Conference vmszoo::rc

Dave - I tried to copy the predator manual and got the following:

FTSV Job 1809 (FTSV_1809) finished at 09:34:18
COPY UPSENG::SPITFIRE:[WALTER.PUBLIC]PREDATOR_MAN_*.PS DISK$USER3:[RATASKI]*.*
%RMS-E-PRV, insufficient privilege or file protection violation

-TomR-

	Shoot, I did it again. I put the file in the [.public] directory 
	but forgot to open the protection. You can copy it now.

	Dave

    I saw a copy of the plans at lunch. Very nice job. Too bad the plane is
    such a dog (I don't want my competitors to KNOW how good it really is
    8^) I guess we'll all have to build them heavy with the stab hanging on
    by a prayer? (This is how Dave describes the plane he won the CRRC HGL
    contest with a couple of weekends ago)
    
    Gee, with an arm exercise program over the winter, we can ALL fly like
    Dave.

    >> 8^) I guess we'll all have to build them heavy with the stab hanging on
    >> by a prayer? 
    
    Ummmm, I didn't BUILD it that way. It just sort of... GOT that way.
    

    But we want ours to perform as well so we have to build to what you've
    evolved to.

    
    This note couldn't have come at a better time. I've got all my wood.
    Just got a new scroll saw, Lamar has my $5 "plan" dollars, and the
    desire is there. It's just that damn World Series that keeps me from
    starting !  And a bit of carbon fiber.....
    
    This will be my first scratch built from plans so I would imagine that
    things might be a bit slow. But with Lamar 5min away from my house and
    this note, how can I can wrong ?? The resourses are here !!
    
    George

Just in case somebody is wondering what the heck a Predator is...

Dave designed and has been flying this plane all summer.  Every
contest he goes to he has a crowd around this plane and starts fielding
questions.  Part off the cause is Dave has a heck of a good throw
and is a very good flyer.  But after the awsome launch - what then.

This is a good HLG.  Better than most.  In the right hands almost
unbeatable.  Dave routinely does a loop in hand launch.  I've seen
Jim do the same with his predator.

It flys great, it's light, and it looks right.  If it was glass and foam
and indestructible I might rate it as the best HLG available.  But
given the constraint of built up wing and balsa fuselage technology
and the cost of $5.00 for plans...

I've got a workshop full of kits and plans and I need another project like
I need a hole in the head - but I just sent my $5.00 in for a set.

I'm afraid if I don't crank one out by spring I will be the only one
at the field without one.  Kinda like showing up at the Gremlin
combat fun flys with a Aeromaster - yes the Aeromaster flys but
it ain't the same.

P.S.  I don't benefit by the proceeds - just want to acknowledge what I
      believe to be a real good deal on a real good set of plans.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    Re: -.1
    
    WOW, what great hype, Kay!  Can I clip a few of those quotes and throw
    them on the cover of the shipping box?
    
    By the way, last week at the CRRC auction a member of the club brought
    in his Predator (not for sale) which he had recently completed. He
    added some personal touches to the design, like pull-pull rudder, a
    built up hatch (rather than single block of balsa), and removable wing
    tip panels. It felt a bit heavy to me for thermal flying, but he took
    it down to Cape Cod the weekend before and flew with the Northeast
    Sailplane nuts on the dunes. He said it flew very nicely on the slope
    and was very fast (I'm not surprised). If anyone wants to know what
    kind of lunacy goes on when the NSP guys show up, just read the new NSP
    catalog. There's a page in there on their last expedition to the Cape,
    and it had me rolling on the floor.
    
    Dave
    

    I want a Predator. Would it be possible to post an address where we
    poor souls who live west of the Conn. River, may send our money?
    
    My wallet bulges and throbs in anticipation. Thank you.
    
    Terry

I'd like to add my two cents about the Predator as well. I built 3 fuselages
and two wings for the Predator so far. My first predator fuse met an untimely
end in my workshop one day. It lost an argument with a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" 
particle board. The second fuse is still flyable, but came out too tail heavy.
I had to add 3 ounces of lead in the nose to balance it out! It still flew
great at 23 ounces. Fuse #3 should be completed this weekend and I've been
keeping a close eye on the weight. I'm also building a new wing for this fuse
as well. My original wing weighed 9 ounces fully covered and used d tube
construction. It is one tough wing and has survived many wing tip cartwheels!
For the new wing, I plan to stick with what the plans call for(sheeted on top
from spar to LE.)

The best memory of flying the Predator is not of flying my own, but flying
Dave's ship in Acton one day. I think it was the second or third time out with
mine and I was having a little trouble getting it trimmed out properly. Dave
came to the field that day with his and helped sort mine out. After a flight
or two on mine, he says "Wanna try mine?"  Sure, I liked to see how a well built
Predator handles. Dave offers to hand launch and gives me the TX. He launhes me right
into a thermal and I end up with a 5+ minute flight. It was great and the look
on Dave's faces was unforgetable! 


-Lamar

    Greetings,
    
     I dont have the document with me but I think there
    might be a couple of typo's in the instruction guide; 
    please correct me if i'm wrong.
    
    1) Cap strip material is listed as wrong size, should be 
       1/16 x 3/16
    
    2) material list only calls for one piece of balsa sheet
       for the fuselage side...should be 2?
    
    I also have a question on the instructions that I was hoping that
    someone could help me with. Its the procedure for determining the
    appropriate length to cut the inner wing upper spar to length;
    the process which calls for the use of a ruler. I must be missing
    something basic, but I am confused on how this works??
    
    Any suggestions/elaborations would be appreciated.
    
     Finally,
    
    I have compiled a total material list which is very usefull when
    purchasing the balsa/ply etc. It lists every part in total
    qty.  If anyone is interested let me know.
    
    Looking forward to building very soon.
    
    Mike
        

    You can get both fuselage sides out of a 3x36 piece of 3/32" balsa. I
    think Dave was trying to specify the wood required for each major
    subsection so we could build replacement units (a new fuselage takes
    this, new wing takes this)
    
    You did a nice job on the plans, Dave. I got mine at lunch. Thanks.

