Conference napalm::musclecars

    
    
    	Regarding the building of my 455, I think that I'll tone it down a
    bit. I do want it drivable (but *FAST) and able to pass emmisions (but
    *STRONG*). The challenge is to be able to achive marginal
    streetability; uncompromised power and yet have it not such an animal
    that it is not fun to drive, is going to blow up or take out the drive
    train.
    
    	Question is, how does one design to such criteria? That is the
    question. I'll have to study that one. Any ideas would be appreciated.
    
    	Dave

*How fast?
	Give us a quarter-mile time and speed goal (especially speed).
	14s? 13s? 12s? 100mph? 105? 110?
*In what?
	Body? What is the weight?(include driver) Gearing? Transmission?
	Tires? As much detail as you'd like to muster up.
*In what condition?
	Through the mufflers? Just drive it in and run it? Slicks?

Given some parameters, we can work something out. If your parameters get
really hot, however, I'll be telling you to go the rat-motor route :-).

I believe one might get an honest 400 HP out of a properly built 455, and
around 500 ft/lbs of torque, and still be moderately streetable. No more,
or you'll make major sacrifices in streetability and reliability. Note
that we're talking 500+ HP on the dyno. 400 HP may get you 108-110 mph
in a 3700 lb car, and low 13's with good street tires, assuming proper
gearing and chassis setup. One might also expect to have not-too-terrible
emissions, assuming careful attention to plugs, timing settings, etc.

Forget 790 HP, or whatever. That's for a drag car. Engine life at full
throttle would be measured in seconds (maybe a couple of minutes) in a
combo like that. 400 HP and 500 ft/lbs means a pretty good lump in the idle,
mandatory heavy-duty cooling and driveline components, and plenty of
ongoing TLC. Figure 10 to 20K miles between "freshenings".

Also about 8 mpg - with no racing :-).

Disappointed? Don't be. Note that the SD455 made *less* than 350 HP as
installed in the car, and the old Super Duty 421 in the early '60s made
well under 400 HP installed. These 400s and 500s I'm talking about in a
current car are *big* numbers.

In any event, give us some goals........

Bruce

PS - HAVE YOU BACKED UP YOUR FAVORITE FILE TODAY? :-)

    
    RE .2
    
    Right on Bruce - the key to building a great motor (for it's
    intended purpose) can be summed up in three words.  Research,
    Research, Research.  You need to:
    
    1. Define your mission (Sunday driver, Drag car, Street/Bracket)
       Honesty pays big dividends here - if you plan on idling the
       motor every weekend in long traffic jams at Hampton beach, then
       a high lift, long duration cam is not for you!
    
    2. Get the Manufacturers literature - Pay CLOSE attention to the
       suggested application.  (Take their power gain claims with a grain
       of salt though)  If it's smooth idle, good vacuum, and bottom end
       power you want, then a Comp Cams Magnum 305 ain't the way.  However
       the 280 Magnum might work to the parameters you have established 
       while showing decent power gains.
    
    3. Find a realistic machinist who will reel you in when you get
       a little nutty "Son, maybe that 8-71 isn't right for your bone
       stock 307"
    
    4. Regardless of application, there's no harm in using premium 
       pieces throughout.  ARP rod bolts, moly rings, clevite bearings,
       etc.
    
    5. Take your time, do it right
       
    Tom

    
    
    	Well as far as E.T.s go, I was thinking in the 11 area at about
    125ish. My real goal, seeing as how I didn't have an adequate
    childhood, is to have the highest performance streetable car in these
    parts.
    	The body is naturally the stock '68 Firebird 400 body; they are not
    too heavy I know but I don't have the exact weight at hand. My rear
    used to be 4.56 before it blew, I replaced it with 3.55. Muncie T-20
    tranny. Standard wide profile tires; not slicks. 
    	For the exhaust system, I have been looking at Headman headers and
    I can'l recall the brand of mufflers but they are about 4" with header
    flange on one end and side elbow on the other.
    	I probably will have my Short Block mentor in Tennissee custom
    grind me a cam in the 295/303 ball park.  I may have to also roll-off
    some of my 12:1 compression too.
    	Carb? I don't know. I am still trying to figure that one out.
    Either the Holley 4785 or a Predator are good runners at this time.
    	Also, I'm looking at a Mallory 9000 distributor.
    
    
    	Anyway, these are the types of things that I am looking at.
    
    	Re: -2: The notesconference along with NOTES$LIBRARY has been moved
    to the system disk which has a scheduled backup procedure.
    
    	Dave

    Dave, owning a 1st generation f-body myself I can tell you one thing
    important, these things do not hook up well. In order to dip into the
    11's you're going to have to modify the suspension.
    
    As far as cam selection, I'm running a Crane Cams #284281, with
    duration of 290/300, lift of 485/505. It works good in my application
    and provides more than enough power to boil the hides into oblivion.
    My engine is a 400 bored .030, balanced, squared, 3 angle valve job,
    forged pistons, polished crank, magnafluxed, etc all for $1300 (after
    my 15% jobber discount) and I have a totally streetable engine. 
    
