Conference terri::cars_uk

    I got last months What Car, they had a whole section on Ford,. They
    weren't very complementary. saying they hadn't been high in a test now
    for over a year. ALso said pricing was too high for what you get.
    
    
    Greg

GM have led Ford for years. 

/Dave (Ex-Ford fan, GM owner for 8 years).

    I'll second that!
    
    AS a former Cavalier owner and now Sierra driver I can say that The
    only thing FORD does better is the Seats.
    
    Huw. 

 >    The only thing FORD does better is the Seats.
    
       Not the only thing. Where Ford really excel is their advertising
       department. "There's only one Sierra", and "A modern classic" (the
       Orion) and the campaign for the totally different Escort with
       the competition represented by giant boxes. They hype their own
       products up in a way that is completely unjustified for such a
       boring model range.

       For as long as I can remember, Ford's have always been a triumph
       of marketing over engineering.

       Ian.

       P.S. The spelling checker tried to change Orion to Urine  - this
            product is better than I thought!

    
    I agree with the general (sorry!) comments on GM cars. The overall
    build quality of my Calibra is very good, but there are one or two
    faults which rather let it down (The passenger seat reclines itself
    when left unoccupied for a period and the passenger door window has
    packed up (to be fixed under warranty)).
    
    However, Fords have always been rubbish, so I'm not suprised that
    GM make better cars, only that Ford STILL don't!
    
    Mark

    
    .6 should be a "IMHO". :^)
    
    Mark

    
    I had my first try of a 16V Calibra on Saturday... only a very
    quick thrash. I was paying more attention to the road than the
    car (130mph on a banked 2 mile bowl tends to concentrate the
    mind); so impressions were limited. I like the looks, but have
    to wonder if its just another Astralier in pretty clothes; the
    chassis is ok, the brakes worked and the engine is a strong point,
    but it had nothing to make it a memorable drive. 
    
    William.

    
    Re .8
    
    It IS just a Cavalier in pretty clothes. 
    
    If you accept that, it's a good car. If you expect a sportcar, you'll be
    disappointed.
    
    Mark

    They (GM) must make different autos across the sea !

    
    
    So Keith what car do you drive ??????
    
     
    

    Re: .11
    
    > Apart from that they're Ok,
    
    Like it!  I too, have never found anything in Ford's offering to make
    me decide on one.  Except for my first lease car, which was an Escort,
    and before I knew any better.
    
    Jeff.

    re .12
    
    Keith drive a Renault 11 and is looking at a boring old Golf Gti (dated
    and no value for money! but thats another issue!)
    
    
    Ian.

    re: .14
    
    Keith,
    
    glad to see that after giving Ford a good old slagging that you drive
    a Renault; the steering wheel on my fiasco has more class than a 
    Renault. 
    
    What is it with Renault they seem to have no idea at all when
    it comes to interior design. I worked out in France for a few
    months and had the chance to drive a whole range of rental cars, 
    Renault came right at the bottom of the list. 
    
    In terms of small hatchbacks, I have either owned or hired pretty much
    most of the small european cars and in my opinion the Fiesta and Nova
    is much nicer to drive than the equivalent French or German Italian
    offering. 
    
    

    In general, I would agree that most of Fords current offerings leave more
   than a little to be desired,  but I  will defend the good old  RWD Escorts
   till the cows fly home. Also, I will not be goaded into anything about GM,
   my Dad's Carlton  was a real  disappointment, although my  Mum's Astra was
   quite nice, but her new one is just OK.

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    RWD Escorts???

Re .17

 You may need a long memory for those old things, MK1 and Mk2, ended production 
in 1979 or 80.

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    Mk1 ruled the world of rally in the early seventies...
    
    You could buy racing parts for it almost from any supermarket...
    
    Those were the days...
    
    - Jyri -

    re .17
    
    Yes Escorts used to be RWD in the 1960's & 1970's.
    
    Grant

    
    Yep. RS2000/Mexicos were the definitive small saloons....

 With everyone talking about cam belts recently, has anyone heard of problems
occuring with the cam belt on Pintos, especially on the RS2000s ? I will 
probably replace the one that is on there, along with all the pumps, just to
be on the safe side, but it would be nice to know about the reiabilty of the
belt.

