Conference oass::racers

    What will Ken Tyrell do with his Honda engines, will they be 
    "B-team" mills or the real thing a la McLaren, and will the 
    ever-so-talented young Jean Alesi be his driver?
    
    Also, whither Pirelli, or wither Pirelli?
    
    MrT

    From what I have heard, Tyrell will get the Honda V10 that McLaren is
    using this year.  McLaren will get the new V12.
    
    McLaren will probably have the advantange, the Honda V10 is superior to
    most engines currently available.
    
    Bob J.

    The question is: will the Honda V12 be better than the V10
    
    - in peak power (probably)
    - in peak torque (probably not)
    - in flexibility (?)
    
    - on fast (Spa, Silverstone, Hockenheim, ...)
    - on slow circuits (Monaco, Phoenix, Budapest, Jerez, ...)
                                                
    - ???
         
    In other words will Tyrrell beat McLaren ?

    Will Nigel Mansel drive for Williams next year or will he do what he said 
    he would do at Silverstone and retire. Lets hope not!!!!

    
    Let's hope he doesn't race or he doesn't retire?
    
    Anyway, he's still saying he'll retire, but rumours have it that
    Williams are under GREAT pressure from Renault to sign a star (Mansell)
    or a top Frenchman (Alesi). Mansell was at his best with Williams IMHO
    and he seemed to be able to live with Patrese as a team-mate (but
    maybe Ricardo has improved since then?), so I think on balance it'd be
    good to see him in a Williams.
    
    Mansell seems to have become a winer and a
    chuck-it-in-at-the-first-sign-of-trouble merchant over the last season
    , but the same happened to Piquet and his transfer to Benetton (are
    they really going to be called CAMEL next year? If so I'll have one
    unhappy wife!) seems to have revived his form.
    
    Mark
    
    

    Maybe Mansell's "retirement" was a politic way of removing himself 
    from an unfavorable comparison with Prost?  If this season has proven
    anything, it's this:
    
    1. Berger isn't nearly in the same class as Prost.
    2. Neither is Mansell.
    3. Especially in light of the fact that he's had worse racing luck
       than Senna this year (yes, he had more than him last year ;^), 
       to be with 16 points of Senna and his McHonda at this stage of the
       season reopens the question as to whether Prost is better than even
       Senna.
    
    Berger's performance at Monza was typical: He pushes like crazy to
    win the early race, beats the hell outta his tires and suspension, and
    then does a quiet late-race fade.  It's no wonder that Ayrton and
    Gerhard get on so well.
    
    re: Honda V-10 vs. V-12
    
    I wonder about the packaging, i.e., will the V-12 carry a penalty as
    far as size (aerodynamics) and weight (tires) vis a vis the V-10.  
    It's been interesting this year to see the V-8s reap benefits in terms
    of tire strategy, Ricard was a real eye opener this year.  I look
    forward to some real mixed-up races on the slow courses coming up, and
    that's all we have coming up, slow courses.  Based on that, Prost has
    a real shot at catching Senna.  If Senna would just break a car or spin
    off and get zero points while Prost wins and gets 9, then we're back to
    a 7 point delta with three races left!
    
    MrT

    PROST, FERRARI, ALESI or how to win the constructor championship !

It's interesting that Ferrari only signed Alesi for 1 year.  Maybe they're
setting up '92 so Senna gets to choose his teammate?

Dave

   * Jean Alesi will drive for Ferrari next season. The contract is for 1991
     only. Williams and Tryrell, who both had signed contracts from Alesi, have
     decided not to pursue the matter.

   * Ligier will use Lamborghini engines for 1991 before switching to Renault
     for 1992. 

   * Brabham have announced that they will ue a Yamaha V12 engine (OX99) next
     season. The new car - BT60 - was designed by Segio Rinland.

    The Worcester (Mass.) Telegram had a story in Sunday's edition claiming
    that Brazilian police had broken up a organized crime plot to kidnap
    Ayrton Senna.  Details were pretty sketchy.  Anyone else see this, or
    have any further info?  Thanks.

    I heard this on Motor week tonight. I couldn't believe it. Is this for
    real?? 
                                                    M.J. 
    

From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: clari.sports.motor
Subject: Senna put under permanent security to avoid kidnapping
Date: 12 Nov 90 23:58:51 GMT
Lines: 37
 
 
	RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (UPI) -- Brazilian driver Ayrton Senna,
reportedly the subject of a foiled kidnapping plot, is receiving
permanent security precautions, police sources said Monday.
	A police vehicle was parked over the weekend in front of Senna's
house in Sao Paulo. Police were conducting joint investigations in Sao
Paulo and Rio de Janeiro.
	``If the plan really exists, the criminals can now postpone its
execution, but it's necessary to be cautious,'' police official Fernando
Costa said.
	A police source told authorities he had infiltrated a group of
criminals who were planning to kidnap the world champion driver, 30,
with the help of 15-20 men, said commissioner Jorge Gomes, chief of the
organized crime prevention unit.
	Police said the kidnapping was to occur last Thursday, when Senna
arrived from Australia in Sao Paulo in his private jet.
	Gomes said he had information the kidnapping would take place when
Senna came to Rio de Janeiro, where he normally spends vacations at
Angra dos Reis, a nearby beach.
	Costa has said that Senna's national fame would make him ``an ideal
target for kidnappers.''
	A wave of kidnappings has rocked Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo this
year, with at least 32 victims between January and September.
	In September, authorities discovered a plan to kidnap Senna's ex-
girlfriend, the famous Brazilian television star Maria da Graca
Meneghel, known by millions as ``Xuxa.''
	For the past few months, whenever possible, Senna has traveled around
Sao Paulo aboard a private helicopter in order to thwart would-be
kidnappers.
--
This, and all articles in this news hierarchy are Copyright 1990 by the wire 
service or information provider and licenced to Clarinet Communications 
Corp.  for distribution.  Except for free samples, only paid subscribers 
may access these articles.  Any unauthorized access, reproduction or 
transmission is strictly prohibited.  We will reward the first provider of 
information that helps us stop violators of this copyright.  Send reports 
to [email protected].  

    	Did anyone get an address to send contributions?
    					John
    

    Heard on ESPN: Robby Gordon, off-road phenom and Ford contract driver,
    will be given a test ride in a Benetton.  It's an interesting
    oppportunity, but his lack of open wheel experience will hurt his
    chances for a ride, no matter how well he does.

    
    MOTORWEEK ILLUSTRATED reported last night that the Doctors are
    delighted with Alessandro Naninni's progress and are now predicting he
    will race again someday!  They won't however predict when.  If that
    should come about it would really seem to be miraculous.
    
    Any new word on Martin Donnelly?
    
    Nate
    
    

.14>    Heard on ESPN: Robby Gordon, off-road phenom and Ford contract driver,
    
    I'd make that "all-around phenom".  Remember when he first broke into
    the Rousch team, beginning of this season, they claimed he'd never even
    driven a stick-shift?  Turned out to be an exaggeration, but only
    slightly.  I think he's about 20 or 21, first year in closed-wheel cars
    he won some IMSA GTO races and probably could've been champ if Dorsey
    didn't win it.  
    
    Last weekend he started his first oval-track stockcar race in the ARCA
    race at Atlanta - from the pole!
    
    Don't sell his F1 chances short, if he's got Ford backing (as well he
    should!) he's likely to be there.
    
    Of course, they might just want to take a look at him there, to see how
    he might fare - so far he seems to have off-road, IMSA, NASCAR all
    sussed pretty well.  Giving him the F1 test seems the next logical step
    in trying to find his limits (if any)...

    Oh, I agree -- he's damn good; won his first time out on pavement in
    the GTO class, in a 24 hour race no less.  I guess my point was, no
    matter how good he is, is it wise to put a guy with minimal open-wheel
    experience (and only a couple of years total pro experience) into one
    of the top levels of the sport?  It's sort of like starting a Heisman
    Trophy quarterback in the first game of his first pro season -- yeah
    he's good, but can he acclimate himself to the environment before he
    makes/has performed upon him a career-ending move?  Maybe FoMoCo should
    buy him a year of ARS, F3000, or GTP for seasoning before he's thrown
    into the F1 fire.

    On the other hand, Benetton is not a second-rate team desperate for an
    infusion of talent, and they have a lot of European young hot shoes to
    choose from, so perhaps the simple act of seeking him out and asking
    him to test is in indication that he's ready.  Goodness knows he'll
    deserve the ride someday soon, anyway.

.17>    ...is it wise to put a guy with minimal open-wheel
.17>    experience (and only a couple of years total pro experience) into one
.17>    of the top levels of the sport?  [...] -- yeah
.17>    he's good, but can he acclimate himself to the environment before he
.17>    makes/has performed upon him a career-ending move?  Maybe FoMoCo should
.17>    buy him a year of ARS, F3000, or GTP for seasoning before he's thrown
.17>    into the F1 fire.
    
    I guess there are a couple of things that come into my mind about this. 
    For one, watching the way the McLaren Demo Duo drove this year, I can't
    really see all that much argument for experience, it certainly doesn't
    equate with maturity.  For another, testing is not at all the same as
    getting a race ride.  It could well be that FoMoCo is testing to see if
    the investment in buying a year of open-wheel seasoning is worthwhile.
    
    There is a potential problem there.  GTP is not open-wheel and doesn't
    have a Ford seat for Robby to occupy.  F3000 is overseas and I figure
    Robby is a lead driver for 1991 for Jack Rousch in the road racing
    series, since Dorsey is going roundy-round.  And ARS is also not a Ford
    powerplant.  Maybe Robby could do some of the Canadian Export A series,
    or the AIS (read, obsolete Indy Cars), but there's not a lot of FoMoCo
    open-wheel seat opportunities short of the top levels of the sport...
    
    Personally, I think the best preparation would be a couple of SCCA FF
    club races, after that he'd be all set to take anything Senna and
    Berger (aka Crash and Bash) could throw at him.

	Here's a prediction for F1...pure speculation.

	Ayrton Senna will be stripped of his 1990 championship.  
	Additionally, he will be banned for 1991.

	I've already decided to vote with my dollars.  If he drives at 
	Montreal, I won't be going for the first time since '85.

	Driver of the Year?  What a pantload!
								Mike

    
    
    
    	Now It's official:
    
        Roberto Moreno will drive the second Benetton next year.
    	He signed a contract for only one year....
    	May Alessandro Nannini come back in 1992 ? 
    
    	Cheers
    				Alex

    Prost has signed a two year contract with Ferrari.  Looks like le Prof
    is planning on staying around for a while.
    
    Jeff

    Just read in PUNCH that they were planning to make a movie about Nigel
    Mansel's racing career but it would be too dull and never finish!
    
    Bob

    From various sources:
    
    California-based Nissan Performance Technology Inc. may enter F1 under
    the old "Shadow" nameplate with a US-built chassis designed by Trevor
    Harris.  Power to come from the 1992 NISMO-developed Nissan Group C
    V12.
    
    The Ilmor V10, to be run by the Leyton House team this year, will carry
    the Suzuki logo.  (No comment.)  Note that GM owns 25% of Ilmor and 5%
    of Suzuki.
    
    Prost sets fast time (1.04+) at Ricard in midwinter testing with the
    Ferrari 641.  Jean Alesi is slower, but is using the new 642 chassis. 
    Bernard Gachot (!) was in the top three with the new Jordan-Ford HB.

    A report in this morning's VNS stated that there will be a change in
    this season's scoring. First place will now get 10 pts (previously 9),
    second will stay at 6 and third will stay at 4. Also, the best 14 
    finishes will count towards the championship.
    
    The report also said that in 1992 the cars will be required to run
    lead-free fuel.

    I still don't get it.  If they run 16 races, and FISA makes each team
    compete in all of them, why not count all points finshes?
    
    Paul
    

    .re .25
    
    I aggree.  If they are going to run 16 races, lets count them all.
    
    This new scoring system will actually benefit a driver like Senna who
    tends to win or DNF because 1st gets a premium on the points.
    
    Bob J.

�    This new scoring system will actually benefit a driver like Senna who
�    tends to win or DNF because 1st gets a premium on the points.
    
    I thought this was the idea - the person who wins more gets the title !
    
    J.R.

If someone has the 1991 F1 schedule including network name and coverage
times could you please post it. Thanks.

Mark

    According to a USENET posting yesterday, Michael Andretti's first
    McLaren test at Estoril ended on Lap 2 when he selected the wrong gear. 
    Ahem.

    re: -.1
    According to an article in USA TODAY on Tuesday, Michael's testing was
    positive.  He said that he did make a mistake, that Estoril was not the
    place to go too quick too soon.  Ditto for the car.  Nevertheless,  
    McLaren management was quoted as saying that they were very pleased
    with the results.  They feel Michael would be competitive straightaway
    in F1.  Now, if only they would give him a full ride.
    
    Paul
     

    Last Sunday's New York Times has a good article on Michael Andretti's
    first test session.  It seems the track conditions were not optimal, I
    believe it was wet.  Andretti was in the V10 and ended running laps
    about 2 seconds slower than Berger in the V12.  Prost was doing some
    "race practice" laps about the same time as Berger with same results. 
    I think the times were about 1'20".  Mike did say he needed lots more
    time in the car and more familarity with the circuit.  I think 2
    seconds is not too bad for a beginner on a circuit.  Mike also noted
    that there were significant differences between the CART ride and F1,
    despite the visible similarities.  I would image this week's AUTOWEEK
    will provide more details.
    
    Jeff

RE:  .27


Don't forget either that in Senna's first "championship" year, 
Prost would have outscored him if all 16 races were included.

The way he won in 1990 was even worse.

--Lillian, the Prost fan

Ed Hinton's Friday "FYI" column in The National has some 
interesting tidbits on Americans in F1.  Seems Marlboro of Europe
is cranking up the hype about Michael Andretti stepping into 
one of the open Mclaren seats in '92.  (Michael is testing with 
the team in Silverstone this week.)  Might be an interesting time to 
be with McLaren, if Honda drops out and Daimler-Benz moves in as 
rumored.

There's a hint that the car Rick Galles' Galmer operation is 
designing in the UK isn't an Indy-car after all, but a F1 chassis 
for the illustrious Mr. Opie.  All they'd need to complete the picture 
would be an advanced engine -- like the 135-degree GM V12 with the 
transmission in the vee revealed in Autosport recently?   I wonder if 
good GM dealer and Chevy campaigner Galles might be in the forefront 
of GM's conciousness now that Roger Penske's organization is saying 
"no comment" to rumors of a Toyota Indy-car engine in the '92 Penskes?

    With the F1 season about to begin, what are the prospects for some new
    faces on the podium this year?  Has anyone heard about the testing in
    Estoril (or was it somewhere else)?  Senna hasn't driven F1 since last
    season, while Prost has been out testing all winter.  Mansell has set
    some fast times for Williams, but in a '91 spec car.  Will the smaller
    wings actually slow down cornering speeds?
    
    I am anxiously waiting for latest Autoweek to get some answers, since 
    this note has been so quiet.  
    
    Jeff

>    With the F1 season about to begin, what are the prospects for some new
>    faces on the podium this year?  Has anyone heard about the testing in
>    Estoril (or was it somewhere else)?  

Best bet: Jean Alesi new for Ferrari. According to one source, 
he's been faster than the Professor "...on the same tires..." But 
I believen Prost was NOT present at the same testing, so maybre 
the comparison is misleading. Anyway, he did very well in a less 
competitive car (good chassis, mediocre motor) last year, so he
looks pretty good for this year.

Other good rumors around?

--Lillian

	I talked to my mother in Phoenix and she says that so far the
	newspapers there have had only a very small article buried in 
	the back of the sports pages about the F1 race this weekend.

Has there been any news from Phoenix this week?  I assume practice starts 
tomorrow.  I wonder what the racers think of the modified circuit configuration.
I also wonder if the teams preparing new cars (Ferrari 643, McLaren MP4/6, 
Benetton B191) will bring their new hardware or wait until the first European 
round.  Hopefully ESPN will be carrying the race live.

    There have been a couple of articles this week in the USA TODAY about
    the USGP.  The first, which appeared yesterday, talked about the new
    course layout.  It is supposedly much faster than the old one and the
    drivers' impressions were favorable.  They also are hoping for an
    increased crowd from last year.  According to the article, the local
    promotions are much improved over last year??
    
    The second article, which appeared this morning, talked about the Lotus
    team.  To me it sounds like the team is in a pretty sad state of
    affairs, but they are optimistic about their chances for improvement. 
    They feel they have good drivers and the car is at least a better
    starting place than building from scratch.  They really need a major
    sponsor!  Only time will tell if they are going to move forward.
    
    Bob J.

    >> They also are hoping for an increased crowd from last year.  
    
    Is he bringing his dog this year?
    
    Mark :^)

    According to the cable guide, the USGP will be broadcast 8:30PM EST,
    taped. 
    
    Gary

    Greetings from London.
    
   Does anyone think Alesi will repeat this weekend his stunning start to 
    F1.
    Personally I can't see it,but as we know the first corner can make all
    the differance at a circuit such as Pheonix.
     I really think Mansell with his new hunger will be a force to be 
    reckoned with..
             
          p.s watch out for the young Scot Alan McNish.The next British
    world champion....You heard it hear first!!! 

Well, this season looks depressingly familiar.  Mr. Senna (wearing a
Mr. Senna T-shirt in the post-race interview) qualified a second faster than 
the rest of the field and motored away, leaving the fight to the Ferraris 
(to be fair, Phoenix is not their type of circuit), the Williams (poor Frank
doesn't need this kind of stress), and the Tyrells and Benettons.  

Obviously, if the stories of Senna's four month vacation are true, and if the 
stories of the MP4/6 being "hardly tested" are true, it's going to be a long, 
long season, because when Senna hits his stride and the chassis gets fully 
sorted, the McHondas might approach their 1988-89 level of dominance.  Of 
course, Phoenix is not representative of the majority of F1 tracks, so it's 
dangerous to predict based on this one event.  The engine sounded wonderful, 
and Hobbs related Prost's comments about the excellent roadholding of the 
McLaren, which was reinforced by watching them handle the bumps on the track 
and put the power down in the corners. 

I couldn't decide if the circuit revisions made the race more interesting, or 
whether ESPN just picked better camera angles.  I also couldn't believe the 
officials just left the Williams and Moreno's Benetton where they did.  Lucky 
Patrese: had he bailed out when he first came to a stop, before Moreno clouted
him, he might have been badly injured.

And they say CART is a closed club: the podium held every World Champion since
1983, save Lauda.

Top five:

	1) Senna (pole no. 53, new record; win no. 27, ties the Wee Scot)
	2) Prost
	3) Piquet
	4) Modena
        5) Nakajima
        

It may be fairly early to start guessing at this one. It sure looks 
like Mr. Berger isn't up to the McHonda domination game. Is this 
Michael A's '92 drive? I always liked Mr. Berger and thought he'd be 
right up there in front. Will he be banished to the backmarkers like 
Stephan Johanson(sp?) who I also thought to be talented.

    McLaren has, at least under Ron Dennis, always brought their cars out
    "late".  The old, "It hasn't turned a wheel till now" story.  Since
    1984 they have done extensive testing and preparation before ever
    seeing the track.  And it works.  I believe the new McLaren is a fine
    car.  But not significantly better than, say the Ferrari, Williams or
    Benetton.  Senna is another story.  Like him or not, he is the most
    talented driver around.  Phoenix was a text book drive - perfect, no
    mistakes.  Can Senna do that for the season?  Don't know, but he
    doesn't have to if he wants the championship.  He just needs to be
    better than anyone else.
    
    I think the competition will be there and that others will win races,
    but Senna, rested and healthy, looks to be ready for the test.  I'll
    tip him to repeat.
    
    I think the comment on Berger is correct.  He's good but seems to be in
    that humble category of "not a Senna" driver.  In any other era, he
    would look better.  Compared to Senna, well???
    
    Paul
    

I'll keep to myself any direct comments about Mr. Senna, except to 
say that only his ego and disregard for sportsmanship outweigh his 
right foot. The V12 McHonda is clearly the class of the field 
mechanically, both in horsepower and handling. I suspect that Senna 
is enjoying having a second-rate driver in the other seat -- 
Berger has not been the same since his Monza crash-and-burn and 
never really lived up to the potential he seemed to show when 
running with -- what was it -- Bennetton? Suffice it to say, I 
found it a depressing spectacle. 

What do y'all think of the new rules: 10 points for first, with 
the rest of the point structure the same, and all 16 races now 
counting in the final standings? I'm disappointed. The 
9-6-4-3-2-1 structure worked for decades; the dropping races 
concept never worked. I'm glad to see the full schedule counting 
again, but not happy with the extra point for first. To my mind 
the 9-6 accounting a nearly perfect structure, like the distances 
on a baseball diamond.

