Conference terri::cars_uk

   In April PSA will start mass producing electrically powered 205's
   and Citroen C15 vans. Cost per mile is reckoned to be about 1�p
   when recharged on off-peak electricity. 

   Congratulations Peugeot!

    
    congrastulations? perhaps.
    
    What is the range?
    
    charge time? [If less than 1 hour they could fit charging points to
    		  parking meters]
    
    top speed up a 1 in 10 hill with the charge 80% depleted? [ever follow
    		 a milk float that is near the end of its round?]
    
    /. Ian .\
    
    

   Range is about 70 miles and maximum speed about 55. Certainly enough
   for a trip to the office and back, down to the supermarket and a
   visit to the cashpoint.

   Batteries are nicads but I don't know the recharge time. There seemed
   to be a suggestion in the article that the batteries would be leased.

    

getting there, but not there yet.

Pity!

/. Ian .\

(who needs 60 miles to just get from home to office and back and doesn't relish 
doing the last uphill section to home on flat batteries).

PS: I would assume that the "maximum speed" is on fully charged batteries and
a level road -- the figure for 80% discharged batteries under adverse 
conditions is a better indicator of the total chaos these things might cause on 
the  roads if mass produced: at least Sinclair's C5 fiasco was a small enough
obstacle you could easily pass it - and he provided pedals for the driver to
help the batteries...

   But you miss the point.....the important descision *is* to mass produce
   them, then the technology will improve. 

   "Most" people who drive to work, "most" people who go shopping or
   "most" people who take the kids to school don't need a range of
   anything like 70 miles or even a speed in excess of 30mph.

   Think of the reduction in noise and pollution in the town centres if
   electric vehicles became more popular. Wouldn't that be worth a
   reduction in peformance? 

The only electric vehicle I'd like to see in town centres is the electric 
trolley bus. I'd like to see a lot of those.

Preferebly in the guise of a free park and ride service from the outskirts.

I sit and fume in too many 50+ car tailbacks caused by milk floats every day to 
relish the addition of a single under performing mobile road block to the roads.

Most people will *add* an electric commuter-skate to their existing 1.45 family
cars (or whatever the current statistic is). Since they are only viable if you 
keep them in a garage (since they have to have access to a vandal proof electric 
supply) the only consequence of these things is a large increase in the number 
of cars parked at road sides causing even more massive congrestion.

So no they shouldn't be mass produced in the vague hope that after PSA have 
tooled up for them the technology will improve and they'll tool up for new 
technology. They should be banned until reasonable technology can be found, 
except for people who can prove that

	a) they have off road parking at home with charging capability

	b) they have off road parking at work with charging capability

and	c) they are replacing an existing vehicle, not adding to one.

Both the Labour party and the Tories are threatening to tax us on "free car 
parking at work" in the future - an idea that might be teneble if the employers
were obliged to provide free charging points for commuter-floats before the
tax is charged.

/. Ian .\

re .196 

�The only electric vehicle I'd like to see in town centres is the electric 
�trolley bus. I'd like to see a lot of those.
�Preferebly in the guise of a free park and ride service from the outskirts.
�I sit and fume in too many 50+ car tailbacks caused by milk floats every day to 
�relish the addition of a single under performing mobile road block to the roads.

   Round where I live we have many 50+ car tailbacks and no electric
   milk floats..... Big busses and coaches and lorries are the main
   cause. The electric Pug will be a much better performer and much
   more nimble than any of these!

�Most people will *add* an electric commuter-skate to their existing 1.45 family
�cars (or whatever the current statistic is). Since they are only viable if you 
�keep them in a garage (since they have to have access to a vandal proof electric 
�supply) the only consequence of these things is a large increase in the number 
�of cars parked at road sides causing even more massive congrestion.

   At �8,000 few will be "adding" these to their existing family
   cars. If bought, they'll be replacements for existing vehicles.
   Surely petrol is more dangerous than electricity? Since we managed to 
   find ways of protecting petrol, I re"fuse" to believe we won't find a
   way of protecting electricity :-).

�So no they shouldn't be mass produced in the vague hope that after PSA have 
�tooled up for them the technology will improve and they'll tool up for new 
�technology. They should be banned until reasonable technology can be found, 

   Peugeot have recognised the need for improved battery technology
   hence their offer to lease the batteries. The idea being that you can
   change the battery either for just another recharged one or upgrade
   the battery as and when technology advances allow.

   In general though, I believe the technology is reasonable. It works.
   I think a technology that provides a range of 70 miles is reasonable.
   The comparative costs both to the consumer and to the environment are
   much less. I think this makes the technology even more reasonable.
   The consumers will eventually decide wether this is a viable solution. 
   My praise for Peugeot is for providing the choice. 

    
    It'll all depend how tempting the idea of electric cars is made
    to us. Personally, I wouldn't consider (eventually) the idea of
    banning fossil fuel burning vehicles from all towns unreasonable.
    
    Then everyone could have an electric vehicle for the week and a
    'real' car for long journies and weekends.
    
    Whether such a plan could ever be realistic will remain to be seen.
    
    While Peugeot's decision is laudable, I can't see it making them
    any money. They will however get a lot of publicity and hopefully
    advance the capabilities of electric propulsion.
    
   > Round where I live we have many 50+ car tailbacks and no electric
   > milk floats..... Big busses and coaches and lorries are the main
   > cause. The electric Pug will be a much better performer and much
   > more nimble than any of these!

    But if you put even 4 people in every electric Pug think how many
    more vehicles you'd be putting on the road. You might reduce pollution
    but not congestion.
    
    Mark

I think the electric Pug would be fine for my daily commute (6 miles round 
trip)! I might even be tempted to swap my GTI for one  since all I need for 
the commute is something safe which will keep me warm and dry in winter and 
preferably cool in summer.  I wouldn't add an extra electric car to the two we
have because 99% of the time one of them would be redundant, and the fun 
value's not high enough with the GTI to warrant keeping it, well not when the 
other one's a GTI too.  However the cost is the problem.  I won't spend �8000 
on any car just for a 6 mile a day ride, say 1200 miles commuting a year and I 
don't think I'd use an electric car for many other trips with the current 
technology.

Mike.

    
    3 MILES EACH WAY!!!!!
    
    Sounds like you need a Peugeot after all...
    
    A BIKE!
    
    Mark

and is better accepted than the Vauxhall attempt a couple of years
ago with their Bedford Van (The Ford Transit size one).

It flopped.

Badly.

And didn't sell.

Even though it was "perfect' for its target audience of city deliveries.

Peter.(Who remember the C5 very well, as I worked for a company that
distributed them, and was invited along to Ally Pally for the announcement.
It was one of my data entry operators who nearly killed herself
by turning one over on the first corner of the demo track!!)

    Re: .199
                                                     
>  the commute is something safe which will keep me warm and dry in winter and 
                                                 
    Thats a point, do electric cars have heaters? 
            
    I bet they would use quite a few amps to get your car warm in winter!
    
    mb

    The Peugeot electric car is to have a Diesel powered heater.
    
    Ian.

	Does this imply that all the energy is turned into motion
	and not into heat ???

	Mark

A diesel powered heater! why not go a little further and make it into a charger 
so that if you run out of go-juice you can park, turn on the diesel engine and 
get a bit more charge.

Let me try to clarify my objection: a car with a petrol engine goes on till its 
fuel runs out without loss of performance - then it stops.

An electric vehicle has a performance that degenerates continuously as the
battery discharges. I'd hazard a guess that the "70 miles range, 55 mph" 
performance means that fully charged it'll do 55, at 40 miles about 40 mph, at
50 miles 30 mph, 60 miles 20 mph, and it finally drifts to a stop on full 
throttle at about 70 miles.

Now if you tell me that it has a cut out that disables it when the available 
power reduces to the point where it can no longer do 55 (or lets be generous and
say 40 - that after all is the speed limit on many of the urban roads this 
vehicle is targetted at) and that it can still do this speed after 70 miles 
then OK. But too many commuters drive till the car is running on petrol fumes, 
and I would expect that if these became popular some - a sufficiently large to
be infuriating - number of users would insist on doing the full distance on
a charge. Especially if these are NiCad or similar batteries that have a memory
and hence have to be fully discharged before recharging, as the cost of use
would then double if you only went half way on a charge.

/. Ian .\

I imagine the diesel powered heater is a catalytic one.  These are very 
efficient and quite clean.  I think some petrol cars have petrol versions to 
give heat before the engine has warmed up.

I am considering a bike, but it does fail on the warm and dry part of the 
criteria - safety's not so good either!

Mike.

    Did anyone see the announcement on the box this morning about GM. (Yeh,
    I know, not Peugot !!)
    
    Apparently they have produced an electric car with a range of 120+
    miles, and 0-60 in about 8sec. They are considering whether it is
    viable to produce it commercially.
    
    BTW, I agree with the Colonel, the GM car will probably do 0-60 in 8sec
    at the start, and 0-60 in 8 hours after 120 miles. But things are
    obviously progressing. One day p'haps they will be viable.
    
    Colin

    From Autocar & Motor May 1989 there was an article about BMW's electric
    car project. Based on a 3 series with front wheel drive it had a
    top speed of 60mph and a range of 90 miles, by 1992 they expect
    it to have a top speed of 75mph and a range of 125 miles. A version
    of this is under test by the Nuerenburg Post Office. Electric vehicles
    are here to stay, I only wish people could let go of there affection
    for the internal combustion engine.
    
    On the subject of recharging, don't forget that in many countries
    there is enough sunlight to re-charge the vehicle during periods
    of none use with the use of solar voltaic (sp) cells.
                                                        
    As part of the electric motor it would also be possible to attach a small
    petrol/alcohol/diesel motor that turns the electric motor when the 
    vehicle is parked and allows recharging.            
    
    Go for it GM/Peugeot/BMW
    
    Jan
    
    
    

.193 says that the Peugeot uses nicad batteries.  Their discharge
characteristic is such that the level of power output is almost constant
until they are over about 85% discharged.  I do not think that a
responsible manufacturer would quote a performance figure that could only
be acheived with fully charged batteries. 

I find the idea attractive.  I have a 12-mile commute to work.  If I ever
get to the stage where Digital decides I am to have a company car it could
be that and then I would keep my own petrol-engined car for the occasional
long journey. 

jb

    All this "clean electric car" stuff sounds awfully nice, and gets  
    the Greens ever so excited but ...                                 
                                                                       
    has anyone ever thought about what the extra load would be on our  
    power stations if all transport was electric?                      
                                                                       
    It doesn't sound very efficient to me to:                          
                                                                       
    Process							       	Loss
    -------								----
    Burn oil to make steam					       	a%  
    Make steam turn turbines                                            b%  
    Make turbines generate electricity                                  c%  
    Lose energy transmitting this electricity across the country        d%  
    Lose energy charging batteries                                      e%  
    Make batteries work motors                                          f%  
    Make motors turn wheels                                             g%  
                                                                            
    Now is the efficiency of the internal combustion engine, say z%,        
    any worse than a%+b%+c%+d%+e%+f%+g% (or should they be multiplied?)?
       
    And don't start saying how "clean" electricity is, only 25% of the
    crap in the air comes from cars, the rest is from industry and POWER,
    you just move the source of the filth production from one place
    to another, and increase it tremendously!
    
    mb                                                           
                                                                 
    p.s.                                                         
                                                                 
    Of course we could always use that nice "safe" nuclear power!
    

    Don't worry about me, I'll be installing solar panels on the house
    roof to power my electric car...
    
    Jan

Re: .210

    Process							       	Loss
    -------								----
    Burn oil to make steam					       	a%  
    Make steam turn turbines                                            b%  
    Make turbines generate electricity                                  c%  
    Lose energy transmitting this electricity across the country        d%  
    Lose energy charging batteries                                      e%  
    Make batteries work motors                                          f%  
    Make motors turn wheels                                             g%  
                                                                            
Better to use efficiency rather then %loss.  If 1.0 is zero loss, 0.5 is
50% loss and 0.0 is 100% loss the figures are about:


	a+b+c	= 0.34
	d	= 0.98
	e	= 0.95
	f+g	= 0.85

Total efficiency (by multiplying all these factors together) is 0.27

Internal combustion engine overall efficiency is about 0.20 at best.

jb

    The trouble with that arguement is when you compare the internal
    combustion engine with electric, powered by Hydro-electric schemes.
    Electricity production polution =0 (except for the workers empty crisp
    packets and cars getting to work.)
    
    Carl
    
    PS. and wind,wave, etc.
    
     

	Is there anyone out there who has a manual or otherwise
	knows how to adjust the 1.9 injected engine?.

	When I took mine in for service some weeks back it returned
	to me adjusted such that the engine would stop at virtually
	every roundabout etc.. I got back to the dealer and took it
	back in for readjustment. Now, surprise surprise, it idles at 
	a ridiculously high level!.

	I could book another trip but basically this takes too long
	and I'd rather do it myself, but I just cannot find out how
	to make the adjustments - so can anyone help.

	I dare say it's the same as the other 1.9 engined Peugeots/
	Citroens.

	-John

I currently drive a 309 GTI and am having exactly the same problems with 
frequent stalling(I'm told it's the same engine as the 205 1.9 GTI).  I'm just 
about to take it for a 6,000 mile service to tune it again to stop it happening 
so I'm somewhat disheartened to hear that they couldn't fix your problem 
properly.

I would take it in again if I were you......

	The trouble is that it costs me a lot of time and effort to
	take the car in for such trivia. Furthermore I just can't locate
	any way of adjusting the thing, but I know that it simply must
	be easy really, otherwise how could a garage mechanic do it?.

	-John

    I wouldn't touch an injected engine for tuning or anything else. It
    maybe a na�ve opinion to have, and yes it probably *is* easy, but I feel 
    it is better to hand the car back to the garage so that they have no 
    come-backs if anything else goes wrong (they just seem to want any
    excuse these days).
    
    If they got it wrong then they should put it right - it's just
    unfortunate that you're losing out by having to take the car back, but
    in the long run it's probably you're best option. 
    
    
    

A friend of mine took 3 of us to the pub in his very recently aquired 205 GTi.
It had just had its first service and he gleefully told us that he could now
open it up a bit.  So he did, down the country lane we swept until we happened
upon a mini.  Change down and off we go.  Well that was the theory, what 
actually happened was that we staggered to a halt with an engine firing on less
than 4 cyclinders.  Much embarrasment.  We opened the bonnet and peered inside.
One of the (many) pipes was loose.  It was something to do with the air intake
for the injection system.  We tightened up the pipe (guess who carries a 
Swiss Army knife?) and everything rang perfectly.  The pipe contained a 
pressure sensor that was not working properly 'cos the pipe was loose. So, your
problem could be very simple after all...

Dave

    When I used to have a 205 GTI I had the old stalling problem which I
    asked the local garage to fix when it was put in for the next service. 
    Guess what their fix was - 
    
    Turn up the idle speed to 1800 rpm!  (and they had the cheek to do it
    in front of me)
    
    Rob	

    
    
    	I am having exactly the same problem on my 1.6 Gti, it either
    idles at 1500 rpm or it cuts out. to fix it you need to locate the
    'Technical term coming up here ' hexaganal bolt at the front of the
    engine and then use a special tool, a five pence peice will do ( I
    prefer a 10 pfenig piece being in Germany ) and then twist until
    desired idle speed is achieved. If you cant find the nut look in the 
    owners manual it actually tells you how to do it and where to look.
    
    Incidentaly mine started being a problem the day after a full service.
    and it cost 300 quid !
    
    Garry.
    

	Well I've finally found the adjuster and it's really easy.
	The difficult bit is locating it!. To the right of the big
	alloy manifold will be found the main butterfly valve (also
	alloy) and on top of this is a semi-circular mound - it's
	in there.

	Trouble is that the 'tunnel' points away from you and on my
	car was totally obscured by a hose couple of hoses, one of
	which comes from the oil filler. Using a wide bladed 
	screwdriver you just rotate the brass valve that's in there.
	Clockwise reduces the speed and vice versa. Mine seemed to
	be wide open, presumably because the garage didn't want it
	bouncing again.

