Conference terri::cars_uk

>>Do grooved discs improve braking?


the grooves improve cooling therefore they should improve braking...

Derek

There was an article in CCC or somewhere a short while back, about the TAR-OX 
discs and pads. I'll see if I can find it this evening. Basically they said that
they were a significant improvement, but the pads don't last very long. All 
right for circuits, but not recommended for street use.

Dick

    Are disk judder problems more likely now that non-asbestos pad
    material is the norm ?
    
    The pad manufacturers seem to say that there is no significant
    difference in this respect.
    
    What have you found ?
    
    
    Alan. 

    re 2 back (I think).
    
    Do the grooves assist cooling? or are they more to do with getting rid
    of dust and water? They seem to be quite common on bikes and the disks
    are definately exposed to the elements. 
    
    Just a thought.......

    Re .4
    
�    Are disk judder problems more likely now that non-asbestos pad
�    material is the norm ?
    
    Don't know about disk juddering, but I remember reading a letter in
    a car mag which complained about the short life of non-asbestos pads,
    on a Toyota.  The dealer had replied that 'this is the price you pay'.
    I suppose there is no answer to that - if you want to do away with
    asbestos, you have to accept an alternative that *may not* be as good.
    
    J.R.

	I have a question about brake disks, and I guess pads.  The Marlin's
	front left disk is slightly warped (ching, ching, ching at low speeds
	but not a safety problem) and it has of late suffered from screeching
	at the back, despite the pads being well thick enough.

	So, should I just replace the disks with standard Ford ones (again, 
	this set was new 3 years ago).   Or is there something better.

	Also, the pads (all round) are Fords, also 3 years old.  What should
	I replace them with?

	Dave

	PS The Marlin is cortina based, so anything that applies to them also
	applies to the Marlin.

    Why not have the recalcitrant disc(s) retrued/skimmed to bring them
    back to rotational truth? Shouldn't cost an arm and a leg.
    
    If the pads that Ford supplied for the brakes will stop a Cortina
    (which I assume is heavier than the Marlin) what's wrong with more of
    the same? I.e replacements from the local Ford chappie of=r the Ferodo
    equivalent from Halfords etc......

    
    Don't change the discs - get them skimmed. Ford don't de-stress
    their discs, and so they do tend to warp (ask any enthusiastic
    Cosworth driver). Having warped, skimming them will solve the
    problem.
    
    Bill.

	Well, I had thought of Capri twin-vented disks 'cos they fit, mind
	you I don't have problems stopping, the Marlin is much lighter than
	the 'tina.  Maybe I'll try skimming, anybody got an idea where to go
	to get this done?

	Are Ferodo's the same as Fords?  I don't mind a softer pad, mine seem
	to last for ages anyhow (I guess the lightness of the car means less
	wear?)

	Dave

    
    
    My Triumph Dolomite seems to chuck out loads of brake dust from the
    front discs (I have to clean the wheels every 3 days with special alloy
    wheel cleaner, it's that bad). A friend has said that if I fit asbestos
    brake pads it should cure it.
    
    
    Is there any truth in his words???
    
    
    		Graham.            
    

I would think the only thing putting asbestos brake pads in would do is cover
the wheels with asbestos dust.  Then you should take extra care when cleaning
them since it can be nasty with long term exposure.

Dave

    RE: .11
    
    I had exactly the same problem with thr Frogeye recently. After a while
    they also started to squeal unmercifully. On the advice of a mate I
    changed from the factory-fitted Ferodo pads, and replaced them with
    Mintex. The problem went away.
    
    Laurie.

Dave,

If you do decide to get new disks, third-party ones are a lot cheaper than
genuine Ford ones, and seem to be just as good...

Camberley Auto Factors (in Basingstoke, Farnborough and Staines, but not in
Camberley for some reason) have the widest range and best prices for that sort
of thing, in my experience, anyway...

Scott

    Re .11  Dolomite Brake Dust
    
    If you use your brakes, they will wear out !
    This creates the dust, which naturally ends up on your wheels...
    
