Conference terri::cars_uk

RE:    < Note 904.72 by GALLOP::FOREMANC "Hardnose Hawkins" >


    Carl,
    
    >Thanks, Bill - I'll check out the library for some info. Unfortunately
    >I'm stuck in the sticks (Newmarket office)where it's necessary to drive
    >in the middle of the road most of the time where I live - hazards
    >on the side of the road include large horses, deep mud and HUGE
    >potholes! 
    
    I bet you wanted a mini just so you could drive in the middle of
    the road and have a DECENT excuse !
    
    Lewis_who_also_drives_a_la_XR2 (New style, so no jokes OK!!!!) ;-)     
    

    
    It has to be Mercedes and their drivers. Their advertising slogan
    should be 'Ignorance through Arrogance'.
    
    They do not have to obey normal conventions. Car parked on the double
    yellows outside Toys'R'Us on the Saturday before Christmas, everyone
    else trying to squeeze in and out to the car park? Yes, its a Mercedes.
    He didn't even feel the need to put the hazards on.
    
    The car that drives all the way down the outside lane on the motorway,
    right up to the cones, and elbows infront of you? A Mercedes (you have
    been in the queue for 15 mins already!!)
    
    Ever sat waiting in those lines to get on the hovercraft, and your car
    can't go anywhere because the family at the front don't return until 30
    secs before said hovercraft is due to leave? Its Mr and Mrs Mercedes
    again. THEN they they tear off down the apron and push past everyone
    else.
    
    Mercedes: "I've got money, you don't matter"
    
    David.
    
    

    
    Mercs?
    
    I thought he was talking about BMWs! :^)
    
    Anyway, I have to say that the original note really hit some nails
    firmly on the head. Obviously not ALL Capri drivers think they have
    sportscars and are wealthy Cortina owners (I know a middle aged
    woman who drives one, albeit fairly briskly) in the same way that
    all Volvo drivers aren't brain-dead (ok, it's difficult to think
    of any examples to support this, but...:^))
    
    Have you noticed though how, in these days of increased wealth,
    that the cars owned by these groups tend to be newer than they did.
    
    The Allegro appears to be rapidly being replaced by the Maestro
    and the entire Nissan range (excluding the 200SX) as the car that
    Mr & Mrs Senile drive (apologies to anyone who drives one of these
    and isn't in the category.), and the XR3 is fast overhauling the
    Capri as the wide-boy (Don't laugh your daughter may be inside)
    mobile.
    
    Soon maybe we'll see the Sunday league football gang (you know the
    ones who can drink 30 pints of Barbican Shandy Top and then vomit
    200 yards in their white socked feet) jumping into their Toyota
    Supras, Renault 5 Turbos or Astra GTE 16v (or other REALLY quick
    cars) with Jason and Sharon emblazoned across the windscreen.
    
    I think I'll trade the Renault for an Allegro, they'll be classics
    soon!
    
    Mark    
    
    

    
    No, BMW drivers are similar, but slightly different. They drive like
    they think they own the road, but really know they are just trying it
    on. Your Mercedes man or woman drives safe in the knowledge that, yes
    they have indeed bought the road and it is theirs.
    
    I like Volvo drivers. I don't think that they are brain-dead, just
    brain-dim. They are such caring people, driving at 60 mph on the
    motorway to save some green fuel. Most of them have RSPB, RSPCA or
    National Trust stickers to show just how caring they are.
    
    Another common breed is the
    Astra_Max_Van_travelling_at_terminal_speed_on_the_outside_lane_of_the
    motorway. Nothing short of a BMW  :-) can get past one of these.
    
    David.
    (all in jest, of course ;-) )

    re -.1, It is not Merc drivers, but Jag drivers who own the road.
    
    DejW

    re-1
    
    You still get the odd pratt in a GTi (Not just a VW) that will try and 
    race a Jaguar XJS.
    
    Grant

    I don't care what sort of car it is (although Volvos, elderly Japanese,
    elderly ARGs and Anything pre 1970 predominates) but if the driver
    has a hat I just *know* he'll be an erratic oldster who'll give
    give an angry "look at that speeding idiot" look when I overtake
    on a clear straight road. :-)
    
    Paul

    Heres one..
    
    The "ACCESSORY-MOBILE"
    If it moves, shines, is fluffy, stiped, or totally useless, then...
    
    .
     .
      .
       .
        .
         .
          .
           STICK ON YA CAR !
    
    These people hold the proud reputation of boosting any car accessary
    shop's takings by a good 100%, where ever they live!.
           

    ....and those drivers that wear gloves... YOUUGGGGH! 

I wear a hat (keeps my head warm), but I don't think of myself as an
"erratic oldster" - I'm only 32!  Also, I know a Police class 1 driver who
wears a hat *and* is 50-odd, he's not erratic either.  That's the trouble with
any classification system, you'll always find exceptions...

