Conference 7.286::home_work

    I have stained several houses in the last few years and I would
    recommend using Olympic Brand Semi-transparent or solid color stain.
    They make both oil and latex based depending on what you are staining
    over.  (Note: there is a promotional sale going on now for Olympic
    with a factory rebate from the manufacturer.)

    I'm partial to Cabot's or Benjamin Moore.
    
    Steve

  When we had our house restained last year the painter strongly
  recommended OLYMPIC solid stain vs other brands and strongly
  recommended not continuing with the semi-transparent stain in
  any brand. The builder stained our new home with one-coat of
  semi-transparent and as a result I had to invest another $2500
  for a new paint job, done correctly, less than 6 months later.

    I don't stain my house but my parents have always used Cabot with
    great results....They have had the house fifteen years and have
    restained it once....and are planning to do it again next year "because
    it is about time" even though it still looks fine.
    
    -Jay
    

    I USED CUPRINOL ON MY SHINGLES 2 1/2 YEARS AGO. IT WAS A SEMI
    TRANSPARENT STAIN, AND I HAVEN'T HAD A PROBLEM WITH IT.
    
    JOHN
    

I am about to buy my first home, and would like some advice.
The house is a 12 year old mid-size ranch, and has never been repainted
since the original paint job.  Needless to say, it is in need of a
good repainting, which I would like to do as soon as possible.

A friend advised me to wait until Spring... he says this time of
year is not good for painting?  Is this true?  The house has
wide composition-hardboard cladboards.  Any advice?

	Rico

    You are also getting close to new roof time too, they generally
    die anywhere between 10 and 20 years and you probably have the oroginal
    equipment version on there now.
    
    It is my understanding that September is a good time to paint because
    it is generally drier and not so hot that the paint dries to fast.
    
    Happy home ownership,
    
    -boB

    
    My opinion would be to go ahead and paint it now.  My husband is
    a painter and from the long hours they've been putting in, I can't
    see how September could possibly be a bad time.

    I'm planning on painting my place this weekend (9/19). Sounds like
    your friend wants to stay out of a helpers job. Ha! Ha!
    

Just one note of caution is the temperature!  Depending on the type of paint
you use, you may need reasonable warm weather (at least 50 if not 60 degrees).

One other comment is on the type of paint.  If it's latex, there's probably not
too much concern about humidity.  However, if you're staining or using oil based
paint watch out!  You need dry walls or you're gonna be in trouble.  I've 
started staining my house in June and due to all the wet weekends we've been
having haven't done much in the last 2 months!

-mark

    Re.4
    Good for you!!!  I am glad to see that some people start the 
    job right from the beginning!  With ALL the wet weather that we've
    had, I can imagine why it's taken you so long to paint your house.
    It's frustrating but probably worth the wait for dry weather.
    
    If I had the choice, I would wait to paint my house in the 
    spring.  Chances are that the weather pattern will not 
    break significantly in the near future to warrant that dry spell
    that is needed for the paint to penetrate and adhere.  Particular
    attention should be paid to the hardboard.  If it is damp at time
    of painting, you'll be scraping and sanding the new peeling 
    paint in a short time.....
    

    Has anyone had any experience with 'Weathering Stains'?  I'm trying
    to match old finish with new construction.
    
    I've got a saltbox that was sided with red cedar clapboards about
    8 years ago, 2 3/4" to the weather.  I was informed that the original
    stain was a mixture of Cabot's clear and tinted (Seal Brown) weathering
    stains  (creosote based).  The clapboards have weathered to a nice
    mixture of brown, black, and grey.  Deerfield village colors if
    you will, the place looks like late 1700's construction. 
    
    The problem:  I just added a 30 x 40' 2 1/2 story attached barn/garage
    and want the finishes to match.  Cabots doesn't supply creosote based
    stain any more, although they still sell 'weathering' stain (clear
    and Seal Brown) that is a petroleum based product.  I called Cabot's
    main offices and couldn't get past marketing (or first base, take
    your choice) for any reliable information.
    
    Inquiring minds want to know:
    
      o Will this new stuff age the same way as the creosote?  Creosote
        seems to be totally out of the question.  Cabot's  won't supply
        it, it REALLY smells, and applying it will probably kill me.  
      
      o How long does it take before it starts to 'weather'?  
    
      o Any chance of matching the older construction finish in my
        lifetime?
        
    
    Thanks for any input...
    
    	Roger
      o Anyone out there had any experience with weathering stains on
        cedar clapboards?
    
    
    
    

     You will never be able to match the weathering that has occured,
    even if you had the same batch of stain that was originally applied.
    The only thing you can do is to get a stain or bleaching stain
     (or a mix of two, or a custom matched color) (my father could do
    it for you but he lives on Cape Cod) that matches the present color
    of the original wood. After a number of years (6-10) it may match.
    If it didn't you would have two possible choices.
    		1. depending upon the color difference you may be able
    to restain the newer wood some color to regain the match.
    		2. stain the entire structure some color which would
    bring the two woods into the same color (probably darker)
    
     The reason you could never get the two woods to match (even if
    you had the original stain) is because there is no way for the new
    wood to catch up to the old wood in weathering.
    
     The difference between bleaching oil and bleaching stain is that
    the bleaching stain has some pigment in it to give you a head start
    in the weathered look you wish.
    
    					Kenny
    

    I've hit the new construction with the same color mix as the house
    was done in originally.  The the finish is already begining to
    darken, but isn't showing the varigation that the house has.  I agree 
    with you that I'm caught with different aging rates.
    
    What I think I'll do is restain the barn again next year with the 
    pigmented stuff and the house with the clear stuff in the hopes of 
    helping to match colors somewhat.
    
    	/thanx for the input		roger

    I just purchased a large Garrison and the contractor we purchased
    it from just installed the the shutters.  Theres only one problem
    with them, I HATE THE COLOR.  They are exactly what he said he would 
    put on (brown vinyl) so I can't ask him to change them.  I would like
    to know if anyone has had any experience in painting vinyl shutters
    and if I do paint them, am I going to have to maintain them?
    
    I am not sure if painting is the best way or should I just sell
    them all (nine pairs) and buy new ones!!
    
    I dont suppose there would be someone out there who would like to
    trade brown for cream white?? 
    

     Although I've heard of paints that can be used on vinyl I've only
    seen one. That is the paint used for Raingo gutters. It only comes
    in brown, but supposedly after you paint over vinyl with it you
    can then use regular paint over it. The problem is that normal paint
    (oil or latex) won't really stick to most plastics (if not all).
       You also have another problem if you paint the shutters; you
    WILL have to paint them regularly. Plus if there is even a small
    paint chip or flake it will really show up because of the great
    change you will have between the two colors.
    
      Although they are fairly expensive, my advice (if you want to
    spend the money) is to buy wooden shutters and stain them the color
    you want. You will have to restain them every 5 years or so but
    you won't have any scraping and peeling to worry about. That is
    of course if you use oil-based stain. And guess what, Cuprinol's
    new semi-transparent oil stain cleans up with water!
    
    					Kenny
    

    I have just installed a bunch of shutters on my house this past
    weekend. I painted them to match the front door. You can easily
    paint your shutters with any good quality latex house paint. I used
    Olympic Overcoat.
    

I don't want to rain on your parade, but if you painted vinyl shutters, 
just because they look nice now doesn't mean they'll look nice in 1 
year!  Most paints/stains don't like to stick to non-porous materials.

There may be a way, but I don't know it.  When I installed some Andersen 
casements, I had the option of getting them in vinyl or wood.  Since I 
didn't like the color of the vinyl (but DID like the protection it 
offered) I called the factory and asked if there was any way known to 
man to reliably change the color and the answer was a resounding NO!  I 
bought the wooden ones...

As far as buying 9 pairs of shutters, they'll run you big bucks.  I had 
to buy some around 5 years ago and think I ended up paying around $30 or 
$40 a pair (not really sure on the $$$).

As for painting them (or staining), that job is the pits!  I just did 9 
pair myself a couple of weeks ago.  I consider myself a fast painter 
since I did it while in school and it still took me around 12 minutes a
shutter (not much to think about while working, so you end up watrching 
the clock a lot).  That's almost an entire day and I cheated by only 
doing one side!  The second coat only averages around 7 minutes per 
shutter because I didn't have to be as careful.

Any way you cut it, shutters are a real pain (at least they look good 
when you're done!).

-mark

     Painting over any plastic is a real invitation to have peeling
    paint in just a short time. Not only that the paint will likely
    peel off in big pieces! If you have any trouble believing that then
    check on the recommendations of Olympic and others on what to do
    if the surface of your house has any kind of sheen to it. Olympic
    (which is definately good stuff) says to pressure wash with a strong
    detergent (ie TSP) to kill the sheen to allow a better bond. Other
    brands recommend washing and then priming with an oil-base primer
    first. (latex paint has great difficulty sticking to a shiny surface)
    
     Ditto on the cost of wooden shutters, they are expensive
     ($10-$20 each depending upon size, type and quality). Did you ever
    try to use an electric hand sprayer on them? I can also paint fast,
    and the last time I did shutters I also did them by hand because
    I only had 5 pairs to do. (I figured it wasn't worth the extra time
    to setup and clean the spraygun) So I've never yet used a spraygun
    on them, but my father says it works well.
    
    					Kenny
    
    I hope that guy who painted his plastic shutters lucks out, but
    I wouldn't bet on it.

    When I moved into my house 2 1/2 years ago the shutters were in
    bad shape.  I painted them using Sears Best Exterior latex.
    Preparation work was cleaning off all loose paint and removing
    sheen.  The shutters still look good and there isn't any evidence
    of peeling.

    My colonial garrison is 7 and a half years old. It has plastic
    shutters. The builder lightly sanded them before painting. Three
    years later, they were fine. No chips or flakes. At three years,
    I had the house restained and the shutters repainted (Olympic
    Overcoat). Now, four years later, the house looks like it ought
    to be restained next year. But the shutters are A1. The only
    maintenance I have done to their paint is I annually run over them
    with a soft brush to remove the rain-borne-dirt (They're painted
    very light gray against a dark brown house and the rain-borne-dirt
    shows up on the ground floor ones. It may be there on the 2nd floor
    shutters, but you can't see it from the ground floor.)
    
    If you're going to paint plastics, run over them with some fine
    sandpaper first to break the surface very slightly. Replacing them
    is foolish unless they're broken.

       I also had no problems painting my plastic shutters with a cheapo
      electric sprayer (Zayre ~ $23.00) and that was 3 years ago.
                                                                /BB

    I recently painted 14 shutters with a spay gun. It took about a
    1.5 houts to spay on one coat. I tried to use a electric gun but
    it required the paint to be thinned too much so I borrowed a
    compresssor and air gun. Plastic can be painted sucessfully if properly
    primed, trouble is plastic shutters look crappy.

    As mentioned in .2, I painted my shutters recently and they look
    MARRvvelous. They are a pain to paint by hand but I just poured
    the latex paint into my ell-cheap-oo sprayer and put two coats on
    8 shutters in less then 1 hour.
    

    I forgot to add that, in my first house I had painted the vinyl
    shutters with a latex paint and after 6 years they still looked
    good with no sign of flaking or paint failure.
    

    Although this is a bit off the original question it may be of interest.
    A friend of mine has a 200+ yr old house with MANY shutters- i think
    30 or 40 sets, and they all had VERY thick paint. He stripped them
    by setting up an old oil tank cut into a trough, filled with lye
    and warmend by a wood fire under the tank. The shutters were dipped
    for a few minutes and rinsed off with a hose. The paint just washed
    off. You would have to see one of the shutters to believe how well
    they cleaned up. Cost was about $30 for the old tank nad $40 for
    abour 5 gallons of caustic soda. A lot cheaper than buying new
    shutters! 
    
    

  Late update:  I changed my mind completely, and decided to put up
  vinyl siding instead of painting.  The old siding was that "particle
  wood" type stuff and was rotten in some places.  I decided it was
  best to go with the siding.

  I am kind of a rookie DIYer, but with the help of a couple friends
  we did the job in a few weekends.  I put up 1/2" Kopper's insulation
  over the existing clapboards and then the siding.  I found the biggest
  pain of putting up siding to be fitting all the J-channel, the strips
  that go around all the windows, doors, chimney, etc.
  But I'm happy with the way it came out and it was sure a lot cheaper
  than having it done.

		Rico

    I am currently planning to do over a bathroom.  My question is about
    an effective way to "paint" on a vapor barrier, if possible.  I
    have blown in insulation in the attic with no vapor barrier, and
    I am trying to minimize the vapor infiltration from the high humidity
    bathroom.  Do they sell some sort of coating that will prevent moisture
    from passing through the ceiling?  Will ordinary wall primer/sealer
    (oil/akryd (sp??)) do the trick?
    
    P.S.  This would be applied below the latex paint.  I am also using
          vinyl wallpaper for the walls.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Steve
    
    

    Glidden sells a latex base vapor barrier paint called Insul-Aid.
    It should do a better job than oil base and is much easier to clean
    up after. According to the manufacturer it will reduce moisture
    infiltration by over 90%. I believe most Aubuchon stores carry it.
    
    - Rich

    Rather than keep all of the moisture within the bathroom and
    preventing it from penetrating your insulation, why don't you
    think about installing a ventilating fan.  That way, the moisture
    level will be kept down and your insulation will be saved and
    you can use regular paint.
    
    -al

    re .2
    
    Maybe I'm being lazy, but the thought of playing around in my attic
    (loose cellulose insulation) is not too appealing.  Also, the bathroom
    does have a window, so there is an outlet for steam if opened.
    
    Thanks for the advice, though.  It's a good idea, but one I would
    like to avoid if possible.

	I'm getting ready to put the finish trim in a porch that I built last
year.  The porch has screens all the way around so the window sills and all 
associated wood is going to be exposed to the elements.  In view of the fact 
that I don't want to paint the wood but would rather leave it natural, what 
would be the best (read most durable) finish that I can use?

      The best natural finish you can use for outdoors is marine
    Spar-varnish. It is what is used on the wood parts of boats. It,
    like any other finish will require periodic recoating, but I think
    any wood exposed to lots of water and sun will do best with it.
     
      I wouldn't use polyurethane. When poly is used in a location exposed
    to the weather it eventually starts to peel, and a big problem with
    poly is getting additional coats to adhere properly. Proper sanding
    usually would take care of that problem, but who wants to do it
    if you don't have to.
    
    					Kenny

>      The best natural finish you can use for outdoors is marine
>    Spar-varnish. It is what is used on the wood parts of boats. 

I've spent too much time sanding boats to agree.  

We just finished off a screen porch last year, and we used Cuprinol Wood
Preservative on it. It's clear, smells awful, soaks in without leaving a
finish on the wood and doesn't seem to change the color of the wood at
all (we used it on southern yellow pine ship-lap.)  It's too early to
say if it wears well, but it made it through the winter fine.  I was
planning on putting more on when the weather got mild.  That'll give it
time for the stink to wear off before we start using the porch. 

					>>>==>PStJTT

    How about using linseed oil?  Two coats provides excellent water
    protection, retains the original color of the wood with just a mild
    added yellow tint and does not subject the wood to weathering (graying)
    as does the cuprinol or other wood preservative product.
    
    I suggest trying a little of each on some test pieces and seeing
    what you like best.  

  Re: .3

  How often do you have to re-apply linseed oil if you use it outdoors?  
  I like it too but didn't realize that it was weatherproof...

  JP

    The school of thought (according to my carpenter neighbor) is
    that two coats of original application are good for 4-5 years.
    An additional coat every 5 years should be expected, but the
    actual recoat period is very much determined by the exposure to
    direct sunlight.  A very good method of determining if it is time
    to recoat is to sample coat a small section.  If the linseed oil
    is absorbed readily, recoat the entire surface.  If the linseed
    oil simply sits on the exterior and does not penetrate the surface
    no new coat is necessary -- it won't soak into the wood!!!
    

  I've got two neighbors who have put clear cedar clapboards on their homes
  recently.  They've been advised that they should not try to seal or finish
  this siding immediately but should let the stuff weather for 2-6 months so
  that the natural oils dry out.  We all think that the natural finish is
  beautiful and would like to preserve that look.  

  Is there any product that would seal the wood and let the natural look
  remain and is as durable as even the semi-transparent stains?  The only
  products we've seen used tend to need an application every year or so
  to keep the wood sealed and that seems like too big a price to pay.


  JP

    Some of this stuff has been discussed before, but I can't remember
    where.  Maybe try titles with "cedar" in them.
    
    But anyway, some comments.
    
    1) Cedar is naturally weather resistant.  That's because the natural
    oils don't dry out.  So
    
          a) Finishing/sealing provides no advantages from a durability
    	     standpoint. It only affects appearance.
    
    	  b) If you do finish it, waiting doesn't prove anything.
	     Don't know where the info is coming from that you should
             wait.    
    
    2) However, if you don't finish it, it will turn gray over time.
    It will look quite different from when it's first installed.  You
    have to decide if that's what you like.
    
    3) If you do put some kind of clear stain/sealer on to keep it from
    graying, be careful what you use - Western red cedar contains oils
    that will cause a red "bleeding" with some kinds (or maybe all)
    clear stains.
     
 

     White cedar will turn silver-gray with age, red cedar will turn
    almost black.
    
      You can use a bleaching oil which has no color in it, but you
    will still get some weathering of the color. 
       You can also use a bleaching or weathering stain which does have
    a little color in it to help hasten the natural weathering process.
    
      There is virtually nothing you can do which will keep the wood
    at it's new tannish color when it is exposed to the sun. The only
    thing available in a coating which will stop the weathering process
    is pigment (read a color), since it is the ultraviolet from the
    sun that does most of the weathering. One thing you could do is
    use something like Thompson's water seal, until you don't like the
    color, then stain to the color you like.
    
    Note: when I say weather I mean the natural change of color which
    occurs in unstained or unpainted cedar over a period of time. 
    
    					Kenny

    One of the interesting things that happens when weather is allowed
    to weather rthe finish is you have an uneven weathering job. 
    My neighbor's house looks like the day it was built on the north
    side and various shades of grey on the rest of the house.
    I would think this could be avoided by speeding the process along
    to an even grey all the way around.
    
    Just my $.02
    
    -j
    

I think there are a couple of products that will keep at least some semblance 
of the natural color over time, but as you noted, they are going to require 
more frequent redoing than paint.  Bear in mind, though, that it takes about 
1/3 the time to apply a clear finish as is does paint.  You may have to do it 
every two years, but that's about the same amount of total time as painting 
your house every 6 years.

We've used a finish called CWF (Clear Wood Finish) on our redwood siding, and 
it has maintained a beautiful golden color over two years, although it does 
now need another coat.  So far, I'm very pleased with it, and it's not 
tremendously expensive.

I think the best finish available is one made by a Scandanavian company called 
Sikkens.  They have a three-coat system that is essentially a clear, 
ultraviolet opaque paint.  It's incredibly expensive, though, so I've never 
tried it, but it looks pretty impressive.

Paul

    Well, after looking through ALL of the paint notes, I didn't find
    what I was looking for so here goes.
    
    I just painted an old peeling ceiling with Sears best "Ceiling latex
    paint". (Yes I scraped and washed it).  Seems like good stuff, but there
    was an immediate reaction with the old stuff.  I mean, it started
    peeling off before it was dry.  What a mess this made.  I called a
    paint store and the guy said, "Yeah, you've got Calcimine paint up
    there. Terrible stuff". 
    
    He reccomended thinning some good quality oil base paint to "seal
    it".
    
    My question is:  THIS MUST HAPPEN ALL THE TIME!  HELP!!!!
    
    What is the accepted method of dealing with this?
    
    p.s. Covering the ceiling with sheet rock is not an option for me.
    
    thanks in advance,
    
    ...bill

      Calcimine is a water soluble powder that was supposed to be the
    greatest invention in paint history and it was used for a long time.
    The only problem was it is always water soluble no matter how long
    it has been on a surface. When you want to put paint on a ceiling
    that has calcimine on it you are supposed to wash the calcimine off
    first. To do this all you need is a sponge and a bucket of water.
    I have done this many times, you don't know the wonderful feeling
    of calcimine running down your arm as you are washing it off a ceiling!
    (messy) If you were putting the paint directly over the calcimine your
    next step is try to wash any place that is bare of paint, then paint
    the ceiling with an oil based paint. (oil based paint will not dissolve
    calcimine) If there is already a coat of paint over the calcimine,
    you can wash any spots that may be bare and then paint over all
    of it with an oil based paint. Just remember to NEVER wash the ceiling
    with water unless you want the paint to start peeling off in spots.
    
      yours is a very common occurance, paint over calcimine on older
    houses. The trick is to never get the ceiling wet, that includes
    Latex paint.
    					Kenny
     

    I'd say it's a good thing you didn't wait until this Spring!  
    
    Talk about damp!
    

      Calcimine was CEILING paint ~1930-~1960
    
    					Kenny

After some delay I'll be applying the finish next weekend.

	How is linseed oil applied, do you use a rag or brush?

	Do you wipe off the excess?

	Should it be thinned before application?

	How long does it take to dry?

	The finish is going to be applied in the porch which is esentially
        outdoors.  Is there a problem with it drying if the temperature gets
	to low?

	As you can probably tell my experience with linseed oil is pretty much
	nonexistant.

Thanks for the help

george

      You can apply Linseed oil with a brush, roller or spray (for your
    application). If the wood is bare you should probably apply 2 coats.
    If you do put on 2 coats then you should thin the first coat ~15%
    with paint thinner to allow better penetration. Then wait about
    a week (perfect for one coat each weekend) and apply the second
    coat without thinning. Just one thing; make SURE you use BOILED
    Linseed oil. The alternative, Raw Linseed oil, won't dry. Raw Linseed
    oil is made to used in paint where special dryers are added.
      As for how much to apply; if the wood is bare you want to really
    apply it liberally. It should really soak in so you'll use a lot.
    You shouldn't have to wipe it off. You should treat Linseed oil
    as if it were paint. The second coat you should just paint on,
    you'll notice it won't sink in much and it will take longer to dry.
    
    					Kenny 

How long should it take to dry?  Is there a minimum temperature or weather 
condition where I shouldn't apply it.  I'm thinking of possible problems if
the temperature drops too low at night or applying on damp, rainy days.

George

    I _know_ this is a "stupid" question, but -
    
    	When applying that finish to a porch/deck, should the bottoms
    	be coated as well ?  Ya see, I HATE spiders and webs too close
    	to me, and getting under the deck means getting intimate with
    	spiders.  And I will not destroy the benign, beneficial little
    	suckers unless they get too close (or my wife makes me).
    
    Dwight 

      Yes, the bottom should definately be done if it's possible for
    water to get to it by coming through spaces between the boards etc.
    As for actually doing it; it is very difficult to paint (figuratively)
    the joists etc. because of all the angles, nooks and crannies. Use a
    hand-held airless spray gun for doing under a deck and always work
    backwards so you're not in your own spray!
    
    					Kenny

    This conference is getting so unwieldy that I'm not sure if this
    has been covered...
    
    Doesn't coating a peice of wood completely cause it to be more likely
    to rot due to the moisture being trapped inside?
    
    -joet

RE .9

>> It isn't water proof, see current, just out issue of Fine Woodworking.


	Ok.  I just finished reading the article and linseed oil does not 
protect against water vapor.  In fact l.o. can actually absorp more water
vapor.  According to FWW to get the best protection you have to coat ALL 
sides of the wood - both faces and end grain.  Otherwise, with only some 
of the faces sealed, the wood will have a tendency to warp even more than 
with no finish because of the uneven absoption or loss of water vapor.  
Coating all sides of the wood is imposible (I'm not about to take down 
400 ft of ship lap pine to coat both sides) so it seems that at this point 
I should be more concerned with protecting the wood against absorption of 
liquid water i.e. rain and let the wood "breathe" normally.  It seems that
is what linseed oil will do and hence would be a good finish for this 
application.  Any comments?

It's an interesting article.  It dispels some common misconceptions about 
various finishes.

George

    	It's time to paint my house. Seeing that I hate painting houses
    and the fact that were going to remodel the whole house in two years
    but can't leave the house looking the way it is untill then, I am
    considering using a power painter. I have heard pros and cons on
    this but I want opinions from someone who's done it. I have heard
    that you have to thin the paint and that you don't get a good covereage
    but I've heard that it takes a quarter of the time it would take
    to brush paint the house.
    	Any help with this will be appreciated.
    
    						Mike O'Brien

    A friend and I used wagner power painters to throw the stain on
    the house and then used wide brushes to smoothe the stain (get rid
    of drips/runs/...). I have a small Cape with ceader shingles and
    we finished it all in about 10 hours.  That is ALOT faster then
    using just brushes!
    
    We did have to thin the stain. We picked up the thinner at the paint
    store and just mixed it in.  Real simple, real fast.
    
    
    dc

    
    	I painted my mom's house with a taylor rent all sprayer about
    two years ago with great success.  The toughest part was taping
    up all the windows and trim.  The first day we used the sprayer
    to clean the house and taped up the trim.  The painting only took
    two days.  It gets interesting when you get near the roof.  We had
    one person with the sprayer (me) and one person with a piece of
    cardboard acting as the edger.  The idea was to paint near the roof
    with the excess going on the cardboard (and the person holding the
    cardboard!).  When I paint my house I'll rent a sprayer again.
    	The sprayer uses about 25% more paint than a brush, but with
    the time I save I think it was worth it.
    					=Ralph=
    
    	(by the way the house I painted was a small ranch)
                                                          

 
  Thanks for the info, folks.  My neighbor has decided to go with a
  Minwax stain and a second coat of sealer.

  Jim, the information about allowing the oils to "dry out" for a few
  months came from the CWF brochure.  This approach doesn't seem
  completely off-the-wall but I do see your point...
  
  JP

    I need to paint an exterior cement wall--- black---and, I need a
    recommendation about what kind of cement paint, or whatever, to
    use.  The wall, actually a poured cement porch, has exposures
    to all points of the compass except West.  The largest exposure
    is east.

    
    	You can use a good exterior (preferrably oil based) house paint
    but better than that, try to get a good brand of floor paint.  Some-
    thing that is made to be walked and traveled on.  These are usually
    specifically designed for concrete floors.  Since you won't be walk-
    ing on your walls (I hope) it will hold up very well.  The only
    thing you will want to be concerned with is the lime content of
    the concrete.  If it is an old wall, no problem.  With new ones
    though you might get some peeling after a while, but there's noth-
    ing you can do about it (also moisture evaporation).
    
    	My recommendation is KYANIZE floor and deck paint.

    Any more thoughts about this?  I'm considering doing this too.
    Is a Wagner Power Painter the proper tool, or just a toy?
    Trim is the same color as the house, so only windows would need
    taping.
    
    I've tried a brush, and have had trouble covering in one coat
    (I'm using dark gray paint over white (or white primer) --
    would a $20.00 brush fix this (I tried a nylon brush), or should
    I just resign myself to two coats if I brush paint?
    
    				George

    
    I am planning on painting or staining my house, THE PROBLEM is that
    I don't know what's on the house currently. I have asked several
    people and get different asnswers, some say it's a solid stain and
    others say it's paint. I knnow stain is not suppose to peal but
    in the rear of my house it is. The front of the house looks like
    stain, there's no peeling. I have also been told that it is stain
    but when it was applied the siding which in pine was cured or whatever
    yet. Can anyone please suggest something so I can get a definite
    answer? I would like to restain the house if it's stain and I guess
    I have no choice to paint it if it's paint. Thanks......
    

I like the previous idea of using the sprayer to spread out the paint but
still use a brush. I simply can't imagine an adequate job done by spayer alone
(unless you're staining).  Then again, if you don't mind re-staining every few
years or looking at pealing paint, go for it...

-mark

Solid stain's DO peal!  I'm still not sure myself what the exact difference
is.  Anyhow, if you can find something removeable with the paint/stain on it
(shutter, window, flower box, etc...), take it to ANY paint store and they
should be able to tell.

I had done this with a scrap of moulding from my house and the guy at the store
applied some benzene with a Q-Tip and proceeded to rub some color off.  He then
declared it was stain.

-mark

    I have Moore's Solid Stain on a picnic table which is peeling. 
    I remember that when I stained it, the picnic table wasn't completely
    dry from the previous rain.
    

     I remember reading somewhere that one difference between solid color
    stain and paint is that the stain can contain both a wood preservative and
    a water repellent, whereas the paint generally does not. Sounds good
    to me...

     The solid color stain on my house, looks, feels and is peeling just
    like paint.

    - mike g.

    Cabot's makes a stain which can be used over paint. It's called
    O.V.T.   I'm using it now, covering over whatever paint is left
    on my house after scraping. If you scrape well, and make sure that
    there's no mildew or dirt on the house, it's supposed to work very
    well.  
    	A friend of mine used it 2 years ago, and it's still holding
    up well.... time will tell how well it'll work for me......
    
    \ske
    

      The Wagner power painter which has the container that holds
    ~ 1 quart of paint is lost when painting an entire house. It is
    VERY usefull for painting shutters and fences ect. I beleive you
    could rent a professional-type airless sprayer for less and it would
    do a better and much faster job.
    
      As far as quality of the paint job when useing an airless gun.
    There is absolutely no difference in longevity between a properly
    applied spray or brush job. However when using stain it is usually
    nessesary to brush out the stain after it is applied in order to
    make it even. When spraying paint, there is no need to brush over
    it as long as the paint isn't sprayed on to thinly or thickly.
    
    					Kenny

      re.4 Cabot's OVT is excellent for use over stain or paint and
    you should be happy with the performance.
    
      Solid stain is really no different than paint as these previous
    repliers can attest. The only stain that won't peel is transparent
    or semi-transparent.
    
      For anyone who has bought solid stain that is just the right color
    but hasn't applied it yet. You can turn it into a semi-transparent
    stain easily. Just buy yourself some linseed oil and some paint
    thinner. Add 1 pint of each to each gallon of stain. The color will be
    the same(just a little more see-through) you'll have more stain for
    your money, and it will be much less likely that it will ever peel.
    And linseed oil is known as one of the best exterior wood protectors.
    Of course don't do this with any latex stain.
    