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    re.11
          Keith you can realy talk aload of bull when you put your mind to
    it.Millions would i am sure disagree with what you said about Fords.
    
    
    Katrina

re: .11

Yep, I agree. I find all Fords boring especially the RS500 and Saphire Cosworth
which I wouldn't want if someone was giving them away. And as for the upcoming
Escort Cosworth, bah !

Learned an interesting lesson about this the other day. Was in a shop buying 
a bed and looking for something in native hardwood. While I was making my
purchase I spotted another bed, a black vinyl waterbed with an inbuilt stereo
and TV and a large red stripe. I started laughing and told the saleman that
"surely no-one buys beds like that". He agreed with my sentiment and told me
that he sold 8 of them a month. His best selling bed. If I was running the 
shop, I'd be missing out on a large source of revenue just because of my
inbuilt prejudgices...

  Re: .22

  Well, I was told that Ford recommend replacement of the belt after 30,000
  miles (or so) despite the fact that the franchised dealer in Newbury (who
  shall remain nameless - spit!!) said that they knew of no such
  recommendation.

  Re: the rest

  All I can say is "aw, c'mon, Ford isn't class - but it's cheap to keep".
  Where can you find reliable, tested technology (the Pinto is 30ish) which
  can be maintained by your average metal basher - instead there are many
  people who are able to afford the gargantuan bills presented by some
  dealers and insurance companies coz, "sorry sir the elelctro-gizmo-box
  has had it, and we can only replace it. 300 notes? Thankyou sir - call
  again".

  Sorry for the 'attack', and Ford do the same as well, but on lesser scale.
  There are many alternative auto-factors - eg Ford carb 209 notes - go
  direct to Weber - don't pass go - and pay 100. The carb??? Identical - it's
  a Weber fitted by Ford as (tongue in cheek) 'standard'.

  Cheers
  Andy

  PS Guess what I drive :-) One day - the Cossie!!!

re: .25

 The point is that pound for pound, or dollar for dollar, GM is better
 value than Ford ...

    
    I defy any panel basher to maintain a new Sierra with the ease of
    an old Cortina. This isn't a valid point. An old Cavalier or Chevette
    would be as easy to maintain as a Cortina or Escort, if slightly (but
    only slightly) dearer.
    
    Mark

    Re: .25 - I thought the Pinto was a US model.

re .28

the Ford Pinto (car) is a US model

But the "pinto" (engine) is what cortinas, (early) Sierras, etc have.

Newer Sierras have pinto blocks with more modern heads...


My own view is that Vauxhalls are ugly and I hate them.  New Orions and Escorts
are about the same.  I wouldn't say no to a Sapphire RS Cosworth though, I
quite like them, and they have the advantage of RWD, something you can't
get in a Vauxhall these days...

Scott

RE:                   <<< Note 1448.28 by NEARLY::GOODENOUGH >>>

�    Re: .25 - I thought the Pinto was a US model.
    
    It is, I think he means the engine, Ford's basic 2 litre OHC mill...
    
    Actually, I sort of agree with the sentiments expressed of late,
    however... I've had Fords for years, from the 'angle-box' Anglia,
    through all marks of Cortina, and the same for the Escort (but not the
    very latest). I've also had examples of the later Zephyrs and Zodiacs.
    
    My current Escort I've had from new, it's a 1986 1.6GL 5-dr estate, and
    quite frankly it's been superb. Despite my dislike for front wheel
    drive, I really can't complain at all about it. It's reasonably fast,
    cheap to run, servicing and insurance costs are low etc. etc. And yes,
    since the 3 yr warranty ran out, I do my own maintenance. Of late,
    though, I have noticed that GM has been getting better and better, and
    Ford seem to be getting worse. My next car will probably be a 2.3
    Diesel Carlton Estate, a nice dark metallic colour with alloys. Quite
    simply, there isn't a car in the entire (current) Ford range I'd give
    garage space. I mean, whatever you do to a Fiesta, Escort or Sierra,
    it's still a Fiesta, Escort or Sierra, and it's still a boring Ford.
    
    We also run a 1985 Granada Estate which is a magnificent family car. No
    complaints there either. We bought it when we outgrew the Escort.
    
