Conference csc32::fxrs89::cycles

    Hey Alpo,
    
    Anyone who really knows me, (like Chet, who started the yawning, or 
    Skip), knows I don't mean any harm and enjoy a good debate.  
    
    I'm well aware that my VERY direct style of writing, (which even wakes 
    Chet up on occassion ;^J), can, and does, offend some folks with fragile 
    egoes and thin skins...sorry, not MY problem.
    
    He also knows I'm a real detail freak and thoroughly study any 
    technologies I care to try my hand at... and I don't forget it, (except 
    maybe the occasional on the spot `brain fart').
    
    Anyway, keep up the good work and dialogue.  If nothing else, it helps
    release frustration pressures, pulls in helpful advice from those who've 
    been there, done that, and pass the experience on to those who may NEED 
    to know, (including those who THINK they do).
    
    John
    
    

    
    John,
    
    You have not offended me. I have found the content of your replies 
    to be very useful. I appreciate all the responses I get and find debate
    stimulating. Especially when it involves knowledgeable people.
    
    So, keep those suggestions, answers, and comments coming. So, dont
    worry, be happy!! :^) I assure you I will not wilt.
    
    Alpo

    Hey Alpo,
    
    Did you have the head Magnafluxed/xrayed?  Prob'ly a good idea.
    Also the block bits where they atach to the frame... a tiny buried
    crack or air pocket could spell disaster down the road.
    
    I see you're getting the cases polished... I had mine CHROMED... 
    WOW, what an eye popper!  Another big plus is that you never have to
    polish 'em again, just wash and wax.
    
    Mine were done the old fashioned way, but now they can plate ANYTHING
    (like plastic model parts) and the plating comes out perfect with NO 
    buffing.
    
    A coupla years ago one of the bike mags took a K100T anniversary 
    model BMW completely apart and sent EVERYTHING but the rubber bits
    and windshield off to be plated as a special anniversary promotion... 
    The company who did it was named "Vacu-chrome" or something like that, 
    out of California.
    
    Anyway, the key to great plating is preparation...(finish! finish!
    finish!) underneath the plating.  If it ain't smooth to begin with 
    you just get shiny lumps and scratches.  Pretty severely pitted stuff
    has to actually be built back up through brass, zink and copper
    coatings and re-polishing down.  Think of it as `bondo' and you get
    the idea.
    
    If you're worried about authenticity, just remember that any (metal) 
    things you plate can ALWAYS be UN-plated down to the original surface
    whenever you please by reversing the plating bath polarity.
    
    I've had lots of beautiful brass hardware brought back by de-plating the 
    nickel or chrome on 'em, buffing and then applying baked on clear
    enamel. 
    
    John

    
    < Did you have the head Magnafluxed/xrayed? >
    No, I hadn't thought of it and with only 5300 miles I'm not sure its
    necessary at this point. The whole bike is fairly devoid of rust and
    there is no obvious damage on any of the frame. As for the accuracy of
    the mileage, I tend to believe it from the looks of the wear and
    cleanliness of the parts. I think the 5300 is real.
    
    I'll finish this answer Monday. I have a couple of things to do yet
    before I leave for home.
    
    See ya all Monday!!
    
    Alpo

    
    John,
    
    When I first started, I had in mind to make this bike as original as
    possible. But, since starting, I have come to certain realizations and
    now am striving to make the bike as good as it can be within the
    constraints of my budget. As usual, I have underestimated the costs.
    The high ticket items aren't the ones costing me a lot, its the smaller
    mundane things like air filters, nuts, bolts, seals, gaskets, tires,
    inner tubes, new cables, hydraulic hose, brake rebuild kits, etc. The
    list is endless. By themselves, one says, no problem. Added together,
    their cost becomes quite significant.
    
    So, I have created three categories of items; must fix/replace, could
    get by without replacing, and should replace because when will I have
    such good access. Since everything is apart, I have yet again changed
    my mind and will now powder coat. I was going to use the stock points,
    but after looking carefully at the auto advance mechanism have decided
    on a Boyer Electronic unit. I am putting off all chroming at this
    moment and will probably get that done next winter. I have items like
    the console which don't look perfect but is still functional which I
    won't replace now. My primary focus is making the bike as reliable as
    possible and safe from the standpoint of function. I will be riding
    this bike a lot.
    
    As with any engineering endeavor, I am balancing many variables and
    hopefully coming up with the appropriate trade-offs. I think the bike
    will look nice, but it won't be perfect and it'll probably leak and
    leave some oil in the paddock (marking its territory :^) ). I now
    realize it will never be original and look to improve it by using
    technological advances where possible. I am going to put a Corbin seat
    on it as soon as I can afford it.
    
    I hope this gives you some flavor as to where I am headed.
    
    Alpo

    You may want to consider another brand of seat. While the Corbin is
    an okay seat, I do not think I would buy another.
    
    Maybe modify and recover the stock seat.
    
    Bert
    

    
    re: Bert,
    
    Thanks for the input. I am curious why you were not happy and what
    would you do in light of your experience? 
    
    One of my considerations has been to eventually recover the seat or
    replace it. The Corbin came to mind because I saw it advertised in
    their catalog ($260). However, the seat is not an urgent matter because
    the seat I have at the moment is solid; but, it does have a 3" tear and
    its color has faded. So, I will eventually remedy the situation.
    
    Alpo

    Alpo,
    
    I have a corbin on ny R100RT, and after about 50K miles, it is showing
    its age. It never felt much better than the stock seat, but for 
    the passenger it was a big improvement. I would get the Russell daylong
    seat for my next bike. Mike Corbin makes an okay, seat, just not a 
    great one. And I don;t think its worth the money.
    Bert
    

    Assuming the head is aluminium (and I don't know of any Norton
    that wasn't).... how you going to magnaflux it?
    
