Conference vmszoo::rc

    
    
    
                           Hello,
    
    I am a belgian (EUROPE) glider pilot. I build my own models from
    scrath including body moulding, canopies warm pressing, control
    electronics, and so on.
    
      I have participated to about 50 gliders contests with gliders
    from 1 meter wingspan to more then 4 meters. Of which kind of contest
    are you talking about? 
    
      If you or one of your friend is intersted in moulding glider
    fuselages, it would be a pleasure for me to share my experience.
    If you give me your address, I can send you some pictures of my
    models!
    
    
                                    Philippe CLEMENT
    
                                    The highest flyer
    
    
    

    Jeff,
    I don't know exactly how your eastern contests may be set up, but
    if they follow AMA rules you should have the AMA # on the wing,
    a magic marker with at least 1/2" high #'s is usually ok, if you
    don't want to use stick-on #'s.
    Fer shure bring a stop watch, you'll need it, since contestants
    time each other.
    
    You'll probably be flying off of winches, and most CDs won't allow
    other launchers because it confuses things. Also, you'll be giving
    away a lot of launch height if you use a hi-start against a winch.
    
    HOw many winches they have, will determine how many can launch at
    once, although there is never a requirement that simultaneous launches
    take place. In fact you want to avoid such things. They may have
    a winch master who will direct you to the open winch and tell you
    when it's clear to launch.
    
    Order of flight is up to the CD, type of event should be noted on
    the entry form or in the contest listing of M.A.
    It should state something like, "441, 444 with t6 landing option",
    then you can look up in the AMA rule book, what that entails or
    call the CD. At any rate, you should find out in advance what the
    tasks will be. Good luck, have fun !
    
    BTW, I notice in MA a listing for a contest in Conn. by the Wincanton
    Flying Club. I love that name. It conjures up images of tanned young
    bucks pulling up to the field in their Auburn Boat tail Speedsters,
    pulling out an immaculate Korda Wakefield, while girls named Buffie,
    Nan, and Eleanor, with white sweaters tied around their necks flock
    around them squealing in delight. No ?
    
    Terry

    Terry,
    
       Ummm... How old did you say you were? Have you been to a contest in
    this half of the 1900s?  8^) P^)
    
    One of the tasks I would presume will be precision landing. Never being 
    to one of these before, how are the landing areas laid out and how do 
    they determine points. I've heard several people say that the flying is 
    nothing, everyone (in the running 8^) maxes out and the winner is 
    determined in the landing circle.

    To answer the rest of your questions in .0 :
    
    Assuming this will be a thermal duration contest, there will probably
    be 3 rounds with a spot landing. Normally the time increases for
    each round, 3-5-7, 4-6-8, 6-8-10, or whatever they decide.
    They usually don't specify any times greater than 8-10 minutes because
    it makes the contest too long.
    
    Scoring is done one point per second, starting when the tow line
    drops off and ending when the plane touches the ground. SMTS events
    stop the time when the plane stops moving. You have to come to rest
    right side up and without losing any parts. YOur time for the round
    is zero if you violate these.
    
    If it's a precision duration event, then you must touch the ground
    exactly at the specified time for the round. Going over the time
    results in a penalty, typically one point per second, but this is
    variable.
    
    Landing points are typically scored at a max of 100 if the nose
    of the plane is right on the center stake of the tape marker, down
    to one point at the far end of the tape. The tape is usually
    25 ft. if they are using a circular landing zone.
    
    If using a rectangular zone, points are measured 100" each side
    of the center line. The rectangle is 200" X 25 ft.
    
    These are a few of the commonly used tasks. You really need a rule
    book to understand all the variations.
    
    Terry

    1900's ???? So that's my problem ! You mean to tell me that green
    soap and glycerin is obsolete as rubber lube ?
    And just who are these young whippersnappers, Orville and Wilbur?
    
    notes collision, see .4.
    
    The rectangular landing zone is a little easier to score in, as
    you only need to keep the nose on the center line and stop inside
    the boundaries, but you are usually required to approach within
    a specified 180 arc, ditto on the circle zone. Sometimes, as at
    the regionals last Jan. , they have a green portion of the arc which
    you must pass over, as small as 45 degrees.
    
    They are right about the contest being won on landing points, this
    almost always happens. Sometimes the tasks will be complicated by
    using the triathlon method whereby you have to land on an even or
    odd minute, and suffer a points penalty for going over, and having
    to declare your chosen minute after launch. ie, declaring a landing
    at 6 minutes and then flying 7, would lose you more points than
    landing at 5 min. This gets so complicated that there is a full
    page chart in the rule book on how to score it.
    
    Terry

    
    Jim,  The contests I attended in CXO wer layed out in such a way that
    the winch lines were to the side of the pits.  The landing ribbons 
    (one for each winch used) were positioned down wind of the winches
    app. 100- 200 ft.  The events were precision duration.  As terry has
    said you get one point for every second you plane is airborne from the
    point at which the toe line comes off of the toe hook until the plane
    comes in contact with the ground.  If upon contact with the ground 
    a part of the plane comes off the flight is a ZERO.  If the plane comes
    to rest upside down, you get credit for the flying time but the landing
    is scored a zero.  
    
    	EX; 5 minute duration = 300 seconds.  if the flight time was 5
    minutes 5 seconds your flight score is calculated as 5x60x1-5=295 
    Assuming you landed in the scoring area you then add your landing
    points to your flight ponts to get a total.
    