    Laurie.

RE:            <<< Note 1448.29 by HUGS::AND_KISSES "Scott Marshall" >>>

� quite like them, and they have the advantage of RWD, something you can't
� get in a Vauxhall these days...

    I was under the impression that the Carlton was RWD....
    
    Laurie.
    

    
    Don't be silly Laurie,
    
    The Lotus Carlton is OBVIOUSLY a FWD econobox! :^)
    
    Mark

 Re. Carlton.

	It is RWD.

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    If Carlton is the same as Opel Omega, it is RWD.
    
    
    
    BTW, I think you Brits have it wrong; Vauxhalls nowadays are Opels with
    Vauxhall badge, not vice versa...;^)
    
    Still the US has it even more difficult; their cars have Chevy, Ford,
    Mercury, Dodge etc badges but may be made in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan
    etc..
    
    - Jyri -

    � BTW, I think you Brits have it wrong; Vauxhalls nowadays are Opels with
    � Vauxhall badge, not vice versa...;^)
    
    Been true a long time. My 1978 Cavalier Coupe was built in Belgium by
    Adam Opel (as it declared under the bonnet).
    
    The Cavalier saloon was an Ascona with a sloping nose (a la Manta) and
    the Chevette a Kadett with a similar treatment. Still, whatever you
    call 'em they're still better than the equivalent Fords (IMHATBO :^)).
    
    Mark
    
    PS Guess what I drive! :^)

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    The new  Escort  is  horrible.  And the switch gear is "good" enough to
    have French origins.

Re:             <<< Note 1448.34 by EEMELI::JMANNINEN "Untouchable" >>>
    
>>    BTW, I think you Brits have it wrong; Vauxhalls nowadays are Opels with
>>    Vauxhall badge, not vice versa...;^)

Jyri,
	You've clearly got this wrong!! Just look at the Opel Kadett
replacement due later out this year. It will no longer be a Kadett - but
instead will become an ASTRA - the name that the UK currently uses.

	What clearer evidence than this do you need of Vauxhall's leading r�le
within GM Europe!!!

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

Steve

re Vauxhall and RWD...

I stand corrected.  But Carltons are such ugly amorphous blobs I still wouldn't
buy one...

But then the only "production" cars I'd want to buy at all are
TVR, Marcos, &c...

:-)

Scott

    
    I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Scott, but are you
    comparing Vauxhalls with Fords? Ford's answer to the Carlton is the
    Scorpio/Granada which has the dubious honour of being only slight
    less ugly than the Sierra, which still rates as one of the biggest
    styling errors of all time! :^)
    
    Mark
    
    PS A TVR Tasmin with the 'broken nose' look isn't exactly a beauty
    either, but I'll concede a Marcos is better looking than a Carlton! :^)
    
    

    A TVR S2 would be nice though!!

    Despite the fact that there are rumours that there will be a Granada
    Estate announced shortly, I wouldn't buy one. For two main reasons. 1)
    I really don't like FWD, and 2) I too think they look little different
    to a Sierra, a pig-ugly car if ever there was one. I would also prefer
    a diesel next time round, and the Ford 2.5 lump they will probably use
    isn't exactly the most highly respected diesel in the world.
    
    I like the look of the Carlton Estate, especially in a dark colour and
    with nice shiny alloys, and internally it's of a size with the old
    Granada Estate. It's RWD, and the 2.3 diesel engine is well thought of;
    with a turbo, it's quick too. I 'chased' one off the lights outside
    NATO over here, and couldn't keep up with it! My Escort can still do
    0-60mph in about 11 secs.
    
    So choices? Well, the Merc is silly-money, I don't like Volvos, the
    Sierra/Escort too small and crap, BMW too small, Passat ugly/too small
    etc. etc. A 5-dr Discovery TDi would do nicely...
    
    Ford has lost the private buyer years ago, and now it's losing the
    Corporate market. GM *are* filling the market slots being vacated by
    Ford; comparing TVR et al with the 'run-of-the-mill' family/rep car is
    silly! I've had Vivas of all marks, a Manta and Cavaliers inc a GLS, in
    those days, Ford were better. In the days of the Cortina, MK1/MK2
    Escorts and the old RWD Granny, they were hard to beat by almost any
    'Joe Average Public' criteria; those days are long gone IMHO. 
    
