Conference vmszoo::rc

    
    
    I can invisage some envigorating discussion on this point.
    
    Let me add:
      o - it takes a long time to learn to crash gracefully.

      o - however it really improves your skill at repairing
          and  subsequently  flying  badly  warped  and over
          weight planes which prefer flying at negative
          altitudes.
    
	Good luck
        John Mackney
                                                        
    

    Jim,  how are you at building planes?  How are you at patching planes
    up?  How are you at handling frustrations?  How are you under pressure?
    Got some extra time and money?
    
    If you can answer GOOD to all the above, by all means teach yourself.
    
    However, if you would like to get into the air soon, and enjoy this
    summer flying, get an instructor!
    
    I taught myself how to fly last summer, and it took about 15-20 crashes
    which cost me one plane w/ engine to learn.  The only advantage was as
    mentioned in  re:1, is that now I can handle some pretty rough trimming
    and come out in one piece.  One disadvantage, is I spent many many many
    hours in repair and few minutes flying.  It took up most of the summer.
    
    Get and instructor.  They say it takes about 5 flight lessons before
    you can fly pretty much un-aided.  (cheaper too!)
    
    Ken

    
    	Jim,
    		On a three channel airframe if it's flying at you
    and you move the right control stick of a four channel radio
    away and to the right of yourself what would the plane do?
    If you thought more than 1/2 of a second you have just crashed
    your plane.  GOOD LUCK YOU"LL NEED IT.
    
    					Tom
    
    		

If you go to a club field there will most certainly be someone there
who will be willing to help you.  All you have to do is ask.

GET AN INSTRUCTOR.

If you don't - you'll wish you would have.

              _!_
Bye        ----O----
Kay R. Fisher / \
 
==============================================================

If you can find an instructor, by all means take advantage of him/her.  I just
learned to fly last summer, with the help of an instructor.  I spent a lot of
time flying and very little in the shop.

I for one could not imagine learning to fly without an instructor.

-scott

    Although you have had some experience building u-control planes,
    I would advise talking to people in RC about building tips.  I had
    built and flown many control line models in the past, and there
    are a few differences.  For example, generally the center span of
    the wing on a u control is not fiberglassed.  In an RC job, it is
    a good idea to fiberglass the center of the wing due to the added
    forces on the wing an RC model is apt to be exposed to.  
    Ken
    

    I'll add my voice to the unanimous din... I've tried both with and
    without an instructor:
    
    	UNLESS YOU'RE VERY LUCKY, YOU WILL CRASH WITHOUT AN INSTRUCTOR!!
                      ====            ====
    
    Have the patience and take the time to learn to fly properly; I
    still here my instructor screaming DON'T SLAP THE STICK every time
    I fly.
    
    PS- Colin:  Enjoy the sailplane and radio... GET AN INSTRUCTOR!
    
    PPS- Tom: That was a great answer earlier in this note!
    

    frank need plane first not here yet will find instructor
    
    colin

    Learning without an instructor is possible, I did it with patience
    and lots of glue.  But all I can say is DON'T TRY IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Aside from the frustration of crashing the first several times you try
    to fly, there is a REAL safety issue.  If you lose your plane you
    could kill someone several miles away!!  I have been instructing
    since joining my club, because I know what it's like to try to learn
    on your own.  I almost quit the hobby because of the frustration
    of trying one flight and spending the weekend repairing the plane.
    	Join the AMA (insurance coverage, good safety guidelines, etc),
    join a club, and get an instructor!!!  They're free, they enjoy
    doing it, and you'll save your plane from certain damage.  Most
    clubs will not allow a student to fly without an instructor, and
    for good reason.
    	By the way, I have found that the average time to get a student
    soloing is one full summer.  But it depends a lot on how often you
    get out there.  I have seen people pick it up almost immediately,
    but it is VERY rare.  Landing is by far the hardest thing
    to learn.  Good luck, you'll enjoy the hobby if you get off on the
    right foot!
    							Bill

    P.S. I don't think control line experience helps much for learning
         how to fly RC.
    

    re -.1
    By all means use an instructor. Not just some flyer who thinks he
    can instruct, either. Make sure it's somebody who KNOWS HOW to
    instruct. You don't want you and your plane to be the guinea pig
    for a beginner instructor!
    