    And, quite honestly, why would one want to? Damned things are
    bullet proof. Really. They got beaten into the ground (perhaps
    deservedly) because you could go out and buy a Honda CB750 cylinder
    head WITH VALVES and CAM for the same money that Norton wanted
    for a very old design 2-cylinder head, empty. No kidding.
    
    It was foundaries that did them in. Complex castings for a lot less
    money. But (big but) the stuff you did buy, although "vintage" was
    made with VERY good materials. That's where the brits (and the
    Italians) shined (IMHO).... materials. Good fasteners. Hand jigged
    and hand welded frames. Stuff like that.
    
    /Charlie

    Alpo,
    
     The 5,300 miles has nothing to do with whether there is a hidden
     defect lurking just below the surface to let you down big time.
    
     The bike doesn't have to drip... there are such good sealants
    available these days you can practically assemble the engine WITHOUT 
    gaskets and it won't leak.  In fact, it's actually NOT DESIRABLE to 
    use gaskets because they compress and shift over time and don't tend
    to fill some of the voids a more flexible medium like a silicone 
    sealant will.  Also, when you fasten two metal parts together without
    paper gaskets, there is NO gasket to settle or compress. The actual 
    Head is the only place you must use a gasket...seal IT with copper
    adhesive. 
    
    Use Permatex Blue on everything below the head and red or copper on 
    on the top end... clean the mating surfaces with lacquer thinner or 
    Enamel Reducer before coating with a bead of sealant.  Make sure to
    pass sealant bead around BOTH SIDES of each bolt hole or stud, and
    allow the bead to `set up' 10 to 20 minutes BEFORE reassembly. 
    
    As long as the rotating shaft seals hold up. she shouldn't leak which
    is AMAZING for a Brit or Harley.
    
    There's also some blue plastic pipe dope I've got that works great on 
    oiler and fuel lines etc. I'll get the name it you're interested.
    This stuff NOT LEAK and WILL NOT come apart (unless softened with 
    alcohol).  I've seen it seal a Air conditioning gas leaks systems 
    and gasoline leaks under pressure with no prior cleanup!!
    
    One teensy dab o' this stuff on threads makes bolts/screws into
    vibration-proof ones that oil won't weep out of.  One product...so 
    many uses.
    
      John

    
    re: Bert
    
    I have heard comments from others along the same line, too much money
    for what ya get. British Supply sells a cover kit for $50. I guess it
    wouldn't hurt to try that first when I get ready to do the seat. Again,
    thanks for the input.
    
    Alpo

    re: Charlie,
    
    Your right about the alloy head and that would be pretty hard to
    magnaflux. :^) I personally don't think the motor needs to be
    magnafluxed/x-rayed since I won't be exposing the older parts to that type
    of stress. One interesting feature of old bikes, is that they have a
    history which in the case of the Commando is very well documented. The
    frame only had problems in two places; 1) up at the head stem until a
    gusset was added and 2) aft on the rear frame loop if overloaded.
    
    So, while I think magnafluxing or x-raying would be a very reassuring
    thing to do, I am going to because IMO, which could be wrong, it
    will not be necessary. I'll ask at my next NNENO meeting and run a
    quick survey.
    
    You brought up the cost factor which I am directly experiencing and I
    can compare the cost of parts for my Kwacker vs the Commando. Ready for
    this, the parts for the Commando overall are lower. Through ignorance
    and haste, I didn't tighten 4 screws and 4 sleeves which affix the
    radiator shroud to the radiator. When I went to replace them, the big
    $K wanted $6 for each sleeve and $2 for each screw. This is typical I
    believe of most J manufacturers. Low price to buy the bike, but very
    high price to replace parts.
    
    As for what did the British Bike industry in, I think it really came
    down to technology. While the British actually experimented with new
    technology, very little got put into the bikes because of their
    conservative approach. That, plus the price just overwhelmed them. I
    should have added to this IMO. Some of the Classic British Bike Mags I
    read, their demise is still being argued.
    
    Alpo 

    
    re: John,
    
    I was sortof kidding around about marking the territory. But, you make
    excellent points about how to stop the leaking which both Harley's and
    Brit bikes are supposed to do. I have a friend who claimed his bike
    initially leaked until he had a chance to go through it. Needless to
    say with a tube of scooge (as he calls it) in his hand. And what is
    very interesting is that only last week someone else mentioned not
    using a base gasket.
    
    Alpo      

    Hi again.
    
    I bought a 1967 Norton Atlas in Feb 1969 and it's sitting out in
    the garage. Rode it about daily for 10 years and it's been sitting
    since, resting peacefully. Commando is a much better motorcycle
    (but is essentially the same motorcycle). I understand about old
    British motorcycles :-) 
    
    If/when you split the cases, lap them flat and the bottom end won't
    leak anymore. You need a flat table to do that. A lot of shops used
    to have them because of this. If you get a flat formieca (no idea
    how you speel that..) table and carefully tape 1' square pieces of
    high-number emery paper to that, with just enough tape between the
    paper to hold it down, you can do essentially the same thing. While
    you have this setup, lap down the valve covers!  Something like
    wet/dry 600+ would work fine. Then you can put it back together
    according to the book and it won't leak.
    
    The stress points on that engine center on the two main bearings
    and the piece of steel that rides in them. You can't spend too
    much money on the main bearings. Find a real good bearing store,
    take one of them in (which means taking one of them out) and ask
    about its condition and various replacement possibilities. Or go
    ask Ron at Ron's in Leominster, assuming he's still there. He's
    forgotten more about Norton's than most people, etc.... But you
    probably already know that. The stock bearings in Commando's were
    pretty damn good ... you only need to do this if the engine has sat
    for a long time :-)
    
    I repeat, the head is bulletproof.
    
