Conference vmszoo::rc

    
    I have an Eaglet 53, and I wish I had it to learn on.  It flys very
    smooth and is a pleasure to practice all sorts of maneuvers with.
    I love landing it (touch and go's etc.).  I'm sure the 63 would be
    even easier (larger plane).
    
    Ken

I'll add my vote for the Eagle 63 being a great trainer.  The kit was very easy
to put together, it looks almost like a real airplane, and it flies slowly
enough to learn on.  Once you become proficient at flying it will even do some
decent maneuvers.

-scott

    
    	Interesting, I just finished a PT20 and I'm sure it had a 
    semi semetrical wing. Had it up last weekend, or should I say
    someone else did. It seem to glide like a glider when it comes
    in for a landing (under someone elses control). It sure is nice
    to have it fly by itself once I let go of the sticks.
    	I like my PT20. Different strokes for _________.
    
    				Michael Gallant
    

    
    	Dan,
    
    		Don't take offense, I'm just trying to understand, why
    	do you say "because of the airfoil" if they both have
        semi-semetrical foils?
    		There is one other thing about the PT20 that I liked
    	and that was since I built the wing up without alerons and
    	with washout, and a large dihedral,(good stability for a 
    	rookie), I can buy a wing kit from them at a later time 
    	and build a wing with alerons, no washout, and less dihedral
    	and end up with a new plane to learn 4 channel on, that is
    	providing it don't make it kiss the ground before then.
    	Just a thought.
    
    				Michael Gallant
    

    
    		A light!!! You were talking Northeast Areodynamic
    Train-Aire 20 vs Great Planes Trainer-20 not Great Planes Perfect
    Trainer 20.
    		I think I said it right but my stomach still feels 
    confused. 
    		Your right we should tell them to stop the merchandising
    bullshit and leave our heads alone. Thanx for straightening me out.
    
    					Mike
    

    If we're talking about trainers in general, many of the guys I fly
    with started with either the First Step or the Sig Kadet. Both are
    flat bottom wings, both can be built with or without ailerons. Both
    are easy to fly, takeoff, and land, and (almost) impossible to stall.
    The Kadet is more rugged, but the First Step is a bit easier to
    build.
    
    Being very, very stable designs, neither is very aerobatic, and
    I would recommending going to a little hotter plane for an aileron trainer
    (My Sig Kavalier is still on the bench, but I'm warming up this
    spring on the Kadet and hope to have the Kavalier in the air in
    a few weeks).

    Dave

        Re:< Note 129.7 by GOLD::GALLANT >

                After destoying  the  original PT-20 wing (vertical crash
        from 80 feet  at  full throttle, fuse intact!), which was without
        ailerons, large dihedral and  NO  washout,  I built the next wing
        with less dihedral, ailerons and  washout.    The  plane  is more
        challenging to fl, but is still  very  stable.    I would suggest
        going  to ailerons right away and not  start  with  a  3  channel
        system.
        
        Anker

     Rumor has it that Northeast Aerodynamics (Revere, MA) went out
    of business some time last year. If I'm not mistaken, another company
    will be producing their planes. Anyone know the scoop on this? 
    
    As an owner of a Train-Air 40, I'd hate to see the designs go down
    with the company as I have been very hapy with the plane.

        Re:< Note 230.68 by JOULE::SNOW >

                (Mistake #  n).  The Trainer 40 is im my opinion (I owned
        one) a very  poor  trainer.    Doesn't  self correct, needs to be
        dflown all the time, and flies like greased lightning.  Put it on
        the shelf ahd buy the Train-air. It's a much better trainer.
        
        Anker

		Saturday was  just perfect for flying.  The sun broke out
	in the afternoon  and  the  wind  didn't  get  much  over a fresh
	breeze.
	
