Conference terri::cars_uk

    I read a recent review (cant remember what magazine) - they said it was
    as quick as a R5GTT or Pug 1.9, but lacked the all-round greatness of
    the other 2.  It is, apparently, an infinitely better car than the
    XR2i, tho let down by dead steering and average handling.
    
    I think the summing up was something like "it takes more than
    acceleration and top speed to make a great car".
    
    I am becoming even more cynical about road test reports however, so why
    not go and try one.  Hope you like it.
    
    
    John

    
    At 3 grand more than a Renault 5 GT Turbo, it would need to be a hell
    of a lot better!
    
    I wonder what the press response to the forthcoming Escort RS Cosworth 
    will be?
    
    Mark

    


    Re. 2 Mark (hello again)
    
    The Fiesta is the same price as the 1.9 pug, which is much cheaper 
    than the price originally quoted in the motoring mags. 

    Having been just quoted 10,550 by Mann Egerton, with no PX for a
    5GTT (not Raider) there's about a thousand pounds in it. No comment
    though about which car is better ;-)
    
    Re .0 
    There's a review in last weekends Autosport and I think there was
    one in Autocar as well. But as .1 said. Drive it, don't read about
    it.

    

I read the review in A&M, and they said something about 30-70mph time being
slower than the Pug Git, and the same as the "indecently fast" R5GTT!

Mark.

	I was able to drive the new Fiesta Turbo last night, My friend's Dad 
 works for FORD SVE. The car looks very nice except for a very tacky green 
 stripe down the side (this was on a metallic blue one). It's exterior bodywork 
 has a selection of bits off other fast hatches, the rear top spoiler is exactly
 the same a R5GTT one! Interior is ok, electric window controls on console 
 (again same as R5GTT). Front seats are Recero's (spelling). Only thing really 
 missing was a turbo boast gauge. Everything else was standard Ford sports 
 layout.
	The suspension is very stiff, handling around corners not quite as good 
and predictable as the R5GTT, acceleration is good (still slower than market 
leaders)

	I guess depending on price that Ford have developed a winner, mainly 
because of be able to have ABS as an extra and also the performance will be 
easily increase as I believe the Engine is the same as that in the RS Escort.

	One thing is for sure it couldn't keep up with the R5Gtt around country 
lanes or on the straight as I proved last night (tut tut)

	If I was buying a fast Hatch now I think that the R5GGt would just win 
over the Fiesta but its close !!!


Badger

    Thanks Guys for your input.
    
    I am interested in the R5GTT but there are 3 things against it that I
    can see. i) It only runs on leaded petrol. ii) All the folks i've
    talked to thats had one complain about hot starting iii) It goes out of
    production very shortly.	
    
    The RS Fiesta seems a better bet as being a Ford I would think that the
    leasing costs would be quite low.
    
    Is anyone thinking of ordering one in the near future ? 
    
    I'm trying to get a test drive with Hendy Ford in Southampton. They are
    the only RS dealer in the area. Are there any other RS dealers in
    B'stoke Reading area ? The response I got was that they won't be
    registering a car for demoing until August (New reg). They obviously
    can't be in a rush to sell them !
    
    Roy

    There is a little Ford dealer in Hungerford (about half an hour down the
    M4, which may have less of a demand for test drives etc than the large
    main dealers, maybe you could try there.
    
    Carl.
     

    Thanks for the tip Carl, but as I understand it not all ford dealers
    sell "RS" models. I think there are only 80 RS dealers in the country.
    
    Roy 

    I tell you what, I will look in the showroom on the way home tonight,
    to see if they have any RS's.
    
    Carl
    

Zenith Reading are RS dealers.

I wasn't impressed when I took my Escort RS-Turbo in for a service.

If the Fiesta is similar to the Escort in steering heaviness (according to
the reviews it is worse!!), then you will need to be a weightlifter.

Check about the Renault 5 unleaded situation, it may have changed, there is
a quote for one with unleaded on the scheme. I occasionally run a tank of
unleaded in mine with no adverse effects at 35,000 miles.

As for hot starting, I guess that is a problem with any car where a 1.4 (or
1.6) litre turbocharged engine is shoehorned into a small car. I do get
annoyed with the noise from the fan, but have never really had hot starting
problems. I think most other owners would agree.

Cheers.

Mark.

        
    Grays of Guildford are an RS dealer. I've found them to be usually
    quite helpful. But maybe "H reg" time is not the best for test
    drives.

    Grays are on the "old" A3 bypass, at the Wooden Bridge, Guildford.
    
    Richard.

    Never had a Hot start problem yet with the R5 Turbo but I must admit
    that the Fan drives me around the bend and also it's such a bumpy
    ride that the car starting to rattle after Just Three weeks .
    
    
                               KR

    Horncastle in Reading were planning some time ago on becoming RS
    dealers. Not sure whether they qualified yet.......

    No real hot start problems here either on my Renault.
    
    re Unleaded...they still take leaded. There was letter from a Renault 5
    GT Turbo owner in Auto-Express in the last month, stating he was using
    unleaded. Their reply read somethin like...
    
    
    STOP using unleaded at once you will damage your engine....
    
    
    
    Greg

    Re: Zenith in Reading. They are now trading as Anchor Ford 0734 312550.
    They are an RS dealer and have just sold an RS Fiesta. They will be
    getting another one in a week or two. They are quite happy to give test
    drives to Digital employees.
    
    Roy

    I read in this months Performance Car the test match between a RS
    Fiesta and a Pug GTi 1.9.  They quoted the Fiesta 's 0-60mph of 7.5 
    seconds and a top speed of 128mph.  The reviewer went on to say
    that in their tests the RS blew away the Pug GTi 1.9 on mid range
    and 4th,5th gear acceleration.
    
    Grant

    But what did they say about the steering and handling??  Which car did
    they prefer overall ??
    
    
    John (biassed)

RE: last two.

I read this magazine at the newsagents.

They said that the Peugeot (and I gather the R5GTT), felt almost like they
'pivoted' on the opposite wheel for the corner. For example on a left hand
corner, the front right wheel would 'pivot', the rear left could be up in the
air, and the back end could swing round for the corner. Apparently this is
what makes the 205 GTi (and presumably the R5GTT) so enjoyable round country
roads. They do say that this behaviour was a little uncomfortable for those
long sweeping bends (� la Motorway junctions), compared to say a Cavalier.

They said something to the effect that in the RS-Turbo, that this effect is
not so pronounced. I think that they liked it's handling, but criticised the
ride.

I was a bit annoyed that they didn't bother comparing it with the R5GTT, as
this is closer to the Fiesta in terms of performance, and cheaper than the
both of them.

Mark.

    re-2
    
    John the reviewer said that he did not like the steering in the
    RS and the Pug came out on top (just) and that if Ford SVE improved
    the steering & handling plus some interior details then the RS would
    have won!!!!
    
    Grant

    re: .7
    
    "couldn't keep up with r5gtt". Could this be because the RS Fiesta was
    brand spankers and hadn't "loosened up" properly or was it the
    handling and cornering that was refered to ?
    
    Roy

Re: 22

	The Fiesta RS had around 2500 miles on the clock....so should of been 
just about run in. The difference between the R5gtt and Fiesta will probably
come down too individual cars and their drivers ability....

	I finally found out about the green stripe..the fiesta was going to
be called the Fiesta Benetton (spelling).

More gossip:

	Apparently the Fiesta RS turbo will have a very limited lifetime of 
between a year and 18 months. It will then replaced by a 1800cc 16 value engine,
which should give better performance then the turbo. (it seemed a lot quicker 
last night anyway }}}}

Regards

Badger 

>>
>>	I finally found out about the green stripe..the fiesta was going to
>>be called the Fiesta Benetton (spelling).


i read that the interior is 'Benetton' trim

...art

I've just been for a test drive in a Fiesta RS turbo.

 As I had a salesman by my side and I was restricted to 4000 revs because the
car was brand new it was dificult to get a ballanced view of the car, but here
are my impressions.

  Before I go any further I should say all comparisons are against my current
car which is a Renault 5 GT turbo.

 On the whole I liked the car, it looks god from the outside and the interior is
spacious and comfortable though a litle bland.

  Although I was limited to 4000 revs the car felt very fast, the power coming
in smoothly with very little turbo lag. One thing I did notice was that the
engine did not rev up from tickover as eagerly as my renault engine.

 Once on the move the ride is quite comfortable and fairly smooth, not as hard
as the renault, I didnt notice much body roll but I wasnt exactly thowing the
car through the corners.

 I dont know why but I didnt like the feel of the steering I found it dificult
to put the car on a line and hold it there without making constant adjustments
with the wheel, which felt too small to me. When the car was traveling I didn't
get that feeling of knowing exactly what was happening at the wheels that I
enjoy in the Renault.

 The gearchange seemed reasonable but was lacking in precision. Top gear seemed
very relaxed, 70mph being acheived at just below 3000 revs, at this speed engine
and road noise were very subdued, this would be a nice long distance cruiser.

This car had antilock brakes fitted. The brakes werent as positive as the
Renault, the pedal needing to be pushed a long way before any real retardation
occured.

  Once the fiesta was back at Anchor Ford in Reading I went back along the test
route ( a nice twisty but wide B road ) in the Renault, there is more turbo lag,
the ride is harsher, and there is more noise, but it seemed more controlable and
therefore much more fun to drive.

 I was thinking of the Fiesta as a replacement for the Renault when its lease
is up at the end of the year. However with its 1.4 engine putting it in the low
tax bracket I think another GT turbo will be better value for money.

	Barrie. 
 

Well at long last I've driven the RS Fiesta. Although it was only a relatively
short test drive through Reading and out onto the dual carriageway, I had a
good idea what the car was like.

The interier was very good. Even though the dashboard is the same as the lower
model fiestas everything was functional (i'd prefer the lecky window buttons on
the door as they are out of reach down underneath the cassette player). There
is plenty of room for the driver, I'm 6' 5" and have a lot of probs with
headroom in cars but it is fine in this. The leg room was OK but had a job
getting my left foot comfy when cruising, there didn't seem to be much room
under the clutch.

The steering was quite heavy, only noticeable when parking the car. I found the
ride hard but not "bone" hard as one review called it.

I guess I was a little dissappointed in the performance, probably for two
reasons, i) the car had only done 120 miles from new
	ii) the salesman was breathing down my neck begging me not to break any	
            speed limits.

When I drove a collegue's R5GTT I was instantly impressed by the acceleration,
I didn't get this impression with the RS Fiesta.

I thought the finish was excellent. There were no rattles in the car and it had
a quality feel to it.

My concern is mpg. A & M said in their review that overall they got 23 mpg and
26 mpg on the motorway. I would hope to get a lot more than this if driven
gently. 

RE .7 & .22 (ARRODS::WINTERSS) - IF THE CAR DRIVEN THERE HAD DONE 2500 MILES
WHAT SORT OF MPG WAS RETURNED OVER THAT PERIOD ?

I'm gonna be looking at the new 16v R5 which is out shortly I believe, before
making any decision on the RS.

Roy

    
    Could soneone tell me if the new XR2 has a sliding sunroof rather
    than the old style XR2 type (ie. push up or 'take out')?
    
    Cheers
    Tony
    

	re:

	I believe that the sunroof supplied is the basic two notches up 
and lift out variety (both on the XR2i and Turbo).  The option I took when 
I bought my XR2 was to get the garage to fit one of your choice. Usually works 
out cheaper as well. When I bought my car (E reg) Fords sunroof was about 271
quid plus vat etc whereas the garage one was about 120 quid. Shop around !!


Badger

    One of the reasons the sunroof on the XR2i/RS Turbo is only tilt
    and lift out, is to allow maximum amount of headroom. If it was
    sliding it would lower the headroom a couple of inches. This may
    not be an issue for some people but it is for me. 
    
    - Roy

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
================================================================================
Note 1255.0                RS Turbo Fiesta anybody ??                    1 reply
SUBURB::ALLYS "Pass me those pills"                  11 lines  12-OCT-1990 16:44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
    
    Does any know who owns the black Fiesta RS Turbo in the Decpark 
    carpark  ??
    
    I would'nt mind having a closer look. I did try a test drive at the
    Ford dealer in Reading and got taken round the block, was'nt able to 
    go more than 30 M.P.H !! The sales rep's attitude changed once she
    realised I was a company car owner (the pound signs in her eyes
    disappeared)
================================================================================
Note 1255.1                RS Turbo Fiesta anybody ??                     1 of 1
KERNEL::SHELLEYR "Adios, amoeba _m_���_m_"            4 lines  12-OCT-1990 17:27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This should be a reply to # 1134. Try dir/title="fiesta RS"
    
    I had a test drive in an RS Fiesta with no probs at Anchor Ford
    Reading. Contact the Fleet sales, they should help you.

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
================================================================================
Note 1255.1                RS Turbo Fiesta anybody ??                     1 of 1
KERNEL::SHELLEYR "Adios, amoeba _m_���_m_"            4 lines  12-OCT-1990 17:27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This should be a reply to # 1134. Try dir/title="fiesta RS"
    
    I had a test drive in an RS Fiesta with no probs at Anchor Ford
    Reading. Contact the Fleet sales, they should help you.

    I'll be putting in a quote for my next lease car shortly (currently I
    drive an XR3i) and I can't make up my mind between the Fiesta RS Turbo
    and Renault 5 GT Turbo. I've driven both cars and like them both
    equally.

    Would anyone (particularly R5GTT drivers) who has driven both cars care
    to comment (NB. It is the RS Fiesta NOT the XR2i that were talking
    about here)

    My observations on the RS Fiesta -
    . Good value on the scheme �400/yr extra with the options of heated
      windscreen and ABS for a �12000 car (R5GTT costs approx �200/yr with a
      sunroof, but costs only �10000)
    . Standard equipment not on the R5 include - spot lamps as well as fog
      lights. Remote tailgate release. 4 speaker stereo (as opposed to 2).
      Sunroof.
    . Runs on unleaded.
    . Recaro seats.
    . Slightly larger, giving more room inside the car.
    . More power before the turbo cuts in, and at the top end.

    Observations on the R5GTT -
    . 1400cc hence lower tax bracket (although as it runs only on leaded
      fuel this saving is used up in higher petrol costs)
    . Remote central locking.
    . Although the Fiesta that I drove had ABS, I find the brakes more +ve.
    . You can really feel when the turbo cuts in, and feels quicker in
      acceleration.
    . It has a turbo gauge (the fieata with its bog standard dashboard does
      not).

    Comparisons between these cars have already been made in this note but
    further comments will be most welcome.

    I know the R5GTT's days are numbered, but believe they will still
    available for a while yet. Do you know different ?

    - Roy

>    My observations on the RS Fiesta -
>    . Good value on the scheme �400/yr extra with the options of heated
>      windscreen and ABS for a �12000 car (R5GTT costs approx �200/yr with a
>      sunroof, but costs only �10000)
Roy,
I think the answer here is Ford offer BIGGER discounts especially to
fleets. 17.5% is not uncommon probably more. Renault will only offer 10-12%
discount.
	