    Bill (previous reply) was my instructor. While my first plane was
    on the bench I spent a lot of time at the field watching Bill instruct
    several other guys and I knew that he was a great instructor - he's
    since proved it: He taught ME how to fly.
    
    Dave

    	I would like to set the record straight concerning instructors.
    Anyone who thinks that they will learn faster on their own rather
    than with a QUALIFIED instructor is kidding themselves.  All of
    the guys that I fly with are fairly new to the hobby and I myself
    have only been flying for three seasons.  We all could still benefit
    from organized instruction.  We were all fortunate to have Bill
    Lewis as an instructor.  Bill has the interest and the patience
    to teach as well as the ability to quickly respond when a beginner
    screws up.  Bill knows when a student makes an error and he explains
    what he should have done to correct it.  If there is time, he has
    the student correct his mistake, if not, he grabs the box and makes
    the save.  Bill tells me that he flys the plane in his head while
    the student is flying.  This reduces his reaction time to a student's
    mistake.  I have seen other instructors that completely ignore the
    student when he is flying until he yells for help, usually after
    it is too late.  
    	Most of us are now accomplished sport flyers, but we could still
    benefit from organized instruction.  I would really enjoy working
    on my skills with an expert pattern flyer, but I haven't had that
    opportunity yet.  I know that I am developing bad habits when I
    learn a new manuver on my own.  All I can do now is keep practicing
    what I know.  If I get an opportunity to learn from someone with
    more experience, I will jump at it.
    	One last thing about instructors.  The title does not necessarily
    guarantee competence.  Many of the "instructors" at our field (CMRCM)
    are not very qualified to teach.  They are only capable of taking
    off your trainer, and then landing it for you after you have driven
    it around.  If you get in trouble, you'r done for.  I have seen
    many frustrated students standing around waiting for someone to
    help them take off and land.  I remember how frustrated I was when
    I showed up at the field wanting to fly before I had soloed.  The
    result at our field is many students who solo before they are ready
    to overcome their frustration of waiting for help.  This is costly
    to them in equipment and dangerous to everyone because they are
    not really ready to fly without help.  It is really too bad that
    there are not more good instructors like Bill.
    
    Charlie
    

    re -.117,
    
    	Having been one that also learned to fly on my own, unless you
    are really into the balsa and glue market, get a good instructor!

    				-Mike
    

    Use an Instructor!  I was self taught and it cost me a plane and
    an engine.  At the present, I am teaching two guys how to fly. 
    Now by no means do I consider myself an instructor! But I can at
    least get them solo qualified....  Just last week I pulled a 
    beautiful save.... the plane for no reason started diving off
    to its left side.  I quickly killed the engine and fought it
    all the way in, countering each twisted plunge.  It was stil trying
    when I was only 3 ft. off the ground, but I managed a beautiful
    2 pt. landing.  My student was so thankful....he just kept on 
    praising me for knowing how to fly so good.....................
    He doesn't know how close he came to losing his plane.  I gave
    it up as soon as I got the controls...but said " I'll try to get
    her down!"   Again, I'm no instructor, but I can get someone started.
    
    I myself would like to have a qualified flyer to show  me the ropes
    in stunt flying, its real difficult trying to learn it on your own.
    
    
    Ken

    My only experience with RC is reading this file, today.  So, the
    big question for me is what do I get first, the plane or the 
    instructor?   Everyone here seems to agree that an instructor is
    needed.  Perhaps the instructor is the best one to point out whats
    the best package to start out with.
    
    My son is a senior at UNH and wants an RC plane for Christmas. 
    I'm now thinking, after reading through this file, that maybe I
    should not just up & buy one.  Is there a club at UNH, anyone?
    
    What is the ANA?  How does one join?
    