    					Kenny

    I am having my house stained with Olympic 712 Oxford Brown
    semi-transparent, over rough red cedar clapboards. This is the same
    stain that was used (before I owned the house) about 3 years or
    less ago, although at that time it was sprayed on. Now it is being
    brushed in.
    
    The sun and overgrown shrubs have taken their toll on the siding,
    leaving light streaks. The wood is very dry.
    
    The painters finished one side and it is greatly improved. However,
    I can still see a difference in shade between where the light streaks
    were and where they weren't. I immediately blamed the painters for
    either not applying the stain heavily enough, or for not shaking
    and mixing the stain properly. 
    
    I diplomatically suggested that they might look into their techniques
    in these areas (I really was diplomatic!), and they gave me the reason
    I expected to hear: that the semi-transparent stain really does
    not have enough hiding power to completely cover the light streaks.

    What do you think? Should a semi-transparent stain leave a nice
    smooth finish, or is it natural to expect some unevenness?
    
    I had the trim done in the same color but solid stain. Now I am
    wondering if I should have just done the whole house in the solid
    stain.
    
    Marty

    	Semi-transparent is just that! Partly transparent. It is ment
    to allow the wood grain to show through. If you have light and dark
    spots they will show through.
    	If you have the time to experiment. I've had some luck with
    mixing my own semi_transparent stain using solid stain & linseed
    oil. I made up a couple of test mixes to find the color that covered
    enough and used this as the base mix. I also saved a darker and
    lighter mix for use in those areas that needed a little more or less.
    If your going to mix your own, make accurate measurements and make
    up an extra gallon for future use.
    
    				...Dave
    

>    What do you think? Should a semi-transparent stain leave a nice
>    smooth finish, or is it natural to expect some unevenness?
    
	When we stained our house (which *badly* needed it), we tested
	semi-transparant stain, but it didn't seem to cover well.  It
	really soaked in.  Then we tried Cabot semi-solid and that covered 
	pretty good.  For our trim we also used solid stain.  

     Did you know there was that "intermediate" semi-solid stain?  Perhaps
     you should try that?  

	-- Jim

    I think I will go with a second coat, this time using the solid
    stain. That should cover real well.
    

    When you put on a solid stain you'll lose all of the wood grain
    it will go on like paint, but will be oil base. Obviously it will
    protect the wood better than paint but will look almost identical.
    
    As far as semi-transparent/semi-solid, I was told they were the
    same.   there was clear, semi-solid and solid, all three being stains.
    
    If I had red cedar, I think I would stick with the semi-solid,
    the wood is too beautiful to cover up.
    
    Fra
    

    The house has had two coats. (It's nine years old.) I am thinking
    that the first coat was solid and brushed in well. The second coat
    was as I said sprayed on and was semi. I think the light spots where
    the sun baked it off are mostly where the sun baked off the semi,
    and the dark spots are where there is most of the original solid.
    
    When I brush over the current coat with another coat of semi, there
    still doesn't seem to be the evenness that I am looking for. So that is
    what makes me think that I should just cover with the solid--to
    get the whole house looking even. 
    
    I agree that the wood is beautiful, which is why I don't understand
    why the original owner didn't use a light stain. But since the house
    is already dark I guess I'll go all the way and make it look uniform.
    
    Marty

    A friend of mine just built (still is building) his house, he was
    originally going to use cedar siding but went with redwood (price
    and looks).  His reason for not going with the cedar was that it
    was really streaky looking,  lots of white wood with dark streaks
    here and there. Not sure if this is what you are refering to....
    
    When someone has put on a solid stain you'll know it, my guess is
    that the original owner used a semi solid and what your seeing is
    the streaks in the wood...  could be wrong but this is my guess.
    
    Fra

    When staining (especially with a transparent or semi-transparent) you
    have to be very carefull to avoid over laps during the application.
    Other wise you get areas with two coats that look darker than the
    other sections. The proper way to brush stain on is to only do a
    couple of boards at a time from one corner to the next (assuming
    horizontal siding). This makes for a lot of ladder moving, but this
    is the proper way. Spraying it on gets even trickier.
    
    Charly 

    I had the solid put on as a second coat and that really did the
    job. It covered very nicely and sank into the wood beautifully.
    
    You can still see the grain of the wood (especially since it is
    rough cut), so I don't understand why some people say that solid
    stain is like paint. I will say, however, that "deck stain" covers
    very much like paint. This stuff is really thick and water will
    bead up on it like on a freshly-waxed car.
    
    Now I know what to use next time.
    
    Marty

    On the same subject - how well do solid stains cover what's under
    them?  My house is stained (semi-transparent) kind of a dark brown
    (not real dark, and it's been lightening as it weathers).  My wife
    brought up the idea of staining it cream-color.  I wouldn't mind
    using a solid stain if it will work, but I won't paint it, so please
    don't suggest that.
    
    Ideas?

    Plan on using 2 coats of the solid stain.

    	I stained my house two years ago.  The original stain was solid
    and gold colored.  I covered in one coat with Benjamin Moore Rustic
    Brown but put on two coats at the suggestion of a painter.  (He
    claimed I wouldn't have to paint again for ten years - time will
    tell!)
    
    	Experience with the solid stain I used has been very positive.
     There is so much pigment in it I have been able to use it to cover
    metal (both aluminum and sheet metal) with no problems.  I even
    used it to 'stain' newly installed gutters!
    
    Douglas

    I just build 16 wooden shutters that need to be painted.  I have
    no experience with stain and am wondering if it would be better
    than paint.  Does stain peel?  Do you have to prime?  Is oil better
    than latex?  Are there any drawbacks?  I'd really like to not have
    to scrape these things.
    
    Thanks
    
    George

    
    I would use a solid stain. However, with new wood you will get
    some bleed through of knots if you don't prime them first. 
    
    Stains usually fade with age. They usually do not peel.  The only
    flaking/peeling I've ever seen on a stained surface is over the
    knots in the wood. 
    
    On new wood, I would highly recommend priming the knots with a
    sealer  (Bin??, Zim??) and then using an Oil stain. (I like the
    solid)
    
    Next time you go to paint you will not have to scrape.
    

    
    Just got a flyer saying that SHERWIN WILLIAMS solid is on sale 
    for $10.88 reg $18.88.  Two dollars less than what I paid for 
    it one month ago.

    Anyone have any experience with Sherwin Willimas' stain?

  As usual, my neighbor's decision about the color of his house changed
  several times since I posted .5.  The final decision is to go with CWF.

  In the months since the siding was put on, it has "cured" a bit and the
  nails (even though galvanized) stained the surrounding wood.  We tried a
  product called Dekswood and it really did a nice job.  Not only did it
  bleach out the nail stains, it also made the bottom three clapboards
  (which had become a lot more weathered than the other clapboards due to
  backsplash) match the rest of the house. 

  Dekswood is pretty easy to use.  You mix it with 4 parts water, paint it
  on, scrub just a bit, let it stand 15 minutes, then hose it off.  They
  suggest using it full-strength for tough stains and that's what we had
  do do for the nail stains.

  Alas, you're supposed to let the siding dry out for at least two days
  before you can start painting/staining/CWFing.  We used Dekswood on
  Saturday and planned to put on the CWF this evening.  So I guess we
  are responsible for the deluge here in New Hampshire this morning...
  I hope we can get the finish on before the wood starts to weather all
  over again.

  JP

    A word of caution when using semi-transparent over red cedar. Red cedar
    tends to bleed thru semi-transparent stain and is not recommended.
     My home is three years old, I just bought it.  It was originally
    sprayed with semi and looks like hell (copies blothes).  I called 
    the Olympic paint representative (after calling the previous owners
    find out what they used).
    The rep recommended using a sold stain over red cedar clapboards
    for the reson stated above.  I hope he's right, I'll be starting
    in a few weeks.
                             
    Steve
    

 		     -<	Looking for comments on CWF >-

	I will soon be installing red cedar clapboards - decided to go with 
the rustic (B) grade and now deciding what to use for the finish.

	I've been thinking about using a clear preservitive called CWF (put 
out by the Flood Comp.). 

	They say that it's supposed to be better than your Olympic, Cuprinol,
Cabbot clear stains- where by using these the wood will still turn gray 
but with the CWF it should hold it's original color.

	I've seen a house that has just been done using CWF and it looks great
now, but how will it look in two or three years?


	Does anyone have any experience with this product ?

        Are you satisified with the results?

    
    							rjr

Well, in two years it still looks great, but it's going to need another coat 
next summer.

That's the problem with clear finishes, you need to redo them every couple of 
years, although they take much less time to apply than paint.

Paul

  See also 1028.*

  JP

I'm in the process of building some eaves, rake boards and the boards that cover
the corners of the house (can't remember what they're called but I'm sure 
someone will remind me).  Anyhow, rather than use clear pine I want to simply
use some of the stuff from the local saw mill which I guess would be rated as
#2.

Question - what is the best way to deal with the knot holes?  I know if you're
going to paint you simply seal them.  However, I'm going to put on a heavy stain
(Cabot OVT) and don't want unsightly scars showing though.  I called the stain
store and was told a washing with alcohol or TSP would help but wouldn't solve
the problem.  Keep in mind I'm not talking mega-knots (I don't plan on using
pieces where there are actually hard, dard knots, but rather just the parts 
where there is evidence of a start of a knot - I'm sure that made total sense).

I was wondering if anyone had any experience here.  One obvious solution would
be to use clear pine, but that just seems like a waste of money.  Has anyone
else had to deal with this?  What do builders do?

-mark

    You might try what should be done when painting over knotholes,
    and that is to put shellac over the knothole.  Many so-called
    professionals don't do this and a year after they've done the work,
    you see yellow or light brown stains showing through.
    
    However, if the stain is going to be the same color as the knothole,
    why bother?

the reason you DON'T put shellac over a know hole is because the stain seals it,
thereby preventing the stain from doing its thing.  however, I did take a closer
look at my siding and it too has knots.  However they don't look all that bad so
I guess I'll just go with the #2 stuff after all.

-mark

    Yesterday I decided it was time to paint my shed. It is covered with
    T1-11 siding so I figured a brush wouldn't work too well and I tried
    using a roller with latex paint. The siding absorbed the paint like a
    sponge. At the rate I was using paint I figured the shed would take
    more paint than my house did! 
    
    What am I doing wrong? Should I be using stain instead of paint?
    Or is the method of application wrong, should I try spraying it
    on instead.
    
    - Rich
    

    A primer coat is probably desirable on unpainted wood.  Now that
    you've already coated with latex I think you should stay with that
    and consider the first coat the primer.  I wouldn't use a roller
    on wood because it won't coat as well....that is a brush or pad
    does a much better job of getting the paint *INTO* the wood.  Paint
    or stain applied with roller or especially sprayers will not last
    as long, will tend to peel, etc alot sooner than paint applied with
    a brush or pad.  You will probably find that professional painters
    prefer brush although it is alot more work to apply.  
    
    I stained some very rough barnboard with a large pad and was very
    pleased with the results.

     Three pieces of advice for T-111:

     Spray, spray, spray.

     You'll use less stain/paint, spend a fraction of the time
     at it, and get better coverage.

     -gary

    Re .0
    Just saw your note today. Funny coincidence, but Sunday was just
    the right day for it so I finished painting my new shed also. The
    first two sides I stained with opaque oil stain using a 5" brush
    and it was really tough getting all of the grooves and texture covered.
    Used lots of stain also. That was a couple of weeks ago. This weekend
    I sprayed the last two sides. It went quite a bit faster and was
    much easier to cover the grooves and it used MUCH less stain.
    HOWEVER...the instructions recommend that you should BRUSH over
    the freshly sprayed stain to work it into the surface. I used a
    stiff bristled scrubbing brush on the wood BEFORE spraying but didn't
    work the stain into the wood too much after spraying. After a few
    days, the results are in. On the sprayed sides, all you have to
    do is rub the wall with your hand to see flakes of the textured
    wood come off, revealing bright "white" spots under the 'redwood'.
    On the brushed sides, I can scrub the wall with a bristle brush
    and the finish still remains intact. I will probably rework the
    sprayed sides next Spring, after some more of the loose flakes wear
    off.  At least, the whole shed is now presentable and isn't an eyesore.
    (For subsequent staining, I will probably use the spray, since the
    first coat is already on and acting as a primer.)
    
    Dave
    
    P.S. If you spray, they recommend that you work in the direction
         of the siding grooves, and do the full length of the board
         before going on to the next board. Also, try to hit the grooves
         in two passes, one from each side to get total coverage inside
         the groove.

    
    
    		HELP....PAINTING STUCCO
    
    I am in the planning stages to paint my house.  It is a stucco
    house with the top half vinyl siding.  Are there any special
    preperations that need to be taken before I attempt to start painting?
    I am considering Sears Weatherbeater Exterior paint.  It is recommended
    for masonary, brick and stucco.  Any others I should consider? 
    What are the chances of paint not adhereing to the stucco,  I would
    hate to have to paint twice.  Also, would it be better to use a
    large roller or a wide brush.  I have a week to paint to time isn't
    a big factor.   
    
    any comments would be appreciated.
    
    
    DAN  232-2622    SIOUXI::STEWART
    

    We just bought a house with a paneled basement family room. The
    paneling is very dark and we'd like to paint it white. Can this
    be done? Does paneling require a special type of paint?
    
    Also, the backyard is enclosed with a wood stockade fence. The wood
    has never been painted or stained. Can we just throw up some Cuprinol
    or are there any special considerations we should be aware of? Is
    fencing wood normally pressure treated?
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    You can definitely paint over paneling.  Preparation is the key:
      -Make sure its clean-wash with TSP
      -A light sanding (scuffing) if it has a varnished surface
      -Use a good latex undercoater (primer)
    
    I did my basement paneling and it was well worth the effort.
    
    The fence could be either pressure treated or cedar.  Either can
    be stained or painted (new pressure treated wood needs to dry out).
    Staining or painting PT or Cedar is done only for cosmetic reasons.
    It won't affect their weather resistance.
    
    Bob

    
       When my sister Painted her stucco house she used a an electric
    sprayer. She said it went on very easily and I can tell you from
    lookeng at the house that the paint has weathered very well for
    five years now. I don't know how long it took her to do the job,
    but sprayers are much faster than brushes.
    
                                                John C.
    

    I used BIN as a primer and painted panelling.  It worked fairly
    well, but in the end we pulled it all down and 'fixed' the walls
    underneath.  The problems were: the texture, any seams or nails
    in the panelling, and any 'bumping' scratched right thru.  IF the
    walls underneath are in decent shape, you may be better off removing
    if you are a perfectionist.
    
    ONE CAUTION- if the panelling is attached with adhesive, you will
    have lots of problems - the adhesive will either be above the surface
    and will need to be sanded down or it will pull off some of the
    old paint/plaster and that will need to be filled in.  I had one
    wall that was adhesived and it wasn't fun!
    
    	-Barry-
    

    
    
    			{What type of paint was used}
    
    	What type/brand of paint did she use?  Is there any special
    reason for that one or is it a matter of preference?  I've been
    trying to sample paints by doing small patch test.  That's why I
    have been thinking about the Sears Weatherbeater.  Any comments?
    
    thanks,
    DAN
    

       
    As we all know, surface preparation is a huge part of any painting
    job.  I'll probably be painting our stucco house this summer
    and was wondering if anyone out there has any handy-dandy hints,
    caveats, etc. for prepping the stucco.
    
    Also, I have several long cracks in the stucco (where the wood
    frame of the house meets the fieldstone foundation) and will
    need to patch those.  Any words of wisdom as to cement mixture,
    specialty tools, nifty techniques, etc?
    
    Thanks.  
    
    Sid

    I didn't realize we'd have to go to the trouble of sanding/priming.
    Since one sheet of paneling is half hanging off and would have to
    be renailed, we've decided to pull it all down and paint the sheetrock.
    Unfortunately, the sheetrock has wallpaper over it, so off we go
    to Taylor Rental for a steamer!
    
    Thanks for the insight.
                               
    Mike

    Here's our situation:  We have a bunch of wood trim that has been
    taken down from a room and professionally dipped, to remove lead
    paint.  We now want to paint the trim.
    
    Does it make sense to rent a paint sprayer, wait for a nice day,
    and do this work outside with the sprayer?  We expect to put on
    one coat of oil-based primer, and one coat of semi-gloss latex paint.
    The primer says to allow six hours drying time, so we might be able
    to finish in a day.  Does using a paint sprayer require a lot of
    skill?
    
    Taylor Rental rents their small airless sprayer (one gallon capacity) at
    $34/day, plus $20 cleaning deposit.  Is this a reasonable price?
    
       Gary

I've always been negative about sprayers (and I'm sure I've got at least a note
or 2 in here somewhere on that subject).  Anyhow, every day I drive by a 
neighbors house that sprayed and look at all that peeling paint...

-mark

    Rent a sprayer for $68 (since you're putting on two coats of paint,
    you'd need the sprayer for at least two days) to paint one room's
    worth of trim?  Hardly worth it, I'd say.  Besides, you'd have to
    do the spraying outside, which means you'd have to move the trim
    outside to spray it, then move it in again, etc.  And sprayers are
    a pain to clean.  If you hate washing brushes, you could buy four
    or five cheap ones and throw them away for the cost of the rental
    place's cleaning deposit.  All in all, I personally think it would
    be more work (and more money) to do it with a sprayer.  Oh yeah--
    don't forget the aggravation of driving to pick up the sprayer and
    having to take it back afterwards, too.

    I used a sprayer to paint my outside shutters last year.  I
    wouldn't have done it any other way, since shutters are a pain.
    However, since you have to thin the paint to allow it to be
    sprayed, there is a MUCH greater chance (almost certainty)
    that the paint will weep on the newly painted surface.  For
    trim, I would rather brush.  And the clean-up, as mentioned
    previously, is about 200 times easier with brushes.

    Any other experiences with painted paneling?  Has anyone else out
    there done this or seen it?  If so, how did it look?
    

    We're just about finished with our paneling painting job. We had
    hassles with painting the grooves (even with a roller made for rough
    surfaces, it didn't get into those grooves so we had to use a brush
    which made it very tedious work.) Also, we put down a primer and
    one coat of paint which isn't enough - it really needs a second
    coat (our paneling was very dark - lighter shades might get by with
    one coat.)
    
    All in all, it was no joy to paint but the results were worth the
    effort - the room is so much brighter now.
    
    Mike

    I painted some paneling a couple of years ago and have had only
    one problem, adhesion. Even though I sanded the surface and the
    paint seemed to adhere well going on, 1 primer 2 top, I have gotten
    several places where the paint has scraped off when "bumped" by
    toys. 
    
    If I was doing it over I would probably do two things differently,
    1) use a shellac based primer such as BIN
    2) sand better, or, use one of the liquid sanding products
    
    Alan

    I am considering using CWF to protect my cedar shakes.  I've been
    reading the labels on various clear finishes at the hardware stores.
    Most of the cans list the ingredients as a small percentage of some
    chemical and 'inert ingredients'.  I am assuming that the chemicals
    are the mildew inhibitor and the inert ingredients are linseed oil.
    Is this correct?  
    
    The CWF does not list ingredients, nor are the ingredients listed
    in the glossy brochure.  It does say on the can that it resists
    mildew.  Is there a mildecide in it?  What's the main ingredient?
    
    Steve

    I can't believe this discussion has gotten this far without the
    HOMEWORK POLICE coming in.  My advice:
    
    DO THE RIGHT THING
    
    which, in this case, is take down the disgusting paneling you hate
    so much, and put up sheetrock, which will be much brighter and is
    supposed to be painted.
    
    I was fortunate enough to be able to talk my parents into doing
    the same to their den recently.  It looks like a million bucks.
    
    Elaine
    

    
    .7> DO THE RIGHT THING
    
    .7> which, in this case, is take down the disgusting paneling you hate
    .7> so much, and put up sheetrock, which will be much brighter and is
    .7> supposed to be painted.
    
    I almost jumped in and said the same thing earlier.  I guess I've grown
    accustomed to people doing things like this.  I think this is one of
    those things that normally affects the house value *negatively*.  Ditto
    with painting wall-paper.  Ripping down panelling is really not that
    difficult (besides, demolition can be *fun*).
    
    -tm
    

    My father-in-law got tired of the dark oak (real wood - expensive
    stuff, too!) panelling in his house, and painted over all of it
    - I think it looks very strange, although it is certainly brighter
    than it was, which I think was his goal.  I liked the wood better...

re: .7, .8

I agree with you, but remember that this is a basement room.  Painting it may 
be a reasonable alternative as a stopgap for now.  Unlike painted walllpaper, 
painted paneling is no more difficult to remove than unpainted paneling.

    >Ripping down panelling is really not that difficult 

Sometimes it is, or perhaps I have a problem that you can help me with (it's 
in my parent's house 2000 miles away).  How do you remove paneling when the 
underlying layer is sheetrock and the paneling has been glued to the sheetrock
with panel adhesive?  Can it be done without destroying the sheetrock?  I've 
heard suggestions to use a blowtorch, but that possibility doesn't interest me 
much due to the fire and emissions possibilities.

Clay
    

    It is virtuall impossible to remove paneling from sheet-rock without
    tearing the paper face of the sheet rock. You could put the new
    sheet rock right over the old paneling, just use longer screws.
    
    Alan

    I built a new house and put wood planking in every room including
    the shower stall (it was red cedar).  There is not 1 sq " of sheetrock
    in the house.
    
    I did this to repay the sheetrock industry for the many hours of
    frustration over many jobs of taping and gooping and still having
    the finished job look like shit.

    If you can't DIY it, nuke it.
    
    I recommend everyone tear down your sheetrock and put up real wood
    (not *ugh* panelling).

I borrowed a Wagner 350 power painter from my neighbor.  It has no nozzle 
or atomizer in it; and of course no instructions.  What should I buy for a 
nozzle and atomizer if I'm going to spray exterior latex?  How about oil?
I know paint thickness is important, any suggestions on how to adjust it 
and the gun?

Thanks,
Craig

btw:  i want to paint the lattice which runs around the bottom of my porch.


(also posted in woodworking_and_tools)

    Most hardware stores that sells Wagner sells a paint measuring kit. It's
    a filter that allows the paint to flow if the right amount of dilution
    is there.                        
    
    Sears also sell a repackage wagner under the Craftsman name.
    
    Alternative to the nozzle is the paint pad or roller (less of a
    mess in my opinion).
    
    cal

    i wasted more time trying to get the wagner to work with latex when
    painting my house last year.  i had the paint to the EXACT consistency
    recommended by the kit, and all it did was spew out large droplets
    of paint.  i finally gave up and used a roller.
    
    i gave it one more try on the shutters - still no luck.
    
    if you can't get it to work in a reasonable amount of time then
    give up.  i wasted too much time on it...
    
    for what it's worth, next time i paint my house i'll rent a commercial
    sprayer, the one that comes with 100' of hose and WORKS with latex.
    i've stained with the wagner, but anything heavier is a waste of
    time.
    
    bs

    I have had no trouble using my Wagner with Latex or oil based paints.
    The only problem is the cleanup, which is why I don't use it for
    small jobs.
    
    Alan

>>>>>                  -< You're all wrong... >-

>>>>    I built a new house and put wood planking in every room including
>>>>    the shower stall (it was red cedar).  There is not 1 sq " of sheetrock
>>>>    in the house.
    
	I hope your fire insurance is kept paid_up_to_date!
    

    Before I moved into my current domicile, my current spouse (then, just
    a friend) had cut the top 2/3rds of the panelling off the dining room
    walls, put up wallpaper and a chair rail, then painted the panelling on
    the bottom 1/3rd.  That was over 2 years ago, and it still looks great.
    
    There have been a couple of places where the paint scratched, but
    nothing that putting a china cabinet in front of couldn't cure!!!
    
    Aaron  ;^)

I'm getting ready to finish the exterior doors on my soon-to-be-completed
house. Although this may sound odd, I'd like to use Watco on the exterior
surface. Since it is an interior stain/sealer, I assume it doesn't hold up
to sun, wind, water, (etc.) too well. Is it possible to use it in conjunction
with some exterior varnish or something? (I did get some advice about using
thinned shellac *before* applying the Watco, but that sounds rather strange...)

    If you varnish it, be prepared to sand it all off every year or
    two and do it all over again, especially if the sun hits it.  Just
    ask boat owners about how long varnish stands up in the sun (it
    peels).
    
    Watco is primarily an interior finishing product.  You might call
    the company and see what they say about it's exterior durability.
    
    There are exterior clear wood finishes available. They are penetrating
    sealers as opposed to a varnish.  They don't peel, but do have to
    be renewed periodically.
           
    Bob
    

    .15> If you varnish it, be prepared to sand it all off every year or
    .15> two and do it all over again, especially if the sun hits it.  Just
    .15> ask boat owners about how long varnish stands up in the sun (it
    .15> peels).
    
    I good exterior varnish shouldn't do that.  I have a friend that
    finished an exterior doorway with spar varnish (several coats),
    and after ~4 years it still looks great (like it was done yesterday).
    I think a boat would be exposed to much harsher conditions than
    a house door.
    
    As for the Watco ...
    
    I wouldn't use it on any exterior surface.  
    
    -tm

    re: .16
    Is your friend's door behind a storm door, maybe?  My experience
    with varnish exposed to the weather has been pretty much as in
    .15.  

    
    .17> re: .16
    .17> Is your friend's door behind a storm door, maybe?  My experience
    .17> with varnish exposed to the weather has been pretty much as in
    .17> .15.  
    
    Yes, it's behind a storm door, but I'm sure it takes more abuse
    than most indoor applications.  It probably would not be a good
    idea to use varnish in a situation where the wood is completely
    exposed to the elements.  
          

    I have a Wagner Power Painter and for outside work and shutters
    it is worth the hassle of thinning the paint and cleanup.  For inside
    work, the prep work of taping and covering EVERTYHING that you do
    not wanted painted is too time consuming and effort for me.  I can
    roll a 14x15 room walls only in hour and half with another half hour
    for prep and cleanup.  It took me an hour prep and an hour to paint and
    an hour for cleanup with the sprayer.
    
    I have just repainted my whole house inside and I used a brush
    and roller.  The Wagner Power Painter never crossed my mind as an
    alternative for inside.

    My $.02 worth
    
    Bruce

	I have a camp that is all wood interior (ceilings/walls/doors) and its
	all unfinished pine.  I want to put a coat of poly on it and leave it
	clear.  Can I use a sprayer for this or do I have to brush it all on ?
	Any other alternative finishes to use to utilize the sprayer method ?

	Cha

    Why not a roller?  Personally, I'd never (again) spray paint indoors...
    not after the first time....  An airless spraygun might not be so
    bad, but definitely not an air spraygun.  

    You'll need more than one coat to do a good job on pine.  Use a
    thinned first coat to seal the wood, then follow with a full strength
    coat.  As mentioned, a roller will be better than spraying.
    
    Bob

	I have an airless spray gun that does a pretty good job.  I never
	rolled poly before either, how does it come out ?  I just got thru
	staining the exterior and am not looking forward to brushing the
	entire interior.  I need an alternative.


	Cha

>	                                                 I just got thru
>	staining the exterior and am not looking forward to brushing the
>	entire interior.  I need an alternative.

Then take the Summer off and rest up.  Go back to the interior when the 
fatigue of doing the exterior is less likely to make you try and cut 
corners.
				>>>==>PStJTT

    In college, I worked as a janitor in a school.  We used to refinish
    the gym floor with varnish applied by a roller.  It worked pretty
    well for a floor (the poly will level itself).  Its dust and air
    bubbles you have to worry about more than what you apply it with.
    
    Bob

	
	Well, after talking with several professional painter types the
	prevailing suggestion is to rent a spray gun (a pro model not a 
	little Wagner or Roto-spray) and cover yourself up, wear a mask, 
	cover up the Windows/Doors, and go to it !  The suggestion is also
	to use flat poly for the general job and later on to brush on a high
	gloss poly on the trim.  Sooooooo..... does anyone know if Spags
	is still selling Poly for 12.95 ?  The local store (Nashua Wallpaper)
	has Minwax Poly for $20.00 a gallon.


	Chuck

    I began painting trim in my dining room with latex paint.  I'm about
    2/3 done but have been told by a number of people that I should
    have painted the woodwork with oil or alkyl paint.
    
    I think it's worth repainting what I've already painted, even tho
    it'll take me quite a bit of time.  Here's my question.  Do I need
    to remove the latex first?  (It's an eggshell finish, Martin Senour
    brand paint)  Will I have problems later, having painted oil over
    latex, over oil (the original paint was oil based).
    
    Do I need to prep the surface I've already painted?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Mike Cooperman
    

>    I began painting trim in my dining room with latex paint.  I'm about
>    2/3 done but have been told by a number of people that I should
>    have painted the woodwork with oil or alkyl paint.

I don't know why. The trim is usually done in a semi-gloss because its 
more durable and appropriate, but there is no reason to specifically 
use oil.  Oil is, in general, more durable than latex. But its also 
harder to work with, etc., You should probably choose one or the other 
and stick with it.  Even in a oil, you will probably want ao gloss for 
the walls, and a semi-gloss for the trim.

>    Here's my question.  Do I need
>    to remove the latex first?  (It's an eggshell finish, Martin Senour
>    brand paint)  Will I have problems later, having painted oil over
>    latex, over oil (the original paint was oil based).
    
You can paint oil over anything, including latex.  Latex over oil is 
bad news, I'm told it won't adhere properly.  Sounds like you need to 
strip the latex and start again (Sigh).

    Don't bother repainting.  Keep using the latex.  My personal approach
    is to use oil outside and latex inside.  I can't think of any reason
    to use oil paint inside, except maybe in the bathroom.  Even there
    I'm not sure it's necessary.  I think oil does better outside, but
    it's exposed to heat, cold, snow, rain, wind, dust, etc. and I think
    oil weathers better than latex.  You don't have to worry about that
    indoors.  The paint on your dining room trim is just going to sit
    there.
    
    As suggested in the previous note, a semi-gloss paint is good for
    trim because it's easier to wash and a bit more durable than flat
    (maybe).  And use a good paint.  You should do fine.
    

