Conference vmszoo::rc

For informational purposes.

I called Airtronics yesterday regarding conversion of their Vanguard
6 channel PCM radios to 6 meters.  They do not do conversions of this 
model at this time.  They may have plans to do so early next year.  So 
much for that thought.

So, I ordered the radio anyways from some outfit in CA.  It seems that 
most mail order houses sell this radio for about $40 cheaper than Tower. 
Another myth shattered.  The down side is that nobody seems to have them 
in stock.  Oh well, I wasn't in a hurry anyways.

-Loren

  In a previous note I mentioned that I had ordered the Vanguard PCM 6 as
a replacement for my Futaba Conquest 4 channel AM radio.  I decided that it
would be good information (for anyone else who is going to be making a radio
purchase in the near future) to supply some of the specifics of the radio.

  Well I received the radio 3 days ago and I am very impressed with it.  The
feel and movement of the sticks is better than the Conquest, and the added
features make this seem like a switch from a VW bug to a Cadillac.  

  I paid $237.99 for the Vanguard from Omni models.  Since the order was
over $75, I did not have to pay shipping charges, so the total cost is $237.99.
(I paid $104.99 for the Conquest 2 years ago)

  The Vanguard will initially go into my Kadet Sr. for 2 reasons: 1 - as a test
bed for the new radio. 2 - I don't have any other planes in flying condition 
yet (good reasoning huh?  8^).

  I went with the Vanguard because it is on the AMA accepted radio list for
1991 compliance, it had all the features I was looking for in a new radio,
and I have heard complimentary things about it from other noters in this file.

  When I finally get around to using it in a plane I will give an update of
how I like it.  Until then I would welcome the comments of others who have
used the Vanguard radios (come on Snowman).


      Jim
  

    Maybe someone has experienced this before, and can confirm the bad
    news I probably already know.
    
    The problem is in the aileron dual rates. Even though low rates
    are cranked up pretty high, now that I've been shamed into doing
    some of the typical HTA type maneuvers, I noticed a problem. Whenever
    I go to high rates on the ailerons, the trim changes. The ailerons
    will deflect about 1/16th of an inch and the plane will turn off
    to the right.
    
    Problem is, it's not that cut and dried. If I check it out on the
    ground there's no movement. Take off, hit the high rates and off
    it goes. Land and check it out, and now they move. If I turn everything
    on with the radio alrady on high rates, it will work fine. Meaning
    it will stay on high rates with no trim changes. Flip back to low
    rates, and everything's fine. Go back to high rates, and off to
    the right it goes. Elevator dual rates are fine.
    
    If I'm not mistaken, the same thing happens in both the Fiesta and
    the WOT-4 (2 different receivers, same Xmitter). It soulds like
    the high rate circuit centering is off, but if that was the case,
    why can I turn the radio on with high rates active and have it work
    fine?
    
    Any idea's on what's going on here??????
    
    
    Steve
    
    BTW.....This is an Airtronics Vanguard 6 channel PCM
    
    
    

    If it were me, my first check would be the rate switch, which may 
    have a bad contact.  Its also one of the easier things to check or 
    replace, so I'd eliminate that before hunting for something more
    esoteric.  If I'm right, the switch would show some *some* resistance 
    when first thrown to the "high" position, but that resistance would 
    decrease over time as the contact settles in.  Any measurable 
    resistance would justify a new switch, but it would probably take 
    fifty or a hundred ohms to cause the problem you describe.

    Re: last-2, Steve,
    
    While I tend to agree with Bob's logic in .-1, I just want to remind
    you that replacing that switch constitutes tampering and voids any
    warranty as may exist on the radio.  My suggestion, unless yer' very
    comfortable with doing yer' own repairs, is to send it back to
    Airtronics or an authorized Airtonics service center along with a
    description of the problem (just as you did in .-2) and let the pros
    take care of it.  Just my $.02 worth.....
						 __
				|      |        / |\	   	       
      	         \|/		|______|__(o/--/  | \	   	       
      | |        00	       <|  ~~~  ____ 04 ---- | --------------------
    |_|_|        (O>o		|\)____/___|\_____|_/	   Adios amigos, Al
      |     \__(O_\_	        |	  |___/	 o	   (The Desert Rat)

    Bob/Al,
    
    	Thanks for the input. One thing I havn't done yet is call
    Airtronics. The expected answer is "send it back" but I might
    get some idea at least.
    
    	I'll probably wait till around the end of Sept. to send it back
    unless Air. can tell me something to do on my own. This is prime
    flying time and the radio will be gone at least a month once sent
    back. Sending it back won't ground me as I have a 4 channel I can
    install in either plane, but as long as that's the only problem,
    I can live with it for now.
    
    	Just thought I'd through the note in in case someone else had
    experienced the same problem.
    
    Steve

  Steve,


  I had the same problem with my Vanguard PCM 6ch.  I don't use the low
rates anymore so I don't do any switching any more.  Next time I fly I'll
see if it still does it.

  BTW - I don't use low rates any, but I'm sure my high rates are about equal
to your low rates 8^).



                 Jim

>>  .... I havn't done yet is call Airtronics. .... I'll probably wait 
    
    Even if you won't take the radio out of service, call them and discuss
    it.
    
