Conference vmszoo::rc

    I'll start off by offering some basic rules at my site - East Side
    RC Club.
                                                                         
    1. Everyone takes off and lands into the wind.  On no wind days
    the direction is agreed on by those present.
    
    2. Planes are started facing toward the runway only.
    
    3. No one takes off from the pit area.
    
    4. Planes are not to be taxied into the pit area.
    
    5. Planes are not allowed to be flown over the pilot area or the
    pits.  In other words, no closer in than the runway.
    
    6. People flying non-glow engines (ex: gasoline) should carry a
    fire extinguisher 
    
    7. All pilots fly from designated pilot stations.
    
    
    We do have trouble enforcing the rules some time, but most of the
    guys try.  We are still trying to figure out what to do to those
    who don't abide by the rules consistently.
    
    Well, that's my 2 cents.  Let's hear how you all are dealing with
    safety at your field
    
    
    Chris

    We have a pit area for engine starting and run up but I am continually
    amazed at how many people start and run motors without regard to
    the prop line.  Even worse is the guy who starts a 4 stroke and
    proceeds to lean it out without regard to those in the path of the
    prop.  We keep a fire extinguisher and a first aid kit in a shed
    adjacent to our pit for emergencies.  We have a safety officer who
    politely polices flyers and spectators.  I too would be interested
    in hearing of an effective method for enforcing habitual violators.
    
    Will Beatty

    re-.2
    
    Good input, Will.  That's why we face planes toward the runway,
    away from spectators.  You never know when a prop will be thrown.
    
    I have been appointed as the safety officer for 1989, but I am not
    there to police people, that is the function of every member.  I
    got copies of various club rules from the AMA and found a method
    that I will propose at our next Club meeting in Jan.  It states
    that any member has the right to point out to another member when
    he is violating the club safety rules.  If the member continues
    to violate the rules, his/her name is reported to the club executive
    board (the officers) and it becomes business at the next club meeting.
    It is then the responsiblity of the club to decide on how to deal
    with the violator.
    
    Seems to me this would be fairly effective.
    
    Re-.1
    
    Dan,
    
    How true, I do exactly that with my own props.  I stuck my finger
    in one once while adjusting the needle because I did'nt think I
    was that close to the prop.  Thanks for the reminder, It was something
    I do and I completetly overlooked it.  Some things we consider common
    sense, others are'nt even aware of.
    
    Keep the comments coming, we all benefit from them.
    
    Chris

    I have seen more people get bit by props removing the Ni-Starter
    or while adjusting the needle than while starting.  The chicken
    stick only helps while starting.  It's still up to you to avoid
    the prop while going BEHIND the plane to remove the plug warmer
    and adjust the needle.  I really hate to see people reaching over
    the prop to take off the warmer, but lots of people do just that.
    I saw our club Pres. get bit by carelessly carying his bipe with
    the engine running by grabbing the top wing.  He swung it around
    and got cut on the arm.
    

        Re:< Note 779.5 by LEDS::WATT >

        Charlie,
        
                That's true  for  the smaller engines.  I would say up to
        .40 size engines  you  will  probably not break the skin when you
        get bitten on starting.    But the larger engines are a different
        story.  The Saito .80 and O.S.  .91 FSR will do serious damage to
        your hand if it's still there  when the engine fires and the prop
        has taken a helf revolution.  What  I'm  saying is that I believe
        people get bitten most often when starting, but  there  are fewer
        injuries.
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         Hang in there! o_|_
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             Anker      \_|_/

    I beg to differ. Granted any activity around the spinning prop is
    cause for careful actions I find it much easier and secure feeling
    adjustion a needle valve,removing a glow connector etc fron the
    front of the ship as apposed to the rear. For me when operating
    from the rear I always feel uncomfortable with the wing. This forces
    me into a position where I'm often leaningch for the adjustment. 
    
    One point I want to raise is something else that makes me
    uncomfortable. That of running up the engine and then lifting the
    plane up nose high to check lean. I'd venture to say that 90% of
    the time when someone does this they place your head on the same
    plain that the prop arch is. That scares me. I always find myself
    ducking down or moving off to the side.
    
    
    Tom

As long as controversy is OK.

The top wing of a biplane IS the handle.  I regret that the Berliner-Joyce
has no equivalent since the top wing is a gull.  Granted the prop arc
comes dangerously close to your arm when lifting - it is THE way to
move a Bipe - running or not.  

In some safety discussion in some magazine (precise huh) I have seen
debate on what is the right way to face aircraft running in the pits.
If they face away from spectators (and other pit folks) it is felt that 
is rude because you blow all your exhaust and wind and noise at them.

Turned the other way it is quieter, cleaner, and less windy (important
for sail planes in the pits).  Is it more dangerous?  I doubt it cause
every time I've seen a prop break or spin off they have only went sideways.

In the now defunct Action field the pit area is a circle - that makes
it the best or worst of all views.

Now about rules about taxing in the pits.  What would be the purpose
of taxing if you carried your plane out to the runway and picked it up
there?

I try to obey the rules of whatever club field I am at.  They vary and
are inconsistent and "I believe" seldom based on fact.

About prop safety.  Painting the tips white is a good idea - tho I
haven't personally done it (I should).  Inspecting for cracks and nicks
after landings it probably the single best thing you can do to make
the pits safer with one exception - four strokes that kick props.  I
don't know how to handle that but Anker had some clever scheme with
prop nuts to keep them on if I recall.  It is hidden somewhere else
in this notes file but perhaps he could reiterate.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay,
    	I'm not saying that holding the top wing is bad, but Carelessly
    holding it can be.  The plane can swing around and bite you if
    you take your attention off of it.  Also, It's really preferred
    to have a helper carry the plane with two hands instead of carrying
    it in one hand with the transmitter in the other.  I know most of
    us end up carrying our own planes at least the smaller ones.
    I try to get help with my larger ones.  Another thing that I try
    to do is start my plane near the runway entry so that I don't have
    to carry it far.  This minimizes the exposure.  I also don't like
    to get oil and gunk from the plane all over my hands when I'm gonna
    fly.  The best thing with a bipe is to hold the top wing with one
    hand and the fuse near the stab with the other.

    
    One practice to avoid is trying to carry a larger plane _and_ transmitter
    at the same time.  If you can get a good solid grip on the fuse
    with one hand (i.e. SS20) it's ok but larger planes require two
    hands.  I tried leaving the transmitter hanging around my neck on
    the neck strap a few times (to free up both hands), but when I bent
    over and almost fed the antenna into the prop I gave up this practice!
    
    I can't imagine anyone feeling comfortable with reaching from the
    front of the plane to remove the plug warmer or adjust the needle
    valve.  I cringe every time I see it.  I've seen two cases where
    glasses or other items fell out of a shirt pocket while reaching
    over.  The glasses were shattered and spread across the pit area
    but luckily nobody was hurt.  By the way, I cringe when I see other
    people reaching over but I'll bet that occasionally I still do it
    myself - when I'm thinking about getting into the air more than
    about safety.  Usually I get behind the plane, put the engine to
    near idle, hold the rear of the fuse tightly and remove the plug
    warmer - then throttle up and adjust the needle.
    
    When checking mixture setting I hold the plane way overhead so that
    the prop is not in line with anyone's head (except maybe Dave Hughes
    who is six feet taller than me :-) :-)).
    