I take the point though that we make assumptions about how a given car is 
likely to behave.  Usually without really noticing the driver.  Making decisions
based on this can be useful, ie choice of two lanes, one car in each which one
you choose could be based on the car type.  However, faced with the choice 
between a Moggie Minor or an MR2 to queue behind I chose the MR2 (won't be
slow, will it?) and guess which one roared off into the sunset?

Dave

    
    Re. The glove hater.
    
    Heh, hold on, you can't say THAT!!!!! I fall into that category!
    :^)
    
    I often wear gloves when driving my Renault because the steering
    wheel is slippery when cold and I don't like driving in a car with
    the heating blaring out.
    
    Just as a matter of interest, what do gloves imply to you?
    
    Mark

    They're not those leather driving gloves are they with the ventilation
    holes on the backs of the hands....?  
    
    When I picture those I think of a really thin, slimy man croached closely
    to the steering wheel driving very slowly and carefully - usually in an
    Maestro (already established as the new Allegro :-)).
    
    Ruth.
                                                        

RE .15;


Eeeuuuuuugghhhhh!

Mark, you've fallen in my estimation! How Could you?? ;-)

I agree with the bit about hats. I think the XR3i, XR2 and RS-Turbo have
replaced the Capri for those Capri owners who can afford a bit more.

Peugeot 205GTi owners are women (except for the men!)

Renault 5 GTTurbo owners have black hair (except for the brown/blonde or red
heads)

MR2 owners are either Women, contractors or hairdressers (or all three!!)

Mark.

    
>>        ....and those drivers that wear gloves... YOUUGGGGH! 

   Thats me, because the heats turned right off (and its winter out
    there), if I dont wear gloves I cant use  the key board for atleast
    an hour when I get to work.
    
    Cold = concenration = comfort (for me!)
    
    :J (_Astra_GTE) 

    Yes I quite agree about the XR2, XR3 and RS-Turbo drivers, and I think
    it is also possible to classify them into age groups with the XR2 for
    younger (18 - 23 yrs) would-be-capri-but-wealthy drivers, then the XR3 
    drivers (22 - 28 yrs), and then the RS-turbo drivers (28 +) who are far 
    too old to be driving in such a boy-racer's car anyway.
    
    Can't believe no-one's mentioned Skodas or Ladas - do you all own one
    or what?
                          
    Ruth.

    
�    Can't believe no-one's mentioned Skodas or Ladas - do you all own one
�    or what?
                          
   Yes - you've hit the nail on the head. Skoda and Lada owners don't
   admit to owning one!

	Well, I agree entirely with the summation of the Mercedes driver. My
	ex father-in-law was one, a 300 SEL owner. Whenever I had the 
	misfortune to drive with him, he seemed to use the tri-star as a kind
	of 'sight' for any one daring to slow him down.  

	One group of people though transcend all marques of car, the Sunday
	driver. I've found these all over Europe acting in the same manner.
	It's quite astonishing how they can drive a car, look at a map, and
	point out, to spouse and kiddies, the points of interest they are
	currently passing.

	Experience over the last year or so has seen the Astra 16v driver
	surpass the Golf GTI driver for the title of "I don't need indicators
	'cos I'm going faster than anyone else". The old Opel Kadett is still
	the favourite for late teens, early twenties type who can only just
	afford to buy a car and then attach great quantities of loose flapping
	plastic posing as sideskirts and spoilers. In the same group, but 
	slightly wealthier the old Manta is favourite. This is commonly seen
	with 'KIT' type sequence flasing lights across the bonnet, and during
	the Christmas period miniature Christmas trees, adorned with flashing 
	lights, are perched on the dashboard.


	As for hats, well I can't possibly fall into that category, my heads
	too close to the roof !

	Gordon

What a load of ....

An Escort 1.4 passed me this morning doing about 90mph and on the limits of 
traction, followed by demon braking, outside-inside overtaking, last seen 
still overtaking into the distance.

A couple a days ago a mini went past me sideways out of control due to too 
much speed for the conditions.

In fact most of the cars which behave in these exceptional ways are as 
varied as there are models.

Dave.
P.S. I have a Cavalier SRi

    
    Ok I'll come clean.
    
    My gloves are brown leather with (wait for it)...
    
    String backs!!!!!!!
    
    They are, however, fleece lined and do keep my hands very warm.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Why wear a hat in a car? Surely your head doesn't get cold does
    it? I've got fairly poor circulation, but I've never had a cold
    head. Hands and feet, yes, but head never!
    
    
    

I have a BMW and drive its the same way as I used to drive the cavaliers, 
the orions, etc I have owned. Put all those categories of people in *any* 
car and they will behave in exactly the same way.

moral: its not the car people drive but the general driving behaviour of 
people.

eddie(who_is_a_careful_driver_in_*any*_car

    I gave up trying to categorise drivers by the cars they drive after
    starting my road usage on big capacity motorcycles. If you're on a 
    bike, EVERYONE is a bad driver. I'm not saying motorcyclists are good,
    just that a biker can't trust ANYONE.