    Laurie.

>>For two main reasons. 1)
>>    I really don't like FWD, and 2) I too think they look little different

but Granadas are RWD


...art

RE:                       <<< Note 1448.42 by TURB0::art >>>

� >>For two main reasons. 1)
� >>    I really don't like FWD, and 2) I too think they look little different
� 
� but Granadas are RWD

    You sure? If so, I stand corrected. I'm sure they're not, the 'new'
    ones I mean, the older ones certainly were.....
    
    Laurie.

 I am sure that the Sierra lookalike Grandads are RWD, Ford only put FWD into
their small boxes. Even the Transits are RWD.

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    Although I hated the Sierra when it was first came out, I now think 
    the Sierra has its' place in history as a frontier design.
    
    If you look at all the cars prior to that they were still all very
    square but after the Sierra, they changed alot.
    The same has happened/is happening in the bike world after the Honda
    CBR.
    
    I suppose the real question is whether the Sierra design was considered
    a breakthrough that needed to be made. ;^)
    
    James.

 I agree with James, the Sierra was a breakthrough in design at the time, but 
what have Ford done to update it ? As far as I can tell 1) Grandad front end
2) Totally new cylinder head. 3) Sapphire.

 This all means that it is now completely outdated in design IMHO. 

 I would like to see Ford make a decent car again. You never know it may even
happen before I actually get round to buying (or getting a company) new car.
But that will be quite sometime from now.

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

� 		the Sierra was a breakthrough in design at the time, but 
    
    I thought that the Sierra shape was not unlike the style used by Citroen...
    
    J.R.

    
    The Sierra was certainly different, certainly not everyone's cup
    of tea, but different, like citroen as was mentioned. Certainly
    a lot different from the "new" cavalier eurobox. 
    
    Granadas are definitely RWD.
    
    I thought the engine used in genuine RS1600/RS2000 was designated
    BDA and it was not a pinto engine at all. 
    
    

    The RS1600 was a BDA but the RS2000 was pinto.

    I had a BDA engined RS1600.
    
    I sold it.
    
    It's the *only* car I regret having sold. Wish I still had it. :-(
    
    JK
    
    p.s. If the Sierra was a "styling disaster", why did GM try to copy it
    with the latest Cavalier?

RE: -.1

You are right - Golfs are boring - there is never any maintenance to do on them.
How are you going to occupy your weekends?!!

Steve

    A Ford that isn't too bad a car is the Fiesta.  When you compare the
    average (1.1 or 1.3) Fiesta to the very aged Nova (even after it's
    recent face lift) - there's no competition. 
    
    The Fiesta may not be quite the best, but it's not far off and looks
    reasonable, though to similar to the 205 and Clio.  Also I suspect
    the Fiesta is the only Ford that attracts a significant number of
    private buyers.  

    
    Lot's of anti-Ford and anti-Renault prejudice in this note.
    
    I, as many of you know, used to own a Renault and it was great.
    Reliable, fun and well made. On the other hand my wife owned a W-reg
    Fiasco and that was a total dog in every respect.
    
    She now has a Fiat Uno which is a better car in many respects. 
    
    However, I'll agree that the new Fiasco is better than the earlier
    ones, but have you noticed how keen they are on rolling over? They
    have a definite reputation in XR2i racing trim...
    
    Mark
    
    PS Re the Cavalier looking like a Sierra. I'd imagine that Ford would
    have been more than happy to have got the Sierra to look like a
    Cavalier! Unfortunately, they designed a car with portholes instead!

    Re: Sierra design...
    
    Theres a 'spy shot' in one of the car mags at the moment showing the
    'new shape' Sierra...  Doesn't seem to be a radical change but it looks
    nicer.
    
    ..Craig
    

    Early '93 for the new Sierra (A&M), including a 3-dr coupe that might
    have the Capri badge. Competition for the Calibra ? (Awaiting laughter
    from the GM brigade (Mark?) :-) )
    
    - Roy (Who has resisted the childish bickering 'my car is better than
          your car' argument. What I can say is that I'm very pleased with 
          the build quality, performance and reliability of the RS Fiasco)

    Re. the Ford RS model Escorts
    
    There's been mention in here of RS1600 and RS200 models,
    but not of the best [roadg-going] one of all, the RS1800.
    
