Conference vmsnet::car$note:carbuffs

Hi Celica fans,

My 1987 Toyota Celica GT convertable is here in the parking
lot at work and won't start.  If anyone can give me any
helpful advise as to what to check, change, etc., I'd
appreciate it!

Here goes the story:

It's an '87 Celica with and '89 engine.  Fuel injected. FE
engine.

Symptoms:  engine turns over, has spark.  At this point
I'm not sure if fuel is getting to the engine or not.  Fuel
pump is turning on (I hear it clearly.)

Previous symptoms:  

I drove the car to work 2 weeks ago, all was well, running
smooth, no problems.  It wouldn't start on the way home!
Checked for spark - has spark.
Checked if fuel was coming out of fuel filter - no it wasn't.
Possible bad gas and/or water that's frozen in lines?  
Disconnected fuel filter (major pain - and put a new one
in just in case), still no gas coming 
out after I crank it.  Go back further.  Check fuel pump.
Well, we didn't drop the gas tank in the parking lot, but
we did chissel out a hole under the back seat to get to it!
(yeah, I'll fix that later.)  Saw the fuel pump was getting
power and disconnected it.  Hooked up fuel pump to battery
and a cup of water (I know, I know, don't use water) and
it pumped for a couple seconds then locked up!.  

Ok, put a new fuel pump in and the car starts!

1/2 mile down the road, the car stops (the new fuel pump
was no longer on!).  Ok, either my brother in law reversed
the wiring (if it matters) or I got a bad new pump (possible.)

The next day I was able to start the car again and drive
it home.  I also drove it back to work again the following
day.  Then it wouldn't start (again, no fuel pump sound)
for my ride home!  Very strange.  

I took out the pump we put in and tested it too.  It just
gurgled and smoke was coming out of it!  Ok, hard hit.  I
brought it back and got another new one and put that it--this
time I put it in and paid attention to the wiring.  

Now, pump start when I crank it, but the car still doesn't
start!  It's full of gas and I'm getting spark.  But, since
I don't smell gas around the engine I suspect I'm still
not getting gas to it.  And my battery is getting low now
so every crank counts.  

I'd hate to take out that fuel filter again!  It's new
and the car was running with it fine.

Does anyone know anything about these Celica's--any sensors
that I can check out, and fuses that I can check out and/or
bypass if they're bad?  I'm kinda at my wits end.  It
does sound like the bugs somewhere in the fuel system
part of the car.  

The car's sitting in the Littleton (ljo) parking lot
if anyone is really curious and really wants to see it.

Help!  Otherwise, I may get it towed and eat the cost, but
I'd hate having it be something simple and stupid I'm missing.

thanks!

/t

[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    Fuel delivery problem?
    Electronic problem of some sort?
    
    I tried to follow along with the scenario... sounds like your burning
    up the pump.  Maybe you have some junk in your gas tank, not water, but
    rust/corrosion/sand/dirt?  
    
    It's cold up there I assume.  Depending on how messed up the tank is,
    you may have ice in it.
    
    As far as electrical problems, I initially was thinking the ecm or
    whatever the thing has is fritzing out, but I'd be more inclinded to
    troubleshoot the fuel line from the tank to the injector before I
    started trying to zero in on something.  
    
    Do you have the luxury of taking this car off the road for a day or
    two?  If you can drop the gas tank with about a gallon or two of
    gas, and pour the gas into a clear container, take a look at it.
    What's in there?  Ice cubes, dirt, rust, mice?  
    
    MadMike

Hi,

thanks for your reply.

Well, when this first happened there was only a 1/4 tank of
gas (that's why I suspected bad gas, ice, whatever.)  Well,
we put in two things of dry gas (alcohol type) and a gallon
of fresh gas just in case.  Still no answer until we got
the new fuel pump in.

And, a lot of gas got spilled out while we were testing things
out - a *lot* came out--I'll bet some of the dry gas came out
too at that time. (this was when the fuel filter was 
disconnected and we were checking for flow.)

I'm getting a ride to and from work now and the car is dead
here in the parking lot at work, so it is off the road.  
But, I've never dropped a gas tank before and I'm a little
leary doing it in a Digital parking lot!  

Hmmm, your gas line thought has me wondering.  Maybe I should
disconnect the fuel filter again (major sighhhhh--that was a
major, major pain) and check for flow again.  Major some garbage did
get in the line, but the gas tank looked fairly clean inside when
I had the fuel pump out and looked in.

Anyone have additional thoughts?  