    Bill

Never having flown a power plane, forgive my ignorance, but here are a few
thoughts: 

1. Would there be any benefit of having a stake or something in the ground so
   that the plane could be tethered during start up in case someone accidentally
   lost his grip on the plane? 

2. Why not have a wire permanently connected to the glow plug and running back
   to some sort of connector. The NiCad could then be connected further back,
   out of the way of the prop and there would be less chance of the prop 
   catching the wire or the fingers.

3. Do the same thing with the needle valve. Aren't there needle valve stem
   extensions or remote needle valves available? 

4. Is it a frequent occurrance for a prop to break during start-up and fly into
   the spectators in the pit?

Dave

        Re:< Note 779.12 by SUBSYS::BUSCH "Dave Busch at NKS1-2" >


>Never having flown a power plane, forgive my ignorance, but here are a few
>thoughts: 
        
                Ignorance is no problem, stupidity is.  I'm glad ypu were
        willing to ask  these  really  great  questions.  All of them are
        very relevant.


>1. Would there be any benefit of having a stake or something in the ground so
>   that the plane could be tethered during start up in case someone accidentally
>   lost his grip on the plane? 
        
                You bet there would  be  a great advantage.  We don't use
        the system you recommend because  we are lazy.  We really should.
        A very small problem, that shouldn't  be  any  hinderance is that
        there are few places to attach the plane to the stake easily.

>2. Why not have a wire permanently connected to the glow plug and running back
>   to some sort of connector. The NiCad could then be connected further back,
>   out of the way of the prop and there would be less chance of the prop 
>   catching the wire or the fingers.
        
                These  are  commercially  available  and  also  easy   to
        fabricate.  Once again I think the reason  is  that it's too easy
        to  just use the manufacturer's setup.  I have  done  an  onboard
        ignition  system  once.   My personal experience is that the  one
        time  I  got  severely  injured, 7 stitches and several months to
        heal, not to mention a battle scar that will last the rest  of my
        life.  Anyway, the reason was that I was really stupid and put my
        hand through the prop.

>3. Do the same thing with the needle valve. Aren't there needle valve stem
>   extensions or remote needle valves available? 
        
                Same story.   They are available, but most of us think we
        are experienced enough to manage without.

>4. Is it a frequent occurrance for a prop to break during start-up and fly into
>   the spectators in the pit?
        
                I have never seen this happen.  What I have seen a couple
        of times is a prop  nut run loose and the prop jump off and bouce
        all over the place.  This  opinion  is very personal and probably
        controversial, but a prop that's likely to  break will be damaged
        in aprevious crash and only gross negligence will cause the owner
        to try to start the engine with it.

                      _ 
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         Hang in there! o_|_
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             Anker      \_|_/

    I'm glad to see that this note is getting some action.  Again, I
    am reminded of things I already do without thinking, some good and
    some bad.
    
    The mention of staking planes is used by many of the local clubs
    on the larger planes (.90's and up).
    
    Safety really comes down to common sense.  If you it's potentially
    hazardous, don't do it!  Otherwise, you'll kick yourself in the
    rear and regret the consequences.  
    
    Ken Colby - Since I am now the club safety officer I am not going
    to check the blade tracking on the Heli with my forehead.  
    
    Dan Snow - Did Dan Eaton have tracking marks on his forehead when
    you met him this weekend?  Or Tom T., did you see him too?
    
    Chris
    

        Re:< Note 779.16 by CSTEAM::HENDERSON "Mode-1 for Ever" >

                I just  remembered  a  technique  that I used to use, and
        I'll start using it again right away.
        
                As Eric noted, tethers can be a real pain, which is why I
        never used them.   But  what  I  did  for  a while, and recommend
        highly is to ram two  mid-size  screw  drivers into the ground so
        that they will fit in front  of  the  landing  gear wire.  I know
        there are a few planes this system  will  not  work  on, must for
        most it works real well.  The advantage of this system is that it
        prevents the plane from moving forward, but does not make it hard
        to pick it up.
        
                An even better system that I used on my narrow body, high
        wing trainers was to put a simple cradle on the top of  my flight
        box.   This  worked  real  well  and  fitted an amazing number of
        different planes.   Unfortunately my newer planes will not fit in
        simple  cradles because of  their  complicated  landing  gear  or
        because they are low-wingers.   I  recommend this system strongly
        to beginners.
                      _ 
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         Hang in there! o_|_
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             Anker      \_|_/

    I tried something for my 40-sized tricycle geared plane that
    worked pretty good, which is a wooden base consisting of a
    triangular piece of plywood (sort of shaped like Home Plate) with
    about 2" high boxes made to fit the wheels. This served a dual
    purpose of keeping it from rolling on the ground while
    starting/idling, and I also use it in the back of the van to keep
    the plane from rolling around in transit. Actually, I built it
    initially for use in transit, and then started using it in the
    pit too.

    I wouldn't recommend this for larger than 60-size, and most of
    the tethers I've seen used are for the big birds. I also would
    never rev up beyond about 1/3 throttle. My startup procedure
    is similar to ones already mentioned: Start the engine from
    the front, then walk around behind the plane to remove the
    plug warmer and hold the tail for revving up and needle
    adjustments. In the same way that I now feel uncomfortable
    not wearing a seat belt, I feel uncomfortable being in front
    or to the side of a running engine.

    By the way, I've seen people start their motors from the side -
    kneeling on the ground on the right-hand side of the plane,
    straddling the prop, and flipping it up and toward themselves.
    I think that's nuts, but I've seen it done by more than one guy.
    Unfortunately, many people begin this hobby without much help
    and advice from veterans, and develop bad or unsafe habits
    unwittingly. And, unfortunately, it's hard to get a guy to
    change the way he does things after he's formed a habit.

    Dave

    I, of course, fly electrics, so I don't have to start my motor
    until I'm standing on the field, ready to launch.  My friend flies
    gas, though, and a method I found, that works quite well, involves
    (kind of like Anker's suggestion) two large spikes from a
    telephone pole (you know, the things that are used for rungs on
    the pole so you can climb it).  What I do is this... I figure out
    where I want to set up in the pits, and put the plane down, facing
    the runway.  I get out the two spikes, and drive one through each
    wing panel and into the ground.  This secures the plane extremely
    well (yes, it does make it hard to pick up once the motor is
    running, but you don't have to hold the plane while you start it).
    Once everything is running and adjusted, I remove the spikes (use
    a large pinch bar, braced against the fuselage to pry them out),
    patch the holes in the wing panels with some of that nifty
    pressure sensitive monokote stuff, it goes on real quick (don't
    use the Black Baron stuff, it doesn't last long), and your ready
    to fly !  The advantage to this method is that you don't leave
    your "rig" sticking out of the ground.  I agree with Eric on this,
    cradles tend to attract unsuspecting feet (and personal injury
    lawyers).  The only real problem with this method is that
    Biplanes, and some of the high wing trainers, are too tall for the
    spikes to effectively hold the wing and stick into the ground.  I
    am working on an alternative involving Cinder Blocks, however.
    Unfortunately, all the Biplanes I've tried the Cinder Block method
    on were built by bad modelers, who failed to adequately construct
    the upper wing supports, the results of which are typically a
    Cinder Block plunging through the upper wing and crushing the
    fuselage.  I'll post any news of my progress on this as soon as
    people stop flying their planes at me when I show up at the field,
    right now, I can never get close enough to the pits to try
    anything out.

