Conference 7.286::home_work

    	My oil line is above my cellar floor. It is uncovered at this
    time. Any suggestions on how to cover it so kids, animals, etc.
    don't trample it??
    
    

Most oil lines I've seen are usually covered with something that looks like
mortor, but I think it's probably something different.  The person mentioned
in the original note said that chemicals in the concrete react with the copper 
tubing and should not be in direct contact.

-mark

    Most furnace installers cover the exposed oil line with Sakrete
    sand mix. They make a mound about 4 inches wide and 2 or 3 inches
    high over the oil line that is lying on the floor.
    
    Nick

    Another suggestion would be to install a 3/4" black plastic jacket
    pipe under the concrete floor. Then run your 3/8" supply line through
    the plastic pipe. If your supply line starts to leak it will show
    up as a small puddle at either exit point of the jacket pipe.
    Replacemet of the leaking supply pipe can be performed by simply
    sliding out the damaged one and slipping in a new one. Having the
    supply line under the floor is good for protection reasons and makes
    for a better finished floor. 

    HOW ABOUT HAVING YOUR OIL TANK SPLITING OPEN ALONG THE
    SEAM.THAT HAPPENED TO A NEIGHBOR JUST MONTHS AFTER HAVING
    THE CELLER FINISHED OFF.THE OIL MAN COULDN'T FIGURE HOW
    300 GAL. OF OIL COULD FIT INTO A HALF FULL STORAGE TANK.
    THIS TANK WAS IN THE HOUSE FOR 20YRS.
                                        LOU RAYMOND

re: .3

I had always thought that stuff looked like sacrete, but assaid before, my
friend said NOT to imbed the line in concrete!  perhaps the chances of leaks
are small enough so as not to worry.  he did say that if you're running the
line underground (which he would NEVER do after his experience) to encase it
in some kind of insulator.  Response 4 sounds pretty classy to me!

-mark

    	How about this one for the DEQE!  I have have a 3000 gallon
    in the ground oil tank.  When I bought the house I checked with
    the DEQE on the matter as well as the feds about regulations ect.
    And they said that you are liable for any enviromental damage and
    will have to do as your friend in the base note did.  They suggested
    I get the tank pressure tested which will cost me up to a grand
    to do.  But they also said it is not a requirement as of this date
    to get it tested when selling the property but this may change.
    Instead I went to the tank manufacturer and got some history of
    these type of tanks and life expectancy under what conditions. 
    I found that this tank in a sandy soil, which I have will out live
    me.  So, although I am taking a chance with a potential spill and
    cost of clean-up I feel confident it won't breakdown.  I just wanted
    to confirm all that was said in the base note as true about liability
    for enviromental spoiling and the cost is on you.
    
    
    						Jorge'

< Note 267.0 by LYMPH::SEGER "this space intentionally left blank" >
                     -< if you have oil heat, read this! >-

> Well, this friend's oil line did indeed leak and after getting it replaced with
> an above the ground type of connection, he got a call from the DEQE (sp?).  It
> seems that some 250 gallons that spilled under his floor caused environmental
> damage.  To make a long story short, he had to jack hammer up a 3X3 foot piece
> of cellar floor, haul out over a ton of contaminated soil, pack it in 55 gallon
> EPA approved drums and ship it out of the state to a toxic waste dump!  Then
> he had to fill the hole and fix the floor. 

With out being nosy or anything, how in the heck did the DEQE or EPA ever find
out about this leak?

This same problem happened to my family maybe 8-9 years ago.  We simply cut off
the old line, ran a new line on top of the pad and buried it with a mound of
hydraulic-patch.  Worked real well, though we didn't frequent the boiler room.
We must have dumped 100s of gallons of oil over the years that it was leaking.

rep

 >With out being nosy or anything, how in the heck did the DEQE or EPA ever find
 >out about this leak?

I believe when the oil company came in to fix the problem that THEY called DEQE!
One would guess (and probably hope), that law would require them to report any
potential environmental hazards.

-mark

    Strange,how the poor homeowner that this happens to gets stuck with
    the cleanup bill,while the Companies that collect it can cause real
    pollution then claim bankrupcy and get out of footing the bill to
    correct the problem.
    
    Perhaps some of the "superfund" money should be allocated to the
    homeowners that this happens to (there really can't be that many)
    after all, pollution is pollution.
    
    	Steve
    
    

    So, what happens over the years, if you have copper tubing feeding
    the oil burner, the copper tubing is just covered with cement. Will
    the copper tubing corrode and fall apart?
    
    Dave
    

-mark

    Our builder, sub-contracted the OIL tank and OIL burner installation
    out.   They simply ran copper tubing from the tank to the burner,
    along the floor and against the foundation wall, and covered it
    with what looks like cement.
    
    Since, this sub-contractor only installs tanks and buners for a
    living, and uses this method it must be a common practice.
    Also, doesn't someone have to examine the installation, and OK it
    before the builder can sell you the house.  I would hope they would
    not sign the ??? permit (or whatever its called) if the copper tubing
    and cement connection is dangerous.
    
    Does anyone know if the OIL tank/burner needs to be OKed, or am I getting
    my permits mixed up ? 

      I would call the fire department on this one.  In Mass., you at
    least need a permit for oil storage.  This permit is required by
    the fire department at time of installation of the original tank.
    I don't know what they do about the furnace itself tho.  You might
    need a permit from the building inspector.  I know you need a permit
    from the building inspector when you add a wood or coal stove but
    I don't know who checks out the furnace installation.  If you don't
    see the permit displayed, call the fire dept. to find out if in
    fact it was applied for.  
    
    -Jim
    

>    Our builder, sub-contracted the OIL tank and OIL burner installation
>    out.   They simply ran copper tubing from the tank to the burner,
>    along the floor and against the foundation wall, and covered it
>    with what looks like cement.
    
I think this was talked about in this conference (or somewhere else -
I can't remember).  In any case I had the same question when it was done
in my house and found out they do this in all new homes.  In the olden
days they used to bury the lines in the floor - nice and neat.  Now,
with the fear of pollution from leaking tanks/lines they lay the copper
pipe and cover it with some cement so if the line ever starts to leak it
will become obvious to the homeowner (assuming he/she sees it) that something
is leaking - i.e. it will leak on the floor, not below it and into the
ground.  There still is the issue of how neatly they lay the cement.  In
our installation they just slopped it over the pipe and it looks like crap.

As for inspection I do beleive it is the fire marshal who blesses the 
installation.

-peter

AAARRGHH!!!! I just discovered this has happened to me. The other
day, I smelled oil around the furnace. I opened up the shroud (I
have one of these old jobs with an enclosure around the burner and
controls) and found the floor wet around where the oil line comes up
out of the floor. I did a bit of excavation (the concrete right
around the line was pretty soft from the oil) and found the cause:
Just under the surface I found a compression fitting splice in the
line. I can't #^@&^#@&*$#^ believe the bozo who installed this would
do such a thing!

The question now is, what to do (other than install a new oil line).
The leak, in this case was up near the surface, and it hasn't been
leaking very long - a few weeks at most, so I suspect I probably
have no more than a couple square feet of oily concrete. Is it worth
the bother of hammering it out, or should I just put the plastic and
finish floor (plywood, etc. on sleepers) back and leave it? The
floor slab is exposed inside the furnace shroud, and it would
*slowly* evaporate through there.

    Does anyone have their oil tank outside, above ground?  I have an
    underground tank.  Someday I thought it would be better to replace
    it with a tank next to the house, surrounded by an enclosure to
    match the house.
    
    One problem I suppose would be very cold oil in the middle of the
    winter.
    
    Any experiences?
    
    __Rich

                The majority of the houses in North Framingham and a few
        other areas of some other towns effectively do this. The oil
        tank is installed in the garage on the outside wall. It can get
        below freezing in these garages depending on how well the garage
        is insulated from the house and if you left the door open. The
        major problems seem to be freezing of water in the tank
        (condensation) and the crud that forms on the oil/water boundary
        (it's actually an algae!). Either one can plug the oil line or
        inlet under the right conditions. However, it is done; and all
        the drawbacks can be dealt with a lot easier than an underground
        leak that goes undetected!
                
                /s/     Bob

A problem with an outside fuel tank is that fuel oil will begin
to jell at some temperature (mind gets foggy with age). Mobile
homes in general use kerosen because of this probblem. I think
the temperature is in the -15 deg F range. This of course is in
addition to any water or moisture you may havein you filter.

    HELP
    
    I just had my drive way paved this fall, and today using my snow
    blower spilled OIL all over the drive.  
    
    Any of you out there have any suggestions as to what I can do besides
    call the EPA.
    
    I've come up with:
    
    	1.  Spread Kitty Litter on it the sweep it up.
    
    	2.  Using A liguid soad to dilute it and let the melting
    	    snow take care of it.
    
    	3.  Leave it alone.
    
    	Thks in advance for any help.
    
    
    	Don
    
    

    Go to an automotive supply store and get some stuff to absorb the
    oil....kitty litter is useful but get the real thing here.  Spread
    it around, then sweep it up.
    Ric

    The kitty litter idea will collect the majority of the oil. Assuming
    that the oil is on the driveway and not on top of the snow, just
    spread it on the oil and let it absorb it. Then sweep it up and
    dispose of it. Garages use this method regularly.
    
    Eric
    

    If it is on blacktop, you may also try brushing in some "goop",
    lletting it sit for a while and washing it off.
    
    Sears also sells some liquid stuff for this puirpose.
    
    Bruce

    i've found the best way is to get some "speedy dry" any automotive
    supplier will carry it. spread it over the soiled area and work
    it in with your shoes or boots. grind it right in. what your doing
    is crushing the small pellets, into a finer dust which will get
    deeper into the stain. spread more pellets on the area about 1/4"
    thick. let it sit for a day or 2, sweep and dispose of. this
    spring, or now if you'd like, mix up a batch of spic and span
    (read the box) and mix according to the "floor wax removal"
    formula, and as hot a water as you can get from the tap.
    use a scrub brush, or wahtever and wash with the solution 
    thoroughly, rinse with a hose. if you do it now you'll hardly
    see it come spring time.  keep the balance of the speedy dry
    around for fudture use. p.s. i've done this at least 15 times
    in my driveway, i think i'll patent this process.
    
    jim.
    

    
    
    	Why don't you go to a hardware store and buy some driveway cleaner
    that is made just for those problems !
    
    	-Steve-
    

I'm about to convert my heating system to gas, and am left with a perfectly
good 275 gallon oil tank. Since we no longer have a dump in my town, I'm 
not sure what to do with it, or how to get rid of it.

Anyone have any ideas on how to dispose of something like this? I'm sure 
that other noters must have experienced similar problems - can you comment
on how you handled it....

Perhaps someone might be interested in a free tank? It's easy to access 
through a walkout cellar. It's located in Westford. 

Send mail to CIMNET::MURRAY

Dave

    
    
    your heating contractor should be able to remove it for you as part
    of his service, if not call the oil company and have them take it.
    Theymay charge you a small fee such as oil in tank plus a few bucks
    but it is worth the price of getting rid of it.

    I got rid of my tank last year.  I called several oil companies
    to see if they'd be interested in taking it -- including the 275
    gallons of oil in it.  One wanted $100 to remove and dispose of
    the tank, plus $35 per hour to pump out the oil.  No credit for
    the oil. I ruled out this option.                           
                                                            
    I located a pump, bought 150 feet of garden hose, and made two
    oil-burning neighbors very happy. I looked in our local paper 
    (Maynard Beacon), and called a "Man with a Truck."  He charged $35
    for removing the tank and getting it on his truck, and a $40 surcharge
    because the tank is hazardous waste. He said that he was taking
    it to a disposal site in Tyngsboro. I thought that $75 was an ok
    deal. 
    
