Conference vmszoo::rc

    The 347 gurus are obviously on one of their patented four hour lunches
    (envy thy sting is...? whatever) so I'll tackle this.
    
    Think of the master/slave as relating to the PRIMARY control function
    of the stick.
    
    Therefore if the primary control function of the right stick in the
    horizontal axis is ailerons then it is master when mixing rudder or
    flaps to it, and as you say, the flaps work as ailerons.
    
    However, on the left stick in the vertical axis the primary function
    is flaps (ignoring throttle for the moment) and mixing any other
    function to it means that the primary flap function is the master.
    
    Another way to think about it is that horizontal stick axis
    functions will never be assigned to flap function and vertical
    stick axis functions will never be assigned to aileron function,
    at least not in any rational philosophic system.
    
    Where's Jim R's son when we really need him ?
    
    Terry

    I didn't want to admit to reading this during compiles because my phone
    would ring 8^)
    
    I couldn't answer the question without the manual in front of me. There
    are probably a few that could in the other file.
    
    The master/slave terminalogy isn't as important as being able to do
    what you want. There are two sections in there ail->flaps and
    flaps->ail. One makes the dual flaps act as ailerons and gives you more
    surface area deflected for turns and the other makes the ailerons droop
    similar to the flaps so you have full span camber changing. My
    personal guess would be that the ail->flaps would be the first case
    (full span ailerons) and the flaps->ail would be the second (full span
    camber changing). If you have a ship with four servos in the wings,
    you'll want both anyways so which to use becomes moot. Jimmy gets home
    from school at 2:45, I'll check with him then 8^)
    
    Just what are you doing to your Spirit and/or Predator, Mike?

    Thanks for the answers.
    
     I guess my question was not how to accomplish the mixes, but
    rather why the conventions were reversed for doing the
    mixes. I had hoped that I could make sense of the logic
    (master/slave) so that I would not need the manual to
    change mixes while at the field. 
    
     What appears to be defined as the conventions for programmable mixes 
    is reversed for the e-f and f-e mixes built into the radio. It just
    seem to add confusion to those already acting with limited
    resources  :-).
    
    Thanks again for the inputs.
    
    p.s. Jim
    
     I have managed to get 4 wing servos in my preditor, with an additional
    tow hook release servo in the fuselage. 
                                                                         
     I dont know what all this talk about limited space is all about! :-)

    Must be the Predator of movie fame. Either that or you've got a nice
    paper weight 8^)
    
    Seriously, the best way to do it at the field is to move the sticks off
    center while you're adjusting percentages and watch the effect. If it
    doesn't do what you wanted, try the other one. I also try to keep one
    of the 4 models free so I can copy into it and change it there and then
    I can always get back to where I was. Sort of like going to the eye
    doctor where they swap things back and forth and ask you which one is
    better.

    While reading the manual for the 100'th time i noticed something:
    
    While the title of the category indicated the incorrect
    conventions; the master channel is always shown first on the
    display. This is true for programmable mix mode or the factory
    mixes. This seems like the easiest way to keep things straight, at
    least for me.
    
    Thanks again for the help.
    
    Regards,
    
    Mike

    
    Does anyone own a TRAINER cable for the X-347.
    Rather than pay JR $10-$15 I thought I'd buy one at Radio Shack.
    I think it's just a 3-wire miniture stereo Headphone jack on each end.
    Can anyone confirm this?
    

It's been awhile since I messed with this but check note 510 and if 
that doesn't give you what you need give Eric Henderson a call. Eric's played
around with the X-347 and trainer cords quite a bit during the past year. I'm 
sure he'd know. 

    I've got one. I got it at RS. It's the mono 1/8" male at both ends
    cable. Works fine.

    
    You mean it's just a 2 wire?
    

    Yep. Just a multiplexed signal over a twisted pair.

    OK, but what about the Direct Servo Control (DSC)??  Again, it must use
    just twisted pair, but which wire goes to which on the switch harness??
    
    Thanks!
    jeff
    

I just bought another RCD 535 Rx. This is the 5ch micro Rx. They fit nice into 
smaller gliders. Well, the first thing I needed an Rx for was my Panic. No
problem, it only uses 5 servos. The flap channel is ch6 so I went in and set the
ch5 range to 0% and then mixed ch6->ch5 100%. This gives me the flap knob control
of ch5. However, when I use the elevator/flap coupling and the landing settings,
ch5 doesn't follow where the virtual flap servo should be going. Can anyone out 
there think of a way of doing this short of using all the free mixes?

