Conference terri::cars_uk

    re .55 Derek
    
    the prospect of fitting a holly has raised its ugly head again - have
    you got a ref for RoverCraft?? - thanks - jim murray
    

    
     I have lost the clutch in my Landy - has anyone seen it? :-) 
    
     Seriously though - can anyone offer any suggestions. The clutch plate and
    release bearings were renewed last August, and then in September the
    master cylinder started leaking, so I renewed the seals, and, believing
    in preventative maintainance I also completely replaced the slave
    cylinder. About three weeks ago the clutch stopped working, so I bled the 
    system, then resorted to replacing the master cylinder (with a recond. 
    unit). About 2 litres of fluid have passed through the system to try to 
    get pressure - to no avail. HELP! - I'm fed up of spending my weekends 
    lying under the Landy getting covered in clutch fluid - it tastes
    horrible!
    
    Elaine 
                        
                     

    If you are getting no pressure at all, it has got to be either the
    master cylinder, or perhaps a flexible hose expanding and contracting
    (I've see this with brake hoses at least ...).

    Are you sure that the second master cylinder worked before you fitted
    it ???

  Mark

    any chance of checking inside the bell housing ?
    
    I had a similar problem with a Sprite - loads of hydraulic fluid
    going into the system, but no pressure.
    
    Transpired that the slave cylinder was leaking into the bell houseing
    somehow. Took the rubber gaiter off of the release arm and all the
    fluid poured out. Needless to say the friction plate was soaked
    in fuild too.
    
    Tony.

I have seen this problem on a mini.  On that occassion, it was impossible to 
prime the master cylinder while it was connected to the hydraulic pipes to 
the slave cylinder.  

If you are getting no fluid out of the slave cylinder when you try bleeding it
then this might be the answer.  On the mini, we had to prime the master cylinder
by removing the pipe to the slave cylinder and putting a finger over the hole to
stop air being sucked back in during the upstroke of the pedal.  Continue until
you get oil coming out.

Good luck,

Mike. 

    
    I'm getting fluid out of the slave end - and I don't think I'm loosing
    it into the bell housing, but I cant see any drain hole/anywhere to
    look - for leaking fluid. The pipes are mostly inflexible metal - and I
    can't see any evidence of leaks around the joins. 
    
    I think tonights job is going to be removing the slave cylinder - while
    remembering to keep mouth and eyes shut! 
    
    Elaine
    
    

    So, could you sum up the symptoms again please. I don't think I have
    understood ;-{}

    - you are not loosing fluid
    - the master cylinder manages to push fluid out of the slave cylinder
    with the bleed valve open
    - when the bleed valve is closed, the master cylinder does not manage 
    to activate the clutch operating arm

    If this is the case, it has to be the master cylinder. If it were the
    slave cylinder, you would be loosing fluid somewhere ...

  Mark
    
    

    
    I don't think I'm losing fluid, but it is difficult to tell - it would
    be going into the bell housing. I'm beginning to wonder if the re-cond
    master cylinder is ok. - 
    
    Elaine
    
    Last night I checked the flexible part of the clutch line while Derek
    pumped the clutch pedal - but it didn't seem to 'balloon' at all.
    

    So, it sounds like the piston in the master cylinder is letting the
    fluid past, rather than pushing it down to the slave cylinder ...

    With the bleed valve open there is little or no resistance, so the
    master cylinder piston , even if not sealing properly, should be able
    to push the fluid out of the valve.

    Did you re-con the master cylinder yourself ??? If not, why don't you
    try a re-con on the old one ...

  Mark

    
    The master cylinder which _was_ on the Landy was suspect, I had done the
    re-con myself because it was leaking fluid, - that cured the problem
    for a while, but then I started to 'loose' the clutch, so I fetched it
    off, and checked it - it seemed a bit rough inside, so I got the
    re-conn from the Landrover place in Yately (as recommended by Simon
    French) - and he took my old master cylinder. I have got another one
    around somewhere, so maybe I'll just get a set of seals and try that
    one!

    Re .67 . Hope they are performing seals ...
    
    m
    

    
    The Landy is fixed (at last). My brother came to give me a hand on
    Saturday. We had the gear box out by 10.00, and found the source of the
    problems....the clutch plate had siezed onto the flywheel, and because
    the pressure plate was worn, it could not 'unstick' the clutch plate!
    The original problem probably was the master cylinder, but because it
    took me a while to get round to sorting it out, it gave the clutch
    plate time to sieze! That'll teach me to get on with fixing things instead
    of resorting to other means of transport and waiting for a nice day!
    
    My brother had brought a complete set of spares with him, so by lunch
    time we'd got the prop shafts re-connected, and had done a quick test
    trip round the estate!  
    
    Derek took my brother for a trip in the 23, _one_ of his comments was
    how low it was - he normally drives a V8 Range Rover, and he does his 
    racing in Land Rover trials and competition safaris!
    
    All I've got to do now is finish putting all the bolts back in the floor 
    pan and seating box, (and getting rid of the rust on the seat belt 
    mountings) and it should be all ready to tow the 23 to Pembrey!
    
    Elaine
          

    Does anyone know how I can get a Range Rover Manual for free? Ive just
    been told its 15 pound to get a new one!!. I just want an old used one
    for a '84/85 ranger in The Gambia. I need this by 19/4 (as I am On my
    way there the next day!!) Anyone out there to help??
    
    Eddie
    
    If I really have to buy a new one.. well so be it, but I thought I'd
    try this note 1st.
    
    THANKS

anyone have any info. on a landrover 'Lightweight'? (ex MOD)

i'm thinking of buying one

thanks...


...art

    
    What do you wand to know? - I'm just about to buy one with a Rover V8
    engine and Range Rover gear box.
    
    It is very difficult to give any guidance on price etc, because age is
    almost irrelevant, it depends on where it's been, what it's been used
    for, what's been done to it, what you want it for etc etc.........

the sort of thing that i'd want is something original (ie. no change of engine 
or gearbox etc)
were they available with a diesel engine?
mpg?
towing capacity?
was a hardtop available?
whats the significance of the 24v system (radio cars)- what difference does this
make on the road?
are they still being built?
spares availability?
ease of working on?
what sort of condition are ex MOD vehicles in?

it'll be mostly used on the road.
hope to spend about �2K on it (if not less)


ta.

...art

    
    Don't they drop lightweights out of aeroplanes?
    
    Mark

    
    >> were they available with a diesel engine?   I think so, diesels can
    be a good buy, since the 'creap' of any diesel fuel protects the
    chassis members!
    
    >> mpg?  depends - electronic ignition? freewheel hubs? petrol/diesel?
    
    >> towing capacity? Can't remember - but lot
    
    >> was a hardtop available? Yes
    
    >>whats the significance of the 24v system (radio cars)- what difference does this
      make on the road?   Don't know
    
    >> are they still being built?  Yes
    
    >> spares availability? no problem
    
    >> ease of working on? depends - changing the clutch compnents is a
    real &*&^$$ unless you've got a hoist to lift out the gearbox inside
    the passenger area - tools and components can be heavy! - you're
    average car jack will _not_ do the job! - but on the other hand - many
    jobs can be done underneath without having to jack it up - so it is far
    safer.
    
    >> what sort of condition are ex MOD vehicles in? I think they are
    usually chacked and serviced by the suppliers before being released.
    

    >>it'll be mostly used on the road.
    >>hope to spend about �2K on it (if not less)  You may be able to get
    one for this, depending on age condition etc. (always a good get-out
    :-)  ) Where are you thinking of getting it from - private sale or 
    a dealer?

    

re sapares: every spare for every Land Rover ever made is available from 
official Land Rover spares outlets.

To prove the point and raise money for charity they built a couple of old
(Series II?) landies in less than 24 hours, entirely from Land Rover Spares
as part of the recent telethon (they were then given to Riding for the Disabled 
I  believe).

Lightweights were air mobile, but very few were parachute dropped... ;-)

24V systems are useful if you plan running a winch or a lot of off-road 
lights...

They are still being made but current ones are based on the Land Rover 90
chassis...

/. Ian .\

thanks Elaine, Ian...


re.24v systems; i've read that the trade dealers buy these vehicles at MOD 
auctions and then convert them to 12v at great expense/hassle; why do 
they bother with this conversion?! 

the winch would be useful for driving up dam walls  :-)

the reasons behind my interest in the lightweight were:
1)appearance
2)better economy (from it being lightweight)

there seems to be very few privately available ones around (there was one in
last weeks auto trader) many seem to have been converted into racers...
...maybe i'm looking in the wrong place tho'


...art

    
    Try buying a copy of LRO (Land Rover Owner) magazine. Smiths usually
    have a copy. There is a 'for sale' section, but these are private
    sales, and so you have to have some idea what you are looking at when
    it comes to decideing what state it is in/price.
    
    Also, the address for PRB (the biggest ex MOD LR supplier). They are in
    Leeds, but the may be worth a call. There are other ex MOD dealers, one
    near Brighton, I believe, but I don't know anything about them. 
    
    Another source if info, and vehicles, would be from members of the
    various Landrover clubs.  Not all of their vehicle will have be
    used/abused :-) off-road.  Mine (or the one that I've nearly bought)
    was used as the towing vehicle for someones 'racer'. 
    
    Re the 24 V - I suppose they are converted so as to be compatible
    'normal' electrical stuff - such as bulbs and radios.
    

    Can't you buy MOD stuff at MOD auctions? 
    
    Mark

    
    I guess so - but (as with all auctions) you've got to know what you are
    doing, and you're up against the professionals. I know that a lot of
    MOD stuff is sold as a 'job lot' - this probably doesn't apply to
    vehicles, but I don't know....
    
         10 assorted vehicles, any bids for this lovely cheiftan tank.....
    
    ps - the places that buy-up these job lots are fascinating just to
    wander round and see what they've found in the vaious crate-fulls of
    'miscellaneous parts'.

I bought an ex-military 109 at auction many years ago.

They had 20 and the first 19 where all contested. Howver it appeared the farmers
had traded themselves out - the 20th didn't reach a sensible price and my 
tentative bid of �150 got the vehicle... (the rest averaged over the thousand)

/. Ian .\

    
    Ther are some good books on Land-Rovers around, probably in the local
    library. The one I have covers the lightweights in some depth.
    
    I remember being suprised how limited the towing capacity was, but the
    book is not to hand at the moment. If I find it, I'll post some more
    info.

the towing capacity rating is for OFF ROAD towing - being a military vehicle
they don't quote an "on road" rating. The Off road rating is much lower because 
of the wider range of angles the load is presented to the hitch at (if memory
recalls it is something like 500 kg off road and 3000 kg on road).

/. Ian .\

    
    What I find with the 2.25 l petrol engine in my (normal) seies III
    Landy, is that although it will keep going up any hill - you've
    really got to use the gears, and you do loose a lot of speed, with the
    23 + trailer ( I guess just over 1 ton).  The reason I am getting a V8
    is that I want the extra 'umph' to be able to maintain speed while
    climbing. On motorway driving, if it is flat the 2.25 will tow at 55ish
    and sit there quite happily in overdrive, but at anything more than the
    slightest incline, I need 4th or 3rdoverdrive to maintain speed. 
    
    What do you want to tow? 

    
    Have just seen the Graham Robson book on Range Rovers & Land Rovers
    being remaindered in Reading.
    
    Excellent book, now priced at �3.99 in the Bargain Book Centre (or
    similar) in the Arcade opposite the Town Hall. Strongly recommended.
    Has technical specs, model histories, mucho pix etc.
    
    I paid much more for my copy ......

                                                              
    I am now the proud owner of a ex-mod lightweight Landy, which has been
    fitted with a re-built Rover V8 engine. The chassis etc are in good
    shape, but the paintwork requires attention - it is bright apple green!
    When Derek has decided what colour the 23 is going to be - I'll do the
    Landy in the team colours!
    
    The major area of work is a complete re-wire, since the old 24V stuff
    is still there, along with the 12V system! 
    
    Derek decided that all the old petrol pipes ( a mixture of ordinary
    black tubing, which had gone brittle, and the braided plastic stuff)
    should be replaced. He seems to have this thing about petrol fires in
    engines......... :-)    it cost me a small fortune for all that
    Goodridge hose and fittings, but he did do the job for me!

    
    Anyone who has an overdrive on their Landy - watch out!
    
    My brother was telling me about a garage which had 10 Landy's on the
    forcourt, all wheel clamped to deter would-be thieves. One Monday
    morning it was noticed that there were 10 overdrive units missing! It
    is a very quick and easy job to remove the unit from underneath, don't
    even have to jack up the vehicle!
    
    

    
    Re .87
    
    Wouldn't fit a Marcos would they?
    
    Mark

    
    I don't know how much 'hot' overdrives are being sold for, but you can
    get recon units for about �300. 
    
    Don't know if they would fit a Marcos though.....

    
    Hopefully I don't need one anyway! :^)
    
    Mark
    
    PS The box is out of a old Ford (Zephyr I think)
    
    

    
    Is there nobody out there with a Perkins 4-203 diesel conversion?
    
    My old man is on his second one now, it's a '65 Series IIA 88 he's had
    for about 12 years and did the conversion way back then. It's got
    series III front wing panels (outboard headlamps) and grille, and is
    fair dinkum tidy for its age, in fact there's a picture of it in
    "Caravan" magazine, May 1990, along with his cute little Safari 14/2
    caravan.
    
    As was mentioned in Simon French's note earlier, these things bung out
    enough torque to pull a house down, even with 3.5:1 diffs from a Rover
    3-litre automatic (also current Range Rover I think) and 7.50x16 tyres
    the Old Boy only has to use 2nd & 4th gear!
    