    The crank ain't. If you plan on spinning this thing higher than about
    4K very often (not recommended) then you should get that looked at
    too, carefully.
    
    But really, the whole motor has what, two bearings in it? The whole
    motor is bushings. So what REALLY matters? The oil. The oil matters
    more than anything else. And, happily, there have been vast
    improvements in oil since that motor was designed. Assuming the
    motor isn't one big oil pump, if you get my drift, I'd put the
    best oil I could find in it. And for my money, that's Amsoil 40w.
    If, when you get it back together, it doesn't burn oil (valve
    guides good?), or leak lots of it, I'd look into good synthetic oil
    for it. 40w oil. All IMHO of course.
    
    Nothing like a Norton discussion to bring all the smart-asses out
    of the woodwork, eh?
    
    /Charlie

    Sorry. Just reread my note. This might not be clear. Put the
    tape in the middle of the emery paper, where they come together
    in a cross, and on the outer edges and carefully move the
    cases around so that you don't hit the paper! Okay? I've done
    this and it works fine.
    
    /Charlie

    
    re: Charlie
    
    Excellent post on stopping leaks in the crankcase. As for the bearings,
    history shows that they were a real issue. The useage of two roller
    bearings was introduced at motor serial #200004. These initially had
    problems. These problems were resolved later in 1972 (Ser. #207197) with
    Superblend roller bearings by R&M first and then FAG. This virtually
    eliminated the crank/bearing problems. These bearings can be
    retrofitted into Atlas's.
    
    BTW - If you ever want to sell your Atlas, I am sure I can find someone
    that is interested.
    
    Alpo
        

    Thanks. I didn't know about that. That's good. Sounds like you're
    right on top of this. The main bearings are truly the fragile
    part of this engine.
    
    Paul Dunstall used to market a double speed oil pump. Norton
    probably went to that by the time of your bike, but I'd make
    sure of that. No kidding, oil flow is really "it" with a bushed
    engine.
    
    I have the original (late 60's) Dunstall "tuning guide" which is
    really a sales product for his machines. I'll copy the relevent
    pages on porting/polishing/tuning/etc and mail them to you if you
    mail me your mailstop.
    
    That old Atlas never left me anywhere and I even did Ohio <--> Boston
    on it a couple of times. It would sort of put your whole body to
    sleep after about 100 miles or so. The Commando is a MUCH better
    motorcycle. I'm sure you're real happy with what you've got.
    
    /Charlie

    
    RE: Charlie
    
    I don't know about being on top of it, but I have invested in as much
    reference material as I can get my hands on. Many of the pearls come
    directly from the Norton Tech Digest put out by the INOA. Some of the
    most valuable info has come from people in this notes file.
    
    I'm not sure about which oil pump is in the Commando. But it is a gear
    driven type and the scavenging pump has twice the capacity of the
    supply. I do know Norton kept upgrading the Commando through their bad
    experiences such as the Combat motor. I have been told by several
    people not to worry about the capacity of the oil pump in the 75
    Commando which is what I have.
    
    As for Ohio, that's where I grew up. Anyway, I am going to Vintage Days
    with two others in July. Should make for a nice little road trip. 
    
    As for the Dunstal info., my address is listed below with my mailstop. 
    All data is appreciated.
    
    Alpo H. Kallio
    Mailstop: AK01-3/B10
    110 Nagog Park
    Acton, Ma. 01720-3428
    
    Thanks
    
    Alpo

I was going to mention lapping parts then I read it here.

I've done a couple of Triumph leakers with valve lapping compound on a 
sheet of plate glass.  The rocker boxes spewed oil.

When we started the bike was a mess, even with gooped gaskets.  When we 
finished we ran it with home-made writing paper gaskets for a few days.

I did another Triumph for Mike Leavitt (CXO) when he lived back here.  Same 
results.

Disassemble the head and lap the rocker box surfaces on the glass plate.

Do the covers as well and the results are phenomenal.

FWIW, I try and stay away from form-a-gasket.  Too much room for mischief.  
That stuff squeezes out and gets into oil pump gears and drops down into 
oil return holes, etc.

Plain old #3 Permatex on a stock gasket works for me.  Copper-coat (better 
heat transfer) on the head gasket.

I did one primary cover O-ring with a film of silicon form-a-gasket but 
that's about the extent of it.

I hate the stuff.  All it's good for is plugging leaks in already-assembled 
engines.  i.e. FoMoCo and Chevy intake manifold back gaskets and old Honda 
or Toyota windshields

    
    Re: Leakers
    
    A friend of mine just had his '97 Heritage springer disassembled
    and reassembled by the dealer (only 100 mi on the clock). Seems
    it developed a leak when he moved it from the garage to his living
    room to tinker with it (bags seat etc.).
    
    Upon disassembly it was found that Milwaukee had neglected to
    complete the bead of sealant around the crankcase split..there
    was a 1 inch gap of missing sealant and the bottom of the
    case....
    
    He was pi$$ed..
    
    /Pat

    
    re: Skip
    
    I just want to let you know, I gave Jeff Gould a call for the powder
    coating. Seems like a real nice guy and he is quoting a very decent
    turnaround time. His price is right in the ballpark. I'll be dropping
    my frame, swing arm, etc. off within the next few days.
    
    BTW - I invoked your name with Jeff and he said "Who doesn't know
    Skip". :^)
    
    After all the good advice on lapping and sealing, my bike will either
    never leak or it won't leak for long.
    
    Alpo 

    Alpo,
    
    Yeah, I was going to mention lapping the most prone surfaces too, but
    It didn't sound like you wanted to go through that.
    
    When I saw the "lapping on Formica" note I immediately thought:
    "Oh no!  That stuff's not flat at all...use heavy plate glass."
    