I've had a problem with my 347 that's been getting worse and worse. When I use
the radio, I notice that it beeps and the LCD goes blank periodically. I finally
found the cause. A while back I discovered that my field charger shorted the
leads when I plugged one of my cords in. This caused the fuse under the RF module
to blow. Well, it seems that after several fuse replacements the fuse holder got
spreaqd and the problem was that the fuse was loose in the holder causing 
intermittent loss of power. I noticed that if I shook the radio it would cut in
and out. After checking all the battery connections, I decided to see if I had an
intermittent fuse (the little wire loose in the fuse) but was pleased/surprised
to find that the fuse was barely held in place. A slight bend and everything was
rock solid again. Boy am I glad I didn't have to send it in to find that one 
right before the Nats.

    Jim,
    	At least two other HTA's have had the same problem!  Everyone
    should be very careful when replacing the fuse to rebend the spring
    clips.  We're lucky that it hasn't caused a crash yet.
    
    Charlie
    

I came real close last thursday night. I looked for it and looked for it and it
seemed to have gone away when I reseated the battery connector. Then on sunday
it started happening worse than ever. I tried to shake the battery wire but no 
problem. When I shook the Tx it was cutting in and out. I was lucky I found it
at the field and didn't have to send the radio in.

Why are you blowing so many fuses.  Geez next time get Airtronics.

Well, the fuses are there to protect the radio from idiots like me that build 
their own chargers. I used 1/8" phono plugs for connectors on my field charger
and they short as you slide them into the jack. This short is what the fuse 
protects against and it took me a couple of fuses to figure out what was 
happening. The solution is to use different plugs next time and to plug all the
wiring together before plugging into the Tx with what I've got.

    The 1/8 phono plugs cannot be used on power circuits for the reason Jim
    mentions.  They are designed to short on insertion.  The RCA jacks can
    have the same problem if you plug the cord into the TX first.  Always
    plug everything else in first and then insert the plug into the TX. 
    That's the only way to prevent a blown fuse or a damaged radio if it
    doesn't have a fuse.  ALso, the fuse will blow if you try to fast
    charge your TX battery at more than an amp or so.  The fuse is a good
    safety feature, but it's not a very good design in the X347.
    
    CHarlie
    

This is the most recently active 347 note so I'll put it in here. (maybe this 
note, 1371 and 1392 should be combined?)

I've been fighting with the wing servo centering on my Alcyone and 347. I have
four servos in the wings now and have had to recenter my wing servos each 
session. Last night I finally found why. I was reducing my mechanical throws
and increasing my electrical throws to get smoother servo actuation when I 
discovered that if you press the channel button while at the pot.5 setting, it
goes to pot.7 which defaults to trim. I thought I had all the knobs INHibited
but not this one and the knob must have been getting knocked when I handled the
radio between sessions. It's covered in the manual (where'd I put that??) but 
not obvious when you go through the menus in the radio. Finally, I can rely on 
my trim settings from session to session.

Techno-dunce du Jour

    Jim,
    	I would like to highlight what you said about throws.  As you said,
    it is always better to reduce your throws mechanically rather than with
    the travel adjust on the TX.  The servo resolution and deadband errors
    are reduced when you do this.  Also, your servos provide more actual
    torque to the control surfaces when they move more relative to them.
    (more mechanical 'advantage')  
    	Users of computer radios need to be aware of this issue because
    it's so easy to do it the other way.
    
    Charlie
    
    
    The one disadvantage of doing this is the surfaces move slower because
    the servos have to move further for the same surface deflection.  I'd
    rather have the precision than the outright speed.
    

Yep, that's exactly why I did it. The elevator deadband was getting me in 
trouble. I cut it in half by going mechanical. I used an index card and a 
pin pushed into the surface as an indicator and visually saw the deadband 
get reduced. I went in to do this as a cleanup now that I have a comfortable
set of throws and trims. Computer radios make it far too easy to never touch 
the plane once the radio is installed.

Good point about the torque. Hadn't thought of that one. Always important when
dealing with micro servos in wings.

	related to .11

	X-347 seems good Tx-Rx but not enought doc about pinout !


	WARNING THIS IS ONLY A QUESTION !