     -- Joe
      

    Getting rid of oil is tough -- there is a fuel-assistance program,
    set up by Joe Kennedy, which will come and pump out the old oil.
    I believe it's called "People's Energy", but could not find such
    a listing in the Boston White Pages.  I called them for a similar
    problem, they send an oil truck to your house, pump it out, and
    give you a receipt for your tax-deductible contribution!
    
    I was able to get the company that removes trash every week to take
    the tank for $40 or so, but he made it clear that this was an 
    accomodation to a good customer.
    
    The company that installed the gas furnace -- and was willing to
    remove an old gravity hot air "octopus" furnace -- refused to
    touch the oil tank.

    Try the advertisement section. I had to buy a replacement tank once.
    I would have considered a used one.

Re: .2  >>  located a pump

Where do you find such a thing?  I have an oil burning neighbor two 
driveway widths away.  


Re: .3  

Its Citizen's Energy, not People's Energy.   I called them and they 
don't do that anymore, seems it wasn't cost effective.

    HAVE YOU GOTTEN RID OF IT YET? IF NOT, I MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN
    TAKING IT. I'LL TALK TO MY PLUMBER OVER THE WKEND. I'M BUILDING
    A NEW HOUSE.

If the one in the previous notes is gone, you can have mine, with the 
oil still in it. 

Karen

    WHERE IS IT LOCATED? I'LL CHECK WITH MY PLUMBER OVER THE WEEKEND
    AND LET YOU KNOW. THANKS.
    
    ED

I was looking to buy a house with a 2K gallon oil tank, and the
owners said taht mid-summer is generally the best time to buy.
Sorry that I can't be more explicit.  I called their oil co.,
who said they gave a 4%-6% discount for volume deliveries.
I presume most oil co.s will do the same - try asking.

	Larry

PS - They also said that they recommend against these big tanks...
because then people buy all their oil in the summer, when it's cheap!

    I can tell you what our oil's costing in Leominster for
    a 150-gal. min. drop:
    
    We <were> paying .899�/gal with East Side Oil.  Deduct .03�/gal. 
    for paying within 10 days.  That dropped the price to .869�/gal.
    
    Found out that Rollstone (and Cleghorn) Oil is a LOT cheaper.  
    Rollstone charges .88�/gal, but deduct .10�/gal for paying within 
    7-10 days (i can't remember if it's 7 or 10 days...).  That brings
    the price down to .78�/gal.
    
    Figure it as approximately $25.00 saved per 275-gal. fill-up.
    
    My <GUESS> is that on the volume you're looking for, you're
    probably <still> best calling Rollstone or Cleghorn.  East Side
    will probably still come out too expensive even in volume...
    

    I have a 2000 gal tank, and I'm still burning 42�/gal oil, purchased
    in August of '86.  Cleghorn Oil is your best bet.  Last time I got
    sucked in to buying from Port Oil, since they quoted me a lower
    price.  When they delivered two days later, they found out that
    Cleghorn had gone up, so they went up on the price, too, and refused
    to honor the price they had quoted to me.

    I found that Cleghorn, Port, and Fratacelli Oil [all Leominster area]
    tend to match each other in price.  Volume discounts take off about a
    penny a gallon for each 200 gallons, up to some limit, but this varies
    from time to time.  Because of my experience with Port Oil, I'll never
    go back to them if the competition matches their price.
    
    For some reason, this area consistantly has the cheapest fuel oil
    prices around (I've heard its the cheapest in New England).  I have
    no idea why. 

    
    Do you people with 2000 - 3000 gallon tanks actually FILL the thing
    or do you get a years worth?  3000 gallons would be roughly a 5
    - 6 year supply for me (and my small house).  Seems like you'd be
    tieing up a lot of money ($1500 - $2000) to save a few cents a gallon.
    How have you made out?  How much do you figure you really save figuring
    in the interest that money would have returned in a safe investment?
    Just curious.  My 275 gallon tank is plenty big for me!
    
    Phil

    OK, I've only filled it twice.  Once when we first built, at .69/gal,
    which lasted a few years (oil soared to well over $1/gal during
    that time - I felt pretty good about that).
    
    Then, in the summer of '86, as mentioned -.2, at .42/gal.  How much
    have you paid for oil this winter?
    
    With 3 kids creating lots of laundry, and taking half-hour showers,
    we burn a lot of oil just to heat water, so I'm going about 1000
    gallons a year now.  Still, 1000 gallons @.42/gal = $420 for heat
    (2600 sq ft of living space) and hot water for a year isn't too
    bad.

    
    In addition to Cleghorn, try the Gardner oil companies, too (there
    are many).  Early last fall, I paid 68 cents per gallon after the
    pay within 10 day discount.  You should be able to do better than
    that with such a large tank.
    
    I wish I had a tank like yours.  That would be about a year's
    worth for me.
    
    -tm
    

    I think oil prices are dropping.  We just paid 62.9 (with discount)
    from Fred Fuller in Hudson, NH.

    Two months ago we paid 78.9.

    George

    Wish I could find oil anywhere near as cheap as some of the previous
    price quotes, I live in western Massachusetts and my last quote
    for oil last month was 92 cents a gallon with a 4 cents per gallon
    discount if bill is paid in 5 working days.
    
    						john
    

    	The merits of a large oil tank are having the option to wait
    for the best buying time, having the security of a few years worth
    of oil, buying at volume discounts and when you make such large
    purchases of anything it's a completely different outlook on your
    budget.  When we bought the house it was on agreement that the previous
    owner would fill the tank.  He bought for .38 cents a gallon injuly
    of 86 from Cleghorn.  Now I have plenty of oil to last me another
    year or two but would like to get some while the getting is good.
    Budget-wise I look at it like, "what will I do with my tax return
    money this year?-I'll get oil! and won't have to worry about it
    for another few years.  Also with heating my water to it gives me
    the feeling of a great way to save money or alleast not pay
    outrageously to the electric company every month.  I know this is
    an illusion but it does feel good.
    
    					George Ardini

    What are the current EPA or Mass DEQE regulations about inground
    tanks?  Gas stations are now required to pressure test at least once
    per year.  Have they started picking on the little guys yet?
    					=Ralph=

    Re .10
    
    Don't have the specifics, but a friend of mine just bought a house
    near Fall River that had an in-ground tank and he had them remove
    it BEFORE the sale.  He's a PHD in Chemistry with an extensive
    background in the environmental area and felt the potential exposure
    (ie liability) was to great since he'd be legally responsible if
    it leaked, etc.  I think there was also some issue since the 
    previous owner hadn't secured proper permits for the installation
    and the fines/penalties would accumulate daily and were big bucks.
    
    If you can't get specific info on the DEQE or EPA regs, feel free
    to send me mail and I'll check some of the specifics with him.
    
    Evelyn

    
    
       According to the regulations, underground or above ground
    tanks used at a residence (or business for that matter to a
    certain limit) are exempt if they contain heating oil for
    consumptive use on the premises.  Existing tanks are also
    exempt from registration to the Fire Dept.  Aside from
    heating oil, new tanks have size limits for registration,
    and are suppossed to have secondary containment (again, the
    regulations seem to exempt what a homeowner would have).
    Local towns and cities may pass more stringent regulations,
    so you should check with the F.D. anyway when doing a new
    tank installation.
    
    It was probably a good idea to remove the tank, since there
    was no idea of the condition, and the way the regulations
    are tightening year to year, the liability.
    
    Your local Fire Dept. is always the best source for information
    pertaining to your community.
    
                                                        Mark
    

    
    	Any more of these things begging for a new home ?
    
    	Reg	{thinking of a wood/oil furnace}
    

    If you're willing to come to Chelmsford, have I got an oil
    tank for you! It also has oil. Tank seems to be in good shape.
    Converted to gas last fall.
    
    

seems we have a run on these.  Add mine to the list !!!
It's in Maynard.

Karen 

    
    	Gee, if I could just find an empty one to START with :-^)
    
    	That could go on the trailer, I could then go onto the second
    house and pump out their tank to the first one.  The second one
    could then be carried out to the trailer and I could move on to
    the third house where I would,,,,,,,etc.
    
    	Reg
    
    

    	My landlord offered to give me a used oil tank  I called a
    	few oil companies in the Worcester area to find out how much
    	it would cost to have it hooked up.  I found only one company
    	that would even consider hooking up a used oil tank - one guy
    	pretty much hung up on me.                             
    
    	I did get one of the decliners to explain why he wouldn't 
    	do the installation.  He said that if the tank were over
    	five years old (just as a rule of thumb) that it would be
    	dangerous to try and move it.  Just as in your car gas tank,
    	water condenses in your oil tank.  The water is denser than
    	the oil, therefore it sinks to the bottom of the tank.
    	The water causes the tank to rust, and as this happens,
    	sludge builds up on the bottom of your tank to prevent it
    	from leaking.  When you drain and move a tank, it is possible
    	to upset this delicate balance.  For the oil companies, the
    	risk of having to clean up an oil spill outweighs the profits
    	made from installation;  well, that's my guess.
                                
    lg
    
    
    

Ok, I thought of a really creative solution for getting rid of the 
remaining oil.  Now, I'm really pleased with myself for pulling this 
off, but I'm sure if there are any holes in it, someone in this file 
will find them and let me know ...... :^)


I called the oil co. and they wanted no part of pumping out the 
oil, even if I would give it to them.  If I persisted, they would 
charge me to do it.

Now, who is good at getting things done for free?  Charitible / Non 
Profit organizations !!

So, I called the Pastor of our church.  I told him I would happily 
donate the oil, if he could arrange to get it to the church.  Next 
thing I knew (2 days later), the church's oil co. called me and said 
they would do this.

I started this in May, hoping to hit the slow time for the oil co.  
After persisting, they finally pumped it out this week, and brought it 
to the church.

So the way I look at it:

I got rid of my oil, and get a tax write-off.
The church gets free oil.
The oil co. gets a tax write-off for the expense.
The environment wins because the oil was used, not disposed of.


BUT, if you live in Maynard, while I'm sure that St. Bridget's would 
appreciate more oil, I don't think Dunn Oil (absolutely no relation) 
would do this again.

I have to give them a lot of credit.  They gained the least out of 
this.  I had to be patiently persistent since they had a very good 
summer season (solar installation) and finding the time to do this was 
difficult.  It took longer to pump out than they expected.  I figured 
they agreed to do it becasue the Pastor called and asked.

So, I recommend Dunn Oil for the 'good doobie' award of the week..

Karen

I'm actually writing this for a friend.  She has an underground tank she wants
to get rid of and replace with an above ground tank.  The only problem is where
to put the tand since she doesn't have a basement.  The furnace is in the 
oversized garage and there is probably room for a tank but the oil person told
here that's a no-no.  Is that really true?  If so could she partition off a 
furnace room room and cover it with fire-code sheetrock?

When she asked about putting the tank outside she was told this is also a no-no,
presumably due to condenation.

Has anybody faced this before?

-mark

    
    My mother has one outside in CT. It's surrounded on all four sides
    by concrete blocks. I had to run heat tapes with a thermostat for
    the winter to prevent fuel gelling.
    
    I don't know about MA code, though.
    
    CdH
    

    Permissible locations will be dictated by the local building code.
    Logic has nothing to do with it :-).
    
    pbm
    

    Is there any reasonable relationship between the price of home
    heating oil and the quality of the oil.
    
    I have been price hunting and have found prices ranging from
    67cents/gallon to 84/gallon.
    
    Pat

    When I first started using oil, two years ago, I found prices
    ranging from $1.12 to .72 per gallon.  It turns out that when the
    differential is that great, there usually is a SERVICE included
    in the price, (such as winter start-up, cleaning, etc). Hence,
    the comparison is really apples to oranges.
    