    It's only a very small step from saying "Oh... an Allegro... I bet they
    are going to do something stupid" to "Oh... a Rover... they must be a
    really good driver so I'll just..." Skkkrrrrsssshhhhh.... BANG !

    Start making assumptions like that and you'll come a cropper.

    Having said that, why is it that whenever I get to the bit of the M4
    just before the elevated section going into London, and the outside
    lane closes, why, when there have been signposts for the last mile, is
    there always a Mercedes and an Astra van teararsing up the chevrons on
    the (closing) outside lane ?

Ross ( who get's really annoyed now that it's no longer 'fashionable' to slag off
       911s as being evil handling slugs, so every armchair car 'expert' has
       taken to slagging off BMW 3 series cars. )

    >  ( who get's really annoyed now that it's no longer 'fashionable' to
    >  slag off 911s as being evil handling slugs, so every armchair car
    >  'expert' has taken to slagging off BMW 3 series cars. )

    Aaaahhh, poor Ross! :^)
    
    Re the last two.
    
    Aren't you getting a little serious about a note which is really
    totally light-heated? It is light-hearted isn't it? No-one REALLY
    believes that people in hats drive differently to anyone else do
    they?
    
    Mark
    

    >  ( who get's really annoyed now that it's no longer 'fashionable' to
    >  slag off 911s as being evil handling slugs, so every armchair car
    >  'expert' has taken to slagging off BMW 3 series cars. )


And why the hell not? BTW, I think I might just be qualified to comment.

    I agree with the light hearted bit.
    And to show I'm a good sport and agree with what's gone so far, who
    would like to guess my car? (Those who know - keep quiet, or have a
    guess of what I ought to drive).
    
    I wear gloves - to keep my hands warm as said previously. Its much
    nicer having warm hands when you arrive. (ask my keyboard and my wife).
    I wear a hat, with peak, when I have the roof back. This is to keep the
    sun from glaring at me and to stop my head sunburning.
    I am in my 30's.
    I love driving, sometimes do it for the ride!
    I sometimes get away from the junction first, only through
    concentration, observation and anticipation.
    I thought about putting some sort of Xmas decor on my car.
    I am pondering what sort of colour / decor to adopt in making the car
    look special.
    
    O.K. so there's the clues. I PROMISE not to get upset by ANY replies.
    
    
    Andrew

    I saw the epitimy of the ols huntin shootin fishin, condor smoking type
    yesterday, next to me in a roundabout queue,
    
    Not in a range rover, or a bmw, or a merc, or a volvo etc,
    
    This guy was dressed in the tweed jacket and fly fishing type hat, with
    a pipe in one hand, and the wheel in the other, he was driving an
    immaculate old Scimiter, you know, it had been polished so well, you
    couldn't see what colour it was for the shine!
    
    Thats what I call "matched" to your car.
    

> And why the hell not?

OK... so I took this topic on a slightly more serious note than it was intended
but only because it rapidly degenerated from humorous quips about lager louts
and Capri drivers, into the usual, staid, "such and such a car is a dog so
anyone who drives one is a git" type rhetoric I'd expect to hear in a pub on
a Saturday night.

The pub across the road from me is full of XR3 drivers who look about twelve 
and constantly prattle on about how they can wire up thier Maystar stereo to
the blinking lights in the headlining and how to stop the parcel shelf from
sagging under the weight of thier mega-watt speakers.

Occasionally, the ubiquitous farmer pulls up in his ten year old XJ6 with the
right rear door a different colour to the rest of the car, parks in the most 
dangerous spot he can find, and wobbles into the pub for a Sunday snooze while
he slowly downs his n'th pint of Theakstons.

You might think I'd have a go at the Range Rover types, but the few near where 
I live are seriously used on the farm. Of course, Mrs Farmer drives a dark blue
740 estate which only slows down for horses and has three kids on the back seat,
a labrador slobering on the rear window and a 6-pack of disposable head scarfs
in the glove box. This beast is never to be seen towing anything although you
could probably plug R2-D2 into something on the rear tow hitch. No... all animals
larger than the labrador and too nervous to ride on the open trailer dragged 
behind a tractor of dubious legality, are toted about in the Bedford Transporter.

Now... put Mrs Farmer behind the wheel of an eight wheel horse transporter and
you have a totally different person. Mrs Farmer can put that thing through a gate
at 90 degrees to the main road with �" to spare on either side... in reverse.
Mrs Farmer knows no fear when she's behind the wheel of a truck, it's almost the
same as the 740 just with a more nervous dog in the back. I like Mrs Farmer 
although she doesn't understand why I get out of my car to talk to her when she's
on a horse.

Don't get me wrong, I like living in the country, watching the locals blatting
about the village on a 15 year old Massey Ferguson because the XR3 wont start
because it spent the evening down a dark lane, rear-window demist totally
overwhelmed by the nature ramble going on in the back, mood rap blasting from
the flaging stereo.

