuffed well by sanding
after application, then treated like any other material from there out, i.e.
primed with K&B, painted, weathered, clear-coated, etc.  Of course, it remains
susceptible to all the usual foibles of regular Monokote: bubbling, loosening,
lifting, etc.

Adios, amigo,	Al

    For my first attempt at painting I recently primed my Panic with a can
    of black baron epoxy primer. After a couple of days it's hard. Does not
    sand like primer. After reading some of these notes I understand that
    one should sand most all of the primer off. As I sanded the balsa that
    was not glass covered I find that the darn primer did nothing in the
    way of filling up the grain. Thus I will end up sanding off everything
    I sprayed on with no benefit of filling the grain. Gee how nice.
    I happen to be lucky to have a 2 HP air compressor. All I need is to
    buy or borrow a gun next time I decide to paint. Meanwhile I'm
    really going to enjoy sanding off all that crud that I sprayed on.
    Al least with the flat surfaces I'll use my palm sander.
    
    
    
    					Cheers, Dave
    

    Bill,
    
    Sorry I didn't answer yer' question re: thinning K&B Clear but I
    took a vacation day on the spur of the moment yesterday as Dan Parsons
    flew a Cessna Skyhawk over from Albuquerque yesterday, just to spend
    the day...he flew back early this AM.  Anyway, I hope I didn't cause
    you to have to delay shooting the clear.
    
    I couldn't say exactly what ratio I thin the K&B clear to; I just
    add thinner 'til the mixture drips freely from a stir stick (popcicle
    sticks are great for mixing purposes).  I'm sure, however, that
    40% is right in the ballpark...the bottom line is how it sprays;
    if difficulty is encountered achieving a nice 'wet' coat, add thinner
    - if it sprays _too_ wet, add clear.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    
    Finished up the clear coat last night with epoxy clear, gloss finish,
    40% thinned.  Wow.  Even with the dust particles from spraying in 
    the garage and moving to the basement to dry, the touch-ups from
    sanding too much, the quick masking  and pin-striping job, I think
    it looks great, and I'm convinced this is a DURABLE finish.  Now
    if it doesn't weigh a ton I'm all set!  What a gloss you get with
    the epoxy clear.  As good as or better than polyurethane, and MUCH
    better than dope as it didn't attack the tape at all.
    
    Also tinted the canopy last night and glued it on with RC56 this
    morning.  Will charge the batteries tonight and hope for good
    weather tomorrow!
    
    Bill

    
    
    Success!  Put on the finishing touches last night;  pin-striped
    around the canopy, installed motor, fed receiver wire thru hole
    in turtle deck, etc, etc.  Finally I checked the CG location -
    a little less than 1/4 inch behind what the plan calls for
    (i.e. somewhat tail heavy).  I think that's very close to where
    the CG was before I started the repair/repaint operation.
    I was very happy with that result since in addition to repainting
    I had added threaded brass sleeves for the rear wing mounting screws.
    
    Took it out at lunchtime and had two great flights on it.  I think
    it flies better than ever!
    
    So, bottom line - I'm hooked on the famous Al Casey finishing
    method and can't wait to do the next one even better!  Painting
    is not so bad when you get good advice!
    
    Bill
    
    P.S. I FORGOT to bring a camera, but will take pictures for you
         tomorrow Al.  Thanks again -

     Need help with some airbrushing questions. What is single or dual
    action. Is internal or external mix better? I am thinging of using an
    airbrush to do trim work on monokote. I am told that if you sand the
    monokote lightly the spray will stick and is water and fuel proof.
    What types of paint can be used in an airbrush? My guess is something
    like a polyurathane paint might be too thick? Is there any vidio or
    book that explains airbrushing in particular for model airplanes,
    I am not interested in going into the t-shirt business.
    
    Regards,
    Bob G.
    

    This is discussed a lot in another conference, DNEAST::MODEL_RAILROADS
    KP7, etc.   See notes 13.0 with its 81 replies!  Also 17.*.  There is,
    in some other conference (that I didn't include with my documentation),
    a note 422.* with more information.  And there may be some more
    material in tools_and_woodworking. 

    Books for the plastic scale hobby devote sections to airbrushing.

>>    book that explains airbrushing in particular for model airplanes,

    See the Harry Higley book, "There Are No Secrets".  About 30 pages
    on painting, including spraying.    I cannot help you with your 
    question about painting over MonoKote.  Did you look at note 288.*,
    the "let us spray" topic in this conference?
    
p.s.  This question should have been entered there.

    OK, earlier in this discussion we talked about using contact paper to
    mask insignias...
    
    With my WWI birds, I need to make roundels...  Each roundel has 4
    bands of color (white - blue - red - white), and there are 6 of them
    on the plane, so I need to cut a lot of circles of contact paper.
    
    I once heard of the trick of taking a standard compass and taping an
    xacto knife to it.  
    
    Well, I gave that a try..  But I found it to work only marginally well.
    I found that to put enough pressure on the blade to cut the paper
    (brand new blad) risked bending the blade which causes inconsistent
    circles.  Also, if the blade isn't exactly in the right position, it
    will not track correctly around the circle.
    
    Can anyone tell me what I am doing wrong??  Or can anyone give me an
    alternative??  (I don't believe that cutting by hand will be any better
    and it is likely to be much worse...)
    
    Thanks!
    jeff
    

    Jeff,

    Exacto makes a circle cutter.  It works quite well.  It looks like this:

                             Adjustable slide/nut
                           to change circle diameter
                                      |
                                      V
    
                 _____________________[]____________
                 |                                 ||
                 |                                 ||
                 v                                 |/

                 ^                                 ^
                 |                                 |
            Sharp little                         Blade
            pointy thing
            that locates
          center of circle

    Any decent art supply store will have one.  They're quite cheap.  They
    hold the blade at the proper tangent to the circle.  You get nice, neat,
    clean cuts every time!

    If you can't find one. Lemme know, I can lend you mine, somehow.


    Randy

    
    I've been meaning to ask this for a while...  the only complaint I
    have about finishing with glass cloth (I've been using Parson's
    .6-oz cloth) is that if you go around a tight curve it tends to lift
    away from the surface before it hardens.  How do you guys handle this?
    Lately I've been using thin CA to tack it down and Envirotex epoxy over
    it.  But polyester doesn't cure over CA, does it?  What do you use in
    that case?  Pins?
    
    Bill

>    I've been meaning to ask this for a while...  the only complaint I
>    have about finishing with glass cloth (I've been using Parson's
>    .6-oz cloth) is that if you go around a tight curve it tends to lift
>    away from the surface before it hardens.  How do you guys handle this?
>    Lately I've been using thin CA to tack it down and Envirotex epoxy over
>    it.  But polyester doesn't cure over CA, does it?  What do you use in
>    that case?  Pins?
    
Bill - Polyester (or Epoxy) resin will have no problem curing over CA - 
I've done it lots of times.

Problem I have is when I resort to CA I still can't keep the cloth down
and ZAP it and not have a wrinkle.  I try to keep pushing it again
as it sets up and if your timing is good you will push it down when the
stuff starts to kick and it will stay put.  But I usually fail.  So
after it is hard I sand thru the bubbles and re-fiberglass little patches
in the holes and sand again.  Messy at best so I also would like to hear
others tell us what they do to keep the glass cloth down.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

I was shown a way of doing roundels by one of Oz's scale builders. It's 
similar to the Exacto process of - a few, it works like this.


Take a piece of 1/16" ply about 3/8" wide and as long as the radius of the
largest circle. Put a thumb tac in one end. Mark off the radius of the
different circles along and penetrate the points with a pointed Exacto blade. 

Take some contact paper; the type you put on shelves; and place on a board. 
Push in the thumbtack, starting from the outside mark begin cutting circles. 
This gives you the mask for the roundels.

Now position the mask on the model starting from the center spraying the colors 
and remasking as required. Terps is used to ease off the contact so it does not 
lift the paint.


            Thumb Tack                                         Exacto Blade
         _____                                                |
           |                                                  |
       ----+------------------------------------------------------- 1/16" Ply
           |                                                  | 

John

    A very   l i g h t  coat of 3M 77 spray adhesive before the cloth does
    wonderful things for keeping the cloth in place
    
    
    
    							Dave
     

I have decided to spray my next model (average .40/45 sized plane) and was
wondering about the quantities of the K&B paint, primer, polyester resin etc
that one needs to purchase in order to cover the model (I have opted for the
K&B product range). 

SOoooo to make thinks simple - lets say the model was to be painted with a
single color. How much  paint/catalyst (@ 4oz units) would I need, along with
an idea of the amount of thinners needed ? 

The paint scheme I have in mind is not a 'boring' single color but based on
the single color I can get an idea of how much of the other colors I need.


Regards,

Eric(); 

ps: I wouldn't need to know this info if I could get the paint in Ireland (if I
ran out of something it would be easy to get more) but alas I can't !

    I recently had a terrible experience using Black Baron White
    spray epoxy paint.  I was applying the second coat of the 
    stuff sprayed directly from the aerosol can onto wings sheeted
    with plywood and covered with light fiberglass and Loctite
    Epoxy applied using the Dan Parsons' method.  The first coat 
    went on without incident and I had already painted the under-
    side of the wings using two light coats of Black Baron Black
    spray epoxy without any problems.  To my horror as I was spraying
    the second coat, I noticed that the paint was causing the finish
    on the wing to bubble up as if I had poured a solvent on the wing!
    The second coat had eaten its way through the first coat of paint
    as well as the primer.  Fortunately it did not appear to have attacked
    the epoxy wing coating.  Needless to say the wing is a sticky mess,
    eclipsing many hours of careful surface preparation.  Does anyone
    have any idea what went wrong?(Yes, the paint was well shaken
    and at room temperature before I used it).
    
    Regards,
    
    Jim

>    with plywood and covered with light fiberglass and Loctite
>    Epoxy applied using the Dan Parsons' method.  The first coat 

I don't know what the problem was but thanks for reminding me to throw
away two nearly full bottles of Loctite Epoxy.  I used this to cover
the surface of my Hobie Hawk after I added some carbon fiber to the
tail.  Days later it was still wet.  So I put it in the Solar Room
where it was 90-100 degrees for a week or two.  Then I put it in the
air conditioned work shop for a couple weeks.  Then I tried alcohol
and elbow grease.  Then I ignored it for another month.  Finally
after some sanding and more alcohol and elbow grease I dared put paint
on top of the mess.

I will only use Loctite on screws.  They can keep their epoxy.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

  **  Mr. Moderator, please move this discussion to the "Let Us Spray" topic. 
  **  Thanx! 
    
    Jim,
    
    Like Kay, I don't know that I can give you a specific answer as to what
    happened.  What I _will_ volunteer is that Black Baron [so called]
    epoxy paints _might_ be suitable to repaint lawn furniture but I'd
    advise against using it for much of anything else, particularly on a
    model with hours of elbow-grease and preparation time invested.
    
    My experience/observations of the stuff is that it's a poor finishing
    material at best.  I don't know about other colors but their silver
    ABSOLUTELY IS *NOT* fuel-proof!!  Another point is that there's no such
    thing as a pre-mixed or one-part epoxy...I don't know what they're
    selling but I guarantee you it's NOT epoxy.  There's only one way to
    get a hard, resilient epoxy finish and that's to use K&B or Hobby-Poxy
    2-part epoxy paints...it just flat can't be had using an aerosol can.
    
    You've obviously encountered some sort of incompatibility problem but
    it's impossible to guess just what it might be.  Personally, I hesitate
    to mix product types any more than absolutely necessary, i.e. I try to
    use the same maker's products from start to finish, the only exception
    lately being our use of Ditzler acrylic lacquers over K&B primer (which
    has proven 100% acceptable) then overcoating the whole thing with a
    binder-coat of K&B clear epoxy.  BTW, I spray or air-brush everything
    myself as the propellants in an aerosol can can cause compatibility
    problems sometimes.   

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    
    I don't know what happened but if you don't mind I'd like to move this
    note to the "LET US SPRAY" topic, which is all about spray painting
    and your experience would be valuable to that note.  Let me know if
    you don't mind and I'll take care of it.
    
    By the way, I'm amazed that the _first_ coat went on OK and it was the
    second coat that gave you trouble.  If the first coat is given enough
    time to fully cure, the second coat shouldn't dissolve it completely.
    My guess is that the first coat didn't really go on as well as you
    think.  It may not have "stuck" well at all, and when the second coat
    started putting some stresses on it it started lifting.  If you have
    any areas that do not have the second coat yet, how about trying a
    test with some tape to see if the first coat is really stuck down well.
    
    Bill

    
    Al,
    
    I've been following the progress of your Mig repairs in RAMBLINGS.
    The same question keeps coming to mind - how are you going to match
    new paint to older paint that is slightly weathered, etc..  I always
    dread this part of a repair.  Got any secrets you can share?  Will
    you spray or brush, freehand or mask, etc etc?
    
    Bill

    Bill,
    
    No secrets, here.  I still have paint left from the original spraying
    of the MiG.  The only problem stems from the yellowing of the K&B flat
    clear overcoat and, even this doesn' affect the upper (brown/green)
    surfaces to any extent.
    
    On the bottom however, the pale blue became more a light gray within a
    few months and the difference in color is obvious.  However, you dare
    not try to mix the color to match as, after the fresh clear coat ages a
    bit, you'd _really_ have a mismatch.  Therefore, I'll simply airbrush
    the touching up, feathering into surrounding areas as necessary, then
    apply the fresh clear overcoat.  The brown/green areas will blend righ
    in immediately and, in a little while, the pale blue will too.
    
        

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    Re: .-1, Eric,
    
    Yer' oh so correct!  Flat/matte colors are a snap as they tend to blend
    together almost automatically (one of the reasons I highly prefer the
    flat military finishes to anything else).
    
    I really don't have any pearls; I'm as much a victim as anyone else
    when it comes to gloss colors, if we're talking about color-match.
    Otherwise the technique is similar in that I simply do the touch-up
    with an airbrush, carefully feathering into the adjacent area(s).
    Very careful feather-sanding with wet-or-dry (wet) and some rubbing
    compound gets it as good as it's gonna' get.  If you used a final clear
    coat (I always do), it's a little easier cause all the wet-sanding,
    hand rubbing, etc. is done _after_ applying the touch-up color(s) which
    don't have to be messed with, in this instance.  Just spray on the
    clear and feather _it_ into the surrounding areas.   

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

After a great deal of deliberation, I converted to Hobbypoxy
paint this last summer -- so far the experience has been
favorable, if not messy.  But I wanted to mix up various colors,
and I've heard that Hobbypoxy has a folder of color combinations.
So, being impatient, I called Hobbypoxy and asked for the folder.

In case this hasn't been posted here, their address is:

Petit Paint Co., Hobbypoxy Division
36 Pine Street
Rockaway N.J. 07866

Their customer service phone is (201)625-3100; they are very
helpful.  The fellow told me that they are coming out soon with
1-part paints in a spray can like the Black Baron product.
This line will include such colors as olive drab.  Being a great
fan of O.D. (and Prairie Dogs), here is the official formula for
OD:

2 parts Dark Red
2 parts Black      !these two make the brown component
1 part  White
1 part  Cub Yellow  !adjust level for "greenness"

     Re: .326, Dan,
     
    Thanx fer' the pointer...I either missed this one or had forgotten
    about it.  So the Resin-Whacker does what, cuts some surface film of
    (??) so it can then be sanded without loading the sandpaper?  That's
    what I'm reading...am I interpreting correctly?? 

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    DAN,
    
    Hmmmmmm, in _that_ case the only advantage I can see is the lack of
    smell and the lack of problem(s) glassing over epoxy-based materials.
    But, you have an extra step to perform and a condition on the sanding
    ...maybe I'll just stick to polyester - I know how to avoid the
    coverage problems and the smell doesn't bother me all that much.  In
    fact, being a heavy smoker, the polyester smell tend to kill the smoke
    odor in the shop.  :B^)  Plus, I like the faster cure time a lot...it
    allows you to get a lot more accomplished.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    In addition to all that Dan Snow has said, Resin Wacker also is good
    for cleaning brushes, etc. and for any other general cleanup for any
    epoxy that has not yet hardened.

    Eric - is this correct?

                       _____
                      |     \
                      |      \                          Silent POWER!
      _        ___________    _________   |            Happy Landings!
     | \      |           |  |         |  |
     |--------|-  SANYO  + ]-|  ASTRO  |--|              - Dan Miner
     |_/      |___________|  |_________|  |
                      |       /           |     " The Earth needs more OZONE,
                      |      /                       not Caster Oil!! "    
                      |_____/

    I'd like to talk "BASE" materials.
    
    I'm presently building a Calypso pattern bird and will soon be gettig
    ready to finish this ship. I want to paint it but am streached between
    using paper and clear dope or fiberglas cloth as a base material.
    I would normally use the paper but I recently heard/seen where dope
    gets brittle. I'm wondering it this poses a long term issue under
    paint? 
    
    
    Tom

    I've read throught most of the replies in this note, and some of this
    stuff can be pretty confusing. But I have gone ahead and polyester
    rasin my Royal P-51D Jr. I must say that for my first time it came out
    pretty good. I've primed adn sanded most of it off. Now comes the next
    stage, adding color. And I must say that I'm a bit nerves. I don't have
    any spray painting equipment at all. I have looked into buy the Miller
    spray set that is advertized in Tower Hobbies, is this a good set? It's
    in the RCM mag, Tower Hobbies section for $79.00. This being my first
    time, maybe I shouldn't buy one til I try it and see if I like it.
    
    My next question is, should I put on a primer color first, then the
    base color, then the detailing, or should I go with just the base
    color then detailing?
    
    Norm
    

Norm, I have the Miller compressor, but not their air brush.  I
have a nearly identical Badger brush though.  The Miller
compressor is a fairly nice unit for casual (sport models)
applications, but may be strained with really serious and large
models.

I'm using a Pasche brush now, and it works beautifully with the
Miller and Hobbypoxy paints.  I'd suggest getting the Pasche
model H airbrush.  You'll also need a Heavy tip as the standard
brush comes with a Medium tip.

The Pasche comes in a starter kit with a couple of cans of air --
its a far better airbrush than the Badger and I think that with
limited budget its better to get a good quality airbrush than a
secondary airbrush and compressor. Unlike the Badger, the Pasche
seems to work well with the canned air.

I understand that the Badger compressor is a diaphragm type and
delivers a better flow of air at higher pressure than the Miller.
I'd hold out for something like that or one of the small
compressors from Sears.

For anything larger than a .40 size sport plane you'll want to
get an auto detailing gun, which needs a heftier unit than the
Miller.

