Conference 7.286::home_work

    	This may be too obvious.. But do you have oil in your tank,
    and is oil getting to the burner. Where you where getting hot
    water a couple of days ago and not getting any now, I would think
    	that the burner is fine. I also believe that burners/ furnace's
    are equiped with some sort of shutoff if it doesn't kick in... It
    	sounds like oil is not getting to the burner...
    
    
    			Steve
    

    If you have a single feed line from the tank to the burner and get
    air into the line from whatever cause, the burner will not light.
     There is a shut off switch which will not allow the pump to keep
    running if the burner did not light.  If you have a double feed
    line, keep trying to light the burner.  The pump will eventually
    clear the air from the line.  With the single line, you must break
    the line at the fitting closest to the burner and bleed all the
    air from the line.
    
    Bruce Bretschneider

You may have to have a pro come in and look at it. In fact, it 
is a very good idea to have your furnace cleaned. A clean furnace
is more efficient and when they clean it it is adjusted properly.

Before I go one, I will say I work part time for a fuel oil dealer.
When you pressed the red button (the reset button) you should have
seen a flame in the chamber. There is an electric eye that looks
for flame and if it doesn't see it, it will shut the burner down.
That is for several reasons. First, no flame means something is not
working. Second, safety. If the pump keeps on spraying oil into
the combustion chamber, when you finnally do get an ignition, then
all the extra oil will burn. When I go to a house that ran out of
oil and I go to bleed and restart the furnace, I never push the reset
button more than twice. If I do, then the repair person will have to
contend with a puddle of oil in the combustion chamber. There have been
times where there has been so much oil in there that we have had the
fire department stand by when the burner is finnaly fired up.

Causes. Most common is oil not getting to the burner. This is either
because you are out of oil or that there is a blockage in a filter
or the nozzel. (If you have a cleaning done the filters and nozzel get
replaced). The most expensive cause here would be a bad pump. The other
possibility is no source of ignition. There is a transformer that produces
a high voltage to some electrodes that causes an arc to ignite the oil.
Problems here are not as common as a fuel blockage. The last possiblity
(from my experience) is the control box. They do go bad sometimes but
again a clogged filter or nozzle is more than likely your problem.

What I have just written is from nine years of part time experience
working for a small oil company (i.e. you need to be a jack-of-all-trades)
and I do not have a burner licence. My advice is call a burner man and
have a cleaning done. It will save you money in operating costs. You
would rather do it now than find yourself without heat later.

Any questions give me a call.

Bill Henry
OGO1-1/J17
276-8130

I have a set-up the same as yours (FHW and tankless heater, but no storage
tank).  This spring I had the same problem: lukewarm water in the morning,
and no burner.  I pushed the red button, got a flame, and took my shower.
However, when my wife went to take her shower, the burner was again dead.

My trouble-shooting approach was as follows:

1) Call the oil company.

This is when having a service contract comes in handy.  The oil man found
that I had water in my tank (it's outdoors, and the seal on the gauge
leaked in rainwater), which had corroded the nozzle.  The fix was to drain
15 gallons (!!!) of water from the tank, replace the nozzle, and bleed
the line.  All has been fine since.

Good luck!

    I have had this problem before and I watched exactly what the oil
    serviceman did.  The furnace was a Burnham w/ Honeywell control.
    
    1) Check for oil.  Check to see if oil is getting to the atomizer,the
    large cylindrical object at the bottom center.
    2) If no oil is getting there, you may need to bleed the line. 
    The bleed valve is on the pump where the oil line enters it.
    3) Just below the atomizer is a cadmium cell that sees if there
    is a flame within the chamber.  If there is no flame in 20 seconds,
    it tells the Honeywell control to shut down.  This prevents oil
    from spilling all over your basement.
    4) The surface of the cell may be dirty or the cell may be broken.
    You can check the cell by unplugging it and putting a Ohmeter across
    the leads. Then shine a light across the cell and see if
    the resistance drops.
    5) Across the front of the oil nozzle is a spark generator. When
    the furnace is on, you should see a continuous blue arc across the
    two electrodes. If this is broken, you will probably have to call
    the oil serviceman.
    
    The most likely defect is the cad cell. They last for about 7-8
    yrs. I don't know if the oil dealers will sell you one though.
    
    -al

    Here's one possibility that hasn't been mentioned yet.  This has
    happened to my burner several times.  There are two electrodes that
    stick out next to the nozzle that sprays atomized oil into the
    combustion chamber.  On my unit, they are located very close to
    the nozzle, and have a tendency to trap carbon deposits between
    one electrode and the nozzle.  That forms a low resistance path
    to ground, so no spark will be produced.  All it takes is a good
    cleaning to fix the problem.  I find it happens frequently if dust
    gets sucked in to the burner (have you been creating sawdust or
    sheetrock dust in that area?).
    
    On my burner, all you have to do is remove 2 screws to flip up the
    transformer housing, then unscrew the oil line from the burner head,
    and slide the nozzle/electrode assembly (for lack of a better name)
    back and up to pull it out and inspect/clean it.
    
    Worth checking, anyway.  Also - if this is the problem, and you're
    late for work and just want to get it running temporarily, a burner
    serviceman gave me this tip - try tapping the end of the burner
    head (where the oil line connects) while the burner is attempting
    to start.  This usually will dislodge any large trapped particles
    that are shorting out the electrodes.  Be sure not to hit the reset
    button too many times, as the accumulated oil will ignite and cause
    much smoke.
    
    -db

    	I am the originator of this note and the problem is now fixed.
    Unfortunately it wasn't fixed by me.  I gratefully took in all the
    advice from you all and made a good attempt at fixing it but got
    nowhere.  
    
    	The original problem was no hot water.  I checked out the furnace
    and it wouldn't run.  I hit the red button on the control box to
    start it but it wouldn't light up or stay running.  I then checked
    to see if any oil was spraying in or accumulating in the fire box
    and it wasn't.  So from this I saw it was a fuel supply problem.
    I then checked the filters in the lines and found them clogged and
    replaced them.  Then I couldn't get the pump primed.  From my
    observation of the pump and motor I could see the motor turning
    and could feel a good vibration from the pump itself but I couldn't
    get it primed and pulling in the fuel.  I tried to run oil thru
    the lines and fill in the filter canister but no way.  I finally
    gave up and called an oil burner guy.  I just figured I was nieve
    to the tricks of the trade.  But this wasn't the case.  There was
    something else broken.
    
    	My problem was that the pump was not turning but the motor was.
    The broken part was this plastic (keyed) coupling sleeve that went
    between the motor shaft and the shaft of the pump.  I have a Becket
    burner.  The sleeve, which is keyed with a flat spot to meet the
    flat side of the motor shaft for a positive drive, was stripped
    round so that there was no more positive drive.  So the repair guy
    replaced this sleeve (standard part, a few bucks) and all is well
    again.  The total repair took about 20 minutes and cost me $36.
    
    	Again, thanks for all your inputs.  It was a real education.
    
    						Jorge'

    Does anyone know what causes a "ticking" sound in a water pipe.
    It occurs just after you turn the water off and continues for
    a few minutes afterwards.  Nothing is leaking anywhere that I
    can see.  

    
    if (hot_water_pipe)
    	    ticking is proabaly caused by pipe expansion as the flow
    	    of hot water warms it up and it rubs against part of the
    	    inside of the wall (you don't hear it while the water's
    	    running, but it probably started a second or two after the
    	    water got hot)
        else
    	    never mind

    I have a FHW by gas system.  When I turn on the heat, the furnace comes
    on and stays on for about five minute until the water gets hot.  Then
    it shuts itself off even though the thermostat is still calling for
    heat.  It will turn itself on after some time and will go through the
    same cycle again. 
    
    Is that normal?  Shouldn't the furnace be constantly on until the
    thermostat asks to cut off the heat?  Or once the water is heated,
    there is no nead for the furnace to go on?
    
    Slightly confused,
    - Vikas

    
    re: .8
    
    VIkas,
    
    Sounds normal to me. In most systems, the thermostats govern 
    the operation of zone valves, which open to allow heated water to
    flow through the loops, and a cirulating pump, which makes the
    water go. The temperature of the water is governed by a high-
    limit aquastat, which keep the water within a set temperature
    range.
    
    It sounds to me like, when you turn your thermostat on, the zone
    valves open, hot water is pumped from the boiler into the heat loops,
    and replaced by cold water which was standing in the pipes. This,
    in turn, causes the water temperature in the boiler to drop below
    the aquastat's low limit, turning the burner on. Once the water
    throughout the loop is heated above the low threshold, the burner
    shuts down until sufficient heat is lost to trigger the aquastat.
    
    Bear in mind that there are a zillion variations on this theme,
    so, while what I just described fits my system EXACTLY, yours
    may be some (close) variant.
    
    Stu
    

     In a FHW system, the furnace will run until a preset <high limit>
    is reached. At that point the burner will stop. If thethermostat 
    is still calling for heat, hot water will continue to be circulated
    by the circulator pump. When the water in the furnace cools down
    to the preset <low limit> the furnace will turn back on to again
    raise the temp, thus repeating the cycle. This will continue until
    the thermostat is satisfied. This is the normal way a FHW system
    should operate.
    		The normal settings for these limits are:
    

    Furnace only:			Furnace with domestic hot water:
    	HL 180					HL 190-200
    	LL 140					LL 160
    
    				Kenny

    Thanks for the explanation.  The pipes make gargling noises when
    the thermostat is turned on the first time.  I tried to locate those
    bleeder valves near the baseboard but could not locate any.  The
    system is two zones with one circulator and two valves near the
    furnace.  If there is any air, do I bleed it from those valves?
    It does not seem to affect the heating i.e. all the baseboard do
    radiate the heat.  Should I even bother?
    
    - Vikas

    If you are getting heat in all the radiators, its not broke, and
    I wouldn't try to fix it.
    
    A way to save money: lower the settings on your limit control. I
    knocked off 20-25 degrees from the limits in .10 (mine were originally
    set the same way). This will save money (especially in cold basements)
    because: 1) the water will start to circulate at a lower temperature,
    bringing you heat faster, and 2) the standby heat loss will be less
    because the difference in temperature between the furnace/water
    and the air is lower. You can have your serviceman make the adjustment
    the next time he comes to service the burner if you are squeamish
    about fiddling with it yourself.
    
    A similar adjustment can be made on circulating hot air systems,
    lowering the minimum temperature at which the system will begin
    to circulate air. But alas, steam is only made above 211 degrees,
    so this trick won't work on steam systems.
    

    RE: .12
    
    <The limit control>
    
    Where is this thing located?  I can see the pressure/temp gauge 
    on the furnace.  And how does the control look like?
    
    Thanks,
    - Vikas

    There should be a small grey color box on the front of your furnace
    about 8" x 5" x 2".  The usual manufacturer of these things are
    Honeywell.  There should also be a small red reset button on the
    front surface.  If you pull the cover off, you will see two dials
    about the size of a quarter with numbers on the dial.  One dial
    is the low limit and the other is the high limit.  You should be
    careful when you change these settings, since the temperature ranges
    from about 80 degrees to 180 in the space of an inch, so I don't
    think they're that accurate.
    
    -al

Ref 305.12 ,.13 .14

Another easy way to save lots of energy (=money ) is to have your
boiler outlet temperature modulated by an outside temperature sensor.

The reasoning is as follows:

In fall and spring when ouside temps are still relatively high it is a
waste to run the FHW system with 180 F , the heat demand is not there but
the heatloss would be. Contrary, in January you may need even 200 F of 
outlet temp to get your house warm. Because the surface of your heat exchangers
(radiators, baseboards etc) is fixed, you have basically two variables to play
with 

1. Amount of heating medium going through your heat exchangers (gpm)
2. Temperature of heating medium

The first variable is usually controlled in that the thermostat switches
the circulator pump on or off. The outlet temperature is usually kept at the 
high limit (Honeywell Aquastat). If the heat demand is low (as in spring and
fall) this leads to short cycling of the system. In a regular system cycling
wastes energy by dumping the heat in the pipes where you do not use it.

The second variable can be controlled by a device put in series to the 
high limit switch of the Aquastat. This device has two temperature sensors,
one monitors the boiler outlet temperature and the other the outside air temp.

The device regulates the boiler temp by interrupting the high limit and
shutting off the burner. The difference between outside temp and boiler temp
can be adjusted via potentiometer. Mine is set to 175 degrees.

Its operation is as follows:

Difference temp - outside temp = Boiler temp 

   175          -     65       =    110
   175          -     30       =    145
   175          -      0       =    175
   175          -    -20       =    195
   175          -    -35       =    210  *


* in this case the high limit would restrict the temp to 200 F 

The savings are considerable and the $80 for the wonderbox were paid for
in the first couple of months.

This box and some other neat devices allow me to comfortably heat my 103 Year
old Victorian (2200 sqft on 3 levels 10ft high ceilings, no insulation in
the walls, R35 in the attic) for less than $1000 per 12 month period including
hot water for two adults and two teenage daughters.

If there is a demand I will describe my system in detail

Rudolf

I've heard of these gizmoes before, and I'm glad to hear a success story.
I've also got some questions about them:

	- If a home has a dishwasher, and the hot water for it comes from
the same furnace, does the gizmo allow you to set a minimum temperature?
I think most dishwasher crystals require at least 140 degrees to work
properly. How much of the savings during the spring and fall does one lose
as a result of having the minimum set at 140?

	- Before last winter I set my high limit down to 160 degrees (from 
the standard 180) in an attempt to reduce the standby heat loss you refer
to. I had no problems with keeping the house warm, even on the coldest
nights. And while the circulating pump may have run longer, I'm under the
impression that it was cheaper to do that than to heat the furnace up to
180 (the old standard) or 200 (max. with the gizmo). Would there be any 
benefit (savings) in getting one of these wonder-boxes?

Ref: 305.16

I do have a separate gasfired hotwater boiler which has a timer
on it (a regular Mr Gizmo, thats what I am) so I do have hot enough
water when I need it for the dishwasher. Top of the line dishwashers 
usually have a booster (electric heating coil) to take care of lower
water temps or you could by a small electric "tankless waterheater" and
put it in the dishwasher line. They go for less than $100.

In my case there definitely was a considerable saving of energy achieved
but you have to look at your heating system as a SYSTEM and decide 
where the greatest return on investment will be.

I believe my energy consumption as stated in 305.15 is testimonial for a
nicely tuned system.

    
    I was just about to call "Boston Gas" in to take care of my problem,
    but seeing that there is so much knowledge around FHW in this notes
    file, I thought I'd try here first.
    
    PROBLEM:	I have a 2 zone FHW system with 1 circulating pump.
     		The 2nd floor thermostat controls the zone valve and
    		pump.  The 1st floor thermostat only controls the zone
    		valve.  To receive heat on the 1st floor the 2nd floor
    		must calling for heat as well.
    
    I have a woodstove on my 2nd floor so the thermostat hardly ever
    kicks on.  
    
    QUESTIONS:
    
    		1.  Is this a normal situation or has something in my
    		    system failed?
    
    		2.  To make each zone independent of each other do I
    		    need to install a second pump or can the system
    		    be wired to accommodate this?
    
    Thanks in advance for any replies.
    Mike
   

    Check the wiring... The thermostats (BOTH!) and the zone valves
    (BOTH!) should both be wired to the "T" terminals of your furnace.
    To get a good picture, Stop at any store that sells TACO zone valves
    and look at the box. It shows EXACTLY how the Thermostats, and
    transformer and valves are wired to do exactly what you ask.
    (In actuallity, the zone valves have a set of contacts that are
    wired together and then to the "T" terminals on the furnace which
    does the job)
    
    Mark

    We currently have an all-gas house (piped in LP gas - to be
    converted to Natural within the next few years).  Our heat
    is FHA, and we have a 30 gal hot water tank.  We are starting
    to think about getting a new hot water heater for 2 reasons -
    first, Merrimack (NH) water seems to be eating other folks
    tanks, and I figure ours is just a matter of time - and second,
    30 gal isn't really enough when you wanna do wash AND do the
    dishes at about the same time.
    
    Anyhow, we're looking at getting a new heater, with a capacity
    of 40 gal.  But getting one to fit our situation is fairly
    difficult.  Currently, our heater is about 44" high, with
    about a 12" stack above it before it bends at about 90 degrees,
    then slowly upwards into the stack, and up to the roof.
    In looking thru the sears catalog, almost all 40 gal hot water
    heaters are about 60" tall - which I believe is too tall to
    replace our current one, and allow for the exhaust to the
    stack out of the house.  This leads me to a couple of questions:
    
    1. Does anyone have any experience with the "short" hot water
       heaters?  Sears advertises a 40 gal short model, but the
       recovery time was much longer than the regular sizes.
    
    2. If I get a heart advertised as "Natural gas", can the installer
       convert it to be LP?
    
    3. How much would it cost to install an electric hot water heater?
       Currently, the basement is finished, and the furnace room is
       at the opposite end of the cellar.  We'd somehow need to get
       electricity to the room, probably with its own meter and power
       feed.  Installation would then include new box, meter, wiring,
       and THEN the water heater (sounds costly already!).
    
    Thanks for any ideas you could give me - and if anyone wants more
    info, let me know, and I'll try to fill in the blanks.
    
    Andy
    

You ought to consider getting a tankless water heater.  We've had one for two 
years now, and I'd never consider buying a tank again.  If you do a dir/key=
hot_water, you'll find a number of notes about these heaters.  They are quite 
small and will fit in the required space quite easily.  Besides that, they will 
cost about 1/3 as much to run as a (Gasp!) electric heater.

Paul

     The recovery time is longer for a short heater because the
    heat-exchange area (the stack) is smaller. 
     Gas hot water heaters can not be converted from one type of gas
    to another. They must be bought for the type of gas you're going
    to use them with.
     
     60" sounds normal for a 40 gal gas heater, but if you shop around
    you may find one a little shorter. One suggestion though, it could
    be easy to put the heater's flue into the chimney a little higher.
    Of course, I don't know your situation but it's usually a matter
    of punching the new hole where you need it and sealing the old one.
    
    					Kenny

Suggestion - if you have hard water - buy a warranty for about a year 
longer than tanks usually last - then you get 2 tanks for the cost of 
one

    for some reason  my hot water isn't all that hot anymore.  We've
    been living in the house for about a year, and gradually, there
    has been less and less hot water.
    
    The water when it is first turned on is rather hot, but even a short
    shower (less than 3 minutes) brings a lukewarm shower.  (and we
    have 3 people showering in the morning)  Re-heating is much slower
    than i would expect.  (it's a 40 Gallon water heater)
    
    Is it time for a new heater?  or just a good flushing?
    
    
    -bill

    I have heard of plumbers getting the cold and hot pipes reversed.  You
    might want to check that.

    John Di.

    I had the same problem with a two-element electric heater. 
    It only had a one-year warranty on it, so naturally it failed in
    13 months. If yours is still under warranty, I wouldn't mess with
    it, just exercise your rights under the warranty.
    
    If it needs to be flushed already, I'd be concerned about the quality
    of my water. It's probably worth a try, but if you are starting
    out with hot water, and it just isn't lasting like it used to, there
    could be something wrong with the water heater itself.
    
    If it is not still under warranty, however, its very easy to
    troubleshoot and repair if you are familiar with working around
    electricity and know how to use a multimeter.
    My problem was a bad heating element, and here's how I determined that:
    
    If you have a two-element electric heater, shut off the power to the heater
    by tripping the breaker (remember - that's 220 volts you could get
    fried with when you're tooling around in the heater).
    
    After removing the thermostat covers, verify that the power has been
    disconnected with the multimeter. Remove the wires from the heating
    elements and ohm the elements out. It doesn't matter what the
    resistance reading is, it should be about the same for both elements.
    If there is a difference, go to any appliance repair store or decent
    hardware store and pick up an element of the same wattage. The wattage
    is marked on the base of the elements, and should also be on the
    water heater specification tag attached to the heater. (On my first
    trip to the hardware store, I found that some elements of the same
    wattage have two different size screw-in bases. So I went home and
    measured the base of the elements in my tank. Then I went back to the
    store and picked up the right one. So we learn). Save yourself a trip
    and measure the base before you head out to get the new element. 
    
    When you get the new element home, ohm it out. Ohm out the two in the
    tank again. The one in the tank that has the resistance reading that
    is far different from the new one AND one of the elements in the tank,
    is the bad one.
    
    Shut off the water supply to the tank, drain the tank, screw the
    bad element out, and screw the new element in, making sure the new
    gasket that came with the new element is in place. Make sure the
    drain valve is closed, and turn on the water supply to the tank, with
    a hot water faucet on someplace in the house to prevent airlock
    (otherwise the tank won't fill). While the tank is filling, re-connect
    the wires to the element. DO NOT turn power back on until the tank is
    full, or you'll destroy both elements.
    
    If you ohm'd out the elements, and they were about equal, the problem
    is not a heater element, it is likely one of the thermostats.
    Troubleshooting them to determine the bad one is the same as determining
    which element is bad - use the process of 'odd man out', the one that
    doesn't match is the bad one.
    
    To verify mine, I made sure both thermostats were set at approximately
    the same temperature, and ohmed 'em out. They were close to equal
    so I figured they were ok. (I've never heard of a heater thermostat
    sticking, but I guess anything is possible).
    
    Just make sure that you remember the 220 volts, and if you aren't
    familiar with using a multimeter, best leave the job to a pro, or
    a friend who does know how. And make sure you either mark the wires
    or draw a diagram, labeling the colors - pretty basic stuff, but it's
    better than having to call a repairman to put it all back together
    again.
    
    My heater has been working fine ever since. Total cost, about $12.00
    and part of a Saturday morning. Tools required were a hose to hook up
    to the drain valve, a multimeter, socket wrench with a socket the same
    size as the heater element base, and a screwdriver.
    
    

    Colder water coming in from the outside in the winter increases
    recovery time.  This could be your problem.  There are some easy
    methods you can use to bring the incoming water temp up to a reasonable
    temp before it enters the heater.  I saw one method using a coil
    of 1/2" K type piping in a tub filled with sand to acomplish this.
    One of my friends wraped K type piping around his woodstove in the
    cellar to achieve preheating.  If anyone tries this they should
    be sure to install one way valve to keep warm water from circulating
    back to the cold line.                                       
    
    If you have an electric heater one of the coils could have been
    burned out and the other still works.  Easy to troubleshoot and
    replace.  Parts are available at supply houses.
    
    

    well, it's a gas heater.
    
    
    Good iea on the cold water coming from outside, maybe I'll wait
    until spring before doing anything.
    
    I flushed it this morning, but nothing really came out of it except
    clear hot water.
    
    -bill

    
    re: -2
    
    One thing that I neglected to mention that I should have mentioned
    before you start removing all the wires and start troubleshooting.
    There should be a reset button on the thermostasts. May be that
    the only thing wrong is one of these has to be reset (pushed back
    in).
    
    Dale

    Gas huh?    -.3 had a good point about increased recovery time
    during cold weather.
    
    The most common problem with insufficient hot water (doesn't last long)
    is often caused by a lack of understanding of how little water the
    heater actually contains, and how long it takes to reheat a new
    supply.
    
    Only about 70 percent of the water in a heater tank reaches the
    desired temperature - the other 30 percent near the bottom remains
    cooler. Therefore, a 40 gallon tank only contains about 28 gallons
    of hot water - enough to fill a standard bathtub to about 5 inches
    with just hot water. Once this supply is exhausted, it may take an hour
    to heat the incoming 28 gallons to the thermostat setting (and, as
    -.3 pointed out, longer if the air around the heater is cold).
    
    If your water starts getting cold in a three minute shower, there
    are still some simple checks you can make, rather than having to
    take cold showers until summer.
                       
    1. Check the temperature control setting. Water heaters are normally
    set at around 150 degrees. It can be as low as 120 to conserve fuel,
    but in cold weather this doesn't work for most homes with the heaters
    in cold areas of the house and uninsulated hot water pipes. It can
    be set as high as 180 degrees if the water gets cold while passing
    through pipes in unheated basements or poorly insulated walls. Mine
    is set at 165 degrees - I feel that's warm enough to be effective
    for the showers, dishwasher and clothes washer, but not so hot as
    to be dangerous if somebody (a kid) inadvertently decides to stick
    his hand in running hot water.
    
    2. Look for and repair leaking hot water faucets - it can be surprising
    how much water can drip out of a leaking faucet in a day.
    
    3. Make sure the burner flame is blue. If it is orange, clean out
    the burner shutters, or call a repairman to clean the burner ports.
    
    4. Turn temperature control all the way up and have somebody open
    a hot water faucet: if the burner does not light in two to three
    minutes, have a repairman test and calibrate or replace the thermostat.
    
    Well, you just learned all I know about gas water heaters. I hope
    some of this helps.
    
    Dale                                

    >>> DO NOT FLUSH <<<
    
    I flushed my 13z year old gas hot water tank last August; result,
    it started leaking. I disturbed the rust that was down the bottom
    and the buildup once flushed, started to LEAK. 
    
    Result was that I had to buy a new SEARS 8 year warranty water tank.
    The new tank $239 on sale plus $80 to install it in 20 minutes.
    I'd advise a whole house water filter to help keep some of the crud
    out of the bottom of the tank.
    
    BTW, get a replacement tank with a swirl action to keep the crud
    stirred up an flush your new tank ebery 6 to 12 months.
    
    /cal hoe

    More info
    
    
    The thermostat is set up as high as I would want to set it.  The
    water is VERY HOT when it first comes out of the faucet.  I had
    set it up when we first bought the house (over a year ago) because
    both my brother and I as well as the tenant upstairs take showers
    about the same time in the morning (workdays)
    
    
    The 3 minute shower is continuing.  The water comes in from the
    street, and goes about 40 feet inside a semi-warm basement before
    coming to the heater, so it should have a reasonable amount of time
    to warm up at least a litte.
    
    Also, the heater isn't all that old.  Maybe 4 or 5 years at the
    most (I'd say more like 3)  It does have one of those energy stickers
    on it, so it can't be much more than 5 years (they didn't put those
    things on then did they?)
    
    Not much came out when I flushed it.  No real sediment, only a little
    (very little) brown water.  The problem is still there, and I'm
    still confused.
    
    -bill

    RE: ENERGY STICKERS
    
    My electric purchased in 1980 came with an energy sticker.
    
    Charly
    
    

     There is a tube inside the tank which is called a mixing tube.
    It is located inside the tank as an extension to the cold water
    inlet pipe. It has holes along it's sides to help distribute the
    incoming cold water. It is quite common that these rust to the point
    where they fall off inside the tank. Then the cold water isn't mixed
    when it enters the tank. The result is that the water coming
    out of the tank gets cold too soon. I have a 40 gal. gas HW heater
    and I have yet to run it out of hot water and it's nothing special,
    so maybe this can be your problem. 
      To get at this pipe you need to unscrew the cold water pipe fitting
     on top of the tank. It should be sitting on a flange just underneath.
    It is also possible that the inlet and outlet pipes were installed
    in reverse (same problem cause of the tube) and it's finally caught
    up with you.
    
    					Kenny

I've got a weird hot-water problem.  Water heater is gas, looks about 5 - 8
years old.  All the plumbing in the house has been replaced.  I get instant
hot water on the following outlets:

	1) 	Washing machine in Cellar

	2) 	Kitchen Faucet

	3)	Bathroom Sink Faucet

Turning the water on at the tub faucet gets hot water for 2 seconds, then
nothing.  The pipe can be heard to make a hammering sound in the basement.
Then COLD water.  Turning the hot water on slowly solves the problem.  All
the pipes are insulated, and the problem occurs in warm weather also.  The
only difference I can see is the tub is the old fashioned Claw-Foot type,
and the faucets are original, probably  80+ years old or more.

					Ideas ?

	RE: .11
    
	I've got the same problem!!!  Except after the CLANG, I turn
    the water on more and it flows and is hot.  I haven't tried to fix
    it yet but I read somewhere that it had to do with the way the pipe
    is anchored or supported.  Something about the hot water causing
    the pipe to move but the support was working against it.  In my
    case, I think the pipe is too tight against the subfloor where it
    comes up from the basement.  I'm turning the hot water on REAL slow to
    minimize the bang until I get around to fixing it.

      You may have an in-line anti-scald valve. The purpose of this
    valve is to mix the water going into the tub so that it can not
    exceed a certain temp. If you have this it could be broken or sticking.
    It is common for these valves to crud up with mineral deposits and
    start acting erraticly. 
    
    					Kenny

    It's also possible that brass screw holding the washer inside the
    bath faucet has corroded away and the loose washer floats around
    inside until it jams shut. In any event the problem is most cerainly
    with the faucet or associated mixing valve.
    
    - Rich
    

    Talk about your water heater problems... did you hear about the
    one in Lunnenburg Mass. (I think) this past weekend. Seems there
    was the oil fired water heater that the home owners were having
    some problems with. Steam pressure built up and the thing took off
    like a ROCKET! And I do mean ROCKET. It lifted off the base in the
    basement went thru the first AND SECOND FLOOR of the house, picking
    up a mattress along the way, and then went thru the ROOF. The water
    heater and mattress landed about 60 feet from the house.

    Fortunately No One was home at the time.

    Charly

    Oh Yeah, I forgot to add something. The fire inspector "speculated"
    that the base to the water heater was still in the basement. A side
    effect of the rocket.. I mean water heater going thru the house
    was that much of the house then colapsed into the basement.

    Charly

    Seven to ten years ago an oil fired hot water heater blew in a home
    next to my parent's home in Connecticut.  The fire department
    responded, as another neighbor called and reported a furnace
    "backfire".  When they arrived to find the walls of the house off
    the foundation and all windows missing they could not figure out
    what had happened.  My father later pointed out to the fire department
    personnel that there was something that looked like a water heater
    in his garden.  It had lifted off from the basement, thru the first
    floor, ceiling and attic, cleared a 150foot maple tree and dug in
    about a foot and a half in my Dad's garden.  The house was later
    leveled and rebuilt.  Again, luckily, no one was home at the time.
    
    Watch the safety valves and overtemp cutoffs!!!
    
    

    Help with leaking hot water heater. I have a 40 gal gas hot water
    heater that has started dripping water out of the overflow valve
    at a rate of about 2 gal. every two or three days. It is only three
    years old. Any ideas as to where to begin?????

    Replace the overflow/pressure valve SOON. My 3-4 year water heater
    did the same thing. I played with the lever on the valve trying
    to reset it and stop the leak and it only starting leaking faster.
    
    The valve probably cost less than $10 and should be available at
    most hardware stores. I think that they are pretty universal too.
    Just match the pipe thread size and pressure relief rating that
    should be on a tag on the valve.
    
    Too replace... shut off the heater, drain the water level down below
    the level of the valve, unscrew the old one, put teflon tape on
    the new valve and screw it in. Refill the tank FIRST, turning on
    a hot water faucet until only water (NO air) comes out and then
    turn the heater back on.

    Charly

    I had thought the valve may be the problem. When we first moved
    in to the house the water heater leaked a small bit so I mentioned
    it to the builder at the time. He talked about a pressure problem
    in the developement and gave me the impression that the problem
    was not with the heater. For ~ $10.00 and an hours work, it's worth
    a shot. I'll change it tommorrow. Thanks for the advice
    
    Jack

     Those valves release pressure at 150psi. If this was the pressure
    in your house, not only would you know it, but you'd be destroying
    other water-operated appliances left and right.
    
      Just change the valve.  (very easy)
    
    					Kenny

    There is also a possibility that the water system in the house may
    need a air buffer from the valves being shut off quickly (like a
    solenoid valve from a dishwasher or a cloths washer). The quick
    bang from the solenoid valve may cause problems like this.
                                                
    We have a in line pressure reducer, dropping the pressure down to
    80 psi.
    
    hope this helps.
    
    /cal

re: Water pressure reducer...

Where did you obtain your pressure reducer? How does it work and what 
are their approximate prices?

    The water heater woes I mentioned in note #937 are still with me.
    I replaced the overflow/pressure release valve this weekend with
    the exact same valve ( it senses both pressure and temperture )
    and the problem did not go away. It continues to drip water. Most
    of th eflow comes when the heater is trying to get back up to temp
    after a shower or two. Someone mentioned a pressure reducing valve
    and the problems it may solve. i.e. water hammer, which I have with
    both the washing machine and the dishwasher. Could this be related
    to my problem? And if so, how would/could I make this determination?
    All suggestions welcome.
    
    Jack

    The problem you mention (the overflow/pressure valve dripping water)
    is one I had this year.  I also had the valve replaced, but the
    dripping continued.  Then I had the small expansion tank replaced,
    and the problem for me was solved.   The expansion tank on my oil
    burner is a small tank on top of the burner.  Good luck!
    
    Dick McGowan

    
    
    I bought one from County Supply near Drum Hill in Chelmsford. It
    will allow you to adjust your  water pressure from 40 to 75 pounds
    and costs about $63. Perhaps you should put in an inline pressure
    guage and see what the actual pressure is before buying a regulator.
    They sell for about $10.
    
    wayne\ 

    That water pressure regulator was what I was trying to tell you
    about. It reduces the hammer effect from the water valve solenoids.
    To further reduce the hammer effect, a air column or expansion airtrap
    might help buffer the hammer effect. 
    
    It's too bad that I cannot be there to show you what I mean.
    
    good luck.
    
    /cal hoe

>< Note 863.15 by USMRM2::CBUSKY >
>                    -< And you think you've got problems! >-

>    Talk about your water heater problems... did you hear about the
>    one in Lunnenburg Mass. (I think) this past weekend. Seems there
>    was the oil fired water heater that the home owners were having
>    some problems with. Steam pressure built up and the thing took off
>    like a ROCKET! And I do mean ROCKET. It lifted off the base in the
>    basement went thru the first AND SECOND FLOOR of the house, picking
>    up a mattress along the way, and then went thru the ROOF. The water
>    heater and mattress landed about 60 feet from the house.

>    Fortunately No One was home at the time.

>    Charly

I hate when that happens.

	I have a four year old contemporary built on a slab with electric
	everything.  Since I have decided to move, it seemed logical that
	the electric hot water heater should start leaking.  Last night
	when I noticed the water on the floor I started to look around to
	see if I could spot where it was coming from.  On the side of the
	heater is a little sign that says "This heater, as all heaters, will
	eventually leak.  So don't put anything near it that can be 
	damaged , etc, etc...".  Does this pretty much mean that it's time
	for a new heater, or is there some kind of maintenance/repair type
	thing that can be done?  Four years doesn't seem like a decent
	lifespan for a water heater.  The previous owner didn't leave any
	manuals to refer to.

	Adv<thanks>nce,

	John...

I have a five year old contemporary - gas heater - same experience.

Heaters - I was told - have a glass liner which will eventually crack.

Mine was covered by a warranty and was replaced for $50 (labor only).

Dennis

    Four years does seem a bit short for a water heater but I guess
    it would depend what was in your water and the type of water heater
    liner you have.
    
    Are you *sure* its the water heater?  Do you see the leak?  Could
    it be the pressure relief valve or any of the supply lines?  Have
    you moved the water heater or worked on any other pipes in the area
    recently?
    
    Phil

re:0

4 years is short for a water heater but this seems to be reflective
of the junk which is made nowadays.  We replaced a 28 year old water
heater in my mother's house with a new one.  Guess how long it
lasted - 5 years + 5 months.  The stuff they make now is junk -
pure and simple.

You have no choice but to replace the heater.  Unless it was leaking
from the inlet/outlet connections or elements (if electric) there
would normally be no other place for the water to come from unless
the liner was failing.

-peter

>4 years is short for a water heater but this seems to be reflective
>of the junk which is made nowadays.  We replaced a 28 year old water
>heater in my mother's house with a new one.  Guess how long it
>lasted - 5 years + 5 months.  The stuff they make now is junk -
>pure and simple.

I agree that I'm probably a victim of the junk theory.  Everything else
in the house (plumbing, skylights, bathtub, siding) seems to be dying an
unusually early death.  The house I'm buying is 27 and has original
everything.  At this rate, I'm not sure if this house will even be
standing in 27 years.

So, roughly how much is a new water heater?

    Older water heaters are fiberglassed lined much like your house
    is lined; NOT the tank. The tank is steel and it eventually rusts
    out. I bought a 13 year old house with a Rheem tank. Instructions
    says to FLUSH every six months. I did. It leaked.
    
    Lesson learned, if the previous owners didn, don't. What happened
    was the tank developed all sorts of rust. The flushing desturbed
    the rust and the tank leaked.
                
    I have a new tank with the swirl action when the water enters. Keeps
    the stuff stirred enough that the tank rusts evenly I guess. I was
    told that the amount of mineral is proportional to how long the
    tank lasts.
    
    Sears markets an electric lifetime all plastic tank that's guaranteed
    against leaking, ever or free replacement. Doesn't have one for
    gas, though.
    
    /cal
    

    If you have Mass Electric you could avert the problem by asking
    to rent one of their water heaters.  This will cost you $5.00 a
    month until you sell the house, and push the real problem onto the
    new owners.
    
    Just a thought.
    
    Elaine

    To all amateur plumbers out there:
    
    Is it required to have a Vacuum Relief Valve on a hot water heater
    tank?
    
    I'm not talking about Temperature and Pressure Relief Valves, which
    are required by safety codes.  This is a different valve, which
    is attached to the cold water inlet to the tank, by means of a "T"
    connection, i.e., the valve does not go in series with the water
    flow, but is attached so that the valve can sense the vacuum present
    in the water line.
    
    My current HW tank has one, and I've seen them on other HW tanks.
    
    The installation manual for the tank doesn't mention this valve.
                                         
    What happens if i don't put one in?  
    
    When I picked one up in Grossmans and asked an attendant what this
    thing is, they told me it was also a temperature/pressure relief
    valve, but I don't believe 'em.
    
    I'm adding (not replacing) a hot water tank, to get separate hot
    water for each unit of my 2 family, and I'd like to do this right
    the first time.
    
    Thanks for any insight.
    
    Steve
    
    

    I don't know about code, but the instructions for my water heater
    (electric) stated that a vacuum break was _required_.
    
    Rich

      Re: .0
    
      It IS required in Mass.  If I remember right, the plumber who
    installed my water heater considered it stupid but never-the-less
    it is required by Mass. code.  The idea behind it is that if the 
    water line from the town ever developed a vacuum instead of pressure,
    this valve would not allow 'contaminated' water from your tank into
    the towns supply thereby contaminating the neighborhood water supply.
    
    -Jim
    
    

    The vacuum breaker is there to protect the tank from collapsing.
    A vacuum on the water mains can result from the water being shut
    off or by a fire truck sucking the water out of a hydrant. A few
    years ago the fire dept in my town did that and collapsed several
    water heaters which were not properly installed.

    - Rich
    

    
    	For the past 10 years or so most water heaters are made of glass
    inside. The biggest problem I was told was that people have there
    water pressure up too high which causes the water heater to fracture.
    
    	-Steve-

>    The vacuum breaker is there to protect the tank from collapsing.

	Also, in electric heaters in particular, if there is an air source
such as an open faucet, the tank can be sucked dry. The exposed heating
elements can overheat and create a potential fire hazard.

								--Mike

    RE	.6
    
    	My old house had a rented hot water heater when we bought it.
    Cost was about $5 a month for about 4 months when we received a
    letter asking if we wished to purchase it. 
    	The rental charges must have paid for it because final purchase
    price was $1.00 and $0.05 for tax. 
    
    	Not to bad a deal.
    
    					...Dave
    

    
    thanks for the info...
    
    picked up the vacuum relief valve at SPAGs for $7.35, and a special
    brass T connector for it for 2.69. 
    
