T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
---|
837.50 | Any Coach travellers out there? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | The Prince of Destruction | Wed Jan 03 1990 10:13 | 12 |
| Does anybody out there have any experience of Page & Moy's "quick
& cheap" coach trips to European GPs? We're thinking about taking
the one to San Marino and the one to Hockenheim both of which involve
overnight coach dashes. Any experiences would be useful.
Also, I can highly recommend the autobiography of Gilles Villeneuve
which found its way into my Xmas stocking. Its a warts n'all story
but doesn't step over the line into tabloid territory. Its obvious
that the author (Peter Donaldson I think - my memory is still in
alcohol mode!) both knew and liked Gilles. Rating 5 stars.
Paul
|
837.51 | A view of the future? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | The Prince of Destruction | Wed Jan 03 1990 10:37 | 83 |
| From this weeks Autocar & Motor (reprinted without permission)
Predictions for the '90s
1990
March
Mansell & Senna collide at the first corner in Phoenix
Piquet wins in the John Barnard Benetton
1991
October
Barnard leaves Benetton for Arrows
1992
March
Caffi wins Brazilian GP in Barnard Arrows, Senna & Berger collide
on first corner
June
JMB retires
December
Prost retires from driving to replace JMB
1993
January
Barnard leaves Arrows to join Zakspeed
November
Schneider becomes World Champion for Zakspeed
1994
March
Senna threatens to retire after first corner collision with Schneider
in Brazil
1995
January
Barnard leaves Zakspeed for Eurobrun-Hyundai
March
Foitek wins Brazilian GP for Eurobrun. senna fined for running over
FISA president in pit-lane
1996
March
McNish wins Brazilian GP in first race for Hyundai - the first win
for a non-John Barnard designed car for three years. (June-John
Barnard designed Proton wins Le Mans 300km)
1997
March
FISA debates growing number of accidents while John Barnard reveals
new design steered by remote control from the pit lane. Senna comes
out of retirement.
November
Prost retire as President of FISA to be replaced by Murray Walker
1998
March
Senna makes a triumphant return to the pit lane by winning the
Brazilian GP in the remote control Barnard
1999
March
McNish treads on Senna's remote control pad in Brazil pits. FISA
president Murray Walker fines both $500k and issues one year ban.
There's a load of other tongue in cheek stuff in the article, I've
just extracted the F1 bits.
Paul
|
837.52 | Page and Moy (or similar) | CURRNT::SAXBY | Isn't it 5.30 yet? | Wed Jan 03 1990 11:31 | 12 |
|
I've not been on a Page & Moy trip to a GP, but a couple of us went
with them (I think) to the Spa 1000km (Ah, those were the days!)
a few years ago and the whole trip was highly enjoyable. The coaches
were comfortable and clean (more than can be said for the Jaguar
Travel Club!) and the hotel they used was good (but I guess you're
not staying in a hotel), so good in fact that when I drove we stayed
there again.
Mark
|
837.53 | 1990 Starts Here | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Jan 04 1990 09:40 | 68 |
| New Year Bits from Autosport -
Pre Xmas testing at Ricard saw Hunt the Shunt, Laffite, Tambay and
Ragnotti testing Williams's for TV. Other teams there - Onyx giving
Eddie Irvine a go, Ligier - with Larini totalling a chassis, Arrows,
Zakspeed, Benetton, Dallara and Lola.
Johnny Herbert in discussion with Osella but Grouillard more likely
to get the seat. Herbert is also talking to Coloni and Eurobrun.
Emerson Fittipaldi has scotched the rumours about his bet with Big
Bernie also saying that if he ever did get back in an F1 it would
be of equal quality to his CART Penske (ie better than the rumoured
Minardi!)
Arrows have been sold 100% to Footwork for around #6m. Jackie Oliver
and Alan Rees will stay with the team as employees (rich ones I
presume!)
The Spanish GP in 1992 will be in Barcelona to coincide with the
Olympics
Onyx have lapsed their option on Porsche engines. Brabham and Ligier
rumoured to be bidding.
On the fashion front.....
Leyton House have bought a controlling interest in Hugo Boss - now
we all know who they sponsor don't we.....
Also this week:
An update on who goes where for '90 -
1/2 Ferrari - Prost/Mansell
3/4 Tyrrell - Alesi/Nakajima
5/6 Williams - Patrese/Boutsen
7/8 Brabham - Brundle/Modena
9/10 Arrows - Alboreto/Caffi
11/12 Lotus - Warwick/Donnelly
15/16 L/House - Gugelmin/Capelli
17/18 Osella - ?/?
19/20 Benetton - Nannini/Piquet
21/22 Dallara - De Cesaris/?
23/24 Minardi - Martini/Barilla
25/26 Ligier - Alliot/Larini
27/28 McLaren - Senna/Berger
29/30 Lola - Bernard/Suzuki
31/32 Coloni - ?/?
33/34 Eurobrun - Moreno/?
35/36 Zakspeed - Schneider/?
37/38 Onyx - Johansson/Lehto
39/40 Rial - ?/?
41/42 AGS - Tarquini/Dalmas
Looking for seats - Pirro, Grouillard, Raphanel, Gachot, Bertaggia,
Foitek, Sala, Apicella and Herbert
Gone away since last year - Danner, Cheever, Palmer, Ghinzani and
Arnoux
There's also a good 1990 Almanac (tongue in cheek) and an interview
with 1966 World Champion Pete Aron. One point for the first person
to say who he is and how he was World Champion!
Paul
|
837.54 | Barcelona 1992 | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Thu Jan 04 1990 12:43 | 2 |
| Not Montjuich Park, I trust? Last time(?) it was run there (1975), Stommelen
left the road and killed 3 people - very nasty.
|
837.55 | Maverick | ROLL::ZETTERLUND | | Thu Jan 04 1990 15:38 | 3 |
| Pete Aaron (sp?) became World Champion by winning the final race at Monza of the
fictional 1966 season in the John Frankenheimer movie, "Grand Prix". Aaron
was played by TV's Maverick, James Garner.
|
837.56 | Have a Cigar (Marlboro of course!) | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Jan 04 1990 15:54 | 7 |
| Congratulations - on the nose! Autosport has done a spoof "Race
of my Life" for Aron about the 1966 Monaco GP where he flew off
into the harbour. According to the profile, he retired in '68 apart
from an outing in a Porsche 917 at Sebring and is now a TV commentator
for ESPN!
Paul
|
837.57 | Nichols to Ferrari | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Thu Jan 04 1990 22:42 | 3 |
| I hear that Steve Nichols is following Prost to Ferrari. With all of the very
good work that he's done over the years refining Barnard's MP4 design, I guess he
should be the ideal candidate to do the same job in Italy...
|
837.58 | Ollie at Osella | LEROUF::MERRICK | A balance of probabilities | Wed Jan 10 1990 12:45 | 4 |
| Olivier Grouillard has signed for Osella. The team aalso announced that
they would be using Pireli tyres.
ken
|
837.59 | Just heard this on the radio... | CURRNT::JENKINS_R | Undone, Underdone or Overdone? | Wed Jan 10 1990 14:06 | 13 |
|
*****AYRTON SENNA HAS BEEN BANNED FROM F1*******
Jean-Marie Balestre announced at lunchtime today that Ayrton Senna
has been banned for the whole of the coming seasons F1. The report on
the radio said that when Balestre and Senna met last (in Paris?)
Senna has refused to withdraw the allegation that last years
championship was manipulated.
Balestre went on to say that Senna will remain banned until he withdraws
this allegation.
|
837.60 | re .-1: you must be joking | XANADU::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Wed Jan 10 1990 14:18 | 8 |
| Whattt????? I understand you can ban someone for dangerous driving or
things like that, but banning because of disrespect????
Well, I guess half the noters in this topic are banned from F1, for
showing disrespect for JMB...
JP
|
837.61 | Ha Ha Ha HA Ha, god moves in mysterious ways. | SHAPES::STREATFIELDC | WIZARD STUFF | Wed Jan 10 1990 14:44 | 5 |
| Well I think its marvelous, Its the best thing that the little jumped
up ex-dodgem car driver has done!
Carl.
|
837.62 | | LISVAX::BRITO | PortugUese, please! | Wed Jan 10 1990 14:48 | 5 |
| He (JMB) can't be that stupid!... Everybody can express their views.
What he is doing sounds like a vendetta to me...
The problem is JMB thinks he is an all mighty god in the F1.
I really hope there something wrong with that piece of info...
|
837.63 | You cannot be serious? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Wed Jan 10 1990 15:09 | 17 |
| Re .61
Unless your comment was tongue in cheek, try growing up. How can
it be logical to ban the world's best driver even if you don't like
his style you can't ban someone for their views on JMB
Re the news
This could be the straw that breaks JMBs back. If its true its the
most idiotic decision yet. Last weeks Autosport carried quite a
bit on the whole saga including a Q&A with JMB himself. To be honest
his attitude stunk and he came across as an arrogant **** - but
what else is new?
Maybe if this is true it could provoke some sort of boycott?
Paul
|
837.64 | Oh yes he is! Oh no he isn't! | LEROUF::MERRICK | A balance of probabilities | Wed Jan 10 1990 15:14 | 7 |
| French radio has also carried the story that Senna's F1 license is
being witheld. Among reasons listed was Senna's accusation that JMB
showed favouritism to Prost in the World Championship. I think we can
expect appeals, threats, fines etc. It is the pantomime season after
all.
Ken
|
837.65 | This has to be the end! | CURRNT::SAXBY | Isn't it 5.30 yet? | Wed Jan 10 1990 15:28 | 8 |
|
The second most stupid decision the berk's ever made!
String him up from the nearest lamp-post. I thought tin-pot
dictators were going out of fashion!
Mark
|
837.66 | No offence meant . | SHAPES::STREATFIELDC | WIZARD STUFF | Wed Jan 10 1990 16:04 | 12 |
| RE-63
I Think you may have got the wrongg end of the stick,
a) yes, there is no denying he is a good/one of the best drivers,
although a touch too aggressive for my liking.
b) The main reason behind the statement, was that Senna had, up until
now, got away with a darn sight more than anyone else seemed to.
c) I allways seem to get that symbol wrong -:), or is it :-) ??
Carl.
|
837.67 | | SALMON::SHAUGHNESSY | Ayrton Senna HAS been stopped! | Wed Jan 10 1990 16:28 | 36 |
| >I thought tin-pot dictators were going out of fashion!
Only the left wing ones. The right wing ones are doing rather well
lately. For instance, the Salvadorans, with U.S. assistance, just
surpassed the 75,000 civilians killed benchmark, and they're flying
higher than ever in American opinion polls.
>... best driver in F1...
Now Paul, not to deride this widely-held opinion, but only to play
Doubting Thomas:
* Senna has been driving perhaps the most dominant car in F1 history
the last few years while given the team's more better engines
and chassis to outdo a perhaps over-the-hill teammate who publicly
admits to not trying that hard cuz he felt he was being screwed
by the team.
* Despite all this during their two year as, ahem, "teammates,"
Senna and Prost each came up with one Championship.
* And this even though Senna by any objective analysis certainly
violated every known form of gentlemanly behavior code extant
in F1 running people off the road, blind passing, and otherwise
endangering, intimidating, and bullying lesser driver/car combos
for what many see as ill-gotten advantage.
* And all of this he STILL could've established himself as the greatest
except for his major flaw: lack of driver smarts. The guy is
the fastest I've ever seen but, as they say, "you've got to finish
to finish first."
And being the best means finishing first, cuz winning races, not
qualifying or fastest laps, is what it takes in F1.
MrT
|
837.68 | | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Wed Jan 10 1990 17:55 | 15 |
| I have been keeping up with the Le Mans Saga, mainly becuase I prefere
sportscar to f1. However someone pointed out to me the ban Senna
entry in this note. I can't say that I'm stunned . I think .62 hits
the nail on the head ,vendetta.
I would appear that is if JMB doesn't like it or he can't beat it
then he BAN's it. I can't see the teams putting up with any more of this
kind of riduculous behaviour.
I think the best thing for world motorsport of all classes would
be to have organising bodies for each individual class , ie a sportscar
organisation, F1 organisation etc. If the body has the best intrest
of the sport they organise
\
|
837.69 | Not so hot press - I've been scooped!!! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Thu Jan 11 1990 07:43 | 43 |
| From: VOGON::DAWSON "COLIN, IED/READING REO-F7/B10, DTN 830.3670" 11-JAN-1990 07:39:55.47
To: @D:F1
CC: DAWSON
Subj: Hot press news
Hi,
I'm breaking my vow of silence to tell you of some news I heard on
the radio last night. You probably know it already but it was news to me!!
Ayrton Senna has been refused a licence to drive in this year's
World Championship, ostensibly because of remarks he continues to make over
FISA's handling of the Suzuka affair and his subsequent banning. He seems
to believe he had a God-given right to have won that race and the Championship
and has said so publicly. What a bloody farce.... It takes about � the
interest out of the struggle now...
Other news this week includes the fact that ex-Onyx men Mike Earle,
Joe Chamberlain and Romeo Casola appear to have taken management control of
Brabham although the imprisoned Joachim Luethi and Kingside Development
remain owners of the team. Peter Windsor still has an outstanding injunction
against Luethi following last years debacle. It appears fairly certain that
last years drivers Martin Brundle and Stefano Modena will remain on the team,
quelling recent rumours that Emanuele Pirro might oust one of them.
Johnny Herbert is still uncertain what his '90 plans are although both
Coloni and EuroBrun are interested in acquiring his services. It is even still
possible that Benetton will keep its options open.
Arrows will henceforth be known as Footwork Arrows Ford Team as the
japanese Ohashi company have finaly acquired the team.Jackie Oliver and Alan
Rees continue their involvement but John Wickham (who brought Honda to F1 with
the Spirit early in the 80s) joins as Project Manager. USF&G will continue to
sponsor with reduced input and the cars will appear in Footwork's livery.
Coloni will run a C3 powered by the heavy old flat 12 Subaru engine
next year until a new V12 comes on stream. EuroBrun will run the Neotech V12
hopefully from the start of the season and the engine will also find its way
into the back of one of Brun's Porsche 962Cs.
That's all.
Colin
|
837.70 | Snippetts & Opinions | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Jan 11 1990 12:24 | 43 |
| Autosport Bits
Rial are unlikely to be back in 1990 meaning that Ligier will not
have to prequalify.
Zakspeed, Coloni and Osella likely to be only single car entries,
but Eurobrun up to two.
Ferrari will have a brand new V12 for '90 with the first run due
for 15/01 at Ricard.
McLaren to underwrite Allan McNish's career for three years and
to give David Coulthard a test - Ecurie Ecosse-McLaren?
Re a couple back
Steve,
Remember when Senna first came on the scene? The Toleman was a pig
but he still nearly won, and his various Loti (plural of Lotus?)
were a little ropey. With the exception of Suzuka Senna blew Prost
away every time and I don't believe Prost's - My engine was fixed
moans. I did once, but the more I thought about it the more it didn't
gel.
Reading the Gilles Villeneuve biog over Xmas and the similarity
of comments about dangerous driving was startling. The difference
is of course was that Gilles was a playboy type in it for fun (and
a bit of money!) whereas Ayrton is deadly serious. That makes Gilles
everybody's favourite and Ayrton the enemy.
If he isn't racing next year the whole championship will be devalued.
Much as I love Ferrari I cannot enthuse over Prost and Mansell,
while stirring my patriotism, irritates me. I Senna lightened up
a bit he'd be my number one by a mile, as it is I'll watch Lotus
despite the yellow paint and pray for a revival ( the engine will
sound wonderful) and cheer on the friendliest team in F1 - Leyton
House.
Paul
ps - anybody else reckon JMB looks (and acts) like De Gaulle? :-)
|
837.71 | from the VOGON News Service (VTX)... | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Thu Jan 11 1990 14:31 | 19 |
| :::MOTOR SPORT
The dispute between Jean-Marie Balestre and Ayrton Senna again makes the
news. Balestre and FISA have demanded that Senna withdraw his allegations,
made in Australia, that Balestre manipulated the championship to give Prost
the title. Senna has until February 15th to apply for his F1 license, however
Balestre has said his application will be ignored unless the allegation is
withdrawn.
Overshadowed by the Senna affair was another FISA decision concerning Le
Mans. The ACO (organisiers of the event) have been told to include two
chicanes in the Mulsanne straight if they wish to be inluded in the World
Championship calendar. The race is provisionally scheduled for 16-17 June.
Porsche engineer Klaus Reicheirt yesterday confirmed that the company would
be returning to F1 with a 12 cylinder engine in the 1991 season. There has
been no decision as to which team will get the engines.
...Art
|
837.72 | How can JMB be ousted? | MINDER::SMITHDB | | Fri Jan 12 1990 12:22 | 21 |
|
Re:. the last few
It appears that not only do the ACO have to insert two chicanes into
the Mulsanne straight to be allowed to include Le Mans in the world
championship, they also have to 'apologise to FISA for defamatory
comments' made earlier this year. Sounds familiar!
I personally don't like the attitude that Senna displays when he races,
but it is totally wrong to ban him because of his opinions and comments
on them. If they are are untrue, and JMB feels that strongly, then the
only fair action would be to sue him for slander/libel (can never
remember which!) and perhaps the truth would be revealed.
I've never followed the politics in racing much, so I don't know what
the relationships are between FISA and country organisations like the
RAC MSA. Constituitonally, how can JMB be removed?
I have already decided not to follow F1 next year, its a farce.
David
|
837.73 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Fri Jan 12 1990 13:03 | 38 |
| Perhaps the most telling remark on this latest hoo-ha is
attributed to a member of the McLaren team -
"It's a dispute between someone who believes in god, and
someone who believes he is god"
Actually, as I'm so often keen to point out, it was the
committee that is taking this action not Balestre personally.
Apparently when Senna was called to the committe in December
he demonstrated an impatient, dismissive attitude towards
them. This wound them up no end since as you know all beurocrats
like to bowed too.
Balestre, who no doubt has a lot of sway in FISA, simply revels
in his image as king of all motor racing and enjoys winding up
the likes of Mansell and Senna, who are abjectly hopeless
politicians. He likes to be seen as the man, and always plays
down the beurocracy aspect.
Judging by some replies in this conference, he is superbly
successful too with many motor racing followers.
But what do the F1 community think?. I haven't noticed them
queing up to support Mansell or Senna, nor even to denigrate
Balestre. They remember when there were real issues as when 10
years ago FISA/Balestre wanted to change the rules to favour
Renault. Then there were real battles not just the petty
squabling of overvamped driver egos.
I'd agree that there's still scope to get the rules enforced
more consistently. The incidents that have caused such a fuss
this last year are akin to what happens when somebody who
habitually speeds gets caught. They know they were legally in
the wrong but still scream blue murder of victimisation or
whatever.
-John (Who'll be watching avidly next year, with or without Senna)
|
837.74 | when I was a lad....... | SHAPES::STREATFIELDC | WIZARD STUFF | Fri Jan 12 1990 13:48 | 7 |
| John,
Remember the Renault fiasco well, what a palava that was!, still
perhaps there was an omen from that, as a couple of years later,
Renault pulled out!
Carl.
|
837.75 | | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | Ayrton Senna has been BANNED! | Fri Jan 12 1990 16:09 | 21 |
| re .73
Good perspective. What's happened here is that JMB got pushed too
hard too much too far by McHonda/Senna & Co., and has struck back
with a vengeance. It needn't be rational to be understandable.
However it's cut, the bottom line is that I-Hear-A-Taunt's grievance
is patently absurd. He got away with murder, figuratively, at Jerez,
and is now whining like a baby over his similarly obvious infractions
at Suzuka, in a fit of egomaniacal pique that he can't get JMB back
down on his knees where like before.
The trouble is FISA keeps taking him to task for the wrong things.
In the manner that they cited him for improper re-entry instead
of push-starting; this time they should sue for slander and let
him prove his ridiculous but very serious allegations before a court
of law.
Senna's been hanging around with Ron Dennis too long and it show...
MrT
|
837.76 | | LISVAX::BRITO | | Mon Jan 15 1990 18:11 | 12 |
| .75
Do you really mean what you wrote?
Because if you do, let me remind you that whatever is said to make
Senna look like a lunatic you won't be doing anything more than pure
fantasy. History will show you that.
He is the best pilot at the moment, he driving for the best team
and there no way, but the one recently used to stop this man. And
that's at at desk. Not on the track....
|
837.77 | | ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSY | Ayrton Senna HAS been stopped! | Tue Jan 16 1990 17:36 | 29 |
| >Do you really mean what you wrote?
Yes.
>Let me remind you that whatever is said to make Senna look like
>a lunatic you won't be doing anything more than pure fantasy.
>History will show you that.
Well, so far history shows me that Senna has benefited from driving
number 1 for an unbelievably dominant team (that $100 million per
year has some effect, doesn't it?) and he ends up tied 1-1 with
an older Prost in a #2 car. History also tells me that Senna has
a history of being hard on equipment and crashing (the price one
pays for being so pushy on passes). That Senna fans cry about all
Senna's DNFs this year only underlines this fact.
Until the Honda dominance is broken, or until FIA implements a NASCAR
style scoring system, I can only see that Senna is possibly the
best driver right now, and with only one Championship certainly
not even in consideration for the greatest of all time. After all,
he DOES get marked down for bad driving decisions like everybody
else, doesn't he?
In any case, certainly his complaint about his treatment at Suzuka
amounts to the "pure fantasy" you speak of.
MrT
|
837.78 | Best? At trainings, maybe... | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Wed Jan 17 1990 10:51 | 20 |
| > Because if you do, let me remind you that whatever is said to make
> Senna look like a lunatic you won't be doing anything more than pure
> fantasy. History will show you that.
He may not be a lunatic, but he sometimes sure drives like one.
> He is the best pilot at the moment,
Good pilots usually keep their cars "ON" the track and avoid
unnecessary collisions. He's the best training driver, maybe.
>he driving for the best team and there no way, but the one recently
>used to stop this man. And that's at at desk. Not on the track....
He could be found off the track more often than on it, last season. He
doesn't need anybody else to stop him, he does it for himself.
Rectifyingly yours,
Chris
|
837.79 | Ayrhead versus Monsewer Ballast, and other ravings | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Wed Jan 17 1990 13:08 | 30 |
| Fellow fans,
If it's true that Senna suggested that F1 was in some way rigged, then
what else COULD JMB do but hit back VERY hard? Stop and examine the
potential damage that could be done to the sport by Senna's
accusations. Incredibly, JMB is doing his job in defending the sport
against Senna's ravings.
RE: Senna's "greatness." Putting aside circus atmosphere, politics,
sponsorship megabucks, nationalism, ad nauseum -- the object of racing
is to win. Senna IS a great qualifier, but as some of you have
noticed, no points are awarded for pole positions. I assume that
history will rate Senna in terms of his victories -- not his poles. If
that's the case, then how does he stack up against Clark, Hill,
Brabham, Stewart, Petersen, etc, etc?
Final food for thought: If Senna and Martini had swapped seats,
Minardi would NOT have won the championship. For most of the past
several years (and maybe more to come) the World Champion is the better
of the two McLaren drivers. The most important people in F1 are John
Barnard and all the nameless Honda engineers -- not drivers. Second
most important are the hated "financial fixers" -- Dennis, JMB, and
others these fingers refuse to type. Drivers might rank third in
importance. If I had the choice of Mansell and Prost, Mansell and
Senna, OR Mansell and Benny Hill in cars designed by Barnard, I'd go
for the latter.
Hopelessly logical,
Don
|
837.80 | | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Wed Jan 17 1990 13:16 | 16 |
| re.-1:
Hear it! Well said, this man.
In case it should have been lost in btw. the lines: I read in a German
newspaper that Prost did beat Jackie Stewarts record of won races,
sometime this year.
Any bell ringing?
Commentingly yours,
Chris
P.S.: Let me reiterate that both Prost and Senna are equally non -
existent, as far as my personal sympathies go.
|
837.81 | | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | I late brake for off-ramps | Wed Jan 17 1990 16:45 | 40 |
| >and there is no way, but the one recently used to stop this man.
>And that's at a desk. Not at the track....
Nobody thought Senna was a lunatic until he started running people
of the road and making fantastic allegations. I don't know, or
even care, whether he's a nut-case or not. But I'll certainly not
buy into his (and apparently your) hallucination that he was robbed
of a victory at Suzuka. The facts:
1. He was driving the pit lane prior to the pass, and had been using
it for some time. If they were out to get Senna they could've
used that technicality beforehand.
2. He wasn't robbed of anything. He was in the process of losing
the race and was spared that ignominy by trying a pass that wasn't
there.
3. He was push-started, a clear violation rating disqualification,
but for some wierd reason wasn't cited for this. (Invoking Ricardo
Patrese's push-start of several years back at Monaco begs the
point: there wasn't any skirt to push Patrese off onto, and he
happened to be sitting on a downhill segment of the track.) The
stewards kept pushing Senna until his car finally started.
4. If anything Senna was the beneficiary of favoritism, up until he got
too shrill with JMB. He got away with a cardinal sin at Jerez, and
had been the subject of complaints about extraordinarily dangerous
and mean-spirited manuevers taken to his advantage - without so much
as a peep from JMB & Co. Has everybody forgotten his unbelievable
chops on Prost in '88?
It remains that drivng for 2 years with only one competitor he could've
done better by driving smarter.
At any rate, his lunacy and his greatness are separate issues. Me, I
was a Prost fan until he let himself be pushed around by Senna. I want
a driver who's quick, smart, principled, and aggresive and I've found
one: Mansell.
MrT
|
837.82 | some F1 stats | OASS::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Wed Jan 17 1990 18:54 | 166 |
| Here's the list of F1 winners, how many races they have won, total
points accumulated over the years (including dropped points) and the
number of WC they have won noted by astericks. The point totals
shouldn't be used for comparisons since the schedule for awarding
points has changed over the years.
I've also included who won how many races in each year for 1980-1989.
Dave
------------------
Career Win Totals:
Alain Prost 39 569� ***
Jackie Stewart 27 360 **
Jimmy Clark 25 274 **
Niki Lauda 25 420� ***
Juan Manuel Fangio 24 279� *****
Nelson Piquet 20 410 ***
Ayrton Senna 20 313 *
Stirling Moss 16
Nigel Mansell 15 250
Jack Brabham 14 261 ***
Emerson Fittipaldi 14 281 **
Graham Hill 14 289 **
Alberto Ascari 13 **
Mario Andretti 12 *
Alan Jones 12 206 *
Carlos Reutemann 12 310
James Hunt 10 *
Ronnie Peterson 10 206
Jody Scheckter 10 255 *
Denis Hulme 8 248 *
Jacky Ickx 8
Ren� Arnoux 7
Tony Brooks 6
Jacques Laffite 6 228
Jochen Rindt 6 *
John Surtees 6 *
Gilles Villeneuve 6
Michele Alboreto 5
Nino Farina 5 *
Clay Regazzoni 5 212
Keke Rosberg 5 *
John Watson 5
Gerhard Berger 5
Dan Gurney 4
Bruce McLaren 4
Peter Collins 3
Mike Hawthorn 3 *
Phil Hill 3 *
Didier Pironi 3
Elio De Angelis 2
Thierry Boutsen 2
Patrick Depailler 2
Froilan Gonzalez 2
Jean-Pierre Jabouille 2
Riccardo Patrese 2
Peter Revson 2
Pedro Rodriguez 2
Jo Siffert 2
Patrick Tambay 2
Maurice Trintignant 2
Wolfgang Von Trips 2
Giancarlo Baghetti 1
Lorenzo Bandini 1
Jean-Pierre Beltoise 1
Joakim Bonnier 1
Vittorio Brambilla 1
Francois Cevert 1
Luigi Fagioli 1
Peter Gethin 1
Richie Ginther 1
Innes Ireland 1
Jochen Mass 1
Luigi Musso 1
Alessandro Nannini 1
Gunnar Nilsson 1
Carlos Pace 1
Lodovico Scarfiotti 1
Piero Taruffi 1
Race Winners:
1980:
Jones 6
Piquet 3
Arnoux 2
Pironi 1
Reutemann 1
Laffite 1
Jabouille 1
1981:
Piquet 3
Prost 3
Jones 2
Reutemann 2
Villeneuve 2
Laffite 2
Watson 1
1982:
Prost 2
Lauda 2
Pironi 2
Watson 2
Arnoux 2
Rosberg 1
Patrese 1
Piquet 1
Tambay 1
de Angelis 1
Alboreto 1
1983:
Prost 4
Piquet 3
Arnoux 3
Watson 1
Tambay 1
Rosberg 1
Alboreto 1
Patrese 1
1984:
Prost 7
Lauda 5
Piquet 2
Alboreto 1
Rosberg 1
1985:
Prost 5
Senna 2
Rosberg 2
Alboreto 2
Mansell 2
de Angelis 1
Piquet 1
Lauda 1
1986:
Mansell 5
Prost 4
Piquet 4
Senna 2
Berger 1
1987:
Mansell 6
Piquet 3
Prost 3
Senna 2
Berger 2
1988:
Senna 8
Prost 7
Berger 1
1989:
Senna 6
Prost 4
Mansell 2
Boutsen 2
Berger 1
Nannini 1
|
837.83 | | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Thu Jan 18 1990 08:42 | 6 |
| how many seasons has Senna raced in F1?
is it 5 or 6 ?
...Art.
|
837.84 | � races.... :-) | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Thu Jan 18 1990 09:46 | 10 |
| RE: -.2
Thanks for the statistics - interesting reading.
Personally, I'd give Mass and Brambilla � a victory each as their wins only
won half points (Mass at the tragic Spanish GP [1975] and Brambilla at the rain
shortened Austrian [1975] - he crashed on the straight after taking the chequered
flag!).
Steve
|
837.85 | 2 or 3? | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Thu Jan 18 1990 09:58 | 6 |
| I had the impression that Prost only had two WC titles, up until now.
Can someone confirm the three titles (like, in what years?).
Uncertainly yours,
Chris
|
837.86 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Thu Jan 18 1990 10:18 | 35 |
| Re: .-1
Its three wins - '85, '86 and '89.
Lets add to this trivia and see how far complete a record we can get with
world chapions over the years - no peeking at books now; that's cheating!
I'll start - please fill in the blanks.
'89 Prost
'88 Senna
'87 Piquet
'86 Prost
'85 Prost
'84 Lauda
'83 Piquet
'82 Rosberg
'81 Piquet
'80 Jones
'79 Scheckter
'78 Andretti
'77 Lauda
'76 Hunt
'75 Lauda
'74 Fittipaldi
'73 Stewart
'72 Fittipaldi
'71 Stewart
'70 Rindt
'69 Stewart
'68 Hill
'67 Hulme?
Now we have a mix of Clark, Brabham, Hill and Surtees - but I don't know the
order.
|
837.87 | I remember it! | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Thu Jan 18 1990 13:33 | 8 |
| There's maybe (sadly) more: but one of the list mentioned in .86 became
world champion posthumously.
Who was it?
Quizzly yours,
Chris
|
837.88 | Jochen Rindt (World Champion in 1970) | LARVAE::LEACH | Better to burn out than fade away | Thu Jan 18 1990 17:15 | 1 |
|
|
837.89 | 1950-1966 WC | ASHBY::ZETTERLUND | | Fri Jan 19 1990 23:22 | 21 |
| Re: .86
I'll give it a try.
'66 Brabham
'65 Clark
'64 Surtees
'63 Clark
'62 G. Hill
'61 P. Hill
'60 Brabham
'59 Brabham
'58 Hawthorn
'57 Fangio
'56 Fangio
'55 Fangio
'54 Fangio
'53 Ascari
'52 Ascari
'51 Fangio
'50 Farina
|
837.90 | Defence policy | CURRNT::JENKINS_R | Undone, Underdone or Overdone? | Mon Jan 22 1990 17:34 | 16 |
|
I believe Senna could legitimately claim that the championship had
been manipulated. He obviously believes it was. He should be allowed
to say so.
Since FISA don't publish any guidelines for the punishments to be
handed out when rules are broken, they lay themselves open to the
charge of manipulation.
FISA have said that they didn't manipulate the championship and have
banned Senna. If Senna's claim was so ludicrous, would not a dignified
silence have been better. "Qui s'excuse, s'accuse"?
|
837.91 | No points for nice sandcastles | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Wed Jan 24 1990 16:22 | 19 |
| As has already been said , if Senna spent more time on the track
and less time scratching around in the sandtraps he would have had
more points and the situation would not have arrisen. That would
tend to make Senna's statement about the manipulation of the
championship a little silly, if you don't finish you don't get points
for trying. All in all the whole situation is plain stupid. What
ever senna believe's for what ever reason , a personal opinion is
just that, Fisa should be professional enough to see that his opinion
is unfounded and in anycase you cant win the championship when
you play sandcastle instead of racing. If anybody done anything
to the championship to effect the result he did buy not finishing
in so many races. Stupid but simple.
Garry
|
837.92 | Some harsh words on Senna from Mansell | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | I late brake for off-ramps | Wed Jan 24 1990 17:10 | 33 |
| "From the point of talent and speed," Mansell says, "Senna is one of
the great drivers. No one could deny that. But I don't think he copes
with pressure that well; since he's been with McLaren-Honda, he hasn't
faced it that often. He's worked very cleverly there, putting himself
in a position where he can demonstrate his ability without being seriously
challenged. This is why people think he's far better than anyone else out
there - which, in my opinion, is not true. Yes, he's one of the great drivers
out there, but I think there are three or four of us who can do exactly the
same job - and do it better, in some respects.
"I know the only way he beats me, when we're racing together, is by having
me off. Simple as that. He doesn't give a second thought to shutting the door,
or having people off the road. If you're going to race alongside a guy like
this, you have to make a full commitment, which literally means taking your life
in your hands. But I made up my mind in Hungary if a chance came up, I'd take
it, and I'd hold my ground.
"Catching him, I could see where he was quicker, and where I was. And when we
got up to Johansson, I think Ayrton made a small error of judgment on closing
speed, and had to back off a fraction. There was a gap, and I went for it -
there wasn't time to think about it. Fortunately it came off.
"It's a sad thing to say, but I don't mind saying it: When you're racing with
Senna, no matter how great he is and all that, you cannot trust him. I've been
in situations where I've been following him through corners, and... let's say,
he's slowed down in places where you'd expect him to accelerate. My senses
are never as highly tuned as when I'm running wheel-to-wheel with him.
"At Spa, you see, I had a real battle with Prost in the last few laps, but
that was a beautiful race, absolutely clean. That's the difference between
the two blokes, you see. Everything Alain's achieved, he's achieved as a
sportsman."
|
837.93 | | LISVAX::BRITO | | Thu Jan 25 1990 09:22 | 62 |
|
.91� As has already been said , if Senna spent more time on the track
.91� and less time scratching around in the sandtraps he would have had
.91� more points and the situation would not have arrisen. That would
That idea of Senna "scratching around in the sandtraps" is something
that is hard to understand. We've seen a lot of pilots (Prost,
Nigel, Berger and many other doing the same. So I don't see what
you're trying to say. What we did see was Senna being caught in
an accident with Nigel, in Portugal, when Nigel was already disqualified
and should not be on track... and later in Japan by Prost who tried
to stop Senna just before the corner. This can be seen in slow motion
in tapes of the recording. Now what's the official reason Senna
was disqualified?
Taking the short way to return to the track ? Prost did the same
in a former Grand Prix (Italy??? can't remember exactly).
Using some part of the track that usually isn't used ?
Mansell did the same in Belgium.
Dangerous driving?
This is a very misleading concept. What is dangerous driving?
I think that in Motorbikes Grand Prix riders do lots of maneuvers
that could be classified this way. Rallies are in the same situation.
What are the objective parameters to detect such a situation and
punish a pilot for that? where are these parameters described in
detail? If they are not established, how and when can they be applied.
On what grounds? To me they are being applied because they couldn't
come up with anything better to make Prost the champion.
The reality is that Prost did a full press campaign.
First he blamed Honda, stating that he was being given the worst
engines. Than he started a campaign against Senna trying to show
that he was a religious fanatic. And he did this all over the season.
It paid him well. The question is what/who will he blame in this next
season.
So, to me last season's champion isn't the real one. And JMB knows
it also. That's why he started the last episode of this cheap story,
when he knew Senna's view on the matter. It would be great to have
Senna mouth shut, not to spoil the facade...
The last news I heard were referring that JMB stated that all these
events were a press invention. A real confusion in my opinion!
.92�< Note 837.92 by CARP::SHAUGHNESSY "I late brake for off-ramps" >
.92� -< Some harsh words on Senna from Mansell >-
Some of the criticism of Mansell could fit him quite well.
He can't cope with pressure too... He reversed in the pits, does
silly mistakes. And this beautiful friendship with Prost... I will
only believe in it at the end of next season.
RUI
|
837.94 | Seen him on the hills? | CURRNT::SAXBY | Isn't it 5.30 yet? | Thu Jan 25 1990 09:36 | 26 |
|
Ah, why don't we stop all this petty bickering.
Mr Brito is obviously deeply in love with Ayrton while others of
you consider him to be the anti-christ!
Let's look at the facts.
Alain Prost won the world championship, whether or not Senna is
declared winner of the Japanese GP.
By now Senna has hopefully learnt his lesson (He is over aggressive
at times, but it should be down to the Clerk's of the Course to
bring him to book about this.) If he continues with his prima-donna
behaviour then punish him when he commits an offence not 8 months
later!
The best thing now would be for all the parties to shut up and get
on with sorting out the championship for next season. If Senna is
so great he'll win the championship next season and if he isn't
someone else might (only might, that depends on Honda!).
Mark
PS Oh yes, and Balestre is a w**ker!
|
837.95 | Senna? Dangerous. | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Thu Jan 25 1990 13:49 | 11 |
| BTW, Senna still has not applied for the Super-License. Term date is
Feb.15th.
Re. Brito:
Seems my TV set is tuned differently from yours. So are many other
people's.
Objectively yours,
Chris
|
837.96 | | LISVAX::BRITO | | Thu Jan 25 1990 14:17 | 17 |
| by CURRNT::SAXBY "Isn't it 5.30 yet?" >
-< Seen him on the hills? >-
re.94� Ah, why don't we stop all this petty bickering.
> Mr Brito is obviously deeply in love with Ayrton while others of
> you consider him to be the anti-christ!
> Let's look at the facts.
Mr Brito is not in love with Ayrton. Actually, Mr Brito might be
in love with the truth, which is something that some replies in
this topic systematically avoid.
|
837.97 | | CURRNT::SAXBY | Isn't it 5.30 yet? | Thu Jan 25 1990 15:10 | 14 |
|
Nothing personal Rui, it's just that your opinions do seem at odds
with 99% of the other people in this conference.
You MIGHT be right and the rest of us wrong, but then again maybe
you have a very different idea of what constitutes the truth to
most of the other noters.
Still, at least you are consistent in your belief that poor old
Senna has been persecuted while other evil drivers like Mansell
(who you poured equal scorn to that which Senna receives upon)
can get away with anything.
Mark
|
837.98 | Who? | VOGON::KAPPLER | John Kappler | Thu Jan 25 1990 16:00 | 10 |
| Rathole .....
" and Balestre is a w**ker "
Judging by another conference, I don't think you should say this.
Perhaps you should change it to:
"Balestre is not recommended"
:-) :-)
|
837.99 | | FNYMV4::PELLATT | Conan the chain-store fugitive | Thu Jan 25 1990 16:37 | 6 |
| What's wrong with calling the guy a wALKer ? I mean, he did,
didn't he ? Walk across the track... ( which GP ? )
...not recommended... (8^)
Dave.
|
837.100 | | CURRNT::SAXBY | Isn't it 5.30 yet? | Fri Jan 26 1990 09:16 | 9 |
|
> What's wrong with calling the guy a wALKer ? I mean, he did,
If you read the title in the note I put that in you'll see that
that was EXACTLY what I meant. :^)
I'm glad it wasn't lost on you.
Mark
|
837.101 | Brundle leaves Brabham | CURRNT::JENKINS_R | Undone, Underdone or Overdone? | Fri Jan 26 1990 11:12 | 13 |
|
Re : last few - yeah, you meant he was a "Murray Walker" didn't you?
And then:
Martin Brundle announced yesterday that he was leaving the Brabham F1
team as they were failing to meet the conditions of his contract.
It was not stipulated what these conditions were.
Maybe Brundle will go back to Jaguar. They have a spare seat now that
Cheever is returning to the US. Or maybe.....
|
837.102 | Crystal Ball Time | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Tue Jan 30 1990 08:56 | 55 |
| Latest news:
From Ceefax
FISA have rejected McLaren's application for the 1990 season until
the Senna situation is resolved - who sees a FISA/FOCA war on the
horizon?
From The Guardian
Silverstone has got a contract to run the British GP until 1996.
Included in the package are circuit modifications to add 11 new
corners (!!!!!) and more contour variations following this year's
race. Should be interesting to see the plans.
Anyway, as this topic has passed the 100 point with 5 weeks to go
before the start of the season lets get down to some serious
speculation rather than the -
Ayrton is God/Ayrton is the Devil
discussion we have been having.
IMHO - I cannot see the champion coming from anyone outside the
Senna/Prost/Mansell triangle although Berger must be a reasonable
outside bet.
Senna is unquestionably the quickest around but still has a bit
of an F3 brain in tight situations. I reckon he will conquer this
and he's my bet for the title. Prost is moving down the Piquet road
in that he is not always motivated. However, his times in the Ferrari
indicate some new enthusiasm so if the season starts well he should
be in with a shout. But if things go badly he might start to drift.
As for "Our Nige" he's obviously a contender but I wish he wouldn't
whinge so much! Maybe its the Birmingham accent crossed with the
pigeon english he now speaks! I reckon he'll be running Senna closest
though. Gerhard? Too nice to be champion, but should pick up a few
wins and may be a dark horse by accumulating points behind the other
three.
I can't see much hope for the rest. The Williams boys will be quick
but neither seem regular race winners. Piquet and Nannini should
go well but again don't seem to be able to do it regularly.
My two big hopes for the year are that Lotus-Lambo will gel and
become a front runner and that Leyton House will get their new V10
running and get back to where they were in 1988.
Outsider for a win? Alessi if the big 4 knock each other off.
I throw myself open to your arrows.
Paul
|
837.103 | .102 confirmed | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Jan 30 1990 09:59 | 14 |
| Last night there was a forum on french radio "france inter" with
JMB + Prost + Alesi. JMB declared exactly what .102 noted ie
- He declared McLaren is NOT guaranteed to be allowed to compete
- Reason is that Senna has not yet apologized for his declarations
- Real reason : Senna is a most brilliant driver but he has been
MANIPULATED by Ron Dennis
This sudden change of attitude is strange. About a week ago JMB
was taking a very diplomatic attitude: "we're not asking for public
apologies, just a frank discussion and ... sure we'll give Senna
his F1 superlicense"
Now he seems to be after Ron Dennis.
|
837.104 | one last shot on The Argument (RUI wound me up) | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | 1066,1215,1789,1848,1917,1989 | Tue Jan 30 1990 18:05 | 37 |
| >...to me last season's champion isn't the real one.
C'mon, RUI! 8^o Don't clutch to the fantasy that Ayrton actually
"won" at Suzuka! Nannini's people saw the repeated push starts on
the big screen and told him to knock about 5 seconds off his lap
time and stay out of his way. Senna didn't "win" the Japanese,
he finished ahead of a car that had let him catch up and go by
uncontested knowing that, even on Honda's property, the push starts
meant he, like Nigel in Estoril, "wasn't really there."
You're right that many others have re-entered downcourse, but not
after repeated push starts. You're wrong to absolve Senna at Estoril
because the car was "technically not there," for a crash is a safety
issue, not a standings issue. Big difference.
Dangerous driving isn't the issue per se. Dangerous driving FOR
COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE is. That Prost shut the door on Senna proves
nothing. We anti-Sennas never denied that. But itt was a long
overdue payback for the many times that Senna has done the same...
only on those occassions Prost had the good sense to back off,
should poor Alain be penalized because Senna didn't?
But FINITO to this debate:
re .102
The competitive field is narrowed somewhat cuz two of the stronger
cars are driven by steady but not especially quick pilots in Boutsen
and Patrese. They always seem to be in the top six in the running
so when it rains or there are a lot of crashes they could pick up
a win or two. They seldom if ever compete on lap times, seems they
compete more on consistency. Nannini could surprise. Over here
in America the Ford people are hinting that they have that V-8 going
so well that their V-12 project is being scaled back a bit.
MrT
|
837.105 | a boring discourse on bmep, hp, etc | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Tue Jan 30 1990 23:24 | 13 |
| Mr T, I can't believe the Ford V8 will be able to match the Honda,
Ferrari, and Renault 10s and 12s. On torque the Ford may well have
an edge, but hp = revs, and revs = many smaller pistons, rods and
valves, rather than fewer big ones. In addition, as LJK Setright
is so fond of pointing out, hp is also directly related to the total
area of an engines combustion chambers and intake valves -- more
cylinders give more of both. Apparently, the difference in friction
between 8s and 12s is not enought to make up for the 12's other
advantages.
Still remembering some of my M.E. courses,
Don
|
837.106 | Test your judgement? | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Wed Jan 31 1990 12:16 | 62 |
| With the new season approaching, maybe it's time to
think about the 1990 prediction challenge.
As many of you will know Colin Dawson has run a competition
to predict the outcome of the F1 season for some years but
may not be running it this year due to the admin problems.
Some of this is doubtless because of the money aspect of it.
So how about a very simple, pride at stake only, effort through
the notes conference. This way we should get maximum number of
entries.
I suggest we make it just a question of predicting the top
six drivers (1-6) in the world championship - simple.
SCORING
-------
Less simple is the question of how to score it. Having entered
a few of these over the years I'll suggest something for
starters.
* 5 points for predicting a driver who gets in the top six.
* 5 points for getting him in the correct place, 3 for 1 place
out, and 1 for 2 places out.
I haven't suggested any bonus for getting the winner correct
since it's often, particularly in recent years, easier to
predict the winner than any other position - so why give a
bonus?.
ENTRY TIME
----------
The choice here is -
* Before the start of the season.
* Before the second race.
The first option is the more logical, but it usually takes the
first race to 'wake' people up and it allows those who haven't
been following the close season through mags etc. a chance to
get some idea of form.
ENTRY METHOD
------------
People could either just put their entry straight in here as
a reply, where all can see it, or mail to someone who then
publishes all after the cutoff date thus achieving confidentiality.
We could have part season 'tables' to show how people are
getting on. I think this season is destined to be the closest
for quite some years, should be interesting.
Reply if you like the idea of the competition and if you've
any ideas on the rules.
-John
PS. Only once have I ever managed to win one of these things
and that was by being the only person to back Rosberg in his
winning year!. The moral of this being that virtually unknown
drivers can win if they get the right equipment.
|
837.107 | On engines | ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSY | 1066,1215,1789,1848,1917,1989 | Wed Jan 31 1990 15:54 | 28 |
|
I don't think you'll see any entries until the JMB vs. Dennis battle
extravaganza is resolved, John.
re .105
No doubt about it you're right. BUT, the mass/friction vs. bhp
tradeoff theory, while certainly correct only within some broad
framework. For instance, Honda and its $100/yr coulda had their
V-12 on the track two years ago, but apparently found either the
mass, or friction, or ancillary tradeoffs such as size or reliabilty
such that a V-10 made more sense. The book right now sez a V-10
can do more or less as well as a V-12, even excluding Honda, what with
Renault's relative success.
I don't contend that V-8s make sense, but I swear Ford's making
all kind of noises about how its development is outstripping their
V-12 program (maybe this sez more about the bad work being done
on the latter, dunno ;^). And it could be they're smokescreening,
a not uncommon practice in F1.
Going back to the Renault, and its unique valvetrain in particular,
one wonders why - givng its purported advantage in mass - it hasn't
been implemented in a V-12. I don't remember the valvetrain being
unreliable, seems like everytime the Williams retire it was due
to a radiator!
MrT
|
837.108 | Ultimatum | MOVIES::BLAKE | CTERMinator | Wed Jan 31 1990 21:17 | 5 |
| I just read on TV that McLaren have until 5pm tomorrow (Thursday) to
pay Senna's $100,000 fine else they will be banned/suspended
or something.
Would JMB/FISA dare?
|
837.109 | They done it | SUTRA::FROST | | Thu Feb 01 1990 09:18 | 6 |
| re: .108
They did! Its just on the news.
re: a previous note and a comment about recent times on Prost and the
Ferarri, does anyone have any details....
|
837.110 | But who did what to who ?????!!! | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Studying fluid dynamics, from a stein | Thu Feb 01 1990 09:38 | 8 |
| > They did! Its just on the news.
What did they do ?! Did FISA/JMB ban Senna/McLaren or did McLaren
pay up ?
Pray tell !!
Gordon
|
837.111 | Them did it to Them | SUTRA::FROST | | Thu Feb 01 1990 10:26 | 7 |
| The news this morning states that
1. Le Mans has been cancelled this year (by FISA) since no resolution
has been found to the long standing row over the section of the
circuit that is considered too fast. Scuttlebut says that Mercedes
will run at 400+ Kph this season.
2. FISA has returned the request for a licence to McLaren.
|
837.112 | Pipe Dream | SHAPES::BUCKLEYC | | Thu Feb 01 1990 16:41 | 3 |
|
Are Oval pistons allowed in F1? If they were Honda would be thinking
in terms of 64v v8's.
|
837.113 | Monsewer Ballast Deflates Ayrhead? No ovals. | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Thu Feb 01 1990 22:42 | 8 |
| Fellow noters,
Is it true that Monsewer Ballast has rejected McLaren's application?
Please, detailed input/answers in future!
No, oval pistons are NOT allowed in F1.
Don
|
837.114 | Testing times | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Fri Feb 02 1990 08:16 | 17 |
| RE: .108
The news that I heard on testing at Paul Ricard was the following:
Prost was the fastest in 1:03.8?
Mansell went around in 1:04.6?
Alliot was the suprise third fastest.
Last season, pole position was 1:07.??.
The report was in French, and I ain't bi-lingual, so I might have goofed;
however those seem to broadly be the times. Looks like Ferrari are heading in
the right direction (3 seconds is a LOT of improvement); however I'm sure that
the other teams aren't lagging behind.
McLaren may be have had their licence returned; however I'm sure they'll be
there at the start of the season - things always work out somehow!
|
837.115 | more details | SUTRA::FROST | | Fri Feb 02 1990 08:24 | 21 |
| news this morning - and an interview last night.
Ballestre was interviewed last night on TF1, 20:30.
The ars***e journalist barraged him with impertinent comment, not too
intelligent I might add, and even said that Ballestre was seen in
certain quarters as the Caucescou of motor sport.
Ballestre got the following accross:
FISA is a professional body composed of approx 70,000 members, 30k from
USA, approx 10k from the "east block" etc. etc.
He said that he did not personally participate in the vote to sanction
McLaren but that he personally is seen as the perpetrator.
Now all you anarchists out there get your comment in, as I have mine,
(that is democratic), but do bear in mind that formal motor sport would
not run per se. without a rule making anfd governing body.
George Frost
|
837.116 | Not impressed! | CURRNT::SAXBY | Isn't it 5.30 yet? | Fri Feb 02 1990 09:19 | 22 |
|
Re .115
Are you serious?
I'd like to know how decisions are reached withing FISA, but I doubt
that they are as truly democratic as your note implies.
As has been mentioned before, the votes taken by FISA are always
heavily loaded in favour of the vote that Balestre wants (such
as 'Are you prepared to be responsible for a fatal crash at Le Mans
or should the straight be chopped to bits'!).
As for impertinent comments. Who the f**k do you (or they) think
that FISA are? They're basically a self appointed body, which can
be usurped quite effectively if the will is there, as it has been
in the USA.
Politicians get barracked for idiotic decisions, what makes FISA's
tinpot dictatorship holier than them?
Mark
|
837.117 | silly billy | SUTRA::FROST | | Fri Feb 02 1990 11:03 | 14 |
| Mr. Saxby (or is it Mrs. or Ms),
your ideas really are full of horses**t. Try thinking a bit. If the world
of F1 etc. does not want FISA they won't keep the organisation around.
To this end it appears that (news this morning) McLaren have paid up.
Now if that is the case FISA must be regarded by McLaren as of some
consequence.
Why dont you start a formal get rid of Ballestre campaign - I might
even join you, but untill such time I view FISA as legitimate and
Ballestre as their representative.
George Frost
|
837.118 | Oval pistons in F1? & P.S. | SHAPES::GALVINS | Steven GALVIN @UCG, DTN:781-4393 :-) | Fri Feb 02 1990 11:56 | 13 |
| RE: .112 & .113
what are the advantages of oval pistons and why are they banned from F1?
Regards
Steven
P.S. RE: -1 & -2, Do you really have to resort to swear words to put
across your case? Is this how you normally express yourself?
I hardly think it gives credibility to your points of view when
you have to resort to that type of language.
|
837.119 | Wind up or what? | CURRNT::SAXBY | Isn't it 5.30 yet? | Fri Feb 02 1990 12:29 | 24 |
|
Re .117
Mr (Mrs or Ms) Frost. :^)
You and I can't influence whether FISA exist or not. The only
people with that power are the competitors and the race organisers
, who still seem unable to present a united front against the rantings
of the current incumbent of the FISA presidency.
If clear facts are to waste produce of horses (suit you Steve?)
then I agree that my note is full of them, but it is a fact that
in the United States big money, top line motor racing takes place
which is controlled by the circuit owners and the competitors.
It's no wonder that so many manufacturers choose to race in America
rather than in FISA controlled World Championships when the rules
are bent and twisted at whim by the 'supposed' governing body.
Come on, next you'll be telling me that Bernie Ecclestone is solely
interested in motorsport!
Mark
|
837.120 | On deaf ears? | SUTRA::FROST | | Fri Feb 02 1990 13:35 | 6 |
| re: your facts, Tell me the facts on how FISA arrives at a decision.
You admitted yourself that you don't know, actually nor do I.
Who is Bernie Echostone?
George Frost
|
837.121 | You fooled me completely! :^) | CURRNT::SAXBY | Isn't it 5.30 yet? | Fri Feb 02 1990 13:51 | 4 |
|
Now I know you're winding me up!
Mark
|
837.122 | See him regularly | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Fri Feb 02 1990 14:00 | 1 |
| Actually, Frosty the Snowman's quite a suitable kind of chap.
|
837.123 | ????????????? | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Fri Feb 02 1990 14:04 | 8 |
| re. a few back
Well I did watch the famous interviews of Balestre last night on
TF1 and FR3. He said he would announce the F1 teams today at 1pm.
At 2:30pm still no announcement. He also said Senna was given until
14 Feb to present apologies/explanations. He's really after McLaren.
His words were : FISA World Council will announce the 32 or 34 cars
registered to this year's F1 World Championship.
|
837.125 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Fri Feb 02 1990 16:15 | 15 |
| RE: -.1
That's exactly what the RAC's late motor sport director said when he stood
against Balestre, and lost, in 1982. The RAC were pretty unhappy about
Balestre riding rough-shod over them and Lotus - the double wing car, which
prompted them to stand against Balestre.
Basil (I forget his surname) was very diplomatic about the loss - no sour
grapes - but left the reader in doubt about how Balestre has managed to stay
in power. I think that he's been running the show for 12 seasons now - as long
as the UK's beloved leader?!
Cheers
Steve
|
837.126 | bidness is bidness... | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | 1066,1215,1789,1848,1917,1989 | Fri Feb 02 1990 16:42 | 31 |
| The question is who's democratic. FISA is a business filled with
businessmen; JMB's at the top during an unprecedented era of business
success so he has mucho leverage.
Frankly, I'm surprised at how quickly most of us have lost sight
of the real issue here: Senna's behavior, on and off-track, became
progressively more outrageous and dangerous over the past two years.
JMB and Bernie let him get away with everything... until he finally
turned on *them* as well. Then I-Hear-A-Taunt, paranoiac that he
surely is, impugns all of racing as involved in a plot to rob him
of a race that he didn't even really win on the tarmac.
JMB may be a heel, but he's got a point on the Senna issue. As
for Ecclestone, whom I consider a least twice as oily as JMB, he's
done some good for motor racing. He had the requisite testosterone
to force the Group C manufacturers to either show up at all the
races or pay huge fines; a move that saved the great sport of sports
car racing in Europe.
Per my example, Bernie doesn't even LIKE sports cars, but as a business
man he did the right thing for the sport. I only wish he took such
a long view for F1 with these rotten street courses, but as long
as the money flows in (i.e., as long as you and I continue tuning
in to view Phoenix) he'll respond to the only language he understands:
cold hard cash.
Similarly, it's bad business to let an unappreciative little squirt
of a megalomanaic publicly crap all over the sport. JMB's not nailing
him for being a creep, he's doing it cuz it's prudent business!
MrT
|
837.127 | In reality it's more like this | VANDAL::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Fri Feb 02 1990 16:48 | 30 |
| What actually runs motor racing isn't Balestre, FISA, the teams
and least of all drivers but -
MONEY
The sponsors who provide virtually all of the money to support
the great Grand Prix Circus want organised, world wide competition.
They would also prefer it to be close and entertaining to keep
Joe Public watching. 'Fans' take a back seat.
If FISA, the circuit people, national bodies etc. don't want to
provide the goods, then they'll go elsewhere. The key man in
interpreting the wishes of the Money, is one Bernard Ecclestone,
president of FOCA, the organisation that represents most teams.
Together Balestre/FISA/FOCA are often obliged to meet with these
requirements, or at least up to a point. There's no point of
being a big fish in a non-existant pond after all.
This Senna incident is classic. He's not good PR really, not as
good as Prost and infinitely worse than the likes of Stewart and
Hill say. The money, apart from his immediate backers of course,
won't miss him. He's on a one way trip out at present, unless
he changes his ways.
Machines back, gotta go.
-John
|
837.128 | Its no choice but.... | CURRNT::JENKINS_R | Undone, Underdone or Overdone? | Fri Feb 02 1990 16:54 | 7 |
|
If Senna had shown the same brutality and pig-ignorance on the track
as JMB and FISA show off it, many would have died.
I would take 36 Ayrton Sennas rather than 1 JMB/FISA.
|
837.129 | Here come the bad old days! | CURRNT::SAXBY | Digital? Yeah I worked there ONCE! | Fri Feb 02 1990 16:59 | 54 |
|
Re .126
You make a good point about MGB, but don't fall for his apparently
generous acts towards Group C (and also don't forget that it was
actually Jaguar's involvement in the sport that REALLY saved it,
MGB just decided that all that money shouldn't be going elsewhere
and that he should get his share, which did, admittedly help it
even more).
The latest FISA offensive upon sportscar racing (the 'murder' of
the last truly classic sportscar race) leaves the door open to allow
the introduction of Bernie's baby; Procars!
These pseudo sportscars clad in saloon car bodies were probably
one of the dumbest ideas anyone has ever had, being both unattractive
to spectators, sponsors and the manufacturers who were supposed
to be crying for them, and downright dangerous with F1 style power
and no aerodynamics to handle it!
Unsuprisingly it was treated with overwhelming disinterest, but now
, with only short races on the calendar, it can begin to rear its
ill-conceived head again. Anyone want a bet that the Group C rules
won't change again within 3 years?
Also, although Ecclestone forced the Japanese manufacturers to do
the whole championship, why should they bother to take part now
that their primary interest (Le Mans) has been thrown from the
championship for a second year? Very few people know who won the
WSPC, but most people could tell you who won Le Mans.
The current bungling in Group C will undoubtedly (IMO) lead to another
period of dreary races dominated by one or two manufacturers in
years to come as the WSPC becomes less and less important or relevant
to manuacturers and sponsors alike.
Another thing which FISA claim, which caused me to smile, was that
THEY had saved sportscar racing by introducing Group C. Although
it is true that they introduced Group C, it was, in fact, the ACO
who virtually forced them into it by opening the Le Mans 24 hour
race up to cars like the current Group C back in the late 70s/early
80s. Nobody was interested in racing Group 5 (which is exactly what
Procars sound like to me!), but many sponsors and manufacturers
wanted to be seen to compete at Le Mans with big, exciting looking
sports-racers.
I'd forgotten about the attempt to seize control of FISA over the
Lotus 80 affair, but at least it shows that there used to be people
with spines involved in motor racing.
Yours, increasingly disillusioned,
Mark
|
837.131 | | ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSY | People's Court for the people | Mon Feb 05 1990 14:37 | 31 |
|
Keep JMB's behavior in perspective by analogy: Frequently here in
the States a player or coach goes off big-time claiming he was jobbed
by an official or administrator or whatever. This is tolerated
within limits, part of the show you know, but when those limits
are exceeded such behavior becomes detrimental to the common good
of the sport. It's quite common for big fines, suspensions, etc.
to be levied when such limits are passed. What JMB is doing now
is not unusual to other sport. In fact, the near anarchy that prevails
in F1 is what's unique to it.
re: Group C
Could it be MGB was afraid of IMSA going international? There's
a lot of Japanese participation coming up in GTP lately, and that
coulda meant co-opting them away from the C series, such as it is.
I'd like to see GTP and C merge.
re: ACO Le Mans
Is Mulsaunne the real issue? If technology can be used to increase
race car performance why can't it be used to increase race TRACK
performance? For example, Indy Cars are hitting straightaway speeds
of 230 MPH or thereabouts, and NASCAR stockers probably around 220;
with the difference that they do it with the fans sitting just a
few feet away! I'm unfamiliar with Le Mans but my guess is that
the fans are placed 100 feet or so away from the Mulsaunne. With
a race that prestigious why not reinforce the Armco and throw up
some cable-reinforced fencing and let him fly?
MrT
|
837.132 | Ah, well. | CURRNT::SAXBY | Digital? Yeah I worked there ONCE! | Mon Feb 05 1990 14:45 | 8 |
|
Re .131
There are places on the Mulsanne where you are only inches from
the barrier! Not many people venture out to the straight at all
though.
Mark
|
837.133 | There's nothing like objectivity and facts, right? | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Mon Feb 05 1990 15:52 | 10 |
| > If Senna had shown the same brutality and pig-ignorance on the track
> as JMB and FISA show off it, many would have died.
> I would take 36 Ayrton Sennas rather than 1 JMB/FISA.
A touch sensitive we are today, aren't we?
Wonderingly yours,
Chris
|
837.134 | Well if you didn't, who did ? | RUTILE::SMITH_A | 2 down and 1 to go | Mon Feb 05 1990 17:17 | 23 |
| re .131
I think that FISA's objection to the Mulsanne being too straight
is for the drivers protection. The theory being that drive has nothing
to do except keep his car in straight line, so thereby loses some
concentration then bingo..it's kiss the armco time. I don't know
if any drivers would necessarily agree with that. From interviews
i've seen and heard they look on the Mulsanne as a nice rest and
time to gather thoughts for the next circuit of the course.
As for viewpoints, as Mark mentioned, you can get within inches
of the armco *but* there are no *public* viewpoints at all on the
Mulsanne. No stands, no access, nix. The only way to get there is
by trudging across fields, or by visiting a restaurant that is on
the straight and does a nice trade at very nice prices (thank you
very much, just leave the arm and leg on the pile with the others)
So as most people have already stated, if the drivers havn't asked
for it, the constructors havn't said their cars can't handle it,
and there is no danger to the public (as far as I could tell), then
why do FISA want to cock it up ?
I think that question has been asked many times.
|
837.135 | if I can add one point | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Feb 05 1990 18:00 | 20 |
| The BIG problem with LeMans "circuit" is that 80% of it is open public
roads. The straight is the normal road from LeMans to Tours. Only
a few days before the race they close the road and try to make it
a track. As noted earlier the straight is just straight line with
ARMCO. But when you it anything (a rabbit, a squirrel, or a part
of a wreck) at 400+ kmph all you find before your eyes is a forest
full of trees. That's the main difference with other circuits. No
emergency zones in the "Les Hunaudieres" (that's the real french
name of the straight).
Henri Pescarolo survived a terrible accident when testing a Matra
in the early 70's. At 300 kmph the nose suddenly lifted off. After
a few aerobatics he hit the ground, not the trees, he was severely
injured and burnt.
Lucien Bianchi killed himself while testing the Alfa 33 in 1969
at under 300kmph. He hit a tree after flying over the ARMCOs.
The serious discussion that JMB mentions is how to make the circuit
permanent and closed ?
|
837.136 | straight or money??? | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Mon Feb 05 1990 18:00 | 22 |
| Its the wrong place for this but seeings how someone mentioned it. The
straight at Le Mans has got to be an excuse. I go to as many sportscar
races as possible per year and Le Mans is one. Apart from Brands Hatch
last year , where the attendance was bigger that normal, that
attendance at a sportscar meeting normal fairly small ,30,000 ish.
At a normal meeting there is very little coverage on TV,
perhaps local or some of the satellite TV stations. At Le Mans there
are 250,000 plus spectators, I would think that most national stations
take coverage of some sort, except the beeb, and there's bundles of
travel companies who have hospitality laid on. All in all the whole
event is something close to an F1 meeting it terms of number of
spectator and TV coverage. What better place to jump on the band wagon
and to grab loads of money for doing nothing. I would suggest that to
FISA , Le Mans is an annoyance . That one race can command more
spectators, generate more money from TV coverage and more general
interest for one race than FISA can for a whole seasons championship.
I guess that Fisa though that this was easy money and got peeved when
it turned out to be a bit harder going.
Garry
|
837.137 | Arrows-Porsche | CASEE::MERRICK | Can't tell my parse from my elbow | Tue Feb 06 1990 09:05 | 4 |
| Back to F1.
Porsche have announced that ARROWS will have their engines for 1991.
|
837.138 | Onyx want one too!!! | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Tue Feb 06 1990 10:19 | 8 |
| Onyx seem to think that porsche had agreed to provide the V12 on a 5
year contract to them , but porsche seem to not think so. On Teletex
last night it suggested that Onyx were going to take porsche to court
as this was causing onyx lots of problems an loosing them money.
Garry
|
837.139 | Anecdotal report... | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Tue Feb 06 1990 10:25 | 9 |
| The Restaurant "La Rascasse", which gave the famous "final" bend on the
Monaco Grand Prix circuit its name, was up for auction because of
commercial failure of the owners.
Does this mean the end of a legend, if it goes to real estate sharks?
Nostalgically yours,
Chris
|
837.140 | Porsche mystery | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Feb 06 1990 11:40 | 19 |
| Porsche Weissach (R&D center) will supply its F1 engine to the Footwork
Arrows team for exclusive use for 3 years starting next year (1991,
1992, 1993). Former discussions with Brabham, Moneytron-Onyx, Leyton
House-March and Ligier (as reported by then chairman Heinz Branitzki)
were not conclusive.
Just a note: it's funny to realize that one more European manufacturer
teams up with a Japanese partner. If you talked to Porsche after
their aborted adventure (with Marlboro McLaren) they were ready
to fight. Seems that they have changed ideas.
Summary:
Footwork Arrows is almost 100% Japanese money
Leyton House March is 100% Japanese money
Moneytron-Onyx is x% Japanese money
Brabham is 0% Japanese money (italian/swiss)
Ligier is 0% Japanese money (french public funds)
|
837.141 | ARROWS!? ARROWS?! arrows? And LeMans | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Tue Feb 06 1990 12:55 | 16 |
| Huh?
ARROWS? They don't even have a designer! And Porsche entrusts their
image to Alboreto (he of the disappearing talent) and Caffi (lots of
potential, but . . . ) There's less here than meets the eye.
LeMans. Sorry to insert fact among the emotion, but both manufacturers
(TWR/Jaguar) and drivers (Schlesser among them) are OPPOSED to that
long straight. Walkinshaw says that the long straight can mask a
deflating tire -- you don't know it's bad until you lift off. Then
bye-bye. And it's a fact that the tire manufacturers seem to have a
hard time building a tire to handle that burst of speed -- and be worth
anything around the rest of the track. And I love LeMans.
Don
|
837.142 | Now, what can that mean? | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Tue Feb 06 1990 14:15 | 8 |
| McLaren have filed for two F1 cars: one for Gerhard Berger, one for a
driver "to be nominated".
Interesting, no?
Reportingly yours,
Chris
|
837.143 | Porsche F1 re entry | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Feb 06 1990 16:28 | 18 |
| re. Porsche and Footwork
What this may mean:
- Porsche got the money they asked for developping the engine over
a period of time (Footwork have a lot of money to spend)
- No top teams are ready to invest in a new design that has no guarantee
of both success and long term support and dedication
Porsche certainly made a BIG mistake when they dropped McLaren and
they built a very bad image of themselves when they did not react
to their many "electronics" failures. The Prost McLaren tandem should
not have lost the title that year. The agreement with Footwork
is extremely favorable for them while not putting them in the hands
of Mr Van Rossem (who would be extremely unhappy with a "medium"
engine).
I think this means that they are NOT confident in their F1 product.
|
837.144 | Who Footwork? | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Tue Feb 06 1990 17:21 | 4 |
| I'm just wondering who 'Footwork' are?. Doesn't sound very
Japanese to me. Anybody know.
-John
|
837.145 | Footwork = $$$ | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Feb 07 1990 11:39 | 9 |
| Footwork is a leading company in the food and agricultural business
in Japan.
What's funny to me is that all these japanese companies are switching
names from traditional japanese to real anglo/american names. The
reason is probably to fool their potential customers/partners. Footwork
and Leyton House are examples in F1. Pioneer, Canon, ... etc ... are
others.
|
837.146 | from vogon news... | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Wed Feb 07 1990 14:53 | 18 |
| :::MOTOR SPORT
Donnington will host a F1 race on Monday 16th April (Easter monday).
Organised in collaboration with FOCA, the 80 lap race should feature most F1
teams.
* Williams are currently testing three different cars - Williams
FW13B with a new Renault RS2 engine; FW12B with active suspension and an old
Judd engine; FW12C with a Renault RS1 engine and a "mixed" part-active
suspension. Fastest times at Jerez were by Patrese in the FW13B (1'16"23),
followed by Prost and Mansell in Ferrari's (1'16"41 and 1'16" 44
respectively). * The Le Mans 24-hour race will probably take place following
intervention from the French goverment who have promised that the disputed
chicanes will be installed, and that pit facilities will be improved for
1991.
...Art
|
837.147 | | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | Justice is Truth is Righteous | Wed Feb 07 1990 15:54 | 15 |
| I always assumed that the Leyton House name derived from some English
trading house based in Japan or somesuch.
What they gonna do with those chicanes on Mulsanne during normal
street use? They'll probably keep the straight segment intact but
barricade it off during the race.
Williams is sure experimenting a lot with configurations. That
could either be a good sign or a bad sign; sounds like maybe a bad
sign to me.
What's going on with Van Rossem. I take it he's in hot water for
tax evasion, is he going to jail?
MrT
|
837.148 | Rip off extremis! | CURRNT::SAXBY | Digital? Yeah I worked there ONCE! | Wed Feb 07 1990 16:04 | 7 |
|
Ok hands up which wally is going to pay �30 for the 'privilege'
of watching a FEW, SECOND RATE, drivers in F1 cars?
Mark (Who isn't!)
|
837.149 | Donnington - goodie | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Wed Feb 07 1990 17:20 | 6 |
| The last non-championship F1 race to be held in Britain was
a pretty lack lustre affiar it's true. But I'd welcome the
opportunity to get to see some F1 without the crowding/endless
queues that go with a GP. Bound to be cheaper too.
-John
|
837.150 | Strange | CURRNT::JENKINS_R | Undone, Underdone or Overdone? | Wed Feb 07 1990 17:23 | 6 |
|
A friend tells me that FISA will only allow the "1990" cars to
compete from the first European round onwards. Is this true?
Might make Donnington more attractive if it is - and possibly your
only chance to see Ayrton Senna :-)
|
837.151 | | CURRNT::SAXBY | Digital? Yeah I worked there ONCE! | Wed Feb 07 1990 17:25 | 6 |
|
John,
I don't know about cheaper. �30 is the figure I've seen quoted.
Mark
|
837.152 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Wed Feb 07 1990 17:29 | 9 |
| > A friend tells me that FISA will only allow the "1990" cars to
> compete from the first European round onwards. Is this true?
Doesn't make much sense whatsoever. It's quite normal for
many teams to start a season (always South America) with
last years car since what with the transport delays and
the like, the new one isn't always ready.
-John
|
837.153 | You were right... | 49973::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Wed Feb 07 1990 20:20 | 4 |
| Re: 837.89 by ASHBY::ZETTERLUND.
Looked it up last night - you got all of the champions exactly right -
congratulations!
|
837.154 | Yes, no, no, maybe? | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Thu Feb 08 1990 10:34 | 9 |
| re.152: your reply and the quote you extracted are NOT in
contradiction. It says first "European" round. Now, what is unclear to
me, is: does this mean that 1990 cars will be allowed beginning with
the first European GP, only, or that only 1990 cars will be allowed as
of the 1st EuroGP?
Curiously yours,
Chris
|
837.155 | All the news that's fit to print! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Feb 08 1990 11:07 | 29 |
| 1990 Latest
The confirmed entry list shows that Rial & Zakspeed have dropped
out (both saying they'll be back in '91), Osella and Coloni are
down to one entry, Eurobrun are up to two cars and the Life team
with Gary Brabham are now official.
The list also confirms that McHonda have Nos 27 & 28 so all you
Ayrton haters out there can have a field day when he appears with
Gilles sacred number. Mind you it is a nice irony that "Our Nige"'s
clothing franchise is based around No 27 :-)
Pre Qualifiers will be AGS, Lola, Coloni, Eurobrun, Life and Osella.
There are also rumours of problems with the Estoril circuit, and
reports of total and utter confusion at Brabham.
Pictures of the Ferrari 641 show only minor exterior changes from
the 640, but it has a bigger fuel tank (more power?) and secret
mods to the auto-box that allows the drivers to change down without
going through all the gears as last year. Electronic ride height
adjustment is expected soon, and major changes are expected after
Phoenix and Brazil (Donington debut??)
As a side issue - the RACMSA are expected to announce shortly that
the RAC Rally is going over to pace notes and a shorter more comapct
format, ending years of "secret" stages. - RIP real rallying!
Paul
|
837.156 | Zinggg..... | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Studying fluid dynamics, from a stein | Thu Feb 08 1990 11:18 | 10 |
| > mods to the auto-box that allows the drivers to change down without
> going through all the gears as last year.
Now that could be very interesting indeed ! Think of all those cogs
flying around when Mansell or Prost press the wrong button and
go from 6th to 1st gear doing 150 m.p.h or so. Ooh, painfull.
Gordon
|
837.157 | Strange but True | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Feb 08 1990 11:59 | 10 |
| From today's Autosport Cartoon -
A:(Re Sliverstone) 11 really challenging corners with contour
variations and elevation changes, ideal spectator vantage points
and grandstand position, plus a by-pass that connects with two
motorways - so what do you think?
B: Sounds like a description of Brands Hatch!
Paul
|
837.158 | | PEKING::TAYLORG | Bodybuilders do it till it hurts | Thu Feb 08 1990 13:05 | 3 |
| Do we still sponsor Ferrari ?
Grant
|
837.159 | If they pay me the same, stick it my nose.. | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Studying fluid dynamics, from a stein | Thu Feb 08 1990 13:26 | 6 |
| > Do we still sponsor Ferrari ?
I thought DEC just payed vast sums of money to have a sticker on
the nosecone, or does this constitute sponsorship :-)
Gordon
|
837.160 | Couldn't See the Stickers | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Feb 08 1990 13:27 | 12 |
| The pix of the F641 do not show any Digital stickers. I'd also heard
on the grape-vine that Ferrari were switching to Big Blue for CAD.
However, we have got a pretty good hold on the UK manufacturers
with Leyton House, Arrows, Benneton and, I think, Williams and Lotus.
I also heard a salesman's tale that we were hoping to sponsor L
House, although we would'nt be showing a logo on the car 'cos KO
doesn't like fast things. Maybe Andy Maclure in Newmarket could
enlighten us if its not still under negotiation?
Paul
|
837.161 | | SHAPES::KERRELLD | Dave Kerrell @UCG 781 x4101 | Thu Feb 08 1990 13:40 | 11 |
| I am sure this is covered elsewhere but Ferrari will only put the name of
their suppliers on the car and not sponsors. Digital Italy supplied computer
equipment and thus the Digital name on the nose cone over the last few
years.
In the past Digital UK have given equipment to Mclaren in exchange for
some two inch badges on the drivers overalls!
Hohum.
Dave.
|
837.162 | | CURRNT::JENKINS_R | Undone, Underdone or Overdone? | Thu Feb 08 1990 17:49 | 6 |
|
re. 161
Surely this isn't true? Ferrari display Marlboro logos on the car?
They must do more than just supply cigarettes?
|
837.163 | for the drivers | OASS::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Thu Feb 08 1990 18:17 | 4 |
| The Marlboro deal was the stickers in trade for the driver retainer,
from what I remember.
Dave
|
837.164 | | SHAPES::KERRELLD | Dave Kerrell @UCG 781 x4101 | Fri Feb 09 1990 08:55 | 5 |
| re .162:
What are you talking about, I never said anything of the kind.
Dave.
|
837.165 | | LUNER::PERLA | | Fri Feb 09 1990 16:21 | 6 |
| I just seen a picture of Alain Prost standing next to his Ferrari
after time trials in France in Autoweek mag. Digital logo was on
the front of the car. Is the schedule set for 1990 yet? Dates and
places of races been posted yet? Can't wait for GP in Montreal.
Barry
|
837.166 | JMB brought to book? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Fri Feb 09 1990 17:35 | 12 |
| There is to be a "special" extraordinary meeting of FISA next week
to review recent decisions. Could it be that JMB has finally pushed
things too far?
Re -1
The first pictures of Prost with Ferrari's showed the 89 car which
still had the Digital logo. You can look forward to seeing the cars
in Montreal on April 10th, I seem to remember the full schedule
being posted in the F1 1989 note.
Paul
|
837.167 | I wouldn't count on it | OASS::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Fri Feb 09 1990 17:52 | 5 |
| Naw, the meeting was probably called by JMB to decide Senna's license
for this year. The deadline is the 15th so this would fit with that
schedule.
Dave
|
837.168 | Back to 16 races again | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Mon Feb 12 1990 08:45 | 11 |
| Donington's Gone
Latest on Ceefax last night was that the Donington 200 had been
cancelled. Big Bernie was quoted that it would have been unfair
to promote an F1 race where all the major teams had not promised
their support.
Remember the FISA/FOCA wars? Bernie seems to swap hats quite well
;->
Paul
|
837.169 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Mon Feb 12 1990 12:08 | 2 |
| Eurosport (Sky) have signed a deal to beam EVERY round of the championship live
into your sitting room this season. So, Rupert M. does have his uses...
|
837.170 | | PEKING::TAYLORG | Bodybuilders do it till it hurts | Mon Feb 12 1990 13:45 | 5 |
| re-1
What about the people who have'nt got SKY ?
Grant
|
837.171 | Free with the Sun, wasn't it? | CURRNT::SAXBY | Digital? Yeah I worked there ONCE! | Mon Feb 12 1990 13:48 | 5 |
|
Hasn't everyone?
Mark :^)
|
837.172 | | COMICS::WEGG | Some hard-boiled eggs & some nuts | Mon Feb 12 1990 14:03 | 1 |
| Not while Murdoch has anything to do with it I haven't!!
|
837.173 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Tue Feb 13 1990 07:33 | 3 |
| Well I get Sky Sport cabled in for free here in Switzerland - if anyone wants
a full video of the proceedings (rather than the Beeb's half-hour highlights),
then I'm sure that we could work something out - drop me a line.
|
837.174 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Tue Feb 13 1990 13:12 | 28 |
| TV Coverage
-----------
Read last week that FOCA (Bernie Ecclestone), who have effective
control of the television rights for GPs are talking about only
selling the coverage to those TV companies who agree to show all
of the races in their entirety. The sponsors, you can easily realise,
aren't too pleased with the sketchy coverage that some companies
are providing, ie the BBC for one, and putting the pressure on.
I, for one, hope they succeed since I'm tired of the Beebs lack
lustre, never know what or when, attitude. Of course the 2 horse
race nature of recent years hasn't helped.
UK Grand Prixs
--------------
Isn't it time we in the UK had two races?. It is after all the major
centre of F1. Non championship races tend to be a bit of a washout,
what we need is a second championship race. When the GP of Europe
was held in the UK the turnout was very good and I enjoyed these
more than the British GP since they were less crowded.
Italy already has two races (inc San Marino), as does France (Monaco),
and indeed France used to have three when the Swiss GP was being run.
Come on Bernie get and organise another proper one!.
-John
|
837.175 | Nit-pick time | BRIANH::NAYLOR | Purring on all 12 cylinders | Tue Feb 13 1990 13:41 | 2 |
| The plural of Grand Prix is Grands Prix, or so my english teacher taught me
in 1962 ....
|
837.176 | going North ? | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Feb 13 1990 13:56 | 4 |
| John, do you know if (and when) the scottish GP, that Jackie Stewart
is working on, is going to happen ?
In any case I'd like to see more GP's at Brands Hatch.
|
837.177 | Clouded Skies! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Tue Feb 13 1990 14:15 | 12 |
| Re -a few
I can't believe you're serious that you'd prefer all GPs to be covered
by a minority cable channel? Look at the uproar in W Germany last
year when a cable company got the rights to Wimbledon and hardly
anyone saw Becker & Graf winning.
Having seen Sky motorsport coverage on cable when I lived in Milton
Keynes and the commentary etc was awful. Still we shall see - I'd
plump for Murray & James :-)
Paul
|
837.178 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Tue Feb 13 1990 14:54 | 7 |
| I agree that Sky's commentary (Andrew Marriot and John Watswrong), isn't as
good as the BBC's - I do miss Murray's faux pas's! However, it ain't bad - much
better than the rubbish you get covering most other sports on Eurovision.
RE: .174 The Swiss Grand Prix was always non-championship, rather like the
Daily Mail Race of Champions, so I guess the French only really get two races
after all...!
|
837.179 | Was it? | CURRNT::SAXBY | Digital? Yeah I worked there ONCE! | Tue Feb 13 1990 15:07 | 5 |
|
I'm sure the Swiss GP was in the championship at least once. Was
it held at Dijon?
Mark
|
837.180 | Dijon-Prenois | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Feb 13 1990 15:23 | 2 |
| Yep, Dijon. I was there in 1974 to watch the Peterson (Lotus) Lauda
(Ferrari) battle. I think it was a championship event.
|
837.181 | y | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Tue Feb 13 1990 17:44 | 22 |
| In Response. The swiss GPs I remember were all championship
events. I know nothing of the Scottish GP but it seems logical
to attach a country's name to it. Would it have to be run in
England though?.
I wasn't suggesting that F1 should go satellite only, more that
the major channel(s) should be persuaded to give 100% coverage.
There is after all a great deal more air time available now than
was the case say 10 years ago. I think the GP coverage comes pretty
cheap to TV companies because it's recognised as a form of
advertising. Hence the BBC can afford not to use all they've
paid for. If the BBC don't provide satisfaction, as far as
the GP fraternity is concerned, then they're likely to seek out
a deal elsewhere but there's no chance of going wholely to a
satellite channel since this would defeat the object of the
excercise inasmuch as there'd actually be less effective
coverage.
-John
PS Grand Prix = plural; Correct I imagine but I always say
Grand Prixs and GPs.
|
837.182 | | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Studying fluid dynamics, from a stein | Wed Feb 14 1990 07:04 | 24 |
|
Re. TV coverage.
If coverage of F1 was only via cable/satellite would not affect me,
we get 15 channel cable over here :-), I think there could be a
counterpoint to this in reality.
A lot of sponsors, although miffed at partial coverage, are said to
be very unhappy at the prospect of Grand Prix coverage being limited
to cable or satellite networks. It must be realised that the majority
of viewers do not have access to one of these networks, although numbers
are increasing, and the viewing figures for G.P's would be far less if
"national networks" did not get chance to screen races.
I think this all boils down to fact Bernie the "Bank" Ecclestone is
just after as much cash as possible, sell TV rights to the highest
bidder", and his so called annoyance at TV companies only showing
highlights is just a sham.
The motor racing fan, as usual, could end up being the loser in yet
another wrangle over money in motor sport.
Gordon
|
837.183 | Swiss Grand Prix | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Wed Feb 14 1990 12:15 | 11 |
| My mind gets fuzzy over time, however here goes:
The Swiss Grand Prix was held twice. I went to both of them. They were won by
Regazzoni and Jarier (the only race he ever won). They were held at Dijon. They
were non-championship - each team fielded one car (so no Lauda for Ferrari...).
The French Grand Prix was held at Dijon in 1974. It was also held there in later
years (it alternated with Paul-Ricard for a few years) after the loop
around the back end had been added. I was there for a French grand Prix - I
think that Arnoux won for Renault after a terrific scrap (wheel barging)
during the last few laps - dangerous stuff.
|
837.184 | absolutely right ! | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Feb 14 1990 13:25 | 6 |
| Very good memory ! You're right : 1974 was French GP. Swiss GP's
were non championship events (Jarier never won a Championship GP).
1979 French GP : Jabouille/Renault won. 2nd was Villeneuve/Ferrari,
3rd Arnoux/Renault. The last few laps will remain a collector piece.
I have it on tape.
|
837.185 | Clear as Mud! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Wed Feb 14 1990 15:10 | 16 |
| For those with a craving for the information, this week's Autosport
has an explanation of the structure of the FIA together with an
organisation chart. There are an awful lot of TLAs and one in
particular crops up in all the key places no prizes for guessing
- JMB.
Other bits about Prost being fastest at Estoril and mega accidents
for Boutsen and Larini. There are also strong rumours that the Porsche
V12 will be running by Suzuka.
Also - J-P van Rossem has been slagging off JMB in the Belgian press,
with particular reference to his war record! Autosport reckons it
can't publish because of English law, but as they were published
in the French press maybe Patrick could give us the low-down?
Paul
|
837.186 | 446 is where it all happens! | CURRNT::SAXBY | Digital? Yeah I worked there ONCE! | Wed Feb 14 1990 15:24 | 4 |
|
Paul, check out not 446. It's all being discussed in there.
Mark
|
837.187 | Are Mclaren short of a driver???? | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Wed Feb 14 1990 17:08 | 7 |
| QUESTION:
Does anybody know if Senna has bowed and scraped to fisa or is
he driving in cart this coming season.
Don't let him near a Kart I can't afford to keep buying new Karts and
parts.
|
837.188 | We'll know soon | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Wed Feb 14 1990 17:26 | 4 |
| Re .-1 Don't know but tomorrows the deadline. My guess is that
some lucky driver is going to get a plum seat.
-John
|
837.189 | Swiss GP lists | OASS::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Wed Feb 14 1990 18:18 | 28 |
| Here are the results from all the championship F1 races in 'Switzerland'.
As you can see the 1982 race was really in France, but if I remember
correctly, they called it the Swiss GP because at that time FISA wouldn't
let a country host more than 1 GP per year, expect for the US, Italy,
England.....
The winner is on the first line of each entry with the GP win number after
his name. The other point finishers follow on the next line. In the early
races only the top 5 scored points, along with 1 point for fastest lap.
Jun 4, 1950 Bremgarten, Switzerland Farina 2 Alfa Romeo 158
(Fagioli, Rosier, Bhanuban, Bonetto)
May 27, 1951 Bremgarten, Switzerland Fangio 4 Alfa Romeo 159
(Taruffi, Farina, Senesi, de Graffenried)
May 18, 1952 Bremgarten, Switzerland Taruffi 1 Ferrari 500F2
(Fischer, Behra, Wharton, Brown)
Aug 23, 1953 Bremgarten, Switzerland Ascari 13 Ferrari 500F2
(Villoresi, Gonzalez, Hawthorn, Galvez)
Aug 23, 1954 Bremgarten, Switzerland Fangio 12 Mercedes W196
(Gonzalez, Herrmann, Mieres, Montovani)
Aug 29, 1982 Dijon-Prenois, Switzerland Rosberg 1 Williams-Ford FW08/5
(Prost, Lauda, Piquet, Patrese, de Angelis)
|
837.190 | No news is ..... | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Fri Feb 16 1990 08:44 | 10 |
| Latest on the Will He? Won't He? Story.
On the radio this am McLaren were quoted as having no comment on
what Ayrton's upto, and will not make a statement until the launch
of the new car next week. Meanwhile the list of nominated drivers
is due out later today.
Can we bear the suspense!!!!
Paul
|
837.191 | no word? | MUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSY | Ayrton Senna has been..... | Fri Feb 16 1990 15:50 | 1 |
|
|
837.192 | Now, back to racing | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Mon Feb 19 1990 09:18 | 14 |
| My my, we are all quiet about Friday's debacle aren't we! Could
it be that some of us fair minded people are sulking that Ayrton
will be racing after all :-)
Anyway, who else read the letters? Does anybody really call Senna's
an apology? Looked more like a statement of fact to me. I thought
JMB's "best wishes for 1990 etc etc" was a bit tecno yawn inducing
tho'.
Still, at least we can now get down to real racing. Three weeks
today you'll be analysing the US GP. Anybody know if I can get into
Notes from DEC Phoenix so I can join in? Gloat, gloat!!
Paul
|
837.193 | Has Senna seen the light? | CURRNT::SAXBY | Digital? Yeah I worked there ONCE! | Mon Feb 19 1990 10:12 | 15 |
|
Ah, I deleted the note I had put in because I've just read VNS and
that gave the content of Senna's letter.
Certainly, by comparison with the ACOs enforced bowing and scraping
Senna got off lightly, but he had to swallow a large amount of his
prodigous pride to say he was wrong. Maybe this is the new side
of Senna, a bit more prepared to give and take than blithely carry
on like a bull in a china shop.
Hopefully, this more level headed approach will be seen in Senna's
driving and we'll see more of his talent this year than of his
aggression.
Mark
|
837.194 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Mon Feb 19 1990 12:09 | 10 |
| I, for one, didn't hear anything on Friday. Saturday's paper
said that initially FISA announced that no application had been
received from Senna, but that after some hectic discussions the
existance of the letter transpired.
Anyway the outcome is that Senna gets his license and also the
six months suspended ban has been lifted. As someone else said
it's time to get back to the racing.
-John
|
837.195 | Better late than never. | CURRNT::JENKINS_R | | Mon Feb 19 1990 15:51 | 9 |
|
I read on CEEFAX at the weekend that Senna's apology was so late that
FISA had already issued the competitors list without his name.
They had to re-issue the list after his apology arrived.
Let's hope this marks the end of the bickering and the start of the
racing.
|
837.196 | | ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSY | Oliver Wendell Home Boy STUD | Mon Feb 19 1990 17:29 | 21 |
| Getting back to the racing, but not leaving the subject of Senna,
his on-track behavior this year will see an entirely different context.
The past two years the only guy who had the speed to challenge him,
Prost, was the kind of driver to avoid contact at all cost (until
Suzuka, anyway).
This year I think Senna's speed advantage will be diminished; and
his teammate is much more combative. So, we've got a scenario where
for the first time since he joined McLaren Senna'll have people
attempting to drive alongside him, maybe even pass him.
It'll be interesting to see how he reacts. If he reacts like he
did during those infrequent times Prost challenged him, my money
sez his 6 month suspended ban will be enforced, and he will indeed
end up being banned - but for what he does not what he says...
Btw, I don't agree with the analogy between Senna and Villeneuve.
Villeneuve drove very hard, but I never saw him drive dirty.
MrT
|
837.197 | Thoughts | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Mon Feb 19 1990 17:56 | 18 |
| Senna's six month suspended ban is reported as being lifted,
so he's unlikely to suddenly get the boot.
For 4 of Senna's six years he wasn't adopting dubious on track
tactics. Finding that being pushy, or more likely over pushy,
as regards manouvres paid dividends in beating Prost (who I've no
doubt is just as quick) he's been capitalising on this 'advantage'.
Unfortunately FISA/The track officials etc. didn't act and let it
get out of hand to an extent� that a mighty 'stand' seemed
necessary. Hopefully things will be more controlled now.
McLarens dominance was fading somewhat towards the end of last
season and the gap must surely narrow. Roll on the first race,
Senna may have more than Berger to contend with.
-John
� Doubtless aided by the fact the main opponent was French though.
|
837.198 | Senna's not so bad. | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Mon Feb 19 1990 20:15 | 29 |
| Yes, the original list published Friday lunchtime, had the name of Dr. Jonathon
Palmer alongside Berger. McLaren and Marlboro showed this to Senna - who
up until then had decided to call FISA's bluff, did some frantic working behind
the scenes (Senna was thinking about pulling out of Formula 1 all together),
and got things sorted out in the afternoon - after which a new list was issued.
On the subject of Senna, my view of him falls between the two opposing camps.
He is a tremendously quick driver, about that there is no doubt, and very
confident in himself. I believe that, over the past two seasons, he has become
so confident in his own abilities (and immortality), that there is no doubt
in his mind that he is the best driver in the world. For this reason
- self-confidence which transgresses anything that you or I can understand, he
tries manoeuvres which other drivers would not make themselves - and in fact
regard as dangerous. I do not think that he is implictly "dirty" - though the
results can be the same.
I hope that Senna can be brought back to earth, so to speak, because without
him Formula 1 is much poorer - he is great to watch, and a tremendous
competitor!
I hope that the McHonda advantage has been reduced - wouldn't it be greate
to see 3 or 4 teams competing on nearly equal terms (OK then - 2 would be an
improvement!).
I think that Berger will be nearly as quick as Senna on occasion; however he
will never be very successful, because he is too hard on his cars. I think
that he will make an excellent number 2 however.
Steve
|
837.199 | Watch for the foot in mouth | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Tue Feb 20 1990 08:47 | 19 |
| From today's papers & last night's Ceefax.....
McLaren have cancelled the press launch of their new car after JMB
made veiled threats about "watching what Senna says". Seems Chairman
Ron is being tactful for once. However, it does seem a bit 1984ish.
Interestingly, Lendl is quoted this morning is saying that the new
ATP Tour is censoring him 'cos he's not allowed to comment on umpires'
decisions to the press! Plus ca change...... ;->
Anyway, its seems the other large gallic (I think) gentleman, Ms
Van Rossem is pulling out of F1 'cos of the Porsche thing. He stated
he hasn't paid for JJ & Stephan's Super Licences and had no intention
of putting anymore money into GP racing.
If this is true, can anybody remember who gets to avoid pre-qualifying?
Or were Onyx doing that anyway?
Paul
|
837.200 | | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | Oliver Wendell Homes Boy STUD! | Tue Feb 20 1990 15:50 | 17 |
| >self-confidence which transgresses anything that you or I can
>understand... he tries manoevres which other drivers would not
>make themselves... I do not think he is implicitly "dirty"
That's the rub on Senna. I think your description is partially
correct and otherwise very wrong: Senna's multiple car backmarker
passes, or going at full clip into rain spray are good examples of
where you're theory works; Senna chopping Prost to the right some
50 feet nearly into a wall at the beginning of a race, or squeezing
Berger off the course from behind at Rio is where the theory's wrong.
With the latter it isn't a matter of Senna having a better idea,
a higher understanding or more courage; it's a matter of him simply
trying to intimidate by dangerously flouting driving rules for ill-
gotten advantage.
MrT
|
837.201 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Wed Feb 21 1990 08:36 | 8 |
| Re: .-1
I guess you've got a point here - I was feeling particularly charitable
yesterday. However, I do think that F1 would be much poorer without him.
:-)
Steve
|
837.202 | Ayrhead, Rio & The Mysterious Shrinking Cavallino | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Wed Feb 21 1990 13:09 | 10 |
| I've been waiting (and hoping) that someone would bring up Rio.
As I recall, Berger said in a post-race interview: (paraphrase)
"Senna expects other drivers to get out of his way, but that doesn't
work with me." Another interesting driver pairing for McLaren.
Autoweek, after twice reporting that Ferrari has 740 hp for 1990,
now says it's actually 682 hp. So Ferrari has 2 good drivers, a
good chassis, and a 20-30 hp disadvantage, Deja vu.
Don
|
837.203 | | LEROUF::MERRICK | not another surrealist icon... | Thu Feb 22 1990 11:40 | 11 |
| This mornings L'Equipe has a photo of Senna in the new McLaren MP4/5B
testing at Silverstone. Tim Wright is quoted as saying that three cars
will be completed in time for Phoenix.