    The RS1600 was a BDA-engined Mark 1, which was developed as a
    rally winner.  The RS1800 was a Mark 2, again with a BDA engine,
    which was the basis for yet another rally winner.  (mind you, the
    standard RS1800 was only fitted with a twin-choke carb !)
    
    The RS2000 was a much more common model, fitted with the Pinto
    engine (from a Cortina) and gave good performance (for its day).
    In club rallying, the Mk 2 Escort is usually fitted with either
    a Pinto engine or a Kent crossflow (generally bored out from 1600
    to 1700 or 1760 cc).  There is a so-called 'Group 1' state of tune
    for the Pinto, so I guess that the RS2000 had some competition
    history to justify this, but it wasn't a world class rally car
    (was Group 1 a circuit racing class ?).
    
    J.R.

    
    No laughter here. I thought the new Capri (which I read was unlikely to
    appear after all) looked pretty good. I doubt Ford have an engine good
    enough to compete with the GM 16 valver though (although a non-turbo
    Cosworth might?).
    
    Of course, maintaining the Capri name will definitely hurt the
    credibility of the new coupe, whatever it's like. :^)
    
    Still, by '93 the Cavalier will be nearing the end of it's life too, so
    Ford will only have caught up rather than jumped ahead, and I remain
    unconvinced that Ford will be able to match GM (Germany anyway) build
    standards.
    
    Mark

 As I understand it, there were 3 groups of cars before the GP A/B/N etc. and
these were called Group 1,2 and 4. (don't ask me why it went from 2 to 4, amybe
even earlier they had Gp3 as well ?)

	Basically, there was a similarity between the old grouping and the new,
but I assume that the RAC wanted to radically redesign the grouping. Anyway to
put it simply :-

	Group 1	was similar to Group N
	Group 2 was similar to Group A (as it used to be when group B was about)
 and    Group $ was similar to Group B (ie. virtually anything goes.)



		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    
    Yep there was a Group 3.
    
    Basically 1 was to 2 what 3 was to 4!
    
    Current Group A is part way between 1 and 2, Group N is more standard
    than 1 was.
    
    The RAC didn't revise the groupings FISA did. In fact there were 9
    groups.
    
    1 was touring cars in near showroom condition (min 5000 built).
    2 was modified touring cars (again 5000 built).
    3 was GTs (Porsches, etc) to 1 spec.
    4 was GTs to 2 spec.
    5 was for heavily modified versions of 1-4 (eg Porsche 935, Lancia M/C)
    6 was for open two seater sportscars (as raced at Le Mans - Porsche 936)
    7 was (I think) Can-Ams and the like.
    8 was F1, F2 and F3
    9 was other single seaters.
    
    7, 8 and 9 are a bit hazy, but my 1975 FIA yellow book contains the
    full run down, if anyone must know the full details.
    
    Mark

     Ford have always seemed to have successful RS models (The RWD 
     RS Escorts being the most successful rally car of all time, winning
     the RAC rally no less than SEVEN TIMES!). But in recent years Ford
     have been very reluctant to offer anything drastically new in the
     rest of the range.

     I currently own a Cavilier GSI and must agree with Mark that it doesn't
     handle or feel like a sports car. The car is easy to drive and is
     very well equipped and gives a good level of comfort. It also has had it
     far share of problems. (Complete engine management has been replaced.
     Which took two vauxhall garages about 6 attempts to fix it !!!)

     It is obvious that GM are gaining a large portion of the Ford market
     but I have a soft spot too for the old RWD Escorts, and would love to
     own or drive an RS1800.

     RE -.22

     The pinto engine is normally good when It comes to cam belts. It is
     generally a good idea to replace them every 36000 miles (With a genuine
     Ford Motorcraft belt). The life of the belt is reduced when high
     compression heads and high lift cams are used.

     I have herd a story of a pinto belt breaking and the valves didn't smash
     the pistons ?? But this might be a different story on the RS2000 as the
     valve lift may be higher.

	The problem with Fords is that they've got no class.