		Having aquired the proper gas fuel lines for the Malloney
	(thanks to Tower they came  in  Friday  -  ordered  Sunday) I put
	about 6 flights on the Ribinhood.    This  ship  must be the best
	trainer  ever made.  It flies like a real plane and all  feedback
	is  strong and consistent.  It's also the first plane I have ever
	had where  you  could see the effect of making coordinated turns.
	The other advantage  is  that  it's so big that grass doesn't get
	you into trouble.   You  can  take  off  and  land  anywhere on a
	reasonably well mown field.   The Malloney also ran like a dream.
	Not a single hiccup, and it sounds and looks fantastic.
	
		The only arguments against using it  as  a trainer is the
	investment,  which really isn't that bad;   the  work  needed  to
	build  - and potentially repair it;  and finally the  awesomeness
	of a 15" prop.
	
		Given that a trainer should teach you to fly and not  how
	to cope with the tantrums of small engines and long grass I would
	vote for the Robinhood.
	
	Anker

    Anker,
    
    Yer observations in .-1 are precisely the logic I've always applied
    in recommending larger models for trainers...you get lots more air-time
    and you learn to fly..., not "flit!"
    
    Adios,	Al

    
    Ok, I've had RC cars for a couple of months, and I keep jumping in this
    conference to see if there are any RC car-ers saying anything.
    
    Well... it was bound to happen.  I want to try my hand at planes, and
    so I'm in the market for a good trainer.
    
    I crash my cars alot, so I guess I'm looking for something durable.
    I want to spend under $300, but tell me if that's unreasonable.
    
    So, would it be best for a true beginner to start off with a 2 channel
    trainer (Like the cox ones I see in hobby stores), or maybe a 4
    channel?
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    Also, how much instruction does it generally take before one can go out
    and fly alone?  Is it at all safe (to the plane I suppose) to take a
    good slow plane out into a big grassy field and give it a go w/o
    instruction?
    
    Thanks,
    Steve
    
    
    

    Steve,
    
    Working backwards on your questions; no, it isn't safe to the plane
    or anything else to go out and try it on your own. At the very least
    it's frustrating and discouraging. Get an instructor, please.
    
    IMHO the planes commonly used as trainers are unecessarily fast,
    too small, etc. I'd look for a high wing design with polyhedral
    in the wing, ~ 72 in. span, able to use a .10-.20 size engine,
    rudder and elevator control only, plus throttle if desired.
    The Piece O' Cake is one kit of this type, also several others
    just like it, whose names escape me. Marks Models makes one.
    
    Don't bother with anything less than a 4 channel radio. It's not
    cost effective to get a 2 channel, even if you only use 2 of the
    4 channels for a while.
    
    If you're going to have an instructor with you at all times for
    most of the learning curve then your choice of planes expands,
    but if you want to be on your own as soon as possible after
    the initial few hours of instruction, then you need a big, slow,
    inherently stable airplane.
    You're going to get plenty of advice, be forewarned.
    
    Terry
    

The PT40, with an OS.40FP.  There's nothing in second place.

    The Goldberg Eagle II is at least as good as the PT40.  I like it
    better and I've flown plenty of both as an instructor.  Go with a 40
    sized trainer with a flat bottom airfoil like the Eagle II or PT40. 
    Get some help building it and setting it up - then find an instructor
    to test fly it for you and give you instruction.  I'm sorry, but this
    is the ONLY successful way to get into RC flying.
    
    Charlie
    

    So what's the initial setup cost for a PT40?
    
    I have a Futaba 4Ch Conquest radio, so I assume having that would
    eliminate a fair amout of the cost, right?  (I use it with an RC truck,
    but don't plan on using the two together.
    
    Thanks for all the info,
    Steve
    

    Make sure you have an airborne frequency. There are surface-only
    frequencies that are used for car/truck racing.
    
    The next biggest cost is going to be the engine. OS is popular,
    plentiful and reliable. Don't forget all the little things like hinges,
    horns, covering, wheels. It all adds up. Get a recent RCM or Tower Talk
    out and look at the tower ad. Get the kit price and choose an engine
    and then add $30-$40 to that for the little stuff. The Tower catalog
    has completer packs for some of their kits and does have Combos which
    include the engine as part of the deal. I don't know if the PT-40 falls
    into this group and I don't have any hobby stuff in my office (but 
    someone who does might respond next)

    I've checked the frequency, and I'm pretty sure it's an air-frequecncy.
    If it's not, I just have to change the crystals, right?
    