Capris ? No self respecting farmer would drive a Capri. It's got to be a raised
up Toyota 4x4 with Sand Blaster tyres or an XR3. There is often an old Rover to 
be found rusting behind a barn with a Fisons bag taped over the missing passenger
window but who needs the Rover while the XJ6 can still be wheezed into life.

 
Ross

Guess what car?  I'll have a go...

Gloves - this implies bad heating in the car or no heating at all, or heating
and no roof.

Hat keeps off the sun - definitely open top, unless you've got a very strange
driving position.

30s - so am I, so no commments.

love driving - yes, so do we all.

Away first, but only by guile - car is not a high performance car?

Christmas decoration - car can't be too small, otherwise it wouldn't fit in.

Colour scheme not yet finalized - the car is obviously running (earlier replies)
so why no scheme yet?  Being renovated?

Adding it all up, how about an old Landy?

Dave

    MGB Roadster?
    

Re .31

Yeahhhh!  Let's hear it for famers.  I love 'em too - had to when I was young
because many of our family friends farmed many acres in Lincolnshire.  There was
George who had to have the newest of everything - exotic.  He rode around for a
while in a Merc 230 SEL coupe while Mrs George had a Bristol, which had just
replaced her ageing Alvis.  He was most impressed by the fancy "adjust-a-ride"
suspension on his 1964 Cortina Estate (Deluxe version or course).  Did I say
exotic?  Ah well.

Dave wasn't quite so prosperous in the early days and kept some VERY fierce
alsations to keep unwelcome debt collectors away.  Mother used to take the odd
packet of butter around, or a tin of coffee.  They rode on the biggest tractor
you'd ever seen - the wheels were ENORMOUS!  One day, Conoco said they wanted
to build an oil refinery on his land and would he sell it?  They now farm 2000+
acres elsewhere, own a whole village, including the old priory, and still ride
around on tractors ..... although I think Mrs Dave has a Metro for going to the
school with little Dave and his sister.

Ayr has a market twice a week and the collection of battered and mud spattered
machinery is amazing.  No carism there ..... except perhaps the one or two in 
their green Hunter wellies, as opposed to the more common black ones most of us
possess, who drive Range Rovers that don't have a spot on them while they
supervise their farm tenants/managers getting the best prices they can to fund
next year's vacation in Vanuatu or somewhere equaly exotic....

BTW, I think Andrew drives an XR3 with sunroof.

	Farmers, oh yes I remember some characters ! I lived in South Devon
	for 18 years. I could never understand how farmers could afford to
	buy a car in the first place. They were always pleading poverty in
	my fathers pub while downing pints and chasers before driving off
	in mud spattered Rovers and Jags .

	Still the top prize goes to a Mr Lidstone, a local framer. He went
	off to the livsestock market in Kingsbridge driving his pride and
	joy, a 2 year old Bentley, this was back in 1972. I was cleaning
	our car when he drove into the pub car park at about 2:30, just in
	time for last orders. In the back of his car, on those lovely
	leather seats sat a 6 month old Saddleback boar !!!!

	Gordon 
	

    Sounds like it's a 2cv to me.
    
    However, re .31, all very nice, but I thought the reference was to evil
    BMWs and snail-like Porsches, which were not even mentioned in the
    reply.

    Of course! How could I forget the 2cv driver? 
    
    The owner of a 2cv is *generally* green in his/her outlook, is careful
    with money, and likes a car with "a bit of character" and the thrill of
    having an extremely low chance of surviving any minor bumps or scrapes 
    without needing the entire bodywork remoulded.  The 2cv driver *hates* 
    merc and BMW drivers (capitalist pigs..) and likes the challenge of driving 
    up a good 1:3 hill every now and again.
    
    BTW, Mark, the fact that your gloves are fleece-lined gives you back
    some street-cred back.  Gloves for keeping warm are OK, but they'd be
    better woollen or suede.
    
    Ruth.

>    However, re .31, all very nice, but I thought the reference was to evil
>    BMWs and snail-like Porsches, which were not even mentioned in the
>    reply.

IMHO...


Well... yes. What I said was that instead of categorising cars to types of 
drivers and vice-versa, the topic 'seemed' to be heading down the same old road.

Quote...

   "No wonder BMW drivers are lousy its a lousy car!."

and...

    "My estimation of BMW driver has lowered even further when a BMW 325i
     ..ran into the back of me.So much for the vaunted ABS"

Ok... slightly taken out of context I'll grant you, but I voiced an 'opinion'
that you could no more judge a BMW by the quality of the driver than you could 
judge the driver by the car. My other comments were based on how, up until a 
few years ago, people who couldn't afford 911s would justify not having one by
pointing out how badly they handled. Now, the 911 no longer handles badly ( if
indeed it ever did ) and now the car that comes so readily to signify the yuppy
culture/Thatcher youth whatever ( and thus to be denegrated ) is the BMW 3 
series. So here we have another supposed evil handling car so that people who 
don't have one can claim that they wouldn't entertain the idea of having one
because they are such "lousy cars".