	The reason they're prone to stalling, particularly with the
	lights etc. on, is probably because there's a fuel cutoff
	that operates on the overrun which doesn't quite come in early
	enough to recover speed when the idle is set low.

	-John

    When I had the stalling problem on my 205 GTI I gave up trying to get
    the Peugeot dealer to do something about it (their only solution seemed
    to be to turn up the idle speed).  So I took it along to a fuel
    injection/tuning garage who had a good look at it, tuned it a bit and
    its been fine now for about two years - no stalling at all.
    
    Apparently all but the major dealers haven't got the specialist
    equipment to do the job (about two years ago).
    
    Rob

    Thanks for the advice.  My 205 GTi 1.6 has been stalling for about
    2,000 miles now.  It was serviced at 17,500 miles and is still stalling
    1,500 miles later!  It only seems to do it if I stop suddenly, if
    I brake gradually, it can normally cope!
  
    I was on the verge of taking it back to the Peugeot dealer (something
    I have put off because of the time/hassle factor) but I  
    think a trip to a specialist tuning garage would be a better idea.  
                                                     
    So, anyone got any recommendations for such a garage in the Basingstoke
    area?
    
    Regards
    
    Alex_who_is_relieved_the_possible_end_to_her_troubles_are_in_Sight_!
   

    
    Phegre at Hartley Witney springs to mind.
    
    
    Mark

    
    Manx Motors (across the road from Hampshire house, behind Oxoid) are
    excellent, and take PHH/Hertz cards. I had my Astra GTE and BMW 320i
    setup there at different times. They claim to be (and seem to be) fuel
    injection specialists.
    
    David.

    Unfortunately, I have only heard bad things about Manx!  They ruined
    a friend's injection system in her Orion.  And I've heard quite
    a few other tales...just goes to show..
    
    I also wouldn't use Porterploy...but that's a different story!
    
    Thanks anyway 
    ALEX

    I too can report that 205 1.6 GTI "cuts out" after being serviced (
    18000 miles ). My driving style was criticised, since I free-wheel
    up to roundabouts. But its still happening.
                                          
    John, can I pass on .222 to a garage ? Will they understand .222
    sufficiently to do the biz ?
             
    -Shantanu                                

    My 309 GTI's going in for it's 6,000 mile service on Friday and I'm
    going to ask them to fix the cutting out problem - so I'm interested to
    see if they manage to fix it exp. after reading the last few notes.
    
    Meanwhile a quick tip which seems to work .. if you make sure that the
    rev count is down to about 1000 or below *before* dipping the clutch
    it doesn't stall.  Takes a lot of concentration and good timing
    though!!                                                          

    Embarrassed expression ... Um ... Given that I don't have the
    handbook, and given that a certain hubcap is, for reasons I don't
    care to go into , not where it should be ...
    
    How the hell do I get the plasticky object back on securely ?
    I can see how its supposed to work ...
    
    Mike Day
    
    (205CJ)
    

    I've just put a deposit on a Nov.'86 205 GTi with 29,000 on the
    clock. In brief, can anyone give me a quick run-down of the problems
    I'm likely to expect? BTW, the car had one previous owner and was
    well maintained. The car is in great condition both internally and
    externally. 
    
    Also, the present stereo is a Blaupunkt Melbourne. How difficult
    is it to replace the radio in the 205 i.e. access to wiring behind
    dash etc.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Billy

Look out for:

1.  The dashboard squeaking,
2.  The oil level getting low,
3.  Factory fitted sunroof air bladder failing,
4.  Small amount of water inside the doors,
5.  Paintwork stone-chipped and not repaired,


Regards

Steven

    
    Also, and less annoying, a "squeeky" heater, the blower fan actually,
    only noticeable at lower speeds.
    
    
    			Si

    Fortunately I don't have to worry about the dodgy sunroof. A sunroof
    usually means there isn't enough headroom for me (6'2").
    
    Anything on the stereo change?
    
    Billy

    .231�    Also, the present stereo is a Blaupunkt Melbourne. How difficult
    .231�    is it to replace the radio in the 205 i.e. access to wiring behind
    .231�    dash etc.
    
    Shouldn't be too much of a problem, but I've never had to do it meself,
    the stereo will be fitted using a DIN bracket, with little lugs that
    secure the back of the stereo to the bracket. All you have to do is
    find out how to open the dash just below the ashtray, might even just
    prize off (gently does it...)
    
    
    			Si

    Another way to get at the back of the radio is to remove the panel at
    the back of the cubby hole below the radio.  This panel clips into some
    slots at the top and bottom, carefully prise up the panel from the
    bottom (I used a small screwdriver) until it pops forward.  The wiring
    will probable be hanging just behind this panel.  This is also a
    reasonable space to put an amplifier or other gismos.
    
    Rob
    
    (I put two 25watt amps, a automatic window closer, and a central
    locking module all in this space!)

    Well, I collected the car from Dublin on Saturday. I drove about
    200 miles home (took the long way with maximum number of twisty
    roads) and I can't fault the car. I put it over a friend's pit on
    Saturday night and we noticed some oil underneath the engine. The
    probable cause was a missing circlip on the blow back pipe leading
    to the rocker cover (I think). Anyway one replaced circlip later
    we reckoned the problem was solved. The plan is now to powerhose
    the underneath of the car and monitor for any further leaks.
    
    I know this was mentioned in earlier notes but I just need to be
    sure. Is it possible to convert an '86 1.6 GTi to unleaded? What
    differences in performance, economy, etc?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Billy

    RE: .236
    
    Could you expand on this?
    I had a look for this panel but I couldn't see it!
    
    Cheers, Craig.

    Morning,
    
    In my first week of ownership of my '86 GTi I've noticed a few minor
    quirks, most of which have been dealt with previously:
    
    1) Heater squeaks for a while from rest;
    
    2) The occasional squeak from dash/seats;
    
    3) The rear wash/wipe is not continuous.
                                              
    
    Items one and two I can live with but number 3 is a nuisance. 
    
    Any feedback on the unleaded conversion?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Billy 
         

    
    
    	I had my 85 ( I think , cant remember , but its 'c' reg ) converted
    	to help save children's brains etc, when i bought it in April,
    	I have been told it a) reduces performance and b) increases consumption
    	but I a) dont drive that fast to worry about losing 0.015 sec in
    	the 0 to 60 mph time. and b) dont check . so who knows.
    
    	I have noticed a sound every now and again like pinking and
        occasionally put super in ( i'm in the GDR ) and it seems to 
    	go away.         
    
    	As for minor quirks, if you look for my earlier notes on this car
    	you will see i have had a few of them also. :-), 
    
    	Hope yours is better then mine.
    
    	also if you dont mind me asking how much was it ( you can reply in
    	mail if you want, or if some people object ) cos i am thinking of
    	selling mine soon. as the mot is due :-)))),
    
    	If any body could give me an idea what its worth I would be greatful.
        Its
    	an 85 Gti with 60k miles ( uk right hand drive and registerd 
    	it hasn't an MOT but will have before I sell, 
    	condition : Well !! , the outside and inside is very good 
    	actually but its getting tired. however it will have a full service 
    	before sale. I will also sell it to someone who HASN't been reading
    	this notes file !!!!!
    
    	Garry
    
    

    Run it on High octane unleaded - no reduction in power, no pinking.
    
    
    John

    Unfortunately SuperGreen isn't available in the Galway area (though
    hopefully I'm wrong). With unleaded approx. 10p a gallon cheaper,
    I'd much prefer if I could go green!
    
    Billy

    Has anyone ever had a fairly serious head-on collision in a GTI
    and is still driving the car after repair. Reason for asking is
    a friend smashed head-on last week and doesn't know what to do with
    the car. The insurance company will write it off but the panelbeater
    reckons he can do a near-perfect job on it. Obviously we are not
    talking 1.1 Fiestas etc. here. This car was bought for fast driving
    and I can't see the owner driving it at 55mph (Irish Max Limit)
    for too long. 
    
    The damage included both wings, bonnet, radiator, grille, bumper,
    spoiler, and most worryingly, both chassis arms are kinked adjacent
    to the suspension mountings. Apparently the panelbeater has the
    option of pulling out the bent members with a jig or fitting new
    chassis arms and valences. 
    
    The main concern is: will the car be able to perform safely at speed
    again?
    
    Any comments/2-cents-worth would be appreciated.
    
    Billy

To start with, definitley get new chassis arms.  Having them bent in the crash
and then bent back again will weaken them considerably.

From your description, that sounds the only structural damage: new panels
elsewhere shouldn't make the car unsafe at speed, provided they're fitted
properly.

Is your panelbeater a reputable chap (or chapess)?  If not, don't get him/her to
repair such a large amount of damage.  If he/she is, then take their advice on
whether to get the car repaired.  Get a second opinion too, from a specialsit
who can examine the car first hand.  In modern cars it's very hard to tell which
bits provide support and strength for which other bits!

Scott

    This sort of crash can result in hidden compression damage. e.g. I've
    heared of this putting ripples in the floor pan. 
    
    I know the chassis arms are designed to give, but that kind of stress
    must travel further back into the body shell.
    
    I would rather take the money and run!.
    
    Richard

    Ripples in the floor pan, or a bent roof - check the door gaps for
    regularity, that can tell you a lot.
    
    A badly repaired crash damaged car can be a pain to drive, pulling
    to one side, or even crabbing along (Minis !). 
    
    Paul

Make sure the chassis alignment is checked on a jig before you get it repaired,
this will show up slight defects.
Scott

My wife's GTI was severely bent by a collision with a truck about 18 months ago.
This damaged the front wings, offside chassis leg, drivers door, offside rear 
door, rear quarter panel, bonnet, valence, bumper (obviously!) and a few other
bits.  There was a slight dent in the roof by the sunroof.

The car was repaired  by VW in Newbury - this took four months elapsed time -
and there is no noticeable effect to the handling.  A chassis jig was used to
check and correct the alignment and the chassis leg was replaced.

My one complaint is that the quality of the paint is not up to the standard of
the original.  Although the colour match is excellent and the finish is OK, it
is far more prone to stone damage.  My complaints were not well received either!

If the repairer is competent (I'd use VW approved only as you get a VAG
warranty for what it's worth) then it's your choice whether to take the delay
or buy a non-crashed car.

Mike.

    
    A front-end crash _can_ be repaired properly, but I would have to feel
    fully confident that the person doing the job was going to do it
    properly, before I would be happy with the repaired vehicle.
    
    Our Maestro was repaired in Munich, (at a cost of over 10,000DM to the
    other persons insurance company) after the front end was completely
    smashed up, but before any work was done, it was fully examined by the 
    damage assessor, who gives a full written report.  

    I don't see any question here.
    
    The only thing that can remain of the car is memories.
    
    Tell your friend at least he/she still see's his/her family.
    
    It's not a game. These are killing machines. Any speed over 20mph
    and you are taking chances.
    
    Just stop and think about it.
    
    PLAY IT SAFE.
    
    Sorry to be so morbid, but i just find this incredibly silly of
    the owner thinking of having it repaired, instead of getting a new
    one.
    
    Lewis.

    Re: -1
    
    Seems a bit harsh but point taken. As I said in my original note,
    the GTI is not meant for just doing the shopping.            
    
    I forgot to mention: there's a slight ripple above teh passenger
    door and the doors don't close perfectly.
    
    From speaking to a few people in the trade myself, I felt the car
    could be repaired to a high standard. The particular panelbeater
    did some work for me last year (albeit fairly minor) but I know
    he intends to jig the car etc and pull it back to the manufacturer's
    specs. You don't find any Marina's, Cortinas, etc in this guy's
    yard - Only new models. He's definitely good.
    
    I've heard plenty from people who haven't driven a repaired performance
    car but only one note from someone who has. Does anyone else have
    any comments. Fell free to mail me at BRADAN::BMULQUEEN  if you'd
    prefer.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Billy

    Why not re-shell it, or is this not economical ???

    I used to work with a chap whose brother used to buy, repair and
    sell "damaged" cars. With a bent body, he usually re-shelled.
    Never heard of any complaints about the ones he didn't re-shell
    though: this included one 928s which was badly damaged but still
    cost #20K to buy, #10K for parts and resold for #40K after four
    months hard work.

    If the job is done "properly" no worry. But who would be prepaired
    to take the risk ...

  Mark

    I had a word with another friend of mine in the trade who does a
    small amount of panelbeating himself. From describing where the
    chassis damage was (i.e. beside the suspension mountings) he reckoned
    there shouldn't be any effect on the handling. If the damage was
    behind the bulkhead, it would be a different story.
    
    Any performance car drivers out there who've been in a similar
    predicament?
    
    Billy

    But if the doors don't shut properly, then surely there is damage
    behind the bulkhead. The whole body forms part of the chassis, so
    if the doors don't fit, the roof or floor line is kinked, and the
    front to rear geometry is affected.

  Mark

    Also I'd be surprised if he could re-jig it as accurately as the
    manufactureres agents could!.
    
    Richard

    As an aside, the car in question is a 1.6 (105bhp). Does the 1.9
    use the same chassis or is it reinforced to cope with the extra
    power?
    
    Billy

    205. The car of the decade?
    
    I think so. Just drove my friends b reg 1.6 gti.
    
    All i can say is "I'm impressed".

    FYI:

    I have now been running my G-reg 205 Gti 1.9 litre on Super Unleaded
    for approximately 1000 miles.  I have not found any difference in
    performance or speed.


    Steven

    P.S.  I'd still rather be skiing !

	Quite suddenly my 1.9 Gti started to produce a great deal of
	noise from the brakes. It sounded very much as if the pads were
	completely worn out or that a stone had become jammed in there
	somehow. The brake pad warning indicators weren't showing but
	then you can't always trust those things. It was just a noise really 
	the brakes still worked fine without pulling etc.

	I decided that immediate investigation was the order or the day
	and proceeded to remove all of the wheels and inspect the pads/discs.
	No apparent problem!. Plenty of meat left on the pads, discs smoothly
	worn. I checked the warning lights by simulating a fault and they
	worked, also I cleaned out the 'anti-squeal' grooves in the pads.
	Having inspected everything I tried it again - just the same - nasty
	grinding sound on light/medium braking.

	Well it's booked in the garage on Thursday for service. Now since I
	pay the bills I'm not terribly inclined to have them change
	everything in sight without due reason. Has anybody any experience/
	ideas on this?.

	Mileage is now 19,000, but the brakes have had it easyish since most
	has been on Motorways. When I say the brakes are noisy I really
	mean noisy. Not to be confused with the 'normal' noise from 1.9
	brakes which is a feature.

	-John

    
    I used to get a similar problem on a 911, seem to remember that a few
    panic stops used to get rid of it.
    
    Another thought, are you sure the covers behind the brakes is not
    rubbing?

    Try looking at the disc guards, if they have got a bit bent, then they
    wmay touch the disc when braking ( flexing maybe?)

	.-1.-2 are I suppose possibilities but you'd expect a noise even
	with the brakes off under such circumstances.

	-John

    I currently find the same problem on my 1.6 GTi. Again it is only
    noticeable while braking at lower speeds and only seems to affect
    the rear offside wheel. Haven't got around to checking it out as
    it doesn't appear to affect the car's braking ability. However it's
    still annoying.
    
    Billy 
                                     
    
    

I also get this problem on my R5GTT. I told a friend who has a Renault 11
Turbo, and he said it was because the pads are "hard".

	Yes, the pads are hard. In fact I wonder whether it's the discs
	or the pads that are meant to wear away!. But still this is too
	noisy for that to be the reason. Of course you can hear the brakes
	on the Gtis as of normal and some people think it's a fault.

	Small car, large brakes, hard pads, hollow echo-ey ventilated discs
	do tend to add up to noise. I'll see what they say tomorrow.

	-John

    Another little problem. After a long period in slow moving
    traffic, clouds of smoke from nearside front bonnet accompanied
    by electrical-type smell .
    