--Lillian, the totally unopininated  :)

    I watched about the first hour of the race. It definately seemed that
    the McLarens had the right suspension setup for that bumpy "track". 
    One question tho --- when the commentator (not Hobbs, the other guy)
    was talking about the Lotus team, I swore I heard him say "mumble
    mumble Lotus team, backed by Colin Chapman". Huh ?? Didn't Chapman
    die about 4 or 5 years ago?? 
    
    Steve

    re .46 - I watched a bit of the tape and heard something about the
    Lotus team "founded by Colin Chapman", which is correct.  Chapman died
    several years ago, the team was never the same since.
    
    also, regarding the smoothness of the McLarens, the ESPN announcers
    were talking about that, and I think it was Hobbs who pointed out that
    Senna was smooth as silk but Berger was dirt-tracking it all over. 
    Wonder if it is really the cars?

    re: .47
    
    Ahh, that makes more sense -- I guess I just heard wrong. You're
    right, the team hasn't been the same since Chapman died.

    
    	Hi !
    
    	I don't want to bore you with my comments about Piquet.
    
    	I'd like to know what you think about Ferrari: here in Italy
    	there were great expectation for this race and, after the great 
    	Senna's performance, there is a great disappointment.
    	I'm not a Ferrari's fan but I can't understand how a team like
    	that, with a great budget, wasn't be able to win a World
	championship in the last 12 years.
    	
    	And what about Mansell's performance with Patrese ?
    
    	Last thing: at this moment Alessandro Nannini is in Austria and is
    	 	    doing a specific therapy for his arm injured.
    
    	Does anybody know something about Martin Donnelly ?
     	
        Cheers,
    					Alex          

    >>	And what about Mansell's performance with Patrese ?
    
    What do you think, Alex?
    
    >>	Does anybody know something about Martin Donnelly ?
    
    Presumably Nannini is at Willi Dungl's place? Donnelly certainly is
    and is busy trying to get fit for San Marino (didn't look very likely
    from the look of him, but...) and put his weight back up to 70 kg from
    40! I saw an interview with him which was shown on satelite TV and he
    kept yawning. Obviously he has a long way to go to be 100% fit, but
    he said all his injuries were clean breaks and should heal properly
    and quickly, unlike Johnny Herbert who had mainly crush injuries to
    his legs.
    
    Mark

    
    
    	Mark,
    
    	I don't understand why Mansell drove in that way. I think that
    	Patrese was faster than him in that occasion and Mansell forced
    	him to go off road. We have to remember that they are companions
    	and I think that it's not a good behaviour between two drivers 
        of the same team.
    
    	If I don't remember bad, Mansell is not new to this kind of
    	problem ( Estoril '90 with Prost ,the last one ).
    	It's a pity, because Nigel is one of the greatest driver but
    	sometimes he is too much istinctive.
    
    	What is your opinion about ?
    
    	Cheers and ...   Come on Magic Nelson !!!
    
    					Alex
    	

    
    FWIW, Alex, I agree 100% with what you say about the incident and
    Mansell in general.
    
    Mark 

        Alex, 
    
        Hadn't heard from you in a while, how are things in Italy. I'm
    looking forward to San Marino and other races after that when Benneton
    brings out the new car for Nelson, I thouhgt he drove a very good race
    not being able to win he drove for maximum points. I think N.P. has 
    very serious thought about his Fourth World Driving Title, hope the 
    new car and Series 5 Ford are a good combo.
    
       I think Mansell was at times just as quick as Patrese but the gear
    box in the William was giving them both problems.  I read in CARS_UK
    that Patrese's spin was caused by the Semi-Auto packing in an locking
    the rear wheels no driver error although Riccardo was driving very hard
    from the start.   The Tyrrell's looked really good and showed the best
    reliablity results as both finished and were in the points with new
    Engine and revised Chassis working very well nice to see they may be
    back, might even win a race with Modena!!
    
                                                           Mark
    
    

    Alex,

    I think it is a bad mistake to discount Ferrari so easily and
    earnestly. The last two season Ferrari has always started too damn
    well, and regularly would end up holding dust. The game here is too
    adapt, compensate, and adjust. Ferrari has the pilots and resources to
    do just that.

    Insomma, chi comincia male finisce ... 

    1991: L'anno dove i traguardi si tingeranno di Rosso Ferrari

    HELLO RACING FANS !CIAO ALEX FROM ANOTHER ITALIAN
        
        I have been looking forward to the Grand Prix season for quite some
    time now.I bought my tickets for the Canadian GP to be held on June 2
    at Montreal one month ago and could hardly wait to see and hear the
    roar of the incredible machines in Pheonix. 
        I am proud to say that im a Ferrari fan, but I also like to see
    competition, and this year finaly seems to be the year to satisfy my
    apetite. With Porsche back into the fray of things and Ferrari and
    Honda supplying extra engines to Minardi and Tyrell things seem in
    place for some real racing,not complete domination by Mclaren.The race
    in Pheonix featured an impressive drive by Senna, but it also showed
    how this year will be competitive. Most teams made a strong showing
    here, although many of you will disagree with me, but don't forget this
    course is probably the toughest course for the cars.I know that things
    will be very tight for the next race in Brazil.
       I venture to predict that the Brazilian GP will be won by Piquet
    with Prost second Alessi third and Senna fourth. This race will prove
    that the Mclaren domination is over. BUT..if Senna is to win in Brazil
    which I am sure he is favoured to do, Mclaren will dominate 91.
    

I think changing both the point structure and the number of races that count
was a little drastic.  I agree that just making all 16 races count towards
the driver's championship would have 'calmed' things down a bit towards the
end of the season.

As for Patrese's car getting stuck in gear, how would you get it in neutral
if the engine's not running?

Dave

    
    
    	Dave,
    
    	I think that the change of point structure is a good thing:
    	in this way the drivers will have the goad to win more races, 
    	just like in English football where the victory gives 3 points
    	(while in Italy, for example, it gives 2 points ).
    
    	I don't think that the count of all 16 races is a good idea because
    	in this way the World Championship won't be win, probably, by the
    	faster driver but by the more regular ( do you remember the '77
    	W.C. when Lauda won for example ? ).
    
    	To conclude, I think it's a nonsense to favour the drivers to win 
    	and, at the same time, to tempt them to conclude as many G.p. as
    	they can.
    
    	Will the 1991 W.C. be a "tactical" competition ? 
    
    	Hope it won't be....
    
    	Cheers..
    					Alex 
    
    	

    re: .56
    Dave -
    
    I'm not sure I follow.  How was changing the point structure
    not good?
    
    Paul
    

I just didn't see a need to change it.  The problem was having 3 races left in
the season with the championship all but decided, where one driver had to do
very well in order to win it, while the other didn't have to finish at all.
This lead to the accidents near the end of the last two seasons.

this problem could have been corrected by just making all 16 races count, they
didn't have to raise winning to 10 points.

The Driver's Championship *should* be a tactical win.  It would also be nice 
if the winner won the most races, but the championship shows who the best
driver was *all season*.  A number of fast and flamboyant have not won the
championship, and some pretty boring ones have, but you shouldn't be able
to win it on flash alone.

Dave

Re: a few back about Porsche being back in F1.

I've been a Porsche fan for a long time. HOW COULD THEY PUT AN ENGINE 
IN AN ARROWS?????? How could they drop the Indy car team to build an
engine for a backmarker?

I am sure they would like someone to pay for a 3.5 liter engine so 
they can run in the WSC again. I don't think that's reason enough for 
a company like Porsche to put an engine in a backmarker.

Wake me up when it's over!

    
    re. -.1
    
    	The answer to your query - $.  Lots of it.
    
    a mild flame -
    
    	In my eyes Porsche's reputation has slipped badly.  Since the
    	early eighties when the 962/956 was so dominant, as was the
    	TAG-Porsche-McLaren, they have had little to show for their
    	motor racing efforts.  The recent successes of the sports car,
    	at for instance Daytona, can largely be attributed to the
    	tenacity of their independant customers.  More tenacity than
    	Porsche themselves have shown for sure.  I guess they
    	overestimated their own ability/resources or underestimated those
    	of their competitors.  'Tis a shame.
    
    	Nate

Note also that a lot of the current 962-class vehicles are privately 
built chassis with 962-like aerodyamics and Porsche (often Andial-built) engines.
I think Rob Dyson's 962s were built at Dave Klym's shop in Atlanta.
So the successful Porsches often aren't even Porsches.  I agree with the
sentiments expressed by others, it's a damn shame to watch a company with
Porsche's heritage decline in such an embarassing manner.

The locals in Phoenix must REALLY HATE F1.  Not only did the Leyton House team
get sabotaged overnight Friday, with wiring harnesses cut and other damage done,
but Alain Prost's hotel room was boosted, relieving him of $12,000 and some 
personal items, while Mr. Senna's room was also invaded.  Luckily the World
Champion only lost a casette player, some clothes, and his cologne.  One can
assume these incidents were not the kind of publicity that Phoenicians hoped for 
when they agreed to host the race.

    Re: Porsche's demise
    
    It truly is a shame. The dealers are certainly upset as well. Racing
    accomplishments help sell cars and all they have is memories.
    
    Not too surprising tho, all the driver/engineer/director-types that
    developed, drove and campaigned the 908s, 910s, 917s, 956s, and 962s
    have moved on. Many have retired, the rest have moved to BMW and
    Mercedes along with Porsche and Piech family members. The only two
    remaining are Butzi and Ferry. US market share(read allocations) went
    from 60%+ to 30%+ last year. Theres plans to offer club racing in the
    US, subsidized, not sponsered, by the factory. But with all the new hot
    iron available what's the point? Do they think they can regain the past
    prestige with one marque racing? Boggles the mind.
    
    Bob

    
    I wonder if Porsche appreciate how much they are hurting their image
    in the US? As a keen follower of Sportscar racing throughout the '80s,
    I came to respect (if not like) Porsches because of their reliability
    and performance on the track. Their results against serious competition
    at Le Mans only heightened that respect, but I find (like you) it
    difficult to comprehend how Porsche feel they can improve their image 
    by backing tail-end sportscar teams with 5 year out-of-date designs and
    an overweight V12 engine in a tail-end F1 car.
    
    Jaguar and Mercedes are both feeling the pinch in Europe and the US,
    but I suspect that they are doing better than they would have done
    without their racing programmes.
    
    I wish Porsche would pull out their fingers and build a '90s Group
    C/IMSA car and get back up the front where they belong. 
    
    Mark

>The problem was having 3 races left in
>the season with the championship all but decided, where one driver had to do
>very well in order to win it, while the other didn't have to finish at all.

>this problem could have been corrected by just making all 16 races count, they
>didn't have to raise winning to 10 points.

>The Driver's Championship *should* be a tactical win.  


Here, here! The system of dropping races led to a driver *losing* 
the championship after scoring *more* points than the eventual 
winner. Racing involves much pure circumstance -- who happens to 
run over debris? Who happens to be the first one into a rainstorm 
on the back section? Mechanical failures are bound to happen and 
not always from driver abuse. Race wins are one thing, but 
season-long performance should be part of a season-long 
championship.

As for 10-6 versus 9-6: Over a season, are three seconds worth 
two wins? Or, as it is now, should it take five seconds to equal 
three wins? That's a difficult question to answer, but I think 
experience in NASCAR and CART shows (although they are a bit 
extreme) that not giving disporportionate weight to each win 
keeps things closer over a season, keeps more people in the hunt, 
and minimizes the effect of chance during a given year.

I think, at least, FISA should have changed only one variable at a 
time. If no longer dropping races had led to obvious inequities, try 
the other change later on, but give a year or two to allow 
better evaluation of its effects.

--Lillian

.63>  The locals in Phoenix must REALLY HATE F1.  Not only did the Leyton House 
.63>  team get sabotaged overnight Friday, with wiring harnesses cut and other 
.63>  damage done, ...
    
    Actually, my immediate reaction was that the Leyton House sabotage was
    an inside job.  Not local talent.
    
    Sounded too much like something that would hurt the team considerably,
    would not cause a safety problem by going undetected (too obvious), and
    required access to areas under considerable security.  Took too much
    knowledge of the inside details for me to believe it was casual.  I
    wondered who had a grudge, maybe a former mechanic felt he got a raw
    deal or something?
    
    Definitely not nice, though!
    
    
    As far as Porsche's current fortunes, remember that really top
    world-class talent is not easy to come by.  The loss of Al Holbert
    certainly hurt them a lot, and probably still hurts.  The budget
    constraints for the past years that stagnated the GTP and WSCC
    developments are another painful factor.  Sometimes, reality sucks.

.51>                               -< My opinion... >-
.51>    	I don't understand why Mansell drove in that way. I think that
.51>    	Patrese was faster than him in that occasion and Mansell forced
.51>    	him to go off road. 
    
    I was confused when I first read this, probably because I hadn't
    finished viewing the race yet.
    
    Now that I've watched the whole tape, I'm even more confused.  Was this
    comment referring to the incident when Mansell was being overtaken,
    started to turn in, and managed to avoid contact with an insane
    late-braking overtaking teammate who slid down the escape road as
    reward for his antics?  
    
    If that is the incident under discussion, I probably should repeat my
    comment to my wife when I replayed it:  "Mansell did an incredible job
    to balance the car sideways after turning in like that!  That's about
    the best display of driving skill you could ever hope to see!!!" 
    
    (actually, the verbatim transcript was probably more like H**Y S**T!!! 
    LOOK AT THAT F*****G INCREDIBLE DUMB-S**T PASS!  WOW, MANSELL SAVED IT
    ANYWAY!  GREAT JOB NIGEL!!!, but you get the idea... :-)

    
    Opinions certainly do vary on this, but the incident is probably
    better taken in context. 
    
    These drivers are teammates and Patrese was obviously faster than
    Mansell. Mansell had been deliberately obstructive for a number of laps
    (why? Didn't like the idea of his 'no problem No. 2' getting ahead?)
    and then he forced Patrese to make a bid for that corner. To me it 
    looked as if Mansell had finally decided to move over (maybe he had)
    but that he then decided to make a point by braking as late as 
    possible for the corner. This forced Patrese to leave his braking late 
    and then Mansell appeared (to me) to get his car sideways on the
    slippery surface leaving Patrese with no option but to hurtle straight
    up the escape road. Mansell DID do well to avoid a collision, but what
    was he doing trying to hold up his team-mate at that early stage of the
    race?
    
    Mark
    
    PS I watched this with a long-time Williams and Mansell fan and he 
    couldn't understand what Mansell was playing at either!
    
    

.69>    and then he forced Patrese to make a bid for that corner. To me it 
    
    Aw, come on.  NOBODY ever forces a driver to make a bid for a pass, the
    overtaking driver choses to do so.  It's the responsibility of the
    overtaking driver to chose a feasible and safe pass, and the
    responsibility of the driver being passed to allow the pass to be
    completed safely.
    
    I've got to review the tape again, I didn't see anything that I
    considered objectionably blatant blocking by Mansell (but then again I
    wasn't looking for it).  As far as being faster in early stages of a
    race, there is a tradeoff between brake and tire wear and speed, which
    may be made in car settings or driving style.  Again, without reviewing
    the tape I can't be sure, but I didn't see anything that convinced me
    that Patrese was decisively quicker than Nigel.  From where I sit it
    seems they may both have been wrong, Patrese's pass was just the more
    obvious blunder, and Mansell's adroit save made him look better than
    perhaps he should've.

    
    Er, isn't F1 all about winning? To win you have to overtake cars in 
    front of you (unless you're Senna in which case no-one gets in front!).
    
    Tyre wear? Brakes? Mansell was slower because his automatic 'box was
    giving him more trouble than Patrese's was giving him.
    
    From where you sit Patrese made the bigger mistake, from where I sit
    Mansell's strange desire to keep his teammate from hassling the
    opposition when he couldn't seemed the bigger mistake. If Patrese had
    taken second Mansell would now be 2 points closer to Prost, but on the 
    track he seemed keener to keep his team-mate back than to see his real
    rivals beaten.
    
    I don't doubt (does anyone?) that Mansell has fantastic car control and
    (to repeat a statement I made in CARS_UK) I hope Mansell is world
    champion soon, but if he's going to waste valuable time and effort
    fighting his team-mate he'll not be in a position to win anything.
    I also thought that he lost control of his car in the braking area,
    but only he can really know that.
    
    Maybe you think TOO much of Mansell to see when his determination is
    getting the better of his judgement?
    
    Mark

.71>    Tyre wear? Brakes? Mansell was slower because his automatic 'box was
.71>    giving him more trouble than Patrese's was giving him.
    
    Like I said, I hadn't particularly noticed anything so glaring that I
    couldn't miss it.  Not to say I couldn't be wrong, but it makes me
    question just how great the speed differential really was.  FWIW, if
    there was a truly significant speed differential due to gearbox
    problems, I would expect it to be difficult if not impossible to
    prevent a pass (consider how gearbox problems will manifest
    themselves). 
    
    Anyway, there are strategic errors and tactical errors.  Strategic
    errors cost wins and points and championships.  Blocking ones teammate
    would seem a strategic error.  Tactical errors cost broken cars,
    injured drivers, and repair budgets.  Misjudging late braking seems a
    tactical error.  The consequences of tactical errors are more serious
    and more immediate, therefore I still consider Patrese's attempted pass
    to be the more obvious and serious mistake.  His frustration at being
    blocked may explain it, but it does not excuse it.

    well, I reviewed that part of the tape of Phoenix last night, and I've
    changed my opinion.
    
    I don't think I saw anything I'd call blocking by Mansell prior to the
    incident to which I referred.
    
    I'm not sure whether or not we're actually discussing the same
    incident, although I don't see any other that might contribute to
    confusion.  For the sake of harmony I'd like to discover there was
    another, but I doubt it.
    
    The incident I am discussing occured about lap 20, on the turn coming
    off Washington St.  The ESPN TV feed had been on a commercial break for
    about 1:30 just previous (that's approximately 1 lap, no more).  I have
    no idea what the overseas TV feed looked like during that period.  Before
    going to the commercial break, ESPN had followed a three car battle for
    second, third and fourth place for a couple of laps.  The three cars
    were (in order) Prost, Mansell, and Patrese.  At no time did the
    seperations between any of them seem greater than a few car lengths.
    
    While following the battle, the ESPN commentators made some very
    interesting (and a couple of curious) comments:  they first commented
    that Mansell was coming under pressure from his teammate then wondered
    what James Hunt might be saying, with an explanation that Hunt was
    rather nationalistic and last season denigrated Boutsen for not being
    dominant over Patrese (as should be expected from a real world-class
    driver such as Mansell :-).  There was a brief comment about Mansell's
    gearbox problems in morning warmup, it was missing or jumping out of
    gears, to which Hobbs murmured something about that sounding nasty. 
    This was followed within seconds by an observation that they were both
    reeling in Prost (which convinced me that the posited gearbox woes were
    illusory).
    
    While all this was going on the cameras showed all three cars. 
    Watching closely to try to verify the previous assertions in this
    conference I could not see anything that looked like serious blocking
    to me (Mansell was weaving occasionally, did not look exaggerated or
    defensive, did look like a bumpy track).  I did note that about a lap
    and a half before the incident, Patrese took a look to the inside of
    Mansell and did not pass, under braking, he clearly had no shot.  I
    also did note that just before the commercial break, one lap before the
    incident, at the same corner as the incident, the three car train was
    passing backmarkers and as they passed Tarquini Mansell took a look at
    passing Prost for second place - hardly an indication that he was
    non-competitive!
    
    As we came back from the break, the shot had the three cars coming down
    the straight (Washington St.?) before the incident, with Prost having
    pulled just a couple of car lengths from Mansell with Patrese close
    behind, just as before.  Patrese took a look and then tried a late
    braking pass similar to the one he had foregone just a couple of laps
    earlier.  He should have refrained again, IMNSHO.
    
    To review:  Mansell showed nothing at all for me to criticize in the
    telecast evidence available to me.  Patrese was racing Mansell for
    several laps (not being blocked by him).  Mansell was racing Prost for
    second place during the same period (not consistent with being crippled
    by a balky 'box).  The gearbox problem as described seems likely to
    have made a much more obvious and significant effect on Mansell, thus I
    do not find it particularly credible.
    
    So, my revised opinion:  Mansell made no error, strategic or tactical,
    that I could discern from my vantage point (and I find it unlikely that
    there would be sufficient evidence supporting such an allegation
    available to anyone not having a much better vantage point, eg
    trackside).  Patrese made a tactical error by overcooking it under
    braking, just as I had previously believed.
    