    The conversion's not too bad to do, although I believe the cost of the
    conversion (bell housing adaptor & engine mounts) is over a Big Note
    these days, the Old Man's just procured another one to stuff into an
    old ('75) Rangie he's rebuilding (Boy, do these things rot!!!).
    
    The power to weight ratio looks like it could be a problem when using a
    4-203 in a Rangie; the wee Landie weighs just about 1.5 tons, where the
    Rangie is nearer 2 tons and with the reduction in BHP from 115 to 65
    it's probably going to go like a cow. Additional trouble is going to
    come from trying to find a side-draught manifold and shallow
    rocker-cover & sump for the Perky; the Rangie bonnet is just a shade 
    too low to get the engine in without it knocking a dent in the bonnet 
    above the air inlet and oil filler cap, and I believe the sump gets in
    the way of the front cross-member.
    
    Is there anybody who's done this conversion before? I'd be interested
    to hear of any tales of woe since I'll probably have to do most of the
    work on this one, however I've just heard from the landlord in my local
    that there's a '78 Rangie lying locally with a 7-litre Chevvie diesel
    partially installed which may be procured at the "right" price...hmmmm,
    maybe I can convert the Old so and so.........!
    
    Does anybody know of anything to do with turbo-ising a 4-203 or where
    to get info on doing so? It's an alternative for the Rangie that might
    work... the bottom end on the 4-203 is plenty strong enough to cope I
    think.
    
    Any info would be welcomed with open arms!
    
    Cheers,
    
    	Les Cowan, South Queensferry Manufacturing.
      

I had asked about this and was told its a no-no by Dave Miles of Safari
Engineering (0734 732732). I would in fact recomend not to install the 4/203.

Yes it is a good engine and should last for years... but be prepaired to stock
up on gear boxes and bits! :-(

You can use the 4/203 if you are _very_ carfull with that left foot.

Simon

    
    As mentioned in the kit car note, we've been having fun sorting out my 
    'new' Landy for towing the 23 up to Mallory yesterday! Much of the work
    was what I expected we would have to do, some of it was induced by
    Derek's paranoia, (like the petrol hoses :-) ) and some of it was just
    the Landy damanding more attention than I had expected!
    
    I bought it, really, for it's engine - a V8 with only 24,000 miles, and
    the chassis was in good condition, the rest of the running gear didn't
    seem too bad, and only the bodywork looked as if it needed immediate
    attention, - the bulkhead had been removed, and the roll cage which had
    been fitted to compensate had subsequently also been taken out.
    
    Anyway, by last Monday, we had completed the body strengthening, petrol
    system, new clutch hydraulics (one day I'll learn that if I touch the
    slave cylinder, always check the condition of the master! :-)  ),
    heater bypass, (heater taken out to enable access to clutch slave, and
    make re-painting easier), new comfy seat for the driver.These were the 
    jobs I expected to do.
    
    Unexpected work - (done last week, with two days taken up in failing my
    bike riding test!)
    leaking oil seal in rear axle, 
    loss of braking on three out of the four wheels (don't ask - that's 
    another job to be done) - which was due to air in the system, and one of 
    the bleed screws was siezed in, so it sheared, - one replacement slave....
    
    Eventually (apparently) ready  to go about 4.00pm on Sat. - so get the
    trailer (with the Maestro), load the 23, hitch up, and test the lights.
    All we have is tail lights and one indicator *&*^**&. I thoght this was
    due to a loose wire, but when Derek took it to pieces it was due to
    missing wires! and we had no wiring diagram for a hitch socket.
    (There's no wiring diagram for the Landy either - all the old 24V
    wiring is in there too - its a nightmare, and most of the 12V stufff
    seems to be made up of 3" lengthd stuck together!) Anyway, after
    chasing all round to try to get a new socket, etc, (and new torch
    battries, since Derek was moaning that he could not distinguish the
    colours of wires in the sodium street lamp (moan moan moan)), we
    eventually ended up at abou 11pm, with a re-wired Landy and trailer,
    so start it up and off we go............ no chance - by this time there
    was not enough left in the Landy battry to start it. So fetch the
    Maestro, jump start the Landy, and off I go for a drive! 
    
    We decided we'd had enough, and went to bed - and left at 6am Sunday.
    The Landy behaved perfectly, and the V8 engine is great -
    
    Now, jobs to do before Pembrey..........

    
    Re: 449.92,
    
    As I mentioned at the start of the note, this thing's had a 4-203 in it
    for 12 years and not one half-shaft or gearbox hiccup in all that time.
    The Old Boy hauls a huge trailer full of tractor bits, engines, lathes
    (!?!) cement mixers, you name it. I used to pull my boat around with it
    most weekends and never a squeak out of it. Mind you, he does keep a
    spare 4-203 and gearbox (not the dreaded Series III type) in a corner 
    just in case.........
    
    Les

Well, just to satisfy its lust for inconvenience, the Perky has decidied to
commit suicide.

On the way to Winnersh yesterday morning there cam a loud thump, thump, thump
from the engine. I think it may be a com rod but I am not an engineer so I 
don't actually know.

Does anyone have a spare V8 I can have, or even an original Landrover petrol
2� or Diesel engine.

Simon

    
    Simon,
    
    Perkies have remarkably robust cranks; it's worth whipping the sump off
    and removing the offending big-end cap to see what the journal's like.
    If it's not too eggoid (great word for describing ovality) the shells
    can be changed without any hassle and odds-on it'll last for a good
    while longer.
    
    Remember the darn thing's basically a fork-lift truck engine and they
    are pretty under-worked.
    
    Cheers,
    
    	Les 

So far the perky has cost me about �800 in gear box repairs. The sooner I get
rid of it the better. I havn't found a new (secondhand) overdrive to replace
the one the engine broke 6 months ago.


Simon

By the way, your reply sounds like an offer to do it for me   ;-)

    Is there a Land Rover franchise around Andover/Basingstoke/Winchester?
    

    
    Webbers in Basingstoke.
    
    Mark

    
    Simon,
    
    Where's node "MCGRUE" then?............
    
    Yesterday I went to look at a Rangie for the Old Man; I'd been talking
    to Land-Rover Barney in the Anchor (in South Queensferry) after
    supplying him with a diff for his IIA (another story), and he let out
    that there's a '77 Rangie with a Chevvy V8 Diesel going for grabs in
    Roddinglaw (local).
    
    Anyway, to cut a long story shortish, I managed to find the original
    perpetrator of this propaganda, who happens to be the local traffic
    cop, Big Boab Sneddon. He gave me directions to this bloke's place, so
    onto the trusty 400-4 and away into the Scotch Mist........
    
    This Rangie has, sure 'nuff, a Chevvy V8 of about 5.6 litres stuffed
    under the bonnet, a recently rebuilt gearbox with the higher-ratio
    conversion, uprated springs all round, new tyres, much welding, a
    re-upholstered interior (well done too) and numerous other goodies.
    Only problem is, he ran it dry and bust the crankshaft, knocking a hole
    in the block at the same time.
    
    He tells me that it's cost him �8000 altogether (hmmmmm.) and got sick
    of it after he blew it up so it's been lying for a year.
    
    Various other points of keep-the-price-up propaganda were stated, until
    I eventually discovered he wanted �1500 for it with the blown engine.
    He assures me it will do 115 and 26 mpg (more hmmmmm) and a replacement
    engine will cost �1000.
    
    Needless to say, on conferring with Pop, who was hoping to procure the
    thing for half that figure, the man is still in possession of his
    Range-Rover. I don't think the price is too far out of the park, even
    for Scotland, but my mother is about ready to poison you-know-who if he
    brings home any more vehicles - he just got rid of five Mk II Jags last
    year only to appear with his current Rangie and an ancient Ford
    Popular. Wee Henry is running and in dry storage waiting for "a man to
    come round the corner and offer me a turn at it", while the Rangie has
    had about �2000 spent on it already and it's still nowhere near
    completion.
    
    Ah well, c'est la Vie. No doubt I'll get hooked into going to look at
    something else or spraying/rebuilding/stripping what the Old Codger
    already has. Such is life in a motor-trade originated family.
    
    Just give me my Citreii, a nice Light Fifteen or a decent DS Safari
    will do me nicely, meantime I have to make do with a BX and a
    Dyane.....
    
    Cheers,
    
    	Les 
    

Mcgrue, Pugh and RDGDQS (boring!) are all part of the Trumpton (TRMPTN::)
cluster. My workstation is a sat. off the cluster and is called FORSAN,
you work it out.

Unfortunatly we all reside is sunny Reading.

I like the idea of the Chevvey I wonder if it would fit in the Mortage
(pet name for my Landy).

Cheers,
Simon.

If the Chevy diesel is a 350ci size, beware. These engines were a cheap/
quick attempy by GM to meet US government regulations in imposed 
several years ago. The engine is basically a gas engine made to run as a
diesel. The scrap yards in the US are littered with these things as they
were a weak design. Now if the engine is from a truck (read BIG) then that's
a whole different story.

350ci gas Chevy engines, on the other hand, are the latest version of the
legendary 'small block' and will run forever. I *think* that the diesel and
gas engines are interchangeable as far as size, mounting etc.

    re-1
    
    Yes the Deisel is basically a converted petrol unit.
    
    Grant

    
    Re previous two notes; If I'm understanding correctly, are you saying that
    this Chevvy unit (petrol or diesel) is just a big brother to our
    small-block 3500cc Buick unit normally fitted to Range-Rovers?
    
    If so, much as it would be nice (!?! wow !?!) to fit a petrol version,
    the general idea behind fitting diesels in the UK is for the economy,
    and to a lesser degree, torque output. What would such diesel units
    normally be fitted to in the States?
    
    Les

    re-1
    
    They would be fitted to something like a 4x4 of road pickup (E.G Full
    size Chevy Blazer).  These pickups have 130+" wheelbase and are huge
    thus they need all the power they can get, engine options are petrol or
    Diesel engines ranging from a tiny 2.8Litre V6 to a 5.7Litre V8
    (petrol or Deisel).
    
    You have to remember that in the US the run of the mill engines (Non
    performance) are very lacking in HP thus they need the Cubic inches to
    get more power.
    
    The 5.7Litre V8 Deisel I assume would be used in small trucks and vans.
    
    Grant

The Chevy (note in the US these is only 1 v...) 350 is an outgrowth of
the 265ci engine introduced in 1955. The Rover 3.5liter engine is the
outgrowth of a BOP (Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac) alluminum engine first
produced in 1961/62. The BOP engine was discontinued due to difficulties
in casting alloy blocks (expensive) and the development of better thin-
wall steel casting techniques. The two engines are not related in any
way except they are both V8s.

I'm not sure why the diesel version of the 350 failed. It could be the
design, it could be lack of proper owner maintainence. In any case they
have a very bad reputation in the US. In fact for a while there were 
many firms that would convert cars to gas (by using a scrap yard engine).
Now that the diesel V8s are mostly gone I imagine no one bothers anymore.

Chevy(GM) does make a larger diesel V8, used in trucks and large 4x4's,
Surburbans etc. Not sure what size.

Another option (gas) you might want to consider is a small block Ford
engine. They come in 221/250/260/289/302/351 ci sizes/ They are smaller
(dimensionally) and lighter than the Chevys. There were never any diesel
versions of these engines.

FWIW, the 350 Chevy engine is used in all GM V8 powered cars including
Cadilac! A few years ago there was a law suit because someone found they
had a Chevy engine in their Buick or some such. At the time I think GM
was having labor troubles at one engine plant and substituted engines
from another. The end result was that GM was not allowed to advertize
that Buicks had Buick engines etc. Now there all pretty much the same 
anyway.

             <<< GENRAL::DISK$OURDISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]4WD.NOTE;10 >>>
                               -< 4 Wheel Drive >-
================================================================================
Note 1211.0                    Land Rover Defender                    No replies
BRABAM::PHILPOTT "Col I F 'Tsingtao Dhum' Philpott"  70 lines  27-SEP-1990 04:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well they've gone and done it...

They've given a name to the "classic" Land Rover. Effective immediately they are
to be known as "Defender" models, and come in three ranges: 90, 110, and 130.

Current military production has a Torsen rear axle (ie an automatic torque 
sensing locking diff). When the current military order is finished it is very 
likely that civilian Defenders will get the Torsen axle.

Defender 130:

Previously called the 127, this special order machine is now available as either
a crew cab (6 seat, 4 door cab, 1400 kg payload) or high capacity pickup, with
either the old 3.5 litre V8 engine or the 2.5 litre TDi engine (from the 
Discovery). This vehicle remains the basis for many of the specials from SVO
(Special Vehicle Operations), such as ambulances, three axle flatbeds, crane
chassis etc, etc etc.

Available direct from the factory (ie to fleet buyers, or from dealers on order)
at "price on application"

Defender 90:

Available as a soft top, pickup, hard top (commercial panel van), or station 
wagon, with a choice of 2.5 TDi, 2.5 normally aspirated diesel, 3.5 litre V8 
petrol engine or 2.5 litre petrol engine.

Note the 90 County has been deleted from the range.

In the UK models available from the factory are priced as follows (� sterling)

			TDi		diesel		3.5 V8		2.5 

Hard top				11746.10	12238.30
Station Wagon		14969.93

Models available from dealers showrooms:

			TDi		diesel		3.5 V8		2.5 

Pick-Up			12262.45					10309.75
Hard Top		12705.20					10752.50

Other models are not available in the UK.

Defender 110:

Available as a soft top, pick up, high capacity pickup, hard top, station wagon,
or in County trim ("luxury" station wagon). Station wagons have multiple 
configurations of seats, ranging from 5 seats to 12... Prices here are for the
normal 11/12 seater options.