    Steve
    

    Problem:  
    Hot water "pulsates" from kitchen sink spout, only when H.W. faucet 
    is partially on, happens intermittently although it seems more 
    frequent lately.  Water also briefly pulsated in shower but only once 
    so far.  Bathroom faucets have not (yet) exhibited this.
    
    Considerations:
    House is new, occupied 6 months.  Never experienced this until
    recently.  Started happening right after I turned up the temperature
    on the hot water tank (from just above 'warm' to 'hot') BUT I turned
    it back down to exactly where it was, and it's still pulsating from
    the kitchen sink (spout) only when partially on.
    
    Builder's plumber (new guy, not the original installer) came in,
    saw the problem, and said, "Duhhhhh."  Then after mesmerizing himself
    watching the kitchen spout pulsate for 5 minutes, he intelligibly
    said that it sounds like a water hammer problem and would need to
    install something (forget what he called it) to cushion it.
    
    Any ideas on what the problem might be?  Could it be a water hammer
    problem?  If so, why is this happening only now, 6 months later?  
    Could the house "settling" possibly cause this, and would this cushion
    be the solution?  Finally, could the hot water heater (gas-fired)
    possibly be faulty?
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    JSS

    re: .19
    I don't see how it could be water hammer.  Water hammer is when
    you suddenly turn off a faucet and the momentum of the water moving
    through the pipes causes a "thud!" sound becauses the water now
    has no place to go. I don't have any good idea of what it might 
    actually be, but water hammer sounds wrong to me.
    
    (For the record, water hammer is taken care of by putting air chambers
    at strategic locations along the pipe runs, generally at the ends
    of long straight sections, so the air can cushion the shock when
    the water suddenly stops flowing when a faucet gets turned off.)

    If you have faucets with separate washers (as opposed to the one-lever
    types, or any of the other fancy setups available these days) it
    may be a loose washer, vibrating in the water flow.  I would guess
    it is something like that, or some sort of object that somehow got
    into the water line and is getting tossed around as the water flows
    past it.  From what you say, I gather that it only occurs at a
    specific flow rate.

I would say that when you turned the heat up, more air is escaping from the
water in your pipes, and when it comes out of the faucet, the bubbles are
causing a vibration.

A possibility?

Jim.

    Some clarification of the problem in question....
    
    - the water pulsates similar to the Water Pik shower massagers.
    
    - it only pulsates when the water is turned on to a medium flow
      rate.  Low or high flow works normal.
    
    - water temperature was lowered and problem still remains.
    
    One of the last replies mention that there may be something loose
    or kicking around near the faucet.  Sounds logical.  More suggestions
    are welcome since I feel I'll have to tell this plumber what's wrong!
    Thanks.
    
    JSS

Just a WAG, but when I mistakenly installed a globe valve backwards and 
tried to use it to reduce the flow, it pulsated when set to low flow 
rates. I think it happened because the valve seal was so close to the 
seat that the water flow began a destructive vibration pattern. Since 
then I've swapped the valve end-for-end and no problem.

Check to see if the shutoff valve(s) are installed with the arrow 
pointing in the direction of water flow.

    Problem solved thanks to suggestions in here.  Turned out to be 
    the shut-off valve on the kitchen sink hot water faucet.  When I 
    took it apart, the screw on the bottom of this valve was loose,
    evidently causing the valve to "flutter" at a certain rate of 
    flow.
    
    JSS

    
    	I've been noticing that for the last week or so, my hot water
    (only) has been coming out of the faucet with a slight rusty color.
    Since I've noticed this on two sinks, is it safe to say that my water
    heater is about to quit on me?  It would not be totally unexpected,
    but I'm just looking for confirmation...
    
    	'Tis the season for more big bills, fa la la la la, la la la la.
    
    							-craig

When I was living in Raymond NH, I had a similar problem and I had to
    flush the the tank once every two months.   Attach a garden hose
    to the faucet at the bottom of the tank run it outside or to a sink
    and turn it on.  You'll be amazed at at the amount of rust that
    will come out of the bottom of that tank.  Let it run untill it
    cleans up.
    
    
    Bruce
    

    There are two possibilities, both of which are not nice:
    
    1) There is junk in your main water line.  You would notice this more
    with hot water because the tank acts like a settling tank.  The
    junk settles in the bottom and gets flushed out when you turn on
    the  hot water.  You might just be able to flush out your hot water
    tank.  However some people here have suggested that it may flush
    out the rust holding your olf tank together!  I flush out mine every
    month.
    
    2) The water tank is going.  Keep a watch on it because they tend
    to fail catastrophically.  They leak water on the floor and the
    tank adds water because it's level is low, then it leaks more, ect.
    
    	I replaced my gas fired hot water tank last June with a 40 gal
    for about $350.  On another note has *anyone* ever replaced the
    zinc cathode in the tank that prevents the tank from rusting away?
    The owners manual said I should replace this every two years.  The
    water heater was made by RUDD.
    
    				=Ralph=
          

    
    	Thanks for the replies thus far.
    
    	If I flush it, how do I know if it was only settlement being
    stirred up or if the tank is going bad?  In short, is there any
    way of knowing when the tank is going bad (other than being out
    of warrantee :-) short of the catastrophic failure mode?
    
    							-c

    Doesn't a hot water tank draw hot water off the top ??  Since HW
    rises that's the way that I would build one.
    
    If this is true, how is it that sediment is being drawn off the
    bottom?
    
    Maybe I'm all wet. (sorry)

    RE .1
    
    DO NOT, repeat DO NOT flush your hot-water tank IF THIS IS THE FIRST
    TIME in 14 years. I did just that when we moved into our house.
    It was the original tank made by Rheem. Flushing a 14 year old tank
    disturbs the rust particles and the tank is guaranteed to leak from
    the little rust pin-holes.
    
    We replaced the tank a week after I flushed the tank.
    
    /cal
    BTW, when replacing the tank, you pay for the warranty. A difference
    in the warranty may cost about $60/year warranty. I priced the
    installation myself versus Sears contract; $40/parts for me to do
    it against $80 for the Sears contractor who had all the parts and
    did it in 20 minutes while it would have taken me about 4 hours.
    
    

    
    
    	If you have an electric hot water heater then the tank is probably
    made of glass like mine is. The instructions say to drain about
    1 gallon every month to get rid of any sediments in the bottom.
    Could it be that the town is flushing the fire hydrants ?? My town
    does this every year and they warn us that our water will be rusty
    colored for a few moments.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    re:  .4
    
      Under normal operation, water is drawn from the top of the tank.
    When you drain it, the spigot is at the bottom of the tank and draws
    water from there.
    
    -Jim
    

    
    Re: .7, .4
    
    	I think the question in .4 is "since the sediment is on the
    bottom, how come it is coming out of the draw pipe on the top?"
    My guess is that the incoming cold water (whose outlet pipe is at
    the bottom of the inside of the heater, I think) is stirring up
    the sediment enough to make it come out the top even when only a
    small amount is being drawn off.  I don't know, just a guess.
    
    Re: .somewhere_back_there
    
    	I agree, flushing a tank when its previous history is not known
    (but inferred as being bad) might kill it.  Gag, what a choice.
    Either flush the tank, my wallet, or both if flushing the tank kills
    it.  I think given these choices, I'll flush it after having already
    priced/picked a replacement so that the possible down-time is not
    long.  How quickly does Sears do the work after the order is placed?
    
    							-c
                 

>    	I replaced my gas fired hot water tank last June with a 40 gal
>    for about $350.  On another note has *anyone* ever replaced the
>    zinc cathode in the tank that prevents the tank from rusting away?
>    The owners manual said I should replace this every two years.  The
>    water heater was made by RUDD.

    Did you have a plumber do it? I did mine this summer for $220 including
    fittings. Major $$ diference!
    
    The old tank had the cathode. I tried to remove it to see what the
    condition was. What a joke!! After 1 hr. of trying - nothing. Hopefully
    the new tank will be more responsive.

    re: .8 - on sears doing it....
    
    On turkey day, or 6 year old gas hot water heater started with
    a slow leak.  Instead of waiting for bad to get worse, I shut
    the water and gas off, and drained the tank.  The next morning,
    I went to Sears (this was 8am the day after turkey day - already
    a zoo at the malls!!).  They had a 40gal gas water heater (short)
    with 3 year extra extended warranty (8 year basic on the tank itself),
    installed for about $400.  I paid for it at 8:30 am - they installed
    it at 4:00 pm.  Sure - I might have saved some bucks by installing
    it myself - but I don't mess with gas appliances, and the 
    convenience of having them do it that quickly made up my mind.

    Sears advertises 24 hour installation on water heaters (except
    sundays and holidays) - and they met that goal with us.  This
    was from the Sears in Nashua, NH.
    
    andy
    
    

    
    I have a hot water heater problem that maybe someone can help me
    with.  I have a Sears electric hot water heater that is about 2
    years old. Yesterday we had no hot water and I found that the reset
    switch was tripped. I then pushed in the reset button last night
    and I had hot water for my shower this morning.  My wife just called
    me and said there's no more hot water. The reset switch tripped
    again.  Does anyone know what is trips this switch? One thing I
    noticed is that the water was EXTREMELY HOT, hotter than it normally
    is. Could the thermostat be malfunctioning causing the heating 
    element to overheat the tank causing this switch to trip?  Also,
    if the tank is overheating should the relief valve release pressure?
    
    
    Bob

	re: .11
	
	    From the  symptoms,  I'd  suspect  a faulty thermostat.  It's
	causing  the  temperature    to    rise    enough   to  trip  the
	overtemperature sensor but not  enough  to  cause  a vent out the
	pressure relief valve.  To  do  that,  both  the  thermostat  and
	overtemperature cutoff would have to fail simultaneously.
	    Depending on the age of your heater, you can get repair parts
	at a Sears parts warehouse.  All  you need to is supply them with
	the model number.  To replace same is  also  simple.  Cut off the
	power    and    remove    the    offending   unit.    That's  the
	trick...determining which  of  the two are defunct.  I'd approach
	the problem by  looking  at  the  thermostat  AFTER  the overtemp
	cutoff has tripped.   One  will  be  'off'  and the other will be
	stuck 'on'.  You'll need a VOM to ensure that there's no power at
	the heaters and the ohmmeter to determine which is stuck 'on'.
	
	Chris

    
    Thanks .12, I called the Sears parts center and they said they had
    one in stock for $12.99.  They said for my model heater there was
    only one thermostat so I guess this makes it even easier to replace
    since I don't have to figure out which one it is.  
    
    
    Thanks much, Bob

    Being in constant fear of my hot-water heater going I'd like to
    learn a little bit more about symptoms of a degrading heater and
    find out what's wrong with my heater.
    
    From previous notes I've learned that there are two types of heaters:
    gas, and electric.  Gas heaters (while more energy efficient due
    to gas vs electric) have metal tanks.  The metal tanks can collect
    rust and leak, especially if you flush the tank.  Correct me if
    I'm wrong but glass tanks, on the otherhand, are ok to flush as
    they don't collect rust on the tank.  Glass tanks should not leak
    like a metal tank would unless the glass breaks.  Do I need to worry
    about puddles on the floor with a glass tank?
    
    My hot water runs out after a couple minutes even though the elements
    conduct.  My Electric heater has two elements which test out ok
    (they conduct).  Previous notes have lead me to believe that the
    elements are ok if they conduct.  A plumber I spoke to didn't agree.
    He said the elements get dirty and need to be replaced (by an
    electrican)?  Is this true?
    
    Has anyone ever had a similar problem or does anyone know where I 
    could buy the elements for a Rheem tank?

    >Glass tanks should not leak like a metal tank would unless 
    >the glass breaks.  Do I need to worry about puddles on the 
    >floor with a glass tank?
    
   

    Glass tanks WILL leak... I replaced the one in my house last year,
    because it was leaking at the point where the heating elements screwed
    in, which is metal.
    
    
    Ske
    

    You might want to consider renting a water heater from the gas company.
    Rates are about $3.50/month, which is $42.00/year.  If anything
    goes wrong, the gas company comes to your home and fixes it at their
    expense.
    
    Also, if you've got an all-electric house, you still have hot water
    when the electricity goes out.

    ... at least in the Boston area -- Boston Gas no longer rents
    appliances.  I just called about a month ago, when my hot water
    heater sprung a leak.
    
    Jim
    

    
    	Water heaters usually have a 5 year Guarantee....thats about
    the time it takes them to develop a leak. You probably can bet on
    it.....especially where the water is "agressive" and has a tendency
    to "pinhole" even the copper tubing (New England in particular).
    
    A water softener on the house supply will extend it longer.
    
    How's your pressure? Did you ever look at your pipes into and
    out of the heater? I'll bet that they have coronary artery disease.
    
    Theres a set of 3-4" nipples you can buy with plastic coating which 
    protects against the buildup which reduces your waterflow.
    
    You can install the heating elements yourself...any plumbing supply
    place can help, but if you have 5 years on the tank, replace it.
    ...and put the plastic nipples in while your at it.
    
    				___GM___
    

    Thanks for the answers.  I appreciate the help.

    My mistake brand is a Morflow not a Rehm.  Take is about 7-8 years
    old.  Water pressure is good.
    
    How do you drain the tank?  I tried to drain the tank by shutting off
    the water intake, turning on the kitchen faucet, and then opening the
    drain valve (with garden hose attached) but less than a bucket came
    out.   When I closed the drain valve and opened the intake hot water
    started coming out of the kitchen faucet (the power was still off).
    Am I doing something wrong?  
    
    How do you remove the elements?  I took off the access covers
    and unscrewed everything I could (4 bolts holding a plate to the
    glass tank) but it wouldn't move and I didn't want to force it.
    Should I have?
    
    Any other advice before I toss in the towel and call a plumer or
    elcrician?  (I'd prefer not to be defeated by a water heater)
    
    Gary
    

    Hi,
    
      Let me tell you my experience..I had an element short out in
    my electric hot water heater.
    
      I went to the hardware store and bought a universal element
    for 1800 watt range.  this was a special unit not just a loop
    of metal but curved like a series of esses the surface of the
    element was more than four times as great.  I removed the upper
    element and installed this one, still popping the breaker.  I
    did not want to wait for another day for hot water so I just 
    disconnected the lower element and powered up the unit..hot water
    from extremely cold water in just under an hour..with only one
    element.  And now we had plenty of hot water.. prior to that it
    would run out if one person took a shower, now three in a row and
    still hot water.  GREAT Improvement!
    
      I turned off the pump (no water pressure into the unit) and opened
    all the hot water taps available, and then drained the unit with
    the drain tap.
    
      I had no problems, but you may have to tap the old element to
    loosen the unit, they may have a sealing compound around the element
    as this is the main cause of leaks.  Also some elements are screwed
    into the tank, especially older technology.
    
      Good luck and I hope that this helps.
    
    Dave

    re: .5
    
      Sounds like you used the proper procedure to drain it but it also
    sounds like maybe the faucet got clogged with gunk.  Did it pour
    out forcefully when you opened it up or did it start slowing
    immediately? You may want to try the procedure again but keep
    opening/closing the valve to see if that helps.  Maybe you can snake
    a wire through the valve to clear the blockage...if that is the
    problem.  When draining the heater, DO NOT leave the power on as
    the elements will burn out almost immediately. As far as the elements 
    are concerned, they should show a very low resistance.  The elements 
    my heater uses are 9 ohms so any other scale setting than 1X would
    show a short or complete continuity. Elements themselves are fairly 
    generic.  I was told this when one of mine went bad but I went ahead 
    and bought one at SEARS.  SEARS sells generic elements and they cost 
    about $10 each.  Also, while you are at it, if your water heater
    has two elements, make sure that they are both set at the same temp.
    I did end up having to replace mine a week or two after I replaced
    the element.  It developed a leak at another place so I'm sure it
    was coincidental.  I was asking the plumber who installed the new
    one about the various brands and warranty's and he said that there
    are maybe two manufacturers of water heaters.  He also said that
    the difference between one with a five year warranty and one with
    a ten year warranty was only the warranty label on the heater. 
    Whether or not this is true, I don't know but I thought it was
    interesting. 
    
    -Jim
    

    
    	Well, just to close out the question I started in .0, the hot
    water tank failed quite miserably Saturday night around 10pm.  (Of
    course...)  I won't go into the details about the floors, but suffice
    it to say that I didn't get to bed until 2:30am.
    
    	I went to Sears yesterday and got a top-of-the-line 40 gallon
    gas heater for $329.  One catch, though, Sear's normal delivery
    time is "by the end of the week" if you don't use their own (and
    quite expen$ive) plumbers.  I ended up taking it home myself (quite
    a sight in my little Honda CRX!) and got it installed today by a
    local plumber for $53.  (Sear's installation starts at $110...)
    
    						-c

     My  hot water tank went Sunday morning. I went to Sears also. Almost
    bought it on the spot, but I wanted to make sure it would fit since
    their tank looked a lot higher then mine. So we went back home to
    measure and found that it would fit, and headed back to Sears to
    buy it.  On the way there we stopped at a local True Value store
    to pick up a couple of items. While there I looked at their hot
    water heaters, and wouldn't you know it they were having a sale.
    So I picked up a 50 gallon with a higher energy saving rating then
    the Sears for $156 (Same warrenty also).

    
    Re: .15
    
    	I saw the True Value advertisement in the paper yesterday. 
    The picture of the 40 gallon tank was good enough to make out the
    "yearly estimated energy cost" on the yellow sticker.  Sure looked
    to me like $281.  The Sears was rated at $178.  Did I misread the
    advertisement or is their 50 gallon model a *lot* more efficient
    than their 40?  (The 50 gallon in the picture was turned just enough
    that I couldn't make out its rating...)
    
    							-craig

    Have drained tank and have been able to remove elements.  Drain
    plug must have been cloged and elements needed some prying loose.

    Do I need to replace the elements if they still conduct and look like 
    new?  Are they still 100% effective.  I cleaned them with steel wool
    and put them back.

    Is there any way to tell if it's time to replace an electric heater
    before you get a puddle on the floor?  Where and how often do glass
    tanks leak?

    Well i don't want to sound rude, so please bear with me.
    
    We are all victims of "consumer suckering" i went round and
    round with this with Comgas about a year ago.
    
    Her's how we get efficiency:
    1. Tanks of today are in fact better insulated than those
       of yesteryear.
    2. The real breakthru is in the burner, instead of putting in
       a 55,000 btu burner most of today's units are equipped
       with 30k + btu, up to around 39k depending on the size of the
       tank.
    
    (2) is with tongue in cheek. of course they will use less fuel
    in the same amount of time as yesteryears, they just don't consume
    as much. But they don't recover as well either. They have
    reduced their performance, and "dubbed"it 
    efficiency. BULLSH**
    
    When comparing water heaters, look closely at the burner btu
    rating and the recovery per hr. if 2 have the same btu and
    recovery, but different operating costs then look at the 
    cost per therm on the yellow sticker, i'll bet their different.
    
    Better still find out what the costs are, and calculate your 
    own operating costs for each unit.
    
    enough said, i get real upset for the claims of efficiency
    when my dog could have invented the same.
    
    
    Jim.
    

    
    Re: .17
    
    	No, you weren't being rude.  All you did was point out that
    my requst for a comparison didn't include enough info.  The tank
    from Sears is 40 gallon, 40,000 btu and heats 46 gallons per hour.
    (Sure beats my old water heater -- for its 40,000 btus it only recovers
    33 gallons per hour.)
    
    							-c

      I believe the elements either work or they don't.  They are just
    resistors (as far as I know).  If the elements look like new (I
    assume you mean they are very clean), it doesn't sound like you
    have hard water.  I don't know if one could tell if it will go bad
    now but I would take a look at it each night when you get home for
    a couple of weeks if you really suspect it will develop a leak from
    this.  Mine leaked about a week and a half after but I have very
    hard water and mega-crud in the tank (I don't think it was ever
    drained!  When I went to get a replacement from Sears, the guy
    mentioned that they sell/replace more water heaters in Shrewsbury
    than any other town in the area.  You might try talking to your
    neighbors to get a feel for how long waters generally last in your
    immediate area.

    -Jim

    I've got a rather odd question about hot water heaters...
    
    Over thanksgiving, our gas hot water heater went, and sears put
    a new one in on a days notice (not cheap installation - but over
    the holiday I took anything I could get).  Anyway - it works great.
    However, I've noticed that periodically the kitchen faucet (which
    has that small screen in the aerator on the faucet) will start to
    clog up.  When I take the aerator apart, I find a bunch of small
    fibers gathered in the screen section.  I remove them and let them
    dry - and they look very similar to fiberglass insulation.  Being
    somewhat puzzled, I went down to the washing machine, and removed
    both the cold and hot water hoses (the end of each of these has
    a small strainer basket).  The basket on the cold water inlet was
    perfectly clear - but the basket on the hot water inlet had
    the same sort of "fiber" buildup, and a slightly red tinge to the
    residual water near the strainer basket.
    
    Now my question - could there be some extra stuff floating in this
    new water tank that's purging itself slowly?  Should I be concerned
    that it's some excees insulation INSIDE of the tank?  There are
    no leaks or problems with the heater itself.  When they installed
    the heater, they told me to go upstairs and turn the hot water on.
    When I did it, a bunch of red gunk came out - probably containing
    the same sort of stuff I'm seeing now.  I asked them if it was normal
    for this inital burst to come out and they said yes.  But I'm a
    bit concerned about seeing the same sort of stuff after 2 months
    of use.
    
    thanks for any help you could give.
    
    Andy
    

�   When they installed
�   the heater, they told me to go upstairs and turn the hot water on.
    
    I also had Sears install a gas hot water heater to replace mine
    when it went over the holidays (on a Saturday night, why is it always
    on a Saturday night?!??).  The reason for turning on the hot water
    upstairs is to allow the air in the tank and hot water pipes to be
    purged as the new tank begins to fill with water.  No "red gunk"
    came out of my faucets and I haven't noticed any clogging of the
    faucet aerators in either the bathroom or the kitchen.
    
    Jim

    Andy - is the heater an electric model?  If so I'd check round the
    elements to see if the manufacturer 'pinched' some insulation in
    the tank when tightening the elements.  Also, could the particles
    you're finding be part of a 'screen' or filter that's breaking down
    somewhere?  Jus' my .02 worth.
    
    -Stan
    

    re: past couple
    
    I've checked the heater (which is gas, by the way) for pinched
    insulation around the fittings, etc, and can find nothing.  There
    is a spot on the top of the tank where an extra hole in the external
    case exists, and you can see the insulation there.  I compared the
    fibers from the faucet to the insulation there - and it looks almost
    identical.  I'm pretty sure that in manufacturing the heater, some
    of the external insulation fell into the tank.  But how do you tell
    if you've flushed it all out?  Boy - this is depressing - I'm starting
    to feel itchy all over just thinking about it...  I called Sears
    service this morning, and they're sending someone out tomorrow.
    We'll see what they say - I'd like to hear an answer something like
    "We'll replace it" - but I'm preparing for something like "Ain't
    our hot water tank - must be in your existing pipes.."
    
    We don't have any filters or anything like that in the house - and
    since its only the hot water that produces the fibers - I'm pretty
    sure it's the tank........
    
    I'll let y'all know what happens.  thanks for the help so far.
    
    andy
    

    
    Try flushing the tank out yourself. Is there a drain valve at the
    bottom of the tank??? If so then turn the heat off to the tank and
    connect a hose the the drain and open the valve. Do this for a while
    to clear the tank.
    
    Mike

If Sears is sending someone out tomorrow, then I don't think that he should
be flushinng out the tank.  

If there really is insulation inside, then it is not his problem to fix.
why make it better for when they show up?  

re: 1789.24

>If Sears is sending someone out tomorrow, then I don't think that he should
>be flushinng out the tank.  
>
>If there really is insulation inside, then it is not his problem to fix.
>why make it better for when they show up?  

Just because Sears is coming don't expect the problem to be corrected.
I'll cite my recent case with an electric dryer.

1. Sears washer and dryer delivered on 1 Dec 1987.

2. Use washer and dryer for 4 small loads a day or two later.
   Automatic timer dial works for some loads then stops working.
   Timer no longer moves in automatic dry cycle.

3. Sears service comes out on 28 Dec. They REFUSE to check the timer,
   electronic sensor, etc. because I had the dryer exhausted into one
   of those internal exhaust kits.

   They said that they would return after I had the exhaust installed to the 
   outside.

4. I had exhaust installed to outside on 4 Jan, problem with timer still 
   present.

5. In the intrim, whilst investigating purchasing air conditioners, I discussed
   the problem with Whirlpool (they make the Sears dryers) in Benton Harbor, 
   Michigan. They agreed that it sounded like the exhaust had nothing to do
   with the problem, i.e. "improper" exhaust might increase drying time but the
   timer should still move.

6. Sears came again (different personnel). I explained all of the above.
   After fumbling around in puzzlement with his circuit tester, he FINALLY
   checked the timer motor. Voila, it was a busted!

7. He had to order the part, so they'll be back again some day.

Warranties are great but they sure do not compenstate for aggrevation and time 
lost.

    
    
    	Just as a note.

       	 My friend John in the owner of Leominster Appliance
    company and gets many calls from Sears to help them out. John says
    that Sears prices for repair are about 25% higher than his. There
    service people get paid by the job and not the hour. They get so
    many points for each job and when the points add up they have put
    in a full day and can go home. This means that they could spend
    20 hours a day on the job not knowing what there doing but only
    get paid for 8. This always gives them incentive for rushing a 
    job ! If you ever buy parts for a Sears appliance buy them from
    an independent. They are the same Sears parts but at alot bigger
    savings and quicker delivery.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Re. 25, Re.24. Flushing vs. Not Flushing and Sears repair person coming
    the next day. 
    
    I agree with not flushing the tank if the repair person is due the next
    day. WHY would you want to flush the "insulation" out of the tank and
    "correct" the problem before the repair person shows up? You would
    probably be billed for a service call and still have to keep the tank.
    If I HAD insulation in my tank, I would want a new one. 

    Charly

    Hi Gary,
    
    Would you be interested in purchasing a slightly used 40 gallon
    water heater (electric)? I recently replaced mine because I thought
    it was leaking, but it turned out to be the outlet pipe, not the
    heater. It was still under warranty, so I got it replaced for a
    nominal "service charge." There is nothing wrong with it, and it's
    about 2 years old. If you're interested, let's talk!
    
    Regards,
    
    Jim
    

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this, but how do you know that you have
not been drinking any of these fibers?  Or maybe these fibers are on your
clothes?

I see the possibility of a MAJOR health hazard.  What if these fibers are
fiberglass??? 

Don't flush the evidence down the drain.  You may need it in court!

Jim.

    Well - Sears came out today, and saw the evidence (No, I didn't
    flush the tank or anything).  Without any hesitation, they began
    the process to replace the whole water heater - should be installed
    on Saturday.  I'm fairly satisfied with that.
    
    As far as a health hazard - I think we're probably ok.  Because
    the water where we live doesn't taste that great, we drink bottled
    water out of a water cooler (and cook with it, too).  The kitchen
    and bathroom faucets and the washer downstairs each have screen
    strainers in the water inlets which has caught the particles from
    those sources.  Only place we use hot water other than that is in
    the shower/tub.  I'm not concerned - but if there is a problem
    down the line, Sears' paperwork says they replaced the tank because
    of fiberglass in the water - so they're admitting that anyhow.
    
    Thanks for all of the input - looks like a happy ending here.
    
    andy
    

    a couple pluming question.
    
    1. This problem just started yesterday. When I turned on ( or turn
       off ) the hot water faucet of the kitchen sink on the second
       floor, it cause some ' banging ' noise on the hot water pipe.
       The faucet appears ok - no leaks, good hot water, etc.  The problem
       only occure on this particular faucet, all other faucets are
       fine. Anybody know what cause this ?
    
    2. The toilet tank has a lot of condensation in the cold days. It
       has so much that makes the surrounding floor wet. How can that
       be cured ?
    

                     <Toilet tank condensation>
    
    I had the same problem in the warm weather.  You have three possible
    solutions:
    
    1. Buy insulated toilet tank.  I believe you might have to buy toilet
       and the tank.   You can buy this at Summerville Lumber or any
       plumbing supply store.  I have done this and works great.
    
    2. Buy insulation kit (Spag's carries it) and insulate the tank
       yourself. It does the job and stops the condensation. I have
       done this. It does not come out as good as the factory installed
       insulations.  It will cost you under $10.00.
    
    3. I know some people have hot water line connected to the toilet.
       I am sure it will stop the condensation but it is an expensive
       option in long term.
     
       

    re: .1
    What is the insulation kit ? how do they look and how to apply ?
    I know many people put toilet tank cover ( rug ) over the toilet
    tank. Is that just for decoration or would it also stop the 
    condensation ?

    Insulation is a sheet of about 3/8" thick material (I think styrofoam) which
    you glue to the inside wall of the toilet tank with adhesive ( which
    comes with the kit). You can cut this easily to the desired shape with
    a knife or scissors.  The instructions on the kit are very clear.
    
    I know that the toilet tank cover will help but am not sure if it
    will stop the condensation or not. 

    
    
    	I have a mixer for my toilet water. It's just like a T that
    takes both hot and cold water to the tank thereby eliminating the
    condensation.
    
    	If your pipes are banging you can install an extra 18" of pipe
    that goes to nowhere with a cap on the end. This will fix the problem.
    Most do-it-yourself plumbing books tell you how to do it. 
	I will try to draw a diagram of it.
    
    	-Steve-
        
    
    

        
	       cap	       cap
		X		X
		X		X
	    18"	X	    18" X
		X		X
		X		X
   hot in	X		X	cold in
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX    		XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
		X		X
		X		X
		X		X
		X		X
		X		X
		X		X
	       hot	       cold
        
    
    
    
    
    

    4" works, 18" lasts longer between drainings, and the stubs should
    point up!

    re: .5
    
    This faucet is in the second unit of a two family house. Do I have
    to shut off the water main for the whole house ( supply to both
    units ), or just the line that supply the 2nd unit, or just the
    pipe that directly connected to the kitchen ( the noisy pipe ) ?
    And where is a good place and how to drain off the water ?

    
    
    The extension with the cap is called an air dam. You may only have
    to drain the one unit if each unit has it's own feed. You may also
    want to check the anchors that hold your pipes in place. They sometimes
    come loose and allow the pipes to flop around. 

    re: .19 and subsequent...
    
    Boy - this saga went on for a long time.  AFter Sears was convinced
    that our new water heater had fiberglass in it, they tried to find
    a new one.  3 days later we got a call saying they had one and wanted
    to come out.  They came out and they had the wrong type (tall instead
    of short - wouldn't fit the flue height...).  It then took them
    2 1/2 weeks to find a short 40 gallon tank.  Once they found one,
    they came out, removed the old one, and "attempted" to install the
    new one.  I say "attempted" because the bozos that tried to install
    it couldn't tighten a bolt, let alone do any plumbing work.  The
    tank came with warnings that sweating the joint while attached to
    the tank would melt the inner plastic pipe linings.  And, as you
    could guess, they sweated the joints on while attached to the heater,
    an melted the inner sleeves, and clogged the heater.  They had to
    send out a competent plumber with replacements for the inlet and
    outlet of the tank. This guy finally knew what he was doing, and
    re-plumbed the entire area above the heater.  
    
    Now, after 2 weeks, I have nice shiney pipes, no leaks, and best
    of all - NO FIBERGLASS in the water.  Didn't cost me anything to
    fix all of this - just a lot of hassle with sears service.  Hope
    that when (if) this tank has a problem down the road, that the
    service guys I get know how to sweat a joint!!!!
    
    andy
    

    I have an oil converted coal steam boiler that has about a 20 gallon
    holding tank off the system. The water is circulated through the
    boiler. The previous owner replaced the 1/8" wall brass pipe that
    connected this system up with 3/4" copper pipe about 2 years ago.
    Well,the pipe coming out of the boiler has developed a 1/4" hole
    in a 3' vertical section. Isn't this unusual for a pipe only two
    years old to develop a hole this big? I was wondering, before I
    drain the whole system and replace this pipe, should I use something
    else? What is the difference between the soft copper pipe they sell
    and the hard copper pipe? Will one hold up longer under higher
    temperatures? The water in the tank is near boiling temperature
    when the furnace has heated it.
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Tim_with_a_glob_of_solder_on_his_pipe
    

    	Nope.  Stick with the copper.  The only difference between
    hard and soft copper is that that soft is flexible.  However, 
    you'll find that at 3/4 inches, the flexibility is none too
    great.  As far as the hole, maybe he used a bad piece.  Make
    sure you get type L when you replace it.

    Do you have really acidic water?  Are you getting copper stains
    (green) in your sinks and bathtubs where the water drips?  If
    not, then I'd say a hole after only two years is unusual.
    
    There are 3 thicknesses of copper tubing: K, L, and M.  I can never
    remember which is which with K and M, but L is average thickness
    and is what is most used for water lines.  M (I think) is thin-wall
    and is sometimes used in heating systems.  K (I think) is heavyweight
    and tends to be very hard to find.  
    I'd suggest taking out the old tubing and trying to figure out
    why it sprang a leak.  If there is no obvious reason, chalk it
    up to a fluke and don't worry.  If you take out the tubing and
    discover it's mostly eaten away on the inside and the whole thing
    is on the verge of falling apart you'll have to think about something
    else - maybe treating your water so it's not so corrosive.
    I'd replace what you have with "L" grade and see how it goes.
    The previous owner may have used "M" (or whichever grade the
    thin one is) and it just wasn't enough for some reason.

    Yes, I must have acidic water. I have green stains in the bathtub
    and green stains around the hole in the pipe. I checked last night
    and there are two more holes in the pipe in different places. Could
    the problem be that since the hot water is recycled when heated
    and some escapes as steam, the concentration of acid builds in the
    water until it is used? What is the corrective action for acidic
    water? The rest of the system has the 1/8" wall brass pipe and this
    3' section of copper pipe is the only one that is decaying.
    
    Thanks in adavance
    
    Tim
    

    I'm not sure what you can do to treat acidic water; although I
    assume there is some way to deal with it, I don't know what it
    might be.  Try calling Culligan or another water treatment company
    and see what they say.
    
    Another thought, although I'm not sure this is applicable.  Maybe
    somebody else knows.  Could the difference in materials (copper
    vs. brass) be setting up a galvanic action that is destroying the
    copper tubing?  

    	I doubt if the copper and brass is the cause of trouble.  If
    you want to find out if it's the water, get it tested at an in-
    dependent lab before going to a water treatment place for remedies.
    They'll give you an unbiased breakdown of your water, and it costs
    a minimal amount, $35-$65 depending where you go.  I would still
    tend to believe that the pipe was either old to begin with, or it
    was type M (thin wall).  Did you check this out?

    Somewhere in this file is a reccomendation for a method of neutralizing
    acid water, look it up. The guy is in Ayr I tried him and he is
    great. Cheap, prompt and knows what he is doing. He tested my water
    for free and reccommended a $300 system, installed, when the cheapest
    other estimate I had was $1200 (and even he was trying to push
    a $2400 system). Don't be taken in by the line that neutralizing
    the water will make it so hard that you have to have a softener
    too. It may be needed, but, it may not as well.
    
    I'll look him up when I get home and re-post the reccomendation.
    
    Alan

In hopes of restarting this discussion a little bit...

I'll be buying an electric hot water heater within the next few days.  I've
noticed that most hot water heaters come with only a 5-year warranty. 
The only hot water heaters I've seen that come with more than 5-year warranties
are at Sears (they have 8- and 10-year warranties), but they are considerably
more expensive than the 5-year heaters I've seen elsewhere.

I'm interested in hearing about how long these heaters actually last.  Do
the heaters usually give up right around the time the warranty expires
(like the day after), or does preventative maintenance (draining some water
from the tank monthly) really help to prolong the life of the tank?

	re: warrantees...
	
	How long a heater tank lasts depends entirely on the condition of
	the water you heat.  In my father's area, his 10-year tank lasted
	over 20 years.  He  replaced  an  80  gallon  electric  with a 40
	gallon gas to save money. Tank was still sound.
	
	My place ate tanks at a  high  rate.   Moved in with a 4 year old
	tank and had to replace it (under warantee).    Merrimack  NH had
	acidic  water  'till February when a treatment plan went  online.
	Hopefully that will increase the longevity of my new tank.
	
	One  thing you may want to do is periodically inspect  the  anode
	rod.  It's removable from the top and if you see it deteriorating
	it can be replaced.  As long as that rod's intact, the  corrosion
	will not attack the tank as severely as without one.  The rod  in
	the old tank was completly gone after 4 years.
	
	If  you want to spend the $$, Sears offers a lifetime tank on the
	top    of    the   line  heaters.    They're    electric    only,
	unfortunately...tank's some kind of reinforced plastic.

    The warranty is usually based on somewhat worst case conditions
    (not rock bottom worst case conditions).  This means that most heaters
    outlive the warranty, but not necessarily by much.  My last two
    5-yr heaters went in 6 and 9 years, respectively.

I installed a new water heater this past weekend.  As I was removing the
old water heater, I noticed that it had a vacuum relief valve connected
to the cold water inlet of the water heater.

The installation manual for the new water heater makes no mention of a vacuum
relief valve.  Can anyone tell me the purpose of the vacuum relief valve?

				Thanks,

				Roy

    the vacuum relief valve is an (hopefully) automatic valve which
    allows the tank to be drained down for any reason without having
    to open a valve on the business side of the water heater.
    I found out that Merrimack, NH. requires it on all tank-style water
    heaters. Usually, you can just put your T and P relief valve into
    the "always open" position to drain down a tank. Call your local
    building inspector if it concerns you enough.
    
    Mike

    
    	More specifically (I think), the vacuum relief valve is installed
    on the cold water side of the tank and prevents the hot water from
    being sucked into the cold water pipe, if the pressure is reduced
    from that pipe, for any reason.  For instance, without the valve,
    if you shutoff the water supply and then started draining water
    from the cold water pipe that feeds the tank, you would eventually
    start pulling the hot water from the tank.  This could cause serious
    burns.  I think the vacuum relief valve is a worthwhile safety device.
    

Re:: .16

	.16 describes the valve that is on the cold water side of the tank.  
	They are called vacuum relief valves or bak pressure relief valves.
	The prevent the water from the from draining back into the supply 
	pipes.  They are advised and sometimes required by code on water 
	heaters on inconsistent water supplies, such as a private well or 
	Witches Brook Water Company.  WBWC is a small regulated(:-) 
	water company where I live that does not have a water tower or 
	central back pressure regulator, so everytime the pump fails(about 
	once a month) all the water in the area is drained back into the well.  
	The big danger is not when the water drains back, but when the tank 
	refills.  When the tank refills, a lot of air gets into the system 
	creating water hammers, inconsistent heating of the water and scalding.

	Back pressure valves should also be attached to outside faucets,
	because if you are water your lawn a garden the back pressure can 
	suck the water and any poisons back into the system.

Re:: .15

	.15 describes the pressure relief valve that is usually seperate, 
	but maybe on the hot water pipe on older models.  This valve
	automatically releases pressure, steam and hot water if the 
	thermostat fails and the water gets to hot.  

	You may also find one or two section pipe about 6" long on the cold 
	water pipe.  These are used in hard water areas to prevent galvanic 
	action.

Brian

The purpose of the valve was described somewhere in a note about a year 
ago.  I am connected to a town water supply and was told that code 
requires the valve.  If ever they had to shut down the supply and there was 
any kind of suction in the system, the water heater would collapse. 

Alex

Thanks for the explanations.  I'm going to install the vacuum relief
valve this weekend.  I figure it's better to be safe than sorry.

