Conference 7.286::home_work

Last week we passed papers on an old (100+ years) house. My wife and I
have been wanting for years to fix up an old house and now we have one.
We plan on doing most of the work ourselves as we both have in our
past have had experience with one aspect of the job or another.
I would like to hear from other people who have done the same so I
can advoid thier mistakes and invent my own.

The house is 1 1/2 stories and is stucturly sound. The roof was
reshingled and repaired 3 1/2 years ago. The heat is oil fired
FHA and the furnace is about 13 - 15 years old. A 2 year old
Becket burner is going to be installled next week. 
There is no insulation in the walls and all the windows are
origiunal equipment.

The only problem with the structure is the kitchen floor
(the kitchen was enlarged some years ago and the end of the
addition settled about 2 1/2 inches) slopes.

Anybody got any advice?

Bill

Being the owner of an older house (125+ years), I can attest to the wisdom
of a maxim about old house repair:

	Always cover over; never tear up.

Actually, to do most repairs correctly, it's usually best to remove and
replace the broken/worn/rotten/... material.  Just be prepared to find
additional problems after each removal step.  Sometimes it seems there is
no end to layers of problems.

-- Ward

I was about to add notes about a couple of serious topics (The Old-House
Journal and insulating walls) when I realized that this note could easily
become a jumble of random replies.

I suggest that we use separate new notes for each new topic.

-- Ward

re: .0

One solution to a sagging floor, depending on the cause, is to install braces
in the cellar (jacks ?), after jacking up the sagging portion. See if you
can get a copy of the "Old House Compendium". There's an excellent section
on jacking up old floors.

Have you checked the "Sills"?Was the house inspected by a "home inspector"?
                                                                          
If yu can't get a copy, or need more advice (from magazines...I've never
done it) let me know personally (TONTO::EARLY).

						Bob

My last house was about 100 years old and we spent 5 - 6 years working on it.
We watched "This Old House" faithfully throughout but found a series done by
Charlie Wing (A House for All Seasons?) on PBS to be much better and more
realistic for what "we" wanted to do (Norm Abrams from TOH just wasn't 
for consultation I guess.)  Wings house was in southern Maine and was built 
in a similar time period.  If you can find anyone who video taped the series
or if PBS runs it again it would be worthwhile viewing it.

Stan

A couple of guidelines:

Do it RIGHT...the first time.  If you try a quick patch, two or three or five
years from now you'll be patching again.  Spend the extra bucks to do the
job the right way the first time around, and it will probably be cheaper in
the long run.

Live in the house at least a year before you do anything too drastic.  I
find that it takes at least that long for me to begin to get a feel for 
what I really want to do, and it's frequently not what I initially thought 
I wanted to do.

Steve

We rented the house for 2 1/2 years before we bought it.
Because we passed papers so late, the work we want to do
will have to wait until spring. The advantage there is 
1) we will be able to save up the basic ingredient for this 
work (ie cash) and 2) I will have all winter to develop
my plans beyond what they are now.
 I will be rebuilding rather than restoring. The house is not
unique from any historical respect and the appraisers and a
few contractors I have talked to (for advice) all agree
that I have a solid house with good possibilities.
 I am a firm believer in doing it right the first time. I dont
want to make the house rebuilding my full time occupation for 
the next 20 years.

Bill

My slab consists of gravel, pea-stone, and vapor barrier (I forget the order,
but could find out), below the concrete. This keeps the moisture out of
concrete altogether, seals the basement better, and stops any of the
ground radioactivity that seeps thru basements in some geographical areas.
The basement has not been finished, so I don't know if a second vapor barrier
would be in order, but if I did, I would put it on top of the insulation
and sleepers, to keep the vapor barrier on the warm side of the insulation...
thus keeping relatively warm basement air from seeping thru the insulation,
cooling, and water condensing.

When putting a vapor barrier under concrete, *beware*, the concrete takes
much longer to set. A crew came to put down the slab... the concrete was
poured, and the crew flattened it, then they waited, and waited, had lunch,
waited, waited, finally it was getting near 5 PM, they itched to leave,
and did the final finish before they should have. The result was a basement
floor that is not very smooth.

Dave

RE: .1
  But you should have a stronger (harder) floor if the concrete cures
more slowly, so it's probably a good thing.  

I think my choice would be:

some sort of liquid brush-on sealer
---
concrete slab
---
6-mil poly
---
1" rigid styrofoam
---
approx. 4" gravel

I don't think I'd build a wooden floor on top of the concrete, but that's
because I have a 1200-pound milling machine to contend with.  If you
don't need an ABSOLUTELTY rigid base for your shop tools, a wooden floor
probably will be a lot warmer (and easier on the feet).  In any case,
I think the 1" foam under the slab would help.

Steve

    According to an article in New Shelter, this is what they recommend
    for subslab insulation:
    
    	Concrete slab (4" - 6")
    	---
    	Fine Gravel 1�" - 2" thick
    	---
    	6-mil Polyethylene
    	---
    	1" - 2" Rigid Insulation
    	---
    	Gravel (2" diameter, 4" - 6" deep)
    
    According to a recent article published in the Sunday Boston Globe,
    this is what they recommend:
    
    	Concrete slab
    	---
    	Layer of sand �" - 1" thick
    	---
    	4-mil Polyethylene
    	---
    	1" - 2" Rigid Tongue & Groove Styrofoam
    	---
    	Another layer of sand �" - 1" thick
    	---
    	Dirt

    Does anyone know of a firm in the Lowell area that will remove an
    empty 275 gallon, home heating, oil tank?  I need to get it out
    of the cellar so I can refinish it into a family room.  Junk yards
    don't want it and oil companies can't be bothered.  Any ideas?
    
    -TB

>  Junk yards don't want it and oil companies can't be bothered.
    
   No ideas, but the story is as of May 1, 1986 (I think) you have to 
take any container that was used for any hazardous product (gasoline and
oil included) to a hazardous waste disposal company for sanatization and 
disposal. You local town dump by law cannot accept them and you local
oil company is faced with the same problem you are, they can't take them to
the dump.

bill

    A friend of mine also removed a 275 gallon oil tank, but did not
    discard it.  He cut it in half lengthwise - making two very
    useful troughs (and gave me one!).  I use mine for mixing mortar
    and cement.
    
    
    Mark
    

    re .2
    That's not a bad idea!  How do you cut one of those?  All I have
    is a propane torch and a hacksaw.  I could grow old doing it that
    way!!

    Is it any good?  If you put it outside, I'll take it.
    

    One way to cut the tank is to rent or borrow a SAWZALL (Milwakee
    or other reciprocating saw) with metal cutting blades.
    
    Nick

    Yes, I would think a SAWZALL would cut it.  My friend got another
    friend to cut it with a torch.  Friends are great !
    
    
    Mark

    	If you don't mind the sparks use a circular saw with a metal
    cutting blade.  I cut a car in half once with one.....Jorge'

    Yes, I was driving along a road in Portland, Maine with my cousin
    a while ago and he pointed out a large vacant lot covered with bricks
    and rubble.  He said it used to be the garage and repair building
    for a gasoline delivery company.  One day somebody was welding an 
    "empty" truck...the largest piece of the truck they found was a piece
    of the front end of the tank.  And the building just disappeared.
    Fuel oil probably wouldn't be quite that explosive, but I don't think
    I'd want to experiment.
    
    Steve

< Note 237.3 by ROCOCO::BENTO >
                          -< I like the idea,but.... >-

>    That's not a bad idea!  How do you cut one of those?  All I have
>    is a propane torch and a hacksaw.  I could grow old doing it that
>    way!!

You could also die!  Remember, fuel was stored in that tank.  My father has
had the unfortunate experience of seeing a man die from decapitation as this
man used an acetylene torch to make a 55 gallon drum into a garbage can.  The
drum was "empty" of it's combustible material, though he found out in the worst
way that fumes can be lethal!

That story is no crap!

I would use a circular saw with a metal cutting blade(I think carborundum would
do), rather than the saws-all, simply to improve your cutting edge, if you can
somehow prevent the sparks.  Otherwise, use a saws-all.

rep

    
    I'm not sure how thick that metal is, but if you have a compressor
    around you can try a hammer/chisel gun with the sheet metal cutter
    to cut it.  The only trouble spots might be the end welds...
    
    						.dave.

    My father removes them all the time in his heating/airconditioning/
    sheetmetal business. Always has people that convert to gas heat
    tell him that he can have the oil in the tank if he gets rid of
    the tank. He pumps out the oil for his shop or home and then cuts
    the tank up with a SAWZALL. I've yet to see any abrasive wheel that
    don't give off a shower of sparks. By the way heating oil is not
    explosive like gasoline or other solvents but you still wouldn't
    want to use a torch or something that would start the oil film in
    the tank burning. The metal in the tank is also a bit too thick
    for an air chisel but a tool called a sheet metal nibbler that punches
    out successive cresent moon shaped pieces would be ideal. Unfortunately
    very few rental places or friends have one of these and they are
    too expensive for the ordinary person to purchase, that is why I
    recommended the SAWZALL
    
    Nick

    I have welded automobile gasoline tanks by running a vacuum cleaner
    hose from the exhaust pipe of a running vehicle into the tank being
    welded.
    

    RE: .13 (running auto exhaust into an auto gas tank being welded)
    
    You've got more guts than I do! There's a few notes in CARBUFFSV3
    (NOTES::) on the subject. Consensus from those doing it was that
    carbontetrachloride in the tank would be able to displace all O2.
    Ever since I saw one pop while being welded in the 60's after beaucoup
    attempts to rid it of gasoline, I stay FAR AWAY from any techniques
    for welding gas tanks.  

    Before I finish off the basement (still) I am thinking of adding
    some joist supports to the upstairs floor.  When in CT last month,
    I noticed that the house my cousin was having built had 2x10 joists
    with 2x10 (joistettes?) between them to keep them straight and whatever
    else they do.  I thought this was really quality work in that the
    only thing keeping my joists from twisting is air and a few (very
    few) cross beams hade of tooth picks.
    
    Picture:
    
    My house:
    
        --------------------------------------------
        |\     /|       |       |       |       |
        | \   / |       |       |       |       |
        |  \ /  |       |       |       |       |
        |   X   |       |etc... |       |       |
        |  / \  |       |       |       |       |
        | /   \ |       |       |       |       |
        |/     \|       |       |       |       |
                

    Cousins house: (looking up)
    
    
    
        |       |       |       |       |       |
        |-------|       |-------|       |-------|<- solid 2x10's
        |       |-------|       |-------|       |
        |       |       |       |       |       |
        |       |       |       |       |       |

    Question: Is this really superior?  Is it worth the extra $50-100
    to cut up 2x8's (in my case) and nail them between the joists? 
    Especially since there is no way to anchor the floor to these things.
    
    						.dave.

    Both your toothpicks and the joistettes are called 'bridging'. 
    The purpose is not to provide additional support for the floor
    (directly, anyway), but to transfer concentrated loads on one
    joist to the adjoining joists.
    
    So you don't have to worry about not nailing the floor to any
    joistettes you install.
    
    On the other hand, the 'toothpicks' do the job just as well
    (some references say they do it better, though I don't know
    why - perhaps it's assumed that solid bridging won't be fitted
    carefully, whereas the cross-pieces can easily be nailed snug).
    
    		- Bill
    

    If you are putting up a ceiling (such as drywall), don't forget
    to run 1X2's every 16" perpendicular to the joists.
    
    Jim Pappas

    re .1
    
    .1 is correct in saying that bridging transfers the load among joists.
    the 1 x 3 strapping (or furring) technique usually produces a tighter
    lock.  i have built several homes and prefer the strapping technique.
    using 2 x 8's or 2 x 10's as bridging is usually done if you have
    many scrap pieces of flooring joists.  i would say that if you were
    building a new house and wanted to be efficient in using up all
    of the scrap, then bridge with joist stock.  otherwise, use strapping.
    note:  when i did use 2 x 10's as bridging, a significant amount
    of warping and shrinkage occurred which led me to believe that these
    scraps where no longer distributing the load.

    Thanks all.  I guess I won't bother adding in the 2x8 bridging then.
    
    						.dave.

As an old Electrician, I hate solid bridging- you got to drill through
    the stuff, whereas the diagnoals let you run pipes and wires thru.
    
    More important, in my shop, with open joist ceiling, I store all
    manner of junk in the joist space laying through the diagnoals.
    
    Ron

There was an article in Fine Homebuilding a year or so ago that questioned 
whether the bridging performed any useful function at all.  I guess they ran 
some tests and found that there was a negligible difference between solid 
bridging, cross bridging, and none at all.

Paul

    The real reason "bridging" is used is to keep the joists from twisting
    or bending! Solid blocking is much easier to install and will make
    the floor or ceiling much more rigid.
    
    Most builders will install cross bridging by installing the two
    halfs of the cross on the top of the joist and at some time later
    after the floor is down will nail the bottom half of the cross.
    I believe the full cross should be installed before any flooring
    goes done.
    
    I have done about ten jobs that required bridging and find solid
    blocking both stronger and faster to install!
    
    -Mike-
    

    You can also buy galvanized steel bridging straps. They are about
    18" long, with a center bend (lengthwise), and pre-punched nail
    holes. There cheap and much faster to install than wood.
    

    If you decide to use metal bridging, don't let the two pieces touch
    each other where they cross.  If they do (as mine did), you'll get
    all kinds of squeeking and grinding noises from the metal to metal
    contact when you walk on the floor above.  Leave about 1/4" spacing
    between the two.

           re: .12
                    Where is dad's place of buisness? I've got one
                 in my cellar with about 1/4 tank of oil left. How
                 long is the oil good for? I think that the previous
                 owner converted about 10 years ago.

    RE: .15
    
    	My father's business is in Garwood, New Jersey. Most likely
    	too far for your needs.
    
    	Nick

    I'm planning on converting part of my basement into a "family" room.
    I thought of finishing the floor by strapping it and laying rigid
    insulation panels between them, laying down a subfloor, and then
    finishing with either wood or carpet.  The problem is getting the
    concrete floor level.  I have heard of some type of floor leveling
    compound which you pour onto the floor.  It, according to what I
    heard, finds it's own level and voila, you have a perfectly level
    floor to build on.
    
    Has anyone heard of such a product?  Has anyone used such a product?
    If you have;
    1) How did it work?
    2) How much did you have to use? (I know this is dependant on how
    bad the floor is.)
    3) How much did it cost?
    4) How long does it take to harden/cure?
    5) Is it worth it compared to the old-fashioned way?
    
    Thanks for any info.
    
    -Tony

	The only levelling compound I've ever heard of is for levelling
	wood floors (for filling the cracks and knot holes in plywood before
	laying tile, for example).  But, that aside, I don't think that's
	what you want to do anyway.  It's a heck of a lot easier to shim up
	the strapping than to level a concrete floor.  I just put in a floor
	over an old and very crooked floor.  The trick is to find the high
	spot using a long straight piece of wood and a good level, then mark
	around the walls.  Finally, put down the strapping, checking it with
	the marks on the wall and with the level.  The best thing for levelling
	up to about 1/2 inch is "shim shingles".  These are low grade cedar
	shingles used only for levelling things during the building process.
	Above 1/2 inch you go to plywood and multiple pieces of strapping.  

	--ed/



                       -< Leveling compound for floors? >-

    I'm planning on converting part of my basement into a "family" room.
    I thought of finishing the floor by strapping it and laying rigid
    insulation panels between them, laying down a subfloor, and then
    finishing with either wood or carpet.  The problem is getting the
    concrete floor level.  I have heard of some type of floor leveling
    compound which you pour onto the floor.  It, according to what I
    heard, finds it's own level and voila, you have a perfectly level
    floor to build on.
    
    Has anyone heard of such a product?  Has anyone used such a product?
    If you have;
    1) How did it work?
    2) How much did you have to use? (I know this is dependant on how
    bad the floor is.)
    3) How much did it cost?
    4) How long does it take to harden/cure?
    5) Is it worth it compared to the old-fashioned way?
    
    Thanks for any info.
    
    -Tony

    Most hardware stores carry amoounts of the leveling compaound you
    speak of. I have never used it so I cannot comment. 
    
    Take a look at the instructions and determine if it will work for
    you. 
    
    I would use this anyday (if it works) rather than trying to shim
    (I am essentially lazy)
    
    Merle

The only thing that's going to find its own level on a concrete floor is 
something the consistency of water.  The stuff you're talking about requires
trowelling and wouldnt be any easier than shimming (not to mention it'd
take about 50 boxes to do a room that was off by 1/2" from end to end).

So how far off is this floor anyhow?

--ed/

    Unsure how far off it really is.  The neighbor came over and I got
    to talking about what I wanted to do.  He said the floor could use
    some leveling just by looking at it.  To prove his point he grabbed
    some marbles and dropped them on the floor.  Sure enough, they started
    rolling towards one end of the basement.  Not quickly but consistently
    (he did it a few times).  I'm not sure on how to see how far off
    it really is.  Should I run a string with a level on it from one
    wall to the other at various points in the room and mark on the
    wall where the string levels?  Then bring the floor strapping up
    to that level and continue on?
    
    -TB

1) Measure down from the bottom of the floor joists.  This of course assumes 
that *that* floor is level.  Easiest way to do this is to take two scraps of 
1X3 strapping (or something similar) about 5 feet long, and hold them together
to make a sliding rule, like this:

==============================================
                   =================================================

Grip it in the middle, and wander around the basement poking it against the 
bottom of various joists and adjusting the height until you find the highest 
point.  Now nail the two pieces together.  You can now go anywhere in the 
basement and poke it against the bottom of a joist, and the bottom of the stick 
shows the correct level.  If you were going to go the route of putting down a 
plywood floor over strapping, then once you have the highest point subtract the 
thickness of the strapping before nailing together.  Now the bottom of the stick
shows the level of the top of the strapping, and it will make shimming much 
easier.

Or, 

2) Use a water level.  Get a piece of �" clear plastic tubing, probably about 
25' long.  Go down to the basement, put a bucket of water on the floor, and put 
one end of the tube in the bucket.  You probably want to attach this end to the 
bucket somehow (tape?) or it will keep falling out on you.  You may also want to
add a few drops of food coloring to the water to make it easier to see.  Now 
suck on the other end of the tube until it is full of water.  Put your thumb 
over the end to keep the water from running back into the bucket.  Get down on 
the floor, hold the tubing at about the level of the water in the bucket (open 
end up) and take your thumb off the tube.  The water will find the same level 
here as in the bucket.  Measure from the water line down to the floor and write 
the measurement on the floor.  Do this all around the basement, and you'll be 
able to tell exactly how level (or unlevel) the floor is.  This would be useful 
for shims too, since you could just glance at the measurement on the floor to 
get the shim size.

Paul

    Thanks Paul for a couple of excellent ides!
    I just did a random check of the floor (to become ceiling) joists
    with a level.  They are level and so I'll probably use the "slide
    rule" method.
    
    Another question.
    I notice that these joists are 10-14" on center apart from each
    other.  How come?  I thought all construction uses the 16" on center
    rule of thumb.  No complaints from me, mind you, it makes for
    a sturdy floor.  Just curious to see if this is normal.
    
    -TB

    I saw a "DEAD NUTS" leveling method once on "This Old House". I'm
    no good at drawing pictures on this thing so I'll just try to explain.
    
    
    What they used was a device consisting of a reservoir containing
    water with a long piece of flexible plastic tubing attached.
    
    The way it worked was; they set the reservoir in the center of the
    room at approximately five feet elevation and went to several points
    around the room and marked on the wall at the water level of the
    water in the tube. They then just popped a chalk line between the
    marks and had the exact "DEAD NUTS" point from which to work in
    the entire room.
    
    Once you've established the base line with the water level all you
    have to do is measure up to or down from the chalk line anywhere
    in the room.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    -boB

    .8
    
    Yes     yes     ye     ye    y  y   ..
    					  .
    					   .
    
    
    I have to admit I didn't read the other guys stuff very carefully.
    It also sounds like a lot of soar knees activity.
    
    See ya,
    
    _boB

    A quick question (actually a repeat...no one replied the first time).
    
    We have pine floors in our house that have been painted. With 4
    kids they wear away fairly quickly. Is there a way to protect them
    - can a polyurethane be put over new paint (after drying), or is
    there some very tough paint that we should try?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Thor

I'm not sure if you're asking two questions or one.  I don't know how to protect
finish of the wood.  Polyurethane would probablly help, but if it's already
painted I'm not sure if it will cover.

The second possible question is damage to the wood.  We moved into a house with
pine floors and the bottom line is that pine is a soft wood.  It scratches and
dents.  There's nothing that can be done about this.  I plan on replacing it 
with a harder wood (someday).

-mark

    I have successfully used Dutch Boy 'Urethane' Floor paint. It comes
    in a variety of colors. This product takes longer to dry than paint
    but it seems to withstand the wear. The pine floors in my house
    are 300 years old and seem to be pretty hard.  I would hesitate
    to use regular urethane over the floor since it may discolor when
    it reacts with the paint.

    My first house was an 1850's victorian that had wide pine floors
    upstairs, with years of paint on them.  It took quite a bit but
    I refinished them natural and they looked great and stood up well.
    
    Now I have a newer home with wall to wall (or had).  Because of
    the decor I didn't want oak or maple floors and ended up putting
    pine floors in.  They in turn are holding up fine.
    
    My question is....I know pine is a soft wood, and it you can get
    it in different varieties....what are people doing to 'mark them
    up' or 'make them not hold up well'.....Is it dragging furniture
    when moving it or not using 'furniture cups' under heavy pieces
    of furniture...because both of these would be no-nos
    
    Just curious to avoid any mistakes in the future.   
    
    thanks
    
    -Jay

    A kid drops one of his matchbox toys (What? Our kids? Drop matchbox
    toys?  Never!).  There's an eighth inch gouge in the floor.  Even
    a hardwood building block will do it.  I've dropped logs I was bringing
    up to the woodstove.  When we moved in the previous owners had one
    of those plastic runners on the floor, the kind that have the
    hundreds of little flexable plastic spikes on the bottom to hold
    it to a carpet.  When we pulled this up there was a pattern of hundreds
    of little holes in the pine.  If you use furniture cups, don't use
    the ones with the plastic spikes in them.  I've tried to find the
    carpet bottomed ones that I used to use, but haven't found them
    around here.  So the furniture is slowly sinking into the floor.
    Other then that I have no complaints.
    

    OK folks, this is an area I know a little about, but then a little
    knowledge is a dangerous thing. So all you forestry experts out
    there feel free to jump in and correct me.
    
    In the olden days there were nice BIG pine trees to work with. The
    BIG trees had grown enough to have both dense HEART-wood at the
    center of the tree and soft SAP-wood around the heart-wood.
    
    The heart-wood was often used for flooring (nice wide boards, *sigh*).
    [Aside: pine was used either for the full floor, or in Victorian times 
    in the center of the floor (were it would be covered by a rug) with a 
    more chic wood around the border of the room.]
    
    But nowadays, we harvest pine before it grows large enough to form
    substantial heart-wood. The pine that we buy now is largely soft
    sap-wood. You can still get heart-wood from folks that rescue it
    from older buildings and resaw it for new floors.
    
    So, older homes may have lovely, hard pine floors. But don't count
    on a new pine floor holding up unless you've rescued the wood from
    an older building.
    
    bd

    re:-1
    
    Sounds reasonable...there is quite a difference in everything between
    the way it use to be and today.  I'll probably always say my first
    house was my best house....love those old houses.
    
    re: -2
    
    Think your wrong on the "matchbox" brand....I would believe maybe
    a "Tonka".....My kids actually ride their toys over the floor and
    don't mark it but I dropping a good metal truck would do it that's
    for sure.  Most of the floor is actually for looks more than traffic.
    Because we have an oriental rug and are currently getting a runner
    for the hallway.
    
    

    Nope, I'm talking about the tiny little Matchbox toys.  Drop one
    on my wide pine floor and you have a dent.

    Seeing that the tubing is flexible,and probably will be laying on
    the floor between the bucket and the wall as in .5, and also drooping
    from the bucket from 5 ft. up in the air and the wall as in .7,does
    that make any difference in the measurements? Being a homebrewer,and
    using tubing,I probably should go back and read the Treatise on
    Siphoning.
    
    	Steve
    

    At Spag's, on the hardware wall, I saw a gizmo for a couple of bucks
    that might help.  It's two clear tubes about 12" long that you screw on
    the ends of a garden hose.  It's specifically designed for
    long-distance leveling. 
    
    These days, you can usually find what you want already manufactured
    for less than it costs to kludge it up yourself.
    
    -joet

    re .10
    
    As basic as "WATER SEEKS ITS' OWN LEVEL".
    
    I use the technique every rime I drain the sludge from my hot water
    heater. Before I remove the hose from the water heater I bring the
    other end over and hold it at the same height as the end on the
    water heater preventing any water from draining out of the hose
    onto the cellar floor.
    
    As long as the end of your "LEVELING HOSE" is above the reservoir
    the water level won't change on either end.
    
    Home brew huh?  Yum!
    
    -boB

    Can someone tell me why "Bruce" pre-finished flooring cannot be
    touched up or refinished. I've read this comment more then once
    in this file and are confused. I just purchase some of their C-31
    pre-finished flooring and it appears that it's normal type stain/ploy
    finish. I didn't try it but, it looks as if it could be sanded clean
    like any other finished floor. Can someone please justify the
    statements indicating that Bruce pre-finished flooring cannot be
    refinished or touched up.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    P.S. the stuff really looks nice!!!
    

    I do not know which floor type C-31 is but some of their lines are
    laminated. In other words, you do get solid oak but there is a
    laminated layer of finished oak which dissolves when sanded.  The
    other reason why some of their floors can not be sanded is that
    they use steel threads to hold their parquet together.  This thread
    is close to the surface and does not take well to sanding. I have
    used Bruce floors 3 times in the last 7 years.  My advice is to
    keep them clean and sealed with Bruce floor treatment.  They do
    look good  but my experience is that they do not sand well.  Be
    aware that there are many different Bruce lines along with different
    patterns.
    
    I now use only oak or southern yellow pine T&G flooring - the old
    fashioned way.

    Where do you get southern yellow pine t&g?  What width is it
    and what's it cost?  Also is it as hard to work with (twisted)
    as people say?
    

 Can't say where to get it, but that is my next choice for a floor.  I've seen
several installations ans it look great!  Espcially when simply polyurethaned
without staining.  Its VERY hard (like oak) and therefore very durable.

As for price, I've heard tell its around the same price as oak (around $2/board
foot) give or take a bit.

If I wanted to locate some, I'd start with some of the typical lumber yards such
as Moores, Coldwells (in Mass) or Chagnon's (in Nashua).  Their prices would
probably represent the MOST you would have to pay.  Next step would be to 
contact some places that specialize in wood such as palmer-parker in tewksbury 
or NEHW in littleton.

If you find any good prices, how about posting them here.

-mark

    I've bought southern yellow pine at both Concord Lumber (MA) and
    Moore's in Ayer.  I paid around 1.35 per bd/sq ft 18 months ago
    at Concord Lumber and 1.65 per bd/sq ft at Moore's this past summer.
    It is available in widths ranging from 3" to 12".  Unless you plan
    on drilling/screwing/plugging, I would suggest using 8" or less
    in width.  The wider planks tend to be more prone to bellying and
    are harder to pry into place if you use long planks.
    
    Allow 20-30% for waste depending on your floorplan and your style
    of maximizing wood usage.  I have had very good luck with SYP and
    will be doing over 3 rooms with it next month.  It looks particularly
    good if you drill and plug it with a different wood such as black
    walnut or a dark oak.

Has anyone every installed wide board pine floors? I once lived in
a old house with floors made from pine boards about 10'' wide. Don't
believe they were TG but ship lapped instead. Of course, this is 
not all that uncommon in houses 75 years old or more. Why did this
type of floor fall out of common usage ? Any idea were the materials
can be purchased ? 
    

I've installed wide oak boards (as have others from previous discussions).
Regular pine is quite soft and I promise you'll regret it if you install it
in a volume traffic area.  Southern Yellow Pine is a hardwood (discussed
elsewhere) which can give very nice results.

If I had to guess why people are into the skinny oak ones these days I'd
suggest that possibly the uniformity of it is considered more pleasing.  Who
knows!  For a long time people build magnificant furniture out of oak and then
left it clear or finished it off with that black junk.  It seems that in the
last couple of years people are starting to go back to oak furniture only 
finishing it in clear stains.  They're even beating it with chains to make it
look old.  I guess the T&G oak floors are just the in-thing.  Perhaps they're 
cheaper (ahhh the old $$$).  After all, you can take a piece of wood with a 
bunch of knots and flaws and find some good 2-1/2 inch wide strips in it.  As
for a single wide board, you'd have to throw it away.

-mark

    I really thought some of the leveling technics sited here are great!
    I just wanted to comment on the actual leveling of the floor itself.
    I've seen wood floors on concrete rot very fast.  I would suggest
    the before you put strapping or any wood floor on concrete that
    you seal the floor with a good sealer.  I've used UGL Concrete Sealer
    on the cellar floor when I first built my house, and I still get
    moisture, not any water, but moisture from temperature differences.
    
    This moisture is NOT anything that you can rub your hand on the
    floor and produce beads of water.  In other terms, that is why a 
    dehumidifier in the cellar produces vast amounts of water because
    of the temperature differences and to some degree the moisture retained
    in the concrete inself.  The UGL product as I found out just keeps the
    dry concrete dust from getting out of hand.  I feel the wood you
    put on the concrete would soak up and retain the moisture very rapidly.
    If you have ever put wood on a cellar floor just to store for a
    time, the wood gets musty.
    
    We all know that concrete really conducts the cold from the outside
    and stays cool in the summer as we all know.  So, if you are going
    to heat the basement in the winter, and open windows to get fresh
    air in the summer, beware of the moisture build up.  I would use
    something like Thompson's Water Sealer, or a floor/deck paint to
    keep the moistrue at a minimum.  I am going to finish my basement,
    but after seeing what a friend of mine went through, after the previous
    owner of his house put down wood flooring in the basement, I ruled
    this option right out.  Just one other point and I'll get off my
    soap box.  When you put down this wood flooring, finish or
    underlayment, the bottom of the flooring is exposed to the moisture
    in fairly air tight atmosphere.   You try to keep wood flooring as
    tight as possible and if you use underlayment, the joints are not
    as tight but are further sealed by the strapping at the seams.
    
    Just food for thought!  Good Luck!
    
    ROB
    

    I'm pretty sure Parlee Lumber Co. in Littleton sells shiplap pine,
    up to 16" wide I think.  
    A couple of reasons it's not done now, I'd guess:
    1. As mentioned, pine (local pine, anyway) is SOFT.  It will wear
       and dent very easily.  Oak is the next best thing to an iron
       floor.
    2. Wide boards shrink a lot more than narrow boards and leave gaps
       between the boards.  I'm not sure, but I expect pine shrinks
       more than oak as it dries out, too.  If you can let the boards
       sit around for a couple of years before you put them down you'll
       minimize the shrinkage, but I bet you'll still get gaps, eventualy.

       (For a given species of wood, wide and narrow boards of course
       shrink the same percentage, but with wide boards all the shrinkage
       shows up as single 1/4" or 1/2" gaps, where with narrow boards
       you may get a bunch of almost-unnoticable 1/64" gaps.) 

    Bottom line: narrow oak floors wear forever and the joints stay
    tight if any care at all is used in installation.  
    
    Steve

    I live in a very old house, the 200 year old variety.
    
    About 3 years ago we had a ship lapped pine board floor put in 
    our kitchen.  I LOVE IT.
    
    The kitchen I would call a high traffic area, we have had no problem
    with it.  It has 3 coats of professionally applied urethane on it.
    General maintenance is a light washing every week or two with Murphys
    Oil Soap.  It has a few dents in it from an occasional can falling
    on it but this adds to the charm.  We also try not to walk on it
    very often with high heal shoes.
    
    We liked it so much that we removed several layers of flooring that
    was on the stairs and upstairs hall and had this floor done the
    same way. That was 1 year ago.  Have had no trouble with that wearing
    either.
    
    The ship lapping was done by the carpenter as he was doing the floor.
    We used random width pine.
    
    And by the way, it it a real conversation piece with all that come
    to my house.  It is a beautiful floor and has so much more character
    that the Oak variety.
    
    Judie
    
    

Amazing...  Do you have any kids?

We moved into a house that was 7 years old and had a wide soft pine floor.  The
people who lived there before had no kids AND covered a good portion of the 
floor with a massive rug (strange people).

Anyhow, within *weeks* of living there and riding toys running over the floor
it's all dinged, scratched and all around abused.

re: murphy's oil soap

	if a floor is polyurethaned, what good does MOS do?  at that point 
	you're not even washing wood, are you?

re: polyurethane

	although I too am a fan of polyurethane, I've always wondered what the
	long term effect is on the wood.  I've heard people say many nasty 
	things about it preventing the wood from breathing, etc.

	I've done a fair amount of wood refinishing and have used polyurethane
	on heavy traffic stuff (like tables), but as far as looks and feel, you
	can't beat either a paste wax or oil finish.  I've always wanted to do a
	floor in this type of stuff but know that the maintenance would be
	horrendous!

-mark

Red oak shrinks about 10-11% while drying.

White pine only shrinks about 2-3%

Paul

    REPLY TO .4
    
    Yes I have 2 kids now ages 9 and 12.  I don't allow riding toys
    in the house.  My sons small trucks and things seem to have caused
    no problem.
    
    The gentleman who finished the floor said to clean it only with
    warm water.  I tried that and the floor seemed to come out streaky.
    Since I use Murphy's on lots of other things I gave it a try and
    the floor looks great.  I also use Murphy's on my slate floor in
    the family room, woodwork, occasional cleaning of my oak livingroom
    and dining room tables and cleaning of my pine wood in the family
    room.
    
    I would say any wood floor is going to wear if abused.  I have a
    friend with a hardwood floor that looks disgusting after 2 years
    because of riding toys and rubber soled boots.  
    
    Remember I said I live in a very old house.  The pine just fits
    in well.
    
    Judie
    
    
    

    YOU CAN OBTAIN YOUR WOOD FOR A WIDE PINE FLOOR AT MOST GOOD SAWMILLS.
    MOST PINE FLOORS INSTALLED THESE DAYS ARE SIMPLY BUTTED BOARD TO
    BOARD.  YOU CAN CHOOSE YOUR WIDTH(S) AND HAVE THE SAWMILL MAKE THEM
    UP.  I USED 12, 14, 16, WIDTH BOARDS WITH EQUAL LENGTHS WITH A
    5" BORDER AT THE WALLS.  TO ATTACH THE BOARDS TO YOUR SUBFLOOR
    YOU CAN USE SEVERAL METHODS; USE SCREWS AND COUNTERSINK THE HEADS
    AND FILL THE HOLES WITH PIECES OF CUT DOWELS FOR THE PEGGED LOOK,
    OR USE THE OLD FASHION NAIL ROUTE.  THE FLOOR SURFACE SHOULD BE
    FINISHED WITH A GOOD QUALITY STAIN OF YOUR CHOICE AND FOR DURABILITY
    THE STAINED BOARDS SHOULD RECEIVE SEVERAL COATS OF A HIGH QUALITY
    SATIN FINISH POLYURETHANE. 
    

    re. .6
    I do not "abuse" my pine floor.  If you take an ordinary childs
    hardwood building block and drop it from about 3 feet off the
    floor so that one of the corners hits the floor it will put
    a dent in the floor.  If you happen to have a pine floor that
    is harder than mine then fine, but don't be smug about it.
    We have never had riding toys in the house and our kids (two girls)
    are not rough-housers.  Our pine flooring is just plain SOFT.
    We may replace it someday, but I think we'll wait until the
    kids are much older.
        

