Conference vmszoo::rc

    I tried it at the MARC show last year outside of Baltimore...
    It's real tough, but very realistic (and fully aerobatic!!).

    Yes, I have used one.  Part of the cost comes from adding the
    "radio box". My impression, you can learn as much about RC flying
    with this simulator as you can learn to drive by playing a car
    video game. (Its a toy.)
    

    I have flown the Dave Brown simulator on an apple II.  The program
    is fairly good, but the graphics are not great.  It is useful for
    practicing stunts (cheaper than fixing airplanes) and for just plain
    fun in the winter.  It takes some getting used to to deal with the
    graphics.  Once above the tree line, it is hard to tell where the
    plane is.  Sometimes it flies overhead without you knowing it. 
    I find it harder than flying a real RC plane in this respect.  At
    the field, you always have some reference of where the plane is
    even when you are up pretty high.  You also know whether you are
    looking up(neck bent) or out.  Once you get used to the plane staying
    in the middle of the screen as if you constantly turned your body
    as you fly, it gets easier to fly the simulator.  I don't have a
    very good monitor for my apple.  
    
    Has anyone tried this simulator on the IBM PC?
    

    re .6
    
    What is included in package?  Software and some kind of dual joystick
    box?  Is it worth the money?  Other than graphics, does it simulate
    accurately an RC plane?  Is there a choice of planes..i.e. trainer,
    sport, pattern, etc...?
    
    Thanks 
    Chris      

    Chris,
    The package includes a dual joystick "transmitter" with trims and
    two push buttons.  This plugs into the Apple game port giving four
    analog joystick channels and two push button logic signals.  The
    program has a configuration mode that lets you select flight
    characteristics from trainer to airobatic and anywhere inbetween.
    I find that the flight characteristics are pretty real, but landings
    seem to be too easy to do.  I have done every stunt that I do with
    my Super Sportster 20 on the simulator.  If the graphics were better,
    then I would say it's definately worth the money.  Otherwise, it's
    up to you how much you are willing to spend on a computer game program.
    I would not say that it is good enough to teach someone how to fly.
    I had flown for a year before I got the simulator.  I do like the
    "transmitter" box and it can be used to play other Apple games.
    
    					Charlie
    

The IBM PC version I have sounds just like the Apple version.  Graphics are
generally poor - wireframe style.  Control box with 2 joy sticks, 3 buttons 
(dual rates on elevator and aileron and a re-start button), plugs into a game
port. N,S,E,W appear as compass headings as the plane flys around, there is
ground but no other scenery to get perspective (except the shadow of the plane).

It has a series of parameters you set via menu - (Power, Stall speed, wind 
speed, wind direction, roll rate, aileron sensitivity, rudder sensitivity,
elevator sensitivity, time (before you deadstick), drag, and 5 or 6 more.)

I recently sent $4 (and my floppy) to get a newer version of the sofware which
has a different color on the bottom of the wing - useful for visualization.

Charlie in .8 is correct in saying its an expensive computer game (~$100) and it
takes time to get used to the graphics.  I was surprised they haven't made 
it better in the last 3 years!!

I got the simulator last winter before I started flying. It was great for
getting used to the turn-left-turn-right-when-changing-directions blues I 
had when I first started. Recently I have been using it to learn about rudder
in turns, inverted flight, knife edge flying and to try other stunts I have
seen at the field - but have been unwilling to risk my plane in attempting.

So far my abilities have been the limiting factor, not the simulator. I find 
using it on these dark evenings when I used to drive to the field...ugh!
I would guess if you are experienced at this hobbie the simulator would be
real dull.

For me its just . . . plane fun.
Lawton

    2 or 3 years ago at the WRAM show in NY, I compared the Dave Brown
    simulator to the one on the Atari.  The Atari version was *MUCH*
    better (in my opinion).  I was bummed because I have an IBM PC and
    couldn't justify spending $1000. to get an Atari for the sole
    purpose of running the flight simulator.  (But I did think about it
    pretty hard - the Atari version is that good...)