    Randy (8^D)

I'm smiling at that last reply -- guess you can get too much
"safety".   But one of the things that I like about this sport is
that most everyone, especially us "Clubbies" (people who fly at
clubs versus those who don't belong to anything) are fanatically
paranoid about not causing danger to anyone else -- we work hard
at being conscious about all our actions and their possible
dangers.

My own method is to stay awake, and to handle the plane very
carefully when its running.  I've thought about all the
appliances mentioned here and have come to the conclusion that
for myself, they cause more hassle than they are worth.

What I've done is to adopt a strict set of rules for myself
regarding starting and handling the plane.  Start from the front
keeping a firm grip on exactly the same place (the cowl in front
of the windshield), asap (when I'm sure the engine's running)
move behind the wing and adjust the needle, remove the wires,
wedge the tailplane behind my legs when running up, and if I run
up for more than a few seconds, pick up the plane and move it to
a safe place (I do this more as a courtesy to the others from
noise and wind.  I try to do exactly the same thing every time on
the theory that good habits are the best precaution, and am
pretty successful at staying consistent. 

One dangerous practice I still have is that I turn off the Tx
when starting, and I start with almost full throttle (I hand
start).  This has had me frequently pawing at the Tx with one
hand while holding the plane with the other, and its gonna get me
in trouble someday.

    RE:.20
    >One dangerous practice I still have is that I turn off the Tx
    >when starting, and I start with almost full throttle (I hand
    >start).  This has had me frequently pawing at the Tx with one
    >hand while holding the plane with the other, and its gonna get me
    >in trouble someday.

    John,
    Why turn off the transmitter? 

Dan Eaton

PS: See you next week.
    

 
    What I do is to hold onto the prop when I start the engine.  However,
    since my prop is a rotor and it has a clutch, it makes it easy to
    do.  Might be more difficult on the fixed wings. :*) 

		________
	 /	  __|__  
	=========[_____\>
	/	__|___|__/  BREAK A BLADE,
			    Ken    	

    RE- .22
    
    If you're worried about the TX packs going dead, I would think that
    the RX packs would be long gone by that time!
    
                             |                      
   \	       	         ____|____                      /   Regards,
    \________________________O_________________________/    Frank.
    

>                       -< TX should outlast RX packs ?? >-

Not necessarily.

The only time I flew a plane till I ran out of battery it was the Tx that
died.  This was with a Futaba gold Tx and 550ma Rx battery on a foam
4 channel trainer.  When put on a cycler the standard transmitters (don't
recall off hand how many milliamps they have) and the 550 (std) receiver
batteries both last about 2 hours.  That is at full load.  In reality
only the Tx runs near full load.  The receiver is only working hard when
all the servos are running and moving surfaces under a load.  Most 4
channel trainers don't put much of a load on the servos.  Pattern planes
and large planes do.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================
    

    
    
    I would like to offer a tethering technique to this discussion.
    I'm a new member to the hobby and came up with this idea while
    trying to break in an engine that I had already installed.
    (next time I will use a platform)
    
    Get two tent stakes, each about 6 inches long and drivable by hand.
    Drive them into the ground about two inches from the tail, angled
    into the direction of the plane (if plane is facing ---->>>,
    then drive stake at this angle: \) and one either side of the plane's
    center line.  Tie a small length of twine from the left stake,
    under the left stab, over the fuse, under the right stab and to
    the right stake (or over, under, over).  This holds very well.
    When the engine is running and under control, pull a stake and your
    under way.

    Re: last several,
    
    John, yer' wastin' yer' time, amigo.  Unless it takes you 20 minutes
    to start yer' engine, yer' not saving/conserving enough battery
    to amount to anything and, even if you were, what about yer' Rx
    batteries?  They've been on all this time, haven't they?  Kay's
    correct in that, even though the Tx pack is twice the voltage, it's
    still a 550mah (usually) pack, same as the Rx and lasts about the
    same length of time as the Rx.  The bottom line is that yer'
    accomplishing nothing, except, perhaps, to ensure that the Rx batt
    fails before the Tx, not necessarily a desireable situation.
    
    However, a better reason for _not_ doing what you do is that yer'
    making the Rx vulnerable to swamping and/or capture by another Tx
    on a nearby (or dirty) frequency which can run yer' servos clear
    to the end and damage/break gears or, worse, may run the throttle
    all the way to full when yer' not expecting it.  
    
    All-in-all. any way ya' slice it, I think yer' developing a dangerous
    habit there, one that accomplishes little if anything and _will_
    bite you one day! 

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

Yeah Al, I got that.  Another New Year's resolution -- this year
I'll be working on using my seat belt 100%.

On the Tx batteries.  I've measured about 45 minutes of on time
with my TX, this is with new Sanyo batteries.  When I was
replacing the batteries I put my multimeter in line with the Tx
and got about 150 mils.  Your average idle current on an Rx
battery is about 15-20 mils with peak usage of about 150
mils/servo when they're running.  Just as Frank said a couple of
notes back, the Tx does not give the same operating time as the
Rx.

Now, I know that the Tx load of 150 mils should give me about 3
hours time, but it doesn't, and I haven't found out why, so I'm
conservative.  I don't trust that mickey-mouse meter on the TX.

BTW, its a good check on how well you've installed the system by
putting a meter in series with the servo leads and checking the
current.  If you get more than about 180 mils you should check
the installation.

re: -.1

>On the Tx batteries.  I've measured about 45 minutes of on time
>with my TX, this is with new Sanyo batteries.  When I was
>replacing the batteries I put my multimeter in line with the Tx
>and got about 150 mils.  Your average idle current on an Rx
>battery is about 15-20 mils with peak usage of about 150
>mils/servo when they're running.  Just as Frank said a couple of
>notes back, the Tx does not give the same operating time as the
>Rx.
>
>Now, I know that the Tx load of 150 mils should give me about 3
>hours time, but it doesn't, and I haven't found out why, so I'm
>conservative.  I don't trust that mickey-mouse meter on the TX.


    45 minutes on the TX is unacceptable. You've got a problem, and
    ought to find out what it is right away. My guess is that your
    "new" Sanyo batteries have been sitting on somebody's shelf for a
    few years and went bad. If your batteries aren't giving the rated
    amp-hour capacity, they're bad, whether or not they're new. 

    I'd never fly with a TX that only gave me 45 minutes. By the way,
    I agree with Al about leaving your TX off during starting, that's
    a dangerous practice. I and most of the folks I fly with make a
    habit of turning the TX on first and off last, to avoid spurious
    signals causing the RX to peg one of the servos (Murphy will make
    sure that it's the throttle). 

    Dave

    
    My concern wasn't with the sailplane pilots letting anyone know
    when they were taking off. Every time I was up and someone wanted
    to launch they let me know. That was good of them. My concern was
    with hitting the line during launch or as the line settles to the
    ground. We in my club don't have to deal with this because we have
    an agreement with another club in the area that fly only gliders
    off of a turf farm. 
    
    
    
    Tom

>    (Paying attention Anker?) Compressed Air Horns!! The kind you can
>    buy for your boat, the ones you hear all the time at outdoor sporting
>    events. Just one quick blast will alert anyone within a half mile
>    that you intend to momentarily release on a hi-start. These are

This is a great idea.

But there is one problem that this probably won't help.  Several times
I have made certain that all power pilots knew I was launching and still
while up on the tow line planes were flying right at the string.