Re: -1.  You were right.  I'm guilty of starting another discussion
on a topic that was brought up earlier (live and learn, I guess).
Just for future reference... the other topic that discusses this is
in Note 1623.

    What about the pressure relief valve?  Mine has been leaking water
    down the relief pipe for the past month or so.  It showed no signs
    of doing this before.  Is there any easy fix for this?  The tank
    itself seems fine.  Could there be a problem with overly high water
    pressure?  (I live in Nashua, NH).
    
    				Steve

    The relief cvalve can corrode, causing a leak (assuming that its
    not just doing its job because of high pressure). I also live in
    Nashua and have a pressure regulator on my water feed into the
    house. To know if your incoming pressure in high, you would need
    to meter it, and then compare that number to the specs for the water
    heater.
    
    Eric
    

    .re 
    If you have flexible 3/4 inch copper, either it is thin wall
    or you are MUCH stronger than most.

    Galvic action occurs between different materials but it is recommended
    in the books I have read that the use of BRASS between iron and copper
    will lessen the action.  From that I conclude that you will not
    normally have glavic action, or a very slight action, between copper
    and brass.  
    
    If you are seeing green stains (copper) in your sinks and tubs and you
    feel you have acidic water and you are finding holes in your copper
    tubing, you are probably indentifing one area where you need some
    adjustment.  
    

    I recently had to replace my water heater.  On my old water heater
    I wrapped fiberglass insulation around it and got an amazing reduction
    in the hot water bill (separately metered - electric).  The water
    heating bill dropped from ~$50 to ~$30 per month.
    
    On the new water heater, the installation instructions said not to 
    put additional insulation around the heater.  I'm not sure why.
    It seemed to be so successful on my old water heater.  
    
    I also put a  timer on the heater and only heated water from 6am
    to 8 am and 6pm to 8pm.  This reduced the hot water bill another
    $10 per month. Our family of 4 has never run out of how water. 
    
    Does anyone know why new water heaters recommend not using additional
    insulation?  Is there a chance of damaging the tank?  The water
    heater I installed had a life of the house guarrantee from Sears.
    

    When Sears came out to install a new gas hot water heater last winter,
    the plumber said not to wrap the new one, like I had done to the old
    one.  I asked why?  He said that wrapping the heater will help to
    insulate it better, but it will also trap moisture within the unit,
    helping to promote corrosion from the outside of the tank.  He
    also said that the newer units have better internal insulation, so 
    you don't gain as much with a wrap as you may have in earlier models.
    
    I will admit that with a larger new heater (40gal vs. 30gal), the
    cost to heat the water has gone DOWN with the larger heater and no
    wrap.  (many reasons for this - more efficient, etc - but it shows
    that the wrap probably wouldn't have paid for itself).
    
    andy
    

>        I wrapped fiberglass insulation around it and got an amazing reduction
>    in the hot water bill (separately metered - electric).  The water
>    heating bill dropped from ~$50 to ~$30 per month.

    How thick was the insulation?  3 feet?
    

>    I recently had to replace my water heater.  On my old water heater
>    I wrapped fiberglass insulation around it and got an amazing reduction
>    in the hot water bill (separately metered - electric).  The water
>    heating bill dropped from ~$50 to ~$30 per month.

Did the old one leak?  Was that why it was replaced?  If so, that could explain
why the dramatic decrease in the heating  bill.   When they go, it is usually a
pin-hole  leak  for a long time (sometimes many  months)  into  the  fiberglass
insulation before you see anything on the floor.   That will, of course, negate
any  insulating factors from the fiberglass.  By wrapping it  with  a  blanket,
you, in effect, replaced the original insulation.

I  got  the same kind of decrease in my heating bill after I replaced one  that
had  been  leaking  for a while - there must have been five gallons of water in
the fiberglass insulation.  Unfortunately, you  never  seem to see the increase
in heating bill at once so that  you  could  jump  to  the  conclusion that the
heater was leaking.  I did not wrap the new heater.

Dave

    re:  .2  
    
    The water heater was in the basement which isn't heated.  The
    insulation was 4 inches.  I tried to buy a blanket during the energy
    crisis a number of years ago, but they didn't make one for a 80
    gallon water heater.  The hardware store advised wrapping and taping
    it with regular fiberglas (4") insulation.  After wrapping it I
    touched the side it the tank between the insulation and the tank
    was hot!  Shows how much heat is lost.  

    re: .1           
    
    The answer sounds like trapping moisture and corroding the tank
    from the outside in.  I can't help believe that more insulation
    wouldn't help.  Even though they are better insulated and supposedly
    more efficient (straight electric resistance heat doesn't get more
    efficient by itself), more insulation has got to improve the
    efficiency.  
    
    Thanks for the explanation.  Since there is a life time warranty
    on the tank, I've got to decide whether the savings is worth the
    hassle of calling Sears and replacing my water tank versus the savings
    in electricity.  
    
    Thanks for the help.
    
    Dave

Don't ask me to do the calculations but I remember from heat transfer 
(yech) that there is optimum thickness for insulating an object with 
internal heat generation.  You can actually increase the amount of heat 
loss by adding insulation past this point.  The effect is created by 
increasing surface area faster than increasing thickness of the insulating 
layer.  Interesting concept, however in the water heater situation I 
believe it's just a matter of cost.  You gain most from the first inches of 
insulation and less from there out.  After a while you can not justify the 
cost of the added insulation with the cost savings from less heat loss.

CRaig

    
    	I believe there is a simplier reason for the recommendation
    to not insulate the new water heaters -- unlike their earlier brethern,
    they have plenty of insulation built into them.  Your old water
    heater probably didn't have much insulation and thus lost a lot
    of heat.  This made your added insulation quite worthwhile.  The
    new heater, though, probably has enough insulation that you adding
    more won't really subtract much from your heating bills.
    
    	Try this: Put your hands on the side of your new water heater. 
    (*** WARNING ***  Don't do this to an uninsulated old water heater!
    You could burn yourself!!!)  How hot is it?  Hot?  Real warm?  Slightly
    on the warm side (like mine)?  The cooler it is, the less effective
    the added insulation will be.  I bought a hot water heater blanket
    a few weeks ago, and took it right back when I realized how little
    I'd save.
    
    							-c

    Is $70 or even $30 typical of electrically heating water? I just
    moved into a new house in N.H.  and have separate meter for hot
    water. The elec bills are running: water $35, rest of elec $36-$37.
    I thought thids was outrageous and something was wrong. My entire
    elec bills in Mass. generally ran only $45. 

    
    Sounds about right, when I moved up here from mass 3 years again
    my hot water bill was running $45 - $60 a month. At that time my
    two kids were 3 and 1 and if you have kids you know the amount of
    laundry that has to be done.  Since then I've install oil FHW heat
    and attached a hot water tank to the furnance.
    
    	Don
    

    Alas, electric hot water, like electric baseboard, is not cheap.
    If you look at those "estimated yearly costs" they paste on the
    side of new water heaters, you will see the electric ones are
    higher than the gas ones.
    
    Although the "mark up" seems to be much less than for electric central
    heat.

    
    With a separate meter, a 30-gallon tank, and two kids, we've been
    running $30-$35 monthly for our water heater.  This is with PSNH,
    and there's a $5/month charge for the separate meter not included
    in the $30-35.
    
     - John

When I had the local utility do an energy audit in my house, they suggested
replacing my Electric Hot Water with gas...payback was about 18 months.

Bob

P.S.  Water heater was brand new (1987)...

    
    	Has anyone had an experience with those high efficiency ( about
    	90%) tankless hot water heating systems? I recall a "This Old
    	House" episode where one of these systems was installed into
    	a cape being renovated somewhere here in MA, and they actually
    	used some sort of a PVC duct to vent the gasses. I believe that
    	the unit that was installed was natural gas powered. I have
    	electric hot water now, and FHA heat, and the prospect of many
    	years of high water heating bills is not exciting. I recall
    	a rating of these heaters in Consumer Reports and it seemed
    	that the price was fairly high. Any comments appreciated.
    
    /Kevin

    WE HAVE USED A UNIT WE BOUGHT AT SUMMERVILLE LUMBER FOR FOUR YEARS,
    AND NO PROBLEMS TO DATE OTHER THAN THE EMERGENCY RELIEF VALVE FAILED
    AND HAD TO BE REPLACED.  ORIGINAL COST 400.00 PLUS 100.00 FOR
    INSTALLATION, GAS AND WATER PIPES HAD TO BE MOVED.  OURS IS NATURAL
    GAS BUT I UNDERSTAND THAT PROPANE AND ELECTICAL IS AVAILABLE.  AS
    TO SAVING MONEY WE WERE PAYING 33.OO A MONTH FOR HOT WATER, WE ADDED
    A GAS STOVE AT THE SAME TIME AND ARE NOW PAYING 13.00 A MONTH AVERAGE'
    DURING THE NONE HEATING SEASON.  THE ONLY THING I WOULD SUGGEST IS
    THE FLOW VOLLUME WE GET IS THREE GALLONS A MINUTE AT 155 DEGREES,
    YOU MIGHT LOOK FOR A LARGE VOLUME. THERE IS ALSO A LONG DISCUSSION
    OF THIS AT ANOTHER LOCATION.

    Hi!  Last year I put in a propane gas "tankless hot water heater".
     I got the idea from the same episode of This old house.  We previously
    had electric hot water.  Finally replaced with tankless because of
    the high cost and poor (very, very, very poor) recovery of the 80
    gallon tank.
             
    Any way, let me tell you how it's going.  When you use any one
    appliance (dishwasher, shower, sink) all is fine.  You get enough
    water to drown.  Some problems with two or more.
    
    I mentioned this to the prople who installed ours and they said
    this was normal.  They did say that one possibility could be a small
    gas fired tank installed which could be set at a very low temp.
     The tank system would ac like some sort of "pre heater".
     
    Btw, my son went off to college this fall, so there is no longer
    two showers going at once.
    
    ps, units can either connecter to a chimney or others don't.                             

    I have noticed that alot of you yankees are talking about a second
    meter for your electric water heater.  Here in the south instead
    of paying the electric company for the extra service, we purchase
    a device called LITTLE GRAY BOX.  It is a timer you put on the incoming
    power to the water heater.  You set it and it turns off and on the
    power to the water heater just like the little timer units for your
    lamps.  It costs about $30-35 dollars.  You set it to come on 1
    hour before your need for showers in the morning and off until 1
    hour before you need to do the evening dishes.  There is usually
    an override switch for when you have guests and want to have hot
    water all the time.  The savings in the electric bill by heating
    water only when you need it usually pays for itself in 2-3 months.
    The $5 mentioned earlier for the additional service would pay for
    it in 7 months without the savings of electric.  Either way it should
    pay for itself in less 1 year.  Check at your local electric warehouse
    outlet or your ever favorite SPAG'S.  (Don't ya'll have Home Depot
    or Builders Square??? ;^)
    
    Bruce Ramsey (looking for similar gadget so I dont have to run my
    piolt light all the time.)
  

    I have a Mor-Flo 66 gal electric water heater.  I'm not sure how
    old it is (bought the house last year) but it has no leaks.  The
    problem is that I run out of hot water in, what I feel is, a very
    short amount of time.  And the time seems to vary.  The other night
    all I did was a load of laudry and dishes and had no hot water left
    for the kids bath.  I would think that a  66 gal heater would go
    a lot further than that. 
    
    I have Ohmed out the elements and they both came in at 22-24 Ohms.
     From reading some other replies, this seems to be too high.  Should
    I replace the elements before trying anything else?  I have tried
    flushing and that did very little to change the amount of hot water.
    
    BTW  Hen I first moved in I turned the temp down to 120.  The previous
    owner had it up at 160.  Could this be a sign?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Serv G.

    Re: .20
    
    If you're trying to mix 120 degree water with cold to get a reasonable
    bath it's going to take a lot more to get something 80 to 100 degrees
    to fill a tub. Cheapest test would be to start moving the tank
    temperature upward and see if it helps. I'll bet it will. Most of the
    advice I've seen has been to turn the tank down from 180 TO 160.

    Tank temp has nothing to do with the volume of hot water produced.
    If a 66 gal tank goes cold after that little usage, something else
    is wrong.  (Yes you can raise the temperature on the theory that
    you'll mix in less hot with the cold and it will last longer, but
    that doesn't solve what appears to be a malfunction in the tank).
    
    Your resistance seems high, although it's curious that both elements
    read the same.   At 22 ohms, you have a cold element draw of only
    10 amps, which is 2200 watts (i.e. not much) - and consider that
    the resistance of heating elements when cold is much LOWER than
    the steady-state resistance after power is applied.  

    What does the plate on the heater show for power requirements or
    current draw?
        
    Check the wiring inside the heater between the elements, thermostat,
    and junction box.   If that's ok, I'd replace the elements.
    

    I checked the wiring in the tank.  It did not match the diagram
    inside the cover, so I changed it.  After changing it the situation
    worsened, I ran out sooner and was not recovering.  I put the wires
    back where they were and got back to where I started.  I have raised
    the temp to 145 and this has given me a little more time before running
    out but it still seems to go too quickly.  
    
    The wiring plan used connects the bottom element directly to a lead
    from the top element instead of from the incoming lead.  I tested
    the voltage with it wired both ways and the voltage was the same
    on both legs of the element while it was on.
    
    HELP!
    

    Another possibility is that you have corrosion buildup high enough
    that one element isn't properly submerged in water or is insulated
    from it.
    
    Eric

    Is the solution to replace the elements?
    
    I have already flushed the tank.
    
    
    Serv

    If the crud buildup is bad enough, flushing may not get rid of it,
    but if you use something strong enough to break up the crud and
    rust, you may discover that rust was sealing many/many little holes
    in the heater and now you've got leaks. Not being extremely well
    versed on water heaters (others here would probably know better),
    you probably could drain the water heater down, remove the element,
    and see the condition of the interior.
    
    Eric
    

    
    RE: .23 (wiring change)
    
    The instructions for my water heater list 6-7 different ways the
    thing can be wired (simultaneous operation, non-simultaneous, non-peak
    meter, etc...)  So I think you'd definitely want to keep it the
    way it was.
    
    Some things you might want to check are:
    
    1. Fuse/breaker - Is one blown?  Are they functioning correctly?
    2. If you have a seperate panel with a throw switch for the heater,
       is it old.  I've had trouble with mine slipping out of contact
       on occassion.
    3. Good connections.
    
    Who makes it?  I called the manufacturer of my unit (A.O. Smith)
    for information and they were great.  They sent out a fact sheet
    and told me exactly how old it was (It came with the house).  Yours
    might still be on warrenty.  Mine was warrenteed for 10 years. 
    You never know...
    
    Phil

    re .20
    
    I had the exact same problem with my (coincidentaly) 66 gal electric.
    The thermostat was up high when I moved into the house and I still ran
    out of hot water with only 2 users. After several months it stopped
    producing at all. Seems that the heater was chugging along on only one
    element for some time - the clue was the long recovery time. 

    I had a plumber come in and replace the elements. $ 75 and I was back
    in more hot water than I ever needed. 
    
    You can do it yourself: You'll need a pump to drain the system (unless
    you have a low drain available and lots of time) an extra deep, extra
    large socket for the element removal, and the elements. I figured it
    was worth the $ to have it done in an hour with no work on my part.
    If you're in the Acton area and interested I'll post his name/number. 
        

                            -< it was the elements >-

        I think you  have spent a lot of time checking it out and usually
        (experience is talking) if the  problem  isn't jumping out at you
        its the elements.  Elements are fairly delicate.  

        Keep in mind that only one  element  is  on  at a time.  When the
        element is on the volts across the  two  connections of it should
        read 220 else 0.  

        If your tank is full of cold water  the  top element should be on
        till it heats the top up to temp and then the bottom element will
        come on.  As you start using the water, after the elements are off
        and the water is up to  temp,  the  top element should come soon.
        Check for a 220 volt drop across  each when it is on.  If no drop
        then replace it.  If the elements are old enough, for the cost of
        about  $8  - $10 at a plumbers supply, it  might  be  worth  just
        replacing them.  

        My $8 - $10 worth is that your bottom element is broke!        

                    

    The elements are labeled "2000 watts".  I have not been able to
    find 2000 watt elements.  Can I use a higher wattage?
    
    Serv

    After two years, I'm re-kindling this topic, and taking it down a
    slightly different path (at Paul's (the moderator) request). 

    We have a oil FHW system w/ tankless hot water; and we have a problem of
    insufficient, i.e., lack of, hot water.  Btw, this is a new house --
    about 1-1/2 years old (but we've only been in it for ~9 mos). 

    When we first moved in last March, the hot water seemed okay -- though
    it wasn't as hot (nor as high pressure) as our previous house which had
    a 60-gal elec. h/w heater.  Back during the summer this problem became
    more evident, but mostly only when washing dishes [by hand]; showers
    weren't really a problem as we mostly took cool-cold showers. :-) Now,
    it has become a significant problem in both respects.  In order for us
    to take a reasonably warm shower (note, *hot* [by my standards] is not
    achievable) we must turn on the heat for both heat zones (typically we
    don't use second-floor heat).  However, even doing this does not 
    guarantee sufficient 'hot water' for shower or doing dishes -- we'll get 
    a short burst of hot water, but then it quickly cools off to an
    unacceptable level.  Btw, my wife has tested the tap water with a
    cooking thermometer; and though I can't remember the exact reading she
    got, I do know it was well below the aquastat temperature setting.

    In line with this, I had our burner service technician check out the
    system; and asked him for advice on the best aquastat settings. Yet, his
    suggestions didn't provide any noticeable improvement.  Note, the burner
    serviceman and a plumber (who had briefly looked at the heating system
    while doing a plumbing job) both commented that the boiler is a
    bottom-of-the-line make -- TEKTON Nova (ever heard of it?) -- which they
    both estimate is capable of generating only about 3 gpm of hot water at
    best.  The plumber suggested we look into an add-on h/w storage/booster
    tank.  Yet, considering this is a new house (system), this doesn't
    reasonable to me at this point. 

    Presently I have the aquastat HI/LO set at max -- 240/220, respectively,
    and DIFF at 10.  When I first changed the settings to this [a week or so
    ago] it seemed to help; but only initially.  Having read the
    explanations about aquastat settings (note 2531.*), I'd like to clariy
    how that pertains to my situation, i.e., how these settings actually
    effect hot water... should I set LO to about 160?, lower?, higher (than
    60)?  Btw, I've previously tried different settings to no avail; though
    I may not have used the best combination of the three. 

    Or, is it possible an internal mechanism responsible for detecting the 
    water temperature(s), e.g., thermostat or some other similar gizmo,
    (assuming there is one) could be malfunctioning and needs adjustment or
    even replacement? 

    Btw, under provisions of our Homeowner's warranty we've tried contacting
    the builder about this problem; but apparently, he has gone bankrupt and
    may be out of business (he hasn't responded to a letter nor phone
    calls).  Also, he never provided us with any onwer's documentation (e.g., 
    spec's) about the heating system, though we requested it several times.  
    Does anyone know of a TEKTON boiler dealer or other source of such info 
    about this make?  

    Thanks in advance for any help on this -- it will be greatly appreciated. 

    -don

    This is a reply to my problem which Mike Taylor sent me via Mail.

==============================================================================
From:	SALEM::M_TAYLOR "Mike, In-DEC F/S 261-3707 or 2176  04-Jan-1989 0710"  4-JAN-1989 07:56:38.10
To:	CADSE::GILCHREST
Subj:	lack of hot water

Hello. Since your note is write-locked, I'll respond directly to you. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You should change your settings on your aquastat to:

Hi:	220
Lo:	160-170
Diff:	15

Having your stat set to 220/240/10 can result in a "chase loop" where the 
boiler is unable to run at all!

The 'stat is not your problem, though... If you are seeing realistic 
temperatures in the boiler, such as something close to your 'stat setting, 
then the stat is resonably functional and the temp of your boiler is not at 
fault. You should have a thermometer/altitude indicator combination mounted 
in the boiler. If not, just *lightly* touch the pipe which exits the boiler 
towards the expansion tank. If this pipe is very hot, that is correct. 

I would have to guess that your boiler has a hot water 
temperature-regulating device installed in the domestic hot water line which 
is bypassing the actual tankless heating unit in your boiler. What this 
device actually does is :	It attempts to supply you with a constant 
temperature of water independant of boiler temperature, but never higher 
than the boiler temp. 

The way this device works is:	It installs in your last piece of pipe 
leading from your tankless heater and has a thermostatically-sensitive valve 
inside which acts to allow cold water to mix with the hot water derived from 
your tankless coil to produce a constant temp output. 


		| ^ |
		| | |
		|   |
		| H |
		| O |
		| T |
		|   |
		| O | _____ <----------- TEMPERATURE SETTING KNOB
		| U |   |
		| T |-------|
		|	    |
		|	    |
		|     	    |
		|	    |
		| F       C |
		| R	  O |
		| O	  L |
		| M |---| D |
		|   |   |   |
		| B |   | I |
		| O |   | N |
		| I |   |   |
		| L |   | ^ |
		| E |   | | |
		| R |   |   |
		|   |
		| C |
		| O |
 		| I |
		| L |
		|   |
		| ^ |
		| | |
		|   |



This drawing illustrates the valve I'm referring to. With the direction of 
the manual temp selector knob, you pick the desired temp. The valve is 
usually calibrated from 100-180.  

If you do not have this valve, all hope is not lost! This is the $10 
more-expensive method of controlling hot water temp. Cheapest way around is 
by placing a valve directly across the tankless coil inlet and outlet pipes. 
I won't draw this. Simply, this valve will allow cold water to flow *around* 
the coil (bypassing it partially) and it is not capable of temperature 
regulation, just a constant offset of the boiler's setting. This is not 
optimal, but just livable--you can manage with this setup. 

In this situation, the valve is opened to allow more cold across the coil, 
resulting in cooler output to the plumbing. Closing this valve a little will  
boost the water temp to the house. This is also how the valve illustrated 
above works; however, it is automatic and when in good condition, performs 
accurately. The manual valve always allows the same volume of bypass, so the 
output to the house will be variable. 

You should be able to find this information out, and, given the info above, 
resolve your issue. Don't buy anything from the contractors yet!!!

One thing you don't mention (or I don't remember) is what kind of pressure 
is available at the hot water tap: If it's comparable to the cold, then you 
definitely have a incorrect valve line-up. If it is a trickle, then there is 
a supply problem, which would be a partially closed valve in the cold fresh 
water line to the boiler, usually found *at* the boiler. This valve should 
always be wide open. Alas, if that valve was almost closed, you'd still have 
*HOT* water, just not much of it pressure-wise. 

Experiment around, and get back to me; I'd like to know what was wrong.

As far as the boiler temps: You needn't keep the setting for the hi-limit 
much above 200... It just wastes fuel. 

Mike Taylor

This is Don's mail reply to me, with my answers included in **** area.

Anyway, I change my aquastat settings to those you suggested, but to no 
avail.  Last night, my wife did the dishes and we both took showers, yet we 
still only had luke-warm water; worse than previous (higher) settings .  The
water will get reasonably warm for about 10-15 seconds and that's it.  Btw,
we do have a mixture valve (I had neglected to mention that in my original
note); it's calibrated from 120-160 degrees.  We've tried setting this at
various stages -- completely counter-clockwise (160), in the middle (as
recommended by burner guy), and completely clockwise (at lowest level), in
case it was somehow installed backwards.  But, like before, no noticeable
difference.  Btw, my wife said the highest temperature reading she ever got
when measuring the kitchen hot-water tap was about 90-degress, though we've
had short bursts of temp's that I;d guess are about 120. 

Also, you mentioned having a thermometer/altitude indicator combination
mounted in the boiler... is this inside the boiler, or is it external, i.e.,
viewable without taking any cover off?  Beause if so, then we don't have
one.

*********
!!!Ans.:	I've never seen a boiler for FHW without one!
*********

However, we both checked the pipes as you suggested... the two pipes
coming out of the boiler -- one to domestic hot water other to the expansion
tank -- were hot; however, the domestic pipe after the mixture valve was 
just barely warm.  Does this imply a problem at the mixture valve?


**********
!!!Ans: Yes, the "tempering valve" must be either defective or installed
	improperly. Judging by the age of your house, if you don't have hard
	water, the valve may be installed wrong, as opposed to defective.
***********       
    
Lastly, you made a couple comments about the water pressure; however, I'm a 
bit confused by what you said.

>>> if pressure at the hot water tap is comparable to the cold, then you 
>>> definitely have an incorrect valve line-up. 

The water pressure _is_ comparable to the cold water pressure.  So where
would this incorrect valve line-up most likely occur?

*******
!! Ans.:	This would be true *if* you had a manual bypass temperature
     		mixing valve; since you don't, just disregard that.
*******    
    
							Also, what is the
appropriate hot-water pressure -- more than a trickle but less than cold?
but how much less?
*******
Ans.:		Not really much that you should be able to tell, with
		a tempering valve installed. 
*******    

Also, I don't know if this indicates anything, our
laundry hookup is downstairs adjacent to the kitchen.  When we set the
washing machine temp. to <H>ot the water comes in as only a trickle, though
I don't recall ever feeling it to see how hot it is.  Set at <W>arm, it
comes in at a good flow but is only luke-warm at best.  Next time I do a
load of wash (hopefully tonight ;^} ) I'll check the "H" temp. by hand. 

Unfortunately, guess it looks like I'll need to call in a heating contractor 
myself since I can't reach the builder.  We'd also tried to find out from
him to who did the heating system and/or plumbing, but he wouldn't tell us. 
We wouldn't be surprised if he did himself; he's cheaper than the average
builder. Matter of fact, the burner serviceman is suspicious because he said
the boiler should have a metal tag attached showing the spec's (e.g., max.
burn rate); yet all that is on ours is a small computer-printout label stuck
on top of the burner, not the boiler. 

Well, again, thanks much for your help.  When(if) I get this problem 
resolved I'll let you know the outcome, i.e., what the problem was.

    
    Presuming  that  your  problem  is  not a temperature control valve,  I
    suggest you see 1195.2, if you have not already.  I am still using this
    method,  and  have  recently reduced the burner nozzle size from .85 to
    .75 gal/hour.  I am still getting lots of hot water.  According  to the
    thermometer on the  furnace (a 1957 American Standard) the boiler water
    never goes over 190, and I get adequate hot water for a shower when the
    boiler reaches 160.  (I  have it on a timer which shuts the system down
    at night)
    
    Good luck,
    
    gjd

    Well, I finally got around to replacing the relief valve, with one that
    has an identical rating.  Now it leaks more than before - a gallon a
    day or more.  The highest rate is when a lot of hot water is being
    used.
    
    The instructions with the valve say that "slow leaks" are due to 
    "thermal expansion" in the tank.  What does this mean?  These valves
    aren't SUPPOSED to drip constantly, and mine didn't before a few
    months ago.  I have the temperature setting rather low - about 120
    degrees.
    
    Can someone offer advice?  I'm getting fed up with puddles of water
    on my basement floor!
    
    				Steve

                Those regulating/mixing valves are notoriously fickle
        things. One might last you for years, and its replacement (they
        always die eventually!) might only last for one year. Both my
        system and a friend of mines system have the same setup. I'm one
        my third valve in 12 years, and he's one his fourth or fifth in
        about 8 years. Some have a cartridge that can be replaced
        cheaply (that's the kind he has now), others require replacing
        the entire unit. I would highly reccomend replacing that valve
        before embarking on a much more expensive proposition.
                
                Now - some potential bad news. If your boiler is old,
        the coil in the boiler could be clogged enough to overly
        restrict the available flow of hot water to a level that is too
        small to be any good. This is an expensive proposition to fix.
                
                Hoping it's only first
                
                /s/     Bob

    I was away for the weekend and arrived home to find that I didn't have
    any hot water.  I have a 10yr old gas hot water heater and the pilot was 
    out. I noticed that there was a small slightly damp spot (about 1 inch in
    diameter) under the outlet used for draining the heater. 
    I successfuly relit the pilot and then turned the heater to ON to start 
    the water heater. It was going fine until after 10 minutes it cycled off
    and then the pilot went out too.  I wasn't able to relight the pilot
    until an hour later and then the same thing happened.  The damp spot 
    has dried up but the outlet is still slightly moist inside (as if a very 
    slow leak)    A new development is that now when I'm able to get the
    heater to fireup ( It's been several hours since the first time
    I tried to get it going) I hear a sound as though water is dripping on
    the hot element (this was not the case the first several times I tried
    to get it going...perhaps condensation?) When I look at the underside
    of the tank itself, I don't notice any water or dampness and there is 
    no water or dampness under the heater itself.
    
    As the heater is 10 years old so I'm thinking that it may just need to
    be replaced.  I'm just confused why the outlet valve leak coincided
    with the heater no longer working  (it never leaked before) but
    that I don't see any leaking under the heater. 
    
    Is there anyway to be sure the heater needs to be replaced (without
    calling a plumber and paying him $$ to say "need a new one" :-)
    Any ideas or opinions are greatly appreciated. (The ice cold shower
    in the dead of winter is not going to be fun tomorrow morn)
    
    thanks in advance.

    Steve,
    
    "thermal expansion" is taking place whenever water is heated. An
    expansion tank installed anywhere in the hot water piping will curb
    this leaking if it is truly being caused by expansion. However,
    I cannot see a gallon of expansion per day being anywhere near normal.
    
    Do you have any idea what your pressure might be? If your system
    pressure is sufficiently high, your relief valve may be overloaded
    and could be averting an explosion.
    
    The expansion tank which I speak of is nearly identical to the type
    used in FHW heating systems. It is the same size, but is geared
    to a higher working pressure. I installed one once to deal with
    a water hammer problem caused by 90 PSI water feed from the street
    which was 370 feet from the house. Whenever a valve was closed
    abruptly, the pipes would slam, dangerously loud. The expansion
    tank solved that by absorbing the momentum of the 1"X370' column
    of water and holding it.
    
    Mike

Sounds like a couple of problems.  

First,  the   not_staying_on  problem.    It  sounds  like  you  might  have  a
thermocouple problem.  A replacement  is  only  about  $4.00.  The symptoms you
describe are USUALLY the result of an ageing  thermocouple,  however  they  can
also be the the result of not having the  thermocouple  located  far  enough up
into the pilot flame.

What  happens  is  that  everything is OK until 1) it is a COLD morning causing
many users to operate their gas valves in a short time thereby dropping the gas
line pressure coming into your house.  and 2) YOUR gas  valve  turns on.  Then,
the pressure coming in your house is not enough to keep the  flame  high enough
to keep the thermocouple hot enough to keep the pilot on.  This  can  happen on
new  thermocouples, so carefully follow the instructions on the back of the new
thermocouple container.

Second, the damp spot.  The drain taps on heaters are just as likely to drip as
on any other tap.  However,  if  the cellar is warm and the water in the heater
is very cold, you can actually have  condensation dripping off the tap.  See if
the problem persists after the tank heats up.

Third, the dripping noise inside.  Again, see if  it  persists  after  the tank
warms up and runs for a couple of days.   It could be simple condensation,;  it
could also be a leak (not uncommon in a ten year old heater).

Replacement of heater.  There are some sure  symptoms  of  a failed heater, but
the lack of those symptoms does not necessarily mean that everything is ok.  If
the outside of the tank feels hot, it is likely that a small leak has developed
and the hot water is filling up the space where the  fiberglass  insulation is.
More symptoms are;  running out of hot water more often that normal, higher gas
bill, constant dripping and popping noises from inside.

Of  course,  the  tank  could  rupture  all  at once.  However, since they  are
SUPPOSED to be installed near a drain (read the instructions on the tag on your
relief valve :-) ), that should only be a minor inconvenience.  

Light humor, there, I have  seldom  seen  a  hot  water heater installed near a
drain.  However, since I went  through  a rapid rupture and spent a lot of time
cleaning up, I made sure that the replacement heater had a drain near by.

When I have gas appliace problems, I do a quick look over  myself.  If I cannot
see "what's up" or I don't think I can fix it in a timely manner, I call in the
Gas  Company.  I have found them fair, honest and as often as not,  willing  to
recommend  AGAINST  a  new purchase when it is not required.  I have dealt with
Gas Companies in Saugus and Lowell Mass and in Nashua N.H.

I, too HATE cold showers.    

Dave

    I believe I've said this before.  If you are having troubles with
    a lack of hot water in a tankless system, you should have a water
    saver shower head.  The simple $9.99 one gives a great shower, and
    allows the hot water to keep up with your shower.  They make these
    for sinks now, too, for doing dishes manually or with a portable
    dishwasher.
    
    Elaine

    
      Most likely your problem is a bad thermocouple. It senses the
    heat from the pilot and tells the gas valve that everything is ok.
    An easy check of the thermocouple is; turn the gas valve to pilot.
    Light the pilot (normally by holding the knob down, this bypasses
    the saftey of the thermocouple). If the pilot lights ok, but goes
    out after you release the knob (hold it ~30 sec to allow the
    thermocouple to warm up), then the thermocouple is probably bad.
    
      The sound like dripping and hissing of water after you had lit
    the burner is NORMAL for a gas water heater and NOT a leak. When
    gas burns it gives off a LOT of water vapor. When your water tank
    is fairly cool (like when you first light a cold tank), this vapor
    condenses on the inside of the tank's flue and may drip onto the
    burner. This sound will go away as the tank warms up (may take 1/2HR+)
    
      The drain valve may be leaking slightly just because it has
    contracted slightly after cooling off.
    
    					Kenny

	re: .22 & .24

	You're insights were correct -- the problem fortunately was only a
	faulty mixing valve.  Since I'm not really a handy-man, Friday I
	broke down and called a heating contractor to look into this and
	another heating-system problem.  Luckily, he came that afternoon. 
	He determined the problem was due to the mixing valve... again 
	fortunately, it's the kind that has a replaceable cartridge.  So, 
	he simply removed the cartridge and re-attached the valve [cover].  

	I'd forgotten what real hot water feels like. :-)  Thanks for all 
	your advice.  Btw, I learned quite a bit about heating systems as a
	result of this problem and consequently reading this Notes file... 
	it's great having this resource so readily available.

	Happy DIY'ing,

	-don

    I don't know what my water pressure is, but it does not seem
    unreasonably high nor does it seem to have increased over the past
    few months.  I'll call the water company and see if they have
    a suggestion.
    
    Installing an expansion tank is, I suppose, an option, but not one
    I'm looking forward to!
    
    			Steve

    I am trying to determine the best replacement for my electric
    water heater which is costing lots of $$$ to run and does not
    produce enough hot water.
    
    It is approx. 80 gallons with 2 heating elements, one element
    is on 24 hours, the other runs off peak at nite thru the morning.
    Both are set at 125 degrees.  My electric bills are running from
    $60 to $85 per month, higher in the winter probably becuase of
    the furnace running (oil FHA).  The tank was wrapped by MASS
    electric this past summer.
    
    I really think this tank is to big, we moved into our 25 year
    old, 4 bedroom cape, about a year ago.  We have two bathrooms
    which = 2 showers, and of course a washer and dishwasher.
    We are a family of four.  I have no idea how old the tank is
    but it looks very old.
    
    Anyway, I have a few questions, all of which I know have been
    discussed in other topics.  I read them all, and would like
    some fresh discussions on the different related issues...
    
    Questions...
    
    1.  What is your water heater tank size, house size, family
        size, do you have enough hot water?
    
    2.  What is your electric bill running?
    
    3.  What is your tempature settings on the tank?  Does the
    	tank run 24 hours/day? off peak?	
        
    4.  Anyone know how many gallons of water are used for showers
        washers, dishwashers?
    
    5.  Has anyone bought a new water heater recently?  What brand
        price, and from where purchased?
    
    6.  Can you still rent tanks from MASS Electric?  Is it worth
        doing?
    
    7.  Is it illegal to replace your own tank in Mass?
    
    Thanks, Mark.                      
    

    Well I finally got a hold of MASS Electric and asked about renting...
    
    They only rent 80 and 100 gallon units.
    
    the 80 cost 5.25 plus tax = $5.51/month = $66.12/year
    there is a $40 delivery charge (I'd like to own that delivery company!)
    the lease says you have to have a plumber and electrician install
    it!
    the brand is SEPCO.
    
    Does not seem like that great a deal to me right now.
    
    Mark

    I used to rent a 52 gallon tank from Fitchburg Gas & Electric
    for about $7.50/month.
    A plumber and electrician had to install it then they had to 
    inspect the installation.
    Don't remember any delivery charge.

    I did it because I was building a house at the time and couldn't
    afford to buy one.
    
    I wouldn't rent one again.
    

	Do you have a gas line running to the house?  (Perhaps not, you listed
your heat as Oil...)  If not, it might be worth contacting the gas company to
see what it would cost you to get hooked up.  Gas water heaters are much, much
cheaper to operate than are electric heaters.  If you don't mind some hassle of
changing, it might be worth it in the long run.

	As to the tank size question -- just about any place that sells water
heaters should be able to help you with this one.  When I had to replace my
heater last winter, I went to Sears and they had a chart showing how to
determine what tank size is appropriate.  The chart considers the number of
people in the family, number of bathrooms, clothes washer, dishwasher, etc., 
etc., plus the very important "recovery time" for the different types of
water heaters.  ("Recovery time" is a measure of how many gallons per hour
this heater can heat.  The slower the recovery time, the larger a tank you'll
need so you always have enough hot water.  From the sounds of it, you have a
very large tank, but with a horrible recovery time factor if one element is
always on.)  Looking at our uses (2 adults, 1 infant (+1 in the future?),
1 shower and a heavy-duty clothes washer), we ended up getting the 40 gallon
high-efficiency gas heater.  (The 40 gallon high-efficiency electric heater
would have also worked.  I already had gas lines, so we took that option.)
Haven't run out of hot water yet even on those weekends when the grandparents
are up visiting the newborn and the mornings are practically one continual
shower.

								-c

Hmmm.  we currently rent a heater from MAss Electric and the cost is
only $4.00 + .20 tax per month.  I don't think it is as large as
a 80 gal., though i could be wrong.  I had thought about buying one
and saving on the rental as this was left from the previous owners, 
but i haven't decided, yet.

-jim-

    RE .4
    
    	The tank and cost may be different than what is now available,
    based on the variety and prices at the time it was originally leased.
                                                     
    If you are happy with its performance, I would keep it.  $4.20/month
    doesn't seem so bad considering the last owner paid all the upfront
    charges for delivery and installation.
    
    Mark

     If i were you i would try to get away from electric water heating
     as .3 suggested. why not look into an oil fired  heater. i have
     one that is 42 gal. and it supplies a family of 5 with all the
     hot water we've ever needed. i've taken showers while the washer
     or the dishwasher were running at the same time. the one i have
     is on its own zone, so when the heater calls for it the furnace
     fires and hot water (from the furnace) circulates thru the hot
     water heater. the tank and extra piping on a new instlation run
     about $500 but this may go up depending on what your setup is.
     My electric bills have not gone over $43 per month but this may
     not be relative, the house is in Princeton. 

If the "off-peak" heating element is billed at a lower rate than the 24-hour
element, something you can do now to save a little money is set the thermostat
of the "24-hour" element to a slightly lower temperature than the "off-peak"
element.  This way, while "off-peak" power is available, only "off-peak"
power is used to keep the tank warm (the other thermostat sees the tank is
already warm enough and the "24-hour" element stays off)

-Mike

    
    Another alternative is propane. Some propane companys run specials
    where they give you a break on the water heater and no installation
    charge. If you don't mind having a propane tank in your yard and
    you don't have any nat.gas lines handy propane is very economical to
    run and plenty of hot water. I'd stay away from electric water heater
    at all cost...
    