    Norm,
    
    John has given you some pretty good stuff on basic airbrush setups.  I,
    too, prefer the Paasche airbrush though I'm sure others may work fine
    too.
    
    As to yer' question regarding base-coats, colors, etc., much depends
    upon the paint scheme you intend to use.  Never add primer as a base
    coat...it's **_HEAVY_**!!  Only enough primer to fill grain/cloth-weave/  
    small dents and imperfections should be left on the model for weight
    reasons.  Once this level of coverage has been achieved, additional
    primer coats serve no earthly purpose save for adding LOTS of weight.
    
    Assuming you have the correct coverage of primer, the next
    consideration concerns final color: if you plan on an natural aluminum 
    scheme, start right out blowing silver, then detail and apply final
    color coat; if yer' doing an Olive Drab or other colored finish, STILL
    start by applying a silver undercoat.  The silver covers _extremely_
    well at little weight gain and serves a number of purposes:
    
    1. It works well as a final primer in that it shows every flaw, down to
    the most minute ding, which can be attended to with a dab of
    spot/glazing putty (available in tubes from any auto paint store). 
    Touch up repair areas with silver when complete.
    
    2. It provides a uniformly colored base over which to apply color which
    makes coverage more consistent and final results can be achieved in
    fewer coats of color.
    
    3. It provides a weathering base, i.e. you can burnish through final
    color in desired places to expose the silver undercoat, simulating
    places where paint has been worn/chipped off.
    
    4. It provides a natural barrier to the UV-light which can rot or
    deteriorate fabric and/or other materials right through the color
    coats.  BTW, This is standard practice on full-scale aircraft to extend
    fabric life and UV deterioration of metal and other materials.
    
    So, the answer is, regardless of the final color desired, apply a
    silver undercoat first (for all the reasons above), then detail and
    apply final color(s).  I learned this from scale and now do it as a
    matter of course on any airplane I build, scale or not.
      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    John,Al
    
    	Thanks for the knowledge. That silver base-coat sounds like a great
    idea.
    
    	Now, as for the airbrush, I was looking through my Tower Hobbies
    and the way things are listed can get you really confused. So, I have
    an old edition of Radio Control Buyers Guide 1987/88, that I looked
    through to try and get more info. John,Al I guess what I'm confused about
    is that what you are saying it that you use the canned propellent as
    opposed to a compressor setup?
    
    	Also, I don't know if it's just because it's Tower but they don't
    list any Paasche accs. such as a large tip. Did you get the larger tip
    from Paasche dirctly?
    
    	I've got many picture of the P-51D that I'm going to make my chose
    of color schems.
    
    
    Norm 

    Norm,
    
    Most airbrushes come with (or have available as accessories) fittings
    to enable powering the brush with canned propellant (freon).  I
    haven't tried this enough to be an authority on it but, the one time I
    tried freon, I had much clogging as a result, I think, of the very cold
    air temperature past the tip.  I know it's done fairly commonly so
    there are likely tips/techniques/tricks to overcome this problem...I
    simply said "to H*ll with it" and went to my compressor which has
    always worked wonderfully with the Paasche airbrush.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

I based the recommendation on the bottled propellant on my usage
of it with the Hobbypoxy for touch-up.  It seems to work very
well for the job, though the compressor is the very best.

The Paasche airbrush I use is in the Tower catalog as PAAR2010,
2P-H3 AIRBRUSH SPR TRAVELKIT...REG $52.00/TOWER $39.95 -- an
absolute bargain that comes with the following:

H#3 airbrush
Bottle assembly and color cup
1/8" x 4' air hose (needs adapter to bolt up to Miller)
3B tank valve
2 #2 pressure cans
Wrenches, instruction booklet, and parts sheet

I purchased the heavy flow tip from a local hobby shop that
patronizes the plastic model bunch.  Tower doesn't
seem to stock this item.

    The May 1990 issue of MA, the current issue, has two articles on
    finishing that echo, each in parts, Al Casey's techniques.  Even
    the roll of toilet paper is mentioned in one.  
    
    On page 46 and 47 Jeff Foley's Scale column discusses the use of
    glass, K&B clear, Feather Fill, automotive primer, acrylic putty
    and lots of sanding in preparation for painting.  Jeff describes
    the toilet paper technique in almost the same words as Al.
    
    On page 49 and 170 Bill Hager's Pylon column has a condensation
    of an article in the NEPRO newsletter by a Bruce Richmond.
    Richmond uses glass, spackle, K&B epoxy paint with microballoons,
    K&B primer, and lots of sanding.
    
    Both use the satin catalyst with the K&B.

        I received a very old (pre WWII) Pasche airbrush as a gift many
        years back. A few years ago it started having problems, and I
        decided it was time to get a new one. I ordered a VL#3 from tower
        on sale for $39.95. While waiting for its arrival, I called
        Pasche, just to see if they could do anything with my old unit. It
        turns out that they are located in a Chicago suburb just on the
        other side of O'Hare from ACI where I work. They fixed my problem,
        performed 2 upgrades on the airbrush, and sold me a couple
        accessories, all for under $20, while I waited. When I asked, the
        told me they frequently see their old equipment, even older than
        mine, for service. I wouldn't have anything else!
        
        Dremel used to have service like that, till Emerson bought them
        out.
        
        BTW, is there something special about Chicago? It seems that all
        airbrushes are made here (Badger, Pasche, Binks, Thayer&Chandler,
        and I think Miller as well).

I've decided to give envirotex epoxy a try but for the life of me I can't
seem to find anybody who carries pure isopropyl for thinning it down. Does
anybody known of a local source for this stuff (southern NH). On the other
hand how about using K&B epoxy paint thinner? Comments?

Thanks,

G. Schrader

I went to my local hardware store and picked up denatured alcohol. This was 
listed as 191 proof. I successfully used it with HobbyPoxy II.

    Glenn,
    
    Try yer' local pharmacy.
						 __
				|      |        / |\	   	       
      	         \|/		|______|__(o/--/  | \	   	       
      | |        00	       <|  ~~~  ____ 04 ---- | --------------------
    |_|_|        (O>o		|\)____/___|\_____|_/	   Adios amigos, Al
      |     \__(O_\_	        |	  |___/	 o	   (The Desert Rat)

I've got some of the 91% pure stuff from the CVS down the road but a 
previous note mentioned something about "industrial grade" pure isopropyl so I
wasn't sure whether the "watered down" pharmacy flavor alcohol would work OK.
Anyway, it sounds like I wound up with the right stuff...

Thanks,

G. Schrader

    Glenn,
    
    Let me clarify; when I say try the pharmacy, I'm not suggesting you get
    the off-the-shelf, garden variety bathroon alcohol.  According to Dan
    Parsons, this _will_ work but the water content _can_ cause problems. 
    But, most pharmacies also carry medical grades of isopropyl that are
    acceptable for the application of thinning epoxy resins.  BTW, I think
    the 91% stuff you have will probably be fine.  I can't comment on using
    K&B thinner as I've never tried it or heard of it being tried; it might
    work but I couldn't say for sure.  Even if it _does_ work, in the
    quantities needed for use thinning resin, K&B could become an expensive 
    proposition in a hurry.  Better to use the the considerably less expensive 
    isopropyl, I'd think.
						 __
				|      |        / |\	   	       
      	         \|/		|______|__(o/--/  | \	   	       
      | |        00	       <|  ~~~  ____ 04 ---- | --------------------
    |_|_|        (O>o		|\)____/___|\_____|_/	   Adios amigos, Al
      |     \__(O_\_	        |	  |___/	 o	   (The Desert Rat)

OK Al, I see now. Actually, I asked the pharmacist if they had anything else
and he said that he didn't think that they made anything above 91%. I guess
that i'll have to ask at a real medical supply house but i'll try what I've
got on a test piece and see how it goes.

Thanks again,

G. Schrader

    I have used the 91% alcohol with Enviro-Tex, Loctite (now Pacer)
    Finishing resin, and regular epoxy with no problems at all.

    Maybe it has to do with the low humidity of Colo Spgs and similar
    places, but I was able to use plain ol' consumer grade rubbing alcohol
    50-50 mixed with 30-min expoy to fuel proof the interior of my PT40.
    It cured well, no bubbles, etc.  Or maybe I was just lucky.
    
    Chuck
    

    
    
               Glenn,
                     I don't know how much you need , But I 
            stock 99% isopropyl here in my NIO lab for use 
            in ionic contamination systems. I have at least
            a half gallon left. We use 9-10 gallons a year  
            of this stuff. I get it from Alpha Metals in
            S. carolina, So it is made by somebody.
    
      kevin P

RE: -.1

Gee, thanks! Over the weekend I tried my drugstore generic 91% stuff. It went
pretty well except that my basement is too cold and the epoxy took a while to
set up. I'd be interested in trying the real thing just to see how much
difference that last 9% of water makes. A few ounces would be PLENTY for. I'll
get in touch offline to pick up a sample.

About Envirotex, I'm hooked. This is the best stuff I've ever used. I still
like the instant gratification that you get putting the cloth on with CYA but
the surface that I'm getting with Envirotex is much better. I'm using about
one third or a little more alcohol to two thirds mixed Envirotex and just
dump it on and squeegee it around with a playing card (I always keep a
deck handy, they're great for this). Anyway, it works great!

G. Schrader

    
    I wouldn't be in a big hurry to blame the long cure time on
    temperature, though it is a factor. The only disadvantage I found when
    I used Enviro-tex is the fact that even when the air temp stays above
    60-65 degrees F, the darn stuff takes 18-24 hours to cure solid.

    60-65 degrees is still below the recommended temperature for epoxy.  It
    really should be 70 degrees to get the rated cure time.  I have used
    91% isopropal from CVS with no problems.  I have also used Acetone with
    no problems but I prefer working with the isopropal.  Acetone eats the
    plastic cups I use to mix and apply my epoxy.
    
    Charlie
    

    Be careful using acetone as a thinner for resins, either epoxy or
    polyester.  I once used acetone to thin some resin fo applying .6-oz
    glass closth to a fuselage and it, literally, took _months_ to finally
    cure.  I'd have to guess that isopropyl is the safer, not to mention
    the cheaper, way to go.  It should be mentioned also that thinned
    resins usually take longer to cure than a straight mix.  Resins in thin
    film always take longer to cure than the left over resin in the cup
    and, the thinner the mixture, the thinner the film.
						 __
				|      |        / |\	   	       
      	         \|/		|______|__(o/--/  | \	   	       
      | |        00	       <|  ~~~  ____ 04 ---- | --------------------
    |_|_|        (O>o		|\)____/___|\_____|_/	   Adios amigos, Al
      |     \__(O_\_	        |	  |___/	 o	   (The Desert Rat)

    I have only used Acetone with Epoxy, not Polyester.  I too prefer to
    use alcohol because it doesn't eat the plastic cups that I use to mix
    in.  I have experienced no curing problems with either alcohol or
    acetone.
    
    Charlie
    
    

    Well. I have a few questions regarding the final finish with K&B paints
    in particular. And one final cure for measuring...
    
    Firstly,
    
    	Lets say that I have applied the final coat of paint to part of the
    plane. After carefully rubbing it down with 1200 Wet & Dry to a nice
    silky finish (let me say here that I am using the spraying gloss
    catalyst). One may notice that on close inspection there can be some,
    what resemble, sort of watermarks. Further sanding can remove these -
    but lets say I leave these and apply a coat of clear - and then sand
    this to perfection with really worn 1200.
    
    Am I correct in saying that I can get that top class finish from
    sanding the clear rather than sanding the _THIN_ color coats ? Will
    blemishes show through ?
    
    I know that some sanding is required between coats and a final.
    
    And if so to what extent does the color coat have to be prepared if 
    so ? 
    
    Maybe some of you guys could detail final finishes a bit more ?
    
    
    
    Secondly,
    
    I have found that the thinners and to a lesser extent the catalyst
    like to attack the plastic srynges (spelling ?) so I have finally
    found a glass one that will last for ever.
    
    
    It can be amusing to come out of my hobby den with breathing mask on,
    those clear rubber gloves and the odd srynge in ones hand ! But all is
    needed as has been said here before.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Eric();
    

    RE: .383, Eric,
    
    >Am I correct in saying that I can get that top class finish from
    >sanding the clear rather than sanding the _THIN_ color coats ? Will
    >blemishes show through ?
    
    * Yes.  The clear coat(s) will cover a multitude of sins, sanding
    marks, _small_ dings/dents and _minor_ imperfections.  Blemishes such
    as these will disappear like magic but the operative words are
    "_small_" and "_minor_".  Having no pigment or other filler, clear is
    very thin and can't be depended upon to fill/level out more
    consequential goofs.
    
    >I know that some sanding is required between coats and a final.
    >And if so to what extent does the color coat have to be prepared if 
    >so ? 
    
    * A light wet-sanding with 400-600 wet-or-dry between coats, just to
    provide a little "tooth" for the subsequent coats to adhere to is
    sufficient.  Ideally, the last coat of clear should not be sanded as
    it's difficult to restore the high gloss using rubbing compounds.  It
    can be done but requires some elbow-grease.  A nice, wet final coat of
    clear is all that's required, no further sanding/rubbing...of course,
    if dust, lint, g-nats and/or other animal life alight and become stuck
    in it, wet-sanding and rubbing may be in order.
    
    Hopefully, "the other" Eric'll chime in here as he has more current
    experience with using epoxy colors than do I.  I generally use epoxies
    up through the primer stage, then abandon them for Acrylic-lacquers.
						 __
				|      |        / |\	   	       
      	         \|/		|______|__(o/--/  | \	   	       
      | |        00	       <|  ~~~  ____ 04 ---- | --------------------
    |_|_|        (O>o		|\)____/___|\_____|_/	   Adios amigos, Al
      |     \__(O_\_	        |	  |___/	 o	   (The Desert Rat)
    

    
    	I'm not sure but...   K&B the engine people are also the K&B
    paint people. Right?? If yes then maybe someone can help me...
    
    	I'm looking for a matrix for mixing K&B paints to match colors
    of Topflight monocote.  What I need to match is the monocote pink.
    Does anyone have such a matrix or the new number for K&B in Arizona?
    
    
    Tom

    Re: .-1, Tom,
    
    I wasn't aware K&B had made the move to Lake Havasu City as yet; they
    only broke ground for the new plant last November.  But, they throw 'em
    up in a hurry nowadays so I guess it's sure possible.  I'd suggest you
    call the old number as they'd surely supply the new information if the
    change has already taken place.
    
    BTW, yes, K&B epoxy paints are from the same manufacturer as K&B
    engines but I have no idea whether they're manufactured in the same
    facility or whether K&B might contract them out to a vendor.
    
    (Pink Monokote??????  You must be building something for yer'
     girlfriend, right.....??) 
						 __
				|      |        / |\	   	       
      	         \|/		|______|__(o/--/  | \	   	       
      | |        00	       <|  ~~~  ____ 04 ---- | --------------------
    |_|_|        (O>o		|\)____/___|\_____|_/	   Adios amigos, Al
      |     \__(O_\_	        |	  |___/	 o	   (The Desert Rat)

Tom, Hobbypoxy is pretty much the same stuff as K&B; only a
little thicker.  But they have a good customer service department
and know how to mix colors...I've called them about it myself.
Not the most ethical thing in the world, but at last resort you
could try them.

Why would anybody use K&B when Hobbypoxy is cheaper and has
better color?

Learned something last nite, after almost a year of knocking
my head against the wall...

Hobbypoxy sells two filler materials: Filler, and Stuff.  Last
year I was looking for a putty filler to take care of dents, etc
and I picked up both cans and read the directions.  Since they
read practically identical, and since the one that was labeled
Filler was more apropos sounding than the one labeled Stuff, I
bought the filler.  I also bought another product, their Grain
Filler, a white thick paint.

Now logic would dictate that one should seal the wood, fill dents
with Filler, and fill the grain with the Grain Filler.  This is
what I've done, with very mediocre results and much elbow grease.

Last nite I was sanding away at a fuse and kind of musing in my
mind about why nothing can fill balsa worth a hoot, when it
occurred to me that the can of Filler says nothing about its
usage for filling dents, while I've read in magazines that Stuff
is widely used for that purpose.

The Filler can says to dilude the material 50 or so percent with
thinner and apply with a brush to the wood.  That's when I had my
Great Illumination: the Filler is not for dents, its for filling
grain!  Funny, over the past year I've occasionally used it in
this way in small areas, but it never occurred to me that this
was indeed the primary reason for its existence.  The stuff
labelled Grain Filler doesn't work worth a damn for that, but its
an excellent primer coat to give the glass-like base for color.

Don't look to the Hobbypoxy literature, they don't even mention
Filler.

    I have read most of this file and can not find the answer to my
    question. I've used the Black Baron Epoxy spray bomb (can) and there
    are times when the paint dries or hardens and there are times when it
    stays sticky for a months time. What am I doing wrong??
    This is a great file or notes whatever I have learned a lot from it.
    Has anyone seen or used the new Colored Super Coverite? If so how does
    it work, as well as the none colored?  Thanks again 
    
    Bruce

    Black Baron --- both paint and the film --- seems to be something that
    people hate or love.  See notes 951.29 and 288.338

    Re: .389, Bruce,
    
    I didn't look but no doubt one or both of the notes Al Ryder referenced
    in .-1 contained comments by me regarding Black Baron [so-called] epoxy
    paints.  To re-hash slightly, lemme' say again that, in my opinion,
    calling the paint "epoxy" paint is tantamount to false advertising as
    you quite simply can't have a ONE-part epoxy!  Two parts are required
    to achieve the molecule polymerization that promotes curing and THAT'S
    what epoxies are all about.  K&B and Hobby-Poxy are the ONLY two epoxy
    paints currently available on the hobby market that ate TRULY epoxies.
    
    I have observed several fellow modelers try to use Black Baron and have
    drawn the personal conclusion that these paints are definitely NOT for
    me!  I've witnessed the exact same behavior you describe regarding
    drying/not drying and my personal feeling is that YOU are not doing
    anything wrong, rather it's an eccentricity, deficiency or flaw in the
    paint itself...a quality control problem, perhaps?  I honestly don't
    know.
    
