Conference vmszoo::rc

    It might be a good idea to have a pre-flight check list on hand
    before any flight.  I mean actually having a piece of paper that
    you can check off everything!
    
    Yesterday I took my bird to the field along with my brother and
    his plane.  He's new to the hobby and just bought a Cardinal II
    w/ OS.35 and a FUTABA 6 chnl radio.  
    
    First we adjusted his plane which took awhile, then I decided to
    get mine in the air first.  Well it started a bit rough but after
    a little tuning, it ran fine.  So off it went, needed a bit of 
    trimming but nothing major.  All of a sudden its diving on me and
    I can't control it!  Sure enough it dives into the trees.  Major
    fuse damage, but fixable.  Come to find out, I FORGOT to extend
    my antenna!   Can you believe that!  
    
    From now on, I'm using a checklist!
    
    I did manage to get my brothers plane up, flies really nice.  But
    for the price, the vert. and horiz. stablizers are cheap foam that
    creases very easily.  But I would recommend it for a trainer.  It
    really handles nice!
    
    

    re: -.1
    That's doing it the hard way! Next time, I suggest you
    leave the plane on the ground with the engine off when 
    doing your range check...

    You mentioned an instructor...is he there with you when all this
    takes place?  I did the same thing while teaching myself how to
    fly with NO instructor.  Resulted in many hours in the shop!
    However, it was good building/re-building expierence.
    
    Don't feel bad, I've learned how to take-off and land and a few
    other tricks, but the last two times out, I put two planes (each
    time) in the dirt!  Still not quite sure what the problem is.
    One resulted in a bent cranckshaft.
    
    Just out of curiosity, does your radio have dual rates?  If so,
    use them.  And make sure they decrease your travel by at least 
    1/2 of full travel.  It made all the difference in the world to
    me.  Saved me from over-compensating.
    
    As far as landings, I practiced dead-stick landings for awhile
    just to get the hang of it.  Kill the engine and glide her in.
    
    Just keep doing it!
    
    Ken

    Well, this one is worse than anticipated.  I started cleaning the
    engine.. I've found a airline crack in the crankcase... Also the
    Carb housing is bent back.. I'm sending the engine back to FOX for
    an overhaul.
    
    I've had to stip the wing down completed to get to the compressed
    areas and crack.. Found other damage.. like lading being bushed
    into ribs.. (this my only bitch about the PT-20: soft leading edge).
    
    I've emptied the fuse with all the radio gear. ANd remove al the
    busted wood.. Now the rebuild can begin...
    
    Oh yes.. that servered cable is really the ailaron extension cable.
    The bitch part is that is cut right at connector.  Radio gear checked
    out ok.
    
    Looks like i'm grounded for a while.
    
    I'll keep you posted on the details...
    
    I have daul rates on the radio.. I was running full on ailerons
    and LOW on Elevator (worried about looping in to ground or stall.
    I didn't figure on the other one causing grief...)
    
    md

>    Well, this one is worse than anticipated.  I started cleaning the

There comes a point where your better off with a new plane.
Wing, fuzz, engine, radio wires - wow.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

At least you're getting flying time.  In two months of intensive
efforts with an instructor, I've managed to log less than 3
minutes of stick time.  I have a persistent problem of the engine
cutting out after about 2-3 minutes of flight; just about the
time the instructor has got it up to altitude and is ready to
hand me the box.  I've done everything; change every component in
the power system, tank, gone through two engines, modified the
plane to raise the tank, everything.  I have come to this one
conclusion; the local wags know of only two solutions to an
engine problem; either add pressure, or raise the tank.  Beyond
that their advice is worth exactly what I pay for it (and the
names of some of these folks would surprise you).  Now I'm back
to the original configuration, with a butchered up front end on
my Eaglet (to raise the tank), and I will try again on Saturday.
My K&B .20 is headed back to the factory; let them figure out why
it gets so hot you can't even touch the venturi to restart.

Makes me want to go back to twisting rubber...

    re .1: What I do to VAXen is nothing compared to waht I did to plane.
    
    re .-1: Get a FOX 19. This sucker run graet. It got to the point
    where all I had to do was to prime the engine, plug on the heater
    battery, flipp the prop a couple of times and VRooooom.. No need
    to touch the needles. 
    
    re.-2 it took me over two months to get this plane together. It
    will take at most two weeks to fix the damage.. Its mostly gluing
    the loose parts together. I'll probably be stuck waiting for the
    engine to come back..  besides I don't have the cash to buy an other
    plane and even if I did, my wife would have my hide.
    
    (I do have a spare plane: its a SCAT CAT . I even have a spare engine:
    An HB 40). I'm not going to try that one out until I can get my
    fingers to work straight !!

    I've got an EAGLET too, but I have an OS .25FP in the front end!
    It's more engine than is required, but that extra power on take
    offs and climbs really comes in handy.
    
    Sorry to hear about your engine troubles, I've had my share of
    them in the past.  It is frustrating when you want to fly so bad
    that you take vacation time...and end up with no flying time, just
    less vacation time.
    
    Maybe it's time to get another engine, a reliable one.  Well good
    luck and hope you get some stick time in real soon.
    
    PS.  Can't you use the instructors plane?

    JOHN T,  to bad about your engine.......  I take it you have added
    pressure,tank is is a relatively neutral height setting. I would
    suspect that your running a 4-6oz tank. Also an 8/6 prop. K&B
    ENGINES MUST BE SET AT A RICH SETING ON THE GROUND. Set the engine
    high speed needle rich until the engine four cycles on the ground.
    The plane will have just enough of power to get off the ground so
    no heavy handedness on the sticks. When the engine unloads and gets
    warm then the rpm's will increase and the engine will run much
    better. 
    THE BOTTOM LINE ON K&B ENGINES IS THAT THEY MUST BE SET RICH ON
    THE GROUND. YOU CAN'T TWEEK THEM OUT LIKE YOU CAN OTHER BRANDS.
    
    						Tom

Thanks, Tom.  I think that what happened to the K&B is that I
asked some advice on how to set the idle mixture.  I got the
advice; the person showed me how to set it too lean.  What
happened was that the instructor would get the plane to altitude,
cut back the power and give it to me to fly.  I would fly it a
minute or so, then either I would dump it ( by not giving enough
up elevator while practicing turns), or make some other mistake.
The instructor then takes the box and adds power to get it back
to altitude.  The engine quits; end of lesson.  No one could figure
out how the engine got so hot; they kept thinking the problem was
in the fuel tank, bubbles being sucked, or some other thing.
Thus the standard advice.  It wasn't till last week when I
noticed the head leaking that I started putting things together
and figured out what happened.   I put some form-a-gasket down
and ran the engine with the low speed mixture rich.  The head
kept leaking.  That's why its going back.  I will clean the
form-a-gasket off and tell them that it runs for a few minutes
and quits.

For information, the head on the K&B .20 has a small O ring
around the perimetrer of the combustion chamber.  The ring rides
in a circular groove, and is supposed to seal the chamber.  My
ring looks like it was squashed.  Of course, with the ring in
there, the form-a-gasket wouldn't work because it would only make
the gap larger.  Anyway, if K&B gets me on this one, I won't
complain; I'd just like to know that the engine was run properly
by someone who knows it.  If it works there, its good enough for
me.

I had an OS .25 in there to begin with.  Yes, its very adequate
power for that plane, no I couldn't get stick time with it either
(that's the engine I used pressure with, the K&B has no pressure
tap).  It kept quitting just as the K&B did.  Things have been
pretty confusing until someone pointed out that it could be two
problems that look the same.

I gave it to a friend when I put the K&B in and he found some
things wrong with it.  He says it runs fine now; I'll find out
Saturday. 

    FYI...
    
    I just got a K&B .20 the other day; it does have a pressure tap
    on the extension between the muffler and head.  
    
    Also, it comes with a neat radial mount that I'm going to try.

Thanks for the info, when I "upgrade" mine, that's where it will
go.  I was wondering about that, since there is a more than
average amount of plumbing inside the muffler -- I think Clarence
Lee in MAN took one apart recently to show the pipe inside.  That
article also mentioned, by the way, that if you stick a 6" length
of fuel tubing in the exhaust outlet, you pick up about 500 rpm
and quiet the engine noticeably!

Think I might have a handle on part of my problem.  When I put
the OS .25 back in, I also swapped out the tank.  Saturday I ran
it up to check the engine.  I noticed something very different
about the tank; the top surface of the fuel was calm and steady.
On the old tank, it was a mass of turbulence; all frothing and
bubbly.  I thought it was normal, since no one at the field
mentioned that there was anything strange about this, and I am an
old 1/2A type from the days of metal tanks.  After I pointed out
that my new tank looked so nice, someone mentioned "oh yeah,
didn't you know about that?  Its caused by the rubber around the
cap of the tank leaking air.  As the fuel goes down it sucks in
the air through the cap and causes the frothing".  There's one
for the books, guys.   This was my first plastic tank, and I
admit that I fiddled with it quite a bit before I first installed
it.  Also, the tank did NOT leak fuel at any time.