    
    
    		usually at the start of a contest the CD will instruct the
    contestents on the task(s) to be flown and the time limit for each
    round.  Assuming he has set a 1 hour time limit that means that you
    must launch within the one hour time frame to get credit for the round.
    
    One hint...  single out the better fliers and wait until they get ready
    to launch.  Then launch and follow their leads.  Understand however
    what planes they are flying and the planes capability.   Some good
    flyers knowing that they are being followed will such another flyer
    into going for a particular area only to lead then into sink and then
    they high tail it over to where they really expected to find lift.  A
    way of avoiding this is to wait a couple of minutes and launch after
    the better flyers are already up and really looking for lift.
    
    
    
    Tom

    How much control do you have over when you launch? Is there a
    predefined order at the winch or is it truely a matter of when the
    feeling moves you (i.e. when the thermal goes by) I was thinking I
    might want to be someone's timer and fly later in the round to see what
    the field lift patterns are. Every field has a "hot" corner and the
    regulars know the field. The Maine contest is on a turf farm so there
    will be very uniform areas I assUme.
    
    What is thermal etiquette? Turn the same direction? First/top man has
    priority? Build strong and t-bone him? 8^)
    
    How is the landing scored given the 25 foot "zone"? Percentage of the
    25 feet?

>    of us the low down??  Do we need to bring stop watches?  High starts?

Yes, bring a stop watch - but if you forget that won't hold you back.

Yes, bring the hi-start but don't expect to use it.  Frequently after
a contest is over several folks stay around and fly a while.  Then
out come the hi-starts and private winches and the club winch has to 
go home because the custodian is leaving.

>    Is it required that our AMA numbers be on the wing?  (Obviously there
>    will be identification inside).

No.
    
>    How is the flight order determined?  How many planes fly at once?  How
>    many rounds are usually held?  How is the scoring done??

Usually it is pretty random with lots of sandbagging going on.
As many planes as they can put up and not have a frequency conflict.
3

Scoring is usually 1 point per second up the the target time - usually 
6 or 7 minutes and subtract 1 point per second if you stay up too long.
Some kind of landing bonus - usually a graduated tape with points marked
off on it with 100 at the center and 0 at the end - usually 4 points per
inch.  The actually details are covered in the pilots meeting.

>    Anything else??
>    Thanks!
>    jeff (I don't know what I'm supposed to do, but I'm going to have fun!)
>    
>    (Of course I still need to finish rebuilding the Drifter...)

Don't worry about a thing - just bring your stuff and sign up.  
If your worried about the winch you can have an expert run the winch for you.
    
Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    re  .8
    
    er, more like 4 points per ft. on a 25 ft. tape but we know what
    you meant. ;^).
    
    Some contests enforce the AMA # on the wing, some don't, that's
    why it's handy to have a magic marker along.
    
    If they have a launch time window, then you'll have to launch within
    the window, regardless of conditions. In most thermal duration events
    they don't specify a window, but freq. allocations determine how
    long you can sandbag. If a guy on your freq. is waiting to fly his
    round, and your're sandbagging, expect to hear some whining to the
    CD right shortly.
    In SMTS events you always have a window, so there is less flexibility
    and less whining.
    
    Terry

    IN CXO when I flew you sandbagged all you wanted until you picked up
    the pin.  Once you had the pin you had to fly.  If there was a problem
    you gave up the pin.
    
    Tom

    In a smaller contest the pin system works, but in a larger contest
    you get your xmtr. only when it's time for your freq. to fly.
    The impound guy/gal determines who flys when. After you land the
    xmtr. goes immediately back to impound. At the Nats they had runners
    to grab the xmtr. out of your hands and rush it back to impound.
    
    Terry
    

    Does the contest/impound take care of frequency control? (some local
    clubs require members to make and bring their own pins) Is it
    reasonable to just show up with proper frequency identification on the
    Tx?

    Any experienced club will do all the freq. control by means of the
    impound procedure. They just won't let two radios on the same freq.
    get off the table at the same time. They may also use a pin and
    board to help track things, but it's the physical location of the
    xmtr. at any given time that they really care about.
    
    Also, some contests like to enforce the AMA reg. that requires that
    you have your freq. # on the antenna AND a red streamer that says
    72 MHz , aircraft use only, etc.
    
    The bigger the contest the more likely for all this to happen.
    
    Terry

    My, my. So much advice. All good, too. But I have to agree the most
    with Kay: bring your plane and enjoy! Don't expect to ace the first
    contest, it takes a couple to get used to the routine. And the rules
    change at virtually every contest, so we all have to deal with it. I
    just like the flying, you meet some interesting people and see all
    kinds of gliders, and there's always one or two pilots who show you
    what REAL flying is about!
    
    See you there.
    
    Dave

>          <<< Note 1319.9 by ELMAGO::TTOMBAUGH "A Fistful of Epoxy" >>>
...
>    Some contests enforce the AMA # on the wing, some don't, that's
>    why it's handy to have a magic marker along.

That is an obsolete rule - not in the books any more.
Now it is part of the safety code (I believe) and it clearly
states that your name and AMA number can optionally be placed
somewhere inside your plane.  If I'm wrong - please point me
to your reference.

I don't have AMA numbers on the outside of any of my gliders
and if any CD requires it then I will just enter spectator/complainant
mode.  Unless of course you can show me the black and white - in which
case I'll be back in the paint room again tonight :-)

Also there were several references to scoring zero if the plane
crashes or flips over.