	-John

    re -.many
    
    After having read a lot of flames I can't help but put this in...
    
    My 1976 Capri w/ 2.3L has just turned 164K miles.  Yah, its ragged,
    but its never let me down either.  It just keeps running (and
    disolving).
    
    Perhaps Ford forgot how to make good cars?  or perhaps this is
    senseless bashing based on one car experiences.  Most likely the
    latter.
    
    		--Mike Sharp

    
    1976 was the height of Ford's power. GM, in Britain anyway, hadn't
    really begun to make inroads and Ford's were cheap to buy and maintain.
    
    Sadly (for them anyway) the former (and probably not the latter) is no
    longer true and the competition has leapt ahead. I suspect Ford have 
    suffered from resting on their laurels.
    
    � Perhaps Ford forgot how to make good cars?  or perhaps this is
    � senseless bashing based on one car experiences.  Most likely the
    � latter.
    
    Mike, I know you've got a few Capris, but one model doesn't make a
    range, so maybe your defence is also based on limited experience?
    My criticsms of Ford reliability is based, primarily, on one car which
    I've often said was probably a Siesta Fiesta, but the more general
    criticsms on VFM, build quality and uninspiring cars (with certain
    obvious exceptions) are valid.
    
    After all, who'd buy a car which looked duff in the showroom, drove
    duff on the road and was dearer than the better competition?
    
    Mark
    

�     Ford have always seemed to have successful RS models (The RWD 
    
    Depends on your point of view (doesn't it always ?).
    
    Ford have been successful with competition cars based on RS models.
    
    The fact that the RS badge is used on the higher performance models
    means that it will appear on the competition cars too (from which
    the comp. car should be based).  As with other manufacturers, this
    is more of a marketing ploy.  The [Escort] RS Turbo was a quick road car,
    but didn't achieve a high level of competition success.  The Fiesta
    RS Turbo is not intended for competition of any sort (only sales).
    The 'RS' Cosworths at least keep up the competition-bred 'heritage'.
    
    The RS1600i Escort was another RS badged Ford which was intended
    for competition.  Anyone paying for these on the road only gets the
    'exclusivity' (min 5000 made), since the road performance is not really
    much better than the bread-and-butter XR3i Escorts.
    
�     RS Escorts being the most successful rally car of all time, winning
�     the RAC rally no less than SEVEN TIMES!).
    
    But it didn't do so well in World Championship results, so is it
    might not be 'the most successful rally car', perhaps only the
    'most succesful RAC Rally car'...
    
    
    As for the heading of this topic, 'tis a shame that GM have not come
    up with a decent offering in the world of motorsport (well, rallying
    at any rate - there is Formula Vauxhall/Lotus on the circuits).
    
    The Astra and Nova [GTE] models are still a better choice for competition
    than any Escort and Fiesta models, so you could still say GM is better.
    
    J.R.

    John,
    
    Yeah, GM were BTCC champions two years ago and are well on the way
    to repeating this year! Pity it's that objectionable Cleland doing
    the winning :^(
    
    Mark
    
    PS Does it matter if cars like Fords or GMs have class? You don't
    get that until you start spending Jaguar type money (ok, so a Scorpio
    and a XJ6 aren't far apart on price, but a Scorpio is a top range
    Granada and a top whack XJR-S will cost a lot more than any Ford -
    RS200 excluded!), unless you mean quality of build and I'd say GMs
    have definitely got that on Cavalier and up models.

 Re. RS1600i and XR3i


	It wasn't actually a case of the RS1600i being for competition and the
XR3i for road, it was actually a case of concurrent development, a team in
Germany designed the RS1600i, and the SVO (Special Vehicles Operation) in 
England designed the XR3i. The RS1600i came out slightly earlier, but the XR3i
was the one kept on as the normal one because it was designed by the official 
performance section (SVO did the RS turbo Escort and Fiesta, and the Cosworth)
and was considered to have the better suspension set up.

	This is probably a case of bad management within Ford, and I do wish 
that Ford would get back to being the way they were in the 70s, as they couldn't
have built up their laurel standing platform by pure good luck, they must have 
been doing things right at one point.


		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    
    Talking of the XR3i, that is a good example of how Ford shot itself in 
    the foot.
    