    I, like some others in this file, think you really need to 
    re-evaluate what you want to do and be somewhat practical. I've had
    a marginally streetable car and enjoyed it for about the first month.
    After that it, I decided I went a little overboard, and ended up
    tearing it down since it wasn't enjoyable to drive for any distance.
    
    Chris

    11 second ET's in the quarter mile on standard street rubber - at 125
    mph.  I think its time to take a short trip on the reality bus :-).
    
    You're gonna need slicks (read SLICKS!) with that kind of performance. 
    Anything less would be unsafe - wild and entertaining to watch though
    it may be!
    
    Eric

OK. You're going to need *600* HP and *750* ft/lbs of torque to get
your Bird down into the 11's, figuring on 3800 pounds, with you aboard.
It is *not* possible to build a 455 Pontiac to make that kind of power
while still being streetable, passing emission tests, etc. If you can
believe anything, believe THAT.

However, you *can* cheat.

You should build a stout four-fifty-something to make around 400 Hp and
500 ft/lbs of torque, which might allow you some fair driveability, and
allow some chance of passing emission testing. It might also live awhile.
Then you go with nitrous. Something from NOS or Compucar, maybe, that
comes in a kit marked "250 HP". You wire it up with MSD stuff that will
give you spark retard with the N2O activated, automatic shutoff if you
lose fuel or oil pressure, and a 1st gear cutout switch, 'cause you'll
never get away with transmitting this kind of power in first. I am
assuming 3.55 gears, a 2.20 first gear, and 28" tires with an effective
tread width of 8.5" (obviously, not counting tread gaps). Tire choice
is something from Mickey Thompson, McCreary, Hoosier, etc.

You'll need a 12-bolt rear, and a Centerforce II clutch. Not using the
nitrous in first means the driveshaft and 12-bolt rear will live with
sticky street tires. The Centerforce II is needed to transmit the torque
in the upper gears, without too heavy a clutch pedal. I forget whether the
M20 or the M22 is the "rock crusher" gearbox with the straight-cut gears,
but that's what you'll need.

You'll need electric fuel pumps and half-inch lines to feed the nitrous
kit.

Check with H-O Racing or Nunzi's to see about making this combo live - but
I'll tell you I'm worried. You'll need a forged crank and top-notch rods,
along with forged pistons at about 8.5 to 1 compression. Frankly, I think
you'll spend a *bunch* of money to make a Pontiac live under these
circumstances. Now for the rest of the bad news: The "four-fifty-something"
I mentioned isn't a Pontiac.

Buy a Chevy LS-6. You get all the right stuff that Pontiac *didn't* put in
their street motors, and a complete engine is available new for around
$2700. Then you need to pull it apart, lovingly massage everything, put
in the aforementioned pistons and a hot street roller cam with a Holley 850,
and then plumb your nitrous. You'll want something from Hooker or other
quality header company (*don't* save money here), with 3-inch headpipes
and either a Borla or Flowmaster muffler system, back where the stock
muffler is. You'll save on Excedrin.

Then buy and install a four-point rollbar, cause they won't let you run
without it, and it'll stiffen the chassis enough to improve the bite. You'll
also need slapper bars (at least), with some good Konis or whatever.

There's plenty more, but this is a start.

Bruce

PS - *DO NOT* pinch pennies on any of this. You'll regret it, and you could
get killed. This is serious stuff you're talking about here.

PPS - *EVERYTHING* in this note is important. Read for detail.

    
    Again Bruce is spot on with his advice.
    
    The Pontiac 455 can (witness SD and early 70's HO versions)
    make a *super* street motor.  However, it's forte is not
    high revving horsepower, but exceptional torque at relatively
    lazy RPM's.  This motor was ideal for automatic equipped 
    mid-sizes.  Because of it's undersquare design (Stroke > Bore)
    any attempt to make it rev (which is a necessary condition to
    make the kind of power you are talking about) is * A WASTE OF TIME
    AND MONEY * Even Nunzi (arguably the world's foremost Poncho expert)
    states that the motor is not a "revver" and all his motors are designed 
    to take advantage of the Ponchos torque characteristics.  Please listen 
    to this advice, people are not offering it to be a pain in the *ss, 
    but to keep you from getting burned.  Frankly it's getting more 
    apparent that you have not done your homework on this!
    
    Tom                    

Actually, Tom, I believe that the combo I outlined wouldn't necessarily
need to rev really high to make power. It's just that I *know* the Chevy
has the really good crank and rods, and the heads flow really well right
out of the box, and *everything* is heavy duty, including oil pump, 7/16"
rod bolts, etc.

I'd worry that the Pontiac would break a crank, or do other serious
detrimental things when making that kind of power.

The model I used (using QUARTER software) said 450 ft/lbs of torque at
3000 rpm, 500 at 4000, and 420 at 5000, where the peak power of 400 HP
occurs. That might be do-able with the Pontiac, and may be 50-75 short of
what a well-prepared rat motor could make, in both power and torque. The
rat would also make peak HP maybe 500 rpm higher, as well.

I used a 50% power adder in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, to represent the really
serious nitrous kit. Using it in 1st blows the tires away.

Result? Around 11.7 @ 125, with the tires, gears and weight mentioned.