Prost has set the fastest times in the tyre testing at Estoril. He is
still using the 640, while Mansell is in the 641.
Finally, Bernie Ecclestone is supposed to be meeting J-P Van Rossem to
clarify whether Onyx will or will not race.
Ken
|
837.204 | First test, first crash
| FNYMV6::KEHILY | Almost... | Thu Feb 22 1990 12:53 | 7 |
| Yesterday's Independant reported that Senna crashed the MacLaren
during that test, and badly damaged the under body.
As you mean to go on ...
Graham
|
837.205 | OOOoooohhh Deeaaar | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Thu Feb 22 1990 13:16 | 0 |
837.206 | Seasons Winners | ULYSSE::FROST | | Thu Feb 22 1990 15:29 | 15 |
| Prognostications for 1990 season?
I hope that my sentiment is not getting in the way of clarity,
but I anticipate a 1,2,3,4 as follows:
1. Prost
2. Berger
3. Nannini
4. Mansell
George Frost
|
837.207 | Lay off Ayrton | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Feb 22 1990 15:53 | 41 |
| Re last few
I really think we are all getting a bit hard on Senna. The accident
at Silverstone was in a brand new car and according to Autosport
(who I'd believe in front of the Independent!) was caused by
instability due to new aerodynamics under the car.
As far as his belief in God is concerned, I may be mistaken but
I have not seen any articles where Senna talks about his faith
in the sort of detail quoted here. All the "unharmable" quotes seem
to come second hand. While not being a christian myself, I do know
that people of that persuasion believe that someone is watching
over them and that if anything happens to them they inherit the
life eternal. That could be interpreted by people who are less than
charitable in the way Senna has been painted.
Accident prone? Yes he has had a few scrapes, but so has Berger
and one person's Senna at Suzuka is another person's Mansell in
Hungary (where Senna was nearly up the back of Johansson with nowhere
to go). None of us has driven an F1 car in a race. The tolerances
are fine in the extreme and accidents are bound to happen between
two committed chargers. I don't think we are *really* qualified
to comment on Senna's driving ability.
What is clear from JMBs latest is that he has a real thing against
Senna and McLaren, and I hope he gets his chain pulled by the next
plenary meeting.
Anyway, after that little lot, I'm really looking forward to flying
out to Phoenix. I know the circuit is a bit naff, but its good that
the real stuff will be starting again soon. As I said a few notes
ago, my support will be for Leyton House and Lotus, but I realise
they aren't serious prospects for a win so out of the front 4 I
will be cheering for Senna despite my love of Ferrari's. Mansell
whinges too much (maybe its just the accent ;-) ) and I never have
liked Le Prof too much.
My joint entry for Mr Dawson's competition (with my wife) will be
on its way next week.
Paul
|
837.208 | In more detail | VANILA::LINCOLN | Reality is not what it seems | Thu Feb 22 1990 17:33 | 6 |
| My reference in .205 doesn't have anything to do with Senna,
far more serious than that. If the new car misbehaves in a
bad way then that is important. McLaren could always use the
old one though.
-John (who thinks cars are far more significant than drivers)
|
837.209 | | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | Stop Roger Penske, JMB, Bernie... | Thu Feb 22 1990 19:53 | 25 |
| re: Frost's prediction
WOW !! No Senna in the top four?! You know something we don't?!
re: Senna
He *does* make it more entertaining, and it would've been a crime
not to've had him in the series this year. Woulda cheapened whatever
happened. Hopefully he'll shut up and fly right and be a well-behaved
egomaniac like his colleauges.
Also, is it true that his probabation (i.e., "suspended ban") is
indeed still in effect? That's important, given that he's back
to badmouthing JMB in the press this week...
My call for this year: 1. Senna
2. Mansell
3. Prost
4. Berger
5. Patrese
6. Nannini
I'm not saying I like it, but I wanna win the prize...
MrT
|
837.210 | That big-o'-me! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Tue Feb 27 1990 09:07 | 40 |
| RE: Note 837.207 YUPPY::PATEMAN
> My joint entry for Mr Dawson's competition (with my wife) will be
> on its way next week.
But I've already got a wife ; what would I need with another?! Thanks,
but I'll stick with the F1 entry :-)
> As far as his belief in God is concerned, I may be mistaken but
> I have not seen any articles where Senna talks about his faith
> in the sort of detail quoted here. All the "unharmable" quotes seem
> to come second hand. While not being a christian myself, I do know
> that people of that persuasion believe that someone is watching
> over them and that if anything happens to them they inherit the
> life eternal. That could be interpreted by people who are less than
> charitable in the way Senna has been painted.
There was an interview in MN a while ago about Senna and this belief of
his. The guy is truly dedicated and seems to spend most of the time
when not in a racing car with a bible in his hand. This "peace within
himself" allows him to concentrate to such a degree, particularly in
qualifying, that he can actually "project" his thinking 0.1s ahead of
the car (ie he can start to correct a situation as it is starting
rather than after it has developed. This accounts for his banzai
qualifying laps. He admits it is much more difficult to achieve in a
race but he has ABSOLUTE conviction about his ability and capability
and an ABSOUTE desire to WIN (not just finish a good "tactical" second
as Prost is willing to do) that borders upon fanaticism.
BTW, Mansell reckons Ferrari have put in an excellent engineering
effort (particularly on the engine) over the winter and that they will
exceed 700bhp by August. I don't know how this compares with the Honda
but the feeling seems to be that they are a lot closer at the start of
this season than they were at the start of last season and that can
only be good!
Colin
|
837.211 | Sport Auto interview (in french) | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Feb 27 1990 11:12 | 7 |
| I have read a long interview of Senna at home (his, near Sao Paulo)
this winter (in Sport Auto). The guy talks a lot about his family,
parents, nephews, his new farm, his new appartment, ... for a few
pages with photos, ... Only at the end of the article the reporter
switches to racing for a while. Then (that's the only place he
mentions it) Senna says something like : before I sit in the car for
a race or a qualifying session I read a few pages of the Bible.
|
837.212 | Give the guy a break!! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Tue Feb 27 1990 11:44 | 43 |
| re last two
Just to clarify my position - I have no issue with Senna's on the
record statements about his beliefs, they are fairly widely documented.
What I haven't seen in print anywhere is the "I am invincible -
cannot be killed" stuff. I've only seen that from Prost and Mansell
who of course have a vested interest in making Senna look at odds
with the world.
I also read an interview about his qualifying laps and placing his
mind in front of the car, but don't remember anything about this
being due to God. He stated in the interview I read that it was
impossible to do this in a race because there was so much else going
on. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing him on a hot one in
Phoenix.
As for always winning, well, I'd be surprised if many sports people
at the very top don't go into competition convinced they are going
to win. Thats why we haven't had any British winners recently in
most sports ;->
To me, the comments from Our Nige about settling for second and
points rather than going for a win indicate a lessening of commitment,
but then I've always liked chargers like Peterson, Villeneuve etc,
rather than accountants like Piquet!
However, Senna could do with lightening up a little, my wife is
sending him a thirtieth birthday card and while we were looking
around for one we saw a driving test card as follows:
Front - Glad to hear you've got your licence
Inside - That means one more nut on the road.
We did wonder what his reaction would have been!
Still, I reckon he'll win the championship this year and around
5 or 6 races in the process.
12 days and counting!!
Paul
|
837.213 | DECsell Winter issue | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Feb 27 1990 13:33 | 11 |
| Just received latest issue of DECsell magazine. Page 3 is a list
of the major competitive wins in european countries. Under Belgium
I found something like :
Company Order Segment Competition Sales rep
------------------------------------------------------------------
Moneytron 150K$ Econometrics SUN Sparcstation xxxxxx
Now I wish someone from Belgium tell us more about Moneytron. In
case they dont drop Onyx this year, maybe we could have some insight
into the team ...
|
837.214 | Prequalifying in 8 days! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Wed Feb 28 1990 13:50 | 32 |
| This week's titbits:
Alex Caffi will miss the first two races due to a cycling accident,
possible replacements Brundle & Schneider
Estoril Testing Times (Senna's '89 pole - 1:15.47)
Mansell (F641) 1:13.88
Prost (F640) 1:14.52
Patrese 1:15.00
Boutsen 1:15.04
Piquet 1:17.39
Caffi 1:17.44
Alboreto 1:17.46
Warwick 1:18.12
Nannini 1:18.29
Donnelly 1:22.44
The new McLaren MP4/5B is taller than last years due to new regs
and Gerhard's legs! Also has taller air box, narrower sidepods,
longer rear undertray (Patrick Head is quoted as saying Williams
get 35% of their downforce from the undertray!) with 5 arches.
They have also indicated that they will be running a *new* prototype
for the V12. Is this the end of the line for the MP4?
Looks bleak for Brabham. Still no buyers because of the legal bits
pending.
Thats the lot.
Paul
|
837.215 | | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | 1066,1215,1789,1848,1917,1989 | Wed Feb 28 1990 17:21 | 31 |
| I thought Ferrari was already reporting well over 700 horses?
Different state of tune?
I also thought there'd be NO prequalifying this year, a bit of good
news if true.
As an American, my bullsheet antennae go out when someone starts
bragging to the media about how being very holy; maybe cuz it's
a common practice of politicians, crooks awaiting sentencing and,
yes, successful athletes.
Whatever Senna's proclivities, the linkage he insists be drawn between
his theism and his responsibilities as a driver are worrying - and
so is his driving. When he starts talking about his special
relationship with God I'm reminded of the flap here when it was
found that President Reagan was sitting down each weekend with a
number of television preachers and talking enthusiastically about
one could interpret the Bible's scenario for Rapture in terms of
the mideast conflict and nuclear war... :^)
As for other drivers being crash prone, well, two of Berger's crashes
don't really count. One had to do with a part breaking (Imola), the
other with Senna crashing into him from behind (Rio).
On the feiry Imola crash, Mansell criticized Berger a bit for giving
up too early. Apparently Berger told his team that when he lost
control he "got very small" in the cockpit (doubled over). Mansell
hinted that had he fought the car into a slide or spin the crash
might well have not been so serious.
MrT
|
837.216 | ex | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Thu Mar 01 1990 08:07 | 57 |
| re .212
Paul, I don't think Mansell's comment about finishing second when the
situation "requires" it is a loss of motivation - rather a clear,
well-reasoned out strategy for winnning the CHAMPIONSHIP rather than
just the race. Others, besides himself and Prost, have used this tactic
to great effect in the past and it marks the emergence of a "great"
rather than just a "good" driver. Senna has an incredible natural flair
but his lack of this type of approach indicates an overall
inconsistency in his tactics. You cannot control every event purely by
your own talent - there has to be an element of "luck" in it as well.
This is partly reflected in such things as mechanical failures
unrelated to the driver or his style and partly through the driver
"pushing" the car too hard or being in a situation which puts up the
odds against him. Mansell and Prost are using the "softly softly"
approach while Senna will continue to go balls out. Both approaches
have their merits and disadvantages - two years ago, Senna's won him
the title but last year it lost him it. There is no doubt, however,
that to win you must first finish and to win the championship you must
at least score in the minimum 11 rounds (or else win 9 races).
I'm going to change my prediction this year as I feel Mansell has
his best (and last?) chance and will grab it with both hands.
Re -1, Mr T, I read recently that Honda are reputedly starting the
season with 670bhp so the Ferrari sounds as if it is up there, too. In
contrast, Arrows will start the season with Cosworth Harts (until the
Porsches come along) which are expected to give 620/625bhp!
Latest news is that Onyx are still evaluating various sales options
but no decision yet made. Van Rossem continues to hold 60% interest in
the cars and Marlborough's support will almost certainly allow the team
to compete in Phoenix. Brabham, meanwhile, are close to agreement on
a deal between Middlebridge (the interested buyer), Peter Windsor (who
thought he had previously gained control of the company and has brought
litigation against it) and Bent Widmer (acting on behalf of the Swiss
banking Corporation and MRD owner Joachim Leuthi, still languishing in
a Swiss jail!).
EuroBrum will stick with Judd power as the Neotech V12 will not be
ready for the early GPs.
The same 8 teams as last year will carry TV cameras on board -
McLaren, Ferrari, Williams, Benetton, Lotus, March, Brabham and Arrows
- but each car will carry both a forward and rearward facing camera and
two teams will carry them at each race. Williams will carry them at
Phoenix, Monaco, Ricard and Adelaide but the rest of the allocation has
yet to be decided.
Senna damages the new MP4/B5 at Silverstone earlier in the week
while shaking it down and giving himself the first run in a F1 car
since last November!!
As previously stated, Mansell and Prost topped the lists at
Goodyear tyre tests at Estoril last week. McLaren were not there.
Colin
|
837.217 | Glad we're all different | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Mar 01 1990 11:53 | 21 |
| Colin,
I guess we'll agree to differ. My preference would be for the old
go for it Mansell rather than an accountant hunting the championship.
It will be interesting to see if he sticks with it in the heat of
battle.
My personal "greats" (as I said) are of the balls out variety, but
I can see why others prefer the softly softly brigade. It would
be boring if we all supported the same drivers.
I see on Vogon that Pirro is out for the first race too after getting
hepatitis being replaced by Morbidelli(?) and that Brundle is favourite
to fill Caffi's seat.
As far as Mansell and the title is concerned, I think it might be
like Lendl & Wimbledon, something he's destined not to win. I hope
to be proved wrong, but my vote goes for the Brazilian Bruiser.
Paul
|
837.218 | Tyrell's future greatness . . . | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Thu Mar 01 1990 12:51 | 11 |
| Sergio Rinland going to Tyrell gives that team a very fine engineering
staff. Postlethwaite needs no intro. Rinland has designed at least 2
very good cars -- the one Dallara has run for two seasons and the most
recent Brabham. Add the Honda V-10 and Alesi and there's a hope for
next year.
Anyone know why Ferrari continues to run the 640? The 641 seems
significantly faster. Or did the 641's times come on quallies vs
race rubber?
Don
|
837.219 | A comparison | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Thu Mar 01 1990 13:14 | 30 |
| Speed can be deceptive. I well remember watching at Stowe
Corner, Silverstone a British Grand Prix and noticing in
particular the difference in style between Prost and Senna.
This was when Senna was in the Lotus. He looked incredibly
fast around this corner, even applying throttle at the apex
to increase exit speed, and taking a very aggressive line.
Prost in comparison was drifting around without fuss or
effort. They were effectively equally matched for speed
despite the differing styles. The Lotus also was as quick
as the McLaren on this fast circuit, and if I remember
correctly pole went in any case to Rosberg's Williams.
In the race Senna grabbed the lead, disputed by Rosberg until
his car failed. From then on it was Prost in pursuit, coming
back from half a lap down to sit on Senna's tail, but Senna
wouldn't let him past. Eventually Senna ran out of fuel with
a lap to go.
This seems to sum it up, Senna would not give away the lead
and settle for second, Prost was going just as fast as his
fuel would let him, and also probably got more from it on
account his smoother style. Senna looked quickest but Prost
was quickest.
It would however have been a dull race if it hadn't been for
these 'finer points' or if Senna had just been going for a
place. Room for both types I fancy.
-John
|
837.220 | opening the throttle ? sure ! | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Thu Mar 01 1990 18:44 | 9 |
| John,
what's wrong with opening the throttle at the apex point ? In slow,
medium and fast curves you actually open the throttle.
turbo engines were a little bit tricky to handle and each driver
had his particular touch.
Cheers, Patrick
|
837.221 | Softly, softly little monkey | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Fri Mar 02 1990 07:53 | 13 |
| Well, I'm going to change my prediction for this year - I think Mansell
will do the honours - brains over superchump?! If any of you guys out
there want to put a tenner where your opinions are join the F1
prediction competition and you might win yourself �100!! (but only if
you're right!).
I also think -2 is absolutely right - for "softly softly" don't read
"just not trying anymore" - it's more a question of don't put the car
off the road by trying TOO hard, drive a more tactical race rather than
balls out ALL the time, wait for opportunities to show in the early
stages and, if they don't, THEN make them. C'est la difference!
Colin
|
837.222 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Fri Mar 02 1990 12:25 | 10 |
| Softly, softly? The last time Mansell went racing was at Adelaide - he drove
like a man possessed! If he'd used his brain there the he would have won
easily!
Steve
P.S. I do think that Mansell is the best overall driver - perhaps not the best
in any individual department (speed, finesse, courage, race-craft etc. etc.)
- but overall is the best. I wonder if he's going to end up like Stirling Moss;
well respected - but never with a title to show for it...?
|
837.223 | Nigel Roebuck makes book on F1 '90 | MUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSY | Plato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnight | Fri Mar 02 1990 15:21 | 44 |
| Here's Nigel Roebuck's predictions for 90, taken from the Feb 26
Autoweek:
************************************************************************
Senna 3-1 Quickest, if not the most composed; has Honda
Prost 5-1 Technically best, but will Ferrari have power?
Berger 7-1 Another McLaren race winner, still a little rough
Mansell 8-1 Probably as quick as Sena, but new pressures
Patrese 10-1 Not an absolute ace, but always thereabouts
Piquet 12-1 Talents still there, but is motivation?
Boutsen 20-1 Consistent, smooth, but has he the raw pace?
Nannini 20-1 Old-fashioned racer, not quite from the top flight
Warwick 20-1 Still motivated, still highly underrated
Alesi 20-1 Tomorrow's superstar; needs more than a Cosworth
**************************************************************************
Now, I'm kinda shocked at his rating Prost SO much better than Mansell.
Also, he apparently has a high opinion of Benetton's car if he has
Piquet so high. Personally I like Donnelly better than Warwick
in the Lotus-Lambo.
Also, he doesn't seem to think much of Larousse's chances, but aren't
they running a Lambo too? What *is* the diff, if any, between the
Lambos in Lotus vs Larousse?
True poor Pierluigi Martini is stuck for the year with a DFR Cosworth,
but Bernard has a Lambo and a decent team. I like him, and from
what I hear Suzuki, once settled, will establish himself as the
first good Japanese driver. I'm glad to see Lehto up, and I think
Grouillard deserved a better ride...
MrT
|
837.224 | I'm going to go for Mansell! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Mon Mar 05 1990 09:02 | 7 |
| Well, I'm going to change my competition prediction and go for Mansell
this year! If he doesn't get the title very soon I think he's going to
be off. He is more motivated than ever to achieve it and with Prost as
his teammate I think Ferrari have their best chance for many years to
knock Senna and McLaren off their cosy little pedestal. I hope so!
Colin
|
837.225 | new rules | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Mar 05 1990 10:16 | 17 |
| The 1990 championship rules have been published. Apart from the
expected changes (minimum size, weight, ...) the pre-qualification
system now includes the 34 car limit :
- 26 cars can race
- 26 cars are invited to compete (based on previous year results)
- if less than 34 but more than 30 cars present for the GP, the 1st
practice session (morning of the 1st day) will be used to reduce the
number of competitors to 30 (only 30 cars can be on the track at
any time)
- if 34 cars or more show up for the GP then the 1989 system will
be used : 1 hour of pre-qualifications between 8 and 9am on the
1st day. The potential runners are : Coloni (1), Osella (1), Eurobrun
(2), Espo-Larrousse (2), Life (1).
Please note that the 1st two GP's will see less than 34 cars (Brabham
will only appear at Imola, Life ?)
|
837.226 | Brabham, Onyx etc. | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon Mar 05 1990 12:08 | 20 |
| According to reports in the press at the weekend the Brabham
team has been 'saved' ie bought out. The new owner is a Japanese
company called Middlebridge (I think).
One report said that this was independant of Onyx, the later
said that Onyx too has been bought by the same company and that
the two will be merged (perhaps). The architect of the deal was
Bernie Ecclestone.
There will be no 'Brabhams' at the first too races, but there
will be 3 'Onyxes'.
Re. .220.
Patrick,
Where do I say that there was anything wrong with opening the
throttle in a corner?.
-John
|
837.227 | News etc. | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Wed Mar 07 1990 13:04 | 32 |
| Got a copy of Motoring News today to read the F1 preview. Every
time I get a MN it seems to have less content and a higher price.
Anyway they say (but aren't terribly sure) that the Brabham/Onyx
merger has failed after all. They also say that two Brabhams were
rushed off to Pheonix yesterday which suggests that the merger is
definitely off. Teams are fined heavily for failing to compete, but
if there was to be a merger then the Onyx cars would have sufficed
but now it looks as if Brabham are intent on continuing.
Pirro has hepatitus and will miss first two races. The new Lambo
engine has serious oil problems and is failing badly both in the
Lotus and the Lola. Tyrell have switched to Pirelli tyres after
nearly 20 years on Goodyear.
I think 90 is going to be a very close contest between the top
teams ie. McLaren, Ferrari and Williams. Benetton must be next in
the pecking order, one hopes Lotus will come good and wonders
whether Tyrell and Minardi might prosper on demon Pirellis.
Anyway I'm going to go for Williams coming out on top in the end,
thanks to their speed and consistency whilst the McLarens/Ferraris
are tripping over each other.
1. Patrese
2. Senna
3. Prost
4. Boutsen
5. Mansell
6. Berger
-John
|
837.228 | | MUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSY | Ferrari beats McHonda in '90!! | Thu Mar 08 1990 20:22 | 5 |
| Too bad about the problems with the lambos, hope it's a minor glitch
and not a fundamental design flaw cuz the field needs Lotus and
Larousse to be fast to keep the fast part of the field deep.
MrT
|
837.229 | info please | DEBIT::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Fri Mar 09 1990 00:08 | 7 |
| Would a kind soul keep us posted on what is going on? I'm in the US,
which means that Phoenix will be shown only to those who have cable TV,
and at that, a taped version....
Thanks,
JP
|
837.230 | wot - not live!! | MOVIES::BLAKE | CTERMinator | Fri Mar 09 1990 13:33 | 5 |
| It appears that the BBC are NOT showing the race live on Sunday. Is it on
SKY does anyone know? If so, are there any bars etc around here with TVs
(American style) that show SKY?
Colin.
|
837.231 | Silverstone Prices | MOVIES::BLAKE | CTERMinator | Fri Mar 09 1990 16:51 | 20 |
| Prices for the British GP this year are (Sunday only):
Entrance
--------
Adults: �33
Children: �5
Three categories of grandstand seats remain at Stow (these are the only
seats remaining and you'll have to be quick). These prices include
entrance:
A E,F
Adults: �70 �65
Children: �40 �35
Car parking is free. The �33 entrance fee is if you buy your tickets in
advance (call the circuit on 0327 857273 and quote your credit card
number). Prices on the day will probably be �38.
Colin.
|
837.233 | Detroit - or was it Phoenix? | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Mon Mar 12 1990 17:09 | 36 |
| Simpson's Phoenix awards:
Star of the day:
Brabham and Modena for an outstanding fifth place - from mothballs to a
strong finish in 4 days. My only hope is that they are NOT rewarded with
the threatened Yamaha engine - they need it like a hole in the head.
For services rather less than the call of duty:
Senna's refusal to shake Prost's hand and bury the hatchet. I thought, that at
the very least, he would have turned the other cheek :-)
For drives:
Alesi and Senna - superb. Maybe Gerhard can pick up a few tips on how to
stay away from kerbs and barriers?
For cheek:
Alesi retaking Senna immediately after being passed - credit to Senna for
not "chopping".
For spectacle:
Mansell's fiery exit - beautifully controlled spin; leaving just enough forward
momentum to roll gracefully off the course.
For illiteracy:
ESPN or Sky channel (not sure which). "Wiliams" and "Tyrell" prominently
displayed on the start grid line up.
|
837.234 | Dreary | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Tue Mar 13 1990 12:36 | 26 |
| I've always found the fist race of the season the most
interesting, to see how things have changed after a winters
development.
However, this year was different. What an absolutely, bloody
awful circuit Phoenix is. No wonder nobody bothered to go there.
There are good, indeed very good, circuits in the US, but F1
always has to go to some concrete horror.
Only real interest was the emergence of Pirelli tyres as something
other than an embarassment to their users and the confirmation of
Alesi as a top rank driver.
If you thought Ferrari did badly look at Lotus. Outqualified by
Lola, one failed to even get started and the other petered out
in no time.
BBC tele coverage was duff too.
-John
PS. Mansell did not neatly park off the circuit, quite the contrary.
The car was off the circuit but he brought it back on and left it
there, quite close to the racing line too.
|
837.235 | | SUBURB::PARKER | | Tue Mar 13 1990 12:45 | 4 |
| Is the fist race the one where somebody bops somebody for carving
them up?
Steve
|
837.236 | Next years race will at the MacDonalds multi-storey | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Studying fluid dynamics, from a stein | Tue Mar 13 1990 13:00 | 15 |
|
Well I saw Phoenix live, with English/Dutch/English/Dutch commentary !
courtesy of Eurosport. I must agree the circuit is bloody awfull, I
don't see why they can't race at a 'proper' circuit if they can't
find a suitable street one.
It looked pretty much like a race of attrition more than anything else.
I did enjoy Alesi's re-taking manouvre on Senna though, very cheeky !
Re. Mansell. I don't think he had a lot to do with the way the car
spun or parked after his engine blew. With that amount of oil being
chucked onto your rear wheels at that speed it's up to fate rather
than the driver.
Gordon
|
837.237 | Phoenix on TF1 | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Mar 13 1990 14:46 | 19 |
| TF1 are improving their coverage. They still have their mobile reporter
who runs from one team to the other to find out what's going on.
This time he went to the Ferrari team and looked over the shoulder
of the "computer" man : nothing wrong with Prost's car (smoking
badly) oil pressure OK both in the engine and in the box, until
.... no gearchange.
Then he grabbed Alain who said : from the beginning the gearchange
was lousy and slow. And it became slower and slower until nothing
happened. Apparently Nigel's problem was not with the gearbox but
with the engine.
After the Foitek crash (Brabham lost in the middle of a straight)
followed by Grouillard's stop the same reporter managed to get Olivier
and the dialog was something like : what's wrong ? nothing until
Foitek hit me. No other details. I dont want to draw early conclusions
but if you remember the catastrophic 1988 F3000 season (especially
at the Brands Hatch race) Foitek was involved in all (or most ?)
accidents. He may not have lost his bad habits ....
|
837.238 | long live the Prince | BONNET::HARDY | | Tue Mar 13 1990 15:55 | 6 |
| TF1 missed the start of the race by about 10 minutes and so showed the
whole thing on a 10 minute later action replay.
TMC had it live!
Peter
|
837.239 | How can that be so | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Tue Mar 13 1990 17:02 | 7 |
| Just a quick point , that track to my mind is a) bloody awful, b)
bloody dangerous ( no run off areas, no room for mistakes). All in all
the whole lot circuit is hazard. How can Fisa say thats ok and Le Mans
in dangerous when its got run off areas and better than that its not
enclosed in concrete. That must be safer for the driver. It would scare
me witless seeing that wall coming up at any speed.
|
837.240 | | MUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSY | Ayrton Senna MUST be stopped!! | Wed Mar 14 1990 22:07 | 34 |
| America has, oh, maybe a dozen great road courses that could be
used, but none of them are willing to give Bernie his obligatory
millions dollar bribe; you need a city bureaucrat to do that, ergo,
a street course.
I'm not that depressed about Ferrari, this and Monaco are the worst
for them, and they showed rather well in the speed department despite
being unable to program the new direct change gearbox. But why
oh why are the red cars so damned unreliable? Is it forcing all
those shifts using the old semiauto?
I'm a bit let down by Williams laggardly showing. I'd also hoped
that maybe Benneton, somebody, ANYBODY, would step up to challenge
McHonda this year. It doesn't look like that'll be.
Let's look at the bottom line:
Pole: McHonda
Fastest lap(s): McHonda
Victory: McHonda
Sound familiar? And the way Berger was charging after his crash
one wonders whether he'd have caught Alesi before the old Gerhard
came out and he needlessly crashed solo on an uncomplicated 90 degree
left hander.
I think Alesi will do a lot this year, but that means seeing how
many times he can finish 3rd, maybe even 2nd.
DeCeaseris' new etiquette was impressive. When his tires started
to go he did a nice job of letting the fast traffic through without
incident.
MrT
|
837.241 | It was better live. | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Tue Mar 20 1990 12:47 | 57 |
| View from the Track Side
------------------------
Having sat in the grandstand at Phoenix I can assure you that the
circuit *is* less than inspiring. However, the sound of the V8/V10/V12s
charging round the streets is quite awe inspiring. As for the crowd,
they were plentiful in the grandstands and very knowledgable about
F1. They were not however from Phoenix! There were loadsa Americans
from everywhere but Phoenix, loadsa Japs, a fair few europeans and
quite a few Brits. Local TV in Phoenix did a good job promoting
the race but as we toured round the rest of Arizona/New Mexico there
was virtually nothing. Also the national channels said nothing about
the race. It did clash with the big college basketball tournament
tho'.
We watched the tape delay coverage on ESPN in the evening and it
was dreadful! It was good to get back to Murray! BTW we bumped into
the great man in the pit lane and got an autograph, he confirmed
that he'd bumped into a lot of Brits. The ESPN coverage was mock
live so each time you came back after the interminable ad breaks
the race had gone on by a few laps. The in car was good tho'.
As for the action - Alesi was electrifying, seeing him come back
into the start/finish section on the end of lap 1 left every body
cheering. However, Senna's reeling in of him was equally relentless
and had a real inevitability about it. The others to impress were
Modena, Martini in practice, and Nakajap in the wet on Saturday.
We got into the Paddock Club on Friday, courtesy of Leyton House
and watched the practice from above the pits. The place was full
of hangers on but you got a great view. We also got a very relaxed
pit walkabout immmediately before the first practice session, much
more interesting than 7 am at Silverstone!
Just to prove they are human there were some laughs in the wet.
A huge puddle formed in the pit lane and was surrounded by
photographers looking for good shots. The Williams's and the Benettons
made great efforts to get this mob as wet as possible.
Anyway, I'd agree with Steve that most circuits in the US would
be better than Phoenix, and I see from Autosport that there is doubt
beyond next year because of lack of crowds. But street racing does
have a certain kick to it. I'd disagree with a few back about the
danger. The corners were well padded with tyres (ask Berger)
and there were run off areas (ask Warwick), plus the speeds are not
massive.
The main lesson though was that my entry into Mr Dawson's competition
had a major ommission in Alesi and Tyrell.
Roll on Brazil, and the Judd V10 for L/House in the summer.
Paul
PS - the Trans Am race was dire, all yellow lights, course cars
and stop go penalties. Nowhere near as much fun as the BTCC!
|
837.242 | tell me.... | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Tue Mar 20 1990 13:06 | 10 |
| >> Modena, Martini in practice, and Nakajap in the wet on Saturday.
^^^^^^^
who is this person?
i've been following F1 for a number of years & i've not heard of him/her
?
...art
|
837.243 | No Smiley?? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Tue Mar 20 1990 13:58 | 7 |
| Assuming you are serious.........
Saturo Nakajima, well known small Japanese type person who carries
lots of yen in sponsorship but still ends up lightest driver in
the weight stakes.
Paul
|
837.244 | Heard of satuuro nakajima | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Tue Mar 20 1990 14:05 | 3 |
| so your name for him was just racist/derogatory?
...art
|
837.245 | Lamborghini F1 in 1991 | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Mar 20 1990 14:19 | 14 |
| Lamborghini's president Emile Novaro has recently announced that
the company will enter a full F1 car next season. Originally the
daughter company, Lamborghini Engineering, announced that they were
building a F1 car for a wealthy Mexican. It now appears that Lambo
will run the challenge.
One of the complaints most heard about Lamborghini vs Ferrari is
that Lambo never raced. This is not true anymore (since last year
when Larrousse got the Lambo V12 engine).
There are speculations about "will Lamborghini support everybody
or only 2 teams in 1991 ?". Heini Mader is currently retooling his
workshop in Gland, Switzerland in order to offer engine maintenance
services to the Lambo users.
|
837.246 | new F1 engines | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Mar 20 1990 14:25 | 9 |
| The new Rocchi W12 engine has appeared in the LIFE RACING car driven
by Gary Brabham in Phoenix. Did not prequalify (best lap in over 2
minutes).
The Subaru-Coloni driven by Bertrand Gachot did not manage to get
pre-qulified either. Now, does anyone know which engine it used ?
I have read several reports with conflicting results. Was it the
traditional Cosworth or the Subaru-funded Motori Moderni (Carlo
Chiti designed) flat-12 ?
|
837.247 | British Humour? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Tue Mar 20 1990 16:13 | 15 |
| re .244
Neither. If you read what I said you will see that I rated his driving
highly in the rain. Also, he ran well in the race. The name is merely
meant as a joke. I seem to recall it being used many times in the
F1 topics around here.
I don't rate him particularly highly as a driver as he has been
foisted on teams by Honda, rather than got there by talent. Aguri
Suzuki looks a better bet, and performed very well in the Lola.
If it offends you in some way - sorry, but most of the abuse directed
at Senna offends me - but its called free speech.
Paul
|
837.248 | humour has nothing to do with it.... | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Tue Mar 20 1990 16:29 | 19 |
| >>
>> If it offends you in some way - sorry, but most of the abuse directed
>> at Senna offends me - but its called free speech.
comments about Senna were on his personality/driving style NOT the colour of
his skin nor his ethnic origins.
if Nakajima was black (or any other driver) how would you address him then?
Niggajima????
>>The name is merely meant as a joke.
I don't thing it's funny.
I hope you realise that not all dec employees are WASPs.
...art (who's not Japanese)
|
837.249 | I can't believe I'm reading this | DOOZER::JENKINS | Sitting in the hot seat... | Tue Mar 20 1990 20:00 | 7 |
|
Is "Jap" offensive? Racist? or just accurate?
|
837.250 | offensive, racist and against company policy | GIDDAY::GILLINGSNP | a crucible of informative mistakes | Tue Mar 20 1990 23:26 | 18 |
| re .249: "or just accurate?" I can't believe I read *that*.
Would it be "accurate" to make a joke about your name in which a
syllable was replaced with a derogatory term describing your nationality?
Company policy regarding racist or offensive remarks are quite clear. I
find the term "Jap" in most contexts to be both offensive and racist, and
quite clearly, so do some others in this conference. In this context, it is
particularly offensive as it is being used to make a derogatory joke about
the persons name. Therefore, whatever your own views, the term is offensive
by definition and should not be used in NOTES.
.248 is quite correct in pointing out that this persons nationality or
skin colour have nothing whatever to do with his driving ability. I would
add that neither do his religion, sexual preferences, political affiliation
or preferred colour of underwear. Stick to the subject and company policy
please!
John Gillings, Sydney CSC
|
837.251 | And NO mention of woodpiles please ! | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Studying fluid dynamics, from a stein | Wed Mar 21 1990 07:08 | 8 |
| For a moment there I thought the notes files had got mixed up and I'd
strayed into the backup file of EF90 !
Right, has every one got this out of their system ? Let's get back to
the topic in hand then and not raise the spectre of the F1 topic
becoming a rat hole on what is, or isn't racist.
Gordon ( A Brit. who just enjoys motor racing )
|
837.254 | Finish what you start.... | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Wed Mar 21 1990 09:05 | 30 |
| To try and close what I started.......
As I said Mr Atwal - apologies if it offended you, it was not meant
to offend anyone! I *do* object to being called racist for a very
mild joke however. Having friends of all colours, creeds, races,
religions *and* sexual preferences I feel the cap does not fit.
That's my last word on that particular subject.
On racing however, does anyone have any views out there on the
revisions to Silverstone for '91. It looks like someone has done
a good job of strangling it by adding the extra corners. From memory
these include tightening up Stowe, putting in a bus stop past Stowe
and revising the pre-Woodcote "complex" yet again. Looks like another
stop-go type circuit rather than a flowing design. Why can't designers
show some flair to create more circuits like Spa and the Ostereichring?
The cars are now far more drivable than in the point and shoot ground
effect & turbo days so why can't we have circuits that exploit them
rather than choke them.
What do we reckon for Brazil? On home territory I find it hard to
see Senna being beaten. Ferrari looked in dissarray at Phoenix and
haven't had time to sort things thoroughly, and on a faster track
the V8's won't be as much of a threat even with Pirellis. If Berger
sticks to the track though he could be a threat.
Comments?
Paul
|
837.255 | Liverpool! | PLAYER::KENNEDY_C | E=M3� | Wed Mar 21 1990 09:22 | 10 |
| Re.252
>> Derek the Ex-scouse
How can anybody be Ex-scouse?
^^
Once a scouser, always a scouser.
Colin, a scouser!
|
837.256 | I'd like to continue this rathole... | SHAPES::KERRELLD | SBP but mail still to @UCG | Wed Mar 21 1990 10:02 | 5 |
| I thought Jap was short for Japanese, like Brit is short for British.
I was not aware that Japanese or it's abreviations were offensive to
anyone. Can any Japanese out there shed some light on this?
Dave :-|
|
837.257 | | BRABAM::PHILPOTT | Col I F 'Tsingtao Dhum' Philpott | Wed Mar 21 1990 10:12 | 11 |
|
Brit is, when used by the British, a fairly light hearted appelation.
When used by a drunken American in a South Boston bar on St. Patrick's day it
is anything but friendly.
The safe approach to terms like these is to remember Cyranno's warning when
somebody commented on his nose: it is OK to use a term or expresssion about
yourself, but not about others...
/. Ian .\
|
837.258 | | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Wed Mar 21 1990 10:27 | 14 |
| >>I thought Jap was short for Japanese, like Brit is short for British.
OK, what do 'Brits' call the French ?
and the Germans... for short eh?
in the offending note, other drivers were mentioned by name but NOT nationality
perhaps Jap is short for Japanese, but the way the term was used was unneccasary
most F1 fans know that Nakajima is Japanese just like they know that Senna is
Brazilian... so why was Nakajima pointed out as being Japanese?
...art
|
837.259 | Me - I hate terms like WASP | DOOZER::JENKINS | Sitting in the hot seat... | Wed Mar 21 1990 10:44 | 12 |
|
Jap, Brit, Scot and others aren't offensive (at least not in the
way I use them), they're just abbreviations. These are not meant
as racist comments.
If .250 thinks that my use of these phrases makes me racist, then
I'll have to live with it.
|
837.260 | Okay. Yet another Brits view! | VANDAL::BARRON | Snoopy Vs Red_Barron | Wed Mar 21 1990 11:27 | 11 |
| >Note 837.258 F1 Motor Racing 1990 258 of 258
>most F1 fans know that Nakajima is Japanese just like they know that Senna is
>Brazilian... so why was Nakajima pointed out as being Japanese?
>...art
Perhaps the person did'nt know the J*P's name or perhaps unsure as to the
corectt speeling. :-)
What a load of horse. Can we get back on to the topic .....PLEASE
Dave
|
837.261 | Might I interrupt with some auto racing???? | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Wed Mar 21 1990 13:20 | 31 |
| Might I suggest -- in all sincerity -- that we start a new notes file
on Formula One auto racing?
Where does it end? I have a friend who tells me that the terms "lady"
and "Oriental" are highly insulting. What next? I'm ~half Polish,
~half Italian, with probably a little Sicilian, and perhaps a little
Jewish blood, too. I've been schooled in 2 religions and dabbled in
several others. I -- and most others human beings can find SOMETHING
offensive in almost ANYTHING ANYONE says.
While we're on this . . . I find it interesting there are so many
Italians in F1 today -- about 12 or 13 at last count. None of them
seem likely to match the best of the last wave of French drivers, and
now with Alesi and Bernard, there seems to be another bunch of good
Frenchmen on the way.
Before we got into the rodenthole, someone mentioned the Life W12. Any
more on that? And what is the status of the NeoTech V12 from Austria.
BRAZIL: At Ferrari's press conference in Feb, either Prost or Fiorio
said that Phoenix would not be a true indication of the 641's
potential. I'm looking forward to a good race at Rio.
Finally, the Ferrari auto trans. . . I wonder if they can successfully
implement a 7-speed standard. In order to achieve max hp, the team
consciously decided to make their engine extremely "peaky." Motorsport
reported that the power "band" was only 1000 rpm or less. I wonder if
that means that they can't simply swap out the automatic for a more
conventional transmission.
Don
|
837.262 | How long will Life live? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Wed Mar 21 1990 13:42 | 45 |
| Re Life
They seemed pretty shambolic in Phoenix. The car sounded awful and
stopped out on the track after about 4 laps. I feel for Gary Brabham,
he surely deserves better than this. They also appeared to have
little sponsorship, the car being mostly plain red.
Re Ferrari
I understand that one of the main aims over the winter has been
to reprogram the 'box to go down more than one gear at a time, but
I don't think they had that working in Phoenix, where it should
have been useful. Mansell always quotes Monaco as where it is useful
to go from 6th to 2nd or whatever.
Having said that, listening to the cars power away up the start
straight the Ferrari gear change was very fast in comparison to
most of the others. Berger commented out there that McHonda are
looking at semi-auto boxes. Both Ferrari's were smokey from lap
1 but after Berger at Estoril last year who knows :-)
I saw a comment in Vogon news that the new Mexican/Italian team
will have Lambo engines exclusively next year, anybody got any
confirmation? I'd be surprised if Lotus with their GM links would
be dropped so soon.
BTW have you noticed how there don't seem to be any McLaren supporters
at races? Ferrari, Williams, Lotus, Leyton House - even Ligier have
fans who support them regardless of who's in the cockpit. In the
case of McLaren it seems to be the drivers who get the support.
Maybe the team is a bit faceless after all these years of looking
like a Marlboro box. Lotus always seemed to still be Lotus even
in the JPS days. It did grate when an American in the Phoenix stand
referred to "the Camel car" tho' :-(
As for all the Italian's at the moment, remember there are also
a fair few Italian based teams - Ferrari, Minardi, Osella, Dallara,
Life, Coloni so there is a fair bit of talent spotting and sponsorship
down in sunny southern Europe. When you look at the teams you quickly
realise that actually only 3 countries enter cars, GB, France and
Italy.
I still reckon its Ayrton's race on Sunday.
Paul
|
837.263 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Wed Mar 21 1990 13:59 | 19 |
| Re a long way back.
The report I read said that the Subaru thingy was running, if
that's the right term, the new flat 12 engine.
The W12 engine looks to be in need of some 'development'!.
In Brazil I can't see Senna being beaten either. Berger may be
as fast but there must be a great doubt over whether he can run
fast enough, long enough to win. Ferrari must do better than in
the US and indeed the circuit will be more to their liking but
somehow I can't see them troubling McLaren, or both of them
finishing. Both Williams should be filling spaces in the top six
along perhaps with Piquet/Nannini and Alesi, whose Tyrell will
obviously not be quite the force it was in Phoenix but still
may have a chance of a place.
-John
|
837.264 | | LISVAX::BRITO | | Wed Mar 21 1990 14:41 | 32 |
| After so many comments, here are mine.
About the Phoenix Grand Prix...
Before the race Nigel Mansell gave an interview. Two of his statements were
really curious. The first was when he stated that Prost is in the Ferrari team,
because he (Mansell) made it possible. I thought that Prost was in the Ferrari
because he was taking no.1 with him and because of his value as a F1 driver.
The second was that they had done their homework during the winter and they
were (Ferrari) therefore competitive. The race showed clearly that the Ferraris
haven't changed much. They used to smoke. Now, they almost explode!!!:-)
(Good work from Mansell the way he stopped the burning beast!) But Prost should
have stopped. His car was leaking oil. Actually the car-cam became so dirty
that we lost the nice views it was providing. Something must be wrong with
Prost and Mansell's homework...
Finnaly and when everybody is claiming that Senna is a danger to other
drivers, a new "danger" joined the club. Alesi in his duel with Senna showed
precisely that. When I was watching the overcrossings I was thinking that if
Alesi were Prost, Senna would have been disqualified for dangerous driving ;-)
In my opinion Alesi did a very good race and was nice to see him getting the
second place.
Finnaly, I do value what McHonda represents in terms of technology.
Their cars seem to belong to another class. And they keep expectations
low. Not like some teams that are always stating how great they
are going to be "next" year with the "new
car/box/tyres/suspension/pilot/ad nausea"!!!
RUI
|
837.265 | political prerogative is killing free speech... | MUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSY | Brit Yank Thai Scot Welsh Jap | Wed Mar 21 1990 16:20 | 26 |
| >When used by a drunken American in a South Boston bar on St. Patrick's
>day (Brit) is anything but friendly.
As one whose grandparents lived in South Boston and who therefore fit
this model of drunken Irishman I'm the perfect authority to assure you
that this is bad information. Brit has zero perjorative meaning.
None. It's an entirely neutral word. Like Jap, it's a familiar noun
form, a verbal shorthand.
Don't worry, I'm not objecting at all to the Irish Drunk stereotype
(see p_name :^).
As a pure bred Irishman I recognize that most cultural stereotypes
have a strong basis in fact, including this particular one. The
same goes for Paul's unassailable usage of NakaJap - the only reason
the guy's in F1 is cuz of his national identity, which explains why
his nationality is mentioned where others' aren't and also means it's
abundantly germaine as a subject.
As for Art-the-Inquisitor, if you wanna get after Pateman on a truly
egregious charge ask him why he never accounts for the dominant
McHonda ride he has when evaluating Senna's greatness as a driver :^) .
Now *that* is a weighty subject in this file.
MrT
|
837.266 | | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Wed Mar 21 1990 16:39 | 9 |
| >>the only reason the guy's in F1 is cuz of his national identity
by this do you mean that all Japanese are F1 drivers
OR
all F1 drivers are Japanese
...Art-the-Inquisitor :-)
|
837.267 | The Anglo-Irish Accord | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Wed Mar 21 1990 16:48 | 19 |
| Thanks for the kind comments Steve ;->
As to Ayrton and his McHonda, I restate my case - look at his
performances in the Toleman and the Lotus. Also, the newly published
book about him tells a tale of a try out in a rally car - and some
pretty good preformances. I sincerely believe Senna would be at
the top in any car, although I concede he wouldn't dominate in a
less professional team than McHonda.
I'd really like to see a fun race once a year when they reverse
the tables and put the drivers of the top team in the cars of the
bottom team etc. The thought of Senna and Berger in Lifes chasing
Brabham and Langes in McHondas in fascinating! We can but dream!
Hope you had a good St Paddy's day Steve, the sight of green beer
in the States fair turned my stomach!
Paul
|
837.268 | Mansell and Prost | OASS::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Wed Mar 21 1990 17:13 | 9 |
| back a few:
I think Mansell's comments about him 'allowing' Prost on the team had
to do with the fact that Mansell was #1 at Ferrari and if Prost came on
board, they would have to be joint #1. Mansell could have refused to
drop his status as #1 and that would have made getting Prost to join a
bit tougher.
Dave
|
837.269 | What's new | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Wed Mar 21 1990 17:31 | 6 |
| Quite frankly, anything that Mansell says is best disregarded.
I think he functions best on the old 'Seen but not Heard'
principle as used with children.
John (not a Mansell fan by the way)
|
837.270 | | SHAPES::KERRELLD | SBP but mail still to @UCG | Wed Mar 21 1990 17:46 | 5 |
| re .269:
So you don't rate Manbrit's charge until the ka-boooOOMM took him out?
Dave.
|
837.271 | | MUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSY | Ayrton Senna MUST be stopped!! | Wed Mar 21 1990 21:16 | 21 |
| On Mansell's utterances, I was surprised at the lack of reaction
in here to what Nige said about Berger's feiry Rio crash. You
remember, where he stated that Gerhard admitted to "getting small"
in the cockpit the moment the wing snapped and that he would stayed
with it and gotten the car's speed down and had less of a crash.
I was surprised to learn that the Berger's car was still steerable
as he went off the track. Based on the car hurling straight into
the wall, I had assumed that there was no steering. That reflects
badly on Gerhard.
Also, the only diff I see this year from last is the #2 McHonda being
crashed due to driver error instead of driven to a_obeisant second
place finish by "le professeur"...
re: the Lotus-Lambo-GM connection
Actually, Lamorghini is owned by Chrysler, which probably explains
why Lotus and Lambo are parting ways. Right?
MrT
|
837.272 | GM, Chrysler, Ford - who cares! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Mar 22 1990 08:56 | 41 |
| re .271
Sorry, touch of brain fade, I mixed GM & Chrysler. Actually, Team
Lotus is independant from the road car group, but the ties are pretty
close. Maybe Lotus will try to reinstate the Honda connection with
customer V10s if they do lose Lambo's.
Other rumours this week -
Caffi will be driving in Brazil, but probably in testing only as
he's still not fully fit.
Pirro will definately be missing tho'.
David Brabham is a possibility to replace Foitek at Brabham after
Brazil. Foitek's contract is for two races only and his dad has
now bought Onyx so he looks a good bet for there next year. Brabham
is currently teamed with Damon Hill in the Middlebridge F3000 team.
Middlebridge are determined to take the Brabham team back to the
top and are talking to Nissan among others about engine deals.
McLaren are saying they will have a 5th contracted driver later
this year to add to Senna, Berger, Palmer and McNish - ant guesses?
DeCesaris is now the driver with most races without a win. Phoenix
was his 136th start beating J-P Jarier who came so close quite a
few times, particularly with a couple of races for Lotus I seem
to remember.
As for Berger, I used to rate him as highly as Prost/Mansell/Senna
but now I'm not so sure, he does seem to have too many shunts with
static objects like tyre barriers. He's definately quick but I think
he might be a little over enthusiastic. I can't remember how old
he is, but it's a bit like Mansell of about 4 years ago - lots of
leading but few wins.
Anybody out there take the Eurosport GP coverage - what's it like?
Paul
|
837.273 | Lambo Engineering | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Thu Mar 22 1990 11:22 | 14 |
| re .271
MrT,
the no1 customer (in $ volume) of Lamborghini Engineering is ....
GM
(confirmed by Daniele Audetto and Emile Novaro).
On the exclusive use of the engine my translation reads : Lamborghini
prepared vs 3rd party maintenance (Heini Mader). The Lambo/Lambo cars
might well have a more developped version of the engine. Very much
like Honda and Mugen (if they conclude the deal).
|
837.274 | Unofficial practice in Brazil | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Fri Mar 23 1990 13:35 | 11 |
| The Brazillian Grand prix stutters onwards despite the problems
in Brazil (As a result of 73% per month inflation the banks have
been closed etc. etc.). Various problems encountered include the
delay of supply of Goodyear's tyres.
Still unofficial practice did take place in wet conditions. The
first session saw Donnelly fastest, followed by Mansell then
Warwick!!!!. This Lotus blossom was short lived and the second
unofficial practice saw a 123 of Senna, Mansell and Prost.
-John
|
837.275 | | SALMON::SHAUGHNESSY | Ayrton Senna must be CAUGHT! | Fri Mar 23 1990 21:30 | 12 |
| re .272
Come to think of it, GM has more reason to dislike Honda than they
do Chrysler.
I thought, on TV at least, that Alesi's car looked beautiful with
so little sponsorship and such a pretty paint job. Won't last long
on *that* car, though.
Go Ferrari, beat Ayrton on his home turf!
MrT
|
837.276 | Your wish granted | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Mon Mar 26 1990 08:21 | 18 |
| Look like your wish was granted.
Yesterdays result.
1. A.Prost Ferrari
2. G.Burger Mclaren
3. A.Senna Mclaren
4. N.Mansell Ferrari
I missed the race live ( recorded it though ) as I was out racing
all day but I understand that Mr Senna got his nose chopped off
Mr. Nakawhatshisname ,that being the reason he could only manage 3rd.
Life's tough at the top.
Garry
|
837.277 | how stupid ? | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Mar 26 1990 11:00 | 6 |
| I really don't know what to say. He had the race in his pocket,
no problem, ... and ... unbelievable SENNA does the most stupid
thing !
Prost's win is deserved. Really sorry for Boutsen destroying the
front end of his Williams. He could have been a winner too !
|
837.278 | Good competition | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Mar 26 1990 11:31 | 50 |
| I really am bl**dy mad that we were not allowed to see the "normal"
outcome of the race. "Normal" for me being Prost pulling back the
20 odd secs that Senna had 30 laps from the end, and then a one-on-one
for the last 5 laps.
All was spoilt by Senna who had his aileron run over by the left REAR
wheel of the car he decided to take out on a corner.
The guy is a nut. He had a good car, a healthy motor, an apparently
well controlled race, the whole (so it appeared) public on his side,
20 seconds of preparation time before the challenger etc., etc.,
- and then he blows going in on the inside of a back marker who never
offered any kind of challenge, in fact probably never even saw him!
The last is even more of a condemnation since, if true, Senna should
have anticipated, after all he is considered by some to be the best.
Apart from that the race was excellent, Boutsen doing an excellent
job passing Berger and going after Senna until his pit stop.
After a long delay in the pits, the coverage from his on-board
camera showed a flash of him almost taking out a pit person, and
a stack of wheels!
Coverage was excellent image wise but abysmal content wise.
Tele Monte Carlo showed all.
The on-site coverage showed one car for the first 20 laps - Senna's.
Finally we were treated to one or two tables showing positions and
other information.
A flash of Senna's "connerie", a flash of Boutsens bout in the pits,
and then for me a very amusing podium session.
Prost and Berger appeared and stood behind the podium. Senna took his
place as far from Prost as was possible - extreme right of stage
(as we saw it on Tele). Not a word was exchanged.
Prost said one or two words to Berger and that was it.
For my part it was a great race notwithstanding the disaapointments.
The Williams showed up well, Ferrari seemed more than competitive,
McLaren still competitive - three manufacturers in the last 6 places
and a very interesting points table for Immola.
One last point, Prost gave an interview about the Phoenix performance
(Ferrari's). His explanation was that a small oil resevoir (I did
not catch what it was for) was leaking onto the embrayage (clutch). He
said it was a very minor problem easily fixed by a sturdier container,
and that it was overlooked as a source of problems.
George Frost
|
837.279 | I know Prost won......... | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Mon Mar 26 1990 11:54 | 16 |
| I am suitably munching humble pie as Senna tripped over Nakajima
and handed the race to Prost on a platter. BBC's coverage was pretty
dire thanks, I think, to the Brazilian director, although the highlights
seemed badly edited. Therefore we couldn't tell whether Prost was
catching or not, but I don't reckon he'd have got past Senna.
As to blame, I'd reckon 70% Senna, 30% Nakajima. I'd have to check
the video but I don't think Senna ever got more than half way
alongside. As for the rest, Piquet looks rejuvenated but the Benetton
hasn't got the legs, Lotus seemed in a shambles, the Williams' looked
more competitive than I expected and I am in deep mourning for Leyton
House. My only consolation is that it is obviously the car as the
two drivers are posting so similar times. Maybe their new VAXes
for CAD/CAM need to be tuned ;-)
Paul
|
837.280 | | RUTILE::GUEST | | Mon Mar 26 1990 12:01 | 15 |
|
I saw the Boutsen incident on Canal + (coded), so wasn't to sure
what was going on. ( DRS, according to my rag , were supposed to
give full coverage, but it went onto Football after 30 minutes.
FR3 then gave us 10 minutes (as did the Italians) ).
Anyway, what happened to Boutsen? The camera showed him hitting a tire
( and norrowly missing a mechanic), which meant he required a new
front. Was it his fault, of was one of the other teams playing
at silly *&^%$# ?
And why were some of the Tire-changes taking so long. Mansell's
seemed to take 20 seconds or so.
Nigel
|
837.281 | All's well... | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Mar 26 1990 12:20 | 20 |
| Paul,
Prost was reeling in Senna by about .8sec per lap when Senna did
his thing. Who knows whether Prost would have caught Senna but the
racing up to it would have been great.
In terms of F1, the Tele Monte Carlo commentator put the result into
perspective for me when he said that Ferrari could not have made a
better investment than Prost (as expensive as he undoubtedly is).
The guy seems to have made a great difference to the preparation of
the car and he goes out and wins as well! What a great boost for the
moral of the Ferrari scuderia.
So for me, a great race, a great relief to see at least 2 cars out
there to challenge the McLaren domination and a sprinkling of the
talent out there amongst all the manufacturers. GOOD for the season
and the sport.
George Frost
|
837.282 | My 2 cents worth | UNTADI::PAGE | Master of Desired Performance | Mon Mar 26 1990 13:57 | 30 |
| Re The last few. Boutsen seemed to misjudge where his pitcrew
were situated and almost took one of them out. I think the
wheel dropped by the mechanic ( who obviously had other things
in mind in terms of his own safety ) damaged the nose of the
car and it had to be replaced. This probably cost Boutsen
third.
Having watched the race live out here ( Germany ) I can understand
why the BBC highlights were bad. I would doubt if the editing
had much to do with it, the coverage was bad - period !! It
was ok if you were a Senna or a Piquet fan but the coverage
was confusing and gave very little information about the
flow of the race. Example.... Prost was on his last lap,
the director was tracking Piquet overtaking Alesi and the
camera only returned to Prost as he crossed the line. Must
admit I miss the views of James Hunt on this subject living
out here, they are normally quite amusing.
I think the Senna Nakajap incident was quite clear cut. As
much as I dislike Senna he has well and truely 'chopped' by
the pathetically inept Naka... Senna made the move , he had
the line and Naka just cut in and drove over Senna nose.
Quite why this cretin has been granted a superlicence
again this year is beyond me. Good showing around the houses
or not. Money and Japanese corporate sponsorship, thats the
only reason he continues to flouder around out of his depth.
Dave
|
837.283 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon Mar 26 1990 14:22 | 26 |
| I thought that the most heartening feature of this race was
that the cars were far more evenly matched than for some
years past.
It would have been the case until quite recently that the loss
of a McLaren nose would only mean the difference between their
winning by a huge margin and a vast margin. Now any indiscretion
is likely to mean that a Ferarri or a Williams will fill the
gap.
I wonder how long Piquet's resurgence will last, scrapping hard
for sixth place hasn't been his style for years now, and he does
seem to be getting the better of Nannini which is somewhat
surprising.
Yes the coverage was awful. The impression given to me regarding
Boutsen's incident was that it delayed him by just 20 secs,
which hardly explains how it took him completely out of
the reckoning. Last year I favoured Boutsen to be the most
successful Williams driver, he wasn't. This year I've favoured
Patrese, which has obviously completely ruined his chances!.
Two races and I've yet to even see a Lotus which reflects their
dire performance so far and the sparse tele coverage.
-John
|
837.284 | What about the tail end charlies? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Mon Mar 26 1990 14:30 | 17 |
| Any body know any more details of the lower places/retirements other
than the following:
7 J Alesi
8 S Nakajima
9 P-L Martini
10 A Nannini
??
Also, did anybody hear if Mansell had any sort of problem other
than his lenghty pit stop for his usual Brazilian quota of 5 wheels?
I know he's said he plans to be more cautious this year but he was
almost invisible!
Paul
|
837.285 | Interlagos | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Mar 26 1990 15:21 | 15 |
| Both Ferraris had long pits stops. Mansell had a problem with the
gear selection mechanism. Prost also lost about 10 more seconds
trying to get off the pits (probably a similar problem).
On the Senna/Nakajima incident : Senna was behind, so it was entirely
his fault this time.
The Interlagos circuit is terribly demanding. All drivers including
the old timers were absolutely dead for the 2nd half of the race. High
g's almost all round the circuit (except for a couple of seconds
during the grandstand straight before braking very hard for the slow
left hander).
Beautiful circuit for the driving purists. No wonder it has been
designed mostly by Senna. It includes a lot of high tech corners.
|
837.286 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Mon Mar 26 1990 16:16 | 11 |
| Boutsen lost out because he hit his nose coming out of the pits after his
tyre change, and so had to come in again for a replacement cone. I think that
he hit a pile of Mclaren tyres, though I wouldn't swear to it.
Manesll lost time because he had to have his steering wheel replaced! He was
having gear selection troubles - the Ferrari mechanism is on the wheel.
I don't know if he continued to have the same trouble afterwards?
Eurosport coverage wasn't bad - apart from the 4 commerical breaks they take.
The Brazilian TV coverage was unimaginative - I think that they could have done a
lot better.
|
837.287 | re .284 | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Mar 26 1990 16:53 | 16 |
| Interlagos, official chart
1. Prost Ferrari 1h37'21"258
2. Berger McLaren -13"564
3. Senna McLaren -37"722
4. Mansell Ferrari -47"266
5. Boutsen Williams 1 lap
6. Piquet Benetton 1 lap
7. Alesi Tyrrell 1 lap
8. Nakajima Tyrrell 1 lap
9. Martini Minardi 2 laps
10. Nannini Benetton 3 laps
11. Larini Ligier 3 laps
12. Alliot Ligier 3 laps
13. Patrese Williams 6 laps (engine)
14. Morbidelli Italia 7 laps
|
837.288 | we were cheated of the best part... | CREDIT::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Mon Mar 26 1990 19:05 | 35 |
| About Prost catching up: (from the ESPN cover)
Prost was 6s behind before the pit stops. He emerged 13s behind. The
pit stops weren't covered, but there did seem to be a problem.
Before Senna's accident, Prost was picking close to a second/lap. So
the arithmetic look good. After the accident, with Senna probably ready
to go for it, Prost was still picking up half a second on Senna, a little
more than that on Berger.
I also agree: we got frustrated of the better part of the race: Prost
and Senna going for it.
On the Senna incident, I would say it's pure arithmetic: the guy takes
unreasonable risks when lapping slow cars. On the bright side, he
picks a few seconds when passing (how ofter did he pull away from Prost
in traffic last year). When it works. Of course, it can't work every
time, and when it doesn't, he looks like a fool. But you have to be
consistent: you can't praise the guy when he takes too many risks and
by chance pulls out untouched, and then blame him when he takes a
gamble and looses. Those are two sides of the same coin. Stupic
accidents cost Senna a few races last year, but "fast" passing in
traffic may have won him a few as well. Whether the balance is positive
or negative is a matter of appreciation, I guess.
Of course, that leaves out another aspect of it: danger. I believe
the goal of racing is to drive your car fast, not to play russian
roullette with your and other's life, and hope the odds come out in
your favor. All a matter of personal appreciation, I reckon.
All in all, a real good race. The season looks like it's going to be
much more exciting than last year...
JP
|
837.289 | | FORTY2::BETTS | Safety Fast | Mon Mar 26 1990 19:24 | 6 |
|
Does anyone have a VHS copy of the race? I've got about the first lap
and a bit...
Bi||.
|
837.290 | The Red Cars..... | NZIRC5::EATON | Marketing - the rubber meets the sky | Tue Mar 27 1990 00:05 | 5 |
| Anyone have any details about Ferrari's new engine ? Are they really planning
to run it in 6 weeks ?
I've looked this season for the Digital logo on the red cars, but can't see them
- are they there ?
|
837.291 | Me, sir! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Tue Mar 27 1990 08:48 | 7 |
| RE .289
I have, Bill. I'll bring it in tomorrow
Colin
PS It's a pretty boring race from the BBC highlights, though!!
|
837.293 | DEC No More | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Tue Mar 27 1990 09:44 | 18 |
| Re Ferrari & Digital
I heard (rumour only) that Fiat had gone IBM for CAD etc and that
Ferrari had done likewise, hence DEC pulling the plug - any Italian
noters confirm this?
However, Digital UK are sponsoring Leyton House. We got into
Hospitality in Phoenix courtesy of that and our membership of their
supporters club. DEC hasn't got a logo on the car but the old blue
& white lego bricks do appear on all their handouts along with Davia,
Philips, Auotglass, Fiam and BP.
On the subject of Leyton House, seems they are not going to use
a Judd V10 afterall. Apparently they announced yesterday that they
will be taking a new engine from Ilmor Engineering who provided
engines for the past 3 Indy 500's (according to the Guardian)
Paul
|
837.294 | | SHAPES::STREATFIELDC | VW Beetle.. IOSG::AIR_COOLED | Tue Mar 27 1990 11:50 | 11 |
| RE .282,
Boutsen didn't actually hit one of his own pit crew, it was one of the
crew of the team infront, caused much amusement....one pit crew member
running like a jack rabbit, leaving his wheel well and truely behind !.
As for Sennas crunch, I think he was in the wrong, and it was sort of
poetic justice, for all Sennas "not-so-ethical" moves he has done in
the past !.
Carl
|
837.295 | | FORTY2::BETTS | Safety Fast | Tue Mar 27 1990 12:10 | 4 |
|
Thanks Colin! Much appreciated.
Bi||.
|
837.296 | Ayrhead and ESPN and Crystal Balling | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Tue Mar 27 1990 15:27 | 22 |
| Well, Ayrhead did it again! David Hobbs on ESPN had a very interesting
comment. 1) Senna was comfortably ahead (12 or 13 seconds), he was
under no immediate pressure, and his car was running well. Therefore,
he had no need to pass on that corner, which Hobbs described as not a
good place to pass. 2) Nakajima is a relatively inexperienced F1
driver, and he has a reputation for using his mirrors only for shaving.
Taking only those points into consideration, and not bothering about
rules and racing lines, Hobbs placed all the blame on Senna. Hobbs
also did a little basic arithmetic that showed that Prost would have
caught Senna anyway (passing might have been another story). Finally,
on Boutsen's pit stop, ESPN reported that he did hit one of his
mechanics, who "flew over the air box." Minor injuries only,
fortunately.
For Imola . . . we can count on Ferrari closing the hp gap a little
(after all, Honda is splitting its forces between V10 and V12; Ferrari
should be able to get the trans a little more reliable over the next
month and a half; Williams should be a little faster; Benneton ought to
be a little better (maybe a lot better); Senna will NOT suddenly get a
lot smarter. Imola ought to be good.
|
837.297 | Naka Naka Noo this helmets for you | UNTADI::PAGE | Master of Desired Performance | Tue Mar 27 1990 16:54 | 14 |
| What ?
Nakajima is not relatively inexperienced, he's been around for four
seasons. After four years in any job you should know a fair bit
( ok, ok - debatable ), Nakajimas proble is that he's c**p !
If we want to talk inexperience lets talk about Alesi. This is
his first full season and he just happens to be driving the
same car as Naka. Mmmmm... Says it all really but I bet its
written into Alesis contract that he must swap helmets with
Naka before each race so that the Japanese sponsors appear to get
their moneys worth :-)
Der Welsh
|
837.298 | Senna's good - but not great! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Wed Mar 28 1990 08:51 | 36 |
| Isn't this the difference between a GOOD driver and a GREAT
driver?? I mean, a GOOD driver will go balls out all the way as he is
motivated to win races. A GREAT driver will think seriously about what
it is he wants to win (the Championship), think seriously about how to
go about that and then drive accordingly.
Senna's antics, once again, count him out from being truly great -
at the moment he does not use his head enough. Talented? Yes. A serious
title contender? Certainly. Great? NO!
Prost, despite his motivation problems last year, I would cast as
great. Anyone who can win 40 GPs and three World Championships in his
career has to have something. I think Prost's ability to think things
through (eg set the car up for the race rather than go flat out for
pole) is what sets him apart. I think Berger is in the same mould as
his teammate and that Mansell is trying to break into that category
this year. His Championship near-misses with Williams were unfortunate
but I think he is a much better driver now than then - using his head,
thinking about the whole season and not just the next corner.
If Senna was in the same league, he would not go knocking his
nosefins off on Nakajima's backside. At the post-race press conference
he intimated that it was all Naka's fault. Bull! Senna screwed up his
own chances by taking a risk that was just not worth it because that's
he way he drives full stop.
Frankly, I'm disappointed so far with Ferrari. I had hoped that
they would be ultra-reliable (as are McLaren) and prepared for this
season. If they are serious about taking the Constructors' Championship
away from McLaren then they have to have two cars finishing regularly
in the top 6. I hope Imola sees the horsepower gap narrow even further
and hope that Mansell will get his first win of the season with Prosty
2nd ahead of BOTH McLarens. THEN I will feel a bit better. Otherwise,
it's going to be yet another boring McHonda year.
Colin
|
837.299 | | JOCKEY::GLEDHILLS | No Brakes, No Steering | Wed Mar 28 1990 10:01 | 6 |
| Re: .290
The Digital logo's still there - moved to the front of the nose
cone, and in a nice shade of Ferrari red.
S
|
837.301 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Mar 28 1990 12:52 | 10 |
| At the bottom of the list ....
Prequalified Friday morning:
- Bernard, Larrousse-Lambo
- Suzuki, Larrousse-Lambo
- Grouillard, Osella-Ford
- Dalmas, AGS-Ford
Poor Brabham could not even mange one full lap with the LIFE-Rocchi
|
837.302 | Ferrari | MARVIN::RUSLING | MicroServer Phase V Session Control | Wed Mar 28 1990 14:10 | 9 |
| I just read the report of the Grand Prix in Monday's paper. It said that
Mansell's car was suffering from a broken front anti-roll bar that couldn't be
fixed. So, he spent the second half of the race nursing the car. Apparently,
not a happy man.
The previous race's problems (at least, Prost's) were caused by a leaking oil
expansion box on the gearbox.
Dave
|
837.303 | Brabham for Brabham? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Mar 29 1990 13:49 | 27 |
| Reports are continuing that David Brabham will be in the Middlebridge
Brabham at Imola, although they are talking to other drivers. Either
way it looks like Foitek is on his way out. Middlebridge are also
winding down their F3000 effort so Brabham and Damon Hill are at
a loose end. Hill is reported to be going to do F1 testing, Japanese
F3000 and some WSPC. It would make quite a "historic" team for '91
- Brabham & Hill!
Leyton House are still being cagey about their new engine, although
it is likely to be Chrysler based. No details on timings, although
if its related to the Indy car one it might not be too far away.
Interview with Mr Honda in Autosport indicates that they may have
to drop out of racing if the US votes for mandatory 50% increases
in fuel efficiency. Rumours are quoted of McLaren talking to Mercedes!
Neotech W12(?) ran in a Porsche last week with Walter Brun at the
wheel, no news on date for the Eurobrun though.
Detailed race reports indicate that JMB endeared himself to Brazil
by addressing the crowd in Spainish, and going round with an Uzi
toting bodyguard. Also Naka*** apologised to Senna, saying he was
on the marbles at the edge and slid over. Berger is reported as
saying he was very uncomfortable in the car and couldn't push very
hard. Boutsen was having brake problems - hence the flying mechanic.
Paul
|
837.304 | white on read | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Thu Mar 29 1990 14:23 | 9 |
| Autosport today confirm the digital sponsorship to Ferrari. For those
who don't read it, the front cover has a picture of Prost and Mansell
with the digital logo , white on red , clearly visible below Magent
Marrelli and Webber on the nose of the Ferrari.
Garry
|
837.305 | | LEROUF::MERRICK | Aspiring to a writers block... | Thu Mar 29 1990 16:38 | 5 |
| re -2 I'm sure JMB speaking Spanish? Must have endeared himself to the
Portuguese speaking locals and only confirms what most people think of
him.
Ken
|
837.306 | "Que?" | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Mar 29 1990 17:08 | 11 |
| Apologies for the spelin' I'm an innorant salesman :-)
It seems that part way through his speech one section of the crowd
started chanting "Senna-Senna-Senna" and this gradually was taken
up by the whole lot!
There is an interview with JMB in April's Prix Editions in which
he comes across as a total ego-maniac with a view that he must run
motor sport for life. Makes interesting reading!
Paul
|
837.307 | JMB in BRAZIL - Statements to the media | LISVAX::BRITO | | Thu Mar 29 1990 17:28 | 16 |
| JMB was in Brazil to face the people of this country who just hate the
old lunatic. He was advised by his phisician not to do it but insisted
we wanted to be there. He also stated that it wasn't the first
time he had had problems with people who dislike him and
refered that the same had happened before with one other
country's (sorry can 't remember which one - Italy maybe?).
But that there in Brazil it wasn't even dfficult to face the crowds,
because they couldn't even afford to buy the tomatos to throw at him
(as it was usual in the other country he was referring to).
This was of course an allusion to the bad time Brazil is going through
and the economic situation they're facing. No wonder that they almost
didn't show Prost during the race. For Brazilian Prost and JMB are
one single entity.
RUI
|
837.308 | The collected wisdom of JMB | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Mar 29 1990 17:59 | 32 |
| Some JMB quotes
Re Discipline
At the next world council I'm going to put forward the idea of red
and yellow cards like they have in football. Then we'll see how
guilty parties react.
Re Senna at Adelaide
As luck would have it he made a mistake while he was in the lead
and put a magic end if I may put it that way to all that carry on.
Re Prost's view on Senna's preferential treatment
I didn't blame Dennis for showing preference for Senna. Prost and
his little journalist pals are largely responsible for such behaviours.
I like Alain a lot, but there are times when he gets on my nerves
with the way he carries on and he knows it. He wants its all his
own way.
Re Senna'a extra 20hp
We learned in the course of 89 that the Honda engine developed 20hp
more than the Ferrari. Seeing Prost uanable to hang onto Senna but
able to fight with the Ferrari's it is easy to draw the conclusion
that his engine too has 20hp less than Senna's. Isn't it logical?
Paul
|
837.309 | Leyton House and Ilmor Engieering | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Fri Mar 30 1990 09:03 | 9 |
| The Leyton House engine will be a brand new Ilmor 3.5 litre V10 which
will be installed in the car before the end of November. The deal was
finalised in Phoenix.
Imola should see the debuts of the new Benetton B190, the Tyrrell 019
and Minardi's M190 but we have a whole SEVEN weeks to wait (until 13th
May)!!!
Colin
|
837.310 | Can anyone answer this one? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Mon Apr 02 1990 11:22 | 14 |
| Re - the disappearing Digital!
I checked my and Autosport's pix from Phoenix over the weekend,
and I reckon Digital should be after a refund from Ferrari!
The logo was only on the cars for two out of three days. It was
there on race day and in the wet session, but on day 1 it was nowhere
to be seen. Anybody got an explanation?
Mind you, the sight of McLaren engineers peeling off one Shell logo
and replacing it with, to my eyes, an identical one was equally
baffling.
Paul
|
837.311 | If I'm paying I want it displayed, clearly! | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Studying fluid dynamics, from a stein | Mon Apr 02 1990 11:56 | 16 |
| > Mind you, the sight of McLaren engineers peeling off one Shell logo
> and replacing it with, to my eyes, an identical one was equally
> baffling.
It's not uncommon for the sponsors' logo to be replaced a 'number'
of times, time permitting, during practice. This of course depends
on how dirty the logo gets and what sums of money are involved.
During a Formula 3 round, many years ago at Enna, I replaced the
"DAF" sticker six times in two practice sessions ! Mind you, a number
of DAF execs. had flown over to see how Mr Lammers was getting on
using their money..
Gordon
|
837.312 | Brazil Postscripts | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon Apr 02 1990 14:09 | 14 |
| According to Nakajima (In Motoring News) he did take a wide
line to let Senna through but then, being off the normal line
and onto the 'marbles', suddenly found it necessary to return
to the inside of the track.
Mansell didn't actually change his steering wheel. It was removed
to allow access to the roll bar adjusters but was then replaced
since it wasn't thought practicable to try and look at his
problem.
The W12 engine in the LIFE was said to have broken a connecting rod.
That sounds very ominous.
-John
|
837.313 | Musical Chairs start now | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Tue Apr 03 1990 09:52 | 13 |
| According to last night's Evening Standard, David Brabham has been
confirmed as replacing Gregor Foitek in the Middlebridge Brabham
team from Imola. His father is reported to be "over the moon" while
Gregor is "sick as a parrot".
Seriously, from the races I saw live in the F3 championship last
year, I rated McNish above Brabham. However, having now seen the
excellent 2 hour plus video of the whole series, I can see why Brabham
is rated so highly. He looks more mature than McNish, and I hope
he does well.
Paul
|
837.314 | Ayrton is innocent! | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Tue Apr 03 1990 10:32 | 11 |
| RE: -.2
That matches what I felt about Nakajima and Senna. Whilst I've been
as critical as anyone about some of Senna's overtaking manouevres, I think
that he was really unlucky this time. Nakajima's approach to the corner
was definitely inviting Senna to overtake.
Still, if it keeps the "pack" closer to him for a while before he sails
off into the distance, then it makes the championship more interesting.
Steve
|
837.315 | Slightly off the Topics... | NSDC::WALKER | Gru� von Bru� | Tue Apr 03 1990 15:30 | 14 |
|
Gidday,
I am trying to track down 3 seats for the Imola Grand Prix.
Grandstand or any other stand, it doesn't really matter.
Anybody out there know of a way I can acquire them
at this stage of the game?
John.
|
837.316 | Tyrrell on the way up? | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Tue Apr 03 1990 19:08 | 20 |
| The new Tyrrell 019, due to appear at Imola is said to have
'a radically different front arrangement'. I don't have any
details at all but it sounds as if it is something new.
It will be interesting to see whether it races
or not. The current car is going very well, certainly in
comparison with it's engine power, and if the new car is thought
good enough to compete it might be even more of a problem for the
front runners.
Tyrrell seems to be very much on the up at present, but what I
wonder is supporting them financially. They've got a competent car
and have been busy recruiting highly regarded technical people, not
to mention Alesi's success in the driving department. All this and
no proper sponsor!.
Next year they'll have Honda Power too. Alesi's progress to the
top looks set to be meteoric.
-John
|
837.317 | Size is relative! | IOSG::FREER | Deadly brain, or Brain dead? | Tue Apr 03 1990 19:58 | 7 |
|
I'm not sure about this, but in an interview with Ken Tyrell in
Autosport about a month ago, Mr. Tyrell let it be known that the Nippon
shipping Sponsership was very sizeable, and that he no longer had any
financial worries!!
Steve
|
837.318 | One in - One out | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Wed Apr 04 1990 10:04 | 10 |
| It will be interesting to see how the new Tyrrell compares, in recent
seasons a number of teams have changed successful cars for
spectacularly unsuccessful ones. Leyton House spring to mind. I
hope that Ken & co don't blow it.
At the other end of the grid, Gary Brabham is reported to have quit
Life - and who can blame him! Schneider is quoted as a possible
replacement.
Paul
|
837.319 | Bad news for September | STRIKR::LINDLEY | Strewth mate..... | Wed Apr 04 1990 12:51 | 8 |
| Apparently the Portuguese Grand Prix may not take place this year, due
to a dispute between the owners of the circuit and the Portuguese
motoring body. There is talk of an Austrian Grand Prix instead.
Anyone know more ??
John
|
837.320 | Re -1 | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Wed Apr 04 1990 12:57 | 9 |
| Ceefax last night talked about a deadline of the end of this month
(I think) for them to sort the thing out. It also quoted the boss
of the Portuguese motoring people, saying that they couldn't afford
to cancel because of the revenue it brings in.
Personally, I would prefer a GP in Austria, the Oestereichring (sp?)
is one of my favourite circuits.
Paul
|
837.321 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Wed Apr 04 1990 13:33 | 12 |
| John,
This is good news for me - I loved he Osterreichring the last time I
was there (Ronnie Peterson's last vistory in '78 :-( ). If it is on then I
reckon that I'll go.
Opening up the topic a bit, which F1 Grand Prix's in Europe would people
go to if they were living less than a day's drive from most circuits? I'm
interested in going to a few and would like some opinions.
Cheers
Steve
|
837.322 | Yes I would!!!! | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Wed Apr 04 1990 16:52 | 14 |
| I would go to more GP's if I a) lived nearer to more circuits and b) if
the price to get in was less. The Last F1 GP I went to was 1980 at
Brands Hatch, Alan Jones won in a Williams. I now only got WEC or what
FISA call WSPC , about 3 rounds. An example of the price , this year at
Le Mans I have a Pit Balcony ticket, get me into everywhere during the
race ( paddock, balcony above the pits, every spectator enclosure ) and
2 days of practice but no seats in grandstands, all for #53. I would
shudder to think what that kind of access to a GP would cost baring
in mind that a seat in the Woodcote stand at Silverstone this year is
#75. The normal cost of a ticket to a WSPC race is #12 and a couple of
quid to get into the pits. No supprise I go to WSPC.
Garry
|
837.323 | ? | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Studying fluid dynamics, from a stein | Thu Apr 05 1990 07:47 | 5 |
|
If, and I know it's a big if, there was an Austrian GP in place of
the Portugese, when would it be ?
Gordon
|
837.324 | Money vs Skill | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Apr 05 1990 10:09 | 26 |
| Onyx are reported as having dispensed with the services of both
Johansson and Lhetto, replacing them with Foitek and Sala. Now Iknow
that Stephan has never fulfilled his full potential but he his well
capable of beating those two, and Lhetto is one of the hottest
prospects around. However, it seems they couldn't bring enough personal
money with them. Sounds like F1 is going down a bad road when money
outweighs *real* talent like Lhetto's. Anyone out there confirm
this? Autosport had it as a Stop Press.
Also this week, confirmation of the coming and going Brabhams, picture
of the new Benetton B190 in its first test - its got a high air
box rather than "ears", a Williams like nose profile, new push rod
suspension and a body made to accomodate active suspension - also
reports that Renault may support a second team next year, and it
will be French (Ligier, Lola or AGS).
Also - JMBs full "tomatoes" quote -
"We had similar problems in Corsica with their round of the WRC.
And the Corsicans, you know, not only throw tomatoes, but bombs.
But at present the Brazilians cannot afford to buy tomatoes."
Don't you wish someone like that could sort out all the world's
problems ;->
Paul
|
837.326 | Money is the root...... | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Apr 05 1990 10:50 | 6 |
| I agree that money has always been No1 in F1, and that money has
always been able to buy a seat - but I still think its a sad state
of affairs when someone like Lhetto is replaced by Foitek or Sala.
Paul
|
837.327 | Daddy, can I have a new Scalextric please? | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Thu Apr 05 1990 12:38 | 7 |
| Yes, but Onyx has been bought by the Swiss - a Mr. Monteverdi (remember his
high performance road cars of the early '70s?) and a Mr. Foitek senior...
It should be pretty clear now why one of the current incumbents got the
heave-ho - little Gregor's number was on one those cars from day one :-)...
$teve
|
837.328 | | ULYSSE::FROST | | Thu Apr 05 1990 14:54 | 7 |
| I must have missed something, assuming that the quote is correct
then what he said was true. No?
Don't tell me we are going through the start of another I hate X
hysteria. Let's get on with the facts of F1.
George Frost
|
837.329 | But will they really learn | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Thu Apr 05 1990 14:57 | 20 |
| Yes, the Benetton F190 must I imagine have it's looks improved
by the repositioning of the inlet air duct to the 'normal'
position. Doubtless it will still suffer from a fairly large
dose of the horrid green colour, which if all else fails will
prevent it from doing very well.
Just as the Lotus is suffering badly from being covered 100% in
yuk yellow and Tyrrell have benefitted no end from having a nice
crisp positive colour scheme, Benetton's performance would blossom
considerably if only that green could be dispensed with.
However these people will never learn. They should talk to Renault.
Seven years of pumping masses of money into their cars - best drivers,
most powerful engines, Balestre helping out on the sidelines and still
they couldn't win. If only they could have seen the obvious, that it
was the colour of the car that was at fault. In the end they gave up
having never achieved their aims still, at the highest level that is,
blissfully unaware of the real problem.
-John
|
837.330 | ah ha. | SHAPES::STREATFIELDC | VW Beetle.. IOSG::AIR_COOLED | Thu Apr 05 1990 15:31 | 8 |
| At last.. I have seen the light, All the time it was the paint job, I
shall write a letter to Lotus at once suggesting they employ an
interior decorator/ come grphics designer. Or perhaps some of the
warped minds that produce the "art" on the walls of DEC Park could lend
a hand.....:-)
Carl.
|
837.331 | ONYX | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Thu Apr 05 1990 19:22 | 15 |
| Onyx now belongs to a swiss consortium made of 3 wealthy guys :
- Karl Foitek, Ferrari dealer in Zurich, father of Gregor, used
to race as an amateur in the 60's
- Emil Frei, swiss importer of BMW + Mercedes + .... ?
- Peter Monteverdi, ex-racer, garage owner, ex-car_manufacturer,
owner of a car museum in Binningen near Basle
Gregor Foitek's move from Brabham to Onyx was planned. Perez-Sala
is somewhat of a surprise (spanish pesetas poured by Lois jeans?).
I'm not too enthusiastic about Jirki Jarvilehto. He sure has balls
but that's not enough to succeed in today's F1. Guys like Prost
have brains.
|
837.332 | Offshore Banking Business | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Fri Apr 06 1990 10:07 | 29 |
| Re -1
According to an interview with Monteverdi, he is the sole owner
of Onyx. Foitek's dad was only an advisor. However, I accept that
when the Swiss talk about $$$$$ things can get a little cloudy :-)
Hot off the press -
Ferrari to supply engines to Minardi in 1991, the first time they
have ever let customer engines go out in F1 (although they have
done it in lower formulae)
The reports say that Minardi are reputedly the oldest Fiat dealership
in Italy and that Agnelli, the Fiat boss, was puzzled at why Minardi
could out-qualify Ferrari!
They were also looking to do a "me too" at Honda after the Tyrrell
deal for '91, and looking for a chance to try Ferrari power with
Pirelli tyres.
Also, the Portuguese government has promised to underwrite the GP
with a law if necessary if the circuit owners and the Portuguese
Auto Club cannot come to an agreement, so the race is on. Can anyone
imagine a British government doing that when they even talked out
a bill to allow Birmingham to extend its Super Prix meeting to 4
days?
Paul
|
837.333 | Minor deviation alert! | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under Common Knowledge | Fri Apr 06 1990 10:46 | 20 |
| RE: -.2
Patrick, is the car museum owned by Monteverdi, based on the cars that the
Schlumpf (sp?) brothers obsessively, secrectively, built up over the years
whilst their business went down the tubes? Or am I talking about the French
National Motor Museum (other side of the border, but also near Basle)?
I heard that the Schlumpfs had this private, hidden museum with the most
amazing collection of cars (including more Bugattis then anybody else in the
world), and that when the bailiffs moved in and discovered it, nobody could
believe the scope of it.
The reason that I ask is that I'm going to visit it tomorrow - it would be
good to find out where it is BEFORE I arrive in the Basle area! :-)
Cheers
Steve
P.S. This note is a minor deviation - not intended as a rat-hole!
|
837.334 | ! | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Studying fluid dynamics, from a stein | Fri Apr 06 1990 10:54 | 5 |
|
Don't worry Steve, this file's full of minor deviants of one sort
or another :-)
Gordon
|
837.335 | Digital in CART | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Fri Apr 06 1990 11:54 | 9 |
| Another slight aside.......
The pic of Roberto Guerrero's CART March-Alfa in this week's Autosport
clearly shows the Digital logo on the nose, a la Ferrari. Any US
noters confirm how it got there? I thought our deal was with Ferrari
not the Fiat Group.
Paul
|
837.336 | Digital in motorsport | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Mon Apr 09 1990 11:15 | 11 |
|
On the subject of digital in motor racing, the logo on the ferrari
would appear to be just a token effort. Watching the German touring
car championship on 3 SAT, digital seem to be putting loads of
effort in there. The race was at Hockenhiem and there were digital
logo's all over the place and to finish it off the lap chart displays
were provided by 'digital Computers' with the customary blue background
and blocked letters.
Garry
|
837.337 | CAUTION: For F1 technoids only. | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Mon Apr 09 1990 23:53 | 35 |
| Just rad today that Penske racing and Ilmore Engineering have signed an
agreement to develop an F1 engine. Penske back in F1?
What's the word on the MGN (Moteur Guy Negre) W12 that got a bit of
press last year? It was supposed to power the AGS as soon as it (the
engine was shaken down.
Ferrari to supply engines to Minardi? A shocker. Who takes care of
maintenance? Novamotor? Abarth? Now it might make sense for Fiat to
make the rumored attempt to buy Cosworth. I wonder what Ferrari gains
-- more development time: 4 chassis running their engine instead of
two; access to the Aldo Costa-Michel Tetu braintrust (?) at Minardi; a
chance to support a good Italian driver.
Anything further on the NeoTech V12? Methinks it'll be another
Serenissima.
IS it true that March is about to cut a deal with Ilmor??? Seems
unlikely given the supposed Penske tie-in.
Finally, are there any really hard-core F1 technoids out there who'd
like to wax poetic about the relative merits of push rod vs. pull rod
suspension? Interesting how the designers are split on the virtues of
high-mounted (push rod) vs low-mounted (pull rod). McLaren goes with
the low mounted springing units, as does Lotus, Brabham, and Benneton
(who have I missed?). Ferrari, Williams, Lola, March, Tyrrell, and
everyone else who comes to mind mount their suspension units very high.
(Note the big "bumps" on the front of the WIlliams and Marches.) Seems
to me low-mounted would give lower center of gravity and better
potential for streamlining. Anyone out there with the answer -- or,
better yet, an opinion???
Waiting for the second season . . .
Don
|
837.338 | Not Penske I'm Afraid! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Tue Apr 10 1990 11:10 | 23 |
| Re -1
The Ilmor engine is for the exclusive use of Leyton House in '91.
Testing is expected to commence in October. They are also expected
to announce support from a major manufacturer.
Re Cosworth - they have already been sold, I can't remember the
company but Fiat have missed out.
The Guardian reports this morning that Cesare Fiorio has made an
offer to Senna for 1991 when his contract expires with McHonda.
Understandably this has rather upset Prost & Mansell! Senna is thought
to be unlikely to consider it since he likes working with the Honda
people and it has been put down to another ruse in the McLaren/Ferrari
war of words. However, given that Prost has said he would definately
go if Senna ended up at Modena, and Mansell would be a little unlikely
to stay as well, it would make the musical chairs a bit more
interesting as neither are likely to go to McLaren either!
Also confirmed is Johansson's replacement by Foitek. No confirnation
on Lhetto tho'.
Paul
|
837.339 | Bits | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Tue Apr 10 1990 14:01 | 29 |
| > What's the word on the MGN (Moteur Guy Negre) W12 that got a bit of
> press last year? It was supposed to power the AGS as soon as it (the
> engine was shaken down.
Isn't this the engine in the LIFE car. So far totally unsucesful.
> Ferrari to supply engines to Minardi? A shocker.
I think that the theory is this. Ferrari haven't won the world championship
for 10 years and are getting impatient. Letting another team in, adopting
perhaps a different approach, increases their chances of getting something.
It's said that Honda's decision to take a second team has been a spur.
And on suspension systems. It always seemed to me that pull rod was best
because the rod would be stiffer in tension than compression and this was
the original configuration. However the trend does appear to be in favour of
push rods now. Did you know that this suspension arrangement was first
introduced by Maurice Phillipe, who's British despite the name, when he
worked for Lotus in the early 70's. However it fell into disuse until
he revived it when he became Tyrrell chief designer at the beginning of
the 80's. It then spread to all the other cars, and is now standard.
The merit of pull/push rod suspension is that it allows the spring/damper
units to be inside the body of the car (and thus out of the airstream) whilst
maintaining rigidity. When rocker arms were used for this purpose the
flexing of the arms effected precision unless they were made very strong and
thus heavy.
-John (who met Phillipe when he went to Tyrrell once)
|
837.340 | | NZIRC5::EATON | Marketing - the rubber meets the sky | Wed Apr 11 1990 02:17 | 4 |
| re: push/pull rod suspension
It always apeared to me lat year that the Ferrari was a much better
handling car than the McLaren...
|
837.341 | Monteverdi <> Mulhouse | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Apr 11 1990 11:43 | 26 |
| re .333
Sorry for this late response Steve. I guess you have found the museumS
in the meantime. Now for the readers of this notesfile interested
in historic cars:
- the "Schlumpf Museum" now called National Auto Museum is located
in MULHOUSE, France. It contains 400 (four hundred) BUGATTIs and
various cars. It is definitely the BUGATTI sanctuary. Mr Schlumpf
used to buy at least one copy of each model in order to build the
completely perfect collection. Of course he found in love with certain
models of which he bought several copies. All cars in magnificient
condition. In particular, of the 6 Royale's built 2 are kept in
Mulhouse.
- Monteverdi's museum in Binningen near Basle is located in
Switzerland. It is owned by Peter Monteverdi and contains (I've
not been there yet) a copy of all different Monteverdi's built.
For those who dont know Monteverdi's cars, I think somewhere around
150-200 were ever built in the 1965-1975 timeframe. Monteverdi designed
everything himself (tubular chassis, bodyshape, interior) except
the engine which was borrowed from the Chrysler catalog (7ltr).
Bodies were built by Frua and later by Fissore. Very nice shapes
in the Maserati Ghibli inspiration. Luxurious interior. 2seater
coupes, 4 seater coupes, 2 seater cabriolets, 2 seater mid-engine
coupes and eventually "Range Rover" integral transmission cars were built.
|
837.342 | Minardi-Ferrari ? old story | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Apr 11 1990 12:00 | 3 |
| Minardi with a Ferrari engine ? sounds familiar to me. Wasn't it
Minardi who got the Ferrari Dino engine for his F2 ? not very succesful
engine if I remember well.
|
837.344 | New Tyrrell = New Nose Style | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Wed Apr 11 1990 12:28 | 44 |
| Today's Autosport has photo's of the new, radical Tyrrell. The car
is similar apart from the nose which has a very different looking
wing. From the front it looks something like this:
O
|_____/ \_____|
Migeot is quoted as follows:-
The underside of the nose section has been rounded and an anhedral
wing concept introduced.
Other bits -
The Leyton House-Ilmor deal will probably also include either Nissan
or Toyota at a later date.
The Senna/Fiorio/91 saga goes on. Although it looks increasingly
like spoiling tactics rather than hard news.
Lehto is staying at Onyx, and the team are switching to Mader prepared
Cosworths rather than Hart ones.
The new Ferrari is shown as a drawing. There is a new engine with
a reputed better power curve and revised bodywork and rear suspension.
A major change is that the nose wings are fitted direct to the chassis
rather than to the bodywork, I would have thought this would have
caused problems in replacing them in a race?
Imola Testing
Prost 1:24.74
Senna 1:25.13
Berger 1:25.31
Boutsen 1:25.63
Patrese 1:25.77
Apicella 1:28.83 (Minardi)
Barilla 1:30.34
Gugelmin 1:32.30
Morbidelli 1:37.90 (Ferrari)
Capelli 1:46.53 (Active suspension car)
Paul
|
837.345 | MGN and ROCCHI = 2 different W12s | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Thu Apr 12 1990 16:30 | 22 |
| re .339
Wrong, John. The MGN W12 is still in its infancy mostly due to lack
of funds although the concept of valveless inlet is being studied
by a number of manufacturers. The Rocchi W12 is similar to the MGN
only at the block level (3 banks of 4 cyl with the 2 side banks
angled at 60 degrees around the central bank). The heads are
traditionnal ones with valves and camshafts.
A W12 can be an excellent choice, because:
- it is a 12 cyl engine
- it is very compact (like a 1165cc straight 4)
now the negative point is that is has a complicated exhaust system
with 3 times 4 pipes. The acoustic harmonization is not easy to
realise. On the other hand Franco Rocchi is far from being a novice
engineer. He was a chief motorist at Ferrari for something like
25 years, in the Forghieri team. His principal achievement is the
3ltr boxer 12 of the 312.
I'm not sure about the LIFE story.
|
837.346 | W18 | OASS::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Thu Apr 12 1990 18:13 | 4 |
| Was Rocchi involved in the Ferrari W18 experimental engine they built?
It was sometime in the early 70's I think, I can look it up tonight.
Dave
|
837.347 | Ayrhead scores a win in the psych-out GP | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Fri Apr 13 1990 13:49 | 25 |
| On the Ayrhead to Ferrari soap opera:
Great theater. Don't see how Prost can come out looking good: he has
a one-year contract, so Fiorio would fail to do his job if he weren't
open to replacements. As for Mansell, he is on the last year of his
contract. Looks like Prost has been put in the position of seeming to
dictate who replaces him. And the stories seem to imply that Prost
will fail to honor his current contract if Senna is signed to replace
him -- after his contract expires. Hope the rumored Ferrari is better
than their current PR.
Imola results I've seen look good for a real race. But whatever is
wrong with Williams-Renault? If Renault is serious about winning, they
could start by paying whatever it takes to get Alesi tied down for the
future. And that ought to be do-able: can't see McLaren signing him
for next year.
How's this for a 1991 lineup:
Ferrari: Ayrhead and Larini (or one of 43 other young Italians)
McLaren: Alesi and Berger
Williams: Prost and Mansell
?
Don
|
837.348 | Senna's pod | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Apr 17 1990 09:23 | 12 |
| Prost will probably set-up the Ferrarri as well as he did the McLaren,
leaving Ferrari at the top of the constructors championship for 1990.