I haven't seen a line get hit yet - but it's only a matter of time.
Seems like the power pilots acknowledge your launch then ignore it.
In practice they should have their spotter watch the parachute come
down and tell them when all is clear.

Never the less - I really like the idea of a horn - think I will
purchase one myself.  

Here's the question for the day - where can I purchase a air horn
that is capable of being heard for a half mile but still only puts
out 90 db at 9 feet :-)



Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Kay brought a good point.I think without even knowing it:-)
    
    Might it be a good idea at future DEC FLY-IN's to have a rule
    that spotters are manditory?
    
    This would have made me feel more comfortable about where the
    toe line was.  
    
    
    WHAT ABOUT THE ORANGE,MA. EVENT??
    
    
    Tom

                I  feel   compelled  to  add  my  $.02  to  the  hi-start
        discussion.
        
                Being both a  glider-  and  power-pilot I saw the problem
        from both sides, and  at  the fly-in I felt that the power pilots
        were the least flexible by  insisting  on  flying directly across
        the field, which also was across  the  prevailing  wind.  If they
        simply  had  lined  the  active  runway  with  the  general  wind
        direction, which glider pilots are forced to do, there would have
        been no conflict.  The drop zone is easily  big  enough  to allow
        the runway to be pointed in any direction.
        
                There  were  several  times  where I  tried  to  get  the
        hi-start launched for up to 5 minutes where the power pilots keps
        making  low  passes  straight  across  it  ignoring  my   waving,
        hollering,  lifting  the plane, etc..  They were looking straight
        at me,  so  they  must  have  had  zero  thought for the gliders/
        Finally I chose  a  moment where it would take at least 5 seconds
        after my launch before  they  crossed  the  line  hping that they
        would notice.
        
                But I really like the idea of the air horn  and believe I
        have one sitting in my basement that could be used in  the future
        as long as the club pitches in to purchase air cannisters.
        
                Tom.    We  are working on the May fun-fly.  Its too much
        work to have it in Orange because of the hassle with applying for
        permission at the  air  port.    The Drop Zone is out because our
        defense dollars will be  used  to  subsidize  war games there all
        wekkends except one.  So  we  are  working  on finding some other
        field to have it at.
        
                I don't think the mandatory  spotter rule will work.  Air
        horns will work well enough to  eliminate  this  problem,  in  my
        opinion.
        
                      _ 
                     / |
        |  _====____/==|
        |-/____________|
        |    |        o \
             O           \ 
                          O
         Hang in there! o_|_
                          |
             Anker      \_|_/

    In this humble, but outspoken person's opinion, if a club has a
    board of directors, that board has the right to make, announce,
    and enforce a rule for the safety of the general membership. Not
    EVERYTHING has to be voted on. So, if the rule is that when the
    air horn sounds, DO NOT fly in the area of the hi-start for about
    3 minutes, then that's the rule. It's "flyer be ware". If a person
    chooses to ignore that rule and happens to clip the line and sheer
    off a wing, or get tangled up and come tumbling down, you were warned,
    so go cry in someone else's beer. Some rules HAVE to exist wether
    everyone agrees with them or not.
    
    To take the air horn idea a step further, a launch could be signaled
    by "one" blast, and the hi-start line returning to earth could be
    signaled by "two" blasts. Like an all clear.
    
    
    Steve

        Re:< Note 779.38 by RVAX::SMITH >

        Yea, yea,
        
                Being the  prez  and agreeing with the suggestion I think
        we will have  a  set  of rules defined tonight that resolves this
        problem.  I happen  to  believe  the  hi-start  was  in  the ONLY
        practical position at the fly-in  and  that  a  major problem was
        that the glider pilots had no  sure  way  of  signaling that they
        were about to launch.  Air horns  solves  this.    If a collision
        occurs and the horn was used, the power  pilot is at fault and is
        expected  to offer restitution.  If air horns weren't  used,  the
        glider pilot is at fault.
        
                Why spotters won't work?  Because noone will volunteer to
        be a  spotter.  Also, whose fault is it if there is no spotter on
        duty?  Say there  is  one power pilot and one glider pilot at the
        field!
        
                      _ 
                     / |
        |  _====____/==|
        |-/____________|
        |    |        o \
             O           \ 
                          O
         Hang in there! o_|_
                          |
             Anker      \_|_/

    I think the primary problem at CRRC is the blatent disregard of
    established rules for the flying site. Not by everybody, for sure,
    but by a surprisingly large minority (or was it a majority) of
    the folks. Regarding the April DEC Fly-in, there were two orange
    traffic cones that are supposed to denote the flight line. They
    were ignored. We had people taking off and landing every which
    way. I saw one landing go right between two pilots who were standing
    about 30' apart. Part of the problem that day was that the wind
    direction was bad. But I have always felt concerned that the rules
    were not being followed. When I joined CRRC I was sent a rule book,
    which gave very explicit and very good rules for the Drop Zone, but
    it seems that they are largely ignored.

    I think it makes matters worse when club officers are present at the
    field and apparently do nothing to attempt to enforce the safety rules.
    Not that I'm blaming the officers for the problem - it's the members who
    violate the rules, but if they are approached by an officer and refuse
    to listen then there ought to be another way of dealing with them.

    So, the powered guys were not following the rules, and there was
    general confusion at the flight line (what flight line?). This was
    then exacerbated by the fact that the glider hi-start was set up across
    the powered fly-zone. Nobody seemed to coordinate this. Nobody asked
    for a 5 minute meeting at the pits where we might have agreed to where
    the powered flight line is and where the hi-start will go. Nobody was
    IN CHARGE, and when you have 20-30 guys flying at random, you're bound
    to have trouble. I for one was amazed that there were no mid-airs and
    no powered planes cut in half by the hi-start. It would have been pretty
    easy to move the powered flight line to parallel the hi-start, with
    the runway along the dirt roadway, and the glider hi-start BEHIND
    the powered pilots. That is one of the "official" runway configurations
    in my CRRC rule book. That would have allowed both groups to fly into
    the wind. But NOBODY (I was there too, so I'm part of NOBODY) bothered
    to try to coordinate it. I think that if SOMEBODY had gone out to the
    powered flight line, moved the orange cones, and announced in a loud
    voice that "THE FLIGHT LINE IS NOW HERE AND THE TAKEOFF/LANDING
    DIRECTION IS THAT-A-WAY", and then returned to the pits and made the
    same announcement, that it would have happened easily. We could have
    even shifted the pit area to clear the takeoff path with little trouble.
    How many acres of grass field are there, anyway? At least 5, perhaps 10.
    There's no reason that we should have been in each other's way.

    I recommend that future DEC fly-ins should have an appointed Director
    and Safety Officer (the same or different people) who are established
    as being IN CHARGE and who take active steps to direct the activities.
    I think that few people will openly rebel against such direction, if it
    is given.

    The soap box is now available for the next preacher.

    Dave Hughes

    Pilot flame on,
    ---------------
    
    
    
    	To start all of my comments are strictly given for the benefit
    of improved safety and enjoyment at e DECRCM FLY-IN.  The spotters
    come from fellow flyers at the event who aren't in the act or readying
    to fly. You simply say,"hey joe,spot for me??".
    
    
    FULL FLAME ON.
    ______________
    
    
    		ANKER,,DAN ETC.....................
    
