Conference terri::cars_uk

    Lets get some activity going here.  Which is the best looking Ferrari,
    the ugliest (but still better looking than anything else), the fastest
    appreciating.  What do you think of the new 348 and the new Mondial.
    Does anyone subscribe to Cavallino or Ferrari world, (both are
    magazines dedicated to Ferrari).  As for being a Dec employee and
    not owning Ferrari's.  I work out of Kanata, Canada and I own 9
    Ferrari and the collection is still growing (unfortunately the biggest
    example is F1 312 B2 at just over 16 inches long).  
    
    Come on people lets talk Ferrari.
    
    Regards,
    JP Lavigne 	@KAO		Kanata, Ontario, Canada

    I presently have a mid seventies 246 GTS, an 86 GTO, an 87 TESTAROSSA
    Convertible, an 88 F40, a mid seventies 312T3, a 1950 F2, a 56 TESTA
    ROSSA, and an 86 TESTAROSSA,  and the last one which is still
    unfinished an early seventies 312B2.  I am looking for early F1/F2
    cars, or 250 SWB or 275 Spyders.
    Regards,
    JP

    Well... make that 10 Ferrari's.  I just picked up a 1965 330 P4.
    I think next to a 250 California spyder this is the nicest 
    looking Ferrari ever built.
    
    JP

    Ferrari just announced that the 1st batch of 200 F40's, US specs, is
    currently being built. Deliveries have started in the USA. 

    And from all the latest reports... The Ferrari prices are coming
    down.  Except of course for the really special Cars...F40's,
    250 GTO's, 250 LMB's, SWB's, 330 GTC's and just about everything
    else made before the early 50's.  But now the 330 GTE 2+2's and
    the 308GT4 and GTB's, GTSi's are almost within reach.  If only they
    stay at this level for another decade ;-) I'll be able to get one.
    
    Oh well there is still the lottery ;-)
    
    regards,
    JP
    P.S. I wonder if there will be any F40's in Canada before the year
    end.  What's the going price anyways  (I think Suggested list is
    around $400K).

    Hey, I'd still be willing to get a Fiat Dino or even a Lancia Stratos
    if *necessary*...:-)
    
    I mean, about the only thing Ferrari cared about in the early days was
    the engine anyway....
    
    Dave

    246 Dino and Stratos are pretty stable.
    
    The 308/328 series are back to normal. Also there are lots of these
    cars available in the shops : I dont have these exact figures but
    there were approx 20000 examples built (not really a rare car).
                                                                  
    The race cars are very very expensive (and there are very few on
    the market). 
               
    The road examples are coming down after the boom. A 250 (any type) 
    is still a very good buy. A 250 GT/L Lusso or a 250 GTE can be found
    at much lower prices than say a year ago.

What about the Fiat Dinos, the 124 coupes with the V6?  We didn't get too many
over here, but a few years ago they were still under $7k or so.

Dave

    The Fiat Dino convertibles are supposedly selling in the 25-35K
    range (and they are quite good looking), and another one I just
    started hearing about is the ASA Ferrari's.  They are like a 2/3
    scale 250SWB, with a tiny engine made by Ferrari.  They are rare
    and only about 20-25K but they also made some competition ASA's
    that are really lightweight with lots of HP. :-)
    
    Anyone seen any of these on the american roads.  Last one I saw
    was an Advert. for one of the competition cars and he was asking
    125K for it. :-(
    
    regards
    JP
    BTW I have just added another 3 to my collection, and with my birthday
    and Xmas on its way I hope to be building more into the new year.
    
    P.S. Dave how's the new house coming along and have you won any
    rallies lately.

The house is fine, still adding little bits to the garage (like sound insulation
around the air compressor).  Rallying's kind of down on the list of hobbies
at the moment, something to do with $.  I'm concentrating on my cheaper
hobbies, SWL and model building.  The next model to get built is the 1/12th
Ferrari 312B, complimenting my 312T2, 312T4 and 126CK.

Just to keep this reply 'kosher', I have a choice of building the Ferrari for
Andretti, Ickx or Regga (or was that Reutemann?).  I'm leaning towards
Ickx, any other comments?

Dave

Re: -.1

I always associate the 312B with Ickx. I reckon that it was the prettiest
Ferrari ever - should be fun to model.

    Finding an ASA 1000 is certainly a difficult job. Beautiful cars
    though. I'll lookup my books to check how many were made (very few).

	Have just read a little book on the original Dinos ie 206 and
	246. Some points that might be of interest (or somewhat 
	disconcerting) -

	Originally they were called Dinos and didn't have any Ferrari
	badges. The advertisements said "Nearly a Ferrari". This
	changed later when Ferrari badges were added.

	One reason for building the car was to homologate the 2 Litre
	engine for the F2 rules. The other was to make money.

	The 206 (2 Litre) had all alloy body and engine. 150 were made
	and none were RH drive.

	The 246 however had a cast iron blocked engine (!) and steel body
	panels.

	The engines were made by Fiat and had Fiat written all over them
	apart from a Dino cam cover.

	The bodies were made by a subcontractor too, being hand beaten
	from steel sheet. They weren't very consistent, and spare panels
	would only fit where they touched.

	The interior was very sparse and featured non-reclining, 
	uncomfortable plastic covered seats.

	It was deafeningly noisy with 4 chain driven camshafts whizzing
	around behind your head.

	2nd gear didn't always work when new and virtually never with time.

	The expensive camshafts wore out pretty quickly.

	When you realised that half of the spark plugs were only accessible
	by removing a panel from inside the car you also realsised that the
	other maintenance wasn't going to be easy. A lot was required too.

	Because the bodywork was hand beaten it was of thin steel, and
	it rusted with enormous enthusiasm in no time at all.
	
	The roof of the convertible leaked too, ruining the interior trim.

	Oh and a lot more too!

	Mind you it looked (Pininfarina) great and sold quite well (2000
	in the UK)

	-John

Ickx it will be.  I finished most of the painting over the weekend and then
started putting some of the parts together.  The first item in the instructions
is to build the two 'wooden' saw horses to display the finished engine.  Other
Tamiya kits come with car stands or spare parts, the Ferrari comes with two
saw horses.... Seems to fit.

Since I had my paint out I finally decided to paint my helmet.  I've been
thinking of doing some design on it for a years, but never came up with one.
Well, it will be red and blue and basically a copy of one of my favorite F1
drivers -- Gilles Villeneuve.  The red parts are drying for a day or so and then
I'll do the blue.

I hope there's nothing 'wrong' with copying another driver's helmet design.

Dave

    re .46
    
    Perfectly true ! Actually the Fiat Dinos came out BEFORE the Ferrari
    version. The 2ltr alloy engine was built at Ferrari, Maranello whereas
    the 2.4ltr version (cast iron) was built at Fiat in Torino.
                                                           
    Funny enough the real Ferrari (206 Dino) Dino, very rare (150 made),
    all alloy, very handling, does not rust, ... etc ... is reported
    to sell at lower prices than the 246 (iron, many made).
    
    The Lancia Strato's used the 2.4ltr Fiat block, with Ferrari parts
    and Lancia designed fuel injection and ignition system.
    
    Things changed slightly with the 308 (GT4). It came out as a Dino,
    later to reappear as a proper Ferrari, with a Ferrari engine (3ltr,
    V8).
                                                           

	And a few more for aspiring 246 owners (forgot them first time)

	The ventilation is dire and it gets very hot inside.

	Visibility is poor too, can't see out of the rear much and
	can't see the nose for manouvring.

	And the headlamps are dim too (double lenses).

	Ah but it still looks good!.

	Prices.

	If you were a visitor from the planet Zorro and used the Sunday
	Times as your measure of the way things were you'd come to some 
	strange conclusions. Firstly you'd assume that the Ferrari was a 
	very common make of car there being so many for sale. Furthermore
	you would be able to estimate the British mile as being 
	approximately the distance between London and Edinburgh based on
	reported usage. You'd also think cars cost an awful lot and got
	more expensive as they got older.