    I had a broken antenna still under warranty that I endured until I got
    a spare, then I called with the expectation that I would have to meet
    the [expensive shipping] terms and conditions of the warranty.  I
    didn't.  They sent the new one on naught more than the call, while I
    put the broken one in an ordinary envelope and mailed it to them at an
    expense of 45 cents.
    
    Alton who is happy as a clam with Airtronics

    Airtronics promptly sent me the information I requested last week.

    The new 92745 is a 4 channel extension of the Vanguard FM receiver
    line.  I own and like two of the six channel 92765 units; I'll buy 
    two of these new ones this week.  All of these receivers are dual
    conversion and very narrow band.

    The 92745 weighs 1.03 ounces and measures 0.9 x 0.9 x 2.25 inches;
    that's about the size of my thumb!

    Tower carries it at $49, but it won't be available until the end 
    of the month.

    Adjacent channel rejection:  better than -81.3 dB @ +8.5 kHz
                                             -69.2 dB @ -8.5 kHz
                                 (AMA spec   -60 dB @ +/- 8.5 kHz)

    Image rejection:             -70.8 dB  (AMA = -60 dB)

    3OIP:                        +3.8 dBm  (AMA = better than -4 dBm)

    I'll admit to being overwhelmed by the information I just received on
    the Airtronics Infinity 600A.  I'll pass the information on to Kay and
    ask him to do a sensible evaluation.  But briefly:

    It doesn't have:

        frequency agility (later?)
        a clock (sorry, Kay)
        exponential rates 

    It does have:

        Vision programming features (it uses the ATRCS system)
        4 channel centering; 6 channel adjustment of both end points
        mixing, etc. up the kazoo
        4 model memory
        FAILSAFE (one of my hot buttons)
        glider AND power features (snap roll while crow?  :-) )
        able to assign [proportional] AUX as a second aileron channel
        switch assignability 

    They didn't tell me which receiver it uses.

    The printed availability information is scratched out and replaced by a
    hand-written "April 1991".  Incidentally, the transmitter electronics
    are manufactured in the US.

>    <<< Note 1186.11 by BRAT::RYDER "perpetually the bewildered beginner" >>>
>                   -< Airtronics Infinity 600A early specs >-
>
>    I'll admit to being overwhelmed by the information I just received on
>    the Airtronics Infinity 600A.  I'll pass the information on to Kay and
>    ask him to do a sensible evaluation.  But briefly:

I just received the info in the mail from Al.  Not a lot of info so I would
hardly call this an evaluation - but here's what I gleamed from it.

>    It doesn't have:
>
>        frequency agility (later?)
>        a clock (sorry, Kay)
>        exponential rates 

Correct - also it would appear to be marketed to the JR 347 and Futaba
Super Seven.

When comparing it against those two we can add at least one more item 
to the list above - It doesn't have Helicopter modes.

>    It does have:
>
>        Vision programming features (it uses the ATRCS system)
>        4 channel centering; 6 channel adjustment of both end points
>        mixing, etc. up the kazoo
>        4 model memory
>        FAILSAFE (one of my hot buttons)
>        glider AND power features (snap roll while crow?  :-) )
>        able to assign [proportional] AUX as a second aileron channel
>        switch assignability 

Yes - all of that plus a lot of minor things - adding up to being on
a technical level with the JR-347 and Futaba Super Seven.  They compare
it's features against two of their own systems (MD7SP and Spectra) and
also against the Futaba 7AUP.  This makes the feature list look pretty
impressive - if they compared it against the Vision and the JR-347 and
the Futaba Super Seven it would look more like one of the pack.  Of course
if the JR or Futaba listed all their Helo features then it would look
pretty bad.

I checked out (as best I could) the Vision-ness of the unit and it's close.
It is a combination of the logic from the Vision SP and the Vision P.  It
has some features from both - but it does not have all the features of the
Vision SP and I assume is also missing features from the Vision P.  For 
instance it does not have "reverse aileron differential on crow".

But it is pretty close to a Vision and programs approximately the same
(it uses a new ATRCS system and the same arrangement of LCD display and
6 button format).  It has memory for 4 airplanes (one more then the Vision P
and the same as the JR-347 and Futaba Super Seven). 

Of course the thing that catches everyone's eye is the styling of the
case - not sure I like it but basically it looks like a black Ford Tarus(sp)
Station Wagon.  I played with a proto at the last WRAM show and at that time
they had dual rate switches too close to the sticks.  If you have fat fingers
when you advance the throttle it turns off the dual rate.  The guy who
pointed this out to them at the booth had much bigger fingers than me.  I
would not assume they have re-designed around that unless I got to hold a new
one.  They didn't act receptive to his input at the WRAM show.  But if
you were at a contest against a JR-347 and Futaba Super Seven and the CD
gave you all a frequency pin and they were all for the same frequency guess
what would happen?

All three planes would crash - but...

When the CD runs out of range so you can't throw your transmitters at him
you will still be able to tag him with yours.  The Infinity radio is infinitely
more aerodynamic than any other transmitter on the market.  I think it might
even skip on water!

>    They didn't tell me which receiver it uses.

I assume the FM version uses a 6 channel FM receiver that they have had
for a few years.  I have 3 of these for flight packs for my Vision.  But
I would bet eventually they will market it with the new 4 channel micro
receiver in a "Glider package".

The PCM version is another story.  They have two choices here.  They
make two protocol PCM systems that are not compatible.  So we can assume
that the new radio will be either compatible with the PCM from the Vanguard
series or the PCM from the Vision/Quantum series.