	DSC usage :

	mono jack 1/8" signal is alternative (checked with scope),
	does it neam that either of the two lead can be tie to  -  of Rx ?

	on PCM Rx signal pin on BAT connector (yellow wire) seems to be an 
	image of modulation received ,
	Does it mean a modulation could be injected in ?

	Is my wiring conclusion right ?


	Rx
	Battery + ---------------------------------------- + BAT
	Pack    - -----------------+---------------------- -
                                   |                         PCM
                                   |                         Rx
	X-347 DSC -----------------+                         connector
        connector
		  ---------------------------------------- signal



	Can anybody confirm or negate this before i try it ?

	Thanks,
				Jean-claude

    I looked for the answer to this in all the 347 and programmable radio
    notes, but didn't find what I was looking for.  So if this is already
    answered please direct me to the answer.
    
    I just used mixing on the 347 for the first time.  Its on a Gremlin
    where I mix the elevetor and aileron servos to get elevons.  Worked
    great during the maiden flights yesterday.
    
    My problem is with trimming this setup.  When I trim for elevator, only
    one servo gets the trim adjustment, and this then results in the
    ailerons being out of trim.  Go back to the aileron servo to trim it,
    and then the elevator is out of trim.  I imagine one could converge on
    this after a while, but is there a better way?  What I am looking for
    is a way to also mix the trim adjustments.  Can it be done?
    
    Please advise.
    
    -Joe

    
    Joe,
    	Read page 37 and 38 of the power section of your 347 manual. It
    explains how to set your tx up for delta wing cofiguration, which is
    how you fly a gremlin. That way your trims work fine.

Are you trying to adjust them to recenter your mechanical trims? The easiest 
way I've done that is to use an index card and a pin in the trailing edge and 
mark the original position and then recenter the trim and move the surface 
using the subtrim option.

Subtrim only moves the specific servo but the mechanical trim should move both 
the mixed surfaces.

There is no magic corrospondence between clicks and subtrim percent.

    Joe,
    
    	Dan has the answer. You want to make sure you've selected the DELTA
    wing option and not the FLAPERON option. Then you plug one servo into
    the elevator channel and the other into the aileron channel. In this
    configuration, your trims will work normally.
    
    Steve

    New X-347 question....
    
    Is there any way to mix any of the switches to the throttle trim?
    
    I would like to preset 1 or 2 throttle trim positions, rather than 
    having to reach for the throttle trim itself.
    
    I tried both acro and glider setups, but I didn't find the mix I
    needed.  I am thinking that if I plug the server into one of the AUX
    channels and do 100% mixing from the throttle to the AUX it might
    help, but I still can't quite figure it out.  If I do 100% mix to
    AUX, do I lose the trim tab adjustment??  If I do have it on AUX,
    which switch would I use and how would I do it??
    
    Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks!
    jeff
    

    
    Jeff, if you are trying to set up a "kill switch for your throttle" 
    slave your throttle to your gear retract switch. Channel 5. |Then
    adjust the offset of channel 1 to close the throttle. Once programmed, 
    when engine is at low throttle, flipping the retract switch will kill
    the engine.
    
    
    

    Well, not really a kill switch, but a defined "mid/low" speed (about
    the speed to keep straight and level, but slow enough line up a
    baloon!).
    
    Also, channel 5 is used for the bomb drop.
    
    It sounds like the right direction though...  Can I slave the throttle
    to the other switch?
    
    Thanks!
    jeff
    

    re: a few back
    
    Thanks for the solution to Gremlin mixing question.  Last night I
    programmed in the Delta wing option, and voila, it worked perfectly.
    
    The way I had done it originally was kludgey, and although it worked
    after a fashion, it was hairy to trim.  
    
    Don't why I never saw the Delta wing described before.  Guess I stopped
    reading at some point and never realized it was there.
    
    These notes files are great for solving problems.
    
    Now, with any luck, tonight I'll try out the delta mix.
    
    Thanks,
    Joe

    No wonder I had such a hard time triming out your Gremlin, Joe!
    
    jeff
    

    Re: -.1
    
    Jeff, I could tell you were sweating it, but it was not my intention to
    put you through a torture test. :-] 
    
    I didn't realize that the trims were
    only working on one side of the wing until I got home and began setting
    up and adjusting things more precisely.  That's when I noticed the
    one-sided trim problem, and immediately put a question into the JR-347
    note to find out how to do it right.  
    
