Conference vmszoo::rc

    I happen to have an extra application for 1987 membership. Send
    me your mailstop and I'll forward it off to you. Or, if you'd rather
    go direct:
    
    	Academy of Model Aeronautics
    	1810 Samuel Morse Drive
    	Reston, VA  22090
    
    	(703) 435-0750
    
    Dave
    
    

Re: .190

Al,

The Oz structure is a little complex. We have the MAAA (Model Aeronautical
Association of Australia) whose only members are the State governing bodies
like RCAS (NSW), VMAA (Victoria), MAAQ (Queensland), etc. They form the MAAA
Council. Some state bodies have individual members and some state bodies (eg.
RCAS) only have Clubs as members. All decisions are made by the council using 
a simple voting system of 3 votes per state.

If you understand the population distribution of OZ; that is about 60-70%
concentrated along the eastern sea border and 100 miles inland between Brisbane
and Melbourne; the difficulty is without a State structure for the MAAA the
small states such as Tasmania and the northern Territory would have little if
any say in the proceedings of the MAAA. We (RCAS) are the largest state body
with 2,500 members, Northern Territory (NT) is the smallest with 60 members. We
both have the same voting power. 

A move is afoot to adopt the AMA type structure but it is being opposed by the 
smaller states as they will lose some say in the MAAA policy. I personally 
believe we will have centralized membership but still maintain the council as 
governing body.

The MAAA organizes our insurance for all modellers who are members of the state 
associations. Visiting modellers who are members of their national body (eg. 
AMA) become associate members of the MAAA at no charge for the duration of the 
stay and hence are covered by our insurance policy.

We are fortunate that Liability Insurance has not escalated as much as the US. 
I think I recall the figure of $35,000PA for the 7,000 members. In general we 
in Oz don't have the same Sue-Crazy mentality that appears to have taken over 
the US, regrettably there are sign's of that coming to Oz.

John.

    A little issue arose in another topic which prompted me to wonder
    if all of us who fly R/C are AMA members.  I feel like I should
    give AMA membership a plug, even though I happen to be one of it's
    severest critics, relative to the politics, money [mis] management
    and myriad other issues/complaints.
    
    The plain and simple fact is, like it or not, we participate in
    a hobby which is not generally accepted by the public as a legitimate
    hobby/sport/pastime.  We are [to my everlasting chagrin] perceived
    by John Q. Public as a bunch of overgrown boys who never matured
    enough to put away our toys [Ugh! I hate that term].  In fact, in
    the eyes of the average John Q., we constitute little more than
    a nuisance element to be pitied for our lack of maturity and only
    tolerated as long as we don't annoy someone.  The noise problem
    and the ever diminishing number of flying sites, particularly in
    the east and other high population-density areas are undisputable
    proof that this perception is fact, not just some pipe-dream conjured
    up by some alarmist element.
    
    It requires the strength of a large, national organization to try
    to fight this perception and protect our right to pursue our chosen
    hobby/sport with the same freedom as any golfer, tennis player,
    hunter, fisherman, racquet-ball enthusiast, ad infinitum!  The sorry
    truth of the matter is, however, that it'd only take one spectacular,
    bad accident to give us ALL a black-eye and further jeopardize our
    ability to pursue our hobby and, if the principle(s) involved in
    such an incident happened to be free-lance mavericks with inadequate
    or no liability coverage, just watch how quick the protectors of
    the public move to hamper, impede or ban the pursuit of our
    recreation!!
    
    Like the organization [AMA] or not, if you fly R/C, you simply cannot
    afford NOT to belong, if only for the insurance protection which
    comes from membership.  The price [dues] is dirt-cheap considering
    the liability protection obtained and, if you extract the average
    cost of a major model mag subscription from the membership fee,
    the insurance is damn near free!!  Believe me, it's just awful hard
    to beat a deal like that.
    