In any event, Honda will have a very shaky financial 90/91 so I don't
expect too much of them toward the end of this season.
Prost on the other hand will see the season out very firmly in the
driving seat at Ferrari (driver wise) and take his option.
Agreed with .347 The Ferrari second driver for '91 will be Italian,
and about time too.
George Frost
|
837.349 | Mansell to topple Faldo? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Tue Apr 17 1990 10:00 | 21 |
| Some of "Our Nige"'s recent comments make me wonder if he'll still
be around if he doesn't get the title this year. He's been quoted
about wanting to win the British Open golf championship and he is
a scratch golfer. If he does lose out at Ferrari the only alternative
I could see would be Williams, but they must be keen to get a Frenchman
in (or rather Renault must be) maybe someone like Alain Menu. I
don't see Alesi going anywhere with Honda power coming.
I agree that Ferrari will probably look for an Italian soon, Fiat
must be pushing them. Maybe Capelli if he doesn't believe in the
new engine. That would be a shame as Capelli and Gugelmin come across
as a good pairing looking for a better car.
If Senna goes from McLaren though, I wouldn't be surprised to see
McNish make the jump up if he's doing OK in F3000.
I don't know..........two races down, 14 to go and the musical chairs
has started already. Maybe when we're back to races every couple
of weeks the racing will be back to the fore in the news again.
Paul
|
837.350 | Engines etc. | VANISH::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Tue Apr 17 1990 11:01 | 33 |
| I didn't realise that there were two W12 engines in development
so assumed that it had to be the same one in the LIFE car. W
engines have been experimented with from time to time, for various
uses but as yet appear not to have been successful. Apart from the
drawbacks given earlier you have to find a way to incorporate 12
connecting rods on your 1172cc crankshaft!. Whether the latest
technology can overcome these problems has yet to be seen. We
didn't think that the V10 was a viable configuration until somebody
came out and did it.
I didn't realise the significance of this Ilmor deal until reading
an article over the weekend which explained that this company is
the manufacturer of the 'Chevrolet' engine which is currently
dominant in US CART racing, getting the better of the Cosworth,
Judd and Porsche engines that run there. So they do have a
pedigree. Ilmor are located in Northampton (where Cosworth are) and
surprise, surprise was started by a couple of ex Cosworth people
about 7 years ago. They even kept Cosworth tradition going by
creating the company name from their own names.
Did a previous note infer that Alain Menu was French?, I thought
he was Swiss. Anyway I happened to see him come second in a F3000
race yesterday.
Also at this meeting there was a F3 car in the Camel (Lotus) yuk
yellow livery. It managed about 400 yards past the start line
before pulling off!.
Isn't it a bit early for the musical chairs bit. Traditionally
this occurs at Monza time not Imola.
-John
|
837.351 | Good Day's racing for #7 | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Tue Apr 17 1990 11:21 | 23 |
| John, it was quite good at Thruxton yesterday wasn't it? The two
F3 Mika's looked very impressive. The failed Camel car was Paul
Stewart who watched the race from the banking near us. My vote for
best looking car was Rydell's F3000 finished in near pure metallic
British Racing Green. Shame he spun out.
I thought Menu was French, but am willing to be corrected. He
definately should have won yesterday but for a careless trip over
a back marker.
Anyway, according to Leyton House, they are still working extensively
with the Judds for this season and have another two Imola sessions
booked before the race. They also tested at Silverstone last week
and showed some improvement.
As for the musical chairs, last year it never really stopped in
the lower half of the field, maybe this year the trend has moved
into Division 1!
Has anybody heard if there is any driver mug/desperate enough to
sign up with Life?
Paul
|
837.352 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Apr 17 1990 19:51 | 2 |
| Yes, Menu is Swiss. The next frenchman on the F1 prospects list
is probably Erik Comas (who is in Alesi's position a year ago).
|
837.353 | I was there too | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Wed Apr 18 1990 09:04 | 6 |
| Yes, Thruxton was great - I was on the banking at the Complex, too -
didn't see you, though! The F3 race was great - expect one or both
these boys to be in F1 next year or the year after. The F3000 race was
better than I expected it to be as well - after practice I didn't
expect menu to hold off the Mansell machine for so long - pity the man
himself didn't take out the second car!
|
837.355 | Look for the Autofile Umbrella! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Wed Apr 18 1990 11:59 | 12 |
| Apologies to Monsieur Menu for the change of home territory. Given
Mr Monteverdi's patriotism, maybe he'll be partnering little Gregor
next year when Lheto gets a decent drive :-)
The other surprise at Thruxton was the speed *and* smoothness of
Christian Fittipaldi. Given his connections and nationality I'd
expect him to be up there in F1 in the next season or so. As for
the rest, they're either too young or seemingly going nowhere, Higgins
and Stewart Jr being the obvious examples. Paul Warwick could be
in with a shout tho' now he's got a decent chassis.
Paul
|
837.356 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Wed Apr 18 1990 14:15 | 34 |
| Oh well since there's no F1 races at present I suppose we
could have a little sojourn into the breeding ground formulae.
I wonder how long it will be before F3000 takes over from F3
as the prime second division in Britain. The British F3
championship has been the breeding ground for F1 for a good many
years. F2 never really filled this slot and niether has F3000
taken off in this way. The problem may well have been that
they were both european championships and as such cost an
awful lot more to compete in. Many people felt they could get
just as good exposure from the UK F3 instead. This seemed to
attract other aspiring drivers on the bandwagon effect.
Now that the UK F3000 championship is gaining ground it seems
to be splitting interest. Certainly F3000 is far more like F1
since the cars are essentially F1 cars of the early 80s. I
prefer F3000 because it's more spectacular and expect it to
become even stronger in the future.
The saloon cars at Thruxton were good for entertainment. In the
Group C class there was a very interesting struggle between an
Astra GTE, Golf 16V, and a Honda Civic. The latter had the most
amazing line into the first sharp corner of the complex, seeming
to leap into the air and land at 90� to the course it had been
taking!. The car park may well have been full of 205Gti but none
compete. The reason is that the 8V engines aren't capable of
being developed to the power necessary to have any chance - pity.
In group A one of the Sierra Cosworths kept us entertained by
taking the right hander off the pit straight with his front wheels
pointing to the left. Talk about oversteer!. I was surprised he
finished the race.
-John
|
837.357 | Oh for the good old days! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Wed Apr 18 1990 16:33 | 32 |
| Re -1
At the moment the British F3000 seems to be for ex F3 drivers who
cannot get finance for the full European series, plus a few wealthy
amateurs/youngsters with no real aspirations for the top league.
The involvement of Mansell in the Madgewick team could well change
this, plus the cost of running in F3. This is now #100k plus for
a full season. This seems to be killing class B.
Of the current crop of drivers Hakkinen, Salo, Fittipaldi,
Warwick and maybe Noda look to be ready for Euro F3000 at least,
with Plata, Palhares and maybe Genie in two years time.
Most if not all of the current crop of stars in F1 have come from
F3 rather than F3000 (Alesi excepted) whereas the also rans have
come via F3000 if memory serves correct.
F3 probably needs more variety in the chassis department. Ralt are
trouncing Reynard hands down at the moment (I think its that way
round!) but it would be interesting to see what would happen if
people like Williams, Lotus, Ferrari, McLaren etc started building
chassis for the lower Formulae like in the good old days of F2.
One of my fondest memories is of Rindt driving a yellow and green
F2 Lotus at Crystal Palace.
F1 at the moment is so exclusive. The drivers and teams seem to
be involved in nothing else, not even WSPC, with the exception of
Leyton House with their F3000, F3 and Japan F3000 teams. I wonder
if we will see things like Senna in a saloon car race like Clark
used to do?
Paul
|
837.358 | F3-F2(3000)-F1 | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Apr 18 1990 19:55 | 5 |
| I think I've seen something about the obligation for a driver to
have some F3000 experience before he/she gets the F1 superlicence
from FISA.
Has anyone seen this ?
|
837.359 | Put the wrinklies back with the smoothies! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Thu Apr 19 1990 08:52 | 25 |
| re a couple back. I was surprised at the high standard of RACING in the
F3000 race - I'd expected the F3 dice between the Finns to be good but
the struggle between Chaves (who has dropped down from the Euro F3000
series, presumably because of finance) and Menu was great while Rydell
was no slouch either. The trouble was, there were not all that many
decent cars in it - Richard Jones should have either stayed at home or
tried it in the Formula Vee race!
re -1, I didn't think F3000 was neccessary for a superlicence but some
sort of international competition is. Senna and Brundle, for example,
never drove F3000 but went straight from F3 into F1 and I don't think
this has changed (unless Balestre has had a brainwave in the last five
minutes!).
Finally, talking of the "good old days", I remember seeing Graham Hill
among several other notables at a F2 race at Thruxton many years ago.
Whoever said it a few back is right, it's a damn shame that current
contracts for F1 drivers almost exclusively ban them from competing in
other areas of motorsport. I, too, would dearly love to see Senna
planted in a Reynard in the middle of the current crop of F3
up-and-comingmen and see how he performed. Not such a walkover as F1
has been the last couple of years, I feel!!!
Colin
F3000 but
|
837.360 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Thu Apr 19 1990 10:13 | 4 |
| As I understand it F3 and F3000 can both qualify a driver for
a superlicence. Not specifically necessary to do one or t'other.
-John
|
837.361 | on the rail | YIPPEE::FILHOL | | Fri Apr 20 1990 09:25 | 2 |
| Let's get back to the F1 !
|
837.362 | Mansell out of Imola?? | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Fri Apr 20 1990 10:14 | 12 |
| Just heard on the news that Mansell has a suspected fracture of the
wrist following a pre-Imola practice shunt. Not sure if this means he
will miss the race...
The new Tyrrell drooped it's snoot at a recent shake-down at
Silverstone, Alesi only managing three laps! Ken said that he thought
it was broken before the shake-down due to testing at the factory!
Foitek has his first run in the Onyx but was uncomfortable. Benetton's
new B190 went well while Lotus also expressed themselves satisfied with
progress Warwick made with the modified 102.
Colin
|
837.363 | Spectator killed at Donnington | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Mon Apr 23 1990 12:32 | 30 |
| There's note for racing disasters but seeing how this is single
seaters, so I'll put this in here.
Yesterday at Donnington a spectator was killed as a result of an
accident involving Allan McNish. The information on teletext was brief
but the basic story was:
There was serveral cars involved in an accident during the F3000
race, one of which was McNish. It would appear that he swerved to avoid
the tangled cars and in the process got airbourne. The car cleared a
retaining wall fatally injuring a spectator and injuring several
others. The spectator was rushed to hospital but later died.
This is surely a sad day for motorsport when a spectator gets killed. I
have no idea at what point in the circuit the accident was , one can
only assume that is was a high speed accident for the car to gain
enough height to clear the wall and for that matter clear the grass
between the track and the wall. My recollection of Donnington , there
is a good deal of grass between retaining walls and the track. The only
places I could think of are the bend at the botton of craner curves
before starkys bridge and Mcleans and the approach to it.
Was any one there who can fill in the blanks.
Garry
|
837.364 | Mansell says he's OK | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon Apr 23 1990 14:33 | 5 |
| Nigel Mansell, recuperating in the IOM, says that he definitely
will be fit to race at Imola. The wrist is only very badly
swollen.
-John
|
837.365 | Imola testing | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Apr 23 1990 17:15 | 6 |
| It's been a very bad week last week in Imola. Mostly rain with wind.
Most teams present. Lap times dont really reflect the real situation.
Best lap of the week: Riccardo Patrese, Williams-Renault 1'25"242
(Prost had managed 1'24"746 on Apr 9th, dry track)
|
837.366 | Imola etc. | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Tue Apr 24 1990 13:08 | 10 |
| re. last. It can't have been that wet if the times are that
close to the best achieved. In fact both Williams were faster
(just) than the McLarens. Prost decided against running in the
session in which Mansell came to grief.
Incidentally YIPPEE::FILHOL (sorry didn't catch the name), your
opinions would carry a lot more weight if there was a contributory
content to them. Unfortunately I'm unable to detect any.
-John
|
837.367 | more on Imola | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Apr 24 1990 14:48 | 12 |
| Last sunday noon TF1 (Auto Moto) showed 5 minutes of Imola, including
Mansell's spin (it was pouring rain then), and they said that the
weather was, overall, pretty bad with a lot of rain. They showed
some periods of time where the track was dry. The best laps were
obviously managed during those dry moments.
I've heard that Alesi did beautiful things with the new Tyrrell
(I don't have the times but the reporter said that he went as fast
as Boutsen in the Williams whatever that means). Is it Alesi or
the new Tyrrell ? but the combination seemed to go pretty fast on
a circuit where engine power is the KEY.
|
837.368 | Gory details for those interested | RUTILE::SMITH_A | No-one puts baby in the corner | Wed Apr 25 1990 09:26 | 19 |
| re. < Note 837.363 by COMICS::COOMBER "It works better if you plug it in" >
-< Spectator killed at Donnington >-
The French Minuit Sport showed a report of the F3000 at Donnington,
which included footage of the fatal crash.
McNish and another car were involved in a side on collision which
caused McNish to be airbourne and helped the car up the earth bank,
which acted like a take-off ramp. The car somersaulted a few times
then hit the circuit wall, protecting an isolated group of spectators by
their parked cars. Hitting the wall caused the engine and rear wheels
to seperate from the front of the car and it was this that continued
through the parked cars and spectators eventually hitting the
unfortunate guy as he was running away.
Can't comment as to the safety of the track as I havn't been there,
and the camera angles don't really give a good impression of the
surroundings.
|
837.369 | Trying to place things .... | CSSE::WAITE | | Wed Apr 25 1990 15:38 | 2 |
| Which corner did this all happen on? Being in the US I didn't see the
TV coverage but I have been to Donnington several times and know the circut.
|
837.370 | Corner unknown or missed in French translation | RUTILE::SMITH_A | No-one puts baby in the corner | Wed Apr 25 1990 16:15 | 3 |
| Sorry can't help - though you could check the F3000 note in this
conference. I noticed it after I'd entered my original note.
|
837.371 | Motoring News Says | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Wed Apr 25 1990 17:25 | 24 |
| Report in motoring news says/shows that the accident happened shortly
before the Dunlop bridge at esses. The cars rubbed noses approaching
esses at which point McNish was ahead of Naspetti. Both car went right
hand down lots into the concrete retaining wall. Naspetti car spun and
came to a halt just before where the new circuit joins the old.
McNish's car Barrel rolled along the top of the retaining wall before
launching off the wall into the spectatators. The car broke up throwing
engine,gearbox and suspension around the place. Spectators were hit by
pieces of the rear end suspension , a mechanic to 1 of the renault
turbo racer was hit by a lump of suspension , he later died in hospital
of a heart attack. A marshall that was reported to have serious head
injuries is making good progress.
McNish suffered no physical injuries nor did Naspetti. There is going
to be an inquest into this but the RACMSA and FISA have already stated
that they don't think greater saftey measures in this case would of
prevented all possible eventuality particulaty when bits of cars are
airbourne.
Garry
|
837.372 | Put F3000 replies in the F3000 note - this is F1! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Thu Apr 26 1990 09:10 | 4 |
| My M.N. says it differently! I have posted a reply in the F3000
note but can't remember which one that was.
Colin
|
837.373 | Mansell Out of Love with Prost? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Thu Apr 26 1990 10:06 | 29 |
| More for the roundabout......
Mansell is quoted in A/Sport as not being willing to be anybody's
No2 next year. Also the Mansell/Prost relationship is wearing thin,
with "Our Nige" talking of a one way flow of information and Prost's
fluency in Italian getting him preferential treatment. Mansell was
seen around the Williams moter home extensively at Imola.
Other bits
*More* changes at Onyx and a probable move to a Swiss base
No EuroBrun at Imola and no major sponsor signed yet
Rumours of Yamaha engines for Brabham next year
Mauro Baldi reported to be a front runner for the Mexican Glas-Lambo
car which is possibly having a demo run at the Meixcan GP
Loads of stuff on Imola testing, but the times are spoiled by rain.
Alesi was second fastest tho'. I haven't time to put all the times
in but if anybody wants specifics I can probably put them in later.
Away from F1 - a third Andretti Jr will be trying to qualify for
Indianapolis and Paul Stewart Racing has bowed to the inevitable
and switched to Ralt chassis in F3.
Paul
|
837.374 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Thu Apr 26 1990 14:11 | 29 |
| Oh so Mansell's not getting on too well with Prost eh?. Prost
getting better treatment etc. Now don't I remember this from
the Mansell/Piquet days.
Well I'll suggest a reason for this trait. The likes of Prost,
Senna, Piquet are very good developers of cars. They have the
capability to feed back to mechanics/designers what's actually
happening and thus generate those fine improvements that make all
the difference. This is not Mansell's strong point to say the
least. Not surprisingly the team responds enthusiastically towards
those who contribute to improving their lot, and less so to those
who complain that things aren't right but don't constructively
say why. It doesn't seem to have taken long to take hold in this
relationship, not least because Prost, with Senna, is probably the
best at this sort of thing.
Anyone remember that race where Piquet chose a different final
drive ratio to Mansell and Mansell blamed Piquet/The team/anyone
else available but never said why he didn't have the sense to
choose it himself?.
I would be interested in the Imola tests. This race looks to be
boiling up to be the closest for a very, very long time. The
early season showed how the gap has narrowed between the teams
and now we seem to have the Ferrari,McLaren and Williams neck and
neck with the added interest of the new Tyrrell (apparently going
well) and new Benetton too.
-John
|
837.375 | Brabham-Yamaha Confirmed | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Fri Apr 27 1990 14:27 | 6 |
| Today's paper says the Brabham-Yamaka deal is definite for '91.
The engine will be a new V12 not a development of the old, and
unsuccessful V8 as used by Zakspeed(deceased).
-John
|
837.376 | March get Ferrari treatment. | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Mon Apr 30 1990 10:17 | 8 |
| Yesterday I was speaking to someone Leyton House March and he confirmed
that digital are sponsoring the team ,from what he said it sound very
much like they get the same treatment as Ferrari. We are providing CAD
systems to them . He did say that you can expect things change for the
better soon but did not go any further.
Garry
|
837.377 | And he said to me...... | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Wed May 02 1990 14:38 | 34 |
| To stir the pre Imola lethargy a bit, today's gossip from Autosport:
Alesi is said to be top of Ferrari's list now. AS reckons there
will definately be one free seat at Modena and Fiorio is after Alesi.
Others in the market could be Footwork who have lots of Yen to lure
a name driver for the Porsche project.
Prost smashed the Fiorano lap record by over a second, but still
not in a 641/2. Rumours place the 641/2 engine at 700bhp+ in qualifying
spec.
New AGS launched last week, much more compact than last year's.
Designation is JH25.
Speculation that the US GP may move to a stadium car park in Hawaii.
(No its not April 1st) Apparently the Long Beach Promoter is running
a Group C race there in March '91. No word as to when the US GP
would change though.
Larrousse still chasing Renault engines for '91. If they fail, they
will go after "customer" Ford V8s which are expected to go to two
teams as Benetton go to a Ford V12.
Life looks to be distinctly dodgy at Life. No new driver, the designer
left, no money - how long can they survive?
On the engine front, with Ferrari supplying two teams, Honda upto
three, Lambo on three, Subaru, Neotech, Yamaha, three Fords and
the Ilmor, I make that 15 teams in '91 who *won't* be using Cosworth
or Judd. Looks like the old DFV/DFZ/DFR is finally sailing into
the sunset.........
Paul
|
837.379 | Now, if >I< were Alesi . . . . . . . | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Thu May 03 1990 00:14 | 6 |
| re; last
In Tyrell, Alesi will be a hero. In McLaren or Ferrari, he'll be
world champion.
Don
|
837.380 | Stay with Tyrrell | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Thu May 03 1990 14:14 | 8 |
| The way things appear to be going Alesi will have a better
chance of the World Championship in the Tyrrell than anything
else. It's performance with an engine well down on power in
comparison with the 'top' teams is most impressive.
But a week, let alone a year is a long time in motor racing.
-John
|
837.381 | A= Alain or Alesi ? | YIPPEE::FILHOL | | Thu May 03 1990 15:42 | 13 |
| In a recent article in a french newspaper, Alesi said that he had no
reason to stay on more year in a Tyrell.
It seems through the article that:
- Alesi and Ken are not really good friends, but Alesi feels very well
with the technical team.
- Alesi is very confident in his qualities, but still very clever.
On the way back to Brazil, he wanted to take the same plane as A.Prost
to spend the trip speaking with him about, about F1 of course !
He doesn't want to be shrunk by the Racing World !
From a place between Monaco and Circuit Paul Ricard,
Bruno.
|
837.382 | Better a rich driver than a poor champion | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Thu May 03 1990 16:20 | 7 |
| If I were Alesi, I'd join a 4M pound a year salary team and remain
"another" driver, anytime, rather than betting on a 100:1 chance of
becoming world champion in a 1M pound (or less) a year salary team.
Economoically yours,
Chris
|
837.383 | more than this | YIPPEE::FILHOL | | Fri May 04 1990 14:15 | 15 |
| The new cars :
Tyrrell 019:It is interesting to see what could bring the new front and
the new techniques used to push the wind that arrives from the front
(!) to the sides of the car. This must reduce the wind pressure that
exists under the flat bottom of the car.
From now on the new Tyrrell was slower than the "old" one but let's
what and see...
Ferrari 641/2: No difference apparently but little differences that
will make big improuvement says Scalabroni. The engine is the same as
Interlagos.
Benetton B190: just an evolution of the 189. 3 or 4 kilos heavier !
Alesi said that "Tyrrell with the v10 Honda won't be enough.."
Bruno.
|
837.384 | The Racing is about to start again | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Wed May 09 1990 13:18 | 17 |
| After the long, long interval it's time for another race!.
Anyone care to predict Imola?, usually I'm game to have a
stab (albeit always wrong) but this race looks to be very
close indeed. Apart from suggesting that the winner will
be either a Ferrari, McLaren or Williams that is.
Isn't it time we had 20 races in a season. Only 16 at present
and with big gaps between March and November. Candidates for
races not in this years calendar may be - British No2, Austria,
Scandinavia, Argentina, Russia (coming into fashion), South Africa
(coming back into fashion), another Far East race etc. Plenty
of scope really. Even with 20 races at 2 week intervals there's
still a good sized close season as well. Come on Bernie, lets
see more action.
-John
|
837.385 | Alesi on a roll | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Fri May 11 1990 10:35 | 18 |
| Last week's testing at Imola saw the McHonda's 1 & 2, followed by
Mansell and.............Alesi!! Prost was 5th fastest. Autosport
reported general amazement at the Tyrrell's performance on what
is supposedly a power circuit. Alesi must now be considered a potential
winner at Monaco at least.
Capelli had a huge off damaging neck and knee bits. He is due to
have a medical before practice.
There is also a lengthy interview with "le Prof" in which he reveals
that one of his options for this year was to found a new team with
Barnard and Renault but he was unsure they had enough backing!
My prediction for Sunday - a real close one with Alesi mixing it
with the McHonda's and Ferrari's, and possibly even sneaking it
if the V10/12s get marginal on fuel.
Paul
|
837.386 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Fri May 11 1990 11:05 | 14 |
| Interesting, but you have to remember that the Tyrrell is on
Pirrelis and it's acknowledged that their qualifiers (one
assumes the times were set on qualifiers) are better than the
Goodyears, an advantage that may not be transferred to the
race.
I'd agree that Monaco will offer a great opportunity since
getting on the front row is so important and the US GP showed
that the Tyrrell is competitive on a street circuit.
Were these Imola times set in the new Tyrrell or the old one?,
Is the new one really better?.
-John
|
837.388 | Why not ! | YIPPEE::FILHOL | | Fri May 11 1990 12:58 | 12 |
| let's say, for Imola:
1.Senna
2.Berger
3.Boutsen
4.Prost
5.Alesi
6.Patrese
With a big engine problem for Mansell...
I hope this will not come true !
Bruno.
|
837.389 | Looks good for Sunday | COMICS::MILLAR | No Porn please I'm Graphic | Fri May 11 1990 13:29 | 12 |
| Well,
It looks like the BBC are going to show the whole race on Sunday.
That's unless the weather is nice and they can show somebody preparing
to think about perhaps maybe running towards one of those chaps in
white with a cricket bat in has hand...
Here's hoping
Bruce
|
837.390 | Last one | ULYSSE::FROST | | Fri May 11 1990 14:07 | 4 |
| agree with .388 however with Prost 3rd. This will be the last outright win
for Senna this season - always an opinion of course.
George Frost
|
837.391 | good sensation ? | YIPPEE::FILHOL | | Fri May 11 1990 14:46 | 1 |
| Do you know who will carry the embedded camera ??
|
837.392 | fridays proctice | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Fri May 11 1990 18:16 | 16 |
| Grid after fridays timed practice:
1. Berger
2. Senna
3. Patrase
4. Mansell
I'm not sure of the rest but prost was about 6th . Martini was in the
top 10 but he had a very heavy shunt in practice distroying the car in a
big way.
Garry (who will be working all weeking)
|
837.393 | Martini, shaken or stirred? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Sat May 12 1990 10:28 | 8 |
| About Martini and his shunt.
I only caught a snatch of reportage on the French radio yesterday
which mentioned a nasty accident and much broken bones.
Was this Martini? can somebody confirm pse.
George Frost (also a weekend worker - this time only)
|
837.394 | confirmation , Martini ,yes | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Sat May 12 1990 16:15 | 10 |
| Yes it was for sure Martini. The report on ceefax said that he went off
the track , not sure where, across the grass and hit the retaining
wall. The report said that the front of the car was bent at right
angles to the rest of the car , not sure what they mean by that .
If its a carbon fibre chassis then I would have expected it to
crack,break or something if it was that heavy but bend , beats me.
Best I can do from memory.
Garry
|
837.395 | Great start to Europe | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Mon May 14 1990 11:29 | 36 |
| All very quiet about yesterday?
Good race wasn't it. Mansell was very unlucky, although if I were
in his shoes I'd be fuming with Ferrari for their failure to fix
this "smoking engine" problem. He showed superb car control though
when forst De Cesaris and then Berger offed him. I hasten to add
that Berger was far less culpable than De Cesaris.
As for the rest, it looks like we're in for a real tussle for the
rest of the year. Team Perfect are not so anymore, Willaims are
getting faster and staying consistent, Team Lotus are on their way
back with a solid 7th and 8th, and Leyton House were well up the
grid, even if the race was a write off.
I was unimpressed with Prost yesterday. He made a blatant error
in changing tyres, and after that never looked to have much real
aggression. Nannini didn't look to have too much trouble holding
him off.
The UK TV coverage was excellent too. I particularly liked one
Murray/James exchange:
Murray - Berger is still rather uncomfortable in the McLaren, he'd
like an additional 10cm of space.
James - What you really mean Murray is that he's in absolute screaming
agony.
Maybe that was the reason he had to back off. If it is, then McLaren
have a real problem for the rest of the season.
Prediction for Monaco - Senna and Alesi to do a repeat of Phoenix,
with possibly Donnelly chasing hard too (he was superb at the
Birmingham Super Prix last year).
Paul
|
837.396 | Imola - gossip and thoughts | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under 'Common Knowledge' | Mon May 14 1990 11:33 | 70 |
| Imola weekend.
Snippets gleaned from Eurosport, plus some opinions - anyone got any
interesting ones from the BBC?
- From practice: Martini has a chipped ankle - could be OK for Monaco.
- Anyone see Senna's pole lap - absolutely fantastic. It was just at the limit
between control and raggedness - and (unlike Mansell); he planned it around
a clear track.
- Congratulations to Patrese - well overdue this one. (His previous 2 GPs
have always been regarded as "dubious" in some circles - e.g was he push
started at Monaco when he span off?) No doubting this one.
- Particular commiserations to Senna - don't think that he would have been
touchable if he hadn't run over the debris. Also, bad luck Mansell; though
the way he was driving, I'm suprised that he lasted as long as he did.
- Anyone else suprised that Senna gave up so easily? A couple of years ago, I'm
sure that he'd have tried to do a Villeneuve and get back to the pits?
Sign of mellowing?
- What happened to Berger - why did he lose his position to Patrese? Wasn't
clear from the commentary.
- Boutsen went with gear selection problems - managed to change down from
3rd to 1st (ouch!).
- Mansell's engine officially went because of debris in the intakes, collected
after his coming together with Berger, sent the temperature sky-high.
Personally, after seeing crud coming out of the back of his car as early
as lap 2, I'd be suprised if this was the sole reason (convenient for
Ferrari though).
- Mansell was so pumped up afterwards that he head-butted the pit
wall - needed three stiches. Complaining about his "friend Gerhard; how
could he do this?". Must admit that Gerhard seemed a bit reckless to me - went
somewhat beyond protecting the racing line! I know JL will disagree with me,
but I thought that Mansell's car control at 195 m.p.h. was amazing - he
didn't even touch his brakes (thus not flat spotting the tyres), and came out
facing forward at a reasonable speed.
- I think that Berger is too hard on his car. Two races in a row, I believe
that he should have won, but had to back off in the late stages of the
race (fuel economy or tyres, perhaps?). I don't think that his
apprenticeship driving fork lift trucks and lorries in his father's haulage
business, have helped here! Shame - I'd like him to be a top-level
contender.
- Interview with Postlewaithe. Said that if the new Tyrrell was driven at
racing speed, upside down in the Monaco tunnel, it would stick to the roof.
In otherwords the ground affect (shouldn't call it that though, should I?)
is greater than the weight of the car.
- Prost was very quiet. Hope that it was a mechanical problem; otherwise it
looks as though he isn't really a contender this year (despite his good
win in Brazil). What does anyone else think?
- Great that the championship hasn't been sewn up by Senna yet (4 points
separating top 4 drivers); however I can't see his run of bad luck
continuing much longer.
- Great comment from John Watson about Oliver Grouillard. This guy baulked two
good practice laps (he was sleeping), and was slow to get out of the way
of the leaders during the race. Watson said that he'd had a lot of good
training from Arnoux (they were team mates at Ligier last season)!
Monaco should be good - anyone else fancy Alesi's chances - as long as he
doesn't try Postlewaithe's party trick?!
|
837.397 | | MARVIN::RUSLING | MicroServer Phase V Session Control | Mon May 14 1990 11:58 | 5 |
| Snippets, according to the BBC, Nigel only lost around 2.5 seconds on his spin.
Watching it again, I thought that Berger was blameless. Nigel drove a good,
agressive race. What the devil was Prost playing at?
Dave
|
837.398 | Imola | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon May 14 1990 12:29 | 45 |
| * I thought it was one of the best races for sometime and
the closeness of it all augers well for the quality of
this years championship.
* Patrese's first genuine win, after nearly 200 races.
* What happened to Senna's wheel?. They just don't break like
that do they?. Maybe the tyre blew in a big way first and the
wheel went on contact with the ground.
* Mansell's pirouette was a classic example of what's best and
worst about him. Trying to overtake on the outside at that point
was really stupid, but the car control and exit was superb. I
was getting the impression that his engine was going to last
until the off so perhaps Ferrari are clean here. Blaming Berger
just makes it worse, he (Berger) was just following his, ie
the racing line.
* Uncharacteristic poor choice of tyres for Prost it seems. But
bearing in mind that Nannini set fastest lap whilst holding off
Prost I think it's unfair to say that he wasn't trying.
* The new Benetton is clearly that little bit better than the old
one, now if only they'd change the colour scheme.
* Nannini got the better of Piquet, for the first time this season.
I got the impression that Piquet must have had an off somewhere
since he suddenly lost a lot of places early on.
* Alesi was immensely disappointing. It seems to me that this driver
is now suffering from a bad bout of overconfidence and is getting
wild.
* The new Tyrrell, first time I've even seen it, certainly looks
the part and as evidenced by the start of the race when Alesi
was up with the leaders is very fast through the corners. Wonder
which team will be the first to copy this arrangement, it surely
won't be long before they do.
* I expect Alesi to be on pole at Monaco, but he won't win.
* Both Lotuses finished. Seems the engine bugs must have been fixed.
Now they might be able to concentrate on making it faster.
-John
|
837.399 | For the uneducated amongst us... | IOSG::MARSHALL | I have a cunning plan... | Mon May 14 1990 12:48 | 1 |
| What's IMOLA please?
|
837.400 | | FORTY2::NAYLER | It's me Honest | Mon May 14 1990 12:54 | 6 |
|
A place, a town in Italy.......at least it was last time I looked.
Mike.
|
837.401 | Forza Nigel | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Get the British GP back to Aintree! | Mon May 14 1990 13:19 | 22 |
| re -3
The Grauniad reckons Senna's wheel broke up after hitting debris
from the Nakajima/Capelli accident. As per another previous on Ayrton
mellowing, by the look of the TV he was trying to get back to the
pits but lost it when the trye deflated totally under braking. Once
he was in the gravel trap he was a gonner.
The film of Nannini's accident in practice on the highlight's program
was pretty dramatic, as was the film on Mansell just missing Barilla.
BTW did anybody else see the bit at the beginning of Grandstand
of Mansell straight-lining one of the chicanes?
I partially agree about Alesi, he was a bit over aggressive at the
first corner, but he looked pretty controlled for the rest of the
race.
On the subject of Prost, I don't think he will have scored many
brownie points with the tifosi by his drive, unlike Mansell who
went out in a blaze of glory.
Paul
|
837.403 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under 'Common Knowledge' | Mon May 14 1990 14:00 | 7 |
| Just read the Swiss papers - apparently Berger's very apologetic; but says
that he was just following his racing line - didn't see Mansell until it
had happened. John Watson thought that Berger was culpable - with his years
of experience, he should have been using his mirrors rather than assuming.
Apparently Berger had problems with brakes, and then later with fuel cutting
out - maybe this is why Patrese suddenly got past him?
|
837.404 | Poor Prost! | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Mon May 14 1990 14:01 | 17 |
| RE: The many comments on Prost at Imola --
After 40 wins, perhaps it's safe to assume he's 1) competitive and 2)
reasonably intelligent. ESPN had a lot of shots of Prost's car in the
last few laps of the race -- his engine or trans was clearly giving
out. He was smoking worse on every lap, so he may have been nursing
the car. Yes, the fanatics will rave about Nigel for a few days, but
Prost is driving for the championship.
Anyone notice that Prost was driving the "old" 641, while Mansell was
in the 641/2?
Three races, three winners, three different makes. It doesn't get any
better!
Don
|
837.405 | More bits | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon May 14 1990 14:05 | 10 |
| Re. Imola. Well officially it's called the San Marino Grand Prix,
but really that's just an excuse for Italy to have two GPs and
this one happens to be held at Imola.
The Times says that Piquet did indeed have a a tangle with, well
you could have guessed, Alesi. I don't remember seeing this on the
box though.
Mansell is quoted in the Times as saying "I can't believe what my
friend Gerhard did to me", and "The engine gave out without warning".
|
837.406 | Ooops forgot | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon May 14 1990 14:24 | 4 |
| Mansell also says he thinks the FIA should be doing something
about these incidents. ie De Cesaris, Berger.
-John
|
837.407 | | FORTY2::BETTS | | Mon May 14 1990 14:40 | 11 |
|
How can Mansell say that the engine gave without warning? It had
been puffing smoke for ages - in fact it started smoking when he
had that dice with Alesi (?) early in the race. I wonder if he
over-revved it then?
I was surprised when he tried to overtake Berger, why didn't he
take the inside line? Without doubt, his car control is simply
incredible, but he does seem to rely on it rather a lot.
Bill.
|
837.408 | | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Mon May 14 1990 14:43 | 13 |
| >>
Anyone notice that Prost was driving the "old" 641, while Mansell was
in the 641/2?
>>
murray walker said that prost just had the old bodyshell on an equivalent car
to mansell (dunno why)
what was alboretto doing? (thought he didn't qualify)
...art
|
837.409 | After Imola, Monaco | YIPPEE::FILHOL | | Mon May 14 1990 14:47 | 38 |
|
Imola 1990
Results: Championship:
1.Patrese 1.Senna 13 pts
2.Berger 2.Prost 12
3.Nannini 3.Berger 12
4.Prost 4.Patrese 9
5.Piquet 5.Alesi 7
6.Alesi 6.Boutsen
Piquet 6
..Mansell 3
I surely saw the Ferrari of Prost with strange blue smoke during the
last laps. I understand now the behaviour of the driver !
Good Benetton with good Nannini...
Alesi on the road for Monaco ?
Let's say:
1.Senna
2.Mansell
3.Berger
4.Alesi
5.Prost
6.Piquet
See you soon !
Bruno.
|
837.410 | Fancy footwork by the director. | UNTADI::PAGE | Master of Desired Performance | Mon May 14 1990 15:09 | 9 |
| RE Alboreto... For some reason the TV director decided to show his
practice spin half way through the race. No idea why but then again
Alboreto is a) Italian and b) a former hero of the Tifosi.
As for Arrows... Looks like Footwork have bought a 'dud', even if they
do get to use Porsche engines next season.
Dave
|
837.411 | The dark and dim past of Mr Patrresse | UNTADI::PAGE | Master of Desired Performance | Tue May 15 1990 13:33 | 12 |
| Gents
There is much ado in certain sections of the press today about the
past life of Ricardo Patresse. How he has at last "come of age"
blah blah blah... However, there is also much being made of his
part in the 1978 Italian GP and the death of Ronnie Peterson
( he was even banned for a race as a result of this ). Personally
I can't remember any of this. Would anybody care to provide a
bit of "nostalgia"...
Dave
|
837.412 | A bit of Patrese history | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Tue May 15 1990 14:07 | 35 |
| Well, I can't help a lot even though I do remember the 78
season, which was the first year of Grand Prix on TV and thus
the first year you could follow the whole season in pictures.
Patrese spent many years being quick but erratic. It often
seemed to me that his place in F1 had as much to do with
Italian sponsorship money as anything else. He's a much better
driver now than he used to be, not any quicker but much more
consistent.
He'd previously won two GPs. One I think was South Africa 83,
where Piquet contesting the championship with Prost, who retired,
eased off and let Patrese through to go on to win. Lauda, in the
then new McLaren Turbo was going to walk away with it until his
turbo blew.
The other win was quite extraordinary. At Monaco, 82?, the race
was struck by very light rain about midway through and the overall
pace was much reduced. As it got to the last few laps the rain came
down more heavily. Patrese had been running at around 5th place
with a lap or two to go when all of a sudden all of the leaders
disappeared!. Some span off and others just ran out of fuel, the
slow pace having upset many fuel consumption predictions. True
to form Patrese also span off once he inherited the lead but was
able to restart and went on to win. Some say he had illegal help
getting restarted.
As for the Peterson disaster, I don't recall who else was involved.
Peterson's Lotus 79 was ill and he had to use the old 78 and thus
qualified way down the grid. There was a massive pile up at the
start and the car caught fire. The rest is sad history. Many think
that if there hadn't been 'team orders' at Lotus he and not Andretti
would have been world champion that year.
-John
|
837.413 | Unjust! | TPLAB::KENNEDY_C | The same old clich� | Tue May 15 1990 14:27 | 7 |
|
As I remember, the whole incident was caused by Fangio, who started the
race before all cars had come to a halt after the warm up lap. The cars
at the back came through on a flying start, hence the following mayhem.
Patrese was unjustly accused in my eyes, the real culprit was the guy
starting the race.
|
837.414 | Jumped start at Imola? | FORTY2::BETTS | | Tue May 15 1990 16:45 | 5 |
|
Talking of flying starts, did anyone else think that most of the
front rows' cars started well ahead of the Green at Imola?
Bill.
|
837.415 | Over the line | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue May 15 1990 16:54 | 6 |
| Absolutely, and for me Berger was blatantly ahead of the green light.
Stick by the rules I say, but then if they do a whole lot of people
are going to whinge again.
George Frost
|
837.416 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue May 15 1990 19:06 | 20 |
| Official statements about the race:
- Senna did not run over debris of Nakajima/Capelli cars. He started
with a broken rim. Confirmed by McLaren. Made the most stupid move
by not stopping in time.
- Prost received a lot of dust/clay/stones over his car when following
Nigel Mansell. The rear tyres became unbalanced forcing him to stop
at lap 28. Otherwise the Ferraris had planned a non-stop race.
- Mansell was driving the new chassis whereas Prost had the old
one. This resulted from a 5 hour briefing session saturday afternoon.
- Alesi had an engine problem with his race car just before the
start and had to revert to the T car. Unfortunately the tyre pressure
was incorrect. After his tyre stop he eventually drove a reasonably
good pace.
- The Honda engine of Berger's McLaren lost its power. The Ferrari's
were also handicapped by their engines.
|
837.417 | | ANNECY::MATTHEWS | M+M Enterprises. Thats the CATCH | Tue May 15 1990 19:19 | 4 |
| Why did Senna start with a broken rim ??? Wasn't there time to
change it, or were the mechanics just checking if he would notice :-)
Mark
|
837.418 | | MARVIN::RUSLING | MicroServer Phase V Session Control | Wed May 16 1990 10:29 | 4 |
| I also thought that everyone had head start on the lights, although that
could just have been the coverage on the TV.
Dave
|
837.419 | stupid Ayrton ! | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed May 16 1990 12:26 | 10 |
| Correct ! everybody jumped the start. The marshalls had a long
discussion during the GP, they watched the tape several times and
concluded that they could not take any other reasonable decision.
But you're right Berger started at least 1 sec before the green
light.
Senna declared that he felt he had a broken wheel in the 1st corner.
He also declared that he felt the situation was getting worse and
worse. He radioed the McLaren team while going down Rivazza on his
final lap. Why didn't he stop before ?
|
837.420 | Let it roll baby roll | UNTADI::PAGE | Master of Desired Performance | Wed May 16 1990 12:45 | 11 |
| The start of any GP is subject to "jumping"... Its the motorised
equivalent of the start of a 100m race, just think how many false
starts occur there as each runner anticipates the gun.
IMHO there is a lot to be said for a rolling start in F1 like you
get in Group C ,or Indy.
Dave
PS If anyone is in doubt just think back to the last Austrian GP
|
837.421 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Wed May 16 1990 13:52 | 40 |
| Some more bits gleaned from a rerun of the video.
* The entire field appeared to jump the lights, as seen on TV.
* Prost. Was running close behind Mansell then suddenly started
to drop back and lost places to Alesi, Piquet. When these
disappeared he started to pull back towards the leaders and
then stopped for tyres?. After the stop he was consistently
making ground on the leaders but when he reached Nannini the
latter seemed to speed up and the two of them made forward
progress but not enough despite setting fastest laps.
* Piquet was running very well at first until he came up upon
Alesi. They must have had a coming together which dropped
Piquet several places but delayed Alesi somewhat less though
it did allow Prost through.
* I think that the new Benetton is better than I at first thought.
Piquet was very quick before the off and both cars were on the
same lap as the leaders. Piquet perhaps isn't such a spent force
as has been suggested for the last year or two and could be
winning races again this season (with some assistance from the
fickle finger of fate).
* The Lotuses were quick down the straights but really poor
on the bends. Perhaps they need a bit of Tyrrell type
aerodynamics.
* Mansell effort at passing De Cesaris was ill judged. I'm afraid
I wouldn't blame the Italian for this one.
* Berger never moved an inch from his line when Mansell tried
to come past. Berger is a gentleman driver, of the Prost type,
he doesn't push people off.
* In years gone by Patrese would have had Mansell (and himself) off
the circuit when he came pushing through, now it seems discretion
is the better part of valour.
-John
|
837.422 | Warwick quick ???? | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Wed May 16 1990 14:49 | 7 |
| RE -1 and the lotus.
On Ceefax last night there was a in brief that said that Warwick
had set the fastest recorded average speed round Donnington at
129.29 mph.
Garry
|
837.423 | Questions | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Fri May 18 1990 16:50 | 7 |
| RE: .416
Any idea WHAT was said in that 5 hour briefing???
Did the Ferraris have their "new" engines? (With twin ignition?)
Don
|
837.424 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Sat May 19 1990 11:29 | 13 |
| Well it's probably impossible to break the secrets. All we know
is what they have decided to disclose. Officially the new engines
are not satisfactory : that means both the super high rev/high power
qualifiers as well as the improved race versions. Intro is officially
postponed to France GP early July.
The other thing that many drivers complained about is a minor point
with the new safety regulations : the mirrors are a terrible nuisance
in terms of aerodynamics. If you remember the terrible problems
encountered by the McLarens of Senna and Prost during qualifications
at Silverstone last year with their small rear air intake I can
trust Prost asking for the old chassis and bodywork (641) which
worked perfectly
|
837.425 | Spot the Star Hanger On | YUPPY::PATEMAN | We're proud of you Palace | Mon May 21 1990 10:04 | 23 |
| Brief aside:
At Brands yesterday for the F3/2 Mika's roadshow the announcer said
that some well known personages were to be seen in the pits supporting
their proteges, Brazilian ones.
Low and behold at lunchtime there were Wilson Fittipaldi and "three
times world champion" Nelson Piquet. My wife felt like saying in
a loud voice "I thought they meant someone good - Ayrton!". Interesting
to note that more people were crowding round the PSR pit to get
Jackie Stewart's autograph.
Also in the Pre 83 FF2000 race, on the front row, one Steve Nichols
(USA) .... yes, the very same! He managed to stall at the start
and trailed round last!
Watch out for the two Mika's in F1 in a couple of years - they are
in a class of their own this year.
Also - what odds on McNish in next year's F1 equations now he's
on the winning way in F3000?
Paul
|
837.426 | Monza '78 :-( | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under 'Common Knowledge' | Mon May 21 1990 11:27 | 15 |
| Re: .411
Patrese had a reputation in '78 for being a bit wild; and had been blamed for
some earlier incidents. After the start-line shunt, the drivers held a kangaroo
court - pronouncing him guilty. It was never clear to me exactly what he had
done to precipitate this. The drivers then said that unless Patrese was
given a one race ban, they would boycott the next Grand Prix, so the FIA
did just that. The only other case I can think of in recent times was
Mansell last season.
The accident itself was really tragic. Immediately afterwards it looked as
though Vittorio Brambilla was in danger - he had a fractured skull; however he
came through OK. Peterson's broken leg was bad news, but should have healed.
Unfortunately, 2-3 days later he developed an embolism (blood vessel blockage)
which killed him.
|
837.427 | Riccardo ? | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon May 21 1990 12:50 | 13 |
| Riccardo was (and probably still is somehow) known for being difficult
to pass. But I dont remember him doing terrible things like De Cesaris
in recent races.
As for the fatal Monza incident, Riccardo has finally been discharged
of all accusations after the italian court viewed a film made by one
of the spectators showing the race director giving the green light
early (half of the field were still moving to their grid position
causing them to effectively jump the start and pile onto the front
of the grid at the 1st chicane).
I like the way Riccardo drives. As a GP veteran (almost 200 GP)
he looks very good and very enthusiastic.
|
837.428 | What about Monaco | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon May 21 1990 13:56 | 49 |
| Monaco looms up. It's a bit later than usual in the year and
perhaps it won't rain this year. It's strange that the sun-drenched
playground of the jet set always seems more prone to rain than
any other venue.
The tight twisty circuit does tend to be a leveller, with the
premium being on handling and acceleration rather than outright
power. It should therefore be very close, particularly in practice.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Alesi on pole. If this should
occur it'll be the first Tyrrell pole for many a long year. The
car seems to have the credentials ie. Lots of downforce, good handling,
and the Pirreli qualifiers which appear to be better than the
Goodyears.
After that it's so close, the McLaren may have the most power but
possibly the worst handling of the other main contenders. Williams
and Benetton must be on the same level at this circuit which leaves
it down to the drivers. Senna must be favourite of course, but at
the other end there's Piquet who not only doesn't like street
circuits but doesn't do well at them either.
Grid Prediction Alesi
Senna
Nannini
Boutsen
Patrese
Berger
Ferrari?. A race they'd rather forget I think. The car doesn't look
happy around tight bends and relies more than any other on masses
of revs to get along. This just isn't their circuit. A pity for
Mansell since he's a very good driver on this sort of track. The
other minor teams will be in with a shout too and some may have
the rare privilege of competing head to head with Ferrari. It'll
be a bad meeting for Lotus too.
I can't see Alesi winning though, he may be quick but he also keeps
having off circuit excursions, and at Monaco you only do that once.
Result Senna
Nannini
Patrese
Boutsen
Berger
Nakajima
-John
|
837.429 | Oh yes | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon May 21 1990 13:58 | 4 |
| Patrick, are we going to have one of your excellent practice
reports this year?
-John
|
837.430 | All on TMC! | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Mon May 21 1990 15:51 | 12 |
| Monte Carlo TV shows all training sessions LIVE. Good news for us folks
living down here. Tough luck for the others.
So, there's quite some chance for some fluorescent test reports.
Keep'em coming, Patrick...
Reportingly yours,
Chris
PS: I was there last year, for the final training. Fascinating.
Genuinely fascinating....
|
837.431 | sure ! | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon May 21 1990 16:55 | 8 |
| re .429/.430
Let's do the following:
- I'll take care of Thursday (prequalif., 1st practice sessions)
- Chris does the saturday report (including the F3 race !)
OK ? :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
|
837.432 | | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Tue May 22 1990 11:29 | 1 |
| Nice try...
|
837.433 | 185cm: too tall for a F1 car... | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Tue May 22 1990 11:37 | 19 |
| re. some previous comment about Berger loosing first places:
He gave an interview to the German weekly DER SPIEGEL, wherein he gave
some insight into what's going on. In short, he said that he left the
track in the US because his right foot got caught btw. accelerator and
brake pedal, and in Imola he had to let Patrese go because of a) his
engine getting feebler towards the end and b) he has lost all feeling
in his legs and feet! Because of his size, Berger has to drive all
races with bent (knees together, feet a bit apart) legs. Try sit like
that for 15mins. And then think about what it's like to be pressed into
that position for two hours and 300+ kms. Leave alone xx gear
changes/round.
On top, taking into consideration that there's NO hydraulical or
mechanical power assistance for depressing the clutch, you can see how
comfortable it is for a driver to ride a car where he cannot fully
stretch his legs.
As he once said: this is becoming a sport for one-legged dwarves...
|
837.434 | Perhaps .... | TPLAB::KENNEDY_C | The same old clich� | Tue May 22 1990 12:45 | 6 |
|
Chris,
Do you think he just got lazy driving those automatics?
Colin
|
837.435 | Berger's cramped conditions | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Tue May 22 1990 12:53 | 13 |
| One reason I'm not expecting Berger to do anything much at
Monte Carlo is this 'cramped in the cockpit' problem. It
would be bad enough at most circuits, but around this all
activity circuit he's really going to be up against it.
They, McLaren, seem to be saying that they're going to do
something about it but I can't see that it's that easy. One
regulation on car design is that the drivers feet must be
behind the line of the front axle. This was introduced a few
years back on safety grounds. How then can they really improve
his lot without lengthening the car?.
-John
|
837.436 | Porsche V12, Metzger announcement | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed May 23 1990 13:53 | 22 |
| I've just read an interesting press release that may bring some
interesting thoughts to this discussion:
according to Hans Metzger, project manager
- the Porsche V12 is delayed by 6 months
- it will have a central power output, that is : connected at mid-point
of the crankshaft.
My conclusions:
1st conclusion : they will place the engine transversely in the
chassis. Why not ? aerodynamics ?
2nd possibility : they will locate the gerabox alongside the engine
3rd reason : they have rigidity/vibration problems with the V12
crankshaft. Old problem (remember the 3litre Ferraris)
In both alternatives 1&2 they will gain an immense amount on wheelbase.
Interesting stuff, isn't it ?
|
837.437 | only for watching ! | AIOLI::FILHOL | | Wed May 23 1990 16:11 | 12 |
| Mc Honda are not automatic, aren't they ?
Apart from that, Alesi about the Monaco GP:
1.Senna, 2.Patrese, 3.Berger (even though the Ferrari does not look
very good !)
And there are big strikes annouced in the SNCF (trains) and nice
airport for all the week-end !!!
How are the things going down here ?
Bruno, getting nervous before going to the qualif on Saturday...
|
837.438 | Complex . . .and late | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Thu May 24 1990 01:00 | 10 |
| A transverse V12 ought to create horrible problems with downforce ==
would impede on the venturis.
Could Metzger mean that the gearbox will be in the sump, with the
driveshafts approximately mid-point of the engine?
Anyone for a pool on how long Fiat perseveres with Ferrari? They'vs
spent a lot of lira for few results. . . .
Don
|
837.439 | Fiat, Ferrari and F1 | AIMTEC::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Thu May 24 1990 01:21 | 6 |
| Well, Fiat's been persevering with Ferrari for 21 years now, so
I would guess they'll stick around for a few more.... . As long
as there is an F1 World Championship, Ferrari will be there with
red cars.
Dave
|
837.440 | Here we go chaps | YUPPY::PATEMAN | We're proud of you Palace | Thu May 24 1990 12:22 | 13 |
| Monaco Pre Qualifying
From Ceefax this am
The lucky 4 are....
Aliot, Suzuka, Grouillard and Moreno
In the list of non-qualifiers Giacomelli in the Life was given a
time of around the 1.41 mark in comparison with the 1.27/28s of
the others. Does this mean that the Life has now completed a lap!!!
Paul
|
837.441 | How can he do that ? | AIOLI::FILHOL | | Fri May 25 1990 09:10 | 8 |
| Monaco first tests:
1.Senna (beaten all the records of the track)
2.Berger
3.Alesi (wonderfull laps)
4.Prost (wondering about security...)
5.Boutsen
...
The strikes are still on the wave !
|
837.442 | Mixed up Frenchmen | YUPPY::PATEMAN | We're proud of you Palace | Fri May 25 1990 09:30 | 7 |
| Ref -2
Apologies chaps... early morning brainfade, it was Bernard not Aliot
in prequal! My mind was still two years out of date.
Paul
|
837.443 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Fri May 25 1990 10:24 | 4 |
| And Warwick in the Lotus is 6th or 7th!. I am amazed and pleased
too.
-John
|
837.444 | from VNS... | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Fri May 25 1990 12:00 | 16 |
|
[] MOTOR SPORT.F1 Monaco, 1st timed qualification.
Senna (McLaren Honda)........ 1'21"797
Berger (McLaren Honda)....... 1'23"001
Alesi (Tyrell-Cosworth)...... 1'23"372
Prost (Ferrari).............. 1'23"449
Boutsen (Williams-Renault)... 1'23"936
Martini (Minardi-Cosworth)... 1'24"012
Warwick (Lotus-Lamborghini).. 1'24"070
Patrese (Williams-Renault)... 1'24"179
Larini (Ligier-Cosworth)..... 1'24"206
< Mansell (Ferrari)............ 1'24"206
Second and final qualification on saturday.
|
837.445 | Slip sliding away | DOOZER::JENKINS | A Fiesta of Dorises | Fri May 25 1990 13:35 | 8 |
|
There was some piccies from Monaco on Sky News last night.
Senna's qualifying lap was more akin to the way a rally driver
would have driven round the Monaco circuit than a F1 driver.
His McClaren was sliding around all over the place.
|
837.446 | Once upon a time there were 2 red Ferraris | UNTADI::PAGE | Master of Desired Performance | Mon May 28 1990 12:01 | 7 |
| The 1st 2 cents worth.....
Another p***poor performance again yesterday by the much hyped Ferrari
641. I don't see how they can expect to win anything this season at
this rate.
Dave
|
837.447 | French Connection II | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under 'Common Knowledge' | Mon May 28 1990 15:02 | 35 |
| Haven't seen the race yet - going to watch it tonight.
Don't want to go down another rathole (much!), but I did see J-M B. being
interviewed on French news last night; he's at it again!
He came up with the following independant, totally unrelated remarks :-)....
o Alesi is French. Alesi is the best thing sliced bread. Alesi
finished just behind Senna despite having a 100 horse power
disadvantage.
o A French car has never won the world championship. An all French
combination (French driver, chassis, engine and tyres) should be
entered in 1991 to redress this anomaly.
o Renault make mighty fine engines - they should,as a point of
national honour, be supplying them to a French team.
o Ligier are the best French team of the moment; they should be
receiving more support.
o I (J-M B) and the Federation will work to put in place an all
French team for the '91 season. [P.S., I hope that by "the
Federation", he meant the French motor racing organisation and not
FISA?!].
He didn't further mention tyres - I guess that we can take that as a 'given'.
This venture should, IMO, use French plugs, oil, paint, sponsorship, fuel,
kevlar, metal alloys, race-wear etc. to properly calm J-M B's xenophopic
feelings.
Well, lets see how far he gets this time. The last costly venture that he
pushed couldn't produce the goods - even with Prost at the helm...
|
837.448 | Two jobs... | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Mon May 28 1990 15:46 | 1 |
| Balestre, indeed, is the Chairman of the French FA.
|
837.449 | 4 starts,3 dead engines and a duff roll bar | UNTADI::PAGE | Master of Desired Performance | Mon May 28 1990 17:17 | 24 |
| As a matter of interest....
Apparently Prost was already to go "French" for this season during his
dispute with McHonda last season ( or so he said in an Autosport interview
recently ).He had a fairly impressive list of things going for him at that
time but canned the idea, namely:
1. John Barnard.
2. Renault.
3. As much sponsorship as he could eat.
As for the weekends G.P... I wouldn't go out of your way to watch it. But
if you do,switch off before the re-start as it was fairly tedious stuff.
By the time they got to Casino Square on the second start Senna was long
gone. He seemed to develop a problem two laps from the end but was in
contol until the flag. Difficult to tell what happened until someone
publishes something about it but when the flag fell there was hardly any
distance at all between the top 3.
Mansell did well after his collision with Boutsen,making up about 12
places. However,he was let down by his machinery in traditional fashion
as was Prost many laps earlier. The 641 really is a s***box !!
Dave
|
837.450 | I stayed awake all the way through! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | We're proud of you Palace | Tue May 29 1990 10:04 | 53 |
| Monaco Musings
I must have been watching a different race ;-)
I reckoned their was plenty going on while Senna strolled away.
First the Prost/Alesi/Berger battle, the Mansell's charge back through
the field, then Bernard/Foitek and Alesi/Berger in the latter half.
As to Senna's problem, he said he had a bit of an engine problem
from about third distance, but didn't explain the dramatic slowing
at the end.
Alesi drove an excellent race, Berger drove well apart from the
prattish move on Prost in the first part. I agree with Hunt that
McHonda are being less than team perfect in not sorting out his
accomodation, although JH did labour the point somewhat, shades
of waste paper in radiators from a few years back!
Ferrari do look in a state. The car has obviously got the power
as Mansell showed in coming back after his nose job, but they clearly
have major reliability problems. I can't see Mansell staying on
at the end of the year at this rate. This morning's Guardian says
that Uncle Ken has Alesi for at least another season, so I wouldn't
be surprised to see Mansell back at Williams.
The other topic to come up at monaco was pre-qualifying. So far
this year 8 teams have scored points, Ferrari, Tyrrell, Williams,
Brabham, Arrows, Benetton, McHonda and Lola. This leaves 5 slots
for people to score upto and including Silverstone, and 11 teams.
My prediction for the reshuffle:
Osella, AGS, Coloni, EuroBrun and Life look certain to stay with
an 8.30 start even if they make it to the race. That leaves 6 teams
after 5 slots.
Lotus should make it into the points soon. I can't contemplate them
having to prequalify. Leyton House are coming upto two circuits
that suit them, Ricard and Silverstone, as long as they can get
the car to hang together. Dallara? Pirro looks their best bet for
some points. Minardi should get in, but only via Martini. Ligier?
Goodish drivers but no reliability. Onyx look a total shambles at
the moment.
So my prediction is that either Dallara or Onyx will have to start
taking the cold showers. BTW - anybody know what happens if there
are less than 13 scorers? Do they count back or retain tha status
quo?
Prediction for Canada - Berger to break his duck, if he avoids trouble
and cramp.
Paul
|
837.451 | Some interview info | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Tue May 29 1990 10:48 | 11 |
| Berger had problems with his gear box (dead 1st gear). When he noticed
them, he decided to "test drive" a few rounds. This explains why he
made "a break" in the middle of his attacks on Alesi, and, also, why
Alesi's car accelerated much better after the sharp bends.
Senna experienced the same problems in the last laps, hence his
decision to "handcarry" his car home.
Reportingly yours,
Chris
|
837.452 | Bergers indiscretion | CHEST::LEECH | | Tue May 29 1990 11:17 | 7 |
| Was it just me, or did anybody else see Bergers right front wheel
locked up during his flight across the track just before his
indiscretion with Prost ??
Does anybody know if there was a problem with his car, or was it just a
bad judgemental error ??
|
837.453 | Brain Fade Berger | YUPPY::PATEMAN | We're proud of you Palace | Tue May 29 1990 11:22 | 12 |
| Re -1
I didn't think Berger braked at all. Its a shame we didn't get any
shots from his camera of the incident.
BTW - the "in car" shots of Senna were interesting, shame the angle
meant you couldn't see his eyes. It was good to see him smiling
and laughing after the race. Shame Ron Dennis stopped him spraying
the Rainiers with shampoo!
Paul
|
837.454 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Tue May 29 1990 13:34 | 24 |
| My impressions -
* A great drive by Alesi. The Tyrrell may be very quick but it's
also extremely skittish. I was surprised that he didn't end up in the
Armco. Perhaps the little skirmish he had with it at the start had
an effect.
* Both Ferraris had gear selection problems - not really surprising
with the bashing Monaco gives gearboxes and the problems they've had
with it in the past.
* The Ferraris did much better than I expected, and the Benettons
much worse.
* I think Senna was just taking it easy, lots in hand.
* I found the television direction very annoying, cutting from
In car to fixed cameras all the time. I imagine he thought this
was clever, but I'd rather one or t'other myself.
* Did Piquet clash with Boutsen?. We didn't see it but judging by
the race situation it wouldn't be surprising.
-John
|
837.455 | come on Alesi | YIPPEE::FILHOL | | Tue May 29 1990 14:35 | 10 |
| The front right wheel of Berger car did not touch the ground just
because the road there is going down strongly, and the most right
part of the road is much lower than the left part. You could see it
from the embedded camera in an other car coming from the back; just
before arriving at the accident place and overtaking, the right front
wheel couldn't touch the groud...
According to me, the tv coverage, in France, was very good.
Bruno.
|
837.456 | Motive Power | YUPPY::PATEMAN | We're proud of you Palace | Tue May 29 1990 17:08 | 36 |
| The end for the DFV?
Looking ahead to next year (and later this year maybe) the following
picture appears on engines, and it seems to spell the end for the
faithful Cosworth that started out in 1967.
Ferrari V12 Ferrari & Minardi
Renault V10 Williams + 1 French team, probably Lola
Honda V12 McLaren
Honda V10 Tyrrell
Ford V8 or V12? Benetton
Porsche V? Arrows
Lambo V12 Lotus + Glas (Mexico)
Ilmor V10 Leyton House
Subaru V12 Coloni
Yamaha V12 Brabham
Neotech V12 EuroBrun
Life W12 Life
With Dallara rumoured to have Ferrari V12s in '92, this leaves only
Osella, Onyx, AGS and Ligier with "customer" Cosworths. And Ligier
and AGS must be possibles for a Renault. Of the '91 runners Eddie
Jordan Racing and Reynard must be possibles for Honda V10s or Mugens
in '92. There is also the Judd V10 which was scheduled for Leyton
House.
With all this activity, and drivers like Comas, McNish, Herbert,
Salo, Hakkinen, Damon Hill, Motormindi (sp?) and the Brazilians
Palhares and Fittipaldi coming along, F1 must be in the best shape
its been in for a very long time.
Now if there were only a few more races..........
Paul
|
837.457 | F1/Indy Random Generator | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Tue May 29 1990 18:22 | 43 |
|
RE: .449, 450, and probably others . . .
As a Ferrari fanatic, I'm as disappointed as anyone. BUT, if the 640,
or 641, or 641/2 were a McLaren or Williams, it would be a worldbeater.
In other words, if all Ferrari had to do was install a Renault or Honda
engine/trans unit and race, they'd be nearly invincible. As far as
I've heard and read, the "s**tbox" is one of the best, if not THE best
chassis in F1. Rationalizing, I suppose. But maybe F1 has reached the
point where the technology is so complex that no one group is capable
of doing the entire car. Currently, only Ferrari does design, build,
test, and develop the entire car. (Note that I put "develop" last!)
Perhaps Fiat agrees. With the Minardi deal, Fiat/Ferrari move toward
the situation Renault and Honda are in: just focus on one part of the
car. Ideally, Honda wins races; McLaren (rarely) loses them. Another
note recently listed the future F1 lineup -- a wonderful array of
engines and "kit cars," but only one complete car.
As recent as a few days ago there were still articles being printed on
"What's Wrong with the US GP." The comparison of Monaco and Indy, run
on the same day, is a partial answer. At Indy, lots of racing, which
we in America take to mean "passing," and, especially "lead changes."
(Forgive me for the sacrilege.) At Monaco, the polesitter led every
foot of the way, was never pushed, much less passed. The second
qualifier stayed in second as long as he lasted. Thereafter, second
and third never changed. Monaco is a special instance, but few F1
races feature lead changes. Even more rare is the Alesi-Senna sort
of pass-repass scenario. Americans demand that sort of action, or are
at least accutomed to seeing it. On Indy: the cars are not at the F1
level, but they are very good, with chassis from March, Lola, and
Penske, and engines from Chevrolet/Ilmor, Cosworth, Judd, Porsche, and
Alfa Romeo (and Buick). The drivers are not quite at the F1 level,
either, but they are fast and generally competent -- no Senna, but no
Arnoux or De Cesaris, either.
Much as I love F1, some of races over the past few seasons have been
boring high-speed parades, with no real question of who would win.
Looking forward to the Ferrari "supermotore,"
Don
|
837.458 | In catch-up mode... | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Wed May 30 1990 09:22 | 32 |
| I've been away for three weeks so just catching up with all this stuff.
Re Imola : (going back a bit!) Senna's problem was apparently that a
stone got flipped up and jammed between brake caliper and wheel, neatly
machining the edge of the rim away and then damaging the brakes as well
as letting the tyre down!! Re the Berger/Mansell incident, I think it
was one of those racing accidents ; Mansell had obviously worked his
manoevre out and came out of the previous left-hander with a flier on
Berger. The Austrian was caught completely unawares and moved over on
his usual line not realising the Ferrari was alongside. As for those
Mansell-knockers who say it was a crazy place to overtake, just look at
how many places there are to overtake - that was one where a lot of the
slower cars were passed on the outside of the next right-hander.
Mansell was just setting himself up to come alongside on the
right-hander so he would be on the correct racing line for the next
left. It's motor-RACING, for goodness sakes!!
Monaco was interesting, though not particularly exciting. Senna (much
as I dislike him "personally") is a true genious in the car - he was
head and shoulders above everyone else on the day. Great drives also
from Alesi and Berger (gutsy) as well as Mansell. If only Ferrari could
get the thing to hang together..... Thought Alesi's move on Prost in
race 1 was sheer brilliance - Berger's sheer suicide. His right front
WAS locked up from way back but there wasn't a snowball in hell's
chance of getting through that late in the corner from where he was
(about 3 cars lengths back when he started the move). Thought Piquet's
"spin" quite typical of the way he "races" at circuits like Monaco..
Much as would like McHonda to be beaten this year, I am beginning
to get the queasy feeling that noone is going to overhaul Senna....
Colin
|
837.459 | I love the red cars too | YUPPY::PATEMAN | We're proud of you Palace | Wed May 30 1990 09:52 | 47 |
| Re -2
I too am a Ferrari fan. My father worked for the UK importer so
I grew up with them. Unfortunately they weren't provided as company
cars! I am really disappointed to see Ferrari not being able to
tackle McLaren head on, but equally glad to see Williams taking
up the fight again.
Ferrari's have always been a touch fragile and idiosyncratic and
have usually been driven best by drivers with flair rather than
the calculating "pro's". Villeneuve is the obvious example, but
also Regga, Ickx, Andretti, Berger, Surtees etc add to the point.
Scheckter and Lauda are exceptions but they also coincided with
very good cars. For this reason I reckon Mansell will do better
over the season that Prost in terms of laps lead, charging drives
etc. He suits Ferrari. Prost is too detached and clinical.
It would be interesting to see how Senna fared at Maranello. A lot
would depend on his attitude to the challenge. If he still has the
tenacity that allowed him to make the Toleman fly he could do very
well.
As to the return of kit cars, I agree it looks like that on the
surface, but its not really like the Cosworth/Hewland/Firestone/Joe
Bloggs aluminium days (anybody else remember the Connew?) The major
engine manufacturers work very closely with the constructors and
many of the deals are exclusive. It wouldn't surprise me for the
cars to ultimately become called by the engines. Coloni is already
owned by Subaru (mostly)
As to racing in the US, Prix Editions makes an interesting point.
Apparently market research shows that the average GP fan is both
younger and better educated than the average CART/NASCAR fan, so
pitching at them is not going to get very far. Equally, a desert
cowboy town like Phoenix will not draw the right sort of fan. The
piece makes a good case for Road Atlanta, but also, presumably,
the possibility of a San Diego street circuit would be similar if
not as good. We were surprised by the knowledge of the US fans we
met at Phoenix, but all were from out of town. They were also young
(thirtysomething young) and many had been to Europe for races.
F1 needs the US more than the US needs F1, but the need a proper
plan and circuit, and ideally US drivers. If they are touting for
a US front man I might just be persuaded.....
Paul
|
837.460 | Monaco impressions | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Fri Jun 01 1990 20:26 | 78 |
| Thursday 24 May 1990, dry and sunny
1 Pre-qualifications
- half of the circuit has been re-surfaced, far less bumpy this year.
Difficult to predict times since no-one really knows what sort of grip
to expect from the new tarmac.
- truly impressed by Aguri Suzuki and the Larrousse-Lamborghini. I think
he managed his best lap time in about 10 laps and was pre-qualified.
Eric Bernard did a good job too.
- The Subaru-Coloni (or Coloni-Subaru) is improving. Bertrand Gachot did
3 laps (before an oil pipe broke). It is almost official that Subaru
will stop the Coloni experience.
- The Life is improving too : 8 laps before Bruno Giacomelli stopped at
the swimming pool (after having generously spilled oil about everywhere).
The Rocchi W12 makes an odd V12 noise, very different from the MGN W12.
- Moreno got the Eurobrun in the list. Mr Brun has failed to honor a few
invoices and the Neotech V12 is gone. No real hopes for the near future.
Claudio Langes is having a good time, but only one hour at a time.
2 Morning untimed practice session
- Ferrari : strange, strange ! The V12 noise is exactly identical to the
Lambo V12, making it impossible to know what car just climbed the hill
after Ste Devote (Ferrari ? Lotus ? Larrousse ?). Except that the Ferrari
had the SLOWEST gearchange of all. Eventually Ferrari explained they had
made that change in the gearbox program in order to gain in reliability.
- Beautiful (as always) driving by Derek Warwick with very good lap times.
- The 2 Onyx drivers (surprisingly) did things in the right order: learn
the circuit first. They managed good times.
- As already well known Alesi was head and shoulders above the non-McLaren
field. For his 1st Monaco GP (he ran there in F3) he did much better
than anyone could expect with 1'22.7 only .4s slower than Senna's pole
time last year. Best lap of the session.
- Senna took it easy, tuning his car. Very much like Prost. The real
hard chargers were Mansell and Berger.
3 Afternoon 1st official qualifying session
- Alesi tried hard to re-do his previous performance but stayed a little
bit under. I dont really think that the car has a significant advantage
over the competition, but I'm sure that Alesi is certainly enthusiastic
in his driving. A new master driver ! A new Senna ?
- Senna did a superb lap time on lap 3. 1'21"8 beating last year's pole
time. 10 minutes before the end of the session he went again and did 1'21"7.
It's always extremely funny to see Senna, supposedly running slow, pass
cars (in their fast laps) while he completes his slow-down lap (or warm-up)
- Both Williams drivers adopted a very smooth "Prost" style.
- The Footwork-Arrows are just inexistent. I wonder what Porsche people
think when they see how bad the cars are. Similar comment about the
Leyton House cars, although they say that they think they will find the
bug in the chassis one day.
4 Saturday, last F1 qualifying session and F3 race
- thanks to TMC I could watch the last qualifying hour live. Senna did it
again, breaking his record at 1st attempt. 10 minutes before the end he
tried again and I am pretty sure that he would have done under 1'21 had he
not found a slow car on his way at La Rascasse (Anthony Noghes corner).
- F3 race under pouring rain. Laurent Aiello was definitely the best driver
on the wet track, lapping a full 1sec faster than everybody else, and
making no mistakes. German lady Ellen Lohr came in second. Olivier Beretta
3rd on home circuit. British, German, Italian and French F3 stars disap-
-peared early. Winning the Monaco F3 race is the assurance of getting a
F1 seat later on (Patrese, Senna, Prost, Alesi, ...). Aiello passed the
exam in extremely severe conditions.
|
837.461 | Alesi or Tyrrell | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon Jun 04 1990 13:39 | 22 |
| It's an interesting question as to whether it's Alesi or the
Tyrrell that's actually quick. Probably the answer is a
combination of both, but to what extent?.
It would appear that the car is about 7% (my estimate) down on
power in comparison with the big boys but manages to run close
to them particularly on tight circuits. It must, I think, have
"something" to be able to do so.
Alesi seems to be worth 2 secs a lap over Nakajima, but this was
also the gap when he was teamed with other top drivers. This
suggests to me that Alesi is as quick as anyone but also that
the Tyrrell is a quick car too, otherwise it wouldn't be able
to keep up with the likes of McLaren, Ferrari which are also
driven by quick drivers.
If the others don't catch up in the chassis department before
next season the Honda powered Tyrrell will be the quickest
car on the circuits. However there's a long time to go yet!.
-John (who expects to see more cars with this aerodynamic
arrangement soon)
|
837.462 | In response to a few | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Tue Jun 05 1990 09:12 | 41 |
| re -2
Thanks for the informative practice report, Patrick. I wonder why
Ferrari don't just put the gearbox on ice and revert to a "normal"
gearchange - it doesn't seem to give them any significant advantage,
even getting away from the lights or powering away from a tight 1st
gear corner, and it certainly adds a whole new dimension of
unreliability to the car.
It's interesting that many of these "advances" (I'm thinking of
active/reactive suspensions recently and multi-wheels and 4wd a few
years ago) are played around with for a while to try and gain an
advantage and then shelved. Lotus, Williams and Benetton are three
manufacturers who have either raced or tested active/reactive
suspension systems in recent years but decline to use them as they
offer (apparently) not enough of an advantage to outweigh the
disadvantages of more complexity, weight and unreliability.
I agree that Alesi is largely what makes the Tyrrell work although
there must be something in the aerodynamics to help it along. However,
at a circuit such as Monaco, it must be more to do with a good solid
"chassis" and suspension design allowing the car to be set-up and
adjusted easily. How many times has it happened that successful teams
(eg Lotus) have scuppered themselves making a car that is too difficult
to set-up properly or easily?
The thing is that, apparently, the new nose is not such a simple thing
to copy, as the car has been designed that way from the beginning. For
a team to try and adapt to this design mid-season would be difficult if
not impossible. The Tyrrell nose starts angling upwards from well
behind the front wheels with the flat underbody extended forward so as
to comply with the rule that states that the underbody must extend as
far forward as the rear of the front tyres. The whole front end of the
car is therefore designed around the concept. Next year may see some
imitations but I'm not sure anyone will/can do anything this year.
Canadian G.P. this coming weekend - last year the Williams twins
came in 1-2 after Prost retired and Senna had problems. Hope they do
the same this year!
Colin
|
837.463 | re Tyrrell design | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Tue Jun 05 1990 13:02 | 22 |
| Just to clarify what I didn't say too clearly before re. the
Tyrrell.
The second place in the US was of course with the 'old' car
so it's not just a question of the aerodynamics that makes
it quick, but also the general chassis design.
The flat plate under the nose section on the new car is, of
course, the main element of it's design. To get the best ground
effect with a flat bottom and no skirts the designers try to
extract as much air from under the car as possible without
increasing the drag. Mainly this is done by the undertray at
the rear, which is sculptured as a venturi, but Tyrrell seem
also to be trying to redirect the airflow at the front away
to the side of the car by the section of bodywork above the
flat section thus producing an outward flow which will pull
air from under the car by it's momentum.
It seems to work, but only they really know by how much, from
their comparisons with the earlier car.
-John
|
837.464 | Win a Ferrari 248 TB? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Jun 06 1990 10:12 | 32 |
| Just a change of pace. One of the national television magazines is
running a competition with a Ferrari 348 TB as first prize.
I need responses to 5 questions - can anybody out there help?
In the unlikely event that my entry wins, I will rather unwillingly
cut the car in half, or quarters or whatever, to the person(s) who
helped most. Here goes;
1. Alain Prost won his first Grand Prix at age 24, 26 or 27?
2. Of his 40 F1 victories, how many has Prost won driving the
Marlborough/McLaren?.
3. Which of the following records is NOT held by Ferrari;
- Number of contested Gp's?
- Number of victories in a single season?
- Number of pole positions?
4. Which of the following drivers was NOT world Champion
driving Ferrari;
- John Surtees?
- Clay Regazzoni?
- Jody Scheckter?
5. Prost was not the first "transfer" from Marlborogh/McLaren
to Ferrari. Which of the following engineers moved before
Prost;
- Gordon Murray?
- John Barnard?
- G�rard Ducarouge?
regards George Frost
|
837.465 | Answers? | IOSG::DUTT | Nigel Dutt | Wed Jun 06 1990 12:55 | 6 |
| 1 - 26
2 - 30
3 - Victories in a season
4 - Regazzoni
5 - Barnard
|
837.466 | New race soon | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Wed Jun 06 1990 14:22 | 17 |
| Best look that stuff up in a book to be certain I'd say, and
read the questions very carefully to see if there might be a
subtle trick there. Ie. No true answers or all true answers
type things. Sometimes they play these tricks!.
Re. Canada. Another close battle between McLaren, Ferrari and
Williams is the stock suggestion. Whilst Ferrari came in for
a lot of criticism over the failures at Monaco, I was very
impressed with how quickly they went on a track that doesn't suit
the car. Maybe they'll come good in Canada�.
-John
� Being tipped by me is tantamount to the kiss of death as a rule
and even vice versa. I predicted that Alesi wouldn't finish at Monaco.
Saying someone won't finish at Monaco is one of the safest bets in
F1 however whilst only 6 out of 26 did finish Alesi was one of them!.
|
837.467 | Most poles? | IOSG::DUTT | Nigel Dutt | Wed Jun 06 1990 14:51 | 5 |
| Re trivia
The one I'm not sure of is 3 - they've definitely done the most GPs,
and they definitely haven't won the most in a season (McLaren), but I
don't know about most poles.
|
837.468 | 4 out of 5 for sure | AIMTEC::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Wed Jun 06 1990 16:29 | 15 |
| Nigel's answers look pretty good to me. Prost won his first GP on
Jul 5, 1981, if you can get his birthdate, the first one is easy.
As for #3, McLaren has the record for most victories in a season,
but I haven't been keeping track of poles so I can't say who has
that one.
Prost won 9 GPs for Renault, then 30 for McLaren (19 with TAG/Porsche
power and 11 with Honda power) and the last one for Ferrari.
Good luck.
Dave
ps - I'll be happy just with a test drive....:-)
|
837.469 | Bits and Pieces | YUPPY::PATEMAN | People will come, Ray, people will come | Thu Jun 07 1990 10:24 | 44 |
| This week's gossip, pre-Canada
Langes has left EuroBrun by mutual agreement. No confirmation of
a replacement, although Mark Blundell is in heavy discussions about
the drive. Another name mentioned is Marco Greco.
Williams are reported to be talking to Al Unser Jr about next year
(this is from the US press) and also Alesi as a help to keeping
Renault exclusivity. His Tyrrell buy-out clause is reputed to be
L1.2m.
Larrousse have signed up with Lola again for next year.
Berger is starting a campaign for FISA to enforce minimum cockpit
lengths so that drivers can be over 5'9" tall.
Alboreto rumoured to be thinking about jacking it in completely.
Life talking to Lotus and Brabham about buying old Judd engines.
Ricard testing saw Prost fastest overall by .1 from Senna. Senna
did 222 laps over the two days, including running a race distance
at 4sec/lap faster than last year. Martin Donnelly set yhe fastest
time on Day 1.
Lotus possibly to lose Camel sponsorship as RJ Reynolds are heavily
into the Peugeot WSPC project. - At least this would mean they would
be back to a decent colour!
Mexican Glas team is due to give demo runs at Mexican GP in two
weeks.
Hungaroring is likely to lose its race after this year. Its 5 year
contract runs out after the '90 race, and Austria is rumoured to
be back for 91. Shame one good circuit has to give way to another.
Prediction for Sunday:
Senna to get a run for his money from the Ferrari's, with maybe
Mansell getting it together. Also, Lotus will ge a top 6 finish.
Alesi to be best V8 runner (surprise, surprise!)
Paul
|
837.470 | who wins dares | ULYSSE::FROST | | Thu Jun 07 1990 11:23 | 4 |
| Predictions for Montreal: Ferrarri taking top honours and another
Tyrrel/McLaren duel
regards George Frost
|
837.471 | facts, rumours, .... | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Fri Jun 08 1990 10:34 | 28 |
| - the Paul Ricard circuit has finally been totally resurfaced. The
old (original) abrasive surface is gone. A few corners have been
modified and curbs smoothed (the pif-paf is much faster than before)
The tyres should not suffer, that was the biggest problem.
- I have the best lap times of last week FOCA testing at Ricard
but, @%#\^ not with me at present. I'll put them in another reply.
Prost did his record lap with 1) race tyres and 2) some amount
of petrol : which makes me think that they still haven't found
the bug in the real axle. Otherwide Prost declared that his car
was perfect (ha ha ha ... !). Ferrari should have their famous
super engine ready at Ricard precisely. At Montreal they will
probably be using the early season engine or the Monaco version.
- Mr Vita (Life) is looking for funds. He apparently has found a
sponsor from behind the iron curtain. A russian consortium by
a name I can't pronounce has promised some rubles ...
- Alesi (runmour rumour) is on pole for a McLaren seat next year.
The other point is that Alesi himself is pretty sure of driving
a Honda powered car next year.
- Erik Comas who started the Pau F3000 GP on pole (and eventually
ran out of the track) announced that he will not come back to
Pau in 1991 : reason ? he'll be a full time F1 driver by then.
No other details
Cheers, Patrick
|
837.472 | | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Fri Jun 08 1990 14:41 | 3 |
| re George "Ferrari top honors":
Stop sniffing that stuff
|
837.473 | Another one to Senna - his 23rd G.P. victory | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Mon Jun 11 1990 08:50 | 12 |
| Didn't stay up to watch the race last night but sneaked a look at the
results this morning. Another win for Senna!
1. Senna
2. Piquet!!
3. Mansell (who apparently came back through the field)
4. Berger (incl 1 minute penalty for some infringement at the start)
5. Prost (pipped by a couple of hundreths od a second by Berger)
6. Warwick (goos news for Lotus fans)
Senna now leads the driver's championship by 12 points from Berger and
McLaren the constructors' by 29 points from Ferrari. Fait accomplis??
|
837.474 | Canadian hero = Berger | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Jun 11 1990 09:05 | 7 |
| Well, fine race for Berger, No1 on the track. He made the right
move being the 1st to stop for slicks, finishing the GP with a 40sec
lead on Senna. The 1min penalty is only justice, even if this time
he jumped the start by a tenth of a second (TF1 showed he had moved
only less than half of the McLaren when the light turned green).
These moves can be very dangerous and the race director was right
in showing the whole field that the game was over.
|
837.475 | You silly Berger! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | People will come, Ray, people will come | Mon Jun 11 1990 10:04 | 39 |
| Berger drove an excellent race considering he didn't have anybody
to race against for a lot of the time. I hope he can keep it *all*
together next time and run at the front properly.
I was disappointed in the performance of the Williams team yesterday,
after Imola I thought they would be a force for the rest of the
season, but they seem to have gone off the boil.
Alesi's shunt could have been much worse. It wouldn't have taken
much more speed to have launched him over the barrier and into the
grandstand. Its interesting to note that Senna, Nannini and Alesi
all lost it at the same point, with the track getting progressively
drier. Senna, with the wettest surface, was the one who didn't lose
it.
Patrick, have you got the full classification? I saw Capelli still
running at the end, first Leyton House finish since phoenix I think.
Good to see Lotus get a point and hence avoid prequalifying for
the second half of the season. Does anybody know the precise rules
for the change over after Silverstone? So far 9 teams have scored
points. Onyx, Dallara, L/House, Minardi and Ligier have no points
and aren't prequalifying.
There are 4 slots left, and of the current prequalifiers Life and
Coloni are unlikely to start. EuroBrun and AGS may get a start but
are unlikely to score, and Osella will probably start but probably
not score. If they the elimination on countback, the last 4 scorers
of last season would be Minardi (Australia), Onyx (Portugal), Ligier
(France) and Dallara (Canada). Of the rest, AGS last scored in Mexico
'89 and L/House in Brazil '89.
With three races left and at least 4 places at each probably to
be filled by McHonda/Ferrari/Williams/Benetton that leaves about
6 points slots left.
As you might have guessed, I'm praying for Leyton House at the moment!!
Paul
|
837.476 | Montreal snippets (from watching TV) | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Jun 11 1990 10:23 | 50 |
| - The main problem in Montreal was the race marshalls or the lack
of real marshalls to be precise. I don't have the exact details
but the report I heard says that the whole GP organisation has been
in trouble until the last minute before the start. One of the problems
is that the marshalls decided to quit (resign). An alternate troop
of "marshalls" was put in place and somewhat trained at the last
minute.
- During the GP this lack of marshalls was obvious:
- PL Martini's Minardi (spun at 1st corner on lap 1) stayed
there for a couple of laps.
- Nannini's Benetton was not removed from a very dangerous place
after hitting the tyres/guardrail
- Alesi's Tyrrell ran out of the track at exactly the same place
hitting the Benetton
- Very rarely did I see flags (almost no blue flags although
there was a lot of overtaking)
- a white flag was deployed early in the race to warn drivers
of the presence of a slow car on the track. Routine ? well the slow
car was actually a ROAD CAR ! Maybe these guys don't know that pace
cars don't exist in F1 rules ...
- Prost declared at the press conference after the race that his
team forgot to convert his car for dry track when he made his stop
for slicks. The airscoops leading fresh air to the brakes were still
covered with tape. Eventually he could NOT keep up with Piquet and
Mansell.
- Grouillard should have received the black flag for dangerous driving
this time. Olivier obviously did not look at his mirrors.
- Boutsen tried to establish his reputation as rain driver. This
time he made a terrible mistake (trying to overtake Prost and brake
on the wet part of track) and violently hit Larini.
- Alesi did a fine job in the early laps. Eventually he made the
same mistake as Boutsen and Nannini, spun and slid out of the track
demolishing his car.
- When the track dried the top drivers lapped in the 1'23"-1'24"
bracket, which is pretty fast. The ideal line dried quickly but the rest
of the track was still wet at places, especially in braking areas.
- Senna (rain master of the past) in contrast had a very careful
driving waiting several laps behind a car before overtaking. He
made absolutely no mistakes.
- But the king of Montreal was definitely Berger. Next time wait
for the green light Gerhard !
|
837.477 | British Marshalls are the best (Xenophobia rules) | YUPPY::PATEMAN | People will come, Ray, people will come | Mon Jun 11 1990 10:49 | 19 |
| Re -1
I agree about the marshalls. One shot early in the race showed the
marshalls at the scene of Martini's off waving at the cars to slow
down with their hands! No sign of a yellow flag. Also, Caffi (I
think) did a briilaint job of baulking Mansell. Nige looked well
wound up, shaking his fist violently.
The track also looked very bumpy. Apparently they have promised
to improve it for next year.
Best comment -
Murray (after an in-car shot of Piquet's tail) - And you can see
the red hot spent gasses from Piquets Ford V8!!
James - Actually Murray, I think that was his red tail light.
|
837.478 | Canada bits | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon Jun 11 1990 14:11 | 35 |
| It looks as if Benetton will have to be 'promoted' to the
same class as McLaren, Ferrari and Williams. Funny how success
follows John Barnard around.
Also Lotus appear to have broken away from the also-rans and
whilst not yet up with the front runners are improving race by
race.
Nobody's mentioned Piquet yet. He's clearly a rejuventated driver
this year and drove a very solid and quick race. Did you notice
that both Benettons had an adjustment made to their front
suspension when they came in to change to slicks. This cost them
the best part of 10 seconds on the others.
Senna has been saying that the McLaren isn't so good this year.
I noticed that they were running a great deal of wing on their
cars to improve grip. The Honda power is necessary to overcome
the drag. Williams too used a lot of wing but in their case
it wasn't quite as successful, the car just doesn't seem to
handle too well, it's very nervous still. Williams will do
better on the fast circuits.
Benetton are a car short for Mexico at the moment. Nanninis car
way have had deranged rear suspension after it's off but when Alesi
hit it the monocoque was smashed into 3 pieces. I wouldn't
criticise the marshalls for not moving the car, since it was 30
yards off the track and they (the marshalls) would have been in
the firing line if another car had come their way. Better a
smashed car than smashed marshalls. Of course at other circuits
there'd have been a crane available.
I wondered what was up with Prost, thanks for the info on the
brakes, haven't heard that in the UK.
-John
|
837.479 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Jun 11 1990 14:20 | 2 |
| re -1 that's what I meant John: no flags, no cranes. Apparently
the resignation of the whole team was because of financial dispute.
|
837.480 | Pounds make Prizes | YUPPY::PATEMAN | People will come, Ray, people will come | Mon Jun 11 1990 15:12 | 10 |
| Re Piquet
Its amazing what $/points makes a driver do :-)
The other interesting bit is Piquet's previous aversion to Ford
power. If memory serves me rightly this was one of the reasons for
him quitting Brabham for Williams. I bet he's looking forward to
the rest of the season with the V8 behind him now.
Paul
|
837.481 | Piquet | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Jun 11 1990 15:42 | 3 |
| The figure I've heard is 50,000 US $ per point.
Can you confirm ?
|
837.482 | Enough to run a nice cruiser | YUPPY::PATEMAN | People will come, Ray, people will come | Mon Jun 11 1990 16:10 | 7 |
| If memory serves, he's got 12 points so far, so that makes $600K.
Assuming he carries on at his present rate he'll end up on about40
points, or $2 million. If Senna goes for $5m+ that would be about
right!
Paul
|
837.483 | Piquet's rate | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon Jun 11 1990 18:38 | 8 |
| Motoring News reckoned that Piquet's dollars for points scheme
was exaggerated. They say it's $10,000 per point.
Anyway he's doubtless sufficiently well off not to be that
motivated by the money. Now that the car is competitive he
seems to be taking interest again.
-John
|
837.484 | Money for old rope ;-> | YUPPY::PATEMAN | People will come, Ray, people will come | Tue Jun 12 1990 09:38 | 6 |
| According to this am's Gruaniad, Piquet's retainer is $1m, plus
$100k per point. They do say its "reputed" tho'.
Either way, I could live on a $1m retainer.
Paul
|
837.485 | Montreal results | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Jun 12 1990 09:56 | 16 |
|
1. Senna McLaren 1h42'56.400
2. Piquet Benetton 10.497 behind
3. Mansell Ferrari 13.385
4. Berger McLaren 14.854
5. Prost Ferrari 15.820
6. Warwick Lotus 2 laps
7. Modena Brabham 2 laps
8. Caffi Footwork 2 laps
9. Bernard Larrousse 3 laps
10. Capelli Leyton House 3 laps
11. Nakajima Tyrrell 3 laps
12. Suzuki Larrousse 4 laps
Best lap: Berger, last lap of the race 1'22"... (2 sec slower than
pole, allowing him to "pass" Prost on the finish line).
|
837.487 | Bits | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Tue Jun 12 1990 13:50 | 8 |
| Personally I wouldn't trust the Grauniad as far as they can
spell it. The Times today says 'reputed to be $12,000/point.
Anyone know what happened to Nannini. He was leading by 15 secs
or so when he came in for tyres, but never reappeared in the
top 6 (in the highlights that is) before spinning off.
-John
|
837.488 | 20 second stop did it | YUPPY::PATEMAN | People will come, Ray, people will come | Tue Jun 12 1990 14:55 | 13 |
| Re -1
He had a *very* long pit stop, which dropped him down. Also Murray
quoted Senna as being around 4 sec (I think) a lap quicker on slicks
so that would have compounded his poor position.
BTW
The Guardian's source is Alan Henry, who should know what he's talking
about.
Paul
|
837.489 | Hmmm | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Tue Jun 12 1990 18:16 | 13 |
| > The Guardian's source is Alan Henry, who should know what he's talking
> about.
I must say that I've always found AH to be one of the best F1
commentators. The Telegraph says it's $100,000 a point too but
I still don't believe it!.
It seemed looking at the highlights that Nannini must have lost
a minute or more to have dropped back so far. I do wish the Beeb
would show the whole race.
-John
|
837.490 | Sign o'the Times | YUPPY::PATEMAN | People will come, Ray, people will come | Tue Jun 12 1990 18:28 | 11 |
| I'm about to sign up for a local cable service so I can get Eurosport.
If the Beeb is showing a GP live I'll still watch their transmission,
but it will give me another option for races like Canada, Mexico
etc.
Re Piquet
I knew there was something I meant to ask him at Brands when he
was in the pit-lane at linchtime ;-)
Paul
|
837.491 | Nannini ? made a 2nd stop | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Jun 12 1990 21:18 | 12 |
| I watched the GP live on TMC, taped TF1, and watched the tape
yesterday. The good thing about TF1 is that they have a flying
reporter with HF radio in the pits. About Nannini I think I heard
them say that he stopped a second time shortly after his wet --> dry
tyres change. Probably something wrong with the anti-roll bars or
aerodynamics settings ... exactly what happened to Prost (but he
did not want to stop).
I also heard Boutsen live, after he walked back to the Williams
pits, declare something like: "it was entirely my fault, I made a
terrible mistake, sorry about that Nicola". Thierry is a reliable,
careful and honest driver.
|
837.492 | Contract$ | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Wed Jun 13 1990 15:01 | 7 |
| ESPN reported some races back that Piquet gets $100k per point.
Also read recently about Prost's contract: if HE chooses to leave at
the end of the year, he can NOT drive for another F1 team next year.
If Ferrari chooses to drop him, he can drive for anyone.
Don
|
837.493 | Nannini | AIMTEC::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Wed Jun 13 1990 16:16 | 4 |
| ESPN said thast Nannini stopped the second time because he had a
deflating tire, front I think.
Dave
|
837.494 | Canada detail | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon Jun 18 1990 13:18 | 28 |
| Got to read the Autosport report on Canada. Apparently Nannini
was even more unlucky than it seems at first sight. He emerged
from the pits in 3rd position on the road (2nd really) and
immediately hit a 'groundhog' which damaged a wing and caused
a puncture - hence a long, long pitstop.
I don't know for certain what a groundhog is but I'd guess it's
one of those things with spikes on it's back that we call a
hedgehog. Either way it must have been somewhat blind and deaf.
Like Prost, Patrese had brake problems eventually causing the
retirement, as did Warwick and some others. Warwick also had
problems with a loose undertray, another problem that was suffered
by several cars, presumably on account of the bumpy track.
Fastest lap of the race was set by Berger on the very last lap.
The other leading competitors also set their best times at the
end of the race (dry track, low fuel load) but the second fastest
of all was Boutsen, with a time set on lap 19 (of 70)!. This
was the lap before he spun off and when the track still had just
a dry line. One can only speculate as to what might have happened
if he'd kept going. It's very uncharacteristic of Boutsen to do
something silly like that, and the Williams team weren't impressed.
Alesi was described as spending the whole weekend "as an accident
waiting to happen", or maybe this was being wise after the event.
-John
|
837.495 | And on to Mexico | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon Jun 18 1990 14:11 | 25 |
| The good thing about the racing this year has been that it's
a lot closer than we've been used to for a long while. It also
seems that it is destined to get closer yet.