	Ford �12k - 17.5% =9.9k

	R5GTT �10k - 10.0% = 9k
		     12.0% = 8.8

Difference is now �900 to �1100.

Go on pick the R5GTT and put a blanket over the window when it's frosty :-) 

Dave (who_would_have_no_problem_if_I_had_the_choice)

After testing most of the competition I chose to go for another R5. I was quoted
316 pounds for a standard car, but I believe I will end up paying 189 as the
cost of a basic lease car has been revised recently. In my opinion this is 
excellent value.

  By the way the only car that I tested and wanted more than the 5 was a 21
Turbo  ( yum yum ! ) now that is expensive .... perhaps if i sell the house..



	Barrie

...bear in mind that the "hot hatches" will probably get clobbered by the
Taxman soon...

    Tell us more about this "hot hatch tax"!

    Yes, do tell.
    
    Is this related to the recent White Paper (green issues)
    which also stated that speeding is to be treated more seriously !

Just something I heard/read about GTi etc owners being effectively penalised
for using up more than their fair share's worth of fuel etc..

It's all very vague...

I'm just a bit miffed about my Nova GTEi being included in the bunch as it's
a very much down tuned 1600 engine and I never get less than 38 mpg out of
it !

:-(

�I'm just a bit miffed about my Nova GTEi being included in the bunch as it's
    
    Do you know what other cars are included in this list ?
    
    If they want to penalise drivers according to fuel consumption,
    why not specify the mpg figure and determine tax breaks from that ?
    
    I know that would ne nowhere as simple, but it would make more
    sense than choosing an arbitrary limit based on cc's.
    Also, I would expect some loading for turbo-motors, using
    some sort of 'equivalence factor'.  I wouldn't like it, but who would ?

    A friend of mine got stopped in Holland for speeding on a empty
    motorway. Reason he got stopped: by speeding you pollute more.
    Ironicly, in the background one could see the large chimneys of DSM
    (chemical company) smoking away happily......................
    
    Cheers,
    Flying Dutchman
    

    
>    Do you know what other cars are included in this list ?
    

I hope you realise that this all still comes under the "rumour" heading...

Basically anything with "GT" "TURBO" "SR" "i" etc.

    Diesel has an 'i' in it :-)
    
    Richard

        <<< Note 1134.42 by UKCSSE::RDAVIES "I can't trype for nits!" >>>

>    Diesel has an 'i' in it :-)
    
and some of them have TURBO before the "diesel"

�Basically anything with "GT" "TURBO" "SR" "i" etc.
    
    Hey, that means I could get away with it - mine has a name !
    					       What's yours called ?
    
    Sounds like confusion on conference topics here - should this move ?
    
    Back to the [tax-break] subject (still not this actual topic),
    
    Do you know if this rumour indicated whether the go-faster models
    of smaller-cc cars would be put into the next band up, part-way,
    or higher still ?

Re: .37

>    Is this related to the recent White Paper (green issues)
>    which also stated that speeding is to be treated more seriously !

As the most effective ways of reducing deaths and injuries on the roads
are strict enforcement of drink/drive laws and strict enforcement of
speed limits, this is highly appropriate.

I think it is outrageous that some insurance companies disregard as many
as two speeding offences.

jb

    The cars in the article (I put the article in the conference) were the
    Pug 205GTi,XR2i and Nova GTE.  If this became law then it would take
    effect as of the 1991 budget.

    The article say that the above mentioned cars would be efected to some
    extent.

    Grant

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
================================================================================
Note 1321.0                  How are they doing ???                      1 reply
SUBURB::ALLYS "Pass me those pills"                   7 lines  17-DEC-1990 17:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Some of you guys must have had your RS turbos for a while now, how are
    they doing, good choice, any regrets etc ??
    
    I am about to order one, so before I make the final decision an insight
    into living with the car would be nice.
    
    

    Re: .47 

    I'm about to order one myself. Two guys here at Viables have had them
    since September.Both of them like the cars very much although both have
    had problems with performance above 4000 revs with a symptom like fuel
    starvation. This appears to happen when there is less than a quarter of a
    tank of fuel. One has also had a problem with the turbo.

    The performance is outstanding. However, the main problem for me would be
    the poor mpg. Don't expect to get any more than between 25 - 30 mpg.
    It also has a small fuel tank (9.2 gallons), which means that you need to
    fill up every 250 miles. Not good if you do a high mileage.

    On the lease scheme, I believe you get a good deal. On the current quote in
    vtx for �398/yr you get a car worth over �13,000. 

    - Roy

    Re: .-1
    
    Do you know what these fuel starvation symptoms are like ?
    
    I have a Fiesta RS Turbo that will not cruise smoothly at 60MPH (yea, I
    know - because it wants to go faster), and wondered if my symptoms are
    similar. Probably not because 60MPH is about 2500 RPM. It's going into
    the garage on Friday to sort this one out.
    
    I am pleased with my Fiesta, but as already said it is quite thirsty.
    
    Unfortunately two utter ... tried to break in to it at 3am this
    morning. So that means two new doors.
    I get great satisfaction from thinking about their shock when the alarm
    started to go off.
    
    Graham

    Graham thats interesting, when I test drove the RS I noticed that at
    a steady 70mph the slightest movement on the thottle made the car
    "jerky", but I thought that as this was the turbo cutting in it was
    "expected behaviour".

    What sort of mpg do you get with what sort of driving (ie m'way country
    or in town) ?

    - Roy

    Are Ford now fitting alarms as standard or are they extra ????
    

    Thats a good question. In VTX in the section on alarms it says that
    Ford are fitting alarms as standard. However the last brochure I
    checked didn't include an alarm as standard on the RS Fiesta.
    
    I've just ordered one (without an alarm) but a guy here has an
    RS Fiesta that was recently stolen and after hearing of Graham's
    incident I am getting a bit worried. As I don't normally carry any
    company equipment my cost centre would not pay for an alarm (unless
    it gets stolen (if thats not a case of locking the stable door
    after the horse has bolted I don't know what is !)).
    
    - Roy
    

I asked a salesman at Anchor Ford if alarms are fitted as standard, he said no.

When I asked the same question at the motor show the answer was yes !


	Barrie_who_likes_to_be_helpfull 

    Roy,
    
    I am in the same boat, I have just called Anchor Ford and an alarm is
    not a standard feature, a remote alarm will cost an extra �300.
    
    Well judging by the stories I have heard it looks as if it will be a
    short lease period...... 
    
    

    Yes, my RS Turbo is very 'jerky' more particularly at certain speeds
    than others. I assumed that this is quite normal (I had a 1.6
    non-injected Escort before this so I didn't get the same
    'responsiveness' at 70ish)
    
    I don't continually watch my MPG, but I do check it every so often. The
    last time I checked I was doing a mixture of town driving, motorway
    (say 70MPHish) and 50MPH limit roads (about 30%/50%/20%) and I was getting
    28-31MPG. 
    
    And finally ...
    
    Alarms are not (at least were not in October) fitted by Ford as
    standard on the Fiesta RS Turbo (I think it's Fiesta full stop). I had
    a panic when, even though I had ordered an alarm to be fitted to the
    car, there wasn't one on. I never did find out whether this was
    because there had been a change in policy or that the fitter never
    turned up at the garage. I was told that my manager had to send a mail,
    they didn't take any notice of an alarm on the order form any more, but
    then Hertz phoned up and said 'sorry about the alarm, the fitter didn't
    turn up'.
    
    It looks as though the ...'s who tried to take mine for a test drive
    had pinched one car a few streets away and were looking for another to
    have a race with, as a neighbour saw 'a flash white Escort' drive out
    of the road with no lights on. He assumed it was an Escort Turbo or
    XR3i. The Police told me that it was in fact a bog standard 1.3 Escort
    with lots of styling kits applied. Ha. 
    
    Graham

    
    I recieved my car on Jan 3rd which I had ordered in november. I had
    read an article about alarms being fitted as standard  but alas when
    mine arrived there was no alarm.
    
    I have a problem with my heater - when I select it to blow onto the
    front windscreen and close of all the vents on the dash absolutely no
    air comes out. Has anyone else had this ? Is it the selector or a
    missing tube ? ( i use the quick clear button to demist )
    
    Apart from all that I have been most impressed by the car and boy does
    it ever go !!
    
    Tony

    
    
    To get the blower to work you will have do over 3500 rev's and wait for
    the Turbo to kick in.
    
    
                           Kevin R

    Tony, you would get the situation you descibe if you slide the air
    flow direction to 0.
    
    Presumably you're setting it correctly. Fortunately you have the
    'quickclear' windscreen so you could live with the problem until
    the first service when they will sort it out.
    
    - Roy
    

    
    I am setting it correctly but as you say I still have the quick-clear
    windscreen. I don't know how I ever did without it. Even when the
    windscreen is completely iced up, after about 2-3 mins all I need to do is
    use the wiper blades - fantastic, no more frozen b***s!!!
    
    Tony

    Roy
    
    Have you had a firm delivery date given to for your R.S yet ?? 
                        
    
    Shaz

    re .-1
    
    Funny you should ask that Shaz, I had a call from Hertz a week or
    so back saying that they could deliver it on the 22/1. This is pretty
    good considering I ordered it less than a month earlier on Xmas
    eve. The thing is I stated on tthe order form for it to come after
    the 20/3/91 when the lease on my current car expires. They said
    they had overlooked the date and will conttact me again later.
    
    What about yourself, have you driven one of these beasties yet ? What
    did you think compared to other cars you may have driven in the same class ?
    Have you ordered/got one yet ?
    
    - Roy

    re .-1
    
    Roy,
    
    Well I going in blind, apart form a run round the block by Anchor I
    have'nt really tested in properly. My lease actually ran out a few
    months back. I put in an order before Christmas and was told that I
    should get delivery sometime in January. I am actaully in India until 
    the middle of Feb, so I guess if the leasing company are trying to get
    hold of they won't have much luck. I will zap off a memo to fleet to
    see if they can chase a delivery date.
    
    If you have ordered a Black one with alb and quck clear screen, maybe
    they would let me have it on my return !!
    
    Oh you see the cars in India, they are at the forefront of technology,
    with there pre-1960 models. The newest shape here is the old Lada
    shape, real radical stuff !!
    
    Shaz

    
    If anyone around Basingstoke wants to see an 'interesting'
    modification which has been done to an Fiesta RS Turbo, just pop round
    to Ralphs Motors. 
    
    Ouch!
    
    Steve.
    

    RE: .-1
    
    How modified is `modified' ?

    Re:.62
    �<If you have ordered a Black one with alb and quck clear screen>

    Shaz. Thats the one. We must have ordered off the same quote.
                                                 
    - Roy

�   RE: .-1
    
�   How modified is `modified' ?

It's now shorter (lost about 12" off the bonnet).

Now almost a three-wheeler.

The windscreen is now a nice arched shape.

Looks like a tidal wave has rippled across the roof.

Luckily there was no passenger at the time, because the two front seats now
nearly face each other.

That modified enough?

Steve.

    Fortunately the driver was not seriously injured.
    
    - Roy

    
�    Fortunately the driver was not seriously injured.
    
    
    He wasn't injured at all, bar some scratches on his left hand, caused by
    a flying stereo!
    
    S.
    

    
    What's happened to Ford Quality Assurance? Looks like it's going down
    the toilet when it comes to Fiesta RS Turbo's.
    
    Two friends have recently got their hands on these machines.
    
    The first one was delivered without the heated front screen, and the
    passenger courtesy light didn't work. After approx 1000 miles, the
    turbo came adrift, and after several fixes, it still didn't work
    properly. Unfortunately, this car is no longer around.
    
    The second was delivered, and everything looked okay. At least it had a
    wheel on each corner! The heater doesn't work, and the passenger
    electric window will not close completely, without a LOT of assistance.
    One and a half days after delivery, the turbo suddenyl stopped working,
    and the car sounded like it didn't have a silencer fitted!
    
    Looking under the bonnet revealed what had gone wrong. The exhaust
    gases are taken away from the engine via a metal tube which runs
    towards the front of the car, over the top of the engine. (It's got
    TURBO stamped on it in BIG letters!). This is bolted to the engine by
    two bolts. BOTH of these bolts have come undone, which has pulled the
    flimsy bit of rubber tubing off so half of the exhaust gases are coming
    out into the engine bay and almost nothing through the turbo.
    
    Have any other owners come across this? Looks like Ford may be rushing
    these cars out, with little regard to standards, because of the demand
    for the cars is high.
    
    Steve.
    

    By the way, my own car's a Ford, and it was delivered perfectly okay,
    and I haven't had any problems, so I'm not anti-Ford, just
    anti-(company seem to be making a fast buck at the cost of customer
    satisfaction).
    
    Steve.
    
    I wonder what the chance is of all this being co-incidence?
    

    This is worrying. It sounds like no pre-delivery check was made.
    
    I'll make sure I give the a car a quick check over myself before
    I sign for it when it is delivered in March.
    
    - Roy

    re -1
    
    Roy,
    
    you don't happen to know whta the vaxmail address for fleet is ??
    
    I would'nt mind trying to figure if they have a delivery date for my
    car yet; although I am not to sure I really want now, after reading
    about all the folks who have got problems with the old R.S.
    
    I knew I should have gone for a PUG.....
    
    Shaz

    Re:<you don't happen to know whta the vaxmail address for fleet is ?>
                                                                         
    Should you need to escalate an Admin matter the route is:-
    
    
    Pam Dormer - Fleet Administration Manager 7830-3405 @Reo F3
    Hilary Bailey - Fleet Buyer 7830-4700 @Reo F3
    Debbie Spooner - Commodity Manager 7830-3252 @reo F3
    Marilyn Clifton - UK G&A Purchasing Mgr - 7830-3699 @Reo F3
    
    The Admin Group consists of:-
    
    Richard Brashares - Orders/Burglar alarms 7830-4695
    Robert Allen      - Quotes 7830-6315
    Jamie Bunting     - Deliveries and Disposals 7830-6509
    Yvonne Matthews   - Cross charging, Parking Fines 7830-6668
    
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I must confess that I'm having second thoughts too.
    
    - Roy

re .72 .73

Should have got a Renault 5 Turbo


;^)

Greg

    
    Re .72, .73 & .74
    
    You try to tell people, but some just won't listen! :^)
    
    Mark

    Roy,
    
    Thanks for the info, but where I am at there ain't no DTN or ALL-IN-1,
    only little old vaxmail.
    
    Shaz :-0

RE: -.1

Then do the following to send a VAXmail through to an ALL-IN-1 user:

MAIL> SEND/EDIT
To:     mrgate::"REO::Pam Dormer"
Subj:   How's the quote?


I'd be suprise if mrgate (Message Router gateway) was not defined.

Cheers

Steve


             
  

                          re: -.1 -<thanks>-

    The current issue of "Fast Ford" gives an interesting review
    of an RS Fiesta fitted with a conversion by Detection Techniques.
    This increases the bhp from 133 to 165, and ups the 0-60 time from 7.7
    to 6.6 secs. It didn't give any idea of the cost, it appears you have
    to send for a brochure.