    OK, so you don't like groups/organizations, you prefer to pursue
    the hobby on yer' own or with a select group of friends. Then, by
    all means, DON'T belong to a club but "DO" become an AMA member
    `cause know this, you may "think" that yer' the only one responsible
    for yer' actions but if you have an accident, particularly through
    negligence or irresponsible operation of yer' model, YOU are NOT
    the only one who will suffer...the consequences will be felt by
    EVERYONE who builds and flies radio control models and, I guarantee
    you won't be warmly thought of if such an event should occur.  The
    strength of the 160,000 strong membership of the AMA can serve as
    a protective buffer and bring all its power to bear to soften the
    impact on everyone, not just the involved party(ies).
    
    I strongly encourage you to join the AMA immediately if yer' not
    already a member.  Avail yer'self of the protection and services
    available and become a part of the ONLY voice we have lobbying to
    protect our hobby and our right to pursue it.
    
    End of sermon.  I know all responsible modelers can readily see
    the wisdom of belonging to the AMA, regardless of the fact that
    [like myself] you may not like or agree with all policies and practices
    of the organization.  The simple fact is that it is the ONLY voice
    we have and it makes me nervous to realize that there are non-members
    somewhere out there who could severely limit or prohibit my enjoyment
    of the greatest hobby going by not coming under the protective umbrella
    AMA provides.
    
    Please give it some serious thought..., adios,	Al 

    Dave,
    	First thing you do is get the AMA liscense for yourself. You'll
    need it to join a club, the insurance is definitly worth it, and
    the Model Aviation Magazine is one of the best. As for your son,
    according to the application I have in front of me, you have three
    options, depending on your son's age. 
    
    1. If he is under 15 by July 1, 1988, he can be either a Junior Full
    Member w/mag for $16.00, or without mag for $7.00.
    
    2. If he is over 15, but not 19 by July1, 1988, he can become either
    a Senior Full Member w/mag for $18.50, or w/o mag for $9.50.
    
    3. If he is 19 or over by July 1, 1988, he can get an Extra Family
    Membership for $20.00.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Dan
    

    I'm not sure the example in the previous reply is the best one,
    since flying in a stadium full of people is a violation of the
    AMA safety standards and thus would nullify the insurance.
    
    The most practical reason for insurance is that in this day of
    litigation many landowners won't allow people or clubs to use
    their land unless they have liability insurance. In reality,
    it is a very safe sport and the incidents of serious injury or
    death, although they do happen, are few and far between. There
    has not been a major claim against the AMA insurance for years.
    
    Most of the clubs are AMA chartered clubs, and you have to be an AMA
    member to belong to the club or use their flying site. Since insurance
    coverage comes with the AMA membership, it will be all taken care of
    anyway. AMA membership is $40/year, which includes a subscription to
    their monthly magazine "Model Aviation", plus the insurance coverage.
    An additional benefit is that you're supporting the main national
    organization that represents our hobby to the public and the
    government. 
    
    Dave

    
    This doesn't have anything to do with Ultracote, but to answer your
    question about CMRCM (or any other club I know about) - no, you
    won't be able to fly without AMA insurance.  CMRCM allows you a
    guest flight if you aren't a member but do have AMA insurance, but
    expects you to join the club if you are going to be flying there
    regularly.
    
    Before you send in your AMA application, your best bet is to decide
    on what club you want to join, then let the club treasurer send
    in your application.  As soon as it goes into the mail you are
    covered by the insurance and can join that club.  If you send it
    in yourself you have to wait for the AMA to send back proof that
    you are insured before you will be able to join a club.  They
    do have a way of expediting this return proof, but having the club
    treasurer mail the application is the best way.
    
    Bill

    Loren, thanks for all the great support.  I will definitely take you up
    on the offer to go over the bird before any glue is applied.
    
    I already sent in my AMA application, but that was at least two weeks
    ago.  Are they always this slow??
    
    Thanks again,
    -Joe

    Joe,
    
    Unfortunately, the answer is yes...the AMA is _horribly_ slow
    processing new applications.  Hold onto yer' cancelled check and be
    patient; the license will turn up eventually.  On the other side of the
    coin, if you return the form promptly after receiving same, they do much 
    better processing renewals of existing licenses.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    I called the AMA this morning about possibly temporary coverage for 
    visitors from a foreign land other than those who are entering a 
    sanctioned event.  Here is what I learned:

            
    Associate ??? membership:  (intended for foreign visitors)
    
        Offered to residents of another country who are affiliated with
        an organization there that is roughly similar to the AMA.
        