      Pine floors do look great. A friend of mine has a pine floor in
    his living/dining rooms. They are great if you like the rustic look
    because pine dents so easily. If I were to install a wood floor
    I would go the extra cost for oak or maple just for the hardness
    of the wood. If you were to ever refinish a pine floor, you would
    have to sand off as much as 1/4 of an inch to get scratches and
    dents out! We have maple floors and had a 13 x 24' living room,
    a 13 x 15' dining room, and 13 stairs with spindles, two landings,
    and a 15 x 4' hallway sanded and finished (3 coats) for ~$475.00
    by Worcester Floor Co. The floors are the first thing people compliment
    us on when they enter our home. HARD wood floors enhance the value
    of a home also.

      Can anyone elaborate on how much harder southern yellow pine is compared
    with the local kind? Also, does it take a stain as well with almost the
    same coloration? 
    
    Thanks...Rob
    
    
    

    I worked with yellow pine when I was in Northern Florida and I can
    say it is quite hard and heavy too.  I found that many times it
    was necessary to drill before I nailed so that the nails wouldn't
    split the piece.  It may be a type of pine, but it is many times
    more durable (harder) than white pine.  I can't comment on the staining
    since I haven't done any staining on yellow pine.
    
    bb
    
    

    
    I installed a Southern Yellow pine floor in my familyroom [16'x16']
    about 9 years ago. The floor looks as good today as the day that
    I put it in. 
    
    We practically live in our familyroom [me, my wife and three kids]
    so we didn't pamper the floor at all. In fact, the door where everybody
    comes in [nobody ever uses the front door, it's just there for
    looks ;)] enters into this room. And kids and people just tramp
    right in with all kinds of goodies sticking to the bottoms of their
    shoes.
    
    If you do end up buying any southern yellow pine, be sure to look
    the wood over before buying it. It seems to have two different distinct
    grain patterns. One has the grain running parallel and appears closer
    to what you would expect, the other is where the wood is apparently
    cut closer to the edge of the tree and has a mottled grain and [in
    my opinion] doesn't look as good.
    
    I stained the floor with Miniwax [early american] and covered that
    with two coats of satin finish polyurethane. It came out beautiful
    and remains beautiful even 9 years later.
    
    Charlie

    re. 13
    
    I am interested in hereing more about wooden floors put over concrete
    basement floors. I have just done this in my basement, which has
    conditions very similar to what you describe (moisture from
    condensation only). The technique I used was to build a 2x4 frame (16 OC),
    and raise this frame up off of
    the floor with 4" lengths of 2x3 nailed every 16". The 2x3 pieces
    were polyurethaned. I then stapled wire mess near the bottom of the 2x4
    frame members and layed in fiberglass insulation. On top of this
    I stapled a sheet of plastic (vapor barrier) and screwed 3/4 plywood
    on top of the whole mess.
    
    From the bottom up, what this amounts to is a 1.5 inch air space,
    insulation, vapor barrier, and then flooring. About 3/4 of the basement
    is floored in this way, the remaining 1/4 is untouched. The 1.5"
    air space opens into the 1/4 of the unfloored basement.
    I hope the 1.5" air space is enough to discourage rot, especially if
    I keep the 1/4 of the basement which is unfloored dry with a dehue.
    durning the summer months.
    Note: This does subtract about 6" from the height of the basement ceiling.
    
    Any thoughts?
                                                          

    
    
    I've read an article back when, which describes the same procedure
    that you did, the only difference is they recommended using Pressure
    Treated wood for the frame and sealing the floor before.
    
    
   BTW, just found this notesfiles and I loving it.

    RE: 14
    
    JUST ONE THOUGHT IS THAT THE VAPOR BARRIER BETWEEN THE ROUGH AND
    FINISH FLOOR WILL PROTECT THE FINISH FLOOR FROM CONDENSATION IN
    MY OPINION.  IF YOU POLYURETHENED THE SUBFLOORING, THAT SHOULD DO
    THE TRICK, BUT I WOULD THINK THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO POLY ALL THE
    WOOD UNDER THE VAPOR BARRIER.  I HAVE FOUND THAT POLYURETHENE ONLY
    REALLY BREAKS DOWN WHEN EXPOSED TO A LOT OF SUNLIGHT.
    
    BOTTOM LINE, IF YOU DON'T MIND LOSING 6" OF HEIGHT IN THE CELLAR,
    SOUNDS LIKE THIS SETUP IS GOOD,EVEN INSULATES THE ROOM MORE.  ONE DRAW
    BACK IS THE EXTRA EXPENSE RATHER THAN JUST PUTTING TILE DOWN.  ITS ALL
    IN WHAT THE PRIORITIES ARE.
    
    RE: 15
    
    MAYBE I AM CARRYING THIS TOO FAR, BUT I WOULD BE AFRAID TO PUT PRESSURE
    TREATED WOOD IN MY HOUSE......MAYBE I WOULDN'T REALLY HURT IN THIS
    TYPE OF USE THOUGH.
                                                           
    ROB
    

Re .0  I installed about 500 square feet of Bruce parquet in an
       addition we built about 2 years ago. I wasn't pleased with
       their "factory" finish, so I added another coat of gloss
       polyurethane. It's been finished for about a year now and
       it's holding up very nicely.

       I think mine was C-31 grade, but I'll have to check. According
       to the place where I bought the flooring the reason why 
       the directions do not recommend applying a finish to it is 
       that some Bruce floors come pre-waxed. Mine obviously wasn't.
       
       - mike g.

    I'd like some opinions about a situation I have with part of my
    new house.  I think I understand it but am interested in other ideas
    as well.
    
    It's with the second floor decking in part of the house that is also
    exposed as the ceiling of the room below, which will contain our
    woodstove.  The construction is 2" tongue and groove decking (I believe
    it's spruce) over exposed 6 x 12 Douglas fir beams (see diagram). 
    
    	==================================================
    	[]		[]		[]		[]
    
    The decking was installed tightly but has since shrunk and now has
    approx. 1/4" space on all seams (pretty consistent in dimension on all
    seams, too).  I assume that this is the result of drying because the
    wood was incompletely cured originally, it seems too be too much space
    to be the result of moisture absorbed from the air during humid spells
    and lost during dry spells, and also too consistent across all boards
    for it to be the result of stock exposed to rainfall before use. 
    
    The question is what we might do about it, or whether to do anything
    about it at all.  We have not yet applied any finish (we are planning
    to use Fabulon), but we are about to.  My own inclination is to apply
    the finish, but keeping the amount dropped into the cracks at a minimum
    (ie, not ladling it in) so that any expansion during summer humidity
    will not be impeded by accumulated finish.  I did wonder if there was
    anything that we might apply to get the shrunken boards to expand
    before finishing them (and ideally, so that they would stay expanded). 
    
    A related question involves finishing the exposed underside of the
    decking.  Because of the woodstove, and the expected resultant drying
    effect, I have been planning to apply a coat of polyurethane finish
    to the bottom of the boards.  Any comments or suggestions about
    that?
    
    thanks - Bruce

All I can say about painting the userside of anything is one of the most 
miserable jobs known to man.  You will drip, get your hands covered with 
the paint and make a terrible mess.  Compounded with the fact that you 
want to do it indoors and with polyurethane sounds like one of those 
jobs you start and then wish you could "hand in and take a C" rather 
than finish it.

-mark

     Unless you are able to seal All of the surface of the boards they
    will still expand and contract as the humidity in you house changes.
    You obviously won't be able to because they are already installed.
    What you have experienced is quite common for that type of wood.
    You should try to seal the wood exposed in the gaps between the boards,
    but putting an excessive amount in won't solve anything.
      Polyurethane should be fine for the ceiling, but why not also
    use it for the floor above? Or, if you really want to use the Fabulon
    for the floor, I don't see any reason why you can't use it for the
    ceiling also. But if it were my money I'd go with the Urethane
    (Zip-Guard) for both.
    					Kenny
    

    I have exactly the same structure in my house, built about 5 years
    ago. I put an oil finish on the ceiling side and urethane on the
    floor. .1 is right, finishing a ceiling is a miserable job. Using
    the cheap sponge brushes worked a lot better than a regular paint
    brush.
    
    The bigger problem, which you probably havent discovered yet is
    the squeaks- those gaps in the floor allow the edges of the boards
    to move relative to each other- you will find all manner of squeaky
    boards as you walk around the floor. I have considered putting some
    kind of sealant into the joints just to stop the squeaks.
    
    I take issue with .2 suggesting that if you could 'seal ALL of the
    surface' you could prevent expansion._ Its just not possible to
    seal the wood. No paint, or varnish or oil is ever going to completely
    seal the wood. The only product thaat comes close is epoxy and then
    it doesnt totally seal. Forget trying- wood is a natural product,
    learn to live with and like its characteristics, youu wont change
    them.
    
    Ron

    I replacing some of the floors in my house.  One room is a hardwood
    floor that my wife and I do not appreciate.  Another two rooms are
    congoleum and the front hall is quarry tile.  And the LR is carpeted.
    In order to get all of these different types of flooring to match
    at a single height to avoid tripping, the contractor put the
    subflooring in at appropriate heights (read multi-level).
    
    I want to put oak hardwood floors in to replace the old hw, congo and
    tile. The options that I see are
    
    	1) rip up all the old subflooring and replace with consistent
    	   width sublflooring, or
    
    	2) put various widths of plywood down over the existing subflooring
    	   in order to make a consistent height.
    
    My problem with option 1 is that it sounds like a &*() load of work.
    Am I wrong?  My problem with option 2 is that the new layers will
    raise the floor by some amount and the hardwood flooring is ...
    what  3/4 inch?  Therefore making a very trippable lip between the
    LR rug and the hw in the den, hw in the DR, and hw in the Front
    hall.
    
    I suppose option 2 could be amended to take up the rug in the LR and raise
    the subflooring there also. 
    
    Can you think of other options? (aside from just leaving it alone)
    
    Thanx
    
    Bruce

I had a similar situation which I solved by tapering the last board 
where the two elevations changed. Of course I happened to be putting in 
wide boards and was able to spread the taper out over around 3 inches.  
If you're putting in narrow oak boards you may want to use a couple.

The point is if there is a taper, nobody is gonna trip.  As for the 
asthetics, it looks fine (at least it did to me).  The onlt other 
solution I can think of is to put in A threshold which will isure that 
someone trips.

I would NOT want to try ripping out subfloors.  There's a reasonable 
chance that they may go under the walls themselves.  If this is the 
case, you'll have no chance completely removing them.  Even if they 
didn't, it sounds like you'd have a hell of a mess on your hands.

-mark

    
    Wanna hear a beaut?
    
    We bought a very small 1820s house that had been remuddled by a
    succession of DIY (Drunken, Idiotic Yahoos).  On looking under the
    edge of the wall-to-wall carpet in the dining room, I found plywood
    under one end and hardwood under the other.  On peeling it back
    I discovered that in order to correct a sagging floor somebody had
    nailed plywood over one end and then in the middle, where there
    was a valley - GET THIS - they poured cement!
    
    

    I'm putting ceiling lights downstairs and to wire them I
    router'd out a groove in my subfloor upstairs from the nearest
    wall to where I drilled down thru the floor to the downstairs
    ceiling.  This will all be covered with the finish floorboards.
    Is this legal?  I've already done this but haven't had it
    inspected yet.  
    

You have to run the wire through steel conduit to insure that no nails can be 
driven into it, then it's legal. 

Paul

    It's legal as long as you cover the groove with something metal
    to prevent nails from the finish floor from penetrating.  Also you
    can't bury a box so that it's inaccessible.
    

    Yes.  It's Post and Beam.
    Well, the wiring inspector came friday.  I couldn't believe it.
    I mean, I know they tend not to look at things very carefully,
    but I installed a new panel in the basement with 8 breakers, and
    he didn't even go in the basement! 
    He came in and asked me if my bathroom outlets were on a GFCI and
    then asked me what one switch was for and that was it.
    
    So, other than the 40 replies I got in an earlier Note here on
    'Installing a secondary panel', I guess I'll never know if I did
    it right.
    

    This was discussed before but I can't find the note.  Can anyone
    tell me where I can get wide (6,8, or 10 inch) T&G oak floorboards?
    (Somewhere in NH or MA).  I remember seeing a note about a place
    in either Lawrence MA or Pelham NH, or Littleton MA (I think).
    Do you know of any mills around that cut T&G oak?  
    
    Dave
    

    I found the note under they keyword "flooring".  New England Hardwood
    in Littleton.  Does anyone know any other places I should try?
    

You might also try Palmer-Parker in Tewksbury.  I know they won't do T&G 
and I doubt if NEH will either.  However, I've heard rumors that 
Coldwell's in Berlin, Ma has a shop and does lots of custom work.  I 
don't know if that include T&G or not.  Give them a call and let us 
know.

-mark

    Has anyone here ever brought boards somewhere to have them
    tongue & grooved?  I found where I can get oak boards but the
    mills I can get it from won't T&G it.  Somewhere in MA or NH.
    Thanks.
    

    Try Anderson-McQuade in Cambridge-- their number is 617-876-3250.
    They told me they could cut 2 3/4" T&G maple for around $8.00 a square
    foot, so they're definitely not cheap.  But they could probably
    do it.
    
    --Katie

    Thanks for the input.  I ended up buying oak boards at
    Bingham Lumber in Brookline NH,  then taking them to a place
    called The Woodery in Lunenberg Mass to get it T&G'd.  The
    total cost was about $2.40/bd ft.
                                            

    I was going to reply to the previous note but I thought this
    may stray from that topic.
    I too am interesting in doing at least one room with wood flooring.
    My question is what to do with the sub-floor.
    I'm sure the existing one is too thin for a wood floor.
    Does the thickness of the sub-floor depend on what type/thickness
    of wood you put down?
    If, say, a 3/4 inch sub-floor in required, can I add to the current
    sub-floor to build it up to 3/4 inch?
    What is the best type of sub-floor material/installation method?
    
    
    John
    

     If you have a realatively new house with w/w, the subfloor
    should be 3/4" plywood. If you have an older home with boards or
    a thinner plywood subfloor, there should be no problem to just add
    plywood to get at LEAST a 3/4" thickness. If you plan to use strip
    oak for your floor then you should have no problem with even a boarded
    subfloor since strip oak is at least 3/4" thick. If you plan on
    using one of the thinner prefinished type wood floors then you do
    need a good SMOOTH subfloor of the type that plywood provides, at
    least 3/4" thick.
      The best material to use for this is plywood called underlayment.
    This is fastened to the floor with underlayment nails (how could
    you guess). These nails have ridges to help keep them from pulling
    out. I have also heard of people using screws with a screwgun. The
    nails should be put into the joists below, and spaced about 6"-8"
    apart. I have done this several times, it works very well and
    is not difficult.

    I have a question regarding reply #1.  If you use screws to hold
    the underlayment, what kind of screws are best?  Will drywall screws
    work or do you recommend something different?  Also does it matter
    if all the sheets of plywood are facing the same way or should you
    try to alternate directions (I read about that somewhere).

    Drywall screws will hold about anything within reason.
    I would say they are more than adequate for your intended use.
    

    Re: .2
    
    You could use screws, but ring nails would be a much quicker (and
    just as effective).  Also, when you use screws there may be a tendency
    to countersink them, meaning that you will also spend more time
    patching with floor leveler.
    
    From what I've been told you should space the subfloor.  I used
    an 8 penny nail to separate sheets when laying 1/4" luan over an
    existing 1" floor.
    
    					Steve

    
    	I was told to space the plywood sheets 1/8" to allow for expansion.
    I'm using flooring nails, and using TEK screws on the corners.  Part
    of the reason I'm using screws is that my wife can use the screw
    gun while I bang the nails.  It'll make the job faster and save my
    wife's fingers!  I was told that CDX also is a good surface for
    the vinyl floor.

     You definitely should stagger the plywood joints, and in addition
    the plywood joints should be staggered from whatever is beneath
    them. If you are putting the plywood directly on top of the floor
    joists then 3/4" t+g is the best. If you are putting the plywood
    over some other subflooring but are going to use 3/4" then t+g is
    the best but isn't usually needed. (it keeps the joints from shifting
    if there is a little give underneath)
      At this time of year you should leave a slight (~1/8") space around
    each sheet of plywood to leave room for moisture expansion during the
    more humid summer months.
    
    Plywood joints should be staggered like this:
    
    |----------|----------|
    |          |          |
    |          |          |
    |-----|----|-----|----|-----|
          |          |          |
          |          |          |
    |-----|----|-----|----|-----|
    |          |          |
    |          |          |
    |----------|----------|
                           
    
    				Hope this helps,
    					Kenny

    Re: .5
    	I disagree that "CDX is a good subfloor for vinyl"; the problem
    is that even though you put the "good side" (the "C" side) face
    UP, CDX can have gaps in it that don't provide good support for
    flexible flooring.   Much better to use is a grade called "PTS",
    which has the gaps plugged & sanded (I don't remember what the "T"
    stands for); this is cheaper than AB plywood, and better than using
    particleboard (which will swell up if it gets wet- very likely in
    a kitchen, for example).
    

    RE: .7

    PTS stands for "Plugged and Touch-Sanded".  This is the official
    description of those football-shaped patched you find in plywood.

    In any event, ask for "Underlayment Plywood".  What you get may,
    in fact, be the same thing you would get if you asked for PTS.

    PL

	A while back, one of my cats decided the carpet was a good place 
	to relieve himself. When I removed the carpet and pad 3 weeks ago 
	it was still damp in this spot. I have repeatedly scrubbed the 
	area with bleach but a faint odor is still present in the plywood 
	flooring. 

	My carpet installer says I have to replace the affected flooring 
	because the odor will remain forever. I'm resisting this because 
	it's in the worst possible spot for replacement (at the bottom of 
	a stairway and against the front entrance)(There's also a wall to
	contend with).

	Does anybody know what I can do to permanently eliminate the odor 
	other than replacing the plywood? I have thought of painting the 
	floor to seal the plywood but don't know if it'll really work.

	Thanks, Dan

    Good luck ! We had a cat that would releave himself in the down
    stairs bathroom if you didn't let him out fast enough. He spent
    a lot time out side. Anyway, that was 8 years ago. Unfortunely
    some of his "relieve" ran under a wall. You can still get an odor 
    from under the sink. About a year ago I tore up the flooring that
    was there and put down a new floor. That helped a lot, but there
    is still a faint odor under the sink. Other then replacing the
    wall I don't know what else can be done. At the present we keep
    a "Stick Up" deoderizer there.
    
    I think your carpet installer is probably right.
    
    Good luck
    
    dave
    

    
    
    Have you tried ammonia?   I was told by a vet that was the only
    way to get rid of the scent. The real issue is, the cat will continue
    to relieve himself there, because he can smell it.
    
    Ammonia gets rid of the smell so even an animals sensitive nose
    cannot pick it up.
    
    good luck.
    
    Ray

	When I first moved to Vermont, I moved into an old, small farmhouse.
	The previous owners had several cats that they housed in an attached
	porch.  What a smell that place had!  It was just a wood frame, wood
	floor porch.  What we ended up using was something we got from a
	feed and grain store that was used to clean/disinfect animal pens.
	I can't remember the name off the top of my head, but I imagine
	if you called around you could find out.  But once that smell gets
	into the wood......

	-gary

re: ammonia

DON'T use ammonia. We had a cat with cystitis and he used the ENTIRE 
cellar as his 'place.' We later discovered that the urine has ammonia in 
it and that's what the cat sniffed for when looking to go. So washing 
down the floor with ammonia confused his sniffer...if you must, use 
diluted washing bleach...'course this isn't the best solution for wood 
floors...

I found a product called 'Odor Disposer' in the local pet shop that uses 
enzymes to effect the 'cleanup.' It comes in a kit with a plastic 
squeeze bottle and several tablets you dissolve in warm water. You soak 
the affected area and let it dry. It is *VERY* effective and can be used 
on every conceivable bodily fluid that creates odors, spilled milk, etc, 
etc. Some places even sell the stuff 'in bulk', each plastic bag making 
about 3 gallons...for vets, kennels, etc...

If you can't find the stuff in your area, send me mail and I'll help you 
get what you need...

Chris

    I purchased an expandable cape in Nashua, NH and am in the process
    of planning to put in the second floor subfloor. I have a few
    questions. First of all, I have been thinking of doing the subfloor
    out of 1 by 6 or 1 by 8 Tounge and groove pine instead of the standard
    3/4" tounge and groove plywood. I would like to know if this would
    provide any tangible advantages when finished, i.e.:added strength.
    I would be putting the pine at 45 degrees to the joists. I am willing
    to put in the additional labor if it is worth it. I have not decided
    on either hardwood floors or carpeting as of yet. The next question,
    where is the best place to run the fhw plumbing from room to room?
    Can it be run under the subfloor? Any help will be appreciated.

    You can also try oil of bergamat(sp?) I have used this stuff some
    time back and recall that it did a very good job. Also leaves a
    nice scent that really lasts 1+ year in my case.
    The use i had was the dirt floor in the crawl space on my house
    I had a cat that did the same thing to me..For awhile I thought
    i would have to dig up the floor to get rid of it..
    
    
    good luck jerry
    

    You're wasting your time with the tounge & groove flooring. Use
    plywood subflooring, two courses (laid at right angles). You'll
    get virtually 0% shrinkage, no warping and easier installation.
    Use construction adhesive to attach the first course to the joists
    AND nail the first course to the joists. Do not use adhesive between
    the first and second courses ... nail only.
    
    Tounge and groove is pretty. But you can't control shrinkage or
    warping. Make your life easier with BETTER modern materials.

    re: .4
    
    I second the Odor Disposer stuff.  We have cats and it works very
    well.  You may need to treat a badly soaked place a couple of times.
    If you can't find it at your local pet store, the manufacturer is:
    
    		Mardel Laboratories
    		Villa Park, Ill.  60181
    
    /Dave

The only reason to use t&g pine would be if the subfloor will be visible
    from below.  Otherwise, there's no advantage.

    
    One easier method is simple white vinegar.  this also covers the
    smell, and won't stain anything.  and will not leave your room smelling
    like vinegar.  An absolute necessity for housebreaking puppies.
    
    

     3/4" plywood is much stronger than 3/4" pine. Triangulation (for
    strength) is automatic with plywood because of the size of the sheet.
    It is also much smoother (for under carpeting) and easier to install.
    One suggestion though, use 3/4" t+g plywood, as it's even stronger
    where the seams pass between joists (unsupported). 3/4" t+g is even
    sufficient subflooring under ceramic tile.
    
    					Kenny

    Thank you for the quick response, I only have one question. Are
    you saying to use two 3/4" plywood layers, or one 3/4" and one
    finish layer?

    Any other opinions out there on technique for plywood subflooring?
    I have also been told that screwing the plywood to the joists is
    preferable to nailing in order not to potentially crack the drywall
    on the first floor ceiling. If you should use nails, what type?
    Ringlock?

     Only one layer of 3/4" plywood is needed for a subfloor over joists
    which are 16" on center.
     As for using nails or screws, if you have access to a good screwgun,
    screws may be faster and they're probably better. I have never used
    screws for a subfloor, just nails, and I haven't had any problems.
    If you use nails, there are special nails just for subflooring.
    As far as cracking the ceiling below, I suppose it can happen but
    I've never heard of it or had it happen to me, and I've done three
    different jobs that you are about to do.
    
      You can notch the top of the floor joists to accept the FHW pipes,
    but put a metal guard over each one (before subflooring) to protect
    them from nails in the future.
    
    					Kenny

	Re: -.1

	I would suggest *NOT* notching the top of the joists for the pipe.
	Future maintenance on the pipes would be virtually impossible.
	How would you get a new piece of pipe in?  Being next to the subfloor
	would make soldering very dangerous (I'm a real pessimist!).  I think
	you might want to either run the pipe though the middle of the joists
	(support and protection), notch the bottom of the joists or below the
	joists (if head room is of no concern).

	Phil

    
    OK here we go again.  I just spent the last hour reading notes 2,
    56, 59, 154, 300, 344, 403, and 417 and still didn't find what I
    was looking for so .......
    
    The subject is hardwood floors.
    
    We just bought a house in California.  It is 34 years old and we
    were told that there are hardwood floors under the UGLY carpet.
    
    Well we took a peek and then in our excitement kept on pulling yards
    and yards of carpeting up........we found an almost brand new hardwood
    floor underneath!  The flooring is NOT tongue and groove.  The nails
    are sunk below the surface (and puttyed over) in the face of the 
    boards.....
    
                      +--------------------+
                      |    *          *    |
                      |                    |
                      |                    |
    
    
    Now here is our problem:
    
      In the living room there is some dry wood termite damage to just a
      few of the boards about the size of a dime.
    
      The hallway is "trashed" the boards have shrunk, and split.  We
      suspect this was the last part of the house carpeted.  Also someone
      used BIG headed nails to hold down the loose boards before carpeting.
    
      I spent 3 days already, will spend another 2 pulling the staples
      that held down the padding.
    
      There are holes around the edge of the floor from the nails that
      held down the tack board for the carpeting.
    
    Now here are our questions:
    
      The wear on the floor is minimal.  Do I still need to sand?  There
      are some scratches (not deep).  Can I sand by hand?
    
      We suspect that the hallway needs to be replaced. (IT is really
      bad).  We don't know the first thing about wood, what kind is
      it?  Do they still sell it?  What the finish was on it?  (Guess
      you all can't answer this one without seeing it.)
    
      What are the finishes to use?  I read all about polyeur..thanes
      (sp?)  but am not convinced that's the way to go.  WHAT IS TUNG
      OIL?  We've seen it everywhere and don't have a clue as to what
      it is.
    
    We would like to do the work ourselves but know nothing about
    sealers, varnishes, sanding, etc. of wood floors.  What about sanding?
    Will it do alot of damage if the sander eventually hits the sunk
    nails?  What's the best way to fill all those little staple holes?
    
    Some real detail on the refinishing of wood floors would be a great
    help!  I already appreciate the advice on sanders and that poly...
    stuff.  But we NEED MORE INFO!!!  Don't seem to be many books on
    the subject at the library either.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    -Gina
    
    
    
    
    The

    TUNG oil is made by our cousin TUNG from China? Would you believe
    from ....
    
    /cal hoe

>          The wear on the floor is minimal.  Do I still need to sand?  There
>      are some scratches (not deep).  Can I sand by hand?
 
    It's very hard to sand and oak floor by hand.  If you don't want
    to rent a drum sander, try a small (power) belt sander.  
    You can't do much without some kind of power sanding tool.
    
>          What are the finishes to use?  I read all about polyeur..thanes
>      (sp?)  but am not convinced that's the way to go.  WHAT IS TUNG
>      OIL?  We've seen it everywhere and don't have a clue as to what
>      it is.
 
    The best finish I've found is Zip Guard Gloss Polyurethane.  Some
    other finishes are Fabulon and Gym Finish which aren't used much
    since polyurethane was invented.  A lot of finishes contain tung
    oil, which is a flat thin finish which I thing is a lot more 
    appropriate on furniture than a floor.  Tung Oil alone won't 
    provide much protection like polyurethane with tung oil will.  
    
>        Will it do alot of damage if the sander eventually hits the sunk
>    nails?  What's the best way to fill all those little staple holes?
 
    Staples make very small holes.  I'd sand them and not bother to
    fill them.  If a sander hits a nail it will either sand the head
    down a little, or make the sand paper explode into little pieces.
     In that case you just change the sandpaper and continue.  It won't
    hurt the sander.
    
    What other info did you want?  If you rent sanding equipment, I
    recommend a drum sander and a belt sander as an edger, rather than
    the disk sander that they may want to rent you to use as an edger.  The
    disk sander will leave a border around the room which will be very
    hard to remove.      
    

I also am planning to pull up carpeting and refinish the hardwood floor
underneath.  I have a living room and dining room floor which are continuous
attached by a small 
hallway.  Kind of like this:


		-------------------------
		|			|
		| L.R.	 _______    D.R.|
		|	|	|	|
		|	|	|	|

I want to sand and refinish the dining room floor and living room floors 
as 2 separate projects.  If I'm careful, can this be done so that where I 
stopped and then started is not noticeable or will there be an obvious line?

>    I want to sand and refinish the dining room floor and living room floors 
>as 2 separate projects.  If I'm careful, can this be done so that where I 
>stopped and then started is not noticeable or will there be an obvious line?
 
    The only problem you'll have is with stain.  Are you staining it?
     If you stain a board to a point, then sometime later on stain the
    rest of the board, there will be a line where it overlaps (some
    amount of the area will be stained twice and will show up as a darker
    line between the 2 rooms. ) 
    It's the same idea as staining clapboards on a house.... you have
    to finish any row that you start.
    Polyurethane isn't a problem.  It won't show where you start and finish.
    Also, sanding will only be a problem inasfar as sanding off the
    stain on the room that's already done. As long as you sand with
    the grain in both rooms, the line won't show.  
    
    If the floorboards run in the right direction you might be able
    to stop exactly at the edge of a board between the 2 rooms.  This
    will hide the light of where you left off.
    
    

	Re .0 ...

	I've used drum sanders three times, on hard pine, softwood (pine?),
	and oak.  I never learned how to avoid gouging.  It's easy to
	say "raise and lower the roller slowly, while moving the machine",
	but this involves bodylearning, like riding a bicycle.  Thinking
	back, I've decided I ruined three floors.  Don't commit quickly
	to doing your own power sanding.  If the floor is really bad, you
	might improve it, but only people born with a sander in their
	hands can do it right.

	I read lately that oak ought to be sealed before varnishing,
	otherwise the finish will be rough.

	I agree with the suggestion to avoid the disk edger.  It leaves
	swirl marks.

	Re .3 ...

	I doubt you can blend two areas very nicely.  You might get
	away with it by skillfully feathering with the sander and
	also feathering with the poly.  If I had to do it, I would
	plan for some kind of visible boundary.  If the house is
	older, it might look like some kind of character in the wood.

	Regards.

    Look for a copy of the sunset book DO IT YOURSELF FLOORING - I found
    it quite useful and informative, and not written at the level of
    a mosquito like msot of the other books.
    -reed
    

    Re: .5 - agree.  I've never managed to find the proper technique
    to do a decent job sanding floors either, and practicing for the 
    first time on your living room is something I wouldn't attempt.
    I suppose it depends on what you call "acceptable", but sanding
    floors is one of those jobs I'll farm out to the pros.

    I went out and rented the drum sander and edger for my dining room
    oak floor. The rental place (Warren Rental in Acton) gave me a one page
    sheet of instructions and a few verbal tips.
    
    I had absolutely no problems and the floor looks perfect. I left
    it the natural color and applied two coats of a satin finish called
    VINYLOID. I plan on doing the liviing room floor once I finish
    remodeling my kitchen.
    
    The real trick is to start with a finer grit sand paper and only
    go to a coarser grit if that is not working. When using the drum
    sander you start at one wall and do 2/3 rds of the length, then
    you switch to the opposite wall and do 2/3 rds again. This gives
    1/3rd of overlap.  I had no problem with the edger leaving gouges
    or swirl marks, again start with the finest grit and only go courser
    if that doesn't work.
    
    A 12 x 12 room only took me the morning to sand and that included
    picking up the machine and returning it to the rental place in the
    next town.

    Who knows, maybe I was born with a sander in my hand but was too
    young to remember.

    Nick    

I didn't have any real problems with the drum sander either.  There are one or 
two un-noticable (except by me) spots where there is a slight gouge, but aside 
from that, the floor looks great.  And we did start with the course paper.  I 
didn't have as much luck with the edger, though.  If I were doing it again I'd 
definitely use my own belt sander to do the edges - it's really tough to avoid 
swirl marks with the circular edger.

Paul

I did a couple of floors when I was in college (co-op dorms).  It took a few
passes to get the hang of it.  I would suggest you practice on a piece of
plywood first, because the first mistake can be pretty bad.  The suggestion
of using finer grits is a good one, too.

    
    re: sanding
    
    	Just had my kitchen/pantry/hallway done...we lifted the old
    armstrong floor and there it was..a practically perfect floor..
    Just so happened that our tenant was a floor refinisher..well he
    handled the big machine and I did the edges with the disk sander..
    here are some tips that he gave me...he used a coarse paper then
    medium and then fine on all the machines..no swirl marks at all
    with the disk sander..we coated the floor with a satin poly..
    three coats in all..he says the satin dosen't stink compared to
    the gloss and he was right..you have to buff each coat of poly after
    it dries..and about the blending..If you are doing one room at a
    time and then going to another room, his advise was to only put
    one coat down around the joining area..then when you have finished
    the other room, blend the coats together..we had to do this and
    it worked out fine..the floors look great..the machine was really
    noisy though...and find those nails or the sparks will fly..
    
    						bill..g.
    

    re  sanding 
    I found the biggest factor to be the drum snader itself.  The first
    time I rented one I had some trouble getting started and you felt
    like you had lifted weights for a while.  Fortunately the floors
    had just been installed so I had to take quite a bit off.  I never
    dared use the coarse paper and only used many passes (needed practice
    anyway) with the medium and then finished up with fine.
    
    The second time the drum sander was a smaller lighter weight unit.
     It did just as much work but what a breeze to use.  I don't remember
    to many problems with swirl marks but I'm about to re-finish a couple
    of rooms and since I'm not taking much off, I think I'll use my
    belt sander.  I won't hesitate to do my own sanding.  It's one hell
    of a lot cheaper.

    
    	I am getting ready to lay hardwood oak floors in a hallway
    	and am wondering what type of nails are the best suited for
    	this type of flooring. The other areas of the house that  have
    	oak floors I can see what looks like 8 or 10 penny "cut" nails
    	poking through. Any words of wisdom?
    
    
    /Kevin

    I put down a floor with cut (wrought iron?) nails and it looks good,
    but the nails don't always stay down too well.  I suggest gluing
    the boards down in addition to using cut nails.
    
    I also put down a (wide) oak floor using countersunk sheetrock screws
    and birch plugs.  That came out really good.  I assume you're using
    2 1/2" oak strip flooring?  Or is this wide oak?
    

    I used cut nails when I put my hardwood (oak strip 2 1/2") and would
    NOT do it again.  THey are tough to nail, don't lend themselves
    to pre-drilling (tapered) and don't hold worth a damn.  I always
    thought that's what you use.  In fact they're called flooring nails
    if I remember right.  Well, it's only because in the grand OLD days
    of wood floors they didn't have what we have now.  I wound up stripping
    the nails off a pack from the nail gun which I used for the majority
    of the floor and using them for the edges where I couldn't get in
    with the nail gun.
    
    If yo want the look of the cut nail, nail it down securely with
    good quality 'screw' or twist nails or some come with a coating
    that heats up with the friction of being driven and get 'glued'
    in.  Then sprinkle the cut nails so that they are visible.  I can't
    imagine doing this on a floor, maybe wide pine, but I've seen it
    done on a wall and it looks good.  Just don't count on the cut nails
    for holding power.
    