    What is the situation regarding "improving" the performance of lease
    cars. Presumably the problem would not be with insurance as there is a
    blanket 3rd party cover. It would be with the lease company. I know of
    a few people who have done this but its all been a bit hush-hush.

    I guess its ok to specify the "mods" required on the quote as there is
    currently a Pug 1.9 with a turbo conversion in vtx (�6221/�2507 Wow !).

    - Roy

The majority of these 'chip upgrades' are not approved by the original vehicle
manufacturer. They therefore invalidate any warranty on the vehicle. For this
reason the lease companies will say NO NO NO!

And before you think about getting the vehicle modded AFTER you receive it, and
then switching the old chips back every time it's serviced, a lot of the emus
now fitted can detect the chip change and report on it when interrogated.

    Switching chips won't be exactly legal in insurance terms.  None of us
    want an accident, but paying damages to someone you've injured in an
    accident may not be achievable on the salaries that Digitals pay.

    I read somewhere that there had been a rash of Cossies with blown
    engines because the loon behind the wheel, wanting more BHP, did the
    chip change. Result was the engine producing horses, but at the expense
    of the engine's longevity.
    
    Steve

    
    RE.-1
    
    IT'S BETTER TO BURN OUT THAN TO FADE AWAY !!

    Re -.2
    
    Oy!!  B*g Off sunshine...
    
    I have been running a BBR 305bhp conversion for 40,000 miles now, and
    with greater reliability than I had before the conversion.
    Dave Brodie offers a lifetime guarantee on his work (mine or the cars,
    I am not sure - probably amount to the same thing).
    
    The only problems I have had have been with spark plugs - I have to
    use Champion C59C's to stop them melting, and of course nobody stocks
    them.
    
    Why am I so late replying ? 
    
    A small matter of having broken down in Luxembourg on the way back to
    work...
    
    Cossies don't like diesel :-(
    
    But that is another story.
    
    Rob
    

�    I have been running a BBR 305bhp conversion for 40,000 miles now, and
�    with greater reliability than I had before the conversion.
�    Dave Brodie offers a lifetime guarantee on his work (mine or the cars,
    
    Great - another satisfied customer for BBR.
    
    Any satisfied D.T. customers out there ?
    
    J.R.

    
    Re: a few back...
    
    When I approached Fleet about a PUG 1.9 with a Turbo Technics
    conversion a year or so ago, I was told 'no way !'.
    
    I guess times have changed...
    
    Later.
    
    -fv

    �< Note 1134.86 by UBOHUB::VAUGHAN_F "Going for GOLD..." >
    �When I approached Fleet about a PUG 1.9 with a Turbo Technics
    �conversion a year or so ago, I was told 'no way !'
    
    You shouldn'd have asked, just submitted the quote ;-)
    
    - Roy

Well, going back several notes now.

I am the proud? driver of the RS Turbo that suddenly became the RS due to the 
turbo becoming unbolted and disconnecting itself.

Anchor Ford in Reading fixed the problems in a day (Monday) and then returned 
the car to me. 'Great', I thought, and then proceeded to drive it in the evening.
Whilst driving, the car started to judder just when acceleration was needed, I
thought it might just be a blockage as the problem soon went away. However,
last night the car did a superb impression of a kangaroo to Hook and back and
several drivers were seen to almost crash as they were pi**ing themselves
laughing at this turbo jolting past them.

This may be a generic problem with the car as I know of one other that had the
same 'feature'. It seems to occur mainly in 3rd and 4th at about 2500-3500 revs.

My advice to anyone thinking of getting one of these beasties is that they are 
superb when they go but I have not had mine in working order for more than two
days at a time! Ford reliability sucks - a case of the hare and the tortoise.

Gary

    
    Re The last few,
    
    Makes the supposed Renault Hot-start problem look a bit tame doesn't
    it! :^)
    
    Mark

    
    
�    Makes the supposed Renault Hot-start problem look a bit tame doesn't
�    it! :^)

    
Would you prefer
    
    a) to have the car stop for no reason at all
    b) to kangaroo down the road
    c) have the turbo fall off
    d) none of these
    
    

RS Turbo now back in my grasp. Apparently the booster pressure needed adjusting
as it was screwing the turbo up - thus the shudders.

So far, so good. Wonder if it will last more than two days this time?


Gary

PS/ Driving in the snow is a real bitch - car seen on its side on the
A33 at Reading - very recent ~ 5.00pm

    Gary, whats the latest on your RS ? Is it going alright now ?
    I'll be getting mine in a few weeks. I hope I don't have the same
    probs. Do you know if Jacksons in B'stoke will look at "turbo" problems
    or does an appointed "RS" dealer have to deal with it such as Anchor
    Ford as you mentioned. The reason I ask is that although it doesn't
    have a particularly good reputation, Jacksons is the most convenient
    garage for servicing.
    
    - Roy (Look out for a black one in the csc car park soon.)

When I had my horrible Escort RS-Turbo, I couldn't take it to Jacksons, and
had to take it to (then) Zenith.

Trouble is you'll probably need to take it there quite a lot.

Mark.

     �horrible Escort RS-Turbo
    
    Mark, What didn't you like about it ? Was it because it was unreliable ?
    
    - Roy

    
    My RS turbo seems to cut out when acclerating hard. It feels like a
    massive misfire or lack of fuel even though the tank is full. It first
    happened at the end of a journey to Scotland. It doesn't always happen
    which makes it worse as I cannot predict when it will occur.
    
    Anyone got an idea what might be happening ?
    
    it is a new car with 2000 miles on the clock.
    
    Tony

   >>    Anyone got an idea what might be happening ?
    
    You're realising you made a mistake?
    
    Mark :^)

    Re: .-2
    
    This happened to mine last November. I booked it into the Garage, and
    they couldn't fault it. I haven't faulted it since.
    
    So I'm not much help.
    
    BUT
    
    I have had a problem with the engine 'not running smoothly' at 60MPH in
    5th (see a few back).
    
    It was in for it's 6000 mile service a week ago. It had been in to the
    garage for this second problem a couple of times previously, so I sent
    a letter to the service manager pointing out that this was their final
    chance.
    
    After it came back, the best I can say is it was no better.
    
    I contacted Hetz yesterday, and they are going to lean on the garage on
    my behalf. they also have their own engineer based here in Manchester
    who will get involved.
    
    I still like the car, as I *know* it can run OK at 60MPH (it ran OK
    when I first got it).
    
    I just think the garage are not capable of setting it up correctly.
    
     
    Graham

    It appears that every single person I know that has this car has
    experienced this problem. Anybody not experienced it ?
    
    - Roy (Panicing as his is due to arrive shortly.(I should have listened
    to the pro-5GTT brigade)

> Roy (Panicing as his is due to arrive shortly.(I should have listened
>   to the pro-5GTT brigade)

WOW!!

Sounds like this Fiesta is a great car ;^)

More expensive than the Renault 5, slower and unreliable
.

Greg (who's got a Renault 5 Turbo [and did listen])


;^))))

I should come clean. I didn't own this RS-Turbo for 2� years, just 3 months
whilst waiting for my Renault 5 GT Turbo.

I found the RS-Turbo to be uncomfortable (worst seats ever, no back support,
and the bolsters made ME feel fat!), slow (relative to R5GTT!), and with
INCREDIBLY heavy steering. I found that I nearly wasn't able to turn the
steering wheel, going into a car park once.

I had problems with the car continuously stalling all that time. The car
was about 9 months old, with 12,000 miles on the clock (I know, 9:30 on the
odometer!).

The best (and worst) thing was the heated front screen. Good for clearing
the screen, bad for seeing out of!

Mark.

Been out for quite a bit but thought I would get back in the flow.



Car has been behaving itself now and I am quite pleased with it so far.......



The problem of cutting out seems to be related to the problem I had of stutter
at about 60mph. Get the garage to check out the booster pressure. Anchor told
me that was my problem and they adjusted it accordingly, a non-RS garage may
not have the appropriate equipment.


As for going to Jacksons, Roy, forget it! I have heard a story from someone not
too far away who took an RS Fiesta to them. The reply was 'Oh, a Fiesta RS Turbo.
I haven't seen one of those before!'


As for the pro-R5GTT brigade I say good luck to you. I had one of those for six
weeks before my last car (2� years ago) and if you can get over the binary turbo
that cuts in at 3000 causing bad road holding, the excessive road noise and the
fact that the one I had was supposed to have a horn, but it was missing, then
all so well and good.

Each car has their pros and cons but you pays your money and you take your
choice.

Gary

    This business about the engine cutting out/backfiring.
    
    It sounds very much like an occasional problem I get with the Cossie.
    It only happens when I have been going slowly on the motorway for a
    while, with the accelerator hardly pressed down, you know, about
    90-100.
    
    Then if I suddenly put my foot down, the engine cuts out, there is a
    big bang, together with smoke from the exhaust, and then the car
    accelerates away. It never happens under normal driving.
    
    At first, Brodie's said that I needed 'cooler' plugs. They had already
    changed from the standard Ford plug to Champion C57C, and suggested I
    try C59C. That seemed to solve the problem, except that the Champion
    plugs wear out after about 4000 miles, and NGK don't do an equivalent.
    
    Then recently, I had the problem back, and it was getting worse. I
    couldn't see anything wrong, so I took it into my local Ford dealer,
    who also couldn't find anything wrong, although they did agree that it
    wasn't running right.
    
    On the last trip back here, it got worse and worse, and the fuel
    consumption got worse, which caused me to run out of petrol (107 Km
    along an 110Km stretch between stations).
    This is where it gets really silly, but results in the problem being
    diagnosed.
    The service station in Luxembourg gave me a Fuel can half full of what
    they said was 'Super'. So I walked back to the car, and poured it in.
    Started the car, it ran!!!! with lots of blue smoke....
    1 Cosworth Diesel turbo.
    
    Anyway, to cut a long story short, I got filled up with Super (not
    Super Diesel), and went on my way.
    About 3 miles down the road, there was an almighty BANG and everything
    ceased to happen.
    The next day, Ford Euro Motor (43 30 30 X56 ask for Frank) found what
    they referred to as the MAP sensor to be buggered. It appears that this
    sensor was on the way out, and was causing my problems, and that the
    misfiring caused by trying to run it on diesel finished it off
    altogether. Anyway, they put a new one in, replaced the plugs (with
    standard Ford ones) (also drained the tank & fuel injection). 
    All is well now, and has been for the last 2000 miles.
    
    Anyway, what I was getting at is - 
    1) Try cooler plugs
    2) If you know what a MAP sensor is (My French wasn't up to
    understanding the reply when I asked them) - have it looked at
    3) Never try to run it on diesel :-(
    
    Also, I noticed at the time that the later Cossies have different plugs
    to the old ones, so I wonder if this is a feature that Ford know about
    ?
    
    Rob
    

    Thanks Rob for passing on your experience. 
    
    Re:�Champion C57C, and suggested I try C59C�
    
    I've been looking into plug numbering recently, and thought that most
    manufacturers (including Champion) number their plugs where the lower 
    the number the colder the plug (NGK being one of the exceptions). I
    don't wish to nit pick, but this conflicts with what you've said in as
    much that a '59' plug would be 'hotter' than a '57'.
    
    I totally agree with the thought that a high performance engine
    requires 'colder' plugs.
    
    - Roy

    I have just taken delivery of my my R.S, I think it may have been
    your's Roy , cos after I mailed carfleet, they suddenly came back and
    said that they had one in stock !!
    
    Well so far so good, I have pottered into Reading and everything seems
    to work so far. I am off on a long run to Manchester so I should be
    able to give it a good old test !! 
    
    Only niggle so far is that there is no fresh air vent that works
    independently of the heater.
    
    
    Shaz 

    Well done Shaz, I'm pleased for you.
    
    - Roy (Green with envy, despite the bad press I'm still looking forward
    to getting mine at the end of March)

    Silly Snail,
    		Roy, you are right, I had C59C and changed to C57C.
    Still trying to recover from the weekend...
    
    Rob
    

    Re: .104

    Shaz. You say that you can't get independant fresh air from the vents.
    Try this. After the engine is warm, slide the heater control to it's
    hottest setting. Open the front and side vents. You should get hot air
    out of all the vents (I think this is the behaviour you are seeing).

    Now, if you turn down the heat just a tad, you should find that
    warm air still comes out of the side vents, BUT the centre vents should
    be gushing forth with nice cool fresh air.

    If you've tried this and still have a problem, get it looked at during
    the next service (or earlier if it bugs you).

    By the way, which garage in what area delivered your car ?
    I ask because as we ordered off the same quote, I'll probably get my
    car from the same garage (I think thats the way it works).

    Cheers,

    - Roy

    re: -1
    
    Roy,
    
    The garage the car came from was Jackson Walker (or vice a vera) in
    Swindon. They delivered the car to Decpark, with in excess of 200
    miles, I am not to sure if it came from further afield or if some one
    took it for a joy ride prior to me getting it. Anyway I could'nt see
    the value of moaning.
    
    I have tried the heater trick and it works, that now means I won't have
    to fall asleep from the heat cos my wife insists on having the heating
    up !!
    
    The only problems so far are:
    
    1. one of the back speakers does'nt work... that's no big deal
    
    2. The car does seem to like the traffic, on the way home from DP the
       damn thing kept cutting out.
    
    Maybe it's too early (I have covered about 900 miles) but I don't seem
    to getting the turbo trouble the other guys complained about.
    
    I also checked out an alarm at the Ford dealer and they are asking
    about 280 pounds for an ultra-sonic all singing all dancing alarm, a
    little steep in my opinion. So it will just have to sit at home
    alarmless. I may just get a crook lock instead !!
    
    Shaz

    Re: <they are asking about 280 pounds for an ultra-sonic all singing
    all dancing alarm>
    
    Shaz, you should not consider getting the alarm done privately.
    Ask fleet if you can have a remote alarm fitted and the extra put on
    your monthly car payment. At least its worth finding out how much it
    costs. 
    
    This has happened to several guys here, although they have had alarms
    fitted and paid for by the cost centre _after_ the cars had been stolen
    (and recovered obviously).
    
    Keep us informed.
    
    - Roy 

    
    Why would you  want to fit an alarm at your own cost to a company car?
    
    There is no benefit to you to pay for such a thing (unless you are
    worried about things you leave in the car or having to get home), but
    the company surely could avoid a lot of expense by fitting alarms as
    standard to all their cars.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Does Digital's insurance cover them for theft?

Walker Jacksons is only about 45 miles from DEC Park, not more than 50.

Someone got *VERY* lost !

:-)

>    Why would you  want to fit an alarm at your own cost to a company car?
>    
>    There is no benefit to you to pay for such a thing (unless you are
>    worried about things you leave in the car or having to get home), but
>    the company surely could avoid a lot of expense by fitting alarms as
>    standard to all their cars.
    
    I agree, though I would add, have you seen the price of cars on the
    lease scheme recently?  If your cost centre won't pay up, then paying
    for some sort of effective alarm system could save you money as a
    replacement car could cost you several hundred pounds a year extra.

    Re:    <<< Note 1134.112 by WOTVAX::MEAKINS "Clive Meakins">>>
           � replacement car could cost you several hundred pounds a year extra
    
    Clive, a good point, but I would hope that the "inflated" prices in vtx is
    only temporary. 
    