Four engines are offered: 2.5 TDi, 2.5 diesel, 3.5 V8, and 2.5 petrol.

From the factory you have:

			TDi		diesel		3.5 V8		2.5 

Hard Top		14337.05	13291.35
Station Wagon 12-str	15927.50	14871.80	15364.00	13878.20

From the dealers' showroom.

Pick-Up			13668.90			13105.40
High capacity PU	14308.30			13744.80
Hard Top						13773.55	12287.75
County 12-str		17007.35			16540.45 

/. Ian .\

Due to the fact that my old landy engine has terminal big end death I have 
decided to buy another one. Being delivered Tuesday is a 5 seat (half!) Safari.

The beast has the Range Rover V8 3.5 Lt engine and gearbox. It is a four door
vehicle which has two seats, three seats and utility box behind that.

Simon.

Its a bit faster than the pickup ever was... (even when it was healthy)

/. Ian .\

    
    As Derek mentioned in the 'racing' note, we had a couple of problems
    with the Landy over the weekend.
    
    What started the trouble was the decision to take the second set of
    wheels for the 23. This extra weight was the final straw for one of the
    rear set of springs. When we arrived at Silverstone the Landy had a
    very pronounced lean! (I knew both rear springs needed replacing, but
    expected to survive until after Mallory) No problem, we were
    only 50-60 miles away from my brother's house and a 'spare' Landy.
    
    Anyway, after the race I tried to set off to collect it - had problems
    starting, which we put down to having used the lights the night before
    to illuminate the tent pitching. Anyway 4.30, and I was off. After
    about 35 miles, it died. I suspected the battry, and sure enough, by
    using the spare battry I could start up the engine again. No problem,
    except that this battry was physically too big to fit in, so I
    'persuaded' it to fit, by bending the horn out of the way, and using
    bits of inner tube (lying at the side of the road) as insulation from
    the bonnet, and using a pair of shoe-laces to tie the bonnet down! 
    Great, get off the motorway, and I'm only 15 miles from 'home'......
    nasty smell of hot sulphuric acid.....  the battry had 'bounced' and
    the casing had been worn through by the alternator.... so that was it,
    stuck. I liberally doused everything with the bottle of tonic I had
    with me, and called the RAC. Someone was with me within half an hour,
    and was absolutely fascinated by the vehicle, but was totally unable to
    do anything about it, so had to call out the tow truck. Anyway, I
    eventually get to my brothers. (He was racing this weekend, so he
    wasn't around to come and collect the 'broken' Landy. I wish he'd get
    his race meetings to not coincide with my disasters :-)  ) Anyway,
    I collect the spare Landy (my old one) and set off back to collect
    Derek, who has been hanging around an empty race circuit for several
    hours! At 11.30 I eventually arrived back having had to drive through
    horrible patchy fog, and more than a little apprehensive about the state
    of the vehicle I'm driving, since it's been parked up for about 2
    months. We decided not to try to get back to Reading, but to re-pitch
    the tent and stay for another night! Arrived home about 10 am Sunday
    morning. 
    

Elaine,

I have this spare ;-) Landy if your interested!


Simon

    
    Oh dear,
    
    Hope you get it fixed soon.
    
    Mark

    
    Spoke to the LandRover-racing half of the family last night - the
    engine has been steam cleaned, (to get rid of any remaining sulphuric
    acid) - prices for new heavy duty springs and shocks have been
    negotiated, and goods purchased! A new heavy duty battery has been
    acquired! The problem was not the alternator, (as diagnoed by the RAC)
    but a dead battery. I'll be going up to the Midlands some weekend after
    Mallory to help fit the new parts! 

    
    I read last night of a Landy owner who's insurance company has refused
    to pay out after an accident, on the grounds that the policy was null
    and void - because the person had fitted bull-bars, and had not
    informed the company of this modification............
    
    

    Re bull bars
    
    I can see some logic to this; presumably it would make a difference to
    the nature and scope of own and other party damage.
    
    Steve

�    I can see some logic to this; presumably it would make a difference to
�    the nature and scope of own and other party damage.
    
    I say that would only be a (feeble) excuse - it may even
    reduce the amount of damage to own vehicle.
    
    The insurance company are actually following their policy
    description to the letter - ANY modifications to the vehicle
    should be reported to them, otherwise policy may be declared
    null and void.
    
    As the previous heading stated 'sharks'.
    
    If they do invalidate the insurance, I don't suppose they
    would be so kind as to give a refund either ?
    
    I can understand the reasoning behind their statements, but I should
    think they would be a bit upset if the owner of every car informed
    them whenever they had *any* change to the vehicle specification.
    That could even include fitting an exhaust from the local
    'quick-fit' centre - that make the car differ from the original spec...
    
    They would have to draw the line somewhere, but 'bull bars' ?
    They are even optional extras on some vehicles, but I bet they
    do not expect you to inform them whether you have purchased this
    option when you get such a vehicle.
    
    J.R.

Well, I am now helping as a civilian instructor with the ATC. I was asked if I
could supply some transport for the weekend as a group of cadets were going to
walk from Watership Down to Coombe Gibbit (sp?) (C.G.) On Saturday we awoke to 
the falling of fluff-n-stuff. 

We left the ATC HQ and headed, in blizzard conditions, towards Watership Down.
We dropped the cadets (with leaders) and headed off for home. Later that day I
filled two flasks with coffee and aimed for C.G. 

Due to total lack of knowledge of the area I had help by local Radio Amateurs.

I meet up with the cadets and gave the hot coffee. I took a couple of the in
the Landrover with the intention of taking them to the camp site on C.G. to put
up the tents.

On the final road to the camp site the Landie refused to go up a hill, so I
turned around and had another go. This time we got up the hill only to find 
that someone else had trie the same thing and had given up. There was two tyre
tracks that just stopped. I tried to reverse back down but ended up sideways
across the road, stuck. With help from a "passing motorist in a Volvo" I 
managed to get the Landie turned around and down to good road. I asked the 
"passing motorist in a Volvo" how he got up to C.G. in the first place, he 
explained that he got to the top before the snow drifted onto the roads. 

The cadet leaders had decided to abort the camp and so they walked down to the
Landie. I then transported them  to a local Radio Amatuers house in two
journeys. They were then driven back to the ATC HQ by a couple more radio
amateurs who came in from Reading.

So, nearly losing the Landie more than once, getting it stuck once, and 
helping several vehicles to become unstuck, I had a fun day. I always wanted 
to know what it was like to hit a snow drift at 25 MPH

Simon

    
    Over Christmas my brother let me play with his new 'toy' - a short
    wheel base Turbo Diesel Landy, only 2 years old. I was very impressed!
    Once you get used to listening (yes you actually have to listen, as
    oppose to being deafened!) for the power band for gear changing, it
    runs really well. I've not driven a diesel before, and it takes a few
    miles to get the 'feel' of the engine. (It also is great for towing so
    my brother said) 
    
    I'm not used to the quiet, comfort, power steering, radio (which can be
    used :-)  ) comfy seats in the back........... 
    
    Want one - only problem is, the diesels particularly are not cheap -
    about �12000-�12500 for one a couple of years old. 

I've 'recently' had two drives in an interesting Solihull product - a short 
wheelbase soft topped Discovery (under trials with the army - it is only a 
"pre-prototype" that SVO put together for army tirals - there is no evidence 
that it will ever become a product...)

/. Ian .\

    Re .119
    
    I have a 90 Turbo County just coming up two years old.  The first
    owners were Land Rover and we bought it about ten months ago with
    5k on the clock - it now has 18k - and we both enjoy driving it.
    It's in the same registration group as all the press vehicles but
    they all had about 20k on their clocks so I guess it was a perk
    vehile for someone.  It certainly had done very little off road
    work as the chassis/suspension all had the paaint intact!
    
    We have done quite a lot of towing, mainly a 1000kg caravan and
    it is very good for that.  Towing consumption about 21mpg and solo
    about 23mpg.  I tow on motorways at about 65mph and on other roads
    provided you listen to the turbo singing you can move along quite
    briskly.
    
    Its off road performance is brilliant!  It's on the standard Michelin
    X M+S and I have only got stuck once and that was on an AWDC trial!
    (yes, we're that mad)                                       
    
    After 2�L petrol engined ser III Land Rovers this is really motoring.
    As to the cost, we sold our Ser III and my wife's car to buy it
    with a little help from the bank manager, we have no regrets.
    
    We have had a few niggles with it, mainly rainwater leaks, all of
    which I have cured with the exception of the side windows.  There
    seems to be an inherant design fault with the runner drains - when
    there is a moderate wind it blows the rain UP the drain holes and
    runs down inside the vehicle all over the carpet (yes, CARPET!).
    
    The only other problem is suspension bushes. "Enthusiastically"
    drived 90s get through suspension bushes at an alarming rate.  The
    rears are most prone to wear.  It's a couple of hundred quid to
    have them replaced y a L-R dealer.  So far only the front radius
    arms bushes have been done on mine at a cost of about �40.  The
    problem is because the ride and traction is so good, you tend to
    drive faster cross country than you would in a leaf sprung L-R to
    preserve your spine, therefore the suspension has to work a lot
    harder.
    
    Early examples of the 90 can be found for a little as �4500 but
    they're normally pretty tired.  The 2�L petrol is a waste of time,
    the non turbo 2�L diesel for towing is slow (like driving with the
    handbrake on!) and the V8 requires amajor investment at the petrol
    pump.
    
    Go on! Treat yourself!!
    
    Alan                                                              
    

�    X M+S and I have only got stuck once and that was on an AWDC trial!
    
    I was along on the AWDC 'Fun Trial' last Sunday, as a passenger
    in a Jeep (the one I used to own).  That was great fun, but when
    I got home, I sure did regret ever getting rid of the 'Heap'.
    
    Loadsa Rover products there - plenty getting stuck, plenty helping out.
    
    Someone had a County (swb) there with a Warn 'bumperwinch'.
    He spent most of the day pulling other LR/RR vehicles out
    of the goo.  General opinion was that it was an XMAS present.
    (But it certainly 'did the business').  Said driver also had a lot of
    confidence in his vehicle (rightly so) as he had some quite
    extreme 'list' angles when negotiating trial sections, but
    grinned and said 'plenty left in it yet'.
    
    Unfortunately for him, end of the section I was watching involved
    a quite steep, but short, climb which the LR couldn't manage.
    Next vehicle round was a Suzuki (old style), which shot up the
    slope with no problem.  One case where light weight certainly helped.
    
    The title of the days event was right, it was a 'FUN trial'.
    The actual competitive sections were only a part of it, most
    vehicles were there to get the [legal] chance to 'play in the dirt'.
    
    I enjoyed watching a RR 'special' (pickup, lowered roof, raked screen,
    gutted interior) in some of that drivers attempts.  He found that he
    just _could not_ get it through a certain dip (hole) with a 90-degree
    exit slope.  Plenty of credit for trying again and again, being pulled
    back out by an old LR for each attempt.  At least he found a *very*
    steep hill to _fly_ up later in the day, at which a UNIMOG could not
    cope.  The Unimog kept trying again, adding longer and longer run-ups,
    but it never made it to the top.  Mind you, once it had dug four
    holes, each two-foot deep, near the top, it didn't help further efforts.
    
    Biggest disappointment - seeing an Eagle (RR-based kit with fibre Jeep body)
    which was allegedly fitted with a 5.7 litre Chevy engine - but with only
    a few very small splashes of mud on the paintwork (bl**dy poseur).
    
    Best entertainment - watching (and hearing) two Princesses and a
    Reliant Robin throughout the day.  Whenever they got stuck, there
    was always some 4WD or another ready to give them a shove.
    
    
    All in all, a good day out.  Now I really have the urge to go and
    get myself another off-road 'toy'.
    
    J.R.

    We *should* have been at the Fun Day but for my wife's slipped disc!!
    We felt that the last thing she needed was to be bounced around
    Weavers down in the 90!  Some friends went and reported back that
    it was the most chaotic AWDC meeting they have ever been to.
    
    As for setting up an AWDC topic, it's a good idea.  We could post
    future events so non members could come along and see what it's
    all about.  Any support for this?????
    
    See you at my local event (Sidbury Hill) 24th Feb perhaps?  We will
    only be spectating but with the change in the RTV regulations for 1991
    the 90 will be seeing a few more Standard RTVs this year. 

    
    I wonder... I suspect that the 4WD conference might be more appropriate
    (though I admit it is somewhat Americo-centric, it does have a
    worldwide readership.
    
    /. Ian .\
    
    PS: an RTV is a brand of vehicle: diesel engine, 1000kg payload,
    articulated chassis, 31x15.5 "Tredlite" wheels (2 psi operating). In
    effect a smallish pickup truck with the engine under the load bed and a
    hinge between the cargo box section and the cab section. Permanent four
    wheel drive and an automatic 3 speed box with two speed transfer case
    (the top gear is about equivalent to 3-Hi in a Land Rover - top speed
    on highway about 30 mph). It'll go places no self respecting Landy
    would even think of.
    
    I know - I own one. I also saw one on the road in Pangbourne just
    before Christmas with a load of Christmas trees in the back.
    
    You might confuse the uninitiated by using acronyms like this :-)

    Ian,
    
    In some ways I agree but as a regular reader of GENRAL::4WD it is
    *very* American biased.  Any British topic is swamped by people wanting
    grummage flanges for his Jimmy or good places to go off roading in
    Arizona! The AWDC is a British club operating in the UK.  I note within
    this conference topics for other car clubs and would therefore suggest
    that this is the right place unless we set up a UK_4WD conference
    (any takers?) to cover our interests.
    