    

    and don't forget that somebody (you, your son or both of you) will
    have to shell out about $300-$400 before you get into the air.
    
    md

  ...ahh yes, here we are.  Well Al, my memory's been jogged enough,
and I finally remembered something that might be worthy of RAMBLINGS.
Here goes...

Way back in 1979 (you see, I'm a true old-timer), I got my "start" in
RC.  I was a senior at UNH, co-opping at GE in Somersworth, Cow Hampshire.
I'm an avid hockey fan and player, and one fall day I busted my ankle
playing my favorite sport.  With nothing to do but sit around the apartment
and collect paychecks from GE (with my darlin' wife of one year working
all day), I decided to build a Sterling Corsair kit from the local hobby
shop.  Keep in mind, I had no knowledge whatsoever about this hobby.

Well, I dove right into it, 12 hours a day or more, for a week or two.
It was done in no time (compared to the time it takes me to build now),
and it looked pretty durn good to me.  The plans showed how to add
engine and radio equipment, that's when it dawned on me that this thing
just had to FLY.  We're talkin' a 36" wing span CORSAIR, mind you.  So I
bought a Cox .15 engine and a Futaba 2-channel setup (100 bucks way
back then).  Who needs more than 2 channels?  Ailerons turn the thing,
elevator makes it go up and down.

Now the plans include these flight instructions, ya see, and although
they do say you should enlist the help of an instructor, they also go on
to completely explain how to hand launch the thing.  I dug up the old
plans, and I swear this is a quote: "...inexperienced flyers may cause the
model to crash if it hasn't sufficient altitude, and in most cases the
model will recover its flight path if controls are simply left alone."
Piece o' cake, right?  Just let the thing fly itself until you can figger
out how to fly it yourself!

So heres the good part.  One fine saturday I call a couple buddies (I'm
still in a cast, but who cares, this is gonna be easy!).  We find a corn
field in Dover, NH.  Get the engine running (requires lots of priming),
check the control movements, and we're ready to go.  Explain to my buddy
how to hand launch (as described in the plans), and off he goes.  A
mighty heave and it's off!  That mighty Cox powerplant screams at the
heavens as she noses up, goes through the best set of snap rolls I've
ever done, and dives into the ground.  Jeeze, I'm pullin back on the
stick, isn't the D**N thing suppose to climb?  I don't know how, but she caught
fire after the crash!  As I hobble over to the crash site I notice the
cowl melting away before my very eyes.  The flames weren't visible, but
that baby was BURNIN'!  I guess the interior of the cowl got covered with
raw fuel during the priming process.  My buddies are layin' on the ground
in tears at this point.

Well, we got the flames out and that was the first and last flight of the
Sterling Corsair.  I later bought a foam Cessna trainer and pounded it
into trees, roads, cornfields, you name it, until G** D**N it I flew
that bugger!   Then I got my old buddies back out there to see that it
CAN BE DONE!

Now you see why I strongly recommend finding an instructor?

Bill

    $300-$400, wow!!  Well it's obviously time to tell my son that
    there isn't a Santa.  We have tried to spare him the emotional
    upheaval, he is a sensitive child after all, but $300-$400!  
    
    (Now how can I go about it?  "Hey kid, shut up and sit down, I got 
    somethin' to tell ya!"  Yes, that ought to do nicely.)
         
    Re. .17, tell me more.  What kid of "trainer"?  What does it look
    like?  How big?  etc.
    
    

    re .19
    
    well you can ease the pain: buy a kit ($45), maybe an engine ($50)
    
    for the rest (covering $15, glue $5, misc parts for airplane $20, 
    AMA $40, fuel $10, booster battery for engine $10, fuel pump $10,
    RC box $175-$200), tell him he is on his own. It don't have to all
    gotten at once and besides, he probably old enough to work for it..
    
    
    md
    

    for a gorier story on costs see note 49 & Kay Fisher's accounting
    of his first 2 planes.. It'll pop your eyeballs.
    
    md

    THERE'S ALSO A HECK OF A DEAL (IF I SAY SO MYSELF!) ON A READY TO
    FLY TRAINER PACKAGE IN NOTE 342!
    