    

    There are notes in the Radio topics that will explain why NOT to change
    the crystals yourself.
    
    The short form is that while it is common car practice to change
    crystals to fit into a heat, the airplane usage requires maximum range
    and that means that you have to be fine tuned for the setup you have.
    There are variations between crystals of the same frequency that can 
    screw up your tuning. In a word, don't.

    Re: .21,
    
    Please be advised that, if you're using an aircraft radio in a surface
    vehicle, you are in violation of AMA and FCC regulations.  The
    possibility of your shooting down an RC plane flying [legally] nearby 
    on the same frequency is a very real one and you'll make yourself
    *_VERY_* unpopular if you're discovered to be the responsible culprit.  
    
    Also, if a frequency change is necessary, please have the manufacturer 
    or an authorized factory repair center do the work.  As has been stated,
    merely changing the crystals does not guarantee that the radio system
    will be in optimum tune and, again, you run the risk of losing your
    airplane or shooting down someone elses due to poorly tuned equipment. 
    The cost for this service is quite reasonable, especially considering
    the peace of mind it provides.
						 __
				|      |        / |\	   	       
      	         \|/		|______|__(o/--/  | \	   	       
      | |        00	       <|  ~~~  ____ 04 ---- | --------------------
    |_|_|        (O>o		|\)____/___|\_____|_/	   Adios amigos, Al
      |     \__(O_\_	        |	  |___/	 o	   (The Desert Rat)

My answer on the PT40/OS .40 was a little flippant; I expected
lots of folks coming in and saying how good their trainer was.
Little did I dream that it would be several days before anyone
nibbled on it!

Actually, I *am* enthusastic about the PT; I can crash planes as
good as anybody, and the PT has been very forgiving of my
foibles.  As mentioned elsewhere, the biggest fault of the plane
is that you can easily fly it down below the speed where the
ailerons become ineffective.

If you dumb-thumb the ailerons to make the departure turn at
takeoff for instance, you'll find yourself going the other way
real quick due to adverse yaw.  Its taken me a while to get into
the habit of using the rudder and ailerons *ALL* the time (I've
forced this because there's some scale stuff coming up...).  

Of course, in the long run this enforces a good habit, but its a
little unnerving at first.  Then again, this last weekend I had a
chance to crash a 3-channel job and I found myself using the left
stick to steer it...wouldn't have mattered anyway.

If you build one, be sure to airfoil shape the stab and fin
surfaces; the plane has a tendency to be tail-heavy with the
light OS in the nose and the shaping will take out some of that
nasty weight.  When I built mine, I actually did the surfaces out
of 1/4 inch balsa sticks, and it still came out needing an ounce
or two in the nose.

Check the keywords for PLANE_PT40...or whatever its listed as
under 11.1 and read away!

    My recommendation for a trainer is as follows:  First of all I 
    don't recomment at all to start with a aileron plane. Things are
    complicate enough for a beginner, the plane should be flown with 
    rudder, elevator and throttle as the maximum configuration. If you find
    a plane with just rudder and throttle, that would work just fine.
    
    The next requirement is a very  s l o w  flying plane, I've seen 
    socalled trainers that flew at a much too high speed giving the
    newcomer pilot way too less time to react.
    
    The third requirement is easy building. The frustration of a beginner
    to open the box seeing just balsa sticks and stuff and a plan that
    will be hard to read could be a real hobby stopper.
    
    The engine should be a easy handling one, no pumper nor carburettor 
    with lots of needles and adjustments. It should be a midsize like
    a 40 with a good muffler !  I personally don't like this sreeming
    engines with just a stock muffler, a SUPER SILENT muffler or something
    like that is what I would recomment. A beginner should be aware of
    these kind of problems we are fighting with as soon as they start this
    hobby - lets say a kind of pilot education like safety rules etc. 
    