I admit I was surprised. I thought the speed would be there, but the ET
was a half-second or so quicker than I expected.

Bruce

      RE .7  The M22 has the square cut gears and the nickname
    "stonecrusher".  I believe the M20 is an early M21.
    
    Rich

    The M-22 is called the ROCK CRUSHER. I think it got the nickname from
    the noise it made during operation. It is a late 60's early 70's
    tranny. The M-22 is basicly the same as the M-21 just beefed up for
    abuse.
    The M-20 is a wide ratio transmission used in applications designed for
    higher geared rear ends. Ratios down to around 3.55 is probably the
    lowest gearing you can go on these.
    
    The M-21 is a close ratio tranny used for cars geared 3.73 and lower.
    I think the M-20 came out first but either were pretty common.
    
    
    Rod.

    
    
    	Well..... OK then!
    
    	Regarding not doing my homework; That is what I am now doing.
    
    	Frankly, I have been considering curtailing my specs a bit more and
    even thinking of another block, say 428, 421 or even 400. The jury is
    still out and that is why I am still taking suggestions. The only part
    of the engine now in my posession is the heads, a set of nicely ported
    "12"s. On a 455, that would yield over 12:1 swept volumetric
    compression ratio (a bit much). I am not contrary to considering a 428.
    I will have to do some analysis on that one. If I do do a 455, I will
    have to cam it to roll off some of the dynamic CR.
    	The original thought is going with such a CR on a 455 was born out
    of a desire to get good performance at 6000' elevation. While this may
    be true, the car would be totally undriveable at sea-level. And this is
    the exact CR that my builder in Tennissee uses. Of course, none of his
    cars are streetible.
    	The "12" heads that I have have a 72cc chamber and came off a '70
    RAIII 400. I suppose that putting them on a 421 or 428 may, from a CR
    aspect, be a good blend of high compression and reality.
    	Forget the specs that I mentioned before if they are offensive. 
    
    	Bottom line is that I am still 'testing the waters' as to really
    what I am interested in building. 
    
    	I have time. Don't have money, so I can take all the time I want to
    figure this one out.
    
    	Dave

    Dave,
    
        If ou don't have the money then you are in trouble! I know from
    experience... Pontiac motors are expensive to build. (if you do it
    right) The performance you are after requires a different set of rods.
    I suggest Crower. Rods are the weakest link in Pontiacs. Also, if you
    plan on going the 421, 428, 455 route then you have to use the torque
    characteristics of the motor. These engines have a 3.25 in. main
    journal and are hard to keep oiled. The high volume oil pump you
    mentioned in the old file is the way to go. Most of the street motors
    with large journals won't rev over 6000 rpm and don't need to. It's
    just a waste. I've talked to some guys who have BUILT their motors and
    run chromed cranks, crower rods, cloyes timing chains, roller rockers,
    3/8 pushrods, solid lifters, and still don't rev over 6700 rpm. Their
    cams just run out over that. The small journal (3.00 in.) 400's have
    the same bore as the 428. The 428 has the longer stroke. I think it is
    4.12 bore. You stated a desire to get into the 11's at 125mph. Well
    first junk the 4-speed! Get you a BUILT 400 turbo. Get you another set
    of 4.56 gears, buy a ford nine inch rear end or the dana 60. Cut your
    trunk up and put in wheel tubs for the drag slicks. Keep the 12:1
    compression. Go with an MSD ignition like Bruce suggests. I've heard    
    too many bad things about Mallory! Like .5 suggests, the suspension
    will be a big part. I don't think you will need 600 hp to get into the
    11's on a 3400 - 3500lb. car with this setup. A lot of Pontiac racers
    run in the 400 to 450 hp range with these results. (mid 10's to 11's)
    BUT... Don't plan on driving this on the street. If it were me and I
    have gone this route... Build you a 428-455 with 10.25 to 11.00
    compression, forget the solid lifters and get some crane or rhodes
    antipumpup, buy a cam that runs out at around 6100 to 6200 rpm (some-
    what radical), roller rockers, a holley "worked" dominator manifold or
    a torker, a 850 holley double pumper with electric fuel pump, either a
    400 turbo or a M-21,22 tranny (the M-20 won't work well with the lower
    gears), 2 1/2 exhaust with headers and dumps with flowmasters.(borlas
    are expensive aren't they!) Get you some steet slicks and see what that
    does for you with 3.73 or 4.11 gears. A vacuum canister for brakes. 
    Oh yeah, 90-10 shocks (or extremely worn out ones) on thefront. Sounds
    like you're pretty set on the heads. Their are many manyother ways to 
    go on this... these were just a few that I was thinking of.
    So if you even want a semi streetable motor be happy with possible mid
    12's and low 13,s. If you can get 400 hp be happy! It gets old quick
    having to pop that hood every two days and do major tweeking to keep
    your hoss running properly!
    
    Rod.
    
    Rod. 

The specs are not "offensive". It's just that we've been trying to get
a good handle on what you want to do, and then offer free bench-racing
advice. You know, you get what you pay for :-).

I think we can be sure that you want to go as fast as possible, while still
maintaining streetability and emissions at reasonable levels.