    In you case, 67 to 84 cents is probably JUST a difference in pricing
    on their raw oil.  The oil quality is most likely the EXACT SAME
    STUFF!
    
    Mark

    You may find the cheaper oil has a requirement, like 100 gallons
     minimum and they only take cash on delivery (and they only deliver
    to your area on every 2nd Wednesday).  They may not have emergency
    contingency, either, so if you run out they may not come out and
    give you enough to get your through to your next fill-up.  But I
    would hazard a guess that fuel oil is fuel oil, and agree with .1
    that's it's the service that you are paying extra for.
    
    Sarah
    

    	In the Greater Boston area all the #2 heating oil comes from
    the same tank farm in Revere (or is it Lynn?).  The tankers carry
    the oil from the refinery to the storage tanks.  The delivery tanks
    all line up at the same tanks to get the oil to bring home and sell.
    Don't worry about oil brands, look for a good price on the oil and
    a good service company.  They are not always available at the same
    place.
    					=Ralph=

    There seems to be a sort of price war here in the Western part of
    Ma. My wife called around for oil a couple of weeks ago and got oil
    for $.53 per gal. I have a 1000 gal tank so she was able to get
    a break on the price. The last company she called, asked if she had
    called anyone else and when she said yes they asked their price
    and beat it by $.02,and it was delivered that afternoon.
    
    btw our oil comes from New Haven, Conn. 
    
    Jim
    
    ps the delivery man also poured in a half gal. of additive to keep
    the oil stablized. I have always done this in the past, but he did
    it for free.

    Hi!
    
    I've got a problem that I hope somebody out there can help with!
    I've read all the other relevent note entries. in this conference,
    but none of them really apply.

    I've got a 40year old forced air oil furnace.  I've now learned
    it has a cracked heat exchanger.  I've decided to replace it with
    a new forced air gas furnace.
    
    The problem is - what do I do with the oil tank?  It's apperently
    a double 250 gallon tank  (I say apperently because it's buried
    in the front lawn!  8-))
    
    I'm getting confusing information.  
    
    1) The oil company will pump it dry, but then suggests that the
    tank must be removed FOR ENVIRONMENTAL REASONS.  They say condensation
    can form and deteriorate the tank.  
    
    If there's no oil, what's the problem? Even if the tank does collapse,
    what's the problem (environmentally, or otherwise?)
    
    2)  The gas company (who won't touch the tank) suggests filling
    the tank with sand.  (By the way, HOW the H*LL do you put sand into
    the tank, anyway!?!)
    
    
    Why should I do this?  Do I need to FILL it, or is just SOME  enough?
    
    If I leave some oil in the tank, will this do the same as the sand?
    (Even if we negate the cost factors).  Isn't this just common sense?
    There's been oil in this tank for 40 years, so if it didn't collapse
    after that, why would it collapse now? (Even if there is no furnace
    attached).
    
    Any help or information you can provide will be helpful.  
    
    
    Thanks in advance!
    
    
    Dave Gendron
    

    Environmental reasons aside, if local code allows filling it with
    sand I'd do that.
    
    Imagine the thing corroding and collapsing just as some kid walks
    over it. Now imagine that the kid's father is a lawyer...
    
    Sand is so much cheaper than liability...
    
    Edd

You better give you local building inspector a call. In some towns
(Medfield for one) you have to pump the tank dry and then fill it with
concrete! That town wants all underground, residential tanks removed!

So call the inspector and find out what's required, then decide what
you want to do.

VCS

    Do it according to the rules.  If you don't and anything goes wrong,
    the cost could be horrendous.  DON'T leave any oil in it!  If it
    every leaked and it got traced back to you...do you have any idea
    how much cleaning up an underground aquifer costs?!?  Your kid's
    college education at Harvard would be cheap by comparison.  Personally,
    I'd pay to get it dug up and hauled away.  
    If the fill-with-sand option is acceptable to whoever passes judgement
    on such things in your town, that would be maybe $30 worth of sand
    and one mindless Saturday shoveling sand down a 2" (or whatever)
    hole.

    I filled up my father's old underground gasoline tank last year. 

    First, I pumped as much gasoline out as possible. I used water to
    get the remaining gas out. To make this work you need two pieces 
    of pipe screwed into the top of the tank. One pipe must be about 
    3 feet higher than the lower one. The lower one must come up out 
    of the tank and have a 90 degree bend in it so as to act like a 
    faucet. In fact, I did put a faucet on the lower one.
    
    When you add water to the taller pipe the gas or oil will float
    on top of the water and run out of the lower pipe. I placed the
    gasoline in a container. The water that now was in the tank I
    pumped back out into the town sewer system. 
    
    The tank was buried about two feet under the ground, so I uncovered
    some of the top and used a sawzall to cut a one by two foot hole 
    in the top. Before actually cutting the hole in the tank, I wanted
    to be sure that sparks from the electric motor of the sawzall
    didn't ignite the gasoline fumes that still filled the tank. So, 
    I hooked a vacuum cleaner hose up to the exhaust of my pickup and
    filled the tank with vehicle exhaust. 

    If you can't get all the oil out and fill up the tanks with sand,
    I would advise you to have the tanks dug out. Leaving the tanks
    in place without properly dealing with them is a lawsuit just
    waiting to happen.

    A year after I took care of my father's tank a neighbor up the street
    found gas in their water and started pointing their finger at my
    father's old underground tank. My father's tank didn't cause it,
    but that is another story.
         

    Thanks for all your help, folks!
    
    We've checked with the local inspector (as suggested) and they said
    that, although many people just bury their tanks, it IS against
    the law, and the tank should be pulled out of the ground.
    
    I REALLY appreciate your helpful comments.
    
    'Tanks' alot	;-)
    
    
    
    Dave

    Good point about being wary of explosion if you try to cut into
    the top of the tank.  There used to be a large brick garage in
    Portland, Maine, owned by an oil company that they used for their
    tank trucks.  One day a guy was welding on an empty truck...the
    largest piece of the truck that they found was the front end of
    the tank, and the brick garage was GONE.  It became a vacant lot
    covered with bricks.  I don't know if the truck had carried oil
    or gasoline, but I would be very careful about cutting your tank,
    if you decide you need to.

    
    
    I would remove it plain and simple.  You have knowledge that the
    tank exsist.  There are state rules (MASS) that require removal
    of all un-licensed (over a certain gallonage) of any type of fuel
    tanks.  DEQE finds out they'll have a field day with you....It's
    not worth the aggrevation in the years to come.  You did not indicate
    whether you had a gas line available.  If not (depending on location)
    of the new pipe before digging to install new gas pipe the gas company
    or contractor will have to call "Dig safe" before they start, the
    could find out about the tank and have you remove it prior to their
    digging.
    
    Bob

    The problem is finding someone who will remove the old
    oil tank.  Does anyone know of anyone who will remove an
    old underground tank?  I live in the Burlington area.
    
    Jeanne
    
    

<    or contractor will have to call "Dig safe" before they start, the
<    could find out about the tank and have you remove it prior to their
<    digging.

	DigSafe will not know if you have an oil tank, where it is located
	nor the location of the pipes.  Dig Safe is only responsible for 
	locating _public utility_ right-of-ways.  The owner is responsible 
	for locating any private services(Oil Tank, well and septic).

	Brian

    I had to have two tanks removed. Used Zecco in Northboro.

RE: < Note 2806.10 by CAMILE::BRACKETT >

What do they charge for removal.

    $4200 for a 3000 gal and a 6000 gal tank. They are located on the
    other side of town ie travel time = 2 miles. Their removal and proper
    disposal is required by state/federal ? law and is monitored by
    the EPA. Second quote was for $7500. Forgot the name as soon as
    I hung up th phone :^)
    
    _Bill

    I just wanted to again thank everyone that responded to the questions
    asked in .0, and to tell you the conclusion of the story.
    
    We took the 'remove the tank' advise.  Got together with 4 guys
    (they used to be friends, anyway  ;-)).  We dug around the tank
    as best we could.  Then we removed the pipe connections to the house.
    
    Realizing we couldn't do any more ourselves (realistically), we
    called a tow-truck.  The tow-truck hitched up the chains to the
    tank, lifted it out of the hole, and set it in front of the house!
    Done.
    
    Total cost:
    			$ 10 for lunch
    			$ 20 for beer
    			$ 75 for tow-truck
    			$  6 for pipe-wrench rental
    			----
    
    			$111  to get the whole job done! 
    
    BTW - It might have also cost me 3 friends, but I don't think so
    								;-)
    
    
    Dave

How are you going to get rid of the tank?  That's a non-trivial part of the 
job.  (See notes 237 and 2079 for other people's experiences).

Paul

    I'm considering installing an oil burner in my house (I currently
    have electric heat), and I'd like to do some of the work myself.
    I'm told that one of my biggest obstacles, of all things, is
    finding an oil tank.  Has anyone heard of any problems obtaining
    oil tanks?  Does anyone know where they're relatively easy to
    come by?
    
    Thanks,
    Jon Patt

I think if you look through the file, you'll find a LOT of people trying
deperately to GIVE THEM AWAY!   Be careful though!   Even though the 
tank may be perfectly good where it is, thats no guarantee that it will
still be ok when you get it to your house.   Agitation of an old tank 
can make it almost useless, and then YOU'LL be the one trying to give
it away!   (Costs mucho dollars to have it TAKEN away and disposed of 
properly.)   Call the oil company you are planning to use.  Many will
not even hook up an old tank.

Bob

I had a similar situation, I was in need of a tank.  I looked 
around for people who have converted from oil to gas and still have 
the tank.  The past noter is absolutely correct, old tanks are hard 
and costly to get rid of.  Supposedly you need a permit just
to transfer the tank. [...why of course I obtained one ;-| ]

The installation process isn't really hard just messy, especially with an 
old tank.  The other problem I had was people who said, "sure I have a tank, 
come get it, it's yours," three out of the four tanks I went to get STILL HAD 
OIL IN THEM!. You can't move a tank with oil in it, even a little oil, too 
heavy.  If you have the equipment you can pump it yourself, or should I say, 
you better pump it yourself because the oil company's can't be bothered. 
[at least the one's I tried to deal with]

Good Luck!

Bill
                                                            

    Thanks for your suggestions.  Actually, I'd prefer to find a new
    one.  I notice there are outfits in the general region that sell
    "tanks" (not sure which kind)....  Does anyone know of any particular
    company that deals in oil tanks?
    
    Thanks
    Jon
    

    Just curious:
    
    How much/which work do you intend to do yourself? Do the new baseboard
    heaters fit exactly, or do you have to rework the molding? What
    is your anticipated cost/payback? What are the electric heaters
    and thermostats worth? (or do you have to pay to have them taken
    away?  :^)                           
    
    I'm considering doing the same thing.

    
    A general question:
    
    Since the old tanks rust out, are the new tanks made of fiberglass? 
    I've heard that a lot of gas stations are replacing there buried tanks
    with fiberglass tanks.  Has this trend extended to home fuel tanks?
    
    Phil

    RE:6
    
    General answer..Yes  I was given that option by my oil company.
    From what I understood you do not get a new fiberglassed tank, your
    old leaking tank is fiberglassed.  They will only fiberglass from
    the middle down, they won't do the entire tank.  Still this is costly.
    $250.00 to 300.00 was the quote to me.  Yet it is still better than
    a $500.00 new tank installation.  Also, you can not order the
    fiberglassing yourself, must be done through an authorized source,
    your oil company.  My comments may have some holes in them I didn't
    fully research the fiberglassing option, I opted for the "find an
    old tank."    
    
    Bill

    How long would the fiberglassed tank last?  Depending on the life
    expectancy of the old tank with fiberglass, it might be worth the
    extra $200 to get a brand new fiberglassed tank, instead.
    
    Ed..
    