    However, I _DO_ know that Black Baron seems terribly fickle as to
    whether or not it will cure/dry under a given set of circumstances and
    the silver/aluminum color, specifically, IS NOT FUELPROOF.  A close
    modeling buddy of mine, Chuck Collier, used B.B. Silver on a Duelist
    several years ago and it simply wiped off every time he cleaned it
    after a flying session.  Chuck got angry and contacted Coverite who
    told him they'd never heard of the problem before and sent him a new
    can of paint; Chuck refinished the plane with the [supposedly] good
    paint at no small expenditure of time and effort only to have it behave
    EXACTLY the same...again, it simply wiped off.  Coverite is offering a
    booklet on finishing tips using B.B paints and, if one is commited to
    trying them, I'd advise sending for this pamphlet to assure oneself
    that he was doing everything correctly.  For myself, I simply recommend
    that one avoids B.B. paints in favor of another brand which has no
    question marks on its reputation.
    
    Regarding "colored Coverite," this could mean two things: 1.) Super
    Coverite where the fabric itself is dyes one of (I think) 6 basic
    colors, or 2.) Permagloss Coverite which is Super Coverite which has
    been factory preprimed and prepainted.
    
    Colored Coverite applies with exactly the same ease as everyday Super
    Coverite but, unlike plastic films, should be clear coated for maximum
    dirt and fuel resistance.  This produces a sort'a trancluscent, semi-
    transparent finish where structure and wood grain are somewhat
    preceptible through the covering.  However, it's only slightly heavier
    than plastic films (when clear-coated), is somewhat easier to apply and 
    is ultimately stronger.  For a really nice finish, Super Coverite
    (normally white) requires priming and painting to really look nice.
    
    Prepainted Permagloss Coverite is less flexible and, thus, a bit
    fussier to apply but yields a ready fuelproof, painted finish.  Don't
    misunderstand; the resulting finish is NOT a super high gloss, looks-like- 
    20-coats-of-hand-rubbed-lacquer type finish - in fact the weave of the
    fabric is readily visible.  However, this fabric look is perfect for
    scale lightplane types, e.g. Cubs, Citabrias, etc. and even looks quite
    realistic on many sport models, especially bipes like the Aeromaster. 
    I, personally, feel it looks good on almost _any_ model but others
    prefer the exceptionally high gloss of the plastic films which _I_
    think lends a "toy-like" appearance to a model.  Just be aware of what
    the finish will (and won't) look like so you won't be disappointed.
    
    I've used and like all of Coverite's covering materials and recommend
    them without reservation.  However, my personal observation is that, at
    best, Black Baron paints are fickle and unpredictable to use and are
    not always fuelproof.  I choose to avoid them altogether and advise
    those who ask my opinion to do the same.
						 __
				|      |        / |\	   	       
      	         \|/		|______|__(o/--/  | \	   	       
      | |        00	       <|  ~~~  ____ 04 ---- | --------------------
    |_|_|        (O>o		|\)____/___|\_____|_/	   Adios amigos, Al
      |     \__(O_\_	        |	  |___/	 o	   (The Desert Rat)

    
    One of my on-going problems with my Nieuport-11 project has been
    determining what colors to use as there was really no documentation
    on what colors were used by the Italians in WWI.
    
    Well, the latest issue of Windsock (by Ray Rimmel, published in the UK)
    has an article devoted to the colors used by the Italians and even has
    2 color chips and a chart.  The chart lists the various types of red 
    and green used, and lists thier FS numbers!!  They also provide example
    aircraft, but they do not list the Nieuport (oh well)..
    
    So, I now have a documented definition of the FS numbers!  However,
    they list a number of reds and greens..  I certainly want to get one
    that most closely matches the color pictures that I have.  So, without
    having to get pints of all of these made up, where can I get color
    chips??
    
    (I know it is in this file someplace, but I have not been able to find
    it yet!!)
    
    thanks!
    jeff
    

    Re: .-1, Jeff,
    
    I think I put this in here somewhere before but it's easier to repeat
    it than to try to find it.  I've forgotten what the fee was but I think
    it was ~$6.00 for a great book of Federal Standard color chips.  You
    can also order larger individual chips (about 3x5") for about a buck
    each.  Call the GSA for clarification/confirmation of prices.  Be
    prepared to wait 6-to-8 weeks for delivery but it's worth the wait...
    this book is a MUST for any scale modeler!
    
	GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION,

	STANDARDS & SPECIFICATIONS SERVICE OF FEDERAL SUPPLY SERVICE,

	SPECIFICATIONS SECTION, ROOM 6654

	7TH & "D" STREET

	WASHINGTON, DC		20407
    
						 __
				|      |        / |\	   	       
      	         \|/		|______|__(o/--/  | \	   	       
      | |        00	       <|  ~~~  ____ 04 ---- | --------------------
    |_|_|        (O>o		|\)____/___|\_____|_/	   Adios amigos, Al
      |     \__(O_\_	        |	  |___/	 o	   (The Desert Rat)

...
    it was ~$6.00 for a great book of Federal Standard color chips.  You
...
>	GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION,
>	STANDARDS & SPECIFICATIONS SERVICE OF FEDERAL SUPPLY SERVICE,
>	SPECIFICATIONS SECTION, ROOM 6654
>	7TH & "D" STREET
>	WASHINGTON, DC		20407

Just got a new copy in the mail the other day.
Let me enhance the info Al just supplied - it probably doesn't
matter much but they have some additional doo dads added on to their
address.

I had sent them a check for $5.50 (last years price) and they
returned it with the above address and advised me that the price
is now $9.50

Their letter looks like this:

                 EFFECTIVE DATE DECEMBER 1989

595B Color Book
            (1/2" X 1")             586 Paint Chips            $ 9.50
Complete Sets
            (3" X 5")               586 Paint Chips            $80.00
Fan Deck
            (1/2" X 2")             586 Paint Chips            $ 7.50
Individual Paint Chips
            (3" X 5")                                          $  .40

        - The prices quoted were set by the paint and chemical 
          branch of GSA.

        - Foreign mail charges are 25% of the total cost for air mail.

        - Check should be made out to the General Services Administration
          in U.S. currency.

        - Please send cover letter of purchase order for our files
          with ship to address:  and a self addressed label.


               General Services Administration Rm. 6654
               Attn: Specifications Section (3FBP-W)
               7th & D Streets, SW
               Washington, DC 20407
               (202)708-9205/7140

Try the Testor's Model Masters paint rack at your local hobby
shop. 

    Well, I have looked through the last bunch of notes and couldn't find
    the answers, so...
    
    1 - Should (can?) the plasticizer be added to the clear coat of K&B??
    
    2 - How necessary is the primer coat on a sport ship covered with 
    Coverite??
    
    As noted elsewhere, I built the CG Cub this winter..  I then covered it 
    with yellow Super Coverite (not Permagloss Cub Yellow).  It turns out
    that the stuff is more transparent than I would like.  So, I was
    thinking I would hit it with a coat or two of darker yellow.  If I hit
    it with primer first, then I really need enough color to cover the
    primer, whereas if I just paint yellow  over yellow, I shouldn't need
    as much..
    
    I am also considering using K&B cub yellow rather than acrylic... 
    Would that make a difference?
    
    3 - If I use K&B yellow, should/can I add plasticizer?
    
    4 - If I use a K&B color coat, does it still need a clear coat??
    
    Thanks!
    jeff
    
    

    Re: .-1, Jeff,
    
    >1 - Should (can?) the plasticizer be added to the clear coat of K&B??
    
    * NO!  Plasticizer is used to make acrylic (and other) lacquers
    flexible as they tend to be brittle and will crack in time if not so
    treated.  K&B epoxies don't have this inherent problem and require no
    special treatment or additives.
    
    >2 - How necessary is the primer coat on a sport ship covered with 
    Coverite??
    
    * As in any application, the primer is necessary to provide some
    "tooth" for the color coat(s) to adhere to.  You _might_ get away with
    painting color directly over the bare fabric but my guess is that
    results would be unsatisfactory and the paint would likely flake/peel
    off intime.  Believe it or not, you'll require less paint spraying over
    the opaque primer base than over the semi-transparent covering...the
    opacity does the trick as it kills the transparency which allows light
    to shine through the color.  Many more coats would be required over
    bare fabric than over primer.
    
    >As noted elsewhere, I built the CG Cub this winter..  I then covered it 
    >with yellow Super Coverite (not Permagloss Cub Yellow).  It turns out
    >that the stuff is more transparent than I would like.  So, I was
    >thinking I would hit it with a coat or two of darker yellow.  If I hit
    >it with primer first, then I really need enough color to cover the
    >primer, whereas if I just paint yellow  over yellow, I shouldn't need
    >as much..
    
    * If it were my bird, I'd spray or airbrush at least one coat of K&B
    primer over all the Coverite.  Keep the coat light and even so minimal
    if any sanding is required.  Don't bruch the primer on as it will go on
    heavier and require more sanding which is difficult over open structure.
    Then, spray/airbrush with K&B epoxy (or plasticized automotive acrylic
    lacquer).  I think you'll find that it covers well and quickly over the
    white primer base.
    
    >I am also considering using K&B cub yellow rather than acrylic... 
    >Would that make a difference?
    
    * The difference is mainly in the amount of fuss required.  K&B, or
    course, requires mixing two parts and, perhaps, thinning prior to
    spraying.  Acrylic lacquer requires that a tablespoon of plasticizer be
    added to an unthinned quart of paint...from that point, you merely add
    thinner as required for spraying.  Weight wise, it should be nearly a
    draw but K&B tends to cover, perhaps, a bit quicker and thus _might_ be a
    bit lighter if applied sparingly.
    
    >3 - If I use K&B yellow, should/can I add plasticizer?
    
    * NO!  See above...like the clear, K&B paints need no plasticizing.
    
    >4 - If I use a K&B color coat, does it still need a clear coat??
    
    * No.  K&B epoxy is bullet proof to nearly anything and requires no
    sealing against raw or burned glo-fuel products where lacquer does. 
    The only reason to use clear over epoxy would be to seal any decals but
    this could be done selectively rather than coating the entire model.
    
    >Thanks!
    >jeff
    
    * Pornada, amigo,	Al
    
    

						 __
				|      |        / |\	   	       
      	         \|/		|______|__(o/--/  | \	   	       
      | |        00	       <|  ~~~  ____ 04 ---- | --------------------
    |_|_|        (O>o		|\)____/___|\_____|_/	   Adios amigos, Al
      |     \__(O_\_	        |	  |___/	 o	   (The Desert Rat)

    This topic's been around for quite a while. There's a lot of beginner
    history in those first hundred notes.
    
    I've been through here and through the related airbrush topics in
    model_railroad and I'm still confused as to what I really need to spray
    paint without a can of Propel. I've got an empty freon tank (50 pound)
    and a compressor. I can find fittings to hook them together and I can
    get a pressure valve. Do I need a regulator? Do I need a moisture trap?
    do I need a check valve? 
    
    I've got the standard Badger airbrush and I'd like to use it more often
    now that I have a pump and tank.
    

    Jim,
    	You should be able to make do with what you have if the humidity is
    low and your compressor doesn't spit oil.  I use a filter on my
    compressor that includes a water separator.  You could add that after
    your freon tank.  A big spray gun uses lots of air so you might need a
    "real" compressor if you want to do more than airbrushing.
    
    Charlie
    

    I stopped by two of the local hooby shops last weekend looking for K&B
    Thinner. Neither place had it so I asked the shop owner at the second
    place if he had a can sitting in the back. He said he didn't and asked
    if I knew that K&B was out of the paint and fuel business. He said
    they've been in a battle with the EPA and lost. Anybody else heard
    anything on this. If true I need to stock up while supplies last.

    I also have had problems finding their paint lately...  Tom @Tom's Hobby
    said that he has only been getting a very small percentage of his 
    K&B paint orders..
    
    At this point, he has a fair bit of Part A colors, but only a couple of
    cans of gloss hardner and 0 cans of satin hardner..
    
    He did not state that K&B was in or out of the business, just that it
    was hard to come by these days...
    
    ----
    
    So, what other paints, and primers are folks using??
    
    I saw a nice Citabria that was painted with Sig paint the other day...
    Raw fuel had spilled on it though and when they wiped up the fuel, the
    paint came along with it... :-(
    
    
    cheers,
    jeff

    I'd always used Hobbypoxy paints until recently. When I got back into
    it, K&B was the epoxy paint in the shops I frequent. Hopefully it'll be
    more available if this rumor is true.

Hobbypoxy and K&B paints are compatible, they both come from the
Petit factory.  The K&B paint is slightly thinner, editorial
remark deleted.

    Ummmm... so was it K&B or Petit that had the EPA hassles and gave up?

I dunno, since K&B repackages the stuff maybe its in their
operation.  I've heard nothing about Hobbypoxy, though out here
in this God-forsaken backwater country, it could take a while to
show up. Actually, the folks at Hobbypoxy are pretty nice and one
could easily call them and ask...

Phil once commented that nobody buys paint much, and its my
experience from how long the stuff sits on his shelves that he's
right.  The point being maybe us who paint our planes, as opposed
to covering them in plastic shrinkwrap with stick-on trim, maybe
we are becoming obsolete (translate: maybe its not worthwhile
making paint).

    My local hobby shop says they're having a hard time getting any
    K&B products. The EPA theory sounds plausible.
    HobbyPoxy products are readily available, as usual.
    
    Terry 

    The hobby paint market is probably rather limited and shrinking. The
    painters are finding alternatives from other industries that save them
    money. Far easier to go down to a local auto paint shop and have them
    custom blend a perfect match. Then all you need is a fuel proofer to
    spray over the entire finished product. I have lots of colors but I
    find that I don't use an entire can very often. Even basics like white
    and red tend to go a long way.

Let me ask what may seem a dumb question. Why use K&B or similar. 

It's very expensive, it is slow to dry and equally good finish can be  achieved
with Acrylic Lacquer if a 2 part gloss is applied on the top. I use straight
automotive lacquer and a "Non Yellowing" floor sealer with fuels up to 75%
Nitro. I can mask up the colour 20 mins after painting and it costs peanuts
compared to K&B. (We can pay $20 for the thinners alone in Oz.) 

John

    Well John, that's a good question. I'll see your question and raise you
    a couple more P^)
    
    What can be put over the automotive lacquer and/or the sealer at repair
    time (we all need to repair from time to time)? Do CAs stick? Epoxy? I
    have an auto paint shop within walking distance to my house and while
    I'm building my spray booth, these same questions are cropping up in my
    mind. In the past I've used HobbyPoxy and K&B due to ignorance and
    convinience. Knowing the problems with putting stuff over dope as it
    offgases the volitiles, I've always stuck with a single (read
    compatible) finishing system from start to finish. What does it (and
    the various thinners involved) to to foam should it seep in and find
    some in a servo cutout or pushrod exit?

Here in Oz we pay through the nose for K&B products. Our government puts a bit 
on as it enters the country, the importer puts his cut on the price, as does 
the distributor and the retailer, then the government has a bit more with sales 
tax just to ensure every thing is very expensive.

Our reluctance to use what you guys consider standard finishing techniques is 
price not that it looks better. 

To answer your questions Jim;

>    What can be put over the automotive lacquer and/or the sealer at repair
>    time (we all need to repair from time to time)? Do CAs stick? Epoxy? 

You will find automotive lacquer much easier to rub back than K&B, one of the 
disadvantages is just about everything effects it in some way (eg: dope, CA, 
Nitro, Synthetic oils etc). That's the reason for using a clear over the top. 
For quick and dirty jobs I use "Ultra Clear" the normal clear used by the 
automotive repairs to blend in old paint work to the new. It looks OK but does 
not give the deep shine of the two pot clears.

Provided you use the primer, automotive lacquer will stick to just about any 
clean, oil free surface. As far as problems with the foam should it seep into 
the servo or pushrod cutouts; not really a problem as when you spray it, almost 
all the nasties as far as the foam is concerned have dissipated. The small 
amount of foam dissolved is nothing to worry about.

John

    Thanks John. I got my spray rig plumbing done on saturday and stopped
    down to the neighborhood auto paint shop. They mix paints until noon on
    saturdays and charge about $7-8 per pint. Now I just need something to
    paint! 
    
    Sunday was rainy and the family went to a cousin's house to visit (dad
    got off the hook) so I spent the entire day working on a glider I've
    been avoiding. Contest season here in the northeast is starting next
    month and this is just about my last chance to get it done and get some
    practice. I'll probably give the fuselage a coat of paint now that I've
    got the spray stuff working well.

    I've been asked off-line to put in my plumbing experience with the
    compressor I'm using.
    
    I went down to my local hardware store and got the fittings I needed.
    I'm using two tanks so I needed a couple of Ts and a couple of 1/4"
    flared nuts to hook to the tanks. I also picked up a needle valve and
    at the local hobby store I got an adaptor to fit between the 1/4" line
    and the airbrush (Badger). I found that there are two different 1/4"
    threads, pipe and compression. Take your pieces to the store and
    they'll probably humor you (I had a high school kid going through the
    fitting drawers with me for about half an hour. He seemed to want to
    avoid pushing his broom :^)
    
    Anyway, my initial set up is as follows:
    
    
    30 lb tank ==============+============= 50 lb tank
                             |
                             |        -+-
    compressor ==============+=========|============ air brush
                                   needle valve
    
    I have a 6' flexible tube (standard) from the connector to the air
    brush and find that it gives me reasonable mobility. I left the 1/4"
    tubing long after the needle valve and it's flexible enough that I can
    bend it up to near my work area and use the flexible tube to get around
    the thing to be painted. I found that I didn't need the regulator and I
    don't have a moisture trap but one can be added later quite easily. The
    pump is a piston model and once the tanks came up to pressure, I didn't
    notice any pulsing and I could hold the  air brush button down
    continuously without any pressure drop off. A pleasure to play with
    after soaking Propel cans in warm water to finish a paint job. Next the
    spray booth...

Allow me to say a word in defense of Hobbypoxy.  I really looked
at the alternatives before selecting it for the following
reasons:

Auto lacquer costs $7-$14 a *pint*, depending on the color.
Hobbypoxy costs about $5 a pint, and while you need both the
color and hardener at $5 each, you get a quart for your bucks.
BTW -- Hobbypoxy is cheaper than K&B.

Hobbypoxy is a complete system, designed from the ground up for
models.  I can buy all finishing products (and I do) from the
same manufacturer, and know that they will all work together.  I
am starting to supplement the Hobbypoxy with Testors Enamel and
Pactra Acrylic for brightwork (not in the nautical sense!), and
even this works when I hit it with a coat of clear.

Hobbypoxy is absolutely no sweat for flats, semigloss, etc. and
they have a gonzo color matching list for making all military
colors.

Hobbypoxy is at the end of my phone line, and they know about
model airplanes.