Besides, even if oil is slightly better than latex for this job, it certainly 
isn't enough better to warrant stripping off the brand-new latex and repainting 
with oil.

Paul

Besides, there isn't much that's worth the horrible smell and 
lousy clean up.


re .1   We also use Semi-gloss for the trim.  We've never used 
gloss for the walls though, we use Eggshell.

    
    I wouldn't bother repainting, but I would use oil-based semigloss
    or gloss for woodwork in the future.  I just painted a bathroom
    with oil-based semigloss (Benjamin Moore interior).  I used a
    china bristle brush and the paint flowed well.  The smell was less
    than a lot of latex I've used.  BTW, use odorless paint thinner to
    clean brushes! I personally prefer brushes (much less mess), but
    don't use them if you are the impatient type.
    
    -tm 

    Thanks for all your comments.
    
    I called the paint dealer I bought the paint from (Waltham Wallpaper
    and Paint) and he told me that latex is fine for interior but that
    it takes longer to cure - several weeks instead of a couple days.
    
    He told me that I should just finish the room and it'll be fine.
    
    I painted trim in another room with oil or alkyd paint and much
    prefer the finish, tho the smoothness may be due more to the gloss
    or semi-gloss than to the type of paint.
    
    Also, I put the brush into paint thinner overnight and was able
    to use it again the next day or a couple days later without having
    it harden, which was my concern when I started.  I like using brushes
    but don't enjoy cleaning them.

    What's the latest thought on painting pressure-treated lumber? 
    I just finished a side-porch on my house, and I pretty sure I want
    to paint at least parts of it to match the house.  I've read entries
    in this notes file concerning staining (i.e. wait 6 months to a
    year to stain or the stain won't "take" to the wood), but haven't
    really found much about painting p.t. lumber.  
    
    Is there any special kind of paint or primer I should be using when 
    I get around to doing it?
    
                            Thanks,
                            Scott

    Be forewarned that southern yellow pine (which most PT is) does
    not take paint very well or for very long.  If you still want to
    paint, wait at least 3 months (6 would be better), use an alkyd
    primer followed by two coats of whatever paint matches your house.
    
    In 3 or 4 years you can then scrape it and do it again! 8^)
    
    Bob

    Olympic says their stain can be used over new pressure treated
    wood. I would assume you could get a solid stain mixed to match
    the color of your house. I just finished painting a new deck with
    a product called Seasonite. It is clear with the consistency of
    water. It is supposed to minimize checking, cupping etc. It is 
    inexpensive and if it doesn't work, no loss. When I was looking,
    these were the only two products that said they could be applied
    over new wood.
    
    Only time will tell
    Dennis

    Most of the replies here seem to do with airless guns.  I've got
    access to a compressor and spray rig and wonder about using it to
    paint my (big) house with latex.
    
    I've shot quite a few cars, but never with house paint...
    

    The better spray guns have heavy paint nozzels available, but most
    cheap guns don't.  (ie: DeVilbis, Binks).  I wouldn't even begin
    to try it unless you can find a heavy paint nozzel, needle and spray
    head. (which will cost a nice chunk of change)
    
    Two other problems.  First, you've got to thin the paint a whole
    lot to push it through the gun.  That'll make the paint so thin
    that the coverage isn't all that great.  Second, the cups on a normal
    spray gun are so damned small that you'll be changing them forever.
    I know that Binks makes a pressurized outfit that straps onto a
    gallon or 5-gallon paint bucket, has a hose coming out the other
    end that attaches to the Binks gun, but I'll be willing to bet that
    it's pretty expensive.
    
    All in all, I don't think I'd spray my house.  A good brush and
    roller (yes, even on clapboards and shingles) will do the trick
    much better.
    
    
    -bill

    
    I called around some spray gun distributors, and got a lot of catalogs.
    You can spray paint almost any viscosity material if you have a
    pressure feed cup. It is possible to get a 2 Qt pressure feed cup,
    I think the price list said about $100. A gun with the right nozzle
    goes for about the same. I will look up the catalogs when I get
    home and post more info.  I also called a rep at one of the
    distributors and he even offered to deliver the gun to me.. talk
    about service..
    
    Later,
    
    gjd
    

    Update on Air spray gun info:
    
    Jeffco,  Inc.,  East  Windsor,  CT  (203)-627-0167  sent  me  DeVilbiss
    catalogs and a price list.  A less expensive gun listed (Model JGA 502)
    capable  of  of spraying "Heavy materials..  House paints..  Latex base
    paints.." when  equipped  with  pressure  feed  lists  for $129.  A 2 Qt
    pressure feed cup lists for $168.
    
    As far as I  can tell from the catalog, this price includes your choice
    of Air Cap,  fluid  tip  and  gasket, and fluid needle.  You choose the
    right combination from the  catalog,  based  on  the speed at which you
    wish to apply the material.
    
    The thickest material that can  be  sprayed by air guns with a pressure
    feed  cup in this catalog is  "Mastic  and  heavy  asphalt  materials..
    under body coatings..  roof and foundation coating, aggregate and fiber
    filled.."
    
    The catalogs give very detailed information and  explanations, far more
    information than I can type in here.  I suggest you call Jeffco and ask
    for copies.
    
    The catalogs I have are:
     # 1-2008  "Air spray guns"
     no #      "The ABC's of spray equipment for refinishing"
     # M-64   "Airless and air spray equipment"
     # A-64    "Supplement"
     # 1-536   "User price list spray equipment"
    
    Good luck,
    
    gjd
    

      A  few  years  ago I lived in a concominium.  We had some exterior
      spray painting done.  It was cheaper than brushing, but we  didn't
      like the results.  The next painting we contracted specified brush
      application. 
      
      Undoubtedly,   part   of   the  difference  was  the  qualitiy  of
      workmanship provided by the different contractors.  I suspect that
      spray  painting can be done better than what we experienced, but I
      also believe that brushing tends to get (force?)  the  paint  into
      all  the  cracks/crevices/grain of the siding and trim, which adds
      up to a better,  longer  lasting  finish.   So,  I  conclude  that
      brushing is more likely to produce better, longer lasting results.  
      
      Now lets here from all who disagree...

< Note 1079.23 by POOL::HAMMOND "Charlie Hammond -- ZKO3-02/Y05 -- dtn 381-2684" >
                      -< Brushin is Superion to Spraying >-

      
>      Now lets here from all who disagree...

    Spray painting  doesn't  get  the  paint into the wood as well and it
    generally is thinner.    The paint needs to be thinned to come out of
    the sprayer and go on even.  
    
    If the wood is  new (unpainted) then it is highly recomended to use a
    brush and not spray else the wood wouldn't get the right amt of paint
    on it and not be protected as well as it could.
    
    So the answer is Yes I  agree.    You  probibly will notice a sprayed
    paint job will need redoing sooner than a brushed one.
    

    I agree that spraying is far less effective than brushing.  The
    coat doesn't last as long and the finish usually looks dull with
    spray.
    
    As an alternative to brush, however, I have used pads very effectively.
    Pads appear to be just as effective as a brush and for staining
    can be a huge time saver.  Ever try to brush stain into new wood?

    How often do you expect to have to repaint your house if you
    spray-painted it with a latex paint?  How about if you used a brush
    instead?
    
    Just curious; I bought my house ten years ago.  It was built in
    1972 and spray painted with a latex paint by the builder.  The people
    I bought it from had repainted it (brush) with a latex paint sometime
    before I bought it (in 1978).  I repainted it (brush) with latex
    paint in 1983 or 84.  It definitely doesn't need painting again
    yet.  The house next door was spray-painted with a latex paint
    whichever year I brush-painted my house (83 or 84) and has been
    done again since then.  So, it looks to me like brushing the paint
    on instead of spraying it lasts quite a bit longer.

    what about a brush coat of primer, then first coat sprayed on then
    a second coat brushed on. I plan on using oil based paint. on cedar
    shakes.
    I'm figuring that the first coat shouldn't have to go on real thick
    hence spraying.
    paul

< re: .27 >

    The better  the paint is applied the longer between coats! 
    
    The time between  repaints  depends  a  lot  on  the house.  ie.  the
    location, the natural protections, the type of siding etc.  
    

      My  observation  is  that  the  paint that hits the house when you
      spray is actually DRYER (thicker, if you prefer)  than  the  paint
      that you brush on. Even though you use a thiner paint (or thin the
      regual paint) to spray, lots of the solvent evaporates in the  air
      and doesn't reach the house.
      
      Now  [part  of] the way that paint works is that the solvent soaks
      into the wood (Yes, this comment applies only to  wood  or  porous
      surfaces)  and this preserves the wood -- keeps it from drying out
      and/or rotting. As the solvent soaks in and drys it also bonds the
      pigment to the surface of the wood, forming a protective barier.

      Neither  the  soaking  in  nor  the forming of a protective barier
      works as well if the paint is too dry -- as it is when spraying.
      
      There are many factors that effect how long a paint job will last.
      They include:  Quality of the paint; quality of  the  application;
      condition  of  th  surface;  the environment its expposed to; wear
      factors, such as people/animals frequently touching/rubbing it.
      
      My house has pine clapboard siding, which is stained, not painted.
      With stain there is relatively more soaking in and less protective
      barier  formed.   For  staining  I  thing that brushing instead of
      spraying is more important than for painting, althoug  I  consider
      brushing better for both.
      
      I  like  the  following "formula" for initial staining, although I
      haven't followed it:  Pre-stain the siding before  its  installed,
      then  give  it a second coat after installation.  The pre-staining
      gets some protection up under the overlap, while the  second  coat
      works  into  the  the  cuts and nail holes, etc.  I believe that a
      third coat should then be applied after one-two years.  After that
      I'd expect to re-do it every 3-5 years.  On our house I've noticed
      that the south side, which gets lots of sun, drys out LOTS  faster
      than  the sheltered, north side.  I'l be (pleasantly) surprised if
      ths south side doesn't need redoing in 3 years.

    
       My deck has been painted with creosote!  Can I paint over 
    it?  It looks and smells like hell!
    
    						John 

    That's bad news stuff.  It's been off the market for a while because
    it's a very hazardous material.  The framework of my porch (underside)
    is coated with creosote and I haven't had much success covering
    it.  Oil base exterior primer didn't work, and neither did solid
    color stain.  I think your only option (and mine) is to replace
    it.                                 
    
    Bob

    
    	My experience is limited to the following:-
    
    a)	Brush painted a very small house in England, just before I sold
    it so I've no idea how well it lasted.
    
    b)	Brush painted a 48 ft split entry, this was VERY TIRING, I swore
    I'd never do it again.
    
    c)	Helped to spray a very large new house using a compressor, 2
    qts of paint at arms length gets heavy real quick.  I swore I wouldn't
    do THAT again unless I at least had a remote paint tank.

    d)	Just got through painting a large ranch with an airless sprayer,
    decided thats the way to go.  I used oil based for the house and
    masked with a couple of 2 ft long strips of aluminum flashing that
    I had nailed to lengths of 1 x 3, just held it against the window
    edge with the nominally free hand.  The deck was done with floor/deck
    enamel, some kind of poly_multi_syllabic_schtuff that didn't need
    thinning, came out great.
    
    	I don't remember the previous replies about comparative durability,
    but paint isn't THAT expensive and I'd MUCH rather spray every say
    6 or 7 years than brush every 10 or 12.  I covered that ranch in
    less than 4 hours (5 gallons) and most of that time was spent moving
    the rig and power cords around.  The nooks and crannies take the
    time with a brush and there are places where a sprayer just puts
    more paint on/in.  Anyone like scrubbing paint into the grooves
    of T-111 for example ?, or up under the eaves ?, or doing shutters ?,
    or details under decks and porches ?, neither do I.

    	Reg
    

    re .30
    
    Anybody else out there get 10-12 years out of a paint job?  8 years
    seem to be the limit in New England.
    
    Bob
    

    
    When you folks are talking about spraying, can you define the term
    better?  If I were to spray a house, I would not thin the paint,
    I would buy a paint tank (about 100$ from sears) and put the paint
    under pressure.  Doing this you can then adjust the amount of air
    you then use to spread the paint, not mix into the paint.  If you
    wanted you could turn the air off and shoot the paint at a steady
    stream for about fifty feet.  I don't understand how you can say
    that the paint will dry any more than if you put it on with a brush.
    
    With the proper equipment you wouldn't have to use a lot of air
    to spread the paint.  It would be quite similar to using an air-less
    sprayer except you use the air to spread the paint, not a mechanical
    nipple.
    
    						.dave.
    
    

    A definite NO NO..................
    
    Creosote is carcinogenic ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! 
    
    Tear down the deck ASAP and rebuild........

    I don't think there's any need to tear down the deck, but forget
    any chance of painting it....
    
    				Steve

    Have you considered adding a 'second surface' to it? In other words
    nail some spacers on 16" centers and then lay a new pressure treated
    5/4" set of planks on top of it. You could even paint it.
    
    
    Mark

	re: .30

	 What brand of airless sprayer did you use/do you have?

    I'd give TSP a try to see if it's possible to scrub off the worst
    of the stuff.  You can get the stuff at a hardware store.  Mix up
    a strong solution using hot water, apply liberally, and scrub with
    a wire brush.  I'm sure it won't remove anything that's penetrated
    into the wood, but it MIGHT remove enough of the surface material
    that you can apply a stain sealer and then paint it.  Just try it
    on a small portion of your deck to see what happens.  But be careful,
    since TSP is a very strong cleaner; wear rubber gloves.

I saw something the other day, I think in True Value's pre-fall sale flyer,
sold as a Creosote remover.  But this may only intended for chimneys, etc,
not sure.

Has anybody ever tried a product put out by Touraine Paints called "Cal-Cover"
or something similar?   Its supposed to be an oil-based product designed
to cover calcimine.

The guy in the paint dept at Spags reccommended the stuff as being good for
coveriing Calcimine paint on ceilings.  He used to sell the stuff somewhere
else, and nobody ever came back with a complaint.

I'm looking for an easier way to deal with calcimined ceilings than scraping
and cleaning the stuff off.

Thanks for any feedback,

Steve

I've used some stuff from Town Paint. I think it is called RTU Coverall.
    It works great and goes on easy. One gallon covers a 10 x 10 ceiling
    with 2 coats. I've used it on 2 ceilings so far and will use it
    on my 3 remaining ceilings. I scraped any loose paint off and then
    put on joint compound. If you put the joint compound on correctly,
    you can keep your sanding to a minimum. Then roll away.

    
    Humm,
    
    When I worked for Sear's, many moons ago, in the paint dept,
    we use to recommend washing the ceiling with something like Mr Clean
    first, rinsing and then painting it over with a good latex paint.
     
    Never had a complaint.
    
    Cal.
    
    

       DON'T DO IT! No matter what it says on the can of paint, you're
    asking for trouble if you paint over calcimine. Maybe it will hold,
    but what about next year, or the year after. You may want to wash
    the walls, or you may need to remove wallpaper (with water), you
    may need to wash the ceiling; or the next coat of paint (esp. if
    latex) may do it. ANY one of these things and probably many more
    can cause your ceiling to peel VERY badly, VERY quickly if you paint
    over calcimine. I have personally removed calcimine from many ceilings,
    it's not hard at all. All it takes is a bucket of warm water + TSP, a
    sponge, and an hour or so of wiping on the water - wiping off the
    calcimine; a little more effort if it's a thick coat. You'll be
    doing yourself and all those who follow you a great favor.
    
    					Kenny

re < Note 1052.7 by DRUID::CHACE >
               -< Painting over calcimine is ALWAYS a bad idea >-

>       DON'T DO IT! No matter what it says on the can of paint, you're
>    asking for trouble if you paint over calcimine. Maybe it will hold,
>    but what about next year, or the year after. You may want to wash

 
                I appreciate the response.

                But-  with a name like Cal-Coter, by a reputable company
              like Tourraine, why is it so hard to believe that a paint
              cannot be developed by chemical engineers that will be able
              to dissolve the calcimine compound??????  

              BTW, I found a place that has the stuff, Morin Supply in Milford,
                   for 14 bucks a gallon, you have to special order it.

                   RTU Coverall is available for 9.99 per.

    
    
    -1
    
    Gerry's Paintland  in Milford might be able to help, and cheaper too.
                                  
    Cal.
    

    
    When I worked at Sear's we use to sell a paint especially to be
    used over Calcimine Ceilings, might want to try there first.
    
    Course this was in 1964..
    
    Cal.
    

    RE: painting Anderson windows -- it can be done, although the way
    their vinyl casements are made, masking them is a royal pain in
    the ass.  I had to do two a couple of years ago -- one a small casement
    and the second a bow window.  They were white, and I painted them
    blue -- to match my trim and the rest of the windows.  I also contacted
    Anderson, and they sent me some literature on repair, and painting
    of their windows.  Although they prefer that you paint the Terratone
    windows, when I sent them a paint swatch, and told them what side
    of the house the windows were on (northeast) they didn't have any
    problems.  You are supposed to go through this procedure to keep
    your sash warranty in effect, if you paint white window units. 
    Perhaps since Anderson gave a "solid no" to painting, to another
    person here, they have realized that the entire world's exterior
    color sheme canot be satisfied with either white or terratone, and
    that the competition will do different colored vinyl by special
    order (Marvin amoung others), and hence adjusted their position.
    
    Anyhow, what I did was first rubbed the sashes with steel wool,
    then used a very good primer (I don't remember the name of it offhand,
    but the stuff will dry almost instantly and will bond to almost
    anything, including glass. I then applied an oil-based enamel, also
    used as a deck paint (it has polyurethane in it).  One bit of advice:
    the window's sashes are really tight, and have *lots* of little
    twists and curves, particularly around the weatherstripping.  You
    are best to just paint the outside of the window, and mask very
    carefully -- clean-up on these casements is quite a job!
    
    As for the intergrity of the finish -- so far, so good.

    re .33	Sorry for the late reply, been busy, as in "Working".
    	Anyway, its a Campbell_Hausfeld (sp ?), I don't remember the
    model number, I don't (yet) have the optional pressure fed roller
    attachment, but will probably get it before I paint with it indoors.
    Its simple, easy to use - etc.  Although it seems to take a long
    time to clean out afterwards and needs a lot of flushing with paint
    thinner to get it really clean inside, its probably still worth setting
    up and cleaning for jobs that take as little as a quart of paint.

    	Reg
    
    	Wanna borrow/rent/use it ?   Wanna rent an expert operator too ?

My house is stained wood shingles with painted wood trim. The company I hired
to stain/paint it was supposed to start 2 weeks ago, but they overbooked
themselves and haven't started yet. My question: when is it too late to start
this year? Don't stains and paints require a certain number of hours over a
certain temperature to cure properly?

    
    
    I am also siding my house with cedar clapboards. I want to clear it
    down before it gets real cold. I will do it here in a weekend or two
    but too much later and I think I am going to be in real trouble. looks
    like I may end up with a naturally gray siding job!
    
    
    chuck

      Most  cans  of  paint/stain  have directions printed on them which
      include the minimum temperature at which the paint/stain should be
      applied.  If yours doesn't check with the paint store.  Then watch
      the weather forcast and follow the directions.

    
    I'm in the process of staining my addition right now.  The instructions
    on the can of stain say not to use below 50 degrees and to stop
    painting/staining 2 hours before expected "dew".  I figured I can
    still stain on the warm days I but the available hours are decreased
    because of the early morning and evening dew.
    
    Kathy

    I have followed the "latest" advice of sealing PT wood ASAP! After
    a significant DIY investment in building a PT tongue&groove board
    fence with a PT framed lattice topper -- (all of which was sealed
    prior to installation), my question is this:  How will stain take
    to the sealed wood, should I wait a length of time before staining,
    and which type would work best, trans,semi,or solid!
    
    Thanks
     Alan
    

>        I have followed the "latest" advice of sealing PT wood ASAP! 
    
    I didn't know that was the latest advice.  Is the idea to seal the
    water in?  If so, for how long?
    
>        How will stain take
>    to the sealed wood, should I wait a length of time before staining,

    I don't know the answer, but if you should wait a length of time
    before staining, what is you'd be waiting for, given that you've
    sealed the wood?

    

Alan,

Most manufacturers are recommending that you wait a minimum of six months,
or until the PT wood begins to silver.

Solid, semi, or trans.  It's up to you.  What are you looking for?  If it's
a painted look, go with the solid.  If it's a tint, use a semi.  I'm assuming
that trans=clear???  If you are using clear, use flood CWF.  It is the 
*very* best!   If you use a solid or semi, use only California storm stain,
I'm sure you will pleased with it's ease in application, color retention, and 
durability.  If you choose a solid, you may want to wait more like a year 
before application
    
    If it's a good stain, they will all work great! although semi and
    trans seem to have better penitration, but with PT, I wouldn't worry
    too much about the fence rotting.
    
Good luck!


Brian
                                     

    to .1:   according to note 511.13 - "PTW / WaterSeal Now or Later?
             and just about every lumberyard & building supply store
             I've been to, the latest reasoning seems to be, apply water
             seal to PTW asap to prevent or slow down shrinkage/checking/
             warping/twisting cause by constant soaking & drying cycle!
             WaterSeal prevents water from soaking in while still allowing
             wood and P-Treatment to age/cure! (used Wolman RainCoat)
    
    to .1    My thought was that I would need to wait some period before
     & .2    applying stain over seal, i.e. give seal some time to cure,
             so that stain would "soak in" and not be "sealed out"!
             FYI - almost all of this wood was KD - dried in garage for
             an additional 30-90 days -- pre-fab'ed in sections -- and
             "sealed" before it ever had to deal with the great outdoors!
        
    to .2:   Thanks for the recommendations! This file is great for getting
             real people perspectives on what works -- what doesn't!

    
    	My experience:  I decided to wait the fabled 6 months before
    staining my deck.  However after about 2 months I noticed the wood
    was starting to check.  I put on an oil base clear Cuprinol stain
    that said on the lable "will protect the wood but allow it to weather
    naturally".  I'd wait a week or so to make sure the wood was dry,
    then protect it with the Cuprinol clear stain.  The wood will weather
    in one season and then you can pick your color.
    

    
    What about wallpapering over panels? Someone told me that there
    is something that I can buy to put over the panels horizontally
    and it's thick enuf so that it will hide the grooves and then I
    can wallpaper vertically.  Anyone know of this? any experience?
    I'm too lazy to do sanding plus BIN is very expensive.
    
    Regarding tearing down the panel, my problem is I don't know what's
    underneath! It's either sheetrock or I think maybe just the frame
    itself, is that possible? Also, I think its glused on since I can't
    seem to see and nails and such.  Also another problem I have is
    that the panelling above the fireplace (1/2 of wall, bottom half
    all brick) is done at an angle.  I think the reason maybe that there
    is nothing to glue the panel onto, therefore they did it at an angle
    to just hold the top and bottom? Any suggestion/help greatly
    appreciated.  I've alrady painted all the trims and anything that's
    not panels in that room to white to try to brighten it up!
    Thanks!

    I wallpapered over paneling for the very reason you stated; I had
    no idea what was behind the paneling. Nor did I care to rip my walls
    apart.
    
    I started by filling all the grooves with joint compound, then sanding
    the entire panel to (a) level and smooth the compound and (b) give
    the paper a surface it could stick to easier. I used the "self sticking
    paper" that you just wet and apply.
    
    Four years later I've exactly ZERO problems with the installation.
    
    Edd

    When paneling is installed over sheetrock, it "feels" much more
    rigid than panelling on studs alone. If the panelling between the
    studs (usually 16" oc) feels as solid as a normal sheetrock wall,
    then there is probably sheetrock under there, but if it noticably
    flexes, its probably on studs alone.
    
    Eric

    
    	Yes, there is a covering that will allow you to wallpaper over
    	paneling.  Any reputable wallpaper dealer will know what you're
    	talking about.  I forget the name of it, but it comes in rolls
    	and is put on with an adhesive.  If I remember correctly, it
    	cost as much as the wallpaper I had put up, but believe me it
    	was worth the added cost.  I can challenge any normal person
    	(that leaves out most of the enet community :-) ) to take a
    	look and tell me that they can tell that there is paneling 
    	under that nice wallpaper....
    
    
    

    	It against the building code to put paneling up over the studs
    without sheetrock.  It would be a fire hazard.  An easy way to check
    would be to look at electrical outlet.  Turn off the breaker, remove
    the face plate and unscrew the outlet.  If it there is sheetrock
    you should see some where the box meets the wall.  
    	If there is sheetrock on the wall I'd strongly suggest removing
    the paneling.  Paneling is usually put up with small finish nails
    and should come down easily.  It can easily be broken or cut into
    sections and taken out with the trash.  How much is your wall paper
    going to cost.  I'd estimate $300 for a 12' x 12' room.  If your
    spending that kind of money, make sure you've got a good surface
    to put the wall paper on.

    				=Ralph=    

>   	If there is sheetrock on the wall I'd strongly suggest removing
>   the paneling.  Paneling is usually put up with small finish nails
>   and should come down easily.

    I don't know about "usually".  The paneling in our old house was (and
the process of tearing it down NEVER pulled the nails out along with the panel -
this left BILLIONS and BILLIONS of those little, nearly invisible, finishing
nails sticking out, ready and anxious to snag and tear any carelessly exposed
clothing or body parts).
    But some/alot/most paneling, these days, is installed with Liquid Nails or
other glue.  The paneling thus installed will NOT be easy to remove.  In which
case, add another note to this conference!

    Re: gluing up paneling:
    
    Previous owners of my house glued up el cheapo paneling as wainscoting
    in my dining room, right over the old plaster.  Then they painted
    the paneling.  It was pretty bad.  It was the kind of paneling of
    which Dave Barry says, "If you showed it to 100 people and asked
    them what it was, they would all say, 'I don't know, but it sure
    isn't wood'."
    Anyway...when I took it down, the plaster came too, and I ended
    up having to replace three walls worth of plaster.  I don't like
    the idea of glued-up paneling very much....
    

    Ref -1, Sheetrock walls are worse, at least with plaster, you can
    patch or put a skim coat of plaster, but glue over sheetrock causes
    you to remove the paper from the sheetrock making it almost impossible
    to get a smooth wall. In my house someone did this and then left
    some pseudo american revolution wall paper with red white and blue
    fighting eagles in spots. Once all the panelling was removed, the
    effect was...er, visually stimulating.
    						Chris

    	As was suggested in an earlier reply, a lot of people now suggest
    sealing the pressure treated lumber with a sealer that is designated
    as a PT wood sealer. It supposed to prevent or check warping,
    splitting, etc. while the lumber is drying out. 
    Near the end of last summer I stained a deck with a semi-transparent
    grey stain made by Cabot that was designated as a stain/sealer made
    specifically for NEW PT wood (stain and sealer combined). So far
    it seems to have worked very well. I had a lot of splitting etc.
    problems with another PT deck I built a few years ago, I have not
    experienced these problems yet (5 months later). I will definitely
    use this type of stain or sealer for future PT wood projects
    rather than just letting it dry out with nothing for 6-12 months.
    If you find the color you want in this type of stain then you can
    save a step.
    
                                             Wayne
         
    

    I am building a new house that is sided with Ceder. I want to have a
    natural wood look, but don't want it to blacken over the years. Should
    I use a semi-tranparent stain that is ceder colored? 
    
    					Thanks, DR

    
     It is the ultra-violet from the sun that turns the red cedar black.
    Most stains have ultra-violet blockers in them to prevent this
    deterioration. I have read that there is now *clear* wood preservative
    that has ultra-violet blockers just for the purpose you require.
    I don't remember which paint companies make this but the list is
    sure to grow. There was a test of stains about a year or two ago
    in Practical Homeowner which listed these. I'll try to find it.
    
    					Kenny
    
    PS - No matter what stain you put on your house - make sure it blocks
    ultra-violet.

    			< CWF  from a company named FLOOD >
    
    I used CWF on my new cedar sided house this fall. It looks great
     but only time will tell.....
    See note 1028 for more on this product and others.
    
    30 gallons cost me $315 in Sept. 88 in the Worc. mass area
    
    /bob

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Paul [Moderator]

There is a flight of stairs at my parents house that refuses to hold a coat 
of paint. The paint begins cracking and bubbling a few months after each 
repainting. It's an outdoor wood stairway (about 15 steps) up to a small deck. 
The problem is only with the surface that is actually walked on, the side 
and vertical pieces of wood are fine. I do scrape and sand before repainting.
I have looked through these notes for help but haven't had any luck. (I did 
find a great suggestion for mixing sand into paint to increase traction.) 

Could anyone out there help me out???  I would like to find someway that I can 
cut down on the number of paint jobs per year. 

Thanks ...                  Jack

    When you do they semi-annual repainting are they *dry*???
    
    If the bubbling/chipping exposes bare wood that gets wet I'd imagine
    you'd have a hard time getting a coat of paint to stick. 
    
    Edd

    
    .1 is right, the stairs should be really dry (at least 3 consecutive
    days of dry warm weather).
    
    When I painted my porch, I used a good oil-based deck paint (Benjamin
    Moore) thinned (about 20%) with paint thinnner.  Then I painted 3 very
    thin coats with a brush, so each coat could soak into the wood.  I made
    sure to let each coat dry thoroughly (a few days) before applying the
    next. 
    
    So far, it seems to be holding up quite well.  This summer I intend
    to add a couple more thin coats.  It takes more time to do it this
    way but I think the results are worth it.
    

Thanks... I appreciate your suggestions.

I just sanded them down and am about to paint (using thin coats of course.) 
While scraping and sanding I noticed that two boards were particularly wet 
right through. ------------>


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One more question:

	Does it make sense to paint the undersides of the steps? The 
	uderside of the stairway is completely exposed. Would applying a few 
	coats under there as well help keep moisture out? 

    
      Actually it depends on how the steps are exposed to the weather.
    If the back of the steps can dry out easily, it's probably better
    if you don't paint the backs. Not painting the backs will allow
    any water that DOES get into the wood to dry out. (and believe me,
    no matter how hard you try - SOME water will always get in) If wood
    gets wet through rain but the water has a hard time drying, it will
    force the paint to bubble by being wet behind it all the time.
    
