Conference 7.286::home_work

    ...it all depends.
    
    Wells are anywhere from $6.00/ft to $10/ft., probably.  A deep-well
    pump (i.e. anything over about 25 feet) plus connecting it plus
    a water tank will probably run about $800-$1000.  If you can get
    by with a shallow well and find a good deal on a second-hand pump 
    and storage tank, you might get in under $200, I'm not sure.  That
    would be real lucky - I'd guess at least $500, after all the details
    are taken care of.
    
    Septic system?  Assuming First, that the land is suitable for a
    septic system (was it tested?), probably $1500-$2000.  Rough guess.
    
    Steve
    

    Make sure you check the local codes: most towns in the north have
    passed new laws requiring a licened engineer to design the septic
    system. The well should be up hill and 500' from the septic tank.
    The town hall can put in touch with the right people.
    Go slowly and get several estimates from local contractors, they
    are usually cheaper if you don't rush them. 
    Let us know the out come and good luck.   

 PS:::::   Make sure when you talk with the town hall that
           trailers are allowed on your property.
           

Try dir /key=wells.  There are a couple of other notes on wells in here.

.1 sounds very low on the estimates.  You can only put in a dug well if there 
is enough soil over the ledge - something that isn't likely in NH.  (It does 
happen - we have a dug well).  If you have to drill, then it's pot luck.  You 
may hit water at 200 ft ($1500), if you're real lucky maybe shallower, but very 
possibly deeper.  

Septic system is also likely to cost more than that, especially if you need any 
fill.  

Paul

  We have 2 working parents and one 4-year old (total of 3 people)in
  our household. Our house will be 3 years old in September. We
  live in Acton.
  
  QUESTION: How often should I have our septic system pumped? It
  has not yet been done and I am thinking about doing it. Based
  on a new system, and our family size, how does this affect the
  frequency?
  
  I want to do the right thing but, I don't want to spend money
  today if I really don't have to.
  

    You will probably get various answers to your questions depending
    on who you talk to.  In general, if you take good care of your
    septic system, you will never have to pump it out.  By good care,
    I mean using RID-X (septic bacteria), minimizing water use and
    minimizing the amount of solid waste you send into your system.
    
    Biodegradable materials will disappear by bacterial action.  However
    if you have a disposal and send down coffee grinds, paper towels,
    grease and oil, the amount of solid will build up and you will have
    to pump it out.  Grease and oil clog the holes of the leaching pits
    or pipes.  Also if you put things into your system that prevents
    bacterial action, such as chlorine, disinfectants, paint thinner
    or insecticides then the amount of solids will increase.
    
    Most septic companies will recommend pumping every 2-3 years, but
    that is not really necessary given a well cared for system.
    
    -al

    
    I have a few questons on this topic also:
    First, I know about the "no-no's" such as no paint thinner or petroleum
    products down the drain, use white toiler paper only, we do not
    have a disposal, and do not dump things into the system that are
    generally not good for the environment.  But one thing we do do,
    and have heard various opinions on is we do dump our laundry wastewater
    into the system.  Now the detergents we use all claim to be
    biodegradeable, and we do not use bleach, and there are only two
    of us in a system designed for a three bedroom house.  Occassionally
    I dump either RID-X or yeast into the toilet.  Question is, many
    people in the area dump their washwater into a drywell.  Should
    I consider doing the same?

    I worked for a company that installed and pumped septic system while
    in school, and would like to throw in my 2 cents worth.
    
    The purpose of a septic tank is to hold the solid waste while draining
    off the liquid to a leach field or pit. This means that septic systems
    have to be pumped out regularly, I don't care how good you take
    care of it. We reccommended not using chemicals such as RID-X because
    this would break down the solid and it would drain off with the
    liquids. If this happens long enough, the leach field/pit would
    eventually become plugged. Then your only choice is to use acid
    to unplug th field/pit.
    
    As far as garbage disposals and water from the dishwasher or washing
    machine, these will all contribute to the wear and tear of the system.
    If your washing machine emptys into the system, use liquid soap.
    Powder soap may clog the pipes. If you have a garbage disposal your
    system should be pumped out more often.
    
    For a family of three I would say have it pumped out every 3 or
    4 years. Just remember that having it pumped out at your convience
    and during the summer is alot easier and cheaper than devoloping
    problems during the winter when it may take a backhoe to dig thru
    the frozen ground. When the system is pumped, a good company will
    also check to may sure your pipes arenot clogged by flushing a ball
    of toliet paper down and watching for it to come out in the tank.
    
    A little preventive maintenance goes along way.
    
Mark

    
    
    
    How much (approximately) does it cost to have a septic system pumped??
    My husband and I have bought a house that's 25 years old and uses
    a septic tank. I'm sure having it pumped is something we should
    look into having done since we don't know when (or if) it was done.
    Luckily our washing machine is hooked up to empty in a dry-well
    and we don't have a dishwasher.
    
    Patty

    I JUST HAD MINE DONE FOR $65, BUT I DUG UP THE OPENING MYSELF,
    OTHERWISE THEY WOULD HAVE CHARGED MORE.
    
    

    Like I said, depends who you talk to...
    
    I am selling my house and the buyer's bank requires a certificate
    of septic system (or whatever).  A licensed inspector was hired
    to check it out.  After digging up the opening, he ran 3 faucets
    in the house for about 30-40 minutes (or 200 gallons).  His final
    judgement was that everything was fine and that the system should
    not be pumped even though it has never been pumped in 8 years.
    He said if the system is designed correctly and it is correctly
    cared for then a system should never have to be pumped.  In any
    case if you are going to pump, the cost is usually based upon
    several factors:
    
    	Locating & digging: usually first foot free, every other foot
    				they dig is about $10.  Septic system
    				covers are anywhere from 6" to 8' deep.
    	Pumping: anywhere from $50-$100 for the first 1000 gallons,
    		 extra per each 100 gallons
    	Dumping: putting the stuff "somewhere else"
    	Certificate: $45
    
    -al

    
    	re BIODEGRADEABLE
    
    	Many products claim to be biodegradeable, however biodegradeable
    	is a relative term.  Practically everything will EVENTUALLY
    	biologically break down, even chlorine compounds.  It may take
    	centuries, but it will happen.  Many powdered laundry soaps
    	claim to be biodegradeable.  As mentioned previously the grit
    	in the powder will clog pipes, but more dangerous to your septic
    	system is the amount of time that the grit takes to really break
    	down.  I have spoken to several septic specialists, both installers
    	and pumpers, and they all agree that laundry powder residue
    	is one of the biggest contributors to the breakdown of a septic
    	system's effectiveness.
    
    	Joe O.

    I have mine pumped annually.  My family is 5 adults (close  enough  ;-) 
    ),  1  of  which  is away at school during the year, but home  for  the 
    summer, holidays, breaks, and  often  weekends.   We have a dishwasher, 
    disposal, & washing machine all dumping into the system, as well as the 
    usual showers & toilets.  For  $65 yearly, it's worth it.  The house is 
    about 8 - 10 years old now.   I generally have it done in mid-fall, the 
    rates seem lower then.

    I recently replaced our gas hot water tank. The reason for the failure
    says the installer is that the tank had been rusting for years (its
    was the original tank for the 13 year old house). The layers of
    rust particles had been plugging the pin holes as indicated by the
    traces of rust on the floor near drain. Like an entheusatic new
    home owner (we moved in in May), I read all the manuals that was
    attached to the water tank and followed the instructions: BEWARE!!!
    If the tank works, don't disturb it! The instruction says to flush
    it monthly; I did and the flushing dislodged some of the rust and
    the pinholes now becomes a gusher!
    
    The installer says that a 5 year warranty tank has a life from 8
    to 15 years. If the flushing is done on a quarterly basis, the life
    of the tank can be extended. If it has never been done, leave it
    alone; it will do more harm than good.
    
    My research found that there are tanks that are guaranteed for five
    to ten years. There are a few 8 year warrantied tanks availiable.
    My Miser 8 from Sears was on sale and was in the mid range price.
    
    /cal hoe

    Your lucky in a way. It could have let loose when you were away
    and weren't concerned with its operation and maintenance.

    Believe me, it is no fun, coming home and hearing the carpet in
    the basement go squish, squish.  Our water heater died shortly after
    we moved into our house.  Fortunately, it was still under warranty
    so Penny's replaced it free.  I had to pick up the new one and install
    it myself, but that's pretty easy.  (It only took me a day and teflon
    tape is wonderful stuff.)
    
                                        August G. Reinig

I'm adding an addition to my house.  After I submitted plans to the
building inspector he asked me what I was using the rooms for and I told
him there would be a dining room and a bedroom.  He said that since I was
adding a bedroom, I had to get approval from the health department stating
that my septic system is large enough to handle this third bedroom in my
house.

Is it true that adding bedrooms make you use the bathroom more?  
I haven't found this to be true in the past.  

    When I lived in a simple 2-room apartment, I hardly had to use the
    bathroom at all.  About three years ago, I started living in my
    3-bedroom cape alone, and I found that I had to convert one of my
    spare bedrooms to a computer room just so I could sleep at night.
    Fortunately, I had spare bathroom downstairs, so I didn't suffer
    any undue embarrassment, but who knows?  
    
    You'll notice that many 4-bedroom homes have individual baths for
    some of the bedrooms.  I really don't understand the phenomenon
    at all.... somehow the extra bedroom serves as a diuretic.  So if
    I were adding a bedroom in my addition, I wouldn't take any chances.
    
    I hope this helps...
    
    I.P. Nightly

   If you check the canine notesfile, you'll get better evidence
    of this.  Dogs kept in a small kennel-box do not 
    evacuate during the night, except in extreme instances.  But
    even the best-house-trained fdogs, put in a house big enough,
    eventually find *someplace* where you wished you'd thought to
    install a bathroom.
            
    So your Health department is right! You DO need a bigger 
    septic tank to accomodate your extra bedroom.
    

    By adding another bedroom you are increasing the number of people
    that could comfortably live in the house. Even if you are planning
    on living there alone with your two cats for the next 40 years,
    the town wants to ensure that your septic system can handle
    the potential load of the house filled to it's new capacity
    (just in case you sell the house for example).
    
    So, most communities will expect some kind of verification that
    the septic system can handle proposed additions to your house.
    If your septic system isn't up to handling the third bedroom,
    the town may require you to upgrade your septic before you
    can add the extra bedroom.
    
    bd

If you'd have told him it was a TV room or a guest room, you'd be fine, but 
you've put your foot in it now.  If your house was built at all recently, then 
the septic system should be able to handle it no problem - they are way 
overdesigned.  Although I'm not sure if the Health Department will agree with 
you.

Good luck.

Paul

Yep, as I recall, they figure two people per bedroom, so if you have a four
bedroom house they figure it's good for 8 people.  It's probably never going
to be a problem but the board of health has to use this number.

--ed.

(by the way, I was told by a neighbor that several years ago, a family of
eighteen lived in my house!  That's why they have these rules.)

    RE:-1
    
    >(by the way, I was told by a neighbor that several years ago, a family of
    >eighteen lived in my house!  That's why they have these rules.)
    
    But Ed, that is only one person/bedroom in your house!

I was thinking of converting a bedroom to a den and adding another bedroom.
The building inspector told me that I was therefore adding another bedroom
and needed an expanded septic system.  However, if I ripped the closet out
of the den, it would indeed no longer be a bedroom and I could claim that
the number of bedrooms hadn't changed.

Sounds like your first step is to find out what your septic system's capacity
is and you MAY be ok.  If not, you might consider changing your plans to add
another room that ISN'T a bedroom.  What you then do with the room after it's
added is your business.

-mark

    The builder of my house did some strang things...like, the drain
    pipe (no sink) for the washing machine is six (6) feet high.
    
    My concern is around the draining of washer water - the six foot
    height is not an issue; however, our house has a septic system.
    Now, being a good ole down home city type, I am completely at sea
    with septic systems.
    
    Major concern - will the lint normally coming out of washer water
    have any long term impact on the septic system ?  Clogging, etc.?
    In trying to filter the water, I am experiencing backwash all over
    the basement floor.  Can anyone recommend a good method to filter
    the water; we're currently using old nylons (that will end in the
    next day or two - insufficient throughput, causing the backwash).
    
    Dwight
    

  Are you sure that grey water from the washing machine goes to the septic
  tank?  It shouldn't  -- normally there is a separate drain.  The overflow
  from the septic system and the washing machine water should both go to
  a leachfield or dry well but washing machine water should not go through
  the septic system.  

  If there is a separate drain, you could try running a plumber's snake
  down through it.  You haven't by any chance taped the washing machine
  outlet and the drain together, have you?  That can case problems as 
  the outlet is supposed to sit loosely in the drain so that it can act
  as its own vent.

  JP
    

    
    re: .1
    
    WHile it's certainly better for laundry drains to bypass the septic
    system, it is not at all common practice for builders to construct
    homes that way.

    I think most washing machine outlets do not bypass the septic tank.
    

    Most states require that everything drain into the septic tank at
    the time of construction approval. On the other hand, after everyone
    leaves and your now living in the house many people have repiped
    the graywater into a separate drywell thus taking some of the load
    off of the leach field. My recommendation is that you install a
    set/laundry tub next to your washer and discharge the washer into
    the set tub. This should solve your backwash problem. Of course
    this can only be accomplished it you can know drain your set tub
    into something such as any cellar drains, foundation perimeter drains,
    etc., If your house doesn't have a drain access lower than thke
    bottom of the set tub I'd suggest you install a drywell or even
    just discharge the washer out into some low spot in your back yard.
    However you discharge the water from your washer, you should get
    it out of your septic tank. A load of wash will discharge between
    50 to 65 gallons of water, which when dumped into your septic tank
    causes all kinds of problems later on in the future.
    

    
    
    Since my leach field was being abused by my wife with the laundry
    I just installed what they call a "washer ring" just for the grey
    water.  It's a cement ring with holes around it, dimension are 
    about 4 1/2 ft high and about the same in diameter.  I had the hole
    large enough for this ring along with a load of crush rock.  
    From what I understand this may illegal in some state. 
    This outlet going to the leach field should be only 2 1/2
    so that nobody connect a toilet to it (in case off new owner).
    The cost for this ring was $75.00 and so far it prove worthwhile
    and is a relief to the septic system.
    
    

This could be another note, but since it's related...

How often should one get a septic system pumped?  I was told every 5 
years and have done so.  All my gray water goes into it and I have never 
had a hint of a problem (I see that bolt of lightening stike even as I 
type).

I know there are a lot of people who feel that if a septic system is 
functioning properly (possible means no gray water) that it NEVER needs
to be pumped.

I've also wondered about garbage disposals.  I was told I could never 
have one.  A neighbor of mine has one and simply gets their system 
pumped every few years.  On the other hand another neighbor put one in 
and his leach field died (unclear if it's related).

SO...  I'm not sure if this answers anything or not, and I know there 
are lots of opinions about septic system mainenance, so should we put 
them in here or a separate not?

-mark

    
    re .6 - see also note 270.*, and keyword SEWAGE

     Septic systems by definition have to pumped every so often. In
    a septic system there is a tank for solids (where they are supposed
    to stay) and a leaching field for liquids. Though bacteria does
    slowly break down the solids, eventually the tank will become full
    and will need to be pumped. How often that will be depends on how
    much goes into the system, how large the system is, and what goes into
     it (ANY kind of chemical is tough on the bacteria). The tank has
    an inlet from the house that is near the top, and an outlet that
    is just slightly below the inlet. Thus if you look into the tank
    it will always appear almost full. But it is only the solids that
    really matter to the tank. If the tank is allowed to fill up with
    solids, they will start going out into the leaching field. If this
    happens, the leaching field will get plugged up and the system will
    not be able to drain off the liquids.
      In the last house that I owned we had a disposall and a septic
    system. We had the system pumped every 4 years and never had a problem
    with the system backing up. This was for a family of 4 with the
    washing machine connected to a seperate system. The house I'm in
    now also has a disposall and a septic system. I haven't had and
    don't expect to have any problem. The only thing that has to be
    done is not to abuse the system by putting everything down the
    disposall. Most of our garbage goes into the trash, only small amounts
    from dishes ect. goes into the dispoall.
    
    					Kenny

    I have a question on septic systems and odors!
    
    BACKGROUND
    
    Our house is 2 years old, with a septic tank and field. There are
    two adults in the house, with the usual (??) amount of waste. The
    clothes washer does empty into the septic system.
    
    QUESTION
    
    Is it normal for the odors from the stand pipe (on roof) to be very
    noticeable on the ground below?
    
    I first noticed the odor when I built the porch roof -- but I was
    standing within 4 feet of the stand pipe so I figured it was normal.
    Then I began to notice that I could occasionally smell it while
    sitting on the deck if the wind was blowing the wrong way.  This
    morning I noticed that it was very strong as I left the house.
    
    Any thoughts?  Does this mean that the tank is full, or that the
    system is not operating correctly?
    
    Thanks
    VCS
     
    
    

    I too have experienced the same type of odor from the septic systems
    that I had on my old house as well as my new one. The new system
    is only 4 months old so I doubt that it could be filled up. I tend
    to believe that some odor (when the wind is right) would be considered
    normal, but I'm by no means an expert on the subject.
    

    That's just what the vent pipe is for - to release the gas produced
    by the decomposing waste, someplace other than in your house. Everyone
    gets a whiff now and then, when the wind is right (or wrong).
    
    On cold, still mornings, stratification occurs in the air within
    tens of feet off the ground. You can sometimes see these local
    inversions as they concentrate chimney smoke near the ground instead
    of letting it float away. It wouldn't be a big surprise if the same
    thing was happening with the sewer gas.

    Van,
    
    Your problem is not uncommon at all;  the same air drafts that cause
    wood smoke to fill the air around the house do likewise to the stack.
    I have 2 suggestions and recommend the easier one first.
    
    1)  Drill a 1/4 inch whole in the stack (vent pipe) somewhere within
        4 or 5 inches of the base.  This causes the stack to act somewhat
        like an organ pipe and creates a stronger upward blast of sewer
        gas.  (Think of it as a flute if you like.)
    
    2)  Extend the stack by adding another few feet to it.  This can
        be accomplished by either coupling another piece to the pipe
        or trimming the pipe back and adding one, new longer piece.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Steve

Well, I feel better after reading this note. My system is brand new (less than 
half a year). Everything was fine until we got two days' worth of monsoon about 
a month ago, and then I started noticing a smell when the weather got cold 
again. So add me to the list.

My imagination got going and I came up with these possible causes:

First, since my system is a shallow system (leach bed is about a foot below the 
surface), is it possible that the monsoon dropped anough water on the 
previously-frozen ground to fill the system? If the ground is frozen, that much 
water can't go down, can it? Was the leach bed leaching the rainwater into the 
septic tank instead of leaching the septic-tank output into the ground?

Second, my house is just barely high enough off the ground for me to get an 
adequate pitch on the feed line to the septic tank. If rainwater has overloaded 
the system, then what's gonna back up first? The solids, right? If those solids 
back up to the stack and plug it, that could cause a smell, couldn't it?

Third, the house is not on a slab... it's on 4-foot posts. The feed line to the 
tank lies on the ground under the house (there's a skirt under the house so it 
doesn't get all that cold under there). Someone suggested to me that a frost 
heave may have occurred and disturbed one of the pipe joints or actually 
cracked a pipe, causing raw sewage to get dumped onto the ground below the 
house. I find this to be even more of a long shot than the other two.

Some other pertinent info: the main source of the smell comes from the BASE of 
the toilet, i.e. around the perimeter. I assume since the toilet is not leaking 
onto the bathroom floor that the wax seal is intact. I do get a significant 
odor outside, however, as you other folks have already mentioned; I just don't 
know if it's coming from the stack. Also, the system has an easy time of it; 
it's a 1K gallon tank with a 10' x 40' bed, and it's just me at the house. I do 
maybe two loads of laundry a week with Liquid detergent and Borateem thoroughly 
dissolved in HOT water, I have no garbage disposal, and I throw nothing down 
any of the sinks. I also do the yeast trick at the start of every month. And 
the system is always fast, i.e. I've never had a "slow drain".

Think the cold weather has gotten to the system?


							- craig

    Is it possible....
    
       1. your leach field is not level and is "bubbling" up in a 
          shallow area.
    
       2. Do you have a normally high water table in your area.
    
     
    Canuck

    
   re .4
    
    Sewer gas odors are OK outside the house - inside they are totally
    unacceptable!
    
    From your statement that "the main source of the smell comes from
    the BASE of the toilet", I infer that you are getting a sewer gas
    odor inside the house - do something about it immediately. The wax
    gasket does not have to be particularly well sealed to prevent water
    leakage, but an improper seal would let sewer gas back into the
    bathroom. I would also check for proper sealing of all the joints
    on the waste pipe under the toilet (by the way, don't smoke while
    you're doing this).
    
    As far as the septic system is concerned, I can't imagine an acceptable
    design that puts the leach field at or above the frost level, which
    would cause leaching problems in the middle of the winter. Also,
    are you absolutely sure that the main waste pipe is lying on the
    ground? (The skirt doesn't do much to prevent freeze-ups, unless
    you're pumping heat under the house.)

The water table at my place is 4'. The designer of the system did his 
percolation test, checked all the applicable laws, and came up with what I've 
got now. The problem with my particular location is that I'm right across the 
street from Massabesic Lake, the Manchester water reservoir. I think the idea 
was to keep the leach bed high enough off the aquifer below it so that some 
filtration would occur between the leach bed and what eventually winds up in 
the lake.

The point about not designing a leach bed that would freeze is well-taken, 
however, what about the folks who are forced to install a raised bed with a 
pump in a buried substation? Those installations are not uncommon. Wouldn't 
those raised beds be just as likely to freeze, if not more so, than mine?

I just can't believe that these shallow systems stop working in winter, yet I 
can't surmise why they WOULDN'T stop working.

This may all be noise if my problem is the wax seal. I had no idea you could 
have a gas problem without a water problem. I appreciate that tip, and I'm 
going to pursue it.

In the meantime, I'm going to ask the engineer and the installer of my system 
what their thoughts are on leach-bed freezing. Should be interesting...

							Thanks,

							- craig

    The standard leach bed is built by digging down two feet, putting
    in 6 inches of crushed stone, laying in 4 inch perforated pipe,covering
    with 6 more inches of crushed stone, then straw or untreated building
    paper, then one foot of dirt/topsoil.  This puts it well above the
    normal frost line in New England.  The reason it doesn't freeze
    is that the gasses given off in the septic tank are warm, and will
    warm the entire system.  The bottom of the system must be at least
    4 feet above the highest ground water height. This means that if
    the ground water is less than six feet down you will have to raise
    the system up higher. (This is for New Hampshire, I believe that
    the regulations for Mass. are similar)
      I am living in a mobile home next to the house I am building,
    and the pipe from the mobile home to the septic tank is lying on
    top of the ground, and has never frozen (this is our third winter
    with this set-up).
      So, none of your septic system should ever freeze.  Standing water,
    on the other hand, can saturate your leach field, causing it to
    back up somewhat.  This, however, should still not increase any
    odor in a properly functioning system, unless it remains saturated
    (with water above ground level) for a period of time.
      Your problem does, indeed, sound like the wax ring under the toilet
    is not sealing.  If you hold a funnel above a jar and pour water
    through it, all the water will go into the jar, and the air in the
    jar will leak out between the top of the jar and the bottom of the
    funnel.  Your toilet probably won't leak water even with no wax
    seal, but the sewer gasses will sure leak out.

    Jim D.

    How deep is the frost line in northern Mass./southern N.H.?

I have to take exception with .-2's comment about septic systems never 
freezeing.  My neigbor has his waste pipe go through the garage on its 
way to the tank.  A couple of years ago the pipe froze and he was up the 
creek (and you know which one I mean).

The plumber told him he'd never seen a waste pipe go through an unheated
garage before and recommended that the pipe be wrapped in that heating 
tape (forget what it's called).

This is in Mass.  I can't recall how cold it got and I'm sure in most 
cases that don't freeze, but all it takes is that toilet overflowing 
when you least expect it.

-mark

Rule of thumb in this area is that frost line is down about 4 feet.  Of course 
the frost will only go down that deep once in a blue moon, but that's all it 
takes.

Paul

    My line from the house to the Septic Tank is under 18" of gravel.
    
    It hasen't frozen yet, during the last 11 years. Even the year the
    frost went down 5', not problem. I'm sure about the five foot frost,
    as a neighbor of mine and I had to thaw his tubing from his well
    to the house.
    
    dana

    	There is not normally  a problem with the pipe freezing because
    waste water runs quickly through it to the septic tank. However,
    if the tank is backing up and water starts to stand in the pipe
    it will freeze and break the pipe. The moral is to keep the septic
    tank from overflowing.
    	From experience if it break this time of year you can wait until
    thaw ( early April ) or pay $100 an hour for equipment to break
    through the frozen like concrete ground.
    					jak
    

From this Sunday's Boston Globe:

Q:	Our plumbing vent on the roof freezes shut in very cold winter
	weather and we smell a septic odor in the house. What's the solution?

A:	The permanent solution is to replace the vent, which is too small
	in diameter, with a 3-inch or 4-inch pipe. Unfortunately, that
	involves roof work to replace the flashing. Since the closure is
	caused by condensation freezing and gradually closing the vent, you
	can experiment by insulating the vent in the attic to keep the moist
	air warmer longer.

    	I directed a Youth camp for a couple years and one year we had
    a problem with the leach bed being over full.  [must have been that
    good ol' camp food! ;-)]  But there was a remarkable increase in
    infected wounds that week!  Had a blister on my hand myself that
    just got real infected!  
    
    	So.. if'n you ken *smell* it, there are probably airborne microbes
    around with the fumes, and you'd tend to get unhealthy!
    
    	Not to alarm anyone.  Our problem that year was flagrant! [Fragrant?]
    But it's a good motivation to fix the problem!
    
    							Don Arey

    re .14, I wonder if some heattape around the vent pipe just below
    (or above, whichever is accessible) the exit would suffice as a
    fix, at least temporarily until weather more suitable for roof work?

    We're in the process of buying a house with a private sewer system
    (septic, I think).  Being from the west where such things don't exist, 
    I've got a few questions.  First, what should I look out for to
    make sure that this sewer system is OK?  Are there any inherent
    difficulties in hooking up a dishwasher and garbage disposer to
    such a system?  Anything else that I should be aware of?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

    Probably the most important thing to remember about a septic
    system is that what you pump into it has to go somewhere.  In
    general, there is a continuious process of "digestion" within
    the septic tank - or turning solid waste into liquid waste.  This
    liquid waste is then passed out of the septic tank into a leach
    field, where it is absorbed into the ground over a large square-foot
    area.  You'll hear people saying to put yeast into your toilet once
    a month or so - this is to enhance the digestion process in the
    tank, to insure it doesn't get blocked or full or anything like
    that.  The more water you pump into the system, the more water that
    will be spread into the leach field - a properly installed leach
    field should cause you no problems with normal household use, which
    includes a washer and a dishwasher.
    
    One thing to worry about with a garbage disposal and a septic system
    is that what goes into it could screw up the above mentioned septic
    process.  some folks have been known to put EVERYTHING down the
    disposal, and then have septic trouble later.  PUting a lot of greasy
    things down the disposal isn't too good for it, as is also true
    of bones, etc - they just settle to the bottom of the tank.  As
    long as you're only putting limited and digestable things down
    the disposal, you shouldn't have much trouble.
    
    andy
    

    Somewhere in here is a lovely description of exactly how septic
    systems work (I remember, because I accidentally destroyed this
    conference and the note was graciously re-entered by the author).
    
    Dishwashers should pose no problem (basically it's just more water),
    but I'd be hesitant to add a garbage disposal.  It's the solids
    that really cause you problems.
    
    -joet

    Try DIRECTORY/KEY=SEWAGE for other pertintnt notes.
    
    More septic system no-no's:
    
    	o  no harsh chemicals (kill bacteria)
    
    	o  no dyed paper products (ie, white toilet paper only)

    I have been told that in the town I live in that it is against
    code to have a garbage disposal if you have a septic tank.  When
    we bought the house two years ago we needed a plumber to do some
    repairs and requested that he install a disposal at the same time.
    He would not install the disposal because it was against code.
                                                             
    Of course it is highly unlikely the inspector would find.
    
    This is Ashland, MA.  (I've never called the inspector to verify
    this so it all second hand)

    I too have a septic... Does anyone know what the impact a water
    softener has on it's operation??? The softener has a 'regenerating'
    cycle that periodically renews the operation of the softener.
    Softeners use SALT to do this. Does this salt harm the tank
    operation??? Should I have any problems?
    
    M

I don't know about softener but I do know that certian laundry 
detergents don't do well in septic systems. I know of more
than one person who had problems with the tank overflowing due
to solid buildup only to have the problem go away by switching
laudry soap. If memory dosnt fail me too much, powder seems to
work better than liquids. Also, people who do thier own
photographic developing at home and pour the used chemical down the
drain have been know to have bad septic problems. 

    I have been running a garbage disposal, washer machine and dish
    washer thru my system for eight years without regard for what goes
    into my system. I have never had a problem and get myself pumped
    out about once every 3 years. As far as garbage disposals go, if
    it is working properly then only small pieces of anything should
    ever go down the drain. The toilet will produce much more solid
    waste than a disposal.

    re .7:
    
    Yes, the more often you think to pump out the septic tank, the more
    forgiving the system will be (except for grease).
    
    And the socially acceptable definition of edibility dictates that a
    much higher percentage of what goes down the toilet is short-term
    biodegradable, than what goes down the garbage disposal.

    If you have it pumped on a regular basis you should have no problem.
    This is important because it's the only way to remove the
    non-digestible solids that build up. Eventually they get into the
    leaching bed and plug it up. I've been told all septic systems should
    be pumped every 2 to 5 years depending on usage. Don't wait until
    it backs up, the damage is done by then and can cost several thousand
    to fix.

    re .7 - a toilet might produce much more solid waste than a garbage
    disposal but since the waste is pre-digested it should be a different
    consistency and thus might have a different effect on the performance
    of the septic system.  
    
    I think the issue with the garbage disposal involves two factors, one
    (already mentioned) is selection of what you put down it - for example,
    I do not put eggshells down ours because our water is fairly alkaline
    and I'm not sure how well the calcium carbonate will dissolve (if it
    didn't, we'd be creating limestone deposits which I'm not sure would
    not be good for the leach field), and bone would probably be similar.
    The other issue would simply be volume of solids, contrary to .7
    I think that toilet waste is largely water while scraps and leftovers
    might not be as much water.  The thing is how the solid volume relates
    to the field size.
    
    Also, I think another discussion in this conference asserted that
    washing machines are not good for leach fields, the lint isn't digested
    very well if at all, and there's a large volume of water involved.
    
    Finally, the recommendation about pouring yeast down the system
    is easy to follow if you get bottle-conditioned beer :-)
    or another alternative is products on the market to supply and
    encourage the desirable bacteria.  I find that using the leftover
    yeast from my homebrewing is more fun though :-) :-) :-)
    

    re: water softeners vs. septic systems
    
    I have a brochure from the "Water Quality Association," or something
    like that, that says that the amount of salt associated with
    regenerating softeners does slow down the bacteria for a short while,
    but it recovers nicely.  They are an association for water conditioning
    equipment dealers, so I'm sure they're a little biased.
    
    
    I've been using a softener for about 1 1/2 years, and a recent check
    of my septic tank (required for a refinancing) indicated that it
    looked fine.
    
    __Rich

    Grease is a no-no; also colored toilet paper.  Detergents aren't
    great either, but probably ok in home quantities.  Watch out for
    chemicals (cleaners, etc.).  Washing machines can be a problem if
    the amount of water exceeds the capacity of the leach field (the
    water comes in faster than it can drain out) but if you have a
    properly-designed system you'll be okay.  Better to put the drainwater
    from the washing machine into a separate dry well, but hardly anybody
    does it.
    Get the tank pumped every few years.

    What type of problem does colored paper cause versus white paper?
    
    Also, I always thought that liquid detergent was better for your
    septic tank than powder. Is that true or have I been using the
    wrong soap?
               
    
    					steve

    Colored paper doesn't break up and decompose very well, according
    to reports.  Apparently the dyes act as a preservative or something.
    
    Oh yeah - so-called "flushable" tampons aren't a good idea either.    

    Lest all this doom and gloom deter you from buying a house with
    a septic system - don't let it frighten you off.  In general they
    are quite trouble-free unless you abuse them severely.

    Someone said pumping will take care of all of these problems, except
    for grease. Anyone know what grease will do to a septic system,
    and how to get rid of that "greasey buildup", if it does occur?
    	Mez

    Basically, Grease sits at the top of the tank all of the time,
    and when it flows into the leach field, it doesn't absorb into
    the ground under the leach field - it literally coats the ground
    and can prevent absorption over a long period of time.  If you've
    got a lot of grease in your tank, and you have it pumped, a lot
    of the grease sticks to the side of the tank, and when the tank
    fills up again, the grease comes off of the walls of the tank 
    and at the same state it was before.  
    
    In general, I wouldn't worry about it unless someone had been dumping
    an incredible amount down the system.  if the system is working
    ok now, and the tank hasn't been pumped recently, then you can
    fairly safely assume that grease isn't a bad problem - just make
    sure you're careful once you start using the system to keep
    grease in mind.
    
    andy
    

    What can I use to unclog a drain that is safe for my septic system?

    Thanx,
	Rico

   RE: .13
    
    Powdered laundry detergents should be avoided because they usually
    contain 'fillers' which do nothing but add volume and settle to
    the bottom of the septic tanks. There are some powders without these
    fillers and require only a 1/4 cup or so per wash but they aren't
    very popular because the cost per pound is much higher even though
    the cost per wash is about the same. I don't see that there should
    be any problem with liquid detergents.

    
    
    Note:
    
    	Go on vacation when you get pumped out. Those guys should all
    get purple hearts !!
    
    -Steve-
    

    Re. .19. Hmmm, ...funny, when the guy pumped out ours last fall,
    we didn't smell a thing!
    
    -- B

I've had the best luck with those short hoses that attach to a faucet. The 
"business" end gets shoved down the drain, and when you turn the water on, a 
flexible bulb expands against the walls of the drainpipe to hold the hose in 
place while the system water pressure forces the blockage (hopefully) out into 
the holding tank. I'd try this before using an auger, although the latter may 
be a necessity if the first trick doesn't work.

By the way, this method works best if you have decent water pressure. Mine runs 
between 40 and 60 psi, but some older pumps develop only 20 to 40.

You might want to make arrangements for catching overflow from other drains 
(toilet, washer, stack vent if necessary) if you use this method and you've got 
a real bad blockage and you're not sure where it is. You should at least have 
an idea, though, and with a mental layout of the system, you should be able to 
figure out what needs to be plugged up and what doesn't. Don't forget the 
stack!

    
    
    	The grease build up in a septic tank and leach field can be
    	chemically treated with acid based chemicals.  There are 
    	people who are certified by the state to treat systems.  The
    	acid breaks down the grease so it can be absorbed by the ground.
    	The chemical reaction also nutralizes the acid so that it
    	environmentally safe.  This is not something to do yourself.
    
    	Tony Grise

    I got a call from my tenants saying that the septic system is
    overflowing out of the cover.  However, they say their drains
    have not backed up or anything?  Any explanations?
    

    
    
    Sounds like your tank may be full and the outflow to the leech field
    is blocked. Depending on how far away the tank is from the house
    and how much water is used it will take time for the back up to
    actually reach the house.
    
    Get it checked quick.
    

    also, depending on the relative levels of the tank cover and the
    plumbing drains inside the house, I suspect that it might be possible
    for some backup to go unnoticed (if it can run out the tank cover
    quickly enough to avoid backing up high enough to affect the drains).
    
    ditto on the advice in #1 - check it out, quick.  Either call a
    septic service or authorize the tenants to do so, ASAP.

    I am looking for some hints about locating my septic system.  I
    have asked the previous owners but they aren't sure where it is.
    I know where the leech field is and have a couple of clues about
    possible locations but I don't want to start digging up my yard
    for nothing.  At worst it is located under a concrete slab which
    has me a little suspicious since I didn't see any special snow
    melt patterns this winter.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    Thank you,
    Ruth

    This is how I found mine.
    
    Find the location and the direction the waste line leaves the house.
    The septic tank should be in a straight line from this point. Poke
    around with a metal rod until you find the tank.
    
    The tank should not be within 5 feet of the house, 5 feet of the
    drain field, or 50 feet of your well if you have one. The tank
    it will not be smaller than 3' X 5'. So if you find an object
    about that size and at the correct depth (somewhat lower than
    where the drain line exited the house) it is most likely tank
    or a large rock.
    
    The distances depend on the
    	1. code at the time you house was built
        2. if the code was followed
    

    Another way, although it is messy, is to take the cap off of the
    end of the drain pipe where it leaves your cellar. Then you need
    to get a snake and run it out till it hits something which should
    be your tank. Have someone keep banging the snake against the tank
    while you go out and listen for the banging. Using a metal rod in
    the ground with your ear next to it works. This will also give you
    a good idea how far the tank is from the house.
    
    If all else fails, call a company that cleans out septic tanks.
    They should be able to find it using the methods I described.
    
    Good luck
    
    Mark

    
    Or mark the snake, pull it out, measure, and find the exact distance
    from the cleanout entrance to whatever you hit in the tank.
    
    I don't suppose you remember where that first circle of green grass
    appeared when the snow melted...the tank is right below it.

    The home I moved into has no hookups for a washer.  I spoke to a
    friend who told me to be careful if I hook up the washer into
    the septic system (it has a 1000 gallon tank) because the large
    amount of water flowing and the laundry detergent
    may affect the systems operation.  The way I figured it, the 
    soap and extra water would help get rid of the grease and keep
    the system cleaner.  Does anyone have any thoughts on this or
    any alternatives to draining into the septic system.  I heard that
    some people drain the washer into a dug hole in the ground filled
    with gravel (dry well???).  Is that a viable alternative or 
    will it freeze and back-up in the winter months??
    