When the circus returns to Europe Benetton will run the latest
Ford-Cosworth with more top end power, Ferrari may have their
latest engine ready and Williams expect the improved Renault too.
Given that these teams are already snapping about the heels of
McLaren one or more of them might be able to tip the balance.
Of course there is a new Honda V12 in the offing but it's some
way back on the other engine developments.
I would guess that Senna, now with a healthy lead and aware of
the McLaren's diminishing superiority will be going all out for
a win in Mexico whilst the going is good. Berger may have something
to say about this and Williams will want to make amends for the
zero score from Canada. Williams seem best placed to challenge
on this circuit, but not by much from Ferrari, Benetton. I also
look forward to another good performance from Lotus who are
obviously on the up at present. Alesi will have to settle for
midfield.
-John
(That should ensure that Senna doesn't win!)
|
837.496 | Mexican bits | YUPPY::PATEMAN | People will come, Ray, people will come | Mon Jun 18 1990 14:59 | 36 |
| Given the altitude, the multi-cylinder cars (yes I know they've
all got lots, but you know what I mean), should have a power advantage.
From memory, the circuit is also pretty fast, which should favour
the V12s a bit. McLaren's strong point has never been flat out speed.
I'd like to see the Williams's up there but I still have doubts
about the drivers. They don't seem to have it in them to win in
a straight fight.
Its good to see Lotus on the rise again, Donnelly must get in the
points soon. The Lola's could do well also with the V12 power.
My one doubt about the Benetton's would be whether they've got a
new chassis ready to replace Nannini's Canadian wreck. Anybody know?
On a similar topic, I saw a Leyton House on the M25 last week (on
a trailer unfortunately) either coming from Heathrow or going to
Gatwick. It could have been a display car, but it was on the opposite
carriageway so I didn't get a close look.
Anyone heard whether Suzuki will be fit after his Le Mans shunt?
Also, after Langes's on lap/fine stopping exercise at Montreal,
who's got the drive of the season in the EuroBrun?
Prediction: (totally wrong probably)
Senna
Mansell
Berger
Warwick
Nannini
Bernard
Alesi to crash out, taking someone with him. This will be his turning
point and he will calm down before France.
Paul
|
837.497 | An elite suicide squad | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Mon Jun 18 1990 15:17 | 19 |
| In response to 837.494.
A groundhog is a member of the marmot family, no it doesn't have
spines or anything growing out of its body. Think of a hedgehog,
make it about 2-3 times bigger, give it shorter legs and no prickly
things and you've got a Canadian groundhog. What most people don't
realize is that this was no regular groundhog. His name was Nigel
;-)
and he was paid off by a well known racer to run out in front a
certain Brazillian McLaren race car driver ;-). Unfortunately
(unbeknownst) to Mr. Mansell he was a french ground hog and due
to the language barriers common to French Canadian groundhogs mixed
up the instuctions.
Just thought I would clarify that little bit.
Regards,
A French Canadian groundhog trainer
|
837.498 | Altitude | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon Jun 18 1990 18:33 | 7 |
| I'm not sure that having smaller cylinders is really an
advantage at altitude, perhaps having the best engine
management system is what really counts.
I would guess that Honda have the best controls.
-John
|
837.499 | Ferrari win 1-2 | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Wed Jun 20 1990 16:45 | 9 |
| I would like to stick my neck out and predict a 1-2 win for Ferrari
in Mexico. I think Paul is right about Alesi, he will crash and
take Senna with him.
Any other predictions out there.....only 3 more days to race day.
Regards,
A french Canadian groundhog trainer ;-)
|
837.500 | Smile and the world thinks you're stupid | STRIKR::LINDLEY | Strewth mate..... | Wed Jun 20 1990 16:47 | 3 |
| no predictions or anything, I just wanted to be the 500th reply.
John ;-)
|
837.501 | | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Wed Jun 20 1990 16:54 | 1 |
| FOUL CALL!
|
837.502 | Oh yeah... | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Wed Jun 20 1990 17:04 | 4 |
| Oh yeah... I'll race you to reply 1000..
;-)
FCGT
|
837.503 | Mexico prediction | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Jun 20 1990 17:07 | 36 |
| I stuck my neck out and predicted precisely that from note .499 for
Montreal.
btw. Chris, its after my predictions that I sniff the glue.
The reasoning is quite fundamental:
Five races into the season is still relatively early for all cars
excepting of course the well proven configurations.
The very short preseason preparation by Ferrari is being seen to
start paying off. I believe that Prost's work can now be
appreciated. I'm not knocking the other and ex members of the team
but Prost can set up cars better than most.
Mclaren are showing signs of coming to the end of the road with the
present chassis, engine, team members and enthusiasm. Of course
they they are going fast, they have (over the last 3 years) had the
benefit of the best in the industry. That "best" is in the process
of dissipating.
Finance will I believe be a negative factor for Mclaren before the
season is halfway done.
I predicted at the start of the season that Senna/Mclaren would
have two clear wins - he's had three, we will see if he has any more.
We have all read the notes file about his dissatisfaction recently....
So fans, I follow the prediction in .499
regards George Frost
|
837.504 | Wouldn't it be nice... | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Thu Jun 21 1990 09:07 | 4 |
| I'll go for that, too. Can't help the funny feeling that AS could do it
again, though....
Colin
|
837.505 | Highly Speculative... | YUPPY::PATEMAN | I'm not a doctor, so call me Paul | Fri Jun 22 1990 09:50 | 19 |
| A couple of very interesting (and probably inaccurate!) rumours
from Autosport -
* Mercedes have already tested an F1 chassis, power will be from
a ceramic block, 3.5L V8
* expect to see the Honda V12 in Silverstone testing in July
Slightly more definate -
Nannini being tipped for a seat at Minardi-Ferrari next year
Eddie Jordan Racing advertising for F1 staff for their 1991 programme
DAMS-Lola have postponed entry into F1 until 1992
Reynard planning to have purpose built F1 factory for the 1992 season.
Paul
|
837.506 | more predictions | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Fri Jun 22 1990 14:06 | 18 |
| Sticking one's neck out over the result of a motor race is
indeed very risky. The axe usually falls. Not only is it
necessary to assess the merits of all the contenders but
also the vaguaries of mechanical relaibility, errant driving
by others etc. and even it seems the intent of trained animal
suicide squads.
Anyway it hasn't stopped me before. After due consideration
I reckon Mexico will be won by Boutsen, from Berger and
Nannini. Senna will lead but go off in an overtaking manouvre,
whilst both Ferraris will fail with blown motors. Piquet, at
one time looking likely to win, suffers an off course excursion
which puts him down to 4th. An attempted hit by a dive bombing
condor fails when it's blown off course by the vortices from
the cars. Speculation has it that the condor must have south
american connections.
-John
|
837.507 | FCGT vs. Condor Man | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Fri Jun 22 1990 16:02 | 14 |
| OK...OK... I bet my weakest groundhog can take your best Condor
anytime anywhere.....;-)
But seriously now.... I think Ferrari has finally got this reliability
problem out of the way. Except for the tape over the break oulets
(or what ever you call them) in Montreal, Prost would have been all
over Senna. If both Prost and Mansell finish (which they will)
it will be a 1-2 finish.
PLEASE NOTE: Since I am new to this F1 stuff I can afford to stick
my neck out ;-)
regards,
FCGT
|
837.508 | Demolition derby? | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under 'Common Knowledge' | Fri Jun 22 1990 17:36 | 14 |
| I'm going to go for Piquet, who will inerit the lead. Senna will go out
overtaking Nakajima when the helpless Tyrrell driver loses it the oil that
Mansell laid down two laps earlier, and unceremoniously punts Aryton off.
Berger spins out trying too hard and flat spots his tyres.
Prost finds himself with a fistful of neutrals.
The two Williams jockey for position on the podium behind The Benetton, whilst
Alessi finishes a lonely fourth.
Steve :-)
|
837.509 | Have you got a crystal ball ? Or do you always walk like that | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Studying fluid dynamics, from a stein | Mon Jun 25 1990 07:56 | 21 |
| >If both Prost and Mansell finish (which they will)
>it will be a 1-2 finish.
Give this man a prize !!!!
Saw the , rather disjointed , coverage last night on Beeb 2. Does anyone
know what happend to Mansell when he was charging after Senna in second
place while Prost was somewhere around eleventh. The race coverage
was suddenly live and we see Prost chasing after Senna and the Niglet is
in third !??.
Berger's passing manouvre on Mansell was, shall we say, a trifle messy.
Mansell's re-passing manouvre on Berger was, IMHO, beautifull ! A very
exciting last five minutes with Nigel and Gerhard showing that some
drivers can still be entertaining !
Gordon
|
837.510 | Mansell handles corners better than Maradonna | YUPPY::PATEMAN | I'm not a doctor, so call me Paul | Mon Jun 25 1990 09:23 | 33 |
| Great race! And good decision by the beeb to go live to the finish.
Mansell & Berger brought back memories of Arnoux/Villeneuve at
Zandvoort!
Mansell's move on Berger at the Peralta was superb, especially on
dodgy tyres. According to the paper this a.m. Prost got by Mansell
when Nige got boxed in behind two back markers. I would have loved
to have seen Mansell chase down Prost if he hadn't have spun.
Senna obviously made a tactical mistake in not pitting for tyres
at some point. McHonda obviously underestimated Ferrari's reliability
& speed. The two are clearly approaching level terms now. If Murray
is to be believed Williams-Renualt have now got the most powerful
engine, so its a shame they haven't got a fraction better drivers.
Patrese & Boutsen are good, but have to be rated a little behind
the top 4. Benetton also look a good bet with more Ford power coming
at Ricard. Should be a great European tour this season.
I'd be surprised if we didn't see the Honda V12 soon, as they are
testing at Silverstone this week - isn't it also meant to be a new
design McLaren too?
Saturday's paper reckoned that Senna had now re-signed for two more
years with McLaren. Also, Scabrioni(sp?) is leaving Ferrari and
Steve Nichol will design the '91 car.
Roll on Ricard & Silverstone! We'll even be able to watch Ricard
rather than Wimbledon as we've signed up for cable this weekend!
Paul
ps - deepest sympathies to Leyton House, but at least no new teams
scored points.
|
837.511 | Messrs Lavigne and Frost had it perfect!!! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Mon Jun 25 1990 09:25 | 52 |
| Ferrari did what they have long promised they would do on the high-speed
circuits and thoroughly trounced Marlboro McLaren-Honda on the road to score a
convincing and timely 1-2 victory.
Alain Prost came through from a miserable 13th on the grid to work his
way slowly and persistently through the field, passing both Mansell and Senna
on the road to win by a comfortable 24s. As far as I could tell from the rather
scrappy TV highlights, he did not stop for tyres in a race where many people
did or suffered the consequences of not stopping. His second win of the season
puts him equal 2nd (with Berger) in the Driver's Championship now just 8 points
behind Senna.
Nigel Mansell, from 4th on the grid, had a tardy start and was lying
only 7th in the early stages behind the two McLarens, the two Williams,
Piquet's Benetton and cheeky Jean Alesi. Next thing we knew he was picking off
the Williams' one at a time with Prost a little way behind in the order Senna,
Boutsen, Mansell, Patrese, Prost. Then, with no indication how it happened, we
were treated to the sight of Senna (who had held a comfortable 20s+ lead most of
the race, being hounded by both Ferraris with Prost now ahead of Mansell. They
both nipped through as Senna struggled for grip with obviously shot tyres before
Mansell almost threw it all away with a quick spin, allowing Senna back into
2nd place. Not long after, only a handful of laps from home, the McLaren's
right rear gave up the struggle and Senna limped it all the way round only to
retire at the pits.
Gerhard Berger started the race from pole position again (alongside
Boutsen, I think), dumping Senna back to row two alongside Mansell but got
jumped by the Williams at the start and pitted quite early on for a new set of
tyres. His drive back through the field was totally unnoticed by the cameras
until he was suddenly right behind Mansell, who at this point was just
recovering from his spin. With just a couple of laps to go, Gerhard
slipstreamed the Ferrari down the long main straight, jinked out for the right-
hander at the end and slid up the inside with all four wheels locked up!!
Mansell had to concede the corner to avoid being punted off but it obviously
got to him, especially after the incident with Berger in Imola, and he tore
after the McLaren in a very determined mood, driving round the outside of the
McLaren at the incredibly fast 180 degree corner before the start/finish
straight on the penultimate lap and hung on to finish about 1s ahead.
Nannini never really featured in this race, being comprehensively
blown off by teammate Piquet in the early stages, Nelson getting as high as 2nd
before, apparently, stopping for tyres. The Benettons finished 4th and 6th,
sandwiching Boutsen's Williams, which just held off Piquet by less than 1
second at the flag. Alesi finished 7th at a circuit where his power
disadvantage showed up badly, while Donnelly and Warwick brought both Lotuses
to the flag in 8th and 10th places with Patrese's Williams in between.
There are two more fast circuits following, Ricard (8th July) and
Silverstone (15th). Alain Prost won both races for McLaren last year with
Senna failing to finish either while Mansell finished second each time in the
Ferrari with Berger failing to finish either!! Now wouldn't it be nice if
history could be repeated.....
|
837.512 | It happened like this | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Jun 25 1990 10:02 | 18 |
| to .509
Mansell continued charging after Senna. Prost was at this time about
fifth.
The race ran its course for about five laps with Mansell and Prost
gaining on Senna. I recall seeing "Mansell from Senna - 13 secs.
Prost from Mansell 1.58 secs.
Prost rushed passed Mansell at a rather busy time (5 cars bunched) and
from that time on started making really dramatic gains on Senna.
Prost passed Senna, Mansel did the same on the next lap and .... Berger
came charging up.
Prost was consistently setting fastest lap at this time.
Last lap and Berger takes Mansell for all of about 40 seconds, Mansell
returns the compliment to Berger just before the last lefthander.
|
837.513 | Mansell was never going to catch Prost! | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under 'Common Knowledge' | Mon Jun 25 1990 10:39 | 42 |
| Hmmm....
BBC coverage seems somewhat skimpy. Lets add some details that may help.
Patrese made best start.
Senna and Berger were cruising it; except Berger wrecked his tyres keeping up,
and pitted.
So, for the first half of race we had McHonda 1-2, (25 seconds gap), Piquet (
then 3 seconds gap), Williams twins, Nannini, Mansell - all in a train. Prost
was a long way back, but over a period of 15 laps caught up towards the back
of the procession.
All cars' tyres started to go off, except Ferrari, who went past the cars in
front of them in quick succession.
After overtaking Piquet for second place, Mansell was 7 seconds ahead of
Prost and 18 seconds behind Senna. Ferraris then proceeded to swap fastest lap,
with Prost catching up ever so slightly. It was clear that, during the early
laps he had protected his tyres on this abrasive track.
Mansell got held up by Grouillard, allowing Prost to catch right up. Mansell
took him just before the straight - similar manoeuvre to the one pulled on
Berger; pulling out a couple of seconds on Prost. However, it was clear the
Prost was faster. Two laps later, on the main straight, Prost took Mansell
very, very well indeed, as they were going past two backmarkers.
All the time, they were pulling in Senna, who was now only 9 seconds ahead, and
cleary struggling. Both Ferraris overtook him a few laps later. Prost had
pulled out a 6 second lead on Mansell.
Mansell was determined to win, and tried too hard, spinning the car.
Unfortunately, the TV coverage missed the incident; but we did see him reverse
back onto the track - he had stopped inches from the barrier. Prost was now 24
seconds ahead.
The Berger/Mansell tussell has already been wel documented in this note.
Cheers
Steve
|
837.514 | Nigel might have caught him... | YUPPY::PATEMAN | I'm not a doctor, so call me Paul | Mon Jun 25 1990 10:54 | 15 |
| For the first 15 minutes of the BBC coverage we hadn't a clue what
was going on! After showing the start, with a lot of shots from
Alboreto's car going backwards fast, there was a quick shot of Senna
taking the lead. Then we cut to lap 10 with Senna 5 secs ahead of
Berger. Next we knew it was Senna from Piquet, with no mention of
what happened to Berger. Then, an in car shot with Gerhard and mention
of his tyres. Then, a quick shot of Patrese pulling into the pits,
and a quick cut to "And you join us live...."
I would have liked a bit more coverage of the middle of the race,
but I was glad they showed the end live. I guess that the beeb intended
to keep editing on the fly, but took the decision to go live when
the Ferrari's started catching Senna.
Paul
|
837.515 | Oh to have been a fly on the wall! | FERNEY::SMITH | Haute Cuisine - 50 ways to cook Oats! | Mon Jun 25 1990 10:56 | 6 |
| I would like to know what was being said between the drivers and
the pits of both McHonda & Ferrari teams!
A very entertaining last 10 minutes (or so) I thought.
Martin.
|
837.516 | Brill, Groovy and Fab - bring back the 70s. | MARVIN::RUSLING | MicroServer Phase V Session Control | Mon Jun 25 1990 11:09 | 11 |
| The first part of the Beeb's coverage had me (and my wife) guessing, however,
once they swapped to live coverage for the last 9 laps we were completely
hooked. I have to come clean and state that I am a fan of Mansell (my first
ever Grand Prix was watching Mansell win at Silverstone), so to watch him spin,
recover, get overtaken and then re-take 2nd was magic. This had me on the
edge of my seat, cheering.
After last year's processions, I've got my tast back for watching them live,
anyone got any tickets for Silverstone?
Dave
|
837.517 | You pays your money.... | YUPPY::PATEMAN | I'm not a doctor, so call me Paul | Mon Jun 25 1990 11:30 | 8 |
| Re -1
If you want grandstand tickets try Keith Prowse on 081-741 8999.
You'll pay #15 over the odds but you're guaranteed a view. Otherwise,
just turn up *very* early and pay at the gate. You should get a
spot somewhere.
Paul
|
837.518 | Hombre, what a race, Ol�! | LISVAX::BRITO | | Mon Jun 25 1990 11:45 | 34 |
| The two Ferrari won the race, but IMHO they still don't have the power to beat
the McHondas. When the Ferrari started closing the gap between them and Senna
the TV commentators started saying that the Ferrari had improved their
performance and so on. I still don't believe it...
I hadn't the chance to watch the whole race, but when I started watching it
Senna was leading and had a 18 sec advantage. Berger was 11th. Suddenly the
Ferrari started closing the gap. But Berger who was also driving a McHonda was
doing tremendously well. So well, that he even managed to be second for a short
period in that duel with Mansel. (Last season that was called dangerous
driving !). The way Prost and Mansel went by Senna only shows that the McLaren
from Senna was having problems (which was showed later - tires). But the
recovery from Berger proves also that the Mclaren are doing alright. After all
the "old" Honda V10 will probably be replaced soon. The point that am trying to
make is that unless there are problems with the McHondas the other teams don't
stand much chances. The real surprise to me is Berger. I was impressed with the
images of the cam in his car. What a sensation! It was like flying real low 8-)
The duel Mansel and Berger had, could have ended in a big accident.
Mansell was absolutely wild after the risky manouvre of Berger.
The image of his Ferrari quickly switching from left to right and
left again behind Berger was amazing... The colour of his face must
have been the same of his car. RED :-)) But the way he regained
the second place. Only a great driver gets away with that.
An exciting GP...
Regards,
RUI
regards,
RUI
|
837.519 | Lies, Damn Lies & Statistics | YUPPY::PATEMAN | I'm not a doctor, so call me Paul | Mon Jun 25 1990 12:27 | 47 |
| Full result
1 Prost Ferrari 1:32.35.783 Av speed 122.75mph
2 Mansell Ferrari - 25.351s
3 Berger McLaren - 25.530s
4 Nannini Benetton - 41.099s
5 Boutsen Williams - 46.669s
6 Piquet Benetton - 46.943s
7 Alesi Tyrrell - 49.077s
8 Donnelly Lotus - 1:06.942s
9 Patrese Williams - 1:09.918s
10 Warwick Lotus 1 lap
11 Modena Brabham 1 lap
12 Martini Minardi 1 lap
13 de Cesaris Dallara 1 lap
14 Barilla Minardi 2 laps
15 Foitek Onyx 2 laps
16 Larini Ligier 2 laps
17 Alboreto Arrows 3 laps
18 Alliot Ligier 3 laps
19 Grouillard Osella 4 laps
20 Senna McLaren 6 laps
Standings
Senna 31pts McLaren 54pts
Berger/ Ferrari 36pts
Prost 23pts Williams/
Alesi/ Benetton 20pts
Piquet/ Tyrrell 14pts
Mansell 13pts Brabham/
Boutsen 11pts Arrows 2pts
Patrese 9pts Larrouse/
Nannini 7pts Lotus 1pt
Modena/
Caffi 2pts
Nakajima/
Bernard/
Warwick 1pt
Very high reliability with 20 classified finishers. As Moreno was
excluded before the start (I think) that's only 5 retirees, Brabham,
Nakajima, Suzuki, Pirro and Lhetto.
Paul
|
837.520 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Jun 25 1990 12:30 | 10 |
| It's part of the game ! Setting up the car properly is the way
to win races. Prost has always been very good at it. From what I
saw last night the 2 Ferrari's had the correct setup for the race
(chassis height, flaps, rubber).
The 2 McLarens were eating their tyres. My only question is "why
didn't they stop Senna earlier ?". Remember Adelaide.
The Ferraris ran fast and did not break. That's an interesting
perspective for the coming fast circuits.
|
837.521 | Still adds up to a hell of a lot of fun! | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under 'Common Knowledge' | Mon Jun 25 1990 12:41 | 29 |
| RE: .518
RUI,
Couldn't agree more. Senna was beaten my two special factors of the
Mexico circuit - a rough surface, and setup difficulties (slow corners mixed
with long straights). This will not happen often; and McLaren (particularly
Senna), will still be the team to beat in November.
Dangerous driving? Well, if Mansell has learnt his lesson from last
year (when he and Senna started their shouting match - so publicising the
danger), then he and Berger will get away with these "incidents" (San Marino,
Mexico, ?). The lesson is to keep things quiet - not to give newspapers
criticisms to report/embellish. If the incidents do become publicised, then
FISA will "step" in again.
Finally, Berger is a terrific driver, phenomenally fast; and a nice
guy as well; but he definitely seems to lack race-craft. Every race, you know
that he will be hard on his tyres; and will be in trouble if the tyre wear
situation is "marginal". The wet track, which conserved his tyres, was why he
was so competitive in Canada.
Last night typified Berger. He wrecked his tyres keeping up with Senna.
Then, when he's caught Mansell up EASILY (Mansell of course had messed up
trying to keep up with Prost - but that's another story :-) ), rather than wait
a lap to overtake SAFELY, he tries to force it. I think that locking all four
whells up "flat-spotted" the tyres - that's my only explanation for how
Mansell was able to re-overtake him after being so much slower before.
|
837.522 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Mon Jun 25 1990 13:21 | 37 |
| First, Congratulations to those noters who predicted a Ferrari
1-2.
Without repeating too much a lot that's been said before -
* It was probably a great race, pity the BBC tele coverage was
so abysmal.
* Pirreli qualifiers were very superior producing a grid with
Minardi, Brabham and Tyrrell all ahead of Prost. It couldn't last
though and it didn't.
* 9 cars finishing on the same lap must be a record going back a
long way - good news for the racing.
* Prost's victory was doubtless due to his skill in conserving
tyres etc. They don't call him the professor for nothing. Even
so there was a massive ring of blisters on his LH front.
* Bergers stab at Mansell was akin to activities that were getting
fines last year. It's funny how drivers can behave very reasonably
for years and get ragged when they get a scent of the world
championship.
* Mansell's retaking of Berger was, well, amazing, and extremely
risky, going off the racing line on the peralta like that.
Lots of adrenalin flowing I fancy.
* Mexico used to be a graveyard for engines back in the turbo era.
They'd use the turbo boost to maintain power but the thin air didn't
cool them. Now the opposite appears true, huge number of finishers.
* A great result for the world championship, and some hugely
competitive racing expected when they get back to europe!.
-John
|
837.523 | strategy planning | PCOJCT::MILBERG | I was a DCC - 3 jobs ago! | Mon Jun 25 1990 14:16 | 9 |
| ESPN (USA cable coverage) showed the race tape delayed from midnite to
2:00 am last night.
They interviewed Ron Dennis after the race and he took 'credit' for the
tactical error of not bringing Senna in for tires when he had the big
lead - to get in and back out without losing position.
-Barry-
|
837.524 | | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Jun 25 1990 14:44 | 7 |
| I think it should be noted that a good driver will carry a lot of sway,
before the start as to what tyres are needed for the conditions.
Power or not, it was the Ferrari of Prost that consistently set fastest
lap times.
regards George Frost
|
837.525 | Groundhog takes out Senna ;-) Ferrari takes 1-2 | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Mon Jun 25 1990 15:28 | 22 |
| Well since everything has already been said, all I can say is my
groundhog finally came through and got the right car. ;-)
:-):-):-):-):-)
Sorry I couldn't help laughing....what a race. Unlike everybody
in England us Canadians actually got to see the entire race, except
for some short blackouts (like when Berger went for tires, and when
Mansell spun out)...
One of the most entertaining races in a long time!!!!!!
Now can the Ferrari Frenchman win in France :-)
Let's here from everyone can Ferrari take another 1-2....
As an aside... where can I get 1 of those huge Ferrari flags I see
at all the races.(It would look just wonderful as a backdrop to
my collection 0f 12 Ferraris).
FCGT
|
837.526 | How many??? you must mean Dinkys | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Jun 25 1990 15:49 | 4 |
| Don't you need a reaaaaaly huuuuuge flag to act as a backdrop to your
12 Ferraris.??
|
837.527 | Yes I am a billionaire:-) :-) | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Mon Jun 25 1990 16:09 | 17 |
| Yes the flag has to be approximately 50 feet by about 75 feet....
;-).. And the collection is worth $58,000,000.00
No I am just kidding the cars range in size from about 8 inches
long to about 15 inches for the older formula racers. But I am
still interested in the flag. Do they sell them at the races or
would I be able to get one at one of those meetings of classic Ferraris
(I think they call them Concourse D'Elegance or somehting like that)
I have recently become a member of the FCA and look forward to
seeing (finally) all the great cars I have only read about and built
(on a small scale) ;-)
What a race eh......
Regards,
FCGT
|
837.528 | Brought to you by the Old El Paso ... | BREW11::BELL | Martin Bell, EIS Birmingham, UK | Mon Jun 25 1990 16:19 | 12 |
| > Sorry I couldn't help laughing....what a race. Unlike everybody
> in England us Canadians actually got to see the entire race, except
Eurosport (satellite) covered the whole race live, but i can't say
i was impressed by the "originating tv company" - we kept getting
shots of enchiladas being fried, tacos being eaten etc.
Someone must have paid a lot in backhanders to get their products
advertised for free!
mb
|
837.529 | Are they better than Murray & James? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | I'm not a doctor, so call me Paul | Mon Jun 25 1990 16:32 | 10 |
| Re -1
Martin,
What was the commentary etc like on Eurosport? Also what was the
coverage of practice like?
The reason I ask is that I'll be watching it from now on!
Paul
|
837.530 | Eurosport | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under 'Common Knowledge' | Mon Jun 25 1990 16:53 | 50 |
| RE -.1
Paul,
There are good sides and bad sides to Eurosport.
- All Grand Prix are shown live, from start to finish
BUT...
they're constantly interrupted by adverts.
- There are usually two half-hour programs on practice Friday night
and Saturday night
BUT...
the first twenty minutes is usually prepared stuff (interviews with
designers/drivers), leaving 10 minutes for practice. At some events,
ie. Canada - we were told, 25 minutes into the broadcast, that
technical difficulties prevented them showing practice!
- Watson is a good, informed commentator (much better than Hunt, I
reckon)
BUT...
Andrew Marriott is roughly equivalent to Murray Walker - without
the humour (intentional, or not)
In summary, F1 coverage is very comprehensive - but can be somewhat
specious.
- Other motor racing coverage. Turns you into a junkie! Over the
last couple of weekends I have had the "opportunity" to see:
- British Formula 3.
- German Formula 3
- WSPC - good coverage.
- F3000
- German Touring Car Championship
- World Championship Rallying.
And never mind if you missed the program 'cos they show it again and
again and again.....
The reason for the comprehensive coverage is that Eurosport is NOT
owned by Sky Channel - it is just beamed out of Sky's satellite (so Murdoch
would like you to think that he provides the service). It is owned by the EBU
(European Broadcasting Union), which is made up of the major national
broadcasting companies - like the BBC (40% interest), RAI (Italy), ARD(?)
(Germany) etc. They provide the programs which they are broadcasting on their
own network. So you get to hear Murray commentating on Formula 3 etc. etc.
Cheers
Steve
|
837.531 | Can't wait 'til Tuesday | YUPPY::PATEMAN | I'm not a doctor, so call me Paul | Mon Jun 25 1990 17:19 | 17 |
| Re -1
Thanks for the info on Eurosport. I reckon we'll continue to watch
the Beeb where possible, 'cos despite everything I do like Murray
and James.
The other stuuf is a great bonus though. Plus on our cable we get
Screensport as well, so we get CART and NASCAR. When they're not
racing round ovals, they're worth watching.
Re Mexico
I thing mentioned in the Observer was that Mexico's contract for
next year hadn't been signed. Wonder where Bernie is thinking about
taking them?
Paul
|
837.532 | I'm going for it... | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Tue Jun 26 1990 08:54 | 22 |
| I'll go for another Ferrari 1-2. McLaren-Honda are temporarily down but
certainly not out and they have proved that they have the consistency
to stay on top for a long time (over several seasons). However, while
it is hard to get to the top, it is even harder to stay there, so they
say! I reckon Ferrari are on a roll and that the next two European
races, on fast circuits which suit them, are going to be Ferrari
benefits.
Mansell is a very determined trier, never gives up, always pushes as
hard as he can but has found a new maturity this year. Prost really
drives with his head and is one of (the?) best setteruperrer of racing
cars in the business. Senna is probably the best mixture of these two
and undoubtedly the man to beat every time. Berger is like Mansell in
his Williams days - almost there but too ragged, not consistent enough.
So, two wins for Ferrari, at least one of them for Mansell. McLarens
are thereabouts but reliability/accidents prevent a win. Williams and
Benetton are up there, as is Alesi) and scoring points but not wins.
Ok, shoot!
Colin
|
837.533 | I'll go with the red cars too | YUPPY::PATEMAN | I'm not a doctor, so call me Paul | Tue Jun 26 1990 09:10 | 23 |
| I agree that Ferrari will be the team to beat at Ricard. However,
part of Prost's success on Sunday was due to the fact that he
concentrated on race set up rather than fast times in practice.
This was due to Ferrari still not being able to get their qualifiers
to work. Maybe all the teams could learn something form this!!
Anyway, I'd be surprised to see another tactical mistake by Team
Perfect, unless it is a very major one - ie being paniced into using
the V12 too early. The car should be testing at the FISA tyre tests
at Silverstone late this week - anybody able to spy? It must be
tempting for them to give it a go if it works "out of the box".
On my favourite (and self-interested) hobby horse, I can't see any
"minor" teams picking up points to avoid the 8am start at Ricrad
or Silverstone. The big 4 (as we now have to say) are starting to
look dominant, and when they fail Lotus and Tyrrell look to be able
to pick up the pieces.
So, looks like Ivan and Mauricio will have to get up a bit earlier
on Fridays. I've got a Leyton House factory visit lined up for the
Wednesday after Silverstone - that could be *very* depressing!
Paul
|
837.534 | | OVAL::KERRELLD | Where do I sign? | Tue Jun 26 1990 12:47 | 7 |
| > Berger is like Mansell in
> his Williams days - almost there but too ragged, not consistent enough.
Minor nitpick, I think you mean "early William's days". Mansell's two best
years were at William's.
Dave.
|
837.535 | | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Tue Jun 26 1990 14:07 | 23 |
| Yes, I wonder whether Prost was not much worried about his
grid position last sunday. Mexico is probably the widest,
easiest to pass circuit in the calendar. It's a pity some
other circuits don't follow the lead.
On France. Certainly it'll be close, but I doubt whether one
good result makes Ferrari favourites. If Renault have some
special engines up their sleeves they'll certaily bring them
out for the home race, and Benetton will definitely be using
the 'new' Cosworth (unless that is they used it in Mexico).
Ferrari's 'super engine' still seems a bit doubtful. So many
variables. I noticed that in Mexico the Williams left the
Ferrari on the straight, but not the Benetton. This isn't just
a question of HP but also the amount of wing the decided they
needed. McLaren uses lots of wing, their cars handling isn't
as good as the other leading contenders (it's the only one
still using pull rod front suspension too) but the engine
may still be the best.
Anyway I'll go for this - Piquet, Boutsen, Prost.
-John
|
837.536 | Is it Patrese's Ricard? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Jun 26 1990 15:26 | 14 |
| Agreed with .535.
If anything forecasting now becomes more difficult since 3 or 4 teams
are "in the running".
However Paul Ricard is one of the Prost favourites and has been noted,
one of the fastest circuits. So (barring Murphy) the winner will be the
the driver with the most consistant times even though another car may
have the straight line performance edge.
My money? Ferrari - Prost
Williams - Piquet
McLaren - Senna
McLaren - Berger
|
837.537 | more on the Mexico race | BROKE::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Tue Jun 26 1990 18:47 | 65 |
| I'm a little late in the game: in the US, we had the ESPN broadcast a
canned verion at midnight, which I canned and watched yesterday.
We did have an advantage over you Brits: we got to see the whole race
(minus commercials). Except that the Mexican cameramen made some really
wierd choices, often being out of the action. For instance, we say
Prost get alongside Patrese at the end of the staight, but the camera
stayed on an odd lapped car, and we didn't see the pass. There were a
number of passes that happened just off screen.
On the other hand, seeing the whole action can fill in some holes:
On Prost/Mansell: we didn't see much of the professor before the third
of the race, but he was apparently making ground from his abismal start
point. We caught up with the actions with the the two red cars 5 and
6th - there was a nice view of the two Williams and the two ferraris,
all in the same staight.
At one point, Prost was all over Mansell, clearly faster (he had
probably been consistently faster all along to catch up to 6th in the
first place). Then they came on Patresse, Mansell got around relatively
easily, but Prost was held up very long, with Patresse apparently very
uncooperative. In particular, you could see the Williams
windshield-wipping in the end of the pit straight, keeping Prost
behind, and there were a couple of attempted passes from Prost where it
really looked like Patresse was chopping him off rather nastilly.
In any case, that gave Mansell breathing space - I think he took
Boutsen before Prost got around Patrese. When Prost finally got around
first one Williams then the other, he was again making rapid ground. In
particular, he apparently was some 6s down on his teammate after
getting around both Williams, and caught up in very few laps - he was
gaining over a second a lap. Passing Mansell was quite clean, and he
pulled away impressively fast (only to be caught up when he was held up
by Senna for a few laps).
Piquet dropped out at one point for a tyre change.
The end of the race was beautiful. I think this is the first time we
see Prost actually pass Senna for a long time. The ease was quite
suprising.
On an interview, Ron Denis said that the McHonda did not suffer from
tyre wear, but from a puncture - something made more probable by the
fact that it was the rear right that gave, while everyboy was having
problems on the right side, particularly the front right.
I'd like to know what was happening at the end: was Senna slowing down,
or did Prost become very fast. They didn't give many times, so you
couldn't tell, we only know that Prost was doing very nasty things to
the lap time, over and over again - so his 1s/lap on Senna could be his
being quite fast.
Berger: was he really that impressive? he stopped for tyres with 15s on
Prost, and ended 25s behind. So he lost 40s, much more than the time he
lost in the change (what does that take, somewhere around 15-20s, with
deceleration/acceleration?). So Prost was actually faster, despite
Berger having newer tyres.
All in all, a beautiful race. A nice change from last year's dull
"which red-and-white driver hates the other one most", and by the way,
what the hell did the other 24 drivers do, apart from providing traffic
jams for AS to show his devil-daring passing techniques?
JP
|
837.538 | re .536 Piquet in a WHAT???!!! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Wed Jun 27 1990 08:57 | 1 |
|
|
837.539 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under 'Common Knowledge' | Wed Jun 27 1990 09:55 | 8 |
| RE: -.1
Well, TF1 (the French channel), had Senna in a Williams when they showed the
starting grid.
Maybe an all samba Williams team in 1991? :-)
Steve
|
837.540 | time to sort them out! | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Jun 27 1990 10:20 | 6 |
| Sorry all,
for Piquet read Patrese
regards George Frost
|
837.541 | it was a tyres race | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Thu Jun 28 1990 19:24 | 11 |
| Tyres at Mexico
Senna admitted that he asked for a last minute change on the
grid: different tyre pressures ! His choice was obviously good
(compared to Berger's 1st set). But it is obvious that the Ferrari
used its tyres in a better way than the McLaren ...
The Goodyear qualifiers did not work. Best lap during the race (new
lap record) by Prost is almost exactly the pole position lap time
by Berger.
|
837.542 | *that* fast? | BROKE::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Thu Jun 28 1990 23:18 | 8 |
| re .-1
So that would probably mean that Prost was probably *very* fast at the
end, rather than Senna being slow. Did Prost actually run faster during
the race (with race tyres, and in pretty poor state at that) than
during the qualifiers???
JP
|
837.543 | Various | VANILA::LINCOLN | The sun has got his hat on | Fri Jun 29 1990 15:54 | 28 |
| In Mexico the two Williams runners chose the harder 'B' compound,
reasoning that the 'C' wouldn't last. Well in some ways they were
correct but the Bs didn't give enough grip which cost them a much
better showing (Patrese pitted for a change to Cs).
The trick was to choose Cs and conserve them as best as possible.
Prost does that sort of thing best it seems, although his tyres
looked worse than Mansell's at the end.
The Life team are still turning up at the races and running the
car until the W12 gives way, usually a laps worth in order to
keep in the business. Meanwhile they're trying to buy Lotus'es
stock of Judd engines.
The McLaren Honda V12 is testing this week at Silverstone, but
boss Ron Dennis says it's just preparation for next season.
Michael Andretti (son of Mario) is looking for a F1 drive next
year, maybe in a Benetton.
There are shakeups in the design teams at Ferrari (too many cooks?),
Leyton House (Desperation?) and McLaren (needing to do some new
thinking?).
My tip for Silverstone (since I'm away till after then) is a
Williams 1-2 with Patrese winning his 200th race.
-John
|
837.544 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Fri Jun 29 1990 18:38 | 18 |
| re .542
Yes, Prost went faster and faster. He did exactly as always: start
"slow" when the tank is full, plenty of cars on the track, conserve
tyres ... etc ... He regularly radioed the Ferrari team to ask for
Senna's times. At the end he understood that Senna was in trouble
with the rears and he put the pressure. Prost declared that his
tyres where "as new" on the finish line.
The Mexico track provides almost no grip, very slippery, allowing
cars to carry very little flaps = allowing high speeds and poor
cornering which normally means: tyres will suffer. Because of the
slippery surface, the above combination could work. In addition
Prost chose to have less flaps on his car than on Mansell's.
The new surface at Paul Ricard should be somewhat similar (not as
bad in terms of grip). I'm looking forward to watch the fast guys
in courbe de Signes ....
|
837.545 | Courbe des signes | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Jul 03 1990 11:22 | 3 |
| see you there Patrick
George Frost
|
837.546 | How do to get there ? | RUTILE::BROOKSBANK | | Wed Jul 04 1990 15:27 | 7 |
| Can someone give me directions on how to get to the Paul Ricard
circuit.
Ta !
Colin.
|
837.547 | go west young man, go west | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Jul 04 1990 16:15 | 5 |
| Head west on the autoroute from Nice to Marseilles and CASTELLET will
be signposted via a Route National (a green signpost).
I don't know the number of the Route National.
regards George Frost
|
837.548 | Ferrari takes 1-3 this time | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Wed Jul 04 1990 16:46 | 15 |
| OK here comes my (guess) prediction ;-) for the upcoming race.
BTW Gordon, what did I win for guessing the Mexican G.P.? And no
I do not use a crystal ball, and when did you ever see me walk anyways....
Well on to the prediction.... I see a Ferrari winning not sure
exactly who... then I see another Ferrari coming in third (must
be the other guy).... then I see a Mclaren coming in second..I think
it's Berger. Senna is taken out about 2/3 through the race
by...............BERGER. Believe it or not that's what I see..
I mean predict ;-)
Should be another very entertaining race.
Regards,
FCGT
|
837.549 | Another Ferrari win! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Thu Jul 05 1990 08:59 | 7 |
| Another Ferrari 1-2 with Williams and Benetton filling the top 6!
The boys from Benetton (spotted them preparing the cars over the
weekend) are VERY confident for both Ricard and Silverstone - they have
the new development engine. I said I agreed to them having one if Nigel
could have the other....
Colin
|
837.550 | Equilibrium to balance out again. | YUPPY::PATEMAN | I'm not a doctor, so call me Paul | Fri Jul 06 1990 09:56 | 35 |
| Prediction for Sunday........
Prost again, spurred on by the Ricard crowd (if there is one?)
Subject to reliability, a McLaren/Ferrari 1-2-3-4.
Other bits:
Ligier favourites for the early morning call after Silverstone.
Unless they or EuroBrun, Osella, Coloni, AGS and Life can somehow
score a point, Larrousse will be able to have a lie-in. Dallara
and L/House haven't scored any points in the twelve month qualification
period, but both have 3 7ths so they are next up after the 11 points
scorers. Ligier has finished no higher than 9th.
Eddie Jordan Grand Prix has a contract with Ford for HB engines
next year. That should make them competitive from day 1 and could
possibly tempt some interesting drivers.
Mansell looking at Ferrari, Williams and just maybe Benetton for
next year. Rumours say that the one he rejects out of Ferrari and
Williams will get Alesi if they pay Uncle Ken's buy out clause.
Another team after one of the big boys for next year is Arrows with
the temptation of Porsche power. Boutsen is supposedly a good bet.
Adrian Newey now with Williams as a home based senior engineer working
on aerodynamics.
GLAS still looking to go ahead despite the disappearance of the
Mexican money. Mauro Baldi began testing at Imola last week.
Anybody out there got the prequal. times from Ricard yet?
Paul
|
837.551 | Espo_larousse - seat of learning? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Fri Jul 06 1990 12:37 | 5 |
| No times, but Eric Bernard (Espo-Larousse) has so far best times.
Aguri Suzuki and the two AGS of Gabriele Torquini (Italy) and Yannick
Dalmas (France), have qualified.
|
837.552 | | LISVAX::BRITO | | Fri Jul 06 1990 13:38 | 10 |
| Predictions...
Mine are that things will go back to normal...and normal is:
Senna >pole>best lap>a win
Berger>2ndplace in the grid>a few problems>2ndplace
:-)
RUI
|
837.553 | Normal is, not as normal was | ULYSSE::FROST | | Fri Jul 06 1990 13:52 | 1 |
| Its a long time since Senna had best lap
|
837.554 | I hope its worth it! | MOVIES::BLAKE | cterminator | Sat Jul 07 1990 19:48 | 3 |
| For anybody who's going to Silverstone next week but hasn't yet bought
tickets the "on the day" price �38. Pretty expensive, huh? How does
compare to other European circuits I wonder?
|
837.555 | Cheaper at home | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Jul 09 1990 08:54 | 8 |
| < re: 554>
Entry for two (and parking) to Paul Ricard yesterday cost 640FF. No
grandstands or anything like that.
In terms of your funny money thats about 34 pounds each.
regards George Frost
|
837.556 | On Cloud 9! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | I'm not a doctor, so call me Paul | Mon Jul 09 1990 09:37 | 42 |
| Great race! The Beeb managed to edit out the tension, but thanks
to EuroSport we saw the whole thing.
Excellent drive by Prost. He paced himself very well, and proved
his point that its the leader on the last lap that counts. Another
smoky end for Mansell, he must be on the brink of going back to
Williams now. McLaren looked distinctly mortal again, Benetton were
close but no cigar, and Williams were a bit disappointing again.
BUT.................
Go for it Leyton House!!!!!!!!
At last something to cheer about. Excellent drives by both Ivan and
Mauricio. What's all this about V8's only being competitive on slow
circuits with sticky Pirelli's and budding superstars then?
Seriously, good tactical race by the team, and it did the heart
good to see them running 1st & 2nd for so long. The BBC missed most
of it giving the impression that Prost breezed past Gugelmin almost
immediately which was not the case, and as for Murray & James's
comments about Prost being the real leader and the Leyton House
cars being in tyre trouble etc ....... HA!
So we now (possibly) have yet another team capable of running at
the front, and one looking forward to the engine that dominates
CART next year.
As a side issue, we watched the cable coverage for the first time
expecting to be a bit disappointed, but instead it was excellent.
Limited ad breaks (better than ESPN in the States), good pre-race
programmes and interviews, sensible commentary. I'll give the Beeb
another shot by recording their coverage of Silverstone but they
better watch out!
Congrats too to TF1 for generally good coverage. The backwards
Larrousse shot of Capelli and Prost was excellent.
Roll on Silverstone.
Paul
|
837.557 | brief french gp report - go for it LH!! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Mon Jul 09 1990 09:47 | 63 |
| Alain Prost won the French G.P. for Ferrari (his 5th success in his
home G.P.), the second successive win for the Prancing Horse marking an
historic 100th G.P. win. The Frenchman, from 3rd on the grid, had his usual
casual start (6th at the end of lap 1), stopped early for the tyre change and
was there at the right time to take Capelli's ailing March just two laps from
home.
"Wait a minute, you mean Nannini's Benetton or Patrese's Williams or..
Capelli's March???" Yup. From a strong qualifying position (sharing the fourth
row of the grid), the two Leyton House cars ran strongly throughout in their
best showing for a couple of years. Almost uniquely, they elected to run non-
stop on the new Ricard surface and so nearly made it, running serenely 1-2 at
the head of the field from when Patrese stopped for tyres (soon after Capelli
grabbed the lead from him on lap 32) until Prost caught and passed Gugelmin
about 10 laps later (just before the Judd expired at the pit entrance).
Capelli's straight-line speed made it very difficult for Prost to overtake,
which he did emaculately on the inside at the double right-hander with just
two laps to go. Capelli then rolled it off as he struggled with failing oil
pressure, Senna catching up to within a few cars lengths at the flag.
The other Ferrari started from pole (for the first time this year)
but got relagated in the early laps by both McLarens, taking over the lead
briefly as they pitted before stopping himself. Mansell then chased Nannini
hard and was back in the top 6 when he appeared to stop a second time for
tyres soon before having the engine let go. Another disappointment.
Deposed to the second row of the grid, Senna tore past pole man Mansell
on the second lap and chased his teammate for 20 laps or so, taking him just
before the Austrian stopped for tyres. He stopped himself around lap 30, neither
McLaren getting away very well at all and Senna being delayed 16s on his stop,
dropping him to 8th just ahead of his teammate on lap 32 (when the order was
Capelli, Patrese, Gugelmin, Prost, Nannini, Mansell, Piquet, Senna, Berger).
Thereafter, the McLaren gained places due to others' misfortunes rather than
the driver's overtaking efforts and he ended up in 3rd with his teammate a
lacklustre 5th.
The Benettons were right there again, Nannini making Mansell's 3rd place
look quite insecure on occasions in the first quarter of the race with Piquet
hovering just outside the top six ahead of Alesi, Capelli, Gugelmin and Bernard.
After the stops, Nannini found himself meat in a Ferrari sandwich and hounded
Prost in his chase of the Marches. He disappeared just a handful of laps from
home leaving Piquet to pick up another dollop of points for 4th place, the 6th
time in seven races the Brazilian has scored points!
Boutsen had a very low-key day but Patrese was up there at the sharp end
holding down 5th place (behind the McLarens, Mansell and Nannini in the early
laps) and taking over the lead briefly when Senna and Mansell stopped for tyres
before him. His stop was slow and he rejoined 11th, picking up the places as
the front runners retired and ending up 6th.
Prost's third win of the season puts him within three tantalising points
of Senna with Piquet edging a point closer to Berger's 3rd place. Ferrari are
now 45 points to 60 in the Constructors' Championship with Benetton and Williams
scrapping over 3rd place with 23 and 21 points respectively.
RESULTS CHAMPIONSHIP
------- ------------
1. Prost - Ferrari Senna 35
2. Capelli - March Prost 32
3. Senna - McLaren Berger 25
4. Piquet - Benetton Piquet 16
5. Berger - McLaren Alesi/Mansell 13
6. Patrese - Williams
|
837.558 | Who needs more cylinders? | DOOZER::JENKINS | Adrenalin is brown.. �K.Morrissey | Mon Jul 09 1990 13:55 | 11 |
|
I'm very suprised at how well both the Benetton and Leyton House
V8s performed. Considering that this is a "fast" track, both of
them seemed quite capable of keeping pace with the more exotic
V10s and V12s.
Anyone know why the N/S/R wheels seemed to "jam" on both the
McHondas?
|
837.559 | My prediction for Silverstone!! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Tue Jul 10 1990 08:37 | 15 |
| Maybe something to do with "overheating hubs" due to the loads on
the nsr tyre combined with "dead fit" machining?? I'll see what MN has
to say tomorrow and post an answer here if I get time.
I reckon Nigel must start favourite for the British G.P. - his luck
this year has been pretty appalling and the Ferrari has shown itself to
have the legs of the McLarens at fast circuits sooooo...
I agree the Leyton Houses (Hice?) were pretty difficult to get past
though and Nannnini reckons his chances at Silverstone. Let's hope
Ayrton plants it in the sandtrap again, Prosty gets beaten up by his
teammate, Gerhard gets delayed, Nannini gets on the rostrum, a March is
up there too and a Lotus makes the top 6!
Colin
|
837.560 | ?? | STRIKR::LINDLEY | Strewth mate..... | Tue Jul 10 1990 09:48 | 4 |
| Does anyone know what time the untimed and timed practises are this
FRIDAY?
John
|
837.561 | Prost on the future - Senna on Wogan | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Tue Jul 10 1990 09:48 | 39 |
| EuroSport had an inteview with Prost on Sunday. It was reasonably
uncontroversial but he did say that he thought 3 or 4 cicuits were
unsuitable/unsafe for F1. The ones he quoted were Phoenix and Jerez.
Is it significant that these are also the poorest attended ;->
The discussion was prompted but rumours of the French GP going to
Magny Cours next year. Prost reckoned that France and GB rated a
second GP each, so Ricard could stay in the frame.
He also confirmed (or as good as did) that he will be with Ferrari
next year and that there is a fair chance he'll retire at the end
of next season, or '92 at the latest.
Also on Ricard -
Mansell was very unhappy with his Ferrari engine saying it was the
worst he had ever had from them. He also got wound up with FISA
as he couldn't supply the required amount of er..., um... fluid
for his drug test. He wanted to fly off home, FISA wanted to carry
on taking the p*** (nothing new do I hear you say?)
I'm not sure that even people power will help Nige this year on
home ground. His stock seems to be pretty low at Ferrari, and no
doubt if things continue, we'll get the "inferior machinery" stuff
surfacing again.
Silverstone should be great. Leyton House up & running again, a
new Ford engine for Benetton, Team Perfect under pressure and possibly
a race for the new Ferrari engine. Add to this a potential scramble
to avoid pre-qualifying (AGS vs Ligier vs Dallara?) and the two
Mika's AND Grouse vs Ravett - what more can you want? (Apart from
a decent view and a circuit like Brands!)
Just maybe Derek Warwick will get some bigger cheers this year as
he's in a British car.
Finally, Ayrton is on Wogan this wednesday, 7pm BBC1. Will Ron let
him say anything interesting?
Paul
|
837.562 | Friday Times | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Tue Jul 10 1990 09:52 | 11 |
| Re -2
From memory -
Pre qualifying 8 'til 9
Untimed warm up 10.30 'til 11.30 or 12
Timed Q1 1pm-2pm
Paul
|
837.563 | ta | STRIKR::LINDLEY | Strewth mate..... | Tue Jul 10 1990 10:03 | 3 |
| Thanks
John
|
837.564 | That sound again? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Jul 10 1990 10:07 | 3 |
| Paul, Colin and the rest of you out there, would somebody be kind
enough to post a transcript of the Wogan/Senna thing... well the
interesting bits anyway
|
837.565 | A hire view of things | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Jul 10 1990 11:36 | 20 |
| re. <<what more can you want? (Apart from a decent view and ....)
A couple of us were at Paul Ricard on Sunday and fell to musing about a
portable, self-erecting (to 1m50 which is the average slouch height of
the average beer sodden F1 Fan), unobtrusive, small footprint so as not
to endanger the lesser species of YABS (Your Average Beer-Sodden ......)
F1 fans, auto_stable to withstand side winds of (tbd) and those personally
generated by YABS.
Names for the moment escaped us but commercial acumen came it play
with a "lease scheme" know as the for Higher Viewing platform ...
I am convinced that such a platform with all the necessary attachment
points for matching Ice Cooler boxes, umbrellas etc, is feasible.
All one-liners as a start to a Product definition would be welcomed.
regards George Frost
|
837.566 | Define it.... it's already been built! | CHEFS::CLEMENTSD | Public Sector and Telecomms | Tue Jul 10 1990 12:40 | 2 |
| How about a small aluminium step ladder (say 3 rungs high) and four
tent pegs and short guys to lash it down with?
|
837.567 | | CHEFS::CLEMENTSD | Public Sector and Telecomms | Tue Jul 10 1990 12:42 | 3 |
| re -1 ...... and for those with a propensity for reading into what
was written not what was meant, in the last note "guys" does NOT
= people, but guy-ROPES...... ;^)
|
837.568 | Invented but not developed. | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Jul 10 1990 13:26 | 8 |
| PLEASE dont crowd the notes and cloud the issue. This is serious.
We are not looking to invent anything, we are looking to develop
an old idea (aluminium stepladders) using latest technologies etc.
A briefcase sized box, 10 kilos, gas discharge erectable (or electric),
room underneath it for other spectators, no view-blocking (telescopic
Kevlar wrapped tube section? etc etc ..
|
837.569 | Watch out below! | DOOZER::JENKINS | Adrenalin is brown.. �K.Morrissey | Tue Jul 10 1990 13:27 | 14 |
|
At Le Mans, there are usually quite a number of "portable viewing
structures", from stools to aluminium step-ladders to full blown
scaffolding.
My vote for an accessory to go with a tall viewing structure and
a lot of beer is a multi-purpose colour-coded bucket.
Nicknamed the "chukka kan" perhaps?
|
837.570 | You want ME to watch WOGAN, George??? | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Wed Jul 11 1990 08:43 | 6 |
| You want ME to watch WOGAN so YOU can hear HIM driveling on about
nasty red things that go bump in the night.....??
Might do.
Colin
|
837.571 | The next six | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Jul 11 1990 12:39 | 45 |
| Tks Colin. btw one Russ Collins here in Valbonne
(he_who_occasionally_reads_this_notes_file) is in possession of a new?
book on Senna. Not sure if it biography or auto, but Russ said that he
will get the title to me.
Perhaps you cn post it here Russ?
So whats it to be for Silverstone.
The last 10 laps of Paul Ricard were of great interest to me. The LH
cars seemed to be holding their own with Prost not having the oomph to
take first Gugelmin and then Capelli. Lap times for the first three were
nothing to write home about. The McLaren pair were not gaining
significantly.
A pre-race (Saturday evening) interview with Prost had him mentioning
that his qualifying time was slow vis-a-vis the potential of the car.
He said that in fact he lapped one second faster then Mansell but it
was not officially timed, and he ran out of qualifying time.
If this is correct, Prost should have been able to take the two leaders
at almost any time. The impression at trackside certainly was so.
Last point: Silverstone is fast and flat, (I don't know about the
surface?) and as a result I anticipate an almost identical result to
Paul Ricard. Patrese and the Williams team perhaps doing a better job
and Alesi using the superior aerodynamics of the Tyrrel to best effect.
So predictions for Silverstone - here goes:
1 Prost
2 Patrese
3 Senna
4 Mansell
5 Alesi
6 Berger
regards George Frost
|
837.572 | That's resign as in quit; not re-sign as in new contract! | DOOZER::JENKINS | Interactive hard core porn | Wed Jul 11 1990 13:32 | 8 |
|
An article in today's Independent newspaper claims Ferrari want
Mansell to resign!
Richard.
|
837.573 | ? | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Studying fluid dynamics, from a stein | Wed Jul 11 1990 14:11 | 11 |
| > An article in today's Independent newspaper claims Ferrari want
> Mansell to resign!
Hmm, and other rumours are saying Mansells not particularly happy
with Ferrari, and he's been seen talking to his old mate Frank
Williams....
Looks like it's silly season again ! Mind you, when isn't it silly
season.
Gordon
|
837.574 | how fast is faster | BROKE::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Wed Jul 11 1990 17:39 | 22 |
| re .571
Prost one second faster would be quite impressive!
About overtaken the two LH cars, it did seem quite difficult, or he
took his time about it (on the other hand, the man is no Ayrton: given
the situation of the race, why would he be in any hurry to pass).
What I found impressive was the speed with which he closed the gab
between the two LH's. After staying stuck behing Guldgelmin (however
that's supposed to be spelled) for quite a while (15 laps), one would
expect that reeling in the 9s gap between the two cars would take hime
quite a while too. But behold, he was in Capelli's exhaust in just the
time for a commercial - couldn't be more than a few laps. So either
passing was quite a problem (lack of speed on the straight? hardly
probable), or he was just playing it safe.
re .572
So if Mansell leaves, who would be Prost's #2. Senna???
JP
|
837.575 | Ricard musings | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Thu Jul 12 1990 09:03 | 31 |
| Capelli is quoted as saying that the LH set-up was "perfect" (and
Gugelmin (that's how you spell it!) agreed with him. Prost admitted
that Capelli never made it easy and he had to really work at the
overtake.
The McLarens were troubled by tyres (they stayed on Bs - Senna
admitted they may have been overcautious as the McLarens were
certainly harder on their rubber than most others) and balance.
Mansell described his race engine as the worst he has had all
season. There was considerable pressure on him all weekend due to the
presence of Ferrari President Piero Fusaro who wanted a swift decision
on whether Mansell would re-sign (not resign!) for next season. Nigel
was in no mood to oblige, however, and avoided all official
engagements on Friday evening to be with Rosanne and the kids!
As a by the by, remember Jean-Pierre van Rossem, "colourful"
Belgian "entrepreneur" and ex-owner of Onyx? He's currently in jail on
charges of fraud, falsification of business documents and bouncing
cheques!!!
Finally, amusing end to the proceedings came when Mansell, Capelli
and Prost were all hauled down to the medical centre after the race for
random drug tests. The Brit had to wait nearly 2 hours and drink 5
litres of fluid before he could oblige with a urine sample!! "What do
they expect?", he asked. "I've just sweated off 10 pounds in the last
couple of hours!!"
Colin
PS Oh, and by the way, I forgot to watch or record Wogan. Sorry!!
|
837.576 | | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Thu Jul 12 1990 09:10 | 7 |
| >> PS Oh, and by the way, I forgot to watch or record Wogan. Sorry!!
Senna wasn't on, dunno why though :-(
...art
|
837.577 | Book on Senna | ULYSSE::COLLINS | Russ, 828-5371, Valbonne | Thu Jul 12 1990 09:40 | 8 |
| Ayrton Senna - The Hard Edge of Genius
Christopher Hilton
Patrick Stephens Ltd.
_I_ liked it, but then I'm a Senna fan. Lots of info about his time in
karts, F3000, etc.
russ
|
837.579 | Motor racing Supporters | ULYSSE::FROST | | Thu Jul 12 1990 11:41 | 19 |
| I had posted a request some notes back for some help in developing
the specs for a "chair", "elevated support" whatever for those racing
fans who don't pay 150 pounds for seats.
Two replies came back with "buy a step ladder". To that I would simply
say try hefting a step ladder, the ice box, the umbrella etc.. etc..
from the car park to the vantage point.
Perhaps I was a little too tongue-in-cheek to elicit sane responses,
but I repeat that I am a little serious. I will post a note at the end
of this conference (must be about 1600? by now) called "Support the
Lifter".
I shall kick off the requirements and with your help we can apply some
of the F1 input in terms of engineering design, materials, ergonomics
safety to come up with a feasible product design. A further step will
be a prototype.
regards George Frost
|
837.580 | impressions at Paul Ricard | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Thu Jul 12 1990 15:42 | 54 |
| Paul Ricard, Friday July 6th
- Prequalif.
Very impressed by the 2 Larrousse cars and drivers. Bernard quickly set un-
beatable lap time of 1'05"165. Suzuki 2nd best. Tarquini, Dalmas, Grouillard
and Moreno fighting for the remaining places. Saw Moreno spin at Signes (!!!!)
Gachot appeared a couple of times with the Subaru (now that Coloni is gone).
Never saw the PIC-LIFE (broke down during its 1st lap).
Eventually the 2 Larrousse and the 2 AGS made it.
- Untimed practice session
Very strong wind (tail wind in the mistral straight). Suzuki held best lap
time for approx 1hour until the big guys had their cars set properly. Mansell
was very impressive by his perfect clean driving (� la Prost) while others
had a more brutal style (Senna, Berger, ...)
Not impressed by the McLarens. When pushed for performance the cars have
lost their inherent coherence. Brilliant driving by Msrs Senna and Berger
compensates.
The Ferraris were definitely fast but not as fast as they should have been.
Prost complained about a lot of minor points during the whole week-end. I was
expecting lap times below 1'03". They only managed 1'04"4.
- 1st timed practice session
No more tail wind, replaced by nasty gusty sidewind in the mistral straight.
Mansell, Senna and Prost competing for pole position. Nigel set best lap time
(not to be improved Saturday).
Benetton and LH March cars were very fast. New LH guy (after Adrian Newey has
been fired) explained that he has spotted a small aerodynamics bug ...
The V10/V12 powered cars were only marginally faster than the good V8s.
All cars were running with (almost) 0 flaps allowing a very high top speed at
the expense of some unstability in corners. Parameters like tyre pressure and
ride height have become essential.
Alesi was very spectacular (as usual) but I have doubts about the car/driver
combo. More efficient on the track than the Tyrrells were the Benetton and the
LH March cars. Jean explained that the Pirelli tyres did not like at all the
fast Signes right hander followed by the double right hander. The tyres did
show signs of very dangerous internal wear after only one fast lap ...
Bernard (Larrousse-Lambo) constantly ran under 1'06" but could not re-do his
excellent prequalifying time.
Mixed feelings about the Williams.
At the back of the list: Footwork-Arrows, Ligier, AGS, Onyx, BMS Italia
|
837.581 | re several | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Fri Jul 13 1990 09:08 | 16 |
| re .576
Glad I didn't bother to watch it then Art!!
re .578
...and Frank Wiliams doesn't know a first-rate driver when he sees one
(look who he's got in his team right now!!)
re .580
According to Motoring News, Adrian Newey designed a totally new
aerodynamic package for Leyton House before he left - it was run for
the first time at Ricard.
re .581
This is going to be Mansell's weekend - I can feel it in my water!!
Colin
|
837.582 | GPs come but once a year... | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Jul 13 1990 09:47 | 30 |
| Normally I would back Nigel at Silverstone, but this year I'm not
so sure. It will be interesting to see if Ferrari risk the new V12
for the race as well as qualifying. I'm sure Mansell wants them
too, but Prost is probably less convinced. Remembering Mansell
persuading Williams to ditch the active car two years ago he may
well try and swing it.
Either way, Ferrari should be at the top of the list at the end
of qualifying, with Senna there too. If the new Ford is as good
as its supposed to be I reckon Benetton will displace Williams as
the number three team.
Leyton House should go well on another favourable circuit. Given
that the car is very light on tyres (Gugelmin's were only one third
worn when he retired at Ricard) they should run non stop again.
Remembering Gugelmin here the past two years (4th in the rain in
'88 and a BBC ignored charge up the field from the pit lane last
year) they should be around to pick up some points.
I also expect a big effort from Ligier and Dallara to try and get
the elusive point to get out of pre-qual.
So who's going and where are you standing/sitting? We're in the
Woodcote grandstand.
Next year we're finally going to take all three days in. Mind you,
we're going to book a hotel within the next few weeks :-)
A-well-over-excited-Paul
|
837.583 | First get the interest of the driver! | IOSG::MITCHELL | Elaine | Fri Jul 13 1990 09:58 | 17 |
|
re 581
>> re .578
>> ...and Frank Wiliams doesn't know a first-rate driver when he sees one
>> (look who he's got in his team right now!!)
From what Frank Williams says about the selection of drivers, the
teams themselves can't just go and choose what driver they want! - the
drivers are in it for money, and to win - therefor a top driver has got
to believe _he_ can make that car win (if it is not already one of the
top two cars) before they even start talking about money, which is also
a very important factor. The other thing is prestige, who wouldn't want
to at least have a go at driving for Farrari? The other teams are then
left to shuffle round the other drivers, given the money available from
their sponsors.
|
837.584 | | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Fri Jul 13 1990 10:29 | 13 |
| why are teams allowed to use different engines for qualifying & for racing
surely a team could build an engine that gives a lot of power for a short
lifetime (qualifying), whereas they need reliable power for racing?!
I know that in the turbo era higher boost pressures were used for qualifying
than racing.
Do all the teams have a qualifying engine plus a racing engine?
cheers...
...art
|
837.585 | A 160 mph for Mansell? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Jul 13 1990 10:44 | 23 |
| Re -1
In theory the engines are not different. The new one is just a
development of the old ;->
In fact, the new V12 from Ferrari, and the new Ford for Benetton
are very different engines from the ones currently in the races.
Don't ask me for technical details, I don't know a con-rod from
a crankshaft, but they both have more BHP.
There are regulations about chassis. Once you start using a new
car, you cannot go back to the old one. This was highlighted when
Tyrrell announced the 019. They had to bite the bullet and stick
with the new car even if it didn't work.
Things were worse in the turbo era when true qualifying specials
were used pushing out way over 1000bhp. They were often designed
to almost self destruct after a few laps! At least its reasonably
honest now in that the "qualifying" engines will be used for racing
in the near future, its just that they are undeveloped, or that's
what the teams say at least.
Paul
|
837.586 | is it only a matter of money? | MOVIES::BLAKE | Its all downhill from here | Fri Jul 13 1990 10:51 | 10 |
| re: .584
> why are teams allowed to use different engines for qualifying & for racing
> surely a team could build an engine that gives a lot of power for a short
> lifetime (qualifying), whereas they need reliable power for racing?!
I guess for the same reason as they are allowed to use different tyres.
Blistering(!) performance for only a lap or two is exactly what the
"qualifying" tyres give. I wonder how long it will be before we see the
"qualifying engine".
|
837.587 | Who's fastest? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Jul 13 1990 15:24 | 3 |
| Anybody got any times from practice?
Paul
|
837.588 | | SKIWI::EATON | Marketing - the rubber meets the sky | Mon Jul 16 1990 00:22 | 14 |
| Well, Prost does it again. 3 in a row. This man is hot !
Poor MNigel. To lead twice and then pull out late. Why are his cars less
reliable ? Me-thinks that he is harder on the car then Nigel.
Bombshell is his announced retirement. This isn't for real is it - simply
another of his post-race-emotional-outbursts ?
2nd is a good result from Williams on home territory.
3rd for Senna.
Comments please from those who were there.
|
837.589 | Prost wins - Mansell retires (literally!!!) | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Mon Jul 16 1990 10:13 | 127 |
| Alain Prost hoisted himself to the top of the World Championship points
table with another superbly tactical victory in the Britsh G.P., coming home
nearly 40s ahead of Thiery Boutsen's Williams. Ayrton Senna's McLaren was an
eclipsed 3rd (due to others' mechanical misfortunes) while the two Larousse
Lolas sandwiched Piquet's Benetton in the remaining points-scoring positions.
This was an enthraling race, with the lead in doubt right up until lap 54 (of
64), having changed hand about 10 times! Once again, the McLarens were
thoroughly eclipsed.
Prost started from the 3rd row of the grid alongside hotshot Alesi and
held 5th in the early laps, moving past Boutsen on lap 15 (into 3rd as Senna
spun of), Berger on lap 31 and finally Mansell on lap 41 before stroking it
home to his 43rd win in his 161st G.P. He now leads Senna by 2 points!
Teammate Mansell had a really up-and-down weekend. He got off to a fine
start by snatching pole from Senna on Saturday on a day when most of the top
boys could not improve on their Friday times. Mansell hit a scintillating lap
which knocked nearly a second off his time and was 0.6s faster than Ayrton for
his second consecutive pole. At the start, he was outdragged into the first
corner by the Brazilian but chased hard for 9 laps before taking him under
braking for the Bridge Complex on lap 9, running wide and letting the McLaren
through again. It took him four more laps to repeat the manoevre properly, at
which he promptly pulled away impressively.
However, it was around this time that he first started having problems
with the electronic gearchange which began changing down by itself (like from
7th to 4th on the straight!!). The problem was intermittent and Mansell was
able to maintain his lead for a while but a fumbled shift at Becketts allowed
Berger (now in 2nd after Senna's off) to catch up and take the lead by
outdragging the Ferrari down Hanger Straight on lap 21. Mansell dropped back
a little but then, having got the hang of the gearbox problem, attacked again
and retook the lead 7 laps later at the Complex, pulling easily away from the
McLaren again! Prost now began to attack in earnest, passing Berger at the
Complex (the favourite overtaking spot!) and reeling Mansell in, taking the lead
from the ailing sister car on lap 41 at Stowe (for a change) as Mansell was held
up behind Caffi's Arrows.
It was not over yet, though! Again, Mansell came back at Prost and
started reducing the 5s gap again, setting a fastest lap (lap 49, 1m 11.52s) in
the process before Prost steadied the gap. A frustrated and angry Mansell
finally slowed and pulled off at the end of lap 54 with engine trouble, the 3rd
time this year that his equipment has let him down in the final 1/3 of a race.
He threw his gloves and balaclava to the crowd, made a moan about equipment
(referring to "one car" that goes an and wins races while his fails) and then,
at a post-race press conference, announced his retirement from G.P. racing at
the end of the season.
So what of the McLarens? Well, Senna, having been deposed from the lead
by Mansell, went wide on the exit at Club on lap 14 and spun off! He pitted
for new tyres a lap later (in a race when none of the front runners stopped)
and then trailed along outside the top 6 for a long time. He was 8th on lap 33
when the order was Mansell, Prost (-4.16s), Berger (-6.52s), Capelli (-16.73s),
Boutsen (-17.26s), Piquet (-36.79s), Suzuki, Senna, Bernard, Donnelly, Caffi
and Alesi. He eventually hauled past the Lola and the Benetton (as Piquet spun
on entry to the Complex), but picked up his other places as Capelli, Mansell
and Berger all retired in the last 15 laps.
Berger ran strongly in 3rd in the opening laps (which became 2nd when
his teammate threw it all away), took the lead off Mansell on lap 21, lost it
again on lap 28, lost 2nd to Prost on lap 31, lost 3rd to Capelli on lap 44,
went back to 2nd with the retirement of the latter two but went out himself
with just 3 laps to go!
For once, Boutsen got the better of his teammate, starting from 4th on
the grid, holding 5th in the early stages (which became 4th) being passed by
Capelli on the latter's superb run and never really figuring in the battle for
the lead. He was always thereabouts, though (his "style"!) and, like Senna,
picked up places due to others' misfortunes towards the end. Patrese never
figured at all, starting from 7th place on the grid and running 6th until a
long tyre stop on lap 15 dropped him right down the order. he finished his 200th
G.P. in retirement.
The Benettons had a mixed sort of day. Piquet eventually picked up a
couple of points again in a stirring drive right through the field, having
started from the back of the grid (rather than his lowly 6th row slot) having
had some sort of trouble on the warm-up. He scythed through the lower part of
the field into 9th place by lap 11 and 7th six laps later but there progress
halted for a while, it taking a further 14 laps to depose Suzuki from 6th. He
was now some 37s behind Boutsen but dropping away, moving up to 5th on Capelli's
retirement, up to 4th on Mansell's demise, down to 5th again as he spun at the
Complex, allowing Senna through, up to 4th as Berger retired and down to 5th
again as Bernard pipped him on the last lap. Nannini was 10th at the end of
lap 1 but disappeared unnoticed around quarter distance.
Alesi started off well, converting his 6th on the grid to 6th on the
road, although dropping away from the leading bunch, stopping for tyres on lap
12 (his left rear shot away) and never really featuring again. On lap 33 he was
down in 12th place and I think he finished in 8th, a lap down.
The two Lolas went extremely well from 8th and 9th on the grid. They
ended the first lap in 8th and 11th but Suzuki sneaked himself into 5th place
by lap 17 until Capelli came storming through. On lap 20 they were 6th and 8th,
on lap 33 they were 7th and 9th and they ended up 4th and 6th, Suzuki just
snatching 4th off an ailing Piquet on the last lap!
And the hero of France? He had a storming drive, coming through from
a lowly 12th on the grid to 9th at the end of lap 1, 8th on lap 11, 6th on lap
17, past Suzuki on lap 20 (with a fastest lap of 1m 12.6s), past Boutsen on lap
32, past Berger into 3rd on lap 44 (despite a broken exhaust) only to retire
on lap 49. An unhappy end to another memorable race for L.H.
As neither of the Ligiers came within a country mile of scoring a point,
Larina eventually finishing 10th, they will have to get up early in future for
pre-qualifying. The way this works is that the top 13 teams gain automatic
entry into official qualifying while the rest must battle it out for the right
to join them. Before Silverstone, the order of the teams was McLaren, Ferrari,
Williams, Benetton, Tyrrell, Lotus, Arrows, Leyton House, Brabham, Onyx, Minardi
and Lola (these being the points scorers during the last 8 races last year and
the first eight this year). This left Dallara as 13th team due to two 7th places
while Ligier had only two 9th places to their credit. Ligier's failure to better
7th place means that they, together with EuroBrun, Osella, AGS, Coloni and Life
must prequalify starting in Germany.
POSITION RACE CHAMPIONSHIP
1st Prost - Ferrari Prost 41
2nd Boutsen - Williams (-39.09s) Senna 39
3rd Senna - McLaren (-43.08s) Berger 25
4th Bernard - Lola (-1m 15.3s) Piquet 18
5th Piquet - Benetton (-1m 24.0s) Boutsen 17
6th Suzuki - Lola (-1 lap) Mansell } 13
Alesi } 13
7th Caffi - Arrows (-1 lap)
8th Alesi - Tyrrell (-1 lap) Patrese 10
9th Modena - Brabham (-2 laps) Nannini 7
10th Larini - Ligier (-2 laps?) Gugelmin 6
11th Pirro - Dallara Bernard 4
|
837.590 | Garble about friday | STRIKR::LINDLEY | Strewth mate..... | Mon Jul 16 1990 13:17 | 31 |
| Got to Silverstone about 7.30 on friday - some impressions follow.
�12 to get in is far too expensive. There were far more people there
than in previous years (I missed last year, but I reckon there were at
least twice as many people as there were on the friday 2 years ago).
The Lola Lambo's totally dominated prequalifying, very impressive cars,
engine sounds great - tho not as good as the Ferrari's. They didnt
come onto the track until 1/2 way through prequalifying, set their
times then vanished until the last 7 or 8 minutes.
After prequalifying, we moved from opposite the pits to Beckets.
During Free Practise, Alesi shone, getting the line perfect very early,
and looking very smooth. Mansell seemed to be having problems keeping
the car straight under braking until the end of the session - neither
Mclaren looked impressive until the last 1/2 hour or so. The
Williams's looked quickest, tho a bit untidy.
Timed qualifying - Senna had his car well sorted, he was so smooth
through beckets that his provisional pole lap didnt look that fast.
The Lola's shone again, getting 8th and 9th fastest. Leyton House cars
both very disappointing. Mansell was really trying, but wasnt running
much wing, so was a bit wild through the corner. Berger only had one
quick lap, very impressive. Alesi looked very good again.
Left at about 3.00 pm and spent 2 hours in queues to get away from the
circuit. How bad was it on Race day ??
John
|
837.591 | | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Studying fluid dynamics, from a stein | Mon Jul 16 1990 13:35 | 16 |
| Well John, while I too would say twelve squid to get in for the
Friday is a mite expensive, your second sentence says it all.
The attendance for the Friday, I don't know what the exact figures
were, was by all reports, well up on last year and the year before.
So unless people stop paying these prices they'll probably, if not
definitely go up next year. Supply and demand and all that kind
of thing.
As for getting out of the circuit on the race day, past experiences
lead me to wait until a couple of hours after the last scheduled
race before attempting to get out.
Don't know what it was like this year though.
Gordon
|
837.592 | but it was worth it | MOVIES::BLAKE | Its all downhill from here | Mon Jul 16 1990 15:53 | 1 |
| I was lucky. I got out in just over 2� hours yesterday. It was a zoo!!
|
837.593 | 3,3 do I hear 4... yes 4 in a row :-) | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Mon Jul 16 1990 17:27 | 32 |
| YES!!! YES!!!! YES!!!!!
another great Ferrari win. I was rather glad to see all the lead
changes and excitement at the begining and middle of the race rather
than the last 10 or so laps like the last few races. What has happened
to the Mclaren cars (not that I care really):-). Can Ferrari now
take the constructors title as well as Prost the drivers title...
yes, yes, yes!!!!!
OK so Nige has bowed out for next year..who is going to go in and
take over (he has big shoes to fill) any takers out there, they
wouldn't even have to pay me ;-)
Does anyone think Nige willl get
replaced before the end of the season. I don't think Ferrari can
take the constuctors title unless they put someone in the #2 car
who wants and needs to win (or at least place in the top 6) we need
those Ferrari points.
Has anyone taken 4 in a row before for Ferrari (or any team for
that matter)? Can Prost take another first place for 4 in a row!!!
YES! YES!! YES!!!
I get so excited when the red cars do so well :-) :-) :-)
Now we have to wait for two weeks to see if Prost can really do
it. Lets hear the comments on Nigel and what's going to happen
to red car #2
Regards,
FCGT
|
837.594 | Nigel Mansell -- Drives Hard ? | EFGV04::MUDAN_J | The Flagon With The Dragon... | Mon Jul 16 1990 17:56 | 10 |
| I was interested in Nigel Mansell's comments about, "Why one car works
and mine doesn't !".
I have great admiration and sympathy for Nigel. He is a skilled driver
etc. and demonstrated total control in the tyre blow-out incident. But
he does seem to be plagued with all these "problems".
This latest incident, however, is a bit suspect. After all, we all know
what they say about a bad workman...
|
837.595 | | OVAL::KERRELLD | Dave Kerrell @SBP F10.1 | Mon Jul 16 1990 18:09 | 9 |
| > This latest incident, however, is a bit suspect. After all, we all know
> what they say about a bad workman...
If you saw Nigel's interview, he said the gearbox started changing down on
it's own after 10 laps, thus allowing others to overtake him easily. Given
the problem, I think he did well to nurse the car as far as he did and as
well as he did.
Dave.
|
837.596 | there are drivers and then drivers | BROKE::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Mon Jul 16 1990 19:00 | 36 |
| re: Mansell: the car does seem to be trouble prone, but it's hard to
suspect Ferrari would deliberatly skrew up Mansell - nothing like
McHonda for the last seasonl, where a combination of Prost leaving and
Honda support for Brazil would provide a motive.
The positive way of seeing this: Mansell's car seems to be no worse
than the two Ferraris last season - it's Prost who seems to be able to
make his car very reliable...
re: teams and drivers: it's funny to see that McHonda has a top car
when Prost is around, and as soon as he switches, they start loosing
it, with their car coming apart, and Prost's new team seems to get
better and better, maybe on the road to becoming dominant. And with
their chief (and magical) engineer gone to Beneton.
On the last few races, McHonda really seem to be loosing it: they are
now competing not with Ferrari, but with teams like Leyton House!
One possible interpretation: there are drivers that can just drive,
even if very fast. And there are drivers that can contribute heavily to
building a car.
In that case, McHonda really screwed up by preferring Senna to Prost.
And Senna might owe a world championship to the guy that helped build
his car.
Future will tell. Let's see if the current trends continue.
I any case, Senna has been *very* lucky thus far: Monaco was a lucky
one, one more lap and he'd probably found himself third behind Alesi
and Berger - if in the race at all. And Silverstone was another lucky
one: he gained 4 places in the last few laps thanks to 3 retirements
and one spin - and picks up 4 easy points. If he's picking up a lot of
points with 3rd places, will he end up this season loosing points to
the 12/16 rule???
|
837.597 | consecutive wins | AIMTEC::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Mon Jul 16 1990 19:14 | 74 |
| One comment that ESPN made just before the start was that McLaren were
fiddling with the cars in the pits (and on the grid?) while Ferrari
didn't touch theirs. Yes, it looks like McLaren has two very good
drivers, but Ferrari has someone who can set the car up as well.
Here's the info on consecutive wins by drivers, 3 in a row isn't too
rare, but 4 is....
There have been a few, but 5's the record in one season and 6 is the most in a
row ever.
It's also interesting to note most of the consecutive wins have come on the
fast circuits. Looks like once they find a setup that works well on one of the
tracks, it works on the others as well.
1990:
Prost-Ferrari 3 (Mexico, France, England)
1989:
Senna-McLaren 3 (Imola, Monaco, Mexico)
1988:
Senna-McLaren 4 (England, Germany, Hungary, Belgium)
1984/85
Prost-McLaren 3 (Germany, Portugal, Brazil '85)
1980/81
Jones-Williams 3 (Canada, Watkins Glen, Long Beach '81)
1979
Jones-Williams 3 (Germany, Austria, Holland)
1975/76
Lauda-Ferrari 3 (USA, Brazil '76, South Africa '76)
1975
Lauda-Ferrari 3 (Monaco, Belguim, Sweden)
1971
Stewart-Tyrrell 3 (France, England, Germany)
1970
Rindt-Lotus 4 (Holland, France, England, Germany)
1969
Stewart-Matra 3 (Holland, France, England)
1967/68
Clark-Lotus 3 (USA, Mexico, South Africa '68)
1966
Brabham-Brabham 4 (France, England, Holland, Germany)
1965
Clark-Lotus 5 (Belgium, France, England, Holland, Germany)
1963
Clark-Lotus 4 (Belgium, Holland, France, England)
1960
Brabham-Cooper 5 (Holland, Belgium, France, England, Portugal)
1957/58
Moss-Vanwall/Cooper
3 (Pescara, Italy, Argentina '58)
1954
Fangio-Mercedes 3 (Germany, Switzerland, Italy)
1952/53
Ascari-Ferrari 6 (France, England, Germany, Holland, Italy, Argentina '53)
|
837.598 | now for the manufacturers... | AIMTEC::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Mon Jul 16 1990 20:17 | 37 |
| The asterisks indicate the team won the manufacturers championship that
year. Notice how consistent it has been.
1990 Ferrari 3
1989* McLaren-Honda 4,3
1988* McLaren-Honda 11,4
1987* Williams-Honda 6
1986* Williams-Honda 4
1985* McLaren-TAG 3
Williams-Honda 3(+1 in '86)
1984* McLaren-TAG 3,7(+1 in '85)
1983 Brabham-BMW 3
1980* Williams-Ford 3,2(+2 in '81)
1979 Williams-Ford 4
1978* Lotus-Ford 3
1976* Ferrari 3
1975* Ferrari 3,2(+3 in '76)
1971* Tyrrell-Ford 3,2(+1 in '72)
1970* Lotus-Ford 4
1969* Matra-Ford 3
1968* Lotus-Ford 3
1966* Brabham-Repco 4
1965* Lotus-Climax 5
1964* Ferrari 3
1963* Lotus-Climax 4
1961* Ferrari 4
1960* Cooper-Climax 5
1959* Cooper-Climax 3(+1 in '60)
1958* Vanwall 4
1956 Ferrari/Lancia 4 -- No Makes Championship prior to '58 --
1955 Mercedes 4
1954 Mercedes 3
1953 Ferrari 7
1952 Ferrari 8(+7 in '53)
1951 Alfa Romeo 3
Ferrari 3
1950 Alfa Romeo 6(+3 in '51)
|
837.599 | | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Tempus fugit | Tue Jul 17 1990 07:59 | 22 |
|
Re Mansell: I don't think Ferrari will want to replace him as he's
the kind of driver who is won't give less than 100% for the remaining
races, and has said so.
There's not the kind of acrimoney between team and driver here as
there was with Prost and McHonda last year. The Ferrari looks like
the kind of car that requires the smoother driving tactics of Prost
and does not take kindly to the more aggressive style of Mansell.
If, and it's a very sad if, Villeneuve was driving alongside Mansell,
both Ferraris would probably be suffering more retirements. His
style was very similar to that of Mansells.
On saying that though, I can't see how any style of driving should
start to make a semi-automatic gearbox start changing gears by
itself !
I think we are going to see Mansell well up there in the coming races,
as long as the car holds together.
Gordon
|
837.600 | The best since Stirling?? | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Tue Jul 17 1990 08:40 | 37 |
| Nice research, Dave, I enjoyed that!! Now a quick quiz for all you
non-Autosport readers! The Ricard win was Ferrari's 100th.
1. Who won their first?
2. Who won the 50th?
3. Who has won most driving for them?
I don't believe Ferrari will replace Mansell - the guy is too
committed to his racing to sandbag and would love to see the Prancing
Horse trample all over the McHondas, even if it is not his car doing
all the trampling! His relations with Prost are also still very good.
I think his comment was made in the heat of the moment immediately
after an extremely disappointing retirement.
I also agree with remarks made about Prost - I still believe he
earns the epithet "Professor" despite the flack he has received over
the last couple of years at McLaren. I think he does have enormous
talent setting a car up and over the years his style has always been to
get a good race set-up even at the expence of grid position. This, of
course, is in direct contrast to the Mansells, Sennas, and Bergers of
this world who all want to be on pole! Prost also has an incredible
sensitivity with his equipment although, to be fair, I don't think
Mansell is unduly rough on his car.
He will undoubtedly go into the books as the most talented driver
since Stirling Moss NOT to win the World Championship (unless his luck
turns right around, starting in Germany). You can't ask any more of the
guy, can you? Pole position by a country mile, fighting a mechanical
problem to lead the race twice and coming back for a third shot in 2nd
place when the thing expires. He has guts and determination second to
none.
I didn't go this year - the cost and the traffic being the main
reasons - but I'm glad I saw his finest victory ever in '87!
Colin
at McLaren
|
837.601 | Yeh, but! | PLAYER::KENNEDY_C | The same old clich� | Tue Jul 17 1990 09:24 | 11 |
| Re.-1
� since Stirling Moss NOT to win .......
Colin,
Remember Ronnie Peterson, John Watson, even Gilles Villeneuve?
Good, but that good?
BTW, doesn't the old Prof remind anybody of Uncle Niki?
|
837.602 | What the drivers think | OVAL::KERRELLD | Dave Kerrell @SBP F10.1 | Tue Jul 17 1990 12:02 | 9 |
| From CEEFAX without permission;
Prost: I'm not very happy. It's a sad day when a driver like Nigel leaves
Formula 1.
Senna: It will be a big blow if he leaves. Hopefully he will change his
mind quickly and return to Formula 1.
Dave.
|
837.603 | Mansell Mania | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Tue Jul 17 1990 12:11 | 40 |
| 1 day out of the office and 25 new notes later....
Sunday was superb, marred only by the rampant xenophobia of most
of the crowd. Fantastic race. Much as it hurts to say it, thoroughly
deserved win for Prost. I was disappointed for Nigel, but amused
by the crowd, who cheered wildly when Prost overtook the dreaded
McLaren of Berger, but went a bit quiet when he nabbed Nigel. I
think Mansell will be a great loss to the scene, but with a bit
of luck the crowd will give other drivers some credit next year.
I was very sorry for Capelli, it was another great drive. I thought
something was up when his engine note went very flat. It was a shame
Gugelmin wasn't running to take up the challenge. Another goo drive
by Piquet. He might have collected on his bet if he hadn't started
from the back.
From the highlights it looked like the Beeb missed two of the best
incidents where we were at Woodcote - Nannini and Patrese getting
all tangled up and causing Capelli to nearly spin (thats when Nannini
went out - looking very miffed) and Capelli and Alesi banging wheels
again.
The Woodcote grandstands gave a great view all the way from well
back under Bridge round to past the line. #80 next year but with
the new complex they should give a great view. BUT -WHY CANT THEY
FIX THE EXITS!!!! We watched the tin tops and then sat by the car
for an hour before sitting in a queue for two hours. Not good.
Mansell came across very well in his retirement speech. Its a shame,
but understandable, I guess he realised he is not destined to win
the title. For me he was the real champion a few years back at
Williams, when Piquet and Prost nicked it at the end. It makes the
musical chairs very interesting tho' - from his comments after the
race, I'd be quite surprise to see Senna staying. Williams must
be a good bet.
Anyway, we're off to Leyton House in Bicester tomorrow for a factory
visit, so I'll report in on Thursday.
Paul
|
837.604 | If you want REAL xenophobia... | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Tempus fugit | Tue Jul 17 1990 13:19 | 38 |
| If you want to see REAL xenophobia go to and see the Italian GP, there
is absolutely no question as to who the crowd are cheering for ! I went
to Monza, many moons ago, and ended up in what seemed like the middle
of the 'Tifosi'. It was lucky I happened to be supporting Ferrari at
the time or I don't think I would have made it alive !
About the most extraodinary F1 race I went to, in regard to spectator
reaction, was the British GP in 1976. This was when Hunt and Lauda
were the top contenders for the chamopionship at that time. There was
a real fracas after the start going into the first corner causing a
re-start. Hunt and a couple of others, I think one might have been
Regazonni, took a short cut back to the pits and were deemed out
of the race for not completing one complete lap.
This was announced over the tanoy as the others got themselves lined
up on the grid with mechanics checking for damage and patching up where
neccessary for the restart which scheduled for about 20 minutes time.
The crowd reaction was akin to the hooligan element at some football
matches, with empty cans and other handy objects being chucked on the
track. Most of the crowd along the start/finish grandstands were airing
their feelings about this decision very vocally and a rumour then
started going around that a group of spectators were heading towards
the Clerk of the Course office to protest at this decision. The MacLaren
team, of course, where also up in arms and protesting at the attendant
FISA person and the Clerk of the Course, who at this stage must have
thought it would have been better to watch the race at home, rather
than be in position he found himself in.
About ten minutes later it was announced all previously "disqualified"
drivers would be allowed to restart the race because "insert_suitable_
excuse_here.
Now that's what you call xenophobia, or just plain bad behaviour.
Gordon
|
837.605 | A much learn�d Proff. | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Jul 17 1990 17:43 | 28 |
| There is no doubt in my mind that real driving skills are inherited and
then sharpened to a fine edge by a "maitre".
Liken it to the old apprenticeship.
Prost learned a great deal of his "skills" - (not all of them mind you)
from one of the best - Lauda, as was mentioned one or two notes back.
Do you remember the furore when Lauda bowed out of the championship
race in Japan because of the rain?. Seems Prost did much the same in
Melbourne last season.
For me, whatever the debate, that is maturity speaking.
The point I am trying to make here is reflected in the last 10 to 15 laps of
Silverstone.
Who has ever seen Senna "nursing" his car to a finish in that fashion?.
Objectively speaking, and we should all be from our position since we
are far removed from the drivers themselves, until Senna finds himself a
new drive he must follow the "best drive" approach not the "fastest
drive".
Ferrari must offer Mansell's seat to an Italian. The car is beginning
to run well. Of course not any Italian but a good Italian - any
favourites?.
regards George Frost
|
837.606 | | AIMTEC::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Tue Jul 17 1990 18:16 | 4 |
| Nannini and Capelli come to mind, but I'd almost bet on Ferrari going
for a lesser known driver.
Dave
|
837.607 | JJ Lehto? he's been a test driver for Ferrari recently | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Tue Jul 17 1990 18:40 | 0 |
837.608 | Minardi-Ferrari | AIMTEC::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Tue Jul 17 1990 20:47 | 4 |
| Also, don't forget Minardi will have Ferrari engines so they may get
their 'Italian Quota' of drivers with that team.
Dave
|
837.609 | "plesa, don'ta putta me in a Ferrari!!!" | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Wed Jul 18 1990 08:31 | 17 |
| An Italian in a Ferrari is tantamount to Saintdom or death - remember
Alboreto? NO? Ah well!
As no-one has attempted my Ferrari quiz (must all read Autosport, you
blighters!) I will tell you that the first Ferrari G.P. "win" (in a
World Championship race - this was only begun in 1950) was by Froilan
Gonzalez (the "Pampas Bull" from Argentina) in the British G.P. 1951.
The 50th was by Niki Lauda (I said LAUDA!) in the 1974 Spanish G.P. (in
the beautiful 312B3). Lauda has also won the most G.P.s for Ferrari -
15 between '74 (of which above-mentioned was the first) and '77. Next
up was Alberto Ascari (13 victories between '51 and '53).
It would seem to take someone of Lauda's shrewd, analytical and
straightforward approach to do well in the political battlefield at
Maranello - maybe Prost is just that person.
Colin
|
837.610 | 10/1 on Williams | CHEFS::OSBORNEC | It's motorcycling weather again | Wed Jul 18 1990 09:38 | 7 |
|
Re-watched a video of "Toys for the boys" last night. Made about
Williams, just as Honda had left them.
Causes me to feel even more certain that our Nige will be back in a
Williams ere long -- once they have proved themselves to be consistent
winners again.
|
837.611 | ! | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Tempus fugit | Wed Jul 18 1990 09:58 | 6 |
| > Causes me to feel even more certain that our Nige will be back in a
> Williams ere long
Methinks Nigel's wife might have something to say about that !
Gordon
|
837.612 | Real cars come with a roof | UNTADH::PAGE | Master of Desired Performance | Wed Jul 18 1990 14:09 | 1 |
| Hopefully Mansell will sign for a *decent* team now like TWR or Sauber
|
837.613 | Five more? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Jul 18 1990 16:01 | 15 |
| Has anybody any insight into the conditions of Mansell's release fro
Ferrari?
It surely cannot be as simple as a retirement and a comeback?
It will be a loss but I really cannot see Mansell racing again for a
year or two.
What is certain is that Mansell will do his all to assist Prost to the
Drivers, and Ferrari to the Constructors championship. That is not a
negligible boost.
Eight races left and Prost/Ferrari will win with five first places.
Seems to me that that is more than feasible.
regards George Frost
|
837.614 | Comeback, he hasn't gone yet !!!\ | IJSAPL::CAMERON | Tempus fugit | Wed Jul 18 1990 16:25 | 18 |
| > Has anybody any insight into the conditions of Mansell's release fro
> Ferrari?
As far I know his contract was "up" at the end of this season anyway,
and he stated he would be "charging" up to the very end.
> It surely cannot be as simple as a retirement and a comeback?
Mansell hasn't mentioned any comeback, he hasn't even retired yet !
The only people mentioning comebacks are people who want to see him
continue racing, and can't/won't take his retirement seriously.
From his interview after the race he gave absolutely NO hint about
"resting" for a year or so and then driving again.
Gordon
|
837.615 | destined never to win a championship | MOVIES::BLAKE | Its all downhill from here | Wed Jul 18 1990 16:41 | 2 |
| The only thing Mansell will be driving for the next year or two will be
a golf ball!
|
837.616 | The balls break apart at the 15th ;-) | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Wed Jul 18 1990 17:30 | 11 |
| Yes he is a very good golfer, but I understand that the balls start
breaking up by the 15th hole and he has a hard time finishing the
game.....;-)
I am sorry if I hurt any of Nigels fans feelings but I couldn't
help myself. :-)
Long live Ferrari and lets see those 5 wins for both titles.
regards, and no hard feelings
FCGT
|
837.617 | About Piquet and his exploding car! | IOSG::FREER | I've been looking for a girl like you..... | Wed Jul 18 1990 17:38 | 17 |
|
I was surprised that the BEEB didn't pick up on Piquet's exploding
engine cover!!!!!
We were sat down in Stowe Grandstand and with three laps to go as Prost
was approaching Piquet half way to three quarters of the Hanger
straight, suddenly the rear left hand side of Piquets benetton
exploded!!!!!
Prost was left to dodge throught the wreckage and have a very strange
approach angle to Stowe! If he had been just a bit closer, Prost's
race could have ended there and then, and Senna would have won a totally
undeserved second place and similarly Boutsen an undeserved first!