The Vanguard receiver is a 6 channel unit.  The Vision/Quantum receiver
is a 8 channel unit.

If they take the cheap way out they (1) have a receiver on the shelf that
will work.  Or they could (2) ship an 8 channel unit. Orrrrrrrr they
could (3) introduce a new 6 channel unit with Vision/Quantum protocol.

I hope for number 3.  That would make available a lower priced PCM that
I could use as a flight pack for the Vision.

>    The printed availability information is scratched out and replaced by a
>    hand-written "April 1991".  Incidentally, the transmitter electronics
>    are manufactured in the US.

I'm not sure electronics manufacture in the US is a feature - but I like
the idea that the ATRCS guys are a bunch of sailplane programming hackers
on the west cost and they use a 16 bit CPU.

One thing to remember tho - it's my understanding that this is only the
first Infinity - the 600A.  If it is successful we should be able to expect
800A (8 channel), 600H (Helo), etc. using the same box and increasing the
ROM/RAM, features, frequency switching, etc.

In a direct comparison against the JR-347 and Futaba Super Seven I would
rate the three in terms of features this way.

1.  JR-347
2.  Futaba Super Seven
3.  Airtronics Infinity 600A

Now if you talk about cheap flight packs - then I would have to reverse
the list.  Futaba sells 6 channel FM receivers for less than RCD and their
new 4 channel Micro receiver is only $49.00

If your primary concern is Gliders - I'd give the edge to Airtronics.
If your primary concern is Helicopters - I'd give the edge to JR.
If your primary concern is Pattern - I'd give the edge to Futaba.

The reason for the above 3 statements is purely based on the lists of who
used what at big contests.  Perhaps has more to do with history then 
present design excellence.

Soooooooo - FISHER - if you didn't have any radios (or if non of them
were legal at the NATs!) which radio would you buy?

Tough question.
They are all good radios and if someone purchases any one of the
above they would be a happy camper.  But it is easy to have a love
hate relationship with this new radio technology.

If money was NO object.

I would purchase all three.  I would use the JR Transmitter with
the Airtronics Receiver and the Futaba Servos.

Naw - then I wouldn't have PCM.  Hmmmmmmm.

I wonder what will be announced next month.

Basically I like JR transmitters but they have no dual conversion
receivers on the AMA list (correct me if I am wrong).  Deep in my
heart I think ABC&W is 1991 safe - but I would like to hear an
expert confirm it.  I like their servos fine but they usually
cost significantly more then Futaba equivalents (or did in the recent
past).

I like Airtronics Receivers and appreciate their attitude during
the 1991 changes.  But I don't like the quality I've seen in
their servos.  I like their connectors better then JR and Futaba.

I like Futaba in general but I didn't appreciate their attitude
during the 1991 changes.  I like their servos.  I don't like
their connectors and charging jacks.  I like their receivers
but they cost significantly more then Airtronics or RCD and make
it real expensive to buy flight packs - especially PCM - $200 for
one receiver.

So was this a review or rambling?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    A rambling good review Kay.
    
    My local hobby shop says that Airtronics told them that the Infinity
    would be available by "late Jan." None of us really believe that,
    with the Legend experience under our belts, but who can really say..
    
    FWIW, the same hobby shop proprietor and his wife, just won a free
    trip to Hawaii courtesy of Great Planes. During a recent promo
    period they sold more products distributed by G.P. than any other
    hobby shop in the country. Not bad, considering the size of their
    customer base.
    
    Terry

>>  compared it against the Vision and the JR-347 

    These are exactly the comparisons I'd like to have.  If I remain
    gainfully employed (Twice I asked for the package and got refused, but
    if I get it now, I cannot afford new toys.), then I'll be buying one of
    these three.  In the case of the Vision and the JR, I'd normally be
    using the Airtronics FM receivers.  If the Infinity uses the Vanguard
    PCM protocol, I'd use the PCM receivers.   (I won't spend Vision
    receiver level bucks just for PCM and FAILSAFE.)

    Kay, would you have the time (you have the savvy) for a detailed
    comparison?  I don't have the savvy.  The Vision manual confuses the
    Hell out of me.

>>  Futaba sells 6 channel FM receivers for less than RCD and their
>>  new 4 channel Micro receiver is only $49.00

    I think you meant Airtronics, not Futaba.

    Alton, the ultimate nitpicker

>    Kay, would you have the time (you have the savvy) for a detailed
>    comparison?  I don't have the savvy.  The Vision manual confuses the
>    Hell out of me.

Well - er - that's tuff.  Other than some esoteric functions like
"reverse aileron differential in crow" which I only picked up on because
it has always caught my fancy - I'm not sure I could go into much more
detail - even if I had one.  Basically it has some advantages and some
disadvantages over the Vision SP.

Infinity Advantages:

1.  It if very frustrating to attempt to use the Vision SP with a power
    plane - mostly because of the lack of trim on the low end only for
    the throttle (Vision SP flap stick).  This of course is solved in
    the Infinity completely by a power mode.  
2.  Switch assign-ability is in the Infinity but not the Vision SP.  It
    is in the Vision P but that is not what we are comparing.
3.  It looks like they have had a chance to re-think the menus and improve
    the human engineering (very slightly) in the infinity.
4.  I hope they fixed some of the bugs in the vision.  For instance by
    adding mixes you can cause servos to go beyond what you set up in the
    limit settings.  For instance you can set the left aileron center and
    both end points.  When you add flap to aileron coupling (for crow) it
    can actually move the aileron too far up and bind the linkage that you
    thought you already set up when you did the end point adjust.