    Steven

    
    Steve,
      I use the dry well in my house, but that is because the
    washer, which is in the basement, is below the level of the septic
    tank and I would need to pump the waste water up to get it into
    the septic tank. On the other hand I have seen people drain waste
    water into the septic system, detergents and all, without problems.
    There are additives, most notably RID-X(available at SPAGS of course),
    which are supposed to reactivate the bacteria in the septic tank
    to keep it processing waste. If you have a dishwasher, that dumps
    soaps into the septic tank, never mind all the soap from a shower
    or bath tub. What I'm getting at is... I have never seen a septic
    system back up just because of waste soap... more important factors
    would be how well the septic system was engineered, and how well
    the land perks in your area.
    
    /Kevin

I read somewhere that, interms of detergents, soaps (like IVORY SNOW) 
etc, there are definitely some choices you should make about what you 
use if you want to extend the life of you septic system - anyone have 
concrete info on this?

    From what I understand, the best arrangement (the one requiring
    the least amount of preventative maintenance) is to have the
    toilets go to the septic and EVERYTHING else go a separate system,
    like a drywell. Most soaps hurt the bacteria in a septic, bleach
    is a real no-no for septics.
    At the least, I would have the washer go to a seperate system.
    
    John

    Of course, you may wish to verify that a dry-well is legal in your
    town...
    
    Being a big city type, I had the same questions; friends with life-long
    experience in these things basically 'pooh-poohed' such concerns,
    with a few caveates-
    
    	Obviously, don't abuse the system; ie, common sense useage.
    	Use biodegradable soaps, and liguid laundry detergent.

re:.3

I've always heard if at all possible you should avoid washing machine output
from going into a septic system.  I'm in the processing of defining a dry well
for mine.  .4 was correct about not all towns allowing them, but in my case
where I'm building next to a wetland and have gotten the DEQE involved, I was
TOLD to put in a drywell for the foundation water and gutters.  I asked if I
could also dump my washer into it and they said to go for it.

I think the main place dry wells are forbidden is in areas in which houses are
tightly clustered AND have septic systems.

-mark

    
    
    	Speaking from experience, soap and etc, from washing machines
        will cause the septic system to clog up.
    
    	the way a septic system works is natural bacteria break down
    	top layer of crust and settles to the bottom of the tank.
    	soaps prevent this and cause major problems !!!
    
    
    	also you should have your septic tank pumped once every 2 years
    	if you dont have a dry well you should do it every 2 years
    	religously.
    
    	if you dont have a dry well you can get away with 2-4 yrs depending
    	on family size and house activity (host alot of parties etc.)
    
    
    	I have installed and repaired many a septic and dry well system.
    
    
    	I can gaurentee when they go they always go on thanksgiving
    	christmas, new years, and most other holidays but they like
        to go on the coldest snowest holidays.
    

    I agree that soaps can clog up septic systems.  I house I bought
    has a badly abused (poorly maintained?) system and after I had it
    pumped out once, it still backed up.  I uncovered the inlet baffle
    of the septic tank and found powdered soap caked up on the baffle
    and blocking the end of the pipe from the house.
    
    I'm going to have to replace my leach field this year and I intend
    to look into a dry well for the gray water from the washer.  I'd
    say put one in if you can, otherwise use biodegradable soaps (any-
    body suggest good brands?) and treat your system with TLC.
    
    -willie
    

    I'd like to extend this discussion further to include cesspools.
    I live beside a large pond on which the houses are located in close
    proximity. Our house is presumed to have a cesspool, although I
    have had people come out to look for it and they could never find
    it. I want to install a washer, but I am concerned about overloading
    the system, and possibly leakage into the pond. I have been told
    by the neighbors that they think the woman who lived in the house
    before once had a washer, but had it removed for some unknown reason.
    If anyone has any experience with this, I have three questions:
    
    1) Would adding a separate drywell for the washer really help,
    considering that the cesspool is presumably already leeching directly
    into the ground?
    
    2) Would it help to "buffer" the output from the washer by dumping
    it into a tank, and pumping out the tank a little at a time? I thought
    this might give help prevent overloading the cesspool by dumping
    all of the water at once.
    
    3) The pond itself is owned by the state (MA). Are there any laws other
    than town ordinances governing the seepage of waste or pollutants into
    such waters? 

    P.S.: The ground in our area is extremely sandy and absorbant. We
    can hardly grow grass because it dries out as soon as you turn the
    sprinkler off.
    

    There was a discussion of this whole problem in (I think) Better Homes
    and Gardens about four years ago. (Sorry I can't give you an exact
    reference; the Nashua Public Library has it, though.) It included a
    brand-name list of products that were good and bad for septic systems.
    The 'good' list didn't include anything that's available on your
    average supermarket shelf. 
    
    As I recall, their top septic-system-safe soap was Amway. (Unless you
    have really serious political/moral objections to putting your money
    into the company...) 
    
    Do they have such things as County Extension agents here in the
    East?  Back West that's the first place you go for information on
    problems like this. 
    
    --bonnie
 

    Since the subject of drywells for washers has come up I have
    a question.  We have our washer draining into a drywell but
    about three months a go the draining stopped. (Note this was
    when the ground was frozen and the snow on the ground, as 
    predicted in an earlier reply!)
    
    My guess is that the drywell must be cleaned, or that the drain
    pipe into the well is clogged.  Okay to check the pipe I snake the
    line, but how does one clean out a drywell?  How big of a job is
    it, once I determine where the $#@@ the drywell is,  what exactly
    do you do?
    
    Any hints will be appreciated!
    
    Thanks, 
    Kathy

    re. .9  Is that what an extension service is for?  There is a 
    sign on rt. 9 just as you enter Leicester (from Worcester) which
    says county extension.  Never knew what it meant though.
    
    Steve

RE: .7

Soap clogging up septic systems.  How about city sewer systems?  A friend
of mine installed a washer, and it was running fine for 2 months, then
last week, the line started backing up.   The drain works fine, untill
the washer is in operation.  He's looking at the possibilty of having the
line ripped up, $several$ thousand to repair it, as the city (Worcester)
told him it's his fault, not theirs.  2 Routing companies tried and couldn't
clean the line out.

    re: .11 --
    
    It sounds like the thing I was talking about. It's a great source
    for anything useful: 
    
    - directions for how to plant and care for almost anything you can
      plant (ornamental, edible, indoor, outdoor. . . )
    
    - how to raise and care for practically any kind of animal known
      to man, including some things you didn't know could be farmed 
      (ever think about raising rattlesnakes to milk their venom? 
      neither did I.)

    - recipes and other directions for how to prepare and eat almost anything
      you can plant or grow
    
    - plans and procedures for most any kind of home repair, addition,
      remodeling, building, etc. etc. etc.
    
    - advice on things like water tables, toxic chemicals, erosion, drainage,
      planning land development, etc. etc.
    
    Usually the extension service has access to almost everything the
    state's university system has ever done. Since all the schools'
    research is done on public money, it's available to the public free or
    for a nominal charge -- depending on what the university system studies
    and how competent the local exension agent is, they should have or be
    able to get consumer information (lists of local vets, tree surgeons,
    surveyors, etc. etc. etc.), location of soil and water analysis
    services and other kinds of lab work, public health information (how to
    sterilize baby bottles, how to keep rats out of the house, that kind of
    thing), the detailed reports about geological formations or other
    engineering or scientific research, complex studies of genetics
    and breeding information for most any current or potential species
    of livestock.
    
    Whether you want to build a safer hay chute in your barn, upgrade
    your flock of Merinos, or raise ornamental catfish in a backyard
    pond, the extension office should be able to help.
    
    --bonnie, who went to an 'aggie' school 
    

    re: .12
    
    The soap clogging problem I had was because my septic tank has a
    baffle (metal plate, in this case) mounted about a foot beyond the
    end of the pipe comming from the house.  The purpose of the baffle
    is to prevent solids from just floating accross the top of the septic
    tank and out to the leech field (or pit).  The solids will eventually
    sink to the bottom of the tank and decompose.
    
    In regards to a city sewer system, I don't think there is any kind of
    baffle in the line.  I suspect that your friend's pipe is partially
    clogged and he only notices problems when the washer sends out a lot of
    water in a short period of time.  If the pipe has clogged because
    it has collapsed, he will indeed need a new one.
    
    -willie
    
    
    

    re: 10
    
    Most dry wells are basically holes in the ground filled with stone.
    If it fails, stopped leatching then the ground around the well
    has plugged up, usually with lint and soap residue. They are not
    normally designed to be pumped out. The best you can do is to locate
    the dry well, dig a trench out from it and fill it with crushed
    stone. Giving the water a new area to leatch into.
    
    dave

    I have an area, about 8 feet X 5 feet in my yard which refuses to
    grow anything upon it. I assume that it is the ground directly about
    the septic tank (as during the winter, the snow melts there first)
    .
    
    
    Is there any suggestions for planting or landscaping this area to
    cover the bare ground? Ideas have been adding soil, shrubs and mulch,
    railroad-ties, etc...
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Mark

    It all depends on where the offending area is, put how about building
    a deck over the area (maybe 8'x8', or something like that) and
    landscaping around the deck with flowering shubs, perennials, etc.?
    Decks don't have to be attached to the house.  A freestanding deck
    can be a real highlight in the yard.  Also check into the GARDEN
    notes file.

    
>    Is there any suggestions for planting or landscaping this area to
>    cover the bare ground? Ideas have been adding soil, shrubs and mulch,
>    railroad-ties, etc...
    
No real ideas but a caveat-- If it is indeed your septic tank, don't put any-
thing over it that can't be easily moved.  Someday you may want to pump that
sucker out!

						--Mike

    	A small landscaping trick!!! Buy a bail of peat moss(prefer
    Canadian) personal preference only. mix this with the soil in your
    bare spot, rake it out, put in grass seed, over seed this area,
    and roll it down. Then use a soaker hose to wet the area.Fertilize
    as needed. You will need to soak this area in long dry spells, but
    this should do the trick.

    re: -.3  Sounded good to me when I tried that last spring/summer/fall.
    No way! IT grew for a short while,,,, then died out. COuldn't keep
    it going at all.
    
    Anyone else have suggestions?
    
    Mark

    I would suspect the soil is either a bit thin in the at location
    or the tank is leaking methane gas which will kill whatever grows
    above it. Same thing that happens when you get a leak in a gas
    service line. How deep have you dug down in that area?
    I would think you would need at least a foot of dirt over the concrete
    to an adequate amount of soil for the root system and to retain
    enough water.
    My parents had the gas problem in a house they owned and never were
    able to get anything to grow there. They ended up stacking the wood
    pile there. 
    
    good luck, jerry
    
    

    I always thought the grass was greener over the septic tank!  :-)
    
    -- Mike Kilian

    re .5 my neighbor did this too, only he forgot the system was under
    there after a while. one rainy day last year he tried to move the pile.
    but all the weight made his pick truck tires spin. He kept revving
    that truck up until there was this TERRIBLE smell. Seemed he hit
    the drainage bed. It took two trucks to pull him out after he got
    the wood off the truck. And the street smelled "real nice" for 2
    days".

    
    re: .6
    
    I agree!  In the house we just moved from, we had nothing (well,
    almost nothing) for grass in the backyard.  The house was new &
    the lawn never really "took"...
    
    ...except over the septic tank.  The grass there was SO thick
    and SO green, that it stuck out like a sore thumb.
    
    Donna
    

    The leach field makes for green grass too. I always thought it was
    greener there to(or so erma whatshername would have us belive).
    
    So the neighbor stirred up a stink eh? 8^) 
    
    -j
    

    I have a small raised bed veggie garden (came with the house) over
    the leach field. Haven't put a drop of fertilizer in 3 years there.
    Stray zucchini have stalled my mower many a time. Try a raised bed
    flower/veggie garden. Might be another idea...
    							Jim
    

    I'm having a problem with the septic system now that my kids are
    back home from school. The leaching field is overflowing. 
    
    - What is involved in moving/adding to a leaching field? 
    I have plenty of land. 
    
    - What does it cost?
    
    - Does anyone know of contractors in SE Mass?

    My question is similar to .30
    
    I'm buying a house and the bank requires a septic certificate. 
    The house is 6-7 years old.  I went with a complete "pump dry and
    inspect" certificate yesterday.  The guy says the leach pit is very
    slow to non-operational.  I've got a week til we schedule closing.
    What can I do?  Does anyone know about leach pits, as opposed to
    leach fields?  I'm thinking that the next step is to have a talk
    with the city health inspector.
    
    Everything else about the house is only a minor problem.  Owner
    says she's never had a problem in 2 1/2 years.
    
    Any wisdom would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Elaine.
    The city is Gardner, Mass.

    re:  .7
    
    Willie, could you explain your situation with the leach field? 
    I'm buying a home with a "very slow" leach field.  That's a euphemism
    for "non-operational".  I'm surprised because the house is only
    6-7 years old.  But, as you said, it has been abused.  How old is
    your system?  Have you gotten any estimates for replacing the field
    yet?
    
    Perhaps others will want to know, too.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Elaine

    re .16
    
    My house is about 14 years old and uses a leach pit instead of a
    leach field.  The pit is like the concrete tank except it is open
    at the bottom and has holes in the side.  From last summer through
    November, I had my septic tank pumped out four times and the pit
    pumped once.  The system has been 'working' since then although
    a little on the slow side.
    
    I haven't gotten any estimates on either replacing the pit or putting
    in a leach field yet (been waiting for the ground to dry out some
    more) but one guy last fall quoted me $1500 to install a second
    leach pit off the first one.  Another guy told me that for the soil
    I have (mostly gravel) I should have a leach field instead.
    
    If you're buying a home with a non-working system, make sure you
    find out what it's going to cost before you close the deal on the
    house.  I believe that before a contractor can put in a new system,
    the design of the system has to be approved by the town (board of
    health, prehaps?) so you may want to check with them as well.
    
    Also, you could use the system even though the leach field is
    completely blocked by getting the tank pumped out more often (like
    every month, maybe).  
    
    good luck,
    
    -willie
    

    My system is a leach pit, too.  Those can be pumped, too?  My soil
    is "cow sand", i.e. moist, sticky sand.  I wonder if a leach field
    would be better.
    
    Pardon me, I ramble.  Do you mind telling me where you live?
    

    I live right next door in Westminster.
    
    -willie
    

I live in Shirley and I need a new septic system. Can anyone
tell me what kind of problems (permits, plans, board of health,
other red tape) I might run in to? Do I have to apply for a permit
first or do I just find a contractor and let him handle the rest?

Bill

    When we had new drain field put in last summer the contractor
    did all of the work. Scheduled perk tests with the health
    department, got the building permit, etc.
    
    I don't believe the requirements for replacement of a system
    are as strict as for a new system. For example no plan were
    drawn except for the sanitarian's sketch.

    Ah ! another inhabitant of bustling downtown Shirley.
    
    Bill, this is not in response to your question, but it has occurred
    to me, as I've developed a fine distrust of my home's builder...
    Consider going to a larger tank size if the money's not too out
    of line.  It would give you a greater margin, and may help sway
    any potential buyer with a large family (more than say 2) and a
    city-bred type as well (like me).  Just a thought.
    
    Dwight

    I hope I'm not bothering you with these questions.  How many people
    in your house?  And how long have you been there?  Did you know
    about the leach field problem when you bought it?  How did you diagnose
    the problem?  Did you have any professional opinions?
    
    How do I go about finding someone to do an estimate on replacing
    it, etc?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Elaine
    

    re .33
    
    How do I find these contractors?  Do I look under "Contractor" in
    the Yellow Pages?
    
    Elaine
    

    This is an update to 832.25.  After that last snowstorm, I watched
    very carefully as the snow melted to find that magical warm spot.
    Of course, The snow melted around the concrete first!  My worst
    suspicions were confirmed this weekend by a neighbor.  Her children
    had been digging in the sand and had dug up the access cover to
    our septic tank once upon a time.  So... we checked and sure enough
    the original (STUPID) owner poured a concrete slab over the septic
    tank!!!  We can get to an access cover by breaking off one corner
    of the slab.  I assume there are two covers, so my latest question
    is -- can the tank be properly pumped from only one cover?
    Thanks,
    Ruth

>    < Note 832.35 by TASMAN::EKOKERNAK >
>    
>    How do I find these contractors?  Do I look under "Contractor" in
>    the Yellow Pages?
 
    Close, you look under "Septic Tanks & Systems"
    
    I can give you a name of a very good contractor, but I don't think
    he would come in from Michigan.
    
    Jim

    How about those "blue" tablets/bottles that help keep mineral deposits
    from forming on the toilet, and also "freshen up the bowl"? The labels 
    on most of these say "Harmless to septic systems," but I'm skeptical. 
                                   
    I'll try one, but only if it only also says "contains no bleach."
    
    M

    re: .36
    
    Yes, you can pump out the septic tank from only one of the covers.
     Mine was done yesterday.  Now if I could only pump the sludge from
    my leaching field!
    
    /bruce
    

    re. 20
    
    I have 4 people in the house and had been there about a year before
    the problems started to show up.  When my system started to back
    up only 9 weeks after I had it pumped out, I new I had problems.
    
    -willie
    

    I have been learning a bit about this lately.  Did anyone recommend
    acid treating the leach field?  My mother's next door neighbor had
    this done with great results (family of 5 adults).  I'm hoping that
    this will help my situation.  It's interesting that I've also seen
    a handful of people say they have to get their leach field fixed
    because it's been clogged by their own or the previous owner's abuse.
    
    There oughtta be a law...

    A brand new, or well-cared for system, if not cared for AT ALL (i.e.
    dump grease, use bad detergents, colored t.p., etc) will deteriorate
    to the point of being a problem in seven (7) years.
    
    This is under the best of conditions.
    
    This has been learned by recent experience and subsequent extensive
    informal research.
    
    Elaine

    
    I've heard of two different ways to treat a leach field, the most
    common is the acid treatment, the other is with hydrogen peroxide.
    
    Both are used for the same purpose, to clean the junk off the stones
    in the field.  However, both treatments can be used only so many
    times before they too, are ineffective.  
    
    When you have problems with your leach field it's because it's full
    of solid matter, and it won't drain.  These treatments break up
    the solid matter, allowing the field to have drainage. The problem
    is that the solid matter doesn't disappear, it re-solidifies at
    the bottom of the field, so after so many treatments, there is no
    where for the solids to go, and you need a new field.
    
    So, I would certainly opt for the treatment of the field first.
    
    
    You're right there ought to be a law, for some though there is
    legal recourse.                                      
    
    My brother-in-law and his wife bought an older home in Clinton from
    a little old lady who lived there alone.  Sometime after he bought
    the house, they began having problems with the septic system, and
    called the local septic guy to take a look.  The guy showed up,
    and immediately told them they needed a new leach field.  "How do
    you know that, without looking?" My BIL asked. "Because I told the
    old lady 2 years ago, that she needed one then, do you think it's
    improved in 2 yrs???"   My BIL called his lawyer, and they filed
    suit, and got some relief from the old lady on the cost of the field.
    
    Sometimes there is justice.
    
    rgds, Ray
    
    
    

    
    re.9  That's right, and if pumped annually, it should last 20+ years.
    
    Ray

>    re.9  That's right, and if pumped annually, it should last 20+ years.

My folks' house has gone in excess of 20 years without *ever* pumping. 
No sign of problems.  My brother and brother-in-law, both of whom have
spent many years in the "waste" business (we have a more jockular term
for around the house) say that a system properly sized for the number
of occupants in the house and properly sited should never need
attention.  All the solids should get eaten, all the liquids drain away.
An annual pump out seems a little waste-full (sorry) to me.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    re: .9
    
      I was told by the board of health guy that septic systems should
    last about 55 years before needing replacement.  I was also told
    that the worst thing you can do is use a disposal (not a problem
    if you have town sewerage).  I have a cesspool as well as a septic
    system.  The cesspool wasn't enough for the previous owners so they
    added the septic system.  What I'm curious about is if anyone has
    used the TX-# bacteria additives to their systems.  There is a whole
    assortment of these (TX-1 to TX-11?) that range from totally harmless 
    like RID-X to specialty ones that consume grease (and are not harmless
    if swalled).                         
    
    -Jim

re : > < Note 270.12 by HPSMEG::LUKOWSKI "I need an 'AUX' for my stereo" >
     >                  -< Anyone try TX bacteria additives? >-

	I've been putting RID-X into my system every few months.  Can't 
	really say if it's doing much good as my system is only 3 years
	old, I don't have a disposal, I send my clothes washer water to
	a drywell, and theres only two of us living there and we are 
	hardly ever home.  But no reason to take chances.  Anything to
	help break up the solids and keep the leach field clean is worth
	the PM as far as I'm concerned.

	-gary

    RE: .23, .23
    
    Can this acid treatment be done by us common folk or is it something
    to be done by a pro?  How is the acid applied to the leach field?
    Does it kill vegetation over the field?
    
    Phil
    

      I wasn't very clear.  I use RID-X myself but I am curious about
    the TX (whatever number) that specifically consumes grease.  I never
    dump grease into the drains but wonder if normal amounts from washing
    dishes can ever pose a problem. And, if so, should this stuff be
    used.  The TX-# referenced above may be for drains only and not
    septic systems, I'm not sure on that one.
    
    -Jim
    

    	I don't think it is a DIY job.  I saw the guys do it to my mom's
    house about three years ago, and it wasn't a pretty sight.  They
    poured 4 40 gallon carboys of strong acid 

    
    re.11  Of course, the person who told me an annual pumping was
    necessary was in the business, so the advice may have been slightly
    biased. ;^)
    
    How do you know if a system is properly sized? 
    
    Ray

    RE: .25
    
    Where did they pour it?  Into the tank?  Over the leach field? 
    Into the pipe leaving the septic tank?  I've never had reason to
    gaze into a septic tank, luckily.  Is it possible to reach the pipe
    leading to the leach field?  Isn't there something called a
    distribution box between the septic tank and the leach field?  Maybe
    this is where it goes?
    
    Phil

    re .15 "...how do you know if the unit is properly sized ?"
    
    	Rush right out to your nearest decent sized/stocked neighborhood
	library and look up septic systems (I found a book in the Marlboro
    	library) which discusses exactly that - size.
    
    Or contact the local board of health; better yet, the county extension
    agent (for Middlesex County, MA : 369-4845).  The number of people
    in the house determines minimum size; eg., 1000 gallons for 2 adults
    I think.
        
    Dwight

    
    Phil, you hit it right on the nose (no pun). They pour it right
    into the distribution box on the leachfield side of the tank. They
    don't pour it into the tank itself because it will kill the bacteria
    which will ruin the tank or at least deter the working of the tank.
    The cost is about $100 if you find the distribution box and dig
    it up.
    
    Jim.
    

    Last winter our septic system failed.  Since they previous owner
    had put 4 feet of fill over the tank, we didn't even know where
    the !@#$%^& thing was.  A backhow had to be called in to find it
    for us.
    	Eventually we got the tank pumped out, and I asked the operator
    how frequently it should be done (the house was 8 years old).  He
    said about every 3 years should do it.... We have 2 adults, 2 kids,
    and a thousand gal. tank.  
    	I find it *real* hard to believe that _all_ solids will be eaten
    and a properly cared for tank will _never_ have to be pumped.
    Obviously, there are going to be differences of opinions about what
    proper care is.  Personally, I'd just as soon flush anything I want
    down there and pump it out every 3 years @ $50 than dig a dry well
    for the wash machine, etc., etc.  
    	By the way, other people in the business have had another term
    they use for the belief that a tank will never have to be pumped
    out.... :-)
    

    I'm going halves on a piece of land in Barre, MA. The owner supplied
    perc results. What it says is ground water at 5 feet, ledge at 10
    feet, recommend a curtain drain or a built up system. Can someone
    interpret this for us? I'm aware of what a built up system would
    involve, but what's a curtain drain? Thanx for any help! -Tom R.

>    feet, recommend a curtain drain or a built up system. Can someone
>    interpret this for us? I'm aware of what a built up system would
>    involve, but what's a curtain drain? Thanx for any help! -Tom R.

A curtain drain is a ditch (deep) with a drain tile near bottom, and a 
plastic curtain on the down hill side.  The ditch is filled with porus
fill, usually crushed 1.5 inch rock (washed).

The idea is water flowing downhill is intercepted and drained to surface
where it won't be a problem.  The net effect is the lowering of the 
ground water table on the down hill side of the curtain (aka intercepter 
drain).

The federal tax payers spent a lot of money on the research back in the 
'60s through the USDA/ARS/SWC.  They do work, I have one that is almost
300 feet long and 14 feet deep.  Big bucks.

    
    	I am getting some rather large wet spots on my lawn, along with
    'softening' of the soil. To the point that when mowing last
    one wheel of the mower 'sank' into this stuff.
    	
    	The area described is over my leach pits. (I have been told
    there are three of them). I have a 1000 gal septic with a distribution
    box about 50ft from that and the pits beyond. I had the tank pumped
    out for the first time last year. We have owned the house for 8
    and told that the 1000 gal system was installed 15 yrs prior. We have
    never had any problems. (I had it pumped on the recommendation of
    a friend when I "thought" we were having problems.)
    
    All drains seem to be working ok, nothing plugged up. My concern
    is with these rather large wet spots. I know we took on close to
    two feet of water this spring (rain) and wonder if this may be causing
    the problem, though I would think it would have dried by now.
    
    Anyone else experience this before?
    Any thoughts on next action to be taken?
    Anything else I should check on????
    
    Steve. :-(

    Push a stick into the wet spot and pull it back out. If it smells
    bad, you know what the problem is. If not, you're in luck and you
    can just blame it on the rain. This is a trick I learned from the
    guy who inspected my house before purchase.

    Is there anything one has to do to a spetic that has not been used
    for several months ( about 4 months), before starting to use it normally
    again.

    .43
    	It don't smell good.
    
    	Can I then assume that the leach pit is clogged?
    	If so, what are the alternatives. (least costly first)

    We had a similar problem.  Turned out it was at a "junction box" or
    "distribution box" or similar - the outlet from the pump from the holding
    tank.  Then our pump broke ... took two weeks for the guy to try to fix
    the pump  ...  he couldn't  ...  bought a new pump.  When he was installing
    the new pump, I asked him about our wet spot, he said the two week layoff
    was the best thing for a leach field.
    So this doesn't help your situation, but my impression is that a plug
    in a distribution box might be relatively easy to fix.

    We still get wet spots in the spring, but we get LOTS of runoff from the
    hill in back, as well as our neighbors leach field run off.  A stick
    stuck in the ground almost anywhere would smell.  Good lush grass tho.

    FInal outcome:
    
    I got tired of wondering so I set out to find the reason- shovel
    in hand. While I thought I had already dug in the area, it turns
    out there  was only 4-5 inches of dirt covering the cement cover
    of the tank, and that was sandy at best.
    
    I assume that I will have to remove that stuff and put 6-8 inches
    of good quality loam on it before I will have grass.
    
    M

    I'd suggest you place something distinctive but easy to move over
    the cover after you put in your loam, and make sure to have the
    location of the tank and the identification of the marker drawn up 
    in a set of plans that you keep in your files and hand on to the
    next owner when you sell.  The fervent blessings of the next owners
    will follow you wherever you go.
    
    Some friends just moved into a new house and the previous owners
    had clearly marked the cover by setting aside a little raised flower
    bed with landscaping timbers with a removable bird bath dead center
    over the cover - very nice people!
    
    /Dave        
    

    Sand over a septic cover is fairly common as it is a lot easier to 
    dig than dirt and rocks.  But since your cover is only down a few
    inches, put in some loam, gorw some grass, and by all means listen
    to .-1 and mark it!
    
    -willie
    

    
    reg .42
    
    I guesse I'll have to call someone in on the leach field problem.
    Can anyone recommend someone that will service the Gardner Mass.
    area. I had used Bill's from Ashburnham last time, but never had
    a problem till he worked on it.
    
    Thanks...

    Do any of you know how long a perc test is good for? (This is in
    Mass.)  What perc rates are considered good/bad?  Also, if it is
    good for N months, does that mean you must begin construction in
    N months, or just get a building permit in that time frame?
    
    Elaine

    
    
    	I think that perc tests validity varies amongst towns. The boards
    of health in each town decide things such as times of the year when
    a perc can be done (depending on the rainfall, the more the better)
    and how long the perc will be valid. Most towns will allow you an
    extension on the original perc providing you apply before the original
    perc test expires. 
    
     	You are supposed to have a valid perc test until the completion
    of construction.
    
    	A perc test consists of pouring water in a freshly dug hole.
    The bottom line is how fast the water drains from the hole. The
    maximum drain time is 30 minutes per inch of water. The longer it 
    takes to drain the greater the cost for your septic design and construction.
                      
    
    
    Glenn

    I think the only thing a valid (and acceptable) perc test gives
    you is a opportunity to get your septic design. Once you have
    your septic design, you can get, no, make that *apply* for a
    building permit. As long as you have all your other requirements
    met prior to application for a BP. But the perc itself is there
    to get a proper septic design.
    John

    
    
    re -1
    
    That depends on the town and state. Outside Syracuse NY, a perc
    test is required before you can build anything. This includes land
    that has sewer and city water. 
    
    Mike

>    Outside Syracuse NY, a perc
>    test is required before you can build anything. This includes land
>    that has sewer and city water. 

As far as I can tell, that's simply a throwback to when they had to have a perc 
for the septic system, and in a typical bureaucratic non-thinking manner,
they've never bothered to remove it. 

Paul

    Could I get the recommendation of a good pumping company?  I live
    in Carlisle, Ma.

    Sigh, I just spent 15 minutes typing in my story of how I learned
    more about septic systems than I ever really wanted to know.  I
    got tthe prompt to enter a title, typed it in, hit return and got
    an error entering the note 'cause my network partner exited.  Since
    my editing subprocess was now logged out, I lost the reply and don't
    have the energy to relate it all again (perhaps an expert noter
    knows of a way to retrive such a lost message?).
                                             
    Anyway, the point was, don't always believe the septic system
    guys when they say "yup - yer leaching field is going", especially
    if the house is only a few years (<10) old.  A comment from a
    guy putting in carpet at my house (he used to do septic work)
    saved me several thousand dollars.  He said "half the time,
    you've just got a busted pipe; and they'll still put in the
    leaching field".  In my case, he was right (half right - I
    didn't have a new field put in).
    
    A large rock had crushed the pipe between the tank and the
    d-box.  Each guy I had out to estimate the job was saying
    "new leaching field", "big $$$" ($3.2k-$5.5k estimates).  After
    this guys comment, I had one of them look for a broken pipe before
    proposing the leaching field.  Total repair bill: $375.

    I have heard that flushing a yeast cake down the toilet every 
    one in a while (monthly?) will really keep your system in good
    shape.  it helps promote bacteria growth that's needed for
    breaking down the waste.  I've also that some folks that did
    this NEVER needed to have their tank pumped.  Any comments?
    
    Rob

    .28:
    
    Have you tried REPLY/LAST?
    
    Dick
    

    Re: .29
    
    Not likely.  Solids are solids are solids; some stuff just doesn't
    get digested by the wee beasties, and that's what has to be pumped
    out occasionally.  If you treat your septic system with kindness,
    it won't need pumping very often, but NEVER is pushing it.  If you
    do treat your septic system kindly, it won't need any yeast or
    anything to help it along, and if you don't treat it kindly, yeast
    (or anything else) won't help.
    I doubt that yeast would help anyway; they're not the bacteria that 
    do the job in a septic tank.  

    I have heard about the yeast idea too. I don't think you just want
    to flush the yeast cake down the toilet, you want to activate the
    yeast first. To activate the yeast put it in warm water, around
    105 to 110 degrees (if I remember correctly). Add a teaspoon of
    sugar, stir and let it sit about 10 minutes. You know when you have
    good yeast when the solution gets foamy on the top.
    
    I have done this about every month or two for over a year. When
    a service person came to pump the tank, we told him that we were
    doing this. He said that we didn't need to any more because everything
    was breaking down well.
    
    I have a question about septic systems. I know there has been mention
    of chemicals in the septic system not being good for it. How bad
    is dumping liquid plumber (and the like) down the drains?
    
    Linda
    

    I think yeast is the wrong kind of bacteria (like .31 said).  The
    stuff that works in the tank is anaerobic, i.e. no air bacteria.
    For those of you with problem systems, the product you want is
    "Microbe Lift".  It is one quart of the right bacteria in a liquid.
    It costs $12.00 (at my local Tru-Value Hardware).  It has
    recommendations for different levels of problems.  If your system
    has been diagnosed as borderline, one dose every six months, in
    combination with proper pumping every 2-4 years should solve your
    problems.  There are more serious doses for more serious situations.
    
    The best part is, it's all natural... no chemicals.  My situation
    is borderline, but my neighbors was a constant problem until they
    used this and now they swear by it.  I figure $24 a year is a small
    price to pay.
    
    Elaine

    We've had good results with Rid-X, which is in dry form.  We were
    having odor problems that we thought might be either too short a
    vent pipe or problems with the septic, but a healthy dose of Rid-X
    solved the problem.
    
    Clay

    Another satisfied Rid-X user.  Also, it's cheaper than Microbe
    Lift.  Once a month, down the john.  Greatly assists liquefaction,
    supplements the anaerobic buggies that may have been killed off
    by chemicals.
    
    pbm
    

    Where does one purchase Rid_X and what does it cost?

    >>Where does one purchase Rid-X and what does it cost?
    
    Spags of course!  Actually I suspect you could buy it just about
    anywhere.  I believe I paid $2.79 for it at Spags and have even
    seen it on sale there in the past.
    
    -Jim
    

    Rid-X is available at any grocery store.
    
    andy
    

    re: REPLY/LAST didn't work.  NOTES$BUFFER came up empty.  This
    was even though I had NOT exited NOTES.  I think the problem was
    because the note was not "successfully" entered and perhaps it
    didn't consider it to be my LAST reply.  
    
    Thanks for the input on yeast - I hadn't tried it myself, since
    I didn't really have any "normal" septic system problems - other
    than that busted pipe.
    
    Rob

    Might one assume that these microbe doses, which will help things
    out when you have problems, will not cause problems if you apply
    them as preventative maintenance when you don't have problems?
    
    Dick
    

    re: .40  That is correct.  I've never heard of too much bacteria
    

    re: .35
    
    Excuse me, but how is $2.79 a month cheaper than $12.00 every six
    months?
    
    Must be new math.

    re: .42
    
    While you may want to dump a whole box down the drain if you have
    a problem, the normal preventitive maintenance dose is something like
    a half cup, so the $2.79 box lasts for several months.

    
    Clay

      Re: .40
    
      That's the idea behind Rid-X.  I don't believe it has any claim
    of helping you when you have a problem but it IS for preventative
    maintenance. The directions are something to the effect of flush two 
    cups the first time you use it and then one cup per month thereafter. 
    There is a company that has bacterial products specifically for
    when you have a problem.  I don't know the name of the company but
    their products are something to the effect of FX-5, FX-7, etc..
    They do have PM type products but the ones that consume a quantity
    of grease overnight are not 'harmless' like the RID-X type and warn
    you of the hazard. I have a problem with my kitchen drain and
    am considering trying this stuff out. If I do, I'll post the results.
    
    -Jim

    Received from fellow noter and passed along to all... Elaine
    
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    
    From:	EAGLE1::KONG         "Tom Kong BXB1-1/E11 293-5361" 19-JUN-1987 10:50

I was just wandering around the Booksmith at Coolidge Corner
the other day and glanced briefly at a book on plumbing.  
It has a chapter on maintenance of septic systems.  I didn't
read it in detail, but what I learnt was the following:

There are two kinds of bacteria doing the digestion.  One
kind survives anarobically (sp?) and they live mainly in
the tank, doing all the predigestion.  The yuk then flows
to the leach field where the second kind of bacteria 
breaks it down aerobically.  Animal fats are not good
to the bacteria, not to mention they also clog the pipes.
Too much water flow is also no good.  That is why many
people hook up the washer separately to a drywell.  High
water flow supposedly washes out the crud before it gets
digested in the tank, so when it gets to the leach field,
the aerobic bacteria cannot handle it, thus clogging
the leach field.  The book also mentioned that if you
smell foul odour near the tank/leach field, the most probable
cause is too much water flow, like too many people living
in a house for the septic to handle.
Anyways, enough rambling for now.  I used to have sooo much
more free time before owning a house....

/tom
    

    re: .44
    
    Jim,
    
    The Microbe Lift I mentioned would be better than the FX products
    you mention.  It is heavier duty than the Rid-X, and it is all natural.
    The most extreme use of it is if you have a very bad grease build
    up in the tank, so as to warrant acid treating of the tank, the
    Microbe Lift will get the system going again once the acid has worked
    its way through the system.
    
    I suggest you look into harmless natural methods first.
    
    Elaine

    re: .46
      
     Elaine,
    
      I didn't mean to imply that this stuff was not harmless in your septic
    system but rather if someone were to ingest some.  I went back too
    look at the descriptions of these and I was wrong...FX products
    are harmless.  Now I'm really lost.  I can't remember which product
    I was reading the description of that was good for removing sludge
    build-up in drains.  I could have sworn I saw something that specified
    a quantity that would be consumed over a period of time. I'll check
    into the Microbe Lift you mentioned.
                                          
    -Jim
    

    Why does dumping your washer water into the septic system hurt?
    Since it adds nothing to the solids, as long as your drain field
    is large enough I don't see why there is a problem.
    
    Jeff

    Re: .20
    
    See note 991.45, Jeff.  With three different septic system notes
    going at once (270, 832 and 991), it is sometimes difficult to decide
    where to add comments.
    
