Conference terri::cars_uk

    In terms of 93 all I can say is that I think that Senna is loosing his
    reasoning... (maybe some strange effect of not winning most of the
    races and lack of poles ;-)) If he really decides to move to the
    Ferrari he will loose another season. The fact that he wants a
    competitive car should immediately exclude Ferrari. If ones goes back in
    this notesfile to former seasons, we will see that every time a first
    class driver signed for the Ferrari, there were comments on how great
    for the team it would be. Meanwhile almost every top driver visited the
    team and nothing happened (I mean positive things). Now, Senna is so
    demanding. What is he looking for in the scuderia? one more
    reference to add to his brilliant CV?...

    PS
    George, if you want to reply to my note be objective, please. 

    RUI

    This morning's Grauniad has Honda "almost certain" to drop out of F1 in
    favour of an Indy Car V8 for the Rahal-Hogan team. They feel that
    McLaren have not exploited their engine well this year in the way of
    active ride and semi-auto boxes. McLaren on the other hand say the
    engine is heavy and thirsty.
    
    Favourite to replace Honda is now BMW who have an engine ready and
    running (its already done two GP distances on the bench) and who are
    providing the engine for the McLaren F1 road car.
    
    The BMW engine story is also carried in Autosport.
    
    Likely pairings for '93 -
    
    Sauber	Wendlinger/Frentzen
    Benetton	Schumacher/ (Brundle/Unser/Patrese/Andretti)
    Williams	Mansell/Prost
    
    who knows what else - but Andretti must also be a possible at Lola,
    McLaren, Ferrari and Lotus.
    
    Paul

 Hi guys,

 I cant for the life of me believe that Mansell will stay at Williams 
if Prost also joins the team. I didn't think that mansell and Prost 
got on together.
Also, this is probably old news and or totally wrong but I read in 
some rag recently that:

Honda pull out of F1 and concentrate on Indy 500
Peugeot come into F1 [ yes i know it sounds daft but didn't they 
recently do well in Le Mans ? ]
Mercedes start into F1.
I agree with an earlier note, if Senna thinks that going to Ferrari is 
going to get him a greater chance of getting back the chamionship then 
Senna is not the clever boy I have always taken him for.

Rgds     Ron

    
    
    The only reason I can see that Nige might stay if Prost comes to
    Williams, is that he'd be No.1 and Prost No.2 - which he might 
    like the sound of. He'd then leave as soon as Prost starting
    beating him, on the grounds that Prost was getting better service
    from the team.

    Re: 1830.1
       
    >>almost every top driver visited the team and nothing happened...
    
    This man has a short memory. In 1990 Alain Prost joined the Scuderia
    and came very close to winning the championship. If Senna hadn't
    deliberately booted him into the sand trap on the first corner at
    Suzuka, who knows what would have happened?
    
    Ed.

<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>

 Edition : 2621               Friday 17-Jul-1992            Circulation :  7881 

VNS UK SPORTS REPORT:                             [Ken Merrick, VNS Sports Desk]
=====================                             [Valbonne, France            ]

::: MOTOR SPORT

    Karl Wendlinger will drive for Sauber F1 next season. The team are
    expecting to unveil their car in August.

--------------

So, does Schumacher go with him and leave the Benetton seat open for Al Jr.?

Dave

    
    Schumacher is not expected to leave Benneton.
    
    (Would you!!?!?!?!?! :^)).
    
    Mark

                  <<< Note 1830.5�              <<< Note 1830.5 by EUSEBE::STURT "Totally wired" >>>
                         -< A case of amnesia perhaps >-

    Re: 1830.5
                                         
    It is not amnesia. It just the fact that Ferrari doesn't win a
    championship with or without top drivers for more than a decade... 
    Coming very close to win, is not wining. 
                                         
    RUI

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
================================================================================
Note 1557.1241               Formula 1: 1992 Season                 1241 of 1241
IOSG::FREER "Three spellings short of a dictionary?" 13 lines  20-JUL-1992 08:07
                           -< Readall abooooowt it! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Something else that Maren have lost!
    
    
    	
    Honda for 1993!
    
    They announced over the weekend that they will pull out of F1 at the
    end of the year.
    
    What now for Mclaren? .... BMW, Peugeot, Audi??
    
    S 

    Are you sure about this? I don't think there has been any official word
    from Honda; just some rumours in the Japanese press. Big Ron has also
    denied the news.
    
    As far as Peugeot are concerned, Jean Todt gave some similarly
    non-commital blurb to the press over the weekend. He - like everyone
    else - seems to waiting to see what everyone else does before doing
    anything himself...
    
    Ed.

    .10�    Are you sure about this? I don't think there has been any official word
    .10�    from Honda; just some rumours in the Japanese press. Big Ron has also
    
    Yes, Honda officially replied to the Japanese press (Asahi Shinbum ?)
    that indeed because of recession both in Japan and worldwide the
    company was thinking of retiring of F1 at the end of next season. They
    said a press report will be issued in September when the final decision
    is made.

Well, Honda certainly has nothing to be ashamed of from their time in F1. Their 
accomplishments are awsome and will long be remembered in F1 history. As for 
McLaren, well, they've seen difficult times before. This is the first time that 
Ron Dennins will have to face a major rebuild. (I take the move from TAG engines 
to Honda as a pure offensive move.) I could see a hook up between McLaren and BMW 
or Pugeot, the latter especially if Prost is brought back in.

Senna to Ferrari is not as bad as it seems. I believe that Ferrari are showing 
real signs of resurgance - not in the results yet, but in the organizational 
things they must do to become a competitive team again. None of these teams can 
turn around in a short time. Look at Williams. They are enjoying the results of 
years of very hard work and heavy R&D. They were hardly a competitive team in 88, 
89 or 90 when McLaren were unchallenged. Ferrari, with Luca Montezemolo and Niki 
Lauda, looked poised to rebuild. The rumor that Barnard will be back would be 
welcomed by any Ferrari fan. He, like Prost, fell afoul of the politics. His 
designs were fine. To continue the rebuild, Ferrari needs an outstanding driver 
who is a complete driver - intelligent, persistent, and a good tester. Sounds like 
a Prost or Senna to me. Senna would be a tremendous asset. Some of what he says 
for the media is posturing. He's no fool. If he and Barnard go to Ferrari we may 
well see the team in resurgance in 93 - and certainly in 94. I for one would love 
to see them come back.

Honda have now denied they have plans to leave F1. They will meet in September
to decide.

/Dave.

    
    In all the speculation of the new driver/team pairings, I'm surprised
    no one has yet mentioned the possibility of McNish at McLaren should
    Senna leave.  Isn't he their #1 test driver?  And didn't he also show
    well if F3 (or was it 3000 - never could get those two straight)?
    
    Comments as to feasibility?
    

    .14�    well if F3 (or was it 3000 - never could get those two straight)?
    
    It was in F3000 at Enna-Pergusa. Qualified on 2nd row if I remember
    well.

    
    I thought Mark Blundell is Mclaren's Numero Una test driver at the
    moment!
    
    Now that would be interesting ......
    
    Steve

    I should defer to Mr Saxby to answer this one but......
    
    
    McNish had a disasterous season last year in F3000 as he had the wrong
    chassis (Reynard I think). This year he struggled to get sponsorship as
    Marlboro pulled most of the plug and then succumbed to a virus. He was
    fit again for Enna and qualified strongly and raced well for a lap
    until he got barged off and then collected another car  pulling back
    onto the track.
    
    I think that he is still ratained by McLaren but Blundell is definately
    No1. With drivers like Blundell, Warwick, Zanardi, Andretti, Unser
    Prost etc sitting in the wings, plus well funded F3000 guys like
    Barrichello McNish needs to do something special in the rest of the
    season to come close to a drive next year. A possible move would be to
    WSPC plus a full time testing contract, otherwise it may be that Japan
    beckons.
    
    Paul

    
    	How about Damon Hill to Williams to partner Mansell.
    
    	Isn't Damon their test driver?
    
    	Now that would be a surprise!!
    
    		Tony

    .17�    McNish had a disasterous season last year in F3000 as he had the wrong
    .17�    chassis (Reynard I think). This year he struggled to get sponsorship as
    
    Lola chassis. Reynards are doing fine (they won last year's championship,
    lead the current one) 

    
    Ok, I'll bite.
    
    The Man with the cold really has had it tough the last couple of years.
    
    His success in F3 was, to my eyes, due more to Malboro backing than his
    (admittedly greater than many) talent. However a mixture of the wrong
    decisions and a seeming lack of aggression in F3000 has seen him
    disappear from sight under a welter of Italians! Unlike Damon Hill,
    Alan McNish has never (or at least not for a long time) shown any
    determination to get himself noticed. I think Japan probably does
    beckon, but maybe it's too late even for that?
    
    I believe Jonathon Palmer is still employed by McLaren as a test driver
    too. Now there's a waste of a great talent...
    
    Mark

    ...If it comes to pairing with no politics, maybe Mansell would choose
       Brundle, though I dont see much chance of his opinion being valued
       by FW. I guess Renault may be too rattled ...

    .21�       by FW. I guess Renault may be too rattled ...
    
    When you say Renault don't forget to add Elf. I think that Renault
    without Elf would be like Ferrari or Honda.

Doesn't the new rule banning exotic fuels come into effect next
season?  If so, that eliminates the Elf factor.  But it also eliminates
McLaren's Shell factor, so it likely won't change the status quo
much.

--PSW

    .23�Doesn't the new rule banning exotic fuels come into effect next
    .23�season?  If so, that eliminates the Elf factor.  But it also eliminates
    
    No, it has been rejected. The rule is that the FISA council must get
    unanimous votes. In the case of F1 petrol everyone vote for it except
    .... Williams

    - Renault and Elf have prolonged their contract with Williams to cover
      the 1994 season
    
    - Ferrari (Luca di Montezemolo) is working hard:
    
    	- 27M$ offered to Ayrton Senna (that's Mansell+Prost salaries)
        - John Barnard is offered the job of overall technical manager
          with full capacity to restart a UK-based GTO-like operation
        - Postlethwaite will be responsible for manufacturing the F1 cars
          at Fiorano
    
    - Honda's doubts about their future in F1 might indicate that their
      champion (Senna) might well accept Ferrari's offer. The only way for
      Honda to continue is to work with Senna or with ... Prost. Tha's what
      Mr Kawamoto was saying a few days ago.
    
    - John Barnard seems to be the key to the problem. He and Prost are
      friends and have almost set-up a F1 team together recently. Will JB go
      with Senna at Ferrari ? or with Prost (wherever he goes ...)

    
    RE: .25
    
    If one accepts as a forgone conclusion that Barnard and Prost will
    wind up on the same team then that would suggest it wouldn't be
    Williams, Patrick Head is doing just fine without Barnard.
    
    Honda-McLaren-Dennis-Barnard-Prost?
    BMW-McLaren-Dennis-Barnard-Prost?
    
    Whichever the engine make can these three egos coexist on a team where
    so much acrimony was felt amongst them before?
    
    - Nate

Article 20221 of rec.autos.sport:
Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!caen!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!basser.cs.su.oz.au!cluster!swift!suite.sw.oz.au!pod
From: [email protected] (Paul O'Donnell)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: F1/CART rumours
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 07:20:08 GMT
Sender: [email protected] (Usenet)
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Lines: 32

I just picked up the latest Auto Action (Local racing rag) which
contains the following rumours, some new, some old.

Senna used the Ferrari motorhome as his own during Hockenheim
testing and the rumoured announcement is expected at the German
GP.  (BTW the rumoured amount is US$25M)

Barnard gets a GTO style research centre in England from Ferrari.

Williams to announce signing Mansell and Prost at the German G.P.

Honda to go CART racing with Rahal (who is a big Honda dealer)

Mclaren pursuing Prost (yeah I know, I just said Williams, these
are _rumours_)

Mclaren to get a shiny new 3.5l engine from BMW which is said to
be near track test readiness (how long from test track to racing?)

Ron Dennis has been waving money at Schumacher.

Walkinshaw has been talking to Little Al, who had a seat fitting
with Benetton the day after the British G.P.  This would make
Ford in Detroit happy.

Perhaps we should keep track of these and give each rag a Rumour
Reliability Index which we could put in the (rumoured) FAQ.
-- 
[email protected]                    | Gaffer tape is like the force.
Softway Pty Ltd                         | It has a light side and a dark
Phone:   +61 2 698-2322                 | side and it binds the universe
Fax:     +61 2 699-9174                 | together.

    Same note as the 1557 conf. Any news broken this morning? The suspense
    is getting to my nether regions.
    
    		George Frost

�Barnard gets a GTO style research centre in England from Ferrari.
    
    'GTO' as in Guildford Technical Office ?
    
    Did Ferrari actually close down the site that they had (in Shalford) ?
    I know they moved most, if not all, work back out of the U.K.
    
    I'd like to know if they are to re-use the previous 'GTO' site, if
    anyone gets to hear/read these sort of rumours...
    
    J.R.

    .29�    Did Ferrari actually close down the site that they had (in Shalford) ?
    .29�    I know they moved most, if not all, work back out of the U.K.
    
    I thought the GTO site and equipment had been sold to McLaren.

    It was indeed sold to McLaren earlier this year.
    regards,
    JP

�    It was indeed sold to McLaren earlier this year.
    
    Thanks for comments.
    
    J.R.

    If Mclaren bought it what happened to all the DEC equipment in there,
    i did some installation work there a few times but i know nobody
    went back to do any deinstalls for them, and i'm sure Mclaren wouldn't
    have wanted it (would they ?).
    
    Nick.

    My prediction....
    
    I think it's clear Elf and Renault want Prost for FY93, and Frank
    either want's it or has to accept it.
    
    So Prost to Williams.......
    
    Mansell will get very upset (he's already said he's under contract not
    to discuss it!), and will either stay or go.
    
    My prediction.......
    
    Prost won't make the grade. Either team warfare or his lay-off will
    take the edge off his former skills and Frank will not get the results
    he should.
    
    JK

    Hot off the press:
    
    Young Frentzen (spelling?) to join Sauber next year according to
    today's L'Equipe. Frentzen is the third man in the
    Spoonface/Wendlinger/Mr X Mercedes WCR team. Does this mean that
    Merde SS are on their way into F1 with Sauber? Your guess is as bad as
    mine.
    
    Salut,
    Ed.
    

re.33:

Mclaren also used DEC equipment at one time, don't know if they still do.

/Dave.

    
    
    re .36
    
    Mclaren probably don't use DEC equipment anymore which is why
    they haven't had a sniff so far this year.
    
    JN.

re.37:

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

/Dave.

    Both Benetton drivers are confirmed.
    
    But, we all know what a written contract is worth these days ...

    I would tend to think Patrick that Benneton has it right for the
    moment. That was why I excluded them earlier from my musical chairs.
    
    I still tend to think that its Prost for Williams, notwithstanding all
    the bluff and double bluff over the network at the weekend.
    
    Senna for Ferrari with Alesi seems to me to be highly unlikely, but a
    Senna Patrese combination would work out very well.
    Only thing is, I don't think that Ferrari will be too happy to take him
    on UNLESS specifically asked for by Senna...and that seems unlikely.
    Berger back at Ferrari - for me also unlikely.
    
    So, as I said before, what to do with Mansell?
    
    			George Frost
    
    	

    
    George,
    
    Why do you doubt that Ferrari would want Patrese? They've expressed a
    lot of interest in him in the past and he would seem an ideal team-mate
    to the fast, but inexperienced Alesi.
    
    Mark

    Barnard won't make Ferrari win the title in 1993. 
    
    Postlethwaite's car will appear. Will the new engine be ready (with
    plenty of bhp, Nm) ? will the transverse gearbox work reliably ? will
    the reactive suspension ... etc etc
    
    If I were Senna, I would take a sabbatical (or sign for Williams !).

A suggestion for Formula Williams.

Williams should run three cars next season - one each for the three egos.

- Each driver would bring his own sponsorship (Camel for Mansell, Marlboro for
  Senna etc). This would make it more interesting for the spectator as the
  blue and yellow, dayglo and white or blue, white and red car might be
  leading.
- Any improvements to the car would have to be made available to all 3 drivers
  at the same time.
- Each driver would have chief mechanic; however the other crew members would
  rotate through the 3 cars to avoid accusations of favouritism.

Steve

    

    I think you're right, George. Mansells inability to work with either
    Senna or Prost could cost him any chance of a decent drive for next
    year. Perhaps he'll retire. Prost is said to have signed a "letter
    of intent" with Williams and most of the pundits have pencilled
    in Sennas name at Ferrari. 
    
    That would leave Mansell at McLaren, but the suggestion seems to be 
    that Ron D. wouldn't want him.
    I'd thought about the Camel connection and wondered about him going
    to Benetton, but I don't reckon he'd be Tom W's cup of tea either
    and if they've re-signed Schumaker and Brundle already, that would
    indicate Toms mind is made up. Anyway, they might not even be able 
    to afford Mansell.
    
    Maybe he'll swallow his pride and work with Prost.
    
    If Barnard has gone to Ferrari who will help McLaren back to their 
    former glory? 

    Richard.

    
    re: -.1
    
 >>>   If Barnard has gone to Ferrari who will help McLaren back to their 
 >>>   former glory? 

    Well, the McLaren "F1" supercar is nearly ready to go into production.
    Perhaps Gordon Murray has time on his hands again?
    
    - Nate

    I think that possibly McLaren are looking to regroup over the next
    couple of years, especially if they loose Honda.  Not to make a run at
    any titles untill 95.  If Senna goes to Ferrari we may see some points
    next year and maybe even a win or to in the second half of 93 but not
    much more.  
    
    As for Mansell did anyone think that he may switch seats with a Yank.
    ie: Prost to Williams, Senna to Ferrari, Mansel to replace Michael or
    little Al over in the CART series and one of them to fill the seat, or
    wait a minute, how about both of them as team mates while the new
    engine is being sorted out.  Berger would go to Williams and help Prost
    win a championship (and himself have his best year ever).  Patrese would 
    then go and be Senna's little helper.
    
    BTW any official news out of Ferrari today?
    
    regards,
    JP            

     Just a thought, 
    
    	With the world sportscar championship in taters, There are a few
    designers there with known past experiance in F1. For example toyota
    currently have Tony Southgate, he is not new to F1 , remember the UOP
    shodow, and the BRM P160. If sportscar finally goes belly up there
    could be a few designers looking for new homes.
    
    Garry

    .45�    Well, the McLaren "F1" supercar is nearly ready to go into production.
    
    The 1st protos (with engine and everything) should go into testing. 1st
    production cars are expected late 1993. But you're right: the design
    work is over.

RE: .46

McLaren signed Tony Southgate up five weeks ago - looks like you're right on
the money!

Steve

    Ferrari *have* confirmed Barnard's appointment on a 5 year contract. He
    will oversee a design and research facility in the UK while Harvey
    Postlewaite runs the manufacturing facility in Maranello.
    
    Watch this space for Senna.
    
    Paul

RE: suggestion for a 3-car Williams team

Are F1 teams allowed to run more than two cars per race these days?

--PSW

    Konrad has announced that he will be moving from the WSCC towards F1
    with technical assistance from various Austrian research institutes. If
    possible the Konrad F1 team will debut in 1993.
    
    Following the return of John Barnard to Scuderia Ferrari, George Ryton
    left Team Tyrrell to work with JB. Harvey Postlethwaite will most
    certainly quit and return to Tyrrell. Luca di Montezemolo is trying to
    recuperate the Ferrari guys who left during the Fiorio times. Mauricio
    Nardo is one of them.

    
    I was interested to read in the "JB" announcement that he had
    been working for Benetton - perhaps that explains their good form!
    
    

    Mark,
    
    	to reply to yours from a while back. I think Ferrari like Alesi.
    They also would like ultimately an Italian driver who would win not
    just be a second string as at the moment with Capelli.
    
    It is certain that to bring in Patrese with Senna would relegate
    Patrese to the 'second driver' and give him no chance for a win.
    
    The other thing is that I do not think that Senna is particularly fond
    of Patrese. 
    The dilemma is that it is uncertain what the Senna/Alesi relationship
    would be particularly with the 'ego busting' demotion to second driver
    that Alesi would suffer.
    
    One thing is for sure....watch '93 and particularly '94 for a
    resurgence of the reds.
    
    		George Frost
                           

    .54�    The dilemma is that it is uncertain what the Senna/Alesi relationship
    .54�    would be particularly with the 'ego busting' demotion to second driver
    .54�    that Alesi would suffer.
    
    In his bimonthly newsletter in AutoHebdo Jean Al�si says he'd welcome 3
    times worldchampion as #1. He also said that he was equally happy with
    other 3 times world champion.
    
    Now, the reality may be slightly different. I think you may be right
    Gearge.

    .50�   Ferrari *have* confirmed Barnard's appointment on a 5 year contract. He
    
    Scuderia Ferrari is split into 3 divisions:
    
    - R&D, based in the UK, managed by John Barnard
    - Engine development, Fiorano, managed by Claudio Lombardi
    - Race cars mfg, Maranello, (Harvey Postlethwaite)
    
    Actually the announcement I've seen did not have a name for the latter.  

    Excellent news. That really puts Ferrari back where it belongs.
    
    Next it's 'come on the horses' (sic)
    
    		George Frost

    
    All the doubts over whether Alesi could accept Senna or Prost seem to
    point towards a theory that either would blow Alesi away (correct me if
    I'm wrong). However, these theories seem (to me) baseless. Alesi has
    been performing miracles in his dog of a Ferrari this year and shown
    very few of the tantrums and mistakes that have dogged his past. 
    
    Alesi, IMO, is the greatest up-and-coming driver (Ahead, I think, even 
    of Schumacher. He is good, but he also has a damned good car!) and I 
    wouldn't be suprised to see Prost or Senna being seriously embarassed
    by Alesi.
    
    Of course, that would cause great discord in the team! :^)
    
    Mark

    
    There's all this talk of driver swapping..
    
    Senna to Ferrari (very probable)
    
    Prost to join Mansell (again strong possibility, cant see Mansell
                                          leaving as he's got nowhere to go)
    
    So who will be driving for Mclaren... Patrese ?(he's the only one left)
    
    Nick.
    
    

    No Mark, it is not Alesi's talent in question.
    
    	 I agree with you opinion of Alesi - he is VERY good and will show
    up very well.
    My opinion is that he knows that he is good, he knows that the others
    know....etc and as a consequence will not accept second slot too
    happily.
    
    		George Frost
    

    re .59
    
    How about Alesi at McLaren?
    
    		George Frost

    Memories ...
    
    2 years ago Al�si had a written/signed contract with ... Williams. Then
    he and lots of people (Ken Tyrrell, McCormack, Ferrari, lawyers, ...)
    worked hard and spent millions to break the contract. 
    
    For 2 years Al�si has been suffering with inferior cars.
    
    I think Jean must have terrible feelings when he looks back at this
    terrible mistake (especially when he sees the same guy(s) on the
    winner's podium at every race).
    
    Maybe it's time for him to make the right move, before he becomes an
    old 'future potential winner'.

RE: -.1

Patrick, what is the right decision for him?!

Steve

    What if Ferrari is indeed at the point of turning around and producing
    a winning car.  Wouldn't Alesi then kick himself for leaving too soon.
    I think he will stay around for at least another year, unless he is
    offered a drive at Williams.  That would be too hard to turn down,
    because I think he would outdrive Mansell or Prost for the
    championship.
    regards,
    JP
    PS I still see the possibilty of transplanting one of the Americans
    over to McLaren.

    The petrol rule is one key factor. If they vote (in Oct) for FISA
    petrol (equal treatment) then Renault (and Williams) won't be as
    dominant as they are this year. Ferrari and Honda will close the gap.
    
    The other key factor is tyres width. Teams and Goodyear don't want
    the 15" limit. Goodyear is offering to go to 16.5" instead. In any case
    the big thirsty engines will be at a disadvantage. This remains to be
    fully studied but the Benetton with its small V8 might be a winner.

    Jean Alesi cannot expect to win much in '93 with Ferrari....towards the
    end of the season perhaps, but not before.
    
    A winning entry to the podium is a move to Williams or McLaren.
    
    			Geor
    ge Frost

    Seen in this week's AutoHebdo:
    
    Picture of the new Ford V12. What a small compact V12 ! It's only 5cm
    longer than the V8 ! It's got all electronic gadgets (electronic
    throttle, anti-skid, ...). It will now go to Cosworth Engineering for a
    full shakeout testing period. They plan to have it mounted into a
    Benetton chassis in Sept/Oct.

RE: .65

Banning the exotic fuels doesn't necessarily mean that McLaren and
Ferrari will be able to close the gap on Williams.  Remember that Shell
and Agip supply them with exotic brews as well.  They just haven't been
quite as successful as Elf.  A falling tide lowers all boats.

--PSW  

    
    I guess FISA has unilaterally decided to go with 15" wheels next
    season.  Apparently Goodyear is unimpressed and says that they may
    supply only 4 teams with tires?  Correct?  So who is supposed to take
    up the slack...?   :^)   Any more info on the tire situation for '93?
    
    Why does FISA insist on treating it's loyal, and only, tire supplier
    so shabbily?
    
    - Nate (bursting with questions)

FISA's action to reduce tyre widths is to increase the competitiveness
of the racing.  It's to benefit the teams and fans.  Goodyear's
objection is that they risk getting bad PR if drivers and teams blame the
poorer handling from the width reduction on the tyres.  Well, that's too
bad.  FISA has to look at the sometimes conflicting interests of all
participants in the sport, not just at what's good for Goodyear.

--PSW

>of the racing.  It's to benefit the teams and fans.  Goodyear's
>objection is that they risk getting bad PR if drivers and teams blame the
>poorer handling from the width reduction on the tyres.  Well, that's too
>bad.
    
    Goodyear claim it's deeper than that.  They say that by going to 15"
    will mean the rubber will have to be very hard indeed as the tyres would
    otherwise be prone to blistering.  You or me would think that going
    from 18" to 15" would mean making the tyres 15% harder.  Goodyear say
    not, it'll need to be twice as hard to enable the tyres to survive even
    a few laps.
    
    Sounds possible to me.  I get the impression the decision was taken in
    ignorance of tyre technology.  Maybe the racing would be very
    interesting, maybe it would be lethal.

    
    RE: -.2
    
    PSW, I understand something needs to be done for the betterment of the
    "sport".  There are several technical rule changes being undertaken to
    accomplish the goal of making F1 more competitive, and hence more
    marketable (profitable).  That Goodyear may receive some bad PR is, I
    think, the least of their worries.
    
    Clive has it right I believe.  The technical issues around reducing
    tire dimensions and still maintaining a safe and durable tire are not
    trivial.  Goodyear will have to invest considerably in capital and R+D
    to accomplish the goal.  This places a considerable burden on them.
    Goodyear sought to compromise on 16.5" wheels but FISA in it's usual
    fashion is totally unwilling to compromise.  Well their series would
    be da*^ed compromised if Goodyear decided it was no longer economic, or
    in it's interests, to supply tires.  
    
    Michelin and Pirelli come and go as suits their whims.  Goodyear has
    been loyal to F1 and the FISA treats them with the same dose of
    contempt they dish out to fans, organizers etc.  FISA's looking for a
    cheap, quick fix to their problems and in so doing has forced the pain
    and expense on a valuable ally.
    
    - Nate

    re: .72 and few others.

    Tyre/Tire widths...

    Why haven't Goodyear etc. told FISA "See figure 1"?

    Well, I think it is the same reason that Honda,Renault, Canon all spend
    loads each year. They all depend on F1 for promotion of their respective
    products. It's all a game of poker.

    Lola have announced that they are re-entering F1 as chassis supplier to
    Scuderia Italia next season.
    
    This surprised me as I thought that they were coming in as a factory
    team, probably with Mike Andretti!
    
    Oh well, maybe they'll still have Andretti as they'll still have
    Ferrari engines :-)
    
    Paul

This just came in off the net news a few minutes ago.

Interesting......

Reply-To: [email protected]
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes:
|> 
|> Hi Racers
|> 
|> Just got off the phone with my contact at Williams F1 and i will try to
|> give you the basis of our conversation.
|> 
|> Alan,   Is Prost efinatly driving next year
|> Contact,  Officially no-one has signed anything
|> Alan, What about mansell
|> Contact, No-one has signed
|> Alan, Cmon tell me summat
|> Contact, What am i supposed to say
|> Alan, Prost reckons he has signed, has he
|> Contact, mmmmmmmmmmm
|> Alan, What about mansell
|> Contact, Not signed anything
|> 
|> 
|> And so the conversation went, the mmmmmmm was an up and down tone 
|> intimating a yes. Basically as i said two months ago Prost will
|> be driving a williams next year but who with is the stumbling block.
|> What i was told is that Frank is calling a Press conferance shortly
|> (approx 1 week) to announce both drivers at once. Also time limits
|> apparantly have been put on "people" to sign or not. Ayrton Senna
|> got a "probably not" answer about driving.
|> 
|> Well there you have it as of 10 mins ago from a high ranking person
|> in Williams.
|> 
|> More when i know.
|> 
|> Alan

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�|> Well there you have it as of 10 mins ago from a high ranking person
�|> in Williams.
�|> 
    
    That's what I call spreading gossip !!!   :-)
    
    J.R.

.76>>  That's what I call spreading gossip !!!   :-)
    
    Yes,
    
    	but what else can you do with gossip ? :-)
    
    Terry

	There was a tribute to Nigel Mansell on the BBC last night and part
of it was recorded earlier in the day, 24 hours after he became World
Champion. When asked to recall his earlier years he said that his time at
Ferrari was ok until the arrival of a "disruptive influence to the team".
He went on to say that he did not want to mention any names because he
"might have to drive with him next year"... Not a very good way to build
team spirit...

	The program was disappointing as it reviewed the previous British
World Champions and I would have thought that the BBC would have had some
better footage of the more recent drivers, such as Hill, Clark, Surtees,
etc.

Mansell is due to meet Williams tomorrow to thrash out the deal for next 
year.

Dave.

    Benneton look like having Schumacher and Michael Andretti next year, so
    has anyone any ideas what will happen to Brundle ? How about Ferrari as
    number two to Alesi ?
    
    Dave
    

RE: -.1

Niki Lauda said that he would be making the driver decision over the next two
weeks. What he wants primarily is a driver who is prepared to test and test and
test and....  He says that Barnard's design will be up to standard - they need
a hard worker to provide the feedback.

He didn't rule out Berger - admitting that they were talking. However he said
that his Austrian nationality would have no bearing on his final decision.

Steve

    News re Mansell on Reuters is that he's saying that if he doesn't drive
    for Williams next year he'll retire, as he's comfortable with the setup
    there and doesn't want to have to go to a new team with different
    working practices.

