Conference krakar::f1

DC's McLaren was powered by Mercedes in the '97 OZ GP.  When was the last time
a Mercedes powered car took the win in a GP?

Dave

RE: .620

Actually, it was powered by an Ilmor engine with a valve cover plate 
that says "Mercedes" on it.  I think the last time that Mercedes had 
their name on an engine, it was one that they actually designed and 
built themselves.

--PSW

    1955 Italian GP, won by Fangio

re prev, This was the race that shortened quite a few lives wasn't it ?

 Hence their reason for pulling out,I seem to remember. (not that I was about in 
'55, my dad was still on christmas island)

>re prev, This was the race that shortened quite a few lives wasn't it ?

That was the LeMans race, not the GP.

Dave

    Actually there were several factors that pushed Mercedes into retiring
    from racing: Le Mans 1955 with 80+ people killed was the most dramatic,
    Mille Miglia accident when Fon Portago's Ferrari ran into a dense crowd
    was the next one. The Monza accident when Von Trips was killed was the
    final deciding factor.
    
    Mercedes gradually accepted to see their name on race cars. The London
    Sydney marathon was one of the early events. The German DTM was the big
    return, before the Sauber team got into Le Mans type racing.
    
    I fully agree that the basic difference between F1 and other
    disciplines is that McLaren use Ilmor engines (sponsored by Mercedes
    but actually not designed/built by Mercedes).

    Patrick,

    You may have confused a few events there . . .

    Mercedes pulled out in 1955, indeed as a result of the Le Mans crash. 
    See _Quicksilver Century_ for the whole story.

    De Portago's Ferrari accident was in 1957.  Twelve were killed in all,
    including the Marquis and his navigator.  That was the last Mille
    Miglia, IIRC.

    Von Trips' accident (involving Jimmy Clark by the way) at Monza was in
    1961, where Phil Hill clinched the world championship.

    George

Maybe the second two were just reasons for MB to *stay* out of racing as long
as they did?

Dave

    That's right, the deciding factor was Le Mans but the next fatalities
    pushed Mercedes to completely get out of motor sport, not only just
    endurance.                                                         

    An encouraging thought for Coulthard is that in the 90s, the driver who
    won the first race has only once failed to win the championship in the
    same year. So, who was the person who missed out, and which year?

Driver: Villeneuve
Year:   1996

Cheers,

Andre

1990 - Senna won at Phoenix - WDC
1991 - Senna won at Phoenix - WDC
1992 - Mansell won at South Africa - WDC
1993 - Prost won at SA - WDC
1994 - Schumacher won at Brazil - WDC
1995 - Schumacher won at Brazil - WDC
1996 - Hill won in OZ - WDC

So far, in the '90s, the winner of the first race has won the WDC.

Dave

    Well it just goes to show you shouldn't believe what you read in the
    press - I picked that "fact" up from an on-line news service and didn't
    check it. They thought it was 1993 where Prost didn't win Brazil, but
    as your records show, the first race was South Africa that year. So,
    even more pressure on Coulthard.
    
    Apologies..... 

Who was the last driver to win the first two races of the year 
but not the championship ?
What's the bets on that happening this year.

	Of course whilst Schumacher did win in Brazil in 1995,
	his car was disqualified (under the amazing two headed
	decision of the FIA over the 'Legal Illegal Fuel'
	incident)

	The other driver who was/wasn't disqualified was Mr
	Coulthard.

	-John

    Better get in quick before Dave B....
    
    Prost started 1982 with 2 wins and didn't win another race that year
    (in fact I don't think anyone won more than 2, and Rosberg won the
    championship with 1 win). I don't think it's happened since, but I'm not
    100% sure.