As Tom said, Pontiacs are torquers, so that means a 455 block, because more
cubes = more torque. I don't know what "swept volumetric compression ratio"
means, but if I assume it means compression ratio, then 10:1 may be acceptable
up in your rarified air, and 104+ when you visit the flatlanders. 72cc is
pretty tiny, but flat (or even dished) pistons in your short block should
get you the compression ratio you want. You might also consider using a
slightly thicker head gasket if your piston options are more limited than I
think, but go easy here, since you want minimal deck height and really
tight squish area, to minimize your octane needs with whatever CR you end
up with. BTW, your heads should have hardened exhaust valve seats so you
can run on unleaded.

Tom probably has a better sense of this than I do, but I think a Comp Cams
280 might be a bit more stick than I'd be happy with on the street. However,
come to think of it, reading between the lines tells me you'd probably like
the lopey idle, and it's not really too wild given all those cubes. I'd
personally go with a 270, or a grind from some other manufacturer that's in
that ballpark. I'd stay far away from anything the Tennessee guy comes up
with, since he's into race motors. Call Nunzi for the right advice.

Get the highest quality headers you can find. Trust me, they will be barely
acceptable from a user's standpoint, as opposed to cheap headers, which will
be totally unacceptable. Get them coated inside and out by the HPC folks in
Tulsa (I think). This will make the headers last, and dramatically reduce
underhood temperatures. Forget the 3" headpipes. Go with 2 1/2", with mandrel
bends if your budget will stand it. Use a crossover of at least 2 1/4". Nunzi
will tell you where to place it. The Flowmaster would still be workable, but
so will a number of other aftermarket mufflers. You want the least backpressure
you can get while saving on Excedrin, in order to "save" horsepower otherwise
lost. 2 1/4" inch tailpipes will be OK, but if you can fit 2 1/2", do it.

I still prefer a Centerforce clutch, but forget the "II". Go with the standard
"Dual Friction" unit, to save on bent firewalls and bursitis in your knee
from the heavy pedal pressure that comes free with "race" clutches.

I'd go with something around 750 cfm for carburetion, 'cause this rig should
never see 6000 rpm. Your shift points will likely be around 5500. I know that
others will see it differently (bigger is better, right?), so how about one of
those Holley spreadbores that are rated at 800 cfm. That's probably a good
compromise, and it will fit standard Pontiac manifolds. It will also offer
really good throttle response. I had a 650 cfm version on a 400 awhile back,
and really liked it. Forget the Predator. That's primarily a race carb, and
you don't need all that air, anyway (650 cfm at 6000 rpm and 80% volumetric
efficiency). Stay with carb heat. It might cost you 5 HP at most, and you'll
love the driveability.

Any quality distributor will do, with maybe 8-10 degrees static advance, and
26-28 centrifugal, beginning at 1000-1100 rpm, and all in by 2800 or so.
Maybe 36 degrees total. Use a distributor with vacuum advance by all means
(for driveability), limiting that to something in the 17-20 degree range. I
like MSD stuff, but the Delco HEI is tough to beat for a street motor. Use
either a magnetic or infrared pickup, to save on maintenance and increase
dwell with a good street coil.

Other folks who know Pontiac parts better than I do can tell you which intake
is best, what crank, etc.

You'll love it.

Bruce

    
    Bruce,
    
    I wasn't recommending the Comp 280 for this application, merely
    illustrating my point with a hypothetical example.
    
    Dave,
    
    There's lots of good advice here for you to think about - I'm
    glad you are back to the research stage.  I wouldn't necessarily
    give up on the 455, like I mentioned it can make for a super street
    performer.  It's just with all those *CUBES* on tap, plus the long
    stroke this motor will make loads of nice useable power and torque
    even with relatively mild camming.  Therefore you get a nice, user
    friendly motor that is more than adequate for that pony car chassis.
    When I was doing my Cobrajet I had lots of grand ideas of how to make 
    the motor turn 7 grand and pump out ungodly power.  However, people more
    knowledgable than me suggested I reconsider.  The CJ was potent enough
    in stock trim they said, but it's real beauty was the way the CJ made
    power reliably and streetably.  So I built the motor to take advantage
    of this - mild hydraulic cam, stock compression, stock intake, but
    with premium quality internals.  
    
    Tom 
    
    
    Call Nunzi, he's your man on this.....

    
    
    	Thanks, guys. I'll consider everything you have said.
    
    	By the way, I saw an 'interesting' deal in the paper this evening,
    "Pontiac 400 with trans - $285.00". So I called on it. It's a YE block
    code out of a '67 Grand Prix. The guy could only find a "6","143" and a
    "G" on the heads. This ad got my attention.
    
    	Who has the specs on the '67 YE 400? is it a 2 or 4 bolt? Would
    this be a good way to go or should I continue looking for my 428/455?
    
    	I'm going to go by this evening (wednesday) and have a look at it
    and would appreciate a little input prior to looking at it much less
    making an offer on it.
    
    	Thanks!
    