Well, that's enough for now.  I might also add that I do feel
intimidated trying to explain about model airplanes to guys named
Steve in the auto paint stores.  Also, out here in the
hinderlands, its more difficult to get the little surplus cans of
paint that I could once buy in the big city.  I mean the auto
paint that the stores sell that is excess from when they mix or
when they don't sell a larger order.  Out here its new, custom
mix, or nothing.

Against Hobbypoxy?  Well the damned stuff is messy.  I use some
of that liquid glove stuff from Napa Auto Stores and that helps,
but I can guarantee you, if you touch a can of Hobbypoxy, you're
going to get it on you.  And it multiplies.  I've learned to be
wary of this and can keep mostly clean now.  Along that line,
mixing colors with it is a bit of a mess too, I find its easier
to thin the stuff slightly before mixing.

Chew on that for a while!

    Well, I took the auto lacquer plunge this weekend and I'M IMPRESSED!
    
    I started by reading every note in this topic (It's a shame there are
    sporatic holes. The following replies indicate that there might have
    been useful info in those). Having done that and cobbled together a
    spray reservoir from a couple of freon tanks and using one of Dan
    Miner's surplus pumps, I forged ahead. I combined several methods in
    this topic into a unique and workable method that fit the materials I
    had. The object to be painted is/was a standard class glider fuselage.
    Weight is important. I wanted to do something that would be different
    than a similar monocoat job so I decided on a color blend from one
    color to the next.
    
    After building and sanding the fuselage to shape, I spot glued the
    canopy and access hatch into place with some RTV. I decided to use full
    strength K&B clear to glue down the .6 oz glass cloth. I did both sides
    friday night. Early saturday morning I did the top and bottom the same
    way. After lunch I lightly sanded the seams and started filling the
    grain. (I really should have used another coat of clear but I wanted to
    apply color on sunday). I used Hobbypoxy grain filler to fill the weave
    of the cloth. This product is one part and dries in about an hour.
    Everything to this point has been brushed. I applies two coats with
    some 100 grit sanding. I put on one final coat and let it dry
    overnight. Sunday was the Ware field cleanup but I got up early and
    spent about an hour wet sanding the entire fuselage with 220 grit. I
    now know what Al referred to as sanding it all off. All that was left
    was a translucent sheen with the pores all filled in white (it's a
    white filler). I cut off the canopy (I glassed and sanded it as a solid
    piece) and access hatch and then reapplied the access hatch with some
    new RTV. My arms ached from all the sanding. I got back from the field
    clean up at 4:30pm and started getting set up in the garage. I used
    latex gloves to keep the paint off my hands and sprayed the entire
    fuselage yellow. It dried REAL fast and I recoated it about 15 minutes
    later. I started mixing red into the yellow and started my color fade
    towards the tail. This was the most time consuming part and I used an
    eye dropper to add the red. About 8pm I put the final coat of red onto
    the tail and painted the canopy (red) and hung everything to finish
    drying. I cleaned everything up and was back in the house (holding the
    plane which had dried that quickly) by 9pm. Tonight I put a couple of
    coats of K&B clear over everything and I'm done!
    
    Problems I had:
    
    I put the red on the canopy too thick and it ran. I wiped it all off
    with paper towels and repainted it. 
    
    I tried to wet sand (with 600 grit) the tail where I had a slight run 
    and went through the red very quickly. I repainted this when I redid
    the canopy.
    
    Other observations:
    
    Auto lacquer thinner is VERY nasty stuff. It is toluene, acetone and
    alcohol all mixed together (and probably other nasties too). When I
    cleaned up my little Badger airbrush (that I resurrected after 10 years
    of Propel cans avoidance), I noticed that the 10 year old epoxy paint 
    was coming off onto the Q-tip I was using. Don't spill this on anything
    you want to stay painted!
    
    I'm amazed at how little weight this method added to the fuselage. I
    must say that using the clear epoxy works great as long as you're
    careful not to get bubbles. You can't go back like silk and dope and
    add a little thinner to make it adhere. You've got to do it right.
    Worked out similar to the CA method without the rush and expense.

    Jim,
    
    If I understand correctly, you used 3 coats of Hobbypoxy white filler,
    sanded between each coat, to fill the weave on .6 oz. cloth. Did
    it really take this much to get a smooth surface ? 
    
    I'm looking for a filler to brush on obechi, so I can paint right
    over it and eliminate any kind of iron-on covering. If it took
    3 coats on cloth, it would probably take 5-6 on obechi.
    
    Terry

    The grain filler is more like thinned "Stuff" except it's white rather
    than beige. I filled the weave in each coat since the clear didn't
    allow it to soak into the plane. I sanded with 80, then 100 dry and the
    final was all taken off with 220 wet. Before I sanded the h*ll out of
    it on sunday morning, I had an acceptable "all white" finish. Looked
    like I had primed it white. This is a competition plane so I wanted it
    to be as light as possible so I set to work sanding the tail to lighten
    it. I got through the filler and liked the translucent finish so I kept
    going and sanded it all. I could have done the same thing after the
    second coat if I had started out trying for it. The best finish would
    have been to apply the cloth with an unthinned coat of clear, sand the
    seams and even everything out, spray a second coat of clear to nail
    down the "fuzz" from the edges, and finally brush on a full strength
    coat of filler. This would have sanded down to what I ended up with but
    I didn't want to "wait" for the second clear coat.
    
    I tried the TP route with glass resin on a previous fuselage. I never
    sanded enough of it back off. The full strength clear seems to soak
    into the wood providing a good bond and it just doesn't build up thick.
    I'm much happier with these results and it really came out super.

Its been my experience that the Hobbypoxy filler does a pretty
poor job of filling balsa grain.  It should do worse on obechi.
My current solution is to give the wood 2 coats of Flecto
Varathane varnish, sanding between coats.  That does a pretty
good job of sealing the wood, and the filler can then come in
over it ok.

My next model I'll be doing something different; going back to
the old days...I'll put on a coat of nitrate and silkspan, then
do the varnish/filler thing.  I did this on the Robin's rudder as
a sample and it worked pretty well.

In the end though, there's no substitute for swingin' the ol
sandpaper, alas and alack.

    That's why I suggested a base coat of clear. It would seal the grain so
    the filler wouldn't keep sinking in. The problem with these one part
    paints is that the next coat softens the lower coats and will continue
    to soak into the wood if there isn't some barrier (the 2 part epoxy
    clear won't soften). I went back and did a dope and silkspan job last
    summer. Used colored dope too. Never really gets opaque.

    Let's see if I've got this straight:
    
    The Hobbypoxy filler is a true 2-part epoxy paint ? I can see where
    this would be a good sealer.
    
    Is the Varathane a polyurethane based paint ?
    I've used Min-Wax and Red Devil polyurethanes on obechi. It took
    2 coats to give a semi-smooth finish. I didn't use any color coats
    on top. It would have looked bad without further filling, but was
    acceptable in clear as a quick sealing method.
    
    I may have to break down and get a spray rig. 1000+  sq. in. wings
    get to be a hassle when brushing anything on.
    
    Terry

Flecto Varathane is a "liquid plastic" varnish, the one in the
white can with the gal on roller skates -- the slogan being
"tough enough to skate on!" or something like that.  It comes in
gloss or satin, I use the latter.  Though the gloss would be nice
to show up low spots when sanding.

I usually brush on the Varathane, but it can be sprayed.  It
works even better if the first coat is cut 50% and the second
applied full strength.

Hobbypoxy filler is a white one-part substance.  It handles very
nicely and only has the one fault of not working worth beans at
filling grain.  It does put down a nice base coat and wet sands
very well, which is why I use it.

I should've added that I use all Hobbypoxy products, including
the color coats.  I've commented earlier on this.

    Re: Note 288.420 by ELMAGO::TTOMBAUGH "A Earful of Epoxy"
    
    no, no, no, no, no... The epoxy clear under everything is 2 part. This
    keeps the one part filler from soaking further into the wood. The
    filler is different than the old "stuff" and "filler". It's a third
    product called "Fast grain Filler". They've changed labels since the
    last time I bought the Stuff and Filler but they were both beige back
    then. This stuff is white and you can build up quite a thickness with a
    brush and it sands like butter. I bought an 8oz can and I've done 3
    planes with only about 2-3ozs. This product really fills quickly.

    The saga continues:
    
    I didn't clear coat yesterday due to the rain (and I had several other
    things to do) but today is nice enough that I will tonight. I DID
    notice that what I have is K&B brushing hardener. I tried to get some
    spray hardener this morning but the one place I tried didn't have it
    (and Tom's didn't open until noon). Can I just head home and thin down
    the stuff mixed properly for brushing and spray it or is there some
    real magic to the spray hardener? HobbyPoxy used to just be gloss and
    flat/satin and you added thinner to spray...

The brushing hardener works ok with the spray rig.  You may have
to thin it slightly more than you would with the spray hardener.
I have no preference for either actually, the spray hardener is
advertised to quickly set, but as far as I'm concerned its no
better than the regular stuff.  It has a slightly less gloss, but
does seem to go through the airbrush nicer.

BTW -- the brushing hardener is what really separates K&B from
Hobbypoxy.  It is great for small jobs and touchups, and if you
use a soft brush, it is nearly invisible over spray.  The brush
should be a write-off, unfortunately, since its nearly impossible
to get all the paint out of it and it will be stiff about 1/2 to
3/4 of the way up next time you use it.

I should also add that I don't use Hobbypoxy for small jobs
anymore, since I find Testor's plastic enamel or Pactra acrylic
paint to be easier to use and with a coat of Hobbypoxy clear,
just as durable.

If you plan to do scale work, the flat hardener has similar
characteristics to the brushing hardener, so its a good idea to
get experience with both. 

    Thanks for the good info. I went home and sprayed a coat on and this
    morning it looked nice. I'm real happy with the auto lacquer method
    since the spraying goes so fast. If I wasn't concerned about repairs
    I'd probably go with a urathane top coat but the epoxy seems to be
    friendlier to patches and repairs (from what I've read)
    
    I've learned to love my airbrush again. I liked the results before but
    hated the Propel hassles so it got put away. I've considering using
    .6oz cloth and laquer for all my future solid structure finishing. I'll
    finish off my current epoxy colors but I'll slowly be building up my
    collection of laquer pints.
    
    I just want to restate that the clear epoxy paint method for putting on
    the glass cloth worked like a charm and was a LOT less sanding than my
    previous attempt at the fiberglass and resin method (even with the TP)
    I find the smell of the epoxy paint less objectionable in the basement
    than the polyester resin. The indoor spray booth is my next (non-plane)
    project. During the summer I'll continue to use the garage with the
    doors open.
    
    I've got one more question. I'd like to put a coat of wax over the
    epoxy clearcoat. How soon can I? It's cured to the touch now and I
    assume that the reaction happens within a day and I'm pretty sure it
    doesn't offgas like laquer/dope. Is it safe to give it a coat of a hard
    wax this week?

Y'know, I'll have to go back and look at your notes on epoxy
paint and glass...one reason I've rejected the glass method is
that I don't like fooling with the fiberglass resin and TP.
Thanks for reminding me.  How about a pointer to the relevant
notes for us lazy types?

On the curing time, I think its on the order of several weeks for
a full cure.  But one property of resin is that is does not need
air to cure, since it cures by a reaction of internal heat from
the catalyst.  Finishing resin in fact contains wax because it
will not cure in air.  

    I read 400+ replies to this topic over several days, so should you 8^)
    
    Actually, the instructions are in some of the missing replies in this
    topic. The replies after the holes ask about parts of the process which
    tipped me off to the process. Tom T and Charlie Watt answered some of
    my questions/concerns offline. Several of the replies were from Al
    saying that it sounded like a viable method but you could do the same
    thing with his TP method. I'll outline what I did and the problems I
    thought of here as a brief review.
    
    Like Al has preached, the better the initial model surface, the better
    the outcome. Even more importantly in the epoxy paint case since there
    is little thickness to the "glue" layer. I decided to do my fuselage as
    a four sided box and do opposite sides and then let it dry. Once dry I
    feathered the edges and put on the other 2 sides. Once this was dry, I
    feathered those edges and then SHOULD have given it another coat of
    clear to seal the "fuzz". I just went ahead with the "filler" and it
    all came out fine. I used the clear epoxy straight (unthinned) and
    brushed it on pretty thick. I ironed my glass cloth flat after cutting
    it to size so I wouldn't have trouble at the folds (from being in the
    package) with a cool iron (I used my monocoat iron). The paint will
    sink into the wood and bond the glass to the top layer. I don't think
    you want to seal the wood first because then the paint wouldn't have
    anywhere to go and you'd be "floating" the glass on the surface. My
    feeling is that you'd be more likely to create bubbles this way. You
    don't want to brush over the areas you've already done because the
    tacky paint can cause you to pull the cloth up in a bubble. I worked
    frow the middle outward and used a clothspin and rubber band to hold
    down the loose ends (removed as I got out to the ends with the paint).
    The technique is very similar to dope and silk or silkspan EXCEPT the
    second coat WON'T resoften the underlying layers to reseal them to the
    structure. You need to get it bubble free the first coat. I like the
    lack of polyester resin smell and the slowness and lack of fumes
    compared to doing it with CA. You need to consider what you're going to
    do with it as it dries (I used the wing rod holes with dowels in my
    vice to hold it while I did the opposite side). The epoxy doesn't
    "kick" as quickly as the polyester so you need to do two sides at night
    and the other two the next day/morning. Doing the overlapping joints
    with adjoining sides wet/uncured causes you to brush the bottom layer
    inward as the top layer gets brushed outward and vice versa which is
    why I chose to do opposite sides and let it dry. It also allowed me to
    feather the bottom layer seams before putting on the overlapping layer
    which prevented any roughness due to the "frayed" edges that always
    seem to appear on cut glass cloth. Minimal sanding to get back to the
    "cloth" thickness and you just fill it normally and away you go.
    
    This is the best method I've used so far and the smell is minimal
    enough (since you're brushing full strength, there sin't a lot of
    thinner in the air) that I've feel comfortable doing it in my shop in
    the wintertime. I can't say that about the polyester resin fumes.

Must be smokin' my socks again...what didn't sink in is that
you're using Hobbypoxy clear *paint*, not Hobbypoxy epoxy glue.
Absolutely brilliant, and I thank you for trying it out and
letting us know about it.

Only one comment: maybe putting the second coat on a little thick
and combing it into the weave with a playing card would minimize
filling later.  Experience has taught me two things about this:
(1) do your filling as early in the process as possible, each
step you bypass makes for more work later, and (2) as nice as
that Hobbypoxy fast grain filler is, the less you fool with it
the better; it requires a lot of work to get right if it has to
do any honest-to-gosh filling.

Did you use the SIG cloth, or did you get it from somewhere else,
like Dan Parsons?

Finally, I've experimented with putting a layer of saran wrap
over the epoxy (glue) when I do something like a wing joiner.  It
sure makes the finished product smooth, even shiny.  I wonder if
it would work to do this when you do the second coat?  The only
hitch is that its a bear getting the wrinkles out of the saran
when you do a small surface, much less a whole fuse.

    When you're smoothing out an epoxy/polyester resin surface, try wax
    paper. This works pretty well and the wax doesn't bother the curing
    (but lightly sand it off before painting)
    
    I'd hesitate putting it on too thick since it will continue to move during
    the drying time and you could end up with runs. To be honest, I think
    two brushed coats would fill the weave pretty well without much filler.
    I was in a rush and figured that the evaporative one-part filler would
    be ready to sand sooner than a second 2 part paint coat. Next time I'll
    use two coats of clear since I feel the paint is sturdier (adds more
    strength) than the filler. Once wet sanded smooth and under the colored
    laquer, nobody can tell the difference anyway.
    
    The plane is done. The clear top coat of epoxy paint adds a nice shine.
    I finished the monocoat on the wings last night about midnight.
    Tonight, after a little league game, I install the radio and if the
    rain clears by tomorrow afternoon, it will fly tomorrow.

    Jim,
    	You will find that using two coats of the epoxy clear paint and
    then one coat of a heavy automotive primer is all that's required.  
    Once the primer coat dries sand 90+ percent of the primer off.  What
    your left with is the speckled condition you saw from your filler coat.
    I'm planning on doing the stab,elevator and rudder of my LA 1 this way.
    The entire tail of the LA1 will be Deep Purple with a yellow and purple
    striped rudder and a enlay of yellow on the stab.  Seeing as I have to
    paint the fuse I figure I'll paint the stab.  The wing will be
    monocoted.
    
    
    Tom

    For the finish on the bottom of my Ninja fuselage, I layed down
    a strip of med. glass cloth and brushed in a coat of clear Hobbypoxy
     2 part paint. I put it under the heat lamp for two hours and it
    was non-sticky to the touch. It will be 24 hours before I trim the
    edges however. This seems to be a good method, I probably will only
    use one coat as protection rather than perfect fill is my goal.
    
    At the same time I brushed on one coat of Hobbypoxy clear, on two
    scrap pieces of Obechi, one sanded, one not.
    These will be used as test cases to see how the Hobbypoxy filler
    works on obechi with the wood sealed first a la Jim's method.
    
    They were both dry to the touch after two hours under the heat lamp.
    I'm using the heat lamp all the time now with any sort of epoxy
    work, other than 5-minute type,of course; it sure speeds up the
    build-glue-wait cycle.
    
    Terry

What does it mean when they say things like.

This beauty has 99 coats of hand rubbed lacquer finish!

What do they hand rub?  Does this mean a light (wet?) sanding
between each coat?  If so what grit?

I have a finish I would like to make really shiny but
is uses an automotive acrylic lacquer that states that
clear coat is required - well - it is because the
paint comes out real dull and clear coat makes
it shiny - but in this case it would seem to me that
there would be nothing gained by sanding between
coats of the base color.  Surely you wouldn't put
on many coats of clear coat and sand between each -
would you?

Any retired auto body workers out there?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    I've never done any auto body work, but my father did, and was a
    cabinet maker for a while, and we've worked on several pieces of
    furniture together...
    
    Lacquer is best applied thin, so many thin coats are much better than a
    few thicker coats. If a coat really dries, then you should probably
    sand lightly between coats, otherwise you risk the lacquer not adhering
    well. If the the coat isn't quite dry, but really close, then you can
    just apply the next coat without sanding. What's "not quite dry?" Hard
    to describe, but it's the state where the lacquer has just ceased to be
    tacky.
    
    The more coats, the better the finish looks, but of course, the heavier
    the finish becomes. For furniture and cars, this doesn't really matter
    much...
    
    Anyway, the way to get a surface shiny is to make the surface really
    smooth. The way to do this is to start with a relatively rough abrasive
    and then work your way down to finer and finer abrasives. On furniture,
    I would start out with a fine sand paper, and progress to a rubbing
    compound, and finally a buffing compound. Toothpaste makes a pretty
    good buffing compound!
        