    
.71>    Er, isn't F1 all about winning? To win you have to overtake cars in 
.71>    front of you (unless you're Senna in which case no-one gets in front!).
    
    Um, yes, isn't part of winning not rolling over by letting drivers
    behind pass when you can hold them off on equal terms?  Especially when
    you are also making credible efforts to pass the car immediately in
    front of you, who happens to be lying in second place?
    

    
    We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I haven't got the tape 
    to review it, but I know what I (and the others watching it with me)
    felt when we saw it. Why was Mansell holding up his faster team-mate?
    
    OK it pays to beat people, but this was VERY early in the race (less
    than 1/3 distance) and Mansell was losing time on Prost by trying to
    hold Patrese up, as we saw it.
    
    Mansell himself claimed to have a faulty gearbox (I can only go by
    what he said) and was obviously not as fast as Patrese as Patrese had
    caught Mansell over the previous few laps (passing people on the way)
    while Mansell had a few early stabs at Prost and then settled back.
    
    IMO, Mansell was trying to stamp his authority on the Williams team
    instead of getting on with racing the opposition. Still, as both cars
    retired due to duff gearboxes, it's academic really.
    
    Mark

    There was some good racing between Mansell and Patrese.  At the time of
    the incident, Patrese was the faster car, but not fast enough for a
    clean pass.  I give credit to both drivers for avoiding contact.  I was
    reminded of the comment that Mario Andretti made about Senna's
    attempted pass of Prost in the Japanese GP, which was something like,
    "there might have been an opening, but it wasn't big enough for a car." 
    My opinion of Patrese has escalated over the past year.  He has shown
    consistent speed, and usually thinks about finishing.  The increased
    competitiveness of the Williams chassis certainly helps.  Mansell is
    still a bit of a wild man, hard on the car, but a great driver to
    watch.  It will be interesting to see if Williams or Benetton is the
    main challenger to McLaren and Ferrari.  On to Brazil, where I hope the
    Ferrari team can seriously challenge the McLarens.  Here is my first
    guess of finish: Senna, Prost (but I hope Alain wins), Mansell, Piquet,
    Patrese, and Modena.  Hope that Hakkinen can keep his steering wheel on
    and show a good finish.  Gachot and EJR also might crack into the
    points.  
    
    Does anyone know what time the race will be broadcast on ESPN?  I must
    say I enjoyed their 2� hour format, with post-race interviews.  
    
    Jeff

    
    I beleive the race will be broadcast at 4:00 PM Sunday afternoon.
    
    Nate

Article          431
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From: [email protected] (MICHAEL MOLINSKI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.motor,clari.sports.top
Subject: Rough start for Brazil Grand Prix
Keywords: motor sports, men's professional
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 21 Mar 91 20:08:01 GMT
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Codes: ysaprxx.


        SAO PAULO, Brazil (UPI) -- A bus strike and the heaviest rainfall in
40 years threatened Thursday to disrupt the Grand Prix of Brazil as
Formula One drivers from around the world arrived for Sunday's race.
        Although there was little chance of a delay in the race, the
paralyzation of traffic and mass transportation in Sao Paulo was putting
a damper on tourism in a city that loves Formula One racing and idolizes
its heroes.
        Time trials were to begin Friday morning at the track at Interlagos,
on the southern tip of Sao Paulo.
        Local favorite Ayrton Senna, who turned 31 Thursday, was attempting
to win his first Brazil Grand Prix after a first-place performance two
weeks ago in the U.S. Grand Prix at Phoenix.
        ``Senna is the man to beat,'' British driver Nigel Mansell said
Thursday as he toured the track.
        Senna's archrival Alain Prost, the all-time top-ranked Formula One
driver and the defending champion at Interlagos, has plans to win his
seventh Brazil Grand Prix.
        ``I get no special pleasure of winning a race in Brazil simply
because ofSenna,'' Prost said of his former teammate. ``I want to win
but with or without Senna on the track.''
        Senna stands to claim his first Grand Prix victory in his home
country and also move into second place behind Prost for career Grand
Prix victories. Prost has 44 triumphs, followed by Senna and Britain's
Jackie Stewart, each with 27.
        Officials at Interlagos said the track was ready and in good
condition despite Tuesday's severe downpour which killed at least 20
people, destroyed homes and roads and caused the worst traffic tie-up in
Sao Paulo history.
        Sao Paulo already has received more rain this month than in any March
in 40 years, and combined with added tourism this weekend for the Grand
Prix, the metropolis of close to 20 million people is expected to be a
madhouse of congestion.
        On top of that, a busdrivers' strike that began Thursday morning left
thousands of buses remaining in terminals, stranding millions of
workers. Lucio Gregori, the city's transportation secretary, said he
hoped to negotiate an end to the strike before the weekend.
        ``There are other ways of getting around -- taxis, private cars and
vans (which have capitalized on the strike by charging fares), and
tourism buses,'' he said. ``We just have to have patience.''

Scumbag ESPN will only have 90 mins. of tape delayed Brazil GP action 
this sunday (4 pm EST). Gotta get the golf game in.

>Scumbag ESPN will only have 90 mins. of tape delayed Brazil GP action 
>this sunday (4 pm EST). Gotta get the golf game in.

Wanna help fix it? Call 'em and complain. All they know is that 
if they drop a golf game or leave out one college from the 
basketball they get calls. Excvept maybe for NASCAR lovers, race 
fans are so passive about it, collectively we harldy ever bother 
... and that just let's 'em keep on doing it.

--Lillian

    Anybody have a number for ESPN?  I am disappointed to hear that it will
    only be "highlight" coverage.  I am also ripped at the Boston Globe at
    the moment.  They have no coverage of F1 today.  I had hoped to see the
    grid positions, but not a peep about F1.  I will be sending them a
    letter.
    
    Jeff

Spoiler ahead:




Another flag-to-flag show for Senna. According to ESPN, that gives 
him 16 career flag-to-flag victories. More than my hero Jimmy 
Clark. Sigh.

On the whole, it was a *BORING* race, with bad TV coverage. Sigh.

The high point, for me anyway, was Nigel's wonderful angry drive to 
recover from those terrible pit stops. (Complete with stupid ending 
when he apparently broke the gearbox from rightfooting it in pure 
frustration after spinning -- at any rate that was the speculation 
-- but at least it was fun while it lasted and the tire smoke was 
great. To be fair, it looked from his pit stops like the gearbox 
was not healthy anyway. And I admit, I've had the same urge after 
spinning myself.) Sigh.

I wish they'd show more action further down the pack, at least 
there's some racing going on back there. Sigh.

Senna's a great driver, but so far this year F1 has been a yawn, 
and it's *ALL HIS FAULT* !!!   ;)

Heavy sigh. 

--Lillian

    
    Spoiler in case you haven't see it.
    
    Re .81
    
    I think Mansell's spin was due to his gearbox sticking in 1st rather
    than him breaking the gearbox AFTER spinning. Very much like Patrese's
    demise in Phoenix, but watch both the Williams in future races, either
    could knock Senna off the number 1 spot in the next race or two.
    
    Mark

    Race order for those who missed it...
    
    1.Senna (who else ?)	
    2.Patrese  some 2 seconds behind
    3.Berger (the car is too small for this guy)	
    4.Prost (he made so many pit-stops,one was 5.9 seconds!	
    5.Piquet ( Im happy that he finished in the points at home)
    6.Alesi  (what happened to his aggresiveness?)	
    7.Moreno (Benneton almost gets into the points,but was lapped by Senna
    8.Morbidelli (the old Ferrari engine 3 laps behind)
    9.Hakkinen (Lotus -3 laps)
    10.Boutsen ( Liger-Lamborghini -3 laps)
    11.Pirro (Dalara Judd - 3 laps)
    12.Brundel ( Brabham Yamaha - 4 laps)
    13.Gachot ( Jordan Ford - 8 laps! )
    14.Mansell ( drove one hell of a race only to be let down by that
    lousy semi automatic that he despises(sp?)
    ETC........
    
          Drivers Standings
    
    SENNA    20 PTS
    PROST     9	
    PATRESE   6
    PIQUET    6
    BERGER    4
    MODENA    4
    NAKAJIMA  3
    SUZUKI    1
    ALESI     1
    
                CONSTRUCTORS
    
    McLAREN   24 PTS
    FERRARI   10
    WILLIAMS   6
    BENNETON   6
    TYRELL     5
    LARROUSSE  1
    
    11.

    RE: 79
    
    Considering the options other than ESPN (CBS, ABC or nothing), you
    shouldn't complain. At least we got something.  Relative to coverage 
    racing thru other parts of the pack, I believe we saw more shots of
    other "battles" than ever.  You have to remember, too, that we were
    watching feed from Brazlian television. ESPN had no say in what we saw
    or when
    
    RE: 80
    
    While the Globe didn't run an article, they DID have the grid listed.
    Back in the last page of the sports section in there with all the small
    print, by category.  Look under the heading "Auto Racing" -- they
    listed F1 and two NASCAR grids.

    I was impressed by the camera placement at Interlagos - some very nice
    positons and pictures.  Where F1 coverage falls down is in the
    direction - they need a director who knows racing and which images
    should appear on the screen.  It's about time the FIA established its
    own tv team to enhance the international feed.  The boys from ESPN do a
    pretty good job with what they have.
    
    I think Senna is proving (again; still) that he is the best there is. 
    I don't believe that the Mclaren is much better than the other front
    runners.  Senna controlled the race from flag to flag.  Yes, he was a
    little lucky to survive at the end, but the great racers make their
    luck.  Senna made his by pulling out the lead and holding, no,
    controlling it.  An impressive run.  I see him winning 8 races this
    year and the championship.
    
    Paul
    

I thought the TV feed was interesting. I got to play the game...

	Name that Brazillian

There was almost always a Brazillian somewhere in the picture. Your
job was to figure out where and who it was. There seems to be a
similar game in many of the countries hosting F1.

We are of course imune here in the U.S. only as long as Michael
Andretti holds off. Then watch out. I'm sure our directors can play
the same game. Of course with only one American in the race the game 
will be simple and quite a bit more boring.

I stuck this in the UK Cars conf, but for those of you who don't read that:

Senna broke the 400 point barrier, only Lauda, Piquet and Prost have more.

When Senna won his first race, Prost had 17 victories.  Now, Senna has 28 and
Prost as 44.  Still a 16 race difference....

The first 4 drivers to win the first 2 races of the year went on to become
Champion that year.  The second 4 drivers to win the first two races of the
season didn't win the Championship that year.  This is the 9th year this has
happened, will Senna start the 4 year cycle over or continue the losing
tradition??

Dave

Ayrton Senna, in an interview on ESPN's Speedweek, says that he'd like to 
move to the US and race Ammurican style when his F1 days are over.  He said 
he might do CART or NASCAR (!) "just for fun" and enjoy himself on the racetrack.
Apparently Emerson Fittipaldi has been bending his ear about the lower pressure
and generally lighter atmosphere in US racing as opposed to FISA-land, and 
Ayrton is becoming interested.  I think Emmo also said that Senna and Alain
Prost (hopefully not in the same plane) plan on attending this year's Indy 500.
There is a two-week layoff in the F1 schedule which coincides with the second
weekend of time trials and the race.

Ayrton is apparently dating some top US model (this is per Bob "Liz Smith" 
Varsha) which may encourage him to spend more time here.

    yes, this was discussed in the Internet REC.AUTOS.SPORT newsgroup
    recently.  I believe the report there was that Emmo commented that
    Prost was also interested in doing CART.  Maybe CART can counter JMB's
    FISA sanctions by getting the Prost:Senna duels into the Indy car
    series, wouldn't that be something? :-)	:-)

The nice thing about these live race broadcasts from Europe is that you can get
up, watch most of the contenders take themselves out in the first ten laps,
go down to the deli, pick up some bagels, come home, thumb through the Sunday
Times, turn the race back on, and watch Mr. Senna notch another one.  Swell.

All kidding aside, isn't it good to see Patrese making such a mess of the Grand
Williams Plan?  Obviously, Mr. $10 Million Nigel can't get the hang of an
automatic transmission at Wlliams any more than he could at Ferrari.  Patrese
seems to manage the gearbox quite well, and he doesn't even get his choice of 
cars!  With some reliability, Patrese could give Senna a run for his money at 
some tracks.  If Senna doesn't win 16 this year, I'll wager Patrese gets one or
two in.

And how 'bout those Ferraris, eh?

    
    Re .90
    
    What Ferraris? :^)
    
    Prost (The thinking man's driver) spins off on the warm up lap! :^)
    Alesi (With the Tifosi's hopes on his shoulders) overcooks it on lap 2! 
    
    I reckon Naninni would have been a better bet for Ferrari, even with
    only 1 good arm!
    
    Mark

Re: .91

The expressions and gestures of the crowd as Alesi bumbled to a stop were a 
hoot.  I'll bet he's on the Tifosi's Class A S**t-list from now on.

    
    Re .92
    
    Not to mention the things they threw at him.
    
    Still at least he threw it away in anger. What WAS Prost doing?
    
    Mark

    I loved listening to David Hobbs and his suggestions about the acrimony
    at Ferrari and the Monday morning meeting.
    
    To paraphrase David who was speculating on what the team management
    would be saying:
    
    "Well Al, we understand there are some problems with the team, but
    don't you think we could do better if you at least took the start!"
    
    Seriously, though, I used to be Alain Prost's biggest fan, but his
    constant whining is getting boring.
    
    Another interesting note on the race was Ricardo Patrese in the
    Williams.  He seems quite competitive with Senna.  I was really hoping
    he could keep it going so that we could have had some racing.  As it
    was I got  up at 5:55am Mountain Time to watch the race -- can't sleep
    even though I know the race is being recorded -- but I went back to bed
    about the halfway point.  Even though I am a McLaren fan, it is not
    much fun watching them beat up on the backmarkers.
    
    In the search for excellence in F1 racing, McLaren has found it,
    Williams is getting close, but the rest of the teams seem to be lost.
    
    Bob J.

Re: .93

Interesting about Prost.  The ESPN commentators were speculating that Prost may
have abandoned the car in order to force a delayed start and allow the Modena
gang time to refine the setup on the T-car.  By the time he got back to the
pits the second chassis would be set up for the conditions and he (Prost) would
be back in contention.  Seems a bit too complex for me, even considering the
dark machinations of Ferrari and le Professeur.  Hope le Prof. has le ironclad
contract, because the Italian press is firing up the Scapegoat Machine.

If you want to get really paranoid, you can speculate on the possibility that
Fiorio planned the whole thing to humiliate le Prof. in front of the home crowd
in order to deflect the criticism he (Fiorio) is getting.  How Ceasare could 
schedule rain is beyond me, however.  :-)

    Could someone post the results here?  I have scanned this file and
    CARS_UK only to find out Senna won, there were some Finns who did well,
    and the Loti both finished in the top six.  As usual, the local papers
    have not more than "Senna wins..."  I watched about the first ten laps,
    saw lots of drivers retire, and called it quits myself.  I walked away
    shaking my head about what Mr. Prost must have been thinking about.  I
    give him the benefit of the doubt using the word thinking.  
    
    Jeff

	What was the reason for Patrese's Long pit stop?

    
    	re: .95
    
    	Imola results:
    
    	1   Senna      ( McLaren Honda )
        2   Berger     ( McLaren Honda )
        3   Letho      ( dallara BMS )
    	4   Martini    ( Minardi Ferrari )
    	5   Hakkinen   ( Lotus Judd )
    	6   Bailey     ( Lotus Judd )
    	7   Boutsen    ( Ligier )
    
    	Re: .97
    
    	Patrese had an Elettric problem since the 7th lap. He went to the
    	Box and the Engine stopped. He started again the race after a few
    	laps only to verify which was the origin of the problem.
    
    	Cheers,
    				Alex

    My wife had a good idea.  Just automatically give the win to Ayrton and
    let everyone else race for second.  Would be a lot more exciting
    without him a half lap ahead or punting competitor's off the track. 
    BTW, did any notice the bump between Alesi and Mansell at the start? 
    Did that cause Mansell's tire to go bad, I wonder?
    
    My wife was surprised at that I had no interest in shelling out the
    usual $800 to go to Montreal for the Canadian GP.  Hell, I can wait a
    month and see the 4th of July parade for free.  I think I will tape
    "Saturday Night Thurder" the night before so we'll have something
    exciting to watch during GPs.  In the 30 years I have been following
    Formula 1 it has never been so boring. 
    
    BTW: Ever notice how, from above, Formula 1 cars look like lawn mowers?
    
    Gary (obviously in a cranky mood)

 All the teams are fielding new cars and engines... New drivers are showing
their mettle early .. established teams are having problems with car development..
The top team does not have the fastest car on the track...

Having one driver who excels and a team that excels is not new at all.

Fangio with Mercedes
Clark with Lotus
stewart with Tyrell
Lauda with Mclaren
Brabham with Cooper

 Luckily F1 has not resorted to artificial manipulation during the race to 
"make good TV"

Well my heart  pounds each time the lights go red!


		

    
    When did Lauda dominate with McLaren the way Senna is?
    
    Mark

 I can remember Muddy Talker droning about it...But I cant remember the date...
Even if I've got my wires crossed on Lauda the point I'm making still holds.....

    
    Re .102
    
    True, I was just nit-picking.
    
    What about Bob Light in a Noble? :^)
    
    Mark

7 years continuous 1 manufacturer... 3 years for one driver...

    IMO,
    
    Except for Fangio, I wouldn't put any of the others in Senna's class. 
    In a few more years I might remove even remove Fangio. 
    
    But, Fangio (before my time) had "charisma".  Moss, Andretti, et al,
    had/have charisma.  Ferarri, Mercedes and arguably Lotus have/had
    chrisma.  Senna/McLaren/Honda just don't.  Senna is not generally
    liked.  Honda has bought its success.  McLaren just provides the rest;
    good but so are some others.  Now, if Mario/Lotus/Cosworth was doing
    what S/McL/H were doing I would be just tickled.  Capricious, heh?
    
    Gary 

    Powerful drugs affect can people in different ways.
    
    the two drugs are power ( not Hp or Kw ) and Adrenalin.
    
    Some drivers just cant stop talking after a fix and are cheery and
   afable then, even if it isnt their nature. Others become taciturn 
    or morose.
    
    
    Some Managers hooked on Power become secretive and poker faced other
    become outgoing and smile a lot.
    
    Mclaren main problems are P.R. Senna folds inward after a race and 
    Ron Dennis is poker faced all the time. Most of Senna's photo's are
    just before ( Every driver looks serious then!) and just after. I
    saw just one photo of him smiling. He looked really human!
    
    Fangio "Had Charisma" ? still does ! 
     

.100>	Fangio with Mercedes
.100>	Clark with Lotus
.100>	stewart with Tyrell
.100>	Lauda with Mclaren
.100>	Brabham with Cooper
    
.105>    Except for Fangio, I wouldn't put any of the others in Senna's class. 
.105>    In a few more years I might remove even remove Fangio. 
    
    I don't know, how do you measure "Senna's class"?  (I had to use the
    adjectivial modifier, the word "class" without that modifier would have
    a whole different meaning - although the interplay of those two
    meanings may be very relevant to this thread!)
    
.105>    But, Fangio (before my time) had "charisma".  
    
    or, put another way, he had "class".	:-)
    
    He also drove well before my time, so I cannot speak from experience. 
    But in general I would agree that the list of dominant drivers
    (possible exception of Brabham, my knowledge of his driving is too
    limited to allow me to decide) consists of those who were clearly
    without peer at the time they competed.  Either Prost or Senna would
    clearly deserve inclusion as the best of their time if it were not for
    the other, they both have performed at a level unapproached by their
    other contemporaries over the past several years.  This year Senna is
    making a strong argument for his superiority, but I am still
    unconvinced that it is the driver and not the car.
    
    And that's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned.  I cannot see
    divorcing the driver and car, and on that basis only a few drivers have
    been truly superlative in more than one single marque:
    	Stewart (March and Tyrell)
    	Lauda (Ferrari and McLaren)
        Prost (McLaren and Ferrari) (?)
    
    Incidentally, the point about "charisma" is a good one.  Consider,
    there might be one other current driver who could legitimately be
    argued to be a peer of Senna and Prost, he has won the World
    Championship, made the podium frequently, and consistently been
    competitive over quite a few seasons in several different marques.  
    So why doesn't he have the same stature as Senna and Prost?  Purely a
    function of image...

When you talk about the winner's circle, I'd have to agree that 
F1 has been plain boring this year. There are some interesting 
things going on back in the pack, but worldwide television has 
not learned how to make that show up well in race coverage, so we 
seem to miss a lot of the fun back there watching the tube, and 
that makes the broadcasts more boring than they need to be.