Pre- E30, yes it handled like a greased pig, but it's much better now. Believe
me...

Phew !    :-)


As if you havn't guessed by now, I had a 3 series for 80,000 miles and I dont
consider myself a lousy driver. Having said that, mine didn't have standard 
suspension, wheels or tyres and went a lot quicker round bends than passengers
thought it would :-)

No offence taken or, I'm sure, indeed implied.

Ross
( I'm sorry... was this a five minute argument or the full half hour ? )

    
    Ross,
    
    (Boy this is a rathole!)
    
    The only people who spring to mind as having criticised the handling
    of the 3 series are people who have 'owned' them (Colin, Derek).
    
    Of course they'll always be people who are envious of other people's
    'better' cars, but you can hardly accuse people who've owned and
    disliked cars of being 'armchair experts' can you?
    
    Mark
    
      

    How about reverse carism, I drive a battered (a long story but my
    mother drove it into a stationary bus) 1980 BMW, nothing unusual
    but I never repaired the right hand front wing and bonnet, it's
    a mixture of primer/filler/rust preventer. The number of people
    that I overtake on the motorway and as soon as they see the mobile
    scrap heap proceed to overtake me, it's really quite amusing (most
    of these are Mercs, BMW's and large exec specials).
    
    Jan

Mark,

    I used the term "Armchair Expert" as a generalisation not as a derogatory
    comment towards anybody in this conference. If, as you point out, a given
    person has owned a car and disliked it for some quantifiable reason ( plain
    criticism about a car's handling is meaningless unless placed into context
    with other cars of similar performance ) then, yes, I accept such criticism.

    Hands up all those people who slag off types of cars with no personal
    experience or comparisons to draw upon. I know I'm guilty, I poke just as
    much fun at Skodas as the next person.

    I was going to mail Mr. Kennedy to point out that I didn't doubt the 
    validity of his judgements, I was mearly comparing judgements with groundless
    generalisations but seeing as you mention it yourself...

    Hope no-one was offended, but at least it started a GREAT rathole. Eh ?

Ross

    I had exactly the same response when I drove my 1972 VW Variant, good
    condition, but old, it used to wind up to pretty high speeds, due to
    the design of the old air-cool engine, it could keep these speeds up
    for ages (vw air cool engines top speed is its cruising speed!)
    Every Astra-Max, capri,MG etc I overtook, had to try to overtake me
    back, if only to justify their spending large �� dosh over the price of
    my car!
    
    P.S.  A good deal of the old MG midget boys never made it!!
     

    Hi Boys,
    
    Just to clear things up, I've a friend who sells Skodas, everytime I go
    to see him, he gets me to try the latest one out, have also tried out
    the Ladas, and also the original Fiats they were based on.
    
    For Mr Watsons benefit:-
    
    45,000 kms in new style 323i
    
    56,000 kms in a 911
    
    10,000 kms in an M3
    
    That is why I feel as if I was at least qualified to comment, and I
    know many others in this conference do not just 'shoot their mouths
    off'.
    
    Don't knock 'em 'till you've tried 'em.       

  Then there's a friend of mine who owns a Triumph Sprint that looked like an
  absolute heap - yet still managed to push out 140 Hp at the wheels!!! Speeds
  in excess of 120 mph were normal. You should have seen the GTi's and Crapris
  having a go at him... and lost. Alas the car is no more - it has been gutted
  for the mechanical installation in a kit car he's got - incidentally it will
  be for racing, and the whole thing is being brought up to racing spec.

  As for minis - what about the Cooper S's??? They look old and battered but
  it's possible to get a ton out of them (and I'm not talking about the latest
  'Cooperised' Mini Mayfairs either) - and they were the rally cars of the 70's
  ask Paddy Hopkirk what he thinks of them.

  Unfortunately I'm not expert on these mechanical racing bits - but I know
  a good driver when I'm a passenger - and that's what matters to me. I still
  like having a 'dig' at all these sterotypes though.

  Andy

  PS I got mixed up in a race between an XR2 and an XR3 a couple of years ago
     yet I 'won' without trying too hard. My car didn't give up on slight upward
     climbs like those two seemed to - the car??? An Allegro, so up yours!!! :-)
     Oh, it tended to lose these 'boy racers' on winding country lanes too -
     beautifully forgiving - when the hydrogas was correctly pressurised :-)

> I know many others in this conference do not just 'shoot their mouths off'.
 

Hmmm... I'll take that in the manner I'm sure it was intended.

    If you've never driben a particular type of car, the only evidence that
    people have is what they've seen, ie how other people drive a
    particular type of car.  One of the reasons for buying a particular
    type of car is it's image, - just look at the different types of car
    ads around,- therefor, in general any one car will attract a particular
    type of person. As I've said before in another note, Volvo's probably
    attract safety consious people, who don't drive fast because the equate
    speed with danger, and don't overtake because that causes accidents.
    This doesn't mean that the _Car_ is inherantly slow, or lacks
    acceleration. Give this car to someone who "wouldn't be seen dead in a
    Volvo" and they could well show another side to the car.
    