This is covered in the regulations under sections 12.1.3 (Lost parts
rule) and 12.1.3 (Inverted landing rule).  In both cases all you loose
are you landing points - the flight time still counts.

At every contest that I've been to (most New England contests) if you loose 
parts of flip you only blew the landing.  Some it is even more lax - one
CD said if the plain is flyable without parking lot repair then the
landing counts.

I once scored about 2 points on a flight where I folded the wing.  My timer
timed the fuselage to the ground !

Points don't help a lot unless your maxing every flight and getting consistent
landings.  I consider it a win if I go home with out a repair job and don't
spend the day in the parking lot repairing.  I've found that the less I worry
about placing the more fun I have - also the lower scores!

Speaking of the old buzzard - I have this policy about practice.  I abstain
from last minute practice because I increase the probability of my being able
to make the contest by not risking my plane(s) the day (or week) before. 
Unlike Jim who want to get in more practice to be "READY" - my planes are 
ready now and if I go out "just to practice" then I'll surely screw something
up.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    re .15
    
    I recall the requirement for i.d. in the model. I thought the 90-91
    rule book still states the requirement for external #.
    
    If that is no longer true then Vinylwrite has lost a lot of business.
    I've got 5-6 sets of AMA #'s from them, in .5 size ready to be
    slapped on upcoming projects.
    
    Terry
    

    Re .15 Practice.
    
    Yeah but...
    
    You're also taking planes that have flown before 8^) If I don't get
    10-15 flights on each plane and feel comfortable about being able to
    fly them then I'm not comfortable dragging the family to Maine. I'm not
    looking to be competitive, I'm looking to be comfortable. I'd also like
    to stress test the planes a little before I stick them up on a winch
    and find out that there was a weak spot in the structure.

    Yes, the weekend went pretty well.  Although I didn't place very well, 
    I did get to stress test Dan Snow's Spirit with a good zoom launch..
    
    Why am I writing this here, you ask...
    
    I have a question about entering scores...
    
    Many of us registered in both unlimited and 2 meter with our 2 meter 
    ships.  (I think this was Jim's idea)  We figured it would get more 
    winch practice and generally more flying time (which we did).  But as
    a result, it was never clear which flight we were taking in each round.
    
    Do you have to declare which event you are flying before you launch?
    Or can you wait and see what the flight score is, and decide then which
    chit to fill out??  (Certainly you can't take both flights and then
    take the best one, can you?)
    
    I'm not sure what the "fair" method is, but it appeared that more than
    one of them was being used yesterday...
    
    ------
    
    So, do all contests have winch problems like yesterday??
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    

    Jeff,
    
    	The winch problems of Saturday were pretty common. The setups they
    were using were new and I don't think all the bugs were worked out but
    you can generally expect some winch problems.
    
    	The way the contest was run yesterday, you could have applied the
    flight to which ever class you wanted. You SHOULD declare your flight
    before you start. That's not to say you have to tell someone which
    class your flying in that round, but alot of this stuff is left to the
    honor system. Just like timing for each other. It would have been
    real easy to pad the scores, but judging by the times everyone was
    recording, everyone was being square.
    
    	The last contest I flew at Salisbury worked basically the same way.
    I had the Oly entered in both standard and unlimited class. I just 
    declared (to myself) which flight I was going up on, and that's the
    chit I turned in.
    
    Steve

    You really should declare the class you are flying before the launch.
    At Salisbury, you're supposed to give the proper chit to the timer
    before flying, so there's your declaration. 
    
    Note that the Eastern Soaring League runs contests a little differently.
    Classes are divided by pilot skill, not plane size. The two classes are
    Sportsman and Expert. To be an expert, you have to have amassed a
    certain number of points in ESL contests. All others enter Sportsman,
    with any plane you care to use. This way there is no hanky-panky with
    stacking the best flights in one particular class to score highly. This
    also forces the better flyers to compete against one another, and gives
    the rest of us hackers a fighting chance to place highly.
    
    Dave
    

>    sandwiches, signs, winches, retrievers, back-up retrievers, back-ups to
>    the back-up retrievers, publicity, scoring aids, etc. 

>    Alton      who will be taking notes at Sudbury Saturday!

At Sudbury you will see (weather permitting) the best retriever system going.
Mopeds - in the past they have had some not so hot (reliable) Mopeds but
their heart is in the right place.  Nothing can go wrong on a moped that
will crash a plane on launch.  Several things can go wrong with any other
retriever (lines snag on the tail, snag in the feeder spool, etc.) that
will crash a plane on launch. 

Perhaps more important all the retrievers have reliability problems
when not used on nice grass.  Mopeds are not labor intensive.  That is
you do not need an army of young people ready and willing to drive back
and forth all day.  Flyers are eager to take a few rides (cause it's
kinda fun - especially if it is really hot and humid).

Ironically Mopeds are probably even cheaper than a retriever.

Think Mopeds.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    The subject of "normal" landing versus "tent pegging" was discussed
    some time ago and as I recall generated quite a bit of debate. I
    don't want to create another rat hole here but will enter my 2 cents
    worth.
    
    To me, probably the part of flying that requires the greatest amount
    of skill, be it power or glider, is landing. Virtually everyone that
    is leaning to fly can control the plane up in the air very well, and 
    even make good take offs 9 out of 10 times. The problem comes in trying
    to land. This is where I think everyone has the most difficulty and
    requires the most training.
    