	Actually Ferrari prices have dropped a lot lately and continue to
	do so, the bottom has yet to be reached though methinks.

	-John

    Actually a real sleeper of a Ferrari is the 250 GTE 2+2 and the
    330 GTC (I think).   Both these cars have seating for 4 (2 adults
    and 2 kids) are relatively easy to drive, offer a fair bit of
    excitement, and if you can get them in a midnight blue color, they
    are absolutely beautifull to look at.  Prices are supposed to range
    in the 45 to 75 K range depending on the shape they are in.  But
    again any Ferrari would be good enoegh for me.
    
    Dave good luck with the 312 B.
    
    Regards,
    

    Meanwhile, back to the original note (43.0).
    YES, there is (was) a Digital employee who owns (owned) one. The guy,
    if my memory serves me well, is (was) Tony Milton, then a field service
    engineer out of Enterprise House, London. Said vehicle is (was) a 78-79
    Dino (i think). I only actually saw it once, in the CSC car park in 
    Basingstoke. I heard that his company car at the time was a 2CV,
    costing him bugger all, & allowing him to spend most of his dosh on his
    "Real" motor !!! It was midnight blue, with cream leather insides, &...
    I WANTED IT !!! Anyone got an update, i a'int never spoke to the guy.
    
    The only way i'm gonna get one working for dig, is to steal one, &
    belive me, i've been tempted !!!
                                   Alan.               

    Unless things have changed I think thats correct. Unless Tony has
    changed the 2cv for something else I've passed him beatling along the
    M3 back to London so that is definatly true.
    
    Garry

    
    Probably a 308 GTB/S if it is 1978/9, the Dino was out of production
    by then (or maybe a GT4?).
    
    Mark

It was a Dino 308gt4 according to the boot badge. In 1978 (mine was april '78)
Dinos were given the Ferrari badge and given some decent wheels (cos it wasn't 
selling so good). It was blue but it was stolen in may '89 and after 7 months of
hassle with the insurance I got enough out of them to buy another 308gt4.

My "new" 308 is a december '78 model and is a horrible brown/grey colour so I'm 
saving up to get the colour changed to midnight blue (my favorite colour for 4
seater Ferraris), but as this will uncover all sorts of bodywork problems i'll 
need to save up for a long time yet!

Yes my other car is a 2CV and in some respects I prefer this to my real car (50
mpg and london traffic being just two reasons) but there was another reason for 
this car other than cheapness - the gear layout is the same (upto 4th anyway)- I
was sick of trying to pull away in second in escorts and cavaliers after driving 
the "beast".

Tony.

    re .54;
    
    I've never driven a Ferrari, but I reckon my years of driving 2CV's
    will stand me in good stead as far as the gears are concerned.
    
    As a friend of mine one said: "The 2CV has a five speed sports 
    gearbox; they just don't bother fitting fifth."
    
    Some BMW's are the same; except they have fifth fitted!
    
    Peter.
    
    P.S. did you ever use the Ferrari while visiting customers? What was
    their reaction?

    Tony,
        Good to hear your still around !!! Must have been a bit of a shock
    hearing 'bout / reading my note. Reason is, it has always been a "claim
    to fame" of mine, when talk of your Ferrari was going on, that i had 
    actually seen the beast in the CSC car park. Truth is, i only found out
    it was yours during a drunken binge with Franczak in a Basingstoke
    boozer !!!
    Anyway, wouldst that i could afford one, what would a mere mortal like
    myself (without the aid of an insurance payout) expect to pay for a
    comparable model. I recently saw a '79 308GTS (270bhp carb) going for a
    measley 45k !!! Is this realistic ???
                                        Alan.
    
    

    Well my hopes are not dashed afterall....there is/are a Digital
    employee(s) who drives a Ferrari (I know my turn will come).  In
    respect to the prices....I was leafing through the Dupont Registry
    when lo and behold... a red 1975 308GT4 in sound mechanical condition
    (which probably means the inside needs a little TLC) for only 
    39,500.00 USD.  As well as all sorts of Modial Cabriolets for 55K-
    75K.                                                              
    
    Maybe I could get a second mortgage and sell the kids.....;-)
    
    Oh if only.....
    
    Well at least the prices are more reasonable than last years..
    
    
    
     

I wouldn't touch a pre '78 gt4 - they don't have a ferrari badge, they have twin
mechanical distributers (difficult to keep set up) and skinny tyres. Also the
only red ones of this tipo I've seen don't seem right - darker colours seem 
better suited.

Be careful of the mondial - the original 3 litre goes like a dead dog and only 
got marginally better with the 32 valve engine. These models are currently the 
cheapest in UK - 25-40k pounds. The 3.2 litre is probably the lowest powered 
mondial to consider but then you have to pay for them!

Tony.

    Hi Dave! Thought You might like to know that I once knew a guy who used
    to know a girl who had a pen-pal who used to own a VW Golf D (54 HP)
    and a GTI sticker on the back I think this is almost as good as a real
    Ferrari. Nontheless I used to know one who owned a '82 Mitsubishi
    Lancer Turbo (170 HP) with no stickers onthe back but a
    glass-'rain'-roof this car was at least almost as expansive to maintain
    as a real Ferrari.

Alan,

This sounds like a "used car" >60k miles - probably keep its value if you drive
less than 3k miles a year - the insurance will cost a fortune if you do more
than that! Remember the service interval is 3k miles too!

I thought the '79 GTS had the same engine as my gt4 - so that should be only 
255bhp.

Tony

    re 308GT4
    
    This car is probably one of (if not THE) the most enjoyable Ferraris
    to drive. Very good balance and handling, excellent brakes, engine (of
    course!) ... My first test drive of the 308GT4 was on wet roads
    and I found the car truly excellent (no comparison with say a 944
    Turbo or BMW).
    
    The Ferrari which has impressed me (besides the above) is the
    Testarossa. Even if the basic design is totally wrong (engine on
    top of the gearbox, final drive) they have got the handling right.
    And we're talking of 140+ mph in motorway curves. Nothing to do
    with the terrible BB (365/512) ... 

	However the GT4 is a very non-descript looking thing, which is
	why they're the cheapest model to buy.

	-John

The Mondial 8 is the cheapest these days - but who would want one? ;-)

Tony.

    Just to clarify some points.
    #1 The 308 GT4 with Dino badges is the least expensive used Ferrari
    followed closely by the Ferrari badged 308 GT4.  After that it would
    be any number of older model Mondials.
    
    #2 The new Mondial 8T is the least expensive new Ferrari.
    
    And to answer the question posed in 43.63.  
    
    I do!! I do!!! I do!!!!
    
    Regards, and still saving ....
    JP

    Just to clarify some clarifications:-
    
    Mondial 8
    Produced 1980-83 with a total of 703 built.
    Engine V8 2926cc 214bhp at 6600rpm (205 USA) CR 8.8:1
    
    Mondial Qv
    Produced 1982-85 with a total of 1149 built.
    Engine V8 2926cc 4 valves/cylinder 240bhp at 7000rpm CR 9.2:1
    
    Mondial Cabriolet
    Produced 1983-85 with a total of 628 built.
    Engine as Modial Qv
    
    3.2 Mondial
    Produced 1985-89 120 built in 1985 and approx 560 in 1986.
    Engine V8 3185cc 270bhp at 7000rpm CR 9.8:1
    
    3.2 Mondail Cabriolet
    Produced 1985-89 80 built in 1985.
    Engine as 3.2 Mondial
    
    Mondial t
    Produced 1989-.
    Engine V8 3405cc 300bhp at 7200rpm CR 10.4:1
    
    Mondial t Cabriolet
    Produced 1989-.
    Engine as Mondial t
    
    
    Tony.

ALl the bits are put together, just needs decals now.  I even managed to find
the 1/12th mechanics to go with the F1 cars!

This makes 11 F1 cars, 4 of them Ferraris (312B, 312T2, 312T4 and 126CK)

Dave

    I've deleted replies .67 thru to .79.
    