I did run two tanks through the engine with nary a sputter.  Next
week, I'm back to flying again.

Somehow, I knew that when I finally did find a real problem,
everyone would say that "of course, you dummy, didn't you know
about that"?

Just wanted to add that it looks like I'm back to flying again.
My instructor took it up Saturday and got a full flight on it --
did loops and rolls and all that stuff to demonstrate that my
plane would do it.  I didn't get much stick time as the good old
Coloraddy wind was blowing, and the air was bumpy.

The fuel tank is now fully lined with foam.  If you have an
Eaglet, keep the throttle push rod as far over against the side
of the fuse as you can.  Then pack foam as much around the tank
as you can.  The compartment barely takes a 4 oz tank and if I
built another one, I'd move the firewall 1/4 to 3/8 inch
forward, depending on my engine size (my OS .25 would allow 1/2
inch forward).  This would allow you to pack some foam at the
front and rear of the tank and allow it to fit in without so much
squeezing (it picks up vibration from the airframe).  Also this
gets the fuel lines out of the compartment with less twisting and
turning.

Another good mod would be to relieve the former at the forward
end of the cabin (right at the windsheild) so the tank body can
pass between.  These two mods should keep the tank from being
shook up so much.

Also, modify the hatch to get the tank peeking up
out the top a little.  The standard installation puts the tank
about 1 inch below the fuel inlet on the engine at best.

I haven't done a post mortem on the old tank but I suspect that
the vent tube has some pin holes in it that leaked air bubbles
into the fuel and contributed to the foaming.  Does anyone know
how to bend one of those buggers without crimps?  I think that
the crimps are where the pin holes are located.

    FOX did their thing on my engine. Got a parcel back yesterday. Not
    bad: Two weeks door to door..
    
    Well, I lived up to my motto once again. Bill in box staed as reason
    for return: Crash damage.
    
    Comments section sez: "ENGINE COMPLETELY RUINED. I THINK WE MANAGED
    TO SAVE THE PROP NUT".. They sent me a new engine. They aslo sent
    me the glow plug of the old engine as a souvenir... cost: $35.
    Not bad considering it list at $70 at my local hobby shop & $45
    at MUTCHLER's...
    
    So, I'm back to ground zero.  Grumble...Grumble..
    
    BTW, I'm going to frame the bill & put on the wall by my VS-II..
    
    Hopefull, I get to try things again this week-end..I hope breaking
    in the engine the second time around will be easier.. It was a real
    bitch getting everything co-ordinated (idle screw, hi-speed screw,
    throttle pushrod)...
    
    
    md
    
    

    
    		Well I've been avoiding this long enough, so I think
    	it's time for my instalment.
        	About 3 weeks ago it was a nice sunny Sunday with 
    	minimal wind so I took the wife and kids to the Ware field
    	for a couple of hours of flying. Everything was going just
    	fine, that is to say that I was doing my normal type flying
    	which some will tell you is reason for spectators to head
    	for the slit trenches (right Dave ?). Well I'm really working
    	hard to master landings. I mean the greased type not just on
    	the field in one piece, that's not a problem for me, but I'm
    	a perfectionist and I want to master this sport not it me.
    		So here I was doing touch and goes in as little an
    	oval pattern as possible. I would make a nice landing then 
    	hit the throttle to gain air speed for the take of but
    	I guess I was taking off before I had enough air speed to 
    	make the alerons effective. The result after leaving the 
    	ground on a couple of tries the plane would side slip to the
    	right, right in the general direction of a 35 foot tall tree,
    	before the alerons became effective enough to bank away from
    	a heading towards the tree. Well to end this story on my 
    	final try, you guessed it, the plane went around behind the
    	tree and somehow, I'm not sure how either caught the back
    	of the tree or did a 180 degree turn and hit the tree. As
    	if that wasn't bad enough I left the throttle ofen and
    	the plane came out of the tree straight at the ground. The
    	cloud of dust it made when it hit the ground was awsome.
    		Damage to plane was for the part minor. Tail snapped
    	off, wing torn but not broke, aleron linkages slightly bent.
    	The damage to pride was extreme however. I can't help hearing
    	Al saying you got to learn how to use your rudder even though
    	I have know this to be my major problem flying and have been
    	trying to teach myself how to use it in a 4 channel mode.
    		Too busy right now trying to finish building my
    	Kavalier to take the five or six hours nessecary to fix the
    	PT-20 so no flying for the last couple of weeks. I'm not sure
    	how much longer I can go without. Guess I'll just have to
    	stop on the Kavalier since I might not get it done before
    	winter anyway and fix the PT in order to get back into the
    	air.
    
    					Mike 
    

    Mike,
    
    I REST MY CASE!  Rudder'll save ya' when NOTHING else can and
    ANYTHING else will spill ya'!  Practice, practice.....
    
    Adios,	Al

    re .35
    
    Let us say that I'm the fussy type: Try to do everything just right.
    
    The reason I ran into the side of the house was that I was trying
    to trim as close a possible to the foundation. I just got bumped
    & the steering wheel jerked...
    
    Same for the head screw.. 
    
    re .36: Mike... Make sure you check the wing real good for hidden
    cracks & loose ribs... Also get it checked by someone you trust
    before flying again... folding a wing is mid-air aint nice to
    watch...
    
    BTW: Could dor the following check for me: Put wing back on plane
         (with engine installed) and lift plane by holding it at main
         spar at each end of the wing... Observe how much flex you 
         you get in the wing... The guy checking out my plane expressed
         some concern about that... I plan to buy a new wing kit just
         in case..    
    
    tx
    
    md

Well, by golly, I'm starting to pedal that doggy around the sky
pretty good!  Weekend before last my regular instructor wasn't
around so I buttonholed the instructor with the best reputation
in the club -- he happened to be between flights.  I'll tell you,
there's a difference.  I like my regular instructor, but this guy
had the gift.   First off, he saw immediately that I was trying
to operate the stick by putting my thumb on top and wiggling it;
this is how my instructor does it.  He showed me how to hold it
right, with two fingers -- What a difference! I started flying
that Eaglet around turns.  The other thing was that when I got
into trouble, he didn't grab the box; he just told me what to do
and I flew it out myself.  I learned more in one flight than I
did in the previous two months, and though may I have been known
to exaggerate upon occasion, this is not one of them.

Those inverted low passes on the runway are starting to get
closer, for a change.

BTW -- After all my engine trouble, I reinstalled the original
OS 25.  It runs like a top, and pulls the Eaglet around at little
more than 3/4 throttle.  Too bad I arrived at the combination the
long way.  Note to other beginners: Watch that tank installation!
it can get you.

Looking forward to the end of my tenure as the Worlds Longest
Standing Student.

    John,
    
    I hear what you are saying about different instructors.  Everybody
    I know that flies puts their thumb on top of the stick.  Two fingers,
    sounds interesting!  Anyway, after being instructed by more than
    6+ instructors, I can say that they are as different as night and
    day.  The one I like best is not the best flyer at our field, but
    he's no amateur either.  The so-called instructors at our field
    grumble because he let's his students do more turn left and right.
    
    He has taught me how to use the throttle, do a simple loop, etc...
    In short he is teaching what the controls on my plane can do.  I
    also like his style of talking you out of trouble, rather than jerking
    the xmitter away and cursing you.   To say the least I'm comfortable
    flying with him.   Need I say more?!
    
    BTW - How long have you been a student?
    
    Chris

    re: -.47    Bob,
    
    Yes, the neck strap can, indeed, be a bother when teaching a new
    student and shouldn't be used `til the later (advanced) stages of
    instruction...which is fine `cause the student (and, perhaps the
    instructor as well) can become familiar with both methods of holding
    the transmitter.
                    
    That's the beauty of teaching with the buddy box; both student and
    instructor can "strap-up" with no concern toward having to scramble
    to pass the transmitter back and forth.
    
    Having flown with Bob Frey (who doesn't use a strap) for well over 
    10-years and frequently flying each others airplanes, I've finally
    become somewhat comfortable flying without a strap but I still pre-
    fer to use one and wouldn't consider flying my own ships without
    one.
    
    	Adios	Al

    Just wanted to let everyone know I soloed last weekend.  I now have
    12+ solos under my belt and so far (where's that wood?) NO CRASHES!
    Unless you count 2-point landings with tri-cycle gear.  Not too
    bad for only 1 month of flying.
    
    I attribute my success to having listened to my instructor even
    though I felt I could do more.  Bottom line: If you're learning
    get a GOOD, I repeat, GOOD instructor.  Enough cannot be said on
    this topic.  Note: that although some people are expert fliers,
    they may not be worth a d--n as an instructor.  Chose carefully!!!
    