    	Marty Sasaki

>    Anyway, the way to get a surface shiny is to make the surface really
>    smooth. The way to do this is to start with a relatively rough abrasive
>    and then work your way down to finer and finer abrasives. On furniture,
>    I would start out with a fine sand paper, and progress to a rubbing
>    compound, and finally a buffing compound. Toothpaste makes a pretty
>    good buffing compound!
        
But Marty, I assume your talking about sanding before the lacquer is applied
right?

If not - you're talking about after the last coat - right?

What about clear coat?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    Smooth sand the surface before applying the finish, then a coat of
    sanding sealer, then some sanding. Wipe the surface really clean, use a
    tack cloth or a cloth dampened with mineral spirits. The smoother the
    surface is before you apply the finish, the less finish you will need
    to fill in the surface irregularities.
    
    Apply the finish. If you let it dry completely, then you must sand
    between coats, otherwise sand only if you have dust or drip marks.
    
    After the last coat, then start with really fine sandpaper, or go
    directly to the rubbing compound and graduate to a buffing compound.
    If you want a really shiny surface, then use some auto polish on the
    surface.
    
    The clear coat adds the illusion of depth. A really light sanding
    between the color coat and the clear coat will help with the clear coat
    adhering. 
    
    Some folks don't have problems with letting a coat really dry and then
    putting the next coat on. Sometimes, you won't need to polish the clear
    coat, it will be shiny enough.
    
    Of course, a finish like this will show up finger prints, dust, grease,
    fuel, etc., and after spending so much time working on the finish, I'm
    not sure if I would want to fly the plane, eventually you will have to
    bring it down and you will probably at least scratch the finish during
    the landing unless you catch the plane (while wearing a soft glove :-).
    
    	Marty

    Marty,
    
    Kay likes to paint. Why, I swear, he's put a touchup coat of paint onto
    his Chup wing in between every session! 8^)
    
    If you do a smooth blend between two colors, be careful with the
    sanding/rubbing. I took too much paint off along the edge of my CB99
    fuselage when I tried to level out a few drips. You really can't go
    back and match it very well afterwards (I went from yellow to red along
    the fuselage). My red required a clear coat also. I started with 600
    wet and didn't use it much before going to compound. I clear coated
    with epoxy over the (dried for 24 hours) lacquer and it gave me a nice
    tough, durable finish with a good shine.

    Earlier, I mentioned that the local hooby shop owner said that K&B
    wasn't producing their paint anymore due to problems with the EPA. I
    was down at the shop last week and he had a sign up saying that K&B was
    now available again. I asked about it and he said that K&B struck a
    ddeal with Royal to produce their paints for them. 

    I thought this would be appropriate considering how much Al preached
    about good sandpaper and finish quality. Original from Usenet
    
       <<< NOTED::DISK$NOTES1:[NOTES$LIBRARY_1OF5]WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS.NOTE;2 >>>
                           -< Woodworking and Tools >-
================================================================================
Note 1516.5                   From REC.WOODWORKING                        5 of 5
DOMINY::TAYLOR "no tool like an old tool."           53 lines  18-JUL-1991 08:47
                          -< Source of sandpaper... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Article         7190
Path: nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!pacbell.com!pacbell!rtech!mtxinu!sybase!orion!hsc
From: [email protected] (Howard Cohen)
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Subject: lots of sandpaper
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 16 Jul 91 16:42:02 GMT
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
Distribution: na
Organization: Sybase, Inc.
Lines: 40
 
Hi, I wanted to pass this along to anyone who is interested in acquiring a 
large quantity of high quality sandpaper for very little money.  There's
a company called "The Sanding Catalog" and they sell, you guessed it, sanding
products.  
 
Aside from the normal sanding products they sell, they also sell something
called the "Bargain Box".  This box contains rolls of sanding *cloth* in
different degrees of coarsness, and some sanding paper in the finer grits.  
You can ask for any combination of Coarse, Medium and Fine grits, including 
a selection of all three if you want.  The box costs $29, plus $2.50 shipping 
(plus CA and NC sales tax if applicable).  They send you over 20 pounds of 
sandpaper and sanding cloth.  This stuff is Klingspor sanding cloth.  They have
all these remnants because they make sanding belts, and their machines can't
use the last part of each roll.  (The last ten feet or more of each roll!)
 
You can call them and request a catalog or make an order at 800-228-0000,
or you can send them a request for a catalog (or an order) at:
 
	The Sanding Catalog
	P.O. Box 5069
	Hickory, NC 28603-5069
 
I have no affiliation with these people whatsoever, but I have bought two
"Bargain Boxes" and now have a nearly lifetime supply of the best sanding
products I could imagine using.  If you buy one of these gum-rubber Cleaning
Sticks(available through them as well as many other sources), you can make 
this sanding cloth last ten times as long as conventional sandpaper.  On your 
belt sander, these cleaning sticks make your belts last much longer as well.  
You clean the belt while the thing is on in about ten seconds, and the belts 
as good as new!
 
I'm sure others out there on the net have bought one of these "Bargain Boxes",
were you as happy with what you got?  Do other people use these "Cleaning
Sticks"?
 
	Howard
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Howard "I wood if I could" Cohen
  [email protected]  {pacbell,pyramid,sun,{uunet,ucbvax}!mtxinu}!sybase!hsc
  Sybase, Inc.    6475 Christie Avenue, Emeryville, CA 94608, 415-596-3406 

              Tip - painting aircraft roundels                 


The Spitfire is almost finished, and seeing as how people were interested in
tips, etc, I'd thought I'd post the method I'm using to paint the insignia on
the model. I'll describe the sequence for the standard British roundels (blue
outer circle, white middle circle, and red centre), however the technique is
suitable for any circular design.

First mark the centre of the roundel on the model with a soft pencil, then
build up the centre point with several layes of masking tape. This is because
the circles will be drawn with a compass, and you don't want the compass point
to dig into the model. Using a soft lead or pencil in a compass, draw a circle
slightly bigger than the inside blue diameter, and another slightly smaller
than the red diameter. The area inside these circles can then be filled in with
white - it doesn't matter if you go over the lines as long as the whole white
area is covered.

Now for the fun part. When the white is fully dry, it's time to paint the red
and blue areas. The outlines are drawn using a compass with a spring-bow type
of drawing point - these are designed for drawing in ink and have an adjusting
screw to vary the ink flow and line thickness. You just dip the tip into the
paint, and the bow acts like a resevoir holding enough to draw a resonable
sized circle. Use the appropriate colour paint to draw the outer blue, inner
blue, and outer red circles. The trick is to experiment first to get the paint
flow right, and then draw the circles in a single smooth, slow motion. Once the
outlines are drawn, the area in between can be filled by hand - even a very
thin outline provides a slight ridge which makes infilling quite easy (a thin
line is easier to draw well than a thick line).


Well that's how I'm doing the roundels (it's resonably easy), has anybody got
any ideas for the large letters on the fuselage sides? My best idea so far is
to cut them out of while self-adhesive labels and then varnish over them to
stop them lifting.

--
*********************************************************
Chris Kaiser
Postgrad - Elec Eng Dept
Canterbury University
Christchurch, NEW ZEALAND

E.MAIL: [email protected]
*********************************************************
	"When you're fresh out of lawyers
 	 You don't know how good it's gonna feel"
		- Al Stewart, 1988
*********************************************************


++++++++++++++++++++++ The full NEWS header follows +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
News Article 8975
Path: nntpd.lkg.dec.com!nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!comp.vuw.ac.nz!canterbury.ac.nz!elec140
Newsgroups: rec.models.rc
Subject: Tip - painting aircraft roundels
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (Chris Kaiser)
Date: 20 May 92 14:26:49 +1200
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand
Lines: 46

    Has anyone got an idea on how large a compressor tank is required to
    feed an air fed mask ? I suspect that it will vary from manufacturer to
    manufacturer (of the filter/air regulator for breathing). My setup has
    a 10 liter tank. The spraygun / airbrush operate at approx 30 psi. And
    the tank is kept at approx 90 - 110 psi. I suspect that it might be
    just enough. If anyone has such a setup I would be interested in
    hearing from 'ye. I am awaiting information from the distributor.
    
    Regards,
    
    Eric.

Ex-DECcie Chad Leigh is at WordPerfect in Utah now. He's been slope soaring on a 
hill behind work and another mountain. He's also been rubbing it in 8^)

Anyway, seems they're limited in what's available locally but he has some K&B
paint that he'd like to spray. He's wondering what "hardware store available" 
solvent he can use as a spray thinner. He's trying to avoid the mailorder route 
due to the hazardous chemical surcharges.

I'f you can'd send directly, post it here and I'll pass it along.

Jim


From:	US1RMC::"[email protected]" 13-JUL-1993 17:16:04.84
To:	3d::reith
CC:	
Subj:	K&B 2 part epoxy paint thinner?

Hi

Do you or anyone in RC.NOTE know what works
as a thinner for K&B 2part Epoxy paints (is that paint
the Super-poxy stuff?).  I have some of this paint at home
and would like to use it but need  a thinner first.

Thanks
Chad


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% Received: from WPCDEV1-Message_Server by WordPerfect.com with WordPerfect_Office; Tue, 13 Jul 1993 15:07:38 -060
% Message-Id: <[email protected]>
% X-Mailer: WordPerfect Office 4.0
% Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 15:11:06 -0600
% From: [email protected]
% To: 3d::reith
% Subject:  K&B 2 part epoxy paint thinner?

    It has been said (I think) in here somewhere before that you must use
    the K&B brand thinners for the paint. I use the K&B all the time but
    with the other K&B products. As for mail order - some will post it
    other won't due to the content. 
    
    I am thinking of using a cheaper paint and then using a car lacquer to
    finish off with. I got the manufacturers spec on a lacquer that they
    use over metallic paint and it says its nearly bullet proof. I did ask
    around before getting the lacquer for those who had used it just to be
    sure that it would work. Using this one can use the cheaper non fuel
    proof paints (read cheaper) and finish off with the lacquer. The K&B is
    expensive over here (somewhere in the $10 each for part A and B). And
    that's expensive especially if you are going with white or other hard
    to cover colors.
    
    All said I like using the K&B, especially in that it hardens fast and
    one can mask for the next color a few hours later. It's a pity there
    are not a few more colors in the range.
    
    Regards,
    
    Eric.

The problem hee in the states is that they have imposed the hazardous chemical 
surcharge on shipping and we get hit with it with fuel, paint, and other things. 
Adding $6 to the cost of a small quantity isn't very economical.

It's a per shipment charge so the hobby stores don't get hit quite as bad on
bulk orders.

    Well I finally got the clear lacquer onto the cowl. I have mixed
    feelings about the results. Firstly the lacquer seems to attract dust
    from the smallest corners of my workshop. I wasn't too impressed to see
    the dust, etc imbedded in the lacquer. If it had been one of my fuse's
    there would have been steam rising ! I never had this problem with
    spraying up to now and I have done a fair bit of spraying.
    
    Anyway, I decided to rub down part of the cowl with 1200 grade paper.
    Results were fine but lacked that real gloss finish. So to the wax. 
    It came up better but nowhere near as good as the unsanded lacquer
    finish. The unsanded part finish looks like the surface is sealed as
    opposed to the sanded/waxed part that appears less so. Bouncing light
    off both surfaces shows that the reflection off the unsanded part is always
    better nomatter what the viewing angle.
    
    The unsanded part is glossy but has imperfections in it. I talked to a
    friend who used to paint for a living and he noted that pressure on the
    gun, mixing, dust free environment (more so with lacquers) are
    important. He also noted that after waxing one has to sand down the
    surface and degrease etc before putting on another coat of the lacquer
    (if that was to be done). He is coming over tonight to have a look. So
    I will relate his observations tommorrow !
    
    Anyway it seems that I might have to use an alternative location to
    paint that is dust free to a greater extent (best alternative would be
    the bathroom - but can you imagine the negative points I would
    accumulate here !). Otherwise I might try seal / clean my workshop up a
    bit.
    
    When I arrived at the final finish I will then try it with fuel, oil,
    etc and post the results.
    
    Eric.

    Well my friend came over last night and had a look at the cowl. He
    brought some rubbing compound, wax, cloths and a buffing rag. The
    rubbing compound, which he got in the US was "Lustre 7" and he applied
    this and worked it for a good while. Then he polished this and applied
    the wax, again polishing. The results were impressive. The shine was
    super and the results as good as the unsanded lacquer, but without the
    imperfections. So afterwards I sanded down the remaining lacquer with
    1200 paper and applied the rubbing compund, wax etc and hay presto I
    had one nice looking piece of work. Its hard work rubbing, waxing, &
    polishing but thats what gives you the results. Now I will mount it and
    do tests on it over the next week or so.
    
    Now I have one more item for my flight box - Turtle Wax ! What next ?
    
    Regards,
    
    Eric.

    Results of using the lacquer and the cowl are good. No staining or
    other effects. I put 25% nitro fuel on it overnight and now have about
    2 hours up on the new cowl and it looks as good as new.
    
    Eric.

    I have been experimenting with painting foam wings sheeted with
    balsa and covered with .6 oz glass and thin epoxy laminating
    resin.
    
    I have the good fortune of a friend in the auto collison business
    who assisted with the spraying, to see if it was viable.
    
    The grain was filled with lightweight Red Devil spackle and sanded.
    An attempt was made to spray red, water based polyurethane without
    thinning(the directions on the can specifically say- do not thin).
    This proved difficult, as the polyurethane was really too thick
    and need to be sprayed using "gravity feed" resulting in rather
    uneven paint coverage.
    
    My friend suggested thinning the Varathane polyurethane with alchohol.
    He did this later in the week(when the shop was warm) using denatured
    alchohol.  I spoke with him on the phone and he said it went "alright"
    but the spray gun became somewhat clogged and was difficult to clean.
    He recommended that Isopropyl alchohol be used in the future(I had
    supplied the denatured alchohol).
    
    My father picked the wing up the other night(my friend and father live
    in the same town) and called to tell me how well it came out!  My
    friend had rubbed out part of the wing with finishing compound, which
    my father described as looking like "a new corvette" - very shiny and
    smooth.
    
    The reason I am interested in using water-base polyurethane is:
    1) Does not attack foam
    2) Dries to a very hard finish
    3) Most important - it is extremely light!
    
    The wings I have previously painted with lacquer/enamel paint have come
    out quite heavy, plus the solvents can cause problems if it comes into
    contact with the foam.  The polyurethane has proved significantly
    lighter, in fact used in conjuction with the .6 oz. glass it does not
    appear to be much heavier than film(oracover).
    
    I would like to do one more experiment before settling on a painting
    system.  Does anyone have experience/knowledge with water based
    acrylic paints?  I would like to try them.  The Pactra brand sold
    through Tower(pg. 281 '94 catalog) bosats - "They apply smoothly,
    leaving a finish that looks like the best high-gloss enamel, yet since
    they're water based, they clean up with water and cause no combustible
    or flammable hazards."
    
    Will the paint run when it rains?
    
    Any information appreciated.
    
    
                                                         Thanks,
    
                                                         Jim

I'm not sure if I read your note correctly, but did you thin Varathane
with alcohol?  I've used Varathane quite a bit in models and have
always thinned it with paint thinner. I don't think the alcohol will
thin it proprerly, and you may have gotten curdling from using the
wrong thinner.  Varathane is not water based.

Interesting that you used epoxy to laminate the glass.  I would think
that once you covered the foam, you could use ordinary resin and save
some pennies.

Nice job though.

    re: -1
    
    Varathane has come out with a line of colored water-based poly-
    urethane.  Minwax and Carver/Tripp also have water-based polyurethanes
    but not in colors.
    
    Jeff, the owner of the autobody shop felt that Isopropyl alchohol
    would thin the stuff enough to go smoothly through the gun.  It
    was curdling with the denatured alchohol.  He does not think
    that Isopropyl alcholol will attack foam.  I need to verify this.
    
    I exclusively use West epoxy resins because they cure reliably,
    have a reasonably long pot life, and do not attack foam.  It is
    peace of mind to know that even if any products do seep under
    the sheeting they will not eat away the foam.
    
    Jeff, has a sophisticated, expensive custom paint mixing system
    which includes an incredibly accurate scale.  It will weigh a
    page torn from the phone book.  I will be weighing a before
    and after wing the next time to see how much weight the 
    .6 oz. glass/epoxy resin/water-based polyurethane actually weighs.
    
    The next wing will be sprayed with water-based primer in lieu of
    the spackle to hopefull decrease the elbow grease time.  I will
    report on these results.
    
    BTW- I do not know if the polyurethane is fuel resistant or not.
    I will test and also report on this.
    
    
                                               Regards,
    
                                               Jim

    If you have glass/epoxy over the foam, you could spray any paint over
    it without risk to the foam.  I use K&B Epoxy which will eat foam.  I
    would stick with Epoxy for covering because resin could go through the
    sheeting and attack the foam.  Polyurethanes should be pretty fuel
    proof.  They take several days to cure.  Formula U is a polyurathane
    and it is fuel proof at least to normal fuel 10% nitro.
    
    Charlie
    

    Well I have completed my experimentation with water base polyurethane.
    I tried thinning it with methanol, isopropyl alchohol, and water.
    For comparision I also dis test panels with Krylon and Pactra
    Fromula U polyurethane.
    
    At this point, I cannot recommend the use of the waterbase polyurethane.
    Although it definitely was lighter than the Krylon and Formula-U, it
    is very difficult to spray evenly.  Even thinned 50%, it tends to be
    quite thick.   The Formula-U looks nice, but the long dry time allows
    quite a bit of dust to collect.
    
    My final experiment will be with Pactra water based acrylic.
    
    I really would like to get away from film.
    
    Btw: the best surface finish I have produced came from the glass pane
    method, but this complicates fairing in the leading edge and wing tips.
                           

    I tested Pactra Waterbase Acrylic enamel this weekend using an
    el-cheapo Preval sprayer.  Like the waterbase polyurethane, it
    is rather difficult to apply evenly.
    
    With the limited amount of spraying I do, I am not interested
    in buying a spray rig at this time.  I think the water-base 
    paints will require this equipment to gert consistent results.
    
    The Formula-U sprayed straight from the can and wet sanded with
    1000 grit, then 1500 grit, finally rubbed out with polishing
    compound has produced a great finish.
    
    Finishing added .5 oz. to a 16" test panel with an 8" root and 6.5"
    tip, so about 5 oz. would be added to the typical F5B wing.  Still a
    bit heavy, unfortunately.