    I fail to understand Mansell's blithering on about a disruptive
    influence at Ferrari. Prost damned near won the championship for
    Ferrari for the first time in ages. Mansell never came anywhere near
    that. If I were a team manager, I would want as many of Mansell's 
    "disruptive influences" in my team as possible.
    
    Paving the way to peace and harmony at Williams-Renualt for 93...
    
    Salut,
    Ed
      

    Wasnt that the season when it was plainly obvious that Mansell was
    getting the second and vastly inferiour car.
    
    If I remember rightly, mansell had numerous mechanical failures which
    werent caused by his driving....whereas Prost didnt have one !!
    
    Barry
    

    It isn't always the case of inferior cars... I believe that certain
    driving traits will bring out the best/worst of cars, both consumer and
    racing types.  Having owned any number of Renault's here in the US
    where they are viewed as a POS, I have found them to be quite a
    reliable and well built car.  I am convinced that they require regular 
    maintanence and need to be driven hard(hey! that red is there for a
    reason).   F1 machines do have the same individual characteristics....
    Recall how Rosberg was always breaking down in a Mclaren(sp?).
    
    -Dale
    

Mansell's driving style tends to push the limit of the equipment.  The '88
and '89 Ferraris were somewhat fragile cars.  Prost recognized this and
drove conservatively, according to the principle "to finish first, you must
first finish".  Mansell drove all-or-nothing, and with those cars it was
more often than not, nothing.  Our Nige, for all his skill, is something of a
whinger, and so he naturally interpreted this phenomenon as inferior
eqipment.  After a while, this may have been a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Suppose you're a Ferrari mechanic and you have two drivers, one of whom
speaks your language, is interested in being intimately involved in testing
and set-up, and another driver who tries to do the minimum amount of testing
he can get away with and who is always blaming the equipment whenever something
goes wrong.  Which driver are you going to do your best for?

Mansell's success this year is partly due to Patrick Head building a car that 
even Nigel Mansell can't break.

--PSW

Re. -1

I whole heartedly agree with your comments.  What I find amazing is the degree to
which Mansell has distorted this simple reality to accusing Prost of being a
"disruptive influence", etc.  For this reason, I can see why it is becoming so
difficult for other teams to accept Mansell as their #1 driver.

Note that I am surprised at the degree to which Senna has matured away from such
positions.  This guy is taking on almost Prost-like dimensions - just like Prost
adopted Lauda-like characteristics as he was maturing.

				-- Carlos.

P.S.	Of course, like George and Ed, I am an acknowledged supporter of GREAT
	drivers, the foremost of the active being Alain Prost.

        <<< Note 1830.84 by FORTY2::HOWARD "BIG FUN rolled into one" >>>
                               -< If I remember rightly >-
    
    >>    Wasnt that the season when it was plainly obvious that Mansell was
    >>    getting the second and vastly inferiour car.
    
   >>     If I remember rightly, mansell had numerous mechanical failures
   >> which
   >>     werent caused by his driving....whereas Prost didnt have one !!
    
    
    Very easy to imply, very difficult to prove. It was also the season
    when Mansell nearly drove team mate Prost into the wall at Estoril when
    he was gunning for the championship.
    
    Even if your huge assumption is correct, have you ever thought why
    Prost might have benefitted from better material and service. I think
    the previous notes give some valid reasons.
    
    Salut,
    Ed.

    re. -1
    
    Maybe Mansell says what he thinks, rather than saying one thing and
    doing another.  I've a feeling he's being crucified for being honest.  I
    don't know whether what Hunt said is true - that Prost says publicly,
    he'll drive with Senna but, it is actually doing all sorts of things 
    to ensure he doesn't.
    
    I believe we need to get real about all this.  We are talking about
    people trying to ensure they get the best multi-million dollar deal
    they can.  Just think about the politics in Digital over relatively
    trivial matters, let alone the important ones. 

� P.S.	Of course, like George and Ed, I am an acknowledged supporter of GREAT
�	drivers, the foremost of the active being Alain Prost.
    
    Active? Funny, I thought he'd been sitting the season out in a French
    TV commentators box. 
    
    James Hunt for Williams in 1993!!!!!
    
    Mark

    That one had to get you too Mark....and it wasn't even my note.
    
    Prost has been a VERY busy boy this season just keeping his hand in 
    and testing for others.
    
    Care for a friendly and gentlemanly exchange of opinions on the outcome
    of the Mansell/Prost battle looming for '93?
    
    Curiously I am uncertain as to the outcome. The superiority of the
    Williams on the track coupled with its reliability plays into the hands
    of Mansell with his 'go for it at all costs' style.
    
    Prost's skills are based on his very good driving techniques and his
    experience of the 'state of the art' of F1 racing technology. Now if
    the Williams is so far advanced.......and it only needs a racer...
    
    Somehow I feel that the competition will close the gap next season and
    force Williams further toward their limits which will require a
    driver...
    
    		George Frost

    
    Everyone's saying that Prost will be able to manipulate the team to his
    benefit, but I can't see that. Williams is a British team and Mansell
    has been the catalyst in most of their major success. Frank may play
    hardball over contracts, but I think Williams will not be the team it
    is without Mansell.
    
    I also agree with George (well there had to be a first time! :^)) about
    the relative strengths of Mansell and Prost. I can't EVER see Prost
    beating Mansell in a straight fight (maybe that's not quite what George
    meant, but that's the bottom line as I see it), so if Williams could
    provide Mansell and Prost with the reliability they've had this year, I
    think Mansell would usually come out ahead of Prost.
    
    Who's Prost been testing for? I recall that brief spell for Ligier, but
    there's a big difference between a few laps here and there and fighting 
    for the championship. Will Prost REALLY have the fire to want to win?
    
    However, I can't believe that things will be as easy for Williams next
    season as they are this (Indeed, I hope no-one had that kind of
    advantage) and picking up seconds and thirds all season is, indeed, one
    of Prost's great strengths.
    
    Mark

    The prospects of a Mansell-Prost battle in Williams in 1993 is
    certainly an interesting one, not unlike the 1987 situation at Williams
    where Piquet and Mansell dominated the season. That year Mansell won
    more races but it was Piquet who took the championship. I would predict
    that a similar situation would result next season with Prost taking
    the championship but Mansell grabbing the headlines.
    
    Prost is much more the thinking man's driver whereas Mansell is, as
    mentioned, an all or nothing driver. The season next year should be
    much closer, although Williams will probably have the edge. But in
    order to do so they are likely to compromise some of their consistency.
    This I think will give the harder driver more problems, ie Mansell.
    
    This, of course assumes that it will be a Mansell-Prost line-up at
    Williams next season. Reports on BBC Radio last night suggested that
    Mansell was more likely to retire rather than take the pay cut Williams
    appear to want to force on him.
    
    Dave.
    

    Mark,
    
       (I) am certainly not saying that Prost will manipulate the team, and 
    I think it wrong to accuse Prost of manipulation.
    	
    	The 'straight fight' as you put it begins at the beginning of the
    season, off the course, prior to each race etc.....I think that we both
    agree on that. There will never be a 'straight fight' between Mansell
    and Prost.
    (The last time anything near it happened was the start of season '89. Prost
    walked it from Mansell although Mansell had already had one season with 
    Ferrari (with Berger). But all of this is an aside).
    
    Williams will do their damndest to not favour either driver but the
    rivalry between the teams of mechanics will be bound to surface as will
    the favouritism at a personal level.
    
    Frank Williams said on the last TV interview that I saw, that Mansell
    is a very difficult character to deal with in the pits. However 
    Frank Williams appreciated the Mansell trait of driving to win.
    That bears out the general opinion of Mansell as seen by the mechanics
    looking after his car wherever he has been.
    
    Prost is a different kettle of fish in that the mechanics appreciate
    him very much but he has problems with tha management.
    
    The last in my opinion will decide the best of the two for next
    season - who gets along with the grunt staff (mechanics, support bods
    etc.) and there I think Prost will win.
    
    Of course Prost might get fired at the end of the season but he will
    have made his point if he wins the Championship.
    
    		George Frost
    
                                                        

Allright guys, gimme a break ...
I apologize for the usage of the word "active".  You knew what I meant :>)

			-- Carlos.

    >> Mansell was more likely to retire rather than take the pay cut Williams
    >> appear to want to force on him.

What "pay cut"?  My understanding is that Mansell is being offered at least as
much as he is making this year but not that which he is demanding ($23M).  I
think that the BEST driver currently racing is Senna (even though I do not like
him too much), and even he is not making such crazy demands.  Why does
Mansell think that he deserves this amount of money?  Because of the only 
record he owns (most wins by a driver in a season)?  I'll give that record to
Williams/Renault/Elf.

Personally, I am amazed at the fan support that Mansell gets (especially from
this group which should be much more knowledgeable). IMHO, I like Mansell's
entertaining all or nothing drives occasionally; I do not think that he is 
a GREAT or GOOD driver; I think that he is a FAST driver - but then so is
Alesi, Shumacher and a bunch of others.  Maybe he is the FASTEST?  That is
difficult to judge because we then have to perform driver-car differentiation.
So, where does that leave us?  Abandon this Mansell-worship crap and root for
some meaningful change in the prima donna antics by the top drivers.

A Ferrari spokesman is reported (good old CEEFAX) as saying that Ayrton
Senna has turned down a Ferrai drive for 1993.

He (Senna) wants to win the championship, and do to that he needs a
competitive car, which the current Ferrari is not, adds the report.

So, is he still in the Williams frame, staying put at McLaren or going to
take a sabbatical?

His language at the moment -- wanting to win the championship -- is not
one of a man about to take a year off.

terry b

    Heard the same on the box last night (Sky News for what it is worth).
    
    
    			GLF

    
    This should probably be in the trivia topic but it has some relevance
    here.
    
    If Mansell were to retire in 93, who would drive car #1 assuming that
    number is always raced by the current world champion? And what
    numbers would McLaren race under next year? 
    
    The last time a World Champion drove for anyone else but McLaren was Prost
    at Ferrari. He was #1 and Mansell was #2. I'm pretty sure McLaren took
    over the Ferrari race numbers for that season, i.e. 27 and 28.
    
    
    POL.

	re .96, 

	I'm amazed at the amount of flak that Mansell gets and the amount
	of praise that Prost gets.

	Dave

Re: .-1

Well said,  it seems we just can't stand winners around here!

Why not be happy the guy won,  or perhaps next we will see topless photos of him
on holiday and character assasinations in the press ;-)

_Richard

    not so guys. A lots of the flak that Mansell gets is from around the
    world not just the UK.
    
    All goes i cycles anyway. Last year the flak was aimed at Prost. The
    year before at Senna  etc...
    Funny how as the drivers mature the flak decreases.
    Piquet, Prost now Senna etc. All were hotshot racers at one time in
    their careers. I recall both Senna and Prost swapping blows with rivals
    who they claim had pushed them off the circuit.
    
    			George Frost

    
    "The Times" also reports that Senna has turned down Ferrari for '93
    but they suggest that he might go there in '94. The main thrust of
    the article though is that Senna wants to drive only for Williams
    and that Frank W. has always wanted Senna to drive for him. Senna 
    is reputed to have said that if he can't drive for Williams he'll 
    take a sabatical.
    
    I think Frank should take Senna... then he'd only have to worry about
    TWRs' Michael and Martin...
    

    Any other hints at the makeup of the Williams team?
    
    Mansell + Prost, Mansell + Senna, Prost + Senna, or any other
    combination?
    From a team perspective Prost + Senna would appeal as the best
    combination, for fire and brimstone read Mansell + Senna, and for tears
    and hysterics read Mansell + Prost.
    
    I have a gut feeling however that all this chasing of Williams may not
    be the perfect solution for a driver in '93. 
    
    Significantly still no news of the Honda demise from F1.
    
    		George Frost

    Today's L'Equipe reports that, following Senna's decision not to sign
    with Ferrari, the Scuderia is now on the verge of signing a deal with
    Senna's current teamate Berger.
    
    It also reports that Big Ron has made an offer to Prost, just in case
    Senna decides to take a year off.
    
    George, when did Prost exchange blows with another driver? Your memory
    must be better than mine.
       
    Salut,
    Ed.

      
    I hear that Murrey Walker has been asked to drive a F1
    Williams next session, but is a bit miffed that Prince Harry will be the 
    number one driver in the Williams team next session, because of his 
    expertise on the Game Boy.
    
    Mansell did it, mainly because of the machine he was driving. His
    constant lack of driving ability at F1 level was clear for all to see
    as Senna enticed the brummie into making silly and ilogical mistakes 
    throughout the 92 season.
    
    Just about anyone in the top 10 drivers F1 pool, could be world champion in
    the Williams, a truly superb machine!
    
    When all is said and done, I am glad that Britian has a champion again,
    even if it is Nigel Mansell. Hopefully the younger, more suitable British 
    drivers will be fair better in the 1993 season.
    
    J.
     
    
       
    
    
    
     

>    Just about anyone in the top 10 drivers F1 pool, could be world champion in
>    the Williams, a truly superb machine!
    
    Agreed, almost.  Not sure about the top 10, at least it might have taken 
    those ranked 5 to 10 longer to become champion.
    
>    Mansell did it, mainly because of the machine he was driving. His
>    constant lack of driving ability at F1 level was clear for all to see
>    as Senna enticed the brummie into making silly and ilogical mistakes 
>    throughout the 92 season.
    
    A bit over the top don't you think?  Silly and illogical mistakes
    "throughout the 92 season" - not sure even George Frost would say
    throughout the season.  Mansell's driving record in F1 is better than 
    most.  The impression that he can barely drive is rather biased to say
    the least.

RE: .105

Ed,
	I'm sure that Jacques Lafitte would have liked to have exchanged blows
with Prost :-)  Seriously, I can't remember him hitting anyone either - he is
far more professional than that - he gets his own back through the press!

RE: -.1

	Don't dwell on Mansell's 8 1st places and 2 seconds, but instead 
remember that DNF in Canada. That was the TRUE Mansell surfacing - the rest of 
the season has been a minor aberration. :-) :-) :-) :-)

The Mirror Man

As I've watched these Notes for the last month, it's been curious to me that
one option has not even been considered ...

I F ...
Senna is posturing with Ferrari and ends up going there, where does that leave
McLaren ?

It would indeed be a precedent for Ron Dennis to settle for an unproven driver
as his #1!  Thus, I think Ron would campaign really hard i.e offer money, #1
seat etc. to Prost, if he loses Senna.  In which case Prost would have less
incentive to go into Williams as co #1 (or co #2) in a persona non grata role
i.e. getting the drive through sponsorship politics, rather than through Frank
Williams REALLY wanting him.

I've seen nothing in these Notes offering A N Y explanation of why Frank
Williams would want to upset the good thing that he presently has going with
Mansel.  What would be his motivation?  to get better?  Frank has been around
long enough to know that an acrimonious competition between 2 top drivers is
not likely to improve his present position.  Frank may have to give in to
Renault/Elf wishes, but that IS NOT the same thing as saying that Prost is what
FRANK wants ...

btw, at this time in his career I suspect that what Prost really wants is a
Niki Lauda-like position to retire into ... Prost already attempted it earlier
this year with Ligier!  It's his dream.  Now, he won't get such a position,
taking either Frank Williams' or Ron Dennis' positions (not available in the
near future).  but ... what about that Scuderia Italia startup with Ferrari
engines?  or something like that.  any chance of a Niki Lauda-like position at
the Sauber startup ?  Prost would add a LOT to that effort ... credibility, big
sponsor attraction etc.

I'm not sure what ... but something about the last month's conjecturing doesn't
add up  ... to me?

/Mike Coughlin

Here's what the Swiss press are saying that Mansell said - anyone confirm or
deny? I'm translating - and my Franglais may be a little long-winded; however 
the content is correct:

Basically, Nigel would 'accept' Prost in the team.

"He [Prost] the best ever racing driver finished his career catastrophically
because he was fired by Ferrari, the most famous team in the world. I don't
think that he realises how much progress I've made since then. I know how to
set up a car, I can push it hard if necessary and I am also a much braver racer
than he will ever be, even if he stays in Formula 1 for another 10 years"

"If Prost joins the team then it will be up to him to adapt. I am the world
champion and I am happy with my position. Prost cannot behave in the same way
that he did at Ferrari. I know all the mechanics, all the engineers. All of them
will tell me straight away what he is doing, and he cannot get away with what
he did before".

My comments:

I agree with everything that you say Nigel - 100%. So everything is stacked in
your favour - you are a superb driver, you are well established at williams
and the team doesn't have a favourite.

So why not sign-up and get on with it - why is there this lingering self-doubt?

Cheers

Steve

RE: .109

As said in already in these notes, Ron is not taking things lying down:

	- He's still in contact with Senna, of course
	- He's in touch with Prost
	- He made contact with Mansell
	- He's made a play for Schumacher AND the ford V12.

Frank Williams learnt his lesson about engines with Honda - he lost the deal
(and was 2� years in the wilderness) because he did not follow the wishes of
Mr. Honda. The relationship with Bernard Dudot and Renault works well - Renault
are really over the moon about this season. However they see a chance for a
sales coup with Prost (or a bad press if he they do not push him) - so they are
pushing Frank hard. The French press are very chauvinistic (of course, the
British aren't :-) :-) ) and could really make Renault's Formula 1 success
back-fire on them.

Williams, for his part, couldn't give a tinker's cuss for the drivers. He knows
that he needs a good pilot - Senna is his personal favourite; however Prost and
Mansell (when he's quiet) also fit the bill. From Frank's perspective the car
is the most important element and he really resents the high fees demanded by
the top drivers - because it takes money away from R&D. If Senna has made a
low-price offer then I think that we may yet be in for a suprise....

So the three drivers' positions are:

- Prost FFr's by the bucket load. 
- Mansell - difficult to drop because of the bad publicity that this would
  attract.
- Senna - very tempting if he's coming in 'cheap' (lets say less than $10m).

McLaren? Well everyone knows that they're a great team - but not next season.
Prost, Senna and Mansell want to be champion in '93...

Cheers

Steve

    
    Re: .109
    
    Mike,
    
    I don't see Prost joining Sauber for '93 since he wants to win the
    championship, and the _perception_ is that only one team is capable
    of that.  But, your musing about Prost and Sauber is a very interesting
    thought and I think a sound one as well.  What a combination...
    Mercedes, Sauber, Prost and Schumacher!
    
    - Nate

    re  .105
    
    Ed, I seem to recall Prost and God knows who else, all helmeted up
    (having just stepped out of his car) taking swings at the driver who
    forced him off. Could it have been Piquet?
    
    The venue I think was Monza
    
    			George Frost

    
    Piquet and some South American (Guerrero?) at Hockenheim?
    
    Mark

    
    I notice that Ferrari have re-hired the Brit? who helped engineer/design 
    their race winning cars a few seasons ago.
    
    Williams may be "hit" competitively hard, from the Italian camp next 
    season.
    
    Funny thing these car designer folks, most of the good ones are British....
    re:Audi Coupe' and turbo quattros, which were designed by a 28 year old
    Englishman.........not a lot of people know that!!!
    
    J.
    
      

read over the internet that Schumacher and Patrese have signed for
Benetton for 1993.  Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Dave

    Schumacher at Benetton ?? I thought he had signed for Sauber to drive
    with Wendlinger. Patrase could be correct, it's a move that would make
    sense since Brundle is reported to be moving to Sauber with Schumacher.
    
    Dave Mac.

    
    Blimey.
    
    Schumacher DEFINITELY (as definitely as anything is in F1 :^)) is staying
    with Benneton. This was sorted out months ago!!!!
    
    Patrese does make sense to Benneton (An Italian company after all) and
    with lots of experience (Unmatched) and a usually cool head. 
    
    I wonder if it's true?
    
    Mark

    re .114
    
    No no MArk,
    
    	I'm sure it was Prost ...and somebody else. Perhaps '86/87?
    
    
    			GLF

Lets get the Schumacher bit clear:

- He's signed for Benetton for four seasons (3 seasons left to go).
- He has a get out clause that if MERCEDES re-enter Formula 1 then he can go to
  them (he and Wendlinger are Mercedes' proteg�s)
- Sauber is having big Mercedes backing for the Formula 1 project.
- However Sauber <> Mercedes, so Schumacher stays put - unless he breaks his
  contract.

Wendlinger is definitely signed for Sauber. Peter Sauber has being paying for
Wendlinger's seat at March - so that he can get valuable F1 experience. I would
be amazed if he threw those $$$$s away - especially when Karl has acquitted
himself well and is well regarded in F1.

Wendlinger's team mate needs to be experienced - a new team needs a tester. 
Boutsen is definitely in the frame; however Brundle makes sense as well if his
services are no longer required at Benetton...

Steve

RE: .115

John Barnard is the name.

He is a superb engineer - particularly in the area of aerodynamics. He was also
responsible for the Chaparral Indycar, the MP4 Mclaren (which won championships
for Lauda, Prost and Senna) and more recent Benetton's.

His pedigree is without dispute. However, he is a very difficult man to deal
with - which is why he moves through so many teams.

Some examples:

- Last time that he was at Ferrari, he was made head of engineering; however 
  this was based in Guildford as he refused to move to Maranello. 

- He got given a Ferrari sports car as part of his package - but dimissed it 
  saying that he already had the best sports car in the world (a Mercedes).

- He tried to change the working habits of the Ferrari mechanics - reducing
  their lunchbreaks (and wine consumption). This caused a very bad feeling.

- He caused a split within Ferrari by cricising the engine group severely.


All in all, Barnard is superb - Ferrari could not do any better. I feel that
his criticisms were valid - however he does not have the 'tact' to change
things. He needs to work closely with Luca Montezolo (the Ferrari team manager,
who IS a good manager and politician) to get these changes implemented. Formula
1 (even at the Maranello) is not a 9-5 job - they need to get a feeling of
urgency, of 'meaness' into all their operations - like McLaren or Williams.

Cheers

Steve

re .105 etc

Piquet had a punch-up with Salazar (sp?) who pushed him off while being 
lapped. Didn't even wait for him to get his helmet off. Twat!
I think it was Monza, early eighties.

/Paul.

    
    Piquet had the fight with ? at Hockenhiem.
    

more from internet - Berger's back at Ferrari for '93 (with Alesi)

Dave

    I think that I heard that Senna stays with McLaren next year. Can
    anyone confirm?
    
    		George Frost

    Re .120
    Thanks for sorting out the Schumacher bit, this Sauber - Mercedes thing
    is a 'touch' confusing.
    
    Recent reports suggest that Boutsen may end up at Jordan, the logic
    behind that being that they both share the same sponser - it seems a
    pity that he seems set to leave Ligier just as they seem to be getting
    their act back together again (at least in relative terms).
    
    Dave
    

Re. 120

Why is Boutsen so much in demand?  If Mansell is the most +ve on the "excitement" 
scale, Boutsen is the most -ve.  Thoughts?

				-- Carlos.

RE: .125

The only definite that I've heard is Berger to Ferrari.  I haven't heard
any official announcement concerning Senna, just lots of posturing and
speculation.

--PSW

    I have to say if I were working at Ferrari, the thought of Berger on the
    team would be somewhat depressing.   Good average driver that he is, he
    rarely sparkles even in a fine car and being tall he causes all sorts
    of problems for cockpit design...

    Heard this morning.
    
    Senna to go to Williams....Prost is seething.
    
    		George Frost

re.130:

If true and Mansell stays then...brilliant!

Dave.

Berger in his press conference about going to Ferrari let it slip that
negotiations between Senna and Williams were in an advanced state....

However, nothing was said by the commentator during practice. He talked about
Patrese at Benetton being almost a certainty, but nothing about this...

Wonder where it leaves Williams and Renault - I hope that this will not cause a
'scene'?!

I wonder if Mansell's moaning about Prost is going to backfire on him? I'd
rather have Prost than Senna as a team mate - I'd have a (Slightly) better
chance of beating him!

So it could well be Prost to McLaren (taking the Renault engine with him?)

Steve

    
    Strangely, Mansell seemed happier with the idea of Senna as a team-mate
    than with Prost, in recent interviews.
    
    Did anyone else see the 16 page special on Mansell in MN? Far from
    being a non-stop back slapping essay it was mainly made up of old 
    (dating back to 1981?) articles published in MN about him. Some of the
    comments he made (and others made about him) sound very amusing with
    hindsight.
    
    Mark

>Some of the comments he made (and others made about him) sound very amusing
>with hindsight.

Go on, give us some examples!

Dave :-)

    
    Well the one which immediately springs to mind is Peter Warr's comment
    :-
    
    "Nigel Mansell will never win a GP as long as he has a hole in his
    arse!"
    
    There are also many comments about Mansell's reputation as a whinger...
    
    Mansell made a comment in an early article that he'd like to continue
    throughout his F1 career with Lotus...(Maybe he'll return to them, one
    day?).
    
    There are also frequent comments about his determination to succeed and
    how many of the later up-and-coming British drivers should take his
    example if they really want to make it to the top.
    
    It makes interesting reading. If you like I'll note a few more of the
    'highlights' and put them in next week.
    
    Mark 

RE.135:

Thanks Mark. Makes you wonder how Nige manages in the dump department :-)

Dave.

Re. 135

Thanks, Mark.  Unfortunately, the racing press in the U.S. provides us with 
little or scant coverage of anything interesting in F1, so we depend on guys
like you to provide us with some of the really juicy details from the European
press.  So, thanks ...


Re. 130

George, where did you hear about Senna's move to Williams?  That would certainly
change my perspective for next season.  'Course, I would just love to see those
two guys end up at the "top" team without the "top" engine so as to get a better
reading on the relative weight of the various F1 components (engine, chassis, 
driver and team).  Wouldn't it be great if Prost goes to MacLaren and beats those
guys in the championship - like he previously did to Piquet and Mansell?

				-- Carlos. 

    Carlos,
    
    	heard the news on German TV last night. However...............
    
    	French radio coverage just two hours ago made it known that
    	Senna said today that he will dfinitelt NOT be going to Williams?
    
    		George Frost

�    Mansell made a comment in an early article that he'd like to continue
�    throughout his F1 career with Lotus...(Maybe he'll return to them, one
�    day?).
    
    This was probably because (the late) Colin Chapman acted as his mentor
    and gave him the extra encouragement and support that he needed.  I don't
    suppose he would be so likely to return now.  I guess that besides his
    (Nigel's) own extreme self-confidence, Frank Williams has shown a lot of
    faith in him over the past few (6 ?) years, which is what he needs..
    
    J.R.

  � and gave him the extra encouragement and support that he needed.  I don't 
  � suppose he would be so likely to return now.  I guess that besides his
    
    Certainly Chapman was his mentor then. As for him not returning; well,
    Lotus are now established as a leading midfield team, it wouldn't take
    a lot for them to be a front running contender and Peter Warr is a
    great fan on Mansell (now and always).
    
    Mark

    There are a lot of reports about that state that Prost's contract has a
    "No Senna" clause.
    
    Whether the contract is draft or signed, it seems Frank Williams is not
    happy with this clause......
    
    
    JK

    At the risk of upsetting George, it seems that the real pain in all
    this process is Le Prof with his various exclusive clauses in his
    "contract". It almost appears that he is manuevering Senna and Mansell
    out of the picture for next season. The best thing they could do would
    be to agree to both drive for Williams together and freeze Prost out.
    
    On a happier note, Herbert has re-signed as team leader for Lotus,
    which begs the question of whither Hakkinen? He must have a good drive
    lined up for next year. Sauber or McLaren maybe? Also, who joins Lotus?
    Michael Andretti maybe?
    
    Paul

Senna is in the frame because (apart from the fact that he is a superb driver)
Mansell has made seemingly outrageous financial demands - it might just be his
undoing....

The Vice-President of Renault Sport (Dudot's boss) said last night that all
driver decisions were up to Frank Williams, but that as a matter of course
Williams discussed such major decisions with the President of Renault. 
So Renault aren't actually pushing Prost - sure !!

Incidentally Bernard Dudot has been with Renault Sport for 15 years - since
their first foray into F1. Patience has been rewarded and I am really happy for
Renault and him. He is a really dedicated, professional manager - and provides
the cohesion to the Renault outfit. Now if Ferrari had someone like him to run
the show....

Steve

    Well on Sunday Murray said that Prost had signed with Williams, but
    that there was an exclusion clause naming Senna.  The Sunday mail
    reported that Mansell was furious because in the previous draft He was
    also named alongside Senna in the exclusion clause.  This if true would
    certainly be called disruptive in my book!!.
    
    In an interview with Senna on BBC after qualifying, Senna gave a most
    definate impression that he would not be racing next year.  This I
    think would be a great shame, as it will deny the race fans the chance
    to see one of the best drivers on the track for another year.
    
    I am surprised that there hasn't been more talk of the new regulations
    coupled with who's going to drive what.  These regulations do have the
    possibility of upsetting the applecart, and taking away Williams great
    superiority.
    
    It may just be that McLaren produce an all conquering car designed to
    fit the new regulations, just as they did when the Turbo's were
    outlawed.  This could give rise to an "unknown" knicking the
    Championship.  Maybe they (McLaren) will put McNish into competition?.
    
    Who knows?  I think it could be a very interesting season with some
    drivers regretting desicions that they are making at the moment.
    
    Cheers Ian...
    

    .140�    a lot for them to be a front running contender and Peter Warr is a
    .140�    great fan on Mansell (now and always).
    
    Mark, I thought Peter Warr had left Team Lotus (or had been fired) a
    few years ago when the DeLorean case and a few other problems surfaced.
     
    He currently holds a technical position at FISA. I don't think he has
    anything to do with Lotus anymore. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    
    Yes, you're right. I don't mean Peter Warr (or do I?). Who was the boss
    at Benneton who moved to Lotus. That's who I mean (I think? :^))
    
    Mark
    
    

    .129�   I have to say if I were working at Ferrari, the thought of Berger on the
    .129�   team would be somewhat depressing.   Good average driver that he is, he
    .129�   rarely sparkles even in a fine car and being tall he causes all sorts
    .129�   of problems for cockpit design...
    
    Berger has always been very brutal with the engine and transmission.
    This can be observed from the in-car camera shots of the last 2 years.
    I'm sure the Honda engineers are frightened each time Gerhard shifts
    gears ...
    
    The semi-automatic gearbox system prevents all sorts of mishandling and
    conserves both engine and transmission.
    
    Size: Berger is tall but not that tall (about same as Mansell, Boutsen
    or Patrese). Wendlingler is TALL. 

    Re .146
    
    Peter Collins, Johnny Herbert's mentor.
    
    Paul
    
    

    
    Thank you, Paul, Collins it was!!!!
    
    Mark

RE: the last few...

The musical chairs are really hotting up now:

McLaren, at present, have no driver confirmed for next season -- or
definate engine supplier! Hakkinen had crossed my mind for this team.

It seems clear that Prost has indeed signed for Williams and will drive
next year for them, and that his contract excludes Senna from being
his team mate there.