As for great drivers, there have been many: Fangio, Clark, 
Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Prost ... and ... gulp (I hate to say it) 
Senna, although I'm also not convinced that the dominance doesn't 
result more from car than driver. None of those first six (except 
maybe Fangio with Mercedes) ever dominated the way Senna has. I 
refuse to believe that Senna is that much better than 40 years 
worth of great driving talent.

Warning: emotional outburst to follow, totally indefensible, 
probably libelous, and certainly lacking in logic.  



Now, I truly dislike Senna -- from afar obviously, let's just say 
as a public figure, I dislike him. IMO, he's whiny, morose, blames 
others for his troubles, makes too many excuses (especially given 
the advantages he's enjoyed), often drives in a selfishly 
dangerous manner, and generally projects a truly sickening image 
of being generous to no one but himself. The man seems to have NO 
class at all. Again, IMO, two Senna championships come with 
asterisks, one for having been outscored in points and winning the 
title only on a technicality and the other for purposely booting 
his competition off the road to avoid having to race him for the 
championship.

Emotional outburst complete.



So many of the other greats showed real class and gave us memorable 
seasons, full of inspiring competition. For one, remember the 
season of Piquet's championship for Brabham/BMW? The dices with 
Prost in the Renault lasted nearly the whole season, and were 
exciting to the finish. It was always a question who'd come out on 
top, and some of the races were actually won by other drivers and 
cars. What a concept, a competitive field ... it's been a long time 
since we saw that.

Mclaren/Honda = boredom, bought and paid for, no matter who's 
driving.

--Lil

     EVERYONE IS TALKING ABOUT SENNA AND PROST. SURE THOSE BOYS ARE GREAT	
    BUT EVERYONE SHOULD AGREE THAT IF GILLES VILLENEUVE WERE STILL ARROUND
    F1 WOULD BE ALL THE MORE EXCITING. PERSONALLY I THINK HE WOULD STILL	
    BE WITH FERRARI, AND SENNA WOULD NOT BE ENJOYONG THE SAME SUCCESS.
    ( OK,I MAY BE WRONG WITH THAT LAST CRACK, BUT NO ONE DROVE LIKE GILE	
    NOT EVEN SENNA, AND PERSONALLY I DONT THINK ANYONE EVER WILL!)
    
                                            MERCI GILLES !
    

>    BUT EVERYONE SHOULD AGREE THAT IF GILLES VILLENEUVE WERE STILL ARROUND
>    F1 WOULD BE ALL THE MORE EXCITING. 

Another great one for sure, and truly *exciting* to watch even in 
a vacuum cleaner -- would have been extraordinary in a 
flat-bottom car ...    

    I'm not a Senna fan either but he seemed to me that when Senna and
    Prost were on the same team, Senna was clearly the fastest.
    
    jeff
    

    And if the car were all, then why does not Berger always come in
    second.  After all, he is an above average driver.
    
    Also, a few years ago Senna gave Lotus its last victories in a clearly
    inferior car.
    
    I think Senna is a great driver, maybe one of the best of all time.  He
    may not be the most personable of people, but then maybe we don't
    really know him.  Forming opinions based on press releases and TV
    coverage can be dangerous.
    
    Bob J. -- Who will be cheering for Ayrton to make it 4 in a row at
    Monaco.

    I'd like to add a bit to the last note, Bob.  I agree.  Something that
    comes to mind is baseball.  Yes, I know.  It's a "ball" sport, my god! 
    Look at the great Ty Cobb.  More than 4,000 hits, the highest lifetime
    BA, etc.  But easily one of the most beligerent, anstiest guys that
    ever lived.  His teamates disliked him.  But no one can take away his
    greatness.  Senna, believe it or not, is not nearly so beligerent.  And
    he is great.
    
    In the end, few will remember his personality.  They WILL remember his
    dominance and stats.
    
    Paul
     

    A little nit-pick..sorry :-)
    re 790.112.	
    " and if the car were all, then why does not Berger always come in
    second. After all, he is an above average driver."
    
       Team Mcleren are favouring Senna to the extreem, this year, he is
    driving the new car, Berger the old one (last years engine). Senna gets
    all the top mechanics, not that Berger has any slouches as mechanics,	
    but I am sure that Senna's men are more experienced.Also Berger is	
    one of the tallest men in F1 and the cockpit of the McLaren is small
    for him hampering his driving. Berger is driving with added pressure
    of being Senna's team mate and Michael Andretti waiting to get into F1.
    All things considered I think he is doing an excellent job this year
    and once he gets the new engine and he will be on par with Senna, he
    will win a fiew races. This spells bad news for us Tifosi (spelling).
         I will agree however that Senna is an excellent driver, maturing
    with age, however I will continue to dislike him until he behind the
    wheel of a Ferrari.(1992 ?) but to say he is the all time greatest...
    ....I think it's still a bit too soon to tell.
    

    .re:
    >   Team Mcleren are favouring Senna to the extreem, this year, he is
    >driving the new car, Berger the old one (last years engine). Senna gets
    
    I think both McLaren drivers are using the new V12 Honda.  At Brazil (I
    think) they said that Senna had a "new" version of the engine that had
    more torque.  In any case, he (Berger), is a very good driver and I
    believe, judging from the reports on the cockpit modifications, that
    McLaren is doing everything in its power to make the machine top of the
    line for him.  I still doubt very much if we will see him outrun his
    team mate.
    
    One true measure of greatness is to do something no one else has ever
    done.  In this case Ayrton could really go down in the history books if
    he won every GP this year!  Hows that for dreaming!
    
    Bob J.
    

 �   One true measure of greatness is to do something no one else has ever
 �   done.  In this case Ayrton could really go down in the history books if
 �   he won every GP this year!  Hows that for dreaming!
  
    One man's dream is another man's nightmare! :^)
    
    Mark  
    

>> One true measure of greatness is to do something no one else has ever
>> done.
  
He is approaching having the pole 50% of his F1 starts. Like him or 
not, you have to admit that's pretty impressive!

    HE MAY GET 50% OF THE POLES, BUT FOR THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS HE HAS
    ENJOYED A COUPLE OF EXTRA HORSES UNDER HIS HOOD, COMPARED TO THE REST
    OF THE FIELD.

>                         -< IT'S ALL IN THE HORSES ? >-

I agree. Honda is the premier motor of the era. Cripes, they're 
spending $50 million a year or something like that? The other 
Japanese car makers don't want to get involved because they know 
they'd have to spend equal amounts to be competitive. Among F1 
teams, McLaren has the first-line Honda supply.

Put Senna in a car with equal horsepower and you'll really hear 
some whining. He might still win poles, but the races themselves 
could be another story.

--Lil

    
      IT'S THAT TIME OF THE YEAR AGAIN FOLKS...MONACO....F1 MOST
    PRESTIGIOUS RACE !
    
    
    Here are the 1st results of Thursdays first qualifying session and	
    guess who was fastest....
    
    1. Senna       (McLaren-Honda)	  1:20.508
    2. Berger      (McLaren-Honda)        1:21.222  
    3. Patrese     (Williams-Renault)     1:22.057 
    4. Prost       (Ferrari)              1:22.113
    5. Piquet      (Benetton-Ford)        1:22.816
    6. Alesi       (Ferrari)              1:22.966
    7. Jarvi       (Dallara-Judd)         1:23.023
    8. Mansell     (Williams-Renault)     1:23.274
    9. Pirro       (Dallara-Judd)         1:23.311
   10. Modena      (Tyrell-Honda)         1:23.442
   11. Moreno      (Benetton-Ford)        1:23.476
   12. Martini     (Minardi-Ferrari)      1:24.101	
   13. De Cesaris  (Jordan_Ford)          1:24.257
   14. Nakajima    (Tyrell-Honda)         1:24.435
   15. Morbidelli  (Minardi-Ferrari)      1:24.481
   16. Gachot      (Jordan-Ford)          1:24.540
   17. Boutsen     (Ligier-Lamborghini)   1:24.728
   18. Comas       (Ligier-Lamborghini)   1:24.747
   19. Hakkinen    (Lotus-Judd)           1:24.868 
   20. Gugelmin    (Leyton-Ilmor)         1:24.920
   21. Capelli     (Leyton-Ilmor)         1:25.040	
   22. Tarquini    (Ags-Ford)             1:25.070
    
    
    
    

    
    
    	What a boring race !
    
    	Yesterday we saw another race without emotion. Senna is always
    	the same, the faster and the best driver and none can fight
    	with him.
    	Only Nigel Mansell has made a beautifull over-taking to Prost
        and gave us a shiver with his great catching up. Modena and
    	Patrese were doing a good race but they went out at the same 
    	time even if they never fighted.
    	"My" great Nelson went out during the first lap (!?) after a
    	crash with Berger ( I didn't see it but this is the Official
    	version released by Piquet).
    	As last: What about Alain Prost ? Nobody here could understand
    	why Alain is driving so slowly and why he decided to change the
    	tyres when only three laps were left.
        I don't know what's in Prost's mind, but I think that if Ferrari
    	is going so bad Alain is one of the guilty ( Ferrari was deve-
    	loping his car on his indications ).
    
    	An advice: do like me.... watch "moto world racing" !
    
    						Alex
          

    During yesterday's pathetic coverage of the Monaco non-race there was
    one interesting bit on the cost of F1:
    To enter a team:			$10 million
    To contend for points:		$30 million
    To contend for wins:		$50 million
    To contend for the championship:	$100 million
    
    Anyone out there in Marketing or Finance who might comment on how Fiat
    or Renault or Ford can (or want!) to spend that kind of money to be
    publicly humiliated?  Imagine the inroads they might make in the "new"
    eastern European market with that sort of money.
    
    F1 has become an exhibition rather than a series of races.  ("Race" = a
    competition for 1st place.)
                                                                       

Re: .121

Alex, do like us . . . watch Indianapolis!

Re: .122

Those figures are annual, so to contend for the championship over the commonly
accepted three-year learning curve costs $300 million.  Assume you win in your
third year: to repeat costs $400 over four years.  Even today, that is a LOT
of money.

    RACE ORDER FOR THOSE WHO MISSED IT....
    
    1.SENNA	
    2.MANSELL  18 SECONDS BEHIND	
    3.ALESI    47 SECONDS "    "
    4.MORENO   1 LAP DOWN
    5.PROST    1 LAP
    6.PIRRO    SHOULD BE BANNED FROM F1. DID ANYONE SEE HIS PATHETIC
               DRIVING? HE SINGLE HANDEDLY TOOK AWAY AN EXCITING RACE
               SENNA WAS LEADING MODENA BY ABOUT 8 SECONDS UNTIL
               MODENA CAME UP TO PASS PIRRO.PIRRO WAS TOO INTENT ON
               RACING WITH MARTINI, NEVER CHECKED HIS REARVIEW AND
               IGNORED ALL THE BLUE FLAGS WAVED IN HIS FACE. THE END
               RESULT WAS ANOTHER EASY WIN FOR SENNA. I BELIEVE IF
               MODENA HAD GOTTEN BY PIRRO, THE RACE COULD HAVE BEEN A
               LITTLE MORE EXCITING.  
    7.BOUTSEN  2 LAPS BEHIND
    8.GACHOT   2 "         "
    9.BERNARD  2 "         "
    10.COMAS   2 "
      
    
    
    
    
    
    

    And Martini got the 10 second stop and go penalty.
    
    Mark

    Re. 790.124
    
    Hi.
    I would like to give my opinion about modena-pirro problem:
    
    >           PIRRO WAS TOO INTENT ON
    >           RACING WITH MARTINI, NEVER CHECKED HIS REARVIEW AND
    >           IGNORED ALL THE BLUE FLAGS WAVED IN HIS FACE. 
     
    I agree with you Pirro is not a top driver but I think other drivers
    are more pathetic than Pirro.
    
    (have you seen that taxi driver - I think Prost is the name - ?
    he was not able to keep Mansell behind his car although Ferrari was
    not much slower than williams. Do you remember Villeneuve in Spain
    or Monaco when he kept behind his car a lot of faster cars for the whole 
    race ?)  
    
    I think you did not notice that two laps before modena was behind
    pirro, Nakajima (with the other Tyrrell) was racing behind pirro.
    Pirro saw the blue flags but he did not realize the tyrrell behind 
    was owned by Modena (At Monaco you cannot spend so much time looking
    at the mirrors). I think they should have advised Pirro from his boxes.  
    
	I am dying to see Modena striking back next race.
    
    Mauro.
                                          

    
    
     I think this may be a good time to start asking ourselves what is
    wrong with the Scarlet cars. After 25% of this season's races we have
    seen nothing but problems. The results achieved in Monaco are due
    mainly to Patrese, Piquet and Modena bowing out of their positions,
    otherwise I feel Ferrari would have finished out of the points.
    
    
      What is wrong with Ferrari ? Is it the drivers ? The chassis ?  
       The engine ? The whole team ?
    
      Personally, I felt they had two of the best drivers in the world
    competing for the championship. A perfect balance of a tactical and
    experienced driver in Prost and a brash daring (Senna like) driver 
    in Alessi. Both men are from France thus allowing for excellent
    communication ?
      I dont know much about the new engine or chassis, but I thought
    they were really supposed to give those McLarens a run for the money.	
     What's wrong? 
    
      
    
    
    

    Anyone have a clue as to what happened to Mr. Berger?  Believe it was
    an accident of some sort, but further details are not readily
    available.
    
    Thanks for the info,
    
    Barb
    

    
    
    re: .128
    
    	Gerard, during the first lap, had a "crash" with Nelson Piquet.
    	He went into the box and, after two laps, he started again the
    	race but he went out at the "piscine" while he was taking off
    	his helmet's visor (he lost the control of his car).
    
    	That's what italian Tv said.
    
    	Ciao
    					Alessandro

.124>  HE SINGLE HANDEDLY TOOK AWAY AN EXCITING RACE
.124>  SENNA WAS LEADING MODENA BY ABOUT 8 SECONDS UNTIL
.124>  MODENA CAME UP TO PASS PIRRO.PIRRO WAS TOO INTENT ON
.124>  RACING WITH MARTINI, NEVER CHECKED HIS REARVIEW AND
.124>  IGNORED ALL THE BLUE FLAGS WAVED IN HIS FACE. THE END
.124>  RESULT WAS ANOTHER EASY WIN FOR SENNA. I BELIEVE IF
.124>  MODENA HAD GOTTEN BY PIRRO, THE RACE COULD HAVE BEEN A
.124>  LITTLE MORE EXCITING.  
    
    I dunno.  Eight seconds is not a close interval, and Modena expired 
    rather soon after.  In fact, given the manner of the Tyrrell's Honda
    failure with Patrese close behind, it could be argued that the
    excitement would've been less if Pirro had not held up Modena and all
    allowed Patrese to close.  So Senna's gain was (initially) Modena's
    loss of margin over Patrese, and then Patrese's bad luck when Modena
    oiled the tunnel in front of him.
    
    Right now I think the only thing that would increase the excitement
    would be a blind draw to see who gets to drive the McLaren's each
    weekend.  Or a claiming rule. 
    
    At least Indy's competitive!

.122>    During yesterday's pathetic coverage of the Monaco non-race there was
.122>    one interesting bit on the cost of F1:
.122>    To enter a team:			$10 million
.122>    To contend for points:			$30 million
.122>    To contend for wins:			$50 million
.122>    To contend for the championship:	$100 million
    
    Incidentally, did anyone else catch the offhand comment somewhere
    during the telecast to the effect that Honda might be spending an
    additional $200 million or so, in addition to the team budget?  It was
    in context with an observation that they've spent something on the
    order of $1 billion on the entire program since they started.
    
    Since engines are an essential part of the package, I'd guess that the
    total should show an additional line:
    	To dominate the series (ala McLaren/Honda):	$300 million
    

    
    	After the bad performance of Ferrari in the first four races,
    	Ferrari's staff decided to dismiss Cesare Fiorio. They hired 
    	Marco Piccinini ( again ), Piero Lardi Ferrari and Lombardi
    	( I don't remeber the name. He worked in USA on ALFA-INDY 
    	project and now he is working in LANCIA in World Rally 
    	championship). 
    
    	No comment.  
    
    						Alex

Rumor: Ferrari bringing Niki Lauda in to manage the F1 effort ... ?

    re: 132 
    The name you couldn't remember is Claudio Lombardi. In the new troika
    he is to manage the technical end -- and what becomes of Piegiorgio
    Castelli?  Lombardi and Fiorio worked together at Abarth some years
    back -- Lombardi was tech director.  Lombardi replaced Fiorio at Lancia
    when Cesare went to Ferrari.  Lombardi has been credited with the
    design of the Alfa Indy engine (wrongly, I think) and has been
    identified as tech director of the Alfa racing effort.  He brings a
    strong tech background -- he was thought to be the wrong man to follow
    Fiorio at Lancia because Lombardi is said to be non-political, but a
    good engineer -- especially good at engines.
    
    Seemingly a good man.  At the wrong place at the wrong time.  Piccinini
    should be OK at "making nice" with the drivers. He always got pretty
    good marks for the PR end of race management.  And Piero Lardi
    Ferrari... Enzo's son out of wedlock.  He'll need to be all of his
    father and more to effect a fast turnaround.  
    
    Don (who thinks the drivers are not the only interesting persons in F1)   

    
    
    	Last Sathurday Alex Caffi ( Footwork - Porsche ) had a road crash.
    	( unfortunately He was not driving ! )
    
    	He had a cheekbone fracture. That's why he will not run in
    	Canada Gp.
    
    	Best wishes Caffi !
    
    					Alex

      I know this should probably, not be placed here, but I have an extra
    ticket for the Montreal GP. It's a three day ticket in the silver
    seats. It is in section 11,in my opinion the best seat in the house.
    From section 11 you see the start/finish and the first turn as well as
    the first straight away.
                        sec 11
                         / ____________________
                        /____   
                         _ _|
                        /                     sorry about the lousy track
                        |                     layout, but you get the
                        |                     drift.
                        |
                        | start finish
                        |
    
      I only have the one extra ticket and anyone is more than welcome to
    come with me and my 4 cousins, we have reservations at the Hotel des
    Gouverneurs for Fri & Sat night. Hotel will cost about $80.00 for the
    two nights and I am willing to sell the ticket for $150.00 it cost me 
    $180.00 and sells today for $220.00 (i bought it in Feb that's why it
    was cheaper). 
       We are not a bunch of wild and crazy nuts,except for when we get to
    the track. We range in age from 21 to 30 all are GP fans, for more info
    call DTN-640-7144 between 08:00 and 16:30 today or tommorow price is 
    negotiable.
                 

    I saw on the news last night that it was one of Niki Lauda's planes
    that crashed last weekend killing almost 300 people.  What a tragedy. 
    There were rumors (how good?) that Lauda was being touted as the new
    Ferrari F1 manager.  I wonder if this incident affects that?
    
    Paul
    

    Newpaper report that I read last night said that they are suspicious
    about it being a bomb.  The report stated that LaudaAir was the target
    of an extortion attempt last year (?) by an employee who threatened to
    put a bomb on one of their planes.  He reportedly was fired, but was
    later hired by the Thai airline!  Great security move there...

    more, from      <<< MEIS::NOTES$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FLYING.NOTE;4 >>>
                             -< General Aviation >-
================================================================================
Note 3691.0          Lauda Air Boeing 767 crash near Bankog            5 replies
VNASWS::ERIK "Erik A.Rosdol, ACT-IT Vienna, Austria" 21 lines  27-MAY-1991 04:43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Lauda Air Boeing 767 crashed tonight near Bankog.  Reports say, that
the plane exploded high up in the air. Niki Lauda, the former Austrian
Formula One racing world champion, who owns Lauda Air, commented this morning,
that there were 240 people on board, possibly all of them have been killed.
After taking off from Bankog on a flight to Vienna, the pilot reported
no problems at all on the company frequency, but 25 minutes later the plane
exploded in the skyes. Later this morning, there was a report, that
there was a telephone call from an unnamed person, reportedly from Germany,
who told the operator at the switchboard at Vienna international airport, that the
bomb was aimed  at  an american flight, preparing to leave Bankog later
this morning, and the luggage containing it, was mistakenly loaded onto
the Lauda Air Boeing 767. This however is unconfirmed, the switchboard
operator is currently interviewed by local investigators.