    - Roy

    Re. last couple
    
    This replacement car business is of interest to me as my lease car was
    stolen last week and it looks as though it is going to be written off.
    
    What is the policy for replacing cars that have been stolen - am I
    entitled to the same car at the same price, can I have a say in whether
    it is rebuilt or not, or do I have to get a new quote. If the latter is 
    true then it means paying at least 400 pounds a year more for the same 
    car - doesn't seem fair to me!!!
    
    Can anyone throw any light on this?
    
    Spike.

    re.-1
    
    If your car is stolen and not recovered within so many weeks or if your
    car is totalled/written off, then you can reorder. You can order any
    make/model, but it will have to be off a current vtx quote (I'm not
    sure if you can put in quotes, but would think so).
    
    - Roy (Try looking for a bargain in cars available for take over for a
    few months, then hopefully DEC/PHH/Hertz will get their (note the
    correct context guys) act together))
    

    You already know that I think alarms are worthwhile, having had my car
    damaged once in a theft attempt. 
    
    It happened again last night (that's twice in two months).
    
    Both times they saw the red light inside the car, disconnected the horn
    and damaged the doors.
    
    I am now going to see if I can get something rigged up so that the real
    horn wires are hidden and dangle some 'false' wires in their place.
    These false wires will be connected to a relay which will close when
    the circuit is cut. The relay will operate something like the
    sidelights, which will cause the alarm to sound. This will prevent
    further damage, should the same M.O. be used again (apart from the
    thiefs eardrums).
    
    I did think of two other alternatives.
    
    1) Asking VSL if there was such a facility built in to the alarm
       already (there isn't, I asked them).
    
    2) Putting 11,000 volts through the false wires ;^)
    
    
    So, my recommendations : get an alarm, but that will not be enough on
    its own to stop the damage.
    
    Graham

    Has anybody had a similiar problem, I have only noticed this in the
    wet. After returning to the car I have noticed on several occasions a small
    amount of streaky oily water underneath the car. The first time I
    noticed I dismissed it, but I have noticed it on another couple of
    occasions. However it can't be a vast amount of oil cos I have'nt noticed 
    it in the dry. Any suggestions ??? 
    
    
    Shaz

    On the RS Turbo ?
    
    I do find that my turbo-motor 'breathes out oil' when parked following
    a period of 'heavy use'.  This may be 'cos it's a Lancia, but having
    a turbo would certainly increase oil consumption - whether it is burnt,
    or coming out of the breather pipe (increased combustion pressure can
    lead to 'blow-by' to increase crankcase pressure).
    
    I also found quite a lot of oil came out of the intercooler hose
    when that disconnected itself (at its lowest point).
    
    J.R.

    > I also found quite a lot of oil came out of the intercooler hose
    > when that disconnected itself (at its lowest point).
    
    Is it normal for an Integrale to breath oil in?
    
    Mark

�    Is it normal for an Integrale to breath oil in?
    
    The air through the intercooler is pressurised by the turbo,
    so I expect that this oil would have come from the turbine housing.
    
    It was not really a lot, a couple of teaspoons-full, which had
    over a year to build up.  It just makes a bigger mess...
    
    This means the engine is running on (two-stroke style) premix,
    must help lubricate the 'upper cylinder'.
    
    Oil from the crankcase breather only showed up when new, probably
    due to blow-by before the pistons/rings/bores had been run-in.
    Maybe this is what is happening with the vehicle mentioned before
    (was this a new Turbo ?)
    
    J.R.

    re: -1
    
    You have now confused me, too technical, what's the bottom line ??
    My car has only done 800 mlies !!
    
    I am out the country, can somebody give me a the phone number for
    Anchor Ford in Reading (please).
    
    Shaz

    
>    I am out the country, can somebody give me a the phone number for
>    Anchor Ford in Reading (please).
    
0734-312550 (main number)

�    You have now confused me, too technical, what's the bottom line ??
    
    As the car is new, the engine is still being 'run-in'.
    
    Until this happens, it will (usually) result in higher oil consumption
    (as Derek stated).
    
    The engine has a 'breather pipe' which allows 'fumes' to escape.
    
    Particularly with a turbo, there will be more fumes/oil vapour
    escaping from a new engine that is not yet run-in.
    
    If you only notice a slight 'oily film' on a wet road surface beneath
    you car, it could simply be that some oil droplets are landing there,
    from the breather pipe exit.  If this is all, don't worry.
    				 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    I think (Derek could correct me if wrong) that the breather pipes
    on race-cars have to exit into a container of some sort.  This is
    to help prevent oil from getting onto the track surface.
    
    J.R.

Don't want to sound crotchety, but didn't normal cars stop leaking or
burning oil, when the ice age finished?

With the security of an oil level meter (similar feeling of security that ABS
gives, allowing 90mph travel in all road conditions!), I'm happy that both
my R5's have never used any significant amount of oil.

The solution seems to be to get a better made & designed car.

Mark (Parsimonious, if he could spell it) Jeffery.

    
    It depends if the garage that serviced the car knows how to refit an
    oil filter.......... 
    

    Mark, if your oil level meter is the same as mine in my Renault, watch
    it carefully the next time to dip into the batmobile. Switch on
    ignition, dash lights come on, meter springs to life with needle at
    "full" (or whatever the french is). The second you start the motor it
    gets disconnected and the needle drops to zero. I guess it's only
    capable of reading a steady state condition and can't cope with oil
    sloshing around in the sump (not of course that you corner so fast that
    the oil level is ever anything other than level........ ;-)  )
    
    
    It's about as much use to a car on the road as a chocolate teapot is to
    hot water.......

but it's no longer an electronic dipstick once you start the car - 
it magically transforms into an oil pressure guage

it saves on getty oily mitts on checking oil level - if you trust it that is!




...art

�Don't want to sound crotchety, 
    
    Not crotchety, 'bitchy' sounds more like it.
    
�Don't want to sound crotchety, but didn't normal cars stop leaking or
�burning oil, when the ice age finished?
    
    I might not like to describe my car as 'normal'.  ;-)
    
    If your engine does not 'emit' any oil fumes, particularly when
    it was being run-in, there are two possible reasons :-
    
    	(i)	The breather pipe for your engine connects with the
    		inlet manifold - so you WILL BURN OIL.
    
    	(ii)	You don't drive hard enough !
    
    You might notice that the main 'oil leak' I described was when
    the intercooler hose became disconnected (1 bar boost being the cause ?)
    
�With the security of an oil level meter (similar feeling of security that ABS
    
    My engine has an oil level sensor which works when the engine is first
    started.  If the level is low (or car is parked on a 'sideways' incline)
    a small led comes up in the check panel, plus a big red light in the dash.
    
    These lights do not go out until ignition is switched off again.
    
    There is also both an oil pressure guage and oil temperature.
    They give me some security too.
    
    Of course, with all these lights and dials, the dash has been described
    'as if someone went mad with a Spirograph' !
    
�my R5's have never used any significant amount of oil.
    
    Depends on your meaning of 'significant'.
    
�The solution seems to be to get a better made & designed car.
    
    So when are you getting something better than an R5 ?   ;-}
    
    J.R.

    
    
>>     Not crotchety, 'bitchy' sounds more like it.
    
>> �The solution seems to be to get a better made & designed car.
    
>>    So when are you getting something better than an R5 ?   ;-}
    
    
    You're a kettle and I'm a pot?
    
    Mark

    Re .129
    
    Art, you must have a different version to the one in my R21..... as
    soon as the engine runs mine DEFINATELY doesn't become an oil pressure
    guage.... unless the change in mode means a change in scale
    direction..;=)
    
    
    About the only guage that Renault supply that I trust is the
    mileometer.

re .132

Ah!, i've an R5 - obviously gets the best gadgets then!

�    You're a kettle and I'm a pot?
    
    I just thought that one 'bitch' deserved another...
    
�                              -< Ceasefire time? >-
    
    Yeah, sure.
    
    J.R.

    I'll be the 4th person here at Viables (B'stoke) to get an RS Fiesta in
    the last 6 months.
    . 1st guy had his stolen after 3 weeks (It was used in a robbery and
      recovered, its now got an alarm fitted.
    . 2nd guy totalled/wrote it off after 2 months.
    
    . 3rd guy had his stolen last night are having it for just a few weeks.
    
    . 4th gur - aaaagghhhhh thats me ! I wonder what can of worms is
      waiting for me.
    
    WARNING: THE RS FIESTA COMES WITH A BAD LUCK CURSE (THIS COMES AS
    STANDARD)
    
    - Roy (awaiting sarcastic remarks from 5GTT owners/drivers)

No sarcastic remarks from me.

My first R5 got stolen from Wheelers when in for repair (yes, it did need
repair!)

My second one has just been jacked up on the side skirts by ATS (no, it isn't
a hovercraft).

This is all well documented.

As I said, I was (sort of) trying not to be bitchy.

Significant means any more than a couple of drops. I don't know what dipsticks,
or oil level meters measure oil units in.

A normal car is a non racing car, A lot of people put racing comments in, I
just wanted to distinguish a road car from a racing car.

I repeal note 1134.121 unconditionally.

Mark.

PS Dick, my Batmobile seems to have pretty reliable guages! I did notice an
Espace that didn't convert to an oil pressure meter.

PPS If you're not sure why I've gone for a R5GTT twice, then try driving one
for a while. I've decided twice NOT to go for a Pug 205 GTi or RS-Turbo.

�PPS If you're not sure why I've gone for a R5GTT twice, then try driving one
�for a while. I've decided twice NOT to go for a Pug 205 GTi or RS-Turbo.
    
    I would like to put in my comments here, re. 'try driving one' -
    
    I did try these out for test drives a while ago, considering one as
    a 'second car'/'car for the missus' but I found one serious drawback.
    
    It did not have enough legroom !
    
    I've seen a lot of notes which bemoan lack of headroom in cars, but I
    can allow for that (in most cars) with a minor adjustment to driving
    position (even if that is not ideal).  In the R5 (GTT) I found it
    was extremely uncomfortable with the seat at it's rearmost setting.
    
    In fact, the only other car which made my leg ache in this way was
    a Fiat X-1/9.  In that, the rear bulkhead was in the way.
    The Renault dealer did offer to 'modify' the seat mountings if I
    were to buy (a new) R5 from him.
    
    Do any of the R5 drivers find this (worse than 'Italian' driving position) ?
    
    I also drove a Pug 1.9, in which I actually preferred the direct response.
    At that time, I had got used to driving a turbo-motor and it made a
    pleasant change to drive a 'torquey' motor in a light car.
    
    I am particularly biased/prejudiced (a common malady) against Ford's
    so would not consider one - especially of Fiesta size.  No real
    reason for that, other than my own (worthless) opinion.
    
    In the end, I did not get either of these cars - I kept the Manta.
    Yes, it is slow (it is a 'tired' GT/E), but I am not a FWD fan and
    did not think these cars worth paying for (as new cars).
    
�As I said, I was (sort of) trying not to be bitchy.
    
    Unconditional cease-fire on that...
    
    Above reply is not supposed to be 'a bitch' really, even if it seems it.
    
    J.R.

    
    Re .137
    
    How tall are you, John?
    
    Mark

    Hey stop degenerating this topic by talking about Renaults..... PAH !!
    
    
    Does anybody know the policy ref that speaks about the company fitting
    a car alarm if the car gets stolen and recovered, if so can you either
    post it or mail it to me. 
    
    
    S.

    
    Yeah, how can you mention the RS Turbo Fiasco in the same breath
    (note?) as the Renault 5 GT Turbo? One's brilliant and the other's a
    Ford! :^)
    
    Anyway, I recall a company I worked for having 3 XR2s stolen in a
    matter of a couple of months and gutted for spare parts (one bloke 
    had his stolen twice!). Apparently there is a great demand for stolen
    parts and the XR2/XR2i/RS Fiasco/Etc seem to be a very popular choice 
    with the nick 'em and gut 'em brigade. Seems just one more reason for
    NOT buying an RS Turbo.
    
    Mark
    

    �one more reason for NOT buying an RS Turbo.
    
    But we're not _buying_ we're leasing !
    
    BIG difference.
    
    - Roy

    Re .141
    
    Not when you've got to walk home it isn't! :^(
    
    Mark

    The XR2i is the car most likely to be stolen, and of those red is the
    most stolen colour (presumably because there's more of them).
    
    Dunno what it proves, I just happened to have heard it on the radio!
    
    Ian.

�    The XR2i is the car most likely to be stolen, and of those red is the
�    most stolen colour (presumably because there's more of them).

Both of the Fiasco RS Turbo's at the CSC that have been stolen were red.

Spooky!

Steve.

    
    From the number of RS's being stolen, they would seem to be more
    popular than the R5GTTs.
    
    Obviously a better getaway car :-)
     

    Re: .139 (EVOAI1::ALLY 
    �Does anybody know the policy ref that speaks about the company fitting
    �a car alarm if the car gets stolen and recovered

    I've just had some info back from my mgr re car alarms.

    Apparently each cost centre has an insurance policy that if your lease
    car gets stolen they can claim against. If this happens the cost of a
    car alarm is also claimed from this policy. 

    So the cost centre has nothing to gain or save by paying for an alarm
    to be fitted, if you don't carry company goods as a rule.

    The cost of fitting a vsl (remote) alarm is �220. Once you have ordered
    a car from a vtx quote without an alarm specified as an option, you
    cannot have this amount incorporated in the lease cost. If you want to
    then get an alarm fitted you need to order one through car fleet (see
    the contact in vtx fleet news) via your manager to whom I understand
    you would make the one off payment through.

    - Roy 

    Well, since originating this note back in July last year, I finally
    decided to go for one and H970 AMR arrived yesterday from Walker
    Jackson, Swindon.

    First Impressions ? _Very_ good.

    The performance is fantastic (although I'm trying to keep under 4000
    revs during running in). Its very smooth and a lot quieter than the
    XR3i that it replaces. It has a 'quality' feel about it despite
    being 'just a Fiesta'. I suppose it should do considering on the road
    it costs in excess of �13k with ABS and Quickclear windscreen options
    which my car has.

    I would advise anyone thinking of getting a Ford with a quickclear
    windscreen to drive a car with one fitted. You might change
    your mind. I may get used to it but every on-coming headlight and
    street light refracts into a cross of light and during the day the
    heating elements are quite visable.

    There appears to be no problems at all with the car _yet_. Everything
    seems to work as you'd expect. I'll post another note later after the
    first service. I'll be interested to see if I experience any of turbo
    problems already mentioned.

    - Roy 

>>                    -< I've got one at last. >-

       Hard luck!  :-)

       No, only kidding. Is it the shiny black one that was at the back
       of the car park yesterday?  I hope it was worth the wait.

       Ian (Peugeot 205 driver just popping in for a little abuse!)

    Re Quickclear screens.
    
    I had one on my Grandad some years ago. And I swore that I would not
    bother again.
    