    Elaine

    Forbes Magazine recently ran an article on a company that specilaizes
    in engineering graywater recycling systems for home and office.
    The company's figures were interesting for anybody considering the
    modification of a septic system: in a home, 40% of the water usage
    is applied to washing clothes; in a commercial establishment, 90%
    of the water usage is applied to flushing toilets.
    
    pbm
    

    I recently went to my town hall to look at the septic system plans for
    my house, and it looks like I won't be able to build a dry-well for the
    washing machine.  The seasonal high-water table is only about four feet
    down (if I recall correctly), and town regulations state that the
    bottom of a dry well must be at least four feet from the seasonal
    high-water table.  Thus, if I wanted to put the washing machine on a
    separate system, I would need to build a separate leech field. 
    
    The thought of building another leech field is not encouraging; I'd
    need to clear some land of trees, fill in a significant portion of
    land, and do some more landscaping.  Not something I'd like to do ...
    
    Then I got to thinking: Is the harm of a washing machine on a septic
    system due to the load on the septic tank (i.e. diluting the water in
    the septic tank relatively quickly), or is it more due to the load on
    the leech field itself?  If I located the D-box for my leech field (I
    have pretty good measurements from known locations so finding it
    shouldn't be too difficult), would it be better to drain the washing
    machine directly into the leech field (bypassing the septic tank), or
    would it be better to leave the system as is (draining into the septic
    tank)?  The leech field is supposed to be more than large enough for a
    three bedroom house-load of people - considering that I live alone, I'd
    venture to say this is certainly the case.
    
    	-- Jeff

    There's a couple of problems that I can see with going directly
    into the septic tank.  One is the large volume of water it dumps
    in.  The second (and perhaps more serious) is that most detergents
    that you would use in a washer will kill the bacteria (even the
    anaerobic type?) that breaks down the normal waste.
    
    However, dumping directly into the d-box may cause another problem.
    The washing machine wastewater may contain a lot of lint that might
    clog the holes in the leaching field pipes.  Also, again, the soap
    might also build up and clog the holes (in addition to also killing
    bacteria in the leach field).
    
    If you can't go to a separate drywell, I'd vote for dumping to the
    tank and staying away from the d-box.
    
    just my opinion...others?
    
    Rob

    Does anyone know someone in the Pepperell/Townsend area who pumps
    septic tanks.  I just called a place and they wanted $90 which 
    I thought was high.
    

    $90 is not high; a month ago I had two pumped, one in Acton and
    one in Marlboro -- both were $110 or so.
    
    stephen

    re: .22
    
    $90 is a good price, but it probably means you have to expose the
    cover for them.
    
    Man the clothespins!
    
    Elaine :-0
    

    re: .22
    
    I'm not sure if $90 is a good deal.  Up here in NH, I had St. Onge
    come out to do my tank, and they did all of the digging, pumping,
    and replacing of the dirt AND sod (couldn't tell it was ever done),
    and the cost was only $60.  I don't know if Mass is higher or not,
    but the price difference seems like a lot.
    
    Just a thought.
    
    andy
    

    It might also be going higher soon.  Many pumpers in that area that
    used to haul the (whatever) to Lawrence found themselves looking
    for other places to dump when an incinerator in Lawrence was forced
    to close down for at least a month.  Because in most cases they had
    to travel further to dump, they ended up jacking up their prices.
    $90 does not sound like you're being taken for a ride.
    
    Jim

    How big is the tank?  I live in Holden, MA and was quoted $96 for
    500 gallons or less.  Aprox. $50 to pump, $40 to dump.  $25 additional
    if they had to dig up the cover.  You could this yourself though.

    Re: .26
    
    Actually it was the Sewerage treatment plant in North Andover that
    closed its doors to outside contractors. The problem was that the
    nearby residents were complaining of bad odors. The residents
    contention was that the plant was handling more sewerage than it
    should, hence the ban.
    
    The ban is due to come off Oct 1, 1987. In the interim the plant
    has discovered, that some of the treatment bacteria died due to
    heavy metals dumping by a local company, which they claim will be
    rectified shortly. The residents committee is still holding for
    the ban to continue (isn't local politics wunnerful).
    
    I became familiar with this when we went to see about a septic
    inspection for a new house we are trying to buy. The local septic
    service told it would cost $100 and they would have to apply for
    an "emergency" permit to do it. After Oct 1, 1987 they would charge
    $60, and wouldn't the special permit.
    
    /jim

    Thanks for the input.  It looks like $90 is the going rate
    around here.  
    Why do they charge separate to pump it into their truck and then more
    to dump it?
    Can I tell them I want it pump it out, but not to go dump it?
    

Re:  < Note 270.29 by VIDEO::FINGERHUT >

>   Can I tell them I want it pump it out, but not to go dump it?
    
    Sure, but they're probably bill you to replace the truck they leave
    sitting in your driveway!
    
    (:>

re .29:

Since Westford just had a special town meeting that included this - 

Each town in Mass. must have a specific arrangement for where septage (is that
really a word?) may be dumped.  The cost of dumping depends on what the dump
site charges.

From this, I assume that the pumping companies are breaking the billing
up because the dump charge is town dependent?

/Dave

    I would also venture a guess that they break down the charge to
    educate people about the process.  As this stuff gets harder and
    harder to get rid of, the dumping charge will increase much faster
    than the pumping charge.  They probably don't want people thinking
    they are ripping them off when dumping charges (which they have
    no control over) skyrocket.  Its also important when comparing prices
    in different areas.  Just a guess, though...
    
    Phil

    
      I'm in the process of having a septic system designed , and found
    that the area that was perced is gonna cost close to 10k for a
    system. So I'm gonna hold off for now and attempt to find a better
    location for it. Could someone give me details on how to do a perc?
    
    thanks, gerry.

    From what I understand, all they do is dig a small hole, fill it
    with water and time how long it takes to drain.  Soil samples might
    also be taken.  It really depends upon the person doing the testing.

    
      I'll be doing it myself. I know that you dig a hole , and add
    water and count. However , I've heard 2' deep 1' deep and you add
    3" of pea stone. Has anyone done there own ?

I doubt that a perc you do yourself will have any effect on the legal limit of
the leach field; after all, in the interest of saving money now, you might very
well shade the results a bit.  I suspect you have to have some registered third
party do the official perc. 

But, if all you want to do is find a better place for it, you can use almost 
any perc method you want, so long as you're consistent.  Do one first where the 
leach field is currently placed, and then try other places, using the same
method.  One thing I do know about them is that you're supposed to saturate the
ground fairly well - pour water in the hole, and then keep adding water to keep
it at the same level for about 15 minutes, then measure the amount of time the
level takes to drop one inch.  If you find another place in your yard where the
perc is significantly better, then call in someone to do an official one. 

Remember the the cost of the field is also dependent on the depth of the
seasonal high water or ledge.  Here in NH, the bottom of the field must be 4'
above seasonal high water (which they determine by oxide deposits in the soil)
and 8' above ledge.  If you find somewhere that percs better but the water
table or ledge is higher, it may very well cost you MORE, not less. 

Also, if you have any other areas on your land that you could bulldoze fill 
from, you can save a lot of money.  We had them move a small hill on our land 
to make the septic system, and saved about $3000.  As the excavator said, 
"You've already bought all THIS dirt, why buy more?"

Paul

Details may vary from reality here because I was watching in silence
and had a vested interest in the process and its outcome, but I think
this is a fairly accurate picture of a perc: 

They remove all topsoil and go down to a certain depth. In my case a
back hoe dug a hole about 4' deep. Then at the bottom of that hole,
the engineer dug a hole about 10" in diameter and about another two
feet deep. 

He filled the smaller hole with water and kept replenishing the water 
to keep the hole filled for about 15 minutes. Then he measured the 
amount of time necessary for the water to go down one inch and then 
the second inch.

Then they repeat the entire process 50-100' away: you need a primary 
and secondary field. The secondary field is for sometime in the future 
in case the primary field fails. 

According to the engineer and the Board of Health person in attendance 
(it was more like a ritual circumcision than anything else with all 
the realtors, officials, buyers, engineers, diggers, etc., standing 
around!) the rate of 2" is the best they will allow.

They told me the cost of a system primarily determined by the ground 
water, because of the amount of fill necessary to bring in to raise 
the bottom of the field 4' over the ground water. The speed of the 
perc determined the size of the leach field.

John H.

    I had Alan Bancroft of Pepperell inspect my tank this year (for
    a refinancing).  The inpection-only was $35, I forget his quote
    for a cleanout - I think ti was around $70-80.
    
    Rich

    At least where I live, Gloucester, Ma., I had to hire a certified
    civil engineer to do the perc.  The perc also has to be done in
    the presence of an agent from the city's board of health.  It turned
    out that the only place on my lot where the leaching field could
    go spanned across 65 feet which had to be filled on one side and
    ledge blasted on the other.  My septic system ended up costing me
    about $10,000.00.  And now within the next two years city sewerage
    will be coming down my street which I must hook up to for a mere
    $2,400.00.  Homeownership, I love it.
    

>        I had Alan Bancroft of Pepperell inspect my tank this year (for
>    a refinancing).  The inpection-only was $35, I forget his quote
>    for a cleanout - I think ti was around $70-80.

    It's $95.  He's the one I got to do it.
    Thanks.
    

    RE: .4 > This sounds accurate. I saw it being done on a friends
                land but didn't recall all the particulars. Just remember,
             The town codes must be adhered to should they be more
              restrictive than the state. The state codes are the minimum
             acceptable.

    MArk

    I have noticed a slight nagging septic-like odor coming from my
    bathroom sink.  I notice it sometimes when I put on my make-up in the 
    morning.  The drains in the bathroom are both slow (the tub and
    the sink can't handle a large flow of water).  Could these things
    be related?
    
    I'm a single resident of a septic tank and pit designed for 2.5
    people.
    
    Elaine

>    I'm a single resident of a septic tank and pit designed for 2.5
>    people.

Well, there you go.  You really should move out of the tank into a house.  No 
matter how you scrub those tanks, it's nearly impossible to get the smell out.
:^)

Seriously though, yes, the slow drain could be related to the smell.  The slow 
drain shows something clogging the drain (brilliant, right?).  The smell shows 
that the trap is going dry (also brilliant).  If the clog is fibrous (like 
hair, lint, etc), and extends from the bottom of the trap, over the top and 
down the drain further, it could act as a siphon drawing the water out of the 
trap.  You should be able to fix it by clearing out the drain.  

Paul

    Thanks, Paul.  I'll call my realtor this afternoon!
    8-)

    
    
    	The cost of pumping a tank in Shrewsbury is $90 with something
    like $28 of it going for the dumping charge.  As far as frequency
    of pumping we have it pumped in mid-fall every year.  There are
    four of us in the house with lost of flushing, etc.  The $90 once
    a year is much cheaper then replacing a septic system, like some
    of the people in notes 832 and 991 are facing.  As far as additives
    like RID-X etc. go, the guy who pumps and inspects mine says they
    are not good to use since they tend to liquify all of the things
    that you would rather have settle to the bottom.  Once liquified,
    they travel out ot the leach field and clog the field.  This guy
    says the reason you pump is to remove this sludge at the bottom
    of the tank.  The longer you wait between pumpings the harder the
    sludge gets.  If it gets too hard they have to chip it or replace
    the tank.
    
    	By the way you can save some money on the pumping charge by
    locating and uncovering the access cover yourself.  I let them do
    it the first time then I measured and drew a map.  Now it takes
    me around 15 minutes to locate and dig the hole and that saves me
    around $25.  Also, as gross as this sounds the guy that cleans my
    tank hoses it out and does an inspection every time.  He puts a
    ladder in and looks for cracks in the tank and input and output
    baffles.
    
    
    

    I've searched this conference for information on alternative
    methods of sewage disposal - legal in Mass and came up empty-
    handed.
    
    The SEPTIC notes were all on existing systems. Does anyone
    know what approved alternatives exist? (Clivus Multrums and
    two-holers are not what I'm looking for.)
    
    Some States allow or will variance sand filters; evapo-
    transpiration systems; aerobic systems;_________(others?)...
    
    Thanks a heap!
    
    Gary

    
    Aerobic septic systems? Is that like when the SH_T hits the fan?
    
    Sorry, I couldn't resist ;^)
    
                                  -Steve

    I just had a house built this winter, and the topsoil hasn't been 
    brought in yet.  Last weekend we set up a volleyball net on top of
    the fine sand we have covering our leechfield.  Now I am seriously
    considering having a couple more loads of fine sand dumped there
    rather than loam.  I figure the sand is cheaper than the loam so the
    builder should have no problem with agreeing to it.  

    I can't see too much problem with this can you?

    I will use railroad ties or landscaping timbers to hold in the sand and
    it will be at the same grade as the rest of the lawn.

    Thanks,
    
    George

    I like this once-a-month response method -
    
    Have you tried contacting your friendly, county Extension Agent??
    	Middlesex (MA) County - 617  369-4845
    
    Then try the State's offices - Health, Water Conservation, ...
    
    Dwight

    RE: .48
    
    Ummmmm....  Did you happen to smell anything???
    
    If not, then you probably will this summer and it might be tough
    getting people to play VB.
    
    A beach it ain't...
    
    	Phil

    RE: .49

    We didn't smell anything at all.  This a brand new house with
    a septic system that is big enough to support six people and
    there is only my wife and myself living there.

    This is a slightly raised system. The mound was about 1 1/2 feet higher
    than the normal grade.  But they regraded and the mound is very slight.
    The Vball area would only be on the very top and not on the sides of the
    mound.  

    If I bring in another 4-6 inches of sand should this provide
    enough of a buffer zone? The water will leech downwards through
     the gravel of the system will it not?

    George

    
    I would still wait until you've spend a spring and a summer there
    before doing anything over the leech field.  I don't think you'd
    damage it (unless there are very heavy people playing VB ;-)), but
    I think you might regret it later if there is a problem.  Just put
    the net up and wait...
    
    Phil

I have read 270, 832, and 991, and (believe it or not) still have a question...

Our tank is 25 yrs old - seems in good shape.  When we bought the place last
year, the septic inspector said it didn't need a pumping until this year. (It
was 2 yrs since the last pumping at the time). We have no disposal, we do
drain our washer into the system (3-4 loads/week w/Tide), and, because I
didn't know better until recently, we had been putting what small
petroleum-based chemicals we used down into the system. 

We had it pumped today, the guy's only comment was "there were lots of solids
to pump out, and you're low on bacteria".  Of course, he had his company's
once/month chemical additive to sell me, only $95/yr for 12 treatments. 

I have no complaints with the system - seems to drain just fine.  My question:

In the absence of symptoms, how do I know whether adding bacteria will do me
good or harm, and how do I tell how much is right to add? 

thanx/j 

    I don't believe that too MUCH bacteria would do any harm to the
    system.  Too little of course, and the system would start to back
    up because of the solids.  I don't believe you need once a month
    treatments.  That seems excessive.  There is a company on the market
    called "ROEBIC" that sells bacteria for septic systems.  Their re-
    commendation is once a year.  If you continue to pump the tank
    every 2 to 3 years, I don't believe you should anticipate ANY
    problems with the system.  Bacteria by itself, reproduces extreme-
    ly fast, additives are usually recommended when indigestible chem-
    icals and other solids that are accidently or purposely flushed
    into the system which kill the resident bacteria.  Petroleum pro-
    ducts are a no-no though because if it gets into the leachfield
    it can clog pipes and/or coat the ground so that absorption will
    not occur.  However, no amount of bacteria will help in that sit-
    tuation.  
    	My suggestion would be to just maintain a 2-3 year pumping
    schedule, stop the petroleum flushes, and let nature take it's
    course.  If you want to add bacteria to give the startup a boost,
    fine, but one treatment should be enough.  Roebic costs about 
    $10.00.

    The buildup of solids could be the result of improper pumping on
    previous occasions and not a sign of anything wrong.  We had faithfully
    pumped our tank several times, using a local pumper (Acton).  This
    year, we called a 'certified' guy from out of town and I stood guard.
    It turned out that the previous pumper took only the fuild, never
    touched the solids and never that there is anothe whole section
    to the HUGE tank.  It was 2/3 full of solids, all of which has now
    been removed.
    

    Monthly treatments???  Forget it.  No need at all, if you treat
    your septic tank with any kind of consideration (as discussed in
    other notes), and if you dump bad stuff in the septic system
    all the treatments in the world won't help.  

    
    
    Hi all,
    
    Hope I'm not duplicating a request here, but since the file is
    so large I thought this would be the quickest way to get an
    answer to this question.
    
    Has anyone out there heard of a product called "SEPTI-CLENE"
    by a company called Miller-Plante, Inc., Cliffside Park, N.J.?
    We received a mailing from them advertising this product as a
    blend of high-potency enzymes that act as a catalystic agent
    and speeds up the fermentation rate when coming in contact with
    organic waste.  They advertize that it is 100% safe to humans,
    animals, all plant matter and pipes, including plastic.  It is
    also supposed to do away with the need to have a septic tank
    pumped out.
    
    The cost is $119.00 for 20 lbs. (6-year supply).

    Any information anyone has on this would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Carole
    

This isn't a duplicate request, but for a quick way to find out what's in this 
file, check out note 1111.  Also see note 1.1 for some basic info on the file.

Paul

    It is also supposed to do away with the need to have a septic tank
    pumped out.
    
Does it break down grease?  If not, the tank will need to be pumped.

    The cost is $119.00 for 20 lbs. (6-year supply).

Maybe I'm just feeling cynical, but if the stuff really worked, surely
they'd let you buy it a year's worth at a time.  Note that $119 is about 
the cost of getting it pumped once.  I believe pumping every 2 to 3 years
is recommended, but I've heard of people who only pump once every 6 years.  
(I'm buying an old house with a cesspool, so I plan to pump yearly.)

	Larry

    
    
    RE: .2  Larry
    
    Thanks for your reply.
    
    Apparently, this product contains Lipase enzymes that "attack all
    fats and greases, breaks down their molecular structure and 
    dissolves them".
    
    It also contains "Amalyse enzymes - These enzymes break down all
    starches they come in contact with, as with Lipase Enzymes the
    molecular structure is broken down and the starches are dissolved.
    Protease - The most common of wastes found in Septic systems,
    these particular type of enzymes literally feed on, break down
    and dissolve all organic wastes of the protease family.  All
    the mentioned enzymes are Salmonella negative, non-pathogenic,
    non-toxic and harmless to animals and man."
    
    C.
    

In the process of learning about septic systems, which I had to do because I'm
buying my first property that has one, all advice points towards staying away
from septic additives of any kind, they won't do anything to help the system.

Nothing can replace having the tank pumped every 3 years or so.  This gets rid
of solids like grease the can't be broken down by the bacteria/enzymes. (they
float in the tank, and are kept out of the leaching system by baffles, which
should be checked periodically too, to make sure the floating grease and crap
doesn't get into and clog the leach fields.)

And human waste contains all the enzymes needed to keep the system working
properly to break down other solids.

I have a nifty booklet put out by the Vermont Agency of Environmental
Conservation, that gives a wealth of info on how septic systems work and how
to maintain them.  If anybody wants a copy, send mail.

Steve

    I have not heard of the product called SEPTI-CLENE, but have been
    using a product called RID-X for the eight yrs I've been in my home.
    Last week I had my septic tank pumped out for the first time and
    the consensus was that it could have waited.  The usual solid cake
    of solids usually floating on top did not exist.  There was about
    10-12 inches of loose solids at the bottom.
    The only problem with septic systems is that no-one is an expert!!!
    Ask ten people the same question and get ten different answers.
    There are pros and cons about using any additive at all.   Some
    say that it causes the solids to break up too rapidly and end up
    clogging your leach field. Others say the opposite.
    There seem to be alot of variables to begin with to affect the
    operation of a septic system, type, pipe grade, soil conditions,
    design, who installed it, and did he care what type of job he was
    doing.
    By the way, I'd like to see a copy of the "Hints Book" mentioned
    in reply #4  

For those of you who use RID-X (or generic)

how often, and how much?  (and why?)

thanx

re .52: < Note 832.52 by BINKLY::WINSTON "Jeff Winston (Hudson, MA)" >

We toss in about a cup (of Rid-X) once a month.

/Dave

>I have a nifty booklet put out by the Vermont Agency of Environmental
>Conservation, that gives a wealth of info on how septic systems work and how
>to maintain them.  If anybody wants a copy, send mail.

I too am in the process of learning about septic systems after
recently moving into my first house with a very green fast
growing grass spot in the back yard.  (The grass really does grow
greener over the septic tank!!!)  Could I trouble you for a copy of
the "nifty booklet put out by the Vermont Agency of Environmental
Conservation"? 

Thanks for your generous offer to make copies,

John F. Klebes
Mailstop:  TWO/B20

    I picked up a small pamphlet on septic systems published by the
    MA Department of Environmental Quality Engineering (DEQE).  I got
    it at the Pepperell town hall, though I'm sure if you call DEQE,
    they'll be glad to send you a copy (once you find the right phone
    number).
    
    By the way, the only class of chemicals they recommend using are
    root killers, if you have a problem with tree roots in your septic
    system.  They explicitly recommend against using additives, and
    suggest DIY annual inspections and periodic pumping instead.  I
    doubt they're biased in favor of the septic tank pumping companies,
    though I can see how they might be biased against chemicals.
    
       Gary

    Most of the discussion in here (and other "septic" notes) implies
    that the liquid in the leach field disperses into the ground.  In
    reality, according to the (former) head of the Board of Health in
    Acton, a high percentage (40% or more) evaporates.
    
    This is why leach fields are (should be) located close to the surfaced
    and why the grass grows so well over them (plenty of moisture).
    One of the methods used to improve this evaporation is to vent the
    field (upside-down "J"s), which you can spot in the middle of lawns
    and parking lots of buildings with septic systems.  Parking lots,
    of course, inhibit evaporation, but they also reduce the amount
    of rainwater that enters the field - somewhat of a "wash".
    
    The implication is that you should NEVER put anything over a leach
    field that will retard the evaporation from it.  (The former owner
    of our house had installed an above-ground pool over part of our
    leach field.  We moved the pool and had a noticeable improvement
    in the septic system.)  
    
    The other implication is that you should be doubly watchful of any
    suspended (or dissolved) solids that may make it to your leach field;
    evaporation of the liquid in the field (almost 100% water) will
    increase the concentration of those solids, thereby speeding the
    process of clogging the field, thus inhibiting the dispersal of
    the remaining liquids into the ground.

    David
    

    
    A related question.
    
    I have heard various opinions about having trees, shrubs, gardens,
    etc. planted on the leach fields.  Seems on the one hand they would
    help suck up water, but the roots might clog things up or, for gardens
    and fruit trees, the fruits/vegetables might concentrate evil
    substances.
    
    Anyone know?
    
    /steve
    

    Re: .42
    I'd avoid anything with significant roots.  
    
    On another subject that has been asked about before:
    I got my septic tank pumped on Monday and asked the guy if salt 
    from a water softener would hurt the septic system.  He said no.  
    So...I hope he's right!

    I've heard people say that it is not a good idea to drive a car
    over a septic tank or leach field.  Is there any particular reason?
    How about fairly large machinery, like a Bobcat.  The weight would
    be spread out over the surface of the treads.  Is that OK?
    
    Steve-who-wants-to-do-landscaping-near-the-septic-system

    The danger of heavy machinery over the septic system is that the
    pipes in the leach field will be crushed.  This may not apply to
    a small Bobcat.
    
    pbm
    

    RE: .43

    Perhaps this is better asked in the GARDEN conference, but how close
    can you get to the leach field with trees?  The leach field in our
    new house (soon) is maybe 10-20 feet from the front.  (I don't know
    for sure.)  I want to plant hemlocks or other dense foliage as a
    privacy hedge along the front line.  Should that be safe enough?
    
    RE: .44, .45
    
    Any suggestions as to to what to do to strongly discourage drivers
    from going over the leach field?  I'm thinking of both friends visiting
    (who should be discouraged by a row of landscape timbers and/or
    flowers) and contractors (who may not be discouraged by anything
    less than a mine field).  I've heard of one story where some
    construction or landscaping crew drove over a leach field after
    explicitly being told not to.
    
       Gary

    .42:
    
    FWIW, some friends figured out where the leach field was when they
    brought in a bunch of daisies and put them in a vase on the dining
    room table.
    
    Dick
    

    Cesspool Question
    -----------------
    
    I am almost 1/3 through reading all septic related notes but still
    have not found the answer. It may be there but if someone could
    just tell me where to find this acid it would safe me much time.
    
    My tank was pumped and the person recommended that I pour 66%
    sulphuric acid into the tank to dissolve the grease buildup over
    the years. I don't know when the tank was last clean before this
    but now it seems like water is coming in at a rate faster than it 
    can be leached. The man recommended 20 gallons , cost $100.
    
    Is there any product out there for DIY that will cost less ?
    
    Many Thanks
    
    Tat

    
    When I had that problem, the guy that pumps my cesspool did an "acid"
    treatment.  It cost about $40 over the cost of pumping (he had to
    pump to get the cesspool empty of all sludge).  It worked.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Bonnie
    
    

Do you or any of your neighbors have WELLS in the area of the septic/leach
system??

If so, I'd think twice before putting any kind of acid into the ground.

Steve    
    

    The houses around me all have town water and sewer. Mine does not
    have town sewer because of the leach in the front of the house.
    
    Tat 

      An  earlier  reply  suggested  installing an oversize septic tank.
      This is not necessarily a good idea. These tanks do there job only
      if  there is a certain flow through them.  i.e. the flow should be
      enough to refill or flush the entire tank every  so  often.   Tank
      sizes  are  set  based  on  the  number  of bedrooms in the house.
      Experience has shown that the water use is very closely related to
      the number of bedrooms. (I've no idea how commercial installations
      are figured.)  I think that if you make the tank too  large  there
      will not be enough flow for it to work properly. I also think that
      building codes  or  health  regulations  or  whatever  are  pretty
      restrictive  as  to  how  much you can deviate from the "standard"
      design size for a given number of bedrooms.  (I believe  that  the
      formula may also take into account the type of soil.)

re .54:

Suppose that the kids grow up and move away - should mom and pop
have their septic tank made smaller to keep it working?  Or take my 
house, which has 3 bedrooms but has 6 rooms that could be used as 
bedrooms.  WHen I get my cesspool replaced, I'd like to get a
4 bedroom or 5 bedroom septic tank if the price is practical, so
that I can increase the size of my family or sell to someone with
a larger family without illegally converting one of my non-bedrooms
into a bedroom (they are non-bedrooms only because the cesspool isn't
approved for more than 3 bedrooms).  You mean I can't do this
and keep the septic system working?  I confess, I thought it was
more a matter of maximum capacity than minimum flow rates.  Any
other opinions/information?

	Thanks,
	Larry

    
    
      The size doesn't matter unless its too small. I just purchased
    a large ranch with an oversized septic system. The original owners
    (just two of them) had lived in the house for 30yrs.
      I had the septic tank inspected and the guy was very impressed
    by the size and type of system I had. He mentioned that whoever
    put it in did the right thing by over compensating. It now allows
    me to move in and fill the house with kids.
    
    
    BAL

    
    
      By the way, I have a friend who had a house inspection done on
    a chalet and the inspector told him not to buy the house because
    the septic system was inadequate for any additional rooms. The house
    had two bebrooms and John wanted to add two more in the basement.
    So there a case were to small is no good.
    
    BAL

    A septic tank can be no larger than the perc test indicates, and
    must be large enough in proportion to the number of bedrooms.  
    
    But if you have 3 bedrooms (and a septic for 3 bedrooms) with 13 people
    living there (sleeping in dens, living rooms, family rooms, lofts),
    guess what happens to the septic system?
    
    Elaine

    re: .59
    
    I'm not sure if you meant to smile.  In my neighborhood the houses
    cannot be larger than 3 bedrooms because of the septic system, because
    of the perc rate.  In fact, if a family has more than two adults
    and one child they are in trouble.
    
    I think what you're saying is if we could make the tank large enough
    (and maybe the leach field, too), we could put multi-family dwellings
    on our lots.  But we can't because the septic location is limited
    by nearby wetlands.  I was trying to point out that there is more
    to figuring the size of a septic system than the number of bedrooms
    in a house.  Unfortunately my neighbors and I don't have the luxury
    of having an oversized tank.  I'm waiting for the results of your
    checks.
    
    Elaine
    8-)
    

    I'm in the beginning stages of looking at lakefront land. Eventually
    I'd like to build a summer cottage. 
    
    I'm interested in a quarter acre lot on a pond.  There is currently
    a cottage on the property that hasn't been used for several years,
    and would need to be torn down (my opinion). 
                                               
    The lot is fairly level, rising gradually from the shore line.  At it's
    highest point, the land is perhaps 4 or 5 feet above current water
    level (which is higher in the Spring). I've been told by neighbors,
    that beneath the topsoil is sand/gravel (typical in the area). 
                                               
    My concern is that the land may not take a septic tank/leach field.
    system. On the listing sheet is SEWER: Unknown. 
                                               
    I've noticed that some other waterfront cottages have holding tanks
    -- I think around 750 gallons in size.  Is anyone familiar with
    these?  What are the pros and cons?        
                                               
    I spoke with a woman in the board of health office in town, and
    she said that the town discourages the use of holding tanks, and
    requires a hearing for approval.  Why would the town not like holding
    tanks?          
                                      
    I guess what I need is a basic lesson in septic systems, as applied
    to seasonal cottages, near water. Previous notes do not seem to
    cover this area, and have no mention of holding tanks. 
                
    Thanks for any info. 
                
    Joe         
                
                

    Maybe I can offer some advice having recently gone through this.
    We just put in a complete system, as there was a cesspool prior
    to this.  We are on water, and wanted to do something ASAP, so we
    wouldn't pollute the water we were swimming in!  Holding tanks hold
    1000-2000 gals. and need to be pumped out regularly.  They must
    have an alarm system on them (this is NH - I don't know about other
    areas) and the tank must be registered with the town and the disposal
    company.  When they go to dump the tank, the name and address must
    be on the list for the dumping station.  They are frowned upon -
    according to the engineer - because once in the ground and inspected
    people have been known to punch holes in the side - thus creating
    a cesspool and they don't have them pumped regularly.  We had to
    put in a chambered system with a pump-up chamber (up hill) so that
    the leach field is in the back (street-side) of the house.  After
    all we bought waterFRONT property!  (Family humor) 
    Chances are if the deed says nothing - there is nothing.  Depending
    on the location of the site and the grade of the hill would depend
    on the cost of the system.  I understand NH is more stringent than
    others.  We had to have plans drawn up - approved by the town and
    then the state.  The system was inspected 3X during construction
    by the town engineer.  Not all town engineers are empowered to do
    this, so the state would have to send someone down to inspect. 
    (Another delay, I forsee).
    
    Good luck, I hope I've helped.  
    
    Denise

<    I'm interested in a quarter acre lot on a pond.  There is currently
<    a cottage on the property that hasn't been used for several years,
<    and would need to be torn down (my opinion). 

	A side note:  Make sure you have a buildable lot, BEFORE you buy the 
	property.  Lot size is not really an issue, but proximaty to wetlands 
	may be a problem.  The existing building is grandfathered, but any 
	significant changes, would have to be approved.
                                               
<    I spoke with a woman in the board of health office in town, and
<    she said that the town discourages the use of holding tanks, and
<    requires a hearing for approval.  Why would the town not like holding
<    tanks?          
                                      
	All disposal plans have to be approved by the board of health.  The 
	simplest cases receive an ANR letter, if nothing out of the ordinary
	is required.  Othwerwise, a public hearing is required for a variance.
	In general holding tanks are not approved, because they are a high 
	maintanence system.  In your case you probably can argue that it 
	would be better then what currently exists, and other alternatives
	(hook into sever system, private treatment plant) would create 
	financial hardship.  This is how it works in Townsend, MA.

Brian
	P.S.  Please specify were you live, so people can provide more 
	acurate answers.  The laws, their enforcement, and interpretation
	varies from town to town, but are fairly uniform.   

      If  you  must  put a pump in your septic system then you must, but

    re: .1  how much did the engineered plans cost?
    
    	    how much for the installation?
    
    

< Note 2490.3 by POOL::HAMMOND "Charlie Hammond -- ZKO3-02/Y05 -- dtn 381-2684" >
                           -< Septic pumps are FUN >-

      If  you  must  put a pump in your septic system then you must, but

--> I have no idea where the rest of this reply went.  I'll try to re-enter it 
when I have time.  Sufice it to say that I advocate avoiding septic pumps if
at all possible.

    Re .2  If I can't put a septic system on the property, I don't intend
    to buy it.  
                
    I've spoken with a person at the town's board of health, and requested
    a copy of septic rules and regs.  I'll check these, and do some
    research in Mass. General Laws Chapter 5 (including updates) pertaining
    to sewage. I'll try to determine what the restrictions are on siting
    septic systems close to water, and wells (there's an artesian well on the
    property).  The corner of the lot farthest from the water and the
    well is uphill from the ideal building site.  If a septic system
    is even feasible, it would likely be here, and would likely require
    a septic pump.  I'd like to hear more about these (Re .5) 
                
    I've also requested a copy of the zoning by-laws.  I want to
    be sure that the lot is buildable (especially after tearing down the
    existing structure) and that all grandfathering won't be lost.  I don't
    want to end up with a useless (but pretty) lot. 
                
    In my conversation with the woman at the board of health, I learned
    that no more perc tests will be scheduled this year.  I don't know
    if they are all booked, if the proper season is passed, or if the
    town is using this as a blockage to development.               
                                                                   
    I need to do a perc test before I buy, yet can't do that until next
    year.  Is there another way to determine septic feasibility?  Can
    I hire a septic engineer to look at the property and offer his 
    professional opinion on it?  Can I do an unofficial perc test to
    see if I should even be spending my time looking at this property?
                                                                   
    Ideally, I'd like to make the septic feasibility determination 
    soon, as the property seems desireable, and the first person to
    determine that a septic system is possible and the lot is buildable,
    will likely buy it.  I'd like to be the first with the answer. 
                
    Any advice?                                                      
                
    Joe		
                           
    

re: .4 the plans were $400.00 and the state approval procedure cost $50.00
      (this is NH).  The installation was $6K.  We had bids from 6 to 11K,
      and choose the 2nd lowest.  We dug our own test pit, and tree
      stump removal was included in the 2nd bid. 

re: .1 Typical of cottage lots - we are on a slope and have a very small lot
(58'by 100').  The pump up was the only alternative - luckily it has an
alarm.  We didn't want to do it either for obvious reasons - one more
thing to break down/maintain, etc.  Financial hardship re: a holding tank does 
not hold water (in Salem anyway).

re: pumps - according to my engineer and the installer they're pretty state-of 
the-art now.  It's in a 500 gal chamber all by itself - so if something went
wrong we could just dig it up.  There is a float in the chamber and when the 
water hits the float the pump kicks in - it's not running all the time.

re: .5 - tearing down the structure means new construction (and new codes).
What's seems to be done alot in our area is one wall is saved - so you're 
modifiying.  I don't know much about that.

re: .5 - when we looked at property (on water) in MA  the septic and water
had to be 100' from one another.  I don't know if that was MA code or 
something the VA required.
  

Denise  

    re: .6
    
    Talk to the town building inspector.  The procedure if you own the
    land is to apply for a building permit to him/her.  Then if it doesn't
    pass zoning, he rejects the application and you go to the zoning
    board of appeals for a variance.  If it is near wetlands, he sends
    the request to the Conservation Commission so they can determine
    if the  Wetlands Protection Act applies, and if you need to deal
    with the DEQE.  If it does not have a valid perc test and septic
    plan, he rejects it and sends you to the Board of Health, the Town
    Health Agent (officer, whatever).
    
    My advice:  talk to each of these people before you buy.  If you
    are lucky and the Building Inspector is helpful, you may avoid the
    other people, but if you want to be sure, check with them all.
    
    The above regulations are for Mass.  Good luck.
    
    Elaine

	re: .8

	A note of caution.  Unlike the Building Inspector who has final 
	approval authority, the Board of Health, ZBA and Conservation 
	Commissions require majority or better approval by the board.  
	A single member can not promise approval of a plan without a 
	public hearing and vote by the board, especially prior to 
	purchasing the property.  You also left out the Historic Distric, 
	Planning Board and Watershed Association(if you have them:-).

    Re: .-1
    
    Second the caution.  I built a place on the water in Maine and found
    that rules/jurisdictions/etc totally changed at the magic number
    of 250' from the water.  Past that, no one cared much about anything.
    Inside it even the state got involved in some things.
    
    

    I am wondering if it makes sense (is possible) for us to have a well
    for outdoor watering only, I have no idea what is involved in having
    a well.
    
    Some background, two years ago when the foundation for our addition
    was dug we hit water and had to install drainage, we actually hit
    an underground spring.  Last September, when we dug the four foot
    holes for the deck supports we hit water at 4' in a couple of the
    holes and when it rained, and we had a lot of rain last September,
    the holes filled to the top.  So we seem to have water.  I also
    found out that 40 years ago the lot our house is built on was under
    water, the house is built on fill......
    
    So all this leads me to think that maybe we could put in a well
    for outdoor watering only.  I've called a few well places and have
    been told that what I want is a dug well.
    
    Question #1: What is a dug well?
    
    Can anyone quess the expense involved?  Will I have to have a holding
    tank or will I be able to pump directly from the well to the hose?
    
    I've called the town, Ashland Ma, but the health agent is on jury
    duty and will get back to me next week.  Part of the dilemma is
    we need to put in a new lawn, front and back.  We were going to
    do the front this fall but with the water ban we can only water
    from 6PM to Midnight so I'm concerned that we may be defeated prior
    to even beginning.  Now if we could put in a well maybe we'd be
    better off to wait for next spring and then use the well water to
    get the lawn going or at least we could use as much well water as
    possible and use town water if necessary to allow the well to
    replenish itself.
    
    Another consideration is that we pay the sewerage based on water
    consumption.  If we use 100 cubic feet of water at the cost of $25
    then we automatically pay $50 for that 100 cubic feet to go into
    the sewer and its not! (Same with my washer that goes to a dry well)
    So I'm paying for service I don't use and it bothers me!
    