    What is the fastest, easiest yet good looking paint finishing method
    for a plane that has a fiberglass fuse/balsa sheeted wing?  
    
    Emphasis is on fast and easy.  I have to have a plane that is ready for
    glassing at the Toledo expo in a little over 3 weeks from now.
    
    Thanks,
    
    PS I'm thinking: dope the glass on, a few more coats of dope, primer, then
    paint.
    

    I would cover the wing with film and apply trim as required. The
    fibergalss fuse probably would only need a coat of primer to fill any
    pin holes, low spots etc followed by a coat of paint.
    
    I would give the spray the fuse with one colour and apply trim as
    desired. 
    
    System is going down urgently so I gota go.
    
    Eric.

I applied .6oz glass to a fully sheeted fuselage with epoxy paint and 
then filled the grain and primed. Thinned lightweight spackle makes a 
good initial filler and a coat of epoxy clear paint over it will toughen 
it up. This is the lightest method to do 90% of the filling and is 
probably the quickest. Primer alone is too heavy.

    Well, I am almost done spraying my new Junkers CL-I, a WWI monoplane;
    80" wingspan plane...
    
    A bit of background..  It is a balsa-sheeted foam core wing.  The fuse 
    is built up balsa with sheeting.  The entire model was fiberglassed
    with Dan Parson's glass and Hexcel laminating epoxy.  I used Dupont
    Acrylic Laquers and *basically* followed what Al Casey wrote some time
    ago...  
    
    The color scheme is light blue under surfaces, green upper surfaces
    with wide purple stripes with wavey edges.  (one on each wing, 2 on the
    sides and over the top of the fuse and one on each side of the
    horizontal tail surfaces.  The rudder/vert fin is white.   There are
    black crosses on the rudder, fuse and wings (top and bottom).  I
    decided not to do white outlines on the crosses.
    
    I had considered applying the fiberglass with colored epoxy paint, but 
    there is very little variety of color available.  I would have had to 
    mix the paints myself.  It was much easier to get the local auto shop
    to do it for me... :-) 
    
    Differences/Lessons Learned:
    
    - Surface prep really does make a tremendous difference.  There are good
    places and not so good places..   With each additional layer, more and
    more defects showed up.
    
    - In an attempt to save time/weight/effort, I bypassed the second coat of
    epoxy after applying the glass.  This would have been a MAJOR mistake
    if I had a WWII fighter.  Throughout the plane you can see the weave of
    the cloth.  This is OK as this is a WWI model, so it looks kinda 
    natural.  Major oooppps if I had been trying to get the aluminum 
    panel look.
    
    - Shelf paper for masking...  It had its good and bad sides..  
       
       On the  good side is the ability to lay out the gentle, long curves
       of the camouflage.  Masking tape would have been difficult to get a
       smooth curve.  I layed the paper on the bench, and in a single
       stroke of the knife cut the wavey pattern.  I came out pretty well.
       
       One bad thing was that it tended to leave some sticky residue on the 
       plane.  I haven't quite figured out what, if anything I am going to 
       do to this before I clear coat.  It should be noted that this seemed
       to be worse in places that got a lot of overspray, so perhaps the
       paint/thinner got to it...
       
       It also peeled up paint in 1 or 2 places..  1 place I lost a
       significant chip.  I think there is another place I need to touch up
       before the clear coat where the paper peeled it up.
       
       I should note that I had more of these problems with the fresher
       paint surfaces..  The undersides of the wing and fuse were painted
       first and had to set for about a week before it got dry/cool enough
       to paint again.  These areas did not show these problems.  The
       colors that had only been on a couple of days had more problems.
       
       I also had mixed luck with the edges of masked areas.  As I said,
       I masked most everything with shelf paper.  There were places where
       I needed to use a knife blade to keep from pulling the newer stuff
       up and other places came off fine.   I suspect that this may have
       been related to the thickness of the paint in those areas.  I really
       screwed up one cross.
   
    - I did use masking tape in a few areas and they seemed to work out
    well.  In the future, I will probably use more masking tape for
    striaght lines and only use shelf paper for more complex items.
   
    - I did spray all masks with a coat of the color that was underneath to
    seal the edges.  This seemed to work pretty well.  I used an airbrush 
    but I did get under the mask in a couple of spots..  You REALLY have to 
    make sure that you mask is stuck down...
   
    - I don't believe that the process added a whole lot of weight... 
    Without engine (Enya 1.20 4C :-) or batteries, I am at about 6.5# now.
    The paint has added less than 0.5# and the glass added maybe 0.75#. All
    up weight should be around 10#, so the 1.20 should have no problem!
    
    - Computers are wonderful for making masks!!  The crosses are straight
    crosses (not "maltese").  I created a cross on my PC with a paint
    program that was symetrical.  I then imported this into Word for
    Windows and scaled the crosses to the 3 sizes I needed.  (4", 5.25" and
    11").  I then printed them out on the laser printers.  I then used 
    spray adhesive and attached the uncut crosses to pieces of shelf paper.
    I then cut out the crosses AND shelf paper with an X-acto and straight 
    edge.  This worked out very well and I was very happy with it.
    
    Overall I am pretty happy with the outcome.  It is MUCH better than my
    first attempts with the Bristol some years ago.  From a few yards it
    even looks respectable.  Hoping to see it fly this weekend!
    
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    
   

         <<< VMSZOO::DISK$NOTES:[NOTES$LIBRARY]REC_MODELS_RC.NOTE;1 >>>
                           -< rec.models.rc shadow >-
================================================================================
Note 977.0  [Air:] Preping and Painting a Fiberglass Fuselage (long)  No replies
::Michael Walpole "[email protected] (Michael Walpo" 224 lines  26-SEP-1994 18:16
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	How to Prepare and Paint Fiberglass Fuselages


As some of you out there know, I fly pattern.  While in pattern,
unlike control-line stunt and Formula One pylon, the model's finish
isn't specifically judged, I feel it is important to put a good finish
on an airplane for several reasons.  First of all, a good pattern
plane is framed up with a lot of care to insure that it is built
straight.  With all that time invested to frame up a straight
airplane, you wouldn't want to put a mediocre finish on it, would you?
Lastly, and this is just my opinion, I believe that an airplane with a
nice finish will be judged better than an airplane with a crappy
finish.  Why?  Most people will look at an airplane with a crappy
finish and figure right off that bat that it is poorly built.  Human
nature being what it is, this has to influence how a person thinks the
plane will fly.  Since judges at a pattern contest get a good look at
each plane on takeoff and landing, I think it's likely, remember the
human nature thing again, that a poor finish on an airplane will
influence scores negatively.

On the last pattern plane I built, the Python, I used the Dupont
Chroma System to paint the airplane.  This is a rather large, as
pattern planes go, airplane.  I managed, using the system I described,
to get a very nice finish and a plane that weighed under 10 lbs.  What
I intend to talk about in this post is how to prep a fiberglass
fuselage for painting and how to paint it with the Chroma Base paint
and Chroma-X clear.  There are really 2 parts to this process: prep
and painting.  The prep work will basically be the same for any finish
system.  The painting will be more specific to the Chroma System.

Preping the fiberglass fuselage:

The first thing that has to be done to fiberglass is to break the
glaze so that paint will stick to it.  I recomend using a Scotch Brite
pad, the red or burgundy one, not the green one, to break the glaze.
The Scotch Brite pad works real well since it is flexible and can get
into all those hard to reach places.  Go over the whole fuselage until
is has a dull finish.

All fiberglass fuselages have a seam where the halves are joined and
usually there is some flash on the seam.  All the flash needs to be
scraped off and the seam needs to be sanded smooth.  A machinist
scraper works real well for scraping the seam flush and wet sanding
with 220 paper will get the seam pretty smooth.

At this point the seam might be flush and smooth in most places, but
there will still be some cavaties in the seam that have to be filled
in.  You can used either slow cure epoxy mixed with talc or automotive
spot putty.  Some people have said that automotive spot putty will
shrink over time and crack the finish.  I personnally have never had
that happen.  In either case, apply the epoxy and talc or spot putty
to the seam and let dry.  Wet sand with 220 until the seam is smooth
and flush.  Inspect the seam and repeat in any areas needed.

At this point, with the seam filled in wipe all the dust off the fuse
with a slightly damp rag or cloth; then dry it with a paper towel.
(BTW, Scott Shop Towels, the blue ones, work well for this kind of
stuff.)  Then take a tack rag and wipe any remaining dust and lint off
the fuselage.  At this point, inspect the fuse for any pin holes.
What happens next depends on if you find a lot of pin holes or not.
More then likely you won't be able to see most of the pin holes until
you put on the first coat of primer.

If you know that there will be a lot of pin holes then I recomend the
following procedure.  Mix up some slow cure epoxy, like Hobby Poxy
Formula II.  Mix 1 part A, 1 part B, and 2 parts methanol.  Mix the A
& B parts thoroughly before mixing in the methanol.  What you'll have
here is a very thin mixture of epoxy.  Take a 3/4" paint brush and
paint the whole fuse with this thin mixture of epoxy.  Be careful not
to get any runs, but if you do, wipe them off with a rag dipped in
methanol.  Let this dry for 24 hours and then dry sand with 320 paper
to break the glaze.  If you are worried about weight, don't.  This
process adds 2 oz. at best to the overall weight of the plane.

Whether you coated the fuselage with a thin coat of epoxy or not, at
this point the fuselage is ready for primer.  I particularly like
Dupont Acrylic Laquer Primer since it is easy to use and it dries
quickly.  I suggest using a touch-up gun or an airbrush to spray the
primer.  I also recomend using a little more thinner than recomended
to reduce the primer.  I use 1.5 - 2 parts thinner for 1 part primer.
This way I can put the primer on pretty thin.  To prep the fuse, I
wipe off all the dust with a dry cloth or rag, then I use a tack rag
to pick up anything that is left.  What I do first is to spray a very
light coat of primer on the whole fuse.  I do this so the primer won't
run and so the 2nd pass of primer will have something to stick to.  I
put the 2nd pass of primer on thick enough so that it just becomes
opaque.  At this point if there are any pin holes, they will become
visable now.  To get rid of these pin holes, this is what you do.
Where there is a pin hole, or pin holes, spray a heavy amount of
primer right on the pinhole.  Then take your finger and rub the primer
into the pin hole.  (Wear latex gloves when you do this!)  Do this for
all the pinholes you can find.

Now that you have a coat of primer on the fuse, the next step is to
sand it all off.  Use 320 paper and dry sand all the primer off.
(BTW, get a lot of 320 paper because you will need it.)  Also, you
don't actually sand all the primer off.  If you did, you would get
into the gel coat and open up new pin holes.  Just sand it until there
is hardly any primer left, don't sand into the fiberglass.  Once all
the primer is sanded off, repeat the previous step.  Keep doing this
until all the pin holes have been discovered and filled.  This
normally takes 2 - 3 coats of primer.  By sanding the primer off
you're not adding weight though.

At this point you should have put on a coat of primer and not found
any pin holes.  This time, dry sand almost all of the primer off with
600 paper.  The fuselage is now ready for paint.


Painting with Dupont Chroma System Paint and Clear: 

OK, the whole point of doing all the prep work is to produce a smooth
base to paint on.  At this point the fuselage should be smooth and
ready for paint.  I don't know about you, but, since I build to fly,
the goal is to put on just enough paint to achieve a good finish
without adding any unnecessary weight.  Saving weight is the reason
for sanding off nearly all the primer.  The only thing the primer
really does is to help find the surface irregularities/imperfections
so they can be fixed before painting.  The paint would probably stick
to the fiberglass just fine, but it would harder, with a higher weight
penalty, to fix the imperfections.

First thing to do is to figure out your paint scheme in advance.  The
reason is simple; you want to paint the light colors first and the
dark colors last.  Most pattern planes seem to be painted with light
colors in the middle and darker colors on top and bottom, so that is
the case I will describe.

Let's say for this example that white is the base color and that the
top of the fuselage will be painted red and the bottom dark blue.  I
would start by painting the fuselage sides and the fin white.  I would
not mask anything off at this point; I would just make sure that
everything that I wanted to be white, was white.  Then I would mask
off the top of the fuselage and paint it red.  Lastly I would mask off
the bottom and paint it dark blue.  This kind of stuff is pretty much
true no matter what you are painting with.

The Dupont Chroma Base paint is a fast drying urathane.  This paint
dries tack free in 2 minutes and is completely dry in 15 minutes.  It
is mixed 50 - 50 with the Chroma System Basemaker (reducer), which
thins it enough for spraying.  I recomend spraying it with either a
touch-up gun or an air brush.

Then only thing I do to the fuselage before painting is to wipe all
the dust off the fuselage with a dry rag and then use a tack rag to
remove the remaining lint and dust.  I then spray a light, tranlucient
coat of paint just to get coverage.  I continue spraying light coats
of paint until the paint becomes opaque.  As a test to make sure I
don't put too much paint on, I shine a flashlight inside the fuselage.
I should be able to see the light through the paint, but the paint
should be opaque when the flashlight is turned off.  If you can't see
the flashlight through the paint, you already have more than enough
paint.  (Note: The flashlight test only works with light colors.)

When painting a dark color, use the same method.  What you want to do
with a color is to get even color with the right shade.  Once you have
that, stop.  After that, all you are adding is weight.

Before clear coating is the time to add any decals or lettering.  By
clear coating over the decals they will never come off the plane.

With the Chroma Base paint, there is no need to wet sand before clear
coating.  This paint covers extremely well and even fills in minor
perfections.  (Not pin holes though; they are not minor
imperfections.)  This paint actually dries sort of soft so you have to
be careful how you handle the plane before you clear coat it.

The only thing that needs to be done before clear coating is to go
over the fuselage with a tack rag and remove any dust or lint.  Mix
the Chroma-X Clear with the catalyst and it's ready to spray.  The
Chroma-X clear with catalyst is tack free in 15 minutes and ready to
sand in 4 hours.  Make sure you spray with plenty of pressure, 20 - 30
lbs., or it leave a rough surface or orange peal.  I spray a thin coat
on first and then go back over it immediatly with a heaver coat.  The
Chroma-X clear looks almost like it is going to orange peal when it's
painted.  As it dries the orange peal disapears.

The Chroma-X clear dries with a nice shine on it and doesn't need much
in the way of finishing.  However, there may be some rough areas from
overspray.  These areas can be wet sanded out with 1000 followed by
1500 grit wet or dry paper.  Once these areas are smoothed out then
they can be hand rubbed with rubbing or polishing compound.  Next, I
rub out the whole fuselage with 3M Finesse-it.  This is a fine
polishing compound that will bring out a nice shine.  Lastly, I use
Meguires number 7 resin glaze.  This really brings out the shine,
makes the paint look about 2 inches deep, and helps to protect the
finish.  The Meguires #7 also puts a nice shine on Monokote too;
really makes it look nice.

That's basically the technique.  I suggest you take all the necessary
precautions when painting.  These include wearing long pants and a
long sleve shirt, gloves, eye protection, and last, but not least, a
good respirator.  Paint in a well ventalated area.  (I actually paint
in the garage with the door open or outside.)  If you have access to a
properly setup paint booth, then use it.  When working with the
fiberglass, wear a long sleve shirt and pants and a dust mask.  Gloves
are a good idea too if your hands are sensitive.

That's it.  If you have any questions about how to do any of it, just
ask and I will attempt to answer them.

Disclaimer: I do not work for or get paid by Dupont, or anybody else
in the paint industry, to use or promote their paint.  I just happen
to like the stuff and have had good luck with it.
_________________________________________________________________
 Mike Walpole     |      This space       |      [email protected]
 Mead Data Central|     accidentally      |...!uunet!meaddata!msw
 Miamisburg, OH   |      left blank!      |
(513)865-1086     |                       |


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News Article 22525
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From: [email protected] (Michael Walpole)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rc
Subject: [Air:] Preping and Painting a Fiberglass Fuselage (long)
Date: 26 Sep 1994 21:05:26 GMT
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
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Distribution: na
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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    Well, after spendng a week or more reading this "Let Us Spray" note, I
    tried the well recommended shelf paper for making stencils for the Ford
    Trimotor and and they worked well.
    
    Some observations on this process:
    
    1. The stencil was placed on the flat fin and the base coat of silver
       was applied so that there would be no "bleeding" under the stencil,
       then two coats of red was applied.  The results was good but theree
       was a noticeable thickness in the lettering/
    
    2. The stencil was placed on the fuse (which is corrugated) and only a
       few areas can be painted since the stencil will not adhere all of
       the fuse sides.  Then the srtencil was removed and the balance of
       the writing was free handed.  This is a killer since I had to paint
       looking down on the side, paint looling straight into the side and then
       from underneath because of the three side of the corrugation.  This
       has taken about 30 hours so far and I still have one side of the
       fuse to to complete.
    
    As they say, there is a real learning experience in trying to build
    stand-off scale.  Boy, what a project to build "sho 'nough" scale.
    
    Ollie
    

Ollie,
how did you do the corrigation?  I don't remember anything about that in the
construction artical.

    Dan,
    
    The corrigation was done by cutting out the sides of the fuse from
    sheet balsa than then placing it flat on the building board and gluing
    1/16th sticks from the top of the fuse side to the bottom.  These were
    glued 1/16" apart and took 42 of them to do the job on each side.
    
    I learned a lot in doing this since the 1/16th ply doubler was epoxied
    to the inside of the fuse side after the 1/16th sticks were glued and
    the epoxy leaked through all of the pin holes in the fuse side and made
    little round dots on the outside of the fuse side.  This required me to
    remove each of them individually and it took almost a month to do this
    job.  Boy, the price one pays to build a stand off scale model.
    
    Each of the 1/16th sticks were then lightly sanded to round them to
    look like a one piece corrigated side.  I then used balsaa filler coat
    to seal the sides and had to lightly sand netween each stick as each
    coat of clear, silver and trim was applied.
    
    I now have about 1200 hours in building time (this includes doing some
    parts 2 or 3 times to get it right).  I painted the pilot, co-pilot and
    passengeers on the flat window and then glued the windshields and
    windows on top of them - it looks neat.
    
    There is only some minor detail left (running dummy .047 music wire
    from both sides of the rudder and top and bottom elevators up the
    outside of the fuse into the wing and installing the 3 dummy exhaust
    pipes on the underside of the fuse.
    
    The biggest problem left is trying to find some dark blue 4" numbers
    and letters for the top and bottom of the wing.
    
    This baby better fly good and for a long time.  I think I could have
    built 5 or 6 fun fly planes in this time.
    