    By proposing an AWDC topic I was trying to embrace a wider interest
    other than just the Solihull product.  I have noted in this conference
    and others, such as Great Britain, topics on Rights of Way, etc.
    so there is obviously an interest there.
    
    As for the RTV - sorry to the unitiated - Road Taxed Trial.  This
    is a trial for vehicles that are road legal, not specials, and have
    limited modifications.  The vehicle that Ian describes is know to
    me and I have seen the Army playing with these at Long Valley a
    few years ago with other assorted off road oddities.
    
    The question still stands, does anybody want an AWDC topic or, a
    UK_4WD conference?  If you don't want to clog up this note with
    replies, mail me direct.
    
    Alan

    
    I'd say go for it - maybe if the topic raises interest we might try for
    the conference ...
    
    /. Ian .\

    I have started an AWDC topic (1337) for those who may be interested.
    
    Alan

		For Sale
		--------


	Series IIa swb land rover

	diesel hard top 7 seater

	5 new radial tyres

	Fairey o/d

	Capstan winch

	light and ventilator guards

	new near side swivel housing and bearing

	new mid and rear chassis members

	s/s exhaust system

	can be seen near Cambridge


	contact Stephen Kell at teac::kell

	or David Sewart on 0954 719 359

	

    I have just been borrowing a friends County 110 Station Wagon for a few
    days to see if we are "compatible" with it. 
    
    Reasons for the trial are:
    
    We want something that will tow our large (6 berth, we have 4 kids)
    'van without doubling the national debt at the petrol pumps.
    
    I was kind of keen to own something that will last 20 years without
    falling apart..... this would be a leasemobile that would be purchased
    at the end of the lease period. I get fed up with the amount of money
    transport costs out of our budget.
    
    I always fancied one.
    
    Impressions for:
    
    Built like a brick out-house. Mechanical engineering has got **STYLE**
    and looks like it was designed by people who care about such things. 
    
    Carry any thing.
    
    Tow anything. You could probably fill our van withReady-Mix and the
    vehicle (you can't use the word "car", can you?) would probably pull it
    up Ben Nevis without a whimper.
    
    **NOBODY** challenges you except other LR's and trucks >7.5T GVW
    
    Great view over the hedges!
    
    Impressions against:
    
    Ponderous.
    
    Wallows a bit on corners.
    
    Thirsty...... 22mpg around town, 26-ish cruising (!) at 55, drops to
    about 21-22 if you crank the speed up beyond about 65.
    
    Shake, rattle and I already said roll.
    
    Noisy, but not as noisy as I expected (it's the Turbo-D)
    
    The bodywork was designed on the back of a fag packet and is fudge
    around poor design in most places.
    
    The LR is only 6 months old and already the steel bits on the outside
    (steps, hinges etc.) are showing rust.
    
    I'd hate to work on the underneath mechanicals without a pit in a
    garage and I can see how it could be awkward under the bonnet with
    those enormous wings to reach over. (Could you take the bonnet off and
    sit on the wings?).
    
    Seating, whilst adequate, isn't good enough for a family to suffer for
    long (like holiday) journeys without extreme bum pain. The rear
    sideways facing seats are an absolute farce...... no squab padding
    (which isn't even fixed in place) and I dread to think what kind of seat
    belts would be fitted for them. Anybody know of a practical way of
    getting another row of forward facing seats installed?
    
    Steering seems to have a definite trend towards straight ahead and
    takes a lot of effort to get the wheels to turn, but once they are
    moving then they seem to require less effort and you're in danger of
    putting too much lock on. (The one I am driving has PS).
    
    The turning circle is a teensy weensy bit large too.
    
    Driving position is a bit cramped on the right hand side. I always feel
    that my elbow is being stuffed into my ribcage which makes for an
    awkward position for turning the wheel 'round.
    
    So, what's the verdict?
    
    Hmmm, two minds really. I could live with it, but I think that Lynne
    wouldn't be particularly happy using it as the family taxi all week
    (her comments have been restrained to say the least: reading between
    the lines she thinks it too noisy, too uncomfortable, crude,
    unsophisticated, slow but a very practical towing vehicle).
    
    There seems to be no point in having it and me driving it all the time
    as that will just drive the cost of motoring up to an unacceptable
    level (not yer average commuting vehicle is it?). I can't somehow
    justify buying one S/H just for the dozen or so trips we take each year
    in the 'van and have it sitting around doing nothing the rest of the
    time.
    
    I have a feeling that I/we have decided that it's an impractical dream.
    
    Anybody want to try to change my mind?

    >> (her comments have been restrained to say the least: reading between
    >> the lines she thinks it too noisy, too uncomfortable, crude,
    >> unsophisticated, slow but a very practical towing vehicle).
    
    The most sensible comment on Land Rover's I've read in here! :^)
    
    Mark

    Would a Range Rover not be better ... ? More comfort and as much power
    I would have thought .... 
    
    Woof
    Jane

�    justify buying one S/H just for the dozen or so trips we take each year
�    in the 'van and have it sitting around doing nothing the rest of the
�    time.
    
    What about 'green-laning' ?
    
    Still hard to justify its purchase, but it can be a 'fun' vehicle
    as well as a practical one.
    
    J.R.

    
    Have you discounted the Discovery? If so, why?
    
    Mark

Actually a Landrover is reputed to be the worst vehicle to tow a caravan.

The suspension on the 'drover is somewhat hard, so every time you hit a bump in
the road, the shock is transmitted through the chassis, down the tow ball into
the caravan. There have been several reports of caravans 'falling to bits'. I
assume this is because the caravan is of a flimsy construction compared to the
Landrover, or even most vehicles.

To make matters worse, insurance companies are refusing to pay up on damaged
caravans because - they weren't designed to be towed by that type of vehicle.

Now this may all be speculation on someones part, not mine I am only passing
on information, but it might be a good idea to find out how true this may or
may not be.

Simon

    And then there are Isuzu Troopers, Toyota Land Cruisers, Mitsubishi
    Shoguns, although I don't know how they go on longevity.
    
    Steve

    Well, I certainly sparked off some thoughts.... thanks!
    
    Re .131	I thought about a RR, and then stopped very quickly when
    the price topped �35K. That's more than I have spent on cars that I've
    owned in my entire life! It also has another more serious drawback in
    that it is not possible in any way shape or form to get 6 persons
    seated and belted up in it. I'm afraid that kinda kills it.
    
    Re .132	I thought about buying one as a fun car, but I already have
    three hobbies (keeping a Mk I Granada on the road, building steam
    engines and wood turning) which consume enough disposable income and
    time for me not to really want to get involved in another hobby just to
    be able to justify a LR for it's van towing ability. 
    
    Re .133	The Discovery is my favourite option, even though the seats
    number 6 and 7 are a bit on the pathetic side and occupy what should
    really be luggage space. The thing that really kills it is the price:
    with 5 door Disco's on the scheme at �3800+/pa they are just not on. I
    wish, I wish....... the attraction of the LR is that it comes within a
    smidgeon of my market supplement.
    
    Re .134	Yeah, I read all the brouha-ha in the press about not
    beinga suitable towing vehicle. Seems that there was a fair amount of
    discussion in the Caravan Club etc house mags about it and it appears
    that there's not too much truth in the matter. I agree that the ride
    did appera to be a bit hard and the there could be a measure of shock
    transmission through the hitch to the 'van: I am more worried about
    being caught in the wash of a big truck as a source of damage that
    transmitted shock. I accept that there might be a risk in the theory
    proposed, but I don't think that that would turn me off towing with
    one. 

    Re .135
    
    Unfortunately, Steve they are all in the wrong price range........
    
    I am also unconvinced that the japanese could build a vehicle that
    WOULD last 20 years. LR do.... I see 'em all the time.

How about a Defender TDi - 27 mpg (for the 110) or 29 mpg (for the 90), plus
all the advantages of the turbo diesel...

/. Ian .\

    Can you unconfuse me, Ian? What's the difference between the Defender
    and the County 110. Or is the Defender the new name for the County
    Wagon. I got a brochure etc. from Wheelers in Blazingsmoke a week or so
    ago and it seems to my untrained eye that the Defender was a stripped version of the County
    and at not too much less a price. It was inferred that it was also only
    available to special factory order and I'm not too sure how PHH/Hertz
    would cope with that.
    
    Where do you get the consumption figures from? I have been tracking my
    rate of use of fuel and seem to be getting 23mpg over 150miles. That
    was mainly Reading-Newbury-little bit of running
    around-Reading-Basingstoke-Newbury-Reading with one of the
    Reading-Newbury legs via the M4 and at a steady 60 on the M4.

	"Defender" is the new name for the original Landrover.
	What was the Landrover is now the Landrover Defender,
	the Range Rover is now the Landrover Range Rover, and
	the Discovery is the Land Rover Discovery... presumably
	you can still get upmarket Landrovers, probably called
	Landrover Defender Countys...

	Jonathan.

Land Rover decided every LR needed a name, so the old 90 and 110 became the
Defender 90 and 110, and were joined by the Defender 130.

You can still get a Defender County 110, but not a County 90...

Simultaneous with the new name they made the 200 TDi engine available for the 
range. (�14970 for the Defender 90 station wagon, and �17007 for the Defender 
110 County wagon)

/. Ian .\

    Re -1.
    
    I was confused before.
    
    I'm still confused.
    
    I'm sure it makes sense.......

    carrying on... so what is it that I am driving? H reg and got the turbo
    deisel motor (I can hear it whining) and got County stripes down the
    side. 
    
    Is it a Defender?
    
    Is it a County?
    
    Whatever it is it don't give high 20's consumption......

If it doesn't have a "Defender" logo on the front then its either a '90' or 
a '110'. Turbo implies the Italian 2.5 litre turbo diesel (as opposed to the
Land Rover designed, and more efficient, TDi).

In reality there is very little difference (a little change to the trim is all),
but the new engine is substantially more efficient...

/. Ian .\ 

	Was the LR turbo diesel better then? Why on earth did they
	drop it in favour of a foreign made one?

	Jonathan.

The Turbo Diesel 2.5 used by LR for many years is Italian. The new TDi is the
first LR design used.

Similarly the 3.5 V8 petrol is a Buick (American) design.

Conventional wisdom amongst LR fans is that the conventionally aspirated
diesel was a better bet than the turbo (which had reliability problems).

/. Ian .\

You can buy a Discovery in Oman for LOTS of dosh less than in the UK. My YL's 
old man is working out there and nearly fainted when he enquired about UK 
prices. I'm not suggesting a trip to Oman (although there are a few 
*interesting* countries to drive through on the way back), but it might be 
worth looking into the possibility of a personal import from Europe.

Yet again the UK buyer gets ripped off.

Dave

    How can I confirm that I have the Italian (Thirsty) motor?

    Re .147
    
    A long overland trek sounds like a good way to spend a month......
    unfortunately I can't specify point of source to PHH/Hertz, and even if
    they did get a good price from an off-shore source I doubt that I'd get
    the benefit of the savings.......

    Well,
    	Now the Snail is gone, I am looking to my next vehicle.
    It has to be something interesting.
    What I have in mind is something big enough to carry 5 kids and a
    dog.
    Something that is easy to hose down after the dog has been in it.
    4 Wheel Drive.
    Towing capability would be nice.
    Something handy for camping etc
    Plenty of room for skis etc.
    And not too expensive...
    (Oh, and something that Linda can pass her test in).
    
    I think I probably want a Landrover.
    
    I have driven such things, a long time ago, and I enjoyed it a lot.
    Not being a member of vehicle troop, I never got to know much about
    them, but the one that sticks in my mind the most is the 'Pink
    Panther'.
    
    It has always been in the back of my mind to get one and restore it,
    but I don't think I would have time to do it justice, so something
    similar would suffice.
    
    I would welcome being corrected, because I am not 100% sure, but these
    things were LWB (109 or 110 ?), 3.5V8 supercharged (Fairey ?) No
    upper bodywork to speak of, ie no doors, just a canvas tilt for
    inclement conditions.
    
    A really 'outdoorsey' sort of motor.
    
    Anybody ever seen an ex-mod Pink Panther ?
    Is the Soft-top option common on the LWB ? Most I see seem to have Cabs
    (or are the Cabs removeable ?).
    
    In the mood for a complete change of scene...
    
    Am�d�n
    

�    them, but the one that sticks in my mind the most is the 'Pink
�    Panther'.
    
    Weren't these the ones used by the SAS in 'desert' duties.
    
    I recall seeing an article in a four-wheel-drive mag a couple of
    years ago that had one, or maybe two, of these featured.
    
    I think they are exceptionally rare - but I could easily be wrong.
    
�    In the mood for a complete change of scene...
    
    You don't have to go for a 'complete' change, why not get a
    Shogun and have it worked on by BBR again ?  They get 230 bhp
    out of them.  I suppose that figure is also reached by using
    a V8, but I bet that would be more thirsty (but worth it?).
    
    J.R.

re.150
>>    What I have in mind is something big enough to carry 5 kids and a
>>    dog.


how did you get 5 kids & the dog into the Sierra?

...curious

	Having an "R" reg landrover I would advise that it's not the type of
	vehicle to take your test in.

	The visability is not too great, in fact, it's appalling, and for 
	short-haul-around-town, you can get wonderful muscles built up in your 
	legs because of the weight required on the pedals.

	I love the landy, but I woudn't wish it on a learner.