    Tonight, I will be using the Delta wing setup which has the trims doing
    what they are supposed to do.  Much better!
    
    Thanks again for doing the maiden flight on the Gremlin.  Yet another
    Gremlin flies...but that's another note.
    
    Regards
    Joe
       

    I am having trouble getting my X347-RCD Micro 5 channel receiver
    programmed to work with my Robbe Calibra electric glider.
    
    I am using glider mode with the following:
    
    Channel 1    motor on/off switch
    Channel 2    left aileron
    Channel 3    elevator
    Channel 4    rudder
    Channel 5    right aileron
    
    I am having trouble getting the motor to turn on/off, independent of
    the crow function.  With crow enabled the throttle stick acts to raise
    the ailerons to function as spoilerons.  Unfortunately, it also turns
    the motor on.
    
    Page 94 of my manual states "This system(crow) is activated using the
    on/off switch on the top right corner of the transmitter and increasing
    the spoiler(throttle) stick.  This will deploy the crow system as speed
    brakes."  My transmitter activates crow with the switch labeled on the
    page 77 diagram as the "butterfly crow mixing switch.  I must assume 
    this is a documentation error(pg. 94).
    
    Page 94, section 8.11 goes on to state- "Two different setups are
    available for the crow mix, one for each position of the crow on
    and off switch."  This is what I would like to use.  When the crow
    switch is in position 0, the spoiler stick turns the motor on and
    off.  When the crow switch is in position 1, the spoiler stick
    operates the ailerons in crow fashion.  The manual leads me to believe
    this can be done, but I haven't had any luck.
    
    Any help would be much appreciated!
    
    
                                                         Thanks,
    
                                                         Jim

From memory:

I can answer this one. In glider mode the spoiler channel is the throttle 
(number 1) channel. The Crow positions of all the servos are independently 
assigned in BOTH switch positions. You need to adjust the spoiler travel in 
the aileron switch position to zero so it doesn't turn on the motor. If this 
is already done, check the offset and make sure that you aren't setting in 
some minimum offset for the spoilers (which is above the motor control 
threshhold). If this still gives you problems you can program in one of the 
free mixes to cancel out the throttle servo movement by selecting the switch 
BFTI or BFTO position and mixing 1-1 with -100%. The easiest way to debug 
this is to put a standard servo into the throttle channel and see what 
movement you're getting with the switch. I believe the B and C mixes allow 
you to use the butterfly switch (BFTx) as an option.

I think I'm going to leave my manual in here at work so I have the reference
available to verify my own memory of the settings and switch names.

Ok, I've got my manual today. In crow mode (pages 94-95 GLID) you can't 
independently set the throttle/spoiler servo movement. If you have a servo 
plugged into channel 1 you'll get the movement. However, if you take free mix
B or C and select BTF 0 or 1 (the number of the desired switch position shown 
in the crow menu) and mix 1-1 and -100%, you'll negate the actual servo travel 
while still getting the crow movement of the other channels. Give it a try and 
let us know if it works or what you had to do differently. The -100% above 
reflects a setting of 100% travel for the throttle servo in the endpoint 
adjustment settings.

I'll leave the spare manual in my desk for future reference.

    Jim,
    
       Thanks for the recommendation, I will try it and let you know.
    BTW have you heard anything from Hartmut Klingenberg?  He had
    mentioned in a vaxmail to me that he wanted you to purchase a JR
    X347 transmitter for him.  He had asked if I would be willing to 
    send you a check for the money I am going to owe him for the Keller
    70/4 motor he is bringing.  I guess he thought you would buy the
    transmitter with these funds.  I told him this was fine with me
    and to tell me how much to send you.  I never got a reply. it is my
    understanding he is coming to SHR this month.
    
    
                                                      Thanks,
    
                                                      Jim

Hi Jim,

Yes, I've been in contact with Hartmut. The US purchase is on hold for the 
moment since he had an opportunity to "possibly" get a MC20 before coming 
over. I was able to get my 2nd 347 Tx in a week so it won't be too critical
if his deal in Germany falls through. Hartmut will arrive 7/20. If I order
the Tx for him, I pay upon arrival so there's no need to forward the funds 
before ordering.

I enjoy JR programming challenges (like DW1s twin engine synchro trim) as 
long as I hear that they worked or failed afterwards.