    Slummerville Lumber says that they sell 250 gallon oil tanks for
    $189.  I asked what they're made of and they said 'cast'.
    I assumed that meant cast iron, but maybe they meant cast plastic.
    

    
    RE: .8
    
    Fiberglass should last a *long* time, as long as you don't take
    a sledge hammer (or tool with similar funtion) to it.  It has the
    added advantage of being lighter, so it would be easier for you
    to move it.
    

    Jon,
    
    I just finished changing my home from electric to FHA... and needless
    to say, it was well worth it.  You can buy the tank and gages right
    from your oil company... they dropped mine off right at the front
    door for 195$!!!  A word of caution!  It is not worth getting a
    used one! 
    
    Give me a call if you would like to chatt about it... I might be
    able to give you a few ideas about furnaces etc.  
    
    Brian Jorgensen
    dtn 241-3540

    RE: .1  "fuel gelling"
    
    I have an external oil tank in Mass. that is completely exposed. I
    can't see surrounding it with concrete blocks but I have wondered about
    enclosing it with rigid foam and exterior plywood.  Is it really
    worth doing?  Did you put heat tapes around the whole thing, or
    just the line going into the house?
    
    

    
    You should check with your town building inspector beore building
    anything. Hers had to be built with concrete due to local law. It
    wasn't for insulation value.
    
    CdH
    

    I just found this note and would like to add my .02.
    
    If you are going to convert, make sure you look into the largest
    tank you can find.  I have a 1,000 gal. buried and I buy oil
    1x a year.  Last August I paid something like .69/gal while my
    neighbor with the std. 275g paid .90+/gal.
    
    My tank is metal and I'm beginning to worry about rust out.  It
    was suggested to me to have Zecco come over and do a pressure test
    to see if it leaks. (typical for a 15+year tank).
    
    If you go this way, you may have to get a special permit from the
    town to "store" fuel, like gas stations.  Also, if it makes sense
    to bury it, don't be suprised if the new rules state you gotta first
    make a cement "tub" to put the tank in to hold any leakage which
    may occur.
    
    This may seem like a lot of trouble, but if you plan to stay in
    the house for any length of time, it's financially the only way
    to go.  I use 800 (nominal) gallons every year for heat and hot
    water - it's my only heat source for 1,600 sq. ft, always occupied
    house.  I estimate that having the 1,000 gal tank has saved me a
    minimum of $2,000.00. (difference between "spot" market and dealer
    cost.  Plus, my basement has 24sq.ft more room since the critter
    is outside.
    
    Whatever size you choose, make sure you get only a fiberglass tank.
    All the metal ones will rust out - eventually.  The fiberglas ones
    are thick walled and can take a certain amount of bumping so don't
    worry about cracking.
    
    I've seen fiberglas tanks of various capacities in the Grainger
    catalog.  Also, one of the best places to find information
    about who sells what is your site's purchasing department.  They
    all have the "Thomas Register" as well as regional "Industrial Buying
    Guides", sort of a local version of the Thomas.  The issue I have
    has 10 pages of tank suppliers & manufacturers.  It's a great reference
    source.
    
    Hope this helps you with your decision.
    
    Kevin
    

       My brother works for Zecco. From what he tells me the new fiberglass
    tanks installed at gas stations are double-walled. Between the
    double-wall is a conductive gel with transducers placed at strategic
    locations. The theory being if a leak develops an alarm is triggered
    before the actual outside skin is breached. I'll have to ask him
    if a tank like this is available for a houseold oil tank.
    
       Bob

     ME TOO
    
    WE HAVE AN OIL DRUM ALSO AND WOULD LOVE TO HAVE SOMEONE 
    
    TAKE IT AWAY.
    
    ANN

    Checked keyword HEATING-OIL, and found no topic related to this.
    If the topic exists elsewhere in the conference, I'm sure Mr Mod will
    let me know.


        Was puttering around in the basement last night, and noticed that
    our oil tank has a leak.  Theres a small pool of oil on the basement floor,
    and the bottom of the tank above the pool is wet with oil.  Its not a large
    leak, yet.  The tank was filled about 2 weeks ago.  We have FHW heat and
    tankless domestic HW run off oil.

        Questions:

        1.  Can a leaky oil tank be fixed?  If so, can it be fixed without
            draining the tank?

        2.  If it cannot be fixed, what would be the cost to have it replaced,
            including the cost of getting rid of the old tank?  Will the oil
            company pump the tank?  If so, will they re-imburse me for the oil?

        3.  If the cost of #2 is high, I have the option of converting to
            GAS heat.  Commonwealth Gas already told me they would install a
            gas conversion burner free, with a monthly rental charge.  For
            HW, I'd have a gas fired water heater installed.
 
            What are the pros and cons of going this route?

    
      The existing oil fired boiler is 13 years old.  The oil burner is probably
      the same age.  So replacing the burner would not be a great loss. The
      tankless HW has been satisfactory, but I'd tend to prefer a tank, if it
      was run off gas.  (I wouldn't care for an electric one, I believe they're
      more expensive to run.)  The only time the tankless HW has been a problem
      is in the winter, when the system calls for heat AND hot water at the same
      time, and the boiler temp is at the low end of its range.

      Thanks for all comments.

      Steve

    Ummm... are you sure it's a leak?  We have a small "pool" of oil
    underneath our tank as well, about 2" in diameter.  It formed the last
    time the tank was filled.  Basically, when they pumprf the oil into the
    tank, the pressure used to fill the tank resulted in some oil being
    forced out through the joint at the top of the tank, down around the
    outside of the tank, and then onto the floor.  Check it out....

Nope, no prior note.  But check out note 267 (Which I just retitled to make 
more sense), which is about a leaking underground oil line.

Paul

    
    
    	Yes, a leaky oil tank can be fixed.  When I moved into my house
    	3+ yrs ago, I too had a 'weeping' tank.  Lucky, I was covered
    	under the previous owner's policy w/ the oil co.  I guy came,
    	pumped ou all of the oil, sawed off all 4 legs, turned the tank
        upside down and procedded to fiberglass and bake the entire
        bottom of the tank.  It was full day job...hasn't leaked since.
    
    	Plus, I was told that the fix is more reliable than buying a
    	new tank.  The oil co, BTW, was Noar's in Worcester.
    
    	Jeff
    

    I would encourage you to check for the exact location of the leak.
    (.1) gave a possible source, also check around the filter and valve;
    I would first wipe all the wet bottom surfaces dry and watch for
    about a week to ensure the source of the leak, maybe you'll get
    lucky and find that the filter or feed line needs tightening.
    
    If you need to junk the tank, and you want to do it yourself I
    would suggest the following.
    
    Catch the drip in a container that you can use to pour the oil
    back into the tank as frequently as needed; in the meantime let
    the normal consumption of oil lower the tank to a few inches from
    the bottom. While this is happening over say the next two months
    (?) get yourself another tank from someone who is converting to
    a heat pump or some other energy source - these conversions are a 
    great source - or buy a new one. The empty tanks can be handled
    by two (healthy) people, with a third being a plus; move the old
    one out of the way and replace it with the new. Remount filler and
    vent pipes, filter and fuel line to the new tank plus the residual
    fuel.
    BTW, kitty litter is a good absorbent for fuel oil.
    

re                      <<< Note 3400.1 by TALLIS::DUTTON >>>

>    forced out through the joint at the top of the tank, down around the
>    outside of the tank, and then onto the floor.  Check it out....

        What "joint" are you referring to?  If its the joint where the filler
        and vent pipes connect to the tank, I checked, and there was no oil
        that came out of there (no residue seen)  Or, maybe you mean the joint
        where the side length wise and width wise sections of sheet metal are
        joined?  

   
  Re .4,  Thanks for the advice.  I checked with my oil company, and it would
      cost 600 bucks have the tank replaced, including labor and disposal of
      the old tank.  I'm keeping any eye on it--it seems like to leak has 
      subsided.




   No one answered the other part of my question--what are the pros and cons
   of having the gas company put a gas coversion unit on my existing oil boiler?
   The oil guy says that the efficiency will be poor, but I've seen ads by the
   gas co that they can get 80% efficiency on these things......The gas co would
   do this for free, and I wouldn't have to pay 600 bucks for the oil tank
   replacement.  Also, I'd like to have a gas fired water heater, instead of
   the present tankless setup.  HW has been fine, but we will soon be hooking
   on to town water, and with its higher water pressure, I expect that the
   performance of the tankless water heater will be degraded.

  Steve

    re gas conversion tradeoffs:  lots of heating technology comparisons
    have been done in this conference, probably including this one. 
    1111.47 should lead you to an existing discussion if it exists, or to
    an existing topic  onto which you can tack this specific question. 
    Let's keep this topic focused on leaky oil tanks, please.
    
    				DCL, moderator

    re: .5
    
    >	What "joint" are you referring to?
    
    You checked it, I meant the joint where the filler and vent pipes
    connect to the tank.  That's the source of the little spill that we
    had.  There wasn't much of any residue in our case, either (except on
    the floor :-).  In any case, good luck.

    I converted to gas about four years ago and never regretted the
    decision. My old tank always dripped a little oil; probably they
    all will from the fill-up process. If your system is 13 years old
    you probably still have years of use left. But the $600 you think
    you need for a new tank will go a long way towards a gas burner.
    
    

    
    
    I was thinking of starting a new note to keep track of recent oil price
    quotes, however, I found this one, and it looked like a good place to 
    do it.  
    
    I haven't bought Oil since the week before Christmas, at that time I 
    paid $1.22/gal.  Can anyone enlighten me on the current price of oil,
    has it gone down as the experts claimed it would?  I'm most interested in 
    suppliers in the Gardner/Leominster area.  
    
    /Jeff
                                               

Can't speak to your area, but yesterday's local paper had a oil 
co. advertising for 1.02, Port in Andover.

daryll

       Port Oil in Leominster was $1.13 yesterday. They're all within
    a few cents of each other. I wouldn't switch suppliers because of
    a few pennies. If there ever is REALLY a shortage, these guys will
    take care of their best and oldest customers first.
                                     Denny

One place on Rte 12 near the Leominster/Fitchburg line (Fratacelli I believe)
posts oil prices outside his building.  Take a look whenever you go that way.

-Mike

    
    More than looking for the best price, I'm interested in timing my
    purchase..  I have a combination Oil/Wood furnace, so by delaying the 
    need for purchasing oil till mid-February by burning wood on the
    weekends I could save some coin.  Only problem is that burning wood is 
    a pain in butt.  
                   
    /Jeff

re .17:

Do you have comments on whether a wood/oil combination is good/bad (besides
the extra work wood requires)?  I need a new boiler and a wood/oil
combination may be an option.

-Mike

    Please post any replies about comparisons of different fuels and
    systems to notes listed in 1111.47.  Let's try to keep the discussions
    on one topic and in one place.  Thanks.

    Bruce [moderator]

    
    
    Why have heating oil prices gone up 30 to 50 cents a gallon
    and gas prices only gone up about 5 cents a gallon ??
    
    I know that there have been spills and refineries blowing up
    but why more impact on heating oil ??
    

    re: .20

>    Why have heating oil prices gone up 30 to 50 cents a gallon and gas
>    prices only gone up about 5 cents a gallon ??

    Remember that heating oil and gasoline, while they both come from
    "crude oil", are different fractions that are present in particular
    quantities in each unit of crude.

    If the free market is working, each fraction will reach its market
    price.  When the demand for one of them goes up, so does its price.

    Since the cold snap caused people to use more heating oil but didn't
    cause them to drive more, oil want up and gas stayed about the same.

    -joet

    
    re:21
    
    oh good !!  then it should follow suit that since we've had
    such a mild January, the price of heating oil should drop
    30 to 50 cents a gallon, just as fast as it rose because of
    the cold December we had !!  right ??  ;^)
    
    po'ed
    
    btw,  your explaination makes "cents" !! I just have trouble
    swallowing it ! I mean it was only 1 month !!  
    