    Enough is enough chaps. If you want to have a go at one another then by
    all means do so but by mail, NOT in a public notes conference.
    
    Savvy ?
    
    Rich
    

    Dear Mr Moderator.
                     I was wondering when you would step in and stop
                     this childish bickering,it's good to know that
                     there are still some good clean cut,upstanding
                     people like yourself in this world.
                     If it wasn't for people like you goodness knows
                     what sort of notes file we would have.
                     All i can say is keep up the good work mr moderator,
                     you splended chappy that you are.
                     Cherrio for now from the thorn in your side,
                           
                             Regards,
                          Richard Pullar, sorry just call me{Dick}.
                          
    
                                        
                             
                     

    I thought I should pass on this sad news.   It appears that Stanley
    Nowak (a respected author of many Ferrari books and a very knowlegeable
    person on the Ferrari name) died in April of this year.  I can attest
    to his knowledge as I own and have read a number of his books.  
    
    My condolences go out to his wife and family.
    
    JP Lavigne 

    Could some of you experts out there please tell me which Ferrari
    classic was sold in October 1989 for 440,000 pounds.
    
    	Thanks in advance.
    			
    		ED.

    How many Mars bar ice creams have you eaten????
    
    The one in the know!
    

    .70�    classic was sold in October 1989 for 440,000 pounds.
    
    Where was that ?
    
    Could be a 1963 250GTO or a 250GT SWB race car with history or ....

    Last I heard the 250 SWB had gone for about $7,000,000. US and the 250
    GTO for about $14,000,000. to someone in Japan.  Isn't 440,000 pounds
    equal to about $1,000,000. US?  Can you tell us which auction this car
    was sold at?
    Regards,
    JP

Automotive Investor (US rag that reports on auctions etc.) reported that
a 250SWB recently changed hands for $650,000 US! Very cheap, buy of a 
life time in their opinion. Car did not have a race history but was correct
and in decent condition. I forget the exact details but can find out if
anyone wants to know.

� Automotive Investor (US rag that reports on auctions etc.) reported that
� a 250SWB recently changed hands for $650,000 US! Very cheap, buy of a 
� life time in their opinion. Car did not have a race history but was correct
    
    
    Hey... I'd better raid my piggy bank !!!
    
    Shaun ;^)

    A few days ago I visited Pierre de Siebenthal's workshop near Lausanne,
    Switzerland. Among the incredible list of cars presently there mostly
    waiting for repair/restoration (AM DB5, AH3000 racing car, Maseratis,
    Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, various single seaters, ...) I
    spotted a car I'd only seen on Ferrari books :
    
                      the mythic NEMBO 
    
    The NEMBO is a splendid spyder built by Carrozeria NERI & BONACCINI on
    a 1959 250 GT chassis. The NEMBO looks like the other myth : the spyder
    NART based on the 275GTB chassis, but is longer and lower. A classic
    Ferrari. It is currently painted in Ferrari red (rosso chiaro) with a
    black leather interior.
    
    The NEMBO is currently registered in Switzerland. De Siebenthal does
    not disclose his customers names.

    Is this the one where the back wheels are partially covered and there
    are two big squarish front head lights.  If it is this one, does it
    look better in person?  The reason I ask is that it is one of the few
    ugly Ferrari's that I have ever seen in print.  Having said that...I
    visited a Dealership in Florida a few weeks back, bought a few things
    and was given the tour of their service bays and restoration area.  Of
    the few notable cars, there was a yellow 275 gtb competion which had
    raced at Le Mans, a pristine 250 GT SWB, a 206S in racing colors and
    trim and a truly beautifull F40 which was in for it's first check-up.
    
    Truly a gorgeous sight!!!
    
    Regards,
    JP
    PS Having never attended any Ferrari events yet, this was the first
    time I had seen any Ferrari's in the flesh.  Other than a 328 and
    Testarossa.

    .77�    Is this the one where the back wheels are partially covered and there
    .77�    are two big squarish front head lights.  If it is this one, does it
    .77�    look better in person?  The reason I ask is that it is one of the few
    .77�    ugly Ferrari's that I have ever seen in print.  Having said that...I
                                                                        
    No, no, no
    
    The NEMBO is similar to the 275 NART (the 275GTB cabriolet version)
    except that it is probably longer and lower, giving it a really
    dramatic appearance. The front is basically that of a long nose 275GTB
    with covered headlights. There was only one built (to my knowledge).
    
    If you haven't seen a 275 NART spyder (there were approximately 10
    built on special order for Luigi Chinetti, NART boss and US Ferrari
    importer) you may recall the movie with Steve McQueen and Faye Dunaway
    (Thomas Crown) where a superb 275 NART spyder appears. This was Steve
    McQueen's own example. Chinetti supplied a number of Ferrari specials
    to Steve McQueen, most of which were ugly variations on the Corvette
    theme.

    
    OK now I now wich one you mean.  BTW have you ever seen the one I'm
    talking about.  Got is it UGLY.
    
    I'm curious have you ever attended any Ferrari club meets in Europe,
    (you seem to know your stuff).
    
    Regards,
    JP

Saw a NART Spyder last spring at a car show. Beautifull machine, too bad the
owner was such a snot! However, there was also a Type 166 Barchetta which is
my all time favorite and it's owner was very pleasent and delighted in showing/
talking about his car

Signed,

A_former_Ferrari_owner_still_kicking_myself_for_selling

    Re;-1
    
    Which Ferrari did you own?  I have met and talked with several owner
    now and haven't met a "snot" yet.  I don't know if I can pick out one
    favorite but I can pick out the one affordable ;-) favorite i would
    like to own...The 330 GT 2+2 with the 4 headlights and it would have to
    be black.  Too bad you got rid of yours.
    
    Regards,
    A Ferrari lover who hassn't quite been able to afford a real one yet. 
    JP

    
>    Which Ferrari did you own?  

1949(?) Type 166 Inter, serial number 006S (or something like that, I forget).
It was a 2 liter, single carb, 5 speed, right hand drive, 2 passenger coupe.
Body by Stablimenti Farina. Not a particular pretty car but a Ferrari just the
same. At the time I owned it, it was the oldest Ferrarir in the US. I sold it
to a well known collector who restored it and also bought a convertible version
of the same model to go with it. Both cars have since become the property of 
the Black Hawk collection in california  so I have been told.

    Actually I think I've seen pictures of this collection in an old
    Cavallino magazine, or was it the Prancing Horse magazine??? I'll have to
    take a look through my collection and see if I can find it.  It must
    have been a tough job trying to restore something like that.  My
    understanding is that a lot of the pieces have to made for each
    individual car.  Too bad though, right now it's probably worth a small
    fortune.

I 'started' to fix the car up. The suspension was very loose and investigation
showed that just about everything that needed replacement looked hand 
fabricated. I had neither the money nor the skill to even attempt anything
of that sort (this was over 20 years ago). The body was actually in pretty
good shape except for the paint. (an ugly 'fridge' white). With the exception
of one knob, all the accessorties/twiddley bits were there including the
roman numeral labeled gear knob (loved that). The engine ran but not too
smoothly.

The gentleman I sold it too was a 'big' name in the old car hobby at the time,
owning a Simplex, a 30/98 Vauxhall and a Miller front wheel drive Indy car
among others. He was an inventor by trade (invented the iron lung) and had
a basement workshop that was very well equiped. He had the engine out and
apart in about a week and told me the crank had to be replaced. I have no
idea what that cost but I'm certain I would not have been able to afford it.

    .77�    Is this the one where the back wheels are partially covered and there
    .77�    are two big squarish front head lights.  If it is this one, does it
    .77�    look better in person?  The reason I ask is that it is one of the few
    .77�    ugly Ferrari's that I have ever seen in print.  Having said that...I
    
    Everything is a matter of taste. Having said that there are a number
    of beautiful Ferraris but there are also a number of ugly ones.
    Personnally I hate the early Ghia/Vignale bodies as well as the various 
    US specials made more or less for Steve McQueen (they look like
    modified Corvetts, I have nothing against the Corvettes). Zagato did a
    few ugly examples also (in my opinion).