   
>    You did a nice job on the plans, Dave. I got mine at lunch. Thanks.
    
    Now if I can only find Lamar I'll have mine before the end of the
    weekend.....

Plans? What plans?? I don't know nuthin' bout no plans, Ms. Scarlett!


:^) :^) ;^)

Don't worry George, I'll get them to you this weekend. 

As a side note, it was an interesting lunch today down at Acton. Seems
a certain somebody, "scored a goal" with a certain  borrowed "battered up" 
Predator. Sorry, I couldn't resist ............ I'll leave the explanation
up to the others. ;^)

-Lamar

    I've got several issues to respond to in this note:
    
    1. Address - Take your hard earned cash from your "throbbing" (?)
    wallets and send to:
    
    		Dave Walter
    		425 Main St. #18A
    		Hudson, MA  01749
    
    2. Regarding sending plans through the mail - Do people prefer getting
    their plans folded up in an envelope, or rolled up in a tube? The tube
    prevents the paper from getting creased but it costs more for materials
    and shipping. Any preferences?
    
    3. Regarding Mike Pitoniak's comments - Mr. Reith is correct, the one
    sheet of balsa is sufficient for both fuse sides. As for the cap strip
    typo, I fixed that already in the instruction plans (you got the early
    version, Mike). 
    
    I seriously considered adding a diagram to clear up the description of
    cutting inner panel top spar to proper length, but there wasn't time to
    add it. Now I will. It's actually not anything critical, but an attempt
    to maintain an accurate airfoil right through the polyhedral break. I
    won't attempt to further explain it here, but hope to have new rev of
    the instructions on the system next week.
    
    4. Yep, guess who's Predator scored a touchdown today? Actually, I
    understand it hit the post and dropped to the ground, the crowd sighing
    in disappointment. I wouldn't know, I was attending a luncheon
    commemorating the death of our old group. I entrusted my wings to
    experienced pilot, Steve "Easy As She Goes" Smith. He's still shaking
    his head, muttering "I can't figure out what went wrong..." At first I
    thought he was pulling yet another gag on me (did I tell anyone what he
    did to me last weekend?), but there was a very real break in the right
    wing. It's actually not a big deal, no where near as bad as the time I
    flew it between two sign posts that were about a meter apart. I'm sure
    the stupid thing will fly again.
    
    Dave
    

    I'm sure it will fly better than ever.
    
    Mike pointed out something to me that I didn't notice (who reads plans
    anyway). The plans show the fuselage longerons cut at each bulkhead.
    Personally, I put on full fuselage length longerons and notched the
    bulkheads. I feel the one piece longerons add strength and it really
    isn't a big deal to notch the bulkheads as you install them. We all
    have out own personal preference and building style.

Yeah, I wasn't real clear on how to do the longerons. My preference is to 
leave an opening in the longerons for the formers, because it helps to
properly locate the former, and it braces the former in place.

Another item which may prompt some questions is the ply doublers on the fuse
sides. In the original design, I only used the doublers around the finger 
hole area. But experience with my plane and Jim's suggested the doublers would
be useful right up to the noseblock. So, I drew it in that way on the plans.
It occured to me later that because of the ply, the formers will not contact
the fuse side between the longerons (there will be a 1/32 space). I suppose
that's not a big deal, but it may be a little confusing. One way around this
is to cut the ply into sections, allowing a space for the formers to meet the
balsa sides.

Just weighed my Predator this weekend. The glider which began its life at
about 14 ounces now tips the scale at 18 ounces. Boy, epoxy and plywood sure
are heavy. And it makes a HUGE difference in the way it flies, especially
noticeable from a handtoss.

Dave

Friday at the Acton field, I met up with Dave, Jim, Lemar, Kay, Pete, Dan
and about a half dozen other people. I think it was one of the biggest 
turnouts to date.

I had hoped to have the Intimidator ready to go, but alas it was not. I brought
it for people to look at, but it was not ready to fly. Dave Walter, being the
gentleman that he is, gave me some stick time on the predator. After awhile
he took it back and proceeded to thermal it out of sight. Some where into this
flight, he gave it back to me to get some more stick time. Also during this
flight, he had to leave for a meeting.

Dave's first mistake was to give me the TX in the first place. The second was
deciding that because I had the afternoon off and would still be at the field,
he'd leave the predator with me, go do his thing, and then return. So, off
Dave goes.

Sometime later, the predator returns to mother earth, and I am doing hand
launches again. While I'm hand launching, I'm considering going up on the
high start to do some thermal hunting.

I launched (hand) the predator, did a 360 or two, and as I come around back
into the wind towards myself, I see that there is a metal soccer goal between
the predator and myself. At first I think, what the heck, I'll just fly
through it. I have this teeny little plane, and this BIG soccer goal. No
problem. As I approach the goal, I decide na, I won't play games with someone
else's plane and pull up to go over the goal. Suddenly I hear this horrendous
BONG!!!!! as the predator center punches the soccer goal and falls to earth in
two pieces. The sound is loud enough that it get's EVERYONE'S attention at the
field.

Damage inspection shows that the wing bolt sheared and there was leading edge,
and sheeting damage on the right side. Spar and ribs were intact. Hatch cover
lost the rubber band someplace. Small split in the fuse just behind the nose
block.

All this took place about 10 minutes after Dave left. He wasn't due to return
for about an hour. At about 1:45, everyone else was gone and I sat there
waiting for Dave's return. At 2:30, just as I was about to put the predator
in the car and leave, Dave arrives. Dave get's out of the car and I approach
him saying "bad news". Dave says "your kidding, what happened". I say "GOAL
POST". Dave shakes his head knowingly.

Picks up the wounded predator, puts it in the car, pulls out the Prodigy,
launches it, and GIVES ME THE TX. My first thought is that Dave is trying to
get out of the hobby and wants to blame it on someone else. But I guess not.
He's just a nice guy.

I really felt bad having to hang around for an hour and a half having nothing
to fly ( I meand dinging the predator), but seeing it fly again Sunday made
me feel better. He even let me fly it again. WILL THIS MAN NEVER LEARN.