    
    The price may come down.. however, with the colapse of that pier
    blocking the shipping lanes and all, we could be in for another 50 cent
    increase in March..  
    
    /Jeff

    
    
    So what is the going price..  I still haven't purchased any since 
    before Christmas. 
    
    

    
.21>    If the free market is working, each fraction will reach its market
.21>    price.  When the demand for one of them goes up, so does its price.


    And if collusion and price fixing is involved it will go up much more
    than that!  Diesel fuel is obtained from the same fraction of oil
    as heating oil, except that it is much purer than heating oil, and
    more expensive to produce.  Although, deisel fuel generally runs
    at leat 20 cents/gallon higher than heating oil, during this past
    crunch it was generally *less* expensive than heating oil!  Also,
    the extreme rise in heating oil was generally limited to New England,
    which also leads me to believe price fixing and collusion was involved.
        

re .25:

>    more expensive to produce.  Although, deisel fuel generally runs
>    at leat 20 cents/gallon higher than heating oil, during this past
>    crunch it was generally *less* expensive than heating oil!  Also,

Really?  I noticed that diesel prices were running something like $1.59/gal
when oil was $1.35+.  I was curious what the truckers were being soaked
for, and "just in case" it might be cheaper (I doubted it, but I would not have
passed on the chance to get purer stuff for less money)

Now that oil is down to $1.04, the last I noticed diesel was going for
was $1.35 (probably less by now since I don't follow diesel prices)

-Mike (burning lotsa wood to stretch the oil tank)

    I had an interesting call from an oil company trying to drum (no pun)
    up new business.  Apparently they're offering a free 200 gal for new
    customers.  A rep is supposed to come out tomorrow to explain the
    details.  

    	One explanation of the increase in oil prices. The Russians   
    are the major providers of eastEuropean oil. During the past couple
    of months there have been strikes and sabotage of pipelines and
    refineries by unions that were feeling abit uplifted. The mid east
    sold a lot of oil to the eastern Europeans. 
    
    	The US refineries also use trends based on past usage as a guide
    to ordering oil. They didn't expect a majorcold snap and got caught
    short. Supplier had little oil on hand and refineries were running
    at only 80%. The result was a true shortage in the short term. Then
    came the increase in price, almost no natuice rose.
    
    	With US oil pumps in the southwest idle and refineries working
    at less than capacity there is no surplus. The oil companies don't
    want it because inventory is expensive and keeping supplys at or
    near predicted usage keeps prices stable. Sounds queer, but true.
    
    Ken
    to come in when the 

Diesel fuel is more expensive in part because it is taxed differently than
heating fuel, and because it requires additives and freedom from certain
impurities that heating fuel doesn't.

			Steve

    	Okay folks, I live in Gardner and I paid my December bill about
    2 weeks ago and I paid $1.42 PER gallon.  I told the lady in the
    office that if the oil kept going up, that I was seriously thinking
    about converting my heating system.  She said that she had heard
    all the complaints and that at the time I paid the bill, the price
    of oil was coming down.  Here it is the end of January and I am
    do another fill-up.  Gee, I wonder what it will cost this month
    :^)?
    
    	Anyway know how much it would cost to convert from a FHW oil
    based system to a FHW gas based system?  I cannot go to the
    conventional gas system as there are no gas lines to my section
    of Gardner, so I would need a bottled gas system.  Also, IF I were
    to switch over, what is the payback period and is it really worth
    the investment (I can't do it now, but maybe when I hit the lottery
    :-)).
    
    		Paul

    You can, in many cases, convert by installing a "gas gun" that replaces
    the original "oil gun". Mine happens to run on natural gas, but the
    device can be jetted for propane.  My furnace had the gun installed and
    the revised flu ducting installed quite quickly.  It has been running
    very well for 12 years.  At that time, the gas company underwrote all
    but $400 of the cost.  This included digging up the street and running
    the pipes.
    
    Rich

When we last filled up we paid $1.34, but I've seen the same company 
advertising $1.09 more recently.  So prices have started to come down
significantly.

   Gary

We use Haffner's, out of Lawrence, MA, and pay C.O.D. 

Our luck with oil prices, so far: 

nov. 15th = $  .939/gal.; 

dec. 27th = $ 1.149/gal.; 

jan. 25th = $  .919/gal.

Based upon the above, oil seems to be somewhat reasonable again. We did
notice, however, that the starting "late-fall" price was about $ .20/gal. 
more expensive than the previous year.

Also, we have propane gas for the clothes dryer only. Normally priced at
$1.38/gal, our jan. 19th delivery was @ $2.10/gal.......

    
    DATE: Friday, 1/26/90
    
    COMPANY: H.B. Knowles  Groton/Lincoln, MA
    
    PRICE:  $0.999/gallon
    
                              Mark

    I don't think it would pay to switch over to propane from oil.  During
    the last cold snap, propane prices also went up significantly so
    instead of complaining to the oil lady, you'd be complaining to the
    gas lady.
    
    -al

re -.1

	That's putting it mildly. I got home last night and found out that
the latest bottle we had delivered went up $9.50!!! If I remember right
the unit price was $2.09 (can't remember if it was /gal. or /.lb). We 
had been paying $38.00/bottle. Yesterday's was $47.50

	We have a gas range, gas dryer, and gas water heater and use about
a bottle/month. When the water heater goes, I'm buying an oil fired one.

						Mark

    $47.50 a month........not bad. Is that during this last cold snap?
    
    
    Jim

re .38:

Jim,

I don't think they heat with the propane...
I also have propane with a similar bill, and I don't heat with it.

-Mike

    Thanks Mike,
    
    I was thinking that was very low cost to heat their home....
    
    Waste oil heaters...as a matter of fact I'm trying to buy another
    one for the back section of the shop.
    
    Jim

    My last delivery of propane cost me $1.28 a gallon. That was in the
    midst of December's craziness.
    
    Edd

I checked the bill when I got home. I was (thankfully!) wrong about the $2.09.
There was no unit charge on the slip which they left. I'll see it on my
monthly statement.

I wish that my full heating bill was only $47.50!!!

						Mark

    THANK YOU!!! You don't know how much I was sweating my next delivery!!
    
    Edd

    
    I got a delivery yesterday from May & Hally of Groton ...
    
    $.95 per gallon or $.88 per gallon if you pay within 10 days !!
    
    ace
    

    Yesterday, $1.64 a gallon for LP....:^(
    
    Edd

    
    
    Hi
    
    We have an apartment which has approx 1000 square feet which we
    heat by steam radiator.  Within the past two-three months we
    have been going through 150 gallons of oil each month.
    
    We are going to have a service person come out to take a looksee.
    My question is how much oil would one typically go through
    in a month to heat that much of an area?  We are not home
    during the day so the heat goes down to 50 and is kept at
    55 during the night.  Any ideas?
    
    Thanks,
    Michele

    
    forgot to add that the burner is near to 50 years possibly older.
    It is covered with corroding asbestos also.
    
    Mi

        Well, to give you a comparision, we have a large 4 Bedroom House,
        which is kept warm all day, as my wife is at home. It is only a
        couple of years old, and we would be using 120-160 galls per
        month. I would say that you have a major problem.
        
        Our oil company is currently offering special deals on burner
        servicing. (merrimack, NH)
        
        q
        

    There a number of things that may contribute to excessive oil
    use. First, get the burner serviced and make sure it's as efficient
    as it can be. Then, do a thorough check through your house for areas
    where you can be loosing heat.
    
    My house is old, but the burner is relatively new. Every effort I've
    made reduce heat loss has paid off in lower fuel consumption. Some
    things that work for me... insultate the attic, caulk around the
    windows
    on the outside and inside, weatherstrip the windows with something
    good (like bronze weatherstrip), use ugly (but efficient) interior
    plastic storms in the winter, check the basement for drafts under doors
    and around windows.
    
    If you have a whole bunch of small leaks, they can be about the same
    as having a window open all winter.
    
    My biggest saver is the interior plastic strom windows --- 3M makes
    them. I buy the ones designed for hugh picture windows and then cut
    them to fit my windows - can do the whole house for about $25. I 
    probably save that amount in oil in the first two weeks of winter.
    The house feels much warmer and my oil usage goes down by about
    30%...... I know, I need new windows, but plastic is cheaper.

    
    re -1
    
    The house is really old and there are alot of problems with the
    insulation.  However, I do not own, merely rent the apartment.
    Therefore it really is the landlord's responsibility to 
    revamp to be more energy efficient.  We do what we can within
    the apartment such as using the plastic on the windows.
    However, we have no control over the other areas.  I know for
    a fact that the efficency of the boiler that services our
    apartment is terrible.  Physically the thing looks to be in
    terrible shape anyway.  Plus we seem to be spending our money
    to heat the basement and the area outside the windows of the
    basement.  
    
    The reason I put the base note in was just to get an idea
    of typical oil consumption.  In Oct 88 there was a fire
    with our boiler and at that time a person came out to look
    at it.  He said that it needed alot of repairs.  However,
    those repairs were and still are the responsibility of the
    landlord.  He simply refuses to get the thing fixed.  Yet
    we are the ones who are paying for his ignorance.
    
    We started withholding rent because he has not fixed the boiler
    and several other things in the apartment.  He was notified that
    this was what we were planning on doing.  But he still did not
    make any efforts to fix the things.  So we received a notice to
    quit and eventually a summons for trial.  To defend ourselves
    we had the Boston housing inspector come in to do an inspection.
    The inspector found many things violating code along with the
    things we knew about.  Plus the cellar was full of asbestos that
    was crumbling.  
    
    Even after the landlord was given the report requiring him to have
    the things fixed within 5 days that was still not done.  His ignorance
    has now cost him quite a bit of money.  We go to court next
    Thursday to resolve this.  Clearly we will be coming out the winners.
    According to our lawyer his willfull neglect of the housing codes
    are just a small part of the problem.  We will definitely end up
    getting at least three months rent back just because he did not
    stipulate in the lease that we were required to pay for heat.
    We will also be getting rebates of the rent we paid since Oct 88
    due to the fact that the apartment was not up to code.  We were
    paying fair market value of the apartment even though it was not
    "complete" according to the housing code.
    
    So we are trying to get an idea of how much oil/money we have
    poured into this and are able to get back due to the above.
    This is just to help me get a little more information to take
    with me into court.  
    
    Michele

    >> Clearly we are coming out the winners...
    
    Well...  You proved that the house was substandard.  You have
    encouraged him to go to court, whether he shows or not...
    
    You may get money but the case has not actually gone to court and until
    the final gravel sounds, you haven't got a cent.  You have to take time
    to see a lawyer, go to court, wait to have the house fixed, wait for
    payments if you win (which I doubt you will ever see based on the
    decription of your landlord), live with the possbility of health
    hazards caused by substandard housing, pay out money for heating
    unnecessarily, had to suffer in sub standard housing, and more than
    likely he will ask you to move or break your lease.  
    
    He got to use your money while you lived there and did not spend any
    money fixing anything.  He may have to get a lawyer and may lose the
    court case but may skip town or declare bankruptcy and you may never
    see money or him again.
    
    I don't see it as clear as you do.  I do wish you all the best and hope
    that the law makes him pay to fix the house, pays damages to you, and
    pays for your court costs and anything else.  Best of luck
    

    Ditto on .5
    
    Even if you get a decision in your favor, you may not collect anything.
    What happens if the guy just doesn't pay you?  What do you do then?
    Also don't count on getting your legal fees paid for.
    If this is Massachusetts, you generally have to pay your own legal
    fees; there are some types of cases where you can get awarded the
    amount of your legal expenses (which is of course no guarantee that
    you'll ever get the money, it's just a statement by a judge that
    you *should* get the money), but for most civil cases in Massachusetts
    you are responsible for your own legal fees.
    And even if you have an iron-bound, airtight, rock-solid case in
    your favor, you might lose.  There is absolutely nothing certain
    in a court.  Courts have very little to do with being fair; they
    have to do with being *legal*, which is often not fair.
    You will *probably* win, and *probably* collect, but it's far from
    a sure thing.