    Elaine

    Elaine,
    
    I think you've made a very good point there, and I would go further to
    say that it's not only the car's advertised image, but in *certain*
    groups, it is what is seen as an acceptable/desirable car to have according
    to one's peers that makes certain types of people buy certain types of
    car.  
    
    A yuppy buys a BMW or a Merc because he/she wants to have the image of
    a successfull career person (as do his/her peers/colleagues)
    
    A lager-lout buys a Cortina/Capri etc. because all his peers/friends have 
    one  
    
    So in other words it is a self-perpetuating situation.  People buy cars 
    to give them a certain image which the cars have because of the people who 
    buy them.
           
    
    Ruthie.

    re .48
    
    A cabin cruiser on wheels!!!
    
    Donald

I built my own...

    Don't knock Mercs. I had the opportunity to drive my girl friends
    when my car was in for a service. Normally I don't change my driving
    style when driving other cars (hire cars etc). What was really strange
    was that the car altered my driving style, was it the heavy feel
    of the vehicle, the funny manual transmission (slow gear changing),
    the slow revving motor I don't know. But after a few kilometeres
    I was like a REAL Merc driver...
    
    Jan

I did - and was glad to get back into my Volvo.

BTW, the ONLY car I've ever been car sick in in my life was a Merc 300SE (new
model).

    
    re:.51
    
    I'm not knocking Mercs. I'd like one very much please (a 190E would do
    nicely), and I had one on test before I got my BMW!
    
    I was just making an observation about the attitudes of some of the
    people who drive them, and it wasn't meant to be taken seriously
    anyway.
    
    David. (who can only afford a BX now (there's been no mention of a
    typical BX driver))

    OK I'l admit it - my other half drives a Merc and we swap cars
    occasionally for variety.  I find that as soon as I drive it I calm
    down - I don't feel the need to compete with other drivers - it's a
    good car for heavy traffic for that reason.
    
    On the other hand, I must admit my driving style changes.  Because you're 
    more relaxed and aren't intimidated by other drivers, you naturally become
    more 'cheeky' and push in where you wouldn't normally.  (If it's any
    consolation to the Merc-driver-haters I hate myself for doing it!) 
    
    It's also true that Mercs are fine in straight lines, but have a bit of
    a problem with corners.  You go round the corner, and then about 1
    minute later the rest of the car decides to follow - it's a weird
    feeling....
    
    Ruthie.

    
    I defy most people to get into a car when it's -nn without gloves,
    and drive it.  When you've got a leather steering wheel your hands
    would still like glue otherwise.
    
    Nigel
    
    p.s. I wouldn't mind an M3 if some one would like to do a swap :-)

    Ok, ok, what's going on here ? I have't looked into this notes
    files for 2 days and i find 200+ new messages ? And over Christmas
    there was about 5 in i week!
    
    That Turkey must be getting to you lot!
    
    Any way back to the topic.
    
    Semi sporty - XR* Gti(generally with the rabbit injection sticker)
    		  *turbo ...
    	
    		Mainly younger generation, but generally anyone who
    		wants something looking a little different and performing
    		it too.
    		Mind you most of them can't drive to save their life!
    		They have almost no sense of distance (primarily when
    		overtaking - ever seen one pull out to overtake and
    		then pull back in again because they've seen you with
    		10secs to spare coming the opposite way!
    		Anyway i still own one! But of course i'm a careful
    		and brilliant driver! ;-)
    
    Prestige Car - Rover New Bm Rolls Bentley Limo Merc
    
    		Some big fat rich man drooling over a cigar and young
    		chick (sexist!!!) or some young executive with a company
    		car.
    		Both drive like they own the road and smugly look at
    		you after they cut you to pieces.
    
    Cheapy Car - Fiesta Peugot Ax...
    
    		Young female who has always got a smile for you - if
    		you let them out of a junction - if not, don't look
    		back - they'll be swearing at you.
                       
    Motorbikers - i feel they need a say too
    
    		Anyone who zooms in and out of traffic and then you get
    		the youngsters thinking 'ill try that too' and end up
    		in the middle of the road with 20 cars coming towards
    		them and nowhere to go (Ha Ha !):-}
                                           
    Sporty Car - Porsche Ferrari Aston Lamborgininini....
                                       
    		These are the guys who drive at 5mph in the town and
    		never go faster - hold up all the traffic !
    		On the motorway you find them coming fast up behind
    		you flashing to move while you doing 120!
    
    Well there's just a few. There's loads more but right now i'm 
    going home, and going to overtake a few on the way. If i don't
    make it , ill take a few of them with me  :-) Well i am a XR*
    driver, i'm allowed to do that !!!!!!! :-) :-) :-) :-)
    
    Bye bye
    
    				Lewy .

    
    Ok, Derek, whats the prize ??
    