    
    	IF YOU DISCUSSING CLUB MATTERS OUTSIDE OF DECRCM RELATED ISSUES
    THEN ;
    		GET THE HELL OUT OF THE NOTES FILE,GO TO A PAY PHONE
    	AND CALL EACH OTHER TO TALK ABOUT CRRC OR OTHER SHIT. YOU SEE
    	NO ONE ELSE USING THIS FILE TO DISCUSS NON DEC CLUB SHIT OTHER
    	THAN YOU GUYS IN THE CENTRAL MA. AREA.
    
    
    		STOP PISSING AND MOANING ABOUT YOUR OUTSIDE WORK CLUB
    	BULLSHIT.STROP USING DEC RESOURCES FOR THESE MATTERS. USE YOUR
    	OWN POCKET CHANGE TO FURTHER YOUR OUTSIDE WORK ACTIVITIES.
    
    
    FLAME OFF
    ---------
    
    	If somethings pertinant to a DECRCM event then find.
    
    
    
    TOM

1st - Spotters are easy and a good safety rule in general.
      How many times have you suddenly gotten a bug in your eye,
      forgotten your sun glasses, wanted a picture taken, had a bad
      itch, or just plane needed help landing.

2nd - I think we didn't have to move the flight line.  It is perfectly
      OK to string the high start right across the runway.  As long
      as everyone knows about it and is warned.  The one guy that taxied
      into the wire last time was taxing back into the pits.  There is
      probably a generic rule not to do that anyhow - I saw it coming -
      guess I should have hopped up and ran to the power pilot.
      If you change the flight line for power you would have to keep doing
      that with every wind change.  We don't have a lot of options with
      with placement of the high start.  We have to put the anchor down
      wind and the launch will be as far away as we can pull it - usually
      the whole field.  The parachute will follow the wind down.  I admit
      that I was confused when I flew the Aeromaster as tho what was suppose
      to be the runway.

3rd - The horn idea is great.  I also like the idea of coding - but simple.
      How about one long for launch and three shorts for "chute down".  The
      3 shorts would be an optional courtesy since if you are by yourself
      you can't watch the chute go down and can't always get to the horn
      and keep your eyes on the plane.  

Now if I could just rig up a CO2 cartridge to be both a launch horn and
a power pod...

Hooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooonk


Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
================================================================================

    Let me jump back on the soap box for just a minute...

    I think stringing a hi-start right across a runway is nuts. Just plain
    nuts. Power planes go dead-stick frequently, and as such they are much
    FASTER and LESS controllable than a glider, and I sure wouldn't want to
    be doging a hi-start while trying to shoot a dead stick landing. Anker's
    experience, as he related it (waving his arms, etc, and nobody paying
    attention) is precisely the point. Nothing personal, Anker, but I'm sure
    glad that nobody who was piloting an airplane paid attention to you. The
    power flyers were doing what they were supposed to be doing - keeping
    their eyes glued on their airplanes and keeping them under control. If
    they can see and pay attention to a guy 100 yards away waving his arms,
    then they either have super-human vision or they're being careless with
    their airplanes. 
    
    The AMA rules are very clear - nobody is supposed to be on the flying
    side of a flight line. Why the glider guys think they're exempt from
    this SAFETY rule escapes me, but they do it all the time. If I sound
    like a prejudiced power flyer so be it - but I know that if I was
    launching a glider there's no way I'd stroll out into an active power
    flying area and stand there flying my glider. I understand that gliders
    are more restrictive about cross-wind takeoffs, and that's fine. I would
    have been willing to have the power flight line moved to accomodate the
    gliders. 

    Let's not blow this out of proportion: The DEC Fly-in in April was
    a grand success and nobody should say otherwise. However, it is
    legitimate to use hindsight to look at things that could have been
    done better, with an eye to future events. That is the intent of my
    comments.

    I think it's appropriate for our comments and suggestions, as guests
    at CRRC's field, to be brought up at that club's meeting, and I'm
    glad that some of us who are also members of that club will be doing
    that. We need to be careful, though, and not be perceived as complainers
    or trouble makers, because the simplest solution for a host club would
    then be to not let us back. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that
    WE let things get slightly out of control at OUR event, and WE ought
    to avoid making that mistake again.

    Dave Hughes

    p.s. I don't like the horn idea because it is too "local". There are
    enough visitors and occasional flyers at any field that any local
    convention like horns is bound to be confusing to some of the people
    they're intended to help. It might be ok for individual, controlled
    events, like a DEC Fly-in, where everybody is explicitly told what it
    is and what it means.

        Re:< Note 779.45 by LEDS::HUGHES "Dave Hughes (LEDS::HUGHES) NKS1-1/E3 291-7214" >

        Dave,
        
                I very rarely flame, but now you have me riled.
        
                The gliders  were NOT hi-starting across the runway!  The
        marked runway, cones,  was  diagonal  and  set  up  so  that  the
        hi-start and the runway  did  not  cross.  What happened was that
        the power flyers, yourself included,  ignored  the  marked runway
        and flew across the field, totally  ignoring the gliders, who had
        set up the hi-start along the edge  of  the  field.  When a flyer
        dicides to do low passes he has the responsibility to ensure that
        this flying does not interfere with take-offs, landings and other
        activity with restricted manouverability.
        
                The  horn idea was accepted by the CRRC board last  night
        and will become part of the field rules.  If a  power  flyer does
        not stay out of the way after being alerted by the horn  he  will
        be  liable for damages, just as with any other violation of field
        rules.
        
                What the  heck did you want us (the glider pilots) to do?
        We are constrained  by  wind  direction and need a good 1000 feet
        for the high start.    Isn't  it  reasonable  to expect the power
        flyiers to show a bit of consideration?
        
                      _ 
                     / |
        |  _====____/==|
        |-/____________|
        |    |        o \
             O           \ 
                          O
         Hang in there! o_|_
                          |
             Anker      \_|_/

    Anker,
    My point which perhaps got lost, is this: The powered flyers were
    not in control. The cones were ignored. Nobody (including the
    club presidents) was in charge or took steps to get the pilots
    to use the marked flight line. Somebody (maybe it was you) moved
    the cones once during the day when the wind shifted, but it then
    shifted again and nobody moved the cones. Yes, I was out there
    flying too, but if I had decided to use the marked flight line, the
    there were other pilots standing totally across the runway. So,
    I just went with the flow. Placing somebody in charge will easily
    solve the problem.

    I'm not blaming the glider pilots for anything here. I did make
    one general comment (as opposed to specific comments about Patriot's
    Day) that setting up a hi-start across an active runway is nuts.
    I stand by that statement. 

    The problem at our Fly-in, as seems to be a general problem at that
    field, is that the power flyers are in their own little world, and the
    glider pilots are on their own different world (I've seen the hi start
    come down right across the pits, for instance. Nice thing to be dropping
    in your prop as you're adjusting the needle valve). But I think that the
    major problem is the powered flyers. Until the power plane flight line
    is honored by all, we'll continue to have problems, and my humble
    opinion is that if pilots ignore the marked flight line, they'll have
    deaf ears to any horn you blow. 

    Dave

    Ok, how about this......Outlaw all upstarts, histarts, and winches.
    Make it mandatory that all power pilots install tow hooks and carry
    tow lines whenever flying. Whenever asked, they will be required
    to tow a glider pilot up to at least a 500 foot altitude.
    
    That way, the two pilots can stand next to each other, chit chat
    while enjoying their flight, give each other an occasional hug,
    pat each other in the butt, compliment each other on their flying
    ability, and in general come to the understanding that their both
    doing the same thing. FLYING.
    