                       _____
                      |     \
                      |      \                          Silent POWER!
      _        ___________    _________   |            Happy Landings!
     | \      |           |  |         |  |
     |--------|-  SANYO  + ]-|  ASTRO  |--|              - Dan Miner
     |_/      |___________|  |_________|  |
                      |       /           |     " The Earth needs more OZONE,
                      |      /                       not Castor Oil!! "    
                      |_____/

    I'm considering the purchase of a Dave Brown (or????) flight simulator
    to help with learing to fly my RC plane.  I realize it cannot take the
    place of real stick time however it may help just a bit.  Any comments
    on the Dave Brown or are there any others I should consider?  (I have
    an Digital 386 PC)  Thanks!                                 

    
    On our trip to the Stuttgart ferry we saw the Aerochopper program : 
    
                DM 769.- ($ 466.-)   
    
    Are they crazy or what ?
    
    
    Bernd

    Aerochopper is Excellent!  It doesn't cost $466 in the US!  (more like
    $200)  It comes with a "radio" by Futaba and an excellent manual.  It
    is very programable and it has chopper and aircraft (including
    gliders).  I highly recommend it for dry flying.
    
    
    Charlie
    

Hey Bernd... Does the German model come with an MC20 instead of 
the Futaba? 8^)

    don't think so. But the sound was excellent. When I heart and didn't
    know from where it came it sounded almost like a real one. 
    
    Can you imagine the success of a program (game) that cost $460 ?
    
    
    Bernd

    I meant Futabe of course....
    

I use the Dave Brown.  Its a second-rate simulation at best, but if
you want to keep the fingers supple between flights, it's pretty good.
My problem was in getting it to be hard enough to fly that it would
adequately simulate a real model.  Its taken me months, and I still
tweak it now and then.

There are no references beyond the compass points, and the runway
position is fixed at the extreme end, which is not realistic.  Also,
the runway is very narrow and is hard to hit (not that I can hit the
one at our field with any confidence).

I don't think its good for practicing much else beyond flying around
and touch-and-goes.    We're talking primitive here.  In short, if you
can afford the Aerochopper or another, do it--they're twice as
expensive as the DB, but from what I hear, they're much better.

BTW, I'm using a Kraft flight stick that I modified for another
channel to take the rudder; that is, I'm not flying off the
transmitter box, but I don't think that is a factor in my assessment
of the program.

I also have the Dave Brown simulator and seconds John's comments. It's
okay for touch and go practice, but for anything else, Aerochopper seems
better. It's very easy to loose your bearings and can be a b*tch to find
the runway again. Aerochopper is light years better than the DB simulator
in my opinion.

-Lamar

    Sounds like a Helicopter simulator?  Is it fixed wing too?  Where/how
    much does it cost and what are the system requirements?  Thanks!

There's chopper, fixed wing and glider in the simulator (maybe the name 
implies an initial chopper only version)

You can parameterize the model to fly more like what you want to practice 
in terms of power and glide and... It'll run on a DOS machine or a Mac 
(I've only played with other people's so I don't know the minimum 
configuration). As stated elsewhere, $200 for the software and a Futaba 
Tx for control inputs.

    Aerochopper will run pretty well on a minimum pc.  It does not require
    any special setup - but it communicates through a serial port rather
    than a game port like Dave Brown.  Graphics are pretty good - and the
    simulation is real enough - but there is no good sound.  It is hard to
    see the runway when on aproach until you are over it.  It's like flying
    with tunnel vision due to the screen size.  I think it's realistic
    enough to practice flying - especially for a beginner.  I fool around
    with the chopper more than the airplane because it is more of a
    challenge for me to fly it.
    
    Charlie
    

    I loved the Aerochopper for both fixed wing and egg-beaters.
    
    It will fly mode-1 but I was forced to fly it on mode-2. Saved my self
    $2M in parts just trying a mode-2 chopper.
    
    I found it easy to fly a plane even though the mode was wrong for me.
    Definitely the best I have tried to date. Never seemed to get that
    second invite back to use it though???. :-)
    
    
    Regards,
    
    EVL-1
    

    
       I second ( or third ) what Charlie says about Aerochopper. I have
    seen it mailorder as low as $189 for the PC version.
    