    The timing was as hade unfortunate - I was attending a burial ...
    
    However, for future sufferers, unpanic. There is a temperature
    sensor at the back of the radiator. Said sensor has a plastic
    connector/shield. Said shield gets hot. Very hot. Sometimes
    it melts. Mine did.
    
    
    Well known joke apparently, but not a problem.
    
    
    Mike Day
    

    	Well, the garage didn't do much more than take the pads out, clean
    	the dust away etc. and put it back together. They then said that
    	there wasn't a problem. I wasn't so sure but they didn't charge
    	much either.
    
    	The brakes were still noisy when I took it away, but strangely
    	things are now getting better. Over the long weekend the level
    	of noise has decreased considerably and sometimes there isn't any.
    	I hope it continues like this.
    
    	-John 

    
    Well I have finally done it !!, I have just ordered white PUG 205 1.6 GTI. 
    Although  I haven't been able  to test drive  one, this note has convinced
    me that this is the car for me. One question, I have ordered it with
    power assisted steering (after reading a lot of notes complaining about
    heavy steering) , has anybody got a 205 with this fitted? if so what
    is it like? Just hours after sending the order form I read a note about
    power assisted steering on a GOLF GTI were somebody said it was LEATHAL
    because it is not speed controlled. Has someone got any input on this?
    
    Jeff  
    
    who-has-just-ordered-a-205GTI-and-he-knows-he-shouldn't-have-
    got-it-with-power-assisted-steering     
    
    

    Jeff,
    
    As long as you don't go *crazy* (like all other PUG GTI drivers
    i see ;-)) then i don't think it should be a problem.
    
    Lewis.
    
    PS. You'll be glad when you're parking. These small hot hatches
    are $%^&#$^s to park!

    My husband has a 309 with PAS, and compared to my 205GTi 1.6, it
    is absolutely wonderful to drive.  You don't really notice it while
    you are driving along until you need it.  Parking is an absolute
    doddle!
    
    Regards
    ALEX

    Real men don't neeed power steering !!! ;^)

    
    ..as a proud new keeper of a lovely little "hot hatch"...I don't find
    it at all difficult to park, and not *that* heavy doing tight slow
    manoeuvres...even with the low profile wide tyres on it...
    
    but then the nova may well be lighter than the 205 :-)

>    < Note 35.271 by SHAPES::GALVINS "Don't worry, ski happy" >

>    Real men don't neeed power steering !!! ;^)


    Real men don't need to turn eh? ;-)
    
    Sorry, cross referenced with EURO_SKIING. Couldn't resist, eh Tony
    ;-)
    
    Lewis.

    Turns are for cissies !

    The real way to turn is with left and right brake pedals.
    
    Jeff.

	I think that a good speed sensitive power steering would be 
	a good thing on the Gti version 205s. The combination of large
	heavy engine and fat tyres does make it heavy. This is most
	noticeable to me taking corners quickly when it takes a good
	deal of effort to maintain the right line. On the other hand
	you can argue that this is a good thing since it makes you
	aware of the work being done by the tyres. I would choose to
	have it. When I got mine it wasn't available though.

	My brakes have now returned to their normal quiet state. Peering
	through the wheel I'm suspicious that I received a set of new pads
	at the service (which wasn't charged for!) but can't be sure without
	taking the wheel off.

	-John

>>       <<< Note 35.276 by VANILA::LINCOLN "The sun has got his hat on" >>>

>>	My brakes have now returned to their normal quiet state. Peering
>>	through the wheel I'm suspicious that I received a set of new pads
>>	at the service (which wasn't charged for!) but can't be sure without
>>	taking the wheel off.

    IMPOSSIBLE, miracles don't happen, it's not Christmas, and renault
    garages are not good fairies!
    
    Must be as trick of the light! :-)
    Richard

	I will make a point of checking!. By the way I take it to
	the Peugeot garage. If you go to the Renault Garage in Newbury
	your car gets stolen apparently!.

	-John

    My 1.9 GTI is about to go back to PHH, after nearly 50,000 miles. 
    Since I had it, it has had the following problems:-
    
    - Rattly sunroof fixed at 6,000 miles
    - Faulty boot lock
    - Air pipe disconnected from injection unit at 40,000 miles - fixed free 
      by Reading Toyota
    - Intermittent rattle from one front speaker
    - Brake pipe damaged by rock kicked up under the car
    - 2 punctures
    - 2 lights broken by stones
    - Its also been hit twice by other cars whilst parked on Digital
      Premises.
    - (cant think of anything else at the moment)
    
    All in all, I dont think thats too bad a record at all.  I've always
    enjoyed driving it, its been fast, practical and fun.  Its just as
    quick now as it was at 5,000 miles (the benefit of a big engine), in
    fact the indicated top speed is now a couple of MPH higher than when I
    "tested" it at about 15,000 miles.  I averaged 18,000 miles per set of
    front P600's, so the car had 6 new tyres altogether.  The poise and
    handling of the car are definately its strongest points, I have to be
    feeling very brave to even approach the limits in the dry.
    
    It's probably not the best car in the world for 5-600 miles a day, but
    I dont do that many miles in a day too often, so I havent worried.  The
    only things I would criticise are the design of the sunroof, the poor
    positioning of the Stereo and the reaction it sometimes produces from
    other car drivers, who should of course all be banned from the roads
    (oops wrong note).  I find the weight of the steering to be ideal at
    all speeds except when parking, when a tad of assistance might not go 
    amiss.
    
    I'll certainly miss it when it goes.
    
    
    
    John

    Under hard braking I have found that the front brakes on my '86
    1.6 GTI lock too quickly. Have others found the same characteristic
    and, if so, is there a simple fix? 
    
    Sl�inte,
    
    Billy

	Well inquisitiveness won out and I took the wheel off to have a
	look. Nowadays I don't go in for car mechanics and only took
	the trouble to inspect these pads originally in the interests of
	safety/possible imminent disc demise. Anyway guess what - old
	pads still there. Maybe a stone had got in or the pads had a
	hard lump in them that's worn through.

	I never however had any problems as described in .-1. The brakes
	are exemplary.

	-John

	PS The 205 jack is very easy to use but I wouldn't want to lean on
	the car when it's jacked up!.

>>                    <<< Note 35.281 by MACNAS::BMULQUEEN >>>
>>                                 -< Screeech! >-

>>    Under hard braking I have found that the front brakes on my '86
>>    1.6 GTI lock too quickly. Have others found the same characteristic
>>    and, if so, is there a simple fix? 
    
    Yes, give more time to slowing down and don't brake so hard!.
    
    Richard

    In my 1.9 GTi handbook it recommends 3 diffrents tyres: Michelin MXV, 
    Pirelli P600 and Goodyear NETS.  I have Michelin fitted to mine and was
    wondering if anyone has had the opportunity to compare any of these
    tyres and has any preferences to which tyre gives better roadholding/grip
    in all conditions?
    
    Regards, Craig...
    

    I found when borrowing another 1.9 with michelins that grip was not as
    good as on my P600's.  Understeer started earlier, more drifting on
    fast corners etc.
    
    
    John

    I have experience of both the Mitchelin's and the Pirelli's and I think
    the former grips better and last longer!
    
    
    Steven
    
    P.S.
    
    I think I put a note in here recently about using 'Super Unleaded'
    petrol in my 1.9.  I said that I hadn't noticed any difference.  
    
    Well... unfortunately I had to put '4 Star ' petrol in the other day
    and I have now noticed a difference.  I believe 'Super Unleaded' knocks
    at least 10mph off the top speed and adds a tad to the 0-60mph time. 
    
    But I rarely push the car anymore so I can live with it ;^)

    I had a peculiar problem with my 1.6 GTi last night and I was wondering
    if anyone has been in the same situation. 
    
    I had the engine converted to super unleaded on Tuesday. No problem!
    Afterwards I noticed the ignition light half-on. Still no problem.
    Last night I left the courtesy light on and came back 3 hours later
    to find the battery dead. The car started with a push but as soon
    as I put on teh lights it spluttered and died. This happened 4 times
    and I eventually abandoned the car. 
    
    I brought the battery to be checked out at lunchtime today and I
    was told it was just run down but otherwise perfect. The fan belt
    was sufficiently taut. It certainly sounds like the car ain't charging.
    With a new battery the ignition light no longer comes on so what
    could have caused the drain in the first place i.e. before I
    accelerated the process by leaving the light on?
    
    Billy 

Sounds like the mechanic who did the unleaded conversion accidentally pulled
the leads off your alternator, or something similar.

    What exactly does a conversion to Super Unleaded involve?
    
    Ian.

    Re .288
    
    Don't you mean conversion to 'Unleaded' not 'Super Unleaded', as there
    is no adjustment nessary to run on S.U.
    
    For unleaded, its simply just a ignition timing adjustment.
    
    ..Craig

    Well if there was no change involved in converting to super unleaded
    then I've been diddled. 
    
    On the dodgy alternator, it actually needs replacing. Fortunately
    it's covered by the 3 month warrantee I got with the car when I
    bought it.
    
    Billy

    In France, every Gaz station has a catalogue listing all cars, years,
    nodels, engine types, etc... which are capable of running lead free
    gazoline without technical amendments.
    
    Basically, all post-82 models fall into this category, so I'm told.
    Furthermore, said catalogue distinguishes btw. models requiring 98
    octane and those requiring 95 octane fuel.
    
    Check if your local station has a similar catalogue.
    
    Suggestingly yours,
    
    Chris

    Chris,
    
    Without going round this loop again, although IN GENERAL modern engines
    are OK for unleaded. Some current engines are designs stretching back
    15 or 20 years. They were not designed with hardened valve seats, and
    unless the manufacturers have modified them, will not take kindly to
    running on unleaded. 
    
    One of the reasons the new rover metro (100) finally gets a new engine:
    the old A series engine is probably 30 years old, and could not run on
    unleaded.
    
    The sort of brochure you are referring to is widely available over in
    the UK, but is put out by the petrol manufacturers. Several noters of
    this conference have tried checking with the CAR manufacturers and even
    they give conflicting advice (see the R5 saga).
    
    Richard

	Peugeot dealers have a leaflet for all of theirs which you
	can pick up.

	-John (who converted to super unleaded by filling up with it)

   Re .292
    
   >> Well if there was no change involved in converting to super unleaded
   >> then I've been diddled. 
    
    All 1.6 GTIs can run on Super Unleaded (97 RON) without adjustment, for
    Unleaded (95 RON) a free-of-charge conversion can be obtained at your
    local dealer during a routine service. 
    
    
    ..Craig

Just got myself a 1.9 Pug, and am really pleased with it. Absolutely fantastic
to drive, and LOADS of power on tap.

I've got one niggly problem with the infamous heating system. Even with the fan
control as low as it will go, the fan still runs !! (albeit slowly). This is
only noticable because the damn thing squeaks. Any ideas what to do about it. (I
thought of oiling it, but can't seem to get at it without dismantling the whole
car)

Cheers

Woz

    
    
    	You must have the 'old' version with the levers for the fan have
    you, because i thought they fixed this problem with the new dial
    controls.
                                                  
    The fix is to turn the stereo up REALLY high. 

Yes, I must admit to being a lever man. I 'spose one day I'll have to get around
to having a look inside the dash.


On another point, I've noticed that one of the G reg 1.6 Pugs in DEC park has
got small(er) wheels. Has this always been the case with 1.6s, or have Peugeot
reduced the size in newer models ?

    Re -1
>>On another point, I've noticed that one of the G reg 1.6 Pugs in DEC park has
>>got small(er) wheels. Has this always been the case with 1.6s, or have Peugeot
>>reduced the size in newer models ?
    
    If you mean opposed to a 1.9 then yes, the wheels are 14" on a 1.6 and
    15" on a 1.9.....Always have been!
    
    ..Craig

    It's not too difficult to make the fan stop when the lever is at the
    bottom of its travel.  There is a strip of resistor material which a
    the contact moves up and down giving the varying speeds - this has a
    'leak' to the contact which means that there is a maximim amount of
    resistance that is always in the circuit.  If you break this 'leak'
    then the slider can drop off the bottom of the strip and the fan can 
    stop.
    
    I got fed up with mine and changed it about three years ago - the fan
    still seems to work fine, but in the way I want it to.
    
    Rob.

    re .294;
    
    Current Mini's and the later Metros with the A series engine can
    run unleaded; you can even get a cat for the mini!!!
    
    They changed the valve seals last year (autum-ish, I think).
    
    Peter		(surpised I beat Jane to this defence of the
    			 Mini!)
    

    
    didn't spot that one...
    
    yep, *ALL* 1989+ Austin Rover cars can run on unleaded...

    re .303;
    
    Exept for the petrol turbo models, 'tho...
    
    Peter.
    

    
    They run on Super unleaded though, don't they ?

    Just to let you know the PUG 205 GTI 1.6 reg G423JWO at dec-park
    is mine. You may remember that I asked about PAS in this note 
    somewhere, well I am glad to say that it is pretty good, parking 
    is a real  doddle. There are a couple of problems with the car 
    though, one that the steering wheel isn't centered and the other
    being the centralized locking, for some reason the passenger door 
    keeps locking when I turn the ignition off. I will be raising both 
    problems when I take the car in for it's first service.
    
    
    Jeff

Re. .301

O.K. but how do I get at the backs of the sliders. 

Reading the Haynes manual, it would appear that you have to dismantle the whole car
to get at them. There must be an easier way (he states hopefully).

Woz

Jam a screwdriver between the fan blades to stop them rotating.  Pull it out
when you want the fan on.

;-)

    Well, it was a few years back...
    
    I think you might have to remove the centre console to get at it all, I
    was fitting a radio and amplifiers at the time so I took it out anyway.
    
    There may be a way to remove the illumination bit of plastic and get
    directly at it, but I honestly can't remember.
    
    Rob

    
    
    Can anyone tell me what the "special edition" i've seen quoted on VTX
    offers over the normal GTI?
    
    Clare

    Anybody had any experience of removing the instrument panel. The cover
    has two holes underneath, which look like they should have screws in
    them (but don't). The Haynes manual says that you should remove the
    trapezoidal 'coin tray' on top of the panel by 'prising it up from the
    rear'. I tried to prise mine, but it felt like it was going to snap, so
    I gave up. The coin tray appears to have two holes in, which are
    conveniently facing towards the windscreen, so I can't see whats in
    them. (allen key type screws ??).
    
    Any ideas
    
    Warren_who_thinks_the_top_of_the_speedo_is_a_weird_place_for_a_coin_tray
    
    
    P.S. its an '87 1.9 GTI

	Found out what the special edition 205s are.

	1.6 and 1.9 Gtis come with all leather trim, all extras ie
	sunroof and power steering in two colours only , one being blue.
	Haven't actually seen one myself.

	Did however see a 'Roland Garrios' special edition today which
	has just come out. It's the XS 1360cc mechanics but with part 
	leather (beige) trim, sunroof, electric bits etc. Altogether a
	neat package if you happen to like dark mettalic green (which
	I don't) and want to pay the price.

	Unfortunately the gear ratios remain unchanged.

	-John

    I have a query regarding the locking plate on my steel metallic
    grey GTi. The locking plate, for those unsure of what it is, is
    the piece of metal across the front of the bonnet (above the grille)
    onto which the lock is attached.
    
    My question is: should this be painted to match the rest of the
    car or should it be left black - as it is. I know the car was once
    crashed and I'd like to have everything looking original if possible.
    
    Could someone look under their bonnet this evening?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Billy  

    Re: -1. Come on lads. All the activity in this notesfile seems to
    have shifted to the Renault 5GT Turbo note. Has nobody looked under
    the bonnet lately?
    
    Yours in a 205 every time,
                         
    Billy
    

>                    <<< Note 35.315 by MACNAS::BMULQUEEN >>>
>                           -< Help on Locking PLate >-
>
>    Re: -1. Come on lads. All the activity in this notesfile seems to
>    have shifted to the Renault 5GT Turbo note. Has nobody looked under
>    the bonnet lately?
>    
>    Yours in a 205 every time,
>                         
>    Billy

    
    
    Ok, Ok. Just been out to the carpark.
    