    Enter Skip's note...right on. 
    
    I used to use old fashioned (black-green) Permatex on EVERYTHING,
    and I agree that it works well and cleans up nicely, but I still 
    believe the silicones are superior regardless of preference.
    1. live rubber material
    2. won't age, shrink or harden
    3. easy cleanup if has to be removed
    4. forgiving medium that can fill a void and keep it filled.
    5. can be put into service within 24 hrs.
    
    Anyway, lapping is the real answer to perfect fitting cases and 
    covers that won't loosen up or leak but it takes time that production
    line factories aren't willing to invest.
    
    The Japanese cured it with "O-Ring" and rubberized gaskets and ultra
    accurate casting processes.
    
    Skip's got the best advice AND methodology on this subject.
    
    J-
    
    

    RE: -407
    
    Hey buddy. You want to explain where he's going to get a piece
    of plate glass big enough to lap Norton cases? What'll he need,
    oh, 2' square? Better be at least 1/2" thick, unless he's got
    something real flat to lay it on, like a formica table? Cause
    otherwise, it'll be warped. Course, now if he got 3/4" thick that
    would be better. Go out and price it.
    
    I have a nice old Brown & Sharpe 12"x18" 4" thick surface plate
    in my basement. It sits next to my milling machine, which is across
    the shop from an 11" Logan metal lathe. Which is sitting next
    to a nice old SouthBend 7" shaper.
    
    It's my hobby. I do precision metalworking in my basement. I spend
    a couple of hours every night getting things real round or real flat.
    I understand flat. Flat to .000x where x is a small number.
    
    No flame intended here, but get a surface gauge and a starrett last
    word and sweep a formica table. You'll be amazed. The stuff is
    very flat. Emery paper is very flat. And cheap. It'll work fine. I've
    done this. You missed that sentence I think. I've done this. It
    works fine. I understand what fine means.
    
    Ain't you the one who recommended he get his cyl head magnafluxed? :-)
    
    /Charlie

    re. -.408
    
    Is the message: "I'm not worthy to be in the presence of `Your 
    Precision-ness'."? 
    
    Message gladly accepted. 
    
    A 3' square piece of plate glass isn't difficult or expensive to 
    come by if you know where to look, (scrounge).  A glass installation 
    co. will usually have or can recover scraps of storefront plate 
    glass they'll trim to size for $5-15. They're just going to throw 
    the stuff in the scrap/recycle bin anyway...win-win. 
    
    But milling machines, milled/precision tables, lathes and all the other 
    great sounding paraphernalia you have are a wee bit over the top for 
    what Alpo's trying to accomplish...unless you're volunteering your 
    time and stuff to his project.  ;^J
    
    "Buddy"

    Hi again. Nope. Sorry. You still don't get it.
    
    For what Alpo's trying to do, 4 pieces of emery paper taped
    to the top of a formica kitchen table will do the job just
    fine.
    
    /Charlie

    Doing it b-ass ak-ward worked for me.  Get a piece of glass at least
    large enough to bridge the longest dimension of the surface to be
    lapped.  If it's narrower than the sheet of emory paper you roll the 
    edges of the paper over the back side of the glass and duct tape it
    down.  Now you effectively have a pretty flat plane of emory to work
    with without lumps from tape or what have you.  Take all to the sink 
    and have at it with the help of a little water.  It's all in how you 
    apply the glass to the surface but it's not hard to keep things 
    relatively square given the plate of glass your working with.  This
    also allows you to read where the problem area might be before you
    hog off a couple of thousanths.  It beats using a file.
    
    Re. sealants.  I'll use silicon in my outer primary and that's about
    the only place.  On nice lapped surfaces as in above I prefer the
    spray Hi Tack gasket stuff from Permatex or equivalent.  It goes on 
    nice and even in a thin coat so minimizes squeeze out.  This assumes 
    the use of a gasket (spray both sides while hanging it from something
    and let it dry first.  Sticks like the dickens.  Yamabond is great
    stuff also.  They have a product either # 4 or 5 that is a grey goop
    that would be good for joining cases.  It sets up near hard but still
    flexible and is very strong.  Whatever squeezes out sets up like a hard
    rubber and doesn't budge.  Great stuff at any Yamaha dealer. 
                                  

>    1. live rubber material
>    2. won't age, shrink or harden
>    3. easy cleanup if has to be removed
>    4. forgiving medium that can fill a void and keep it filled.
>    5. can be put into service within 24 hrs.

     6. is easily dissolved by petroleum products


The biggest case on a Norton is the primary cover and a 1' X 2' piece of 
glass on your kitchen counter will work just fine.  You don't need to move 
the case around very far.  Oscillating through a 1" displacement is going 
to work fine so the surface needs to be a couple of inches bigger than the 
cover, that's all.

Also, the primary case uses a huge O-ring, not a flat gasket, so lapping 
that piece isn't going to buy you a lot anyways.

The engine halves never leak either.  It's the rocker covers that leak and 
you'll need a piece of glass big enough to do them , one at a time.  Now 
we're down to a 6" square piece of glass.

Window glass on a flat table or kitchen counter will do nicely.

The key is to get a flat surface to support the glass and use a grinding 
surface that'll stand up under the valve grinding compound  -- Formica 
won't but glass will.

DON'T use emery paper, it doesn't "stick" and it will round the surface as 
it bunches up ahead of the stroke.  You will wind up with a convex edge.  
Use valve grinding compound (paste)

    Another thought.  Lapping the surface does not preclude you from
    filling in gouges also.  When you get started lapping you may find
    the obvious source of leakage.  In my case it was where the cam 
    cover had previously been pried off with a screwdriver or the like.
    It became obvious that I'd have to lap much more that a reasonable
    amount to rid the surface of this dent.  I cleaned everything and 
    roughed up the dent a bit and used an epoxy metalike filler to fill
    it.  Let it dry well then resume lapping.  When you're done you'ld
    be hard pressed to find the spot again and it certainly isn't going
    anywhere sandwhitched between the mating parts.  No impact to strenght
    of the parts and you're not cutting into internal tollerances if
    they apply.
    