Nigel, you are right about 1982 - it happened a few times before, but not since.
Here's my list of drivers who have won multiple races at the start of the season
and the WDC results:

Year  Driver	   WDC?	Number of races won from start of season
1953  Ascari	   Yes	3
1954  Fangio	   Yes	3
1957  Fangio	   Yes	3
1969  Stewart	   Yes	2	
1973  Fittipaldi   No	2
1976  Lauda	   No	2
1979  Laffite	   No	2
1982  Prost	   No	2
1991  Senna	   Yes	4
1992  Mansell	   Yes	5
1994  Schumacher   Yes	4
1996  Hill, D	   Yes	3

So, if DC can rack up 3 wins, he's got it in the bag, but with just 2, chances
are he won't win the title.

Dave

Was 1982 the year we had a race that wasn't counted by FISA - won by 
Carlos Reutemann ?

I think it was 1980, but it was the Spanish GP won by Jones.  There were the 
'Race of Champions' or something like that held in England for a few years
that featured current year F1 drivers, but it was not part of the point system.
I don't have a listing of those results.

Dave

    Schu jnr got on the podium in his 3rd. GP, how long did it take his big
    brother to do the same?

    At least one Williams has been on the front row of 25 of the last 26
    GPs. Which was the race with a Williams-free front row?
    
    Edward.

Monaco, 1996.

/Mario

It took M Schumacher 8 races to get on the podium, Mexico 1992.  He won his
18th race (Spa 1992) so let's see if R Schumacher can beat that as well.

Dave

April 27, 1997 - Frentzen wins his first F1 race.

23 years minus 1 day ago, a 'neighbor' of his did the same - who was it?

Dave

 
 Not quite a neighbor, but it depends from where you look at it:

 Niki LAUDA  in Spain,  Ferrari 312B3

(2. hist teammate Clay Regazzoni, 3. Emerson Fittipaldi/ McLaren)

 -Tom.

    Here's a good one I saw the other day - who's the youngest ever winner
    of race counting for the World Driver's Championship (i.e. since 1950)?
     

Wasn't it either Stewart or Fittipaldi?

Dave

    No - Fittipaldi was the youngest champion at the time he won it (and
    may still be), but he wasn't the youngest race winner.

De Angelis?

    No - there's a clue in the wording of the question (but I didn't mean
    to omit the "a").

	Could be an Indy 500 winner.

	-John

    Definitely much warmer......
    

    
    Is it A. J. Foyt?
    
    Wendy.

Before reading the last few guesses I thought of 'Count' von Trips...

AJ Foyt was not one of the Indy 500 winners from 1950-1960 - here is the
list:

Parsons
Willard
Ruttman
Vukovich (twice)
Sweikert
Flaherty
Hanks
Bryan
Ward
Rathman


Dave

	If it wasn't the Indy 500 (who knows how old those drivers
	were) it just might have been an Antipodean adventure such
	as the Tasman trophy, held at the end of the season and
	badly attended by the top teams. A very youthful Jack
	Brabham perhaps?.

	-John

    ...and it was Troy Ruttmann who won Indianapolis in 1952 when he was
    just over 22. Bruce McLaren was the youngest actual GP winner at just a
    few days older than Ruttman when he won the 1959 USA GP.

Hmmmm, I vaguely remember that the Indy 500 counted toward the WDC for a 
while. If my memory serves, Troy Ruttman was quite young when he won the
Indy 500. 22 perhaps? I think he also retired rather soon after winning
that race (wisely, given the dangers of racing back then). 

    You must have been answering while I was answering, so you're right...
    
    He carried on in Indy racing for a good 10 years, and I think his
    brother is still doing NASCAR.

Hi all,

Looking for an answer really....  which BRITISH driver has won Le Mans the 
most times ???   I think it is Derek Bell with 7 ??  Any offers on the correct 
answer as I carn't find it in any of my books.....

Regards

- MARK -

    
    Derek Bell has won Le Mans 5 times. Jacky Ickx has won on 6 occaisions.
    Results for your enjoyment. This year's race 14-15th June.

    Richard.
    