    Now, if you mean the plate with the hole which the pointy thing on the
    bonnet goes into, mines black (and my Pugs white).
    
    
    Woz

    Mr Mod, note 35.316 is not being written. Lost the network link and
    can't delete the note.......
    
    Was saying that I swopped the 944 for a 205 on Tuesday, and I'm
    beginning to forget how many things have fallen or broken off already.
    What a tacky little tin box, my Astra was better!

    
    
    
    
re .318
    
>    beginning to forget how many things have fallen or broken off already.
>    What a tacky little tin box, my Astra was better!
    
    
    Better at what ? Being incredibly ugly ?  Handling like a stodgy potato
    ?
    
    :-P
    
    Woz
       

Re .313 > 1.6 and 1.9 Gtis come with all leather trim, all extras ie
	> sunroof and power steering in two colours only , one being blue.


    Hmmm, never seen blue power steering before.  What colour is the other
    one?

    I have been the happy owner of a Pug 1.9 for 3.5 years now.  Unfortunaltely
    the time has come to let it go 8^(.  I will, instead, be driving the new
    alfa 33, 16V QV 8^) .  Or at least I will be in about 5 months or so 8^| .

    The only thing wrong with my Pug is the fuel guage, which has never worked.
    I gave up trying to get the garage to fix it after 6 attempts and accepted
    it as a quirk of the car.  It registers just over 1/2 full when empty.
    Lucky the fuel warning light comes on though.  Oh, and the radio/cassette
    keeps going on the blink (Philips, yuk).

    If you want a review of the new Alfa, see note 557.36.  All my own work.



GAZ

    
  >    Was saying that I swopped the 944 for a 205 on Tuesday, and I'm
  >    beginning to forget how many things have fallen or broken off already.
  >    What a tacky little tin box, my Astra was better!


Oh stop moaning Colin.  It was either the Porsche or the expensive girlfriend
that had to go 8^) .  At least the bank won't be sending Luigi and the boys
round to dance a Lambada on your nose.  Is it Zit free now?


GAZ

    Attention PUG205 1.9 & Astra 16v drivers
    
    Hi,
    any lease drivers out there of the above like to swop cars for a
    couple of days with me ? I've got a lease R5GTTurbo, silver, 6000
    miles - but would like to sample the opposition before I leave.
    
    The Renault is the most fun to drive out of all the cars I've ever
    tried, including GTi's , GTE's, Arbarths. But as yet I havn't tried
    the above, so in the interests of scientific research blah blah...
    
    in anticipation,
    Richard Porter
    Solent Business Park   (but living near Basingstoke)
    782 2691  or  Oval::porterr

    Re - 1
    
    I'd love to Richard, the only problem is I'm in Warrington!
    
    Craig

    Has this note file died?
    
    Does anyone know how much I should ask for my Pug 1.9?  It is 3.5
    years oldish, with over 100,000 km on the clock, a few little 
    scratches here and there (bit of T-cut might tidy).
    
    I am incredibly sad that I must get rid of it, but with a company
    car as well it becomes a bit of a luxury and I could use the cash.
    
    If anyone can let me know in dutch guilders, even better.  But any
    currency will at least give me an idea.
    
    8-(   Garry
    

    Re -1
    
    After a quick look in the local Auto Mart, 1.9s in the conditon you
    mentioned seem to be going for 5500-5800 pounds. - This is usually a fairly
    accurate way of determining prices..
    
    Craig

    Glad to see this note is not totally dead.
    
    Can anybody tell me what sort of MPG figures I can expect to get from 
    my soon to be delivered 205 GTi 1900.
    
    I've been led to believe that I can achieve mid 30's if I drive it
    normally.
    
    How do you drive a 205 GTi normally .???????
    
    
    Awaiting for both my 205 and any replies to this note.!

    
    I spent all weekend driving a 205 GTI with over 120,000 km on the
    clock.  Very good engine, revved up to 6000 with no problem in every
    gear.  Good handling as well.  The suspension seemd stiffer than the
    MR2.  
    
    I really enjoyed it (apart from the empty 'Yop' containers, Perrier
    cans, half empty packets of cigarettes). 
    
    Make a nice second car.
    
    	Nigel

    Re MPG
    
    If you mean a Pug 1.6, then I get around 33mpg motorway driving and
    between 28-30 urban driving..if that's any help!
    
    Regards
    Alex_losing_her_lovely_car_in_Feb_next_year_!
    

I had a 1.9 for 8 days, and managed 25-27 m.p.g. - not much better than my VW
Camper!

    
    How does 18.3 mpg sound?
    

    How the heck ??
    
    Second gear driving up and down to London and back on the M4 ????
    
    Or hole in the fuel tank ????
    
    Or a fetish for petrol draining through a straw !!!!
    
    

    
    It was easy. Just drive from Calais to Brussels like a loony in 1hr.
    
    Anyone know how much a blown rear exhaust box costs on fuel
    consumption? I'd have thought it was negligible, that far back in the
    system .....

.332�Anyone know how much a blown rear exhaust box costs on fuel
.332�consumption? I'd have thought it was negligible, that far back in the
.332�system .....

    Don't you believe it, Colin. A blown exhaust, anywhere, will cost more
    in fuel consumption.

    I was always under the impression that the length of an exhaust system
    was 'balanced' to the engine. Alter the length in any way and you effect
    the performance of the engine (by what degree, I don't know).

    Martin.

    
    If a blown exhaust is worth 2-3 mpg, then 21 mpg is still not good.
    
    Think I'll work it out again next week on the way down to Munich.

	After 25.000 miles my lowest ever was 32 mpg, once I got
	39mpg, typically it's 35mpg.

	To get under 30mpg you'd need to accelerate flat out all the
	time and run at 90mph on Mways.

	-John (1.9)

    
    I don't think Colin was doing 90mph...

I got my 26-28 mpg from Reading-Cheshire-Reading. up via 'A' roads (Evesham),
and back by the M1. I was doing 70 mph on the way up, 80 mph on the way back.
I could not believe how it went through petrol - in fact I had to limp 5 miles
to a petrol station because the level was so low that the engine was cutting
out periodically.

Steve

    
    What are you implying Nigel?
    
    Must admit though that I'm used to changing into 5th at 210 kph, which
    these little things struggle to do .....

I just had my Pug 1.9 steam cleaned (and very beautiful it is too) prior to 
selling it 8-( .  Although the engine is now beautifully clean, it seems to
be running very strangely.  It is almost as if the engine has been loosened,
because I get a sort of throaty bonking noise from it.  I don't think that it is 
particularly serious, as the noise disappears at higher speeds, but can
anyone tell me if they have experienced anything similar after steam cleaning.

I know that there is a steam clean note in this conference but I am too
lazy to look for it (^8*.

Please let me know if my engine is about to fall out!!

Garry

    >> a sort of throaty bonking noise ..
    
    Checked the back seat have we ? ...
    
    m
    

  Re: -1  Have YOU ever checked the back seat of a 205 for bonking noises?

          I don't think so somehow..  It is more likely in the front seats (^8*.


   Anyway problem is solved.  A couple of rubber rings had perished (with the
   steam cleaning presumably) and were replaced.  Now he is running like a
   dream.   Why do I have to sell it )-: )-:.

    
    Just checked again, town driving, 20.39 mpg - not very impressive is
    it?

	Well, sold my Pug on Saturday to the first person to come along.  In
	fact the papers hadn't even come out when the guy phoned to come and
	see it (hmmm spys in the office?).  It was gone by 10 AM Saturday
	morning.  Sob, sob, I didn't even get a chance to take it for a 
	final spin.

    
    Well, the legend of the 80's packed in 3 times this weekend, and I'm
    meant to be driving back to Liverpool on Wednesday night!

	Saw a book in the library called "205 Gti Enthusiasts Companion".
	Got it out and read (most) of it. Here are some points that 
	seemed interesting.

	The 205 was destined to replace the 104 and Peugeot had two aims
	
	* To spruce up the dowdy image of the company.
	* To make the car big enough to take a diesel engine, since the
	104 couldn't/didn't have one and the market said it wanted diesels.

	This latter point will later be seen to be of more significance
	than at first sight.

	At the time new mid sized engines were being developed too, being
	basically a 1.6 litre, and a larger diesel 17** ?.  Obviously
	the 205 would have them as well as the older smaller units, if
	only for a diesel version.

	The styling was a joint effort between Peugeot and Pininfaria
	not as seems to be generally assumed all Pininfarina.

	At one time it was intended to build the new car on the 104
	base but this was dropped in favour of a completely new design.
	So it appeared, and to enhance the image a GT version was
	produced based on the old 1360 engine.

	Then on to the Gti using the 1600 engine. Originally this was
	in 105bhp form, but in the interests of 'image' this was soon
	reworked to 115bhp. This was not a great success, other than
	to improve the advertised image. Independant road tests showed
	that the new engine was certainly no better and possibly worse
	in accelleration than the old. The extra power was only seen
	at 6000rpm+ and the bottom end torque/smooth running had been
	somewhat sacrificed in the process. All, apparently you really
	get is an extra 3mph top speed, pretty irrelevant if you ask me.

	The engine however had been developed to have a diesel
	version too and this meant that the crankcase could take a 
	greater throw than 1600. In the diesel version the block is
	cast iron, but it was a fairly simple matter of fitting a
	stroked out crank with the alloy block to produce the 1905 cc
	engine, first used in other cars.

	The 1.9 engine is most unusual since it's a long stroke engine
	(ie stroke is greater than bore), and such designs are very rare
	nowadays. The 1600 is of course short stroke but the enlargement
	takes it out to undersquare. Whilst long stroke engines aren't
	the best way to get ultimate power they are good for torque.
	Hence the 1.9 produces a lot more torque than the 1.6 and over
	a larger range. Between 2200 and 6000 rpm there is 10% more
	available than the peak 1.6 torque!.

	Now on to my favourite subject the gears. Since the car was to
	enhance the image everything had to be done to eek up the 
	performance figures, hence the gear ratios would be 100% for
	performance. In fact both models are undergeared, ie max speed
	occurs above max power. After reading various bits of info
	and putting it together this appears to be what happened.

	For the 1.6 the 'standard' box had it's upper ratios lowered
	and an appropriate final drive fitted. Then when the 1.9
	arrived they were worried about the peak torque loading on
	the driveshafts and raised the lower ratios. This perhaps
	accounts for the fact that people like me tend to think it's
	got two seconds and three thirds, rather than five speeds,
	particularly when the torque characteristics of the 1.9 are
	taken into account!.

	Note. It has occurred to me that I might be able to find a
	gearbox amongst the 'standard' varieties that would suit me
	better, so if anybody out there has details of BX, 405 etc.
	ratios in a reference book I'd be glad to hear what they
	are. It appears to be exceedingly easy to change the gearbox
	but I can't tell whether the diff is part of or separate to
	it.

	A difference between the Gti cars and other 205s is that
	the GTi versions (and probably diesel) have the gearbox at
	the side of the egine whereas the smaller engines have it
	underneath. Whether this has changed lately I don't know;
	the book dates from 87.

	Not much is said on maintenance, and what there is has mainly
	already been in this column. It looks as if these cars qualify
	now as being exceedingly reliable, judging by what one hears.
	They do say how to cure squeaking rear torsion bars though.
	Mine used to squeak but now it's stopped doing it. It also
	says that new pads have an abrasive coating designed to combat
	squealing, by 'honing' the discs at each change.

	The trim and dashboard comes in for a lot of stick, but this
	refers to the earlier version. My car has the later type and
	I find it to be perfectly OK.

	The 205-T16 is mentioned. Ferocious looking beast but the
	roadgoing version (200 were made) has performance only of
	1.9 magnitude and the turbo only really works above 3900 rpm!.
	The last rally version on the other hand had 435 hp and 0-60
	in 3.3 secs.

	That's all I can remember(or have time to type) right now.

	-John

    I can help you on one point: With the introduction of the TU engine,
    the physical layout has become the same as for the XU engine's. i.e.
    side by side. Also the gearbox on the XU engine has recently changed
    (along with the one in the 405/BX) it now has reverse opposite first.
    apparently so that reverse could have synchromesh.
    
    
    Also, you say that the gearbox on the smaller engines is underneath.
    True, but a bit stranger than that. The engine actually leans
    backwards at a crazy angle (70 degree's?) the gearbox lies in the crook
    between the engine and the chassis. 
    
    roughly as viewed from side
    
                                  /-------/
                               /       /
                            /       /    <--engine
        <front of       /       /
         car         /       /---------
                  /       /           |
               /       /              |  <--gearbox
               ------------------------
    angle is actually much steeper!
    
    Drive from engine comes out through a conventional clutch, then through
    a set of transfer gears, and back underneath to the gearbox. The gears
    are straight cut and VERY prone to noise particularly from backlash.
    
    The engine was also used by Citroen in the Visa, along with the GTi 1.6
    and 1.7 diesels.
    
    Richard

    We recently purchased a 205 Junior 954 cc as a second car. It has one
    annoying feature that it is very difficult to start when the engine is
    warm. It starts fine from cold or hot, but needs 3 or 4 churns on the
    starter at all other times. We have tried various combinations or choke
    and accelerator but none makes much difference. 
    The problem is obviously fuel related and vaporisation. Is this a
    common problem on 205's and does anyone have a fix ?
    The fuel pipes are routed away from hot parts of the engine as far as
    possible, fuel and air filters are all new etc.
    
    Adrian
    

    
    Does anyone know if I can fit 13" wheels to a 205 1.9, which usually
    has 15" wheels? Anyone know a dealer I can ring to ask there in
    Blighty?
    
    Just want to make sure that they'll fit over the brakes ......

�    Does anyone know if I can fit 13" wheels to a 205 1.9, which usually
�    has 15" wheels? Anyone know a dealer I can ring to ask there in
    
    What the bl**dy hell would you want to do that for ??? !!!!!!
    
    I know 13" tyres are cheaper, but then again, so are 'naff' remoulds !
    
    J.R.

    
    Possibly he's got some snow tyres on 13" wheels?
    
    Mark

    
    13"/50 profile tyres are as good (ok they might not be quite as good,
    but there's not a lot of difference) as 15"/50 profile tyres.
    
    The problem with putting 13" wheels on a car designed for 15" is that 
    you would have to raise the profile considerably to get the same
    gearing. Higher profile tyres give less accurate steering and inferior
    handling. So, assuming you are going to keep the same gearing 13" tyres 
    would be inferior in those areas. 
    
    Of course, high profile, narrow tyres are good in the snow, hence my 
    suggestion.
    
    Mark

    There is also the small matter that the speedo will be out due to the
    change in overall gearing, resulting in it reading substantially fast.
    You will think you are driving n mph over the limit, when you are
    actually crawling. The engine will be racing in 5th, your fuel
    consumption will go up, and if the plods find out, you will get booked
    for having an illegally inaccurate speedo.
    
    Steve

    Re. my earlier statement,
>    I know 13" tyres are cheaper, but then again, so are 'naff' remoulds !
    
    then replies that followed...
    
�                      -< And whats WRONG with 13" tyres >-
�   
�I know a car that would be insulted by such a remark.
�Its a blatant case of sizism.
    
    Well, I suppose I could easily be accused of 'sizism'.
    
�    13"/50 profile tyres are as good (ok they might not be quite as good,
�    but there's not a lot of difference) as 15"/50 profile tyres.
    
    This answer points to what I was originally concerned with, that
    of staying with the same (or similar) profile tyre.  I would agree
    that any difference would not be great.  The other 'difference' would
    relate 'worry' in the original question - brake size.  Larger diameter
    wheels are fitted to allow larger brake discs.
    
�    The problem with putting 13" wheels on a car designed for 15" is that 
�    you would have to raise the profile considerably to get the same
�    gearing. Higher profile tyres give less accurate steering and inferior
�    handling. So, assuming you are going to keep the same gearing 13" tyres 
�    would be inferior in those areas. 
    