	Heather

    Heather,
    	Interesting about the visibility - it is the reversing round
    corners bit that is Linda's Bane... I just had it in my mind that
    without any obstructing bodywork, and sitting a bit higher might have
    helped.
    	I don't think she would have too much trouble with the pedals, she
    soon got used to the clutch in the Snail (hard, these Yorkshire
    lasses...)
    Re the other two Q's,
    Yes.
    The Pink Panther got its name from the Pink desert camouflage used.
    No.
    Wouldn't let the dog near the Snail, but Me, Linda, and 5 boys were a
    bit of a squeeze - but then we couldn't get all of the kids on to our
    bikes :-)
    
    Am�d�n
    

    PS
    Forgot to mention, I don't want to spend too much, the Snail broke the
    bank...
    Maybe about �2k5, but I am in no hurry to rush out and buy something
    straight away, although a 'project' for my stepson (who wants to be a
    motor mechanic) might be an idea.
    
    Am�d�n
    

    I don't know, have a week off and the L-R note goes mad.
    
    Re .134 - I have towed with a L-R for more years than I care to remember
    without incident.  If you are towing a heavy 'van then you achieve a
    very good weight ratio for vehicle to trailer.  With an 85%
    (recommended) weight a 25cwt caravan is a doddle.
    
    I agree that the older leaf sprung L-Rs were a *bit* firm on their
    spring but caravans falling apart.... I find that hard to believe.  My
    five year old Abbey has always been towed on a L-R and nothing's dropped
    off (yet).  Up to a year ago I towed on a Series III with one ton
    springs on the back!!  I now tow on a 90 Turbo diesel.  The only towing
    aid I use is the SSK coupling but I may change the 'van next year then
    I shall fit the Alko version (easier to use).
    
    The point that the Caravan Club made about towing with Land Rover type
    vehicle is to interpret the towing capacity with care.  On an overrun
    brake Solihull claim a 2 ton limit.  That's fine for a cargo trialer
    but a caravan acts like a sail on the rear and inexperience drivers have
    put huge vans on the back and got into trouble.  I regularly tow about
    2 tonnes with mine (a Rice 4 wheel cargo trailer) without incident, but
    a horse box with two occupants requires a little more care and
    concentration especially as the load has a habit of moving around!
    
    I have not heard about insurance companies not honouring claims.  I
    would be interested in specific companies as would my insurance agents. 
    Cornhill don't see it as a problem.
    
    It depends what you want the vehicle for - if you just want a *big* tow
    car that will never venture off the beaten track and can carry hoards
    of sprogs the what about a Volvo 760 estate? (Ducks to avoid rotten
    eggs!)  ;-)
    
    As for .144 - Ian, are you sure not not getting confused with the
    2.4ltr VM unit in the Range Rover?  My 2.5ltr Turbo D has a bored out.
    turbo charged version of the good old Solihull 2�ltr smoker.  To my
    knowledge the factory have never fitted an Italian engine to a L-R for
    the home market. 
    
    The new direct injection engine pinched from the Discovery (goes weak
    at knees at mention of that fine product) is basically a rework of the
    indirect injection version.
    
    Meanwhile, I'll stay loyal to the Best 4x4xfar!
    

    
    My Dad bought his first Landy to tow a caravan, when the combination of
    5 kids + gear became too much for an estate car.  We were just not
    allowed to complain about the lack of comfort in the back! He still has
    the same caravan, and altough there is now only one child, he has gone
    back to towing with a Turbo D, after about 5 years of using a (big) car - he
    just prefers Land Rovers! 
    
    My Dad told me about an incident where a caravan manufacturer
    specifically stated that the 'van should not be towed by a Land Rover
    type vehicle, - not sure which make though.
    
    Although the combination of our trailer and the 23 is within the towing
    capacity of most 2l engined cars, I would choose a Landy every time! -
    new ones are even comfortable - _and_ you can hear the radio! Anyone
    got a Turbo Diesel they would swap with my V8? :-)

    Re .156
    
    Unfortunately, whilst LR + 'van = Bliss, LR + wife = misery. Or at
    least that's what it boiled down to in the end. In addition to the fact
    that it was quite a difficult vehicle for her to drive the seats behind
    the second row are pathetic and I wouldn't even consider putting any of
    my kids in them. BUT it is a superb tow car....... even if you can't
    hear the radio! It was also, from the experience of driving one for
    almost a week a bit thirsty to use a s either a commuter or business
    vehicle, and I can't afford the luxury of a specialist vehicle for just
    the dozen or so times a year we take the 'van out. But what a tow
    vehicle. I reckon that you could fill my Piper with Readymix and the Lr
    wouldn't even notice it......
    
    There's a significant negative to the Volvo..... why suffer the
    consumption of a TOWING Land Rover **ALL** the time and I don't care
    what anybody (including Volvo) says about their "third" row of seats
    there is no way anybody could accept them as either comfortable,
    practical or sufficient for any person with a weight greater than about
    40Kg and legs longer than 3". The Volvo has been ruled out of my
    considerations for longer than I care to think. It just does not cut
    the mustard.
    
    Now the Discovery was what I really wanted to live with and both I and
    my wife have driven one and there is no practical reason why not.
    Except money. It's just **TOO** expensive on the lease scheme. Even
    then, by the time you've put the two smallest kids of four into the less
    than satisfactory "extra" seats (but better than the Volvo!) you've
    lost out on the luggage space for when you aren't towing the suitcase
    on wheels.......but I would have put up with that as it would have been
    affordable as the family vehicle from a running cost perspective.
    
    Another alternative considered was the Shogun (which I did with much
    reluctance) and in fact it has the best seating (six seats all with
    lap/diag belts facing forward) **AND** some luggage space, but again we
    come up against the old bugbear..... too expensive.
    
    I guess I will have to keep on looking for the Holy Grail or wait 'till
    at least one of the offspring flees the nest.

    There is a LR leased from Hertz which loses its owner soon (leaving
    Digital). It's a County 110. If anybody wants more details, mail me.

    Yesterday while out on a Sunday drive I came across what I reckon must
    be a fairly early Land Rover. It was shorter tham usual, had a very low
    bonnet, grille-mounted lights, and a hard-top. It did have a Land Rover
    badge but someone had stuck a Foden one on the rear door.
    Everything seemed to be in place bar the engine. Would this have been a
    1595cc unit (petrol?).
    
    It also had an unusual reg plate (for Ireland). The letters were DW. 
    
    Is this Landy worth anything?
    
    Billy
    
    

From memory (I know some of these details will be inncorrect), but I did own 2
of the things in the past....

The Series 1 Landy had 2 incarnations - 

1947-1951 which was very short Wheelbase (80" a la Willys Jeep), slab sided 
with the doors and rear panels not having any rounding on them and also a 
smaller engine. Semi-floating rear hubs. Lights in radiator front panel.
Gearbox without synchro on 1st and 2nd gear. Strange "freewheel" arrangement 
on front prop shaft.

1952 (or was it 53) to 1957, 86" (and 107") wheelbase 2.25 lit engine, more 
modern brakes but still the "slab-sided" look - in fact looked more ungainly 
then the earlier model. Same light position. Same gearbox. No freewheel.

Series II Landy 1958-1965

"Normal" Landy shape. 88" (and 109") wheelbase. Fully-floating rear hubs.
2.25 Lit 4 and 3 litre 6 cylinder engine. Same light postion. Synchro on 2nd
gear. New Transfer box.

Series IIA 1965-1973 

Decent rear diff. Lights outboard in the mudguards. All synchro gearbox.

Series III 1973-
This is where I stopped owning the things so I don't know whats happened since.

    Another point worth looking for is if the front bumper is a bolt on or
    if it is welded to the chassis frame.  The preproduction units of the
    80" had a welded bumper and are vary rare - from memory only 40 were
    built.
    
    Any Series One is of interest, but then any Land Rover is... but I'm
    bias!
    
    Alan

    
    My Landy is now back on the road! - (just)....  We needed it to tow the 
    23 to Snetterton yesterday, which involved hard work all weekend to
    make it legal (ie full complement of lights/horn etc). I still have no 
    instruments, such as fuel gauge, temp, etc. the speedo _did_ work, as
    far as Slough.....  It still needs quite a lot of work to finish, (if
    this sort of project is ever really finished :-) ) and to reduce the
    noise level so we can communicate without shouting!
    
    The 'urgent' fixes are the idle screws on the carbs, which keep working
    loose, a new oil leak (it's come out in sympathy with the 23, only I
    think mine is from the fuel pump gasket) and to seal the 'alternative'
    filler cap on top of the petrol tank. If I overfill at the moment, the
    petrol sloshes out, and it's too expensive to waste!
    
    I've also decided on the new colour, and one panel (which had to be
    welded) has now been brush painted - I've very pleased with the quality 
    of the finish, I was a bit worried about how it would turn out, but I'm
    using a 'coachpaint' which is designed to be brushed on, it is
    expensive (paint and etching primer cost over �30 - which should
    be enough for the whole vehicle) but I think it will be worth it, to
    return the Landy to 'Land Rover Green' rather than the rather 'bright'
    colour it is now!

    
    Elaine,
    
    Excuse my ignorance, but is Land Rover Green the dark olive sort of 
    colour?
    
    Mark

    The correct name is Bronze green.  Later models (90 + 110) had an
    assortment of greens including Eastnor Green.
    
    All military Land Rovers are bronze green under their military drab.
    
    You can buy it in an aerosol from your LR dealer but I don't know how
    good a finish you get.
    
    Alan_now_with_his_first_non_green_LR_that_is_Aries_Blue!

�    Alan_now_with_his_first_non_green_LR_that_is_Aries_Blue!
    						 ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Is that so you can go RAMMING things ?
    
    J.R.

    
    Yes, the colour I'm using is 'bronze green', it's original colour. I'll 
    work through the panels as I get time! I'm going to leave the roof, and
    back window panels white, though. When it's finished it should look
    quite smart - since I've still got the white 5-spoke wheels off my old
    Landy. 
    
    Elaine
    
    

    Well, I have been away from this conference for a while (another SD&E
    panic bites the dust...)
    I am getting a little closer to getting a landrover, but it won't be a
    Pink Panther :-(
    I finally tracked some down, and went down to Wiltshire for a look see.
    There is a company called The Wiltshire Landrover Company in Melksham
    that I heard had some, and I had an interesting chat with the
    proprietor (forgotten his name). Apparently of the 80 originally built,
    only 30 are left, and of these the whereabouts of all are known and are
    keenly fought over by those who are interested in restoring them. The
    two in Melksham actually belong to a customer who has another two at
    home which are fully restored. He is keeping them there while he saves
    up for the restoration/searches for parts/until his wife finds out
    (apparently she thought two Pink Panthers was one too many).
    It seems that searching for the bits and pieces to put them back
    together (they were in a very sorry state) is almost a full time job,
    and is also very expensive if people realise what you are up to.
    Apparently fully restored Panthers are worth Mega-bucks these days.
    Despite their poor condition, niether of the ones I saw had more than
    20k on the clock, and apparently the engines were not too bad.
    So, a rather nostalgic moment, but no hope that I would have the time
    or money to get involved.
    Just counting the days before I can pop over and pick up a '1 careful
    owner' LHD 109...
    Rob
    PS thanks for the tip about Land Rover Owner - I had never noticed it
    before, but have a subscription now :-)
                        
    

    I met someone today who owns a "Pink Panther"!
    
    If you are interested, reply and I might be able to put you in touch.
    She was a customer at a site in Hereford. I don't think, from what she
    said, that she would want to sell hers, but she might be able to point
    someone in the right direction on the subject.
    
    Regards,
    
    Meic (Just bought a series IIA Safari) Paddick.
    

    
    Anybody got (or know the whereabouts of) a second hand overdrive unit
    for sale, suitable for a Series IIA 2� petrol.
    
           I can't afford a new one, but S/H might be possible.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Meic.P.

    
    Re - my reply in the other note you posted your request in....
    
    I spoke to my brother, who says that you will be _very_ luck to find 
    one secondhand. Your best bet is to look for someone who is breaking
    up a Landy, and doesn't know what they've got! BUT - make sure you 
    get all the bits, especially the intermediate gear, else you will end
    up spending a lot just to get this part, which will take the cost up to
    nearly what it would have cost to buy new (and therefor one which you
    know will work OK!)
    
    Prices for second hand (in the Midlands) would be over �200. 
    
    Where are you based? - If it's Reading area, you could talk to Safari
    Engineering in Eversley, but watch them! -  their prices are high, and
    they run a good line in "we're the experts, and you don't know what you
    are talking about"! 
    
    Elaine

    Ah!  The famous Mr Miles.  He tried to tell a friend of mine that his
    late Seried 3 SWB was two welded together!  He found a `weld' in the
    chassis and claimed that it had a 109" front axle.
    
    The `weld' was a paint run and late (1983) Series 3 SWB DID have the
    LWB axle and larger brakes!  I showed him the L-R workshop manual
    supplement that detailed the changes but he maintained he was right and
    Solihull were wrong!!!
    
    That was the last conversation I had with him.  I wonder why?
    
    Alan

Don't talk to me about that [censored].


Simon

    Elaine,
    
    Re the re in the other re.
    
    Thanks for the info.
    
    Meic.

I met a young lad over the weekend who had recently bought a lightweight landy.
Ex MOD FFR (Fitted For Radio). It is 17 yrs old and in great condition. It even
had the 'manual' with it.

The last chapter of this manual is titled something like; "How to  destroy your
Landrover in the face of the enemy"


Apart from the blunt instrument approach to the dials etc it recomends shooting the 
fuels tank etc. The final recomendation is to shoot the vehicle with some sort
of anti-tank weapon. It suggest at leats two shots as one isn't usually enough to
destroy the vehicle.