    Steve 8^)

    I have not been in this discussion due to being busy but I have to say
    that I have constantly seen problems with people following the rules at
    both fields I fly at.  I am not sure why this is the case but I suspect
    that a majority of the time it is lack of training and ignorance of the
    rules and the reasons for them.  Both fields (CRRC and CMRCM) are
    fairly loosly managed in terms of organization of flight line procedure
    and frequency control which is ok when there are only a couple people
    there like at lunch time but it becomes crazy when it's busy.  The
    club rules must be posted and enforced for a while before this problem
    will go away.  
    	For our Dec Funflies, we have a problem in that we may not be
    familiar with the club's general procedures at the field that we
    'borrow'.  It's not fair to complain about how pilots flew out of
    the flight line when noone specified to all of them what that means.
    I am very sure that none of us knowingly did any unsafe flying but I
    am also sure that we all could have been more aware of the gliders.
    Let's not piss each other off by arguing about what procedures weren't
    followed but let's try to publish these things before the next funfly.
    
    Charlie
    

    re. -.1
    
    I couldnt agree more Charlie, I hope this note will continue and
    specific suggestion about how to set up ops with both powered 
    and gliders craft fly safely at the same time. I would like to
    see this before the next fun fly.
    
    Frankly I'm at a loss to see a solution. Given a fixed flight line,
    because a paved runway exists in the middle of a long grass section
    that could also be used, I would like suggestions of where to put
    the High-Starts safely. I will attempt to draw the field.
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
                    500 ft wide buffer to neares obstructions
    
   --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                             
       100 ft wide runway (exrunway)  ____________________
          Usually 50 ft wide mowed    | 20x100 ft paved   |
                                      ____________________
                                      35  ft to flight line
    -------------------------------------------------------------X-----------  
                                      )))))))))))))))))))))      X
    		                  flight line 50 ft to parking               
                                           X    X
      --------------------------            parking at bend in river
                              |                                     ---------
                               ________                            |
                                       ----------------------------
                                                   river 50 ft wide
                                                                  
    The X's represent the only trees. And the )))) represent the pits
    So where do we put the High-Start launch areas.
                                      
    Lets have some suggestions, Please.
    
    Mike
    
    

    Mike,
    
    Is this the Ware club's field?? Sounds like it. Old airport,right?
    
    
    One item that will help is to have a general pilots meeting prior
    to the flying starting. This is where an overall presentation of
    the dues and don't should be verbalized to all of the pilots as
    a group. Granted those that know the field and it's rules could
    fly before the pilots meeting but those that don't shouldn't fly
    until the pilots meeting.
    
    Unless the wind is directly down the landing strip I think the glider
    guys are going to have a problem. If the wind is a direct crosswing
    then we are talking only 500 ft to string the high start. I don't
    know if this is enough. One of the glider guys will have to let
    us know.
    
    I do think that spotters should be manditory. Not everyone can fly
    at one time so it makes sence that those not flying can spot for
    someone for one flight. You'll find that the two people involved
    end up kind of like a team for the day. You spot for me,I'll spot
    for you.
    
    
    Regards
    
    Tom

    First of all, I'm all for safety as I'm sure everyone is. I will
    endure a fair amount of inconvienence for safety's sake. THAT, I'm
    not so sure everyone is willing to do. Maybe taking some examples
    from related sports would help.
    
    Racing Cars.......Each week, no matter how often you've raced, there
    		      is a drivers meeting. At this meeting, all of
    		      the rules are re-itterated. Past infractions are
    		      brought up and warnings are given. Not to specific
    		      people, but warnings in the sense that someone
    		      IS watching, IS aware, and if it continues, you
    		      WON'T race. Then, general info is discussed. Order
    		      of racing, racing will start at....etc. All in
    		      all, it takes about 5 minutes.
    
    Model Rocketry....There is a "range officer" present at all functions.
    		      All rockets must be inspected and cleared before
    		      they are allowed to be launched. The range officer
    		      is the only one that launches anything. Launch
    		      area is roped in, and there is no admittence unless
    		      you are staging a cleared rocket for launch. Each
    		      launch either makes a complete flight before the
    		      next launch (up and back to earth), or the rockets
    		      recovery system is deployed, and there is no chance
    		      the rocket will drift into the crowd (range officer
    		      determines this).
    
    With all these "controls" that "seem" to be in place, we can still
    race cars faster than you charge up your next battery, and launch
    rockets faster than you can keep track of. In other words, we have
    a very smooth running "SAFE" operation that in reality doesn't slow
    anything down at all.
    
    In my still humble opinion, if you are going to have rules to be
    followed for the sake of safety, and so that people can enjoy 
    themselves, someone PRESENT at the function HAS to be in charge.
    Someone has to be the one to say "this is where the runway will
    be". "This is where the high start will go". If the wind shifts,
    there needs to be someone to go out to anyone flying and say "bring
    it down. Were changing the runway". "No, you can't take off right
    now. Were going to change the runway". Then, of course, you have
    all of the obvious stuff where rules, either knowingly or not, are
    being broken. Someone has to approach that person and say "halt,
    or I'll shoot" as he stands poised with his trigger finger on the
    power switch of his transmitter.
    
    Simple fact is, as long as there is no one there that is going to
    say anything, anything is what's going to be there.
    
    Steve

    A word of advice to everyone. NEVER ARGUE WITH A LOADED PANIC!!!
    
    I also see no reason why ONE person has to give up a days flying.
    The job could very easily be switched off between several people.
    I'm new, but I'll volunteer to take on part of the load. This, by
    the way, is in addition to my job as WDEC news anchor.
    
    Steve

RE: < Note 779.50 by LDP::GALLANT >

    How about putting the high start to the LEFT of the pits.  In other
    words, put the stake in the ground FAR off to the left such that
    when the glider pilot is about to launch, he's standing in the left
    side of the pits/flight line.  

    This all assumes that the wind is coming from the left.  (Is this
    the mormal direction?)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
                    500 ft wide buffer to neares obstructions
    
   --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                             
       100 ft wide runway (exrunway)  ____________________
          Usually 50 ft wide mowed    | 20x100 ft paved   |
                                      ____________________
                                      35  ft to flight line
    -------------------------------------------------------------X-----------  
   +%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%*  )))))))))))))))))))))      X
    		                  flight line 50 ft to parking               
                                           X    X
      --------------------------            parking at bend in river
                              |                                     ---------
                               ________                            |
                                       ----------------------------
                                                   river 50 ft wide
                                                                  
    The X's represent the only trees. And the )))) represent the pits
    So where do we put the High-Start launch areas.

    + = stake in ground
    % = High start line
    * = Glider pilot

                       _____
                      |     \
                      |      \                          Silent POWER!
      _        ___________    _________   |            Happy Landings!
     | \      |           |  |         |  |
     |--------|-  SANYO  + ]-|  ASTRO  |--|              - Dan Miner
     |_/      |___________|  |_________|  |
                      |       /           |     " The Earth needs more OZONE,
                      |      /                       not Caster Oil!! "    
                      |_____/

    Re. -.1 
    
    I think that the best place as well so long as the wind is from
    left to right. It will also be the direction for power take offs.
    If the wind shifts to right to left the pin will be placed 180 degrees
    away which will again be the power takeoff direction. 
    
    This will require a flight line officer to coordinate, but the best
    alternative I also believe. 
    