    Bob
    .

    RE. 7
    
    I agree with .7, a friend of mine in Syracuse NY just bought a very
    large hot water tank, heats it at the night rate.  You might try
    increasing the temp on the night rate and/or decreasing the temp
    on the 24hr.  This would only be beneficial if you have a night
    rate meter and if your hot water usage durring the day doesn't 
    overly deplete your hot water storage capacity.  You also might
    try running the dishwasher durring the night rate period, and perhaps
    some clothes washings...
    
    George

    O.K.  let me see if I can respond to most of the suggestions...
    
    I am pretty sure there is no gas line on the street.  Although there
    is a gas line about 7 houses up the street.  I should look into
    this.  If there is gas in front of my house I am going to be really
    mad at myself becuase I had a new oil FHA furnace system installed
    last winter for $2000, and if the gas is out there I saw some ads
    where the gas company would put in a new furnace for FREE and allow
    you to rent it.
    
    AS far as propane, my wife won't even let me keep the gas grill
    near the house, never mind a propane tank, and then there is the
    house in Auburn that just blew up from a propane tank.
    
    As far as an oil fired hot water tank, I believe these are common
    if you have a oil FHW heating system.  I have oil FHA and am not
    sure of the feasibility on doing that with FHA.  Aside from that
    I WISH I had FHW instead of FHA, I hate FHA.
    
    I will try turning up the off peak element a bit.  Off peak runs
    from about 11:00 pm to 7:00 am.  The whole house swithces to off
    peak during that time.  One big problem we have is not enough hot
    water after dinner to run the dishwasher.  The dishwasher gets
    filled up at nite and is run in the morning.  My wife is home all
    day and does a lot of laundry washing during the day, WARM wash,
    COLD rinse.
    
    This morning there did not seem to be a problem with hot water.
    I did install an efficient shower head last nite.  The old one
    was like a water canon.  
    
    Thanks so far for all the input.
    
    Mark

	Lets talk about your current tank a bit more.  I'm very suprised that
an 80 gallon tank is running out of hot water so quickly.  Do you know what
the "recovery rate" is?  (My tank has a metal plate on it that lists the various
parameters -- recovery rate, BTUs, etc., etc.)  How old is the heater?  Is it
insulated at all?  (Either by original manufacturer or by you adding a hot
water blanket?)

	Have you ruled out the prospect that there is something wrong with
the lines someplace?  I can't imagine a tank being designed where one of its
elements had to be on 24 hours a day to keep the water less than totally hot.
I'm wondering if there is a leak someplace in the hot water lines that is
continually forcing cold water into the water heater.  I don't know the numbers,
but it probably wouldn't take much of a leak to have enough cold water coming
into the tank to force one element to be always on.  Aha, an idea.  What if
you were to take the reading on your water meter before going to sleep, and then
check the reading in the morning before using any toilets or sinks?  That should
demonstrate if you have a leak someplace.  (Mind you, I'm not hypothesizing on
*where* this water might be going to.  I'm conveniently ignoring the fact that
you didn't say your basement was flooded just to look at possible options.  Who
knows, there could be a small leak in a pipe right above the foundation wall and
its dribbling outside into the ground.  I don't know... ;-)  Why am I bringing
this up?  If there is a leak, replacing it with another water heater won't solve
your problem.

								-c

    re. 11
    
    I'll have to check for the metal plate.  The tank does have fiberglass
    type insulation under the outer metal sheet.  Additionally we had
    the tank wrapped by MASS WRAP this past summer.
    
    I am going to check the whole thing out tonite, make sure the
    thermostats and elements are working properly.  I'll also look
    into the water meter readings, good idea!
    
    Anyhow, I was just told today by the Gas Company that we have gas
    on the street.  I wish I had known that before I put my new oil
    furnace in last year.
    
    They said they would install a gas converter burner into my existing
    furnace, rental is $10.50 month, and install a gas water heater,
    40 gallon, rental is 6.30 month
                       ------
                        16.80 month
                   
    I might be better off buying a slightly larger gas water heater.
    ANy opinions...
    
    They said 40 gallons is the right size for a family of 4.  They
    dont have anything bigger.
    MASS Electric said 80 gallons is the right size for a family of
    4.  They dont have anything smaller.
    
    At least the gas company will install everything for FREE.  Gas
    is cheaper over the long run??? isn't it?
    My electric bill may be cut in half, with a gas water heater???
    
    If I do this it would be in the spring when they can break ground
    and install pipes.
    
    Anyone have any opinions on GAS vs OIL fuel? costs? etc?
                                             
    Mark
    

	Gas out in the street?  Great!!!

	One reason for the difference in the "40/80" gallons question might
come back to the "recovery rate" issue.  My 40 gallon gas heater, for example,
has a recovery rate of 52 gallons / hour if I remember correctly.  Even if I
were to shut off the gas to it and totally deplete the hot water, it would only
take around 50 minutes to have all 40 gallons fully hot again.  Considering
that I don't commonly shut off the gas and totally deplete it :-), the burners
starting up as I'm using the hot water means that I'd really have to use the
water *fast* to run out.

	If the electric heater has a slower recovery rate, however, you'd need
to have more of a surplus so that "normal use" doesn't wipe out the supply (i.e.
less new water being heated while the hot water is running = run out faster.)

	As odd as it seems, 80 gallons might be the right size for an electric
heater of that type while 40 gallons might be right for gas.

	Now, as to rentals...  I'd check very carefully what the "average
annual cost of operation" would be for the rented heater.  (All major appliances
now have to have a bright yellow sticker on them that gives the average costs
of running this appliance given various costs for the gas/electricity/etc.)
If you're renting it from the gas company, I'd be _real_ suprised if it was the
highest efficiency heater on the market.  Lets face it, they also want to sell
you gas!  (And, of course, the more efficient the heater is, the more expensive
it is which lowers their rate-of-return on the rental $$$s.)

	If you have the free cash, I'd suggest going to some place like Sears
and check out their entire line.  I'm a penny-pincher at heart, but after
looking at all the numbers, I decided to get their top-of-the-line GasMiser-10
(10 year warrantee).  Yes, it cost more up front, but the efficiency is high
enough that it will quickly pay for itself.  If I remember correctly, the
difference between the high and low ends in annual operating costs was in the
$75-$100 range.  The high-end heater cost me around $150-200 more which,
compared to the yearly savings, isn't a bad deal at all.  (Besides, the
warantee is also twice as long.)  Try to think if it in terms of "life cycle
costs", not just the up-front money if possible.

								-c

         re: .12

         Are you *sure* they're going to connect your house to the
         street (dig, install pipe, etc.) for free?

         Pete

    RE .14
    
    Yes, it is free IF I will be using the gas to heat as well.  For
    hot water only I would have to pay for the installation.
    
    They will go FREE up to 100' from the street pipe to the house.
    And up to 25' from the foundation to the furnace and water heater.
    Both of which are more than plenty of distance for me.  I am about
    25' from the street and the furncace and water heater is within
    5' of the foundation.
    
    Over the 100'/25' would be a charge (don't know how much).
    
    The initial reaction from my wife is negative to having gas into
    the house.  She really is worried about the safety of natural gas.
    

    re. .13
    
    another question about gas water heaters.
    
    How do they work.  Are they on a thermostat?  Can they be set not
    to run at nite and start up about an hour before you wake up?
    
    Also, what about gas burner for heating system.  Is there a pilot
    lite on all summer?
    
    Mark

    
    RE: the earlier question of electric costs & electric heaters
    
    I have a 66 gallon electric for myself and my wife. The size was
    a choice of a previous homeowner so I didn't have any input to it.
    However, we can run the dishwasher, do a load of wash, and both
    take 20 minute showers all in the same hour and never run out of
    hot water. 
    
    It cost us about $65 month for elec. About $5 of that is due to
    a waterbed and $5 more is probably due to the fact that I never
    turn a light out once I turn it on (seems like so much wasted
    effort: I know I'll just have to turn it on again someday). 
                                                                
    I also have oil/FHA. The last time I saw a comparison of oil vs. gas,
    oil came out ahead since prices are low and gas has been de-regulated
    over the last few years. However oil prices are much more volatile and
    this may change. 

    Regarding the safety of gas ... I grew up in a house with gas. The town
    had problems with the pipes, and gas was always leaking from a local
    street or yard. However, even with leaks a daily occurance, they have
    never had an accident or serious problem in the town. I think you have
    a better chance of being struck by lightning than you do of being
    in an accident with gas. 

    Just another .02 worth ...
    

	Hmmm, can gas heaters be set to not run at night?  Frankly, I don't
know.  Mine doesn't have an electric plug coming out of it, so it wouldn't
just be a matter of hooking up the thermostat plug into a timer.  Ya know,
you're getting me thinking.  I've never really thought about how they operate.
Hmmm.....  must be some kind of mechanical thermostat connected to a valve that
controls the whizmo that -- ah shucks, it gives me hot water.

	But I guess the real question is -- why would you want to turn it off
at night?  The high-efficiency ones lose such little heat, that I doubt that
I'm burning much gas keeping the water warm at night.  (Besides, with our
newborn, we're up enough in the middle of the night anyway... 8-]  For example,
a few months ago I bought a water heater blanket, took it home, started putting
it on and decided to take it back.  Why?  I realized that the side of the
water heater was actually cool to the touch, so I couldn't be losing all *that*
much heat from it!

	Besides, our summer gas bills are usually only around $15 which
includes the monthly hookup fee, etc. etc.  How much would I really save by
not having hot water in the middle of the night?

	Heating pilot light on all summer?  Yup.  I guess you could shut it
off once you know that the "heating season" is definitely over, but on a
percentage basis of even the summer gas bills, I think this ranks way down on
the list into the few-penny area.

							-c

RE the free gas hook up:

if i was you i'd take 'em up on the free gas line hook up.  the hitch is 
that you have to take their gas burner and rent it for your full heating 
uses - but they don't say for how long!  after a while call 'em back up and 
get it out (after all you'll have a perfectly good oil burner sitting there 
on the floor ;^)  ).  that leaves you with a gas line for only the most 
economical and convenient uses, like water heater and stove in particular.
i checked pretty closely on this, there is no minimum time you have to 
rent.  i was going to go for one season.  but as it turned out the gas line 
was too far for the freebie, like add $1000.

as for safety, i too grew up with natural gas; no problem.  you can shut 
off the furnace for the summer if you'd like.  it does save some and it's
easy.  i'd never considered set-backing the water heater, probably not
worth the effort. 

craig

    For your gas furnace just shut it down in the summer, altought most
    use electronic ignition, For a hot water heater check in to demand,
    at least a five gallon flow(this type is discussed at another location)
    it only is on when water is on.

    
    re .10 
    > my wife won't let me have a propane tank 
    
    Natural gas is not any more safe than propane gas. When one house
    on a street with natural gas blows up, the whole street blows up.
    As a matter of fact propane is much heavier than air and it just
    hovers along the ground/floor in white clouds so in a way it is
    safer than nat. gas. I have an oil fired FHW with tankless water
    system and I have a propane hot water sytem as a backup so I don't
    have to burn oil in the summer. It works out great..
    just another 2 cents worth
    Bob
    
    

    Ref -1
    	Propane is considered more dangerous than natural gas exactly
    for the reason you mentioned. Propane is heavier than air, natural
    gas is not. When you have a leak it stays low to the ground, just
    where the pilots are for yourwater heater and furnace. That is one
    of the main reasons that it is illegal to store your 20lb gas grill
    tank in the house. I have lived in houses with both types of fuel,
    never had a problem.
    							Chris
    
    		

    I grew up with natural gas heating and water.  No problems ever.
    
    I currently have natural gas for home heating and water.  In the
    summer with the furnance pilot lit and the water heater being used
    by two adults, our bill runs $8 month.  Is it worth turning off
    the supply to the furnance??  I might save $1 or $2 a month but
    then I have to light the pilot for the furnace in the fall.
    
    The new water heaters probably have electronic ignition and dont
    use a pilot light.  Same is probably true for heating plants.
    In that case, you would not need a set back or timer device.
    

    Gosh, this must be the Year of the Water Heater...
    
    Similar problem here. My water heater (gas) was working fine until a
    few months ago, when it (along with the rest of my house) was moved to
    a new foundation. After that,  I noticed a leak from the
    pressure-relief valve - bad enough to fill a five-gallon bucket every
    few days. The contractor had the plumber over to look at it several
    times; they checked all the fittings, fiddled with the valve to see if
    it had anything stuck in it, and finally replaced the valve completely,
    but the leak persisted.

    As a last attempt, the plumber installed a pressure regulator on the
    main water line into the house, thinking that maybe the pressure was
    too high. (Never mind that the water pressure had been that high for
    six years prior to the move with no problem at all.) Reducing the
    pressure had several side effects: the dishwasher and the toilet are
    both much quieter when filling, the pipes don't hammer as often, and
    showers are much less satisfying. But the water heater still leaks -
    more slowly, but it still leaks.

    It _seems_ to leak primarily when the burner is on; the water that
    comes out is usually cold, sometimes lukewarm. 

    From the previous notes, I'm getting the nasty feeling that the tank
    liner must have cracked, probably during the move. Question: Is this a
    dangerous problem? That is, if I'm willing to live with the leak, can I
    maintain the status quo while saving up for a new heater? Or is it
    likely to collapse at any moment?
    
    Sigh... the joys of home-ownership.
    
    thx,
    -b

    It is normal for the water in a water heater to expand quite a lot,
    especially after a lot of hot water has been used and the tank is
    mostly full of cold water.
    
    Normally, however, the expansion simply pushes water back out the inlet
    pipe.  Your pressure relief valve should be rated at a pressure
    somewhat higher than your water pressure, and therefore should hold
    back the water unless something is blocking water from returning back
    up the inlet pipe.  By any chance was there any kind of one-way or
    non-return valve installed in the water system when the house was moved
    that would prevent water from expanding back out the inlet?
    
    I don't know if pressure reducers have a provision for releasing reverse
    pressure (I know that at least some of them do not).
    
    In that case what you would have is a completely closed system with water
    trying to expand in it.  Since water can't compress, it would go the only
    place it can go, which is out the pressure relief valve on the HW
    heater.
    
    I don't  see how a cracked liner could cause the relief valve to leak. 
    I would think a cracked liner would leak just about everywhere BUT
    through the relief valve.
    
    If you have to have a pressure reducer to bring your house water
    pressure down to a reasonable level, and if the pressure reducer does
    not allow reverse flow, then I would think you would also
    need an expansion tank to allow for water heater expansion.
    
    Good hunting

    I have an expansion tank installed on the outlet side of my water
    heater to take care of just what you describe.
    
    Eric

    Re expansion tanks: Well, the plumber agrees with you, so I guess I'll
give it a try. (And I'll have a word or two with my contractor, whose plumber
should have recognized the symptoms right away!)

Oh, yeah - and a hearty "Thanks" to the Pennichuck Water folks, who neglected
to inform me when they replaced the meter that the new hookup could cause this
very problem...

-b

    
    
     My water tank decided that Friday night at 5:00 was a good time
    to let go and flood the cellar floor. It's just luck that we were
    home so we could shut the water off. My tank was 8 years old and
    the bottom just fell out. 

    re:0
    	If your bottom element was blown then you would only be heating
    the water in the top part of the tank (maybe 20 gal. if your lucky).
    Once the water comes up to temp on top, it allows the bottom element
    to come on. Hot water is pushed out of the top of the tank when
    you turn on a hot water faucet. Cold water enters the tank on the
    bottom to push out the hot. It's designed this way as heat rises
    and cold sinks (common sense). Both elements will not come on at the
    same time (on my heater anyway). The bottom element will only be
    allowed to turn on if the top is up to temp. If the bottom element 
    was blown, you'd run out of water a lot quicker than you should
    as the majority of water in the tank is heated by the bottom element.
    
    	To make a long story shorter, turn off the power to the tank and
    ohm out the elements with a multimeter. As I remember there is very
    little resistance in the element (an ohm or 2 if that). If you do
    not have continuity through an element, it's blown. They cost about
    $6-10 to for a replacement and are very easy to replace. Just turn
    off the power, turn off the water feeding the tank, drain the tank, 
    disconnect the two wires, unscrew it and put the new one in the same 
    way you took the old one out. Turn on a hot water faucet while draining
    and filling the tank. Do not turn the power back on until the tank
    fills (i.e. water running from faucet).
    
    	Another possibility is that one of the solenoids/thermostats
    is bad (the thermostat is built into the solenoid usually). You can
    tell this by turning on hot water and seeing if you have 230v across
    the bottom element. When you start running low on hot water, the
    top element should kick in and you should get 230v across that.

        To get 230v, they use 2 115v wires that are out of phase with each
    other. In simple terms, you will get 115v if you measure from one of
    these to ground and 230v between the 2 115v wires. A rough schematic
    diagram of an electric hot water heater follows.
    
                              115v     115v 
    				|        |
    				|        |
    				|        |
    				|        |
				o1	 |    
	Upper Solenoid --->     |        |
                              o o--++++--|  <---Upper element
			     3| 2        |	
			      |          |	
			      |          |	
			      |          |	
			      |          |	
			      |          |	
			      o          |
        Lower Solenoid -->    |          |
                              o---++++---    <--Lower element

    	Note: Even though the bottom solenoid is shown as closed, the
    bottom element will not have 230v across it until the top solenoid
    switches from one contact to the other (i.e. goes from contact 1
    and 2 to 1 and 3). When the bottom comes up to temp it opens the
    contact on the lower solenoid and turns off that element.
    
	WARNING: If you are at all skitish about dealing with electricity
    you may not want to do this. We are talking about a 30 amp. circuit
    here so be carefull. The water tank itself is grounded.
    
     	Ray_who's_sorry_this_got_so_long_winded
    

    
    
    Good day,
                       HOME_WORK :== BARN_WORK ?
    
    My husband and I just purchased a new home on 20 acres here
    in Colorado.  Within 30 days, we will be starting construction
    on a horse barn.  Currently we are trying to determine the
    best option for providing hot water to the wash area in the
    barn.  I looked at several of the "TANKLESS HOT WATER HEATER" 
    topics in this conference but most seemed to be on the larger
    end of the scale than what we have been looking at. 
    
    Our contractor for the barn has suggested to us a Tankless
    system that is about the size of a brief case (give or take
    a few inches).  It consists of tubing that is heated (on
    demand) as water passes through it.  We have been looking
    at several plumbing/electrical stores here in town but
    have been unable to find any substantial information on
    them.  Our biggest concern in the barn is fire so we would
    like to address the safety of this equipment.  Also, just how
    well would this work, especially during the winter?  Also
    we would appreciate any brand names if you have them as well 
    as other alternatives to this method.  We aren't going to be
    piping gas into the barn (we don't want a pilot) so what
    ever the recommendations would have to be electric.
    
    Thank you in advance for your help.
    
    Karen

    I can not give you a name but they area now offering tankless units
    for RV and campers, try an RV store.
     
    
    

If you look back under some of the notes about tankless hot water (1111.57), 
there is mention somewhere of exactly what you are looking for.  I know that a 
company called Thermar makes little electric instant-heat heaters, that are 
actually quite a bit smaller than a breifcase.  More like 9"x12"x3".  It takes 
a 40 amp 220 volt breaker all by itself (LOTS of juice!), and will heat about a 
gallon a minute.  As I remember they were about $100.  I will attempt (but 
don't count on it) to remember to get the address of the company for you.

Paul

    	Assuming that the barn is unheated, I'd want to make sure that
    a tankless unit had a minimum temp feature. Does the unit heat only
    when water is flowing thru it, or does it maintain the small amount
    of water in it at some temp.?
    	A work-around to this might be the thermostaticly controlled
    heating pipe wrap tapes that you can set for 35 deg F min.  Wrapping
    the exposed piping, [and maybe even the unit, with some insulation
    too] might be a good solution.  - Chris

    Re -1.  Thanks for the reply.  We have found by talking to
    an electrician that the electric type tankless system will
    just not do the trick.  We would have to have two or three
    of them in sequence to get the water up to a temperature
    satisfactory to us.  Most of the reason is the electric
    but also because the barn will not be insulated.  He estimated
    the water coming from the first system would be around 70 
    degrees.  This just won't do it.  
    
    The current recommendation is a tankless system that is
    propane based.  I really don't like this idea.  He suggested
    a tank outside the barn that when not in use, can be shut
    off at the main valve.  So each time we want to use the 
    heater, we turn on the main valve outside then walk inside
    the barn, keep trying to light the pilot (after all the air
    is out of the line) then turn main valve off outside 
    when done.  I just don't know.  Can we be guaranteed of
    it not leaking, especially turning it off an on all 
    the time?  All it takes is one spark from turning on
    the lights in the barn and up the place goes....  
    
    I think that with the options at hand, we will insulate the
    hell out of an area in the wash stall to hold a small tank
    electric hot water heater.  We would have to install some
    drain back system however to prevent freezing of the
    pipes running from the system as well as the water 
    internally.  If we keep it running all the time, our 
    electric bill is going to be... well... you know.  The
    floor will all be concrete so it will be about the
    best area to place this except for the fact that the 
    housing will take up room.  Maybe too much...

>    We have found by talking to
>    an electrician that the electric type tankless system will
>    just not do the trick.  We would have to have two or three
>    of them in sequence to get the water up to a temperature
>    satisfactory to us.  

I'm pretty sure that he's wrong on this.  It all depends on what flow rate you 
need.  I remember when I was looking at these, the Thermar units would raise 
.75 gallon per minute by about 80� - producing .75 gal/min of 130� water from 
50� well water.  The reason you usually need to run them in series is because 
.75 gal/min is not sufficient for a home - you need at least 2 gal/min.  If you 
run the heater at, say, 2.25 gal/min (Three times its rated full-heat
capacity), then it will only raise the temperature by 80�/3=27�, producing 
water between 70� and 80�, which is what your electrician told you.  But you 
don't need that high a flow rate, do you?  You're not going to take a shower 
out there.  If you keep the flow rate low it should be able to heat the water 
to whatever temperature you need.

You'll still need to insulate heavily and provide heat tape to keep the pipes 
from freezing, though.

Paul

	I'm currently considering adding a hot water tank to my furnace.  I have 
one of those "instant on-demand" hot water systems which runs off my oil burner
furnace.  The problem with this system is that I run out of hot water very
quickly especially in the shower.  

	MyMy oil company will sell me a 40 gallon aqua booster for my system, 
installed for $550.  This is much cheaper than buying a hot water tank
and installation from Sears.

	An alternative is buying a propane heated water tank system from 
suburban propane who supply me with propane for my stove and dryer.  A 40 
gallon tank will cost $240 plus roughly $175 for installation.  This appears to 
be cheaper.

	I should also add that I have a forced hot water (by oil) heating system
in the hosue.

	Any recommendations, comments?

    Hmmm... I thought the average life time of hot water heaters were
    about 10 years or so.
    
    I recently had to shut the Gas of to the house for the weekend.
    I came back and lit the water heater and as it warmed up it started
    to leak. But once it was completely warm it stopped. I thought my
    4 yr gas water heater was young (I guess not).
    
    What do you think:
    
    Is it a true leak and the expansion of the tank sealed it?
    Is it a true leak and its evaporating before it gets to the bottom?
    Is it condensation that built up from being in a cool cellar?
    

    
    
    Depends on the type..........
    
    You can get them with a 3,5,10......year life span........
    
    You can tell what type you have by when it starts leaking.
    
    They usually start within a month of the end of the warrenty period.
    
    Lou 

>    I recently had to shut the Gas of to the house for the weekend.
>    I came back and lit the water heater and as it warmed up it started
>    to leak. But once it was completely warm it stopped. I thought my
>    4 yr gas water heater was young (I guess not).
    
When gas burns, a lot of water vapor is produced.  Normally this goes up the
flue.  But when the tank is cold, the vapor will condense and run out the
bottom, giving the appearance of a leak.  It can a alot of water - enough to
put out the pilot.  This stops as soon as the tank is warmed.

    Sounds like you hit the nail on the head. Thanks...

On the subject of possible over-insulating water heaters, here's an interesting
story.

Our home has a gas "copper-clad" hot water heater.  I'm not sure of the
capacity, but we've been able to take back-to-back hot showers and do the dishes
without running out.

Recently I decided to put an insulating wrap around the heater, since it seemed
to be fairly warm on the outside.  I wrapped it with fiberglass insulation,
trying to cover the entire outside.  This included the lines coming out of the
gas valve (gas supply and thermocouple?).

The other day, we were surprised to find that we had only warm water!  Fearing
the worst, I rushed to the basement, but happily found no leaks.  The heater
wasn't running.  I decided to see if it was warm, and slipped my hand under the
insulation.  It was extremely hot!  I removed the insulation from around the
gas/thermocouple lines to look things over and could actually feel the heat
venting out as I did so.  Within a minute, the heater came on and we were back
to normal.

What I *think* was going on here was that somehow the extra heat around the
control section of the heater was fooling the system into thinking that the
water was hot enough, when it really wasn't.  This is the only explanation I can
come up with.  If I'm right, I guess you really can over-insulate...

    
    
      Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that you should
    only wrap-insulate electric water heaters and not those fueled
    by gas or oil?
    
      I'm not sure where I heard this or why?
    
                                      Mark
    

    
    	Re: .15
    
    	I haven't heard the "don't wrap gas/oil but do wrap electric"
    statement.  What I have heard, however, is that due to the cost of
    operating an electric water heater, it is more likely a good candidate
    to be "wrapped" than a gas or oil heater.  It all comes down to the
    payback on the insulation investment -- the more it costs to operate
    the uninsulated water heater, the more you're likely to save by wrapping
    it.  Electric water heaters are notorious for being expensive to
    operate and thus insulating it should be high on most lists of
    suggestions.
    
    	(Hmmm, I wonder if the "don't wrap gas/oil" came from something
    like Mass Save where there policy might be to only wrap electric
    heaters to get the best bang for their buck.  No basis for thinking
    this, just speculating.)
    
    							-craig

    re .15,.16:

    Our Mass Save auditor wrapped our gas hot water heater.  Everything
    except the top and the controls.

When I  put in a new gas water heater about 3 years ago, it had a label stating
that the user  SHOULD NOT add additional insulation.  Don't remember if it said
why.

Dave

    re .15,.16,.17

    FWIW, my Mass Save auditor wrapped our ELECTRIC hot water heater and 
    said that GAS heaters should NOT be wrapped due to ....(if my feeble 
    brain recalls correctly)...danger of explosions.  He went on further 
    to explain why but since I had electric, I didn't question him or try 
    real hard to remember the details.

    If you have gas, you better ask first.

    Milton    

    HELP!
    
    I just got a new water heater about 2 months ago.  For some reason
    last night, my hot water was just trickling out of all the spockets.
    the cold water still has a heavy stream, so I'm wondering if there
    is anything I can do to get the hot water flowing again without calling
    the plumber.  any ideas?  i thought of draining the new heater,
    thinking that the pipes might be dirty...I'll wait for your ideas.
    
    thanks in advance.
    
    

	I would first try to determine if the water was being plugged
	before the water heater. By trying to drain the water heater will
	isolate this.

	Slow drain stream - before water heater; fast drain - after.

	Once you have isolated it to either before or after the water heater,
	I would then try opening and closing the shutoff valves in the 
	plumbing line (usually located near water heater). Do this while a
	faucet is open to see if this might dislog anything cloging the line.

	If that don't work I would bring in the plumber, with the thought
	that the water heater is clogged up. It should still be under
	warrenty.

	Let us know what you find.
	
	Bill

    If you do decide to drain the water heater, don't forget to trip the
    circuit breaker first.  (I'm assuming it's electric.)  This will
    prevent damage to the heating elements when the tank is refilled with
    cold water.
    
    Jim

I don't know the real answer, but it seems logical that burners which
use flames (ie. oil and gas) probably also need air to help vent whatever
byproduct is left over (ie exhaust) out of your house.  

I would think that wrapping anything around the heater would block that flow
of air and possibly allow a build-up of this exhaust.  If the exhaust still
contains anything flammable and it is allowed to build up...then boom!

Just a shot in the dark...but it seems logical to me.

Chris

re .20:

    A gas hot water heater has a flue at the top for exhaust gases.  The
    part of the hot water heater that gets wrapped is the sheet metal body
    around the sides.  You don't wrap the top at all.  Putting fiberglass
    around sheet metal doesn't make it any harder for gases to get through
    the metal.

    One little nit. Why do so many people call these things hot water
    heaters. THEY ARE NOT HOT WATER HEATERS, THEY ARE WATER HEATERS. If the
    water is hot there's no need to heat it.
    
    Back to your regular programming.
    
    

    	My Condo association has decided we need new water heaters. Ours
    are old and going... Everything is electric, so that simplifies the
    choice. We currently have 3 120 gal. tanks for every nine units, and
    there is plenty of hot water even when one tank goes down (and even
    when one of the last two drops an element). However, the electric
    costs are too high...
    	The plumbers presented several choices: replace the tanks we have
    with new residential 120 gal tanks, two heating elements each. $900
    each installed. That's $2700 for each 9-unit block. Or, put in one
    commercial heater for each block, 12 heating elements, $3000 each!
    	Anyone have experience with these? How about their
    efficiency/reliability? Are we getting ripped off by the plumbers? $900
    per tank (even 120 gal) sounds awful high...
    	Finally, what would happen if we put in two new tanks inplace of
    the three-tank groups we have now? After all, if there is enough hot
    water now with 3 elements running per group, we should be fine with 4?
    Or does their efficiency go down because they'll be heavily used then?
    
    DG

    To be even more specific "Cold Water Heaters"...

    Same thing with refrigerators. Frig, ala frigid, meaning cold.
    They should be call Frigertors. No need for "re" (meaning to
    do over again) prefix. :-)
    
    John

    You will not find "frigerate" in the dictionary; you will find
    "refrigerate" - the "re" is not a prefix.

    Ok, so a `water heater' heats cold water.  But what keeps the already
    hot water hot?  A `hot water heater', right?
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Hawk

    Guess I should have put more :-)'s in...

    Have you looked into renting the water heaters from your local
    electric Co. I rent 3 in one group of condos I own, and two in 
    my house. I had one go about a month ago, one call and it was,
    "what would be a convenient time to have us come and replace it".
    I pay between 5.00 and 8.00 per month.
    
    Paul

    
    	Re: .26  What keeps the hot water hot?
    
    	The insulation, that you're not supposed to put on it.
    
    
    	But seriousely, when I was looking to insulate my new hot water
    heater, or cold water heater, or moderate temperatured whatever Nashua
    puts in my copper pipes heater, the info sheet gave very clear warnings
    about dealing with gas heaters.  Basically it said that it is ok to
    insulate it, but to be very careful not to block the bottom couple
    of inches where the air intake is nor to block the outlet.
    
    								-craig
    
    p.s.  Whoever named the refridgerator with a "re" probably had
    teenagers that defrosted it every time they went for a snack!
    

    
    	Do you have, or can you get, gas lines into the building? 
    Converting from electric to gas will save you a lot of money in the
    long-run and might be well worth the upfront cost.
    
    							-craig

    
    Hi guys,
    
    I found out the problem...my washer machine button for hot water had
    been stuck and it was holding back the flow.  I changed it back to 
    a cold cycle and everything is just fine now...
    
    thanks for your advice!
    

    And, at least where I live, you can also rent the gas units, too.
    
    My original heater lasted some 14 years, it was there when I bought
    the house.  When it went, I decided to rent.  I was concerned about
    this decision, in that I'd end up paying out much more for rent
    than what a unit would cost.  But, when it died after 3 years, this
    decision looked good.  And it did again, when the replacement heater
    went after another 3 years.  
    
    I asked the installer why the company didn't rent better units than
    what the homeowner could buy, thereby making lots of dough.  He
    said all the units are the same, none last very long.  It didn't
    matter if you bought or rented, they just don't last as long as
    they used to.
    
    Lee

    If you can't get gas, you might consider oil.

    	Thanks for the advice so far, how about commercial vs. residential
    efficiency? Also, taken one by one, is $900 reasonable for a good 120
    gl. electric heater installed?
    	Getting either gas or oil is out of the question. It may be a good
    thing to do, but it's probably too much of a decision to ever wangle
    out of our condo meeting. The whole building is electric, btw, and it's
    been fine with us. For example, my heating costs are only $300-400 a
    winter for a third-floor one-bedroom with lots of window surface. So,
    we are pretty much staying with electric - but which ones??!
    
    DG

    	As an addendum, Boston Edison (our utility) no longer rents out
    water heaters, so we are back to the purchase choices.
    
    DG

Right, my gas hot water heater has vents near the bottom...perhaps your vents
are underneath your heater, but the thing still needs air to help vent the
fumes out through the exhaust vent.  Cars use a piston to push the fumes out,
your heater uses hot air (made by the hot flame) to push the fumes out.

Chris

    I have two gas water heaters in my basement, both insulated according
    to MassSave.  They are wrapped around the sides, but not the top and
    bottom.  My partner in home ownership is a professional building and
    grounds engineer. He did the wrapping.  I'll ask him what the story is
    the next time I see him.

    Back to silly:  the heaters in cars are hot-water heaters.

    It appears I must replace my 6 year old LP gas water heater.
    
    A call to my gas company revealed they have no plumbers on their staff.
    So do I have this right? Get a plumber to disconnect tank. Get gas
    company to deliver and install new tank. Get plumber *back* to connect
    tank. Get inspector to bless the whole deal. (I'm a little frustrated at 
    the thought of trying to get a plumber to do 2 house calls, as I'm very 
    familiar with the minimal amount of work he'll have to do. Screw in 2
    nipples and sweat 2 connections. wow.)
    
    What might this leak ultimately cost me?
    
    Edd 

    WE had a water heater (gas) replaced last year. The sellers of the new
    one obtained the permit, installed their heater, removed the old
    one, and done.
      A town or city inspector then checks it out, ok's it with a sticker.
    Then the gas company must light it...well a day later gas still did not
    show up so I turned the gas back on, turned the water at the heater on, 
    soaped up the new gas fittings, no leaks so we lit the pilot ourselves.
    
                                                    

    Argh, I can't find a plumber who's even interested...
    
    Edd

    
    Re:  Why not to wrap a water heater..  
    
    The only usefull thing I got out of a required course in Basic Heat
    Transfer can answer why some manufacturers might suggest not wrapping
    their water heaters.  The heat transfer capability of an object will be  
    proportional to the surface area of the object and inversly
    porportional to the thermal resistance.  In other words more heat will
    be radiated to the surrounding area with an increase in surface area, 
    while less heat will be radiated for an identically sized object if the 
    thermal resistance (R-factor) is increased.  
    
    What this means is that a "critical" amount of insulation exists where 
    you have an optimal trade-off of increased surface area to increased 
    thermal resistance.  By adding additional insulation beyond this
    critical amount you are acually increasing the amount of heat which is
    radiated to the surroundings, therby decreasing the effeciency of the 
    heater.   My guess is that with modern water heaters, utilizing 
    state of the art insulation materials, you are probably doing yourself
    a disservice by adding additional insulation. 
    
    /Jeff

>    What this means is that a "critical" amount of insulation exists where 
>    you have an optimal trade-off of increased surface area to increased 
>    thermal resistance.  By adding additional insulation beyond this
>    critical amount you are acually increasing the amount of heat which is
>    radiated to the surroundings, therby decreasing the effeciency of the 
>    heater.   My guess is that with modern water heaters, utilizing 
>    state of the art insulation materials, you are probably doing yourself
>    a disservice by adding additional insulation. 

I don't see how adding more insulation could cause more heat loss.  You aren't
increasing the size of the water heater itself. An added layer of insulation
will slow the heat transfer from the outer skin to the outer environment.  A
heater with no additional insulation will lose any heat that makes its way to
the surface (through all the manufacture's insulation) quickly.  If there's an
additional layer, it will add that much more resistance to the heat loss. Heat
won't be lost from the outer surface of the heater quickly, so the temperature
gradient across the internal insulation will be low, so heat from the inside
of the heater will be lost slowly.

I can, however, see how a homeowner can do himself a disservice by spending so
much $$$ on insulation that he can never recover the money spent.

-Mike

    
>I don't see how adding more insulation could cause more heat loss.  You aren't
>increasing the size of the water heater itself. 
    
    Oh, but yes you are.  After insulation the heat source is the heater 
    and the heater wrap..  I'm not sure of the exact measurements for a 
    water heater, but lets assume the unit is 2 1/2 feet in diameter,
    and the insulation wrap is 2" thick..(also assume 4ft. height, however,
    this doesn't matter) 
    
    Surface area before insulations:          after insulation:
    
    pi*diameter*height                        pi*diameter*height
    
    3.14*30"*48"                              3.14*34"*48"
     
    or, the ratio of after to before surface area is:
    
    	34/30 = 1.133   
    
    In other words you've increased the surface area by 13%  In order to gain
    anything by adding the water heater wrap, you must increase the entire 
    thermal resistance of the "naked" water heater (water heater inner
    surface + factory insulation + outer body) by at least 13%  
                                                     
    /Jeff
    

Re Note  2725.31  What this means is that a "critical" amount of insulation
            exists where you have an optimal trade-off of increased surface
            area to increased thermal  resistance.    By  adding additional
            insulation  beyond  this  critical  amount   you  are  actually
            increasing  the  amount  of  heat  which  is  radiated  to  the
            surroundings, thereby decreasing the efficiency of the heater.   

Uhh..  I don't mean to be unkind, but  you  got
that backwards.   up  to  some  amount,  adding
insulation  will increase heat  loss.    Adding
additional insulation after that will  decrease
heat loss.

Re Note 2725.32 I don't see how  adding  more  insulation  could cause more
            heat loss.  You aren't increasing the size  of the water heater
            itself. 

There are equations to show this,  but consider
this  simple example.  When you add  insulation
to  insulate  the  heater,  you  increase  it's
diameter and  thus  it's  surface area for heat
transfer. 

Let's pretend I  "insulate"  the  heater with a
poor  insulator,  such as  a  1"  thick  copper
plate.  I have increased  the  surface  area of
the heater, but my "insulation" has  such  poor
insulating  ability  that the net effect is  to
increase heat loss.

For reasonable  insulators  such  as  Fiberglas
wool the critical  thickness  (below  which you
make things worse not better) is quite small.

gjd

re .34:

>>Re Note 2725.32 I don't see how  adding  more  insulation  could cause more
>>            heat loss.  You aren't increasing the size  of the water heater
>>            itself. 

>There are equations to show this,  but consider
>this  simple example.  When you add  insulation
>to  insulate  the  heater,  you  increase  it's
>diameter and  thus  it's  surface area for heat
>transfer. 

>Let's pretend I  "insulate"  the  heater with a
>poor  insulator,  such as  a  1"  thick  copper
>plate.  ...

>For reasonable  insulators  such  as  Fiberglas
>wool the critical  thickness  (below  which you
>make things worse not better) is quite small.

Now that I think about it, there is an air-object barrier that acts as an
insulation layer at the surface of an object, so if you increase the surface
area with little or no increase of insulation between it and the object you are
trying to insulate (like your copper plate "insulation"), you will make things
worse.  This would affect small objects mostly, since that's when the surface
area change/depth of insulation ratio is largest.

-Mike

    Some plumbers will even get the water heater for you.  I just replaced
    mine and that's the route I went.  One visit from the plumber, take
    out the old and put in the new.  I was not aware that I had to have
    it inspected ... the plumber never even mentioned anything about
    it.  Is this a Mass or NH law ... or are you just assuming it needed
    inspecting?
    