    Am I crazy?

    
    
    	> Am I crazy?

    	No, it sounds like a good idea.  The only thing you'll want
    	to try and figure out is the total cost of installation, use,
    	and maintanance compared to the price of using the city water
    	and sewer.  I can understand how it would bother you to pay
    	for *not* using the sewer, but it might actually work out
    	cheaper to do so.  For instance, if the well goes dry after
    	one year.  Also, you should probably get the water tested
    	just in case someone (like a kid) happens to come along and
    	decide to take a drink out of the hose coming from the well.
    	It wouldn't hurt to know what's in it anyway.  Another thing
    	you'll have to consider is enclosing or encasing the well some-
    	how so that no one will accidentally fall in and either get
    	hurt or drown.  All these things will add up, so figure out
    	the usage you'll actually draw from it and whether it's cost
    	effective to do it.
     
    	> What is a dug well?
                           
    	It is simply that.  You'll most likely hire someone with a
    	backhoe, and they'll just dig until they get deep enough
    	to hit water, and then some, so you'll have some kind of res-
    	serve.  Then you'll have to line the walls somehow so they
    	don't cave in, cover it, and install the plumbing.
    
    	> ...guess at the expense involved.
    
    	You can figure on about $85-$90 per hour for the backhoe, not
    	including the transportation fee, usually about $120, just to
    	dig the hole.  Lining and structure would depend on your tastes,
    	and wht type style well structure you want to have.  Plumbing
    	may not be too bad, especially if a sump pump or something sim-
    	ilar would give you enough water pressure to do what you want.
    	Then there's electricity too, but that could be as simple as
    	an extension cord in the case of the sump pump if you don't
    	mind dragging the cord in and out all the time.
    
    	I think there's some flexibility in cost, dependent upon the
    	complexity and asthetic quality of the well that you have in
    	mind.
    

      
     I am now drilling a well in Fitchberg Mass. for my house. I am
    down to 700 ft at $7.50 a foot. The avarage well in my area is 340
    ft.  
    
     Moral of the story,You can't plan the well cost very accuratly.
    
     Local code states the well must be 100ft from the septic system.
    
    		Wayne

    A neighbor of mine in NJ was digging a well by hand. He started
    with a 4 ft diameter drainage pipe placed on end. As he dug the
    pipe settled into the hole. When the upper end was even with the
    ground he added another section. When we moved to Mass he was down
    about 20 ft. Sure was scarry, no way would I get in there and dig.
    
    _Bill

    
    Re: .8
    
    	What is the neighbor going to do when he hits water and has
    to go lower to get a reliable supply?  Put on scuba gear?  :-)
    
    							-c

>        A neighbor of mine in NJ was digging a well by hand. He started
>    with a 4 ft diameter drainage pipe placed on end. As he dug the
>    pipe settled into the hole. When the upper end was even with the
>    ground he added another section. When we moved to Mass he was down
>    about 20 ft. Sure was scarry, no way would I get in there and dig.

    Did he dig from inside the pipe or outside?  How many years has
    he been doing this?
    

    Health authority people *hate* dug wells, because they are so
    susceptible to contamination.  What you're really looking for
    though, is a very small diameter, deep pond that you can water 
    your lawn from! :-)  The word "well" tends to imply "drinking
    water" and other such things, and you don't need all that.
    You basically need a hole in the ground.  Get a guy with a
    backhoe to dig a hole to bury about 12' of large-diameter
    concrete sewer pipe on end; that ought to give you enough
    depth.  From your description, maybe 8' would be enough.
    You may need to have holes in the sides of the pipe
    so the water can get in easily; I think there's concrete
    pipe available that is made with holes.  It would probably
    help to put crushed rock around the pipe too.  But you're still
    talking not big bucks.  $500 for everything???
    The idea of putting a submersible pump into it sounds like the 
    cheapest, simplest way to go.  Put the pump into the well in 
    the spring with a hose attached to it, take it out in the fall.  
    Run an extension cord when you want to use it.  Cheap.
    
    Now, whether you could get away with doing things that way, I
    don't know.  The Powers That Be might decide that since it's a
    "well" it has to meet all the requirements of potable water,
    which would increase your costs dramatically, probably to the
    point of being more than the idea is worth.

    Back in Minnesota you can buy a well 'point' in any good hardware
    store.  You drive it with a steel fence post driver.  In the old
    neighborhood I lived in, the water table was very near the surface
    as described here.  It was very common to cut a small hole in the
    basement floor, drive a point down about 6-10 ft, attach appropriate
    plumbing to outdour spigots, and then thumb your nose at the city water
    meter. 
    
    Only bad point was that the surface water was very high in iron,
    and turned sidewalks, foundations, sidings, etc red if you sprayed
    it long enough.  Didn't bothr the grass any tho.
       
    -dj-

    Contacted a well "digger" from Clinton that does this type of "dug
    well".  The well is not actually dug, he drills with an auger, he
    can go down to a depth of 30'.  His estimate on digging the well
    was ~$650.00, with a holding tank and pump he thought it could go
    as high as $1200 - $1500 depending on what type of fixturing was
    used, assuming that you needed a holding tank etc.  By the way the
    hole he drills is only 3" in diameter.  You do not have to commit
    to actually putting in a well, he will come to the property, drill
    test holes to see if he can actually get water, and test the amount
    of water, the recoverable rate of the well etc. working on an hourly
    basis at a rate of $35.00/hr.
    
    Now he had some comments about the feasibility of actually hitting
    water.  One point he made was that the ground water we see may be
    the result of clay in the soil - we do have a lot of clay in our
    soil - so that there really may not be water to be had but just a
    bit of surface water due to the clay content of the soil.  Good
    point.  Available water may also be very seasonal, and may not be
    there when hit with a drought.  He also brought up the point of
    payback for the investment etc.  He thought that as long as we could
    water at sometime during the day that a lawn would survive even
    if it was from 6PM to Midnight.
    
    All in all the fellow was very pleasant and helpful.
    
    Now I still have to hear what the town would require.......would
    the well have to meet the normal well requirements etc.  The health
    agent isn't in this week so the jury is out on that one. (Acutally
    he is on jury duty!)
    

       I have a new septic question:

       We had our septic system pumped out recently, and we found out that the
       back baffle, which is in place to prevent floating solid waste from going
       into the leach fields, had fallen down to the bottom of the tank.  (we
       sound see it down there leaning against the back side of the tank.)

       We've been told that we can fix the problem by installing a 
       SANITARY TEE into the drain hole, and this will have the same effect
       as replacing the baffle.


       My questions are:

       1.  What, exactly is a sanitary tee?

       2.  Do you septic experts agree that this will solve the problem?

       3.  How should the sanitary tee be installed?


Thanks

Steve Johnson

   
      

    I had the same thing happen to our tank.  The fix was to replace
    the inspection port cover that had the baffle on it.  I was told
    to call Rila Precast Concrete Poducts in Brentwood NH
    (603)772-5301/4301.  They had the cover I needed and it was FREE...
    How 'bout dem apples???  Brentwood is ~15 miles east of Manchester
    off Rt. 101.
    
    Give them a call if you're close to the area.
                                    
    Al Goetz

I am in the process of buying some land in Maine.  The sale is contingent
on passing a soil test.  Is the soil test the same as a perc test?  If the
soil test fails, what does that mean to me?  Expensive septic system?

		Dave

    
    	As far as NH goes, I believe you are referring to a test pit.
    Is the land going through subdivision?  In NH when subdividing land,
    it must be perc tested and have test pits dug to determine soil
    content/consistency, and find out if there is any ledge around.
    I was told by someone in the business that any land (in NH) that
    had less than 3 feet of natural cover (soil), was considered un-
    buildable.  Of course, then there are the other 101 exemptions
    that let you build there anyway, like above ground septics.  It's
    possible ME. has the same type regulations.

    
    
    	The State of Maine has become very strict with perc testing,
    	especially if you are near any water (lake, rivers or ocean).
    	You cannot get a building permit on any land if the existing
    	property cannot pass the perc test.  I'm not sure on the
    	perc test requirements (depth of hole and how long for the water
    	to drain).  They will not allow a build up leach field.
    
    	Try asking someone in the Maine notesfile. 
                                                         

< Note 1365.6 by SMURF::WALLACE "Life's a beach, then you dive!" >

>    Is the land going through subdivision?

No, but we do plan to build on it.

re: .7

Thanks, I'll check in the Maine notes conference.

		Dave

I just spoke with the realty agent concerning the soil test on the land
we're considering.  The soil engineer told him that an above ground system
would be no problem.  I haven't been able to reach the engineer yet, but
I would like to find out if anyone is familiar with above ground systems.
Does an above ground system mean that the soil test failed?  I'd like to
have a better idea what I'm talking about when I reach the soil engineer.

		Dave

    
    	Well, I can tell you how it works in NH.  There are two major
    considerations for septic systems.  High water table, and ledge.
    In NH, septic systems are required to be 8 feet above ledge and
    4 feet above the natural high water level in the area it is being
    installed.  So for instance, if you have land where there is 3 feet
    of soil to ledge and the water table is 9 inches below the surface,
    then you *have* to get an above ground septic.  They bring in fill,
    and raise the level to acceptable limits.  In this case 5 feet of
    fill will put the septic 8 feet above the ledge, and well over the
    4 foot minimum for the water table.  The considerations is the
    amount of soil/fill to filter the waste from the leach field.  The
    inspector told me that 4 feet of soil/fill will filter the leach-
    field waste enough, so that it could be consumed by an adult, but
    would probably make a child sick.  (ok fess up.  How many of you
    out there have four foot wells?)
    
    Soil test failed?  Well in the sense that the above ground systems
    cost more, yes.  An above ground system on your land may be no
    problem, but the question is; at what cost?  You may want to have
    then give you some estimates on the cost of putting such a system
    in.  I suspect your looking at anywhere from 8K to 15k.

================================================================================
Note xxxx.0                septic/foundation w/o house                   1 reply
HPSCAD::DANCONA                                      13 lines  27-SEP-1988 08:02
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    anyone know of any problems with installing a septic system in the
    ground prior to this winter, without having a house built until next 
    summer. It will be a 1000 gal system with a distr box and 50' x 20'
    leach field. I'm wondering whether the ground freezing and thawing
    will cause a problem. building permit expires in march, and i would
    like to have the septic in when i go to renew it.
    
    i guess while we are at it  would putting a crawl space foundation
    in be a problem this winter if no house was there ??
    
================================================================================
Note xxxx.1                septic/foundation w/o house                    1 of 1
HPSTEK::EKOKERNAK                                     6 lines  27-SEP-1988 08:54
                                -< I wouldn't >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The major problem is that once it's in, NO heavy equipment can drive
    over the it.  If that happens, pipes are sure to be crushed.  Most
    people put the septic in last, just before landscaping.
    
    Elaine
    
    

    This is a long tale but in it you may find things to consider.
    
    We live on a 10K square foot water front lot in N.H. Two years after
    we bought the house a dry well "surfaced" (started to leak directly
    on to the surface). It required close to $15,000, 20 months, a lawyer,
    an engineer, three town officals, and three changes in the state
    water pollution control board before we had fixed this problem.
    Things that you may want to check and items that you may want to
    consider:
    
        1: Town minimum lot size requirement for a septic system.
    Even though the house we bought was grandfather the requirement
    to conform for a building permit was still enforced. The minimum
    lot size was 3/4 acre since we didn't have that much space we had
    to get waiver.
    
    	2: Minimum distance from surronding wells.
    In New Hampsire and part of the septic must be at least 75feet
    (horizontallly) from any well. Since we are surrounded by 1/4
    acre lots we had to get releases from two neighbors. Further
    the 75' limit is a state requirement some towns require more
    (ours required 100 ft. yet another waiver)
    
       3: In New Hampshire no part of your septic may be within
    75' of a body of water. On a lot the size of ours the various
    tanks had to be within this limit so we required another waiver
    
       4: What is the zoning in the area? Our street was rezoned to
    be seasonal (our house is grandfathered) the reason for the zoning
    was in part to allow additional resrictions to be placed on the
    septic systems (after all it's not like you live there year round!).
    It also provides the town a way to prevent you from increasing the
    floor space of the house or converting it to year round use.
    
       5: Permits and plans are not binding on the town (or state).
    Our plan indicated that it would use a poly septic tank. This
    was approved early in the paperwork cycle. Two days (17 months
    later) after we broke ground the building inspector said "this
    town requires steel reenforced septic tanks". Our choices was sue the
    town (we would not have a working septic nor was the contractor
    interested in this idea) or go along. This required state approval
    since we were changing the system. Oh yes we had already PAID FOR
    the poly tank.
    
        6: Not only is the approval cycle long but you may have to baby
    sit it all along. We ended up paying the engineer to make weekly
    (or bi-weekly) trips to concord to get the state personel to move
    forward on the paperwork or to tell us what the latest hold up was.
    They misplaced our paperwork for weeks at a time.
    
        7: Holding tanks can be expensive! The problem here is that
    treatment costs are extremely variable. The quotes for treating
    (under an annual contract) the average waste from a family of
    four including trucking and pumping ran from $500 - $700 per MONTH!
    These costs are subject to inflation and the whim of the treatment
    facility. If your town "buys" treatment services from another town
    the rates to treat your sewage can be staggering! 
    
        8. While you don't have a conforming septic system the health
    officer of the town usually pulls your occupancy permit. If you
    are already living in the house the town must go to court to get
    you out. However with out the occupancy permit you can't borrow
    on the house because it can't be sold unless the buyer leaves it
    vacant. Further you may find that you are constantly threatened
    with litigation. 
    
        9: The state and town officals are not there to help YOU! 
    The whole issue of protection of wet lands and bodies of water has
    become a very hot potato in various levels of government, with a
    variety of suits being filed in state and federal court all throughout
    new england. In many cases the states and towns turned their collective
    backs on what was being built prior to the late seventies. Then
    rather than spend money (gasp that horrible word) to fix the results
    many laws were passed that effectively made the existing systems illegal.
    These illegal systems were "grandfathered". They could be used in
    their current form but NOT REPAIRED! Any repair or alteration of
    the system in anyway required that the system be bought into full
    conformance with ALL existing state and local requirements.
    This did not fix the problems but the various offical could point
    to the results of their "awareness of the problem". Now it has all
    come home to roost and everyone is running scared. The only "politcally
    safe" decision is to deny ANY attempt to put a "non-water tight solution"
    i.e. holding tanks, on a water front lot with lmitations of set back
    and size. So unless you really squeeze them the state and town 
    attempt to force you to that "solution". Realize that this is a
    poltical process so engineering realities and cost are not considered.
    Be prepared to be treated as an unclean scumbag by these "holders
    of the public trust", after all you own the problem its not their
    responsibility!
    
    10: Some towns make life hard on septic (and probably other)
    contractors. We only had one estimate! Why? Because out of the dozen
    septic installers that I contacted only ONE would even come and
    look at the problem! One of the officals in our town has quite
    a relationship with the septic contractors. This coupled with the
    requirement to deal with the state and all the waviers caused them
    to be uninterested in our problem (more or less at ANY price). 
    
    Summary: 
    
          Before you buy a lake front property in new england get a
    good lawyer. Verify exactly the zoning and other requirements to
    which NEW building on that lot must conform. Then record everything
    and in the event of trouble batten down the hatches and ride it
    out!

    No, a Sanitary Tee is not the same as a baffle.  A Baffle is a flap
    which stops the flow from 1 direction but permits flow in the other
    direction.  A Sanitary Tee is a T shaped connector.  Some have baffles
    in them but most do not.  I fail to see how a T connector would
    stop back flow from the septic tank into the house.  If the T had
    a baffle then it might stop flow but where would the third leg of the
    connector send the contents of your septic system???  I am not sure
    I want to know but I sure you would if you install one.

    Hi,
    
    I don't know if this is the right place to ask about this, but
    I couldn't think of any other conference it would be relevant 
    to... I was reading an article in Country Journal about envir-
    onmentally sound schools and one of the items mentioned in the
    'why don't we use' column was composting toilets. I bought a
    place 3 years ago that had a composting toilet that hadn't
    been plugged in for awhile, and without going into details I
    was totally turned off of the idea. I am planning to have a
    septic system put in this spring/summer and am now rethinking
    the sanity of this thanks to the article I read. Do anyone
    out there know anything about composting toilets, like who
    manufactures them, prices, new technologies, and how towns/
    states building codes react to them. If I could save $6,000
    (I already have a gray water system, so that's not a problem),
    not contribute to further polluting of our planet and be satisfied
    with the looks and performance of a composting toilet....why not
    get one???   
    
    Anyone have any advice/knowlege to offer?
    
    Sue

>                            -< composting toilet vs septic >-

    
    Start by asking your building inspector about it, and most likely
    you won't have to worry about whether it's feasible.  
    Very few places will allow them.
    

    
    Plugged in?  I guess there must be a different composting system
    from the type I'm thinking of.
    
    The only composting system I'm familiar with consists of a LARGE sloped
    "bin" in your basement which relies on the "glacier effect" as well
    as the introduction of other organic wastes (kitchen garbage, etc)
    to complete the cycle. Waste moves slowly down hill and is attacked
    by micro-organisms until it becomes what they call "black earth"
    which is essentially mega-rich soil which you shovel a few buckets
    out every few months. 
    
    The only systems I have seen were totally passive (no fuel needs
    unless you opted for a duct fan in the venting system, or a 
    none-too-popular meshing blade system that supposedly sped up the
    compost process by slashing the waste to bits as it was introduced).
    
    I used to have brochures that I received from an alternate energy
    group in the gov't (interesting side effect of this type of composter
    is that the composting process generates a considerable amount of
    heat that dissipates into the house) and the company being recommended
    was a Scandinavian company.
    
                                  			* MAC *

        There's one by the name of Cleavous Moultron or something like
    that. It can be found in the back of most organic gardening magazines.
    As a previous noter mentioned they're not legal in most places.
    Mostly due to some codes not being kept upto date. Supposedly you
    start shoveling out clean sterile compost two and a half years after
    the first flush

    
    That's it! Boy did that jog my memory. The system I used to have
    brochures on (as I described in .2) was Cleavus Moultrum (or
    something like that) and I *did* first find it in an issue of
    Mother Earth News. 
    
    Zoning laws are meant to be swayed! A little push with some serious
    documentation is often all that is required. Nothing ventured, nothing
    gained.
    
    							* MAC *

    How do these things cope with the odor created by the composting
    process? I put my leaves and grass clippings in a bin in the back
    yard, and that's creates a slight odor on occasion. I can imagine
    what it would be like when you start adding human waste, etc to
    the cycle!
    
    John

    They are vented thru the roof(I beleive). I remember reading a story
    years ago about a Cleavous Moultrum that someone "inherited". They
    had to almost blast the stuff out of there as it didn't work-or
    wasn't used properly. Ugh! another thought I'd have is it's effect
    on the resale value of the property- I think it would be a detriment
    in most cases. Maybe an incerating toilet is a better alternative,but
    I've never heard/read on how effective they are.
    
    Ed

    
    I stumbled (quite accidently, believe it or not) on a set
    of the CLIVUS MULTRUM brochures I sent away for years ago.
    At that time, the nearest distributor was:
    
    			CLIVUS MULTRUM USA, Inc
    			14A Eliot Street
    			Cambridge, Mass 02138
    			(617)491-5820
    
    The brochures consist of specs and a long question and answer
    brochure (too long to type in here). Among other questions, it
    answers one brought up earlier: What about the neighbors? They
    claim that the "aerobic decompositon" generates mostly carbon
    dioxide and moisture and the system actually generates LESS 
    odor than standard plumbing vents. 
    
    The system ranged in price (at that time) from $1500-1700 depending
    on options.
    
    							* MAC *

    
    
    		Hi!
    		I had a composting toilet built for my last home here
    in Maine.  It was cement blocks in construction with a 6" plastic
    vent pipe and rotating fan on the roof.  The whole structure was
    in the cellar with a nice oak toilet enclosure in the main floor
    bath room.  Inside the Cement block structure was a set of plastic
    (1 1/2") piping to form a slanted grid.  On this grid was laid
    fine wire mesh (I think the mesh was 1/2" square holes?).  The
    was a fairly large clean out down at the bottom of the slanted
    grid.  This toilet was a 'two seater'.  We would use onw seat for
    6 months then the other for six months.  Just before switching we
    would clean out the side to be used.
    Observation:
    	A bunch of orage peels put in every once in awhile would
    completely eliminate any odor and in fact it was a pleasant smell.
        A johson & johnson pest strip (the wide yellow ones) hung under
    the seat support eliminated any small flies/fleas/whatever.
    	The temperature of the room where the cement enclosure is *MUST*
    stay above about 65 degrees or the thing will not work!!!  Very
    important.
    	one should also design in a fluid overflow outlet.  In our case
    a piece of clear plastic hose (like used for cow milking machines?)
    thet was buried, went thru the foundation wall and out to a 'dry
    well'.  The urine is the hardest to get rid of in a composting toilet
    so it does tend to accumulate.  The air vent on the roof does help
    with the evaporation.
    	There was no odor outside at all.
    	The cleaning out process while phsychologically distasteful
    was not a problem at all.  The unit does decompose the material
    to such an extent that smell is not a problem and the residue looks
    like rich loom.
    
    	Hope all this helps.  You will most likely have a problem down
    there with getting a permit.  Not so up here.
    
    Gordon ripley...
    

    -<yeeeccchh>- is just the term for it, but Gordon did say that it was
    "psychologically distasteful."  Remember, lots of people can't just
    flush the toilet and forget about it - there's a big tank sitting out
    under that lawn just waiting to be pumped in a year or two.... and
    if you don't pump it, it's gonna come in your house and get you! 
    
    When I bought my present house, I had the septic tank pumped early on.
    (The truck had "Cucka Sucka" painted on that plastic bug shield in
    front.)  I watched while the fellow went about his business, and
    remarked, "I'm glad it's windy ... "  He looked at me and said, "I hate
    this GD job."  I've never seen a more sincere look of "psychological
    distaste." 

    
    Lots of opinions out here on pump_your_system don't_pump_your_system,
    but nothing on inspecting your system. I know where the cover is, and I
    know I can open it, does anybody know how to tell if your tank is
    working correctly ?  I don't have any problems, but I do send everthing
    to the tank, and all these notes in here about sludge buildup and
    ruining leach fields got me thinking that maybe there is a sludge
    monster lurking in my yard ... Any DIY inspectors in the crowd ? 

    The MA DEQE puts out a flyer that discusses septic systems, including
    how to inspect them.
    
    Basically, you have to do two things, once the cover is off.  First,
    use a long stick to measure the sludge and scum (lower layer and
    upper layer, resp.).  Neither one should be more than 25% of the
    total depth, so that the middle liquid layer is at least 50% of
    the depth.  Second, flush the toilets while the cover is off, and
    make sure that liquid flows in and out of the tank without clogging.
    
    (When we had this done, we had perfect, coincidental timing.  The
    building inspector just happened to be testing the toilets at the time
    the septic tank guy was ready to check for flow.) 
    
       Gary
    
    PS I've never tried this, and I'm not going to until I figure out
    what to do with the stick after removing it from the tank.

    
    Do not read this if you are eating your lunch.
    
    I have done these measurements, just out of curiosity, when I opened my
    tank prior to having it pumped.  The "Sludge" is reluctant to adhere to
    a wooden stick.  I found it necessary to wrap some rag around the stick
    in order to get a meaningful reading.  The smell of the whole operation
    is much less than you would expect.  Discard the stick after use.

    The tank for  my  house is 1200 gal, concrete, with partitions, and had
    not been pumped for at least 7 years.
    
    I am sure it is impossible to do a  good  cleanout  job if you have the
    tank  pumped  out  through the 6" diameter inspection ports.   If  your
    septic guy does it this way, I think you are getting  very  poor  value
    for  your money.  The "sludge" is much too viscous to move  inside  the
    tank.    Additionally,  there are baffles in the lower half (and in the
    upper half)  of  the  tank  preventing  sludge migration.  I feel it is
    ESSENTIAL to remove  both  of  the  2'  by 4' access covers to pump the
    tank.  This means  you  have  to  remove  the  dirt from the top of the
    entire tank.  Mine was only 2' down, fortunately.
    
    The guy who pumped my tank ( $75) also washed the inside  down  with  a
    garden hose.
    
    Based  on the "fullness" of my tank, I do not feel it is  necessary  to
    pump  more than about every 5 years.  In my opinion, pumping every year
    is gross overkill IF the tank is being emptied completely each time.
    
    This is a cross-section of my tank, showing all the baffles which  make
    cleanout difficult.  More or less to scale.
    
    
    -------------------------------------------------------ground level
    
                    
           _o_______{-----}_____________{------}______o__  
           |  |                 |                  |    |
    ======="  |                 |                  |    "=====
    "IN"   |  |                 |                  |    |  "OUT"
           |                    |                       |     
           |                    |                       |    
           |       |                        |           |     
           |       |                        |           |     
           |       |                        |           |     
           |       |                        |           |     
           |_______|________________________|___________|
    
     {----} is 2' by 4' cover, 4' deep into the screen.
    
      o is 6" inspection port, through which pumping is ineffective.
    
    === is inlet and outlet pipes
    
     |
     | is baffles and tank sides.  

    Happy decomposing,
    
    gjd
    

    
    Re:  -1  HPSTEK::Dvorak 
    
    This is sort of a digression - but I must ask the question.   $75 to
    pump your septic tank!!!!! Where is is that you live?  I just called 
    1/2 dozen places in the Acton/Concord/Billerica, MA area and all but 1 
    was $175 for up to a 1000 gal tank.  The price jumped about $50 in the
    last 6 months.  I've had my tank pumped several times in the last
    year (we're in the midst of having a whole new system put in) and
    the price has gone up about $75 in this time.  I guess it's getting
    real expensive for these companies to dump the ...stuff.  Anyway,
    did you miss putting a 1 in front of the $75?  Do you live in Mass?
    
    Kathy

    Yes it was $75, not $175.  I did at the time get some $150 quotes.
    
    I live just north of Worcester.  I did call around a bit, and I think I
    ended up using Holden Sanitation  Co.    829  3793.  ( I can't find the
    bill just at the moment).   Note that I did uncover the tank myself ( a
    5 foot by 9 foot area 1 foot deep) , and I made sure I told that to the
    people I called.  (I used the phrase  "it's  all  dug  up",  The septic
    people find this easy to understand ;^) ) I did some mild bargining.  I
    did find prices varied significantly.  This was all done last summer, I
    should add.

    Just  to  digress further, I suggest you do  the  uncovering  yourself,
    because you will be sure to uncover all of  the  access  ports, whereas
    the septic people may not.  I also strongly suggest  you  be  there  to
    supervise  the  operation,  because if you are not you have no  way  of
    knowing  how  thoroughly the job was done.  When it is all  done,  that
    tank should be *EMPTY*, and you can see the cement bottom.

    If you  have  been  using  the  same  company all this time they may be
    jacking the rate on you, figuring you are not calling around to compare
    prices.

    
    Re: prices
    
    Digging up the cover yourself can save $25-50. Also, there are sludge
    haulers that take their sludge to a waste treatment plant, where they
    are charged by the gallon. Then there are those unscrupulous haulers
    that blow the sludge off into a field. It's up to you if you want to
    ensure that the waste is taken care of properly, and pay for that piece
    of mind.
    
    Re: tank pumping
    
    How often you pump depends so much on how old the system is, if it was
    sized properly, and how well it was maintained. My system is a little
    over 30 years old and is hanging in there, but it is nearing the end of
    it's life. I have to pump every other year, or I get overflow.
    
    CdH
    

    I second what was said in .52.  Be there to watch, and by all measn,
    if you can, do the digging yourself.  I had my tanks pumped back
    in DEC 87, and the cost was $85, plus 4 cents a gallon to be processed.
    Sudbury and Wayland have a processing facility, so you get a bill
    from the town.  The interesting thing was that the pumper's charge
    was something like $15 per foot if they had to dig to get to
    the cover.  In my case one tank was one foot down, but the other
    was almost two feet down.  That can add up real fast.
    
    As a side note, the house I bought has an interesting setup.  There
    are two 600 gallon tanks.  One tank receives from the baths, and the 
    other recieves from the kitchen sink and laundry room.  I guess
    the idea here is that you don't over load the "digesting" tank with
    a lot of soapy/chlorinated water from the laundry.  
    
    	Ken

    I live in Westford, Mass and used Greenwood Pumping to cleanout
    my 1200 gallon tank last September. He did an excellent job. By
    the way, I did the digging and exposed the top covers to save the
    additional $25 charge. Total cost was $90 which included pumping,
    ( There was alot of solid ), cleaning, inspection and removal.
    
                                             Bill

 Re 270.53           
    
*    Also, there  are  sludge  haulers  that  take  their  sludge to a waste
*    treatment plant, where  they are charged by the gallon.  Then there are
*    those unscrupulous haulers that blow the sludge off into a field.  It's
*    up to you if you  want  to  ensure  that  the  waste  is  taken care of
*    properly, and pay for that piece of mind.
    
    I find your comment a bit confusing. Are you saying that:
    
    1) The integrity of a hauler is determined by his price, and
    
    2) The  haulers who charge the most are the most honest, while ones who
    charge less are dishonest, and
    
    3) In order  to  be morally responsible a homeowner should use the more
    expensive haulers?

    I'd be grateful if you could clarify.    
    
Thanking you in advance,
    
    gjd

    
    I inferred nothing of the sort. My point was, that you should ask the
    hauler where it is going. If you are in an area that has a waste
    treatment plant, and they don't mention it, or charge for it, then
    maybe they aren't taking it there.
    
    CdH
    

    (Mr. Moderator, if this topic is covered elsewhere, do your job,
    I couldn't find any reference.)

    I have a unique problem that I will gladly give away - I had 
    my land plowed (as in farm tractor plowing) and I now know where
    my leaching field is located.
    
    The land was plowed about 40 or so feet from my septic tank and
    when I went to inspect the work, I discovered accumulation of 
    septic water in the forrows left buy the plow; apparently the 
    plow went through a portion of my leaching field. There is no
    problem in the house or with the septic tank - the question is
    what can I do about it ?
    
    My thoughts are centered around pick and shovel work to try and
    isolate the fault in the event that the plow actually broke one
    of the leaching distribution pipes. In anticipation of the next
    question, the plow depth was probably no deeper than 8-12" and I
    don't know how deep my lines are. I am planning on digging a 
    small trench across what I believe to be the leaching distribution
    area, upstream from the apparent leak to make my attack from there.
    
    Help!!!!!!

    

	This is the only topic with keyword SEWAGE with any mention of
	distribution boxes, so I'll ask here...

	The house we just bought was hooked up to town sewer last August
	(half the lawn torn up in the process). In the back of the lot
	(away from the torn up area) there's a hole covered with a cement
	slab (now broken), lined with concrete blocks, with a pipe in
	the side, which we're told is a distribution box for the old
	septic system. What is (was) the function of the distribution
	box? Is there any reason not to fill it in?

	Mike

    
    The D box usually connects the septic tank to the leach field. I would
    guess you could fill it in if you're now on town sewer.
    
    CdH
    
    

    If its got only one pipe going into it, I doubt it was a D box. The
    distribution box takes the liquid outflow from the septic tank (1 pipe
    in) and divides it to the leach field pipes (1 or more pipes out). The
    D box in my previous house was not too big and maybe 10-12" deep. You
    don't say how large the box you found was. A D box is solid except for
    the pipes coming AND going.
    
    If the item you have is much larger and a lot deeper, perhaps it is a
    dry well that was used for waste water from the washing machine (which
    isn't too good for a septic system). We need a bit more info on your
    block "whatever" to properly identify it. If it has only one pipe, you
    should be able to roughly trace the direction the pape takes back into
    the house and see where it went.
    
    Eric

	I'll take a closer look & some measurements when I get home, but
	here's a fuller description: It's maybe two feet deep, 1� by
	3 feet. I just recall one pipe in, coming in at right angles to
	the house (i.e., the box is maybe 50 feet to the west of the
	house, and the pipe is on the north side). The area dug out for
	the town sewer is the full length of the north side of the house,
	wrapping around the west side slightly. To the north of the
	box is the bulk of the yard (including a couple of gardens), nothing
	else particularly interesting. Oh, except I almost forgot, there
	are a couple of storm drains (at least, that's what I think they
	are), one on the west edge of the property towards the NW corner,
	the other across from it at the east edge of the lawn (near the road).
	Maybe this is just a different variety of storm drain? I really
	don't think so, but I'll definitely hold off filling it till I'm
	sure...

	Is JOET:: up to VMS V5.1 and Notes V2.0? Maybe I could draw a map
	with DECpaint and post it:-)...

	Mike

    From the description (especially only 1 pipe to it), whatever the
    box is, it doesn't sound like a D box. The distance from the house also
    sounds strange (usually the D Box is only a few feet from the tank
    which is fairly close to the house). It the "box" solid or perforated?
    
    Eric

	Taking a closer look: It's a little less than 2 feet deep, about
	16"x33". The bottom is mud and last night had a couple of inches
	of water over it. I was able to stick a not-very-sturdy stick
	about six inches deep before encountering much resistance. Took 
	a whiff of the stick - no noxious smells. The end of the pipe
	is covered with a wire cage. The walls are concrete blocks (and
	now that I've screwed things up by breaking the cover, the top
	blocks are starting to tumble in).

	Looking more carefully at the layout, the box is maybe 30-40
	feet NW of the house (very rough guess, I'm not a good judge
	of distance) and the pipe is on the north side of the box, so
	it's definitely going away from the house. Another 30 or so
	feet to the NW is what I identified as a storm drain - this has
	a three-foot-square cover (not movable), the bottom of which is
	even with the top of the ground on three sides, on the west side
	the ground slopes down underneath, and there are flat rocks set
	in the ground, so it seems clearly to be for drainage. Inside
	I could see a wire cage like that around the pipe in the "D box"
	but I didn't see a pipe (didn't bring my flashlight along).
	Overall, except for its size it looked similar to by "D box".

	So, it's looking more like rather than being part of the now-defunct
	septic system, this thing is involved with draining the property,
	which discourages my plans to fill it in. For what it's worth,
	the land is lower than the surrounding property but does seem to
	drain well (I saw no flooding problems in Tuesday's heavy rain,
	except for a large puddle where I had done some serious digging
	before planting grass). Any alternative interpretations?

	Mike

    How about a dry well for the rain gutters on your eaves?
    
    How about a dry well for the drain in your garage?
    
    As you said, perhaps a catch basin for draining your yard.  This
    sounds reasonable since the screen on a pipe would normally be at
    the inlet end - unless they are trying to keep rodents, etc. out
    of the outflow end of the pipe.
    
    Could be a dry well for a sump pump.
    

    From the description, it does sound like some sort of dry well. If you
    can, try to trace the pipe back. Maybe its a drywell for the washer.
    
    Eric

	It seems kind of far from the house and garage to have anything to
	do with gutters or the garage drain (the garage is south of the hole,
	the opposite side from the pipe), or a sump pump (no sign of one in
	the basement). There's never been a washer in the house (well, we've
	got one, but we haven't installed the hookups yet). I guess we'll
	have to ask the neighborhood plumber to take a look, or some
	other "expert" who might know, or check things out at town hall and
	see if it appears in any records (at least the storm drains should,
	right?). What town department would that be in a town with no
	public works department (Pepperell, MA, specifically)? Planning?
	Health?

	Mike

    Your town may have on file a copy of the leach field plan. Go that
    route first.
    My HUNCH is that 8"-12" is not a problem.
    
    			herb

    You should be able to get an approx. depth of the D-box by knowing
    how far under the surface the septic tank cover is. The pipe coming
    from the house comes into the top of the tank on the other side
    the pipe going to the D-box is about 6" below that. So if the cover
    is say 12" below the surface the pipe to the d-box should be approx.
    18". then everything from there is pitched down. You may have just
    hit the top of the stone of the leach field.

    I appreciate the input, I will check with the Township office for
    old records and hope the installer followed the plan. In the mean-
    time I am curious why my septic water is rising to the surface
    in this plowed area. Is is because of poor drainage underneath and
    I am providing an outlet, or in the worst case could my drainage
    pipes be that close to the surface that the plow actually damaged
    them??
    
    If they were within 12 inches of the surface would I have freeze-up
    in the Winter; temps drop to -25F here for several weeks and the
    recommended depth for frost is 4 feet?
    
      

    I doubt freeze-ups would be a problem, because the water in the tank
    will be warmer than the outside (snow would always melt over the tank
    first. 
    
    Eric

	I went to the town hall, they said the highway department should
	have maps. Went to the highway department and was laughed at when
	I asked about maps of the storm drain system (guess there aren't
	any), but one guy offered to stop by and take a look. He wasn't
	positive, but thought it looked like drainage. Finally, we got
	through to a member of the former owner's family and he confirmed
	there is a drainage system under the yard, including the hole we
	were concerned about, and a drain from the frog pond. It seems to
	work pretty well (well, we haven't drained the pond yet, maybe
	next weekend:-) - despite the fact that our yard is lower than both
	the street and the neighboring yards, we had no puddling in the
	recent heavy rain, except one small area which had been dug up
	for the town sewage. At the height of the storm, I looked down
	the storm drain nearest the street, there was a strong current
	heading out to the road.

	So, I've replaced the blocks that had fallen out and put the largest
	piece of the cover back over the hole. Now all I need is a new
	cover...

	Thanks for all your help, Mike

    Thanks for the input so far; I have an additional question - while
    I am working on my leaching field, how do/can I divert the output
    from my septic/distribution tank(s). I can have it pumped, but this
    will not last long with 4 adults and 2 little children in the house.
    I would expect that diversion will be needed for several days to
    one week.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bernie

    I have just recently purchase some land around Worcester.
    I bought it without, I know I shouldn't have, a septic design/permit.
    The price of the property was adjusted for the lack of septic permit
    however.
    