Infinity Disadvantages:
1.  Only 6 channels.  I know 6 channels is a lot for a sailplane and I
    can't say that I personally will ever use more than 6 but lots of
    glider pilots do.  Consider when you use 4 or 6 servos in the wings.
    One on each aileron and one on each flap and optionally one on each
    outboard flap.  This configuration is supported in the Vision and
    each servo takes a channel - no Y connectors because you want aileron
    differential and crow landings,  the flaps are separate to allow 
    flaperon control, etc.  

Disadvantages of both Infinity and Vision SP.
1.  No clock.
2.  No exponential controls
3.  Storage for 4 models is not enough
4.  No built in tachometer

Advantages of both Infinity and Vision SP.
1.  Excellent on board battery and battery warning.  Much better than
    my Futaba 9VAP in time airborne and time of advance Tx battery warning.
2.  Weight and feel.  My vision is much lighter and has a much better
    feel than my Futaba 9VAP.
3.  Styling - both these radios (and especially the new Infinity) are
    the nicest looking transmitters around.  Don't start laughing.  We
    all make our model aircraft building decisions based on emotion.  
    I built it because I "love it's looks" - etc.  
  
>>>  Futaba sells 6 channel FM receivers for less than RCD and their
>>>  new 4 channel Micro receiver is only $49.00
>
>    I think you meant Airtronics, not Futaba.
>
>    Alton, the ultimate nitpicker

Correct - thanks for catching that error.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    The price I've seen quoted on the new Airtronics 4 chan. micro
    rcvr. is $99, not $49. I saw it in one or more of the latest
    issues of MA, MB, RCM.
    
    I hope that the PCM protocol of the Infinity is compatible with
    the Vision rather than the Vanguard, as this would give more
    flexibility if swapped. Of course if you owned only a Vanguard,
    you'd disagree, but owning both I've found the Vanguard to be too
    limited in function for most of my large glider projects, so it's
    relegated to hand launch and electric duties.
    
    BTW, the Vision does have two assignable switches. The flight mode
    switch and the rudder percent-of-travel switch can be swapped.
    
    One other minor point. Lets hope that the Infinity has the neck
    strap mounting lug attached at the same balance point as the Vision
    rather than the Vanguard. The former keeps the antenna out away
    from the plane when using two hands to launch. The latter allows
    the antenna to swing in against the wing.
    
    Terry

>   <<< Note 1186.17 by ELMAGO::TTOMBAUGH "20/20 Vision&walkin'round blind" >>>
>
>    The price I've seen quoted on the new Airtronics 4 chan. micro
>    rcvr. is $99, not $49. I saw it in one or more of the latest
>    issues of MA, MB, RCM.

$99 is list price.  Latest Tower Talk is $49.  Tower part number TA1734
4 channel Micro Dual Conversion Receiver.  Page 46.  Same page as the
listing of the Infinity 600A for $349 for FM and $379 for PCM.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    The Infinity uses the same receivers as the Vanguard series, 92765 for
    FM and 92965 for PCM.  This PCM receiver *is incompatible* with the
    Vision.

    Opinion:  I think they made the right decision with the wrong
    implementation.  With the current state-of-the-art in electronic
    storage and processing, they should have provided both PCM protocols as
    a run time choice.  It is possible that it is an undocumented feature,
    but I doubt it.  I have observed that the Sanwa product planning is
    not their strong suit.

    While at the S.W. regionals last weekend I had a chance to see,
    feel and fly for a few minutes, an Infinity 8 chan. This model won't
    be out until the end of the year, after the 10 chan. freq. synthesis
    model which will be out in 6-8 months.
    
    Tim Renaud was at the contest with new planes (see 399, later)
    and the prototype 8 chan. It looks just like the Infinity 6 chan.
    but with two more knobs on the front. The toggle sws. on the top
    have been moved to the top corners and are now rocker switches.
    
    The antenna is mounted in a pivoting gimbal which allows you to
    achieve the rakish antenna angles like the European radios.
    
    The door over the screen and keybd. has a clear panel.
    
    It's comfortable to hold and well balanced. I was flying Tim's personal
    Legend so didn't flip any switches.
    
    He expects the 8 chan. to sell for ~ $450 from Tower. He would'nt
    quote a price on the 10 chan., except "considerably more expensive."
    
    Terry
    

>    While at the S.W. regionals last weekend I had a chance to see,
>    feel and fly for a few minutes, an Infinity 8 chan. This model won't
>    be out until the end of the year, after the 10 chan. freq. synthesis
>    model which will be out in 6-8 months.

Terry - does it have a clock?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################
    

    re.21
    
    I didn't see a clock, but it's possible that there is a clock mode
    that can be displayed on the programming screen, why else have
    a window in the front panel ?
    

    Obviously you've never seen Eric put his plane in failsafe mode three
    mistakes high so he can reprogram some new feature during a flight ;^)

>    I didn't see a clock, but it's possible that there is a clock mode
>    that can be displayed on the programming screen, why else have
>    a window in the front panel ?

There are several reasons to have a window.  Some good, some bad.