    Another, and maybe the most critical, thing to think about is 1st
    plane selection.  Buy a "known good trainer" type.  I've seen some
    that seem to be  so called "trainers" that are worth the balsa they
    weree stamped from.  My best friend has one such plane,  he bought
    it used and that's life.  It's probably gonna take him longer to
    learn.  I also seen people buying sport planes like Laser 200's,
    super sportster's,etc... to learn on.  Big mistake!  They spend
    more time fixing them, because they intentionally didn't buy one
    of those "Non-Macho" trainers.  Another, yet understandable, reason
    is that they liked the looks of it and had no idea what to start
    with.  Anyhow, like chosing an instructor, make a careful selection!
    
    BTW, on takeoff my plane veers left about halfway thru its run before
    breaking ground.  And yes the nose wheel is set to roll straight
    ahead.  Do I correct with the rudder and then neutralize rudder
    when it breaks ground?
    
    That's all fer now,
    Chris

    Chris,
    
    First, to answer the question you posed at the end of -.50, YES,
    absolutely control any veering/hooking during the takeoff roll with
    rudder (in this case RIGHT rudder), holding it right up through
    rotation if necessary.  BUT, don't immediately release whatever 
    rudder you might be holding at lift-off...for two reasons:  1.)
    it looks downright "tacky" and 2.) suddenly releasing the rudder
    "could" get you into a threatening situation.  Most likely, whatever
    right rudder yer' holding is compensating for torque and to suddenly
    release it at lift-off could possibly produce a torque induced roll
    to the left...not a good thing when yer' 3' off the deck.  Normally,
    a tri-geared bird will stay on track once an initial correction
    or two is made...look things over - you may have some other kind
    of problem...like a "draggy" left wheel or either or both main wheels
    misaligned for instance.  It's not totally conclusive, but roll
    the bird down yer' driveway (radio on) and make whatever mechanical
    or trim adjustments seem appropriate to get it to roll dead-true.
    
    Yer' comments regarding the value of a "good" instructor are right
    on the money!  However, as I'm sure you appreciate now, maybe, more
    than before, it's very difficult (if not impossible) for the rank
    beginner to "really" know how to select the best available instructor.
    He (the beginner) tends to be dazzled/impressed with anyone who
    can takeoff, fly around and land in one piece.  Probably the best
    approach to take is to ask around and find out who taught the more
    successful appearing pilots observed at the field and ask this
    individual to take you under his arm.  As you mention, the best
    pilots, even those who wear instructor badges, are not necessarily
    the best instructors.
    
    As to selection of trainers, you've pretty much said it all.  Even
    space-shuttle pilots got their primary flight instruction in some
    lowly, "non-macho" trainer-type like a Cessna-150.  
    
    Sounds like yer' goin' great-guns with yer' learning process...just
    a word of caution;  YOU are yer' worst enemy at this stage!  Avoid
    at all costs the temptation to become over-confident/cocky and over-
    extend yer' still embryonic skills or you'll find out just how fast
    this sport can humble ya'!  Keep workin' on the basics, practicing
    the essentials `til they become instinctive...only then can you
    safely begin to explore the limitless areas of R/C flight and the
    rewards they can provide.
    
    Adios amigo,	Al

    Al,                              
    
    You're right on target as usual.  When I was commenting on being
    new and successful in this sport I was not tryin to get up on a
    soap box and be an expert.  My preachin was so new comers (or those
    who are having trouble) would seek out experts like yourself.  Like
    this note is entitled "This sport ain't easy".  I just want everyone
    to enjoy the same success that I have had.  
    
    Thanks for the takeoff helpful hints.   I would not want to roll
    into the ground after liftoff.  Since there are many students and
    but a few instructors I was weened quickly because of the success
    I have had.  I have gotten different replies to my question from
    all of them.  Some say no right rudder needed, some say use it.
    None of them, however, said don't neutralize rudder quickly.
    
    Thanks again,  If'n I'm ever out that way I'll buy ya a cold one,
    
    Chris
    

    Chris,
    
    No problem...I didn't take yer' comments as anything except what
    you intended, good advice from someone who's currently going through
    the learning process.  My only motive for cautioning you about getting
    overconfident/cocky was to help you avoid (hopefully) a pitfall
    which has caught us ALL at one time or another...I didn't intend
    to suggest that you were coming on that way at all.
    
    As for some saying to use rudder on takeoff and some saying not to,
    all I can offer is "ya' give the plane what it needs, when it needs
    it!"  If the bird isn't going where YOU want it, on the ground or
    in the air, use what controls are required to MAKE it go where YOU
    want it...that's what the radio system is for!  You'll KNOW yer'
    becoming a pilot when you one day realize the plane is where it's
    at, or doing what it's doing, `cause YOU told it to - as opposed to
    allowing the plane to "fly you" by free flighting around with you
    just interferring with it (via radio) to keep it somewhere in the
    immediate vicinity. 
    
    Now that yer' soloing on yer' own, DRILL yer'self in putting the
    airplane consistently, EXACTLY where YOU want it to be...BE PICKY, 
    don't settle for "good enough," DEMAND perfection of yer'self. You'll
    never achieve perfection but, in pursuing perfection, you'll become
    a pilot rather than a "passenger who's along for the ride" and is
    grateful for any flight where nothing is damaged.  What I'm saying
    is "YOU" FLY THE AIRPLANE...refuse to "allow" it to be anywhere,
    or do anything, that YOU didn't intend!  In time (if not already,
    touch and-go-landings are one of the most beneficial practice exercises
    you can use to develop "command" of the airplane...takeoff and spend,
    essentially the whole flight doing touch-and-goes.  Fly a disciplined
    rectangular traffic pattern with deliberate 90-degree turns at each
    corner and try to superimpose each circuit exactly atop the previous
    ones with the points of touchdown always in the same place on the
    runway.  Once this is "mastered," you'll be well prepared to venture
    into the more advanced aerobatics venue. 
    
    Oh! And I almost forgot, I'd be plumb tickled to meet ya' and share
    a "Colorado Kool-aid" someday.
    
    Keep it flyin'...adios amigo, 	Al

    
    	I whole heartly agree with Al's comments on utilzing the controls
    to input the required controls to put the plane where is should
    be. I think the comments from fellow flyers about not using rudder
    and driven from the type of ship your flying. By this I mean that
    normally the rudder input would/should only induce a horizontal
    rotation of the plane along it's vertical axis. This would in other
    words tend to point.move the nose of the plane from side to side
    without inducing and banking of the wings. Problem is that
    dyhedral in a wing changes this control input. It induces a banking
    angle change in the wing platform when rudder is applies. If at
    takeoff you induced a large amount of rudder and couppled this with
    aileron then the result could be a quick (sometimes called a snap
    roll )(wrong) roll. I suggest that you do use rudder to keep the
    ship going where you want it on the runway and in the air. I also
    however, causion you on excessive inputs of rudder. Be gentle with
    the rudder and you be ok.
    
    						Tom

    
    
    		Pardon my intrusion but Chris brought up a question
    	that I myself have pondered on several occasions so I would
    	like to discuss it a bit more and get yours, Al and Tom, and
    	others to comment.
    		Chris mentioned that the plane rolls straight on take
    	off up to a point where it veers to one side. The particular
    	side is not important. I had, and may still have, the same 
    	problem with my plane. I reasoned that under perfect conditions,
    	an absolutly calm day, that the nose wheel trim was set perfectly
    	but that the rudder trim was slightly off so that when enough
    	speed was attained the rudder became effective enough to cause
    	the turn. After getting the plane airborne I made the trim 
    	adjustments and everything looked good. I found that on
    	subsequent take offs however that I had to hold a slight
    	pressure on the stick to keep it rolling straight down the
    	runway and it still tried to turn just before reaching take
    	off air speed. I believe I have a little work to do to get
    	the two trims to be the same. The trail and error till its 
    	right method. It isn't much of a problem just an irratating
    	one. 
    		What do you guys think? Does this sound familiar
    	Chris?
    
    					Mike
    

    Al & Tom,
    
    Thanks, you're right about giving the plane what it needs.  In time
    (read: lots of practice) I will be flying the pants off my trusty
    PT40.  Positve attitude, right?  Mike mentioned in .55 what happens
    to me.  Mike are you listening? 
    
    Here's what I found.  Trim between my nose wheel and rudder was
    off.  How did that happen?  My fault.  After my first few landings,
    which popped the clevis off the nose wheel, I readjusted the nose
    wheel so the plane would track straight (radio was on).  The idiot
    factor involved was that my rudder trim on the radio was moved a
    few clicks to the left.  I should have checked before adjusting the
    wheel.  I hate to admit it but it was my own fault.  I have'nt flown
    since discovering my error, but I'm sure that's the problem as my
    first takeoffs (before I twanged the nose gear) were dead straight
    with no rudder input.
    