    Now I'm in the middle of using a land engineer that is certified
    but am wondering anyone else could give me their experiences with
    how much the average spetic design costs.
    Just the minumum to moderately hard design costs would help.
    I hope I'm not paying too much now.
    
    Thanks

    My perk/septic design was done last fall it cost $100 civil eng.
    						     $100 backhoe oper.
    						      $75 septic permit
                               			     $400 septic design
    	
    My perk rate was 10 minutes, this is middle of the road for my town
    Oakham,MA. A friend just did his, its was 30 minutes the max allowed
    by his town.	My system installation cost $2600, his is estimated
    			at $15K.
    
    My well is 350 ft deep with a 5.5 gal/min flow, again about middle
    of the road. Cost ~ $2800. The well can be any where from 100' to
    800', then it's time to start over. This is for drilling only you
    still need a pump,trench and storeage tank. 
    
    This should give you a rough idea,
    
    /Jim
    
     

>    My perk rate was 10 minutes, this is middle of the road for my town
>    Oakham,MA. A friend just did his, its was 30 minutes the max allowed
>    by his town.	My system installation cost $2600, his is estimated
>    			at $15K.

I think the deep hole test will determine cost at least as much as 
will the perk test. My land is beautiful stratified sand and gravel 
and perked **under** 2 minutes. But, and this but haunts me every time
I look at my bank balance, the ground water was at 3.5' that spring.
The requirements were that the BOTTOM of the system be 4' above ground
water so my entire septic system is in fill. Fill approved by the
local board of health for septic systems cost me about $6.00 a yard. 
The whole system ran about $28K. I say about because I had one guy do 
all the site work,including driveway (>>400') and moving the top soil 
hither and thither and the price was somewhat more than that.

This spring, the local conservation commission and BOH upped the 
requirement to 7' above ground water, due to the dry spring. I would 
have had a mountain rather than a foothill.

John H.

> I think the deep hole test will determine cost at least as much as 
> will the perk test. 

More so, actually.  The perk test determines the size of the field - in square 
footage.  The water table or ledge determines the depth.  If you had a 30 
minute perk rate, and the water table and ledge were deep enough, your system 
would be very cheap because you would need no fill - just dig trenches and fill 
them with gravel.  

Paul

    	Earlier this month I needed to get "emergency" pumping
    of my septic tank, ie it was overflowing in the bathroom. I
    knew it was time for its every_other_year pumping, but put it
    off alittle too long. 2 years ago it cost $55 by Thompson Sewer
    og Windham. This year my wife called Roto-Man and it was $225,
    plus they ran a snake down the toilet to clean that plugged up
    line. Also, the guy said our system doesn't seem to be leaching
    properly and we'd need a new leach field. The house/system is
    26 years old and he told us that leach fields are generally only
    good for 18 years and we were lucky to last this long. They naturally
    offered their "acid treatment" for $600, but that would only be
    a temporary fix to cleaning the leach field. I've looked at other
    replies and it looks like maybe some Rid-X may be all that is
    needed, or at least try it to save $3K for a new field. 
    	What say the septic guru's, do I need a new leach field?

    We just moved into our house one year ago. The house is 26 years
    old plus. Our leaching fields were redone along with most of the 
    other neighbors, except one. Who is right beside us and who's fields
    or tanks??? are over flowing and coming into our yard. 
    We have a stream in the back yard that is flowing through a pipe 
    underground. During the rainy season, this pipe cannot handle the 
    load so the water flows on the surface. No biggy. I trenched it
    and it flows right by the house. This only happens during very heavy
    or long rains.
    
    These past few muggy days though, I've been getting this ugly smell
    from the corner of the yard, where the surface trench is, next to
    the neighbor who has not updates his system. There was a small amount
    of very smelly water just starting to flow in this trench, but only
    gets a few feet before it is absorbed by the ground. 
    
    I mentioned it to my other neighbor and he said " that's been going
    on for years now".
    
    These neighbors don't seem very social so I would not want to approach
    them about it, but I refuse to put up with this. I shouldn't have to
    take. 
    
    Has anyone else had a problem like this? How can this be delt with.
    I hate to be the only one who cares. Of course, I'm the only one
    who has to smell it because it flow out of his yard, into mine and
    into the ground.                         
    
    What now?
    
    

re                       <<< Note 832.76 by MED::D_SMITH >>>

     Immediately call your town Board of Health, and inform them of the
  situation.  I believe that they are violating some health code by letting
  sewage come to ground level.  They'll probably force you neighbors to
  correct the problem.

    Steve

re: .75 "do I need a new leach field?"

$225 sounds high, even including the toilet line snaking.  (We were paying $25
per pump not too long ago.)  Personally, that would put me off this roto-man
outfit.  A second and third opinion shouldn't cost much.

Besides, your original problem might have been just the toilet line and not
a full tank - unless your "overflowing in the bathroom" was happening in the
lowest (vertically) drain in the house, in which case, yes, it sounds like
a full tank.

So, sure, try Rid-X or some such, while you're trying to figure out the
quality/life-span of your septic system.  (Are you sure it's 26 years old?
Mightn't a previous owner have upgraded?  From whomever installed it, can you
find out its size?  type (field, chamber, whatever)?  material?  This info
should help determine its condition.)

    
    I paid $125 for an acid treatment of my 35 year old septic system last
    year, it worked great. $600 is outrageous, unless you have a 5,000
    gallon tank or something.
    
    CdH
    

    	I've got a 1,000 gallon tank. Roto-Man is just extremely
    expensive. Like I mentioned it was emergency case, I was working
    at the Digital Seniors Classic when this happened, so wifey-poo
    took the first place that would have someone over in an hour. I'm
    looking elsewhere for the acid treatment, it should probably be
    worth it. Thanks for replies.
    
    Keith

>              -< Where/what company was $125?? I'm in Salem, NH >-
Are you talking to me?  I mentioned a $25 charge for pumping.  This is, however:
1.  dependent on my normally write-only memory, and
2.  in Goffstown, NH - St. Onge Septic.  Great guys.  Our pump died once (the
pump from the tank to the leach field).  It took him two weeks to try to get
it fixed (not his fault), and wound up getting us a new one.  For those two
weeks, he pumped our tank every two/three days FREE.  Just charged us for the
new pump.

    
    My quote of $125 was last year and would not apply to you, as it was
    from Berthiaume in Charlton, MA. I gave it as a reference only.
    
    CdH
    

The Health department in Sturbridge MA sued a general contractor there about a 
series of homes he built where he filled perk test holes with sand to get them 
to pass. All of these septics failed 1-2 years later and the people have been
the talk of the area and can't resell the houses. Seems the ground in that area
won't perk so they can't even install a good system. No town sewerage, existing
homes with people in them...

A real mess and still in the courts

    
    I've heard of a case in Nashua where a contractor built a bunch
    of homes and in doing so the water table shifted. When it shifted
    a group of homes right next to the contractors homes septic systems
    didn't work very well anymore, and there was even flooding. When
    Nausha planning board granted the permits for the homes they never
    considered the water tables.
    
    Mike

In Massachussetts, a town's Board of Health is the agency legally responsible
for septic systems.

I asked my town's Health Agent what was the right thing to do in this
situation.  Her response was:

1. Ask the installer to fix the system.

2. If the installer refuses to take any action, contact your town's Board of 
   Health.

3. The Board of Health will inspect your system and try to determine the cause
   of the failure and if the failure was due to improper installation, or some
   other cause.  The Board of Health should also have a copy of the septic
   system plan and they can verify if the system was installed according to the
   plan.

4. If the failure was due to improper installation, the Board of Health can
   order the installer to fix it.  Their leverage with the installer is that
   they can revoke the installer's license to do septic work in the town.


Good Luck,
John

    
    
    I just went through a whole series of home inspections in conjunction
    with Homequity, who is one of Digital's 3rd party home buyers. One
    of these inspections was for the septic system. It passed okay, but
    the guy who did it told my wife that our leach field probably has
    2-3 years life in it. We have lived in this house since it was new
    (13 years ago) and have never had septic problems. We have the tank
    pumped out every 3-4 years. My question is, how can this guy predict
    the failure of the leach field just by digging a couple of test holes,
    maybe a foot or so deep? And if he is right, is there anything I can
    do now to avoid the expense of replacing my leach field. I saw some
    references to an acid treatment in some prior notes. Is this a fix,
    or would I just be prolonging the inevitable? I saw RID-X mentioned
    somewhere too, but I thought that was just to increase the bacteria
    count in your septic tank so that it would function properly. Would
    it stop a leach field from clogging?
    
    I'm not in a panic about this, but I'd like to know if there's
    something that can be done now in order to avoid an emergency
    situation.
    
    							Thanks,
    							Paul
    

    
    
    re .83 
    
    
       I'd be real interested in how he did that test. I don't have
    any problems but it would be good to know for future ref.
    
    
    
    thanks
    

    Quick question on honey trucks. How long a hose do they generally have?
    Does this vary? In other words, if your septic tank isn't very close
    to the driveway, do you get honey truck ruts in your lawn?

    I'm talking about between 100-150 feet.

    My understanding about test holes in leach fields is this.  If you poke
    a test hole (one inch diameter sampling tube), and the soil below the
    surface is quite wet, then that's an indication that the leach field is
    no longer draining properly.  I'm not sure how this interacts with
    recent use of the leach field.  Perhaps you have to refrain from
    flushing toilets and running water for some time period beforehand. 
    Regardless, the concept makes sense to me.
    
    I know of one person who had this done before buying his house.  If I
    had known about it, we would have had it done, too.  Instead, we wound
    up paying to pump the tank, checking the flow in and out of the tank
    as part of the process.
    
       Gary

    Here is my predicament:

    One of the leaching pits in my system first failed when our house
    was less than 3 years old (last fall).  The system is comprised of
    a 1K gallon septic tank and two, 2' leaching pits (I believe this
    refers to their depth, yes?).  This is for a 3 bedroom house occupied
    by two adults and a 4 year-old.

    I had the system pumped at that time and the problem seemed to "dry 
    up" over our dry winter.  This spring, the problem came back with a 
    vengeance.  One load of laundry and there is water coming out of the
    ground at one of the pits.  I called in the service co. again. They 
    pumped the system and told me to get a hold of the "as-built" plan, the
    proposed plan, and the perc results and certification.  We arranged
    for them to come back in a few weeks to see how things were coming along.  

    In the interim, I discovered that no as-built plan had ever been filed 
    by the installer.  All of the other documents were available.  A call to
    the installation contractor got me what I expected... no where. (Inci-
    dentally, we discovered there are no as-built plans on file for our
    little development of 12 homes - all with the same contractor).  During 
    those few weeks the problem "resurfaced," so when the service co. came 
    back, we uncovered both of the leaching pits after a lot of trial-and-
    error type searching and we discovered no blockage to the second pit - it 
    is working fine.  At that time, the service co. roughed-up an as-built 
    plan for me.

    When you compare the roughed up "as-built" with the "proposed," you can
    see that the system was actually installed at the opposite end of the 
    back of the house from what was proposed so that the installed leaching 
    pits are about 50-60' from where the proposed plan shows them.  The
    tested perc rate was 7 minutes, which I'm told is pretty good, but I
    have no idea what the rate is where the pits actually are located.

    At this point, the quality of the installation itself is not in ques-
    tion, only its location.  I'm in the process of getting an estimate 
    to uncover the system and check the quality of installation and it 
    appears that just detecting if there is a problem with installation is
    an expensive matter in and of itself.

    
    Now the interesting stuff....  the original inspector for the Board of
    Heath (town of Franklin, Ma.) is deceased.  The guy I'm talking to is
    cooperative in giving advice on how I can solve this problem at my own
    expense - get a permit, call in a contractor for a new perc test, add a 
    leaching pit, etc.  He totally avoids any discussion of the potential 
    liability of the installer, or where the B of H was when the system was
    installed at variance with the plan, or the fact that no as-built is on
    file.  I should also mention that I've learned that the deceased inspec-
    tor for the B of H was the father of the installation contractor...
    (Well, this *is* Mass., right?  ;^)).

    So, among my many questions... Does anyone know if the Town of Franklin
    and/or its B of H bear any of the liability in this matter?  Does the 
    installation contractor bear any liability?  Should I just pay for the 
    new perc test and an additional leaching pit rather than fight city hall?
    Or, should my attorney start piling up "billable time?"

    HELP!
    Bob Salino
                                         

Like .0, I also have a leach field that is fairly near the surface.  At
least the gravel is near the surface -- I've haven't dug for the pipes.  

My question is, is there an optimal depth for the leaching pipes, or can
they be arbitrarily deep? I'd like to add soil over my leach field, and I
can't see how that would hurt their operation, but I want to ask for
opinions and experience first.  Could this help the leach field?

By the way, I know I don't need any permits to do this, since as far as
my town is concerned, I don't even have a leach field.  Never mind that
the contractor who put it is is willing to swear it was there and was
inspected -- they didn't keep the records, so it isn't there.  So my
concern is solely with whether this would reduce the leaching effect, 
rather than with the legality of burying a leach field.  

	Thanks,
	Larry

	re.6
	I don't know where you live but in Westford, Ma. my Engineer
	said the important aspect is the elevation with respect to
	the ground water table is what's really important, 4' minimum,
	as well as a break-out area of 25' on each side of the field.
	There's a minimum amount of stone/gravel that must cover the
	system.  If memory serves me correctly that's ~12", beyond that
	you can build up with any suitable top soil for any depth.  On
	the other hand he recommended that be kept to a minimum to allow
	better evaporation, thereby releaving the system of some of the
	burden or leaching.  That's also the opinion of the Installer that
	we used.  I tend to beleive and trust both of them and their
	experience.  I'm planning on covering my new system with 3"-5"
	of loam then seed and hope for the best grass in town.  ;^)

	Frank

    
    
       I help my friends put new systems in.  I believe that the license
    holder must provide a "as built" document/print at the time of the
    final inspection.  I will verify this tonight for you.
    
       Anyway, call me Wednesday and I will give you all the background
    I can dig up. (no pun)   Sounds like shady dealings from what I've
    read so far.
    
       Rick.    264-7661
    
    

>              <<< Note 832.87 by CSSE::SALINO "Wherever you go, there you are." >>>
>                           -< Does this smell as badly as I think? >-

      Your  local  building  inspector may have a copy of the "as build"
      plans and the approval documents.  I  think  these  are  generally
      required for occupancy approoval.  Give him a call.

Still being in the middle of finalizing all the official documents (at GREAT
expense) for my system, I can tell you that my board of health (Nashoba Valley)
is very meticulous about these things.

I read your note and started salivating thinking about getting all that 
money back. From what you have told me so far, I'd get a lawyer involved
right away. Sounds to me like you have a very solid case.

For a reasonably new system (since Title V in MA.) there is no excuse for
not having an "as-built" plan. And the little tid-bit about the
inspector/contractor relationship seems to solidify your position (can
you say Ethics Commission? :-))

							Mark

    Much thanks to all who've responded.

    re:  .88   On the question of warranty, the general contractor does
    not warranty a septic installation.  I'm not sure about his agreement
    (if any) with the sub.  Also, the Board of Health will not guarantee
    a system they've OK'd for any period of time whatsoever.

    re:  .89   We also tried the building inspector (in fact, the B of H
    went this route for me) and while the inspector does need these doc-
    uments to issue the occupancy certificate, he claims he turns them
    over to the Board of Health after the OC is issued.  (Why do I feel
    like I'm standing in the wrong line at the Registry?  ;^))

    re:  .90   Yes, my lawyer is now involved... talk about salivating!

    re:  .91   One pit is overflowing, one pit seems to be operating pro-
    perly.  We've located the D box but have not uncovered it sufficiently
    at this point to determine if that is where the problem is.  What I'm
    wondering is if different slopes on the pipes out of the D box to the
    pits could cause one of the pits to work overtime and fail?   Or, can
    the outlets from the D box be adjusted to compensate for this?  We are 
    located on a hill and I suppose that a bad measurement could mean that 
    one of the pits was installed much deeper than the other. 
    
    I've got two engineers coming to look at the system this week. 
    Stay tuned.         

    Thanks again,
    Bob

    Well, the saga continues.  As I mentioned, I had a few engineering
    outfits take a look at the situation.  One of the engineering groups
    I called in was the group that did the original proposal and plan
    for the house.  Of the engineers that I called in, I was least pleased
    with them, and my suspicions about them were confirmed when I learned
    that the outfit is owned and operated by the Father-in-law of the
    subcontractor!!!   
    
    So... what I've now found out is that the original plan/proposal was 
    done by the FATHER-IN-LAW of the contractor, and the perc test/final 
    Board of Health inspection being done by the now-deceased FATHER of the 
    contractor!!!  By the way, estimates for a backhoe and engineer to dig 
    up the system, test, and draw up an as-built and a new plan for a new 
    system all ran around $1200.  Don't know yet what it would cost to 
    rebuild a system, but I'm being told many thousands.

    So... I placed a call to my state rep and the DEQE.  In the same day, 
    the Town Manager and the head of the Board of Health contacted us and 
    started to work the situation.  The head of the Board of Health (not 
    the inspector who was giving us a run-around) came to the house to look
    things over.  His official position is that the whole thing is "fishy,"
    (i.e., All-in-the-Family, no as-built, system installed in the wrong
    place), he doesn't like the layout of the system or the grading that 
    was done.  He now wants the general- and the subcontractor to re-engineer 
    the entire system and reconstruct it at their cost!  He believes all I
    should pay for is the $65 permit and the $35 to have a B of H inspector 
    at the perc test!  Right now, I guess I have a partial victory, but I'm
    still holding my breath (pun intended).

    
    Bob

    I bought a house just 2 years ago. The owners had just pumped out the
    septic tank and said everything was fine. I, being in the financial
    bind of buying the house, figured that they were trustworthy and hoped
    for the best.
    I've always known that the land around the septic tank was moist,
    great grass though, but never realized how saturated it was.
    I wanted to pump the septic tank this fall. So 3 weeks ago I started 
    digging in the general area of where I knew the septic tank to be.
    1st - after digging 1 foot, a bit of water was seeping into the hole.
    After digging 1 1/2 feet, water was really coming in until the depth
    was almost a foot deep. No smell though and no septic tank.
    
    Well, I finally found the tank which was just to the side of the hole I
    dug. I had it pumped out this past Saturday and lo and behold, the
    septic people said I had a dry well and not a septic system.
    In other words, I think I'm going against code right now.
    What is the difference between a dry well and a septic system? 
    Do the previous owners have any responsibilities since they never
    informed me that I had a dry well and not a septic tank.
    Someone I know, had said that the previous owners are responsible for
    2 years after selling the house. I have had the house exactly 2 years 
    on the 13th of this month.
    
    The septic people basically said to keep having the dry well pumped
    every 2 years and not to do anything to the system until it goes bad.
    (which is just as well since I'm now starting to pay back the loan for
    my new kitchen!).
    
    I definitely can't afford to put a new system in. Would it help to dig
    up the area around the tank to try to put more drainage in? Or should I
    just wait until it gets so bad that I have to do something with the
    system. 
    Needless to say, I'm not spreading the word about my septic system.
    
    By the way, is there any grandfathering allowed for septic systems?
    My well is grandfathered since it is a shallow well. I was wondering
    about my septic system.
    				Cindy
    

    Sounds like a cesspool, which is effectively a drywell for sewage
    waste. Where I grew up, my parents had one before sewers were installed
    in the street. I'm assuming that there isn't a holding tank somewhere
    between the house and the "drywell" because that would be a different
    matter (I think that's called a leaching tank).
    
    Eric
    

    What does a septic inspection entail? To be more specific, the firm
    hired (by Homequity) to inspect my septic system plan to conduct a
    "stress test" - they will ensure that the holding tank is full, and
    then continue to feed water at full capacity (of the waste discharge
    pipe) for 20 minutes or so.
    
    Sounds like a massively invasive procedure to me - or am I just biased
    as I haven't heard of this before? Any precautions I should take?
    
    To make things seem more fishy - when I spoke with the guy voicing my
    reservations he said that this test saves Digital money as the other
    alternative of pumping out and inspecting is more expensive.
    

    re: .96
    
    I can believe it's cheaper.  It's also better in some ways.  The
    pump-and-look method will tell you about the septic tank, but only a
    little about the leach field.  Normally, before pumping, you have
    someone flush a few times, and the inspector checks to make sure that
    the liquid leaves the septic tank reasonably (whatever that means).
    
    My understanding of the method you're describing is that you try to
    load the leach field with all this water, and then just stick a probe
    into the field to remove a sample of dirt.  Examining the sample should
    indicate whether the leach field is draining properly.  Too dry, and
    there's a clog somewhere, preventing liquid from getting to the
    leaching pipes.  Too wet, and the leach field is exhausted, because it
    can't eliminate the water adequately.
    
       Gary

    re: back a few
    
    I think Eric is right...you have a cesspool.   At least that
    was my situation.  I thought it was a septic system when I moved
    in as well, but when I put up an addition, and had to have
    the system inspected, turned out to be a cesspool.  And that meant
    I had to have it dug up, and replaced by the appropriate septic...
    big bucks I hadn't counted on spending...
    
    Anyway, if I were you, I'd do just like the guy said...leave it.
    Pump it regularly, and if you start having problems get it replaced.
    Otherwise, you may move long before it dies.  As for grandfathering..
    that's the way it was in my town (billerica), so I doubt you are
    breaking any laws.  
    
    just my 2 cents
    
    deb
    

    Thanks for giving my drywell a name. When people mentioned cesspools it
    dawned on me that is what my parents had before town sewage. I suppose
    that this was a septic method prior to using tanks and leach fields?
    
    Also, other than digging up the area around the cesspool and attempting
    to put in a leach field (time and money are low right now), is there
    anything I can do for the saturated land around the cesspool?
    			Cindy
    

    
    
      Are we really sure here that this a cesspool and not a DRYwell.
    Maybe you had your drywell pumped?? How many discharge pipes are
    there in the basement. Big Black pipes leading out the foundation
    toward your drywell/cesspool. If there are two then you might have
    a septic system and drywell. This a commonn setup for houses of the
    1950 vintage. Anyways... what made me think this was you stated the
    water didn't stink when digging. I'd have to say that septic waste
    would give off a noticeable odor. On the other hand a drywell with
    just washer discharge wouldn't smell so bad, maybe more like TIDE.
    
    
    BAL

    this is definitely the septic tank/cesspool. The pipe in the basement 
    goes out in the direction of the cesspool. Also, the previous owners
    gave me the directions to the cesspool.
    I'm not sure why it didn't smell. However, the grass is extremely green
    around that area.
    			Cindy
    

    I have a situation where I have a TOTAL failure of my septic system and
    drainage pit (not leech field). I moved into my new house 3 weeks ago.
    We realized that we had a major problem when a septic tank engineer
    came over to pump and clean our tank on Wednesday ; Friday the tank was
    overflowing. The septic tank engineer recommended a leech field
    engineer to come over and assess damages. He has told us that our
    system is ancient and that something like this does not happen over
    night. My 4 questions are this:
    
    Has anyone had a problem like this?
    Does anyone know if we have recourse? Apparently we do, since our
    realtor called the seller and the seller says they are willing to pay
    up to a certain amount. (I am assuming that they should be totally
    responsible for this). 
    And....Can anyone recommend a good leech field engineer in the
    Lunenburg area? Who should I stay away from in this area?
    
    Thanks for any advice/input,
    Cathy (223-4015)

You're welcome to discuss the questions "Has anyone had a problem like this?"
and "Do we have recourse?" here, but please put any recommendations in 2027.

To the author of .0:  there are a couple of septic contractors in 2027 and 2015.
You'll probably get better response to your request for recommendations if you 
post it (without all the details of your problem) in 2027.


					DCL, moderator

    Now you know why you should pay to have the tank pump and inspected
    before you buy the house.
    
    If you have an engineer willing to testify that the system has been
    like this for some time, and that the previous owners must have known
    that there was a problem, and if the previous owners did not tell you
    that you have a problem, then you have a good case.  You should find
    out how much it will cost to repair this to your satisfaction, and try
    to get the sellers to pay the full amount.
    
    The negotiations may be tricky.  If the sellers had revealed this
    before you made your offer, then the septic system becomes a negotiable
    item; they had no obligation to repair it first.  Since, apparently
    they withheld this information, that puts an obligation on them. 
    However, you may be better off settling for a partial payment now than

    re. .2
    Gary, I have a friend that pumps septic tanks and he makes more
    that most MIT grads...
    
    Back to the subject: What if the pervious owners really didn't know 
    the system was bad, can they really be made to pay?  Sometimes when
    new owners change the "use habits" of a system it may fail. Something
    like buying an older car that was only used it on Sundays
    for a trip to church. Than you drive it to commute 25 miles a day
    and discover that you can follow your route back home by the blue 
    smoke it belched on your morning trip.
    
    Jim

    re: .3  He said he moved in 3 weeks ago so I don't think "use habits'
    would be the problem.  I think what I would do is go thru the yellow
    pages, looking up local pumping services, and see if they keep records
    of pumpings.  Ask if they can go thru for, say, the last year or
    if they will let you go thru looking for the previous owners name
    or for that address.  If he's pumped more than once in the last
    year, you got him.
    
    Chris D.

    As far as the "use habits" goes, that is a non-issue. We have spoken to
    all of the septic tank outfits in the area and surrounding areas and
    they have all stated the same thing: This problem does not happen
    overnight. It takes years. Because of the total failure (water is going
    to the septic tank and no further), the previous owner had to know
    about it. We have found out since then that they did not use their
    water at all during the last couple of months. 
    The reason that we did not have it pumped for our home inspection is
    that they gave us a letter stating that it had been pumped in March,
    1989. (6 months ago) Our home inspector accepted this and said there
    shouldn't be a need for this to be done again.
    The bottom line here is that the previous owners have agreed to pay for
    it (and you know what I am assuming!) ... We found out that not only is
    the seller at fault here; so is the listing realtor AND the home
    inspector for allowing the letter and not insisting this be done.
    There was a previous deal that fell thru on this house and we have been
    in touch with the people who wanted the house but didn't get it.
    They told us that when they wanted to have the tank pumped, the seller
    and realtor refused to let them do so.
    Sounds pretty fishy to me! Anyway, I am all set. They have agreed to
    pay and I will have a new system tomorrow.
    My husband's father is a plumber (in the business for 45 yrs.), so we
    know the proper usage of septic systems. ie: Don't use colored tissue
    and throw it in the toilet, etc. 
    Thanks for all of the advice/information. I appreciate it!
    If there ever is a next time, I won't hesitate to have something like
    this checked out thoroughly. 
    

	On a similar note, :-), I read an article in the business section
	of yesterday's Boston Globe about septic system problems at the
	Sherbourne (sp?) Village condo complex in Tyngsboro.

	Its 96 units, and the septic system failed s few years ago.
	The condo assoc. is spending 10K a WEEK pumping it!  They can't
	keep pumping it, and have enough $$$ to fix the system (500K-1M S)
	so they are requesting the condo dwellers to MOVE OUT!

	Josh

    Here are my sewer/septic experiences and questions.
                  I grew up in a 200 yr old house with a failing septic 
    system. It overflowed mostly in the spring. In the summer the 25'
    hand dug well was dry. No need to worry about overloading the
    system then. We were under strict orders to "do it before we came
    home".
                 When we got to High School the system was upgraded(approx.
    1970). The Nashoba BoH Engineer had some gripe with the installation/
    design. The result was the Town and NABoH couldn't come up with any 
    better design without causing a real hardship and what had been done
    was approved and would not create a health hazard.
                 Ten tears ago my brother bought a plot from Dad and put in
    his system about 1000' away. He had slow perc rates (two passing
    required - one for primary, one for expansion(in case primary fails
    in future). He is limited to a three bedroom house.
                 Two years ago my husband and I started testing for a lot
    there too. Miserable failure. Engineers called it "Tupperware".
    We discoverd the whole top of the knoll was a big mound of clay. The other
    systems just happened to fall in the valley that wraps around the mound. 
                 We tried just to one side of my brothers system and failed
    again. Silty sand with fist sized rocks and 3' boulders. We have one
    more spot (just the other side of his system) to try in this season.
                 We have been told it must perc or forget it, there is no
    design, at any cost that is acceptable. 
                 Anyone who's been thru this have any suggestion? Anybody
    have "unusual" septic systems on new lots? How 'bout a good design
    handbook for reference?
    

    My present house (65+yrs) has Town sewer. We have had several problems 
    in the last ten years.
                Previous owners (25+yrs) allowed a Maple tree to flourish
    directly over the pipe from the house to the main. About every 3yrs.
    the flow starts to slow down. It actually backs up thru the overflow
    pipe to the clothes washer in the celler. After the first major
    overflow we became "sensitive" to this (starts with a small amount of
    water and suds backing up) and now we call the DPW ASAP.
    They come and snake it out. 
                The first time it happened we panicked. But the DPW told
    us they own the pipe right up to the house. If they felt it necessary
    they might take the tree down but it was their responsibility. If we
    found we had to call them every year or more they would consider it.
    They told us roots are a common problem and they had several residences
    they got calls from approx. every 3-4 yrs.
                 They did suggest we increase the height of the overflow
    from the clothes washer. We had a couple of false alarms when the
    bubbles overflowed (changed detergent,overloaded machine). 
                 It will be 4 yrs this spring. I'm keeping my eye on it.

    While trying to perc the lot mentioned in previous reply (832.102) we
    have been looking at houses. We have seen a 100 yr. old house that
    needs everything but we are considering it. The present owners do not
    have the resources to fix anything.
                The existing system was inspected several years ago when a
    second morgage was acquired. The bank required a new pipe be installed
    from the house to the system. I talked to the contractor (who is a
    friend of my Father). He told us the existing system is the original
    cesspool. I think it is about 6' x 6' and lined with fieldstone.
                Whatever, his assesment of the situation is: 
    "With 2 adults and 2 teens in the house it appears to work now. The BoH
    does not require existing systems be brought up to present regs unless
    the system fails or you add bedrooms or bathrooms. If you eventually
    are required to put in a new system the local and regional(Nashoba)
    boards accept that their requirements must be "do-able". They are
    very strict about approving new systems but can "adjust" for
    existing residences. It can be expensive, but they won't condemn you
    and throw you out. He said the worst case he had seen was no more than
    $20,000.
                Yes, that's alot of money. But we paln on getting a pro.
    evaluation stating this in writing and will adjust any offer we make
    accordingly. When this rears its ugly head we will be ready for it.
                I have written to the Nashoba BoH asking for the results
    of any testing that has been done on surrounding lots. I know
    some of the neighbors and have been told that test results on lots close
    by were poor. There are several new houses within 3/4 of a mile in the
    last 10 yrs. Two of the houses (big $) had problems. One with ledge,
    the system is shallow and has some enormous area for the leach field
    (200'x200'). But it percs. The other house was built by the local
    big $ developer for himself. He had major problems but somehow got
    around them. $ and or ???.
                 The worst scenario the excavator/contractor could predict
    would be that we might be required to install a tank system that would
    need to be pumped every 3 mos. forever. Not necessarily expensive to
    install but would cost over time. This would happen if the property
    didn't perc at all. It would be safe health wise but unacceptable 
    for new construction.
                 After reading all the septic notes I can't believe the
    problems with newer homes! This old place doesn't sound so bad. At
    least I wouldn't be suprised if the system "crapped out"!
                 Any info on cesspool design? Anybody have one that works
    all the time? Any body heard of a "tank" system?   
     Now, some questions and comments. What does a cesspool
    design look like?  Is it just a hole lined with block or stone , solids
    collect at bottom and liquid leaches thru walls ? Or could there be
    more to it?

    re: -.2

         I once was going to build on a lot of mostly clay, with a slow
    perc rate. The solution was what was termed a "raised" mound septic
    system. What it ammounted to was a large area (100 ft�) of gravel about
    4 to 6 feet thick. In the middle of this gravel, is where the pipes
    were to go, for the drain field. It was my understanding that this
    allowed the effluent to be spread over a larger area than normal, and
    thus could perc through the clay soil at an acceptable rate. (I
    wondered if the effluent didn't also evaporate, somewhat). My problem
    was that the field would be up hill from the house and that
    necessitated a pump. As soon as you talk pump, you talk failures, and I
    didn't like the idea. Nothing beats gravity. Let the sh*t flow by
    itself!

         Bottom line was about $11k in 1985; it was too rich for my blood. I
    took my building plans to another location. HOWEVER, someone else built
    there, and they are living there, with a grassy, landscaped area in
    their back yard, that has to be the system I am talking about. Perhaps
    this would work in your situation. If so, I'm sure the BoH would know
    about it. Hope it helps some....

                                Eric

       Just a note about a few things I have learned from lot testing
    and looking at old houses.
       In smaller towns the Town Board of Health should have the as-built-
    plans in their files. If they don't try to find the name of the
    engineering firm and call them for a copy. My brothers were on
    file but I needed a copy and got them from the engineering firm.
    Just before they filed for bankruptcy!
       I have also been hearing rumors that some of the towns with no
    town sewer are considering looking at overall SQ FT in a house
    when setting capacity requirements for septic systems. The rational
    I have heard is: 
                      You may have only three bedrooms in your
    house, but if it totals lots of SQ FT you could comfortably be 
    sleeping an army in your family room. 
                      Health boards are allowed to protect public health
    and they can only limit septic systems for this reason. I know some
    towns are trying to evaluate what it might be like in the future if all
    possible lots were developed. They are concerned that current regulations
    are not enuf to protect water and provide future expansion.
                      If you are planning on building keep an eye on the
    local BoH activities. Where it is health related, if you have not 
    built yet you may be required to live up to any changes, even if
    your plan was approved. I believe the town I have been dealing with
    has a clause in their regs that says until built thou shalt honor 
    any new regs.

    I've done a directory search and could not find a topic on how to
    restart/activate a private sewerage system that has not been used for a
    while.
    
    My wife and I are planning to close on a house at the end of the month.
    It is a foreclosure property. No one lived there over the past six
    months and was winterized (glycol).
    
    What steps/precautions should I take to reactivate the dormant system?
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jim LaTouche

Jim,

Take a VERY close inspection of the house; under the house, in
the attic, etc. Under the house because here in Colorado, there
has been stories of thieves unsoldering copper pipes and selling
them. The houses were empty for a period of time. In the attic to
be sure that critters has not made homes there. BUT, can you kick
the critters in the middle of winter? 8}

Try to do all this before your walk-through as you take delivery.

cal

    There is a Clivus at one of the Audubons in Eastern Ma. Waltham? Maybe
    Walpole? I found it rather drafty and cold on the "bottom". No odor.
    Otherwise I was impressed with the idea, but I didn't have to clean it
    out. 
            What do you do in a two storey house? I would think all toilets
    would have to be in one area on the first floor.

    There should be nothing to it as long as the part that was not
    winterized was drained.  I have several places that are used only in
    the summer and each spring we have to go through the routine. 
    
    Make sure all the little drain caps are put back on.  It is a good idea
    to get some exrtas because something eats them over the winter it never
    fails.
    
    Open all focets a little to let the air out as the pipes fill with
    water.
    
    The hot water will come out brown, but that will clear up shortly.
    
    Have buckets ready, because if low points froze water is going to come
    shooting out.
    
    It is best if you have two people working it together, one person at
    the main shutoff and one checking out the pipes throughout the house,
    and when the checker finds a leak yell back to the shutoff person or
    you will have a real flood by the time you get back to the shut off if
    you are by yourself.
    
    Another good idea is to have plumbing repair supplies on hand to fix 
    anything that may have cracked.
    
    Other than that it is just like electricity just turn it on and it is
    ready to go.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Paul
    

It pays to add some bacteria to the system.

RID-X is one brand that comes to mind.  I remember helping a friend start up 
cottage, and we found stuff (next to the RID-X) that was geared for jump-
starting a septic system.  We also bought some RID-X to help it along for the
first few weeks.

    I don't know if it's just the time of the year, or if I have a problem.
    
    The whole septic area is real soggy, and there is one spot where water
    is actually bubbling up out of the ground.  There's a septic smell and
    I could see the water running when the washer drained or the toilet
    was flushed.
    
    I'm looking for other people's experiences regarding this.
    
    Informational:  The system is about a year and a half old.
    
    Thanx for any inputs.
    
    	Ted

    
    
    Since the original question was in regard to a sewage system
    re-activation- the answer is simple- just use it. The naturally
    occuring bacteria in waste will get a septic system going all on it's
    own. 
    
     

re .106
    
>    The whole septic area is real soggy, and there is one spot where water

     The septic tank area or the leach field area?  and where exactly
     in relation to these, is the water coming up from the ground?
    
    
>    Informational:  The system is about a year and a half old.
    
            How long is/was your warrantee good for?


     This looks like you have a problem with drainage, could be a clogged pipe,
     defective leach field, etc.


      Steve

    	The leakage appears to be in the leach area.  I'll try to draw a
    	bit, but no promises.
    
    				------------------------------
    				|			     |
    				|	   X 		     | 
    		------		|	leach field	     |
    	   tank	|    |----------|			     |
    		------		------------------------------
    		  |
    		  |
    		  V
    		from house
    
    	Not sure on the warranty, but we'll be looking for that
    documentation soon.  Town inspector is scheduled to look at it
    tomorrow.
    
    		Ted

    
    Now that this issue is brought up,it reminds me of a question that
    has never been answered to my satisfaction.  I am wondering what
    happens when a new septic system is installed and then (after 20 years
    or so) it too has to be replaced.  Can the original leach field be
    then re-utlized?  Does time work to clear out the ground of whatever
    builds up to break down the system?  
    
    Our system is 22 years old and fine (for now).  We have it pumped out
    every year religiously and are very  careful what goes down there.  We
    have actually diverted our wash water away so that it doesn't become
    saturated at any given time.  We are septic-freaks!
    
    Hope someone can answer this query!
    
