Conference napalm::musclecars

I guess I am one of those nuts with the revolving gig :-).

You can break the repaint done to two types, keeper, non-keeper. Some
would argue that there is middle ground but I don't think so. When you
start fixing some of the stuff "right" and not everything you won't
get your money out. Like stripping it but not fixing the rust. Or only
fixing the visible rust without stripping it. 


nonkeeper:  200 <-> 1500 bucks.

1. Scuff it.

2. Squirt it.

3. If what you are painting on is reasonable (ie no cracks or visible rust)
   this type of job could look good anywhere from 2 days to 5 years. Usually
   closer to the 2 days, but if your not keeping it...

Keeper:  1500 <-> unlimited

1. Strip all chrome, moulding etc.

2, Strip all paint to metal.

3. Replace or repair (MIG) any panel with an iota of rust.

4. Treat the metal (etch). Or at least make sure all the paint remover is 
   removed.

5. Seal the metal. (there are a bunch of good sealers).

6. There are tons of good paint now adays. But they cost. 
   The paint/thinner/catalyst/clear for my Shelby is over 400 bucks.
   thats for 1 gallon color, 1 gallon clear, thinner and catalyst.


					- A.J.

    
    Folks,
    
    Now that winter is nearly upon us - it's project time once again.
    I would love some good Chrome plating shop recommendations for the
    bumpers and other trim on the Cougar.  Can anyone help me out?
    
    Oh yes, in the greater Boston area if possible.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Tom

    
    
    Tom,  Let me know if  you find a reasonable one you like. If you want
    	it perfect and don't mind paying for it, and I mean *paying* I
    	can give you the name of the guy that does all my fathers work.
    	I'm going to need the bumpers on my Shelby soon.
    
    				- A.J.

    re.3
    
    	Could you please list who to call and/or the name of the business
    as I have a 72 vette that will need the chrome done soon too...
    
    					Thanks...Dave

    
    I need to have my headers redone with the aluminum coating.  Everyone
    at the world of wheels this weekend said to bring them to conneticut.
    
    HPC (HIGH PERFORMANCE COATING?) does anyone have a number and address?
    
    Does anyone have any experience dealing with them? I have a set of
    fender wall Hooker headers that are new but I'm sick of touching them
    up when rust appears.  Everyone recommends HPC UNLESS there is another
    place close buy.
    
    Thanks 
    Matt

    
    
    Eastwood CO. sells a product that is for Headers, exhaust manifolds,
    and exhust systems.  It is called Cast Blast and is for very high
    temperatures.
     It comes in a Pint can which you put on the parts with a brush or you
    can spray it on...It looks like NEW...
    
     Brian Yacino or myslef have bought items from them...I have no
    complaints except for that stupid Perfect Paint system that I bought
    for 39.95 , lasted 3 hours, and found the same item at a Dollar store
    Yes, for a $1.00 !!!
    
     They also have chrome coatings, and other stuff too...The pint cans
    are $19.95 per can I think ...
    
    /Bob
          '69  Stang
    
    

High Performance Coatings advertises in Hot Rod and other nutbooks, along
with "Jet Hot".

These two companies apparently are the hot tip when it comes to
metallic/ceramic protective coatings which also eliminate a great deal
of heat transfer, leading to higher power for most engines.

If you can't find an ad, the number for HPC in Tulsa, Oklahoma (home office)
is 405-943-8464. They'll have the Connecticut number.

I don't have a number for Jet Hot.

Bruce

PS - These are not "aluminum paint" coatings. They're highly sophisticated
coatings that are sprayed and baked on at the plant - and they cost quite
a bit. Worth it, in my opinion.

    I have used HPC for a number of applications. I have used their exhaust
    header coating and the head/port/chamber coatings..The exhaust coating
    has proved very durable..On the heads (alum) on a 572 bow tie I have 
    found a number of benifits: the head touque readings are more
    consistant through out the temp. range, I have not had any O rings or
    seals let loose, and in the flow machine I actually gained a few cfm.
     As far as dealing with HPC they were excellent..
    