    Humbly (dumbly) yours,
    Chris

    Mike's problem is a common one.  It is important to get the rudder
    trim in flight correct and then adjust the nose wheel trim on a
    tricycle gear so that it will taxi straight.  I also think that
    it is important to get the nose wheel steering set up such that
    you do not have too much control sensitivity (gain).  Otherwise,
    it is hard to taxi straight.  This can really mess up your takeoffs
    by getting the bird out of shape on the runway.  Generally, very
    little wheel movement is required to steer due to the small distance
    between the main gear wheels and the nose wheel.  I set mine up
    such that I can just make 180 degree turns in about 1/2 the width
    of the runway with full rudder input.  
    	Engine torque can also give problems on takeoff especially if
    you don't have much airspeed (and control that comes with it) when
    you rotate.  This causes a yaw to the left that requires right
    rudder to compensate and keep it straight.
    
    	In general, it really pays to set all of your control throws
    up to give your ship the proper amount of control.  Start with
    the kit manufacturer's recommendations and adjust them if necessary
    after test flying.  Take some time to get all of your controls
    right!  Get help from an experienced pilot if you do not know what
    is right.  This simple but time consuming task helped me greatly
    when I was learning to fly.
    
    
    Bye,
    		Charlie
    

    Re: -.55  Mike,
    
    I think you correctly analyzed what's happening and why.  I frequently
    confront the same thing with the MiG-3 `cause I'm using Golden-rods
    to drive the rudder and tailwheel independently of each other. Also,
    I'm driving these functions from opposite sides of the servo output
    wheel (simplifies installation) so, when those *&%$#$@!^&! "rubber"
    pushrods shrink or expand with temperature changes, the rudder goes
    out of trim one way and the tailwheel goes out in the opposite direc-
    tion.  Since there's not always time to disassemble the ship and
    re-trim things between contest rounds, I just center the rudder and 
    "ride-out" the tailwheel `til the tail lifts.  Of course, you don't 
    have this option/luxury with a tri-geared bird.   
    
    Re: -.56  Chris,
    
    Sounds like you too have logicked out yer' difugelty and should
    have the opportunity to run a dynamic test the next time you fly.
    Let us know if you have, indeed, solved yer' problem.  Nose/tail-
    wheel-to-rudder alignment is not always the easiest thing to keep
    in sync since the nose/tailwheel is subject to incredible abuse.
    In time, as yer' skill level increases, you'll start paying less
    attention to this alignment and "just fly the airplane," giving
    it whatever control it requires in a given situation.
                          
    Adios amigos,	Al

>* THESE STATEMENTS "COULD NOT POSSIBLY" BE MORE APROPOS!  I've
>never become an "official" instructor with any club for the same
>reason I don't belong to bowl- 

So, your club does have an instructor program, but you do not
officially participate.  What is the club's program like?

>want to concentrate every moment toward the student's progress.
>Up-front, I tell the student to clear his weekends for a minimum
>of 4-hours instruction every Sa- turday and Sunday for 6-weeks
>and expect a minimum of 4-flights daily.  We pre- 

>I should qualify the following by saying that I encourage the
>student to build a full-house, 4-channel airplane, taildragger if
>possible.  This saves the begin- ner a lot of "re-learning" (or
>un-learning) later on.  I "will" take on a 3- channel bird but
>much prefer instructing full-house.  Plastic ready-to-fly'y 

That's interesting.  I would say that given my limited
experience, the type of plane you describe is probably
appropriate.  I have enough trouble getting the right hand going
on my 3-channel, if I had to coordinate I'd probably go crazy.
This last weekend I drew an instructor who flies 4-channel
exclusively; he had to get another instructor to take-off my
plane because he couldn't taxi it!.  I prefer smaller planes,
which implies 3 channel (though I've been considering some
radical installations).  I forsee myself doing lots of 3 channel,
though with elevator, aileron, and throttle (this is 1/2A to .15
size).  

>tell him what we'll do next time and send him home to "dry-fly"
>today's and the next lessons by turning on the plane and "flying"
>the lessons in his head. 

Maybe I ain't got rhythm, but whenever I try this, I still cannot
couple my image of the plane with stick movement.  Perhaps with
more time, this would be fruitful, but it seems like a waste of
time to me.  I do spend time imagining I'm flying a pattern,
imagining the orientation of the plane, and how the stick moves,
this seems to help my going away-coming back mixups; as soon as I
can see the plane in the air to know which way its going, I can
imagine myself in it and twist the sticks right.  But actually
using the transmitter and the plane on the floor doesn't seem to
work. 

>Every weekend, especially if he looks like he needs a little ego
>bolstering, I'll throw in some simple maneuver as a confidence
>builder.  1-loop, 1-roll an Immelman, etc...these are reasonably
>safe and are "wonderful" for build- ing the student's sense of
>accomplishment. 

The instructor that I've had most often liked to do aerobatics,
"to prove to me that the plane will do it".  I consider it a
waste of my time; he'd sometimes spend half the flight doing
loops -- big deal.  What I would appreciate is to get stick time
doing just flying.  I don't care at this stage about doing
tricks, I will do them later, after I learn how to fly.  My ego
is not salved by being able to do a loop; I want to land!  If you
understand my drift.

>paint, even a broken prop couldn't mar the elation he feels.
>Depending on the student's aptitude, this stage is usually
>reached in an average of 4-6 weeks, 30-50 training flights. 

So if we figure about 7 minutes stick time average for the
student, you're soloing them in about 280 minutes, or 4 2/3
hours!  Thanks, Al, I needed that!

        re .93


		I'd be inclined to put the 800Ma pack on the 
	radio... In a helicopter all the servos are moving 
	virtually all the time so current drain is rather high.
	You'd probably find your radio packed up way before the
	giro... My Quest (GMP) Giro runs at about 250Ma so you'd
	get 2 hours out of the 500Ma pack.... Normally people
	use a single 1200Ma pack. I have 2 x 500 in parallel, 
	that normally gives me about 6 15 minute flights on
	5 servos and a giro......

	I doubt if the mechanical coupling was the reason for failing.
	I started with a straight 4 channel set and 4 servos... The
	fixed pitch machines are a real pain, cos there is a loooong
	delay between opening the throttle and the extra lift coming
	in. With a collective machine the lift comes in straight away.
	Similarly it takes a loooong time for the lift to go away when
	you close the throttle.... Collective machines drop like a
	brick when you shut the throttle/collective....

        You're right about it being difficult to hover at 10".. You're
	trying to fly in the upwash from the ground. You'll notice that
	the exhaust smoke comes up through the rotors. In still air you'll
	come out of this ground effect at a height roughly equal to the
	rotor disc diameter.... In a strong headwind there may not even
	be any upwash... You'll see the exhaust smoke go straight down...

	For your fisrt flights put in a small amount of forward cyclic so
	machine moves forward when you try to hover, then WALK WITH IT.
	Follow it all over the field if you have to but stay with it...
	
	I agree about trimming the machine properly, but the trims will
	vary for each session as wind conditions/humidity/moods change.

	Cheers

	bob


	ps	maybe we should move this to a Heli topic
	

	

The reason that I was asking those questions is that I was trying
to decide how much of this goes to the instructors, and how much
to me.  I really would like to let the club know what I think,
but I want to understand the situation thoroughly before shooting
off my mouth.  One learns this in almost-a-half-century of having
shot off ones mouth too soon.

I have some resource material on the basics of flight; I thought
I understood all that, but I'm going back and review it.  I can
see your point; I'm flying the plane, but there's no "soul" in
it.  One also learns to cover one's bases before blasting someone
else's.

re Note 230.99 
>     Can you guys point me in the direction of a needle valve assembly
>    for an OS MAX FP20 engine. I need the part where it screws into
>    the carb. I crashed Sunday, the plane is ready to fly again. 'cept
>    for the valve. Hate to buy another engine.
>    -Thanks in advance
>    
>    Mike Z.

Sure - just go to your local hobby shop that sold you the OS .20.
If your in Mass try McManus Hobbies in Fitchburg (617)342-3248 or
Tom's Hobby Korner in Chelmsford (617)251-4576.

Call first if possible.  There is a good chance that they won't have
the part in stock but they can pull them in from their distributor
in a few days.  I have had Tom steal a needle valve off a brand new OS 40 FP
for me - but that was on a Saturday when he know I just made an emergency
trip from the flight line to his shop and left all my gear at the flying
field.

If you don't have a good Hobby shop near by - call Tower Hobbies - today.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    I don't whether to cry or to laugh about this one....
    
    Went flying today. The weather was *IDEAL*.. Nice autunm day, 65
    or so. no wind. had made appointment with instructor for 1 PM.
    Packed plane, son & snack.. 
    
    we got there on time. Set up equipment. check out things real good.
    ( I'm here for some serious flying). Crank up engine & away we go.
    Trim out airplane and get box. a bit rusty but managing ok. concentrate
    on oval flight to get coordination.  fly until fuel runs out.
    Instructor dead sticks it in. AWWRIHGT..
    