    	Dave

    Dave,
    
        I've got one at the house! It's been a while since I looked up
    everything on the motor but it should be a 325 hp 400. The good thing
    about the motor is that the shield inside the oil pan runs the length
    of the crank unlike the shorter ones of later years. I think it's a 2
    bolt but don't hold me to that. The heads aren't special at all. They
    have the small valves and the small closed chambers won't allow for
    cutting to recieve the big 2.11/1.66-77 valves. The heads can't be cut
    and be able to run 93 octane either. I cut my heads .030 and had
    serious detonation on a 400. That is standard bore and stroke. It's not
    worth that much unless you plan on using the short block and a
    different set of heads. The motor of choice in '67 is the GTO motor
    with the "670" heads. These are the large valved (2.11/1.77) heads.
    
    Rod.

    
    	I do have different heads; ported '70 "12"s. They were originally
    for a 400 and would go nicely with this one I suppose. Regardless of
    which engine I get, I will be using these heads.
    
    	Dave

    
    
    	Well, I have thought long and hard about this 400 and have come to
    the conclusion that I am not interested. I want to get a 455 or
    alternately a 428. If I get a 428, I will probably put my 12s straight
    on; if I get a 455, I will try to increase the chamber size a bit with
    a thicker head gasket or special pistons.
    
    	I would like to have the option to use service station pump gas too
    and not have to go to the area's drag strip to buy gas.
    
    	My new specs are for the mid 12s at around 485 HP or so. Perhaps
    less than that in performance. I would like to get at least 450HP and
    have it fully streetible.
    
    	If anyone knows where I can pick up a 455 or 428 for a *GOOD*
    price, please let me know.
    
    	Dave 

    
    
    	Yea, I was wondering about the streetibility of the Predator, it
    didn't look very good in that department. Taking into account the
    following formula:
    
    	
    			Cubes x RPM
    		CFM = 	-------------
    			     3456
    
    	I figure that a 455 doing 6000 RPM needs 790 CFM. Of course this
    assumes 100% volumetric efficiency. And by the way, "swept volumetric
    compression ratio" refers to the actual ratio of displacement vs. the
    chamber volume @TDC.
    
    	I was looking at perhaps the Holley 4785 850 dp. Anyone have any
    experiance with these or would recommend another carb in the 800
    ballpark?
    
    	Also, I thought I'd use a TorkerII and mill it a bit to open up the
    plenum and make sure that all the runners perfectly matched the ports
    in the heads.
    
    	MSD or HEI distributor eh? OK. I was kinda wondering about the
    quality of Mallory.
    
    	Cam. Doesn't Crane make a RAIII clone cam? How would this work out?
    Just wondering about the 'conservative' grinds that Competition Cams
    puts on theirs. I beleive it's the 284802 I'm refering to. Also, how
    about the Lunati 00071LK? The crane is a 290 x .454, the Lunati is a 
    292 x .490.
    
    	How does this all sound? Ideas?
    
    
    	Dave

Dave,

I don't know how inexpensive of a 455 you are looking for but, there's been one 
advertised in the last 2 Thrifty Nickles (Colo Spgs edition).  It is supposedly
recently rebuilt for $600.  

As for an intake, with that wild an engine, you may want to see if Edelbrock 
makes a Victor Jr. for that application.  The tests that I've read indicate that
it makes more hp and a little more torque that many of the "street" intakes out
there.

Mark

      A friend of mine had a Ram Air III cam in his 400 Poncho.
    From the horsepower you want I would say it is a bit too
    mild for your application.  At the time he built the engine
    the cam was still available from GM (about 1985).
    
    Rich

    
    
    	So I see an ad in the paper this weekend for a 455 Pontiac with
    auto trans for $350. Gotta check this one out I said to myself. The
    only problem is that when I got over there, it didn't look very much
    like a Pontiac and said 'Oldsmobile' across one of the valve covers.
    The lady who was selling it said "Well, it's a big 455 of some kind"
    
    	Oh well. Good price, wrong engine.
    
    	Dave

    
    	Got my good deal on a 455!! And a TH400 too! Went and bought a real
    bomber '71 Bonneville. Hardly want to part the thing, it really gets
    the stares from everyone who is incredulous that it runs. Got the whole
    pile of iron for $300.00. Not bad eh?
    
	The block code is YC and the heads are 96's.  My Pontiac racer's 
    handbook suggests that this is a 4-bolt main engine but what I wonder is
    if it's a 4-bolt or just drilled for 4-bolt (I suspect the latter).

	And the car has a nice set of Rally wheels, A/C, P/S and a bunch of
    other salvagable items. I figured I'd strip what I want, put an ad in
    the paper for others to come over and pick it over and when that's done,
    call the hulk hauler.
    
    	Anyway, I'm all ready to go with the build now. When I get the
    money, I'll pull the engine, tranny and get to work. And I may even be 
    tempted to go with the TH400 over my Muncie. I remenber a previous note 
    that said that the TH400 would be tougher? Is this true? Anyway, it 
    would save me some effort in having to assemble all of the peices to get 
    a clutch setup.
    

    	Dave

    Get ready to cut your drive shaft. I think the tranny you got was the
    long shaft (tail) type. (Though... I have been known to be wrong)
    
    Rod.