Good ones are.

Tach as in my Futaba 9VAP    
Voltage as in several computer radios
Total time on as in several computer radios
Model name (or number) handy when you get it from impound and are flying
   multiple planes
Quick check of switches (I always zip to the bottom of the first menu
   on the Vision to see if any switches are not where they belong).

Bad ones are.

Time of day
Spinning prop on silly graphics airplane as in my Futaba 9VAP

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    I ordered two of the new Airtronics FM 4 channel DC receivers on
    January 16th at the Tower advertised price of $49.99 each.  They
    arrived on April 30th.  The current price is $70, so I'm happy!
    I checked them both out with my JR transmitter, and I'm all set!

    The total weight of two servos, the receiver, and one of my battery
    packs comes to 4.4 ounces, more than half of that in the battery.
    The receiver is 15/16ths square by 2.25 inches (sorry Ajai), so the
    battery limits the fuselage cross section to an even inch squared.

>    I ordered two of the new Airtronics FM 4 channel DC receivers on
>    January 16th at the Tower advertised price of $49.99 each.  They
>    arrived on April 30th.  The current price is $70, so I'm happy!
>    I checked them both out with my JR transmitter, and I'm all set!


  I received my micro receiver yesterday also.  But I had to pay the $70
for it.  As it turns out they made a major goof when they first put the
receiver in the Tower Talk.  The old 4ch AM receiver went for $49, the
new FM models were suppose to be the $69 price.  It looks like they may
have sold a few at the advertised price and then increased it to the new
$69!
  Now I just need to finish the new 2x4 fuse, or build a Spirit, or a 
Predator, or just "plane" old build! 8^)


                     Jim

>                    <<< Note 1186.26 by ASABET::CAVANAGH >>>
>                     -< Took a while but I got mine also >-
...
>  I received my micro receiver yesterday also.  But I had to pay the $70
>for it.  As it turns out they made a major goof when they first put the

Received mine last night also.  Also I paid $70 + 5.25 shipping.
That's what we get for not ordering sooner.

Speaking of pricing anomalies has anyone else noticed the price
of new OS .61 FSR-H RC Heli Engines in the last flyer = $80
I know it's not a long stroke but this seems too good to be true.

P.S.  Jim - the spelling program wanted to change the spelling of
      your node ASABET to ICEBOAT!

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

	While I was in the Hobby USA shop in Ashland, Mass, I noted that he
	was selling the Airtronics 4 channel Vanguard FM for just $118. That's
	a very competitive price, in case anyone is looking for a 4 channel
	radio. They also had the JR Max 4 and 6, and F*#^$% radios.

	He also had the CG Ultimate 10-300 kit for $111. Did Eric get his 
	there?

	Dave

Airtronics must've got busy last week, because I finally received
my Vanguard receiver and new TX module.  I'm on channel 15 now,
and while I know that my other channel 42 brethren don't read
this conference, I know they'll be happy the Ol' Pin Hog has
moved.

Anybody else on the new frequencies?
 

	Friday I finally received my newly upgraded Vanguard. It was AM, is
	now FM. I asked for any odd channel below 36, but not 21. I got 23.
	So I threw it in my Scooter and headed down to the CRRC picnic at
	Medfield Saturday. Sure enough, someone else there has 23! And he
	knows of another guy who just got 23. I tell 'ya, there's no justice...

	And just 30 minutes ago, I got a call from Tom at Airtronics. They
	received my troublesome Vanguard that used to be in the Scooter. They
	did a realignment, but essentially found nothing wrong with it. $15.
	That doesn't give me a comfortable feeling. If it's an intermittant
	problem, it may bite me again. I think I'll try it out in the Scooter
	before committing it to the new UltraSport.

	Dave

    The micro-receiver that I fried in mid July came home yesterday.  Three
    weeks including transportation between New Hampshire and California.

    In the letter enclosed with the receiver I clearly stated what I had
    done (see note 95.19).  Nonetheless, they fixed it on warranty; my only
    cost was the initial UPS charge; they paid the return.

    What they didn't bill for repair they earned in good will.  I'm happy.

    Alton, the lucky klutz

    Last spring Airtronics didn't charge me to check and tune my Vanguard.
    Turn around time was ~ 3 weeks also.
    
    In April I sent in the Vision for poor range problems. They replaced
    a power transistor, $1.90, $20 labor. Turn around time was 3 months!
    
    Now the rcvr. is back in to repair damage from the Legend crash.
    Luckily I have a backup rcvr.
    
    They do keep you informed when they receive the item, and if you
    call, they can tell you where your job is in the queue.
    Turn around time seems pretty dependent on time of year.
    
    Terry

in reply to Note 399.973  by Mark NEURON::ANTRY 

>>    How much are those micro Airtronics FM receivers anyway Al???

    Tower sells them for about $70.  Before the receivers were actually
    available, Tower made a mistake when they made the entry in their data
    base; they entered the new double conversion FM receivers at the price
    of an old, inferior receiver, namely $50 each.  I immediately ordered
    two, and Tower eventually honored the backorder price.  I wish I had
    ordered a lot more at that price.  The correct price is competitive
    with RCD's 5 channel RCD 535, although I would expect the 92745 to be
    trivially smaller (connector space dominates one dimension).  