Benetton, at present, have three drivers in the frame; Schumacker,
Patrese and Brundle. According Murray Walker, Patrese is rumoured to have
signed to Benetton for next year and that Schumacher has had talks
with McLaren. He also reported that contracts -- in the present climate --
were very saleable items and suggested that Patrese's signing could
purely be to 'sell' him on to a higher bidder -- even McLaren, again.

Poor old Martin Brundle, races well but where does he fit in?

Ferrari. All settled.

Lotus? Herbert plus Andretti?

The recent point about regulations is a good one. I think we saw the new
fuel regulations affect the seasons form book at Spa on Sunday.

Terry B.

    Another Andretti at Lotus ?? I'm not sure. I think they might end up
    with Brundle, or even Blundell.
    
    McLaren are unlikely to go for a driver without F1 experience. It's
    possible Comas has impressed enough to earn a top drive. I doubt if
    Senna would quit F1, I think he's just calling Williams and McLarens
    bluff.
    
    dave
    

Yes Dave, you could be right.

In Sundays commentary, Murray Walker added that Senna may drive next year
if the RIGHT offer came along.

Now, we know Frank Williams is a Senna fan. And we still don not know
what Hondas plans are.

Anyway, at Spa, the top cars were as evenly matched as they have ever
been this season. Maybe a Honda-less McLaren won't be too much of a
disadvantage to the Brazilian.

Terry.

They were only evenly matched because of the weather - rain is always a
leveller of performances.

In qualifying Mansell was 2.2 seconds faster than Senna - that is an enormous
gap, even taking into account the fact that Spa is 7km long. In full-tanks
warm-up he was still over a second faster.

I don't see anyone catching Williams up for a while yet...

Steve

    Next year ?
    
    Remember that 1993 cars (new Fisa rules) will be very different. In
    fact each car has to be completely redesigned from scratch. As a
    consequence of this the 1993 leader might not be the same as the
    1992's.
    
    This change of regulations is actually not entirely pushed by FISA
    only. It surfaces that the main push for change came from ... Ferrari
    when new boss Luca di Montezemolo managed to convince FISA, FOCA and a
    lot of non-winning teams to do something about the current Williams
    domination. Only Benetton and McLaren did not follow.
    
    The new rules seem to favor (highly technical people told me) the
    small, light cars. As a result of this a small light engine is
    preferable to a big heavy thristy one. Benetton seem to be on the right
    profile.
    
    What does all this mean ?
    
    Will Williams-Renault still dominate ? Their new FW15 will be unveiled
    very soon. It is built to the 1993 specs.
    
    Will Ferrari abandon the V12 ? build a V8 ?
    
    Will Honda return to their succesfull V10 ? or quit (as makes sense
    when you consider Berger left and what Senna did at Spa).
    
    .... ????

    15" tyres
    
    The reason to change from the current situation is to decrease the grip
    or adhesion and decrease the cornering speeds as well as increase the
    braking distance. As a side effect, because of the reduction the
    overall width of the cars top speed will be increased. All this was
    done
    
    	- to make F1 more spectacular
        - not to increase safety
    
    Goodyear, the sole supplier of F1 tyres, reacted negatively. Reason is
    obvious: they have to throw away their inventory, throw away the molds
    and design. The 15" tyres will use different compounds etc ...
    
    Goodyear tried to block the change and offered to make 16.5" tyres
    instead. Suddenly everyone agreed on the 15". How did this happen ?
    
    Well the negotiation was handled by FISA No2 man: Bernie Ecclestone.
    Bernie owns the F3000 championship (actually he created it as a way to
    recycle 3ltr DFV engines when F1 moved to 3.5ltr). The F3000 sole      
    supplier of tyres is AVON and, surprise surprise, the tyres are exactly
    15" wide. "Mr Goodyear, either you supply 15" tyres or Avon will".
    Guess what happened.
    
    The F1 teams either get tyres free or they pay. The paying teams were
    equally unhappy about the change: they have to throw away dozens of
    very expensive alloy wheels. They also have to completely redesign cars
    from scratch. Lot of work and lots of money needed right now.

    
    Some thoughts and other rumours....
    
    Sauber (with Mercedes $$) will take Wendlinger but will need another
    driver. Who?
    
    Peugeot seemed very keen to get into F1 now that the WSPC farce is
    drawing to a close from what their boss said after Suzuka. 
    
    McLaren have been talking to BMW and Mercedes(!)  
    
    Both Toyota and Nissan have 3.5 litre engines but I don't know if they
    are interested in F1.
    
    Audi have also been building a 3.5 engine.
    
    I wonder what Mercedes think about Schumacher. Maybe he won't want to
    join them when they eventually get their act together!
    
    

    NICE Matin (a local paper) ran an article in which Peugeot sport
    manager (I believe) said that they would be in at the top level of
    motor sport for '93.
    
    As F1 is the top level??????? and since there is considerable doubt 
    about the Sports Car championship continuing next year, does this bode
    well for a secret super car from Peugeot for F1 next year?
    
    		George Frost

Maybe they will just supply their engines to somebody.

Team Marlboro McLaren Peugeot has quite a ring to it.

With regard to the wet weather being a leveller at Spa...

Yes that's true, but at Spain when it was very wet, the Williams was still
dominant. Remember Schumacher getting to be as close to Mansell as
4 seconds, and then Mansell just pulled away?

Didn't happen in Spa. And Mansell is acknowledged as being a
reasonable wet weather driver.

Things WILL be a bit different next year. Ferrari and McLaren can't
afford another repeat of this season.

Terry B

Me again...

According to CEEFAX yesterday...

Ricardo Patrese has gone on record as saying he 'talking' to other teams for
1993, as Williams haven't asked to drive for them. He confirms
that he has spoken to Benetton, McLaren and Ligier. He added
that he wants to go to Ferrari -- but nobody there wanted to talk to him!

In the same piece, CEEFAX tell us that in a Swiss newspaper interview
Nigel Mansell is 'angry' at the way things are going with regard to
his driving arrangements for next season.

Apart from dismissing Ayrton Sennas offer to drive for Williams for
free as "rubbish", Sir Nigel feels angry that he is last in line at
Williams for 1993... "...the world champion is last in line, that's
saying something!" Or words to that effect.

Poor old Nigel. While other teams are prepared to talk to Riccardo, the
quickest moustache in the west must sit and wait for ex-World Champs
to decide.

Oh yes, in this bit of CEEFAX reporting, the talk was that Prost has STILL to
sign for Williams?

Now, today in CEEFAX, Riccardo Patrese confirms that he has indeed signed
to drive for Benetton in 1993. He will join Michael Schumacher, replacing
Martin Brundle.

So, we start to draw up those maps of teams and drivers. Might look
a bit messy in some places, but jolly good fun:

Canon Williams Renault: Prost(?) + Mansell or Comas or Brundle (I kid you not.
                        Apparently, our Martin is on the short list for Frank
                        and at McLaren!)

Marlboro McLaren Honda(?): any from Senna, Brundle, Schumacher, Comas...

Ferrari: Berger and Alesi. All settled, now.

Benetton-Ford: Patrese and Schumacher(?)

Lotus-Ford: Herbert and Hakkinen (wanted but not signed -- yet)

Sauber: Wendlinger and Lehto

Lola BMS Scuderia Italia: Capelli and Martini


Terry B.

	From "L'Equipe" this morning:

	Patrese has indeed signed to Benetton, where he'll drive with
	Shumacher. Riccardo says Benetton is the team to offer the best 
	chances for prompt results after Williams and before McLaren 
	and Ferrari. 

	Wendlinger has done some testing with the new Sauber F1 (Illmor V10
	for the moment): drove 100 km without any major problems. No more
	comment, unfortunately.

	Senna is getting hysterical and multiplying spoiled-kid gossips
	just about everybody. It's a bit of a pain in the neck to see such
	a great champion behave like a little child who's crying because
	his mum doesn't want to buy him an extra ice-cream. The article
	about it was quite reproachful about Senna's attitude, and yet
	it was written by one of his best (enamoured ?) fan: the young
	Anne Giuntini.

	A la prochaine.

		Pierre 

    I don't think there is any big problem with Prost signing with
    Williams, Renault and Elf. Yes, we know there could be some personnal
    things (like the non-Senna clause, who really dominates, etc ...).
    
    More important are all the details like: how will a Marlboro man sign
    with a non-Marlboro team, which stickers will be affixed on his suit,
    which will appear on the car, what size, ... who pays for what, who
    owns what, ???
    
    The way I understand it: that's what is causing delays in the Williams
    signature process. All the parties have obviously agreed on not
    disclosing anything before a certain date which explains all the
    gossip.

While Mansell was at Ferrari, he was Marlboro sponsored to
an extent. The problem IS negotioable.

Terry

    Ron Dennis is effectively working hard on getting both an engine and
    drivers for 1993. Latest news: he is trying to get both the Ford V12
    and Schumacher.
    
    Good luck Ron.

    Honda's retirement from F1 is likely to be announced at Monza next
    week.

Patrick,
	Its not the latest news - I said that in 1830.111 (24-Aug) !

>>  <<< Note 1830.163 by ULYSSE::CHEVAUX "Patrick Chevaux @VBE, DTN 828-5584" >>>
>>                                 -< McLaren-? >-
>>
>>    Ron Dennis is effectively working hard on getting both an engine and
>>    drivers for 1993. Latest news: he is trying to get both the Ford V12
>>    and Schumacher.
    
Steve :-)

Michael Andretti is reported by CEEFAX to have signed for McWhichEngine for '93
replacing Berger.

Dave.

    
    Finnish newspapers reported H�kkinen made a deal with Lotus. Also 
    Herbert did. JJ Lehto is still a ?.
    
    
    Hannu

    .167�    Herbert did. JJ Lehto is still a ?.
    
    Lehto is reported to have almost signed with Sauber. At least they keep
    seing ech other. Talking about Sauber, Wendlinger should be test
    driving very soon (if not already).
    
    Andretti ? Which one ? One of the Andrettis recently admitted he had
    talked to F1 guys only to get a favorable deal from his team manager.
    
    Other man at McLaren might be Mark Blundell (currently test driver)

    Confimation from the Beeb, L'Equipe and other sources. Michael Andretti
    will be driving a Mclaren next year. It's still not clear whether the
    car will have an engine or not.
    
    Ed.

      Re. -1  Well, now we'll finally get a chance to see if
    Indy car Drivers can run with the big boys. 
    
    An American who thinks Indy car drivers should stay in Indy cars
    
    KC

	A reliable report in the British press has it that Ferrari
	will be moving all of their racing car construction, except
	engines, to a southern England location as of next year.

	When Barnard was last technical director he had the design 
	office located in GB but now it seems the whole entity is
	coming.

	-John

    "Prancing Shirehorses" - I like that  :-)
    
�	engines, to a southern England location as of next year.

    Don't suppose anyone knows where this is likely to be ?
    
�	When Barnard was last technical director he had the design 
�	office located in GB but now it seems the whole entity is coming.
    
    I thought that, previously, some of the manufacturing was also in the UK.
    
    A number of the staff at 'GTO' certainly wore AGIP overalls at work...
    
    J.R.

    .169�    Confimation from the Beeb, L'Equipe and other sources. Michael Andretti
    .169�    will be driving a Mclaren next year.
    
    This seems to be another confirmation of Honda quitting F1.
    
    Anyone know (US readers) what engine manufacturer is linked with
    Michael Andretti ? GM ? Ford ? other ? That will probably tell us
    which engine McLaren will be using.

    Lambourghini/Larousse is selling part of their action to the public in a
    most curious way.
    
    They are advertising on Radio Retch or Radio Triviera (Radio Riviera an 
    English/Italian station here on the cote d'Azur), as follows:
    
    	"Do you want to OWN your own F1 racing team?....write to this
    number.....or phone for your own piece of the action etc.etc.
    
    Anywhere else in the world?
    
    		George Frost

    Michael is currently running with a Ford engine in the Indy car races,
    so maybe McLaren are getting the Ford V8.  It could make for an
    interesting series next year.  Now if McLaren do sign Schumacher then
    it will be reaaaal interesting watching the Yank VS the german
    youngster.
    

Okay!  We have the following confirmed so far, right?

	MacLaren:	Michael Andretti 

	Williams:	Alain Prost and NOT Ayrton Senna

	Benetton:	Riccardo Patrese and Michael Schumacher

	Ferrari:	Jean Alesi and Gerhard Berger

	Lotus:		Mika Hakkinen

	Sauber:		Karl Wendlinger

Notes/questions:  

	1.  Berger makes $10M/yr and Schumacher makes $200K/yr.  
	    Does Schumacher's win at Spa change his salary?

	2.  Ford's "golden boy" is Robbie Gordon.  
	    Does Andretti's move mean Ford engines to MacLaren and Robbie
	    Gordon to Newman-Haas and then eventually to MacLaren?

	3.  Andretti is sponsored by K-Mart/Texaco/Havoline.
	    Will Shell be leaving MacLaren?

    Just to add some of my own ideas!
    
    #1 Is Schumacher 100% confirmed at Benetton?
    
    #2 Shell will not leave Mclaren because I don't think
    K-Mart/Texaco/Havoline are interested in the global marketplace.
    
    #3 Your guess is as good as anybody's when it comes to who will replace
    Michael at Newman-Haas, although I wouldn't be surprised to see Paul
    Tracy getting an offer. (maybe even Cheever).
    
    #4 I think Schumacher's win at Spa should gather him a few more $'s,
    but i don't think he will be making over 1 million for 93.
    
    So just when does this silly season end anyways?????
    regards,
    JP

RE: .175

I'm not sure that Michael Andretti is linked to any particular engine 
manufacturer.  His current team, Newmann-Haas Racing, is one of the two teams 
running the new Ford/Cosworth IndyCar engine, but last year they were running 
the Chevy/Ilmor engines, not the Cosworth DFS.  Although one might call 
Newman-Haas a Ford team, I don't think you can say that Michael Andretti is a 
Ford-sponsored driver.

--PSW

What a coup for Michael Kranefuss, head of Ford racing!
What a break for Ron Dennis - just when everyone thought he was on his _ss!

	I smell some genius in the making for 1993 F1 ...

The Benneton and Lola (Andretti) teams have demonstrated that the Ford V8's are no boat anchors.  This first year Ford Indy engine has consistently outpowered the Chevys, including leading Indy - until a fuel pump let go.  They could be the hot setup under the new rules restricting tire width; their lower starting weight could look like genius a year from now...

F1 gets a top U.S. shoe (for promotion reasons) ... and maybe the pull for a U.S. GP again?

Ford gets Ayrton Senna - caught without alternative options!!!  along with Michael Andretti to push him to interesting things ... If you think, Nigel pulls some hair-raising passes, wait till you see this Andretti kid try to prove he's equal to Senna!

The international advertising/promotional value of this combination boggles the mind...
Just when Renault thought they stole Williams for French promotion, they'll have two of the most agressive drivers in the world chasing them in McFords!  Elf/Renault's new chauffer-wanna-be-manager will be upstaged in the press by the Senna/Andretti McFords!

If Senna doesn't go for a McFord (but I'll bet he will), it will be V E R Y tempting for ol' Nigel.  Can you imagine Nigel and Michael Andretti in McFords?  These two would redefine the term A G G R E S S I V E !!!

Alain will be whining like a bleating goat, as he disruptively tries to take over F1 - to legislate-out "commitment"		:^)

1993 might be less than boring, afterall ...
/Mike

What a coup for Michael Kranefuss, head of Ford racing!
What a break for Ron Dennis - just when everyone thought he was on his _ss!

I smell some genius in the making for 1993 F1 ...

The Benneton and Lola (Andretti) teams have demonstrated that the Ford V8's are
no boat anchors.  This first year Ford Indy engine has consistently outpowered
the Chevys, including leading Indy - until a fuel pump let go.  They could be
the hot setup under the new rules restricting tire width; their lower starting
weight could look like genius a year from now...

F1 gets a top U.S. shoe (for promotions unlimited) ... and maybe the pull for a
U.S. GP again?

Ford gets Ayrton Senna - caught without alternative options!!!

	along with Michael Andretti to push him to interesting things ...

If you think, Nigel pulls some hair-raising passes, wait till you see this
Andretti kid try to prove he's equal to Senna!

The international advertising/promotional value of this combination boggles the
mind...

Just when Renault thought they stole Williams for French promotion,
they'll have two of the most agressive drivers in the world chasing them in
McFords!  Elf/Renault's new chauffer-wanna-be-manager will be upstaged in the
press by the Senna/Andretti McFords!

If Senna doesn't go for a McFord (but I'll bet he will), it will be V E R Y
tempting for ol' Nigel.  Can you imagine Nigel and Michael Andretti in McFords? 
These two would redefine the term A G G R E S S I V E !!!

Alain will be whining like a bleating goat, as he disruptively tries to take
over F1 - to legislate-out "commitment"		:^)

1993 might be less than boring, afterall ...
/Mike

    Hey, I thought the comment on Ford engines for McLaren was just a
    prospective guess.  Or is there some definite facts on this ?
    
    Also, have Williams not yet signed anyone ?
    I didn't think Prost was definite yet (although it does appear that
    he WILL NOT agree to be in the same team as Senna).
    
    J.R.

    .177�    #1 Is Schumacher 100% confirmed at Benetton?
    
    Yes. We all know that contracts can always be negotiated (ie rebought
    for some amount) but in this particular case Flavio Briatore made it
    clear that there was no way (M$) anyone could get Schumacher.
    
    Besides, as noted elsewhere, Benetton has already got a winning car and
    NEXT YEAR they will probably be in a better position due to the new F1
    rules (car width, tyre width).
    
    .177�    #4 I think Schumacher's win at Spa should gather him a few more $'s,
    .177�    but i don't think he will be making over 1 million for 93.
    
    Don't bother. There are other ways to get paid. Benetton Brothers may
    be paying him only 200K$. The M$'s come from other places. Each time
    have their own mechanism. Ferrari for instance don't pay for their
    drivers, Marlboro does.

RE: a few back...

Don't forget to add Johnny Herbert to the Lotus line-up for 1993.

J. J. Lehto is tipped -- not confirmed -- for Sauber.

Capelli and P. L. Martini for Lola BMS (Dallara).


Current press reports all but confirm that Schumacher will remain
at Benetton for 93. Brundle is having to look around and McLaren 
and Williams are team names STILL mentioned in the same breath
as Martin. As we all know, there is never smoke without a fire.

The silence from Williams is deafening. As I read things, Prost is
still in the frame, but it is un-confirmed (although a few weeks ago
we seemed to get reports that he was definately driving for them).

As for engines, I'd have thought the Ford would be a good bet
for Ron and the gang, regardless of the drivers. I would also
have thought that McLaren would be a team nearly any engine maker
would like to be associated with. But Honda still haven't pulled
out -- yet.


Terry B

    Reply 179 (Reformatted for those of us with reading difficulties!!)
    
    <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>> -< CARS_UK
    conference >-
    ================================================================================
    Note 1830.179                 Formula1: 1993 season                  
    179 of 183 PERCPT::COUGHLIN                                     20
    lines   9-SEP-1992 02:34 -< Oh Ayrton, have YOU driven a Ford, lately?
    >-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What a coup for Michael Kranefuss, head of Ford racing!
 What a break
    for Ron Dennis - just when everyone thought he was on his _ss!
 
    
    I smell some genius in the making for 1993 F1 ...
 
    
    The Benneton and Lola (Andretti) teams have demonstrated that the Ford
    V8's are no boat anchors.  This first year Ford Indy engine has
    consistently outpowered the Chevys, including leading Indy - until a
    fuel pump let go.  They could be the hot setup under the new rules
    restricting tire width; their lower starting weight could look like
    genius a year from now...
 
    
    F1 gets a top U.S. shoe (for promotion reasons) ... and maybe the pull
    for a U.S. GP again?
 
 
    
    Ford gets Ayrton Senna - caught without alternative options!!!  along
    with Michael Andretti to push him to interesting things ... If you
    think, Nigel pulls some hair-raising passes, wait till you see this
    Andretti kid try to prove he's equal to Senna!
 
 
    
    The international advertising/promotional value of this combination
    boggles the mind...
 
    Just when Renault thought they stole Williams for French promotion,
    they'll have two of the most agressive drivers in the world chasing
    them in McFords!  Elf/Renault's new chauffer-wanna-be-manager will be
    upstaged in the press by the Senna/Andretti McFords!
 
 
    
    If Senna doesn't go for a McFord (but I'll bet he will), it will be V E
    R Y tempting for ol' Nigel.  Can you imagine Nigel and Michael Andretti
    in McFords?  These two would redefine the term A G G R E S S I V E !!!
    
 
    
    Alain will be whining like a bleating goat, as he disruptively tries to
    take over F1 - to legislate-out "commitment"		:^)
 
 
    
    1993 might be less than boring, afterall ...
 /Mike

Prost confirmed at Williams/Renault this morning according to French radio.
Mansell was informed at the Belgian GP ...

re.185:

Still not confirmed according to John Watson in Ceefax.

Dave.

    Re. Ford at Mclaren.
    
    I thought that Benetton had some sort of exclusive agreement for
    preferential treament from Ford. Does that agreement extend to 1993? I
    can hardly see Big Ron accepting to play second fiddle to Benetton.
    
    Salut,
    Ed.

    According to this mornings paper, Mansell is quoted as saying that he
    reached agreement with Williams at the Hungarian Grand Prix, but from
    tuesday things had changed. He says he expects to finalise things after
    Monza.

    .187�    I thought that Benetton had some sort of exclusive agreement for
    .187�    preferential treament from Ford. Does that agreement extend to 1993? I
    .187�    can hardly see Big Ron accepting to play second fiddle to Benetton.
    
    Benetton have received preferential treatment in getting the Ford V8 
    HB series 7 engine vs the 'ordinary' series 5 used by other teams.
    
    As far as new engines (especially the V12) are concerned Benetton
    team managers have been more than sceptical. Ron Dennis may have a
    different view.
    
    The new rules are forcing every team to complete redesign their chassis
    with new weight distribution, new aerodynamics, etc ... It will be very
    interesting to see who made the right decision (that is NOW is the time
    to make the right decision).

According to Ceefax Mansell will make an announcement on Saturday at Monza.

Dave.

    As expected HONDA have announced their retirement from F1 at the end of
    the current season.

    Venturi will also bail out of F1 (Venturi sales are very low) and will
    sell their shares in Larrousse to US investment group COMSTOCK and to a
    swedish man who happens to be a COMSTOCK shareholder.
    
    Hard times again for Larrousse: because of another name change (VENTURI
    to COMSTOCK) he'll have to go through prequalifications again (if
    prequalifications needed in 1993).

    
    Talking of prequalifying, how many new teams are planned for next year?
    
    The ones I can think of are:
    
    	Sauber
    	Pacific Racing (F3000 team this year)
    	Some team beginning with a T built in Japan designed by a Swiss guy.
    	Peugeot?
    
    	Any others?
    
    	At this rate, assuming Brabham and Andrea Moda drop out,
    	prequalification will still be needed.
    
    Steve

    As regular readers willknow I am not Mansell's greatest fan!However,
    the past few weeks have left me feeling a great deal of sympathy for
    him. He has won the world championship for Williams, he has driven
    (mostly) very intelligently and maturely, and yet he gets kicked out by
    the team to allow in a driver who has been on the sidelines for 12
    months and was fired from his last team for his disruption.
    
    In all of this affair (to me) the ones who come out very badly are
    Frank Williams and Prost. Williams has let a ludicrous situation come
    about and has probably wrecked his teams base of UK (and wider) support
    for the foreseeable future. It will also be harder for him to get UK
    sponsors. 
    
    As for Prost, as at today it looks like the little French (insert
    suitably xenophobic term of abuse here) has manipulated the whole
    process to ensure that he has effectively no competition next season
    with Mansell and Senna both out of the picture. For any defenders of
    him, remember that his first contract had excluders for both of them,
    not just Senna. Williams should have seen sense and pursuaded Mansell
    to have Senna as a team mate. If by some means Senna ends up at
    Williams next season, he will have my support - but to him personally
    (as it has been at McLaren) my teams will still be Lotus, March and
    Ferrari.
    
    Personally, I hope that Mansell stays with F1 (maybe McLaren?) as does
    Senna. I think the latter is more likely. My real worry is that if
    Senna has a year off he will never come back, and we will have a one
    man show for as long as Prost can continue his political and
    contractual conivances.
    
    If the status quo remains, my only hope will be for Schumacher to find
    the speed to blow Prost away, and put him firmly in his place.
    
    Paul

Has Prost really manipulated anything ? Isn't this just contract negotiation ?

If I'd had problems in the past teaming up with Mansell and Senna, then I'd
try to make sure it didn't happen again. There is obviously a personality
conflict between all three, and which story you believe probably depends on
which driver you prefere ...

Does anyone know if the deal Prost has is with Willians or Renault ? Does
the engine go where he goes ? If so, perhaps this is why Frank allowed Prost
to dictate the terms of the contract. With Prost, or Mansell, or Senna, Williams
Renault should still be the best team next year, unless the opposition 
improve a lot between now and the start of next season.

    .194�    As for Prost, as at today it looks like the little French (insert
    .194�    suitably xenophobic term of abuse here) has manipulated the whole
    .194�    process to ensure that he has effectively no competition next season
    .194�    with Mansell and Senna both out of the picture. For any defenders of
    .194�    him, remember that his first contract had excluders for both of them,
    .194�    not just Senna.
    
    You are right.
    
    What remains to be known is if this Prost's decision or Renault's. If
    it is Renault's then there should be no exclusive clause against
    Mansell.
    
    As far as Prost is concerned, he's a master tactician.
    
    If Mansell really gives up (I'm absolutely not convinced) then the
    Williams doors are wide open for:
    
    
    			....  Al�si
    
    
    I'm pretty sure that Renault's dream for the 1993 Williams set up is:
    
    		Mansell-Prost
    
    and if that does not work:
    
    		Prost-Al�si
    
    Things should be clearer in a few days anyway.

    Honda's 'retirement'
    
    Mr Kawamoto (sp?) president of Honda informed Ron Dennis of their
    decision to retire in
    
    				December 1991
    
    Senna was made aware of this later this season.
    
    The final decision (confirmation) was made before Budapest.
    
    Does this mean that Honda is giving up ? NO, because MUGEN is taking
    over. MUGEN is Mr Honda Junior. The setup will probably be very similar
    to what LANCIA have done in Rallying (they officially retired but in
    fact they have transferred the racing team to a 'private' team).
    
    Prospects for 1993 McLaren engines:
    
    	Honda (Mugen)
    	Ford (Andretti connection)
    	TAG sponsored BMW
                                  

    Based on your note Patrick, and in the light of the Mansell retirement,
    could Mansell return to Ferrari? Senna to Ferrari if Alesi leaves.
    
    Brundle was touted for Williams this weekend by the TF1 commentary
    team.
    Prost said nary a word, just smiled.
    
    I frankly see no injustice in Prost being at the top of the pile and
    making sure of his seat for '93, then making sure that the two previous
    'team mates' that IN HIS OPINION crossed him previously, are excluded
    from the team in which he drives.
    
    Im sure Frank Williams agrees....who wants a host of problems in the
    team which might work to the detriment of the Williams championship
    next year, when Frank Williams can get a stable (interpersonal
    relationships) pair of drivers working for the good of the team?
    
    If Prost feels crossed (in my opinion, that is his objection) then good
    on him that he has managed to exclude Mansell and Senna.
    
    By the by - Prost has not forced Senna or Mansell to retire or take
    sabbaticals, that is their decisions and Prost certainly does not hold
    THAT much sway. If they cannot accept the offered drives because they
    are lesser than those at present - tango sierra.
    
    Senna still has McLaren. He was openly approached by Ferrari. 
    Mansell until yesterday had Williams. I'm sure he has McLaren if
    wanted. Prost simply got in first this year that's all.
    
    		George Frost

    So the spoilt brats of F1 can't get their chosen drive. Shame !
    
    The sport's image is tarnished by people like Senna, Prost and Mansell,
    who refuse to drive unless their given what they ask. It's better to
    get rid of these drivers and give the other talented drivers who don't
    whing, ie Herbert, Schumacher, Berger, some of the limelight. Formula
    One has never been about all cars being equal and every driver having a
    fair chance. If the brats want that then they can go back to the lower
    formulas. It time they recognised that to be a great driver requires
    diplomacy as well as superb skill.
    
    .dave.

    COMMENTS PLEASE:
    
    ESPN noted yesterday that Barnard and Postlethwaite not only are
    urging Ferrari to design and BUILD future cars in England, but also are
    pushing for Ferrari to USE BRIAN HART V10s. (I'd heard Hart was working
    on a V12 . . . )
    
    Also, anything DEFINITIVE on Prost's contract: does it exclude Senna?

RE: -.1

Yes they are building Ferraris in the UK. This answers one of the major
problems that Ferrari has to overcome - industrial relations at Modena.
The best way to resolve them is to move to a green field site - and the UK
(which builds the majority of the World's racing cars) is the ideal place to
go.

I hadn't heard anything about Harts.

Prost's 73 page contract stipulates no Senna. However, in light of what
happened yesterday, Williams will want to be very careful about shooting
themselves in the foot again - Senna bad-mouthing them is the last thing that
their sponsors (Renault and ELF in particular) need. Things can be
're-negotiated' - we haven't heard the last of this yet.

The really interesting transfers have to be the technical people. I'm sure that
several Williams personnel (in particular Adrian Newey the aerodynamicist and 
the electronics specialists) are being targetted - I'd be more interested to
hear if any of them get 'poached'.

Steve

RE: -2.

Will WE ever know the true contents of Prosts contract? I doubt it. The
strongest and most reliable reports suggest that it excludes Senna. It
probobaly ensures AT LEAST equal number one status as the other driver
(if that driver be Mansell, for instance).

RE: 198.

Yes. Frank Williams has to be the team/business owner, as well as team boss.
This means he has to do what is right for the Business and its LONG TERM
success. If this means he has to secure the Renault-Elf deals rather
than the hearts and minds of the 'great' British public, then he
has to do it. Remember, that when he lost the Honda engine and was
left with the Judd, the cars were well off the pace. He won't want a repeat
of that in a hurry.

I just hope Manseel doesn't go to Indy-Car racing. Before he does, he ought to
have a chat with his old 'mate' Nelson P, and then go and play golf.

Anyway, he could just be throwing one of his 'fits', and do an about turn
into a drive at... McLaren?

And Brundle for Williams with EITHER Prost or Senna (At present it seems
as if Prost HAS signed -- Mansells comments this weekend, plus other
replies to this and 1557). Or, Martin to McLaren.

Of course, this would mean that Senna and Mansell would both be out of
the picture next term.?

Terry B

>It time they recognised that to be a great driver requires diplomacy as well as
>superb skill.
    
Ah yes, they need diplomacy, so they can ask the other drivers if it's ok to
pass.