      Yes, the tranny should be a long tail, and in a Firebird that will
    make for quite a short driveshaft.
    
    Rich

    
    
    	Yea, I figgerd. Anyway, I only have one driveshaft to modify as
    opposed to two when I put the 400 Chev and TH350 into my Landcruiser...
    
    	What is the popular opinion? Should I go Muncie or TH400?
    
    	Dave

    
    
    	I'm getting ready to build my 455. Does anyone have a list of
    Pontiac 'Gurus' nationwide that one can call for advise? I'm planning
    some mighty expensive and exotic mods and specs and would like to
    locate at least two individuals who live and breath Pontiac engines
    daily to bounce questions off.
    
    	Dave

    Try HO Racing
    
    or  Purely PMD
    
    or  Nunzi
    
    or  Pete McCarthy (if you can reach him)
    
    or  High Performance Injuns 
    
    Rod.

    Dave,
    
    Save your hard earned cash and stuff a BBC in your Poncho, paint it
    green and laugh all the way to the finish line.
    
    Don Berry

    
    Ya know Dave, Don's idea has it's merits.......
    For all the money you are destined to pour into that Poncho,
    you could spend under $3k and have a GM LS-6 or LS-7.
    Why not????
    
    Tom

    I have to agree..if it's speed your looking for a Chevy engine in the
    Poncho works just fine...even small blocks make 'em fly pretty good!
    
    /tb/

    
    
    	Thanks for the notion guys, but a 'Cheviac' (yuk) is what I am
    presently trying to get away from. For me to put a Chevy engine in my
    Firebird would create the same feeling in my gut that it would in a
    Chevy purist putting an AMC engine in his Camaro! Not a pretty picture!
    Besides I already have the 455 core and my PP hi-comp heads all ready
    to bolt on. 
    
    	I think that when I finally post my ETs in this conference, it will
    be understood, in addition to the reason mentioned above, why I am
    putting the mightiest Pontiac engine in my Pontiac Firebird.
    
    	Dave

    
    
    	The build is on. This weekend, I am going to be tearing the 455
    down in prepairation for taking it to the machine shop next week.
    Taking in the TH400 too. Got most all the parts for the build and I am
    ready. Still waiting on my polished, forged and heat-treated rods from 
    the boy in Tennessee though...
    
    
    	Dave

    
    Does anyone know what torque value I should use on the valve covers
    of my '67 GTO 400?
    
    Any info. would be appreciated.
    
    Rich

    
    	I would think that 12-15"lbs would do the trick. If you'd like me
    to look it up, I could do that tonite.
    
    	Dave

    
    Dave,
    
    If you have a manual and wouldn't mind looking it up it would help.
    
    I'm going to buy the gaskets tonight and want to put them on this
    weekend.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Rich

    
    
    	From the book...
    
    	Bolts, rocker arm cover -
    
    	Final torque  	8ft-lbs
    	Increment	4ft-lbs
    	Lubrication	Dry
    
    
    	Good luck, Dave

    
    Dave,
    
    Thanks, I'll do it this weekend.
    
    Rich

    
    
    	Hey Dave,
    
    	I found a 455 Super Duty block for $450.
    
    	
    	Hammer.

    
    
    	Where's it located?! 
    
    	Year and block code?
    
    	Casting #?
    
    	Bare block with caps?
    
    	Might be interested!!!
    
    
    
    	Dave

    
        As I was told, it's a 1974.  I don't have any other numbers on
    	it (yet).  Not a big concern since it'll probably go into my '67.	
    
    	My contact is trying to find the sellers name and phone number.
    	"It's in one of these piles of paper here".
    
    	Location?  If things go good, it'll be in my garage after this
    	weekend.
    
    
    	Hammer.	

    
    
    	Well... Did you get the SD?
    
    	Dave

    
    	Nope.
    
    	Seems the guy has moved.  My contact has a friend in the town
    	where this guy was/is (some rinky-dink town in NW Utah) who
    	believes he knows where the guy moved to so we're trying to
    	track him down.
    
    	In the mean time, I seem to be spending my money on other things.
    	Would you want the guys name & number, Dave, if we find him?  I'm
    	changing my mind on the deal 'cause if I get it, I'll go broke
    	on more parts, ya know?
    
    	Hammer.

    
    
    	Yea, let me know of you guys find the ol' boa
    
    

    
    	Will do.  Let me know if there's anything else ya'd like.  My
    	connection in Salt Lake finds some incredible stuff out there!
    	Guess the story is that people from the area never move so the
    	cars they buy usually stay around.  That's where we picked up
    	the '69 Judge Convertible (a mere two thousand smackers).     8-)
     	When we head out (soon) we're picking up a '67 Ram Air GTO.
    
    

    
    	Re: -1
    
    	Want list:
    
    	'58-'62 Forged 389 rods
    	4-bolt 455 caps
    	Big-valve heads
    
    	Dave

    
    
    	Hi Dave, I forwarded your wish list.
    
    	Our latest find:  1970 GTO 455 HO Convertible.  $2K - $2.5K
    	  The guy isn't in a hurry to sell (not advertising) so we're
    	  looking into picking it up.  Right now it's depending on my
    	  job future in the next couple of weeks.  Keep ya posted!
    