    Thanx Mike
    

    I know you wrote this to Anker but seeing as you wrote it in RC
    notes it's open season.
    
    
    To start.		Restarts are fine in my club but not on the
    runway. You're required to return to the pits.
    
    			Next is the point about being on the runway.
    We allow people to stand behind their models to takeoff. (I personally
    don't like this and don't do it myself but it's a club rule so OK).
    Once the plane is airborn they are required to move back behind
    the flight line.
    
    
    			 If someone is in the runway. Right or Wrong
    no one has any Business setting up an aproach. No excuses. Even
    if dead stick land in the field. There is no good reason to think
    about landing or attempting a landin on a runway is someone is on
    that runway. Even it they are in the wrong being on the runway.
    It's just not safe. When your concerned about fuel and this situation
    exists I'd climb for the sky and start circling at the end of the
    runway. And Wait. Once clear then come down and begin the aproach.
    If you then deadstick pick a part of the field way out and do your
    best to land the ship undamaged. You may damage the ship (this
    very thing happened to me a few years ago) but it's better than
    damaging some other human being.
    
    
    Tom

    Gee Dan, I was not implying that you were or are moronic. Its is
    however a simple case of common sense.  If someone is on the active
    runway,no matter the width don't use the runway. Period. A plane
    can travel that distance rather quickly. You know that. You also
    know what can happen to cause you to loose control. I think you
    know that answers to your question but are asking for reenforcement.
    You don't need any reenforcement. YOUR RIGHT. Now politely ask the
    guy afetr he lands to restart off of the active runway. No
    arguement. If he don't like it tough. 
    
    I think you guys are seeing the problems that all unstructured 
    clubs have.  I'm not one to restrict one's activity but there needs
    to be some order. There's guys on my club that you have to yell
    at to move back off of the runway after they take off. Ya just say
    "hey jerry,now back behind the line. Thank's"  Ya have no
    order. Everyone's flyng everywhere and taking off everywhere. I
    did it myself at the fly-in. I expected to get shelled. I didn't.
    
    
    Tom

    I guess this is as good a place as any. Last night, I decided to
    do a 15 flight inspection on the WOT-4. This is my first kit built
    plane and I've been doing things with it that have out stressed
    anything I've done before. So.....
    
    Last night I pulled the receiver battery, receiver, fuel tank, cowl
    and engine. I checked the servo installation to make sure everything
    was still tight. I checked the receiver installation to make sure
    there were no kinked wires that could, through vibration, cause
    a failure later. I inspected all plugs and connections. I inspected
    the fuel tank, fuel line, and return line for leaks/ware. I checked
    the whole servo, receiver, receiver battery, fuel tank compartment
    in general. I inspected the locknuts/washers for the engine mount
    on the back side of the firewall. I inspected the firewall in general.
    After removing the engine, I checked out the mount carefully for
    signs of stress or cracking. I inspected all glue joints around
    the firewall.
    
    I checked the servo installation in the wing. I checked all control
    surfaces, hinges, and control horns. I checked the fuse and stabs
    in general.
    
    I'm happy to report that other than straightening out the tail wheel
    a little, everything is still there and in good shape. Now I will
    fly with more confidence that my construction is sound and I have
    a safe plane (at least until the radio get's into my hands).

    Steve,
    	You're making me feel guilty since I haven't even had the wings
    (rubberbanded) off my Panic since November.  I think I'll follow your
    advice and do a careful inspection this weekend.  Also, my SS40 is in
    the shop for PM after hearing what happened to Big Dave's SS20.  I can
    now move the elevator up and down 3/8 of an inch without moving the
    servos.  It appears to be flexibility in the balsa in the horn mount
    area.  I think that it's well fuel soaked even though I saturated the
    horn mount area with thin zap when I built it.  I plan to strip the
    elevator and stab, replace any fuel soaked wood and recover.  This
    plane has at least 500 flights on it, I guess.  I have flown it often
    for two complete seasons!
    
    Charlie
    

Article        26941
From: [email protected] (Mike Harris)
Newsgroups: rec.ham-radio
Subject: Tree Climbing Info
Date: 5 Nov 90 13:05:22 GMT
Sender: [email protected] (Usenet Administration)
Organization: Data General Corporation, RTP, NC.
 
 
	Due to the response, I'm posting the info on the Tree Climber.
 
	From the flyer: (obviously oriented towards hunters)
 
	Life Saver Climbing Safety Harness
 
		Recommended for portable or ladder tree stands
 
		100% Secure yet allows complete freedom of movement
 
		Weight is evenly distributed, reducing back and 
		chest strain.
 
		Allows you to release harness and descend w/o losing 
		control
 
		Light weight, silent
 
		Works in conjunction with Lifeline Hand Climber 
		(included)
 
		Constructed of 2" 1500 lb tensile strength webbing
 
	or, the following simpler version (also good if you have a 
	rock climbing harness) This version has a belly belt instead
	of a seat harness. Not quite as nice, but still functional.
 
	Life Line Hand Climber
 
		Safest on market
 
		Balance belt gives complete safety while climbing or 
		descending or descending or descending
 
		Is excellent deer drag. (antennas too. :=) )
 
		Constructed of 2" 1500 lb tensile strength webbing
 
		Light weight, silent
 
	Both of these are available from a company called 
	On Target Arms. The Life Line Hand Climber is $30.00 postpaid
	and the Life Saver Safety Harness is $45 postpaid.
 
	The address of On Target Arms is P.O. Box 71468, Durham, NC
	27722
 
Mike Harris - KM4UL                      [email protected]
Data General Corporation                 {world}!mcnc!rti!dg-rtp!harrism
Research Triangle Park, NC

Article        26942
From: [email protected] (Mike Harris)
Newsgroups: rec.ham-radio
Subject: Re: Antennas in trees
Date: 5 Nov 90 14:34:06 GMT
Sender: [email protected] (Usenet Administration)
Organization: Data General Corp., Research Triangle Park, NC
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tad Cook) writes:
|> In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Mike Harris) writes:
|> > 
|> > 	For you tree climbers out there I found a webbing version
|> > of a tree climber in one of my hunting catalogs. It has a webbing
|> > harness and a webbing climbing loop.
|> 
|> What is this?  Something you sit in while hauling yourself up over
|> a branch with a rope?
 
It's a cinch loop that goes around the trunk of the tree. You push it
up, pull to cinch it (pulling/helping yourself up), cinch with your
legs
around the trunk, push the cinch loop up......It's really a safety 
climbing aid - it does entail some physical effort - more than a
climbing 
tree stand, but then it doesn't tear up you trees either.
|> 
|> Please tell us more!
 
I've posted more info although the "subject" may not exactly match this
one...
--
 
Mike Harris - KM4UL                      [email protected]
Data General Corporation                
{world}!mcnc!rti!dg-rtp!harrism
Research Triangle Park, NC

Article        26943
From: [email protected] (Mike Harris)
Newsgroups: rec.ham-radio
Subject: Re: Tree Climbing Info
Date: 5 Nov 90 15:01:09 GMT
Sender: [email protected] (Usenet Administration)
Organization: Data General Corp., Research Triangle Park, NC
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Mike Harris) writes:
|> 
|> 	Due to the response, I'm posting the info on the Tree Climber.
 