    Ollie 

    Well I've begun to cover my long-ez and this is my FIRST attempt at it.
    I'm covering with 3/4 oz. glass cloth and have done three different
    methods:
    	1. Glass with heated finishing epoxy. Put both resin and hardner in
    micro-wave heat on high for 1 min. combine set ammount and apply to
    surface.
    	2. Glass (same as -1.) without heating epoxy.
    	3. Glass using thin CA.
    Using the heated epoxy was the best way that I found. It took the
    longest but the results were by far the best. I did use the Dupont "77"
    to hold the glass secure for the first and second but not the third.
    I will have to get some primer and really see how I did.
    
    I would also like to comment on this notes file, many authors here have
    gone but without this notesfile I couldn't do 1/10 of what I've done.
    
    Bruce
      

    I forgot to say that I also used the butt-wipe method to remove exess
    epoxy, it worked fine with the heated epoxy but the unheated began
    to set and didn't come out as good.
    
    Bruce
    

    one thing that I tried that wasn't too bad was to use a hair dryer to
    warm the epoxy once applied. This helps the epoxy flow and smooth and
    made the removal of bubbles easier. Did you really consider CA covering
    a full-size? Wow!
    
    BTW: the F77 method works well with CA since the PH of the F77 kicks
    the CA. The downside of the CA method is it generates lumps of hard CA
    that are difficult to sand off without damaging the cloth you've
    applied.
    
    The other method that works well with models and would transfer in
    scale is using epoxy paint as the bonding agent. This will paint on
    easily and is thin enough to not need wiping. If you don't feel
    comfortable with paint, thin the epoxy with alcohol 50/50 and it will
    paint on. This is also covered in here and maintains the epoxy
    strength.

    Did I miss something??  (probably!;-)
    
    Why heat the epoxy in the microwave or with a hair drier?
    
    Bruce, what kind of epoxy are you using that was kicking off too soon
    to do the toilet paper trick??  I usually use 45 minute epoxy, thinned
    with alcohol for center sections and medium size areas.  If I am doing
    larger areas, I use 24hr hexcel epoxy.  All the working time you 
    want!!
    
    Cheers!
    jeff
    

    
    Jim,
    Would you epoxy spray, then primer, and then spray again? 
    
    Covering full scale with CA uuummmmmmm what a great Idea!!!!;^)){
    
    Bruce
    

    
    It mentions to apply to layers of cloth in curtain sections. Would you
    epoxy both at the same time or two individual steps??
    
    Thanks
    again
    
    Bruce
    

    
    -.465
    Jeff,
    I'm using a 20 minute finishing epoxy, and on the label it says for
    best results heat before mixing. It worked very well poured out like
    milk worked it in and removed the excess befor it began to set. I just
    wanted to remove the alcohol as an added variable. I was very pleased
    with this results..... now when I do the main wing I may have other
    problems. The hair dryer sound like it will work as well for me! 
    
    I may should try the alcohol just to see how it does work. I may like
    it better than any of the above mentioned.
    
    Bruce
    
    

    I have done quite a bit of epoxying over the last couple of years and
    have had nothing but success using WEST system products.
    
    I am leary of cutting epoxy with alcohol due to a bad experience.
    
    If you are using a good laminating resin like West 105 Resin with the
    slow 206 hardener you will not need to heat it to get it to wet out.
    
    WEST epoxy cures out in lower temperatures than other epoxies I've
    tried.  My basement is in the 50's and it always cures nice and hard.
    
    Do not gamble with epoxy, use the proven stuff.  It is too much work to
    fix something if the epoxy doesn't cure properly or if it sets up too
    fast.
    
    I recommend WEST as you can tell.
    

Bruce, when I used the paint method I always applied it with a brush to fully
saturate the cloth and spread the cloth out to remove wrinkles. Once bonded, you
can finish the weave in your favorite way. I too am using the West system and
use the 205 hardener which is 8 hours and will reportedly cure to 40F. A high
quality, low water content alcohol will thin it without effecting the bond. I
got reassurances from Tom @Tom's Hobby Korner, who's training is process
chemistry. His son's providing Tower with all their epoxy products and he's been
in the adhesive business for 20+ years. I had a really good discussion with him
about the formulation of hobbypoxy's Smooth and Easy sandable resins.

    
    
           Need some Help. Has anyone used Black Baron Clear over Century
    21 spray paint? 
    
           Here's the deal, I have painted my X-cell heli canopy and fins
    with Century 21 spray paint. The instructions say that Black Baron
    clear can be used over the Century 21 to protect decals,etc.
           I have added several decals to the canopy/fins and purchased a
    can of Black Baron Clear (gloss). Reading the instructions on the back
    of the Black Baron Clear, it states the clear is NOT "water clear" but
    will be invisible over any color EXCEPT white.
    
           You guessed it! Part of my canopy is painted white. The white
     area has 2 black decals applied that need to be protected. 
    
           I have basically resigned myself to spraying a test piece with
    Century 21 ( both white and burnt orange ), waiting a day , and then
    spraying the clear on the test piece and see what happens. I was just
    wondering what experiences ( if any ), that otheres have had with this
    combo.
    
                                                             Dan

    Dan,
    
    The Black Baron clear has a very faint yellow tint to it.  I have not
    tried any other clears over Century 21 paint, but have applied trim
    colors from "Rustoleum" brand spray bombs with no problems.  They claim
    nothing but their own products are compatible with C21.  I would make up
    'several' test strips at one time and then try your favorite brands.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Chris

    Dan,
    
    	I used Black Baron on the Tippo. Granted it wasn't over Century 21
    paint, but I think the point BB is making is that their clear will
    yellow over time. It's not really apparent unless you have new or
    untreated white next to it.
    
    	Always best to do a "test" though.
    
    Steve

    
    
           Thanks for the relies. I made up a couple test pieces last
    night. They will be dry by tonight, so I will do some test spraying
    with the BB clear and see what happens.
    
                                  

I'd suggest masking a stripe across it so you can compare with and without side
by side.

    
    
        Thats exactly what I have done. I will only "Clearcoat" 1/2 of each
     of the white and orange test samples so I can compare them to the
     actual color. If BB clear isn't satisfactory, I will try clear Rustoleum 
     as Chris suggested to see which is worse. If neither work
     satisfactorily, I may just forgo the clearcoat as glo fuel residue
     isn't as big of deal on a heli as on an airplane ( unless I go to 30%
     nitro! :)

    I would recommend that you skip the clear coat. I clear coated my
    concept with formula U clear (which has the exact same wording) and I
    was unhappy enough about it that I ended up stripping the whole thing
    bare and re painting. Also I beleive the stickers that come from
    Miniature Aircraft (if thats what you are using) are supposed to be
    fuel proof.
    
    However clear coating does make everything look much nicer. I don't
    use white on my models anymore if I can avoid it because of the
    problems clear coating over it.
    
    I have used K&B Epoxy over white and if you apply it thin enough
    it doesn't yellow things much, but I suspect it would take the 21st Century
    paint right off your canopy.
    
    Wayne

    
       Some of the decals are the "Miniature" ones, but the ones that
    REALLY need protection are the "JR PROPO" that are on the white part of
    the canopy. I may just clear coat the orange areas and take my
    chances with the decals on the white.
    
       This clear coat stuff IS a pain though, besides not being clear,
    it takes forever to dry! They recommend 30 minutes between coats and
    then 7 DAYS until it is fuelproof. The Century 21 can be recoated
    every 3 minutes, is dry to the touch in 15, and is fuelproof in 12
    hours!
          
       

    Dan,
    
    FYI - I like and use Century 21 paints almost exclusively now if I feel
    like spraying from a can.
    
    When I want the best looking and lightest spray job (within my
    abilities); I use K&B epoxy.
    
    Both are quick drying.  I can't stand the 7 day stuff.  I messed up too
    many nice spray jobs later because the paint was'nt cured enough to
    handle or tolerate fuel residue.
    
    Happy spraying!
     
    

    Yeah,
    
    It is unfortuate that clear paint isn't really clear. I've never used
    the Black Baron stuff myself, but I've heard that it takes at least a
    week to become fuel proof. Formula U has the same problem. The other
    thing I don't like about Formula U (Black Baron may have the same
    problem) is that you can't put ANYTHING over it. If you have to make a
    repair to a base coat (which in my case is either K&B or Car paint)
    you have to strip the whole thing bare because all the base coat stuff
    I use attacks the formula U.
    
    Wayne
    

    
         I sprayed my test pieces with the BB Clear last night. I sprayed
    three light coats at 30 minute intervals as directed. One test piece
    was orange, and the other was white with decals applied.
    
         I was TOTALLY dissapointed in the results!
    
         First, the clear coat seemed to build a static electricity charge
    that attracted every bit of lint and dust it could find.
    
         Second, the result looked worse on both test samples compared with
    just the base coat. What suprised me the most is it destroyed any gloss
    there already was on the base coat, and it looked horrible over the
    decals! I would have expected the "clear" to add both gloss and depth
    (it did neither ).
    
         I have decided to just stay with the base coats, take my chance
    with the decals, and declare the paint job complete. The good news is
    I don't have to wait another week for the paint to dry before I fly
    it!
    
        Re: Century 21
    
         At this point, I am only spraying from cans, and I use the Century
     21 for everything. It is easy to spray, dries quickly, has a VERY
     fuelproof finish, and it looks decent. The ONLY complaint I have is
     it always leaves somewhat of an "orange peel" finish.
    
         
   

    I have never used Century 21 paint...
    
    Can't you use K&B clear over it??
    
    jeff
    

    
        They claim you can only use Century 21 OVER Century 21 in regard
    to the base colors, but in regard to clear coats, all they state is
    that Black Baron Clear can be used over the Century 21. They don't 
    specifically state that other "clears" can't be used, but instead I
    think they are only bothering to mention their own product.
        Chris mentioned Rustoleum clear as an alternative to try. K+B is
    out for me because I am only spraying out of cans at the moment and
    don't really want to get into the spray gun/compressor "scene" at this
    point.

    Clarification
    
    I have used pigmented rustoleum colors over C21.  
    
    I have not tried rustoleum "clear" at all.   Try it on a test piece
    before you get to the real job at hand.
    
    It appears that many manufacturer's "clear" paints are of a different
    formulation than their pigmented colors.  Formula-U and C21/BB are
    examples of this.
    
    

                                                
      I went across the street at lunch to K-mart to pick up a can of "clear"
    Rustoleum. They carried the brand, but no "clear". I picked up a
    can of "clear" Krylon Acrylic Enamel to try instead. It says on the can
    "it goes on clear, and stays clear". Don't know if it will work, but
    I will run a test. For $2.07 a can, I can always just write off the
    cost as an experiment! :). Even if it passes, I will not spray anything
    else until I am confident it is fully cured.

    Dan,
    
    I have not personally used the Krylon brand for RC, however a friend of
    mine has and he says it is fuel proof.  
    
    I would still do a test to be sure though.
    
    Happy spraying...
    
    

    I thought about using the Krylon clear acrylic on the Tippo and
    did a test piece first.
    
    I only let it dry overnight and then dropped some "raw" fuel on the
    clear. It WASN'T fuel proof.
    
    Now maybe it needs to "cure" for a longer period of time and maybe
    fuel "residue" won't be as bad as raw fuel. Don't know as I chocked
    it off the list.
    
    I'm pretty sure the "automotive" acrylic paints are fuel proof. Maybe
    the automotive clear acrylic would be too.
    
    I tried 3 or 4 different brands and types of clear from the hardware
    store before breaking down and buying the Black Baron. I DID NOT try
    automotive clear.

    
    
         Saturday I "clear coated" two more test pieces using Krylon
     Clear Acrylic Enamel. There were not any compatibility problems with the
     Century 21 base coats and it provided a perfectly clear and glossy
     coating ( MUCH better than Black Baron clear! ). Like Century 21,
     it is recoatabel almost immediatly ( 5 minutes ), dries to the
     touch in 12 minutes and can be handled in one hour.
    
         I have not yet checked if the coating is fuel proof. I am letting
      the test pieces thoroughly dry for several days first. It will be a
      bummer if it isn't fuel proof as it goes on, and looks really nice. 

    I have used automotive paints and most are fuelproof.  Their downfall
    is they are heavy.  Of course, I am talking about the two and three
    part mix types that are sprayed from a regular spray gun.
    
    You will find that any paint that is urethane based will be fuel proof. 
    Also, most epoxy paints are too.
    
    Definitely let us know how the Krylon clear works out.  

            
    
        I am unhappy ro report that Steve was absolutely correct ( I HATE
    having to admit that! :), Krylon "clear" is NOT fuelproof. It only
    took about 5 minutes for raw 15% fuel to eat through the finish after
    I had let it dry for 5 days. 
    
        
    Next Step: 
    
        I have a small spray gun/propellent can set up, Does anybody know
    if that will work to spray K+B clear? What clean up is required with
    the K+B?

Yes, the epoxy paint will work thinned 50-50. I have done it with the small
badger brush and propellant can. Cleanup is just running straight thinner
through the gun afterwards.

Jim

    
       Thanks Jim, I mean Steve, I mean, ..... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
    
    
       I assume K+B sells a thinner? 
    
       So let me get this straight, the K+B clear is a 2 part paint?
    
       If so, you mix the two parts and then thin it 50%, then spray?
    
     
       More questions:
    
             -  how long between coats? 
    
             -  any sanding needed between coats? 
    
             -  how long until it is dry, how long until fuelproof? 
    

    
       couple more,
    
            Is it a Gloss or Satin finish?
    
            Is it clear, does it dry clear over white?
    
            Does it tend to yellow with time?

>        I have a small spray gun/propellent can set up, Does anybody know
>    if that will work to spray K+B clear? What clean up is required with
>    the K+B?

I have mentioned this in the past but will re-warn.

K&B two part epoxy clear does yellow and peal.  I have used it on
a few airplanes and it did not look good after 6 months.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    Dan,
    
    As Jim stated, K&B can be sprayed through a small sprayed like a
    Badger, etc...  The down side is this:  It is a very fine, light spray. 
    It takes forever to paint anything other than trim or very small parts.
    
    Another way to spray paints that need to be mixed (K&B, HobbyPoxy,
    etc..) is a Preval (brand name) Sprayer.  This is an inexpensive little
    aerosol sprayer.  You mix your own paint and it sprays it just like a
    spray can does. 
    
    A brief description:  When you buy the setup ($5-6 in this area), you
    get a small (4-6 oz) glass jar with a propellant/spray head combo that 
    screws on top.  You keep the jar and just buy replacement propellant/spray
    heads as needed.  Replacements run around $3 or so in this area.  You
    can generally find these at your local paint store.
    
    This is an alternative method who don't have or want to use a full size
    spray outfit.  
    
    I have used these on many occasions with excellent results!
     
    Happy spraying,
    
    Chris
    

    I just read my previous note after posting it...
    
    Obviously, my hands don't type as fast as my braincells (both of them)
    supply the verbiage.
    
    Please excuse the typos and missing word here or there.  
    
    

    Yet another late thought:
    
    K&B does sell a thinner.  Follow the directions on the can for
    thinning.  It ain't cheap stuff.  
    
    The only other thing that I have found compatible for both spraying and
    cleanup is the less expensive thinner known as M.E.K. (Metyl Ethyl
    Ketone).  Use caution if you try to use anything other that K&B thinner
    or MEK for spraying.
    
    MEK can be found found at K-Mart, Wal-Mart, or your local discount
    store in the paint section with the usual assortment of thinners,
    acetone, paint removers, etc...
    

I've only sprayed HobbyPoxy clear, personally. I've had good luck with K&B
paints but haven't clearcoated since I switched (or should I say since my
supplier switched). Yes, HobbyPoxy clear yellows with time also.

    Dan, the only time I used the K&B two part clear was on my Aeromaster. 
    I used it to seal Solartex fabric covering in yellow and blue.  It was
    sprayed on using a commercial paint sprayer and put on very wet.  It
    cured in several hours, but I found it took a day or two before it was
    really hard.
    
    It wears like iron and has been the best wearing finish on any of my
    planes.  Did it yellow?  I can't tell because of the underlying colors,
    BUT I can say that one of the components, I don't remember if it is the
    catalyst or the pigment has turned a deep amber color in the can over
    two years.  My gut feeling is that it does indeed yellow, but how much 
    I can't say.
    
    K&B makes two clear pigments, gloss and matte finish, and you choose
    which one you want to mix with the catalyst.  The one-to-one mixture
    must be thinned with an equal amount of thinner to spray.  The gun is
    cleaned IMMEDIATELY with the thinner.  Don't wait because when this
    stuff begins to kick it is very hard to clean.  Like I say, its tough
    as nails.
    
    Maybe you could try an experiment with it over white to see if there is
    any noticeable color change when it is freshly painted.  If there is no
    noticeable yellowing right after application, then I think it will take
    a year or so for you to see a real change, and who knows, that's
    possibly well beyond the career lifetime of the model :-)
    
    Trivia question:  What's the half-life of a model plane or chopper? 
    Its obviously related to running out of airspeed and altitude at the
    same time, but I wonder if we took a survey, what the average life span
    of the population of model aircraft is?
    
    Other than the possibility of yellowing, I think the K&B products I
    have used are top quality, and I don't think you'll be dissappointed.
    
    Regards,
    Joe
                                                   

That's about the same as my HobbyPoxy experience. The hardener is the amber
component and it is also the component that changes depending on gloss or flat.
I think HobbyPoxy recommends 24 hour curing but you can recoat within minutes if
you aren't sanding between coats.

You can get a great shine by taking some rubbing compound to it after it's cured.

Jim

    I was not aware that Rustoleum paint was fuel proof, but never having
    tried it, I'll defer to others experiences. One thing that "was"
    mentioned a couple of times though is that Rustoleum did NOT make
    a clear.
    
    While rumaging around in the basement the other day, guess what I
    came across. A can of Rustoleum CLEAR. I know it was only purchased
    last fall too at the local hardware store. So, I guess they do make
    a clear, and if Rustoleum is fuel proof, this may be the answer to
    some painting problems.
    
    Steve

    
      Thanks for the tip Steve, I picked up a can of "Clear" Rustoleum
    yesterday at the Hardware store. I also picked up a can of clear 
    "Perfect Paint" ( Monokote matching ) at RC Buyers last week. Man,
    is that stuff expensive! It was $9.95 a can! The Rustoleum was only
    $3.50.
     
      I am going to do some tests on both, but won't be able to run the
    tests until next week. This weekend I am going to my sister's in N.J.
    I compared the back of the Rustoleum "Clear" with the back of a
    "colored" can. The instructions, drying time, excetera were identical,
    so hopefully it will provide the same protection as regular Rustoleum.    
    Just as important, I hope it looks good and is compatible with Century
    21!.
    