    Jim

    
    
    I found the HPC number and address in Conn. They gave me a price of
    40.00 to strip the headers and 175.00 to coat both headers.  The person
    was very friendly and helpfull.  I'll post there number and address
    here for anyone else who needs them.
    
    thanks for your inputs
    
    matt-

    
    
    Matt,
    		Please let us know how they turn out. I've been considering
    	jett-hot cast iron for my 428 exhaust manifolds.
    
    	- A.J.

             <<< DLOACT::APP$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARBUFFS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Carbuffs >-
================================================================================
Note 39.136                     Camaro/IROC note                      136 of 136
JUMP4::JOY "Perception is reality"                   24 lines  12-MAR-1993 11:33
                            -< '77 Z28 needs paint >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I have a couple of questions pertaining to my 1977 Camaro Z28. I am
    thinking of selling the car. It is in excellent condition (bought in
    Phoenix and stored every winter after moving to MA), has about 85K on
    it, no rust, mostly all original equipment. The only problem is the
    paint. It is/was silver, which has become terribly oxidized. I saw back
    in note 39.110, a reference for Classic Camaro, which has the decal
    kits for the 78-nn Z's, but the note didn't list a decal kit for the
    '77. I had the car painted once before and the decals cost almost as
    much as the paint job.
    
    My questions are: If I see it, should I put the money into the paint
    job first and hope to get some of it back (I don't think I'll get all
    of it back) or should I sell as is and figure the person who buys the
    car won't mind painting it to their liking. THe car is valued somewhere
    around $6k in the classic car reference books. Paint job could cost as
    much as $2k.
    
    The other question is: If I decide to paint it, can anyone tell me how
    to get the Classic Camaro catalog so I can see IF they have the decal
    kit for the '77 and how much it costs?
    
    Thanks
    Debbie
    
    

    Debbie,
    
     Just so happens I have a Classic Camaro catalog in my office. You can
    call them at 1-800-854-1280 for a catalog.
    
     The do have stripe kits for 77 Z28's, but they are expensive, to the
    tune of $425.65. You may want to look into having them painted on. My
    84 Z28 needs paint and after pricing out the decals (GM only sells piece
    by piece, no kits) the person ( a friend with a bodyshop) who's painting 
    the car said it would be cheaper to have him mask the car and paint the
    stripes on than for him to purchase the decals even at his cost.
    
    Chris
    
    far cheaper for him to paint the stripes.

    Hi Chris,
       I figured the decals would be expensive. I painted the car once
    before and they cost about $300 wholesale. Do you think it would lessen
    the value of the car as a collectible if they were painted on rather
    than decals? I know that the '77s are becoming collectible, due to
    their limited numbers and uniqueness of being the first year Chevy made
    Z28s in the new body style.
    
    Thanks for the phone number. I've give CLassic Camaro a call for the
    catalog at least. 
    
    Any thoughts on whether to paint the car, then try and sell it, or
    leave it as is and let the buyer decide?
    
    Debbie
    

    I'm now looking for recommendations on a place in the greater Worcester
    area to get my '77 Z-28 painted. Still haven't decided whether to get
    the decals or have them painted, I'll ask whoever paints it for a
    recommendation. I'm looking for someone who will do a decent job
    painting the car so it will look good when I try to sell it. It doesn't
    have to be a top-of-the-line paint job, but it should be decent and
    last a few years at least. There is minimal body work to be done, a
    little rust starting to come thru. ANd the interior headliner is coming
    off and needs to be replace/reglued.
    
    Any pointers?
    
    Thanks
    DEbbie
    

    I'm in the process of stripping the paint off the '55.  I've brought
    most of it down to bare metal just ot see what I have to work with.
    My question is....I've got a fair amount of body work ahead of me
    and it's likely that I won't be ready to paint the car for at least two
    months or so.  Does anyone know of any way to protect the bare metal
    from oxidizing until I get around to painting it?  Shooting it with 
    primer may help but this will absorb moisture over time as well.  I'm
    reluctant to put any sort of oil-based stuff on it as I'll need to 
    make sure this is all removed at painting time.
    