    Be sure the sub-floor is really secure.  I tore up the linoleum
    from the kitchen floor, pulled all the nails the builder put in
    and used screw nails on the sub-floor 3/4" ply,  was real careful
    to put a nail into the joist wherever the flooring was over it and
    the damn thing still moves in a couple of spots.
    
    If I had to do over again ...
    
    pull up the sub floor wherever I could and use an adhesive
    screw it down with sheet rock screws
    then nail flooring well as above.
    
    Oh well, next time ...

    There's another note on putting down hardwood floors someplace else
    in this file.
    I assume you don't want exposed nails.  If you do, then I don't
    have any particular suggestions for that.  Typically though, 
    hardwood floors are nailed down by nailing at an angle through
    the tongue:
    				    /nail
    				   /
    ----------------------------- /
    |				|/
    ----			/----
        |		       /    |
    ----		      /	-----
    |				|
    -----------------------------

    Use cut flooring nails, with the wide cross-section parallel to
    the tongue.  You can rent machines to do this nailing, or you can
    do what my uncle did - drive every nail by hand, and finish off
    with a nailset to get the nail down even with the surface.  He
    also pushed each strip of flooring into place with a small jack
    before nailing it, to be sure he didn't get any cracks between
    the boards.  He is also a very patiend man....
    
    The square form of the cut nails takes the place of drilling - 
    instead of pushing the fibers aside, the square form punches
    them off.
    
    I don't know what went wrong with .2, so the nails didn't hold.
    I took up a porch floor last summer, put down with cut nails,
    and their resistance to extraction was incredible.
    
    

A friend of mine has a house with wide floor boards that were surface nailed 
and it looked great.  Then after around 10 years he needed to refinish it.

No one would touch it saying it'd reck their machine!  Anyone who was in the
mill 10 year or so ago surly remembers people having to countersink every nail
by hand before sanding.  If you use those fancy cut nail (like on my friends
floor), you CAN'T countersink on a hardwodd floor because the head is so wide.

-mark

    I just got done installing 3 rooms of oak hardwood flooring and
    I rented a floor nailing gun for $7.00 a day. This manual nailer
    does a beautiful job of blind nailing flooring strips. The nails
    for the tool are fairly expensive ($12.00/box/300 sq. ft.) but it's
    the best way to go. I strongly suggest using the proper tool for
    the job. Of course this only applies if you want the, "Hey where
    are the nails", look. Otherwise use a screw nail and plug it.
    z

    Thanks for all the feedback! The floors are narrow oak, and no
    I don't want the nails showing. I'm not in any real hurry to 
    finish the project, so I was going to set each nail by hand, but
    I think that I will look into the nail gun approach. Does anyone
    else know anything about using some sort of "jack" to ensure a
    tight fit between the oak strips before you nail them down?
    
    /Kevin

    in re a jack
    
    I used a screw driver. Drove it into the sub-floor and used the
    screw driver as a small pry bar. Floor is nice and snug.

    
    
    				herb    

Don't worry about a tight fit, especially if you're putting it in soon.  I put 
ours down last summer, nice and tight, and now there are tons of cracks because 
of shrinkage.  You don't notice them unless you're looking for them.  And 
they'll be tight again this summer.  If you made them real tight in the winter,
you might have expansion problems in the summer.

You don't need jacks or anything.  The hammer you get with the nailer has a 
rubber pad on the back side, so you just bang the pieces up tight with the 
rubber mallet.  For warped pieces, just start at one end and work down, the 
toenails pull it in.  For slightly worse pieces, standing on it to hold it in 
place while I snugged it in with the mallet worked fine.  The really warped 
pieces I cut up and used on the ends.

Paul

One thing that will make the job go about 10 times faster:  Don't set up one 
piece at a time.  Set up a rack of pieces to go in, the full width of the room 
and 10-20 strips deep, about a foot away from the flooring that's already nailed
down.  Get all the end pieces cut, and have everything set up so you have about 
50 strips of flooring that only need to be moved about a foot and then nailed 
in.  Then pick up the nailer in one hand and the mallet in the other, and go to 
it.  It's fun once you get into the swing of it.

Paul

    The screwdriver/chisel in the sub-floor method works well.  Also
    when you're in batch mode, be sure to tap the thin end of the strip
    (on the tongue side) so that the piece of wood butts up firmly
    against the previous piece of wood that's on the same strip.
    
    		      |-----------------------|
    |--------------|  |G                     T| <--- swing to the left
    |G            T|  |_______________________|
    |______________|_______________________________________
    |                                   |                 |
    |___________________________________|_________________|
    
    -al

    RE .3 holding power
    
    Actually I didn't test the holding power.  I felt that a straight
    tapered nail like that wouldn't hold worth a darn.  My apologies.
    
    However,  I was also using the nailer.  Worked great till I got
    close to the wall and ran out of swinging room.  Then I started
    with the cut nails.  Problem was the nails kept splitting the tongue
    off the board.  When I went to fit the next groove it wouldn't come
    up snug.  Also those nails are so HARD I dulled 3 nail sets in about
    2 minutes!  After about 30 minutes of this grief and a pile of
    firewood, I began stripping the nails off the pack for the nail
    gun.  They worked great.
    
    Snugging up.  I got the boards just as tight as I possibly could.
    I think this was august if I remember right.  The critical thing
    is to leave a gap along each wall that the molding will cover.
    
    This was back in '76.  Now it all comes back.  I highly recommend
    the nailer and hammer.  Use their hammer.  Don't try to save a penny.
    These nails are coated if I remember too.  They are also relatively
    good quality nails, (save the nail gun), thus the price.  All in
    all, well worth the money.
    
    -fred

    When you get to close to a wall to use the nail gun, you do have
    to do the blind nailing by hand. Someone mentioned that he(she)
    had problems with splitting the tongue out. This was also happening
    to me until I got my rechargeable drill, put in a 3/32's bit, and
    pilot holed each hand installed nail. Worked great and with no more
    splitting.
    

I think I may have brought this up before, but what the hell...

Which comes first, the flooring or the baseboards?  I've noticed in many houses
the baseboards are put in first!  This insures that even if the floor settles
there won't be a gap between the floor and them.  On the other hand, it requires
a must more careful fit to get things to butt up properly and leaves no room
for error.

opinions?

-mark

>        RE .3 holding power
>    
>    Actually I didn't test the holding power.  I felt that a straight
>    tapered nail like that wouldn't hold worth a darn.  My apologies.

    I have.  My living/dining room has these.  They don't hold.
    

    Floor first, then the baseboard.  A vertical crack will be more
    obvious than a horizontal one; besides, the odds of the floor
    "settling" are minimal - where is it going to go that the wall
    and baseboard won't go too?
    And you want to leave a small space (1/4") around the edge for
    floor expandsion/contraction anyway, which the baseboard covers
    up.

    .14, .16:
    
    And if you put the baseboard down first, how can you cover the nails
    along the very edge of the wall, where you can't nail through the
    tongue (or groove)?
    
    Dick
    

    re .13 pilot holes
    
    Even with pilot holes I was still sptting the tongue using cut nails!
    
    re baseboard first.
    
    You don't want to leave a 1/4" gap around the perimeter, you MUST
    leave the gap.  When the floor expands and contracts, which it WILL,
    you either have a gap or the floor buckles or the walls get pushed
    out depending on the moisture content when the floor was installed.
    Wood lives and moves.  It don't die like us.

>        Wood lives and moves.  It don't die like us.

    My floor died.
    Wood dies when it dries out 100%.  If it does that too fast, it
    cracks.  If you have dry heat in your house (like a woodstove)
    wood will die faster than with moist air.  
    
    The tires on my truck expand/shrink with the temperature.  Those
    are dead too.
    

    What the experts do if the baseboard is already installed is this:
    They cut the last strip on an angle lengthwise and force the
    point into the baseboard.  So even with expansion and contraction
    you will not see a gap.  This requires a good table saw.  The
    last TWO strips must then be face nailed using 8 penny finish
    nails with predrilled holes.
    
    				|
                      ---->     |B B
    |----------------------/    |A O
    |_                    /     |S A
      )                  /      |E R
    |-                  /       |  D
    |__________________/        |
                                

    You can get a face nailing tool that is essentially the same as the toe
    nailing tool except with a 90� working angle instead of 45�.
    
    This might save your nail sets.
    
    __Rich

    How are portable belt sanders for floor sanding? I have several
    hardwood floors that need refinishing, and aren't in incredibly
    bad shape.. mostly I'll just be taking off the old finish, with
    some small areas needing a bit more work; I think I'd rather go
    buy a belt sander than rent a drum sander, because then I can do
    things at my own pace.. and I think I'll feel a lot more "in control"
    with the belt sander..
    
    Anybody violently opposed to using belt sanders?
    
    ...tek

...a belt sander will work fine.  Just keep in mind that using it will take you
three weeks on your hands an knees to do what you could do in an afternoon 
standing up with a drum sander.

Paul

     
    re.14
    
    You can rent a belt sander that is 6" wide and 10" long that can
    be used standing up. Taylor rental carries one. It will take about
    3 hours to sand a floor with this.

    I would be very concerned about goughing (sp) the floor with a standard
    belt sander. It is very easy to twist a little and then you have
    a hole. I think you will be happier with a floor sander.
    
    Jim

    Ok, here's the poop:
    
    a.) The belt sander does just fine, but even with 40 grit paper
    	it takes a long time if you have any cupped boards (like I
    	didn't think I had...)
    
    b.)	The belt sander is unlikely to gouge if you are reasonably
    	careful; the floor sander will probably leave ripples in the
    	floor unless you are very skilled.. but if you're reasonably
    	careful, the ripples are about unnoticeable.
    
    c.) The belt sander is dynamite for sanding any filler. Absolutely
    	incredible.. 
    
    d.)	Don't try to apply zip-guard with a roller... bubble city.
    
    e.)	Buy lots of tack rags. Send any housemates away. Always make
    	sure the floor sander is OFF before you plug it in (boy, I
    	betcha that thing wouldn't stop at the wall on the way to
    	your fron yard!). 
    
    ...tek, who survived, but ended up renting a floor sander.
    

    I will be finishing my basement soon. It has a smooth, dry cement
    floor.  I was planning to build a subfloor consisting of 2x4 pressure
    treated lumber laying flat, rigid insulation between them, and a
    plywood surface.  This would be covered by padding and carpeting.
    A carpenter recently told me of a product that I can use instead
    of my original plan.  It is called HOMOSOTE 440.  From what he
    describes, it is some sort of composition board (not regular homosote),
    comes in 4x8 sheets, can be glued to the cement with construction
    adhesive, and is waterproof and even offers a certain amount of
    insulating value (although I don't know how much).  It sells for
    about $15 a sheet, but must be special ordered; nobody around here
    has it in stock.  He said it is designed specifically for this purpose
    but he has also heard of it being used as sheathing for exterior
    walls.
    
    Has anybody ever heard of this stuff?  Any experience with it?
    Is it as good as I've been lead to believe?  Certainly it would
    be easier and cheaper to do that my original subfloor plan and will
    give me 1.5 to 2 inches of extra head room in the finished room.
                                                             
    Comments are welcome.

I've been thinking about how to best frame the floor in my new addition and
I'm sure I'll get lots of opinions here.  8-)

Consider the following section:
	
			  +-------------+	^
			  |             |     2-1/2	
			  |<----12----->|	v
	------------------+		+--------------

The jog is 12 feet wide and 2-1/2 feet deep and the main wall is 12 feet from 
the main house.  Naturally I'll be framing the floor with 12 foot 2X10's, but
I'm wondering about crossing to the end of the jog.  The easiest thing would be
to run a bunch of joists 14-1/2 feet long but I don't like the idea of the 
springiness of joists that long.

What I thought of doing instead was running a beam (2 or 3 2X10's) across the
jog and framing all the way across with 12 footers and run some short 2-1/2 
footers in the jog.

Sound reasonable?  Although this effectively would give me an unsupported span
of 12 feet, it "feels" to me that this would be stronger than the 14 foot long
joists.

btw - this will be under a kitchen and I'd like to be able to tile above it, so
	I plan to use 3/4" T&G for the sub-floor.

-mark

    I'm no builder, but would it make sense to just double up the joists
    in this 2.5' span?  Sounds like you wouldn't have to double up more
    than 2-3 of them.
    
    Phil

    It is very hard to come by and is an all time favorite of modle
    railroaders for use as a base for the tracks. This stuff will
    amaze you with the amount of dust it creates when cut with a saw.
    I havent used the 440 material but the regular homasote dosent do
    real well under humid conditions.
    I wouldent rate it as my top choice in the application you have.
    I would opt for a styrofoam insulator as the cost/effectiveness
    ratio is much better. 
    That price they quoted you dosent sound a bit out of line though.
    
    -j
    

Don't know...

-mark

Can you put a support post in the basement under the jog in the wall?  Your 
idea of making a beam to cross the space is a good one, but I don't think it 
will be strong enough over a 12' span.  If you could put a lally column in the 
middle of that span, you'd be all set.  Or you could put the support beam under 
the joists, instead of level with them, and get longer joists laying on top.

Also, I don't think your floor will be stiff enough for tile.  I'd at least use 
2x12s instead of 2x10s.  Our kitchen floor is a 12' span, and has 2x12s 12"oc, 
with 3/4" t&g and another 3/8" on top of that, and we still had the grout crack 
out in a couple of places.  You can buy 1-1/8" t&g plywood, which I would use 
if I were doing it again, then you don't bother with other underlayment and 
it's much stiffer than two layers of plywood.

Paul

I really don't want to go with the lally column cause I hate to put a post
where someday I may not want one.  I do like the 2X12 idea though and I suppose
using those I could span the 14-1/2 feet.  The only negative is the extra $$$'s.

-mark

    Can anyone tell me which is the more common stock to use for Oak
    flooring red or white Oak? 
    
    /Kevin

     In this area the most common is probably red, but it is very hard
    to tell the difference especially when sealed. The normal variations
    in color easily overlap between the 2 types. The major difference
    between the two is that each pore in red oak has a little hair-like
    thing in it called a tyloss. It tends to fill the pore and make
    the wood more waterproof and closed-grained. If the wood is unfinished
    and you look at both types at the same time it's pretty easy to
    tell the difference, otherwise it's not.
    
    					Kenny

>>> The major difference between the two is that each pore in red oak 
    has a little hair-like thing in it called a tyloss. It tends to 
    fill the pore and make the wood more waterproof and closed-grained. 
    


	Are you sure?  I always thought white oak was preferred for marine
	use because of it's greater water resistance.


George

    Re: .1
    Your comments about Homosote seem accurate.
    However, I believe this Homosote 440 stuff is quite different from
    the regular homosote.  I still haven't actually seen the stuff,
    but I am picturing it being more like plywood or particle board
    in consistency.  Doesn't Anybody know about this stuff?
    
    Or am I hallucinating again???

      It's very possible I have that backwards. Sorry if I do, but the
    rest still applys.
    
    					Kenny

    2x12's over 14 1/2 feet would be fine.

    ref. .3,.4
    That was backwards, white oak is the type which has tyloses within
    its vessels. red oak does have tyloses but, the number per centimeter
    is substantially lower then white oak. Thats why boats, whiskey
    barrels, etc.,. are made from white oak. If they were made from
    red oak they would weep/sweat water throughout the structure. White
    oak tends to have large Rays within its cell structure which may
    translate into a funny skid mark across the surface of the wood.
    Basically the two woods are great for flooring. I personally like
    to use red oak because I feel it has a nicer grain transfer from
    late to early wood but both types are a good choice.
    
    B.D.
    

    Here are some allowable spans for lumber with a Young's modulus of
    1,200,000 lb/in� which is typical for the species and grades of lumber
    that you will find in joist material.  These are the limits based
    upon a maximum deflection of (span length)/360.

    For a live load of 40 lb/ft� (standard for 1st floor of dwellings):

	joist size	spacing		maximum span

	  2 x 10	  12"		   16' 1"
	  2 x 10	  16"		   14' 9"
	  2 x 12	  12"		   19' 5"
	  2 x 12	  16"		   17' 9"

    For a live load of 50 lb/ft� (not sure of applications)

	joist size	spacing		maximum span

	  2 x 10	  12"		   15'  2"
	  2 x 10	  16"		   13' 10"
	  2 x 12	  12"		   18'  3"
	  2 x 12	  16"		   16'  9"


    So, for your application, you could safely use 2 x 10s spaced 16" o.c.
    for the entire span.  If you wanted a little extra stiffness, you could
    space them 12" o.c. across the jog.  2 x 12s would be overkill.

	I put white oak flooring down in the first floor of my house.
	It looks very nice.  I also put red oak counter tops and 
	cabinets in my kitchen.  It's real hard to tell the difference
	even with the two of them right together.  I even had to do a
	little customizing work on the counters/cabinets and used some
	of the left over white oak.  You REALLY can't tell the difference.

	The reason I used the white oak for the flooring was purely a
	matter of availability.  My local sawill had some dry roughcut
	that I bought and took to a finish mill all for about 1/3 of what
	it would have cost to buy the already milled red oak.

	By the way, white oak is used for ship building and is quite 
	waterproof.

	-gary

	

I'm not really concerned with the loading limits, but rather the flexibility.
if you go into almost any room in a house and bounce a bit, you'll feel the
floor flex even though it's well within the structural limits.  If that was a
tile floor, you probably just cracked a tile or some grout.

As Paul pointed out in an earlier reply, it takes significantly more strengh (ie
rigidity) to adequately support a tile floor and it's that strength I'm trying
to achieve.

-mark

Using the standard span tables will give you a floor that won't collapse and 
won't bounce like a trampoline, but if you like a FIRM floor, or if you need 
one, as in the case of tile, it's just not enough.  For example our living room 
floor is a 15� foot span, and has 2x12 joists 12" on center.  According to the 
tables, 2x12's on 12" centers can span 19' 5", so the floor is technically 
quite overbuilt.  16" centers would technically have been fine, or 2x10s on 12" 
centers.  But even with the overbuilding, we still have to put the stereo in 
the corner, or records will skip if you walk across the floor.  And if you 
bounce up and down a bit in front of the bookcase, you can see the top of it 
sway.  To me, that's not stiff enough.  If I were building it again I'd special 
order 2x14's.  It probably would have cost me an extra $100 or so, but that's 
noise when considering the cost of the house.


Paul

    A friend has a problem regarding sliding glass doors!  The slider
    is old 4-8 years old and isn't very well sealed as far as keeping
    the draft and dampness out! The problem is...just inside the door
    there is a hardwood floor!  The piece of board that runs right up
    against the frame of the door came loose.  When the board was removed
    he found that the sub-floor (plywood) had rotted through and the
    remaining edges are damp!  Should the entire hardwood floor be torn
    up to lay a new sub-floor or just go back far enough to find solid
    floor and lay in a piece of the same thickness plywood?  How or
    rather,can I get to the rest of the wet wood that lays under the
    door without removing the slider?
           
                                               Thanks,
    
    						     John

    I'd just replace what is damp back to the next logical point.
    I did this when the upstairs bathroom sink leaked, then laid
    new flooring down. holding fine so far.
    
    knock on wood.
    
    Mark
    
    ps. John, got any kin in Tennessee ?

     
       If he does, I'll bet they all carry big knifes.....his family
    is known for BACKSTABBING ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! SWEET talking is also
    a hell of a trate....You ought see the welching that goes on...
    would choke a horse !!!!!!!!

    There may be a lot of Waters' here in New England .......
    
    I didn't say we were liked;-)!
    
    Believe it or not...this guy is my friend!  Believe me I don't need
    
    enemies with him around!
    
    							J. Waters

dumb question:  If your floor had 'never been used'  why sand?
What does 'zip-guard' do?

    I recently purchased a 100+ year-old colonial.  Prior to moving
    in, I was aware that many (if not all) of the floors had slopes
    and tilts to them, but after moving the furniture in, it became
    clear how much they were actually sloped.
    
    My question is this:  for those of you that have experienced this,
    how did you reconcile it?  Did you leave the furniture as is, sloping
    with the floors, or did you level the furniture?  If the latter,
    is there any good method or material available to do it with? Any
    advice will be greatly appreciated.
    
    Ian

    The remedy depends on the magnitude of the slope.  In one of our
    first-floor rooms we placed 2 screw jacks under the beam supporting
    the side of the room which sloped and raised it by 1/4" increments
    every 2 weeks until the floor was 2" above its starting point. 
    We had been forewarned that the plaster might crack and it did,
    but we had planned for that contingency.  This was an interior wall.
    
    Because we did not wish to disturb the foundation a different method
    was used in the kitchen.  There we ripped up the old floor and placed
    new joists across the room.  At the low end the new cross members were
    placed on top of the old joists and then they were placed in notches
    cut into the old joists the depth of the beam at the high end. 
    This floor was "out" about 4" in a 12' span.  The sketch below
    is a rough representation of the technique.

    
                |  |               |  |
        ---------------------------|--|--   Top view
                |  |               |  |
    
    
                                   Peg - DTN 336-2421

    

    You can buy adjustable "feet" to apply to the legs of your
    furniture at most hardware stores.  Some are also padded
    with felt or a similar material so your floors won't get
    scratched.  A couch with a four inch dip at one end won't
    be helped by little feet though - you gotta move the couch.
    I know.
    
    -k
    

    
    I have an 87 year old colonial and its floors tilt too, just one
    of the "joys" of owning an older home!  Having grown up in old houses,
    you get used to nothing being square - I guess leveling wasn't too
    important or precise back then.  My floors aren't off by a lot,
    but drop a marble in the center of a room and it will find the
    lowest point.  Because they aren't terribly sloped we ignore it,
    cracked plaster is almost guaranteed if we try to level them and
    old horse-hair plaster is no fun to deal with.
    
    If your floors are off alot you can try leveling as mentioned in
    a previous note, or leave it alone.  After a while you don't even
    notice it.  Just make sure your refrigerator and washer is level
    or they won't work right.
    
    Conni

    Most of my floors aren't too bad.  I sometimes put those caster
    cup thingies under only the "downside" legs of a piece of furniture,
    or use wooden shingles under things like bookcases.  Much over 1/2" 
    though and it gets to be a problem shimming, because the shims have 
    to be so high they get really noticable.
    Mostly, live with it and think of the slopes as "charm and
    character".  A little judicious jacking and a few new support 
    posts may help keep the problem from getting worse.
    
    Anybody remember building 3-6 before they leveled the floor?  The
    slope must have been over 1" per foot in some places!  Having a
    rolling desk chair there was very interesting.

    I'd like to sand my wood floor and refinish it.  It was done a few
    years ago and does not need a major redo.  Two questions:
    
    - Has anyone tried a belt or orbital sander instead of the mongo
      machine for light removal?
    
    - Has anyone heard about/tried using a squeegee to spread the finish?
    
    
    Chris

    I just refinished my living room and entrance-way floors using the
    large floor sander and edge sander for the living room and a small
    belt sander and the edge sander for the tough places in the 
    entrance-way. My floors were even but just needed to be cleaned
    down.
    
    For the $50 plus sandpaper it cost to rent the machines it was well
    worth it. For the most part you work standing up as opposed to kneeling
    with the belt sander, this tends to save the knees and back. Without
    the edge sander I don't think you could get close enough to the
    walls and you'd probably burn out an orbital sander trying to do
    the edges. I think you really get your rental-dollars worth out of
    these machines.

    I put my finish down with a wide brush, but it was murder on the
    knees. A roller on a pole would probably produce too many air bubbles
    but one of those painting pads that can be attached to a broom stick
    might work out real nice.
    
    Nick

    I've just had an vinyl floor (Armstrong) installed in my kitchen.
    Question: How do you get it really clean?  We've tried
    the Mop n' Glow type cleaners and they really don't do
    a very good job.  Any tried and tested methods that work for you?  
    
     

    re: .1
    		believe it.
    
    re: .0
    		We also just had an Armstrong floor installed in our
    kitchen, and are experiencing the same problems: it always looks
    dirty.  The Armstrong cleaning stuff is very good, though, and it
    seems to be the only thing that will get the floor anywhere close
    to clean.  It is expensive - $10.25 for a half-gallon, but it is
    the only thing that works.  If we had to do it over again we would
    get an easier-to-care-for floor, although we like the colors of
    this one a lot.
    
    Marc

    Us folks in the old industrial cities (Buffalo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh)
    have been exposed to a fantastic cleaning product called Murphy's
    Oil Soap.  It is a 100% natural soap made from vegetables.
    
    The product is excellent for cleaning all surfaces where the looks
    of the finish is important.  We use it regularly for cleaning our
    vinyl flooring and for annual washing (yes, that's right) of all
    wood finishes (furniture, woodwork, etc.).
    
    You may have to look for it your locale, but it is worth the effort.
    
    Randy
    

    The expensive stuff is called Once 'N Done, and is worth the $12.00
    a gallon price. It does a fantastic job dissolving grime, leaves
    a gleaming shine, and doesn't require a rinsing.
    
    This stuff is super concentrated (1 cup per gallon --- and we
    use only one gallon each time we mop our 13' X 13' kitchen floor)
    and since we only wash the floor once a week, a gallon will last
    about 4 months. 

> The expensive stuff is called Once 'N Done, and is worth the $12.00
> a gallon price.
    
    Where do you buy the stuff for $12.00/gallon?
    
    Marc

I am about to replace the carpeting in my house. When walking over some places
in the house there are squeaking sounds coming from the "plywood (?)" board
underneath the carpet. Before the carpet installers come and install the new
carpet and padding (old carpet removed by this time) ... 

How do I get rid of this squeaking sound? 

	. Do I nail the boards again?
		. RE:.1 underlayment nails?
		. RE:.4 ring screws?
		. Another special type of nails?
	. Do I replace the "plywood (?)" board?

Suggestions ... recommendations ... experiences ...

    I would definately use the drywall screws. Tear up your old carpeting
    and start with a couple of screws in the squeaking area, then test
    it out by walking on it. Repeat until the squeaks are gone. 
    
    Charly

    I second the drywall screws.  I assume you don't have an "official"
    drywall screwgun for putting them in, but a variable-speed drill 
    with a 39-cent #2 Phillips bit works just fine.  Personally, I 
    prefer a variable-speed drill to a drywall screwgun, anyway.  You'll
    probably want about 1 3/4" or 2" screws.  A little plastic container
    of 12 will cost you about $1.49, and a box of 1,000 will cost about 
    $10-$12.  (Those numbers may not be quite right, but there's a 
    definite price break when you buy in bulk.)

    I picked up a little du-dad at the lumber store the other day that can
    turn your electric drill into an "Official" Drywall screw gun. It costs
    about $10. 
    
    It's a phillips head screw bit mounted in a "depth clutch" similar to a
    real drywall screw gun. As you're putting the screw in, the clutch
    disengages just after the screw has seated itself below the surface. I
    haven't had a chance to really try it yet but it appears to work as
    advertized for the couple of screws that I tested it with. I think
    it'll come in handy for hanging sheet rock where stopping just below
    the surface is critical, I'm not sure I'd use for other general
    applications though. 

    Charly

    Sears has a similar gadget for drills. It is just a phillips bit
    inside a little plastic sleeve with a spring. Depending on how far
    into the chuck you install the bit is how far the bit will go into
    the surface. I have been hanging a lot of sheetrock with it and
    it works very well. I think they only come in a kit with four bits,
    two phillips and two flat. I bought it over a year ago and I don't
    think it cost me more than $5.

    	This note has realy gone off on a tagent.
    
    But seeing as its here.....
    
    	The problem I've found with variable speed drills as screw guns
    is that they have very little power at low RPMs. The best gadget
    I've found is my cordless Makita drill/screw gun. They call it a
    drill but the RPMs are to low for serious drilling (250/400 rpm
    I think). But it's got unbeliable TORQUE. Its cordless with a 1
    hour recharge battery which can be removed and replaced with a fresh
    one while recharging. 
    	I picked it up at spags a couple of years ago for $69.95
    	I use it for every thing. The only time I use a regular drill
    is when I have to drill a lot of holes or into metal.
    
    		Worth checking out.
    
    				...Dave
    

    Re. The drill bits with the plastic sleeves.
    
    I got a set of those also but they are not the same as the device I
    described earlier. The plastic sleeves are intended to keep the drill
    bit from slipping off of the screw head. The device I got has an actual
    clutch that disengages the drill bit from the shaft mounted in the
    drill so that drill still spins but the phillips bit does not. 

    Charly

    Sounds like we have the same problem,sagging kitchen. I purcahsed
    a house in february of 1986, approx. 108yrs. old, which sounds
    like the same structure your talking about. I can honestly say,
    that I know what the problem is (rotten sill beam) but I've been
    so busy with the rest of the house that I haven't got to that yet,
    notice i said yet. The wife says that will be my fall project.
                                                                  

                                      

Does anyone know where I can find one 2 1/4 inch wide Maple tongue and
groove floor board?  I can even use scraps since I need to patch a hole that is
less that a foot long, but will require about 6 sections. 

All of the lumber yards I talked either don't carry it or have to order it an
entire bundle at a time.

Thanks in advance for you help.

Joe Wild
    

    Hi Joe I too need about 3 six foot lengths to patch an
    area of flooring. My house is 130 years old and when the
    heating system was upgraded the old radiators were removed
    leaving holes where the plumbing came up. If you have any
    success locating some please let me know. I keep looking.
    Perhaps someone remodeling where the floor is beyond 
    renovation might be the answer.
    
    dave
    

    If your willing to pay...NewEngland hardwoods can mill your maple
    ie. their maple, for a price.  I just purchased six eight foot sections
    of 3" tonge and groove (maple) for $65.00.  The wood cost $25.00,
    and the set and milling cost another 45.00.  Since 3" is not standard,
    I had to go this route, 2 1/2" may be easier to find, you might
    try some wood working shops.  
    
    By the way, NewEngland hardwoods is located in Littleton, just down
    the street from LTN.
    
    Good Luck

    You can also get maple t&g from the Woodery, in Lunenburg MA.  It
    will cost less than at NE Hardwoods.
    

    Also, try Bingham Lumber in Brookline, NH.  If you call there they
    might not know whether they have it or not, you might have to just
    go check.
    

    re .1: Wantadvertiser ad for used maple flooring: Used. Exc cond.
    150 sq ft or more. 2" W. $1.25/bo per sq ft. (Somerville) 628-4448
    
    Maybe you could talk him into giving you a few pieces.
    
       mitch

    Lessee...I just put in an Oak floor and a 25 sq ft bundle of red
    oak ran about $40.00. Maple should run about the same, I would guess,
    and it sounds like you need standard strip flooring stuff.  If you
    value your time, you might just get the bundle and have some spare
    for some other DIY project.
    
    -- Mike Kilian
    

    
    hi guys,
    
    I'm in the process of getting estimates on sanding floors and
    refinishing them...any ideas how much I should have to pay...by
    the time you read this, the first guy should have already come
    to my house for an estimate...he says that it should be about 
    two dollars per square foot.  that's about $300 a room! yech...
    
    does this seem a fair price (I would prefer about $25 a room, I
    can dream can't I??????)  any way, would it be possible to just
    have him sand the floor and then I could do the refinishing?  How
    hard a job is it...I'm aware that there is a lot to it.  I just
    need to know the steps needed to do it right.  I've got 6 rooms
    that need to be sanded.  Would it be worth it for me to do it...
    or should I just let someone professional do it?  
    
    any help will definitely be appreciated!
    
    thank you,   me....

    A couple of other notes address this in great detail, but the $2/sqfoot
    is about the same as the estimate I got last year. I plan on
    contracting out the sanding, but doing the finishing myself (finishing
    was more than the $2/sqfoot).
    

    ...I dont know what kind of floors your doing....pine or hardwood...but
    let me tell you of my experiences....When I lived in a 3 family
    back about 14 years ago I had all wide pine floors that were a mess..
    
    Deciding to refinish them I went to a hardward store, rented a floor
    sander, and an edger and bought some sandpaper.....rough and fine....
    
    It was really a piece of cake to do....the time required will be
    predicated on how bad your floors are......anyway, when I was done
    to my satisfaction I filled any cracks in with plastic wood then
    finished the floor with something called Fabulon.....its kind of
    like a clear varnish but I think its the stuff they use on bowling
    alleys....real tough......two coats of that and the floors looked
    better than they did when they were new....
    
    So....if your talking about doing 8 rooms @300 a pop......Well,
    you can do them a lot cheaper yourself....but thats up to you....
    
    Good luck 
    
    Rick
                                                                      
    

    
    That price sounds about right.  Two years ago I got quotes of around
    $1.75/square foot for sanding, finishing was extra.  Because we
    had some fairly large rooms to do (smallest was 14x20) it was going
    to cost big bucks.  My husband and I rented a sander/edger and did
    it ourselves.  It's backbreaking work, but we're perfectionists
    and made sure it was just right and we're very satisfied with the
    results.
    
      Conni

    I got a few quotes but had a hard time finding someone willing to
    sand it without applying the finish too.
    I also ended up renting the equipment and doing it myself and was
    very glad I did.
    

  My wife and I rented a drum sander and edger and refinished the floors
  in our old house.  I didn't think the work was backbreaking, though it
  certainly is messy, tiring, and time-consuming.  That house was about
  600 square feet (yup, that small) and one weekend we sanded the floors 
  three times (coarse, medium, and fine) and got two coats of poly down.

  It's a good DIY job because it's pretty hard to screw up and the results
  usually look wonderful.  Your first attempts should occur in some
  relatively out-of-the-way room.  Make sure the drum sander is moving
  across the floor before you tilt it down and start sanding.  Be real
  careful with the edge sander, too -- both these machines can take off
  1/2 inch of wood before you can say "Oops." 

  I think you can save yourself quite a bit of money but we did this job
  ten years ago -- you might want to price out the DIY job at today's
  prices for rental and sandpaper.  You can go through a lot of sandpaper
  (especially if your floor has some nail heads poking up) and that gets
  quite expensive. 

  Good luck!
  
  JP

    I just had my  dinning  room  done (14' x 11' 1/2 plus a 6'x3' area) the
    quote price was $1.35/sq.   ft.   and the total bill was around $245.  I
    live in Goffstown NH and if  you want the name I'm sure I can dig it up.
    The guy put on three coats of  finish,  one  coat of this prep stuff and
    two coats of Fabulon, the floor looks great.  The only  problem  was  it
    takes a good month for the stuff to cure well and we  weren't as careful
    as we should of been, I now have a nice scratch, that I'll have him take
    care of when I have my bedrooms done during the winter.
    
    Claude

    
    The guy came today and gave me a quote of $1.25 a square foot (hardwood
    floors).  the total area I want done downstairs is 400 square feet
    and it will cost me $460...I'm pleased with that and hopefully will
    be getting it done soon...thanks for your help...

    Does the $1.25/sq. ft. cover sanding only, or refinishing as well?
    If it includes refinishing, what type of poly will they use, and
    how many coats?
    
    Joe (who has two floors that need help)
    

    
    If this has been talked about, point me to the area and I'll delete
    this note:
    
    Previous owners of my house left their dog on the screend in porch.
    We needed a four season room more and I've enclosed the porch rather
    soundly.  The problem that remains is that their is a dog oder.
     I guess the dog was allowed to do his dumping in the porch.  While
    it was open, the smell didn't come in.  The floor has vinal squares
    over 1/2 in plywood.  I'll be uprooting the vinal squares 
    [question one: does anyone have ideas how to do this painlessly?]
    probably the oder is from the plywood?  [question two, will plywood
    have to be replaced, or is there a way to get the oder out?]
    