More info on this:
 
	The Climber is really a climbing aid. Both for safety and
ease. The prime component is a heavy cinch loop. This is mated to
either
a belly band or a seat harness. In practice, the cinch loop is pushed
up
high, then weight is applied - usually in conjunction with shimmying
up the tree with your legs. Repest until desired height is reached.
 
|> 	On Target Arms. The Life Line Hand Climber is $30.00 postpaid
|> 	and the Life Saver Safety Harness is $45 postpaid.
 
A second hand climber is $15 on the same order (this is what I opted
for).
This is useful if you have lots of branches to negotiate around. You 
could also make a second safety loop out of webbing (from your local
climbing store).
 
|> 	The address of On Target Arms is P.O. Box 71468, Durham, NC
|> 	27722
 
Mike Harris - KM4UL                      [email protected]
Data General Corporation                
{world}!mcnc!rti!dg-rtp!harrism
Research Triangle Park, NC

    I thought I'd mention this because sometimes we don't realize what we
    are handling. What I'm reffereing to is lead. It has been learned over
    the years the lead is actually very toxic. It is no longer allowed to
    be used in plumbing that is used, or in contact with, drinking water.
    When you buy lead solder is has lots of cautions on it now. Which
    include things like.
    
    1) Avoid conect with skin.
    
    2) Wash hands carefully before eating.
    
    3) Do not breath fumes when soldering.
    
    I only learned this because I do my own plumbing and I asked what's the
    lead free solder for. We almost all use solder for connecting things
    up, and lead for balance and balast. So after handling your lead weight
    don't go buy a hot dog (wash your hand first). Or better yet wrap it
    in scrink wrap or something (the lead not the hot dog :-)).

Well now,

I bet this has happened to everyone at some point in their RC career, but I'll 
post this anyway. I was at my club field on Saturday, flying my trainer. I'm 
getting more and more comfortable now, so I was doing a few gentle loops, rolls 
and stuff and generally having a good time. 	

Stood next to me was a very competent flyer (don't crash much 8^)), named Pete, 
flying his beautiful Fokker DVII. At one point I catch sight of Pete's Fokker, 
twenty feet up and going down vertically..... Now I defy ANYONE not to watch the 
following proceedings with some interest (in fact he pulled out with less than 5 
feet to spare!). Chuckling to myself at Pete's discomfort I look back up..... 
WHERE'D MY PLANE GO ?!?!?!? I couldn't find it anywhere, so I had no choice but 
to chop the throttle and wait. Luckily for me, it showed up pretty quickly (10 
seconds that felt like 10 minutes!). I managed to complete my flight. 

So, what did I learn? Well, two things. Firstly, taking your eye off your plane 
is STUPID; secondly, don't try an Immelman when you're not very high up with a 
Fokker DVII!

There may have been a touch of over-confidence creeping in here, but I think 
I've scared myself badly enough!

Cheers

Nigel

    Your right Nigel, it happens to most everyone at one time or another.
    I've lost sight a couple of times for a second or two and it seems like
    YEARS. It's like an electric shock goes through your body when you look
    up and NOTHINGS THERE. I've been doing a fair amount of instructing the
    last couple of years and one day out at the field I was working with
    someone who was pretty competent in the air but was still having me
    land for him. In cases like that, I tend to watch other things going on
    more than I normally would. When it came time to take the TX back and
    land, I looked back up to where he was looking, spotted the plane, took
    the TX, pushed the stick to the left to turn back towards the field and
    NOTHING HAPPENED. The plane I was watching continued to fly straight.
    I felt that shock go through my body and just KNEW I was watching the
    wrong plane. As it turns out, I "was" watching the right plane, but the
    rates were turned down so low that the amount of input I was giving
    wasn't enough to do anything. What a relief that was.
    
    There's also the story I think Al Casey told one time about the 4 guys
    all flying identical planes. Not only identical "types" but also all
    covered the same. A spectator, watching the action also watches as one
    of the planes falls out of the sky and crashes. Surprised that no one
    seemed upset over the crash or was even going after the plane, the
    spectator goes out and picks up the remains and brings them back to the
    pits. Upon inquiring of the 4 pilots STILL standing on the flight line
    which one had lost his plane, all 4 SWORE they each had control of
    THEIR plane. Obviously at some point, one of them began watching
    someone else's plane and lost his but right up until the time they
    were presented with the ramains, no one knew it and someone had spent
    several minutes "flying" someone else's plane.
    
    It "is" a good lesson to learn though. No matter how proficient you
    are.

    I've seen this happen and it's happened to me also.  One time I was
    flying my First Step Trainer and there was another plane that was also
    yellow and blue up.  I was doing gentle circuits and I sudenly noticed
    the other plane doing loops.  I knew the guy flying didn't do much more
    than fly around (beginner) and I then heard him yelling that he didn't
    have control.  Actually he did, but he was watching my plane.  We
    yelled at him and he saved his plane before it looped into the ground.
    	
    
    Charlie
    

    
    If you intend to fly gliders in thermals you better won't let a blimp
    off your glider when way up. I well remember that they are very hard to
    spot when way up. It's often hard to spot when watching, but if you
    loose contact several seconds it could be a total loss.
    
    

    
    I was browsing through (after a couple of weeks away), when I came
    across 6.609, from Trevor, talking about lead casting. I just thought
    it was worth making a safety point here. I used to cast lead fishing
    weights, and there are some dangers. 
    
    Firstly, don't breath the fumes. Lead's poisonous.
    
    Secondly, make *absolutely* sure that your mould is *completely* dry.
    If there's any water in there then when you pour the lead the water
    flashes to steam and you get covered in molten metal. This is unlikely
    to improve even my looks!
    
    Thirdly, don't dip your finger in the....... Yeah well, I thought point
    two deserved mention, especially if you're cooling your mould with
    water.
    
    Cheers
    
    Nigel
    

    To add to the previous note, I recently bought a bag of lead shot. The
    warning on the bag cautions that melting the lead releases arsenic, and
    you certainly don't want to breathe that. 
    
    Dave
    

Here's a table of some of the commonly used hobby woods (birch ply, maple 
motor mounts, obeche sheeting, spruce spars). Wear a mask when you sand!

Jim

I found the following chart in _American Woodturner_ June 1990, reprinted from 
_Art Hazards News_ Vol. 13 No.5, compiled by Robert Woodcock, RN,BSN, CEN.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wood		Reaction	Site	Potency	Source	Incidence
----		--------	----	-------	------	---------
Birch		S		R	++	W,D	C
Maple (Spalted)	S,P		R	+++	D	C
Obeche		I,S		E,S,R	+++	W,D	C
Spruce		S		R	+	W,D	R
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REACTION:		SITE:		SOURCE:		  INCIDENCE:
I  - irritant		S - skin	D  - dust	  R - rare
S  - sensitizer		E - eyes	LB - leaves,bark  C - common
C  - nasopharyngeal	R - respiratory	W  - wood	  U - uncommon
     cancer
P  - pheumonitis,	C - cardiac
     alveolitis
     (hypersensitivity 
      pneumonia)
DT - direct toxin
N  - nausea, malaise
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reference:
1. _Woods Toxic to Man_, author unknown
2. Woods, B., Calnan, C.D., "Toxic Woods." _Br. Journal of Dermatology_ 1976
3. _ILO Encyclopedia of Occupational Health and Safety_ 1983
4. Lame, K., McAnn, M., _AMA Handbook of Poisonous and Injurious Plants_, AMA 1985
5. _Poisondex_, Micromedix Inc. 1990