The debris of the plane came down in an area about 30miles out of any
road, the blackbox has not been found yet. About 120 bodies have been found so far


Erik
    

    
        Well it took a couple of months and 5 races, but we finally have
    the tiniest sparks of a good season. The Montreal GP was the most
    exciting race I have seen this year atleast for the first 30 laps and
    then at the end.We saw for the first time that even McLaren can have
    problems leaving an oportunity for other teams to show their stuff. I
    was very impressed with the Jordan team, even more impressed that
    Andrea De Cesaris finished a race without hitting something ;*)
         Ferrari has to trash that semi-automatic gear box before it drives
    their fans completely bonkers.Prost and Alesi were running very well at
    the start, it seemed to me that Senna was actually holding Prost back
    at some points....and then the usual happened, prost slows down Senna
    pulls away.Luckily Senna went out a lap before so we can say for one
    race "ferrari is more reliable" (dream on). 
         Anyway, it took me 5 years too finaly see a good race in Montreal
    and it was worth the wait.Too bad for Nigel he deserved the win.

    
    
    	Hi All !
    
    	The great ( and lucky !) Nelson Piquet gave me another
    	satisfaction. He won Canadian G.p. driving very well a good
    	Benetton: next year, with new Ford 12 cylinders, he will be
    	able to fight for the World Championship.
    
    	Nigel Mansell drove very well his Williams-Renault but I think
    	he exaggerated in the last lap. I don't understand why
    	he drove so fast when he was 50 second ahead Piquet. Nigel
    	is in Formula 1 since 10 years but it looks like that he don't
    	understand that win a race with few or more second is the same
    	thing. Senna showed us very well this thing: he took
    	a lot of advantage and, in the last part of the race, he drove very
    	slow and loose his advantage but he win the race !
    	Anyway, Williams-Renault is a very good car and I think that
    	Nigel and Riccardo will win lots of the next races.
    
    	Ferrari showed us that, with or without Cesare Fiorio, the problems
    	are always the same. Alesi drove very well in the first part of
    	the race while Prost didn't. Alain seemed faster than Senna but
    	he never tried to pass him.
    
    	At last: McLaren went out because of electric problems, but I think
    	that Senna will win the 1991 world championship if Williams-Renault
    	will not solved their tecnical problems.....
    	
    	Cheers,
    
    				Alex
                 

    All you F1 buff reading this note. There is a good and much active F1
    note on MARVIN::CARS_UK.
    
    Best of luck.
    
    Barry.

Yes! Finally, a race! 

Nigel derserved to win, and I beleive it was said that he did not 
run out of gas, but had a mechanical problem, so slowing down 
wouldn't have done much good -- no gears left (not one!) was the 
final word, wasn't it? 

But anyway, I'll take a victory for Nelson any day. Jordan was 
impressive, Benetton was impressive (again), Williams was *very* 
impressive. And Senna didn't whine ... could this be the start of 
a really enjoyable F1 season?????

--Lil

.143>  [...]gas, but had a mechanical problem, so slowing down 
.143>  wouldn't have done much good -- no gears left (not one!) was the 
.143>  final word, wasn't it? 
    
    
    hmm, slowing down wouldn't've reduced the stress on the gears by any
    chance would it?  maybe enough so that the last one might've lived?
    
    guess we'll never know, will we, just as we'll never know if that
    "final word" was truth or merely ego protection for a highly paid
    number one?
    
    For my money Nigel is the most erratic top-rank driver in F1 for many
    years.  When he's on he's great, but he seems to endure many more
    bonehead moments than his peers. Just MHO.

    With Montreal now behind us, Mexico is the next race on the calendar. 
    This is a high altitude track.  Do any of you folks know how that
    favors engine configurations?  Does a V-12 have an advantage over a
    V-10 over a V-8?  Or is it the other way around?  Will the Williams
    have more or less of an edge over the McLaren?  Maybe this is the
    Benneton's chance to race for the lead.  (As opposed to waiting for
    others to drop out.)  
    
    The mortality of the McLaren's is now evident.  Can the others run
    the distance.  It was a shame that Nigel didn't get the win in Canada. 
    It would great to have the Williams, Bennetons, McLarens, and Ferraris
    compete for more than the first 20 laps.  I suspect that Honda
    engineers aren't getting much sleep lately with both engines dying on
    Isle Notre Dame.  Look for them to be stronger in Mexico.  I would not
    rule out the Tyrells to finish well either.
    
    Needless to say, I have regained my enthusiasm for a competitive F1
    season.  I was becoming bored by the Senna parade of the first four
    races.  Too bad the Mexico race is being delayed until Midnight Sunday. 
    I will have to wait until Monday night to see the race.  I will have to
    shun sports coverage so the suspense of the race will keep until then.
    
    I hope we can liven up this F1 notes file.  There seem to be lots of
    very knowledgable F1 fans out there keeping quiet.  Can we get some
    speculation on outcome of the races?  I will read my Autoweek when it
    arrives, ponder over the options, and post my predictions next week.
    
    Regards,
    
    Jeff

Before the discussions all turn toward Mexico...

For whatever it's worth, I was sitting in the stands at the hairpin and 
when Mansell exited the turn and didn't accellerate I didn't hear his 
characteristic revving of the engine. I did have ear plugs in so I 
can't say whether the engine was dead or not. I thought it may have 
been possible that he has realized that if the car is in neutral he 
should just flip the selector switch until he feels a gear before 
pressing his foot to the floor.

Besides, I was getting very aggrevated by a Mansell fan so I was 
hoping he wouldn't win!

    
    
    	John Barnard left Benetton team ! I'm very disappointed
    	because next year, with the new Ford and Barnard's car, 
    	Nelson Piquet could have really fought for the world
    	Championship.... 
    
    	Does anybody know the name of new Benetton designer ?
    
    	Alex

    I just saw the news about Barnard.  Does anyone have any details as to
    why he was let go?  Is this another example of clashing egos?  I
    understand that Barnard is a very tough man to work for and with, but
    he is one of the best designers around.  However, his ego may be too
    large.  Years ago, when still at McLaren, it was said that he was upset
    with the team and media because Prost and Lauda got all the press,
    recognition and adulation.  When I see other designers toiling in the
    heat of the battle, they seldom get the glory.  And many have had long
    and productive careers.  Mayby Barnard is a bit "too eccentric" for his
    own good?
    
    At any rate, the rumor mills must be spinning over time.  BTW, do the
    rumor mills have rev limiters?  I can hear them now:
    
    1)  Barnard rejoins Ferrari to shore up their efforts.
    2)  Barnard and Prost star at the new Peugeot F1 team.
    3)  Barnard rejoins McLaren.
    
    Any others??
    
    Paul
    

Re: last

Last year, Barnard made an interesting comment in an interview.  He said he'd 
like to go back to Indy someday and build another winner (he designed the 
Chapparal 2K ground effects machine that won in 1980).  Considering how F1 
people look down their noses at Indycars I thought it a very curious statement.
Maybe one of the rumored (Japanese) entrants into CART has coughed up the BIG 
bucks necessary to secure Mr. Barnard's services.  Or maybe Mercedes has secured
him for their F1 effort. 

    Yes, George, the F1 folks do look down their noses.  There is a quote
    in the latest "Road & Track" by one of the F1 teams members in Phoenix
    and he said: "Indy cars used to be one year behind Formula 1 in
    technology.  Now they're three."  Well, ok.  I admit there is a gap in
    the current technology.  Some of it's because of the rules.  But
    frankly, if one compares the 1991 CART and F1 seasons, CART has had the
    much more entertaining and competitive show.  I have enjoyed every race
    CART's put on thus far and look forward to the remainder of the season. 
    I would welcome John Barnard to CART.  I suspect that the lure of the
    really big money will keep him in Europe.
    
    Paul
    

    o Barnard leaves Benneton.
    
    o TWR linked with Ford HB Turbo powered CART project.
    
    Anyone else see a posible link? :^)
    
    If Barnard's split from Benneton was Ford inspired then it would seem
    unlikely they'd link up with him again in CART, but if not...
    
    Mark
    
    PS British F3 is more entertaining and competitive than F1, but that
    doesn't mean the cars are as advanced. F3 is mainly mass produced
    racing cars built down to a cost, like CART. This disuades the spending
    of vast sums to achieve dominance (although the TOMS and the Bowman are
    worrying signs of a swing towards F1 style design trends and
    fund-raising problems!).

>.143>  [...]gas, but had a mechanical problem, so slowing down 
>.143>  wouldn't have done much good -- no gears left (not one!) was the 
>.143>  final word, wasn't it?     
    
>   hmm, slowing down wouldn't've reduced the stress on the gears by any
>   chance would it?  maybe enough so that the last one might've lived?
    
Let me explain something to you. Slowing down wouldn't do any good 
unless you happened to be in a useful gear and stayed there. The 
Williams uses a hydraulically operated semi-automatic gearbox and the 
hydraulic system doesn't allow for finesse, i.e., for being gentle 
with the gearbox. The driver cannot slow down his shifts or work the 
shifter to slide things gently into place, the hydraulics simply ram 
the gear changes through under something like 1500 psi. 


>    guess we'll never know, will we, just as we'll never know if that
>    "final word" was truth or merely ego protection for a highly paid
>    number one?
    
I think sometimes we can take these things at face value without 
undue cynicism. While F1 drivers are certainly self-serving at times, 
at other times they simply don't need to be. Both Patrese and Mansell 
have experienced repeated problems with the gearbox throughout the 
season. Frank Williams and designer Adrian Newey have many times 
acknowledged that they have a problem with this gearbox that lies in 
the box itself not in its handling by the drivers.


>    For my money Nigel is the most erratic top-rank driver in F1 for many
>    years.  When he's on he's great, but he seems to endure many more
>    bonehead moments than his peers. Just MHO.


You are, of course, entitled your opinion. Mansell is a passionate 
driver and he may very well be harder on equipment than many. Frank 
Williams is also entitled to his opinion, and with his win record, 
I think I'll put *my* money where Frank Williams puts his. 

--Lil

    Well, here are my picks for the race Sunday.  Given Mexico is a faster
    track than Montreal, I was tempted to put Nigel up at the top.  But I
    think he will suffer some car problems (surprise, surprise).  
    
               1 - Patrese
               2 - Senna
               3 - Modena
               4 - Prost
               5 - Piquet
               6 - Mansell
    
    Any other people guessing on the race?
    
    Jeff

So, what happened to the race last night?  I set the VCR for midnight and
woke up this morning to 4 hours of guys hitting balls with big sticks......

Dave

       That's what I say what happened all I got was Baseball from midnight
    to 2:00, and on Sports Center I found out who won Mexico but the race 
    did not come on at midmight as the TV Guide said!!!???
    
       Anyone know if they really ment tonight at midnight or something.
    
    Mark 
    
    No Breakfeast at Mexico this Morning!
    

Re: last 

Saw a rumor in rec.autos.sport it's on at 3:30 am Wednesday.  Don't know if it's
legit.

Serves us race fans right, as CBS, for probably the first time in its history,
blew off a sweat sport to complete their coverage of the CART Detroit GP.  Must
show those race fans who's boss.

And how 'bout those Ferraris! (that's a :-b , folks)

George (who's waiting for shrill calls to ban the inherently dangerous sport
of golf (it's played outside! where there's lightning!) from the usual gang
of anti-racing idiots who come out of the woodwork after any racing fatality)

Re: Note 790.156 by TNPUBS::ALLEGREZZA 

>                         -< ESPN :== rat bastard scum >-

Ummm...I dunno.  ESPN got caught between a rock and a hard place twice
yesterday.  The Pocono Winston Cup event ran *way* long due to a rain
delay, and I'll bet there are several tennis fans all upset about the Davis
Cup match being chopped.  I believe a baseball game went 15 innings or so
last night, causing the Mexico GP coverage to be dropped. 

ESPN is the best thing available in the USA for televise motorsports coverage.  

>Saw a rumor in rec.autos.sport it's on at 3:30 am Wednesday. Don't know if it's
>legit.

According to the folks on ESPN's sports wrap-up show that I recorded in 
lieu of the Mexican GP, 3:30 a.m. Wednesday is correct.

.152>  Let me explain something to you. Slowing down wouldn't do any good 
.152>  unless you happened to be in a useful gear and stayed there. 
    
    No need to explain that to me, I found it out the hard way when my
    shifter broke in the downhill lefthander entering the boot at the Glen,
    in my first race after drivers school about six years ago.  The same
    experience taught me that when you're having symptoms of tranny/shifter
    problems and catch a gear, any gear, you leave it there and cruise if
    at all possible.  
    
.152>  The Williams uses a hydraulically operated semi-automatic gearbox and 
.152>  the hydraulic system doesn't allow for finesse, i.e., for being gentle 
.152>  with the gearbox. The driver cannot slow down his shifts or work the 
.152>  shifter to slide things gently into place, the hydraulics simply ram 
.152>  the gear changes through under something like 1500 psi. 
    
    I will defer to your superior knowledge of the internals of the
    Williams gearbox, specifically the degree and method of syncronization
    ("simply ram the changes through" is much less sophisticated than I
    expected).
    
    However, I will also ask whether the particular design of those
    internals will cause higher transient stresses in the entire drivetrain
    when the mill is putting out full power and torque at the shiftpoint,
    compared with the same shift by the same mechanism at the same RPM but
    with slightly reduced throttle?  FWIW, my intuitive suspicion, without
    specific knowledge of the particulars of the Williams box but based on
    general principals of mechanics, is that ramming the box into gear at
    full throttle will cause higher transients than doing it at reduced
    throttle.  If that is true, my point stands as previously stated.
    
    
    

    Mexico results:
    
        First  - Patrese
        Second - Mansell
        Third  - Senna
        Fourth - de Cesaris
        Fifth  - Moreno
        Sixth  - Bernard
    
    I picked the winner and three of the top six, not too bad.  Due to
    problems with the baseball game, still haven't seen the race.  Will
    have to wait until Wed at 3:30.  The folks over in cars_uk mention high
    attrition and some spectacular last laps by Mansell.  Surprising to see
    de Cesaris place so highly, good for the EJR team.  Senna had a big
    crash on Friday.  I wonder if he is feeling more mortal these days?  He
    has had some cuts and bruises these past two weeks.  
    
    Next race is France on July 7.  Ferrari should have a new chassis by
    then.  Track is very smooth which could lead to some interesting
    qualifying.
    
    Jeff

When the race has not yet been shown, could we use form feeds 
before giving away the outcome, please? I, for one, much prefer 
to watch the race without knowing the finish, and have been 
staying away from Sports Center, etc., with the Wednesday wee 
hours showing in mind.

Thanks!

--Lil

    Watched the tape of the race last night.  It was great to see Patrese
    and Mansell so competitive.  The Williams looked hooked to the track
    and very strong.  Patrese's drive was excellent and Mansell was
    spectacular in the last 20 laps.  The track, though rough, has always
    impressed me.  There are a few turns there that are soooo quick, like
    the one leading onto the front straight.  Ferrari still look
    uncompetitive.  Not sure what to think of it.  But I also think that
    it's way to early to think that McLaren and Senna are on their way out.
     
    I'm looking forward to the next three races.  Is Magny-Cours a fast or
    slow track?  I understand that it is very smooth, but I know little of
    the configuration.  Silverstone should be interesting too since the
    layout is new.  Some oft he cars that did not handle the roughness of
    Mexico may be quite competitive in France, Britain and Germany.
    
    Paul

    Can you folks help me get a better understanding of the leadership of
    this series? I chuckle at some of things you write about Balestre and
    Ecclestone and even the auto magazines are now putting in a few zingers.
    I even heard Hobbs say something nasty during a broadcast.
    
    How did these guys get to that position? Are they elected, buy-in etc.
    and if they are as bad as I'm led to believe, how can they be removed
    from office?
    
    Finally, what is the relationship of FIA and FISA?    
    
    Thanks,
    bob

    
    Bob,
    
    My knowledge is a bit limited but I'll give it a try.  Others are
    welcome to add/modify/correct me.
    
    FIA is the International Automobile Federation based in Paris.
    FISA is the sporting arm of the FIA.  They, FISA, are responsable for
    sanctioning events, granting licenses, establishing rules etc.  Within
    each participating nation a national body is empowered to be the
    intermediary between the national and international concerns.  Members
    of the national organizations sit on a variety of FIA committees.  Here in
    the US that organization is ACCUS (sorry, don't know what the acronym
    represents).  Burdie Martin (?) represents ACCUS in Paris.
    
    Jean Marie Balestre is the president of both FIA and FISA.  Hence he
    can do as he pleases, and generally does so.
    Bernie Ecclestone is vice president of FISA and the president of FOCA
    (Formula One Constructors Organization).
    
    I read somewhere that Balestre used to be a motorsports journalist.  I
    don't know if that is true or not.  How he came to presidential power I
    do not know either.  He is routinely re-elected at the FIA/FISA plenary
    meetings.  The politics of the FIA/FISA and these meetings is generally
    regarded as byzantine and certainly is little understood by the ordinary
    motorsports fan.
    
    Balestre is held in low regard because he is widely perceived to be a
    loose cannon.  He routinely makes and breaks rules at his whim.  For
    instance, it was Balestre who created all sorts of acrymony amoung the
    sports car teams when he unilaterally decided to let Nissan compete at
    LeMans in direct contrvention of the rules.  The outcry amoung teams
    competing for the world championship was so furious he had to back
    down.  Another example, a few years ago FISA instituted a rule
    prohibiting pedestrian traffic on a race track during the event.  Stiff
    fines were introduced to enforce the policy.  Not long thereafter Balestre
    was nearly run down at the German GP shortly after the start as he scurried
    across the race track.  Fine?  What fine?  It was reported that
    Balestre leaned on Enzo Ferrari to move him up the F40 waiting list.
    The story goes that as soon as he got the car he sold it at auction for
    100% profit (though in fairness, many others sold F40s for similar
    profit).  More recently Balestre has shot his mouth off a lot about Indy
    and the 3.5l engine formula, as well as a World Oval Series.  While such
    things *may* come about they are in no way a done deal as Balestre so
    implies.
    
    Ecclestone is a former car dealer who got into race team ownership.  He
    used to own the Braham F1 team and saw an oppurtunity at the dawn of
    the commercial era in motorsports to capitalize on F1.  He became
    president of FOCA and FOCA in turn wrested considerable power from the
    FISA to gain control of itself.  That once  adversarial relationship
    seems to have turned highly cooperative. F1 has grown in scale, wealth and
    popularity by leaps and bounds since.  It is considerably safer, and
    more professional.  The down side is $s rule the day in F1 and the
    heritage of sportsmanship exemplified by the likes of past GP greats
    has been considerably eroded.  Fans now pay big bucks to be shooed away
    from their heroes while corporate representatives are coddled.  So,
    Ecclestone's legacy is a mixed bag.  And by the way, F1 has made him
    very wealthy!  I saw it reported that GP promoters used to put up $3
    million dollars for an event.  $1 million to FISA, $1 million to FOCA for
    transportation and the like, and $1 million to Ecclestone.  Per event.
    A sixteen event calendar.  Ecclestone is reagrded by many to be the
    heir to Balestre's crown.
    
    Balestre and Ecclestone and held sway while F1 has become what is
    today.  For better and worse.  They are generally regarded as highly
    provincial and *very* jealous of F1.  Their attitudes and behaviour
    toward other international, and some national (read CART), series is
    often perceived to be to the detriment of the lesser series with an
    eye toward bolstering F1.  The current state of chaos in World Sports
    Car racing and the use of 3.5l engines in this series is perceived by
    many to be an effort to weaken F1s competion while provding an
    increased supply of F1 compatable engines.  Rally racing, at it's
    pinnacle in the mid-eighties Group B era seems to this untrained
    observer a shadow of it's former self.  Ecclestone in particular has
    made his disdain for both these series very clear.
    
    JMB and "the dwarf" seem to have Indy/CART and oval racing as their
    next target.  CART however, has not been inclined to roll over easily.
    Tony George of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway seems to have a bit of
    an alliance with JMB right now, but he is protecting family interests
    and seems sufficiently pragmatic and independant to prevent FISA
    control of that event.
    
    My my.  I'm am rambling.  Anyway, I hope this sheds some light on why
    JMB and Ecclestone are the target of so many barbs.
    
    - Nate

    Let's hope Tony George is sufficiently pragmatic and independent.
    Someone else entered a very good description elsewhere in this
    conference: Yutz!
    
    Then again maybe grandma's got enough spunk left to whack him up side
    the head if he gets too crazy. Tony has to remeber that USAC sanctions
    just one Indy car race now and thta's Indy. CART sanctions all other
    races. Indy almost didn't have a full field this year. If TG aligns IMS
    with the two dictators from abroad maybe the CART boys will just take
    their business someplace else. Remeber Penske owns Michigan and
    Nazareth(?) now and he's pretty powerful. Don't take this as a whole
    hearted endorsement of the CART good-ol-boy network either, I'm just
    stating my views of what may happen in the above situations.
    