    On the other hand, ANYONE that can get fairly close to the ground under
    control can push full down and smack the earth. Not a whole lot of
    skill required there. All of that is magnified when your trying to land
    ACCURATELY.
    
    To me, landings should have to at least LOOK like normal landings in
    order to count. Tent pegging should be outlawed. Landing accuracy 
    should be a matter of skill.
    
    Steve

    I think that having so much emphasis on landing accuracy is foolish for
    glider contests.  How many power events include "SPOT Landing"?  From
    what I've seen, it decides many contests - and flying comes second.
    
    Charlie
    

    Landings make or break most flights for people. 100 points for a
    perfect landing offsets 1:40 in flight time in most contests (one point
    per second) Much better to dork a landing early than try for 5 more
    seconds with another circle near the spot. Perfect duration and no
    landing points would have placed you back in the pack at the CRRC
    contest. I agree that the contest emphasis is wrong but that's the way
    they're running them at the moment.
    
    This is causing people to build planes which can withstand dorking,
    which is dangerous when they hit someone/something. 

    Landings are one judged event in all AMA pattern catagories.
    
    If I were a CD of a sailplane contest and I wanted to 
    reduce the amount of "tent pegging" that goes on I'd
    position the landing circle on the hardest piece of
    ground I could find.  That way a tent pegged aircraft 
    would have to pay for the pilots inaccuracy in landing.
    
    Tom

    
    There's only so much you can do with a glider. 1...keep it thermaling
    as long as possible, and 2....land as accurately as possible. Keep in
    mind that I'm not talking about F3B type stuff here.
    
    All thermal duration contests take those two points into account on
    every contest. I think what would make a difference is lessening the
    landing points so that it had much less of an impact on your over all
    score. After all, these ARE all "thermal duration" contests with
    "bonus" landing points. Maybe landing points shouldn't account for any
    more than say 20 % of your overall score.
    
    That would keep the THERMAL DURATION contest just that and throw in
    just enough balance (with extra landing points) to help offset
    those flights where there just wasn't anything up there even though
    the guy just before you spec'd out.
    
    Steve

    At Rhinebeck, part of the "mission" event is spot landing...  I agree
    with what Steve is saying, but juding "spot" landings in power planes
    is difficult...  The Rhinebeck rules state: "The actual landing spot
    is defined as that point where, in the opinion of the judges, the
    aircraft is no longer airborne."
    
    Well, let me tell you...  There are lots of opinions about what is
    still airborne...  Some judges there rule that it is when the wheels
    first touch even if there is a big bounce.  Some rule when the airplane 
    touches for the last time.  Some judges ignore small bounces, other
    don't.  Which is right??
    
    So getting back to glider contests, I agree that tent-pegging although
    legal doesn't measure skill.  But judging landings as good or bad will
    cause a lot of disparity in the scoring.
    
    What if rather than the "did it or didn't it break" rule, if the rule
    was that the plane must be resting flatly on its lowest surface.   So 
    shark tooth landings are fair, but any tent-pegged landing would be
    thrown out...
    
    This still doesn't solve it for power spot landings.  And until they
    change the rules, I will not risk losing a perfect round for a
    "graceful" landing.  The next guy is going to dork it in for his 
    perfect score, so why shouldn't I??
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    

    Two things that I notice helps reduce the importance of landing
    points is to fly man-on-man rounds with normalized scores. There's
    no particular relationship here, it just seems to work out that
    way.
    
    The other is to fly SMTS events. This can be done sucessfully mixing
    aileron and floater type ships. We do it all the time without
    compliant, or have two classes for aileron/non-aileron.
    Even with a spot landing added to the duration round, spot landing
    points never loom as large in deciding the outcome. 
    
    It's interesting in F3B, which does have a spot landing requirement
    at the end of the duration task, noone practices for it, mentions
    it, or pay any attention to it, at least in those F3B contests that
    I've witnessed. The attitude is:"Ya've gotchter land sometime at
    the end of duration. Ya might as well land in a spot. So what's
    the big deal?"
    
    Terry

    Also, a close interpretation of the landing rules, at least in SMTS
    events, not sure about AMA T.D. rules, will reveal that your time
    stops when the plane FIRST touches the ground, but if it should
    do a touch-and-go, you can continue with the flight and go for the
    landing points. 
    This feature can be put to good use if you are reaching the end
    of the time but are still traveling too fast for a good spot landing
    attempt.
    Swoop down, brush the grass, stop the clock, pull up and continue
    with your landing approach now with all the time in the world to
    get set up. I've seen it done but never had the guts to try it myself.
    
    Terry

    Maybe the landing "bonus" points should only be counted up to a max
    flight.  Example:  5 minute duration. (60x5=300 points)

        Flyer 1 : 2 minutes (= 120 pts.)  w/ 95 landing pts = 215 total
        Flyer 2 : 4.5 mins = 270 pts w/ 95 landing = 300 Total points

    NOTE: so when people max out, then there is no point in dorking the
    landing 'cause it woun't count for anything anyway.  The landing
    points would only be useful if you don't max.

    ... just an idea ...