    After a couple of months, I no longer saw the elements, was no longer
    bothered by headlights (and I get bothered by headlights anyway!), but
    the capacity to clear a misted screen in spring without roasting the
    car's occupants is a real boon. Driving away on a frosty day is
    brilliant; start engine, switch on front and back screen heaters,
    scrape side windows, get in car, drive away. Even in a hard frost,
    scraping the side windows always takes longer than clearing front and
    rear screens.
    
    Steve

    Re .149
    
    So why wouldn't you bother again?
    
    Mark

    Re: Quickclear
    
    Maybe I'll change my mind too, after another spell of frosty weather.
    
    - Roy

    There was an article in last weeks Autocar on the ole R.S, some sort of
    long term test. Most of the problems talked about seem to pretty much 
    what I am experiencing.
    
    The only problem with mine so far (I get to drive on the weekend if I
    am lucky !!!) was that it kept cutting out in traffic. I mentioned this
    at the 1500 mile service, and they told me they fiddled around with the
    mixture and the idle speed. The end result that is that it now sounds as
    if it is idling to fast, at about 1200 RPM. 
    
    It also seems to have changed the driving characteristics, not too sure
    if it's my imagination, but on slowing down to take a roundabout or
    approaching lights, unless I change right down the car seems to "buck"
    and judder. I damn sure it did not do that before the service, but
    then maybe I don't drive enough. Any of you folks having similar
    problems ????f
    
    
    
    
    S.

    
         Dont know if its been mentioned here before but.....
    
         I had a face lifted RS turbo Escort when they first came
         out ( 4 years ago ??) and after the first service also
         had problems with it stalling  in traffic, at junctions
         etc.
    
         I dont know if Fords have since cured it but the
         dipstick always worked loose. I guess it had something
         to do with the crankcase pressure used for the emision
         level control (???), but it often caused the engine to
         stall especially if the idle was already on the low
         side.
    
         Cure... I made the plug on the dipstick larger with
         insulation tape. :-) Honest Guv!!!
         
         Paul

    Re: .152
    
    Sorry Shaz to hear that you've got this problem.
    
    My RS is coming up to 3000 miles. No problems at all to report.
    However, I also noticed a slight change in behaviour after the first
    service. The tickover must have been adjusted as it is higher now at
    about 1000 revs and when cold its about 1500 revs.
    
    I've not experienced any stalling problems (except driver error :-) ).
    
    - Roy

    I thought it was a bank holiday in the UK today ?????
    
    Or do you have a treminal at home 

    Digital Scotland doesn't take bank holidays.  We are all cheerfully
    beavering away in Ayr and South Queensferry.
    
    Ian.

    .155
    
    Yep its a bank hol but in CSC we give 365 day cover here
    so someone has to work :-)

    A warning to all RS owners/drivers regarding servicing your car.

    My beloved RS has now covered 6000 miles and yesterday was serviced at
    Jackson's B'stoke (now I've heard a lot of bad press about them, but
    as they are the only convenient franchised dealer around here, so they get
    the business).

    They collected the car and returned it in plenty of time and there
    appeared to be no problems. Before "stuffing" the service check-list
    into the glove box, I thought I'd gloss over what they had done.
    I was rather concerned that in the box marked - 

    "Renew spark plugs (*only on RS turbo at 6000 miles)"

    there was a cross instead of a tick with the remark "see report" so I
    eagerly searched around for this "report". There wasn't one.

    So I phoned our friends at Jackson's to be told that the "report" was
    for their service record not mine and that they don't service RS's very
    often and it needs a special type of plug which they didn't have in
    stock. 
    Oh! says I. They then informed me that in a week or so they will
    come down and collect my car to fit them. 
    Oh! says I, can't you bring the plugs down and fit them to the car in 
    the car park ? 
    Oh no, can't do that, can't do _any_ work out of the workshop.
    Hmmmmmm. 

    I intend making another phone call to Jacksons as it seems rediculous to
    me that there should accept a car in for servicing when they don't have
    all the parts.

    Sooooooooo, to all you RS folks when you book your
    car in for service, check that the garage can get the spark plugs that
    are needed. If not it would appear that they hope you don't notice.

    Having said that, I'm well pleased with the RS which has so far
    performed faultlessly. (overall 36 mpg) 

    - Roy 

I thought all the RS's and Cosworths were only supposed to serviced by
RS dealers - is Jacksons one?

Peter.

    Jackson's Service manager informed me that they won't work on problems
    on RS models but can handle routine maintenance. The problem is as they
    don't see many RS models they don't carry the needed spares.
    
    My question was, why despite booking the car in a week in advance
    (stating the model) was it accepted in for servicing when all the parts
    needed for the service were not available. 
    
    I'm very dissappointed and despite 3 calls and a discussion with the
    service manger who assured me he would call back yesterday I've heard
    nothing.
    
    It would appear that if they don't have the needed parts to hand at the
    time they just don't bother.
    
    It just goes to show that a franchised ford dealer stamp in
    your service book means diddly squat in as much that you can't be
    certain that all the requirements for the service have been carried
    out.
    
    - Roy

    To complete the Jacksons fiasco with my Fiasco.
    
    They dispatched a mechanic this morning to fit the plugs on-site here
    at Viables. I asked if this is likely to happen in the future _if_ I
    bring it to them again. They said that this is an exception, but I still
    think that if you have your RS serviced at a non-RS Ford dealer (which
    is perfectly reasonable) its worth mentioning to them to check that
    they have all the parts they need before collecting the car.
    
    - Roy (Mr Sally's comrade in arms)

    
    Roy, 
       This has very little to do with fords....but a lot to do with
    blazinsmoke..... I put my Cavalier in for a service at at the local
    vauxhall dealership in blazingsmoke and.... they didn't have all the
    parts available....Where as when I take it Reading every thing is done
    to a very high standard.......back to portman road for it's next
    service......
    
      Al
    

    Re: -2
    
    Roy
    
    Still no where near the six thou service yet, I think I am upto approx 
    3200 + miles. I drove upto Edinburgh last week and gave the car a good run, 
    it was quite a good drive. The old R.S performed quite well round the
    twisty Scot's roads, great road holding. 
    
    The only small niggle was the the seats tend to get a little
    uncomfortable after 4+ hours; I guess that is as a result of the 
    sports suspension. The other annoying thing was that the petrol tank could
    have been made a little larger, I seemed to be continually worried
    about filling  all the time !! 
    
    After 5 months of driving and living with the car I am pretty happy
    with the choice I made, best car I have owned so far.
                               
    
    Mr Sally. 

    
    Am I being thick ?
    
    With all the advice given to women that they should lock all doors on
    their car when being hassled by a thug/yob/prat, how do you do it on
    the RS ?
    
    Tony

    
    All you need to do is push in the door handle. That will activate the
    central locking. If you need a demonstration look at the passengers 
    interior door handle as you lock the driver's door from the outside.
    
    -- Stephen

    This is from a security memo. See RDGENG::READING #627.14 for the complete
    version.

    >Over the last few months several cars have either been stolen 
    >or broken into in the car park here at Dec Park.
    >It appears that the thefts/damage is happening during the 
    >day, either mid morning or early afternoon.
    
    >Furthermore it has been identified that the favourite car of 
    >the moment appears to be that of the Fiesta RS turbo. The 
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >last one was discovered in Wokingham stripped of most items.

    If the RS fiasco is the fav. car of the moment how many have been broken
    into/stolen ?

    Can any noters here give anymore info. ?

    - Roy

    
    I can't answer your question Roy, but when I was last in permanent
    employ some of my colleauges had the later model XR2. At that time
    THEY were the most sought after car by certain parts of the motor
    industry (:^)) and one person had TWO stolen. One was found stripped
    out and the other disappeared completely in the space of less than
    6 months.
    
    Obviously there is a thriving market in 'secondhand' Ford parts.
    
    Maybe the parts are stolen to upgrade basic models to the higher specs?
    
    Mark

    
    
    
    
    
    
    
     
    re: -1
    
    Roy
    
    I saw that note too, I know I was eagre to change cars !! No it was'nt
    mine that was stolen. There must be about four or five at the last
    count in Dec park.
    
    Looks like I'll hang to mine now, or at least give a few months to see
    if it works out space wise. 
    
    One question I have though is, how easy is the steering lock to break ??  
    Or will a determined thief/joy rider be able to break it easily.
    
    I actually get to drive it a little more now (I have a job back in the
    UK), I dropped it in for a 6000 mile service and it's now running
    really well.
    
    
    Shaz
    

    Someone tried to nick mine out of the DECpark lot on Wed. afternoon. 
    They didn't quite finish the job, someone came out and they ran. (it
    was parked at the end of DECpark II somewhat near the door). It's in
    the shop now having a new door skin put on, new locks, and will soon 
    have an alarm fitted (not that it'll do a lot).
    
    Peter
    

    Does this mean all RS Fiasco owners will get a free alarm fitted ?
    
    I doubt it, but it could save DEC/insurance some money if they're so
    much in demand.
    
    Roy.

    
    
    You must have all the car thieves in Reading. I leave mine outside my
    flat and have had no problem at all.
    
    Having said that I bet it is pinched tonight.
    
    Tony (West London)

    I seem to remember that Andy Doran had the wheels pinched off his XR2i
    when parked near the Stretford Arndale office in Manchester, a couple
    of years ago.  Ditto a customer in the same place different date.

    The later RS Fiestas have a wheel nut lock on each wheel as standard.
    (At least from March '91 onwards). Don't know how easy it would be to
    get a wheel off without the adaptor key which is also supplied (and
    easy to lose).
    
    By the way, has anyone experienced starting probs with their RS ?
    
    The other day it just wouldn't start. The engine was turning over and
    over but it was as if there was no spark. Anyways I left it for 10 mins
    and it started 1st time. I've had no problem since. 
    
    I mentioned this at Ralphs today when it was in for a 12k mile
    service and he said this sort of thing sounds like a faulty TDC sensor.
    
    Its apparently a common fault on Orions and other models with the 1.6i
    engine. He showed me where it was and said if it happens again give it
    a knock. If it then bursts into life you know thats the problem !
    
    Who needs advanced electronic engine diagnosis !
    
    Roy

    Well, I've been off for a couple of weeks, and was about to enter a
    note to ask if anyone has had a problem starting their RS Turbo.
    
    Over the last 6 weeks it has happened 6 times to me. I had put it down to
    vapour locking, because the first 4 times was in the hot weather, and
    the engine had got quite hot, but the last two times disproved this.
    Both times the car had been standing for at least two hours.
    
    All times apart from the last it started after 5-10 minutes.
    
    The latest time was Friday night. I had to call the RAC out (they
    arrived within 20 minutes). The patrolman was impressed with the car
    ("I would soon lose my licence if I had one of these") and had said
    that he had been called to many "Ford Efi" engines that he discovered
    had no spark. He had pulled first this lead, then that lead off. The
    last one he had tried at one particular call was the "flywheel sensor".
    The car started straight away.
    
    "flywheel sensor" sounds remarkably like "TDC sensor", so I suspect it
    was the same problem.
    
    He pulled the lead off and put it back on on mine and the car started.
    
    The following day I wnt along with my wife to visit some friends. The
    husband is an RAC patrolman, who told exactly the same story: Efi
    engines, no spark, then will suddenly start. 
    
    So it sounds as though I have the same problem as Roy in .-1, and so do
    other people. The next time it happens, I shall give the connector a
    tweak, and then it's a quick trip to the garage before the warranty
    runs out.
    
    Graham

    � ("I would soon lose my licence if I had one of these") and had said
    
    Assuming of course he could A) get it started :^) and B) succeed in 
    not getting it nicked! 
    
    Mark

    
    
    It had to happen, came out of the house on Friday morning to go to the
    hospital and the R.S was gone.
    
    
    
    
    Shaz ex R.S Turbo owner
    
    p.s Roy that should be cause enough for an alarm.
    
   

    Re: .174 Graham, yes I believe the "flywheel sensor" is the same as
             "TDC sensor". Would appear to be a common prob.
    
    Re: .176 Bad news Shaz, I don't believe it ! Well you did try and get
             an alarm. If you don't get it back you'll be able to get a
             bigger car which is what you want. Keep us informed.
    
             I still have no alarm, I'm not prepared to pay the extra
             myself, and am waiting for the day when I walk out the house
             to find my RS gone.
    
    Roy.  

    Sorry to hear about the car - this disappearing RS wasn't the one that was 
    being joyridden in Reading on Saturday that crushed the child was it? 
    Apparently that was a red one - is/was yours red?
    
    Cheers,
    
    Spike.

    This isn't directed at anyone personally!!!! 
    
    IMO Anyone with a car of this ilk who doesn't use an additional
    deterrent is (i'm sad to say) asking for it.  All you need is a
    flashing LED and a couple of stickers (this worked for me in my PUG GTI
    even in the roughest areas of Manchester!!) - I know if a thief wants
    your car he'll have it, but the joyrider/part removal brigade will
    more-than-likely be deterred by this method, and they are the main
    contributors. 
    
    Theres no way I'd fork out for a car I didn't own either (lease car?),
    but it a damm pain when it gets nicked!  
    
    
    ..Craig

    >deterrent is (i'm sad to say) asking for it.  All you need is a
    >flashing LED and a couple of stickers (this worked for me in my PUG GTI
    
    It's normal practise for a tea leaf to thump a car window to check
    whether there's an alarm on a car, this will usually set an alarm off.  
    Loads of people have flashing LED's now.  Glad to hear you've been lucky, 
    so far....

    
�    It's normal practise for a tea leaf to thump a car window to check
�    whether there's an alarm on a car, this will usually set an alarm off.  
�    Loads of people have flashing LED's now.  Glad to hear you've been lucky, 
�    so far.
    
    
    The alarm on my car has flashing led's in the door "thingies" that you
    can push down to lock and pull up to open. However if you thump the
    window or even smash into it with a sledge hammer it wouldn't go off.
    The alarm I have will only go off when you open a door, being
    a cabrio it will even allow you to climb in after first removing the
    roof with what ever tool you choose without sounding. ONLY when you
    open the door will it sound. You cant start the engine without first
    switching off the alarm though. This would suggest the manufacturer is
    keener to stop the car being stolen then to prevent damage.
     

    Just to continue the rathole, in my GTE I've got an autolock device
    which fits over the gearstick and handbrake. It has saved my car from
    an opportunist thief at least three times (choosing less powerful
    cars to joyride). 
    
    As it needs to be sawn off with a hacksaw it firstly deters anyone not 
    equipped with a saw, ie the non-professional, and secondly makes a 
    professional think twice about sitting in the car for 10 mins sawing 
    away and being vulnerable. I have also spoken to a bloke that used to 
    nick cars and he said that only the most determined professional would 
    bother with a car with an autolock. They only cost 20 quid in Halfords 
    as well. I confess they are fiddly at first and may mark the gearstick 
    but after a while you get the hang of it and can put in on and take it 
    off pretty quickly. They are also a lot less fiddly and smaller than
    the old crooklock which goes over the steering wheel and clutch pedal.
    
    
    Jerome.                   

RE: -.1

>>    as well. I confess they are fiddly at first and may mark the gearstick 
>>    but after a while you get the hang of it and can put in on and take it 
>>    off pretty quickly. They are also a lot less fiddly and smaller than
>>    the old crooklock which goes over the steering wheel and clutch pedal.
    