Dave :-)

    Interesting comment on the radio.
    
    What happens to the BIG sponsers that Williams had, ie the ciggies and
    Renault. How do they feel about not having a world champion racing
    under their colours.....

Wait a minute - I'll try to be unbiased for a change.  I understand and share 
some of the emotion being thrown about these windows, but are we really dealing
with the issues.  

	1.  What has Prost done to P** OFF you folks?

	    The little frenchman is an acknowledged master tactician and probably
	    has more negotiation scars on his back than all of us combined.  So,
	    he opened his negotiations with a "reasonable" demand - a no hassle,
	    best-case drive for next year.  Who in their right minds would not
	    want that?  As circumstances (which I do not understand) would have,
	    his BEST CASE position seems close to being satisfied.  Jeez, why
	    blame him for that?  Blame Williams/Renault/Elf/ ... - they are the
	    ones who caved.  Blame Senna and Mansell for causing Prost's 
	    best case demands to look so attractive.  But don't blame Prost for
	    learning from previous "mistakes' and being a good negotiator.
	    (Ironically, I thought that he was a horrible negotiator at the
	    end of the 1991 season.)

	2.  Why are we so upset at others for "causing" Mansell's retirement?

	    Like you folks, I am disappointed at Mansell's departure.  But this
	    is not Prost's, Senna's, etc. fault - it is Mansell's DECISION.
	    According to Mansell's statement (I have a full copy on VHS if you
	    want to borrow it) ALL of his terms were agreed upon by Williams,
	    but he CHOSE to retire because of the principles involved.  If his
	    version of the story was correct, I agree with him that the
	    directors of Williams are sleazebags and I would not only retire,
	    but I would sue them for all they have.  Mansell was clear in
	    stating that his retirement was NOT because of anything that Prost,
	    Renault or any Williams team members had done.  (In fact, he 
	    stated them by name and wished them the best for 1993).  So, stop
	    blaming others for Mansell's DECISION.

	3.  Who care what the drivers think of each other?

	    I disregard Mansell making derogatory statements about Prost (e.g.
	    the "chauffeur" comment), Senna talking down Prost, Prost talking
	    down Senna, etc.  I view that in much the same light as I view
	    Muhammad Ali's loud statements before a fight - it is merely a 
	    psychological tool to gain an advantage.  Guys, it is part of the
	    game!!  Stop wasting cycles on it!  Maybe there is some FIASA insult 
	    coordination body whose sole purpose is to feed the emotions of us
	    fans with fodder.  Watch for them to invent the attacks on 
	    Schumacher and Al�si as soon as they start winning races 
	    consistently :-)

	4.  What do we KNOW?

		  Team		      Drivers		Engine
		  ====		      =======		======

		McLaren		Andretti  		
		Williams				Renault
		Benetton	Schumacher & Patrese	Ford
		Ferrari		Al�si & Berger		
		Lotus		Hakkinnen 		Ford
		Ligier		Comas 			Renault
		Sauber		Wendlinger		Mercedes (?)

	    Anybody want to complete the list?

RE: .205

More complete list:

Team		Drivers			Engine
====		=======			======
McLaren		Andretti
Williams				Renault
Benetton	Patrese, Schumacher	Ford
Ferrari		Alesi, Berger
Lotus		Hakkinen, Herbert	Ford
Ligier		Comas			Renault
Sauber		Wendlinger

--PSW

    Anyone car to comment on Mansell's suitability for CART or Indy racing? 
    I don't pretend to be an expert on this form of racing, but I gather
    it's very tactical and comprises "mini" races or sprints between
    interruptions (flags or pace car).
    
    Even though I'm very much a Mansell fan, I wonder if the tactical
    nature would suit him.  Then again, the sprint nature no doubt would. 
    Would Senna be the best combination instead?  Or Prost's guile and
    Mansell's guts and speed combined?

RE: .205

Sauber are using the Ilmor engine - not a Mercedes. The designer is Swiss
(hence the connection), and I believe has had a certain amount of success in 
Indy cars with the Chevrolet engine.

The F1 engine has been developed on a shoe string with first March and latterly
Tyrrell money. With Sauber's money I expect it to be much more competitive and
reliable next season.

Cheers

Steve

    .208�Sauber are using the Ilmor engine - not a Mercedes. The designer is Swiss
    
    Sauber will use a new ILMOR engine, not the current V10 used by Tyrrell
    and March. There is a strong connection between Mercedes, Sauber and
    Ilmor since Mercedes used Team Sauber to race in WSCC and they bought
    the Ilmor engine when March found themselves broke. Do they hold Ilmor
    stock ? I don't know.
    
    Actually the Sauber F1 has been tested last week at Lurcy-L�vis, a
    small private circuit close to Magny-Cours in central France, with Karl
    Wendlinger at the wheel. No more info so far.

Lehto is strongly tipped to fill the second Sauber seat for their
debut F1 season

And RE: 205.

It's not that we HATE Prost -- it's only a sport you know -- Williams
have a lot to answer for. However, When Aston Villa signed
Dean Saunders he didn't insist on a clause that prevents John Barnes
or Paul Gascoigne joining the club at a later date.


Terry

    .210�have a lot to answer for. However, When Aston Villa signed
    .210�Dean Saunders he didn't insist on a clause that prevents John Barnes
    .210�or Paul Gascoigne joining the club at a later date.
    
    new F1 team, drivers ?
    
    :^)

    another rumour concerning McLaren future engine:
    
    - McLaren engine team managed by Osamu Goto (ex-Honda team mgr) designs
      a 3.5ltr engine for McLaren exclusive use

    .198�    Based on your note Patrick, and in the light of the Mansell retirement,
    .198�    could Mansell return to Ferrari? Senna to Ferrari if Alesi leaves.
    
    Why not ?
    
    We all know what a contract is worth those days ...

    So Prost has denied he has a Senna exclusion clause.
    
    I'll give him his due. He has this process totally under his control.
    
    Funny he never denied it earlier, e.g. pre-Mansell retirement
    announcement! 
    
    Dear Frank, I think you may have bitten off more than you can chew!
    
    JK

    Where is Senna going ?
    
    1. Senna said no to Ferrari. Even with a 27M$ offer, Senna refuse the
    offer, following John Barnard's advice that 1993 will be another weak
    year and that he should wait for 1994. 
    
    2. Senna said no to McLaren. This tends to indicate that Senna has lost
    faith in McLaren (engineers have left). This also indicates that
    McLaren will probably not have a good engine (a Judd ?) in 1993 or an
    engine that needs development (new engine).
    
    3. Senna keeps shouting that he can't drive for Williams (even for
    free) because a contractual clause with Prost (and Renault).
    
    McLaren:	no
    Williams:	no
    Ferrari:	no
    
    So where is he going ? 	(Brazil, I hear you say ?)

    .214�    So Prost has denied he has a Senna exclusion clause.
    
    Ha ha !
    
    The way I see it: Prost has a contract with Williams with no Senna
    exclusion clause. Prost has a contract with Renault. Renault has a
    contract with Williams that specifies that one driver must be a world
    champion and that Senna should not be present if above driver = Prost
    
    How about that ?
    
    Then Prost can say: I don't have any exclusion clause in my contract

Mansell was interviewed by ITN this lunchtime, whilst sitting in an
Onnassis-esque motor boat, at some boat show or other.

He said that he wont be in F1 NEXT season. (Not quite the retirement
we're all talking about -- more like a sabbatical?). However, Adelaide
would be his FINAL F1 race?, he said.

He confirmed that Newman-Haas had spoken to him, but so had others. The
interest shown in him by various parties was flattering, he added.

The interviewer also asked Mansells opinion on the strong rumours that
Martin Brundle would take his seat next year. Nigel thought that it was great
if it gave another British driver a GOOD chance.


And what did he have to say to many disappointed fans?

A long pause for thought was followed by; "I share their disappointment"


Terry B.

RE: .207 (Mansell's suitability for IndyCar racing)

I think, after a short period of adjustment, that he'd do extremely well.  The 
adjustment would be getting used to manual shifting again (he's been using 
semi-auto gearboxes since 1989), re-learning how to deal with turbos, and 
getting accustomed to the (relative to F1) heaviness and clumsiness of an 
IndyCar.

Full-course yellows will give him plenty to whine about.  He should be quite 
happy.  I don't think he'll have any problem with charging back up through the 
field if he gets caught by a tactical mistake during yellows or pit stops.  
He's shown himself very capable of doing that in F1.

--PSW

Of course, he'll have to get over his fear of pit stops, but
with a good CART team behind him, that should not be hard to do.

Dave

A BBC London and SE regional news prog interviewed Sir Nigel whilst
he was shopping in Harrods (I kid you not) following his earlier
water sport flirtation.

The same old questions were asked and answered. Finally, the interviewer
asked our Nige about Martin Brundle filling the vacated Williams seat.

Nigel was pleased that another British driver could be getting a good
drive. However, he warned Martin not to get too carried away with the
Williams talk, because Nigel knows of certain things going on
behind the scenes!!!

This surely means that Senna AND Prost could be Williams men next term,
and this gives credence to the reports that Prost now says there was
never any Senna exclusion clause.

phew.

Terry Again

Ironically, I recently had a discussion with Mike Coughlin (another subscriber to
this notes conference) about comparisons between CART drivers and F1 drivers.
Here is what we concluded:
	- Mansell is a lot like Michael Andretti.  He is the fastest on the
	  circuit, always experimenting with new technology, always ending up
	  with broken cars, and until recently, always making stupid mistakes
	  in the interest of speed.  [Note that Andretti's only championship
	  was in 1991 even though he has consistently scored well.  Sounds
	  familiar?] 
	- Bobby Rahal is like Prost.  Bobby is the "thinking" driver.  He is 
	  fast, seldom makes irrational mistakes, and is consistently a top
	  five scorer.  He has a strange way of accumulating valuable points
	  over the course of a season.  And, HE IS A HELL OF A NEGOTIATOR. 
	  [Bobby is now a 50% owwner and the sole driver of Hogan-Rahal
	  racing.  He is reputed to be negotiating for Honda's support - he
	  owns a Honda dealership - and has just bout the assets of Truesports
	  Racing.  Not bad for a first-year owner.]
We didn't have a Senna equivalent (maybe Emerson Fittipaldi or Rick Mears), and
we hope that Robbbie Gordon (Ford's/Kranefuss' new golden boy who has acquitted
himself very well to date) will be the Schumacher equivalent.  Any thoughts?

				-- Carlos.

P.S.	I wish someone would give Al Unser Jr. a drive in F1.  He is a good
	driver and the Andretti-Unser rivalry in F1 would be fun to watch and
	pretty marketable.  Thoughts?

    This morning's Guardian carries a "late report" that Senna will be the
    other driver at Williams next year and quotes Prost as saying he never
    had an exclusion clause. It also quotes Labatts as wanting Williams to
    get Mansell back.
    
    Other 93 bits from M News....
    
    Pacific are confirmed as a 1993 entrant. There is still an outside
    chance they will buy Fondmetal as well. Their car will have an
    auto-box, automatic ride height adjustment etc, and has been designed
    by Sergio Rinland
    
    Footwork have confirmed continued use of Mugen engines and are likely
    to retain both Alboreto and Suzuki
    
    Sauber apparently haven't come up with enough dosh for Ilmor
    exclusivity, so the 1992 engines will remain in use, tuned by Mader.
    
    Jordan are supposedly still using the Yamaha engine next year, but
    relacement of the existing unit with a badged Judd V10 is possible.
    Gugelmin is a possibility to stay, but he is also talking to Tyrrell
    

    Call me thick if you want, but what does CART stand for ??
    
    Barry
    

    re: 203
    
    	Dave,
    
    		you are mistaking diplomacy for politeness.
    
    			George Frost
    

    Frank William's press conference, originally scheduled for Tuesday, has
    been postponed to Thursday and replaced by a short press release (in
    today's press).

mixed bits

March:		Austrian driver and WSCC team manager Franz Konrad is 
		interested in acquiring the remainder of March

Paul Belmondo:	Paul is working hard on getting enough money to secure a F1 seat
		in 1993. Possible options: March, Footwork, ...

Ligier:		Frank Dernie is leaving Magny-Cours and could well go to 
		McLaren where very few engineers remain. John Davis, ex Lotus, 
		will be responsible for R&D
		Thierry Boutsen, who has strong links with Renault, would very
		much like to continue with Ligier now that the car is running 
		far better but Ligier have not renewed his contract. 
		Candidates for a Ligier seat: Alliot, Bernard and Dalmas 
		(Alliot and Dalmas have their name associated with Peugeot, 
		the archrival of Renault ...). 

Minardi:	Austrian engineer Gustav Brunner has left March to join Minardi
		Christian Fittipaldi will most likely drive again in 1993

Italia:		Chief engineer and team manager Paolo Stanzani (ex-Lamborghini
		Countach and Bugatti EB110 chief designer) is working on the
		new Lola based car. The new Italia will still be powered by the
		ill-fated Ferrari V12.
		Ivan Capelli is rumoured to have signed.

Williams:	Unser is still waiting to test the FW14. 
		Gil de Ferran, the new 1992 UK F3 champion will test the FW14B
		at Silverstone in October as a reward.
		The new FW15 will be tested very soon, most probably by Alain
		Prost (after the 1993 team set up is announced).
		Frank Williams will hold a press conference tomorrow Thu

Brabham:	Team went bankrupt. John McDonald has gone.
		What remains of the team (name ?) could be acquired by a new
		team based in Luxembourg. 

    The Williams FW15 was unveiled yesterday, Damon Hill took it for a spin
    (not literally!) round Silverstone. It is thought Mansell will test it
    after the next race.
    
    (��)Munce.

    re .221  I for one am glad that Michael Andretti got the jump on Al jr
    in going to F1.  Al reminds me too much of Senna(I don't want to start
    anything here, someone was just asking for opinions) as being a spoiled
    brat.  I hope that Michael does well and that there is an F1 race in
    the US soon.
    
    
    Dale

    Frank Williams press release blamed the loss of Mansel on lack of
    sponsorship by British companies. This was reported on BBC Radio.
    
    JK

    
    
    CART= Championship Auto Racing Teams
    
    hope this helps.
    Mike
    

    So what does this mean then....what championship ??
    
    Is it just a reference to F1 teams ??
    
    Barry
    

    
    INDY-CART is the premier American single seater championship (one race
    is the Indianapolis 500). Races take place in North America (and an odd
    one Australia!) only.
    
    Mark

    I believe that back when USAC (United States Auto Club) was the
    sactioning body of the Indy car series, the cars themselves were
    referred to as championship cars or just champ cars. The owners of the
    teams had a falling out of sorts with USAC and created their own
    sactioning body with the Indianapolis Motor Speeday, and hence the
    name CART or Championship Auto Racing Teams.
    
    And yes the "Championship" refers to just this series.
    
    Mike
    

>teams had a falling out of sorts with USAC and created their own
>sactioning body with the Indianapolis Motor Speeday, and hence the
    
Actually, the team owners formed CART and the Indianapolis 500 continued
to be sanctioned by USAC.  So, if you won the Indy 500 you were also the
USAC Champion, a 1 race series.  The CART series contained all the other
races as well as awarded points for the Indy 500.

Isn't there a CART topic in here somewhere?

Dave

CART is in the process of expanding beyond its strict American format.  It
currently has 1 race in Australia along with 2 in Canada.  It is negotiating 
for races in Brazil, Mexico, South Africa and Japan.  Sounds familiar?

There is also talk of CART going to 3.5L normally-aspirated engines (� la F1)
and there being less fuel stops.  This could become a competing series to the
predominantly European F1 series and Bernie Ecclestone is supposedly a strong
supporter of this direction.

This is my last comment on this topic because I am sure that there is a CART
topic in this notesfile.  I don't want to clutter this topic.

				-- Carlos.

According to CEEFAX...

Alain Prost has said that he is still undecided about his plans for next
season. Nigel Mansell's claims that he had been commited to Williams for
some months was incorrect.

He has said that he is 60 to 70% decided about racing next year.

He conceded that Frank Williams wanted to team Prost with Mansell for
1993, but Ayrton Senna's offer to drive for nothing had jeapordised those
plans.


your tv viewer,

Terry B

The 60-70% figure relates to Prost (or that's how I understood it on
French radio this morning). Prost also said that any team with him and
Senna in it would be at war from day one ...

    .235�There is also talk of CART going to 3.5L normally-aspirated engines (� la F1)
    .235�and there being less fuel stops.  This could become a competing series to the
    .235�predominantly European F1 series and Bernie Ecclestone is supposedly a strong
    .235�supporter of this direction.
    
    3500cc n-a engines (good ones) produce 700+bhp. CART and F1 cars still
    have a big gap: weight. 
    
    Minimum weight in CART is 750kg
    Minimum weight in F1   is 500kg
    
    This is a BIG difference ! 

    .229�    Frank Williams press release blamed the loss of Mansel on lack of
    .229�    sponsorship by British companies. This was reported on BBC Radio.
    
    Full text published in Auto-Hebdo.
    
    Frank Williams is scheduled to speak TODAY.

    Are you tuning into this Partick. When is the press conference or
    release?
    
    			George Frost

    .240�    Are you tuning into this Partick. When is the press conference or
    .240�    release?
    
    Don't know. Just read that the press conference originally scheduled
    for Tuesday was postponed to Thu 17-Sep. I'll check with usual sources.

    Come on you informed sources.....
    
    What happened at the Mansell fans demo in Didcot?
    
    What did Frank say in his statement?
    
    Whassagoinon?
    
    JK

�     Come on you informed sources.....
    
    Sorry. Not got the Sun to hand! :^)
    
    Mark

    Sky TV ran a short piece on the episode.
    
    Seems that the Mirror or whatever offered free seats on a coach (to the
    demo) for the first 300 to turn up.
    I quote the reporter on the bus while it was cruising down the road on
    its way - "we are still waiting for the other 270"
    
    The rest of the comments were absolute rubbish.....from the 50 odd fans
    and 60 odd reporters alike.
    
    			George Frost

    oops so I did.
    
    		GLF

    
    Just heard on the TV news... Nigel Mansell has signed for Paul Newmans
    Indy team.
    
    Is that *the* Paul Newman?

    If thats the case, it may sway me to get satellite as I doubt the Beeb
    will televise it.
    
    Roy

As in the Paul Newman who makes salad dressing??



	Ian

    Mansell signed for $3 million. Newman/Haas team...Newman as in film
    star etc...
    
    Significantly no news of Williams - Jason Hill is favoured to race
    beside Prost.
    Prost is not confirmed.
    Still Brundle as a good (also) bet for co-driver with Prost.
    
    		George Frost

Frank Williams press conference (abstracts)

Q. Prost and Senna for 1993 ?

A. I think that sucha combination would be 1. difficult to obtain and 2.
   very difficult to manage

Q. Prost and Brundle ?

A. Nothing has been signed. I cannot be more specific for the time being. An
   official announcement will be made shortly

Q. What about Brundle, Hill, other british drivers ?

A. These are drivers I would seriously consider BUT, for financial reasons, the
   1993 Williams drivers are likely to be NON-british

Q. Any comments on Mansell ?

A. Nigel has moved too fast. But I respect his decision. I wish him good luck.
   No doubt he will electrify the US championship.

Q. Mansell and Senna gone, will F1 be boring ?

A. On the contrary. In the absence of the stars the championship will be 
   more interesting and more open. 

    .247�    Is that *the* Paul Newman?
    
    The PAUL NEWMAN who appears in 'The sting' and plenty more successful
    movies is also a very active race driver. He has raced Le Mans for many
    years.
    
    For INDYCAR racing he has teamed up with Carl HAAS, the long time LOLA
    agent in the USA. Carl HAAS is famous for having provided cars to
    several F1 stars including: Jackie Stewart, Patrick Tambay, ...
    
    Yes, this is the PAUL NEWMAN.
                                                                   

    
    Re Paul Newman.
    
    � He has raced Le Mans for many years.
    
    Assuming you mean he raced there on many occassions, I think he only
    actually raced there once. 1979.
    
    Re Mansell in Indy.
    
    I just hope he doesn't end up the same way Piquet did (or worse!). Get
    some oval practice in before the racing starts, Nigel!
    
    Re TV coverage.
    
    SKY Sports (the one you're SUPPOSED to pay for) cover MOST Indy car
    races live (usually starting between 8PM and Midnight, depending on
    location!), whilst the free Screensport channel shows highlights of
    most races a week or so after they happen.
    
    ITV also show (in some regions) Indy car racing, but it appears to be
    running a YEAR behind at the moment! Maybe Mansell's involvement will
    lead them to pick up next season's races? Maybe Channel 4 will show
    them?
    
    Mark

    Radio 5 had an interview with "Del Boy" Warwick on Saturday. He gave a
    very balanced view of Mansell's situation, saying that while Mansell
    had done extremely well this season, he had not paid enough tribute to
    the car, and also that the 3 top stars were basically pricing
    themselves out of the market. The most interesting comment was the
    announcer before the interview saying that Warwick was "as good as
    certain" to be back in F1 next season. I knew he was talking to Arrows,
    andbody heard anything else?
    
    Paul

�	YUPPY::PATEMAN "TOCA - Take Our Cocaine Abroad" >>>
    
    ;-)
    
    The only comment I've seen about the BMW team 'problems'.
    
    Anyone care to enter any known facts (in another topic, I guess) ?
    
    J.R.

    In this morning's L'Equipe, bad Frank Williams again stated that a
    Senna-Prost combo was a possibility. This seems to put the lie to
    Senna's ravings about a nominal exclusion clause in little Al's
    contract. Maybe FW is just trying to save face for his star-to-be. Of
    course he might also be worried at the prospect of neither of his cars
    ever getting past the first corner...
    
    It seems that the chances of seeing that team lineup on the track next
    year are something like 50.95% for and 49.05% against. Hang on, I think
    I'm confusing headline issues here...
    
    Salut,
    Ed. 

RE: Senna and Prost at Williams -- See 252.

Clearly Franks comments suggest that, from a racing point of view, it
would be nice -- but will it really work?

In the interview he gave at the weekend, he gave the impression that a
similar scenario existed with regard to Prost and Mansell being the
1993 driver line-up.

Apparently, Mansell was informed at Barcelona that Prost was likely to be
a Williams driver next year (Frank made no secret of the fact that it
was at the behest of Renault that Prost was in the seat, that Frank
wasn't going to risk upsetting them and losing the engine deal)


Terry B

	Gosh what a lot of new notes in the last week.

	Mansells departure is certainly for many reasons, but I think
	a major factor not much spoken of is the lack of desire
	of major sponsors (mainly Renault) to be associated with him.
	Apart from not giving the car/engine due credit, the image
	of those flag waving, beer swilling morons is a million miles
	away from a glass of wine with Nicole at the Caf�. This year
	he's driven surprisingly sensibly whilst his acceptability
	rating has slumped.

	One bit of news I read which doesn't seem to have made it
	here is that Prost is talking to Ron Dennis. No hard news of
	exactly what about.

	Ron however needs a driver and an engine. Prost is a driver and 
	is pally with some people who have an engine. Just one more
	possibility.

	-John

    If Ron were to get both the Renault engine and Prost, would that
    signify Frank loosing his engines.  interesting rumors!
    
    Of course Michaels' driving style would surely come out over Prost
    in most races if they were partners, but then again Michael would
    probably get the lesser of the 2 equal engines ;-)

                   <<< Note 1830.259 by LARVAE::LINCOLN_J >>>
                          -< Could run till January >-

�	Mansells departure is certainly for many reasons, but I think
�	a major factor not much spoken of is the lack of desire
�	of major sponsors (mainly Renault) to be associated with him.

With respect, I think you are quite wrong. I'll bet Renault are seething
that they won't be able to fully capitalize, on Mansell being world champ, 
with a fully fledged "Renault engine powers the World Champ...." campaign 
and such-like. The loss of potential advertizing revenue with Nigel's 
untimely departure must be colossal.

It seems that a lot of people are under the illusion that Prost is still 
the number one choice for Williams. He may have been at one stage, but 
as 'The Times' put it last week, "Williams [Frank] was left with a driver
[Prost] he no longer wanted". 

Apparently, events succeeding Prost's contract conspired to render him surplus
to requirements. Just think if the '93 line-up was Senna & Mansell...........
....oh what tangled web we weaved......

mike.

    RE: .257 - - I love Ed's reference to the French little Al, or should I
    say the McLaren little Al versus the American little Al from USAC or
    should I say the Lotus little Al-to-be.  Snicker snicker.
    
    Bob  :-)
    

Heard on the radio this morning that Mansell says that Prost put the
spoke in the wheel of his plans to drive for Williams next year ...

    
    Renault ARE said to be very upset at Mansell's departure from the team.
    
    Mark

    Also heard on the radio this morning (French radio).
    Mansell claims that he has been the object of a conspiracy at Williams
    to get him out.
    
    What is this about a book that he has published?
    
    		George Frost

    .264�    Renault ARE said to be very upset at Mansell's departure from the team.
    
    Definitely ! Renault wanted to capitalize on Mansell's title. That's
    why I wrote earlier that everyone thinks Mansell did a poor job at
    negotiating. He could probably obtain what he wanted and more but Frank
    is a hell of a negotiator ... Surprinsingly enough it appears that
    Senna cracked too.

    L'Equipe this morning predicts that Al Unser will be Prost's team mate
    at Williams.
    
    I usually don't trust l'Equipe but we'll see.

re .266

  I dont reckon you can call him a hell of a negotiator if he
  loses the person he is negotiating with.

  From the interview on BBC Grandstand on the weekend it doesnt sound
  like they were negotiating at all, they werent even talking.

    A few remarks on our divas.
    
    I believe that putting them all in the same ballpark is a little
    exagerated: Prost has some differentiating factors:
    
    - he is the only one to have had to actually take a sabatical. For
    drivers with huge egos, obviously very keen on driving (if not, why go
    through all the hassle of getting a good drive), he is the only one to
    have paid the penalty of being left on the way-side - so far...
    
    - Prost was fired! He was also let go very late in the season, when all
    the seats were taken, and it was too late to find another. By contrast,
    Mansell has retired (twice), and turned down a drive for Williams,
    when, according to his own words, everything he wanted was accepted.
    Senna has turned down just about everybody, including a *huge* contract
    with Ferrari. Now jokeying for position is one thing, but when you turn
    down huge contracts, one stands little ground of coming back to
    complain later on.
    
    - Mansell's whining about his treatment by Williams seems a little
    far-fetched. The break of contract seems nasty, but remember, but that
    is only when we are judging it by our own standards. If my boss came
    back to me and told me someone wanted my job, so would I please take a
    pay cut, I would be quite upset. But the situation is quite different:
    halfing my salary would directly affect my standard of living, and my
    ability to feed my family. This is hardly the case for Mansell - I
    don't think accepting William's reduced offer would have him standing
    in the supermarket, drooling over the piece of steak he can no longer
    afford! Hey, these guys make more in a year (on salary alone) than we
    will ever make in our whole life. So don't complain too much, Nige...
    
    - You play the game by the rules. Drivers have little regrets in
    breaking contracts when something else comes along, so why should teams
    feel more concerned about changing their minds when circumstances
    change? Loyalty is a two-way street. Sure, I expect my employer to
    stick with me (not a very safe assumption these days), but I will also
    stick with my employer, to a similiar extend, and not just quit because
    my officemate said something unnice about me (besides, it's unfair, he
    got a better workstation than I did, just because he speaks Italian).
    
    - Salaries for drivers have risen very rapidly these few years -
    considerably faster than inflation. Those are due to circumstances of
    the moment. If you accept that to happen, well, you should also accept
    a similar downward flexibility when circumstances change. Right now,
    the high number of current world champions looking for a drive, and the
    higher importance of the car over the driver are pushing the driver
    salaries back down some - well, that's part of the game. They didn't
    complain when salaries went from 7 digits to 8, did they.
    
    
    Well, enough of the soap box, back to normal work...
    
    JP

    
    I know times have changed but I read something this week that maybe
    todays "Superstars" should take a look at...
    
    When Jackie Stewart worked with Ken Tyrrell there was never a signed
    contract in existence between the two.. 
    
    Rob

    Someone mentioned that Williams (the team) will get the right to use
    # 1 on their car.
    
    Just suppose they'd signed both Prost and Senna (in alphabetical
    order!), who would Frank Williams give the # 1 to?
    
    Discuss................
    
    JK
    
    p.s. I wonder what George will propose (-:

re .269

As I've mentioned before, salary was only an indicator of the earner's worth.
When Mansell was subsequently told he was worth less (which is nearly as bad
as being told you are worthless) to the team he got fed up and cleared off to
Indy Car racing. Less pay indeed, but an environment free (to a greater extent)
from the political shenanigans of F1.

mike.

    
    If (as seems inevitable now, but who'd stake their life savings on it?)
    Mansell doesn't drive in F1 next season, it would seem to make sense to
    either drop the number 1 for next season or let the runner up
    (Patrese/Schumacher/Anyone else in contention?) to carry it.
    
    Mark

    re .271  Don't run #1, or give it to the #1 driver of the team!
    
    re .272  Totally disagree that CART or NASCAR or INDY have less
    political shenanigans....probably more but at an inter team level
    rather than inter driver level (of course that is translated in the USA
    as healthy rivalry).
    
    			George Frost

	The arrangement that Piquet was said to have of a small retainer
	and pay for points seems to me the way in which the GP teams
	should organise themselves. It would save a lot of disputes and
	if the teams paid the same rate for both drivers the the one 
	gaining most points would benefit most, avoiding the sort of
	disputes we now seem to have.

	Since minor teams score few points they could almost as well 
	afford to pay the same rate as the big boys and so on through 
	the echelon. The teams could also go to their sponsors and
	agree sponsorship on a results basis too (they may be doing 
	this already). Sane, sensible, equitable and understandable but
	will it catch on.

	As regards Williams and Renault being distraught over Mansells
	departure I can only paraphrase Mandy Rice Davies "Well they
	would say that wouldn't they".


	-John

	PS. I would think that Mansell should do extremely well in CART 
	if he keeps off the walls.

    There was report in our local paper last week that William's commercial
    business manager had quit as a result of the Mansell decision.
    
    The implication was that he was a strong Mansell supporter and agreed
    with Nigel.
    
    I'll try and dig it out tonight and type it in tomorrow.
    
    JK

    
    Can't remember whether I've already reported it, but early last week
    the Renault Technical Director was quoted in France as being very
    unhappy about the Mansell outcome.
    
    Colin

    Of course, but then he has to say that.
    
    If this last tit-bit pans out true, I for one am very happy.
    Patrese deserves a very good crack at the F1 whip in '93. He has
    (barring one or two abberations) done a very good supporting job
    for Mansell this season.
    
    		George Frost

    .226�	The new FW15 will be tested very soon, most probably by Alain
    
    The FW15 that has appeared recently is a slight evolution of the
    successful FW14, built to 1992 rules.
    