                       _____
                      |     \
                      |      \                          Silent POWER!
      _        ___________    _________   |            Happy Landings!
     | \      |           |  |         |  |
     |--------|-  SANYO  + ]-|  ASTRO  |--|              - Dan Miner
     |_/      |___________|  |_________|  |
                      |       /           |     " The Earth needs more OZONE,
                      |      /                       not Castor Oil!! "    
                      |_____/

    Re: -.1
    
    The problem with that system is at the end of the contest you would
    have a whole gaggle of people with perfect scores.  Tom Keisling won
    Sunday with 2854 points out of 3000 possible, 6 rounds flown. Lincoln
    Ross was close behind with 2838, and Terry Luckenbach with 2736. Each
    one of them had very nearly their max time on each flight, with at
    least some landing points. At this level of skill, you need a very
    challenging task to determine the winner.
    
    What's interesting is that the most damage I've ever seen during
    landings was in a contest in which the bonus was for landing anywhere
    within a 100 (50?) foot circle. It was either 100 points or nuthin. And
    people were wiping their planes out left and right!  I can't figure it
    out.
    
    I think the spot landing task is a good measure of a pilot's ability to
    put the plane exactly where he wants it. On a really windy day, it
    truly separates the men from the boys.
    
    Dave
    

    I still think it takes *MUCH* less skill to overfly a spot, and jab
    down elevator, than to touch down at that spot - airliner fashion.

    Ever since I committed to organizing an open glider contest for the
    club, I've observed other such contests with a different viewpoint.
    (At Sunday's Downeast Soaring Club contest in Biddeford, the CD was new
    at the job, and he screwed up in several ways.  As a result we gave him
    grief, but to tell the truth, I'll be lucky to do as well on my first
    time as he did on his.)  Here are some of my conclusions about running
    a contest:

    1.	Ensure at least three flights per event

        Do what you have to do to get three.  Armstrong didn't realize that
        you need three to have the contest count for an LSF accomplishment.
        And there is the was-it-worth-it factor; I drove a total of six
        hours for four [short] flights; I could have driven six minutes for
        twenty flights near home.  Cameradie and spectating and B.S. are
        worth something, but .......  More flying would have made me feel
        better about the day.

    2.	Get hustle at the winches

        Except for drop-outs, the number of launches required will be the
        number of flights per event times the number of entrants in that
        event summed over all events.  To a first approximation, the
        drop-outs will be offset by the pop-offs.  For a five hour contest,
        simple arithmetic tells you what your launch rate must be.

        At Biddeford it took about 5 hours to get in about 84 launches. 
        That's an average of about 3.6 minutes per launch.  They had two
        winches, so that's about seven minutes per winch!  This despite
        that rule that you had a limit of five minutes to get up after
        being called.  They did have winch troubles, but even so, this was
        too slow.

        By contrast, the CRRC contest in Sudbury a week earlier did exhibit
        hustle.  If I recall correctly, they flew one event with five
        flights and 44 contestants using four winches in the five hours. 
        That's 1.36 minutes per launch, or 5.45 minutes per winch.  And
        Sudbury also had winch troubles.

        The flight duration would seem to relatively unimportant.  At
        Biddeford the average number of planes in the air concurrently was
        about two.  I don't recall seeing more than three at once.  At
        Sudbury there was often as many as seven.  The average might have
        been four.  The longer the duration and the higher the aggregate
        launch rate, the higher the number of planes in the air, but unless
        the winches are waiting for pilots that are already up, the
        duration should not affect the launch rate.

        The landing scoring affects the time a pilot spends on a flight,
        but like duration, it shouldn't affect the launch rate.

        So the launch rate depends only on discipline and on the equipment.

    3.	Keep the rules simple and posted

        Not only should the rules be written, but clarifications to the
        rules should also be written and posted.  Armstrong had a lot on
        his mind, and he blew it in this regard.  But I would have done as
        badly in similar circumstances.

    4.	Worry mostly about frequency management and flight order

        This is John Nilsson's advice, but it seems right to me as well. 
        Congestion on channel 34 contributed to the delays at Biddeford.

    More later, maybe.  It's late.

    Alton, scared about what he has gotten into

    Alton,
    
    	When I was in CXO we used to use three winchs at a Sunday contest.
    Two saw full duty with the third acting sa a back-up in case something
    happened to one of the other two. 
    	The only other difference was that there was no specific flight
    order. Rather it was "open winches" and the competitor choose when 
    he wanted to fly.  We'd set a time limit for the round, usually
    1 1/2 hours and it was the responsibility of the competitor to
    monitor frequency use and pick his/her time to fly.  If you didn't get 
    your flight in for the round and the winches had been idle at all
    then you didn't get any sympothy from anyone.  It was your own fault.
    I'll tell you that this seemed to work really well but then all of
    the flyers were acustomed to this operating procedure.
    
    
    Tom

    Al,
    
    At the Biddeford contest, they actually gave you a zero for flight time
    over 6 minutes? Wow. I certainly don't agree with that scoring
    strategy. It doesn't make much sense to me. To penalize someone so
    severely for a transgression that amounts to a fraction of a second is
    absurd. It no longer is a test of the pilots skill, it's now up to
    luck. If you want to penalize long flights, there is a scoring system
    that deducts more points for being late than early. 
    
    When it comes to keeping the winches running, I think nothing beats
    having a couple helpers on mopeds. That way you don't need retriever
    lines, which have plenty of problems. And when there's a line break,
    you don't have to wait 5 minutes for some to walk out, tie it, and walk
    back.
    
    And to run the contest smoothly, you need MANPOWER. Lots of helpers.
    