    Well I did a little bit of investigating on the 166 Inter.  According
    to my info there are only 5 166 Inter coupes with stabilmenti Farina
    coach work.
    #1 is serial # 009S built in early 49 and the first owner was a Franco
    Cornacchia.
    #2 is serial # 021S sold by the factory in 27/7/49 and is supposedly
    still in the UK.
    #3 is serial #031S sold by the factory in 9/6/49.  Is supposedly in
    Cldorado with a Buik engine (I think this is very rude).  It may also
    have been rebodied with an older spyder????
    #4 is serial # 037S built in 1950 and the first owner was suposedly a
    Mr. Tamorri.
    #5 is serial # 041S.  SAupposedly sold to a Mr. D. Cameron Peck in the
    the US as a STA. FAR. Coupe, then converted to a Touring Le Mans
    Berlinetta and the back to Coupe Form.
    
    With regards to your car I would guess it deffinately wasn't #2 or #5
    and I don't think it was #3. and # 4 was supposedly built in 1950 so it
    must have been the first one.  Do you keep in touch with the previous
    owners?  If we can narrow it down to the exact # I' ll keep an eye out
    for it at the next couple of meets.
    
    I just love researching these old cars!!
    Regards,
    JP

Mine was #1! 

Somewhere I have a folder with all the information I got when I bought the car.
I responded to an ad in Road and Track. The car was in Italy, I was in the US. 
Several letters were exchanged (his in Italian, mine in English...). 
Essentially I bought the car sight unseen. (He did send me a fuzzy photograph.) 

The seller was also trying to get me to buy a Gilera V8 (???) motorcycle at
the same time. (memory a bit dim on the bike details).

The car was shipped to me in Boston. I showed up at the pier with the 
appropriate papers etc., put a battery in the car, started it up an drove
home! That 15-20 mile trip was the only time the car ran while I owned it. I
could tell the suspension was too loose to be safe (or pass State inspection)
so I proceded to take the front end apart as mentioned previously. Circumstances
changed shortly after that and I lost my work/storage space. The car was put
into another storage area but I couldn't work on it there. It sat for maybe
5-6 years before I decided to sell it. All this took place between 1960 and 
1972.

I'm pretty sure the man I sold it to is dead. He was over 65 when he bought it.

I sold off a number of collectible cars when I was young and foolish. The
Ferrari was just one of them. Others that I recall were a SIATA (I know who has
it), a Porsche Speedster (1957), a 4 cylinder AH100, several pre-WWII Fords
etc., etc.

    I'll keep my eyes open and let you know what has happened to it.
    
    Regards,
    JP
    
    P.S. I won't tell you what it is now valued at as this may depress you even
    more.    ;-)
    

re: value

Thank you for not telling me, I know it would increase my bar bill significantly
if I knew. Especially after not selling my Aston Martin 18 months ago when 
prices reached silly levels.

Btw, several years ago I saw my Inter and it's convertible mate offered in
Hemmings for $75k for the pair.

    Re car #41S there was a full lenght article a few months back
    describing this car ant it's travels and restoration.  It had some
    beautifull color photos of it completely restored.  This was Cavallino
    issue #63 I think.  Would it be possible to get copies of all your
    original info.  The reason I ask is that the article seemed to imply
    that the other cars werabouts are not currently known, and I was going
    to send a letter off explaining your part of 009S history with the
    hopes of finding out what has happened to it.  
    
    Like I said I just love researching these old cars.
    
    BTW if would rather not send me the info that is quite fine and I will
    understand.
    Regards,
    JP Lavigne	KAO 4-3/8A
    
    P.S. to make you feel better about the price.  It is now worth only
    about half of what it was worth 2-3 years ago.  So there is obviously
    someone who is having a worse day than yourself.  Hang on to the Aston
    for another year and it should get back it's value of 18 months ago.
    ;-) 

    .90�    P.S. to make you feel better about the price.  It is now worth only
    .90�    about half of what it was worth 2-3 years ago.  So there is obviously
    .90�    someone who is having a worse day than yourself.
    
    Over here, it's only the "speculator's cars" that have gone down to
    their normal level after the crazy years (308s, 328s, GTOs, F40s, etc).
    The real collector cars haven't changed and are still going up : all
    Ferrari race cars with history, 250GT LWB/SWB, old rare  examples, etc
    
    Based on recent transaction records, the prices haven't gone down. But
    you can now buy a 10 year old 308 for a decent price. 

    I agree, anything with any kind of real or even perceived racing
    history is still rising in price although this rise has slowed
    cosiderably.  I love it though, you can now pick up 308 GT4's in the
    low 30K's, newer 308's and 328's in the 40-50's and even the new 348's
    at 90K.  I have even seen 246GTS's at 70K.  Modial's and even the
    365GTC4 are way below 100K.  It makes me think that I will eventually
    get something with a prancing horse on the hood.  There was a recent
    add in one of my newsletters that had a 308 GTSi for only 18K.....
    unfortunately the rear quarter panels were burnt.  supposedly no damage
    to the engine.  To bad I didn't have the expertise or cash for that
    matter to make an investment.  One other great price was on a Fiat Dino
    coupe at 12K It was supposedly in excellent shape mechanically and body
    wise, but needed a little work on the inside.
    
    
    Regards, and still wishing for a break with the lotteries,
    JP

    On the way twixt Salisbury and Blandford Forum a few weeks back, I
    passed a place with prancing horses affixed, along with a sign saying
    "Nigel Mansell Sports Cars" or some such.  There were many of said
    type horsey cars about - almost every one the typical red.  They
    included many models.
    
    Can one safely assume that Nige actually owns the place, or does he
    lease his name, or...?
    
    Cheers...Gary
    
    P.S. Sorry - I don't remember the road number, but could find out if
         you care at all.

    Nigel Mansell Sports Cars is owened (and too some extent run) by
    out-man-Nige. He was interviewed by the soon to be defunct TV-am a few
    weeks back and said ``It's more fun than running a Renault Dealership
    and he intends to keep going with it eventhough he doesn't drive for
    the any more''
    
    As for the price of the good cars.
    
    	308GT4	1978	30K miles	�18,000	October Motor Sport
    	308GTS	1981	32K miles	�32,000	Sunday Times yesterday
    
    Both cars FHS etc The GT4 was yellow, the GTS was the correct colour.
    There were about 15-20 308GT[B|S]'s in the 'Times with prices from
    about 30K (Not FSH >40K miles) to 42K (FSH <10K). I see the prices of
    these ``mass produced'' cars propping to about 25K and staying there.
    
    On a side note, there was a NSX for sale at 45K, thats 10K depreciation
    in less than 12 months.
    
    	Rik (Waiting for a 308GTB @25K :-)

    Ferrari have introduced their new 
    
    				456GT
    
    in Belgium last week for the 40th anniversary of Garage Francorchamps
    the belgian Ferrari importer.
    
    The car is a 2+2 and intends to fill the space that was occupied by the
    365GT, 400GT, 412GT in the past. It is a front engined car.
    
    The engine is a 5.4ltr V12 with 6 cyl banks angled at 65 degrees. The
    cylinder capacity is 456cc, hence the name. 442bhp peak output with
    560Nm peak torque. Both figures are better than the 512TR engine's
    equivalent (equal capacity).
    
    The car looks very much like a modern DAYTONA (365GTB). The project
    name (unofficial) was AMERICA. Ferrari never called the 365GTB DAYTONA
    but that is the name by which every one called it anyway. May be the
    456GT will become the AMERICA ...
    
    Beautiful job done by Pininfarina.
    
    Ferrari have done a goob job at making the 456GT very comfortable and
    very modern, much like the BMW 850 or the Porsche 928GTS. In terms of
    weight the Ferrari is MUCH lighter than the BMW but heavier than the
    Porsche. Top speed announced as 300kph+.
    