    					Kenny

    
    You might consider using an oil-based solid stain on the back of
    the stairs.  It looks like paint, except it "breaths" and you never
    have to scrape.  The disadvantage of a solid stain is that it
    doesn't protect the wood as well from abrasion (feet walking on it),
    but this isn't an issue for the underside of the stairs.
    
    -tm
    

    
    I'm now in the process of _thinking_ about how to restain my house.
    The house is just over 2 years old, and was originally sprayed with
    a solid stain (on cedar clapboard).  I'm not positive, but I believe
    it was sprayed twice.  
    
    I'm not exactly sold on the idea of spraying this particular house
    because it's a fairly good size (2-story raised Cape, 26'x36', full
    rear dormer, 2 front gable dormers) and lots of painted trim and 
    windows.  I suppose that I dread the idea of all the masking
    that I'd have to do and feel that brushing may not be that much
    more work.  Any replies/opinions to this so far?
    
    Anyway, the reason it needs restaining so soon is that, due to
    weathering, the areas where the cedar siding really soaked-up the
    stain are showing.  Would it be worth going over the house twice,
    whether I brush or spray, so I don't have to do this again in the
    very near future?  How many years can I expect to get from 1 coat?  
    How many more from 2 coats?
    
    Thanks for all opinions and replies.
    John

    They make tools to be used with spayers which look like giant putty
    knifes.  They have a blade which is about 2-3 ft long and about 12
    inches from the edge to the begining of the handle. It is used as a
    cover.  For instance, you would put the "putty knife" up against the
    trim around your window and spray the house.  The putty knife blocks
    the paint from getting on the trim.  They can be used to make straight
    lines fairly well.  It is not as exact as masking tape and paper but it
    makes spraying much easier and quicker. 

    	I have a friend that tried spraying stain on his garage and
    said he would never do it again. He said it was messy, went on to
    light, went on uneven, and required two coats. He said the brush
    was the way to go. You can also use the straight edges mentioned
    in the previous note using a brush.
    
    	Although seemingly a little time consuming, taping seemed the
    way to go when we painted my house. I asked a professional painter
    about this and he said he doesn't tape, he just does it free hand.
    He also has a lot more experience than me and said that otherwise,
    tape was the way to go.
   
	Ray

    Moderator,
    I don't beleive that this subject is discussed in this 
    file if it is, please tell me where.  I've checked all 
    'paint' key words and could not find it.
    
    My house is currently tudor brown (very dark).  I want to
    change the color to beige.  Should I: just give it two 
    coats of the new color?  prime it white first?  have the 
    primer colored the same color as the paint?
    
    Thanks,
    Tom
                                                    

    It depends what you want to do. You can put two coats of the new
    color... What the first coat doesn't cover, the second will.  If
    you use a primer as the first coat, you might want to have it tinted
    to the color of the final coat.
    
    Consumers Reports reviews paints and one thing they cover is one-coat
    coverage.  You might be able to pick out a paint that does it in
    one coat!
    
    Elaine

    This note is a year old and no answers to the questions. I will be
    helping my son paint his half stucco half wood house this summer.
    Is the original noter still there? What did you ever use?  His stucco
    is *PINK* (NOT THE ORIGINAL OWNER) parts are very dirty and some
    mold or something on it. What is the best thing to clean, and how?
    He is going to paint or spray it white, will he need two coats.

      First  choose  the  paint  you  want  to  use,  then ask the paint
      salesperson for his/her advice.  In this context it may pay to  go
      to  a  paint  store  in  the hopes of getting better advice at the
      expense of a somewhat higher cost for paint.  

      Next,  I'd  suggest that buy small quantities of the paint an then
      pick an out-of-the-way spot on one wall  and  test  paint  several
      combinations.   i.e.  one  coat,  two  coats,  primer  + one coat,
      anything else that might be recommended.
      
      My  guess is that your WON'T be happy with the results of a single
      coat, no matter how good its "covering power".  Light  paint  just
      doesn't cover dark paint all that well. Two coats will probably be
      required.  If the first coat is a primer tinted to approximate the
      finished  color  it will probably be cheaper than two coats of the
      finish paint.
      
      Another  suggest  is that you carfully sand/scrape ALL loose paint
      before you start.  Of course this applies to any paint job, but in
      your case any flaking of chiping will allow the old, dark color to
      show through.

    Re .0
    
    We had a similar problem when we bought our house...the previous
    owners (perhaps I should really post this in the "Why did they ever
    do that?" note) had painted the house BLACK!  That's right, folks...
    gloss black in the front and a flat (sorta BBQ black) on the rear.
    Talk about avoiding the question when giving directions and asked
    what color house!
    
    I decided to use Sears Weatherbeater paint - Desert Sand for the
    house and Saddle Brown for the trim.  The sand color took 2 coats
    but covered nicely.  The brown covered in one coat.  The only
    place I used primer was on newly replaced shingles, wood, etc.
    
    Although the 2nd coat was more work it sure was worth it in the
    end to have the house look the way I wanted it to.
    
    Good luck!
    Evelyn

    I was looking in the Sears flyer last night, there are 
    6 types of weatherbeater.  Did you use the most expensive,
    least expensive or something in the middle?
    Thanks for the info,
    Tom
                       

    Re .3
    
    Black houses aren't all that unusual in the Maritime Provinces,
    especially coal mining country in Nova Scotia, for example.
    Every little town has a few.
    
    pbm
    

    Re .4
    
    We used the Weatherbeater 10 - in the "old" Sears days it used to
    go on sale quite frequently throughout the spring/summer months
    (around $9.00/gal).  I think it's a satin - in a blue can.
    It's pretty much the upper-middle of their line, I think they
    start at 5 years up to 15 or so.
    
    Evelyn

    Question for those of you with the Wagner paint sprayer (who still
    have the instructions or at least can remember reading them).  Can
    I shoot latex paint thru that gun and are there any special concerns
    regarding cleanup.  
    
    I just primed my porch railing this weekend and found that applying
    the oil based primer with the gun in one hand and brush in the other
    went a whoooooooole lot faster than brush only application.  In
    fact I got so excited I shot a pint or so on the house before cleaning
    the gun.  I'd never get a good enough coverage to not followup with
    the brush, but it made a convenient paint delivery system.
    
    Now I'm looking to top coat my railing with Latex and wonder if
    that tool can handle it.  (I borrowed it from a brother of a friend,
    no instructions came with it).  Can I shoot latex, do I need to
    thin it, and are there any special considerations regarding cleanup?
    Like will the gun rust?  Should I flush with alcohol afterwards
    to clear the water?
           
    -Bob

    Electric paint sprayers are very marginal for latex.  Thin the latex
    all you can (and a little more), and be prepared for a fairly coarse
    surface.  It falls in the category of "almost works."
    
    As far as cleanup, rinse out the tank thoroughly.  Run water through
    the gun until it comes out clear.  I usually take the gun apart,
    and clean up the guts with water and paper towels.  Spray the inside
    of the gun with WD40 to prevent rust.

    Response to .38
    I have used a Wagner Power Sprayer with Latex and it is a pain in
    the Neck.  You have to thin the paint a lot, and then you must be
    concerned with the uniformity of your color since you are constantly
    remixing with water.  If you do not thin it, the heat from the gun
    will cause the latex to form a rubber skin over your nozzle and
    your spray turns to either a jet or a dribble down your arm.
    
    My recommendation, if your mind is made up on using Latex paint,
    don't bother with your Wagner Painter.
    
    Chuck

    	Rent a sprayer from Taylor Rental. I did that 2 years ago. It
    is a high pressure sprayer that doesn't require thinning the latex
    paint at all. Did my whole house, a ranch, in about 7 hours including
    covering all windows, etc.

    Ditto on the usefullness of the Wagner with Latex. Even if you thin it
    way down you still get a spattered rather than sprayed finish. 
    
    If you do it, you should get the largest tip they offer - I think there
    is one specifically for Latex. They recommend that you use a special
    compound (that they supply) and run it through the gun after cleaning
    out the latex but something like WD-40 (re -.?) should also do it. 

    Well, these replies were discouraging enough that I started in with
    a brush.  Two hours of that was discouraging enough I'm ready to leave
    the railing and an open can of paint in the garage and start lobbing 
    in cherry bombs.
    
    The rental places local to Nashua do not rent sprayers that will
    take unthinned latex.  I agree that the texture of spraying is pretty
    sad.  I'll look tonight for a wider nozzle (re: .42) and if I can't
    locate such an item, will probably revert to spraying the paint on and
    then smoothing it with a brush.
      

    Try using a pad.  I've found it just as effective as a brush, for
    relatively smooth surfaces, but much easier on the hands and much
    faster.  They come in all sizes and are disposable.

    I can paint my one story ranch (with rough clapboards) in less than
    1 day using a pad...
    
    Edd

    How well do pads work on rough cedar clapboards, assuming you get the
    pads intended for rough surfaces?
    
    One point that makes pads attractive is that you can screw a long
    broomstick into the handle of the pad holder, thus providing more
    reach.  Is this a reasonable thing to do?
    
       Gary

    Pads work very well on rough surfaces.  I used pads to stain T-111
    panels  and it took a fraction of the time it would have taken with
    brush.
    
    I never used the pad with an extention but the ones I've seen have
    handles built for extentions.
    
    I rarely use brushes any more.

RE .38

	Thanks for the advice in .42.  I found the Latex nozzle, Wagner's
largest, for sale at Builder's Square Nashua for ~$10.  That did a
satisfactory job.  I felt better following up my spray job by passing over
it with a brush to get a smoother texture and catch my drips but it went
speedily enough.  When it comes time to repaint them I will probably try it
with a pad [and a teenager :-) ] to see how that works. 

-Bob

    I found Olympic Overcaot on sale at Nashua Wallpaper.  It was on
    sale for $12.98/gal w/$2.00 rebate/gal.  I know that is a good 
    brand and the price was right, I'll post the results of my project
    when the 'job' is completed...
    
    

    Re.0
    
    I have a similar question for a different reason.  I just purchased
    a house and need to de-wallpaper, paint, and re-paint everything.
    Is there a way to tell what type of paint is already on ceilings,
    walls, and woodwork?  If known (or unknown), can oil be put over latex
    and latex over oil?  I haven't seen this answered through the many
    paint paint discusions. 
    
    Thank you,
    
    KC

     The standby for oil base paint is latex over oil but not oil over
    latex.
    
    		Wayne

    
      The different expansion and contraction rates of oil and latex,
    that cause problems outside, are NOT a problem inside. What this
    means is you can put oil over latex inside with NO problems. Just
    make sure you sand walls and/or woodwork lightly before applying
    new paint of ANY type. The only possible problems you can run into
    on inside work is when applying semi-gloss over flat. The semi-gloss
    may come out uneven and need a second coat to have an even gloss.
    
      I recommend semi-gloss oil on interior woodwork and eggshell-gloss
    oil on interior walls. (the eggshell cleans better than straight
    flat) Eggshell being the level of gloss and is between flat and
    semi.
    
      I like Sherwin Williams 'Classic 99' semi-gloss oil. Just make
    sure you thin it a little if it seems at all too thick.
    
    					Kenny

    I posed oil vs latex question to a old time painter who is doing
    work in the building I work in he told me to do the following:
    
    - Wash done all ceilings, walls, and woodwork with SPIC 'N" SPAN
    - Scrap and Patch flakes or cracks
    - Lightly sand everything
    - Prime the ceilings with KILZ Stain Killer (BTW on sale for $7.99
      at ANN & HOPE in Watertown)
    - Paint Bathrooms and kitchens with oil (ceilings and walls)
    - Paint all other ceilings with semi-gloss laytex.
    
      (He told me as long as you sand and prime with KILZ it didn't
      matter what type of paint you used.)  ????
    
    - Paint all walls with semi-gloss laytex (Easy to wipe clean)
    - Paint woodwork with oil  
    - Recommended using Benjamin Moore Paint
    
    Does this sound right?  I worry about throughing up laytex on oil
    since I don't know what's up there now.
    
    Appreciate the help!  Thanks.
    
    KC (1st time DIY'er).
    

There are a bunch of opinions on when/where to use oil/latex.  

There are really two questions you have to answer;  what type of 
finish do you want on the walls and what type of paint do you want to 
use  (I assume all finishes are available in either oil/latex).


We used eggshell on the walls and semi-gloss on the woodwork.  For the 
ceiling we used 'ceiling paint', which I think is eggshell.  
Personally, we would't use semi-gloss on our ceilings and walls because 
we don't care for them to be that shiny.   

good luck

    
      In a bathroom, the best paint for the ceiling is semi-gloss oil.
    The reason is that it is MUCH more water resistant than any flat
    paint. BUT, it's too shiny for most people. The best all-around
    ceiling paint is Alkyd-flat enamel. It is oil based, very flat,
    very smelly (for a day or two), but it most definitly gives the
    best-looking finish. It is usually VERY thick so it would have to
    be thinned appropriately, and is not found at every store that sells
    paint (but any real paint store would have it). I have seen it labeled
    as 'for professional use only'. The reason for this is because it
    not as easy as latex to apply, and because it almost always has
    to be thinned.
      I do NOT agree with your "old timer" to prime the entire ceiling
    with a stain killer. You only need to apply a stain killer where
    there are stains!
      You should also be aware that if you put a semi-gloss over flat
    or flat over semi-gloss (doesn't matter if it's oil or latex) you
    may need to apply two coats for the gloss (or lack of it) to come
    out even.
    
    				Kenny
    
    BTW - my info comes from what a THIRD GENERATION painter taught
    me, a person that would NEVER cut corners and HATED to use latex.
    He's also my father!

    re:  stain killers
    
    From experience - using both - I found BIN to be much better than
    KILZ.  Goes on better - more even, more 'flow' less thin.
    
    Since the stain killers also act as a vapor barrier, I would suggest
    doing the whole wall, not just a section.  Besides being a stain
    killer, they work good as a sealer.
    
    Beware of the smell however, as they are both alcohol based!
    
    	-Barry-
    

    I checked other notes in this file, and found nothing that addresses my
    questions.  So, here goes...


    I have a ranch, about 2200 sq. ft., and it needs to have the exterior
    painted.  It needs a lot of prep work (scraping, cleaning, ...).

    *	Approximately what would it cost to have a contractor paint the
    	house?  The windows facing the street all have shutters.  Window
    	trim and shutters would be painted a different color than the
    	house.

    *	How long does a job like this usually take?  Is there a better time
    	of year to have this type of work done?

    *	What should I look out for in painting contractors?  (I looked at
    	notes 2018.*, and got a couple of recommendations, but didn't see 
    	any comments on this question.)  Also, once the job is completed,
    	how should I check the quality of the work, and what should I look
    	out for there?

    *	Does painting the exterior pose any inconvenience to the homeowner?
    	Will my wife and kids (who are generally at home during the day) 
    	feel inconvenienced?
    
    Any help or insight into these questions would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks
    
    David

.0>  Is there a better time of year to have this type of work done?

Topic 402 appears to address this question.


.0>  Does painting the exterior pose any inconvenience to the homeowner?
.0>  Will my wife and kids (who are generally at home during the day) 
.0>  feel inconvenienced?

Depends on how easily-inconvenienced they are:

  - If they're in the habit of leaving curtains open while changing clothes 
    or while using the bathroom, then having painters on scaffolds and 
    ladders may bother them.  
  - The sounds of scraping may be bothersome.
  - Each exterior door will be unusable while the area around it is being 
    painted.  Similarly for windows.
  - Painters will need water, bathroom visits, maybe electricity, maybe
    telephone access.  
  - Contractors in general take up an unbelieveable amount of space in the 
    yard to store materials and tools, and some of them don't clean up 
    very well.

Exterior painters are the least obtrusive contractors I can think of, but
there's some inconvenience associated with any construction activity. 
Personally, I usually find construction more distracting than inconvenient
- I'm constantly checking on progress, making sure the details are done
right, picking up tricks of the trade, lending a hand...

    I am interested in painting my house.  Now that it's July, summer is
    upon us, and 90+ degree temperatures are at the doorstep, is this an OK
    time to paint the exterior of a house?
    
    The previous notes talked about the fall and winter.  How about summer?

Summer is  usually  when  I do the outside painting.  I use Sears Weatherbeater
Latex, white, for  the  house and red for the trim.  For some reason, the white
seems to almost dry  so  fast  the  brush sticks to the side of the house.  The
down side of that is  that  it  is  sometimes  difficult to tell where you have
missed a spot unless you get down off the ladder and look from a ways away.

Dave

    Don't paint in direct sun -- paint in the shade.  This applies to
    paint (dries too fast in direct sunlight), and seems to kind of
    apply to painters too....
    
    Seriously, as long as the area you are painting is out of direct
    sunlight, and not wet from dew, the only issue is how well you can
    hold up.

    I just read a story about a man who stains his house with
    used motor oil!  (Yankee mag.)
    
    It came out a dark rich brown color.  Seems like a great
    way to re-cycle the motor oil...
    
    Does anyone out there know if this could be harmful to
    your house or the people who live in it?
    
    renee cyr

    I have used motor oil for similar uses in the past, although not
    on a lived-in house, so I cannot attest to the health hazards if
    any that are connected with such use.
    
    As far as the looks are concerned, it depends on your expectations.
    I used it to stain a barn which had pine board/batten siding. It
    was sprayed on. It was a very dark color - almost black like it
    comes out of your car- for about six months during which time
    it mellowed out to a brown color similar to that which you get
    with regular stain.  I was pretty pleased with the result.
    
    I also have sprayed pine board fences the same way with the same
    results.  One person I know did his garage, but he brushed it on.
    I thought it came out much too dark and took much too long to mellow.
    I would not recommend that method.
    
    If you choose to use a sprayer, be sure to strain the oil thoroughly.
    The first time I did not and my sprayer got clogged up with all
    kinds of metal filings and junk that was suspended in the oil.
    
    Good luck
    

    Wouldn't it get into the ground water?  It's considered hazardous stuff,
    supposedly full of heavy metals (lead, etc.).

    How would it get into the groundwater?  You spray it onto the wood,
    not onto the ground :^)  does house paint and Stain get into the
    groundwater?
    

    Re -.1, Well, how about this scenario:  Motor oil never dries, the wood
    absorbs it like  a sponge.  When it rains on the house, the rain water
    hitting the walls washes  some small?  amount of oil off the house onto
    the ground.  Paint dries  to  a solid, so it's not an issue.  I presume
    oil stain dries as well, but I've never used stain.
    
    Sort of like oiling the bottom  of  your  car,  the oil gets washed off
    eventually.

    you have to change it every 6 months or 6000 miles.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    I am surprised that this topic has not gone down the proverbial rathole 
with people screaming about ecological damage to your groundwater,etc.....

It seems to me that used motor oil, no matter how nice the color of the 
wood gets, is the wrong product for anything like that....As pointed out, 
it never drys, it may have some odor to it, it certainly must be a mess for 
anywhere from a few days to maybe weeks while it is being absorbed, and it 
can't be doing the ground around the building any good. It does contain 
heavy metals, and will make the area unusable for gardens, probably 
permanently. (Gardens for Veggies, that is....)

If I were the buyer of such a property, and discovered someone had used 
that, I probably would have the place tested and declared a hazardous waste 
site....and you know what that would cost the offending owner in cleanup 
costs. I just don't see the value of such a shortsighted idea, when you can 
buy a good stain on sale for $11-12 per gallon and get a product that will 
do exactly what it is intended to do, protect the wood, dry, not smell, and 
not leach into the ground around the building.

I am not trying to preach here, but this is a crazy idea in my book.

    Vic H

    There's probably some leaching from the wood when it rains, but I was
    mainly thinking of all the oil that falls when you spray it on.

    Pretty good points about the motor oil.  I can admit it when
    I have a bad idea.
    
    How about if you do your house with motor oil and out a drip pan
    around the outside.  then you can bring the excess back to K-Mart?
    :^)
    
    

    I have used motor oil to stain my shop/barn ,40'x36' two story, for
    many years and it looks great (my opinion) Because of the area I
    live and what the ground is around my shop is I really don't worry
    about ground water of any adverse affects. I even burn used motor
    oil to heat my shop durning the winter. I work with a few enviromental
    experts here at dec, and they have checked into the hazards of what
    I used the oil for and I am not doing harm (i.e. WELL within limits
    of any EPA standards)
    
    When I spray my shop with oil I use an airless pressure sprayer
    and it does not overspray. Also when its sprayed there is no
    wind. Oil, by the way, has less harmful things than a nonlaytex stain.
    
    
    Jim...
    
    ps I also use oil to keep my cars/truck from rusting...
    

    
    Must make one hell of a structure fire if one of these buildings
    ever gets lit!
    
    							* MAC *

    Geeeeee
    
    You mean to tell me that Olympic and others are flame retardent?
    
    Jim

    I just finished watching a re-shingling job progress on the
    house next to my parents' place.  Back around 1965, I watched
    the two oldest boys of the family in that house apply motor
    oil, using 4" brushes, to parts of one wall.  I found it
    interesting to note that the parts of the wall that had shingles
    disintegrating, cracking, etc. were the same parts that had
    the motor oil applied (once) many years ago.  
    
    I can't draw any definite "motor oil causes damage to
    wood shingles" conclusions, but I feel it worth the effort
    to ask a question or two.....
    
    What IS the effect of petroleum-based oil on wood?  
    
    What effect does motor oil have on any previously-applied
    oils, stains, etc. on wood shingles?
    
    How long does a motor-oil treatment last, compared to commercial
    oils, stains, etc.?  
    
    Does anybody KNOW answers to these?  
    
                                 - Ed -

    
    RE:    Note 3349.12 by LUDWIG::BOURGAULT 
    	    -< Oil damages wood shingles? >-
    
    My guess is that the oil would act as a stain, but *not* a preservative
    or a sealer.  Most commercial stains have preservatives and/or sealers
    in them.  If someone were to use the "motor oil stain method", I
    think it would be best to first apply a wood preservative, then
    apply the oil, and lastly, apply a sealer or sealer/preservative.
    
    -tm
    

    I completed the job while on vacation last week.  I used two
    coats and it came out beautifully.  Olympic Overcoat has a 
    15 year warranty.  I hope to get 7 - 8 years out of it.

    Thanks to all of you for your input!  
    
    Just to satisfy your curiousity, I won't be staining 
    my house with motor oil.  My husband is dead set against it...
    and there doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to try to 
    talk him into it!  (We get enough heavy metal from the teenagers
    next door.)  
    
    renee cyr (.1)

	You could save it for your BBQ grill's grates... :-)  (just kidding!)

		josh

    Do you have to use 10w-30 in the winter and 10w-50 in the summer???
    

    This is kinda late but, i have seen many beautiful wood gun stocks
    rot out because the people thought "if a little oiling is good for
    a gun alot must be better"...  wood will become oil soaked and rot
    out, which is probably what happened to the guys house mentioned
    in a previous reply.
    
    fra
    

    
    Back a few years ago in woodshop class in high school
    we used used motoroil as a stain. Then applied a sealer
    to the finished product. I still have the items I made.
    and they still look great. 
    
    steve

Many years ago I treated my split rail fence with creasote.  Last year I needed
to repaint that fence. Now that creasote is no longer available in MA, last
summer I used a 50-50 mix of used motor oil and linseed oil(not used) instead.
It looks great, is dry to the touch, has lasted at least one season with no
apparent side effects (if the oil was leaching out in the rain I would expect
to see the grass under the fence to suffer).  I got the color, deep brown, from
the carbon in the motor oil and the preservation from the linseed oil. 

So far So good...

    I used a paint sprayer to apply latex ceiling paint and had no problems
    at all. I borrowed the sprayer from a friend, I think it was a Sears
    model. After completing the jog I took the sprayer apart and cleaned
    it thouroughly. The ceiling still looks great.
    
    (BTW in case you are wondering, I had to spray paint the ceiling
    because whatever had been used to paint it previously, kept pulling
    off when I tried to roll fresh paint on.)

    		Mark
    

re .50:

>    (BTW in case you are wondering, I had to spray paint the ceiling
>    because whatever had been used to paint it previously, kept pulling
>    off when I tried to roll fresh paint on.)

    Sounds like the dreaded calcimine.

    re .51
    
    			Sure does...............

    I haven't seen any notes on estimating the amount of paint or stain
    needed for a job, perhaps because it's usually just a simple case of
    calculating square feet.
    
    But I'd like to know if there are any shortcuts for calculating the
    amount of stain needed for trim, namely doors and windows.  Ordinarily,
    this wouldn't be crucial, since it's no big deal if you need to run out
    and get another gallon.  No one's likely to notice that two different
    windows used stain that's the same official color but from different
    lots.  In our case, we'd like to stick with the color that's already on
    the trim, but it's turning out to be difficult to find, even though
    it's still on the manufacturer's color sheets.  I want to make
    sure that if we can locate it, that we buy enough to begin with, lest
    we be stuck with one more window to do and no matching stain to be
    found.  
    
       Gary

    I spoke to a painting contractor about painting the outsides  of
    the windows in our house and touching up the exterior.
    
    He charges $17.50 an hour and estimates, worst case, $50.00 per
    window. Our windows are 2 over 2 and his estimate includes removing
    the storm windows, rechauling and painting.
    
    Are his prices reasonable?  And are his estimates reasonable?

    Either 1 gallon more or less than purchased depending on the day of the
    week and color of paint/stain being applied. 8^)
    

    My painting contractor charged less.  He didn't charge by the hour
    or window, but I calculated the hourly charge and it was significantly
    less than $17.50/hr. (I don't know the number off the top of my
    head).
    
    The painter's name is Scott McPherson.
    
    Bo

    two doors, two coats, latex paint = 1 quart
    

    Our painter didn't charge by the hour. But I'll tell you what we
    paid for the job (it was done in June of '88.)
    
    Our 26x40 house was painted, the foundation was painted, the cement
    front steps were patched and painted, the railings and bulkhead
    were painted, and all 11 windows were painted (each window required
    2-3 coats.) The painters tried to remove the storms but were stripping
    the screws so they opted to leave them on. They did a beautiful
    job. The entire job cost us $1,100.00. BTW, they used Sherwin Williams
    latex.
    
    Mike  

      The  rule  of  thumb I use is to simply divide the cost per gallon
      into my bank balance.  The result is one gallon less than needed.

Re: .3

Not a bad rule, but it ignores the fact that you sometimes have to put
on a second coat...

re: .4

      If  you  need  two  coats  just add your credit limit to your bank
      balance and apply the rule in .3.

    Time to see if anyone has any more ideas.

    I'm planning  on  replacing  part  of my porch with PT lumber, and
    want  to  paint  or stain it to match the rest of the wood nearby,
    which  is  not PT, and is painted grey and white. Is this remotely
    possible?  The  alternatives  are  to  have  a ugly line where the
    material  changes,  or to rebuild the entire porch, which would be
    much more expensive, and not match the house as well.

--David

    Sure!  Paint or stain to match the rest of the deck/house.  Allow
    the PT to dry (3-6 months) and then paint as you would any other
    new wood.  That is to say, sand, prime, first coat, top coat.

    The solid kind of Cuprinol wood stain (at least - don't know about
    other brands) sure doesn't soak into the pressure-treasted wood the way
    it does into untreated wood.  When I had my untreated front steps
    rebuilt with treated wood, I let the new steps weather for a year, and
    then stained them to match, but the stain wears off on the stair treads
    after a couple of years of foot traffic.  I used the transparent sort
    of Cuprinol on the deck in the back when I had to replace it with
    treated wood a couple of years later, and that has held up much better,
    but of course it also gets much less wear on the stair treads.
    
    Oh, well, I would rather stain the treads of the steps again in a
    coupel of years (had to do them this past spring) than rebuild them
    again.  At least they are not rotting out!
    
    I think the treated wood, with its greenish tinge, looks pretty bad if
    you don't stain it - it probably doesn't help that my house is painted
    green anyhow; I wanted the steps and deck to be brown.

This summer I built a picnic table out of PT, I know now I shouldn't have, and 
I want to paint it to protect the family. I was planning on putting on some of 
that Cuprinol water sealer first. Can I paint over water sealer? or will the
paint adhere to this sutff? or do I need the sealer at all if I paint?

Thanks,

Tom

I'm going to paint (stain) my house this week (and probably the next
week, and the next, and the next . . .), and have an area which looks
to be almost impossible to reach.  This is the exterior of the 2nd
story above the garage.  An attempt at a picture follows:


                          | |
			. | |
		      .	  | |
                    .     | | .
                  .   1 . | |   .
                .|    .   . |    | .
                 |  .       |  2 |
                 |.           .  |
                .|              .|  
                 |              | .
                 |              |
                 |              |  
                 |              |
             -----------------------

The 2nd story roof is about 7 feet above the garage roof on the
left side (1 above), and about 8 feet above the garage on the right
side (2 above).  (The difference is due to the "Garrison Colonial"
style of my house).  I can't safely reach the roof with my out-
stretched arm on either side.

I think I can lean a 34-foot extension ladder against the chimney
from the ground to reach area 2.  Area 1 is a stumper.  Anyone run
across this arrangement before, and any helpful ideas on how to
tackle it?  I've thought of brushes on poles . . .

Siding is rough-sawn cedar, has been stained once.  I am changing the
siding color, but not the trim color.

If I understand your layout, all you need to do is find a way to stand on your
garage roof, right?  There are a couple ways of doing that - nailing 2x4
"cleats" directly to your roof (leave the nails/spikes sticking out a bit so
you can pull them out when you're done), or using your ladder laid down on the
roof and secured there ... somehow.

I saw a what-seemed-to-me fairly elaborate plan of 2x4's arranged so as to fit
onto a ladder (on one side of the roof) and lay down on the other slope to take
your weight.  Check out some home repair books, maybe the series published by
Sunset available in building supply places, hardware stores, etc.

    Well, not exactly; if I stand directly on the roof (no problem
    there), I still can't reach the top siding boards directly
    in front of me (I lack a foot or so).
    
    It looks like I need some sort of scaffolding or platform to
    walk on so I can reach the highest siding boards.  In the
    (lousy artwork) picture I scribbled up, imagine a board laid
    on the peak of the garage roof remaining horizontal up to the
    left edge of the house (side view there).  That would be a
    base on which to stand to reach the high spots "downwind" of
    the peak.