    This is my first attempt at painting a car so any help would be
    appreciated.  Thanks,
    
    /jim

Jim,

I don't have an answer to your question but, I do have another question.  What 
did you use to strip the car?  Chemicals or lots of time sanding?  I plan on
stripping the Vega this winter.

Thanks,
Mark

    
    Jim,
    
    You can get a combintion primer/sealer that will do the trick.  There
    are several types and the person at the automotive paint store (Such
    am McNeil's in Marlboro) should be able to help you pick the correct
    one.  Just explain to him what your intentions are.
     
    I'm not shure what you have for equipment but it should be sprayed through
    a gun.
    
    Where are you located?
    
    /ab
    
       

    RE: the last couple....
    
    I've been using both a DA sander and a syphon-type sandblaster with
    very low air pressure (~40-50psi).  I've heard all sorts of warnings
    about sandblasting sheetmetal but if you're patient and careful you
    can get decent results.  The DA is nice on flat surfaces and for
    removing any old plastic filler.  I haven't tried chemicals yet
    although a guy I work with swears by using aircraft paint stripper
    for this type of work.  
    
    I'm located in SHR but live in Plainville (near N. Attleboro).  there's
    actually a big auto body supply house nearby that I've frequented.  I 
    will certainly ask them but I thought I'd throw this one up for grabs
    to see if anyone has any experience with this kind of problem.  I'll
    ask about the primer/sealer...that sounds like it would do the job.  As
    far as applying the stuff, I've got a spray gun.
    
    Thanks!
    
    /jim

    
    I have had the best luck with epoxy based primers such as Ditzler DP40.
    Make sure that you use the appropriate metal conditioners if you are
    painting over bare metal. I use DuPont Metal Prep on bare metal. It is
    phosphoric acid that converts the rust (iron oxide) to iron phosphate
    and makes the surface chemicaly clean for good adhesion. Be sure to
    follow directions and wear the appropriate protective equipment.
    
    my $.02
    
    Don Berry
    

Having painted before, a couple of thoughts:

    Strip down to bare metal only if you have to (a couple of body shops have
told me this).  If the car has been restored several times, and there is 
questionable paint and filler work, then you may have to do the whole car. 
Not fun.

	Use so-called "Aircraft grade" strippers, as they are far faster
and more effective.  Buy a respirator (not a dust mask) up front, and your 
lungs will thank you for it.  Get one with replaceable elements (Sears has 
several models).  The 3M disposable one is nice, but expensive, since it can't
be reused.

    
>    I have had the best luck with epoxy based primers such as Ditzler DP40.
>    Make sure that you use the appropriate metal conditioners if you are
>    painting over bare metal. 

	Epoxy primers are the best, but are a 2-part system (time constraints), 
more expensive, and intolerant of "oops, I forgot to clean the paint gun 
thoroughly" ;-).  

>    I use DuPont Metal Prep on bare metal. It is
>    phosphoric acid that converts the rust (iron oxide) to iron phosphate
>    and makes the surface chemicaly clean for good adhesion. Be sure to
>    follow directions and wear the appropriate protective equipment.
 
	Yes - it's sold by the quart, cheap, and I only used a capful or two
for all the bare metal I had on my truck.  You dilute it with water, apply it,
then wash it off with water.   



Steve

>    Strip down to bare metal only if you have to (a couple of body shops have
>told me this).  If the car has been restored several times, and there is 
>questionable paint and filler work, then you may have to do the whole car. 
>Not fun.

Quality body shops told you this?  Every body man I ever talked with has 
said strip it if you can afford to.

Every car I've owned that's been "scuffed and squirted" has chipped badly 
afterwards.  *Really badly*.

The cars that I've had stripped and painted only once fared much better.

If you want to drag it around in an enclosed trailer, scuff it and squirt 
it.  If you want to enjoy it, strip it.

Oh yea.  When you scuff and squirt, you loose body line details.  I knew a 
Mustang enthusiast whose convertible had so many coats of paint on it, it 
looked like someone had rounded over the peaks of the hood, doors, fenders, 
etc.  It kinda looked like it'd had all the corners sanded off.

    
    RE: -1
    
      That's what you get when you go to MACCO .... HA !
    