Year  Car                Drivers                           Distance  Speed
                                                            (miles)  (mph)
Circuit - 10.726 miles
1923  Chenard & Walcker  A.Lagache, R.Leonard (F)          1372.9    57.21
1924  Bentley 3 litre    J.Duff, F.Clement (GB)            1290.8    53.78
1925  La Lorraine        G.de Courcelles, A.Rossignol (F)  1388.1    57.84
1926  La Lorraine        R.Bloch, A.Rossignol (F)          1586.0    66.08
1927  Bentley 3 litre    D.Benjafield, S.Davis (GB)        1472.5    61.34
1928  Bentley 4.5        W.Barnato, B.Rubin (GB)           1658.6    69.11

Circuit - 10.153 miles
1929  Bentley 6 speed    W.Barnato, Sir H.Birkin (GB)      1767.1    73.63
1930  Bentley 6 speed    W.Barnato, G.Kidston (GB)         1821.0    75.88
1931  Alfa Romeo 8C2300  E.Howe, Sir H.Birkin (GB)         1875.1    78.13

Circuit - 8.475 miles
1932  Alfa Romeo 8C2300  R.Sommer, L.Chinetti (F,I)        1835.6    76.58
1933  Alfa Romeo 8C2300  R.Sommer, T.Nuvolari (F,I)        1953.6    81.40
1934  Alfa Romeo 8C2300  L.Chinetti, P.Etancelin (I,F)     1793.9    74.74
1935  Lagonda M45R       JS Hindmarsh, L.Fontes (GB,RA)    1868.3    77.85
1936  Race cancelled
1937  Bugatti 57G        JP Wimille, R.Benoist (F)         2043.0    85.13
1938  Delahaye 135M      E.Chaboud, J.Tremoulet (F)        1976.5    82.36
1939  Bugatti 57G        JP Wimille, P.Veyron (F)          2084.5    86.69
1940-48 Race cancelled
1949  Ferrari 166MM      L.Chinetti, Lord Selsdon (USA,GB) 1974.9    82.28
1950  Talbot-Lago        L.Rosier, JL Rosier (F)           2153.1    89.71
1951  Jaguar C-Type      P.Walker, P.Whitehead (GB)        2243.9    93.50
1952  Mercedes-B.300SL   H.Lang, F.Riess (D)               2320.1    96.67
1953  Jaguar C-Type      T.Rolt, D.Hamilton (GB)           2540.2   105.84
1954  Ferrari 375        F.Gonzalez, M.Trintignant (RA,F)  2523.5   105.15
1955  Jaguar D-Type      M.Hawthorn, I.Bueb (GB)           2569.6   107.07

Circuit - 8.364 miles
1956  Jaguar D-Type      R.Flockhart, N.Sanderson (GB)     2507.2   104.47
1957  Jaguar D-Type      R.Flockhart, I.Bueb (GB)          2732.2   113.85
1958  Ferrari 250TR58    O.Gendebien, P.Hill (B,USA)       2548.8   106.20
1959  Aston Martin DBR1  C.Shelby, R.Salvadori (USA,GB)    2701.7   112.57
1960  Ferrari 250TR59/60 O.Gendebien, P.Frere (B)          2620.6   109.19
1961  Ferrari 250TR61    O.Gendebien, P.Hill (B,USA)       2781.6   115.90
1962  Ferrari 250P       O.Gendebien, P.Hill (B,USA)       2765.9   115.24
1963  Ferrari 250P       L.Scarfiotti, L.Bandini (I)       2834.5   118.10
1964  Ferrari 275P       J.Guichet, N.Vaccarella (F,I)     2917.5   121.56
1965  Ferrari 250LM      J.Rindt, M.Gregory (A,USA)        2906.2   121.09
1966  Ford GT40 Mk2      C.Amon, B.McLaren (NZ)            3009.4   125.39
1967  Ford GT Mk4        D.Gurney, AJ Foyt (USA)           3251.5   135.48

Circuit - 8.369 miles
1968  Ford GT40          P.Rodriguez, L.Bianchi (Mex,B)    2766.9   115.29
1969  Ford GT40          J.Ickx, J.Oliver (B,GB)           3105.6   129.40
1970  Porsche 917        H.Herrmann, R.Attwood (D,GB)      2863.2   119.30
1971  Porsche 917        H.Marko, G.van Lennep (A,NL)      3315.2   138.13