Oh well, it all ended okay, so we need not worry!
Steve
|
837.618 | Lancia and/or Ferrari? | AIMTEC::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Wed Jul 18 1990 19:41 | 9 |
| re .609
I see you are including the Lancia/Ferrari wins in with the Ferrari
wins. If you seperate the 5 Lancia wins, the 50th Ferrari victory was
still by Lauda, but not until the Swedish GP in '75.
Did you realize McLaren is up to 83 victories??
Dave
|
837.619 | some more useless trivia... | AIMTEC::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Wed Jul 18 1990 21:17 | 25 |
| Make 1st Time Winners WDCs from 1st Time Winners
Ferrari 17 6 (Ascari*, Hawthorn*, P. Hill*, Surtees*,
Andretti, Lauda*)
Lotus 9 4 (Clark*, Rindt*, Fittipaldi*, Senna)
Brabham 5 2 (Hulme, Piquet*)
BRM 5 2 (G. Hill*, Stewart)
Tyrrell 4 1 (Scheckter)
Alfa Romeo 3 2 (Farina*, Fangio*)
Cooper 3 1 (Brabham*)
Renault 3 1 (Prost)
Williams 3 1 (Rosberg*)
Benetton 2 -
Lancia 2 -
Ligier 2 -
McLaren 2 -
Hesketh 1 1 (Hunt)
Shadow 1 1 (Jones)
Honda 1 -
March 1 -
Mercedes 1 -
Penske 1 -
Porsche 1 -
Vanwall 1 -
* Won WDC in that make
|
837.620 | So THAT'S what it was all about! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Thu Jul 19 1990 08:38 | 9 |
| re a few back
So THAT was all the debris we saw on the approach to the Complex!!
Even Murray and James didn't know who or what that was all about! A
quick glance just now at MN confirms that the cover had been loose for
some time and eventually tore itself off (which allowed Bernard's
down-on-power Lola to snatch 4th place on the very last lap!).
Colin
|
837.621 | F1 with a smile | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Thu Jul 19 1990 10:37 | 89 |
| Leyton House Factory Visit Report
Well chaps, I can confirm that Leyton House *are* the friendly team
in F1. We and about 20 other fan club members had an excellent tour
of the Bicester factory yesterday, here are some random notes that
weren't under non-disclosure rules :-)
I'll do them in the order of the tour:-
Assembly area
Three cars were being stripped down/rebuilt after Silverstone. The
test team had already left for Hockenheim for the two day FOCA test.
This also meant that Gugelmin couldn't be there for the day.
Each chassis is valued at around #55k. Gugelmin's Ricard wreck was
rebuilt! Undertray's cost #10k each and last for one race. LH use
BP fuel as do Lotus and Lola but the use a unique blend. They also
have a special blend for qualifying which ups the BHP by about 30
to 670ish.
Electronics
The telemetry used is basic in comparison to Honda who beam back
figures to Japan on-line. The Judd is designed to rev to around
12.5/13k. At Silverstone Ivan peaked at 14.3! The Digital CAD system
was off-limits as was the model shop!
Wing Room
This also stored all the expired parts. Suspensions, exhuasts etc
are typically changed every 2 or 3 races to remove the chance of
failure. They are the scrap and some are used for display cars.
The differences between the high and low downforce nose cones was
very apparent close up. For high force tracks like Monaco the nose
is around 8 inches shorter. They also commented that the ride height
adjustment is critical to 1/8 inch - hence the difficulties in set
up this year.
Carbon Fibre Area
A new undertray was being formed ready for the on-site auto-clave.
The carbon is *so* light, and the honeycomb aluminium so small,
its difficult to believe how strong it is.
Drawing Office
Not much going on, awaiting Chris Murphy's arrival.
F3000 Factory
In a separate buliding was the F3000 stuff supporting three European
cars and three Japanese cars. Nothing much was happening as the
team was on its way to Enna. But we did see the 40% wind tunnel
model and have a chat to Andrew Gilbert-Scott who gave a good insight
into driving on Mulsanne at 240 in the dark, rain and fog!
After all this they had laid on dinner at a restaurant called
Rigoletto's in Middleton Stoney, a favourite of Ivan's plus all
the Benetton boys and Boutsen. Over dinner some interesting stuff
came out.
Newey was on a #1m pa contract. He was given an ultimatum to make
the '91 car simple and comfortable, but wanted to go with a semi
auto box and some sort of active ride *plus* similar aerodynamics.
Gugelmin has many bruises and scars from the cramped cockpit.
A new purpose built factory is planned to accomodate F1/F3000 and
F3 for around three years out.
Budget from Mr Akagi is around #15m.
Marlboro chip in $50k to Ivan. They are very hopeful of keeping
both drivers for '91, although obviously Ferrari would be a temptation
for Ivan. There is, however, a great deal of loyalty in the team.
Ivan's contract is up this year, but his close links with Akagi
may well clinch the deal.
Leyton House is basically a leisure/real estate company in Japan.
The name came from the fact that the upmarket bits of Tokyo are
in the east of the city. Akagi looked at a map of London and saw
Leyton in the east end! Akagi is very into British engineering and
Latin drivers!
There was loads more but that's some of the more interesting bits
to non-LH fans. If you think of any specific questions I'll try
and answer them.
Paul
|
837.622 | Forgot the Engine | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Thu Jul 19 1990 10:41 | 9 |
| I forgot -
The Ilmor will run in a slave car around September. The target is
for a new car from day 1 in '91, not for Imola. The deal is 4 year
exclusive, and is worth around #20m. They expect BHP to be on a
par with end of season Renault.
Paul
|
837.623 | more F1 trivia | OASS::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Thu Jul 19 1990 20:34 | 23 |
| Here's a list of the teams who gave the future World Driver Champions their
start in GP racing. The drivers with *'s next to them have won the title
while driving that make as well.
It's interesting to note, while Tyrrell is noted for up and coming drivers,
only one started his career there.
Lotus 5 (G. Hill*, Clark*, Surtees, Fittipaldi*, Andretti*)
Cooper 3 (Hawthorn, Brabham*, Rindt)
Alfa Romeo 2 (Farina*, Fangio*)
Ferrari 2 (Ascari*, P. Hill*)
BRM 2 (Stewart, Lauda)
Brabham 1 (Hulme*)
March 1 (Hunt)
Tyrrell 1 (Scheckter)
Hill 1 (Jones)
Ensign 1 (Piquet)
Theodore 1 (Rosberg)
McLaren 1 (Prost*)
Toleman 1 (Senna)
Disclaimer: I'm pretty sure this is accurate, if it isn't I'll gladly update
it.
|
837.624 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under 'Common Knowledge' | Thu Jul 19 1990 20:56 | 16 |
| Re: -.1 One correction and a couple of queries!
Andretti drove for at least Ferrari and Parnelli before he won the championship
for Lotus - I remember him partnering Chris Amon and Jackie Ickx at various
times. Did he have a drive for Lotus at the start of his distinguished career?
I'm pretty sure that Jones started off in a Hesketh 308B (ex-Hesketh team). It
was dark blue with a red stripe from front to back. The sponsor was Harry
Somebody-or-other (Harry Stiller?).
Did Prost debut for McLaren? I remember that he scored a point for 6th place in
his debut (Brazil '80?); but can't remember the team.
I like this game of reminiscing without books...!
Steve
|
837.625 | this is what I have: | OASS::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Fri Jul 20 1990 15:38 | 11 |
| I have Andretti's first race as the '68 Watkins Glen GP in a third Lotus (along
with Graham Hill and Jo Siffert). He then drove for March, Ferrari and Parnelli
before switching back to Lotus.
Jones: Drove a Hill-Ford in '75 (scored 2 points in Germany), went on to Surtees,
Shadow and Williams. Maybe the Hill entry was an old Hesketh car??
Prost: Yup, it was a McLaren, scored a 6th in his first race (Argentina) and
a 5th in his second (Brazil)
Dave
|
837.626 | Thanks for the info... | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under 'Common Knowledge' | Fri Jul 20 1990 16:54 | 16 |
| RE: -.1
Thanks for the information on Andretti. I remember now, because he qualified
on pole didn't he (it was all a bit before my time :-) ). Thanks for the
clarification on Prost. McLaren did a similar thing with Villeneuve - Grand
Prix debut, but let him sign with another team.
I'm sure about Jones though - he drove Harry Stiller's Hesketh at a couple of
races in 1974. They may have been non-Championship (Race of Champions etc.) -
does your book cover this sort of detail?
In '75 he drove Embassy/Hill-Fords with Tony Brise - as you said. These were
cars designed by a promising designer (was his name Andy Smallman?). What a sad
ending to that team later in the year...
Steve.
|
837.627 | database available
| OASS::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Fri Jul 20 1990 17:47 | 11 |
| Yes, Andretti did have the pole for that race.
Some of info from the mid '70's back only lists the drivers if they finished
in the points, took pole or fastest laps or did something dramatic (like die...)
If you can get the info on the races Jones did in '74 I'd appreciate it.
Do you have DECdecision available? I have a database in Access that you might
find interesting.
Dave
|
837.628 | The King Over the Water? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Jul 23 1990 09:35 | 27 |
| To continue the Andretti theme.....
Last night's coverage of the Toronto CART race had the news that
Al Unser Jnr had re-signed for Galles-Kraco for another 3 years
ending speculation about a move to F1 for now. However, there was
a lot of rumour/speculation about Michael Andretti following Dad
to Europe and going to ---------
FERRARI!!!!!!!
There is actually a lot of logic in this. Obviously there are the
family links, he is part Italian, he is a good draw for F1 in the
US, and he would be cheaper that an established F1 driver.
As for the other candidates, Senna would mean losing Prost, Alesi
is rumoured to have already signed for Williams and is a Camel man
not a Marlboro' man, Capelli is very close to the owners at L/House
and Nannini is supposed to have re-signed for Benetton. Patrese
has been mentioned but I reckon he is too old/hasn't won enough
and Larini, who they have an option on, hasn't really cut it so
far.
I reckon they could do a lot worse than Andretti Jnr. It would also
add to the Phoenix crowd a bit!
Paul
|
837.629 | Hockenheim - Who wins? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Jul 23 1990 11:58 | 44 |
| There are a lot of potentially VERY good F1 drivers running F3 at the
moment. I would hedge my opinion and suggest that what Prost and
Ferrari need (note the order), is a promising novice to F1 picked from
the F3 pack.
If this is the way that they go '91 will be very difficult for Ferrari
- totally dependent on Prost for their points - but well set up for the
seasons that follow.
An Aside for the moment. Why did Mansell swerve to his left at the
start of Silverstone?? and did everyone else notice the total lack of
exchanges (verbal or otherwise) between Prost and Senna, on the Podium?
That must be very ominous.
To continue the confrontation so long off the track has to bring it
into focus on the track.
Who is going to win on Sunday? ( I do wish it was still on the
Nurbergring?). Now there was a circuit! tks for the help Ken - I
thought that they built Hockenheim on the cut down Nurbergring??
Not having been to Hockenheim!!
The biggest problem has to be the driver fatigue in the summer heat.
Does anyone recall the absolutely haggard expression on the face of
Prost after the Brasil GP?. Heat, high G's and total concentration.
The two best at that game are Senna and Prost.
So for me, I am going to basket my bets and say:
Prost (I would like)
Senna
or
Senna
Prost
Followed by Piquet, Alesi, Nakagima, Berger in any order.
regards George Frost
|
837.630 | Senna to strike back | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Jul 23 1990 12:18 | 23 |
| I'll go for Senna or Prost too, with Berger as an outside bet. I
reckon Mansell may well get into defensive driving to protect Prost
for the next few races, before trying to go out with a couple of
wins.
As for his move on Senna, it looked like blatant aggression to me.
If it had been Senna doing it, we'd have had J-MB calling for all
sorts of things to be done to him.
The revived L/House team aren't expecting too much at Hockenheim
as they will get out-dragged on the straights by the V10s and V12s.
They may well be in the top 6 at the end though.
Neck on block time:
1 Senna
2 Prost
3 Mansell
4 Capelli
5 Piquet
6 Gugelmin (He deserves *some* luck!!)
Paul
|
837.631 | Hockenheim Testing | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Jul 23 1990 12:58 | 11 |
| From Vogon this am
Temperatures at Hockenheim were about 42C on the track making testing
difficult. Piquet was fastest in the first session at 1:43.98 using
the Series IV engine. Senna was fastest in the second session at
1:41.37. Prost did a 1:41.54 in the second session and blew up a
new engine after 3 laps.
Anybody know what the pole time was last year?
Paul
|
837.632 | Prost 41 , Mansell 13 | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | | Mon Jul 23 1990 14:32 | 48 |
| Excuse the somewhat belated comments but I've been away.
Leyton House's sudden emergence as a competitive entity from
the ranks of the DNQs seems to have surprised absolutely
everybody. Most surprised of all was probably the LH team
themselves. The car, apart from the now de rigeur push rod
front suspension looks just the same as the 88 model. The
improvement being put down to aerodynamic changes, which
has to be assumed to be a new undertray etc. since it looks
the same otherwise.
The new improved engines are slow in coming. The Ferrari
appearing for practice only (clearly unreliable) and the
Cosworth finally making it to the British in time for the
race where it probably didn't get a fair airing. No sign
of a better Renault.
In a long article published in the press just before the
British GP, Mansell is quoted as being full of optimism
and intent on carrying on to win the world championship etc.
Two days later he's spouting off about retirement, been planning
it for ages apparently!. Really it's fairly easy to work out
what's happening. Mansell wants a drive in a top car but these
aren't forthcoming. McLaren wouyld rather keep Senna, and he's
not going to work with Mansell, neither would Piquet over at
Benetton. Hence it's Williams or stay. Well Williams aren't
totally convinced that they want him back and Ferrari having
seen what the best really looks like don't really want Nige
at all, and certainly aren't going to pay top whack.
All of this could change of course, if Senna say leaves McLaren,
but Mansell isn't prepared to wait. Of course there are other
contenders for 91 ie. Tyrrell but they're not interested in
paying big money.
Personally I find it best not to take seriously anything that
Mansell says so the retirement can't be assumed to be certain
by any means whatsoever. However with a bit of luck he really
might retire.
The racing this year has been the best for a long, long time
and seems to get better race by race. Unfortunately the
retirements of Berger and Mansell in GB has resulted in the
two horse race syndrome again - but there's a long way to go
yet.
-John
|
837.633 | | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Mon Jul 23 1990 14:36 | 9 |
| note .632 reminded me about something I read in the paper on Friday...
Mansell wants to form his own F1 team in association with a pro. golfer
(Faldo I think)
does anyone know anymore about this?
...art
|
837.634 | Now -.2 !! | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under 'Common Knowledge' | Mon Jul 23 1990 14:49 | 28 |
| RE: -.1
I think Mansell's serious about retiring. If you've got a big ego then, once
you've said something in public - even if it was spur of the moment,
then it's very difficult for you to retract the comment. I think that only an
impassioned appeal from a team manager/another top driver would massage his
bruised pride sufficiently to change his mind. And don't forget that he's got a
wife who will have had more than a little say in the matter.
F1 is high pressure at the top; in the last year we've seen Mansell, Senna and
Prost all complaining bitterly about something or other; instead of shutting
up. None of them has won any friends in the process.
If Mansell was a little less hard on his car then I think that he would be in
contact with the leaders. Anyone else get the impression that HE pranged his
(admittedly delicate) gearbox at Silverstone with his first attempt to overtake
Senna? Remember how he overran the corner and had to go down the automatic
gearbox. His intermittent problems seemed to start shortly afterwards.
Make no mistake, Mansell is a great (not just good) driver; however he should
learn to lose with a bit more grace, and not blame ALL of his woes on other
drivers/his equipment.
Cheers
Steve
|
837.635 | Norman? | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under 'Common Knowledge' | Mon Jul 23 1990 14:51 | 7 |
| <<< Note 837.633 by VOGON::ATWAL "Dreams, they complicate my life" >>>
>> Mansell wants to form his own F1 team in association with a pro. golfer
>> (Faldo I think)
Haven't read it; however it would have to be Greg Norman - they do everything
(well, nearly everything) together.
|
837.636 | Team Manager Mansell | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Jul 23 1990 14:52 | 27 |
| Last year Greg Norman was very interested in buying Lotus or Brabham,
fuelled by his friendship with "Our Nige". It all came to nought
tho' and now Mansell is heavily invloved with the Mansell-Madgewick
F3000 team running in both the European and UK championships. They've
been doing rather well, with Pedro Chaves winning in the UK and
Morbidelli (Ferrari's test driver) running at the top and winning
yesterday's round at Enna-Pergusa.
I reckon the British folk hero has done it for real, and although
I won't miss the over the top adulation at Silverstone and the
whinging, I will miss the 110% committment and effort. I still maintain
that he was a moral world champion, and that the F1 scene will be
poorer without him. I would also have liked to have seen how the
Williams goes with a real No 1 driver.
Still, there's a good batch of British youngsters coming along,
McNish, Hill, Irvine, Donnelly, Herbert, Coulthard, Gilbert-Scott
etc, so we should be challenging the Italians soon.
It will be interesting to see who the Silverstone crowd cheer for
next year.
As for Mansell's reasons, I reckon they are genuine, and that he
realised that the title was not destined for him. I stand to be
corrected!
Paul
|
837.637 | Eenie Meenie Motormini | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Jul 23 1990 18:17 | 4 |
| Sorry, I mixed up my Morbidelli with my Motormini. Mansell's driver
is the later, and had run at the front but not won.
Paul
|
837.638 | Happy days are here again | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | | Tue Jul 24 1990 13:28 | 25 |
| Mansell has a long and glorious history of DNFs (Did Not Finish)
mainly on account of busting the cars, but sometimes driver error.
The great classic was at Monaco when he demolished his Lotus when
in the lead by going unnecessarily fast. He'd done extremely well
to get into the lead but threw it all away with a vengeance with
some classic barrier bashing. Worst of all though was the way in
which he later blamed the white lines painted on the road for the
incident, made me cringe to listen to him. I'm not sure how the
car troubles started at Silverstone but it was pretty obvious that
the car's final demise was due to bouncing it violently over the
curbs on the last corner it came through. He did the same thing
last year fending off a Benetton in a continental race. The tele
caught it beautifully.
I'd like to see Brundle back in F1 with a decent car. He's out
again this year since after several years of trying with poor
machinery he isn't interested unless the equipment's good. Maybe
he'll be back, maybe in a Tyrrell, who knows. After all when he
raced Senna in F3, Senna only just scraped the title and it could
easily have gone the other way.
Winner for Germany?. There are so many possibilities. I wouldn't
like to speculate, should be great race though.
-John (Mansell's greatest non-fan)
|
837.639 | Ferrari wins another one | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Tue Jul 24 1990 15:29 | 26 |
| Well maybe now that the pressure is off of Mansell to win he may
just win one. Perhaps he has been trying toooooo hard.
I wonder if he will help Prost win the championship, maybe he can
stay in second behind Prost and make it really difficult for anybody
to pass ;-)
OK time for my predictions, BTW since I have never seen any races
at the German course this is really a guess....
1st Prost
2nd Cappelli
3rd Mansell
4th Berger
5th Piquet
6th Nannini
BTW what is the German course like... fast, slow, lots of turns
etc.
As an aside would it be possible to put rough drawings of all the
race tracks in this note as references for future discussions, you
no by numbering the corners and pit areas etc. Just a thought...
Regards,
FCGT
Vivre le Ferrari
|
837.640 | | LISVAX::BRITO | | Tue Jul 24 1990 15:37 | 35 |
| Piquet comments on Mansell retirement were interesting....
He said something like:
"Mansell is a cry-baby... Saying that he will retire... By now he
must having everything sorted out with Williams for the next season!..."
(my translation may not be 100% accurate)
Re : (a few back)
It was said here that Senna has been very lucky. I think he has been
anything but lucky. He has been having punctures on his tires, he had that
incident with Nakajima and the Mchonda seems to be going through some
technical difficulties. And all this when he has a much more tempered way of
driving.
People tend to forget that by Ferrari things could only improve. It was about
time for them to do that. Yes, Prost can perhaps have made a few changes in the
team. But to say that the Mchondas are having problems because Prost left the
team and they can no longer have their cars tuned is, in my honest opinion, to
exaggerate.
I think that Mclaren will correct these technical problems soon enough to give
Senna/Berger the means to resist Prost/Mansell. And please note that
Mansell did quit in Silverstone. Doesn't that mean that Ferrari isn't that
reliable too?!
Maybe all these events will make the Mclaren team and Honda use the new weapon
called Honda V12 before what was expected... and make us Senna fans
happy again ;-).
Regards,
RUI
|
837.641 | Still like normal? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Jul 24 1990 16:41 | 44 |
| re .640
A couple of rather odd statements that need comment.
It is true that McLaren are not having as good a season as the last
three. You lose a driver of Prost's capabilities and it is difficult to
pick up where you took off. Perhaps it is just coincidence that McLaren
are not doing so well this year (as last)??
Ferrari were were only keeping their heads above water (competitively)
for the last two season. So much so that a new chassis, engine, team
etc., were on the way. They could easily have had a really dismal
record this season.
Prost joins, choses and drives the old chassis etc., and Ferrari start to
win??
Perhaps it is just a coincidence???
Senna makes public noises to move to Ferrari after, as usual, someone
else?? had made it easy (for .640 benefit).
Perhaps it is just a coincidence???.
To get things straight in my mind. F1 cars are only reliable, relative
to their environment.
No the Ferrari is not reliable.... but it is much more reliable now
than is was before Prost joined.
Perhaps it is just a coincidence???
I like Senna's driving skill not his temperament. I like Prost's
driving and engineering skills, not his politics.
I enjoy them both racing F1. The are currently, in my mind, the best
and probably will be classed in the future as two of the best ever.
Matter of interest. How does Senna or Prost compare to Lauda? I have
picked him because he is the most recent "one of the best".
Any opinion?.
regards George Frost
|
837.642 | more on coincidences | BROKE::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Tue Jul 24 1990 18:13 | 39 |
| re last two
BTW, notice that .640 and .641 are good numbers to discuss Ferrari :-)
I still think Senna has been lucky. Monaco and Silverstone were real
jewels for him. Admintingly, a puncture is poor luck. Nakajima I would
not call poor luck: if I remember well, Senna had a sizeable advantage
over his immediate follower, Prost. He knows Nak is hard to pass (they
have been through this before, plus a couple near misses), and the
circuit has several good passing places. Why did he *need* to pass in
that dreadful corner, why not wait for a straight where the power will
speak and there is enough space for error? Wanted to save a second or
two, and lost the race. That, in my opinion, is poor racing.
re: Prost's abilities to set up a car: It's just a rather strong
coincidecne that when Prost drives for McLaren, the cars is
untouchable, but Ferrari is just surviving. Then he switches, and the
McLaren immediately runs into problems, while the Ferrari struggles for
a few races, and then seems to come on top. It might still be a
coincidence, but it's an even bigger one when the Ferrari improvement
is done with the old equipment - the same as last year's poor season's.
From the coverage of Silverstone, I believe it was mentioned that the
Ferraris just came in and did close to no adjustments, and the McLarens
spend their time fidling with everything. Seems like the former had
their act together a little better. How about Prost's strategy of using
his test time to test (and improve) his machine, at the admited
detriment of his grid position, instead of only playing for the pole,
and ending up on Sonday with a poor car?
Senna is definitely a good driver. He still has to prove that he can be
a No 1 driver - not only the faster one, but also the experienced one
that helps improve the team.
Now for our sake, I'd love to see McHonda get a little better, and have
a real good fight for the title. In any case, this is so much more
intersting to watch than last year - more driving, less bitching...
JP
|
837.643 | Point Picker Senna | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Wed Jul 25 1990 11:01 | 56 |
| Re Senna
I reckon we are seeing a much more mature Senna this season. If
you look at individual races -
Phoenix - reacted well to being out-dragged by Alesi and just drove
away from the rest
Brazil - under enormous local pressure, lead comfortably, taken
out by Naka (who admits it was his fault) but comes back to finish
in the points. As for it being a rash move - remember Prost was
picking up a second or so a lap on him.
San Marino - retired early through no fault of his
Monaco - lead from flag to flag
Canada - brilliant win in the wet
Mexico - mutual error of judgement with Dennis on tyres, otherwise
would probably have picked up points for third/fourth after again
leading for most of the race
France - Lead before tyre stops, ran within limits to pick up third
GB - Made a mistake after leading, and ran from midfield again to
pick up third again.
That indicates to me he is not going b*lls out to win every race
this year, his comment at Ricard about the points for third being
very valuable at the end of the season was quite revealing.
As to the McLaren and its set up, the guys at Leyton House say the
McLaren is a very easy car to set up, unlike theirs, but that the
chassis is now too old to be made up for by the Honda BHP advantage.
Prost has made a very shrewd move in leaving at this point. Also
the Ferrari is quite different from last year's car, and he is
benefitting from Mansell and Berger's efforts last year.
Senna has proved many times he can set up a car just as well as
Prost, last season being an excellent example. Given their relationship
last year, I doubt they exchanged much set up information.
Finally............
On last nights coverage of the WSPC from Dijon they interviewed
the Merc team boss, who said -
" The 3.5L engine we will use in the C-200 car next year for the
new regs, will be the same as we will be using in Formula One."
You heard it here first folks - its official - the Silver Arrows
are back.
Paul
|
837.644 | Not the same? more bravo! | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Jul 25 1990 11:16 | 17 |
| Agreed with most of .643, particularly aboute Senna's volte face into
really competitive driving, to win at the end of the season not the
race.
Also about Prost's very shrewd move to Ferrari - nobody has ever
doubted him in the dept.
However Ferrari were trying to fit their available drivers into their
cars last season - literally. A car is not built for a driver, the
driver sets it up.
If the Ferrari of this season is not the same car as last season, how
did Berger and Mansell help out? Agreed there is a transfer of
technology, but not to that extent.
regards George Frost
|
837.645 | Berger & Mansell Auto Wreckers Inc | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Wed Jul 25 1990 11:44 | 13 |
| Re -1
Mansell and Berger did most of the reliability testing last year,
which has given Prost the 4 on the trot run this year. They also
got the gearbox working effectively, and prompted the changes to
the programming on downshifts.
Mansell is still too hard on the car, as in his Williams days, hence
the retirements, but Prost's softyly softly style is benefitting
from the basic gltiches being sorted last season by two of the hardest
drivers in F1!
Paul
|
837.646 | | MARVIN::RUSLING | Hastings Upper Layers | Wed Jul 25 1990 11:52 | 17 |
|
I believe that Prost is one of those race drivers that is superb at
getting his car set up correctly. After driving it he, apparently,
not only knows what's wrong with it but can suggest ways of putting it
right. He's obviously a skilled tactition, driving for the championship
rather than for each race. This is where I find him somewhat boring,
Mansell, Aleisi, Berger and Senna are all more interesting to watch.
Some of the finest moments of this year's Grand Prix have occured
when one of these fellows is charging through the field.
As for the bitching, I thought that that was part of the circus, who's
going to ride with whom next year, who's sponsering who, who gets
what engines. However, Mansells childish antics are not entertaining
in the least, and somewhat tarnish his reputation.
Dave
|
837.647 | don't break to improve | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Jul 25 1990 12:25 | 18 |
| Paul your statement in .645 says it all.
A hard driver is NOT going to improve either the reliability of a car
or its competitivity.
Reliability is inherent in the basic design, but mishandling will always
break the most reliable anything! Identify the weaknesses of the
design, set up the car to minimise the weaknesses and you are more reliable
and more competitive. That is what the likes of Stewart, Lauda and
Prost do very well/
The analogy here is the aviation test pilot. Mansell could never have
been a test pilot!
Quite apart from the fact that always breaking a car is very depressing
for the Ecurie and will not earn you any medals from them.
regards George F
|
837.648 | New Teams mainly | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | | Wed Jul 25 1990 14:28 | 27 |
| Re. a couple back.
Mansell's reputation is so tarnished that a gallon of brasso wouldn't
even put a glimmer on it as far as I'm concerned.
Mercedes testing their F1 engine in the WSPC, yes it has been rumoured.
The same I think is true of Peugeot, with their 905.
F1 is going to be awash with teams soon it seems, with these two,
the Jordan team (next season) and probably Reynard too.
Usually new teams do very little ie. LIFE(the car with the dead
engine). But all of these have to be taken seriously. Jordan is
the leading entrant in single seaters in the UK, and always seems
to get his off the shelf F3,F3000 cars go faster than anyone elses.
Also he's got a contract for the Ford (Cosworth) as used by Benetton
though it seems he'll not actually get the very latest versions.
Also there are a lot of drivers amenable to Jordan since he put
them on the road to success ie Senna, Alesi, Palmer plus many others.
Not to be underestimated.
Similarly Reynard (rumoured entering in 92) are probably the best
constructors in the minor formulae.
All adds to the fun.
-John
|
837.649 | F1 isn't meant to be endurance racing | WOTVAX::MEAKINS | Clive Meakins | Wed Jul 25 1990 21:58 | 13 |
| All this stuff about Mansell being hard on his car, I thought racing
cars were for racing....
Mansell has the occaisional "off" as we've spectacularly seen this
year, but he doesn't ride over curbs in the way that some other drivers
do (eg Berger). A racing car may not be able to take bouncing over
curbs for 120 minutes, but it really should be able to take being
driven in a determined manner.
Don't forget also that Mansell has been known to nurse sick cars to the
finish, the difference between Mansell and Prost being that Prost could
probably win with a sick car, but Mansell might just beat Prost with a
healthy car.
|
837.650 | ergo sum | ULYSSE::FROST | | Thu Jul 26 1990 09:56 | 1 |
| well said that man!
|
837.651 | 2 frenchman + 2 Ferraris = unbeatable | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Thu Jul 26 1990 15:49 | 7 |
| Sooo, it looks like Ferrari's # 2 driver may have already been picked
for the next season.
Any comments on his ability?
regards,
FCGT
|
837.652 | New McHonda again ! | YIPPEE::FILHOL | | Mon Jul 30 1990 09:54 | 7 |
| Results:
1. SENNA
2. NANNINI
3. BERGER
4. PROST
5. BOUTSEN
6. CAPELLI
|
837.653 | McHondas were great! | LISVAX::BRITO | | Mon Jul 30 1990 10:21 | 15 |
| Great race !!
Senna on top again. Mclaren has returned to their best...
No more coincidences. An incredible pole and a win. Senna even waited
that Nanini had his tires worn out to pass him with all safety.
The change of tires for Senna was really fast. Ferrari broke again,
(Mansell's) but even if it didn't I doubt they would managed to
get near Mclaren.
Regards,
RUI
PS: Who did the fastest lap yesterday, anybody know??
|
837.654 | near enough to .629 | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Jul 30 1990 10:39 | 14 |
| A good race, what about the first 10 or so laps with the two McLarens
and the two Ferrari's all going past the timer within 1 sec!
An incredible pit stop by both Senna and Berger (6.? sec resp.).
Ferrari on the other hand managed only about 12 secs for Prost. That
seemed to break the camels back and from that point on Ferrari did not
matter.
A very good 2nd place for Benneton and Piquet.
Most interesting seeing Benneton and Williams mixed in there amongst
the top two.
regards George Frost
|
837.655 | Wrong driver, right team | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Jul 30 1990 10:52 | 1 |
| Read Nannini not Piquet.
|
837.656 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | File Under 'Common Knowledge' | Mon Jul 30 1990 11:19 | 24 |
| Very good drive by Senna. Anyone notice how relaxed he was - no longer the hard
charger. Maybe he is trying to copy Prost's style? He was so smooth through the
corners - much better than anyone else, and didn't feel that he had to burn
past Nannini when he caught him up - he waited his turn.
Both McLaren drviers complained of down on power engines - which won't please
Honda (bad publicity - should keep it private IMO).
RE: a few back. Boutsen got fastest lap - after his tyre change. It was
a new lap record. Previously it was held by Mansell in the '87 Williams.
So:
'90 Williams = 650 bhp+
'87 Williams = 920 bhp+
Shows the phenomenal improvements being made in the chassis department.
Finally a message for RUI! Much as I hate to say it, Mansell's car did not
break - he broke it when he scrapped the bottom of the car on a long curb.
Cheers
Steve
|
837.657 | Yes, it was a mistake from Mansell! | LISVAX::BRITO | | Mon Jul 30 1990 12:10 | 8 |
| .656�Finally a message for RUI! Much as I hate to say it, Mansell's car did not
.656�break - he broke it when he scrapped the bottom of the car on a long curb.
Yes, you're right! Ferraris are too fragile for Mansell... ;-))
Have you noticed the way the Ferrari Box closed the door immediatly
after Mansell got in?! Not very polite with media...
RUI
|
837.658 | 5th and 6th | OASS::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Mon Jul 30 1990 16:12 | 3 |
| It was Patrese and Boutsen in 5th and 6th, not Boutsen and Capelli.
Dave
|
837.659 | Are we sure it was really Senna in that car ;-) | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Mon Jul 30 1990 17:01 | 14 |
| Did anybody check to see if it was really Senna in the winning Mclaren,
If I didn't know better I would have sworn it was Prost driving
in his old Mclaren car ;-) perhaps Senna has finally realized
(after being soundly beaten three in a row by Prost) that a smooth
and tactical race is the only way to go. It's about time he matured
into a great driver. As for Ferrari.... what happened in the pits,
and how long was he in there, it seemed like forever :-(
OK lets get on with the next race... Oh before I go... hats off
to Nannin Great race and way to go Benetton.
P.S. I guess it's time to get my groundhog out of retirement.
Regards,
FCGT
|
837.660 | Hungary was a great race last year . . . | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Tue Jul 31 1990 00:19 | 11 |
| ESPN reported yesterday that Alesi had held a press conference to
announce that he had nothing to announce -- he has NOT signed with
anyone for next year. (Maybe he'll retire?)
IMHO, it would be better for F1 if Alesi stays with Tyrrell or goes to
Williams, but (assuming Senna AND Berger are back) his best chance for
victory is Ferrari. And who can teach him more than Prost? Finally,
with Prost retiring after next season, Alesi would step in as #1. But
Michael Andretti would do just fine!
Don
|
837.661 | | LASHAM::LINCOLN_J | | Tue Jul 31 1990 13:47 | 40 |
| Some thoughts on Germany etc.
* It's still close at the top, no runaway victories even when the
Ferraris are off form.
* Senna immaculate, and Nannini too. Nannini needed a good drive
since his place seems in the team seems to be in doubt. He wrote
off a chassis in practice, which didn't please them.
* In the old McLaren days an 8 second delay in the pits would soon
have been blown away but nowadays every car that has to be passed
is a major time waster. That delay cost Prost dearly.
* The BBC commentary team were way off form, seemingly getting
everything wrong. Whilst we expect this from Murray, James was also
misfiring. Just as it was becoming clear that Mansell was finding
it difficult to stay with Prost, Hunt started saying how he was
holding back etc. Just as he got to the end of the spiel M. goes
off completely and niether of them even noticed!. Then after Nannini
had driven 20 laps as if he was in a qualifying session in order
to keep the lead and finally had to give way, Hunt criticises him
for not trying .- youch.
Loads of rumours/news/speculation in the press -
* McLaren were said to have 'new' engines for this race, OR was
it just new fuel. There's been a lot of talk about fuel lately in
the pit lane. Although notionally 5 star petrol, additives are allowed
and the stuff that's going into some cars no longer gives the
impression of being petrol at all. Could brew up into a row.
* It's now said that Alesi actually signed for Williams way back
in March - but that influenced by promises of much money etc. is
still 'negotiating' with Ferrari who seem to be prepared to offer
better terms. The middlemen are having a ball over this one. It
wouldn't be the first time existing contracts have been ignored.
Perhaps this is why he held this press conference, also it must
shed light on the Mansell situation.
-John
|
837.662 | Where they used to go,or where they want to go ? | YIPPEE::FILHOL | | Tue Jul 31 1990 14:56 | 10 |
| The french comments during the GP had suprised me.
As Alesi was driving back to the pits, he missed it and stop at the
pit next to the Tyrrel one !!!
And one said that this happent at the beginning of the season for
Prost (driving for Ferrari); he once stopped at the McHonda'pits !!
And it happent the same for Berger stopping at the Ferrari' pit instead
of the McHonda !!!
Did you hear about that before ?
Bruno.
|
837.663 | A little history question | OASS::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Tue Jul 31 1990 15:21 | 3 |
| What was the model designation of the 1958 Cooper-Climax, T43 or T45?
Dave
|
837.664 | Odds On favourite - in France | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Jul 31 1990 16:22 | 8 |
| TF1 one of the French national television channels ran an analysis
last night, of the rest of the F1 season - form, tracks, finance etc.
End result - Alain Prost came out as 3 to 2 on favourite to take the
championship this year.
regards George Frost
|
837.665 | | SKIWI::EATON | Marketing - the rubber meets the sky | Wed Aug 01 1990 05:10 | 4 |
| Oh, and Brazilian national TV did a similar analysis, and rated Senna a 10
to 2 favourite....
Just kidding.
|
837.666 | Hockenheim comments | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Aug 01 1990 14:19 | 18 |
| At the end of the race, after the top runners had parked their cars
at the exit of the stadium (low on fuel probably) the TF1 reporter
intercepted the drivers.
Nannini : well, a good race, coudn't stay ahead, yes very tired,
....
Prost : "right after the start the engine hit the ignition cut-off
mark (how much ?, for what reason ?) and then I could not pull more
than 13200-13400 rpm. I did everything to bring the car home, could
not do any better (45secs behind Senna)".
Interesting comment: it's actually the 1st time in the last few
years that I hear a driver give real figures and real reason for
bad performance. Now is this the truth ? Prost sounded honest.
Now we know that Ferrari engines rev over 13000rpm.
|
837.667 | les t�tes et les jambes | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Aug 01 1990 16:41 | 16 |
| reply to .665
You did notice that I said the one of the FRENCH...... I watch it
because I live here.
L'Equipe the FRENCH sporting newspaper has a rather nice litte cartoon
in it dated 30th. July.
What is the ideal F1 car?
One with the front (head) of Prost and the back (legs)
of Senna.
regards George Frost
|
837.668 | It's the sound mum... | SKIWI::EATON | Marketing - the rubber meets the sky | Thu Aug 02 1990 04:37 | 1 |
| What I wouldn't do to be in a car with a V12 doing over 13,000 rpm...
|
837.669 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | | Thu Aug 02 1990 10:14 | 4 |
| The latest Cosworth V8 revs to 13,000. I'd expect the V12s to be
well above that.
-John
|
837.670 | Next year's here today | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Aug 03 1990 11:59 | 40 |
| Autosport bits -
Next year's provisional calendar is printed. Same 16 races, but
no venue listed for France (Ricard vs Magny Cours) and Spain (Jerez
vs Montelimo (sp?) nr Barcelona) The main changes appear to be around
dates with the 7 week gap after Brazil gone to be replaced by
US-3wks-Brazil-3wks-San Marino-3wks-Monaco (I think) The end of
the season is also closed up a bit.
Every driver seems to be linked with every other team apart from
their current one! The only exception being the Benetton boys who
look to be staying put. Moreno seems to be in demand with EJR and
Minardi interested. Brundle is also looking for a ride but doesn't
want to pre-qualify which would rule out EJR.
Le Prof is now saying he *won't* definately retire from F1 at the
end of '91 - he was misquoted!
I watched the end of Hockenheim on ESPN in Boston while I was at
DECworld and they had a bit from the pits saying that many teams
now use nitrogen in their tyres since it is more stable at high
temperatures than air - anybody else heard this?
Another good race last week, it was excellent to see the three podium
men enjoying each other's company so much - Team Perfect have obviously
lifted the smiling ban! I hope all the Senna boo-ers from Silverstone
were watching.
Apparently Mansell's undertray was hardly damaged and Nichols reckoned
they could have chaged the nose and got hin out pretty quickly if
he hadn't have taken his belts off and driven into the garage. The
only complication was Prost arriving for a tyre change around the
same time.
Prediction for Hungaroring -
Benetton and Leyton House with their superior chassis to do well
along with Ferrari. McHonda to struggle on a non-power circuit.
Paul
|
837.671 | Hungary looms up | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | John, Hampshire House, Basingstoke | Mon Aug 06 1990 14:11 | 13 |
| I would imagine that Prost's plans may still be what was suggested some time
ago ie. to do two years with Ferrari looking to win world championships and
then go to the Peugeot team to help develop the all french car.
Hungary must look good for Benetton, but also McLaren and Ferrari. Williams
have looked very lack lustre this year, with far too many retirements and
other mishaps, clearly Benetton have now edged past them in the hierachy,
not by far though. All six drivers in the leading cars have strong reasons
for wanting to win this one, and all must have a good chance. I wouldn't like
to say who'll get it but it should be very close and entertaining!. Alesi
may feature in the early stages too.
-John
|
837.672 | Ferarri again, perhaps? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Aug 07 1990 10:11 | 19 |
| This one looks to be a humdinger, plenty of pressure, cars coming up to
scratch, less heat, a good circuit and everyone counting points.
I agrre with the last noter in one respect - Alesi. He did very well
earlier for his second place and I think he has a very good chance to
be in with the top three.
One unknown is the Ferarri 12cyl. Does anyone know yet if they will be
running it?
With that aside, my feelings are that the start of the race will be a
repeat of the German GP with The Tyrell fourth or fifth.
The McLarens should not breakaway this time and for me a final lap will
be Prost, Senna and Alesi going all out to win, all within 1 or 2 secs
of each other.
Mansell holding off Berger - not deliberately of course!
regards George Frost
|
837.673 | more on Hockenheim | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Aug 07 1990 18:38 | 26 |
| Hockenheim debriefing with Prost:
- car was so fast in the straights that the engine was constantly
running at max rev in 7th gear.
- Prost was anticipating to have this problem only at the end of
the race. He did not have any problem Sunday morning
- Ferrari could not solve the problem in due time otherwise (says
Prost) they would have easily dealt with the McLarens.
- The Ferrari chassis is definitely superior to the McLaren. Prost
indicated that they could almost tune the car WITHOUT flaps
- during practice (with the new special engine) they pulled 14000rpm
(of course one can wonder: is he telling the truth ?). During the
race he was concerned with reliability.
- Nigel's accident at Ostkurve: unsure about the cause. Is it Nigel's
mistake who sent him wide and he destroyed the flat bottom and some
of the external devices, or it it the opposite ie the flat bottom
broke, he lost some grip and lost it ... ????
Brakes : it was obvious that the McLarens had very good brakes.
The Benettons of both Nannini and Piquet could not keep with the
McLarens in the braking areas. Another interesting evidence was
shown by the incar camera when Warwick was overtaken by Senna. In
straight line no problem, equal acceleration and top speed. But
Derek had to jump on the center pedal much earlier than Ayrton. That'
one way to win races .....
|
837.674 | can someone confirm this ? | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Aug 08 1990 17:23 | 10 |
| Just read that Camel (RJ Reynolds) is changing its communications
plans in 1991.
On the 21M$ allocated for F1 next year, 16M$ will go to Benetton,
some will go to Tyrrell and to Larrousse.
Nothing planned for Lotus ! No comment from Lotus other than they
may have to quit F1.
Very sad indeed !
|
837.675 | Lambo F1 ? | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Aug 08 1990 17:24 | 19 |
| Conflicting (or perhaps complementary) news about Lamborghini
Engineering and on the future of the F1 car developped for the
Mexican GLAS (Gonzales LUNA)
1. Chrysler have decided they will NOT compete in F1. Lamborghini
shall not enter F1.
2. 3 organisations are bidding for the Lambo developped GLAS car
- Signore Patrucco (again !)
- Peter Monteverdi
- Fondmetal (owner of Osella)
Patrucco will probably get the GLAS, without the engine and gearbox,
and will certainly ask Lamborghini to supply those components. Gerard
Larrousse is reported to dislike this idea ...
Although Mauro Forghieri would very much like Lamborghini engineering
to enter F1, he will probably have to wait a few more years
|
837.676 | Over the rainbow.....lies Woking! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Thu Aug 09 1990 09:44 | 48 |
|
Pre Hungaroring bits
Monza testing - Ferrari ran over two race distances with the new V12,
driven by Morbidelli, it should therefore be a reasonable gamble for
Sunday.
Also at Monza, McLaren turned up with a Tyrrell-alike front end! The
Autosport picture shows a high nose and very deep side plates, not the
anhedral wing of the Tyrrell.
Benetton in secret tests with Roberto Moreno, thought to be running
Barnard's B191 with a semi-auto box. McLaren also thought to be going
in this direction and have recruited Gordon Kimball from Ferrari who
did most of theirs.
Autosport also has a pic of the Glas at Imola - very nice looking car,
very smooth. It ran for 71 laps at below current F1 qualifying pace.
The piece confirms Patrucco's interest.
Brabham are currently locked out of their factory as they haven't paid
Bernie the cash for the lease. They are confident they will get round
this little glitch in time to put the cars back after Hungary!
Italian press reports of an F1 race round the *streets* of indianapolis
in 1992!!!
Silly or Not?
Dismissed by Autopsort but featured heavily in today's Guardian by Alan
Henry is the following -
Senna is still at loggerheads with Smiling Ron on the subject of a one
year deal (to allow him to go to Ferrari when Prost retires to run
Peugeot and probably replace JMB!) This is making his move to Williams
more likely. The free seat at Team Perfect would then be offered to
Mansell who would accept with open arms as McLaren are the only team
capable of giving him the title that he hasn't tried. If Senna doesn't
go to Williams, Alesi will go instead, contract permitting.
April 1st or a world exclusive????
Paul
ps - Patrick --
Does the stuff on RJRs sponsorship mention Williams, I thought
they had a big deal with Camel?
|
837.678 | Clark, Hill, Rindt, Fittipaldi, Andretti, who next? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Thu Aug 09 1990 10:06 | 17 |
| The Lotus GP team is totally seperate from the production cars. GM owns
Lotus cars, but not Team Lotus.
Hopefully, if they lose Camel next year, they will revert to a more
tasteful colour scheme which should improve their fortunes no-end. They
actually haven't been doing to badly this year, regularly qualifying in
the 10-15 range and finishing 7/8/9 etc. In fact, remarkably similar to
Derek Warwick's last team Arrows when he was with them!
Like so many mid-field runners, they need that one break to boost the
preformance and confidence, eg Tyrrell's new nose and Leyton House's
new undertray.
I almost hope Mansell and Norman do buy them and put some real
comittment into the team.
Paul
|
837.679 | A normal season? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Thu Aug 09 1990 10:27 | 11 |
| Any comment out there on the happenings in Iraq/Kuwait?
How does this affect motor sport in general, more specifically F1 this
season?
As I recall '76 was a short season because of the petrol crisis.
What with the cigarette advt. ban coming up and no petrol?? what's
next?.
regards George Frost
|
837.680 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | John, Hampshire House, Basingstoke | Thu Aug 09 1990 13:34 | 14 |
| I can't conceive Camel sponsoring Benetton somehow. After all the
Benetton exists to promote the knitwear and is painted in their
colours. If this means a puke green nose and yuk yellow body then
the depths really have been reached.
I thought the picture/description of the GLAS that I saw was very
smart. It has a sort of rounded off triangle shape to the main
body. McLaren going Tyrell's route !. As the only leading team,
perhaps only teamm, still using pull rod front suspension they
were due for a front end revision anyway.
_John_I_told_you_so_Lincoln
|
837.681 | more on RJR plans | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Thu Aug 09 1990 14:35 | 9 |
| More on Camel.
Definitely switching to Benetton (Nannini and Piquet have re-signed
for 1991). Barnard and Piquet are not cheap.
ICI might leave Williams. In that case Camel would also appear there.
Minor problem with Barclay (tobacco not bank). Barclay may go back
to Arrows (and hire back Boutsen .... d�ja vu !)
|
837.682 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Thu Aug 09 1990 14:36 | 2 |
| ... not to mention EJR ... which already carries the camel yellow
in F3000
|
837.683 | It's not just the "undertray!" | OVAL::KERRELLD | Jeg elsker musa mi | Thu Aug 09 1990 15:50 | 4 |
| In all the notes about Leyton House's improved performance no one has
mentioned that they have changed their fuel mixture. I this a secret?
Dave.
|
837.684 | Ron Dennis in this week AUTO-HEBDO | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Thu Aug 09 1990 17:33 | 8 |
| As mentionned above Kordon Kimball re-joined McLaren and becomes
the field engineer looking after Senna's car. Neil Oatley can now
go back to the drawing board and complete work on the MP4/6 (V12)
Ron Dennis also announced that XXXX (what's his name ?), the engineer
in aerodynamics who just left Ferrari because of relational problems
with Scalabroni, has also joined McLaren. XXX and Jean-Claude MIGEOD
(Tyrrell aerodynamics) are friends ...
|
837.685 | Hungaroring news anyone? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Aug 10 1990 16:52 | 3 |
| Anybody got any practice times yet?
Paul
|
837.686 | | SKIWI::EATON | Marketing - the rubber meets the sky | Mon Aug 13 1990 07:45 | 2 |
| Well done Williams !
Good chase by Senna as well...
|
837.687 | Statistics so far (sort of) | ULYSSE::COLLINS | Russ, 828-5371, Valbonne | Mon Aug 13 1990 09:09 | 69 |
| Here are some statistics from a French paper, just before the Hungarian
GP yesterday. Boutsen has changed these figures somewhat. (Great race
for him!)
-------- Laps in Lead, 1990 (including GP Germany) ---
Senna 270 (+ 131 in 2nd)
Berger 124
Prost 65
Capelli 45
Alesi 34
Mansell 27
Nannini 19
Boutsen 14
Patrese 12
-------- Distance (KM) Driven, 1990 (including GP Germany) ---
Berger 2551
Senna 2358
Prost 2323
Piquet 2263
Patrese 2228
Alesi 2218
Mansell 2146
Warwick 2072
Bernard 2053
Nannini 1995
Boutsen 1949
Larini 1908
Modena 1801
Alliot 1787
Donnelly 1601
-------- Total Laps Run, 1990 (including GP Germany) ---
Berger 578
Senna 546
Prost 511
Piquet 509
Mansell 502
Patrese 502
Alesi 501
Bernard 473
Warwick 472
Nannini 444
Boutsen 441
Modena 421
Alliot 415
Larini 411
Donnelly 363
Nakajima 362
Suzuki 357
Barilla 332
Caffi 322
De Cesaris 300
Foitek 299
Alboretto 297
Martini 278
Capelli 272
Grouillard 229
Lehto 222
Gugelmin 160
Brabham 116
Dalmas 103
Pirro 92
Schneider 70
Moreno 67
Morbidelli 64
Tarquini 41
|
837.688 | Budapest official results | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Aug 13 1990 09:27 | 14 |
| Boutsen Williams 1h49'30"597
Senna McLaren + 0"288
Piquet Benetton + 27"893
Patrese Williams + 31"833
Warwick Lotus + 1'14"244
Bernard Larrousse + 1'24"308
----------------------------------------------
Constructors Drivers championships
McLaren 83 Senna 54
Ferrari 57 Prost 44
Williams 42 Berger 29
Benetton 35 Boutsen 27
Tyrrell 14 Piquet 22
|
837.689 | Its all in a days racing.. | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Aug 13 1990 09:37 | 56 |
| To protect Ayrton from you lot........!!
Good race, fascinating rather than exciting, a good tactical battle
with a great drive from Boutsen to prove me wrong about his ability to
win unaided by fate. The performance of the Willaims must be tempting
Senna even more.
Good drive by Senna too after dropping back so far. The Mclaren looked
like a pig to drive in practice son he must be well pleased with 6
points. Congrats to Lotus too, maybe things will start to get better
now that a decent paint-job is on the horizon.
As for Ferrari - well, Prost was unspectacular and looked to just spin
out all on his own, and Mansell's lack of guile was shown up by the way
Nannini and Senna sliced past Patrese so easily. Considering Mansell
was using the new V12 he must have been very unhappy to have such a
poor top speed performance.
And so to the "incidents". Let me fist say that both Senna and Berger
were at fault, and that I felt desperately sorry for Nannini who I
thought would have won. However, the two incidents were typical of
close, competitive racing on a circuit with pathetic overtaking
opportunities, the McLaren boys had to take a risk.
Over the past few seasons, the front of the field has been so cut and
dried that the close wheel to wheel stuff has been in the mid-field,
now there are upto 6 teams running at the front and incidents like
these are bound to happen, its called motor racing. While the
Hungaroring looks to have excellent faciliites and is beautifully
located, they should give the drivers a few more places to overtake.
Anyway, did anyone else see Mansell doing his Suzuka Dying Swan bit in
the cockpit after his gentle (relatively) spin? The paper today says he
has a suspected sprained............finger!!! Wooden Oscar time! Berger
is also quoted as saying that Mansell squeezed him into the pit wall
which looked a fair comment.
Lastly, was anyone else p*ssed off by Hunt yesterday? His comments
about Gugelmin (who Murray kept calling Capelli) were way out of line.
Ian Phillips was interviewed on Eurosport on Friday and expressed a
strong hope that they could retain both drivers. Also Gugelmin is very
popular in the team, and is known as a superb test driver. Hunt was
being very short sighted. Gugelmin was regularly in the top 10 when the
Leyton House worked and has had some excellent drives - Silverstone in
88 & 89, Rio last year, fastest lap at Ricard last year after the
aerobatics, and a good defensive second to Capelli at Ricard this
year. With doubts over Capelli's future Gugelmin's re-signing gives
some stability. Also, at the time Hunt was slagging him off, Gugelmin
was running quite comfortably with the leaders, albeit lapped, *and* on
very soft D compound tyres. When Hunt remembers the name of the team
isn't March he might be a bit more qualified to talk!
Turn off flame, get off soap-box, now to look forward to Spa and some
real *racing*
Paul
|
837.690 | bits | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Aug 13 1990 10:23 | 12 |
| Senna drove like .... Prost (relatively slow start, quiet mid race,
early tyre change and then full boost until the big mistake with
Nannini).
Prost drove like ... Prost ! (if , if , if ?) Mansell drove like
Mansell (if , if , if ...). It should have been a Ferrari day.
Beautiful drive Thierry !
Prost (intercepted by TF1 reporter) "engine or gearbox seized otherwise
the car was excellent".
|
837.692 | | MARVIN::RUSLING | Hastings Upper Layers | Mon Aug 13 1990 11:06 | 22 |
|
A bit strong, Derek. Even Williams were saying that they were not
100% certain that Senna was in error, only 90%. As for Mansell, I
think that he was out of order and I believe that Benetton are tempted
to formally complain. Also, Aleisi was a bit naughty.
However, although I enjoyed the race, the lack of passing places meant
that there was a certain element of Russian Roulette about the
proceedings; I don't think Boutsen would have won, had there been
more opportunities for Senna to pass. Incidently, Senna was forced
to drive like Prost, he picked up a puncture on the 20th lap and
changed his tyres before having to work his way up the field. Mansell
was just hanging in there having worn his tyres badly earlier, he
was bound to lose places and he couldn't stand that; especially losing
them to Berger...
Anyway, highlights? Senna and Nannini taking advantage of Mansell's
momentary lapse to take him and Mansell's storming around the outside
of Berger. Had we been shown it, Senna storming through the field,
would have been something...
Dave
|
837.694 | Can it really be ANYTHING like that? | CRATE::SAXBY | | Mon Aug 13 1990 12:50 | 6 |
| > If you think "trying it on" to this extent is racing then maybe
> we should all take up NASCAR.
If you've seen Days of Thunder, you'll know what he means!!
Mark
|
837.696 | Spoilt | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | John, Hampshire House, Basingstoke | Mon Aug 13 1990 13:30 | 23 |
| What was surely one of the very closest races for many a long
year didn't really reach the peaks it should have done. The
circuit,just isn't wide enough to allow variations on lines
through all those bends. Also I found the TV coverage to be
technically poor, presumably they still use valves out there.
As regards the incidents in the race, I would certainly side
with Senna being disqualified for his manic lunge. There was
absolutely no attempt at a fair passing manouvre just a "I'm
pushing you out of the way" type approach. Nannini had driven
exceedingly well and looked favourite to win to me at the time
of the incident.
Berger's wasn't quite so bad but still a no hoper really, and
yes Mansell did push him off the circuit earlier on, and tried
a similar trick on Nannini too.
Add Alesi's ridiculous punt and it adds up to a sad total of
silliness. If something isn't done then we'll soon have races
looking like destruction derbys, with everyone looking for the
chance to flick an opponent off the track.
-John
|
837.697 | Ooh my finger hurts! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Aug 13 1990 14:02 | 29 |
| I thought the knives would be out for Ayrton by now ;-)
I still say that it was a function of the circuit rather than wreckless
driving for its own sake. With the lack of sensible overtaking
opportunities and the highly competitive front end of the field
something like that was fairly certain to happen.
Well matched machinery and highly motivated/competitive drivers always
have the occasional "coming together". Look at Rouse and Gravett in the
BTCC and the European F3000 race at Pau.
I looked at the circuit layout after the race, and there are a couple
of places where they could realign the track to link curves with
flowing curves rather than stop-go corners. Maybe Bernie should have
made a few mods part of the deal for the next 5 years.
Of the controversy for a bit, Pirelli looked to have their quallies
working well, Dallara and Minardi were well up again, and de Cesaris
was playing chicanes again in the early stages. Naka again made a prat
of himself though, after neatly keeping it going through the trap he
goes and slams it into the wall!
Another nail in the coffin of the old DFV - Dallara have signed for
exclusive use of the ex Leyton House Judd V10 for next year.
AND _ I still reckon it was just one of those things, although Nannini
probably thinks otherwise.
Paul
|
837.698 | nudge nudge, say n'more | COMICS::COOMBER | It works better if you plug it in | Mon Aug 13 1990 14:39 | 6 |
| Martin Brundle complained that Rusty Wallace delicatly nudged him off
in the last Iroc series race and lost him the championship. Brundle
expressed a certian amount of anger . Although I didn't see Burgers
efforts with Mansell , that didn't sound too much like a gentle nudge.
Garry
|
837.699 | welcome to NASCAR | BROKE::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Mon Aug 13 1990 16:21 | 40 |
| Great race, best we have had in a long while. It's real encouraging to
see 3-5 leaders within a few seconds, better than having the leader 40s
from the second. Of course, part of that could be because of the
passing problems.
The Senna incident: I would certainly side with those who think it was
unacceptable, and should be sanctioned. In the coverage we had (ESPN),
the view of the incident was not very clear, but they gave us a shot
from another angle after the race, and it was very clear that Senna was
at fault: his front whell was *behind* Nannini's rear, that's how he
pushed him off the ground (the Benetton actually was 5 feet off the
ground and sailing). He wasn't even close to Nannini before passing, he
cliped the inside border of the corner, and thus came straight into N
who was already at 90 degrees. Completely out of line
The Berger trick was not quite as bad, but nasty also. This is where
Senna shows all his superiority over his teammate: he is good enough to
litteraly throw the guy in front off the road, but not damage his car!
I don't think this can be made to be acceptable. This attitude really
sounds like "if you can't pass the guy in front, just shove him off the
road". If this is let to go on, next year's Ferrari will have big,
heavy fenders on front and back! This is *not* normal F1 driving.
It's so much more of a pity because Senna has been really maturing
during this season. The beginning of this race looked real good, and
his driving up to the incident looked solid, impressive, and polite.
From the coverage we've had, it definitely looked like his drive up the
field was solely due to good driving, not to bullying people he's
passing.
The sad part is, in two weeks, there will be a number of people pretty
angry with others, and ready to be nasty when they get by. If there is
no other way to have justice, you can't blame them! It's gonna make the
rest of the season less of brillant driving, and more of nasty tricks.
Oh well. Apart from that, a really splendid race. Let's hope we have
few more races (even seasons) of that close racing...
JP
|
837.700 | more bits | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Aug 13 1990 17:58 | 16 |
| Senna and Berger : definitely made a BIG mistake. Senna escaped
miraculously ... McLarens had, once again, super brakes. No excuse.
Alesi : I have taped various interviews before, during and after
the race, on TF1. During the race, Alesi after walking back to the
pits, was very angry at Martini : "I don't understand these guys, we
(the front runners) are lapping them and they just block the way"
Nannini : after being "overtaken" by Senna
"@%���!�&][]��" (in italian)
Qualifying tyres : the Pirelli guys were definitely not in a dominant
position anymore. Alesi acknowledged the fact (lost our unfair
advantage)
|
837.701 | de Cesaris 10th?!!? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Aug 13 1990 18:05 | 15 |
| Patrick,
I can't see Alesi's line on the Q tyres. Without a *big* Pirelli
advantage I can't see how the Dallara could have got in the top 10.
Also PLM in the Minardi was a lot higher than he's been of late.
The point was made that the Pirelli Q's can be shaved to give several
extra laps. This was how Alesi managed more than the two shots that the
Goodyear runners had.
As for Alesi getting blocked, I don't remember anybody else trying an
overtaking move where he went off with PLM, so it would not be
surprising if PLM didn't move over!
Paul
|
837.702 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | John, Hampshire House, Basingstoke | Mon Aug 13 1990 18:43 | 16 |
| I'm not so sure that Senna and Berger really did have good
drives back up the field. It seemed to me that the two fast
men on the day were Mansell and Nannini and they were held
up by not being able to get past the Williams cars thus
allowing the others to join in.
Mansell appeared to be the slowest of the leading cars down
the straight, hence his leaning very heavily on anyone who
tried to pull alongside and his inability to get past Patrese.
But given some empty track he was going very well. Prost too
seems to have had the same problem.
Considering that the circuit is so new it's very disappointing
that it's so poor, and particularly so narrow.
-John
|
837.703 | Piquet's Pay Day | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Tue Aug 14 1990 09:40 | 22 |
| Nelson Piquet's new contract with Benetton is repoted this morning as
being worth $2.8m plus $100k per point, roughly double this years deal.
Also, in the wind down from Sunday's entertainment, its interesting to
compare Benetton and Nannini's reputedly "philosophical" view of
proceedings with Fiorio and Mansell's hyperactive wailing. Considering
that Ferrari were not in with a sniff of a chance in the race when it
all happened, I find there demands for a stewards enquiry/witch-hunt a
little silly. Doubtless Senna will be accused of causing Prost to spin
next!
The most rabid view of the race I saw was in Today (one of Mr Murdoch's
"organs") where Mansell's sprained finger had become a Spa threatening
damaged hand, and the events in Hungary were going to lead to wholesale
mechanical carnage in Belgium with everybody out for revenge!
Lets just leave it as the right guy won, and all congratulations to
him, allied to sympathy for Nannini.
Paul
|
837.704 | | CRATE::SAXBY | | Tue Aug 14 1990 09:59 | 8 |
|
Quite right Paul, Boutsen came out of it smelling of roses.
Maybe Nannini can afford to be philosophical because his improved
performances over the last two races have cemented his place in the
Benetton team next season?
Mark
|
837.705 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Fist of fire | Tue Aug 14 1990 10:06 | 8 |
| My thoughts.
The McLaren boys were very naughty; however I can understand them being
frustrated - nowhere to overtake on this otherwise very pretty circuit.
Anybody else think that Nannini was the fastest in a straight line - his
car seemed to have the legs on the Williams and Ferrari?
|
837.707 | Dodgems again! | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Aug 14 1990 11:51 | 28 |
| I think it time for LMB to impose a minimum weight limit on F1.
All cars should carry armoured nosecones, protective wheel caps and
fenders, and a full rubber ring around the entire car - � la
dodgems.
Both drivers should be sanctioned (Berger and Senna).
Patrese was a real $hit. All his professional experience put to so
poor a use, keep Mansell from passing!. The only reason in my
opinion that Senna and Nannini got past was that Patrese was so
off his line playing dodgems with his eyes fixed on Mansell in the
rearview mirror, that he did not see them until it was too late.
I seem to recall that an overtaking flag/rule existed some years
ago. I do not recall the mechanics but it was something to the
effect that once waved by an official, the offending driver should
stop the blocking tactics - or be penalised.
Great for Boutsen and Williams, another superb effort by Benneton.
Both must soon be in the consistent top four.
regards George Frost
|
837.708 | Oh Ye of little brain Nigel | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Tue Aug 14 1990 12:03 | 14 |
| George,
I can't see how Patrese can be at fault, he was protecting his
position! Mansell only got close to him about twice, on the climb out
of the turn where he got Senna last year. Patrese was just strolling
away from the Ferrari on the straight. I thought he drove a good
defensive race, protecting Boutsen. Mansell however seemed very short
of ideas. He never thought of the move Senna pulled on him (although
Senna might have had his brain tickled by Alesi jumping him there at
the start) Also, Patrese went straight in for tyres as soon as he fell
back, and ended up with 3 points. If Mansell had done the same after
Nannini & Senna got him he might have got something out of the race.
Paul
|
837.709 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | John, Hampshire House, Basingstoke | Tue Aug 14 1990 13:36 | 5 |
| Of course there's always the possibility that the other drivers,
who do watch the video recordings, will have their own ideas on
who should be given an easy path in future.
-John
|
837.710 | brakes and wings | OASS::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Tue Aug 14 1990 15:34 | 10 |
| I think the comment about the McLaren's brakes was that they have always had
very good brakes so Senna and Berger had better not claim they hit the
other cars because of brake problems.
On straight line speed, it could have been helped by a lack of wing. Since
it was very difficult to pass in the turns, some of the drivers might have
sacrificed downforce for a little extra speed on the straight hoping to do
their passing there.
Dave
|
837.711 | non dementica | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Aug 14 1990 15:58 | 13 |
| And that for me John is the way 90% of the niggles and disputes should
be sorted out. The drivers all have their popularity etc. hit parade
and it is those opinions which carry most effect. Probably
sometimes override team instructions.
I think Nannini and Mansell were both robbed of very valuable
points but now that the McLarens are venerable (sic) anyone can
have a go at them. So by the end of the season it will have all
evened out.
Does anyone remember the "let him by" flag or rule?
George Frost
|
837.712 | blue flag | OASS::BURDEN_D | No! Your *other* right! | Tue Aug 14 1990 21:04 | 7 |
| In most racing groups, the blue flag (passing) is displayed at lapped
cars as faster cars are coming up to them. I don't know if it used
to 'force' anyone to actually give up a race position.
How the FIA defines it, probably only JMB and the Dwarf know....
Dave
|
837.713 | These are the voyages..... | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Wed Aug 15 1990 09:54 | 87 |
| No more on Hungary, but to summarize various bits in the who goes where
soap -
1 Prost Not going anywhere for the next twelve months, then maybe
retiring to manage Peugeot
2 Mansell Will only race if its a McLaren although Ferrari haven't
given up and Footwork want him as a test driver! Retirement
is now being called sabbatical.
3 Naka Probably stay put to go with the Honda yen that Ken is
getting
4 Alesi Tyrrell? Williams? Ferrari? Ken reckons he's staying, my
money is on Ferrari
5 Boutsen Probably Arrows despite Hungary
6 Patrese Williams deal almost signed but with a get out if Ferrari
want him!
7 Modena Marlboro are trying to "place" him, Tyrrell if Jean goes
8 Brabham Staying put?
9 Alboreto One of the Arrows guys is off for sure!
10 Caffi Who knows which, but my guess is Michele
11 Warwick Please stay if the team hangs together, and get the car
green & yellow!
12 Donnelly ???? EJR??
14 Grouillard ?????
15 Gugelmin Staying put
16 Capelli Ferrari a possibility, or Tyrrell or Williams, or no-where
if the 91 LH looks good
17 Tarquini ????
18 Dalmas Was a star before he got ill, could jump a league
19/20 Nannini/Piquet Signed & sealed
21 Pirro
22 de Cesaris One of these two is off but which one?
23 Martini Probably staying put
24 Barilla Under threat now that Ferrari is on the way
25 Larini ??? Could depend on the engine
26 Alliot Being tempted by peugeot
27 Senna AH well............. Thats the question
28 Berger No change til 93
29 Bernard Probably staying put
30 Suzuki Would like to stay put
31 Gachot ???
33 Moreno Mr Hot property at the moment could well do better next
year
34 Langes ????
35 Foitek Daddy has withdrawn him from Mr M's team cos of the state
of the car showed some promise
36 Lehto Also on the move. Marlboro want him somewhere nice like
BMS?
39 Giacomelli A nice beach would be better than Life
And coming in....
Comas, Morbidelli, Irvine, Brundle, Herbert, etc etc
Ah the rich tapestry of life
Paul
|
837.714 | lateral acceleration | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Thu Aug 16 1990 12:09 | 6 |
| Just read that the Ferrari team recorded up to 5g's lateral
acceleration in fast curves.
Just wondering if this is peak (1ms) or constant (3-4 seconds).
Any idea ? 5g's lateral seems a lot to me
|
837.715 | Thats why they are so slow! | NSSG::DAVE | Dave Lyons - Networks DCC - 226-5934 - LKG2-1/S4 | Thu Aug 16 1990 14:05 | 3 |
| Do Ferrari cars really spend 3-4seconds in the curve? Must be why they are
so slow!!!
:-}
|
837.716 | | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Thu Aug 16 1990 14:18 | 6 |
| theres a tv prog on tonight (bbc) about risks F1 drivers take
esp. the high g-forces (can't remember the name of the prog. tho...
something along the lines of "risk takers"
...art
|
837.717 | | CHEST::SAXBY | Turbo Boost, or V6 torque? | Thu Aug 16 1990 14:35 | 4 |
|
On the line BBC2 - 8.30 (I think)
Mark
|
837.718 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Thu Aug 16 1990 17:23 | 7 |
| One thing I remember is that when they lift their right foot (stupid
idea indeed) they get something like -1g longitudinal acceleration.
This is due to the drag induced by their aerodynamic devices (flaps) +
other minor devices like body, tyres, etc
Look at the driver's helmet when he shifts gears ...
|
837.719 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Fri Aug 17 1990 10:44 | 13 |
| The situation in the McLaren team is reported to be very difficult
those days. Apparently Ayrton has severely criticised Ron's attitude
vs managing the technical evolution of the car. To confirm this
Ayrton has publicly declared that he was available for reasonable
offers ... As a result, he got BIG offers from a number of teams
(you can't let a star like Senna go ....). Honda (Osamu Goto San)
seems to agree with Senna ...
Ron has definitely started a recovery plan with the hiring of Gordon
Kimball and (what's his name ?) the aerodynamics specialist who
left Ferrari.
It should be interesting to see what will happen next
|
837.720 | Nigel & Cesare = Kylie & Jason?? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Aug 17 1990 11:26 | 11 |
| Last night Ceefax were showing a story from Cesare Fiorio stating that
they were still working hard to get Mansell in a Ferrari next season,
and that it might be starting to work. There were also denials from
both Ferrari and Ivan Capelli that he had signed for them.
It would be interesting to see what they are offering Nigel, probably
things like guaranteed spare car at every race and almost no testing -
that way he gets more time with the wife & kids. Plus of course a lot
of dosh!!
Paul
|
837.721 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Fri Aug 17 1990 13:56 | 12 |
| Well, the problem between Fiorio and Mansell is simple. This year,
1990, Ferrari (FIAT) pay their drivers some pretty high salaries.
At Paul Ricard, Fiorio said to Mansell : Nigel, we're happy if you
stay with us next year, but you'll only get half your current salary.
Hence Nigel's decision.
Now Fiorio is also having problems in the Ferrari/Fiat structure.
Several people think that the real Ferrari Team manager is ... Prost.
Prost/Mansell for 1991 ? Why not ?
|
837.722 | I read it somewhere! | CHEST::SAXBY | Is this personal or what? | Fri Aug 17 1990 14:12 | 4 |
|
Don't Malborough pay Ferrari drivers?
Mark
|
837.723 | Wanna fag guv? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Aug 17 1990 14:48 | 9 |
| Drivers in "The Marlboro World Championship Team" receive varying sums
from the cancer merchants. Capelli for example gets $75k. The rest off
their salaries are from the teams, and other sponsors. I think in
Senna'a case a large proportion of the $10m comes from Honda.
I don't know what the proportions are at Ferrari tho'.
Paul
|
837.724 | Outside assistance? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Aug 20 1990 09:59 | 7 |
| I don't know if its my warped mind but I found a Murrayism at
Hungaroring very amusing:
"...and Boutsen has had some help from the elf-people in getting a few
more hores power"
Paul
|
837.725 | EJR ? | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Aug 20 1990 10:50 | 15 |
| More on RJR, Camel 91
Big bucks go to Benetton as already announced. What's left goes
to Williams. Period. No more Larrousse (who does not need it thanks
to ESPO) but no EJR either.
Seems EJR sees the door to F1 close before his eyes. Ford have declared
that Benetton (read John Barnard) had not been asked about supplying
another batch of F1 HB engines. And the answer (from JB) is ......
....... definite NO !
The latest info is that Ford may select to supply a "downgraded"
version of their engine under the responsibility of a private shop
(Peck, Mader, Nicholson, ...., ???)
|
837.726 | Monteverdi and Foitek | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Aug 20 1990 10:54 | 10 |
| Another "negative" bit
Peter Monteverdi is broke. Gregor Foitek has publicly announced
that he will NOT drive a Monteverdi Onyx at Spa. Has Daddy Foitek
found another wheel for his son ?
Other possibility: Foitek is doing some lobbying in order to get
a sound and reliable car for Spa. Monteverdi may not be able to
find additional funding (to get fresh spare parts), hello swiss
banks ...
|
837.727 | Eddie will be there | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Aug 20 1990 12:08 | 25 |
| Re EJR
My understanding is that EJR will get strictly customer Ford engines,
without the fuel management system, and with the spec frozen at the end
of the season. This gives Benetton their advantage. As for Camel
sponsorship, I reckon Eddie can rustle up the dosh from somewhere. He's
also got a good roster of former drivers on his books.
Re Onyx - Sorry Monteverdi
Daddy Foitek pulled baby Gregor out after the practice shunt in
Hungary, after his crash was caused by the breaking of an already
cracked wishbone! I think he was concerned that no-one would be around
to pick up their inheritance! Lehto was using the same engine as in
Germany so its not surprising he couldn't qualify. Also, his lost first
session was caused by a wrongly assembled diff (again!)
Its a real shame to see a team that had so much potential last season
on the brink of going out of business. They owe Goodyear and a load of
other suppliers quite a bit, but are supposedly awaiting their next
Marlboro cheque. If I was Marlboro's main sponsorship man I would
seriously consider paying off past debts and nothing more, and quietly
suggest they packed up and let a real team like Ligier out of pre-qual.
Paul
|
837.728 | What's news? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Aug 20 1990 14:06 | 1 |
| any news out of SPA?
|
837.729 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Aug 20 1990 16:30 | 10 |
| re .727 brrrr .... frightening !! sounds like Rial last
year
About Ligier : the drivers are very happy to participate (!) in
the prequalif sessions. They declared that (given prequalifying
is no issue ...) they were allowed 1 additional hour for setting
the car correctly.
Any details on Lotus ? We hear some rumours around here of people
or organizations who are ready to acquire the whole lot.
|
837.730 | Lotus 103 will be a golf cart | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Aug 20 1990 16:40 | 10 |
| Re Lotus
The team bosses were denying any sell-off last week, with Clive Chapman
staying in charge. However, there are still rumours floating around
potential buyers, including the Norman/Mansell consortium.
Peter Collins and another guy who's name escapes me have been appointed
as consultants to help with the restructuring/repainting of the team.
Paul
|
837.731 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | John, Hampshire House, Basingstoke | Mon Aug 20 1990 19:06 | 23 |
| The Beeb reckoned there was a new Lotus in the offing, perhaps
for Spa. Anyone know any more?.
Some bits on the intrique courtesy of an article in the paper.
Apparently there's some high court action in the offing with
regard to Alesi. Williams seem to think that they've got some
legal agreement that buys Alesi from Tyrrell ,but Uncle Ken
doesn't agree. Apparently the �1.2m transfer fee isn't enough.
Meanwhile Alesi is more interested in the big money at Ferrari.
He denies signing for anyone of course. Personally I can't see
what all the fuss is about. Having seen a deal more of his form
this season I don't think he's stable enough to really succeed
at the present time. A sort of Franco-Italian Mansell.
It seems that Mansell will get a payoff if he retires/or to retire.
His agreement with Ferrari says he gets No 1 treatment. Money persuaded
him to share with Prost but there's still one year to go.
Ah the rich tapestry of F1.
-John
|
837.732 | Ben Hur or F1? | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Tue Aug 21 1990 14:51 | 19 |
| RE: Hungarian demo derby.
Even after several days to cool, I'm still shocked and disappointed at
the cavalier and callous comments about the race and especially the
overtaking maneuvers. Let's all focus on a simple fact: If driver A
intentionally contacts driver B, then A is intentionally putting B's
life in jeopardy.
Finally, a track's configuration is no excuse for kamikaze tactics.
Have we all forgotten that Mansell passed Senna at Hungary last year?
Without running him off the track. I seem to recall he also pulled an
"impossible" pass on Berger at Mexico this year. Without ramming him.
Nigel can be a pain, but he, Nannini, et al deserve to be able to act
as professional race car drivers without being assaulted by Roman
charioteers. I think ramming another driver is the ultimate taboo for a
pro, and the ultimate statement about the rammers lack of true skill
and professionalism.
Don
|
837.733 | Neither Ben Hur or F1 but F3 | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Wed Aug 22 1990 09:35 | 14 |
| Don,
I agree with some of your comments, but cannot agree that Berger and
Senna deliberately punted the opposition off the island. Both the moves
were ill-judged and had unfortunate results, but they were not
intentional contacts.
As for "Our Nige", his move on Senna last year was largely the result
of Senna tripping over Johansson. I think the real significance of
Hungary's events can be seen by the lack of protests by the injured
parties, they are miffed and unhappy about the outcome, but didn't see
anything deliberate.
Paul
|
837.734 | Who's going this weekend??? | PLAYER::KENNEDY_C | The same old clich� | Wed Aug 22 1990 11:36 | 2 |
|
Time to get wet again .....
|
837.735 | personal view | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Aug 22 1990 11:58 | 1 |
| for me Spa and Suzuka are the 2 real F1 circuits
|
837.736 | no news yet | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Aug 22 1990 12:14 | 1 |
| Has anybody got ANY news yet on times etc. at SPA?
|
837.737 | All quiet in the Ardennes | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Wed Aug 22 1990 13:02 | 22 |
| Re Spa
The teams were mostly at Monza testing last week, with various F3000
drivers having a trash as well. McLaren & Ayrton fastest followed by
Mansell, Alesi (on v sticky Qs) Berger, Morbidelli (Ferrari) Boutsen,
Patrese, Martini, de Cesaris, Herbert (Lotus) Prost etc etc
Lotus are due to have a revised chassis for Spa, they are following the
L/House route and getting a stiffer one (ooh err ;->)
Onyx are rumoured to be totally driver less with Lehto having bailed
out. Eric van der Poele is being mentioned as a possible (he must be
desperate) but I would have thought he was due in Brum for the Super
Prix.
I would also expect some more positive driver stuff from the paddock.
I saw the Williams and Goodyear trucks heading for Dover yesterday
afternoon, so I presume they are at the track as I type unloading,
setting up etc.
Paul
|
837.738 | And on to the next one | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | John, Hampshire House, Basingstoke | Wed Aug 22 1990 13:47 | 24 |
| Who's going to win at Spa then? Certainly it should be a true
run race, rather than what we saw in Hungary.
This doesn't make it any easier to predict however, which is
a good reflection on the competitive nature of the game at
present.
When I belittled Williams'es chances before Hungary it only
resulted in something of a return to form and a (lucky) win.
This isn't the first time my predictions have been upturned
in this manner. So -
McLaren will totally dominate at Spa, both drivers lapping the
entire field and sweeping home to a crushing victory heartily
applauded by masses of delirious fans. No-one else has any
chance whatsoever, least of all Nannini (Stuck on grid) or
Piquet (off at first corner). Both Ferraris blow their engines
on lap 2, and Mansell won't complain about his car's reliability.
The Williamses run strongly for 3 laps before colliding with each
other. Alesi has an incident free race and comes in second.
So there you have it.
-John
|
837.739 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain... | Wed Aug 22 1990 13:59 | 5 |
| RE: -.1
John,
This then is code for "Don't put any money on the McLaren twins or
Allez-y this weekend". Thanks for the tip
|
837.740 | Just Boutsen in the rain la laa ... | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Aug 22 1990 16:04 | 7 |
| 1 Mansell to win for me.
2 Prost now needs all his points and will fight with Senna for
second.
Boutsen to put up a good performance again....home ground you know
Berger over-cooks it in the wet as does Alesi.
|
837.741 | For sale - two car(e)less owners from new | NSDC::SIMPSON | Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain... | Thu Aug 23 1990 12:15 | 10 |
| Onyx-Monteverdi got axed by Bernie yesterday, so poor 'ol Ligier lose their
opportunity for pre-testing. J-J and Gregor are carless. Gregor's daddy is
Franc-less.
$
$
$
$
$
|
837.742 | Bits 'n' Pieces | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Thu Aug 23 1990 12:59 | 29 |
| This week's snippetts:
Lamborghini will be expanding engine supply for next year, as long as
teams come up with financial guarantees, likely teams are Lotus, Lola,
Glas and Osella.
Mansell still chatting to Ferrari but discussions are protracted 'cos
of the contract. Things being discussed include compensation for not
being No 1 this year, and a clause allowing retirement but not another
team in '91. This is causing another log jam in the driver roundabout.
Herbert activley looking for rides for next year after his performance
at Monza. Staying at Hethel in place of Warwick or Donnelly is thought
to be a possibility.
Apicella doing testing for Glas.
Brabham looking at Brundle and Damon Hill for next year?
Minardi-Ferrari may have active suspension for second half of next
year.
F1 test at Hungaroring 29-30-31 August.
Interview with McNish saying he's planning another season in F3000 but
also keeping options open - possibly Tyrrell due to the Honda
connection.
Paul
|
837.743 | Goodbye Onyx - Good Riddance Monteverdi | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Thu Aug 23 1990 13:24 | 16 |
| Re Monteverdi
The news that Mr Monteverdi has thrown in the towel is very depressing.
Last year Onyx looked to have a very bright future. They had good
drivers in Johansson and Lehto, and were definately going in the right
direction.
They were unlucky to get caught up with two wealthy ego-maniacs, van
Rossem and Monteverdi. I believe that they would still be around if
Monteverdi had left the team running as it had done, and not tried to
stamp his authority all over the place.
I hope that if there is anything left to sell, which I doubt, it will
be bought by someone with more feeling for F1.
Paul
|
837.744 | | ULYSSE::COLLINS | Russ, 828-5371, Valbonne | Fri Aug 24 1990 08:16 | 5 |
| Prost has signed with Ferrari. There was much speculation by the
announcers about who number two would be. No conclusions except ... not
Senna.
russ
|
837.745 | Mansell now the key to '91 | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Aug 24 1990 09:30 | 33 |
| The paper this morning quotes Fiorio as syaing Mansell has until the
end of the month to decide on whether he will drive for Ferrari next
season. That would presumably allow them to announce a replacement at
Monza.
Earlier in the week Fiorio also stated that there was a mutual desire
for Senna to be in a Ferrari in '92, assuming he can get a 1 year deal
for '91.
Stake in the ground time:
If Mansell stays -
Senna will conclude a 1 year deal at McLaren and move to Ferrari in
'92. Alesi will probably go to Williams and bend more cars in one
season than Boutsen and Patrese have since they arrived.
If Mansell goes -
Ferrari will push for Alesi, accepting Capelli, Patrese and possibly
Morbidelli as alternatives. Modena could also be an outside bet. If it
is Alesi, Senna will go for a three year deal, probably at McLaren, but
if it is Williams, McNish will find himself No2 to Berger, and will out
drive him from mid season.
Prediction for 1991 -
Debate over driver contracts will start in Phoenix, with Mario Andretti
rumoured to be returning to Lotus or Ferrari as player-manager, but
only if Michael comes too. All the top drivers are so busy running in a
and out of motorhomes that Andrea de Cesaris wins in the Life.
Paul
|
837.746 | More on Mr Monteverdi | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Aug 24 1990 09:36 | 17 |
| Ceefax last night had Peter Monteverdi claiming he would be back next
season when the team was fully sorted and located in Switzerland. He
also stated that Swiss drivers would have preference. The only ones I
can think of are Foitek and Menu.
I presume he has come to a deal with Bernie the Shades over fines for
non-attendance at GPs, since if they miss the rest of the season they
will owe Bernie $1.5m ($250k per race) before they even start next
season.
I would be surprised to see them back next year.
Still, I hear that everyone gets a lie in now as there is no need for
pre-qualifying. Imagine, Senna being blocked by the Life on a quick
one!!
Paul
|
837.747 | Alesi - Car breaker? | CRATE::SAXBY | Is this personal or what? | Fri Aug 24 1990 09:45 | 16 |
| Paul,
Why do you think Alesi will bend more cars at Williams than the
current drivers? The most impressive thing about Alesi is that he
is fast, but finishes races, a great deal more than can be said for
a lot of the current 'stars' in their early F1 days.
Alesi IS the best rising driver around, but I think a move to Ferrari
would, potentially, be disasterous to his career, and if he went to
Williams he may have too much pressure exerted on him by a zealous
French press. I suspect his best move is to stay with Tyrrell and their
Honda engines next year, if he does well it'll improve his standing and
if not everyone will blame the Tyrrell. On the other hand he'll
probably make a lot more money driving for one of the big-4.
Mark
|
837.749 | The boy Alesi done good, but... | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Aug 24 1990 10:13 | 21 |
| I agree that spinning is good for you, Villeneuve is my hero, but I
think Alesi is becoming a victim of his own publicity. With the extra
power of the Renault or Ferrari behind him he might just push *too*
hard. His rise has been meteoric, and he definately has something
extra, but he needs to keep his head screwed on. Afterall, he's only
just getting round to circuits he raced on last year, and, he's yet to
win a GP. OK, so he hasn't had the machinery most times, but Donnelly,
Bernard and Comas were all equal to him in F3000. Alesi got the break,
and good luck to him.
His move on PL Martini at Hungaroring was very ill-judged. I hope he
does stay at Tyrrell, both for his sake and for Uncle Ken's. Alesi can
learn about running at the front on faster cicuits, and Ken can get
some return on his investment.
Anyway, I reckon McNish will overshadow him as soon as he gets into the
big time, he has a more calculating approach, and will have watched
David Brabham struggling this year with interest.
Paul
|
837.750 | Alesi - Simply the best! | CRATE::SAXBY | Is this personal or what? | Fri Aug 24 1990 10:25 | 9 |
|
Alesi beat all the drivers you mentioned in F3000 last year, none
of them could have been said to have matched him really and certainly
there are major differences in approach and technique between driving
a restricted F3000 car and an F1.
McNish? If he ever makes it to F1, he'll sink without trace.
Mark
|
837.751 | Alesi - right place, right time | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Aug 24 1990 10:39 | 27 |
| Sorry, can't agree about Alesi beating that lot. He only won the
championship by a whisker. For the first part of the season Donnelly
was beating him hands down, but Alesi came through in the second half.
At Birmingham last year I rated Donnelly much higher as he was driving
an untested rebuilt car, and still finished 3rd.
I can't remember the exact details, but I'm sure that Comas and Alesi
ended up on the same number of points last year in F3000, with Alesi
getting the title on three wins to two.
In fact, Donnelly was Ken Tyrrell's first choice for Ricard last year
but Warwick had already recommended him to Arrows when he fell off his
cart in Jersey. Ken went to Eddie Jordan and said who else have you
got, and he came up with Alesi, to whom Ken said "Who?"
The rest as they say is history.
Bernard also regularly beat Alesi in F3, as did Dalmas I think.
I can't see how you can write off McNish like that. He already *is* in
F1 with his McLaren test contract. He was the first person to drive the
V12 remember. Anyone who can come back from what happened to him at
Donnington and win two weeks later has definately got "it". If he isn't
World Champion within 5 years you can write lock me from this
conference ;-)
Paul
|
837.752 | Qual times??? | BROKE::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Fri Aug 24 1990 12:02 | 3 |
| Any news from the qualifyings in Belgium???
JP
|
837.753 | Follow the leader? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Fri Aug 24 1990 12:16 | 8 |
| It appears that everyone and his dog want go to Ferrari.
(Tongue-in-cheek) Does this mean it will be the team to beat for the
'91 season.? Does it also mean that everybody wants to drive the
chassis that has been set-up by Alain Prost?
regards George Frost
|
837.754 | Yet more Rumours | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Aug 24 1990 12:40 | 11 |
| Off Vogon today (source unknown)
Senna rumours -
Camel have offered $15m for Senna to drive for Williams, as opposed to
$12m from Marlboro to drive for McLaren. Also, a rumour that Honda
engineer Kawamoto setting up a works Honda team with Senna as driver.
Also - Williams to have Renault RS2 evolution N2 engine for Spa.
Paul
|
837.755 | McTyrrell | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Fri Aug 24 1990 14:04 | 6 |
| McLaren has done some Tyrrell/Leyton House front wing testing at
Monza. Since the rest of the car (including the front nose bottom)
was unchanged the test was not conclusive. They will probably redesign
the front end very soon.
Nice photo in Auto Hebdo showing Senna in the McTYRRELL (ugly).
|
837.756 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | John, Hampshire House, Basingstoke | Fri Aug 24 1990 14:12 | 33 |
| Heard some time ago that Piquets contract for next season is
$2.8m + $100k/point. Also Bernie says he thinks contracts of
this type are a good thing and that in theory every driver
could have a standard contract. The better drivers would then
find themselves in the best cars and thus make more money from
results. Could simplify the system a lot methinks.
Alesi surely will leave Tyrrell even though he's still got a year
to go on the present contract. Here's my reasoning why -
Uncle Ken doesn't believe in spending a lot on drivers (niether
would I if I was a team manager - cars matter more), so isn't
upping the ante.
Uncle Ken probably thinks Alesi is too erratic.
Uncle Ken would like to gain a nice recompense for releasing Alesi.
Alesi would like to earn big bucks money.
There are teams around willing to pay it for him.
There are middle-men around prepared to 'work' on the situation.
I must say I feel sorry for Ken. Next season should see the Tyrrell
become a 100% competitive car for the first time since Stewart's
days and he's stuck with Nakajima. The crucial issue to me about
the comings and goings is who gets No1 at Tyrrell, yet it's never
mentioned, presumably because Ken wants still to give the impression
of wanting to keep Alesi.
-John
|
837.757 | sad ONYX story | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Fri Aug 24 1990 14:13 | 25 |
| the real story
Peter Monteverdi buys Onyx, with financial support from Frei (Swiss
Ferrari importer) and Foitek (Ferrari dealer in Zurich).
Monteverdi discovers that there more unpaid invoices than originally
planned.
Monteverdi runs the team (and discovers that it costs a fortune
to own a F1 team). 2 paying drivers: baby Foitek and Jarvilehto.
Monteverdi moves the whole operation to Basel, Switzerland.
Monteverdi is broke. Suppliers dont ship spare parts. Onyx still
owe a lot of money to a lot of people.
At Budapest, Foitek jr loses a wheel and discovers that the suspension
was cracked. Foitek jr resigns. Foitek sr takes his money back.
Jarvilehto and Marlboro decide to give up.
No money, no Swiss ! Monteverdi is still looking for money to settle
the Onyx case in Great Britain.
I dont think we'll ever see him back.
|
837.758 | Is it rainning over there ? | YIPPEE::FILHOL | Where are we ? | Fri Aug 24 1990 14:56 | 7 |
| G. Berger has done the best lap at Spa for the first free training !
2 more french pilots will be on the track next sunday (because of
qualifying, of course):
Dalmas, and Grouillard
Bruno.
|
837.759 | And the result is... | SKIWI::EATON | Marketing - the rubber meets the sky | Sun Aug 26 1990 23:21 | 1 |
| Senna wins (just) from Prost. Good race !
|
837.760 | a few impressions | BROKE::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Mon Aug 27 1990 05:49 | 45 |
| an interesting race indeed.
Three starts is a lot for one race. I found the second one quite
interesting: Senna on pole, Berger on second, Prost on third.
Immediately on the green, Berger cut across to block Prost, in a manner
I found extremely aggressive. He seemed to be at a 30 def angle to the
road, and found slowing Prost more important that having a good start -
and indeed the result of this is that Boutsen passed both of them. Hum,
quite aggressive drivers, those McHonda boys. Looks like Berger had
solid team orders to help his leader get the points.
The race was quite close, with Prost finishing a couple seconds behind
Senna, with fastest lap. Add to that that Senna had a clean road all
along, while Prost had to battle first with Berger, and pass him, then
with Nannini, and pass him. The two cars look quite close.
An intersting moment was when Senna, coming out of his pits for tyres,
ended up just in front of Nannini, who was third but did not pit.
Nannini seemed ready to demonstrate what he thought of Hungary.
Fortunatley for Senna, he came out in front on Nannini, not in back.
Could of been quite interesting.
I'll leave the details of the race to our almost professional
commentator, who'se accounts I so greatly enjoy.
For championships, seems like Senna is definitely taking a strong
options, although with the cars being so close, anything can happen.
On intersting comment was the 11/16 rule: Senna finished in the points
on 9 races, only two to go before he has to start dropping points. I
don't remeber this year's races (congratulations to all ye who go and
ask questions like "who finished 9th on the English GP in '58...). but
the commentator here in the US claims that Senna's worst point finish
is third, so dropping points could be by chunks of four. We could end
up in a situation like '88, with the championship going to the one with
less total points - but with the roles reversed. That would be a
devilish twist.
But to be quite fair, a very good race by the top two men, very close,
with Prost's passes probably explaining the difference (though Senna,
even caught, would not have been easy to pass). Great show by Nannini,
who decided to show to Berger what he didn't get a chance to show to
Senna. A rising star???
JP
|
837.761 | | ULYSSE::COLLINS | Russ, 828-5371, Valbonne | Mon Aug 27 1990 09:45 | 22 |
| Another briliant race by Prost. Starting way back third, he used his
usual driving skills to work his way up to second by the end of the
race. Ha ha ha -;) (or whatever the smiley face is). Yep, I'm a Senna
fan.
Actually, Senna widened the gap from around 11 seconds to 12 seconds,
setting many "fastest laps" while Prost had a couple of fastest laps.
Senna did have the advantage of clearing a couple of the back markers
before Prost had his chance.
On the first two starts, Berger clearly chopped Prost. It appeared that
the Ferrari would have been faster on the initial drag race if it
hadn't been for Berger. Of course, Boutsen was ready for Berger's move
on the second start, nicely going through the hole Berger left on the
other side. By the third start, I think Prost was too nervous to even
try to get by.
The double pit stop, by Senna and Prost, was beautiful. I want to rerun
the video again to see just how close Senna came out in front of
[Nannini?].
russ
|
837.762 | Thsnks the pit-team ! | YIPPEE::FILHOL | Where are we ? | Mon Aug 27 1990 10:02 | 14 |
| Results of SPA 1990:
1. SENNA
2. PROST
3. BERGER
4. NANNINI
5. PIQUET
6. GUGELMIN
Fastest lap: Prost or Senna !
7. Capelli
8. Alesi
9. Bernard...
|
837.763 | | CASEE::MERRICK | Aspiring to a writers block... | Mon Aug 27 1990 10:34 | 5 |
| Fastest lap was Prost, 1'55"087 which translates to 217,088 km/h.
Senna's race average was 211,729 km/h.
Does anybody know what happened to Barilla? The replay showed the
Minardi in bits and then the DeCeasaris/Martini tangle. Very confusing.
|
837.764 | pulling G's | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Aug 27 1990 12:37 | 27 |
| Prost DID drive a great race. What impressed me was the ease with which
he passed Berger (not seen of course) and the consistency between
Senna and Prost. The cars are now without a doubt equally matched.
Pit stop timing was critical and again cost Prost valuable seconds.
One other point, Prost was very disappointed with his qualification
saying that McLaren consistently have a very good tyre set-up to get
Senna and Berger into pole and second respectively.
Prost was fastest Sunday morning in race trim, full tanks etc., for the
free practice and set fastest lap for real Sunday afternoon.
Seems to me that he should now start going more seriously for pole if
he intands to take out McLaren more regularly.
McLaren were running the old engine according to the pre-race blurb so
does that mean more performance when the new motor is used or will
there be a reliability problem when it is first introduced?