    
Jerome,
	Do you give advice on other matters as well?!

Steve

I have a US equivalent of a Krroklok in my Alfa.  Thing about a rag-top is that
anyone can cut their way in easily.  The lock is simply a bright orange visual
deterrent - that works.  OK, you can have my radio if you like, it's nothing
too special and can be replaced at a Circuit City sale for under $50, but leave
my car where it is!  Incidentally, the car is usually parked with the hood down,
as they are expensive to replace.  And I have an alarm system that sets off a
beeper if you open a door, then a siren wails for 15 seconds.  Simply deters
the casual tea-leaf or joy-rider.

Brian

    re : .183
    
    >Do you give advice on other matters as well ?!
    
    I certainly do !!!
    
    
    Jerome, who hasn't got shares in Autolock.......Honest !!!

	One of the first things that I bought for the Marlin.  It's	
	simple and effective.  By the way, with the soft top on (hard top
	is for winter), I never lock the doors, I hate the thought of
	having my soft top ripped...

	Dave

    re: .179 >>Anyone with a car of this ilk who doesn't use an additional
               deterrent is (i'm sad to say) asking for it.
    
    Shaz and myself and many others as well have campaigned to their
    managers stressing the cars have a high risk of being stolen because
    they don't have an alarm. I was informed that DEC claims off an
    insurance co. that pays the costs and for an alarm if the vehicle is
    recovered.
    
    As the car is a lease car and not my own I am not prepared to pay extra
    for an alarm. It is false economy by Digital/Hertz/PHH/DEC's insurance
    (whoever has to cough up when the cars nicked) not to get an alarm
    fitted by default. They cost about �200. There are several people in
    the area where I work that have had lease cars stolen and recovered and
    had �1000's spent repairing them, having suffered both mechanical and
    bodywork damage.
    
    Roy.

    Has anybody mentioned the Pedalok yet??
    
    Apparently so far nobody has had there car nicked that has one fitted.
    
    
    Unfortunatly  they ar only available for the Fords and some Vauxhalls
    at the moment.
    
    
    Ian.

>>    Has anybody mentioned the Pedalok yet??

Pedalok....

This is the gadget that simply clips under the pedals and locks in place, right?
....brilliant idea, aren't they ?
You can get "adjustable" ones that will fit just about any car, can't you ?
If not, I know where to get them from.  I may be going into the import business.

The only thing you don't get is the immediate visible deterrent effect
of a bright ornage/yellow chunk of steel round the steering wheel


Ian

>This is the gadget that simply clips under the pedals and locks in place,

Not sure I'd like to rummage around in the footwell of my Alfa trying to fit 
one of them!  Too hard.

    My Frogeye has neither door locks nor soft-top.
    
    I use a Krook-Lok, for deterrent value as much as anything, and I have
    a battery isolater switch for added security. It is possible to by-pass
    it of course, but it takes time, and it's hard to find.
    
    The Krook-Lok, incidentally, is *never* put on the clutch, always the
    brake. This is to stop someone stamping on the pedal, bending the
    wheel, and simply taking the thing off. Already difficult/impossible to
    do if it's on the brake pedal, as I have a Mota-Lita steering wheel,
    and can fix the lock through a hole near the hub, it's fairly safe in
    that respect.
    
    Laurie.

I own a lease car but I figured that even if the car was stolen, sometimes
it would be costly to me i.e. getting home, stuff in the car etc.
So I invested in an Autolok for about �20, a lot cheaper than the �200
for an alarm which will probably annoy more people than it deters.

I use the Autlok when I have to leave the car in dangerous or unknown places.
It has survived a week parked in a back street of Paris and several visits
to some dodgy parts of the Midlands.  

So why not consider a cheaper deterrent and consider spending money yourselves
before expecting Digital to pay out 10 times as much for an alarm.

Trevor

    Re: Pedalok. I have one of these jobbies on my Escort RS Turbo as well
    as a good alarm (it is my own car see, and I want to keep it like that
    thanks very much!).
    
    Right the pedalok then. Well on my previous XR2 I had an Autolok, which
    was the wrong size to fit my new RS, so after seeing it advertised in
    Performance Ford and being highly recommended by the production staff
    (who state that they have one fitted to every one of their cars) I
    decided to purchase one of these Pedalok's, which were advertised for
    something like 35 quid I think (I had seen them before for 25 though).
    Anyway instead of spending 35 quid, I got one for 25 off the BBR agent
    who chipped my beasty. He recommends them too by the way.... and so to
    the crux of the matter - what do you actually get for your dosh ? Well
    the Pedalok cosists of a piece of heavy guage metal flat bar coated
    with black plastic powder paint, and a bright orange bit at one end
    which is just about visible under the steering column when you look in
    the side window. At the other end the bar is bent into a shape which
    will clasp around the brake pedal of the car. Halfway along the Pedalok
    are a number of slots which can be used to apply the correct amount of
    pressure to the brake pedal. A bracket comes with the bar, and this
    bracket is permanently affixed below the steering column vie two nuts.
    These nuts are already part of the cars steering column, so you simply
    remove them, pust the bracket up in and retighten the two nuts... 1
    permanently affixed bracket with only a very tiny loop protruding from
    beneath the steering column above the brake pedal. Right so now what
    you do is put the Pedalok around the brake pedal, push on it to depress
    the brake and catch the little protruding loop in a convenient slot.
    You then take your discus shaped lock, which is also provided. Into
    this you stick your key (which you must do to open it as it always has
    to be closed - which is annoying) place it around the little loop and
    lock it on. It is a very tight fit so there is no room for leverage
    against the lock. Eurieka, you have one anti theft device which holds
    on the cars brakes(good too if you park on a hill), so it isn't going
    anywhere easily. You also get a window sticker too.
    
    The thing is though, can you get back under the steering column,
    unscrew the two nuts and remove bracket, Pedalok.... and RS Turbo and
    all. It may be very fiddly to get at the two securing nuts (esp. in the
    dark), but is possible I think. I will have to take a closer look and reapraise the
    situation.
    
    I recommend them very much. After the first few goes you can get it on
    and off quite quickly.
    
    Gary (shareholder in Pedalok Inc. :-) ).

    re: .194
    
    Sounds like much to much hassle to me. If you can get these nuts off
    then it is a waste of money. Also why wouldn't the autolock fit on 
    your RS ? If the seat is too far forward, then it won't go on until
    you move it back, but that is only a small inconvenience compared to 
    having the car nicked. Also, the Autolock locks not just the handbrake
    on but also locks the gearstick in third, this should make the car 
    undrivable. I think I'll stay with the Autolock.
    
    
    Jerome.
                

    At RS meet 2 weeks ago, spoke to a bloke who had his new RS Cossie 4x4
    nicked in Dublin, with Alarm and Autolok on !
    
    When recovered 1 day and 500 miles later the Autolok was still clasped
    around the gear stick. Not sure how though... perhaps it had been sawed
    in two bits alowing the handbrake to be released and allowing gear
    changes. Will pursue the matter further if I see him again.
    
    Has anyone had their car nicked when an Autolok has been on it ??
    
    Gary. (Pedalok is not that bad to get on and off, still about as much
           hassle as an Autolok, but if you are really security consious,
           why not fit both ?? perhaps utilising them when leaving you
           machine in a v. suspect area if you can't be bothered to do it
           every time you leave the car).
    
    PS. my old Autolok from the XR2 wouldn't fit cos of the spacing between
    gearstick and handbrake and also I could not get the angle with the
    little collar placed at the bottom of the gear knob (which is exactly the
    same as that that was on the XR2. They do come in different sizes though...

    
    
    Well, they found the R.S, down in Exeter minus it's front seats,
    wheels, radio, battery and front windscreen wipers. The bloke down at
    Bromley Body Repairs reckons that the b%sta%ds must have been disturbed
    otherwise it would have been completely stripped out.
    
    Oh well looks like I should get it back quite soon.
    
    Shaz  

    Thats good news Shaz, or were you secretly hoping it was gone for good
    so you could get a bigger car :-)
    
    Roy

    re: -1
     
    Who me nah !!!!!
    
    I have just checked with fleet to see if I qualify for an alarm now and
    the answer is a big NO. 
    
    I was actually suprised that the area that I live in that it was'nt
    stolen earlier.
    
    
    Shaz
    

    �I have just checked with fleet
    
    Its got nothing to do with fleet.
    
    If/when your company car is stolen this is how the cost are taken up -
    . The hire car is paid for by your cost centre.
    . The cost of repair/eventual replacement is paid by an insurance
      policy.
    
    I understood that your cost centre can claim for an alarm from the
    insurance policy if your car is stolen. I could be wrong.
    
    If your manager is not sure, check with insurance. Maybe its just a
    local decision but here if your car is stolen you get an alarm fitted
    when its recovered as its considered that its likely to get nicked again.
    
    Follow it up and let us know the full story.
    
    Roy

    
    
    Thanks for the advice Roy.
    
    You would have thought that there would be some tangible benefits to
    having the whole of the fleet alarmed; savings on premiums cos of less
    claims etc. I have heard that the insurance department are looking into
    the viability of a fully alarmed fleet.
    
    I was quite surprised at the insurance departments attitude when I did
    enquire about having an alarm fitted, they were lets say not very
    sympathetic  At the end of the day the car is a company car so it should 
    not have to be my responsibility to fit an alarm.
    
    

>> At the end of the day the car is a company car so it should 
>>    not have to be my responsibility to fit an alarm.
    
Maybe not.  But it sure is your responsibility to take care of the vehicle
when it is in your possession.  "Reasonable care" is the term used by the
insurance companies.  Try fighting them on that one .....

    
    Leaving it locked is 'Reasonable care', not spending out �300 on someone
    else's car!
    
    If the car came with an alarm I suppose an insurer could claim it
    wasn't reasonable not to arm it when you leave the car, but surely
    fitting an alarm is as extreme as taking out all the plug leads when
    you leave the car? Sure it'd stop the casual thief, but it's excessive
    to expect you to do it!
    
    Mark

Why can Digital not come to some arrangement with the fleet companies to
provide an alarm on every lease car (whether company or private employee
lease).

The alarm costs money to fit, but surely that increases the re-sale value
of the car, so the fleet companies could make a contribution. Having an
alarm on ALL vehicles must also reduce our insurance premiums, whether
directly on the car or indirectly on our "catch-all" company cover.

The �200 quid it costs to fit a VSL alarm is peanuts compared to the other
costs associated with running a fleet.

It sounds like another case of the "bean-counters" in action ...

Remember the driver training courses that were held because they reduced the
number of accidents and thus saved money? Well once the money was saved, the
bean counters then said "why spend all this money on training ..." and the
courses were cancelled.

Obviously a similar thing is happening with alarms - they were installed and
the number of thefts reduced. Then some smart-alec said "why spend all this
money 'cos no cars are getting stolen" and thus no more alarms.

Lets start to take note of Uncle Ken's "after eight" speech, and stop saying
"can we afford this" and start saying "is this the right thing"!

mb

    �The alarm costs money to fit, but surely that increases the re-sale
     value of the car.
    
    I doubt if this is true. Along with other accessories that are fitted to
    a car it does not increase the "book" price. That is why the whole cost
    of any options we want gets passed back to us over the period of the
    lease.
    
    The fundamental issue is that the lease co. doesn't care if the cars
    nicked as the responsibility is Digital's. DEC has insurance that it
    claims off for theft so the only extra money involved in the theft of a
    company vehicle is the additioanl hire car costs as mentioned earlier.
    
    The only people who are concerned is the insurance co. who I understood
    paid for the fitting of an alarm on a stolen/recovered vehicle but Shaz's
    reply indicated that they don't even do this. They can just increase
    the price of their policy.
    
    I certainly agree that in this day and age _not_ fitting an alarm on a
    �13000 motor is false economy.
    
    Roy

Re .205 & various others:

> DEC has insurance that it claims off for theft

This has been discussed many times in this file - though I can't
remember which notes offhand.

As I understand it, DEC does not insure lease cars against theft.  It
just pays the lease company the value of stolen cars.  This is cheaper
on average than paying an insurance premium.

Jon

    �As I understand it, DEC does not insure lease cars against theft.
    
    If this is true then it is _very_ foolish of the company not to equip
    all cars on the fleet with alarms. Every group I know has had a car
    stolen/recovered and needed �1000's spent repairing it.
    
    I believe some noters are associated with the insurance dept (or
    whatever they are called) an explanation to clear this up would be much
    appreciated.
    
    Roy

    Why should DEC insure against theft ? The insurance companies are going
    to charge sufficiently high premiums to ensure they make a profit. That
    means that DEC is certain to pay the insurance companies more than it
    gets back in claims.
    
    It is only worth insuring against things that are unlikely to affect
    you, and which would cost you a lot if they did happen. Car thefts are
    going to happen. If car alarms were a cost effective way of preventing
    theft then the company should indeed fit all cars with alarms.
    
    Andrew

    
    Car Alarms ARE an effective way of detering 'opportunist' thefts,
    although the 'parts' theif is likely to find a way to nick a car
    whatever. Let's face it, if you have a GOOD alarm (which doesn't 
    go off at the slightest provocation) and it goes off at 2 in the
    morning, you're going to be out to see why (as is most of the
    street!). Cheap alarms are the problem (ie those that go off 
    for no apparent reason, not those (neccesarily) which don't cost
    the buyer much!), but the company should consider getting one added
    to each quote as a matter of course.
    
    If it would save any company money then it's hardly unreasonable of
    them to insist all lease cars are fitted (even if it fractionally
    increases lease costs to the driver). If you object to having to
    pay for a car alarm, you could always buy your own car! :^)
    
    Mark

    re: -1
    
    Why not even just look at the high risk cars (I guess these are likely to
    be the GTi's turbos etc) and fit alarms to those. I have just spoken 
    to Bromelys and they said that they probably get 3-4 recovered cars a
    month to be re-fitted. The funny thing was they went on to tell me how
    a Deccie had his R.S stolen twice from a carpark and they did'nt hold
    out much hope for mine.
    
    I will be interested to see what the total bill will be for the refit
    and damage repair. 
                          

    re .209
    
    Of course if the cost of the car alarm is borne by the driver then it is
    bound to be cost effective for the company !
    
    I dont think there should be any extra charge to the driver for an
    alarm - its cost should be covered by the reduction in theft/repair
    charges that the company currently pays.
    
    Andrew

    
    Re .211
    
    Well, in the ideal situation...
    
    Mark :^)

    I think Shaz has hit the nail on the head. It may not be economical to
    fit alarms to all cars on the fleet as obviously some cars are more at
    risk than others. Over the past few years high performance cars have
    been targeted by professional car thieves and represent a very high
    risk.

    I agree that if we are so worried about our car we should be prepared
    to pay for one ourselves. Personally I would only suffer inconvenience
    if/when my RS vanishes, and I take the line that although I take
    reasonable care of the car and _always_ lock it, I think it
    unreasonable to be expected to pay extra to protect an asset that
    doesn't belong to me.