    Thanks for any ideas or suggestions,
    ed
    

    
    it includes everything....I'm not sure of the poly that will be
    used...I'm in Maine, so I don't know if he could help you out..if
    you're from this area, I'll give you his name...good luck

One time I hired someone to do my floors and the second time I needed it done
I did it myself.  Let me quickly say this is NOT as easy as it sounds.  The job
went fairly smoothly 8-) and it only took a couple of days between sanding,
staining and polyurethaning.  When it was done it looked great.  BUT - over time
I began to notice all the little imperfections in the job.  I went back to look
at the room the pro did and there were none.  That always bothered me!  I've
also been to friends houses who've done it themselves and have always seen those
same flaws in the job.  Admittedly it's not a big deal, but be forewarned that
if it's perfection you seek, you probably won't get it if you DIY.

-mark

	I agree with Mark in .-1.  In the other floor-sanding notes,
	people say it's fairly easy, but that just proves there are
	two kinds of people in the world: them and us, and us always
	wind up putting little gouges and valleys in the wood.

	I think my problem is impatience.  When you rent a sander,
	you usually underestimate how long it takes to sand 12
	acres of floor, and how tedious it is.  It's easy to
	start hurrying, and it is not a good idea to hurry a
	9-ton 80-hp roaring monster around on your fine oak or
	ancient pine.

	Don't let fools like me discourage you, though.  Try it.
	But budget plenty of time, and learn to raise the roller
	gradually when you approach a wall.  Try to start where
	mistakes will be inconspicuous, like in your neighbor's
	house.

	Regards, Robert.

RE:1573.0 
    
	Hi Ed-

	In regard to removing the squares, we had vinyl tiles over asphalt
	tiles over oak flooring in our kitchen.  We tried a heat gun for 	
	removing the tiles and though it softened them right up the glue
	(from the vinyl self-stick tiles) was a gooey remnant left behind.
	If you try this method be sure to wear gloves for two reasons:
	keeping the glop off your hands and not getting burned from the
	gun.  And keep a fire extinguisher on hand just in case.
	
    	Since we had also the asphalt tiles to remove and the heat gun
	worked much slower on these, we ended up using another method.
	Purchase a heavy duty 3 inch chisel edge scraper it needs to have
	the metal all the way back through the handle, the only mfgr we
	found that had this was Hyde.  Hold scraper against edge of tile
	and slide under by pounding with a hammer.  This method worked very
	well and it was amazing how much flooring we could remove in a 
	relatively short time using this method.  

	If you have a real large area you'll need more scrapers, pounding
	them with a hammer tends to be somewhat abusive :-)  We bought
	seven of which 2 are still usable and the other five have been
	trashed for a room approx. 11 x 13 ft.  Using this method you
	can probably salvage the old plywood with just some sanding.

	As far as odor is concerned, urine can be a problem if it really
	soaked into the wood.  You should be able to tell once you get 
	the tile up whether the wood is really damaged or not, stains
	and punky areas in the plywood.  Bleach may be sufficient to
	eliminate the odor.

						Good Luck Randy    

    
    Ed, as far as the odors go, the bleach might work. A good floor
    covering co. could also advise you on this matter, but you might
    not like thir recomemdations ,i.e. new sub floor.
    
    Another method: Tear off the porch and park your motorhome real
    close.
    
    Jim

    When removing tiles or linolium, what would happen if you took dry
    ice, set it on a spot, moved it away, and hit the cold spot with
    a hammer?  Just a thought.
    
    					August G. Reinig

When I was in college, I had a job 'renovating' a dorm, mostly painting, ripping
up carpet, removing tile, and cleaning.

The method we used to remove the tile was to get an ice 'spud' (you know, the
chisel on the metal pole type that you use to open a hole in the ice to go ice
fishing), and use that to scrape the tile up.  you ram the point of the spud at
the edge of the tile along the floor, and the part of the tile will fracture and
break loose.  Sometimes you use the beveled side of the spud, sometimes you use
the flat side, depending on how stubborn the tile is being... 

This method didn't require any hammering, or destruction of tools, but it is
still a lot of work...  But what the heck, we were grunt labor...

Jim. 

re: .3, .4

A long time ago, I helped my father remove the asphalt tiles using the 
dry ice method. We got an 8"X8" cake and just put it on the floor for 
about 15-30 seconds, moved it and the tile 'popped' off the floor with a 
little persuading using a wide scraper.

Using a spud would mean you could be standing upright throughout the 
whole process. I wish my Dad and I thought of it! Our knees sure were 
sore afterwards...

RE:1573.5 

>Using a spud would mean you could be standing upright throughout the 
>whole process. I wish my Dad and I thought of it! Our knees sure were 
>sore afterwards...

	I had forgotten this part, if you do go with a method that forces 
	you to kneel I used knee pads and would recommend you do to.  They
	look kind of funky but they really do work, also good for roofing by 
	the way.  I got two good pair at Spags for around $7.- /pr.

	FWIW I think the Ice spud is a great idea for tile on a hard surface 
	like concrete, I don't know about plywood, you might end up having
	to replace the plywood.  Re: .2 what was that tile mounted on?

		Good Luck Randy

    Before I could put down a tile floor in my kitchen I had to remove
    the linolium , so I rented a power scraper from a rental store and
    returned it 2 hrs. later with the job finished. 20 sq.yds. came
    up real fast with this machine. Cost $12 and no back pain.
    
    btw it was real noisy.
    
    Jim

    more to add to re.7
    This scraper is on wheels with a handle so you don't have to bend
    or kneel at all. The blade is about 6-7 inches wide and is set at
    an angle so that it just peals off the floor covering and glue.
    The one I rented had a 1 hp. motor that would have taken everything
    off till I reached the cellar if I had let it.

    
    Thanks for the help so far.  I found the perfect weapon seems to
    be my 10 year old son with hammer and scrapper.
    The tiles are on plywood.  still some sticky glue makes walking
    interesting.
    
    two questions reamain.  Is the bleach a good idea, and/or other
    ideas for the oder. [can try the bleach next week].
    
    2) where do you buy dry ice in the grater Nashua,nh area?
    
    thanks,
    ed

        RE: Dry ice -- try looking in the Yellow Pages under "Dry Ice",
        or even just under "Ice".  Also, try fish stores, bulk ice
        cream stores, and the like.
        
        RE: Oder -- do you mean "odor"?
        
        Tom

This is only one of several notes on the topic of hardwood floors,
but I might as well post my question here rather in a new topic.
We just bought a new house which has a dining room with a hardwood floor.
My husband and I are currently in disagreement over how to treat it.
Specifically, hubby things we should get an area rug for the middle
so that the dining room chairs won't scratch or otherwise hurt the floor
when people push the chairs in and out. I'd like to think that hardwood floors 
are supposed to be able to handle that just fine. I'd hate to cover up
hardwood even partially!
Any opinions from people with experience with hardwood floors? (We have
none).

thanks,
Carol Gallagher

P.S.- get this: my in-laws have beautiful wood parquet floors in the living
and dining rooms and they covered them with Oriental rugs! Needless to say,
it's no fun eating in that dining room, rather than worrying about the hardwood
you have to worry about the damn rug which cost many more $$$!

    re .10
    
    Dry ice can be obtained in beautiful downtown Nashua on Canal street
    just west of Sanders Assoc. at a welding supply store.  I'm not
    sure of the name maybe Nashua welding supply.

    New Hamsphire Welding Supply at 22 Bridge St  882-1281
    carries dry ice.  Bring a cooler and remember to wear gloves
    when handling it.

    re .13
    
    I would tend to agree with your husband.  We also have hardwood
    floors in the dining room and I wouldn't let anyone eat at the dining
    room table until we got a rug to put under the table and chairs.
    
    Of course it also depends on how your floor is finished and what
    type of dining room chairs you have.

    Carol

    RE: .13
    
    Hardwood floors will get scratched and scuffed up from moving chairs
    around.  Alot of chairs have small metals caps on the legs which
    make it even worse.  You could get round rubbers caps to put on the
    bottom of the legs (available from Spag's, where else!).  Some chairs
    have square legs and I haven't seen square rubber caps.
    
    I like the rug idea too, although it's expensive and if you drop
    food on it, well... but what the heck; it looks marvelous!
    
    -al

re:1573.10 
    
>    two questions reamain.  Is the bleach a good idea, and/or other
>    ideas for the oder. [can try the bleach next week].
    
	Before trying the bleach, sand the glue and residues off, a large 
	percent of the odor may be coming from the glue, you'll need to 
	do this anyway if you're going to salvage the plywood.

	You need a very coarse grade of paper, something like 8 or 10 if 
	I remember correctly.

	Good Luck Randy

    We have hardwood floors.  If we ever buy a dining room set, it
    will have an area rug, oriental/Chinese style, under it for
    decorative purposes and to keep down the noise.  I've used
    teflon tips for chair legs in other rooms with considerable
    success at preventing scratches.  They're available from
    Stanley in most hardware stores.
    
    pbm
    

re: .13

They are great for wood chairs and tables.  We have them in our
dining room and they make the table/chairs easy to move.

They're nylon and felt on the bottom.  About $20 for enough for four chairs
and a heavy table.  I don't know how long they'll last but I think they're
worth it.  I agree; a wood floor is much easier to clean than a rug!!

            --tom

    a good orintial rug will take the abuse.  that is why they are so
    popular.

    A point that may be worth considering is that to vacuum-clean a
    room with an area rug and wood floor showing outside its perimeter,
    you will usually have to change attachments when you switch from
    the one to the other.  Some people don't mind this, others object
    enough that they refuse to have such a setup in their house.
    
    Dick
    

Thanks for the responses! Hubby will be glad to hear that he's right
this time. Of course, the bad news is, now we have to spend more money!
Oh well, I'll just add it to the list of things we need/want...

-cg

    Looked at other hardwood flooring notes, but didn't see this covered...
    
    I just bought a [big] roomful of Bruce Village Plank flooring and I'm
    about to install it (glue-down over concrete).  It seems like a
    simple enough job, but I'm not sure what to do at the edges.  Do
    you leave a gap to allow for expansion?  I don't think it would
    expand very much, since it's bonded by the adhesive, but the "floor
    expert" at the lumberyard said to leave 1/2" all around.  Of course,
    the gap would get covered by baseboard.
    
    The instructions make no mention of this.  Anyone had experience
    with this stuff?  Any other tips on installation?

    I'm not sure about the glue down but, I've installed a few rooms
    of the Bruce plank flooring and where I couldn't leave the 1/2"
    space (where the floor butts up to a tile floor) I've experienced
    some plank buckling. I'd recommend leaving the 1/2" space!
    

    I just put a deposit on a new house and the floors are unfinished
    (8 of them).  I'm considering for the kitchen/dining rooms hardwood
    floors.  I've notice most mention of Bruce.  What would one expect
    to spend per sq.yard.  Is there an execeptable alternative?  Any
    direction would be helpful.  We are receiving an allowance for floor-
    ing.
    
    DAN  232-2622    SIOUXI::STEWART
    

    I've been quoted anywhere between $40-$50/sq yd to have hardwood
    floors installed, sanded and finished.  Typical flooring allowances
    on new homes runs from $15-$20/sq yd, so it's gonna cost you.
    
    -al

    Bruce is very nice stuff, and good for DIY since it's prefinished.
    
    But it's extremely expensive.  $5-6 / square foot.
    

    We were thinking of using one of these new "floating" hardwood floors,
    as seen on "This Old House", but it's expensive - $5.50/sq ft.
    
    Then, while looking at the floors at Maki Home Center in Lunenburg,
    my wife saw a Bruce floor that was exactly what she wanted.
    Fortunately (for me), it is the one kind that they stock, and sells
    for a little over $3/sq ft, sold in 25 sq ft cartons only.  The
    adhesive costs another 50� or so per ft�.
    
    Back to my original question - any other installation tips for this
    stuff?
    
    -db

    RE: .4
    
    Not all Bruce is pre-finished.  They also sell the regular old stuff.
    
    RE: .5
    
    This may sound strange, but a sq ft of hardwood flooring is
    10" by 10".  You must take the actual dimensions of the room and
    add 44% plus some for waste.
    
    -al

    RE: .6 The guy that will be installing mine told me to buy 1/3 more
    that the square footage I wanted to cover. BTW, I looked into
    the do-it-yourself stuff. The estimate I was given at Color Tile
    in Auburn for the pre-finished Bruce was less than $20 lower than
    buying the unfinished stuff and have it professionally installed
    and finished. I lucked out. Webber put theirs on sale the week I 
    was shopping for it.
    
    I also noticed that what Color Tile had on display was some kind of 
    plywood with a veneer on top. Is that only for display or is that the 
    finished product? I didn't know any better then so I didn't ask the 
    guy at the store.

     RE: .6
    
>    This may sound strange, but a sq ft of hardwood flooring is
>    10" by 10".  You must take the actual dimensions of the room and
>    add 44% plus some for waste.
    

    Is this true for the pre-finished stuff as well?  There's no mention
    of it in any of the documentation I got.  Think I'll lay out the
    contents of a carton and measure it first, then mix in any extra
    stuff I need so the colors don't drastically change at some point
    in the floor.
    
    RE: .7, 33% excess sounds like way too much for a random-length
    pattern.  There should be very little waste in a rectangular room.
    

    It's a conspiracy by wood products distributors to make more money
    by selling you small square feet! :-)
    
    Yes even the prefinished planks are small square feet.  The reason
    why is that they start with a 3" wide strip of wood.  They then
    mill the tongue on one side and the groove on the other which
    effectively reduces the surface you walk on to 2 1/2 inches.  Kind
    of like 2x4s and 2x6s.
    
    There is stuff that looks like hardwood floors which is actually
    a 1/8" veneer on top of plywood.  Each plank is about 7 1/2 inches wide
    which speeds up installation since there's less nailing and cutting.
    The veneer is patterned so that it looks like 3 real strips were
    nailed down.
    
    -al

    Never heard of 2x14's, but you must remember that wood is somewhat
    elastic and will bounce alittle no matter what you do. You might
    want to install solid block bridging down the center of your floor
    joist. The only other thing that might work would be to install
    a stiffing beam with a couple of lolly columns but then you have
    the columns to mess up your future ping pong / pool room.
    

    If your jog goes beyond your foundation or a lower support wall
    you might try your laminated beam idea. Check with your building
    inspector! A plywood/2x10 beam laminated together can be pretty
    stiff.

    It's not unheard of to use steel I beams in residential construction
    for unusual spanning or stiffness requirements.  Steel is so much
    stronger than wood that you are typically dealing with relatively
    small beams.  We did a garage once where the owner wanted a 36'
    long postless room above - I think the I beam was 4x8 or something
    like that.  You could jump on top of the beam and it felt like you
    were jumping on solid ground.
    
    

>    Never heard of 2x14's, but you must remember that wood is somewhat
>    elastic and will bounce alittle no matter what you do. 

Yes but...  Of course the floor will bounce a little no matter what you do.  
That doesn't mean that you can't make it bounce LESS by increasing the size of 
the structural members.  2x14s are not usually stocked, but you can special 
order them.  Since the strength of the floor is proportional to the square of 
the depth of the flooring joists, 2x14s will decrease the deflection over that 
of 2x12s by a factor of:
				11.25�/13.25�=.72 or almost 30%

I agree that there are other ways to make a floor stiffer, but to say that the
floor won't be stiffer by using larger joists is just plain wrong. 

Paul

    I just had my maple floors sanded, sealed, and two coats of poly
    for 1.20/ft^2 by Nu-Floor in Brighton, MA.   My floors were pretty
    beat-up so it's not perfect but I think that they did a pretty good
    job.
    
    When I saw the bags of dust that they carried out I was pleased
    that I paid somebody to do this instead of doing it myself (not
    the right attitude for this notes file is it???)
    
    -Eileen
    

Hi Home_workers,

I need some advice/opinions on two subjects: 

1) Removing Inlaid Linoleum 

2) Preparing the surface for the laying of a Vermont Slate Floor.

First Question:
===============
Anybody know of a quick efficient way to remove (cemented) inlaid linoleum?

I have in the past removed cemented linoleum tiles with a torch and scraper
off a cement slab but was wondering if there were any other methods.

Can new Inlaid be cemented over old inlaid linoleum ?

After the old linoleum is up, can I use a sander on the hardened cement?  
Won't it plug up the sand paper ?

Second Question:
================
I have read all the responses in NOTE 412 regarding the preparation and 
reinforcing of floors before setting tile. However, I was wondering if the 
following would work. I have kitchen work area of ~100 sq.ft. bordered by
cabinets and appliances. See below.

    door
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|                           |                        | 
|                           |_____________           |
|                                        |           |
|                                        |           | 
|    proposed  slate  floor              |           |
|                                        |           |
|                                        |           |
|                                        |           |
|                 _______________________|           |
|                |                                   | 
|                |                                   | 
|                |        counter top                |
|                |                                   |
|                |                                   |
|................------------------------------------|
| slate stops here                                   | 
|                                                    |
~                            dinning area            ~   
                            inlaid linoleum 



Can I brace the floor from underneath with 2x4's every 16" for enough 
added strength and rigidity? This would give me a floor grid of 16" x 16" sq. 
That way I would not have to add more plywood to the surface. See below.

plywood floor 2 pieces  ~1 1/4" total thickness
________________________________________________________ 2x8 (10?)
-------------------------------------------------------- floor joists 16"oc
  ||         ||         ||         ||          ||
  ||         ||<--16"-->||         ||          || <-- 2x4 cross brace grid
  ||         ||         ||         ||          ||     tight up to the floor
________________________________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------
       ||         ||         ||         ||          ||
       ||         ||         ||         ||          || 
       ||         ||         ||         ||          || 
________________________________________________________
-------------------------------------------------------- 

If this procedure is valid, how do I get a smooth transition 
from slate to linoleum ?

Thanks for any advice,
Bob

     	I replaced my kitchen floor last year.  It was 4 layers of different
    types of linoleum and two layers of �" luan subflooring!  All of
    the installers I talked to wanted no part of ripping it out.  There
    are possible health risks in that some old flooring used abestos.
    There was no way that I was going to install a $1000 floor over
    all the old mess.  I got out my flat bar and large hammer and chipped
    it up myself.  I wet the area to keep the dust down and wore a mask.
    It was a rotten time consuming job but I'm glad I did it.  I had
    no problem with the glue because they put down the luan over the	
    over the hardwood flooring before the first linoleum.
    	I thought about a tile floor but the installers kept telling
    me I'd need a 'mud job' because my floor was so uneven.  I was not
    crazy about putting 3" of cement in the kitchen so I went with sheet
    vinyl.  If you put down a plywood subfloor yourself rent a nailing
    gun.  It will save lots of time.            
    
					=Ralph=

    Good luck, I just laid down a ceramic tile floor in my bathroom.
    The worst part of the whole job was pulling up the old linoleum.
    I ended up pulling as much up as I could, then sanding down the balance.
    I also cemented to pieces of backing I couldn't scrap. 


                                             
    

    Several years ago we had a new kitchen floor installed.  I was going
    to DIY it by opted for the pros.. The house we bought had
    indoor/outdoor carpet in the kitchen.  We found it had TWO carpets
    and one layer of linoleun.  The installers ripped up the carpets
    and used, what I can only describe, as a power chisel to remove
    the linoleum.  It was the size of a lawnmower with a good sized
    electric motor.  They did the small kitchen (10X15) in half a day.
    I would probably not be finished yet.
    
    You might try the rental places to see if this is a common tool.
    
    Good luck,
    Frank
              
    

    As mentioned in .3, there is an electric tool which is very useful
    for removing old linoleum.  It usually comes with a assortment of
    different width blades.  I can't remember what it was called, but
    I know that the Taylor rental place in Nashua NH has at least one.
    
    - Mark
    
    P.S.  These beasts are very noisy and vibrate enough to cause various
    things to fall off shelves.  (I destroyed a glass pot this way...sigh.)

    Well I will apologize again..strange things happening with NET and
    fingers.  I goofed up Note 1705.
    
    Heres my request again.
    
    I have a new home (9 months).  This is a split-level home.  I had
    the contractor construct a 3/4 bath in the basement.  There is no
    moisture in the basement at all.  The problem lies with the in-layed
    floor.  Several months ago we noticed some dark stains coming through
    the floor.  We notified the contractor who gave us some ideas on
    how to remove these stains.  They did not work! He had a flooring
    sepcialist come in a check it out.  The result, it is calcium coming
    from the concrete floor and re-acting with the glue and backing
    of the flooring.
    
    The contractor states that there is a speical flooring material
    that he will put in that resist calcium.  I have to pay the diffrence
    in the prices of the flooring material..That sounds okay I guess.
    
    My questions are-
    
    1. Has anyone ever heard of this type of thing happening?
    
    2. Has anyone ever hear of this type flooring?
    
    3. What are the general price differences in the two floors?
    
    4. What should I do with the contractor about this new floor, the
       One Year Warranty on the house will run out in February?
    
       What if the same thing happens again in 7 months?
    
    Any information will be greatly appreciated.
    
    P.S. Sorry for the goof up before
    
    Regards,
    
    Bob Montville
    262-8291
    Junior::Montville
    
    

�    < Note 1707.0 by JUNIOR::MONTVILLE >
�                         -< Help with flooring issue >-

�        The contractor states that there is a speical flooring material
�    that he will put in that resist calcium.  I have to pay the diffrence
�    in the prices of the flooring material..That sounds okay I guess.


    	Doesn't sound ok to me!!  I just moved into a new house last
    	 July.  My warranty states that the *entire* house and lot are
    	 under a one year warranty, no questions asked.
    
    	If the flooring had been done properly, those spots would not
    	 be showing up now.  I would tell them to fix it, but also state
    	 that I don't expect to pay for it.  Also, make sure you have
    	 all this *in writing*!  Send a letter with your complaint to
    	 the builder (Co.) of the house.  This way you cover yourself
    	 if the same thing happens later.
    
    	I had a similar problem in that a portion of our back yard kept
    	 sinking lower all the time.  Finally there was a section like
    	 a ditch 4 feet across, 3 feet depth, the entire width of the
    	 back yard!  With a couple letters to the builder and some nasty
    	 phone calls, they came and filled up the yard, at *no charge*
    	 to me.  It took 4 large dump trucks of dirt to fill it in,
    	 but I didn't have to pay for it.
    
    
    				-Rich
    

>    	Doesn't sound ok to me!!  I just moved into a new house last
>    	 July.  My warranty states that the *entire* house and lot are
>    	 under a one year warranty, no questions asked.
>    
>    	If the flooring had been done properly, those spots would not
>    	 be showing up now.  I would tell them to fix it, but also state
>    	 that I don't expect to pay for it.  

My understanding of note .0 is that all the contractor is asking him to pay is 
the difference in price between the flooring that was put down, and the special 
flooring that he will put down in it's place - no charge for labor involved in 
removing the old or installing the new.

Seems reasonable to me.  The contractor is already taking a big hit on the job -
the labor involved in replacing it, and the cost of the original flooring, 
which cannot be reused.  Sounds like the contractor is being quite responsible
about it.

Paul

    
    	Re .2:
    
    	I see your point, but I'd still be pretty t'd off about the
    	 whole thing.  Sure he's installing a new floor, using a special
    	 flooring and all that.  But if he'd done it in the first place,
    	 he wouldn't have to be re-doing it now.  He's a contractor.
    	 He's getting paid to do a job, and do it right.
    
    				-Rich
    

Let's say you hired me to do some work.  I did what I thought was the 
right thing and billed you $10.  Later you find that what I did was not 
the right thing at all, and you ask me to fix it.  To do the *right* 
thing costs $15.  I eat the $10, but ask you to pay the $5 that you 
would have spent anyway if I had done what you wanted in the first 
place.  Is that fair?

Well, Judge Wapner would tell you it is.  You can't get something for 
nothing; i.e. you have to pay $15 for a $15 job.  I have to eat the $10 
for the job I did wrong, but you can't make me eat the extra $5.  

I'd say the contractor has made a reasonable offer and has shown himself
to be a very responsible buisnessman.  He could have told you to take
him to court, and then in five years when your court date comes up, he
could have put this company into bankruptcy and started another.  You'd
be out the bucks you paid him, and you'd have to hire someone to do the
floor at full price.  
					>>>==>PStJTT

>    3. What are the general price differences in the two floors?

The contractor will be able to tell you that.  Ask him to provide a 
written estimate.
    
>    4. What should I do with the contractor about this new floor, the
>       One Year Warranty on the house will run out in February?

Ask him for a one year warranty on the new floor.  He'll probably go for 
it, but if not, at least he'll negotiate for a time he feels is 
reasonable.  Given his behaviour up to now, he doesn't sound like a 
sleeze.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Hi Folks!
    
    	A question for all you DIY'ers. I am comtemplating on installing
    	shiplap pine flooring on pressure treated lumber on a concrete
    	floor. I am thinking of insulating also (the pink stuff) between
    	the studs. The question is... is nailing to the studs (16" on
    	center) ok? Will 8" shiplap be strong enough for the 16" spread?
    	Should I space the studs closer together or go with a plywood
    	surface before installing the shiplap. The latter seems like
    	such a waste.
    
    Thanks..john//

>	Will 8" shiplap be strong enough for the 16" spread?

    Yes, shiplap is strong enough for that.  It does depend a little
    on the quality of the shiplap.  If you get a low grade it might
    have cracks started which can break if they end up between studs.
    
    It's not enough support according to Massachusetts code, but
    considering the worst case is you fall through 6 inches, I wouldn't 
    bother with a subfloor.

>	Will 8" shiplap be strong enough for the 16" spread?

It won't break, but it might spring a bit.  If you reduce the spacing to 12" it 
probably won't spring at all.

Paul

    
    I've never used shiplap, but if it is 1/2 inch thick or less and
    only 8"wide, I would put a subfloor (underlayment) down first. A
    floor has to be solid everywhere because you'll find every weak
    spot when walking on it. The usual procedure is to put a subfloor
    down first when installing finish flooring and I've even seen two
    layers of subflooring (plywood on joists;subfloor;finish floor).
    You can stay with 16" on center with the studs and I would put
    a vapor barrier on the cement.
    
    
    hope this helps.............
    
    Bob

    
    	Could someone post the Mass. building code for the proper
    	installation of 1"x8" shiplap. I'm really interested in stud
    	spacing.
    
    Thanks..john//

>        	Could someone post the Mass. building code for the proper
>    	installation of 1"x8" shiplap. I'm really interested in stud
>    	spacing.

    You should call your building inspector about this.  Different
    inspectors are going to inforce it differently.  It depends on whether
    it's the first or second floor, and possibly the grade of shiplap.
    16" o.c. is not close enough.

    I have several (>10) very old wood floors (~90 years old), which need
    patching.  Unfortunately, EACH room has a floor which needs repairing, 
    because some idiot (excuse me, I mean "former owner") decided to
    cut holes in the floor (top and subfloor) and put metal grates down.
    
    I can only guess that this was done because he/she had some sort
    of a stove/furnace in the basement, which was used to heat the house.
    The house never had forced hot air; it currently has steam heat.
    Anyway, I want to fix up the floors, and I want to do it right.
    I plan to replace long lengths of boards, in a staggered fashion,
    not just rectangular patches over the holes.
    
    My questions are:
    
    1. Has anyone ever done this, and if so, do you have any tips?
        
    2. How do I find out what kind of wood I have (so I know what to
       patch it with)?  The wood is definitely NOT oak.  The floors that
       have been refinished recently have a light honey color.  For all I
       know, they could be maple, birch, pine,... The spaces between the
       boards are up to 1/4 inch if that gives you any clue as to what
       the type of wood is. 
                    
       As I see it, either I find the right wood to replace the boards
       with, or I sacrifice the floor in one room, and use the boards
       from it to fix the other floors.
    
    3. By the way, replacing all the floors is NOT an option.  I am
       by no means wealthy, that's why I bought a "fixer-upper".
    
    
    Thanks in Advance, 
    TM
    
    

    re: .19
    
    If the closets have the same flooring, you could remove the flooring
    from the closet to cover up the hole from the metal grates.  This
    would ensure a better match on the wood.
    
    
    Mark
    

Mark's idea of getting wood from closets is probably your best bet for getting 
a good match.  The wood is probably maple, but may be birch or some other wood-
if you buy new flooring you can almost be assured that there will be a subtle 
difference.  And certainly, if you use new flooring, you will wind up having to 
refinish EVERY floor if you really want it to blend in.  If you can get some 
from the closets you may not even have to refinish it - it may just match as it 
is, and then you can buy some new maple flooring, put it in the closet and 
finish it, and no one will ever really notice the slightly different color and 
finish.

The other question is, what kind of flooring is it?  Is it wide board, face
nailed?  Or is it T&G strip flooring?  If it's tongue and groove, you'll wind
up having to destroy one piece to start removing a section.  Probably the
easiest way to do that would be to rip down the piece twice with a circular
saw, so you could lift out the center section and then pull out the tongue side
and and the groove side separately.  You want to start on the tongue side of
the area you want to remove, because subsequent pieces will be easier to remove
if you can get at the tongue side, where the nails are.  When you put the
replacement flooring back in, you'll have to rip the tongue, and probably the
bottom half of the groove, off of the last piece to install and then face nail
it. 


Paul

I don't have much new information for you, Th�r�se, but here's a vote of
confidence in how you plan to proceed. 


>    I plan to replace long lengths of boards, in a staggered fashion,
>    not just rectangular patches over the holes.

That's the right, albeit more difficult, way to do it.

First you'll need to repair the subfloor.  Using a circular saw, enlarge the
grate hole to the nearest joist on each side.  You have a choice: either cut
back to the center of the joist and nail the new subfloor into that, or
install a 2x4 nailing strip on the side of the joist and nail into that.  The
former requires more accurate cutting, especially to avoid cutting through
nails; the latter requires accurate positioning of the nailing strip, and
isn't possible if wires, pipes, or other joists are in the way. 

Now nail (or, better, screw) the subfloor into place.  Use the same thickness
wood as the rest of the subfloor, or shim to get smooth transitions between
the old and new subfloor.  Don't bother using a level - the existing floor
almost certainly isn't level - but do check your transitions with a
straightedge.

When Bozo installed the grates, he/she/it probably cut out partial finish
floor boards as well as full ones, since the grate probably wasn't an integer
number of boards wide.  If you remove these partial boards, you'll have an 
easier time matching courses later.  There's no need to replace the subfloor 
under these boards unless it's damaged.

Finding new wood that matches the appearance of the existing finish floor will
be tough.  You may have to experiment with various woods, stains, and
finishes.  The fact that you'll be "toothing in" the new boards will help 
some.

Matching the existing floor's thickness may be tough too.  You can adjust the 
subfloor height and/or shim if necessary, but everything is easier if the
thicknesses match.  Don't forget that you'll remove a little thickness when 
you sand.

The part I don't know much about is the actual installation of the boards.  If
the existing floor is tongue-and-groove, I imagine you're in for a lot of
difficult, fussy, unforgiving work, removing and replacing individual boards
without damaging adjacent ones.  If they're just boards, things should go much
more smoothly. 

You can probably learn a lot about the existing boards by examining their
cut-off ends at the grate openings... 

    	You could always take the east route and buy some nice
    brass floor grates.

Re: All

Wow!  What fast turnaround time.  Thanks for those quick responses,
and keep'em coming if you have more ideas.  Also, I discovered that
there are really less than 10 rooms to do, because 2 of the rooms
upstairs have been redone with modern tongue and groove flooring
(no grate holes in the floor) and one of the rooms upstairs has 
shiplap in it, so that will probably be easier to find if I decide
to repair it.

Re: .19

Mark, the closet idea sounds pretty good, but this may not be the sole
solution, since I don't have much in the way of closets. 

Re: .21

Maple seems like a pretty good guess.  The boards are just
boards, not tongue and groove (did they use tongue and groove
that long ago?).  They are about 4 inches wide, and unfortunately
have annoying spaces between the boards (all the easier to
retrofit, I suppose). Although the finish on the boards is shot
(except for 2 floors that have been refinished recently), they
don't seem terribly worn (no indentations, etc.) so I suspect
they could be a hardwood.

Re: .22 and .23

I definitely intend to refinish the floors at some point, so I'm not
too concerned about them not matching the present finish.  However,
one thing that does concern me about using new boards, is whether or
not they would shrink later. Maybe I should put it in tight, and let
it shrink to form more spaces? 

Re: .23

Dave, I was wondering whether it was really necessary to replace the
sub-floor?  The rectangles that Bozo (I like that name, Dave) put in
are about 6 inches wide and 12 to 24 inches long (*Naturally*, they
were usually cut across the boards, so as to ruin as many as
possible!), and there is sub-floor around the holes to nail the
replacement boards to.  Is there any other purpose to a sub-floor
besides structural support?  If it is just structural support,
I thought that the rest of the sub-floor would support well enough.

Re: .24

Thanks, for the suggestion, but I would never be happy with that
as a permanent solution.  Besides, doing something the easy way
goes against my nature :-).
  
				--Th�r�se

> Dave, I was wondering whether it was really necessary to replace the
> sub-floor?  

If your finish flooring is only 3/4" think (nominal 1"), I'm concerned about
an unsupported 6" span.  Remember, high heels and table legs put heavy loads
on very small areas of flooring.  If the boards are significantly thicker
than that, you may be OK, but you'd better consult an engineer with a
specialty different from mine (software!). 

Another consideration is seams.  Can you guarantee that your new boards will 
all span the hole, or will there be boards butted together over thin air? 
Especially without T&G, you need something to which to nail the ends of the
boards... 

A secondary purpose of a sub-floor is to stop things from travelling through
the cracks between your finish floorboards:  drafts, dust and dirt, insects,
small personal belongings, light, you get the idea.  I'm intimately familiar
with this aspect of flooring right now:  as we (slowly) lay the finish
flooring in our kitchen, the cold draft flowing up from the basement through
the old widely-spaced subfloor boards is becoming stronger, as the same
volume of air is forced through ever-shrinking holes.  By the time I'm down
to the last board, the draft will probably prevent me from putting it in
place.  :-) 

Shiplap is a style of board.  It's designed so it overlays the board you 
put down before it, and the next one overlays that one and so on, the 
way boards were laid for the sides of wooden ships.  Viewed from the 
end, each board looks sorta' like:

            ----------------------------------------
          __|                                   ___|
         |______________________________________|


						>>>==>PStJTT

    Re: .25
    
    <<If the boards are significantly thicker than that, you may be OK, but
    <<you'd better consult an engineer with a specialty different from mine
    <<(software!).
    
    OK, I'll talk to a "Hardware Type".
    
    <<... will there be boards butted together over thin air?
    
    I may be dumb, but I ain't *stupid* :-)
    
    << A secondary purpose of a sub-floor is to stop things from travelling
    << through the cracks between your finish floorboards:  drafts, dust 
    << and dirt, insects, small personal belongings, light, you get the
    << idea.
    
    Yes, at the very least I think I'll patch it somehow.  But your mention
    of dust and dirt, gave me a thought about Bozo ...  Maybe he cut
    holes in the floor so he could sweep the floors more easily.  That
    way he could just sweep the dirt into the basement!  ;-}
    
    -tm

To code or not, I wouldn't recommend it.  I have it and it springs.
If I did it again, I'd use plywood beneath it or use t&g.