    The best flying trainer I've ever seen is doubtless a SIG Kadet Senior.
    This plane is flying so slow and hard to stall, take-offs are easiest
    with hans-off and the visibility is due to its size great.
    Unfortunatelly it's not that easy to build and takes some time to
    complete one.
    
    A good alternative to this are those electric gliders like Goldberg's
    Electra or similar. Since you got Nicads and chargers from your cars
    all you need is the kit for around $50.- (engine included) and maybe a 
    speed controller or stearable motor switch.
    This plane has above mentioned flying advantages and it is easy enough to
    build. You don't need to mess with the engine stuff right in the
    beginning.
    
    Your radio used controlling your cars is probably a 27 MHz radio or any
    other frequency exept 72MHz. If it is so you will not be able to just
    plug in a new crystal. This crystal swapping ONLY works if you stay in
    the same frequency range (27.125 MHz interchangeable with 27.205 MHz 
    or 72.375 MHz with 72.450 MHz,  IT WON'T WORK 27.125 MHz to a 72.350 MHz)
    
    I don't want to mention the necessity of having an instructor right
    from the beginning - most was said before.
    
    
                      \\
                       \ \                    __
                        \  \                  \ \
                         \  \                  \ \
                          \  \                / \_\
                           \  \              /LO |
		       .o^^^--------==========___/
		      <      \  \-''
		       '-___-'\  \            
			       \  \
                                \  \          Holm- und Rippenbruch,
                                 \ \
                                  \\                          Bernd

    I was the first person out to Ware yesterday and had the pleasure of
    greeting the latest batch of novices. I flew two different PT-40s and
    they both were very stable. Don't forget the downthrust as one of them
    did. Climbed like a scalded cat and once trimmed for level flight,
    required all the elevator to flare. I found a happy medium where it
    would climb under full power and stay level at half and glide
    reasonably deadstick (break in that engine or risk going deadstick at a
    bad time.) The owner had set it up with the rudder on the right and the
    ailerons on the left so I flew it that was and the ailerons were
    ineffective at the travel he had set up. My feeling is that you should
    build with ailerons and if you don't was to fly it that way, leave them 
    ineffective. You'll grow into them.  Nice flying planes. That was the
    first I had flown them and they handled well. (two buddies that built 
    similar planes)
    
    You want big and slow? Kadet Sr. with a good .40 We've got one at the
    field and the kid that's been flying it all summer has had a ball with 
    it and has really come a long way
    
    Not to sound too crass but, Join a club, find an instructor(s) and take
    their recommendation. Then they'll be more likely to help you out when
    you need it. 

OK, I've checked the Frequency on the 4 channel radio that I have, and it's a 
Car/Boat only freq. in the 75mHz range, AM.

The radio I have is a Futaba Conquest.  Is the AM band acceptable for RC planes? 
All I see in ads in the magazines is for FM or digital signals.

In addition to a plane, I'd assume that I'd need the following. (Assuming I can 
use the radio I have... with new crystals... installed by an expert of course)
	- Engine
	- 4 servos
	- receiver
	- fuel and other misc things

Anything else?  So what am I looking at for total initial investment thus far?

I've looked at the PT-40... but I think I'd rather go for a more 
crash-resistant plane, like one make of foam or something similar.  I think 
durability is top priority in what ever plane I get, because even after 
lessons, I have a feeling that I'll be prone to the occasional crash landing.

    [of course after reading all these replies, it seems that PT's are
    pretty resistant to crash landings, so maybe that'll be the way to go]
    
The building of the plane isn't the reason I don't want to go with a wooden 
plane right now.  I know I wouldn't have any trouble building it. (I used to 
build balsa gliders when I was a bit younger)

I live in Westboro, so is there anyone from the Westboro RC club that would be 
willing to show me what I need to get started?  Someone to help me fly next 
spring would be great as well.  I guess I plan on getting a plane sometime 
around Christmas, but I'm going to school in Boston for 3 months, and won't 
have time to fly until April.