    
    

    My Dad once owned a Lamborghini Espada - not a Ferrari I know, but a
    beautiful 4 seater that went like hot S$$T!
    
    I was only about 8 or 10 when he had the car and can only really
    remember a trip to Austria when we broke down and a guy from Vienna had
    to travel over night to the car because no one else dare touch the
    engine!!
    
    It was a midnight blue V12 ( I think ) and my old man loved that car -
    not wealthy by any means, just spent all his life savings.
    
    He now owns a Golf GTI after selling the Espada in 1986...tut..tut
    
    Dieter Schanzer(UK)

    .96�    My Dad once owned a Lamborghini Espada - not a Ferrari I know, but a
    .96�    beautiful 4 seater that went like hot S$$T!
    
    A man of very good taste !
    
    FYI the Lambo V12 actually has something to do with Ferrari. The Lambo
    engine was designed by engineer Giotto Bizzarini around 1962-1963.
    Bizzarini is the well known engineer who had designed the famous
    Ferrari 250 GTO (chassis, body, gearbox and engine improvements).
    Bizzarini and a few engineers left Ferrari due to some unclear dispute.
    One of his free lance contracts was to design a 4 cam V12 for Mr
    Lamborghini. The engine was later slightly modified (rebored and
    detuned) by another famous engineer (GianPaolo Dallara). The result is
    the engine that powered those myths: Miura, Espada, Countach, ... 

    Thanks for the info!! ...very interesting!!
    
    Dieter Schanzer.

    Patrick,
    
    I have a question for you.  I am trying to find out if there ever was a 
    250 GT Experimentale, that had the nose of a 250GTO with only 2
    openings on the front (as opposed to the standard 3 openings), it rear 
    end very much resembles a 250 TDF and came with whitewall tires.  
    
    The reason I ask is that I have seen a german model of 1 and it does
    not look like any model I have ever seen before.  I have heard mention
    in many books of a preliminay 250GTO but have not been able to locate 
    any pictures.  Can you shed any light on this subject.  I have gone
    through all the books I have and there are no pictures of this car.
    
    regards,
    JP Lavigne
                                                                       

    Could it be 2643GT ?
    
    This is the experimental Ferrari that ran Le Mans 1961 and 1962 (as
    well as Daytona, Sebring, ...). It is based on a 250GT SWB with a 
    400SA (SuperAmerica) - like body.
    
    I have photos of it. Do you want a xerox copy ?

    Nope, it's not 2643 that I am thinking of.  This one has the nose of a
    250GTO with only 2 openings, evenly spaced from the center of the nose.
    I have an idea on the S/N and will post that tomorrow.  I have seen the
    pictures of the one you mentioned.  I don't believe (the one i am try
    ing to locate) was ever raced.
    
    regards,
    JP  

    JP,
    
    I know it's MONTHS since you posted the last note, but have you solved
    th enquiry ???? I wondered if you were referring to the GTO proto that
    Stirling Moss tested at Monza in September '61 ???? The car is
    described in Jess Pouret's 250 Competition book. The proto has alloy
    panels looking like a moonscape and has a 'hunched' backend that looks
    sort-of-TDF ...
    
    Ciao - Mark
    

    
    Guy's,
    
    can anyone send me the official DIGITAL/FERRARI posters
    

>    can anyone send me the official DIGITAL/FERRARI posters
 
Me too!   

If no posters are available, I'll settle for a Ferrari F40...

    
    Me too!
    
    It's getting repetitive isn't it!
    
    	Andy  @WLC G8

    .103�    can anyone send me the official DIGITAL/FERRARI posters
    
    Is there a DIGITAL/FERRARI poster (that I don't know about). Anything
    recent ? I still have some of the old ones (when the DIGITAL logo was
    carried).

    
    >>I still have some old ones(when the DIGITAL logo was carried).
    
    
    That's the one i'm after.
    
    	Andy.

    I finally located Mr. Waite's ex Ferrari.  It's in Maranello in the
    Galleria Ferrari.  It's chassis #009 and staes the history as.
    #1 appeared at the Geneva show in 1948.
    raced by Franco Cornachia in Monza 1950, sold to a Mr. Enrico in 53,
    sold to someone in in Rome later and was then imported in 64 by Richard
    Waite.  Then sold to Edgar L. Roy, then sold in the mid 70's to Mark
    Gibbons.  Bob Epstein then shipped it back to Europe where it now is in
    Italy.
    
    Richard if your still at DEC and would like the article let me know and
    I'll send off a copy of the article.
    regards,
    JP

  JP, Dick is no longer with the company, but with Jom Koehler or Skip
  Readio should be able to contact him.
  
  Dave

    posters
    
    I know 3 posters from DIGITAL/FERRARI.
    The first I haven't got,
    the other 2 are the one taken with a "bulls eye lense"
    the other Alboreto.
    Just want you to know that DIGITAL is still on the front of 
    the FERRARI's .
    The problem is, that only DIGITAL-Italy is sponsoring the "reds"
    and we should ask Italy if there are other posters!!!
    Anyone with connections??
    
    
    In return , I could send you the FERRARI poster with MANSELL in it.
    
    
    O.K. guy's lets go to work.
    
    Greetings,
    
    Raymond.
    
    You can also phono DTN Amsterdam, and ask for Raymond Pantus.
    

    Competition Sport Car designed under 94 IMSA WSC rules.
    
    below are details on the new as yet unanounced Ferrari 330 WSC.
    Engine is derived from the project 130 car.  12 Cly V at 65 degrees.
    3997 CC capacity, 5 valves per cylinder, maximum output to 600.
    It revs to over 11,000 RPM, water cooled, FI and titanium valves and
    rods.
    Gearbox is transverse inside the wheelbase, 5 speed plus reverse,
    sequential mechanical shift lever and Limited Slip diff.
    Chassis is carbonfibre composite aluminum honeycomb core.
    Wheelbase is 2750mm, front tract 1660mm, and rear 1572mm
    Fuel capacity 70-100 litrs/will be able to run at LeMans.
    Body work is composite material in carbonfibre and Nomex core.
    It kind of looks like the last batmobile form the current movies, with
    a large Indy like wind and it is open roof.
    Very interesting looking.
    regards,
    JP

    Ferrari have just announced they will not race their new open 333SP at
    Sebring as originally planned. Published reason is that they are late
    with the preparation of the car.

    I am surprised that no-one has mentioned the Ferrari Berlinetta Boxer
    in these notes.
    
    I reckon one of the best looking Ferraris of all time. A couple of
    weeks ago in Kings Cross Sydney, there was one sat at the lights. He
    tried to race me in my 1 litre Suzuki jeep and gave it a large. For
    some reason I couldnt catch the bugger for the first 400metres. Then
    the superior driving took over and I hit the next lights before him.
    
    The reason being that his carbs blew and petrol started pis*ing out the
    back of his exhausts spraying the whole road with petrol. An expensive
    trick me thinks!!
    
    Even though he looked a old duffer you had to admire the way he gave his car
    all or nothing. The only way a ferrari should be driven. I would love
    one but personally I think that I would survive no more than a few
    minutes in it. I am going to settle for a pre 70's MGB roadster when I
    go home to the UK.
    
    Its better to burn out than to fade away!
    
    Cheers, Kenneth 
    
                                       

    Re your comments on old duffers. I can well remember talking to the
    late Charles Linsey some years back. This man looked like butterfly
    collecting would be his fort�. But to see him flying round (and often
    off) Olton Park in ERA 13b is a sight I shalt forget in a hurry.
    
    	Rik

Ah, er , I can remember Graham Hill and Stirling Moss and many many others in
original, new cars at the same venue. Am I old or what!! ;-))

    And the only thing that can't break in a Ferrari is its engine ... so
    you can really (ab)use it ! as long as the road is straight. I have
    experienced the Berlinetta Boxer on several surfaces. I really prefer
    to drive it on motorways ...

    I well remember the (in)famous quote from Enzo when asked by some one
    or other for a driving course. "Use the rev.s"
    
    	Rik

    
    
    How about the newest one, FERRARI 355 ??
    