    GIVE ME A CALL AT DTN 348-2244 IF YOU'D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THE TRAINER,
    OR ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT RC EITHER!  (I'LL HELP AS BEST I CAN.)
    
    FRANK.

    Join a club, get an instructor(s), otherwise unless your flying
    skills are much much much better than a typical beginner, you'll
    most likely crash. And most likely you'll crash badly. Nothing
    worse than spending 30 seconds in the air and 30 hours in the shop
    fixing a wreaked plane.. This can easily turn you off to the sport.
    I started with a PT40 with alerons (sp?) and with the help of several
    instructors in CRRC I never crashed the plane while in their capable
    hands.. Can't say I never crashed in my "sort'a capable" hands.
    
    			Enjoy, It's a great hobby/sport...... Dave
    

    I sold my PT40 after many successful flights. Yep, I crashed it
    a couple of times, but not bad (it was fixable). I was SMART
    I did not even try to fly it. Went right over to a field, broke
    down, and asked for help... NO problem, lots of willing help was
    there. I can still remember last April the first time I saw it
    slowly head up in the air. The instructor commented on how well
    it flew, sure looked easy. After all this was a trainer (with Alerons)
    (Have Keith put them in, otherwise he will curse that he did not
    later. Providing that he still has the plane). Anyway the plane
    is up about 200 feet and the sticks are handed to me. Just do a
    simply turn says the instructor. "Holy *hit" I say to myself, "this
    thing is a *itch to fly" Just a little stick movement and it's all
    over the sky". And heading for the ground rather quickly. I still
    had a plane that day, the instructor took the transmitter and brought
    it back up to a good height. About 10 flights later I could solo.
    About 15 flights later I took off by myself. About 20 flights later
    I decided to land it myself. Even with a instructor by my side coaching
    me I landed far from the runway, into the dirt. No damage other
    than dirt and cocked wing, that was fixed with the rubber bands
    that held the wing on. 
    
    
    Today a year later I LOVE to fly, had my share of crashes that I
    caused, except for one. But without all those that helped, including
    many from this notesfile, I KNOW that I would have had a pile of
    sticks, and a very discouraged attitude.
    
    
    The choice is yours.. I have never asked anybody to test fly my
    2'nd or 3'rd planes on the maiden voyage. This is because I gained
    enough confidence through instructors, and others to get me where
    I am today.
    
    
    
    						Dave
    

    
    		If you don't get an instructor stand behind the plane
    and fly straight away fromyou. In general the plane is mush easier
    to	handle when it's going away from you. Start from a high hill
    so you will have a longer flight (i.e. before it goes out of sight).
    Don't ever turn the plane because then you will surely crash it.
    If you want to find out safely take your airplane out in your yard
    paint a square line with lime. TAXI the plane around the square.
    See how well you stay on the line (no fair standing in the middle
    or following it around). This is easy compared to flying it.
    
    		Even good instructos can crash a plane on a test flight.
    I had one of mine pucked in. Remeber these people are helping you
    and things can happen. But their probability of bringing the plane
    back is much much higher than yours. P.S. Do you refuse to wear
    seat belts because you'd rather be "thrown free" of the burning
    wreck.
    
    		On my first plane I had an instructor for a number of
    flights. I then flew on my own because I thought I was ready. I
    in fact got three flights in before I had to by another airplane
    and "go back to school". I now have 5 planes including the plane
    I bought to go back to school with, and my son learned to fly on
    the same plane, and its still flying.
                  

	I'll stick my oar in - for what it's worth.

Firstly :-

	If you want to learn to FLY (yes - you do have to LEARN) then get a 
good instructor.
	If you want to learn to CRASH (no - you don't have to LEARN) then 
have a go yourself.

	CRASHING is expensive, frustrating, demoralising and can be extremly 
DANGEROUS (and very often needless). It is also very easy!
	FLYING, on the other hand, cannot be described in so few words (or 
maybe it can - FANTASTIC!) but is not nearly so easy (certainly not as easy 
as any experienced pilot makes it look!). It is also cheaper and SAFER.