Circuit - 8.475 miles
1972  Matra-Simca MS670  H.Pescarolo, G.Hill (F,GB)        2915.1   121.45
1973  Matra-Simca MS670B H.Pescarolo, G.Larrousse (F)      3016.1   125.67
1974  Matra-Simca MS670B H.Pescarolo, G.Larrousse (F)      2862.4   119.27
1975  Mirage-Ford M8     J.Ickx, D.Bell (B,GB)             2855.6   118.98
1976  Porsche 936        J.Ickx, G.van Lennep (B,NL)       2963.9   123.49
1977  Porsche 936        J.Ickx,J.Barth,H.Haywood(B,D,USA) 2902.8   120.95
1978  Renault Alpine     JP Jaussaud, D.Pironi (F)         3134.5   130.60

Circuit - 8.467 miles
1979  Porsche 935        K.Ludwig,B & D.Whittington(D,USA) 2590.9   108.10
1980  Rondeau Ford M379B JP Jaussaud, J.Rondeau (F)        2861.4   119.23
1981  Porsche 936-81     J.Ickx, D.Bell (B,GB)             2998.3   124.93
1982  Porsche 956-82     J.Ickx, D.Bell (B,GB)             3044.2   126.84
1983  Porsche 956-83     V.Schuppan, H.Haywood, A.Holbert
                                               (?,USA,USA) 3136.5   130.70
1984  Porsche 956B       K.Ludwig, H.Pescarolo (D,F)       3045.0   126.88
1985  Porsche 956B       K.Ludwig, P.Barilla, J.Winter
                                               (D,I,D)     3157.9   131.76


Circuit - 8.51 miles
1986  Porsche 962C       D.Bell, H.Stuck, A.Holbert
                                               (GB,D,USA)  3088.1   128.66

Circuit - 8.45 miles
1987  Porsche 962C       D.Bell, H.Stuck, A.Holbert
                                               (GB,D,USA)  2977.0   124.06
1988  Jaguar XJR-9LM     J.Dumfries, J.Lammers, A.Wallace
                                               (GB,NL,GB)  3313.2   137.72
1989  Sauber Mercedes C9 J.Mass, S.Dickens, M.Reuter
                                               (D,S,D)     3269.6   136.23

Circuit - 8.45 miles (with Mulsanne Chicanes)
1990  Jaguar XJR-12      M.Brundle, J.Nielsen, P.Cobb
                                               (GB,DK,USA) 3040.7   126.69
1991  Mazda 787B         J.Herbert, B.Gachot, V.Weidler
                                               (GB,B,D)    3058.9   127.45
1992  Peugeot 905        D.Warwick, Y.Dalmas, M.Blundell
                                               (GB,F,GB)   2992.0   124.66
1993  Peugeot 905B       G.Brabham, E.Helary, C.Bouchut
                                               (AUS,F,F)   3168.8   133.34
1994  Dauer Porsche962LM Y.Dalmas, H.Haywood, M.Baldi
                                               (F,USA,I)   2912.2   121.33
1995  McLaren F1 GTR     Y.Dalmas, JJ Lehto, M.Sekiya
                                               (F,SF,J)    2518.1   105.01
1996  TWR Porsche WSC    M Reuter D Jones A Wurz
                                               (D,USA,A)   2991.3   124.64

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the info.  At least I had the correct driver !!

Regards,

- MARK -

    Nothing to do with F1, but I will be making my annual pilgrimage to Le
    Mans this year. Anyone else going?
    
    Edward.

    Edward,
    
    I've plans going there, but never been there before. Can you go there
    and buy tickets there? How are the prices (entrance)? what are good
    places? (maybe 24 hrs is long enough to see for myself...;-) ).
    
    It looks like it's going to be an exciting race...
    
    cheers,
    
    Frits

    
    There are several Le Mans notes in CARS_UK which are worth reading for
    advice.
    