Yesterday (this is getting to be a long note, but no sense making two notes)
I met Jim reith, Lemar,  and Pete at the acton field. The intimidator was ready 
to go. Winds were at least 20 to 25 MPH with higher gusts. First launch was a 
bear as the plane popped off about half way up the launch and I had WAY too much
up trim. The Intimidator was porposing all over the place which, in 25 MPH 
winds was interesting. I got it under control but had no altitude left and
just landed. Second launch was ok and some more trimming was done. Third and
last launch was pretty good and the Intimidator flew well. Even in the strong
winds of yesterday, it would still penetrate (with no balast) and was very
responsive and controlable. I think it will be a very good flying ship in more
reasonable winds and will work well on the slope. So far, I'm happy with it.
I'll even let Dave fly it.

    There are several rites of passage in Acton. One of them is hitting the
    permanent soccer goals. We've ALL done it (landing in the net is FUN
    8^). The next step is wandering through the swamp looking for planes
    (or pieces). Oh, we didn't tell you about the swamp down below those
    trees??

	Rev. 4 of the instruction manual is now available in the same directory
	as before:

		UPSENG::SPITFIRE:[WALTER.PUBLIC]PREDATOR_MAN_4.PS

	Our group just moved into Salem NH from the Andover plant, and the
	computers were jostled a bit in the move. If anyone has problems
	accessing the file, let me know.

	Rev. 4 Update:
	--------------
	The only major change in this version is the addition of a diagram
	that (I hope) explains how the inboard spar is cut to match up with
	the outboard spar. If this is still confusing, then I'm plum out of
	ideas on how to describe it. I'm an engineer, not a tech writer!

	Dave

	Another Predator was sighted this weekend. Alan Ball brought his
	plane to Bose for a bit of slope soaring. Unfortunately, the wind
	was from The Treacherous Southwest, causing the lift to occasionally
	drop to zero. During one of these lulls, when I had plenty of 
	altitude, Alan's plane dropped like a rock (did I mention that it's
	even heavier than my bloated original?) and somehow he managed to
	miss the slope and kiss the road at the bottom instead. The damage
	was minor, but it took him out of action for the day. Too bad, I
	was hoping to give it a try.

	Keep it light! Light! Light!


	Dave

    
    I got my copy of the new Predator plans from Lamar last night and 
    have to say....GREAT JOB DAVE !! I wasn't sure what to expect compared
    to the piece meal plans I had but when I say the new ones.....WOW..
    
    You've outdone yourself !!  Now I'll print a copy of the rev 4 manual
    and go to town.....
    
    George

    
    
               I too recieved my copy of the Predator plans from Dave.
           Excellent job Dave. I have recieved plans from RCM that were
           not as good, ( Firestreak , RCM 1983 I think) The instruction
           manual is good and I've already read it through twice!. I may
           just build two of these at once, sort of like competing against
           myself to see which one comes out the lightest. I also like the
           bit about useing a 25 foot piece of rubber for a small field
           high start. Perfect for my "backyard" . 
    
     Regards
     kevin p

    Personally, I find that the fuselage on a HLG takes the most abuse.
    I've got three Gnome fuselages and which one is flying usually depends
    on which one is the most repairable. While I've damaged the wing, it's
    generally the fuselage damage that grounds me. I flew my Gnome after
    taking out the leading edge on the soccer goal last year by just
    removing the loose pieces 8^) I got in a few more tosses before having
    to go back to work. It's always nice to have a spare fuselage at a
    contest where you can just transfer the Rx and battery and fly (I
    usually keep servos in two of them)
    
    I'll agree with the quality. They're better than my RCM P-38 plans

    
     I got to spend a little time in the shop last night and got started
     on the Predator. I was able to build up the stab get it all sanded
     and have the fin just about done.
    
     Boy...the carbon fiber sandwiched between the (2) 1/8 sq. balsa stix
     for the stab leading edge realing strengthens it up. Thanks for the
     tip Lamar... I am also planning on adding "CF" between the spruce 
     stix used to reinforce the leading and trailing edge of the fin...
    
     I'd like to keep the weight close to the recommended 15oz, but I'd
     rather lean to a little added strength for a novices first fumbling
     glider flights....
    
     George

    In case anyone else wants them, I mailed Lamar, Dave, and Mike the
    aifoil.com generated templates for the tip ribs. I generated a set of 6
    ribs, root=7", tip=6" with a straight taper. this gives you a pattern
    for each rib.

    Dave,
    
     Thanks for the clerifications to the wing polyhedral
    assembly process; if it was clear enough to sink into
    my thick skull it qualifies you for tech writer of the year!
    
    regards,
    
    mike

    Hey Jim,
    
    How about putting the airfoil (predator_tip_templates.ps) in this note.
    Then us common folk could extract it.
    
    Thanks ,
    Bob in Pho

    Ya Jimbo,
    
      I second Bob's reply.....

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/S3014 [
% Similar to the S3021, it has lift and drag characteristics similar to
% the E193 and E205 but is improved in drag.  Better than the S3010 or 
% S3021 at very low Reynolds numbers (down to 60,000).  Ideal for wing 
% tips or HLGs.  Falcon 880 uses a S3021 for the root to the tip panel 
% and the S3014 for the tip panel itself.
    