    Dave
                                                               

    

    
    Again in CXO the contests wer held every two week at the club site.
    On the off weeks a contest was held at another club in the Denver
    area.  The flyers were the "Manpower" that kept the meet going.
    As an unwritten rule you'd always go out and shag at least as many
    lines as you yourself expected to fly flights.  Most tinmes even the
    CD was able to get his flights in.  We have 20-30 flyers at each meet
    at had no problems getting the flights in. At time there would be one
    one or two planes up.  Then at other times I can remember eight planes
    up all hunting for that Max.
    
    
    Tom  

    The one thing I do like about the last Bidderford contest was
    what we were talking about a few notes ago. Landing points. I
    like the way they ran it. Your either in, or your out. If your in,
    everybody gets the same points and the points are low enough that
    you don't get more points for landing that flying. With the exception
    of someone coming in hot and being in danger of over shooting the
    circle therefore nosing it over, or someone coming in short and pulling 
    the nose up for that last grasp at some altitude and stalling it in, 
    I'll be the landings were MUCH more normal this time.
    
    Steve

    To continue the landing rat hole, consider this proposal:
    
    "Dorked/speared/javelin landings will result in a penalty of 50% of the
    landing points.  The plane must skid in the judgement of the timer."
                                    ----        ----------------------
    
    
    Alton

    Besides the usual Biddeford-style unlimited and possibly two meter
    classes for the contest I'm arranging, I am considering the following
    as a warm-up, fun event.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Brief HLG fun event (any size, but it must be tossed, not towed)

    Tossed salad --- HLG all up [and down] for fifteen minutes

    	Fifteen minute window, up to five tosses, score is the total
    	airborne time in seconds before the fifteen minutes are up.

    	Frequency management for this one event will be   all channels 
    	at once; duplicates will be avoided by a first-one-registered-
    	flies-while-the-other-watches rule.  If there is more than one
    	such spectator, we may split the event.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    The field is large enough to make collisions unlikely if the
    contestants spread out before the start signal.  I could mow 
    lots of landing circles if landing points were to be part of
    the picture.  Except for the last, landing measurements would
    complicate the frenzy of launchings.

    The intent here is to have a fun event for the early birds that would
    be all over before the start of the real contest.  The emphasis is on
    "all over [in less than 1/2 hour, start to finish]".  I would expect to
    award a prize to the winner to make the competition real.

    There might be a need to have two heats if for no other reason than a
    shortage of timers.  That would push the total time up near an hour and
    encroach on the contest time.  A solution then might be to shorten the
    window to ten minutes, four tosses.

    Comments invited.  If I'm to make an ass of myself, let it be amongst
    friends, not strangers.

    Alton who became a grandfather last night.      Hot damn!

    Re: .37
    
    Personally I wouldn't want to be the timer having to call a hard
    landing that didn't stab in. I still think the inside/outside points/no
    points method would work better and the timer is just an observer. Make
    the timer a judge and they will be harder to come by...

    I don't think judging a landing would be that difficult. Consider
    this. If your learning to fly power, and your constantly making
    your landings on the spinner or nose gear, you havn't learned how
    to land yet.
    
    I think the way the points are given will automatically smooth out
    the landings. I like the way the last Bidderford contest was
    handled landing points wise. 25 points won't necessarily make or
    break the contest for you. It places much less emphasis on landing
    than flying. You either get them or you don't. If this were the rule
    at all the contests, pilots would soon realize that they didn't have
    to make crash landings to get points and would also soon realize that
    the potential damage and actual wear and tear on the glider isn't
    worth the 25 points there getting. I think that would make pilots
    concentrate on flying and make much more normal landings into the
    circle.

    This is an update on the contest mentioned in 546.14; the publicity 
    went out yesterday, so there is some firmness to the arrangements. 
    I took the advice of my friends: the contest is quite ordinary now. 
    They were right; my first contest is going to be hard enough without
    getting too inventive.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Summer of '91 New Boston Glider Contest        Saturday, September 14th

    Open class and perhaps a separate two meter competition
    		first priority is to have at least three flights per class

    Plus a brief HLG fun event 
    		(any size, but it must be tossed, not towed or powered)

    Precision duration with graduated landing  (details to be announced)

    Location: New Boston, NH (see note 15.72 for detailed directions)

    Open to all AMA members     $10 covers all classes, prizes and  lunch

    Frequency control  a staffed impound with a swapped pin system*

    1991 listed or upgraded radios only

    Except for the HLG, separate prizes for Sportsmen and Expert

    Registration 8 to 10 --- only those registered by 10 are assured of lunch

    Launching:  two winches (a big one and an ordinary one)
    		launch times are scheduled and not very discretionary *

    HLG fun event:   all up for fifteen minutes (maybe only ten)

    	Fifteen minute window, up to five tosses, score is total airborne time

        Frequency control for this one event will be all channels at once; 
        duplicates will be avoided by a first-one-registered-flies rule; if
        there is more than one unwilling spectator, the event will be split

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Comments:

    
    Swapped pin frequency control:

        At Sudbury they knew which frequencies were out, but it took time
        to identify who had a pin.  At Biddeford, you swap a numbered tag
        for the pin, so it takes less time to identify the flier, but the
        tags were less than perfect.  I intend to buy clothespins to
        function as the tags and to write the pilot's name on the pin; the
        flier and board pins are always swapped on both the board and on
        the radio.  In the impound the radio's clothespin is an/another
        identification of the owner.  When two people use the same radio,
        this does become flawed.
    