I knew there was a reason for buying one.

Simon

Re .175,

You might have some difficulty with your insurance company when
claiming for the value of a Landy which you'd blown up with a bazooka. 
Saying that you where just following the instructions in the manual
probably won't cut very much ice...

Jon

Re: .176

but vehicle insurance is automatically void in times of war....

    I'll pass this onto the All Wheel Drive Club as most of our members
    seem hell bent on destroying their Land Rovers.  We normally try more
    conventional methods like burying them in mud, dropping them down huge
    holes or just driving them like loonies across harsh terrain.
    
    Your solution sounds very effective but is it as much fun?

... and is it part of the MT driving test

;-)

    Who are all you lot insured with?  We've just bought an ex Mod Series IIA
    2.25 petrol and I was pretty choked at the quotes I received.  
    
    I'm 20 years old (my Landy is 4 years my senior) with zilch no claims
    bonus (just starting my insurance) and all my quotes have been 700
    pounds upwards.  The excuse is "you young'ens pile your mates up in the
    back and then drive over cliffs!"
    
    Any advice welcomed
    
    Clare - a little  8^(  but I love my Landy  8^)
    
     

�                       -< Who's the cheapest insurance? >-
    
    Dunno the answer to that one.  I guess it must be a bummer to
    start out on the insurance ladder - long time since I was there !
    
    Whatever, I would recommend that you join either the Land Rover
    Owners Club, or the All-Wheel-Drive Club to have more fun with
    your vehicle.  Quite possible that the LRO get insurance discount,
    but I don't recall seeing anything of that line via the AWDC (other
    than 'special' membership of the RAC).
    
    J.R.

    
    Dunno about that but �700 might not be too bad for fully comp?
    
    How much mileage do you do a year (guess! :^)). A car 24 years old
    would be eligible for classic car insurance. Try Adrian S. Flux (phone
    number buried in here somewhere) or Bain Clarkson (likewise - do a
    DIR/TITLE=INSUR).
    
    John's comment on owners' clubs is a good starter too.
    
    Mark

    You think �700-00 is bad news. I've just be collared for �1740-00 for
    fully comp on my Calibra 16v. And that's with 3 years no-claims. I
    guess they just hate me.
    
    Clive

They hate everybody these days,  guess they can't get used to not
making excessive profits any more!

I still think we need a policy that is inbetween TPF&T and COMP, you can
claim for fire, theft and third party + write off damage.  None of these
silly 250 'fender bender' claims,  oh and you also agree to have your
hands cut off if caught in an insurance fraud ;-)

An alternative solution IMHO.

_Richard

    Hi! its Clare again.  My 700 pound + quotes are TPF&T.  I've tried Bain 
    Clarkson but they were......1100 ish pounds!!! I'll try the other one
    though.  We did have a Suzuki LJ80 a few years back and it was sooo
    cheap (sorry to mention it)!
    
    By the way, do any of you 'drover owners live in East Surrey - like me
    'cos there is this new club "Surrey Landrover Club" just been
    established and I think we're the tenth member!!  I do intend joining
    the "BIG" ones aswell!
    
    ta!
    
    Clare 8^)

    um  while I've got my Landrover hat on  may one ask a further question?
    How much should I expect to pay for a canvas roof (SWB) and for the
    frame?
    
    Clare 8*)
    

Have you tried Snowball insurance Brokers on:   Burton-on-Trent
						Staffs
						(0283) 31391


They are 4WD specialists. Let me know how you get on.

    Just to let you now how I got on with your recommendations............
    
    here we go.........
    
    Endsleigh.............. 469 (special rates 4 students)
    Snowballs.............. 508 +100 F&T excess
    A.S.Flux............... 613       "
    
    - not eligible 4 classic car insurance 'cos I'm under 25
    
    It's lowering!!!
    
    Clare 8^)
    

    Land Rover are to increase production of several of their models.
    In the present climate this has amazed analysts. More workers, longer
    shifts.
    
    Andrew

�                    -< You can't keep a good product down. >-
    
    I would re-phrase that as "You can't keep a good image down", but
    then that's my opinion.  I do think that the L.R. products are
    *very* good - with regard off-road ability - but that they are
    very rarely purchased for any need of their abilities.
    
    Whatever, it's good news for Land Rover...
    
    J.R.

    
    Re .190
    
    Which LRs are being increased in production? Whilst the Disco and Range
    Rover are snapped up by the yuppy market (Is there one anymore?), the
    Defenders are surely bought ONLY for their abilities on the rough, such
    is the level of (dis)comfort.
    
    Mark

    The report specifically mentioned demand for the Discovery, in the UK,
    Italy and another European country (Portugal?)
    
    JK

    The Disco is not just a yuppy machine.  It is going to be put into the 
    Military market. It out performs the RangeRovers by a wide margin. The
    Disco has sold so well that production is going to be increased.
    
    Simon

    A little more from The Times.
    
    Production of Discovery is to rise 10% to 550 per week.
    Production of Range Rover is to rise from 350 to 370 per week.
    Discovery may rise to 600 per week by the end of the year.
    UK orders are slightly better than 1991.
    Defender was launched in the US earlier this year.
    
    Andrew

    I could be wrong, but if the Range-Rover et al had never become
    so-called 'yuppy machines', then surely the Discovery would never have
    been brought to market.
    
    I suggest that without the 'yuppies' the true blue Landrover enthusiast
    would not now be able to get his wheels dirty... unless it was in a
    K-reg (the 1st time around that is) !
    
    Reargards,
    
    Stephen 'D-reg Peugeot' Beaton

Don't understand...

�I suggest that without the 'yuppies' the true blue Landrover enthusiast
�would not now be able to get his wheels dirty...

Landrovers have been getting their wheels (and axles, sills, doors and roofs)
dirty far longer than Rangerovers have been around. The Disco' was introduced
to compete against the Jap market, not against the Rangerover and is a midway 
point between Landrover and Rangerover.

Simon

    I think the point being made was - if Landrover had not found a market
    for high value Rangerovers and mid value Discoveries the company would
    have ceased to exist years ago. Whether this an accurate assessment I
    wouldn't like to say.
    
    Andrew

    Complete and Utter Drivel....
    
    Sorry to be so harsh but Land Rovers will sell whether or not there is
    a "Yuppie" version (Range/Discovery) or not...
    
    My girlfriends father is a farmer, and when looking for a 4WD workhorse
    is not interested in Mitsuhondasukiyakki's...they may _on paper_
    outperform Land Rovers, but when it comes down to real day-in-day-out
    farm work thay cannot hold a candle to LR's... I know this for a
    fact..I have been with him at a show (South of England) when he has
    used his county to pull a shogun out of a severe mud hole....
    
    He does not want "leather seats, a mega stereo, tinted glass etc
    etc..."..although these are very nice...
    
    Give me a Land Rover any day....
    
    Paul

    Whether Landrovers sell or not was not the issue. MGB's would probably
    still sell (some would argue they still do (-:).
    
    If the company had gone bust, there wouldn't have been anything to
    sell. Range Rovers provided/provide a very nice steady revenue stream,
    thank you.
    
    JK

    
    Judging by the number of aged Land Rovers you see about, it may be that
    Land Rovers would have put their maker out of business without the
    yuppie market for Range Rovers and (more importantly, given the high cost 
    of Range Rovers!) Discoverys.
    
    Mark

    re. a few back
    According to the last company blurb I read, the army was going to take
    on the discoverys as they were previously using one landrover and one
    Range Rover per certain ranks of officers (one for exercises and one
    for staff cars). They feel the Discovery is a good compromise.
    
    
    Jason.

    Re a few back:
    
    It is true that Land-Rover have always been profitable but it was alway
    starved of investment when the Rover Car Company was `acquired' by
    British Leyland.  Onlr recently have they been able to spend money on
    R&D hence the Discovery and the new Range Rover due for launch in a
    year or so.  Incidentally, there is a new LWB 106" Range Rover with air
    suspension which will also be available on the 100".
    
    Having said that the Land-Rover (I can't bring myself to call it a
    Defender) has always been acknowledged as the world's workhorse.
    
    Most 4x4 never see mud and lots of Land-Rovers never realise anything
    like their real potential.  Most people buy them because they love them
    (it's the same with Beetles) not for what they can do.  And why not? 
    They're fun, addictive, well engineered, reliable and, yes, they do
    have their faults but then most other vehicles have *some*
    shortcomings.
    
    

    and drafty, rattly, idiosyncratic, underpowered, uncomfortable...
    
    and strangely endearing. My old landie went pretty well with an alloy
    v8 (4.4 lit, 200 hp).

    
    
    Well, i may as well enter a little notey to bring some gumption back
    into this Landrover topic.  Yep, i'm the one with the '68 2.25 24v army
    LR and apparently i've heard (I mean i just literally drive it
    - my sister has the weekend to fiddle around) that it needs new leaf 
    springs and a complete rewire.  As i've got to pay half the expense, 
    how much ish do you reckon it'll be?  (parts only)
      
                                                      
    Clare. 

        I had to have a set of leaf springs replaced.
        
        It cost:
        
        Leaf Spring   �72.40
        Labour 	      �30.00
        --------------------
        Sub total    �120.40
        VAT @ 17.5%   �17.92
        --------------------
        Grand Total  �120.32
        
        This was from Wigmore Autos on 0734-583293. It was an insurance 
        job so really didn't cost me anything ;-)
        
        I would recommend you talk to David Findley of GDF Landrovers on 
        0734 745010 or 0491 681829 and tell him I sent you.
        
        Simon

    
    I've got an old ex-mod lightweight which I had to re-wire. A new wiring
    harness was expensive - (well over �100 I think) so I did it 'from scratch'
    with reels of wire and little numbered tags to keep track of which wire
    was which, and heat-shrink tubing to hold the harness together. 
    It took quite a long time to do, and required the help of someone who knew
    more about car electrical circuits than I did!  

    This months CAR (January 93) has a story on the DEFENDER (ie traditional
    LANDROVER) replacement, scheduled for 1995-> depending on the state of
    Rover's finances/ownership.  I looks very much like an updated current
    model ie slab-sided with rubber arches, it will use a DISCOVERY chassis
    and will be cheaper to make and can include such modern features (!) as
    collapsible steering column, load levelling etc. However if the money
    runs out they will just try to update the current model again.  The
    code name I think is CRUSADER (or some such).
    
    The PATHFINDER model which was to be produced jointly between the
    LANDROVER and ROVER divisions has been canned.  It was to have been a
    trendy 4wd estate (like a 90's Matra Simca Rancho). Reason is again
    management caution due to the uncertainty of finance/ownership.
    
    Stevie.

    Previous reply from memory, I see that the new model is akcherally
    called CHALLENGER  (I new it was some sort of military name !)
    
    	Stevie.

    I see from today's Telegraph that the American Army is buying 48 of the
    Special Operations Vehicles Land Rover Defenders.  Based on the 110
    chassis and the Tdi engine.  They are fitted with a 7.62mm machine gun,
    grenade launcher, 30mm cannon and 81mm mortar.  This is a similar spec
    to the SAS's "pink panthers".
    
    They beat off the Hummers that were deemed too big to be air-portable
    and suitable for front line or behind enemy lines operations.
    
    Coals to Newcastle?
    
    Alan

    
    
    HNY to everyone.  Right, we are having some problems with our flasher
    unit (as in indicators and not the raincoated little man in the back). 
    Could someone tell me which way the flasher unit is wired up so my
    mechanical mate can have another try.  On previous occasions it has
    blown and we are using a 24v bulb in the 24v car.  At the moment the
    left indicator works when it feels like it (not flashing)and the right 
    one goes on (not flashing of course!! - really good!!
    
    
    p.s. i'm no teccie-words than speech are easier for me to understand!
    
    Clare.   8*)
    
     
    
    

    The  basic method (and the land rover IS pretty basic) is to have a
    little bimetallic switch around which is wired a heater wire, and this
    is in series with the lights(which are in parrallel)
    
    The default is circuit made, and when you switch on the current from
    the lights warms the strip which bends and breaks the circuit. The
    strip cools down and re-makes, then heats up and breaks.... and around
    and around it goes.
    
    Often there is a third contact, made when the main circuit is open,
    which lights the dashboard light, so the dash light normally is the
    reverse of the outside lights.
    
                 +--------+ normally
      Supply     | relay  | made contact    o------------+
    + +----------| with   |--------------o--             |
                 |bimetal |                 o--------+   |
                 |inside  |            switch        |   |
                 +--------+                   +------+   +------+
            Normally |                  left  |      |   |      | right
            open     O dash            lights O      O   O      O lights
            contact  | light                  |      |   |      |
    - +--------------+------------------------+------+---+------+
    
    If one outside bulb is faulty them the current is less, the heating is
    less therefore the open time is shorter and the flashing is much
    faster. It might even not open at all.
    
    Also the dash light wouldn't provide sufficient current to make it
    flash.
    
    Best bet
    1	Work out which connections are which on the flasher unit.
    	Connecting them together in turn should help you work it out.
    
    2	Bypass the relay by shorting the supply and feed to switch together.
    
    3	switch to each side in turn and make sure all the lights on the
    	side work and are full BRIGHTNESS (normally 21 watt lamps) 
    
    4	Repeat with opposite side
    
    5	Then try the unit again.
    
    Richard

    
    
    thanks richard, we'll give it a go.  my mot runs out tomorrow so we'll
    have to get going to be back on the road
    
    Clare.
    
    

    
    I'm looking for a second hand Land-Rover or Discovery. I would be
    grateful for details of any recommended  dealers in Southern England 
    (Reading - Bath approx). I've already visited Wadhams in Pangbourne but 
    they didn't have anything suitable.
     