    Joyce
    

    Edd, I've had mine replaced twice in the past 5-6 years, so I know
    the routine in Haverhill, Mass.
    
    The local Gas Co arranges for everything.  That is, a plumber shows
    up and disconnects the old. He also drains it.  Then he leaves.
     Later, a mover, hired by the Gas Co, shows up and takes away the
    old one while leaving the new one.  He unpacks it, and thats all.
    Later still, the plumber returns and connects the new tank.
    
    Never had an inspector show up for either replacement.

    All in all, it took all day.  I called the day it died, the work
    was done the next working day.
    
    Lee

    
    	I had my water heater replaced by the Gas Co. and they did
    everything in about 20 minutes!!  Two guys came and disconnected
    my old heater and installed my new one.  They also hauled my old
    one away.  For the 8 bucks a month they charged me (I live in another
    house now), it was worth it.  They did the job in less than a week
    after I made the call for the replacement program.
    
    								bill
    

    
    To those of you who did have the job inspected; Did the inspector
    look *only* at the water heater? (Yes, I realize they probably saw
    lots of things...;^))
    
    I'm kinda concerned about some of my own handiwork...
    
    Edd

    
    From what I saw the inspector do (not much...I wish my job was that
    easy) was stand there and look at it...said it was ok. I am going
    to asume that he just looked for proper distance from the wall and
    no water or gas pipes run in a funky and unsafe way.              
    
    Water was turned on by installers, gas was off. I turned gas on
    and gave the fittings a leak test...good so I lit it...done and
    hot water once again.                           
    
    Any past-life-inspectors out there? What "DO" you look for? 
    Why did you leave such a simple life as inspecting?
    
    I am curious also!
    

I suspect that another factor to this issue is that heat transfers through
the insulation by conduction, but it transfers from the surface by
radiation and convection.  So when you thicken the insulation, you aren't
decreasing the conducted heat by that much, but you are increasing the
surface area from which heat is lost by convection and radiation.
Here are rough and ready explanations of these terms:

  Conduction: something hot touches something that gets hot.

  Radiation:  how the sun warms the earth -- no contact needed.

  Convection: something hot warms surrounding air, which then rises
	and is replaced by cold air, speeding up the heat transfer.

		Enjoy,
		Larry

    I'm almost positive that (believe it or not!) SEARS will do the whole
    thing for you.  They sell the heaters (you'd probably need to go in and
    pick out the one you wanted), and they do have a 24-hour emergency
    heating problem phone number, so I ass/u/me this means that they
    actually WORK on them!
    
    I know someone that bought a hot water heater from them, had it almost all
    installed himself, realized he had been given the wrong heater,
    returned to Sears, and they offered to install the correct one and/or
    pay for the 'plumber' (himself) who installed the 'wrong' one.
    
    I don't particularly love Sears, but it sounds like it'd be one-stop
    shopping for you.
    
    As far as the inspector goes, the way I understand it in Mass., you can 
    Blow your house up (GAS/OIL)
    Burn your house down (ELECTRIC)
    But you CAN'T work on plumbing without an inspector 'if' you have town
    water/sewage.  I think the reasoning behind this is that with the first
    2, you only affect yourself.  Messing with town water, you have the
    capability of creating a siphon, and scr*wing the whole town!
    
    .... correct me if I'm wrong!
    
    			Patty

    
    
    		Let me relate my SEARS experience!  I got tired of
    replacing water heaters every 10 years so decided on the basis of
    "you get what you pay for" to get SEARS BEST lifetime warranteed
    heater.  1 week after the 1 year general warrantee expired it started
    to leak around the drain valve.  They reluctantly fixed it free
    although being sure I knew that the warrantee had run out (the lifetime
    warrantee is for the TANK itself NOT any connections to it!).  Then
    1 year after that it started leaking at the heating element joint where
    one scews in the element.  This time they figured maybe they would just
    give me a new heater 'cause we bitched that for $450 we should get a
    unit that is trouble free.  They left us the old unit(which I will sell
    if anyone is interested for $75 - you have to come and get it however.
    It LOOKS really nice and they said it was ok it just needed a heating
    element - $50)  Anyway, the lifetime warrantee covered the replacement
    but - note this - it did NOT cover the labor to put in the replacement!
    So, I did it myself but one really has to read the fine print!
    
    8^)
    
    

For a detailed treatment of insulating cylindrical surfaces, a good book
is "Heat Transfer" by Alan Chapman, 3rd Ed., Macmillan Pub. pps. 63-66.

In it, the "critical thickness" of insulation is explained, where MAXIMUM
heat loss occurs.  For this case, a very specific case (where the ratio of the 
thermal conductivity of the insulation to the convective film coefficient 
of the outer surface is greater than the cylinder radius) initially adding
insulation increases heat loss.  Beyond a certain radius (thickness) the 
additional insulation will reduce heat loss.  

There is no optimal insulation thickness that minimizes heat loss from a 
cylinder, more is always better.  In the special case described above, there 
can be an optimal insulation thickness that maximizes heat loss.

    This question may not be able to be definitively answered but any gut
    reactions would be welcomed...
    
    Would it be more fuel efficient to set my hot water heater at a
    temperature that is only as hot as I'd ever want it, or would setting
    it even hotter and using less (by mixing with cold water to give the
    desired temperature) use less fuel?
    
    Assume any other concerns such as "sterilizing rinse" for the dishes
    are out of the picture...
    
    Edd     

        
    In general,  the  lower  you set the temperature the more efficient it
    will be.
    
    If it is  an  electric  heater, hotter water means a hotter tank which
    means more heat loss.  Also, hotter water is going out the outlet pipe
    to the house, so more heat is lost through the pipe.
    
    If it's a gas or oil fired heater, hotter water means all of the above,
    plus hotter water means LESS heat transferred from  the gas or oil flame
    to  the  water  (as a limit problem example, if  the  water  were  the
    temperature of the flame, no heat is transferred and the  water does not
    heat up anymore.)
    
    
    
    
    

    re. 38

    You will have to maintain the higher temperature of the water in
    storage when you are not using it.  The lower temp is better.

I have a problem with hammering pipes that I haven't seen
asked in this notes file. If I overlooked a similar
note please let me know.

When we turn on the hot water to the bathroom tub there begins
an awful hammering in the pipe. The hotter you turn up the
water the faster the hammering gets. When the water is real
hot it sounds just like a machine gun.

Any ideas what the problem is? A friend mentioned that this
could happen if I don't have backventing. What is backventing?
And why do I need it?


Sean

    

I wonder if anybody can shed more light on details of hot water tank
flushing than previously covered in other notes/replies.

I have a 30 gallon oil-fired hot water heater that I think has become
somewhat crudded up on the bottom of the tank. After the water has
been heated up there is a bubbling sound as if there were particles
acting as boiling points inside the tank. The tank is about 5 years old,
and I've "flushed" it perhaps a couple times per year.

The way I've flushed it is: turn the intake valve off (a 90 degree turn
valve), open a hot water faucet somewhere in the house, and then open
the draining spigot on the tank. I've never really seen much if any
crud coming out, and I figure its because its clean. Now I'm getting these
strange sounds, and wonder if crud has been building up all along
because of inadequate "flushing".

Does the tank *have* to be completely drained to "flush" it? Or is
just opening the spigot enough? Does it help or hinder to close the
intake valve? or to open a hot water faucet in the house?
Should it be done with the tank at the hottest? or is it okay
to have the tank completely cold?

One thought I had if the tank need be completely drained: after
draining, I could quickly open/close/open/close/etc the intake valve
to get splashes of water to wash off the insides of the empty tank. This
presumes there are no interfering baffles that may hinder it from doing
this. Would it help to send some water into the tank from the
drain spigot, and let it then drain back out?

    NOTE: The following is what I have to do for my 40 gallon electric
    water heater. I am not familiar with an oil fired one but I put
    this in thinking it may be of some help. 
        
    	This probably depends on your water but my water heater gets
    what I think are calcium deposits. They form on the heating elements
    and look/feel almost like a thin sea shell, except for the shape
    of course. The constant heating/cooling causes them to form on the
    the elements then flake off and fall to the bottom. There were so many
    in my water heater at one point that they were all the way up to the
    lower heating element. This is probably what caused the element to
    burn out too.
    
    	At any rate, just opening the faucet at the bottom does not
    get this stuff out. You have to completely drain the water heater
    (which will take forever if you have this stuff in there) and go
    in and physically remove it. 
    
    	If you have this stuff in there, the fastest way to drain the
    tank is to start in the usual way. In other words, attach a piece of 
    hose on the drain faucet at the bottom of the tank, TURN THE BREAKER 
    FOR THE HOT WATER HEATER OFF, turn off the cold water input, open the 
    pressure relief and/or any hot water faucet, and let it start to
    drain. 
        
    	While this is going on, remove the two wires from the upper
    heating element (if it has 2). When you think the water level has
    dropped below the element, remove the element. Note, if you screw
    it almost all the way out and the water level has not dropped below
    the element, it will leak a little. If this happens, simply screw it 
    back in hand tight and try again in a few minutes until no water leaks 
    out with the element almost all the way out.
    
    	Once the element is removed, stick a hose into the water heater
    through the hole that you took the element out of and suck on the end 
    to get a siphon going. Drain the water into the tub, sink, outside, or 
    whatever is most convenient. This will drain the heater in about 3
    minutes vs. 3 hours the normal way.
    
    	To get ALL the water out you'll probably have to get a shallow
    pan and drain the last remaining bit out into the pan using the faucet 
    at the bottom of the heater.
    
    	Now comes the fun part. You either want to remove the lower
    heating element (if it is fairly close to the bottom of the heater)
    or the whole drain faucet itself. You will have to build a make
    shift tool by some how attaching (i.e. tape) a hose small enough
    to fit through the faucet/element hole to a wet/dry vacuum. You are 
    now ready to start removing the deposits. It will take awhile as some 
    of the deposits will most likely be larger than the hose opening.

        If your deposits looked anything like mine, you'll quickly 
    understand why just opening the drain faucet will not remove these 
    things.
    
    NOTE: If you remove the faucet you'll have to get a special kind
    of tape to put on the faucet threads when you reinstall the faucet.
    Someone else may be able to elaborate a bit more as I forget what
    it's called offhand (i.e. pipe thread tape ???).

    	After you get all the deposits out, reinstall the element/s
    and/or faucet. Close the pressure relief valve (if you opened it)
    and open a nearby hot water faucet to a sink/tub. Turn the cold
    water input valve on to refill the heater. When water comes out of the 
    sink/tub faucet, turn off the sink/tub faucet and turn the water
    heater breaker back on.

    DO NOT TURN THE WATER HEATER BREAKER ON UNTIL THE WATER HEATER IS
    COMPLETELY FILLED.

    	Hope this helps.........Ray

    Re -.1  I'll  agree  with  that- I think it's the only effective way of
    cleaning out a  water  heater.   I used to it as described in -.1 every
    year or so, except  I never tried unscrewing the valve, I just took out
    both heating elements.  I  didn't  think  it was too hard a job really-
    more fun than fertilizing the lawn...
    
    gjd
    

    I have the same problem.  I replaced the release valve, and still get 1
    or 2 pints of water a day.  Having just bought the house, I have no
    history on the situation.  I have found that there is a one-way valve
    on the supply side of the water heater, the former owner had a wood
    stove water pre-heater of some kind...
    
    I have not seen a definitive answer to this problem?  Can anybody help? 
    Or is the $63 pressure regulator the only way to go?
    
    Thanks for any help...
    

    Well, I finally fixed it.  Turns out that the one-way valve was the
    culprit.   I removed it (along with about 20' of copper!) and no more
    leaks.  I do know that there is another one-way valve on my water
    meter, but apparently, that won't stop the slow flow of the expansion
    in the hot water tank.
    

Re: .4 & .5

	The reason for the leaking relief valve problem is related to the
fact of water expansion. where this expansion goes is different to each
house. Most of it goes into pipes expanding. For houses with a pump,
they hve an expansion tank with an air bubble in it. Water is not as easy
to compress as air.
	In you case by removing that check valve gave the system more room
for expansion.

	The water pressure reducing valve does not releive the pressure,
but ensures the starting pressure of the water is lower. To understand this
observe turning on a faucet just after the hot water heater has finishd heating
the water. It will flow with a woosh then slow to the steady flow rate.
P.S. You won't notice this much on a tankless hot water heater.

	I will digress a little here; sorry...

	Mass plumbing codes states, or at least I was told by my plumbing
inspector, that you should not have a check valve in the line before a hot
water heater for the fact that dangerous pressures build up. I got confused
with this rule, knowing how the preasure regulator valve works.

	So in order to resolve my self from destroying preasure gauges, I
opted to install an expansion tank in the plumbing just after the valve.
I could observe the proessure going from 50lbs to 100+lbs. I installed a
1 gal. expansion tank. Now the pressure goes from 50lbs to 60lbs.
I also got rid of my pipes hammering.

	I hope that this gives you a better understanding of the problems
you were seeing.	

			Bill

I am having a problem with my gas hot water heater and would appreciate any 
advice. (I have read ALL of the hot_water notes and learned quite a bit but 
did not find my exact problem.) 

Recently, I have been finding a small amount (a cup or so) of water under 
the tank from time to time. It seems to appear when a lot of hot water is 
being used. I found a slow seapage out of the point at which the output pipe 
is fitted to the first segment of pipe external to the tank. This very slow 
stream travels down into the tank insulation material and apparently down to 
the base of the tank where it drips to the floor. It looks like this may be 
my only problem. (The tank is 5 years old and, although it has visible rust, 
*seems* to be holding up.) 

Here is my question. Is there anything I can do to seal the leak at this 
fitting. I have never done any plumbing or soldering and if it comes to that 
I would want a pro doing it. (I'd probably make the slow stream into a fast 
one.) I was wondering if there was somekind of material you could wrap 
around or apply to the joint to seal the water in.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Jack

    Anything you do short of taking it apart and repairing it properly
    will be a band-aid at best.
    
    I once developed a hairline crack in the 6" nipple connected to the
    the outlet on my tank. On New Year's Eve no less. A goodly measure of
    vinyl tape stopped in until I could replace it, but I wouldn't
    recommend that as a permanent fix.
    
    It's not difficult to repair, but if you're not comfortable doing it
    yourself, GET HELP! A bad fix is no better (or worse) than no fix.
    
    Edd

    Are the pipes threaded, copper, or PVC?
    
    If threaded, try tightening the connection first.  Otherwise, take
    apart the connection, get some pipe dope (a syrup type solution in a
    can with a paint brush which you brush on pipe threads before fitting
    them to help seal leaks between the threads) disconnect the threaded
    piece, apply some pipe dope and retighten.  A least one $15 14 inch
    pipe wrench will be required do to this job.  Don't worry, once you fix
    this one plumbing problem, you will use the wrench to fix other
    problems when they arise at midnight, on a holiday, with a blizzard,
    with all the hardware stores closed.
    
    If copper, you could heat the connetion with a propane torch, apply
    some additional solder to the joint, let cool and test.  This only
    works occasionally.  Ususally in a copper joint you will have to cut
    out the bad connection and sweat in a new fitting.  See the Plumbing
    keywords for help on how to sweat copper.  You will also have to drain
    all the water out of the pipe you are sweating or you will never get
    the fittings hot enough to melt the solder and suck it into the
    fitting.  
    
    If PVC, cut out the bad connection, and glue in a new fitting.  PVC
    cannot be fixed, only replaced.  The glue will cost more than 10 ft of
    pipe and 2 fittings.  Total cost here should not exceed $8 to $10.
    
    Only the copper requires any practice.  Threaded pipe and PVC should be
    able to be fixed by just about anybody.
    
    Good Luck!

    .re -1
    
    I didn't say so but turn off the water to the tank and turn off the
    heating source 1 hour before working on the leak.  It will take the
    tank a while to cool down enough for you to work on it.  Remember the
    water in the tank is anywhere between 120 to 145 degrees and can burn
    you very easily.

    I can see trouble brewing.  Last Friday night my rental gas hot water
    heater started leaking.  I called ComGas and they said that the
    earliest anyone would be able to come would be Saturday.  Sure enough,
    the service tech. came and said "yeah, it's leaking."  He removed the
    labels from the water heater and made a telephone call.  He said that
    the earliest it could be replaced was Monday.  I said no thanks, I'll
    have one put in myself. 
    
    Saturday afternoon I went to our friendly Sears store and picked up
    an electric water heater.  (Yes, it costs more to run, but with only
    two of us, and with #10 wiring available on the spot for the purpose,
    I chose to go that route, just to keep it simple.)  I disconnected the
    old water heater, capped the gas line, and installed the new water
    heater.  I might add that I think everything is strictly proper, 
    including the metal conduit I added from an existing junction box
    to the heater.
    
    So far so good.
    
    Monday, a van pulled into the driveway and rang the door bell.  I
    answered and the person introduced himself as Shrewsbury's (MA)
    plumbing inspector, and he asked to see my new hot water heater
    installation.  I asked him how he knew I had a new one as we were
    walking to the basement and he said that the gas company told him.  He
    looked at the installation and said nothing about it, thanked me, and
    left.   He didn't even look at the gas line to see if it was properly
    capped; that certainly would be a reasonable concern.
    
    Today, my wife received a call from the inspector saying that he did
    not find a permit on file for installing the water heater.  He's going
    to call back when I get home at 5:30.  Questions (please send mail
    direct to me even if you reply to this note):
    
    1.  Is a permit required for replacing a water heater?  What about
        adding an under the sink water filter?  What about changing a 
        shower head?  
    
    2.  Is a license required to replace a water heater?  Am I going to
        go to jail for this crime?  
    
    3.  Would the gas co. pull a permit to change a water heater?
    
    If you sense that I am ticked off, you're right.  I'd be willing to
    listen to any friendly advice you may have to offer.  In any event,
    I'll keep you all up to date on what's happening.  I think that it is
    important that we retain the right to maintain our own homes without
    lining someone's pocket.  I know what I am doing.  I've owned my own
    homes for over 31 years.  Before that, I worked with my dad in a
    heating/appliance business and connected plenty of water heaters and
    complete heating systems.  
    
    Please send me cards to cheer me up if I go to jail for this.  Only in
    Mass. could this happen.  
    
    gw
    

    I didn't believe it either - till I read it here in this conference.
    Suggest you take a few minutes to read over Note 388 - there's also
    another note that's related (1628) but no mention as to final outcome.
    
    ep

  In MA, if you're going to do any of your own plumbing or electrical work
without permits, make sure nobody knows about it!

  If I were you, since the cat is out of the bag, tell him you couldn't wait
until Monday for hot water, with guests in for the weekend.  Also add that 
you had no idea that permits were required for such work.  You, as a laymen,
aren't required to know about such things.  Licensed plumbers and electricians
are.

  Good luck, see you in 5 to 10  :)

  Steve

    I *believe* the only plumbing work one is allowed to do in the
    Peoples Republic of Taxachusetts is change their own faucet washers.
    

    	Back when I was married 8 years ago, our electric hot water
    heater sprung a leak.  I am a fairly handy person, so I went to
    some place that sold the same company water heater (big sand stone
    filter) and I bought an 85 gallon unit (the other unit was bigger
    and I can't remember the size).  It took a couple of us to move
    the old unit out of the cellar and then I connected the new unit
    up and, as far as I know, it is still working fine.  I never got
    a plumbing or an electrical permit (I rewired the inside as the
    house had a split meter - lower rate when you use electricity at
    night), so I guess I'll join you.
    
    	I think that this state should let you do your own plumbing
    or electrical work as long as an inspector comes out and checks
    it.  I wouldn't mind paying for the permit or the for the inspector,
    as long as I could do the work.  Electricians and plumbers ask for
    too much money to do some of the easiest things.  Yeah, yeah I can
    hear it now - inspectors are soooooooooooo busy that they can't
    come out to every house, well, I would do things "more legal" (if
    there is such a thing) if the system were different.  I will be
    finishing my basement, and I'll wire that myself!!!
    

    First, I want to thank all of you who responded to this note and
    sent me mail concerning the same.
    
    Last night the plumbing inspector called me and I admitted connecting
    it myself.  Yes, he told me about the law and the requirement for a
    permit even for a replacement water heater.  He admitted that when he
    looked at the installation he found no problem with it.   He told me
    that since the gas company told him about it, it is necessary that I
    have a licensed plumber get a permit ($20) and that the plumber would
    likely look at the installation.  (Probably for a handsome fee.)
    
    He also mentioned that he called Sears to find out who installed the
    tank.  But he called the Worcester/Auburn Sears, not the Marlboro
    Sears where I bought it.  Apparantly, the gas co. is p.o'd. about Sears
    taking their business and they get back by telling the inspectors that
    Sears installed another tank.  The inspector also said that there have
    been many such violations recently and they are trying to stop it.
    
    I have to admit that the inspector was polite and friendly through the
    whole thing.  It looks as though I may just be put on probation since I
    plea barganed by admitting that I at least *owned plumbing tools*.
    Anyway, I'll let you all know about the final outcome, which should
    happen within the next few days.
    
    gw
    
     
    
    It see

    Great. ComGas gets p.o.'d at Sears and *you* take the heat...
    
    ...whutta wonderful country.
    
    Edd

>       <<< Note 3775.2 by MFGMEM::S_JOHNSON "Just like I said, Crispie!" >>>
> You, as a laymen,
> aren't required to know about such things.  Licensed plumbers and electricians
> are.

Last I knew, the old adage about "ignorance of the law is no excuse" still
applied.  As you describe it, you make a good case for the status quo,
the implication being that "lay people can't keep up with proper practices,
so we (the state) are entitled to prevent them from doing their own work."

That aside, my experience along the lines of .0 was when I wired up
the addition on my house without a permit.  I had been misinformed
that a homeowner didn't need a permit as long he got an inspection.
When I asked for the inspection, the hole in the paperwork (no permit)
showed up.  So I just got one after the fact and everything worked okay.

But this case is plumbing, which you aren't supposed to do at all.
How does the inspector know you did it yourself?  How could even a 
licensed plumber have pulled permit over the weekend to do the work
"by the book?"  How did the gas company guy know you'd done it yourself?

- tom]

  Does the gas company (or anyone) have a right to report any private
  information about you to anyone at all?

    As an ignorant reader I am finding this topic very humorous.  I
    live in N.H. and don't know the laws about these things.(They could
    be as messed up as Mass!).  What doesn't make any sense to me is
    about these permits.  I could really see needing a permit to have
    any electrical work done along with an inspection of the work because
    you could burn your house down and the Fire Dept would have to come
    and put it out costing the city $.(Or do they charge you for this
    in Mass.?)  But why would you need one for plumbing?  Are they afraid
    you could drown, if you mess it up it will cost you bucks not the
    state.
    
    This is a funny topic though...
    
    Kevin
    

    re: .9
    No, the concern (in theory) is sanitation.  That *is* a valid
    concern, too.  However, the real reason for the no-plumbing-by-
    homeowners is, I am convinced, the plumber's union.  As long
    as the work is done correctly (verified by an inspection), it
    shouldn't matter who does it.  I can sweat copper pipe better
    than a lot of the plumbers I've come across.
    
    Re: right to privacy.  Why?  You told a stranger, voluntarily and
    without conditions, what you intended to do.  He's perfectly free
    to tell anybody else what you told him.  I believe the general legal
    opinion is that the consitution does not in any way guarantee a
    "right to privacy."  Any rights to privacy have to be specifically 
    spelled out.  If you ask me if that's a gaping flaw in our legal 
    system, I'd say yes...but that's the way it is.  

    RE .10 ...re: .9
>    No, the concern (in theory) is sanitation.

	That is a concern, but more imperative is dealing with sewer gases 
entering the home through improper venting.  They can explode a house faster 
than an electrical fire can burn it down.		--Mike

Also to prevent people from plumbing with lead bearing materials, then burying 
them in walls so they can't be seen until it's too late.

>    That is a concern, but  more  imperative  is  dealing  with sewer gases
>    entering the home through improper venting.    They can explode a house
>    faster than an electrical fire can burn it down.  --Mike

>    Also to  prevent people from plumbing with lead bearing materials, then
>    burying them in walls so they can't be seen until it's too late.
    
    I think  you  are  making  mountains out of molehills.  Lead solder has
    been used on pipes since the beginning of time.  Sure, lead is not good
    for you.  However,  if  the  problem  was  as severe as you suggest the
    human race would be extinct from lead poisoning.
    
    Sewer gas explosions?  I  suspect  the smell would drive you out of the
    house before you could get an explosive concentration.
    
    I bet  that if you rate "bad plumbing" on a list of causes of death and
    injury you will find it's less common than attacks by rabid skunks.
    
    Plumbing is  not  rocket science.  It requires less skill and knowledge
    than electrical wiring,  and small jobs are well within the skill range
    of a competent homeowner  who uses a "how to" book for reference.  Most
    states in the USA recognize  this.    Here  in  the  land  of kickback,
    corruption, and hire your relatives, however....
    
    The issue here is politics, not "safety".
    
    gjd
    

    You did WHAT???  Your OWN PLUMBING?????  Didn't you know that Spag's,
    Somerville Lumber, and every hardware store in the state only carry
    plumbing supplies for the convenience of licensed plumbers?  All us
    low-life homeowners aren't supposed to buy that stuff!
    
    BTW, wasn't there a petition for a ballot question on this a year or
    two ago?  What ever happened to that?
    
    P.S.  Am I subject to arrest for admitting that I repaired a hot water
    mixing valve in another note here? 

re .12:

So do what they do with electrical wiring now.  If you cover it up before
the inspector checks it out, you flunk.

These types of laws are counterproductive,  Most people have no problems of
doing the work and having an inspector come out and check it out.  If the
activity is illegal for a homeowner to do himself, many of these same people
will just say the heck with it, and do the work themselves, especially when
they see what plumbers want.  This work _never_ gets inspected.

BTW, what's the routine to get a plumber's license in MA?

-Mike

    Re .7
    
      Tom, the inspector asked who installed the water heater.  I had to
    admit that I did it; there was no one else to blame, unfortunately.
    The gas co. didn't know who installed it.  They just guessed that Sears
    did it, I think.  No one, including the gas co., could have obtained a
    permit over the weekend, if they would even bother.  I'd guess that
    they would just wait until Monday and pull it after the fact.
    
    BTW, the main reason I am in this fix is that I didn't want to wait 72
    or more hours for the $%#@ thing to get hot water.  I found a quicker,
    better way for getting into hot water.
    
    Re .8
    
    Mike, I don't know about their right to report private information.  As
    for the danger of introducing something harmful into the public water
    system, I can't imagine that happening by accident.  If, however,
    someone wanted to poison the water system, they wouldn't bother with a
    permit.  They would connect some sort of high pressure device to force
    the stuff back down the line.  
    
    The gas co. and the building inspector SHOULD be concerned about
    messing with gas connections.   Nothing was mentioned about that, and
    the inspector really didn't bother looking at it.  The only potential
    problem is the solder, which is 40% lead.  I guess there is a new
    requirement for a higher tin content.
    
    gw
    

Could you all take the philosophical discussions of building codes off to 3565
- which was created expressly because we frequently get into this rathole - and 
restrict this topic to discussion of specific situation in .0?

Thanks,
Paul

    
    Re: .16
    
    If you used lead solder, I think you'll probably have to have a plumber
    come and redo it.  I would plead ignorance and see if you can get off
    by scheduling a plumber to redo the work.
    

Re: .13 and other concerns about lead.  So the lead industry has done a 
better job than the cigarette industry but the literature is out there and
people who care can study it.  The latest interesting article I read was
about a study they conducted on high school graduates.  Seems you can 
test baby teeth and find out how much lead was ingested as the child grew
through the critical brain forming years of prenatal to age 5.  Seems the
ones with the most lead ingested were the dumbest in high school.  

Ok, so maybe lead won't kill you, or lead in your pipes isn't enough
to leave your kids retarded, unless they follow it up with some paint
chips, they'll just be a little dumber.

-Bob

    
    Re:
>     Seems you can test  baby teeth and find out how much lead was ingested
>    as the child grew through  the critical brain forming years of prenatal
>    to age 5.  Seems the  ones with the most lead ingested were the dumbest
>    in high school.  

    I don't doubt it.  You can  measure  most  anything with the techniques
    available  today.  And I don't dispute that  excess  lead  from  eating
    paint chips will do damage.  However, it is  a fact that every soldered
    joint in the country done before the law took effect was done with, you
    guessed  it,  lead solder.  So, lead is already in the  pipes,  and  to
    panic  because  someone  used  it on his water heater last week is  an
    over-reaction.
    
    Re:
>     Ok, so maybe lead won't kill you, or lead in your pipes isn't enough
>     to leave your kids retarded, unless they follow it up with some paint
>     chips, they'll just be a little dumber.

    Yes, but since their exposure to lead will be less than yours was as a
    child, (since there is less lead in the air from car exhaust) they will
    be less dumb than you are,(no offense  intended)  and your intelligence
    seems more than adequate. 
    
RE: >        -< What's the jail term for installing a FHW heating system? >-

    There isn't  one.    FHW  is  heating,  not  plumbing, and you can DIY.
    Everything after the  backflow  preventer to the FHW system is heating.
    (this is from a plumber who was in MRO)

Re: >BTW, what's the routine to get a plumber's license in MA?

    I  called  the  state house about a year ago  to  find  out.    Roughly
    speaking,  you  need to have an apprenticeship with a licensed  plumber
    for  about 3 years.  The plumber then has to sign  on  the  application
    that you have done you apprenticeship, or some such.  There are hideous
    penalties  for  plumbers  who  sign  for someone who has not done their
    apprenticeship. 
    

    
    Kind Regards,
    gjd

>    Plumbing is  not  rocket science.  It requires less skill and knowledge
>    than electrical wiring,  and small jobs are well within the skill range
>    of a competent homeowner  who uses a "how to" book for reference.  Most
>    states in the USA recognize  this.    Here  in  the  land  of kickback,
>    corruption, and hire your relatives, however....

Also, it usually  is easier to recognize a "goof" with plumbing than with
wiring.  Something about drips and sprays.......
    

re:  << Note 3775.19 by KAYAK::GROSSO >>>

      First  let  me  make clear the fact that I'm not intending in this
      reply to take a position pro or con on  lead  in  drinking  water,
      etc.   Please read what I say, not what YOU think I mean!

      ------------------------------------------------------------------
      
>      Seems  the [students] with the most lead ingested were the dumbest
>      in high school.  

      To  rely  solely on this correlation and to conclude that ingested
      lead causes students to perform more poorly in high  school  is  a
      complete miss-use of statistics. Drawing this conclusion from this
      evidence alone is making the mistake of equating  correlation  wit
      causality.
      
              STATISTICAL CORRELATION DOES NOT PROVE CAUSALITY!
      
      Correlation  can  at  best, only suggest avenues in which to search
      for causality. 
      
      In  the  case  in  point  I  suggest  that the high amount of lead
      ingested and the poor high school performance are  NOT  cause  and
      effect, but are both effects of another cause.  Namely POVERTY.
      
      Children  from poor families are more likely to be exposed to lead
      because they tend to live in older homes with lead pipes and  lead
      paint. 
      
      Children  from poor families are likely to do relatively poorly in
      high school because they typically don't  have  the  opportunities
      that  their  more affluent peers have to partake in intellectually
      stimulating activities.
      
      Get the idea?
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------
      
      This  is the third time in about the last two weeks that I've seen
      fellow DECies making the mistake of misusing statistics this  way.
      Statistics  are  a  very  valuable  and powerful tool but casually
      misusing them can have very bad results.
      
      
      Please pardon the tirade -- I now  return you to the topic at hand.

        re .0
        
        Let me get this right. THe comgas technician, heard you say that
        you intended to put a unit in your self, and as a licensed and
        knowledgable individual in the area, did not advise you that you
        would be breaking a law. Then the people at Sears sold you a
        heater without requesting a license, while they knoe full well,
        that only licensed people can install? I would say that both of
        these parties are at fault , and would folowup with a demand to
        the building inspector that they both be chastised for their
        irresponsible attitude to plumbing....
        
        q :-)
        

re lead:

How many of you ingest the water from the hot-water tap?  (Rhetorical
question.)  I just wash with it.  My drinking and cooking water comes from
the cold-water tap.  (I wonder how much lead I absorb while showering.)

re ComGas (re .0):

So those nice people reported you to the plumbing inspector.  Have you
considered switching your heating system from gas to oil?  And gleefully
telling ComGas where to put their gas line?  And why?

    Re .23 -- yes, you understand the situation fully.
    
    Re .24 -- The thought of switching crossed my mind.  But, gas certainly
    is cheaper-- at least it was through the past heating season.  I got
    the shaft, so to speak, from the gas co.  But, is makes more sense to
    swallow my pride and save the $1K or so cost of switching to oil and
    the higher operating cost.  That is, unless I install my own new
    oil heating system so I can start another note!
    
    With regard to the discussion on lead solder, I used lead solder.  I am
    not concerned with the lead for the addition of a "t" connector in the
    cold water line; that's the only likely source of lead since we don't
    drink water from the hot line.  I suspect that the no lead solder is
    a good approach for new homes.  But, why bother?  Why not PVC?  If I
    were concerned about lead, I'd go plastic.  That's what we had in the
    south and it worked fine.  It certainly is easy to install.  
    
    The inspector said nothing about the solder.  He just said that he
    was satisfied with the job.  He didn't say anything so I won't.  I
    am waiting for a plumber to call me back concerning the permit, so
    everything is presently on hold.
    
    gw
    

    re: .22 and LEAD Solder in general

    Yes, people can make statistics prove anything they want by quoting
    what part they want or take it out of context.

    Lead solder in water pipes:  I don't quite understand what all the fuss
    is about with using lead solder for water pipes.  If a joint is sweated
    properly (as one would assume if done by a "professional" [as most new
    construction is done]) how much solder is exposed at each joint?  I
    would like to see a study that shows how much lead is leached out of
    solder joints in PPM.  Of course, in places like Merrimack, NH where
    the water is VERY alkaline and leaches copper out of copper pipes, I
    would assume the amount of lead would be higher, assuming you could
    measure it with all the copper in the water. :-)

    The use of Antimony/Tin solder is probably not a bad idea, but I have
    to wonder if this isn't "Much ado about nothing" and over reaction.  I
    may be wrong (did *I* say that?) but I would imagine the amount of lead
    from solder joints is probably about as harmful as the amount of
    Mercury in a silver filling.

    Gee, the main windline and several feeder lines for my pipe organ are
    tin work soldered air tight with lead solder.  Not only am I getting
    lead from my water lines, I'm getting it in the air pushed through lead
    soldered windlines and lead alloy organ pipes! :-)

    BTW Handling organ pipes without gloves CAN cause lead poisoning, but
    that has nothing to do with this rathole discussion.

    -Bob

    This time I agree with you Bob.
    
    I always thought that the problem with lead solder in water supply
    plumbing was when the homeowner who thought he could do plumbing uesd
    enough solder to surely not leak.  In other words "too MUCH solder." 
    This excess is exposed to the water flow.
    
    In well soldered joints, just enough, this is a non-issue after the
    pipes have had 'some'(??) water run through them to flush any solder
    globules that may have gotten into the pipes.

    I guess you can measure the amount of lead in water that comes
    from lead solder.  It is, however, only significant when the
    water has been standing in the pipes for a long time (overnight,
    for example).  Since the first thing you probably do in the
    morning is flush the toilet and take a shower, the standing water
    should be long gone by the time you get down to breakfast.  I
    always let the kitchen faucet run a minute or so first thing in
    the morning to flush that line out before I mix the orange juice.
    With a few simple precautions like that, lead solder is really a
    non-issue.  It *can* be of significance in certain circumstances,
    but it's easy to minimize any risk.
    For what it's worth, the copper salts leached off copper tubing
    aren't very good for you either...but running the faucet for a
    minute to get rid of the standing water takes care of that problem
    too.

This topic certainly seems to have the rathole disease.  Having successfully
fought off (with Paul's help) the Massachusettts DIY plumbing laws, it seems 
to be dying of lead poisoning.

Some of these insights into the lead question are interesting and useful. 
Unfortunately, no one will ever find them again, since they're buried in a 
topic entitled "I replaced my water heater - now inspector's after me!".  

Furthermore, people looking for information about dealing with getting caught
without a permit will have to wade through all this lead to find it.

Please continue the lead discussion, but please do so in topic 577, "Lead in
drinking water", found using keyword PLUMBING-SUPPLY or SAFETY.  Any of you who
are particularly proud of your lead-based replies to 3775 may wish to move them
there.

		DCL, moderator, who managed to avoid using the tempting
		phrase "get the lead out" in the paragraphs above 

    What's all this about the S of Mass??  I believe the CODE is state
    approved, but individual towns are free to enact their own elec
    and plumb. codes.  I think your b**ch is with the town law.  I think
    you'll also find that the S of NH also works similarly.  About 15
    years ago, anyone with a box of wire nuts could hire out as an
    electrician in NH, but now their licenced.  
    
    Whether or not you can pull a permit in your own name depends on
    the laws of the individual town.
    
    Carl

    re: -.1  I agree.
    
    Have you asked the building inspector that you want a building permit?
    
    I know it's after the fact, but kindly suggest that the paperwork is
    just playing catch-up ball.  It was extenuating circumstances.
    If he's agreeable, you'll have to pay for the permit fee, which
    a plumber would have to get anyway and still charge you for.  And
    a plumber has to have his work inspected, too.  All you can really 
    hope to do is make out better on time, labor and possibly material.
    
    I don't know in what town you live; some are strict.  In my town, as
    a resident of my own home, _I_ am allowed to get my OWN building permit.
    This is not in conflict with the state, that is, they don't care who does
    it as long as it's proper and properly inspected.  When I remodelled
    and added on recently, I pulled the permit, I did all the electrical
    myself, I subbed out some of the plumbing and most of the framing
    (structural), I designed the scissors trusses and got them certified,
    then ultimately got all the permit signoffs.  No, I am not a builder
    or architect, but you should try to persuade the town for a permit.
    
    Having it inspected by the town's plumbing inspector should not 
    (officially) incur a cost.
    
    Erick

    
    	RE:31
    
    
    		I agree that you should at least try and get the permit
    yourself. I know that most towns in Mass will allow a homeowner
    to pull a permit for their own home for electrical work. 
    
    	I am an electrician who often has the homeowner procure his
    own permit when I am doing a service upgrade or whatever. I have
    not run into too many towns that won't go along with this as long
    as the work is being done in a single family home that is occupied
    by the owner.
    
    	I would think that the same might apply for the plumbing permit.
    but you never know!
    
    	PL
    
    

    RE: .32
    
    	I live in Gardner and when I finished the room over the garage,
    I asked the wiring inspector if I could pull a permit and he asked
    me if I was an electrician to which I said no.  He said that the
    only one who could pull a permit is an electrician.  Of course,
    I could have paid etc...

    That's a shame.  I wonder who they think they are protecting.
    
    When I lived in Phoenix many years ago ('72?), I had occasion to speak
    with the City building department.  They said  "Yes, we encourage
    you to get a permit and do your own work on your own house.  Here's
    how to...and how to do this...[etc]".  Their philosophy at that time
    (and maybe still today) was that since it's your house, they had found
    that people were more conscientious and meticulous about the work
    they did, even if it did take them longer than the pro's.  I was
    also told something to the effect that, "...these cowboys rush this job
    and we gotta get 'em back again...or they've left town..."
    