    If you want to avoid getting your wheels dirty, you
    could fit some guards on the inside of your wheels.
    These are available under the name 'turbo-lites' I think
    (although they have nothing to do with turbos, or lights - maybe
    I have got the name wrong).
    
    Personally, I wouldn't touch them - as although they will do their
    job quite effectively, they MUST prevent your brakes from cooling
    down properly.  Of course, if you don't use your brakes heavily,
    *repeatedly*, then that would not matter.
    
    J.R.

Derek says you need to widen the calipers with an expansion kit in order to fit
ventilated discs.

Dave says Capri ventilated discs fit in standard cortina calipers.

Who's telling the truth please?

Scott

	Yes, I'd heard about the widening kit, but reconditioning some
	Capri callipers would be an alternative.  If I'm going to change my
	disks then I could just as easily change my calipers whilst I'm at
	it...

	Dave

    There a a pair of non-ventilated discs and calipers and ditto
    ventilated sitting down the side of my garage if anybody wants 
    to make a visual check. The calipers are all double piston types with
    what would appear to be "internal" pipework (i.e. only one pipe
    externally). How do we feel about splitting an internally plumbed
    caliper? I always thought that that was a no-no because of the
    difficulty of lining them up properly again. Or is that an old wive's
    tale that needs putting to bed?
    
    The non-vented discs and calipers are for sale if anybody is interested
    as are some other bits of Granada front cradle. As soon as I've decided
    wheter to keep the existing calipers and disks, I could be persuaded to
    sell the vented ones too. 

    	re. .4.
    
    	I have an Orion with mechanical ABS., that is suffering from brake
    juddering. It is most noticable when the brakes have warmed up. For
    those of you that remember cycling, its the same feeling as trying to stop
    a bike with wet wheel rims.
    
    	The brakes also feel as though they are about to fade. I know the
    servo is working as I can start the car with my foot on the brake and
    feel the pedal move down further without any extra effort. I also know what
    the ABS feels like as next doors cat can testify. I have tried to
    bringing the car to a stop by applying the handbrake gently to see if its
    the rear drums, not conclusive.
    
    	I asked the well know Ford Garage in B'stoke to check this out
    during the 1st free "service". Having had the car delivered back, there
    was no comment on the worksheet as to my concerns. I rang and was told,
    after finally convincing them that the car had been with them all day,
    that;
    	"the braking characteristics are normal".
    
    	"Probably right"!!!!!!!
    
    Anyway, I have tried changing tyre pressures and trying to ignore the
    rattling of the carpark change whenever I brake, but to no avail. I had
    an Escort as a hire car last week and this had very positive brakes and
    was smooth when stopping in comparison. I have asked the Garage to look
    again.
    
    	Has anyone any bright ideas if the garage turn up a BIG ?. Apart
    from selling thankyou!.
    
    Dave.                   

If the garage are uncooperative, ring Ford UK Customer Service and get them to
sort it out...

Scott

  Re .22

>>>    	"the braking characteristics are normal".
>>>    	"Probably right"!!!!!!!
    
   What absolute, unadulterated rubbish - I had a similar problem on my
   (ahem) sierra when I got it back from its service last year. Keep badgering
   them and 'threaten' them with the UK Customer Service people.

   What I did (to Gowrings in Newbury) was turn up at 8:00am gave them the keys
   and insisted that they fix it - with a replacement car in the process.

   If that doesn't work then *do* go to the Customer Service folks and
   give 'em something to think about - unmerchantable quality and all that -
   and give them the names of everyone involved. It's not good for a
   'franchised' Ford dealer to be seen to be behaving in this way - if you bring
   an area of concern to the service engineers then they are *obliged* to
   give you an answer on the service sheet they return (they have a section
   at the bottom of the bill which they fill in).

   Bet of luck
   Andy

    Thanks for the advice!. I have in the past actually taken out
    litigation on the garage. You would think that they might THINK CUSTOMER
    by now!.
    