    I do understand the relationship between gearing and the aspect
    ratio of a tyre ('standard' being about 80%, yes ?).  So, if a
    15"/50-series tyre is replaced by a 13" tyre, the gear ratio will
    be affected (quite noticeably) if a different aspect ratio is used
    in tyre selection.
    
    Could you please explain your comments that 'higher profile tyres give
    less accurate steering and inferior handling'.
    
    I don't appreciate how the steering would be less accurate, or would
    this be related to the way in which the contact patch does not follow
    the road surface in the same manner ?
    By 'inferior handling' I am also unsure.  I _know_ that the 'ride' is
    worse when lower aspect ratio tyres are used, but would the difference
    in sidewall height have any disadvantage as far as 'handling' is
    concerned ? (my ideas being that handling relates to the ability of
    a car to follow a chosen, correct, route more accurately - and to
    respond to any changes in control to effect changes in direction)
    
    
    
�    Possibly he's got some snow tyres on 13" wheels?
    
�    Of course, high profile, narrow tyres are good in the snow, hence my 
�    suggestion.
    
    This could be my biggest [verbal/written] stumbling block...
    
    I opened my mouth [keyboard] too soon.
    
    If I had considered further, this reason for different wheel sizes
    should have entered my mind.  It is a fact that narrow tyres will
    behave better in snow, but I had not thought of that reason.
    
    If different tyres are fitted for use in snow, they may as well be
    of an 'M+S' pattern, which is only available in 'high-profile'
    as this is the most effective design.
    
    I jumped to the conclusion that this was someone with a Pug GTi
    which had 15" wheels, who had the opportunity to get some wheels
    of 13" diameter - presumably in a pretty neat design.
    In normal road use, I would not agree with changing to wheels/tyres
    of a 'lesser' status (compared to manufacturers recommendations)
    but as always, there are exceptions to the [my] rules.
    
    So, sorry if I did 'jump the gun', as I cannot help with the
    original query - regards brake clearance on different size wheels.
    On this subject, it would help to know if the brake discs were larger
    between the 1.6/1.9 Gti and lesser models.  If they were not increased
    in size (though I expect they were) then you could safely fit the same
    size wheels as found on the smaller-engined cars.
    
    J.R.

    A few replies entered whilst I typed in the last one (by me).
    
�	Tape  the correction factor on to dash  
    
    Is this a legally acceptable solution ?
    
    What should be displayed, equivalent speeds at 10mph increments,
    the %age 'inaccuracy', or what ?
    
    I ask as my car still has a KPH speedo dial.  I know the speed
    at which I am travelling when certain figures are indicated,
    but wonder what the situation would be if caught speeding.
    For instance, with 140kph on the speedo, what if I said that
    'I thought it was a 2-to-1 ratio' in a 70mph limit ?
    I would still expect to be 'nicked' for speeding, would I also
    be 'done' for not having a 'correct, working' speedometer ?
    
    J.R. (I know that 'ignorance' is no defence)

�	Jump the gun any time. I enjoy the opportunity for a wind up.
    
    Yeah, I had noticed... Me too.
    
    Anyway, CARS_UK seems very quiet now that the F1 boys have no more
    accidents to argue about.
    
    J.R. (what happened to 'contentious, moi' as a PN in CARS_UK ?)

English law requires speedometers on cars driven in the UK to have both an MPH
and a KMH scale.  If you have only a KMH scale, you're breaking the law just by
driving the car on the road, at any speed!

Scott

�English law requires speedometers on cars driven in the UK to have both an MPH
�and a KMH scale.  
    'driven in the UK' - is that so, or only 'registered in the UK'
    
    (I would fail on both counts anyhow, just asking)
    
�If you have only a KMH scale, you're breaking the law just by
�driving the car on the road, at any speed!
    
    That doesn't surprise me - as I queried, I would get 'done' for
    having an 'incorrect' speedo.
    
    Anyone know what the law says about 'inaccurate' speedos
    (or indication of inaccuracy) - I ask with regard to the
    Jeep I used to drive (which a friend now owns).
    That had a wildy inaccurate speedo due to MUCH larger tyre diameter.
    
    J.R.

13" wheels should not cause a problem re: brake discs, unless the discs are
enormous (> 11", very unlikely).

15" wheels with 205/50 tyres have the same (within .2 of an inch) rolling radius
as 13" wheels with 185/70 tyres, or 165/80 tyres.  Thus gearing (hence engine
speed, fuel consumption and speedo accuracy) and ground clearance are not a
problem.

Why does Mr Kennedy want to do this, anyway?

Scott

I've heard two reports on this one:

1) The speedo must be accurate to within �5%: ie at 70mph it can read anything
   between 66.5 and 73.5mph
2) The speedo may not underread, but may overread by up to 10%: ie it can say
   you're doing 77mph when you're only doing 70, but can't say you're doing
   70 if you're doing 71...

Take your pick...

Scott

    
    Ooops, what a Rathole .....

    Firstly, well done Mark, it does regard Winter tyres.

    I'll keep it as short as possible ...

    I had an Astra GTE when working in Sweden, 185/65 - 14". Winter
    comes along, fall off road, thinks, better get some new tyres. Hence
    one set of studded 155/80 13" tyres + wheels. But can't drive in Britain
    with them so have to change back for Christmas. Drive through next year,
    back in England for holiday in November, don't want to get caught out on
    trip to Vienna back to Stockholm, so buy set of 175/70 - 13" wheels and
    tyres in Britain (difficult to get snow tyres there!).

    Car is now back in England (to be replaced in next few weeks) using
    summer tyres, so I have some spare wheels and tyres. I am going back
    for Christmas in the Pug with its 185/55 - 15" summer set, and intend
    to buy new 13" standard wheels and stick the winter tyres on, because
    I'll be skiing in February, time permitting.

    Main problem is will it allow 13" wheels because of the brakes?

>>>>of an 'M+S' pattern, which is only available in 'high-profile'

    I suppose that set of 225/50 16" Pirelli 190s lying in my cellar would 
    not be considered as low profile then?

    BTW, for those of you have not driven on snow tyres, they make a lot of 
    a difference, and not only on snow, it's very difficult to aquaplane
    on them in heavy rain ......

    
    Now we know why Colin wants to do it, can anyone answer his question?
    
    I can't, but I can clarify my comments about inferior steering and
    handling. The advantage of low profile tyres (as I understand it) is
    that they have short sidewalls which flex less than higher profile
    tyres. Obvoiously if the tyre wall is flexing you are getting unwanted
    motion between your steering wheel and the road, hence less accurate
    steering. Equally if the tyres are flexing the suspension is less able
    to take account of what the road surface is doing and hence handling
    will become less 'sharp'.
    
    Mark

�    I can't, but I can clarify my comments about inferior steering and
�    handling. The advantage of low profile tyres (as I understand it) is
    
    Oh, I thought that you were trying to say that low-profile tyres
    resulted in inferior steering/handling...
    
    Re - M+S tyres being high/low profile.
    
    Again, I was not entirely correct.  As was pointed out, 'winter' tyres
    can be had in low-profile configuration.  I think this is more common
    abroad due to the real need to have different tyres for winter conditions,
    where the tyres will be expected to fit within the wheelarches of cars
    that normally run 'road' tyres on large diameter wheel rims.
    
    Suppose that's enough chat about tyre profiles etc, and you still
    have no answer to your original question.
    
    Re - speedo inaccuracy.
    
    I understand that a speedo is permitted to be a certain percentage
    inaccurate, although I think the way that it is defined means that
    the speedo cannot 'under-read', so that you would be speeding without
    knowing it.
    
    I mainly wanted to know the legal view with regard to the comment
    that kit cars tape a correction factor to the dash.
    
    J.R. (sorry that these notes are not related to the topic)

    
    As regards speedos being inaccurate, I thought flat out was flat out ..
    
    However, with tyres rated at 190 kph, exceeding that would not be wise!

         <<< Note 35.366 by PLAYER::KENNEDY_C "The same old clich�" >>>
                           -< So what's the answer? >-

I don't know about 13" wheels, but there's a 1.9 in the Ferney car
park with 165/70-14's fitted. I guess things like brake temperatures
could be a problem? Dunno. I'm going up to the local dealer later on
to ask them myself so if I get back here after I'll put in a reply.

Graham.

    
    Cheers Graham, and everyone, guess I'll find out when I get back home.
    
    If needs be, I'll have to add another set to the collection ......

    Hi 205 fans,
    
    Has anyone got any info on the new 205 Diesel Turbo? Has anybody out
    there driven one? If so what was it like?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Pete.

    This car has been tested by one of the newspapers over here.
    Well received and equiped.  GTI styled.
    Cost in Holland Dfl 36,000.--
    Speed up to 175 Km/h.
    
    Hans
    

	My windscreen washer bottle ran low today.

	Just thought it was time for another reply here.

	-John

	PS. Anyone had a good look at the turbo diesel yet?.

    re .371
    
      my windscreen washer bottle ran low today
    
    
    I'll alert the media..!!!

    Mine's gone back now!...my life won't be the same without my little pug!
    Sniff sniff...
    
    

       Mine goes back tommorrow. No problem though, I get my new one the
       same day. If you want to know why I chosen a 205 twice, try
       driving one for a while. I've decided twice now NOT to go for an
       R5GT or an RS Turbo!  :-)

       Seriously, this will be my twentieth car, and the first time I've
       ever had the same car again! After reading the tales of woe in
       some of the other topics, I wouldn't have gone for anything else.

       Mind you, my rear washer bottle is getting low.

       Ian.

    
    >>   Mind you, my rear washer bottle is getting low.
    
    You don't get this problem with a 5 GT Turbo! :^)
    
    Mark

	Peered quickly into a showroom of a Peugeot dealer t'other day,
	and saw a 205 diesel turbo.

	Basically it's a GT (NOT a Gti) with the 78 BHP turbo diesel
	engine. (The GT is the 4 door equivalent of the XS). Performance
	is apparently as follows -

		Max speed	- 109
		0-62 mph	- 12.2
		Urban cycle	- 42.8 mpg
	
	The one thing that I did notice was that the interior is "Henry
	Ford", ie any colour as long as it's black; dark, depressing,
	dreary black.

	There are also available some 'Roland Garrios' special edition
	205s at ridiculous prices.

	-John

    
    
    
    	Anybody got an idea of how much my 205 is worth,
    
    	YOM 85 , C plate, 73000 miles, good condition, full mot & tax etc.
    	
    	also it will proberbly be sold in the north of England, where I
    	would imagine it would be worth more then in the South.
    
    	If someone could sneak a look at the Parkers guide the next time
    	they are in WH Smiths. :-)
    
    	thanks Garry. 
    
    	 

    .377�    	also it will proberbly be sold in the north of England, where I
    .377�    	would imagine it would be worth more then in the South.
    
    Interesting thought?? why?? My brother-in-law deliberatley drove his
    car down to the South UK, and sold it here, rather than in the North -
    in order to get more for it. He felt he got about 8 - 10% more, but
    that was 3 years ago......

    
    Recession in South > Recession in North?
    
    Mark

    
    
    I hadn't thought of the recession, but when i bought it 2 years ago
    I looked in Hull were I'm from, and in London were I was at the time,
    
    Up norf it seemed there wasn't a great deal of choice ( 2nd hand ) and
    what cars were available were sought after and therefore commended a 
    reasonable price, ie not many gti's bought new but popular for 'The
    young boy racer types' to buy second hand.
    
    'darn sarf in the smoke' everybody was driving new Mercs etc and noone
    wanted a second hand gti, so prices were rock bottom guvner. I think in
    general nice cars are proberbly more expensive the further north you
    get but cheap cars are much cheaper. Genaralizations all the way in
    this note....
     
    
    Garry
    

I'm picking up a 1.9 gti tonight second hand and the tyres look as though 
they'll be ready for renewal soon. I have a full set of new 195/50 vr 15's 
from my previous car.(ps anyone want to buy a set of 15" alloys for an XR2)

Has anyone put wider tyres on thier Pug? 
what about 50 profile? 
I saw one SLIGHTLY modified 205 gti with turbo technics upgrade at a motor 
show with 205+225/45 vr 16's on compomotive 16" split rim alloy's and that 
looked great,

has anyone put new alloy's on a 1.9? if so what kind/tyre size and the big 
question:- what did they cost?

thanks in advance,

Bob (honest i'll drive slowly)

O.K. Its about time we had some action in this note......

My 1.9 Pug seems to be using a rather worryingly large amount of oil. It is
a D reg, with 50000 on the clock. The exhaust is a nice grey colour, and oil
is not leaking from anywhere (as far as I can see). 

Can't say exactly how much oil it uses, but it seems that every time I check,
its is below the minimum mark (every 2 weeks or so).

Is this amount of oil consumption common on 1.9s ??

Woz

>> below the minimum mark

Umm, how much do you put in to top it up?  ie how much is it actually losing
every fortnight?

Are you sure you put it in the right hole?  What colour's your
windscreen washer fluid these days? :-)

I guess its about a litre, but its hard to tell since I fill it up from an
enormous "my god this oil is expensive" 5 litre can thingy.

Oh, and gee thanks for the tip Scott. I wondered why I couldn't see anything
through my windscreen ! ;-)

Woz

remember reading about oil loss on 928s' apparently they seem to use
oil quite a lot if they have oil in them upto the hi-oil mark on the
dipstick, as opposed to using only very small quantities if kept nearer
the lo-oil mark on the dipstick

I never understood why this was the case though?!


...art

	My 1.9, now at 34,000 miles, will run 3000 miles on the 
	difference between low and high on the stick. I am still
	using the same 5 litre can that I had when it was new,
	most oil coming from the services.

	However I should point out that I rarely rev the engine
	much, and indeed if it wasn't for the gear ratios I
	wouldn't normally get above 3000 rpm (normal change point).

	High revs drink oil, as the owners of elderly 16v twincams 
	will surely discover.

	-John_who_got_39.56_mpg_from_a_tank_at Easter

�	-John_who_got_39.56_mpg_from_a_tank_at Easter
    
    I thought Tanks got single-digit (or worse) consumption figures  ;-)
    
    J.R.

You have a 1.9 and you don't go above 3000 rpm ! Thats where all the fun
starts ;-)))

Seriously, the high revving was what I suspected. Still, I spose it keeps the
oil clean !

Woz

re 35.387

The Abrams tank does 11... Gallons to the mile, I jest not.

Simon - who_thought_his_Landrover_was_bad

My 1.9gti has done 37,000 miles and has only needed to be topped up twice (other
than it's regular service). If you run around town a lot (I don't) then it is
common for the oil to get diluted with water and other liquids which get 
burned off when the engine gets hot and works hard for a period of time (as in
a long trip) - so it is common to see the oil level drop somewhat after a trip.

    
    
    
    	Does anyone have the address for the Peugeot customer complaints
    	Dept, I think its in Birmingham somewhere but unfortunately dont
    	have the address. 
    
    	Thanks in advance.
    	Garry.

    My PUG 1.9 has now done 55000 miles in two years and never needed
    a top up of oil....other than each service (which has been every 
    12 weeks recently!)...
    
    Its been reliable;  one alternator, fuel-gauge fault, loose suspension
    joint, oil-guage light fault (maybe thats why it has not needed oil?)..
    and that with very heavy usage and plenty of 6000+ RPM's!!
    
    Dissappointments;  Not too keen on my cassettes being cooked and I 
    keep breaking the coin lid-clip....short list eh?
    
    Wanted a CRX when I got it but the company said no even though the
    cost was 350 quid cheaper...glad they did.. this car is brill....
    
    Tony
    
    P.S. Any other ex Citicorp PUG owners out there .. there were six out
    of twelve in out last office!!!! 

    
    
    55000 miles eh !
    
    Might I suggest getting the timing belt changed now, bad experience
    with timing belts. ;-(
    

Thanks for the oil advice guys.