    The real FW15 will appear publicly much later (probably to keep its
    shape secret as long as possible). That's the one that should be tested
    by Prost. 

    According to todays press, McLaren are reported to be attempting a
    buyout of Ligier and its Renault engines. 
    
    Honda are also quoted over their most unhappy relationship with McLaren 
    this season and claim that they would consider a return to F1 if they
    had a comeptitive chassis.

    
    More rumours suggest that Prost could finish up at McLaren 
    and that Senna and Brundle would be at Williams. 
    
    If McLaren did get the Renault engines, via Ligier, that would
    suit Renault down to the ground. Two top teams both with their
    engines and probably the top two remaining drivers driving
    against each other.
    
    

    RE .280
    
    Honda should not have any problems to develop more lighter and powerful
    engin if they wanted to.
    
    If current V12 is too heavy and thirsty, then they shout bring their 
    OVAL CYLINDER technology into F1 engine and build in-line 6 with 48
    valves (8 valves/cyl).
    It will be lighter and narrower than current V12 and shoud have atleast
    same horse power.
    
    Honda is already using oval V4 32 valve engine in motor cycle racing.
    They are even selling street motor cycles with 750cc V4/32 valve engins.
    This 750cc street bike engin is already producing 125 bhp there.
    
    RE.281
    
    Didn't Honda do 1. 2. 3. 4. finish once?
    May Renault's turn next year.
    
    
    Mitz
    
     

    re -2.
    
    	Reading autosport yesterday, there was a bit on the state of
    williams. If you read between the lines there maybe quite a bit of
    truth behind -2. Basiclly Frank williams is saying that prost has a
    contract available to him for next year, suggesting that its not
    signed, it then goes on to say that if prost goes to another team
    the contract at williams is always an option. The thick plotens.
    
    
    Garry

    re .281
    
    McLaren does not suffer power problems. Their problem is keeping the
    power on the track i.e. the chassis.
    
    Until McLAren come along with a new car, sharing engines with Williams
    will not prove a thing.
    
    Ligier is shaky because the French President Mitterand is shaky. Of
    course Mitterand does not actively support Ligier with francs direct
    from the French coffers, but indirect support and being very chummy
    (Guy Ligier) with the head of state, does help.
    
    Pity. They have everything to make them a great team. Perhaps that is
    what Ron Dennis has noticed?
    
    		George frost

    .281�    If McLaren did get the Renault engines, via Ligier, that would
    .281�    suit Renault down to the ground. Two top teams both with their
    
    Hang on. Remember that Renault DO NOT SUPPLY engines to Ligier. Old
    Renault engines are supplied to a 3rd party company (like Mader vs
    Ford) who rents a batch of RS3B (and now some RS3C) engines to Ligier.
    
    Buying Ligier does not buy any RS3's. Besides, as indicated by Ligier
    yesterday, this idea seems to be just another journalist projection.
    Both Ron and Guy have denied any such talks.
    
    Again, that's as much as they tell us .... FWIW

    Guy Ligier yesterday denied all rumors about a possible buyout of his
    team by Mclaren. There again, just how credible is Guy Ligier?
    
    Salut,
    Ed.

    .282�    If current V12 is too heavy and thirsty, then they shout bring their 
    
    Current V12 is too long NOT too heavy. In fact the only reason they
    switched from V10 to V12 was to save weight. The V10 was (still is)
    heavy (but less thirsty and more torquy).
    
                               
    
    .282�    OVAL CYLINDER technology into F1 engine and build in-line 6 with 48
    
    This is ruled out by FISA. Some Honda (and others ?) engines used that
    technology several years ago (although there was no official evidence
    of this). 
    
    But the rules are clear: cylinders must be cylindric (sp?) and you may
    only have 12 of them maximum.
                                                                     

    Confirmation
    
    Heinz-Harald FRENTZEN, the 3rd member of the Mercedes junior team
    (together with Schumacher and Wendlinger) has signed with March for 1
    year (1993).

    Patrick Faure, GM of Renault and Big Boss of Renault Sport is present
    at Estoril. Several people expect the Williams-Renault announcement to
    be the reason for the trip.

Prost's confirmation at Williams on Sunday must count as the anti-climax of
year in F1. Hunt the Shunt commented on Sunday that Mansell should have stayed
at Williams to compete on equal terms with Prost because he believed Mansell to
be much improved and now the better all round driver.

Dave.

    Ceefax today has Herbert moving into the frame at Williams with Lotus
    getting a lot of dosh to help their financial problems.
    
    That would be a real shame in some ways, breaking up the best pairing
    in F1. But it would be great for Johnny to have a topline car.
    
    Paul

    Senna talking a lot of horseshit on Saturday and Sunday as is his wont.
    
    John Watson mentioned that Senna is the laughing stock of the milieu at
    the moment and is being likened to a very spoiled little boy who wants
    to play with everbody else's toys.
    
    Calling Prost a coward and unprofessional will not help Senna's cause
    one whit. 
    
    Prost said that had he not gone to Williams next season, he would have
    gone to McLaren. He questioned Senna's choice of leaving
    McLaren....frankly so do I considering its good (relatively) showing in
    the latter part of this season.
    
    Last point from Prost. He let slip that the co-driver slot will be
    filled from a list of four currently being negotioted.
    
    		George Frost

Apparently Mansell's contract next season is not being paid for by Newman/Haas.
It is CART itself who are paying - they saw the opportunity for publicity
(current F1 champion driving in the series) as being too good to pass up.

Steve

    Re a few back,
    
    Lotus and Herbert are now denying any Williams connection - he'll
    probably sign tomorrow ;-)
    
    Paul

    Senna seems to be very upset at the "french Connection" which has Prost
    at Williams and him out in the cold. Autosport quotes him as saying he
    would be driving with Williams if he was French...
    
    I for one would love to see Williams with 2 top drivers.

    I agree that a Mansell-Prost lineup at Williams would have been great,
    and apparently it was on the cards until Hungary, when our favorite
    spoilt brat started blathering on about driving for nothing.
    
    Someone should put some tape over Senna's big mouth so we all can take
    a rest from his lunatic ravings. Calling Prost a coward is unbelievably
    stupid and immature. Also, his statement that the team manager should
    be alone in choosing his drivers stinks of hypocrisy after the way
    Senna effectively barred Derek Warwick's entry to Lotus at the end of
    '85. Remember how Senna personally intervened to veto Warwick and
    replace him with the valliant but modest Dumfries.
    
    If Senna takes a year off, I for one will be quite relieved. The
    prospect of him trying to stuff Prost into the armco at every race is
    quite frightening.
    
    Salut,
    Ed.

	Well I had to smile at the post race conference where Ayrton
	("I'll only race if I can be in the best car and what's more
	i'll do it for nothing") Senna was lambasting Prost for getting
	the Williams drive and being applauded by Nigel ("I'll only 
	race if I can be in the best car and have loadsa dosh too")
	Mansell. At least Gerhardt ("I know my place and I'll take the 
	Ferrari dosh thankyou") Berger managed to keep a straight face.

	-John

This Herbert business is interesting.

Before Our Nige made his hasty retreat from F1, I was fantasizing (!) that
the current world champ may even go to Lotus. OK, I know THEY couldn't
afford him, but the car is improving, the management know him and
respect him, etc.

Johnny has said that he isn't thinking about the rumours, but if the
chance of a Williams drive came up he would jump at it.

Meanwhile, did I hear talk of Brundle and Blundell going to Ligier?
Wasn't there talk in earlier notes of McLaren 'buying' Ligier out?

And is it confirmed that McLaren WILL have Renaults next year?



Terry B

This morning it has been confirmed that Herbert is staying at Lotus.

McLaren getting Renault engines isn't simple:

Firstly, why do they want them in particular? Answer: Senna has made it a
condition for staying with the team for 1993!

- Ligier have a contract for Renault engines until 1994. 
- Renault cannot support any more teams. 
- If McLaren want the engines then they will have to 
	o Agree a purchase from Ligier
	o Agree things with Renault - A Renault spokesman said that of
	  course they would be very interested in having McLaren but that
	  nothing had been discussed.

So far, things are very straightforward - I'm sure that TAG/Marlboro can
stump up the readies (though not the $40m that Ligier is asking for!).

Now for the sting - the difficult thing to sort out is the specification and
maintenance of the engines. Ligier's Renault engines are maintained by a third
party and are always one revision behind Williams. for example now that
Williams are running the RS4, Ligier are getting the lastest RS3...

Can you imagine Prost having the Renault mechanics and latest engines and Senna
not having the same? NO WAY! Therefore, Uncle Ron must be doing some parallel
negotiating with Ligier and Renault to make sure that his prodigee gets the new
toys that he wants...

Things are definitely happening on this front - Dennis and Ligier ate out
together last night...

Steve
Steve

    Renault thing.
    
    Patrick Faure, President of Renault Sport, who was at Estoril for the
    Prost-Williams announcement, said:
    
    - we have a partnership with Williams
    - we have a contract with Ligier (Through 3rd party)
    - we can't supply more, no 3rd team
    
    The McLaren-Ligier 'discussions' are journalist projections. Both Ron D
    and Ligier Dany Hindenoch denied having engaged talks. Now, with plenty
    of $$$$ from McLaren Intl + Marlboro + whatever ... Guy Ligier might be
    tempted.

    Williams No2 driver. Frank indicated that he had 4 names on his short
    list.
    
    Candidates: Brundle, Warwick, Comas, Unser, Patrese and ...
    
    ... Al�si who, strangely, has been demoted to No2 status last week.
    Very very strange move. 

    Re -1
    
    I had thought of Alesi too. My 4 would have been Brundle, Patrese,
    Unser and Alesi with Warwick and Herbert as very long shots.
    
    Alesi cannot be happy being N02 to Berger and despite driving the
    wheels off the Ferrari does not look particularly happy with his 93
    prospects. 
    
    However, and all French team might please Renault & Elf but would be a
    PR disaster for Williams.
    
    Paul

    This 93 seasons look like a soap opera to me.

    There's seems to be only one team that can win the championship, and
    this team (Williams) will have only a first class driver (Prost). 
    Mansell and Senna seemed to have been vetoed by Prost (that's why he was 
    called a coward by Senna). Mansell left F1 and Senna will either have to 
    stay away from F1 or drive for...

    Let me congratulate Prost for an ingenious political strategy for 93 and
    also for probably his fourth title. This F1 business is getting dirtier
    and dirtier.

    Disappointed with the last events,
    
    RUI 

I saw Prost's comments on the Alesi's position at Ferrari next year.
The TF1 anchorman asked him why Ferrari would make Berger #1. His short reply
was "To unbalance the driver who has been made #2"

I can believe that Prost would want Alesi side by side. Every week they are
interviewd on the start grid together, and every week Alesi says how Prost is
his guru, and how well they get on. Alesi goes to Prost regularly in
Switzerland as well. 

Interesting to see what happens here...

Steve

    With all the rumors of Alesi going to Williams, any ideas on who else
    will sign with Ferrari.  Could we possible see Senna finally agree to
    the $'s and head over to Ferrari?
    
    JP

RE: .293

Who is saying that CART are paying the bill for Nigel Mansell at Newman/Haas?  
That is absurd for two reasons:  (1) The CART Board of Directors are the 
IndyCar team managers.  There is no way that they would vote to give one team, 
especially one of the top teams like Newman/Haas, a big potential competitive 
advantage.  (2) In the U.S., there is little publicity value in being F1 
champion.  Most IndyCar fans don't care too much about F1.  Most non-IndyCar 
auto racing fans probably don't even know what F1 is.  Now, if the reigning 
Winston Cup stock car champion had moved to IndyCars, that would be a different 
matter, publicity-wise.

--PSW

    RE: .-1
    
    I don't think they're trying to attract Indycar fans to CART. I think
    they're trying to attract F1 fans to CART. Therefore Mansell is a good
    buy (and goodbye as well!)
    
    JK

RE: -.2

Paul,
	I only recount things that I read/hear on the television. French
television (TF1) recounted this during the broadcast of the Portuguese Grand
Prix on Sunday. 

	-.1 is quite correct - CART is trying to attract European F1 viewers.
They want to take CART overseas. Apparently they've had races in Australia
recently - but want more. There is an unspoken rivalry between them and FISA.

[This next bit is a personal view, nothing that I've read!]
I expect a satellite channel (e.g. Sky) to pick up the rights to the races and
to milk Mansell's publicity value for all it is worth. Earlier they did
something similar with the World Cup cricket series in Australia - and picked
up hundreds of thousands of new subscribers. Mansell is very popular across
Europe and would pull in many new viewers.

Steve

    Prost said that the Williams Renault was the best F1 car he had ever
    driven. He also said that he thought to be running at about 60% of his
    potential. He set the fastest time of the day, for what it's worth...
    
    I totally fail to understand Ferrari "demoting" Al�si to #2 spot. I
    have a soft spot for young Jean. He seems to have given everything this
    year under very difficult circumstances. His performance in the wet on
    slicks at Magny-Cours - for which he was subsequently lambasted by
    Ferrari management - was memorable. IMHO he's one of the hottest
    prospects in F1. Could the hand of Lauda be behind this
    incomprehensible tactic?
    
    Yesterday, Al�si matched his qualifying time for last weekend's race on
    1993 tyres. He was however running more wing than will be authorized,
    next year. Quite a performance nevertheless.
    
    Salut,
    Ed.

    Hi RUI,
    
    	One question - would you welcome a driver onto your team that you 
    		       had previously fallen out with in no uncertain terms?
    		       (whatever the reasons)
    
    	Second question - If you had been called a coward for the above
    			  refusal, do you not have a right to reply?
    
    	At a personal level, both of the above would strengthen my resolve 
    	to keep the other driver away from me. 
    
    	I see it as sensible not dirty. However, I agree with you F1 is 
    	becoming dirtier when drivers resort to name calling through the 
    	the media.
    
    		George Frost
    
     

    See note .66
    
    and the preceeding .40 through .61 for the Alesi discussion
    
                                   George Frost

	Re: .309

	Which make of 1993-spec tyres was being used? Do Goodyear have
the 15inch moulds?

    From MN, a few 1993 rumours....
    
    Williams
    
    Patrese is back in the frame on Head's say so because of his testing
    ability. Hakkinen is also on the list, but Lotus are saying no-way.
    
    Ligier
    
    Brundle & Blundell were there last week, but Brundle is keeping
    Williams as his No1 choice. Blundell looks a good bet if McLaren buy
    Ligier and use it as some sort of Junior team. Ford HBs would be the
    likely replacement for the McLaren bound Renaults, courtesy of Benetton
    who want to keep McLaren away from their Fords!
    
    BMS
    
    Alboreto and Badaur are drifting to the top of the option list. This
    would probably send P-LM to Minardi with Fittipaldi
    
    Footwork
    
    Suzuki stays put, with Del Boy the most likely partner.
    
    Pacific Racing
    
    talking at Estoril with Naspetti, Jorde Gene and Cosworth
    
    Jordan
    
    Strong rumours of Yamaha's demise and Fast Eddie being left engineless
    
    Tyrrell
    
    Supposed to have done an engine deal with Brian Hart for a V10.
    Credence leant to this by Ilmor saying they'll only support Sauber and
    one other next year, and with another Merc Toyboy (Frentzen) heading
    for March......
    
    Mika Salo, Hakinnen's bete noire from F3 days, is actively looking for
    a '93 seat to get out of the japanese F3000 backwater.
    
    Strong rumours of abandonning of compulsory pit stops as they are
    considered too contrived for us sophisticated Europeans.
    
    Honda rumoured to be considering a return in 94 with a Honda-Honda.
    
    Who knows? Who cares? Well - we all seem to - 313 replies and the
    season is still 6months away!!
    
    paul
    
    

    Any news folks on the FW15 testing at Paul Ricard today?
    
    I considered playing hookey, sleeping rough and making an illegal entry
    to the circuit last night (with long lens and binoculars). It is just
    an hour away from me.
    
    Uncertainty put me off..what if the story was another F1 ruse?
    
    		George Frost

RE: -2

Any idea where Capelli goes? Apart from home...

And if Senna takes a sabbatical, maybe we should start a 1994 note now,
so that we can speculate on his return...


Terry B

    1993 will be a toss up, IMO. The new rules throw a lot of stuff out the
    door. The new FW15 is all but useless. Williams will learn from it, but
    all the teams will be a relatively even footing. Well, sorta. I believe
    the top teams of 92 will be the top teams of 93 simply because they
    represent the highest level of professionsalism, have the best drivers
    and the most $$$. But to expect Williams to be AS dominant. I'm not
    ready to accept that. I believe that Williams, Benetton and Lotus will
    run hard. Ron Dennis WILL come up with an engine package and will be up
    their. If Fast Eddie gets a decent engine we msy see Jordan return. But
    there sre to many unknowns at this point. These proposed rule changes
    are far from simple or sublte. They will affect the overall package in
    such a way that much work will have to be done - and quickly - over the
    winter. Revised 92-spec cars ar enot likely to be worth much. Williams
    may be at a DIS-adantage having put so much into the FW15 only to have
    it nullified.
    
    I'm still looking for good things from Ferrari. Berger is a more likely
    #1 with his greater maturity and experience. He's a good tester. Alesi,
    now demoted to #2 has something more to go for. Lauda has the team
    headed in the right direction and John Barnard just might pull off a
    good design (if he too isn't too far along in an "old design").
    
    Hey, from an engineering point of view this is good! I'm not convinced
    the racing will be any better. Hope I'm wrong. But it's fun to watch.
    
    Paul
    
    
     

    First off Paul, the latter part of this season has in my opinion been
    very good from a racing perspective.
    The spectator has had a good look at the cars, their drivers and their
    potential, albiet at the expense of the Williams team running away with
    it.
    But that is a given. We all knew that Williams would walk it, the
    suspense rested in the fact that three other cars are shooting for the
    nexr best slot and to my mind that has made for a good season - not
    excellent, but good.
    
    The key for '93 in the technology developed by Williams. Graft the
    active suspension package on almost any current F1 car and the
    difference will be astonishing. The unsung heros of Williams are the
    developers of the system. I hope that they get a piece of the pie for
    surely they deserve it.
    As noted earlier the FW15 appears only to be an FW14 in disguise -
    slightly different shell on a base car. It seem (and this from the
    'informed' sources in this notes file and the media) that the '93
    Williams will be somewhat different.
    The inference is that the reliability of individual component parts of
    the car will not change radically...it will be the reliability and
    performance of the 'system' that will need tweaking for '93. 
    That work has started.
    
    Then there is the rest....who are not yet at the active ride stage and
    will need another season or two to get there.
    
    So for me its a Williams season next year with the other teams catching
    up in dribs and drabs.
    
    		George Frsot

    Estoril - 29-Sep-1992
    ---------------------
    
    1992 spec cars with 1992 tyres
    
    Prost 	Williams FW14B	1'16"07
    Blundell	McLaren		1'17"07
    Berger	McLaren		1'18"44
    De Cesaris  Tyrrell		1'19"80
    Herbert	Lotus		1'20"20
    
    1992 spec cars with 15" rear tyres
    
    Al�si	Ferrari		1'16"92
    Schumacher	Benetton	1'17"10
    Damon Hill	Williams	1'17"26
    Martini	Italia		1'17"62
    De Cesaris	Tyrrell		1'17"87
    Boutsen	Ligier		1'18"14
    Naspetti	March		1'18"44
    Berger 	McLaren		1'18"66
    Herbert     Lotus		1'18"67
    Alboreto	Footwork	1'18"75
    Morbidelli	Minardi		1'19"48
    Lammers	March		1'20"21
    Gachot	Venturi		1'20"23
    Gugelmin	Jordan 		1'21"40
    Lavaggi	March		1'21"82
    Badoer	Italia		1'24"83

    .318�    Al�si	Ferrari		1'16"92
    
    This was achieved with narrow tyres. Interesting to compare with his
    qualifying time for the GP: 1'16"88.

As ususal, I wouldn't read too much into any of these times. I't so hard to know 
exactly WHAT the team was testing when the time was set. It is curious that 
Alesi's time was close to his 92 qualifying time. But the there are more 93 spec 
changes that the 15" tire rule. Taken together, the new cars will be differect.

George, I see your point. All those advanced systems that have made the 92 
Williams the class act it is will probably move over to the new car. I that 
resepect, Williams have fewer things to contend with to build a 93 spec machine, 
but they are the kinds of things that can cause agrevation - suspension geometry, 
weight balance, and, that black art, aerodynamics. Still, they must be farther 
along than most.

I sure would like to see Benetton and Lotus contnue to advance, and I believe 
we'll see major improvement from Ferrari. Will it be a WIllaims walk, George? I 
hope not.

Paul

No, don't read too much into these times...

...yesterday, Damon Hill was clocking times quicker than that of
three times world champ Prost. But, Alain is getting used to the car, etc.


Terry


According to an Autosport tip this week, the Williams lead car will
carry number one next season.

    My feeling is that Benneton and Lotus need the new engines put into
    shape fast. It appears to me that both cars really do not have the
    power of the McLaren or the Williams.
    McLaren ran on Brute force this season (hats off to Senna) and Renault
    ran on finesse (hats off to Head).
    
    Ferrari ran on hot gas this year and in retrospect (although the season
    is not over yet) the current car is a pig with that aerodynamic 'tray'
    under the monocoque.
    
    So for me Williams have it essentially right. Prost was as bright and
    chirpy as I have ever seen him when he was interviewed in the Williams
    facility last week. He is particularly happy apparently to be working
    with the old mechanics and crew that he was so successful with in the
    Renault/Renault/turbo days.
    
    Williams to win the final honours next season but a great deal of close
    racing for the points from Benneton, Ferrari and hopefully McLaren.
    
    The latter will take all of Ron Dennis's skill to hold toghether as a
    team if he does not get a top driver to front for the team because one
    thing is for sure - without Senna (or Prost) this season McLaren would be 
    in the same doldrums as Ferrari.
    
                        George Frost
    			

	Bonjour, 

	one interesting fact I haven't read about yet in this topic, about
	the would-be McLaren/Renault deal: Renault has an binding contract 
	of partnership with Elf, while McLaren has the same type of contract
	with Shell. 

	Any idea of a way to solve that pb, if Ron D. really wants the 
	renault engine?

		Pierre

    Estoril 30-Sep-92
    -----------------
    
    Prost	Williams FW14B	1'15"33
    Blundell	McLaren		1'16"14
    Hill	Williams FW14B	1'16"37
    Schumacher	Benetton	1'16"38
    Al�si	Ferrari		1'17"08
    de Cesaris	Tyrrell		1'17"33
    Comas	Ligier		1'17"52
    Senna	McLaren		1'17"55
    Warwick	Footwork	1'18"02
    .................
    
    Prost and Blundell (among others) were using 18" tyres. Prost managed
    to run for series of 10-12 laps before his neck muscles gave up.

    Estoril 01-Oct-92
    -----------------
    
    Hill	Williams FW14B	1'14"19 (15"tyres)
    Prost	Williams FW14B  1'14"83	(18"tyres)
    Blundell	McLaren		1'15"57 (18"tyres)
    Schumacher	Benetton	1'16"32 (15"tyres)
    Al�si	Ferrari		1'16"72  "    "
    .......................
    
    Prost gave a short interview to TF1. Extracts: "my driving position is
    not yet perfect, I still have problems reaching the pedals, pushing the
    car to its limits is impossible in those conditions, the car is
    absolutely fantastic, best car I've ever driven, ... etc ..., reaching
    the limits of the car seems to be difficult because there is a lack of
    direct feeling at some point, I look forward to more testing ..."
    
    Note that his best lap time of the 3 days would have put him on 2nd row
    for the GP. Not bad for a man who has not driven a F1 for 7 months and
    who is not well seated ... 

Yesterday, the Indy cars ran ar Nazareth, PA (home of the Andretti's and CF Martin 
guitars), and the arce was pretty good with Bobby Rahal winning, Michael coming 
second, but getting points for pole and most laps led. The chanpionship will go to 
the last race at Leguna Seca in 2 weeks.

The interest was high in Mansell. The commentators said they had never seen such a 
large crowd at the Nazareth facility, and that folks, when asked, were anxious to 
see Nige in an Indy car mixing it up with the Yanks, whose ranks are being filled 
by F1-types all the time. Aside from Fittipaldi, Stefan Johannson announced his 
ride for next year, Chritian Danner will be there, and two of the top drivers this 
year are Canadians - Scott Goodyear and Paul Tracy. When Mario leaves (soon I 
hope), and with Michael going to F1 (and L'il Al might follow), Indy cars are 
taking on an decidely Euro look. Rumors Stateside are still running high that 
Unser will sign - at Williams or Benetton. We'll see.

Paul
 

    Benneton is wrapped up as far as I see it.
    Schumacher and Patrese.
    
    Williams will I think go with Brundle, with Hill a strong favourite.
    
    Perhaps next year for Al Unser jnr?
    
    		George Frost

    Back to work for the Williams team at Paul Ricard this week. The bad
    news are:
    
    - it's apparently (unusual) rain season over here
    - testing happens behind closed doors. No entrance
    
    If and when weather permits, they will debug the 1993 car (aerodynamic
    load, weight distribution, etc ...)

    .320�Alesi's time was close to his 92 qualifying time. But the there are more 93 spec 
    .320�changes that the 15" tire rule. Taken together, the new cars will be differect.
    
    The new cars will be different. But the new cars will only appear -say-
    in feb 1993. The cars tested at Estoril were basically 1992 cars with
    15" tyres and a lowered rear wing. The overal car width was still along
    the 1992 rules. They were all using 1992 engines.
    
    Estoril is probably the most difficult circuit in terms of settings. A
    car that performs well at Estoril surely goes well (with the right
    adjustments) everywhere else.
    
    Back to Al�si. I heard hime say that he enjoyed the 15" tyres "it's
    fun, you find yourself going sideways most of the time ...". Seriously
    I think there will be a lot of work required to set the cars to the new
    rules. Williams with their advanced reactive suspension will surely
    benefit a lot. 

    .313�    Ligier
    
    Olivier Panis, who belongs to the 'Elf connection' (like Prost, Tambay,
    Comas, etc ...), is moving towards Ligier either as a full time driver
    or as a test driver. Panis is currently competing in the F3000
    championship (under Elf colours).
    
    .313�    BMS
    
    .313�    Alboreto and Badaur are drifting to the top of the option list. This
    
    The new Scuderia Italia will be using Lola chassis powered by Ferrari
    engines. Alboreto is a 90% sure with Capelli another good bet. Badoer
    will have some connection as well (test driver ?)
    
    .313�    Footwork
    .313�    Suzuki stays put, with Del Boy the most likely partner.
    
    Warwick is talking to Footwork. Suzuki's last races were disastrous but
    he probably owns links with Japanese funds ...

      I tried this in the book topic but got no response, so I deleted
    it there and will try it here, since some of you might not use
    next unseen. 
    
       
      I have a book in my collection that is called the World Atlas
    of Motor Racing By Joe Saward. This book has an overhead view of
    most of the world's better known race courses and oval tracks by way
    of some wonderful artwork, and is invaluable to see exactly where
    cameras are on the course, and for me makes watching the race that
    much more enjoyable. For example, I always wondered where Le Prof
    spun off on the warm-up lap at the San Marino GP. 8^}
    
      One word of warning for someone who may use this book for research;
    There are glaring errors in the captions desribing the pictures in the
    book. Without even trying I've found at least 5 or 6 errors, and that's
    without using reference material, just flipping through pages.
    
      In checking the photo credits, it seems most of the errors are in the
    pictures credited to Autosport. If anyone is interested, I'll post
    the flubs I've found. Frankly, I'm surprised some of these weren't
    found in the editing process. 
    
    KC  (RIP, Denny) :^{
                                                                   

    Patrick,
    
    	I thought that the Ricard testing was last week?? Oh well.
    
    			George Frost

    .332�    	I thought that the Ricard testing was last week?? Oh well.
    
    That's what I had understood initially from the Estoril interviews,
    later they talked about "next week in private". That is this week.
    
    They are here to work hard on the future car. They've said they won't
    let anyone in. No way to check. We'll probably hear from them anyway ...
    one of these days.

    I have a contact into the Ricard 'family' (habitues, close fans etc...). 
    I'll see if I can wean any info.
    
    		George Frost  

Did Williams make an announcement yesterday for their second driver ?

    RE; 330
    
    I hate to sound stupid, but who is "Del Boy"?  Also, any of you folks
    who are subscribers to either Autosport or Motorsport(?), have either
    of those magazines begun advertising the availability of their 1993
    calendars?  
    
    Thanks,
    
    	Barb

    
    Derek Mitchell? :^)
    
    Mark

    
    Derek Trotter???????? 8-)

    Ok, so "Del Boy" is Derek Warwick, but then where did the "Del" part
    come from?
    
    Inquiring minds want to know.  It would make a heck of a trivia
    question, but that's not why I'm curious.
    
    Thanks,
    	Barb
    

I assume Del is the diminutive of Derek. The expression "Del boy"
became know from the TV series "Only fools and horses" ...

    I heard on French radio last night that, in an interview with the
    Evening Standard, Frank Williams had finally rebuked any possibility of
    Senna driving for Williams next season. He also said that the short
    list was down to just two names:
    
    Damon Hill
    Martin Brundle
    
    Now I know that Damon Hill is currently Williams' test driver, but does
    he have a track record that one would expect for a driver in what is,
    currently, the best F1 team in the world? Does he have any F3000
    experience? How sucessful was he? I'm all ears...
    
    Salut,
    Ed.
                                                     

    
    Damon Hill.
    
    He's often faster than all other drivers in testing and he has had some
    F3000 experience (Most of it unfortunate...In 1991 he was let down by
    an uncompetitive car and the year before that he had a competitive, but
    unreliable car and led a number of races before retiring, usually due
    to car failure rather than over-exuberance).
    
    Personally, much as I think Brundle deserves a competitive ride, I'd
    like to see some new blood in F1 and I think Hill could be just the man
    to become the next British F1 champion.
    
    Mark

Sky News mentioned something similar, but only said that these two were
on the list. Not that they were the whole list ...

    
     How old is Hill ?  After all this wunderkind press that Schumacker's
    been getting another young driver in a good car might make people
    realise how much of today's racing is machinery dependant and how much
    is talent. I'm not saying Schumacker is not very good just that with the
    right car a few others could do the same thing.
    

CEEFAX carried the report as well. It seems that along with Senna's name
apparently being erased from the Williams list, Patrese is also out
of the frame. (Can we assume he will definatley ride in a Benetton
next term?)

Frank Williams was quoted as being torn between opting for the tried and
tested (Brundle), or throwing caution to the wind and taking a gamble (Hill).
Or something like that, anyawy.

Personally, I'd have thought that Hill was a KNOWN quantity in that he
knows the car and team well. As previously mentioned, he can drive
the Williams very quickly indeed.