    Andy

    .118�    How about the newest one, FERRARI 355 ??
    
    Reading the road tests, it seems Ferrari have designed a really good
    car. The engine is truly brilliant, roadholding is better than with the
    348 and build quality is good.
    
    I look forward to test drive one ...

    .119>>  I hope you will feel the performance of Ferrari 355 berlinetta
    and will tell us immediately. Thank you before that.
    
    I read from a automotive Tabloid in our Country ("OTOMOTIF"), the
    berlinetta not only have best performance, but the design is fantastic.
    The exterior design is more proportional than 348 (355 shorter than
    F-series before).
    The bottom of 355 is covered by flat deck, it is increasing the
    aerodinamic (like TOYOTA concept car AXV-V).
    
    bst rgds,
    Andy
    

    Well I finally got to test drive several Ferrari's lasst week-end.  And
    I now can even afford one, but which one do I get?  The drives were a
    blast and they all felt a little different to drive.  The only
    commonality whas that the steering is heavy at low speeds and the rear
    visibilty is not that great.  What a great way to spend a thursday
    afternoon.
    
    They hadn't  taken delivery of the 355's but the sales person told me
    that the new pricing was going to be only about 2K abouve the 348's,
    and that they will probably have to discount the 348's to move them.
    What a shame.....;-)
    
    regards,
    JP

JP - great news!  What are the models you're looking at?  Are you going after a
new one or a used one?

Planning any road trips when you take delivery?

Dave

    This guy I HATE!
    
    Sulk

    JP, there are TONS of used 328s and 348s with very low mileage for
    sale. Unless you really want to get leading technology (and have the
    funds) you can get a good Ferrari at half the price of a new one. 
    The 355 will start shipping soon but, as usual, the initial load is
    booked for 6-9 months.
    
    Tell us more when your project moves.

    
    Patrick
    
    Just exactly what prices are we talking here, i.e. will I EVER be able
    to afford a Ferrari, ANY Ferrari as long as it is red??
    
    Mike

    And just what is wrong with a yellow Ferrari ?
    
    	Rik

    Belgian racing colurs!

    Gee did I start something here or what.  Actually the dealer had a
    couple of very nice inexpensive cars.  A baby blue 308GT4 for 20K, a
    red 308GTS QV for 34K and a really beatifull white on burgundy 308 GTS
    QV  with only 11K miles for about 45K.  As for road trips, if or when I
    get it, I would be driving it home from Ft. Lauderdale, so I guess I
    could drop in on you Dave.  As for the 328's and 348's they are a
    little out of my range right now.  The 348's are still above the 70K
    range.
    
    BTW Patrick, while I was in the showroom they took me back to where they
    were completely restoraing a 250 GTO, It has racing #7 on it and as soon
    as I get my pictures developed I 'll tell what the serial numbers are. 
    This is the same place where they restored the yellow 275 GTB C that
    Peter Henn just restored.  I've got lots of pictures as well of the
    restoration of the 275.  Both are beautifull race cars.

    Re. - a few
    
    See 1178.871 -> .875 to see why yellow is a good colout for a Ferrari/
    
    	Rik

JP

If the 250 GTO is dark blue, lay odds on it being an ex Rob Walker car driven by
Moss...... I can still see the image of similar in a glorious 4 wheel drift
around Woodcote..

I assume you are talking Canadian Dollars here and due to the none payment of
wages I still can't quite manage one :-(( One day I'll get my hands on one and
go sprinting and hillclimbing in style.....and before anyone says anything, I
can dream can't I!

Mike

>As for road trips, if or when I get it, I would be driving it home from Ft.
>Lauderdale, so I guess I could drop in on you Dave. 

What's your rough time frame?  1 month, 6 months?  Given enough lead time, maybe
I can get the Isetta on the road so we can swap rides for a spin around the
block!  I can at least offer you some non-synchro lessons with the '24 if you
want....

Dave

    Time frame is still up in the air.  As for the 250GTO it is a red one. 
    It was also in the shop getting it's original 4.0L engine put back into
    it.  I didn't know they made the pre-64 cars with that size of an
    engine.  Anyways another week and i'll have the pictures back and will
    be able to tell you exactly which ar it is.  BTW those were all
    american dollars.  Right now the exchange rate is what is stopping me
    from making the purchase today.

Shouldn't the 250 have a 3.0 litre (250cc*12)?

Dave

    Dave and JP might be both right. The 250 is a 3litre engine. But some
    GTO chassis/bodies have raced with 330 ie 4litre engines. Now, between
    you and me ... only the 250 engine is of real value. 

>
>    Gee did I start something here or what.  Actually the dealer had a
>    couple of very nice inexpensive cars.  A baby blue 308GT4 for 20K, a

If you are talking sterling then 20K is the upper limit nowadays
for a 308 GT4. If dollars then this is probably the right price for an OK
example. Earlier this year CAR magazine compared a good 308 GT4 with a new
Toyota MR2, both of which cost about #17K. The Jap box didn't come off very
well in any catagory against the 20 yr old Dino.

The local Ferrari garage has 3 GT4s for sale ranging from SFr 32K- SFr 50K.
If you ever wanted a Ferrari now is the time. If you are looking for a fun
investment then for under SFr100k you can get a collectable such as a Tesstarossas,
246s or 330 GTC (my favorite).


/Paul.

Btw I scanned in the article in CAR. If anyone's interested I will post it
(if I haven't deleted it).

re.135:

>Earlier this year CAR magazine compared a good 308 GT4 with a new
>Toyota MR2, both of which cost about #17K. The Jap box didn't come off very
>well in any catagory against the 20 yr old Dino.

Not even cost of ownership?

Dave.

re.136:
    
>> Not even cost of ownership?
    
    No, why should it? The biggest cost of ownership is depreciation.
    
    Which car will be closest to #17K in 4 years time? The only way the
    Ferarri will get further away is if it appreciates which it might of
    course.
    
    	John O'Connor

	How much would the insurance be on one of these highly desirable
beasties?

	FC and TP,F&T of course?

				Malcolm

    Re: .130
    
    The Moss Goodwood cars were both 250SWB's, not GTO, I can't recall the
    serial of the '60 car, but the '61 car was 2735GT ... both cars owned
    by Rob Walker with his distinctive racing colours of dark blue with
    white nose stripe. Moss won both years, reputedly whilst listening to
    the race report on the car radio in '61 !!! Such style ...
    
    Moss tested the GTO proto at Monza and was due to race a Rob Walker GTO
    but had the terrible crash at Goodwood in the Lotus .......
    
    Not a nitpick in .130, honestly, hope it's of interest tho' ...
    
    
    	Mark
    

    250 GTE ...
    
    Anyone have a view on the value of a 250GTE (2+2) Body and chassis
    together ??? I gather the motor, box, axle, suspension, steering,
    brakes, interior are not included ......... it's in the UK ...
    
    Any opinions welcome !!
    
    (currently driving a 16v Integrale with a Ferrari horn button on the
    Momo .... sad eh ???)
    
    	Mark
    

    Mark
    
    No offence taken, yes it was of interest, the old grey cells
    conveniently forgot that. It was a VERY long time ago.
    
    Mike

    .140�    Anyone have a view on the value of a 250GTE (2+2) Body and chassis
    .140�    together ??? I gather the motor, box, axle, suspension, steering,
    .140�    brakes, interior are not included ......... it's in the UK ...
    
    The value of the 250GTE went pretty high in the last 10 years for
    several reasons:
    
    	- it has a genuine 250 Colombo engine that may easily been upgraded
          to 250GT L/SWB or GTO specs. 240 up to 300bhp
    
    	- it has a genuine 250 chassis. 260cm wheelbase that may easily be
          reduced to 240cm, in order to build GTO or SWB replicas.
    