    Fuel up again, wait for pin, watch jet demo (Byron F16..Not impressede
    with fan, btw, VIOJETT much better looking...)
    Get pin, take off again. Start doing figure 8s.. OK.. 
    
    toward end of flight, son comes up:"DADDY,DADDY.. Look what I found!!
    (**mutter, rats.. I mean I brouhgt his bike & his tonkas (all 4
    of them - he's 5 you see -- to keep him occupied while i'm up there)
    
    - OK OK wht is it.. I can't look I have to fly the plane.. Tell
      me what you found ..
    
    - I found an elastic !! 
    
    - (mutter, grumble.. epletinve deleted) OK Ok put in the box i'll
     take of it  in a minute..   
    
      (son goes away).. meanwhile i'm trying to keep the plane up and
     I've slot my concentration. It gues a bit to far over the trees
     (i've been flying EASt to keep out of the sun..)
    
    - Hey-- I've lost it -- I cant tell if is coming or going.
      (Give box to instructor)
    
    Instructor does a right run.. Its coming back but its too low.
    IT HAS RUN OUT OF FUEL !!!!!!!!!!!! Disapears in a spiral behnid
    the trees, 'bout 1/2 mile away..
    
    Get in car to go look - back an hour later.. NADA.. nothing, nix.
    
    It's been eaten up in thick woods from what we can gather.
    
    And the engine didn't have an hour on it !!!

    So now I gues I go out to by an other plane. I think I go get meself
    a CG EAGLE 63.
    
    This is depressing.!!
    
    md
    

        Re:< Note 230.104 by BZERKR::DUFRESNE "VAX Killer - You make 'em, I break 'em" >

                Your instructor  should  have  known  what  to  do.    It
        probably is too  late  now, but in the event of losing a plane in
        the woods always do the following:
        
                Stay right where you  were  when  it disappeared and keep
        your eyes on the spot  where it went down.  Mark you location and
        then have someone walk to the edge of the field and mark the line
        you are looking out on.
        
                Then get your trusty compass, get the  bearing  and start
        walking along it.  The trick in the  woods  is  to mark a tree on
        the bearing, walk up to it and then mark a new tree.
        
                Bring  your  radio  with  you and leave your pin  on  the
        frequency  board.  When you think you are close stop  and  wiggle
        the  controls.    This generates a bit of noise, which helps  you
        locate the plane.  You and buy a squealer that generates a  noize
        whenever the  receiver gets no signal.  The are great for finding
        downed planes.
        
        Better luck next time.
        
        Anker

re Note 230.104 
>    IT HAS RUN OUT OF FUEL !!!!!!!!!!!! Disapears in a spiral behnid
>    the trees, 'bout 1/2 mile away..
>    
>    Get in car to go look - back an hour later.. NADA.. nothing, nix.
>    
>    It's been eaten up in thick woods from what we can gather.
>    
>    And the engine didn't have an hour on it !!!
>
>    So now I gues I go out to by an other plane. I think I go get meself

Unless it was getting dark - I wouldn't give up looking.
Also I would ask everyone else to help.  I've spent an hour in the corn field
and only made two passes thru it.  I could easily imagine spending 3 or 4 
hours.  Sooooo I suggest that you go back and tell some young kids where it 
went and offer them $5 each if anyone finds it and $20 to the one who does.

              _!_      
Bye        ----O----   
Kay R. Fisher / \     

================================================================================

    Easier said than done.. I grew up in bush country. The stuff I walked
    through was thick with underbrush, sprinkled with bogs & marsh.
    There is even a lake.  probability of succes is low. You'd have
    to spend most of your watching where you are going rather than looking.
    
    
   md

    Don't give up too easily.  A guy at our field lost his plane in
    the woods and after failing to find it put up a sign offering a
    reward and an indication of where it went down.  Three weeks later,
    one of the club members got bored and went looking for it.  Guess
    what - he found it - much further away than it was supposed too
    be.  Every time I have helped someone search for a downed plane,
    it has been further away than we first thought it was.  In some
    cases, not in a very difficult place to search.  Our (yours and
    my) field is surrounded by dense woods, bushes, and brush.  Sometimes
    you have to walk around areas instead of through them.  I would
    post a sign at the field.
    
    Hope you get lucky and find it.
    
    Charlie
    

	You'll never beleive this, but a while ago one guy in
	our club dumped his plane in a patch of trees. Eventually
	he decide it was gone forever to that great scrap balsa box
	in the sky. Some 3 months later he received a call from the
	local constabulary to inform him that they had his aircraft
	in custody, (we all write our phone numbers inside our planes
	don't we?)..

	It turns out that a passing RAF helicopter spotted this plane in
	the treetops, so they dropped a man on a winch to collect it....


	Honest.......	                                             


	bob

    
    Don't feel bad, at least you didn't hit the posion ivy that's lurking
    in those woods.  I had a BAD experience after fetching a plane from a
    one of those trees last year!
    
    Definitely put a sign up.  Maybe one of the hunters will find it
    and be nice enough not to shoot it.  Did you have your name, address
    and phone number somewhere inside the fuselage?
    
    Just out of curiosity...  why were you letting the plane run out
    of fuel instead of timing your flights?  You're asking for trouble
    flying until fuel runs out.

    BTW - Dave, Charlie and I were there sunday after 1:30.  Didn't
    know you were there, but someone was spreading the word to keep
    an eye out for your plane - from the way it was described to me
    it sounded like it might have made it to Rt. 9.

    Hope you find it...
    
    Bill

    P.S. I was and still am impressed with the jets, but that's a tough
    field to fly one at.  Plus they are still just too expensive for
    me.

    RUnning out of gas was not intentional.. I just got distracted long
    g enough by my son to loose track of everything..
    
    It may have made it to Rte 9.. The first comment from inctrutor
    was that it may have landed on Burger Kings parking lot...
    
    I'm planning to get my commpas out & a geograhical surrvey map and
    try to figure out the possible area of splatter..
    
    md

re: .102  Thanks for recommending Stick and Rudder.  I got a copy
of it today from a pilot, and indeed, it looks like just the
ticket.  

    Kay/Anker,
    
    If you'll pardon my horning in, "rotating too early" translates,
    simply, to "horsing" the airplane into the air with lots of up-elevator
    "before" it has attained adequate flying speed on the takeoff roll...
    the usual result is staggering into the air stalled, hanging on the
    prop, followed by a snap-roll into the ground.  More forgiving (trainer-
    type) aircraft will sometimes let you get away with this "verrry
    bad habit" but more high performance types (and the Aeromaster
    qualifies) seldom forgive this without some very fast and correct
    "stick-twiddling."
    
    The best (only) defense against the "stall/snap/crash on takeoff
    syndrome" is to NEVER pull the airplane off the ground `til it has 
    "more" than enough speed to fly.  I realize that, flying from a high-
    drag surface (grass), the temptation is great to "yank" the plane into 
    the air but this temptation "must" be resisted at all cost and necessary
    things done to the bird (e.g. oversize wheels) to allow flying speed
    to be attained before rotation. BTW, taildraggers (properly setup
    and handled) should be easier to operate from grass: one less wheel
    to create drag once the tail lifts.
    
    I would consider the Aeromaster an advanced aircraft so carefully
    assess yer' flying skills before launching into one.  I recommend
    the ship highly as a prerequisite to scale but a firm foundation
    of of basic flying skills is required to handle it or it'll eat
    yer' lunch in a heartbeat!
    
    Adios,	Al        

    re .116
    I don't remember what you're flying for an engine, but to me you've
    given a good testimony to buying a high quality engine. There are
    a lot of engine manufacturers out there, but I've heard of many
    problems with the "cheaper" models, again verifying the old saying:
    "you get what you pay for". If you consider the worth of your time,
    not mentioning the emotional drain of frustration, of trying to
    get a below-par engine started and running, you'll find that you
    quickly "spend" a lot more on the cheap engines than you would have
    if you bought a brand new high quality engine in the first place.
    
    I guess I'll have to plug O.S. here, as it's the only engine
    manufacturer I've used in my brief R/C career. But I've never had
    a lick of trouble with my FSR, and virtually no trouble with my
    FP (cheaper version). And I know that I have the famous Al Casey
    on my side on that recommendation! It wouldn't take more than one 
    or two trips to the field followed by not flying due to engine 
    problems to cause me to trash my engine and put a good one on there.
    
    Dave
    

        Dan and others,
        
                I know  I  was  being  provocative about suggesting Dan's
        instructor was a  crutch, but I was so surprised that someone who
        is building as agressively as you wouldn't be an expert flyer.
        
                Point on to make  is that it always helps to have a plane
        that can take the punishment.    My  original  PT20  is  still in
        flyable condition in spite of innumerable  rough  landings  and a
        couple of spectacular crashes.
        