Another thought that occured to me was that you could set the travel to 0% on 
the spoiler channel and then use the switch position mix to ADD the amount of 
travel you wanted in the throttle case. I don't think the percentage of travel 
on the spoiler channel would affect the crow/free mixes reaction to stick 
movement. I'd be interested in finding that factoid out also.

I got a couple of manual correction sheets with my new transmitter. I'm going 
to try to find the time to enter them into a new topic so that people with 
older manuals can get them also.

In getting ready for my weekend sessions last night, I decided to spend some
time setting up the Gremlin on a buddy box. As Joe Marrone mentioned elsewhere,
the Gremlin uses the Delta wing configuration on the 347. I bought a Max4FM 
system a while back as a spare flight pack and possible buddy box system. I 
plugged it in expecting to only get simple elevator/aileron servo movement.
I was pleasantly surprised when the Delta mix was active through the buddy box 
sticks. The stick centerings were off between the two systems but I found that 
if I temporarily switched to normal wing mode and reset my buddy box trims to
avoid the servos moving when the trainer switch was thrown, it made it correct
for the Delta configuration too (I the Delta mode it moved both servos so to 
fix one glitching, you needed to move both trims to cancel the movement on the
other side) The Gremlin is a unflown model so I did all this with all my 
deflections at 100% and my sub and mechanical trims centered. After doing all 
this I decided to "fix it right" so I opened the Max4 and reset the center on 
the stick pots so that the trims were again centered. I now have a matched pair 
of Txs which don't glitch when I throw the switch. I had wondered about the
"wing" mixings and the simple buddy box. Now I know. One further piece of 
information is that the buddy box must have a charged battery to work. I had let
my son use the Tx pack in his RC car Tx and needed to reinstall it in order to 
get it to work. The buddy cable I'm using is a simple 1/8" mono phono jack (male
to male) patch cable. I got a 6' one from Radio Shack, right off the shelf. I'll
be letting people use the buddy box system this weekend and will report back any 
problems I discover.

    I received my RCD 5 channel receiver and was able to get it to work
    with my electric with suggestions from this note.  I will post
    the settings.
    
    It seems that the differential function does not work as the manual
    states it should.  When I select 50% differential, I do not notice
    the proper change.  In fact it appears to work in reverse.
    
    Anybody notice this problem?
    
                                                         Thanks,
    
                                                         Jim

Reverse the servo connections and reverse both channels.

I've had to do similar things depending on whether I had my aileron horns on 
the top or bottom.

The manual is confusing and possibly wrong but I never understood the description
well enough to be sure I hadn't done it wrong.

    I found out the hard way that the programming I did for my 5 channel
    RCD receiver for my ARCUS electric had a problem.  When I activated
    the ailerons as spoilerons with the throttle stick, the ailerons
    would not function as ailerons.
    
    The ship veered off to the left on the landing and hit hard, breaking
    the stab off.  Thank god for plura fuselages!  At this point I am
    sorry that I just didn't buy another 7 channel receiver.
    
                                           Regards,
    
                                           Jim

I've had this problem with the Alcyone and have worked around it in a couple 
of ways. The problem is that the servo will go to max travel at about 125% 
saturation. The mixing is additive. 100% flaps will only give you 25% ailerons 
no matter how much you bend the sticks. The problem I was seeing was that my 
mixes were adding up to more that 125% so the first n% of the ailerons were 
just negating the saturation (read not moving the servo). I fixed this in two 
ways. I set the percentage mix on my spoiler stick to the value that just 
started to back off the servo as I decremented the mix. I then found that the 
3/8" movement of my ailerons gave me 90 degree flaps on one side and 75 degrees 
on the other so I set one of the free mixes to be activated with the butterfly
switch to double my aileron travels. When I switch to crow configuration I have 
a 2-2 100% mix active which moves the ailerons much more and I get more 
difference in the two sides and better control in crow mode. The thing that you 
need to worry about is that if you dump the spoilers/crow because you're coming 
up short, you still have the more effective ailerons. This isn't a problem for 
me since I generally fly on low rates under most conditions and the switch 
doesn't give me that much more than my normal high rates.

I also learned the hard way that equal percentages in the radio aren't always
equal deflections on the surfaces. Take the time to measure the deflection on 
both ailerons. This is what caused my crow to fall off to one side while 
competing in the Nats.