    
    

    re: .105
    
    I am also interested in your problem since I have the same exact
    problem. I have checked into mine and the warranty is for one year.
    my system is 2.5 years, has 260' of leach line and a 1100 gal septic
    tank. I am wondering if its not the weather because I am located
    in North Georgia where having torrential rains since the start of
    this year. (we had 7" friday night). I am not noticing a smell though.
    
    My question is if it is a problem does anyone suppose just adding
    an extra 100' of line to the field would correct the problem. I
    got the septic map from my local health problem and my problem appears
    to be at the end of the existing 260' leach field. I have also got
    estimates from $4.00 to $8.00/foot to have the line added. Maybe
    I should just wait to see if I start getting a foul odor.
    
    Thanks
    Drew (who wishes my whole lawn was this plush!)
    

re .5:

I believe it is usually the field that goes when a septic system "dies".  Tanks
can be pumped.

-Mike

    Re: 6
    
    Yes, I am aware of that.  I think though that keeping the system 
    from overflowing into the leach field (by regular pumping) does
    help to prolong the life of the system.  
    
    But can you or anyone answer my initial question:  Can the former
    leach field be used again when the most current area is used up?
    
    

re: .7

	I guess I'm a little confused.

	The failures I have heard about are usually the leach field. Just
as .6 said. The only time I have heard of the septic tank failing is from
heavy trucks breaking the tank. This usually occurs with cement trucks
and not marking the septic tank location.

	If you are asking this and you have only had one intial septic
leach field; the answer is no. You would either build a new leach field
in another spot in the yard or rebuild the old non-working leach field.

	If you have gon and built a second leach field and wondering if the
first field will recover someday. I would guess not. The stuff that clogs it
works like clay and makes a pretty solid material. I don't know if after a
while, you might be able to break this up so as to reduce the cost of rebuilding
the old leach field. Might save some hauling away costs.


	I hope I answered your question.    

			Bill

re .7:

I'm confused, too.

A septic system is very simple.  You have a tank, the pipe that enters it,
and the leach field.  A septic system failure is a failure of one or more
of these.  The pipe leading in can be unplugged, or replaced if needed.
Besides needing pumping, the tank rarely fails, barring cement trucks
or similar.  So if a system fails, and it's not one of the above, that leaves
the field.  If this fails, you'll most likely have to replace it.  I've heard
of treating the field with sulfuric acid or something, but supposedly that
only buys you a little time.

-Mike

    Actually, the fields are often made up of multiple pipes comming off a
    distribution box:
    
    
    |------|       |-----|         |------------
    |      |       |     |---------|
    | TANK |-------|D BOX|----------------------  FIELDS
    |      |       |     |---------|
    |------|       |-----|         |------------
    
    (Box sizes not to scale)
    
    The solids should stay in the tank, while the liquid flows into the D
    Box and is distributed to the individuals field pipes. If the tank
    isn't breaking down solids fast enough (or the baffle has corroded),
    solids can pass out of the tank and into the d box and fields, clogging
    them.
    
    Eric

    What if you have a septic tank in which in the spring, water floats to
    the top every time you flush the toilet? I'm not sure whether I really
    DO have a leach field or just the septic tank (no pipes going out, I
    think it's made out of cinder blocks which is letting out some
    liquids).
    
    Ever since I bought the house, the ground over the tank has been soft,
    and after a rain it is REALLY moist (however, I'm not getting any smell
    from the soil nor the water that rises from over the tank).
    
    I seem to have the water problem only in the spring (that is the water 
    rising from the ground). There's only 1 person in the house and the
    only thing that's hooked into the septic system in the bathroom.
    
    By the signs that I've mentioned, do they imply that I only have a
    septic tank? If so, is it possible to dig around the tank, add a
    distibution center, bring in gravel and fill and Viola - a leach field?
    (the tank is on the side of a hill so the land drops off quite a bit
    afterwards)
    
    			Cindy
    

    Some older homes have a 'cesspool' rather than a septic tank. It's
    a cistern made from stone or cement blocks - nothing more... no
    leach field, no second tank. Waste water flows into it, the solids
    settle, and the water runs out through the cracks.
    
    If the solids have built up too much (ie, to above the level of the
    ground water - or worse...), then just getting it pumped will fix
    the problem. If the cracks are clogged with years of crud, then you
    may need to have it pumped and give it a chemical treatment to dissolve
    the stuff in the cracks.
    
    There is a point of failure beyond which no amount of pumping or
    chemicals can help it. At that point you've just got to get a new
    one.
    
    If you have problems with water bubbling up when you flush, bathe,
    or whatever, then it may be just a matter of time before it bubles
    up into your sink or basement. It's not something to ignore.

    Oh yeah... and no matter how simple it may sound to fix it
    yourself - don't even think about it. Cesspools are usually quite
    deep, really (I mean *really*) contaminated, and generally several
    feet deep at the top.              even the soil around them is bad...
    
    Call a professional and have the job done right. Besides, there
    are probably lots of codes and laws about who does what to septic
    systems.
    
    Also, fyi - if you install another septic system, it's a good idea
    to get the old one filled in with crushed stone. I'd hate to think
    of one collapsing.

>    What if you have a septic tank in which in the spring, water floats to
>    the top every time you flush the toilet? I'm not sure whether I really
>    DO have a leach field or just the septic tank (no pipes going out, I
>    think it's made out of cinder blocks which is letting out some
>    liquids).
      
      Hmm...  How old is the house?  If the tank does not have an outlet
      it is, by definition, not a septic tank.  What you _may_  have  --
      especially  if  its  an older house -- is a "cess pool".  (I think
      thats the right term.)  This is, essentially, just a big dry well.
      It would have an earth bottom and/or many small outlets around the
      sides and on the bottom. Basically its just a big filter that lets
      the liquid seep out and keeps the solids in.
      
      Now  the  bad  news.   If it overflows every time you flush or run
      water it is almost certainly  failed.   Unfortunately  you  cannot
      repair or replace it. If it cant be made to work by pumping it out
      you will have to have a complete new septic system installed. This
      means  perk  test, state and local permits/inspections, and a good
      chunk of money -- probably in the $2-5000 range, although it could
      be  more  depending  on your site conditions.  
      
      The  law in NH and I think elswhere does not permit re-building or
      major repair of sub-standard systems -- which sounds like what you
      might  have.  They must be brought up to current standards.  i.e.,
      build a new system to current standards.
      
      The  first thing you should do is get whatever it is pumped.  Talk
      to your neighbors to find out who  does  good,  reasonably  priced
      septic  service  in  your  area.   (Call  me if you live in/around
      Bedford/Goffstown, NH.) The person who pumps your tank can look at
      you  system  and tell you more in 5 minutes that all the noters in
      this file can tell you in 5 weeks. (Not to offend anyone, but this
      sounds like something you have to be there and see it to be sure.)
      
      
      BTW building a new leach field is usually cheaper that re-building
      one that has failed.  "Re-buidling" means digging  up  and  hauling
      away  all  the  polluted  stone/sand/soil, which is now "hazardous
      waste".  Then you have to haul in new material.   If  having  your
      system  pumped  once  a year for ~$50-75 can keep it working it is
      _WELL_ worth doing.

    It may also be possible that you leach field has failed or is reduced
    in capacity.  WHen it rains the ground is already water logged from
    your waste water and there is no where for the rain water to go.  Also
    in the spring, water tables rise because of the heavy rains which
    causes the ground to already be saturated with water and it cannot
    accept additional water from your house via your waste system.
    
    I agree with previous.  Get a professional on site to determine if
    cesspool or spectic system.  They can offer an opinion on what is wrong
    and then you can deciede what plan of action needs to be taken or
    whether to bring in the town inspector for a second opinion.

    
    There's a lot of conflicting information in the last several relies. I
    don't know about NH but MA.
    
    Before you succumb to a new system, find out of you have a cesspool or 
    a septic system. If your cesspool has failed try acid treatment next.
    Basically they pump the system dry and then dump 30 gallons of sulfuric
    acid in and let it cook for a few days. It can buy you some time. If
    this doesn't work, this does not necessarily mean you have to rip out
    or fill the old cesspool and bring your system up to code. It depends
    on the regulations. You may be grandfathered. What I've seen done is a
    new ring is put in near the old one and a pipe connects the old
    cesspool with the new one. This is a great deal less expensive than a 
    whole new system.
    
    CdH
    
    

re: << Note 3750.16 by STROKR::DEHAHN >>>

>    ... You may be grandfathered. ..

      If  you  have  a  cesspool  I  think  you  will  find that you are
      "grandfathered" only to the extent that the existing system can be
      kept  working.   If  it  needs to be replaced or if it needs major
      repair -- i.e. beyond what could be called "maintenance" --  there
      is no grandfathering.  
      
      The reason for this is that cesspools are now recognized as a much
      more dangerous health hazzard  than  septic  tank  /  leach  field
      systems.  "Hazzard" means both to the house's occupants and to the
      community. 
      
      What  was  reasonable 50-100 years ago in rural areas is no longer
      safe in todays crowded suburbs.

   If you have a well, be careful about the acid treatment, if the well and
  cesspool are fairly close.

   You need to get a professional in there to make an assessment of the
  situation.  If might be as simple as a clogged pipe, and the ROTO ROOTER MAN
  can help.  Or you might have to dig up your entire back yard to fix the 
  problem, without replacing the system.  

   Let us know what the pro has to say, and watch out for biased opinions,
  of someone who wants to sell you a new system, who doesn't have proof that
  it's required.  So, you should get multiple opinions, and assessments before
  you spend a dime.

My situation is a little different but first I've used the directory/keywords
1111 and looked thru the majority of notes 832, 3587, even 2426.  If there's a
better place feel free to move it.

I have a new septic system, (8 months) with a 1500 gal tank and oversize field.
Naturally it took us quite a while to fill the tank but did so and I had removed
the outlet cover to verify that all was flowing.  Yup,  whewww!  That was in the
early December time frame.  I'm getting ready to loam over and landscape and
gave it another look.  There's a bit 8-10 inches of settlement on one side of
the tank and again on one end.  The effluents are at least a foot below the 
outlet.  Before I go pushing panic buttons.....Is it possible that since we are 
only a 3 person family and truely water conservers and winter airs are dryer 
and the top of the tank is still exposed.  That just maybe it's evaporating 
faster than we are filling????  How about the negative side?  Could the tank
have developed a crack from frost heaving etc.  If there is a crack/leak, do I 
have to come up with the out of pocket cash to repairs this or is there a 
responsibilty on the part of the installer or tank manufacturer?  Or do I just
fill in the depressions and go ahead with my landscaping and assume everything
is normal.

Thanks
Frank

      RE:  110 --

      Even  if  you're EXTREMELY conservative in water use it seems very
      unlikley that the amount of water used by 3  people  for  washing,
      cooking,  flushing, etc.  would be able to evaporate from a closed
      concrete tank.  In other words, I think you are correct to suspect
      a leak.
      
      Sounds  like  this  is  a recent installation.  Get the person who
      installed it to take a look at it. If its less that a year old its
      likely  that there is some warantee coverage, so don't delay.  Get
      the builder or whomever you contracted with envolved.
      
      My  guess is that they will need to pump out and clean the tank to
      take a look for damage.  They might also want  to  dig  around  it
      looking  for  leakage.   It is also possible that the line leading
      from your house to the tank is leaking.
      
      Sounds  like a potential mess, but be glad you found it before you
      had your yard finished!

	RE: .109

	If your leaching field is really soggy, and you are seeing water 
   when you flush or run the sink, then the problem is most likely
   that your field is being saturated with either ground or surface
   water. 

   I have a 1.5 year old field that is uphill from the tank and requires
   a pump.  Last week after we had a heavy rain storm here in Ma, I 
   noticed that whenever the pump turned on, I had a little Walt Disney
   World Water show in the yard.  The town inspector felt that the problem
   was due to the water level being higher than ever expected.  Because I 
   live on a hill, he felt that the water was running down the hill and my
   field, being so new, was just sucking up all that water.  He says that
   the only way to fix the problem was to install drainage ditches up hill 
   from the field to direct the ground and surface water away from that area.

   In my case, I may have gotten lucky since in poking around the area,
   we found an old surface drain that had filled with silt.  I cleaned
   the well part out, as well as the exit end of the outlet pipe.  It really 
   hasn't rained since then, so I don't know if this will fix it, but I am
   hoping.

   In terms of your question, if the problem is saturation, more leaching
   area will just mean more saturation.

   Hope this helps,
   Rick
   

RE:.110-.111
        Thanks for the reply Charlie and Gail says hello.   Anyway, I pulled
off the main cover this weekend and looked around with a flashlight.  There
were no visible cracks or holes.  There's a tell-tale ring at the level of 
the bottom of the outlet pipe, which verifies that the tank had at one time
filled to that point.  I guess the only thing I can do now is dig (by hand)
around the perimeter of the tank and see/smell for a wet spot or area.  This
shouldn't be too much work since the tank was backfilled with nice soft sand
and clean gravel.  Providing I do find a saturated area, who should hold the
responsibility for repairs or tank replacement?  This system was installed
last August, (8 months ago).  This is likely going to run into some big bucks.
The field is located only about 3-4ft from the side of the tank.  Digging out
the tank is likely to cause some degree of cave-in/landslides and disrupt the
closest line of the field.  Does anyone know who should bear the responsibility?
The location is in the town of Westford.  We have our own Board of Health.

      Is  the tank completely empty (or nearly so)?  If so the break may
      be in the bottom.  You won't be able to see it without getting the
      tank cleaned out. Again I suggest that you get hold of the builder
      or installer.  They can get a "honey-wagon" to flush  up  all  the
      crud and pump it clean. And why dig by hand? If the tank has to be
      replaced you'll HAVE to use a back hoe, so hand digging seems like
      a pointless waste of time.  
      
      Also,  be aware that septic saturated soil is hazardous waste.  If
      you mess around in it be sure you practice good hygiene -- for you
      person, your tools and your clothing. This stuff can cause serious
      infections and illnesses.
      
      For  a  tank  thats  less  that a year old I would assume that the
      installed (or the builder) would be  responsible.   Thats  another
      reason  to  contact them first; they may just do the entire repair
      or replacement for free, saving you all the hassle.  If they hedge
      tell them you're going to talk to the building inspector and board
      of health.  If they want to continue building is Westford  they'll
      want to say on the good side of the inspector and the board.  
      
      One  additional  suggestion.  I mentioned in an earlier reply that
      you could have a break in the pipe leading from the house  to  the
      septic  tank.  To check this, pull of the cover on the tank again,
      then turn on two or three facets full blast.  Now go look  in  the
      tank. If little or no water is flowing into the tank you will know
      that the problem is before the tank.  Since this  is  MUCH  easier
      than  digging  I suggest you do it first.  Its also much easier to
      replace a pipe that the septic tank.
      
      BTW get this taken care of as quickly as reasonable.  Right now it
      sounds like  you're  dumping  untreated  sewage  into  the  ground
      somewhere. This is almost certainly a violation of some law(s). If
      you allow it to continue  it  could  cause  serious  environmental
      damage  and  require  major  cleanup  costs.   No, that isn't very
      likely, but is is a real possibility and not something you'd  want
      to be held responsible for.

    I am going to install a septic system in a cabin I have in Maine,
    but probably not until next spring/summer. A state approved engineer
    has designed a system for this. This includes tank size, leaching
    area, ....
    	The only concern that I have is that the leach area is uphill
    (not steep, but at least a few feet, probably less than 6'), and
    I believe that it will require a pumping system in the septic tank.
    The engineer's design states that "pumping MAY be required), in other
    words, he didn't measure the difference in grade.
    	If I do need a pump, some questions I have are:
    
    	How much do they increase the cost ?
    
    	How reliable are they ?
    
    	Is there a different septic tank where a pump is involved, or
        will all tanks accept a pump ?
    
    
    While this system will not be used on a constant basis, (vacations,etc)
    I would like it to be reliable and usable year round. Will the pump
    hold up better since it will only be used occasionally, or would it
    be better off it it was going to be used more often ? I have heard one
    person state that "pumps are nothing but trouble" ? Any opinions or
    experiences ?
    
    			thanks for help
    					Steve

      My  only  direct  experience is with septic pumps that we had in a
      condominium where I used to live. These served ~90 units, so there
      a  little  bit  different than what you'll need for a small cabin,
      but they were a major, ongoing maintenance headache.  We  had  two
      pumps and finally got to the point of buying a third one. (I think
      it cost between $5000-10000) The only way we got ahead  of  things
      was  to  replace  one  of  the  pumps each month with the "spare".
      During the month the pump that was pulled got a thorough cleaning.
      Next month it went back in to replace the third pump. So we rotate
      the pumps with a two month duty cycle and one month  cleaning  and
      backup.

      From  this  experience I tend to agree that "pumps are nothing but
      trouble".  However I'd guess that home pumps are a bit  easier  to
      live with.

      In  fact  my  biggest  concern for "a cabin in Maine" would be the
      electric supply.  No electricity, no flush toilets. Beyond that be
      VERY  careful what goes down the drain.  Although they're supposed
      to be able to handle "sludge" the ones I've seen tend to  clog  up
      on chunks of food or even wads of paper.  If a dishcloth goes down
      the  drain  you've  had  it.   Don't  even  thing  about  flushing
      disposable diapers, sanitary napkins, etc.  (Sorry, but it isn't a
      pleasant subject.)

      So far as the type of septic tank, I don't think it matters.  What
      you DO need is a second, "holding" tank.  This is where  the  pump
      lives. The holding tank is located either in your basement or just
      outside the cabin.  Your  normal  drain  system  drains  into  the
      holding  tank by gravity.  When the holding tank fills up the pump
      is turned on to pump its contents up into the regular septic tank.

      I would guess that intermittent use might be more troublesome than
      every day use.  My concern is that the holding tank and pump might
      dry out, allowing sludge to harden.  This could clog things up and
      make a mess. Perhaps you would want to flush the holding tank with
      clear water when you leave the cabin for a while.

      If you do end up needing a pump, talk with the people who sell and
      install it to be sure you  know  what  preventive  maintenance  it
      needs.   After  all,  if  you've gotta get in it up to your elbows
      you'd like to do it on your schedule, not when it quits at 3:00 am
      some January morning!

      But  if  its possible to get you system working without a pump I'd
      suggest that is what you should do.

    Interesting stuff, and a different setup than I imagined. I have seen
    the systems you are referring to, where the sewage is pumped into the
    septic tank (or sewer line). What I had assumed (maybe incorrectly)
    that I would be dealing with was somewaht different. I thought that
    in my situation I would have the waste/drain flow directly into the
    septic tank (~1000 gallon), which would reside just outside the cabin.
    Then the water from the tank would be pumped uphill to the leaching
    area. Is this an unreal configuration for a system ? If it is possible,
    then I would only be pumping water, and hopefully would avoid the
    problems caused by pumping actual solid waste and sludge. (If I've got
    to pump the sh.. then believe me, I'll try real hard to avoid pumping)
    I'm going to call some contractors in the area, and get some ideas and
    estimates for the job, so I can plan what I need to do. If I can build
    a leach field 6' under, and not pump, then I will.
    
    
    
    				Steve

re.110,.114
The tank is a 1500gal. and is nearly full, within 8 inches of the outlet.
Good suggestion, I will try running the water and check the flow at the inlet
verifying the condition of the waste pipes.  If that's in proper order, I'll
call the installer.  He's one of the 'good-old-boys' in town and gets a lot
of referrals from the officials.   The reason I'm considering digging by hand
is the last pipe in the leach field is within 2ft of one side of the tank.  If
the installer saw signs of machine digging, he'ld likely relate the problem to
that.  I do have a back-hoe but not a license.  Thanks also for the hygiene
concerns, that's a very valid point.  Since I will be callling the installer
I'll not need to worry about that for the moment anyway.  

Thanks for the replies and I'll post the outcome for the general knowledge of
others.

Frank

re: << Note 832.117 by REGENT::BENDEL >>>

>                                                    ... I thought that
>   in my situation I would have the waste/drain flow directly into the
>   septic tank (~1000 gallon), which would reside just outside the cabin.
>   Then the water from the tank would be pumped uphill to the leaching
>   area.  ...

      I've  never  heard  of  or seen such a setup.  Of course I haven't
      heard or or seen EVERYTHING, so I guess is _might_ be possible.
      
      What  is  supposed to happen in the septic tank is that the solids
      either sink or float and then, over time, most of  them  decompose
      into  liquid.  Every so often you have the tank cleaned out to get
      rid of whats left.  Now what would happen if you  put  a  pump  in
      there?   Well, I don't think it would be LESS likely to clog up --
      maybe more so.  And its operation might  upset  the  settling  and
      decomposing  action.   Worst of all, it might pump solids into the
      leach field, which would quickly clog up the field. 
      
      (A  septic  tank  has  baffles  that  keep the inflow from stiring
      things up too much.  Another set of baffles  keeps  floating  crud
      away from the outlet to the leach field.)
      
      In  other  words,  I have doubts.  But check with your engineer or
      installer for the real truth.

    Sounds like a lift station at the D-box.
    
    Erick
    

    re: Note 832.117 by REGENT::BENDEL and .119.
    
    I have a setup like the one mentioned.  Essentially, the main drain
    comes out of the house and goes into the septic tank.  There everything
    separates into its layers.  From this there is a pipe that usually
    would go to your leach field, but instead goes to a pump chamber.  From
    this chamber, the fluid is pumped up ( like 4-5 ft) to the leech field.
    
    I do have a question about my particular setup.
    
    One problem with this setup is that our field is saturating, ( see a
    previous reply ) and the water keeps backing up into the pump chamber. 
    This causes the pump to keep turning on.  I was considering installing
    some kind of one way valve on the leech filed pipe to stop this.   Has
    anyone had any experience with one way valves in this type of setup?
    
    thanks,
    Rick
    

    RE .121
    
    A pump station (and I've only heard of these where they are after the
    septic tank) with a check valve is a bad idea.  The gray water trapped
    in the line is likely to freeze.  Also, and this is an installer's
    opinion and not my own, the trapped water causes extra strain on the
    pump as it "expects" to pump the water through an unrestricted line.
    
    If I had your problem with the pump cycles, I'd show someone else that
    wanted to learn how to adjust the floats in the pump chamber.  If
    available, check the design plan.  It should include the number of
    gallons of backflow.  With that figure and pump station capacities,
    the floats are pretty simple to adjust (although a much nicer job of
    pointing to the adjusters rather than actually doing it).
    

re: << Note 832.121 by ROCK::FRIEDMAN >>>
>    One problem with this setup is that our field is saturating, 

      If  your  leach field is saturating you need to replace/repair the
      leach field.  A check valve or any other type of  fix  is  not  an
      option. 
      
      However,  it  may  not be a leach field problem.  As another reply
      suggested, an adjustment to the  float  (or  other  control)  that
      operates the lift pump might be in order.  Possibly the difference
      between the high limit and the low limit is too little.   The  the
      pump turns on at the high limit and runs until the level gets down
      to the low limit.  If this difference is LESS than the  amount  of
      liquid  that drains back when the pump stops you'll have a problem
      like you describe.

      But  if  the  amount  draining back is excessive because the field
      isn't working then you will, as I said,  have  to  fix  the  field
      problem.       

>               ... From [the septic tank]  there is a pipe that usually
> would go to your leach field, but instead goes to a pump chamber.  ...
      
      Well, thats a new one for me.  Obviously it works.  And it answers
      my objection about having the pump in the septic tank itself.   It
      also seems it puts the pump in a kinder and gentler location where
      I'd expect it to operate with less trouble.  If this fits with the
      physical  restrictions  of your site it sounds like the way to go,
      provided you can't get away without a pump.

    An engineering study I had performed last Friday indicated the field
    was a complete failure (after 20 months).  The entire field must be
    removed, moved 10 feet downslope, and replaced.
    
    Bottom line appears to be that the builder used "on-site materials"
    rather than hauling cellar excavation material away and hauling in
    appropriate materials for the leach field.
    
    Builder has agreed to repair the problem.  The engineer who did the
    study indicated that this is a rarity (only 3 contractractors out of
    about 100 problems he's checked in the past 3 years agreed to fix
    without a court battle).
    
    I end up losing 10 trees, my back yard for however long it takes to fix
    and grow grass.  I gain a slightly bigger yard, but big deal...what an
    aggravation.
    
    	Ted

    Just out of curiosity, will they start building the new field first so
    you can go about your daily lives (being able to flush and things like
    that)?
    
    Dave

I've been told that the health inspector has to see that the leach field was 
put in with the right depth of gravel or whatever is the required material.  
Why didn't they catch it -- did they sign off without looking at it?

	Just curious,
	Larry

    re: the last couple
    
    The builder stated that the entire field could be removed and replaced
    in a day.  I'm a bit skeptical, but then again I'm not in that
    business.
    
    It's not a health inspector, but rather a building inspector. 
    Curiously, they are required to check the progress at various points
    during the process, but one thing they don't have to verify is the
    materials used to construct the field.
    
    Hopefully, this time around, folks (including myself) will be paying a
    bit more attention.
    
    	Ted

    I'm currently trying to do everything I can to perc a 1.5 acre area opf
    land in Rockport, Mass. There is plenty of ledge (after all, it isn't
    called Rockport for nothing) and a backhoe only managed to go down 
    about 18-24 inches before hitting rock. Now we are trying a large piece
    of equipment at a cost of $1000 per day, in case any of the Ledge is
    really Boulders. If that fails, I'm wondering if anyone knows whether
    any kind of seismological survey could be done in case we're missiong
    any spots, or whether that would be prohibitively exepensive. I admit
    it sounds strange but the 3 lots into which the 1.5 acres is divided
    are very desirable and are worth some considerable change even in
    today's market. Failing that, I've heard that explosives aren't legal
    for blasting away ledge for sewerage system installation, though it
    seems to be quite the vogue for foundation work. Does anyone know where
    the state and town regulations differ, and in general make any
    suggestions. I do have a copy of the Mass laws on siting septic systems
    but these seem pretty recondite.

	We recently have been experiencing difficulties with our septic system.
	I was hoping someone could provide advice on how we should proceed.
	

	We live in a fairly new building, 3 years old.  It is a building with
	four townhouses in it and all four units share the same septic system.
	For the first year and a half everything was fine.  However, we've
	had it emptied several times in the past year and we've been told it's
	all full of water! The distribution box is full and when we have it pumped
	water keeps pouring in.  The guy filled his truck and could have come
	back a second time.

	We have had the Town Board of Health and the Engineering firm who 
    	designed it over to look at it.  Right now our front yard is all
    	dug up and our conclusion is that it was installed improperly.
    
    	No gravel seems to have been put in but rather the eight holding 
    	tanks were installed in sub-soil.

	We told the Board of Health that we wanted a second engineering opinion
	and gave them the name of the company we were going to call.  Someone
	from the Board of Health went to that firm and told them not to get
	involved! Can you believe this!

	We've sent a certified letter to the Builders warning them that we will
	be taking action on this.

	Any other suggestions?

	Judy

RE: << Note 3587.7 by FSHQA1::JRUSSELL >>>
      
      I don't understand something.
      
>    	No gravel seems to have been put in but rather the eight holding 
>    	tanks were installed in sub-soil.
      
      Four  town  houses,  One  septic system and "eight holding tanks"?
      This is  something  new  to  me.   Could  you  offer  a  bit  more
      explanation?   Might you be referring to the distribution lines in
      the leach field?  Eight of those would seem about right. Also, not
      having  proper  gravel  around the distribution lines could easily
      cause them to become clogged.  That is, these lines are perforated
      with  small holes that should allow the liquid from your system to
      drain into the  ground.   These  holes  can  become  clogged  with
      mud/clay  etc.   if  they  aren't  installed in a proper of gravel
      and/or crushed stone.  If they are  clogged  it  would  cause  the
      symptoms you describe.
      
      As  for  the  Board of Health telling your second engineering firm
      not to get involved, I don't know.  Do the Board and the  original
      engineering firm agree that the system was installed wrong?  
      
      If  the  Board and the original engineering agree then you already
      have two  opinions  --  one  from  the  Board  and  one  from  the
      engineering  firm  which designed the system.  Do you need another
      opinion? Maybe the board feels that the problem is understood well
      enough that another opinion is not called for. (They might even be
      saving you money!)

      If the Board and/or the original engineering firm don't agree with
      you the what is/are their opinion(s)?
      
      Unless  you've done something strange an abusive to it, a properly
      designed, properly installed septic system should NOT  fail  in  3
      years.   I  would  think  that you should have some legal recourse
      against the firm that designed it or  the  installer.   (Or  maybe
      both?)  
      
      DISCLAIMER: I'm neither a civil engineer nor a lawyer, so probably
      the best advice I can offer is this:  If the people  who  designed
      and  installed  you system don't act fairly quickly to correct the
      problem you may want to hire  a  lawyer,  rather  than  getting  a
      second engineering opinion.

    You are right about the distribution lines.  All of this terminology
    is new to me.
                                                    
    The original engineer and the Town have not come out and stated
    for a fact that it was installed improperly.  Everyone is being
    very wishy washy and really leaving the burden of proof on us.
    
    It's amazing what ties these contractors have.  We called another
    engineer yesterday and he said he wouldn't get involved because
    he knows the installer.
    
    We did talk to a lawyer and he said at this point we should continue
    pursuing it with the engineers and get in writing what needs to
    be done to fix the problem.  Then present this to the builders,
    original engineers and Town.  If they don't respond, then the lawyer
    will get involved.
     
    

    I don't remember seeing this discussed so here goes.
    
    I am in the process of having the septice system some land I bought
    redesigned (The current plan calls for the leaching fields to be
    located dead center in the lot much to my dislike).  After doing the
    deep-hole tests (perc have not yet been done), there are two possible
    locations for the leaching fields.
    
    1. Locate fields on left front side of property.  The perc rates
       were estimated (quessed?) to be 10min.  The problem with this
       location is that the elevation is 6ft higher than were I will
       be locating the house.  This leaves two options.  One, using
       a pump or two, regrading using lots of fill (~200 yards).
    
    2. Locate the fields on the right front side of the property where
       the guesstimated per rates are 15min.
    
    
    The engineer originally suggested going with the left side (better perc
    rates but mucho fill).  After some discussion (My opinion was that if
    the leach fields for the right area would have to be larger to
    accomodate the slower perc rates, should'nt the end result be the
    same?), he has agreed with me on having the perc tests done on the
    right side.  Am I right?  Is there any difference in a septic system
    having a 10 or 15min perc???  
    
    To compicate matter, my town will only allow 4 perc test holes to be
    done at one time.  If the right side turns out to be really bad, I'll
    have to pay for getting another test done and having the plan
    redesigned.
    
    Suggestions???
    
    Thanks,
    Mike 
    
    

    I *think* the cutoff point for perks is 30 minutes, so 15 minutes
    is still well within established limits.  I doubt that the difference
    between 10 and 15 minutes is worth worrying about.  Go with the
    easiest site to use.  My opinion.

    Get a copy of the code/laws for septic systems I recall something like
    "Title 5" as part of the name of this... your local board of health or
    library should be able to help.  That will define how a perc test has
    to be done.  You could do your own perc testing first, just to see how
    well each area percs.
    
    I'd be wary of "guesstimated" perc rates.

The perc rate (and number of bedrooms) determines the size of the field.  A 
1000 sq ft field which required 2 feet of fill would probably be much cheaper 
than a 700 sq ft field which required 6 feet of fill.

Perc both spots and do some rough calculations with the septic installer about 
fill costs and field sizes.  Of course your quick calculations won't be as 
accurate as a fully designed plan, but if the monetary difference is not clear 
from rough calculations then it doesn't make much difference anyway.

Cost isn't the only factor.  I'd pay an extra $500-$1000 to have a system 
without a pump, simply to not have to ever worry about the pump failing.  The 
visual and landscaping effects of the site choice will also have an effect, 
although those usually only come into play if the prices are close.  

Paul

    continuation of .115, .116, and so on
    
    I have discussed what I need with two differnet septic system
    installers, and here is what I have found out.
    
    The way the system is setup is that there is a "pump tank", which
    is a septic tank with an extra chamber built-in to accomadate the
    pump. This type of tank costs between $130 and $200 more, depending
    on which contractor you listen too.
    
    The pump (which only pumps water, not sewage), costs between $290
    and $350, again depending on the contractor.
    
    So, the total increase in cost for this type of system over a
    conventional gravity drain is $420-$550. Both installers say that
    if you buy a good pump (the best is $350), then the pump system
    is trouble free, and that the pumps will last "years" (don't ask
    how many).
    
    I definitely am going to need this kind of system, and while it is more
    expensive, it doesn't cost drastically more, and it doesn't sound like
    the "constant trouble" system that I was worried it might be.
    
    
    
    	
    				steve

<.110 by SOLAR1::FERREIRA >
	The long and short of the discussion in .110 and .118.   I contacted
	both the original installer and several other installers in my area
	and the Board of Health.  The all had the same answer.  Wait a while
	and see if it clogs itself before disrupting the system.  I checked
	the system again 2 weeks ago.  It has again reached the appropriate
	level and seems to be operating correctly.  I can only assume it has
	plugged itself.  Though I cannot do a gallon for gallon comparison
	of input/output, I have observed the outflow whilst someone else 
	flushed the toilets and also when the bathtub was drained after my
	kids bath.  My general observation is it is very close to 1:1.  I guess
	the moral is not to jump to conclusions and worries.  Wait it out 'til
	there's no other choice, (within healthful reason of course).

:-)
Frank
	

    How far should my deep water well be from my septic tank and/or septic
    outlet from my house?  (I haven't seen this discussed elsewhere.)
    
    My current well is running dry.  So, I plan to drill a new one.  Most
    wells in my area are at least 500 feet.  As a matter of fact, my next
    door neighbor has one 1200 feet.
    
    My well company, Skillings and Company, recommends that we try drilling
    as far away from my current well and my neighbor's well as possible. 
    He figures that we would probably get a better well back there.
    
    The problem is that the site they picked is 85 feet from the septic
    outlet of my house and also 85 feet from the septic outlet of my
    neighbors house.  (By outlet, I mean the place where the septic leaves
    my foundation into the underground pipes.)  It is even closer to the
    tank, but much much further away from the leaching field.
    
    Now, the Town of Boxborough requires that a well be at least 100 feet
    from the septic system.  My driller says that most towns require only
    50 feet and that he will ask for a variance from the Board of Health in
    Boxborough for 85 feet.
    
    What do you think?
    
    - Is 100 feet a real minimum?  Should I worry about 85 feet?
    
    - What is the risk if the worst happens?  As a matter of fact, what
      is the worst that could happen and what is my risk?
    
    By the way, the well would be up hill from my septic, but about level
    with my neighbors'.
    
    Any comments or advise would be appreciated.  The B of H meeting is
    Wednesday night and I'd like some thoughts before we request the
    variance.
    
    Thanks
    
    Roger

I *think* that regulations in New York State is a well must be 50 feet from the
tank, and 100 feet from the leaching field.  I'll have to ask my father to be
sure, he knows this stuff.  Of course this doesn't help you, except give you an
idea what the rules elsewhere are.  I'd personally recommend not skimping on
the distance from the leaching field myself. 

-Mike

    Don't skimp.  I had to drill a new well because the old well got
    contaminated.  I don't *know* it was from the septic, but when I
    tested the water I kept getting coliform bacteria, even after
    repeated attempts at chlorination.  In that case, the well was
    uphill, on the other side of the house, from the septic system.
    It was probably about 50' or so.  Now, it was an old well; the
    casing might have cracked; the seal into the bedrock might have
    gone; it might have been no good to begin with; it was only about
    70' deep anyway; with a new well, you might be fine.  But why take
    a chance.
    
    Notice that "uphill" is a rather meaningless concept when applied
    to a well that's, say, 200' deep.  The bottom of the well is "downhill"
    from almost anything for quite a distance around.

    Don't know if this applies to your septic design, but new ones require
    a "backup" field. I would assume you'd want your new well the same
    distance away from the backup area.
    
    John

    The distance from the leeching field and the back-up is no problem.  It
    is actually several hundred feet away.  The only issue is the septic
    tank itself and the outlet from my house.
    
    Your advice is welcome.
    
    Roger

I've been going through the process of getting our existing septic system
re-approved (in order to put on an addition).

The Stow regulations say wells must be 150' from the leaching area (that's the
perimiter of the gravel, not the pipes or tank).  The leaching area must also
be 100' from any wetlands.

The Massachusetts regulations are 100' from the leaching area to a well and
50' to wetlands.

The state will grant variances if the local Board of Health approves it, and
it meets their approval too.

My septic system is at the intersection of 100' from mine and my neighbor's
wells and 50' from wetlands.  The actual perimiter of the two leaching
chambers puts that 84' from my well, 94' from my neighbor's, and about
50' from the wetlands.  Since this system was not originally approved
by the state, it now needs the variances for us to add a bedroom (even
though the net change in bedrooms is zero).

If I were you I would check out the regulations for your town berfore
doing any work.
                                   --tom

>  Since this system was not originally approved
>  by the state, it now needs the variances for us to add a bedroom (even
>  though the net change in bedrooms is zero).

Good brief!  Fortunately, it is not that way in Boylston.  Although I have
a leach field, the town lists me as having a cesspool, because there are no 
records of it.  However, the previous owners added three bedrooms, and our 
building inspector approved it, since their plans specified converting the 
existing three bedrooms into a den, a study, and a laundry room.  All our
inspector cared about was that it remained officially a 3 bedroom house.

Anyway, I think it's a good idea to not only check out the town regulations, 
but to also get friendly with the inspectors and find out just exactly what 
they are willing to go along with.  To the first order, the regulations are
whatever they say they are.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

re: .5, .6

Sometimes you just need to choose your words carefully.  If you start out by
saying that you're going to add a bedroom, they may not get to the point where
you say you're also going to delete a bedroom.  Just rewording how you say
things, as in "we're going to change an existing bedroom into an X, and 
add on a new bedroom to replace the one we eliminated" at least increases your
chances that they'll understand exactly what your doing, and why you think it is
reasonable.