I noticed that Ferarri were running a new front wing (doubled up like a
Fowler flap on STOL aircraft) and Jean Paul Jarrier the Monte Carlo TV
commentator pointed out the new air intakes at the rear (for the
disks?).
Commentary also mentioned 4 to 5 G's being pulled in the curves with some
momentary lack of vision being reported.
regards George Frost
|
837.765 | Mansell needs all the help he can get! | NSDC::SIMPSON | Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain... | Mon Aug 27 1990 13:21 | 11 |
| How about all having an agreement to not knock Mansell?! Has this guy suddenly
become a loser - or what?! These days he seems to have mentally lost before he
ever steps into the car. Yes, he is having an unfortunate time with people
"punting" him; however I feel that his defeatest attitude is contributing.
Why don't we all be nice to him so that he can see his last 5 Grand Prix's out
in peace, before quietly slipping away into retirement.
Cheers
Steve
|
837.766 | he can do it? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Aug 27 1990 15:05 | 7 |
| you believe in faith healing or what?
He is still good, he can win if he gets a few breaks (npi) on the
track.
Sooo break a wishbone Nigel!
George Frost
|
837.767 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Aug 27 1990 15:24 | 10 |
| Another beautiful race by Senna and Prost, I think. The fastest
guy won. Prost was handicapped by his 3rd place on the grid, then
by his pit stop (something like 2 secs slower than Senna's) and
then by his "inability" to lap slower cars.
I thought Prost would close on Senna when he came at something like
3secs. But then he lost time in the pits, time behind slower cars, ...
to end up at 10secs behind. Prost tried the best lap a couple of
times, Senna replied, so Prost knew he could not do anything
|
837.768 | Senna's title now | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Tue Aug 28 1990 09:59 | 60 |
| Re Spa
Good race on the best circuit around. Classy drive by Senna, good one
by Prost, but again demonstrating his inability to cope with traffic
cleanly and quickly. I felt sorry for Mansell having to drive a Prost
set up car on a circuit that should have suited him. Berger did a good
No2 job again, but do you pay No2's $5m pa? Williams were disppointing
in general although Boutsen was going very well in Race No2, and the
Benettons again showed well.
Nice to see Leyton House being best of the rest again, like in the
turbo days. Roll on the Ilmor V10!
Re Barilla
He is quoted as saying that he just lost it due to excessive understeer
that had plagued the Minardi's all weekend and slammed the armco *very*
hard.
Re Drivers
Eurosport showed interviews with Donnelly and Modena over the weekend.
Donnelly is clearly not in tune with Lotus. He never once said "we"
always "they", and openly admitted that come what may he would be in F1
next year and that he was talking to other teams as allowed in his
contract.
Modena on the otherhand came across as very supportive of Brabham, and
stressed that he would not feel right talking to other teams while he
was still No 1 and wanted by Brabham. He came across as a very nice
guy.
I was interested to hear on the Beeb that Caffi has been testing the
Ferrari, I reckon he would be a good No2 to Prost. Also, Ceefax last
night quoted Boutsen as saying that he was an "outcast" at Williams and
that no-one ever spoke to him. Warwick is also quoted as saying he will
definately be in F1 next year and is talking to 4 teams. Brundle was
interviewed at yesterday's Super Prix F3000 race and was adamant he
would only go back into F1 with one of the top teams.
Re Mansell
I would be amazed to see Mansell recant now. Talking on TV yesterday he
was so relaxed and was committed to his decision. Also his
body-language when he retired on Sunday indicated he definately
wouldn't be in a Ferrari! I'll be sad to see him go as there will be
not be a top flight Brit around.
Re James Hunt
On the train to Birmingham yesterday we met James Hunt (also being a
cheap skate and paying the #3 weekend supplement to go 1st class rather
than the full fare!) and we had a discussion about the merits of
Gugelmin. The discussion was interesting, but the best bit was that he
took the time to stop and chat. I can exclusively reveal here that he
has bacon rolls for breakfast!
See the F3000 note for bits on the Super Prix.
Paul
|
837.769 | crazy season | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Aug 29 1990 09:14 | 9 |
| Now that the Senna-McLaren-Honda-Marlboro deal is signed we now
have for 1991:
- Prost Ferrari
- Senna McLaren
- Piquet Benetton
- Nannini Benetton
That leaves another 30 cars available ....
|
837.770 | Nigel ? | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Aug 29 1990 09:23 | 15 |
| Does anyone know what happened to Nigel during the 1st start at
SPA ?
I watched the tape several times and could not really conclude.
He seems to have overestimated the braking distance, locked a front
wheel and spun. Could not find evidence of someone else hitting
him sideways or from the back.
The Barilla/Minardi accident took place at the worst place of the
circuit, up the EAU-ROUGE uphill, right after the left right combo
following the pits downhill "straight". Remember the 2 Tyrrells a
couple of years ago ? Speed is around 250kph +/- 20kph ... no wonder
the rear end rests apart from the main shell. Truly amazing that
the driver escapes perfectly unhurt.
|
837.771 | Clear the Start Line | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Wed Aug 29 1990 09:32 | 23 |
| Re -2 Drivers
Berger is also confirmed at McHonda, his contract is until '92. It
might help if he won a race tho'!
Re -1 Mansell's shunt
My instinctive reaction was that he was shunted from behind, on the
replays it seemed that Alesi (sorry Mark :->) locked up and gently
nudged Piquet who was also locking up, and who then punted Mansell into
the barrier.
All in all it would seem far more sensible for the start to be moved
back round the hairpin, and let the F1 hangers on have to walk a bit!
Re Mansell & Ferrari
It seems that Ferrari were not best pleased with him "giving up" on
Sunday and are after a detailed look at the car and a frank discussion.
Apparently there are even rumours in the Italian press (aren't there
always!) that he will be sacked before Monza!
Paul
|
837.773 | Paranoia? | CRATE::SAXBY | Is this personal or what? | Wed Aug 29 1990 09:37 | 5 |
|
Certainly NOT Alesi's fault. Still McNish wouldn't even have scraped
onto the grid! :^)
Mark
|
837.774 | Paranoid? Who says I'm paranoid? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Wed Aug 29 1990 09:47 | 7 |
| I thought that might wake you up Mark!
Seriously, I wasn'y saying it was his fault, just that he was one of
the ones locking up in the cloud of blue smoke.
Paul
|
837.775 | English paper rumours | BAHTAT::FORCE4::hilton | How's it going royal ugly dudes? | Wed Aug 29 1990 10:40 | 7 |
| In yesterday's paper, rumours that Williams are trying to sign Mansell.
Apparently he was even seen in their area!
Shock, horror ;^)
Greg
|
837.777 | | FORTY2::BETTS | | Wed Aug 29 1990 11:21 | 4 |
|
First name terms eh, Derek?
Bill.
|
837.779 | | FORTY2::BETTS | | Wed Aug 29 1990 12:03 | 5 |
|
Only kidding, Derek (Mr. Mitchell? ;-) ). Actually he used to be my
next door neighbour before 'the accident'.
Bill.
|
837.780 | Spa bits | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | John, Hampshire House, Basingstoke | Wed Aug 29 1990 13:51 | 32 |
| Yes, I couldn't actually see Mansell being hit by Piquet
but he might have been. Apparently Nige declined to stay for
the whole of practice and pulled out of the race because the
car was set up for Prost (but didn't they have more than enough
time to change it before the second restart?). The question
now is whether he'll see the season out at Ferrari - I doubt it.
The star of the last few races for me has been Nannini. Always
a quick driver he now appears to be even quicker, yet is driving
with a great deal of control. I can't go along with Hunt's
very weird comments about not trying hard enough - rubbish.
Any driver could find 1.5 secs a lap if he desperately wanted
to, but at risk of going off the circuit, ruining tyres etc.
What's impressive is that Nannini manages to do it for
a great many successive laps, using every inch of the road
yet still under control. Really first class performances
lately and beating Piquet, who's no slouch if he tries.
The race seemed to me a somewhat disappointing affair
not helped by yet another Williams reliability debacle.
It seems that they have some problem with the engine which
whilst it doesn't cause a spectacular blowup surely sidelines
them. Maybe it's the engine management or suchlike, but there
certainly seems to have been a lot of very similar failures
going back a long time now.
Leyton House clearly better than Tyrrell again and winning
the race for those with 'customer' engines. Could be on the
way up in a big way with a lot more added power.
-John
|
837.781 | Could be clutch problems | IOSG::MITCHELL | Elaine | Wed Aug 29 1990 14:35 | 4 |
|
Maybe it was the clutch in the Williams cars which eventually gave up -
after having to do three starts, I'm not surprised!
|
837.782 | Williams gearbox problems | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Aug 29 1990 16:29 | 10 |
| Transverse gearbox problems (Williams, Brabham, etc)
Under the high cornering accelerations (4-5g) that most cars suffer
nowadays, the various components (linkages, synchromesh, ...) are
subject to high forces. Some boxes even change gears without driver
intervention ! I know that Ligier and AGS who use the X-TRAC box
have had to reverse to traditional boxes.
On the other hand McLaren have succeeded in building a reliable
box. The box is the Achille's heel of Williams today.
|
837.783 | Rumours-gossip-lies-fantasies | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Thu Aug 30 1990 10:09 | 39 |
| This week's driver stuff -
Secret tests at Fiorano featured a driver in a plain white helmet who
first-off fumbled for gears then got to within .5 sec of Prost. Pirelli
tyres were also rumoured to be involved. Caffi is the person most
widely rumoured to have been involved, but there is also a rumour that
it was actually Prost who didn't want to be seen on Pirelli's! Either
way, expect an announcement at Monza, subject to them clearing up
Mansell's contract. Prost is quoted as saying people will be surprised
at the name.
Alesi has said he will not be in a Williams next year, so presumably
its Ferrari or Tyrrell.
Williams most likely to retain Patrese, still trying Mansell. Another
possibility now that Camel are invovolved would be an ex-Lotus man.
Warwick states he's talking to 4 teams, 2 of which are podium
contenders (one probably Arrows). Boutsen is also still talking to
Arrows, who are being pressured by Porsche to take Teo Fabi. Porsche
engine being targetted for racing at Suzuka.
Paul Belmondo has signed an option with Osella (exciting eh?)
Apparently he and Grouillard used to be team-mates with ORECA in F3.
Ligier thought to have signed for Lambo engines next year now that
Renault have pulled out. This is thought to be bad news for Lotus and
Larrousse, and Lambo only want two teams, and Glas has already come up
with the necessary readies.
EuroBrun to pull-out next year?
Life took 50 minutes of Pre-qual trying to get the engine started at
Spa. This was supposedly trying to connect the air-bottle to the
starter!
So, after all the lengthy rumours about who goes where since Imola we
come back to the same old thing - driver line ups announced at Monza.
Paul
|
837.785 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Thu Aug 30 1990 12:41 | 23 |
| I may be wrong but I dont really understand why people rank Porsche
(in combination with Arrows) so highly. If I look at their immediate
past :
- F1: did a good job initially with the TAG development, then did not
react and were completed submerged with technical (electronics mostly)
problems. Lost a couple of titles
- CART: total flop in terms of engine as well as general approach
and strategy.
My view is that Porsche are taking no risks. They have selected ARROWS,
which is a team
- with LOTS of $$ (FOOTWORK)
- a relatively mediocre chassis
so that nobody will point fingers at them if the car does not work
too well in the beginning. Later on the vast amount of $$ will lead
to more development.
I personnally have no confidence in their success potential. I had
exactly the opposite view on Honda.
|
837.786 | Senna leading the pack | ULYSSE::FROST | | Fri Aug 31 1990 13:42 | 8 |
| Had a word with Ken Merrick this morn - he has posted practice times
(in Vogon news) and it appears Senna is again fastest although this
for me, is fairly unusual this early.
Prost had an accident when his throttle stuck (open?). Slight personal
damage says the press.
regards George Frost
|
837.787 | newsworthy | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Sep 04 1990 09:27 | 2 |
| Any news out of Monza?, times, events .....
|
837.788 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Sep 05 1990 09:42 | 8 |
| Problems at TYRRELL ?
Harvey Postlethwaite is reported to talk to Minardi-Ferrari
Jean-Claude Migeot is reported to talk to Ferrari on a possible
return (now that Barnard will not return)
If both engineers quit there must be a good reason. Or is it just
salary review time ?
|
837.789 | The tension is bearable! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Wed Sep 05 1990 10:22 | 9 |
| Ferrari are due to make their official announcement of Prost's No2 for
'91 this weekend. Alesi is still favourite (despite Uncle Ken *still*
syaing he's staying put) Jean has now definately sidelined Williams.
Other contenders at Maranello are Capelli and Caffi.
Williams could be in a spot of bother now with Renault having failed to
get either a superstar or a Frenchman!
Paul
|
837.790 | Any news? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Sep 05 1990 10:58 | 13 |
| Has anybody any information at all on the much vaunted Peugeot Team
effort for 91/92.
How is it progressing, will it be set up at Sochaux near Strasboug?
Will a test circuit become a possible contender for the Paul Ricard
empty slot?
What of the rumours of the all French, much bells and whistles, new
purpose built factory and circuit in the north of France (Normandie),
F1 team?
George Frost
|
837.791 | Not heard this one | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Wed Sep 05 1990 11:14 | 8 |
| As far as I am aware Peugeot have no current F1 plans, only the Rosberg
WSPC team. However, as WSPC is going 3.5L next year there will
obviously be F1 possibilites.
As for the all French team, maybe that's something Le Prof is lining up
for '92 when (if) he retires.
Paul
|
837.793 | Mercedes to enter F1 in 1993?? | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Thu Sep 06 1990 08:51 | 23 |
| And Mercedes are undertaking a 5 year study on motorsport which may
well include a move into F1 in 1993.
By the way, Monza testing times were topped by Senna who starts as
favourite. Both he and Prost shunted, the Prof quite badly when the
throttle stuck open. Times (this was last week's test) were :
Senna 1m 24.20s
Patrese 24.94s
Prost 25.19s
Alesi 25.83s
Boutsen 26.08s
Morbidelli 26.89s
Grouillard 26.99s
Capelli 27.09s
Gugelmin 27.16s
Martini 27.32s
Donnelly 27.32s
Larini 28.46s
Berger 28.68s
Moreno 31.74s
Colin
|
837.795 | Alesi for Life in 1995? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Sep 07 1990 09:22 | 15 |
| From this morning's Guardian (Without permission)
Ferrari go into their home GP at Monza this weekend locked in dispute
with Frank Williams over the services of Tyrrell driver Jean Alesi
(writes Alan Henry) "We are prepared to sit it out with Ferrari" said
Williams "and we hope that Jean decides to go where he said he would
go. On February 2nd we entered into a two year contract with him for
1991 and 1992 so we expect him to honour his contact."
FEBRUARY 2ND!!!!!!!!!!
What on earth would Williams have done if Patrese and Boutsen had
finished 1/2 in the championship?? This is getting extremely silly.
Paul
|
837.797 | y | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Fri Sep 07 1990 14:14 | 19 |
| As written before, Williams reckon Alesi signed for them long
ago. Alesi however says he doesn't want to drive for Williams.
It seems that not only is Tyrrell in line for a payoff for
releasing Alesi, so too now is Williams. By the time a genuine
purchaser is found the costs may have risen dramatically. Of
course it's all Alesi's fault, he reminds me more of Mansell
every week.
The performance of the Tyrrell car in qualifying is often
flattered by the Pirelli qualifiers, form not maintained in the
race. Furthermore on fast circuits it's now been overtaken by
the Leyton House which also uses a base level engine. Still
it must appear as a serious contender for next season with
the Honda V10 power even if it is a very twitchy machine.
Here's hoping for a great race in Italy.
-John
|
837.798 | Go Faster Pirelli's | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Sep 07 1990 15:25 | 16 |
| Agree about the Tyrrell, look at Naka's performance in Spa qualifying -
a few hundreths behind Alesi. That I put down totally to Pirelli tyres.
As for all the Alesi cr*p, it is not totally self induced, the
ludicrous cattle market for drivers has something to do with it, plus
the fact that, however good he is, Alesi is mega-fashionable at the
moment. There are several drivers of equal quality and more proven
ability who have been downgraded in the market after a bad season,
Capelli being the obvious current candidate.
Anyway, it should be a good race on Sunday with Ayrton after a first win
at Monza, particularly as Estoril and Jerez should favour Ferrari.
Nannini could be in the frame too, and Boutsen and Patrese have a few
points to prove to FW & co. All in all, it should be a good'un.
Paul
|
837.799 | A bit like drying paint... | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Sep 10 1990 09:43 | 46 |
| Well, my last note's prediction was a bit off! What a dull race. Apart
from Warwick's bit of aerobatics, it was just a cool, clinical display
by Ayrton as to why he is No1 in the world (that should send up some
sparks!!)
Alesi proved his immaturity again with a total b*lls up at the chicane,
Nigel seemed to have a duff car again in comparison to Prost, and the
Benettons and Williams's were very disappointing. Leyton House were
best of the rest until those **** Judd engines let out, and Donnelly
laid a smoke screen that most invasion armies would have been proud of!
Warwick's accident was chilling. I recently saw a clip of film of most
of Rindt's accident at almost the same spot (at the entry to
Parabolica if memory serves) and it didn't look anywhere near as severe
as yesterday's. Thank god for the carbon fibre tub and safety cells.
There was an awful moment on Saturday afternoon - we turned on the TV
to check the sports results to be greeted by Des Lynam referring to a
tragedy and we instantly thought something had happened at Monza. Of
course he was talking about the poor footballer at York but the moment and
Sunday were sharp reminders that things can go wrong. The sound of
Murray Walker's voice when he first saw the accident and then realised
it was Warwick was quite frightening.
Anyway, I hear JMB is at it again with new regulations for Imola next
year -
1 No diffusers - the underside to be completely flat, front to back
2 Smaller front & rear wings
3 Larger cockpit areas - sized for "Mr Average"
3 and probably 2 I can live with, as could the teams, but to try and
introduce 1 at this stage with next year's cars already well underway
seems crazy and very dictatorial. He also says he wants La Source
widened at Spa and wants to run an Oval World Championship with about 6
races in the US, Australia, Japan and Europe.
The paper this morning says Prost and Senna shook hands at yesterdays
press conference - I'll have to look at the highlights I recorded
afterall. That's a good sign, the avoidance of each other was getting
embarrassing.
Oh well, on to Iberia with Senna looking like he's got the title in the
bag. By the time they race in Portugal, we'll be on our way to Spain
for the Jerez race!
Paul
|
837.800 | Monza musings | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Mon Sep 10 1990 10:19 | 21 |
| I'm having real trouble entering this reply so...
1) Yes Alesi stuffed it. He should stay at Tyrrell another year, but
wasn't he exciting until he messed up. Hopefully he'll redeem himself
in Portugal.
2) Mansell IS getting second rate equipment, but he more-or-less said
that Berger couldn't expect the best after he announced he was off to
Mclaren last year, so why should Mansell expect it with Prost still in
the Championship race and him telling the world he won't drive for
Ferrari next year?
3) Warwick was VERY lucky. I remember him saying of Berger's crash at
Imola '10 years ago no-one would have worried about the fire. The crash
would have killed him'. I think the same is true of Warwick's crash.
Finally, I only saw the 'highlights' but it did look dull. This weekend
(as in two weeks time) I was watching some entertaining racing at
Thruxton!
Mark
|
837.801 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Mon Sep 10 1990 14:03 | 25 |
| Dreary race, even though the leading three cars were running
flat out from start to finish.
The new regulations, or at least what I've heard of them, seem
eminently reasonable to me. The elimination of diffuser type
undertrays is long overdue really and necessary to reduce cornering
speeds. Ground effect cars produced similar 4-5g cornering
forces as the current breed, and the same driver related problems
were being seen then. The regulation that abolished the venturi ducts
says that the bottoms of the cars have to be flat between the
wheels. Nothing was said about the extremities and soon, led by
Renault, cars had venturi type diffusers fitted under the engine/
gearbox. After 7 years of development the same cornering forces are
being reached as was the case before the centre section had to
be flat. Reducing downforce generally places more importance on
driver skills and leads to more entertaining races, it will also
make for simpler, cheaper cars since the cost of being state of
the art as regards undercar aerodynamics is enormous.
Rumour has it that Williams, having failed to get Senna or Mansell
and being resigned to not having Alesi (but perhaps a payoff
instead) are thinking about Brundle. Well I hope this one turns out
to be true, Brundle deserves a ride in a top car.
-John
|
837.802 | Principle-Fine, Practical-?? | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Sep 10 1990 14:25 | 12 |
| John,
Don't get me wrong, I feel that the drivers are getting a rough deal
with the cornering forces. What I object to is JMBs attitude of "this
is what I think, and of course FISA will agree, and by the way, throw
away your '91 designs, 'cos its all happening from Imola"
It would be more sensible to put them in place for '92, or at least to
have announced them earlier this year before next year's cars were so
advanced.
Paul
|
837.803 | What a snooooozer ZZZZZZzzzzzzz..... | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Mon Sep 10 1990 22:15 | 17 |
| Well I have to admit I was quite impressed with Mr. Warwick, there's
not to many drivers out there who would crash the way he did and
then run back to the pits to get into another car... very impressive.
As for Mr. Mansel, I think he has given up and is not interested
in fighting for a first place...any first place. Some say he may
have inferior equipment, if that is so then how does he get himself
to third and fourth place for the start. It's too bad really because
Ferrari would have had a chance at the constructors title if they
had two cars racing.....now it seems that Prost has to do it by
himself.
On the positive side...it's nice to see Senna maturing as a driver,
I think he learned alot form Prost...even if he won't admit to it.
Regards,
FCGT
|
837.804 | He doesn't want to stick on 13! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Tue Sep 11 1990 09:37 | 19 |
| Dear FCGT
For all his faults Nigel is not a quitter, and I'm sure he would take
great exception to your comments. He has publicly stated that he will
do everything in his power to support Prost. The given reason for his
lacklustre performance on Sunday was a throttle that was slow to colose
giving a sort of reverse turbo lag effect.
The simple reason why he can get into 3rd or 4th is that even a second
rate Ferrari is better than a Benetton or a Williams at the moment.
It is a widely held view that Ferrari have been generally unable to
prepare two competitive cars - look at Berger last year. Ferrari's both
finishing strongly in races is quite rare.
I just think its a shame that Ferrari picked Prost to get behind, when
the Tifosi clearly want Mansell!
Paul
|
837.805 | Cannot agree number .804! | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Sep 11 1990 12:52 | 18 |
| Paul,
I really do disagree with every point that you have made.... but
thats what we are discussing in the notes files.
Last point only - the tifosi are not looking for a personality in a
Ferrari, they only support the sucessful driver. It is the car that
is sacrosanct.
Mansell is not winning... has not won in anything for a long looong
time even though he was top dog at Ferrari. When the 641/2 was first
tested it was Mansell's choice and he still has not done well enough
to have the continued support of the fans.
Certainly, he was more popular that his co-driver at the start of the
season but not any more. That is the impression I get when talking to
the Italian fans on my quite frequent trips over there.
regards George Frost
|
837.806 | Each to his own... | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Tue Sep 11 1990 13:05 | 10 |
| George
The banners I saw on Sunday looked far more pro Mansell than Prost,
Mansell is more their "style" of driver than Prost who of course was
also one of the dreaded McLaren-ites.
Anyway, if an Italian is in the second seat next year he'll get the
Tifosi well and truely on their side.
Paul
|
837.807 | Some opinion pse? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Sep 11 1990 14:16 | 34 |
| I would love to see Caffi (1st choice), or Capelli in there, though as
I said in an earlier note, it will mean a fairly long and relatively
quiet '91 season for Ferrari.
Yes Paul that would pull them in!.
btw. I recall a much earlier discussion about the Digital logo on the
'90 car. I was given a poster last week and the Digital logo appears
on the vertical stabiliser surface of the front wing. My poster shows
views of both sides of the car but the logo only appears on the left
view.
An annotation on the poster reads, "La Ferrari corre con la
collaborazione di: Agip, Arexons, Brembo, Digital, Fiat, Goodyear,
Marlboro, Magneti Marelli-Weber, Riv-Skf, Sabelt, Speedline."
i.e sponsors.
Hypothetical question that I would like some opinion from the noters.
I predicted poor(er) performance for the McLaren team at mid-season for
a number of factors.
For a while there it looked right with the second places and then the
three straight wins by Ferrari. McLaren have come back with a vengeance.
The answer must lie with the cars not specifically the drivers or to a
larger extent the circuits. If that is so (and McLaren and Williams
consistantly out accelerate the Ferrari), what have McLaren done to
thier cars?
George Frost
|
837.808 | Ivan deserves it....Sob, sob | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Tue Sep 11 1990 14:34 | 26 |
| I have mixed emotions about who should drive the second scarlet car
next year. Caffi would be a good second string, but no more, Capelli
deserves it far more than most of the names mentioned but then he would
be gone from Leyton House just when we get a decent engine. According
to a contact at Leyton House who got back from Monza today, the Italian
press on Monday was full of Nannini for Ferrari stories.
As long as its not Alesi I don't really care anymore. Alesi just
doesn't deserve it yet, I still believe that driving for the ghost of
the Old Man should be an honour, and that's the last thing that Alesi
and his advisors have shown this season.
As for McHonda's resurgence, I think its down to a few things. Firstly,
the mid season is mostly about power circuits, and Honda have clearly
dragged out somemore BHP from the V10. Secondly, Ayrton has been very
shrewd with his tyre choices, consistently getting it right (except
Silverstone maybe) Thirdly, as Patrick says, I have been very impressed
with their brakes. They seem to be able to go much deeper into corners
than the competition. Finally, they can prepare two competitve cars,
which means that Prost has to worry about Senna and Berger. Mansell has
been an also-ran due to poor machinery.
I must be honest tho' and wonder what would have happened had Williams
had a *real* star rather than two hard triers?
Paul
|
837.809 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Tue Sep 11 1990 14:38 | 24 |
| The McLaren more than any other car relies on engine power
for it's performance. It doesn't have much in the way of a
straight line speed advantage since they run larger wings
for added downforce instead. Compare the extent of wing on
the Mclaren with the other cars, particualrly Benetton. A head
on shot gives the clearest indication.
They seem to have got even more power lately thanks it appears
to a new brew of fuel which allows them to reprogram the
engine management/make detail engine changes. They're not the
only team that's gaining an advantage here. The only leading team
which , according to a magazine report, isn't using these new
fuel brews is Tyrrell. There has been talk over many years of
standardising on the fuel and having all tha cars run on the
same stuff, but the fuel companies who invest money are against
this and argue that it would stultify development.
Incidently, re Italy, it was a particularly bad race for Lotus
since they had their best qualifying performance of the season
and were much closer on times to the leaders than they have been.
The Beeb also said that they have lost the Lambo engines for next
season so what will they use?.
-John
|
837.810 | Swat pesky Patrese | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Sep 11 1990 14:44 | 11 |
| Forgot to add that Patrese really is showing his true colours now that
he is coming to the end of his career.
That bum spent all his time (as he did in Hungary and Spa) holding back
everybody possible including his own team mate Boutsen.
Somebody should hold back his paycheck! he is being paid too much.....
.......by somebody.
George Frost
|
837.811 | | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Tue Sep 11 1990 15:59 | 18 |
| Re: 804...
As I had not heard anything about a malfunctioning throttle I must
apologize for calling Mansell a quitter (heat of the moment and
all that....). I guess I just want Ferrari to win.... it all.
There would be nothing more pleasing than to see the Ferrari's win
another 1-2 (as I had predicted earlier) and who knows there are
still 4 more races.
And yes I do agree that a second rate Ferrari is MUCH better than
any Benetton or Williams (at the present time).
Here's to Ferrari getting TWO cars to the next race and Ferrari
taking another 1-2 finish.
Regards and no bad feelings intended,
FCGT
|
837.812 | Short but quick | ULYSSE::COLLINS | Russ, 828-5371, Valbonne | Tue Sep 11 1990 17:25 | 8 |
| I'm not much of an Alesi fan, but he _was_ doing pretty well (for his
version of a whole race). The TMC announcers mumbled something about
Alesi probably having to go in for tire change because he was running
soft tires. It turned out that he didn't need the tire change after
all. How was he able to move so quickly? Just suicidal 10.1-tenths
sprint driving? Soft tires (sorry, tyres)? Other?
russ
|
837.813 | He needs taking aside and reminding of reality | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Tue Sep 11 1990 17:41 | 18 |
| IMHO....
Alesi was running usual soft Pirelli tyres and driving at 11/10ths to
impress his possible employers by blowing-off their current drivers. In
the end all he managed to to was look stupid and over-keen.
He also had two *major* moments in practice coming onto the straight
before the Parabolica (at the 2nd Lesmo?) when he just over-cooked it,
clipped the curbs and ended up heading for the barriers head-on at some
speed. Fortunately for him he gathered it up, but he seems to be
driving beyond the limits of the Tyrrell at the moment.
If Naka could get home 6th after all the messing about, Alesi should
have been able to keep it on the island to finish 3rd or 4th.
Paul
|
837.814 | THe Drivers - an everyday story of wealthy folk | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Wed Sep 12 1990 09:17 | 36 |
| A digest off Ceefax, The Guardian and Motoring News...
Nannini will be confirmed this week as the Ferrari No2 for 1991.
Apparently his Benetton deal didn't cover $$$$ (say what!!!!??) and
what is now on offer doesn't tie up with his perception of what a No1
driver (which is what he thinks he is over Piquet) deserves.
Also leaving Bicester is Rory Byrne who jumps to the new Reynard set
up, which is also thought to be trying for a Nissan V12 engine.
Benetton replacements are numerous, but one who may be firming up
elsewhere include Modena at Modena (nee Glas). Other names mentioned
are Caffi, Warwick & Donnelly the Camel men, Capelli (who turned them
down last year), Brundle, Boutsen and PL Martini. There is even
speculation that Ford will bring over Michael Andretti who still hasn't
signed a new CART contract.
Pirro looks certain to be out of a job at Dallara while de Cesaris
stays (HOW!!!!)
Lambo engines confirmed for 2 car teams at Ligier and Modena and a 1
car Osella line up.
Arrows likely to race the Porsche at Suzuka, Warwick is probably no
longer interested in a drive there but Boutsen is
Wild rumour (I hope dear God, I hope) Daddy Foitek seen talking to Ian
Phillips at Monza - Gregor for Leyton House if Capelli goes?? Please
No!
On the Alesi front, it seems to me that he now has a very hard choice
between two teams that both think he's got great potential but is a
right ******* His working relationships are going to be interesting
next year!
Paul
|
837.815 | On this and that | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Wed Sep 12 1990 09:26 | 42 |
| I guess if you're not an established star you drive just that
little bit harder - got to get noticed somehow. I thought it was
classic that he repeated EXACTLY the same manoevres on the second start
as he performed the first time (I thought I was seeing a reply for a
few seconds), taking Mansell pulling off the grid and Prost approaching
the first chicane. Thought one of them might have twigged it second
time around. Semms that the Ferrari's complicated gearchange
arrangement (which has cost them several races over the last two years)
is not worth much at all - it's great advantage was always supposed to
be allowing quicker gearchanges up through the box (such as pulling
away from the line).
I agree with earlier comments that there is nothing Mansell would
like better than to be able to blow everyone off and go out with a
couple of wins under his belt. I guess his feeling is also that if they
can't give him the equipment to do that then why should he put his
balls on the line.
I think McLaren's superiority in recent years has been down to
three things that other teams could also have if theu tried : TWO
top-line drivers ; a most professional organisation ; and superior
engine power. The rest of them is just ordinary!
read a recent article that BP F1 fuels have no additives other than
those used in pump fuels (maybe in different proportions, mind!).
Thought the Italian G.P. was a little boring as far as lack of
place swapping but fascinating from the point of view of 100% effort by
the world's top drivers. It's a bit like going to the circus : the
tightrope stuff you've seen 1001 times before so if the guy doesn't
fall off it's just ordinary while in reality he/she is performing
something that few could emulate. So it was with this race. The
difference between the aspiring greats and the truly greats was the
difference between Senna/Berger/Prost/Mansell's lap record-smashing
laps engaged in high-speed stalemate and Alesi's (and Warwick's) slight
overcooking it.
I hope the last four races allow the Capelli's, Alesi's, Nannini's
and Boutsen's of this world a closer look in while Prost takes some
points from Senna so that we get a "down to the wire" situation again.
Colin
|
837.816 | | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Wed Sep 12 1990 11:50 | 14 |
|
>> read a recent article that BP F1 fuels have no additives other than
>> those used in pump fuels (maybe in different proportions, mind!).
saw something similar; F1 cars are supposed to run on fuel available on
the forecourt; but at the time of this rule 5star was available: hence
the use of additives to fuels these days
can't remember where i read that (CCC maybe), don't know if its true or not
anyone else know more about this?
...art
|
837.817 | Stewart drove a Ford for years | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Sep 17 1990 10:40 | 6 |
| I don't know if the rest of Europe is running this (there is a tendency
to run ads concurrently in the appropriate language) but I saw a Honda
Accord, a flash of a Mclaren and a voice overlay saying that the man
who runs this car is ..... Gerhard Berger.
George Frost
|
837.818 | | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Tue Sep 18 1990 16:04 | 7 |
| Well it looks like the #2 spot at Ferrari is still open..any
takers... :-)
I wonder if they might still bring Michael Andreti over from the
states, (I don't think he has resigned for CART yet.)
Any ideas now that Nannini is not going to Ferrari????
|
837.819 | Why did Sandro say 'NO!'. | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Tue Sep 18 1990 16:14 | 16 |
|
Why do the assemblage of noters think Nannini turned down the chance
to drive for Ferrari? Does the 'team of the future' bit ring true?
Personally, I think he made the right decision. Right now a bad year
at Ferrari would kill Sandro's career dead, but another impressive one
with Benneton could put him amongst the very top drivers.
Is Alesi RIGHT out of the running for the Ferrari drive now? As an
outsider what about Patrese? He was high on Ferrari's list before
they took on Prost, he's Italian (something they seem keen on),
can afford a bad season with Ferrari ('coz' he can't have many seasons
racing in front of him) and doesn't seem to have the prima-donna
attitude of most of the other top drivers.
Mark
|
837.820 | | WFOV11::DOBOSZ_M | Cole's Law: Slice Cabbage Thinly... | Tue Sep 18 1990 17:56 | 9 |
| Re: Note 837.819 by CRATE::SAXBY "Time to say something contentious!"
� Why do the assemblage of noters think Nannini turned down the chance
� to drive for Ferrari?
Perhaps it was due to the rumors of Senna wanting to go to Ferrari after
Prost leaves at the end of 1991.
Mike
|
837.821 | It's final! | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | The opposite of Macho is Bimbo | Wed Sep 19 1990 00:05 | 18 |
| If Prost finishes the season within 15 points of Senna, as seems
likely given the courses left, I think he'll have established once
and for all that he's the better driver:
1) As #2 driver with retro equipage he goes a 1-1 split with Senna
despite all the chopping and cheating.
2) The job swap this past silly season nails it down how far ahead
of Berger Alain is (Berger has settled into the stalking horse
role as Alain never would).
3) With much more bhp and reliability Senna's proven unable to run
away from Prost this year, even despite Berger crashing Prost
wherever possible and LeProf's rotten racing luck throughout.
Nice try, I-Hear-A-Taunt, but Le Petit Professeur est numbero un.
MrT
|
837.822 | F like Ferrari, and like French ! | YIPPEE::FILHOL | Where are we ? | Wed Sep 19 1990 10:22 | 11 |
| It is now official that #2 driver at FERRARI will be :
Mister Jean ALESI !
So many things to say about that...
Ferrari must have given a lot of $ to get him from Tyrrel AND Williams.
Prost must be for something, even if he will never say that.
That is the chance of Alesi' life to pass a least one year with the
best driver of the world !
Bruno
|
837.823 | | LISVAX::BRITO | | Wed Sep 19 1990 10:23 | 12 |
| � Nice try, I-Hear-A-Taunt, but Le Petit Professeur est numbero un.
The only number 1 to be seen on the Ferrari is the one Prost got while
driving the Mchonda :-) and with the help of JMB!!! No wonder that Nanini
didn't want to drive for Ferrari. Ferrari has been a talent killer for the
last years. Ask Alboretto... Mansell. In my opinion Ferrari lives on
the reputation it got in the good old days. And you just wait for the
v12 from Honda.
Regards,
RUI
|
837.824 | Alesi at Ferrari. At Tyrrell? | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Wed Sep 19 1990 10:25 | 10 |
|
Apparently Ferrari gave Williams an F1 car 'as a gift' as they didn't
ask for financial compensation for losing Alesi to Ferrari.
Only time will tell if Jean has made the right decision.
Any idea who'll take over his (Honda powered) drive at Tyrrell? That's
got to be a plum drive for someone.
Mark
|
837.826 | This custard | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Sep 19 1990 11:56 | 23 |
| What a dummy you are RUI.
Prost won his first of three titles long before JMB came on the scene
and before Senna became a serious challenger.
Prost got his other two driving the best car in the world head to head
with Senna.
When Senna gets anywhere near the total number of F1 wins that Prost
has I will begin to take note of your whimperings. Senna is good and I
don't knock him to spite anyone.
Your opinion is that Senna is the best and the car is the best .. good
for you, we all can see the merit in your opinion, but in the same breath
you badmouth Prost and JMB to sustain that argument.
You are actually doing a disservice to Senna. Why bring him into it
when you want to criticise something or someone else?
Never heard of objective discussion? or do you knock to get heard?
George Frost
|
837.827 | Good for ? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Sep 19 1990 12:13 | 17 |
| I heard Alesi interviewed on the radio this morn.
No not French press reporting, real radio and Jean Alesi actually
speaking.
He said (verbatim) that he believed that Prost was the best, certainly
for him (Alesi) at this time. He would be able to draw on the
accumulated experience etc etc etc. Looked forward to an exellent 91.
This has to be fantastic for Alesi - start of career, Ferarri
contenders for the title, leave the year after if you dont like it
although the last has to be fatuous.
Some of the best have come out of Ferarri in the last 10 to 12 years,
Guess RUI.
Personally I don't think the two will hit it off.
George Frost
|
837.828 | BOTH Lotus drivers can't Tyrell. Boutsen ? | NATASH::COUGHLIN | | Wed Sep 19 1990 15:50 | 17 |
| re .825
Unless Ken Tyrell decides to run 3 cars (which I doubt), he can't have BOTH
Lotus drivers. Ken's Honda power is contingent upon keeping Nakajima. Ken has
traditionally brought along up & coming drivers; if Ken's consistent, he would
NOT pick the older, experienced Warwick. A Martin Donnely choice would be more
consistent. Since Ken's got a chance to rise to the "big time" again with the
Honda engine, I doubt he'd choose someone completely green (e.g. from F3000)
this time - why risk the opportunity?
So, why wouldn't Ken pick Thiery Boutsen? He's pretty quick, somewhat
experienced, good in the rain and medium age (didn't he just turn 30?). Thiery
is probably motivated right now to show Frank William's decision to release
Thiery to be poor judgement. So, Thiery Boutsen might get the bit in his teeth
next year.
/Mick Coughlin
|
837.829 | | DOOZER::JENKINS | | Wed Sep 19 1990 15:53 | 14 |
|
Re .826
�for you, we all can see the merit in your opinion, but in the same breath
�you badmouth Prost and JMB to sustain that argument.
Anyone who badmouths JMB is ok by me.
I heard this morning, that in return for Alesi, Ferrari gave the
remaining year of Mansells contract to Williams.
Maybe Nige won't be drawing his pension after all?
|
837.830 | what's he done anyway? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Sep 19 1990 16:10 | 5 |
| re. previous couple
I have my opinion of JMB too, but not at the expense of other F1 folk.
George Frost
|
837.831 | | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | The opposite of Macho is Bimbo | Wed Sep 19 1990 16:14 | 21 |
| I think they'll get on fine, Alesi the bright understudy with Alain
the teacher - after all, he *is* le professeur :^) ... (Remember, with
only Senna and Berger McHonda's had much more trouble getting the dated
MP4 chassis set up for races this year.)
And RUI, Balestre did nothing but belatedly insist that Senna get on
the same rule book as the people he was running off the road. True,
Prost finally retaliated in kind, but that was only just.
Senna is overrated cuz he's made his mark driving the most dominant
car ever using the first ever unique rule book. He's good, but he's
overrated at this point IMNSHO.
But, RUI, you're right about what Honda's V-12 portends. Hope I'm
wrong, but my prediction is that the '91 season will have all the
competitiveness of '88, with Senna perhaps winning 12-14 races. The
Constructor's won't be run away with quite as badly, though, cuz with
Berger in place of Prost the 2 car will crash and encounter tire
problems and all the usual Gehard woes.
MrT
|
837.832 | | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | The opposite of Macho is Bimbo | Wed Sep 19 1990 16:22 | 18 |
| Whatever happened to Johnny Herbert? I saw a blurb in AutoWeek awhile
back that said he'd beat everybody in a pre-Monza test in, I think,
a Ferrari. Are his feet still that screwed up? He seemed like a fine
talent, and it's not like the F3000 is burgeoning with budding superstars
right now.
Also, I hear there's an 18 year old German who's being hailed as the
next Senna. Any word on him?
Carroll Shelby, the American road racing guru, was interviewed on ESPN
during the Spa pre-race, and when asked about the state of F1 he had
some harsh words about the overall quality of drivers in the series,
making some pointed comments about "millionaire's kids" getting rides
based on their nationality or their dad's willingness to cough up the
dough. Sad thing is, for every Nakajimi or Danner there's a Johnny
Herbert sitting on the sidelines...
MrT
|
837.833 | | LISVAX::BRITO | | Wed Sep 19 1990 16:41 | 8 |
| RE:.826
George, after reading carefully your replies I felt like labeling you
the same way you did to me in .826! But I won't. Anyway, I will remind you
that to the best of my knowledge this isn't a topic only for those who are
fans of Prost or that are Ferraristas.
RUI
|
837.834 | Alesi for Mansell? | OASS::BURDEN_D | He's no fun, he fell right over | Wed Sep 19 1990 17:27 | 8 |
| What was that bit about Ferrari giving Mansell to Williams in trade for Alesi?
I don't understand it, does that mean Mansell will be driving for Williams
this year or next year or.....?
Also, Alesi only has a 1 year contract with Ferrari, might this be a way to
keep '92 open so if Senna gets the ride he gets to choose his teammate?
Dave
|
837.835 | | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | Bush's lips: Know new taxes! | Wed Sep 19 1990 17:35 | 6 |
| The young German star's name is Karl Vedlinger (sp?). And I was wrong,
he's not in F3000 but is a co-pilot with Schlesser and Baldi et al in
the Silver Arrow. He's 18 and apparently very very fast. I wonder if
he's bucking for a F1 ride.
MrT
|
837.836 | Wendlinger, the next Senna?Ho, ho, ho! | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Wed Sep 19 1990 17:41 | 9 |
|
Wendlinger DOES drive in F3000 (but doesn't make much impression).
Let's face it, you or I would probably have trouble NOT winning in
a C-11.
Next Senna? Not unless he's hiding his light under a very dense bush.
Mark
|
837.837 | jest checkin' | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | Bush's lips: Know new taxes! | Wed Sep 19 1990 18:11 | 4 |
| Sorry. I'd gotten that report on Karl from a Senna-ite who touted
him as such. Never mind :^) ...
MrT
|
837.838 | My opinions, for what they are worth! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Thu Sep 20 1990 08:52 | 50 |
| My opinions, for what they are worth (and trying to be a bit more
constructive than some of the recent replies!!!) :
* Senna rivals Prost as the best driver in the world at present.
Each has beaten the other in straight fights in similar equipment. They
are undoubtedly the best two around although they have vastly different
styles.
* I think Senna will come close (at least) to beating Prost's
record number of wins - he's on the way...
* Prost is still very much more the "thinking driver", ie planning
a bit further ahead than the next corner. His overall ambition is to
win the championship and he will compromise on occasion in order (in
his mind) to reach that ultimate goal.
* Senna is getting better at it but is not in the same league as
Prost for planning strategies. He has a remarkable gift to be totally
at one in the harsh environment in which he "lives" (ie the cockpit)
and can, therefore, produce remarkable performances which nobody else
can come close to (eg his Monza pole lap) - not even Prost
* A also agree that McLaren are having an increasingly harder time
keeping the competitive edge. Maybe this has something to do with
Prost's defection but I believe Senna sets his car up quite well (and
very differently to Prost). McLaren has for years used superior grunt
to make ordinary chassis look good - that margin has been steadily and
constantly eroded and their superiority is now chiefly due to Senna.
* I know the V12 will be there next year but I don;t think it will
put them back in the position they enjoyed with the current engine when
that was introduced.
* I hope Alesi has a year of learning and does not go b***s out to
beat them all every time out - he is in danger of injuring himself if
he tries.
* Mansell WILL retire at the end of the season. He may go WSPC or
he *may* be back in F1 later on but not in '91.
* Tyrrell could do a lot better than Boutsen. I agree, there is a
lot of talent lurking around - Donnelly, Capelli, Modena to name but a
few - which are all future winners. Boutsen is quite "ordinary" - good
on his day but not what World Champions are made of. I think the same
of Warwick, although you may agree to differ.
That's me lot. Now blow me away!
Colin
|
837.839 | | ULYSSE::COLLINS | Russ, 828-5371, Valbonne | Thu Sep 20 1990 09:03 | 15 |
| re .838
Colin, for once I agree with your comments on Senna and Prost (no chain
pulling?). Senna has been getting to be more of a 'thinking' driver
this season. Perhaps he learned something from Prost. It's a bit of a
problem for me: I want Senna to win the title, but I _liked_ his
first-place-or-nothing style that he seems to be getting over.
Alesi: I believe he'll try too hard next season to show everyone how
great he his. He'll take out Prost with dangerous passing, crash or
spin out often. He can do a few brilliantly fast laps, but he's not up
to doing a race distance on the edge. If he survives another year he
might become good.
russ
|
837.840 | Brundle for Tyrrell. | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Thu Sep 20 1990 09:52 | 17 |
|
Personally, I think it would be interesting to see Martin Brundle back
in a Tyrrell.
In F3 he was the easy match of Ayrton Senna (in fact the way the races
were split it's tempting to say he drove better to make up such a large
first half season deficit caused by an inferior car), but since then
his F1 career has been dogged by second-rate equipment (fortunately
his Group C equipment has been a bit better) and it would be nice to
see if, given a good handling, powerful car, he could perform as well
as Senna does (of course the Tyrrell's unlikely to BEAT McLaren's too
often - can you see Honda letting Mugen beat IT's team with IT's old
engine?).
Mark
|
837.841 | e vero | ULYSSE::FROST | | Thu Sep 20 1990 14:43 | 21 |
| Good constructive, well thought out comments from Colin and Russ, with
whom I agree to a point.
Re: F1 wins. Assuming Prost stays another season, and assuming then
that Senna continues three more seasons after Prost, Senna will have to
win approx (correction if necessary pse) 20 F1 in three seasons.
'91 won't count since Prost will be in there winning his share.
That leaves '92, '93, '94 at 6 per year. Yes it can be done but will be
very difficult.
My last point in my last note about the Alesi comment was not intended
as compliment to Prost. It was intended as a meaningful remark made by
one F1 driver of another, albeit French.
Since the publicised handshake between Senna and Prost I have been
waiting on some developing interface (verbal) between the two.
I'm sure guarded compliments will start soon.
regards George Frost
|
837.842 | | SALMON::SHAUGHNESSY | the opposite of Macho is Bimbo | Thu Sep 20 1990 16:39 | 29 |
| .826>>What a dummy you are RUI.
Is this kind of crap at all necessary in this file? RUI's entitled
to his opinion, and to not being subjected to such pubescent personal
insults. Take it to the Child Care note.
re: Senna vs. Prost
I gag a bit every time people start making comparisons based on
unadjusted statistics between the two. At Monza, where we got the
obligatory two starts, each time Prost's car was so slow that he was
passed not only by Berger but by Alesi! Having lost the drag race
to Berger and despite being quicker in the corners, Prost had to
eat dirty air and its consequent tire-scrubbing understeer for 21
laps before he had a chance to being chasing Senna. Once he got in
the open, Senna had the advantage cuz he'd sat there smiling into
his rear view mirror nursing his tires.
The point being that one must deduct from Senna his huge tire
advantage, not to mention the fact that Berger has apparently lost
all pride and has accepted being relegated to the role of team
stalking horse.
I think Senna has a very good chance to catch Prost's record, and
for one reason: the forthcoming Honda V-12. McHonda could prove
to be the most dominant car ever next year.
MrT
|
837.843 | no contest | ULYSSE::FROST | | Fri Sep 21 1990 12:53 | 42 |
| Gag some more Mr.T. Like you I have opinions.
One of my opinions is that it is not necessary to knock one driver at
the expense of another (or imply that a non-participant of this notes
conference is "on the take") simply to get a point accross.
Hence Dummy. If you prefer the word "crap" perhaps you are more grown up
than I am.
re: Senna vs. Prost
I have opinions on the Great Drivers in motor racing and classify them
by available statistics.
One of the statistics is F1 races won in a career. To date there is a
leader - Prost. When he retires his total will be "adjusted" in the minds of
many and he will be compared to Lauda, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Fangio,
Hawthorne, Villeneuve, Am and other brilliants that I have not mentioned.
As will Senna.
But two of the best are now racing and we don't have hindsight. There is a
continuing healthy debate on who is the better of the two, and I feel
happy to give my opinion race by race and in some cases with a bit of
foreknowledge, before a race.
I enjoy and have a limited knowledge of the technology discussed in
this conference, I am not too keen on the media hype but do follow it
like most of us, I get very involved with lap times, speeds, fuels,
engines, chassis, tracks and driver comparisons. That is why I am
participating in this conference.
RUI or Mr.T, if you find dummy insulting go ahead keep shooting me down
- its all in the debate and frankly I do not find it at all
insulting.
To Portugal and Spain: I know nothing of the next two circuits other
than previous results and what has been presented in the media.
On that basis I anticipate a very good result from Ferrari, Tyrrel and
Williams, anything less than a win not being a good result for
Mclaren.
George Frost
|
837.844 | Ferrari | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Fri Sep 21 1990 14:15 | 32 |
| Ferrari haven't won the world championship since 79, and now
seem to be struck with panic about buying success but not
necessarily in the most effective manner. Bearing in mind
that the car doesn't carry sponsorship and that the real
contributors, Fiat, only gets scant mention it must say
something for the passionate interest of the Italian public.
Once they nearly got it right by getting John Barnard in and
then just as this was showing success (the car won races) he
was off again for reasons never particualrly clear. Throwing
vast amounts of money at drivers isn't the way to win, no
driver can make up for the deficiencies in the car, and Ferrari
seem to be placing all of their eggs in the driver basket
nowadays.
This year with the aftermath of Barnards work still showing
it's effects and Prost at the wheel they have what could be
their best chance for sometime but it doesn't look as if they'll
make it. The use of such a practised non-finisher as Mansell
ruled out any chance of the constructors championship even
before it started.
I see Ferrari slipping back next year, and once they start
slipping it may well become a very steep slide too. If there
are changes in the regulations as expected the car will have to
be thought out again and I feel sure there are many more capable
of doing this than the Ferrari team people.
Anyway I hope Prost wins in Spain and Portugal or at least
gains a lot of ground on Senna for a good showdown.
-John
|
837.845 | Y Viva Espana | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Sep 21 1990 14:48 | 29 |
| Well, a last entry before heading off to see some real racing as
opposed to the TV variety.
I reckon that Portugal and Spain will see a bit of a Ferrari revival,
but equally, I'd be surprised if Prost closed the gap by more than 5 or
6 points as Ayrton will be up there too. I'd also expect closer racing
on these two slower circuits. Maybe Alesi can celebrate the weight off
his mind by finishing a race in the points, and driving with a bit more
control ;-)
As for the Alesi to Ferrari cr*p, I hope Prost blows him away next
season. Alesi needs a year learning from someone like Prost, both on
and off the track. However, I still think that Ferrari will do the
usual "let the first few races determine the #1" bit, as I still don't
reckon they can prepare two cars.
Senna will win the championship this year, of that I have little doubt,
but I don't reckon that the V12 will be such a massive advantage. If
diffusers *do* totally go away McLaren could struggle to get sufficient
downforce to harness the power, plus its reported to be a bit thirsty
as well.
Anyway, Jerez here we come, with diversions to Thruxton to see "Super
Robb" Gravett win the overall BTCC title, and a farewell at Silverstone
to say goodbye to the RS500s and the two Mika's.
See you all in a couple of weeks.
Paul
|
837.846 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain... | Sun Sep 23 1990 21:47 | 13 |
| RE: .844
John, Mansell was not an "accomplished non-finisher" until the last three
seasons - Judd engined Williams, and 2 seasons at Ferrari. Before that, I would
have said that his record was one of the best.
Please try to be as objective with Mansell as you are in all other aspects of
your Formula 1 analysis - which is invariably well thought out and
entertaining!
Cheers
Steve
|
837.847 | I see red.. | SKIWI::EATON | Marketing - the rubber meets the sky | Mon Sep 24 1990 00:55 | 15 |
| Ferrari 1 and 3. Senna 2nd. Pity Prost was 3rd. It seems that the championship
is sewn up for Senna now. Nice to see Mansell throw off his "loser" image
though....
I do get a bit tired of people unilateraly declaring McLaren the better car. On
the results of this season, it clearly isn't. It is more of a compromise car
than the Ferrari. I love watching the Ferrari handling on tight circuits.
I also respectively suggest that Ferrari is/was a lot more than Barnard and
expensive drivers. I also get a bit tired of the "if it's got 12 cylinders,
and is a Honda, it's going to blow the competition away". There is nothing
"magic" about having 12 cylinders. There are some very competitive 8 cylinders
around as well...
Well, got that off my chest.
|
837.848 | Prost under the steam ! | YIPPEE::FILHOL | Where are we ? | Mon Sep 24 1990 09:52 | 3 |
| Do you have the results of the yesterday race ?
Please ,give them before the comments !
Bruno
|
837.849 | The best for many a year | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Sep 24 1990 10:46 | 39 |
| As I saw it;
Mansell let both McLarens through at the start. For me it was
deliberate - tactics? pique?.....
Prost clearly was fastest on this circuit, he took everyone including
his team mate??? who couldn't resist going farming again. Tyre
changes and once again Prost lost valuable seconds.
He came through the pack (from 8 secs behind Senna), again and repeated his
previous performance of passing all... to third place.
Eight laps to go and Prost was verrry comfortable within 1 second of
Senna and ready to pass him. Mansell was about 3 seconds ahead. No
opposition in sight.
Fastest lap times during the last ten or so laps were almost exclusively
Prost.
A Ferarri day, a Prost day, pity about Mansell winning in such bad
spirit. I would have liked him to win properly.
A bad day for McLaren. They were after all both passed when leading the
race.
A bad day for any other opposition.
A superb race full of tension to the end.
I have not mentioned Capelli or was it Caffi who was injured?, because
coverage seemed to indicate that he was not seriously injured.
Has anybody got any news in this score.
Other sad news; two riders (one German one French) were killed in the
Bol d'Or endurance race at Paul Ricard on Saturday night, five injured.
Does anybody have any news on the first time out performance of the
Peugeot 904 in Montreal?
Regards George Frost
|
837.850 | | OVAL::GUEST_N | Nowhere at all.... | Mon Sep 24 1990 11:41 | 6 |
|
What was that about Mansell winning in bad spirit ?
Did he say something after the race ?
Nigel
|
837.851 | Mansell and WSPC Canada. | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Mon Sep 24 1990 11:47 | 20 |
|
Caffi is reported as not badly hurt - suspected cracked bone in his
ankle.
Re Peugeot 905 (not 904) the car didn't qualify well and disappeared
from the race (don't know how well it was doing at the time). The race
was stopped short after a manhole cover was plucked from the track(!)
and caused a multiple crash and a 'fireball' (Ceefax's word) of Jesus
Pareja Porsche (fortunately he was unscathed).
Re Mansell's start - Odd tactics! From the head on shot he appeared to
be trying to put his teammate in the pit wall (I hope it was a
misleading angle!). Still, nice to see him go to the end of a race and
not give up at the first sign of a little problem. This was more like
the Mansell we used to know, rather than the whining moaner of recent
months.
Anyone else think all this back-patting in F1 is a little insincere?
Mark
|
837.852 | Who said that !! | IJSAPL::CAMERON | I rode on the roads in Rhodes | Mon Sep 24 1990 12:19 | 6 |
| Well I don't know how sincere the back-patting really was, but I
almost dropped my half litre when I heard Mansell saying nice
things about Senna !
Gordon
|
837.853 | Senna's to blame :-) | NSDC::SIMPSON | Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain... | Mon Sep 24 1990 13:44 | 18 |
| Apparently (lacking facts, most of my notes start with this word these days!),
Senna started it - on Saturday he came over and congratulated Mansell on a
superb lap.
Snippets from the Swiss paper today:
- Mansell says that his car left the line sideways, scrabbling for grip -
there was nothing that he could do about it. From the hints in this
notesfile, it looks like he got pretty close to Prost - I'll make my own
mind up when I've seen it!
- Prost was furious about his car yesterday. Complaining about lack of
professionalism in the preparation, and how if things didn't improve, he
would have to re-consider his position at the end of the season....
Cheers
Steve
|
837.854 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Mon Sep 24 1990 14:29 | 59 |
| Rarely if ever can a team be quite so depressed at winning a
Grand Prix. The Ferrari people have probably turned puce with
rage and irrespective of the image given to the public the
lying brummie twit will be getting the heavy verbals behind
the scenes.
Basically the Ferrari was the car for this circuit, it practised
fastest, was quickest in the warm up and clearly in the race too
so why didn't they just walk away to the neat 1-2 victory which
they so desperately needed to keep the championship chances alive.
If the Ferraris had got off the grid ahead of the McLarens that
would basically have been it but in fact they so very nearly
didn't make 50 yards with Mansell seemingly intent on eradicating
the entire team. With Prost dumped to 5th and the Mclarens in front
on a circuit with few places to pass it was certain to be a
struggle. Prost I thought fought back wonderfully from such a
ridiculous imposition but really it was bound to be Senna's day
and when Prost lost time at the pits he really did seem to be out
of it.
Meanwhile Senna, very cleverly let Mansell through. He couldn't
outrun the Ferrari and clearly feared a manic lunge at some point
or other which might take him out of the race and hence chose to
poodle down the straight to let him through at the place of least
risk. None of the mad, dangerous weaving that Mansell used against
Piquet earlier on. Senna also knew that he wasn't up against any
great intellectual force here and that Mansell would shoot off as
far as possible in front rather than slow the pace down as would
be correct team tactics.
Indeed he was so keen to go and win that instead of maximising
the hindrance that Alliot could provide he decided to bop him into
the armco instead.
Prost meanwhile soldiered on and it was an immense disappointment
that the race had to be stopped since Senna would have been passed
and then what?.
Prost said it all after the race. "I am not thinking of the world
championship any more, Ayrton won it today". Which indeed he did,
Senna drove well and his tactics were first class. But
realistically any chances Ferrari had, disappeared courtesy of
Mr "I'll do whatever I can to help the team win the world
championship" Mansell. If your teammate is your worst enemy then
you've precious little chance have you.
The remaining tracks may well favour Ferrari but it's truly
academic now. They may have still been alive and kicking.
If I was Ferrari management I'd tell Mansell his 'services' were
not required for the rest of the season and run somebody else.
If Williams sign him they'll thoroughly deserve exactly what
they get - a string of non-finishes and whingeing about the car.
-John
PS. Did murray say Modena was going to Tyrrell.?
|
837.855 | Does beer make you go deaf ?, pardon | IJSAPL::CAMERON | I rode on the roads in Rhodes | Mon Sep 24 1990 14:31 | 11 |
| >- Prost was furious about his car yesterday. Complaining about lack of
> professionalism in the preparation, and how if things didn't improve, he
> would have to re-consider his position at the end of the season....
Err, perhaps I heard the post-race interview wrong, but I thought I
heard Prost said his car was superb...
Gordon
|
837.856 | Nearly right. | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Mon Sep 24 1990 14:33 | 7 |
|
I'll agree with 95% of what you said John, but Alliot got what he
deserved.
Do all Ligier drivers these days have to drive like Rene Arnoux?
Mark
|
837.857 | Look no mirrors | COMICS::MILLAR | No Porn please I'm Graphic | Mon Sep 24 1990 14:50 | 18 |
| Funny old world isn't it !!
First of all Mansell gets called all sorts of names for not finishing.
When he does he gets slated for finishing FIRST.
Prost .. I heard him say the car was superb, what about his timing
for a tyre stop.
I guess what some people would like to have seen is Mansell allow Prost
through. Considering that we will never know if he would have done so,
had the race run full distance, we should not really throw stones at
that one.
Re' Alliot & Mansell, I would not like to pass anybody on the road who
feels that Mansell Bumped Alliot of the track.
Have a nice day..
|
837.858 | Lonely <> selfish ! | YIPPEE::FILHOL | Where are we ? | Mon Sep 24 1990 15:24 | 9 |
| Prost said many things after the race and he felt very disappointed by
what happent yesterday.
But when the race was stopped, Prost said that he did not have the 6th
gear anymore, so he was nearly impossible for him to overtake Senna by
the end of the race.
In fact, he kept in mind the incredible start and will never forget it!
A great race for Senna and Berger too !
Bruno
|
837.859 | | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Mon Sep 24 1990 15:32 | 23 |
|
� In fact, he kept in mind the incredible start and will never forget
it!
For what reason? Did he think Mansell lunged at him (as it appeared) or
did he just think someone else made a good start?
When I said I agreed with John 95%, I meant the facts he stated not the
opinions. If Prost really was in trouble at the end then surely Ferrari
could only be pleased that one of their cars won, whichever it was.
It looked to me as if Prost WAS in a position to seriously challenge
Senna when the race was stopped, but we'll never know. We'll also never
know whether Mansell would have let Prost through if they'd been 1-2 at
then end.
Mansell can hardly be blamed for Prost making a slow start and letting
the Mclaren's get away even if he did perhaps slow him once they were
away, and he could hardly be expected to slow down and let both Senna
and Prost through in the hope that Prost WOULD have got past Senna,
could he?
Mark
|
837.860 | All we need is the HGV transporter..... | IOSG::MITCHELL | Elaine | Mon Sep 24 1990 16:28 | 10 |
|
While we were packing up to leave Pembrey last night, a Benetton wagon
arrived, and proceeded to unload a (presumably) test car. There could
not have been anything too secret on it, since we were allowed to get
right up to it, even when they'd taken off the bodywork.
I wonder who's test driving it today, the tyres on it had 'Prost'
written on them, maybe he's thinking of a move to Benetton :-)
|
837.861 | Send him out to pasture now. | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Sep 24 1990 16:32 | 13 |
| Mark,
I thought that both McLarens went through the gap left in the track
by Mansell.
Mansell went off line. You saw it as well as anybody.
Forget slow start, I don't think anyone is complaining
about a slow start - Mansell tried to zap Prost - that's it for me.
Question: why?
George Frost
|
837.862 | As you say, why? | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Mon Sep 24 1990 16:42 | 12 |
|
Yes, it certainly LOOKED like Mansell squeezed across on Prost, but
do you know why? I don't and the head on shot is very misleading in
terms of who is in front or behind.
Prost was on the front row and, if Mansell did slide sideways because
his tyres were spinning, he should have been able to get away faster
than Mansell. I can't see why Mansell would want to punt his teammate
off either, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and presume it
was, at worst, a mistake in his start.
Mark
|
837.863 | Activity testing | NEWOA::VANDIK::HENNEMAN | Westfield VAN Driver | Mon Sep 24 1990 16:53 | 6 |
| Re .860
The really interesting thing about Benetton no 19 at Pembrey yesterday, was that
it had active suspension fitted.
Dick
|
837.864 | | OVAL::GUEST_N | Nowhere at all.... | Mon Sep 24 1990 16:58 | 13 |
|
And as for Mansell trying to knock Alliot off the track. Are you
serious ? Mansell, leading the other 3 round had every right to be
where he was, and he was very lucky not to have his wheel knocked off.
I can only think that Alliot hit dead centre.
Shame the race was stopped, but there was probably no alternative.
Re the start. I don't see what Mansell would gain. No-one would touch
him again if he had deliberately gone for Prost.
Nigel
|
837.865 | Whinging vs Winning ?? | VOGON::KAPPLER | | Mon Sep 24 1990 17:36 | 13 |
| Interesting......
Mansell + poor equipment = Whinging Mansell
Prost + poor equipment = Furious Prost
Some bias here?
For my money, Prost threw it all away by insisting on overtaking Berger
when he should have been in changing his tyres. Must have had his brain
in neutral .......
JK
|
837.866 | Congrats to a well run race | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Mon Sep 24 1990 21:04 | 14 |
| First off Congrats to Mr. Mansell for a great and well run race.
Second if Prost had not have been kept in the pits as long as he
was I am almost certain he would have passed Senna (after all he
was only 1.5 sec. behind when the race was called), and yes I think
Mansell would have let him win as long as it didn't mean giving
up second place.
So it seems there still is some racing left in Nigel, and that Ferrari
can bring two cars to a race.
The Mclarens certainly were not invincible yesterday.
Regards,
FCGT
|
837.867 | Too many wheels to hit ! | BRADOR::ZUFELT | | Mon Sep 24 1990 23:14 | 37 |
| I can't believe you guys.
How can anyone think that Mansell or anybody else (even Senna) would
risk life and limb, not to mention machinery to put somebody off the
track.
The start of the race is the most dangerous. What do you think
would happen if Mansell and Prost stopped dead at the front of the
pack ? Not a pretty site, I would suspect (2 very dead millionaires
or more).
As far as anybody deliberately hitting another driver off the track and
hoping to survive the aftermath, at the speeds these cars are going
and all those wheels sticking out. I don't care how good you think
you are, you wouldn't or they wouldn't try it.
It's not worth the chance.
Accidents are caused by poor judgment and over zellous driving.
Not let me by or I'll hit you off. This isn't NASCAR where it is
all part of the game ( but still frowned upon).
I enjoy reading these notes.
Fred Zufelt
P.S. Just got back from Montreal. Peugeot was running well for its'
first time out. Qualified 12th Friday in the dry, Saturday was too wet
to improve.
Keke worked his way up to 7th before being pushed from behind
and falling back to 12th again. The race was done for him when his
engine seemed to expire at the end of the straight, may also have
been gear box. I haven't heard what the actual problem was.
I look forward to more 3.5 engines next year, the sound is great.
|
837.868 | | MARVIN::RUSLING | Hastings Upper Layers | Tue Sep 25 1990 12:34 | 24 |
|
The way I heard/read it is that Mansell's car suffered massive
wheel spin and he went sideways at the start. This especially
irritating to Prost who had just spent two weeks practising
starts, whilst Mansell had not bothered. Who's fault? Well
apparently the semi automatic gearbox is difficult to get a fast
start with, but Mansell not practising does look unproffessional, as
did his first 3 laps until he had calmed down a bit.
Prost lost one of his gears somewhere during the race, either
4th or 5th.
What angered Prost was Ferrari's attitude to Mansell's winning.
They stated that they were quite happy with this and that unless
it was the last race of the season and winning that race meant
clinching the world championship then Mansell was correct. This
is a completely different attitude to Senna and Berger's.
To me, the most incredible thing was Senna explaining how and why
he let Mansell through when he did. A good and interesting race, but
I would liked to have seen another 10 laps. What the result would
have been, I don't know, but I think that I would have enjoyed it.
Dave
|
837.869 | Kudos to Mansell | ULYSSE::COLLINS | Russ, 828-5371, Valbonne | Tue Sep 25 1990 14:08 | 25 |
| An early-stopped race is always full of "what-ifs".
It looked to me like Prost was catching my hero, and given another 9
laps, and assuming no blocking by traffic, would have been in attack
position and seemed fast enough to get by. If he was doing this without
one of his gears, it was a great driving job.
It didn't look to me like Prost would have caught Mansell and been
faster enough to get by, and I don't think Mansell would have "let" him
by (nor do I think he should have).
I think Mansell deserved his win. He made two mistakes (the start,
which penalized Prost, and later when he let Prost by). I doubt if
either had a direct effect on the result.
For the Alliot thing, it looked like a classic case of a fast car
going for hole, and the slower car turning into him as if he hadn't
seen Mansell. I've seen a lot worse cases, usually involving Mansell,
Berger, Senna (not necessarily in that order) going for invisible
holes. It looked to me like it was Alliot's fault (and _I'm an expert
;-) ).
For my hero, I think Senna drove a great race as well. Even the
French TV announcers (even more biased than me) thought he did well
holding off the Ferraris as long as he did. He had a bit of luck at the
start (Mansell giving him a slot) and in the pits (Prost 3-sec slower).
Overall really good racing by Mansell, Senna, Prost, and Berger. Too
bad they were so much faster than the Bennitons, Williams, etc.
russ
|
837.870 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Tue Sep 25 1990 14:09 | 36 |
| The big news
------------
Well, this morning's news is that Prost has decided to offer up
his opinion in the most telling way and says he doesn't want to
drive for Ferrari next year. Unlike the statements made by some
other drivers one could mention this doubtless will become reality.
What will he do?. I think he'll carry on if he can find what he
considers to be a suitable drive, and knowing Prost you can be
sure that he will want to go to Benetton.I would be very
surprised if this doesn't come about, notwithstanding Nanninis
apparent resigning.
Other bits
----------
I don't think Mansell intentionally went for Prost it was
just stupid driving.
Alliot, flat out followed the racing line, Mansell wasn't anywhere
near alongside as they entered the bend. A better driver than
Alliot would have slowed earlier and let him through and a better
driver than Mansell would have eased off and avoided the accident.
So often you get (particularly on the BBC) backmarkers being
castigated for no good reason someone should put a word in for
them. It is simply not possible for them to vanish into thin air
particularly if trying to follow the racing line at full speed.
Murray Walker still talks about Schlesser ramming Senna but I saw
that race and Senna rammed Schlesser, no doubt about it whatsoever.
Caffi. Somehow forgot to mention Caffi, who hopefully isn't badly
injured. He's run very well lately picking up good results in the
uncompetitive Arrows. I hope we see him back soon.
-John
|
837.871 | I see no drivers! | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Tue Sep 25 1990 14:13 | 6 |
|
John,
Who are these driver's who are better than Mansell and Senna?
Mark
|
837.872 | OK, rising to the challenge | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Tue Sep 25 1990 14:24 | 20 |
| >> John,
>>
>> Who are these driver's who are better than Mansell and Senna?
>>
>> Mark
Well Prost may be better than Senna but then again he may not.
I have not the time, nor does Marvin have the disc space, to list
all of those drivers who are better than Mansell.
Mansell is to motor racing what the Sun is to journalism. The
Sun is a very popular paper but I don't read it myself, although
many others do. Some of the pictures are quite nice but that's
about as far as it goes. Mansell can be entertaining but he's
never really going to win anything, had his chances and fluffed
them.
-John
|
837.873 | | OVAL::GUEST_N | Nowhere at all.... | Tue Sep 25 1990 15:56 | 4 |
|
I wouldn't call a blow out at 200mph, fluffing chances.
Nigel
|
837.874 | | MARVIN::RUSLING | Hastings Upper Layers | Tue Sep 25 1990 16:19 | 2 |
|
Caffi ended up with a badly twisted ankle.
|
837.875 | New Noter | CMOTEC::HORNBYK | | Tue Sep 25 1990 17:22 | 16 |
|
Re The start: Yes Mansell made a hash of it! But I guess he knows that more
than anyone. I have followed Mansell since the early days and
have not been impressed by his starts,but since joining Ferrari
they have gone from bad to worse.Maybe he still suffers from
pre-race nerves!!??!(I do every time he is on pole)
Re The race: It was a very hard COMPETITIVE race,any of the first four could
have won,Mansell did and I think well deserved. As for prosts
third place ruining his chances for the championship,maybe he
should place some of the blame on Ferrari reliability early in
the season.
Re Team tactics: Is that sort of thing realy what the spectator wants to see?
Best!
|
837.876 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain... | Tue Sep 25 1990 17:54 | 9 |
| Anyone else's opinion of Senna changed this season?
This year, I can't think of any driving "incident" involving him this year, nor
do I think that he has "bad-mouthed" another driver, the race organization, or
his team.
In fact, he's let his driving do the talking - good for him!
Steve
|
837.877 | A better season altogether. | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Tue Sep 25 1990 18:03 | 6 |
|
Perhaps FISA's knuckle rapping did the trick then?
Mark
|
837.878 | | LISVAX::BRITO | | Tue Sep 25 1990 18:28 | 30 |
| re: .876
I think he has changed completely his attitude on the track.
...and out of it.
After the race there was a session with the press.
I thought it was unbelievable. Mansell was exuberant, very happy,
he thanked (!) Senna for not obstructing his way, he declared
that Senna was a great driver and they were in fact so friendly...
Senna said that he let Mansell pass him because he wasn't taking any
risks and added that after a few laps he could have tried to
get the lead, but then again that it would have been too risky.
Prost was very depressed. He stated that his car had no 6th gear and
that he was no longer worring about the present season, but thinking
on the next one.
All this in a friendly tone so opposite to last year Estoril GP.
I think this is due to an almost decided season.
I also heard Mansell stating that he might just reconsider his
retirement decision... He also has a plastig bag (a big one) with
hundreds of letters from fans (Ferraristas, probably)
asking him not to leave F1. I'm not sure if they would write those
letters if they knew he is to join Williams (from what I've been
reading in this topic)! This means of course that Piquet was right
when he said that Mansell would not retire. I hope he doesn't.
The only problem is IMHO that William will not have the kind of
equipment to face Ferrari and Mclaren/Honda. But that'll be
our next season's subject...
RUI
|
837.879 | No driving incidents ?? | CRATE::LEECH | | Tue Sep 25 1990 19:09 | 6 |
| re .876
Ask Nannini a few races ago !!
Shaun
|
837.880 | Where's the pass ??? | NATASH::COUGHLIN | | Tue Sep 25 1990 20:19 | 19 |
| I was in shock watching the GP from Portugal last night on ESPN (not just the
front row shuffle). They were on commercial break when Nigel got by Senna -
and didn't bother to replay it (even on a delayed broadcast)! If this wasn't
the highlight of the season, surely it was one of them?
What the heck happened?
btw, I think some folks have been a bit harsh on ol' Nigel of late. To call
someone a whiner, when his car broke time after time? Afterall, he did rather
graciously move over (and adjust contracts for #1) to accomodate Prost. To get
the short end of the maintenance stick after this is probably not what he
expected. Now, if Prost's car failed all those times this year too and Nigel
was the only one complaining, then it might be fair to call him a whiner. But
when Prost complains, it's "professional"? When you're being paid $9+ million
per year and your reputation (and earning potential) is about to go down the
drain, I'd call a potential $10 million contract for the next year "a
professional consideration" for BOTH.
a view from across the pond,
Mick Coughlin
|
837.881 | Ferrari, Prost, etc | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Sep 26 1990 13:50 | 17 |
| - Mansell definitely made a poor start, but nobody can really accuse
him of doing it on purpose (against his teammate !). Later on
in the race he opened the door when Prost came back.
- Finally as mentionned in previous notes Prost lost the race because
of 1) a very long tyre change, 2) he lost 6th gear 2-3 laps before
the flag and 3) the race was cut by 10 laps (although I don't
really believe he could have passed both Senna and Mansell).
- Prost is fighting a battle against Fiorio. One must understand
that Prost is a FIAT man, Fiorio did not want him in the team. The
argument is : "if you FIAT want to win the championship you'd
better rely on me managing the team ie get rid of Fiorio".
- Yesterday (25 Sep) Gianni Agnelli, President of FIAT confirmed
that is backing Prost, against Fiorio.
|
837.882 | Consistently anyway! | CHEST::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Wed Sep 26 1990 13:54 | 12 |
| Sounds like the knives are out again at Ferrari.
Fiorio has done a lot more for FIAT's motorsport in general than Prost
ever will.
Funny to see Prost instantly adopt Mansell's whining mantel as soon as
Mansell starts winning.
Mark
PS When have Ferrari EVER been able to field two top class cars in
the same race (in the last 10 years anyway).
|
837.883 | more bits | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Sep 26 1990 14:15 | 14 |
| re .825
I haven't read this conference for a while (DECville you see) so
this may not be real news, anyway :
- Modena will replace Alesi at Tyrrell (announced by Bob Tyrrell)
- Ilmor is not ready with the new V10 engine (and won't be for a
number of months)
- The Arrows-Porsche may appear at Suzuka
- Boutsen is very frustrated. He hears (in the press) that lots
of drivers may be replacing him next year but Frank Williams does
not even consider telling him. Additionally the Williams FW13
still suffers minor problems like faulty gear linkage, failing
suspension bits, etc ....
|
837.884 | | ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSY | for Mapplethorpe's eyes only | Wed Sep 26 1990 16:24 | 26 |
| A look at my tape seems to show Mansell *steering* over in front of
Prost at the start. The ESPN announcers concluded that Mansell
had been "greedy" at best. I agree. I think that he committed to
himself to beat Prost off the line at all costs, feeling that if
he didn't the race was lost. Then he spun his tires with a sloppy
start, and simply turned right to solve the Prost problem, knowing
that he could reel in the McHondas, which are at their worst at
Estoril.
Prost was apparently angry at Fiorio keeping Steve Nichols back at
Maranello to do development work. On that point Prost has a valid
complaint: How often is a driver in the championship hunt denied his
personal race engineer? It's hard to imagine that ever having happened
before. It was an outrageous power play by Fiorio, much as Mansell showed
no class at all with his Senna-like chop at the start.
Poor Alain, after a season trying to pass Berger-the-Blocking-Back,
he finally shares the front row with his "teammate" and the guy goes to
work for Ron Dennis all of a sudden!
Re Autodromo de Estoril: They gotta get that armco further back from the
track. The only reason the race had to be stopped is because of big
track design flaw.
MrT
|
837.885 | | FTCVAX::SMITHS | | Wed Sep 26 1990 16:50 | 8 |
| re.882
I think the last time Ferrari fielded two competitive cars was in the
days of the great Giles Villeneuve and I think the no.2 driver was
Alboreto,and that was in the early 80's.
steve
|
837.886 | | WFOVX8::DOBOSZ_M | Cole's Law: Slice Cabbage Thinly... | Wed Sep 26 1990 18:15 | 8 |
| Re.: Note 837.882 by CHEST::SAXBY "Time to say something contentious!"
� PS When have Ferrari EVER been able to field two top class cars in
� the same race (in the last 10 years anyway).
I was at Montreal in '85 when the Ferraris of Alboreto and Johansen
finished 1-2...
Mike
|
837.887 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Wed Sep 26 1990 19:01 | 8 |
| Patrick always seems to have good information on the political
side of things. Where does that come from?.
I think however that Prost also sees that the writing is on the
wall for Ferrari competitiveness an doesn't fancy another year
of it.
-John
|
837.888 | ENOUGH of "Ferrari can't field 2 cars"! silly! | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Thu Sep 27 1990 01:26 | 7 |
| re: 882
Seems to me Ferrari had a 1-2 earlier this year. That means they
fielded two top class cars. Forgotten the Villeneuve & Pironi days?
How about Lauda and Reggazoni?
Don
|
837.889 | Small aberration - Nannini's fault for not wingeing enough! | NSDC::SIMPSON | Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain... | Thu Sep 27 1990 16:54 | 18 |
| >> <<< Note 837.879 by CRATE::LEECH >>>
>> -< No driving incidents ?? >-
>> re .876
>>
>> Ask Nannini a few races ago !!
>>
>> Shaun
Ooops - forgot about this one :-) !!!
Still, his stock has gone up a great deal in my book.
Cheers
Steve
|
837.890 | broadcast in the US | BROKE::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Thu Sep 27 1990 18:03 | 6 |
| re .880: You got it on ESPN??? It was announced as a one-hour taped
replay on Sunday afternoon, and I sat there, but nothing came, except
some dumn extracts from baseball games in the early 60s! How did you
hear about a replay latter on? Must admit I was pi**ed to miss that.
JP
|
837.891 | Luck and champions | BROKE::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Thu Sep 27 1990 18:11 | 26 |
| re Senna: I must admit I am no fan of his, and thought little of him
last year. This year does seem to show an improvement, both in clear
thinking and driving for the title, and in terms of keeping cool during
races. We even say him being passed by Prost without throwing somebody
off the road. If I remember well from last season, that has never
occured. When Prost was faster, he either went to fast and straight
forthe sand box, or straight into Prost.
So a definite improvement this season, thas has highly contributed to a
much more interesting season. Still, improvement is not perfection,
Nannini will stay as a very dark spot on his season.
I still think he has been very lucky, and Prost unlucky this season, by
an amount that probably corresponds to the difference in points. Things
like a car that expires just *after* the finish line rather than just
before, like in Monaco, or a few races where the last few laps bring a
series of abandons just in front of him.... Last Sunday appears to be
another lucky one: 10 more laps could have changed a lot. I believe
without that, we would have a very close season finish.
With two top drivers in good cars, and a more civilized bunch, next
season should be quite good also. I'll bow to Senna if he *completly*
refrains from driving into opponents next season. Getting there, but
still a little better would be more in keeping with a world champion.
JP
|
837.892 | | ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSY | for Mapplethorpe's eyes only | Thu Sep 27 1990 18:29 | 20 |
| ESPN finally ran the tape at 10PM ET Monday night. I'm really
disappointed in what they did Sunday, and they only made matters
worse by NOT even bothering to advise us as to why they weren't
making good on their announced schedule and when the race would
finally be shown.
I don't understand why they didn't schedule to show the race live
in the first place.
A buddy of mine in the TV biz tells me that racing has historically
been ESPN's cash cow, and that they're losing their ass big-time on
the new baseball contract. Now, baseball was meant to be an image
building loss-leader product, but the losses have exceeded their
projections. So much so that they preempted Estoril, a rebroadcast
for Gawd's sakes!, to show the Pirates playing a last place team.
Also, they totally botched the editing of the tape, passing over most
of the important action.
MrT :^(
|
837.893 | And I have to pay to not watch it too! | STAR::BLAKE | I see trees of green, yellow, red... | Fri Sep 28 1990 14:07 | 4 |
| And this Sinday there's no GP on ESPN either. They're showing Aerobics
Sunday morning instead.
Grrrrrrr.
|
837.894 | Latest politics | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Fri Sep 28 1990 14:19 | 34 |
| Caught a news report this morning from Spain with the latest
Ferrari related talk.
Apparently following some activity from on high Fiorio will
stay and Prost will continue to "work with Ferrari for the
remaining three races". This of course infers that there was
a danger that he wouldn't do the last three races which must say
something for the depth of the row.
Other very interesting specualtion goes like this - It's not
Williams as such that is desperately keen to sign a 'name'
driver but Renault who of course will be putting up the dosh
if only in kind. This makes sense because Frank Williams is known
to be someone who rates the car as the higher priority. He
once said "Drivers are like light bulbs, you just plug them in."
Renault are described as being 'Ecstatic' at the prospect of
being able to sign Prost, so Prosts name is being associated
with Williams right now for next season. Mansell's chance of
signing with Williams immediately is thus crushed, at least for
the present.
Prost's name is not at present being associated with Benetton
much, but I still reckon he'd rather drive the Barnard Benetton
next season, particularly as the new regulations may tip the
balance away from V12 towards V8 power.
Anything could happen but if Prost leaves Ferrari, Mansell may
stay demanding No 1 status of course. This opens up the prospect
of Mansell and Alesi being the Ferrari men. I could imagine
Alesi as a no 2 to Prost but to Mansell. Sounds like a recipe for
a lot of fireworks and little success.
-John
|
837.895 | Watch Modena next Year | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Fri Sep 28 1990 14:28 | 11 |
| In amongst all of the big name talk, the signing of Modena
by Tyrrell has gone almost unnoticed. Modena is a driver
rated quite highly in many quarters. One thing is certain
we'll be seeing a lot more of him next season, though I fancy
Tyrrell may have to return to Goodyear tyres if they really
want to be in there with a chance of the title.
They could also do with someone other than Nakajima but there
perhaps there's no choice.
-John
|
837.896 | Bad News | OVAL::KERRELLD | | Fri Sep 28 1990 14:31 | 7 |
| News from Spain: Practice has been stopped after a major accident involving
Martin Donnelly. Apparently, his Lotus left the circuit on a fast corner,
hit the barrier, split in two and Donnelly was thrown from the car. He has
been taken away from the circuit on a stretcher but there is no news of his
condition.
Dave.
|
837.897 | Latest | OVAL::KERRELLD | | Fri Sep 28 1990 16:47 | 8 |
| Donnelly has a fractured left leg and collar bone and a suspected fractured
skull.
Provisional grid is; Senna (1.3 seconds faster than '89), Berger, Alesi,
Prost, Patrese, Boutsen, Mansell (in Prost's spare, after his car failed),
Piquet, Nannini. Donnelly set 14th fastest time before his accident.
Dave.
|
837.898 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Fri Sep 28 1990 17:02 | 8 |
| Jean-Claude MIGEOT, the aerodynamics engineer who designed the current
TYRRELL shape and who previouly worked on the "Barnard" Ferrari (he
left Ferrari for Tyrrell because of problems with Barnard), is back
at Ferrari.
MIGEOT is reported to have "followed" ALESI. The new FISA rules
on extending the flat bottom to the whole car next year means that
TYRRELL will lose their unfair advantage.
|
837.899 | | ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSY | for Mapplethorpe's eyes only | Fri Sep 28 1990 21:33 | 18 |
| Speaking of design:
- Why do the rules changes favor the V-8s over the V-12s? And is
the flat bottom mandate the key?
- The cowl around the bottom of the windscreen on the McHonda has
been explained by Ron Dennis as being there to lower wind in the
cockpit. To me the cowl looks on helluva lot like an effective
downforce spoiler, and being in the middle of the car it seems
like it would really add to side-to-side stability. Why hasn't
it been copied? If I were a designer I'd copy everything McHonda
does in terms of new design.
Too bad about Donnelly. It now seems possible that perhaps Warwick's
accident was caused not by bad driving but perhaps some flaw in the
current Lotus, a once proud team that's sunk to the depths.
MrT
|
837.900 | Ferrari 1 and 2. | SKIWI::EATON | Marketing - the rubber meets the sky | Mon Oct 01 1990 00:04 | 8 |
| Well, Ferrari 1 and 2 in Spain. Prost 1st then Mansell. Benneton 3rd.
Senna pulls out on the 14th lap with mechanical problems.
Means Prost is still in with a chance of the championship (although slight),
and Ferrari for the constructors (almost certainly not, although they
probably won't be too far adrift of McLaren).
Roll on the next race !
|
837.901 | | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Mon Oct 01 1990 09:50 | 20 |
|
Senna retired 14 laps from the end, not the beginning.
Mansell continues to be very evasive about Williams - read that as
definitely on. Radio 4 said an announcement will be made at lunchtime.
The race? Alesi confirmed his worries about making it beyond the
first corner, but Berger cannot escape entirely without blame as he
seemed determined to push Alesi (and by default Patrese) off at the
first bend.
Senna seemed to get a holed radiator, but McLaren goofed big time (to
coin a transatlantic phrase) by not spotting it (even MW saw it
eventually). I'm suprised these things aren't self-sealing.
Mansell made it easy for Prost and Senna's retirement means that there
is some life back in the championship. Chances are, though, that the
same won't be able to be said after Suzuka.
Mark
|
837.902 | suspicion | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Oct 01 1990 10:04 | 4 |
| It's the 2nd year that - miraculously - the championship battle, which
should have been closed yesterday, is prolonged a couple more GP's.
Bizarre, bizarre
|
837.904 | Sign up, sign up... | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Oct 01 1990 11:26 | 15 |
| Having watched McLaren closely for the last half of the season, I am
convinced that they need a new chassis - not more power.
Senna was walking away from Prost at the start of the straight but
Prost was faster overall.
Ferarri can do with more power because the chassis can handle it.
My money remains on Ferarri for the Constructors (18 points difference)
and Drivers (9 points difference) championship.
I also think Ferarri will be the better prepared team at the start of
the '91 season.
Different story of course if 12 cylinders are banned.
George Frost
|
837.905 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Mon Oct 01 1990 13:30 | 40 |
| I think I detected a Prost who was out to prove a point yesterday.
A Prost keen to demonstrate what should have happened last week
and that the world championship should have gone to Ferrari. A
very aggressive, nothing to lose, almost angry sort of drive. Only
late in the race did he ease up whereas normally you'd expect him
to maintain the minimum advantage. Most impressive.
I couldn't tell whether Prost's post race comments about a good team
performance were aimed straight at Mansell or whether he felt that
he had got what he wanted from last weeks 'discussions'.
The McLarens really look to be struggling now. Even running wings
the size of billboards they're still slower through the bends
than the leading opposition.
The standard of commentating on the BBC goes from bad to worse.
Not only do they tend to repeat previous mistakes, as if this
will make them true, they seem to have adopted a distinct driver
bias, making assumptions about 'guilt' on the basis of who's
involved rather than what happened. Yesterday we saw DeCesaris'es
car being craned from the circuit, then we saw DeCesaris pulling
into the pits to retire, and then later out on the circuit again.
But worst of all was the castigation of Alesi, on what admittedly
was a rare occasion when it wasn't his fault. Despite seeing the
start three times neither of them noticed they way Berger pushed
Alesi, and Berger pushed Alesi three times!. No wonder the
Williams wasn't in the mood to let him through and anyway Boutsen
can't be in a good mood having been farmed off to Ligier. They've
never of course managed to criticise Mansell either, speaking in
reverent tones about the fine upstanding, honest sportsman.
Prost may now feel that he's getting what he wants from Ferrari
and is intent on staying. Maybe not. One report says Williams
will be making an announcement today on their drivers, another
tomorrow.
What's this about banning 12 cylinder cars?, never heard that.
-John
|
837.906 | JEREZ Commentary | CRATE::RUTTER | Full turbo boost... | Mon Oct 01 1990 13:57 | 8 |
| I don't know anything about banning 12-cylinder engines either ...
What I found surprising in yesterday's commentary was that Senna
appears to have 'patched things up' with Prost and is also on
'good' terms with Mansell. Perhaps he will turn out to be the
BEST driver after all ! (I shouldn't think 'Our Nige' will ...)
John
|
837.907 | Did i say "I will retire next year"?! | YIPPEE::FILHOL | Where are we ? | Mon Oct 01 1990 15:30 | 7 |
| It is now official:
Mansell will not retired next year.
Because he will drive a Renault engine in a British Car !
Williams and Mansell had made an agreement for next year.
Patrese will stray while Boutsen will drive for Ligier...
Bruno
|
837.908 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Oct 01 1990 15:35 | 9 |
| During an after race interview Prost declared that "when following
another car (McLaren) the tyres of his Ferrari quickly deteriorate"
but if he can move over then "I knew I was 1-2 sec faster than Senna".
Finally he said that the Ferrari team had worked the race tactics
this time and ... see the results ! He mentionned something about
Nigel stopping for tyres 1st, Prost 2nd and then the 2 Ferraris
"waiting" for Senna at the exit of the pitlane. He added "that's
what should have been done at Estoril".
|
837.909 | Can they recapture the old days? | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Mon Oct 01 1990 15:35 | 6 |
|
Maybe he meant he'll retire from a lot of races next year? :^)
Hopefully the old Mansell/Williams magic will return.
Mark
|
837.910 | Who says its not deliberate? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Oct 01 1990 17:33 | 19 |
| At least it appears that "the best?" drivers of the current batch will
be spread throught the various teams next year. With the exception
perhaps of Alesi and Prost in the same team.
Did anyone notice the incredible scene when Alesi walked up to and
spoke to Ken Tyrell when he returned to the pits?
Tyrell appeared to turn his head only enough to see who it was .....
then total IGNORE, apparently not a word spoken, no commiseration, not
even an acknowledgement?
From what I saw Alesi was not to blame. He appeared to have been
bounced sideways toward the left side of the track by Berger, Alesi
corrected just before the corner and was again pushed, this time from
the rear and by Piquet. The last pushed him off the circuit.
Berger was bounced unfairly by Boutsen but it seemed to be just
desserts.
George Frost
|
837.911 | 12 cylinders | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Oct 01 1990 17:39 | 3 |
| To my .904
forgot the :-) at the end.
|
837.912 | Another 1-2 by the team in red | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Mon Oct 01 1990 17:47 | 17 |
| Well it looks like Ferrari can run two cars in a race :-)
It was nice to see Ferrari finish 1-2 again, now if only they can
do it two more times this season.
One thing that really confused me is this. I was watching the race
and left for a moment (to get a beer and some munchies :-)) when
Prost was just leaving the pit area, and then when I got back Prost
was some 30 seconds ahead of Senna!!! What happend during the part
of the race I missed to cause such a gap???
BTW good work in the pits by both the Ferrari and McLaren crews.
It looks like it Ferrari may still win it all. ;-)
Regards,
FCGT
|
837.913 | About time too! | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Mon Oct 01 1990 18:24 | 7 |
|
Prost went faster :^)
Mark
PS Obviously someone at Ferrari was stung into action by my comments!
Oh the power of notes!! :^) :^)
|
837.914 | Not poor | CSSE::WAITE | | Mon Oct 01 1990 19:08 | 3 |
| In a Sunday suppliment yesterday there was a list of the top money
making sports figures. Among them were Mansell, Senna and Probst. I
don't remember the figures but all of them totaled over $1million.
|
837.915 | | ULYSSE::COLLINS | Russ, 828-5371, Valbonne | Tue Oct 02 1990 09:04 | 20 |
| re .908:
How does one "wait" at the pit lane? Senna was a half second ahead of
Prost, gained a half second in the pits (for the actual tire change).
Prost's only "plan" could have been to get around the track fast enough
to be in front of Senna when he came out again -- and Prost did it
well. Sounds to me like Prost was babbling a bit in the p[r]ost-race
interview; he does that as much as anybody.
I knew Prost would be faster when he got by Senna, but jeeze, he was
gaining 3 seconds a lap for some laps. I though Senna had opted for
hard tires and was going to skip the second pit stop. But since he was
quickly 30 seconds behind ...
Can anybody tell me about the points required for the championship?
What are the rules about the n-best races and how do they apply to
Prost's chances? I sure would like to see Senna win, _and_ Ferrari take
the manufacturer's championship. Is that possible?
russ
|
837.916 | best 11 out of 16 count | OVAL::RUNDELLD | Dave Rundell @SBP 782-2950 | Tue Oct 02 1990 09:20 | 1 |
|
|
837.917 | Oooooh dear! | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Oct 02 1990 12:54 | 10 |
| My sympathies are with Williams for '91. The car is not yet competitive
and Mansell will not help make it competitive, he is not that sort of
F1 driver.
My sympathies also are with all the other F1 drivers for '91 as Mansell
will be out to make a point (in his usual inimitable dodgem car style)
at the expense of all the other cars on the track. The Williams DOES
have enough power for Mansell to think that it is competitive.
George Frost
|
837.918 | more please | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Oct 02 1990 12:56 | 3 |
| re: -2
does 11 of 16 also apply to the Constructors Championship?
|
837.919 | y | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Tue Oct 02 1990 13:32 | 19 |
|
>> does 11 of 16 also apply to the Constructors Championship?
I don't know for certain but would guess that they count all
16 races as this is a better test of a car. The 11 out of 16
for drivers is to allow for the occasional unfortunate incident
and also to keep the championship alive longer.
For one year 79 they split the season into two halves from the
scoring point of view. That was the year that Williams arrived
in a big way but not until about half way, the first half being
dominated by Ligier. Since Williams had scored so little in Pt1
they were unable to amass enough points under the system to
win, although under the normal rules they would have been
champions (Jones). In the event the eternal runners up, Ferrari
took it.
-John
|
837.920 | Re:.917 | CMOTEC::HORNBYK | | Tue Oct 02 1990 13:58 | 5 |
|
Re:917 Seems to me Williams think more of Mansell than you do!