    Then again maybe the Hulman family will bring in A.J. to run the place.
    What a dream, a very popular and knowledgeable ex racer running the
    show.
    
    TPV
    

.163>    Here in the US that organization is ACCUS (sorry, don't know what 
.163>    the acronym represents).  Burdie Martin (?) represents ACCUS in Paris.
    
    ACCUS = Automobile Competition Committee of the US
    
    
.164>    Let's hope Tony George is sufficiently pragmatic and independent.
.164>    Someone else entered a very good description elsewhere in this
.164>    conference: Yutz!
    
.164>    Then again maybe the Hulman family will bring in A.J. to run the place.
.164>    What a dream, a very popular and knowledgeable ex racer running the
.164>    show.
    
    One of the two racing mags (On_Track and _Autoweek_) I get recently
    profiled Tony George in fairly flattering terms, I forget which one. 
    Basically they pointed out that he hasn't been in a position of power
    at the Speedway very long at all, yet he has already managed some
    degree of accomplishments, and his involvement with JMB et al seems
    opportunistic in the extreme.  In short, they sounded like they thought
    he belonged in the same league, but perhaps without the scurvy
    mendacity of the FISA/FOCA management.  Far as I'm concerned, the jury
    is still out.  I'll wait and see what goes down for awhile before I
    form any strong opinion on the man.
    
    But the idea of putting AJ in charge would be really interesting.  He'd
    certainly win a lot of fan sympathy.  Again, wait and see if, when, and
    how.  Most interesting to me would be the context...

    To expand a bit further, the way to get Bozo and the Dwarf out of
    office is to put a contract out on them and pray it's successful. 
    Isn't Balestre something like President for life?  Bernie is probably
    Vice-President until the bucks stop.  I'll end this negativism and go
    align my telescopic sight.

    re: .165
    It was Autoweek that profiled George, and it was a positive article.  I
    agree we'll have to wait to see, but he certainly doesn't seem cowed by
    JMB and Bernie.  And he surely hasn't shown any signs of idiocy as JMB
    has over the years.  I think George is in a tough situation.  He is
    managing the biggest show in all motorsport.  He wants it to be
    successful, but he doesn't run the series.  Entries were down this
    year, and the competition is dominated by a single engine.  WHat do you
    do?  In some ways, I believe the 3.5l rule would help.  No short term,
    mind you, but it would have a positive effect looking out 4 or more
    years since it would bring in more auto makers.  It may also lead to an
    era of greater international involvement in Indy cars.  That could be
    good.  Or not.
    
    The decisions George makes in the next few years will have a major
    impact on Indy and Indy car racing.  What do the other noters think of
    the 3.5l rule and/or otherr things George should do?
    
    Paul
    

How would the 3.5 engines stand up to the current engines running at Indy?  Would it be
practical to just allow 3.5 litre n/a engines to compete or they get 'blown' away
by the current turbo engines?

Dropping one set of rules and picking up a new set in one year seems a little
drastic.  If they want to eventually go to all 3.5 litres, then a gradual switch
over might make more sense.

Dave

    
    	Results from Nevers Magny-Cours French grand Prix
    
    
    	1st  Mansell
    	2nd  Prost
    	3rd  Senna
    	4th  Alesi
    	5th  Patrese
    	6th  De Cesaris
    
    		Prost led from the start until lap 22 when  Mansell passed
    	on the inside of the hairpin. Mansell then led until the rounds
    	of pit stops. Prost changed in 7 seconds and Mansell 10 seconds.
    	Mansell came out 2 seconds behind Prost. (Senna managed an
    	incredible 5.5 seconds!) Mansell passed Prost again on lap 55 and
    	raced to the chequered flag 5 seconds ahead.
    
    		Senna still leads the drivers Championship by 23 points
    	from Mansell. 

This certainly has to be one of the most interesting races of the 
season.

1 - BOTH Ferrari's finished!
2 - There were 2 passes for the lead (both by Mansell on Prost)
3 - Patrese wasn't faster than Mansell (haven't heard why yet)
4 - Jordan finished in the points again
5 - Three different teams made the podium
6 - 2 of the people on the podium were on speaking terms

How many cars were left running at the end?

.170>   1 - BOTH Ferrari's finished!
    		More than that, both gave us some good racing.  Too bad 
    		Alesi didn't have another lap or two to chase Senna down, 
    		there at the end it looked likely we'd see another pass for
    		position, but not quite.
.170>   2 - There were 2 passes for the lead (both by Mansell on Prost)
    		Plus some incredible starts, both Mansell and Prost got
    		a great jump off the line.  And some, er, interesting 
    		lapping too (how many times did Mansell shake his fist
    		at some backmarker or another?)
    
.170>   How many cars were left running at the end?
    
    at most 12.  I remember hearing the report of somebody (not sure who?)
    dropping out when lying 11th or 12th, leaving the two Ligiers running
    11 & 12 at the back.

    Will the espn broadcast be shown again this week some time does anyone
    know?
    
    thanks
    
    Mark
    

    
    I haven't checked the listings but you might look at 3:30 AM on
    Wednesday.  ESPN frequently rebroadcasts races from the previous weekend
    at that hour.
    
    - Nate

It was rebroadcasted yesterday (Tuesday) morning at 3:30am.
I got it on tape if you're interested. I'm at ZK3.

Mark

        Mansell, fastest in ist time session at Silverstone in the 122's
    and comfortably ahead of all other at this point, Also a rumor that
    Tom Walkenshaw (SP) may buy the Benneton F1 team seems Benneton has
    lost interest in Formula 1.  
    
        Good luck Nigel at Silverstone This may well be his last British GP
    as rumors are about the he will race in the states next year and be
    connected with Nissan!  Seem he has bought his 7 mil plus home in
    Florida!
    
    
    Mark

    re -1 
    
    	there is no may about Tom Walkinshaw buying Benneton , Tom has
    infact bought a 35% share in Benneton. Asked at the weekend when he
    expected things to change at benneton , His answer was monday..
    
    I wounder if next year Brundle will be driving a Benneton????
    
    Garry

    Did anyone catch the guy moon the camera after Mansell picked up Senna?
    He was waving the Union Jack, then dropped it to "drop trow"...
    
    jim e

    
    Re .177
    
    My Mum did! Still what do you expect of an event peopled 90% by lager
    louts?
    
    Mark

    The preliminary FISA schedule for the 1992 F1 season was released
    recently, and the US does not have a date, even though the Phoenix
    contract has two years left to run!?
    
    Austria and South Africa are back on the schedule, Hungary is out,
    there will be only one North American date (either Mexico or Canada but
    not both), and the Spanish race is moved up to coincide with the 1992
    Olympics.

    I'm not surprised at Phoenix being dropped, but I am miffed that there
    will be no US GP.  The last rumor was that Road Alanta was being
    considered.  Overall, a good choice, except that the racing surface
    appears (from tv) to be a bit narrow.  But it must be better than any
    street course.  I've never been to Road Atlanta.  How ar ethe access
    roads, ammenities, etc.?  I was near Laguna Seca a few weeks ago. 
    Beautiful country, nice track, but poor access.  No wonder the locals
    wouldn't be in favor of an F1 race.  It's go to be pretty bad there
    when the CART boys show up.
    
    Paul
    

Ok, with the contract and seat jumping between Moreno and Schumacher...
what happened to Nannini? I haven't heard his name (or Martin Donnely's)
lately.

Nannini is still recouperating and he was supposed to be doing some testing
in a car this fall, last I heard.  (Testing himself, not the car, that is)
Same for Martin Donnelly I presume.  He was supposed to have a seat back at Lotus
when he's better and since all the switching has been between Benetton and EJR,
I would guess his seat is still available.

The Silly Season is still is full swing, so I wouldn't start using pens quite yet
to fill in next year's teams.....

Dave

    MN states that Nannini is postponing a return to racing for a year and
    has virtually discounted a return to F1. It seems more likely he will
    appear in Touring Cars (or failing that he'll go to the old folks home,
    CART! :^) )
    
    Mark

    NEWSFLASH!!!!
    
          This may be old news to some, but Senna and Berger have signed
    on again with Honda. Senna will get an nice contract of $20 MILLION !
    This news has made Prost decide to stay on with Ferrari( I think he 
    should retire).All of the above causes poor Nelson Piquet to retire	as 
    he lost his drive with Benneton.I think Piquet could have been a good
    choice for Ferrari,he still has the desire to win.
                                         
                                              FORZA FERRARI !!
                                                    BRUNO

    Piquet retires ???  I don't think so somehow.

    I'm quite surprised that there has been no "wailing and gnashing of
    teeth" over the Mansell tire incident, and subsequent stupid, 18 laps
    late, FISA call for a black flag.
    
    In fact, there haven't been any comment on that race at all.  Is all of
    Europe on vacation, or don't you folks care anymore?
    
    I expected to come in Monday, the latest Tuesday, and read all sorts
    of interesting behind the scenes press commentary about what went on.
    

    What's the crowd concensus on the new track in Spain?  David Hobbs on
    ESPN was describing it as a big dustbowl.  They were working 24 hours a
    day to get it ready.  Will it be ready?  How is it as a driver's
    course?  Does it have passing spots?  Hopefully it is not another
    Hungaroring and the passing parade.  Given the performance of the
    Williams team in this second half, I would have to go with them to win. 
    But if Senna (and lately Berger) can crank out a good qualifying lap,
    they might be able to hold that for the race.  That would put the
    Ferrari's down to the third row, but the Benettons might split them up. 
    The Jordan cars should vie with the Minardi and Leyton House to
    complete the top half of the grid.  
    
    Any other thoughts out there?  Any news of the new track would be
    appreciated.  
    
    Jeff

There has been a lot of dicsussion on this topic over there.  Basically the
tire holder raised his hand to signal the tire was on, but just then the tire
changer (the guy with the air wrench), took the nut off because it had
cross threaded.  The car took off and we all know the rest.

Dave

    We didn't reply to the 18 laps before the black flag here cuz we can't
    put the words we used in this notes file....  :-)
    
    jim e

    See .162
    I read in this week's Autoweek that a person has stepped up to 
    oppose JMB in his House of Lords for the FISA presidency.
    
    Reading on, he is an attorny and founder of March Cars.
    
    Anyone think he has a chance?
    
    bob

    
    Max Mosley is the man. He has a lot of recent FISA history.
    
    It's not as remote as it sounds. In Britain the RAC has backed Mosley
    (Who is a Brit), but whether he'd really make a difference is anyone's
    guess.
    
    Mark

    He is the son of Sir Oswald Moseley, the erstwhile king of the British
    Nazis !!

    What's funny (or sad) is that, according to a posting on
    rec.autos.sport, one of the UK car rags, in a bio of Moseley, said his
    father was "one of the earliest proponents of a united Europe."  Along
    with one A. Shicklegruber, of course.

    Following that logic, Jeffrey Daumer could be described as being on an
    alternative diet.

    
    Wonderful British irony!?!?!?
    
    Mark

    Even if he wins though it will be just a case of one Brown Shirt
    replacing another 8-)
    
    Dave

    Wasn't there a story/rumor some months back claiming the putz Balestre
    had been a collaborationist in occupied France during the war?  

    re .-the last few, it's nice to see the sins of the fathers are still
    visited upon successive generations! 	:-)
    
    re .190 (and any other substantive discussion on that topic): the
    challenger to JMB is one Max Moseley, one of the founders of the MARCH
    marque and a long-time associate (one might say "confederate") of none
    other than a Mr. Bernie Ecclestone!  Reports I've been seeing in
    various publications seem to give Mr. Moseley a reasonably good chance
    of success.  Personally, I have a tremendous conflict over this
    development.  On the one hand, I'd consider almost anything preferrable
    as an alternative to continuing the rule of M. Balestre.  On the other,
    I feel that giving any additional influence to Mr. Ecclestone seems no
    more preferrable to Balestre.  On the balance I think (however
    reluctantly) that I'd like to see Max Moseley win, just for the sake of
    a change from the present established order.  If nothing else it opens
    more possibility of change in the future.  Also, as much as I find some
    of Bernie's more avaricious tendencies distasteful in the extreme, he
    is at least arguably competent, which is more than can be said for the
    present incumbent.  In fact, I'd tend to suspect that this development
    may demonstrate Bernie's conclusion that a change in the figurehead is
    necessary, and in that (hate to say this) I wholeheartedly agree.
    

    Ballestre lists among his supporters:
    
    Jaguar
    Ron Dennis
    "A number of top drivers"
    Mercedes(?)

    
    GOD!!!!
    
    Mark

    Re: .198
    
    Mr. Moesley's tendencies are quite relevant when one considers that
    international motor racing is not run as a democracy or even a
    benevolent dictatorship, but as a sultanate, where the primary
    objectives are the aggrandizement, enrichment, and ego satisfaction of
    a very few.
    
    His background is also relevant when one considers the reaction of the
    sport's major sponsors, some of which are already under enormous
    political pressure.

    
    George,
    
    Permit me an observation if you will...
    
    CART is a democracy, where often "the primary objectives are the
    aggrandizement, enrichment, and ego satisfaction of a very few."
    
    - Nate 

    Re: last
    
    You're absolutely right, but at least the set {very few} is >2 :-)

.201>    Re: .198
.201>    Mr. Moesley's tendencies are quite relevant when one considers...
    
.198>    re .-the last few, it's nice to see the sins of the fathers are still
.198>    visited upon successive generations! 	:-)
    
    George, your comment in .201 missed my point that entries .193-.195
    were concerned entirely with Mr. Moseley's ancestral burden, and .196
    (which was the first and only entry concerning him personally) contained
    nothing more than a slanderous subjective comment tarring his politics
    with the same brush as his father's without any trace of objective
    justification to back it up.
    
    If there is any evidence pertaining to Mr. Moseley's philosophy, that
    is relevent.  In the absence of such, his parentage and the politics of
    his forebears is not meaningful.  History abounds with as many examples of
    children rebelling against parental attitudes as of their following the
    same attitudes.
    
    Incidentally, until I was composing this post I was regarding this
    thread as nothing more than an interesting marginal flamewar.  BUT...
    
    As moderator I must be concerned with the possibility that postings
    such as .196 might be slanderous in the legal sense, and thus in
    violation of corporate Policy 6.54, if there is no objective
    justification for the comments made.  So, STOP THE MUDSLINGING!

    
    IMHO, Adolf Hitler would be better for motor racing than JMB!!!!
    
    After all Hitler built those great roads AND made sure that 
    Germany had two top flight F1 teams!!!!!
    
    Mark

    I really can't believe I read .204 !!

    Re: .204
    
    I will stop the commentary about Mr. Moesley.  But please be aware
    that, in order for him to discover the occurrence in RACERS of what you
    describe as "mudslinging", there would have to be a violation of
    another, more important Digital policy regarding the unautorized
    release of internal use only information (notes conferences,
    specifically), the penalty for which could be termination, not to
    mention potential civil litigation by the Corporation.
    
    I respect your opinion, Bruce, and your role and actions as moderator,
    but there's no need to shout.  A simple directive will suffice.  Sorry
    to have offended you.

    re .207 - George, I have had one instance where (as moderator of
    CONSUMER) I had to deal with Corporate Legal over threats of litigation
    because of comments about an independent business made in that forum. 
    It turned out that a principal in the business was also a Digital
    employee.  We've recently seen postings here by an employee related to
    Bertrand Gachot, and had any comments been made here derogatory to Mr.
    Gachot they would have surely been seen by Eric.  The point is, we are
    not safe in assuming that our behavior here is hidden from public view
    or becoming know to the outside objects of our comments, just because
    it is an internal corporate forum.
    
    Also, we cannot assume that we are free from conventional standards of
    behavior just because we are participating in an internal notes
    conference that has somewhat limited distribution.  As I understand it,
    we are still subject to the same legal constraints that affect other
    media.  So it is not clear that the prohibition against unauthorized
    release of internal information would be applicable if, for example,
    Mr. Moseley's solicitors were to come calling with a writ based on
    someone's reporting the fact (not the content) of some objectionable or
    even merely questionable posting here.  My belief is that Digital would
    have no legal grounds for contesting a writ of discovery and probably
    would not choose to do so even if it was possible to do so, but instead
    the release of information would be authorized (obviating the objection
    raised in .207).  
    
    Whether any specific scenario is likely is not the question, as
    moderator it is my job to ensure that the contents of this conference
    conform to official policy, and I felt the previous tangent was getting
    onto thin ice.  I'm sorry if that bothers anybody, but I'm not prepared
    to take responsibility for moderating this conference without also
    having some semblance of decorum.  I find the condemnation of any 
    individual based on the political view of their parents violates my
    sense of decorum both personally and in light of the corporate policy. 
    I prefer not to enforce my personal views, but I have no choice about
    enforcing corporate policy.
    
    I am sincerely sorry if this offends or upsets anyone, but I don't see
    any alternative.

    
    All the notes in the current series of responses reflect one basic
    fact.  FIA and FISA (essentially synonomous with JMB)  command about
    zero respect.  This in spite of the phenominal success of F1.  If
    this perception weren't deserved then surely FIA/FISA would have sought
    to deal with it.  The lack of a credible effort to deal with this
    simply validates the perception.
    
    FIA/FISA needs to do several things.  IMO the most notable are;
    	a.) Restore a degree of respect towards itself by...
    	b.) electing a president that can communicate the belief that the
    	    office is held by a rational, reasonable and pragmatic
    	    leader who seeks to see the *whole* of world motorsport
    	    flourish.  A good start toward that would be to...
    	c.) Administer a genuine even handed plan to restore sports car
    	    racing to its' former prestige and participation.
    	d.) Stop feuding with CART and find ways to co-exist for the
    	    betterment of FISA, CART and Indy.
    
    F1 has phenominal momentum and will continue to flourish.  FISA's
    energy at this point ought to be in credible efforts directed toward
    other catagories of motorsport.
    
    If Mosely can chart a course to accomplish the points above then he
    ought to be elected.  Just MHO.
    
    - Nate

    Re: .208

    I'm not sure the unique case you cite is relevant here.  But you've
    obviously taken a great deal of ownership in this issue and I'll
    respect your need to do so.

    I participate in RACERS because it's fun and I learn a lot from other
    people.  I apologize if I've offended anyone with my remarks, on this
    issue or others.  

    Some of the remarks in this conference about JMB and Bernie are
    certainly more inflammatory than those about Mosely.
    
    Bob J.

    The Word from a rec.autos.sport correspondent in Phoenix: Ecclestone
    has unilaterally canceled the 1992 USGP, giving the date to Mexico. 
    Apparently, he intends to negotiate a buyout with the city.

    .re .212
    
    Saw that announcement in this morning's USA Today.  Evidently Bernie
    intends to buy out the contract and also to purchase the F1 specific
    equipment that Phoenix has purchased.
    
    Do you suppose Bernie is taking out his frustration with CART on the
    US?
    
    Maybe he can make more money in Mexico!
    
    I wonder how many people in the US will notice that there is no F1
    race here?
    
    Bob J.

    Hi, Bob!
    
    It is clear that Bernie is acting in F1's interest.  BTW, interest is
    not something anyone in Phoenix has shown these alst few years.
    
    There is a move, it seems, in both F1 and CART away from the temporary
    street circuits.  The cost is too high.  There is even some talk about
    building a permanent circuit in the Denver area!  I'll believe that
    when I see it.  Still, Phoenix is a good racing town.  The CART race
    has always had good attendance.  I'd like to see the USGP on a good
    road course, but there isn't one that currently meets FISA's standards. 
    My first choice would be Road America, with Road Alanta and Laguna Seca
    right up there.  The latter's problem is access, though they manage
    well when CART comes to town.
    
    Too bad, but we all saw it coming.
    
    Paul

    Forgot to mention in the last note that the CART/Indy war seems to be
    cooling.  It was mentioned in AUTOWEEK a few weeks ago that Tony George
    and William Stookan (sp?) have been talking and that both respect one
    another.  They certainly seem to have more to gain thru cooperation
    that war.  Neither is carrying forward the baggage of the bad history. 
    I'm hoping for reconciliation.  A united front is the best way to face
    the FIA, JMB and Eclestone.  And to make money.  Let's hope it works
    for them and us.
    
    Paul
    

    
    Re .214
    
    I can't see F1 ever racing at Laguna Seca. From what I've seen of the
    circuit on TV, it'd be much too interesting for the F1 boys (they'll
    call it dangerous!).
    
    Road America seems a likely track. Still with F1's recent US history
    I wouldn't be suprised if some fool built a circuit for it at huge
    expense!!!!
    
    What I want to know is, what was wrong with Long Beach?
    