    
    	Hammer.

    
    
     Gee,
    
     Wish I could find deals like that in MA.  When I goto Florida in
    September I will look for something good.  Must be a Big Block...
    and a Fastback.... a 1968 Dodge Charger fastback or a GTO HO or an
    Oldsmobile 1970 400 HO.
    
    /Bob
    

    
    We find most of our stuff in Salt Lake City.  Apparently, people
    simply don't move out of the city.  So the people that bought these
    cars many moons ago are still living there and have the cars burried
    in garages, barns, out back, etc.  This is a partial list of the
    Pontiacs we've found (the ones that I can remember):
    	'69 Judge Convertible
    	'71 Judge Convertible
    	'67 GTO Ram Air  (did you know these came with 4.33 rearends?!)
    	'70 455 HO Convertible
    	'69� TA (Still available for $6K)
    	'63 Catalina 421 SD race car
    	loads of firebird convertibles (no '67 Ram Airs yet)
    	several '74 SD TA's
    
    Pretty crazy.
    
    	Hammer.

    
    
    	Oh ya, and several hardtop Judges.

    
    
    	Ever since I replaced the California Red glass packs on my 'Bird
    with the Walker Dynomax mufflers (and thereby being able to hear
    something other than mega-noise) I noticed a 'tick-tick-tick' coming
    from the engine at idle speeds. It seems to be there too at higher
    speeds but is drowned out by the increases engine noise. It sounds like
    a lifter to me, it's about at cam speed. 
    	
    	Question is, how do I isolate this noise? Should it be of concern?
    I've tried the screwdriver in the ear method but I still cannot
    triangulate on the exact position of the noise source. I was thinking
    that if a lifter is inopertive, it may be blocking the oil flow up its
    push rod. Haven't checked this out yet though.
    
    	I could always tear into the top of the engine and replace all the
    lifters but what would I do then if the noise persisted?
    
    	Ideas?
    
    	Dave

    re. -1
    
    it's probably just a header leak.
    
    mark

    
    
    	Yea, the wife suggested that too. I'll have to check it closer. I
    did recently replace the exhaust gaskets because I had 3 blowouts...
    However, the noise sounds very metalic.
    
    	Dave

    Dave, an exhaust leak right at the head can sound almost exactly like a
    ticking lifter. I found this out the hard way after changing out what
    I thought was a bad lifter on a Jeep I had many years ago. (Two days
    after installing a new cam and lifters). :-( The leak was on the
    bottom of the port so it wasn't noticable. I found it by accident when
    removing the exhaust manifold for another chore.
    
    Harry
    

    I second Harry on checking for exhaust leaks first. I too went thru
    the lifter routine only to find the header leaking. 
    
    Chris
    

    I'll also vote for a header leak. We run a 562 alum. big block in our
    puller and we had a small split in the header that sounded like bad
    news @ 8300 rpm. Even over the bark of thte open headers.
    
    TMW....Jim who made short work of the cracked header......

    Dave,
    
    You didn't say which side of the engine the noise was coming from. If
    it is coming from the right side you might have a bad fuel pump return
    spring. I have a friend who changed all the lifters in his SBC only to
    find a bad fuel pump. I may not be easy to tell where the noise is
    comming from. 
    
    my $.02
    
    db
    

    
    
    	OK, I'll check it out. I did a bit this morning, ran a rag all the
    way around both header gasket areas and was unable to detect any leaks.
    The noise seems to be coming from inder the valley pan...
    	
    	But.. I'll check it out more thoroughly, tighten the header bolts
    and listen & feel. I'll let you all know...
    
    	Dave

    
    
    	re: last few.
    
    	I think it's a lifter. I've been told to pull the valve covers,
    start the engine, and one at a time turn each valve adjust nut in 1/4
    turn and back out to locate the weak lifter. Once I fine the weak
    lifter, then what? Will a weak lifter hurt an engine?
    
    	I've also been told that I ought to be running a 3/4 turn on the
    nuts instead of 1/2 turn. When I checked the valve to piston clearance
    with a solid lifter during assembly, I had .100" clearance.
    
    	I don't really want to pull the top of the engine apart unless its
    life threatening.
    
    	Dave

Adjusting the lifters one at a time is good advice, although the 1/2 vs
3/4 turn issue is not at all critical, and won't affect valve lift, duration,
or valve-to-piston clearance. It's just that 3/4ths of a turn gives you more
latitude as valve train components wear before you start getting lifter noise
due to getting a clearance - like solid lifters.

There's a reasonable chance that adjusting the "weak" lifter 1/2 or 3/4ths of
a turn down from where it's tapping will eliminate the problem entirely, since
it's possible you have gotten some clearance in that valvetrain assembly, due
to wear, and possibly because that particular lifter was adjusted 1/8th turn
or some such during initial assambly - kinda like the hot dogs do it
intentionally, to minimize pump-up problems.

Assuming it really is a bad lifter, then pulling the intake manifold and valley
cover (to replace the lifter) is a snap on Pontiacs, though not having to do
*anything* is clearly preferable :-).