    What grieves me is that this particular model was highlighted in a 
    Digital memo (RDGENG::READING #627.14) as the most popular car 
    currently dissappearing from the car park and nobody seems 
    interested in adding a little security.

    �200 for a VSL alarm to protect �13000 worth of car does not seem 
    an unreasonable precaution for the company to make. Especially in the
    current climate.

    Roy

    
    If Digital were a little imaginative, I expect they could order VSL 
    alarms direct from the manufacturers for dealer cost and arrange for
    them to be fitting at a preferential rate.
    
    I bet �200 INCLUDES a dealer AND lease company profit margin!!!
    
    Mark

    As someone said a few back, I do look at Notes...
    
    Here are a few more facts and questions to add to the debate
    
    Digital does not carry Car Theft Insurance.
    
    The frequency of car theft in Digital has risen at the same rate rate
    over the past two years as it has risen in the national crime
    statistics.  It is significant both in incident numbers and costs and
    closely mirrors national statistics.
    
    We are currently investigating the worth of increasing the percentage
    of Digital cars that are alarmed.  We are looking at what alarm
    manufacturers can offer in terms of product and price, ability to
    supply in the numbers we might require, and system effectiveness.
    
    Any increase in car alarms will involve a considerable immediate and
    ongoing investment with only possible and unproven medium to long-term
    returns from a reduction in theft and consequent costs.
    
    Certain cars are extremely attractive to thieves, and most of these are
    cars which attract young thieves for 'joy-riding' rather than for
    illegal export or for use in another crime.  Some cars are stolen
    specifically for sale by organised groups of thieves to innocent
    members of the public.  Digital has been the victim of both these
    groups and has been involved with the successful prosecution of some
    offenders.
    
    The new offence of joy-riding and its penalties will do little to
    deter many of the criminals who are juveniles and may not be subject to
    the adult penalties.
    
    Manufacturers have done very little to improve built-in security
    systems that are effective against increasingly sophisticated thieves.
    It could be said that they have an interest in not making their product
    thief proof.  If car theft is costing �500,000,000 a year, that is an
    awful lot of replacement cars.
    
    Doug

    
    Doug,
    
    The government also try to put the blame for car thefts at the
    feet of the manufacturers, but cars are a lot better protected now
    than they used to be (Vauxhall with alarms and deadlocks, Fords with
    Security locks to name Britain's 2 biggest sellers, not to mention the
    dissapearance of the opening quarter-light and the hookable internal
    lock) and the number of thefts increases, so it doesn't really wash
    with me.
    
    As you say many cars are joy-ridden and many of these are not torched,
    but merely abandoned (often with damage). In these cases it is the 
    repairer who benefits, not the manufacturer.
    
    It seems that a very large proportion of cars which are stolen are not
    properly secured, anyway. What's the point of making a car super-secure
    if the driver leaves the car parked with the door unlocked!!!!!?!?!?
    
    Blaming the manufacturer sounds like a good way for the government,
    and anyone else with a responsibility to reduce car thefts, to dodge
    that responsibilty.
    
    Mark

    Re .215
    
    Doug, Thankyou  for contributing to this discussion.
    
    Could you please clarify what appears to be a misunderstanding on my
    part. I was under the impression that DEC claims from an insurance
    policy for the cost of repair and a replacement car (if not recovered).
    
    However, its been pointed out in this conference that DEC shoulders all
    the costs as this may be cheaper that having a policy.
    
    Roy

    I have to disagree with to .-1 that manufacturers are doing the right
    thing, and it's the drivers to blame.
    
    My manager has a vauxhall carlton, WITH deadlocks, WITH alarm (Yes
    locked and set). Whilst away recently it was stolen! The cars are NOT
    secure against entry , nor are they secure against being driven away.
    
    Now I will share with you an idea I have had that's already practised
    by one manufacturer (Citroen XM). This is actually part of a letter
    I've sent to Ken Baker, following his championing of car alarms!
    
              Dear Mr Baker,

              I welcome the news that you are to support a campaign
              to fight car- crime. However, I believe one of the key
              points of your campaign, CAR ALARMS, is not the
              solution the public want. Car alarms in general are the
              bane of the neighbourhood. Far too many of these are
              prone to false alarms, so much so that many people  now
              totally ignore them. Further, they do not in fact
              reduce the incidents of car thefts  by any great
              amount.

              There is however an alternative method of security
              that is possible with current  technology. It is a
              system that cannot be bludgeoned into, can not be
              bypassed by 'hot-wiring' or cutting wires, and totally
              immobilises the car,  making car theft impossible
              without towing away the vehicle.

              Most performance cars these days are controlled by
              computerised fuel  injection. Many more of their
              humbler stable mates still have computerised electronic
              ignition. Without these microprocessors providing their
              complex control, the cars are reduced to expensive
              boxes of scrap. My suggestion is for these
              microprocessors to have a code number incorporated into
              their programming, and for the driver to enter this
              code from a simple calculator style keypad before he or
              she  could start the engine.

              I realise that one of the biggest objections to this
              system may be the safety of the legitimate driver, you
              would not want to have to re-enter the code if you had
              stalled in the middle of a busy road. This can easilly
              be accommodated by a variety of means ranging from a
              simple switch-off delay to detecting in sequence the
              ignition being switched off followed by the doors being
              locked.

              I would ask you to raise this with the manufacturers
              and insurance companies with a view to it's possible
              adoption across all manufacturers.  The incremental
              cost would be far less than alarms as the only
              additional item required would be the code entry
              keypad, and it's associated connection.

              Finally, referring back to alarms, if we must still
              have them, an improvement would be if the alarm were to
              be modified to sound INSIDE the car, possibly through
              the existing hi-fi speakers. The resulting deafening
              noise inside the car would serve to distract the
              would-be thief sufficiently to make his job impossible.
              It would also cut down on  the irritation of false
              alarms disturbing peaceful neighbourhoods.

              Richard Davies.

    Sounds like your manager's car was stolen for a purpose. Very few
    opportune thiefs would bother disabling an alarm and get around 
    deadlocks?
    
    Still, I agree with your idea, but I expect the cry will be 'cost'.
    Why manufacturers can't offer such things as options and gauge the
    take up I don't know. 
    
    However, one thing worries me. Given that many cars are driven by 
    a number of people the number is going to be known by a number of 
    people. Also, I know quite a few people who carry their cash card
    PIN number in their wallet/purse. No doubt many people will leave the
    ignition number of their car somewhere handy in the car (how about
    taped to the sun visor or inside the glovebox lid?) so that they and other
    drivers don't forget it.
    
    It'll protect some people, but some people just don't want to be
    protected! 
    
    Mark
    
    PS If the system ONLY requires the keypad, how does it prevent the 
    car starting? Surely it would need some sort of encoding device built
    INTO the injection/ignition to be secure from bypassing?

    
    According to the Consumers Association just about all cars can be
    broken into on a matter or seconds.
    
    If this is true, the manufacturers are definitely not doing enough
    to improve security! 
    
    

    
    
    	I've driven an Espace with a system very similar to the one you
       describe in your letter to "him". It also happened to be a rental
       (Hertz), hired from the Nice, C�te D'Azur airport. Car theft is
       rampant down there.
    
        Anyway, I found it quite simple to use - evenwhen stalling in
       traffic, the pain/embarassment was'nt too bad.
    
    Paul.
    

>>       <<< Note 1134.219 by NEWOA::SAXBY "Aye. When I were a lad...." >>>
    
>>    PS If the system ONLY requires the keypad, how does it prevent the 
>>    car starting? Surely it would need some sort of encoding device built
>>    INTO the injection/ignition to be secure from bypassing?

    That's what I said. The code is integrated into the software of the
    injection/&/or/ignition computer. It doesn't stop 'starting' per se
    rather it prevents any possibility of the engine being fed
    fuel/&/or/spark to enable it to be started/run.
    
    The keyboard is dumb, it just passes the code to the software. So
    nomatter what 'hot wiring' (short of rebuilding with old fashioned carbs
    and distributor) you couldn't drive the car away.
    
    Yes you could still tow it, but how many thieves go around with a
    tow-truck?.
    

    
    Right.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Depends on what you drive as to whether someone'll consider it 
    worth towing away! :^)

    Well, I have a Fiesta RS Turbo as a lease car. 
    
    Earlier this year I had two attempted thefts. Without an alarm the car
    would have gone. All the would-be thiefs did to get round the "high
    security locks" was make a hole with a screwdriver next to the lock,
    lever the lock barrel out and operate the lock that way. As soon as the
    central locking activated, the alarm detected the drop, and the alarm
    sounded.
    
    The first time both driver and passenger doors were attacked. The
    second time only the drivers door.
    
    Both times the would-be thieves saw the little red light that comes on
    when you alarm the car. They must have thought the alarm would sound
    the horn, because they pulled the horn wires off. It is a VSL alarm
    that has its own siren.
    
    Both times the car was parked on my drive overnight.
    
    Following this, the car was stolen from my drive. 
    
    A 17-year old youth has been in custody since about June, awaiting 
    trial, on car theft and burglary charges.
    
    The first attempted theft resulted in two replacement locks and repairs
    to and repainting of two doors.
    
    The second attempted theft resulted in one replacement lock and repairs
    to and repainting of one door.
    
    I suspect that, had the theft succeeded, there would have been extensive
    repairs to the steering column and a complete lock set required (I
    wonder how much that would have added up to), plus any damage done to
    the car before it was found (assuming it was found).
    
    The time it was stolen, it required a complete new lock set, repairs
    and repainting of the bonnet, replacement alarm unit plus a weeks car
    hire while the vehicle was missing and being repaired. The replacement
    lock set and alarm unit were required because my house was burgled and the
    car key and alarm control unit were stolen, not because of any damage
    to the car. I suspect that I got away quite lightly.
    
    I would say that if there had not been an alarm fitted, it would have
    cost Digital a lot more money, time two.
    
    Graham.

    Ref .217
    
    Digital provides its cars/drivers with comprehensive insurance ie.
    
    Third Party (bought from an insurer)
    Accidental Damage Cover, Fire, Theft, Malicious Damage, Water etc
    Cover for Personal Belongings (limited to �100 per incident) - matching
    commercial insurers rugs clothing personal effects etc.
    All glass breakage,
    Foreign Use
    Legal Expenses Cover including Personal injury claims against Third
    Parties,
    
    Only Third Party and Legal Expense cover is bought in from commercial
    insurers.  The rest is funded by Digital.  This has been proven over a
    number of years to be several hundred pounds per car per year cheaper 
    for Digital as it is for the vast majority of fleets of our size.
    
    Just coming back on car makers, I think we have all seen the items on
    the TV showing us that whilst it may take the thief longer (average 9
    seconds with normal locks, average 14 seconds with "deadlocks") they
    can still get in.

None of the security systems built into or added on to cars will prevent
theft.  What they do buy is time.  The more security features a thief has
to disable, the longer it will take him/her.

Most thieves would presumably want to spend seconds breaking into a car as they 
are most vulnerable to detection at that stage.

Alarms don't prevent theft.  What they hopefully do, is attract attention 
towards the noise.


There are no security features currently in legal use on vehicles that will 
prevent the theft of a car.  If the thief wants it badly enough and is prepared
to take the risk, he/she will steal it. 

    re. 225
    
    Agreed, a determined thief can still get into a car, but that's
    my point. DESPITE improved security (does anyone have a suggestion
    on how to stop thieves getting into cars?) cars are being stolen at
    an increasing rate.
    
    Essentially the problem is that people are stealing more cars, not that 
    cars are becoming easier to steal. Although more can be done to make 
    cars HARDER to steal, that isn't addressing the real problem.
    
    Does anyone have any comparative figures for car thefts in other
    European countries? I believe that car thefts are, on the whole,
    less common than here, but the cars they drive are EXACTLY the same
    as the ones we drive here.
    
    Mark

Re: .216

>    The government also try to put the blame for car thefts at the
>    feet of the manufacturers, but cars are a lot better protected now
>    than they used to be (Vauxhall with alarms and deadlocks, Fords with
>    Security locks to name Britain's 2 biggest sellers, not to mention the

The Vauxhall deadlocks are significantly more secure than the locks on
practically all other cars.  Even so, they can still be broken in to.

The so-called security locks that Ford used are no more secure than the
locks on other cars.  They may be harder to pick, but car thieves do not
pick locks to break in to the vehicle.

jb

    I've an Astra GTE 16V. Since March 91, I've had 6 attempted breakins
    into the car. Each time the thief has screwdrivered the door lock. The
    last 3 attempts have been in the last 3 weeks. If it was not for the
    VSL alarm I'm sure that the car would have gone by now. I turned the
    sensitivity of the impact detector up, so as soon as they whack the
    lock the alarm goes off. So in my case the alarm has paid for itself a
    few times over. So far nothing from the car has been stolen ie radio,
    cassettes etc. (maybe thats due to my taste in music :-).
    
    The Astra will NOT be on my shopping list when it comes up for
    renewal because of all the hassle in getting the locks repaired etc.  
    
    Eric

    Re .229
    
    Where has this happened?
    
    Maybe I live in Wonderland, but I've never encountered anyone who's
    suffered 6 attempted break-ins in 7 months before.
    
    Mark

    
    Attempt No.
    
    1. Leeds General Infirmary (My wife was having a baby at the time)
    
    2. Pudsey Sports Centre (Leeds/Bradford border)
    
    3. Not sure exactly where
    
    4. Showcase cinima complex in Birstall (Wakefield), Incidently the cinima
    employes 4 security guards to patrol the car park. The favourite trick of
    the joy riders is to set an alarm off at one end of the car park and while
    this is being attended to nick a car at the other side. Police now use
    an astra GTE nicknamed the RAT TRAP in this carpark. It drives for 2 minutes
    then cuts out, doors lock etc, it also has reinforced extra glass.
    
    5 Outside my house (Leeds). The alarm went off at midnight. I looked at
    the car, realised what had happened and called the police. By the time
    they arrived (5-10 Minutes) the joy riders had got into an RS Turbo Escort
    further down the road and whizzed past my house with a Golf GTI tailing
    it. I made a note of the reg number of the GTI, but this was also
    stolen.
    
    6 Leeds Polytechnic Car park.
    
    So if you're coming to the Leeds area it might be an idea to bring your
    own wheel clamps with you :-).
     

    
    Anyone seen the 'advert' at the start of Robocop II?
    
    Now thats what I call a car alarm! Also, it's the only way I can see of
    stopping your car being nicked!
    
    Steve

    Turning up the sensitivity of VSL Alarms was mentioned a few back.
    
    So...
    
    How does one "turn up" the sensitivity of a VSL alarm. Is it near the
    on/off keyswitch?
    
    Geoff

    When I had my VSL alarm installed the guy who did it said that he
    always turned the impact detector right down to prevent false alarms.
    He was kind enough to leave me with the instructions for the alarm and
    said if I found any problems I could always adjust the settings. I
    don't have the instructions with me at the moment, but on my alarm there are
    4 things that can be adjusted. The adjusters are located at the top of
    the alarm near the main on/off key and are covered by rubber grommets.
    I think they are adjusters are labeled P1-3, They do the following :
    
    (i)	  Enable/disable switch for the stupid bleep bleep noise which
    sounds when you arm the alarm. (I switched this off immediately so as
    not to fall out with the neighbours)
    
    (ii)  Current drain adjuster
    
    (iii) Ultra sonic adjuster
    
    (iv)  Impact adjuster
    
    Turning these adjusters clockwise increases their sensitivity.
    