    Perhapse after buying several cars from them I might have learnt my
    lesson. But I could bore you with a tale about all the Big Garage Names
    in B'stoke. In my opinion After Sales equates to "      ".
    
    I shall keep on until I'm satisfied but it does take a lot of time and
    energy to have to keep doing this.
    
    I'll let you know the outcome.
    
    Dave.

  Good for you!!!

  It took me 4 months to get something approaching decent service from Gowrings
  (if you haven't already guessed I was pretty miffed) and I simply *had*
  to get them to notice me - so much so when I last went there I was on
  first name terms with the service manager :-)

  Best of luck,
  Andy

    	WELL!!!!!!. Returned to me with 20 miles on the clock, Ash in the
    ash tray, I don't smoke, well only when talking to garages and a
    report;
    
    		"BLEED BRAKE"
    		"No hot Wheel judder"
    
    	The mind boggles!. Well I will just have to see won't I?.
    
    Dave.
    

    
    	NO.
    

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
================================================================================
Note 1324.0                     Brakes and Disks                       4 replies
SUBURB::LAWSONM1                                     20 lines   2-JAN-1991 11:43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I have trouble in putting on new disks onto a Ford Fiesta 85
    
    1. Do you have to put new pads on when you put on new disks, the old
    ones are relatively new ?
    
    2. I have taken of the calliper on the front disks and am endeavoring
    to take of the disks, however I have great difficulty in taking of said
    item as:
    
    A. The old Disks seem to be very corroded around the rim edges
    
    B. There is still part of the calliper mount left falling slightly over
    the disk itself, my Hanes manual says nothing about taking this off. I
    have already undone with much difficulty the retaining screw however
    even with a bang from a hammer the disk does not want to come off.
    
    Has anyone done this before I have never really had this sort of
    problem before ?
    
    Regards Mike.

================================================================================
Note 1324.1                     Brakes and Disks                          1 of 4
NEWOA::VANDIK::HENNEMAN "Reality? - not today thanks" 4 lines   2-JAN-1991 12:12
                               -< Use new pads >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not familiar with the caliper/disc mountings on a Fiesta, but if you're
fitting new discs then you should *always* fit new pads.

Dick

================================================================================
Note 1324.2                     Brakes and Disks                          2 of 4
IOSG::MARSHALL "Waterloo Sunset"                      7 lines   2-JAN-1991 12:30
                       -< If only I was a moderator... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Note 1284 might be a better place for this...
    
    And yes, you should fit new pads; the old ones will have worn to the
    profile of the old disc, and so won't work well with the new,
    presumably flat, disc...
    
    Scott

================================================================================
Note 1324.3                     Brakes and Disks                          3 of 4
VANTEN::MITCHELLD "............<42`-`o>"              8 lines   2-JAN-1991 14:06
                 -< Yes Mr Mod it should all go in note 1284 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A second vote for new pads

Releasing oil (Plus gas) and grunt is often needed to remove disks
look up the torque for the nuts as a guide to how much grunt is needed.
 I would guess 75ft Lbs or more, so it will take some shifting

We will all a get a reminder about dir/tit="subject"
however in 1284 disk is spelled disc. 

================================================================================
Note 1324.4                     Brakes and Disks                          4 of 4
SUBURB::LAWSONM1                                      9 lines   2-JAN-1991 16:14
                            -< 1284 Where are you >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Alright I am sorry 1284 it should be. I have taken
    note of what you have said about torque However you have me confused, I
    have the wheel nuts and the retaining screw of, surely there are no more
    to undo ? It appears that the nut holding the wheel bearing itself
    needs shifting am I right in thinking this ?  If this is not the case
    then I think it may be a case of (Gazzer Aftershave) and ignorance with
    a hammer, ever fearful of going just that bit to far ------> AAAAAGGH.
    
    Mike.

    I thought all Ford disks bolted onto the hub from behind.  You need to
    remove the hub, clamp it in a vice then attack the bolts with a large
    torque wrench!
    