    The early XR3i was stiffly suspended, good handling and pretty damned
    quick, however rather than improving this early trendsetter, they chose
    to make it softer (suspended and looking), slower and altogether less 
    appealing in the face of much better competition. All the time, Ford
    also made the car more expensive, until it became the joke it now is.
    
    Ford's answer to such criticsm? Buy the RS Turbo (which also went
    downhill in performance terms!) at a much higher price. A friend of 
    mine had an early XR3i and it was a good car. He also had an RS Turbo
    (later model) and although not bad, it was never as good (in both
    our opinions) as his XR3i or most of the competition.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Didn't the RS1600i have a chassis and engine designed to be more
    adaptable to racing? However, I don't doubt the reason it existed was 
    a mistake!

�    PS Didn't the RS1600i have a chassis and engine designed to be more
�    adaptable to racing? However, I don't doubt the reason it existed was 
�    a mistake!
    
    Yep, this is what I understood to be the case.
    
    One of my friends had one of these (actually two, since one got stolen).
    Before this, he had an 'X-Pack' RS2000, before that an RS2000 and before
    that it was a Mk.1 with a heavily modified 1600cc. (know him, Mark ?)
    
    I recall reading something on the spoiler fitted to the rear of the
    RS1600i which went on about it having to be flexible as a safety issue,
    since people could get their fingers caught in it when the car was moving.
    (it consists of two, small, spoilers above each other).  In practise, the
    top of these two spoilers is forced down by air pressure such that it
    actually closes the gap between it and its lower partner.  That being
    the case, why didn't they make it a single-piece affair after all ?
    
    J.R.

    
    As an indication of how Ford managed to screw the XR3i up, all one has
    to do is look at the performance versus the XR3 (ie non-injection which
    was sold until 'Y' reg or so).  
    
    It started off quicker, and only a 100 lb's or so heavier.  By the end
    of it's life it was slower, because of an extra few hundred lb's, and
    no increase in engine output.
    
    Not much development there.
    
    
    Nigel

                  
    For what it's worth....
    
    I owned a mint RS1600i, which I must say was the best Ford I've
    owned to date. The reason for this above the 'ever-so-popular'
    XR3i was simply performance, handleing and being a limited
    edition car (I believe some 5K were built). I always regret 
    selling and joining the lease scheme !
    
    IMO in the 70s, the Lotus Cortinas, RS1600, RS1800, RS Mexico 
    RS2000 etc. were fine cars for their class. Why oh why did Ford 
    ever lose sight of the success at this time, is far beyond 
    me. Today, I firmly believe they have a mountain of work to do 
    in order to re-capture some of their previous success.
    
    I have been a Ford Man of old. But today, even though I drive
    one, it is sure to be my last !!
    
    Later.
    
    -fv
    
    PS: It's all depends on personal preference and what how/what you 
    like to drive.

    fv,
    
    tell us about the RS1600i.  I've often wondered how they were different
    from the XR3's.
    
    Cheers,
    Robert.

    re: 1
    
    Robert.
    
    What exactly would you like to know ??
    
    IMHO it was a totally different car and I rather not list 
    all the pro and cons here.
    
    You're welcome to contact me offline at USH is you wish.
    						
    Regards.
    
    -fv

 fv,

 	I would find it interesting to know what the differences were as well, I
did put a note in based on what I had heard/read, but I would like to know more 
about the differences. 

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    My Brother in law used to have an RS1600i.  The engine was different,
    being based on the 1600 Ghia, so you had manually adjusted tappets etc. 
    Cant rtemember anything else
    
    John

The RS1600i had a much smaller fuel tank as well.

The 1600 Ghia has hydraulic tappets, for easy maintenance and because
power is not so important. It's the XR3 that didn't have them.

    Keith,
    Do you want to take back that last comment about being a VW owner???
    
    
    Ian.
    ;-)

    well Keith if Fords realy suck.........!!!!!!!!
    
    Don't bother asking me again for a lift in my Orion Ghia Inj. When you
    want to view a boring Golf GTi thingy,or borrow it to go to the garage for a
    bottle of coke for your Vodka.........  :-)
    
    Katrina   (Fords ye just luv em realy!!!!!! )