    If you really want a small receiver and can live with the bandwidth,
    consider converting RCD's 2 channel, AM, ground frequency, "Shredder"
    receiver to 72 mHz.  Discard the case and the connector block and
    solder in a pair of 94501's, and that system will weigh less than
    helium.  Then the question is, "How close to the edge are you willing 
    to go with battery capacity?"

    Alton who completed the battery/receiver/servo re-re-ordering, thanks 
              to Dan's help in getting the de-installation started    :-)

    The Airtronics Infinity 600 was one of the news here in Germany at the
    Nuremberg fair for toys (???) in February. It is being imported by
    Simprop. A friend here is considering to buy one. Could someone give me
    current US prices on a) a complete system (what's included)?
                         b) transmitter alone (w/o module)?
    
    An alternative would be a JR X-347 where  we proved with Chad Leigh's
    system that it's fully compatible to GRAUPNER's JR line. But the
    Infinity looks so much nicer...
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Hartmut

>    Simprop. A friend here is considering to buy one. Could someone give me
>    current US prices on a) a complete system (what's included)?
>                         b) transmitter alone (w/o module)?

Tower prices = $359.99 IN600A FM
               $379.99 IN600A PCM
  Both have 4 each 102 servos.

>    An alternative would be a JR X-347 where  we proved with Chad Leigh's
>    system that it's fully compatible to GRAUPNER's JR line. But the
>    Infinity looks so much nicer...

I like Airtronics and have a Vision.  But given the choice your listing 
here I would go for the JR 347.  The Infinity 600 does not have a clock.
Another thing to consider is finger size.  I saw a customer demonstrate
that he could not move the stick to the limits without his fat fingers
flipping the dual rate switches.  That is if he held the right stick with
two fingers (not using the thumb method) and advanced the stick to full
down elevator - click - it pushed the right hand dual rate switch up.

Course this was a proto - but somehow I don't think they moved the switches.
Let us know what you decide.  The infinities are slow in coming out here and
I haven't seen one at the field yet - but there are 347's all over the place
and you'll never find an unhappy 347 owner.

Bye
Kay R. Fisher (who will work on his glued on clock on the Vision again tonight).

    I agree with Kay.  I held an Infinity a week ago and my small hands
    prefer the JRX347!  The Infinity is nice and rounded, but it seems to
    be designed for longer fingers than mine.  I'll also add that I am very
    pleased with my X347 TX.  It is very light and easy to hold and the
    cost / feature ratio is great.  By the way all of my other radios are
    Airtronics and I have had very good luck with them.  I have three
    Airtronics Spectra PCM radios and they are very good, but the X347 is
    much more modern and is more bang for the buck!
    
    Charlie
    

    
    I'll echo Charlie's comments. I got to hold Bruce Schnieders Infinity a
    couple of weeks ago, and wasn't really impressed with the feel of it.
    
    I'd strongly recommend the X-347 over the Infinity.

    Thanks for the inputs so far. Seems to be a very clear vote. I forwarded
    them all to Willi (the friend looking for a small TX for slope
    soaring). He is the RC guru here in KBO, but not much into notes (I
    don't think he ever accessed notes). If just the 347 wouldn't be so
    ugly... I like it's features and feel pretty much, too, except the
    limited memory and the limited battery capacity (might be a show
    stopper for slope soaring, now that I think of it. How long is the 500
    mAh battery in the TX supposed to last for the X-347?). Here in
    Germany, 1200 mAh is common for transmitters, the top of the line
    usually have 1700 SCE. And even the smallest computer radio from
    Graupner/JR can be upgraded to 24 model memory.
    
    Is there any price out there for the Infinity (and X-347) transmitter
    alone without RF module?
    
    Best regards,
                   Hartmut

    
    I think Eric H. payed around $250 last year when he replaced his JR
    X-347 tranmitter.
    

    Hartmut,
    	The X347 will run 2 hours on a full charge with the standard
    battery pack.  I've never seen a TX in the US have room for bigger
    nicads, but I have seen people add a larger pack on the back of the tx. 
    This adds quite a bit of weight though.  I'd be tempted to make up a
    belt worn pack if I needed more than two hours of time.  Many
    Photographers use them for their flash units.
    	I don't think that the price would be reasonable for a TX only.  I
    think Eric got a price of $250 for a TX when he smoked his.  That was
    the "repair" price if he sent in his broken one though.  The best bet
    would be to buy a whole system and sell the unwanted parts.  It's easy
    to sell a Receiver and RF module to someone who wants an extra.  I
    acquired one of my receivers that way.
    	It is interesting how the marketing differs outside the US.  I
    would love to have a 347 that could handle more than four models.
    
    Charlie
    

    Hartmut, does the European X-347 have storage for more than 4 models? 
    Or are those other brands??
    
    I'll buy the receiver and Tx RF module from you...  
    
    The X-347 is selling (tax-free) in NH for US$330 at last check...
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    

>      <<< Note 1186.42 by N25480::FRIEDRICHS "Keep'm straight 'n level" >>>
>
>    Hartmut, does the European X-347 have storage for more than 4 models? 
                                   ^
By definition - no.  That's what the 4 stands for.
Also the Infinity 600 has storage for 4 models.

Also about that power.  My vision comes with a 700 mah pack
and I assume that is also what is in the Infinity.  But the guts
are from the CSL folks (the computer card) and it is notoriously
power hungry.  45 minutes to an hour is all you can get out
of the 700 mah pack.  So I have an extra transmitter battery
pack that I have to take with to contests.  