    (When taking the hub off, try and avoid dropping the bearings in the
    muck on the ground!)
    
    Scott

re: 

>>    (When taking the hub off, try and avoid dropping the bearings in the
>>    muck on the ground!)
    
>>    Scott


	You too !!! Thought it was just me :-) :-)

    AGHH but does my Hanes Manual say anything about this NO !
    

Why not use the Haynes manual to catch the bearings in when they fall out?

Dave

    Sorry Already Thought of that. Am now thinking of burning it to keep my
    hands warm.
    
    Regards,
    
    Mike.

    If you seriously no longer want the Haynes manual, can I have it to add
    to my collection?  That goes for anyone else who has manuals they no
    longer need...
    
    Scott

    The discs on the Mk 1 Granada are bolted on from the front. Bite the
    bullet and take the caliper off the stub axle assembly, then take the
    rotor/hub off the stub axle (collecting all parts as they fall off etc)
    and retire to dry lit garage to continue to explore the problem. You
    may just find that the rotor/hub is in one piece........

 >>    may just find that the rotor/hub is in one piece........
    
    Been reading too many US or Japanese manuals recently?
    
    Mark :^) 

    Just got a new Escort MkII :-)
    
    One problem, the brakes on it behave WIERDLY! When starting off in the
    morning, they pull quite badly to the right and squeal a lot. A few
    hundred yards and a few brake-pedal depressions later, the
    pulling/squealing goes away. Sometimes it pulls to the RIGHT quite
    badly but not often. 
    
    Also, after about 100 miles of motorway driving in the wet, it pulled
    again for no apparent reason and then went away. 
    
    The car has just been MOT'd and the fault did not show up in the test
    (obviously due to the intermittent nature of the problem). So the pads
    must be OK. There isn't an airlock in the brake system either.
    
    BTW: Drums all round.
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Dale.

    Sounds like the pads may be binding, and not coming on/releasing
    properly.
    
    First thing get all the pads out, clean them, the slots they sit in,
    tho rods that locate them the shims that stop them squeeling, etc. A
    little copaslip added judiciously where they could potentially bing can
    help.
    
    Richard

    Problem seems to be going away now actually, with more and more use
    (good reason to believe the car had been standing for some time before
    I bought it).
    
    Thanks for the advice and way -1.
    
    Dale.

    	Does anyone know of a 2-pot or a 4-pot brake caliper that will
    mount on a Golf GTI A1 or A2 chassis front yoke. I live in the U.S.
    and have found that no one here has any idea of such a thing. I did see
    in a British VW magazine that one of the VW tuners had come up with a  
    4-pot caliper conversion for the GTI. I did not get the magazine and 
    now wish I had. I am planning this conversion for my GTI racecar.
    Any help would be great.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steven 
     

I think Tim Stiles Racing have one.

I'll look up the address and number over the weekend.  

What else have you done?
Now braided hoses, four pot calipers, racing pads, a rear disk conversion 
and cross drilled slotted, vented front disks would make an interesting 
improvement to a Mark 1 Golf GTI.    8-)

Rob.

    What I am planning to do is run the cabriolet rear beam axle with the
    rear disk conversion. The cabriolet rear beam is a heavier duty unit
    than the Golf unit. On the front I want to run cross drilled slotted,
    vented front disks with 2-pot or 4-pot calipers that are big enough to
    fill a 15in. wheel. All four corners will have stainless steel braided
    hoses. I will also use carbon racing pads.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steven
    
    

Impressive.

Here's some contact details for UK VW Tuners, in order of the likelyhood of 
them stocking a 4-pot conversion since I can't remember which one actually 
had the advert.