        $10 per year --- apply to the [usual] AMA membership department
        
        Application must include a photocopy of the foreign documentation
        
        Provides coverage while flying in the US
    
        
    Guest membership:   (intended for people uncertain of their interest)
        
        Offered to US citizens only
        
        $7 for a thirty day period

    
    I'm concerned with JUST WHAT WILL AMA COVER!  I've been hearing
    stories about AMA not covering accidents UNTIL you have completely
    exhausted all your means of reconciliation.  If that's the case,
    then whats the sense in paying for AMA coverage?  Is there any 
    cases that have been paid by AMA?  
    
    I'm ready to send in my application, but until I get this cleared
    up, I'm holding on to it.  
    
    Ken

    Ken,
    
    	I guess this is dependent on how much money must be paid to
    cover the liability. Case in point is the guy who taught me how
    to fly in Derry NH. Back in those daye (1982) we used to fly out
    the industrial park. We'd park in the cannary lot and fly off of
    the road. Little traffic then. One night he took off and was flying
    around. A ship of his own design similar in size and design to
    a Kaos 40. Then the ship rolls over and heads for earth. We marked
    where we thought it went in and proceeded to walk over. 
    
    What we found later after an hours looking was that the plane had
    hit a metal roofed building. The plane had come to rest on the roof.
    The engine (a fox 45) had pierced the metal roof and could clearly
    be seen on the floor of the building (I know, I was on the roof
    looking threw the hole). He went to the owner the next day and the
    rest is history. We did not fly from a sanctioned AMA field.
    
    My buddies home owners paid app. 80% of the bill to replace (not
    patch) the metal panel of the roof. This left my buddy with a 300.00
    bill to be paid. AMA paid the 300.00 bucks.  At that time I think
    AMA was 25.00 or 30.00 for a year. He had been an AMA member for
    12 years before this incident. I figure he got a good deal.
    
    
    Tom

Well, for all the AMA bashing we do, at least I do, its still the
best organization of its kind in the world, and well worth the
membership even without regard to the insurance.

As I've stated before, their insurance is locked into paying
claims, to their detrement, and this alone will be increasingly
important as we head for the Brave New World of 1991.

All clubs with AMA sanction require membership, and you're crazy
for flying anyplace else, with the exception of an electric
"schoolyard scale" type plane.  Its just too dangerous in an
uncontrolled environment. 

In addition, Model Aviation, for all its politics and spouting of
the AMA Party Line, is a first rate publication, in itself worth
the price of a subscription to RCM -- when you think in terms of
deducting their current price from your membership fee, the
balance becomes chicken feed (hey, I'm smoking a fat cigar today,
ask me if its chicken feed in another six months!).

Besides its absolutely priceless to drop the fact that you 
belong to the AMA at cocktail parties.  I prefer to specialize in
Internal Medicine.

    
    Ken,
    My understanding is that the AMA insurance does pick up where your
    own insurance leaves off.  I don't see anything wrong with that,
    in fact that's probably the best way (to keep our yearly AMA
    membership fee reasonable).  Most people join AMA just so they can
    join a club and/or get the magazine.  Good enough reason for me!
    
    Bill

    
    Okay, I guess I see the big picture.  My concern was you were paying
    for nothing (insurance wise).  I figured why pay for another insurance
    when you've already got coverage  ie. homeowners, renters, whatever...
    
    As long as I am covered in case of a serious accident, and I do
    believe the Chipmunk w/OS.90FS could do serious damage, and one
    coverage picks up where the other left off then its okay.  I guess
    I'd feel like a real RC'er once I have my very own AMA number.
    
    Thanks for the input guys.
    
    
    Ken

    This was written in response to off-line questions about AMA
    membership being required by local clubs.  It is reproduced here
    for comments and pot-shots.
    