Bottom line is I think the 347 also wins the power race hands down.

Don't get me wrong - I like the Infinity 600 - I just think it doesn't stand
up too well against the 347 in price performance.

Now if your talking Infinity 1000 - that's another story.  They have a clock
and a scanner and...

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    The X347 is very low power compared to any other PCM radio I've seen. 
    The newer Futaba is probably low power also.  The earlier ones were
    pretty power hungry.  I only get an hour out of my Spectra PCM radios
    and like Kay, I carry an extra pack.  The pack snaps on the back on the
    Spectra, so changing it is no big deal.  I have put two hours on my
    X347 between charges.  It has an interval timer that I reset when I
    charge it that keeps track of on time.  I find that a nice feature to
    keep track of battery condition.  It also reads out the battery voltage
    on the digital display and has a low battery alarm.  This allows you to
    run it longer than if you had to guess.
    
    Charlie
    

    RE: .42
    
    Jeff,
    
    no, the European X-347 does not have more than 4 memories. But the
    GRAUPNER mc-16 (manufactured by JR) seems to have (from catalog)
    similar features (maybe more or less the same except the housing) and
    a 24 memory board is available as an add-on option. The housing is
    European style (bigger) and has room for the memory card and a bigger
    battery (1400 mAh by default).
    
    Best regards,
                  Hartmut
    
    P.S.: If Willi will buy a 347, I'll get back at your offer of taking
    the receiver and Tx RF module. What would be a reasonable price? 

    I've seen 2:58 on my RAM simple  cycler on my fully charged 347. I've
    flown several planes during a 2+ hour session without the battery
    beeping at me. Generally in a 1+ hour lunchtime session I get  down to
    about 9.9v on the meter. Even less hassle  at the contests where I turn
    it off to put it in the impound between flights. I only carry a fast
    charger  in case a switch gets left on.
    
    Hartmut, the next question is,  what's the 24 model Tx cost over there
    and can we use our US JR modules and flight packs?

    My Futaba FC28 will go approx 8+ hours on a charge - there is a very large
    battery inside the set. You get 6 models as basic but that can be
    expanded up to _any_ number. Models can be any of planes, aircraft, 
    glider, helicopter - no limit on type of number of each. The range of
    options add-on's is superb. It has the removable Tx modules so you can
    move around the world using different Tx modules. This is a super set.
    
    Granted you pay for this set 8-). Then I can't see myself changing 
    sets for a good while. Won't get you _ANY_ wife points ! Make sure the
    doghouse is large enough 8-). 
    
    Regards,
    
    Eric.

    
    It would be nice if JR had an upgrade to the X347 that would let
    you repartition the 12 model limit. Like 8 power, 4 glider, etc,etc.
    Being limited to 4 power can be claustraphobic to some .. 8^)
    
    George

    You only  get 4 models total. If you select a model number and rename
    it you've just selected a template and some built in mixes. You can't
    have a model 1 glider and model 1 acro. I wish you could since I fly
    both power and gliders.

    Hmmm, is this the Airtronics note or the X-347 note???
    
    Oh well..
    
    Another point of interest on the X-347 pricing...  RC Buyers Warehouse
    is selling the X-347 TX for $18x.00 (I believe it was $187, but it may
    be $189..)  
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    

    Oh, and I forgot to mention...
    
    There is a rebate program for JR... 
    
    	$15 for a X-347
    	$20 for a PCM-10
    	$10 for a MAX 5/6 PCM
    
    Radio must be purchased between 3/1/92 and 4/31/92
    
    jeff
    

    Jeff,
    
    could it be it's a little late now to buy a radio before 4/31? Now that
    I think of it - when did you celebrate 4/31 this year? This date is not
    on a central European calendar...
    
    Sorry, just couldn't resist. I'm not sure what Willi decides. I suspect
    his eye was caught by the Infinity design and he might not be happy
    about all the X-347 recommendations. I'll try to get a hold of him and
    let you know what he decides on.
    
    Thanks very much so far!
    
    Best regards,
                  Hartmut

    I don't know what he'll be flying with it but didn't someone report
    (Dave Walter or Kay?) that there was a problem with 4 servos in the
    wing mode with this radio? Something about not being able to split the
    flaps for a flaperon mix?

    Sorry, I think that was supposed to be 5/31...  I'll confirm it
    tonight.
    
    jeff
    

    re .53
    
    Yes, the Infinity 600 won't handle two flap servos connected
    independently. If you use two flap servos they have to be connected
    with a Y harness. This rules out full span ailerons, but you can still
    have full span camber, flaps, and reflex.
    
    Of course there is always the Vision.......
    
    Terry

Here's some new information on an old topic: Airtronics radios. The replies
previous to this one discuss the Infinity 600A. Airtronics has since come
out with their Infinity 660, a radio which appears to compete directly with
the JR X-347. I recently purchased an Infinity 660 because I wanted to
stick to just one  manufacturer for all my radios, and I have mostly
Airtronics equipment.  The main use for this radio right now is in my
Falcon glider, but I would also like to use it for future power planes. The
Infinity 660 is being marketed as a full function glider/sport/heli system,
and since it's almost $200 cheaper than the Vision 8SP, I thought I'd give
it a try.