Tim Stiles Racing
	Unit 5-6, Transform Estate, Wylds Road, Bridgwater, TA6 $DH
	Tel: 0278 453036
	Fax: 0278 444525

Autobahn
	Units 16-17 Morton Street Industrial Estate, Failsworth, 
			Manchester M35 0BN
	Tel: 061 683 4707

Autocavan Head Office
	103 Lower Weybourne Lane, Badshot Lea, Farnham, Surrey
	Tel: 0252 333891
	Fax: 0252 343363

C+R Enterprises
	Units C2-C4 Lake Street, Radford, Nottingham, NG74BT
	Tel: 0602 785740
	Fax: 0602 244903


Rob.

Just a little question.

I've just had the front brake pads replaced on a Peugeot 405. 150 miles later 
they are still squealing, I'm getting fed up with everyone looking up when I 
brake. The garage says I should expect them to be noisy "for a while".

Now, many years ago, when I used to do this sort of job myself I can't 
ever remember the brakes squealing after pad replacement. I do vaguely 
remember having to put in something called something like "anti-squeal 
shims". Has the garage forgotten something or is this just the price of 
progress?

Dick

re.51:

It's reasonable to expect the pads to "bed in" and therefore any minor
squealling to go. If it persists they will have to use shims or copper paste
unless some new fangled solution has been invented since I were young and 
mechanically minded.

Dave.

    I recently had the pads changed on my 405 diesel estate (@36K). Not a
    squeal in sight (or should that be sound?).
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

re: 51 & 52

Some cars have the anti-squeal clips so they might have forgotten
to install them.  If the car doesn't have them, you can buy an
anti-squeal paste that you put on the BACKS of the pads.

Dave

    It is alleged by some that modern (asbestos free) friction materials
    are more prone to squeal. Especially in cars which were originally
    intended to have asbestos containing pads and for which only asbestos
    free pads are now available.
    
    It may be worth checking that the garage used real PSA authorised parts
    and not alternative items.
    
    John O'Connor

Thanks for the replies. I went back to the garage and complained and they put 
some goo on them and they're quiet now. The also advised that I should brake 
hard rather than lightly to avoid getting the noise, but I politely told them 
what I thought of that advice.

To be fair, it does seem to be the price of progress. The alternative 
material to asbestos does apparently glaze more readily, giving the problem.

Dick

I was reading a book about the Mk2 Consul/Zodiac/Zephyr this morning and noticed
that it described the 4 wheel drum brake setup as having 2 leading shoes on the
front drums, but 1 leading and 1 trailing shoes on the rear.  What do they mean
by 'leading' and 'trailing' shoes?  I thought that each two shoe drum would have
1 leading and 1 trailing - how can both be leading?

Dave
ps - my parents have a '59 Zephyr convertible, US export model.

    Dave,
    
    Imagine a wheel rotating in a clockwise direction with brake shoes
    mounted vertically left and right as you look at it and a single brake
    cylinder, at the top of this arrangement. 
    
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  The RH shoe is pushed onto the
    |					|  drum with the 'leading edge'
    |	{ <<<-----*********----->>> }   |  making first contact with the
    |   {                           }   |  rotating drum. The LH shoe is   
    |   {                           }   |  pushed onto the rotating drum
    |   {                           }   |  with the 'trailing' edge making
    |   {                           }   |  contact with the drum.
    |   {                           }   |
    |   {                           }   |
    |					|
    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
    
    So what you may ask?
    
    Under this arrangement the leading edge tends to get dragged onto the
    drum making braking easier/more efficient. The trailing edge tends to
    get pushed away from the drum making braking harder/less efficient.
    
    By adding a second cylinder at the bottom of the wheel and having the
    lower cylinder drive the LH shoe and the upper cylinder drive the RH
    shoe you get 'twin leading edge' and hence better braking.
    
    There are then two problems with this. The first is that it costs more
    to produce and the second is that braking becomes much less efficient
    for reversing or parking on a hill facing backwards (Zantias were not
    the first!)
    
    As rear brakes don't need to be as effecient as front brakes the
    solution was to have twin leading edge on the front and
    leading/trailing edge on the rear.
    
    Of course the move from square to round wheels also helped :-}
    
    Peter
    

Peter,

	Thanks for the explanation - it makes sense now.

Dave