    Admission prices this year are FFr320 for the week including all
    qualifying and race days. This is a general entry ticket that lets you
    into every public area. On top of this you can buy tickets for various
    stands (Tribunes) that vary from about FFr200 to FFr470. There are also
    a small number of select enclosures which have a small reserved area
    from which the race can be seen. One of these is called "Welcome" and
    costs an additional FFr120(?) over the general entry ticket. Plus
    points are some comfortable chairs and some reasonably priced catering.
    
    Tickets for stands (Tribunes) will probably sell out before the race
    and some stands aren't that good - so check before you buy.
    
    
    I will be going again this year and looking forward to a great race.
    I will be in Le Mans for the scrutineering which starts on Monday
    at the Pl. Jacobins in the centre of Le Mans. Qualifying starts on
    Wednesday evening (19:00 - 21:00 daylight)  and then (22:00 - 00:00
    night). Same again on Thursday. Friday is a free day. Saturday starts
    around 10:00 with parades etc and the race will probably start at
    16:00. 
    
    For the first time this year I will be in the ACO stand in the pits 
    straight and I'm looking forward to that. You have to a member of the
    ACO to buy tickets for this stand so I joined. I hope it's worth it.
    
    Apart from the pits straight/Dunlop Bridge/Maison Blanche area I'd 
    recommend visiting the Arnage/Indianapolis complex and Tetre Rouge 
    during the 24hrs. The fair and village are a good bet when darkness 
    falls for a few beers and general banter. 
    
    Enjoy it!
    
    Richard

    Back to trivia, and continuing the Le Mans theme.....
    
    What made its first appearance thirty years ago at the 1967 Le Mans
    race, won by Dan Gurney and A.J.Foyt in the Ford GT40? 

	A wing?

	-John

    
    1967? Was this the year of the gas turbine propelled car? (BRM?)
    
    Richard.

    
    The dreaded pace car ?
    
    G.

    Clue: Dan Gurney was personally responsible for it
    

re.668:

>    Clue: Dan Gurney was personally responsible for it
 
Must be the 'Gurney' flap. 
  
Dave.

    Methinks it was a Ford MkIV rather than a GT40.
    
    Edward.

    Further clue: It was something he did rather than anything else...
    
    (and you're probably right about the car)

Did he causually stroll to the car at the start instead of running across
as the tradition?

Dave

    I think that it was Jacky Ickx who strolled to his car two years later
    in protest at the old start procedure. He went on to win.
    
    Edward

	Did I detect a clue about spraying Champagne about?

	-John

    YES! This was what is claimed to be the first occasion when someone sprayed
    the champagne rather than just drinking it. 

    Much as I admire Dan Gurney - surely the greatest American racer ever -
    this was not one of his most memorable achievements. If all the
    champagne that has been spilt over podiums since 1967 were now safely
    stored in my cellar, then I would be one happy man.
    
    BTW, is it true that someone in the States once ran a Dan Gurney for
    President campaign?
    
    Edward.

RE: .676

Ah, but in F1 they spray Moet and in CART Moet et Chandon's American 
counterpart, Domaine Chandon.  This is doing a service to wine drinkers.  Now, 
if they were spraying Krug or Iron Horse, that would be a real tragedy....

--PSW

    RE: .667
    
    Well said! Exactly!
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    A related piece of trivia.....
    
    Which winning team at one time specifically didn't touch the bubbly
    when they won, and why?

Something to do with Fittipaldi?

Williams, when they were sponsored by SAUDIA the Saudi Arabian airline, the
Saudi's being Muslims.

    re : .680
    
    Wasn't that at the 1993 Indy 500 when Emerson nicked the win from Mansell
    at the restart with 8 or so laps to go and then drank orange juice
    at the presentation rather than milk ?
    
    Giles.               

    Re -.2
    
    Yes - that was what I was thinking of - they also drank orange juice.

I remember when Mansell was in Indy and it was on UK TV and the commentator 
said that Emo has his own orange plantation and that is why he swigs the 
orange stuff for the free advertising....  something like that anyway...

-MARK-

RE: .684

Yes, it was orange juice from Emmo's own plantation in Brazil.

--PSW