    Mark

    -----History lesson-----
    
    Since Mr Mosely senior returned from internment after WWII he 
    shunned the public eye and polictical life. He dedicated himself to a 
    life as worker for charitable causes possibly in some sense of
    atonement (although a reknowned National socialist I believe no
    violent acts could be attributed to him) 
    	
    	It is probably in the atmosphere of organising and fund raising for
    charity that Mr Mosely Jr has been brought up.
                             

    
    Different history books to the ones we had at school, Derek.
    
    Mark

    
    Mark,
    
    re .216
    
    What was wrong with Long Beach?
    
    F1 didn't give up on the LBGP.  The LBGP gave up on F1.  Organizer
    Chris Pook decided CART made more economic sense.  At least that was
    the line fed the media.  Though the CART race struggled for a couple
    of years it seems well entrenched, and profitable, now.  
    
    I too would love to see F1 at Laguna or Road America.  Both have
    drawbacks of course.  Though the facility at Laguna seems better
    prepared to handle F1 the accessability is atrocious.  I suspect
    Road America would require millions of $ to improve the safety and
    facility for F1.  Barcelona and to a lesser degree Magny-Cours appear
    to have set very high standards for new venues.
    
    Seems a tall order with the current state of our economy and our lack
    of regard for proper circuit safety.
    
    - Nate

    	What's wrong with Bridgehampton?
    						John
    

.219>    F1 didn't give up on the LBGP.  The LBGP gave up on F1.  Organizer
.219>    Chris Pook decided CART made more economic sense.  At least that was
.219>    the line fed the media.  
    
    Another way of putting it is that F1 didn't give up on the LBGP but
    priced themselves out of that market.
    
    Somehow that sounds consistent enough with the typical F1 form for me
    to believe that "the line fed the media" was the truth.
    
    Kind of interesting to note that Detroit as well as the LBGP had the F1
    show replaced by CART, and in each case the financial health of the
    event has seemed to benefit.
    
    There have been a lot of rumors about Road Atlanta as a potential F1
    site, but I'll wait to see.
    
    BTW, it's my personal belief (based on firsthand observation of Monza
    and television exposure to other venues such as Barcelona and
    Magny-Cours) that there is no permanent circuit in the US that is up
    to F1 standards, or even comes close.  That is less a reflection on the
    course itself than the overall facility.  How many US circuits can
    provide a LAN drop in each of the several dozen permanent garages, with 
    the LAN carrying the official electronic timing and scoring information
    plus other data channels, as well as the many closed circuit TV feeds
    supplying the stewards with views of the entire track?  That's what it
    takes to play in the world-class road racing circuit leagues these
    days!

    Two racing items from this morning's USA Today:
    
    o	Watkins Glen is going to make changes to turn 5 to improve the
    safety.  It sounds like they are going to add some kind of S turn or
    chicane in an effort to slow the cars.
    
    o	The reason the USGP is moving to Mexico is that Bernie has gotten a
    better financial package there.  It was also mentioned that F1 could
    come back to the US in 93.  Possible venues were mentioned but the only
    one I can remember is Long Beach.  It caught my eye because I can not
    see Long Beach giving up the successful Indy car race to replace it
    with F1 and I doubt that they would add another race.  Of course maybe
    they could add the F1 race as the support race for the Indy cars :-).
    
    They also mentioned that JMB is facing his first serious challenge for
    the presidency of FISA.
    
    Bob J.

    Ballestre is out....

    RE .220
    
    John,
    
    It has been a long time since I've been to Bridgehampton! Seems as 
    though I remember a show on TV that said the track was becoming less
    and less active and may throw in the towel due to development
    pressures. You know something different?
    
    Bob

    	I dunno nuttin about politics.  It has always been my favorite
    track in the area.  I consider it to be much more
    interesting/challenging than for instance Watkins Glen.  It is
    unfortunate that like many other gravel pits surrounded by farms, the
    people who have moved into the area have decided that race tracks in
    abandoned gravel pits, and farms are quaint, but don't belong in the
    area where they have decided to set up houskeeping.  Before my day
    there were some major Can Am races there, and around ten years ago they
    managed to have a pro atlantic race there.
    	The unfortunate thing is that a proper racing facility nowadays
    means a go cart track in a parking lot with good electrical connections
    for TV.  The fact that it is difficult to impossible to have a decent
    race to televise when everything is compromised for television seems to
    excape most of the people concerned.  Can people imagine the kind of
    race that F1 could have on the Bridgehampton track?  How would that
    kind of racing compare with the kind of things that they have at Long
    Beach, Detroit, Phoenix, etc?  I've been to Long Beach, and the game
    was get around 90% of the track and hope that you have an opportunity
    to pass when you get to the straight.  Meaning that the only thing that
    counts is the engine.  Is this what road racing is about?  
    					John
    

    A few years ago the Bridge was pretty much on the ropes, but over the
    past couple of years there has been a concerted effort to revitalize
    the track that appears to have been fairly successful.  I know I've
    seen something in print just recently about it, I'll try to dig it up. 
    Seems that I recall it said the proponents of the track had managed to
    get the local residents and officialdom to recognize the value of the
    track to the area and how that more than offset any negatives.  I know
    they've had some minor league pro racing there this season.

    
    re .223
    
    Such has been Ballestre's tenacity that on this apparently blessed
    occasion I can't believe what I am reading, or that he won't rebound.
    Ballestre is like a cat with nine lives, and he has only used a few
    of them already.  Surely he will counter-attack?
        
    - Nate

    
    	re: Bridgehampton
    
    	I spent much of the mid 60's at that track. At some time during
    	that stretch they lost the Can-Am races because the track was too
    	narrow. Was it ever repaved?
    
    	Chris

    	re: Bridgehampton
    
I haven't been to "The Bridge" but I was under the impression that the 
track was braking up and that the safety left quite a bit to be desired. 
Wasn't it there that a Digital person rolled a car within the last two 
years?

	re: F1 as support race for CART

Can you imagine what those ticket prices would be like????

    	Bridgehampton is a rather fast track as northeast tracks go.  In
    most places (not all) there is a fair amount of runoff room.  There was
    a partial repaving at the time of the pro atlantic race.  From my
    perspective it is difficult to know what safety would be like with cars
    going close to 200mph.
    	
    	As far as someone rolling a car there is concerned, it is totally
    meaningless.  There are rollovers at almost every race event at almost
    every track in existence.  They are interesting to watch (especially
    from inside the car), but do not in any way reflect on the safety or
    lack thereof of any course.  
    	A much greater concern is the proximity of massive, vertical
    objects near enough to the track to be hit by a car in a believable
    accident.  The one place a the bridge that is dangerous in this way is
    the vehicle bridge to the infield at the end of the straight.
    
    	But I wasn't that serious anyway.  I just love the bridge and would
    like to drive there again if I ever escape from poverty.
    						John
    

    >I just love the bridge and would like to drive there again if I ever
    >escape from poverty.
    
    John, if I can afford to drive there so can you.  Come join us (COMSCC)
    next July.  EMRA does lots of time trials there too.
    
    I have driven at Bridgehampton twice and Watkins Glen only once (two
    weeks ago) and for some reason I like Bridgehampton more, too.  It
    could be due to turns 1, 2, 3, 8, 11 and the back straight (which isn't
    at all straight) which I find very challenging and just plain love
    them.  I think because they are all high speed turns with no banking.
    For Watkins Glen, I can only think of turn 1 that is, well, important.
    Turn 5 is also somewhat interesting.  On the other hand, I don't think
    I have got the hang of either of these tracks yet.
    
    Another turn that I like is the Diving Turn at Lime Rock Park.  If only
    we could build a track with all these turns.
    
    -=Chong=-

    Chong,
    	Poverty involves things like not having four tires with tread, and
    not being able to burn up the tread there is, not having money for gas
    to get there, having to spend the weekend splitting wood because of the
    lack of money for gas to heat the house, and other stuff like that. 
    Even in the best of times I never ran a high buck effort, and now I
    really can't afford a low buck one.  I've been offered a free midget
    ride, and could't afford the time to take it.  But maybe someday.
    					John
    

    Come on John, If I can afford to sponser a 4X4 puller, keep a daughter
    in McGill U., another teenage daughter at home, four cars, a motorhome 
    and two morgages, you can afford the gas to drive to the Bridge and flip
    your car like Bob Valsak did. (btw, Bob is the one that flipped his 85
    Mustang at the Bridge)
    
    lots of :-)'s
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

    Jim,
    	Maybe I could sell the dozeer, or figure out some way to make money
    with it on weekends?
    	As far a flipping a Bridghampton is concerned, I've done it twice
    at turn 9.  It is possible that I've done it elsewhere there, but
    things are starting to get foggy.   
    	And anyway, if you got it so easy, you can easily pay for a Formula
    Ford for me to play with (and expense money).  There might be other
    people who would contribute for the entertainment value.
    						John
    

>>    	Maybe I could sell the dozeer, or figure out some way to make money
>>      with it on weekends?

How about hanging around tollbooths and wait for people who take
too long looking for change?? :-)

Dave

I had been told that going off at Bridgehampton offered a good possibility 
of a rollover because of the terrain. That's one of the reasons I have not 
gone there yet. 

    Late last week Benetton conformed the signing of Britains Martin
    Brundle to replace Nelson Piquet in 1992.
    
    Brundle is an ex WSC Champion and a winner of the Le Mans 24hr.
    I think he may also have won the Daytona 24 as well ???
    
    He's little known Stateside but did compete in some sort of
    IROC(?) all-star type championship last season and almost won it.
    
    Dave

    re -.1
    
    Dave, yes Brundle really impressed the NASCAR drivers that he competed
    against in IROC.  So much so that they punted him off the track in the
    final race to insure he wouldn't beat them for the championship. 
    Martin seemed to be a good sport about it.
    
    - Nate

    I was at Bridgehampton for a club driver's school Saturday and
    yesterday and can offer this about the condition of the track.  It has
    not degraded in the past three years.  In fact, some pavement patches
    have been added at the turn-ins, apexes, and track-outs on several of
    the corners.  However, it's still a rough, bumpy place were cars take a
    lot of stone damage from rocks, gravel, and sand thrown up by the cars
    in front.  The safety measures (i.e., almost none) seem to be in tact 
    from the Can-Am days.  Strictly from the point of view of layout, I
    prefer Bridgehampton to Lime Rock, Watkins Glen, and NHIS.
    
    Bjorn.

    Anyone know ESPN's broadcast time (EDT) for the Japanese GP?  Per On
    Track, it's live on the 19th, but no time given.

    
    The race will broadcast at midnight, Saturday night.
    
    - Nate

    It's over, and Senna is champion for the third time. And well deserved.
    Nigel was having a go at him when the brake pedel on the Williams got
    soft and caused the car to get out of shape on the fast right hander,
    with the result of Nige in the sand trap, high centered and out of the
    race. Berger was ogne by that time, about +10 sec in the lead. Senna
    proceeded to catch him up and pass him - a very commanding drive. No
    one challenged the McLarens all day. Very tactical driving by both
    McLaren men. Senna then let Berger through a few hundred yards from the
    finish to give Berger his first McLaren win. Yes, give him. It was
    clearly a gift from Senna. Still, Senna earned this championship and
    deserves it. Mansel was tough but luck and skill were in Senna's court
    this time. Senna overcame bad luck to win this title, and Nige
    certainly can look back on some of his own bad luck, but in the end,
    Senna must feel good about this one. His career record is phenomenal.
    
    Now it's on to Australia where the track and organization are very good
    though the race won't have much meaning. There are certainly some
    youngsters worth the look these days - Schumacher, Wendlinger, Zanardi.
    Now, if only some of the teams could put together a good package. I'd
    say that Jordan has been remarkable this year. The car certainly looks
    like a good p[ackage since everyone who's driven it has done well.
    
    Paul
     

.242>    It's over, and Senna is champion for the third time. And well deserved.
    
    In light of that "well deserved" comment, it shouldn't be overlooked
    that Senna also has admitted he intentionally punted Prost at the start 
    of last year's GP of Japan.
    
.242>    Nigel was having a go at him when the brake pedel on the Williams got
.242>    soft and caused the car to get out of shape on the fast right hander,
.242>    with the result of Nige in the sand trap, high centered and out of the
    
    I am less than totally convinced that Nige was the victim of a soft
    pedal.  It seemed to me when I was reviewing the videotape that the
    seperation between Senna and Mansell remained constant for the several
    frames preceding the beginning of corrective steering by Mansell,
    suggesting that there was no significant speed differential between the
    two cars.  It did seem that Nigel was closer to the right edge of the
    track than Senna, and I believe he may've put himself off by running
    his right side tires (especially the wider right rear) onto the
    curbing.  Whether this was the result of a concentration break caused
    by finding an unexpectedly soft pedal seconds earlier cannot be known,
    but I think the car could've made the corner except for running into
    the curbing.
    
    I also believe Mansell was dissembling when he was interviewed on ESPN
    and mumbled something about the pedal going down and then he just
    didn't know what happened.  When he first got out of the car he stood
    surveying the corner, obviously replaying the incident in his mind. 
    Given that he was still staying with the car as it slid sideways on the
    outer verge of the track, trying to regain control, I think that all
    the details involved were clear in his mind.  Again, maybe there was a
    momentary concentration break if the brakes were unexpectedly
    undependable, but I'm not at all sure.
    
    Also, note that the immediate suggestion of front-end aerodynamic
    washout made by the ESPN commentators is clearly not a factor, the
    onboard camera replay clearly shows Nigel giving large quantities of
    opposite lock at the beginning of the incident.  This is contrary to
    front-end losing bite, but consistent with the loss of grip at the rear
    that would occur if he nudged the curb (or, possibly, due to excessive
    speed if inadequate braking was available).
    

    What time on Wednesday morning is ESPN going to re-telecast the Japan
    GP?  3:00 am?
    
    It is not going to be all that exciting but I would still like to watch
    it.
    
    Thanks.
    
    -=Chong=-

    according to the weekly TV listing posted to the USEnet rec.autos.sport
    group, the Suzuka replay will air on ESPN from 1 to 3 PM on 10/22 !!!!
    

    Well, we won't likely learn if it was a bad brake pedal or a mistake.
    Not that it really matters much. The McLarens weere clearly dominant
    all weekend. I believe that they pulled themselves back together when
    they saw the Williams making such progress and the cars were on the
    money in Japan. It is interesting to note that their strategy was quite
    good too. Senna controlled the pace he and Mansell ran while Berger ran
    off into a pretty good lead. Then, when Mansell went off, Senna chased
    down and overtook Berger as if it were no big deal. Senna controlled
    the race with a very good car a great racecraft. Regardless of what he
    may have said in the post-race interview about past seasons, this
    season belonged to him and I believe he should be very pleased with his
    performance.
    
    I was disappointed in Mansell's off, but I do not believe that he could
    have caught (and passed) Senna and Berger. His season must be a large
    disappointment since he clearly tried so hard and the cards just didn't
    fall to him in the end. But he did prove that in a truly competitive
    car he could run with Senna, even on one of Senna's good days. Both men
    had some bad luck, but Nigel had just a bit more.
    
    So what of next year? i would guess that the Williams/McLaren battle
    will continue. I do not see Ferrari mounting much of a challenge
    without better team management and a better design team. So I think the
    championship wil shape up much the same as this year. Benetton might
    figure in, but I think they are year or so away from putting it all
    together. Jordan is still a dark horse, especially with Yamaha power,
    which may also be a year or more away from maturity. Any one else?
    
    Paul
    

    Didn't Senna pass/catch Burger by having a 3-4 second faster pit stop?
    
    jeff

>>   Didn't Senna pass/catch Burger by having a 3-4 second faster pit stop?

I thought the pass was before the pit stops. I do remember Berger pointing
Senna by when he got behind him.

    Senna got by Berger on lap 18 - they stopped for tyres a little after
    that (Berger on lap 19 and Senna on lap 21).
    
    Colin

.246>    I believe that they pulled themselves back together when
.246>    they saw the Williams making such progress and the cars were on the
.246>    money in Japan. 
    
    Of course, it is much easier to be "on the money" racing on a circuit
    owned by one of the partners in the team.
    
    I'm not sure I'd say "pulled themselves together" so much as I'd say
    they had a dominant home-field advantage.  Just MHO though.

    re.243
    
    Bruce,
    
    In your last paragraph, what do you mean by "opposite lock"?
    
    Bob

    Opposite lock is what you give when the back end of your car tries to
    overtake the front end while cornering (called oversteer) - ie you steer 
    in the direction of the skid which is in the opposite direction to the 
    corner. If you were to take a photograph of a car cornering on opposite 
    lock it would look as though it was trying to drive itself off the edge 
    of the circuit!
    
    If you want a cheap demonstration of this, buy an old VW Beetle and
    drive it round an empty carpark at full throttle in a circle while the
    road is wet. You will probably find that the rear end steps out of line
    a little...! If you are clever, you can keep it running in a very tight
    circle with the steering on FULL opposite lock....
    
    Colin (who used to race Formula Vee many years ago and knows all about
    opposite lock and oversteer :-)
    
    
    Colin

.251>                             -< definition please >-
.251>    In your last paragraph, what do you mean by "opposite lock"?
    
    Colin did a good job in .252 of explaining opposite lock, perhaps a
    concise definition would be something like:
    	the term opposite lock refers to applying steering lock (turning)
    	in a direction opposite to the direction of cornering.
    So, as Colin explained, it is the technique used to catch an incipient
    spin when the rear of the car is trying to pass the front of the car in
    a serious oversteer condition.
    
    In my previous post I mentioned it because I found it very significant
    that Mansell applied such a correction, it certainly is contrary to the
    ESPN suggestion that the front end washed out and lost grip.  It is not
    clear to me that the car would've gotten so tail-happy from the braking
    problem alleged by Nigel afterwards, although such a problem could
    certainly have been distracting enough to make him vulnerable to losing
    the car's balance.
    
    Hope the additional context helps your understanding, Bob.
    
    --bruce

    	Having read the MN and Autosport explanations as to what happened,
    including quotes from the man on board at the time, it appears that,
    for the first 8 or 9 laps, Mansell was content to shadow Senna but
    around lap 9 decided that Berger was getting away too quickly
    (remember, he would have had to catch and pass Berger as well as Senna
    - a win was the only result worth having) and radio'd his pit to say he
    was starting to push. Next time into turn 1, he braked very late and
    deep in an effort to lock onto Senna's tail and try and slipstream him
    down the next bit. This was the first time he really stood on the
    brakes and they went soft, putting him slightly deeper into the corner
    and slightly faster than he anticipated. The rest is history.
    
    	The brake problem is not a whinge, either, for both cars were
    afflicted with it again during practice and Patrese had it during the
    race, as well as trying to cope with a recalcitrant gearbox again.
    
    	Somehow, this appears to me to be what let Mansell down in the end
    ; an inability of the TEAM to solve problems that have been around a
    long time. I know it must be difficult to do mid-season with races
    every couple of weeks but this is where the sheer professionalism of
    McLaren asserts itself in their ability to hone in on defects and burn
    them away.
    
    	Even had Mansell not gone off when and where he did, I could not
    see him winning at Suzuka. The power of the Honda out of the corners
    and the straightline speed of the McLaren were far superior to the
    Williams (and then Senna went even faster to catch Berger). I think
    Mansell was right when he said that Williams and Renault had been
    marking time a bit recently and let McLaren and Honda catch up - and
    overtake!
    
    Colin

.254>    Somehow, this appears to me to be what let Mansell down in the end; 
.254>    an inability of the TEAM to solve problems that have been around a
.254>    long time. I know it must be difficult to do mid-season with races
.254>    every couple of weeks but this is where the sheer professionalism of
.254>    McLaren asserts itself in their ability to hone in on defects and burn
.254>    them away.
    
    I'd say it is where the sheer budget of McLaren asserts itself. 
    
    It's not that hard to do if you have the ability to seperate the race
    preparation from the development activities.  All that ability requires
    is a budget sufficient to field two teams (one of which never goes
    racing).  I have no doubt that this is the scope of McLaren's effort, 
    I doubt very much that either Ferrari or Williams undertake anything on
    that same scale.
    
    Another factor may be the organizational style of the teams.  One
    hurdle in approaching development in parallel with racing is that
    personnel can be a limiting resource.  A team that is organized to use
    many more or less interchangable technicians will be better able to do
    this than a team which relies upon a smaller "brain trust" or cadre of
    highly talented individuals.  I could be wrong but my impression is
    that McLaren/Honda tend more to the first style, relative to their
    competitors.  Again, I wouldn't necessarily label it "sheer
    professionalism", it's more a matter of resources (and priorities)
    being handled with a different style than by their equally professional
    competition.

    
    I guess you've got to say whatever you'd call it (resource management
    or professionalism) they've done damn well on it.
    