    Dick

    
    re: John and Charlie and of course Skip
    
    It's obvious that both of you know your stuff. I appreciate all of
    this immensely. From everything I have learned here, I think I will 
    be able to deal with most issues resulting from improperly mated
    surfaces. Thanks!!!
    
    OK!! We have all the surfaces mated correctly. Now I need the
    pistons/bore/rings to be within tolerance. I have made the preliminary
    eyeball inspection along with 3 other very knowledgeable people. All
    believe everything appears to look good. But I don't trust my eyeballs
    and will verify by measuring all the critical points. If they don't
    check out, I will have to get a new set of pistons and rings and then
    have the barrel bored and honed. I am hoping to just hone the bore out
    at this time and put in new rings along with the circlips.
    
    First, I have ordered a Starret telescoping guage which can be locked
    to the diameter of the bore. I also have a Sharpe and Brown Electronic
    caliper which is accurate to 5 10,000ths of an inch.
    
    So with all this in mind, I want to ensure the demensions of a
    bore/piston/rings and their relationship. What I would like to hear is
    which measurements are considered critical and what method/methods are
    best to make these critical measurements.
    
    Alpo

    re: .414
    
    You are right on. Both Skip and Charlie have done this, they both
    have had success.  You'll almost certainly get more accurate results 
    with the plate glass routine, but you'll get acceptable results with
    the tape-down-the-emery-paper-on-a-table routine...assuming it's
    a halfway decent table.
    I've done the emery paper business, with good success, to straighten 
    out a slightly warped cast iron fence on a wood shaper.  (Actually, 
    I used aluminum oxide paper, but the same method).  The technique 
    was first suggested to me by an old tool and die maker, years ago.
    It works, quite well, if the level of accuracy is acceptable for the 
    task at hand, and for this application it is.  If you want better, 
    do the plate glass.  It almost certainly will be more accurate.  But 
    I don't think you need to.
    
    tool and die maker, years ago.

    
    Thanks Steve, I appreciate your comments. What I have found in doing
    any project on bikes, cars, etc., each of us tends to use the best
    resource availablle to us. Sometimes its the ideal, but most of the
    time we have to compromise. My brother was mentioning to me that his
    company has a huge granite block they use and that is the best way. I
    asked him if it would fit in my car and he said no. So, since I have
    these excellent suggestions, I will use the method that best suits my
    my situation. When I build my garage with a workshop, I can then
    broaden my horizon.
    
    As for the "Sealers", I guess we all have a common bond!! Pun intended!
    
    Alpo 

    Well, a couple of years ago they were selling a bunch of "large"
    granite surface plates at Digital's property disposal center.
    But you're looking at about half a ton of granite.  Even if you got
    one, you wouldn't want to do the lapping on it as you'd affect
    the accuracy of the surface plate. You'd want to lap on something
    else and use the surface plate with spot bluing to check on your
    progress...then perhaps scrape the surface to final contact with
    a scraper, which is an art in itself.  You don't need that kind of
    precision for the job at hand.
    

    Alpo,
    
    First a note to Skip re. the RTV he obviously doesn't trust... 
    the RED is for HOT and not much good for controlling oil leaks,
    and the BLUE is for oil and not much good at very high temperatures
    (like for head gaskets).  I found out how to read the specifications
    the HARD way.
    
    Back to the Norton and your questions re bores and stuff...
    
    Make sure your pistons, rods, pins etc. all weigh the SAME, piece for
    piece, and that the rods weigh the same at the big ends and the small
    ends.  If there's an auto parts store you regularly go to that sells
    and mixes paint, they have electronic scales worthy of taking these 
    measurements.
    
    The con rods are weighed one end at a time balancing the other end
    on a point that doesn't change height between measurements.
    A dial indicator base with an arm sticking through the big/little
    end bores will do the job nicely. 
    
    This will at least ensure that your reciprocating components are
    basically `in balance' and won't be far off from a professional balance
    job.  Remember: it's the opposite of balancing road wheels... you can
    only REMOVE MATERIAL from the HEAVY objects/ends.
    
    As for cylinder measurement, you need to take at LEAST 6 readings for the 
    following reasons...  Cylinders wear in 2 ways, vertically and 
    horizontally.  The cylinders can be tapered from top to bottom and 
    can also wear out of round or egg shaped across the diameter.
    
    If you don't have the factory spec., the best way to to find out what 
    the bore is SUPPOSED to be, cut the carbon ridge off the top with a 
    carbon ridge cutter, (AKA "ridge reamer"), or very carefully by remove
    it by hand with a razor blade, then clean down to bare metal with 
    #400 wet/dry paper (wetted).  This is a spot in the bore where no rings 
    have EVER traveled and is un worn.  It should be 100% true to the 
    original or rebored machining.
    
    Next, take 2 readings of this bore `level' at right angles to each
    other and record the readings.  Also mark the edges of the bore where
    the readings were taken.
    
    Next take 2 readings, at right angles to each other and lined up with 
    the marks you made at the top, at each of 3 bore `levels' within the
    visible `stroke' of the piston ring wear pattern: bottom, mid-point, 
    and top, and record the readings.    
    
    I wouldn't recommend the method you mentioned for the following reason.
    The measurement you take with an expansion bar can easily be `distorted' 
    in the task of extracting it from the bore to take a reading off of
    the bar itself.  This can incur up to .002" worth of inaccuracy 
    depending on how careful you are/aren't.
    