    Sorry to be a wet blanket, and I hope I'm overly pessemistic, but
    keep in mind that you may lose.

Yet another cautionary note....

DON'T GET COCKY!

If all the information supports you, BRING IT!  Document EVERYTHING!
Substantiate!  As Steve said: Fair is Fair, but Legal is Legal.
Don't get locked out on a technicality.
Keep your lawyer informed, and listen to him.

And remember: Winning isn't everything, it's just the first step.

    
    
    Well we went to court last Thursday.  Waited all day just to
    get the case dismissed.  It seems the landlord did not register
    his house with the Boston Rent Equity Board.  Therefore, the
    house automatically goes back to rent control.  Also, because
    he failed to do this the eviction was illegal.  He needed to
    go before a board to determine if the eviction would be 
    approved or denied.  If it was approved by the board he would
    have needed to file another paper with the court.
    
    So the eviction was an illegal one and was dismissed.  So we
    won on that count.  That also gave us quite a bit of leverage
    in so far as preventing his going through the correct legal
    process to start the eviction again.  We all sat down and
    agreed on the following:
    
    Landlord would automatically give up three months rent due to
    the fact he did not have a written agreement between us and he
    to have us pay for heat.  (this is a little known mass law)  
    
    Landlord would pay for filling oil tank to test efficiency  of
    burner.  
    
    Landlord would pay for efficency test of burner.  Also, if needed
    will replace boiler.  If not needed will wrap burner.
    
    Landlord will forfeit portion of remaining months rent due to
    negligence.
    
    Landlord paid for legal fees for both parties.
    
    We have to move out by August 1 1990.  This was the only
    thing we were upset with, but seeing that we were broken into
    Saturday night for the second time in less than 6 months
    we are not too upset about leaving.  The neighborhood
    is just getting much too violent.
    
    So all in all we did pretty good. All of the repairs have been
    made.  The new boiler is on it's way to being installed (thats
    right -- it is currently sitting in the basement waiting to be
    installed).  We ended up getting three months rent free.  We
    also got a full tank of oil and a new boiler.  As well as getting
    a portion of a months rent free. All of this just due to the
    fact that the landlord would not fix a few minor things we
    asked him to fix.  
    
    
    Guess we were lucky!
    
    Michele
    

    CONGRATULATIONS!!! Sounds as though you did just fine.
    

    Current May & Hally price is $.85 if you pay within ten days.
    
    Steve

    
    This is the closest note I could find for my problem, after searching
    thru 1111.*
    
    I have a large oil stain on my basement floor (created by a leaky line
    from tank to burner) at least 12 feet square, around the boiler. I'd
    like to clean it up to use part of the area the stain occupies for a
    tile floor (on the concrete, away from the boiler area). What can I
    use to clean the oil off the concrete so tile can be laid.
    
    P.S. I just bought the house last year, and the stain was there before
    we bought it, so I don't know how long it has been there...
    
    Fred

    Speedy-dri is available for just this purpose. It's basically clay.
    You throw it on the oil, rub it in, and it absorbs the oil. A few
    applications may be needed.
    
    This stuff is a staple in any garage.
    
    Cat litter works well also.
    
    Edd

    If the stain is really old, the oil may be too soaked into the
    concrete for .10 to work very well, although it's about the
    easiest thing to try.  It might work better if you grind the
    speedy-dri into the floor with your foot.
    If you try that and it doesn't work, I think I'd try a strong
    solution of Spic-n-Span (basically TSP) in water and scrub it
    down.

RE: .9

	If you use .10 suggestion; give it at least a few days to soak up
the stain...... I usuallly give it a week or two......

			Bill

    I use oil dry and a brick to remove stains from my shop floor. I
    use the brick to grind the oil dry into the stain. The clay turns
    to powder and absorbs faster/more.  
    
    Jim
    
    

    If the previous ideas fail, try a product like Gunk - I've successfully
    removed some heavy-duty motor-oil stains in (outdoor) concrete with
    this product.

    I was in Building 19 3/4 in Norwood yesterday and noticed a product
    called "Garage Floor Degreaser" selling for $4.99 for a gallon.
    Probably the same as the Gunk product.  

    
    
    Powdered cement will work well.

    My oil company just offered a new service called "Tank-Guard" which
    claims it protects your oil tank against Rust and Corrosion all
    year long.  This is done once a year for 9.95.  They claim that
    if your tank leaks from internal corrosion while covered by the annual
    guarantee, Lincoln Labs will help pay for repair or replacement
    ($150.00) of the tank.
    
    Sounds good to me, has anyone heard of this, or just another gimmick?
    
    Julie

    Sounds like a scam to me.  What do you put on metal to keep it from
    rusting?  Oil. Whats in your tank?  Oil.  Is the inside of your tank
    likely to rust?  No.  From your reply it implies they will fix
    up to $150 dollars of tank repair *if* it is caused by INTERNAL rust or
    corrosion.  Big deal.  The major expense will be dealing with the cost
    of the hazardous material spill your leaky tank has created.  
    
    You might get some water vapor inside the tank which could cause some
    rust on the upper side of the tank.  How frequently to you buy oil? 
    The longer between fillings, the more free space in the tank not
    covered by oil.  Even so, it still sounds like very little insurance
    and for the wrong thing (tank vs oil spill)

    
    I worked part time on an oil truck for many years........
    
    
    Unless you have a river in your basement, save your money.
    
    
    Lou

RE: .17

	My parents ( bought the house from them) use to use the Tank Guard
stuff in the tank. It did rust after about 25 years. The oil company said
it was guaranteed and had someone come out and re-seal the tank. That company
guarenteed the tank for another 15+ years so I don't use the Tank Guard stuff.

	If I was to do again.... I think I would not bother with Tank Guard.

	At that time it cost about $7 dollors.. 7 x 25 = 175 more than cost of
new tank...

    Bill

ah, I wouldn't use it either for the same reason as -.1, but for what
its worth, oil does float on water, so that condensate does collect at the
bottom of the tank where you really don't want extra holes.  I replaced
a VW gas tank for the same reason once.

I once had to have about ten gallons of water removed from my outdoor,
above-ground oil tank.  The gauge gasket was bad and let rain water into the
tank.  The symptom was that the burner stopped running (I guess water
doesn't burn too well :-)).  I had the tank guard or (something similar) put
in one-time, because the amount of water was so significant.

As .21 said, the oil floats on the water, so the water is always contacting
the same part of the tank, and that part doesn't get an oil coating.

The whole thing was covered under my maintenance contract, so a guarantee
would have been moot.

Well, I opted to go for the tank guard (on my >25-year old tank).  Nine months
later it developed a corrosion leak on the underside, which I plugged with a
magna-patch (proprietary magnet-cum-rubber pad).  6 months later it developed
another leak about 6 inches away from the first.  I installed a second magna
patch and commenced serious discussion with my oil company - a few months later
I got a new tank installed.  Lincoln Labs took an ungodly amount of time in
forwarding the funds to my oil dealer (2-3 months) but the $150 tank allowance
finally showed up.  I don't remember the exact price of the tank, so I can't
discuss the economics of the plan - however, a $10 investment saved me $150
in this instance.  (I do remember that disposal of the old tank cost $50.)
I thought it curious at the time that Lincoln didn't specify an escape clause
such that older tanks were not eligible for the plan ...





    

    Is "speed dry" the stuff to use in removing oil stains that are in the
    
    cement of the garage floor?

    Spee D Dry soaks up the most of it.  After you get to a stain, you can
    try more of the stuff and rub it in with your foot.  This will get rid
    of most of the stain.
    
    A pretty effective product goes by the name of Neutra-Oda (or something
    close).  You sprinkle it over a cleaned up spill and let it set. 
    Removes smell from diesel or gas *and* any stain.  Obtain it at your
    local fuel oil supplier.
    

    Sawdust also works well......cheap too!
    
    Marc H.

    re: .8   Does sawdust work even if the stain is 1 year old and
             I presume is dry?

    Re: .9
    NO
    
    Marc H.

I've found that talcum powder works somewhat, even on older spills.  You can
also buy liquid products which can remove oil from concrete.

			Steve

I use cat litter (fresh from the bag, of course).  Works the same and it's
always available.  'Ol Clumzoid  here is always spilling some sort of liquid  ;-)


Chris

    Seems as good a place as any to ask this....
    
    Has anyone successfully burned waste motor oil in a regular old residential 
    oil fired boiler?  I had heard or read somewhere a recommendation of
    disposing old motor oil by pouring it into the oil tank and burning it. 
    Didn't sound right but it would be a nice way to get rid of used mtor
    oil if it worked.  
    
    Brian

Very bad idea.  Used motor oil has all sorts of metals and other stuff
suspended in it, and burning it in a furnace would release those metals
to the air.  Find a local oil recycling facility (most stores which sell
motor oil are supposed to accept it, some city recycling programs also
accept used oil.)  Service stations typically won't take it anymore
from consumers because they don't know what else is in it.

				Steve

    
    There are waste-oil burners on the market today. They are designed to
    burn the waste oil from autos. In fact places like Jiffy-lube use them
    to heat their place during the winter. Yes it probably does put some
    metals into the air, but it's a MUUUUUCH cleaner way of getting rid of
    the oil then anything else available.
    
    Mike

There's a lot of particulates suspended in your waste oil that will clog your
burner nozzle real quick. Waste oil heaters have elaborate filters that remove
them. You are relying on essentially a ball of string.

Forget it.

CdH

    RE::waste oil burners
    
    	Where can I get info/see waste oil burners.
    
    				Gerry
    

Try your local HVAC supply house. Lanair is one brand name I know of.

CdH

    thanks for the responses.  Figured I would check it out before I
    started dumping any in the tank.  We are in need of a new furnace as
    well so I will check out the availability and cost with a local
    heating person.  BTW - Sears does take waste oil, at least in my area
    they do, Fitchburg/Leominster without hassle, charge or the requirement
    to have bought it there.  Just curious if I could supplement the fuel
    oil by mixing in waste motor oil.   
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Brian 

    
    Re: waste oil burners, alt energy, : 
    
     There's a place in Sterling Ma. on Rt 12 that makes/sells alternate
    energy furnaces. I believe he makes furnances that burn waste oil
    and he also has a furnace that burns waste paper at very high BTU
    rates. He claims that the BTUs are so high that there is only a small
    puff of smoke at start up time, and then there is no smoke after that.
    
     The main drawback on these units is price. They cost double/triple
    the price of conventional furnaces because the economies of scale
    aren't there yet. Maybe somebody will mass produce these things some
    day and every home will have secondary furnaces which burn waste oil
    or paper......
    
    
       Bob
     

Finally, I can heat my house on junk mail and old newspapers!

Stan

    In Pepperell, the old motor oil you put in the recyle tank at the dump is 
    used to heat the highway dept. garage.  
    
    Carl
    

And now folks are complaining that that dumps lead into the air when its 
burned and they want to ban or control that.

                      <<< Note 2736.14 by EMMFG::LAYTON >>>
                  -< Get your town to recycle the smart way. >-

    In Pepperell, the old motor oil you put in the recyle tank at the dump is 
    used to heat the highway dept. garage.  
    
    Carl
    

    re .1
    
    At what temperature should I turn on my heat tape to prevent gelling?
    