    My brother-in-law recently had the exact same problem, and an unusual
    solution.  He rented a bucket truck for a weekend.  I'm not sure
    how you could find a truck to rent, unless you know someone who
    has one, but it might be worth checking into.  (he got it from an
    electrician that his father knows).

    Assuming your not afraid of heights.  Get on the roof of the house,
    (after you have reached what you can from the garage roof) lie flat
    and reach over the edge.  you should be able to reach a foot or more
    down.
    
    Bob  

    There is a ladder called "Little Giant" that is made by Wing.  It
    allows you to set the height and angle of each of the ladder legs.
    They are great for setting up on stairs and roofs, since you set
    it to the angle and height you need.
    
    A rental company should be able to provide you with one.
    
    Jim

    or build a triangular-shaped platform that can be used to create a flat
    surface onto which you can place a step ladder or a step stool.  
    
    
    
    --------
    \      !
       \   !
          \
       
    
    You would probably want to nail it down to provide stability.....

  >>  ... I've thought of brushes on poles . . .

    Why not do this?  As I understand it, you only have about a 1 foot stip
    at the top and you can buy poles and brushes for this. 
    
    Gary (who is facing the same problem but is 15 feet too short)

	We solved that recently by leaning a very sturdy extension ladder
	against the smaller roof, making *VERY* sure the bottom of the
	ladder was secure, and then extending the ladder until we could
	reach the peak.  If the ladder is at the correct angle, you can reach
	most of the face you're painting.  If the base of the ladder is not
	secure, you will have a king size see-saw.


						-sjk

Or, with two ladders, lie one flat on the roof, tie a rope to the top, and tie 
it off on the other side to a tree, or a to the bumper of a car if there is no 
tree handy.  Use the other ladder to get from the ground up onto the roof.  If 
you tie the rope to a car, the keys should be in the pocket of the person who
is actually going to be on the roof.  :^) 

Paul

Use a safety rope tied off to the chimney.  If you don't have one, make or buy
one.  You may be glad you did.

Assuming you have an extension ladder that you use to get onto the lower roof,
secure the ladder to the roof to assure no lateral movement.  Run a plank from
the ridge of that roof over through a rung of the ladder so the plank is level. 
This will take care of most of your problem.  The rest can be done from a small
step or ladder placed on the plank and leaned against the upper roof's gable.

When we do this, we use plenty or rope to tie things here and there and
sometimes even nail the plank into the ridge.  The resulting holes are easy to
repair using tar.

And when we do this, our top priority is safety, not ease of use.

    The books that I have seen that discuss getting on roofs (Time-Life,
    others) show a bracket that can be attached to one end of a ladder,
    and which reaches around the ridge to the other side of the roof.  Thus
    the ladder becomes a sort of hook, hanging from the ridge.  The only
    thing close to this that I've seen in the stores is a picture on a box
    for a ladder stabilizer, showing that it can also be used for this
    purpose.  Any opinions on whether this is a safe or reasonable way to
    be up on a roof?
    
    If you do nail scaffolding or supports into the roof, how do you patch
    the holes from the nails so that a) they don't leak, and b) they don't
    look horrible on asphalt shingles that aren't black.  Wouldn't just
    gooping tar into the holes produce unsightly black spots, visible from
    the ground?
    
    Finally, many pad holders are threaded to be put on the end of a
    broomstick.  That's the solution I'm planning on using to get the extra
    reach (safely, without putting my body outside the sides of the
    ladder).
    
       Gary

> Wouldn't just gooping tar into the holes produce unsightly black
> spots, visible from the ground? 

A trick to patching holes in shingles is to use silcone to fill the
holes, then take a couple of scraps of matching shingles, rub them
together, face to face, to scratch off some of the grit, sprinkle the
grit into the surface of the silcone and then pat it in. 

An invisible patch! Even on the roof!

Charly    

    I recently used the Tourraine Cal-Cote brand.  What I am not sure about
    is whether I can now put another type of paint over it (i.e. latex
    ceiling or texture paint), or did I essentially just paint the
    calcimine?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Art

    I have used Cal-Cote before and as I recall it says someplace on the label
    that it bonds with the calcmite on the celing.  I know that I used to be 
    able to wash the calcmite off the ceiling with water before I painted 
    it but it feels like normal paint now.  

    I don't think you would have any problem painting over the Cal-Cote.  

    By the way, why do you want to paint over it anyway?

    mac

    Why do I want to paint over it?  I guess I just get bored with a flat
    ceiling!
    
    Actually, while I was able to work out some of the ceiling's
    irregularities, some still show up.  A textured (lightly) can help
    cover some of the deviations.  Particularly since additional ones tend
    to crop up after I have been in the attic above.
    
    The can does not mention anything about it bonding, so I will also
    check with the paint dealer to verify.
    
    thanks,
    
    Art

    Just to help anyone who is in this situation in the future...
    
    While the paint stores may tell you that you can put any paint over 
    the Tourraine Cal-Cover (Cal-Cote?), I called the lab at Tourraine and 
    they said NO WAY!  They even said that if I had called them first, they 
    would have even recommended against even using the CAL-Cover.
    
    They said that it will yellow very quickly, and that I would be better
    off taking the calcimine off the ceiling, or covering the ceiling with
    sheetrock.  They also said that the only poeple who seem to use the
    CAL-Cover are apartment owners who are looking for a quick fix to a
    problem, but recommended that all homeowners make the effort to do it
    right.
    
    Art

     Actual case history:
     ===================

     I rolled three ceilings with Cal-Coter about about a year ago.

     2 of the three look great, no peeling whatsoever, or yellowing.

     The third ceiling had peeling calcimine before, and I scraped all of the
     loose stuff off, skim-coated with joint compound to smooth over the areas
     that had peeled, sanded, and rolled on cal-coter.  It's showing some signs
     of peeling at this point, but not noticeable unless you are looking for it.
     I believe that what is 
     peeling is the calcimine from the plaster (along with the cal-coter)
     not the cal-coter from the calcimine.  

     So, my lesson is that cal-coter works great if the existing calcimine is
     in good shape, i.e. is not peeling.  If the calcimine is already peeling,
     you're best advised to remove all of it, because the peeling that has
     already started is an indicator that the rest of it is not well adhered
     to the plaster.

     I can already hear the responses saying that you should never paint 
     anything over calcimine, but these results have proven to me that
     removing the calcimine is not the only solution to the problem, especially
     being that removing the calcimine is a very, very, messy, time-consuming,
     labor intensive job.

     Steve

     ps  another tip on using cal-coter, thin it about 3 parts paint to 1 part
         thinner.  Use odorless thinner to keep the stench down.  The stuff 
         makes my wife sick when I use it.
     

>Can I paint over water sealer? 

You can paint over Thompson's Water Seal (after 3 days for oil-based paint &
30 days for latex-based).

>or will the paint adhere to this sutff?   

Sure.

>or do I need the sealer at all if I paint?  

It probably helps preserve the wood.


Steve

    Has anyone stained t1-11 siding?
    
    I went to buy some white stain for a room that I t1-11 sided.
    
    The salesman at Sommerville told me I should sand down the t1-11
    siding first, or wait until it has weathered a bit, to brake down
    the sheen on the t1-11 siding, which he says the stain or paint
    has a hard time adhering to.
    
    Has anyone had any problems staining t1-11, did you sand or wait
    for it to weather?
    
    Mark, who_wants_to_stain_it_asap_without_sanding.
    
    Thanks.

    I recently stained a shed whose outer walls are T1-11 with a solid
    stain. The key I found is to get a "staining brush", which has a width
    similiar to a 4" or so brush, but is much thicker. It worked quite well
    and I didn't do any sanding first (the T1-11 was actually a rough
    surface).
    
    Eric

    
    I achieved a personal milestone this past weekend: I finished staining
    the last side of our house, all sided with T-111.
    
    My advice would be to use a spray gun, one of the Wagner electric
    types.  I painted my T-111 sided shed with a brush, and it took
    forever, and didn't come out nearly as uniform.
    
    I'm not sure why you'd need to sand it first.  I've done both new
    T-111 and old, and didn't sand down either.
    
    If the siding is whethered at all, or non-uniform in appearance,
    you should use a solid stain, not one of the semi-transparent ones.
    They just won't cover well enough.  I had some whethered spots on
    the back side of the house, and tried to use a semi-transparent
    stain.  Where it was whethered and didn't cover well, I tended to
    put more stain on.  The bad spots are covered, but there's quite
    a variation in color now.  I switched to a solid stain for the rest
    of the house, and it looks a lot better.
    
    -gary
    

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Paul [Moderator]

I'm not sure if this should go under the Painter referral note, so Mr./Ms. 
Moderator - feel free to move as necessary.

My husband and I are planning to paint our circa 1900 Queen Anne Victorian next 
Spring/Summer.  We're currently in the process of trying to choose a color 
scheme - we want to use several colors a la 'Painted Ladies' tradition 
(although not quite as bright as some of the S.F. Ladies..this IS New 
England.....).

I've heard about people who specialize in helping you choose a color scheme.  
Does anyone have any experience with this type of service?  If so, what type of 
price should we expect to pay for it?  Do you think it was helpful?  (I wish I 
could do it myself, but this is SUCH a big project at such an expense, I'd 
probably kill myself if it turned out horrible.  I don't think I could 
stand the stress of watching the painters....)

I've heard of some, but they seem to be located in California or the Mid-West.
Does anyone know of any people who do house color analysis around here 
("here" being anywhere near Boston and/or Worcester)?  

Any comments on this issue are welcome!

Sue "Color Blind" Peghiny

P.S. I don't THINK Beauty Control or Mary Kay does this sorty of thing.....

There's at least one mail-order service that advertises in the Old-House
Journal.  You send 'em a photo of your house and they send you historically
authentic color schemes.

I remember one or more articles in OHJ a few years back with information 
about historical color schemes, specifically for Victorians.

    Try the Society for the Preservation of New England Antiquities.  If
    they can't provide direct help, they should be able to provide a
    reference.  

Talk yourself blue here about color schemes and how to go about choosing them.

But please post a note in 2018 also for recommendations.

Thanks

Paul

    I picked my (non-Victorian) color scheme by driving around on grey,
    depressing days looking for houses that looked good despite the
    weather.  I found one I liked and then knocked on the door and asked if
    I could compare paint chips and bring my painter by to look.  Worked
    beautifully and had a pleasant chat with the owner.

    There is a guy right across the street from me in Hudson, Mass. who just
    spent the entire summer repainting his Victorian House.  From what I've
    been told, these colors are the original colors of when the house was
    first built.  The house is located just off of rt 85 at the corner
    of Park and Rutland.  I also believe that they could tell you how
    they found out what the original color scheme was.  The house is has
    about 5 different colors on it...Red, black, two tints of mustard
    colors...  You really have to see it to appreciate it.  I'm sure other
    people who read this conference have seen this house and would agree
    that it is quite the place.    

I have 2 pictures of that house on my refridgerator!  My favorite house.  
When Ron and I dream about what we would do if we won Mass Millions, that 
house is always part of the plan.... In fact, I realized that when I was 
trying to come up with a color scheme on my own, they all ended up looking 
like his house.  

I did speak with him one day, and he said to stop back on a Thursday or Friday 
and he'd help me out.  Unfortunately, I work during the week so I haven't made 
it back.

Hasn't ANYONE out there tried or looked into a professional color consultant?
I'd feel more comfortable meeting someone, having them come see the house and 
the neighborhood before choosing colors.  Mail orders make me nervous - sorry 
Dave.

Sue

    My landlady does this sort of work.  Try giving her a call.
    
    	Janice Cox
    	508-835-6328
    
    Darleen

    The Athenaeum of Philadelphia has reprinted (1976) a great picture book
    originally published in 1885 that's titled Exterior Decoration.  The
    book's purpose is "... to make available rare primary documents on
    nineteenth century architecture and decoration ..."
    
    This book is the first republished because "color documentation is one
    of the most difficult problems facing the owner of a period house who
    wants to paint it authentically ..."
    
    The book supplies an extensive bibliography, the 1885 text, and then
    many pictures of fantastic Victorian houses with several different
    color schemes (there's also a hotel and train depot for the
    interested).  Great to look at.  The color schemes are coded to 50
    real color chips at the back of the book, reproduced from an 1887 John
    Lucas & Co. color card.  These colors are not your basic beiges and
    blahs, but more like vibrant and rich greens of various hues, maroons,
    tans, rusts, golds, browns.
    
    This book is well worth a trip to the library.
    
    	Marlene

    
    
    
    	Has anyone out there ever re-finished the trim in the inside of
    their home?  I will be re-carpeting next year sometime, and would like,
    at the same time to replace/refinish the base boards and window and
    door trim.  
    
    	If you have done this, was there any savings in refinishing over
    replacing?  I would be stripping 3-4 layers of white latex(with 2
    primer coats) so that I could stain and varnish.  
    
    	Thanks,
    		Chuck
    

    I have refinished *LOTS* of woodwork in my 1900-vintage house.  That
    includes columns, window seats, moldings, window and door frames,
    sidelights, doors, 8-inch baseboards, and even window mullions on tiny
    8-paners.  We're talking many, many layers of paint here.
    
    In my living room previous owners painted much of the architectural
    trim.  Fortunately they did not sand before painting, so it was easier
    to remove the paint and return to the dark, varnished mahogany. 
    Discovered lovely walnut trim in, of all places, a sleeping porch. 
    Eight windows, two sidelights, and French doors had hidden for 90 years
    under paint.  If all goes well, they'll be totally restored by winter's
    end.
    
    Although tedious, I obviously find this work very rewarding.  If I ever
    finish all my woodwork, it will be time to find another old house.
    
    Good luck.
    
    		Marlene

There are several notes about stripping paint - see notes 28, 335, 1164, 1214, 
and 1915.  None of them address whether to strip or simply remove/replace.

Paul

    It will be much cheaper to strip and re-paint.  I've replaced several
    rooms worth of baseboard and moldings.  It's surprising how many
    linear feet there are in the circumference of even a small room.
    If yours is an older house with high baseboards, the combined price
    of the required raw stock (8" clear pine and 3/4" band molding)
    will probably exceed $4/ft.  Once it's in place, it still has to
    be painted.  And if your house is anything like mine, there won't
    be single right angle in it which makes for lots of fun playing
    with miter angles (and much wood filler).
    
    I would have left the old ones in place.  But, the planed in mouldings
    and rabbeted floor groove weren't compatible with the new sheetrock
    walls.  Stripping goes easily with a heat gun and quarter pad sander.
    
    - gene
    

    The first question that comes to mind is , do you have a "newer"
    home (<30 yrs.)The reason is ,if you have a victorian, or fancy archite
    ctural mouldings than stripping may be the way to go. However, if you 
    have simple baseboard, and window mouldings, you may want to just
    replace 'em. I would try a window , or a room first. Somethings to
    considor are your time (worth $$) the smell, and hazards of chemical
    strippers, posible gouging wood when stripping, and the resultant 
    mess (paint + chemicals = toxic waste !), dangers of applying a lot
    of heat to combustable surfaces in a confined area etc...
    

Of course, if you have an older home, there's probably lead in that paint.
If you decide to strip the paint, you might want to wait for warm weather
so you can ventilate properly.

  And then there is the ultimate in laziness, if you have the patience.
Just leave the moulding outside during the winter months where it will
get plenty of sun. The wood's expansion and contraction will cause the
paint to alligator. The longer you leave it out, the easier the removal.

  Patrick

    It's been some time since I originally wrote the base note (.0) and I
    am starting to think about having my house painted in the spring.
    
    I would appreciate ANY and all helpful advice on the topic of
    contracting to have your house painted.  Things like
    
    		Expense
    	 	Pros & Cons
    		What to look out for
    		How long should it take?
    		etc......
    
    Thanks

I Did not see this specific topic discussed elsewhere, but please feel
free to move it if necessary.

I am in the process of doing a job for someone which basically entails
painting a new pine floor.  To try to sum this up briefly, the floor is
new pine, with radiant heat underneath the floorboards.  I am receiving
mixed information as to whether it is necessary to BINZ the entire floor.

My paint supplier tells me to BINZ the knotholes and prime the rest of 
the floor.  He feels that if I BINZ the entire floor, the BINZ will not
provide me with the necessary surface on which to paint.  (I will be
covering the BINZ with a coat of oil paint, followed by several layers of
thinned oil paint applied with sponges, etc. to create a marbled effect).

The contractor who is painting the walls and woodwork in the house feels
that if I DO NOT BINZ the entire floor, over time sap(?) (i.e., the 
brown stuff) will bleed through to the surface.  

My concerns are as follows:

	If I spot Binz, I plan on following with a layer of prime,
	a layer of color 1, a thin layer of color 2, a thin layer of
	colors 3, 4 and 5 and three coats of poly.  Do I still run the
	risk that something will bleed thru?

	If I BINZ the whole floor, followed by all of the above, except
	the layer of prime...will the BINZ create such a thick surface 
	that I'll run the risk of the paint cracking when the floorboards
	expand and contract during the seasons.

	The BINZ will probably fill in the small grooves between the 
	floorboards, which my customer DOESN't want to happen.  Can I
	thin the BINZ somehow and have it still be effective?  

    	Will a thick layer of BINZ have any effect on the radiant 
    	heat?
    
    
I would appreciate any and all opinions.

Thanks

Lorraine

See also notes 393 and 1587

Paul

  I have no help to offer about your question but...

  >...To try to sum this up briefly, the floor is new pine, with 
  >radiant heat underneath the floorboards...

  I'm curious as to why someone would put radiant heat in the floor and
  then cover it up with a good insulator like wood.  Am I missing
  something?

  JP

    
    	If you put *new* pine flooring over radient heat, the pine *will*
    shrink quite a bit, leaving unsightly seems between the floorboards.
    These seems will probably be 1/8 to � inch wide, depending on the
    width of the floorboards.  Why not put down well seasoned pine?
    
    Eric

RE .2

I'm not sure why they put heat under the floorboards, my only guess would be
that this house is circa 1790 and the area that they renovated was once an
ell connecting the house to the barn.  I believe that there's a crawl space
under that section of the house, so possibly the heat adds extra protection
against freezing pipes as well as providing added warmth.

    
    RE .3
    
    I'm not sure how long the pine was aged, but I called the contractor
    this weekend to find out how wide the boards were and he DID say that
    they had shrunk about 1/8".  I remember the owner telling me that
    the boards were laid down tongue and groove, and I remember looking
    at them and noticing that the eges were beautifully rounded, and I
    couldn't notice any glaring gaps between the boards.  My guess is
    they were hand planed as well.  This house is undergoing ground
    up restoration and there's always a crew of little Geppeto's there
    doing beautiful work.
    
    
I ended up solving my own BINZ problem.  I talked to a local paint dealer and
found out that BINZ dries to an extremely hard surface and if an entire area
is primed with BINZ, it does not allow the wood to expand and contract properly
and will cause the paint applied over it to crack.  Apparently the BINZ people
agree with this assumption as well.  They also recommend that the BINZ'd surface
be painted within 1 hour of application or the paint will not adhere properly.

What I'll be doing is BINZ'ing the knot holes and priming the rest of the floor.
Because of the age of the house and paint treatment I'm using on the floor, I
felt that even a little bleed-thru would add character rather than detract to
the overall look.  I got my customer to buy into this as well, so I'm 
home free.

Lorraine
    

    
    	A friend is thinking of doing exactly what the base noter
    	was ... painting a dark brown house sort of a cream/tan
    	color.
    
    	He's got cedar shingles ... what would the result of a
    	roller be, as opposed to a brush, in terms of:
    
    	1)	Dripping
    	2)	Coverage
    	3)	Premature flaking/peeling?
    
    	Thanks for any info.
    
    							Shawn L.
    

    RE .9
    
    I had posted an earlier reply to the base note (.3 I think) - I painted
    beige over black.  We have alot of surface on our house (88' long
    ranch) so I tried everything!  Ours is sided with cedar shakes and the
    most even covrage was with a brush - we tried spray painting and
    rollers and found they wasted too much paint and only the brush really
    got into all those groves in the shakes.  
    
    Unless your friend pays someone else to do it, I don't think there's
    an easy way - tell him/her to buy lots of beer and invite a bunch of
    friends over!
    
    Evelyn

       
    My three year old deck made with MAHOGANY flooring and treated
    only with CUPRINOL prior to construction remains partially hidden
    from the drying effects of the sun most of the year.
    
    Problem : ugly greenish/dark brown discoloration on what would
    otherwise be a silvery driftwood color on the rest of the deck...    
    
    WHAT CAN I USE TO PERIODICALLY REMOVE this mildewey growth and at
    least make it look clean ?
                   
    
    thank you.....
    
    joanne

  Several manufacturers sell "deck whiteners" for this purpose, though
  these will bleach the wood somewhat in the process of removing the
  mildew.  The result is that it will not be the rich color of the
  original new wood, and it may even turn out lighter than the weathered
  areas. You could probably mix up your own deck whitener by diluting
  bleach and adding some baking soda, though I don't know what the
  proportions would be (this is also the basic formula for Tilex, X/14
  and other mildew treatments).

  Incidentally, we've used both Cuprinol and Wolman wood preservatives,
  and found that the Wolman resists both weathering and mildew better
  than Cuprinol -- at least in our location on red cedar.

     If time and money were no object, what is the best way to 
prepare/paint shingles so that they don't need to be repainted/restained
every few years?  Starting with new shingles is an acceptable possibility. 

     I want to put on the color that matches the rest of the house.  

     Do shingles warp and paint lift from them mainly because of absorbing 
and releasing water?  Would priming the shingles on all sides and edges 
seal them and prevent this?

     Would epoxy paints be useful in this application?  Can the colors be 
matched as with house paint and stain?

     If a house is supposed to be able to breathe through its exterior 
walls, doesn't painting the bottom of each course of shingles effectively 
seal the exterior wall?  How can any vapor from within escape, other than 
by lifting the paint off somewhere?  Would painting the shingles
individually, before nailing them up, solve this problem, if it is a
problem?

     _If_ the theoretical best way of doing this is tolerable, I will
actually try it on the part of the garage, and then of the house, that
always need work the soonest. 

    
    A properly done paint job should last at least 7 years, stain somewhat
    less.  If you need to repaint "every few years", you have some other
    problems.
    
    Excessive moisture inside the house, unless stopped by a vapor barrier,
    will cause paint failure as it migrates through the walls and through
    your siding.  Paint does allow moisture to pass through, but not in the
    quantities that a normal house interior can produce.  You need to stop the
    moisture before it gets to the siding.
    
    Poor preparation is another major culprit.  On new siding, a coat of
    primer and 2 finish coats is the recommended approach.  On existing
    paint, you may be dependent on how good the earlier coats are. 
    Scraping and sanding peeled areas and then priming IMMEDIATELY, is
    important.  Bare wood left to weather a few days will not hold paint as
    well.
    
    Some woods also hold paint better than others.  Paint holds beautifully
    on my cedar shingles,  but I scrape and repaint my pine trim every 3 or
    4 years.  
    
    Of course, you could always go with white cedar and don't do anything
    to it!  It will hold up just fine.   It only comes in one color,
    however 8-) .
    
    By the way, there are semi religious discussions in this file about 
    oil vs latex.  My father, who was a  painter in the CBs, has used both
    on his 34 year old house (which easily goes 8 years between paint
    jobs).  He found no difference in longevity, so he uses latex, 'cause
    it's easier (for him).
    
    Bob      

    I would avoid paint and go for a solid color stain.  They last
    a long time, and when the time comes to restain, almost no preparation
    is necessary.
    
    		Steve

    I second .2. If I were ever in the position to start with new wood, I
    wouldn't even consider paint, I'd go with stain. My neighbor uses solid
    color stain and every 5 years or so he just puts another coat on. When
    I bought my house 6 years ago, I repainted the whole thing and what a
    pain that is/was! With stain there's no scraping and there are a lot of
    nice colors in solid color stains.
    
    IMHO FWIW!
    
    P@
    

    re: .2, .3
    ...but there are some of us around who still prefer paint.  How
    do you make a paint job last?
    
    Rule #1: use good paint.  My personal preference is Benjamin Moore.
    	Given the amount of work involved in putting it on, the incremental
    	cost of good paint is absolutely trivial.
    Rule #2: prepare the surface well; do the priming, sanding, scraping,
    	etc.  

    If you do these things and the paint peels, as .1 says, look elsewhere
    for your problem.  Paint peels if moisture from inside the house
    tries to get out through the wall, hence the importance of vapor
    barriers.  Paint can also peel if, for example, you put latex over
    oil.  I know that with modern latex paint this is "supposed" to
    work, but personally I'd never take the chance.  It's just too much
    of a pain if it doesn't.
    
    And there are some times when you seem to do everything right and
    it peels anyway.  My uncle had this problem on the north wall of
    his house.  He'd paint it, with good surface preparation and good
    paint, and it would peel.  Guaranteed.  His problem may have been
    lack of a vapor barrier, I don't know.  He finally gave up and
    put vinyl siding on the house.

We need to repaint the trim on parts of our house (already).  Particularly the 
parts on the southern exposure, which are quite heavily chalked.  Does anyone 
know the merits of various brands of exterior trim paint as far as chalking is 
concerned?  The paint is basically in good shape physically (no peeling), but 
it's about 5 shades closer to white than when we originally painted it.

Alternatively, does anyone know of any additives to keep paint from chalking?

Paul

    Every two years or so, Consumer Reports does a pretty objective
    (for them) article on exterior paints, summarizing the results
    of a scientifically sound exposure test conducted to panels under
    controlled conditions.  You can probably find the most recent
    results in your local library, or maybe some noter is a subscriber.
    
    pbm
    

    I think some chalking is generally considered desirable - the surface 
    of your house stays cleaner because dirt can't build up.  You may
    decide your situation warrants a low-chalking paint, of course,
    but realize that chalking is not necessarily a bad thing.

    I concur with .2, chalking on exterior paints is a feature that is
    built into various flat exterior paints.  The rain water eventually
    "washes away" the chalking thus revealing clean paint.
    Perhaps you want a gloss or satin finish paint which tend to not chalk
    until they are well into their life cycle (4-5 years or more).  If you
    do not want chalking, then go with a gloss or satin.
    
    I have used Masury Satin finish Oil based on my house and after 3 years
    it has not chalked/cracked/blistered and looks quite new.

    In looking at note 1111 and doing a title search I have not found
    what I am looking for, so here goes.
    
    My house is in need of painting and I am wondering if it is worth
    the time and expence of priming first.The end result is eventhough
    I don't enjoy painting, I would rather do it rite and forget about
    it for 10 years or so. Here are the particulars.
    -The siding is cedar clapboard 
    -The paint is well adheared except there are alot of spots where
     there appear to be air bubbles between the vertical score marks.
     It looks to me like the previous owners used an oil base paint
     on a surface that was not perfectly dry. 
    -I will be painting a lighter color than what is there now.
    -I plan on washing/scraping with a high pressure water gizzmo before.
    

    I got a bunch of estimates to repaint my house this summer.  We have 
    narrowed it down to 2, based on friends recommendations, price and
    our impressions of the people.
    
    Now, the quandry...  
    
    1 contractor included all windows and the interior of our screened in
    porch.  But, he will only be doing 1 coat on the house.  (We are going
    to use the same color.  It is an OK color, and we want to minimize
    any possible show through (it is currently dark red).
    
    The other contractor uses 2 coats, but does not include windows nor
    porch.  
    
    So, is there any big advantage to 2 coats or 1 if we are keeping the
    same color??  
    
    thanks,
    jeff
    

    I looked in the Exterior paint direectory and did not find anything
    sililar to my question so I will post this here.
    
    I am looking for suggestions on brands of exterior brands of paint.  I
    will be painting a 70 year old house this year and would like to use
    the best possible paint.  Any suggestions would be appre.
    
    Rick
    Z

    I think there have been notes on this before, but I'm not sure where.
    Everybody seems to have their personal favorite.  Mine is Benjamin
    Moore.  

    
    	Well, let me tall ya...  As I speak, I'm sitting in my diningroom
    working between going outside to see how the painters are doing on my
    house.  We were going from chocolate brown (a color I've disliked for
    the three years we've owned this house) to a light brown.  Because of
    this, and that the clapboard was pretty dry, I specified that a coat of
    primer was to be used before the final coat.
    
    	The primer is white, but frankly, they put it on rather sloppily.
    It varies in thickness from very-white to not really thick enough to
    make me happy.  I was concerned that this would show through on the
    final coat, but the one wall that is now done (and done early enough
    today that is is well along the way of being dried) looks very good.
    That "one coat covers all" stain (latex, if it makes a difference) is
    living up to its name.
    
    	If you're repainting/restaining with the same color that is on your
    house now, perhaps just the one coat will be enough.  Are both
    contractors going to use the same brand?  If so, why not get some of it
    yourself, paint a small area (couple feet by a couple feet) and see how
    it looks after it has dried?
    
    								-craig

    Maby I should explain my situation a little better.
     To start with the sideing is not clapboard, it's cedar shingling.
    Thus it is a series if vertical grooves for the entire width. So
    once I scrape it I will have 50% (maby that's a little extreme)
    bare wood. So what do you think, will primeing be of any value here?
    Or should I just go ahead and paint over the whole mess?
    
                                                   Thanks
                                                     GUY

    
    We have a house that's about a mile from the ocean.  The house was
    built four years ago, a separate shed was built last fall.
    
    We recently hired a painter to remove all of the mildew (he did a
    great job) and to stain the house for protection.  We talked with
    him about doing nothing (rewash every so many years), put on a 
    clear stain or a color stain.  He recommended the semi-transparent
    with a color and we went a long with his recommendation except that
    we changed it to semi-solid after hearing numerous stories of
    people having to re-stain a year later because the semi-transparent
    had faded so quickly.
    
    The house now has one coat of Cabot's Driftwood Gray Semi-solid
    and when you look at thehouse straight on it looks like a nice
    gray color with the wood grain showing through, but when you
    look up at the house, say looking at the second floor from the
    ground, it looks like it was not stained - the same thing happens
    if you look at the lower boards from underneath.  In addition,
    the shed (which is newer) took the stain much better and you
    can see the stain straight on as well as looking up to it.
    