>>  Why do local clubs require the pilots to be AMA members 

    Convenience and naivete.  Clubs are not formed with the assistance of
    lawyers and with attention to all the possibilities that might occur.
    Clubs are formed by carpenters, truck drivers, store clerks, engineers,
    and mechanics that decide to fly together.  ...... They don't think of
    [some possible exceptions] when they write their governing rules and
    their contracts with the owners of the flying field(s).  They want
    insurance for the organization, for the relationship with the
    landowner, and for any events they may host; the AMA supplies such
    insurance without hassle, and all members are already AMA members, so
    they specify the AMA as a requirement.  There are no other such
    insuring organizations that I know of.  They could allow individually
    negotiated insurances, but then they would have to keep reviewing the
    insurance contracts --- a bother and a risk. 

    So it is not a matter of a Machiavellian monopoly, merely what the
    clubs happen to require.

Well, Dan isn't the only one with a bad day today 8^( I called the AMA to find
out about the status of my membership and found out some interesting news. See,
back in 1992 with the proposed increases in membership, I opted for the 2 year
plan to cover both 1993 and 1994 memberships. Now in 1993 I CD'd a contest which
gets me a free year's membership (for 1994). I ASSuMEd that they would roll over
my membership so I would be paid for this year (especially when they didn't send
me a renewal form). WRONG! It appears that they only have a box that states
"renewed for next year" and no matter how many times if gets checked, it's just
a single year. So, silly me, I renewed for two years but the second year was
wasted money 8^(

Yup, Steve, I'm gonna write a letter!

Jim

    I'd WRITE A LETTER NOW.........
    
    Oh, never mind, you already said that. 8^)
    
    You DID get ripped off though.
    
    

    Over the last year I have become less than satisfied with the AMA.  I
    have renewed for 1995, but that may be my last year.
    
    I am a founding member and Vice President of a new club here - Midwest Air
    Wing R/C Club.  We chose an SFA charter for may reasons, but the
    bottomline is they are easy to work with and let you do the right
    things.
    
    Chris
    

	RE .-1

	I agree, Our club had a float fly in Thompson Conn. this summer and
we had to turn two people away because they were SFA members not AMA members.
I am seriously thinking of asking that our club either consider dual charter or
maybe getting rid of AMA all together.


			Larry

Yeah, it's a pain in the butt but the liability insurance issues will probably
keep you from having dual coverage.

I'm in Southbridge... what club flies in Thompson (just over the border)

Jim

    In my opinion if SFA wants more members they will have to start
    sponsoring events and allow AMA insured members to participate.
    
    The AMA currently has a monopoly by sponsoring events and requiring
    AMA membership(which includes insurance).
    
    Insurance is insurance whether it is provided via AMA or SFA.

Right. Insurance IS insurance but double coverage by competing firms is a
p!ssing contest

    RE the last two replies
    
    SFA insurance is primary pay; not secondary as is AMA.  SFA wins here.
    
    SFA does sanction events and they are open to both AMA and SFA.  AMA 
    excludes the other.  Score two for SFA.
    
    The club that we just formed under SFA sponsorship is open to SFA or
    AMA cardholders.  SFA only requires that the 5 charter memebrs be SFA
    individual members.  AMA loses again.
    
    I can provide other incidences where SFA appears superior as well.
    
    I am not trying to bash AMA here; just stating the facts!
    
    Happy flying,
    

>>>I'm in Southbridge... what club flies in Thompson (just over the border)


	I live in Webster and belong to the "Yankee Flyers of Conneticut". We
fly at a field just off of RT395 in ATTAWAGAN Conneticut ( about 15 miles s. of
Webster).

				Larry

I know where you guys are. That's not too far for me if I head down Rt169 into
Putnum. When we used to go down to my parents' place in CT we used to get the
kids all going looking for the Attawagan, because the sign on the overpass says
"Attawagan Crossing" 8^)

Got room for a Gremlin flier? open membership? Any hobby stores down that way to
check out? (have you been to Hog Heaven in Sturbridge?)