Not that that guarantees anything.  In Townsend, the rules are written to be
fail-safe, in the following sense.  If a room could be used as a bedroom, and if 
it isn't clearly some other type of room from a fixed list (living room, 
dining room, etc., but probably not library), then it must be considered a
bedroom.  The motivation for this is understandable, since it could be very
difficult to prevent some future owner from converting your new library or
den back into a bedroom.  That doesn't make it seem any less unfair, though.
You can sometimes work with the board or building inspector on this, by
agreeing to remove closets from the old rooms, or add built-in furniture, or
otherwise make sure that it can't easily be converted back into a bedroom.
It helps if they're cooperative, but it can't hurt to ask.

   Gary

      I   have   seen   one  case,  several  years  ago,  in  which  the
      distinguishing characteristic of a "bedroom" was that it  had  one
      or more closets.  With no closet it could be called a "library" or
      "den"; with a closet it was a bedroom.  
      
      The  interesting  thing  is  that this restricted the builder from
      calling the house a "three  bedroom  home",  even  though  it  was
      obvious that it could be used that way and probably would.
      
      But  the  count  of "bedrooms" as distinguished by closets was the
      statistic that drove the septic system sizing. This was the reason
      for the problem, as the area had marginal perk conditions.

    Getting back to the base note .....
    
    The Town of Boxborough tells me that the state standard is that the
    well must be at least 50' from the closest point of the septic system. 
    That could either be the outlet from the house or the septic tank
    itself.
    
    Boxborough, and many towns served by the Nashoba Board of Health,
    request a 100 foot requirement for the extra safety margin.
    
    The issue is if the septic tank breaks.  Apparently, you could be right
    next to the tank with your well of you could guarantee that it would never
    ever break.  Of course, nobody can guarantee that, so the distance is a
    safety factor to make sure that waste/bacteria doesn't enter your water
    supply should the tank crack or a fitting fail.  At least, they figure
    that by the time the waste travelled 100 feet, you would notice it and
    stop drinking from your well.
    
    I decided to live with the 87-foot distance.  That exceeds the state
    requirements and doesn't seem to be a problem under reasonable
    circumstances.
    
    Thanks for the comments.
    
    Roger
    

        As has been noted above, the state standard for separation
        between the well and septic system is 50'.  In some towns
        this is more;  for example, in Groton this is 100'.

        Also note that if the well is a shallow well and the pump is
        a suction pump, the minimum distance applies to the entire
        suction line as well as to the well itself.  (This is in case
        a leak develops in the suction line resulting in ground water
        being sucked in.)

        Bob

    
    	I have a house that has a septic system , and I would like to put
    in a garbage disposer. Would it be advisable for me to put one in, or 
    would it mess up my septic system? 
    	
    	People have told me that it is like adding another person to the 
    house.
    	Do I have to get it cleaned out more often? 
    

I'm sure that there's something on this buried somewhere in some note, but I'm
not going to try to find it.

Have at it again here.

I've heard everything from "Don't do it, it will wreck your septic system" to
"It's actually GOOD for your septic system because it adds some of the right
sort of bacteria and food for them" and everything in between.  So don't be
surprised if you don't get a consensus opinion.

Paul

I've gotten by without a disposer my whole life.  Since there is additional
risk (due to the non-consensus on the compatibility of disposers/septics)
why take the chance?  

I personally rate garbage disposers equivalently with "trash compactors"
in terms of being worthwhile.

  Steve

    
     Find a copy of your septic plan and read all the print on it. Mine
    plan states its not for use with a disposal. It might be worthwhile
    to check with your town's health inspector.
    
    		Wayne

From: Septic Systems "How they work and how to keep them working 
in Vermont"

DON'T use a garbage grinder. Waste from garbage grinders will not 
only fill your septic tank rapidly and require more frequent 
pumping but will also float and increase the scum blanket 
thickness. This will eventually spill into the effluent pipe and 
clog the leaching system.

Do compost your garbage or put it in the trash.

Hope this helps.

daryll

    I have a new house with a septic system and a garbage grinder. (trash
    compactor too) When our system was being designed we told the officals
    that we would have a disposer, so the system was sized with that in
    mind. Instead of only having one tank it has two. One is 500 gal and
    the other is 600 gal, this provides sufficent capacity for a four
    bedroom house and the disposer. Of course if I am canning or making a
    large quantity of garbage, I take it to the compost pile. It is real
    handy to be able to grind up the little things. The trash compactor is
    used for paper only and to smash plastic bottles for recylcing. No wet
    garbage is put in it and we only empty it every 3-4 weeks. The two
    together compliment each other.
    Sandy
    

    I suspect that the impact of a disposal on a septic system
    depends on how the disposal is used.  For example, we don't
    use ours as a general garbage disposal; all it's used for is
    getting rid of the stuff that rinses off of plates and
    cooking pots.  We seldom put real garbage down it.
    Rich

Well, we always had one until we moved into a house with a septic system.
Now I can't remember what it was good for.  We toss vegetable waste into
a plastic bowl with a lid, and dump it into the compost bin every few days.  
Fat, bones, and so forth we drop into a plastic grocery bag or the like 
(they collect inspite of our best efforts), tie the top shut and toss it 
into a garbage bag that is emptied weekly. Anything that's too small or 
too soft to scrape into the bag goes down our drain with no problems.
The only things we'd really have to use a disposall on shouldn't go
into our septic system anyway.  I guess the moral of the story is that we 
readjusted our lives not to need a disposall, and we spent the money
(including the more frequent cleanings of our septic tank) on things
that we need or enjoy a lot more.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    -.1  Wow, great minds think alike.
    
    Our garbage disposer broke about a week after we moved into our house
    10 years ago.  I took it out, replaced it with pipe and we've never
    looked back.  We had always had one before, but we have never missed
    it.  As far as procedure goes, we do everything exactly like -.1
    described.
    					- Vick

re: .5

Those sizes you quote are too small for your purposes, at least by all the
standards I've seen for single tank systems.

The general capacity calculations go like this:  The septic tank should be big
enough to hold 3 days worth of waste, since that's how long it takes for the
anaerobic bacteria in the tank to do their thing.  Figure 55 gallons per person
per day (high, but it's a standard figure), two people per bedroom (again, 
that's high, but septic systems are usually sized using a worst-case 
assumption on house occupancy), and the result for the usual 3 bedroom house is

    55 gal/day/person * 2 persons/bedroom * 3 bedrooms * 3 days = 990 gallons

which is why the typical 3 bedroom house has a 1000 gallon tank.  Many towns,
including mine, require a minimum 3-bedroom design, even if you're only 
building two bedrooms.  For 4-bedrooms, they start to loosen up, since this
really is over-engineering, by setting the standard at 1200 or 1250, even
though the calculations come out to 1320 gallons.

There's a certain justification in designing high, because peak loads can be 
more significant than average loads.  Any time you feed water, with or
without waste, into the septic system at a rate faster than the tank can 
process its waste, you run the risk of shoving solids (in suspension) out to
the leach field.  For that reason, we try to spread out the load on the septic
system by doing some laundry during the week, instead of saving it all for the
weekends (for example).

Two-tank systems are relatively new.  One book I've seen recommends them highly,
since they do a better job of processing waste.  It's possible that having
a two-tank system allows you to use a lower total capacity (1100 gallons in 
this case) than you'd need for a single tank, but I don't know for sure.

re: garbage disposals

I agree with the last few notes about garbage disposals - they don't do enough
to justify their costs, and they do put a load on the septic system.  In 
Townsend, our kitchen waste is picked up as a separate garbage pickup, to be
turned into pig food.  (I'm glad I don't eat pork.)

Trash compactors are another story.  If your trash is currently going to
a landfill, and if the landfill doesn't have an efficient compactor (as 
opposed to a steamroller, or other inefficient compactor), then having your own
compactor really does reduce the volume of material that you're sending to 
the landfill, and that's important.  In some areas, this is reflecting in actual
costs.  I have friends living in Berlin, MA who bought a compactor because their
(privately contracted) trash hauler charged by the bag.  Presumably the hauler
pays tipping fees based on volume instead of weight (or perhaps it's just a
function of handling and truck capacity).

   Gary

re: "Presumably the hauler
pays tipping fees based on volume instead of weight"
    
    It's easier to count than to weigh.  :-)
    
    I hauled garbage for a year, actually rendering, supposedly we
    weighed but really we counted and SWAG'd a weight.
    
    ed

Ok my new house has a similar problem as .0's.  I smell sewage at ground level
when working in the back yard.  I am VERY close to the clean-out and I think
this may be the problem.  There is VERY little dirt over the clean out.  I
would estimate at 2-6 inches of soil.  Could the smell being coming from the
clean-out opening (cement)?

Brian

My cleanouts are exposed.  No noticable odor working around them.  
I have had sewage odors occasionally, but not near the cleanouts --
mine came from one end of the leach field (next to the steep slope,
could be I get some leakage to the surface on the slope sometimes).

Does the sewage smell get noticably stronger as you approach the
cleanouts?  Not to be gross, but have you tried laying down next
to the cleanouts?  If that's the source of the odor, I think it
would get a *lot* stronger when you get right up next to them.
Like, overpowering.  If it doesn't, it must be something else.

	Larry

I've always noticed a septic odor in my yard after I've had the tank pumped.
Sometimes the odor last for several months. I always assumed it was 
probably caused by a deficiency of bacteria in the tank after pumping,
and the passage of time (and wastes) served to recharge the tank.

re .22:
	That may be the problem.  This is a brand new home that was
sitting for about 2 months after the system was complete before the
tank saw any normal flow of -whatever-.  
	I will wait a few more months before complaining.  I do think I
will add a little more soil over the clean-out.  The wire handle is
almost sticking out of the ground.

Brian

    Re .23
    
    If you suspect that the problem may be a lack of hungry bugs, you
    should be aware that you can buy a bottle of bugs at the corner
    hardware store.  For less than ten bucks, it couldn't hurt and it
    might help.
    
    pbm
    

re: .24

I've never seen any independent confirmatioon (i. e. from someone who doesn't 
make money selling those alleged bugs, and has more than anecdotal evidence) 
that those over-the-counter septic remedies work.

One piece of independent advice that I have seen is don't wash out the septic
tank when it's pumped.  Leave the residue on the sides and bottom of the tank
as a starter for future use.

   Gary

    re .25
    
    Kinda like how you make yogurt. 8-)
    
    Bob

    
    	This seems like the right place for my question...
    
    	My kids, 8 and 4, use a mound of toothpaste when they brush.
    	The sink in the bathroom seem sto be getting plugged up with
    	probably the toothpaste.  I'd like to use drano or something 
    	similar to get rid of the toothpaste gob but i don't know 
    	how safe it would be in a septic system.
    
    	Can anyone comment?
    
    	-TB

    Draino is NOT good stuff.  Not only is it bad for your septic system,
    but also can melt the waste pipes if they are plastic.  What you need
    is to mechanically remove that gob of toothpaste with a snake or take
    apart the trap to physically clean it.  Draino is supposed to work on
    organic things like hair, etc.  I'm not sure toothpaste would be
    dissolved by Draino, and it might even cause a reaction that could
    bubble up dangerously in the sink.  Draino is caustic soda with
    aluminum chips to make it heat up.  It can cause severe burns of the
    skin and eyes.  It should only be used, if at all, on systems that have
    cast iron pipes.  I don't like it's use at all because it's really
    environmentally hazardous.
    
    If the blockage is not too far down the drain, you might try a bottle
    brush tied to a stiff piece of wire (like a coat hanger).  I've done
    that as well. 

re .135:

Drano is no problem, as long as you follow directions and don't overdo it.
This means use COLD water if they state so.  While I doubt it can get hot
enough to melt plastic (it can't get much hotter than the boiling point
of water) hot water can cause dangerous spattering.  To be sure, read the
label to see if they say it's safe for septic systems.  Both my can of lye
(active ingredient of Drano) and my can of (non-Drano) drain cleaner say it's
safe for septic systems and pipes.  The drain cleaner specifically mentions
"safe for PVC pipes".

Lye is a chemical that while nasty when concentrated, it isn't a problem
when diluted enough, and will be neutralized by any acids.  It won't be a
problem by the time it leaches from the leach field, especially with acid
rain.

-Mike

    I've never had a problem with Drano and I have the same problem of
    two kids who seem to delight in glomming up their bathroom with 
    toothpaste (seems to be a kind of revenge built into kids).
    
    Besides, isn't Drano in a plastic bottle to begin with?  I'm not 
    a rocket scientist (my mother made me give it up when I almost blew
    my brother's head off with one of those water powered rockets years
    ago) but if Drano doesn't eat through it's own container, it can't
    affect PVC piping, can it?  Follow the directions and you should 
    have no problem.  
    
    Frank

    
    Well, I'm no rocket scientist either, but I think dry Drano and wet
    Drano are two different animals.
    
    CQ 

Well I'm no rocket scientist either, but what are you people talking about
when you say safe for your septic system. Will lye disintegrate the septic
tank itself? Maybe not. But... will it kill the bacteria that "work" in the
septic tank to break down the solids? I think so. The same goes for bleach
that's poored down with every load of laundry water. If your sink gets clogged
all the time isn't it easier to get your kids to use less toothpaste or use
a snake to clean the clog???

    ...is with water pressure.  I'm pretty sure I saw the technique
    somewhere in here, but can't recall where.  All you have to do is stick
    a garden hose in the drain, wrap a rag around the opening so water
    won't spray back at you, and turn it on full blast.  It helps to have a
    shutoff at the end of the hose, so you can stop the water if the drain
    doesn't clear right away.  Once the clog clears, keep the water running
    through the hose full force, and try to snake the hose down the pipe a
    ways.  This should completely clear out the drain lines.  I've done
    this a few times with *great* success.
    
    You can buy an attachment for the end of the hose to help do this. 
    It's a rubber bladder that fills with water, to block the drain
    opening, then blasts the pipes clear.  I've found that wrapping a rag
    around the hose accomplishes the same thing.  
    
    /Don

Where did all the rocket scientists go?

    This approach is pretty low tech, so it probably won't be very popular,
    but here goes.  It did work on the last two serious drain clogs I had.
    
    Try a plunger.  But do the following first.
    
    1. Fill the sink with at least two inches of water.
    
    2. Coat the rim of the plunger with a thin layer of Vaseline (or
       generic equivalent.
    
    3. Plug the little safety drain hole at the top of the sink with a wet
       cloth.
    
    4. As you place the plunger over the drain, angle it to allow as much
       air as possible to escape from under the plunger.
    
    5. Start the plunging motion and *keep at it*.  It might take all of
       30-60 seconds to clear the drain.
    
    BTW, I am a rocket scientist 8-)
    
    Bob
    
    

All of the literature I've read on septic systems says, in no uncertain terms,
that chemical drain cleaners are bad for the septic system, precisely because
they kill the bacteria needed for proper functioning of the system.

In the long run, using the plunger method described previously or a snake will
be cheaper, safer, and more reliable.

   Gary

PS  It is possible for the temperature to get significantly above the boiling
point of pure water.  The boiling point of a solution of a chemical in water
(in this case, NaOH) is measurably higher than the boiling point of 
distilled water.  The solution you create when you pour a drain cleaner
containing lye into a sink trap is moderately concentrated.  I don't know
whether it actually gets hot enough to melt the plastic, but it can get
hot enough to cause a heat burn, independently of any chemical burn.  (In other
words, use caution touching the pipes after pouring Drano down the drain.)

>   Where did all the rocket scientists go?

    Recent evidence would suggest ... not to NASA!

    Try hot water, it dissolves toothpaste nicely, and doesn't hurt your
    septic tank... :+)
    
    Willie

    Speaking of rocket scientists ... someone posted a Dan Quayle calendar
    published by the Dan Quayle quarterly report.  On the first month is a
    picture of Danny boy speaking to an astronaut in a space suit ...
    
    "Mars is essentially in the same orbit ... somewhat the same distance
    from the  sun, which is very important.  We have seen pictures where
    there are canals, we believe, and water.  If there is water, that means
    there is oxygen.  If oxygen, that means we can breathe."
    
    The scary part of this story ... remember, the VP is in charge of the
    space program.  'Oh no, Auntee Em...'

    Just one other point about Drano:  I remember taking a course a
    few years back on environmental safety and related topics, and
    the instructor pointed out that Drano is the number 1 leading cause
    of blindness in the US.  People pour the stuff in, and then try
    to peer down the drain to see if it's working.  Some of the NaOH
    will shoot out the drain as a result of all of the bubbling etc
    that goes on.  
    
    Nasty stuff.
    
    Greg B.

re Drano and blindness:

I'd be more likely to believe that it's the number one cause of *accidental*
blindness.  Glaucoma's probably the number one cause of blindness.

    
    	Well, I've tried the "low-tech" approach, the "hot-water" approach,
    	the "water-blaster" approach and even the "Kids-stop-using-half-a-
    	tube-of-Aim-per-brushing!" approach.  Still fills up the sink in a
    	manner of minutes!  I'll take the trap apart and try snaking.
    
    	Maybe I'll get rid of the kids...
    
    	Thanks for the responses so far!
    
    	-Tony

	I had a recurring problem with one of our bathroom sinks not
draining properly.  After trying a dozen solutions (all those presented
earlier) I took out the stopper assembly and found the problem was a build
up of crud on the 'leg' of the stopper.

	--------------
	\	     /
	 \          /
	  |  c | c |	Crud build up was in the channels.
	  |  r | r |
	  |  u | u |
	  |  d | d |
	  |    |   |
	  |    |   |
	  |    |   |
	  |        |
	   \      /
	    \    /
	     \  /

re .151:

Nice graphics.  Sort of like an upside-down rocket.  Are you a rocket scientist?

re .152:

>Nice graphics.  Sort of like an upside-down rocket.  Are you a rocket scientist?

No, a rocket scientist would probably know that the pointy end goes up.

-Mike

>>No, a rocket scientist would probably know that the pointy end goes up.
    
    At least, they used to.

    re 151
    
    Actually you just may be a rocket Scientist,,, I would think that your
    design would work quite well if fired from China!!!
    
    Sorry ,, couldn't resist.
    
    Bruce

    I'm having problems with my septic tank filling up with ground water.
    The groundwater used to go to the back of the property through a system
    of drain tiles.  The drain tile has broken up and is causing a blockage
    at at least one point.  We may have also contributed to the problem by
    building a deck last year - and causing more water to be directed to
    the septic tank area.
    My septic guys tell me the solution is to put in a lift system.  When
    it fills it will pump water out through the septic system's
    distribution box.  This sounds somewhat reasonable, but the $2500 price
    makes me want to look for other alternatives.  
    Could I reliably solve the problem with landscaping or redoing the
    draintile (I have a large lot, so it would be no small undertaking) or
    something else I'm not considering?  Or is this a standard solution and 
    I should just swallow hard and get out my checkbook?
    
    Thanks,
    Gail

RE: .0

Septic tanks are supposed to be full (of sewage).  If you add a pump to it,
you would be defeating the purpose.  Are you sure it's your septic *tank*
that's getting filled with groundwater?  Also, I'm not sure what you mean
by groundwater-- this usually refers to water from the underground, at
the watertable.  If this is the case, you will need not only a lift but
a different location for your leaching field.  Possibly you mean surface
water?
                    --tom

The world is full of people who know expensive solutions to problems.
Before spending $2500, I would try adjusting the grading in some fashion
to redirect surface water away from the septic system, if possible.  Is
it possible to fix the blocked sections of the drainage tile? Can the
water that your deck sends toward the septic system be directed away
from the septic system?  If you can't adjust ground level to direct
water away from your septic system, perhaps you could build a simple
landscape timber retaining wall to help direct water in a different
direction than the slope that leads to your septic system.  It's hard to
be concrete without knowing more details about your lot, but IMHO, a
pump is the *last* resort when there are surface water problems.
It may be necessary, but everything else should be ruled out first.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Intresting problem , the tank filling with ground water. This would
    mean that the water table is at the height of your weeping bed .
     In my area that is illegal , they do a perk test and examine the
    soil for irom markings to see the normal high water mark and the
    drainage capability of the soil. 
    
     The true fix would be to raise the weeping bed and backfill, then
    the tank would be the wrong height so you would have to pump
    up to it. Sounds real expensive . 
    
     A drainage ditch might lower the nearby water table if thats possible.
    
    How did you verify the ground water is filling up the tank ? 
    
    John

    How would ground water get into the tank? It is supposed to hold water
    in! If it is holding it in, it is also keeping it out.
    
    The tank is supposed to hold stuff coming out of the house, let the
    little microbes transform the bad guck into less bad guck, and then have
    the overflow run out the pipes into the leach field. 
    
    Unless water is backing up the distribution pipes or there is a crack
    in the tank, I don't know how water would get in. If the tank seems to
    be filled, it would seem to me because the leaching field is not
    working as it should. If that is the case, $2500 would be a bargain,
    but not for a pump!
    
    John H.

    	That's right. It sounds to me as though the leaching field is
    backing up into the tank. I would doubt that the water table is so
    high that it's running off into the tank. A previous suggestion to
    steer rain/runoff water away from the tank is also a good idea.

    My Leach field was leaking and I thought they are failing. I had not
    had the tank pumped for 2 years. The Pumper person said that if I have
    it pumped more often that the leak may stop. She also said that I may
    want to have a Baking Soda treatment, has anyone heard of this ?

    
    	I just had my system pumped-after 6 years(!).  The people who did
    mine did an "Acid Treatment".  (Perhaps they meant acid reduction ??)
    
    
    	You shouldn't get too woried about a little moisture-as long as
    it's not flowing, and there is no odor.  Odor means you should get it
    pumped.  
    
    	ALSO DON'T FORGET to use Rid-X, or some such product.  Replacement/
    recharge of the bacteria is done by me every 6 mo.
    
    		CP
    

    The grass over the septic tank, suddenly dried out.
    Does it mean anything? Do I get a signal? Is it normal?
    demetri

Re: .14

Is this your first year in the house?  Grass drying out is sometimes
very common if the dirt covering the tank is not too deep and it's
gotten very hot.  If you've been living there for a while and this is
the first time you've ever seen it, it could signal something more
significant, though.

>>>==>PStJTT

	I think I'll vote with the "pump it" crowd.

	My system decided to back up a couple of days ago (on a weekday
	morning, with nice weather!  It missed its chance for a cold, 
	rainy, weekend evening!  Hah!)

	I estimate about 16 person-years of use (3*2 + 2*5), dishwasher,
	clotheswasher, garbage disposer lightly used.  Tank = 1000 gal.

	The pumper expert said that toilet paper does not decompose in the 
	tank; it forms that black sludgy stuff.

	Price = $70.  I had dug up most of the cover.  Suggestion: don't
	rebury the cover; build a little brick house around it, and place
	a 24" patio block at grade.

	Regards, Robert

There shouldn't be *anything* leaking out of your spetic tank -- the
system is designed to make stuff leak out in your leach field.  If the 
grass over the septic tank died, I would think that means that the dirt 
over the septic tank is too shallow or too poor to support grass in hot
weather.  Solution:  add lots of organic matter, and/or make the soil 
deeper.  Now, if the grass over the leach field died, I'd get concerned.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    re .14
    
     I believe that if your septic tank is too close to the roots of your
    grass, the moisture in the soil will pass into the pores of the cement,
    thus drying out the grass. Peat moss, organic material, or a water
    polymer (like 'water grabber') added to the soil above your tank should
    help with water retention.
    
    
     Bob 

    Thank you all for your replies.
    The guy who rents the house from me, added some soil, watered it more 
    often, and the grass came up again.
    demetri

    
    Does anyone have any recent experience as to cost per cubic yard for
    rock blasting? I've been quoted $32 per yard to include drilling,
    blasting and excavating including trucking out the rubble. This is up
    in Rockport, Mass. Right now it looks like about 200-250 yards have to
    be blasted, but we're probably going to expose the rock first to focus
    in on that figure a little better.
    

    I have seen a "hydro-cracking" advertised as an alternative to
    blasting. Might be cheaper.
    
    Just curious....can another location be picked ? Also,is the 200-250
    yards for the tank or does that include the leaching field too?
    If so,doesn't sound like a place that has good drainage.
    
    Marc H.

    
    No one has suggested hydro-cracking to me. I'll ask the engineer
    involved. The location is the only place on the lot where a perc might
    be viable - the rest is all ledge close to the surface. It's a basin
    with good soil down about 12 feet. Trouble is runoff water gets into
    the basin and is trapped, so the bottom lip (the ground slants downward
    to the road) of the basin has to be blasted off to drop the water table
    (at least that's the hope). We haven't gone much into the planning of
    the septic system itself at this stage.
    
    

    Mass Rock Splitting in South Grafton is one place that I have heard of.
    I listened to their presentation,but,never talked to them about price.
    They use water pressure.
    
    Marc H.

    
    Thanks Marc, I'll talk to the engineer about it. The other quotes are
    coming in about the same anyway - around $30 a cu yard for drilling,
    shooting and excavating it all out of there.
    

Hi,

I have a question and need advise.

I presently have a 'chamber' septic system that is built up in the standard
mound/hill configuration.  This system has one of those breather pipes
(don't know what its called), sticking out of the septic.  You know the
ones I am talking about they look like an upside down J.

Just recently I expanded the size of my yard and because of that this breather
pipe is now more like in the middle of the yard rather than the edge where it
was before.  Now I don't want to plant bushes, plants, etc.. in the middle of
the yard I really want the pipe not to be there.  So I figure I have two 
options.

1) the first option would be to simply dig up the pipe and cap it under te
ground.  Now this is the quick and dirty approach but since its there I figure
It must have a reason.  So first what is its purpose and is it recommended to
cap this beather pipe? 

2) Second is too move the pipe.  Now what I was thinking of doing is digging
up the pipe to where is enters the septic system and at that point put a 
90 degree elbow in then running a pipe undergrond to the edge of the yard then
another 90 degree elbow pointing up and attach the original upside down J here.
This way I will still have air going to the system but is will just be down
a longer pipe.  Will this work?  is there a maximum distance I can go with
this approach?

      Before                                               After
-------------------------------------    ---------------------------------------

                -------\					     -------\
	       1 ----1 1					    1 ----1 1
	       1 1   1 1					    1 1   1 1
               1 1						    1 1
	       1 1						    1 1
	       1 1						    1 1
	       1 1						    1 1
	       1 1				--------------------  1
	       1 1				1  ___________________1
	       1 1				1 1
       --------1 1--------              --------1 1---------
       1                 1		1		   1
       1  SEPTIC SYSTEM  1              1  SEPTIC SYSTEM   1
       1		 1		1		   1
       1-----------------1		1------------------1


                  
Let me say the septic system is 5 years old and has worked flawlessly for all
5 years.  So I don't want to ruin a good thing, thats why I am asking questions
first.  If it means taking a chance in making my system not work as good as it
does now or bushes around the pipe, bushes it will be.  But if it won't hurt
the system I would like to do something with the pipe.

So what do you think?

							- Dino -

    Hi, can anyone out there help me with my question is .161 ?  

    
    This is *probably* a vent for methane and other gases and may also
    be required as an anti-siphon (vacuum breaker) in case of flooding.
    I would not recommend capping it.
    
    You'll have to check local codes for relocating the pipe - there
    may be some risk of forming gas pockets and you have to use
    appropriate materials & pipe seals.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    If you want to put *something* in one end of your septic system
    (sewage) you had better let the air out the other end (via the pipe).
    
    	If you cap that pipe you may have a very difficult time flushing
    your toilets.

    
    
    The vent stack should take care of any back pressure.......
    
    How about putting one of thoes wooden wishing wells around
    the pipe?   Now you wont see the pipe and it will look like
    you have an old well out back.  Plant some flowers around it....
    
    

    
    ....Or get somebody out that really knows those kind of systems 
    and have them advise you. It is there at that location for a purpose
    and if you don't know what it is, you would be inviting BIG trouble
    messing w/it. Call the people that take care of the system. If they
    can't answer they can put you on to somebody who does and it doesn't
    cost anything to talk. I am sure that it wasn't put there at that 
    location because somebody thought it would look nice to have a pipe
    sticking out of the ground.;>)

    re.165
    
                      <<< Note 832.165 by ELWOOD::DYMON >>>
                           -< why make extra work?? >-
    
>>    The vent stack should take care of any back pressure.......
    
    
    	I disagree. The vent stack is there to relieve the pressure in the line
    from the house to the septic tank. It makes it possible for all the
    plumbing traps in the house to work properly.
    
    	The vent pipe off of the tank itself relieves pressure buildup
    in the tank itself. Without it, the flow of material to the tank could
    be slowed as air would be forced out the inflow pipe to get to the
    vent stack. Slowing down the flow to the septic tank could result in
    less than adequate movement of (*ahem!*) solid materials to the tank.
    
    	Bottom line, the pipe is there for a reason! Don't plug it.

The person asking the question isn't planning on plugging it, but extending
the vent to a less noticible location.  I believe it's present since this is
some sort of aerobic (air using) system, opposed to the anaerobic process that
normal septic tanks use.  If so, I can see no reason the pipe couldn't be
extended _as long as the extension is sloped so water from condensation can't
form a trap and block air flow_, but find out for sure what kind of system this
is, and find someone who knows such systems.

-Mike

    
    	I have one in my front yard too, as well as a sewage pumping
    station inbetween my septic tank and the leach field.  (Underground,
    that is.  The leach field ended up being uphill from the rest of the 
    septic as a result of numerous perc tests...)  I questioned my home 
    inspector as to the pipe's purpose before I bought the house.
    
    	The way he explained it to me was that, in a NORMAL situation,
    which means that it's all downhill from the house to the septic tank to
    the leach field, the plumbing vent internal to the house does an
    adequate job of venting the entire septic system, as one of the
    earlier replies mentioned.  In my case, however, a second high point
    was created by the addition of the pumping station and the leach field.
    It is this higher point which could and would trap air (actually become
    under a vacuum, and probably end up sucking all kinds of wonderful ____
    out into the leach field) if it were not properly vented.  Hence the 
    addition of the beautiful white inverted J-pipe in the middle of the 
    front yard.  I'm planning on simply landscaping around it to hide it.  
    
    	DO NOT cap this line.  Moving it may be acceptable.  In agreement
    with the other replies: you really should ask an expert on the subject
    if you really want to re-route it.  And if you also have a pump on your
    system, plan on having that tank pumped at least every year or two.
    Good preventive maintenance.  (I know _I_ wouldn't want to be the one
    replacing my pump!!!)
    
    /TB
    

I thought the ventilation was for the leach field end, not the 
septic tank.

The bacteria that work in the tank are anaerobic: no air.  There shouldn't
be an air vent for the tank, nor should there be a build of pressure,
since the excess liquid ought to freely flow into the leach field.

The bacteria that work around the leach field are aerobic.  They depend
on the air to work.  If they don't have air, they don't work as well, the leach
field starts getting clogged, they get less air, they work even more poorly,
and so on.  My local high school has several of these J's in their fields
scattered widely.  I'd be surprised if they were for different septic tanks,
but it makes sense that they could be for different parts of the leach field.

Bottom line: get an expert opinion.  Do you know who designed the system?
If not, I bet any engineering firm would be willing to give you the
quick answer for free (where the quick answer might be you need an expert,
or it's alwyas ok to move it so long as you maintain the connection, or
it's never possible).

   Gary

    Thanks for all the answers.
    
    To clear up a few things, the inverted J-pipe is NOT for my septic
    tank, it is at the end of leach field.  
    I have now narrowed down my choices to
    	1) landscape around it
    	2) move it as I originally proposed
    and be assured I will NOT cap it!
    I guess I will give a good septic person a call and see what they say.
    
    On a different note, I have not yet emptied my tank and according to
    the originall designer I should theoretically NOT have to.
    The bacteria in both the tank and the leach field should break down
    the waste small enough so it can be processed via the leach field.
    What I do is every six months I give my system boost by flushing down
    the toilet a dose of bacteria.  I do this because over time the
    bacteria in the septic may die or decrease in numbers, this happens
    alot due to the bleach, cleaners, etc.. that come from dishwashers, washing
    machines, stuff poured down the sink...  I have found this a very
    helpfull and an easy thing to do and very inexpensive.  You can pick up
    the bacteria in places like AGWAY, FARM supply store, certian hardware
    stores, etc..
    
    Has anyone else out there gone a LONG period of time and not had there
    tank emptied?   Does anyone else put bacteria in there system to boost
    its processing power?
    
    			
    

    
    I bought my house new in 1978. Had the tank pumped for the first time
    this past April, and the distribution box to the leach fields inspected,
    as part of an addition project. No problem.
    
    When we were looking for a mortgage in 1978, we had a really nice chat
    with a grandfatherly-type loan officer at Worker's Credit Union. At the
    time, he was working on his 25th year on his septic system, without
    pumping. We followed his advice: no colored paper, watch the harsh
    chemicals, no food or grease, no garbage disposal. it works for us (two
    adults, two children). Your effluent may vary.
    
    
    Re "J" pipes: I've seen some attractively decorated as candy canes.
    Works for at least a few months out of the year.
    

    	I've flushed some of that bacteria stuff down the toilet once a
    month for the past five or so years and haven't been so lucky. We are
    also very careful about what goes down the drain and into the septic
    system. We *do* have a garbage disposal but are careful about what goes
    into it. There are two adults and two kids (=> lots of laundry). I've
    had to pump the tank every 2-3 years or risk backing up. Perhaps it's
    the high-fiber diets...

I have had my house for 3.5 years and never pumped the tank.  The previous owner
had not pumped it for probably 8 years, if at all.  The laundry is drained to a 
separate dry well, and not the septic.  Everything else goes to the tank.

I would not pump the tank unless absolutely necessary.  My parents only had to
pump the tank when our large family overpowered the system.

Ed..

>The laundry is drained to a 
>separate dry well, and not the septic.
    I didn't think this was technically allowed. What's involved, permit/
    approval-wise, to create a system you describe?
    
    John

re: .171

As I'm sure I've said before in this note (but it deserves repeating), I have
yet to see any independent, non-anecdotal confirmation of any of the
septic tank additives (Rid-X, bacteria, enzyme, whatever), other than
root killers (for tree roots interfering with the leach field).  I've
seen and read a fair bit 
of info from state agencies, extension services, independent researchers, and
while they may or may not have a bias against chemicals, they also have a bias
towards proper operation of septic systems.  It seems to me that if any of
the additives worked, there'd be at least some independent study by some
college or research group to verify it.

re: .175

Rules for dry wells vary from area to area.  I personally think they're
a fine idea.  Contact your local board of health or building inspector for
details.

Chances are that if they're allowed at all, then they should be pretty easy
to do.  There may be some requirements with respect to distance from 
well, existing septic system, or wetlands, but I've never heard of any
cases where they needed engineering expertise of the sort that goes into
septic system design.  

   Gary

    During the warmer spells we have had here (in the Boston area) after the
    snowfalls, I have noticed a square patch of snow which has melted about
    10' away from the house and directly above where the septic system
    exits the house.  The rest of the lawn was still covered with snow!
    
    Now, is this normal or is this something I should worry about (the
    house is about 3 months old)?  Should I contact the builder??? 
    
    Thanks in advance for all your input!
    
    							-SKD-

        Not a problem.  A lot of the liquid which goes into the
    tank is warm (tub, dishes) plus the bacteria action in the
    tank generates heat.  Not at all uncommon that there is bare
    ground over the tank.

        Actually, if the system froze, it would be a major
    problem.  I have heard of leach fields freezing in very cold
    weather.  Unusual, but it does happen.


    Peter Duke

    Re .0
    
    Give thanks and be joyful.  This means that your septic system
    is working, as indicated in the previous reply.  For technical
    reference, see "The Grass Is Always Greener Over The Septic Tank,"
    by Erma Bombeck.
    
    PBM
    

    I also agree with the last entries. I've always had septic systems,
    and the tank does produce heat.  The cover is the place where the heat
    can most easily escape.  Makes it easy to find the cover when you
    will check it\pump it out.
    
    Marc H.

    (RE moved discussion)
    
    Saw a variation on this a few years ago on TV, but I have not come
    across a productised version of it. Instead of open bin composting, the
    thing hermetically sealed each batch of waste in a polythene ribbon
    that could then be dumped as solid waste.  It was designed for 0 water
    wastage and it was claimed that the contents would self-compost
    anaerobically to present no health risks within a few months in a
    conventional landfill.  No plumbing, just a single electrical
    connection & optional airduct connnection.  I can't see that the water
    saving outweighs the additional plastic waste it would generate.
    
    Anyone know whether it actually became a product?
    
    C.
    
     

    The one I bought was a Sun Mar from a firm in Concord MA imported from
    Sweden thru Canada.  It is a fairly large white "throne".  It is
    externally vented with a fan and has a small heating element to keep
    the temp above 65 degrees.  One puts a starter batch of peat moss in it
    along with some bacteria (supplied).  Supposed to put in two cups of
    peat per person per day.  (Ill also use marine biodegradeable paper).
    there is a drum inside with a crank = flushing.  1000s in use esp in
    Europe. The only answer when the water table is higher than ground
    level... yes ooozing and running off.
    
    Bob

	It was also my understanding that some company in Sweden made electric
toilets that incinerated the waste.

Mark

re .14:

I hope they have a very good failsafe mechanism.

    re: .14
    
    mmmmm I bet that smells good...not!   :-}

They use composting toilets in the El Paso County parks here in Colorado.
There's no electricity in the building, so no power venting.  The sign
claims (as I recall) that the only maintenance is to empty it every three
years.  There's no drum to turn or other moving parts.  There appears to be
no freeze protection.

I recall a slight odor, certainly far better than an outhouse, but it's
probably not acceptable in a home.

    Another related question...I have noticed that the soil directly above
    the septic tank has "risen" - it's level is noticeably higher than the
    ground around it and it seems to be dotted with "holes" (loosened
    soil).  Is this normal for a new (4 mo. old) tank?  Thanks!
    