                    

    
     
         Finally got around to testing the Rustoleum "clear". Although it
      is compatible with Centry 21 base coats, it is NOT fuelproof ( in fact
      it was horrible, and krinkled up in a matter of several seconds
      after being covered with 15% fuel ).
    
                                    
    
       

    
    
       Well I have finally completed my spray can "clear" testing. The
     last test was with "Perfect Paint" clear over Century 21. It IS
     compatible, it IS fuelproof, but it looks like CRAP!
    
      I seems that the non-fuelproof clears really look nice ( until
      fuel is applied ), and the fuel proof stuff looks like Crap!
    
      Fuel Proof / lousy finish  - Century 21 and Perfect Paint
    
      Not fuel proof / Nice Finish - Rustoleum "clear" and Krylon "clear"
                                                         

>     -< Spray "Clears" results >-

I currently use ACME acrylic lacquer clear coat.
Can't say for sure that it doesn't yellow.
It certainly doesn't yellow as much as K&B two part
epoxy clear coat that I have used in the past.

Can't say that I love the way it does on.
It really smells up the shop and fills the air
with lacquer dust.

Can't say how fuel proof it is as the only
commissioned power plane I currently have it on
is a 4 stroke and doesn't have much exhaust residue.

But - it's on my Clipped Wing cub.

I picked ACME brand because that is what
my local Auto paint store carried.  They tell me
that they are going to discontinue lacquer paints
in the future and it is getting harder to match
colors.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    I remembered this discussion from a while back, and thought I would put
    in my most recent "clear coating experience". I was painting a new
    canopy for my heli and decided that I wanted to clear coat it. I had an
    old XCell canopy around which had been painted by a friend and I gave
    him a call to see what he had painted it with. The answer was acrylic
    laquer, clear coated with K&B epoxy. Now this canopy is 5 years old and
    hasn't yellowed yet so I decided to give it a try. The results are
    fine. My canopy is mostly white, and while after being clear coated it
    is now a "warmer" white, it is still very much white. This is the best
    clear coat I have tried for model finishing so far.
    
    I think the trick to avoid yellowing with K&B is to apply the clear
    VERY VERY thin.
    
    Wayne.
    
    P.S. Apparently the shelf life for K&B is almost indefinate since the
    paint that I used was purchased about 1978.
    

>    I think the trick to avoid yellowing with K&B is to apply the clear
>    VERY VERY thin.
    
Wayne, the problems I have had with K&B wasn't that it was yellow
from the start.  (well a little maybe)  It just yellows with age.  
I'd really like to hear what the canopy looks like in two years.  
Also I had major problems with peeling after a few months.

Keep us posted.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

>    I'd really like to hear what the canopy looks like in two years.
>    Also I had major problems with peeling after a few months.
    
    Time will tell, but as I mentioned I have another canopy that is 5 years
    old and it hasn't yellowed either.
    
    Wayne

    Hi all,
    
    Well, my latest project has been another Junkers CL-I, a WWI, low wing
    monoplane; about 82" wing span...
    
    I covered it with Super Coverite and I am painting it with auto Acrylic
    Laquer.  This time, however, I am using "Frisket paper" rather than 
    regular shelf paper for the masks.  I am happy with the way that the
    lines have come out, but it turns out that the Frisket paper is leaving
    a lot of sticky residue! :-(
    
    So, my question is, has anyone had this problem and what was their
    solution?
    
    I am planning to apply an epoxy clear coat, so maybe that will solve
    the problem.  But I would hate to end up with a bigger mess...
    
    Anyone have any experience with this problem?
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    Boy, some people never learn...
    
    In a search to my questions in the previous note I did a search of the
    earlier entries...  I found my reply from just over 2 years ago when 
    I painted my first Junkers..  
    
    Sadly, I had the same problem back then too, and I didn't document, nor
    do I remember doing anything..  I guess that makes me tend to just want
    to spray the clear over the sticky stuff and forget about it...
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    FWIW - It was suggested that I use lighter fluid to cut through the 
    residue...  This worked fairly well and did not soften the paint!
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    If anyone ever hears me planning on spray painting a model again, please 
    do me a favor and just SHOOT ME IN THE HEAD!
    
    I've been trying to get this Super Chipmunk off my building table for
    the last two weeks, but the Paint Gods have been putting me through a
    test of moral rectitude as I try to paint the friggin' cowl - a
    red-over-white affair to match the suggested Art Scholl trim scheme.
    The rest of the model was completed over 6 weeks ago and has been sitting 
    patiently, waiting for its nose to be completed...
    
    In true obsessive fashion, I prepped the cowl to within an inch of its
    life, filled all the pinholes with auto filler, primed it, sanded it
    back down, filled what  I had missed, primed and sanded again, hit it
    with a tack rag, then took it down to my heated basement shop to paint
    it. I carefully sprayed on a  tack coat of white paint, let that set
    for a few minutes, and then followed with a full coat. It looked good
    so far, no drips or runs or dust, so I left it to dry for a few hours
    before hitting it with a second coat.
    
    My older son, brain damaged as all 18 year old males are, turned on the
    shower in the bathroom over my workshop, then promptly got into a
    lengthy phone call with his Current Squeeze, while overlooking the fact
    that the shower head was pointing outside of the tub. 
    
    After hearing the shower running for about 10 minutes but noting that
    the entire family could be seen fully clothed, I checked the bathroom
    and it was slowly filling with water. A few well-aimed curses were
    issued in my son's direction, and then I commensed the mop-up operation. 
    Not long after, it dawned on me that the bathroom was above the workshop -
    ABOVE THE COWL! 
    
    I raced down to the shop to discover the worst had happened: the cowl
    was now coated with an amalgam of paint, sawdust, and other debris,
    embedded within a million impact craters caused by the dripping water.
    Great - a cowl that looked like a grundgy #%@^&*! golf ball.
    
    I'm convinced that no jury would have convicted me had I chosen to take 
    my son out of this world at that moment...
    
    Anyway...After scraping the crud off and letting the cowl cure for a
    couple of days, I sanded the whole thing back down to the primer again,
    and repaired the collateral  damage. I repainted the white base color
    again - this time without incident (said teenage son was banned from
    taking a shower for the duration) and let it cure for another two
    days.
    
    I then masked the bottom of the cowl off using low-tack 1/4" automobile
    quality masking tape for the separation line, lightly scuffed the area
    to be painted with 600 grit wet or dry, vacuumed and tack-ragged it,
    then sprayed on the red in two coats. I carefully removed the masking
    about 15 minutes later and allowed it to dry for two days.
    
    The cowl looked excellent at this point! I then wet sanded the whole
    cowl using 1200 grit, and prepared it for the clear coat. Which is where
    the next disaster struck: the damn "clear" paint had a #$@%&*!
    yellow/brown cast to it! &%*^#@! It looked %^#&@*! terrible!
    
    So here I sit, crushed, suicidal, and wondering if I'll ever get this
    %*^&#@! cowl done before the good weather arrives. I'll have to strip
    it back down AGAIN and repaint the base colors AGAIN (and God only
    knows what misfortunes await this time around!)
    
    I'm using the dreaded polyurethane Cheveron Perfect Paint, as I don't
    have a suitable spray gun for something this size, and the PP stuff is
    the only thing in a can that'll match the Ultracote True Red film
    (which it did quite nicely - for a while (sigh))...
    
    Here's the question (you knew there had to be one, eventually): 
    
    Is it possible to actually get the Perfect Paint "clear" to be CLEAR
    over white paint? Or should I forget the idea of a clear coat and just 
    leave the color coats exposed to the elements?
    
    While I'm at it: can the same polyurethane be used to seal decals - or
    is that asking way too much?
    
    /dave (GIMME FILM!/I HATE to PAINT!)

    What are you using for the "clear" and is it compatible with the
    Cheveron.
    
    I hate to say it, but unless your prepared to use automotive quality
    paint (including the clear coat), it (the clear) will turn yellow over
    time anyway. The last fuse I painted had Black Baron clear sprayed over
    it. Came out great. I couple of months later I needed to make a repair
    and repaint an area. After the repaint, the old "white" actually looked
    yellow next to the new white.
    
    Steve

    The clear was Cheveron Perfect Paint. I thought I'd be in good shape
    sticking with Cheveron for primer/color/clear (I should note that I
    decided this back in December before reading through this thread).
    
    I had decided to use CGM Ultracote instead of my usual Super MonoKote
    because there's a lot of overlayed film involved in this trim scheme
    and the Ultracote doesn't bubble as readily as Monokote. Then I needed
    matching  paint for those CGM colors - which led me to the PP stuff...
    
    If that's the best that the clear will do, I might just skip the clear
    entirely. The color coats state that they're fuel proof (I might have
    to test that on a sample) and I'm running an OS91FS, so there won't be
    a heck of a lot of fuel goo on the cowl (hopefully)...
    
    I don't know if there is an "automotive quality" clear that'd be
    compatible with the polyurethane Cheveron base coats (don't remember
    anyone pointing that out here). I'd be willing to drop some smallish $$
    on a pint (if they sell that stuff by the pint) to test on a sample if
    there was a decent chance of it being compatible. Any ideas on that?
    
    I'd hate to blindly strike out in that direction - could be expensive
    with no success in sight...
    
    Man what a pain! I'd be tempted to try to cover the cowl with film for
    all the trouble this has been. But there's a major undercut below the
    spinner ring that'd be a problem to stick the film to - even with
    Balsarite 
    
    There's always something...I've built entire airplanes in the time I've
    been dickin' with this cowl!
    
    /dave

    I think most automotive acrylics are fuel proof out of the can and not
    that expensive. One red and one white touch up can should be enough for
    the cowl.
    
    I have a can of red at home (that's probably too dark for the chipmonk
    scheme) but if you want to swing by, your welcome to it to do some
    testing.
    
    As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, I bought it for the
    fuse repair on the LA1. Part of the repair was on the bottom of the
    fuse right behind the tuned pipe exhaust. I never put any clear on it,
    and I "know" I've gotten fuel on the repair and never had a problem.
    
    Just remember that paint can be fuel proof with "burnt" fuel but not
    raw fuel. In your case, you'll need to test both way's as you'll be
    fueling through the cowl.
    
    Steve
    

    I've found on models with enamel finish that Future Floor wax will 
    protect the paint very well and keep the shine.
    
    Fuel proof ? don't know you could try a test.
    
    If you want to keep a deep luster shine, Future will do the trick. Apply
    a good 4 or 5 coats and buff until you see your face. Shoot it through
    an old Windex sprayer or that type of spray bottle.
    
    Then once in a while apply another coat and buff when you need it.
    
    We use it to protect water decals on the out side of the slotcars, almost 
    as strong as a clear coat, will never YELLOW.
    
    Fred
    

    Thanks for the suggestions. I think I'm going to make up a couple of
    test panels to try some of these ideas out. 
    
    The Future idea certainly offers a relatively painless way out of this
    mess, if it won't attack the paint and if it'll stand up to raw fuel.
    As we have a bottle of that around for the kitchen floor I can give
    that a try, while I look for some auto clear to test on the paint.
    
    The fact that the Future shouldn't attack decals is an advantage as
    well - I have a couple of Chipmunk logos that go on the cowl - and it
    doesn't seem likely that they'd withstand the solvents found in
    paint...
    
    /dave

    Bad Things come in threes...
    
    After sanding the cowl smooth to get the "clear" (hah!) goo off, I
    repainted the white (lower) section, with only moderate overspray on
    red (upper) section of the cowl. Then I taped, masked and sanded where
    the red paint was to go, then repainted the red.
    
    After two days of curing I put the cowl on the 'Munk, and discovered
    that now the red doesn't really match the film all that well. It's darker
    by enough to be obvious. 
    
    I'm almost certain that the first time I compared the cowl to the plane 
    (before the clear-coat disaster) the match was nearly "Perfect". If my
    memory is correct, then the darkening might have been the result of not
    having a white base under these last two red color coats - there was
    still a healthy amount of red under there that I didn't sand back down
    to primer...
    
    Oh well...If it was Government work it'd be OK - and it'll have to
    stay this way until next winter 'cuz I ain't gonna screw around with
    this any more this year! I gotta throw together another Gremlin and my
    son needs the table to start his HOB 300L...
    
    Tune in next year. If the Chipmunk makes it through the flying season,
    I'm sure this saga will continue...
    
    /dave (chastened but not stirred ;^)

    It doesn't matter how well the cowl matches the covering.
    
    The IMPORTANT question is......DO I GET TO FLY IT???????? 8^)
    
    S.

    Soitenly!  You're still Test Pilot Numero Uno! 8^)
    
    As soon as I get this engine run-up on the test stand and tune it
    up/adjust the valves it'll be ready and waiting for good weather and a
    free weekend day.
    
    How's the field, anyway? Haven't been there since the snow started
    flying...
    
    /dave

    But I figure it's in pretty good shape. Right end is probably a little
    soggy, and it's probably a little on the rough side till it get's
    rolled, but perfectly flyable.
    
    Speaking of which, WHY DIDN'T I TAKE TODAY OFF........8^)
    
    Steve

    I'm rapidly developing a (healthy) distrust of *anything* that claims
    (or has been claimed) to be "clear"...
    
    I made up some test panels using the Cheveron white and red paint,
    applied exactly as one would do a cowl (sand, prime, sand, paint 1st
    white color coat, sand for a grip, apply second white color coat, mask, 
    sand, and do the red coats). All panels had three days of drying in a
    warm (furnace) room.
    
    I masked the first panel in half, then applied Future acrylic floor 
    "stuff" on one half, allowing the first coat to dry overnight, then
    applied a second coat and allowed that to dry. 
    
    I then dribbbled some 10% fuel on each half of this panel. Verdict? 
    Forget the Future. Not only does it yellow with only a couple of coats
    (easily detected once the masking was removed) it is so not-fuel-proof 
    as to be totally useless. The Future instantly turns into a gooey mess
    with even a hint of raw fuel on it.
    
    The other - untreated - side of the panel fared much, much better. In
    fact, even after leaving the fuel on the panel for a few minutes,
    wiping it clean with a white rag showed no paint coming off and no
    apparent disturbance to the paint film. 
    
    So far so good - if it wasn't for the decals...Which, of course, a
    Super Chipmunk *must* be covered with ;^) and there's one on each side
    of the cowl, more or less exposed to potential fuel spillage. Even if
    the paint would stand up to fuel attack, the bare decals wouldn't.
    
    I masked the next panel in half, and applied a piece of decal
    to each side, and commensed experimenting with waxes. The first stuff I
    tried - a liquid autobody wax - attacked the  paint immediately - with
    the rag I was using turning pink with the first  contact with the paint
    (yikes!) 
    
    The second stuff - Nufinish - is a cream/paste wax. This stuff wasn't
    anywhere near as nasty as the liquid wax, so while the rag came up with
    a tinge of pink, the finish still looked very nice. Unfortunately, it
    did very little to protect the decal...
    
    Sooo...It looks like I'll just try to get along without doing anything
    special to protect the paint or the decals this season. Next season
    I'll try to hook up with someone (with a spray gun) finishing a cowl 
    and work some kind of deal where I'll pay for the PPG 2-part paint if 
    they'll supply the sprayer.
    
    /dave (on to other projects!)

    Dave, sorry the Future didn't turn out to be fuel proof, we use it on 
    slot cars.
    
    Sounds to me like you used a lot. Did you buff each coat back to almost
    nothing ? After about 5 coats you should be able see your face and a very 
    hard, clear coating will be left. The coating is so hard it protects
    the water decals when hitting the wall and other cars. Normal decals
    that we use are the sticky back decals that are very strong. The water
    decals have a lot more veriaty so some times it's worth the extra effort
    of coating the bodies.
    
    I would have applied over both colors and you would not see the mask lines.
    
    Still if it's not fuel proof not worth much for protection.
    
    Good to know.
    
    Thanks
    Fred
                         

    Ha, Dave Just reread your note.
    
    I didn't understand that the masking was to see if it yellowed.
    
    I see now
    
    Fred    

    Yup, the best way to "see" the yellowing is to have a nice sharp edge
    on a single test panel. Makes it stand out like a sore thumb.
    
    I did buff the first coat before applying the second. I put the Future
    on using a soft white cloth - just in case it lifted the paint in the
    process - and applying as thin a coat as I could. It didn't harm the
    paint, but it didn't stand up to the fuel at all: instantly turned to
    goop that I could barely squoosh along with the cloth. 
    
    I sure made a mess out of the test panel (although given enough fuel I
    could probably clean that goop off it). You wouldn't believe how
    close I came to just putting the Future on without testing it first!
    (Whew!)
    
    I took the 'Munk to the CMRCM monthly meeting, where it definitely was
    the center of attention. (Of course, there was only one other plane in
    the "Show and Tell" and at that it was only 2/3rds of a roughed-out J-3
    cub. Not much competition there). 
    
    I think it was well-received, the covering scheme is a real eye-catcher, 
    and if I do say so myself I did a decent job with the film. Quite a few
    people refused to believe it wasn't glassed and painted and had to hunt
    around for a seam to believe it was film.
    
    (And just to tick me off, most people didn't notice that the cowl doesn't 
    really match the film!)
    
    If they only knew... ;^)
    
    /dave

    Oh Sh*t......there was a meeting last night. Guess you noticed I wasn't
    there huh????? Damn, I wanted to see the Munk too.
    
    I plum forgot all about it. Anything interesting go on???(ya right)
    
    Steve

    Dave, glad you didn't go right to the future.
    
    Would have looked good until that first flight ;')
    
    Sorry
    Fred

    re: "Oh Sh*t"
    
    I wondered WTF you were doing that you'd miss a meeting!
    
    You'll have another chance - maybe before we get the 'Munk launched.
    The annual static competition is next month, so if we don't fly the
    beast before then I'll be bringing it see if I can't knock Harv off his
    perch in Sport (at least he won't have his Ultimate this time around ;^)
    
    Otherwise...Not a whole heck of a lot going on. Harv finished the
    evening with a talk on props, brought along a collection of props that
    he hand-carved about two eons ago. 
    
    Harv's supposed to email me the current field conditions - he's going
    over today. Thought I might take an afternoon off one of these days and
    see if I can't break a Gremlin or my FunOne, but if the field is really
    soft I wouldn't want to leave size 14 footprints all over it ;^)
    
    /dave

    Dave,
    
    The Top Flight Lustercoat clear seems to be VERY clear. I did a heli
    canopy with it recently and I used to coats of Lustercoat clear over
    white. The white still looks white.
    
    Wayne