       Another alternative may be the lastest rev of the Dave Brown
    simulator. A student of mine picked up his this summer, really likes
    it, and it really helped with the learning process. I haven't actually
    seen it, but it sounds much improved from the older Dave Brown ones.
    One thing it does have is multiple pitch curves for the heli which
    Aerochopper does not. The Dave Brown is also about $50 - $60 cheaper
    than Aerochopper.
    
       One major difference between the two is that Aerochopper uses a
    Transmitter box, and Dave Brown uses a Joystick.
            

The Dave Brown simulator comes with a TX that sort of looks like an old
Kraft transmitter. It connects to a game port rather than a serial port
like Aerochopper does. I use the "egg beater" (sorry Dan'l :-)  ) feature
on the DB version I have. The other "nice" thing about the DB simulator
is the sound card support(SoundBlaster.) The chopper sounds pretty neat
(especially when you crash!) :-)

-lamar

    I'm the happy new owner of RC Aerochopper. My laptop PC runs the
    software OK with the exception that occasionally the program loses 
    "contact" with the transmitter box. I think it's due to one of my
    startup devices, so no cause for concern yet. At least, it runs fine on
    a desktop PC, so I know the software and transmitter box are OK.
    
    I need to play around with the parameters a bit to get it fly the way
    my planes feel, but all around I think it's a pretty good simulation.
    I get the biggest jollies from letting people in the office try it.
    They make the same beginner mistakes that people make on real planes!
    On the down side, the PC version doesn't have bombs and missles. And I
    wish the program supported bigger display sizes.
    
    In any case, the chopper is VERY challenging, so that should keep me
    occupied for a while. And I plan to bring it to the Mall Show. The
    Nintendo Generation should love it.
    
    Dave
    

RE:
>>   In any case, the chopper is VERY challenging, so that should keep me
>>   occupied for a while. And I plan to bring it to the Mall Show. The
>>    Nintendo Generation should love it.


Dan W. and I have been discussing this offline. We think the chopper isn't that 
challenging until you start doing inverted hovering. THAT's a challenge.  8^)

    Sorry Dan, but I disagree. I've tried the aerochopper before and 
    NO PROBLEM AT ALL FLYING INVERTED. 8^)
    
    

    
    
     Congrats Dave! I think you will live Aerochopper.
    
      Don't be discouraged, if I can figure out how to fly a chopper, you
    shouldn't have ANY problem !
    
     Steve: The trick is to get the chopper right side up again before
    contacting terra firma! :)

    
     Correction to last memo: You should LOVE Aerochopper, not LIVE
     Aerochopper! Musta got too excited for a minute! :)

    I have had Aerochopper for a couple of years and I do like it.  I wish
    they would offer some upgrades that inculde sound board support like
    some of the others have done.  The TX is still the best out there.  A
    joystick interface is not precise enough to really fly RC the way I
    want to.  I had to repair my TX once due to a bad solder joint on a
    wire going to the aileron pot.  
    
    Charlie
    

    
    Yeah sound!
    
    Then they could program in that sickening delay between you seeing the
    plane hit the deck, and hearing the THUD!  8^)
    
    Nigel
    

    Some of the flying games have great engine sounds.  I think the new
    Dave Brown has sound board support.  It would really add to the
    simulation to have better sound.  The crashes would be more fun and you
    could also program in comments from the spectators like some of the
    golf games.
    	As far as I can tell the Aerochopper has not had any improvements
    made to it in the many years it's been out.  I saw it at least 5 years
    ago on the Atari and the PC version is actually watered down from that.  
    It's too bad because it was WAY ahead of it's time 5 years ago.
    
    Charlie
    

	I have the New Dave Brown Version 4.0 of RCFS. I liked it before but enjoy
it even more now. But, no because it has sound the buzz of the engines is nice and
not too irritating and the crash is still just a thud. However what I really like is
the trees and mountains and water they added. It adds to the fun.