    								-Sujal-

    I don't want to start a rat hole hese so I am hoping that the replies
    to my question will be on whether or not I might cause a problem with
    my septic.
    
    	I was reading an interesting article on heat pumps in Popular
    Science. It seems that they are becomming more effective in higher
    latitudes due to new techniques of burying the input (heat) loops in
    the ground rather than having and air/air heat pump. I was wondering if
    it would be a good or bad idea to run these ground loops around the
    septic tank. There is all kinds of wonderful heat to be gathered there
    even in winter. Could this cause serious problems by drawing too much
    heat from the tank? Is there a minimum temperature at which a septic
    tank might fail? Could I reach that temperature by using a heat pump to
    draw heat from the tank?
    
    						Mark

    I recall a TV program that described such heat pumps, but it
    was aired many years ago.
    
    As far as I know, the input loops are fairly long, to distribute
    the heat extraction over a wide range.  If they're too short you'd
    freeze the ground.
    
    In terms of looping around your septic tank, what seems to make
    sense is just make a couple of loops around it, and otherwise
    run the loops the way they'd normally run.  That is, you'd not
    envelop the tank, but you'd pick up some of the heat and not
    freeze the tank.

    re: .6
    Good suggestions. Actually there is a new technique for laying out the
    input loops that costs far less that the older way. 
    
    The old way was to lay out straight legnths of pipe. This requires
    considerable digging and expense. The new way is to lay out *coils* of
    piping. This requires a slot to be dug about 6 inches wide and 6 feet
    deep (depending on location and soil type). The newer method is far
    cheaper to install because of this. I think that they use the same
    equipment that they use for laying underground cables to dig the
    trenches.
    
    	I got a line on a Civil Engineering professor at UMass in Lowell.
    I'll put the question to him about this idea.
    I did think of one disadvantage: With the coils ofthe input loop around
    the septic tank, the heat pump would not work well for cooling during
    the summer months.
    
    
    						Mark
    

Somewhere here is a note describing a large compost heat in a pit as a source
of heat for a heat pump.  Needs to be refueled every 6 months or something...

-Mike

    
    I'm interested in purchasing a home that has a "Chambered" leachfield.
    This is supposed to be good, but I know next to nothing about what one
    is (and neither did the realtor, he only new it was good).   Is this
    any better than having a leachfield/dry well combination (where only
    the grey water goes to the dry well)?
    
                -- Novice on septic systems
    

    RE:.0


    	I've got a chambered leachfield.  I had to replace my original
    septic system 2 years ago (from the septic tank out, yard included).
    my first system was also chambered in fact the 1st one had 4 chambers
    and went bad in 6� - 7 years.  The 2nd system has 3 chambers and works 
    much better.  I believe that the theory is they provide a place to hold 
    the water until it leaches into the ground.  After watching both systems 
    being put in it's quite obvious to me that the 1st system was put in 
    wrong also wrong kind of soil.  Each chamber is approx. 4'x8'x 18" and 
    has a solid top, no bottom and holes all over the side.  They interlock 
    together so with 3 chambers I have an area 4'x24'x18" to hold the water 
    until it leaches into the ground.  I don't know how many gallons that is
    but it's gotta be a bunch.  As with a regular leach field only liquids
    go into the chambers, solids stay in the septic tank.  With the high 
    water table I've got (4 feet down) and the real wet spring seasons we've 
    had I've never had a problem with the new one.  Even with the old one I 
    didn't have problems until the last year an half.

    Joe

    P.S. Oh ya with the cost of the engineer 
    and the contractor and all that fill they 
    had to bring in (over 1100 yards) the bill
    came to just over $15,000.  
       

    .1 seems to have the basic facts on the beast.
    
    We just had one installed (new home) and as I understand it, it's 
    not as much a question of superiority, as of necessity.
    
    In other words, where the soil and grade are "average" (however that's 
    defined :-), the standard leachfield will suffice.  The chambered
    leachfield compensates for such shortfalls as poor soil, or (in our
    case) proximity to a radical grade, particularly when near wetland or
    runoff areas.
    
    I guess if someone just "gotta have the best of everything,"  they 
    could opt for one and brag about it, but its principal purpose seems
    to be to allow a septic system where one wouldn't otherwise be 
    practical (or permissible).  It sort of just "levels the playing
    field" - so to speak.
    
    	tony

	Disclaimer- I am not a SEPTIC-HELPER salesman (or own stock in
	the company which makes it) not do I play one on TV.  I'm just
	a typical homeowner of a 20 year old house who's trying to keep
	my septic-related expenses down.
	
	That said, I recently received a product for which I have 30 days to 
	decide whether to use it (any pay for it) or return it to the man-
	ufacturer.  The product is named SEPTIC-HELPER and made by Krane 
	Products, INC.  P.O. Box 521, Larchmont, NY  10538 1-800-544-4074.  
	What the salesman claims is that if you have a normal septic system 
	(ie; tank w/ leech field) using SEPTIC-HELPER will keep your system 
	running efficiently to the point where you *NEVER* need to have it 
	pumped and you shouldn't ever have system-related problems.  When I 
	heard this I thought "Yeah, sure," and figured I'd at least get more 
	information on it (hence receiving the product and the associated 
	literature).  I would normally perceive products like this as snake 
	oil but I do have one friend whose opinion I respect a great deal 
	who's been using a similar product for years and swears by it.  Also, 
	the salesman said this product would accelerate the breakdown of 
	grease in the septic system which is a major concern of mine.

        A problem I have with a product like this is that there's are few
	real means of measuring the effectiveness of it.  What I've been
	told is that the rate of the toilet flush should be quicker because
	"every 5 years the circumference of your sewage pipes decrease by
        1/2" and this stuff will eliminate that buildup.  Another test I 
	could perform is to examine the contents of the tank before and 
	during use of SEPTIC-HELPER and note any changes.

	What I'd like to do is post the product information here and try
	to get some reasonably educated & *intelligent* feedback from some
	of the more knowledgeable folks out there.  I will kindly request
	that people refrain from replies like "hogwash" without including
	their rational for such statements and would prefer reference based 
	either from your personal experiences with or without similar/identical
	products or cite sources for your comments.  Also, the company's 
	been in business for over 16 years now so I assume that either the 
	product works somewhat or there's enough consumers like me who'll buy 
	their product at least once.

	thanks,

	MLC

	Oh yeah, the cost is $100/3-year supply or $140/6-year supply and
	they claim to have a 100% full money back guarantee at any time
	you're using the product.  The 800 number above is staffed by 
	"technical" people who may be able to answer questions you may have.

	warning 145 lines follows the ff


	Here's what the manufacturer says.....

	SEPTIC-HELPER is a blend of 8 scientifically enhanced enzyme producing 
	bacteria that act as a catalytic agent and speeds up the degradation 
	rate of organic waste.

	The method is natural digestion of their natural food, by living
	Friendly Bacteria.  Their food is organic waste matter.  They recycle 
	waste back to the simple basic parts of soil, air, and water they were 
	formed from.  Used by the natural laws that govern them, they feed on 
	wastes by digesting, liquefying and recycling them back to actually 
	enrich our environment.  They produce NO POISONS or damaging side 
	effects in the process.  Their action is complete.  It is truly a 
	Natural Solution.
        ----------------

	Today our systems don't receive an adequate bacteria supply from
	natural sources.  Use of acids, caustics, detergents (and modern
	bacteriostats and disinfectants to kill germs), also kill the Friendly 
	Bacteria our systems must have to operate trouble-free, healthfully, 
	and without great maintenance costs.

	Specifically SEPTIC-HELPER is composed of: 8 scientifically enhanced 
	biostrains   3 strains of Bacillus subtilis, 1 strain of Bacillus 
	licheniformis, 1 strain of Pseudomonas aeruginosa, 1 strain of 
	Pseudomonas stutzeri, 1 strain of Escherichia hermanii, 1 strain of 
	Pseudomonas flourescens

	These bacteria strains work together with your septic systems naturally 
	occurring bacteria to aid in quicker breakdown of difficult compounds 
	and improve the overall performance of any septic system.  These 
	bacteria produce enzymes to liquefy and digest the solid wastes.  Some 
	of these enzymes are:

	Lipase enzymes - These enzymes attack all fats and greases, break down 	
	their molecular structure and dissolves them.

	Amylase enzymes - These enzymes break down all starches they come in 
	contact with, as with Lipase Enzymes the molecular structure is broken 
	down and the starches are dissolved.

	Protease - The most common of wastes found in Septic systems, these
	particular type of enzymes literally feed on, break down and dissolve 
	all organic wastes of the protein family.

	All the mentioned bacteria are Salmonella negative, non-pathogenic,
	non-toxic and harmless to animals or man.

	SEPTIC-HELPER has a bacteria count of at least 1 billion organisms/OZ.



		SEPTIC SYSTEMS AND WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW

	The design of a septic system requires careful and intelligent planning.
        The character of the soil is the first important factor that must be 
        considered.  The soil that is most favorable for the disposal of the 
        purified liquid waste of the septic system, is of a sandy nature.  
        Sand or gravel absorbs moisture and permits rapid leaching of the liquid
        waste into the subsoil.  Another favorable condition is where the 
        contour or slope of the soil is at such distance from the purification 
        unit of the septic tank that a gravity flow in the discharge line is 
        possible.

	The soil must have an accepted percolation or absorption rate, without 
        interference from ground water or impervious layers below the level of 
        the absorption system.  In general, two conditions must be met:
	1) The percolation or absorption time.
	2) The maximum elevation of the ground-water table should be at least 
        four feet below the surface.  Rock formations or other impervious layers
        should be deeper than four feet below the bottom of the trench.  Unless 
        these two conditions are satisfied, the site is unsuitable for a sub 
        surface sewage disposal system.

	The septic tank is a device used to expedite the decomposition of the 
        elements contained in raw sewage waste.  Raw sewage consists of water 
        and settleable solid materials, such as grit, grease, fats, vegetable 
        and animal materials in a suspended state and non-settable materials 
        of a vegetable and mineral nature in solution.  It has a milky color 
        and may have an extremely offensive odor.  The settleable solids, 
        usually referred to as organic materials, can be liquefied in a septic 
        tank in a very short time.  Approximately a 24-hour period of retention
        offers satisfactory results.  The solid organic materials, being more 
        dense than water, tend to settle to the bottom of the tank and are 
        technically referred to as sludge.  The lighter organic materials, 
        being less dense than water, rise to the surface of the water and 
        usually are referred to as scum.  The suspended materials constitute 
        only a small part of the raw sewage by actual weight.  The organic 
        materials in solution in the raw sewage offer a more difficult problem.
        They cannot be liquefied in the septic tank and must undergo further 
        treatment by processes other than liquefaction.  The liquid content 
        of raw sewage does not present a problem other than that of its 
        discharge into the subsoil or natural drainage terminal.

	HOW SEPTIC-HELPER WORKS

	SEPTIC-HELPER is designed to prevent the main causes of trouble in
	the efficient operation of your septic system or cesspool.

	Today modern detergents and bleaches can decrease the number of bacteria
        which are necessary to the liquefaction and digestion process needed 
        to break down organic matter in your system.  With limited amounts of 
        bacteria in your system, the solid matter builds up and blocks your 
        lines and pipes which causes backup and foul odors.

	SEPTIC-HELPER with its scientifically enhanced bacteria and enzymes
	goes to work liquefying and digesting greases, fats, oils, detergents
	and cellulose.  It liquefies and digests some organic wastes to help
	eliminate build up in your system and drain field.  It is truly a
	NATURAL SOLUTION to help prevent organic build up.

	MONEY BACK GUARANTEE
	
	Order SEPTIC-HELPER - try it.  If you're not entirely satisfied with
	SEPTIC-HELPER just send back the unused portion and you'll be sent
	a refund immediately.  This is how confident we are that SEPTIC-HELPER
	will maintain your system for its entire life as long as you follow 
	the single instructions.

	SAFE TO USE

	SEPTIC-HELPER is 100% safe to use.  It is guaranteed to be harmless
	to humans, animals, all plant matters and pipes including plastics.

	REDUCE PUMP OUTS

	SEPTIC-HELPER saves money and inconvenience by possibly reducing the
	frequency of septic tank pumpouts.  A small amount of SEPTIC-HELPER 
	can help liquefy and digest some organic solids.  It will also help
	clean the lines leading to the septic tank.  SEPTIC-HELPER goes to
	work immediately in your septic system to help digest the organic
	solids and clean the walls.  It is carried out to the drain field
	to help reduce organic build up.  It is a treatment program for the
	entire system.  SEPTIC-HELPER is harmless to humans and animals and
	will not harm plants, trees or pipes.  Simply pour some down your
	commode and flush.

	Nothing is more embarrassing than a foul odor - especially when 
	company visits - not to mention the daily discomfort your family will
	experience.  There simply is no reason you have to worry about this
	problem ever again.  With SEPTIC-HELPER so readily available - and so
	easy to use, stop worrying.  Put SEPTIC-HELPER to work for you and
	relax..................

    	I bought a similar product about 5 years ago. It was called
    Septic-Cleanz (or something like that). The claims were all the same.
    However, this was something like $75 for a 5-6 year supply. So it was a
    little more affordable.
    	I had many, many septic system problems in my previous house. I
    thought this stuff would at least help. By cleaning the pipe from my
    house to the septic tank, what this stuff showed me was that I had
    holes in my pipe that had been clogged up with gunk for years. So
    although it appeared to clean my pipe, I ended up with more septic
    problems than before. I also so no difference in how often the tank
    needed to be pumped.
    	Well, I brought the stuff with me to my current house...which has a
    better septic system. I've lived here for 2.5 years and use this stuff
    once a month. I've had the tank pumped out once, and it desperately
    needed it. It was rock solid all the way to the top, and it had
    supposedly been pumped 3 years earlier (before I moved in). Well, after
    pumping out the tank, I've still be using the stuff religiously, but I
    really don't think it's having much effect. It could be that I put
    stuff in the tank which renders it ineffective. I don't know. I'm going
    to have the tank pumped again this fall (which will be 2 years since
    the last pumping) and see how everything looks.
    	There are products available in hardware stores for a LOT cheaper
    and in smaller amounts that appear to do the same things. It might be a
    lot smarter to go this route for a while and see what you think.

RE: .177

 I've been using a similar product called Septi-Zone marketed by Amacanada
Corp for over 12 years. A 16 oz. bag once a month flushed down the toilet 
seems to do the trick. A 3 year supply goes $69.00.

 I haven't had to have the tank pumped since I started using it.

 Strictly from a user standpoint, I'd say it lives up to its claims.

    RE:.177

    >	the salesman said this product would accelerate the breakdown of 
    >	grease in the septic system which is a major concern of mine.

    	If you plan on putting grease in your septic system it won't 
    last long no matter what you use.  I've seen what poring grease
    down the drain can do to a system and I've also seen what a backhoe
    did to my neighbors yards trying to find the tank lucky for him the
    outlet on the tank plugged up before the grease got out into his
    leachfield.
    
    Joe
    

re: Note 832.180                    Septic questions                      180 of 180

>    	If you plan on putting grease in your septic system it won't 
>    last long no matter what you use.  

Joe...I'm not planning on *intentionally* putting grease into the system.
I was just concerned about the smaller amounts of oils & grease that covers
the pots and pans during regular cooking.  Based on my limited understanding
of septic system workings I don't understand how these would normally break
down and see them as a cause of potential buildup, hence accelerating any
system breakdown.

Ask the sales rep if there have been any independent studies validating
the effectiveness of their product.  I have yet to see any independent
source recommending any septic tank additives, other than root killer in cases
where tree roots are growing into the system.

It sounds like they're selling FUD.

   Gary

	    I think the usefuleness of septic system additives (bacteria)
	is directly proportional to the amount of bacteria killers you pour
	down the drain.  They claim to help break down grease, also.  We 
	pour our grease in a coffee can kept under the sink.

  How far underground is the pipe exiting the house suppose to be?  The reason
I ask is that I'm having a house built and they put the hole in the foundation
for the pipe about 3 feet from the door of my walkout.  How much are they going
to have to build up the ground next to my door?


              Jim

Below the frost line.  It depends upon where you live.  From my experience:

Worcester, MA:	4 feet
Tucson, AZ:	6 inches (although the pipes did freeze once in 18 years at
			  this depth)
Colorado Springs, CO:	3 feet (at 6400' - drive 20 miles and you're at 9000',
				and need to bury deeper)

    Going below the frost line is probably overkill.  I asked the health
    inspector about this when I had my system replaced a few years ago.
    I was concerned because the pipe exited near the surface.  He said
    not to worry, "s**t never freezes!".  He added that he even knew of 
    places where the waste pipe was run above ground without any problems.
    This was in Massachusetts.  If you live in northern Siberia, maybe
    other rules apply.

    
    Mine is about 2' below ground, never had a problem. Remember --
    you'll have to dig down to the tank once in a while.
    
    (Townsend Harbor -- the official coldest spot in Massachusetts)
    

My septic pipe is less than 1' down.  The tank itself is 0' down.  And my
rabbit has excavated a number of feet of the pipe where it leaves the
house.  But even so, the only sewage backups I've ever had were due to
junk in the pipe *inside* my basement.  And that includes two weeks
where it never got above 10 degrees (in central Massachusetts).

After all, water doesn't sit in a septic pipe, it flows through.  And even
cold water probably leaves the house at about 55 degrees.  It just isn't
likely to freeze during the time it takes to flow 20 feet (or however far
your tank is from your house).  Even if the water were 33 degrees, it
would still take a lot of cooling to move it across the phase transition
to its solid form.  

HOWEVER, I think the real question here is:  "How deep will the building
inspector insist that it be?"  I suggest asking the building inspector.
You'll have lots of problems if the pipe exits the house higher up than
the building inspector wants it.  After all, the code may require
burying the pipe deep enough to avoid accidental breakage from digging --
electrical conduit has to be 2' down for that reason.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

My pipe was exposed at the drip edge line of the hose.  It is less than one
inch below the soil at that point and slopes out.  The important part is the
slope (according to the town).

This is Merrimack NH.


Brian.

  Wow!  Thanks for all the quick responses!

  The house is being built on Rt 20 in Northboro Mass.  It sounds like I 
shouldn't have a problem with the pipe.  



  Thanks again for the info.


                         Jim

    Shouldn't be a problem.  Mine is about 6" down, I think.

    
    We are looking into buying a house with a septic system.  We checked
    out the house at the Town Hall and found a letter from a septic company. 
    It basically says that company A came and failed the septic system. 
    Then company B (this company) came and said that the system is not
    failed, that it has a biological block ?????  They treated the system
    with hydrogen peroxide.  The company that treated the system gives a
    three year guarentee on the system (for the price of the treatment) and
    says that the system is as good as new???  That it should last another
    20-30 years with periodical drainings.
    
    Has anyone ever heard of this hydrogen peroxide treatment, or
    biological blocks?
    
    Thanks for any info,
    Amy

    I think I'd go and talk to Company A, tell them what Company B
    did, ask if they think it will work, and if not, why not.

    What department in the typical town hall maintains such records?  Would
    it be the health inspector, or the building inspector, or some other
    department?

    
    Board of Health
    
    CdH

    
    Yes, it was at the Board of Health that I received the information. 
    So, nobody has heard of hydrogen peroxide treatments?
    
    Amy
    

      I have heard of hydrogen peroxide treatment for septic systems. My
      understanding is that they can open up a leach field  that  is  no
      longer working.  My understanding is also that this is a temporary
      process that can be used to delay replacing the system,  but  that
      it in no way returns the system to anything like "new".
      
      If  a  septic  system  had failed and then been "restored" by this
      treatment, I would expect that it should be  replaced  within  2-3
      years.   If  there is room on the property for a second, new leach
      field that would probably be the way to go.  Otherwise  you  would
      have to dig out and replace all the soil from the failed field.  I
      believe that the removed soil is considered "hazardous waste",  so
      this option becomes considerably more expensive.

      Please  note  that  my information is HEARSAY and ANECDOTAL.  i.e.
      I've never discussed this with a knowledgeable civil engineer.  

This is a reply from a few discussions back regarding SEPTIC-HELPER.  (I just
got caught up with HOME_WORK last night.)


I just got a similar phone call yesterday from them.  Usually I end such phone
solicitations quite abruptly.  But for some reason I decided to listen to the
guy.  After listening to his speil, I asked im to send me the literature in the
mail, and I'd look at it, and get back to him.  He told me that he *couldn't*
do that.    You had to receive free shipment of the product and then return it
within 30-days, if not satisfied.  (I'm not sure if it was COD, or billed
later)  Well, that set off the scam alarms in my head (trying to figure out
"what's the catch?") 

I told him I use RID-X and was content with it.  He went on to tell me that
SPETIC-HELPER costs about � what RID-X does.  And then he tried to show me all
the fillers RID-X has in it that ar ebad for septic systems, like salt and
iron.  I have no idea whether these items are bad for septic systems or not.

Without examining their ingredients or verifying the costs, I imagine
SEPTIC-HELPER does a reasonable job as a septic system bacteria additive.  It
seems to me that "the catch" is that they are selling you a 6-year supply.  In
most cases, they'll get their money, with minimal sales/marketing overhead (1
phone call) and that'll be the last you ever hear from them. If the product
doesn't work, (and you go for the money back guarantee) the company may be no
where to be found!  And besides, if your system fails, getting the $140 back,
will be the least of your financial worries.

I'll stick with RID-X for now.  It's not too expensive, and has decent report.

                                                            _Mike

    Re: .198
    Well, my water is loaded with iron, or was until I put in a water
    softener, and the iron never seemed to hurt the septic system. 
    Now the septic system gets about 3-5 lb. of salt every 6 days from
    the water softener, and that doesn't seem to bother it either.
    So much for all the awful things in RID-X.
    
    Besides, IMO there is absolutely no need to add *anything* to a
    septic system to make it work; it will get along very nicely with
    no additives whatsoever.  The best thing you can do for it is treat
    it with respect and avoid putting chemicals, grease, etc. into it.
    That will do more to help your septic system than anything you could
    possibly add to "help" it.

I got a call from this company.  I listened quietly to the pitch, then said I
wasn't interested.  The guy starts going why not?  Why wouldn't I want to use it?

At this point I'm no longer interested in listening to him.  So I state 
I don't want to discuss the product and I'm not interested.  I hang up.

The phone rings.  My wife answers it.

The guy goes.  Tell your daddy he's a son of a b!x@h

Sounds like a great company...

Tim

Here's a DIY Success Story.  Hit Next Unseen if you can't take the smell.

I've been planning on turning the ad hoc flower patch above our septic tank
into a more permanent arrangement, with a pseudo-brick concrete border.  But
I wanted to make sure that the concrete border doesn't interfere with digging
up the tank, so I needed the exact location of the cover (I knew the
location of the tank, but not where the cover was on the tank).  Also, 
since we've been in the house for 4.5 years without having the tank inspected
or pumped, we felt it was time to make sure it was working well.

I found the tank about 18 inches under my starting point, and with a little
bit of hunting, and relying on past memory and snow melting pattersn, found the
cover.  We used an old curtain rod to inspect it, crimping the rod where the
two halves joined so that the lower half wouldn't fall out.  The
curtain rod seemed like a good choice, since the bent portion on the
bottom could detect the beginnings of the sludge (heavier than water solids).  

The guidelines I had said that if the scum (solids on top) or sludge were more
than a quarter the depth of the tank (i. e., the tank contains more solid than
liquid), then it's time to pump.  We had hardly any scum, and less than
4 inches
of sludge, so we figure we're good for another 6 to 10 years at least,
and could probably go indefinitely.  That's with absolutely no RID-X or
other such treatments.  It was certainly worth the labor for some good
peace of mind.

   Gary

PS and with a brisk wind, the smell was quite tolerable.

    Re: .201
    
    I also inspect my septic tank around once a year. I use a long wooden
    stick, and have yet to find any significant amount of sludge.
    
    I can find the scum though. Its a rough job, and once the scum is
    disturbed, the smell...well............
    
    Still, its nice to know whats going on.
    
    Marc H.

    re: septic smell
    
    I was actually surpried the first time I opened my tank. I expected
    a slightly more (how to put this politely?) "recently used bathroom"
    odor, but found it to be much more similar to the smell of the muck
    at the edge of a swamp. My dog used to smell like that after he came
    home from fishing. Decaying organic matter...
    
    All things considered, I wouldn't buy a bottle of similarly scented
    "toilet water" (pun intended) but it wasn't at all what I expected...
    
    Edd

    	Oh yes, I actually love the smell! We make it a family event at my
    house every year. My kids can hardly wait for the annual septic tank
    inspection! I've been thinking about just leaving the cover off to let
    the odor permeate the entire house and neighborhood and marketing a new
    cologne with that special scent. I've often wondered why those guys who
    pump septic tanks for a living are so successful with women. Now their
    secret's out!
    	I get a stomach ache just thinking about lifting the cover
    off...but then again, I have some rather unpleasant memories on this
    subject...and odor is well known to stimulate memory.

    Re. .122
    
      How do you adjust the floats? I have a similar symptom of the pump
    cycling on and off to much. I've been told that it is normal for a
    small amount of liquid to come back to the pump tank, that way any
    solid particles come back to the tank and don't go into the leach
    field. When I move the float up and down it turns the pump on and off
    with a minimal amount of movement. I did not think this was correct but
    I did not see an adjustment.
    
                                                     JRW

    I'm in the process of replacing my septic system in Francestown, N.H.

    The ground perked well (not sure of the rate) but there was no water
    down to 10 ft when they dug the hole.  It was a bit rocky at the bottom
    so there may be a need for 20-30 yards of sand at the bottom of the
    leach field.  The esimate I got was:

	Designer	    $ 450
        State Inspection       90
	1500 gal. tank,
	  900 ft� field	     4800
	If sand needed	      300
	-------------------------
	Total possible cost $5640
	
    This includes changing the hookup to the house, and will be designed
    for a 4 bedroom house.  The tank is about 25 ft from the house, and the
    field is about 50-60 ft from the tank.  The pipe from the tank to the
    field passes under the driveway, and needs some kind of sleeve
    (included).

    I'm wondering if this is a reasonable estimate (I'm going to try to get
    some others).  Does this seem like a reasonable estimate?  The guy
    said 20 hours of backhoe work would be required.  Anyone know what the
    rates are for backhoe these days?

    Just for the record, I called a couple of other places, and with the
    specs in .-1 they gave me rough estimates of $6-8K, and $5-10K.  They
    said they needed to see the design for a real estimate, but since I'm
    setting this up remotely with only a short stay in the U.S. I didn't
    have the time for that.

    So, I'm going with the first guy who did the perk test.

    I'll post the results when it's done.

    alf

I wasn't sure whether to put this in here or in 353, but figured this might
be more appropriate and most folks would find it if they looked in 1111.78
anyway.

I just learned of a totally septic system safe means of unclogging sluggish
drains that I never might have believed would have worked if I hadn't seen
it with my own eyes.

I have a second floor bathroom sink whose drain had been super sluggish
for quite some time. It had gotten to the point that you could sometimes
leave water in the sink for an entire day without it draining. Plunging
was of some help but never really "fixed" the problem. A bottle of
septic-safe Liquid Plumber hadn't touched the problem. I intended to snake
the drain to remove the offending clog, but hadn't gotten around to it
yet since I needed to remove the stopper from underneath the sink first.

My mother was visiting and said she'd learned of a foolproof method for
clearing drains safely. She poured a cup of sodium bicarbonate into
the dry sink and pushed the dry powder into the open drain as much as
possible. Following this, in went a cup of cider vinegar. Then we left
it alone for about half an hour and returned with two quarts of boiling
water which we poured in, followed by another two quarts another half hour
later.

Immediately after the last half gallon of hot water went in the drain
worked as slick as a whistle.

Don't ask me how or why, but it worked.

-Jack

    I'll bet if you could seal the drain airtight, you could have literally
    blasted the clog out...
    
    I used to build rockets that ran on baking soda and vinegar. The two
    substance make LOTS of (carbon dioxide?) when mixed...
    
    Edd

Hey, Trooper Edd!

   I would have thought the same type of thing in a closed system. But this
was just an open drain and I suspect most of the CO2 presssure was just venting
back up through the sink. But it still worked . . . 


-Jack

    Is the hot water dissolving the grease in the pipes?
    
    Marc H.

re: .6, Marc

Don't know. As it's a 2nd floor bathroom, the only "grease" should be from
soapscum, etc. - no kitchen waste.

-Jack

    
    	I can see it now, the first septic tank in space...thats quite a 
    payload...
    
    	-Ian

    I have a question about perc tests.
    
    We are looking into buying a piece of land that has already been
    perced.
    
    How/where do we get the results from the perc test?  Will they
    be something that we can understand?  If not, who can help us?
    
    I spoke to a neighbor of this property and he claims to have
    seen the results and says they will need to bring in 9 feet of fill
    to accomodate the septic system, which will put the house up on 
    a hill.  We like this piece of property because it is flat.  
    
    Help!  We already made an offer, "subject to agreeing on floor plan".
    Can we just change our mind and tell them we want our deposit back?
    
    We're meeting with the builder again tonight.  
    
    Thanks

    Check with the towns engineer or building inspector. The town
    engineer where I live (grafton) has the perc info for my home.
    
    Marc H.

If it were me and I had talked to them about how I liked the fact that it 
was flat, and they didn't tell me that it requires a 9' hill, then I'd 
probably decide to walk away.  Assuming that it really does require 9'
of fill -- get the perc test and all the data first.  They should be
willing to give you a copy of the test, but go to the town engineer
anyway -- that person will probably be willing to give you a lot of
straight info about what is required, how soon it is likely to fail, etc.

Actually, though, I like living on a hill -- less street noise, more
privacy, better view, and no matter how much it snows, I can always get 
out my driveway (although I may not be able to get back in).  But it
takes all kinds.  And I wouldn't want to live on fill, not to mention
that adding fill around trees kills them (builders do it anyway).

	Luck,
	Larry

    In designing septic systems you need to know two important pieces of
    information: How large an area in square feet is required for drainage,
    and how deep will it need to be. It is the results of the Perc test and
    deep hole that largely determine these numbers.
    
    	The perc test only determines how much area your leaching field
    must cover to handle the water output from your home. The slower the
    perc rate the larger the area needed. (Also the more bedroom you want
    the larger the area needed.)
    
    	The deep hole test is one of the ways that the depth of the system
    is determined. In Mass you need something like 5 feet above "refusal".
    This means that the *bottom* of the leaching pipes must be located *at
    least* five feet above anything that would not absorb the water that
    the leaching pipes will output. "Refusal" can be rock, ledge, or ground
    water.
    	Since ground water can vary at different times of the year a ground
    water test is usually done in the spring. My system had a deep hole
    test of over 9 feet, which is excellent. Unfortunately in the spring
    the ground water is at two feet. This means that I will need to add
    three feet of fill just to get to the bottom os my leaching field.
    There will be an additional two(?) feet of fill needed to cover the
    pipes after that.
    
    	If I am remembering my numbers correctly, and you are in Mass, the
    most that you should need is 7 feet of fill, and only then if there is
    standing water or solid rock where you would want the septic system.
    
    	Try to find out which Civil Engineering firm did the tests and then
    talk to them. Your realtor should be able to provide their name. If I
    were in *your* shoes and could not get satisfactory information, I
    would have a very difficult time "agreeing on (a) floor plan"  ;-)

    I forgot to mention - Perc tests are measured in Minutes/Inch. That is
    how many minutes does it take for water in a perf pipe to go down by
    one inch. In Mass anything over 30 mins/inch is no good.

>                     <<< Note 4680.3 by KEYBDS::HASTINGS >>>
>    	If I am remembering my numbers correctly, and you are in Mass, the
>    most that you should need is 7 feet of fill.
    
    Well, maybe not.  If a system is built in fill, i.e., when the ground
    water level is < 4 ft below existing grade, they will make you excavate
    the existing ground under the bed and replace it with clean 2 minute
    perc material (screened gravel or coarse sand).  Also, Title V (MA
    environmental code that applies to septic systems) requires excavation
    and fill in a 25' radius around the leaching bed.  We're talking some
    serious fill here.
    
    I'm having a system installed right now, where the highest spring
    ground water reading was 2' below grade.  The plan called for
    excavation about a foot below that.  The BOH inspector came out to look
    at it, and decided that another foot or two had to be excavated.  So, I
    can see how it's possible to end up with as much as 9 feet of fill,
    depending on the whim of the BOH.
    
    BTW, I wouldn't let the fact that a system had to be built in fill
    discourage me from selecting a piece of land.  With all that gravel in
    there, the system is likely to work well for a loooong time.  Just bear
    in mind that the lot probably has a high ground water level, and you
    may run into water-in-the-basement problems unless you put in good
    drainage, and have a place downgrade to run the drains.
    
    Don

    Oh! thanks for the correction. I have just received my OKs from the
    state and town for my septic system. I am in the same boat as .5 in
    that my ground water is at 2 feet. Yes, we are talking serious fill!

    Hi.  Well we decided to back out of the deal.  
    
    We FINALLY saw the plot plan.  The perc tests were done in July 1988!!!
    I do remember seeing 19 minutes/inch on it.  But we asked the builder
    what kind of soil it is and he said "gravel", he hesitated and then
    said "on top of clay".  My father asked him how far down the water 
    table is and he said 4 feet.  
    
    So they would have to bring in fill.  It would cost us ALOT of money
    in the future if we decide to put in an inground pool.  The whole
    think seemed to shaky.
    
    The builder was supposed to bring his references with him and when
    we asked for them, he said he forgot.  Then later on, my husband
    heard him say that he won't supply references unless we give him
    a committment.   I'm sorry, but I don't deal that way.  How can we
    commit to something without researching first?
    
    When we left, the realtor asked us to call as soon as possible "to
    be fair to the builder".  I told her to call us as soon as possible
    with his references "to be fair to us".
    
    Maybe it wasn't the right thing to do, but we put a stop payment
    on our check.  
    
    We are now dealing with another builder on another lot.  He is much
    more reputable.  We've heard nothing but good about him.  He's
    local, he used a local plumber and electrician and he uses top
    quality items.  
    
    Another thing, the original builder was going to give us EVERYTHING
    we wanted, cathedral ceiling, paladian window, covered porch, two-car
    garage, etc.  The second builder said he can't do it within our price
    range.  What does that tell ya?  We feel the first builder would have
    given us "junk" construction.
    
    Thanks for all the replies...  we're learning.

>                            My father asked him how far down the water 
>    table is and he said 4 feet.  
>    
>    So they would have to bring in fill.  It would cost us ALOT of money
>    in the future if we decide to put in an inground pool.

Ah, but if you didn't bring in fill, you'd have a pre-made inground pool
in the basement.

    We would also have a "floating" house.
    
    No thanks
    

This looks like a good place to ask this questions since it is related to acid
treatments. We are in the process of buying a four-year-old house. The owners
(husband and wife with two small kids) had never pumped the septic. As a result,
when the lid was opened, we found that the solids were already shaped like the
bottom of the lid (ie. heaping full). The tank was pumped and the inspector
noticed a trickle of water coming back from the leach field suggesting that it
was starting to clog up. He stated that the system neither passes nor fails
inspection (how's that for being wishy-washy). Someone else suggested doing an
acid treatment just in case. The sellers are proceeding with this measure.

My question is, given the fact that the soil had an excellent perk rate and that
the problem seems to be marginal, what are the chances of this procedure being
successful and us not having a problem with the leach field a year down the
road? Also, what are the chances of this not being needed at all?

Thanks for any help.

    Something is wrong here.....after four years of "normal" operation,
    a septic system should be no where close to "full". If the tank was
    full of solids, then it must have been no organic stuff.
    
    By the way....the top layer looks solid, but it is only ..usually...
    one foot thick. Underneath it, is liquid until you get to the tank
    bottom, when you hit the solid, non organic stuff.
    
    Marc H.

    re:- I agree. The system has either never been pumped for maybe eight
    years or the system is small (under 1000 gallons) for the number of
    beds.
    
    As fas as the acid treatment, I witnessed the inlaws salvage a
    previously neglected system this way with good results.
     
    Watch it though...Dave'
    
               

The house is only 4 years old (and so is the sepcit system) and the tank is 1500
gals. The guy that pumped it was not surprised to see it that full, though.

The tank was not full of solids. The solids at the top were already up to the
lid leading me to believe that the water underneath was not going anywhere. The
tank at my present house has been pumped twice in 7 years and neither time it
has been anywhere close to having solids touch the lid. And this one is only a
1000 gal. tank. That's why I am concerned that an acid treatment may not do the
job. There's no water seeping out of the ground where the leach field is.

Keep them comming. We're about to write up a P&S on this house and I want to
make sure the proper contingencies are included.

Thanks.

When I bought my house in 1987, I had the exact same results from my septic 
inspection.  Honest.  

Previous owners: Two adults, two kids.  I had it pumped as part of the 
inspection.  I lived there for 2 1/2 years by myself, caring for it (no bleach or
chemicals down the drain, white toilet paper, etc).  I had it pumped again as
a precaution.  The guy (same outfit as before) said he rarely sees a system in
such good shape.  Since then there have been 2 to 3 adults living there, and we
have had no problems.

My conclusion is that the previous owners abused and/or overused the septic 
system.  With proper care, it functions properly.  Even a brand new system can
be brought to its knees in a month or two of total abuse.

My advice to you:  Talk to the town engineer/board of health/health inspector, 
whatever the title in your town.  Find a septic plan, and if possible, locate
the system designer and installer.  Decide from your conversations with all
these folks if things will be okay as soon as you start taking care of the system
properly, or if you should write something into the P&S.

Good luck.

Elaine

    
    
    We just went through the horror and stress of having a septic/leach
    installed.  The system we replaced was only 7 years old.  I agree with
    checking the plans and making sure all is in place and writing
    something into the P&S.  Ours failed 2 years after buying the house.