                The other point is that my nephew  who is staying with me
        is learning very fast and used the same  technique  as me:  Start
        with a good flight simulator - he used the  ATARI  one  (same  as
        Microsoft) and get used to what the controls do.  Then get out on
        the flying field and with an instructor (me in this case) and fly
        around at  enough  altitude  that the instructor can recover.  My
        nephew is now  at  the stage where all I do is take off and land.
        And finally one day  when  you  feel  brave,  try to take off and
        land.
        
                Dan, get a new engine.
        
        Anker

I, for one, appreciate the previous comments about instructors.
Apparently the situation at my club, and the one I've experienced
is the norm rather than exception.

It sure beats the heck out of me that instructors and students
have to scramble about looking for each other.  I have a hard
time being agressive about getting an instructor, not knowing if
he's booked, or wants to fly or what.  Several times I've
approached one, and asked for his first free moment.  This is a
mistake, because if he doesnt come in a reasonable time, I am
reluctant to ask again for fear of being impatient.  And if I get
another instructor, I'm not keeping my word.  And if he forgets,
I'm up the creek!  Lost a few hours of waiting in this dilemma.

It should be standard procedure that the club has a spot where
instructors who want to take a student up go to wait, or a spot
where students who are ready go to wait.  If nobody wants to be
tied to a single student/or schedule, then do it round robin.
Makes sense to me.

    
    Here here!  It CAN be an awkward situation for students that
    don't want to impose and instructors who are just waiting
    for someone to ask for help.  At our club we declared tuesday
    and thursday evenings as training nights, so the students know
    that the instructors that show up are there to help.  But even
    on weekends I've never seen a case where someone asked for help
    and didn't get it.  I have to admit there are some times that
    I wish a person would ask for help because I feel more nervous
    with them flying alone.
    
    Bill

I have had instructors grumble something about wanting to fly
their plane, or have a cup of coffee.  Its happened several times
to me, and it doesn't take much to spoil the fun.  Most
instructors have been willing to help.  All have been 100% there
while giving the lesson.

The club instruction nights idea seems great -- I'll bet it
works. Actually any system that clearly designates those who want
to instruct, and those who want to learn, would work.  I'm just
trying to think of a nice way to broach the subject next Tuesday
at the club meeting.  Lots of egos tied up here; maybe I should
point it out first off! 

    ok... I've just gone out and order a CG Piper Cub to replace the
    PT20 that flew away..I've aslo bought a glider. This should keep
    be busy enough for the winter.
    
    
    md

    
    	I feel like I just started this hobby all over again. I has
    a depressing day yesterday.  To start things off I left to go
    over a buddies house to set up the chopper and when I got there
    nobody was home. After a 1/2 hr waite they showed up. Seems they
    decided to go out for breakfast and time got away from them. Well
    you can't blame them....
    	So now we spend an hour settinf up my chopper with his transmitter
    (mine hasn't come yet) and finally get going to the field. Once
    at the field thing progressed ok and we got the chopper started.
    Take it out to the alternate runway and add throttle only to find
    out that there isn't sufficient throttle throw. The only thing we
    hadn't checked back at the house. So back to the pits and adjust
    the throttle linkage.  Look up and my pins down someone else is
    flying. They didn't even ask. I was in the pits all of two minutes.
    Well after a waite that seems like a lifetime I get the pin back
    and we try and strat the chopper. This only leads to a loose fan
    strater pully set up. SO, over to the pick up truck and we pull
    the engine. Get it all tight and someone else steps in to give it
    one more tug. He snaps off one fin of the cooling fan. Well we were
    in luck. A fellow flyer actually has some shuttle parts and one
    of them is a fan. Off with the broken and on with the new.old fan.
    We get the engine back in without anything else happening and proceed
    back to the pits to start her up. Everythings attached so I give
    the strater a squeeze and guess what?? yes you guessed it. Broke
    the starter belt. BOY WAS I PISSED.  Well I guess it just wasn't
    in the cards. Maybe this week my radio will come in and things will
    be better next weekend.
    
    						Regards
    
    							Tom

    Me TOO!!   My Sunday was the worst ever, I decided to go to the
    flying field, alas as i got there people were picking up to leave
    (to windy) so I packed up also, but decided i would run my engines
    on the planes at any rate..., okay start up the kadet markii
    with a os .40 started right up no problem, the all of a sudden
    my transmitter gets blown over the tip of the antenna goes into
    the prob, hack hack but i catch the glint of metal out of the corner
    of my eye, so my natural reaction was to go for the antenna
    and "OUCH" the blade caught me on the index finger and theh thumb
    the engine didn't even shudder when it hit me. So a few minutes
    of first aid, and pick up the antenna (on my two week old radio)
    took pliers and was able to get the antenna to push in, so i'm
    satisfiedwith that so i push the antenna in and OOPS i pushed it
    in to hard and i bent ii 2 inches from the top (fixed it again)
    I'm a little depressed at this point, but i decide i will run 
    the engine of the kadet jr.(os.28) (I don't give up easy) so i prime
    it up, give it a few turns and BAM the engine backfires and 
    catches me in the finger (same index finger that was hacked)
    so i quickley siphoned the fuel out and put the dam equipment away
    decided i would watch TV  the rest of the day. but before i do that
    i decided to throw my youngest sons glider i built for him out 
    of balsa (he's been flying it for a hour at this point)  well i
    threw it and it landed in the grass CRASH the wings break off!!
     I'll tell you that this was the worst day i've had in 10 years
    I'm always very careful, and i never have a mishap. oh well
    may be next week,.............
    
    
    Dave Rene
    

re: < Note 230.153 by THOTH::SNOW >
             -< Fear of the Ground rising up to smite the plane! >-

    Ever since my first (and only) major crack up while I was a
    pre-solo trainee, which was due to my flying low over the field
    before I had developed the reflexes, I've had a difficult time
    with staying low. I'm sure it's a psychological hang-up due to the
    fact that I almost hurt somebody badly in that crash. The good
    part is that I've never had a tree reach up and grab me (well,
    only once, but it just stuck out its foot to trip me, it didn't
    grab it and smash it to the ground like most of them do). 

    Now that I've been flying a few years and can zip around
    comfortably with my Super Sportster, I know (in my head) that I
    have the reflexes and skill to handle it down low, but it's still
    difficult. I've been working to force myself to fly lower. I've
    been doing very large loops, and working on keeping the down leg
    long enough to come out at the same altitude I went in. Then
    starting the loops lower and lower. That's getting me used to
    seeing the plane heading straight for the ground, but I know I'm
    still in control and shouldn't panic. I think it's going to take
    lots of work to reverse my habit, though. I'm not afraid of
    crashing any more, but I still have time when I suddenly discover
    the plane is 'way up there and I didn't consciously put it up
    there (that usually happens when there's a lot of traffic, 3-4
    other planes up at the same time). I actually think that the
    fact that I've not had to do ANY repairs to my SS20 after a
    full season of flying it is because I'm far too conservative,
    and probably not developing my skills as quickly as I would if
    I pushed my limits a little more. I think an occasional crack-up
    should be the expected result of stretching your skill limits.

    I still prefer this problem to some of you guys who are too
    fearless when you should be a bit more conservative. I've done a
    lot less rebuilding that many of you! 

    Dave

Since going off on my own, about 4 months now, I've found myself
doing nothing but practice approaches.  Just going around the
pattern over and over again...And being very reluctant
to cut the throttle to get it down below 50 or so feet.  I've
chalked this up to being nervous, and my reasoning is that if I
do enough of these I'll eventually start chopping the throttle
for some low approaches.  One of the reasons I've given myself
for these approaches is that the landing starts on the downwind,
and I haven't got that right yet, so why interfere with the
traffic pattern for a bunch of lousy finals?  But, I know that
the real reason is that I'm chicken.

Actually, and this is something for instructors -- I received
very little work with the throttle prior to soloing.  I had one
instructor force me to use it just after soloing, for one flight,
and it was tough to touch.  He made me line it up for final and
add power for a go-around just at the end of the runway.  This
was fun, but I'm having a hard time getting myself to do it
again.  I think that I should have been required to use the
throttle for go-arounds before I soloed, from the very beginning
even. 

I thought that the Great Eaglet Bash-Up would have made me
ground-shy and that the 6 weeks off for the rebuilding job  would
have made the flippers clumbsy.  I was very pleasantly surprised
when I was able to fly the Eaglet with no trouble...even doing
the nice flat turns that I've been working so hard on.  Last
weekend I dumped it out in the boonies, but this was on purpose
because the sun was low just off the approach end of the runway
and I was concerned that I'd loose it in the glare.  Otherwise I
think I could've gotten it into the infield (btw -- the runway at
our club is only 15 or so feet wide, and is difficult to hit)

I attribute the appparent lack of rust on the layoff to some very
fine glider coaching from Mark Antry.  One thing nice about the
gliders is that you can get in 6 flights in the time it takes for
1 or 2 power flights; and this means 6 approaches to 2.

I've built a special plane, the .15 powered Quik Stik I've
mentioned elsewhere to practice the approaches and throttle work. 
We'll see how that goes.