    Disclaimer - I'm not sure if changing these settings affects the
    warranty so it may be wise to check with VSL first. But I was told it
    was O.K. at the time.
    
    I'll find out on Monday which number corresponds to which adjuster.
    
                                

    Re: .230
>>    Maybe I live in Wonderland, but I've never encountered anyone who's
>>    suffered 6 attempted break-ins in 7 months before.
    
    Eeeh lad, thah obviously lives down in t'south, why I wunce had mine 
    'done' twice in three days !
    
    .Stevie. from oop t'North.

>    'done' twice in three days !
    
    Wow!!! I thought my XR2 was bad... 3 times in 2 weeks!!! I spose
    i'd best count my lukcy stars!!! The third time i contemplated
    getting rid of the car so that i didnt have to keep replacing
    those damn stupid quarter-lights!!!
    
    
    		Lewis
    
    looking_forward_to_bringing_his_non-lockable_jeep_to_the_uk. ;-)

didn't have a hatch, and it wasn't hot either; not even warm.

My first car was a Morris Minor 1000, which was stolen seven times in two
years.

I always got it back, with no damage. This was in the days before cars
had expensive radios (y'know, 15 years ago or more!)

Mind you, I did live near the town centre of Sunderland, and if it was
cold and/or wet, people didn't want to walk home from the club, so they 
"borrowed" cars quite often... I usually got it back within a day or two; 
the longest was a week, when it was parked in a back lane somewhere.

Peter.

    
    
    Got the car back, looks better than before it was stolen !!!
    
    I did try to get Bromleys to tell me what the total bill was, but they told
    me that they would get into trouble with the insurance dept.
    
    I wonder how long it will remain outside the house before the next
    time ..........
    
    Forgotten just how cramped the driving position actually was.
    
    

Hi,

Thanks to Roy Shelley for lending me his Fiesta RS-Turbo for the weekend.

I covered about 490 miles over the weekend, mainly motorway driving, but I
did have the chance to try the country roads around Henley on Thames.

I'm comparing the car mainly to my own Renault 5 GT Turbo.

Plus points for Fiesta RS-Turbo

+	Excellent acceleration, with good throttle response at all rpm.
	It's difficult to tell when the Turbo actually cuts in. The Fiesta
	is definitely set up much better than the Escort was.

+	Good Handling, especially for long distance cruising.

+	Good rattle free interior.

+	Low wind noise.

+	Good space for long loads (compared to R5 GTT)

Minus points for Fiesta RS-Turbo

-	Extremely noisy engine, especially at 3700 rpm (coinciding with
	indicated 80 mph). The buzz at 3700 rpm occasionally caused the
	interior to rattle. The vibration reaches to the steering wheel,
	and throttle pedal. Strangely enough, you can really feel the
	indicator on the steering wheel!

-	Dead & Heavy steering. The steering was much heavier than my
	Renault 5, almost unacceptably heavy. Either they should set up
	the chassis for light steering (like my car), or put good
	power steering on (like the Clio). The steering felt "dead", which
	resulted in less feel on country roads, but better perceived
	stability for motorways.

-	Cheap plastic interior. I was disappointed that the interior plastic
	was the same hard interior as that on my Girlfriend's Fiesta 1.1
	popular plus. I know the R5GTT isn't brilliant, but against the
	Clio, the Fiesta looks pretty poor.

-	There were occasional hesitations in pick up that made it difficult
	to drive smoothly.

On the whole then, I really liked it. I was difficult to convince before I
drove the car, but I am impressed. The superb accelaration made overtaking
a breeze. I'm sure I could do the same in my car, but I'd have to prepare
for it more. Overtaking wise, this car equals the GTE 16V (maybe even betters
it), and easily beats the Pug 205 Git, and (dare I say it!) the Renault 5 GT
Turbo. (There, I actually said it).

However, around country roads, I think there is very little to beat my car.

Mark.

I forgot to add, that a plus point in the R5GTT's favour was that
the more uniform shape of the hatch area (no intrusive suspension
struts) make it much better to load workstations in!

    
    Well it's going on Friday and this time it's legal !!!!
    
    Due to lack of space the R.S Turbo is being replaced by a boring old
    2 ltr Cavalier. Well at least it's practical (I've got another week of
    brain washing before I am finally convinced).
    
    Oh well the end of an era, I am off to cry in a corner !!
    
    Shaz

�                      -< Plus points..... Well it's blue >-
    
    At least it's less likely to 'go walkies' without your permission.
    
    J.R.

    Theft attempt number 3 last night.
    
    The plastic vents in the bonnet were prised out and broken. The
    cardboard-type cover on the battery was pushed to one side.
    
    This appeared to be an attempt to cut the battery leads and so disable
    the alarm, then break in and work on it at their 'leisure'.
    
    I suspect they were frightened off, as I think they might just about
    have managed to carry out the theft. 
    
    I shall have to think about alarming those vents. A bit of fuse wire
    across the back, with a relay to earth the interior light if the
    circuit is broken. Either that or a metal cover over the battery!
    
    Graham

    I've though about such things too.
    
    Remember if they can't get the bonnet vents off, they'll break the front
    grill.  If they can reach, they'll just disconnect the battery with the 
    bonnet shut in case of a pin switch protecting it.  Else they'll pop
    the bonnet using the exposed latch.
    
    Fellow Paranoid of Reading.

    We have identified a problem with Escort Turbos and now I suspect with
    Fiesta Turbos fitted with VSL alarms under the bonnet.  As already
    stated in this Note, it is possible to remove the O/S bonnet grille and
    unplug the wiring from the alarm unit situated next to the washer
    bottle.  In some cases, the wiring passes round the front of the washer
    bottle instead of where it should be, behind the washer next to the
    inner skin of the O/S/F wing.
    
    Drivers can help us by checking their alarm and if necessary simply
    re-routing the cable behind the washer bottle.
    
    Mr Mod could help us by X posting this reply into any Escort Turbo
    dedicated Note.
    
    Chris Palmer in my group has investigated this with VSL and we are
    currently trying to identify the vehicles concerned - if you need any
    assistance please call us but a simple check before you rush to the
    phone is your first move.
    
    Thanks
    Doug Arnold
    The Insurance Man

    
    I've recently had a quote from Car Fleet for a Fiesta RS Turbo which
    I'm considering ordering and the quote (I am a supplement holder) is
    768 (including a few extras). I'm curious as to whether this is rather
    high or if its in line with other quotes.
    
    -Tony

    Re. .246
    
    Tony, check out 1538.84. I listed a few quotes there you can compare
    yours with.
    
    Why not enter a reply to 1538 listing the price and the options.
    
    Its good to get some feedback on current quotes.
    
    Roy

Roy, 

Makes you realise what a good deal you got on your lease. Really missing the 
Fiesta, well only another 12 months left on the Cavalier. 

Shaz

    �Makes you realise what a good deal you got on your lease
    
    You said it !
    
    I'm seriosly thinking of shelling out for an alarm. If it gets nicked
    I'll be well out of pocket if I have to replace it.
    
    Yep, we got a good deal Shaz.
    
    Roy

    I was talking to a guy that worked for an RS dealer in Slough.
    Apparently production on The fiesta turbo will be finishing shortly
    in favour of the new 16v zeta engine.
    
    The well informed ARRODS::WINTERSS mentioned that it would have a short
    life span back in .23.
    
    The new XR3i (due out next spring I think) will have this new engine
    (1.8). I wonder how it will compare with the RS2000.
    
    Roy

     But I thought the new RS2000 was to be called the XR3i?

    Re: RS2000 = XR3i
    
    NO. The RS2000 is 2 ltr 16v, the XR3i soon to be realeased will have
    the 1.8 16v zeta engine. I believe both models were at the recent motor
    show. Anyone else comment on the new XR3i ?
    
    Roy

    XR3i = crap
    :^)
    
    I hope the old Fiesta RS Turbo doesn't dissapear quite so soon, because
    I think I may want to change my Escort for one. I can't see the
    non-turbo Zeta engined Fiesta being as fun to drive, or having the same
    low down welly. Plus turbo engines are easily tuned to give more power. 
    Has anyone read about the 200bhp conversion by Detection Techniques on
    the Fiesta RS. I think it involves a boost pressure of 16psi. Making it
    faster than a Porsche Carrera 2 to 100mph. Something like 13.* secs I
    think (!).
    
    I love turbo engines as the power comes in so low down the rev range,
    unlike non-turbo cars, esp 16 valvers.
    
    Long live the turbo !
    
    Gary.    

Ahhh Gi'day...�

>     I love turbo engines as the power comes in so low down the rev range,
>     unlike non-turbo cars, esp 16 valvers.

				 Get an M3.

    Attempt number 4 :-
    
    Yesterday I was in a meeting with my manager. At one point, he asked me
    how much longer I had my car for. I said, "2 years, if it doesn't
    disappear before that".
    
    When I came out of the meeting someone told me that they had heard a
    car alarm in our car park, looked out of the window and there were a
    couple of youths with my car bonnet up. One was legging it. The other
    was trying to stop the alarm. 
    
    They had released the bonnet from the outside. There is a switch that
    sets the alarm off if the bonnet is raised.
    
    The first two attempts made me angry. Then it was stolen (and my house
    was burgled). That made me determined that I wasn't going to be beaten.
    If the car had not turned up I would have had another (but not red).
    
    Earlier this month some damage was done in attempt number 3.
    
    I am now fed up. The Fiesta has been in our garage since then (my
    wife's car on the drive). What gets me most is the thought that there
    was someone messing about outside my house. I am going to rig up a
    couple of these infra-red operated lights when I get the time.
    
    Graham

    Sorry to hear you've had another break in attempt Graham.
    
    I'm surprised you can switch the alarm off under the bonnet. 
    
    Don't you have to use a key ?
    
    Roy. (still campaigning for an alarm)
    
    PS My wife used my RS the other night and forgot to lock it as I
    discovered the next morning. Fortunately no one had tried the door.
    This car is certainly popular with car thiefs.

    Wives eh?
    
    Don't you just love em ? :^)
    
    Gary (wifeless :-)

>>    was burgled). That made me determined that I wasn't going to be beaten.
>>    If the car had not turned up I would have had another (but not red).
    
    No matter how determined you may be, it seems to be pointless buying
    this particular car.  Alarms may help, but it is known that they
    don't stop determined thieves.  As you have found, the car may be
    damaged in the attempt - successful or not.
    
    To consider getting another seems like sheer folly !
    
    J.R.

    �Alarms may help, but it is known that they don't stop determined
    �thieves.

    Out of interest, how many folks know of cars fitted with VSL alarms
    that have been stolen. I have only heard of one. Apparantly a Cossie
    went missing from Wimgrove. The alarm had been disconnected and left in
    the car park !

    I certainly think the alarm saved Graham's car.

    Roy

    
    Car alarms aren't as tempremental as they used to be. My Calibra's
    alarm has only gone off a few times (mostly when the wife opened 
    the door - didn't work, though, she still likes driving it!) and never 
    when it was parked overnight outside my home.
    
    It would seem that a well fitted alarm (not easily accessible from
    outside) can only deter or prevent theft, it can't really do any harm
    and the nuisance factor seems to be very low now with improved
    sensitivity of alarms.
    
    Mark

>>       -< Can't do any harm
    
    I do agree with this statement, which is why I had one on the Lancia.
    
    In this most recently reported attempt on the Fiasco, it does seem as
    though the alarm stopped the car from being nicked (and probably has
    helped on other occasions).  It just seems like madness to me to get
    this particular model of car when they are so often targeted...
    
    Then again, it seems my Lancia was supposedly 'high risk', but it
    had no attempts on it that I know of.
    
    I also never took the car to Reading !!!
    
    J.R.

I would agree that alarms are getting better.

Most alarms that i hear "going off" are cheap "car accessory shop" and "DIY
fitted" versions, either that or it is some jerk in his merc who left his sun-
roof open and his ultra-sonics on.

I really am surprised that Digital do not fit alarms as standard on all cars
(i.e. make the �86 part of the standard car lease cost). Just the cars stolen
from DECpark in the last few months would probably pay for fitting the whole
of fleet with alarms!

With the insurance for cars such as the RS-Turbo increasing substantially, it
must pay to fit these alarms, if only to save the administrative expenses when
a car is stolen.

How many MAN-HOURS of time has been spent in this conference alone, arguing
the pros-and-cons of alarms?

mb

 >>   Out of interest, how many folks know of cars fitted with VSL alarms
 >>   that have been stolen. I have only heard of one. Apparantly a Cossie
    
    My Orion was nicked last February. It had a VSL alarm fitted and armed
    at the time.
    
    Phil Gill.
                                                   

    Well I've now had the RS just over a year and am still very pleased
    with it, although it let me down with a starting problem during the
    Winter which turned out to be a starter motor supressor module
    (whatever that is).
    
    Apparently the Fiesta RS Turbo has now been discontinued in favour
    of a new model called RS 1800 which has the 130bhp Zeta engine as fitted
    to the new XR3i.
    
    I'd be interested to see the  performance figures for this new model
    to compare it with the turbo.
    
    Roy

Hmmm the Cavalier is due for renewal at the end of the year maybe, the 16V
Fiasco could be an ideal replacement with less baby equipment to cart around.



Shaz

    Without a turbo, a chip isn't going to do much for the new 16V Fiesta
    :-(
    
    Gary.

    Well there hasn't been any life in this note for a while.
    
    I happened to notice a black Fiesta RS turbo (H reg) for sale at
    a garage this morning. It was the exact same model as the one I drive.
    The asking price on the windscreen was �6,500. I didn't see the mileage
    but I was surprised that the price was so low. Twenty months ago when
    my car was new it retailed at �13k (I don't know what discount the
    lease company got). The dealer obviously didn't pay as much as �6�k,
    probably around �5. 
    
    This goes to show that hot hatches no longer hold their value well. I guess
    this is because they are so expensive to insure.
    
    It will be interesting to see how much Hertz want for my car at the end
    of the lease. Maybe it will be a bargain. 
    
    Roy

    A few years down the line since originating this note and the lease is
    nearly up on my beloved RS turbo.
    
    The mileage is approaching 59,000 so the original 30 month lease period
    was just about right.
    
    This is by far the best car I have had by a long way (but it is not
    everyones cup of tea). 
    
    Only one problem that is manifesting itself lately and that is the
    engine is 'pinking' very badly at times and I wondered what could be
    causing this. The garage say they can't do anything about it because
    the engine management system can't be touched.
    
    Any ideas ?
    
    Royston

    re .268
    
    1) Try different petrol
    
    2) Try new or different plugs
    
    Andrew

    I used to get a similar problem with my Cosworth. The answer was to run
    colder plugs.
    It may be worth having the inside of the combustion chamber inspected
    to see if you have a build up of carbon deposits which could be the
    problem.
    
    Rob