    I'm not an electrician.  I apologize if I sound a little arrogant,
    but I've seen some work that some locals do and I wouldn't let them
    touch my wiring with a 3.049-meter insulated pole!  One that I met 
    (very briefly) gave me so much baloney in '85 because I put UF cable 
    and GFI's in my new kitchen.  He couldn't understand that I didn't want 
    any appliance in my kitchen that's going to pop the GFI (yeah, that's 
    5 ma!).  And I ask you what the codes require for new kitchens today--
    GFI's. I did see it coming.  Oh yeah, all my work passed inspection, too. 
    
    Remember, you live in the house, not them.  Good luck.
    
    Erick

Once again, if we're going to go on and on about whether inspections are 
justified, whether people should be able to do their own, etc, could you all 
PLEASE take it to 3565????  That's why it was created in the first place.  
Leave this note to discuss the issue at hand.

You guys are going to induce me to start deleting notes soon....

Paul

    As a result of this story, I called in the official people to replace
    my leaking water heater.  As it turns out, it is a Mass Electric rental
    water heater, so this was the correct thing to do: it will cost me
    nothing above my usual rental charge.
    
    But, my handy fianc�, who was chafing at the bit to do it himself, and
    I want to know what is happening to the author of .0?  Is he in jail? 
    Has he been arrested?  Fined?  Threatened?  Or just verbally abused?
    
    Elaine
    

Breakin' rocks in the hot sun...

  re .34 ("3.049-meter insulated pole"):

  Either you very cleverly meant a "10-foot-and-one-millimeter" pole, or
  you got the conversion wrong. There are .3048 meters in one foot (in
  most books; .304801 in others).

	Re: .39

	Gee, I figure that an accuracy rate of 1 part in over 3,000 isn't bad
for a DYI notesfile...  We aren't professionals, you know?  :-)

							-c

    Re: .39
    For what it's worth (which isn't much...)  1 inch = 25.4 mm, EXACTLY,
    since around 1960 or so.  So the correct number is .30480000000.....
    
    Prior to 1960 (or whenever it was), the American conversion was
    1" = 2.540001mm (or something like that), the Canadian was 1" =
    2.54000000000...mm exactly, and the British conversion was 1" = 2.539998mm
    (or something like that).  Around 1960, everybody standardized on
    the Canadian definition.

>    Prior to 1960 (or whenever it was), the American conversion was
>    1" = 2.540001mm (or something like that), the Canadian was 1" =
>    2.54000000000...mm exactly, and the British conversion was 1" = 2.539998mm

  You mean 2.5xxx centimeters, yes?  

>    Prior to 1960 (or whenever it was), the American conversion was
>    1" = 2.540001mm (or something like that), the Canadian was 1" =
>    2.54000000000...mm exactly, and the British conversion was 1" = 2.539998mm
>    (or something like that).  Around 1960, everybody standardized on
>    the Canadian definition.

So which did they change, inches or millimeters?  A conversion rate isn't just 
some randomly generated number that you can change if you like.

Reminds me of the story of some group that tried to legislate (yes, it's true!)
that pi=3.00 because 3.14159..... was too hard to remember.

Paul

Indiana state legislature

    Opps - yes,  25.4mm, 2.54cm.
    
    I think the change was in the definition of the inch, to make the
    American inch, and the Canadian inch, and the British inch all be
    the same (25.4mm).  
    
    If anyone is interested in precision measurement, you might want
    to look up a book called "The Fundamentals of Mechanical Accuracy"
    by the Moore Special Tool Co. in Connecticut.  They build machines
    accurate to millionths of an inch and tenths of seconds of arc,
    and the book explains some of the things that go into trying to
    be that accurate.  

	Re: changing the definition of an inch

	Great, just one more thing to confuse the issue of exactly how big a
2x4 is.  "Which 2x4 do you mean?  The "old" 2x4 inches or the "new" 2x4 inches
or are you talking about the "very old" 2x4s that were _really_ 2x4 inches, er,
ah, old inches, that is, not _really_ 2x4 of the new inches..."

	:-)

								-craig

    Kinda in the vein of the main note, I need to move my gas dryer.
    The present gas line terminates about 7 ft. above the floor.  I
    want it moved over about 7 ft. laterally, then plumbed down to where
    the dryer will be.  This is about 14 ft overall.  
    
    I respect gas, so I decided to do the right thing, and called my
    plumber.  He told me he'd have to pull a permit first.  I said I
    didn't want gas installed, just to move an existing line.  But,
    he said ANYTHING to do with gas requires a permit in Haverhill.
    
    Well, since then, I've managed to rig up a new exhaust vent which
    eliminates my need to move the damn thing.  So there, mister inspector.
    
    Lee

    I saw an ad in Equus this month concerning a portable hot water heater
    (boy was is expensive - $795). It was to provide hot water for bathing
    horses. 
    I have no idea what the high range for the temperature was but the
    advantage to this hot water "heater" was that is was on rollers.
    I'll try to get the ad for tomorrow and give you some information.
    
    By the way, at my previous stable, we had a regular hot water heater
    with insulation surrounding it. Granted, the barn wasn't insulated 
    however it was built well and the temperature never went below 40 degs.
    Not with all the horses inside.
    
    		Cindy
    

Has anyone had any experience maintaining the burner on a propane-fired
hot water heater?  Mine no longer produces a nice blue flame - it's now
predominantly yellow.  I suspect it has gotten dirtied by the slightly hostile
environment of my workshop.

Can the burner be removed fairly easily and cleaned?

    There should be a manifold adjustment fairly accesable to wherever you
    light the pilot from. It's not more than a rotating disk with slots in
    it to regulate air/fuel mixture.
    
    Edd

The orfice might have picked up some particle of dust or
something; remove the nozzle and wash it out. DO NOT use wire
that might damage the nozzle.

After air drying the nozzle, screw it back on and relight it. The
yellow flame tells me that the gas isn't getting enough oxygen.
The manifold has a air mix adjustment on it to lean out the
fuel/air mixture. Adjust the mixture until you get the flame as
blue as possible.

cal

    Like many homes, my water heater is in the dad burn center of the
    basement. I want to finish my basement and if I could move the
    water heater to a corner in the shop I could gain a lot of space.
    It's electrice so obviously I'd have to move the line, I suppose
    it's 220, and have to do a little replumbing. Are there other
    considerations here? I plan to have a pro do it.
    
    Also, I heat the first floor right now with an airtight wood stove and 
    baseboards. I want to install a furnace that would have duct work to
    the first floor only. The house is about 24x50. I want to put the
    furnace in the same area as the water heater, in the corner of the
    house. The furnace would also be electric.
    
    What should I be concerned about? Or is this just a stupid thing
    to do? Some of the ducts will be longer than if it were in the
    center of the house, will this put a strain on the furnace? Will the
    rooms closest to the furnace be the warmest?
    
    Since the basement is not finished, running the duct work
    should be a snap (haha).
    
    Dave Kinney

    As a moderator, I am going to make a decree based upon the guideline
    that each note should only discuss one topic.  I have chosen the water
    heater question since it appeared first.  Feel free to barage this note
    with loads of information about moving water heaters.
    
    I would like to ask that the author of the base note review 1111.48 and
    1111.49 for information about electric heating and Forced Hot Air
    heating.  If he still has questions about installing a new Electric FHA
    system, please post a new note.  Please feel free to send me mail about
    the reasoning of this or review note 853.
    
    Bruce [co-moderator]
    

    Ooops, sorry. I guess I goofed. Thanks for the correction and to
    pointers.
    
    Dave Kinney

    Moving a water heater should not be a big technical deal.  
    
    Shut off power to water heater circuit.
    Turn off water supply to water heater.
    Drain water heater.  *CAREFUL* This is 120+ degree hot water!!!!
    Disconnect electrical supply.
    Disconnect cold water supply.
    Disconnect hot water supply.
    Disconnect overflow plumbing.
    Move water heater to new location.
    Extend all plumbing lines to new location.
    Extend electrical lines to new location.
    Close Drain!!!
    Connect overflow plumbing.
    Connect hot water supply plumbing.
    Connect cold water supply plumbing.
    Install new Little Gray Box Setback Timer in electrical supply.
    Connect electrical supply.
    Turn on water to supply to water heater.
    Allow water to fill water heater.
    Turn on circuit to water heater.
    Wrap water heater with insulation blanket.
    Set thermostat on water heater to 120 degrees.  (Check instructions
    that came with your dishwasher first)
    Wait 1 hour while water heats up.
    Enjoy new space in Basement.
    
    The Little Gray Box is a device that sells for about $35.  It is a
    little grey box about 4"-6" wide and 8"-10" tall.  It has a setback
    clock like the type you use on your lamps when you are away on
    vacation.  You have it turn off the water heater at midnight when you
    are thru washing dishes and clothes and have gone to bed and turn the
    water on 1 and 1/2 hours before you get up and start taking showers. 
    This saves you energy while everyone is sleeping.  No sense in heating
    water when noone is using it.  
    
    If you know that no one will be home during the day using hot water,
    then you can have it turn off while you are at work and turn on an hour
    before you get home so that you can wash dishes and clothes.  The box
    has an override switch so that you can turn it on and leave it on when
    you have guests and you never know when you will need hot water.  
    
    The box should pay for itself in about 2-3 months time in savings on
    your electrical bill.  The insulation blanket and turning down the
    thermostat should pay for itself in about 1-2 months time.  We
    installed a blanket and turned the thermostat down to 120 and saved $10
    dollars the first month.  The blanket cost $11.
    
    The only problem you may see with moving your water heater is that it
    may be further away from all your facets, dishwasher, and washing
    machine.  That means that you will have more standing water in the
    pipes that you will have to drain off before you get hot water.  
    
    Insulating your pipes will not help the above problem much unless you
    use hot water about every half an hour from the same location. 
    Insulating the pipes will help to reduce the ability of the metal pipes
    to draw heat from the water heater and there cause you to reheat the
    water in the tank.  I would also recommend insulating the COLD supply
    pipes about 3'-10' feet leading up to the water heater.  The cold
    supply pipe will gain some heat from the water heater and by insulating
    this cold supply pipe you are in effect pre-heating your cold water
    before it enters into the water heater.  
    

    While we are talking about saving money with a hot water heater...
    
    
    When my hot water heater was installed I noticed that the pipes
    (copper) for some distance from the heater remained quite warm even
    when no one was using hot water.  When I mentioned this to a heating
    specialist he said that I could help the situation somewhat by changing
    a short section of the pipe near the tank so that the pipe turned down
    for about a foot.  My pipe currently goes straight up and then
    continues on to the rest of the house.  Has anyone had experience with
    this?  Does it work?  Are other people's heaters set up with a short
    section of pipe going downward and I'm the only lucky one supporting
    the electric company?
    
    A visual aid follows:
    
    Currently:			    	   Recommended:
    
    
    	------------ hot pipe continues	   ___  _________
       |             for quite a distance  |  | |
       |             in this direction     |  | |
       |                                   |  | |
       |                                   |  ---
       |			           |
    -------                            ---------
    |      |                           |       |
    | tank |                           | tank  |
      etc.                               etc.

I never heard of that method to try to save heat, and I doubt it would work.

Something you may want to consider is to use a piece of plastic pipe right
at the heater.  Copper is an excellent conductor of heat and plastic is a
poor conductor.  Be sure the type of plastic you use can take the heat.

An even better idea is to simply insulate the pipes.  That's all I did.  If
you don't insulate all your hot water pipes, do those at the heater first.
Put a piece on the cold water pipe right at the heater, some heat escapes out
this pipe on my heater also.

-Mike

    Since this has digressed into a discussion of saving energy...
    
    I've seen a set of two automatic valves (one each for hot and cold
    sides) that claim to reduce heat loss.  They close off when you are not
    using hot water to keep convection currents from drawing heat away, and
    are also made of plastic, to keep conduction losses down.
    
    Also, be aware that some water heaters have warnings on them _not_ to
    use an extra insulating blanket.  Don't ask me _why_, but check the
    manual and nameplates and such before you add one.
    
    Willie

    The heat trap, consisting of a looped pipe (or down turned pipe) does
    work in helping to reduce heat loss, particularly in larger bore pipes.
    
    In a larger bore pipe (3/4" up) circulating currents build up in the
    pipe in the vertical section of pipe.  The longer the vertical section,
    and greater the pipe bore, the stronger the circulating currents.
    What the heat trap does is to limit the circulating currents and hence
    heat transfer to the pipe ... it really does work.
    
    Stuart
    

>    Shut off power to water heater circuit.
>    Turn off water supply to water heater.
>    Drain water heater.  *CAREFUL* This is 120+ degree hot water!!!!

    *** BEFORE you drain, open the pressure relief valve on top the 
        water heater.  If you don't do this you create a vacuum inside
        the heater.  This can cause the tank to colapse.

>    Disconnect electrical supply.
>   ...
>   ...
>    Turn on water to supply to water heater.

    Make sure that the pressure relief is stil open -- to let air out

>    Allow water to fill water heater.
    
    When water comes out he relief valve the heater is full; 
    Close the relief valve.
    
>    Turn on circuit to water heater.
>   ...
>   ...

    This question is about trying to prevent damage when a water heater
    leaks.
    
    We live in a slab ranch house. Our 82 gallon electric water heater is
    in a closet in our den, which is the ex-garage and on a slab lower than
    the rest of the house. Since I know that all water heaters leak
    eventually, I'm trying to figure out if there's an easy way to protect
    the contents of the den when the water heater gives out. My idea is to
    put moisture detectors at the top and bottom of the water heater, and
    have them close an electrically operated valve on the water heater
    inlet if things get wet. Optionally, the water heater power would also
    be cut off. I could also put a pump on the floor near the water heater,
    and maybe build a little moat wall around the water heater base.
    
    I'm thinking of this because of several previous bad experiences with
    leaking water heaters (3 inches of water in the basement, etc.).
    
    Does this seem sensible? The only electrically operated valves I know of
    are for zone heating control. Is there some other kind that makes more
    sense? I've seen hobby electronics kits for moisture detectors; is this
    also a standard plumbing item? Thanks for any info.
    
    --Dan

They have plastic tubs about 4 inches high and a little bigger in plan than a
washing machine that can be put under a washing machine in case it leaks.
Some (all?) have a drain in the center that is connected to the house waste
water system.  These are used in homes where the washer and dryer are on the
second floor.  This prevents damage to ceilings etc. below.

Something like this may work and is much less complicated (read: less prone to
failure) than a bunch of sensors and valves.  However, owning a ranch may make 
installation difficult or impossible.

Stan

    What temperature should I set my 100-gallon electric hot water tank at,
    considering that 130F is recommended maximum where young children are
    in the house.
    
    Can I set it lower (125, 120, 115, 110) and still get hot enough water
    for bath, shower, hand washing dishes?

    I wrote this note, tried to get it into the right Keyword section, but
    it did not go there. 

    I would suggest no lower than 120.
    
    		Steve

    	I need to move a gas hot water heater and I have a question
    concerning extending the gas line.  Right now the heater is on one side
    of the chimney and I want to move it to the other side.  
    
        The gas drop is about a 1 foot length of black pipe with 1/2" copper 
    tubing running to the gas inlet of the water heater.  There is a
    shutoff at the union of the black pipe and copper tubing.  My question
    is this, can I just increase the length of the copper tubing to reach
    the new loction of the water heater or do I need to move the actual gas
    drop from the supply pipe to be closer to the water heater.  
    
    	In the following diagram A is where the heater is now and B is where I 
    want to move it.  G is the location of the gas drop.  The dotted line
    would be the run of copper tubing to the  new location
    		 G -----------
                --    ------ |   __
    	       /  \  |      ||  /  \
              | A  | |chim- || | B  |
               \__/  |ney   ||  \__/
    		     |      ||____G
    		      ------

    Since this seems to be the end of the leaking water heater discussion,
    I'll continue here.  I have a one year old 80 gallon electric water
    heater, owned and maintained by Mass Electric.  Last year it was
    replaced because it was "leaking", and the cause could not be found.
    At that time, I started noticing puddles on the floor, but no floods. 
    My water use did increase about the beginning of last year when my
    husband moved in with me.
    
    I think the same thing is happening again.  I keep a 1 quart plastic
    container underneath the pressure relief valve.  After heavy use of the
    hot water, I get a cup or two of water in the container.  We have a
    pressure reducing valve.  Our pressure did not seem all that high, but
    we tried lowering it.  The effect was that the pressure is lower, but
    the overflow is still occuring at the same rate.
    
    From reading this note, as well as 937, 954 and 1623, I make the
    following leap of understanding.  Please correct me if I am wrong.
    
    	When a lot of hot water is used, the water heater fills with 
        mostly cold water.  When this water is heated, there is an
    	expansion because hot water takes more room than cold.
    
    	My water heater has no expansion tank, so it can't expand there.
    
    	My water heater has a gizmo on the cold water intake so the
   	contents of my water heater cannot contaminate our city's water
    	supply.  This gizmo prevents any expansion of water back down the
    	cold water supply line.
    
    	Therefore, the only place the water has to expand is out the
    	pressure relief valve.  There is nothing I can do about it except
    	to make sure I empty the bucket regularly (and probably get a
    	bigger bucket).
    
    If I'm right about this, is it good to have this valve exercised on a
    regular basis, as in one to three times a week?  The valve is, I think,
    from the original heater, and may be as much as 9 years old.
    
    Elaine, now apprenticing in plumbing.
    
    

    .39
    
    It could be just a leaky valve.  If it were mine, I would dump the hot
    water and let it refill with cold and wait for a drip to start.  Then,
    I would attach a pressure gauge to the threaded fitting on the end of
    the valve and open the valve.  That would give me a fair idea of how
    much pressure inside the tank it takes to get the drip started.  The
    valve I have is rated to open at 150lbs, yours should be the same, but
    may be different - it should be noted on the volve somewhere. Pressure
    valves are cheap.
    
    Dave

    Is it not common to install the overflow of hot water heaters on the 
    sewer system, so no need of dumping weekly the bucket of water ?
    
    H.

    
    Hi,
    
    	Chances are if the pressure/temp relief valve is that old it
    needs to be swapped out. Most plumbers will change them when installing
    a new Hot water tank for just the reasons you are noticing. The
    valves have a tendency to leak after a while and can become a real
    nuisance. 
    
      

    
    They get gummed up with mineral deposits and leak. Spag's has 'em.
    
    CdH
    

Check your local inspector.  In Nashua the code was maximum of 6' of copper
and you must use a flare fitting, not a crush fitting.  But some places allow
flex tube and other devices.  If you've got two pipe wrenches, adding to the
black iron run is easy.  Getting the pipe and threading it will cost you some
money but running gas pipe is easier than doing copper plumbing.

    Time for a new gas water heater.  My 10 year old Sears 40 gallon 
    with the 8 year warranty has developed a small leak.
    
    What's the best way to go?  Are some gas heaters better than others?
    
    Sears will sell me their 8 yr 40 gal for $280 plus $191 installation
    ($135 labor plus $16 for valves plus $15 for a permit plus $25 misc)
    
    I called a local licensed plumber and he said he could do it for $375
    complete.  He would use a Rheem gas water heater(10 yr); he said that the
    "hydroflow"? brand supplied by Somerville Lumber were not reliable (leaked)
    Are the Rheem's good units.  Are there better units (ones that have the
    lime liners that are supposed to be more resistant to lime deposits).
    I'm going to check some other local plumbers to check on the pricing.
    
    
    Somerville Lumber has a 40 gallon 10 year unit for $285 and a better
    unit for $335 (is 85% efficent with delimer).  I could have the plumber
    install one of these unit.  He figures that installation is $135 assuming I
    provide the valves and tank.   Are the Somerville lumber units worth
    the bucks.  Looks like the Rheem unit above is only costing me $240;
    seems awfully cheap unless he is passing his savings to me.  He knows
    about the Someville Lumber prices.
    
    Is there a better place to buy a 40 gallon/10 yr unit? 
    
    

    
>    Sears will sell me their 8 yr 40 gal for $280 plus $191 installation
>    ($135 labor plus $16 for valves plus $15 for a permit plus $25 misc)
	
    You must have lots more money than I do.  $16 for valves.  Why?  You
    already have a water heater in place.  All the pipes and valves and
    "stuff" is there except the new water heater.   $25 misc.  Ha!  Sounds
    like a item on the bill to run up the price.  The only misc parts he
    will use are .25 cents worth of pipe dope to seal the pipe fittings and
    .05 cents worth of soapy water which he will get from you.  The job at
    most should take 2 hours and that is including the hour it takes for
    the old water heater to drain. (which is already empty, that is why you
    are getting a new water heater) That means he is getting $135 an hour.
    
    You probably live in one of those states where you cannot do your own
    plumbing and must enture this outrageous travesty.  I would shop around
    for a cheaper plumber.  

If I were you, I'd check out HQ.  I just purchased an electric 50-gallon HWH
with the lime thingy for $236, 8-year warranty.  They just might have the best
price around.

Pete

    Thanks for the comments...I got a couple of ideas from them.
    I've done some more research and here is what I found out.
    
    Sear is more expensive but having gotten a couple of more
    estimates, it looks like their labor content is higher than $135. (Note:
    Installation is in Massachusetts.)  While the permit is $15, the
    labor to get it and wait for the inspector, etc will adds some bucks
    to the $135. I originally assumed that the $135 labor from another 
    plumber was true of Sears ($135, but no permit filing). Yeah,
    no permits, this was true of two other quotes.  One licensed
    plumber said that a permit was technically needed but he would do it
    without a permit.  One said that he could pull a permit but it would
    add $50 to the estimate ($15 for the permit and the balance for the
    time to get one and to wait for the inspector).  I think I will call 
    the town hall in Belmont to see what they have to say (I'm prepared
    to pay for the permit for the piece of mind, but not necessarily all
    of the plumber's time); maybe I can pull the permit for the plumber.
    
    As for the valves, the are 2, one is the vacuum and the other is the
    pressure/temp relief valve.  Most tanks at Somerville Lumber and
    Builder's Square don't come with any valves.  The high capacity models
    do come with a pressure/temp valve.  These valves cost about $16 new
    ($9 for one and $7 for the other).  I suppose I can reuse the vacuum
    relief valve, but I'm not so sure about the pressure/temp valve.  The 
    pressure/temp valve seems to be the more saftey device.  In anycase, 
    the valves are not a major dollar concern.
    
    I've gotten a couple of more estimates.  One was for $380 for a 40
    gal/10yr unit (no permit).  They would install a Bradford-White unit.
    Another plumber wanted $440 to $475; this had $140 to $175 for
    installation and $300 for the heater (again no permit).  The permit
    would be another $50.  The third company wanted $525 for everything,
    permit included and I pick the water heater, Rheem, AO Smith, etc.
    The third company said that the $380 was a good price and he couldn't
    match it.
    
    None of the plumbers were familiar with the delimer linings.  One
    plumber cautioned about heater warranties.  Depending on the brand,
    the tank vendors had different terms for replacements (pro-rating, 
    replacements might be only 5 yr models, old unit had to be returned 
    for replacement [more bucks for the plumber to take it back, on top 
    of the reinstallation]).  The AO Smith unit had the most liberal 
    T/C's according to the plumber; no conditions as long as it is in the
    warranty period.  I got the feeling from 2 of the plumbers that I
    should buy a 10 yr warranted unit and hope for the best.     
    
    I figure that an installation should take 2-3 hours if the plumber has
    to come in and drain the unit, disconnect and remove it, install the
    new unit and test/restart it.  Draining it completely can take time 
    (30-40 minutes) as I have done this before.  I'm going to see why I
    can't save some money by doing some of the prep stuff to reduce the
    plumber's time (and my bill) and still make the plumber take on the
    job. 
    
    I will let you all know what I windup doing.
    
    Ed

Somerville Lumber sells 40 gal natural gas water heaters for 179.95 plus
tax, free delivery.  Bought one 2.5 yrs ago, no problems.  It has a 5 year
warranty.   Best price I can find.
  Steve

Just a thought.  If the plumbers won't be taking out a permit, then the job would
be no different than if you did it yourself.  If you can sweat a joint, then
this is not a real difficult job.  Especially if you get a heater the same
size as the one coming out.  This would save you at least the $135 installation
charge.

Just a thought.

Ed..

    You might need to sweat a joint for the water lines but please don't
    attempt to sweat a joint for the gas connection.  You will end up
    collecting on several types of insurance polices.  May seem obvious to
    some but, Safety First.  Gas lines use threaded fittings.

    Job's done.  New Rheem 40 gal/10yr warr unit was put in.  Took 2 guys,
    one must have been an apprentice, a little over 35 minutes to 
    install (I had drained the old unit and shut off the water before they
    got there).  Off with the gas, disconnect the 2 water connections,
    gas connection and flue.  Push the old unit aside (I've got to haul it
    away) and in with the new unit.  Add 12 inches of new copper pipe, an
    elbow, 8 inches of copper pipe extension for the new pressure relief
    valve drain, 13 in of extension flue pipe (the new tank is about 13 inches
    shorter and a couple of inches wider than the old tank) and hook
    everything back up an you're done.  Under $15 in parts.
    
    Only two concerns.  One, the new heater only has a 28,000 BTU rating
    where the old one had a 40,000 BTU rating (33 gal/hr recovery).  I
    can't find a recovery rating on the new one.  "I hope that the newer
    units are more efficient".  Supposedly Rheem only makes this size/model;
    the next one up is a commerical unit.   The other is that the permit
    was not pulled until after the installation.  The inspector is coming
    to look this afternoon...shouldn't be a problem with the work but it
    will be a pain if there is.
    
    Ed

So how much did it cost?

    I got it done for $390, labor, parts, heater, and permit.  I figure I
    got a $250  equivelent heater delivered, installed and inspected.
    The inspector came and looked at it quickly, verifying the pressure
    valve rating and workmanship, no problems.  His opinion was the AO 
    Smith was a superior  unit.  I could have had an AO Smith
    for $25 more from the plumber  but he talked me out of it.  Also the 
    lower BTU rating is supposed to add to the life of the unit because it 
    is less stress on the tank.
    
    I got a list of the prices from my research if anybody is interested;
    it's only for the area West of Boston.  I hope that my experience
    has been helpful to those following this conference and it ends here.
    
    Ed
    
    Ed
    

    I have a hot water heater that was not removed when I had a new one
    installed, and I am trying to figure out who to call for removal.
    
    I'm fairly certain that the "regular" garbage disposal companies
    would not take this sort of item, but I am unable to find anything
    that seems appropriate under garbage removal in the yellow pages?
    
    Could someone point me in the right direction?
    
    Thanks,
    
    laurie Vandenberg

    The people who installed our new water heater carried the old unit
    outside and left it in my backyard. I proceeded to roll it to the
    curbside from where the city picked it up.
    
    Mike

    It depends where you live.  Some places have a pickup day for
    such things.  Other places you have to pay.  Eather the person
    installing them or a scrap metal place.  Ask a plumber if you know
    one, call a scrap metal place or a store that sell the heaters.
    Dont be surprised if you get  charged 5-25 bucks!
    
    JD

    I called my rubbish-pickup company, and for an extra charge they hauled
    the thing away - good thing too, since it was far too large to get into
    or onto my car, and the local dump won't take "white goods"
    (appliances) anymore anyway.  I don't know where the rubbish compnay
    took it - and I don't remember what they charged me, but the darn thing
    is OUT OF MY GARAGE.  It would be nice if it were standard practice
    that the outfit delivering and installing the new one also hauled away
    the old one for bulky broken appliances of that sort, since few people
    have a vehicle that can lug one, but that doesn't seem to be the way it
    works...  If you live in an area where rubbish pickup is paid for by your
    local taxes instead of something you contract for yourself, you will
    have to call the town agency to see if there is a pickup for big stuff
    like that - where my mother-in-law lives, "white goods" pickup is the
    first rubbish day each month.
            

    I just talked to my plumber friend, he said he takes them away
    if his customer wants him to - then he just charges them whatever
    it costs him to dump it - depending on the town - usually around
    $10.00
    
    Good luck!
    

    Mine made a great bullet stop and lead collector on my shooting range.

Old note, same old problem....

	I just bought a 6 year old house with a 10 year warranteed gas HW
heater, and I'm getting rust occasionally in the hot water.
I just flushed the tank yesterday, I'll watch it closely from now on.

I'm wondering if it may be just the anode.
The outside of the heater is spotless and there is no sign of leakage.
No one commented previously on how to tell the difference.

Does anyone have any experience with warranty claims on a "O.A. Smith" (?)
brand unit.  (forgot to write the exact name down)

	Dave.

    If the water tank has been off for a while, you might be getting
    the a flake off from the build up while it was sitting.  If the
    thank has some age to it, I would keep and eye open.  
    
    JD

    When I close the main water-line into the house, our water
    heater starts leaking from a valve atop the inlet dip pipe. When I open the
    water line it stops leaking.  This is a new house for us and I haven't
    seen this happen before.
    
    Any advice? explanation? recommendation?
    
    

    
        You mean that it's weeping a bit from the valve spindle?
        Does it stop leaking if you open or close the offending
        valve all the way?
    
        Try this:
    
        Cold in
           |
           V  |   +---------------- Tighten this nut slow & easy
          |   \   v
          |   -|  __     {}
          |   -|-|--|____{}
          |   -|_|--|____{}
          |   -|  --\    {}
          |   /      \   {}
          |   |       \
            |         Leaks here?
            V
         To tank
    
         regards,
    
         Colin
    

    Re .40:
    
    That's probably an "anti-siphon" device; our water heater has
    one, which also "dribbles" a bit when I shut off the main.
    There's this little "pin" sticking out of the top, and that's
    where the dribbles happen.

	Can someone give a little more detail on draining the air dam(s)?

	I think I have the same problem (banging hot water fixture in the 
	upstairs bathroom).

	How would I drain the dam?  shut off the main valve coming into the 
	house, open the upstairs faucet and a down stairs faucet?


			Tanks, Tim B.

Hi,

	I have a question I know you all can answer.
 I have oil heat furnace with hot water coming from it, (At least I think
 it is, I don't have a hot water heater), Any way, the house is very old 
 and I want to reduce my oil bill. I was thinking about putting in a 
 electric hot water heater (instead of having it come from the furnace),
 Is that wise? or will it be more trouble then its worth? I think all I 
 have to do is, splice into the water main from the street, to the hot 
 water tank, then from there to the plumbing in the kitchen and so on, and
 bingo, hot water in my faucets. And then the only FHW coming out of the 
 furnace would be the heat.   Right ?  Or am I missing something big here.

 Any and all advice or thoughts would be helpful.
 Bill

    Before you change anything I'd suggest you develop a better
    understanding of what you've got (not a knock, just an inference from
    your parenthetical comment) so you can make the best decision. Do you
    have a continual hot water system (via thermal transfer coils in the
    boiler)? That would seem a fair bet based on the apparent lack of a hot
    water tank. You might want to check the notes in here on that kind of
    system just for background.

    As for saving oil ... is it not true that oil provides cheaper BTUs per
    dollar than electricity? I thought electric heat (whether for water or
    your house) was about the most expensive way to get heat. You may wind
    up decreasing your oil bill but increasing your electric bill enough to
    make it more expensive in the long run (not even counting the conversion
    expense).

reply .1 has good advice, let me expand...

This is a problem I helped my mother resolve. The problem with a continuous
system is that the whole boiler is running all year and greatly heats the area 
where it is installed during the summer.  And it is likely that, due to age,
your system is inefficient. 

Adding in a seperate electric hot water heater is a trivial plumbing exercise.
Depending on how your boiler is fed, you might be able to just simply tap into
the main feed and run a line to the new heater (installing an appropriate
shutoff), cut the hot_water_to_house line and plug at the boiler_out end, and
run the line to the outlet from the new hot water tank.  Install the
appropriate electric feed and breakers and enjoy. 

If you don't have children (and, therefore do not use an inordinate amount of 
hot water for bathing and for laundry), an electric water heater MIGHT be the 
best way to go.  If, however, you are getting a sufficient supply of hot water 
now, status quo is likely the cheapest way.

If you need a lot of hot water, you could look into instlalling a gas water 
heater; natural gas if it is in the area, propane if not.  Here you have an 
additional advantage of using the gas for clothes drying and for cooking.  If a 
new clothes dryer and/or stove are appropriate........  a lot of if's.  To the 
plumbing involved, you need to add the appropriate gas pipe plumbing.  And if
you have to ask, you need a professional. It's no big deal if gas is already in
your house, it's a big deal if not. 

Finally, if the boiler you now have as really old, you might consider replacing
it which is what we did for my mother. The ONLY reason we took this approach
was because the boiler was about 25 years old and did a poor job of heating her
house as well as a poor job of providing hot water.   The cost was about $2K 
more than installing a gas water heater and tapping in to the hot water lines.
Overall heating performance went up and she has all of the hot water she needs
on demand.  And the boiler is efficient enough that during the summer no longer
has a well heated area where the boiler is installed.  

Luck,

Dave

    There's a couple of other possibilities.  First is an oil-fired
    water heater.  They're not common, but they are available and if you
    don't have gas, they're more economical than electric.
    
    Second is to use what is often called a Aqua Booster (this may be
    a brand name) - it's an insulated water storage tank (usually
    40 gallons) whose water is heated by a loop fed from your main
    boiler.  This can be much more efficient than a "tankless coil"
    in the boiler (which is probably what you have now).  The boiler
    will run much less often than it does now, and you'll have a better
    (if not almost endless) supply of hot water, compared to the coil's
    tendency to give you small amounts of hot water followed by copious
    amounts of tepid water.
    
    A better solution would be to replace the oil boiler with either
    a more modern one or a gas-fired boiler.  You can use the Aqua Booster
    there too (I have one, a "BoilerMate" brand) which works beautifully.
    
    					Steve

 >  Second is to use what is often called a Aqua Booster (this may be

Actually, any old tank will work fine.  It just treats the tank as a second
range.   My father is in the process of a conversion from electric to oil and 
is using his old hot water tank as the storage tank.  He's using the existing 
thermostat in the electric hot water heater; when the heater calls to turn 
on the electric heating elements, the furnace range will come on instead.

Anyway, back to the base note question.  In most cases, Per BTU is cheaper 
with oil as apposed to Electric.  Check out your electric rate.  I think mine
is about .08/kw hour.  At my father's vacation home in Maine, the rate 
was .15/kw hour.  I have an electric hot water heater, and I figure my hot
water (with a "little gray box") is costing btw $20-$30/month with two
adults, and a two year old.  I'm looking into alternatives to GET RID OF MY
ELECTRIC SYSTEM!  Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of natural gas, and
I haven't figured out how to disguise those ugly LP tanks.  Last I check the 
oil fired hot water heaters were $800-$1000 plus installation and don't 
forget about a means to vent them (ie flue/chiminy or power flue).

All said, I'd look into a more efficient furnace, and see what the pay back 
would look like.  You might be surprised.

    RE: .4
    
    Bury the propane tank in the ground. Use a 270 gallon model.
    
    Marc H.

    RE: -.1 
    
    I thought of this - is this legal?   What are the environmental 
    implications of burying a tank.  Who "owns" the tank in this 
    situation?
    
    -Brian  

As I understand it, .0 says he has an old house, with oil FHW heat, and demand
oil hot water.  And, hs says he wants to cut down his oil bill.  

Is your summer oil bill high, or just the winter bill?  If it's just winter, the
problem is not your demand hot water, it's heating an old house, probably one
with poor insulation.  If you have a relatively high bill in the summer, too,
perhaps it's time to get your furnace cleaned and adjusted for peak efficiency
(You DO get this done every year?).  If the furnace is old enough, its peak
efficiency might be low, in which case you might want to consider replacing it. 
Other things you may want to consider are insulating the hot water pipes, and
even the cold water pipes in the basement.  Upgrading windows to new low E
windows, especially if they are loose, drafty, single pane ones, or at least
sealing and recaulking around the existing windows. Insulating the attic, walls,
basement ceiling, and around the top of the foundation.  

Get a book of tips from your oil company.  

And if all else fails, before you consider converting to electric heat, you
should consider burning wood... starting with the first floor...

    Could someone please describe the procedure for draining a couple
    quarts from a hot water tank?  Do we need to shut off the 
    electricity and cold water?  As you can probably tell, I'm a fairly new
    home owner and we've been meaning to do this for ages now (we've been
    in the house for two years, and were advised to do this once a month). 
    The tank is electric.
    
    Any advice is appreciated!  Thank you in advance!
    
    Regards,
    
    Lynn
    
     

    Our bill for electric hot water for a family of 3 is currently
    running somewhere in the neighborhood of $40-$50/month.  I
    think you'd do well to consider some other alternative.

    No preparatioin needed; just open the faucet at the bottom of the 
    tank and drain the water.
    
    *CAVEAT*
    Since the valve doesn't get opened much, there is a small but
    finite chance that when you do open it, it will A) break or
    B) refuse to shut off completely or C) leak around the valve
    stem or D) have some other problem.  So...locate the shutoff
    valve for the water coming into the tank first, in case you
    need it in a hurry, and if you do have problems so water is
    draining from the tank but the tank is not being refilled, shut
    off the electricity so the heating elements don't get uncovered
    and burn out while you fix the problem.

    RE: .6
    I did it.....so its legal. 
    There are no environmental implications....the gas doesn't leak into
    the soil like oil would.
    
    THe propane company owns the tank(works nice when you want them to 
    remove it).
    
    Marc H.

    RE: -.1
    
    Wow.  Did the gas company know you were burrying it?  Are you committed
    to that gas company now and what if you change?  Who paid to have
    the tank burried?
    
    This could work out okay... gas stove, dryer, HW, and heat.  I could
    be looking at a 15$ electric bill yet :*)
    
    Thanks.

>    No preparatioin needed; just open the faucet at the bottom of the 
>    tank and drain the water.
>    
>    So...locate the shutoff
>    valve for the water coming into the tank first, in case you
>    need it in a hurry


Be sure not to shut off the incoming water while draining, or if you do,
open a hot water faucet somewhere in the house so air can get in.  If you
fail to do so, draining the water in the HW heater will create a vacuum and
you run the risk of fracturing or collapsing the water tank from the vacuum
it creates.  The tank should have a vacuum relief valve on it to prevent
this but it may not have one or it may not work.

-Mike

    .0> Could someone please describe the procedure for draining a couple
    .0> quarts from a hot water tank? ... were advised to do this once a
    .0> month

    What's the reasoning behind this?

    .0> Do we need to shut off the electricity and cold water?

    You may want to consider shutting off the electricity or turning the
    termostat to cold.  Should the tank empty, you don't want the heating
    element to try heating up the air inside.

    -- Ward

    
    
    I think I average about $20/month with cooking and hW
    for using LP gas.   That compared to about $50 with
    the electric stove and hw tank.   and it still works if the
    power goes out!!!
    
    JD
    

    
    
    I take it you wish to flush the HW tank???  If so, its simple.
    
    5 gal pail if you dont have a drain.
    I like to use an old washer hose.  Makes less of a mess.
    Then just run some water out and See what comes out.
    
    But as advised....If it hasnt been opened in a long time.....look
    out!:)
    
    JD 

    Hook up a hose to the bottom drain. Turn off power. Turn valve....wait
    a while.....close valve. Turn on power.
    
    Marc H.

    
    I second the comment about the valve - most of these seem to be
    of the washerless plastic variety, and are not designed to be opened
    regularly.  Whatever you do, don't overtighten it when you close it.
    
    
    Colin
    

Yep -- mine broke the first time I drained the tank -- wouldn't seal
afterwards.  The solution was to thread on another valve.

    	How often (once a year?) and how much (until no sediment comes out
    	or 1 gallon?) do you drain your hot water tank?

    	I used to drain mine by using the hot water to wash my car in the
    	winter, but that's when I had gas. Now I have electric and can't
    	afford that luxury, nor probably draining more than one gallon. :-)

    	But what's so harmful about the sediment that stays on the bottom 
    	anyway? I've drained but never understood the reason behind it.