    
    
    For those of you who are curious, I've decided that my flooring
    is made of Maple.  I had a friend look at it who is pretty familiar
    with wood and he said:
    
    It can't be pine, because the wood is much too hard.  Also,
    it has the grain and color of maple.
    
    -tm
    

    
    	I just finished sheetrocking and started putting trim up this
    weekend but ran into a problem. Does anyone have any tips on how
    to put down the kick board when the floor is not level ? There is
    about a 3" difference in height within 8'. I am using all oak trim
    and it does not bend very good. The only thing I can think of is
    to span the 8' with maybe 4 2' sections.
    
    	-Steve-
    
    
    P.S.
    
    	This is the first time I have used oak trim and I must say it
    looks WICKED !!!!!
    

Place the board so that it rests on the highest part of the floor, and
support it so that it is level. Alternately (if it will make the board
look funny), you can slope the board.  Then place another strip of wood
that you *can* bend on the floor against the board. You can then trace
the contour of the floor on the oak trim using the bending board
as a guide. Place on jig saw, or use
sabre saw to cut contour... and wala, a perfect fit.

    3" in 8'?????!?!?!?!?!???!?!?!
    
    Do you have a rope tow in this room?  Seriously, I've seen alot
    of sagged floors in my day, but, none this bad that didn't have
    some serious structural flaws as the underlying cause.
    
    Could you provide some additional info?
    
    Alan

    re: .2
    You never saw floor 3-5 in the mill before they leveled it, did
    you?  Some parts of that were...simply incredible.
    
    Anyway, regarding the problem, my general approach to things like
    this is to go strictly by looks; if what you do looks right then
    it is, no matter how far off it may be by level or measurement.
    I'm afraid I don't have any bright ideas about what you might do,
    but I do encourage you not to feel confined by the concepts of
    "square" and "level"; it sounds as though nothing else in the room
    is, so why should your moulding be different?

    
    
    	I am not concerned about making the kickboard level but to have
    it follow the contour of the floor. If I just nail it as is I would
    have a very noticable 3" gap on one end.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    No, I never saw 3-5 before they levelled it. But, I do know that
    alot of the "levelling" done at the Mill was due to structural decay
    that had to be shored up. I assume that this work was similar to
    work I did on some of the old Boston warehouses that were converted
    to office condos. 
    
    There is, ususally, a difference between 100+ year old commercial
    buildings and any age residential building. And, 3" in 8' is a hell
    of a drop for a residence of any age where there is no structural
    problem. It is possible that there is nothing wrong with the underlying
    structure, but, I wouldn't bet on it.  That's why I asked for more
    info about 1) age of house
    		2) direction of slope from or towards foundation wall
    			of load bearing wall
    		3) first or second floor (or basement)
    		4) type of foundation
    		5) how's the ceiling? doors? windows?
    
    Alan

    here's the right way.   put the oak trim up agianst the wall.
    drill a small hole at each end, later you can use the holes
    to put finish nails in. with a level, level the board, drive
    the 2 nails in, just to hold the moulding in place, (don't sink
    them) now that the board is level, get a compass, a tool
    with a pencil and a steel point. at the end, where the gap
    is the largest, put the pencil end on the floor, and the 
    steel point against the bottom of the moulding. go to the
    other end (resting on the floor) and scribe a line, go as
    far as you can, until the pencil isn't on any wood.
    using a sabre saw, cut along the line. the board will
    be level, and follow the contour of the floor.
    p.s. you can get a compass at a stationary store for 
    about $1, you don't need anything more expensive.
    
    it works, i do it all the time.
    
    jim

    re-.1 That the way I'd do it but 3" is alot to make up in 8 feet
    the trim might taper out to less than 1/8" at the high end and that
    wouldent look very good. I would probably split the difference and
    lay carpet to cover that gap at the bottom. First choice would be
    to level the floor first especially if you plan to do so at a later
    date since the trim would then be uneven to a level floor.
    
    -j
    

    Something still doesn't sound right with the room. I can understand a
    floor not being level or straight and would agree with the molding
    installing tricks described here, BUT 3" in 8' is a LOT, and the
    additional facts make it sound like its more like 3" in 4'. 
    
    If the floor was not level BUT STRAIGHT, then the molding could be
    installed flush against the floor and it would simply be pitched the
    same as the floor 3" in 8'. But the author says that the molding won't
    lay flat which sounds like its flat for part of the 8' and then the
    floor DIVES DOWN 3" for the remaining part? 
    
    If this is what we're talking about, about the only thing you could do
    would be split the molding where the floor changes pitch and mitre the
    ends where they meet. You may even have to scribe the seperate pieces
    to get them to lay flat. 

    Charly

    
    
    Things still don't sound right to me either. But, the correct way
    to install molding on an unlevel surface depends entirely on the
    answer to the question (as mentioned earlier) should it be level
    to look right?
    
    If so, then you should scribe the molding as mentioned previously,
    BUT, do not remove so much that you get rid of the "thick" spot
    on the back. NOTE that base board has a concave back with extra
    thick top and bottom. This allows there to be minor imperfections
    in the wall and still have the molding lay flat against the wall.
    Don't remove so much of the bottom that this is no longer true,
    or, you will not be able to keep the top of the moulding aginst
    the wall. So, what you need to do is to scribe another piece of
    stock, the same thickness as the bottom of the baseboard
    ( I am assuming that you are using a standard baseboard, either
    ranch base or colonial), to fill in the space where the baseboard
    takes leave of the floor.
    
    Alan

    
    I just had a Southern Yellow Pine floor installed this month.  The
    fellow who did the work is semi-retired and came highly recommended.
    We discussed different joints and woods.  I was originally going
    to do a wide pine (Native/Northern) flat edge; the most common type
    that he had worked with.  I asked about shiplap and he discouraged 
    me against it because it will "shelf".  I assume that is what the
    previous reply meant by 'spring'.  I was able to locate 1X8" yellow
    pine t&g.  He felt that this was a good choice.  I couldn't be 
    happier with the results!!
    
    Good Luck,
    Love,
    -Panhead Pam
                           
    
    

    
    I need some help suing up a floor.  First let me explain the house.
    I live in a split approximatly 15 years old.  The framing wasn't
    donw as well as it could of been, becuase if it was, I wouln't have
    the problem I am facing:
    
    Architecture is typical of a Split -- kitchen opens directly into
    the living room, with half a staircase going up and half going down
    from the front door, which is halfway between the upper level and
    the lower level (basement).  Then there is a hallway which provides
    access to bedrooms and bath.  About 3/4 (grrrr!) of the lower level
    is finished, and this finished area has no lally columns; the main
    beam is supported by a steel beam which is bolted to its' wooden
    counterpart which runs through the unfinished section.  In the
    unfinished section, there are three lally columns.  The floor joists
    are oversized, being 2 x10s 16 OC, (cross bridged about every 12
    feet) but many of them (in my opinion do not overlap the main beam 
    enough -- fact is some of them just meet it.  the subfloor is 3/4
    inch plywood with hardwood finised floors; however many areas of
    the subfloor are pulling up from the joists

    My problem is this:  In my living room particularly over the staircase
    the floor has more "elasticity than I'm comfortable with -- in fact
    he hardwood floor is startin to pull away from the risers at the
    top of the staircase at the top level (living room and hall).  When
    I walk or jump on the floor in the living room the whole area shakes.
    This problem is isolated to the living room -- here there are many
    openings in both bearing and "quasi bearing walls -- the opening
    to the kithen is on my bearing wall, but it appears to be headered
    and jacked correctly.  My living room's picture window comprises
    a pretty big chunk of opening on an outside wall (parallel to the
    bearing wall, and right below that (in the in finished basement before
    the foundation starts (right above the sill -- typical of a split)
    I have three banked double-hung windows about the same size as the
    picture window (about 6 x 3 1/2.

       
    I believe I can sure up the staircase by adding some bracing to
    the risers, and possibly some additonal studs to hold the stairs
    up -- (before my hardwood floor goes to hell), but as for the living
    room, I'm not quite sure what to do.  The options I've considered
    are these:
    
    	Add another course of solid bridging, and perhaps (in the finished
        area (below the shaky floor) add another lally column and "finish
        it in -- I'd basically ad the bridging, then at the end of it,
        add 2 or 3 2x6s, bolt them to the beam, then box it in.
    
    	Do the above, but additonally add and fasten another joist to
        every second or third joist already in place.
    
    I know that I'm not in danger of "losing the floor" but I do want
    to firm it up.  Whenver anyone walks through the room with a heavy
    foot, everything from the picture (AKA bay window) to the dishes
    in my curio cabinet shakes.  I'd like ome help here, because while
    I have some pretty good ideas about what's going on -- I've don't
    have much practical experience (or knowlege) about fixing these
    problems.

    Thus, any and all help will be appreciated!
    
    /Dave
    

    	Before you go to all the trouble of solid bridging, what is
    the span of the 2x10 floor joists?  If it's greater than 14 feet
    bridging won't help.  Sounds like you need a 'beefier' floor which
    would mean adding more floor joists or supporting that steel beam.
    Is the end of the steel beam that connects to the wood beam sup-
    ported by a lally column?  If it isn't, I bet your losing alot of
    strength right there.
    

I'm getting ready to have a plumber come in and destroy all my fine framing in
the new bathroom.  However, as usual, the plans keep changing and now it looks
like the waste pipe for the toilet may have to cross some joists!  The plumber
had told me this can't be done and that the location of the toilet MUST be in a
place such that none of the joists are cut.

I say phooey on him!  Virtually anything is possible, it's just a matter of
how much you want to spend to do it.  The bathroom is currently framed with
12 foot 2X10's on 12" centers so the floor is pretty rigid.  If I do cut holes 
they would be near one end which is at least better than cutting holes in the
middle.

There are a varitey of ways to strengthed joists such as sistering in addition
joists, plywood or even steel.  I'm just wondering if anyone has done this 
before and what techniques they used.  I would assume that I wouldn't be cutting
into more than 1/2 dozen of them and I want a floor that is stiff enough to take
tiles.

If it can't be done for reasonable $$$'s, I'll just modify the plans 
accordingly.

-mark

    I believe cutting holes would weaken the joist severly and is probably
    against code. Another point is its hard to bend that cast iron
    (or PVC) to snake it thru those holes meaning you would need a 6"
    hole to pass a 4" pipe.
    
    -j
    

    how about if you were to use joist hangers and make a box shape,
    as you would with a sky light, I would call the building inspector,
    he might be able to give you ideas and he would also be able to
    approve those ideas....
    
    
    
    
    Royce

    Mark,
    	Acording to MA building codes only the center 1/3 of a floor
    joist can be drilled out.  That will allow for a 2" line.  Floor
    joist can not be cut unless you have a certified structual engineer
    come up with the plans.  I had to raise my shower up 6" because
    the trap was located over the joist and no notching is allowed.
    The building inspector in my town is crazy about this.  He even
    wrote "NO CUTTNG OR NOTCHING OF JOISTS ALLOWED" on my building permit.
    
                                	=Ralph=

    A friend of mine had the same problem of having to go thru the joists
    with a pipe. He used two plates of steel, bolted thru the joist
    to make a sandwich. He bought the steel precut and drilled, all
    he did was cut the hole in the joist and install the plates. The
    Conn. inspector said no problem.
    
    Jim

    
    I've also tackled a job or 2 that required cutting of floor joists.
    I had a welder friend of mine make up 3' pieces that were bent to
    fit around the bottom of the joist and were held by bolts as suggested
    in the last note. THese worked fine, and in 1 case actually helped
    to make the old floor more rigid. 
    
    Call a few local machine or welding shops. They can break (bend)
    them and cut the appropriate size hole. This way the plumber can
    just notch out the bottom of the joist and insert the pipe. This
    is easier for the plumber and eliminates the need to cut holes in
    extra joists to get the pipe in. Usually they charge you for the
    material plus an hourly fee.
    
    I did have one question. Is this a first or second floor installation??
    If it's first floor, why not just strap the pipe to the joists??
    
    HAve fun
    
    JMB
    

In what has to be the only bit of clever design in my new tract home, the
problem of running waste lines to the upstairs bathrooms was solved by 
running them through a soffit in the kitchen.  This works because 1. the
bathrooms just happen to be directly over the kitchen and 2. we would have
wanted the soffit anyway.

/Al

always glad to hear so many opinions...

this IS a second floor job, but getting down is no problem since I have 2X6
construction.  even if 2X4's, one could still fit a 3-1/4" waste pipe through
the walls.

as for the 1/3 rule, I've heard that too.  since I have 2X10's (actually 9-1/4),
the pipe is just a tad too big and hence I wondered if it was still doable.

as for getting it through a skinny hole, one could always cut the pipe into
small sections and use connectors to put them back together again.  after all,
I'm olny proposing to go through a few of them.

i don't oparticularly like the idea of notching the of the joist since this
considerably weakens it since it is in compression.

-mark

One thing you might do is check some span tables and find out what size joist 
is actually necessary for the span.  If by chance the joists that are there are 
bigger than necessary you may be able to cut out more than a third of the 
center of the joist, so long as you leave the equivalent of 2/3 of the required 
size.  For example, if you have 2x10s, and 2x8's would carry the span, you 
could leave top and bottom sections equal to 1/3 of a 2x8 instead of 1/3 of a 
2x10.  It would enable you to make a 4�" hole instead of a 3" hole.

We were able to do this in our house, the joists were 2x12's, when 2x10's could 
carry the span, so we were able to cut the holes.

Also remember that you need to maintain a �"/foot slope to the waste pipe, so 
you need a cuttable center joist space large enough to cut a hole in the first 
one at the top of the cuttable area, and on the last one at the bottom of the 
cuttable area, and still have enough wood left on all joists.

Paul

    Whatever you do, get the building inspector's okay *before* you
    get out your handy-dandy hole saw....

    I wouldn't cut the joists and would go with .2s suggestion of framing
    a box or channel.  Basically, you'd double up the two outside joists
    (the ones you wouldn't cut) and head off maybe an 8" channel.
    
    True, this is much more work (you'll need to support the "hanging"
    joists whilst you work), but the channel is the correct solution
    if you were starting from scratch.
    
    Good luck.
    

    Just one more vote for .2 and .10, framing a box by doubling up
    the outside joists and using joist hangers and 2xX's in the other
    direction.  It doesn't take that much time and eases the running
    of pipes I think.  I did this, cutting out 2 or 3 joists, to run
    various drain and vent pipes (1 1/2" - 3") for a second floor 
    bath.  I would think inspectors would prefer this to notching and
    drilling (hacking) holes.
    
    Also, you said you could run 3" pipe in a 2x4 wall.  This is true
    as long as you don't need any fittings on it anywhere.  (I know
    you also said you have 2x6 construction so for you it is a moot
    point).
    
    Doug
    

I agree with .2, .10, and .11

In my new home, all my upstairs plumbing had to be run across the joists.
The solution to this was to build a trough/channel in the 2nd floor during
framing.  Since I'm not really a carpenter, I can best explain this with a
picture:

=================================================== -outside wall
||       |       |       |       |       |       || -small joists
||===============================================|| -sistered 2x10s (I think)
||                                               || -12-16" TROUGH THROUGH WHICH
||                                               ||  ALL PLUMBING WAS RUN
||===============================================|| -sistered 2x10s (I think)
||       |       |       |       |       |       ||
||       |       |       |       |       |       ||
||       |       |       |       |       |       || 
                     .                            \
                     . floor joists                sistered floor joists
                     .
||       |       |       |       |       |       ||
||       |       |       |       |       |       ||
=================================================== -inside bearing partition

Not only did my general contractor and plumber think this was a good idea,
the building inspector and the state (NH) plumbing inspector okayed
it. As a matter of fact, the state inspector wanted us to make the trough wider
than it was originally framed (this was done by reframing the small joists
along the outside wall).

Don't know if this will help you with your new bathroom, but this
certainly solved our problems in getting the plumbing to the upstairs
bathrooms when they are over an open family room (no interior walls in
which to run the plumbing).  The plumbing passes through small wall
that separates the kitchen from the family room.
    
One good suggestion that my plumber had (and we took) was to use 
cast iron draining piping in this trough.  It is much quieter than
the PVC stuff.  We didn't want to here all the water draining over
our heads while someone was taking a shower.  He was right.  You
can't hear anything (I did add a bit of insulation around the pipes
for further "soundproofing").
    
Bill

Bill

    Mr. Moderator(s) and whoever else catalogued notes - Thanks.  It
    sure makes finding thd right spot a whole lot easier.  Now for the
    question.
    
    I'm about to lay a new ceramic tile floor in an upstairs bathroom.  Due
    to a long time leak �hat was not fixed by th��xL� D��HD�$�

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ween the sections of ply
od but should I also leave�C    gaps between the plywood and the wall?  Should I lay my ceramic�E    tile right
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 �   �I    Basic questions but 
ve never laid tile before and want to m

    
    RE: .16
    
    I think you're supposed to leave 1/8" gap between the plywood. 
    I'd also do it along the walls.  You may have no choice since you'll
    need some play between sheets to get them in.  A few things about
    putting down the plywood.  Make sure it goes *perpendicular* to
    the joists.  Stagger seams so that you don't have any meeting or
    any that are too long.  Mark where the floor joists so you can hit
    them with the hundreds of sheetrock screws you'll be putting in.
    Put in enough sub-floor to replace what was there plus enough for
    the added rigidity needed for the tile.
    
    As for the ends, it can be done several ways.  You can do as you
    suggested and put a baseboard.  They sell marble for this too. 
    Or you can get special floor tile for the ends that curves up to
    meet the wall tile if there is any.  Or you can just grout the seam
    at the wall, which is what I did.  (I already had tile on the wall
    from the previous owner.)
    
    If you've never tiled before, plan everything out in advance to
    minimize tile cutting and get a symmetrical appearance.  This is
    the hard part.  Once you get started, its not so bad.
    
    Oh yeah, and use that latex additive for grout (instead of water).

    More than you wanted but...
    
    Phil

   	The span of the 2 x10 joists is exactly 14 feet.  The steel
    beam isn't really a full beam; well what I mean is this:  it is
    2 steel beams bolted to both sides of the main house beams - these
    are 3 2x10s.  
    
    As for support -- the last lally column is not connected to the
    steel area; it is connected to the area of the main beam where 3
    lengths of 2x10s end and the new ones begin.  The steel beam then
    ends about 4 inches from the foundation where the 3 ganged 2 x10
    main beams sit on the foundation.
    
    A rough diagram:
                              main house beam 3 2x10s ganged
                                |
                                |                                
                                |
                                V   Span approximatly 15 feet                  
                                                                         
                                                                    
                                             foundation     ----->        
  _____________________________________________________________________|
  |   -----------------------------------------------------------------|
  |                                
  |                                ^                                      
  |                                |
  |                                |
  |                                |
  |                                steel beam
  | <-----lally column                                  

    
    
    

    
    	Ok, first, 2x10's for a 14 foot span to the main beam is not
    oversize, but actually just about right.  The modulas of elasticity
    for a 14 foot 2x10 is just about at the limit depending on what
    type of wood was used.  I'll look up the figures to confirm this
    and try to post them here.  So the joists are the correct size for
    the span, assuming the total span of the house is 28 feet.
    	I think your solution is to get those lally columns in place.
    What you call a steel beam, actually is not one.  I'm not a metals
    expert, but I doubt if your getting much support out of pieces of
    steel bolted to each side of the main wood beam.  The lally columns
    should be about every 7 feet.  You say the uncolumned span is about
    15 feet, so you might possibly get away with putting the columns
    every 7.5 feet, but I wouldn't go any further than that with only
    a 3 piece main beam.  You can always enclose the columns in the
    finished part of the downstairs so that they look as UN-obtrusive
    as possible.  I think you alluded to this solution in your original
    note.  If the floor is still unacceptable to you after that, you
    can then try solid bridging or adding extra joists for more strength.

    The kitchen floor in the second floor apartment is linolium (sp?)
    over plywood ( I think ) subfloor. Whenever the tennant move their
    chairs, or dropped something on the floor, the sound travelled down
    to my unit. Is there a way to isolate the sound from comming down
    ? Putting a drop-ceiling in my unit is out of the question cause
    we don't have a high ceiling. Any suggestions ?
    

    
    	How about installing some carpeting on the second floor ?

    re: .1  Not practical to install carpet in the kitchen. The rest
            of the apartment has wall-to-wall carpet already.

    
    You can install acoustic ceiling tiles. They're not very expensive
    and easy to do. I've done several ceilings in my house (some
    rooms have very low ceilings) and you only lose about an inch of
    height.
    
                  

    How about this?  
    
    Get some blown-in insulation put into the joist space between floors.
    This happened by accident when I had part of my house insulated
    because I have balloon framed walls with no closure betwee the wall
    bays abnd the floor framing space.  Unfortunately, this won't eliminate
    the noise component which is directly transmitted through the fraimng
    members themselves.  I know that simply insulating between floors
    helps tremendously, but in condo's they actually build two walls
    between units to reduce noise transmittal by the framing

    re: .3
    What material is the acoustic ceiling tile made of ? How to install
    them onto the ceiling ? put up a gride like the suspend-ceiling?
    
    re: .4
    Does this mean that I had to ripped apart the whole kitchen floor
    first ? Or can I just drill a few holes ( one in-between each joist)
    and blow in the insulation and then somehow plug the holes afterward
    ? Where can I rent the machine to blow-in the insulation ? I'm pretty
    sure there are electrical wire somewhere in the joist. Are the
    insulation non-flamable so it won't caught fire ?
    

>   What material is the acoustic ceiling tile made of ? How to install
>   them onto the ceiling ? put up a gride like the suspend-ceiling?


	when installing acustical tiles you'll have to put up some 
	strapping on the ceiling first- this is what you'll be attaching
	the tiles to ( strapping is only 3/4" thick so you won't
	be loosing too much ceiling height).
	Whatever the size of your tiles are will determine the spacing 
	between strapping ( I think the tiles are useally 12"x12"?)
	Nail the straping to the ceiling joist then staple the tiles
	to the strapping.
	Grossmans gives out pamphlets describing many DIY projects
	check them out.
    
  

   > Does this mean that I had to ripped apart the whole kitchen floor
   > first ? Or can I just drill a few holes ( one in-between each joist)
   > and blow in the insulation and then somehow plug the holes afterward?
   
	I think you might be better off going through the the ceiling.

	And if you plan on doing the tiles as well you won't have to 
	worry about patching.

    

    I know most of the avid users of this conference are DIYer's, but
    as far as the blown in insualtion concept goes, a quick call to
    an insulating company will probably answer alot of questions.  I
    used Quality Insulation from Nashua (I think).
    
    The blown in stuff is available with a fire retardant treatment
    and the materials is used in walls where there are also many 
    electrical wires.  Each joist bay will need a two inch diameter
    hole that can be patched afterwards. If you are putting an acoustic
    ceiling up afterwards, that could easily hide any cosmetic problems
    that result.
    
    I know that insulation blowing units are available to rent, but I 
    couldn't say where. Start with Taylor Rental, etc.  As I think 
    about this, I really think a call to an insulating company is a 
    good idea to see if anyone has done it before.  
                                        

    I don't think insulation will help.  The usual problem is that the
    sound is transmitted from the floor above to the ceiling below by the
    floor joists.  Only by physically separating the ceiling from the
    floor will you get any real relief.
    
    					Steve

    
    GROSSMANS will lend you an insulation blower for 1 day with a purchase
    of 10 or more bags of insulation. If you don't need 10 bags, buy
    them anyway (otherwise they will NOT even let you rent the blower)
    and then return unused bags for a refund (stupid grossmans, right).
    
    You'll probably need only 1 or 2 bags for the average size ceiling.
    And yes, the stuff is flame retardent but does come with some
    do's and don'ts warnings on each bag. If I remember right its about
    $10-$14/bag.
    
    Also, if you are going to put up an acoustic ceiling and don't want
    to spend $$ on 3/4" straping you could buy a 2x4 (preferably as
    long as the room) and rip it on a table saw into 2x1/4" lengths.
    Each 2x4 will yield about 15 straps. Attach these to the ceiling
    joists using something like a 1-1/2" drywall screw/nail. If you
    find the straps splitting, pre-drill nail holes in it. After the
    strapping is up, staple the tiles to it. I've done three ceilings
    in my house like this and its wokred beautifully each time.
    The strapping IS strong enough to hold the ceiling up and I
    experienced little or no splitting (and saved $$).
    
    -Steve T

    re: .8
    
    <<< Only by physically seperating the ceiling from floor will >>>
    
    Do you mean the " acoustic ceiling " that is mentioned in other
    replys ? It appears, from other replys, that the accoustic ceiling
    is stappled onto a wood strip that is nailed to the joist. So it
    actually NOT physically seperating from the ceiling joist. Would
    it still work ?
    
    Does the acoustic ceiling has a smooth face ? We do a lot of pan
    fry cooking so it will be very smooky/greasy in the kitchen. Can
    the acostic ceiling be easily clean or paint like a regular ceiling?
    

    There are several different types of ceiling tile on the market.
    The best thing to do is go down to your local Grossmans and
    take a look at their displays (you'll find them hanging from the
    ceiling). Some tiles are flat, some are textured, some white,
    some colored, some paintable (usually the white ones---with
    regular ceiling paint) and some are not (like the simulated wood
    grains). Shop around (grossmans prices seem high on these items)
    also the fancier tiles are special order in most places.
    
    -Steve

    Re: .10
    
    An acoustic ceiling addition will help some, but the noise will still
    be transferred not only to the ceiling but to the walls as well.
    But it may be enough for you.
    
    Unfortunately, acoustic tile is typically NOT smooth - the many little
    holes are what give it the sound-deadening properties.  Very nasty
    to wash....
    
    					Steve

    Anybody know what "shelving" means?  How much did the t&g Southern
    Yellow Pine floor cost per board foot?

>        Anybody know what "shelving" means?  How much did the t&g Southern
>    Yellow Pine floor cost per board foot?

    I think shelving means just plain finished boards, (not t&g).
    
    Last summer I bought T&G yellow pine at Lancaster-Sterling (MA)
    Lumber for $1.25/bd ft.
    

    Oh, sorry.  I answered your shelving question before reading the
    previous reply.
    
    It means that the shiplap will curl up or down.
    When you walk on the floor it will bounce a little. The edges that
    aren't fastened down will curl up.
    

    Just ordered 330 b.f. of Southern Yellow Pine t&g (8") from Sterling
    Lumber at $1.25 b.f. which includes delivery to Westford.  Good
    so far.  Thanks all!!
    
    I was going to use cut nails to put the flooring down as a lot of
    the floors in the old part of the house are wide pine boards and
    thought this would keep more with the character of the house (150
    years old).  Note 900.* cautions against the cut nails if ever you
    want to sand the floors in the future.

    I am nailing the new floor to a plywood subfloor.  I guess I can
    rent one of the nail guns.  Any experiences or hints that anyone
    can share nailing down SYP are much appreciated?
    
    Dick
        

    As I said, I did a floor with the same wood from Sterling Lumber.
    I used cut nails to put it down.  I haven't had any problem with
    them holding.  My floor is on shiplap, and all the nails go into
    joists.  If you hammer the nails in as far as you can, you'll be
    able to sand the floor.  I sanded mine with a drum sander and had
    no problems with the cut nails.
    
    The wood isn't all exactly the same width.  I found about 3 different
    widths.  When you put two boards end-to-end make sure you have 2 boards
    of the same width.  
    If you haven't put down a T&G floor before, there are all kinds
    of tricks for pulling the boards tightly together.  I hammer a 20D
    nail into a joist and then hammer a wedge between the nail and the
    board I'm trying to push together. (Use a spare piece of T&G so
    you don't crush the floorboard.)

    Another way you could put the floor down is to use a wood-boring
    bit to drill a 1/2" hole half way thru the wood, then screw in a
    sheetrock screw, then plug the hole with a wood plug.  The drum
    sander will make all the plugs flush.  You can soak the plugs in
    stain before using them if you want the plugs to be a different
    color from the rest of the floor.

>        I agree with 12, using cut nails is no problem, because they are
>    not at all visible or even accessible. The nail gun puts the nails
>    in at the 90 degree angle formed by the tongue and the vertical
>    part above the tongue

    This isn't what I meant.  I face nailed the boards.  I wanted the
    nails to show.  I thought it looked better.

I have a 100+ year old Victorian House with out hardwood floors.  It seems the
style demanded carpet and the house was wall-to-walled with, believe it or
not Wilton-Weave Carpet (premium deluxe).  The front entry (little used) still
has the original carpet which is still in great shape.

The rear entry has softwood floors that haven't been covered in the last
50 years.  The softwood floors are cupped, worn and generally in sad shape.
I would like to put parquet floors down but the current flooring wouldn't be 
a very good underlayment.  I'd have to put down masonite.  This entry is 
heavily used and I put area carpet in to protect the floors.

The problem is:
I don't want to appreciably raise the level of the floor.  Add the thickness
of the parquet to the thickness of a masonite underlayment and I'd be running
with a minimum of 1/4 to 3/8" additional thickness.

I thought of this great idea and I need a another opinion.  If I use drywall 
screws to fasten the flooring to the joists and then use a floor leveler to
fill the cracks and eliminate the wearing and cupping and insure the floor
is level.  Would this be sufficient to put parquet down with mastic.


Jim

     This month's Old House Journal has a long article on restoring and 
repairing floors like yours.

Have you looked into flipping the boards?  The basic idea is to take the 
floor up, turn it over, and put it back down.  The cups end up on the 
bottom, the flat surface on the top (until the next guy comes along) and 
the thickness stays the same.  While you're at it, you can check out the
joists and things underneath, (a lot of ugly surprises in old houses)
shim sagging floors back into level, and maybe put in some insulation if
the floor is over a crawlway or something. 

					>>>==>PStJTT

    I'd wouldn't do it if I were you. I'd bet that at some time down
    the road, the areas that have the floor leveler material underneath
    would start failing. I may stand corrected because I haven't had
    alot of experience with spread-on types of floor levelers but it
    sounds like something you could check out with a well trusted tile
    store, or perhaps a flooring company.

A friend of mine had cut nails put in from the top and he he is 10 years later
wanting to sand the floor and NOBODY WILL DO IT!  For some reason there must be
a problem with countersinking the nails that I haven't thought of.  Could it be
that when the wood gets that old and dry that the large heads of cut nails CAN'T
be countersunk?

Just a thought...

-mark

in defense of the moderator, could I respectfully suggest this note's 
title be replaced with a more descriptive one?
thanx

    When you try to drum-sand a floor with face nailing, occasionally the
    sandpaper will explode into a million little pieces upon hitting
    a nail.
    
    If you use wrought iron cut nails (the one's with the rounded heads),
    it might not break up the sandpaper but there will be a circular
    unsanded area around each nail where the sandpaper didn't reach
    the floor.
    
    I've sanded floors with face nailed flooring nails (with the flat
    rectangular heads) and had no problem.
    
    

    re: .4
    
    From "need another opinion" to whatever it is now.  Better?  (It
    was the best *I* could do.)
    
    -joet

Just thought of something else, should I make allowance for expansion
    in the summer as I will be putting it down in March?

    uh, if you're going to pull up the current floorboards, would it
    be reasonable to put down some sort of underlayment-type plywood,
    particularly if you can get some that is thinner than your current
    floorboards (and will meet spec for underlayment)?
    
    Dick

    RE: .2
    
    I would think ripping up the old floor and flipping the boards would
    be a LAST line of defense and not a first.  Undoubtably there would
    be boards damaged and broken in the process.  Where do you get
    replacements if the floor has non-standard materials?  Then what if
    everything doesn't quite fit back together properly?  Sounds like a
    recipe for disaster to me.  I'd never do it.  Has anybody else done
    this?
    
    Phil

    
    
      Have you considered using a belt sander to sand the floor flat,
    and when that is done, woud you have taken enough thickness to be
    able to use an underlayment and the new floor?  Also it only where
    adjoining floors meet that you "taper" the old floor both for fit
    and visual adjustments.

    
      We have a two-family house, very large, oblong shape with enclosed
    front porches and open back porches.
    
    PROBLEM:  It appears that the front of the house is leaving the
    rest of it.  The oak floor in the first floor living room across
    the front of the house was 1/4" away from the baseboard when we
    bought the house 3 years ago.  It is now 1/2" away.  We can see
    the under-flooring.  The walls are not cracked, but you can see
    where the inside wall between the front hall and the living room
    is moving away from the front wall at the bottom.
    
    The house was built in 1929, so it is not a settling problem.
    There has been no landscaping changes and the lot is fairly
    flat.  There is a lot of ledge in the neighborhood.
    
    Who do you see about structural problems?  There seems to be a number
    of contractors throwing up the new homes, but there aren't too many
    with the knowledge to fix this.
    
    My husband and I do almost all of the projects ourselves.  We just
    reconstructed a bathroom floor (support beams, sub-floor, luan board,
    and tiles) a house we just bought near the ocean.  That house....we
    repaired, painted, wall-papered and washed every inch!
    
    This house is too nice to sell.  It has two sets of french doors
    in the living room, every room has oak flooring and more windows
    than I care to wash.
    
    Any ideas will be gratefully accepted.  We just want to do something
    before major problems occur.
    
    Alice

    You probably need to call a structural engineer, or a contractor
    who has an engineer working for him. I am assuming that the problem
    is beyond most contractors. New-construction contractors don't have
    much experience with retrofit solutions to older houses. The person
    you get needs to be a certified structural engineer who can assess
    the problem and design a solution, if one is needed. A contractor
    (or yourselves depending on expertise) can then work from the designed
    plans. A poorly designed solution is worse than none at all since
    you will spend money and still not solve the problem.
    
    Good Luck-
    Larry

    Thank you for the quick response.
    
    I will check with an old school chum who has an Engineering firm
    in my town.  I'll print his recommendation here so we can all
    benefit.  
    
    Alice

    Don't assume that an old house (ie 1929) has finished settling.
    Depending on the ground below the footings, changes in the area
    could start more settling after many years. Water table changes
    in the area have caused problems more than once. If the foundation
    hasn't changed (cracks, shifting, etc) then you may have structural
    problems elsewhere. As in .1, a good structural engineer should
    be able to evaluate the problem.
    
    Eric

I have a section of vinyl floor (manufacturer unknown) which is in 
good shape, except that it has WHITE PAINT SPOTS on it where some
long-gone painter spilled paint.  All the usual cleansers, steel wool, 
(SOS), and paint thinner have been USELESS.  Its a shame, becuase I 
like the pattern, but can't stand the spots.

	Anyone know how to get paint spots off a vinyl floor??????

    Hmmmm... Sounds like it is an oil paint.  In that case, good luck.
    
    Depending on how old it is, I have found if it is latex, sometimes
    just soaking the paint in water will soften it and then it can be 
    scraped off with a finger nail.  Did you try taking something like 
    a sponge soaked in warm water and placing it on the spots, letting 
    it sit, and then seeing if it can be removed?
    
    Sorry, my only suggestion.
    
    Stan

    Careful use of a heat gun (hair dryer) might help soften it so it
    can be scraped off.  If you don't have the fingernails for it use
    a piece of wood.
    
    good luck
    
    Bob

I think I have a better handle on the problem - the paint is on the 
floor - which is under some kind of tough wax finish.  which leads me 
to ask...