    This must have something to with the old Lockheed Starfighter which
    the German Air Force and Navy insisted on buying.  F10?  was it's
    number if i remember rightly.
    
    They were famous (infamous), for having the highest crash/mortality
    rate of any plane in Europe.  
    
    Very unstable, and very hard to fly safely....
    
    Nigel
    
    p.s. i'm still interested in an M3 swap.  Any takers ?  :-)

    re: BMWs
    
    Starfighters (F-105s) have a nasty habit of crashings. They have short
    stubby wings, and so are very unstable. Straight & level is reputed to
    be a bit tough.
    
    Oh, the pilots tend to be Americans flying over Germany, could have
    something to do with it !!! ;-) ;-) ;-)
    
    Colin

    
    
    Starfighter is/was designated F104.  Very fast in a straight line, but
    stalls on the bends :-0.
    
    Nev.

    
    	F104 was the Lockheed Starfighter, the Germans built their own
    under licence and a added a few mods. The BMW 3 series design team
    was lead by an Englishman, they were built by Germans too...
    
    	Both tend to crash frequently at the hands of Germans...
    
    	Rat

>      <<< Note 904.62 by BONNET::MARTIN "The Corporate Rat - 828 6236" >>>

    
>    	F104 was the Lockheed Starfighter, the Germans built their own
>    under licence and a added a few mods


And some 'pop'/'rock' group even made an LP about
the whole story

"Lets call it the F104G"
"G?  Why G?
"Er.. well.   G for Germany"
etc

Whats _was_ the group ?

  BMW drivers are ex starfighter pilot because...

  Did you hear the one about the 4 Luftwaffe F104's flying in formation....
  straight into the side of a mountain. It's all true, honest Guv... And they
  kept in formation too.

  Andy

The Germans and Canadians were the major buyers of Starfighters. Trouble was, 
they adapted them for something that they weren't designed for - namely staying
up in the air for a reasonable length of time!

The standard F-104 can stay up in the air for 32 minutes (8 minutes if he uses
afterburners all the time!), so unsuprisingly, they started fitting fuel tanks
on the wings. As previously pointed out, the wings are very short and stubby,
and this did nothing for their stability - hence the high number of crashes.


One last point on the wings. They are incredibly thin, and the leading edge is
very sharp. When its parked, they fit felt trim on it so that people don't cut
themselves.

Back to cars now?!

    Just a foot note on Lockhead starfighters,
    They used to launch them from the ground with additional booster
    rockets (jetesoned after take-off) on ramps, pointing at 45�, rather
    like V1 rockets, only with pilots!
    
    Carl.
    (off the topic/conference a bit, but all in the interests of science!)
                                

	Re .66,

	The only F-104s ever launched like this were so done experimentally
	by NASA/USAF for experiments unrelated to the the F-104 itself. The
	Starfighter is quite conventional in it's takeoff.

	FWIW, the V1 ( Doodlebug ) *WAS* originally test flown by pilots
	including Hanna Reich (sp?). This was featured in some film ( ten
	points for anyone who can name that film ? ) about the German rocket
	research efforts at Pinamunde (sp?) on the Baltic coast.

	Also, re ??, the F-105 was the Thunderchief ( or Thud ) ; a totally
	different plane...

	
	Why is a BMW like a Starfighter ? Both fast, expensive and neither
	fly very well ?


	Dave.

	P.S. there was a joke around in the seventies, went something like...

		"How do you get a free Starfighter ?"

		"Buy an acre of land in Germany and wait."

    
    I'd have thought _somebody_ would remember the semi-official nickname
    for the F104.....
    
    	The Widowmaker.            Interpret that as you will.
    
    
    
    Rathole shut now ?
    
    Ian

        > FWIW, the V1 ( Doodlebug ) *WAS* originally test flown by pilots
	> including Hanna Reich (sp?). This was featured in some film ( ten
	> points for anyone who can name that film ? )
    
    The film was Operation Crossbow, starring George Peppard and Sophia
    Loren.
    
    ...and why not indeed.
    

    
    
    At last, a note to let off the steam that builds up when you drive
    a lot!
    
    Again, this is just some general cases that I have noticed, no offence
    to anyone who drives one (except if you drive one like the 'offenders'
    do) etc....
    
    To start with the worst:
    
    1. Old style XR2 and Cavalier, Sierra 1.6L, Astras, XR3 and RsTurbo.
    
       - Dirty XR2s are generally driven by people about my age (17-25).
    It will be their 'dream car' - until they can afford the XR3/Astra
    GTE/RS Turbo- which will be a 'legend' with the rest of the 'lads'
    at the Ferret and Troosers, as the berk driving it swings his
    passengers around violently whilst driving like a maniac - whether
    the speed requires it or not. Strange that.
    
       - Old Cavaliers probably qualify by sheer numbers on the road,
    but a huge ammount are driven incredibly badly.Oddly enough, the
    SRi s  are driven pretty well, and the new Cavaliers are driven
    very carefully...
    