(maybe because they know him for what he really is, and
not just how he is portrayed by the media?).
|
837.921 | the tire change | BROKE::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Tue Oct 02 1990 14:07 | 20 |
| > One thing that really confused me is this. I was watching the race
> and left for a moment (to get a beer and some munchies :-)) when
> Prost was just leaving the pit area, and then when I got back Prost
> was some 30 seconds ahead of Senna!!! What happend during the part
> of the race I missed to cause such a gap???
what happened is the following: Prost was on Senna's tail. He and
Mansell went for tyres first (we saw both pit stops from the car camera
- impressive the speed at which they go). During the time Prost was out
after his change, he was lapping 2s faster than Senna. Senna then came
in for tires, made a pit stop equal to or better than Prost, but the
extra time got Prost in first position. When Senna came out, he came
just on the tail of the two Ferraris, passed Mansell (don't ask how, it
didn't look very clean), but was cleanly behing Prost.
Prost then started lapping between one and two second per lap faster
-he pulled out in a very impressive manner.
JP
|
837.923 | Wild in car views from Senna | SUBWAY::JANKOWITZ | Forget the lips. Read my mind | Tue Oct 02 1990 14:46 | 7 |
| ESPN showed the lap after Prost went in from Senna's in car camera. Senna's
tires must have been really bad because he was all over the track and
couldn't even catch the car in front of him which had to be a backmarker.
Senna probably lost several seconds on that one lap before he came in.
Even with a great stop he couldn't make up the time -
he lost on the previous lap
+ the quick time Prost must have run with his new tires.
|
837.924 | which media? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Oct 02 1990 14:50 | 7 |
| re: 920
is your media better than mine?. I'm trying to go by career
performance.
George Frost
|
837.926 | YES, then... | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Oct 02 1990 18:12 | 24 |
| Derek,
Yes I did rate Sterling Moss - then.
As soon as he moved away from driving Vanwalls he seemed to slip
gradually until, I believe, most of his supporters doubted that he
would win anything of consequence. Of course his two or was it
three? bad crashes didn't help.
With hindsight I would class Sterling Moss and Mansell together.
My thoughts are that Mansell is much less motivated now than in his
heyday of two to three years ago and that he will not get it back.
The same applies to Piquet, Patrese and one or two others.
I'm quite sure that on a given day each one could win a race, but I
do not believe that any one of those mentioned can win the
championship.
The best ranking in my mind flow naturally from the car that they
drive. The best are paid the best and drive the best. That ranking
comes from the people who should know.
regards George Frost
|
837.927 | Not as simple as that! | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Tue Oct 02 1990 18:19 | 13 |
|
Of course, which car who drives has nothing to do with how important
a driver's nation is to a particular sponsor has it?
I'm not trying to be awkward here, but who drives what is not just a
simple case of who is the BEST.
Of course, George, your argument shoots itself in the foot a bit as Ferrari
were quite happy to continue with Mansell as joint number 1. Unless of
course you ONLY considers McLaren a top team (which doesn't hold a lot
of water unless you rate Berge higher than Prost and Mansell).
Mark
|
837.928 | The Times of course!! | CMOTEC::HORNBYK | | Tue Oct 02 1990 18:53 | 14 |
| Re:924
George I read the Times on Monday!!!!
But seriously, Williams seem to be happy signing Mansell for '91.
After the big letdown of loseing Alesi I think Frank went to Mansell,
a,Because he knows him well and knows what he is capable of(albeit on
a good day).
b,He would be happy with a short contract.
I just Wonder if Frank is not looking to pick up the pieces from
Ferrari for '92, he may then replace both drivers.
Regards Kev..
|
837.929 | On this and that | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Wed Oct 03 1990 08:54 | 55 |
| I'm back!
Re the pit stop incident, the BBC commentators (Hunt and Walker) were
adament that, as Senna swooped out of the pits just behind the two
Ferraris (Mansell ahead of Prost) Mansell moved over at the first
corner to allow Prost through. Senna, in typically "entrepreneurial"
style, also elbowed his way through. It's conjecture but those two
(Senna and Mansell) have had a couple of close encounters that, in
previous lives, would have ended in tears but which in the new times of
gladnost have resulted in a bit of gentlemanly conduct and "racing
room". And about time too...
Re Mansell's "status" in the driver stakes, I believe that, on his day,
he is unbeatable but Prost and Senna stand out head and shoulders above
the crowd. Mansell is up there, too, and I don't share George's view
that he is not motivated anymore, nor do I believe any of the silly
nonsense about Mansell using extra-aggressive tactics to win. I think
Mansell will win a couple next year and has, yet again, another great
chance of taking the title. He is probably even more motivated (and
certainly a much maturer driver) than in the two near-miss years
previously with Williams.
My manager, Mr Kappler, expressed the opinion the other day.....(but
why don't you tell us all "your theory" John?? I liked it!!
Finally (!), you may be interested in the following regarding the
premutations of Senna's and Prost's championship chances :
NOTES: In the Driver's Championship, each driver may only score in 11
rounds and must, therefore, start dropping scores thereafter. At present,
this only affects Senna and Prost.
The situation for the championship is that the maximum points
Prost can score is 13 points (he must drop his two worst scores, which are
2 points in Canada and 3 in Brazil). This would make his maximum total 82.
Senna has scored 78 points but has also scored in 11 rounds - his worst
scores are 4 points for 3rd places in Brazil, France and the UK.
Therefore, it follows that Senna needs a win in either of the last two
rounds to clinch the title regardless of what Prost scores (a win would
give him 78 + 9 - 4 = 83 which is more than Prost could score).
The other permutations are quite interesting. If neither driver
wins one of the two remaining races, Senna wins the championship as
Prost could only increase his current 69 points by 7 (12 - 5) = 76.
If Prost were to win in Japan with Senna 2nd, Prost would have 76 points
(69 + 9 - 2) while Senna would have 80 (78 + 6 - 4). If Senna does not
either win or finish 2nd he will not increase his score. Prost needs
to win at least one of the two races, therefore, while Senna just needs
to keep Prost out of the winner's circle!
Colin[EOB]
|
837.930 | | ULYSSE::COLLINS | Russ, 828-5371, Valbonne | Wed Oct 03 1990 09:22 | 11 |
| Thanks for the numbers, Colin. That's what I was after.
Senna passing Mansell after his pit stop was spectacular. They went
around the bend precisely wheel-to-wheel, neither ahead of the other,
for a loooong time (a second or two?). That they never touched was a
sign of change from the past for both of them, but it was really
Mansell who must have made a tremendous effort (physical and
psychological) to stay wide enough to leave Senna the space he had
taken.
russ
|
837.931 | He needs a stick up his b*m | VOGON::KAPPLER | | Wed Oct 03 1990 11:59 | 29 |
| Ok Colin, here's Kappler's theory on Mansell.......
He stars when he has something to prove. Put him on the back of the
grid, or bad mouth him long and loud and he'll charge harder and faster
than anyone else...... He'll also put on a great effort for a receptive
audience. Winning the British GP was Nigel at his best.
Put him in front (not neccesarily first), and he cruises, and when
someone catches him he doesn't get wound up quick enough.
(All this assumes he's got a competitive car, of course.)
If Nigel is to have any chance of winning the Drivers Championship, the
worst thing that could happen to him would be to be in front halfway
through the season (select Cruise Control and, oh dear, second place!)
Having said all that, he's definitely got better at being a leader, but
I still think his chances of winning the World title are less than
evens.
(And just so Colin doesn't feel I've left anything out)...
The reason I say all this is a certain empathy with Nigel from my
Racing/Rallying days. I knew I was better than all the others, but if I
spun or found a crowd on Eppynt to perform to, my adrenalin made me
drive like a man possessed. Those were the days.....
JfK
p.s. Just in case it's not clear, I'm still a Nigel fan!
|
837.932 | | OVAL::KERRELLD | | Wed Oct 03 1990 12:26 | 5 |
| I agree with the Kappler theory on Mansell. I also prefer his style to the
android style of certain other drivers. He injects excitement into races
through his unpredictability (sp?).
Dave (an unapologetic fan).
|
837.934 | I don't like to say this but.... | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Thu Oct 04 1990 09:18 | 33 |
| I'm going to take time out to make some comments on this
conference ; in the way it is running rather than the content. I am
disturbed by the tone of some of the responses, both from the point of
view of "knocking" (to put it politely) others' opinions and from the
singleminded banner-waving of some folks who seem to be able to see no
evil in some drivers and no good in others.
I'm a Nigel fan. Having said that, I feel I can recognise good in
others, too. For example, I think Prost is still the best all-rounder. I
think Senna is close to being the outright best - he pure driving
skills are unmatched. I am prepared for others to question my opinions
but NOT my integrity or right to stating them.
A comment was made a while ago that Mansell is to motor racing what
the Sun newspaper is to journalism. I expect to read comments like that
in the Sun but not in this conference.
Ok, you may say, so why am I sounding off at someone expressing
their opinion? Because I feel the "tone" (the _friendly_ banter and
good-natured argument) of this conference has deteriorated as of late.
I get a good deal of enjoyment out of this conference. I love F1 motor
racing and enjoy expressing my views and seeing others' express their
(sometimes contrary) opinions. Some folks have got the idea but some of
you (and YOU know who you are) are, in my opinion, going over the top.
Please let's bring it back into line.
Sorry for the lecture but, having been away for a week I printed
off a pile of replies to this note and settled down to read them at
home last night. I felt extremely uncomfortable....
Colin
|
837.935 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Thu Oct 04 1990 09:46 | 7 |
| RE: -.1
I'll second that. Over the last couple of weeks some of the discussion has
gone down the tube. We're here to discuss motor racing - not who has the most
right to appear as the centre-fold of a motor racing fanzine....
Steve
|
837.937 | | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Thu Oct 04 1990 10:09 | 16 |
|
To an extent what Derek says is true, the conference is a good place
for some controversy and contention, but I agree that a few (and only
a few) of the recent notes have gone a bit too far, almost to the point
of being a personal attack.
Some of the US based conference are jokes because of heavy handed
moderation, but this one is on the whole pretty good, so if the
moderator feels things are getting out of hand then a gentle suggestion
that we all take things a little less seriously is not to be treated as
'big brother' watching us.
Mark
PS Anyone who thinks Ayrton Senna can drive is an idiot and Alain Prost
couldn't overtake an arthritic snail without being waved past! :^)
|
837.939 | | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Thu Oct 04 1990 11:27 | 6 |
|
Oh, a quick SHOW MOD shows he isn't.
I must admit he sounds like the ideal candidate for one! :^)
Mark
|
837.940 | catching up | ULYSSE::FROST | | Thu Oct 04 1990 11:56 | 44 |
|
Catching up with a few replies
re: 928 no Kev I don't read the Times (perhaps I should say regularly,
I do when I can get it).
re: 927 Mark the point I was making is that the media does not really
have any great effect on who goes where as pilot. It is the
industry that choses or scrabbles.
Frank Williams made overtures to Senna, Alesi and plumped on
Mansell eventually. Mansell is quoted as saying his decision
to return was made on the golf course while fulsome praise was
being heaped on him re. his ability etc. Mansell is also
quoted as saying that his decision to return "astonished" him
(Mansell that is!)
I frankly don't know if Frank Williams approached Mansell
before Senna or Alesi and that bit of information might change
my opinion since, as I have said it is the people in the
business who know best.
Last point, I agree completely about your opinion of Mansell
re. winning on his day. In fact if you look back at the notes
I tipped Mansell to win in Italy I think it was, and he goes
and wins the following one in Portugal (story of my life).
He is currently hot but I believe that his enthousiasm will
fast wane early next season because he is not hyped-up enough
(motivated) to dedicate all his time to F1 and his new drive.
The Senna's, Nannini's, Prost's, Capelli's, Bernard's,
Larini's, etc., are.
btw. We all probably know that Prost now has 44 F1 wins, but
very interesting too is that he now holds the record of
kilometers in front during a career;
10,189 previously held by Jim Clark (my hero), for 10,309.
re:934 some I agree Colin, some I don't. Let's keep this notes
conference going as it is - I personally like it.
George Frost
|
837.941 | | FORTY2::BETTS | | Thu Oct 04 1990 12:10 | 12 |
|
Sounds like the voice of reason to me; a concerned noter sharing
his viewpoint (a viewpoint that I happen to share). Obviously, as
Colin isn't a moderator, you could ignore him. Equally, he could
give up on this conference, which would be the poorer for his
withdrawl.
Cars, driving, and sporting personalities are all emotive topics,
but hardly (in my opinion) warrant the personal abuse occasionally
evident here.
Bill.
|
837.943 | Presumably your chair has wheels ? :-) | OVAL::GUEST_N | Nowhere at all.... | Thu Oct 04 1990 13:01 | 7 |
|
Derek, what you are saying is that as you note, your heart is going
at about 130 and the adrenalin is pumping through the veins.
I hope you use a good anti-perspirant !
Nigel
|
837.945 | Who you gonna call: MYTHBUSTERS | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Thu Oct 04 1990 14:33 | 10 |
| OK, now we've put to rest the "Ferrari can't field two cars" myth.
Now, what is the source of the "Ferrari will collapse in/after 1991"
line? They are the only team that's been able to challenge McLaren
consistently during the 3.5 formula. Renault has been a bust, Ford
worse. Perhaps the new challenger will be Arrows? Or maybe Yamaha?
Or is it that Subaru will come back? Yes, I'm joking. Seem to me that
Nichols, Migeot, Prost, Alesi, and Fiat should at least be respectable.
Don
|
837.946 | | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Thu Oct 04 1990 14:40 | 11 |
| � <<< Note 837.940 by ULYSSE::FROST >>>
� -< catching up >-
� re: 927 Mark the point I was making is that the media does not really
� have any great effect on who goes where as pilot. It is the
� industry that choses or scrabbles.
I know that. I was commenting on your comments that the best drivers
drive the best cars.
Mark
|
837.947 | we do not disagree | ULYSSE::FROST | | Thu Oct 04 1990 14:56 | 12 |
| That is my point Mark. The team managers select the best drivers.
If an up and coming driver is noticed this season (Alesi for example),
he will be selected to drive one of the best cars i.e. Ferrari.
Senna, Prost, Mansell and Berger are the best, certainly for 1989/90
and they drive the top two cars. If there are better drivers than these
around they will be given a drive in the cars... perhaps next season?
If a better car comes along the top drivers will migrate to it or
conversely the best driver will improve the car to be one of the best.
The end result is the same - the best drivers drive the best cars.
|
837.948 | No, we don't disagree. | CRATE::SAXBY | Time to say something contentious! | Thu Oct 04 1990 15:05 | 15 |
|
No we don't disagree. USUALLY the end result is the 'best' (in terms
of results) drivers in the best cars, but sponsors have a big effect
on which drivers drive which cars (especially new drivers coming into
F1 - count the number of French and Italian drivers in the last 5
years) and which ones, therefore, become the 'best' drivers.
The teams don't neccesarily get to pick the drivers who have performed
the best up until F1, because those drivers never get the chance to
shine in a reasonable F1 car. Sometimes mediocre drivers can get good
drives for reasons unconnected with their ability (Eg. Nakajima - once
the best Japanese driver around, but he's never been competitive in
the world of F1, despite sometimes having amongst the best cars).
Mark
|
837.950 | start somewhere | ULYSSE::FROST | | Thu Oct 04 1990 17:16 | 12 |
| A supposition.
I think that we all agree that the Renault/Williams is not THE best
car currently.
Senna (as was touted) or Prost goes to Renault/Williams for 1991.
I think it a reasonably even bet that the car/driver combination would
be the best in '92 at which point the team manager becomes free to select
from the best of the new crop of talent.
George Frost
|
837.951 | | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Thu Oct 04 1990 17:23 | 8 |
|
Can you explain what you mean, George. Maybe I'm being thick (don't
answer that! :^)), but I missed your point.
Are you saying that if Senna or Prost went to a team that team would
become competitive?
Mark
|
837.952 | Yes | ULYSSE::FROST | | Thu Oct 04 1990 18:04 | 24 |
| Yes Mark, I think like attracts like. Since most teams work on an
entreprenurial basis, huge salaries are proposed to get the 'best'
drivers.
Once that is done, all eyes are on the up-and-coming threat to F1
dominance and lucre flows in as investment. Its the old story,
establish credibility:
"thinks - if the best driver goes there, something must be good"
Once the investment is there in the form of engines, tyres, sponsorship
etc. the real work of development takes place.....with all the huge
sums of money around and sure enough within a season or two -if the
players play the game right, the car comes "on-line" and stays there as
the best car for a few seasons.
It can all go wrong of course.
I do NOT believe that any single promoter can design a car off the top as
a world beater, then attract the drivers. Its huge amounts of money!
and the days of Colin Chapman, Bruce McLaren etc. are gone.
George Frost
|
837.953 | It's a package deal that may be hard to put together | SUBWAY::JANKOWITZ | Lost in Wonderland | Thu Oct 04 1990 18:11 | 8 |
| I don't have a great memory. What happened to Piquet? Did he go from
a competative car to an uncompetative car?
Lauda was a great driver but how many races did he win after he left
Ferrari (to Brabham/Alfa? not counting the "fan car") and before he went to
McLaren? The fact that he was able to get into the McLaren and win another
World Championship suggests that he didn't go down hill while in the
Brabham.
|
837.954 | Lauda + Brabham | OASS::BURDEN_D | He's no fun, he fell right over | Thu Oct 04 1990 18:36 | 8 |
| Even though it was a retorical question, Lauda won 2 races with Brabham, one
of which was with the 'fan' car.
Also, there was a question about manufacturers points. They get to score all
16 races, both cars. It *is* possible for Ferrari to take the Makes
Championship with Senna the driver's title.
Dave
|
837.955 | | ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSY | for Mapplethorpe's eyes only | Thu Oct 04 1990 22:11 | 19 |
| '91 may bring back total domination by McHonda.
This season has been a lotta fun, in stark contrast to the drudgery
of the one '88, which was McHonda 1-2 almost entirely.
Many forget that McHonda has challenged - but probably not bested -
this year with both their chassis and engine at end-of-life. Not to
mention Berger instead of Prost as No. 2 pilot.
Next year we'll face the vaunted V-12, which according to Japanese
sources will debut as the most tested and reliable race engine ever.
Add to that presumably a new MP chassis and even with Berger McHonda
could well take all the excitement right back outta the game.
I hope I'm wrong. Btw, I'm surprised there hasn't been more
speculation in here about the impact on various teams of JMB's belated
(but justified, IMNSHO) rules changes...
MrT
|
837.956 | The difference between Ferrari and McLaren | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Fri Oct 05 1990 08:42 | 33 |
| I believe that the makings of a "mcLaren-beater" team are a subtle
combination of a lot of things, including all the mechanical elements,
the team staff, the facilities, the budget and, of course, the
designers, team managers and drivers. At the end of the day, it may not
be the team with the most talented driver(s) which wins through but the
team with the best OVERALL package.
In previous seasons, McLaren had this mainly (my opinion!) by dint
of their superior engine power. This year, they score high on
professional team effort (there are no "stars" in the McLaren design
team) and Ayrton (he being the catalyst that makes it all work). A lot
has to do with the relationship between driver and team (particularly
designer) with regard to feedback to eliminate faults and improve a
little of everything all of the time.
Ferrari have most of the ingredients for success BUT the big thing
they lack, I think, is team organisation and spirit. I have read that
it is a LOT better now than in Enzo's days when the Old Man could (and
did) on occasion completely change the technical direction of the team
or sack a key person on the spot. Ferrari seem to lack the
"professionalism" that Dennis brings to McLaren, who I consider to be
THE most professional team around.
Being successful for one year is good. Doing it two years on the
trot is magic. Doing it consistently for four or five years is almost
unbelievable but that is what McLaren have achieved with TAG Porsche
and now Honda power - several seasons of being consistently THE team to
beat. Ferrari have their day but I am not sure they can keep it up from
one race to the next never mind one season to the next. I think
Prost's current exasperation with Fiorio and the still-evident
political undertones are evidence of this.
Colin
|
837.957 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Fri Oct 05 1990 09:41 | 23 |
| To echo previous notes, McLaren have the best team organisation, the best
engine, one of the two best drivers available (previously they had both of
them), and an unbelievable budget - Ferrari are the only team anywhere near to
them.
Where they're weak is with their chassis. This is strange to say, since
they and Williams have dominated in this department for most of the '80s;
however this very successful line - which started with the MP4, has now reached
the limits of development.
I don't know who they've got working on this - I'm sure that they're not
ignoring it. Anyone got any information? I know that Gordon Murray has been
working on their road-going super-car; however I don't know if he's involved
in the F1 side of things.
Ron Dennis is a hard man; and does rub people up the wrong way - that's
certainly why he lost Barnard, and perhaps Nicols? Maybe this is going to cost
McLaren over the next season or two - what talent does he have left to produce
a new design?
Cheers
Steve
|
837.958 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Fri Oct 05 1990 13:51 | 14 |
| I wouldn't put great faith in the new V12 Honda being all
conquering next year. It has yet to race, let alone dominate.
V12s may produce more ultimate power but at a price. I expect
that in view of the regulation changes the lighter, torquier
V8 and V10 will be to greater advantage. The Honda V12 may
never appear, it's tests so far don't seem to have set the
world on fire.
Mansell fans, it seems, like whingeing just as much as the
man himself. There's nothing to stop them extolling his
virtues if they want, apart perhaps from a lack of content
matter.
-John
|
837.959 | Moss on Mansell | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Mon Oct 08 1990 09:00 | 14 |
| Message received and understood, John! I just hope you don't nail
me to the tree as has been done with Mansell....
There was an interesting article in this week's Sunday Times from
Stirling Moss (that "other" great British driver who never got to win
the World Championship - came 2nd 4 times!!) on Mansell's turnaround
from the retirement statement at the British G.P. Moss' opinion was
that, if he made the original decision for reasons of "family" then it
was wrong of him to now retract ; it smacks of him being pushed into
something he is not 100% committed to. On the other hand, it could have
been a superhype of the silly season.... For my part, I hope he wins it
3rd time "lucky" (for Williams).
Colin
|
837.960 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Mon Oct 08 1990 11:14 | 26 |
| I believe that Mansell's had his day - when he had the best team and car in
86-87. Next year, I think that "he'll give it a go"; however I can't
see him picking up more than a couple of wins unless the engine and gearbox
combination improve significantly. If, in the early races, the car is
competitive then anything is possible - otherwise he'll withdraw into his
(somewhat) petulant shell!
I have to take my hat off to Mansell - for four years he was the typical
British Great White Hope (the sort that promises much, but doesn't deliver).
I think that his first win was his 93rd Grand Prix - however from '85-87 he
finished regularly and strongly. I would never have imagined such an
accomplished career after such moderate beginnings....
In '86 and '87 he had to discard results (top 12 out of 16), which shows that
he is a finisher when in "industrial grade" cars - something that seems at odds
with the suggestion that he is "an accomplished non-finisher".
For my part, I'm glad to see him continue rather than have a "make-weight" take
his place. It is possible that he'll succeed - to come back from his early
career accident (broken neck), and later to blossom after 5 unspectacular
seasons shows that he's mentally made of pretty strong stuff - however I don't
think that '86-87 will happen again.
Cheers
Steve
|
837.961 | Back from Jerez to the same old stuff! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Oct 08 1990 13:09 | 32 |
| My, my you have been a busy lot recently! Two weeks away and over 100
new replies!
Anyway, don't beleive them when they tell you Jerez is deserted, its
just that the place takes 350,000 people! Its a good place to watch a
GP with views of a lot of the circuit from any point. As or the race -
it was great until Senna went out, then it got a bit processional.
Berger and Alesi went at it from the warm up lap, and Berger definately
had him off. However, a more mature driver than Alesi would probably
not have mixed it with wheel-banger Berger. The atmosphere was great
with the Italians and French ecstatic at the result.
What amazes me is how little comment there has been in here about
Martin Donnelly - you all seem so taken up with slagging off the
drivers. Seeing his body on the track the night before we arrived in
Jerez on Spanish TV and trying to piece together from our limited
Spanish what had happened was awful. It was only when we got to our
hotel in Cadiz (complete with Grouillard and some of the Ligier team)
that we got Eurosport and found out what had really happened.
Warwick proved again just how brave and good a driver he is at Jerez, I
wish Mansell had stayed retired and given his Williams seat to Del boy.
OK, so now the race is wide open again, but I still reckon Senna will
get it. Onto Suzuka and Honda-land.
BTW - the Ilmor V10 had its first live run at Donington on October 2nd
roll on next year when Leyton House will be right at the top!
Paul
|
837.962 | Make it three again! | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Oct 08 1990 13:32 | 17 |
| Would'nt it be fun if Senna did not place and Prost placed second in
Japan.
It would give Adelaide some needed beef as the track at which both
world championships (constructors and drivers) are decided.
Hope it does not rain enough for Prost to bow out again � la last year
and Lauda in Japan when Hunt won the title.
Seriously, I think that Ferrari are on a roll as they were mid-season
when they took the three in a row.
They lost the edge in Hungary and slipped somewhat, but I think the
set-to between Mansell and Prost after Portugal has pulled the team
together. So much so that I do not think that they will slip again this
season.
George Frost
|
837.963 | Estoril tyre testing | VIVIAN::MILTON | I'm thinking about it! | Mon Oct 08 1990 14:16 | 3 |
| Senna fastest at Estoril tyre testing last week in a V12 Honda - Mansell second.
Tony.
|
837.964 | Changes to flat bottom rule?? | SALEM::PROULX_R | | Mon Oct 08 1990 15:42 | 12 |
|
"Autoweek" magazine announced a few weeks back that JMB retracted
the flat-bottom rule stating that it would be reviewed for possible
implementation in '92. A more news on this???
Will the '91 cars sport smaller wings and no diffusers?
Rich P.
|
837.965 | 2nd brain scan | CMOTEC::HORNBYK | | Mon Oct 08 1990 15:47 | 12 |
|
Seems like Martin Donnelly is still on a respirator and is satisfactory
(is that good or bad?),I also read at the weekend that he was having a
second brain scan...BBC1 teletext keeps an update on his progress.
Re leyton House can't agree more,I also think Tyrrell will be a hard
team to beat, especialy now they have a driver who will give 100% to
the team as well as the drive.Did I read Modena is tyre testing for
Tyrrell in Estoril?
Regards Kev..
|
837.967 | Safe bet? | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Mon Oct 08 1990 15:57 | 6 |
|
Re .966
Who'd be his life insurance company?!?!?! :^)
Mark
|
837.968 | Anyone know any more on his condition ? | OVAL::GUEST_N | Nowhere at all.... | Mon Oct 08 1990 16:05 | 13 |
|
It really does depend in how many places his legs are broken in.
If it's just a couple, and he still has feeling in his feet then it
could be 'just' a couple of internal pins and he'll be on his feet,
without plaster/crutches in a few months. If, however, he had them
crushed, he could be in traction for a few months, have
internal/external pins until the bits knit together and not be too good
for a year plus...
Nigel. Who had an uncle on a motorbike crushed by a car. Lucky he was
in the RAF at the time.
|
837.969 | | ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSY | for Mapplethorpe's eyes only | Mon Oct 08 1990 16:07 | 32 |
| Steve Nichols said in an interview recently that he left McHonda
cuz of Ron Dennis. He particularly disliked Dennis' inability to
delegate and resultant meddling. What caused him to decide to leave
was when, after years of proving himself, Dennis bypassed him by
assigning him to reworking the MP4 and gave the MP5 project to an
unproven newcomer, who perhaps not coincidentally is an Englishman.
Re McLaren, don't underestimate the weighty advantage of having
exclusive rights to Honda's half billion dollar engine, which with
its utter reliability, massive power, and tractability will cover a
lot of organizational flaws like poor chassis design, pit work, race
prep, and driver management.
Some now talk as if the McHonda hasn't been the most dominant set-up
ever, and that this year's relative competitiveness will prevail over
the next few seasons. Again, both their engine and chassis are at end
of life and they're on top. Based on Honda's massive capital,
engineerng capability, and technology base whether or not they roll out
the V12 is irrelevant cuz their old engine, the V10, could be ECOd
forward and would STILL be the best mill next year.
One last time: Why do the new rules favor fewer cylinders?
Just saw the photo of Donnely flying across the tarmac still strapped to
his broken seat shell. Very ugly pitcture, especially given the morbid
angle of his right leg...
Mansell's peevishness at the start in Estoril (jealous of the little
Frenchman, eh Nige?) it appears has cost us a dramatic Senna-Prost
showdown Oz. Too bad.
MrT
|
837.971 | Something missing | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Oct 08 1990 16:51 | 9 |
| Mr.T,
I believe that you missed out the contribution to Mclaren dominance
of the two drivers Prost and Senna.
Without them Mclaren would have been very good but not the dominant
force that they are today.
George Frost
|
837.972 | and also | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Oct 08 1990 16:57 | 10 |
| re:970
>> Prost, I think, is more annoyed by the very poor timing and speed
of the tyre changes. >>
I think Prost was more narked at the lack of work Mansell had put into
starts prior to Portugal....
George Frost
|
837.973 | Autosport from a couple of weeks back | UNTADH::PAGE | Master of Desired Performance | Mon Oct 08 1990 16:57 | 4 |
| Mansell did, in fact, go on record and say that he almost spun it
off the start.
Dave
|
837.974 | Brundell for Brabham | CMOTEC::HORNBYK | | Wed Oct 10 1990 10:05 | 9 |
|
Brundell will be driving in F1 next season for Brabham....Sounds like
a good deal for Brabham.
Martin Donnelly has improved, but is still on a ventilator and
recieving kidney dialysis.
Never realy thought of opening bottles as a dangerous sport!!
|
837.976 | Barcelona | CMOTEC::HORNBYK | | Thu Oct 11 1990 13:54 | 11 |
|
I noticed Barcelona is hosting the Spanish F1 Grand Prix next season,
will that be Montmelo?? Also Magny Cours has definately took the French
Grand Prix from Paul Ricard circuit(shame after they have just spent
mega bucks on improvements).
Re.975 OUCH!
Regards Kev..
|
837.977 | some musical chairs ... | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Thu Oct 11 1990 14:52 | 6 |
| Johnny Herbert will drive the 2nd Lotus Lamborghini at Suzuka and
Adelaide.
Minardi has eventually fired Paolo Barilla. His seat is immediately
taken by Gianni Morbidelli (Ferrari's test driver) who has signed
with Minardi for 1991 as #2 to Pierluigi Martini.
|
837.979 | | SUPER7::BROWN | A particularly naughty Teddy Bear | Thu Oct 11 1990 15:28 | 3 |
| I once knew someone called Elly, and she was pretty morbid.
Laurie.
|
837.980 | I suppose he replaces Brundle at Wagwa | UNTADH::PAGE | Master of Desired Performance | Thu Oct 11 1990 15:30 | 9 |
| Ho ho.... Does anyone have any idea about the fate of Derek Warwick.
Has has no drive for next year, or so I gather from the limited info
I get out here in Munchen.
Speaking of which Derek... Your incident with beer seems to occur
to me once every 7 days. Around the weekend normally. Its a funny
old world innit.
Dave
|
837.981 | Munich, Barcelona...ah! rule changes! | FRAMBO::LIESENBERG | Just order a drink, Tantalus! | Fri Oct 12 1990 16:45 | 35 |
| re. 976
The race in Barcelona will be in the urban circuit of Montjuich, and
staging it there is one of the most lunatic notions seen in a long
time...having been born and raised in Barcelona, it beats me how
they'll accomodate the F1-circus in Montjuich... last time a F1-race
was held there, things weren't as big as they are now. What's more,
last time (1972, I think to remember, I was there as a 9 year old..),
Jochen Rindt decapitated 12 persons when he got off the track and flew
(remeber those REAL wings?) right into the masses at chest's height...
What makes it harder to believe is that they are building a wonderful
circuit next to Barcelona...
re .975
Having studied in Munich, I assumed your skull may have payed the toll
for one of those beer-mug fights in the railway station area (for our
co-noters not familiar with Munich's beer-standards, a beer-mug there
holds 1 liter of liquid and the effects of being hit with such a monster
shouldn't be underestimated, as a friend of mine who had a temper like
a Pitbull-terrier could tell ya. He was tamed by an incident involving
his nose and one of those beer mugs, and guess which one did stand it's
ground...). Still, it's very unwise to leave "Wei�bier" (the Munich
sort of beer) out in the balcony in the sun, even for Palestinian
terrorists who have skills in the handling of highly explosive
material, for that beer surely develops more carbonic output than a
fully revolutioned Ferrari engine... I'd strongly recommend the
purchase of a refrigerator! Still, I hope you're not in need of any
type of therapy to control a phobia against beer bottles now, I could
understand it...
...Paul who_broke_his_nose_when_finally_opening_a_particularly_
_stubborn_bottle_of_wine
P.S.: As MrT, I'm a bit surprised nobody's picking up the rules change
subject. Have they ever talked about supressing tyre-changes, as
they did with gas-stops some time back?
|
837.982 | | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Fri Oct 12 1990 21:33 | 9 |
| Now wouldn't that be interesting if you were not allowed to stop
for new tires. Everybody would be driving real slow to save wear
and tear on the tires and then blast through the last 5 laps, at
least this would happen at a few tracks. ;-)
BTW how do you open a wine bottle with your nose.
Regards,
FCGT
|
837.983 | Nannini loses arm in accident | SKIWI::EATON | Marketing - the rubber meets the sky | Sun Oct 14 1990 23:08 | 5 |
| The paper this morning reports that Nannini has lost the lower portionof his
arm in a helicopter accident near his home in Italy. he is currently undergoing
micro-surgery to try and re-attach the hand.
Does anyone have any other details of this ?
|
837.984 | | PEKING::TAYLORG | Bodybuilders do it till it hurts | Mon Oct 15 1990 10:22 | 8 |
| Anyone got any more new on how Nannini (Sp?) is doing after the
Helicopter crash ?
I heard over the weekend that the doctors have managed to save his arm.
What's the odds that Nannini does not come back to F1 untill 1992 if he
ever drives again that is.
Grant
|
837.985 | Medical bulletin | CASEE::MERRICK | Every silver lining has a cloud | Mon Oct 15 1990 10:22 | 12 |
| From VNS -
MOTOR SPORT
Benetton F1 driver Alessandro Nannini suffered a severed arm in a helicopter
crash near his parents villa in Siena, Tuscany. The 31-year-old was taken to
hospital in Florence where he underwent a 10-hour operation to have his
forearm sewn back. The F1 season continues next week in Suzuka, Japan, where
Brazilian Roberto Moreno wil drive the second Benetton. * Martin Donnelly
is still unconscious in the intensive care unit of the Royal London
Hospital. Doctors have said that he is now breathing without the help of a
ventilator and is slowly responding to treatment.
|
837.986 | Alessandro | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Mon Oct 15 1990 10:26 | 9 |
| Nannini's operation was a 'technical success' but is likely to be a
number of weeks before it is clear whether the arm will 'take'.
It was also stated (on CEEFAX) that it's unlikely that he will ever
have FULL use of his hand.
I doubt we'll ever see Sandro back in an F1 car.
Mark
|
837.987 | Crash artist outside the circuit? | FRAMBO::LIESENBERG | Just order a drink, Tantalus! | Mon Oct 15 1990 11:25 | 21 |
| One more info about Nannini's grisly arm-incident: it seems that, even
though he had no helicopter license (he had some instruction but
allegedely "didn't have the time to go for the license"...), he was in
control (up to a certain point, that is) of the helicopter himself when
the thing crashed. It's amazing to see that the F1 pilots don't seem to
get enough in the speed/risk department and switch to flying objects
with little success, as Graham Hill could tell us...
News say that indeed Nannini will never ever be able to drive an F1 car
again, and if it's proven that he was responsible for the accident
he'll be busy enough on the legal side for the next time...
...Paul
P.S.: About opening bottles of wine...picture it like this: you have
friends over for a "tr�s elegant" dinner and a bottle of "Chateau
Lafitte de Rothschild" just refuses to respond to your efforts with a
corkscrew repeatedly, at which, unnerved and in desperation, you clench
the bottle between your knees, and pull at the corkscrew with the
strength adquired during 8 years of decathlon training, and suddenly
the cork goes off as if greased, and there's nothing you can do to stop
your right hand, which smashes against your nose and succeeds in
achieving what 9 years of amateur boxing hadn't done...a broken nose.
|
837.988 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Mon Oct 15 1990 12:05 | 28 |
| RE: .981
The last Montjuich Park race was in '75. It is a narrow, dangerous track.
Due to numerous accidents amongst the front runners, Rolf Stommelen in the
Embassy-Hill found himself in the lead (you can imagine how many cars had
already been eliminated for Stommelen to be in the lead!). On lap 28
(I think), Stommelen unaccountably lost control of the car, it vaulted a
barrier and ploughed into some spectators (I think they were in a restricted
zone). One marshall, and a couple of spectators were killed, and many more
injured.
As a result of the outcry over the unsuitabilility of the circuit and the poor
organisation, it lost the F1 Grand Prix - and everyone heaved a sigh of relief.
If it's back on the menu then it MUST have been totally rebuilt - musn't it....?!
Couple of trivia bits 'n pieces. Half points were awarded, and Jochen Mass
happened to be in the lead when the race was stopped. This was his only
F1 Grand Prix win. I think that it was also the race where Lella Lombardi
picked up � point for 6th place - the only championship score by a woman.
Some of the above may be wrong - senility has long since set in - however it's
broadly correct.
Cheers
Steve
P.S. Where exactly is Magny-Cours?
|
837.989 | a few bits | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Oct 15 1990 12:47 | 17 |
| . Magny-Cours is located something like 30km south of NEVERS which
itself is located on river LOIRE approx 250km South/SE of PARIS
(RN7). The main reason to run the F1 GP there is that FISA expects
to attract visitors from the PARIS area.
. The information I got on Nannini's accident : the helicopter landed
and then for an unknown reason it jumped up to approx 100ft (30m)
and crashed inverted. Nothing about Nannini being in control. Info
said the helicopter pilot was in control, but that Nannin had just
bought the helicopter and was very interested in getting the license
to fly helicopters. The injured arm is his right forearm and right
hand.
. Barcelona : No, it's definitely not Montjuich park. Barcelona
people have built a brand new (full F1 specs) circuit. Can't remember
its name but it's not Montjuich.
|
837.990 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Mon Oct 15 1990 14:30 | 28 |
| One has to be realistic and assume that Donnelly and Nannini
won't be back in racing, the precedents going back as far as
Stirling Moss (and probably beyond) say that. Lesser categories
maybe but not GPs. I'll be happy to be proved wrong however.
An awful lot of drivers seem to be obsessed with flying don't
they.
So Moreno gets to fill in. Moreno has been around a long time and
has done well in minor formulae but his only previous appearance
in F1 that I can remember was a disaster.
As Lotus test driver he was called in to substitute for someone
at short notice (Mansell?) but failed dismally to make the grid
being by far the slowest man on the circuit. Has he driven in F1
on any other occasion?.
Article on Ken Tyrrell sowed gloom and despondency over the loss
of Alesi, the aerodynamicist chap, and the lack of a major sponsor
for next year despite having Honda engines. I still think they're
going to be a force to be reckoned with, and the wily old you know
what is playing it down. It also said that the new Jordan car is a
Tyrrell copy.
As regards the new regs, I would like to hear more detail of what
they are. Even so I have had things to say and wonder whether those
who are also interested might like to tell us what effects they
think the changes might have.
-John
|
837.991 | Moved by Mod | VOGON::MORGAN | Physically Phffftt | Mon Oct 15 1990 14:50 | 26 |
| <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
-< CARS_UK conference >-
================================================================================
Note 1258.0 NANNINI CRASH No replies
SHAPES::DIGGINSR 20 lines 15-OCT-1990 13:35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does anybody think with regard to the terrible news about
Alessandro (sp) Nannini the Bennetton F1 driver and his helicopter
crash. The last I heard he has had microsurgery to re-attach his arm
which was severed at the elbow. My brother in-law and I were
discussing the terrible effect it will have on his life if his arm
becomes useless. People like him would probably rather have died in
the accident then have to give up racing because a dehabilitating(sp)
injury stopped him. His operation was said to be a success eventhough
there were "more complications than one would expect" with it.
I really hope he can get back into racing because he truly was a rising
star in F1 and by all accounts a really nice guy. I bet we can think
of a few drivers who would be more worthy of such a catastrophe!:-}
What are you guys thoughts on the matter or do any of you know more
than I do!!
Russ
|
837.992 | Wow! That's a memory! Ginseng helps? | FRAMBO::LIESENBERG | Just order a drink, Tantalus! | Mon Oct 15 1990 16:28 | 36 |
| re .988
Hell, if "senility is setting in" you can't prove it by me...I was
there in that Grand Prix, and my foggy recollections were wrong. I gave
my father a call (in Barcelona), and indeed a) the last F1 Grand Prix
in Montjuich was in 1975 and b) it was Rolf Stommelen who ignored a
turn kamikaze-fashion and drove into a bunch of people with grisly
results. The only thing that continued in Montjuich for a while was the
24 hours for motorcycles, but this one was stripped from the world
championship, too, after a couple of unfortunate incidents involving
drivers and street-lamps which put an early end to some a promising
career...what a shame.
They've been re-building two circuits around Barcelona: In Calafat and
another one I can't remember. But it's a fact that for the Olympics in
1992 they'd like to use the urban circuit again to commemorate the
event, and knowing Bernie Ecclestone and Mr Ballestre, I have a
suspicion they'll go for the $$$$...
As for the rule changes, I always have a feeling there's a big outcry
saying F1 will lose its spectacularity etc, but in the end the cars
continue getting faster or remain just as fast as they were. I just
think that rule changes should try to create more competivity among the
teams and give the more humble ones a chance, too, and the FIFA is
failing in achieving this. For example, I'm fed up with the effects the
whole tyre-changing has...if the team bungles it, the best efforts from
the driver aren't enough. And it's the damn tyre-changing that might
have cost Le Professeur the title in the end. Barring the tyre-changing
and going back to more durable tyres would admittedly slow down the
lap-times a bit, but it would ADD spectacularity in the end.
Of course, this is only my opinion, for it's not even planned to be a
possible rule change, although the logic beats me: why did they supress
re-fueling, and why do they allow a tyre-changing that no doubt will
lead to some mechanicians get crushed by a car rushing in in the heat
of the race...??? It's just as dangerous and unnecessary...
Could anyone post in a list of all changes planned for 1991?
Best regards,
...Paul
|
837.993 | Danger in the pits | CHEST::RUTTER | J.R. | Mon Oct 15 1990 16:54 | 17 |
| re .992
� possible rule change, although the logic beats me: why did they supress
� re-fueling, and why do they allow a tyre-changing that no doubt will
� lead to some mechanicians get crushed by a car rushing in in the heat
� of the race...??? It's just as dangerous and unnecessary...
Tyre-changing 'just as dangerous' as re-fueling !!!??
I haven't seen tyres catch fire just because they were dropped at
the rear of a car (although the driver's temper might do!).
'Tis still likely that someone will get knocked over in the pit lane
at some time. Strange that the powers-that-be decide reversing is
dangerous in the pits, but full-throttle forward isn't ...
J.R.
|
837.994 | | MUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSY | FactInAnalyzingTheoriesFairly | Mon Oct 15 1990 17:03 | 22 |
|
I know I've said it before, but the biggest part of the danger in F1
pits is due to the prehistoric rules and procedures used. The sight
of hundreds of fellows loitering about (with no protective wall to
stand behind) not in Nomex but in bermuda shorts tends to blow minds
among American race fans (yes, I realize they're not fuel stops, but
still).
I don't know about outlawing tire changes, I kind of like the added
dimension of teamwork and tactics it gives, no to mention the extra
drama. And anyway, if they're gonna do away with changes they'll have
to move to hard compounds, and *that* in turn would mean going back to
high-downforce aerodynamics...
Whatever happened to Johnny Herbert? Is he discredited, ruined by
the foot injuries, what?
MrT
|
837.996 | | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Mon Oct 15 1990 17:08 | 12 |
|
Anyone watching the BTCC race from Thruxton on TV on Saturday would
have seen Jeff Allam towing his teams air wrench behind him.
The biggest problem with banning tyre stops is that a driver would
be instantly disqualified from stopping to replace a puncture (unless
some way of identifying a REAL puncture could be found).
Fuel stops are obviously more dangerous than tyre stops, but as .994
says the real problem is lack of control over who is in the pits.
Mark
|
837.997 | | BRABAM::PHILPOTT | Col I F 'Tsingtao Dhum' Philpott | Mon Oct 15 1990 17:15 | 15 |
|
In these days of ecologically sound sport is it really reasonable to have cars
running on compound that doesn't even last 200 miles? I suggest that not only
should they not be allowed to change tyres during the race, but they should race
on their (single set of) practice tyres.
Banning tyre changes doesn't mean a return to high downforce - it just means
competing within the defined formula.
I was talking to some folks recently who suggested that F1 should take a leaf
out of the book of competitive rowing, and introduce a "devil take the hindmost"
rule (ie when lapped you stop, or alternatively a blue flag means your race is
run), to avoid dangerous passing manouevres.
/. Ian .\
|
837.998 | 4-car races | CHEST::RUTTER | J.R. | Mon Oct 15 1990 17:24 | 15 |
| Re .997
� when lapped you stop, or alternatively a blue flag means your race is run
With the long-standing disparity in performance of F1 teams/cars, this
would lead to most teams spending very few laps before being taken off
the track - further reducing their chance of becoming competitive.
Think how much more boring these races would be if you had only those
top teams competing the latter 60 minutes of most races.
Just check the results listings to see how many cars end up one
lap or more behind the leaders...
J.R.
|
837.999 | | BRABAM::PHILPOTT | Col I F 'Tsingtao Dhum' Philpott | Mon Oct 15 1990 17:33 | 11 |
|
I agree they would quickly retire ... and yet race after race I hear
commentators talking about leading cars coming up behind "mobile chicanes"
whose "obstructive, bad driving" causes the leaders to take "fearful risks"
to get past.
They don't have a cat in hell's chance of winning, so what difference if they
retire in 20th place after 10 laps, or in 20th place after 67 laps, three laps
behind the winner?
/. Ian .\
|
837.1000 | Only people who win their first race need apply? | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Mon Oct 15 1990 17:35 | 7 |
|
One time no-hopers include Williams, Toleman (now Benneton) and
McLaren.
Presumably none of these teams are worth having on the track!
Mark
|
837.1002 | Midfield = Fun usually | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Oct 15 1990 17:57 | 10 |
| With the reallocation of pre-qual places coming up the lower places
take on a greater importance. For example, AGS's 9th place in Spain now
puts them out of pre-qual unless Dallara manage a 9th or better in
Japan or Australia. So far Dallara have only managed 2 10ths in the
past 12 months.
Removing lapped cars is not really on. In some races last season the
McHonda's lapped the whole field!
Paul
|
837.1003 | Everyone wants entertainment | NYTP05::JANKOWITZ | Lost in Wonderland | Mon Oct 15 1990 19:00 | 16 |
| You can't generally tell by watching T.V. but there's some exciting
racing going on behind the leaders. Every car out there is racing for
some position while only a couple are racing for first. Some of the most
exciting racing can be going on back in the field.
I think the NASCAR coverage shows more of what is happening on the track then
most other forms.
The answer is to deal with the moving De-Crasheris type chicanes. If a
driver is unsafe he should be removed from the race! There are passing flags
in SCCA and IMSA. I assume that they are also present in most other classes
of racing. If a driver doesn't observe a flag he should be penalized.
Besides, what would happen if you ended up with only two cars on the
lead lap and they crashed trying to pass each other? Or what if they
both broke?
|
837.1004 | What about an Andretti if F-1? | AD::YEN | | Mon Oct 15 1990 23:18 | 13 |
| With all this flurry of activity concerning Nannini and the next
prospective Bennetton driver, maybe after this year's loss to young
Unser in CART, Michael Andretti may reconsider his plan for next year.
After all, there was some talk about Michael signing with Bennetton,
but this was put to rest when Nannini re-signed. There's much to be
said of such a move on Andretti's part. He is a supremely forceful
driver, aggressive in the same manner as his father, but suffers from
poor luck and a few occasions of rocks-for-brains, not unlike my hero,
Nigel Mansell.
Going back to Benetton, though, maybe Thierry Boutsen might be
sending out a copy of his resume. He did well before with the team,
and besides, judging from the last few years, anything is better
than Equipe Ligier.
|
837.1005 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Oct 16 1990 10:24 | 9 |
| John, I disagree with you on Roberto Moreno. He's been F3000 champion
and he has appeared in a number of 2nd rate teams like AGS, Eurobrun
and I thought he did pretty well given these teams and the equipment
used. Give him 1st rate equipment and we'll see ...
Johnny Herbert is doing very well. He's competing in the Japanese
F3000 championship and he seems to have recovered from his terrible
crash of Brands Hatch (one more action by swiss kamikaze Gregor
Foitek).
|
837.1006 | J.H.'s back | OVAL::GROOMN | BOY - it's HOT | Tue Oct 16 1990 10:26 | 2 |
|
Herbert to replace Donnelly. -Ceefax 15/10
|
837.1007 | Moreno | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Tue Oct 16 1990 14:34 | 4 |
| Patrick, your additional information is interesting but what
exactly do you disagree about?
-John
|
837.1008 | Lets Hope all May be WELL | BPOV02::SCHRODER | | Tue Oct 16 1990 17:28 | 12 |
| One comment, about Nannini. I don't recall what note it was in but
it was said that he will never drive agian. that may well be, if the
surgury is not successful. But, even if he gets back something less
than 100 % of his former used of hand and forearm he may still be able
to drive a the F1 level. I might be wrong but I believe that J.P.
Beltiose drove well and he had one arm that was deforned in some way
from his motorcycling days.
Only time will tell I suppose but I wish Sandro well.
Mark
|
837.1009 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Tue Oct 16 1990 19:26 | 16 |
| RE: -.1
That's exactly right - Beltoise has got very limited use of one of his arms.
Didn't seem to affect him too much - his Monaco GP victory in the pouring rain
('73?) was a masterful performance.
I know one hill climber of the early seventies - David Good - who actually had
his left arm missing from the elbow down. He used to use the stump to hold the
steering wheel whilst he changed gear. He was really good in his McLaren -
usually in the top 5 after the run-offs, and I can remember him getting a
few wins.
I know that the physical stresses inside a modern F1 car are formidable -
however the above two examples give some hope....
Steve
|
837.1011 | No way will he be back | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Wed Oct 17 1990 09:54 | 12 |
| I tend to agree that Nannini won't be back. ITV Ceefax (equivalent to
The Sun!) quotes his father in an Italian newspaper as saying 'Sandro
has privately admitted he won't be back.
Given the fitness levels these guys work to, I can't see a 50% fit arm
standing up to the strain.
On the subject of disabled F1 drivers, one of the two drivers killed at
Spa in the same race in the early '60s (Stacey or Bristow I can't
remember which) had a wooden leg!
Paul
|
837.1012 | hand wringing time | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Oct 17 1990 12:20 | 14 |
| Sunday is looming, anybody have any realistic opinions on the outcome?
Portugal and Spain saw the second resurgence of the red car this year,
and with everything to shoot for maybe they can do it. I personally do
not think that they will be fased by Suzuka and all that goes with it.
The circuit suits the car, both drivers are well motivated (even
Mansell!), the �quipe seems to have pulled finger and there is room to
pass at Suzuka.
btw when was the last pole for Prost?
George Frost
|
837.1013 | :-) | OVAL::KERRELLD | | Wed Oct 17 1990 13:17 | 4 |
| Naninni racing again is about as likely as a fighter pilot with two false
legs.
Dave.
|
837.1014 | | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Oct 17 1990 13:25 | 3 |
| re: -1
or a diver with one lung.
|
837.1015 | Japan looms up | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Wed Oct 17 1990 13:53 | 14 |
| Yes, time for another race. Have things changed so very much from
last yesr?. I seem to remember that Mansell managed to get a
couple of inches of his Ferrari alongside Senna in Portugal
last year yet when they got to Japan the McLarens waltzed off
into the distance.
Realistically Senna should wrap it up but Prost is such a
competitor that he'll make him work for it. Senna can still
afford to come second though. But you can never tell in motor
racing, car failures, offs etc. can make all the difference.
Does anybody know when it's going to be on the tele (BBC)?.
-John
|
837.1016 | Senna. | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Wed Oct 17 1990 14:04 | 10 |
|
MN says 13.30 on Sunday 21st.
I plump for Senna sewing it up this weekend too. This IS McHonda's test
track after all! If they can't be at their on their own circuit where
can they?
Mark (Hoping not to have to get up at 3 in the morning for the Aussie
GP - In fact, not going to!)
|
837.1017 | Prost lambasts Mansells attitude | BRSRHM::WYNS | No reverse on my gearbox | Wed Oct 17 1990 14:12 | 12 |
|
Copied from the teletext
Worldchampion Alain Prost has renewed his verbal attack on Ferrari
teammate Nigel Mansell.
"The truth is that Mansell is not trying to be a good driver.
I do all the work and all he thinks about is playing golf.Then he
comes back happy and relaxed and enjoys the results of my hard work,
asking for the same adjustments to the car"
Prost told that at the Brasilian newspaper O Globo
Luc
|
837.1018 | So, what does he expect? | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Wed Oct 17 1990 14:24 | 4 |
|
Just Prost's normal end of season wingeing.
Mark
|
837.1020 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Wed Oct 17 1990 14:44 | 8 |
| There is however a big difference between Prost and Mansell
inasmuch as Prost is right.
Prost will be demob happy too as soon as the WC is decided.
He's going to Benetton as I said before. Trust me I know what
I'm talking about.
-John
|
837.1022 | | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Oct 17 1990 14:52 | 20 |
| re: -4
remember John that last year it was two Mclarens with Senna AND
Prost in the driving seats. Also 1989 was not a competitive year
for Ferrari.
re: last 2
As mentioned, Mansell is demob happy, relaxed and could'nt give a
sh*t for Prost and his complaining. I don't rate Williams with
Mansell next year for exactly the reason Prost apparently
mentioned - Golf.
Mind you even on a golf course Mansell will be under a lot of
stress.
It will be difficult for him to find a mechanical breakdown on a
golf course, to justify poor performance.
George Frost
|
837.1023 | y | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Wed Oct 17 1990 14:56 | 5 |
| I have occasionally something good to say about Mansell
and he is a very good golfer. The sooner he takes it up full
time the better.
-John
|
837.1024 | no jokes please, not NOW! | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Oct 17 1990 15:00 | 8 |
| re: 1022
Bloody h*ll, John, when did you mention it before?
That really is a thunderclap! more please!
George Frost
|
837.1025 | Moreno | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Wed Oct 17 1990 15:21 | 3 |
| John, I only disagree about the word "disaster". Having seen Moreno
in different cars on different circuits I rate his driving much
higher than that of Foitek, Jarvilehto, Alliot, ...
|
837.1026 | Well I Never.. | VOGON::MORGAN | Physically Phffftt | Wed Oct 17 1990 21:50 | 7 |
| Re .1009
David Good - Alive and well working in Hungerford. My wifes boss.
confirmed today that it is the same David Good.
Rich
|
837.1027 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Thu Oct 18 1990 09:49 | 14 |
| RE: -.1
That's good to hear. I watched him three times at the Great Auclum hillclimb
(Burghfield Common - before the housing estate arrived). As a spectator,
you could see his technique as he went into a banked right-hander. He set
the steering wheel direction and "locked it" by pushing down with his
left arm; at the same time he changed gear.
As I said before, he was very competitive and successful - not just a
make-weight.
Cheers
Steve
|
837.1028 | re last few | FTCVAX::SMITHS | | Thu Oct 18 1990 16:59 | 11 |
| Just a small defence of Mansell's lack of testing at Ferrari.It was
reported in the "Independent" by Nigel Roebuck who IMO is a good
reporter of the F1 arena.At the beginning of the current season Mansell
took a pay cut for the specific reason that he did not want to spend
much time testing.Ferrari must have agreed to this situation otherwise
they may possibly have terminated his contract.I can understand Prost's
displeasure at this,but he must also have been aware of Mansell's
contract agreement with the team.
steve
|
837.1029 | Day 1 at Suzuka | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Oct 19 1990 09:20 | 36 |
| Times off Ceefax this morning - they only had the top 15
Berger 1:38.374
Prost 1:38.684
Senna 1:38.828
Mansell 1:38.969
Boutsen 1:39.577
Alesi 1:40.052
The rest were in this order but I didn't jot down the times -
Patrese
Martini
Piquet
Nakajima
Suzuki
Warwick
Capelli
Moreno
Gugelmin - at 1:42.something
It looked like there was no pre-qual as there were only 31 cars
entered, so they could probably have given the Life a couple of laps
start!
Good performance by Moreno, but the big 4 are out on their own again.
Also looks like the Pirelli's are working well again.
Any body else got the rest or the order?
Paul
BTW - on Italian Ceefax (off cable) last night Nannini was quoted as
saying he'd be back in '92. Couldn't make out anymore as my Italian
stretches to Capelli and no further :-)
|
837.1030 | Dereks new drive.. | CMOTEC::HORNBYK | | Fri Oct 19 1990 10:24 | 7 |
|
Warwick joins Jaguar..."Autosport" Derek has an exclusive one year
deal with the team,and does not have a special option allowing him to
take any F1 opportunities which may arrise in the interim.
Regards Kev..
|
837.1031 | Oh hell, how unprofessional!!! | FRAMBO::LIESENBERG | It's supposed to be fun! | Fri Oct 19 1990 11:31 | 14 |
| re. 1028 Mansell's pay cut...
I'm not biased against Mansell, for he surely provided us with some
excitement some years back, but...I can't believe you seriously think
that taking a pay cut for not testing justifies this total lack of
professionalism! Hell, fine-tuning a car is what makes the difference
between a good driver that is just darn lucky to get in any results and
an excellent, consistent world class driver, and if a driver "doesn't
want to spend his time testing", he doesn't belong into an F1-vehicle,
period. I find this lack of professional attitude upsetting, and
wouldn't have expected Nigel Mansell to be like that. Not only is he a
nuisance to a team-mate who had a chance to win the championship, but
he's just hanging around in F1 for the money, with his heart in golf.
...Paul
|
837.1032 | wot chance? | ULYSSE::FROST | | Fri Oct 19 1990 14:24 | 10 |
| Time to take stock for the Suzuka race.
Does anybody out there, especially after the first practice times
posted in -2, think as I do that Prost can can win it from behind again
as he did last year?
I'm very fired up about another 1-2 for Ferrari... they are just
running exceptionally well at the moment.
George Frost
|
837.1033 | A Suzuka dream, tinted in Ferrari Red | CVG::SANTORO | Beantown Centurion | Fri Oct 19 1990 20:17 | 16 |
| ... here it goes! A Ferrarista in the lion's den.
re: -1
It would be real sweet, incredibly delicious. Beating Honda right
in their own turf, is something that all the 'Tifosi' would cherish
immensely.
Unfortunately, the keyword here is "would", which doesn't account
for the phenomenal and dominating power of the McLarens. I hope that
the race will be as competitive as prospected.
Forza Magiche Rosse!
Sara' mai questo, l'anno del Cavallino Rampante?
SMS
|
837.1034 | Lucky White Heather!! | KURMA::IJOHNSTON | | Sun Oct 21 1990 08:05 | 5 |
| Caught the start of the Japanese G.P this morning....
Senna crashed on the first bend and took somebody else off with him.
He was taking the corner tight when the other driver was on his out
side. Senna clipped his back and they both spun off.
|
837.1035 | sad, sad, sad | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Sun Oct 21 1990 18:12 | 20 |
| The someone was .... Prost !
Very sad conclusion of a very hectic championship.
Berger runs out at end of lap 1 (beginning of lap 2 in fact). Mansell
breaks transmission when restarting after pit stop for tyres.
Finish line
1. Piquet Benetton
2. Moreno Benetton
3. Suzuki Larrousse
4. Patrese Williams
5. Boutsen Williams
6. Nakajima Tyrrell
7. Larini Ligier
8. Martini Minardi
.....
|
837.1037 | Hard on Senna? | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Mon Oct 22 1990 09:35 | 16 |
|
I only saw the actual start of the race (and that only on the news),
but I didn't think that Senna really deserved the torent of abuse that
he has suffered for this.
He was on pole and Prost had to cut in from the outside to take the
corner. Senna seemed to be doing all he could (including almost driving
off the circuit!) to avoid ramming the odd-lining Prost, but there
was nowhere to go.
It was really just one of those racing accidents, but (like last year)
one driver had everything to lose and the other nothing and (like last
year) it was the driver with the most to lose who seemed to take the
biggest risk.
Mark
|
837.1038 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Mon Oct 22 1990 09:54 | 28 |
| My opinion:
Two very fired up drivers, with a lot of personal animosity between them. who
had both decided that they were going to command the first corner - regardless
of the consequences.
Prost clearly got the better start, and had a couple of car length's lead.
I think, that if he had moved over at this stage, he would have had the corner
to himself. However, Senna's more powerful motor pulled him alongside, and as
Prost turned in... crunch.
Technically, I think that Senna was at fault - in any other situation, the
corner would have been conceded to Prost, and he would have been content to
follow in second place. Prost clearly had the corner. On the other hand, if I
was Prost, I'd have been using my mirrors more carefully....
Just goes to show that they're (very) human - but are they worth $10-15m?
Like last year, there is a very sour taste.
I don't know how you can (or if you'd want to) legislate against this sort of
thing - maybe lock the drivers together in a room until they start talking
sense?
Good result for Piquet and Moreno - especially for the latter.
Cheers
Steve
|
837.1039 | My Two'pennath worth | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Oct 22 1990 10:03 | 23 |
| Congratulations to Senna on a deserved World Championship. Yes, he did
make a mistake yesterday, but as -1 said, Prost had everything to lose
and should have erred on the side of caution.
Congratulations to Benetton and Lola on great results, espec. Moreno
who proved his potential.
Congratulations to the organizers for resisting the pressure from the
great god TV and red flagging the race. If they had done that then F1's
creditability would have been shot for ever.
Raspberries to Berger for terminal brain fade, JMB for his "we know who
has crashed most over the past two years" quote. He is so clearly out
to get Senna, doesn't he see Alliot writing off 11 tubs this year, or
Piquet and Grouillard cruising in the middle of the track with Senna on
a flyer. JMB has perfect vision - of the tunnel variety!
Commiserations to Nigel for a very unlucky break - again!
Oh well, almost over for another year - maybe we'll have some relaxed
racing at Adelaide.
Paul
|
837.1041 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Mon Oct 22 1990 11:38 | 10 |
| >> Elaine made an observation about drivers after races..
>>She said Drivers are almost incoherent after the race for upto an hour and
>>seem incapable of reasonable thought. All drivers want to do is jabber and
>>babble about the race until they calm down.
Derek,
Does Elaine base her detailed (and accurate) observations on first hand
experience?!
Steve :-)
|
837.1042 | what to do about nothing | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Oct 22 1990 11:57 | 28 |
| Been thinking about one or two comments from the media and etc. after
the race.
"It is justice that Senna won this time after the same incident gave
Prost the victory last time"...... for me that is blurred thinking.
The problem is the 'dodgems' tactics.
note .693 mentioned a "rule" for overtaking. Is this valid, I mean in
the books or is it driver applied judgement?. Whatever somehow,
something should be altered to DISCOURAGE the dodgems. It obviously
cannot be stopped, but I reckon that it can be minimised since only a
few drivers are doing it.
What about a revival of the peer judgement system and championship
points being subtracted if merited?
JMB mentioned that Senna had won the championship because he has won
more races this season. The season is not over yet and had Prost won
yesterday that situation would have changed.
Mansell really does not belong, what a BARF.
I am satisfied that Senna deserves his new title. I am disappointed
that Prost did not take it since it was evident to me that McLaren
have been desperately hanging on for the last half of the season.
Should Prost and Ferarri stay together for the '91 season, the writing
is on the wall for McLaren - V12 or no V12.
George Frost
|
837.1043 | My first-hand experience! | VOGON::MITCHELLE | | Mon Oct 22 1990 12:04 | 12 |
|
re .1041 -
Yes, I base my comments on the club level drivers - I can't get a
sensible word from any of them! It takes several hours, (and several
repeats of the same information!) before objective, rather than
subjective discussion can start. The only problem is that for club
drivers, they have to load up the car, and then in most cases, drive
themselves home again. Thay should be forbidden to leave until a couple
of hours after the race :-)
Elaine
|
837.1044 | | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Mon Oct 22 1990 12:14 | 11 |
| � <<< Note 837.1042 by ULYSSE::FROST >>>
� -< what to do about nothing >-
� Mansell really does not belong, what a BARF.
Does this refer to an incident in the race?
I only saw the start on the news.
Mark
|
837.1046 | | MARVIN::RUSLING | Hastings Upper Layers | Mon Oct 22 1990 12:37 | 13 |
|
Mark, et al,
I think that George is refering to Mansell's booting it out
of a very quick pit-stop for new tyres only to find himself
freewheeling. For the life of me, I cannot understand why he'd say
this. Maybe I'm just not biased enough...
As for the punt that wins the world championship, I've looked at it
several times and I can't tell who was at fault. As for merely
shrugging one's shoulders and saying "Well Prost would have won
anyway", that just isn't good enough.
Dave
|
837.1047 | | LARVAE::MUNSON_P | Bo don't know Basingstoke | Mon Oct 22 1990 13:05 | 5 |
| On the first corner incident, did anyone notice how Senna, in his
attempt (half attempt?) smashed the nose of his car on the kerb before
actually making contact with Prost? Or was I just imagining it?
(��)Munce.
|
837.1048 | go play golf | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Oct 22 1990 13:20 | 35 |
| to the last 2.
I have run both incidents (Senna/Prost and Mansell) on stop sequence
on the VCR.
No more about the start of the race, but the Mansell episode boggles
description.
I'll try to be objective here (hard!).
Mansell is leading by a clear 6 seconds.
He pits, comes to a stop, and the crew go into a very choreographed
flurry of activity. At 5.2 seconds of the clock the jacks start
dropping, all arms are up...at 5.6 seconds there is blue smoke from the
rear wheels..at 5.8 seconds the faces of the pit crews start
registering what looks to be alarm... the car shoots forward,
hestitates, shoots forward again and dies. It looks as if the Ferrari
is only 1 or 2 meters from the entry to the race area of the track.
Now objective off.
I think, from the evidence of the amount of smoke, the reaction by the
pit crews almost before the car was moving, that Mansell hit the ground
with his wheels spinning and overpowered it in first gear...probably
was flustered for the gear change and broke it.
The fragile gearbox supposition does not hold true in my eyes since
- he has been driving it for two years now and as a professional should
know how to handle it....he even blows his starts from the grid but
his gearbox holds up!
- others handle it very nicely thank you
My opinion - the car has come on very fast in the last 6 months just
when Mansell has not spent any time with it (for whatever reasons), and
now Mansell cannot handle it.
George Frost
|
837.1049 | Simple explanation? | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Mon Oct 22 1990 13:23 | 5 |
|
Sounds like he'd already lost low gears and was hoping to get away
using a high gear to me.
Mark
|
837.1050 | Body language | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Oct 22 1990 13:32 | 8 |
| Could be Mark, but he was setting fastest laptimes consistently JUST
prior to the pit - difficult without a low gear.
His abject attitude (anger? shame? misery? digust?) sitting on the
tarmac beside the car with his head in his arms didn't help to solve
the reason for the mess.
George Frost
|
837.1051 | | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Oct 22 1990 13:53 | 10 |
| Forgot to reply to .1047
On the fast shutter sequence on the VCR the nose and right hand front
wheel of Senna's car are already over the curb before contact with
Prost is made and bits and pieces are starting to come off the nose of
the McLaren.
Of course Camera angle and all that.....
George Frost
|
837.1052 | | FORTY2::BETTS | | Mon Oct 22 1990 13:55 | 14 |
|
From the in car shots from Mansell's Ferrari, you could tell he still
had all the gears (including first, used at the chicane). I also
noticed that he didn't appear to use full revs away from the chicane.
I'd suggest he broke the transmission being too violent in first away
from the pit stop. Shame...
As for Prost and Senna; it strikes me Senna had nothing to lose by his
attempted pass (it being very unlikely that he'd go off and Prost
continue), and Prost couldn't afford to be bullied into conceding the
corner when he was clearly ahead.
Bill.
|
837.1053 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Mon Oct 22 1990 14:09 | 21 |
| Since the Ferrari and McLaren were very close in practice and
the Ferrari always seems to race better than the McLaren I
imagine that Senna was very worried that if Prost got out in
front that he could get away. Also there was last year to
'replay' with a different scenario. It didn't impress me
though, a blatant punt like that isn't the way to go about
things.
Thanks to good ol' nige for providing the biggest laugh of
the season, if you discount his retirement speech at the
British GP that is.
Moreno must still be in dream land, from DNQ to second place
in a week.
I think I only saw one overtaking manouvre in the entire race.
This was mainly because the cars outdistanced each other but
also the track is too narrow, which for a recent circuit is
a shame.
-John
|
837.1055 | Most boring procession yet | CRATE::RUTTER | Wot, no wheelspin | Mon Oct 22 1990 14:20 | 34 |
| Re .1053
� I think I only saw one overtaking manouvre in the entire race.
Think yourself lucky, I got fed up early on and missed that !
After the starting lap incident, I watched a few more laps. The 'race'
then developed into a procession, with a few seconds between each car.
With Nigel in the lead, I only wondered if he would win it, otherwise
it was bound to be one of the Bennetons which were following.
I went off to watch some 'heavy horses' ploughing a field,
that event was just as exciting !
It doesn't seem like I missed anything, with Mansell blowing his
gearbox in the pits - 'REAL RACING' eh ?
F1, what a load of crap...
My thoughts on the Prost/Senna incident :-
Prost had the line into the corner, Senna was catching him into it,
then did his usual trick - go for the corner anyway, the other driver
may get out of the way - with the resultant prang.
It does seem strange that nearly every accident Senna has, is of exactly
this same format. If Prost had let him by then, he would only have had
the prang later in the race when he tried to pass Ayrton..........
At least Senna did not appear overjoyed at the way he 'won' the
championship. Perhaps he and Prost will have a real race in Oz.
IF Prost wins the next one, would that make him the moral winner ?
As for Mansell, tough luck. He has winged so much in the past,
he deserves all the problems he gets, even though he IS a good driver.
J.R.
|
837.1056 | Move over Ivan | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Oct 22 1990 14:22 | 17 |
| Moreno now displaces Capelli as "reviver of the season". Capelli went
from DNQ to second at Ricard, Moreno from DNPQ to second. Maybe Roberto
will be offered a drive at Ferrari too!
As for Suzuka being too narrow, that didn't come across to me. The past
few seasons of GP racing have mostly seen races won from the front all
the way, from over-taking in the pits or very occasionally from out and
out battles with overtaking. The main problem at the moment is that if
you take pure horse-power out of the equation, no one team has much of
an aerodynamic advantage over any other, with the possible exception of
Tyrrell. Therefore all the cars work pretty much the same - Oh for a
Lotus 72, ground-effect or fan car to come along!
The other thing is "dirty air" which makes driving close-up to other
cars impossible - solve that, and you'd get far more over-taking.
Paul
|
837.1057 | circuit or runway ? | CRATE::RUTTER | Wot, no wheelspin | Mon Oct 22 1990 14:24 | 11 |
| Re .1054
� Silverstone is too wide what the point of corners that cars
� can take 6 abreast flat out. Derek_who_got_lost
Precisely, so when will Brands be given another F1 race license ?
I've been to Silverstone as a spectator before and have vowed never
to return in this same capacity. Who ever though of racing on an AIRFIELD ?
J.R. (by the way Derek, where is Cadwell Park ?)
|
837.1058 | | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Oct 22 1990 14:29 | 19 |
| I always like to look and see the results of a collision:
in this case, Prost spun violently (clockwise) off the track and then
was lost to view by the dust raised.
Senna ran straight ahead accross the apex of the corner (on the kerb)
into the sand.
Matter of interest....
Sailors get extreemly rustled feathers in tight spots during regatta
racing. The rules are very stringent and laid out geometrically. A
mechanism exists for skippers to object to infringements and the cases
are dealt with by the organising officials or the ruling body.
Now the officials don't get any closer to the point of impact in
yachting than those of F1 but the rule is discussion to resolve the
issues. Speed is a factor but in my mind is easily offset by the
"evidence" of camera coverage - often directly overhead.
George Frost
|
837.1059 | Senna in human being sensation! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Oct 22 1990 14:34 | 23 |
| A minor side issue for all off you out there who subscribe to Mr
Prost's views on life, the universe and Senna.
In interviews the evening after Donnelly's horrific crash, Senna
appeared deeply moved, recounting how he went to the scene of the
accident, and then back to his motorhome to seriously think about all
that had happened, he also described Donnelly as "one of us". Prost on
the other hand use the interview to make the point that he had known
something like this was going to happen, and that he had said Jerez was
dangerous last year. Not a single word about Donnelly.
Now I accept that interviews can be edited to suit the producer but
that little bit of television should prove to anyone that Senna is not
a mind-less hooligan, but someone who cares very deeply about F1 and
his fellow drivers, not the type of guy who would deliberately drive
someone off the track. Prost is a master politician and clearly has
JMBs ear, is it any coincidence that neither Senna or Mansell survived
a whole season on the good side of him?
Senna has been quoted that next season will either make or break Alesi,
I hope it is the latter for the sake of the *future* of GP racing.
Paul
|
837.1060 | Not all airfields are as bad as Silverstone! | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Mon Oct 22 1990 14:37 | 9 |
|
Re John Rutter.
Here, here about Brands, but Silverstone is an outstandingly bland and
boring airfield circuit. Snetterton and Thruxton (while not being
Brands Hatch or Spa) are both a lot more interesting circuits.
Mark
|
837.1061 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Oct 22 1990 14:44 | 11 |
| re .1055
I agree. Senna's accident in Brazil (with Nakajima) was very similar.
Senna was just - 10cm - too close.
The reason for my sadness is that I was expecting to see 1h45min of 2
cars chasing each other on a very difficult circuit with long curves,
etc ... I was even expecting this from the in-car camera carried by
Prost.
Maybe next year ...
|
837.1062 | A few flame-on/offs missing here today? | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Mon Oct 22 1990 14:44 | 14 |
|
There seems a lot of vicious sniping against drivers in here today.
Mansell is a BARF, Alesi must be broken! Lighten up folks, these people
bring a lot of entertainment to a lot of people and (unless Alesi drove
over Ron Dennis' foot in practice) don't really seem to have committed
any offences to be worthy of such attacks.
Mark
PS Did Jean Alesi murder your cat or something Paul? Or did he commit
some dreadful offense in practice that I missed? He couldn't have done
it in the race, he didn't start, but he isn't the first driver to miss
a race through a pratice-induced accident.
|
837.1064 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Oct 22 1990 14:49 | 13 |
| I wonder if the rest of you saw that :
approx. 5 minutes before leaving the grid (4:55 over here) the Japanese TV
showed Nelson Piquet strapped in his Benetton with a microphone and a
headset, talking live to Sandro Nannini still in the Florence hospital.
Piquet's car was flanked by a bid sign reading "Sandro, we miss you" in
Italian.
Short conversation between Piquet and Nannini in Italian.
(1h45 minutes later, the same Piquet crossed the finish line in 1st
position, I thought this was remarkable)
|
837.1065 | | CMOTEC::HORNBYK | | Mon Oct 22 1990 15:19 | 14 |
|
Saw the sign....makes you realise the sport isn't going completely to
the dogs.
Good result for Suzuki...probably felt a million $'s (literally)!
Seems to me Prost was stuck between a rock and a hard place, and had no
choice but to defend the corner against a very ragged Senna.
Silverstone are adding a new section between Stowe and Club corners,
this will be called the Vale. Quote Autosport "Grandstand seating is
being resited to give spectators the best view of what is bound to
become one of the worlds most exiting motor racing complexes!!!!!
|
837.1066 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Mon Oct 22 1990 15:24 | 19 |
| On this occasion, I think that Mansell started the car off before the back
wheels had touched the ground - 2000-14000 r.p.m. in rather less time than it
takes to say "I blew it". He probably pushed that interesting button on the
steering wheel rather too early. He had no chance to dip the clutch and recover
the situation once he'd done this!
Does anyone else think that he wasn't pushing the car in the early laps? I
was suprised that he only had a seven second cushion when he was over 2 seconds
per lap faster than Piquet in the morning warm-up. I think that he was too
laid back, and consequently put pressure on himself to complete the pitstop
a.s.a.p.
John Watson said that Williams will use their semi-automatic gearbox next
season, and that Mansell was looking forward to this... After being too hard on
his equipment in Japan and Britain, I'm not so sure....
Cheers
Steve
|
837.1067 | Ok, I'm cynical, but... | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Mon Oct 22 1990 15:26 | 18 |
|
� Silverstone are adding a new section between Stowe and Club corners,
� this will be called the Vale. Quote Autosport "Grandstand seating is
� being resited to give spectators the best view of what is bound to
� become one of the worlds most exiting motor racing complexes!!!!!
If your quote comes from this weeks Autosport it's a Silverstone
advert! They're hardly likely to admit that they are trying to restyle
the world's blanded road circuit! Comments like this were made about
the 'New' Nurbugring, but it turned out dull, dull, dull with the
spectators miles from the interesting corners.
All credit to Silverstone for trying to improve their circuit, but
it'll require a miracle to turn it into 'one of the worlds most
exciting motor racing complexes'. Maybe they mean they'll have very
exciting hopsitality suites.
Mark
|
837.1068 | Whoops - what a plonker! | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Oct 22 1990 15:28 | 15 |
| Re 1062
Sorry folks typograffical erra thingyumyjig
I meant - I hope its the former (ie it *makes*) Alesi.
Hides amid clouds of embarrassment.
I don't rate Alesi as highly as many, and consider him a little lacking
in the nouse department, but he is a very quick driver, and if he
learns at the same speed as he drives we should have another *real*
star in the show.
Sorry Mark!
|
837.1070 | | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Mon Oct 22 1990 15:30 | 5 |
|
S'ok Paul. I've been known to put my foot in it before now! :^)
Mark
|
837.1071 | Prost/victim Senna/villain | CARP::SHAUGHNESSY | Deputy Andy keelt Laura Palmer | Mon Oct 22 1990 23:01 | 27 |
| Why shouldn't everybody get the idea that intentional crashing has
become a routine tactic in F1? It has! This is the Senna Era and
two seasons ago he got the ball rolling and the game hasn't been the
same since. I mean, even poor Nige got into the act at Estoril, and
Berger has had the fever all year long as we know. How many suspicious
crashes of questionable benefit and timing (especially those 1st corner
jobs!) does it take before the public's credulity is tapped out? Used
to be a time when the lead car had the line through a corner, and when
because of the danger involved it was a gentleman's sport.
Whoever drew the analogy to sailboat racing is right on: At this extreme
point there needs to be a review commission process that applies a
clearly defined set of rules WITH PENALTIES such that the profit is
taken out of intentional maneuvers of the sort seen yesterday.
Prost and others have tried the "turn the other cheek" approach and
he persisted, so Prost does a "tit for a tat" last year at Suzuka and
I-Hear-A-Taunt keeps persisting. What's the diff?
Maybe the fact that Senna reacted with sobs and tears to Donnelly where
Prost reacted with detached cliches shows the difference between an
impulsive wild man and a very polished pro.
MrT
p.s., my only moment of joy yesterday was seeing Our Nige costing
himself yet another win by bocthing in the pits ;^)
|
837.1072 | Senna - Champion by right | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Tue Oct 23 1990 09:27 | 38 |
| Re -1
Senna's reaction was similar to Warwick, Mansell and all of the
journalist's I've read, and it wasn't tears and sobs but genuine
concern - Prost was making political points at a most inappropriate
time.
Anyway, this a m the paper quotes Prost back on his "he thinks he can't
die" track adding that he might retire. He also gets backing from the
French Minister of Sport who apparently wants the title with-held!
Can we get one thing straight (or at least in *my* opinion!) Senna won
the title on merit. They have both scored in 11 races, Senna is 9
points in front, Senna has won 6 races to Prost's 5, Senna has been on
pole more time, and has probably led far more laps than Prost. Senna's
retirements have been caused as follows -
San Marino - stone in wheel causes puncture
Mexico - puncture/tyre wear
Spain - holed radiator by a bit of AJS
Suzuka - over aggressive move on a certain Frenchman trying to clinch
the title!
Prost was on a long shot to retain the championship, and ahould have
protected himself. He's a great driver, but unlike Senna, Alesi, Berger
Mansell etc, he's not a fighter, he's a calculator of odds. That's won
him 3 titles and 40+ GPs so it can't be bad.
We'll still be up at 3am to watch the Adelaide race, because it is
usually entertaining, and we are GP junkies, after that it will have to
be videos of the season and races past 'til March!
Paul
ps
According to my calculations Patrick has stiched up all categories of
the competition - what does he know that we don't?
|
837.1073 | | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Tue Oct 23 1990 09:39 | 6 |
| � We'll still be up at 3am to watch the Adelaide race, because it is
� usually entertaining, and we are GP junkies, after that it will have to
Who's we? I won't!
Mark
|
837.1074 | Advert,yes sorry | CMOTEC::HORNBYK | | Tue Oct 23 1990 09:45 | 12 |
|
Yes it was the advert in Autosport.....Sorry I didn't want to undermine
Autosport,and I agree it will take more than the half hearted
modifications(the vale) to make it half as interesting as Brands.
I noticed they are taking bookings for 91 already.
Re Mansells pit stop....The wheels were not in motion when the car hit
the ground. Am I correct in the assumption that the clutch is used when
exiting the pits ie from standstill.
Cheers..
|
837.1075 | Wider circuits - then bring in the rules. | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Tue Oct 23 1990 10:07 | 57 |
| There's one big difference between yacht racing and motor racing - after an
"incident" in a car you don't usually have the possibility of continuing -
whilst flying a protest flag. On the odd occasion where someone does continue
(e.g.Japan last year), FISA have proved themselves quite capable of taking a
decision. This in theory is a good idea; however I'm not sure that they
are impartial - which is an indictment of the way that they're organised.
My feelings are as follows:
o The pressure to win has increased enormously over the last decade - and the
risks that drivers are prepared to take have increased as well.
o The major reason that drivers take these risks is because there are very few
passing places on the circuits. To take Senna's particular case, he has had
two "incidents" this season. Hungary (no proper overtaking places) - where
he tried to intimidate Nannini out of frustration. Japan, where he knew that
if he got the drop on Prost at the start, he'd pretty much be able to block
him for the duration of the race.
So, both sets of circumastances are around overtaking places - one which
could have worked for him (Japan), and one which worked against him (Hungary).
o Before drivers can be brought to book for their actions, many (most?) circuits
need modifying so that there are more overtaking places. We don't need to go
the whole way towards US style oval's; however something needs to be done.
Perhaps some sort of banking on corners so that there is more than one
racing line? Chicanes should be reviewed - they further reduce overtaking
opportunities. Why not increase run-off areas on straights rather than
slow the cars down artificially - there are two ways of increasing safety.
Circuits like Monaco are clearly an exception. They should either be removed
from the world championship or exempted as a special case.
o Only when this has been done should rules be brought in to dampen the
competitive spirit of some of the drivers. However, it should be done using
a clearly defined rulebook (as with yachting), specifying who has the right
of way and under what circumstances. For example, I think that there were the
makings of a good rule on Sunday - it was announced that
any backmarker who was not co-operative in letting the leaders past
would be blackflagged. Caffi was a candidate. Clearly something like this
would need to be formalised - how many corners/laps/minutes/holding the racing
line through a corner (instead of moving over) would constitute an
infringement?
The group that applies the rules should have legal training, and no personal
interest in the outcome. I suggest that FISA's upper echelons are not
suitable candidates - there always seems to be something of the air of a
kangaroo court when they meet.
To apply this sort of rule also implies a complex organisation of cameras
covering all parts of the circuit.
What does anyone else think - lets start with improving the circuits?!
Cheers
Steve
|
837.1076 | no F1 champion this year ? | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Oct 23 1990 10:34 | 7 |
| On TV last night: French Minister of Sports (Roger Bambuck) said that
he offers a "suggestion" to FIA/FISA president. Since everyone agrees
that something goes wrong with certain F1 drivers, why not declare that
the 1990 F1 world championship is declared null. Long live the 1991 F1
world championship !
Interesting idea ?
|
837.1077 | A good advert for the sport! PAH! | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Tue Oct 23 1990 10:35 | 4 |
|
And lets declare it void EVERY year a Frenchman doesn't win!!! :^(
Mark
|
837.1079 | | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Oct 23 1990 11:15 | 42 |
| A certain musing:
re:1072 Paul had the race (between Senna/Prost) been allowed to continue
my opinion says that Prost would have won. That being the case
points would have been equal for Adelaide.
Senna could not afford to let that happen. I believe that, with
the pre-race row over pole positioning, Senna was a very angry
man at the start.
Add to that his traditional VERY bad start at Suzuka
and it is easy to understand that he lost his rats when he
could not see the corner for Prost's car. So he lunged in
temper and as a consequence he has lost the respect of a great
many of his fans....yes it was deliberate in my opinion.
Unlike elsewhere, most Latin temperament countries recognise
the effect of blind rage and what it can do a normally
rational person. Noter .1075 mentioned Senna getting into
bother with, I think it was, Nannini at Hungororing. He
reasons 'frustration'. (I agree)
You active competition drivers know better than I what frustration
does to you in the seat. Rallying is bad enough.
Does nobody remember the fists flying two seasons ago - live
for the millions of viewers?
re: a previous note.
I had mentioned a black and yellow chequered flag in a
previous note. Now I vaguely remember this as a 'let him pass'
flag, much as the now touted black for back marker flags.
Circuits are a lot wider now than in 1950 and the cars have
about the same track. Speed differentials are also the same.
My opinion again - its not the circuits it is the press of big
bucks which causes dodgem style tactics.
re: BARF
A BARF, to BARF is sick or to get sick. If those of you out
there who don't know the word and who objected, still feel the
same, I shall rephrase my text to fit parochial spoken English
to " he make one sick".
George Frost
|
837.1080 | | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Oct 23 1990 11:21 | 8 |
| Replies come in faster than one can respond!
Very good suggestion from the last noter re the points.
Mark I think it is famous that we French can motivate our Ministers to
the point where they support our world class players. :-)
George Frost
|
837.1081 | A few bits | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Tue Oct 23 1990 11:42 | 41 |
| Re a few back
Mark,
If you want to come round to Croydon, you can watch Adelaide with "we"
that is to say me and 'er who is in control of the finances - Croydon's
most ardent Ayrton fan.
Re -2
George
If Prost had won he would not have been level with Senna 'cos of the
11 race rule. He would have been at best 2 points behind if Senna
hadn't finished second. If Ayrton *had* come second he would have been
4 points adrift. As we all know, Prost had to win, Senna did not, but
his racer's mind told him it would have been best to have done so.
Therefore two extra determined drivers both looking for the same piece
of road.
Re Circuits
Yup, couldn't agree more - lets have better circuits with better
overtaking places, and lets not go to places like Phoenix and Monaco.
If you look at Brands Hatch there are any number of overtaking places,
its just that the track is too narrow for F1 and the facilities not
good enough. I mean, they have only just put up catch fencing at
Druids. Its ruined the photo's but it makes the spectator safer.
Re Mansell
I reckon it was a bit of both - ie he over-booted it a bit, and the
transmission was a bit fragile. Either way, I felt for him on Sunday.
Re French Ministers
The guy has to say that - after all we all know that Prost will stand
for President when he retires!
Paul
|
837.1082 | | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Tue Oct 23 1990 11:56 | 8 |
|
Re .1081
Thanks for the offer Paul (:^)), but I'll be safely tucked up in bed
at that time! I might watch it if it's shown again in daylight hours
or I might ask the video to stay up and watch it for me!
Mark
|
837.1083 | | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Oct 23 1990 12:25 | 13 |
| Mark,
its a quirk of the French way of thinking that when someone
(French) gets to the top of a career and gets the limelight, the French
general public tend to knock him/her terribly.
This does NOT apply to the French press.
Curiously Prost really is NOT that popular in France, the afficianados
and press excepted.
I think the rest of the French noters here will agree.
George Frost
|
837.1084 | My view | COMICS::COOMBER | We come in peace, shoot to kill | Tue Oct 23 1990 13:46 | 38 |
| RE THE LAST FEW..
Dosn't it get up you nose when politics gets confused with sport, dare
I say its typical of the french.
I tend to aggree with George about Senna, his action sunday was nothing
less than intentional. Prost had quite clearly made a better start than
Senna . There is no excuse in the world that I would accept that would
justify what Senna did. I find it annoying that Senna is allowed to get
away with that kind of tactic.
Motorsport is dangerous enough without that kind of hot headed attitude,
and what is more annoying is that young drivers on the public roads see
the Senna antics and copy it. Unless I am getting old and past it,
surely the worlds ,supposedly best drivers , should be setting a good
example, not examples of dodgem's.
If Senna was any kind of a sportsman he would have played it out to the
end, not eliminate the oposition. If Prost beat Senna fair and square
at Suzuka it would have made the race in Austrailia that much more
exciting. But I guess If Senna had ties it up earlier people would say
the last few race were a waist of time, It would seem that most folks
are saying that Senna would have won anyway. NOT UNTIL THE END OF THE
COMPETITION.
I have no real favourite driver in F1 so the out come to me makes no
difference. If people want to see dodgems racing, watch NASCAR!!. F1 is
supposed to be the pinnicle of automobile technology with the most
skilled drivers, not a bunch of half wits who take out the other player
because they can't ( or doult they can) win. That is the kind of dumb
and stupid thing I would expect of some "GIZZA JOB, I CAN DO THAT"
driver.
If that upsets some folks, sorry but thats the way I see it.
Garry
|
837.1085 | | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Tue Oct 23 1990 14:33 | 29 |
| Some ideas on improving the racing, particularly passing.
I may have been somewhat unfair to Suzuka, it's not that
narrow but might benefit from another cars width being added.
However, contradicting what I said before, I'm not so sure that
just having wider circuits will really solve the problem. True
a wider circuit allows more variation in racing lines but there's
bound to be a limit.
The problem as I see it now is that with cars going through
corners at 100+ mph all the time most straights resolve into
nothing more than the exit line from one corner and the approach
to the next, with no overtaking options.
An alternative is to slow the cars down through the corners,
and preferably by a goodly bit. This would lead to closer racing
all round too I think. The new regulations are expected to go
some way in this direction, though I don't know by how much.
Where aerodynamics are concerned, limiting the effectiveness
of wings etc. usually results in more straight line speed thanks
to less drag and thus would increase the differential - more accent
on braking, accelleration and drivers.
Apart from being easier to pass at a slow corner the reduced speeds
should be good for safety and reduced car damage. All in all good
for the sport as a whole.
-John
|
837.1086 | | OVAL::KERRELLD | | Tue Oct 23 1990 14:36 | 17 |
| Re. Senna/Prost incident.
I think it was accidental. Prost got clear away at the start and (IMHO)
assumed he was safe for the first corner thus moving left to the centre of
the track to take the racing line. Senna is very quick into corners with
spectacular late braking and fine judgement of a cars handling with cold
tyres and a full tank, (IMHO) he thought he could beat Prost on braking
into the corner (Senna is often much quicker at the start of races ).
Re. Mansell.
I am not convinced by the evidence that the failure was Mansell's fault.
It was a shame for one reason, with fresh tyres he would have been
challanging the Bennettons for the lead, which would have made a more
exciting finish than the procession we saw.
Dave.
|
837.1087 | Its all beginning to get to me! | BPOV02::SCHRODER | | Tue Oct 23 1990 15:00 | 15 |
| This may sound extreme, but at some point in some other such
incident, or accident what ever you would like to call it someone
may pay the ultimate price, their life! Ego's grow even larger with
the amount of money we have in F1 at stake today, speed merchants NO
speed marketeers!
Sometimes I feel like none of it is about racing at all anymore its
just a question of max return on investment, for the highest possible
stakes, the drivers lives.
Pissed Off!
Mark
|
837.1088 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Oct 23 1990 15:30 | 10 |
| Has anyone noticed that the 2 Williams (often quoted to be level with
the top teams) powered by an often quoted top engine were way behind
the 2 Benettons and ... the Larrousse Lamborghini (driven by local
star Suzuki, definitely helps) ?
Since the retirement of the 2 Ferraris and of the 2 McLarens the leader
has been lapping around 1mn46sec which is damn slow. Prost and Mansell
with full tank lapped in around 1mn42sec during the warmup session ... !
Patrese however managed best lap in around 1mn44sec
|
837.1090 | Needs a bit more thought. | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Really Manic Information Centre | Tue Oct 23 1990 15:41 | 7 |
|
But it would be very easy to have your teammate INVOLVE one of your
opponents in an accident and lose him 9 points. Maybe this is why
De Cesaris and Nakajima are still in F1, they're waiting the chance to
be the most sought after number 2s!
Mark
|
837.1091 | Ben Hur? | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Wed Oct 24 1990 20:44 | 9 |
| According to a quote in a Swiss newspaper today, the coming together was
Prost's fault. Senna says that it was all down to Prost: He (Prost) knew that
if they collided then the championship would be over for him. Therefore he
should have backed off because he still had 53 laps to get past Senna.
I try not to read things into statements; however if you look beyond this
statement to what it (possibly) implies about Senna's attitude to collisions,
then it is a bit worrying to say the least...
|
837.1092 | Blast away I don't Care | BPOV04::SCHRODER | | Wed Oct 24 1990 20:53 | 2 |
| It was simply a Chicken SH*T!! move on Senna's Part!!
|
837.1093 | The MN editorial on the Prost/Senna incident | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Thu Oct 25 1990 09:02 | 39 |
| Quoted verbatim and without permission from Motoring News'
editorial this week :
Motor racing is dangerous. We saw that in Jerez and we saw it in Road
America. It is dangerous enough without drivers taking silly chances
trying to perpetuate their belief in their own immortality.
A year ago, Ayrton Senna and Nigel Mansell collided spectacularly in
Portugal when the Briton went for a gap that the Brazilian closed. Last
weekend in Suzuka, the roles were altered as Senna tried to go for a
gap that prost closed.
In the Mansell incident, Senna was vociferous in his criticism,
suggesting that Mansell's action could have killed both of them. Yet in
Suzuka, he condemned Prost for doing exactly what he himself had
believed right last September.
Perhaps we are merely simple, unable to grasp the nuances of each
situation. Or perhaps Ayrton has different standards at different
times. What we know is that such incidents do nothing for the
credibility of the sport in the eyes of the world, nor to encourage
upcoming racers to drive cleanly. Last year, FISA was wrong to launch
its witch-hunt against the Brazilian ; this year, it is equally wrong
to propose no form of action in the wake of what the majority of
observers would have no hesitation in deeming a thoroughly reckless
manoevre.
I agree with that. It deprived us of what was potentially the race
of the season and decided the championship in an utterly stupid manner.
I am sure Prost knew he would have a problem if he didn't get away
smartly and smoothly and into the first corner first. He couldn't
really do very much about it - how do you protect yourself from
kamikaze bids like that.
Oh, and I'm glad Mansell's misfortune caused such delight among
some of you. Heads I win ; tails you lose. Gotja, Mansell.
Colin
|
837.1095 | | FORTY2::BETTS | | Thu Oct 25 1990 11:08 | 7 |
|
Derek, while I agree with the sentiment and would like to see
unsporting behaviour discouraged, I can't see the point of
motor sport if people don't try to win and to stop their
opponents winning! (or did I misinterpret your last para?)
Bill.
|
837.1097 | Ayrton is a disgrace to the sport | FRAMBO::LIESENBERG | It's supposed to be fun! | Thu Oct 25 1990 14:16 | 38 |
| Seriously, I can't believe the words "Prost should have protected
himself"... what the hell is F1 turning to? Why not arming Senna's car
with machine guns, so he can intimidate the other drivers more
efficiently? MUST other drivers clear the line just because they know
that they have a dangerous lunatic behind them with a reputation for
NEVER backing off in a turn? It's disgusting.
Facts: Prost had clearly the edge on Senna. In such a situation,
WHOEVER is behind is supposed to be professional enough to notice
there's NO way he can get through. Is the guy IN FRONT supposed to say
"uh-oh, there's Ayrton, I guess I better let him through before we end
up in the ditch!". Do you want drivers to win the title based not on
skills, but on kamikaze-like recklessness that scares the other drivers
stiff???