    I would recommend you use a dial indicator with an inside diameter
    (i.d.) reading extension bar.  You can instantly tell the amount of 
    roundness and taper by moving the unit up and down and rotating it 
    in the bore (levelly). 
    
    If you don't have a dial indicator with bore i.d. rods, I can loan 
    you mine.  I live in Amherst, N.H.
    
    As long as the taper and roundness is within specs, (AKA doesn't take
    the next larger bore spec [usually in .010" increments] to correct),
    don't fool with it...just hone 'er and go.
    
    As for rings and setting gaps... dead easy.  simply push the new 
    rings into the most virgin or straightest part of the bore using 
    a piston (with no rings on it) as a `pusher' to keep the ring `level'
    in the bore.  Then measure the `gap' between the two free ends of the
    ring with a feeler gauge.  If the gap needs widening, simply take 
    material off the ring ends. (files don't work well on hardened rings...
    use a SUPERFINE hard rubber based grinding wheel or wet stone.
    If the gap needs to be closed up, you've got a set of rings intended
    for a smaller bore than yours.
    
    Finally, If your engine only has 5,300 miles on it, chances are that
    a quick honing is all you're gonna need to clean it up if there are
    no serious `pits' in the bore from sitting around or atmospheric
    conditions. 
    
    I've also got a hone and a piston ring groove carbon cutter if you 
    need 'em.

>    First a note to Skip re. the RTV he obviously doesn't trust... 
>    the RED is for HOT and not much good for controlling oil leaks,
>    and the BLUE is for oil and not much good at very high temperatures
>    (like for head gaskets).  I found out how to read the specifications
>    the HARD way.


One thing a lot of street rodders do is try and seal the gas tank sender 
with red, blue, black or clear silicone.

I find these guys stuck on the side of the interstate and often end up 
running to the next town for a fuel filter.  The silicone gets dissolved by 
the gasoline and globules of it wind up plugging the fuel filter.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen guys flushing RTV out of 
fuel systems.  It's not impervious to petroleum distillates.  As long as 
it's sandwiched between two surfaces, it's pretty stable.  However, 
anything that squeezes out breaks down and globs of it wind up in oil pumps 
and carburetors.

Granted, gasoline will dissolve RTV a lot quicker than oil will but oil 
will still, over time, make RTV a gooey mess.

    
    re: John
    
    First off, I recieved my Starret telescoping gauge. So, I gave it a
    whirl last night just to see what types of numbers I would come up
    with. I repeated each measurement at least 3 times and they were
    repeatable. If the numbers are correct and there is no inconsistancy
    due to the guages (none due to me of course :^)), much of the bore is
    very close to Manufacturers spec. which is 3.0300" and a rebore is
    recommended if there is a .005" difference. BTW - the 850 over sizes
    run +.020, .040, and .060 over. I have heard of a company in Milwaukee
    which offers a .080 over. 
    
    The following is what was measured:
    
    		Drive side cylinder	Timing side cylinder
    Front top		3.0310			3.0320
    Side top		3.0300			3.0330
    Front middl		3.0295			3.0320
    Side middle		3.0300			3.0340
    Front bottom	3.0310			3.0330
    Side bottom		3.0285			3.0340
    
    I also measured the piston skirt dimension and both pistons were good.
    I didn't measure the gap on the old rings because I am going to replace
    them. The gap dimension is .010-.012 for the top ring and .008-.012 for
    the middle ring. I will also measure the gap between the rings and the
    ring groove the ring sits in.
    
    So, I am going to HONE the cylinders and put Total Seal Rings in which
    many of the NNENO Chapter members have used with good success. I will
    have the barrel bead blasted and then I will squirt it with some high
    temp black paint. Before I put the barrel back on, I have to have one
    lifter cam face surface refinished and I have to decoke the tops of the
    pistons (pretty bad). I think the bike had an ignition problem because
    of the splicing in the ignition wires. Thats the one area which looks
    like it had been muked with. I will however check the jetting when I
    rebuild the carbs. The next major item after the barrel is the head. It
    is in serious need of decoking.
    
    John, what I would like to do is compare my measurements against
    measurements derived from your gauges. So, I have a keene interest in
    taking you up on your offer. Unfortunately, the only day I have
    available this week is Sunday afternoon. If thats not convenient for
    you, I will have some time next week.
    
    BTW - I live in Townsend just a few miles down the road from you.
    
    Regards,
    
    Alpo
  

    
    
    Alpo,
    
    	I was going through my snowmobile service manual last night and
    in there they're saying to use #400 wet/dry sand paper with water or
    solvent to get heads etc. smooth.  They showed them moving the head in
    a figure eight on the paper which was secured to some kind of slab that
    had a part number not a name unfortunately.  Also they use silicone 
    between the bottom cases.
    
    	Just my two cents,
    
    Scott

    
    Thanks Scott,
    
    I haven't checked the head for flatness yet, but I will be there real
    soon. I still have some tools on order which I am waiting for before I
    can totally take the head apart. So, I have delayed that aspect until I
    can do the entire head.
    
    Alpo

>    I haven't checked the head for flatness yet, but I will be there real
>    soon. I still have some tools on order which I am waiting for before I
>    can totally take the head apart. So, I have delayed that aspect until I
>    can do the entire head.


Wet the glass then put the head against the glass.  Look at the back side 
of the glass for any hourglass-shaped puddles where the head and the glass 
meet.  Those'll be the low spots in the head.

FWIW, one of the biggest reasons the Johnny-come-latelys (snowmobile 
manufacturers, for instance) tell you to use sandpaper is that they've 
never heard of valve grinding compound.  Nobody hand-laps valves any more.