    Launch time freedom/regimentation:

        At Sudbury, pilots were put into groups according to frequency and
        for launch times a group was called (by calling the individuals). 
        That seemed to work rather well; the groups provided a natural
        queue to supply the winches with ready pilots.  At Biddeford the
        last 2.5 meets, the pilot was called individually but either late
        or not sufficiently soon to ensure good winch throughput. Moreover, 
        the pilot had FIVE minutes to launch after being called.  Not good. 

        I'm inclined to call individually (or in pairs) a few minutes
        before expected launch time and then to allow only sixty seconds
        after the winch is ready.  I want throughput without being a pain
        in the tail about it or being unreasonable.
    
    Free lunch cut-off:

        For a small contest on a small budget, lunch is a risk variable. 
        Sudbury had a hiatus in food availability and then (I think) a
        surplus.  Biddeford lost money on the July contest.  I have decided
        to have lunch a made-to-order thing; there is time between ten and
        noon to go out and buy/make grinders --- no risk; fresh lunch;
        possibly a pilot's choice of flavor --- but I have to shut off the
        sign-up.  At most I might have only two or three extras for late
        comers and/or spectators.

    Prizes and my budget:

        The first eight or nine entrants pay for the fixed expenses like
        the Port-a-potty; the rest provide money for prizes and [possibly]
        a future club winch.  I don't have the lead time for manufacturers,
        so there is a management decision/risk here --- what to get for
        prizes?   Suggestions welcomed.  I'll have a supply of Thornburg's
        book in the truck, but otherwise little on-the-spot freedom.

    HLG event:

        I dropped any plans for landings on this.  Without landings it
        becomes short and sweet and uncomplicated.  Anyone who catches a
        thermal wins (and should), otherwise it will be won by people like
        Sweeney and Walter who toss and hand-catch continuously.

    Alton, who listens to all suggestions

        Re:    <<< Note 546.17 by BRAT::RYDER "perpetually the bewildered beginner" >>>

        Al,
        
                Another frequency/pin control system that may work really
        well:
        
                Pilot  has pin  with  number,  frequency  controller  has
        frequency pins PLUS a set of numbered pins 1 - 100.
        
                Pilot is called and  given  5 minutes to report.  He then
        hands his pin and is  handed  the  frequency  pin  AND  the  next
        sequential pin.  The sequential pin  is  a  launch sequence!  The
        winch master calls pilots up by number.   If a number isn't ready
        and doesn't have a good reason sandbagging is  declared  and  the
        pilot gets a zero.  Sequence pins are returned with the frequency
        pin and recycled.
        
                This  system  has  been  used  and totally eliminates the
        traditional sandbagging routines.
        
        Anker

    My [first as CD] contest is over, and I'm dead tired, but here while
    it is fresh are my post-partum opinions.  We did some things right and
    some not so right.  Of the not-so's, some were planned and some were
    mistakes of the moment.

    The format of HLG-fun then unlimited-winch then HLG-fun is a winner. 
    The staff gets to decide the flight order while the pilots are having a
    ball, then later the scorekeeping is finished while they have more fun. 
    That's better than having the pilots waiting for the staff.  Not that
    we didn't start off too slow and keep some people waiting, but the
    format lends itself to a no-wait schedule.

    As for the HLG event (everybody up for five tosses in a ten minute
    window --- total up-time wins), I expected two flight groups because 
    of likely frequency conflicts and because of an expected shortage of
    people to do the timing.  I had three.  There were seven pilots in it,
    and three were on one channel.  A ten minute window was about right;
    total times were around 2:nn, and they had half their time to work on
    thermal hunting and strategy.  It could be run in five minutes; Kay and
    Reith were in it and should give their viewpoint.  I was overhead.
    This event has audience appeal; it would really hum with more pilots.

    I had said in the announcement that we would award prizes to both
    expert and sportsman.  That was a mistake; I couldn't afford it.  I
    made it worse by deciding [at the contest] to award second prizes.  
    These two decisions made the difference between break-even and a loss.

    Regarding the staff, the scorekeeper has a lousy job; I didn't get to
    watch much flying, but he didn't get to watch *any*.  He was bent over
    his papers all day, hard at work.  The impound manager by contrast,
    watched all day although he couldn't wander around much.

    Assigning the flight order turned out to be a bear --- much more
    difficult than I had expected.  John Nilsson had warned me, but I still
    screwed up.  Now I understand why there is a computer program for this
    task.

    Regarding winch line retrieval, a lawn tractor seemed to be better than
    a moped.  Jeff was winch master, so he should comment on this.

    And a final word on the staff of four full-time workers.  All four were 
    without experience; two are new to RC, and one of those had never flown
    a glider.  We were lucky that it came off as well as [I think] it did.

    Alton, the apprentice CD

re Note 853.38 by Jim ZENDIA::REITH re Jim Tyrie's technique

>>  serious about landing points and wanted a count by ones the last 30
>>  seconds. 

    Although I deliberately allowed this at New Boston, this is
    specifically disallowed in the AMA rules.

    Page 91, paragraph "10.2.2.e) The official timer shall not provide a
    countdown during the last ten seconds of the flight (a helper should be
    used)."