Features at a glance
--------------------

No way can I remember and list here all its features, but here are the main
ones of interest:

	* 4 model memories
	* 3 modes: Glider, Chopper, and Sport (power)
	* 6 channels, PCM or FM
	* Stopwatch and cumulative time clock
	* Failsafe (PCM only)
	* Programmable switches
	* ...and on, and on.

Programming is relatively easy, once you get the hang of navigating thru the
menus. The stopwatch is handy to start with any switch, but to reset it you 
have to go thru the menus, an annoying drawback.

I was initially worried about how the transmitter would feel in my hands, but
it's not too bad. A little thicker than the Vanguards, but pretty comfortable.
The throttle stick needs a bit more feedback in the ratchet mechanism. The 
switches are nicely differentiated so you can feel for the right one.

I'm mostly interested in its glider capabilities. It knows about V-tails,
split ailerons, aileron differential, crow landing, elevator presets,
coupled rudder,flaps on the throttle stick, the usual stuff. Where it gets
into problems is when you want to do something which is outside of the
preprogrammed features.

Now begins the soapbox stuff:


When 6 channels isn't really 6 channels
---------------------------------------

I quickly found out that although it's a 6 channel radio, you can't really 
make use of all 6 in a 6 channel glider (2 Ail, 2 Flap, 1 Ele, 1 Rud). The 
problem is with the flaps. There's no way to electronically split the flaps
to two channels if you use the Glider mode. Basically, in this mode there
are no free mixes, so you're stuck with just one channel for flaps. This
means you can't trim the flaps individually, and you can't have full span
aileron action. At Al Ryder's contest, Steve Savoie of the Downeast club
explained to me what can be done to fix this... but it's pretty ugly.
First, you have to use Sport mode instead of Glider mode. Now you have 2
free mixes, and you can split the flaps. BUT, in Sport mode the flap
channel is controlled by a little trim knob, not the throttle stick (makes
sense for a sport plane). The fix? Open the transmitter and swap the wires
between the throttle pot and the flap pot. Like I said, it's ugly. And you
don't get the elevator presets that are available in Glider mode.


So Who Needs Custom Launch Setups?
----------------------------------

Next problem: Flap preset. Or, the lack thereof. The Glider mode provides
two elevator presets to supplement the default setting, presumably for slow
circling, normal, and fast cruise. But it doesn't give you the ability to
mix elevator (master) to flaps (slave), so you can't preset the flaps to 
20 degrees deflection for launch, for example.


When 4 channels DEFINITELY isn't 6 channels
-------------------------------------------

Then there's the issue of compatibility with other Airtronics receivers. I 
would like to use this radio with my new slope soarer so that I can have
spoileron mixing. That is, a separate servo for each aileron and the
ability to reflex (or drop) both ailerons. And, I'd like to use a 4 channel
mini  receiver so I can fit it in the slender Sparrow fuse. The problem:
the second aileron channel is assigned to channel 6. On a 4 channel
receiver, channel 6 is sort of out in space. "No problem" says I, "just
program it in Sport mode and mix the second aileron channel to the unused
throttle channel using the compensation mixer". Well, that sort of worked,
but it was a programming  nightmare if I used the throttle as the master
channel, and unusable if the little flap knob was the master. Defeated, I
decided to order a standard 6 channel FM receiver... if it doesn't fit,
I'll remove the case.


It's that darned software again
-------------------------------

What really bugs me about the radio's shortcomings is that it's all
software. The channels are there, the switches are available, the only
limitations are imposed by the software. According to Steve, the
transmitter has no replaceable PROM; sounds like they buy the processor
with the code masked right into it. I think that's a terribly shortsighted
solution; the software can ALWAYS be improved, and I'd be willing to spend
$20 or $30 for a new PROM to upgrade its capabilities. But, noooooo...

I think Airtronics really blew it, at least for the Glider market. This
radio could have been a lot better. Maybe they were afraid of stealing 
profits from the Vision?

Dave

    

    The 347 isn't upgradeable either and it has some of the same
    limitations on channels.  The 388 fixes some of the limitations in
    software.  One shortcoming with the 347 is that you can't assign trims.
    I wanted to use two elevator servos on my Hots.  I set them up and did
    the mixing and the elevator stick would move both sides BUT the
    elevator trim would only move one of them!  There was NO workaround for
    this so I went to a Y connector and had to match the channels the old
    fashioned mechanical way.  Bummer.
    
    Charlie
    

    Speaking of cost, I just saw an Futaba radio in Tower for $1400.
    
    Even by my standards that is a lot of sheckles for a radio....
    
    I second Dave's sentiment about softeware.
    
    E.

I'll bet you'll have one inside of three months!

>I'll bet you'll have one inside of three months!
    
    This is one bet that you will definitely lose!.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    EVL-1.

    but the F.... word seems to be the major hickup    :-)
    
    

    You got it Bernd! :-)
    
    E.
    
    
    
    

    RE: .58
    
    Eric,
    
    could you check what F..... radio that is? I am suspecting it's the
    FC-28 which has been around here for a while and people seem to like
    it. Well, maybe only those who get it for free and dealers... I'm not
    sure. I'm not really following the F..... offerings either since they
    have a history of screwing customers in Europe, too. They claim things
    have changed during the last two years. My memory is lasting longer,
    though...
    
    So, just for curiosity, is it the FC-28 (I wouldn't even know the price
    tag in Germany)?
    
    Regards,
             Hartmut