    The painter tells us it looks great and if we want better coverage
    he will have to do a second coat of a semi-solid/solid mix at
    about 20% more money.
    
    Does this match anyone else's experience with semi-solid stain?
    Also, shouldn't the painter have advised us ahead of time
    of this phenomenon?  Any suggestions?
    
    Thank you,
    Sue
    

    I used Cabots semi-solid stain on my house 5 years ago. I needed to put
    a second coat on to get the look I wanted. Big difference between the
    first and second coat. Now, after 5 years, the house looks like it might
    need another coat in a year or two. By the way, I stained over red
    cedar clapboards, rough side out.  I have a 36 X 26 Garrison Colonial.
    First coat took 14 gallons. Second coat took 8 gallons and ALOT less
    time.
    
                                       Bill

    
    Guy-
    
    	I'm not an expert by any means, but if I had that job to do, I'd
    prime it.
    
    - When using a lighter color, you'll probably get better coverage with
    the paint if you prime first (and primer is cheaper than regular paint.
    - Bubbled up paint?  something's there that's preventing proper
    adhesion. It would probably be a good idea if you spot primed these
    places with a white pigmented shellac like KILZ or BIN prior to an
    overall primer coat.

I'm getting ready to paint my house (big two story Colonial; 3 stories in
back due to sloping ground), and I've been reading this note about spraying.
Several replies mention the Wagner but they didn't mention model numbers,
so I'm not sure if they were talking about the smaller Wagner sprayers or the
larger ones.

I was looking at the Wagner 355B yesterday at Spags.  It supposedly handles
heavy paint and has an adjustable nozzle.  There is supposed to be a new
version out called the 355E.  Has anyone had experience with the 355B or E?

Allen

One of the painters to give us an estimate said he uses the "spray-brush"
method.  He'll apply the paint with a sprayer, and then brush it in.  I 
suppose it's a compromise between the coverage of brushing and the speed of
spraying.

Opinions?  Will the result be a compromise between the two (which is probably
ok by me)?  Or will it be worse than either conventional method?

   Gary

    I spray painted (stained) an enormous 2 story colonial (in one day) for
    a friend using a Wagner sprayer.  While I don't know the  model number,
    the sprayer was bought at Spag's and had the following features:
    ( If  you  can't  identify it from the description I will ask my friend
    the model number)
    
    A Back-pack to hold paint/stain.
    
    Variable spray power. (you can choose one of 4? spray rates)
    
    The back-pack holds about 1 gallon, and reduced down-time for refill  
    considerably.  The variable spray power is  an  absolute  must,  in  my
    opinion, because : 
    
    1) The stain I was spraying was too  viscous  to  spray properly at the
    fastest (highest) power setting).  It did spray very well  on  the next
    to highest setting, though.
    
    2) With the lowest power setting I had enough control to spray right up
    to trim without a spray shield.
    
    You should wear a good cartridge mask, goggles and a stocking cap if you
    spray.  I was spraying blue stain and ended up looking like a Smurf.
    
    gjd

The sprayer you described sounds like the Wagner 355E.  I decided yesterday
to go with that one and will be getting it at Spags tonight after work.
Thanks for your comments (its nice to hear a success story before you go
out & spend $170 on something that might not work well).  Two of my kids
are painting my house, and they haven't been making a lot of progress with
a brush, so we're hoping the sprayer will speed things up.

You spoke of a cartridge mask.  I'm not sure what that is.  I have some of
the "medical type" face masks; are they sufficient?

Allen

Note 1079.56
    
    
>You spoke of a cartridge mask.  I'm not sure what that is.  I have some of
>the "medical type" face masks; are they sufficient?

    If you feel comfortable using the medical type mask, it's up to you.  I
    personally have been  trying  to abuse my lungs less lately, to make up
    for my youth ;^)
    
    Cartridge masks are sold at Spag's, as well as mail order.  They have 2
    replaceable screw-in filter elements.   The  body  of the mask is heavy
    black rubber, and seals very well  to  your face.  I think the price is
    about $25.  The mask also has  one-way  valves on it so when you breath
    in, the air goes through the filters, but  when you breathe out the air
    bypasses  the filters.  A replacement pack of 2  filters  is  $9.95  at
    Spag's.    The  filters last several years.  The mask  and  filters  at
    Spag's are made by American Optical ( A O for short  ),  the same brand
    sold  in many mail order industrial safety catalogs.  The masks  I  use
    are made by MSA (Mine Safety Appliance).  The bad thing about  these is
    that filters are hard to get.
    
    You should remove the filters from the  mask  and wash the mask in warm
    water after each use, and let it dry.    This  keeps the one-way valves
    clean.  Be sure the gaskets are in place  under  the  filter cartridges
    when  installing  the  filters.    In  fact,  I  suggest you  read  the
    directions;  this is one product where you can learn a lot by doing so.
    
    gjd
    

    I am going to ask the same question over again.  Also does any body
    have a consumer report test of exterior paints.
    thanks
    rick
    

    Consumers reports did exterior paints within the last two years.  Go
    to your local library, look in the Consumer Reports index or yearbook
    and find it away.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Elaine

    I think the last issue of Consumere Reports had reviews of exterior
    paint.  The only thing was this time they tested bright colors rather
    than white and brown and the other standbys.  So, if you have a
    victorian that you are about to paint lime green or you're interested in
    trim paint, you should be able to pick the issue up at the news stand.
    
    George

    I will be having my house painted on Sept 10, however I am still
    confused on one issue.
    
    Currently the body of the house is latex solid stain, Olympic Sage
    Green.  I want to stain it a lighter color, pale-to-medium beige. 
    Should I apply a "LATEX WHITE PRIMER" before staining?  I believe green
    is a difficult color to cover and I wouldn't want the green satin
    bleeding through the beige stain.  Another reason why I think the house
    should be primed is that currently there are some nail heads that have
    rusted through the green stain and I don't want this to happen again
    with my new paint job. 
    
    Will a base coat primer have a noticeable change in the stain color?
    
    I am planning on using Benjamin Moore products.
    
    THANKS!
    

    
    
    [moderator: please move as needed]
    
    I will be painting the trim and the wood siding on my house very
    shorty.  My question is .... can you mix any type of bug spray or
    insect chemicals into the paint/stain in order to keep those nasty
    critters away from the house, windows, soffits, etc.?
    
    Thanks.

    Since you're going to have to apply 2 coats anyway, just use 2 coats of
    stain.  I just did that, going from dark brown to off-white.  I used
    Benjamin Moore oil-based solid stain.
    
    I'd be afraid that some of the white might show through if you use
    white primer, and then stain it beige.
    
    /Don

I have seen additives that at least keep spiders away.  Check with a good
paint store.

				Steve

    	I've come up with a good way to paint the grooves in T 1-11: The
    company that makes the pad painters (great for the rest of the T 1-11!)
    also makes something for painting rough siding - it's a pad with short
    stiff bristles, about 3/4" long. This thing is oriented 90 deg. to the
    handle. There is a pad, about 4" high by 8" wide, of bristles, and a
    gap and then a single row of bristles. The single row is meant for doing
    the undersides of stuff and grooves. But, it is awkward because you
    have to hold the thing at 90 deg. to do the vertical grooves in T 1-11.
    This also prevents it's use on grooves with an extension pole. And
    using it near a window or piece of trim is awkward because of the pad
    of bristles.
    	Solution: cut all the bristles off, except the single row. Cut the
    remaining gizmo in two and trim off the excess where the pad was. Epoxy
    and bolt the single row of bristles to the remainder of the gizmo with
    the single row vertically (same as handle) oriented.
    	This thing works great! So, so much better than trying to do the
    grooves with a brush! (Based on recommendations here, I will not try to
    spray T 1-11. I want the stain job to last!)  - Chris

    the only thing I would suggest you look into is to prime with a "stain
    killer". It's basically a primer but is used to prevent stain from 
    bleeding through.
    I used it over window trim that was stained which I wanted to paint
    with latex paint. 
    
    Depending upon the color of the new paint, you may want to go with the
    stain killer. Suggestion - ask a paint store. That's what I did.
    			Cindy
    

	We just recently went from a chocolate brown to a much lighter brown
stain.  We did have a coat of primer (white) put on first, and the final coat
came out looking great -- no hint of any chocolate brown anywhere.

								-craig

    
    Over the last several years Consumer Reports has run a few tests.
    In all the tests both inside and out Benjamin Moore came out ahead
    followed by Sear's and Sherman Williams I believe.
    
    I usually save the reports, I'll see if I can dig them up.
    
    Cal.
    

    	In the September 1990 issue there is a BIG write up exterior
    trim paints and Benjamin Moore came out again.

    
    Primer before STAINING?? I've heard of primer before PAINTING! In any
    case, I just did my house this spring/summer from Sage green to a much
    lighter color Russet Pear which is still in the green/yellow family.
    The house is done in T-111 and requires two coats of stain to cover.
    Trying to cover primer with stain is going to be a problem. If you are
    doing the job over a rough surface like T-111, do yourself a favor and
    brush the first coat in and roll the second cost on. I sprayed the
    first coat on when I first did my house about 10 years ago. When
    spraying, the paint just sits on the surface and never really makes it
    into the wood. This time I brushed it in good on the first coat and
    the second coat really went on beautiful and fast with a roller.
    Obviously if you have siding of some kind, you will have to brush both
    coats on. The first coat is the most important! Do it right!
    
    john
    

	Re: .4  "Primer before STAINING??"

	Yup, that is what we did.  Both coats were brushed on.

							-craig

    >> "Pimer before STAINING??"
    
    Well I thought Stain soaked into the wood and was used to color the
    the wood.  Normally you cannot stain over paint because paint seals the
    pores of the wood and the stain cannot be absorbed by the wood.  
    
    To prime would mean to apply a paint like substance which would seal
    the pores and leave a surface which would aid the adhesion of paint to
    the surface.  If you were to stain over a primer, the stain would run
    off and not be able to soak into the wood because the wood is no longer
    porus.
    
    Along comes semi-transparent and solid stains which are a combination
    of paint and stain.  The stain soaks into the wood to provide some
    protection and coloring while the paint particles sit on top and help
    to close the pores.  A solid stain could almost be considered a paint
    product in the way that it would cover previous finishes.
    
    I would guess that you could use a SOLID STAIN on a primed surface but
    you could not use a semi-transparent or just plain old stain on a
    primed surface.  I believe that is what the origional disbelief about
    STAINING OVER PRIMER is all about???

	I have looked through the directory and keywords, and have
	been unable to find an answer to my specific question, so
	I thought I'd try here.
	
	
	We rented a power washer for our house and removed a good
	portion of the chipping paint.  We still have scraping to
	do where the power washer couldn't go.  My question is
	this, is it necessary to sand any areas of the wood before
	priming ?  If so, just the bare spots, or all of the wood?
	The house has cedar shingles.

	The paint dealer we talked to said no, but I have seen
	references to "scrape and sand" throughout the file...

	Thanks,
	Karen

    Has anyone with cedar shingles siding experienced 'bleeding'?  Last
    year I stripped (using Peel Away) 30 years of accumulated white
    paint and stained with one coat of solid stain (I'm planning to
    do a second coat next spring).  Recently I noticed a few small areas
    that had red/brown stains on it.  
    
    Is bleeding of freshly stained/painted cedar shingles a common
    occurence?  I'd rather spend some effort trying to prevent bleeding
    and then applying the second coat of stain, unless the noter community
    votes that a second coat of stain will prevent bleeding.
    
    
    

    I had a little "bleeding" of new cedar shingles that had been painted
    with one coat of primer and two coats of Mooreguard Latex.  It wasn't
    much and seemed to stop within a year.  I've since put another coat
    over it with no further bleeding.  I thought it was just because the
    shingles were new but from your experience perhaps it wasn't the
    reason.  
    
    It could be that your removing of the paint caused opportunity for
    moisture to get into places it hadn't been before.

    Here is another possibility.  It could be that you didn't neutralize
    the Peel Away completely in some spots.  
    
    I used Peel Away to remove many years and layers of paint on ten
    windows (6 over 6 = 120 individual window frames!!!) in my sun room.  I
    have since repainted and have noticed some bleeding through.  I am
    pretty sure it is in places where I wasn't as conscientious with the
    vinegar wash as I should have been.  It is pretty discouraging.....
    
    Ellen

    It is the peel away.  My brother-in-law used peel away and cleaned with
    Vinegar and now has a huge problem as the paint is actually not
    adhering.  He called P/A(DUmond Chem) and they indicated that vinegar
    is 1% or low % of the neutralizer where their much more expensive
    neutralizer is 20 or so %.  Essentially they say vinegar is not strong
    enough.  On the positive side, we had the same problem on our staircase
    (stripped w/ P/A and then painted, got bleed thru for awhile but it is
    diminishing over time.  I think I will paint another coat next spring
    and be fine.  Ken 

Re: .21

If that's so, you can buy acetic acid in a shop where they sell
photographic developing chemicals and mix it to the strength you need. 
That's the active ingredient in vinegar.  Wear gloves though, that's a
pretty brisk concentration.


                                  >>>==>PStJTT

    Just to update this, I used the Wagner 355E to stain my house. It is
    great, because:
    
        - the backpack lets you spray one gallon without stopping
        - you have one hand free for dry brushing
        - little overspray compared to using compressor/air sprayer
        
    I have not tried thicker paints, this was semitransparent, some body,
    not water, but not like oil or latex. I've used compressor/air plenty
    before and the key to these guys is getting paint to the right
    consistency and getting sprayer set up. Even with the wagnor I had
    to try two different tips and several different spray adjustments
    before I got the right spray.     

    Back to painting paneling...
    
    I realize it has pretty much been established that this is NOT the
    right thing to do, but in my case, it IS a quick fix until I can do a
    proper remodeling job. I've put three coats of primer on the paneled
    walls and in some places, there are still blotches of brown something
    (varnish?) coming through. I'm using latex primer and paint. Is there
    something I can apply that will stop this before I apply the paint?
    More layers of primer is obviously not the answer.
    
    Thanks,
    Liane

    For my 'temporary' panel painting (now 3 years old in some rooms) I
    used BIN as a primer, then one coat of latex color (Benjamin Moore) and
    had no problems.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    Thanks Barry! I'll check it out today at lunch. I *really* wanted to
    get this job done this weekend.
    
    Just another question, though. Is BIN a generic name? Just what is this
    stuff?
    
    Liane

    Gazing at the remainder of a gallon here in the basement-
    
    Zinsser BIN White pigmented shellac Primer Sealer Stain-killer
    
    dries in 45 minutes, vapor barrier, sticks to glossy surfaces
    
    Composition-
    
    	Pigment 32.75%
    		Titanium Dioxide 51%
    		Silicates 49%
    
    	Vehicle 62.75%
    		Pure White Shellac cut 3 lbs. per gallon
    		in denatured alcohol
    
    As I said, it smells great - be sure and keep windows open and don't
    drive after painting!
    
    	-Barry-
    

    I need to restain (?) my house this year.  What I have is a 4 year old
    house with cedar clapboards.  The seller told me that what is on the 
    house is a solid stain.  This stuff is cracking/peeling/flaking much
    like regular paint would do.  Does solid stain peel?  If so is the 
    treatment the same as always: scrape/clean, then reapply the solid
    stain?  Thanks for the info.
    
    
    Jack

       <<< SERENA::SERENA$DUA2:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 4223.0                                                              1 reply
SALEM::BOHANEK                                       13 lines   7-MAY-1991 08:29
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
     I checked all of the stain notes and didn't find any solid
    recommendations or negative comments regarding the various brands 
    of stain. Iam planning to stain my house this year with semi tranparent
    Cuprinol and was told by a couple of people to check out other brands.
    
    please provide your experiences with different brands.
    
    Thank you,
    
    Brian
    
    

    I agree with .7 - that the Sherwin Williams Solid Oil stain is one of
    the best stains I have ever used... I stained my house last year, and the
    coverage was great! Used a brush on my vertical rough ship lap.... 

    They have it on sale around this time of the year (normal $ 18+ and on 
    sale around $12+) 
    
    
    	Tom

    I'll be staining a deck, Builder's square recommended Thompson's semi-
    transparent.  They only carry Thompson or DAP.  The wood I'll be
    staining is fir.  Should I get the Olympic or is Thompson's an equal
    brand.  In 6-months I'll be staining the PT wood.
    
    Thanks,
    Julie
      

    Don't use Thompson's.  I've never heard anyone who used Thompson's say
    they liked it.  Usually they complain that it didn't last, didn't
    preserve the wood.
    
    I don't know anything about DAP.  I bought Cuprinol Deck Stain for my
    deck (but I haven't used it yet).
    
    Elaine

Our deck gets a lot of weathering: sun, water from the roof, water trapped
by the grill cover (when it's off the grill), and water collected on the boards
(because the so-called carpenter who built it didn't care which way the
wood cupped).

We started with low expectations, having been told that decks need to be
restained frequently (every year or two).  That's just the way that horizontal
exterior wood surfaces with lots of foot traffic behave, along with the 
restriction that deck stains are never solid stains.  Depending on how picky 
you are, the regular Olympic deck stain either meets or somewhat exceeds those 
expectations.  We can survive another summer (whether it needs it or not), 
but it's certainly starting to get thin in spots.  We have some minimal flaking
on the rails, but none on the floor boards, even though we put on a very
heavy coat (exceeding recomendations).  We haven't tried the water-sealant 
type of deck stain.

If you find a deck stain that looks good for more than two years, let us
know.  

   Gary

    An unrelated bit about wood finishes.
    
    Four years ago I made a garden walk out of rounds of greenwood from
    a freshly cut down elm tree. I wanted the walk to last so I soaked
    the rounds in CWF ~10 min each then put them in the ground where the
    walk was to be. I am now building a green house where the walk used to
    run so this required the path to pulled up I was amazed to find zero
    rot on the side of the log rounds buried in the soil a untreated
    redwood 2x6 used to border the walk already showed signs of rot
    needless to say I am pretty impressed with the way CWF protected the
    wood.
    
    You mileage may vary...
    
    -j

What prep work should be done before restaining (cleaning, etc.)?
We stained our new cedar siding two years ago, and I would like to put on a 
second coat (Cabot, semi-transparent).

It's a two story cape, and I'll be doing a lot of it from an extension ladder.

							-- Chuck Newman

    My wife and I built a log home in Vermont last fall.  The manufacturer
    of the kit used to recomment CWF to stain/preserve the log exterior
    surfaces.  Now, they recommend Sikkens brand.  I've gotten a few small
    samples of Sikkens to try for color, but, other than the log home
    company's recommendation, I know nothing about the product (other than
    it is EXPENSIVE, at more than $30 per gallon).  The company said they
    were changing away from CWF, which they'd pushed for several years,
    because many of they log home owners were having to re-coat their homes
    after only a couple of years.  They suggested the Sikkens will last
    twice that long or more.  
    
    They are suggesting we preserve the house later this summer/fall... but
    I am inclined to wait until the log's natural color reaches what I
    want.
    
    Does anyone here have any experiece with such a large stain/preserving
    project, and what brand did you use?
    
    thanks
    tony

    
    	My husband and I stained our log cabin last summer.  I had
    originally wanted to leave it natural, but it go soooo dirty.  The
    paint store suggested that we wash it with TSP.  It was much dirtier
    than I thought.
    	We stained using Cabot's semi.  It allows the knots to show,
    but is almost the same color as the logs.  I wanted to keep it light,
    as we have trees alround.  This is in the White Mountains.
    
    	Linda
    

    
    Based on my experiences over the years, most of the products on the
    market - Olympic, Sherwin-Williams, Cuprinol, and Thompsons, have all
    compared fairly equally.  However, I did recoat an exterior porch last
    year with a Cuprinol over a previously coated pressure treated deck, 
    which had been originally coated with an Olympic semi-transparent stain
    and preservative.  This did not hold up well.
    
    I am currently residing my new addition and entire house.  The best
    products on the market as recommended by the wood industry, as well as 
    many local fine dealers are Sikkens and Penafin.  They are both
    expensive, however contain the extra ingredients needed to combat the 
    rays from the Sun.  The cheaper products protect well from the rain, 
    however, do not work well as protectorants against the ultraviolet
    rays.  I have been told for instance, that most of the brands add a
    parafin type product to wax the wood and seal against moisture.
    
    I bought all the Penafin natural redwood stain the particular dealer
    had, and because it was so expensive and was made on the West coast, I
    was able to get a good deal.  If I had the money, I would invest in the
    best, and that is Sikkems.

    Thanks for the replies... I'm sure we'lll wind up using Sikkens
    (ouch!), but, it's certainly not carved in stone yet.
    
    Important question... what kind of coverage did you get (how many
    square feet per gallon).  I know the answer will vary depending on a
    lot of factors.. but, I don't want a HUGE surprise.  (like the time I
    bought some Sears Latex which said it'd cover 450 sq. ft, and hardly
    covered 100 per gallon!)
    
    thanks again.
    
    tony

I remember looking into Sikkens when we built our house (decided it was too 
expensive).  The thing that makes it different is that it supposedly isn't a
wood sealer, in the sense of stains or other sealers.  It's actually a 
colorless, transparent, ultra-violet opaque PAINT.  It doesn't soak into the
wood so much as it creates a solid barrier adhering to the outside of the wood,
like regular paints.

It was quite obscure 6 years ago when we built our house, and I've heard much 
more about it lately, so I would guess that it lives up to its claims pretty
well.

Paul

    MODERATOR: I BELIEVE THIS SHOULD BE A NEW NOTE UNDER 1111.70
               PAINT-EXTERIOR
    
    
    I was ready to stain my outdoor pressure-treated picnic table 
    last weekend, when my neighbor came over and told me that I
    better be using a "special" stain for outdoor furniture.  He said
    by using a regular stain (Cabots, etc.) the color would rub off
    on the clothes of users.  Supposely there's a paint/stain out
    there especially made for picnic tables, etc.
    
    Is this true?  Any similar experiences outhere?  Recommendations?
    
    

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Bruce [co-moderator]

    I need to redo my cedar deck with a waterproof/mildrew/sunblock
    stain.  I was looking at CWF (Flood products) but came across a
    brand by SIKKENS called Cetol Dek.  Has anyone had any experience
    with the SIKKENS products?  I know SIKKENS is expensive but is it
    worth the additional cost, as oppose to CWF, etc.?
    
    Thanks,
    

Hi,

My painter is at my house now preparing everything for painting.  I have a 
1935 Tudor stucco home.  I've replace all rotted brick mold, sills, jams 
etc.  Nows the time to decide how many coats of paint to use.  If we go with
one coat on the trim (for sure we'll use only one coat on the sashes) the 
painter will use a specific brand of paint.  If he does two coats he'll use a 
brand that goes on much thinner therefore requiring two coats.  What is the 
potenial advantages of two coats vs. one?  It will cost about $300 to do two
coats.  This is an exterior job only.

Hey, if it were me I'd use a coat of a good primer, such as Zinnser "1-2-3"
and two coats of a high-quality paint.  But then again, I'm not fond of
repainting every couple of years.  In my opinion, one coat of paint on fresh
wood is just asking for trouble.

				Steve

I used SIKKENS Cetol for a stain job on my home in Europe. SIKKENS is well
known in the Netherlands, and has a solid reputation. It is, though, expensive.
I was satisfied with the result.

How it compares with U.S. brands, I don't know, since I have no experience
with U.S.-made paint products.

Date

    I have heard from a few people about staining over paint. I have asked
    around for details with no luck. Is there a stain that can stain OVER 
    paint?? I would guess it might go through the paint onto the wood.
    
    My home is a painted a light gray, not sure if it's latex, or oil based.
    
      
    Any info would be greatly apprec as I will be painting my home in a few
    weeks, and would like to avoid future scraping...
    
    - Peter

    Maybe if you were using "solid-color" stain.  If whatever is left of
    the original paint (after wearisomely scraping it...) is bonded well to
    the wood below.  Texture may look a little funny, depending on how much
    or how little of the paint is left.  Use a test area first, several
    square feet on the back side of the house to see how well/poorly it
    looks...
    
    Steve

    Thanks for the info on the solid color stain, I will try a sample
    paint as you suggested...

    My wife bought home some color charts and I fould that I could use
    the "solid-color" acrylic stain. about 30% of the house is badly
    chipped off (sunny side). The remaining 70% is OK.
    
    Have any of you used this solid color stain in this situation? And if so
    should I use the same light-gray color, or can I get away with using
    a new darker color?
    
    ALso the brand and price would be of help too.
    
    Thanks for any help...
    
    - Peter

    Peter,
    
    I recently (2 months ago) stained over paint on cedar shingles.  The
    paint was white, chalking, and "alligatoring".  I scraped and wire-
    brushed the severe areas, then rented a power washer ($30/day) and
    sprayed the entire house, just using water. (No bleach/TSP, etc).
    
    Two weeks later, we stained.  We brushed it on to insure complete
    coverage, instead of spraying.  Two coats covered 95% of the house.
    I had to put 3 coats on a small area where I scraped down to the bare
    wood.  It seemed to adhere well, and as of yet, there aren't any
    problems.  I guess time will tell if I've gotta do it again in 2 or 3
    years.
    
    We used a solid color alkyd stain (Navajo White, almost a coffee ice
    cream color) from Sherwin Williams on sale @ 12.99/gal.  We averaged
    around 300-350 sq. ft. of coverage per gallon.  The second coat
    naturally went much further than the first.  Your mileage may vary.
    
    Gene
    

I just bought a book by a master wood dyer (German, can't remember the name)
and he contends that there is no difference between stain and paint except the
concentration of the color solids in the carrier.  Stain is thin paint; paint 
is thick stain.

He says stain doesn't sink into the wood at all, that only dye does that.

    For just over eighteen years, my neighbor has been oiling and staining
    her kitchen cabinets (a very dark brown color on birch (?) wood).  We
    don't know for certain what the cabinets were made of.
    
    Now, while renovating and lightening all the colors in her house, my
    neighbor wants to paint the cabinets a very light almond color -
    probably in semigloss paint. 
    
    What has to be done to prevent the oil/stain from bleeding through the
    paint?  Will some type of sealer be sufficient?  What kind would be
    recommended?  Should she wipe them down with something prior to using
    the sealer?  She is of the impression that the cabinets must be
    stripped, then sealed and painted for good results.  How many coats
    of each would give good results?
    
    Any suggestions would be appreciated.  By the way, facing the cabinets
    with formica is beyond her budget.  Thanks for your help.  
    
    Chris

    Lots of discussion circulating around this topic elsewhere in this
    notesfile, see dir in 1111.69 and .70...
    
    But-
    
    It can be done...several ways, depending on how much work is
    acceptable.  I would:
    1.  Clean thoroughly, sanding where necessary to make *very* smooth.
    2.  Seal with any of a number of good shellac-type sealer-primers,
    (BINS, KILZ, etc to name a couple).
    3.  Paint to your hearts content.
    
    The points are to (1) make sure it's clean/smooth so the finish job
    looks good, and (2) make sure the color "undreneath" doesn't bleed
    through the finish coat.  Probably could use other types of undercoat
    or primer...whatever you prefer.
    
    On the other hand, if you really wanted to work at it, you *could*
    strip down to the bare wood...then you could use *any* topcoat you
    wanted regardless of color.
    
    Steve

    Anyone have any experience with BEHR semi-transparent exterior stain?
    
    I'm getting ready to stain my new shed which I sided with T-111.  
    
    Didn't see any mention of Behr in this note.  

    
    And since it's my preference to avoid paint whenever possible, if it was 
    stripped down to the bare wood, would the wood still have the dark color 
    of the stain?  If so, could it then be bleached, or otherwise lightened?
    I saw some colored stains at Somerville lumber the other day; don't
    remember the maker but one ofthe colors they offered was white.
    
    CQ
    

   Re: .1-  Thanks for the additional pointers and the info.
    
    Re: .2-  She really wants to paint them.  This lady does not have
             lots of time, money, or experience/skill with DIY projects.
             That's why I was hoping to confirm that she didn't have to
             use a stripper first.  The cabinets are not the best
             quality, so stripping and bleaching might not give good
             results even if she was willing to do the work.  
    
    Chris
    

    For what it's worth, I suggest:
    
    1. Clean the cabinets with any cheap petroleum based paint thinner. 
    This will de-grease and lift any "loose" stain/oil.  Be liberal with
    the thinner, and wipe up any residue with lots of paper towels.
    
    2. Prime with a GOOD alkyd base primer that's been tinted to the
    finished shade.  I don't think shellac would be the best answer.
    
    3. Finish with a GOOD alkyd base semi-gloss in two or three
    not-too-heavy coats.  I have had excellent experience with
    Benjamin-Moore primers and finishs.  I did the same with my cabinets,
    and they turned out great.
    

re: .-1

Care to elaborate as to why you don't think shellac would work?

While stain bleeding thru is different from knots in pine bleeding thru, I've
used shellac and it certainly stops the bleed-thru of whatever topcoat I use.


Your suggestions are certainly on the money. but I'm curious...


Chris

    I need to put a 2nd coat of latex stain on our addition (was done
    2 years ago with oil-based stain).  It's cedar shakes, and there's
    quite a bit of shrinkage that's occured over the past 2 years -
    thus leaving TONS of nooks and crannies.  I've got a Wagner power
    sprayer, but that was a lot of hassle when doing our house many
    years ago.  So, I've all but decided to brush the stain on....
    
    However, while at Builder's square, I noticed one of those tank
    sprayers that you pump up (like you would use for spraying 
    insectisides, etc)  - except this one was made for spraying
    stain (wider tip, a bit heavier duty).  This got me to thinking...
    
    Would it be possible to put the stain into this sprayer, pump it
    up real good and spray the stain onto the house, following it up
    with a wide brush to smooth things out?  This would appear to have
    lots of advantages over the Wagner method - no motor, no wires,
    much lighter, and probably much less cleanup and less of an overall
    mess.  I'd never thought of this method before, but with the
    nooks-and-crannies I have to do, and the fact the cedar is pretty
    thirsty, I thought I'd give it a go.
    