However, Brundle having done as well as he has this year, gives him
a higher public and sponsorship profile -- certainly in the UK, anyway.

Terry B.

Williams press officer said on Radio 1 yesterday, that there is a 90% chance 
that a British driver will get the drive next year.

Nothing like making your mind up early!!

Greg

    
    	The situation is still confused. All this stems from Williams being
    	so dominant this year. Now everyone has been scrambling to get a
    	ride with them next year. I would like to see Damon Hill getting
    	the Williams seat with Brundle pairing with Andretti at McLaren and
    	Senna out in the cold.
    
    	Tony B.

    Something I don't think got mentioned about the 'Will it be Brundle ,
    will it be Hill, you'll have to wait and see' ,nonsence at williams, is
    that on Ceefax last night It said that williams will make an
    announcement within the next month. Nothing like taking you time hu!. 
    
    	

Damon Hill is not young - 28/29 years old. He'd be real cheap (something close
to Williams' heart). Only problem is that they'd need a new test driver
(Senna?!).

What I want to see is someone who will give Prost some healthy competition - I
think that this season would have been much more entertaining if Riccardo had
been able to give his team mate a run for his money ( 9-0 ).

Steve

Driver to give Prost competition?

	Schumacher
	Brundle
	Gachot
	Alesi
	Hakinnen
	Senna

Dave.

    I must, before I get into my repy on this one preface my text.
    
    I have always considered the driver to be the most important element of
    the car/driver combination and I certainly have not changed my opinion.
    My remarks below however will read as if I had changed.
    
    I believe that Prost will only REALLY be challenged by his co driver
    since his car is all conquering.
    As Prost has just recently said, this is THE best F1 car....he meant
    currently and since he has been driving.
    
    He added that the car, when driven hard reaches a point at which it
    looses its feel and the driver (Prost) goes into the unknown re: the
    full capabilities of the car.
    
    What this does for me is to put the Mansell tiswas into a clearer 
    perspective. Perhaps the reason that Mansell is more sucessfull with
    this car than Patrese is that Mansell is prepared to drive it beyond
    the known and accepted limits in F1?
    
    The question now remains - who will challenge Prost in '93?
    Mansell has provided the baseline performance accomplishments of the
    car/driver combination. Although somewhat unfair because of the '93
    regulations, I feel that Prost will initially be measured against
    Mansell. Thereafter, given that the car is still streets ahead of the
    opposition and will remain so for '93, Prost will get his opposition
    from his co-driver.
    
    It remains to be seen if McLaren can obtain a competitive engine AND
    get its 'rudimentary' active suspension system working reliably and as
    effectively as Williams. If so, Senna (because I believe that Senna will
    stay with McLaren) will provide the competition.
    
    Benneton do not have active ride nor do Lotus or Ferrari. Their
    competition therefore for me will be limited to positions and the
    pickings coming from reliability.
    
    In a nutshell - Williams are so far ahead of the pack that the only
    logical opposition in '93 is a person in the same car.
    If Brundle is selected he will push Prost very hard indeed and could
    pressure him for the title.
    Hill, if selected, will push Prost on a race to race basis but will not
    in my opinion challenge Prost for the title.
    
    
    			George Frost
    
      

    
    Hill has a lot more experience of active suspension and would (one
    suspects) happily take on a no 2 role. Brundle HAS to prove himself
    next season (He's been dumped this season, despite showing promise and
    could easily disappear without trace unless he shows well next year).
    
    Benneton WILL have active suspension (as will Lotus, I think) next
    season and look likely to be the favourite (on current conditions) to
    challenge the Williams stranglehold. 
    
    Williams COULD be the dominant team all next season, but it would not
    be a unique situation for a team to go from being dominant to, if not
    an also ran, at least an equal contender.
    
    Mark

    Although Benneton MIGHT kick off the season with active ride, there
    will be so many unknowns - reliability, durability, driver stress,
    installability (?), ease of upgrade/modification etc., etc. DURING A FIRST
    FULL SEASON, that I do not for one moment think that Benneton will
    challenge Williams on an equal basis. The end of the season perhaps.
    
    The same remarks apply to Ferrari and McLaren because they also will
    use their first full active ride systems.
    
    				George Frost
     

RE: .351, .352

Dave,
	George summed up what I was trying to say - it seems likely that
Williams will still have a big car advantage next season; therefore the driver
most likely to challenge Prost will be his team mate.

	George is again right about Mansell. In testing last winter, both
Williams drivers complained about the lack of feel of the car. Riccardo is a
more 'natural' driver - he feels the car around the circuit. He found it very
difficult to adapt to the new car. Nigel just gets in and drives - he is very
brave and drives around any problem (in this case, the lack of feel of the
suspension). This is what makes him one of the great racing drivers of all time
- he will get the maximum out of any machinery he is given (and his overtaking
is second to none).

	A similar problem presented itself last winter. Williams are developing
a system where you accelerate/gear change with your right leg and brake with
your left (the gear selected is coupled to how far you have pushed the gas
pedal). Again Riccardo could not get used to it - he described it as unnatural
- yet Damon Hill did adapt quickly.

Cheers

Steve. 

My reply .351 was suggesting teammates for Prost that could give him
competition.

Dave.

    OK Dave clear. My opinion here is that it will be Damon Hill. According
    to his Mum he has more natural talent than Graham had.
    
    			George Frost

    .352�    Benneton do not have active ride nor do Lotus or Ferrari. Their
    
    Wrong George. Lotus have had it for most of the current season. McLaren
    Benetton, Ferrari have it in the lab and have done some testing.

    OK Patrick, what was intended was as you put in your header - active
    with a processed 'intelligent' ride compensation device.
    
    		GLF
    

    From 3615 Sport Auto:
    
    Paul Ricard news
    
    Both Hill and Prost have been able to run several tests with the 2 cars
    (this year's FW14 and the prototype FW15). The FW14 used 15" tyres and
    the lowered rear wing while the FW15 is built to 1993 specs with proto-
    type reactive suspension (undisclosed details)
    
    Wed 7-Oct: due to the poor weather conditions at Ricard they have only 
    been able to 'play' with the cars for about 30 minutes before sunset. 
    Both recorded fastest lap times around 1'04" with Hill (1'04"42) beating 
    Prost (1'04"74) by a few tenths of a second.
    
    Thu 8-Oct: more work done and more stress on the components. Prost has done
    35 laps with the FW15 with a fastest time of 1'04"10. He was eventually 
    stopped with gearbox failure. Hill, still with the FW14, managed to lap 52
    times before the engine gave up. No time communicated.

    Fri 9-Oct: Prost is reported to be trying a full GP distance.

    This should be the end of this week's secret testing session at Ricard. Due
    to the very bad weather they certainly could not achieve too much ...
 
    No photos published. I guess the info came from someone who managed to
    sneak through the fence ...

    Has anybody else heard the rumour that Ferrari want to buy Mansells
    Indy contract so he can race for them next year ?
    
    Shaun.

    
    Not heard that but it sounds semi feasable. The tifose think the sun
    shines from his nether region, Ferrari have offered in the not to
    distant past big bucks for Mansell to go back. But Who would Go ?????
    Who at Ferrari would be the sacraficial lamb, Berger ?? or Alesi ???
    I can't see Ferrari wanting to get rid of Alesi and Berger has just
    put his x on the paper. F1 being F1 anything is possible, and at the
    moment Ferrari are not exactly the next best thing to silced bread in
    Italy at the moment. It sounds a believable but have doults that it
    would happen. But who knows.
    

    
    Article in the Independant this weekend that Carl Haas confirmed
    he had been approached by a major F1 team (would not say who!!,but they 
    use alot of red paint).
    He said that he would not stand in Nigel's way if he wanted to return
    to F1, but would not like to loose him. also he thought it very unlikely
    that Nigel would change his mind.
    
    Imagine Ferrari with No 1 + 2 .......... "no dont think so"
    
    Phil..

    re. last few
    
    Knowing that Hill is by far the ideal candidate for Williams No 2 why
    is the announcement postponed to a later date ... ?
    
    A possible guess: Williams still have the Al�si contract, Ferrari
    hire Mansell back.

RE: .361, .362, .363

I can see why Ferrari might want Mansell, but I can't see why Mansell would 
want anything to do with Ferrari.

--PSW

    .365�I can see why Ferrari might want Mansell, but I can't see why Mansell would 
    .365�want anything to do with Ferrari.
    
    Ferrari 93 will not be very different from Ferrari 92. They're
    obviously on the right track but it will take some time before they
    reach the top. Barnard has told Senna to wait for 94.
    
    Mansell may want to occupy the field. He's also extremely popular among
    Ferrari fans.

    
    The Indie on Saturday reported that Hill (32) was 99.9% certain 
    of the Williams seat. Brundle was said to be disappointed and in
    talks with Ligier.
    
    Prost is said to "like" Hill - so I reckon that will be enough.

According to good old CEEFAX this evening, Martin Brundle has been told
by Frank Williams that there isn't a place for him at Didcot.

Also, Williams remain still tight lipped about the second Williams seat.
The CEEFAX piece suggested 'mystery' surrounded the nomination of
Prosts team-mate for next year!

Hmmmm.

In next weeks thrilling installment of the top rated tv
soap 'Didcot -- the racing game'; Will Damon climb that final Hill?
Will Jean join Alain for a French Revolution? Or will the Americans
save the day?

Stay tuned to this channel. 


Terry B

�According to good old CEEFAX this evening,
    
    What page number(s) are you looking at for this info ?
    
    I looked at the 38* pages and didn't notice anything.
    
    J.R.

Heard the same on SKYnews yesterday evening.

This is getting VERY silly ...

    
    	I saw the report on Ceefax last night as well. Page 381.
    	I have taken to looking at it everynight now to get the latest
    	gossip from Didcot!
    
    	Tony

    In fact there were 2 pieces of info given a week ago:
    
    	- no Brundle at Williams
    	- no Ford at McLaren
    
    This is getting like Agatha Christie's novels

RE: 369

It was either page 381, 382 or 383.

The news was also on ORACLE, somewhere like 136-ish?

This report quotes Brundle as being very disappointed, because, apparently,
last week Frank Williams made some kind of provisional agreement with Martin!
One assumes this was about the Williams drive for 1993?

Can't remember the exact quote, I'm afraid...

Reports also confirm that Hakinnen was in the frame a while ago, but
now isn't. Only leaves Hill, doesn't it?


Terry B

RE: -.1

>>Reports also confirm that Hakinnen was in the frame a while ago, but
>>now isn't. Only leaves Hill, doesn't it?

Nope!

In decreasing order of probabilty:

	- Hill
	- Anybody who brings a big sponsor with them (Frank wants money to
	  design and build gadgets, a driver that brings in money would go 
	  down sideways - even if he wasn't a world beater.
	- Unser, who's probably missing his friend Andretti and wants to
	  stay in contact with him.
	- Alesi. You know, Ferrari buy up 'never change my mind Nige' and
	  Prost gets his bosom pal at Williams.

    Everything revolves around Senna. 
    
    Now that Ayrton
    
    - knows he will not get the No 2 Williams
    - has informed Ron Dennis that he won't stay with McLaren
    
    he is reviewing his position with Ferrari. Latest news is that he made an
    offer. Of course we're not talking of 25M$ as he was offered a month
    ago. If the deal is workable, then we'll have:
    
    Ferrari	Senna 	Berger
    Williams	Prost	Al�si	(which, IMO, is what they're trying to
    			         achieve anyway) 

    
    Intresting, I can see the reasoning behind Prost and Alesi. The
    motivation behind that must be Renualt and not Williams , I now make
    you wonder who runs that team. Are or is Frank Williams calling the
    shots or are Renualt pulling the strings.
    
    Assuming that there is
    
    	Ferrari  = Senna Berger
    	Williams = Prost Alesi
    	Bennaton = Schumacher Patrese
    	Lotus    = Herbert Hakkinen
    	Mclaren  = Andretti
    
    There is the wild card Brundle, who says he had a deal with williams ,
    but it would seem not now. Will he fill the 2nd seat at McLaren ?
    If that were true which, which driver would assume #1 status. Andretti
    has no F1 experiance and must surly assume to coin a cart phrase
    'rookie status'. Brundle on the other hand is not too shabby at the
    moment.  Then the romour that Ferrari have bought out Mansell's
    contract from Newman/Haas, that adds a new dimension, what we could
    endup seeing is Senna and Mansell at Ferrari, Prost and Alesi at
    Williams, Andretti and Brundle at Mclaren and Berger out on his ear,
    and Damen Hill still testing for Williams.
    
    The merry-go-round continue and the music still plays. It could be 1993
    before all the runners and riders are sorted.  
    
    
    	Garry

28 Feb	South Africa	Kyalami

14 Mar	Brazil		Sao Paulo

04 Apr	Asia		Autopolis
25 Apr	San Marino	Imola

09 May	Spain		Barcelona
23 May	Monaco		Monaco

13 Jun	Canada		Montreal

04 Jul	France		Magny-Cours
11 Jul	UK		Silverstone
25 Jul	Germany		Hockenheim

15 Aug	Hungary		Budapest
29 Aug	Belgium		Spa

12 Sep	Italy		Monza
26 Sep	Portugal	Estoril

24 Oct	Japan		Suzuka

07 Nov	Australia	Adelaide

    Vogon news has it today that a British consortium? has made noises to
    buy or use the Paul Ricard ( Castellet) circuit here in the south of
    France, for a motor sport showpiece etc., etc.
    Any other tid bits?
    
    		George Frost

    
    It would also appear that Brabham are on the road to recovery, Well
    maybe. A consortium headed by Alan Randall , famous for his big Jaguar
    wsc team that fell through due to no money this year, have bought out
    the team. Expected return at Kyalami in feb.
    
    Garry

re: -.1
I would think that if Randall couldn't pull off the finances for a big Jag effort 
in WSC, he would not be a "savior" to Brabbham.

Paul

>    Intresting, I can see the reasoning behind Prost and Alesi. The
>    motivation behind that must be Renualt and not Williams , I now make
>    you wonder who runs that team. Are or is Frank Williams calling the
>    shots or are Renualt pulling the strings.

re. .376
How obvious does this have to get?
Do we expect Frank Williams to announce in a press conference that:

	1. Sponsorship considerations prohibit him from running his team.
	2. The 1993 F1 championship was probably negotiated in a Renault 
	   board room in the summer of 1992 by a French National driver.

This whole episode DISGUSTS me.		:^(

I yearn for the days of racing on the track, rather than in the board 
room.  We have to live with political racing at work all the time; I don't 
wish to have it dominate my outside hobbies, as well ... but I fear that 
c'est la vie ...

I fear an intensely BORING 1993 F1 year.  Hopefully, Indy racing will 
offset that ...

/Mike

	I think it all changed many, many years ago when Colin Chapman
agreed to changing the name of his cars to "John Player Specials".

    Has anyone read in USA Today on Saturday that Al Unser JR. has signed
    with Williams. There was no statement during the INDYCAR race on
    sunday.   What is the latest from this Didcot soap opera.
    
    Steven
    
    

    Re: .383
    
    	I did hear a statement about Al JR.  He denies having a seat at
    either Williams or Benneton and he was looking forward to next year in
    Indy-cars.
    
    
    
    								-chuck-

    re .382
    
    The last time any sort of personal stance seems to have been made, was
    by Sterling Moss when he refused a drive at Maserati (or Ferrari?) to
    drive British.
    The decision was futile since no British car was competitive and his
    season was wasted before he went to Mercedes.
    
    Lesson learned?.....it is the competitive car which attracts the best
    drivers, and it is the power (and money Mark 8-)) that makes the car
    competitive in the first instance.
    To stay competitive is the responsibility of the driver.
    
    		George Frost

    Last night on sky, The commentator said that this was Andretti's last
    indy race, And he'll be at silverstone in november for testing. So it
    will be interesting to see how he'll get on with the change if any.

Andretti did say after the race last Sunday that he was looking forward to F1 and 
that testing would begin in November at Silverstone.

Going the other way, Nigel said he was looking forward to Indycars and his testing 
schedule would start in January.

Paul

    
    Heard on BBC radio @ 6am this morning that Williams will not announce
    who will replace Patrese until the end of the season. It was rumoured
    though that Damon Hill and Derek Warwick were both being considered.
    
    - Ian

    If Williams can keep politics out of it (impossible), they should go
    for Hill.  We know Hill can drive the car fast, though he has little F1
    experience.
    
    There has to be the possibility that if more feel can't be tuned into
    the suspension of the car, Prost may never be able to drive it near
    it's limit.  

	Good, if Prost makes a mess of such a brilliant car, I for
	one will be happy.  (It will confirm all my predjudices)

	Dave

	No, just the ones relating to Formula 1.  Good heavens, I have
	too many for that!

    re .389,390
    
    Who are going to be disappointed little boys at the end of the '93
    season then? 8-)
    
    Seriously though, I found it significant that Prost picked up the
    'feel' of the car on his first drive. He also said that the Williams F1
    car was the best there was (or words to that effect).
    So in addition to being immediately competitive for his 'first' formal
    test session after a 'layoff' for a year and stepping into a car he had
    never driven, he seems to have dispelled any doubt as to his '93
    performance.
    
    I would like to see Alesi in the second Williams next year. He really is
    in my opinion a very skilled driver who hangs it all out when
    necessary. He still has some polishing ahead of him but Ferrari must
    have been a very sobering influence. Reminds me perhaps of Ronnie Peterson.
    I would like to be able to make comparisons between Alesi and
    Schumacher....obviously one cannot until both are in competitive cars
    but for me these are the two most likely to accede to the the World
    Championship at the end of the respective reigns of Prost and Senna.
    
    I would like also to see Hill in the other Williams....but there is
    only one seat available. He, I believe is the most likely choice for
    Frank Williams.
    
    On another tack, I still do not think it inconceivable that Senna and
    Berger will drive again together next year - at Ferrari.
    
    			George Frost 
    

    .387�Andretti did say after the race last Sunday that he was looking forward to F1 and 
    .387�Going the other way, Nigel said he was looking forward to Indycars and his testing 
    
    What else could they say ?	:^))
    
    Andretti reports:
    
    "I'll have to drive a F1 next year ... shit ! I really hate that ...
     and I'll probably have to live in a bloody european place where they
     don't have decent coke and speak funny languages with funny accents
     ... but what else can I do, I have a family and I have a mortgage on
     the house and my wife is cross with me when I don't bring the winner's
     prize home ..."
    

�    'feel' of the car on his first drive. He also said that the Williams F1
�    car was the best there was (or words to that effect).
    
    You mean he had to drive the car to be able to state that ???  :-)
    
    J.R.

    J.R. you and I believe that it is the best car. 
    I had no idea that it lost its feel until it was mentioned a week or 
    two before Portugal and then later by Prost.
    Prost confirmed our thoughts in public.
    
    Not having driven the car I find it refreshing that Prost can say all
    he did about the car after his first tour - 'course Mansell never did
    in two years - but seriously I am not slinging mud.
    
    Prost has said its the best, so it is his head if he does not do well in
    it. I applaud that.
    
    		GLF

    .393�    I would like to be able to make comparisons between Alesi and
    .393�    Schumacher....obviously one cannot until both are in competitive cars
    
    They both belong to the 'immediately competitive in F1' club. I was at
    Paul Ricard when Al�si first jumped in the Tyrrell seat. Schumacher did
    equally well at Spa last yeat with the Jordan.
    
    Other club members: Senna, Prost

RE: -.1

Plus Andretti (pole on his GP debut) and Villeneuve

    re -1
    
    yup, but not currently driving
    
    		GLF

Items from rec.autos.sport:

o There was a summary of an Autospeed issue posted, with comments from Patrick 
Head and Frank Williams, in which Frank Williams expressed disappointment with 
McLaren's having Renault engines next year.  It looks like McLaren/Renault may 
be a done deal?

o Jordan are reported to be dumping Yamaha (no surprise here) in favor of Judd 
V10s.

--PSW

...further to the Williams intigue...

Yesterdays Evening Post (local paper in Reading) quoted Frank Williams
as follows:

    "We cannot announce who will drive alongside Alain Prost until
    after Adelaide.

    I would like it to be a British driver, but we are a European team."


Is that "but" a big clue for us all?


Terry B.

Aerospatiale will be involved in F1 next season - they are going to work
primarily with Renault.

In their publicity release yesterday they forsee 3 areas of expertise that they
will bring to F1:

- Hi-tech. materials to lighten the engine
- Knowledge of advanced electronic management systems - they cite the 'fly by
  wire' A320 Airbus as the main example of what they have achieved.
- 'Intelligent helmets' - displaying key information on the helmet visor.
  Information would primarily be engine related, but could also include
  displays of where other drivers are on the circuit.

Steve

    .402�Aerospatiale will be involved in F1 next season - they are going to work
    .402�primarily with Renault.
    
    Interesting. This year and last year they teamed with Peugeot in WSCC.
    In road cars, they work with Bugatti (carbon-kevlar shell).

On ESPN Speedweek a reporter asked Mansel bluntly if he'd really be coming 
here to race next year.  Nigel said yes, definitely, I'll coming here (or 
words to that effect).  More than the words, the inflection of his voice 
and manner left no doubt in my mind that he REALLY meant it.

re. 396
>    Not having driven the car I find it refreshing that Prost can say all
>    he did about the car after his first tour - 'course Mansell never did
>    in two years

I've noticed that some folks seem to have a nagging problem with Mansel 
not giving credit to the Williams car.  While I think that the car is 
definitely the best (and I believe that Mansel would acknowledge that, if 
asked straight out), I DO understand his reluctance to dwell on the car.

After all he's been through, including losses due to failing development 
technology (risks that other top drivers avoided in insisting on proven 
technology), I think any of us would be reluctant to denigrate his success 
to other than ourselves.

Who wants to hear people belittle one's success with remarks like, "well, 
of course he won; he had the best car"?  Mario Andretti was in a similar 
situation with the `78 JPS Lotus; the car was the class of the field, yet 
I don't recall people getting unduly upset with Mario's not attributing 
his championship to the car, alone...

/Mike

RE: .401

Al Unser, Jr. is reported in the Indianapolis newspapers as having given up on 
F1 for 1993, instead re-signing with the Galles Racing IndyCar team.  He was 
not pleased with the way that team politics interfered with his possible drive 
at Benetton.  Little Al definitely would like to drive a Willliams, and said he 
had been calling Frank Williams weekly about getting the drive.

I think in the end, Frank Williams's postponing his decision on the second 
driver until after Adelaide ruled out the driver for Little Al.  Rick Galles 
can't wait that long to decide on his team's drivers.

--PSW

    Jordan have officially announced that they will not be using Yamaha
    engines next season. A Hart V10 loks likely. Also, Brundle is rumoured
    to be joining fast Eddie.
    
    Warwick is about to be confirmed today at Footwork.
    
    Pacific Racing asking #1.5m per driver in sponsorship to get a drive
    
    Worryingly, rumours were apparently going round the MotorFair that
    Lotus were about to go under. Nothing concrete, and just two weeks ago
    they were about to announce a 3 year sponsorship package according to
    Guy Edwards. Hope this one isn't true.
    
    Paul

	Heard on (UK) Radio 4 this morning:

	(1) Mansell set the fastest lap yesterday in Japan,
	
	(2) Derik Warwick will drive for Jordan next year

	Dave

	
>	(2) Derik Warwick will drive for Jordan next year

    Derek Warwick has been confirmed as no. 1 driver for Footwork next
    year, not Jordan.

    Andy

    
    >> Derek Warwick has been confirmed as no. 1 driver for Footwork next
    >> year, not Jordan.
    
    For whom he has driven on numerous occasions in the past. I can't
    recall where Alboreto has gone. Is it Scuedria Italia?
    
    Mark

    
    	Why,  whenever he's interviewed,  does Derek Warwick feel the need
    to tells us all what a wonderful home life he has?  He's been married
    for 17 years (but known his wife for 21 years).  Is this some form of
    mental compensation for the dangers of his chosen profession,  to 
    retreat into the safe haven of his home?
    
    	Who gives a monkeys?
    
    Cliff

    
    Perhaps he is proud of his family Cliff you useless footballer
    you !!!
    
    JN. :-)

    
    I agree, it was an odd interview.
    
    He started off saying 'I left F1 because I couldn't get a competitive
    drive', but instead of saying 'Now Footwork can offer me that', he went
    on about how much he loved his wife (which I don't doubt he does, but
    seemed an odd direction to take the train of conversation).
    
    Mark

Uncle Ron is expected to announce his double deal - with Ligier and Renault
within the next few days. I've got to take my hat off to this man - he doesn't
know the meaning of the words 'lose' or 'give-up'. He just gets on with things,
never moans - & treads all over whoever gets in his way.

BTW, I wonder how the Renault deal will pan out. Ligier get the previous engine
version and are serviced by a third party - Ron isn't going to be doling out
10's of millions of dollars for this! Expect 'equal' treatment of the two teams
- which will upset the current incumbents...

Steve

Mike:

You are wrong!  There are two known instances of automotive supremacy where the
driver gave the car the credit it was due.  In 1978, Mario Andretti heaped praise
on the Lotus.  In fact, he once said something to the effect that he was happy
to be paid to drive the car because almost anyone could win the championship
with that car.  The other case was Ayrton Senna at McLaren-Honda in 1990.  (Note
this was a different attitude than in 1991 when Senna correctly complained 
about the car - even after winning the first 4 races).  Even in the heat of
competition with Ferrari's Alain Prost, Senna was praising (albeit less than
Andretti in 1978) the MP4/5, Honda, Shell and McLaren.

I am still amazed that Mansell refuses to give the car and its creators - Head,
Newey, Dudot, Williams and Hill - the credit they truly deserve.  I guess that 
we needed a true champion (Prost) to get into the car and give it and them the
credit they are due.  (For those who think I am starting to sound like George,
I am sure that Senna would have said the same about the car).

Maybe that explains why folks like Andretti, Prost and Senna get so much support
from their teams.  (IMHO, a more likely reason than "speaking Italian").

				-- Carlos.

Question #1:	When will the Japanese GP be broadcast in the U.S?

Question #2:	How is it that Brundle never showed up in Friday's lap times?

Question #3:	Is Alboreto confirmed at Scooteria/Screwderia Italia?

    Japanese GP... 1200 AM this Saturday night- Sunday Morning, if I read
    it right.
    
    Jim

re.414:

>I am still amazed that Mansell refuses to give the car and its creators - Head,
>Newey, Dudot, Williams and Hill - the credit they truly deserve. 

Mansell has praised the car, team, and Renault on several occasions this year,
he just does not do it everytime he's interviewed.

Dave.

And he certainly praised it on Saturday - 'a marionnette could win with this
chassis/engine competion. Prost must allow a competitive driver into the team;
otherwise there is every chance that he will walk all 16 races'

;-)

Steve

There will be no #1 in F1 next season - Williams will be given #0 and #2
according to Max M.

    .418�There will be no #1 in F1 next season - Williams will be given #0 and #2
    .418�according to Max M.
    
    unless, as Prost and TF1 reporters were telling us yesterday, Mansell
    comes back (and takes No1).
    
    Apparently Nigel has only signed a letter of intent with Newman-Haas.
    Frank Williams is giving him until 2 weeks after Adelaide to take his
    final decision.

	#0 for Prost was suggested by Ron Dennis who violently refused 
	that Williams (and one of his drivers) should inherit #1. 
	Why was Mister Ron so angry?  

Re. -1 	>> Prost must allow a competitive driver into the team;
	>> otherwise there is every chance that he will walk all 16 races'
	 
		On French TV yesterday, when asked how he felt about 
		Mansell's possible come-back within the Williams team, 
		Prost said that he "had never been against it", and that 
		"it would be very positive for the team; doors are wide 
		open to welcome him".

With regard to Mansell 'NEVER' complimenting his machinerary:
 Even before the season began, Our Nige would say words to the effect that
"WE are ready this time...". Once the season had begun "WE have prepared
ourselves..."

Who does he mean by "WE"? 

I have heard him on numerous occasions -- and at one point it got embarrassing
and obvious sponsor pamper -- the good and noteworthy efforts of Williams, 
Renault and Elf.


With regard to the Williams other driver to be:

In the Reading Evening Post on Friday (23/10/92), Nigel Mansell -- in
his regular-ish column, wished Riccardo Patrese well for nest season, whether
it was with Williams or Camel Benetton Ford!!


Terry B.

    
    Re .421
    
    Him and Mrs 'We are a Grandmother' T?
    
    Mark 

    re .421
    
    Delusions of grandeur......royal we.
    
    		George Frost

	It is only delusions of grandeur to refer to oneself as "we",
	refering to your team as we (as in we at Digital) is perfectly
	correct.

	Dave

	ps what a boring race.
	pps if the car made all the difference, then how come Patrese
		has not won as many races as Nigel?

    
    Maybe Del-Boy should get the #1 for his Footworks car, after all he is
    a current reigning world champion
    
    POL.

    re: it is only delusions of grandeur to refer to oneself as we
    
    
    
    				8-)
    
    
    		George Frost

    Dear POL.
    
    	you just lost me
    
    			George Frost
    

    re: .424 and your pps Dave.
    
    	Mansell has won more than Patrese because he is a better racer.
    
    	If you wish however to compare Mansell to Patrese that is your
    	lookout.
    
    			George Frost

    
    re .427
    
    George,
    
    maybe I should have put note references in my last note. I was of course
    refering to replies .419 and .420 where there was a discussion as to
    who would race car #1 next year. 
    
    As the title of my note suggests Derek Warwick as the current World
    Sportscar Champion would be a better choice to race with the number 1
    on his car rather than Prost who did nothing this year
    
    :-)
    
    POL.

    
    Prost has to be man of the season.
    
    After all, all the other drivers have to had to waste time and effort
    racing in cars. Prost has achieved the best drive for next season
    merely by sitting at home! Maybe, he could be given the 1993 world
    championship title on the same basis and Alesi and Hill could be given
    the Williams to play with. It'd be more enjoyable for those of us who
    don't sit rivetted to Yesterday in Parliament!
    
    Mark

    POL.
    
    	that's what I thought you meant.
    	I like sports car racing very much....like Mark. I do not follow it
    	too closely, unlike Mark......but I do not think it relevant to link 
    	it with F1 in terms of world championships.
    
    			George Frost

    I  guess that is all you deserve Mark (Yesterday in Parliament) since
    it is your man Moseley who has zapped Sports Car Racing from the FISA
    calendar.
    
    		George Frost
    

    
    George,
    
    It was just a passing observation, I don't expect it (and would expect
    it!!!!) to happen. I was merely pointing out that Prost has done
    nothing this year to merit driving car #1 next year.
    
    Maybe I should have put a smiley in my original reply along with those
    note references that I also forgot.
    
    
    :-)
    
    
    POL.