       - 1.6l Sierra. Hands up all who drive a hire-car with less care
    than their own? The classic 'rep' car for the man in the Fosters
    suit. Again, huge fleet sales, plus the severe pen*s envy that he
    hasn't got 2l says he (yes, he) must try and rocket from A to B
    as fast as possible. Don't bother trying. If you pass them in an
    Escort 1.6l (small car, same engine size) they cry.
    
       - Astras! The worst EVER!!! Drivers must sellotape the accelerator
    to the floor. For the man who can't afford a BMW. If you don't wear
    white socks in the showroom, they won't sell you one.
    
       - XR3(i), RS Turbo: Again, white socks. Someone has to notice
    them (male or female) so males either fill the car with their mates
    and drive a la XR2 (lots of violent twists of the wheel), OR constantly
    change lanes (on ANY road, not just dual/motorways). Beware! This
    guy is a 'larf'. Why not get out at the next service station and
    let his tyres down while he's 'getting the beers in' in the shop?
    Because he'll like the smoke effect of driving hard on flat tyres.
    Try breaking his windows instead. ++++  B*)))
    Females generally just drive too fast (say max speed of car - 2
    mph).
    
    - Volvos. 340s are driven by Oaps. 740/240s by frustrated XR* drivers
     who have families.
    
    - OAP car of the year: speeds which ARE DANGEROUSLY SLOW - Rover
    216 Vitesse. Runner up: the Metro.
    
    
    In my biased opinion, the best-driven cars are Japenese (except
    Suzuki jeeps), Jaguar, Bentleys, non-Volvo estates. Yes, this does
    include the MR2. I say biased as I was given a Cortina estate for
    my first car (nb note difference between saloon - better driven),
    and the Escort estate (smallish) both aren't driven by the lot who
    drive the above. I get ultra-p***ed off about hte insurance I pay
    to subsidise them because of my age (20), and as soon as I can afford
    the lessons I'll study for the IAM test.
    
    Carl_who_drives_considerately_and_carefully_inspite_of_what_most_of_
    his_mates_do_when_they_drive_and_of_what_they_think.
    
    BTW, the Cortina estate is pretty much of a tank, soooooo..... next
    time you drive up behind me and flash your lights I might just brake
    rather too suddenly.......  B*))))))
    
            
    
    
    
    
    
    
                             
    

    
    Carl,
    
    Don't bother paying through the nose for IAM lessons - get in touch
    with your local IAM group (where are you?), and become an associate
    member. They'll provide free advice.
    
    Bi||.

    
    
    Thanks, Bill - I'll check out the library for some info. Unfortunately
    I'm stuck in the sticks (Newmarket office)where it's necessary to drive
    in the middle of the road most of the time where I live - hazards
    on the side of the road include large horses, deep mud and HUGE
    potholes! 
      BTW, is it OK to try the BSM or whatever, find an instructor with
    IAM status and learn off them?? Wouldn't have thought they teach
    this to many people here.
                                               Carl
     

    > Lewis_who_also_drives_a_la_XR2 (New style, so no jokes OK!!!!) ;-)     

    I hope you mean the style they've just phased out, and not the NEW
    XR2i, or the joke's on you! :^)

    Mark
    

    Re: 904.74
    
    Ok my mistake, i mean the mk 2 and not the new no characteristic's
    XR2i that looks too much like the pug!
    
    Lewis_and_that's_no_joke !!

>>Note 904.73                 Are you guilty of Carism?                   73 of 75
RUTILE::BISHOP                                       16 lines   9-JAN-1990 12:26
>>    I bet you wanted a mini just so you could drive in the middle of
>>    the road and have a DECENT excuse !    
>>    Lewis_who_also_drives_a_la_XR2 (New style, so no jokes OK!!!!) ;-)     
    
   Nah, just a volvo  so I'd take up ALL the road
                           
                        B*)))
                                                     Carl

    Re .75
    
    Quite agree about the XR2i looking like a pug - I find the drivers look
    just the same (let's get *really* carist now.....). They seem to be
    older than the older model XR2 drivers too.
    
    Ruth.

    ..... the F104 was also called the "Flying coffin".
    
    ...... It was also bought by Italy and Japan and is still being
    flown by Italy and Turkey. (When the Yanks "gave" military kit title
    remained with them and at the time of becoming surplus to a user
    they were simply refurbished and moved down the NATO chain a bit.
    Turkey has only just turned in its last F100 Super Sabre!)
    
    .... The original ejector seat was a downward type ie it was blasted
    out through the floor. The manufacturer told Lockheed that it was
    a zero-zero seat (ie no speed no altitude safe ejection) until someone
    pointed out that that meant stationary on the tarmac and they couldn't
    find anybody to test the seat. 

    
> But if you see a driver with the open backed ones i agree 
> especially drivers of ancient fibreglass sports cars :-))

  Can't mean me! My gloves don't have open backs!
    
    Mark