    If the engine is missing ... then ... and depending on the status of
    the bodywork ... it should not cost much anyway. A 250 engine can still
    be found but it will definitely be the highest cost in the whole
    project. I know a guy around here who has a few spare engines but I
    don't think he would accept to sell one (at what price ?)  
                                                             

    There have been some reputable and unreputable garages that are taking
    250 GTE's and 330 2+2's, removing the body and turning them into SWB's
    and GTO's.  I remember a few years back someone getting caught in
    europe trying to pass these off as the real thing.  The body is really
    the cheapest part of the car if you don't have an engine or
    transmission.  On the plus side there may be some 250 GTE owners who
    have mangled there body work and need a new one.  Regarding insurance
    for the Ferrari.  It would cost me about the same as my current car to
    keep it on the road for six months and not put any more than 10,000 KM.
    My current car is a 93 Mazda Protege GT.
    Keep in mind that I have seen 250 GTE's in excellent shape (with engine
    and all) for sale in the low 40's to mid 50's.
    
    regards,
    JP

    EXCITING !!!!
    
    Thanks for your inputs ... so I just made the call. It was a spares
    car/donor for a 250GTO rep ... quite a lot there ... and ummm
    
    	affordable !!!   Hope to see it at the weekend .....
    
    Oh god .... megadebt here we come !!
    
    
    	Ciao
    
    		Mark
     

>
>
>        How much would the insurance be on one of these highly desirable
>beasties?
>
>        FC and TP,F&T of course?
>

A lot less than you think. Limited mileage policies are cheap. I believe
the UK Ferrari Club has such an arrangement.

So what are you waiting for?


/Paul.

    Waiting for the Canadian dollar to stabalize so that I don't spend it
    all on the exchange rate.
    
    JP

    >.131 
    I had an Isetta 300 a couple of years ago, it got more looks
    than a Ferrari - especially when it was doing 360's in the local pub
    carpark.
    
    Always liked the Dino though.
    
    

    >>especially when it was doing 360's in the local pub carpark.
    
    kids! ;-)

    No kid!!!!!
    
    It was a right Hand Drive 1960 Isetta 300. The driver (moi) sits on a
    bench seat on the right side, the engine is directly behind the driver
    - also on the right side. Inside the car is a big lump of steel bolted
    to the front left side to act as a counterbalance. Trouble is that the
    combined weight of yours truly (not heavy at 13 stone) and the engine
    is probably 20 times the weight of said counterbalance.
    
    To cut a long story short..... it was a lovely summer night at about
    8:30pm when me and my mate decided to go for a quick pose down the
    local. Now this place is jam packed at 7:30 being the in-place to be
    (of course (sic)) and there must have been 100 people supping outside at
    the time. I pulled into the carpark, stopped sharpish to let my mate
    out to get the ale in (he couldn't wait to get out) and drove around a
    small island in the middle of the carpark. Well my mate is a fat git
    and the resulting loss of counterbalance was lost on me as I concentrated
    on parking the "bubble" in the coolest way possible.
    Are you still reading?
    Well, the island needed to be negotiated left hand down sort of style
    and over it went. Good job I had the sunroof down though cos it enabled
    me to use my elbow as a brake before it rolled back over on its wheels
    and ploughed into the landladys Nissan Cherry.
    Don't beleive it ?
    Two weeks later whilst listening to "Gary Davies in the afternoon" on
    radio 1, (he does a spot where people write in and tell him of "Most
    embarrasing Moments"), Gary read out a letter from some bloke who had
    written in who happened to be boozing in the pub that night.
    
    I could go on for ever...... (sorry mod., I know this is a Ferrari note 
    but he did ask!!)

    OK fellars, the jokes over.
    
    I need some serious advice from out there.
    
    I've been offered a low mileage 1983 Mondial for 15K (Sterling) and I
    would like your opinions.
    
    1. Will it keep its value over 5 years?
    2. What mileage can I drive without having to worry about expensive
       sevicing costs? (Yes, I want to buy a Ferrari - No, I haven't got more
       money than sense)
    3. Is it a car I can leave for weeks at a time and then just jump in and go?
    4. Is the Mondial a Ferrari worth owning (Yes I know any Ferrari is
       worth owning!)
    
    
    Get to it boys!

    I'm not sure what you get with a 83 Mondial but some thing to know.
    
    The 3.0 QV is ment to be a bit of a pig, the engine is a detuned
    variant of the 308 lump. Then can the 3.2l beast, this by all accounts
    is a lot better. However, A Ferrari is a Ferrari is a Ferrari. The
    Bertone bodied cars tend to cost less that the Pinaf..(?sp) cars
    
�    1. Will it keep its value over 5 years?
    	Yes, if its looked after.
�    2. What mileage can I drive without having to worry about expensive
�       sevicing costs? (Yes, I want to buy a Ferrari - No, I haven't got more
�       money than sense)
    	3000 miles a year get you cheap insurance as a classic car (100's,
        not 1000's of pounds). Then service interval for th 3.0 and 3.2
        engines is 6,000 miles or once per year should set you back
    	between �250 and �500 depending where you go.
�    3. Is it a car I can leave for weeks at a time and then just jump in and
�    	go?
    	If looked after yes, the 4 door cars a pretty reliable.
�    4. Is the Mondial a Ferrari worth owning (Yes I know any Ferrari is
�       worth owning!)
    	Yes.
    
    	What's you mail stop I'll photocopy some stuff of "cheap" Ferrari
    	ownership.
    
    	Oh, and join the owners clubs.
    
    		Rik

    re -1
    
    Thanks for info Rik - email is Lunns @UVO
    
    I had a look at a 1977 GT4 Dino on Sunday - the seller wants 13K for
    it - 32,000 miles on the clock. It had been re-spayed over rotten
    wheel arches and was blistered all over the place.
    Also no history pre '87 which adds up to possible headaches in the not
    too distant future.
    The car ran very well and looked good but I think there are better cars
    available for the price asked and I doubt the mileage claim.
    
    Rgds 
    Steve
    
    

    I would be very leary of any of the GT4 having less than 40K miles
    unless it is in excellent condition.  I recently looked over a baby
    blue one in Ft Lauderdale with about 75K miles, it was excellenty
    outside but it looked like a family of squirrels had lived inside it
    for years.  I ended up buying a little MX5 when I got home, the
    Ferrari will have to wait until I find exactly what I want, and let's
    face it, it is still a buyers market out there.  I second the idea of
    joining the club.  I joined here in Canada and the wealth of
    information that opens up when you join in phenominal.
    Good luck, with the purchase.  BTW if it's not red you should be able
    to haggle more on the purchase price.
    
    JP

    My views differ slightly from Rik's so here goes ...
    
    .150�    1. Will it keep its value over 5 years?
    
    Yes, at 15K you should be safe.
    
    .150�    2. What mileage can I drive without having to worry about expensive
    .150�       sevicing costs?
    
    Recommendation: use the car regularly, but not necessarily for long
    journeys. These cars need to run.
    
    .150�    3. Is it a car I can leave for weeks at a time and then just jump in and go?
    
    No. Keep it in a dry/heated place and have it run once a week (30min)
    to get everything warm. Make sure it has enough water and oil. The wide
    tyres, especially if it has Pirellis, don't like to remain idle (they
    get unbalanced).
    
    .150�    4. Is the Mondial a Ferrari worth owning (Yes I know any Ferrari is
    
    God knows what the Ferrari community will think of the Mondial in 30-50
    years from now ... For the time being you must know that the Mondial
    did not sell. Each Ferrari dealer was forced by the factory to take a
    number of Mondials if they wanted the more popular models (328, BB, TR,
    F40 ...).
    
    Now the Mondial may be a good buy if you intend to use it. It is roomy
    (4 seats) and has a detuned engine equipped with petrol injection. 
    
    The 308GT4 at 13K is similar except that its engine is fed by 
    carburettors. These have a well-known tendency to get out of tune very
    quickly. So be ready to either pay the mechanic or do it yourself
    (often).
    
    Finally one word on Ferrari engines and gearboxes: they are unbreakable
    so don't worry about these. If they are well looked after (water, oil)
    that's the only part of the car that won't cause any trouble. Pipes,
    wires, carpets, locks, and all the other little gadgets are a different
    story.
    