Hmm, if the gas line is clogged, should I hook up some kind
of pressure pump to the line where the filter is (filter out)
and blow it back out into the tank (with fuel pump disconnected?)
Sounds like another painful process too...  Nothing in life
is easy anymore!

thanks,

/t

[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    Just a quick thought, fwiw, ymmv, non-tech related at the moment.
    Get your car home so you can work on it without pressure.  Not only
    that, but I remember one place I used to work had a major coniption
    about working on your car (other than checking oil) out in the parking
    lot, especially with gas (explosion hazard).
    
    One guy had a leaky gas tank and they wouldn't let him park at the
    facility.
    
    MadMike

Yeah, but right now I'm not spending on the tow to NH.  That's last
resort.  And the guards are helping me out so far and being real nice
about it--no problems yet.

I loosened the screw to the fuel pump to see if gas comes out when
I try to start it.  It's not coming out.  Clog?  How to clear a 
clogged gas line? 

/t

[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

I think the key is you need to drop the tank and investigate any sort of
in-tank pump or fuel filter, plus the line from the tank to the fuel pump. The
problem has to be somewhere in that group of items.  You're probably not
getting fuel supplied to the main pump on a regular basis so it's pumping dry
for long periods of time and burning up the pumps.  

Have you tried removing the gas cap and cranking it over?  Maybe you have a
problem in the evaporative control system that is causing a vacuum in the tank.
Were the evap control system lines hooked back up correctly after the engine
replacement? 

Jim 

Hi,

Thanks for the replies.  

The new fuel pump that I last put in is in the gas tank and is 
immersed in gas.  As far as I can see, that's the only fuel pump.
I didn't try to turn the engine over with the gas cover off this
time around (did earlier with the other pumps troubleshooting process.)
Good idea--I do know that I am getting a vacuum in the tank because
each time I unscrew the access cover to the fuel pump, there is a 
suction there.  

My brother-in-law did the engine work last time around and I don't know
if he got all the hookups correct.  Keep in mind that since he did the
engine, the cars has been running great for over a month now.  Until
all this, of course.

My next plan is to look at the fuel pump connections in detail and
see if I can see any clog from that end.

I'm a little leary dropping the tank.


[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    I believe most or all fuel injected engines have a safty protection
    circuit that prevents the fuel pump from running for any length of
    time except if it detects that the engine is running.  For starting
    the pump will only run for 15 seconds or so.  You can try this on
    most cars by just turning on the ignition and you will hear the pump
    go off after the specified period of time.  Maybe there is something
    broken with this circuitry? 

I had a fuel pump problem with my wife's 85 celica some what like your problem. 
Are you sure when you try starting the car you can hear the pump running?  Her
pump  was quiet all the time. The problem was the pump would run when it radomly
wanted to.  After some testing with a volt meter through the circut, starting
from the battery working my way toward the pump, I found only 3 volts at one
point while cranking the engine.  Up stream in that circut was the realy that
controled the fuel pump.  I pulled it out and tested the relay according to
the manual.  Well the relay passed.  I'll skip some foolish stuff I did here. 
Decided the relay was the problem.  Went to my dealer and got a new relay for
$10.  Problem solved. Her car had the 22RE engine.

Good luck,

Wayne

Hi, well, I'm going to check a few more things today, and if I can't get
it to work soon, it's time to tow it to a local garage!

The fuel pump turns on when I try to turn the car over.  I know this
because I hear it clear as day in the back--I have the rear seat off and
I have a  hole in the back floor board to access the pump, so the only
sound sheald there is now is the cap to access the fuel pump now.  It
might not be the relay for this because the pump does get power--I
hooked up my meter and the pump is turning on.  

I brought in one of those hand rabbit pumps today and am going to
check for cloggs in that area and try to put some gas forward and
backward to and from the fuel filter line to see if I can get any
gas through.  I've got top screw of the fuel filter off in theory
I should be able to pump the gas backwards through the line, but
I first want to see if the lines clear and if it comes out of the 
fuel filter first.

...looking forward to smelling like gas again!

Keep those suggestions coming!  You guys have been great!

thanks!

/t

[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

I got my car running during lunch!

I wired the fuel pump wrong, according to the directions, but the
directions were opposite from the physical marking for + and - on the
pump itself!  It's letter writing time!

The car starts and runs great.  I'm still a little leary about the
why the other pump didn't last more than a round trip to work.

I think I might get my mechanic back home to check it over for
a faulty relay or something, just to be safe.

thanks again for all your inputs!

/t

[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]