						Larry

    
         I just found out that Ambrosia Microcomputer Products has released
    version 2.0 of Aerochopper. The new version includes Soundblaster
    support (variety of sounds to select from, even a NO MUFFLER version).
         For us Heli flyers it includes a Jet Ranger and Concept 30 SR
    models. It also includes new scenarios, sceneries, and improvements
    in the appearance of the rotor disk on Heli's
    
         Version 2.0 is currently shipping and the street price remains
    about $199 for the works. The best part is they will sell the upgrade
    to current IBM Aerochopper owners for only $10 (includes shipping).
    Unfortunately, the only payment method they accept is a check (mine
    is in the mail! :)
            
         Address: Ambrosia Microcomputer Products
                   98 W 63rd Street, Suite 371
                  Willowbrook, Illinois 60514
                  (708)655-0610

    Dan,
    
    I wish I had known that you needed it.  I got about a month ago.
    
    
    Boy are you gonna like it!  It's ten times better than the 1.XX
    versions.
    
    Great new images and the sound is terrific.  Much more realistic in all
    respects.
    
    Chris
    

    
        I don't mind, for the price, I am more than happy to buy the
     upgrade, can't wait to get it! Maybe version 3.0 will have an A-10
     model! :)
    
    

RE: <<< Note 303.37 by WMOIS::WEIER "Keep those wings spinning!" >>>
    
>     Maybe version 3.0 will have an A-10 model! :)

Shameless plug: FLIGHT, the flight simulator done within Digital, has an A-10
model of good fidelity, including weaponry. See note 507.last in the
501CLB::FLIGHT notes conference to get a FLIGHT kit. Additional shameless plug
in the form of an overview of FLIGHT is appended to this reply. Sorry for the
digression! 
						-- Tom (part FLIGHT author)

FLIGHT V3.1 is an OpenVMS (VAX and Alpha AXP) application which provides an
interactive, real-time flight simulation environment. While running FLIGHT, the
user sees a wire-frame representation of the world around them, and a
representation of the aircraft's cockpit. Both are continuously updated in real
time. The keyboard and mouse are used to control the aircraft during the
simulation (e.g., start and stop the engine; deflect the ailerons). 

Some of FLIGHT V3.1's capabilities include:

     o	Extensive Collection of Aircraft and Worlds -- FLIGHT includes 100
	different models of aircraft (both fixed wing and rotary, and some
	vertical take-off and landing craft), along with a few ships, ground
	vehicles, the Apollo/Saturn V rocket, and other odds and ends, some
	real and some fictional (such as the NCC-1701D USS Enterprise).

	More than 20 different worlds are provided in which simulations may be
	run, covering a variety of regions (some actual and some fictional) and
	time eras, as well as some specialized worlds such as the near-Earth
	solar system.

     o	User-Created Aircraft and Worlds -- FLIGHT allows users to create new
	objects (e.g., aircraft and ships) which can then be flown or driven
	in FLIGHT. Similarly, new environments ("worlds") may be created by
	users in which simulations can then take place. Compiler and viewer
	utilities are provided with FLIGHT to facilitate this.

	The definition of an aircraft covers aerodynamic (e.g., lift and
	drag), geometric (appearance and animation), and structural (e.g.,
	wing span and chord, strength) aspects. In addition, the cockpit layout
	is completely user-defined. Instrument panels may be composed of
	arbitrarily arranged user-defined instruments. Instruments themselves
	are defined as of some basic type, ranging from the very general (dial,
	slider, digital, lamp, toggle) to the more specialized (radio, radar,
	artificial horizon, turn-slip/turn coordinator, ADF, VOR/ILS). An
	instrument may be "wired" to more than 70 virtual signal channels such
	as airspeed, altitude, throttle setting, and various radar lock data.
	Customizable aspects of an instrument range from basic parameters such
	as size and textual or numeric labeling, to details such as the shape
	of the toy airplane in an artificial horizon or the curvature and arc
	of the tube in which a turn coordinator's "ball" is suspended.

	The definition of a world covers geometric (appearance and location of
	objects), radio (frequency, type, and location), and physical (e.g.,
	gravitational) aspects.

     o	Multiple Users -- Up to seven users, running separate simulators on
	separate OpenVMS systems, may coexist together in a shared enviroment
	linked by DECnet. Each user will see all other users, and collisions
	between users' aircraft (and weapon fire) may be detected.