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    .43477     .06988
    .38629     .07166
    .33908     .07235
    .29354     .07192
    .25001     .07043
    .20924     .06790
    .17136     .06434
    .13682     .05971
    .10585     .05403
    .07864     .04741
    .05535     .03997
    .03607     .03190
    .02088     .02344
    .00978     .01492
    .00278     .00682
    .00000    -.00003
    .00284    -.00526
    .01183    -.00972
    .02610    -.01383
    .04545    -.01731
    .06973    -.02006
    .09879    -.02204
    .13239    -.02329
    .17024    -.02386
    .21197    -.02385
    .25713    -.02335
    .30520    -.02244
    .35564    -.02120
    .40787    -.01970
    .46129    -.01801
    .51527    -.01620
    .56920    -.01433
    .62242    -.01246
    .67431    -.01064
    .72423    -.00893
    .77158    -.00736
    .81577    -.00595
    .85625    -.00472
    .89250    -.00367
    .92405    -.00277
    .95049    -.00199
    .97151    -.00124
    .98699    -.00052
    .99668    -.00010
   1.00001     .00000

  ] def

AirfoilDict begin
%%%% begin first page %%%%
save
72 72 sc % set scale to inches instead of points
0 setlinecap
0 setlinejoin
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/AF S3014 def
/copies 1 def
/labelfoil (S3014) def
/skin .0625 def
/leading .25 def
/trailing 0 def
/draftmode 1 0 eq def
/ribcount 6 def
/rootthickness 1.0 def
/tipthickness 1.0 def
/rootAOA 0 def
/tipAOA 0 def
/rootAOApoint 0 def
/tipAOApoint 0 def
/rootchord 7.0 def
/tipchord 6.0 def
/rootfrontholepoint 0 def
/tipfrontholepoint 0 def
/rootholeelevation 0 def
/tipholeelevation 0 def
/rearholeoffset 0 def
/holesize 0 def
/elliptical 0 def
 
1 1 ribcount {
    /ribnumber exd
    /seq ribcount 1 gt {ribnumber 1 sub ribcount 1 sub div}{0}ifelse def
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        seq dup dup mul neg 1 add sqrt neg 1 add elliptical fade fade def
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    AF rootthickness tipthickness seq fade thickness reverse 2.125 10.75 chord 
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    gsave
    1 1 copies 1 sub {pop copypage}for
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    grestore
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restore
end

%%Trailer

I have placed a copy of the Predator ribs PS file in my public directory:

	UPSENG::SPITFIRE:[WALTER.PUBLIC]PREDATOR_RIBS.PS

Thanks to Jim Reith for generating the file, and Glenn Schrader for writing
the program.

    Dave, 
    
    I am coming over to your part of the world in a couple of weeks time. I
    would very much like to pick up a copy of the Predator plans - saves
    postage! Where are you based?
    
    For any UK RC notes readers - I would be happy (if it is OK with Dave
    himself!) to collect copies of these plans for you at the same time.
    Any takers? Mail me (NEWOA::NEALE or Brian Neale @NEW) or call on DTN
    774 6035.
    
    - Brian

	I work in Salem, New Hampshire, live in Hudson, Massachusetts.
	You can contact me through mail to make arrangements to meet.

	(Egad! Predators migrating across The Big Pond? This is great!
	But I just thought of something: Someone told me there's a 
	European plane of some sort called the Predator. Has anyone heard
	of it? Do I have a copyright problem?)

	Dave

    Dave,
    
     Making great progress on my preditor. I noticed last nite that
    the material list was missing the root rib 3/16 material; or
    am i missing something obvious again???
    
    mike

	Yep, that's another omission. I think I'll edit the instructions to
	simply include 3/16" sheet for the root ribs. However, you can also
	stack up a 1/8" to a 1/16" sheet and glue together. Or use three
	1/16" sheets. Doesn't matter. But the ribs do need to be at least
	3/16" thick so that the dowel is completely surrounded by wood.

	Dave

    Two stock 1/16" ribs sandwiched around one made from vertical grain
    would be very sturdy and fit into the current wood. I also believe
    there's enough 3/32" left after cutting the fuselage sides to get two
    from there.
    
    I always raid my scrap box for things like this. When I get done
    scratch building, I generally have a couple of untouched sheets hanging
    around begging me to start something else 8^)

    Dave,
    
     Should the polyhedral rib be paralell to the inner panel ribs, or
    the outer panel ribs?
    
    thanks,  
    
    Mike

    I received my Predator plans. Looks good Dave.
    
    What is the function of the longer rear fuse. and increased fin area?
    To  improve spiral stability?
    
    I have a stock E205 Flinger wing, in perfect shape, which will make
    an interesting comparision to the S3014, if I build the new one as
    a 3014, but am leaning to the S4061 as I've had good results with
    that, or even the E387 just to see what all the contemporary fuss
    is over that being the hot "new" foil for HLG.
    
    Actually the Predator must take its place in the building queue, and
    frankly I've forgotten how many are ahead of it, but am shooting for
    completion this decade. ;^)
    
    Terry

	Re: -.1

	Probably doesn't matter much. It's only a few degrees of 
	difference. If you use my build procedure, the polyhedral angle
	has already been set, and you're just placing the rib halves into
	place. I think I ended up gluing them in at an angle half way between
	the inner and outer ribs. 

    Dave,
    
     Thanks..

    
    Dave,
    
       I'm having trouble copying the rev. 4 manual. Is UPSENG available
       to copy from yet, and if not can you put the file in a copyable
       location ??
    
    Thanks,
         George

	(Reply to Terry...)

	If you want to know how I came up with the modifications of the Flinger,
	here's how the design process went:

	First of all, I wanted more wing area. With 330 sq in, the Flinger 
	just seemed to drop out of the air too easily (how's that for scientific
	observation?). And somewhere (maybe this conference) I read that 
	HLG's fly best with 400 sq in. So I just increased the chord from
	6" to 7". I also used the S3014 airfoil because of a suggestion in 
	this conference.

	Next, I felt the Flinger was a bit short coupled, way too sensitive
	to elevator. As Helmut once commented, "it didn't groove in the air".
	So I extended the tail boom, 2" I think.

	Once I had decided roughly where the 40% point of the horizontal stab
	and vertical stab would be, I needed to determine the area of each
	surface. For this, I actually had to do some calculations! Helmut had
	given me a rule of thumb, in his usual cryptic way: "0.4 and 0.03".
	That's the "horizontal stab volume" and the "vertical stab volume".
	These are the dimensions that seemed to work well for his planes.
	The equations (don't remember them right now) for volume use the
	wing span, wing chord, moment arm (that's the distance from the
	wing 40% point to the surface 40% point), and surface area. The
	hard part was translating the surface area to a usable shape, 
	especially for the fin, which isn't a simple rectangle. Matter of
	fact, the fin ended up at 0.025 and it still looks big.