    Thoughts?
    
    thanks,
    andy
    

    I would think that the pump-sprayer method would be not much different
    than the Wagner power sprayer method.  I stained my home a couple of
    years ago with a Wagner, and I know exactly the way you feel about not
    wanting to use it again, and brush instead.  But with the pump sprayer,
    yeah, you don't have any electrical cords, but your going to have to
    stop and pump it numerous times.  As far as cleaning, you still have to
    clean the pump sprayer thoroughly with thinner/spirits.  Probably less
    parts, but the cleaning hassles difference overall probably won't be
    much different.
    
    I suggest doing what I'm going to do the next time I have to stain my
    home.  Call at least 8 to 10 of your friends, get 12 pounds of steak
    tips, 6 cases of beer, a dozen brushes, and go to town!
    
    John, who sprayed & brushed his house by himself over the course of a
          whole summer and swears that he'll vinyl side the damn thing
    	  before he'd do that again!

    One other benefit to using the pump sprayers is that they're cheap. I
    got one for waterproofing my deck and it was under $20. For that price
    you can get two, buy less steak/beer, and dispose of it instead of
    cleaning (or donate it to a neighbor who's willing to clean it as the
    cost of ownership)

    I'm putting up a wood ( t&g pine ) storage shed next week. I'll need
    to apply some type of wood protection product to cover the wood. Can
    someone tell me the difference between the following products 
    
    	wood preservtive
    	wood sealer
    	clear clear ( or transparent ) stain
    
    Thanks
    

    A little late on this one, but I just did my house and used Sherwin
    Williams 'Super Paint' flat latex. A sky blue over a darker gray. 
    One coat and it covered very well, looks great!
    
    
    

    My house has a "Forever" vinyl storm door.  It works very well, but the
    paint is coming off the vinyl, especially around the window/screen
    opening on the top half of the door.
    
    Does anyone have any suggestions on how to put paint on vinyl so that
    it will stick?  I asked the person at Sherwin-Williams and he was
    stumped.
    
    Dan Tobin

    
    How old is your "Forever" door? I've got one too. I didn't think they
    were painted though. I thought the plastic was white all the way
    through. If it's not too old maybe you should write to the company and
    see if they can do anything.
    
    Steve

    It is 7 years old, and no, it isn't solid white all the way through.

    
    
       Try a vinyl paint...The best place to go would be an autobody repair
    supply store. The re's one in marlboro(McNeil & sons). That's your best
    bet. I've painted many a vinyl goods this way. You'd even have a chance
    to change the color.
    
     -Al
    

This topic has been inactive for awhile.  But that's good.  Because
I'd like to ask anyone out there who painted pressure treated wood
2+ years ago how it turned out.  I'd like a comment from someone who
lives in the North and where the wood faced sun.

I'm planning a small porch lattice job and will tentatively forgo PT wood 
except for the rough framing and the base trim.  No one has convinced me
that PT wood can be painted.  The guy at Sommerville said basically
what's been said in this conference - wait 6 months and you can paint it.

But it occured to me that 6 months for most people is a long time to
wait, especially if they hire a contractor who would then have to make a
call-back.  Paintability must be worth something.  Worth enough so
some lumber entrepreneur would just store some PT wood out in back and
sell it later for a little extra.

I've never heard of such a thing so maybe it's not such a good idea.
But it does make me wonder whether the wait-six-months system really
works.  Comments?

Brian

    About 6 years ago I put up a deck but no sides, just floor and stairs;
    ALL PT wood.  We are in NH and part of the deck is in the sun most of
    the day.
    
    The next spring, I stained the floor and put up railings above the deck
    with PT lattice under the deck.  The railings and lattice were painted
    right away.  I used a CHEAP white latex primer followed by 1 coat of
    Sears Weatherbeater white latex paint.  Wish the h*** I had used a
    spray gun on the lattice.
    
    The only problem is with the stained floor, it is black in spots where
    water stays around a while.  The paint adhered well, has not flaked nor
    washed out.
    
    So, I put up PT lumber and painted it right away and have had no
    problems.  Perhaps the time it sits in the lumber distribution chain
    takes care of ageing.
    
    Luck,
    
    Dave

According to an article in The Family Handyman, a lot of PT wood is sold
still "wet" with the preservative.  They strongly recommend waiting 6 months
before painting.  They also suggest treating it with a weather-proofer material
that will repel water (as PT wood will soak up water and crack).

			Steve

    We painted the 4x4 pt posts of our south facing deck immediately after
    it was built. We used a latex primer and then Benjamin Moore latex
    semi-gloss paint. 
    
    After a year, the paint looks fine. From my experience, I wouldn't
    hesitate to paint pt wood right away.
    
    The posts, which range in length from 4-12 feet, have some checking; I
    don't know if that is what Steve meant in .10 about soaking up water
    and cracking.
    
    John H. 

    Could it be that the people who have painted their PT decks and so
    forth that have the paint still on them don't have the best quality 
    "genuine" PT treated wood but a not so deaply treated wood instead?
    
    My next door neighbor had "cheap" PT 4x4's bordering his walkway and
    they had to be replaced after about 4 years from the house being built
    when they were installed.
    
    My dad also has a PT deck that has lasted for years without any
    problems yet.
    
    Steve

Re: .12

Right, some PT wood isn't as well treated as others.  Look for the ".40 CCA"
mark, which tells you it has been treated at the full-strength level.

			Steve

    
    re .12
    
    The next door neighbor and your dad could have both had the same
    preassure treated wood grade. Wood lying on the ground is much more
    damaging then wood on a deck, that gets to dry periodically.
    
    re .13
    
    cca .40 is not the best grade. You can actually get 2.00 grade used to
    be submerged in water. cca .40 grade is good for building a deck, but
    if you want to bury posts in the ground that's always wet, then you
    might want to consider 1.00
    
    Mike

      To  confirm  what  .14  says  -- I have seen pressure treated wood
      advertised in .40 grade, for above ground use, and .60 grade,  for
      use in direct contact with the ground.
      
      Does anyone know what the .40, .60, 1.00, 2.00, etc means?

    The numbers are pounds of preservation per cubic foot of wood.

And the CCA stands for Chromium Copper Arsenate, the preservative used.

I had meant to say in my earlier note that you should not accept PT wood
whose rating is less then .40 CCA.

				Steve

    
    There's a new process for making PPT wood. It uses different chemicals,
    which are much less harmfull. From what I've read the Govt may require
    this new PPT wood for environmental reasons. The cost currently is
    about 3 times the cost of current PPT wood, but it will problaby come
    down, when more widely used.
    
    Mike

Many of the cheap PT "landscape timbers" have some minimal amount of treatment,
less than .40.

    
    re .19 -- they rot, too; take my word for it...
    

    Probably a stupid question but since they make molding out of plastic now
    (as well as wood) do they make landscape timbers out of plastic also?
    I've seen the plastic molding and it's hard to tell if it's painted
    wood or fake.  I would imagine plastic would last allot longer when in
    touch with the ground.
    
    Obviously they wouldn't be for any load bearing applications but
    strickly for looks (like as a driveway border for a gravel driveway..)
    
    Steve

�    Probably a stupid question but since they make molding out of plastic now
�    (as well as wood) do they make landscape timbers out of plastic also?
�    I've seen the plastic molding and it's hard to tell if it's painted
�    wood or fake.  I would imagine plastic would last allot longer when in
�    touch with the ground.
    
    I wouldn't be surprised.  I've heard of recycled plastic being used to
    make park benches.
    
�    Obviously they wouldn't be for any load bearing applications but
�    strickly for looks (like as a driveway border for a gravel driveway..)
    
    Depending on the plastic used and possible additives, it would be quite
    possible to use plastic timbers in structural application.

>�    Obviously they wouldn't be for any load bearing applications but
>�    strickly for looks (like as a driveway border for a gravel driveway..)
>    
>    Depending on the plastic used and possible additives, it would be quite
>    possible to use plastic timbers in structural application.

      Didn't This Old House visit an all-plastic experimental house with
      plastic studs, etc.?  Clearly this  IS  possible.   If  it  became
      acceptable it might also be an excellent way to re-cycle plastic.

re: Note 4577.0

 I also have a Forever door that the paint has worn off. I wish to touch
it up and would like to know Dan's results before doing so.


 Thanks
 Ed Orr

    I just pressure washed my house preparing it for new paint this sprng. 
    It is shaker cedar siding with T1-11 at the ends.
    
    Most of the loose paint came of, but there is more prep to be done.
    It appears that the areas that were the worst are those is direct sun
    for long periods. The paint behind bushes that never get sun, but do
    get wet is in good shape. Areas in the sun flake right off. Is this
    a sign of poor quaility paint?
    
    I plan on being there for a few years to come, so I would like to make
    this job last by having a well prepared surface, and using good quality
    material.
    
    Looking for opinions/experience on the following.
    1) Recommended surface cleaner. Bleach, TSP or just water.
    2) Primer of oil base or other, and mfg? Prime only bare wood or all? 
       Are there bonding agents or enhancers such as those in the auto paint 
       industry?
    3) Color is flat harvest gold applied by brush or pad. 
       Paint of oil, latex or apoxy?  Benjamine Moore, California or ?
    4) Temp. and humidity. What would be concidered the ultilate, cool (50) or
       warm (70) temps, and dry (20) or average (50) humidity.
    5) Now for the most inportant. The T1-11 on the ends. This appears to
       be the worst of all. Practically tripped all the paint...that's how
       well it held. The garage is also T1-11 and has sure signs of
       peeling. Seems this stuff was not ment to be painted. How should
       this be delt with, just as any bare wood would?
    
       Thanx a bunch, Dave'
     
    
    
             
    

    
>    Most of the loose paint came of, but there is more prep to be done.
>    It appears that the areas that were the worst are those is direct sun
>    for long periods. The paint behind bushes that never get sun, but do
>    get wet is in good shape. Areas in the sun flake right off. Is this
>    a sign of poor quaility paint?
 
	More like old paint.  The side that gets the sun recieves the most
	amount of damage.  You should see the south wall of my house.  The
	cedar shingles are so bad that I'm replaceing them this year.
   
>    1) Recommended surface cleaner. Bleach, TSP or just water.

	Heat gun and a scraper.  This is a long, painful process but it
	will do the best job.

>    2) Primer of oil base or other, and mfg? Prime only bare wood or all? 
>       Are there bonding agents or enhancers such as those in the auto paint 
>       industry?

	If your paint is peeling, it's most likely latex.  You can't put 
	oil base paint over latex.  Oil base soaks into the wood, latex
	covers the wood.  Oil will not soak into latex.  
	
	Peel as much of the paint as possible (for the best job).  It's
	a nasty job!  Prime all exposed wood.  Primer is cheap enough, so
	you may even want to two coats.  If you don't prime well, the
	wood might bleed through your paint.  If you have to touch up your
	paint job, it might show.  Professionals paint whole strips before
	the paint dries to prevent/reduce variations in the shade/color.

>    5) Now for the most inportant. The T1-11 on the ends. This appears to
>       be the worst of all. Practically stripped all the paint...that's how
>       well it held. The garage is also T1-11 and has sure signs of
>       peeling. Seems this stuff was not ment to be painted. How should
>       this be delt with, just as any bare wood would?

	I'd go with oil base stain with a water sealer mixed in (such as
	Thompsons).  Stains come in a variety of colors and look like paint 
	(to me).  The wood should be dry, as in no rain for several days,
	and the temperature above 50�.

When we had our house painted, the painter used oil primer even though it
had previously been painted with latex.  The finish coat was latex.
It's held up pretty well.  I don't see how oil paint can soak into the
wood when there are already several coats of paint.

Does anybody have the phone # for the Sikkens or Penafin products? Or a distributer
in the New England area?

Thanks,

    I know of two Sikkens places.  
    
    In Concord, MA: Phillips Hardware.  508-369-3606.  Ask for Dan Schmidt.
    It's on Commonwealth Ave, in West Concord.
    
    In Worcester, MA: Worcester Paint and Decorating.  508-757-4511.
    It's on Chandler St.
    
    Elaine

    re:6
    
    What I am doing is taking this job side by side. One end is complete.
    Scraped as much as possible, used Cabots oil base Problem Solver
    primer, and latex finish coat over that. Looks mint so far, but lots
    of work. Coverage was good, but I'm wondering for durability.
    
    Is one finish coat sufficient? If not, can a second coat be added, in
    the fall, or spring of next year? I've got so many projects going on I
    don't think I'll have time to immediately go back and second coat the
    whole job.
    
    What are the general thoughts on one vs. two coats?
    
    Dave'
    

	    The primer you put on is one coat.  If your paint job looks 
	good (I hate painting), I'd leave it be.  Five years between paint
	jobs is supposed to be good enough to keep your house looking good.
	You could take cre of lots of other stuff in between.

					Tim
 

    Has anyone ever done sponge painting of walls.  I am thinking of
    doing my bathroom that way, but have been able to find little
    info on how to do it.
    
    Also, how can you tell if wood is pressure treated.  There are
    intials on the wood that say TP, but not PT.  Does this still
    mean its pressure treated
    
    

    I sponge painted my basement recreation room last year.
    Came out looking VERY nice and was suprisingly easy to
    do.  The Family Handyman magazine had a nice article on
    sponge painting within the past two months.

	    Pressure treated wood has a definite green tint to it.  If this
	is older wood, the tint may have faded.  PT is significantly more
	expensive than non treated wood and is designed for outdoor use so
	TP might stand for a companies name and nothing more.
	
					Tim

    re.2
    >>....green tint..
    Not always, I have seen and used brown tinted .CCA40 PT lumber Sunwood[tm]
    is one brand that comes to mind.
    
    -j

    I can't tell if its green or not.  Its sort of greyish now.  I just
    want to make sure we didn't get the shaft when we built out home.  We
    specified a PT deck, and I just don't know how you can tell. 

    
    If it's grey now, then it's pretty dry. It sure isn't green.
    
    Mike

    re: 5
    
    Does that tell me whether or not its PT?  I would assume PT would
    stay a yellow wood color, not turn grey.
    
    

    My PT deck, as it aged, lost its green color and did turn to a gray, so
    what you have might be normal PT.
    
    Eric

    I had to do some cutting on the 27 year old deck that came with the
    house when it was built.  The outside of the entire deck is grey where
    it wasn't stained, but amazingly the inside of a 2x8 that I needed to
    cut was still a greenish definately P.T. looking color.
    
    Maybe cut a hidden spot and check the internal coloring?
    
    Steve

	re .8  They had PT lumber 27 years ago?  And I thought it was
	a pretty new idea.

					Tim

    We are having our house stained. The stain is going over new cedar
    siding. The contractor is recommending oil based STORM brand solid 
    stain to protect the wood followed by a coat of latex stain for
    durability. I never heard of using a combination of oil and latex
    like this before. Any comments?

    Benjamin Moore, for one, recommends using Latex stain for restain
    work.  A second coat is pretty close to restain in my opinion.
    
    The reason Ben gives is that the oil stain is designed to be
    absorbed into the wood, pretty thoroughly at that, leaving a
    pigment behind for color (this gets chalky over time).  Recoating
    with oil when the wood has already completely absorbed the
    original oil means you get a dried outer layer, a never dry
    inner layer, and the wood.  The never quite dry inner layer is
    not good.  The latex "film" dries quickly and completely, with
    less intended to be absorbed, making it the better choice for
    restain work.
    
    I don't wish to debate the above (partly because it doesn't sound
    quite right to me and my old school thought that oil is always
    better than latex) mostly because this is the word from Ben Moore
    reps and not me.  However, I've restained several homes following
    this advice and the results (and durability) have been great.  I
    tend not to argue with experts, good results, or satisfied
    customers.  Sounds like your contractor has heard the same stuff
    as me; I'd say take his advice.
    

I know it was around ~20 years ago.  Except this stuff was reddish brown, not
green.

-Mike

FWIW, "Storm Stain" is, I believe, a line made by Olympic.

			Steve

    Well, last fall I entered the note about those pump sprayers
    and putting on solid-color stain on my house.  I did try it, but
    it was a miserable failure.  The stain was just a tad too 
    thick, and it just dribbled out.  Thinning it allowed it to eventually
    work, but too thin to really cover/work.  So I bagged the idea, and
    decided to go with the airless sprayer.
    
    It's now spring, and the stain is still in my garage.  Time to
    finally do it.  I'm still really against spraying because I don't
    wanna hassle with all the masking, cleanup, noise, etc.  My
    real problem is getting into the open spaces between the cedar
    shakes, where the spaces have expanded due to shingle shrinkage.
    I tried using a fairly flexible 4" brush, but couldn't get all the way
    into the gaps.  Does anyone have any suggestions on a good
    brush/whatever setup to get into the small 1/8" or less openings
    without going the spraying route?  Is there a special flexible
    brush?????
    
    thanks,
    andy
    

    The deck on my 27 year old house is probably the same 27 years old as
    the house (from the looks of the house they didn't do "anything" to it
    in that entire time frame).  But it _may_ be newer.  I just know the
    wood is badly splintering on the outside, but the inside _was_ a
    greenish color and from how long it appears to have been there I
    imagine it would have to be pressure treated wood to have lasted that
    long.
    
    Steve

    It is generally recommended to stain new clapboards with oil-based
    stain, then to re-stain later with a latex-based stain, but I've never
    heard of doing the initial coat with oil-based and a follow-up coat in
    latex-based.  Personally, I would hesitate to do this.  I'd prefer to
    do the 2 coats in oil-based stain, then in a few years, re-stain with
    latex-based stain.  Actually, and this is what I did, which seemed to
    be the preferred method by everyone I've asked advice from, when I
    re-stained 3 years later, I used oil-based stain again,  Then, the next
    time, I'll change to the latex-based stain...
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    John
    

    
    
    Can you adjust the spray fan so its narrow and just
    snap a line in the cracks????
    
    
    JD

    Hi,
    	Which stores sell Benjamin Moore and/or Sherwin Williams ?
    	I have mostly seen Dutch Boy and Gidden in most hardware stores
        around Nashua area (Home Depto, Builders Square, Grossman etc.)
    
    Thank you,
    Robert
    

    I buy my Benjamin Moore paints & stains from Nashua Paint &
    Wallpaper Co. It's right off Main St.
    
    -- dick

    Spag's sells Benjamin Moore...best prices around that I know of.
    If you're buying any quantity, it might be worth the drive.

There is a Sherwin Williams store on Daniel Webster Highway in Nashua.

Nashua Paint and Wallpaper is, I believe, the only Benjamin Moore dealer
in the Nashua area.  I buy all my paint from them (and only buy Moore after
having tried several other brands.

				Steve

re .11:

Steve, you mentioned in another note that you like Behr products.

    That's for stain.  I'm not aware that Moore makes weatherproofing
    stains.
    
    		steve

    >>That's for stain.  I'm not aware that Moore makes weatherproofing
    >>stains.
    
    Steve, 
    
    I've used Moore clear deck sealer/stain on my cedar deck. Is that
    different stuff than what you mean? 
    
    Paul's True Value in Leominster, MA, Coldwell's in Berlin, MA, Discount
    House of Wallpaper in Clinton, MA are other sources (of little help to
    the NH folks) of Benjamin Moore products.
    
    I can't really say how well it has worked because I have no previous
    experience with competitive products or with white cedar as a deck
    material. Ten months after application, water does not bead or run
    off, some black mildew or mildew-like substance has shown up on boards
    that get roof runoff, and the cedar is, overall, weathering nicely. 
    
    John H.

When we had our house painted a couple of years ago, I picked up Benjamin
Moore paint at Spags.  The painter was really impressed with the price --
it was significantly cheaper than he could get locally (Boston area) even
with his contractor's discount.  I'm not sure if their prices are still as
good, but it's probably worth checking out if you're painting your house.
(BTW, I live in Boston and work in Nashua, so Spags is *very* inconvenient.)

    Bianchi's in Milford NH carries Ben Moore too, sometimes cheaper
    than Nashua P & W, sometimes not.
    

    .*,
    	Thanks for the pointers, now only if I could figure out an EASY way
    to scrapp-off old paint :-)
    
    
    thanks,
    Robert

    We are getting ready to paint our house.  We have never done this
    before.  I have read all the notes with the key word "paint".  There
    were some wonderfull suggestions for brand names, painting vs.
    spraying, types of brushes, washing before painting, etc.  However, 
    what I am looking for is what kind of finish paint should we use on
    the exterior (i.e., flat, satin, semi-gloss, gloss)?  Do you use 
    something different for shutters versus the rest of the house?  
    We tend to have a problem with mildew on the front of our house and I 
    know there is stuff you can add to the paint to help prevent this, but 
    is there a particular finish that would be better than others?  I'm 
    kind of thinking that a semi-gloss might not let the mildew adhere or 
    that it would at least wash off easier than on a flat.  
    
    Any suggestions out there (or pointers to notes already addressing 
    this issue)?
    
    Joyce

    When do you plan on painting your house,what type of house is it?what
    color  would you like to paint it?and what color is it now?And one more
    ?
    how old is your house?

    My husband used to do this for a living. I asked him about your mildew
    problem. He said it all depends if the mildew is from the inside or the
    outside. You can tell by removing a clapboard looking at both sides.
    If both sides have mildew, you have a venting problem which can 
    be fixed with little plastic vents that you would screw in. He said you
    could pick this up at any hardware store. If you have mildew on the
    outside only, that's where you'd have a problem. He said it wouldn't
    matter what type of paint you put on, the problem would come back.
    And unless it's some kind of new product, he's never heard of anything
    that would get rid of your problem. Also, before painting the area,
    wash the clapboards with 1 part bleach to 4 parts water to get
    rid of existing mildew. Hope this helps
    
    Good Luck
    Chantal

    We haven't set a definite time frame yet.  It will probably be
    sometime this summer or fall.  I would definitely like to get it done
    before winter.  We have a straight backed Gambrel.  It is currently a
    colonial blue with grey shutters.  I am not quite sure what color we
    will paint it yet ... we may stay with blue for the main color, but I
    definitely want to paint the trim white and the shutters any color
    other than grey.  Maybe black, maybe cranberrry, I'm kind of
    leaning for the black with maybe just the door cranberry.  The house is
    roughly 15 years old.  The siding is made out of that horrible masonite
    material (yuck).  Sometime in the future we would really like to change
    it ... but not this year.
    
    The mildew may be caused by a mixture of the two problems.  We have
    been told we should install some soffit vents in our attic, but the
    house only seems to mildew on the front side (shady side).  I have been
    told by several sources to make sure we wash it with "something" to
    kill the mildew before painting.  We will make sure we do this.  Thanks
    for the dilution ratio!
    
    Joyce
    

Yes, first wash with something to kill the mildew.  You can pick up a home 
remedy from these notes.  Anything with bleach.  Or there are commercial 
ones ,JOMAX,  for example.  When you have the paint mixed (latex) have them
add a shot glass of mildewicide.  It doesn't stop the paint from mildewing
entirely but it sure reduces it.  We had the same problem on the north side
of our house.

Stan

Just a comment - JOMAX contains a "bleach activator" - you still need to mix
it with bleach, it is not a mildewicide by itself.

Latex paint doesn't really need a mildewicide added.

			Steve

If you have most of the mildew on the shady side of the house, make sure 
you trim your shrubs back from the house by 2' or so. That will help air 
circulate and keep the surface drier so mildew is less likely to form. I 
did that a couple of years ago and it made a world of difference.

Masonite or similar siding......THAT may be you whole problem right there. 
Is the back of the siding and the cut ends *ALL* primed with oil base 
primer? NOT!!! most painters are very unlikely to do that before the siding 
is installed. The masonite is picking up moisture and holding it and 
probably causing your mildew problems from within. As suggested, pry off a 
clapboard (clapmasonite?) and see if the back is painted, mildewed,etc.

Residing yourself is time consuming, not tricky. I did my entire house, one 
side at a time, over several summers, working a weeks vacation plus some 
evenings. By the time the last side was done, it was a breeze. It is 
costly, but there is no major problems in the work itself. send mail for 
more details....or look at the notes on residing, I think I did a long 
disertation in here before on what to do and how.

    	Vic H

    
    I wouldn't get too over excited about the masonite siding. 
    I repainted my father's apartment building last summer.  The 
    siding was part masonite and part cedar shingles.  The cedar
    had as much if not MORE mildew than the masonite.  The problem
    was merely a result of minimal sunlight on the siding.
    
    Unless water has gotten behind the siding and soaked the masonite 
    you shouldn't have any problems with it.  Wash it with diluted bleach 
    as suggested and repaint.
    
    Good luck...
    Dan

    I'm pretty sure that the mildew problem is caused by two things.  One,
    it is the northern side of the house, so it does not get alot of sun. 
    Two, the shrubs are much too close and too large.  I have pruned them
    back, but they were just planted entirely too close.  We will probably
    look into replacing them at some point in time.
    
    But, back to my original question .... does anyone have recommendations
    on what type of finish to use? Flat vs. Satin vs. Semi-gloss.  Is it
    just a matter of personal preference?  Does one fade, peel or go on
    with more difficulty?  
    
    Come on ... I've never known noters to be shy when it comes to
    expressing their opinion! (insert smiley here)
    
    Joyce
    

    Okay, here's an opinion.  
    
    It probably depends more on the quality of the paint than on whether
    it's flat, satin, or gloss.  A gallon of Benjamin Moore house paint
    is going to be better than no-name $4.99/gallon house paint.
    It also depends on the particular color you get.  Some are more prone
    to fading than others, which ones again somewhat depending on brand.
    Given the amount of work involved in painting a house, the cost of 
    even the most expensive paint is just background noise.  Get the best
    paint you can find.  My personal favorite is Benjamin Moore oil-based
    high-gloss exterior house paint, but among the top manufacturers 
    choosing "the best" tends to be somewhat of a religious argument.
    By the way, I do not find the "high gloss" of the Benjamin Moore paint
    to be objectionable.  It's not all *that* high a gloss, and after a
    year or so it weathers to a more dull finish anyway.

    Dutch Boy is a brand name of Sherwin Williams.
    Same paint in a different can = Kmart Performer - Also made by 
    Sherwin Williams, i.e = same as Dutch Boy
    (I was a former K-Mart Manager)

I looked at all the other notes in here about painting concrete and
still don't have a definitive answer to my situation.

The fornt steps of my house are made of pured concrete.  They were previously
painted but the paint is now flaking off and needs repainting.  

What i need to know is how to prepare the concrete for painting.  I rather
not have to scour the concrete with any caustic chemicals because i have
shrubbery nearby and don't want them damaged.  Will a washing, primer and paint 
suffice?

Thanks.

/james

Try a wire brush in a hand drill to remove most of the remaining paint.

You might also think about adding texture to the new paint. Painted
concrete (or stone) can get slick when wet.

Mickey.

Can anyone provide some insight into painting cinder blocks?

Our house has an unfinished basement that we are beginning to upgrade.
There is a fireplace there as well. However, the fireplace is lined with
cinder blocks instead of bricks (who would do such a thing?).

Replacing the blocks with brick is not an option. The homes previous owner
had painted them white - but due to the size of the fireplace opening, conbined
with the fact that there is no fireplace "casing" to enclose any fire, smoke
has stained much of the cinder block.

Any suggestions or ideas? 

Thanks,
Paul

    
    How about tile?  The reveal around my wood fire was tiled by the
    installers with a black tile & grout.  stands up to the head and shows
    no soot.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

I've never seen a real working fireplace with just cinder block in the firebox.
It doesn't seem that it would be good enough to stand up to a good hot fire.
Most fireplaces are lined with fire brick up to the point where the flue takes
over.  Are you sure this fireplace is meant to function?  Does it have a flue
that goes all the way up a chimney somewhere?  Does it have a damper?  Silly
questions, but if it was just built for decoration, you might not ever be able
to build a fire in it.

But if it is a real fireplace, I would recommend consulting with a mason about
the right solution.  It seems that you would have to line the firebox with some
kind of heat resistent tile, like .1 suggests.

Elaine

>I've never seen a real working fireplace with just cinder block in the firebox.
>It doesn't seem that it would be good enough to stand up to a good hot fire.
>Most fireplaces are lined with fire brick up to the point where the flue takes
>over.  Are you sure this fireplace is meant to function?  Does it have a flue
>that goes all the way up a chimney somewhere?  Does it have a damper?  Silly
>questions, but if it was just built for decoration, you might not ever be able
>to build a fire in it.
>
Yep, its a real fireplace! Its got its own flue as well.

I haven't looked in close to see if anything "separates" the cinder from the
flue. I'm only interested in decorating the sides of the cinder blocks that
face into the open room. 

I know the fireplace was used by previous owners (from the smoke stains
on the white cinder).

Thanks,
Paul

    I misread your basenote and didn't realise that the actual firebox was
    built from concrete blocks.  In this case, any kind of tile in the line
    of radiant heat from the firebox will probably crack. 
    
    If you plan to make much use of it, there should be some protection
    between the fire and the concrete blocks or they will soon crack too.  
    Something you might find in an antique shop or a repro wrought iron
    shop are wrought iron firebacks/surrounds.  These were used with chimneys
    built of ordinary brick or stone to protect the masonry from heat.
    
    Any surfaces out of direct heat should be OK to tile, or you could use
    that brick veneer.   I've used quarry tile within 6" of a woodstove
    and that held up fine.
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
    

    I forgot to ask this question in a previous note about painting a
    previously stained door, and now I can't find the note.  Anyway, after 
    sanding this door, I plan to apply BIN which is oil based.  I had 
    planned to use a latex semi-gloss over the rest of the woodwork, but 
    am wondering if that would be ok to use on the BIN primer/sealer.
    
    Concensus in this note seems to be that it's ok.  It also appears that
    the best thing to do might be to paint all woodwork with an oil-based 
    semi-gloss.  I can be coerced into using an oil-based paint on all the 
    trim, if that's REALLY the best way to go.  Any suggestions?
    
    					Thanks,
    					Steve

    I wouldn't use the fireplace. Sorry...but, concrete just isn't the
    correct material for a firebox. I would re-build it to use firebrick.
    By the way, after a long, hot fire in my fireplace, the bricks will
    have a dull red glow to them. Concrete will crumble with high heat.
    
    Marc H.

There's no reason to use an oil-based paint.  Latex semi-gloss works fine
over BIN and similar products.