	How do YOU strip wax off a vinyl floor?

thanc/j

    Carpenter ants and termites or a rotting sill can cause settling
    in a home's golden years.
    
    -Bob

    Have a strong feeling that isn't the problem.  When we bought the
    house 3 years ago, there was a termite/bug inspector.  Plus my
    husband is always working around the house and he wouldn't miss
    an inch.
    
    What he has done, for the meantime, (until we're through working
    on the house in RI), is nail a board on the floor and we'll keep
    an eye on whether it moves.  
    
    I understand the normal swelling and drying out of the seasons,
    but this gap isn't going away.  Haven't called our engineering
    friend yet, but will report the findings when I do.
    
    Alice

    Earlier in this note is a comment that when you start to put right
    one problem you uncover a whole galaxy of other problems in the
    process.
    
    Wife and I decided to buy and refurbish a fifty year old house that
    a well meaning but incompetant guy had hacked around.
    
    In an upstairs room we found that the wooden floorboards were an
    inch or so lower than the wooden surround that they should touch.
     By removing the ceiling below and looking up I could see that the
    upper storey was supported at one end only !
    
    A bit of detective work showed where a supporting beam had been
    taken away with nothing put there to replace it.  If we had put
    any weight on the floor above then it could have given way, it could
    even have brought the house down.
    
    The moral here is that if it doesn't look right then explore it
    - there is no point in thinking that if you can't see it then it
    doesn't exist.
    
    One amusing incident came out of this.  Having jacked the upeer
    storey up by an inch or so before putting in a new beam, the house
    creaked and groaned like an old sailing ship for well over a week
    after.

    I have never done it but,, If you take the floor boards up and take
    them to one of the small mills (so they won't charge you an arm
    and a leg) they will run the boards through a planer on the top
    only.  You might find that you like the looks of the original flooring
    and keep it that way.  If not, you will have a nice level surface
    for your macenite or whatever subflooring you wish to put down.
    
    Mark,

I'm building  a  150 sq ft 'three season porch' which has a plexiglass roof,
is  attached  to  the  house  and  has  screens on three sides in summer and
plexiglass  in  the  winter.  There is also going to be a hot tub on it. The
roof  is  finished,  the  screens  are almost finished and the subfloor (3/4
plywood) is down.

The question  I have is what to do with the floor. I'd like to make it wood,
but  it  will sometimes get wet from rain blowing in through the screens and
will experience some wetteness from getting in and out of the hot tub.

Oak seems  a little to expensive and I don't think pine will take the water.
I've  seen  a T&G wood called Luan (sp) at Coldwells that the sales guy said
was  basically  philippine  mahogany.  It was perfectly clear, dark red-ess,
looked fairly hard and was very reasonably priced.

Does anyone  have  any  experience  with  this kind of wood? Are there other
alternatives  I  should  investigate? Should I give up on wood and find some
other floor covering?

Thanks in advance, Jim...
    

    If you really have your heart set on wood, there are some prefinished
    types that use a half thickness of oak laminated to a plywood base
    which cost about $2.50 /sq ft. ($375 if you do it yourself) 
    
    The Phillipine mahogany should work but may not stand up quite as
    well as oak (dents and dings). 
    
    Yellow pine is cheaper and very hard.  Straight grained fir is probably
    close to oak in price.
    
    Even indoor-outdoor carpeting will cost you $2.00 /sq ft so the
    marginal cost for oak is really not all that much.
    
    Bob

    I'd say that you'd have a very hard time convincing a mill to do
    that kind of work.  they generally shy away from any kind of used
    lumber as it may have unseen nails in it.  Those unseen nails can
    take quite a bite of the (very expensive) knives on the planers.
    
    I've never seen any shop that'll do used lumber because of this
    
    
    -bill

    I don't think I'd use oak.  When oak gets wet it turns black.  I'm
    afraid you'd be perpetually refinishing the floor, assuming you
    want it to look "nice".
    
    The luan should be good.  You might also consider southern yellow
    pine, or fir.  I'm not sure just how protected this floor is going
    to be, but I gather that it's still basically a porch.  You may
    want to think about treating it more as you would the floor for
    a deck than you would the floor for a room.  In particular, you
    may want to space the boards apart so air can circulate, rather
    than using T&G.

    Opps - I notice you have a plywood subfloor already.  In that case
    the T&G luan, well sealed, should be good.  No matter what you do
    though, it is *going* to discolor, because there is no way to seal
    wood 100% against water.  Slight shrinkage, a slight crack...there
    you are.

    We built a similar porch, however we have a storage shed underneath
    and were concerned with water leaking through onto the contents
    of the shed (also rotting of the subfloor, etc.).  We decided to
    put down a slate floor.  We have a little more than a hundred square
    feet and it cost approximately $100.  Not very difficult to install,
    it's durable and weatherproof and looks fairly nice.
    

      I know that Larkin lumber in Hudson Ma. will do it. At least last
    year they would.  However, as was told to me, if they hit a nail, 
    it's an additional $30 charge for the blades to be resharpened. That
    still sounds cheap to me for their planer blades to be sharpened...
    especially when they have a 30" planer.  I'm not saying that they
    feel comfortable about planing used lumber but they won't refuse
    it. 
    
    -Jim

    
A slate floor? I like the sound of that. Can you tell me more; i.e
what kind of slate is it, where did you get it, how did you attach it,
any special installation/upkeep issues in a porch environment, etc.

I don't know about his specific floor, but slate sounds like a very nice way to 
go for your porch.  You can buy the high grade slate from a tile store, but 
that is very expensive and I for one like the more varied colors of the lower 
grade stuff.  If you watch the sales at Grossman's, you can get the slate for 
about 80-90� a sq ft.  Then at any tile store you can get the mortar, grout, 
and sealer for about another 30-50� a sq ft.  About the only maintenance it 
needs is another coat of sealer every year or so.

One thing if you're going to use slate - you need to make the floor 
considerably stronger than it needs to be for wood - slate won't take any 
flexing without cracking.  Make the joists at least one size larger than they 
need to be, preferably two, or make them one size larger and put them on 12" 
centers instead of 16".  Then cover them with at least 3/4" T&G plywood - some
people use a 1 1/8" T&G.

Paul

    We got the slate at Channel, but as mentioned in -.1 it goes on
    sale from time to time at Grossman's, Channel, etc.  We used an
    adhesive that specified use for slate (I'm not sure there was anything
    special concerning its exposure to outdoors) and a regular grey
    color grout and applied a sealer which must be reapplied periodically.
    
    The only problem we've had is that some of the grout has loosened
    up, but I think that it is because we didn't allow ample spacing
    between the slate tiles.  The grout is easy enough to redo in any
    case.  The floor cleans up beautifully and I have even used acrylic
    floor wax on it (Future, etc.) to give it a shinier look.
    
    As far as floor joists go, I don't think we did anything special
    cause we weren't sure what type of floor we were going to used before
    the joists and subfloor were in.
    
    Valerie

    By the way... where did you get your plexiglass??  Our porch has
    been up for a couple of years with only screens and we'd like to
    get some plexiglass fitted to pop in in the winter time.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Valerie

    I got all the plexiglass from a distributor called Plastics Unlimited
    in Worcester. I believe they only sell 4x8 sheets (and rods, and
    tubes, and ...). Cash only for walk-ins. Outstanding prices. Jim...

    This note has been closed for a while, but I noticed a comment about
    repairing tongue-and-groove flooring.  It is possible to do this
    repair without butting the tongue off the last board.  If you take
    the last two boards, and align them as they would go in, they will
    bulge in the middle.  You can then take a rubber mallet, or a block
    of wood and hammer, and tap the middle bulge down.  As long as you
    are careful to keep the tongues and grooves lined up, this should
    go in without too much trouble.  You can then face nail the board
    at the ends in an inconspicous location (under the baseboard for
    example) and you will have avoided placing any nails where people
    will see.
    
    Ed..
    

    I just moved into a 5yr old home several weeks ago,the house is
    in great shape except for really squeeky floors[the floor is 5/8"
    tongue and groove plywood].Just before we moved in I had a few hours
    to work on the problem before the movers got there.I rented a dry
    wall gun and drove in 250 dry wall screws into the noisy areas[had
    to pull carpet up because ceiling in basement is finished and no
    access to floor joists from below].The floors still squeek,looks
    like it was semi-poor workmanship on relatively good materials[not
    enough nails in flooring].I tried the spiral finishing nail bit
    thru the carpet using a nail set to drive it thru the underlay but
    it really doesn't work all that well.The drywall screws worked well
    but not enough of them put in,I'd like to not pull up the carpets
    again,especially since the furniture is in,also under the kitchen
    linoleum it also squeeks[definately hard to pull up in one piece].
    Looking for any ideas.
    Thanx in advance.
    Les Borda.
    

    I have had simular problems in the past.  I too did not want to
    remove the carpets.  I used regular 8p and 10p finish nails and
    had very good results.  A major problem with most ring nails,
    spiral nails, or coated nails is the fact that once they pull
    back even a little they no longer hold at all.  
    Try it again with regular finish nails and drive them in at just
    a slight angle.
  				GOOD LUCK!!
    

    I'd be very interested in hearing comments on this because I'm planning
    to use a 4" belt sander to do a pine floor and a maple floor. The
    reason I want to use the small machine rather than a rented monster
    is that the wide pine boards are cupped somewhat, and I don't want to
    have to take down the high spots just to reach the low ones. I figured
    that the 4" sander would be easily maneuvered to sand the profile
    of the cup -- without flattening it. My goal is to take off as little
    wood as possible.                     
                       
    On the maple floor, I have the same problem. The maple was laid
    *in line* with the subfloor boards -- not perpendicular to them.
    The cupping of the subfloor boards gives the maple a similar contour.
    Again, I don't want to take lots of wood off to reach the low spots.
    That's why I thought the 4" sander would work best. 
                                           
    Am I wrong in thinking that a large belt sander is not appropriate
    for what I want to accomplish?                               
    
    By the way, neither of the floors have a lot to remove. Both are
    cracked, scratched polyurethane. I'll be finishing them with Watco
    Wood Floor Finish -- an oil-resin-sealer that sinks into the wood,
    and thus can't crack or chip off. I have used it on three other
    floors and it looks and wears great. 
                                         
    I have good kneepads.                
                                         
                                         
                                         

I entered a long reply on this in some other wood-floor-finishing note 
recently, but without taking the effort to find it, the upshot of it is: 
DON'T.  Rent the big sanders.  Taking a little off the edges of the cupped 
boards won't hurt them, and I'm not at all pleased with the way my hallway 
floor came out using a small belt sander - it's nearly impossible to keep it 
flat enough in all situations to get a good smooth surface.

Paul

Re: .3
    
>I entered a long reply on this in some other wood-floor-finishing note 
>recently, but without taking the effort to find it, the upshot of it is: 
>DON'T.  
    
    It's buried somewhere in note 300.  
    
Re: .0
    Note 300 contains a lot a valuable info on the subject of installing
    as well as finishing. I definitely suggest scanning that note.
    
    -Jim
    that note.

    We're planning on using 3/4" yellow pine flooring for most of our first
floor.  This is going directly on top of the 3/4" plywood sub-floor.  We're
also planning on carpeting one room and vinyl-or-linoleum-or-whatever-ing the
kitchen and bath.  We want to have everything wind up reasonably on the same
level.  This is all new construction.
    What thickness underlayment should be used in each case, to match the
3/4" pine?

    I don't think there is an easy answer to this question.
    Won't you have to first decide on the thickness of the carpet and
    other flooring material ?   I would use 3/4 underlayment throughout
    for the first layer of flooring.  Then, select my rugs, etc, and
    simply subtract this thickness from 3/4 " of the pine flooring.
    
    There are various thicknesses of flooring available ( plywood,
    underlayment, etc) , so making up the difference should not be a
    problem.  Talk to the flooring supply dealers.  They usually have
    a crew that also installs some type of underlayment when necessary.
     I know they did for me.  Maybe I'm overlooking something and someone
    else will also reply.   BTW, my floors are a mix between carpet
    and linoleum and they aren't perfectly level from room to room.
    When installed correctly, it isn't really noticeable. And maybe
    it's unavoidable.   Suppose you raised the subfloor so it matched
    perfectly and later on you wanted to carpet over the linoleum ?
    Would you then have to rip up the underlayment ?

Yeah, there's really nothing magical here - you choose your finish
flooring, measure its thickness, and subtract from the pine's 3/4" to
determine how much extra underlayment you need to make things come out
perfectly flush.

If you can be more specific about what types of flooring you're choosing
between, perhaps someone will know whether your proposed materials come in
standard thicknesses.

If ceramic tile is one of your options, you'll need extra-thick underlayment 
for extra stiffness.

    Does anyone have any experiences with builders and the
    flooring/carpeting allowances provided by the builder ?
    
    I am having a house built. It will have 2,650 square feet in living
    space. My question is what might be a fair flooring allowance for
    a house of this size ? and how does the builder arrive at a $
    allowance?
   
    I am trying to determine if the builder is giving me enough $'s
    for the allowance. To make it clearer, the allowance he quoted me
    is $5,200.
    
    Any feedback and experiences will be appreciated.
    
     

    He's giving you $2/square foot.  That's $18/square yard.  I guess
    the questions you need to ask yourself are:
    1. If you want carpeting, can you get carpeting you like for $18/yard.
    2. If you want hardwood flooring, can you get what you want for
       $2/square foot.
    I'm not at all sure, but I'd guess that at those prices you'll be
    able to get "average" quality.  Whether or not that's good enough
    depends on what you want or will be satisfied with.  Visit some
    carpeting places and lumberyards and see what carpeting and flooring 
    costs these days.

    
    And get your quotes, INSTALLED, WITH PADDING. Those two things can
    add $5-6 per yard over the carpet cost.
    
    CdH
    

    Go to a local dealer and tell them how many square feet you are
    talking about. When we did our addition we did that. My wife told
    them "Here is the price from the bargin center carpet dealer. If you can 
    match the price you get the job. " When they saw a large number
    of sq. feet their price matched the bargin shop plus included a better 
    pad.    It pays to try.    

    
    pasco

    And for $2 a square foot, you can't even think about hardwood floors.
    More like $5-6 installed and finished.
    
    Bob

    Standard Carpet allowance that I've seen is in the $17-$20/sq yd
    range, so you're not in an uncommon situation. Off the top of my
    head, I can't remember the allowance my builder had for hardwood
    (what kind makes a big difference).
    
    When you go to the "carpet store", be sure to bring a floorplan.
    You probably don't want the same grade of carpet everywhere in the
    house, and you'll probably want a diversity in color schemes. *Waste*
    (as the installers call it) is something that _you_ will pay for.
    If the room is 10' wide and the carpet comes in 12' strips, guess
    who pays for the extra 2'?! Be sure to request that the 'large'
    extra pieces are left behind for throw rugs, etc. Some firms will
    even bind them for you at no (extra) cost (or minimal).
    
    $18/yd will be "low grade"....$22 is more like it if durability
    is important.
    
    Steve. 

    
    re .5
    
    . Bringing in a floorplan won't do you any good, because they're going
      to want to measure anyways. It may be good for a ballpark figure.
    
    . By having different grades and colors in all the rooms is going
      cost you more, because there's going to be a lot more waste. Some
      of the waste from one room can be used in a closet in another.
      When we bought carpet for our 2 family it was cheaper to buy the
      same carpet for both sides (ours and our tenents) then to get
      a cheaper carpet for our tenents.
    
    Mike

    Using too many different colors and styles of carpet makes the house
    look a lot smaller - it chops up the space visually.

    I'm currently ripping out carpeting and flooring to tie a house
    together (visually).
    
    	-Barry-
    

    The allowance of about $18/sq. yd. is average.  You'll be able to
    get a decent carpet for that price range.  As others have mentioned,
    however, if you get into hardwood floors or tile, you won't have
    enough.  
    
    Then you'll probably consider tile backsplash for the kitchen, or
    tile walls in the bathroom(s).  That's not covered by the allowance
    either.  Price for tile will be anywhere from $6-? per sq. ft.
    installed, depending on what you want/like/can afford.
    
    Builders have this idea about how much money to charge per sq. ft.
    of living space, which is how they come up with "allowance" figures.
    We had an allowance of about $550 for lighting, and we spent that
    on 3 fixtures.  Also extra was a ceiling fan in the bathrooms. 
    You may want to ask about that.  Local code didn't require a fan
    if there was a window, but do you want to open the window in January?
    
    Are you getting a credit of $5200, or does your builder have an
    agreement with a local flooring place that you must go to?
    
    	Ted

    Re.8
    
    My builder has an agreement with a floor/tile company.

    I'll agree -- it is VERY difficult to live within a carpet/flooring
    budget.  We were given about $6000 to do a 2400 sq. ft. contemporary.
    So far it's cost us $849 for a 12x28 remnant -- which doesn't include
    pad or installation!  We're using Post Rd. Carpet in Acton, builder-
    recommended and convenient to us, and all we know is that we're
    getting 5% 'discount'.  Problem is, how do you then know just how
    much you have to spend?  Especially if the builder says he can still
    get us a better deal?
    
    Armstrong vinyl runs in the $22 range for kitchen-grade stuff, $18
    for bathroom grade.  Vinyl tiles cost almost as much as wood flooring,
    once you include installation -- about $45/sq. yd.  We found decent
    carpeting, Bigelow [not sure if it's polyester or nylon] on sale
    there for $17.99 including thin pad and installation; we will have
    to upgrade the pad, no doubt.
    
    Lots of fun...
    
    sandy
    
    

    Having stripped my bathroom floor down to the 3/4" underlayment,
    I'm now faced with putting it back together.
    
    Is there a layer that goes between the underlayment and the (to
    be installed) vinyl flooring? The previous owner had tar-paper
    on the inderlayment, masonite on top of that followed by the
    final layer of tiles.
    
    ...seems I need a smoother surface than what the underlayment is
    able to provide.
    
    Comments? Suggestions?
    
    Thanks...
    
    Edd

    1/4" luan plywood is typically used over the subfloor to get a smooth
    surface for the vinly flooring.  The luan is manufactured with no
    internal gaps, so that a high heel won't puncture the vinly and
    the plywood.
    
    Nail it down with ring nails or screw it down with drywall screws.
    Use floor leveler to fill any gaps and nail depressions.
    
    1/4" luan is about $10 a 4'x8' sheet.
    
    Bob

    	Make sure the underlayment is nailed down real good using
    underlayment nails.  It should be about 4" along the edges and 8"
    in the field.  Make sure the nails are countersunk below the surface
    a bit so they will not show through the vinyl flooring.
    	There is a plaster like material that is used for covering the
    floor before putting down the vinyl or tile flooring.  It is cheap,
    $3 for a 5 lb bag that will cover a 10'x12' room.  Put in on with
    a wide putty knife or joint compound knife, filling in the nail
    heads, seams, and other dents in the plywood.
    				=Ralph=
    
    its easy, really

    Just so you know, Deck House figures an allowance of $38/sq. yd.
    for flooring.  Of course, they expect you to tile the entry way,
    kitchen and all baths.  They also expect that you will use a lot
    of hard wood downstairs and a good quality carpet upstairs.
    
    This is considered to be a very high allowance figure.  But, it
    is interestingto know.

    We'll be installing the tongue-and-groove pine flooring in our new house,
as well as interior trim, such as hanging doors.

    1.  What comes first - pre-hung doors or floors?

    2.  Assuming floors come first (pre-hung door frames can be cut nicely),
where should the joints be between the pine floor and the carpet/vinyl other
floors?

    
      It will be a lot easier to put the pine flooring in, less cuts
    around the door casings, if the doors go in last. In areas where
    carpet is being installed on both sides of the jamb then I would
    put th doors in. Because the carpet installer can cut to fit just
    as easy as if the jamb wasn't there. If your going to put baseboard
    in the room where the pine is, you might also want to put that in
    later as well. As far as where seams go, I can only tel you where
    the installers put them in my house. Carpet to Carpet, they made
    them meet at the door stop on the jamb. In our hall we have Italian
    tile, which they made meet the carpet half way in the middle of
    the arch going from one room to another.
    

    I've been told by an old house builder that in the old days, they'd
    cap the foundation, and lay a hardwood floor over the cap BEFORE
    they did any framing.  In other words, the floor comes before the
    door frames or any of the trim.  It's a real pain to trim door frames
    in place and to remove baseboard trim without ruining it.
    
    When I put the hardwood floors into my house, I went halfway through
    the door opening and let the guys laying the carpets or lino do
    the rest.  
    
    BC
    

    My hardwood floors (about 30 yrs. old) were installed last; after
    all the door frames and base boards were installed.  The reason
    for doing the floor last is so there never is any gaps between the
    floor and the baseboards.  The other way, as the house settles,
    gaps will always appear between the wood baseboard and floor.
    
    In my newly built addition which has wall-to-wall carpets, the trim
    was done before the carpeting.  The base boards, however, were
    installed about 1/4 of an inch above the plywood flooring to compensate
    a little for the thickness of the rugs.  Otherwise, if the base
    boards were installed directly meeting the plywood, the rugs would
    bury most of the base boards.
    

    Just as an outside observation:
    
    If you put in the door casings first, then the flooring, you are
    going to have a rough time of ever removing the door frames somewhere
    down the road. Now, not everyone wants this capability, but I can't
    see ruining the door casing and/or the floor just to pop the door
    out.
    
    Mike (who encountered some difficulty de-ciphering .3!)
    

    We're installing 8" tongue-and-groove southern yellow pine flooring in
our new house - roughly 600 square feet of coverage.

    I've heard about the flooring-nailing guns that are supposed to position
and drive the nail at just the right angle at just the right spot in the
tongue.  Is that the only spot we need to nail in the 8" board?  If not, what
types of nails are recommended for driving straight through the boards -
ring-shanked, spiral, square?

    What options should I look/ask for when renting the flooring nailer?
What kind of nails to they handle?

    Our lumber supplier recommends some kind of paper between the pine and
the sub-floor, supposedly to eliminate one kind of wood-on-wood squeaking.

I recently installed a door in what was previously just an archway.  The casing
was put in first and then the floors.  When I removed the casing and molding
they left a notch in the floor.  Whne I installed the new door I just slipped
it into the groove.

I remember raising this over a year ago and one of the opinions (I think it was
Paul's) was that the reason casing is usually put in first is that's the order
the contractors are brought in and it has almost nothing to do with the "right"
way.

One thing to note is that the door I bough has about an inch gap bwteen the door
and the bottom of the framing.  This could either assume you're putting in the
flooring last and it's leaving the gap so you don't have to trim the door OR 
it's assuming you putting in the door last but installing carpets.

In my case I want to frame some doors in my new addition and probably won't get
around to the hardwood floor for at least another year (btw - the polyurethane
over the plywood did wonders to eliminate dust, but that's another note).  My
current thoughts are to put in the doors now and when I get ready to do the 
floor if it proves to be too difficult to cut around the door (and I don't 
really think it'll be all that bad), I can undercut the frame and slide the
flooring under it.

-mark

    That's right, that is the only spot we need to nail in the 8" board.
    (except for the last course or two because the wall prevents hammer
    swing.) For the last course -or two- up against the wall i imagine
    fairly substantial small headed screw nails would be used, counter sunk,
    and perhaps filled with either pine wood filler or -say- glue mixed
    with saw dust. I believe that you will find that any store that
    rents the floor nailing gun (e.g. Taylor Rental in Mass.) will give
    you all the instructions and nails you need to do the job.

    
    				herb

    I think one reason many contractors usually put in the floor last
    is so they (their crew) don't destroy it while installing the door
    jams and finish work.  This way, while doing the finish work, a
    table saw in the middle of a room their working on can stay there
    and they don't have to worry about dropping any tools on the sub-floor.
    

    When you nail the flooring to the sub-flooring,  nail directly over
    a joist, then over the next joist and one or two in between.  This
    will help tremendously to prevent squeaks.  I did this upstairs
    and compared to the 'professional' job done downstairs there is
    substantial difference.  The downstairs squeaks.
    
    Be SURE that the sub flooring is adequately nailed.  Use spiral
    nails - liberally.

    I'll be building next spring and plan on shimming the door jambs
    to the desired finished floor thickness while hanging them.
    This is out of necessity putting the doors first, since
    I'll be milling the radom width hardware floors myself from 
    green rough cut oak. It will take at least 12 moths of drying in
    the unbuild attic. The foreman (my wife) thinks its to long to go
    without doors, but can live with the 3/4" gap at the bottoms.
    
    One advantage for putting down the floors last is the subfloor
    takes all the abuse during construction.
    
    /Jim

so if you shim the doors do you also cut off 3/4" from the jambs to eliminate
the gap under the door?

-mark

    When two different types of floors meet, I like to have them meet
    under the center of the door (not the frame) so when the door is
    closed, you can't see the joint from either side.  If there is to
    be no door, then I join them on one side or the other so the passage
    way is associated visually with only one room.
    

    ^.10	Yes, you would hang the door jamb just as if the finished
    		floor was in place.
    
    		/Jim

[I could put this almost anywhere, and it concerns some advice I've seen in
here somewhere, but:  1. I couldn't find it just now  and  2. the base note
title is the one I want.]

All the advice I've seen so far concerning laying tongue-and-groove flooring
says to leave a gap against walls to allow for expansion.  This sounds well and
good.  But I got to wondering whether this was really necessary.  This gap
only exists between one board and the wall.  If my room is 20 or 40 boards
wide, each one nailed firmly to the floor (and preferably floor joists), this
gap would be "used" only by that one board against the wall, yes?

Consider boards A, B, C & D, positioned against wall W, thus:
    |   |   |   |   |   |
    | W | A | B | C | D | ...
    |   |   |   |   |   |
Each board is securely nailed to the floor and/or joists.  Can board C move
anywhere?  If it "tries" to expand, won't its nails, and the nails of boards
B and D, prevent it from expanding?  If all boards are snug against each other
to start with, especially when they're installed in the dry winter, what can
expand into the gap between board A and wall W except board A?

(I know baseboard will cover any gaps.  It's the thought that counts.)

Unrelated question.  Is paper laid between boards and 3/4" plywood subfloor?
If so, what kind?

I can't give you any "experienced" explaination about floors... I haven't done
any...

But I can tell you one thing about wood...IT'S GOING TO MOVE, AND NAILS WON'T
STOP IT!

If you snug up your floor board to the walls for a nice tight fit this winter,
then the only place left for the wood to move when, (not if...WHEN) it expands
in the summer is UP! And it will pull the nails right up with it.

Don't underestimate the power of wood!  Remember, it works on waterpower!

As for your drawing, when any, or more likely ALL of the boards start to 
expand in the summer humidity, they will begin to move across the grain.
By leaving a space at the end, you will allow the wood to move toward the
walls, without restriction FROM the walls.  As soon as the wood expands
far enough to hit the walls, the walls will provide greater resistance side-
to-side than the nails can provide DOWN, and the floor will buckle.

So although its hard to fathom the idea that a board in the center of the
room, securely nailed in place, can benefit from a gap against the wall...
it does!

Thats also one of the reasons no sane person tried to glue down a hardwood
floor...  nails let the wood move.

My $.02...  Bob

>Thats also one of the reasons no sane person tried to glue down a hardwood
>floor...  nails let the wood move.
>
>My $.02...  Bob

My 6 year old wide oak plank flooring is held in place with mastic and screws!
No problem yet!

Ross

re: < Note 505.6 by WOODRO::THOMS "Ross - 264-6457" >

>My 6 year old wide oak plank flooring is held in place with mastic and screws!
>No problem yet!

Congratulations!

As alluded to in previous replies, there's more expansion along the grain
than across it, so gap G is more important than gap g:

    +----------------------
    |           W
    |   +------------------
    |   |       G
    |   | +---+---+---+---+
    |   | |   |   |   |   |
    | W |g| A | B | C | D | ...
    |   | |   |   |   |   |


>  Unrelated question.  Is paper laid between boards and 3/4" plywood subfloor?
>  If so, what kind?

Yes, you're supposed to use paper to eliminate squeaks between the floor and 
subfloor.  Either red rosin paper or so-called "construction paper" will do 
the trick.  Any lumberyard, including the one where you bought your flooring, 
should have the stuff.  It's cheap.

Unfortunately, the paper covers up the nailheads on the subfloor, so you can't 
tell where the joists are any more.  A good excuse to buy a stud sensor and a 
chalk line...

Uh, excuse me Dave?  Assuming I'm reading your diagram and text correctly, you 
are 180� out of phase. :^)  There is NO appreciable expansion lengthwise on a 
board, and there is no necessity of leaving ANY gap at the ends of floorboards.
This is gap G in your diagram, and it doesn't even need to exist.  Gap g is the 
one that is necessary for expansion, as wood expands/contracts ONLY across the 
grain.

Paul

Well, I spent New Year's weekend laying 500 some odd square feet of 8"
SYP T&G flooring (Southern Yellow Pine  tongue & groove).  I'm a bit
disappointed - with the amount I enjoyed it and the quality of the wood.

WARNING - when installing tongue and groove flooring, don't be tempted to
kick the board into a snug fit, do it right by getting down on the floor and
whack a scrap piece against the board-to-be-fitted with a hammer.
Stepping on both boards with my left foot, to line up the tongue and groove,
I "back-kicked" the new board with my sneakered heel.  Worked fine.  Now the
back of my knee joint is very sore.

Yellow pine might be harder and more durable than white pine, but I'd much
rather "work" with white pine.  The yellow splintered a lot, didn't smell
as nice, and ... oh, I just like white pine better.

We had a LOT of waste!  Dings, scratches, gouges, etc. which could be either
the yard's fault or the mill's fault.  A LOT of warping or bowing that the
nailer just couldn't take out.  (I read somewhere in here of someone's Dad
using a hydraulic car jack - mine didn't work horizontally.)  I imagine
narrower boards would be more forgiving.

Disclaimer:  our boards were delivered before we had heat in the house and
*before* the drywaller/painter put gallons of moisture in the air to be
sucked up by anything dry-ish.  Then when the heat came on ... warp.
The guy at the yard we ordered from said he'd swear on his mother's grave
that this is why we had so many un-useable boards.  He's a trustworthy guy,
but ... now we have to buy another 15 8-footers.  (I'll try his good nature
and work for some kind of deal.)

Something I'm concerned about.  My 8" boards *averaged* 6 7/8" in actual
surface width.  I measured some that were 1/16" narrower or wider.  Would the
kind of cool-moist/warm-dry environment change I described account for a
whole 1/8" width variation?  This may sound imperceptible, but, believe me,
when you lay a floor, you notice 1/32" differences, and less.

    Just to add some more data points to the "leave a gap or don't leave
    a gap" discussion..
    
    My father and grandfather layed the oak flooring in my dad's house
    32 years ago (hand nailed with cut nails-phew!!).  Back then,
    baseboards were installed first and floorboards were scribed to
    fit tightly-it was the "craftsman's" way according to my dad.
    
    There has never been any buckling of the floor.  The hardwood floors
    in my house were done the same way, and no buckling.
    
    However, we layed the new floors in the addition first, with a gap
    and then put on the baseboards.  Why? Because its a lot easier.
    And if it eliminates a chance of buckling, that's good too.
    
    Bob
    

>< Note 505.7 by MISFIT::DEEP "Sometimes squeaky wheels get replaced!" >
>                                    -< 8^) >-
>
>re: < Note 505.6 by WOODRO::THOMS "Ross - 264-6457" >
>
>>My 6 year old wide oak plank flooring is held in place with mastic and screws!
>>No problem yet!
>
>Congratulations!


No need to congratulate me, I was just trying to correct some of the 
misinformation given out as advice.

Ross

>    < Note 505.12 by WOODRO::THOMS "Ross - 264-6457" >
>
>
>>< Note 505.7 by MISFIT::DEEP "Sometimes squeaky wheels get replaced!" >
>>                                    -< 8^) >-
>>
>>re: < Note 505.6 by WOODRO::THOMS "Ross - 264-6457" >
>>
>>>My 6 year old wide oak plank flooring is held in place with mastic and screws!
>>>No problem yet!
>>
>>Congratulations!
>
>
>No need to congratulate me, I was just trying to correct some of the 
>misinformation given out as advice.
>
>Ross
>
>

    No problem, he put in the smiley face at the top!

    Just goes to show, everybody's situation is different and will produce
    different results.
    
    Phil

    
    It is my understanding (having never had a problem with squeaky floors)
    that if you dump some talc on the floor and sweep it around, making
    sure that you work it into the cracks, the squeaking will stop,
    or at least be lessened.  I don't know anyone who's done it, but
    I'v read it in several 'handyman'-type books.  Under the lino is
    another story; maybe you could get at the floor from underneath
    (if you have access to the joists).  The powder application in this
    case would be quite the mess ...
    
    					Frank 

    How would I tall which side of the board is the tongue side and
    which is the groove.  I know it is easy with the end of the board
    visible, but if I am going to take some wood out of the closets,
    I want to minimize the number of boards I damage.
    
    Also, what do I do if the length of the boards in the closet don't
    make it all the way across the patch?  Should I just butt them
    together?  Will that be ok?  It seems like that is how they would
    have been installed originally, right?
    
    Ed..
    

    I need to replace a few of the pieces of a hardwood floor.  The
    pieces are 3/4" thick and 3" wide.  Basically I want to repair the
    area where I took out the framing for a closet.  Since the floor
    was laid around the closet framing I now have a 4" wide by 3 ft
    long "hole" where my closet used to be.  Rather than patch the hole
    I'd like to take up the pieces of the floor that were cut to fit
    around the framing members and replace them.  Anyone know the best
    way to do this?  The floor is tongue and groove.  Since I'm going
    to be replacing full lengths of flooring my biggest problem is how
    do I take a board out when I can't get access to either the tongue
    or the groove?  Do I use a circular saw to cut it out and then work
    from there?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    Deja Vue...I think this is covered in another note I read out there but...
    
    The usual technique is to saw one board down the middle and then
    pull out the piece with the grove side. You'll then be able to 
    pry up the adjoining tongue around each nail and remove an entire
    board (relatively) intact. Expect some loss due to tongues that
    break - success will be based upon how careful you are, what kind
    of nails were used, how solid the nailing was, etc. You may be able
    to tell which side to start from by peeking under the baseboard
    at the end of a wall or at the side. 

    It seems that my sectional sofa *which sits on a wooden floor* will
    not stop from sliding/shifting around. I had cut small squares of 
    flexible rubber and placed them under the legs, but with time, 
    they wore out. Because I am looking for an area rug, I'm beginning
    to think I should get a size large enough so the sofa can sit *on*
    it, and put the legs in those clear plastic squares with the teeth
    on the bottom. It seems a shame to buy such a large piece of rug
    8'x 10'1/2" just so my sofa won't shift! Does anyone have any ideas
    to keep the sofa from moving on my wooden floor?
    
    Also, where are the carpet places that would have more contemporary
    styles to choose from. My idea of contemporary would be bold stripes
    in rust and beige, but try and find that! Has anyone ever seen something
    in those colors? I live in Nashua, N.H. and the carpet places there
    do not have what I'm looking for. Scandinavian Design was close,
    but they are no longer in Nashua. If you have ever seen the graphics
    on a Coke can (wide to narrow stripes)........that's what I want.
    
    Any help on either problem would be appreciated.
    Shelley

    You can get floor protectors that are made for keeping furniture
    from sliding on hrd flooring -- they are sort of like rubber versions
    of the same device (sans teeth!) you use on carpets, and are sold
    in the same section of department stores.
    