    /Bob
    

    I've been told the same about not stripping -- normally you strip only if
    you have to.  The factory primers were applied to metal in brand-new
    condition and in a lot of cases are still sealing a good part of the
    body.  Stripping leaves a good chance that you won't seal it as soon
    or as well as you should.
    
    I'll leave it to the experts to decide.  I just ask the questions ...
    
    Brian
    

>    
>    I'll leave it to the experts to decide.  I just ask the questions ...
>    

That's just it.  I've spent a lot of time and a bit of money in a lot of 
body shops in the past 33 or so years and only the MAACO types and bondo 
promoters have ever recommended scuff and squirt.  The biggest mistake I 
ever made with respect to a paint job was nit taking Ted Koziol's 
(Ted's Auto Body in Westfield) recommendation and have my GTX stripped 
when it was repainted.  (couldn't afford the extra cost).  I wound up 
stripping the factory and body shop paint job off 18 months later.  
The paint was too thick and chipped if you looked crosseyed at it.  The 
body lines weren't all that crisp looking either.

Every restoration shop I have ever been associated with (and currently I'm 
affiliated with one in RI, one in Chelmsford, one in Tyngsboro, one in 
Leominster, and one in Greenfield New Hampshire) them won't touch a car 
unless it's down to bare metal.  I regularly visit these shops to 
install electrical systems in partially painted vehicles (before final 
paint work) and I've yet to see a car get scuffed and squirted there.

I do a lot of work for other "restorers" who don't take the time to strip 
the metal and the quality of their workmanship is easily recognizable.  
There *is* no comparison.

My '48 Chrysler was scuffed and squirted before I bought it.  There are 
even stone chips ON THE SIDE OF THE CAR.  It needs to be stripped and 
redone.  Primer spots are everywhere on that car where the maroon and 
factory gray have been chipped off.

Another reason for stripping to bare metal is that you get to see where the 
metal is about ready to fail and you can replace the panels.

There's nothing worse than painting a vehicle only to have tiny bubbles 
appear the following summer where rust has finally broken through the 
factory paint.

    I've heard experts - guys who work for leading manufacturers - as well
    as good bodymen - all say the same, the original paint is the BEST
    primer. However, in the same breath they also state the thickness of
    the paint should only be XX mils (the exact thickness escapes me) which
    is the thickness of the original paint! So you have to wonder how you
    can "scuff and squirt" over the "best primer" and still achieve the
    ideal thickness !!!
    
    I too have had my car re-done - the scuff and squirt way. However
    before having the body done I stripped the engine compartment and
    repainted it myself. Well, I've dropped wrenches and everything else in
    the engine compartment and it shows very little damage. The body, on
    the other hand, is very susceptible to chips or scratches from anything
    that gets close to it. Also, as Skip stated, the body lines loose
    definition - even after only one repaint.
    
    Therefore... 
    
    While the stripping is one hell of a job to do right, the results would
    make it worthwhile.
    
    Oh yeah, all these experts who have done their own cars stripped them 
    when they did them. This leads me to believe it boils down to which way
    will keep the customer on the hook or generate the most revenue from the
    least amount of work.

    I have another wrench to throw in here. I have been told by several
    "experts" to sand down the original paint to, but not through, the
    original primer layer, and start from there. I did this on my first
    home paint job and the results were pretty good. I used lacquer however
    so the car did chip in a few places.
                                                      John M
    

    
    
    Anybody know know where I can buy a spray bomb of NU-CAST ?  This stuff
    is supposed to give the finish of cast steel.
    
    I want this to spray the hood hinges of my Camaro.  Anything equivalent
    to this finish is fine.
    
    I'm doing a little underhood cosmetics while the motor is out. As some
    of you may know, I am building a motor loosely based on the 420hp 
    Edelbrock Performer engine.
    
    Mark
     

Eastwood sells it via mailorder.

Mark

I used it on my engine block.  It Truly looks like untreated,unrusted cast iron.
 

    Mark, I saw this at Bradlees last month. I picked up a can at Auto
    Palace last fall. It looks grest.
                                                       John M.
    

    Thanks, for the tips.
    
    mh