    Thanks,
    
    Ray
    

    Try;
    
    GDF Landrovers.
    Hewens Wood Farm,
    Bradfield,
    Reading
    
    Tele 0734 745010
    
    Mentioned elsewhere in connection with Landrover servicing.
    
    Tell David/Gill I sent you.
    
    Regards, Howard.
    

    
    What sort of age/condition of Landy are you looking for? - prices tend
    to be better further North - around Birmingham, for older models, I
    think.  Have you thought of buying privately, cos dealers will be more
    expensive.
    
    Elaine

    The scene
    ~~~~~~~~~
    Wandering round the M25 at 7am (Yes no traffic jam)
    Speed - a mere 70 mph (Who wants to get to work early on a Monday
    morning)
    
    Next
    ~~~~
    Next I get overtaken by a mud hill
    No  its a .......
    	Landrover (G reg)
    I couldn't believe it so I just had to tail him and yes it really
    was a Landrover doing a steady 85 mph.
    I thought they had the following speed limiters as standard :
    		30	Congratulations, you've made it
    		50	OK. Now you are deaf for the rest of the day
    		65	Rivits not deciding to part from close formation
    			flying and go their own way
    Looks like this guy must have found a whole pile of Dylithium crystles
    somewhere to reach 85.
    
    Forever Afterwards
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Would never have believe it, but stranger things do happen.
    A guy got done for speeding in a Reliant Robin (the 3 wheel bath
    chairs) last year so just what out for the next Lada you pass.
    
    

    No Problem. Sounds liek it was a 3.5 Lt V8. I have had 85/90 in mine.
    Mind you it was down hill with a tail wind. I can pull 75/80 on the
    flat without too much trouble.
    
    Simon

Dylithium = V8 |  Tdi

Beware modern landies now have car performance but being hit by one is just the
same as it ever was.

Yes modern landies have reuseable crumple zones. i.e. the things they hit ;-)

    
    Well the landrover is nearly back on the road.  Whilst pulling up to
    the garage for a new tyre (�35) the bonnet went mad, 3 mechanics had a
    looked and said "New waterpump"  (�45)  Reasonable?!  Windscreen-wiper
    motor had been fixed and apparently there is a chance of revitalsing
    leaf springs by taking them off and removing the rust etc and some of
    magic things!  For a canvas roof and the frame and all the dooubries
    we've been quoted �150 ...it's the hassling insurance company time soon 
    8*)
    
    

    Hi,
    
    I've got a friend who has just had a Minerva Landrover series 1
    restored. This is a type of Landrover that was made under license from
    Landrover in Belgium. He has managed to get some information together
    on Minervas but has found sources to be limited. I was wondering if
    anyone out there had any experience of them or any information about
    them at all really.
    
    
    Jason.
    

    
    
    Anyone know of a LWB landrover, preferably hard top, for sale? 
    Must be a runner, but doesn't need to be pretty. Budget only up
    to about 1,500. Oh, also need a towbar.
    
    Thanks
    Karen
    

    Ring Dave Findley 0734 745010.
    
    Simon

    1981 (W reg) LWB Land Rover FOR SALE
    
    The time has come to say goodbye to faithful and reliable old friend.
    
    MOT:          June 94
    TAX:          June 94
    Colour:       Limestone (cream)
    Mileage:      78,000
    Engine:       2.6lts, Petrol
    Chassis:      Good, recently replaced rear cross member and some
                  outriggers.
    Tyres:        Good radials all round and matching unused spare.
    Suspension:   All roadsprings replaced and bushes replaced last year
    Steering:     Rececntly replaced all ball joints, steering relay and
                  damper.
    Brakes:       Recently replaced all brake pipes.
    Electrics:    Recent new battery, Lumenition electronic ignition, 12N
                  and 12S trailer sockets, interior light.
    Body (ext):   Not bad, rear sliding windows.
    Body (int):   Soundproofing felt in front, carpeting in rear, rear
                  inward facing bench seats (seats 7 plus two large dogs)
    
    Used for last 5 years as people carrier and tow vehicle for horse
    trailer.  The horse trailer has gone so we no longer have a need for
    Landy.
    
    Price �1990 ono
    
    Contact  Tony Kingston @IME or on DTN 769-8244 or at home 0252-871358
             Yateley, near Camberley on Surrey, Hants, Berks border.
     

    
    Anybody know what sort of MPG I could expect out of a 1988 Landrover
    110 2.5 litre diesel (not the tdi)?
    
    hanx..
    
    �john m

        At a guess I would say low 30s with carefull driving etc..
        
        Simon$3.5_V8_Driver

    My 90 turbo diesel 1989 vintage returns an average of about 24mpg solo
    and down to 21 towing.  You have to drive it *very* carefully to
    achieve 30+.  The TDi will give you about 30.
    
    Alan

    
    I read something somewhere that Landrover Turbo Diesel (not TDI) engines 
    may need to be rebuilt after 100,000 miles and are bad performers? Any
    comments?
    
    .j

    There are some views that the turbo diesel is an inherantly poor
    design.  It can tarce its history back to the original 2 litre diesel
    and has over the years grown in capacity and power.
    
    As in all these cases I can cite cases of these engines doing at least
    twice round the clock and I also know somwone who destroyed one in
    15,000 miles!
    
    Personal choice having owned a TD and got the Tdi in a Discovery:  go
    for the Tdi!  It's got a lot more poke and is more economical but the
    downside is it's a bit noisier.

    "Range Rover's success in the US has been noted at General Motors.
    
     Cadillac's dealers are buzzing with rumours that the division may
    offer an upmarket version of the new 4x4 which arrives next spring as a
    Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon."
    
    Take that quote for what it is, but I think this would be a real coup for
    Land Rover along with the fact that Honda already sell a badge
    engineered version of the Discovery in Japan.
    
    
    Reargards,  
    
    Stephen
    

    About to purchase a Mondeo class type of car ?
    
    Fancy one o' them new restyled Discovery thingies with a V8 engine, 
    alloy wheels, metallic paint, all leather interior, air conditioning, 
    cd system, twin air bags, electric windows, electric sun-roof, etc ?
    
    Fancy paying the same money for the Discovery as you might be
    contemplating on a Mondeo ?
    
    You would ?
    
    Well the catch is that you'll have to move to British Columbia first.
    
    30,000 Canadian dollars gets you the afore-mentioned Discovery
    package... along with a fully kitted out picnic hamper... I forgot to
    mention that ! Comes complete with two mugs with 'Land Rover' written
    on them... And there's plates and everyhing...
    
    Reargards,
    
    Stephen

What 30k in sterling?

    �What 30k in sterling?
    
    I assume you mean 'What is 30k in sterling?' as it was stated that
    it was Canadian dollars.
    
    I guess it works out at approx �17k.
    
    Royston

1) The US $ and Canadian $ are not equal - I can't remember which is
better.

2) The price probably doesn't include local taxes.

Peter

>1) The US $ and Canadian $ are not equal - I can't remember which is
>better.

For every $1.00 US you can buy approximately $1.25 CAN, give or take a few 
cents.

Dave 

    Hi
    
    Can anybody recommend a garage in the Reading area that service
    Dicovery's. I have rung the local main dealers such as Lancaster & Lex
    but really require somebody more in line with my bank balance.
    
    Has anybody got experiences of the Blue Garage and if possible their
    tel no ?
    
    The Disco requires a 96k service, I would expect to pay approx � 300
    and not �570 as quoted by the aforementioned main dealers.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Chris.

    Try David Findley on (0734) 745010 (GDF Landrovers).
    He rebuilds, services Landrovers, etc and may be interested in your Disco.
    Tell him Simon French sent you.
    
    Simon

I have just obtained an ex-MoD Lightweight FFR, and wondered if there is any
chance of getting a copy of the manual mentioned in .175 please.

Cheers

Peter

    
    I've just bought a 1990 110 County turbo diesel and I must admit its
    probably the finest 4x4 I've ever owned. Prior to this I've owned one
    of the ill-fated 2.2TD Isuzu Troopers and a Diahatsu Sportrak. The 
    Landrover has a certain presence that the other machines cannot come 
    near.
    
    There's a little bit of rust that I've treated so I've got that area
    under control! However, if anyone here can give me some insight into
    why the landy gives such a transmission kick when its put in gear I'd
    really appreciate it. If I'm careful I can change gears without any
    kick at all but there does seem to be a mighty kick off the
    transmission if I let out the clutch a bit fast.
    
    any ideas??
    
    >hanx..
    >john m

    Improve your driving :-)
    

    
    How do I go about that. Sometimes I here a bit of clutch plate activity
    when I change gears but since the Landrover is made up of so many
    moving/musical parts its sometimes difficult to asertain where the
    noise is coming from.
    
    whine-clang-clump
    
    >j

    .239 and the 'transmission kick'
    
    Between the engine and the wheels there are a number of places where
    this could be occuring:
    
    - the 'fierceness' of the clutch compared to an typical car,
    - the other sources are all called backlash.  Backlash is the slack in
    gears and joints and your LR has got the gearbox, the transfer box, the
    universal joints, and the differentials.
    
    The easiest to check are the universal joints.  Get underneath and take
    hold of the prop shaft.  If you can turn it whilst the drives into the
    gearbox and diff housing stay still then the UJ spiders(s) are shot. 
    Changing a spider isn't difficult if you have a pair of pliers to work
    the circlips and a sturdy vice to drive the needle bearing bushes out
    and in.  (60 minutes to do the job: remove prop shaft, change two
    spiders and refit prop shaft).
    
    Once you've eliminated the UJs as the source you can do the same sort
    of thing to assess the backlash in the differentials.  The backlash
    should be negligible.  Otherwise you've got to get the diff re-shimmed,
    or the crownwheel and pinion changed.  Those are both more costly,
    believe me, and should be investigated for optimal cost effectiveness
    of fixing.  I.e. balance labour cost v. cost of spares.
    
    If the backlash is in the transfer box or gearbox then the cost of
    remedy goes up another notch or two.
    
    Otherwise, try a heavier grade oil in the gear box, transfer box and
    differentials, as well as driving with a lighter left foot.

    Not entirely sure if the transmission layout on a 110 is similar to the
    Discovery. If so it may be the same problem I have suffered and which
    is due to be put right next week.
    
    The  problem I have is a 'clunk' when taking up the drive, more
    noticeable when towing. I am told the problem is a worn A bolt ball
    joint, my understanding being that this stops any 'tramping' on the
    rear axle. A relatively inexpensive job, about �35.00 and not to
    difficult to replace by the looks. I'll let you know if this totally
    cures the problem.
    
    Regards
    Chris. 

    
    Had a good look underneath the Landrover last night and I found that
    while the rear prop shaft is fine, there is some travel in the front
    prop shaft. Could this be the problem?
    
    >j

    Front prop shaft?  Maybe
    
    It depends on what the drive arrangement is.
    
    If you are able to manually select 2 or 4 wheel drive from a gearbox...
    	AND you normally use 2 wheel...
    	THEN the front PS shouldn't cause the problem.
    
    If 4 wheel is always engaged and there's a freewheel that you can
    engage...
    	THEN the front PS could be the cause.

    
    If it's anything like our 1968 MKII A (and series III are) and I
    understand the problem correctly, the drive train learches when a gear
    is engaged the problem is likely to be as simple as the "tick-over" is
    set to high. We get a similar problem, drive train kicks and gears are
    difficult to select when the "tick-over" is increased over 800 rpm.
    According to the work shop manual the engine rev's should be between
    500 and 600 rpm at idle, but we can only get ours into line with the
    governments co2 guidlines with an idle speed of under 450 rpm.
    
    
    
      Alan
    
    ps check the clutch linkage for slack and bushing wear..

    
    re .247
    
    Its easy to change gears, no major problem there and I can drive
    without any mechanical banging if I'm fairly careful letting out the
    clutch. I'm just curious if I need to get the front prop shaft looked
    at.
    
    re .246
    
    The Landrover 110 is a permanent 4wd system, so the front shaft is
    always driving. The 1990 110 cannot take freewheeling hubs either.
    
    >j

    Sounds like the front prop shaft could be contributing.

    Just in case :-
    
    Are there any serious off-roader out there who need a Landie? Or maybe
    even just a road-going nutter who wants more ooomph. I ask because my
    housemate has a Series II for sale with a Steve Parker 3.0 V6
    conversion. The car is sound in mechanics/chassis/body department but
    needs tarting up if you didn't want to use it for just off-roading.
    
    Needless to say, it moves a bit.
    
    Anyone interested?
    
    Also, my housemate and I would be interested to know of any 4x4
    off-roading clubs in the Reading area who are into a bit of green
    laning, etc. Do any exist? Anybody out there in the Reading area who
    shares a love for the darling Landies doing what they're best at?!
    
    Drop us a mail/note !
    
    Cheers, keep on 4x4ing
    
    Dan
    ;-)

    I took my wife and kids to the New England Auto Show this weekend, in
    theory to look at various low-end Mazda sedans to replace our rusty
    Escort. While I was gazing at the Lotus 18, she was climbing all over
    a green Land Rover Discovery. Bottom line is that she now has this idea
    that if she were to buy such a car (?), it could be the last one she
    ever needed. (Note that she coped fine with our old FJ55 Land Cruiser
    wagon, so this dimension of the problem isn't a big concern.)
    