Bruce

PS - Have you used a pipe to try and locate the noise source? A short section
of pipe (such as a vacuum cleaner extension), placed with one end by your ear,
and the other end roaming around the running engine, may make it easier for you
to zero in on location of the noise.

    
    	I've tried the long screwdriver method. The ticking seems to be
    coming from everywhere rather than anywhere in particular. One can hear
    it pretty well underneath the car too. 
    
    	I'm going to have to get around to doing the 3/4 turn down trick
    with the engine running.
    
    	Dave

    Bruce's suggestion should help (3/4 turn)..The pontiac big block heads
    are known for not being able to hold a valve setting especially if you
    have any kind of lift..I used polly locks to solve the problem
    otherwise about once a month adjustment time..The polly locks are cheap
    insurance for the problem..I gave a set away a while back to a person
    in this conference but you should be able to pick up a set for just a
    few $$$..
    
    Jim
    

    
    Dave,
    
    If you are using 7/16" studs, I have a set you can have for the cost of
    shipping.
    
    Let me know.
    
    db
    
    

    
    
    	Thanks, Don. I do have 7/16 studs and sent you some VAXmail.
    
    	Dave

    
    
    	Well, as an update to .52, we'll soon know if it's a lifter. 
    
    	I'm tired of pouring $1.80/gallon gasoline into a 7MPG car. I have
    to run 94 octane leaded as a minimum and sometime that knocks too. I've
    been fantisizing about getting lower compression heads so that I could
    actually run pump gas and maybe....Unleaded? (What a concept!)
    
    	I have tried to sell my #12 heads without success. So Sunday, I
    called Jim Butler in Tennessee and told him my plight and if he had any
    ideas about trades. After a while he said he'd take my #12s in on
    strait-across trade for a set of rebuilt built 7K3s. The 12s I have now
    are a 72cc chamber and 7K3s are a 96cc chamber. He said he'd fix them up 
    like the 12s I have now complete with a port job, springs, 7/16 studs and 
    filled riser tubes.
    
    	So I'm in the process of tearing the 455 down and then I'll be
    sending Jim the 12s. When I get the 7K3s and put the engine back
    together, I'll be putting in a new set of lifters.
    
    	The 12s are more valuable than the 7K3s. But the 12s are giving me
    12.44:1 compression ratio which does require some expensive gas.
    Luckily I live at 6000 feet so I can eek by with 94 octane. If I was at
    sea level, I'd probably have to run 108 octane or so. Forget extended
    drives anywhere, even here.
    
    	The 7K3s will give me 9.33:1. A little nicer compression ratio for
    fuel affordability. They even have hardened valve seats!
    
    	Altogether, not too bad for a cash-free transaction!
    
    
    	Dave 
    
    	P.S. - Last call for the 12s...
    

Dave,

Are you changing out the cam as well?  If I remember correctly, you had a rather
nasty cam in that 455.  Typically, "big" cams require high compression to work
properly.  Dropping the compression 3 points is quite a bit and I wonder if you 
will be overcammed with the compression drop.

Mark (who wishes that he had more compresion) 

    
    
    	I think it'll be just fine. Let's put it this way - we'll find out;
    I am not re-camming.
    
    	Dave

    
    
    	I got the 7K3's on a couple of days ago and so far, everything is
    working out OK. The cam works fine but I still have that nagging
    'tick-tick' in the engine after replacing all the lifters. I'm thinking 
    it may well be a normal noise of the high-performance mechanical fuel 
    pump I have or an abnormal noise from the distributor. Oh well, doesn't 
    seem to be hurting anything.
    
    	Going to 9.33 C/R from 12.44 did cost me a little power. But the engine
    doesn't sound as angry as it did before and will probably last longer
    as a result to say nothing of my ability now to actually go to a normal
    gas station for fuel. And maybe even put ..... Unleaded fuel in!
    

    
    Dave,
    
    I know you've been shagging the tick-tick for a while, apparently
    without success.  Have you checked thoroughly for exhaust leaks? 
    Perhaps you've got a warped header flange, or pinhole leak in one of
    your primary tube welds or at the collector.  A fuel pump ordinarily 
    shouldn't tick - neither should the distributor.  Have you ascertained
    the "speed" of the noise?  Is it half engine speed? Full engine speed?
    Half speed noises are usually cam/valvetrain related, whereas full
    speed noises are associated with the reciprocating assembly.  
    
    I once had a mysterious tick in my 428CJ and found out it was a bent
    dipstick.  The factory windage tray was directing the end of the
    dipstick towards the crankshaft - resulting in a loud engine speed tick
    I attributed initially to a bottom end problem.
    Hope it works out.
    
    Tom
    

    
    
    	The ticking is about 1/2 engine speed. Its weird but I don't hear
    it when cranking, only when the engine is idling slowly - between 400
    and 900 RPM. One way I've solved it in the past is to turn my idle
    speed screw to 1000RPM or so!
    
    	Dave

A lifter that's bleeding down too quickly at lower rpm?
Matt

    
    	I just got done replacing all the lifters. That's what I thought.
    Noise is unchanged.
    
    	Dave