    Strange. I have the opposite problem to you fixed-wingers. If I
    let the copter go above about 8 feet, I get a nosebleed. The
    "close-to-the-ground" stuff is easy :-)
    
    Jimi-who-can-not-yet-do-circuits-but-can-hover'n'taxi-real-good

    Flying Low or flying High is a point of personal preference. Granted
    those that fly low are perceived as the better flyers but in the
    analysis are they really?
    
    
    Controling every move of the plane in the most precise manor,getting
    the plane to do exactly what you want rather than what it wants.
    This is a good flyer.  There is no need to fly low except to try
    and impress someone. 
    
    Don't think I'm preaching, I'm not. Often times I fly low and sooner
    or latter it hurts.      
    
    Tom

    I think the main difference from flying low vs. high is the confidence
    the pilot has in himself.
    
    I prefer to fly low because there is more excitment (no room for
    error).  I start out high to get the jitters out of my system then
    start the low passes.  The only part that makes be nervous is turning
    at a 10'to 20' level.  I usually turn sharp so it looks like the
    plane is almost stopped.  I don't do low inverted passes!  Thats
    for the higher altitude. (my nerves aren't that good yet)  But for
    the most part, I like to do touch and goes and 2' level high speed
    passes.
    
    Ken

    
    Dan, the only way to combat this fear is to keep flying a mistake
    or two high until you are very relaxed and comfortable.
    Get to the point where you never (or VERY rarely) make
    miscorrections.  Only then will you be able to gradually bring 'er
    down for low fly-bys.  Landing approaches are easier than fly-bys
    because you're going a lot slower.
    
    I'm at the point where I love to do low passes, sometimes less than
    10', and sometimes inverted.  I don't feel nervous when doing it
    but my attention and awareness are much higher because I know there
    is no margin for error.  The funny thing is that I haven't had any
    crashes during these fly-bys.  When I crash, it's usually when I'm
    a mistake or so high (or think I am), not paying close attention,
    and do some stupid maneuver like half of a snap-roll and then realize
    I'm too close to a tree and bam!
    
    I'm a lot more nervous when someone else is doing low passes and
    I can't watch their plane (unless it's one of my flying buddies
    that I know I can trust).  I usually do low passes when I'm the
    only one up at the time.  It's not very courteous (or safe) to go
    blowing by right in front of someone while they are flying.
    
    I agree with Tom that you aren't necessarily any better a pilot if
    you can fly low, and often people do it just to impress - heck,
    that's probably why I do it (in addition to the feeling of exhilaration
    that you get afterward).  But I do feel it helps build reaction
    skills.  This can help you become a better pilot and get out of
    panic situations better.
    
    Bill

re: < Note 230.157 by CSTEAM::HENDERSON - Mind over Matter. >

>    If you plan a flight that consists totally of landing approaches
>    and aborts you will get over this "height is good" feeling.
                                                      
    For me this is very different than "flying low". I can do touch
    and go's (many of which become aborts!) all day long and have
    plenty of confidence on landing approaches and takeoffs. I think
    it's the speed that's the difference - fast low fly-bys require
    quick and correct reactions. 

    I agree with Tom about some people flying low just to impress
    people. I hate that. I always keep a careful eye out when somebody
    is hot-dogging low and close to the flight line, either watching
    out for my buddies or making sure one of them is watching out for
    me (flying buddies are great, by the way, if you don't have one
    you should get one!) However, there's another side that Bill
    brought up which is to polish my own skills to the point where I
    have confidence flying low. Then I will have control over the
    entire air space, from 0' to almost out of sight. 

    Dave

    	I enjoy low passes when there are no other distractions in the
    air at the time.  I know that I can put the plane right where I
    want it as long as NOTHING goes wrong.  That's the risk with low
    passes and that's the reason I get nervous when other guys do them.
    It's a good habit to announce your intentions if anyone else is
    in the air.  It can cause someone to lose concentration on their
    own plane if you surprise them.  
    	I found that I had trouble flying close in and reasonably low
    when ever I flew with a crowd for the first couple of years I was
    flying.  I was fortunate enough to get lots of stick time at lunch
    hour with usually only a couple of other flyers.  This allowed me
    to concentrate more on my flying.  I still lose some confidence
    when several planes are in the air, especially if I don't know all
    of the other pilots capabilities.  I save my hotdogging for those
    times that I get to fly without a crowd.  I don't know whether I
    will ever get over being much more conservative under busy conditions.
    
    Charlie
    

    In response to Tom's entry on what happened, I would like to know.
    Actually, I wasn't even in a hover.  I hadn't gotten off of the
    ground.  The ship was just starting to get light and I guess a
    gust of wind caught it and flipped it over onto the rotor blades.
    I am not even certain that that was the cause, but I expect that
    it was.  Pilot dumb error.  However, the results were somewhat
    extreme.  In addition to a set of main rotors, I know that the
    tail rotor blades, the tail boom, the tail drive wire, the tail
    rotor gear box housing, and the tail boom support bracket are
    all needing replacement.  I also expect that I will have to straighten
    the flybar, the cross shaft and the main shaft.  That is probably
    the extent of the damage, but over the next couple of days, I will
    be more certain.

		________
	 /	  __|__  
	=========[_____\>
	/	__|___|__/  BREAK A BLADE,
			    Ken    	

    I just learned another lesson the hard way.
    
    	Make sure the flight battery pack cannot move inadvertently.
    
    After a major re-build I had "improved" the fit of the battery in
    the nose of the fuselage.  Now it could be easily inserted and removed.
    I wasn't conscious of the fact, but it could also slide rearward.
    With the battery all the way forward I had carefully balanced the
    Kadet and prepared for flight.
    
    On an initial trim/checkout flight after a repair, I held up the nose
    for an engine check while an experienced pilot took the radio for
    take-off.  Evidently the battery moved because after take-off the plane
    hung on the prop and wallowed like a Sherman tank with a drunken
    driver. To cut our losses we killed the engine (over the forest, alas). 
    
    Second lesson:
    
    	Keep a compass and GeoSurvey map handy when flying near forests.
    
    The plane came down a half mile away on the other side of a pond.
    

    Sorry to hear about your forest / near pond landing. 
    
    When my friend Tim lost his plane last Sunday we had a reasonably
    good idea of where it was but a looooonnnnggg way away - those few
    degrees can mean a lot of searching especially in long grass of
    in your case a forest. I think some of these 'model locators' might
    not go amiss ie with extra servo .....
    
    Engage servo extend telescopic boom - start flashing beacon. What
    more could one ask for - wishing it was possible. After my river
    experience I intend to make everything waterproof or enclosed and
    sealed.
    
    So as an extra to the note detailing what one needs in ones flight
    box add...
    
    	compass - the one with the movable reference guide.
    	6" maps of surrounding area.
    	boots or better still fishing boots.               
    	binoculars.
    	optional boat - may not fit in box.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    	Eric();

Al: what's so unusual about that -- sounds like one of my normal
flights to me.

Please don't pack the radio and battery in too tight.  The foam
should not be compressed in order to do its job.

    Al,
    
    	Another hint for the battery, may be what my husband did for
    his ElectriCUB ...  Get some self-stick Velcro, and attach one piece
    to the battery, and the other inside the plane, where the battery
    should go.  If you make the piece in the plane long-ish, you'll
    be able to move the battery fore and aft to make any minor adjustments
    to the C.G.  The velcro works great, because by nature, the more
    it vibrates, the more it sticks!  (They're actually working on
    attaching car parts with it - one test car had a velcro-attached
    bumper, and after 100,000 miles, the bumper had moved only 1/16" !)  
    
    		Hope this helps!!
    
    
    			Patty

    In general, I have found that the plane is always further out than you
    ever thought. Why else do those darn trees jump in front of you.
    I know that the 2 times it happened to me, I was shocked, and would
    swear on a stack of Bibles that the plane was in front of the tree
    and not behind as it actually was.
    
    
    							Dave
    

"I can't fly until I fix the broken spar."

				"What broken spar?"

"The one in the wing that broke when it hit the truck."

				"Hit what truck?"

"The truck parked inside the barn."

				"Huh?   What barn?"

"The barn in the middle of my field, next to my 175 x 150 ft landing area."

				"How in blazes did the wing get INTO the barn?"

"When I misjudged distance by about 80 feet, thinking that I was about to
grease a landing (cross-wise to my line of sight) about 150 feet away from
me in the center of the landing area.  I flew dead center into the open end
of the barn.  Hit the only vehicle anywhere near the flying area."

    re.: this ain't easy...
    
    I just got my first few minutes of stick time in.  I bought what
    turned out to be a used Eaglet.  Not knowing much about RC flying,
    I decided that it might be a smart move to seek some assistance.
    So I went to the Sudbury flying field early Sunday morning.  
    The only person there was very helpful.  He helped me get the plane
    going, balanced it and got it high enough for me to systematically
    loose altitude during turns.  What a blast!  We had the plane up
    twice, and by the end I could actually predict what it would do
    when I moved the sticks!  I am now an advanced ignorant!
    On a more serious note, without the help, I would propably be 
    lugging my plane around in a garbage bag.  
    