	Collisions may result in either partial or complete destruction of one
	or both parties, depending on such factors as the geometry of the
	collision and the strength of the aircraft or weapons. Damage can be
	evidenced in various forms, including partial or total loss of control
	(e.g., a rear hit may affect the aircraft's elevators) or engine power.

	Simulated radios may be used for communication amongst users. Radios
	may be set to different frequencies.

     o	Multi-Crew Aircraft -- An aircraft model may include up to four crew
	positions, such as pilot, copilot, navigator, gunner. Each crew
	position can have unique viewpoints and instruments, and can be
	operated by a separate user on their own workstation or display.

     o	Multiple Windows -- An aircraft may have multiple view windows (one
	facing forward and another aft, for example) and multiple instrument
	panels (e.g., a main console and an overhead panel).

     o	Multiple Viewpoints -- The user may view the environment from various
	points in or around the aircraft being flown (e.g., from the left seat
	or right seat or behind the aircraft), or the user may view the
	aircraft being flown from external viewpoints (control towers,
	mountaintops, etc.).

     o	Animated Aircraft -- An aircraft model may include moving components
	such as landing gear, bomb doors, control surfaces, and the like which
	visually illustrate the changing state of an aircraft, as well as
	autonomous components such as rotating beacons or strobes for night
	flight.

	Another use of animated components in an aircraft is to model a Head
	Up Display (HUD). FLIGHT supports simple HUDs which include velocity
	vectors, aim points, radar lock indicators, altitude/airspeed tapes,
	pitch ladders, and the like.

     o  Comprehensive Aerodynamic and Mechanical Simulation -- including
        modeling of forces on each wing-half separately (which can result in
        behaviors such as fixed-wing autorotations [spins] and adverse yaw),
        ground effect, vectored thrust, and tail dragger vs. tricyce landing
        gear.

     o	IFR Simulation -- FLIGHT models the essential features of both airborne
	and ground-based equipment to support Instrument Flight Rules
	operations. This includes working ADF recievers with NDB ground
	stations, and VOR/ILS receivers with corresponding ground stations.

     o	Multiple Vehicles per Simulation -- A simulated aircraft may deploy
	additional simulated objects. Examples include NASA's B-52N releasing
	an X-15 (provided in the kit); a bomber releasing a cruise missile
	(provided in the kit); a landing craft releasing a tank. The deployed
	object may be controlled separately from the parent craft (with its own
	views, panels, etc.) or it may be self-guiding (e.g., radar-seeking
	missile) or uncontrolled (e.g., a free-falling bomb).

     o	True 3D, Large-Scale Universe -- The environment in which simulations
	occur accurately models not only three-dimensional activity on a local
	scale (e.g., climbs and descents), but on a global and universal scale
	as well. The Earth is a true sphere in FLIGHT. A user can detect this
	via progressive curvature of the horizon as altitude increases, as well
	as by the ability to circumnavigate the globe, returning to one's point
	of origin.

	This latter capability may be achieved in a practical manner with high-
	powered craft such as rockets. FLIGHT's gravity model allows orbital
	behavior to be simulated (in real time), allowing, for example, a
	complete trip around the Earth in about 90 minutes from Low Earth Orbit
	(LEO). The strength of gravity properly attenuates with distance from
	the Earth, and is a function of the mass of the simulated object and
	the Earth. The Apollo/Saturn V model included in the kit has been used
	to achieve stable low Earth orbits lasting a week (real time).

	FLIGHT supports multiple planets (termed "masses") in a single
	environment. Examples include the Earth and the Moon, or two asteroids.
	The masses may have different sizes, masses, and atmospheres.

	The possible extent of a simulated environment is very large. Objects
	and distances may range from the very small (e.g., details of doorways
	on buildings) to the very large (e.g., planets separated by a few
	light-years) within a single environment, all to a consistent linear
	scale.

     o	Terrain Handling -- A simulated enviroment may include arbitrary
	landforms or other impeneterable objects. FLIGHT models the surface
	contours of such objects, to allow for ridges, valleys, tunnels,
	bridges, etc. which may be driven over with surface vehicles or flown
	around/through with air vehicles. Separate land and water surfaces may
	exist on which only suitably equipped vehicles can operate (e.g.,
	automobiles, ships, or amphibious craft).