    	-Erik

    
    I don't know about an electric tank, but for gas the layer of
    sediment is supposed to reduce the efficiency and accelerate
    corrosion.
    
    Colin
    

    
    	Ahh, that's right, that's why I did it for my gas unit (wanting
    	flame to heat water directly rather than sediment first then
    	water). But is draining still important to do for _electric_ hot 
    	water heaters?
                                                                    
	-Erik

	Heres an electricians point of view on the subject. 

The electric heating coils tend to boil the water around the element. This
causes a calcium like buildup to occur on the element. These deposits eventually
flake off and fall to the bottom of the tank. These should be cleaned out on
occaison. I feel it prolongs the life of the tank.

In areas where the water has a lot of minerals in it I've seen the sediment
actually build up to where it buried the bottom element which in turn causes the
element to burn out. I usually clean these by draining the tank until the water
gets below the bottom element. (If the drain is plugged take the cold inlet
fitting off and pump the tank empty with a small pump) After the water is below
that level take the bottom element out and with a wet-dry vac and a piece of
tubing taped to the hose start vacuuming the sediment and remaining water out. 
The tubing should be something you can bend and fits through the hole where the
element goes. It should also be long enough to reach all the way down to the
bottom of the tank in the rear corner.
Makes for a fun afternoon.....:"( 

Have fun


Paul

    Thank you everyone for your suggestions!  We'll give it a shot this
    weekend.
    
    Lynn
    

    thanks for all the input, Right now it's just my winter bill thats
    outragous,  I'll start by checking all windows and such, I was thinking
    of putting in a stove, (wood) but am undecided as to where to put it.
    Thanks for all the advice, I'll keep you posted as to what I do.
    
    Bill

Having glanced through other notes concerning hot water heaters
and not finding my question asked I'll enter a new note.  Mods
please move if you find a more appropriate base note.

I have a gas hot water heater, about 7-8 years old.  My question is
how can one inspect a hot water heater for rupture potential?

I live in a condo and recently the association sent out letters telling
owners that several heaters had ruptured causing damage to units and
neighboring units.  The memo strongly suggests replacing these heaters.
Seeing how there isn't a basement in these places, the hot water heaters
are located on the top floor loft area adjacent to 2 neighboring walls
where the damage potential is highest.

What I'm wondering is if mine is as bad off as the ones that ruptured.
There has only been one person living here at a time compared to many
other units with families so my usage is low compared to them.  I also
don't leave the thermostat cranked, just hot enough for a nice hot shower.
Does this make a positive difference or would I get more sediment buildup
and damage from that?  (I just learned from a recent note the importance
of draining these things periodically... I'll have to read this conference
more often :^)

Also, how do they typically rupture?  Would it look fine in the morning
then turn my place into a swimming pool by the time I get home from work,
or do they show warning signs of leakage giving me time to take action?

many thanks,

/john

    
    I don't think there's an easy way to do this.  Mine was a Rheemglass
    and started with a pinprick hole that quickly developed into a
    pint-a-minute hole. The only sign of ageing was about a quarter inch of
    rust flakes collected in the burner box.
    
    If you are worried about it, you can install a catch pan under the
    heater.  This is an aluminum pan about 3" deep with a standard 1.5"
    pipe outlet.  Even if you don't get a leak, this is useful if the
    pressure valve ever blows.  You then connect a pipe running to a drain
    (which is a lot easier to do upstairs than in a basement).  The pan
    costs about $25, and it takes about 2 hours to do.  You'll probably
    have to disconnect and reconnect the water pipes to and from the
    heater.  If you do this, take the opportunity to replace these pipes
    with the short flexible connectors (providing these comply with local
    code).  That way, when your heater does go, you'll be able to replace
    it very quickly.
    
    As it involves gas, you may want to get a pro to do the basic
    installation, and then do the drain pipework yourself with PVC pipe.
                                       
    Colin
    
    
    
    

    The things which wear out a tank are pressure cycles and thermal cycles.
    I would guess that there is little difference in pressure within the
    tank when water is running vs. when it is not, so pressure cycles are
    not significant.  You would have fewer thermal cycles if you use less
    hot water, assuming the tank is well-insulated.

    The only other thing to consider is static pressure on the tank.  You
    should have a pressure regulator before the tank's input, and you should
    set that as low as you can stand (how cold does the shower get when the
    washer starts its rinse cycle :-).

    Regardless of how little you cycle the tank, it's eventually going to
    fail.  Might as well put the pan in now.  If you really want to feel
    safe, figure out a way to be notified if there's water in the pan...

    
    My husband and I own a condo with the same situation.  Our water heater
    is located in the kitchen closet.  If it goes, it will damage not only
    our unit but the unit below as well.  
    
    We have been told from day one, that these types of water heaters were
    warranteed for 5 years or so...after that..?  So, after 7 years, we
    replaced it.  Luckily, my husbands good friend works for the gas
    company and knows all about the gas hookup as well as how to hook
    up the water heater.  The peace of mind is well worth it...even if
    we had to have it installed by a pro, we figured why wait for a
    disaster to happen.  (plus our unit is rented, and we can't count
    on the renter to always be doing maintenance, they are not very
    handy...)
    
    One less thing to potentially worry about.
    
    My 2cents.
    
    Deb

Thanks all for your comments.  Colin, I'll take your advice and check
for rust flakes tonight.  The tank _is_ sitting in a pan as you describe
however there is no drain pipe.  I'd love to have the peace of mind that
goes with just replacing it now but I'm refinancing this month and money
is a little tight.  I was hoping that I could find out through inspection
if I was in danger of rupture in the near term.  When these things "go"
how quickly is quick?  I can easily keep an eye on it every couple days.

/john

	    I've seen 3 or 4 gas hot water heaters go.  There was never
	any warning... just flooding.  These were glass lined heaters.  
	Copper lined lasted much better, they don't fracture like glass 
	can, but I don't think they're made anymore.
	    I think leaving the heater on a low(ish) setting will extend
	the life of a gas fired water heater.  That flame can get very 
	hot and it puts a great deal of stress on the glass.  Is there
	a way to limit how big/hot the flame gets?  It would take longer
	for the water to reach temperature but it would still be quick.

					Tim

    
    
    I dont believe their is any adjustment screw on a gas
    water heater.  The Pie plate sits under the tank and on
    comes the gas.....  Presto, heat.   Plus I dont think your
    recovery time would be good if you has a small flame..
    
    JD
    
    

    
    As for .5 - it's very quick & with no warning.  
    

    Looks like it's time to sell some stock :^(
    Thanks again for all the replies.
    
    /john

It happened to me without warning - what a mess.  The heater was about 5 
years old, and I later learned that that's about the typical life of a
gas-fired water heater.  I replaced it with an Amtrol Boilermate which has
a lifetime guarantee and I stopped worrying.

				Steve

    Our Sears gas-fired water heater sprung a very tiny leak 9.5 years into
    a 10-year warrantee.  They replaced the heater with a brand new one and
    charged us just for installation.

    Based on previous notes, I guess we where lucky that the heater warned
    us with a 1/4 cup a day leak.

    -- Ward

    	Is it the same situation for electric hot water heaters? I'd
    	imagine that the tank itself would last longer since its bottom is
    	not over-stressed by being over a flame. Do they last perhaps twice 
    	as long, say like ten years? When is the time you should get a new
    	one? Are electric heaters just as catastrophic when they fail as what 
    	people have been relating here so far? Is there a mandated
    	mechanism in the tank that shuts off the incoming cold water pipe 
    	when all pressure is lost indicating a break?

    	The problem I am having is: "how do you know when you are throwing
    	away a perfectly good electric hot water tank?" 

    	Or if it is in the basement like mine, do you just put all your
    	valuables up on pallets (good insurance anyway) and wait for the thing 
    	to go twenty years later? 
    
    	Now that you've got me worrying/thinking, do people ever have their
    	cold water pressure tanks fail on them too, so you'd have to
    	replace them every 5-10 years as well?

    	-Erik

    >-< are we talking 40 gallons or infinite gallons? (heater break) >-
    
    Infinite.  There's nothing to shut off the cold water supply.  An 
    option is to direct the water from a pan under the heater to a sump
    pump (or drain if you're lucky enough to have one nearby) and pump the
    water outside. Make sure the pump can keep up with the cold water 
    supply line.

    As .11 asked: 
    Does an electric heater have an 'extended' life compared to gas-fired? 
    
    	Bob

    Can anybody provide accurate costs of Electric Hot Water
    vs. Oil-burner Hot Water???
    
    
    Are there any formula's or equations to figure out the cost
    of each, say, per gallon??
    
    
    I've been told that electric hot water is expensive, but I 
    can't haven't been able to compare the real costs.
    
    
    Thanks,
    Bob F.

    Well, there's a conversion factor, which I don't happen to remember
    at the moment, to convert watts to BTUs.  Electric heat is 100%
    efficient at converting watts to heat, so what you pay for is
    what you get.  Find how many BTUs in 1 kilowatt-hour, divide
    the cost per kwh by that, and you get cost per BTU for electricity.
    
    Heating oil can produce about 110,000 BTU/gallon.  From that you have 
    to subtract the inefficiency of the boiler - say 75% efficient - so 
    you're actually getting around 80,000 BTU/gallon.  Divide the cost
    per gallon by 80,000 and get the cost per BTU for oil.
    
    Now, if you want cost per gallon of hot water, figure out the required
    temperature rise in the water - maybe from 50 degrees (these days) to
    120, or 60 degrees.  1 BTU the amount of heat required to raise 1 pound
    of water 1 degree F.  So find out how many pounds of water in a gallon
    - it's something like 8.2, I think - and multiply that by 60, and
    that's the number of BTUs required to heat 1 gallon of water from 
    50 to 120 degrees.
    
    So all you need is the watts-to-BTU conversion factor....
    

    Opps - 50 to 120 is a 70 degree rise, not 60....
    

If my memory serves me it's:


BTU/hr = watts x 3.41

    Re: .3
    
    Memory is correct.
    
    Last time I went through the math...the result was electric is 4X oil.
    
    Marc H.

    If you want a rough estimate of the relative cost of fuels, I saw 
    these numbers in an ad comparing the cost of different fuels for 
    heating an 1800-2000 sq foot house.  If you know how much you are
    spending for hot water now, you can scale your bill.
    
    natural gas: $700
    oil: $897
    air source heat pump: $1166
    propane: $1335
    electric baseboard $1957
    
    By the way, the ad was selling a monitor vented heating system which
    had a fuel cost of $426.  Does anyone know what this is?
    
    

I think the monitor units use kerosene, and perhaps other fuels.  They are
small direct vent wall units that stand about 24 inches high.

I'm also looking into alternatives to Electric hot water.   Mass electric 
had an interesting comparison on old verses new electric hot water heaters 
and the annual power consumption. I don't have the figures off the top of my
head, but they implied that the newer units had lower operating costs.  If
Electric is 100% efficient, then I think that only difference impacting the
operating cost would be the insulation on the tank.  Any way, I think the
electric has to go - and I have oil FHA now.

My father in law just installed a real nice direct vent 40 gallon propane
hot water heater - $201 from Home Depot.  I was considering about doing the 
same, but after thinking about it, I'm more inclined to buy a boiler and
use hot water and a heat coil to supply my forced hot air system.  This will
also accommodate my second floor addition to my 32x54 ranch with a second
zone of hot air without the hassle of duct work through the existing walls. 
The plumber I talked to recommended a tank, treated as a zone, off of the
boiler.  Sounds good to me.

My gut feeling is that while propane is less expensive than electric, it
still costs more than oil.

Any thoughts?  Thanks for the comparisons.  4x!  Geesh!

-Brian

    
    
    Hummmmm....well, Myself I just dont like to hear the 
    boiler run to heat HW....  Granted the tank cost more, but
    using a stove and HW tanks dosnt seem to cost much...
    
    JD

    In my 2250 sq/ft home that is 9 years old I have an oil boiler with
    an AMTROL hot water maker. For 1993 I spent $525.00 for heat & hot
    water. I figure I spent about $150.00 for the hot water. This is
    for a family of 5, no supplimental heating (ie wood) no solar ect.
    The boiler has a 87% AFUE rating. Oh and this is with the heat set
    at 68 all day long, 65'ish at night. I'm building another house and
    I intend to do the same thing. 
    
    
    PS: I should mention that the house has R29 walls and R38 ceiling.
    
    
    
    							/Dave
    

    I pulled this from the energy guid tags at home depot.  They are VERY 
    mis-leading - the scales that is.  For example, the LP scale went from
    .50 - 1.00 per gallon - LP in my area was around 1.29 per gal!  I've 
    attempted to normalize the numbers for "real" fuel costs below.  Oil
    seems to be the least expensive.  But, these numbers don't include the
    cost of running the oil burner - 5.8 amps at 110 volts.
    
    Hope this helps - interesting if nothing else.
    
    
Natural Gas			Liquid Petroleum	
Unit: Reliance 505		Unit: Reliance 505	
Cost $281 			Cost $281 	
				
Annual	Cost per 		Annual	Cost per 
Cost	 thermal		Cost	 Gal of LP
$103 	$0.40 			$103 	$0.50 
$129 	$0.50 			$129 	$0.60 
$154 	$0.60 			$154 	$0.70 
$189 	$0.70 			$189 	$0.80 
$204 	$0.80 			$204 	$0.90 
$222 	$0.90 			$222 	$1.00 

Actual cost in local area	Actual cost in local area	
$192 	$0.78 			$286 	$1.29 
				

Electric			Oil fired	
Unit: Reliance 50 gal		Unit: Reliance 502	
Cost $241 			Cost $732	
				
Annual	Cost per 		Annual	Cost per 
Cost	kW hr			Cost	Gal of oil
$198 	$0.04 			$240 	$1.20 
$297 	$0.06 			$250 	$1.25 
$397 	$0.08 			$260 	$1.30 
$496 	$0.10 			$270 	$1.35 
$595 	$0.12 			$280 	$1.40 
$694 	$0.14 			$291 	$1.45 

Actual cost in local area	Actual cost in local area	
$446 	$0.09 			$159 	$0.79 

    What are you folks with electric hot water heaters paying for electric
    every month.  We pay around $130 with Mass Electric.  Family of 4 in a
    4 br cape with 2 baths.
    
    I am considering converting over to an oil fired hot water heater.
    We have oil FHA for heat.  So this would require a seperate burner
    built into the water tank and an exhaust duct which joins the existing
    FHA oil burner exhaust up the same flue.
    
    I hope to save about $50/month in electric.  I have not been quoted a
    price yet but given a ball park of around $700.
    
    Has anyone made the conversion from electric to oil hot water.  Could
    you share the cost of the conversion and the amount you are saving per
    month on electric?
    
    Thanks, Mark

    Is that $130 your total electric bill, or just the hot water portion?
    
    We're paying about $130/month for our total electric bill, with hot
    water, also with Mass. Electric.  I figure the hot water portion of
    that is around $75, although that's just a rough guess; I haven't
    actually figured it out.  I could, as we have a separate meter on
    the hot water tank.
    

    I'm paying btw $50 and $80 per month in a 1500 sqft ranch with oil FHA
    and electric hot water/dryer/stove/oven with 2 adults and a 2 year old.
    I'm guessing that $35 per month of that is hot water.  That would 
    figure about right with the tables that I provided in the earlier
    reply.  I'm thinking of changing to either LP or oil hot water.
    
    There are pros and cons for each.  Oil is more $ up front. $700 to 
    $1000 if I use a powervent, the burner has to be cleaned, it's noisy,
    but the savings are the greatest, and the recovery time was twice of
    the other heaters that I lookes at (Electric, LP, or NG).
    
    I've still got to think this one out, but I think that oil may be the
    way to go for someone that can't get NG and has oil FHA.
    
    -Brian 

    We have a 4 bedroom, 2 bath, family room, living room, etc L shaped
    raised ranch that has gas FHA heat, gas hot water (40 gal tank),
    gas stove, and gas dryer.  During the late fall/winter/early spring
    timeframe, we're on the budget plan for $76 per month, with peak
    heating months in the $120 range.  During the summer, when it's
    pretty much just the hot water (2 adults, 2 children with baths/showers
    each day) and the dryer (6-8 loads each week), our natural gas bill
    is like $25-$30 each month.  We used to be propane (when our
    development was first built before they piped in the natural
    gas) and the bill was like $5 more per month, if that much.
    
    andy
    

    > We used to be propane (when our development was first built before 
    > they piped in the natural gas) and the bill was like $5 more per 
    > month, if that much.
    
    From what I've read, LP is considerably more expensive than NG.  Do you
    know what you were paying for LP per gallon back then?  Are you comparing
    the cost of LP back "when" to the cost of NG today?
    

	    We just got rid of an 80 gallon (Mass Electric rental) water 
	heater.  With the $7.00 rental, our electric bill averaged between
	$40 and $50.  This is in a ranch with two people.   I would have
	been happy to stick with them but my propane company had other
	plans.
	    We only used the propane to run a gas range.  Since we were
	using so little LP, the propane	company offered 3 choices:  Buy
	the tank and pay increased rates (MORE than $2.70 a gallon),
	rent the tank for ~$8.00 a month at the same rate or lease a 
	power vented hot water heater from them and buy LP at a reduced
	rate ($1.60 a gallon).
	    The leasing was a one time rental fee of $50.  My biggest
	savings will probably be on the rental fees.

					Tim

    RE: -1 Hum... seems like you might want to buy the heater.  My father
    in law did the same thing - but bought the heater for about $230
    (powervent) and is paying $129 for LP.  You'd have to crunch the 
    numbers, but you might come out ahead with buying a heater.
    
    -Brian

    re: LP vs NG pricing
    
    Our development was built with gas piping to all houses in the
    normal fashsion - but no Natural Gas feed was available to our
    area at the time.  So they had a "tank farm" at the end of the
    development that was filled with propane.  We were billed at
    the meter just as we are today with Natural gas.  )So we were in
    essence paying per therm like we are today).  The gas company
    (ENGI in NH) just filled their own huge tanks and billed us
    for individual usage.  When we converted to NG, the bills 
    went down very slightly, like the $5 per month I quoted.  Since
    then, the NG rates have risen, but not a whole heck of a lot.
    
    I've never had LP delivered to our specific house in a single tank,
    so I'm comparing apples and oranges in this case - but I could easily
    see that a home-delivered LP would be more expensive than a piped-in
    LP from a cluster tank farm where usage is metered at the house.
    
    andy
    

    andy,
    Let just say, the more items plug into the tank the less
    /gal you pay.  Ex.  Someone using LP just for HW would pay
    more than someone who cooked,heated,ect.  Like $1.33 vs $1.24
    respectively.  The only problem with that is each deal can play
    game with prices.  So it not like when you drive around the gas
    pumps for a fillup......
    
    But for cooking and heating, I still find it less expensive then
    oil and elect setup...
    
    JD

>    RE: -1 Hum... seems like you might want to buy the heater.  My father
>    in law did the same thing - but bought the heater for about $230

	    Naw... getting the WHeater and permits and plumbing, electric, 
	etc. was a pain in the @$$.  When my electric dryer buys the farm,
	I'll probably replace it with gas (LP converted, of course).  That
	would lower my rates some more.  
	    An added bonus with the power vent:  It allowed me to install
	the water heater closer to the bathroom.  Now the hot water gets 
	to the faucets quicker so less water is wasted.

					Tim
	

    Has anyone converted from electric hot water heater to an oil fired
    how water heater?  I plan to do this soon (next week or two).
    
    I currently pay @ $130/month for electric.  One person who did the
    same said they went from $130 down to $50/month on electric.
    
    Cost of installation was about $750.  
    
    I'd like to hear from others who have done this regarding costs and
    savings.
    
    Thanks, Mark

  Somewhere in this conference there was a reference to someone at most a town
away from where I live, paying about 60% of what I was for propane. That
called for a day shopping around. Turns out they were using a lot more than I
was. Called a few places and they often vary some on their usage/cost breaks:
Company A's lowest changeover was, say 350 gals/year and B's was 425. They all
seemed pretty competitive within a given tier. As I was pretty close to breaking
out of the bottom tier, I called my company and suggested that perhaps I'd go
elsewhere to get in the higher tier.  They countered by charging me at the
lower rate even though I hadn't used quite that much. I now do an annual LP
company review in the fall to determine who wants my business the most. To date
it's been a fairly effective strategy - if my existing company loses my
business they of course lose future profits, have to come get their tanks and
refund me for the remaining gas. They generally seem willing to go with $.10/gal
less profit margin.  The joys of a commodity market...

						Trace

This is a trivial problem, but I've never experienced it before and am curious:

Why is my shower water hotter at some times than others? Sometimes it's quite
hot (and I have to turn a little bit of cold water on) and other times it's
comfortable (I have the hot water faucet on all the way). This happens from
time to time even when no other person is using hot water, and happens with the
first shower of the day. 

The hot water heater is 5 years old, gas, and the thermostat is set to slightly
below the normal range (on the cool side of the dial, though not at the lowest
setting).

I haven't noticed any correlation with the weather (this has happened even when
the outside temperature is warm and the water pipes aren't cold at all).

Vicki Meagher

>    <<< Note 5283.0 by CASDOC::MEAGHER "In folly ripe, in reason rotten" >>>
>                       -< Hot Water Temperature Varies >-


	I have experienced this same phenomenon and my theory is that when
	the water seems it's hottest then chances are the thermostat has 
	recently turned on and the water has been brought up to the appro-
	priate tempature, when the water feels cooler then it has probably 
	cooled down and your drawing the water just prior to the thermostat 
	coming back on and bringing it up temp.

	I experienced this before from two separate brand new water heaters.

	    The flame heats the water and the water heats the thermostat.
	The flame doesn't turn off until the water surrounding the thermo-
	stat reaches temperature.  All the water doesn't heat up at the
	same time.  By the time the water temperature stabilizes, it will 
	be many degrees warmer than set point temp.  
	    In the morning, the water has been cooling all night... but 
	not quite enough to turn the heat back on.  The first shower will
	be cool, but if you wait half an hour, the next shower should be
	plenty hot.
					Tim
			

.1 and .2:

These explanations make sense. Thanks.

How do thermostats on gas water heaters work?  Are they purely mechanical or
is there some electrical component?  I know about the thermocouple that shuts
off the gas when the pilot goes out.

	Based on my experience this winter, our gas water heater has no
	electrical component in its thermostat. We had hot water (but no
	heat) for two days when the power went out. The furnace has electirc
	ignition and of course circulating pumps, but the water heater
	worked just fine.

	Roy

    Some gas appliances *do* have electrical controls, but use the heat
    generated by the pilot to generate the small amount of electricity
    that the controls need.  I had a gas "fireplace" that worked this
    way.

    
    I just had a new furnace (Peerless) and hot water tank put in (41
    gallon Armitrol) and in the morning, after there's been no hot water
    demand for hours, it takes about ten minutes of drawing hot water to
    get what I would consider HOT water from the tap.  It seems that the
    water is heated to a HOT temp after the furnace comes on and heats up
    the water in the hot water tank, but the water being held is what I
    would call "very warm"...not too hot to hold your hand under, but just
    warm enough to take a shower.  The thermostat on the hot water tank is
    up over 120 degrees..nearly all the way to the maximum setting, but I'm
    told those thermostats are not always accurate.
    
    I've had the contractor back in and he got it hotter, to where it is
    now, but I think they just turned up the thermostat...after checking
    the system out and bleeding it, just in case there was air in it.
    
    Any similar experiences?
    
    Jim

    The solution appeared to be merely adjusting the Armtrol hot water
    heater thermostat up to #5 of 6.  It looks like this particular
    thermostat is off by 20 or so degrees.  We now get very hot water and
    the heater doesn't come on very often.
    
    Jim

    Cross posted from 489 of CDSRV::ASKENET_V5; replies welcome there.
    
    I live in a building which has eight dwellings within it.  The hot
    water heating system is driven by natural gas and is shared amongst the
    eight homes.  There is a water meter [G] on the intake line of the hot
    water heating system [HWS], and a hot water meter [U] on each of the
    dwellings. There is a gas meter [G] on the intake side as well.
    
    -----[G]-------+
                   v
                 +---+
    -----[M]-----|HWS|-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
                 +---+     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
                          [U]   [U]   [U]   [U]   [U]   [U]   [U]   [U]
                           |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
                           v     v     v     v     v     v     v     v
    
    The charging method used is to measure the total water volume over a
    billing period by reading meter [M], then to measure the individual
    unit meters [U].  The gas consumption is then divided according to the
    proportion of water usage by each dwelling.
    
    The hot water heating system is a tank containing water that is heated
    by the burning of gas.  The gas burner runs according to a temperature
    sensor, currently set between 60�C (140�F) and 70�C (158�F).
    
    Lately, the pattern of usage during the early morning has resulted in
    significantly lower temperatures at the output of the hot water system.
    Temperatures have varied from 62�C (169�F) late at night to as low as
    40�C (104�F) at 7:00am.  (37.5�C or ~98�F is body temperature).
    
    Now when the temperature of the hot water is lower, less cold is used
    in the mix during showering.  A greater quantity of hot water is used. 
    If I have my shower consistently *before* anyone else, my hot water
    consumption will be lower.  If I have my shower consistently *after*
    everybody else, my hot water consumption will be higher.  Even if my
    consumption of the energy involved is equal.
    
    ******  My question; how do I work out how much money I will save by
    waking up early before everybody else in the building?
    
    Detailed questions;
    
    1)  When you mix hot and cold water, what proportions at what
    	temperature mix to a resultant temperature?
    
    2)  What volume of natural gas heats one litre of water from one
    	temperature to another?
    
    3)  What is the typical radiation loss from an insulated hot water
    	tank?
    
    I wish to model the system on my VAXstation at home.  If anyone is
    aware of any modelling software that may be appropriate, I'd be
    interested.  I have access to the meters.
    
    James Cameron
    CSS Sydney Engineering
    Digital Equipment Corporation (Australia) Pty. Limited A.C.N. 000 446 800
    ([email protected])

> Temperatures have varied from 62�C (169�F) late at night to as low as
> 40�C (104�F) at 7:00am.  (37.5�C or ~98�F is body temperature).

	169F!!! Ouch!

    
    
    Low tech way.....  get up early.  ready the meter.  take a shower.
    read the meter.  Take the average.  Do this for a week.   
    Then get up late. do the same...  Compair notes.   If you time your
    shower you might be able to get some Idea with in 2 days doing one
    early and one late.
    
    JD
    

Because we're not dealing with a state change, and treating the density of
the water as constant, mixing volumes of water is strictly proportional wrt 
temperature.

If, for example, you have one litre of water at 10 C and one litre at 60C and
you mix them together you get two litres at 35 C. Or more generally


		Taverage = v1*t1 + v2*t2
			   -------------
			      v1 + v2

Maybe it would be easier (as well as less stressful on the VAX ;<) ) if you
would take your shower at night?

Say you take a shower at a flow rate of 12 litres/min, and that length of the
shower is constant regardless of temperature
. 
Temperature for a fairly hot shower is approx 45 C. Hot water consumption at 
62 C, presuming cold water temp of 10 C, is 8.07 litres/min, vs 12 if the 
inlet hot water temp is 45 C. Saving does not increase, but discomfort factor 
does (did not attempt to evaluate) if hot water inlet temp drops below 45 C. 
There is a compensating factor in that colder showers tend to be shorter?

So maximum percentage saving on hot water gas bill is 33%

regards,
Michael Watts.

    Re: Note 5380.4 by WLDBIL::KILGORE
    
>               -< Just use the VAX as a private water heater >-
    
    I thought an Alpha would be better at that!
    
    Thanks for the replies, peoples.
    
    James

    What happens if the vacuum relief valve jams? Can it prevent water from
    entering the hot water heater?
    
    I have a 4 year old gas hot water heater in a building that had the
    hot water heater turned off and drained for 8 months. I just turned it
    on and can't get any water at all out of the hot water faucets. The
    heater is heating the water, I can get hot water (clean, no rust) out of
    the drain valve at the bottom of the heater but nowhere else.
    
    The cold water in the building is working fine and all the cold water
    valved and hot water valves associated with the heater are on. Looking
    for ideas before calling a plumber. The relief valve is about the only
    thing I can find that looks like it is servicable on the hot water
    heater. Could this cause the problem? If not, any other ideas?
    
    Ray

    
    To answer your question, No.  The vacuum breaker is there to prevent
    the tank from being crushed should the water pressure on the street
    mains drop to the point that a vacuum is created and water is 'sucked'
    back out of the house.  The breaker allows air into the tank to
    equalize pressure.  Neither that nor the pressure relief valve would
    cause the problem that you describe.  I would check the following:


    	1) Double check ALL the valves (including the cold water intake
    	   value)  There may be water in the tank, but not enough pressure
    	   to feed the faucets.  If you open the pressure relief valve and
    	   can get good pressure out, the intake side is probably OK and
    	   you can concentrate out outflow side.

    	2) Remove the screens from the faucets and run the water.  Often
    	   times scale from old pipe can plug the screens up tight.

    I should have mentioned, that when I open the pressure relief valve, I
    get absolutely no water coming out. The only place I can get hot water
    is at the drain valve on the bottom of the tank. There's hot water
    there but not much pressure.
    
    Guess I'll have to open the pipe coming into the water heater. Must be
    a plugged pipe if these simptoms can't be caused by the water heater
    itself.
    
    Ray

    	Do you get air coming out of the faucet when you turn on the hot
    water ? The first step in draining a tank is to turn off the breaker. 
    After draining a HW tank, the sequence to fill it is -
    
    	1. Open a hot water faucet someplace in the house
    
    	2. Open the cold water supply valve to the HW tank
    
    	3. Wait unit you have cold water flowing out of the hot water
    	   faucet you opened in step 1
    
    	4. Close the faucet and turn the HW heater breaker on
    
    	If there is any water at all in the tank you'll get it out the
    bottom since that is the lowest point in the tank. If you just turned
    on the water without opening a faucet, the water will compress the air
    in the tank until the input pressure matches the tank pressure.
    
    	Hot water exits the heater from the top of the tank. Again, this will 
    be air if you didn't open a faucet to fill it. You may have damaged your 
    upper element if you turned on the breaker without having the tank full 
    first.
    
    	Ray

    No water or air comes out of the faucet now or when tank was 'filled'.
    In fact, I removed the faucet to see if there was any blockage in the
    pipe at that end. There was none and even after carefully turning the
    water back on, there was nothing coming out of the pipe, even with the
    faucet removed.
    
    I think my next step will be to open the feed line before the tank to
    see if I have any water pressure coming into the tank. If there is no
    water at this point, I'll work back toward the source to find the
    blockage. If there is water, guess it's time to call the plumber to
    replace the tank.
    
    Ray

    Problem solved.
    
    Well, I opened the feed line and as suspected, there was no water
    coming into the water heater. Part of the water line coming into the hw
    heater was an old/non-copper pipe that was clogged. I replumbed the
    water heater from another cold water line and everything now works
    fine.
    
    Ray

    I'm not sure where to put this note, in the multitude of water heater
    notes, and I think I already know the answer (hire a plumber).
    
    When I bought my house last March, the building inspector called my
    attention to the the newness of the gas heat and hot water system, and
    the fact that it's a 40 gallon tank with the yellow energy efficiency
    rating sticker.  Fine.  Neither were brand new, but not terribly old,
    so I was pleased.
    
    I had a problem with the heat, and called EnergyNorth.  Since it was
    spring by then, I had them come the next morning.  While the guy was
    testing his repair, he noted that the heat problem was because the
    previous owners tried to fix it themselves by "jumping" wires, rather
    than buying the proper replacement fuse.  While he was waiting for the
    furnace to kick on, he started looking at the water tank.
    
    "Take a lot of long showers?" he asked.  "Only once a week," I replied. 
    He looked at me funny, and I said, "Long ones are only once a week! The
    rest are short!"  ;-)  He said, "You run out of hot water before the
    end of the long ones, right?"  He was right.  He said that the previous
    owners had probably installed the water heater themselves and the (I'm
    probably going to screw up terms here) cold intake pipe wasn't low
    enough in the tank, so the cold water was feeding in too high and
    cooling off the already heated water, rather than feeding in at the
    bottom and getting heated.
    
    Does this make sense?  Can I do anything about it other than hire a
    plumber?  How the heck could he tell?  He described the situation
    exactly, too.  I'm mostly concerned because of the dishwasher.  I
    noticed recently that the "hot water boost" light has to go on fairly
    early in the cycle, which means I'm using more electricity when I run
    the dishwasher.
    
    Since I live alone, it isn't that big a deal, but when I have guests we
    have to wait at least 15 minutes between showers and I can't run the
    dishwasher (and when I have guests is when I need to run the
    dishwasher).
    
    
    Susan

    I find this puzzling - the location of the cold water entrance in the
    tank is fixed by the manufacturer - I don't see how you could change
    it.  The only thinh I can imagine is switching the cold and hot lines,
    which might result in similar symptoms.
    
    				Steve

    
    That has to be it -- previous owner installed it backwards. The fix
    will take a bit of cutting and soldering to switch the in and out
    lines.
    

    The cold water feed also uses a plastic feed tube in the tank to
    deliver the cold water near the bottom. During installation,
    you're suppose to do some of the cold water pipe soldering off of
    the water heater and then srew the feed in to the top opening. If
    you solder it the while it's attached, you'll melt the plastic
    tube, it'll drop off inside, and then the cold water will enter
    the tank at the top.

    Charly

     
    .27 Has it nailed.
    
    	Inside the tank the cold water supply pipe extends to the bottom
    	of the tank and the hot out ends near the top. That way cold water
    	mixes with cold at the bottom and hot water draws off the hottest
    	water at the top. The only thing the repairman could tell from the
    	outside was that the connections were swapped. Sounds like you're 
    	drawing off the bottom and mixing in cold at the top. 
    
       								- Mac
                                                            

    Thanks!  This makes more sense to me than the explanation from the "gas
    man."  I'll check it out tonight.  And since I'm not handy in this way,
    and I would never trust my father with a soldering iron (!), I'd
    probably better call a plumber to have it switched.  --Susan

    
    Probably a �-hour job for a plumber. (Could take days, however, if
    you use a soldering iron :-)
    

It's easy to check.  The top of the tank will have "Hot" and "Cold" labels
or perhaps stamped into the metal casing.

				Steve

    And not so easy to check if the plumbing appears correct is the
    possibilty that the previous "plumber" damaged the plastic feed
    tube inside of the water heater. 

    Keep this in mind if the plumbing connections appear correct.

    Charly

        If the cold and hot pipes are correctly plumbed, then replacing the
    dip stick isn't to tough, not to consider. Shut down the cold feed
    line, then drain the hot water system to a level lower than the top of
    the water heater. De-solder the cold feed at the top of the tank and
    remove the threaded coupling. The dip stick is flared at the top and
    is seated inside the cold feed port of the tank. Stick your finger down
    inside and twist and pull up to free it. Then to remove it just pull it
    straight up and out. Insert the new replacement dip stick and close it up. 
    You may find the dip stick completely missing or just damaged or rotted 
    off. If you don't have a shutoff to isolate the cold feed to the tank now 
    would be a good time to add one. 


    /Jim	

Well, it's definitely not that the hot and cold are switched - they are 
correctly connected.  So it's probably the "dip stick" problem, but there
may be complications.

This morning, my father and brother were at my house to put in a new tile 
floor in the bathroom.  My dad went downstairs to shut off the water to 
the sink and toilet, but there were no shut-off valves in the pipes!

While we were down there, I told him about the water heater, and that I 
wasn't sure if it was correctly connected because BOTH pipes (hot and cold)
were very warm.  We traced the pipes, and they are correctly connected.  But
why would both pipes be warm?  We looked for another shut off valve (in case
we missed something), and then I touched the pipes again, because my dad 
said to tell you that the cold pipe was warm past the shut off valve, up 
to the joint.  And guess what?  It was now ice cold!

Without our knowing it, my brother ran hot water in the tub upstairs, then 
came down to see what was taking so long.  I told him about the water heater,
and touched the pipe and it was very warm again, past the shut off valve!

I'm new to this stuff, but that doesn't seem like it would be normal to 
me.  It certainly doesn't seem energy efficient for warm water to be 
backing up into the cold pipe that far.  And when I tried to explain the 
"dip stick" situation to my dad, he was totally baffled and couldn't figure 
out how that could possibly be fixed.  (Like I said, I'd never trust him 
with a soldering iron to do that one! ;-)

BTW, it's a Kenmore 40 gallon tank, that is supposedly energy-efficient.  I 
    have it set in the energy-efficient zone, but at the high end.  The
    outside of the tank is cool (which I assume means well-insulated).


Susan

    Copper is an *excellent* conductor of heat.  The cold-water
    inlet pipe will become warm several feet from the tank.
    

    Thanks, Steve.  I didn't think of that at all.  It must be the "dip
    stick" problem, then.
    
    
    Susan

I've seen special fittings designed to be installed right at the feed of
the water tank, to reduce heat flow out the pipes.  They're sold as a pair
(one each for hot and cold)  I don't know how well they work. They appear to be
plastic as well (watch the soldering torch)

Copper is something like the second best conductor of heat as Steve mentioned.

-Mike

    re:26
    
    	How did the person tell that the cold water inlet pipe was not far
    enough into the tank ? There is only one way I know of to do this
    without disconnecting the heater.
    
    	You'd have to drain the heater, remove the bottom element, and look
    in the hole the element came from with a flashlight to see the end of the 
    pipe. In my case, the pipe in my heater was copper. Perhaps some of the 
    newer ones are plastic.
    
    	It sounds as though a more likely cause of running low on hot water 
    is to have the bottom element or thermostat go bad. Keep in mind that hot 
    water, just like hot air, rises. That's why the cold water pipe gets warm 
    until someone turns on a hot-water faucet.
    
    	The fact that the heater was "rewired by the previous owner" is
    indicative that a problem existed with the heater. It is fairly common
    for the bottom element to blow, especially if you calcium in your
    water.

Clearly what is needed is a 'catastrophic flow valve'.  This would be a
water meter with an adjustable setting connected to a valve.  If more than
X gallons of water flows through the CFV within Y minutes, the value would
shut and remain shut until reset manually.  Such a device would be best if
it did not require electricity to run: it ought to be possible to power it
off the water flow.  

One would connect this device into the cold water input to a hot water
heater and set it to shut if more than say 80 gallons flew by within a few
minutes.  One would set it so that it would never shut during normal
operation.  It would be nice because when there was a break in the hot
water system, it would keep a small flood from going biblical.

It would be nice to connect such a device to a house's water main, but
setting would have to be very high.

What do you all think?  Is this a good idea?  Do such dvevices exist?
Should a CFV be placed on natural gas mains so as to reduce fires
following earthquakes?

    I can't even imagine how he could tell, but that is exactly what he 
    said was the problem.
    
    They installed the water heater themselves - it was fairly new.  The
    gas guy checked the thermostat and there is absolutely nothing wrong
    with it.  (The repair job that was botched was in the furnace, not the
    water heater.)
    
    My dad said, "I can't even imagine how they could have botched
    something like this [water heater] up!"  And I said, "Look around at
    the may things they botched up, and it's not so hard to imagine!  ;-)
    
    
    Susan

    	I kind of got cut off in my last reply. The last line should have
    read " if you have calcium in your water." 