    I think I will start looking for a good instructor, since I do not
    want to keep bugging folks that came to fly.  
                                               
    J�rg

    
    	Congratulations !  Now you're hooked for good.
    
    					Roger

    This instructor (Jeff in 771.570) wants me to explain the river walk.

    I had been doing touch 'n goes with the throttle trim set all the way
    back, controlling the throttle during landing with only the stick. 
    This particular approach I decided I was too far out and the approach
    needed to be stretched, so I nudged the stick a bit.  Deep sneakers! I
    felt it touch the stop, and a nudge towards more throttle couldn't 
    touch a stop --- I had nudged the wrong way and closed the carburetor
    completely.  I tried shoving it the other way, but it was too late.

    Too low, too far, I made my second mistake --- I did _not_ follow my
    usual practice when in trouble.  I did not shove the transmitter into
    Jeff's hands with a familiar cry, "Here, Jeff, you take it."  I put it
    down somewhere behind or in the trees myself.  It was behind the trees.

    The plane landed in the Merrimack river, floated, and started on its
    way to the ocean with two of us following along the river bank and Jeff
    driving downstream to find a fisherman.  Neither task was promising.
    The plane stayed away from the banks.  And who would expect to find a
    fishing boat in a river with sewage contamination upstream?  Evidently
    Jeff found this gracious chap with a boat still on a trailer, a chap
    willing to launch for a search excursion.  After an hour of vigorous
    walking and one aborted swim, we saw Jeff and the boater meet the
    plane.       How do you repay favors like that?

    The airframe was soaked and had to be stripped of covering.  That, in
    turn, revealed extensive damage that had been undetected during the
    post-recovery inspection --- longitudinal shattering/splitting of the
    upper and lower sheeting of both wings and breaks at the corners of the
    cabin.  All of the electronics were dripping wet _inside_ despite the
    wrapping of the receiver in foam and Baggie.  Only the engine was dry;
    I passed alcohol through it from carb to exhaust and ran it for awhile
    that evening before storing it with a rinse of after run oil.

    Wrong way Ryder, once again practicing his skills in airframe repair

Did anybody tell you guys that you're nuts for flying where a
mistake can put you in a swamp or river (contaminated, no less!)?

You're Nuts!  Ditch model airplanes and take up swamp buggying.

>>  flying where a mistake can put you in a swamp or river
    
    Ah my high plains drifter, if one flys in this part of the world, 
    one is never out of range of a wet spot, especially swamps.

No kidding.  Now, I've gotta say that I have had my share of
frustrations in learning to fly.  If it wasn't for a really good
OS .25, and the luck of living near the field so I didn't scrub
an hour's driving time in getting there, I wonder if I'd
still be interested.

But if I had to throw in swamps, climbing/hiring a climber to
retrieve a model out of the trees, and most of all, chasing a
model down the river for an hour with all attendant circus
thereunto...I don't think even the OS would've shown me enough to
keep me going.

I can tell you this, though, if I lived in New England I would go
somewhere else, anywhere else, even a few hours off, to get away
from that madness you guys fly in every day.  You haven't even
mentioned stepping in the dog poop that must litter at least one
of your sites -- I'm a magnet for that stuff, if its within 2
miles of me I'll step in it.  No sir, give me the Coleraddy
winds and crashing my plane into the cow patties any day!

    John,
    	Someday if you ever make it to New England I'll have to take you to
    either Crow Island or get Eric to take you to the Lazy Loopers field.
    That oughta really make you appreciate Coleraddy!!
    
    Crow Island is only about 3 miles from my house. The actual area we use
    to take off and land, well most of us anyway, is aout 900' by 500'. Now
    that sounds pretty reasonable right? Nope, now the fun begins. Standing
    at the flight line with the 900' running left to right, you are
    surrounded to the left, in front and behind by 40'-50' trees. To the
    left and behind you past the trees is "SWAMP". ;8^) In front of you
    past the trees is "RIVER". ;8^)  However things have gotten better at
    the island. Prevailing wind is from the west, pilots face north at the
    flight line, so most TO's and landings are made right to left. Last
    summer and fall the owner of the island was digging gravel out of the
    island and trucking it out to pay for the land. Well, this meant that
    right in the middle of our normal approach was a 60-70' "CRANE". 8^)
    Also along the approach path we would usually have 20-30' high piles of
    sand and gravel. Not to mention the "POND" the owner had dug that was
    about 800' long and 70' wide. We also share the island with a couple of 
    quonset huts, soccer goals, and oh yes, the "ULTRA-LIGHTS" ;8^)
    
    Other than that it is a perfectly normal R/C flying site!!

    Well, my fifth flight proved that I still have much to learn.  That 
    includes remembering to follow the good advice I've seen in this file
    so many times.  

    Among the mistakes I made:  The weatherman predicted 10 mph wind, but I 
    loaded the plane into the car anyway, for a couple of quick flights at 
    lunchtime.  The wind at the field is alternately holding the wind sock 
    straight out, and then its hanging limp, but I prepped the plane to fly.

    The only person at the field is known to be a successful pattern and 
    large scale flier with a strange habit of crashing beginners planes, 
    but rather than wait for another time, I flew with him to back me up,
    despite his making me nervous.

    After eight minutes of tooling around in the wind, trying to make 
    the plane go where I want, I flew too far downwind at too low an 
    altitude, and applied too little throttle, too late, coming out of 
    the turn.

    Fortunately, my good luck hadn't deserted me entirely.  Down wind, 
    past the end of the runway is a field of hay or wheat, which is over 
    two feet high, and I didn't hit too hard.  

    Naturally, I had to add one last bit of stupidity, so I lifted the 
    plane before untangling all of the foliage, and cracked the vertical 
    to horizontal stabilizer joint.  Otherwise, it would have been 
    completely undamaged.

    There are actually some benefits gained in all of this.  My ego and 
    level of caution are back where they rightfully belong, and I'm
    thoroughly convinced that the plane flys just fine by itself, even 
    in the wind.  It only gets in trouble when I screw up.  Best of all,
    its still ready to fly!
    
    Now, if only it doesn't rain this  weekend...
    

     Well it's time I got in here. I started with a Concept 30 last year and
    was on a good learning curve. But then there was something that came
    along that was more important than the chopper. We bought a house! And
    then it was down hill form there. Yes, it was terrible! First I knew
    there was trouble when in doing the "House Thing" I let my AMA
    membership expire. Then IT happend! My first crash.
     It was a great sunny afternoon. No wind. Warm gentle temps. Nothing
    else to unpack or put up or install or fix. Just the the right time to
    get out in my big back yard and warm that baby up. All the checks went
    great. Out to the yard. Fuel. Conect batt. Attach glow plug. Apply
    starter. VRUMMMMM YES! The OS 32 runs like a charm! OK, now a little
    warm up time and it off we go. A couple of small lifts, check trim,
    looks good. Now lets go for a hover! Up, Up and away. And its a great
    hover! About 5 feet up in the air. Wait a second, this is too high for
    a beginer like me. Down on the power. OH MY GOSH TOO MUCH, TOO FAST!!!
    BOUNCE!!! BOUNCE!!!  BLADES HITTING BOOM!! OFF!  STOP!!  PLEASE DON'T
    HURT MY BABY!!!
     Well after I can open my eyes I find the damage isn't too bad. The
    rotor blades are a little shorter than normal and there's a nice dent
    in the boom. Well it's back in the house. (since the shop hasn't been
    built yet).
     I built the shop about 3 months later. Oh course it became a storage
    room. But I've sent my applaction in for my AMA# so it's time the
    storage became yard sell items. Ordered new blades last week and I
    think when I go to pick them up I'll get a drive tube and a metal
    starter cone. Yes it's time again. Stay tuned for the contiuning
    adventures of "TFGLTC". (The Fat Guy Learning the Chopper)
    time 
    

>>    adventures of "TFGLTC". (The Fat Guy Learning the Chopper)
    
    This makes one of us 'The Other Fat Guy Learning The Chopper'...
    
>>    I'm not in the U.K. either. But this seemd the place to put this.
    
    Since it is currently a 'live' note, that seems quite reasonable to me.
    
    Then again, perhaps our tales of 'learning to hover' really belong
    in a heli beginners note.  I'll check for one next time I have a
    note to enter on the subject.  Then, this topic can remain for any
    general comments to do with the UK, rather than beginners info.
    
    This may make it easier if anyone else wishes to read up on the subject.
    
    J.R.
    
    PS I've spotted that my engine mounting plate is fractured, so I'll have
    to fix that when replacing the carb (a known, common fault - so I may
    change the mounting bolt arrangement to try and avoid this problem).