    You might call an interior decorator for a very contemporary design
    area rug.  They have access to showrooms in Boston that we mere
    mortals aren't allowed in.  You won't get the world's cheapest price
    that way, but it's an option.
    
    (Scandinavian Design is bankrupt.  They are all gone everywhere.
    Or anyhow that's the story I was told.)
    
    It occurs to me that another place that MIGHT have catalogs of
    contemporary area rugs to order is that wooden furniture place at
    Pennichuck Square on 101A in Merrimack. Pampanoosic Mills or something
    like that.
    
    Sherry  

         I had the same problem with furniture moving around on a pine
         floor.  I fashioned 'protectors' out of oak, nicely trimmed
         and finished, and nailed them to the floor where the legs
         sit.  Because of how the fabric on the couch hangs, you can't
         see them.  Even if you could, they look like part of the
         couch.

    I apologize if this is asked and answered elsewhere.  I looked,
    but didn't find what I need.
    
    What is used or could be used to cover? the seam where vinyl or
    linoleum flooring meets a pine floor.  
    
    Particularly if the pine is slightly thicker then the vinyl floor?

    One seam is in a doorway, and I know I could use a threshold there
    if I have to, but the other is not a doorway, just the end of the kitchen
    and the begining of the hall.

    There are special metal (aluminum, brass, etc.) strips used just
    for this purpose.  They come with the nails also and are just cut
    to size and nailed through to the floor.
    
    
    Jack

    My keep it simple approach would be to buy an appropriate piece
    of hardwood molding, trim it to match the height difference between
    the wood floor and vinyl floor and nail it in place with slightly
    countersunk finishing nails. 
    
                                        /Molding trimmed to height
    ___________________________________/                vinyl floor   
       pine floor                 |____\_______________/_________________
    ______________________________|______________________________________
    
    
    I'm sure there are other ways. Talking to a local installer of vinyl
    floors might yield some other approaches.
    
    Jim

    I have the metal strips cited in .1.  They are an eyesore where
    they meet the wood floors.  The recommendation in .2 would produce
    a much better looking effect, in my opinion.
    
    	Marlene

    This Old House last Thursday showed an interesting technique for
    repairing sections of hardwood flooring.  Say you have this situation:
                                            
    _______________________________________
    _______________|  1    |________________
    _____|_________|  2    |_________|______
    _________|_____|  3    |_____________|__
    ______|________|__4____|_____|__________ 
                        
    You can fill in space 1 (as long it's of reasonable length and
    staggered far enough away from the board above it)
    
    Now you have to cut back the boards in line with space 2.  If you
    don't want to cut back all the way to the end of the boards, you
    draw a line across the board 8 or 10" back and drill a hole on the
    waste side through the board AND the sub floor.
    
    Then using a sabre (Jig) saw cut the board using the reference line.
    Note: this also leaves a slice in the subfloor.   Rip the board
    with a circular saw (set at the thickness of the board) and pry
    it out.  
    
    Now that that's as clear as mud, I'd be interested in opinions
    (particularly from those who saw it).  Anybody have a problem with
    a bunch of 2 1/4" slices in their subfloor?
    
    Bob

    In the next few weeks I'm going to be sanding and refinishing my
    dining and living room red oak floors.  The layout of the floors
    is a s follows:
    	
    		---------------------------------
		|	     |    |		|
    		|	     |    |		|
    		|  section   |    | section 2   |
    		|     1	     |    |		|
    		|............|    |		|
    		|				|
    		|_______________________________|
    The divider is the stairs.  Since the house is small I can't finish
    the floors all at once unless the family wants to live out of the
    kitchen and master bedroom for the duration. I'd like to finish
    the floor in the 2 sections shown with section one being the dining 
    room and section two being the living room and the part of the floor 
    common to both rooms.  I would empty section 1 and sand the floor.
    Then move the furniture from section 2 into section 1 and sand that
    part (with me so far?). For finishing I could either put 1 coat of 
    finish on section 2 let it dry, move the furniture out of sec. 1 and 
    finish that part, repeating the process for all 3 coats or finish one 
    section with 3 coats and then move furniture and finish the other section.
    Sounds like a lot of moving stuff but the floors aren't that big
    and a lot of the furniture will be removed from the rooms competely.
    
    	I have 2 concerns, feathering the different sanding operations
    so there are no start/stop marks and then doing the same for the
    finish.  For either operation I don't think I'll have a problem
    since the dividing line between the sections of floor is with the
    grain but is there a best way to do this?  Is it better to finish
    one side completely before doing the other or will it look better
    if I blend in the finish for each section coat by coat?
    
    George

I'd get all of the furniture out of there for the sanding, and since it was out 
I'd leave it out for the finishing.

For finishing, I can think of two options:

1) Get a finish that dries in 8 hours or less, and put on a coat before you go 
   to bed for three consecutive nights, letting it dry overnight.

2) If you can't do that, then stagger your seams between coats.  In other 
   words, put on the first coat in one section, and then the first coat in the
   other section.  When you start the second coat, use a different place in the
   floor for the seam between sections.  And a third place for the third coat,
   if you use one.  Be sure to make the seams with the grain and not against 
   it, seams across the grain will likely show no matter what you do.

Paul

    Any furniture (and anything else, for that matter) left in the room
    will be absolutely covered with sawdust.  Anything porous (e.g.
    upholstery) will be absolutely saturated with sawdust.  Get everything
    out of those rooms that you can.
    
    How about a nice rug at the foot of the stairs to hide the seam?  :-)

    You might consider using the "Fabulon" water-based finish described
    in note 3104.3 by a respected noter [me ! (8-) ]. It will be ready
    to recoat in one hour. You could do all the finish work in one day.
    
    I don't have any long term wear experience with it but I wasn't
    too concerned since the area I did was relatively small. You might
    be able to get some wear info from the Fabulon people. 

    Does anyone have any experience with placing waterbeds, on top of
    2 X 8 floor joists, over a 13 foot span, over a lathe and plaster
    ceiling?  Should I reinforce the joists?  I'm finishing of an attic
    upstairs.  The floorboards are off and now is the time to do it.
    
     

    That span for 2 x 8 sounds too long for a load bearing floor, even
    without a waterbed (don't have my joist tables handy though). Doubling
    the joists may be one answer to your problem if you have access
    to them from the top, but you might still end up cracking the plaster
    ceiling.
    
    Eric

    Check the deck building notes for the tables for size of lumber/
    span.
    
    This Old House (I know, I know) suggested using a pneumatic nailing
    gun to toenail new joists to old joists when converting a ceiling
    into a floor.  They claim this transfers less shock to the ceiling
    below and therefore less cracks in the ceiling.

	You didn't say what the spacing of the joists is, but assuming they 
are 16" OC, the floor is not adequate to satisfy most building codes that I
know of.  According to the "Allowable Spans for Floor Joists" table, the 
maximum span for 2x8's at 16" OC and using Group III grade lumber (this
includes #2 Eastern Hemlock and White Spruce among others) and having a
plastered ceiling below is 9'0".  In order to meet the minimum standard for a
13' span, you need to go to 2x10s (16" OC).  Even that is cutting it close, I
would go to 2x12s or to 2x10s of a higher grade of lumber (Douglas Fir or
#1 Eastern Hemlock) just to be certain, 

	As far as the waterbed goes, its per/foot� load is no more than that 
of a large refrigerator.  Any floor that cannot support a waterbed should
probably be condemned. 

							--Mike

    I can verify the previous.  2x10 will make it but 2x12 would certainly
    feel more solid.
    
    Ceiling joists with an attic above are rarely made big enough to
    support turning the attic into a real room.  In fact in conventional
    framing the ceiling joists' primary function is to keep the roof load
    from pushing the walls out and almost anything will work for that. Even
    if you load an attic with junk it's mainly static (dead) load - you're
    not likely to have a cocktail party or much dynamic load up there. 

    re- .3...
    
    I've heard that a standard 4 leg mattress/boxspring set has a higher
    pounds per square inch than a water bed.  This is because the weight
    of the water bed is spread out over a much larger surface...
    
    re- .4...
    
    He's right.  If the floor can't support that weight, you need to
    condemn it.  *8)

    Help!  I've called local code and they say that 2 X 8's meet code.
    The house was designed with an unfinished attic (but meant to
    eventually be finished) we are talking 750 sq ft. with 12 foot vaulted
    ceilings.  I can't replace the old joists with 2 X 10's or 12's
    because it would be cost/skill prohibitive.  Won't I substantially
    increase the strength by adding either 2 X 6's or 2 X 8's nailed
    to the side of the existing 2 X 8's?  They are 16 oc.  The framing
    job back then (1935) is superb with solid lumber.  I can't condem
    it.  

    I don't understand how you can say that if a floor can't handle
    a waterbed it should be condemned.  What about all of these old
    houses that landlords don't allow waterbeds on the second floor
    and above?  It makes perfect sense.  Water weighs 8 pounds per gallon.
     I don't know how many gallons a waterbed holds, but I am sure it
    is quite alot.  My fish tank is 50 gallons (which I am sure is less
    than a waterbed) and that weighs 400 pounds for just water.
    
    I would not assume that a waterbed would go in anywhere.  That is
    an awful lot of weight for me.  And the people below are the ones
    who will get the shower if you are wrong.
    
    Ed..
    

    
    
       After delivering waterbeds through my college years and putting
    many in old houses, in attics and garage apartments. I have yet to
    see one go through a floor. As stated before, a waterbeds weight is
    minimal because of the honeycomb type frame underneath. The only real
    problem I ever ran into was leaks.
    
    BAL

    re .7:
    
    I think the code requires a minimum rating for a floor in lbs/sq ft.,
    (don't remember what the usual requirement in Mass. is - 50 lbs/sq
    ft.???).  It assumes that the entire floor must be able to hold
    if it is completely covered to that loading.  (This is my long ago
    memory of buying a water bed.)  While the total weight of a water bed 
    is great, the point weight is less than a lot of other ordinary pieces 
    of furniture.
    
    So if your buildings floors can't hold a water bed...
    
    /Dave

    The principle of weight distribution of a waterbed is the same for
    the Eifle Tower in Paris.  The Eifle Tower rests on the Earth with
    no more weight per square foot than a grown up sitting in a chair.
                                                     
    re .6?
    
    Now how about reinforcing the floor joists?  Is it possible to gain
    a certain degree of strength by reinforcing 2 X 8 floor joist by
    nailing 2 X 6's against them?  How much strength?

    The reason landlords don't allow waterbeds are twofold: one is they
    are worried about floods.  Most waterbed stores will sell you a
    special insurance policy that satisfies some landlords.  The other
    reason a landlord does not allow a waterbed is if water is included
    in the rent.  They figure it is unfair to other tenants who don't
    use as much water.
    
    From my own experience.
    
    Elaine

Water weighs 62.5 pounds per cubic foot.
A king sized water bed is what, 6 by 6� feet?
How thick is a waterbed mattress?  6"?  8"?
With those measures, the total weight of the bed is about 20 cubic feet
of water, about 1250 pounds, or 30 to 40 pounds per square foot,
and a waterbed frame typically spreads the weight across more joists
(without depending the floor boards) than does a typical caster/fourposter.

Two people sleeping in the bed adds about 25% to the weight.

Four people sitting in a typical 7' living room sofa load the floor
at over 40 pounds per square foot!

Don't sweat the bed (but keep it close to the wall, just to reduce the moment
arm on the span () ).

Landlords say "no" because it's easier than saying yes.
The waterbed above holds 300 gallons, not even one full day's use
of a common toilet.

- tom]

    
>    Landlords say "no" because it's easier than saying yes.
> The waterbed above holds 300 gallons, not even one full day's use
> of a common toilet.
                                                         
    Uh, excuse me, but I believe the reason some landlords might
    say no, is that they have seen what water on a second floor
    can do to a ceiling below.  It's bad enough to deal with
    leaky bathrooms, kitchen sinks and washing machines.
    
    No landlord in his or her right mind would say no because of
    the water used.  My water bill is on the order of 100,000
    gallons per year.  The amount of water used for water bed is 
    insignificant.

Building code ratings for floor loads are (live loads, meaning not counting the 
weight of the floor itself): First floor and living area: 40 PSF, Second floor 
and bedroom areas 30 PSF, and attic/storage areas 20 PSF.

Even if you strengthen the existing joists, you may very well crack the 
plaster below when you put in a waterbed.  What I would do is the following 
(And this really doesn't take much carpenter's skills:  Between the existing 
joists on each end, I would nail a short (foot long) block of 2x4, lying flat 
on the header of the wall below.  Then I would get new 2x12 joists (2x10s would 
be ok, but I like a stiff floor), and put them on that blocking in between the 
existing joists.  The new floor would thus be entirely separate from the old, 
the old joists would be doing nothing but holding up plaster, and you would run 
no chance of cracking the plaster below.

Paul

< Note 3117.14 by CLOSET::T_PARMENTER "Dig, and be dug in return." >
                                -< Ocean liner >-

    I have had a waterbed since the hippie era and I've busted a bag
    or two in that time, but I've never had a flood.  All water beds
    have a liner inside the frame that retains any leakage.  Even with
    a one-foot slit in the bag, most of the water stays inside the bag
    and all of it stays inside the liner.
    
[old joke removed]

    re .15
    
    Thanks for the great idea!  Rather than put the false floor throughout
    the entire attic (750 sq. ft.) I'll put it in the only area a bed
    could go.  By doing this, the effect will be a pedestle for the
    waterbed.  After checking through some interior design magazines,
    the 4 inch step up to the bed will look as if it had been put there
    for aesthetic reasons not structural.  Since the location is really
    the only logical place to put a bed, future home owners will hopefully
    see it as a plus.  Avoiding cracked ceilings is an added benefit.
    Do you suppose the cost of laying the carpet will increase now that
    the carpet layer will have to go up and over a platform?
    
    Thanks again Paul!
    
    Jerry

>< Note 3117.6 by MUSKIE::HEYMANS >
>                        -< It just can't be condemed! >-

	I never meant to imply that your floor should be condemned!  Only that
any floor that can't support a WB (and subsequent notes seem to back me up)
can hardly be trusted to support anything.

	Yes, Paul has given you a good suggestion but I think you are selling
it short if you only do it in the area where the bed will go.  I have serious
doubts about your local inspector if he OKed a living space floor consisting
of 2x8's on a 13' span.  It will bounce you around like a trampoline and surely
destroy the ceiling below.  Spend a little more time and money upfront to do
the job right and you won't have to regret it every time you walk across that
floor.

			Just MHO...		--Mike

re .18
    
    The false floor will cover almost all of the space in the attic
    where the thirteen foot stretch of 2 X 8 floor joists exist.  All but
    about eighteen inches on each side of the false floor that is.  Certainly
    not enough to create a trampoline effect.  If I covered the eighteen
    inch stretch you would find yourself stepping up and over the platform 
    just to get around.  The rest of the attic has no more than ten foot spans
    and considering the type of wood and framing quality, I am confident
    the rest of the attic will be fine.  Thanks for your concern and
    ideas.  These notes are the greatest means for solving problems
    I've seen yet.  They're quickly becoming a way of life.
    
    Jerry

I'm a bit confused when you talk about 'going around' the platform.  The new 
joists will have to run from wall to wall across the entire span, so there 
should be no way to 'go around' it.  You could potentially do only one end of 
the room, creating a platform effect at that end.  I suppose you could put the
platform in the middle of the room, with lower floor on either side, although
that doesn't sound like what you want.  But wherever you put it, there should 
never be any way to 'go around' it - it must extend from wall to wall, unless 
there is an additional load-bearing wall under the attic floor on the floor 
below.

Paul

I remember when I was in school my wife and I rented a cottage and we put our
king size water bed in there.  It turned out that the landlord had added on
the bedroom and his cheapness became very evident the day we moved out since
there was a MAJOR sag in the floor where the bed used to be.

-mark

    re .20
    
    Paul
    
    You are right. I didn't explain very well.  There is a load bearing
    wall in the middle of the attic.  At one end the fake floor (new
    joists) will be supported on the outside wall and at the other end 
    on the load bearing wall in the middle of the house (and attic).
    There are currently 10 existing 2 X 8 floor joists running the 13
    feet.  I will be placing 2 X 10's between six of the existing joists.
    These six joists also happen to be the middle of the ten.  Thus
    leaving several old joist on either side of the raised platform.
    Also, the platform will extend behind the knee wall to reach the
    outside (load bearing) wall.  The end result will look like a custom
    three and a half inch platform designed for the master (water) bed.
    
    Jerry

    
    	I reviewed the notes files and haven't found what I'm looking
    for so here goes;
    
    When do you know when you have to sand an oak hardwood floor with a belt
    sander?
    A wall to wall carpet used to be over the hardwood floor and left
    alot of nail holes and scrapes around the edge.  Also the center
    and main thorough fare spots on the floor were scuffed pretty good.
    I was wondering if I can get by with just hand sanding to scuff
    up the old finish and then varnish.  Will this shortcut show through?
    
    Secondly, the room being worked on is a bedroom and I'm redoing
    it completely, painting ceiling, pastering and painting walls, painting
    trims, and sanding and finishing the hardwood floor.  
    Is there a correct  sequence to do things?
                                                          
    This is where I am so far. 
    1. STripped off wallpaper
    2. Painted ceiling
    3. plastered and sanded the walls with joint compound (will be painting
       the walls)
    4. Cleaned up all the plaster dust and went over all the walls with
       a damp towel.
    
    I'm not sure which step to do next?
    
    	a) 1.  Prime and paint walls 
           2.  Paint windows and trim
           3.  sand and varnish floor 
               I'll have a lot of wood dust that I'll have to dry wipe
               off of the walls, windows and trim.
           
           i.e.  work top to down completely
    
    or
    
    	b) 1.  sand and varnish the floors first 
    	   2.  then finish painting the walls and trim.
    
           i.e.  Do the messy dusty jobs first and then work top down
    
    Thanks,
    Paul
    

    Generally speaking this job goes top to bottom or ceiling to
    floor, whichever way you want to refer to it..  This helps
    the reduce the risk of spilling paint on a freshly finished
    floor.

    I would guess you will want to sand the floor at least
    lightly to clean and smooth up any uneven boards.  The
    toughest part is the edges.  The disk type edger is a real
    back breaker.  You have to bend.  The machine has to be kept
    moving or you end up with all sorts of nasty swirl marks and
    gouges.  The big drum machine for the rest of the floor is
    not as mean as it looks.  It also must be moving whenever the
    paper is in contact with the floor or you end up with
    problems similar to the edger.  Dust is not a real huge
    problem if the machines' dust collectors are working well.

    Both of these rigs need lots of power.  Be sure you have a
    circuit that handle the load.  If you are on second floor
    this may mean a temporary line up the outside or one huge
    cord up the stairs.

    It is not half as bad as it sounds.  Oh yes, you may want
    some ear protection.  These machines are not quiet.

    Pete Duke

    Pete,
    
    	Thanks for the advice.  I use common sense and go as you suggested
    
    top to bottom.  I'm a bit leary about sanding the floor with these
    big machines, but I'm sure I'll get over it.
    
    Thanks,
    Paul

RE: < Note 847.4 by VIDEO::FINGERHUT >

I know its been awhile since this topic has been worked on, but I'd
like to revisit the question of staining hardwood floors prior to
the polyurethane.  In my case, I want to give a moderately dark
stain to old oak flooring because 1) the original carpentry was
slightly tacky and a dark stain will deemphasize the flaws (gaps
between some boards, etc., and 2) the current finish is dark and
I don't want to worry about dark spots that I missed in the sanding
phase.
 
>    The only problem you'll have is with stain.  Are you staining it?
>     If you stain a board to a point, then sometime later on stain the
>    rest of the board, there will be a line where it overlaps (some
>    amount of the area will be stained twice and will show up as a darker
>    line between the 2 rooms. ) 

Okay, so what's the trick?  Are there stains that are easier to use
on large areas so that you don't have to worry about overlapping problems
causing uneveness in the depth of the stain? 

What are good good stains for hardwoods anyway?  I read someplace that
oil stains are not good for hardwood.  

Also I have no desire to fill the grain first.  Are there staining 
methods where this makes a difference?

One last question - are there wood fillers (for nail, carpet tack
holes) that take a stain without appearing much lighter or darker than
the surrounding wood?  I've recently seen a floor refinish job where
the holes from the old carpet tacks look like a thousand points of light.

Thanx in advance to anyone who can help.

Brian

    
     The first thing you have to do to stain a floor is sand ALL of
    the old finish (if any) off. Stain will not take to wood with any
    finish on it. I WOULD recommend an oil based stain, my father and
    I have always used oil based stains and I would NOT recommend any
    other type. You can apply the stain with a brush or rag or a
    combination of the two. Work from one side of the room to the other
    doing a few boards at a time. IMPORTANT, do a few boards at a time
    ALL the way to the other end of the room. Apply the stain with the
    brush or rag and blend the color with the rag. To avoid lap-marks
    on the next set of boards, stop right on the joint between boards.
    In other words, if you're staining a row 6 boards wide, don't get
    ANY stain on the seventh board. Then when you start boards 7-12
    don't get any stain on board 6. You will probably find it's easier
    to apply the stain with a brush and then blend it with a rag. By
    using a rag to blend the stain, you can really get an even coloring
    in the wood. WARNING - rags soaked in oil based stain WILL burst
    into flames if left in a pile under the right conditions. When you're
    through using your stain rag(s), spread them out on a piece of metal
    or concrete to dry.
    
    					Kenny

    re. filling holes
    
    Fillers never take stain the same way wood does, so it's not
    recommended to fill holes before staining.  The waxy filler pencils
    can be used after the finishing is complete.  I used them on some
    prefinished flooring that I had to face nail, and the holes are
    undetectable from standing height.  Use a filler pencil that is slightly
    darker than the surrounding floor to avoid the thousand points of
    light.                       
    
    Bob

    We've decided to redo the kitchen floor. Before I get estimates, i
    underatand that it is cheaper if <i do part of the work myself such as
    stripping it off. Also should I replace the plywoodD? Can any one
    reccommend someone in So. N.H.? 

	Not knowing the age or composition of the existing floor....
	Many installers will NOT touch older floors because many contain
	asbestos, (removal is in another note).  Generally it easier
	and saver to cover it 1/4" sheet stock, (luan) using mastic and
	screws to keep it from squeaking in the future, (also another note).

    
    	I have added a two car garage off my existing 21' x 22' garage
    and am planning on turning the existing garage into a family room.
    The problem that I have is that I have a floor that slopes 6" over
    the 21 feet. There is a two inch concrete wall in the back that works
    it's way to an 8 inch wall in the front. The existing floor is
    4 inches of concrete.
    	Please give me any advice on how I can build a floor for the
    family room. I am also looking at the possibility of heating the
    floor with forced hot water. The flooring will be carpet. Any advice
    on the construction of this floor would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Craig Barlow
    Node WEDOIT::BARLOW
    DTN 261-2575

    You might put a series of floor trusses down, adjusting for the
    height.  Then you would be putting plywood over that.  I don't know
    if this would make the floor too high, but it is a thought.
    
    One other thing.  This is unrelated to the floor, but you mentioned
    heating.  When I was a kid, my parents converted the garage into
    a family room.  The heat was baseboard hot water with the copper
    pipe that has fins.  The room was always colder than the rest of
    the house.  If possible, I would try to beaf up either the insulation
    of the room or the heating of the room, or both.  There is nothing
    worse than being cold inside the house.  And I would think it would
    tend to drive up your heating bills, as well.
    
    Ed..
    

    RE: -.1
    
    I think reply .1 has a really good suggestion here. Along the same
    lines you might consider using pressure treated 2x4 nailed and cemented
    into the floor and shimmed to proper level.
    
    The advantage of this approach is that you can insulate the floor
    using styrofoam insulating board and stretch a plastic vapor barrier
    across the top of the 2x4's before laying your 3/4" plywood.
    You are best to use 3/4" T&G (tongue and groove) plywood as your
    subfloor as this will give you optimal strength.  
    
    I built a basement rec-room using this method, the only diosadvantage
    was that I didn't use glue and eventually the 2x4's evidently bowed
    pulling on the masonry nails, now I have a slight creek in the floor
    at several points. 

	This seems like a good place to throw in some questions on
	subfloors. We are replacing the floors in our kitchen and
	dining room with ceramic tile and parquet tiles (BRUCE),
	respectively. There is no real entrance way between the two
	rooms, merely an island dividing them.

	Ripping up the old linoleum revealed 3/4" particle board
	(yuck); beneath that is 1/2" T&G, pine i guess. The proper
	way to go probably would have been to rip out the particle
	board and start from there, but we went with a 5/8"
	underlayment subfloor--overkill, perhaps, but effective.

	Anyway, we plan on screwing the underlayment down; however,
	its rather difficult to fit a drywall gun under radiators
	(they are recessed) and cabinet edges. I have toyed with a
	few ideas--screwing from the basement up is one. If this,
	then does one use screws that will JUST enter the wood but
	not go thru??? Since the wood is a bit warped, is there the
	possibility that the wood may pop up in this case??  
    
        How about using longer screws, going all the way thru, and 
        hacksawing off the end (this has the potential for alot of work...
        don't know if this will help keep the wood from popping up, anyway)??

	Another idea was using something called Liquid Nails, (know
	anything about it?) either by itself or along with the above.

	I also have been told that offset screwguns exist, but i
	think that's a bit out of the $$$ range to buy or rent.

	That should be enuf for now. Any ideas, suggestions??

	Thanks!!

	--steve
                                

    Try using construction addhesive where you can't nail, of course
    you will be dependent on how well the partical board is fixed to
    the pine in those areas, but there is no doubt that his stuff will
    glue the plywood to the partical board very well.
         
    Good luck.
         
    Peter

    I'm putting up a screened-in porch. Eventually, I will add casement
    windows and close it in.  I tore down a house a while ago and kept
    the 2x6 rafters from it. These rafters will become the flooring
    on the screened-in porch. They are roughly 30 - 40 yr old western
    fir. A really pretty, almost cedar color, and almost as hard as
    clear fir.  I intend to nail them down and run a floor sander over
    them.  I'd like to finish them naturally as I really like the warm
    red/orange color.   I need some advice.
    
    The finish has to be an exterior finish,... it will get wet! 
    
    It seems like the choices are marine varnish and exterior polyurethane.
    Can I paint over the polyurethane ? 
    
    Is there a better alternative?  
    
    Does anyone have any experience with exterior floor/deck clear
    finishes.   This finish will have to take traffic and moisture and sun.
    
    Life time of the floor will probably be 4-5 years, before I put windows
    in and cover it over with an interior floor.

This note re-opened and re-titled by request of the author.

Have at it, folks.

Paul

    If you really like the cedar-like color of the wood, you may want to
    think twice about running a floor sander over the boards -- you may end
    up with new-looking white wood.  If you really need to sand because the
    boards are uneven or unplaned, you might need to stain to achieve the
    original color. 
    
    I can't offer any advice on exterior finishes, but would suggest that
    you space the boards slightly to allow water drainage, and possibly put
    screening on top of the joists and under the fir "decking." This will
    ensure your screened porch is completely screened, and as bug free as
    possible. 
    

    re .2
    
    This is west coast fir. The color goes all the way through, and
    it is a red/orange. I'm sanding it because these boards spent 3
    or 4 decades of service in someones attic, and 2 years in my back
    yard. They're full of dirt and splinters and a few hammer marks
    and nail holes. Since this is a porch, rather than a deck, I'd like
    the boards to be smoothly finished.   A smooth surface should seal
    better to moisture as well.
    
    re the screen on top of the joists. I keep vascillating as to whether
    to put it on top of the joists or underneath the joists. My last
    position was that I should put the screen on the bottom rather than
    the top of the joists as it will be removeable for retrieving stuff
    and junk that falls through the spaces between the flooring.
    
    I was going to put it on top of the joists, but when I started to
    look for a finish for the floor, I realized that the floor finish
    will flow down between the floor boards and gum up the screen. This
    would be less of a problem with a penetrating floor sealant rather than
    a hard surface finish. My neighbor has the screen under the joists,
    but very well stapled in place, and has built up a lovely ;^)
    collection of junk that dropped through the floor boards hanging
    in the screen. That seems to be the worst of all choices.   Is there
    a discussion of whether the insect screen belongs on the top or the 
    bottom of the joists somewhere in these notes?
    
    re floor finishes. I've been digging at this a bit. The truth that
    seems to be emerging is that if you want to expose wood to the weather,
    you should make certain that the wood is alive and can take care
    of itself.  If the wood is dead, you have to maintain it!
    
    It looks like any flooring exterior floor finish that is hard and
    smooth like a varnish, is also slippery when wet. You get around the
    slipperyness by adding grit before the finish dries.  Besides it wears
    through where there is traffic, and has to be redone periodically.
    
    Exterior preservatives that penetrate and seal without a surface
    finish, do not contribute hardness to the surface and simply wear
    and weather away and so require periodic retreatment. 
                                   
    Even pressure treated wood needs to be sealed or the surface gets
    real rough, and the problem worsens because the surface traps water.
    It wont rot cuz of the preservative, but when water freezes on the
    surface, it slowly pulls the board apart along the grain.  I have some 9-10
    year old PT picnic table benches that were never stained as flagrant
    examples of this.
             
    Anyone have any experiences with Thompson's water seal?

    [I have read through all the appropriate notes that I could find in
    this conference, but this problem does not appear to be discussed.]

    Will a floor that has sagged due to excessive weight remain in that
    state or slowly return (at least partially) to its former shape?


    We have purchased and will be finishing an unfinished post-and-beam
    house (the exterior shell is complete, but little interior work has
    been done). The timbers were "green" when installed in late 1985.

    The floor in one of the rooms (to be the dining room) on the first
    floor has had a few thousand bricks, flue tiles, etc (intended for
    construction of an interior fireplace and chimney) stored on the floor
    for the last few years. We have moved the bricks, but the floor has a
    concave shape, sagged towards the center with a maximum depression of
    about 2" due to the weight of the bricks while the timber dried.

    The floor joists are 4"x8" (full-size rough-sawn) timbers 2ft on center
    with a 14ft span. There is a garage underneath with a finished
    fire-code sheetrock ceiling. Therefore, we do not want any permanent
    support posts underneath the floor.

    We will be having Gypcrete (with embedded radiant-heat tubing) poured
    on top of the subfloor, therefore the finished floor will be level.

    The question is whether the current shape of the timbers is permanent
    or whether the timbers will slowly return to a more level shape now
    that the excessive weight has been removed (which could cause problems
    for the Gypcrete floor) or should any action be taken to force the
    timbers to a straighter shape?

    Sounds like you have a permanent sag; any self correction of the
    support beams would have taken place in the first few days with
    a tapering off over a few weeks.
    
    It will continue to sag naturally with age, but that is to be expected.
    Depending on the weight you will add to this floor with your heating
    system, you could expedite the sagging. It's too bad you don't have
    access to the beams to check on their quality/condition.

    < Note 3355.1 by POLAR::MACDONALD >
    
    > It will continue to sag naturally with age, but that is to be expected.

    Yes, but that could be corrected with hydralic/mechanical house jacks.

    > It's too bad you don't have
    > access to the beams to check on their quality/condition.

    For cryin' out oud, *make* access!! These are the floor joists, where
    talkin' 'bout, here!! We're not talkin' 'bout some minor deflection,
    thisiz a major depression and *could* have structural integrity
    implications! Check it out befowa yo sorry! Call a structural eng'neer
    or one a them consarned b'ildin' 'spectors if ya not shoowa of what
    ya doin', OK?

    Very sincerely,

    Brian

     I second the motion, have a structural engineer give you an opinion.
    A small cost outlay now, could save you a lot, later.
     As the beams dried out and checked (natural cracking) the integrity
    of the beams could have been compromised. I would think that wood
    that dries out under stress, would have strange load failing
    characteristics let alone a bent shape.

    
    I've recently purchased a 140 year old farmhouse.  The downstairs
    flooring is hardwood, while the upstairs is 100% wide pine.  
    The upstairs flooring is in serious disrepair: cracked boards, painted
    (uggh) green, and squeking.  I understand the advantages of a hardwood
    floor: durability and resale value.  I have a number of questions
    about how to attack my flooring problem... 
    
    1)  Would replacing the wide pine with hardwood impact the historical
        accuracy of the house?  Was it customary for only wide pine to be
        used in the upstairs of farm houses (most likely as a cost cutting
    	measure, I'd assume)?
    
    2)  Does the serious squeking indicate that a new sub-floor will
        be required. 
    
    3)  Does anyone have any up to-date pricing for wide pine, wide
        hardwood, and standard hardwood flooring per square foot?
    
    Thanks for any help you can give me.
    
    /Jeff

    You better get a structural engineer to look at it. If 
    I read your note correctly, it read that you are going to 
    pour concrete for a floor heating system on the same floor
    that you are already experiencing problems with.
    
    Well, I have a post & beam house with the 4" X 8" pine floor
    joists. Ha, what a joke 4 X 8 floor joist are. Where the 
    floor is flat try jumping up and down on the floor and have
    someone else stand over to the side and watch the deflection.
    These floors are so soft I am afraid to put tile floors in 
    any of the bathroom's. 
    
    These 4 X 8 joist of mine reach out over a 14' span. I don't care
    what the spec's say about their load capacity, they just aren't
    strong enough. The floors on the first floor have sagged so
    much that pretty soon the bottom of the cellar door is about
    to start digging into the floor. 
    
    I wish Maine Post & Beam was still in business so I could sue
    them like a lot of other people did.
    
    If I was at the stage that you are with this house #1) I would
    either unload it or #2)replace all the floor joist before you 
    really have headaches.
    
    	good luck,
    
    		Steve

re: (.24)

>   1)  Would replacing the wide pine with hardwood impact the historical
>       accuracy of the house?  Was it customary for only wide pine to be
>       used in the upstairs of farm houses (most likely as a cost cutting
>   	measure, I'd assume)?

  There is a gene pool of antique house nuts who would be greatly saddened,
should you remove the existing flooring. I liken it to ripping out the lathe
and plaster to expose those wonderful beams - gag me with a Ginsu!

  Hard pine flooring was standard in many New England houses erected before
ca. 1850. I suspect the reason you have hardwood floors on the first floor is
either due to the previous floor rotting (many a first floor suffered the same
fate), or that a previous owner installed it just to keep up with the times.
Should the latter situation be certain, you might find the original floor under-
neath the new.

>    2)  Does the serious squeking indicate that a new sub-floor will
>        be required. 

  No. If it really bothers you, lift up the finished boards and shim with low
grade shakes.

    3)  Does anyone have any up to-date pricing for wide pine, wide
        hardwood, and standard hardwood flooring per square foot?

  Freshly milled hard pine (the species native in the Northeast, not southern
yellow pine) may be had for as little as 30 cents per board foot. Try to avoid
using any other species of pine; hard pine wears remarkably well.

  Previously, floors were left natural (linseed oil was applied occasionally),
painted (uniformly or with geometric patterns), and/or stenciled. What you do
depends upon how much elbow grease you choose to invest and your preferences.
But, Heaven forbid, please don't rip up the old floor.

  Patrick

>     As the beams dried out and checked (natural cracking) the integrity
>    of the beams could have been compromised.