You will have to find a counterperson who knows where to look to order the 
stuff.  NAPA has it and, I believe, it's in the Permatex line as well.

    
    Thanks Skip! I'll give it a whirl this weekend. Can't wait to get this
    beast together!!
    
    Alpo

    I think you can still find Clover compound in better hardware stores. 
    Somehwere in my junk boxes floats a 20 year old duplex container of the
    stuff with both fine and coarse..... 
    
    Dano'

    
    Thanks Dano,
    
    "Clover in better hardware stores."
    
    That means mine won't have any.
    
    On the general front:
    
    Got all my pieces cleaned up and dropped them off at Central Mass
    Powder Coating. Jeff said it should be done by the weekend or early
    next week.
    
    Anyway, I won't make much progress until my order comes in. At present
    I am waiting for the swing arm bushes, two bushes for the high gear in
    the tranny, new rings, some tools, etc. So I am stuck for a bit.
    
    Alpo 

    Just out of curiosity, can somebody more precisely define
    "fine" and coarse," and are you talking about aluminum
    oxide or silicon carbide compound, as they are best used
    for different applications.

    All you need to know is to use medium and fine range wet or dry paper 
    for automotive (M/C) use.
    
    Practically ALL of it is Aluminum Oxide or Silicon-Carbide.
    
    "Fine" generally runs from #400 to #1500 (can't even use it dry it
    plugs up so easily).
    
    "Medium generally runs from #400 to #180
    
    "Coarse" range are numbers lower than #180
    
     For levelling heads etc. made of alloy, I'd use #400 aluminum oxide
    paper...wet.
    
    For levelling a barrel etc. made of iron, I'd use #250-400 silicon-carbide
     
     Cheers.
    
    

    
    I got my powder coated parts back (frame, swing arm, tranny bracket,
    other small parts) and I am now beginning the process of assembly.
    My brother polished all of the cases (primary, timing, tranny) and
    they look great.
    
    Next I am going to pull my valves and thoroughly clean all the carbon
    from the head. Then I will have my head bead blasted. Whoops, I mean
    I'll have Nordy's head bead blasted. At the same time, I will get the 
    barrel bead blasted and then I will paint the barrel with Hi-Temp black
    paint.
    
    Alpo
    

    Alpo,
    
      Don't use the VHT spray paint on the barrels...it's too thin and 
    not very durable.  Also tends to flake off after a while.  
    
    I would suggest:
    
    	- powder coating (EXPENSIVE)
    	- "POR-15" brush-on paint (sorta expensive)
    
    The "POR-15" is higher temperature rated than "VHT" and one helluva
    lot more durable.  The closest thing to a combo of high temperature
    and powder coat you can get.  It's about $15-20 for something like 
    a 4-5oz. can (NOT cheap), but that's about lifetime supply for one
    vehicle, or will do about 4 sets of manifolds. 
    
    "POR-15" also comes in just about any color you want plus metallics
    that duplicate fresh/blasted cast iron, steel, aluminum etc.
    
    I have a car with cast steel headers, wierd huh? Well...it's BRITISH,
    and I guess that says it all.
    
    Anyway, I had "VHT" on those headers for YEARS and it kept flaking off
    or the rust showed through etc. and I had to re-coat them periodically
    or every time I took a long trip or went club racing. 
    
    Two years ago, I put "POR-15" on them and have been on a long trip and
    they look like the minute I coated 'em...perfect.
    
    It's GOOD S__T, Try it.
    
    It's available at most car/bike show/swap/flea meets in the area or
    contact a local speed shop and ask who carries it.
    
    I'd also suggest you blast or clean the barrels with Scotch-Brite fine
    grade, then wash 'em down thoroughly with ENAMEL REDUCER, (the best 
    darned degreaser in the WORLD!), BEFORE you paint 'em.
    
    PS I have "blasted iron" (dark-grey-ish metallic) color you're welcome 
    to use, but NORT's have black barrels as I recall, no? 
    

    
    POR-15: I'll give it a try. Its interesting that you answered a
    question I had, Enamel Reducer!! I'll give that a try that too. The
    barrel on the 75 is black.
    
    Thanks John
    
    Alpo

    Alp,
    
     Pleasure's all mine...  BTW, I USED to use Prep-Solv or Pre-Kleeno
    before painting but still got "fisheyes".  Then an old dude told me
    about Enamel Reducer and I haven't looked back since.  Even the crudest
    paint jobs I do (like rusty, greasy car parts) come out just fine with 
    great adhesion and no bald spots (fisheyes). and
    adhesion is never a problem

         Any suggestions as to where POR-15 can be found in the Souther NH
    area?  
    
    Tom

    Try local speed/performance shop.
    
    I THINK Pine St. Auto Parts. (paint div.) has it, but not sure... ask
    for Dennis. 
    
    I'll look to see if my neighbor (car body/restorer) has any info.
    
    John

    
    Haven't entered anything here for a bit because of a full plate of
    activities. This last weekend, had a house full of out-of-state guests
    who came for a party thrown for my oldest daughters graduation from St.
    Anselms College. A good time was had by all.
    
    Anyway, I can again work on Nordy which has been on the back burner too
    long. I am going to take the head and barrel to have them bead blasted
    and then will paint them.
    
    John, where is Pine St. Auto Parts, I can't seem to find any POR-15.
    While those parts are out, I will assemble the swing arm (new bushes)
    and put the tranny back together, also two new bushes for the high
    gear.
    
    BTW - I have been soaking my pistons in Gunk for the past month or so
    and the rings are still not freed. They are still carboned in. I get
    the feeling I might have to ( I hate to say this ) to pry the ring off.
    I have new rings to put on but am concerned about damaging the pistons.
    I might try to use something that will fit in the ring gap and use one
    edge of the ring as a fulcrum. I would not use the piston as the
    fulcrum. Is there another way to get the rings off? I haven't found
    anything which will readily disolve carbon.
    