    Specifically what I'd like to find out is whether it's still true that:
    
    a.) The Land Rover Discovery has a steel frame, roof, bulkhead
    (firewall, cowl, what-have-you), and various other small parts, but the
    bulk of the body is made of aluminum. At one point I got the impression
    that there is an inner body made of steel, which would not be
    attractive in our extremely salt-laden winter streets. There do appear
    to be some galvanized panels, e.g. inner front fenders (wings).
    
    b.) All Land Rover parts are still available, even since the recent
    corporate changes, and this is the policy for the Discovery. The idea
    is to buy one of these (asking US$34,000) and keep on fixing it
    forever.
    
    c.) She can visit the Land Rover factory and take a tour.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Doug.

    c) The Solihull factory?! Umm, well, yes I think you can.... hold on,
    are you serious or is there some factory over there in New England?!
    
    :-S

    Do the Land Rover off road driving courses/experience include any kind
    of factory visit?
    
    Andrew

    My dad used to work there, and I'm sure he said you could get a visit
    around the factory and then get taken along the test course.
    
    I remember the tales he told of a Rangey crawling up the incline in low
    range - and it was just idling.....
    
    Whether they still do this, I don't know..... things have changed a lot
    in 10+ years!
    
    And if they DO do it, how much it costs is another thing....!
    
    Good luck!

    All the steel parts are very thoroughly galvanised and the handbook
    includes full details of how to clean the underside of all sorts of
    debris, including salt.  So as long as you keep it washed down that
    shouldn't be a problem.
    
    WRT spares I'd be tempted to ask your local agent for re-assurance. 
    But all that I've read indicates that a major reason for BMW buying
    Rover was to pick up the very lucrative LR market.  In which case I
    can't imagine them dumping the spares supply.  Don't get the idea that
    the spares are cheap though.  I was trying one recently and whilst I
    had it it needed a new clutch.  The bill was in the region of $900 for
    parts and labour.  Why not enquire about the cost of tyres and use that
    as a rough yardstick on spares costs?
    
    If you get the 2 litre Tdi then reckon on 25 miles per gallon (US) for
    general driving.  It drops off dramatically if you're just messing
    around town, it also goes down the tubes if you go off-road.

	Even if BMW decided to stop all LR production tomorrow, they 
	will still be legally obliged in the UK to ensure a complete
	supply of spares for a number of years.

	Ian.

    Don't know if this helps, but I have a chum in Vancouver, Canada who
    drives a Range Rover; he has had no problem in obtaining spares (and
    that includes things like a new bonnet (plus a few othe body bits)
    after another vehicle hit him at an intersection.
    
    Servicing has not produced any unexpected costs either.
    
    The Vancouver Land Rover dealership is also currently selling any and
    all Discovery's that it can lay its hands on.
    
    Reargards,
    
    Stephen
    

 Now is the time to clutch straws and test the power of NOTES.

 Im looking for someone who has 'legally' imported a car to France, 
 and who could possibly help me out. 

 As I have posted before, I am getting a landie built up in the UK 
 for export to France. The exporting bit is me driving it across :-)
 When the landie is finished it will be a left hand drive, makes sense
 when driving in France, and will have some other minor [sic] modifications.
 One of those being the removal of the normal engine and a V8 unit being 
 intalled in the REAR (ooo-eerrr).

 Now the problem, to get it registered in France will be a hassle but I am
 quite prepared to wait it out as long as I am in the registration process.
 I have applied and received the neccesary paperwork. The paperwork says 
 I have to contact Rover in France for a certificate of conformity. I tried 
 this and when I told the guy what I was importing I emitted an evil laugh 
 and hung up the phone. What do I do now ? 

 Once again if anyone has been through this process drop me a line even if 
 it was for a non-modified car,

 Mark.

 PS: Once I start the registration process I'm happy to let things roll slowly
     as I wont be required to pay road tax etc.....:-) 

    Importing such a modified vehicle, I wouldn't be surprised if you hit
    some rather big problems ..... I certainly can't see how you'd get
    Rover to give you a "certificate of conformity" .... conformity to
    what, may I ask? That the car is original?! No chance :-)
    
    Maybe the solution is to import it as a standard vehicle, and then do
    the conversion work in France? I dunno........
    
    Dan

    This must be in the same league as draining the Atlantic with a beer
    mug.  But nevertheless...
    
    There's a Brit works at:
    
    	Garage Butte Rouge
    	Av Div Leclerc
    	92290 Chatenay Malabry
    
    They're the local Rover dealers and he may, just, be able to help with
    what the regulations and/or possibilities are.  You'll have to use
    Minitel to get the number.

 Thanks to WELSWS::HILLN, I'll give that guy a try.

 What I am building up is not that outrageous, many people have taken 
 old landies and 'modified' them by replacing the powerplant with a V8.
 Admittedly putting in the back is novel but why not.

 In fact one landie of this type already exists in the UK and has won 
 a few trophy's mainly in the safari type of event. This landie, as will
 mine is street legal, has reg plates, MOT, insurance (220 pounds per year)
 etc... so I fail to see the reason why I cant bring it over here,

 anyway I'm off to phone that garage,

 Mark.

From what I remember, and unless it's all changed in France recently, for you to
be able to import a car into France, it has to be "approved".  That means, it
has to be a model of car that has been officially sold in France, and the
manufacturer to have approval for it.  This explains why you don't see kit cars
and the like in France.  Ie, unless Rover have sold a rear-engined Land Rover in
France, and had it type approved by the French government, then you may have
problems.  Maybe Patrick can clear this up, or else you could try in
EURO_MOTORING.

Farrell.

 Thanks Farrell,

 What you are saying is correct, it appears that the steps are...

 1. Obtain a certificate from Rover France to say that a series II 
    landrover conforms.

 2. Write to the minister of transport declaring modifications.

 3. Get a green light from the minister, or a red light. If green 
    this is the end of the process.

 4. If red light take the beast to a specialised test station for 
    an 'engineering review' (this is getting to sound like DEC).
    If they cant see a problem you get the green light and off you
    go. A red light at this stage means you cant drive it on the 
    road, or so you would think :-)

 Alternatives:

 Purchase a forged carte gris 'the bit of paper that is carried in 
 all cars' to prove the car conforms. NOTE: I dont recommend this 
 step and wont be attempting it.

 Or, and this is legal, have the car *owned* by someone in the UK
 having me as a temporary driver. This way you have to keep it on 
 UK plates.

 All that said and done, what happenned to the European Union. As a 
 citizen of Europe why am I blocked from driving a car that is quite
 legal in one member state but not in another, it stinks !!  

�All that said and done, what happenned to the European Union. As a 
�citizen of Europe why am I blocked from driving a car that is quite
�legal in one member state but not in another, it stinks !!

Huh!  Tell me about it.

If you still decide to go ahead with the importation, I'd check and see if the
French insurance will cover you, 'cos you may find that no-one else will touch a
foreign registered car, so it's worth bearing that in mind as well.

I'm currently driving a UK registered car in Germany, which is insured in
France!!!  Not the easiest way, but one of the only combination which works! :-)

Farrell.

    Can you import it into France before it's been modified. Then modify
    after it's been registered. (Take it back to England to be modified).
    
    Is there any problem with modifying a car in France ? Do you have to
    re-register it ?
    
    Andrew

 >>   Can you import it into France before it's been modified. Then modify
 >>   after it's been registered. (Take it back to England to be modified).
   
 Actually its easier than that, just drive the car across then declare it has been 
 modified. They dont know when it first came across. The key point here is to 
 get the certificate de conformite of the base vehicule. Worry about the 
 modifications later.

 
>>    Is there any problem with modifying a car in France ? Do you have to
>>    re-register it ?


 This is the B I G  problem. Any modifications carried out to any items defined
 in the certificate de conformite need to be declared. One example would be using 
 a different exhaust or putting on a different set of tyres.

 Now I know why you dont see that many French plated rally cars :-(

 Mark.

    
    	Garage Butte Rouge
    	53, Ave Div Leclerc
    	92290 Chatenay Malabry

	Tel: [+33] (1) 46 61 04 10
             [+33] (1) 46 61 13 92

        Martin.

	P.S. Farrell, didn't fluffy insure his UK registered Escort
             in Ferney? Groupe Azur could not find the exact model,
             but he did eventually get it registered.
        PPS. He also got a green card (by default), but that is an-
             other topic!

�            P.S. Farrell, didn't fluffy insure his UK registered Escort
�            in Ferney? Groupe Azur could not find the exact model,
�            but he did eventually get it registered.

Yes, but I think they ended up reclassifying it as a mobile hair dressing salon
(or should that be saloon)? :-)

It's definately something worth checking though.  You may find that even if you
get the car imported, if it's not in the French insurers Bumper Book of Cars,
then they may refuse to cover it.

You could always use the "I'm on a very long holiday" or "extended business
trip" excuse, and just not bother to import it at all!

Farrell.

    It's a whole can of worms what ever you do.
    
    The problems I had trying to drive an orininally US registered Porsche
    that had been imported to the UK, and registered with Uk plates in
    France.
    
    To register it in France I would have had to put the car back into the 
    French spec for a 1968 Porsche. The tyres would have to be the original 
    make and model, no longer available, same for the Exhaust, light lenses 
    and bulbs (can you believe it) etc, etc, etc. Not possible.
    
    If You keep it registerd in the UK, You have the problem of paying
    double for your insurance if you want a 12 month green card.
    
    The solution was keep it registerd in the UK, take out French
    insurance. Bring the car back every year for the MOT. That just leaves 
    the Tax disc problem. You can't buy a tax disc
    with French insurance. So you have to bluff a UK insurance company to
    give you a cover note while you buy the tax disk.
    
    One slight problem is the worry when you get stopped by the French
    Police, for having a car alarm that looks like a radar detector on the
    dash board, and hoping they don't notice the french insurance
    certificate on the windscreen, a good hint that the car has been in
    France longer than 6 months. 
    
    The last problem is getting the Uk insurance company to accept the
    French No-claims Certificate when you come back to the UK and want UK
    insurance again.
    
    It's great to see the effect of the EEC unifing European laws.
    
    Cheers Nick  

 Here's the progress so far.....

 Phoned the garage in Chatenay Malabry and spoke to a Mr Boyse telling him 
 where I got his name from. To say he was amazed was an understatement. This
 Mr Boyse is a dealer/salesman so wasnt totally aware of all the ins and outs.
 
 When I told him I wanted to import a Landrover from UK to FRance he wasnt 
 expecially interested, as there was nothing in it for him I suppose. BUT, 
 when I mentioned the modifications aspect he suddenly became extremely 
 interested telling me that he had 'raced' landies when in the UK and also 
 knew of someone who also had a mid-engined V8 landie. In fact this chat on 
 converting/modifying landies went on for at least 45 minutes. Eventually I 
 had to stop him from talking, as I was paying the phone bill :-(

 Anyway, he passed me the name of Mr Coigner from Rover HQ in Paris (who is 
 president of the French Jaguar Club)  to give me some help. I'll be contacting
 him next week and hope the conversation flows just as well.

 On a final note I also discussed, with Mr Boyse, the common or-not-so common
 market aspect. He totaly agreed and coulnt see why, legally, you cant just 
 bring the car across and get it registered 'hassle free'.

 During the conversation I tried the 'I'll make it worth your while' tactic and
 told him that when I bring the Landie over I will make a deviation to the route 
 and drop by to fit some french headlights if he can get hold of them. So looks 
 like I'll be making a trip via Chatenay in April,

 Mark.
 

    To Chatenay from the coast:
    
    A26 to Lille
    A1 to Paris, Roissy
    A3 to Paris
    A86 around south side of Paris (includes a section of the A4)
    After crossing the A6 leave at signs for Chatenay and Antony.
    
    GBR is on the left about 1,5 kms from wher you left the A86

    Question :
    
    	Will a series I 2litre petrol go into a Series II without any
    hassle (WRT bellhousing, engine mounts, etc) ??
    
    Another Question :
    
    	Anyone know of an Internet mailing list for Land Rovers?
    
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    I think they are almost the same engine. I do believe there is a
    mailing list.
    
    Simon

    Thanks, Simon. Just need the address for the mailing list now ;-).
    
    Well we got the old 2.25 petrol out yesterday (4 of us, a rope, a
    scaffy pole and lots of heave-ho!) and I stripped it down. Knackered!
    
    Shell bearings scored, metal in the oil, and there was even a bolt
    rattling around inside the timing chain cover section! How it got in
    there I daren't think... some careless previous owner I imagine. There
    had obviously been water in the bored because the pistons are scrap
    (rusty) and the block the same. Still, the rods/crank/etc can be
    salvaged.
    
    If anyone needs spare parts for a 2.25 petrol engine, excluding the
    actual block and pistons themselves, I know where some are available
    ;-) !!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    I'm looking for an old Landrover 110 (or 130), but I don't want to
    pay much. My mate back in England can't find ANY for less than 10
    grand!! - is this typical, or is he looking in the wrong places??
    
    I only wanted to pay about 3 grand.
    
    Thanks...
    Al.

    Tell him to call GDF Landrovers 01734 745010.
    
    Tell them Howard sends his regards.

I'l second GDF Landrovers. Just been speaking to David today.

A 110 Landrover isn't old to Landrover standards. Series three are
almost old. Series Two, Two A, series one. Now they ARE old.

Get you mate to get a copy of Landrover Owner International. Somtimes there are
some for under 4K but mostly they are 6K and up. 

Simon

    Thanks for the info.
    
    GDF sound like they're good, but I assume there 'down-sarf' - do you
    know if they deliver, and could you trust 'em to deliver you a good
    one? 
    I'll tell him about Landrover Owner International.
    
    If I payed 6k, would I be getting a sound car, or a project? or would
    you advise me to pay more (or forget the whole idea)?
    
    Thanks again,
    Al