Secondly :-

	I know the feeling of "It's MY pride and joy - if anyone is going to 
wreck it's going to be ME!" only too well - everyone does I'm sure. But 
having picked up the pieces (and run for my life on the first occasion!) I 
know now that if there's one sure way to make match-wood out of your lovely 
new ship, it's to try and fly it by yourself. Any plane, no matter how badly 
built or set-up, stands a FAR greater chance of survival in the hands of an 
experienced pilot! (who will probably point out any likely faults before 
attempting to fly it). Even the best set-up, easiest to fly, trainer in the 
world  is likely to be reduced to a 'bag job' in seconds at the hands of an 
unguided novice.

	I won't bore you with my tails of woe, I would just say that the 
hardest and most expensive flying lesson I learned was that an instructor is
INVALUABLE! 

Ken.

    Patty,
    If Keith wants to learn to fly by himself, I hope he has both
    alot of patience and a large wallet.  So far everyone has been
    talking of the obvious; the crashes.  Once he has mastered 
    getting the plane in the air and flying away from him, there
    comes the problem of orientation.  Without experience, most
    RC pilots get bothered by not being to tell if the plane
    is coming toward you or away from you.  This sounds so obvious,
    but it is not, especially if the plane is too far away.  This
    is the point in which many people have lost a plane.  Not just
    crashed, but the plane has flown away, and believe me, the odds
    of ever getting it back are small, especially if there are woods
    around.  I will keep my eyes on the RC swap file to see when Keith
    gets out of the hobby.  If there is only a transmitter, no receiver,
    no servos, no engine, then I will know it was a fly-away.

		________
	 /	  __|__  
	=========[_____\>
	/	__|___|__/  BREAK A BLADE,
			    Ken    	

    OK - here's my $0.02 worth.
    
    Ken Lee a coupla replies back hit it on the head .... trying to
    learn to fly without expert help is DANGEROUS (apologies for shouting).
    
    Personally I don't care how much it may cost the guy to learn the
    hard way in terms of his hard-earned cash, I also don't care how
    frustrated he may get BUT ( there I go shouting again - sorry )
    I am concerned how safe he may be.
    
    It is all too easy to get out of shape and not recover and failing
    to recover may cost someone else ( an innocent bystander ).
    
    Any behaviour which places others at risk is injurious to our hobby
    and is not acceptable.
    
    If you don't have the sense to try someone elses hobby their way
    ( safely ) then go try something else!
    
    At my clay shooting club for instance, even if you declare yourself
    to be an experienced gun you are very quickly asked politely to
    leave and not come back if you display any signs of not being 100%
    safe.
    
    So it should be at any flying ground and even if you use your own
    ground then you deserve to be corrected if there is ANY chance of
    you putting others at risk.
                               
    Hoping that sense prevails and apologies to regular noters for what
    was not intended to be, but turned out to be a bit of a tirade.
    
    Flamed out - anyone want to hit the igniter.
    
    Brian
    

    One other thing......trimming. I don't know about the rest of you
    fliers with Top Gun reflexes, but I was on my third or fourth plane
    before I was able to get a new/rebuilt (ie untrimmed) plane into
    the air and high enough to trim it properly. I suspect that even
    a stable trainer could need a lot of trimming, especially if built
    by a novice.
    
    Conclusion: if you need someone to trim, why not get an instructor
    anyway?  This is apart from all the excellent reasons discussed
    previously.
    
    Regards
    Tony
    

    re  Note 4.277 31-JUL-1990 08:46 by LTDRVR::RASPUZZI 

>>I haven't found it too difficult learning on my own but I think it helps that
>>I have taken pilots lessons before and understand aerodynamics well.  

    Mike, several of us have flown full scale and feel that it is _not_ an
    aid to learning RC control.  RC has new and different problems that you
    will need to learn to handle.  Orientation/reactions is one.  The lack
    of an instrument panel and a visible horizon is another.

    Your good luck is deceiving you.


    Alton, an ex-pilot and inept RC'er