    I also want to do a little polishing of the rods to take out a very
    small nick so it doesn't develop into a stress crack. Any advice on
    materials or polishing compounds would be appreciated.
    
    Got to get this beast going!
    
    Alpo

    Alp,
    
    Try soaking the pistons in Injection cleaner or carburator cleaner...
    with some acetone thrown in... Since all that stuff is evaporative,
    I'd put a piston each in a coffee can and cover it with the plastic lid
    that comes with the can... easy enough to find 'em if you don't take
    your coffee in cans.
    
    Re Pine Auto Parts... it's on, guess where? PINE St., Nashua
    
    Pine is about 2-3 blocks West of Main and Pine Auto is BETWEEN West
    Hollis St. (one-way West OUT of town to Everett Tpk.), and Kinsley St.
    (one-way East INTO town from Everett Tpk.).
    
    Best thing I can suggest is CALLING Pine Auto Parts, ask for Mark in 
    Paints, and tell him what you want... oh yeah... ask him the
    directions from where you live.  I'm sure they deliver to your area
    and know all the right street names and turns to give you the shortest
    route.
    
      John
    
    Congrats... that's one launched!  How many more?

    
    John,
    
    < Pining away for Nordy?  Nyuk Nuyk! >
    
    What do you think you are, a funny man!! :-) I guess you had to
    inject that that comment. I would think with the British theme here you
    would keep a "stiff upper lip" and not be so flippant. :-)
    
    One down and one to go! Both girls!! The youngest is 21 and hopefully
    finishes real soon.
    
    I'm in Nashua all the time so I'll probably just stop by. Also, I'll
    try the witches brew you suggest before I pry. New pistons, rings and
    circlips run about 192 bucks for a pair.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Alpo
    
      

    Alp,
    
    The only thing I flip is the bird. 8^>
    
    Anyway, give the coffee cans a little shake daily to wash off the 
    loosened gunk... it'll work, promise.
    
    The coffee can thing comes from an old drive chain cleaning trick I
    used to do.. put the chain in the can with gasoline and lacquer
    thinner, shaken, not stirred, and voila, a grease and grit free chain!
    
    To lube the chain, I would then mix up a semi-thin batch of waterproof 
    wheel bearing grease and gasoline and soak the chain in it. 
    Afterwards, I'd hang the chain up to dry, and when the gas was gone, 
    the grease stayed... even in the nooks and crannies.  Chains think 
    this treat is YUMMY!  Of course, nowdays, the chains are pre-lubed
    under pressure and have little rubber O rings to keep the grease in
    and the water out... works pretty good, no maintenance or slinging
    grease/oil. 
    
      John

    Alpo,
    
    Pine street auto is a mile down the road from my place.....want me 
    to get it fer ya.  Just DON'T tell me it's for a Norton!  ;^)
    
    Chet

Injector cleaners come in two types.  One's really not a cleaner, though.

If the can says petroleum distilates on it, it's an injector LUBRICANT
If the can says petroleum solvents on it, it's an injector CLEANER


As for lubing the chain, put it on the stove in a can of EP-90 and let it 
simmer in the warm grease.  Don't get the grease over 180 degrees.  Use a 
candy thermometer.

    
    God, my wife's going to love me. Coffee cans of this and kettles/pots
    of boiling oil. :-) All after she let me put Nordy in the basement
    instead of the shed. Ya gotta luv it.
    
    I prefer the chemical solution to dissolving the carbon than the
    prying. We'll keep trying.
    
    Chet - That sure would be nice of you. Is this the Chet I know, or is
    this an imposture!! :-)
    
    Thanks,
    
    
    Alpo

    Chet,
    
      Do you know what COLOR of POR-15 Alpo wants?
    
      The stuff must come in 10-15 DIFFERENT colors.
    
     John

      Hey, 
    
      I LIKE Skip's chain lube deal, except at the end of the day, 90W
    is still OIL, and chains want GREASE...
    
    Could one warm up grease and do the same thing with it? 
    
    John

    After all the advice here, I got some of the high temp coating from
    Pine Auto Parts.  POR-15 is the manufacturer of many paint-type
    products.  The high heat stuff is call cast paint and is $18 for 8oz. 
    They didn't offer me a choice of colors.  It recommends curing at
    300F.

    Hmmm... At the Amherst Auto Flea the first Sunday of each month,
    there's a "Por-15" dealer who's got differnt hi-temp colors to match
    fresh cast-iron, steel, aluminum, and other non-metallic `color'-colors.
    
    Maybe I'm just looking at all the colors which all the "Por-15"
    products come in, like block paints etc. I dunno, but I recall talking
    with him and the hot stuff came in a buncha different colors.  Maybe 
    they don't do that anymore...
    
    Anyway, the hi-heat stuff works pissah and doesn't burn off like the
    VHT spray/brush enamels.
    
    Curing shouldn't be any problem... that's what they make ovens for...
    If it's too big, then simply assemble and run the durned thing.
    
    Good luck, and remember.... the surface must be clean, clean, clean,
    and oil free... Enamel reducer wash after all the other prep is the 
    way to go... and if you don't have that, use acetone, which I don't
    recommend because acetone fumes are hell on your liver and you only 
    wanna use up "liver points" partying. 
    
    John

>    Hmmm... At the Amherst Auto Flea the first Sunday of each month,
>    there's a "Por-15" dealer who's got differnt hi-temp colors to match
>    fresh cast-iron, steel, aluminum, and other non-metallic `color'-colors.

Isn't that the LAST Sunday of the month?


    

    ref. .446
    
    Er... Ooops!  Brain fart.
    
    Thanks, Skip.
    
    John