    Thanks,
    Diane 

    Re .5
    
    Ask your oil supplier.  Usually, some Magic Bug Juice is added to
    the recipe to prevent congealing in cold weather, but the exact
    juice and proportion varies by supplier and geography.
    
    PBM
    

    Hi,
    
    Thanks for the suggestions.  I called my oil supplier; they do offer an
    additive, $5.00-worth would take care of a 275-gallon tank.  They also
    advised that I needn't be concerned about the oil congealing until the 
    temperatures get down to the single digits.  I'll see how the heat
    strip does if it ever gets cold enough!  (50+ degrees in central Mass.
    in December so far!)
    
    /dlw

	     I read somewhere in this file about using Kerosene for the
	colder months.  It's supposed to be very similar to #2 heating 
	oil in burn and heat output but remains fluid at colder tempera-
	tures.  It would be easier and probably cheaper than electric
	heat tape.  
	    I'd call an oil company or two about this.  

    
      One small problem...Kerosene costs a whole lot more than heating
    oil and it wouln't take much to make you realize the heating tape would
    be peanuts by comparison.

I just paid GlenMor 98.9 for oil.  I think that is high!  How say y'all?

I have been looking at McClellan out of Tewksbury.  Are they recommended?

Any comments on oil dealers in the North Andover area?

Thanks,
Stan

�I just paid GlenMor 98.9 for oil.  I think that is high!  How say y'all?
    
    That does sound high.  I paid 93�/gallon within the last couple of
    weeks.  The oil company was even kind of apologetic about this price. 
    They said the summer prices have been as high or higher than they were
    this past heating season.

       I think prices for heating oil in the Fitchburg paper have been
    around $.78 lately. Haven't bought for a while though.
                                 Denny

    We had our tank filled in June and paid around .89/gallon.
    
    Mike

I just ordered some, 73�/gallon COD, in the Fitchburg area.

-Mike

    $.73 is the current price in the Gardner area.

       I checked the paper last night. Fitchburg/Leominster is
    $.71-.73. If you guys are paying in the .90s you might wanna move!
                                   Denny  8^)
    

    Lots of times the difference in prices is due to being with a
    full-service oil company vs a fuel-only company.  Denny, the prices
    you're referring to are probably for companies like Fraticelli and
    Cleghorn.  I don't know about Cleghorn but I use Fraticelli and they
    aren't full service.
    
    John

       I use Leominster Ice. I believe they're also in the burner
    sales/service biz., and they're the same 'cash' price as the cheapos.
                                   Denny

    We do a "pre-paid" plan.  I just bought 1000 gallons for .819 and the
    oil will be automatically delivered throughout the winter season.  This
    is through Rochettes in Merrimack, NH.
    
    Julie

    The $.73 price per gallon,in the Gardner area,is from full service
    dealers.If your dealer charged you $.90+ I'de start shopping around.

Fred Fuller, a full service dealer in So. NH, just quoted me 
.799/gallon.

daryll

    Just got a flyer in the mail from Fuller's, it is .799 if you order
    before Labor Day.
    
    dana
    

    For people in the Greater Boston area, you might want to try:
    
    	Nanjo Oil
    	617-469-4144
        Joe Esco (sp?)
    
    This is a new company (2 weeks old) which delivers oil on a cash
    basis.  The price today was 0.799 per gallon.  They also provide
    service, but I didn't ask about the details.
    
    I know Joe when he was a student at Bentley College ('82) and know
    he is a decent person.  Tell him I referred you.
    
    Best Regards,                                                    
    Jasper Chin

    
    
    	I'm not sure if anyone is still reading this note, but it seems
    	to be the right place to ask my question.
    
    	Is it legal to run the oil supply line up and along the ceiling
    	and then down to the burner unit ..?  The tank is in my cellar
    	and rather than have the exposed tubing on the floor or covered 
    	with a mound of cement (which someone is sure to trip over..), I
    	was told that the tubing could be routed via  attachment to the
    	exposed 1st floor joists.  Since the burner is force fed by a fuel 
    	pump, the flow of fuel should be adequate.  
    
    	Does this sound like a legitimate and safe solution..?  I know,
    	don't go hanging the laundry from the tubing... and keep the kids
    	from trying pull-ups on it also..!!
    
    	Thanks for any advice....
    
    
    	Jay
    
   

    > Is it legal ...
    
    Well, they did it on TOH on the recent ranch-revival in MA....
    
    Edd

    How about digging a trench in the concrete floor? The concrete is easy
    to chip out, once you have started the hole.
    
    Marc H.

    Mine has been overhead since I don't know when.  The oil guy sees it 
    every year, actually worked on it two years ago, never said a word
    about it.
    

    
    the last owner ran the tubing along the bottom of the wall over
    to the tank.  About 30' worth.  I plan to use only half that amount.
    This owner is going to cut into the cement.  Place a plastic pipe 
    in the cut.  Run the supply tube thru the plastic pipe and cover the 
    thing over.  Out of sight, out of mind and out of harms way!!!
    
    
    JD

    RE:  .20
    
    That's the way they ran the tubing for my new house built in 1988 (in
    New Hampshire).
    
    Chet

    
    My father used to use sawdust all the time for oil spills.  For
    old oil spills, he would put the sawdust down and add some mineral
    spirits, turpentine, or other type of thinner he had lying around
    to the sawdust.  After a few hours or so, most of the oil spill would be
    soaked up in the sawdust.  This technique never did totally remove
    the stain but it did get rid of the majority of the spill.
    
    Phil

    
    
    The finer the better.  It works great for starting the wood
    stove after!
    
    JD

    
    -1 
    Isn't that stuff is very prone to spontaneous combustion?
    
    

If it's linseed oil, yes.  If it's a non-drying oil (motor oil, etc.), I
very much doubt it.  Any knowledgeable volunteer firemen out there?

    In contrast to previous years, the price for heating oil in June (at
    least in the Leominster-Fitchburg area), has not dropped at all from
    the price it was in January/February. Any insight as to why?

The story is because it never went up this winter.  I've paid the same price
for almost a year.  

	It seemed to go down around here (Nashua).  I seem to remember
	paying in the 90's (cents) this past Winter, and I'd have to
	double check, but believe my recent fillup was just $.749 ....

    I just received a quote of 67.9/gal in bulk quantities. You 
    can save on oil prices if you pay cash on delivery and have
    a large tank. At present I have a 1100 gallon tank in ground
    that I intend to remove, maybe this year. I also have a 500
    gallon tank in my basement that will be connected when I
    decommission the 1100 gallon tank. 
    
    Joe
    

    re: .63
    
    $.87 in January
    $.87 in March
    $.87 current price
    
    All quotes are for 150 gal./min; payment with 10 days.

>     $.87 current price
>     All quotes are for 150 gal./min; payment with 10 days.

	Sounds like your oil company likes to keep a consistent price :-)
	I'd say go elsewhere!  The .749 [cash] price I got was only 15 days ago
	150 * .12 (ie. .87-.75) = $18 ....

    
    86 cents/gallon last thursday from one of the cheapest in
    the area.
    
    Fred

    The price dropped 3� this week, to $.84. Perhaps inventories were
    smaller this spring, due to the harsher winter, which delayed the
    seasonal price drop.

    FWIW, the price protection offered by my oil company is 99�/gal as
    opposed to $1.03 last year.  They guarantee that they will not charge
    more than that amount during the next year.

    Just got the budget plan info from my oil company--
    
    	$.89 if I pay in 8 monthly installments or
    	$.91 if I pay in 10
    
    Total estimated usage is 910 gallons

    I was just quoted .779/gal for prepaid. Received a flyer advertising
    .749 for prepaid.

    The cash price from my dealer (Fitchburg area) has dropped 6� (to .64)
    over the past three weeks. Now I'm not complaining, but this behavior
    is again contrary to previous years, where the price starts heading
    north after Labor Day. Am I observing the effects of a local price war,
    or are prices heading down all over?
    

The spot price for oil is WAY down.  That's why gas is headed for below a
dollar again...

    re: .73 > That's why gas is headed for below a dollar again...
    
    I think the new FED gas tax is due to kick in OCT 1. I think that adds
    about 4.7 cents and will probably kill the sub dollar price.
    
    
    Mike 

Does anyone have any newer info on this issue? My son just bought a house
with an outdoor fuel tank (and has NO access to any previous owner of the
house), and I'm faced with replacing a buried tank with one in my
attached shed/barn.

On the subject of burning kerosene - would you need to fill the tank with
kero, or would 5-10 gallons per fillup be sufficient to prevent gelling?

My son asked his oil man about gelling, and was told "I can sell you an
additive to prevent gelling, or you can go to your local hardware store
and buy <I think it's denatured alcohol, but this troubles me> for a lot
less money, and it will prevent gelling."

If you've priced heat tape, and you've looked at the size of a 275 gallon
oil tank, you'll agree that you're talking about a LOT of heat tape, and
that gets expensive quickly. Not to mention the continuing expense of
paying PSNH the highest rates in the country.

What to do?

    	Just a thought, but if the shed holding the oil tank was small and
    very well insulated, perhaps a louvered dryer-type vent/fan could be 
    placed through the house wall into the shed. The fan could be 
    thermostatically controlled from inside the shed to come on at something 
    above the oil gel point (40 ?).
    
    	Ray
    

re .10:

I'd think heat tape on the line to the house and the portion of the tank where
the line enters it should be sufficient.  As long as the line is not gelled
(plugged) and the part of the tank near the line is liquid, the rest of the
tank contents, even if gelled, would probably ooze to the "warm" spot quickly
enough to ungel and supply fuel.

    My F-I-L has been dealing with this situation for over 20 years.  His
    tank is located outside the house.  He has about 2 feet of line from
    the tank to where it goes thru the wall.  He use to have problems.  I
    do not believe he uses electrical heat tape.  He has wrapped/insulated
    the line, and has built a box around the line with more insulation. 
    I'll get the specifics and get back to you.  I know the tank itself has
    always been exposed.  He cleans and paints the tank every couple of
    years.   Mark

    
    depending upon tank size (actually surface area), exposed propane
    tanks can also have problems in the winter.  Something about not
    enough surface area for cold temperatures which leads to low 
    pressure....  I guess this is only a problem if you're heating
    with gas as I grew up in a house which used two tall cylinders
    but it was used for cooking only and I don't recall any problems.
    
     

    
    It's the surface area of the liquid propane; the hoirzontal tanks
    used for home heating should have less of a problem, if any.
    

It's also the volume of propane.  As the gas is used, the liquid propane cools,
and when cold the pressure is low.  With a small tank (or large tank near
empty) there's not much liquid so it cools quicker for a given usage.

Warm weather and a large surface area both help keep the propane from
getting too cold.
-Mike

   Tank-Guard (TG) by Lincoln Lab (LL)
   
   I just got a letter from my oil company offering TG.  I read the
   prior strings, seems to be mixed opinions.  I would love to hear some
   updated info on this product.
   
   In bold this starts the letter. "The price today to replace a leaking
   oil tank averages from $700 to $1000."  
   
   It now costs $27.95/year.  They do the annual treatement.  
   
   It states "if you have a tank leak which is covererd by the TG warranty,
   your oil tank will be replaced at no charge (parts and labor).  Removal
   and certified disposal of your old oil tank is included.  Permits, new
   oil lines, and mandated state and local safety code updates if required
   will be extra".
   
   Your oil tank is eligible for enrollment if it has not been repaired at
   any time and is not leaking now.  Underground tanks and tanks > 330
   gallons are not eligible.
   
   the warranty; "if during this period (1 yr) your above ground tank leaks
   from internal corrosion which tank-guard has failed to prevent, you will
   be eligible to receive a new replacement tank per the details below. 
   Leak verification is required.
   