Thanks,
Steve

    
      Some thoughts on getting started.
    
        If you are going to need a new reciever and 4 servos, you would be
     better off (cheaper) to purchase a complete new 1991 ready radio. For
     example: The Futaba conquest 4 channel FM system compete with nicad,
     3 servos, and a dual conversion reciever is about $130 through mail
     order. Buying the 4 servos seperately would run about $70, and a new
     AM reciever would be about $70, and this would still leave you with an
     converted AM system vs a new FM system.
         The PT-40 seems to be a solid first plane, and it usually is one
     of the top recommended trainers. It builds easy also. If you get the
     proper instruction, the crash potential wil be greatly minimized.
     There is aso something to be said for learning how to repair an
     aircraft. If you stay in the hobby for any ength of time, it will
     be a skill you will need to learn. Almost everybody crashs one in
     awhile. The PT-40 is also a 3 channel plane, so you only need 3 servos
     to start with, although an option (extra cost) is to build another wing
     with ailerons (need a fourth servo, wing kit)
         Other start up costs vary depending on how fancy you want to get.
     Listed below are some typical minimim startup costs (Through Mail
    Order). Add 20-40% if purchased though most local hobby shops.
    
          Futaba Conquest FM 4 channel - $130
    
          PT-40                        - $ 60
    
          OS max FP-40 engine          - $ 60
    
          1 gallon fuel                - $ 12
     
          Electric starter             - $ 25 (optional, but much safer for
                                               starting engine)
          Nicad (for glow plug)        - $ 15  
          
          12 volt battery              - $ 15  (only needed if electric
                                                starter is purchased)
          Glue (Epoxy and CA)          - $ 15
    
          Covering (2 rolls)           - $ 20
    
          Spinner                      - $  3
    
          2 props                      - $  4
    
          Wheels                       - $  8
    
          Rubber bands                 - $  2
    
          Heat Iron (for covering)     - $ 15                            
    
          Heat Gun  (for covering)     - $ 15 (optional)
    
          Field box kit                - $ 25 (optional)
    
          AMA Insurance                - $ 40/year
    
          Club Dues                    - $ 30/year
          ----------------------------------------------------
    
          Total                          $ 454 (not including heat gun or
                                                field box.)
           
    
          I hope this hasn't scared you away. One thing to keep in mind is 
    you don't need to purchase everything at once. Buy the kit and the
    glue and start working, when you get to the engine and radio
    installation steps of the process, buy the engine and the radio. Things
    like fuel, starters etc are not needed until you are ready to fly.
       If you can, I would recommend getting your AMA membership, and
    join a cub ASAP. It will be a very helpful learning process to attend
    the meetings. This is a great place to get your questions answered, and
    get assistance with the building process.
    
                                                   Hope this helped,
    
                                                      Dan 
    
    

    Great, thanks alot... From reading the notes in this conference,
    getting an instructor is a priority when I get ready to go.
    
    My father, who got pretty excited when I mentioned the fact that this
    is something that I'd like to do, seemed to think that we could just
    [pardon the pun] 'wing it' ourselves... I quickly talked him out of
    that.
    
    So, do instructors charge a fee, or is helping out a rookee something
    they do out of the goodness of their heart, rather than the need of
    their wallet?
    
    BTW, thanks for all the great advise...
    
    Steve
    

 Steve,

  There is a club in Westboro, the Central Mass. Radio Control Modelers (CMRCM).
Quite a few of us here in the RC file and DECRCM file belong to this club (and
many belong to others in the area too).  CMRCM meets the first Monday of the
month (unless it's a holiday, then it's the 2nd Monday) at 7:00pm at the church
in downtown(?) Berlin.  It's right on rt 62 about 2 1/2 miles from 495.