      Don't  Panic.  Many if not most post and beam homes are build with
      GREEN posts and beams  --  i.e.  the  lumber  is  still  wet,  not
      thoroughly  dried.  The reason for this is that it is very hard to
      dry large timbers without its  warping  and  cracking.   When  the
      timber  dries  after being fastened together into a solid frame it
      tends to be held in place by the structure  itself,  so  generally
      dries straight and true. Of course this assumes good post and beam
      construction technique.

      However  natural  checking  and cracking WILL occur.  This is very
      seldom a structural problem.  Our post  and  beam  home  has  some
      cracks  that  are finger wide at the surface and at least 2" deep.
      We've been assured that they pose no problem.  On the other  hand,
      we  don't  have any sagging beams or joists.  As long as posts are
      plum, and beams and joists are  level  I  would  not  worry  about
      checking.

      Now about sagging.  The fact that a beam or joists has sagged does
      not necessarily mean that the structure  is  unsound.   If  you're
      willing  to live with an uneven floor it may be just fine.  On the
      other hand, if you're NOT willing to live  with  an  uneven  floor
      fixing  it  could get really costly.  I disagree with the previous
      reply that suggested it could be fixed with jacks and added posts.
      If  a  beam or joist has dried in a warped position I do not think
      you will be able to straighten it without its breaking. This means
      you have the expensive choice of adding additional lumber to level
      your floors, or the very expensive choice of replacing  joists  or
      beams.

      As  suggested  in  previous replies, if you're seriously concerned
      about structural integrity (you are!) get a professional appraisal
      of the problem.

    If you are interested in seeing some floors that really sag a lot take
    a walk through the mill in Maynard.  See how our company has chosen to
    deal with the problem.

What species of tree does "hard pine" come from?  I'm not familiar with that
term.

-Mike (who noticed the roughcut pine? boards I used to fix a barn seem to be
rather tough)

    I am also interested in the princing and 'hardness' information 
    pertaining to wide pine floors.   I recently bought a house built in
    1725.  The second floor has wide pine which we will NOT replace, but
    part of the first floor is a new addition which we would like to 
    finish in wide pine.  
    
    Where do you buy wide hard pine?  Any recent prices??
    					Thanks,
    					Patsy
    

    The flooring in my ~100 year old farmhouse sounds similar to yours --
    downstairs is hard pine, upstairs is wide pine (actually a fir, I
    believe).  When I moved in the upstairs was mostly painted grey,
    extremely ugly.  According to the floor people who did my floors (and
    many other old houses in the area), the wide (soft) pine or fir is
    actually a subflooring, and it was quite common back then to leave the
    subflooring as the finished floor.  I had the paint sanded off, and
    then had them oiled and waxed.  They are a beautiful soft gold color
    and the oil/wax finish has worn pretty well in the bedrooms over almost
    9 years.  I would have finished the hallway/landing (which gets
    most of the traffic) with a flat poly or other more durable finish, it
    is pretty scratched now.  
    
    I have a few squeaks here and there, I just try to step over them if I
    am trying to walk quietly.
    
    I wouldn't replace the floors for anything!
    
    diane

    Re: Availability of wide pine flooring
    
    Probably the only episode of "This Old House" that I ever watched
    (prompted by this file - I didn't think it could be that bad, but it is)
    involved restoring a 1700s farmhouse in Dedham.  The restorers were
    complaining that the widest finished pine available was 24 inches,
    whereas the old house had some boards that were 36 inches wide!  Also,
    the 24 inch stuff was difficult to find and expensive.
    
    pbm
    

    For wide pine, try Bingham Lumber in Brookline, NH.
    
    For (semi)wide hard pine, try Lancaster-Sterling Lumber in Sterling,
    MA.  It's T&G, though.  
    
    

     My parents built a Post and Beam home many (12) years ago. They
    did the upstairs floor in Pine and the downstairs in Hardwood.
    Both floors have worn very well, and look beautiful today.
     Keep the pine floor, just refinish it, you'll like it.

  re: (.26)

  I do not recall the taxonomic name of hard pine. If you really must know,
I will look it up tonight. I can tell you what it looks like, however. As
it matures, its bark assumes a reddish color and becomes scaly, almost
resembling cherry. It grows rather straight, with fewer branches than white
pine. The wood's color is more yellow than white pine, but less so than
southern yellow pine. The growth rings are brown.

  re: (.27)

  I buy mine from a sawmill, whose name I shall not divulge. Sorry, I need
all I can get. Ask around, most good sawmills should be able to get it. It
should be priced lower than white pine, since there is little demand for it.
Let's keep its quality secret, OK? :^)

  Patrick

What are we talking about here?  Is "hard pine" what I know as "yellow pine"?

My impression is that yellow pine is up to 8" wide (yes, T&G).
I've also seen white pine (read, soft) up to 18" wide, and other noters have
mentioned 24".  The stuff I've seen - freshly cut, not planed - is gorgeous.
But soft.

    
    re: .32
    
    Sounds like you're talking about hemlock.... harder than white pine,
    yet cheaper at the mill.
    
    
    

  re: (.34)

  No, it's not hemlock. It is in fact Pinus resinosa, or commonly called
Red Pine or Norway Pine.

  Patrick

    I have looked through note 1111.* and did not find this topic 
    covered. 
    
    My wife and I are looking at whirlpool tubs and spas for our second
    floor bathroom. The specs from Jacuzzi list floor load/sq". How
    do I determine how much load the floor joists will take ?
    
    
    Thanks
    Chris

    The reason pine endures as well as it does on the second floor of
    these old houses is because most of the traffic upstairs is barefoot.
    
    							;-)
    

I could only find a few scattered remarks about square cut nailing so here 
goes.  I am going to put down wide pine (soft) flooring in my breezeway.
The subfloor is 3/4 glued playwood.  I want to use square cut nails, face 
nailed.  Anyone have any recomendations ??? shpould I use 2 - 2 1/2 inch
nails to get a good hold in the joists?

gary

    I recently installed Bruce Hardwood Flooring in my home. The type is
    called Sterling Strip (C-720). It is red oak and looks beautiful. It is
    also 3/4" oak flooring (not a veneer), and has several coats of poly
    already on it. 
    
    My question is what is the best way to maintain this floor, and when
    time comes for it to be refinsished do I treat it like a regular
    harwood floor or is there some other trick?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dean

re .6:

	Why not call Bruce at (800) 527-5903?

I have another question on sanding floors.  All the finish wood work I have
done in the past has been for furniture quality finish.  Well, I am 
looking into getting some new floors sanded and finished.  It is still open
to negotiation whether we will DIY or contract it out.
 
I have 2 questions;

1) How smooth is "smooth enough" for wood floors?  I am working under the
assumption that "smooth enough" is where you slide your hand across the wood
and can feel no imperfections, no "slightly" higher areas, all seams are
perfectly level, etc.  I just looked at a professionals sanding job, and this
was not the case.  I could feel each and every seam between the wood.
Are my expectations high, or is this contractor just not that good?

2) For those of you who DIY your own floors, how long did it take you on what
kind of floors?  We have 330 SQFT and I'm wondering if we would be talking
on the order of 4-5 hours or 10-12 hours to do this sanding (the floors are 
newly installed 2.25 oak plank).

thanks for any tips.

sherry

     I'm in the process of having my kitchen floor refinished in 
Arlington, MA.  ATR Floor Sanding quoted $2/sf to sand and coat and screen 
four coats of polyurethane.  Staining to match the adjacent floors would 
have been $1/sf more, but wasn't necessary, due to the color of the poly.
The second two coats will go on after the cabinets are in.

    It took two professionals about 5 hours to sand 430 square feet of
    4" maple flooring (which I installed).  They used 230 VAC sanders.
    These guys sand for a living. Some of us push keyboards for a living.
    
    Regarding the finish, it does NOT come out as smooth as say kitchen
    cabinets - close but you can see and feel some rough spots.
    
     

    It a friend and me about 6-8 hours to sand a 144sq ft floor. But
    we did an excellent job. And when we were done, it was smoother than
    cabinets. Smooth as a baby's butt! :^)
    
    We started with the roughest paper we could buy. 20? 40? someplace there.
    Did two complete passes. Then moved to 60, two more passes, 80, two
    more passes. I'm not sure if we got to 100 or not. Anyway, the hardest
    part is edging all this. AND scraping the high spots in corners. 
    
    You'll find your legs hurt then next day from getting up & down a lot.
    Get some kind of knee pads. Make sure that the equipment works at the
    rental shop if possible. We got home to find the edger was broken.
    Be aware that the handle for the sander goes up & down. Adjust it to
    your height if possible. (there's not too much play, but some.)
    
    Also be aware that the 'light guard' and light come off the edger. This
    may allow you to get closer to the walls. (this is a hack and requires
    partial disassembly to get the aluminum cover off. Two screws.)
    
    Huson Rental in Hudson NH rents by the 1/2 day. 

This is a moved from yesterday question as requested by the moderator;
(to the moderator, you may want to add this note to the 'carpet' xref.)
    
We're in the final stages of completing a second story addition on 
our house.  Specifically, we're in the process of investigating carpeting.
I've read through the various carpet notes but I'm more interested in
the underlayment.

My question is this;

We've got 3/4 plywood as the existing sub-floor.  Is that sufficient to
carpet over?  (there is insulation between 1st and 2nd floors).  What 
about the 'carpet board' stuff that's on the market?  Any experiences,
is it worth it, etc?

Thanks for your input,
Carol

    I put carpet over our 3/4" plywood subfloor (along with a good carpet
    pad) and it's been fine.  Before you carpet, however, walk ALL over
    your subfloor to locate any squeaks.  Do this carefully and
    methodically.  Squeaks do not fix themselves.  Drywall screws into the
    joists will get rid of them.
    
    Bob (who missed a few and gets reminded of it several times a day)
    

I too have installed carpet over 3/4 plywood and that has been 8 years ago and
no problems. I agree with with Bob to screw the sub-floor down with drywall
screws but not only where you have squeeks. Screw everywhere you can find the
floor joists. I used 3 lbs on my kitchen floor before installing new tile. 
Best advice is screw,screw, screw!!!

  Phil

    You've confirmed that carpeting over plywood works ok.  (We did
    use the structural adhesive also when the plywood went down.)
    
    But, my other question is still open;  anyone ever use the 'carpet
    board' stuff?  Do you think it's worth it?
    
    Thanks.

    >           -< any recomendations on cut nailing wide pine? >-
    
    I used square cut nails on wide pine.  They don't hold well.  Most
    of them held, but after 5 years, boards start to bounce a little as
    they dry and curl.  
    But they look good.  I'd use the longest nails I could find.
    
    Recommendations:   Since they're rather thick and don't have a point
    on them, they tend to split the wood when you nail down the ends of the
    board.   When you're nailing the end of a board, nail down the next
    board on both sides of it first.  This will hold together the one
    in the middle so it won't split.  Also, the square nails are slightly
    rectangular.  Make sure the long side is lined up with the grain of the
    wood.

    ANOTHER QUESTION ABOUT UNDERLAYMENT FOR CARPETS.. If I leave 1/8
    spacing betweem plywood sheets for expansion, will that seam show
    through the carpet ?? Or, if I use filler in the joints what happens
    when the joints expand ??

    I never thought that plywood would contract or expand because it
    glued.. I mean...warping I can understand but not expanding IMO..
    
    Naive'..I've nevr heard of it..
    
    
    								j

    one more thing ...isn't plywood made from either 1/32 or 1/16 layers 
    that are laid criss-cross with layers of glue...How can that
    expand/shrink??
    
    							john

    RE: .-a few...
    
    There is the possibility of a little movement in the plywood although
    not enough to worry about.  If you are concerned about wear on the
    padding or carpeting, there are fillers available which contain a latex
    additive.  These are usually used for leveling floors prior to laying
    down vinyl goods but can be used under carpeting as well.  The cost is
    about $20.00 per pail.  This will cover about 100 square feet.  If you
    need some send me mail and I can get smaller amounts.
    
    Dan

      When  we  build  our house My wife and I did ~725 sq ft in under 8
      hours.  We rented a drum sander and an edger.  I got them back  to
      the rental shop before closing, which is how I'm sure it was under
      8 hours.  The floor is 2x6 structural pine decking, which  is  the
      exposed  floor  our our house.  Towards the end of the second pass
      (with the finer paper) I was really rushing and  left  some  marks
      that you can still see. This was a long, hard day's work. If I had
      it to do again I'd take two days--and not just 'cause I'm older.
      
      Based on this, I'd recommend allowing something around 2 hours per
      100 sq ft.  This does NOT include time for pick up and drop off of
      any equipment you rent.  If in doubt, plan for extra time.  You'll
      do a better job and be happier with it.

  If you're the kind of person who'll see and hate the imperfections in
  a DIY job, then get a professional to do it.

  I recently refinished about 320 sq ft of oak flooring, and it took
  almost about 13 hours of sanding with the drum sander and edger. It
  took this long, because it was my first time, and I wanted to get it
  as close to perfect as possible. I went very slowly at first until I
  got the hang of the machines, to where I could do it with no gouges or
  marks. The result is about as good as a pro would have done, according
  to our builder, who was surprised it came out as good as it did (as
  was I).

  It's not an easy job, to put it mildly, and I'm not one to shy away
  from DIY work. I have no doubt that if you try to rush it, you'll have
  lots of imperfections. If you won't be able to live with them (my wife
  would have paid to redo the floors if it had come out much less than
  perfect), then plan on taking your time or paying someone else. 

  It's a job that's hard to get right. But if you're not overly
  concerned about getting it right, it's not that hard, and very
  satisfying.

    Sanding and refinishing hardwood floors, in my humble opinion, requires
  just too much grunt work compared to the cost of hiring a professional.  And
  3/4 of the time, DIY work won't come out as good, especially since the
  sanders you rent aren't of the same quality as those used by the pros.

    I enjoy a DIY challenge, but there are a few things, like this and roofing,
  that I prefer to leave to pros. Plumbing and electrical, on the other hand,
  now those things are fun!!

    Steve   

    
    	I just moved into our new home. And when the kids jump or run
    around the floor vibrates quite a bit. Well the floor joist are 2X10 @
    16 o.c. My question is: If I go ahead and cross bridge these joist
    should I remove the contence of the room or should I go ahead and do it
    as is?  And how far apart should the Cross Bridges be?  The builder
    used PL400 adhesive on the joist. Should I place some PL400 on the top
    of the cross bridge befor nailing it in place?
    
    Ben
    

I looked for a note on this topic but couldn't find one.  

My 55 gallon fish tank had a leak.  I think it leaked for about 2-3 weeks 
before we finally noticed it.  The leak was slow enough that I didn't lose more than
a tea-kettle's worth of water a day, which I ascribed to increased evaporation
due to the decrease in outside temperature and the increase in the amount of
time the heat was on.

The hard-wood floorboards under and in front of the tank are now warped (this
is what clued us in to the problem).  The floor is sealed with polyurethane.
Judging from the stain behind the tank, I would guess that the water dripped
down the wall and seeped under the edge of the floor.

I have a couple questions:
	(1) Is a couple weeks long enough for rot to set in?
	(2) Will the floor dry out?  How long will it take?
	(3) Will the floor return to normal after it dries out?
	(4) Is this the sort of thing that we should have a professional
	look at?

The only stain in the floor is a very small spot against the wall under the 
leaking hose.  I am hoping that this is the only long-term consequence of the
leak, and that we can put the tank back together (with new hoses) and forget
about it.

Thanks,
Margaret.

    
    (1)  No.  Damage yes, rot no.
    (2)  About a week, in a typical warm, low-humidity winter interior
         space.
    (3)  Unfortunately, no.  You'll have to wait for the drying-out
         process to complete itself and assess the damage, which may
         require replacing an area of hardwood flooring.
    
    pbm
    

    What is a good flooring material for a mudroom?   We are fixing 
    ours up and would like it to have a "warm" feel.  But we'd also
    like it to stand up to all of the snow, mud, wet clothes etc. 
    
    Would appreciate suggestions on type of material and brand.
     

    It would seem that waterproof/repellent material would be the most easy
    to maintain but the least likely to give a "warm" feel.  Linoleum,
    vinyl, tile, flagstone, brick, concrete and slate would be easy to mop
    up the water/mud from but could be considered cool to touch.

    Outdoor carpeting would give a "warmer" feeling to the room and still
    stand up to the mud/water that gets tracked in.
    
    How about a liner covered with pea gravel?  The pea gravel would be an
    interesting material which would allow water to travel to the liner and
    then to a drain.

    Since this appears to be the "pine" flooring note, as opposed to the
    "hardwood" flooring note, I'll post here.
    I like the look of pine, over oak, and would like to use it in certain
    areas of the house. A few questions tho.
    Do the "harder" pines (or close relatives) have the same attractive
    grain as the "softer" pines?
    I've seen a pine flooring used on TOH, which I believe was treated
    (compressed?) somehow to make it much harder. Hard enuf for use in
    a kitchen in fact. Has anyone heard of this, and the price?
    How would a pine floor stand up in an active house (dog, kids, etc)?
    
    Thx,
    John

(I was going to reply to your note on finishes, but, since I saw this one ...)

We have something called Southern Yellow Pine.  We think it has a very nice
grain.  It is distinctly yellower than your normal white pine.  It's supposed
to be harder/denser than white pine, hence, more dent resistant.

Three coats of Zip-Guard urethane don't protect it from everything - dragging
chair legs and scrambling 80-pound-golden-retriever-toenails still scratch it.
But, hey!  We like wood.

Anybody know how the parquet at the Boston Garden holds up?  (I don't think
it's pine.)

(Oh, the dog is 80 pounds, not his toenails.)

> Anybody know how the parquet at the Boston Garden holds up?  (I don't think
> it's pine.)

Very badly.  I saw on a TV show segment once that they spend a tremendous
amount of money repairing the stuff, and even so it has uneven spots and
even dead spots where the ball doesn't bounce as high.  Supposedly they
keep it out of a feeling that it is an advantage to the Celtics -- they
know where the dead spots are (theoretically, I don't believe it) --
and because it is a tradition/superstition -- if they changed the floor 
and the team started losing, the person who decided to change the floor
would be out on his ear pursued by hordes of maniacal Bostonians.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

        One of the oak floor boards in my house has a narrow piece of
        grain along one edge that is lifting up and separating from
        the rest of the board.  The piece is little more than a fat,
        but long (2 foot), splinter.  In fact, before it lifted up
        very much, it did cause occasional injury to bare feet that
        hit it at just the right angle.

        The last time I waxed and polished the floor, most of the
        piece just came up (I saved it, in case I can figure out how
        to put it back so that it will stay).

        Does anybody have an idea for how to either reattach this
        piece or to fill the 1/8" to 1/4" gap it has left at the edge
        of a board?  Unfortunately, it is in a very visible walk-way.

        Bob

    Can you glue it with a little wood glue?  You could cover it with wax
    paper and put a weight on it to hold it in place until the glue sets.
    
    After about 1/2 hour, remove the wax paper and carefully scrape away
    any glue that was squeezed out of the joint.  The longer you wait the
    more difficult it will be to remove the excess glue.
    
    Bob

	Recently, I cleaned our oven which was quite dirty and full of black
	cooking spot. I used "Easy Off" and it worked very well. One day after
	this oven cleaning, I found some black spots near the oven which turned
	out to be the drippings/spillings of the earlier clean up.

	I sprayed the "Easy Off" on these spots and forgot to clean it until
	the next day. By the time I discovered it, the spots were dry and 
	spreaded out into 3 times their original sizes! I used "Easy Off" again
	but I could not remove the spots completely even with a fine brass 
	brush. It looked like they fused into the surface of the vinyl(?) floor.
	Even with repeated cleaning, I still had brown spots.	

	I asked 3 stores for a solution to clean these spots, they don't know
	there is anything that can help. One store, Hammar Hardware in Nashua,
	said that "Easy Off" has acid and the acid ate into the floor material
	and he doubted that I can remove the spots safely. He did suggested the 
	(forgot the name!) which is the same chemical to remove nail polish
	with caution that it may ruin my floor. Well, I tried ... cautiously.
	The stuff melted the floor so I had to stop! The floor is now in a 
	terrible shape full of spots. I hate to spend ~ $400 to replace the 
	floor because I don't have any floor material leftover.

	I appreciate any suggestions. HELP!!!

								Thanks

								N. Nguyen

Easy-Off sells two very different types of oven cleaner.  The traditional
kind (in a yellow can, I think), uses lye (a very strong alkali), and
requires great care in its use.  The other kind, that comes in a blue
can, was formerly known as "Arm and Hammer Oven Cleaner" before Easy-Off
bought the rights to it.  This kind uses heat-activated salts and needs
no special precautions.  I suspect you used the former kind, but it is
important to know which kind you used to be able to make a recommendation.

However, I fear you may well have to replace the flooring.

			steve

    Thanks for your reply. I used the yellow can. Do you have any
    suggestion?
    
    								N. Nguyen

Nope.  I think you have done irrepairable damage to the flooring.

			Steve

The best you can do is clean it off with a weak acid, such as vinegar.

-Mike

    	I tried AJAX with a lot of scrubbing and it worked! The floor
    	is almost in its original condition. I'll remember to protect
    	the floor in the next clean up.
    
    	Thanks for your reply.
    
    								N. Nguyen

    I also have a question regarding the drilling of floor joists, but in this
    case for the routing of wires.  Does anyone know the general rules for
    drilling the joists to wire a house?  I have seen new costruction where
    the floor joists have had a number of holes drilled through them to pass 
    wires.  

    I saw one house where the joasts are fastened to the side of the center
    beam.  In this case, holes were drilled through the center beam to 
    run wires through!  Doesn't this risk the structural integrity of the
    house?

    In most cases, each hole only has one romex cable passing through it.
    Is one cable per hole a code requirement?  Also, how many holes can be
    drilled through a single joist?

    Thanks for any info you can offer.

    Regards,
    Denis

    

    As long as you drill through the approximate centers of the joists
    I don't think you'll have any problem (see .3 also).  The center
    of a joist in fact doesn't do much except keep the top and bottom
    of the joist together.  The top is in compressive load, the bottom 
    is in tension.  The centerline (the "neutral axis") in theory has
    no load on it at all:
    
                        LOAD
                          |
                          |
                          V
    		----> compression <-----
    ---------------------------------------------------
    
    . . . . . . . . neutral axis . . . . . . . . . . . . 
    
    ---------------------------------------------------
    ^              <---- tension ---->                ^
    |                                                 |

    
    I don't think there is a requirement of one wire per hole.  The
    main thing is probably to be sure they aren't pinched or twisted
    as they go through.

    re. last-    Steve is correct for a free standing joist, with the
    flooring above loosely attached.  When the flooring above is rigidly
    attached, such as subflooring glued to the joists, the section becomes
    a "T" section of sorts, rather than a plain rectangle. The effect is to
    shift the neutral axis up towards the flooring.
    	So, drill the holes at least in the middle of the joists, or a bit
    above the middle.

The National Electrical Code doesn't care much about the structural integrity 
of framing members; it specifies drilling through their approximate center to 
minimize the chances of damage from fasteners driven from above or below later.
(Keep that in mind when using extra-long fasteners near existing wiring.)

My understanding is that building codes for framing are sufficiently over-
engineered to permit a "standard" number of holes to be drilled for wiring and 
(especially) plumbing without compromising the structure.  Only if you have an
exceptional number of holes do you need to be concerned.

    On the other hand drilling holes through framing is a pain in the ass,
    so look for other routes.  The most common is in the 3/4" space between
    the strapping and sheetrock (if in fact you will be finishing the
    ceiling).

    re: .-1
    
    Please check with the local inspector.  There are towns where the
    practice of using the gap from strapping is NOT allowed.  In general if
    the hole is less than 1" in diameter and at least 1" from the bottom,
    then code is satisfied.  A 1" hole can accomodate up to 3 wires without
    problems.  Be careful to allow the joist to swell and shrink in the
    heat/cold without rubbing on the wires.  In other words, if it takes a
    lot of tugging to pull the wires, its probably too tight.
    
    Dan (who just completed wiring a whole house... 4500' of wire!!!)
    

    Using the space made by strapping is the common practice when wiring up 
    a new house or addition.  I hope that the inspectors that do not allow
    it keep it to themselves.  It saves a good amount of drilling and as
    long as the wires are place far enough away from the strapping that
    they are not in danger of getting a screw through them when the sheet
    rock goes up there is no problem.  
    
    As for drilling being a pain in the ass, it is only if you are trying
    to drill through studs using a butterfly bit on a small twist drill.
    As with most things, the right tool makes the job so much easier and if
    you are planning to do alot of wiring it may be worth it to rent or
    even buy a right-angle drill and buy the correct bit.  The bit I use
    for drilling through studs and joists is a 1 1/4" dia. 18" long 
    "nail eater".  It does not take long to go through studs with that on
    the end of a right-angle drill.
    
    bjm

    Not rotted, but wet.
    My sister's house suffered from the must-discussed "washing machine
    flood" via a burst hose. As you may remember, the water flowed through
    the night until an inch covered most of the downstairs. When we last
    left our sad homeowners, they were battling with the insurance company
    over what needs to be fixed. Their contractor recommended that the
    subfloor be replaced throughout the downstairs, as it was wet for
    12-24 hours, and doesn't look so hot right now (it's plywood). The
    ins. co. disagrees. What say you? Should it be trashed?
    
    Thanks,
    John

    It depends on whether the plywood is seperating or not.  If it is, yes
    replace.  If not, replace anyhow because when it dries out it will
    probably seperate.
    

I just moved into a place with wonderful oak woodwork through out.  The oak
floors, however, were buried under horrid orange shag carpeting and 5, countem'
5 layers of linoleum!  

Well, the carpet came out with a little sweat. The linoleum came off with some
serious grunt work and a large scraper.  It appears as if the initial  layer of
linoleum was applied with some kind of "tar paper" adhesive.  In some places it
all came off, and I can see wood.  In others places, however, the tar paper
remains.  Muscle does not remove this stuff.  I tried a heat gun, heated
scraper, and a blow torch with success, but each of these tools started the
paper upper layer on fire, which was quite unpleasant and  difficult to deal
with.  I finally ended up using our home iron with reasonable success and no
flames.  What remains is a lot of tar, ~1/8" thick in some places and bare
floor in others.

Can I start using a sander with some extremely course paper in it? Or do I have
to see floor everywhere before going at it with the sander?  If the latter,
any ideas on how I might get this stuff off?  I'm willing to put in the sweat
equity, but if there is an easier way, I'd love to hear it.  

I do plan on getting a professional in to look at it and give me an estimate.
With the estimate will probably come some good recommendations of how to get
this stuff off.  I doubt I'll have someone else do it though. Budget 
necessitates DIY.

    I ripped up a floor that had either the same thing or something
    similar. I sanded it off. Worked real well, but I wish to hell I
    hadn't done it...
    
    Who knows what's in that stuff? Or how much I inhaled thru the mask
    and for days later???
    
    I'd put some thin plywood down on top of it were I to do it again...
    
    Edd

re .-1 Thin Plywood

That defeats the stated purpose.  The floors are a nice wood that wants to be 
saved.  Why is it always so necessary for everyone to so quickly say "put some
plywood down on it"?  I am going to be in the same situation down the road,
and I would like to hear ways for SAVING the wood floor, not covering it up.

Ed..

    
    Go to a rental store (taylor rental) and get a tile remover. This is a
    big machine with a blade in the front that vibrates back and forth very
    fast. It should easily do the job.
    
    Mike

    I agree mith .27.  Get most of the adhesive up.  I made the mistake 
    of attempting to use the sander after removing very little of the
    adhesive. (I got lazy).  The adhesive is like gum, and sticks and
    binds to the sandpaper, so I ended up having to return to the rental
    center a couple times for sandpaper...all adding to the total bill.
    (The paper cost more than the rental of the sander...)
    
    Chalk another one up to experience....
      

	I am sure a tar like substance can be easily removed with steel
	wool and the correct solvent.  It will be messy but it will do
	the best job.  I forgot what stuff they use but I got some free
	solvent from the guys that did the rustproofing on my car and it
	wors great on getting tar marks off a white car.

	Dave

    RE .27
    
    I would not recommend this approach after my experience using it.
    I used it to remove glued roll flooring from a plywood underlayment.
    It removed the linoleum, but it also CHEWED up the plywood.  Since
    we were putting down cermic floor tile, I just filled the chewed
    out areas with thin-set mortar,
    
    However, since you are trying to restore a hardwood floor, I would
    finding a solvent or pay the few $ for the extra sanding discs and
    sand the tar off. 

    Re: .26
    
    Gee, I guess I misread your note. So sorry I wasted your time...
    
    Edd

    
    re .30
    
    I've done this a couple of times. My most recent adventure was when we
    had to remove the rubberback carpet in our house which was glued down.
    Not once did it chew up the flooring (plywood). Of course it could have
    if I didn't use it properly.
    
    Mike

    Your floor sounds like mine.  When I moved in we had the ugliest
    carpet in the kitchen. (Who puts carpet in the kitchen anyway?)
    I thought there couldn't be anything in the world uglier than this
    carpet, so I tore it up.  I then found then ever uglier linoleum
    underneath.  Tore tthis up and found the world's ugliest linoleum
    tile. (Check the Guiness Book of world records, it is in there!!)
    Tearing this up I found a beautiful Oak floor, but there was this
    1/8" 'tar-paper-type-substance'.  Some of is just pealed off, but
    in other placed scraping was even futile.  Sanding gummed up the
    paper too quickly to be worthwhile.  I took  TSP and water and
    soaked the areas that were real bad and used a scraper after it softened
    up the areas.  This was slow but the results were great. 
    
    Kevin 

    If TSP will soften the crud, that might be a good way to go.
    I would be very hesitant to use a flammable solvent like mineral
    spirits (paint thinner) to soak down a whole floor!  It would
    cerainly soften the tar, but the fumes and fire danger would be
    extreme. 

    I had a similar situation to many of the above:  vinyl tile on plywood
    subfloor over linoleum tiles over tar_paper over hardwood floor.
    
    After trying to scrape, etc.  We finally got a professional (here in
    NJ) to do the whole thing - including refinish the hardwood floor areas
    that had not been covered (lr & dr).  He used lots of sandpaper, but
    got it done.  Only 'prblem' was, due to the damage from the many layers
    and the nails, he suggested a darker color finish than we eould have
    liked.
    
    My suggestion - either be prepared for MAJOR work or major $$$$.  Cost
    me about $2500 for about 800 sq ft.  Including Swedish finish and 1/4
    round mouldings stained and finished.
    
    	-Barry-

My floors were done by a pro (reading this note convinved me that there was
no DIY advantage on floors).  We haven't done the kitchen floor with its two
layers of linoleum yet, but the pro said he'd get rid of it all for an extra
dollar a square foot.  His price for Swedish finish ($60 per gallon) was $1.75
a square foot, so that would make it $2.75 a square foot to do the kitchen.

>Your floor sounds like mine.   ...  found ever uglier linoleum underneath. 
>...  but there was this 1/8" 'tar-paper-type-substance'.  Some of is just
>peeled off, but in other placed scraping was even futile.  Sanding gummed
>up the paper too quickly to be worthwhile.  I took  TSP and water and
>soaked the areas that were real bad and used a scraper after it softened up
>the areas.  This was slow but the results were great. 

     You can soak the stuff with plain water - TSP isn't needed.  Let it 
sit about a half an hour and then it'll come right up -- assuming this is 
the kind of stuff .0 is dealing with.

    re: Using a solvent

    I would fear (besides the fire potential mentioned by Steve) that using
    a solvent to dissolve this tar like substance would cause the problem
    of soaking dissolved tar into the pores of the wood more than it is
    now.

    Not quite the same situation, but I was trying to remove a very dark
    brown shellac finish off of some quartered oak panels.  I tried using
    ammonia which worked great (this is how I clean shellac brushes - it's
    much cheaper than alcohol and does a better job).  The old finish just
    ran off and cleaned up nice with no smell.  BUT, after it dried, the
    surface had a grey tinge from the almost black finish being soaked into
    the wood.  On panels that I just sanded the finish off, they came out
    fine.  No matter how much I sanded the other panels, they would not
    clean up as well.

    The soaking it with water/TSP would probably NOT cause this to happen.
    
    Just a thought.

    -Bob
            

Thanks for all the replies.   The entire house is oak flooring.  Actually,
in the kitchen, the floor is so bad (gouges, nails, tar) that putting
tile over it is likely.  The rest of the place, however, is worth saving.
It looks like shelling out a few extra dollars for a few extra sanding
disks is the way we'll go.

Barry

    re: .38
    
    I think the problem you had with the ammonia on the oak was due
    to a chemical reaction between the ammonia and the oak wood, not
    the fact that stain soaked into the wood.  Ammonia will darken
    some woods, and especially oak.
    I read something a while ago that mentioned this; some
    cabinetmakers had to build some additional oak platforms, desks,
    etc. for a courtroom,  I think, and they had to match the aged look
    of the existing oak in the room.  They got some industrial-strength
    ammonia, set it around in pans on the floor, sealed the room up
    completely tight, and left it for a day or two.  When they reopened
    the room, the new oak was "aged" to match the old.

    What .38 describes is a technique called fumed oak that was employed
    extensively in the 1910s in craftsman-style houses.  You can read about
    it in any of the Dover Publications reprints of Gustave Stickley's
    books on craftsman home design.
    
    Sorry for the digression.
    
    	Marlene

       <<< Note 1559.40 by HKFINN::WELLCOME "Steve Wellcome (Maynard)" >>>

    
>    I think the problem you had with the ammonia on the oak was due
>    to a chemical reaction between the ammonia and the oak wood, not

>    cabinetmakers had to build some additional oak platforms, desks,
>    etc. for a courtroom,  I think, and they had to match the aged look
>    of the existing oak in the room.  They got some industrial-strength

    Steve is absolutely correct. Ammonia is a good coloring agent for oak 
due to the reaction between ammonia and the tannin in the oak.

    The story Steve mentions is from Fine Woodworking about a French bank. 
The color was all wrong and had to be darkened. Two days of ammonia being 
boiled in the sealed room brought the bank to the correct shade of brown.
You can imagine what it would be like reopening the room after that 
treatment!

    Vic H

>    The story Steve mentions is from Fine Woodworking about a French bank. 
> The color was all wrong and had to be darkened. Two days of ammonia being 
> boiled in the sealed room brought the bank to the correct shade of brown.

I remember that story.  It was written by George Frank, who is now about 80 and 
one of the current world's experts on wood finishing.  It happened when he was 
an apprentice.  He had just read about the ammonia technique in a book, and 
suggested it when his boss was at his wit's end.  As I remember, his boss gave 
him a huge bonus and told him to take a couple week's vacation.

paul

    re:.40 -.43
    
    Thanks for the information.  That explains the problem.  Now that I
    think about it, it didn't make sense that shellac removed with alcohol
    didn't darken the wood like ammonia did.
    
    Oh well, I'll know better next time.
    
    -Bob

	In 1973, I used paint remover on the tar paper that you're 
	supposed to put between oak and linoleum (to provide jobs for 
	floor refinishers... :-) ).

	I used the stuff Sears sells: the grey sticky stuff that stings
	like hell.  I think it's not flammable, but use plenty 
	ventilation. 

	(I also followed the path from brute-force scraping through
	propane torch to water soaking.  Interesting how we all do
	the same chores.)

	Regards, Robert.