   Bond-tite tank service (a div of LL) will replace the tank, and LL will
   pay for the new tank installation and old tank removal.  The new tank
   installation includes a new oil safety valve, tank shutoff valve, and
   firomatic valve.  The tank guage and vent alarm will also be replaced if
   needed at no charge..
   
   The costs of permits, charges required by current safety codes,
   difficult access or other unusual circumstances will be billed to
   you..."
   

    I have been there with the out door oil tank problem.  Only thing that
    worked for me was burning kero in the winter.
    
    Wayne

Did you try mixing kero and fuel oil 50-50 or so?

Art

    No.  I got tired of testing this and that and went with straight kero. 
    When you don't have any heat paying the extra for kero don't seem so
    bad at that point in time :^)
    
    Wayne

RE: .10 - Well, the predictable happened. Saturday morning my son called
and said he woke up to a house temp of 50 degrees. Said his furnace
wouldn't run without tripping. I asked him about the 1/2 gallon of
antigelling additive that I gave him (partly as a prank) for Christmas.
He sheepishly said he poured it in that morning.

I drove over and disconnected the line at the output of his fuel oil
filter (which is connected to the cutoff valve at the output nipple of
the outside oil tank). No oil came out. I removed my gloves (it was 15�)
and held my hands on the piping and filter for about five minutes. A few
drops of oil dripped out. We reconnected everything, and wrapped a heat
tape (with thermostat) along the nipple, valve, around the filter without
overlapping, then along the side of four three feet of exposed copper
fuel line. Then we wrapped fiberglass around all that, covered that with
a plastic wrap, plugged it in and went in. 

An hour later I reset the furnace, which then ran for about an hour
straight, until the inside thermostats were satisfied. He later told me
it took four or five hours before the walls and furnishings came back to
decent temperature.

I think he'll keep the additive in there now.

Art

    My oil tank is located in the basement, the fill line is 2" galvanized
    and the vent line is 1.5" PVC.  Neither line has been sealed properly,
    the vent line is dry fitted, the galvanized has no sealing material on
    the joints.  Over the years the fill line has simply sealed itself with
    'gunk', and the PVC never really has sealed.  Everytime the tank is
    filled, the fumes from the failing vent line are horrible (and unsafe).
    
    I am going to replace both lines, and relocate slightly, (they are in
    the way of a planned heating duct).  What material is really the best
    for these lines.  I would really like to use PVC, but I don't think it
    will deteriorate in reaction to the oil.  (True or False).  Galvanized
    is my next choice with teflon tape on the joints.  Copper in this size
    is too hard to find, and too expensive for a 20' run to the outside
    wall.  
    
    Any recommendations???

    I doubt that PVC would be approved by code.  Carrying flammable 
    material in a plastic pipe doesn't seem to me like something
    the Powers That Be would think was a good idea...but I don't know
    for sure.  Check with your building inspector first, if you
    decide to go that route.
    
    I think black iron or galvanized threaded pipe is the way to go.

Every installation I've seen has black iron for both the supply and the vent
lines.  I always assumed it was code (check whether it is).  I assume galvanized
would be OK but I doubt PVC would be allowed at all.

-Mike

    Well, I checked with my building inspector - no codes specifying
    materials.  Just 2" diameter for fill and 1.25" diameter for vent.
    So, I check with my fuel oil supplier - they are using PVC on all
    installations now.  Schedule 40 with any standard solvent weld.  Test
    have shown that no deterioration occurs on the pipe or on the fittings.
    
    This can certainly make a job like this easier - I hate working with
    galvainzed or black iron pipe.

    Wow!  That *does* make life a lot easier.  Maybe I'll move mine....
    

    
    I am trying to find a way to compute the volume of fuel in a 300 Gal
    tank.
    
    The tank in question is more than 1/2 full, it is a 6ft cylinder
    mounted on its long side.
                     
    Any suggestions ?
    
    jmb
    

    What's hard?  It's elementary geometry.  I don't know the formula
    for a segment of a circle offhand, but it can be looked up in a
    handbook.  Take out a plug in the top of the tank (I assume there
    is one) and put in a stick to measure the depth of the fuel.
    Figure out the area of the segment of a circle of diameter equal
    to the diameter of the tank, with the chord at the depth of the
    fuel, then multiply by the length of the tank.
    

To find the volume of a cylinder: area of base * height
                                  area of base = pi * radius squared or
                                  area of base = pi * 1/2 diameter squared
                                  
One gallon     = 231 cubic inches
One cubic foot = 1728 cubic inches
One gallon     = .13368 cubic foot

Another approach: shut off the fuel valve at the tank outlet. Remove the
fuel line that runs from the tank to the furnace, and measure that
fitting. It's probably around a half inch, maybe 5/8". Go to your local
hardware store and buy eight feet or so of clear flexible plastic hose
that is the closest inside diameter to the outside diameter of that
fitting above, plus a hose clamp that will fit outside the hose. 

Slip one end of the plastic hose over the threaded fitting, and cinch it
down with the hose clamp. Have someone hold the plastic hose vertically
next to the fuel tank, so that the end of the hose is higher than the top
of the tank. Open the valve. The fuel will rise inside the hose to the
level of the oil in the tank. Mark that level on the outside of the tank,
then calculate the percentage of fuel in the tank. In other words, if the
level is indeed half way up the tank, and it's a 300 gallon tank, then
1/2 of 300 is 150 gallons...

HTH,

Art

    re: .244
    
    Oh - you're assuming the cylinder is standing on end - that's
    even simpler!  But I infer from .242 that the axis of the 
    cylinder is horizontal.

    re:242
    
    	Just out of curiousity, what is the info needed for ? 
    
    	Ray

re: 90.242

>    I am trying to find a way to compute the volume of fuel in a 300 Gal
>    tank.

Um, ah..  er ...   Ahem. -->  Gallons ARE a measure of volume.

According to my dictionary a gallon is equal to 231 cu in, if that helps.

Methinks the author wants to calculate the volume in a partially filled 
tank based on the depth of the oil in said tank.

.243
    >...It's elementary geometry.  I don't know the formula
    >for a segment of a circle offhand, but it can be looked up in a
    >handbook.  Take out a plug in the top of the tank (I assume there
    >is one) and put in a stick to measure the depth of the fuel.

    it looks like your handbook and mine are in the same place! 

.244
    >...hardware store and buy eight feet or so of clear flexible plastic
    >hose that is the closest inside diameter to the outside diameter of
    >that fitting above, plus a hose clamp that will fit outside the hose. 
    >
    >Slip one end of the plastic hose over the threaded fitting, and cinch
    >it down with the hose clamp. Have someone hold the plastic hose
    >vertically next to the fuel tank, so that the end of the hose is higher
    >than the top of the tank. Open the valve. The fuel will rise inside the
    >hose to the level of the oil in the tank. 

    all done, came fitted on the tank

.245
    >...Oh - you're assuming the cylinder is standing on end - that's even
    >simpler!  But I infer from .242 that the axis of the  cylinder is
    >horizontal.

    Correct!

 .246
    >...Just out of curiousity, what is the info needed for ? 

    It started out as 'how much oil is in the tank' and how 'much fuel am I
    using'.  Its become how do you compute the volume of a fraction of a
    cylinder when you can't take the cylinder stand it on end and apply
    the suggestion in .244

    jmb

    
    Only to complicate things:
    
    	Don't forget to calculate the volume of the slurry oil left
    	in the base of the tank below the level of the output and 
    	subtract it from the calculated total volume of remaining oil 
    	to determine the actual volume of available oil.
    
    							      Whee!
    
    							      - Mac
    
                                                        
    

    A layperson's approach (without the aid of a math handbook) might be to
    estimate the fuel volume with a scale drawing divided into a series of
    polygons (actually a mathematically-impaired integral).

    If you draw a series of horizontal lines through a circle, and connect
    the points where adjacent lines intersect the circle, you wind up with
    a number of polygons that roughly describe the area of the circle. Each
    of the ploygons can be further divided into two right triangles and a
    rectangle (except at the very top and bottom, where there is no
    rectangle), making unit area calculations simple. Adding up all the
    unit areas gives you an approximation of the area of the circle; the more
    horizontal lines you draw, the closer your approximation will be to the
    actual area.

    Based on that, I would do the following:

    1) Draw a circle representing the cross section of the tank; do this
       to some reasonable and fairly accurate scale.

    2) Determine the height of the fuel, and draw a horizontal line on your
       circle representing it.

    3) Draw more horizontal lines at regular intervals. If the tank is 6'
       high, for example, and the height of the fuel is 4'6", then draw
       13 horizontal lines to represent 6"intervals. (I would use no fewer
       than 8 or 10 lines, or the approximations will be too low; 3 lines
       is clearly too few.)

    4) Connect the intersections to form polygons. Draw verticals to
       separate the right triangles in these polygons from the rectangles.

    5) With measurements from your drawing (and keeping your scale in mind)
       calculate the area of each triangle and rectangle that represents
       fuel, and add them together; this represents the area of the cross
       section of the fuel. Do the same for the free space. As a sanity
       check, the sum of both areas should be slightly less than the actual
       area of the circle. (You can use the delta between your estimated
       area of the circle and the actual area as a correction in your final
       results; for example, if the actual area of the circle is 5% higher
       than your estimated area, increase the final volumes by 5%.)

    6) Multiply the results by the length of the tank to get the volumes.

    (This method can be used on any tank that maintains a constant shape
    from end to end, even if it's not circular, as long as you can draw a
    fairly accurate picture of the cross section.)
    

    	Although my tank has a gauge on it, we typically fill our tank when
    we have oil delivered. If you do the same, just save the receipts and
    you'll have what you need. No math needed :-)
    
    	One other thing. Since you already have the tube gauge on the side,
    you could mark that up. Make a cardboard template of the side of the
    tank. From the middle, draw horizontal lines 1" apart then vertical
    lines 1" apart (i.e. 1" square grids). You only need to make the grid
    marks on half of the circle.
    
    	The pi*R(sq) will give you the area of the circle at the end of the
    cylinder. Divide this by 300 to give you the number of square inches per 
    gallon. You can use this to approximate whatever increments you'd like. 
    You can likely approximate the partial 1" squares at the edges close 
    enough for what you're trying to do. Of course you can go the math
    route for this too.
    
    	In either case, once you have the template marked the way you want, 
    place it on the end of the tank and mark your tube gauge accordingly. It's 
    a little crude, but it'll probably be accurate enough for what you're 
    trying to do (unless of course my first suggestion applies).
    
    	Ray

To further complicate matters, most oil tanks are elliptical
in cross section, not cylindrical...

    
    According to my calculation...
    
    Assume R is the radius of the tank and H is the height of the oil from
    the bottom of the tank.  H should range in value from 0.0 to 2*R.
    
    First calculate the cross sectional area (A) of the oil.  the formula I
    generate is:
    
    A = ( PI * R * H / 2.0 ) + R*(H-R)*cos(PI*(H-R)/(2*R))
    
    Then the volume is generated by multiplying the cross sectional area by
    the length, L, of the tank.  That is, V = A*L
    
    I can't say that I know what typical dimensions of an oil tank are,
    but assuming the tank radius is 50cm and the length is 2m, the total
    volume of oil in the tank (totally filled) is 1570 liters, or about 400
    gallons.
    
    Just to check the formula, when H=0 (i.e. empty tank), the area is 0.0
    and therefore the volume os zero.
    
    When H=R=50cm (i.e. half full), the area is: A = PI*R*R/2 and the
    volume is 780 liters, or about 200 gallons.
    
    And the last trival example is when H=2R (i.e. full tank), the volume
    of oil is 1570 liters, or 400 gallons.
    
    
    Just a note here - the argument to the cosine is RADIANS, not degrees.
    
    I'm sure someone will check this formula further and post a reply to
    correct me if my formula is wrong.
                                                        
    Phil