    I allowed it because I didn't see a reason for disallowing it as long
    as the timer was watching the plane and not the watch.  Besides, Frank
    Deis makes the point that the count doesn't matter one iota in the last
    twenty seconds or so; Deis would regard the late count as a distraction
    without any benefit, and IMHO Deis makes sense.
    
>>  Shane's ... winched the wings off the Tyrie special 

    Sigh!  The poor kid adored that bird.

    Alton

>>  The countdown is allowed by a third person 

    Yup         But think about what Deis says about the final count.

>>  and a third person is allowed in the landing area? 

    Nope.

    No one is allowed in the landing area except to measure and retrieve.
    I haven't the book with me at the moment, but if you want, I'll dig out
    the reference tonight.

    Alton, apprentice nit-picker

    MAybe the reports topic isn't the best place for this but now I'm more
    confused (I know, shut up and go back to the workshop).
    
    By landing area, I don't mean inside the 25' circle. I mean standing
    out in the locale with the official timer and pilot. I realize nobody
    is supposed to be in the "circle" when someone is landing.
    
    I assume that assistance by something like the 347 countdown timer is
    allowed since it is unofficial and separate from the official timer.
    
    What is the proper interaction between the pilot and timer? Does the
    pilot have to ask the timer at each point he wants to know the current
    elapsed? (I'd be interested in the exact text of this part, I think)
    
    Yeah, the nits are where the contest stops being fun. I just don't want
    to do anything that might cause an argument/disqualification. 

    It's interesting to note that at the Nats last year, the
    no-verbal-countdown rule was universally ignored, it wasn't evened
    mentioned, and I didn't know such a thing existed until Al mentioned
    it.
    Needless to say, I've never encountered it at any other contest.
    
    I'll agree that counting below 15 seconds is a waste of effort.
    Counting silently to yourself may be useful to get a feel for the
    time-speed-distance relationship, but I never think to do that either.
    
    Terry

>    It's interesting to note that at the Nats last year, the
>    no-verbal-countdown rule was universally ignored, it wasn't evened
>    mentioned, and I didn't know such a thing existed until Al mentioned
>    it.
>    Needless to say, I've never encountered it at any other contest.

I had never heard of it either.  But it sounds as though the goal is not
to restrict the pilot from hearing the count down but rather to make
sure timer is watching the plane and not the watch.  So if in fact
they give you the countdown they are still within the spirit of the law
as long as they also stop the watch correctly.  This probably made more
since with the old mechanical stop watches.
    
>    I'll agree that counting below 15 seconds is a waste of effort.

I disagree.  Take for instance the Biddeford contest where if you go 
over by one second you zero your flight score.  Then as you make your
approach hearing the count down you can make sure you drop the nose
on the turf even though you may be well short and only 2 or 3 seconds
away from a good landing.

Speaking of rules.
What is projected wing span?  Is that as though you ironed out
your dihedral?  What about Tiplets?  What about bi-planes?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    I'll agree that a sub-15 sec. count is a good idea with Biddeford
    rules, but I've never encountered those rules either.
    
    Projected wingspan is the area that the wing shadow would cover
    on a suface if a light were shined on it from above.
    Obviously dihedral would affect this, and multiple wings if they
    were staggered fore/aft.
    
    Terry

    In response to Jim Reith's questions about the AMA glider rules:

>>  [Standing in the] landing area, I don't mean inside the 25' circle. 

    As far as I can see, there are no rules/restrictions regarding the area
    outside the target zone.  According to the AMA rules it would seem that 
    you could land an inch or twenty miles outside the circle and have
    a hundred advisors helping.  

    It is evidently either ignored (or left to the CD) or allowed when the
    pilot lands in the trees or three miles away.  The only applicable rule 
    I could find implied that the flight time counts; the rule states the
    action to take when the plane goes out of sight.
    
>>  I assume that ..... 347 countdown timer is allowed 

    Again, if I read the rules correctly, you can have a workstation and a
    radar to help you.  You cannot have an autopilot (defined in the rules).
    
>>  What is the proper interaction between the pilot and timer? 
>>  (I'd be interested in the exact text of this part, I think)

    "10.2.2.e)  The official timer shall not provide a countdown during the
    last 10 seconds of the flight (a helper should be used).  The manner of
    countdown should be established prior to takeoff by the contestant."

    You could have him sing BONG BONG ala Big Ben if you really wanted.

    Alton

>>> Note that several did not declare their EXPERT/SPORTSMAN status as
>>> required.  Some others (e.g. Tyrie) seemed less than serious about it.
    
    Al, I think you will have to establish an objective criteria for Expert
    vs. Sportsman. In ESL sanctioned contests, the Expert label is bestowed
    on anyone who has accumulated a certain number of points in ESL
    contests. So it isn't just an arbitrary category you pick at
    registration.
    
    You could specify that Expert class is reserved for ESL experts, or
    maybe just get rid of the distinction entirely. I don't mind competing
    directly against the experts because ultimately I compare my
    performance against them anyway.
    

re comment by Dave QUIVER::WALTER  on   Expert vs Sportsman

>>    maybe just get rid of the distinction entirely. 

    I now agree absolutely.  This was my last non-ESL contest with an
    Expert/Sportsman distinction.  It complicates the contest and doubles
    the problem of prizes.

    It even complicates the situation of many pilots who may be expert [in
    fact, if not in the ESL listings] in one class and not in another. 

    The sole benefit seems to be to give the beginners a better chance at
    recognition for good performances.

    Alton, who will move this discussion to the contest rules topic