	And the only noteworthy part of the fuse (other than making it as
	narrow as possible) was to extend the nose a bit so less weight would
	be needed to balance it.

	When it came to setting wing incidence, I didn't have a clue, 
	scientifically speaking. So I used what most gliders seem to have, 
	1 degree of positive incidence. I should mention here that some
	experimentation has convinced me that the incidence has a huge effect
	on the glide of the plane. Get it just right and it seems to just
	cover sky effortlessly, and long, low landing approaches are possible.
	Get it wrong, and it's as if you put the brakes on.

	So that's it. I know about as much about spiral stability as your
	common mollusk. Most of the design was just educated cases and some
	blind faith. It was a lot of fun, too.

	Dave

    Thanks for the explanation.
    Mollusks are noted for their  high stability, so you're in good
    company.
    
    Another mod I'm considering is CF mat to replace some of the ply
    doublers.
    
    Terry

    Fellow Preditor builders,
    
     I was considering painting the fuselage rather than covering it
    basicly because my skills with monocote leave something to be
    desired, but additionally for weight savings. 
    
     My concern is with what Dave mentioned in the building instructions,
    regarding sealing the finger hole to prevent damage from wet
    grass landings. Is there an epoxy based primer/paint that would fit
    the bill here??
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Mike

    K&B and HobbyPoxy both make model epoxy paints. I'm not sure that
    you'll come out lighter than monocoat by painting unless you simply
    throw a coat on to seal/color without going for a smooth surface. I
    honestly think paint will add too much weight (but with 4 servos in the
    wings, what does it matter 8^)

    OK, I'll bite: do you REALLY have 4 servos in the wings??? Tell me
    it ain't true...

    Why do you think we're discussing catapult launching techniques in
    another topic?

    In honor of the DECRCM meeting tonight, I decided to bring in the
    Predator so that people who are building one can get a look at the
    finished product. Matter of fact, I thought it would be a good idea to
    illustrate some of the wing details. So, I took it out at lunch time,
    in strong winds and ferocious turbulence, and proceeded to expose some
    of the "wing details". Well, OK, maybe the decision to show the inside
    of the wing came AFTER the lunchtime flight. 
    
    A very short flight it was, too. I knew it was windy, but I've flown in
    wind before. I realized it was turbulent after the first couple tosses.
    An intelligent pilot would have stopped here. But I pressed on,
    figuring I can handle it. The next throw got lots of altitude; the
    plane topped out, moved about 20 feet into the wind, then all control
    response just came to a halt. At the same time, an invisible hand
    flipped it on its back and literally threw it into the ground. I mean
    it was tomahawked! Must have been one of them "microbursts" the
    airlines blame most of their accidents on. Yeah, it was a microburst. Only
    once before have I seen one of my gliders change direction so fast. 
    
    Oh, well, more fodder for show and tell.
    
    Dave
    

    re .44
    
    To seal the wood in and around the finger hole, just brush on a coat
    of slow cure epoxy glue such as Hobby Poxy II. It can be thinned
    slightly with alcohol in order to flow out more easily, but on such
    a small area, thinning isn't really necessary.
    
    I agree with the others, that a film covering will be lighter than
    any sort of decent looking paint job.
    
    BTW, what's this "wet grass" business ? Thought that was illegal. ;^).
    
    Terry

    Regarding .45 , Does this glider realy have 4 servos in the wing?
    Can someone give me the configuration before I order a set of plans.
    EG. Two channel aileron / elevator ship with optional flaps/spoolers
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Bob in Pho 
    
    P.S. Thankyou to Jim Reith for the postscript(airfoil) , muchos gracias !

>                     <<< Note 1374.50 by BBOVAX::DONAGHY >>>
>                        -< Say it ain't so - 4 servos? >-

It ain't so.  They were joking.  It is a classic HLG.
Best with two micro servos and a micro receiver.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    How ya doing, Bob. The Shadow still lives!
    
    I was just kidding a guy who recently asked 347 questions when I new
    his latest plane was a Predator. Polyhedral rudder/elevator and micro
    servos are needed.

    Thank God he's not putting 4 servos in the wing. You had me going
    there!
    
    The next rev of the instructions will have a few words on suggested
    radio equipment. I designed the fuse around the Futaba micro radio:
    R114H receiver, S133 servos, and 250ma battery. A bigger receiver will
    most likely force  you to deepen the fuse a bit. Mini servos might fit
    as is, but standard ones will also force some dimension to change. And
    a 250ma pack (or smaller) is your only chance to keep the nose nice and
    narrow. 
    

    I used the S-133 servos and 225ma battery with my JR PCM 7ch Rx. One of the
    nice differences in this Rx is that the plugs are on the end, not off
    the top/side. One minor worry is that if the Rx slides back enough, it
    could unplug something. It fit very nicely in the supplied space under
    the front half of the wing and it balanced properly.
    
    One other mod that I don't think I mentioned was that I used clear soda
    straws (seem the lightest) a a Rx antenna tunnel through the tail which
    allows me to pop the Rx in and out of the plane rather easily. This is
    important since I have a limited number of Rxs to swap around. This is
    from the Ol' Buzzard's book in the streamlining section.

    Even though I may be just foolish enough to sqeeze 4 servos in
    a preditor, I have no plans to do so right now. :-)
    
    I have though of a mod I would like to try in a next 
    generation preditor though; and I would like to get some input
    on from those that have seen other designs over their building
    experience.
    
     I would like to implemenmt a full flying stab like the chuperosa.
    I borrowed the plans from Kay to try to gain some insight,
    but I dont think that design would be applicable. The goal would
    be to maintain the rigidity of the longerons in the rear, and some-how
    integrate a fin assymbly into the fuselage without making the rear
    too wide, or heavy. From here an approach like the chup would 
    work fine.
    
    For those that would ask why, i'll add that the current design
    is probably preferable, but I have quite a bit of difficlty with
    covering the tail feathers first, and the mounting them. The goal
    would be to make the covering of the fus/fin easier, and then just
    slide the horiz stab on later.
    
    Any inputs appreciated.
    