Probably should let me know offline

Jim (Ranger::) Reith

    I just called AMA to find out where the H*LL my membership is.  I gave
    her my number and she said "You're Andrew J Barber?" Yes.  "Your
    address is 150 Centennial St. #1?"  WHAT?!@  How they managed to
    confuse Central with Centennial , I have no idea.  What ever they are
    on over there, they should double the dosage.  Would it be reasonable
    to ask for a month free next year?
    
    andy
    

Maybe they'll send you extra magazines 8^)

Unfoirtunately, they don't prorate the memberships

    I wonder what the post office did with the magazines.  I guess they
    must have returned them to the sender.  But then the AMA should have
    known they had the wrong address.  Or maybe I can go to the PO and see
    if they had been reading them.  Whatever the case, I think the AMA owes
    me *something*.  And I will get something out of them if takes 20
    years!
    
    

Put on Steve Smith disguise...

"Write a letter!"

(I HAD to 8^)

    NO impersonations allowed. 8^)
    
    Just out of curiosity, what address was on the check you sent in. They
    might argue your handwriting was hard to read, but if it was PRINTED
    on the check????????
    
    Trouble is, the AMA being what they are, I'm not sure what you could
    get out of them in the way of compensation. It's not like they can
    send you a free radio or something.
    
    If I was going to push them for something, (and the address was PRINTED
    on the check), I'd probably say I couldn't renew my club membership
    because you couldn't proove AMA membership, so now you'll have to REPAY
    the initiation fee. Tell them you paid $20 in entrance fees to fly in
    a mid winter freeze fly and then couldn't fly because you didn't have
    your AMA (and couldn't get your $20 bucks back).
    
    Then push em for a free membership next year. Then forget the whole
    thing cause they probably won't do anything anyway.
    
    Then again, you could go to the WRAM show and talk with the AMA 
    IN PERSON...........8^)

    Yeah, my address IS printed on my check.  There should be no excuse
    there!  I bet if I bitch and complain once a day for a year straight
    that they would pay me off just to get me off their backs.  I can be
    REALLY annoying when I need to be.
    
    

    
    
    MY BOY.......

    While I in no way defend AMA for its actions, I don't believe that
    the address on the check is of much use...  They are likely to 
    receive the application, mark it as paid and send all the checks
    to the bean counters.  Then, the application is handed to the 
    data folks who were probably the ones that screwed it up...
    
    Now, since you were renewing, I have *NO* idea how they could mess
    that up..  I mean, you give them your membership ID, they pull up
    your record, verify that the address info is OK, and mark you as 
    paid in the computer..  That can't be difficult and they should not
    have had to re-enter your street address...
    
    Good luck!
    jeff
    

    The problem is that my address is new this year.  I printed my address
    on the application as neatly as possible (for me any ways) using only 
    capital letters.  I can't see how they got 3 or 4 extra letters out of
    "central".  You are probably right though, in that they never look at
    the address on the check and just send it to the bean counters right
    away.  This brings me back to the annoyance strategy (which I may try
    just for the fun of it:)
    
    

    Ahh..  Operator error, but they still should have picked up on it when
    the post office returned your AMA card to them..  Annoyance still
    sounds good!
    
    Yet another good reason for them to come up with an on-line, WWW 
    page for membership renewal and changes!!
    
    Do you want to make bets that the operator lives (or recently lived) on
    Centennial??  Once s/he got typing, the fingers just did the same old
    thing...
    
    Oh well, good luck getting blood from that stone!
    
    cheers
    jeff
    

    WWW would be too perfect!  Simple, easy, quick...I can see why they
    don't want to do it.  It would make our lives easier!  Actually, I
    think they might be looking into it.  Iskandar Taib from the internet
    has posted the suggestion a few times I think.
    

    Well, I got my duplicate card on saturday in the mail.  But then I find
    out that they had sent the original to my parent's house (the old
    address).  Sometimes I wonder.
    
    andyu
    

        Hi,
        
                Anyone have the current phone number for the AMA, please?
        The one(s) mentioned earlier are disconnected.
        
        Thanks and regards,
        
        Andy
        

    The new AMA address/phone is:
    
    	Academy of Model Aeronautics
    	5151 East Memorial Drive
    	Muncie, IN  47302-9252
    
    	317-287-1256 (voice)
    	317-289-4248 (fax)
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

        Thanks Jeff (and thanks to Joe Marrone for Email) - now to see if
        they'll FAX my number so I can get flying properly! :*)
        
        Andy