  Several of local DECies are instructors for the club.  There is no charge for
the instruction.  With the help of Charlie Watt (LEDS::WATT) I was able to solo
on my 16th flight.  Of course, I was flying a Kadet Sr. which has a top speed of
about 1 mph (with a tail wind) and is the most forgiving plane imaginable.  I 
flew mine with an OS .40FP and it had plenty of power.  The only problem with
a Kadet (Sr., Jr., Seniorita) is the stick construction.  It takes a lot of
time and patients to cut all those 1/4 inch sticks and get a tight ship.
  Stay away from foam planes!  You can replace balsa sheets and sticks after
a crash...you just throw a foam plane away.



                      Jim

    Steve,
    	I am one of the Westboro club's (CMRCM) instructors and I would be
    glad to help you get flying in the spring.  Take the advice here and
    build a balsa model, either a PT-40, an Eagle II or one of the other
    recommended PRIMARY Trainers.  Do not get sucked in by the ads that say
    some planes are more Crash Proof than others.  You want a plane that
    Flies Well not one that Crashes Well.  With patients and an instructor,
    you have a good chance of soloing without destroying your plane.  I
    also agree with Dan that you would be better off buying a complete
    radio package (1991 Dual Conversion) if you need a receiver and servos. 
    The pricing policies of all of the radio companies favor complete
    systems and you will have a matched set of equipment on an aircraft
    frequency.  You could always sell your car radio to a car person.
    Give me a call or send me mail on LEDS::WATT if you have any questions
    on local flying, building, or if you need any other beginner's advice.
    
    
    Charlie
    

    
    Thanks alot Charlie... I'll be in touch next spring if I can get this
    whole thing together.
    
    Anyway, is anyone going to be flying anywhere around Westboro this
    weekend.  I've been told the weather is going to be fairly good
    (50s-60s) but I don't know about the wind.   I'd like to come out and
    watch and ask some questions if any of you are flying.
    
    Just let me know when and where...
    
    Thanks,
    Steve
    

    Due to hunting season, CMRCM is only open to flyers on sundays until
    some time in december. There are usually people down there when it opens. 
    They don't start until 10am. Directions are at the flying site topic. 
    Maybe if someone expects to be going they can contact you and arrange to 
    meet you at the gate

    Steve,
    	I'll be there by about 11:30 on Sunday.  You will have to hoof it
    in unless someone is there to open the gate.  Park at the top of the
    hill and hike down the road past the gate.  At the bottom of the hill,
    make a right onto a dirt road.  This road leads right to the flying
    area.  Ask for me when you get there and I'll show you around.  Also,
    if you need directions, give me a call at home.
    
    Charlie Watt
    842-0976 Home
    237-6437 Work
    
    

    As I put in another note,I have purchased a half built Precedent Hi-Boy
    trainer.I have gone through the instructions to find out what stage the
    plane is at,which the tail needs to be finnished off.The main parts
    have been stuck,but the instructions say to round off the pieces
    including the elevators,now what is the best way to do this,it's a
    while since I did any woodwork,and I'm not sure wether I should tapper
    the elavators as I know they are on full size aircraft,but how would I
    get the correct shape?
    
    Tyrone
    

    The elevators should be tapered of to about 3/32" or so such that you
    have a triangular shape. The leading edges of the rudder, horizontal
    stab should just be rounded off. If I remember correctly all the wood 
    here is 1/4" so as an approx round off the edges to form a semicircle
    with a diameter of 1/4". This is easier to do before gluing them in
    place.
    
    I had a HiBoy for a number of years a while back - great trainer and
    super with a OS46SF on the front end. Although I went over board one
    time and popped an OS91 4S on to it - did the best flat spin landing
    ever ! But I would not recommend doning same 8-).
    
    I would recommend putting some hard balsa on the wing leading edge in
    the center where it mates with the fuse. After a few rough landings the
    veneer gets a little crumpled!
    
    Also its no harm to put some triangular stock inside the fuse from the
    trailing edge of the wing back to the tail. Gives that little extra bit
    of strength.
    
    Regards,
    
    Eric.