Conference vmsnet::car$note:carbuffs

About 6 months ago, my 6-month old replacement water pump failed.
The mechanics replaced it at no charge (we split the labor).

Today I think it just failed again.  It's being towed back
to same mechanic as I type this.

Symptoms: Noticed smoke coming out from hood at stop light on 
DW hgwy at lunchtime.  Got to Home Depot parking lot
and saw antifreeze leaking in a big way.  Overflow reservoir
was empty.

The reason I think it's the water pump again (instead of a mere
busted hose) is that for the past week or so I've been procrastinating 
about dealing with a new engine noise (when will I ever learn not to 
procrastinate!).  The engine has been sounding deeper and louder.  
It's an old car (88 Old Ciera, 142,000 mi), so I tend to chalk a lot
up to age.  I knew that that noise had occurred before, but I couldn't 
recall when/how/where/why. (the powers of denial work well with 
procrastinators!) But as the tow truck pulled away, I finally remembered 
that the louder, deeper engine noise happened for a few weeks before
the first water pump failed 6 months ago.

If it is the water pump, it *must* be more than a coincidence to 
get two defective ones in a row, right?

Even if he replaces it at no charge, I surely don't want to pay for 
any labor again.  

What would be good questions to ask (demands to make?) when I speak 
with him?

How do I know I'm getting new parts?  What brand should I insist on
this time?    Could he be installing the wrong type of water
pump for my car?  Do they come in different "types"?

I ate two pumps about a month apart. Crappy cheap rebuilt units. It a luck of
the draw on those. They usually have a lifetime warrenty but not on labor ;^(
So you can spend $30 for a rebuilt and they could last you the life of the car
or spend $70 for an OEM one and have it fail in two months. Can't win.

Or, the belts are put on WAY to tight and causing early bearing failure.

roger.

I second the crappy rebuilts.  There are even crappy new waterpumps out there.
I bought an offbrand for both of our Volvos and they each lasted around a year
which is 12K. The originals went well over 100K.  A Volvo mechanic then told
me I'm wasting my money with anything but a Volvo OEM waterpump.  It's $85
vs $25 but my labor counts for something too.

Jim

Well, back from the shop... it was the water pump.  2 failed
pumps 6 months apart!!!  

The opinion about the belts too tight causing early bearing
failure seems right on.  This time and the time before he 
mentioned bearing failure.   It makes more sense then the 
possibility of coincidence of two bad pumps. The previous 
two pumps were new not rebuilt. The brand was Carter.  This 
time he put in a Napa.

He claims the Carters were $70 and the Napa was $100 and he
swears it's "not my fault... I use quality parts...I have to
pay the guys labor...". Labor & antifreeze was $143.  I moaned 
and groaned and finally got them to split it in half.   But 
now that I read about "too tight belts", I feel I shouldn't 
have to pay anything now, nor the time before.

But, how can I prove it?  Does 6 months seem about right for 
way too  tight belts to cause early bearing failure?  Well, I 
suppose it depends on exactly what "way too" means :-)

Better yet, how can I prevent it from happening in another 
6 months?!!?!

He said he called and complained to the manufacturer and
they told him it must have been the "tension".  I suppose 
that's the same as "way too tight belt".    I think he is 
expecting trouble getting his money back on the alleged
defective part.

    Water pumps can last a long time, or one day.  But to lose two
    in a row means something is probably helping the pump fail.
    
    Tension, is #1:
    Next up would be corrosion or junk in the water jacket.  This junk
    makes its way through the pump and wastes the impeller.
    
    Addressing tension, if it's a serpentine belt (one belt driving
    all accessories), it's next to impossible to overtighten the belt.
    Something is bent, a pulley or something that's vibrating the hell
    out of the water pumps nose.
    
    If they're "V" belts, you CAN overtighten the belt, but it's easy
    to check.  Press down on the belt in between two of the pulleys and
    check the tension.  There should be about 1/2 to 1.5" of slack
    depending on the distance between the pulleys.
    
    When the mechanic buttons up this job, look at the belts as the
    car is running.  There shouldn't be any wobble.  Once the car is
    shut off and cool, press down on the belts and check the tension.
    Finally if you're up to it, flush the cooling system.
    
    MadMike

    >Something is bent, a pulley or something that's vibrating the hell
    >out of the water pumps nose.
    
      If it is a serpentine belt, the pulley/tensioner could be on its
      way out.At about your mileage these things are due for replacement.
      This would cause a vibration/misalignment of the belt which could
      affect the water pump.Most likely the mechanic would have noticed
      this and recommended replacing it because he could make another $100 or
      so, but who knows.
    
                               Rich
                           
                                 

    I had 2 fail in about 6 months last year. Problem ended up being a
    blown head gasket. The extra pressure in the cooling system must take
    out the seal. This might explain your other symptoms like the noise.
    
    Orval

I took a look at the 88 Olds Cutlass yesterday after work.  The engine looked
like a GM 3.8L (+ or -) and it has a serpentine belt.  The belt appeared to be
set at the proper tension.  The job looked like it was done correctly. I
believe it just failed because the pumps that were installed were poor quality.
Hopefully, the NAPA pump will last longer.

My advice was if this one fails, take the car to a GM dealer and have an
OEM pump installed.  We figured the original GM waterpump lasted 8 years,
so how bad could the OEM replacement pumps be.

Jim 

Also, I looked up my records and saw that I had a new tensioner
installed 10/95 (with a new timing chain).  

Fwiw, the NAPA pump was $135 and the previous two pumps were CARTER @ $70.

Thanks all for such great help.  I'm no longer as frustrated/angry
with the mechnanics.  I see now there's a big grey area.  And I
see that the dreaded GM $ervice $hop may have its virtues. 

It is the 3.8L engine.  great car.  I look forward to many
more carefree (!) miles with a little help from CARBUFFS  :-)

1. If the waterpump "weeps" antifreeze from under and just behind the pully, you
   have lost the inner water seal. Normal wearout.

2. If the pump sound fine, and no weeping, but just cannot keep up, then the    
   impeller is gone. Normal wearout but if it happens prematurly, you have crud 
   in your water jacket from previous impeller or major rust problems.

3. If the water pump sounds like it has marbles in it or if you take the belts  
   off and when you turn it, it squeals, the bearing is toasted. Normal wearout 
   but if it happens prematurly, your belts we toooo tight.

And all three of the above can happen right away on a crappy rebuild. They could
have nick'd the seal during assembly, the could have used cheap parts, they
could have pressed in the bearing wrong, etc... 

>>1. If the waterpump "weeps" antifreeze from under and just behind the pully, you
>>   have lost the inner water seal. Normal wearout.

I showed her the weep hole.  It's clearly visible on this pump.

Jim