    Hope this helps.  

    Thanks for the info Patrick.
    
    The way the market is at the moment I think the Mondial is the only way
    to go. The 308 GTB is IMO far better looking but even kit car 308's are
    advertised for circa 15K - the real thing closer to double that. 
    
    The GT4 seems to be riddled with seventies slapdash finish.
    Nearly all the ones I've seen advertised are restorations which would
    indicate that they were not too cleverly built in the first place.
    Afterall, who in their right mind would allow a Ferrari to rot? 
    
    I've seen a '87 (46,000 mile) Mondial for less than 20 grand at a dealers 
    with FSH etc. I just need a little more convincing!
    
    Steve
    

	Back in 1982 a colleague bought a GT4, R or S reg I think, and
	it had holes in the body that you could poke your fingers into!.

	-John

    Ref .151 
    
    Received today, thanks Rik.
    
    Still looking for the right one - read less than 20K.
    
    Steve.
    

    I've just been to see one of our esteemed business partners.
    
    MDs new car? M reg deep blue Ferrari, brown interior. No badges.
    Someone ventured a 408? All curves and slightly similar shape to the
    new A-M. Did look impressive though.

    It sounds like a 456GT, see 43.95 for Patrick's write up. They cost
    about 160K GBP.
    
    	Rik

    re 157
    My brother used to work for a bodyshop contracted by H.R Owen for all
    work on Ferrari. He has driven all post 70s models (except GTO and F40)
    reckons Mondial to be just a tad softer than 2 seat V8s but still no
    slug.Mechanical parts are quite reasonable but labour rates tend to be
    higher than Jag Rolls etc. I would recommend you beware of any any
    electrical problems as they are more numerous,more difficult to trace
    and therefore more expensive to fix. Full Ferrari dealer service
    history is a must.
    
    P.S  About 5 years ago I drove a 308 GTS. I cant tell you much about it
    except it had a prancing horse on the steering wheel boss and I had a
    huge grin which lasted until surgical removal. Not so much a test
    drive,more a religious experience.
    
    Marino

    Well, as I stated a few years back I was still looking for the right
    Ferrari.  I can now honestly say i found it and I bought it.  Now I
    just have to go back down to Florida, pick it up and drive it home. 
    
    I guess I better get a radar detector as well.   ;-)
    
    Regards,
    
    JP Lavigne
     

    .161� Well, as I stated a few years back I was still looking for the right
    .161� Ferrari.  I can now honestly say i found it and I bought it.  Now I
    .161� just have to go back down to Florida, pick it up and drive it home. 
    
    Great !!!!!
    
    Now, this is a bit vague. What model, year, number of cylinders, etc...

    I bought a 1978 308 GTB (Color=not red).  It is Charcoal Grey
    (everybody has a red one).  I preferred the lines of the GTB.  It has
    36K miles and I have the full history dating back to it's original
    purchase.  The car is mint and was very well looked after.  It is
    completely original except for the side mirrors.  The original mirrors
    were kept by all the owners so when I want to show it I just have to
    put the old mirrors back on.  It was bought from an authorized Ferrari
    dealer who I have had dealing with for over 3 years.
    
    Can't wait to go for a long drive in the country!!
    
    regards,
    
    JP Lavigne

    When do you take it for a trip in its home country ?
    
    8^))

    I personally hope to get there soon but I doubt if the car will ever
    touch home soil again.  Besides it's new home is Canada now, hopefully it
    will like it here.
    
    Regards,
    
    JP
    I'll try and submit a critique after it's first few weeks in Canada

    Re .161 
    >>Now I just have to go back down to Florida, pick it up and drive it
    >>home.
    
    JP
    
    To Canada? Are'nt you worried about all that mileage going on the car?
    What about servicing? I thought these cars need a lube change at 1,500
    and a major at 6,000. Sounds like you'll need to make pit stops on the 
    way?
    
    Have you considered the hire of a low loader to tow it back?  OK it
    will be a lot slower :-( it may work out cheaper.
    
    Dave

    They recommend an oil change every 5K miles and the major service is
    every 30K miles which it just underwent.  I am planning to have a ball
    on the way home and yes I will put about 1500 miles in a few days.
    
    Since my insurance allows 10KM a year and the car will get garaged by
    Dec 1st I am not worried at all.
    
    regards,
    
    JP 

    Well the trip went off without a hitch.  Sorry Dave i didn't have time
    to stop in Atlanta as I was trying to beat a snow storm in New York.  I
    wasn't stopped once during the entire trip but I went by at least 15
    speed traps (must be the fact the car isn't red).  Contrary to many
    negative comments the car is indeed comfortable on long trips, has
    great air-conditiong and get's good mileage (we averaged a little over
    20MPG).  Had it up to 120MPH and it handles like a charm.  The only
    negative is that the clutch is VERY HEAVY!
    
    Regards,
    
    JP

Glad to hear the trip went well and you're happy with your new toy.  Time to
enroll in a driver's school or two at a local road course and get the feel of
the car.

Dave

	Time for a service too!. Congrats on your aquisition.

	-John

    Thanks for the report JP. 
    
    I've been telling people about the reliability of these things for ages. 
    Don't be frightened by Ferraris, Lamborghini's in terms of engine costs: 
    those engines don't break and when properly adjusted the carbs don't need 
    retuning every 1K miles or whatever. I've heard so many horror stories, 
    mostly from non-owners. 
    
    Now, there is still one thing one has to be careful about: body rust.
    The recent machinery is perfectly OK but italian cars of the 50's, 
    60's, 70's and some of the 80's can rust badly. This is due to italian
    steel factories producing unpredictably poor products at random.
    
    In terms of comfort I share your views: a 308 is reasonably good for
    long distance driving.   

    About the only negative I had is that it was just way too easy to go
    over the 65MPH speed limit!  Other than that it dosen't seem to like
    the cold.  I'll have it out for another week-end or two then it will
    get put away for the winter.
    
    Regards,
    
    JP
    PS  Everyone should be able to have one of these, they really bring out
    a smile when your having a bad day...    :-)

    .172� About the only negative I had is that it was just way too easy to go
    .172� over the 65MPH speed limit!
    
    Never mind. I have similar problems with my Lancia Thema Turbo 16. It's
    difficult to cruise at less than 200kph on motorways.
    
    .172�                              Other than that it dosen't seem to like
    .172�    the cold.
    
    True. These things work better at high temp. How do you find the
    gearchange when cold starting ? How long does it take before you can
    change gears freely ?
    
    About the clutch, I just read reports on the latest Ferraris. They now
    have 'normal' clutch pedals, ie you don't have to have bicycling champion
    leg muscles to operate it ... Good news.

    Acutally I usually wait about 1-2 minutes before taking off and 2nd
    gear is usually OK by then.  I typically run 1st to 3rd for about the
    first 5-10 minutes.  God the clutch is tough but I am getting used to
    it.  I've already logged 2500 trouble free miles and I am about to put
    it away for the winter.  I actually had to scrape the windows this
    morning, but she started just fine.
    
    Regards,
    JP

    Heard on the news this morning:
    French model Lola Ferrari is being sued for 'sullying' the name of the
    motor manufacturer. Lola, with chest measurement of 52 ins. (believed
    to be the fourth largest in Europe), adopted the name last year. She
    has recently had to give up jogging, and can only sleep on her side.
    By way of compensation, she has been offered a deal with another,
    unnamed, motor company to advertise air bags.
    Regards,
    DaveT

    
    re -1
    
    and Ferrari are non to pleased either...
    
    - MARK -

    Well, I have had the car out for several months now.  Over 4K new miles
    and 1 oil change.  Still no problems except for a fast idle which I
    will get looked after when I visit Toronto (Toronto is the only reputable
    dealer nearby that I trust).  Other than that I check the oil and feed
    it gas (Averages between 15-17MPG in the city and about 20-22MPG on the
    Highway.
    
    The car sounds great and look even better.
    
    Regards,
    
    JP