    Mike
    

	The main reason I went with a regular stab rather than full flying
	is weight. You need more stuff back there with the full flying, like
	brass tubes and steel connecting rods, and all the reinforcements to
	hold them in place. It adds up. I think the Chup designer tried to
	compensate for that by using the open fuse structure in the back,
	to reduce weight. (Chup owners: Is that open fuse a weak point?)

	The advantage of the full flying stab is you don't have to worry 
	about wing incidence. When you trim the elevator, you are effectively
	changing the neutral incidence. That's a nice feature. 

	But I'll reiterate my personal opinion here: weight is KEY! It's just
	SO much easier to ride a thermal when the wing loading is low. And the
	therms near the ground tend to be pretty weak. The plane can also be
	thrown higher, with less pain in the arm.

	If you aren't so concerned about performance from a hand launch, then
	by all means try a full flying stab. Experimentation is fun! And so
	far, no two Predators have been built alike.

	Dave

I've kept track of everyone who has been given copies of the Predator plans.
We're up to about 23 so far. Of that 23, 3 have actually been built. That's 
probably a normal buy-to-build ratio!

James Armstrong		Downeast Soaring Club
Ken Baker		Downeast Soaring Club
Robert Cerchione	Met at Salisbury glider contest
Bob Collins		DEC
Tom Deloriea		DEC
Kay Fisher		DEC
Dave Fonseca		DEC
Jeff Friedrichs		DEC
George Higgins		DEC
George Mills		DEC
Dan Miner		DEC
Randy Oswald		DEC
Mark Patrolia		Met at Salisbury glider contest
Lamar Phillips		DEC
Kevin Pistey		DEC
Mike Pitoniak		DEC
Edward Prentice		DEC
Lawton Read		DEC (got plans from Lamar?)
Jim Reith		DEC
Earl Timmons		DEC
Terry Tombaugh		DEC
Charlie Watt		DEC
Bryan Whaley		Met at Long Island glider contest

    One thing that I've done with the Fiberglass Chup is lengthened the
    nose 2" to allow the radio to be moved farther forward to balance. I've
    done that with several planes simply because I tend to build heavy and
    it usually shows up in the tail. I'd rather move necessary weight
    forward (radio) than add dead weight. I don't think the longer nose
    hurts anything if the tail moment is kept standard. Any thoughts on
    that?
    
    The strength of the Chup tail seems to be dependent on how much care
    you take to build the cross bracing. Good glue joints make a strong
    structure. Ill fitting parts add nothing to it. It also has to do with 
    how much the tail gets whipped around. Catching a wingtip and whipping
    the tail sideways seems to break the majority of the tails I've seen.
    On my Gnome, I dropped it tail first a couple of times but only broke
    the rear fuselage when catching a wing on something (the goal posts
    come to mind)

    The Chup tail seems plenty strong to me. Never broke mine.
    Only thing that breaks is the little stab root fairings that are glued
    to the fin.
    
    I agree with Dave that you can't add too much lightness in an HLG.
    
    All else being equal, a short nose glider will turn tighter/quicker.
    Mainly noticeable on non-aileron designs.
    
    Terry

Oops. I forgot a couple people. Two new suckers...er, owners, are:

Ajai Thir*mumble*ai	DEC
Tom Rataski		DEC

    COMPLETED PREDITORS..........
    
    
    add me to the list!
    
    It looks so pretty just sitting there on my work bench I almost
    don't want to take it out for the inevitable.
    
    Great design Dave, I love it!
    
    
    p.s. Thanks for the inputs on the stab.

    Gawd, guys... at least he didn't hyphenate it when he got married!

    Now that you reminded me...

    
      I bet the government would allow your wife in if you volunteered to
    trade places with her! :)

    Ajai,
    
    	I wasn't aware any one in this notes file was responsible for
    keeping your wife out of the country. 8^) <-------- semi serious
    
    Steve

    Question for you predator builders...
    
    How far back do the cap strips extend?  All the way to the trailing
    edge of the wing, or just the trailing edge of the rib??
    
    Thanks!
    jeff
    
    (who has build the fuse and is already a bit worried about going near
    a scale..  I REALLY tried to build it light!  Honest!)
    

    OK, I talked with Dave yesterday and he straightened me out..  I didn't
    look closely enough at the wing cross section,  (Yes, dave, it is on 
    my plans..)  thus my question really doesn't make any sense...
    
    One other question though, is the LE to spar upper sheeting the entire
    length of the wing?
    
    Also, have people been using carbon fiber on the spars or no bothered?
    I CF the spars on the inside surface but it did not seem to help the
    strength nearly as much as the shear webbing did..
    
    As for weight... I was at lechmere last night and they had these food
    scales for sale for $7.99, and it weighs up to 16oz, or $9.99 up to
    18oz. (1/2oz increments.  It also has grams)  I was so curious about 
    the weight that I bought one...
    
    Currently, the fuse w/radio gear but w/o covering is a bit over 8oz.
    The misbuilt wing *half* was about 1.5oz.  Gee, maybe I will be able to
    come in at about 16oz....
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    

    Jeff,
    
    I used CF on the full length of the spars along with the sheer webs and
    it really helped the wing strength. I don't think I'd build another
    plane I intended to winch launch without CF on the spars (remember the
    balsa snow storm in June?) If you're never going to put a tow hook on
    it, don't worry about it but I think you need it if you're going to
    zoom launch it even off a medium hi-start.
    
    (I don't remember the LE sheeting)

I never did use any carbon fiber in the wing. It seems to be plenty strong 
as it is. I've even winch launched the Predator without any problems. Matter
of fact, the wing seems to be the most rugged part of the glider... all my
repairs have been to the tail and the fuselage, especially around the tail 
section.

The top wing sheeting is from the spar to the leading edge, for the full span.
That gives the wing a lot of strength and stiffness. Now, if you'd like to
try something different, maybe you could taper the top sheet between the 
poly break and the tip to save weight. (I think the Gentle Lady wing is built
that way???)  Or eliminate the sheeting entirely on the outboard panel. Reducing
the weight in the tip panels will probably enhance the handling and quickness 
too. But, it'll break more easily.