    Good suggestions in this note! I too had hot water problems when I
    installed a new gas-fired hot water heater. The prior three I had over
    the past 25 years worked fine. Finally I convinced the dealer that it
    must be defective, and the fellow who did the previous installation
    came out an put in a new one. As he was wheeling the old one out, I
    said "stop", grabbed a flashlight, and looked into the hot and cold
    water holes at the top of the heater. I could see everything in the
    tank, and, sure enough, there was NO cold water inlet tube in there. It
    apparently was a manufacturing oversight. It was the first time in 28
    years of installations that the plummer had seen this problem! You can
    bet I checked the new one he was installing to make sure that plastic
    pipe was there!
    
    Oh, the dealer who sold me the water heater at first wanted  me to
    again pay for installation ($135), but I insisted "no way". I had to
    haul out the Warranty and point out that it said installation was
    included during the first year if any problem should occur. The sales
    agreement also had the words "you will not have to pay twice" for one
    of their products. They finally agreed to absorb the charges and were
    going to try to get reimbursed from the manufacturer.
    
    Thanks to this notes file, I knew exactly what to suspect when I ran
    short of hot water!
    
    Don
    

>Should a CFV be placed on natural gas mains so as to reduce fires
>following earthquakes?

	    I think they are.

    
    This title seems to fit my questions.
    
    I currently have a 30 gallon propane fired hot water heater which
    resides in my bathroom.
    
    I want to get a larger (~70 gallon) unit and move it to my cellar.
    My problem is that my cellar has a dirt floor, and is about 5'5"
    in height.
    
    I have been considering an electric water heater as the venting 
    problem will be elimintated and I will be able to put it in the 
    cellar.  I would pour a slab to place it on.  
    
    What else would have to happen?  Add another circuit breaker (?50A)
    and run a line to the new unit.  Is a secondary breaker box at the 
    heater required?  I assume the water heater is hard wired into the
    seconday box (if one is required) or the 'main'?
    
    What would it cost to have the Electric company put in a second meter
    for it?  Where would they put it? (At the heater, outside?) How would
    the power get to the water heater from the new meter?  Would the water
    heater have to be in place with the new wiring waiting at the location
    for the new meter for the Electric Company to connect to?
    
    Thanks....
    
    /andy
    The plumbing is no problem.
    
    Thanks!
    
    /andy
    

Have you figured out how much it would cost to run?  Lots of people in this
notesfile want to go the other way because electric hot water is so expensive.

    
    My options are very limited.  I have a 70 gallon whirlpool spa.
    A 30 gallon propane hot water tank.  A 5'5" cellar.  (I require
    18" in addition to the height of the hw heater for proper venting
    of the heater.)
    
    I have no room upstairs for the hw heater (I am putting the washer 
    and dryer in the bathroom.)
    
    I could build a closet for it upstairs, but it would take up part of
    my living room. (Too much!)
    
    I need to go electric, it is just a matter of how cheap I can do it.
    
    /acb                       

    You can buy a propane-driven tankless hot water heater.  THis will heat
    your hot water on demand and does not require a tank. I did this as I
    could not get a hot water heater with a tank large enough to fill my 
    whirlpool tub. 
    In fact, I have a 30 gal. tank plus the tankless heater - this way I 
    always have hot water when I turn on the tap and the tankless heater
    picks up the slack when the tank empties.  Talk to your propane
    dealer..
                                     
    

    
    
            Since you have a dirt floor in the cellar, is it possible to
            dig out a spot for the hot water tank. Dig down 24 inches,
            remove enough dirt to provide an adequate area for the tank and
            service space. Then firm up the base with cement or brick.
    
            Just a thought
    
            Mike
    
    

    
    	I'd have to build an inside wall and go up an extra six inches
    	or so, but if I ever had a leak, it would fill it right up.
    
    	Also if it is anything like my current water heater, it would
    	be a real bitch lighting the pilot and maintenance in general.

    
    
    	You would dig out enough space to service the tank,
    	and a dry well would handle and water leak...
    
    	Just a thought ...

    
    	I'm open for ideas.  I'll check the feasibility tonight.
    
    
    	thanks.......

        I have a gas water heater the  "pops" when the furnace lights up.
        The  poping  noise  goes away for a few weeks after the tank  has
        been  drained.  Any ideas to what is causing the poping noise and
        possible solution(s)?

I looked through several notes in this conference dealing with converting to
electric heat and did not see this particular topic addressed.

I am considering converting from electric heat to oil-fired FHW in my condo.  I
have been advised to eliminate the electric hot water heater and instead have an
oil furnace installed that has a coil specifically for heating the hot water I
use for bathing, cooking, laundry, etc., in addition to heating water for heat. 
The installer says I can save as much as $75 a month on my electric bill.

Well, during the months when I don't use the elctric heat, my electric bill runs
anywhere from $45 to $60 (so I'm certainly not going to realize the savings
claimed by the installer).  But I am more concerned about the *amount* of hot
water I'll have if I convert to heating by oil.  I am very satisfied right now
with the electric hot water heater.  I have three kids (who have finally reached
the age where they *like* to take showers) and we've never run out of hot water.
(I do nearly all my laundry in cold water and don't use the dishwasher.)

When I first moved to New Hampshire, the house I lived in had one of these oil
furnances with the hot-water coil.  We never seemed to have enough hot water and
finally installed a propane heater.  (Unfortunately, propane is not an option at
the condo I live in now.)  But perhaps the oil furnances have improved a lot
over the last 15-20 years.  The installer says he has this type of oil furnance
in his home and he and his family can take back-to-back showers with no hot
water shortages.  He also said the recovery time (if I do run out of hot water)
is much quicker with old than with electricity.  I must say I am attracted to
the idea of one furnance because I don't have a heck of a lot of space in the
basement.

Should I convert fully to oil or keep the electric hot water heater?  Does
anyone who has gone through a similar conversion care to comment on your
experience with the hot water supply?

Another question: How bad is the smell from the oil tank?  My daughter's bedroom
is in a finished part of the basement (adjacent to the area where the oil tank
will be).  Do modern oil tanks give off much odor?  Should I plan to enclose it
somehow?

Thanks,

Val

    89  NEWVAX::KELLY        12-MAR-1986    57  Tankless Hot Water
   496  NFL::GIRARD          22-OCT-1986    22  Tankless Hot Water System
  1949  TRACTR::WHITNEY       5-FEB-1988    22  Tankless HW from FHW and Effects
							of Water Quality
  2386  AKOV13::MATUS        12-JUN-1988    14  Tankless, Amtrol water maker,
							or stick with electric?
  3080                        7-MAR-1989     1  FHW-tankless heater?
  3476  VMSSPT::TCARR        11-SEP-1989     4  Tankless Hot Water - comparing
							different brands
  4178  FDCV07::MARINO        4-APR-1991    21  Luke Warm Showers from Tankless
							Water Heater

    When I first moved into my condex we had a problem with not enough hot
    water. My oil furnace is the same age as the house (8 years old) and I
    discovered that you can change the temperature of the hot water by
    adjusting 2 valves located adjacent to the furnace. One of the valves
    controls the flow of water while the other controls temperature. By
    playing around with them, I found the right mix for what I needed. It
    ends up being a trade off between water prssure and temperature.
    
    
    
    Mark

re: .2

	This has all been covered extensively in the existing topics.
	As we all know by now :-), the hot water coming off the boiler
	is VERY hot, and it's mixed with cold water (using a mixing valve
	with the adjustment control you refer to) to cool it down to
	the conventional domestic hot water temperture.

	And of course the main difference between a "hot water on demand"
	system vs. a tank system is that the latter can provide a large
	volume of hot water over a short time (such as running 1-2 showers,
	dishwasher, etc at the same time), while the former provides a
	smaller volume of hot water but for an unlimited time.

I plumbed my electric hot water heater so that when the oil furnace is
on, its tankless 'hot out' feeds water into the 'cold in' on the
electric heater. When the furnace is off (i.e., during the warm
months), valves are switched so that normal cold water goes into the
electric hot water heater (from the same tankless 'hot out' line, but
it's not hot). All hot water in the house comes from the 'hot out' on
the electric hot water heater.

That way, I have this large thermos bottle of hot water that really
doesn't run much (if at all) during the winter and I don't burn oil
during the summer.

Pete

> I plumbed my electric hot water heater so that when the oil furnace is
> on, its tankless 'hot out' feeds water into the 'cold in' on the
> electric heater.

	I believe this also has been discussed ad naseum in existing
	topics on this matter ...

> That way, I have this large thermos bottle of hot water that really
> doesn't run much (if at all) during the winter and I don't burn oil
> during the summer.

	Why don't you want to burn oil in the summer?  With oil prices
	as low as they have been at least the last 3 years (and getting
	lower if you watch the stock market) it doesn't cost much to
	heat hot water via oil.  I bet you it's cheaper than electric.
	Especially when you consider with an "on demand" tankless coil,
	the boiler (nit, it's not a furnace :-) in the summer is only
	going to run when there is a call for hot water.  A tank type
	water heater is going to run whenever the water temp. drops below
	a threshold unless you also have a timer on it to not run certain
	hours .......

	Also even the way you plumbed it, your electric HW heater will
	still run just as much as it would have before (assuming you've
	got the same water temp. set for the thermostat on the electric
	HW heater and the hot water coming off your tankless coil)
	because when the hot water isn't being used, no new hot water
	will be fed into your hot water tank, and it will of course start
	to cool .......

re: "Why don't you want to burn oil in the summer?  With oil prices as
low as they have been at least the last 3 years (and getting lower if
you watch the stock market) it doesn't cost much to heat hot water via
oil.  I bet you it's cheaper than electric. Especially when you
consider with an "on demand" tankless coil, the boiler (nit, it's not
a furnace :-) in the summer is only going to run when there is a call
for hot water."

         My furnace runs whenever it needs to keep its jacket at the
         right temperature, not just when there's a call for hot
         water.

re: "Also even the way you plumbed it, your electric HW heater will
still run just as much as it would have before (assuming you've got
the same water temp. set for the thermostat on the electric HW heater
and the hot water coming off your tankless coil) because when the hot
water isn't being used, no new hot water will be fed into your hot
water tank, and it will of course start to cool ......."

         Electric h/w heater is set lower than the temperature of the
         water that feeds it when the furnace is on (no mixing w/ cold
         water at the tankless h/w outlet). Given the temperature
         difference and the insulation on the electric h/w heater, I'd
         bet it almost never kicks on during the heating season.

Convert ?
YES YES YES !!
your best bet is a seperate hot water tank, run by a seperate zone
pump off the boiler. i put this in 5 years ago and got a super stor
40 gal tank. plenty of hot water, never runs out... in the summer
if hot water is not used the furnace does not kick in but once a
day, just to keep it above room temp... (so your low can be turned down
as far as it goes, since the tank will demand if it needs to)

oil odor ?
not from the tank being there, unless theres a leak . :-0

you could always put the furnace in a room to, but give it fresh air..

as said, see previous notes on subject.

>          My furnace runs whenever it needs to keep its jacket at the
>          right temperature, not just when there's a call for hot
>          water.

	Why do you insist on calling your boiler a "furnace"?  You've
	got to use the right terminology to avoid confusion :-)

>          Electric h/w heater is set lower than the temperature of the
>          water that feeds it when the furnace is on (no mixing w/ cold
>          water at the tankless h/w outlet). Given the temperature
>          difference and the insulation on the electric h/w heater, I'd
>          bet it almost never kicks on during the heating season.

	No mixing!  What temp. is the water then that comes off the tankless
	coil?  Is your tank rated to handle that temp?  And what happens
	when someone takes a shower after you've done the dishes and clothes
	washer?  Sounds like someone could get scalded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
	(unless you are mixing in cold water at the outlet from the tank?)

re: "No mixing!  What temp. is the water then that comes off the
tankless coil?  Is your tank rated to handle that temp?  And what
happens when someone takes a shower after you've done the dishes and
clothes washer?  Sounds like someone could get
scalded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (unless you are mixing in cold water at
the outlet from the tank?)

         Been that way for maybe 15 years and there has never been a
         problem. I understand the concern, though.

I did find it hard to believe that folks hadn't previously discussed the merits
of heating water with the FHW boiler versus hot water heater.

Thanks for all the info and the pointers to other notes.

Val

        FYI -  I  had  a water softner installed recently and the problem
        when away....           
        

    I'm having a problem (may be 2) with my heating system (FHW by gas).
    Two of the radiators has no heat at all. I did breed the air out 2
    days ago and it work find for a day. Yesterday, it has no heat again.
    I tried to breed the air again, there wasn't any air rushing out. And
    the radiator never gotten hot. I then took a look at the burner and
    found that the presure is low, less than 10 PSI. I have a second
    burner next to it and it register about 50 PSI.  Are these two
    different problems ? What regulates the presure ?
    
    Ken
    

>     I'm having a problem (may be 2) with my heating system (FHW by gas).
>     Two of the radiators has no heat at all. I did breed the air out 2
>     days ago and it work find for a day. Yesterday, it has no heat again.
>     I tried to breed the air again, there wasn't any air rushing out. And
>     the radiator never gotten hot.

	Depending on how the piping is laid out, you may have more than
	one high point with a bleeder valve.  Check all your baseboards
	that have an elbow on at least one end.  BTW, had you drained
	the system and that's why you have air in it?  If so, air could
	be in other places.  I've found it useful after refilling the
	system after having been drained to also open up the drain valve
	that should be right above the circulator pump.

>     I then took a look at the burner and
>     found that the presure is low, less than 10 PSI. I have a second
>     burner next to it and it register about 50 PSI.  Are these two
>     different problems ? What regulates the presure ?

	What do you mean you have two different burners (I assume you
	really mean boilers, as the burner itself doesn't have water
	in it :-)?  In any case, 10 PSI does sound on the low side.
	Most I believe are between 12-15PSI.  You could try upping
	the pressure a bit with the manual override on the pressure
	reducing valve (if that works, then maybe you'll need to replace
	the pressure reducing valve, about $25-30 at Home Depot).
	The other boiler that you believe is at 50PSI, you must be
	reading the wrong guage or reading it wrong (or your reading it
	in units diff. from PSI).  FHW systems are designed to be
	low pressure systems.

    re: .30
    The radiators are not baseboard type. I think they are called the in-wall 
    convection type (?). I believe it is the single pipe system ( both
    suply and return on the same pipe). I have not drained the system ever
    since I bought the house 15-years ago. I didn't know I have to drain it
    periodically untill I read this note file recently. I'm not sure what
    the "high point" mean. The two radiators that don't work are both on
    the second floor and they appears to be at the same level/height. When
    I tried to breed it last night, not air coming out, and no water coming
    out neither. Would that be because, for some reason, there is not
    enough water in the heating system ? This is a tankless FHA system. Do
    you thing draining the system now (water and air) and refilling the water 
    back would solve the problem ?  I think I know where the drain is. It
    is the pipe that has a open end faucet and has a shutoff valve near the
    faucet. Is that correct ? But I'm not sure which is the water supply
    pipe. The system has so many pipes and valves and I'm not sure which is
    the fresh water supply pipe. Any hint to find that out ?
    
    This is a 2-family house. Therefore it has two seperate heating system.
    Hence two burners/boilors. I though the boiler is the large water tank
    thing. This is a tankless system. Is there a boiler in the tankless
    system ? Where is the pressire reducing valve located ? how does it
    look ? and how to increase the PSI ? Is there screw/valve for adjust it
    ?
    
    The two burner/boiler are the same type/manufacturer. All the setting
    are set to the same on both systems. But the PSI reading is 45-50 on
    one system and arround 7-10 on the other. Is 45 PSI way too high?  But 
    that system works normal. Should I adjust the pressure down on that 
    system (if I can find out how to do the adjustment). Will a faulty
    pressure reducing value (pressure too low) blocks fresh water going
    into the heating system even if the water in the system is low ? Is it
    possible because the system is too low on water and just don't have
    enough hot water goes through those two radiators ?
     

>     The radiators are not baseboard type. I think they are called the in-wall 
>     convection type (?). I believe it is the single pipe system ( both
>     suply and return on the same pipe).

	I'm not very familiar with this type.  The only single pipe
	system I know of is steam heat.

	In which case please ignore my previous note as it only applies
	to a FHW, not steam, system.

> The two radiators that don't work are both on
> the second floor and they appears to be at the same level/height.

	It doesn't matter how they appear as gravity ignores appearances :-)

> When I tried to breed it last night, .....

	Well here is your problem, you are trying to "breed" it, not
	"bleed" it!  :-))

> This is a tankless FHA system.

	FHA (Forced Hot Air)???  Tankless means it usually has a tankless
	coil for heating the domestic hot water.

> Do you thing draining the system now (water and air) and refilling the water 
> back would solve the problem ?

	If it's a FHW system, then that shouldn't matter.  If it is
	indeed steam instead then I have no idea either way ....

> I though the boiler is the large water tank
> thing. This is a tankless system. Is there a boiler in the tankless
> system ?

	In both FHW and Steam systems there is a boiler.  Your burner
	is either attached to the side of the boiler if the fuel source
	is oil, or is a conversion to gas, or if originally gas then
	the burners are under the boiler.  The large water tank you
	are thinking of is for domestic (ie. drinking and showering)
	hot water.

> Where is the pressire reducing valve located ?

	it should be located in-line somewhere between (usually close
	to the system itself) the domestic water supply and the
	point that the water gets into the boiler itself (which
	could be directly into the boiler, or into the return pipe).

> how does it look ?

	it will have a tag on it that says what the pressure range
	is, and what the factory setting is.

> and how to increase the PSI ? Is there screw/valve for adjust it ?

	I don't know how to change the setting, if it's even possible.
	However it usually has a "fast fill" feature, a lever type
	thingy, that will override the pressure part of the valve.

	However, if this is a steam system I believe you would have
	something else which is called an auto-filler or something
	that keeps the water level in the boiler filled to only
	a certain level. this is because a steam system does not
	fill up with water.

	If it is indeed a steam system, then I would guess the 50PSI
	is the steam pressure (ie. when the system is operating)??
	If so, then the low PSI on the other system could indicate
	either you don't have enough water in there (your auto-filler
	is not working, or I've even heard some older systems you
	have to manual fill to the right level) to make enough steam
	to increase the pressure (if you have two little water i
	would imagine it could also damage the boiler).

    Excuse me about all the type/spelling errors in note 31.
    It is a tankless FHW system, NOT steam nor air. I see one large, I'll say 
    larger than 1 inch in dia, water pipe that connects to all the branche 
    pipe (smaller) that supply/return to/from the radiators.
    
    It is not a pure gravity system because it has a water pump to pump the
    water thru the system.
    
    Since it is a FHW system, the 7 (or 50) are the water pressure. I'll
    check if there is a tag to indicate what the pressure should be
    tonight. 
    
    Is it possible that both problems (lo pressure, no heat) are due to the
    same source - not enough water in the system ?
     

>     Since it is a FHW system, the 7 (or 50) are the water pressure. I'll
>     check if there is a tag to indicate what the pressure should be
>     tonight. 

	The pressure relief valve (which should be coming right off the
	boiler, not the supply or return lines, should also have a tag
	on it saying for what pressure it activates at.  The pressure
	relief valve setting should be higher than the operating pressure
	for your boiler/system.

	I take it you don't have the installation or owners manual for
	either boiler?  Any idea how old the current systems are?

	I hate to say it, but given that you are even more of a rookie
	than the rest of us, and that we are already into the heating
	season, that you should bring in a plumber.  Or call your fuel
	source vendor (ie. gas co. if gas, your oil co. if oil, etc)
	for suggestions and/or recomendations.

	You could also write more info about the type of boiler, etc
	and post it here as that may ring a bell for someone else here.
	My only boiler experience is on systems no more than 6 years old,
	and my number of years of experience is even less (4 years general
	maint. of my own boiler, and then a new boiler install just about
	1 year ago).  In other words, my advice is only worth as much
	as you paid for it :-)

I can't see how a one-pipe FHW system would work.  Are you sure there aren't
two pipes going to each radiator?

    It has to be a closed loop fhw system. And it sounds like it needs to
    be bled properly. From the earlier description, it sounds like the
    valve on the purge tank was used. The proper way is to run water at
    normal tap pressure thru the entire system.
    
    and yes, the pressure in the system is supposed to be less than your
    normal water pressure. 

> It has to be a closed loop fhw system. And it sounds like it needs to
> be bled properly. From the earlier description, it sounds like the
> valve on the purge tank was used.

	Nope (not at least according to what the noter said).  I thought
	they said they had bled it from the bleeder valve on one of the
	radiators.  Remember that I also pointed out that they may have
	more than one bleeder valve on other sections of baseboard, depending
	on how the system was laid out (such as whether the loop for a
	single floor goes through walls to get from room to room, or
	whether they elbowed it down under the floor and then back up to
	get around walls cleanly).

> The proper way is to run water at normal tap pressure thru the entire system.

	If you mean by "normal tap pressure" the water pressure coming
	into the house from the main, then I'd say you should check
	your sources!  To begin with to do that you'd have to disable
	somehow the pressure relief valve!  And then you'd be VERY lucky if
	some copper piping in your loop doesn't burst (keeping in mind
	that FHW systems use DMV [ie. drain/waste] type copper piping
	that has a thinner guage), or actually you would be lucky if
	that piping blew before a more expensive item (like a previous
	replies expansion tank) did .....

    I, too, can't see how it could be a single-pipe FHW system.
    
    Single-pipe will work for steam, because the incoming steam condenses
    in the radiator and can flow back to the boiler as water over the same
    path (provided the pipes are correctly sized/pitched). An all-water
    system can't do that.
    
    ...tom

    re: 34
    No, I don't have the manual for the boiler. 
    
    This was what I did on Friday night: I traced the supply water valve and, 
    I think, the pressure reducing valve. Opened the water supply valve a 
    little bit (it was completelyclosed), and turned the adjusting screw on 
    the pressure reducing valve counterclockwise 180 degree. Turned the 
    thermostate up a bit to kick in the heating cycle. I saw that the
    pressured came up from about 7psi to 15psi. Waited a little while, and 
    it appeared to stay within that range depending on wheither the system
    is kicked-on or not. Turned the screw counterclockwise another 180
    degree. Fired up the heat, pressure went up to about 25. Went upstair
    and bleed the two radiators while the system is on. Got some air out from
    each radiator, then some cold water came out, and finally some hot
    water came out. Went down to the boiler and shut off the water supply
    valve. I've been monitoring the system over the weekend. Both radiators
    has heat. And the pressure stay between 10 t0 25 psi (the tag on the 
    pressure reducing valve says 12 - 25 psi range). Appears that the problem 
    is fixed now.
    
    re: 35
    Yes, there are two pipes, smallar in diameter, going to each radiator.
    They both are branched off a single main pipe, larger in diameter, which
    carries both the supply/return water to/from each of the radiator. And
    this is called (at least that's what the book says) single pipe system. 
    There are systems that have two seperate main pipes, one for supply and one 
    for return and is called two pipe system. 
    
    Although I am a rookie, but I do read/study the materials before I 
    actually do any work. Isn't this the spirit of DIY's. With some
    intelligence, some research/reading, some helps from this note file,
    and willing to learn and to work, I think we all can fix a lot of minor
    problems that the pros can do.
    
    Thanks for all the replies.
    
    Kenneth

    Well as the owner of a single pipe FHW system, I can tell you that it
    is not intuitively obvious how it works, but it does.  The system
    consists of a fairly large diameter pipe that makes a single loop from
    the exit point of the boiler, around the perimeter of the house,
    through the pump and back into the boiler.  So how does heat get to the
    individual rooms?  Well for each room there is a tap, a simple 90
    degree tee fitting on the main pipe, with the leg of the tee going up
    to the baseboard.  There is another tap, and here is the key,
    downstream of the first tap that is not a simple tee, but rather a
    venturi tee.  The flow of water past this venturi creates a low
    pressure, and high velocity, area at the point where the return from
    the baseboard enters.  It is this differential in pressure that causes
    the water to flow up and into the baseboard.  
    
    Is it better than a convential system?  Beats me, it was in the house
    when we bought it and it's the original system, installed in 1959, so
    it's not "new" technology by any means.  Disadvantage is that zoning is
    a bear, I'm planning to rip it out and redo it so that I can zone the
    house properly.  Right now I have one zone, the whole house.
    
    Ken
    
      

    Re: .40
    
    I've been assuming that by "single pipe" people mean a single pipe 
    going to each radiator, not an inlet and outlet as you (and I) have.
    

> Disadvantage is that zoning is
> a bear, I'm planning to rip it out and redo it so that I can zone the
> house properly.  Right now I have one zone, the whole house.

	Actually with the system type you have I believe you could
	make each room it's own zone!  You'd need those motor/solinoid
	driven valves for each room, a themostat for each room, and
	a new control unit.

    Oh, that makes more sense.. you really do have a separate supply and
    return, it just doesn't look like it.. 
    
    (in a sense, a 'standard' FHW system only has one pipe, too; it's a
    ring just as you described.)
    
    anyway, are you saying that the pressure varies between ~10 and ~25 PSI
    as the system operates? Sounds like a bad/waterlogged expansion tank.
    My FHW system used to bounce around between 12 and about 25 (cold ->
    hot), but after I replaced the expansion tank it never gets above 15..
    which I think is how it's supposed to be..
    
    ...tom

    RE: .42 zoning a one pipe system
    
    It could be done like you said, but the real problem that I have is the
    fact that it's a very large pipe (~2 inch diameter) and with all that
    water it takes forever to get the first heat up to the baseboards. 
    Also, since I'm planning to remodel the basement, and the pipe was
    NOT hung with that in mind, I'm resolved to having to remove it.  
    
    It's sort of like the domestic water supply, they hung the lines down
    so far you can almost bang your head on them.  Of course my water system
    must have been the final exam for some apprentice plumber considering
    the number of elbows that were put in for no good reason other than to
    show someone how well they could solder!
    
    Also, the basement is naturally sectioned off for a useable area,
    and a utility area, so where did they put the boiler, yep right smack
    dab in the middle of the useable area next to the fireplace, and then
    have to jury rig up the flue pipe to go around to the back side of the
    chimney.  YOu have to wonder what people were thinking when they did
    things like this, come to thing about it there's a note in here
    somewhere with those kind of stories.
    
    Ken  

    To .37
    
    And, yes, I check my sources very carefully. A FHW closed-loop system
     is bled using system pressure. 
    Since the boiler valve is opened as part of the proper
    draining process, the pressure never builds and system components are
    not at risk. 
    
    You might check your sources before making accusations.

    re .37, .45:
    
    I think there may be a conflict of terms here.. 
    
    "system pressure", as I read it, is not "line pressure" (= tap-water
    pressure). When bleeding a FHW system, you have the valve in the
    make-up water system open, but you also leave the regulator functioning
    (e.g. don't flip up the lever). The regulator admits make-up water to
    keep the system pressure up as you bleed (~15 psi). 
    
    Bleeding is not a cataclysmic event. When you first fill the system,
    you override the feedwater regulator to get a reasonable flow into the
    system, but you also leave a valve open somewhere to let the air out in
    copious amounts. After you finish the fill process, you reset the
    regulator, close the venting valve, and let the system burble.. then
    you let the accumulated air out of the system through the bleeders, in
    small amounts, without overriding the regulator or opening any drain
    valves.
    
    for example, my system (and probably most systems) are valved to allow
    you to fill the system by forcing the incoming water through the
    radiator loops to the drain valve (by closing the valve between the
    circulator and the boiler inlet). This gets the vast majority of the
    air out (if done correctly), but isn't "bleeding".. If you tried to do
    this to get the risidual air out, you'd probably end up with more air
    in the system than you started with. 
    
    ...tom

>     And, yes, I check my sources very carefully. A FHW closed-loop system
>      is bled using system pressure. 

	You didn't say "system pressure", you had said "tap pressure"!
	A *VERY* big difference.  The difference that if someone had
	followed would of damaged their system!

>     Since the boiler valve is opened as part of the proper
>     draining process, the pressure never builds and system components are
>     not at risk. 

	Again you left out this "critical" info (along with the typo :-)

>     You might check your sources before making accusations.

	You might want to re-read your notes for typos after posting
	as my accusations were justified given what you had written ...

	Didn't see a note for smelly hot water... so this is it.

	Last summer, the place where I live had to go to a dug
	well because our surface well went dry.  It seems now that my 
	hot water heater and the water heater in the unit next door 
	has smelly hot water.  With all the backfushing of the system
	that went on while the water systems were worked on, we're
	assuming that all sorts of backflush got into the system. 
	The hot water (only) has a strong sulfer (rotten egg) smell.  
	The system has been flushed once, and that helped for about 2 
	weeks.  We'll flush it again, but we're going to put bleach 
	in the water this time to kill off whatever nasties are 
	there.  Does anyone have a better idea than bleach for this
	problem ?  What would be the mix of bleach to water, or any
	other substance to water ?

	thanks - M

    if you have electric H/W, chances are it's due to a tank component
    reacting with minerals in your water.  many electric tanks have
    magnesium rods in them ... i don't remember the technical details
    anymore, except that getting rid of the magnesium rods solved the
    problem.
    

re .531:

Is it only the hot water that smells?

There are some interesting notes on bleaching wells in this conference that
describes the procedure and amount etc. to get rid of sulfur smells.
Look in well related notes.

re .532:

That may help but beware that the magnesium rod is there for a reason, to
prevent corrosion of the tank.  Without the rod the tank may not last very
long..

    	See note 58.67 for starters. Note 58 is the well topic.
    
    	Ray

    yeah, i know the anode is supposed to prevent "tank corrosion".  i've
    had mine out for over 10 years with nary a problem; most of that is
    overhyped, IMO.  i haven't seen a burnout yet ...
    
    then again, i'm the kind of guy who throws away excess screws after
    something goes back together with parts left over ... 8-)

re .535:

How well you can get away without an anode depends on the mineral content
of the water, the pH, the quality of the tank lining etc. etc.  Too many
variables to say whether removing the anode will cause it to fail in a year or
not for another 15+ years.

    agreed.  however, my experience is that when stench vs. burn-thru,
    removing the rod is a cheap work-around.  here in NW Ohio, our water is
    rock hard and full of minerals (iron, lime, ad infinitum).  as long as
    you buy a decent quality unit (e.g. AOSmith) and use a water softener,
    you're pretty safe.
    
    our last heater died after around 25 years.

    back to .531
    
    Ok, the heater has been drained.  The water smells fine, but the
    pressure and quantity of the hot-water appears to be much less than 
    it was.  The drain plug seemed to have a threaded-shaft in the center
    of it that had to come off as well just to get the water to drain. It
    threads back into the unit, counter-clockwise, then the cap (on top of
    this shafted, threaded insert) is a regular clockwise thread.  Can't 
    seem to figure what the center shaft is for.  It is definitely at the
    drain plug.  The brand, by the way, is a Rhemee, 40-gallon. 
    
    Any ideas about the purpose of the center shaft of the drain plug ?
     

    
    I have a LP-fired hot water tank that is less than 1 yr old.  It seems
    like the Temp/Pressure valve has leaked since a month into operation. 
    When the furnace tech was there I asked him why I was leaking so much
    water he said I needed an expansion tank to compensate.  I asked
    another plumber and he said he has seen 100 installations and none
    needed an expansion tank.  I am on So. N.H. Water Co line and there's a
    check valve where it comes into the house.  I replaced the pressure
    valve last week (210deg/150psi) and it went for a couple of days with
    not a drop.  Now it's leaking a little after someone takes a shower.
    The temp control is set in the center of the range.  
    
    Is this normal operation or could the tank be overheating?
    
    Thanks,
                                      

    	It sounds more like a pressure regulator rather than an expansion
    tank is in order. I believe the expansion tank exists mainly to handle 
    the expansion/contraction of the water as it heats and cools in a
    closed system. The pressure regulator maintains the feed water pressure
    going into the system, and the expansion tank helps to maintain it as
    water is heated/cooled.
    
    	On my furnace I have a pressure regulator that has a lever on top
    of it to allow full pressure to pass. The lever is typically raised
    when bleeding air from the lines. If I raise this and close the valve
    used to bleed air, the full pressure will force water out the saftey 
    pressure valve on my furnace. The one on your hot water tank has a 
    similar function to the one on my furnace.
    
    	The only other way I can think of to force water out of a properly
    working safety valve of a hot water heater is if the thermostat is not 
    working properly and the water comes to a boil. This is the main reason
    for the safety valve on the hot water heater.
    
    	Ray

    
    	I need some advice about my gas hot water heater.  This weekend
    the outlet connection seems to have just rotted away causing a 
    major leak and the inlet connections seems to be on its way out
    also.  This tank is only 4 yrs. old.  Are these connections able to
    be fixed or do I need a whole new tank?  The tank is guarenteed for
    5 yrs. so hopefully I'll only have to pay labor charges if I do need
    to get a new tank.  Also my tank was wrapped by the energy audit guy
    and the person I called about the leak said it shouldn't be wrapped,
    that wrapping it is a fire hazard? I've never heard of anything
    like that.  He said its ok to wrap electric hot water heaters but
    not gas ones.  We took the pipe that carried the hot water off and
    the threads on the connection were completely gone, of course the
    guy I called blamed it on the city water, I don't think my water is
    that bad.  Let me know what you guys think.   thanks  Sue

    
    
    Time for a new water heater....what's unusual though is that a 5 year
    tank usually last 4 years 11 months and 29 day's. That's been my 
    experience....

i don't know about the leaks, but it is easy to find out about the water.
call your local water department and ask about the pH of the water.
to be sure you get what you want to know, ask about the pH of the water
as it enters the system from wells or a lake or stream, and the pH as it is
delivered to consumers.

if you are here in the northease u.s., the incoming water is probably
quite acidic.  the delivered water is probably slightly basic.
that part of the treatment is intended to prevent the acid in the water from
leaching out the lead in old solder joints.  

the failed joint may be where dissimilar metals meet. these will always
have a tendency to corrode and eventually fail.  one metal will be fine.
the other will melt/rust away.  the installer is supposed to know how to
compensate for this law of nature.

> The tank is guarenteed for
> 5 yrs. so hopefully I'll only have to pay labor charges if I do need
> to get a new tank.

	wishful thinking :-)  if are able to prove it was a manufacturer
	defect, the guarentee possibly will prorate the benifit (ie.
	you'll get a credit for only 1/5th the price you originally paid).

	Also which State do you live in?  If you don't live in MA you
	(or a handy friend) could even do the labor yourself and save.....

    
    	Well, it looks like I'm getting a new tank.  I had the guy who 
    installed it check it and both inlet and outlet connections are
    rotting away and he said he can't fix them due to the top of the
    tank being all rotted inside.  My father was there with him and
    he told my dad that I'll only have to pay for labor, we'll see.
    
    	Gardners water is about the same as most communities with
    city water, shouldn't these tanks be made to handle town/city
    water?  I'll let you know what happens!     Sue
    
    p.s. Having no hot water is definately an inconvenience but 
    getting home and having NO water, due to the road work is
    another problem!

    	Other than applying the pipe tape/dope, does anyone know of
    anything that will minimize the galvanic action between the copper
    fitting and steel threads of the tank itself ? This seemed to be a part
    of the last question, and I don't know of anything off hand to help
    here other than what I mentioned above.
    
    	I know that there is supposed to be some sort of rod that is
    screwed into the tank (gas fired only ?), and it's supposed to somehow 
    minimize corrosion. Perhaps this rod needs to be replaced every year or 
    so in this application ?
    
    	I know that it's living on borrowed time, but I have an electric
    hot water tank going on about 15 years now. It receives an annual
    draining/cleaning, usually as a result of an element replacement. To
    have one go in less than 5 years sounds like a royal PITA.
    
    	Ray

>    	Other than applying the pipe tape/dope, does anyone know of
>    anything that will minimize the galvanic action between the copper
>    fitting and steel threads of the tank itself ?

I have heard a brass fitting between the copper and the iron works for
this (although counterintuitive, as it's yet another dissimilar metal)

I have seen large industrial water systems done this way (iron main pipe ->
brass body shut off valve -> copper pipe)

-Mike

    
    	O.K. So now I'm getting a new hot water heater, is there any way
    to extend the life of it?  Maybe the draining thing or some sort
    of filters?  			sue

"the draining thing" will help, as will periodic replacement of the 
sacrificial anode rod (which I think tends to be for electric tanks, not
gas.)  But no matter what you do, most standard heaters will last 5-10 years
at most.

				Steve

    Re .546:
    
    There are plumbing fittings especially designed to isolate two
    dissimilar metals to prevent galvanic action from corroding the
    pipes and/or fittings.  The pipe tape/dope won't help any because
    a good part of the threaded mating surfaces will break through
    the tape/dope resulting in metal-to-metal contact.

    OK, so can anyone suggest what the average homeowner can look for to
    get some warning before the little bleeder craps out?
    
    Dick

there are really only two feasible approaches to handling dissimilar
metals.  one is to not let them come in contact.  as mentioned earlier,
tape or any sealing material will not do it.  some places allow
plastic pipes.  a section of plastic can keep the materials apart.
check your wiring before you try this approach.  water pipes are
often used as electrical grounds.  the plastic section breaks the path.
method two is to add a third, sacrificial, material. that is the 
sacrificial anode mentioned in an earlier reply. 

No warning other than the puddle on the floor.

			Steve

     One thing I'm considering, for the next time my water heater
    craps out and bleeds all over my finished basement carpeting,
    is installing the new unit in one of those shallow pans that
    are sold for washing machines. 
     They usually have a drain outlet that you can hook a garden
    hose to and run to a floor drain.
     But what I have in mind, since I don't have a floor drain, is
    putting a moisture alarm in the bottom of the pan. At least the
    bloddy thing won't be piddling all over the place while we're 
    sleeping upstairs.
    
    Bob

>      One thing I'm considering, for the next time my water heater
>     craps out and bleeds all over my finished basement carpeting,
>     is installing the new unit in one of those shallow pans that
>     are sold for washing machines. 

	The pan is called a drain pan :-)  I just bought one for the
	laundry area in my rental since it's on the 2nd floor.  Cost
	$17, and 10 ft sections of 1" PVC is only $2 (and around 50 cents
	each for each fitting, sadly HD only carries pressure rated fittings
	for the 1" pipe size).  The $17 for the pan includes a threaded
	male PVC piece, plastic washer, and nut (the other end is a 1"
	solvent weld connection).

	However there is no sense getting the bigger (and square) drain
	pan for a washing machine, they (including HD) also sell drain
	pans for hot water heaters (ie. they are smaller and round).

    After reading through this note, I am still not resolved on what path
    to take on a water heater.
    
    I have a tankless water heater.  Enough said.  It appears that I have
    two choices.  One choice is to get a water storage unit that uses the
    tankless as the water heater.  The other choice is the indirect units,
    such as the Boilermate and SuperStor.  These, of course, do not used
    the tankless.
    
    From a $$ point of view, the water storage unit is the way to go.  It's
    significantly less money and I use the tankless that's in the boiler.
    This seems too easy to me.  Is there anything else I'm trading off by
    doing it this way, as opposed to capping it off and going the indirect
    route?
    
    tnx,
    
    Chris

You can use the tankless coil with a BoilerMate - that works fine if you
already have the coil and that's the way it was set up at a former house I
owned.  The BoilerMate type products have a lifetime guarantee on the tank.

			Steve

>     But what I have in mind, since I don't have a floor drain, is
>    putting a moisture alarm in the bottom of the pan. At least the
>    bloddy thing won't be piddling all over the place while we're 
>    sleeping upstairs.

According to Murphy's Law, it'll go when you're away on vacation.

    
    
    According to Murphy's Law, it'll go when you're away on vacation.
                                                    ^^^^    ^^^^^^^^
    
    Can't afford them, I work for DEC.  ;^)
    
    
    bob