    Hey POL.
    
    	don't fall into the trap of taking my replies as a sign of being
    miffed. Like all noters (I assume), I use this forum to express my
    views..that's all.
    I find the wit and repartee amusing to say the least. When heated I say
    so.
    
    I really did accept your comment for what it was - a passing
    observation. Please accept mine as a passing reply to a passing
    observation.
    
    		George Frost
                

    George,
    
    Since you bring up the subject of Sportscar racing, I happen to think
    the only thing wrong with the death of the WSCC is that is was 12
    months late! The 3.5 litre cars were a manifestly STUPID idea (designed
    from the outset to kill sportscar racing, I believe) which I totally
    opposed when they were introduced (even to the extent of writing, and
    having published, a letter to Motoring News).
    
    Le Mans will return sportscar racing to the World stage in due course,
    but the Balestre/MGB inspired farce deserved to fall.'My man' Moseley
    (why you say that, I can't really understand. My feelings to him,
    whilst more benevolent than his predecesor, have never been entirely
    favourable, since he has a history of falling in with a fascist
    dictatorship (and I don't refer to anything his father may have been 
    involved with! :^)).), did all that was practical. A series of races
    cannot be called a World series with just 8 cars (only 5 of which could
    be considered competitive) and Peugeot and Toyota seemed unlikely even
    to prop up the 3.5 joke, anymore.
    
    1993 and beyond will, I believe, see a gradual resurgence of sportscar
    racing. Maybe back towards Group 6, maybe just back to the Group C cars
    prior to the 3.5s or maybe towards GT cars. We'll see, but the death of
    the WSCC can ONLY be seen in a good light.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Why not just give #1 to the highest finishing driver still racing? 

Re. 433 >> I was merely pointing out that Prost has done nothing this year 
	>> to merit driving car #1 next year.

		Mind you, Prost has never claimed #1 car for next year.
		Or may be has he claimed it in private, for Mr. Mark 
		only, since this man seems to know a lot more than
		everybody else, according to his notes (430 for instance):

	>> Prost has achieved the best drive for next season merely by
	>> sitting at home! May be he could be given the 1993 world
	>> championship ... It'd be more enjoyable for those of us ...

		Now, really! 
		Don't worry, Mr. Mark, psychiatrists have perfect treatments 
		to sooth paranoia. Or may be you're right after all. Prost has 
		won but very few points/victories in the past, and he was 
		ridicuously slow driving the FW14 in Portugal two weeks ago, 
		after a year "sitting at home". And remember how much slower
		he was last year (much slower than Comas and Boutsen) when 
		testing the Ligier before the current season. How foolish of 
		Frank Williams to have chosen him to drive one of his cars
		next year. This man Prost is even worse than a puppet/monkey.

		Regards, all the same.

			Pierre 
		 

    Mark, I never did bring up the subject of Sports Car racing. I brought
    up your OBJECTION to Balestre tentatively closing it down in 1991...
    when we all knew it was doomed as it was then structured.
    
    Rat hole out

    .436
    
    Pierre, if I spoke with a forked tongue in .430 it was firmly placed in
    my cheek. Note .430 was not meant to be taken seriously, but I didn't
    follow it with a :^), so I can see that you may have been fooled by it.
    However, it does say a lot for Prost's value in the eyes of the F1
    fraternity that he can sit out a season and still take his pick of the
    drives, doesn't it?
    
    .437
    > Mark, I never did bring up the subject of Sports Car racing. I brought
    > up your OBJECTION to Balestre tentatively closing it down in 1991...
    > when we all knew it was doomed as it was then structured.
    
    I'm almost afraid to ask, but what are you on about, George?
    
    Mark

    .431�    	too closely, unlike Mark......but I do not think it relevant to link 
    .431�    	it with F1 in terms of world championships.
    
    Well George, this is a good subject. This year's cars had F1 engines
    (almost), F1 tyres, F1 type chassis, F1 brakes PLUS better
    aerodynamics. In fact they sustain better lateral g forces. I just
    realised that Warwick's pole position at Magny-Cours in the Peugeot
    would have placed him on 3rd row of the F1 Grand Prix.
    
    The Sports Cars are heavier (750kg like Indycar) than F1 but they have
    much better aerodynamics. The big problem with current single seaters
    is open wheels (re Berger/Patrese at Estoril). 
    
    Are the Sports Cars the F1 of the future ?

    Patrick,
    
    	comparisons of WSCC cars and F1 yes.....but I said that it is not
    correct to link (and these words I missed) the champion driver to the
    Champion driver F1.
    Probably the top ten F1 drivers could drive VERY honourably if WSCC,
    but we don't foist F1 champion status on them.
    
    				George Frost
    
    			

    re .483
    
    Nope not trawling Mark...just good memory for some things. 
    From your replies over the years I had you pegged as a sports car buff 
    first then F1, and I remembered one of your 'flame-ons' 837.129
    
    Your previous reply seemed to contradict it that's all.
    
    		George Frost

    
    >> first then F1, and I remembered one of your 'flame-ons' 837.129
    >>
    >> Your previous reply seemed to contradict it that's all.
    
    I re-read the note and it doesn't seem to contradict my recent reply,
    at all. If you care to explain why you think it does, move it to mail
    and save us boring the F1 boys.
    
    Mark

Sorry to interrupt, but...

Saw some headlines this evening linking Brundle with McLaren.

The possibilities for guessing who goes where are looking quite
interesting, or not, I suppose...

	Williams:  Prost with Patrese or Hill or Alesi or Unser
        Benetton:  Schumacher with Patrese or Unser?
         McLaren:  Andretti with Brundle or Senna
         Ferrari:  Berger with Alesi or Senna or ???


Another headline stated that Mansell confirms his InyCar intentions for 1993,
therefore quashing rumours of another F1 return? Mind you, if he
did come back next year, it would make him the F1 equivelent of Elton John.
Now, Elton first "retired" in about 1978-ish. And he's STILL with us now.
This means that dear old Nigel will still be racing in Grand Prix well
into his fifties!!

No, we believe you this time Nige.

with love from Terry
	

    
    Terry,
    
    There was a rumour of Benneton selling the Ford V12 (I think) and
    Schumacher's contract to McLaren at one point, as well, but the Ligier/
    McLaren link up appears to have killed that one.
    
    Mark

    MaLaren-Renault-Ligier
    
    Several possibilities reported:
    
    - McLaren buys Renault engine from Ligier. Ligier gets a good Ford in
      return + plenty of dos
    
    - McLaren buys Ligier (and gets Renault deal). Ligier disappear (at
      least from F1)
    
    - McLaren buys Ligier and enters 2 teams: Marlboro/Shell/McLaren with
      Renault engines and Gitanes/Elf/Ligier with Renault or Ford engines
    
    Guy Ligier is reported to be fed up with the whole thing. He might very
    well decide to sell and retire.

RE: -.1

Renault say that they will only work with ELF - their partnership is
understandably very close. McLaren have this contract with Shell to sort
out....

I still don't know how Renault are going to keep both teams happy - Williams
have the call on their best engineers and their latest engine. There is no way
that McLaren will accept this - or Williams will give up their exclusive
partnership.

I bet ron will win this one - he's a better at manipulating situations to his
advantage in negotiations than Frank Williams.

    I bet Rn doesn't speak French as well as Frank does !!! Just a
    small point, but VERY important when dealing with French people ...

    Even if McLaren get a Renault engine, there's no reason why they should
    be any better than Ligier. After all, fitting an engine into a chassis
    is no easy thing to do. You really have to design the chassis around
    the engine (size, weight, cooling, etc ) and that alone takes time, 
    ask Frank.

RE: .443

You can't really compare Nigel Mansell and Elton John.  Nigel dresses more 
conservatively, for one thing.  If he dressed like Elton John, he'd be a drag 
racer.

--PSW

    
    The Brundle/McLaren news was carried on Oracle (teletext) too.
    
    Re : Patrick
    
    Given a Williams chassis, I think I'd prefer to run the RS3B/C
    than the new RS4. It's been nothing but trouble :-)
    
    
    Richard.

The news heard during the broadcast of the Japanese GP indicated that the 
McLaren/Renault hook up was dead, and Ford was in the picture at McLaren. Hmmm?

Al Unser singed a contract for '93 with Galles for Indycars. I doubt he'll be in 
F1 before '94. I believe that he did it because he was tired of fooling around 
with all the politics F1 contracts present, especially at Williams, McLaren, 
Benetton. Any way, Rick Galles didn't want to wait. He's got work to do to get 
ready (more competitive) in '93. I also believe that Patrese signed his contract 
with Benetton, and Berger with Ferrari, to take themselves out of the silliest of 
silly seasons. They now can settle in and concentrate on the work at hand. They 
are probably getting realistic salaries and didn't want to wait around to see how 
the Williams/McLaren/Prost/Senna/Mansell/Renault/Ford (did I leave someone out) 
negotiations turned out.

Nigel looked rested as he watched the Indycar race at Laguna Seca. He looked at 
peace. He'll be terrific on the road courses, but he'll have much to learn when 
they get on the high-speed ovals. Just ask Nelson Picquet. But in '93 there are 
new rules which should slow the fastest cars at Indy from 232+ to something around 
215. That should be enough for the present to make them a little safer, but it 
will still take absolute smoothness to maintain 210-215 mph - including in 
traffic, something Nigel has never had to do. It'll take time, but he'll adapt.

Paul

RE: -1

Apparently, Patrese was a little bit upset when he realised he had signed to
Benetton in the belief that there wouldn't be drive at Williams, only
to discover that, with Mansell off to the USA, there was indeed a 
vacancy at Didcot for 1993. Riccardo was seen in earnest discussion with
Frank after the Mansell 'bombshell' had been dropped.

There are those that feel Patrese could STILL drive for Williams
next term, but its not a strong rumour.

By the way, when Ricardo announced his signing-on at Benetton, he also
made it known that HE wanted to drive for Ferrari -- but that they didn't
want him. Now, we have to ask ourselves; Would he still go to Ferrari
IF the opportunity arose? For instance, if Alesi were to sign for
Williams?

I suppose that if that happened, Benetton could swallow their pride and
tell Martin Brundle that they didn't mean it when they said there wasn't a
drive for him with them in 1993...


Terry B.

    .452�IF the opportunity arose? For instance, if Alesi were to sign for
    .452�Williams?
    
    Probably not. Al�si going to Williams would mean Senna joins Ferrari.
    
    On a different subject it appears that the McLaren_Renault or
    McLaren_Ligier thing collapsed as indicated by -2. Nothing to do with 
    McLaren, Ligier, Renault, Marlboro, etc ... The BIG opposition came 
    from Elf and Shell.
    
    Elf are on the winning side and they certainly don't want to give up.
    Any sort of Renault engine must burn Elf petrol, that's what they
    impose. On the other hand Shell don't want to stop their affair with
    McLaren ...         
    
    A final note that Ron knows well: without Elf the Renault engine is 
    probably no better than the Honda or the Ferrari.

    Bad rumours about Pacific. Keith Wiggins did not get more than 30% of
    the funding commitments he was expecting to get. He has therefore told 
    FISA that he will probably not join F1 before 1994.
    
    He was expecting to grab a major contract with Marlboro (I don't really
    see them race 2 red-white teams ... personal opinion)

    Among the numerous changes to F1 championship rules (tyres, wings,
    width, petrol, ...)
    
    - F1 teams have until 30 days before 1st race to register (I bet many
      drivers will not take Xmas vacation this year)
    - F1 teams are allowed to switch their No1 driver once during the
      season
    - They are allowed to switch their No2 driver 3 times

As reported in 418, Williams WILL carry 0 (zero) and number 2 next year.

Hmmm.

Apparently, Senna knows what he is doing next year, but won't tell
anyone what it is. By all accounts, it doesn't seem likely that he'll
be driving a Renault powered McLaren as Shell and Elf are stumbling
blocks to that possible partnership, again, as correctly mooted
in these very pages earlier on.

And James Hunt having a go at Nigel for "running away" and NOT defending
the championship against Prost. (Hunt feels that Nigel would beat Prost
if he only stayued around to have a go).

Mansell, in retaliation, has accused Hunt of being sponsored by certain
parties(?), not supporting 'his' Williams team and feeling peeved that
he is the LAST British World Champ and not the present one.

Nigel, you will make everybody glad you ARE going to America if you
keep this up. Oh, and wave goodbye to the BBC tv Sports Personality
of the Year.


Terry B.

    
    I don't think Mansell could ever be seen as a Sports "Personality",
    unless boring Brummie gits qualify :-)
    
    

re.456:

Where do you get these gems?

Dave.

>>>    I don't think Mansell could ever be seen as a Sports "Personality",
>>>    unless boring Brummie gits qualify :-)
    
    I find it interesting that the motor racing buffs find Mansell boring
    but that the general public (this includes outside the UK) find him
    more human and like an average person than most other drivers.

    Where does that sentiment come from??
    That's not what I hear.
    
    		George Frost

    
    When someone is in the public eye as much as Mansell , too some extent
    he is going to be a bit guarded alot of things. If we are talking about 
    voice tone , you gotta put in the same class as Tiff Needel, he bore's
    me silly when he goes on and on , on sky sports .
    
    Garry 

	I count myself as a racing buff, and I rather like
	Mansell and enjoy watching him race.  However, I dislike
	him whinging, but maybe he's ill-equipped to deal with
	the backstage wheeler-dealing that goes on in F1.

	Dave

Interesting about Mansel. Watched Jasper Carrot on UK Gold last night.
He mentioned that that year (1986) Mansel was awarded sports personality
of the year ... 'although he finished second' :-)

Maybe this year he'll be second ...

    George,
    
    My comments about Mansell being more popular come from talking to
    non-racing people.  The racers hear Mansell whinging, but the general
    public don't see too many interviews with him, they just see him giving
    racing all he's got and they like that.

Mansell is a bleedin' 'ero.

Dave.

More of a bleeding heart.

--PSW

re.466:

Maybe you don't know Mansell? Here's a few snippets to get you started; He's the
guy that suffered burns in his first GP as a result of petrol spilt down his
back whilst sat on the grid. He kept going until the car expired. He has broken
both his neck and back, and as a result is one inch shorter in height. He still
wears a neck brace because of his neck injuries. When De Anglis (sp?) had his
fatal crash, Mansell ran to the scene and tried to rescue him from his burning
car but was beaten back by the heat.

Dave.

    
    Yup, he's the man who crashed while in the lead at Monaco and blamed
    it on the white line. He's the man who didn't stop and change his
    tyres and when the tyre blew it cost him the championship. He probably
    drives a Golf GTi....
    
    News from CEEFAX/ORACLE
    
    Tyrell and Yamaha have signed a 2 year deal and will be known as
    the Tyrell Yamaha team. Drivers to be announced.
    
    Gerhard Berger criticised 'our Nige' for letting Patrese through.
    
    Pacific Racing hope to have their new F1 car ready for January.
    
    Richard. 

�    Gerhard Berger criticised 'our Nige' for letting Patrese through.
    
    Sour grapes.
    
    Has he already forgotten the similar gesture by Senna, in his favour ?
    
    J.R.

    
    Not to mention that Patrese's win boosts, greatly, Williams' chance of
    taking 1-2 in the Driver's championship as well as the manufacturer
    title.
    
    Mark

    
    ....Berger said he hated it when Senna allowed him through....
    
    

Did Mansel let him through ? It wasn't just a problem with Mansels car ?

re.468:
    
>    Yup, he's the man who crashed while in the lead at Monaco and blamed
>    it on the white line. 

Err, he said he got a wheel on the white line where's the no grip...that's 
not the same as blaming the line. He was admitting his mistake.

>He's the man who didn't stop and change his tyres and when the tyre blew it
>cost him the championship.

There was no indication prior to the incident that the tyres would not go 
the distance.

My point is that Mansell IS a hero, what's yours?

Dave.

RE: a couple back

Significantly, I think that the team is going to be called Yamaha-Tyrrell
(and not the other way around).

RE: .468 Mansell not changing a tyre and losing the championship. Do you really
blame him for that incident or was it just a wind-up? I only ask because I
didn't see the smiley face...

Steve

    .474�Significantly, I think that the team is going to be called Yamaha-Tyrrell
    .474�(and not the other way around).
    
    Interesting ! Tyrrells will be powered by a Judd engine (V10) with the
    infamous 5-valve per cylinder heads that Yamaha have been trying to fit
    to every engine in the galaxy ...

    Another rumour: Alan Randall to acquire the remains of the Brabham
    team.

It amazes me that any F1 team would take on Yamaha engines after the last 2 or 3 
seasons. To me, Yamaha has been one of the bigger disappointments in F1. By most 
measurements, they would appear to have as much engine knowledge and technology as 
anyone, yet they have failed to come to grips with the problems. Jordan certainly 
has been a major let down this season. Have they scored a point? What I read into 
the announcement is that Ken is in desparate need of cash to continue, and Yamaha 
wants to stay in F1 at nearly any cost. Can Ken score points F1 points with these 
engines? Does he care?

Paul

RE: 458


Autosport, CEEFAX and BBC coverage. Actually.

    
    I'm not sure that anyone has mentioned about this Tyrrell yamaha deal.
    Its not really a Yammie engine, its a Judd that will have had some
    imput from Yamaha. Its a V10 and not the disaster that Yamaha have
    cursed Jordan with. I suppose it would class as a badge engineered
    engine.
    
    
    Garry 

�>    Yup, he's the man who crashed while in the lead at Monaco and blamed
�>    it on the white line. 

�Err, he said he got a wheel on the white line where's the no grip...that's 
�not the same as blaming the line. He was admitting his mistake.

    He didn't though. He was just going too fast. The video clearly shows
    that he was straddling the white line went the car went sideways into 
    the barrier. He'd lost control long before he touched the line.
    
�>He's the man who didn't stop and change his tyres and when the tyre blew it
�>cost him the championship.

�There was no indication prior to the incident that the tyres would not go 
�the distance.

    All the other leading cars had changed their tyres many laps before.
    Everyone was expecting him to change tyres too. He didn't. The rest
    is history.
    
�My point is that Mansell IS a hero, what's yours?

    Mansell maybe your hero, to me he's just a racing driver who can't
    admit his mistakes and doesn't give credit where it's due.
    
    Richard.

    
    I'm not sure that drivers are usually given the choice of when to
    change tyres (also as I recall, Prost changed tyres just AFTER
    Mansell's tyre blew), but there was no indication that the tyres were
    faulty until Rosberg's (?) went. One lap later, Mansell was due to come
    in for a tyre change (based on the failed tyre), but he never made it.
    
    I felt for Mansell that day, he deserved the championship that year and
    was still down-to-earth enough to be admirable. He deserved the
    championship this year, but I didn't feel that I really cared if he won
    it or not.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Presumably Prost was an idiot to drive for Renault and, later, Ferrari?

           <<< Note 1830.480 by MILE::JENKINS "Suitably refreshed" >>>

Your re-collection of the 'facts' is wrong.

>>  All the other leading cars had changed their tyres many laps before.
>>  Everyone was expecting him to change tyres too. He didn't. The rest
>>  is history.
  
No leading car planned on coming into the pits.

Rosberg punctured whilst running a strong first.

Mansell's tyre exploded two laps afterwards.

Piquet was brought into the pits straight away as a precaution.

Prost - who didn't change tyres - went on to win the race and pip Mansell and
Piquet for the championship.

Also, the decision to make a tyre change is made by Goodyear, the team, and
the driver - to state that the decision rests solely with the driver is
incorrect.  

You are entitled to your opinion about driver's capabilities - no matter how
coloured they may be. However you might use accurate information to
justify your point of view; there are many other incidents in Mansell's career
which you could use to add grist to your mill!

Cheers

Steve

>   He didn't though. He was just going too fast. The video clearly shows
>   that he was straddling the white line went the car went sideways into 
>   the barrier. He'd lost control long before he touched the line.

I don't have the video, so you have me at an advantage, I do remember the
commentary for the race (Hunt/Walker) giving the slippery white line as the
reason and I do not remember it being questioned at the time. Even if my
memory is faulty, I would not blame Mansell for wrongly thinking it was the
white line as it was a very slippery track, Mansell only took the lead because
of the attrition rate.

Dave.

    Re the tyres at Adelaide '86. What I remember is that Prost had a
    puncture before half distance. He changed tyres. Goodyear examined them
    and as a result of finding very low wear they advised their customers
    not to change. Then late on Rosberg's failed and (too late as it turned
    out) Goodyear advised a preventative change - except for Prost who of
    course had newer ones. Goodyear later found that there had been a
    faulty batch at Adelaide.

    re: .-2
    
    Dave you are the most consistant admirer of Mansell I've ever met.
    Congrats  :-)
    
    To me Mansell isn't a hero, any more than any and all are. Senna has a
    few heoric acts to his credit in the last season as well. Patrese get
    brownie points for wanting to race at all after his brush with death.
    
    Mansell is a great driver. No contest. But along with that he is
    exceedingly emotional and quite destructive in his opinions and
    comments. I didn't like what he said about Williams after Hungary.
    
    1) He had caused the problem by wanting better terms after the (now
    famous) "handshake" agreement in April (I think that included joint #1
    status with Prost).
    
    2) Mansell increased his demands as he saw himself as the new champion,
    but this didn't take into account the realities of the economic
    pressures facing F1 at present.
    
    3) He chose to negotiate and make his final decision in the hours
    before an important race. He was given an increased offer (with a time
    limit) but made further trivial demands.
    
    I find it unfortunate that Mansell has chosen to view this as some sort
    of personal slight by Williams; for me it has spoiled an otherwise
    excellent season for him and the team. Ample compensation for the
    catastrophe in '86.
    
    Only disappointments for Williams this year would have to be Patrese
    who has been remarkably inconsistant with some very ordinary drives
    marred by lapses in concentration (Spain, Germany, Italy, even Italy).
    
    I think Brundle is unlucky to be dropped by Benneton. Although a
    consistantly slower qualifier than Schumacher, he has had come
    consistent and hard drives to his credit.
    
    -Dave.

    
    White lines on road tracks have always had less than favorable comments 
    leveled at them. A Le Mans I have seen in interviews, many
    drivers complaining about the sudden loss of grip on the Mulsanne when
    crossing what would be the centre line. Drivers like Derek Bell have
    made this comment , he's not know as a whinger, and he also likes Le
    Mans. Also Being a motor cyclist I can appreciate that white lines are
    not always my best friend, I have known a normally docile bike to take
    a very strong dislike to them and Jump off !!!! I know Mansell normally
    finds an excuse for every thing but that one may be true.
    
    
    Garry

I've not got Mansellitis. I just see critics in here, most of whom would not
say boo to a goose, having a go at someone who has achieved great success
through personal sacrifice made possible by his tremendous courage. The failure
to appreciate Mansell's finer qualities, whilst concentrating on his outbursts
due to his highly sensitive and emotional nature, is very annoying. In fact,
I believe those who so knock successful people do it to raise their own limited
self-esteem from it's near gutter level.

Mansell continues as the most underated of F1 drivers.

Dave. 

�      <<< Note 1830.465 by VANGA::KERRELL "Dave Kerrell @REO 830-2279" >>>
�                              -< Boring? Never! >-

�	Mansell is a bleedin' 'ero.

�	Dave.

Dave, you're my hero.

Mike.

    .484�    course had newer ones. Goodyear later found that there had been a
    .484�    faulty batch at Adelaide.
    
    This is the most likely cause. The track (streets) is very smooth and
    does not wear tyres. It's got very little grip too.

2 rather long interviews in the November issue of 'Sport Auto'

Alain Prost

He was ready (with a group of people) to completely take over Ligier earlier
this year. Final decision by Guy not to sell was a disappointment to Alain but
this is history. Current discussions between Guy Ligier, Ron Dennis and Mansour
Ojjeh leave hime uninterested. He's part of the Williams team now and for two
years. Full stop.

Working with Williams is a complete change. Setting up the FW14B/FW15 is more
complicated than with a traditional car. Engineers have a key role.
 


Patrick Head

Some comments on the MacLaren-Renault discussions. What they need is a good
chassis. Adding the Renault won't necessarily help. BTW the Honda was not that
bad and certainly not inferior to the Renault for most of the 1992 season.

Williams have a 1993 car. Final design work will require 2 or 3% modifications
to components (new dimensions, tyres, wings). General balance is achieved. All
components are tested and proven. 1993 will mostly mean optimisations, no new
systems.

All the development work on the FW14B was done by Mark Blundell and later by 
Damon Hill. Mansell and Patrese have only raced the developed car. Haven't
done any developement. This is an area which will change completely with Prost
in the team. His contract specifies that he works on the car.

On Mansell: at the end of 1991 Nigel was convinced that he would win the 1991
title. Answering a few journalist questions on his future he said: I'll retire
immediately after I win the title. He did not win but we (Frank Williams and
Patrick Head) knew he would win the 1992 title and ... retire. So what really
happened this year was no surprise.

    
    re .487
    
    Mansell so loves F1 he's decided not to compete next year. Here is
    a man who says he loves his fans, but won't perform for them.
    Here is a man who couldn't agree to drive for Williams next year
    despite being offered a great deal of money and according to him
    a car in which even a "puppet" could win. 
    

    
    Re .491
    
    I agree that Mansell's comments on his fans and his love of F1 don't
    exactly tally with his actions, but I kind of admire his decision to
    quit the ratrace of F1 to go and drive the, seemingly, less political
    Indycar series for a fraction of his F1 price (Ok, $3M is more than I
    make a year, but... :^)).
    
    Maybe things did get a bit out of hand, but Williams did mess both
    Mansell and Patrese about. The Williams team's indecision of whether to
    hire or not hire either driver for '93 was the main reason for Patrese
    heading off to Benneton (where I hope he does very well) and for
    Mansell eventually heading off to pastures new. Whatever Mansell's
    fault in this situation (and given that he's known for being a bit
    emotional), the Williams team approached the '93 season signings with a
    definite lack of professionalism.
    
    Sometimes money isn't everything. Especially if you've already got more 
    than you can spend! :^)
    
    Mark

    A superb letter taken from this weeks A&M, without permission of
    course. In support of our Nige.


                 ==================================


			  FRENCH FARCE (or fart?)

    Frank Williams decision to sacrifice Nigel Mansell and Senna for
    Alan Prost is mind boggling.

    Just look at the Frenchmans record both in and out of the car. At
    Renault he fought with Rene Arnoux, at Maclaren he fell out with
    Senna and at Ferrari he first wound up Mansell and then the team -
    so much so that they fired the three times world champ.
 
    Don't forget that this is the man who stopped racing in the 1988
    British Grand Prix because he didn't like the weather, drove Senna
    off the Suzuka chicane in 1989 and managed to fall of the track 
    during the parade lap at Imola last year.

    Nige's grumbling pales in comparison.


                     ============================


    Hilarious but true. I'm still laughing now. Come back Nige, we miss
    your monotones.

    JN.

	How many of the people here have driven at a racing speed round a 
corner and HIT the paint on road in a car.
	
	Well I have and its Bl**!@#$%$ awful even at Silverstone. Because  the 
grid goes round Woodcote bend, you hit the paint strips at close to max speed
and on a corner. The first time scared the @#@$% out me, the car felt it was 
going to  slide  off into the stands. The car jumps sideways over each one.
	If any driver says he was unsettled going over a white line on a corner
thats good enough for me.

	A report on Classic FM this morning said that Jordan will
get the Hart V10 next year... maybe this has already been reported.
I waded back through the notes looking, but got bogged down amongst
the Mansell-slaggers.

re.491:

Who do you expect heroes to perform for you?  I think you are confusing heroes
with idols.

Dave.

    Re: previous
    
    I believe the reason Mansell did his Oliver impression (asking for
    more) was not only because he became certain of the championship, but
    because it gradually became apparent how much Frank Williams had agreed
    to pay Prost including all the fringe benefits (e.g. the famous hotel
    rooms for guests).
    
    JohnK

    last night on CEEFAX...
    
    A report that Renault are saying no to McLaren having one aor any
    of their engines next year.
    
    
    Terry B.

    
    
    ....that CEEFAX report also said that Senna would not drive for
    McLaren next season unless they had a competitive engine.
    
    
    

John Watson in CEEFAX is saying...

  That he wouldn't be suprised to see a certain Sir Nigel Mansell DFC, ETC.,
  lining-up on the grid in South Africa next year!

  He feels that pressure is being applied to make it happen. How it
  can happen is another matter, though, he added.




Terry B

    
    On Brekky TV this morning, our Nige in Oz said he's keeping his options
    for next year open !!!
    
    Today's Daily Exp reports that Williams are offering �10m to
    Newman-Haas to free Nige from his contract.  Why didn't they just offer
    him that in the first place ??
    
    
    
    Nev.

    
    Coz he wanted 23m?
    
    Mark

    I bet Nigel can just sit back until the last moment and then take the
    biggest offer.
    
    EASY LIFE!
    
    Greg

    .503   why not he's earned it
    
    		GLF

That's right.

It seems that, maybe, he's played the best card of them all.

The F1 powers-that-be seem to think a Mansell in the fray is a good
idea for 1993. Certainly the Williams sponsors would prefer it
if they had two World Champions carrying their colours.

Yes, he can just sit and wait, and if he decides to go to the IndyCar
gang, then so what. He 'seems' to be relishing the prospect of that
particular challenge. After all, if you are a king in America, it is
media super stardom, and equivelant to being king of the rest-of-the-world.

Ayrton has only got the choice of McLaren or the beach for 93. (or do
we still include Ferarri with his options?)

But what about McLaren?


Terry B

Trust me ... King of America is NOT King of the World.  You really think that
Bobby Rahal is more popolar than Ayrton Senna or Alain Prost or Nigel Mansell?
I don't think so ...

				-- Carlos

I don't usually answer these, but...


I was aluding to the fact that in the world of Pop or Rock, if you have a hit
in America then you needn't worry about the rest of the world. Same goes for
the movie world. Go West, young man, seems to be the order of the day
if you want to be BIG.

Terry.

RE: .507

But that's not true in Motor Sport.  Almost zero celebrity status with 
the general population accrues to success in Motor Sport, and the majority of 
that recognition is of NASCAR Winston Cup drivers.  Your average American, when 
asked about Formula One, will likely respond, "Formula WHAT?"  IndyCar is 
nearly as obscure.  The names "Unser" and "Andretti" are well-known, but few in 
the general populace are aware that those cars race anywhere other than in the 
Indianapolis 500.

Unless Mansell were to drive a stock car and spend a year or two winning races 
by turning left on ovals, the US general populace reaction to his presence will 
be, "Nigel Who?"

--PSW

    It's been reported bere that Benetton have bought half of TWR for 60m
    (pounds). This money is to be used for "unspecified engineering
    projects".
    
    Another sign of the fortunes of TWR and Benetton becoming inextricably
    linked. Any guesses where the money will be spent ?
    
    -Dave.

    Any odds on Senna going to Ferrari? now that a lot of the dust is
    settling?
    