Better yet, build two wings, one extra light, and a stock wing for use when
you're fixing the light wing.

Dave

>>>> All my repairs have been to the tail and fuse.

     EXCEPT when you leave it with me........8^)

Steve

>>>     EXCEPT when you leave it with me........8^)

OK, ok, so my previous statement was a little inaccurate. The wing HAS taken
some damage. Once from a badly positioned goal post (Steve, how fast was that
goal post going when it hit you???), and before that from a 
direct hit by a lead-sled Sagitta. I guess I was talking about damage incurred
during normal flight maneuvers, not special circumstances. Of course, when
Steve is flying, a normal flight maneuver IS a special circumstance!

Dave

>                     <<< Note 1374.72 by UPSENG::WALTER >>>
>                             -< I stand corrected >-
...
>direct hit by a lead-sled Sagitta. I guess I was talking about damage incurred

Hmmmmm - I have the only lead-sled Sagitta that I know about and
I don't remember hitting your predator?  Could it be that someone found
a way to stuff more lead in the nose of their Sagitta than I did?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    It was the one from CRRC.

This particular collision was with Bruce Schneider's Sagitta. It may not be
quite as dense as Kay's, but as sleds go it's right up there. The impact
put a slight crease in his nose, and nearly demolished my Predator.

I finally completed Predator fuselage #2. I'm a little disappointed
with the all up flying weight of 17 oz. I was hoping to get back down
to the 15 oz. range, and I'm a little mystified as to how it ended up
so heavy. I built it according to the latest plans, with only two major
departures: I used ply doublers that only extend to former F3 (under the
middle of the wing), and I added wing fillets to the saddle area. I can't
imagine more than .5 oz or so caused by the wing fillets.

There's a chance that the wing (from the original Predator) is the source
of the extra weight. After encounters with a CMRCM sign post, a speeding
Sagitta, and an Acton soccer goal post (Steve, HOW fast was that goal 
post going...?!), the wing has taken on some extra mass, but I don't know
how much.

For you measurement masochists out there, here's how the weight distribution
panned out. All items were weighed after covering (Ultracoat); an O'Haus
three beam balanced was used for the measurements.

			Predator #2 Weight

	Item					grams		ounces
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Fin, rudder, and fin fillets			 10.4		 .37

  Stab and elevator				 17.1		 .60

  Fuse (w/out control cables)			104.7		3.69

  Wing						163.5		5.77

  2 control cables + control horns		 15.5		 .55

  Rcvr, 250mA, 2 servos, switch			123.8		4.37

  Nose weight for balance			 55.0		1.94
						-----------------------
      Total				        490 g          17.3 oz


Hmmmmm. Almost 2 oz noseweight. Sounds kind of high. I used Ultracoat 
on this fuse instead of Monocoat. Could that add significantly to tail 
weight?

Dave

    Those fin fillets have a big moment arm. You might try extending the
    nose slightly so the battery can move forward to offset the tail
    weight. Really does seem a shame to add almost 2oz of nose weight to
    balance it out. Seems to be the difference between 15 and 17ozs.

    re .54
    Jim, where did you locate the soda straws, in the same approximate
    position as the plan location, ie lower corner of fuse or up higher?
    If it is the lower corner, does straw interfere with your finger in 
    the finger hole. (question from a beginner rc'r).

    Actually my straws start at the top of the finger hole and head down to
    the floor at the tail. Use the lighter clear straws. On my next one I'm
    going to run the antenna through the wing so I don't have the tail
    heavyness from the wire behind the CG (just a thought)

    Do I have to tell the story? I'm embarrassed enough as it is. 
    
    In a nutshell, I broke the cardinal rule about staying away from power
    lines and put my Predator right into a power pole. Worse, it stuck...
    one wing panel came fluttering down, but the rest of the plane was
    nicely nestled in between the power pole and some high voltage lines.
    How do I know they were high voltage? Because we observed little
    lightning bolts dancing through the wing every couple seconds. But that
    seemed to stop eventually. I nervously looked around for strangely
    dark houses and half expected a Conn Edison truck to pull up at any
    instant, but no one seemed to notice. Although it's hard not to notice
    grown men standing in the middle of the street and throwing rocks at 
    a power pole.
    
    We eventually graduated to golf balls, and I nailed that thing many
    times, knocking off the tail and placing a divit or two in the fuse...
    but it didn't budge. Right about this time I felt roughly 2" tall. I
    had to leave it up there and go back to work. After work, Jim Reith 
    went back down to the field, and bless his soul, threw softballs at it
    for 15 minutes until it finally was dislodged and came down. Apparently
    he got a standing ovation from the soccer players at the field.
    
    The damage is really not too bad, considering the abuse it took from
    Top-Flite DDH and Ben Hogan Plus. Most amazing of all... the receiver
    still works! Those Futaba R-114H receivers may now be specified
    resistant to 14,000 volts!
    
    Dave
    
    PS: Earle, are you ready for me to test fly your new Predator? What
    voltage is it rated for?
    

    
      DW1,
    
         The DW's have been having a tough year when it comes to crashes.
      The good news for you is that I still have a comfortable lead in #
      of crashes since January 1st. The bad news is that the crashes seem
      to be migrating towards you in the last two weeks ( Gremlin, and
      Predetor), and BTW, that works for me! :)
    
         I don't know what all the fuss is about Futaba recievers, my AM
      Futaba performed flawlessly at C-mass while JR FM's and PCM's were
      getting hit left and right, now yours is able to take a 14,000
      volt lickin, and its still tickin! :)
    
                                                          DW2
          

    Just don't try the 23 channel test with that AM receiver!  By the way,
    birds and such sit on those wires all the time so it isn't hard to
    imagine why the receiver would get away with it.  I saw a thing in MA a
    couple of years back where a U-Control Combat plane took off with it's
    steel lines attached and shorted out a big transformer, causing a
    blackout and a bill to the AMA of 30K.
    