			Steve

    
    	It might not be cinder block!! I have seen my father re-build fire 
    boxes in furnaces with a block that resembeled cinder blocks.. You
    might check with a mason before doing anything!! 
    Ron
    

I wonder if it was built with the intention of using an insert stove,
rather than using it a a fireplace...

    I guess this is the most recent topic on the subject of creosote
    buildup on things like outside decks.  Hopefully people will still read
    this topic.  I'm completing my first winter in a new house with a wood
    stove, and the deck on the backside of my house is covered with
    creosote.  It's no doubt because we bought what turned out to be a
    crappy cord of unseasoned, non-dry wood several months ago, unlike what
    we thought we were getting.
    
    Are there any products on the market to get rid of this stuff, new
    since this note was first introduced in 1988?  Someone told us that all
    you need to do is give it a good hosing down, but that sounds too easy. 
    Thanks for your help!
    
    					George
    

    Hummmmmm First off, real creosote will burn the skin. Bad stuff .
    As far as the deck goes....how did the creosote get "on" the deck?
    Do you just mean soot?
    
    I would use mineral spirits to was off creosote. Water will not work on
    real creoste.
    
    Marc H.

I'm confused.  My first thought was that you stacked the wood on the deck, and
thought the black stains were from creosote that somehow "leaked" from the wood.
Then I thought maybe you meant that your woodstove chimney is dripping creosote
on the deck.  Then I began to wonder about whether you just have a mildew 
problem?  I burn less than dry wood all the time, and only have a creosote 
problem on occasion IN my chimney and stove, never on the outside of the house.


What does the stain look like, and how did it get there?  

    Hello again,
    
    I am planning on staining my house this year.  Though I've
    done my share of house painting, I've never stained a house
    before.
    
    
    
    The exterior of the house is covered with pine (possibly
    cedar?) tongue-and-grove boards.  
    
    There are several "knots" that are "bleeding" through the
    stain.
    
    
    Questions:
    
    1. What do I do to the knots before staining?
       Someone said I need to remove the mildew too?
    
    2. What is the best stain to use?  Yes, money is
       an issue.   I think I want to use a semi-transparent 
       stain to hide some of the old-ness of the siding.
    
    3. What is the best way to apply the stain?
    
    
    Any other tips would be greatly appreciated!!
    
    Thanks,
    Bob F.
    

    My house has cedar siding.  I've used transparent stain, and
    wouldn't recommend it.  It doesn't hold up well to the elements 
    ie: it fades.  Looks old before its time.
    I had to do it over twice in about 4 years.  My
    friend who is a professional (and makes excellent money) house painter
    recommended a 'solid' stain.  so, that's what i did, I put on a solid
    oil base stain and it's held up excellent for about 4 years now and
    still looks like new.
    He said on a deck is where you use the transparent stain.  As for
    the knots, don't know for sure, but the solid stain on my house also
    covered any defects there may have been.
    the solid stain is more like a paint,, but no chipping and pealing
    etc. 

>    recommended a 'solid' stain.  so, that's what i did, I put on a solid
>    oil base stain and it's held up excellent for about 4 years now and
>    still looks like new.

    I'm also about to re-stain my house.  Some of the painters I've 
    spoken with havs suggested going with one coat of oil based stain 
    followed by a second coat of latex based stain.  While another 
    painter thinks I can get away with only 1 coat (oil/latex, I'm not 
    sure which).

    Should the outer coat be oil or latex?  Does it matter?

    Thanks.
    /phil

    I'm a believer in oil based stain, but I've been hearing that
    latex stain is pretty good. Plus cleanup is a snap. Anyone else 
    hear the same?
    /BD
    

We're having our house repainted; and had 5 contractors give quotes 
and recommendations.  No two of them were the same...it was very frustrating.
(I thought it was an exact science without any question as to what is best 
and what should be done.)

I have since gone to different paint stores (where these contractors were to
buy the paint).  I'm starting to get some answers more frequently than others:

- for the knots (only on our pine trim), use BIN to seal them.
- one of the better primer paints is Cabot's Problem Solver (oil based)
- a latex solid stain for the top coat

fwiw,
Dan

    you never put an water base product over an oil base product.
    it won't take.  You can however, put oil over a water base.
    I applied my stain two differenct ways at two different times.
    In the beginning I used a sprayer.  it was quick but messy.  Got
    on the areas of the house i didnt' want it to.  Plus, i think it
    was too quick, ie: when you use a brush or roller whatever, it sinks
    it more completely.  the last time, I used a brush and there was
    a noticable difference in penitration.

>    you never put an water base product over an oil base product.
>    it won't take.  You can however, put oil over a water base.

I always thought it was the other way around.  

All the contractors had their own opinion as well... But most said it
could be done both ways (which surprised me).

Dan

Re: .5

That's no longer true, given modern formulations.  Indeed, using an alkyd
(what you might call "oil-base", even though that's no longer accurate) primer
and a latex top-coat is the preferred method (for paints, anyway - I'm not 
so sure about stains).  Most latex stains have some oil component anyway.

				Steve

    well, let me just say this..
    
    
    
    my daughter used one of the "new" Oil/latex" stains on her
    house as mentioned in a previous note. all I know is believe it
    or not it's peeling.  it's like a paint, could'nt believe my eyes
    It was supposed to be a oil/latex stain with the convenience of 
    cleanup of water base and the holdling power of oil.  Seems like
    a lot of work and expense to try an short cut.  Call me olde 
    fashioned but some of the new time saving, it's got it all products
    aren't worth it in the long run.  (Probably weather tested in 
    maryland or somewhere nice like that but can't handle new england.
    
    fwiw
    So, these are two typcial new england houses, both with cedar siding.
    one done with oil base stain the other with oil/latex...totally 
    different results.  I'd ask the painter you're talking to if he
    guarantees the oil/latex product for protection, fading, etc.
        

    
    We had ours painted last August, standard boxy Garrison with chimney,
    2-car garage underneath.
    
    Pressure wash down with TSP for mildew.
    
    wirebrush and sand flaking spots and re-prime with BIN
     
    1 coat of Olympic Latex paint (not stain) on the sawn cedar siding
    (this was the original paint, was 8 years old and still in pretty good
    condition) 
    
    Oil Primer and 2 coats of Benjamin Moore brill white on the trim
    (re-primed because white oil gloss was going over original grey latex.)
    
    Application was sprayed on and then brushed in.  Trim & windows
    were masked during spraying.
    
    the bleeding knots were treated with BIN and are now showing
    through the white gloss, but only on the lower, wetter
    parts of the house.  That's the only problem so far.
     
    
    Cost was $1239.  Work took 3 days.  
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

Two or three years ago we had our house restained.  The original stain
was an Olympic oil-based solid stain.  We put Olympic latex-based stain
on top of it (same color).  However, the garage, which we had just built
the preceding year, received its first coat, which was oil-based.

This was consistent with Olympic's recommendations:  the first coat
can be oil or latex, but subsequent coats should be latex.  I forget the
explanation, but I'm pretty sure it's somewhere else in this conference.

So far, I haven't noticed any difference between the latex on oil (house) 
and two coats of oil (garage).

By the way: stain isn't expected to last as long as paint, but since it 
doesn't peel (ours hasn't), it's relatively cost effective.

   Gary

    Permit me to pose another question.  We're considering changing 
the color of our house (currently stained red), a painter we 
interviewed suggested using paint rather than stain if we wanted to 
change color, he said paint covers better than stain.  Any comments?

    Thanks.

    -Phil

    -1
    
    In general, he's right.  There may be some instances where
    a darker hue stain will hide a light hue stain.
    
    Even with paint, If you're going from a dark red stain to a lighter
    hue paint, then 2 coats of new paint or one coat plus one "blocking"
    undercoat of tinted primer may also be required.
    
    Colin
     

The recommendation to put latex stain on top of oil stain comes from
the fact that latex stains hold their color better over time than oil stains.  

  I stopped at Northboro Paint Supply on Monday and was told that I should
put 2 coats of oil based stain and then go to latex based stain.  So year 1 
and 2 would be oil, year 3 would be latex.  That would make the latex stain
last for about 7 years (according to the owner).

  Anyone have comments on California Storm stains??

    
    re; -1
    
    Well that's consistent with what the "expert" told us when we
    went to buy paint for our house. Our house had an oil stain
    on the clapboards and trim, same color. They told us to put
    oil again on the clapboard and to cover the trim first with 
    a primer(can't remember if it was latex or oil) then finish
    with a latex paint. It's been a year now for both me and my
    neighbor. He covered with latex and his is peeling, mine's not.
    This was the 2nd coat on both houses.
    
    Randy
    

    
    
    	We stained/painted our house with a product called "Sikkens".
    	It's made in Germany and is expensive, but well worth the
    	investment.  There's a True Value Hardware store in Manchester
    	that stocks it.
    
        We had just had the house re-sided with cedar, and wanted the	
    	woodgrain to show thru.  Sikkens comes in transparent type
    	colors and we did our house in redwood type.
    
    	It required three full coats of stain.  The first coat was just	
    	sucked up immediately by the cedar, then less as the costs went
    	along.  We will be giving it a "refresher" coat this year. 
    
    	It was done over 4 years ago and looks as good as it did the
    	day it was done. The south side has "some" wear, but nothing
    	compared to some of the houses we've seen. 
    
    	We put a new deck on last year and stained that with their deck
    	stain/paint to match the house.  
    
    	Marcia

re: -.1

I'm missing something here.  If this took 4 coats, what's so wonderful about
this expensive imported stain?

Marcia said it took three coats.  It doesn't surprise me that raw wood would
require three coats.  I'm in the planning stages to re-stain my existing siding,
and fully expect it to require two coats.

Four years with no sign of wear, however, is pretty impressive.

tim

Well then here's a vote for whatever stain Sears peddles.  One coat over 100
year old shingles that I know hadn't been done in 15 years, and suspect hadn't
been done in 25 and a year later it looks great and repels water.

    
    Judging from the lack of response in here, I'm probably out of luck,
    but I'll try anyway.
    
    As I type, there are about 800 guys stuccoing a wall at my house.  The
    wall will be a stucco/wrought iron combination, so I have a three days
    to paint the stucco before the iron is installed.  Does anyone have any
    suggestions?  I am planning on using a sprayer and putting a primer on
    first.  I've been given a couple different answers on how long to let
    the stucco set up, and given the delivery of the iron, don't have much
    more than a day.  Thankfully, I'm in AZ, and it's hot and dry, already.
    
    Any suggestions are aprreciated.
    
    bruce
    

The conventional wisdom is to never paint stucco.  If you paint in once,
you'll have to paint it forever.

    
    What would I do, leave it gray?  The houses here are all painted
    stucco, so there must be some way to do it, I hope. 

There's certainly a way to do it.  But if you do it, you'll have the periodic
expense and nuisance of repainting it.

You indicate that you need to paint it before the wrought iron is installed.
Will you be able to repaint it after it's installed?

    I thought that there was a stucco that already had the color mixed in?

    
    It's basically the same as a cement render so any decorative paint
    suitable for cement or concrete finishes will work.  This may be no
    help to you, as I don't know if the product is available in the US. 
    The best coating I've used is a type of latex impregnated with mica and
    silica. It's a sealing coat that lasts up to 10 years - maybe more in
    AZ. Surface prep is wash, dry, stabilizing solution and then paint. 
    It's self priming.   New stucco has a minimum drying time before
    recoating with a sealing paint, and will probably only need a wash to
    get the dust off.
    
    An alternative is lime-based whitewash - still popular in Europe as a
    low-tech coating for stucco. It is habitually chalky and stays bright
    by literally wearing away in the weather.  The problems with it are
    that you can never use any other coating at a later time and it shows
    rust streaking badly.  Again, you have less of a problem with ironwork
    rusting in AZ.  Again, this lasts long in dry sunny climes and is very
    popular in the Med. countries.  same surface prep, but is not really
    a sealing paint.
    
    Disadvantages to both are that you can't spray except with commercial
    sprayers - clogs a lot and wears out the head too quickly.  However,
    you want a good thick coat, so brush * roller application is probably
    better.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

    
    	I have a 30's house.  The ceilings are fine until we paint them, and
    then they peel.  The walls are very good plaster.  The ceilings have a
    sort of droopy look to them.  They stay in place over the strapping grid,
    but in between, they droop a bit.   I don't know why.
    
    2 questions:
    	1 How do I know my peeling problem is calcimine?
    	2 If it is, can I just put more calcimine over it (its white-wash,
    right?)
    
    	We have to do every ceiling in the house.

There is a pain especially made for this - Calcimine cover or some 
such thing.     Works great.  

.18>There is a pain especially made for this - Calcimine cover or some 
               ^^^^
.18>such thing.     Works great.  

    I'll be painting my house this summer and I am wondering if it makes a
    difference if I painted over the existing paint with a different brand. 
    The color will remain the same so I'm just interested in the effects of
    layering one brand over another.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Marv
    

    I have some general questions about house painting.
    
    1) should I paint the house first then move onto the trim or the other
    way around?
    
    2) my house is a tall 2-story.  How can I best and safely get the job
    done on the highest levels near the roof line?  Rent staging?
    
    3) I plan on power washing before painting.  How much scraping should I
    do and how can I recognize the areas where I should scrap other than
    those place that are obviously chipped or peeled?
    
    4) my chimmney is lined cinderblock and it is painted white, like the
    house.  It is chipping and stained mainly along mud lines.  Looks like
    moisture is leaching out.  How can I best cover this area?  Do I just
    the same paint I'm going to use on the house itself?
    
    Thanks for you help.  I'm sure I'll have more Q's but that's it for
    now.
    
    Regards,
    
    Marv
    

    
>    1) should I paint the house first then move onto the trim or the other
>    way around?


  As a friend of mine told me last week (I'll let him remain anonymous) :^)


 rough quote:

'Paint the trim first.  That way when you drop the bucket of white trim paint 
from the peak of the house you won't get it all over your newly painted siding'.


  Guess who missed the hook when he was trying to hang the can of paint on the
ladder......  :^)

>    1) should I paint the house first then move onto the trim or the other
>    way around?

	Contrary to -.1, I'd advise you to paint the trim last. You'll be
	using a smaller brush, and will thus have much more control than
	with the siding. Also, make sure that the rest of the paint has
	completely dried, so that you can easily wipe off drips and spills.
   
>    2) my house is a tall 2-story.  How can I best and safely get the job
>    done on the highest levels near the roof line?  Rent staging?

	Will you have enough people to deal with moving scaffolding around?
	If so then that might be the way to go. I personally prefer an
	extension ladder, but then ladders and heights don't bother me at
	all. I know many people who would be unable to function at all on a
	ladder up that high.

>    3) I plan on power washing before painting.  How much scraping should I
>    do and how can I recognize the areas where I should scrap other than
>    those place that are obviously chipped or peeled?

	Scrape everything that *might* need it. Look at it as an investment
	- if you don't scrape where it's needed, you'll pay by having to
	repaint earlier. Scraping is lousy drudge work, but it's necessary.

	How much scraping to do? Until you can't stand it or really can't
	see anywhere that needs it.
	
	As for how to find areas that need to be scraped, I think that
	visual inspection is good enough. Just make sure you're right up
	close, and take a very good look at areas that might collect water
	(i.e., window sills and the top of frames for doors and windows) or
	stay damp longer (i.e., shaded areas, areas near the foundation). 

	A power wash should help here since it should loosen up places that
	you might not otherwise notice as needing scraping. Also, if any
	areas are peeling badly, take a look at the siding to make sure it's
	not rotted or suffering from water damage.

	I won't touch #4, since I've never dealt with painting cinder block
	or chimneys.

	Roy

There should not be a problem, as long as the basic type of paint is
compatible.  Don't cheap-out on the paint - you get what you pay for.

I'm currently repainting my house (a different color) and am using 
two coats of Benjamin Moore latex over Moore alkyd primer.  

				Steve

Staging should not be necessary unless you're in a hurry.  However, you
may have places that a ladder won't reach (such as dormers, or the part over
an attached garage), in which case some sort of staging or ladder jack is
necessary.

Paint the trim last.

Unless the paint is in generally rotten shape, the power wash, if done
properly, should be sufficient.  Take a wire brush with you as you do the
first coat and scrape any loose paint you find.  The power wash also removes
dirt that can prevent the paint from adhering properly.

				Steve

    A couple of people recommended that I use Behr to paint my house.  As
    I'm going on vacation today and will begin painging on Monday I'll be
    buying the paint I need this weekend.  
    
    It sounded funny but one of those people said that Behr is an "oil
    based latex".  Is there such a thing?  If so, does it clean in soap and
    water?
    
    This same person said that you must use terp or paint thinner to clean
    up a Wagner spray painter in order to get it clean enough that you
    don't ruin it.  Is that so?
    
    He has the sprayer and I don't expect I'll use it but if I do how
    should I clean it between uses?  I do expect to use 4 inch brushes but
    you never know.
    
    Thanks for you help.
    
    Marv
    

    	I'm using Behr deck stain to do my deck. It is a latex stain that
    cleans up with warm soapy water. When you say "oil based latex" I
    don't think this will clean up with water because it is oil based
    and will require thinner to clean up.

I just finished painting my house exterior with Behr paint.  I chose Behr
because I used the interior version when working inside last winter and was
quite happy with it.

One thing about Behr paint is that it seems thinner (more watery/liquidy)
than some other brands.  Because if this, you have to watch for runs/drips.
Also it is easy to "stretch" the paint further (make a thinner coat) and
this can lead to problems.(*see below) You'll get more area coverage but it
will not cover the underlying layer as well.  You will need to put two or 3
coats.  It dries fast so it's not a problem and once it dries, the stuff is
nearly bulletproof.

I don't know about Behr being an "oil based latex".  I'm sure such things
exist but don't think my Behr was that.  I think mine was straight latex and
it cleans up easily in water.

(*) I live in a duplex condo.  We decided to paint the building and we used
the same Behr paint - each person did their half of the house.  They had
some friends paint their half but they only did 1 coat using a roller.  The
siding is T-111 plywood so a roller is an appropriate tool for this job.  I
did 2 coats - first with a brush then went back over kind of thick with a
roller.  By the time I finished a section with the brush, the first part of
the brushed area was dry so then I'd go over the whole thing with a roller.
Rolling goes quite fast so the 2nd coat was not a major time factor.  The
difference between my half and theirs is noticable.  Although we didn't
change the color of the house by much, you can see the older paint through
the new on their side so they're going to have to re-do it.  By contrast, my
side looks really nice.

-Mike

The Behr "oil-latex" solid-color stains do indeed allow water cleanup, though
I don't remember how it works for sprayers.  I don't think their paints are
this formula, though.

					Steve

    
    >     A couple of people recommended that I use Behr to paint my house. 
    
    	It is my opinion that Behr paint is the finest you can buy. It's
    	all I'll use. The Behr Ultr pure white is the whitest paint on the
    	market.

    The current issue of Consumer Reports rates exterior paints and
    stains.  It's not entirely clear to me how they selected their rating
    system, though.  The charts are worth reading as some paints were
    good at some qualities and less so at others.
    
    				Steve

    The last really big articles on exterior paint in Consumer Reports were
    in 1987 (regular paint) and 1988 (trim paint) - much more extensive
    than the article this month.  I just painted my house (modulo the
    yellow jackets...).  At least when considering latex paints, there
    seemed to be a lot more variation between different colors than between
    different manufacturers as far as durability and hiding ability go. 
    Some of the pigments used (yellow, for example) are sort of expensive,
    so the manufacturers skimp on the pigment in the paint and then it
    doesn't cover well.  Last time I painted I used Benjamin Moore latex
    paints, and this time I used Sears.  My house is green with white trim
    - no way was I going to change the color scheme since I didn't want to
    devote the time to doing multiple coats.   At any rate, it is worth
    looking up the old articles as well as the new one.
    
    /Charlotte

    
    Well I know this is for Exterior paints, but I've got to vote
    for Behr Paints also. I've used Sears, Sherwin Williams, Glidden,
    Americas Finest, and they just don't stand up to Behr. I've only used
    the Behr interior paints, but their exterior paints must be just as
    good. The interior paint covers in 1 coat, covers scratches, areas that 
    have been filled then sanded. Very happy , worth the few bucks extra.
    
      Oh won't splatter either.
    

This old note is close to my problem, but what about the latex vs oil
issue?

I just got a new garage door bottom panel and it came primed with latex 
paint.  The rest of the garage door is covered with oil solid stain and 
I would like to do the new panel with this cover because 

   - I think oil/stain is superior to latex/paint for durability

   - I have nearly a gallon of it that the previous owners
     left behind.  

   - I won't have any matching color issues (except for
     some possible fading issues) and I probably won't have 
     to do the whole door if I use the existing color and type.

I know that oil over latex is against the "rules", but if it just a 
primer being covered, is it that bad?  what might happen if I ignore the 
rules and use it anyhow?  2 of my 3 goals above are achieved with oil, 
but I don't know about the most important one.

    
      You can certainly do it. The primary reason it is not usually done is
    that latex 'gives' more than oil and can cause the harder oil over it
    to crack a bit. If I were in your situation, I would do it without
    hesitation. The most that will happen is it will not last quite as long
    as it otherwise might.
    
    					Kenny

    We often pass a house that we really like the color of and the way it
    appears on the cedar clapboard siding.  We stopped to inquire and found
    it was Cabot's Blue Spruce Semi-transparent (though the trim is solid,
    same color/brand).  The owner said this was the 2nd house he did in
    this same stain and color and LOVES it!  He said it has lasted about
    6-7 years before needing to be reapplied.
    
    Since then we have had several people tell us that they are unhappy
    with the wear of Cabot stain.  Does anybody have any feedback to give
    us on Cabot and any recommendations on some excellent stains out there?
    
    Thanks,
    Betty

My parents only use Cabots on their house and swear by it.  I personally have
only used one style stain which I can not find anymore.  It was a solid
stain specifically for deck floors.  I think it was incredible...but 
I can not find it anyplace (before I get replies on this...I don't mean the
semi-transparent deck stain).

-Jay

You may try to dig through some other notes.  I've replied to several of them
regarding paints/stains.  I have NEVER LIKED Cabots stains.  Perhaps in 
their day they were great - they were the only thing going, whatever, but
today there are much better products on the market.  My favorite stain is
California Storm Stain for ease of application, durability, color retention,
and Price!  When  I was in the painting business, a home owner got a deal on
Cabots stain and insisted, beyond our recommendation, to use it.  At the same
time we stained his neighbors house with California Storm Stain.  I drove
by the two houses this past weekend - guess which one has water marks all 
over all looks like trash - you guessed.  CABOTS!  Guess which one looks 
great!  California.  It's not promoted like Olympic and Cabots - but it's
made right in Cambridge, MA, and it's great.  You pay for the product, not
all the hype advertising.

The preferred method now with storm stain is base coat linseed oil, and top
coat urithane latex stain.  Results are FANTASTIC!

Further more, Cabots OVT:  Read the label - it's PAINT!  It says something 
on the order of "resists cracking and peeling"  Does not "prevent"  Yes,
I've scraped a house "stained" with OVT!!! The fact that they mislead
consumers really burns me.

Standards disclaimers apply.  Simply my experiences after applying a few
thousand gallons of stain.

-Brian

    I used a Cabot stain on some wood storm doors I built about 11
    years ago; it's stood up fine.  No complaints at all.
    

 >   We often pass a house that we really like the color of and the way it
 >   appears on the cedar clapboard siding.  We stopped to inquire and found
 >   it was Cabot's Blue Spruce Semi-transparent (though the trim is solid,
 >   same color/brand). 
    
One other note:
    
    California will match any competitors stain color.  We did it all
the time.  Home owner/builder said... but I like Olympic color xyz.  We 
said, sure well give you that color in a better product... 

-BDJ

    
    
    A bit off the subject but, we're planning on painting our house
    next year, but it was painted with 'paint' not a stain.  Can we
    go over with primer and stain or do we have to stick with paint?
    
    We will be replacing some of the clabbards, but not all.
    
    Are Benjamin Moore stains a good product?
    
    Deb

    
      If its been painted, then you have to stick with paint. For the new
    clapboards, prime one coat of a color near to what is on there and then
    one coat of the new color (Whatever it may be) doing everyting at once.
    
    				Kenny

    Reply to .2
    
    You mentioned the new way of applying a base, etc. with linseed oil but
    is that appropriate for semi-transparent?

    
    Not that new - it's in my 1980 reference book.  Forest Products
    Laboratory natural finish is a linseed oil/pentachlorophenol/wax
    base, with a optional pigment added.  It has about a 10 yr life
    for 2 coats (same day).

>> boiled linseed 
    
Yes - needs to be boiled, else it may be sticky for a while :*)
It's been around for quite a while.  The latex top coat is what's 
relatively new - latex stain, that is.  You get the best of both
worlds with this system.  Oil protection, and latex color retention.
If you are not careful with oil stains and you are careless when 
applying (ie work up instead of down and across) then you run the
risk of lap marks and/or flashing - especially with semi-transparent.
I'm very particular about this.  Take three to five clapboards starting
from the top and work them horizontally all the way across.  Work
quickly, and never quit for the day without completing the clapboards
that you started.  There is nothing worse than seeing ugly lap marks 
on the side of a house - and it is difficult or nearly impossible
to get them completely out - even several years.  It takes some
more ladder work, but the results are worth it.  The application 
of the latex is much more carefree. I've used this system with 
solid stains - and I love the results after 7 years. I'm going out 
on a limb here and assuming that the process would work on 
semi-transparent, although I haven't used latex semi myself.  If 
you are in the 3M area, go to lynch paints in Westford (rt110).  
Ask for Bob Cohen.  Their prices are very reasonable. I've used 
them for years and have been very happy with there service and 
advice/know-how.  They really keep abreast of development with 
new products and techniques.

-Brian

    We used Cabots' stain for our deck -- hate it.  Looked awful in less than
    6 months.  Was more like paint that a stain.   I would not use it
    again.
    
    Julie
    

 RE: .0

Funny you should mention. :-)

 I used the same color stain only the solid color, not 
the transparent on my 2 story gambrel garage.

 5 years ago 2 coats were sprayed on and it's still
going strong with no apparant wear or fading.

After spending close to 5 hours using search strings and directory searches
, I've come to the conclusion that this question either hasn't been asked or 
the notes conference is too big for search strings to be effective.  (After 
45 minutes of waiting on a search, ^Y unlocked the terminal.)

Where can one purchase Glidden oil base interior semi gloss paints?  I 
have to match Glidden Antique White and the stuff Aubuchon tried to mix 
from their Glidden stock wasn't even close.  I'm looking for pre-mixed.  
It's done the job before, it'll do it again. ...at least a lot better than 
Aubuchon could.

Since the demise of Builder's Square in Nashua, I don't know where to turn. 
 (I've been told they folded about 6 weeks ago)

Being the ever-helpful type, I looked in my Nashua yellow pages under "Paint".
Unfortunately, my Nashua phone book is a few years old.  Under Glidden-Spred
paints it has Glidden Paint and Wallcoverings, Builders Square, Channel, and
Grossman's.  The last three are out of business, and I don't know about the
first.  Maybe carrying Glidden paint is a jinx?

If you can't find a dealer who's still in business in a recent yellow pages,
try calling or writing to the company.

I've bought Glidden before at HQ, but it was latex interior Antique White

Glidden Paint and Wallcoverings (888-1992) is still listed in the current
phone book.  Also listed is Aubuchon Hardware (883-1400).

Anybody have any Mass sources?

I used to work in MKO which made Builder's Square convenient.  I work in 
TWO now and live in Ayer so Nashua addresses will be a "last resort" effort
.

    Skip, I think HQ in Shrewsbury carries Glidden, but that may be a bit
    too far South for you.  I used HQ prices to drive down the price at a
    Glidden store in Worcester.  That store has closed to consolidate with
    another store (in Auburn I think).  Check the Yellow Pages.  There
    might be a Glidden store in the Fitchburg/Leominster area.

    
    
    Grossmans also used to carry Glidden. The Grossmans close to TWO
    is the one in Billerica on Rte 3A. They're still open. Not sure where
    the other Grossman's are that survived.
    

Have you checked the yellow pages under "Paint"?  That's where I found
the listing of Glidden dealers.

				Steve

    
    If the original paint job was done some time ago, chances are that even
    a same-brand pre-mix will not match the current surface, due to fading
    or yellowing.  Also, mixes are done in batches, and a different batch
    number will be close, but not quite.
    
    Given this, you'd be better off taking a sample of the current surface
    (dime size) to a store that offers computer analysis and mixing.  They
    will mix about as close as you can get.  Home Depot offers this and
    offers Behr oil-base paints, which are pretty good.
    
    Also, if you are trying to get a close match (such as when repairing
    damage, the basecoat or primer needs to be close to the original.
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
                         

The paint was applied from two leftover gallons of paint approximately 6 
weeks ago.  This paint matched, perfectly, the stuff that was applied 18 
months ago ...and the two cans were even from different batches.

Aubuchon couldn't match it mixing Glidden paints, Somervill Lumber's mixing 
job was off, too (different brand).

	The trim on our house is peeling badly and the house is only
	three years old.  The house itself is stained, but the trim
	is painted off-white with what we believe is Benjamin Moore 
	paint... only thing is, we think it might be interior paint!

	The reason we think this is the previous owners (and builders)
	of the house, left behind the Benjamin Moore paint chips pamplet
	and they wrote beside one of the colors... "interior walls/exterior
	trim".  This paint chip does match too.  Now, they could have 
	taken the paint chip and asked for exterior paint to match
        but I looked in the door jam of the front door (all interior
	trim is painted not stained) and I cannot see where the paint
	texture changes from inside to outside so I really believe this
	in interior paint.  I really find it hard to believe that someone
	could be so stupid as to use interior paint outside!

	Is there any way for me to tell whether this is interior paint?
	If the paint turns out to be exterior paint, is there any way
	for me to tell who made the paint?  If Benjamin Moore made the
	paint, is there any way I can report this problem to them and get
	some compensation?	

	We have to repaint the trim on our house and I don't want to buy
	Benjamin Moore exterior paint if that is what is peeling off!

	Thanks,

	Karen