But it doesn't really matter any more, since I wrote it off the other week

:-(

Woz

Well thanks for all your reply's to note 35.381 :-)

In the end I got a new set of MIM 5 spoke 7*15 alloys with grey centre and
polished rim as a trade in for my 1.9 alloys and XR2 alloys...with the
195/50 vr 15 tyres i had already. The shop threw in a set of locking nuts
2 * 3mm spacers to keep the rear tyres clear of the suspension, and a couple
of bottles of auto-glym. Off i went without paying a penny...

what a difference...... 7" wheels really fill up those arches...
and the polished rim just finishes it off nicely.

Now if only I could find the dosh for the 40mm suspension lowering/handling kit


Bob 

     A suspension upgrade for a 205 GTI.  Now that is frightening!
     
     Bob,
     What don't you like about the current setup/handling?

The car handles great, however if there is an improvement out there and it's 
within reasonable financial reach ( suspension mod = approx 400 pounds ) then
i'll seriously think about getting it. (insurance premium is a big factor here)

Lowering the suspesion will also hide the gap between the tyres and the wheel 
arch which again I think makes the car look better.  

I'll dig out the article in one of the car mags i read recently in which the 
reporter said "he did not think that the peugeot suspension could be improved 
However..it was"

Bob 

    If you can't fault the handling, why do you think you could detect an
    improvement, why have you got to have an improvement?.
    
    Isn't this I got to have it because it's there!
    
    Richard

    RE last
    
    Yep I have to agree with you Richard. I would be most surprised 
    if you could improve it and also notice the difference on the 1.9.
    
    Would the insurance be reduced just for suspension? ... or do you
    mean it will balance the costs if you upgrade the engine?
    
    Tony,  But_I_would_like_to_try_it_myself_! 

This was extracted without the owners permision etc... from Car mecahnics -
performance in practice date June 1991.

Note they also have 3 other peugeot 205 gti's in the mag with various forms
of modification including the aforementioned dimma 205 08 styling kit with the
16" wheels and tyres at 1300 quid for the wheels and tyres only.


here's an extract of the suspension mod article:-
/******************************************************************************/
"Then it was the moment of truth. The wheels were refitted and the car slowly 
lowered to the ground. Even in the workshop it was easy to detect the 
difference the modifications had made to the cars ride height, but the real test
would be carried out on the road.

The difference was nothing short of amazing. The most noticeable factor was a
firmer ride; far stiffer than before but not over harsh. Steering also felt
lighter.

On the first stretch of twisty road we put the sproting set through its paces. 
Body roll was much reduced, inspiring confidence in the tightest of corners.
Overall, the car feels taughter and more positive. It's difficult to improve
on suspension set up as good as that on the 205 GTi, but Sach seem to have 
done it!

The sachs sporting set for the 205 GTi retails at 450 pounds....."
/******************************************************************************/

re insurance. Certain modifications will cause your insurance premiums to 
increase. I think wheels and suspension are OK as they do not increase the
speed that your car will go at... however as to how fast you may drive now 
that's a different story.


re If you can't fault it./ More money than sense?

If you wan't something sensible buy an anorak :-)

I said "The car handles great,however if there is an improvement out there and 
it's within reasonable financial reach ( suspension mod = approx 400 pounds ) 
then i'll seriously think about getting it."

so I never said there were no faults or i'd spend any thing like the 10,000 that
some people do on their pug's for body/wheels/turbo/suspension/full leather
and Hi-fi.  


Bob (who never bought an anorak)

    
    Has anybody experienced any hiccups in power while accelerating hard 
    through the range of 5000 to 6000 rpm ?
    
    This is my second 1.9l and it suffers three hiccups, my first one
    suffered two.
    
    Just a thought, but I think there might be something wrong with the
    Engine Management System ( i.e. the black box under the bonnet, not me
    :-)
    
    Steven

There were 3 modifications in the mag,

here's the descriptions.


1) 2 from the same owner (no prices) Steve Pilcher ( 1 for his wife and one 
   for himself )
   he started with a 1.6 then got a 1.9 as well. put the 1.9 engine in the 
   1.6 then done the works on the 1.9.

   The 1.6 gti which got the 1.9 engine. This engine was then striped down and 
   rebuilt by Richard Longman Tuning, starting with a lightened and balanced
   all steel botom end taken from a Peugeot 405 Mi16. This allows for a red 
   line set at an incredible 8800rpm.
   Oversized liners and forged pistons were installed before a gas flowed
   cylinder head was mated up. A kent PT 2 fast road camshaft and power pulley
   were fitted while a Sebring exhaust manifold and system finished the 
   conversion off.

   Steve has had the car rolling road tested - maximum power was 158 BHP at 
   the flywheel.

   with eneough power on tap to blow away most other 205's Steve set about
   making his car more visually striking. A Guttman Turbo Look 2 bodykit was 
   first choice.... Unlike many conventional body kits the Guttman conversion
   actually bondsonto the shell. rising to half the height of the rear side  
   window.
   
   A suspension sort out was next on the list. Guttman springs were fitted up 
   front, resulting in a drop of 40mm. The rear torsion bar was exchanged for a
   PTS item and adjusted by the same amount to even things out. A PTS 23mm anti 
   roll bar was alslo fitted.

   Wheels were exchanged for 7*15" Parkfield Auto Tec Thrust items shod with
   Yokahoma A008 195/50*15 ZR rubber at the front and Bridgestone RE71 
   195/50*15 ZR at the rear. TAR-OX brake pads help to bring everything to a 
   halt.

2) Next to the 1.9 turbocharging was the obvious option. Steve had already tried
   Turbo Technics 1.9 and was impressed by the amount of power it developed. 
   With an empty engine bay his options were open.

   Frank Schroer - a Dutch tuning firm - was able to supply Steve with what he 
   wanted. The bottom spec was to be identical to that of his other GTi-
   lightened and balanced with forged pistons. A gasflowed cylinder head with
   a Schrick camshaft was fitted, and the compression ratio was dropped to 7.8.
   The turbocharger was supplied by Garret and currently runs to 1 Bar. If he's 
   in the mood for scaring himself Steve can wind it up to 1.7.

   Rolling road figures clocked the average power @ 185BHP at the flywheel.
   In standard trim the 1.9 develops around 130 BHP so this is a significant 
   improvement.

   With this amount of power. Steve had no choice but to modify the suspension 
   and brakes as well.
   Once again Guttman springs have been fitted at the sharp end with rear 
   torsion bar altered to compensate for the drop in height. Koni dampers were
   installed. A French PTS strup brace helps keep things rigid under hard 
   cornering, without fouling under the bonet.

   Wider rubber was vital for improved grip. Bridgestone RE71 7*15" covers are
   mounted on RW high-tec wheels.

   Stopping power is provided courtesy of TAR-OX 40 slot discs and pads, with
   fluid pumping through steel braided lines.

   Externally the 205's most dominant feature is the set of driving lights 
   mounted underneath the front bumper (2 pairs). The rear reflector panel has 
   been smothed out and painted black to match the tinted rear lights. The car
   which Steve claims is just a runaround is geared for a top spead of 145mph.
   He's already seen the spedo needle go into the land that calibrations forgot-
   registering over 140mph...

3) The other modified PUG is the one with the Dimma 205 08 styling kit
   @1500 including painting the entire car in it's original colour
    extra 400 for colour change or metalic
    extra 500 for pearl
    extra 200 for black
   1300 for wheels and tyres
   175 for bonnet louvres
   200 for suspension lowering (excl vat)

   85 ANSA twin or oval tailbox exhaust
   3500 for a complete new 16v engine (405 I believe) is the only engine mod
        that Dimma offer


Bob
   

    re.402
    
    Yes, try a new set of plugs.

    re:-1
    
    I've tried that, and I've had this problem with both 1.9's over many
    years.
    
    I was just wondering whether this problem has been experienced by
    anybody else and if so how they fixed.
    
    
    Cheers                                           
    
    Steven

    Re -1 
    
    Only thing I've noticed is a bit of a flat spot when flooring the
    accelerater, and a bit 'hiccupy' when cold (expected I suppose).
    
    Can't say I've noticed anything in the 5000 to 6000 rpm range.
    What exactly are you experiencing?
    
    ..Craig

    Re.402
    
    Hiccups? There isn't any power in those things, esp. between 5000 and
    6000 rpm!
    

    Re: -2
    
    Well, when I put my foot to the floor, say to overtake, then the rpms
    wind up pretty quickly until I get to approximately 5250 rpms and then
    the car seems to lose power for say a � second and then pick up again.
    
    The effect this has on the car is much the same as when a car is
    temporarily starved of petrol.
    
    This effect also happens at approximately 5500 and 5750 rpms.
    
    It's a little disconncerting to say the least when 
    
    
    Regards
    
    Steven

    
    I am thinking of buying a 1.6 205 GTI in the near future, can anyone give
    any pointers on what to look out for when viewing the cars?
    
    I am looking to pay up to 4000 pounds, and from looking at the various
    trade magazines should be able to pick up a C or D reg (privately) for
    the money.
    
    Has anyone ever bought a 205 GTI at an auction, any comments????
    
    
    Regards,
    
    
    Graham
    

I was reading a report on the ZX Volcante. In it the tester was making
favourable comment about the 1.9 engine which is cured of the infamous
shunt problem.

This engine, as I understand it, is the same 1.9 XU unit as fitted in the 
Puegeot GTi (205 and 309) models.

My question therefore is how PSA have fixed the problem and if the fix
is suitable for the Peugeot GTi models (perhaps a new EMU ?).

I sure wouldn't mind having this annoying problem in my GTi fixed...

	I had my '89 1.9 for nearly 3 years and 41K miles, during
	which time the engine never missed a beat.

	-John

    
    I am on my second pug and mine hasn't missed a beat either !
    
    Steven

    re: the last couple.. aren't you lucky!! My pug 205GTI spent 25 days in
    the garage in the first six months of its life, with them (Reading
    Garage) trying to find the fault.  Every time it came back it went fine
    for a hundred miles or so then, blat, back to 'normal!'
    Eventually I got told by the dealer "you're not starting it properly
    and when you come to junctions you're not decellerating properly!"
    
    	Jon.
    

Sorry, I should have been more specific. What I mean is the infamous "shunt"
problem, which results in the car "bunny-hopping" when at low revs on a trailing
throttle and when the accelerator is then pressed. Particularly annoying in city
traffic and stop-start driving. The only solution is using the clutch to smooth
the engine.

I understand that it is caused by the fuel cutoff in the engine management
system closing down the injectors prematurely causing a "snatch" to be
transmitted through the transmission.

My query arises from the fact the the ZX Volcante road test commented that
the XU 1.9 engine was cured of this habit...

    Had my ZX Volcane for 2.5 months/6.2K miles, and since new it has
    exhibited what I assume to be the infamous Peugeot 'shunt' (but since
    I've never driven an injected Peugeot before, I'm not quite sure if I'm
    talking about the same thing...).
    
    It's not really bad: the problem comes when you lift your foot off the
    throttle -- seems like the car is being held back more than it should
    just through engine braking. Also, at around 1600 rpm in traffic, it is
    impossible to drive smoothly.
    
    Is the Peugeot shunt?
    
    
    Stephen

    Can anyone tell me does a 1984 205 1.6 GTi run on unleaded without any
    adjustment?? 
    
    
    Cheers,
    Ian.

    It can be adjusted to run on unleaded - but it needs someone to make
    the changeover - normally it can be done as part of a service and was
    pretty cheap (or maybe even free!)
    
    Rob

    >> Can anyone tell me does a 1984 205 1.6 GTi run on unleaded without any
    >> adjustment?? 
    
    NO!
    
    The 1992 Peugeot 205 1.6 GTi doesn't run on unleaded!
    
    They might tell you it does, but it doesn't.
    
    Ian.

    Seems to be OK on my old car - now run by my partner for about 30,000
    miles on unleaded (50,000 on leaded).
    
    Rob 

    	The infamous Pug "Shunt" and "Stall" problems, well documented in
    	previous replies, seem to affect some peoples cars more than
    	others.
    
    	In my case, the problems are just bareable using 4 star, but
    	totally unacceptable with unleaded. I was even told by my local
    	Peugeot dealer not to attempt to use unleaded!
    
    	Ian.

    
    All you budding 205 1.6 GTi owners better get it before the end of the
    year, as that's the last you'll see if it.
    
    A report in the latest 'Autocar' tells that due to the new emission
    laws, the 1.6 GTi will be dropped completely at the end of this year,
    leaving only the 1.9. Peugeot claim it's for economic reasons, not for
    engineering reasons, but they also say that adding the essential
    catalytic converter, will take the power will go down to about 103 bhp,
    so they don't want to do it.
    
    Bye bye 1.6
    
    Steve.
    
    

    
    If anyone is looking to buy parts, a place that I have used a couple of
    times is AutoFive (0606 42505). They are based in Cheshire, but can get
    parts to you within a day. It is worth a ring to get a part list from
    them.
    
    Ben

    Hi,
    
    	I'm looking closely at a 205GTI (92 vintage) and was wondering if
    anyone could give me some feedback on a couple of points. A Note in
    the CARBUFFS conference (extract below) indicated that 55,000 miles saw the
    engine gasping it last... can anyone comment on the longetivity of the
    motor/drivetrain ? I'd imagine 55,000 miles may be a limit with typical
    town driving (10 miles/day sort of thing) but open road/freeway should
    see a larger figure.
    
    Also does the 1.9 motor need the high-octane unleaded or does it run on
    the lower octane unleaded.
    
    Thank's for any feedback.
    
    Rob
    
    
             <<< DLOACT::APP$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARBUFFS.NOTE;2 >>>
                                 -< Carbuffs >-
================================================================================
Note 196.26                       Peugeot Note                          26 of 35
CGVAX2::LAVES::LAVES                                  6 lines   3-FEB-1992 16:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 205 GTI 1.9 makes 139 hp.  Last time I checked, the engine had a reputation 
to last only 50,000 miles ( I can't substantiate this with empirical evidence, 
since my company insisted on VW/Audi products as company cars...)
I love the convertible version of it!

Joerg
    

You must replace the cam belt at about 45K miles, otherwise the engine has a
good reputation for longetivity. Mines done 55K and is showing no signs of
wear whatsoever.

    re .424
    
    I've never heard this before, I've known several Pugs still to be
    purring at 75-80,000 - and this is no doubt after a hard life.
    
    The 1.9 can only run on high-octane unleaded and/or 4*.  This doesn't
    apply to the cat version though (92 on)
    
    ..Craig

    I've just bought a 60,000 mile 1.9 Gti, it still drives like new and the
    car still pulls hard and fast all the way to the red line.
    
    There two problems with the car though, both of which are
    reasonably easy to fix (I hope) :-
    
    The clock doesn't work and Rear spoiler is loose at one side.
          
                                                                 
    Not bad for 4 year old Peugot!
     
    
    Regards,
    
    
    Graham
    
    

    >     The clock doesn't work ...
    
    	How did you see it?
    	
    	Ian.

    RE: -1
    
    
    Some of the characters are illuminated, not all of them. 
    
    Can any one tell me what the standard tyre size is on the 1.9, mine is
    fitted with 185/55/VR15's at the front and 195/50/VR15's at the rear???
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Graham 

    Re -1
    
    The standard tyre size is 185/55/VR15's all round.
    
    ..Craig

    
    Does anyone know of any insurance companies that offer cheap (is there
    such a thing???) insurance for the 205 Gti's?
    
    I've just been quoted �1600 fully comp to insure my 1.9 (worth about
    �4400)!!!! Is there an owners club that offer cheap insurance to
    members?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Graham
    

I got my 1.9gti F reg 6,500 bucks (last year) insured with 
Swinton (see yellow pages for your local branch) for 640 
pounds fully comp.. thats with 50% no claims 100 pound excess and a policy that
covers my wife and myself as the only named drivers with < 6 points each,
We are both over 25.
The policy is an initial installment and monthly payments type,

There is probably a reduced fee because I stay in Ayr, which is a fairly low 
risk area.