    
    Bummer
    
    Charlie
    

    This is a sad day for me. I have cast my eyes upon a Predator that
    looks nicer than mine ever did. Earle Timmons, a newcomer to RC, built
    a Predator from my plans for his FIRST airplane, and did a spectacular
    job on it. It took me at least 3 airplanes to get the covering as
    smooth and tight as on Earle's plane. There isn't a wrinkle to be found
    on it, and even the nose contouring is seamless.
    
    The only changes he will have to make before getting airborne are to
    add some noseweight (he even pre-hollowed out the nose block just in
    case!) and reduce the throw of the elevator (which is currently set up
    for the kind of throws used by Eric and the Snowman).
    
    My compliments to Earle for a fine job of craftsmanship! Now it's time
    to learn to fly this beast, and I can't wait to get it in the air.
    Let's see, where's the nearest telephone pole...?
    
    Dave
    

    Dave,
    	Are you planning to convert his to Electric also?  If you use metal
    foil covering, you can improve the special effects the next time you
    drop in for a "charge". :-)
    
    Charlie
    

    Well, my ship finally got into the air for the first time. In the
    cockpit was "Captain'" Dave Walter. Thanks Dave! 
    	This was also my first time flying RC. Dave hi-started the thing
    and passed the controls to me. Pretty scary at times. I sure hope I
    will be able to fly 1/10 as good as he! (loved those 3 loops you did
    Dave!). Actually, the 3 loops were unintential. I initiated the loop
    do to being a beginner then handed (threw) the xmitter at Dave. I
    thought it was really neat, Dave making to more loops until I saw him
    running toward the plane. We don't know what happened except that the
    antenna may have got snagged in the elevator. Radio is a brand new
    Futaba Conquest. 
    	After that, he folded the antenna along the fuse and taped it. Flew
    again and he found a thermal. Really exciting to see your fruits of
    labor climbing still higher. 
    	I think I'm hooked!!!!!!!!!
    
    ps. Met Mike Ptoniak there for the first time. Mike, I'm impressed with
    your flying after only a year at it!
    
    Earle

    The latest Predator flies just fine. Earle did a super building job.
    All I needed to do to trim it was eyeball the surfaces. Another click
    or two of down trim in the air and it was trimmed out. It launched on
    the high start like it was on rails, a good indication that the wing is 
    straight and true. In spite of the overcast sky, there was some good
    lift around, so I would ride up a thermal, hand the box to Earle, and
    when it got low I'd take the box back and find another therm and go
    back up. It worked out really well. Earle has begun that climb up the
    learning curve.
    
    Earle's Predator felt exactly like mine with my new wing (the one that
    I actually built to my own plans). I still prefer the way the older
    wing flew. With more dihedral, the old wing  was much more responsive
    and seemed to lose less speed in the turns. I think I'll hack off the
    outer wing panels on my new wing and reattach them at a higher dihredal
    angle, see if it improves the performance.
    
    By the way, while we were flying today a fire engine pulled over to
    watch for a few minutes. At first I thought they were going to accuse
    me of flying into telephone poles, but they were just interested in the
    planes (Generic Question #1: "Hey, how much does one of those things
    cost?", Generic Question #2: "Where's the motor?", and Generic Question
    #3: "No motor? How does it fly? Do you have to wait for wind?").
                                                                 

    Well, my Predator is finally finished.  I built foam cores for it and
    covered it all in monokote.  Total weight (including 1.8oz of nose
    weight was 18oz  (arg!).  I have backed off on the noseweight a little
    though.
    
    My first flights were Friday morning.  I took about a dozen tosses
    before I broke the front dowel.  I had used a smaller dowel.  It had a 
    real tendancy to stall.  Also, the elevator linkage was a little sticky
    so my slow reactions were amplified.
    
    I went home and replaced the dowel with a larger one.  I also put some
    graphite on the pushrod.  I also (wrongly) added some nose weight to
    try to correct the stalling.  I headed out to the field in the
    afternoon again.  I took maybe 1/2 dozen more tosses, but found the 
    stalls to be worse.  Luckily, I did not damage the plane, but I did
    decide to put it away until I re-read some of the glider triming notes
    and newsletter articles.
    
    I relearned what I should have already known about dynamic balancing of
    the plane and removed some of the nose weight before I started flying
    on Sunday.  This helped the stalls a lot!  I finally got it to fly
    without (un-induced) stalls.  It was actually doing pretty well as I
    played with the nose weight some more.  
    
    I did notice that it turns better to the right.  Sure enough, there is
    a bit of a twist in the rudder.  DW2 filled me in on another trick.. 
    Before attaching the fin, put a pin in the nose of the plane and run a 
    string from the pin, around the fin and back to the pin.  Now you can
    attach the fin keeping both sides of fin in contact with the string. 
    Ifone or the other doesn't touch, then the fin is not straight.
    
    After a bunch of flights, I finally broke the wing hold down block and
    called it a day.  
    
    I should be able to take much of the twist out of the fin with the
    monokote.  The hold down is already re-glued.  This week I plan on
    putting the tow hook in and try some up-start flying with it.
    
    Overall, I am only some-what happy with how it came out.  There are
    more than a few mistakes and it is too heavy, but it will do for now.
    I also already have a lighter set of sheeted cores ready for finishing.
    Perhaps I will save a bit more weight with these.
    
    In all though, I (re)learned a lot and that is always good.
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    

    Jeff,
    
    Mine is flying at 18 oz. right now. Granted, it isn't the ideal weight
    (it flew MUCH nicer at 15 oz.) but it still flies pretty well and I 
    occasionally ride a thermal up. If you built the dowel and hold down
    block the way I show in the plans, the plane will disintegrate before
    those pieces break. (Me and a power pole proved that...)
    
    If you find that it tends to always turn one way in flight, the fin
    alignment may not be the only cause. Check the wing for any warps by
    holding the bottom side up and sighting down the dihedral breaks. It
    doesn't take much warp to cause it to turn. You can also put the plane
    in a dive, then pull up, and see if it comes up straight or to the
    side. Whenever the plane won't fly straight, I've found a warped wing
    is almost always the cause.
    
    Glad to hear it's flying! Maybe we can get together some time so I can
    see this foam-wing Predator.
    
    Dave