    				GLF

RE; 508



...well, he might as well stay in F1 then, which is looking to be a 
more viable option as time goes by.

According to BBC tv intreview on Saturday, Mansell confessed to knowing
about behind the scenes moves to buy his contract from Newman-Haas.

He added that he wasn't party to it. He had made commitments and would honour
them, but if his contract was sold, then...

Rumours are rife that Williams will be the likely home for him in 93,
that Bernie 'Mr Formula 1' Ecclestone is in the USA now to negotioate things
for Mansells 'return'....


This hot potatoe will keep us warm through the dull winter months.


Terry B.

Is it good or bad for the sport ? It certainly gets people talking and
watching, so perhaps the circus is no bad thing.

I'm sure the sponsors are happy too. Every time Mansell opens his mouth,
the press are there, and up goes his picture on the TV screen, adverts
to the fore !!! It would cost them a lot more than that to get prime-time
TV advertising ...

    My betting on Senna is a year off followed by a return in '94 with a
    Honda team, ie, chassis, engine the lot. The one thing against his
    taking a sabbatical is that I reckon he is feeling that someone should
    give Prost a run for his money. I hope that Ron can convince him that
    either a Ford HB or maybe a Renault V10 in a McLaren chassis, plus the
    regs changes for downforce, tyres etc (and Prost's lack of racing for
    12 months)will close the gap to the  Williams team to a manageable one
    and allow him to race on almost equal terms.
    
    Current Status:
    
    Williams	Renault		Prost		TBA
    Tyrrell	Yamaha-Judd	De Cesaris	TBA (Katayama?)
    McLaren	TBA		Andretti	TBA
    ?Brabham?
    Footwork	Honda-Mugen	Warwick		Suzuki
    Lotus	Ford HB		Herbert		Hakinnen
    ?Fondmetal?
    March	Ilmor?		Frentzen	TBA
    Benetton	Ford HB		Schumacher	Patrese
    Scud-Lola	Ferrari		Alboreto?	TBA
    Minardi	TBA		Fittipaldi	TBA
    Ligier	Renault?	TBA		TBA
    Ferrari	Ferrari		Berger		Alesi
    Larrouse	Lamborghini	Gachot		(Katayama?)
    Jordan	Hart V10	(Barrichello?)	TBA
    Pacific	Ford HB?	TBA		TBA
    Sauber	Ilmor		Wendlinger	Lehto
    
    Other Possible Teams -
    
    The Japanese one (can't remember the name)
    A Spanish funded one with a Simtek chassis
    
    And in 1994 or 95 - TOMS Toyota
    
    Current Drivers wanting a seat
    
    Brundle, Capelli, Martini, Morbidelli, Naspetti, Lammers, Boutsen,
    Comas, Grouillard, Modena, Gugelmin
    
    Waiting in the wings
    
    Blundell, Hill, Moreno, Unser, Badoer, McCarthy, Tarquini, Larini,
    Gene, Brabham (x2!), Salo, plus any number of F3000 (Int'l & Japanese)
    pilots, and possible F3 champions like de Ferran
    
    paul

Eurosport were linking Hakinnen with Williams/Renault this weekend ...

    Interesting piece in Autoweek this week.  SUpposedly a meeting in
    Europe discussed:  raising F1 weight minimum to 550 KG; limiting revs
    to 13,000; spec fuel; ban on semi-auto boxes, active suspension,
    electronic traction control, advanced carbon fiber construction
    technique, etc.  Any details on this?
    
    

	Comments from Prost, on French TV, about Mansell's contract
	being bought for 2 Million pounds:

	"Mansell's participation in F1 next year is the best that can happen
	for the interest of that sport. However, I wish we'd stop making it
	a question of money. "2 Million pounds" is mad, ridiculous. It can't 
	be done, since that doesn't include Mansell's salary. F1 is more and
	more seen by the general public as just a world of big business and 
	little sport. If Mansell is to come back in F1, let it be for other 
	reasons than money."
		(or words to that effect)

	Regards.
		Pierre  

 
 >>   Interesting piece in Autoweek this week.  SUpposedly a meeting in
 >>   Europe discussed:  raising F1 weight minimum to 550 KG; limiting revs
 >>   to 13,000; spec fuel; ban on semi-auto boxes, active suspension,
 >>   electronic traction control, advanced carbon fiber construction
 >>   technique, etc.  Any details on this?
   
Oh yes... and change the name to F3000!!!!!

Come on, we have restricted classes of racing, and plenty of them. Lets
not make F1 into another one. There is space for one formula where
technology is allowed to explore new avenues. perhaps what would spice
up formula 1 is to limit the number of races (that costs the teams plenty)
shorten the season (people's interest cannot be sustained for a March
to November season), and encourage drivers to "do" races other than formula 1.
Once upon a time, top nuch F1 drivers did the Indy, Le Mans, classic road
races, even F2.

Ok, end of my tirade, I just think that the whole F1 circus is what is
broken, not the car technology.

Terry

Per the rule changes: what was reported on the F1 broadcast here in the US was 
simply that the council was meeting to discuss possible rule changes. Nothing else 
was reported, certainly nothing like what is in the note here.

I agree that there are a number of "limited formulas" in racing, and the rule 
changes suggested here sound like F3000. F1 has more serious problems - but 
runaway technology is in the mix. In the past 10 years, the guys with the best 
technology have won - no dominated. And it's made for rather boring races and 
seasons. In the past 10 years I can remember only a few memorable races where the 
racing was tight and the drivers/cars nearly equal. At the very minimum, Indycars, 
for all there restrictions, provide a great deal more excitement and close racing.  
I, for one, find the Indycar season much more interesting from the racing stand 
point. The technology isn't nearly as interesting, but most folks don't give two 
hoots about the technology - the noters here are the exception (and the minority).

As also noted earlier, success in America will get you something if you're a 
musician, but I don't think it means much in motorsports. Take a look at the 
average American big city newspaper and you'll get the idea. In the sports section 
there will be page after page on football, baseball and basketball - and a three 
paragraph item on the last GP or Indycar race. Nigel may do well next year. I 
expect he will - he's a racer. But he won't be any more well known than any other 
fellow in the sport, unless he wins at Indy. Then maybe 3% of the population will 
recognize him.

Paul

    	The Economist has some interesting things to say about F1 vs Indy
    racing and pointed out that the career of the top drivers tends to be
    a far bit shorter in F1, tending to finish in the late 30's while the
    Indy car drivers tend to carry on much longer.  Also, don't the winning
    drivers get the prize money themselves, rather than the team?

    Re Bernie dealing with Indy - perhaps he could swap Senna with Mansell,
    given the position that Senna will only go to Williams (in F1) but
    can't go with Prost there. This could certainly be possible if Honda go
    to Indy because Senna's ties are stronger with Honda than with McLaren.
    
    One problem, I can't remember if the Indy rules allow you to punt other
    drivers off the track with impunity - could be a problem for Senna if
    they don't!

    To be quite honest there is more "punting" in Indy cars than there is
    in F1, so maybe he would feel right at home.  ;^)
    
    regards,
    JP.  
    
    PS:Is there going to be a trophy to the driver who did the best with
    what he had!!!!Alesi should win this one.

I'd disagree about Indycars punting more than F1. O don't believe that can be 
substantiated, at least not for the last few, say 5, seasons.

My understanding is that Indycar drivers get a portion of the purse, usually about 
40%. That may vary from team to team though.

Paul

    Well lets see, how many cars went out during the Indianapolis 500
    because they hit someone else?  In Toronto, Mario tried to take out 1
    and Al Jr. tried to take someone out, and then there was the Sweedish
    driver who took Rahal etc, etc, etc.  since I dont have any stats i'll
    just keep my mouth shut from now on.

    .518� success in America will get you something if you're a musician 
    
    Yes, because you'll sell records. If you sing in french, german or
    italian you'll only sell to a percentage of the population that speaks
    the language.
    
    Just like racing, performing on a stage does not earn money anymore.
    Actually all top artists are losing money on their 'world tours' but
    this is viewed as promotion to sell records (the only making-money
    activity in show business).
    
    Same in the movie business.

    The TF1 reporters said that Bernie Ecclestone was offering Newman-Haas
    12M$ to have Mansell return to F1. Since Bernie himself does not want
    to pay 12M$ (and FISA does not have 12M$ in its pocket) he went to meet
    all F1 teams and asked them for a participation. No idea of how much he
    could raise ...
    
    Newman-Haas answered that 16M$ was the minimum offer (to start
    discussing) 

A little bit off the beam but...

A report in some American magazine ranks Mansell as the worlds fourth
highest earning sportsman behind a basketball player, the World Heavyweight
boxing Champ and Ayrton Senna.

So, he's not moving to America for the money or a top 10 hit.



Terry B

      Saw a list in the paper of 40 highest paid athletes.
    Michael Jordan was first at 35.9 mil, then Holyfield (boxing) at 
    28.3, then Senna and Mansell at $22 and $14.5 respectively,
    with Berger and Patrese in 12th and 16th with 8 and 7.5.
    
      As far as F1's popularity in the States, I was shocked to hear
    the results of a race on a Boston radio station, but then not
    surprised to hear the announcer butcher every driver's name mentioned.
    
    KC

    Other bits:
    
    - Patrick Faure, Renault Sports, officially announced that Renault
      Sport would not supply engines to McLaren in 1993. He added that a long
      term agreement was being discussed with Williams. Announcement made
      at Adelaide.
    
    - Alain Guillon, Elf, added that Ron Dennis was only interested in a
      temporary 1-year (1993) supply. Elf was the real blocking factor.
    
      - Renault were ready to supply engines
      - Ligier were happy to get $$$ and lots of goodies (auto gearbox,
        reactive suspension, power steering, electronic throttle) free  
      - MacLaren, supposedly, would have replaced Shell by Elf in 1993
    
      Elf have been the supporting force behind the french motor sport for
    the last 25 years. They're still trying to get something done (Prost ?)
    and they did not want to give away too much.
    
    [That's what I heard Alain Guillon say]
                                           

I heard that report about Bernie wanting to offer Newman-Haas money to buy out 
Mansell's contract. As reported here, it's pretty funny that Bernie had to enlist 
the help of the teams. I wonder how they felt about his approaching them? Still, 
what's missing is the fact that Nige would have to agree. I mean, it's starting to 
sound like slavery. I'm looking forward to Mige in Indycars. He should be a hit. 
Though he may not be coming to America for the $$$, he'll certainly have an easier 
time and schedule. He'll be able to play golf all year, and spend a lot more time 
at home during the season, something he claims is important to him. Good for him!

As for my comment about cars getting punted: sure, there were lot's of crashes 
this year at Indy, but no one suggested that they were intentional. The way it 
read in the notes here, Senna's crash was intentional. I disagree. I also do not 
believe that any of this year's Indy crashes were intentional. I think that was 
the point.

Paul

    Must be the language barrier, I thought punting just meant being hit by
    aonther car so that it got shoved off the track.  If punting means an
    intentional hit then I must agree that Indy cars do not intentionally
    put other people out.  As a matter of fact it appears to the regular
    person that Indy teams can actually work together when they need or
    have to.  I think Nige will enjoy the environment much better over here
    than in F1 (and all the power to him).  As for Senna intentionally
    putting Nige out, I don't think so, maybe Nige should have put his hand
    up to show Senna that he was going to brake.      ;^)
    
    Apologies for mis-interpreting "punting".
    
    regards,
    JP
    
      

Bernie Ecclestone might well be approaching Carl Haas to buy out Nigel 
Mansell's contract, but I think he's only fooling himself if he thinks that 
will bring Mansell back to F1.  Nigel already has been offered the opportunity 
to drive a Wiliams if he wants to, on his terms, and he has turned it down 
because he doesn't like the way that Frank Williams has treated him during the 
negotiations (don't really blame him, either).  So Bernie thinks that if he 
forces Nigel out of IndyCars by buying out his contract with Newman/Haas, that 
Nigel will come back to drive in F1?  To the contrary, I think that Bernie or 
anybody else trying to force Mansell back to F1 is the best possible way of 
insuring that he doesn't return.

--PSW

RE: -.1

It depends how it is being done. Mansell responds very strongly to ego
tickling, and if it appears to Mansell that the world cannot survive without
him then this approach is likely to at least tempt him.

Anyway, with the #1 not being used next season and Prost saying nice things
about Mansell (unfortunately not reciprocated), it would appear that there is a
concerted, coordinated effort to woo him back - of which Ecclestones's
initiative is the merely the latest example.

No matter what people in this notes conference may personally think of Mansell,
he is phenomenally popular in the world at large and makes a lot of money for
the circus - that is why Ecclestone is pursuing him. Mind you, he's being
optimistic if he thinks that the other F1 teams will dip in. In particular Ken
Tyrrell was castigating Mansell over the weekend ('wasn't like that in my day,
bring back the good old times when I could get a competitive DFV from
Northamption for �7,500' etc.)

Cheers

Stephen

    In a recent interview in L'Equipe magazine, Alain Prost stated that
    Williams asked him to give up a chunk of his salary so that it could be
    paid to Mansell in 93. Prost claims that he agreed to this.
    
    It all happened on race morning at Monza, just before Mansell's
    impromptu press conference. Could this have been Williams' last-ditch
    effort to keep Mansell in the fold? Anyhow, it failed.
    
    Salut,
    Ed.

    A spanish F1 team is ready to enter the 1993 circus. 
    
    Team BRAVO will be using the own chassis design powered by the same
    Judd-Yam engine as Team Tyrrell. Adrian Campos, once F1 driver in the
    Minardi team, will manage racing operations.
    
    BRAVO drivers ? Boutsen's name has been put on top of the list. 
    
    Boutsen, like Mansell, is seriously thinking of going to Indycar
    racing (seems to indicate that his long term contract with Renault is
    broken ...).  

In an interview with Larry Edsall (Autoweek, November 16, 1992), Max Mosely 
talked about having a permanent F1 race at Indy beginning sometime during his
current four-year term.  Apparently, Max is high on Tony George (currently
President of his family-owned Indianapolis Speedway), and hopes that a permanent
track which contains the Indy straight could be built for F1 racing.  He 
speculates that the race would kick off a month of racing at Indy in early May,
culminating with the Indy 500 on the last Sunday in May.

Max also seemed determined to bridge the gap between F1 and the US.  He was 
really entralled with the US marketplace and was sensitive to European racing
traditions.  Did you know that F1 racing is the third-most expensive and 
commands the largest audiences of all sporting events?  After the Olympics and
the Worl Cup Soccer tournament - and they are held every 4 years!!!  Just a 
few stats from good old Max ...

RE: .534

According to rec.autos.sport, Team Bravo will be using a very much modified 
version of the car design that Andrea Moda ran (if that's the appropriate 
word) this year.  Let's hope they have the budget to make it a serious effort, 
not the embarrassing joke that Andrea Moda was this year.

--PSW

    .536�According to rec.autos.sport, Team Bravo will be using a very much modified 
    .536�version of the car design that Andrea Moda ran (if that's the appropriate 
    
    Correct. The company that designed the Andrea (Sassetti) Fashion cars
    is called Simtek and belongs to ... Max Mosley. I don't exactly know
    whether team Bravo will be using new chassis or just modified 92
    designs.
    
    The Andrea Moda affair was a real laugh right from the beginning.
    Andrea Sassetti thought that buying from current F1 president would
    secure good results. He's only lost several 10s of M$. Is Bravo going
    to the same results ? Possible. 

    .535�current four-year term.  Apparently, Max is high on Tony George (currently
    .535�President of his family-owned Indianapolis Speedway), and hopes that a permanent
    .535�track which contains the Indy straight could be built for F1 racing.  He 
    
    Sounds a good idea. Indy, together with Le Mans and Monaco, is a very
    popular place worldwide.
    
    Can they build a F1 track inside the speedway ? Probably, but will the
    public be able to see the F1 cars from the current grandstands ? Do
    they need to build new ones ?

    .377�04 Apr	Asia		Autopolis
    
    As expected the calendar has to be modified. The Autopolis GP is
    cancelled. Several reasons for that: Autopolis belongs to some japanese
    mafiosi, Autopolis is far away and difficult to reach, Autopolis only
    offers one hotel and basically nothing for either the F1 jet set or
    simply for the crowd of visitors, Autopolis went bankrupt several times
    in order to find new owners, ... Now, it's clear that there will be no
    GP in the near future.
    
    Bernie E. is actively looking at several other possibilities (USA,
    Japan, ...) and I'm confident that he will find a replacement.
    
    The real winner is Flavio Briatore (Benetton team manager) who managed
    to have Autopolis pay 10M$ for the Benettons to carry big Autopolis
    signs for the last 2 years .... 

If Tony George builds a road course at Indy and brings in F1, he'll have scored a 
big coup. It would be the best chance F1 has for success in the US. The 
association with the 500 can only help.

But there are a number of racing "traditionalists" who are not in favor of the 
plan. In fact, they are against having the NASCAR boys race there. They claim it 
dilutes the image and aura of Indy. Hmmm?

I guess I'm not a traditionalist. If it's good for racing, I'm in favor of it.

Paul

    Scuderia Italia have confirmed that their 1993 drivers will be Michele
    Alboreto and Luca Badoer (Euro F3000 champion). With Lehto gone to
    Sauber already (who have broken the Barcelona lap record in testing!)
    this leaves PL Martini currently without a drive. I wouldn't be
    surprised to see him back at Minardi alongside Fitttipaldi.
    
    Paul

Yes, those Sauber times are quite impresive, aren't they?

Senna still not making anything official. Saying that when he has all the
information to be able to make a decision, then he will and will
tell the world.

Rumours have Senna at Ferarri with Berger and Alesi going to Williams,
or joining Alesi at Ferarri with Berger going to Williams. There is also
strong talk of the Brazilian coming back in 1994 driving a Honda-Honda.

Nigel seems set on driving in America next year, maybe returning to F1
in 94 (if anyone will have him!). In the current edition of Autosport
you can send off for Mansell-Newman-Haas merchandise already!

The Didcot team having resigned themselves to being Mansell-less are
supposed to have Patrese and Hakinnen at the top of their shopping
list for the vacancy. Lotus are being as obstinate as they were when
Herbert was put in the frame a while ago. Riccardo is saying all the
right and proper things; I am a Benetton driver, unless the management
make a deal that changes things, etc.

And Reynard are still keeping an F1 involvment via a deal to provide
composites and tub fabrication for Pacific -- should Pacific get
the backing to go ahead for the coming season.


terry

>    Can they build a F1 track inside the speedway ? Probably, but will the
>    public be able to see the F1 cars from the current grandstands ? Do
>    they need to build new ones ?

From my tour of Indy it will be very possible for them to build a track on 
the inside except for the area used by the golf course (which I believe is 
or was undergoing major reconstruction possibly to accomodate a road 
course).  The interior grandstands are, for the most part, easily 
disassembled so they could be either removed or rotated.

As to .542, I thought that Indy was on the 1993 NASCAR schedule.  If it 
isn't it will be in 1994.

My thoughts are that Tony G. would like to see Indy being used for more 
than 1 race a year (although it is a months worth of activity).  With a 
NASCAR and F1 race besides the 500 he would really increase his revenue.  I 
suspect he would lose 5%-10% of his 500 crowd but the NASCAR race would 
bring in 75% of 500 race day over the weekend and F1 would bring in about 
50%.

Jilly

    What credence to the news that 'some ' constructors want to delay the
    start of the '93 season?
    
    		GLF

    
    Autopolis has been canned and the liklyhood of there being 15 races in
    93 is a possibility . Was that near the front end of the season ??
    
    

    .539�    Bernie E. is actively looking at several other possibilities (USA,
    .539�    Japan, ...) and I'm confident that he will find a replacement.
    
    One of the candidates is .... Moscow.

	An article in the French sports journal L'Equipe indicates that
   Ron Dennis and McLaren are close to announcing their plans following the
   loss of the Honda engine. 

   For 1993 Mclaren would use a 'customer' Ford engine (like Lotus).

   However, for 1994 onwards the team would enter into a long term agreement
   with AUDI.

    Re: GP in Moscow.
    
    Yes, I can see it now. Moscovites leaving the queues at the bread shops
    to buy tickets for the GP. They wouldn't pay cash, they'd pay with
    vodka.
    
    The circuit would be interesting as well. The hairpin would be arranged
    around a statue of ... a beaming boris.
    
    The pace car would be a lada with go-faster bits like side stripes,
    wheels painted to look like alloys and a bonnet air scoop.
    
    :-)
    
    -Dave.

    Some bits from various places
    
    - Moscow officials seem very serious about having a F1 race asap. If
      not in 1993 it will be 1994. A temporary street circuit has been
      drawn downtown Moscow. A permanent road circuit is also being planned
      somewhere in the suburbs.
    
    - Senna made some declarations recently (around the launch of his new
      yacht). Here are the main lines: 'I could very well join Mansell in
      Indycar racing next season, I believe I still have a chance with
      Williams and with Ferrari, I wish I had signed the McLaren contract'
      Sounds like the McLaren doors are shut.
    
    - Sauber have tested both their 1992 and 1993 cars at Paul Ricard. This
      time both drivers (Wendlinger and Lehto) were present. The cars were
      using this year's Ilmor V10. Next year's 72 degree engine is stil being
      prepared by Mario Ilien.
      Lehto managed 1'04"70 with little experience of the car (to be compared
      with Prost's 1'03"13 with the 1993 Williams).
    
    - Guy Ligier is about to sell Ligier cars (or a good portion of it) to
      finance tycoon Cyril de Rouvre. The move is certainly a political one
      Early 1993 the parliament (and the government and maybe the president)
      will change colours (from left to right). Guy Ligier is well for his
      links with president Miterrand and with many left wing leaders. Mr de
      Rouvre on the opposite is a right wing champion.
      This move may mean survival for the Ligier team.

    Bernard Dudot and Renault-Sport are very anxious.
    
    A Renault V10 engine that was displayed at a trade show is missing and
    could not be traced. This was not a real race engine but it was built
    with real parts meaning that the one who stole it knows exactly what's
    in it (shapes and dimensions).
    
    The engine could have been stolen for
    
    	- a competitor (Honda, McLaren, Ford, ...)
    	- a collector
    
    Dudot wishes the second alternative is the right one ... 

    Bernie E. and FISA have announced the following calendar modifications
    
    - GP of South Africa, Kyalami moves to 14 Mar (instead of 28 Feb)
    - GP of Brazil, Interlagos    moves to 28 Mar (instead of 14 Mar)
    - GP of Asia, Autopolis, Japan, is replaced by GP of Europe, Donington
      14 Apr
    
    - GP of Russia, Moscow is being offered for 15 Aug 1993 as a possible
      replacement for Budapest, Hungary in financial trouble.

�    - GP of Asia, Autopolis, Japan, is replaced by GP of Europe, Donington
�      14 Apr
    
    So, Donington get a GP at long last.
    
    Any chance that Brands Hatch will get the GP Of Europe the following year ?
    
    J.R.

    
    I personally would prefere brands to silverstone but I suspect that
    it's unlikly. That is of course unless changes they planned at brands 
    makes it more acceptable in terms of saftey. Maybe if someone jacked up
    one end at silverstone it would be more intresting.
    
    	Garry.
    

�    I personally would prefer Brands to Silverstone
    
    So would I.  Since there was some 'deal' done a few years ago, which
    excluded Brands Hatch from the running, I cannot see how Brands can
    do all the circuit mods they would require to oust Silverstone (note
    that holding the GP every year brings a lot of money in to the circuit).
    But, since G.P. Of Europe is being held at Donington (as per earlier
    reply), I wonder if that will be alternated between Brands Hatch and
    Donington circuits in successive years ?  Would be a good solution...
    
    J.R.

Things are getting tight for the F1 'circus' - as shown by the venue problems.
Budapest had a terrible turnout last year - the locals simply cannot afford it.
I would think that Russia would have similar problems...

Here's some ideas that MGB might well look into.

o Perhaps Brands Hatch could have the GP of England?
o Dijon could restore the Swiss GP.
o Why did Mexico disappear this year - is it in the running for a comeback?
o German interest in F1 is going to be sky-high for the next few years - a 
  second GP close to home should be winner. E.g. the EEC GP at the Nurburgring.

Steve

    Re Mexico....
    
    They may be back in 1994 with a new circuit being built at Monterrey.
    
    Re Brands
    
    There is no way it'll have a GP in the foreseeable future, the
    facilities are not good enough and the track is not wide enough. Nicola
    (I love motor racing - honestly, now where do you want that new house?
    Snetterton?) Foulston is planning a major redesign of the circuit, but
    local residents may well cause it to be scrubbed.
    
    Paul

    
    The only reason I know of for Mexico was the surface. It's too bumpy by
    far. I can only assume that the mexicans had no intention of
    resurfacing that's why they lost the race. Maybe there were some track
    changes too.  Brands Hatch is too intresting by far , can't have nice
    intresting tracks, gotta have boring tracks like, Monaco,
    Hungaroring, Silverstone. Come to think of it Donnington is a bit on
    the intresting side. It's about time sport ruled Motorsport and not
    Money!!!
    
    Garry
    

    Re BH
    
    Sad to say, I agree that BH is never going to have a GP until it does
    some pretty radical things. They've done the most important thing in
    the current era, which is to build an enormous new hospitality/press/
    FISA office building. Then they've got to do new pits, and there's no
    way the current F1 paddock/pits is big enough. Then there's circuit
    safety, and the geography won't really take the required run-off areas.
    The only thing they can forget is the spectators (but that's certainly
    not anything that seems to matter now).
    
    If I was Nicola F., I'd try to persuade the Indy cars to stop off for a
    race on the way back from Aussie. I bet they'd get a bigger crowd than
    either of the British GPs next year.
    
    As -.1 said, Donnington should be very interesting. I'd guess they'll
    have to put a LOT of grandstands up, and I'd expect the mother of all
    queues to get into that approach road off exit 24 of the M1. My Dad
    went to the pre-war GPs there in '37 and '38, won by Rosemeyer and
    Nuvolari in their Auto Unions - he says there were phenomenal crowds
    even by today's standards, and that those German cars were really
    spectacular.
    
     

RE: .555, .557

There were two main reasons for the loss of the Mexican venue:  (1) the state 
of the circuit surface and other facilities, and (2) the air pollution problem 
in and around Mexico City.  It's too bad, IMO the Mexican GP has provided some 
of the most exciting racing in F1 in the last few years.  You can even PASS on 
that circuit!

--PSW

Yes, Mexico is built on the site of a former lake, and is subject to steady
subsidence.

Todays Times reports that Williams may have been last in sumbitting its team
entry for 1993.

" One Italian sports magazine has reported that on Nov 20 a fax was sent from FISA 
to Williams refusing the team's entry because it had not arrived within 
seven days of the final Grand Prix of the 1992 season."

Frank denies this saying his entry was sumbitted to FOCA "as Bernie Ecclestone
can confirm"

The Time article also reports that ELF has taken FISA to court in France but
gives no more details other than judgement is due on Dec 16 and that Williams
is at odds with FISA over rule changes - including a 3 year ban on further 
technological development.


Make what you will of the above.

	Dave

    re: circuits
    
    I too would love to see F1 cars back at Brands. I used to go there
    almost every weekend when I was a kid. But it's way off meeting current
    safety requirements. Remember the disasterous F3000 fiasco there a
    couple of years ago...
    
    I will be very sad to see the Hungarian race go. Even though the
    circuit does not look all that good, it seems to have produced a damn
    good GP almost every year since 1986.
    
    I'm not surprised about Mexico. That banked corner just before the pits
    is horrifying. Just ask Philippe Alliot or Ayrton Senna.
    
    As things stand, it's very much a case of matching circuits to cars. I
    would be happy to see slower cars on more interesting circuits. There
    are very few exciting circuits currently used by F1. I think that Spa
    and Suzuka are probably the only exceptions. Bring back shirt sleeves,
    cloth helmets, thin tyres, the real Spa, the real N�rburgring, Rouen
    Les Essarts, Montjuich Park, Zandvoort, Monza without the chicanes,
    etc... Dream on.
    
    Ed.

    
    Re: The F3000 crash at Brands.
    
    That was an interesting accident, as it was, as I recall, on a
    straight.
    
    There are a number of circuits used by F1 cars with narrow straights.
    
    I admit that Brands has poor run-off in places (Paddock for one and a
    number at the back of the GP circuit and anyone at that Sportscar race
    will recall Mass' crash at the corner before the pit straight), but it
    isn't really much worse than other circuits (Stefan Bellof was killed
    at Spa, but they continue to race there, thankfully).
    
    They really should try to slow down the cars, otherwise the inevitable
    result will be ovals or tracks where only the TV cameras will be close
    enough to see the cars.
    
    Mark

    Heard on the French radio this morning. Apparently the French GP is in
    doubt this year. JMB has made the pronouncement. No other news.
    
    Does someone have any further info?
    
    			George Frost

    Guy Ligier has sold his stake in the Ligier team to French businessman
    Cyril de Rouvre, who already held a number of shares. This effectively
    means that Guy Ligier is relinquishing his control of the team. The
    reasons he gave included his age, and his problems in securing
    finanical support. More to the point, a lot of Ligier's support
    currently comes from state-owned companies and Guy Ligier is very
    chummy with president Mitterand. The chances are that the government
    will change hue in the general elections next March. Mr. de Rouvre has
    a number of close contacts in what is currently the opposition...
    
    The cars will still be called Ligiers, and they will still be Renault
    powered.                                                         
    
    Salut,
    Ed.

	Re. 564 
	>> Heard on the French radio this morning. Apparently the French GP 
	>> is in doubt this year. JMB has made the pronouncement. 

	Heard again JMB interview on French radio this morning. Reason why
	French GP is in doubt is because of very strict and severe anti-
	tobacco advertising laws in France. JMB received a letter from
	FISA demanding him to guarantee that no car should be seized by
	government officials before the GP: French law specifies that not
	only tobacco brand names are prohibited on cars, but also all 
	distinctive signs. Which means that you shouldn't see a blue
	camel on yellow background, or a white dancing gitan on blue
	background, nor should you see a car painted in white whith 
	a kind of red geometrical cap, the way Senna and Berger cars 
	are decorated. 

	So virtually there should be very few cars for the GP: JMB has 
	no power whatsoever over antitobacco trusts. Which means that
	he cannot give the FISA a favorable answer.

	As to Monaco: the same antitobacco law obviously applies to 
	trucks carrying the cars. Which means that they won't be allowed
	on French roads. All cars will have to get to Monaco by sea (there's
	no airport in Monaco): far too slow and mutually exclusive with 
	F1 requisites.

		Cdly
			Pierre  
   

Former British Formula 3 Champion Rubens Barrichelo from Brazil has
been signed to drive for Sasol Jordan next year. According to the
CEEFAX report, he is still only 20 years old!.

Jordan have not resigned either of last years drivers Gugelmin or Modena.


Terry.