    I'd be suprised if Williams and Ferrari didn't ATTEMPT to test at the
    same level as McLaren. These, and Benetton, are big budget teams with
    the full support of a major manufacturer. I doubt that those sponsors
    and manufacturers would be interested in supporting a second rate team.
    
    Mark

    IN the end, one might well call it resource management, keeping in mind
    that you've got to get the resources to manage! And there is little
    doubt that McLaren (and Williams and Ferrari) have huge budgets. As for
    McLaren and Williams, the budget is a credit to their leaders, who are
    both very good at convincing people to spend money. It may not be
    "spoting" but it is the nature of the game these days. In spite of all
    the outrageous rumors, I'd guess that operating budgets of these three
    teams are pretty close.
    
    What's more interesting to me is how a team with a very large budget
    (Ligier) and one with a small budget (Jordan) can net such different
    results. I mark up the difference to - you guessed it - management.
    Eddie Jordan is very much of the Frank Williams mold to me and it shows
    in the dedication and results the team acheived. The can was very good
    and showed well in a number of drivers' hands. Ligier often didn't make
    grid. Go figure. I wonder if Prost, as team manager, would be able to
    make progress at Ligier?
    
    Paul
    

    This morning's VOGON news reports that Prost has been fired by
    Ferarri. Giani Morbidelli will take his seat for Australia. No
    word on next season...
    
    Steve

    Has anyone heard if Prost will get another ride in Australia?

Rumor on the net was that Prost had cancelled his customary hotel reservation
in Adelaide.

--PSW

    
     ANOTHER RUMOUR FLOATING ARROUND HAS PROST DRIVING FOR LIGIER IN
    AUSTRALIA. WOULDN'T THAT BE A GAS. IN THE LOCAL PAPERS THEY ARE 
    SAYING THAT PROST WILL SIGN WITH LIGIER TO BE THE TEAM MANAGER/DIRECTOR
    THEY ARE ALSO SAYING THAT IT'S ALMOST A DONE DEAL THAT MICHEAL ANDRETTI
    WILL BE IN THE FERRARI NEXT YEAR. THEY GO ON TO STATE THAT ANDRETTI HAS
    SIGNED WITH NEWMAN-HAAS RACING FOR NEXT YEAR, BUT THERE IS AN OPTION
    THAT ALLOWS SOMEONE ELSE TO BUY OUT THE CONTRACT....HMM I WONDER WHY?
    
      

    In this morning's USA Today there was an article that said Prost is
    having his attorneys look into possible legal action against Ferrari.
    
    Too bad there is such acrimony there.
    
    The real way for him to get even is to take Ligier or some other team
    past Ferrari in the next few years.
    
    Bob J.

    My latest weekly Motoring News paper (no names!) suggests that the
    Prost Ligier link may not happen (ie for Prost to drive the Ligier next
    year). I can't see him working miracles with a car that is so obviously
    uncompetitive  - he is still motivated to race but only at the top with
    a chance of success. A third-rate Ferrari woulk kill a top-rate Ligier.
    
    Managing the team may be a different challenge and one I would imagine
    Prost would go for - if he can't find an alternative competitive drive.
    What about Jordan then...?
    
    I can't see the Andretti deal coming off either - there were long
    discussions on this a whiloe ago but it did not seem to gel. Not that
    that rules it out completely but *I* don't think it will happen.
    
    Colin

    Does anyone know the air time for ESPN's Australia coverage, which tape
    delayed to some time Sunday?

    The race airs at 1PM EST Sunday, on tape.
    
    I don't think Andrestti will do to Ferrari either, but you never know.
    In many ways, it would be good - for CART. There would be a good seat
    open and the driver line up might see some good movements. There's no
    shortage of talent out there to fill the seat. There are a number of
    good drivers looking for work and the only thing that tends to keep
    them out of CART is personal sponsorship. It's expected these days that
    the driver bring considerable $$$'s to the game - I hear somewhere
    around $2M+ for anything approaching a competitive ride. This might not
    be true on Newman/Haas since their sponsors might well be lined up for
    next year. Question might be how much Haas wants for Michael's paper.
    
    Paul

    
    - flame on -
    
    If a driver wants to win a world championship he has to race a
    McClaren, or perhaps a Williams (well, OK, a Honda powered car).
    Ferrari would rather **** their drivers over than see them win races.
    Until they become a "team" they will continue to be also-rans.  The
    success they have had has been in spite of themselves.
    
    - flame off -
    
    - Nate

    re. .266
    
    You're right. It's called Ferrari politics. McLaren (BTW, note the
    spelling) has the organization, as does Williams, that is run by one
    man - a dictator. He may be benign, as in the case of Frank Williams,
    but he is a dictator. And it causes the team to focus. Ferrari has a 35
    year history of flirting with success then messing with the team,
    especially the drivers, and losing focus. Look at all the great drivers
    who went to Ferrari, had some success (if they were lucky) then left in
    dismay and often bitterness - Phil Hill, John Surtees, Niki Lauda,
    Giles Villeneuve, Mansell, Prost, etc etc etc. Consider that they
    haven't had a world champ since Scheckter in 1979!
    
    Nate, flame or no, I agree. I don't think Ferrari will ever achieve the
    kind of success we've seen from McLaren and Williams until the politics 
    are done away with. Fat chance. It's really a shame.
    
    Paul
    

.263>    My latest weekly Motoring News paper (no names!) suggests that the
.263>    Prost Ligier link may not happen (ie for Prost to drive the Ligier next
.263>    year). I can't see him working miracles with a car that is so obviously
.263>    uncompetitive  - he is still motivated to race but only at the top with
.263>    a chance of success. A third-rate Ferrari woulk kill a top-rate Ligier.
    
    but then there's this, posted on the USEnet newsgroup rec.autos.sport:
    
    >From: [email protected] (Eric Jacquier (PhD student))
    >Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
    >Subject: PROST to LIGIER
    >Date: Thu, 31 Oct 91 12:02:44 GMT-0:10
    >Sender: [email protected] (NewsMistress)
    >Organization: University of Chicago
    >Lines: 18
    
    >Hi,
    >
    >Heard on Radio France International, Wednesday night EST (USA east
    >coast).
    >
    >1) Prost said that he is suing Ferrari for breach of contract. Matter
    >   in the hands of lawyers. He also said that he is "relieved" that
    >this
    >   uncomfortable period is over.  (Or something to that effect ..)
    >
    >2) Radio France gave a LONG interview of Guy LIGIER. He praises Alain's
    >    qualities  as a "metteur au point", pilot, etc... It's quite open
    >and non subtle. Basically Alain Prost can start drivinf and working
    >tomorrow if he wishes, there is nothing that Ligier would like more.
    >In the interview, there were strong hints that Renault strongly
    >supports this as well.
    
    So, sounds more likely that there is some fire as well as smoke blowing
    around the Ligier connection.
    
    Keep in mind that Ligier and Prost both have ties into the highest
    levels of French politics.  Add the generally nationalistic climate
    around that part of the world, it's hard to see it as unlikely.
    
    --bruce

For anyone who missed the race, you didn't miss the race. It was 
red-flagged after 16 laps due to VERY heavy rain. I think they awarded 
1/2 points.

1- Senna
2- Mansell - crashed just before the red flag. scoring reverted to 
	previous lap
3- Berger
    .
    .
6- Morbidelli - Alesi crashed out of 6th several laps earlier.

Well, the race was quite the letdown. It's always nice to see a race
where the championship pressures are off. I've tried to race in some
pretty heavy rain and you don't feel safe. Driving with your foot on
the floor at 100+ mph when you can't see 50 feet (or the next flag
station) is a pretty uncomfortable feeling. The same goes for feeling
the car get loose in the middle of a straight. 

How did everyone miss Mansell going straight off behind Senna? You 
could see Senna comming onto the straight and Mansell just going 
straight through the turn.

    It sounds like Guy Ligier is wooing Prost. Guy and his team have
    everything to gain from this. As Mr. Dawson points out, if Prost really
    would like to win more races and another championship, he can't do it
    at Ligier. Not in 92. Probably not in 93. I think that Prost may start
    his next career with Ligier, but it seems that he isn't ready for that
    just yet.
    
    As noted in CARS_UK, the Australia race was a mess. Anyone here have
    any comments on how to handle weather delays? I'd like to see them be
    able to run the event on the following day, or weekend. Or something.
    Any ideas?
    
    Paul
     

I watched some of the Aust. race and frankly I was appalled by the race
officials letting it run as long as they did.  Cars and emergency vehicles 
strewn about the track especially that one straight section.  After all the 
noise I have heard about F1 safety standards I was shocked to see such a total
disregard for driver and worker safety.  That race probably should never have
been started.

Jilly

    	Did you see Mauricio Gugelmin, who was chasing Modena's Tyrrell at
    the time, spin off INTO the pit road and hit the inside of the pitlane
    barrier, almost vaulting back onto the track?? Two marshalls were
    slightly injured but it could have been a *lot* worse.
    
    	There is severe criticism of Schenken and Bruynserade for :
    	a) letting the race start in the first place and
    	b) not stopping it sooner
    
    	The drivers, apparently led by Senna and Berger, are calling for a
    stronger voice in safety matters - something like the F1 Drivers
    Association of several years ago. I wonder how far they will get...
    
    Colin

    
    I was watching Inside Track yesterday (for anyone without an Astra
    satellite receiver, this is a programme which covers each GP in depth
    with highlights of practice and driver/team interviews as well as
    race highlights) and in one scene Patrese was seen arguing with Money
    Grabber Ecclestone. Ecclestone was obviously telling Patrese to stop
    complaining about the terrible conditions and go out and earn Bernie
    some more money (he being so short on cash) - Well, ok, I don't know
    quite what was being said, but it was obviously along those lines.
    
    Ecclestone has been fairly low profile recently, but that short scene
    convinced me that he is worthy of any contempt that can be raised
    against him. What a piece of scum.
    
    Mark

    A question for Colin Dawson:
    
    Do you know the total number of wins the top 10 F1 teams have now? I
    seem to remember Ferrari having ~100, and McLaren ~80, followed by
    Lotus, Williams, Brabham, Tyrrell. Being a statistician, I was hoping
    you might have the numbers handy.
    
    Paul
    

    Paul,
    
    	I have a list of manufacturer's wins which came from Dave Burden ; the 
    only problem I have is that I didn't note exactly at which point this
    cut off (the mail was dated 30th May 1991 and could have been up until
    the end of last season or included the first four races of this
    season!).
    
    	I will try and clarify this with Dave but here is the full list of
    manufacturer's wins up until the end of the 1991 season (from 1950) :
    
    Ferrari		98
    McLaren		94 (or 98!)
    Lotus		79
    Williams		51
    Brabham		35
    Tyrrell		23
    BRM			17
    Cooper		16
    Renault 		15
    Alfa Romeo	}	10
    Maserati	}	
    Mercedes	}	 9
    Vanwall	}
    Matra	}
    Ligier		 6
    Lancia	}
    Benetton	}	 5
    March	}
    Wolf	}	 3
    Honda	}
    Talbot	}	 2
    Porsche	}
    Eagle	}
    Hesketh	}	 1
    Penske	}
    Shadow	}
    
    	Hope this is what you wanted.
    
    Colin

    Colin,
    
    Thanks. This is what I was looking for. I thought I had seen something
    about "Ferrari's 100th win" somewhere, but I must have been predicting
    it in my mind! What's interesting about this list is how close McLaren
    is to being No 1. I knew they were getting close. And, of course,
    Williams position is almost entirely from the efforts during the 80's
    and 90's. As you go down the list you see how few teams have added to
    their totals in the last decade or so. It's especially sad to see
    glorious names like Lotus and Brabham with poor showings in the last
    few years. But that's sport.
    
    It appears that McLaren will be become the winningest team ever some
    time in '92. At this time, I do not see Ferrari adding much (or at all)
    to their total - too much politics. I would expect Williams to add to
    theirs, and would love to see Jordan join the list.
    
    Thanks for the updated list.
    
    

Below is a comprehensive look at modern (1950-present) F1 history.
What you have are ALL the winners organized in one easy chart.
Thanks to Colin Dawson for the statistics. For all you stat lovers 
this is great stuff.


Constructors wins and titles

Paul,

	My poor attempt at replying to your query has prompted me to spend
a little time during lunch to munge together a proper constructor's wins
and titles chart - attached fyi.

	I tried to reply it into the conference but it wouldn't let me -
perhaps you could do this for me as next reply in topic 790 of RACERS??

	As you say, it makes interesting reading, particularly to see how
McLaren have totally dominated the sheets in recent years!!! Also to see
how what (from memory) were "successful" teams (such as Eagle, Shadow, and
March) were relatively unsuccessful, at least as far as sheers wins were
concerned.

	Happy browsing!!

Best regards,

	Coliln


CONSTRUCTERS.TXT

		50   51   52   53   54   55   56   57   58   59   50s	#Ch
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferrari		      3	   7    7    2	  1		 2    2	  24
Alfa-Romeo	 6    4						  10
Maserati		        1    2	       2    4		   9
Mercedes			     4	  5			   9
Vanwall						    3	 6*	   9	1
Cooper							 2    5*   7	1
Lancia					       5		   5
BRM							      1	   1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS		 6    7    7    8    8    6    7    7   10    8    74	2




		60   61   62   63   64   65   66   67   68   69   60s	#Ch
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lotus		 2    3    3    7*   3    6*   1    4    5*   2   36	3
Ferrari		 1    5*        1    3*	       2	 1	  13	2
Brabham				     2	       4*   4*	      2   12	2
BRM			   4*   2    2    3    1		  12	1
Cooper		 6*	   1		       1    1		   9	1
Matra							 3    6*   9	1
McLaren							 3    1    4
Honda					  1		 1	   2
Porsche			   1					   1
Eagle						    1		   1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS		 9    8    9   10   10	 10    9   11   12   11   99   10




		70   71   72   73   74   75   76   77   78   79   70s	#Ch
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferrari		 4    2    1	     3    6*   6*   4*   5    6*  37	4
Lotus		 6*	   5*   7*   3	       1    5    8*	  35	4
Tyrrell		      7*   4    5    2    1    1         1	  21	1
McLaren			   1    3    4*   3    6    3		  20	1
Brabham		 1		     3    2		 2	   8
Williams						      5	   5
BRM		 1    2    1					   4
Ligier						    1	      3	   4
March		 1			  1    1		   3
Wolf						    3		   3
Hesketh					  1			   1
Penske					       1		   1
Shadow						    1		   1
Renault							      1	   1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS		13   11   12   15   15   14   16   17   16   15  144   10



		80   81   82   83   84   85   86   87   88   89   80s	#Ch
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
McLaren		      1    4    1   12*   6*   4    3	15*  10*  56	4
Williams	 6*   4*   1    1    1    4    9*   9*	      2   37	4
Ferrari		      2    3*   4*   1    2	    2    1    3   18	2
Brabham		 3    3    2	4    2    1			  15
Renault		 3    3    4    4				  14
Lotus			   1		  3    2    2		   8
Tyrrell			   1    1				   2
Ligier		 2						   2
Benetton				       1	      1    2
Talbot		      2						   2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS		14   15   16   15   16   16   16   16   16   16  156    10



		90   91   92   93   94   95   96   97   98   99   90s	#Ch
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferrari		 6
McLaren		 6*   8*						 2
Lotus	
Williams	 2    7
Brabham	
Tyrrell	
BRM	
Ligier	
Benetton	 2    1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS		16   16						  32	 2


		50s	60s	70s	80s	90s	      TOTAL	#CH
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferrari		24	13	37	18	 6		98	 8
McLaren			 4	20	56	14		94	 7
Lotus			36	35	 8			79	 7
Williams			 5	37	 9		51	 4
Brabham			12	 8	15			35	 2
Tyrrell				21	 2			23	 1
BRM		 1	12	 4				17	 1
Cooper		 7	 9					16	 2
Renault				 1	14			15	 -
Alfa-Romeo	10						10	 -
Maserati	 9						 9	 -
Mercedes	 9						 9	 -
Vanwall		 9						 9	 1
Matra			 9					 9	 1
Ligier				 4	 2			 6	 -
Lancia		 5						 5	 -
Benetton				 2	 3		 5	 -
March				 3				 3	 -
Wolf				 3				 3	 -
Honda			 2					 2	 -
Talbot					 2			 2	 -
Porsche			 1					 1	 -
Eagle			 1					 1	 -
Hesketh				 1				 1	 -
Penske				 1				 1	 -
Shadow				 1				 1	 -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS		74	99     144     156	32	       505      34


CONSTRUCTORS' TITLES
--------------------

1958	Vanwall		GB
1959	Cooper-Climax	GB
1960	Cooper-Climax	GB
1961	Ferrari		IT
1962	BRM		GB
1963	Lotus-Climax	GB
1964	Ferrari		IT
1965	Lotus-Climax	GB
1966	Brabham-Repco	AU
1967	Brabham-Repco	AU
1968	Lotus-Ford	GB
1969	Matra-Ford	FR
1970	Lotus-Ford	GB
1971	Tyrrell-Ford	GB
1972	Lotus-Ford	GB
1973	Lotus-Ford	GB
1974	McLaren-Ford	GB
1975	Ferrari		IT
1976	Ferrari		IT
1977	Ferrari		IT
1978	Lotus-Ford	GB
1979	Ferrari		IT
1980	Williams-Ford	GB
1981	Williams-Ford	GB
1982	Ferrari		IT
1983	Ferrari		IT
1984	McLaren-Ford(?)	GB
1985	McLaren-TAG	GB
1986	Williams-Honda	GB
1987	Williams-Honda	GB
1988	McLaren-Honda	GB
1989	McLaren-Honda	GB
1990	McLaren-Honda	GB
1991	McLaren-Honda	GB

      
    
        DOES ANYONE CARE THAT FERRARI SIGNED IVAN CAPELLI FOR NEXT SEASON.
     I AM SURPRISED NO ONE ENTERED THIS NEWS A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO. I HOPE
     FERRARI CAN PRODUCE A COMPETITIVE CAR FOR THEIR DRIVERS. IT SHOULD
     BE EXCITING TO WATCH ALESI & CAPELLI SHOULD THEY HAVE THE MACHINERY
     TO MATCH THEIR SKILL.

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
================================================================================
Note 1557.163                Formula 1: 1992 Season                   163 of 163
VOGON::DAWSON "Turn ignition on - Turn brain off!"   25 lines  14-JAN-1992 08:26
                            -< Piquet is a gonner! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nelson Piquet officially announced his retirement from Formula One
    motor racing today, citing "lack of opportunity to win the World
    Championship" as the reason. Who's leg does he think he is pulling??
    
    Piquet is a three-times World Champion : 1981 and 1983 in
    Brabham-Cosworths and 1987 in a Williams-Honda. However, just to put
    this in perspective a little, in '81 he beat Reutemann by a single
    point (and Prost also had three wins), in '83 he beat Prost by 2 points
    (taking three wins to Prost's four and Arnoux's three) and in '87, of
    course, he beat Mansell by 12 points after the Brit did not start the
    last two events of the year following his Suzuka practice shunt
    (winning three races to Mansell's six).
    
    In my opinion, although a three-times Champ., he is a "worthy" and not
    a "great" and has had a certain amount of good fortune in being in the
    right place at the right time. For the last four seasons, his
    performance, except for one or two occasions, has been decidedly
    lack-lustre.
    
    I, for one, be not be sorry to see him go, much preferring the youth
    and aggression of a Schumacker, Wendlinger, Hakinnen or Herbert, to
    name but a few.
    
    Colin
    

    Moderator, how about starting the 199TWO F1 note.  
    
    thanks,
    jeff
    

Just a nit, but his '83 championship was in a Brabham BMW, the 
first of the turbo engines to win a championship.

Whatever you want to say about how he won his championships, I 
always liked his style and sense of humor (he could shut John 
Bisignano up good, which remains forever to his credit).

=Lil

    Winning a championship by a point or 2 points is irrelevent. It's whose
    name goes into the recordbooks and it was NP. Thats the bottom line and
    all that really counts. Saying that he had a little bit of luck is not
    the case IMO. He finished and scored more points and won, hence
    championship.
    
    
    I always hear about guys that could have or might have. Sometimes I
    have people tell me that they were the fastest guy in practice and win
    the pole for the last 3 events, but had 2 dnf's and a 7th place. 
    Whats that tell me ? B.S.walks and perfomance talks.
    
    Mike
    

    	My point being that he is good - no doubt about it - but not great
    and I, for one, will not be sorry to see an also-ran walk. His
    performances in the Benetton sometimes have made me weep - hurrah for
    the Schumackers of this world, and let's hope we wee more of them now
    Piquet has gone.
    
    Colin