However I have not seen how the new insurance group ratings will affect this 
price...


Bob 

ps make sure that you tell them ALL your details when you give them a phone
   otherwise they often miss out a couple of hundred quids worth of extras
   on the initial quote. 

    
    Hi, could anyone give me the going market price for a 205 1.9 Gti,
    September 1988, F reg, with 40,000 miles on it?
    
    Need to fill in the "Present value" field on the claim form again.

I just sold a July 88 50000 miles 1.9 for FF40,000.

Graham.

ps how come you're in Neuchatel and not in Ferney :-)

    
    Thanks Graham, but UK prices are needed for a UK reg car. I'm in
    Neuchatel 'cause I didn't like the deal they offered in Ferney, but I
    have been in Ferney every weekend since being here, just ask Jeremy.
    
    <PLEA_ON>
    
    Right, as Graham so rightly pointed out, I'm stuck here in Switzerland.
    I'm based in Neuchatel, but this week I'm in meetings in Berne, and I
    can't get onto this conference 'till late, ref note time.
    
    The situation is, that my girlfriend, who is working her notice in
    Brussels, before she joins me here, came to see me the weekend before
    last in the 205, returned on the Wednesday and the car disappeared from
    outside a friends place (own up Chris, it's a nice neighbourhood
    init?).
    
    Have spoken to the insurance, various faxs, car's not turned up, so I
    need to know what the thing is worth in �'s sterling to tell them the
    Present Value, to get some dosh back from them.
    
    So if anyone has access to a Glass' guide or even a local rag which has
    adverts for a similar car, will someone please post the market value of
    a 205 GTi 1.9, 1988, F reg with 40,000 miles PLEASE!
    
    <PLEA_OFF>
    
    BTW, the car hadn't been emptied, so only only our maker knows what else
    went!

    
    A&M has cars 205 GTIs priced between 4700 and 5500 depending on
    usual things like mileage/extras/cond etc.  5k+ would seem to
    be ok for 40,000. (Only you know how much it's been thrashed :-))
    
    Richard.    

    	The "What Car?" secondhand guide gives for TRADE - PRIVATE and
    	FRANCHISED DEALER:  �4000 - �4600 - �6000
    
    	Ian.

    
    Thanks boys ... 
    
    So I don't mention the chewed rear seats that my dog took a liking to?
    
    I'll pitch in at �5,500 and see what they say, 'cause it was regularly
    serviced and did have quite new wheels and tyres, which I didn't claim
    for last time. (�800 quid!)

    
    Although a 1.9 owner for two years, this is my first journey into
    cars_UK. Somehow that seems kinda weird, but I just didn't know. That's
    what you get for living in Scotland.
    
    Anyway, I've looked through a selection of the 400 odd notes here and
    haven't seen any mention of my troubles. This morning started with the
    disappearance of another Alloy spare wheel from the beneath the car. At
    230 pounds a shot, seems to me like a dumb design. Car theft isn't a
    massive problem in Edinburgh, yet theft of my wheel seems to be an
    accepted prerequisite to joining the Edinburgh underworld.
    
    Each time the wheel cradle is simply cut through and the wheel removed
    without setting the alarm off. My local Peugeot garage say they can't
    help. The local police say its common on Peugeot's and can't help.
    
    Anybody got any prevention ideas? I'm beginning to worry that Digital
    may think I'm selling them myself! I'm considering attaching razor
    blades around the interior of the wheel, should be fun in the dark.
    Maybe I'd be woken up by the yell.
    
    The only other alternative is to add a chain/padlock for them to cut
    through as well.
    
    I'd be very glad of any ideas.
    
    Tim.
    
    
    

    
    If you've got an alarm on the car, and it's one that detects lights
    coming on (voltage drop ?), you could connect a relay so that the
    interior light (the boot light would be even better) came on when a
    circuit was broken. The circuit that got broken could be through an
    easily breakable section of wire that was wrapped around the spare
    wheel carrier.
    
    I have a similar set up to switch on the interior light when the horn
    wires are pulled out.
    
    Graham

    Most citroens and Pugs have this arrangement, I've never heared of this
    before!. Must have very resourcefull crooks up there :-)
    
    Richard

    
    Thanks for the idea. My alarm, as with all in this office, is fitted by
    a local company, not Peugeot. Its got a sensor in the car, and I don't
    think it works on voltage change. I'll check out the options with the
    supplier. At the minute it only goes off when the car is actually
    entered, which to date has never happened. Mostly, I just assume there is
    an alarm and not just a remote control central locking button.
    
    I still prefer the razor blades idea. It would also provide blood
    samples for forensic testing.
    
    Tim.
                              
        

Whilst in Rome several year back, I noticiced that many cars had the spare wheel
chained and padlocked to the underneath of the car, so I guess this sytle of 
theft has now reached the UK.

A fair number of cars also removed the radio and had large chains/pad locks 
around the steering whell as well. 

�                               -< Italia style >-
�Whilst in Rome several year back, I noticiced that many cars had the spare wheel
�chained and padlocked to the underneath of the car,
    
    I noticed this in Spain recently too.  At first, I wondered why so
    many cars had chains hanging down - I thought they all needed to be
    towed ever-so-often  :-)
    
    J.R.

Best bet is to fit a crappy wheel underneath, and not an alloy one!


Greg

    
    Its a bit embarressing if you have a puncture though (like me
    recently).
    
    Tim

�    Its a bit embarressing if you have a puncture though (like me
    
    Not as embarrassing as not having a spare at all  :-)
    
    J.R>

    Hi,
      I have a 205 1.6 GTi, that is suffering from a floopy gearstick 
    syndrome.(Ooer!) I have been told that this is very common with 
    this gearbox and can be rectified with the changing of some springs
    in the selector. Has anyone attempted this job themselves, or
    is it a bigger job than I`ve been told.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Ian.

    Hi,
    
    	I've just clocked up 20,000k since getting a Red 205 GTI in late
    July and am wrapped with the beast. Thought I'd share some thoughts.
    
    It has great handling (I'm a motorcyclist at heart and love zapping up
    and down some very twisty roads along the NSW coast, and the Pug is an
    excellent 4 wheel bike !) and the motor is a gem.
    
    I've found it great for "traffic" driving, having good visibility all
    round. First gear is somewhat high and the on-off clutch make for some
    interesting hill starts until you get used to it. The power steering is
    great, giving good feedback from the road, brakes are progressive and
    very powerful. The inside is somewhat spartan compared to the
    Toyota/Nissan/Mazda offerings but has everything you need.
    
    It's an eminently practical car (it's the only one I have) offering a
    good amount of carrying space with the rear seats up and heaps with the
    seats down (for the fortnightly shopping expidition). With 4 people in
    it you notice the weight on acceleration and decelation, but that's to 
    be expected.
    
    I think the most redeaming feature of the 205 is how forgiving it is,
    you can whistle into a corner (around my home there is a couple of very
    nice off-camber, downhill left's and rights, which are tricky on a bike
    & previous Nissan), break and power out and the car does it... no drama
    !
    
    On the service side, the people I take it to (they are associated with
    the dealer that sold it) are good, they specialist in Pug, Jag .. etc
    cars and do the pre-sales stuff so know the cars pretty well.
    
    -ve's. None basically. Have found that the rear wheels sometimes rub
    the rear guards (back edge) with a full compliment of passengers over
    bumps, not a problem.
    
    The really great thing with it is there is so much more garage space at
    home !!
    
    Cheers
    
    	Rob
    
    P.S In an earlier note it was mentioned that there was a limited run of
    the 205 4wd's. When were they released and at what $$'s. Did any make
    it out of the EEC (to Oz or NZ perhaps) ?
    

    .449�    P.S In an earlier note it was mentioned that there was a limited run of
    .449�    the 205 4wd's. When were they released and at what $$'s. Did any make
    .449�    it out of the EEC (to Oz or NZ perhaps) ?    
    
    Rob,
    
    Peugeot made a batch of 200 205T16 in order to comply with the official
    FISA group B regulations for rally cars. I don't remember exactly how
    many cars were made. Peugeot made their own T16 and raced them. The
    road going version was just to make the numbers and was the most
    unpractical road car ever made. I know a few guys who bought one.
    Basically they've had to setup and tune everything.
    
    There are a few cars for sale around here. But the major problem is
    
    ... spares. There haven't been many made and they have been exhausted
    so if you buy one, be prepared to rebuild/remachine everything by
    yourself.
    
    Good luck (and happy new year)
    
    Patrick 

    re: .-1, .-2
    
    Pug made more than 200 of the T16 as I recall. They spent a lot of time
    in warehouses until they eventually all sold. Although only obliged to
    make 200 and 20 of the T16 Evolution II, I think they made more of the
    E2 model as well.
    
    None ever made it to the antipodes...
    
    -Dave.
    
    ps. Is the Pug in Oz catalysed properly, or is there still a
    significant power loss of the Oz spec 1.9 205?

    Hi Dave,
    
    >None ever made it to the antipodes...
    
    Bit of a downer, and with all our great road's 'n' all !
    
    >ps. Is the Pug in Oz catalysed properly, or is there still a
    >significant power loss of the Oz spec 1.9 205?
    
    I believe the car pumps out 130hp wwhen running on 96 octane unleaded.
    A bit less on the "standard" unleaded. The shop at which I have the car
    serviced spent some time getting it running good on the lower octane
    (it only lightly "pings" under heavy load in low rev's). What have you
    observed with thw catalyzing ? I'll check further into it.
    
    One other thing,how can you tell which factory te car came from, is
    there a plaque (if so.. any pointers) or serial number coding ? I've
    been told that the cars are made in Coventry (UK) as well as France. As
    it's a RHD car, I've assumed it's a UK build.
    
    Hope Christmas/New Year was a good one fo all !
    
    Cheers
    
    	Rob
    been told 

    Rob,
    
    I'm actually an ex-owner of a 309gti (same motor and trans as the 205,
    slightly better ie. less nervous chassis, less sexy shape though). Not sold
    in Oz though. Strangely enough today I had a drive in my old car which I 
    had sold to a friend before buying my current audi quattro. Fond memories
    of this car - it doesn't have the absolute performance of the audi or its 
    (amazing) road holding or build quality, but it's a beautiful chassis, 
    responsive engine, and a good gearbox ie. a great point-to-point car. They
    don't import the quattro to oz either.
    
    All right hand drive models were build in Rydon (sp?) in the UK.
    
    Happy driving !
    
    -Dave.

    Ryton
    

    
    Re.433
    
    Appears that the car has turned up in Wolverhampton. It's now B reg and
    right hand drive!

    
    Has any one got a 205CTI out there?
    I would like to here your comments as I have just purchased one.
    I am finding it excessively noisey ; bar that excellent and good fun
    
    
    Simon

    I had the same problem after I rebuilt the engine on my 405 SRI ,the
    only thing I can think of is an article I read somewhere saying that
    this was an inherent problem with the D6A engine and the high idle you
    mention may have been a curative measure to cure a flat spot as is the
    usual case . As for the stalling check (or have someone check) the
    connections to the injection thermistor (I also had this problem).

    After breaking down in my VW camper ('72) yesterday my girlfriend insisted
    that we would finally get a decent working car. I had to agree..
    
    I am thinking of a diesel car, more specific a 205 diesel. The
    autotrader seems to show plenty for sale. We're looking at spending
    �1500-2000. Is there anybody who can tell if this is a sensible choice?
    What do I look out for when buying one? (I know the VW's aircoooled
    engine well but diesel is different!)
    
    Any comments much appreciated
    
    Derek 

    
    
    Fairly safe bet I think.  The steering on the older ones was a bit
    heavy, not sure if the newer ones have power assistance.  They seem to
    handle great with all that weight over the front wheels, and performance
    from the turbo diesels is good for this sort of car (IMO). Reliability-
    wise they seem a reasonable choice as well...
    
    Not sure if you'll be able to get one for the 1500-2000 you want to
    spend though; anybody else know recent prices for these?
    
    Chris.

    For �1500 - �2000 you are looking at 10 year old 205 diesels with probably
    150k miles plus.
    
    The good thing about diesels is that the engines can cope with high
    mileages. The bad news  is that people normally get diesels because
    they _do_ high mileages.
    
    Royston

..but I didn't know you needed to wear them inside !!!!

Has anyone else had experience with water ingress on a Pug 205 ?

My car is currently soaking wet in the rear passenger footwells and I can't
see if the water is coming in through the doors and finding the lowest point,
or coming through the floor-pan. The biggest disadvantage is that the carpet
seems to be in one moulded piece, and fitted before the seats and trims - so
any attempt to look underneath for holes in the floor-pan is going to mean
seats out and trim off. Quelle bummer !

Any tips before I resort to stripping the interior ? The last thing I want to
do is strip all the trim and seats out and then hear from the panel that this
is a notorious problem when the winkie-grommet slides off the over-compensator
grudgeon and merely requires a mild slap with Churchill Toll No.785492.


Thoughts or remedies ?

Thanx,
TKS

    Hi,
    
    It might seem like an obvious point but have you done any work on it
    recently?
    
    Examples are anything to do with the doors, removing and refitting
    trim, etc. Have you removed the inner plastic sheeting from the doors
    or had accident damage repaired?
    
    Peter
     
    

    Looks interesting, I will not be doing that many miles myself. I just
    want to be able to rely on the car, or to be more precise my girlfriend
    does. This weeks autotrader had quit a few in the �1500-2000 bracket.
    Are there any other diesels worth considering. I would like a Golf but
    they are either �500 or well over the �2000. (Again based on this weeks
    trader)
    
    Thanks for you replies
    
    Derek

    Derek
    
    You may want to check out older Fiesta 1.6D. There seem to be
    plenty out there in your price range and I would think it would
    be cheaper to run (cheaper parts etc.).
    
    Royston

    I own a 205 diesel, 130,000 D-reg. I didnt think I could get �2000 for
    it :-)
    
    Drive a few diesels, then try the 205. Its the BEST (IMO).
    
    Its a heavy engine alright, but boy, does it damp down the ride. The
    car feels like a much bigger vehicle. It doesnt suffer from the
    tickover vibration, which can irritate, as much as Ford/Vauxhall/etc.
    Unusual for a small car, it is a good motorway cruiser.
    
    Peugeot have made this engine for years & supplied it to other
    manufacturers, so it well-proven. Also the 205 is well-proven & they
    make a good combo.
    
    Yes, the steering is heavy for a small car, more so with low profile
    tyres if fitted.
    
    Cost-of -ownersip is low. The engine has a very long life. I've had
    minor problems, mainly suspension, but nothing terminal or out of the
    ordinary over 130K, e.g Clutch cable, rubber cv boots, ball joints etc.
    Service interval 6000 miles, & change the cam-belt every 50,000/5 years max.
    
    Fuel economy : I owned a petrol Fiesta before the 205 & the 205 uses only �
    the amount of fuel.
    
    The only rust spot I've seen is under the tipping rear seat. This was
    soon halted once found. There is generous body protection underneath so
    the 205 lasts well despite its relatively thin panels.
    
    Beware oil leaks from the camshaft, though this is straight forward to
    fix.
    
    I'll let you know when mine's for sale :-)
    
    Tony.

    Other cars that use the same engine as the 205 (and perhaps in your
    price range)... The Citr�en AX, Metro.... Also there is the Peugeot 309
    which falls in to the category of "more car for your money" which does
    not necessarily mean better of course.
    
    The Fiesta is a non-starter IMHO.
    
    Reargards,
    
    Stephen

    
    Re .last
    
    The AX doesn't use the 205 diesel engine (certainly not older ones
    anyway). It's a 1400cc unit. Maybe as good though.
    
    Richard.
    
    

    
    I've just paid 3995 for a J 1992 205 turbo diesel with 118,000 miles on the
    clock and it goes like a train. The interior is immaculate, the body, a
    bit chipped. As is the windscreen. It was sold by a Peugeot dealer with
    full service history and an extended 12 month warranty. Not a bad deal
    although it needs a couple of minor niggles fixed under warranty.
    BTW, the Glass guide for this car says the trade price is just under 5
    grand with average mileage.
    