Before Senna, there were quite a few drivers who had a renown for
aggressiveness and being dangerous, but they were cussed out of F1
sooner or later. Things have changed since Senna broke in. With his
style he guarantees to his sponsors being in front AT ANY COST, which
unfortunately has turned out to be an asset in these times where F1 is
ruled by million$$$.
Definitely, Senna should spare us with his concern for the injured
driver, for he is the one that repeatedly displays a total lack of
concern for other driver's health.
Prost's professionality and integrity as driver's spokesman HAVE made
the sport more secure for the drivers.
Whoever criticizes Prost for being "too cool, a calculator" obviously
lacks an insight into the history of the sport, for most of the
greatest champions ever were exactly like that, and that's exactly the
way a truly great F1 driver is supposed to be.
ANY of the F1 drivers can drive fast, just as fast as Senna does, for
that is NOT the difficult part of the sport. It's coping with the
pressure, mantaining your cool in critical situations, being mature and
displaying regularity which make a champion...and Senna does not
fulfill any of these requirements. He's not worthy of following the
tradition of the Prosts, Stewarts, Laudas, Fangios etc. The attitude he
personificates is a disgrace to a dangerous sport like F1, and could
ultimately cost F1 the credibility it has left.
He ought to take up helicopter flying a bit more often, if you ask me.
...Paul
|
837.1098 | Rules and regulations | HAMPS::LINCOLN_J | Where sheep dare | Thu Oct 25 1990 14:30 | 31 |
| New rules would be a hot potatoe few would want to handle.
If races and the resolution of championships etc. were to
be resolved in 'courts' rather than on the track there
wouldn't be much of a sport left.
Few people would bother to take any interest, advertisers
would depart and the whole thing decline into nothingness.
The only action that really needs to be taken is already
available, but underused ie. fines and race bans. Changing
points awards won't achieve anything. Races should be decided
on the track, if some drivers, or conceivably teams, exhibit
unnacceptable practices then perhaps they should be obliged
to sit it out for a while. This, losing them advertising
exposure will concentrate their minds wonderfully.
It would still however be extremely difficult to judge these
matters, which is probably why the rules aren't enforced. Last
years two 'incidents' were both based mainly in legal terms on
rules (black flag, short cut) not on an assessment of the
collisions that also occurred.
The less intervention the better, but some policing is inevitable.
Enforcing it however is likely to cause more rows than the
incidents themselves.
Making it easier to pass would reduce the incentive for many
of the clashes that we now see.
-John
|
837.1099 | agrrement... | COMICS::COOMBER | We come in peace, shoot to kill | Thu Oct 25 1990 14:44 | 21 |
| re -1
I couldn't aggree more. For me that hits the nail right on the head.
Last night on midweek sports on Itv they interviewed Ron Dennis and I
caught a gimps an interview with senna. The bit I caught was senna
saying that he had seen a gap and went for it. He continued to say that
other drivers should know that is how he drives or words to that
effect. That to me says it all, If he seriously though Prost was going
to pull over and let him through on the strenght of that then someone
needs to feel his bumps. As you might have expected Ron Dennis was
right behind senna and went on to say that he and may other prople
involved in motor sport thought he was the best ever. I am one that
does not go along with that , he is fast, that I will agree with but as
for his skill in commanding and calculating manovers he's in my view
not too smart.
No point in drivelling on most of what I think has been said.
Garry
|
837.1100 | | FORTY2::BETTS | | Thu Oct 25 1990 14:48 | 7 |
|
.1097
Generally, I almost agree with the sentiment; shame about the poor
taste of your parting comment.
Bill.
|
837.1101 | | SUBURB::SAXBYM | No! Never heard of 'im! | Thu Oct 25 1990 14:54 | 26 |
|
Neither Prost nor Senna really have any right to complain about
this.
Basically Prost cynically pulled over on Senna in Japan last year and
took the championship. Senna (unsurprisingly) isn't mature enough to
put such a thing aside and basically took great pleasure (I was shocked
by his arrogance as quoted in MN) in reversing the situation (I have
now revised my opinion on the crash, Senna decided not to waste the
afternoon driving round).
Neither of these drivers can be considered good ambassadors for their
sport, but most top level sportsmen are jerks if you look carefully.
It's a pity, because Prost was one of they who had maintained their
dignity, but his recent outbursts have put paid to that.
Is Senna the best? I remember watching him in F3 when Martin Brundle
was able to outrace him on regular occasions. In fact Senna's advantage
faded rapidly once Brundle's team got their car working properly.
So, Senna (IMHO) is very good, but appears to be the best simply
because he always has the best car (don't cite Toleman as an example,
a lot of drivers can be inspired on the day and racing in the rain
needs a very particular set of skills).
Mark
|
837.1102 | Its always Mr Nice and Mr Nasty | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Thu Oct 25 1990 14:59 | 33 |
| Re last few
Couldn't agree more on improving passing places, at the moment, drivers
are forced to take risks out of frustration (a la Hungary) that sort of
initiative has to come from FISA.
As for Senna being dumb -
anybody who can come up with the sort of contracts he's got is
definately not dumb! There is also a strong theory among the hacks that
it is the fact that he is so intellectual that makes him so distant and
disliked.
He must be rated as one of the greats, two championships (and he won
this years on 14 races remember), 20 something race wins including some
in duff cars like the Lotus-Renault, 50+ poles, and an incredible
consistency of results.
Prost is also one of the greats, but for me he is too dispassionate, it
comes across as just another day at the office, just like Stewart and
Lauda. That's why my heroes were Rindt, Peterson, Villeneuve, Clark,
Regga, Jones, Rosberg.
Senna *is* clearly No 1 at the moment - he's driving an ageing if
developed car with an ill-handling chassis but lots of horses and
grunt. And he still wins.
Last word on Suzuka, Senna tried it on, no question, but Prost was wider
than usual at the corner, and if the straight had been 100yds longer
Senna would have been through on power.
Paul
|
837.1103 | | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Thu Oct 25 1990 15:20 | 24 |
| >>
>>FRAMBO::LIESENBERG
>> ANY of the F1 drivers can drive fast, just as fast as Senna does, for
>> that is NOT the difficult part of the sport. It's coping with the
and...
>> So, Senna (IMHO) is very good, but appears to be the best simply
>> because he always has the best car (don't cite Toleman as an example,
>> a lot of drivers can be inspired on the day and racing in the rain
>> needs a very particular set of skills).
>>
>> Mark
nah! don't agree, as Paul (.1101) said Senna was setting pole consistently with
the Lotus (which was rarely up to the job in the race). So he had to work to
get good machinery (McLaren) by proving his ability. (NB. i'm not insinuating
the lack in ability of other drivers with decent cars here)
...art
|
837.1105 | Bring back the gentlemen drivers, mon ami mate! | VOGON::DAWSON | Turn ignition on - Turn brain off! | Fri Oct 26 1990 08:41 | 32 |
| Most of this has already been said but I think two things need to
happen in F1 : 1) reduce the ground effect of the cars to reduce
cornering speeds and the turbulent air effect (some of this will happen
with the extension of flat bottoms in 1992 but I think tyre widths
should also be drastically reduced as well) ; 2) empower the Clerk of
the Course to take immediate action to stop bad driving habits (eg as
perpetrated by such notables as de Crasheris) by black flagging,
disqualifying and, eventually, banning from following races (as in
football).
Re "the incident", Senna was the perpetrator, in my opinion. It was
obvious to me that, had Prost got through the first corner in front,
Ayrton would have had one hell of a job getting past and very possibly
would not have made it. However, the rules as applied today did not
deter him in the slightest for going for half a chance (and that was
all it was, folks as Prost pulled slightly wide for the best line
through the corner) in the knowledge that if they both went off he
would win the championship. If he knew he would get a "red card" and
may miss the first race of next season, that may have given him a bit
more patience and less aggression.
I also fail to see how blame is apportioned to Prost in this - it
was his corner. Senna was so far back when he started his charge that
it would have been impossible for him to have pulled it off without
Prost's full cooperation. This is exactly the same tactics used at the
Hungaroring to such good effect and that went unpunished as well!!
I think Senna got away with it only because the uproar of depriving
him of the championship would be greater than that over the incident
but what a way to win a major title. I think it stinks!
Colin
|
837.1106 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Fri Oct 26 1990 09:20 | 16 |
| I can see Grand Prix teams growing so that they have a group of specialists in
their team to help the leading driver - rather like in the teams of 9 riders in
the Tour de France.
My candidates for support drivers would be the following:
- Berger as the "hare" to the set the pace - you know that he won't last the
race; however he can pull you along nicely.
- Patrese as the "widest" competitive driver in F1 - he can hold up the drivers
behind you
- De Cesaris as the ultimate weapon. If your rival has still escaped
into the lead, then you can rely Andrea to redress the balance for you.
:-)
Steve
|
837.1107 | Good for sponsers? | CMOTEC::HORNBYK | | Fri Oct 26 1990 10:21 | 15 |
|
While driver/team confrontaion reigns within F1.....Yes it is very bad
for the SPORT from our point of view, being more than interested in
motor racing/F1.
But what about the sponsers? Some of them must think its Christmas
the monday after a race...Half page spreads in some of the dailys,
TV news etc. The type of high exposure they dream of. I just wonder,
will sponsers be happy supporting a team/driver who are damm unpopular
(in some circles) or even regarded as cheats! I don't think it can go
on much longer, money talks in F1, it would be ineresting to know how
the sponsers feel about all of this.
Cheers Kev
|
837.1108 | | ULYSSE::FROST | | Fri Oct 26 1990 14:11 | 7 |
| Mr Saxby!, hurra, hurra its what I've been saying for some time.
Senna wins F1 1990 only because he drives McLaren.
What I find superb is that Prost gets to within 1 race (or 9 points)
driving a car that was not competitive (with the McLaren) last season.
George Frost
|
837.1109 | | ULYSSE::FROST | | Fri Oct 26 1990 14:18 | 3 |
| Mr Simpson! I'm astonished hurra, hurra the same sentiments as well!
George Frost
|
837.1110 | Ferrari spokesman | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Fri Oct 26 1990 14:29 | 8 |
| Yesterday Mr Agnelli (FIAT big boss, some even say the boss of Italy
...) has made an official statement entirely based on Prost's
declaration at Suzuka.
Basically he declared approx. "we make huge investments in F1 and we
cannot accept to see our investment disappear in a cloud of smoke after
8 sec in a race", "the F1 governing body has to set rules and has to
stick to these rules","that's the condition for us to continue in F1"
|
837.1112 | | ULYSSE::FROST | | Fri Oct 26 1990 17:29 | 16 |
| c'mon .... everybody breaks rules if they can get away with it, citing
1963 is a little off, no? Agnelli probably was a sprog then and had
nothing to do with Fiat.
I would like to see your previous suggestions put into place and an
on-going (during and after each race) assessment taking place,
preferably by peers. Certainly a "protest" system introduced much as
in Regatta rules.
Appropos regattas, the money spent in R&D and racing for 12m boats is
as high as F1.
Controversy still exists but the public still view the sport as a
'gentlemans' occupation. I see no reason why the F1 cannot return to
the same image it had when Graham Hill was around.
George Frost
|
837.1113 | So much to say about an 8 second race! | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Fri Oct 26 1990 18:26 | 26 |
| RE: Widen the tracks -- there will still be one best racing line. And
Senna will ram anyone on it.
RE: Who's to blame? I love F1, but have neither the photgraphic
memory nor the obsession for stats of some other noters. Therefore,
I'd really be interested to see someone run down the instances
involving Senna during the past two years (the 3.5 formula). I do
recall (I think) the very first race last year, when Senna and Berger
(then Ferrari) collided., Berger said that he had the line and Senna
assumed he'd give it up. Berger pointedly commented that Senna had to
learn that Berger, unlike many others, would not simply hand Senna the
position.
The behavior of the McLaren driverS this year has been a disgrace. And
I hate to see Prost dragged through the mud because he is rammed by
Senna. As I offered some weeks back, the driver responsible for the
contact is literally putting the other driver's life at risk. Does
anyone out there really believe that Prost was endangering Senna in the
first turn at Suzuka?
The answer? Ferrari should "cheat" and bring back one of the Brambilla
brothers.
Agnelli had a point. F1 would be a little bleaker without Ferrari.
DOn
|
837.1114 | accident management should not be part of racing | BROKE::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Sat Oct 27 1990 02:13 | 51 |
| Well, I'm late in the game, but that's no reason not to voice my
(useless) opinion.
I've been a little surprised by some of the notes I have seen here.
Some people seem to consider accidents part of normal race tactics.
Arguing that Prost is to blame because he should have expected and
guarded against an accident is to me unacceptable.
Here is a parallel: I'm in some meeting at work, say a budget
discussion. If I don't like the way things are going, I just get up an
start hitting at someone who disagrees with me. And of course, that
person gets the blame: since he was winning the argument, he should
have expected my reaction, and guarded against it.
Not acceptable. Race tactics should not be permitted to included
accidents. Racing is about racing. Accidents are to be avoided. And
shoudl have nothing to do with winning a race. Mixing considerations of
who is to blame with considerations about WC points standing is not an
acceptable argument.
Who is to blame depends on the situation at the time of the accident.
If I understand the rules right, the guy on the outside owns the corner
if at the moment of coming into it, his front wheels are in front of
the other guys. The inner man is deemed to have succeeded with his
passing manoeuver, and thus own the corner, only if his front wheels
are in front of the outer guy.
From that point of view, Senna is undoubtly at fault: the accident
happen with Senna's front wheels hitting Prost's hind wheels. The same
goes for last year's accident, and also goes for Senna vs Nanninni, and
Berger vs Mansell. Seems clear. Who is standing where in championship
points has nothing to do with it.
Now of course, there is no inforcement for these rules. So either
gentlemanliness and peer pressure is enough to enforce them, or you
have chaos. If the sport is not up to enforcing those rules, surely it
needs more explicit ways of doing it.
I hope next year sees rules that will make such behavior penalizing -
if that is indeed the only way to get rid of it. The analogy with
players getting ruled out of football games, or yatching seems
relevant.
Most of this has been said in the last few notes, but I couldn't
resist.
One last note: this does seem a very fitting end to the season: this
year's WC clinched his title in a very fitting way: he won not by
driving faster of better than his oponent, but by his uncanny ability
to push people off the road...
|
837.1116 | Still some humour left in F1 | BACK::haycox | Ian | Mon Oct 29 1990 10:20 | 8 |
| Read from somewhere and paraphrased,
After Suzuka the Mclaren team celebrating victory in the hotel bar.
Senna, not known for drinking, walks in and orders and drink. Holding the
drink up to the team says 'Prost.... well thats what they say in Germany
isn't it.' :-)
Ian.
|
837.1117 | Bring back the gentlemen-drivers!!! | FRAMBO::LIESENBERG | It's supposed to be fun! | Mon Oct 29 1990 11:42 | 22 |
| re .1112
"I see no reason why the F1 can't return to the image it had when
Graham Hill was still around..."
Hear, hear! It's a pitty the sponsors don't grasp this...
For one, I am continously losing interest in F1, and I prefer to look
around in the books I got as presents when I was still a kid but could
have told you the technical data of every vehicle circling around on
the Montjuich circuit...bring back the Jacky Stewarts, Graham Hills...
and I don't know why, but Henry Pescarolo had a very special spot in my
young racing fan heart, too. They'd never dreamed of cutting off the line
ungentlemany, even if ten championships had been on the stake...
Which brings back the memory of a very potentially brilliant french
driver who died much too young whose name I couldn't remember this
weekend during a conversation...Cervere or so, can someone help me out?
(I know my elder sister cried tears when he had that accident, for he
was damn handsome, too...)
...Paul
P.S.: Please forgive my excessive sarcasm with the helicopter remark
about Senna. Was just my black humour running away with me! My
sincere apologies to anyone who felt offended.
|
837.1118 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Mon Oct 29 1990 11:50 | 6 |
| RE: -.1
Francois Cevert, Tyrrell driver killed in practice on the eve of the final
Grand Prix of the 1973 season. Very promising fdriver, and nice fellow into the
bargain. He was Stewart's team mate - consequently Stewart didn't take part in
what would have been his 100th, and final Grand Prix.
|
837.1119 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Mon Oct 29 1990 11:53 | 2 |
| On the chapter of sisters : Fran�ois CEVERT's sister is Jean-Pierre
BELTOISE's wife.
|
837.1120 | "Progress" in F1 | DELNI::SKARZENSKI | | Mon Oct 29 1990 14:12 | 8 |
| In an interview telecast on ESPN over the weekend, Senna implied Prost
was to blame because "he didn't open the door." Remember when "closing
the door" could sometimes cause an accident (but usually didn't)? Now
the driver who doesn't get out of the way is under suspicion.
Maybe the WSPC will be worth watching next year.
Don
|
837.1121 | | ULYSSE::FROST | | Tue Oct 30 1990 09:55 | 15 |
| re: 1120
Senna made that comment right after the 'accident'. He
said, more specifically, that Prost was to blame because Prost knows how
he (Senna) drives and knowing that Prost should have given way.
Prost was as miffed as hell and his comment was to the effect 'what am
I doing (wasting my time) in F1 if for whatever I do someone just
pushes me off?'
Sounds fair comment to me.
With the dust settled, what forecasts for Adelaide? Anyone brave enough
out there?
George Frost
|
837.1123 | Rules & Rulesmakers | DENVER::MALKOSKI | | Tue Oct 30 1990 14:41 | 24 |
| There is a lot of emotion on the topic of this year's championship.
It's pretty hard not to be emotional about people like Senna. Aside
from that, regardless oft he outcome, what's really needed is clear
rules and even handed application of them. But it's hard to expect
that from FISA. When I see JMB suggesting rule changes for '91 so late
in the season I see another indication that the sport is in the wrong
hands. His suggested changes were not bad, just poorly timed given the
development of next year's designs. FISA needs an overhaul, not the
tracks, IMO.
As for a return to the days of G. Hill, that sounds nice but is
clearly unrealistic. Here in the US CART puts on a heck of a show,
with strong competition, generally intelligent rules handling, and they
still take care of the sponsors. The drivers are sportsmen, as well as
businessmen, as well as entertainers. That's reality. And I believe
that they do a good job. Are the cars as technically interesting as
F1? No, there are to many restictions. But the racing beats the heck
out of F1.
In Australia, Prost will return to the podium for his 45th win. Piquet
will be in the top 6, and Alesi will finish a race.
Paul
|
837.1124 | De-mob fever. Who IS in the house? | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Contentious? Moi? | Tue Oct 30 1990 14:54 | 24 |
|
Andrea De Cesaris will win his first race and immediately be signed to
replace a retiring Prost.
Prost will then reverse his decision after being offered an 8 figure
sum to race for Life racing.
Senna will not qualify after being forced to drive behind a track-wide
phalanx of irate F1 drivers for the entire of both sessions.
Alesi will be punted of by his team-mate who will go on to take second
in the race.
Mansell's gearbox/engine/driveshafts will all stand up to the race, but
he will sustain a high speed puncture caused entirely by debris from
above incidents. Someone in this conference will still blame Mansell
for being too hard on his car!
Honda will announce a revolutionary Double-X 20 cylinder engine with
pistons the size of thimbles to be raced in the back of Senna's AGS
Honda in 2033.
Mark (Oh and I won't be here to comment on the ACTUAL outcome! :^))
|
837.1125 | in the eye of the storm | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Oct 31 1990 11:41 | 17 |
| OK all you humour mongers, where are the serious predictions, or have
you all lost F1 fever after the Suzuka/Senna pod.
Adelaide is not to my mind a circuit which favours Ferrari, but having
said that and considering that the car is well tuned, I do not see any
reason not to propose another Senna/Prost battle.
Btw. I anticipated that Senna would be involved in an accident in this
season which would injure him and take him out of the championship
running after about four or five races.
I was wrong about the severity of the accident.
I still see him as accident prone - wether he provokes it or not.
He did calm down though mid-season only to come back raging mad (temper
wise) at the end of the season.
George Frost
|
837.1126 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Wed Oct 31 1990 12:38 | 8 |
| If its raining, then all bets are off.
If not, then I'm going to take Mansell to win - he'll feel that he's got
something to prove before rejoining Williams. Berger, who will start from pole,
will be very fast until he pits for new tyres on lap 8, and Prost and Senna
will become intimately aquainted for the second race running. Alesi's accident
will be very spectacular this week - even by his own high standards - and will
involve tyre marks being left on Patrese's helmet.
|
837.1127 | Prost #45 | OASS::BURDEN_D | He's no fun, he fell right over | Wed Oct 31 1990 13:19 | 9 |
| Prost will win, Senna will have lost his motivation and will not be in a
'fighting' mood.
Looking at Alesi's results in the last few GPs he's due to finish this one.
From Hungary it's been Accident-Finish-Accident-Finish-Accident-Skipped. Then
you could also say he would have finished Suzuka if he started so he's due
for a wreck this time....
Dave
|
837.1128 | Ferrari to quit F1? | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Contentious? Moi? | Wed Oct 31 1990 14:50 | 15 |
|
Anybody got any comments on Ferrari's threat to withdraw from F1?
Chances are it's as hollow as all the old threats, but apparently Fiat
are keen to get out of the terribly expensive F1 and no doubt would
make a VERY welcome addition to the fast ailing WSC.
Will we see Ferraris back at Le Mans in the coming years or is it just
an empty threat?
Mark
PS Donnelly is now sitting up in a chair and Naninni is making
unexpectedly good progress too. I wish them both well and hope they
can race SOMETHING again one day.
|
837.1129 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Wed Oct 31 1990 15:27 | 8 |
| Another improvement to make racing better. How about making the cars narrower -
7 feet+ (2m 15cm) is a lot - so that the passing car can be nearer to the
racing line? Also how about enclosing the wheels so that cars don't get
inextricably entwined so easily? I know, someones going to call this Group C !
:-)
Steve
|
837.1130 | Ban single seaters with open wheels? | SUBURB::SAXBYM | Contentious? Moi? | Wed Oct 31 1990 15:43 | 7 |
| Re .1129
Good idea. Then the cars can rub bodywork in corners without it
being the end of the race. I doubt THE accident would have ended the
race if C cars had been involved.
Mark
|
837.1131 | 1st Day Qualifying at Australia? | JUPITR::JROGERS | | Fri Nov 02 1990 12:43 | 3 |
| Has there been any word about Friday's qualifying in Australia?
Jeff
|
837.1132 | Fridays Qualifying | CMOTEC::HORNBYK | | Fri Nov 02 1990 13:03 | 13 |
|
Fridays qualifying
Senna
Prost
Alesi
Patrese
Mansell
Can't remember the rest.
Best...Kev..
|
837.1133 | FISA safety commission | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Fri Nov 02 1990 13:27 | 41 |
| I read the following - anyone any more details?
FISA has set up a special safety inquiry commission to invetigate the 1990 F1
season, following Ayrton Senna's controversial title victory in Japan.
A report, to be compiled later this year, will "judge the role of all
participants - organizers, stewards, officials, teams, and drivers", FISA said.
The governing body said that the results of the review will be used to decide
who gets a licence for the next Formula One season.
FISA said that the committee will have "full power to examine documents and
testimonies on 1990's 16 Grand Prix."
FISA said that it was setting up the watchdog body "following technical
developments and the behaviour of certain drivers" in recent months. The move
also comes after Ferrari complained to FISA about Senna's crash with Alain
Prost.
FISA said that there had been "incidents and accidents implicating several
drivers" and that "the image of the world championship, which should be
exemplary for the sport, has deteriorated"
The commission will also look at possible rule changes for 1991.
Who's got the low-down on this - there must be more information in the UK?
(Mind you, French TV was full of the Sun's interesting treatise on the French
nation in general, and M. Jacques Delors in particular - so maybe there isn't
enough room left for anything else?)
My thoughts?
All well and good - provided it is impartially done, and not an emotionally
charged witch-hunt. However, what about Donnelly? If its a safety commission,
then surely this must be a big (the biggest?) issue - or do you only need these
committees for problems where money (sponsors/teams) talk?
Cheers
Steve
|
837.1134 | Nice one, Nigel | CHEFS::OSBORNEC | | Sun Nov 04 1990 19:05 | 14 |
|
Nice one, Nige......
Great to see a really good race for a change, with the real prospect of
an upset.
Would have loved it to be Nige/Senna at that last corner. Bet Mansell
wouldn't have bothered too much with hard braking then!
Always good too see a man nearly as old as me win 2 races on the trot.
Perhaps I'll go & get the kart or one of the motorcycles back on the
track ........
Colin
|
837.1135 | Some Detail | SKIWI::EATON | Marketing - the rubber meets the sky | Sun Nov 04 1990 21:37 | 30 |
| Piquet
Mansell
Prost
Berger
Excellent race. Mansell at his best, fast, somewhat inconsistant, brilliant.
5 laps more and the results would have been different I think. After Mansell
had cooked his tires, I thought he was finished, but the newer tires certainly
made a difference over the closing laps. He gained over 15 seconds over Piquet
in 8 laps.
Excellent drive by Piquet - he's certainly changed. The Benneton/Ford with
a in-form driver is certainly quick over this sort of circuit.
Senna did well until his brain-fade. No excuse for that sort of lapse of
concentration. The early tussle with Mansel was good viewing.
Prost didn't appear that interested, but showed his class by making his tires
last twice as long as Mansell. Ferrari were running softer compounds than
McLaren.
Berger never really in it.
I am getting tired of the Walker/Hunt commentary. I find myself continually
disagreeing with their comments and observations about the race in progress.
e.g. It seemed to me that Mansell cooked his tires, necessitating his pitstop,
but Hunt talked about him ruining his brakes.
Neither of these two gentlemen seems to be members of the Prost or Ferrari fan
club.
|
837.1136 | | BROKE::BERRY | sleep is for parents that eat quiche | Mon Nov 05 1990 00:51 | 68 |
| Really nice race.
Passing made a hell of a lot of difference. Prost got stuck behind
Berger, who was very effective in keeping him behind. In-car shots
really show the difference between the cars: McHonda decidebly had a
huge advantage on acceleration out of each corner.
Beautiful end of race, with great driving both by Picquet and Mansell.
the way Piquet picked up the pace when he had Mansell on his tail was
quite impressive. Seemed to be awefully quick, pushing his car to the
upmost. I would like to have the times on those laps.
This result is going to help fuel our inter-season contraversy: all
things equal, had the crash not occured in Suzuka (and had Prost gone
off to win the race, which is probable, but not certain), the same
Australia result would have changed the championship result... On the
other hand, Senna might have been more alert.
I was a bit disapointed by the professor: he seems to be in a very
aggressive mode (of the track, that is), and his start looked a little
early to me. He generally leaves the likes of Berger for that kind of
tricks.
BTW, one last word on "the incident": our commentators kept comparing
the two Suzuka incidents, that both clenched the championships. They
dont' point out one of them (the fact that in both cases, Senna was
clearly at fault, trying to compensate poor driving with crashing).
The similarity has limits: the championships were decided in both
cases, but last year, the accident did not change the result: with
Prost in front and 6 laps to go, Prost had every chance to win, and to
pocket the championship anyhow. This year, had the race continued in
the same manner (Prost was in front on the first corner, and seemed
significantly faster on warm-up), that could have made a significant
difference. The other difference is that last year, the world champion
got his title *despite* the accident. This year, the world champion got
his title *thanks* to his ability to crash his opponents out of the
racetrack (other incidents like Hungary also helped...).
To a spectator, this makes a hell of a lot of difference: last year,
there was a driver out there with unexcusable habits of pushing
opponents out (or, according to his comments, bullying them out), but
the championship was earned by racing ability alone. This year, the
crasher won, which sheds a very different light on the respectability
of the sport, and its ability to set and enforce minimal security
rules, as well as rules to make this a driver's championship - not a
crasher's one.
Of course, there is no good way out for the FISA now: barring Senna
from next year's championship doesn't seem adequate, and changing the
result of this year's is not very decent. The only decent attitude
would have to set clear rules (like last inter-season, instead of this
ridiculous bout to try to have Senna present public excuses to FISA),
and them enforcing them right there and then (after the incident with
Nannini, for example). I like the idea of negative points, or of the
Soccer-like exclusiong from one of several next events.
So whatever FISA does, they will look kind of stupid. Let's only hope
they swallow their pride (what a mouthful), and do the right thing: set
clear rules, and explain exactly how they are going to enforce them.
And forget about this sad season, cause it's too late to do anything
about it now...
Hope this gives us a nice '91. I also hope Senna and Prost are there,
with clear enough ground-rules so that the best at racing will be the
'91 champion...
JP
|
837.1137 | Well driven NElson and Nigel | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Mon Nov 05 1990 08:04 | 44 |
| On Eurosport, interviews about the Japan accident:
Senna. I messed up - it was a bad piece of passing judgement on my part -
which I regret.
Prost. I am 100% certain he tried to ram me. He didn't even make contact with
my wheels - but the rear wing - it was a straight run at me.
Watson. (My view). 2 focussed drivers - animosity etc. Senna mainly at fault;
however Prost should not have left a gap for as long as he did - he know's what
Senna's committment is like!
Stewart. Not for the first time, Ayrton's mind was not in control of his heart.
His experience will - or should have - told him that the gap that he was going
for was not going to remain there throughout the corner.
Fortunately, it was not a bad accident; however if the wheels had touched then
either car could have been launched 30 feet in the air. F1 does not need this
at the moment, and it is dangerous. Senna should be punished severely to stop
this sort of thing becoming accepted practice.
As for the race yesterday.... Notice how every leading driver had an "off" at
some stage or other?
Let me get my Mansell bashing in first - Monday morning doesn't seem complete
without a bit Sun quality journalism! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Mansell messed up and was lucky to be able to get back to the pits to change
his tyres. This is just typical of the man. Senna went off on dirt created by
Mansell swinging wide the previous lap. Prost and Berger had their "moments" on
a part of the circuit that didn't matter - they knew this from watching the
televised antics of Mansell in the same corner during the morning warm-up.
Piquet was unlucky to lose the 5 seconds with his off - it was caused by the
back marker - who in turn was feeling nervous because the reckless Mansell was
coming up fast.
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Steve
P.S. Well driven everybody (especially Piquet and Mansell) - and thanks for a
clean, exciting race.
|
837.1138 | | GOOGLY::KERRELL | Dave Kerrell NEW B1/2-2 774 6185 | Mon Nov 05 1990 09:05 | 11 |
| re.1137:
>As for the race yesterday.... Notice how every leading driver had an "off" at
>some stage or other?
5 out of the first 6 went off at sometime. The exception was Boutsen (he
may have gone off, but I didn't see it!).
Wouldn't F1 be boring without Mansell?
Dave :-)
|
837.1139 | I declare this note closed (pending witchhunt!) | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Nov 05 1990 09:07 | 48 |
| Great way to finish off the season. Good drives from Mansell, Piquet
and Senna (before he missed a gear or whatever).
Snooze-along-Prost clearly wasn't with it, neither did Berger seem to
be. As for Mansell being harder on his tyres than Prost - yes he was
because he locked them all up when he went off, that tends to take a
lot of the rubber off them.
Re last few, and the various interviews -
Sorry whoever said it, but Senna was not at fault at Suzuka last year.
The chopper shots clearly show Prost turning into him.
Steve - I didn't hear Stewart mention Senna having to be stopped,
dangerous for the sport etc, but then it was 2.30am!
Both commentary teams seem to be on Senna's side rather than Prost,
Hunt more forcibly than most.
As for Mansell not braking at the last corner if it had been Senna,
sorry, but those two like each other now and even flew off from a
recent race together. Personally, I reckon they have developed a
healthy respect for each other's driving.
As for Prost's "people come to see racing" bit, yes I do go to races,
even in the wet, when Le Prof doesn't bother, and even when Prost's car
doesn't work well, when he also doesn't bother.
Anyway, I reckon it has been a great season. 4 different cars winning,
and 6 drivers, and it could have been more - Alesi/Tyrrell in Phoenix,
Capelli/L House at Ricard and Nannini in Germany and Hungary. The right
man won the title. Next year should be even better, with more
competitive cars, its just a shame there aren't more races.
Memory of the season?
Capelli and Gugelmin running 1/2 at Ricard, Warwick walking away at
Monza, Senna in qualifying at Jerez - my first live Senna special, and,
unfortunately, Donnelly at Jerez as Andretti said after Peterson died
-"Unfortunately, motor racing is also this"
Get well soon Martin and Sandro, make the Jag fly Del Boy, but get back
to F1, and test that Ilmor Leyton House - me and 'er indoors want you
on the podium next year.
see you in the '91 note!
Paul
|
837.1140 | Didn't see it but... | UNTADI::PAGE | Master of Desired Performance | Mon Nov 05 1990 10:32 | 3 |
| I assume Piquet won because he went the distance without stopping ?
Dave
|
837.1141 | | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Mon Nov 05 1990 11:54 | 10 |
|
>> Steve - I didn't hear Stewart mention Senna having to be stopped,
>> dangerous for the sport etc, but then it was 2.30am!
He didn't say that Senna should be stopped - but punished. Yes, he did say that
it was dangerous, and that 'the sport doesn't need this' (which I interpret as
being bad for the sport!). I wasn't up at 2:30 in the morning - I taped it
instead. ZZZzzzzz......
Steve
|
837.1142 | Nelson won properly this time | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Mon Nov 05 1990 12:04 | 8 |
| re -2
No, Piquet won by staying on the track. Only Mansell of the leaders
stopped for fresh rubber after going off and spinning. Piquet ran a
strong third getting Mansell after he went off and inheriting the lead
when Senna crashed.
paul
|
837.1143 | best for many a year! | ULYSSE::FROST | | Mon Nov 05 1990 12:52 | 7 |
| A very good race, a very good season, if only for one reason - FIA/FISA
make an effort to get some clear cut rules out there for '91.
If penalty points are imposed what are the odds on Berger, Senna,
Mansell, Alesi loosing points next season?
George Frost
|
837.1145 | Ban Senna and/or Prost! | AD::YEN | | Mon Nov 05 1990 15:06 | 15 |
| I may be looking for trouble on this one, but the Piquet/Mansell
tussle in Oz reminded me a bit like the first lap tussle of the week
before, except that the pressure (or maybe Senna's personality, though
I shouldn't say) of a title made the two drivers involved in the latter
incident play a game of chicken. The Piquet/Mansell thing was
brilliant; F-1 at its best. Kind of surprising, what with the past
state of Piquet/Mansell relations. In any case, I was pleased to see
brilliant but clean racing and wonder myself how much better F-1 would
be if Prost and/or Senna were to be banned or suspended such that title
pressure doesn't neutralize their brains. Certainly, the fact that
Piquet and Mansell can race so cleanly underscores the degree that Prost
and Senna have become downright reckless in their zeal to outdo each other.
Besides, with them out of the way, some one new can run away with
all the spoils (poles, fast laps, wins, as well as the title). [Go
Nige!] But seriously, this rivalry has taken the fun out of F-1!
|
837.1146 | lend me the video? | KERNEL::ROE | 3.16 - know what I mean, John? | Mon Nov 05 1990 18:01 | 6 |
| I missed what sounds a thrilling race. If anyone in Basingstoke caught this on
video, may I borrow the tape? I'm on 833 3912.
pretty please!
Mike
|
837.1147 | or should this be in the trivia topic? :-) | VOGON::MITCHELLE | | Tue Nov 06 1990 08:43 | 4 |
|
Does anyone know what the music was that was played by the BBC during the
'summary' of the seasons events - both after the grand prix itself, and
then again after the highlights in the evening?
|
837.1148 | | VOGON::ATWAL | Dreams, they complicate my life | Tue Nov 06 1990 10:06 | 1 |
| i think it was a track by REM don't know what it was called tho'
|
837.1149 | | MARVIN::RUSLING | Hastings Upper Layers | Tue Nov 06 1990 10:10 | 42 |
|
Sorry, I don't know what the music was, however, I liked it too.
I thought that it was an excellent race; maybe I'm in a minority, but
I like Mansell, Hunt and Walker. Hunt and Walker both say daft things
and Hunt bangs on about how drivers should behave in a gentlemanly
way, maybe I like them 'cos even I can disagree with them...
The high points for me?
Mansell charging/dramatic tyre stop/Mansell charging.
Prost being a gentleman and letting Mansell past whilst holding
up Berger a tad.
Senna slicing through traffic.
Great on-car camera work.
Piquet charging once Senna had come off.
Mansell having one last (desperate) go which didn't result
in an off.
I only wish that Prost had tried harder and that Senna had not come
off. Maybe then Mansell would have caught the settled-for-Second place
Piquet; although I doubt if he would have caught Senna.
End of season thoughts?
Senna is good, very very good. Perhaps the current best. I
just wish that he'd stop being involved in stupid offs.
Mansell is a prima-donna, drives balls-out and sulks.
Prost is technically superior to either of the above, but lacks
their fire.
Aleisi - when will he stop crashing?
Berger - when will he settle down and learn something from
Senna? Same car and always 2/3 places behind Senna.
Piquet - what a comeback, being paid for points is obviously
the way to go.
Ferrari - how disorganized can you be and still compete?
Mclaren - obviously it wasn't just Prost getting the cars
properly set up, but the other cars are catching them.
Benneton - the team to watch next year.
Dave
|
837.1150 | Let's hear it for the red necks.. | CHEFS::OSBORNEC | | Tue Nov 06 1990 12:32 | 12 |
|
I'm a Mansell man - & Colin Milburn, Ian Botham, Gazza, Chilcott, & all
those people who are red-blooded, egocentric, extrovert & similar to me
(apart from the fact they are good at something). The superbly skilled,
no-charisma, sportsman is always a sad prospect to a spectator -
difficult to identify with. Let the lads charge on - & if they care
enough to sulk, we're all human & I'd burst into tears!
Biggest chuckle is listening to James talking about the good manners of
other drivers. I was on track with him when he started racing, & his
manners weren't very clever. Wasn't known as "Hunt the Shunt" for
nothing.
|
837.1151 | | MUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSY | Deputy Andy keelt Laura Palmer | Tue Nov 06 1990 21:12 | 53 |
| The unreality of it all is best symbolized by Watson's unbelievable
argument that it was Prost's responsibility to avoid being crashed
from behind by the venal ruthless Senna. Rules are rules, and in the
post-Senna era they've become secondary to what you can get away with,
which is apparently one helluva lot.
To sum:
Kudos to Prost for letting the childish Nigel by even though he owed
him one big-time.
Both Suzuka crashes happened with Senna coming up from behind - and
given the slow speed of the one last year Prost's block was just that:
a block.
Senna is a dangerous man. I'd pay money to get a tape of him being
upbraided by Jackie on British TV last week. If Senna were to begin
following the normal rules of passing his string of poles would end
and he'd win fewer races.
Senna's brain fade is common for him, going off while 28 seconds ahead
pulling fastest laps even though everybody saw that he had a handling
problem.
Berger's stock has dropped considerably, and the only reason Dennis
is retaining him is because his level of pride is perfect for accepting
the role of "blocking back" for Senna.
F1's credibility has been damaged because Balestre was too timid in
taking on Senna because of the power held by Dennis and, especially,
Honda.
McLaren won the '90 Constructor's with and end-of-life engine and an
end-of-life chassis and a #2 driver performing much worse than his
predecessor. Even Berger will win races next year with the new V-12
and new MP series.
The B-teams will be better, with Tyrell and his V-10 Honda and Ligier
with Lambo power and the second Ferrari team. Look for Williams and
their unimpressive FW13 to fade a bit, especially with the hard-on-
cars "our Nige" screwing up both in the pits and on the track.
RETRATCTION: As a former "bash Neslon Piquet" bandwagon rider, it's
become apparent after Warwick and Donnelly that it was that the Lotus
was that bad and not that Nelson had lost it. He had a good car this
year and did a great job.
PREDICTION: FISA will back down from Senna yet again next year and with
the V-12 power he'll win the Driver's in a cakewalk while race organizers
encounter declining attendance and trouble from TV networks for the first
time in memory (integrity and competition woes).
MrT
|
837.1152 | Engines | SKIWI::EATON | Marketing - the rubber meets the sky | Tue Nov 06 1990 23:14 | 9 |
| re: new engines next year
Anyone have any information on the new Honda/Ferrari/Ford/Renault engines
for next year ? I know Ferrari and McLaren have been testing the new V12s
this year - does anyone have comparative times for them ?
What are Ford and Renault planning - are they going to stick with V8 and
V10 engines ? The Ford V8 has progressed impressively over the season,
it was fast on the Adelaide circuit...
|
837.1153 | Nits Nits Nits | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Wed Nov 07 1990 08:38 | 34 |
| Re -2
Mr T
No point in defending Ayrton to you I suppose? ;->
Anyway, a couple of nits. Senna's off in Adelaide was caused by no
gears at the rather crucial point of cornering. It was exascerbated by
having little left in the way of front brakes after changing the
balance to fend off Mansell, which left him braking with the gear-box.
Re Mansell - Next year Williams will have a new car, the FW14, which
Nige and Patrick Head claim in rather different. Lack of effort on the
FW13 at the end of this year is rather understandable.
Re Driving standards
Can we *please* not just knock Senna and Berger - did anyone else see
Grouillard and Piquet cruising in the middle of the track having an
arguement at Jerez and Senna almost flying into them on a flyer, or de
Cesaris blocking Berger on a flyer, or any number of Aliot specials, or
Bernard driving very slowly *across* the track on a blind corner in the
middle of the race at Suzuka, or de Cesaris blocking Mansell at Imola,
I could go on. But the ultimate must be Grouillard's response to
Mansell claiming he had been less than helpful when being overtaken. He
in turn said that Mansell should try racing in his car! Presumably the
lack of power and poor handling means that he hasn't time to look in
his mirrors.
Flame off ---- I welcome FISA's committee, so long as its made up of
qualified people and doesn't turn into a Senna witch hunt like last
year.
Paul
|
837.1154 | | VOGON::MITCHELLE | | Wed Nov 07 1990 09:25 | 7 |
|
I agree with Paul - if the Senna/Prost incident had been between two of
the 'lesser' drivers, it would probably have been forgotten about!.
Also, with Prost and Senna out of the race, the cameras and commentry
can concentrate on some of the interesting battles further down the
field!
|
837.1155 | | JUNO::WOOD | Scalpel, scissors, replace head ....... | Wed Nov 07 1990 10:11 | 8 |
|
An interesting thought was raised by a note a few back, about Grouillard saying
Mansell should try driving his car. So, what about putting some of the "worst"
drivers into the "top" cars, and the "top" drivers into the "worst" cars, could
make for an interesting race.
Alan
~~~~~~
|
837.1156 | | LISVAX::BRITO | | Wed Nov 07 1990 12:15 | 7 |
| re: .1153 - Couldn't agree more with your words, Paul. Actually this
topic is becoming more and more boring with the permanent accusations
against Senna. It looks like the Prost syndrome - it wasn't my fault,
it was the car/it was Senna/it was Mansell/it was Ferrari/it was */I've
got tapes, - has caught this topic.
RUI
|
837.1157 | Balestre | ULYSSE::FROST | | Wed Nov 07 1990 12:32 | 25 |
| Taking Prost abd Senna out of the race is tried and true - Suzuka, and
we were treated to a VERY dreary (apart from funnybone Mansell) race.
Bring on the rules, if they are good enough and if FIA can enforce them
I look forward to a very good '91.
As a matter of interest (and contention no doubt), for all of his
rudeness, megolomania, idependence etc., I think F1 has come on
enormously (in terms of spectator interest, revenues, technology) since
Balestre has been in the chair.
Now don't get heated you Balestre haters, I am not voting for him, I'm
simply saying that to give him his due he works very hard for F1 (much
more so than most of us in our chosen professions), he has many many
years of motor racing experience as competitor, marshall, organiser,
journalist and what have you.
He also has the ear and support of a suprising number of F1 etc.
competitors and manufacturers.
So until another worthy puts his name forward for the job he will get
my nod.
Just musing........
George Frost
|
837.1158 | | MUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSY | Deputy Andy keelt Laura Palmer | Wed Nov 07 1990 15:51 | 42 |
| You guys may be bored with the Senna thing, but the media, drivers,
ex-drivers, FIA administrators, and television commentators seem to
regard it as a legitimate subject. As for the "Senna witch hunt" of
last year, lest we forget:
- He'd spent the two previous years chopping his only competitor
at the starts
- And crashing his competitor at the first turn
- He blazed past 9 black flags on a qualifying lap with an injured
driver on the course.
In sum, he's changed the game, and in an ugly way if you accept the
opinions of the likes of Jackie Stewart, David Hobbs, Piquet, and other
credible analysts. Even "our Nige" and the hapless Berger have caught
the crashing fever.
So now we have the onset of the post-Senna era, with legalistic review
having replaced honor and sportsmanship.
The other on-track incidents and near incidents are normal racing
events that've been around for decades and will continue to be around
so long as some cars are faster than others and some drivers are better
than others.
At Bandol I was able to spend some time with Satch Carlson, an American
race writer. When asked how Senna could be so much faster in qualifying
and race traffic, Carlson immediately answered that he'd asked many F1
pilots that very question and they unanimously - but anonymously - said
that he is given a wide berth on the track because everybody knows that
if one doesn't sacrifice the his rightful racing line to him he will
crash from behind, period.
That's both expensive, dangerous, and troubling. Senna's crashes are
both purposeful and profitable. They explain a significant portion of
his success. If he didn't commadeer the unique set of personal rules
his record, both in qualifying and in racing would be more mortal.
He's a bug.
MrT
|
837.1159 | This is getting silly | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Wed Nov 07 1990 16:25 | 19 |
| Sorry mate I can't let this pass - I cannot believe wnat I just read!
Senna finished in 11 races out of 16 last year. His retirements being
due to a failed tyre, a failed wheel hub, a holed radiator, and two
accidents - one of which was caused by gear-box failure. In other races
I can recall two incidents, one with Naka, in which he was blameless
(IMHO) and one with Nannini which was his fault.
Let us recall that Aliot trashed over 10 tubs this season.
As for 1989, I can only recall one "chopping" incident with Prost, plus
the Imola disagreement on first lap tactics which was merely an
overtaking move. The incidents with Mansell and Berger were at worst
50/50 and possibly not Senna's fault.
Even the guy's worst critics don't take your line. Try watching his
total car control on a live qualifier then knock the guy.
Paul
|
837.1160 | | CHEST::LEECH | Shawn Leech | Wed Nov 07 1990 17:34 | 13 |
| I have to agree etirely with what Paul has said.
I am no Senna fan by any stretch of the imagination, but there can be
no doubt about the mans incredible driving ability.
When qualifying, most drivers/teams run their timed laps at convenient
gaps between other cars on the circuit, and it is therefore only their
ability which produces their relevant positions and not a maniac
disregard for others on the circuit.
Shaun.
|
837.1161 | | AD::YEN | | Wed Nov 07 1990 21:18 | 13 |
| A rhetorical question which can probably prompt two rather
emotional answers: did any of
Fangio,Brabham,Hill,Stewart,Rindt,McLaren,Surtees,
P.Hill,Fittipaldi,Lauda,Andretti,Scheckter,Jones,Piquet,Rosberg,Prost,
or Moss or Peterson or Villeneuve [or even Hunt in his later years] show
champion
form while being accused of "dangerous driving" or of becoming involved
in controversial manoeuvres?
No. Maybe Senna is truly unique. Maybe he's the only champion
with a single-minded, religious obsession with the title. Maybe he
simply has no respect for other drivers, whether he thinks it an act of
G*d or whatever. IMHO that kind of attitude takes the fun out of F-1.
What kind of hero is Senna???
|
837.1163 | | SKIWI::EATON | Marketing - where the rubber meets the sky | Wed Nov 07 1990 22:45 | 7 |
| OK, enough of all this...
Comments about next seasons cars/engines **please** ?
What do people think about Barnards influence on Benneton for '91 ?
Anyone have any news on the Porshce/Mercedes atmos ?
|
837.1164 | time to stop this topic? | OASS::BURDEN_D | He's no fun, he fell right over | Wed Nov 07 1990 23:06 | 3 |
| Discussions about next years cars/engines belong in the F1 '91 note, not here.
Dave
|
837.1165 | Interesting Numbers ! | LISVAX::BRITO | | Thu Nov 08 1990 09:55 | 76 |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Driver Points Poles Best Laps Victories Podium Km Leading Acidents
_______________________________________________________________________________
Senna 78 10 3 6 11 2544 2
Prost 71(73) - 2 5 9 444 1
Piquet 43(44) - - 2 4 242 -
Berger 43 2 2 - 7 326 3
Mansell 37 3 3 1 5 326 1
Boutsen 34 1 1 1 3 376 1
Patrese 23 - 4 1 1 59 1
Nannini 21 - 1 - 3 122 3
Alesi 13 - - - 2 126 4
Capelli 6 - - - 1 172 5
Who went further:
Drivers
______________________________________________________________________________
Piquet =======================4254.2
++++242
Berger ======================4248.9
+++++326
Patrese =====================4134.5 ====Total Km
+59 ++++Km Leading
Senna ===================3987.0
+++++++++++2544
Larini ==================3959.1
Prost ==================3950.9
++++++444
Mansell =================3890.7
+++++326
Which went further:
Cars
______________________________________________________________________________
Benetton================================================8284,5
+++++368
Mclaren ===============================================8244,3
+++++++++++++++++2870
Ferrari =============================================7843,3
+++++++++++770
Williams===========================================7694,1
++++++++435
Accidents in a carreer:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boutsen* 6.6% 8/121
Prost* 11.2% 19/169
Alboreto* 11.8% 17/144
Patrese* 14.4% 30/208
Senna* 14.5% 16/110
Piquet* 14.9% 28/188
Pirro** 25.0% 6/24
Nakajima** 22.4% 13/58
Alliot 19.6% 18/92
De Cesaris** 18.7% 28/150
Mansell** 17.4% 26/149
Alesi** 17.4% 4/23
*more than 100 GP
**more than 20 GP
|
837.1166 | Watson/Senna interview | CHEST::RUTTER | Rutter the Nutter | Thu Nov 08 1990 10:06 | 11 |
| Still on 1990, talking of Senna
Did anyone see the interview shown on Sportsnight last night ?
Senna being 'interrogated' by Watson.
Watson in very 'accusing' mood, Senna not having a
great deal to say (not surprising, given the questions).
Was this the same interview shown on satellite TV ?
J.R.
|
837.1167 | | IOSG::FREER | Life! Where would you be without it! | Thu Nov 08 1990 12:33 | 6 |
| That was Stuart not Watson!
Senna looked pretty upset by those questions, but never really answered
his questions straight.
Steve
|
837.1169 | F1 may hold further interest | CHEST::RUTTER | Rutter the Nutter | Thu Nov 08 1990 14:16 | 25 |
| Re .1167
Sorry, brain-fade approaching midnight, I got the name wrong...
Re .1168
�He appears to be more upset by this interview than anything else I have heard.
Well, when he got up to leave the interview, he certainly did not look
too happy. Hope he thinks about what was said, but still continues to
drive as fast as he [and only he] can.
I would hate to see Senna on the track if he was not 'racing'
(as he put it). But I would like to see him with an attitude
where he was prepared to 'back down' when challenging another
car for the 'line' through a corner.
Basically speaking, I am not a Senna fan, but I do think that
he is the fastest guy out there.
Maybe 'our Nige' is next fastest, but I can't stand the wingeing.
Here's hoping for a good season in '91/
J.R.
|
837.1170 | | NYTP05::JANKOWITZ | Stock transfer program DECline | Thu Nov 08 1990 15:29 | 16 |
| As far as Prost's lack-luster driving last week, didn't he jump the
start pretty badly? I didn't go back and look at it but I thought he
did. I expected him to be disqualified from the race or brought in for
a stop and go penalty or at least given a time penalty. I didn't hear
about any penalty being imposed.
My other thought was that since everyone was going to try to run one
set of tires I figured Prost was going to hang out until everyone else
used/abused theirs and then make a move. It seemed to me that most
of the other cars didn't have much left in the tire department towards
the end (excluding Mansell of course). Perhaps Mansell showed that
trying to go the distance on one set wasn't the best idea anyway.
Mansell also proved that he could go into the pits and exit without
breaking his car. Did you notice that there was significantly less
wheel spin exiting the pits than at Suzuka?
|
837.1171 | a streak | ULYSSE::FROST | | Thu Nov 08 1990 16:13 | 19 |
| No I do not believe that Prost jumped the start. The illusion was made
by the pooor start by Berger.
I also questioned Prost's timing until I looked very closely at the
stop motion on the VCR.
The white line underneath the front right wheel of the Ferarri is
clearly visible until AFTER the light changed to green.
Re: Rui, I also believe that Senna is one of the greats. To put career
accident figures down really is not proving anything.
Tell us how the accidents were caused, when a driver had the accidents
(during what part of his career) etc........ and you might establish
some credibility for the guy.
For me his skill is electric but his motivation for the sport is
diuretic, as his name implies.
George Frost
|
837.1172 | | LISVAX::BRITO | | Thu Nov 08 1990 18:17 | 19 |
| .1171� Re: Rui, I also believe that Senna is one of the greats. To put career
.1171� accident figures down really is not proving anything.
The statistics are not mine, George. I wouldn't put the figures down
to prove what doesn't need to be proved. There are drivers with a more
high ratio of accidents and no one ever said anything about excluding
them from F1 (or something similar).
These guys are all racing and they want to win races. But let me tell
you that Senna is being critised too much harshly. When Nakajima put
him out, in Mexico, nobody suggested Nakajima should be excluded. When
Mansell made that start in Portugal and Prost complained and said that
he had lost the race because of Mansell's start nobody, said Mansell
should be punished for dangerous driving.
Just imagine the outcry it would have been if in that episode instead
of Mansell you had Senna...
RUI
|
837.1173 | A few thoughts | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Nov 09 1990 08:49 | 32 |
| Nice to see a little sanity in the conference!
Re the JYS interview
I think the best point made by Senna was about the cars and circuits.
In JYS's days, the slightest off was likely to result in serious
injury. The cars were fragile, the circuits lethal. BUT - it was easy
to overtake, because the cars were smaller, giving more roon, and there
was far less grip.
Today, we have cars generating 2.5tons of downforce on 18" wide super
sticky tyres. When was the last time anyone saw a Petersonesque power
slide round a corner? And this grip is there to a large degree for
everybody, so overtaking is more difficult. Also, the circuits are
mostly designed to stop overtaking at almost every point.
Finally, with the wide run-off areas and very strong & safe cars, the
drivers know they are relatively secure. In JYS's era there were
usually multiple fatalities every season, now they are extremely rare,
as are accidents like Donnelly's.
All of these factors (IMHO) mean the drivers are put in a position of
having to go for smaller gaps if they want to win, and have the
encouragement to do so by feeling safe.
BTW Re a few back
Vllleneuve, Schecker, Peterson, Rindt, Hunt, Lauda (at the beginning)
were all accused of being dangerous. At my first GP, Schecker caused a
huge pile up at Silverstone by reckless driving.
Paul
|
837.1175 | | FRAMBO::LIESENBERG | It's supposed to be fun! | Fri Nov 09 1990 09:32 | 71 |
| Re. other dangerous drivers never run the risk of being excluded
This is definitely not true. I can recall that during Nakajima's worst
times, rumours about him being excluding got quite loud. And it helped.
Anyway, nobody in here talks about penalizing only Ayrton for reckless
driving... the crash "strategy" should of course be penalized without
consideration of the driver's name.
Re. "being fast"
I am witnessing too many people in this note falling for statistics
about fastest lap times and do on. Whoever gets impressed by this
alone, in my opinion, has a very basic understanding of the F-1 sport.
All the men out there have proved at one or other stage in their
careers that they can be hellishly fast.
What makes a legendary driver is not being fast, but bringing the best
results while running the lowest risk, not to say not endangering the
lives of his "foes" (probably we ought to start using boxing sport
terminology in F-1). Dosification of effort and mechanics shows
smartness and maturity in F-1 drivers. The capability to help in the
process of fine-tuning your car, of having an instinct for things that
can be enhanced in your car is the key to be a truly great F-1 driver.
To me, it's very clear that Prost is the driver out there that has
a justifiable claim to be mentioned along with the F-1 legends. Look at
how he made a competitive car in EVERY team he has been in, from
Renault to Ferrari. Come on, look at the achievements. Everyone who
just says "he's not as exciting" knows nothing about the sport. He
makes a fast lap WHEN HE NEEDS IT, and doesn't blast away in useless
stupidity even though he's in a comfortable lead (I am seemingly
addressing someone in particular in here) and gets off the road in the
process. It's clear that, as soon as Prost left McLaren, the car has
lost its overwhelming techincal lead, which puts a question mark on
Senna's ability to be a useful support for his engineers.
To me, it's clear that whenever Prost and someone else, including
Senna, have been on the track one to one with equal technology fighting
for the lead (and remaining fair in the process) one driver ends up
losing his cool and ends up in the ditch. One to one, no one can cope
with Prost out there. Senna knows. That's why he took Prost out the
race when he was offered the first chance.
He has the title, but he knows he's not a worthy world champion. That's
why he's so elusive in interviews.
I've followed F-1 since I'm a kid. I never was one for hero worship or
so, but the great champions were always people that deserved respect
for the classy and gentlemany ways they sported in and outside of the
courses. I've never heard a driver publicly say "yeah, they ought to
keep out of the way". That's a disgrace to the sport. I'm sad to see
the sport evolving in a direction that views the driver just as another
component supposed to work mindlessly at full load despite what's
around him. The magic of the sport lay in watching a mature, skillful
driver using as much of the car's surplus in speed and power as the
situation allowed. The human component taming the technological beast,
that was it. Now it's just blasting away, no holds barred, and if
there's someone in the way, who cares? We may crash or die or
whatever, but winning is on the stake... Fast cars driven by mindless
roboters have no magic for me. Even less when the gentlemany component
of the sport is clearly going to disappear and the first crash
casualities are a sure thing.
That is why, as long as the current direction in F-1 is kept, I want
none of it. Twenty years of following the sport (I started at seven)
came to an end the day a gentlemany and worthy champion was taken out
of the course, and the F-1 establishment hesitated in penalizing this
flagrant foul-play.
I'll keep to history books about racing, the stories of great and fair
champions from Tazzio Nuvolari to Alan Prost, the last legitimate
keeper of a great tradition. Whoever has interest in spending an
afternoon drinking tea and watching some VCR-tape out of my collection
of racing history is welcome in Frankfurt.
This is my last note in the F-1 conference, as well. Keep discussing
about engines and cars and brainless fast drivers, and have fun.
Best regards,
...Paul
|
837.1176 | That is how it should be said | ULYSSE::FROST | | Fri Nov 09 1990 13:07 | 13 |
| re: 1173 Paul it is precisely the attitude that Senna has that so
shamefull. It really does not take any skill to threaten
other drivers publicly "to get out of the way" I'm coming
through!.
Anyway I think that I have made my point that I know Senna
can be fast but he has lost an awfull lot of respect over
the years by his accidents.....He is no more a beginner.
I heartily endorse -2 and thank you -1 for a very eloquent and valid
set of opinions. I hope the prospect of a "changed" set of F1 rules for
1991 will retain your interest in the sport and this notes file.
George Frost
|
837.1177 | The best are always arrogant | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Fri Nov 09 1990 13:26 | 37 |
| George
Pardon me if my ears are bunged up, but I've never heard Senna say
that. I've heard him say that backmarkers should keep clear of the
line, which I am sure we would all agree. What might be construed as
such a comment about Prost (ie he should have got out of the way at
Suzuka) I interpreted as -
he should have realised that I was going for the gap, and if I had been
in that situation I would have given up the corner.
Senna's comments are that he is there to win pure and simple, something
he has done 26 times in just over 100 races. The vast majority of those
have been totally uncontroversial. You seem to be targetting him for
actions in maybe 2 or 3 percent of his races.
Re -2
Sorry to see you go, I hope you'll be back in the 1991 note. I too have
been following F1 for 25 years or so, but I would say that it is very
unfair to compare the various eras. To some F1 died when the Lotus got
painted red white and gold, to others when the Nurbergring was dropped.
Its a very individual thing. My enthusiasm went for a long time after
Gilles died, but Senna chasing Prost at Monaco in the Toleman fired me
up and when he went to my beloved Lotus, I was in heaven. But Chapman
died and Lotus lost its way, and Ayrton went to Team Perfect. I cannot
get enthused about McLarens no matter how I try, but I still love
watching Senna.
I've always loved Ferrari too, and I looked forward to Mansell doing
well, but Mr Prost's political games killed that. So now I wear a
Ferrari jacket, but next year I won't be cheering them on, its just a
nice jacket! As for the past two and a half seasons I'll be shouting
for Leyton House, hoping that Lotus rise again, and hoping Senna
finally convinces everyone he is the real No1.
Paul
|
837.1178 | Autosport wanted !!! | FTCVAX::SMITHS | | Mon Nov 12 1990 16:59 | 8 |
| Just going off the main theme,but does anyone have a copy of last weeks
Autosport (aussie gp issue) tha I could have a look through and then
return.
For various reasons I did not buy one on Thursday and trying to get a
copy now seems virtually impossible.
I hope someone can help
steve
|
837.1179 | IMHO | PCOJCT::MILBERG | I was a DCC - 3 jobs ago! | Tue Nov 13 1990 03:39 | 10 |
| To paraphrase an olde pilots saying-
There are old race drivers
There are bold race drivers
But, there are no old and bold race drivers.
-Barry-
|
837.1180 | | NCEIS1::CHEVAUX | Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995 | Tue Nov 13 1990 08:30 | 12 |
| re Senna's accident at Adelaide
Sorry I did not post this earlier.
When closing on Patrese Senna almost missed the hairpin. At the end of
the straight he probably consumed whatever remained of the brake pads.
At this point he had all braking power on the rear wheels (nothing left
on the front axle). When coming to the "final" corner he tried to slow
down by using the gearbox (yes, engine braking !) but he failed to get
2nd gear (just like at Silverstone last year) and ... boom.
All these comments on TF1 by flying reporter Pierre Van Vliet.
|
837.1181 | IN THE INTERNAL. | CMOTEC::HORNBYK | | Tue Nov 13 1990 09:00 | 10 |
|
Steve,
Its in the internal post....
Re Adelaide....Think just about everything has been said, but
I thought the coverage was excellent...made Brazil look like a
home movie!
Cheers Kev..
|
837.1182 | Senna kidnapped????? | LUNER::PERLA | | Wed Nov 14 1990 19:33 | 23 |
| 11-12-90 USA newspaper reported that a group of people tried to kidnap
Ayrton Senna near his summer home in Rio. The government had a tip and
warned Senna about it. Now he has a personal helicopter follow him around
as security.
Does anyone know when ESPN is going to air the Formula 1 special on the
1990 season. If so can someone post when they hear the date and time.
Thanks,
Barry
|
837.1183 | | MUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSY | Plato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnight | Tue Nov 27 1990 17:49 | 43 |
| The kidnappers called themselves the Committee to Save F1 From
Ruthless Ambition and their leader said that their primary goal
was to strap the little bugger to the nose of either a Lotus or
a Ligier and run him through some Senna-style passing maneuvers
against Club Ford racers...
re 2
What?! You mean to say that Ayrton was actually at fault? But...
I thought that *all* Senna crashes were mechanical failures.
re: Paul & RUI
You miss the point entirely. Just look at the uniqueness of this
situation: Never before has a champion engendered so much acrimony,
and his behavior has forced a radical shift in racing policy that
all had hoped to avoid from the sports beginning, that being a shift
from gentlemanly courtesy to a quasi-legal system of rules, reviews,
and punishments.
Senna's skills aren't under discussion, his geeky tactics are. The
total number of crashes are wholly irrelevant, the fact that he crashes
intentionally for competitive advantage is what's relevant. Senna's
comment on the Prost crash that it was Alain's responsibility to clear
a path for a pass that wasn't there was a slip of the tongue, a rare
and refreshing burst of honesty from this unique little jungle bug that
goes a long way towards explaining his success and why he's dragged the
sport down.
Consider that others crash cuz their cars are slow. Senna has in the
McHonda one of the greatest competitive advantages ever seenin F1 and
yet for some mysterious reason he needs to crash from behind - and then
only those who threaten his primacy.
Senna is low. Senna has hurt the sport. His low behavior, I suppose,
was inevitable given the huge financial $takes that exist in the sport
now. All that was needed was to combine all that money with someone
with the requiste egomania and vacuous self-deluded sense of ethics and
an Ayrton Senna was inevitable sooner or later.
Darn.
MrT
|
837.1184 | It couldn't have been said better | KAOA11::LAVIGNE | | Tue Nov 27 1990 18:30 | 7 |
| Here Here!!!!
Well said Mr. T
BTW are you the big black guy with the mohawk hair cut. ;-)
FCGT
|
837.1185 | Sorry, but I agree | ULYSSE::COLLINS | Russ, 828-5371, Valbonne | Wed Nov 28 1990 09:50 | 6 |
| re .1183 by Mr.T
I'm still a Senna fan, but...
... that's unfortunately pretty accurate.
russ
|
837.1186 | No 1 is Senna's by right - Wins/Laps lead/poles | YUPPY::PATEMAN | Forza Leyton House!! | Wed Nov 28 1990 11:43 | 17 |
| Mr T
Just a thought, statistics can prove anything, but there has been a
statement that Senna and Prost have both been involved in 10 accidents
with other cars in their F1 careers. That makes Senna a little more
accident prone than Prost, but then again he's a lot faster ;->
Call me old fashioned but driving round waiting for those in front of
you to drop out like Le Prof is not Grand Prix racing. Also, packing it
in 'cos its wet is a bit tame too.
Goodbye '90, '91 will be better and closer, but you can never go back
to gentlemen racing, and if you did people would die like they used to.
Paul
|
837.1187 | | LISVAX::BRITO | | Wed Nov 28 1990 15:00 | 7 |
| I decided not to reply to the last entries...
Instead I made a draw :-)) you will find in my next reply.
To view the draw all you have to do is to enter EXT TT and have a VT330
or 240).
RUI
|
837.1188 | Enter EXT TT | LISVAX::BRITO | | Wed Nov 28 1990 15:01 | 286 |
| �7 IP9;;1q"1;1;600;750
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!5?o!594?-
!6?F~_!591?-
!7?F!3~}{w!2o!2_!582?-
!7?W!11~!2}!2{!2w!2o!3_!132?_ow!2K!4E][!5?!4_!3?!2_!2?!3_!2?
!2_o{k_?o}M!3?!4_!3?!2_!2?!2_!3?!2_!5?!4_!4?!2_!2?!3_!10?
o}M!5E}{!5?!4_!6?!4_!3?_eE?!2_!2?!3_!6?!3_?!2_!8?o}M!279?-
!8?BN^!22~!2}!3{!4w!4o!3_!112?{~b!3?!3K!2{K?w}NJ!3HNF?{~FA!2@
x~F?`|^B!2@{~Bw}NJ!3HNF?{~BA@|~BA@|~B_ozZHL|~F!2?{~FA!2@x~F!8?{~F!4E
M~z@?_ozZHL|~F?w}FB!3@!2B?{~B?{~FA!2@x~F?w}FB!2@`|~B!7?[^B!280?-
!4?o!7?@BFN!2^!35~!4}!4{!4w!4o!4_!89?!2B!4EA!2F!3?BF!3E!2B
!2?!2F!4?!2F!3?BFE!2?!2F!2?BF!3E!2B!2?!2F!3?!2F!3?!2F!2?
BF!2EA!2F!3?!2F!4?!2F!9?!2F!6?!2F!3?BF!2EA!2F!3?BF!3E!2B
!2?!2F!2?!2F!4?!2F!2?orf!2euz^F!8?!2E!282?-
!5?FW_!12?!2@!2B!2F!3N!2^!46~!5}!5{!5w!5o!6_!84?!28_!86?!3@
!296?-
!8?@ACGO!2_!18?!2@!2B!3F!4N!3^!63~!6}!7{!7w!8o!7_!9?!2_!3O
!4G!4C!8A!13@!26?!13@!8A!4C!4G!3O!2_!352?-
!15?!2@A!2C!2GOo!2_!24?!4@!4B!4F!4N!4^!83~|!2w!3o!4_!13?!4_
!6O!7G!11CE!27A!8C!6G!2WTQ!3o!4_!343?-
!26?!2@!2A!2C!2GW!2O!3_!34?!5@!5B!4F!5N!5^!64~!2^!2NF!2E!3A
!4@!8?Cs{K{o!4?O{}!2QA!2?O!2}!3O!3?_o!2Oo_!3?O!2o_!3O!10?O!2o
!3?!2oO?_o!2Oo_!2?O!2o!2?O!2o?!3CK!2GWO!2_!326?-
!40?!2@B!2AE!2C!3G!4O!4_!45?!7@!7B!7F!6N!6^!14~!2^N!2F!2B
!2@!23?O]^TCT^]O!2?O!2^!2O!4?N^!2OWG?FNY!2QYZJ!2?O!2^!3O!12?@
F}w]F@?FNW!2OWNF!2?N^!2OG!2^O!10?!2@B!2FN^!11~!20}!20{!31w!42o!63_
!132?-
!59?!4@!4A!4C!5G!5O!5_!57?!4@pLB@!87?!2A!2BA!7?!4_!13?!2_!13?
@F!184~!132?-
!85?!5@!5A!5C!6G!5Oo!5_!30?No!34?@!2~KoK!2~@?C!2{G!3C!19?@!2~
!2`p^M!2?C!2{G!3C?owK!2CKwo!3?C!2~!2C!14?~^!14?_{!183~!132?-
!117?!6@!5AE!5CK!5GW!5Oo!2_`egwO!2_!27?C!2FC?C!2FC_C!2F!3C!5?
!2E!13?C!2F!2C!5?C!2F!3C!2?@BE!2CEB@!3?C!2F!2C!14?!2E!8?!2_
OGCA!13B!17F!20N!31^!104~!132?-
!152?!5@BAE!2C!2G!2O!3_!19?_w{!3~]E!67?!4_o!2OWG!2C!2A!2@!127?
!64@!131?-
!32?_oG!2CA!130?!4@!4A!4C!4G!2w}!3~^VR!12_!27?!8_!6O!4G!4KS!4Q
R!4P!6O!20_!310?-
!32?@ACcwG!141?_o{}!5~x!3o!2_!5?M!2~{_!28@!46?A]}a?a}]A?GwxP!3H@`p
X!2HXp`HxpHxpIyq!13A!2~!2A!21C!20G!31Oo!63_!134?-
!28?_!2OG!2CA@!139?_w{}!17~!2}{w!4~{!8?o{wG_!4o!8_!50?BNKNB!3?G!2N
!3G!2?BFK!2GKFBG!2N?!2N?!2NG!12?LK!16?!2K!7?!2K!7?!2K!7?!2K
!43?!6_!178?-
!24?_WCB!145?{!23~!4^!5~w!4?w!2~N@?@H!2|p!8B!9F!8M!9[!8w!9o!8_
!63?!12_o!11OW!11GK!11CE!11AB@!2`@!2p!3@!2`@!12?!2_!4?!3O?_!2oO
!3?OS!2CkmA!2O!145?-
!20?o[E@!100?_ow{]NE!9F!19M!13[]!6^!2z!8x!9w!3op!5~^OG!2^F@!5?B
^~{_!40?!9@!2b!6BVvfF|!2{!3_?!2_!6?!2_!6GK!5C!4c!2CE!11AB!2@
Pp`!7@!15?!2_!22?!2G!2C!6?GWo_!2Q!2?!2c!2@?!2_giEC_u]KLHgbB!2C
!2QB`!2_w{k?`jYQa!2ei!3mMYwcK!2GHhnF!2I!142?-
!19?EHO_!94?_ow{]N!2FB@!9?!12_!12o!12w!12[!6MG!7?!9@!14?F^N!51w!2{
!2z!2{!2x!2{!3^!2A!4O!2?!2G!4?!2O!3?!2_!2O!2?!4C!5?!2A
!2?!2G!2A!7?!2A!7?!2C!11?!2C!10?!2O!2?!2@?AQOG!3WO!2SO!4?
C!2EA!2EI!2w{d@!2A_ghdcD@OWL\O!2GOo`@!3?I!2MJPopvfBCK!2GWSV!3Z
]NLAemGC!2E!142?-
!23?r]!31?_!12?!10_!10o!10w{!9[]!4MG?BF!2N!4M!12F!10B!2b`!2p!9x!3w
!20[!20M!9FC!60?op!3@!2OS!2U!2EUwg!3?!2K!2@!2G?!2_!8?!2@!2C
!3?_gG!5?!2g!12?!2O!2?!2O@`_?!2G!2?!2_!3@?GWO?!2E!2AauS?!2C
!2G?!2C!2_?!2_@BA?!2K@B!2AQ!2OQ!2A?OWg`VUq!2g!2psS_iMD@!2?!2C
!3?!2C?!2A!2?G!2I?PVE!4?!2@!7?!2@!148?-
!21?_[F!28?_w}~!4N!6F!2v!19~!2|xw!2o!14?!4_?_!30?C!3F!2B!3@!4?
!3@BFN^}{w!39?_!2o!4w!5{!5}!4{!4w!2o_!30?!2O!2_!9?CEA?!2A!2?
!2@!9?!2G!10?!2O!11_o!9O!5G!2I!4GC!2D!3CDTSC!2JA!2Qo_!6?!2G
!2?!2O?!3O!2?!2G!2KH@?!2OBRO?!2A!2u!2?K[SD`bA?CD@B!2QA!4?!2@
!184?-
!8?!2_!2O!3GK!3C!2A@!19?!2_!2ow{!2}!2w}^NB!6?_ow}!29~}wo_!8?
fn!2GHzr?w{U!2QU[W?A!2}C!2A}{?A!2}C!2A}{?_q!3Q}{!16?N!2~o!30?o!2{
!2}!32~!2}!2{o!17?!2_imC!2K_`dc?ow!4[!2g{!2SC!2SCSUECIYUE!7A!8@
!2B!5?!2_!4?!2O!8?!2K!9?!2C!2?!2@!2?!2@!3?!2_!9?!2@!3?
!2C!4?!2E!9?!4C!5?!2A!2@?!2@!7?!2O!6?!2_!19?!9_!8O!9G!6C
!4?!2C!4?!2_!3?!2o?C!2cC?!2A!104?-
O!2GCEA!2@!22?!2_!2o!2w!2[MN!2F!2B!2@!2?N!2~x!8?{!16~!2^!2N
^!16~{!7?B@B!2AB@!2?@B!2A!2B@?A!2BA?A!2B!2A!2BA?A!2BA@B!2A@!2B
A!13?_o}~N@!26?_w{!19~!8^!17~{w_!11?!3WCLNU}z!2x~!2vtqQ^N?GIAB@!2C
?!2C!7?!2C!5?!2@!7?!2O!16?!2@!8?!2C!15?!2G!4?!2A!21?!2G!13?
!2_!2?!5O!8G!9C!8A!2@!2`!2@!2`@!9?!2@!8?!2@!4?!2_?!2O!4?
GWO?!2C?CuyICKG?GMEOP!2@!104?-
!19?_!2o!2w!2{!2}~v!2r!2p!3o!12wx!3~o!2?!3_!15~b@!7?@v!14~^!3?
_!7o!14_!18?B!2N]!2[!3w!4o!3w{}^NFB@!27?w!18~B@!12?@B!16~w!9?!2I
A!2C!2?Afnh!2\jnmnJab@Oo_!12?@PO!6?!3_!2`_!7O!9G!2H!15G!11O!7_
!10?!2@!71?!2C!17?!2G!14?!2C!7?AB@!4?!2C!108?-
!19?@B!16@!14?@FBA?@!3BF!15~}!2{!2w{}!15~F!4?!8@!14B!15F!11M!3N!2\
!13[!14w!7oO?{!18~w!2G!5?!2A!2?!2A!3?w!16~{!11?!2A?!2QPZia!2O
!4@!2?!2G?Ss_O!2QW!3G!4C!2B!2A!4@!57?!5@B!3AE!3CK!3G!2O!9_
aq!2o!35O!5?!2C!29?!2_!139?-
!28?!2G!32?@BN^!27~^NB@!67?!2_!17?!7@!2?@^!15~w!3~}!2{!6w!2|!2{
}!17~^@!8?!2@!2C!9?!2@cTHGCEA!2@!5?C!2{o?C!2{C?_o!2Oo_!2?O!2o
_!2Oo_!10?O!2o_!2Oo_!2?_o!2Oo_!2?O!2o_!2Oo_!9?Oo_Oo_Oo_!2?_o!2O
o_!2?O!2o_!2Oo_!11?!4Oo_?Oo_Oo_Oo_!3?!2O!2u!15?!2}!22?!2g!4?!2O
!138?-
!18?!2O?Cmi!3o!2Ooufr}{G_g!2M!28?!8@B!10N!2F!2B!2@!12?!2OCD@?!2g
?Gwo_Oo_oO!2C!2?!2_!3?!2A?!2G!5?!2_!8?!2_?!2O?!2G!17?!2@!7?
_!2o_!3?cv^!46~^F!3?!2G?!2O!14?{A@!14?O!2^OBK!2^?FNW!2OWNF?O!2^
O?O!2^O!2?_wW!4?O!2^O?O!2^OFNW!2OWNF?O!2^O?O!2^O!8?O!2^?!2^?
!2^OFNW!2OWNF?O!2^O?O!2^O!9?K]!2QI!2^!2O!2^?!2^?!2^O!2?!2O
!2^!2O!13?ZX!7?!2W!7?!2W!4?!2g!2Y!3?!2A!2@!135?-
!14?!2_CSOGYyc~^TVfm}y~n}u!2M!3mnXSC!59?!2@!3?OWy}e!2{!2|~!2bmL
J!2Iig?!2_!2?!2C?!2@AE!2C!4G!5O!5_!2o_!6?!2A!4?!2G!5?!2@
?CDBA!4?!2C!2O!3A@V!2^f!38~^NB!11?_OWG!2C!2A!6@FGO_!33?_ow{wo_!2?
@!71?_!2WG!4?!4G!3W!7G!2g!9G!7?!2oO?!2WG!3W_oO!3_gwogG!3?!4O
!3?!3_!2?!2A?!2O!135?-
!10?QYG!2K!2MKTpi^\~vjNC?Vvi!2k!2sfNMSqa!2G?!2C!53?!2G!2?!2G?!3G
[\^~{rvf!2v!2fbJND!2c!12?!2@!15?!7@AQUCK!2GO!2P!3_!4?!2C!2A!2?
!2G?!2@!2G!4?!2B?DL^!21~!2^N!4F!2B!2@!15?@!17?GH!2ACKG!2o!2_
!17?_ow{}!3~^FB@!66?!2_!2O!2GCQP!12?!2A!8?CKG!5?_oO!2C?Bb_gxRU[
WSKGQqgJBCcmnDCENH!2O!152?-
!8?AagKS!2Z!2]!2rM]}vpdfa!2_AE!2CNjhJQPBb_WXLC!14?!2O!2G!4?!2C
!16?!2_!2?_sSYzrus!2o!3@!4?!2_?!2ECD@HIa_@!2BHG!28?!2O!3?!2_
!2?!2_!5?!2C!2A!2O?!3@BAECKHXOo_!29?!7@!56?!3@B!3A!4Cg!2w{}
!4~nfb`_!44?!7_!5OW!3GK!3CE!3A!2@!2?_!2`_?!4_!39?oqAQUEACEA!2@
!6?!2C!155?-
!10?!4@?!2A!2@?!2c!2`P!2oWG!2A?GXTEA!3OSEA?!2G!4?OW!4G!2IG!2W
!2IG!2W!13G!2WG!2gG!2g!2GW]^!2|{KklL!2KL!2H!2LCKktT!17C!2DC!2S
!3C!3s!2c!2sdTS!2URJ!2IJ!2XZ^!2TU!3E!2I!23?@AKO_!85?!3_ow!2{
!3}{}!5~fb@B!3~w!2?!7@!26A!11@!29?F~w?w~F!2?A!2}C!3A?w{E!2AE{w
A}{A}{A}{!13?^N!173?-
!19?!2@!3SthH?!2OGWS{wWo_!2WosS!3?!2_?@DC!2?!2G?!2GIA!2H!4?G
H@?!3AOQA!2_?GWO?!2@!2?!2b@GI!2JA!3g_OPTSOG!2g!3Ghd!3C!3EC!2I
!2QIMUYi`@!2D!2@!2H!2@CD@!2PX!2G!2CB!2NEPph!2]!4?!2C!7?!2_
!9?!2O!9?@!2A!8CK!15GW!3O!50?_w{}!20~}!5~o!6?o{~]AW!4[!8w!9o
!8_!34?!3B!4?A!2B!3A!3?@B!2AB@?A!2B?!2B?!2BA!12?!2B!16?!2B!7?
!2B!7?!2B!7?!2B!128?-
!18?!2G!2@!2?!2GHVU!2ACD`!2_wybL[Vvem]ORBCEB@?AB@?!3O!5?!2O!6?
!2@!3?!2O?!4_oOGKM!2A!2@D!2C!2?!2G_aEC?!2pTS!2HGK!2N?!2@!2?
!2_!2?CD@AIG!7?!2A!3?CK!2G!3A`hG!2?!2@!8?!2_!7?!2AOQA!2CO
XHGWo_!38?_o_!9o!19_!13?_{}!6~!8^!8N!4F^!4~}o!2?o}~^B!3?A!2~{!8?
!9@!8B!9F!8M!9[!8w!4oO!34?!12_o!11OW!11GK!11CE!11AB!7@!113?-
!22?!2O!3?!2_!2?!2_@FE?U}gCD!2B!2?Aa_!11?!2_!17?!2_{EPriGQUscA
QO!2C!4?@`aIg_Kkm^vyJ@HG!2?!2P!4?!2A!4?!2A!3?!2B!3?!2G?Gg_!2?
!2B!2p!11?@!2T!2?!2E!3_AQWXPSUVD@!2B!2AEC?!2C!28?_!2ow{]NFB!10@
!19B!20F!5M!6m!8M!4[!5^FCA!2F@!7?F!2~w!57?!4@!3~!6?!2_!4?!2G
!6AB!2`!10@!39?!2G!29?_oO?!2_!104?-
O!2_!15?!3C!3?@`dcMN@!2E!2GAB@!2?_!2o!2C!7?!2O!2W!2e?!2C?C
KG!3?!2A!2?Gg_?GkuYzuf!2^ntV}{O?Ii_!4@?@B!2AED@!2?AaiG@HG?GH!2@
?!2C!2?!2_!5?!2@!5?!2A!5?!3G!5?!2A!4?!2A!8?!2A!5?AEC!2?
!2G?HNE!19?!5_!2?ow{}nfb`p!11o!12w!12[!12M!11Ff!6ba!12_!9o!9?@FB!48M
!2m!2]!9M!3F?GW!4OoaIG!2CAa_!6?!2g!4?Oo_!4?!2O!3?O!2WO!4?
!2_?!3_oO!11?!2O!2?GH@?!2_!7?!2OAB@!2?!2O?!2_?!2`OXH!2iKC?_
`!2@?OP@!98?-
!2?!2@!3A!5C!5G!2O!3Qbfe!3ctzj\S!4?!2@!2_!26?!2A?Ceixp!2oO
!2}{[Y!2UCE!2FA?!2S!7?!2Q!18?!2G!3?!2A!23?CKG_ow!2os{!2w!6o
!10w!8{!2[]!9MN!10F!4BA!2?@!6B!12@!8?!2O!3W!2[]!4M!3]!4}f!19F
!20B!10@!4?!5_!43?_oW!2g!2I?{}Me!2k[!2S!2_?!2G!2?C!2KT\MI!2o
AYW?!2G!2SC?!2C!2G!3?!2@AB@?!3A!12?csOCc!2e!2_cnj!2m!3g!2ws
C!2G!2?Gg_!11?!2O!3?PphkfF_!2lGIME@HJB!2A!3?!2A!97?-
!23?!3@P!2OXH!6@!13A!13CK!2wkij\T!2oSC!2S!2TckGO!2Us_!2?!2c!2O
!5?!2G!3?!2O!19?_oO!5?_!2`_!2?AQO!2o?Oo!2c!2?_w}~NFfbB!3@P!2p
!2|!21~!2}!2{o_!65?@BFN~}o!34?!2_!2ow!2{!4}!14~!4}!2{w!2o!2_
!10?o!12O!2w!2O!2W!2prqRZ\[XR][oxhGghnF!2K!2d!2_!3d`!3_!2O!2P
!6O!2W!8Ggk!2K!7C!8AIMF!2|~zZ!2v!3~!2fngld_!2P!2G!19?!2C!2O
!3?CDFE!3?!2A!104?-
!45?!2_!3G!2Oo_!3?!2G!9?!2@BAECK!2]?!2p!11?!2C!9?Ss_!2@!2?
!2A?A!2IA!2o!4?!2A!3?BVt`_!2I@!2Dx{uyw|\^~n!2~}^NZO?!2JNfc!3}
!31~}{w!17?A!2}!2Aa}[!2?G!2wO!3G?_oW!2GWo_!2?ow!3G!2W!2?G!2~
!3G!6?b!2~[!29?o{!40~{o!6?~!6?GH@!2HEeg!2Z[NJfnJ@tuF!2N!2IH~B!2@
!2B!2@`_!7?!2_!3?!2G!7?!2_csO?Op`wy!2]AC!2S!2@!2?!2A!7?!2L
v~JMN^RyzjrZ!3JAEcoO!139?-
!44?!2K?OWltvNljJ!2r!2GH@?!2@!10?!2@!2?_`@!2D!6?!2_!6?!4_!6?
!2G!2?!2O!6?!2C?Gg!2_!2q!2}]\^mvV!2B@!2T!5?F^~}o!6?o!15~^N!2F
!2BFN^!15~o!15?G!2N!2H@!4?G!2N!3G!2?BFK!2GKFB!2?KL!3HNE!3?FN
!2GKC?_ow{~^B!27?w}!17~^!2N!8F!2N^!15~}w!3?~!10?!2@!5ABHXP?!2@!6?
O~G!3?!2_?!2@!14?@BA!4?OPBI!2Y!2LOrbIYZve!4?GldST@!2_?!2_?PTDA
B!2D!2@!2?CKG!2O!2A!58?!4OW!11GK!11CE!5A!49?-
!6?W_!34?OV!2^PVUuvtpG|tPSV[o!6?!2D!34?!2C!2?!2O!9?W{[!2]!5^\
[!2\!4[!13MN^~{_?W!2w!15~wo_!5?_o|!14~F!3?W!7[!14w!15o!6_!3c!2k
!3{!2[!4KNFB@!29?}!17~N!16?N!15~}!2?~!31?~!29?!2@!3?IJ@bjNUW]!2n
zy!2{[T@Aa`po!6?!2A!156?-
!7?BKO_!29?!2I?!2X@E!2FckMAB!2J@!2H!2P@AC!2GOo!2_!7?!2A!19?!2C
!14?!2O!3?!2O!26?GWO?@?!2O!4?@N^!16~!2}!15~^N@!26?!15@!14B!15F!14M
!7[C?^!16~N~}o_!12?_o}!16~^?~!31?~!33O!2PW[KJN!2~MIZ~{!2wk!2lkiI!5G
!3W!3G!2I!4G!2W!33GK!113?-
!10?@BEGO!2_!31?C!2D@AECAIW!2Owx@_aA?!2G!2@!2ACKG!2O!2_!11?!2G
!2A!11?!2G?o!5wxp!12o!2_!2a!5_!2cgGSV!2Z!2Qa!2_?EFB!2@Gg_!2?
_bF!2^!23~!2^FB?!2_!4?!2_?!2C?Gg!2_oO?OW!2GWO?!2_!69?F!15~}!6~
!8}!20~F!2?~!31?~!32?!4O!2G?!2EAN\OefB@HWTd!2tC!2?!2C!3?GWO!5?
OQE!2[ChxogG!2P!137?-
!17?!2@A!2C!2GOo!2_!30?!2@!17?!2@?@!2D!2A!2I!2E!6C!4G!3Orb
!2_!3?!2O!5?!7@!3H!2@!3B!2J!4BJ!2ZJ!4F!3NFN^V!2v!9M!3m!3[
!2\!8^!5~!2z!4x!2w!7o!2q!3o_owg_ce!2ausuew{C!4?K{o!66?@FN!44~
NF@!3?!33@!24?!2OCc_!2?!2K_g!2HldSO!3@!2?!2A!2?!2A?!2@!3?!2_
!2@!3?@`_!4?!2A?OQB!2X!2@!25?_!113?-
!28?!2@!2A!2C!2GW!2O!3_!64?!2@!2AC!2G!3O!5_!21?!2AB@?!2@!21?
!2A!19?!9@Dd`Brv!3fFV!3~fnN!2v!4F!3f!3F!13M!12[{!12w!13o!12_!5?
B!2N!2^!32~!2^!2NB!41?!18_!2o!2s!3oqywqrtvz~uo!2y!2w!4{!9w!18[
!8M!2N!7M!18FB!98?!9_!6O-
!42?!2@B!2AE!2C!3G!3O!4_!61?!4@!3AE!3C!3GO!3o!3_!12?Gg_!4?
!2A!3?!2W!3?!2G!2O!14?!2A!3?!2_!3?!3OCD@!2fL!3|z}um!2nm?C
d`!45?!13@!12B!13F!11N!14^zx!4wK!8[!18M!18F!17B!5@!2D@!2B!5@PRB!2_
G!3[UF!2`!2f`dfB!103?!8_!9O!8G!8CE!8A!8@!15?-
!60?!3@!4A!3C!4G!4O!5_!49?!2G?@`p\k`!2H@HhqQA!2QA!3CLleig!2y
iyW!2woq!2a!2w!2_!4?_aA?!2@!9?!2@!8?_dvV!2]KN~pcsP@gwO!10?!2A
!65?!2O!40?!2O!44?!2W!8?!2O!18?_!2gWT^Yy{sk\XO@`_!97?!5@!65?-
!83?!4@B!4A!5C!5G!6O!5_!16?!2C!3?GIAHXY!2Qo_AbtS!2?CLH@!2Psu
e!3gk!2M!2S?OYI!2@!2G!4@DMIA!2I!3CG!4?!2_?_a!3A!2?CDBJmd@AB
@!4?!2C?!2C!2?!2_!8?!2G!9?!4O!2_!2C!3c?!2G!2_!12?!2a!5?
!2_!3?!2_!8?!2G!2A!6?!2C!4?!2O!4?!2@!10?!2G!6?!2@!4?!2O
!2?!2@!4C?!2O!8?@PSC!6?!2_!5?!2A?Oo_!4?!2IJH?!2OCckG!3?!2O
?_oO?Q!2Vusu}kuzZ!2HXxji@DC!19?!2_!147?-
!113?!5@!6A!5CK!5GW!3O!2Po!5_aB@!2C!2?!2@!5?!2A!4@!60?!2C!15?
!2A!2JGCDVZ^]MflL!2WG!2KIJZ!2QO!2SOPxg_!2o_!2a_`@!2S!4?!2@!2B
!2?!2C!2@?!2C!2?!2C!8?_aA!2O!2?!2Q!2?_gG!2_!11?!2_!8?!2G
CSO?gkC!2?!2AIG!5?O!2oO!2?!2A!2?AQ!2[Ckh!2@Vu~^!2av^~tsuA?!3g
!2GIQ!2Ry!2}!2~etptV!2RZH_!2h!2O!2W!2_!3?!3_gGK]QO!2A!2Q!2g
G!2?!2S!56?!35@!48?-
!147?!6@B!7A!8C!8G!8O!9_!54?!2G?GKC!2c!2W?!2d@HG!5?_cC!6?O!2S
!2G?!8@!2`A!2B!7A!2K!3C!2E!6C!2S!10G!2I!2H!5G!4Q!15O!2Q!7O
o!9_!2o!2h!3_!2cd`aec!2_y!2~p_!2aecaqo`pwhb!2}etrv|~uo_wzjai!3j
a_!2sptc_!2`_O!3X!2\Xx|\P!2WXprR^[Stp!10OW!16G!112?-
!194?!9@!8A!9C!11G!12Oo!6_!2a_!2a_?!4@!3?!2@!3?!2A!13?!2O!39?
!2C!35?!2@!23?@!2JBEFDfzWG!2?!3@!3?!2QGH@?@HNE!7?!2C!5?!2C!11?
!2AGWO?!2BGKC!2@!61?!16w{!17[!18M!8FC!22?-
!256?!16@!19A!20C!20G!21O!20_!39?!2@!187?-
!372?!31@B!63A!133?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
!600?-
\
|
837.1189 | Hmmm | IOSG::MARSHALL | Waterloo Sunset | Wed Nov 28 1990 15:12 | 6 |
| I just extracted this and printed it on a DECWindows DECTerm window... and
all my DECTerm windows crashed!
Any reason why?
Scott
|
837.1190 | Ayrton crashes VAX processes now | NSDC::SIMPSON | Two faced commit | Wed Nov 28 1990 15:34 | 8 |
| RE: -.1
I don't know why this should happen; however I think that if a crash was
involved then its pretty safe to blame Senna...
:-)
Steve
|
837.1191 | | LISVAX::BRITO | | Wed Nov 28 1990 16:14 | 17 |
| re.1189� <<< Note 837.1189 by IOSG::MARSHALL "Waterloo Sunset" >>>
Don't know why they crashed, but I did the following to
view it on a DECterm:
1 Open a DECterm (with Customize System Defaults)
2 set h mynode
3 Invoke NOTES/NODECWINDOWS (just to make sure you get the classic
notes)
4 837.1188 (to get the note with the draw)
5 EXT TT
6 WAIT (a few secs)
Good luck !
RUI
|
837.1192 | | MUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSY | Carolina Blew | Fri Dec 14 1990 21:32 | 27 |
| >Call me old fashioned but driving round waiting for those in front
>of you to drop out like Le Prof is not grand prix racing...
Actually, I agree. To me the perfect agressive passing style is
that of Our Nige. If there's any way round he'll find it... and
do so in an exciting, and FAIR, way. You gotta admit, Paul, that
there's a middle ground here. It's one thing to not try to pass
at all (and sometimes it *does* seem that's what Prost is doing,
he's a most frustrating driver to watch :^), it's another to just
go crashing people from behind.
I refer you to Nige's battle with Nelson in Australia as a recent
example of agressive-fair passing. I don't consider Senna's "attempts"
to be any such thing, he alternates between simply demanding unfair
advantage by commanding the racing line from behind and intentionally
crashing people from behind.
Fwiw, Gille Villeneuve and Jim (need I even type in his surname?) are
my two all-time faves - and neither of them were in the least bit shy
about passing.
re: RUI
Aw c'mon, I don't have a graphical term'l. What was it?
MrT
|
837.1194 | from VTX... | VOGON::ATWAL | catch a fish, eat it | Thu Jan 31 1991 11:36 | 13 |
|
The VOGON News Service
Edition : 2250 Thursday 31-Jan-1991 Circulation : 8605
VNS UK SPORTS REPORT: Ken Merrick, VNS Sports Desk
- Valbonne, France
MOTOR SPORT
* F1
There will be a change in the points system used in determining the World
Championship. The winner will now get 10 points instead of 9, and the
best 14 finishes will count towards the championship. Second place will
remain at 6 points, with 4 for third. Another rule change comes into affect
in 1992, when all Grand Prix cars must run on lead-free petrol.
|
837.1195 | Nothing for fastest lap? | WOTVAX::MEAKINS | Clive Meakins | Thu Jan 31 1991 12:23 | 3 |
| Shame there's not a point or two for the fastest lap. This might make
races more interesting where the field is very spread out and drivers
are normally taking it easy.
|
837.1196 | | CRATE::RUTTER | Rut the Nut | Thu Jan 31 1991 15:13 | 5 |
| � in 1992, when all Grand Prix cars must run on lead-free petrol.
Going on comments in recent notes, this will result in 'smelly' races !
J.R.
|
837.1197 | | FORTY2::BETTS | X.500 Development | Thu Jan 31 1991 15:38 | 5 |
|
A joke, I know, but the smell is caused by the action of the catalytic
convertor - and I can't see F1 requiring cats for a while...
Bill.
|