    Bill

The 205 diesel uses the XUD engine in 1769cc form, shared with BX17, 
BX turbo, and Rover 218/418 turbo, 405 earlier turbo, 309 turbo.

The XUD 1905cc is used in the 309, BX19, both non-turbo, Xantia normal 
and turbo, 405 normal and later 405 turbo. Rover 218/418 non-turbo 
306 turbo and non.

The AX and 106 and metro use the TUD engine in 1360 cc recently upped to 
1560cc.

I used to have BX non-turbo's. My wife currently has the AX 1360 (1.4) it
goes like a little rocket, shaming many petrol driven cars of similar size.

Richard

As far as I know the car is straight. (no pun intended)

Full Service History, 1 previous owner, who I chatted to before buying the car
so to the best of my knowledge there's been no disturbance of trims, seals, or
linings. Soon will be :-{

Just thought I check in here first to see if there was a history of leaky Pugs. 

TKS

I've just stumbled across this note stream...

My father's 205 had a nasty leak for nearly a year (it was only a year old).  
He had a look on a number of occasions, and couldn't find the source.  In the 
end, he took it to a dealer, who removed the doors and wings, and finally found 
a leak in some sealing somewhere or other.  They claimed to have fixed it, but 
it kept coming back.  Eventually, after about 11 months, they got it fixed. My 
father knows the dealer, and after a few months, he was chatting to this guy 
when he was told that there had been over a dozen cars returned to the garage 
with the same problem.  Looks like a case of crappy Peugeot build quality.



p.s...The symptoms were : a soaking carpet in rear footwells.

    .... but somebody had to tell me this when I had a leaky Fiat.
    
    (This will probably cause some ridicule from some quarters, but this
    method worked and that's the main thing.)
    
    The leak that I had was pooling up in the rear nearside footwell (and I
    eventually traced it to a leak in the seal for the rear window).
    
    I took the back seat out, lifted out the carpet and underlining (which
    does unfortunately mean removing the front seats as well (temporarily).
    
    Mopped up any water and made sure the area was dry before (and here is
    where the guffaws come in) covering the rear footwell are in talc !.
    
    Any powder substance will do (sawdust for example), but I found this to
    be the one time that I was able to put that bottle of Brut that my Aunt
    Nellie had given me for Christmas (again).
    
    Next step is to either park the car outside in the rain, or drive
    around in the rain, etc....
    
    The idea behind this is that when your leak starts leaking again you
    should see marked out in the layer of talc, the direction the water is
    coming from; so, if, for example you have a leaky door seal, you should
    get a trail marked out from the direction of the door.
    
    (In my case, there were a few round circles in the talc, which either
    meant some aliens had landed in my car (like they do in them corn
    fields) or the water was dripping in through the seal of the back
    window.)
    
    I guess if you end up with no drip marks or water trails, then the leak
    is coming from underneath the car ??
    
    The one mistake I did make however, was to use rather too much talc....
    It took ages to get rid of the smell of Brut from the car, but at least
    the leak got sorted !!
    
    Reargards,
    
    Stephen

    With our Citroen AX [3 door jobby] someone backed into it and we had
    the rear section knocked out and resprayed. Only problem was that the
    garage didn't put back the rear window rubber housing correctly and it
    wasn't sealed tight. When we had one of those monsoon type rain falls
    here I found water on the back "shelf". It was a sod to get it back
    seating properly but it looks like we managed it in the end. 
    
    On the same car sometime ago [I hope it's fixed for good now] the
    "seal" either side of the passengers window wasn't doing it's job on
    the outside. Result was that water went down the outside of the window
    and then ran inside the door and out the bottom into the car because
    it's parked on an angle. 
    
    Dave

re. .461

This is what I was afraid of - not so much because of the problem, but the fix.

As the car is outside any warranty with the dealer (and I'm the second owner) the
thought of the labour cost for Peugot to have all the doors and wings off,
and re-seal the fault is enough to scare me off doing anything through them.

I like the idea of the talcum-trail though so if I have an idle moment I might 
try to trace the source and plug it with a large dose of mastic.

Thanks for all the feedback.
TKS

    Does your 205 have a sunroof?  I had a similar problem on a 405. 
    Turned out that one of the drain tubes in the sunroof pan hadn't been
    connected.  When I parked the car the "wrong" way round on the drive,
    all the water that leaked past the sunroof seal ran to the corner with
    the disconnected drain, down the inside of the door pillar, and filled
    up the driver's footwell.
    
    John

Depending on the age of the car, it may be worth trying the old "Goodwill 
Gesture" routine, in which you kick up a fuss in the showroom of a dealer, 
blurting out loads of garbage about how their cars should come with optional 
umbrellas etc.  It gives prospective customers a bad impression of the marque, 
and makes the assistants a tad uneasy.  This worked for my father, who got the 
work done for nothing, in the end, as a goodwill gesture from *Peugeot* - not 
the dealer.

    
    	I've suffered this problem of water in the footwells too. When
    it happened the whole floor was absolutely soaked, along with the
    seats, dash etc. I didn't need talcum powder to figure out who'd left
    the roof on my BMW down ........ she hasn't done it again (yet!)
    
    JBG 8-)

Peeps, Thanks for the responses - the answers are as follows:

	- No it doesn't have a sunroof so thats one off the checklist
	- Agree that "kick-up-a-fuss in the showroom gets results" but at
	  the end of the day they're not bothered about selling 205's anymore
	  and the car is over three years old now so the'll just claim age,
	  possible prang, "just ignore the loony in the corner", etc.etc.

We made a concerted effort last weekend to track down the source of the leak, and
I've a sneaking suspicion that it's coming from the hole in the floor-pan where 
the gear-selector goes through.  This is based on the water accumulating first in
the front passenger footwell, right next to the gear selector cowling. I think
the water in the rear footwells was a red herring brought about by the car being
normally parked on a steep hill and the water running through front-to-back.

At the end of the day I just want to know where the water is coming from.

TKS.


p.s watch "For Sale" for this car real soon !

    
    ..if you're parking it on steep hill check it's not coming through the
    Heater ducts into the footwell - I know nothing about Pug 205's but it
    happens on most cars if the drain hole for the heater/air collector
    gets blocked.
    
    Graham
    
    BTW if you park it the other way round does it stop ?

    When you're checking make sure that the plastic sheets that go between
    the door trim and the bare door are in place, are complete and are well
    sealed.
    
    These stop water coming through the door handles etc into the inside.
    
    Peter 

    Hi,
    
    My 205 happened to have this leaking problem. After several times of
    debugging, the leaking was coming from the back door (Are you 205 a
    GR?). you may try to get your inner board of the back door and let
    water go through your back door glass down, after 3-5 minutes you can
    find water come into your back seat and then your back floor. The
    reason was there is a hole on the back door which should be close by
    PEOGEUT but for somehow they didn't. Hope it helps. Good luck.
    
    JJ

	Increase the idle speed. Location of idle adjuster is to be 
	found in one of my earlier notes.

	The 205 has now been in production for over 10 years, which
	is an awful long time by modern standards.

	-John

    re stalling Pug
    
    this is a well-known feature of the GTi's - the 1.9 is even worse! i
    used to set the idle speed high, to about 1200 - this is easily done as
    the adjuster is handy (i wonder why?). also, at night, driving with
    parking lights only if you can seemed to help.
    
    ric

Had this once with a pug engined Citroen Visa. Took an awfull
long time to discover the exhause pipe joining the manifold was loose.....

I guess it was change in back-pressure, but it was definitely the cause.

Richard 

        I'm not sure what happened to the reply that sparked this
        stream - it seemed to get allocated an existing note number
        and has now disappeared up it's own existence!


�Note 35.481           Peugeot 205. One of the 80's legends.         481 of 481
�SEDSWS::OXFORD "if its too loud youre too old"       20 lines 
�18-MAY-1995 12:37
�                               -< Stalling Pug >-
�
        

	Found it again (by doing SET SEEN/BEFORE=TODAY)

Note 35.481           Peugeot 205. One of the 80's legends.           481 of 485
SEDSWS::OXFORD "if its too loud youre too old"       20 lines  18-MAY-1995 12:37
                               -< Stalling Pug >-


      I didn't have time to read all through the replies to this
    note so i'll apologise now if this question has already been asked.

    My girlfriends 1600 GTI keeps stalling. Pull up at a junction and
    it just dies, it starts again straight away but unless you keep revving
    it, it will die again. But it doesn't happen all the time, you could be
    driving around town for an hour with no problem, then it will start
    happeneing again. Its been to Peugeot who can't find anything wrong
    with it (suprise suprise), various tuners (krypton, sun etc), but it
    doesn't fail when on their machine. It has had a new throttle housing,
    the injectors cleaned, and a few other things that i can't remember at
    the moment.

    So any ideas of what to try next, its getting to be a pain in the arse
    to drive.



             Cheers Nick.
 

    �-< Conference corruption? >-
    
    Don't scare me like that Ian !
    
    Royston

    OK so I haven't waded though all the replies but has anyone up to date
    experience with running a 205 1.6 GTI ?
    
    My wife is very keen on getting one and we may be checking a few out
    shortly. 
    
    Any general advice or comments on running costs (insurance excepted)
    greatly appreciated.                       
    
    Royston

    A female point of view...
    
    Mine is an old one - C reg but still goes like a dream even after 132K
    miles.
    
    I get it serviced regularly and the CAM belt has been changed twice
    now.  I'm no car expert, but apparently this needs to be changed at
    approx every 60K miles or major damage happens.  Over the 5 years I've
    had it I've had lots of things replaced - radiator, disk brakes, all
    the hoses and the usual stuff which I suppose can be expensive.  I do
    approx 300 miles a week in it.
    
    For insurance I use Privilege (part of Direct Line) and they are a lot
    cheaper. Plus I've got an AA immobiliser fitted.
    
    I've been driving a Volvo 850 Estate recently and swapped back to PUG
    today.  It may not have power steering and may be a bit noisy but it's
    great to drive....
    
    I'm sure a car enthusiast would give you a more technical point of view
    but I love it and you can't beat it for whizzing round the lanes..
    
    ;-)
    
    josie

    Josie, Thanks for your comments. Thats very encouraging especially
    with such a high mileage.
    
    Royston

        Royston,
        
        I had one as a leasemobile for 2� years, one of the best cars 
        I've ever had - I still miss it now. No major problems
        at all, only the slight irritation of the stalling problem
        (see previous notes).
        
        Ian.

    Royston,
    
    I had a 205 GTI for a couple of years a while back. It too suffered the
    problems of persistent stalling. It can be very annoying indeed and
    it's important you test the car for this defect before you buy. If I
    remember rightly it mostly happened with a hot engine when decelerating
    from speed to a full stop.
    
    I loved the car when I had it. The front wheels can spin like mad if
    you plonk your foot down when pulling off and the fuel consumption is
    affected accordingly. I also experienced noticed brake wear at
    services (I'm sure this has nothing to do with my driving style. No, no
    I'm sure it hasn't). Having said all this I would certainly recommend
    it and for the extra fun go for the 1.9 rather than the 1.6.
    
    What happened to it that I should give it up ? Well, I went for a
    tumble down a country lane in it...though you probably don't want to
    hear that.
    
    Cheers,
    Jonathan

    Roy,
    
    I'd check power steering, as the 205 and the Renault 5 Turbo were both
    very heavy to steer when parking around town at low speeds etc.
    
    Greg

    Thanks guys for the comments.
    
    Re stalling prob. I'll watch out for this.
    
    Re Power steering (or lack of). This shouldn't be a prob as we are used
    to the RS Fiesta which had _very_ heavy steering. In fact the RS Fiesta
    would be the preferred car but there aren't many around for sale.
    
    Royston

    I had a Gti 1.9, which I still rate as the most fun car I've ever
    driven. DONT try the 1.9 if you intend buying a 1.6, because you'll
    end up spending the extra cash on the 1.9 (it happened to me!).
    
    I good friend of mine has the 1.4 XS, which she has had ten years, and
    it just keeps going and going. The dealer reckons the 205 is by far the
    best (as in most reliable) car Pug make.
    
    Choose a good one, and I think you'll be very happy together.
    
    Al.

     I wouldn't recomend the 205's heater though, so if your thinking of
    using it it sub zero tempratures buy a woolly hat and some gloves.

    I have a 205 GT (the 5-door version of the XS) which has just passed the 
    118,000 mile mark. It's a D-reg and has been basically trouble-free.... 
    I've had to replace the front wheel tracking arm and bushes (whatever they 
    are) at around the 100,000 mark; it has a timing chain, and is still
    using the original one); the battery is as old as the car (if that
    counts for anything) I've only needed to buy 6 tyres for my Pug
    (it had the original tyres on the rear axle right up to 80,000 miles...
    I only replaced them because the tyre walls were starting to crack...
    the tread was still legal); I replaced the clutch at around 87,000
    miles; paintwork is still pretty much as good as new; and the car has
    only ever let me down once whilst "on the road" as it were (a problem
    to do with the afore-mentioned clutch). 
    
    The good thing about the GT and the XS is that you don't take the
    insurance hit of the GTi. Visually, the XS with a set of the right alloys,
    can be made to look exactly the same as the GTi.
    
    Around the 40-60mph mark, the GT/XS have the same acceleration
    times as the 1.6GTi.  I agree the gearing does make the car noisy at 
    motorway speeds, but equally the 205 is the first car I have ever had 
    that doesn't require you to change down in 99% of overtaking situations.
    
    I still have a lot of fun driving the car (that and cranking the
    stereo allows you to ignore the high-speed noise) and I have yet to
    regret handing back, say, a rental car to AVIS, and wishing I could swap
    it for my Pug...
    
    One of the main reasons I haven't bought a new(er) car (or joined the lease
    scheme) is that I would simply be swapping number plate prefixes,
    for a newer 205... or maybe a 106 Rallye. If the car was giving me a
    lot of grief (servicing, etc) I'd get rid of it... but it ain't so I
    won't. 
    
                                  Reargards,   Stephen

	The 205 heating and ventilating was much criticised on the
	early models, but it was revised, circa 87/88, and the later
	cars are fine. 

	Power steering came to the Gti as an option about 90, and
	soon became standard. Early non Gtis had a different, and
	inferior, gearbox to the later models, but I'm not sure of
	the time of the change (trawl earlier notes for detail).

	-John

    Yup, the early cars (of which mine was one) didn't have very good
    heating at all. The fan would not turn off for one thing.
    The other thing was the interior, which was very flimsy - this was 
    redesigned in the face lift mentioned earlier.
    One other thing I would avoid (in hindsight) is the sliding glass
    sun roof which was next to useless (too noisy), and leaked.
    
    So, what you want is a post-facelift car, 1.4, 1.6 or 1.9, without
    a factory fitted glass sun roof.  You can't go wrong :*)
    
    Al.

    Yes I have to say I do find the fact that the fan is always going very
    irritating.  It's always humming in the background.
    
    Just have to turn up the radio really.
    
    josie

    
    This may be of interest to some one with 205 1.6 GTi.
    I recently just solved the renown stalling problems on the GTi engine.
    Contrary to prior notes the answer is not to turn up the idling speed.
    
    The cause and solution is as follows -
    There is a throttle switch located on the input housing next to the air
    ajustment screw; this throttle switch should close its contacts when
    there is no pressure on the accelerator. When slight pressure is
    applied to the accelerator the switch contacts are then opened. The
    fundermental problem of the stalling is when this operation is not
    functioning and the switch is not being closed when your foot is off
    the accelerator. 
    When the throttle switch is working correctly the thottle stop screw
    should not be touched as this will mess up the throttle switch
    alignment.
    I set my idling speed up using the air ajustment screw.
    
    This may help someone ; it certainly has stopped me having some very
    frustrating moments in traffic with my car.
    
    ..Simon