Conference vmszoo::rc

I think Chris Spohr just bought one of these. I'll bug him and see if he can 
put in a report on it.

>     Question is, has anyone had hands on experience with this software
>    package? If so could you give a review of what you think of it.

The last time I was at the AMA headquarters they had one set up and running
on a commodore.  I tried it in airplane and helo mode.  It was OK and the
graphics were pretty crude - but...

(1) that was an older version than the one released now and
(2) I still ain't a very good pilot.

The sticks are indeed like a real RC transmitter - but a really CHEAP one.
Cheaper than cheap.

There are other RC simulators that are getting better reviews but they
also cost much more.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    Re .0
    
    I have tried several flight simulators over the last year.  And it was
    easy to form an opinion.  After trying them all, the "best buy" IMHO is
    AEROCHOPPER from Ambrosia.  I believe in this one so much that I have
    waited for almost a year for them to come out with an IBM compatible
    version.
    
    The good news is that AEROCHOPPER for IBM compatibles is now available
    and shipping as of 11-6-92.  I just attended the Chicago Hobby Expo
    and tried out this new version.  It is better than the last one and I
    would have been happy with it the way it was, but for IBM PC's.
    
    Anyway here's what I think of the three I tried.
    
    
    Dave Brown:  Poor graphics, but the new version is tolerable.  The
    previous version was junk.  The transmitter box resembles an old Kraft
    radio.  Your basic metal enclosure with a pair of joy sticks.  The new
    IBM version (3.1 I think) gives you airplane and helicopter simulation. 
    Mailorder price around $120.
    
    Skylark: Excellent graphics, helicopter only.  Price around $250
    
    Aerochopper:  Excellent graphics, even better than before with 4
    selectable levels of background detail (mountains, etc...) which is
    necessary for orientation purposes.  The transmitter box is a real
    Futaba Conquest transmitter box including a couple buttons for
    Autorotation, idle up, dual rates, etc....  Plugs into serial port.
    You get 4 simulators, powered plane, glider, jet, and helicopter.  It
    comes complete for around $200 through the end of December then it will
    jump to $229.
    
    Nee I say more about the best value?
    
    Chris

    Forgot to mention that I ordered Aerochopper last week and it may be
    here as early as today.  
    
    Bye...

>>    The good news is that AEROCHOPPER for IBM compatibles is now available
>>    and shipping as of 11-6-92.  

    ALRIGHT!!!  I saw AEROCHOPPER at the first WRAM show I went to (four
    years ago???)  I was so impressed that I considered buying an Atari
    ($800.?) just to run this simulator ($200.?) - even though I already
    had an IBM machine!

    One of these just got added to my wish list...  :-)

                                - Dan M.

    1471.3
    
    Chris, after using these programs, in your opinion do they realy help
    you fly the real thing better? What I'm asking is if someone were to
    become good at flying on the computer will the same skills be used to
    fly the real thing at the field on Sundays. Or is all this just a nice
    way of playing RC when its snowing and you can't go to the field to
    fly?

    There was an article in one of the RC mags a few months ago written
    by an instructor. In his opinion, the flight simulator (don't remember
    which one he used) was a BIG help to his student.
    
    Steve

    Me too!  I played with this on the Atari four years ago and it was very
    good.  I'll put it on my xmas list.
    
    Charlie
    

    Were do you go to get Aerochopper? Who sells its?

>    Chris, after using these programs, in your opinion do they realy help
>    you fly the real thing better? What I'm asking is if someone were to
>    become good at flying on the computer will the same skills be used to
>    fly the real thing at the field on Sundays. Or is all this just a nice
>    way of playing RC when its snowing and you can't go to the field to
>    fly?

I can't comment on those programs since I haven't used them but I can say that
flying a simulator does help. I use FLIGHT on my workstation and practice flying
using an outside world view. I've found that flying around Logan airport while
observing from the tower is a pretty good approximation to the sight 
relationships of flying an RC aircraft. I've used the simulator to practice 
fixed wing aerobatics and nose-in flight on helicopters. 

    Much of RC flying is visual.  There is no "feel" of what the plane is
    doing, so it's really how well you can couple to the plane visually.  A
    simulator can help practice maintaining orientation during manuvers. 
    It also allows you to try things that you would not have the nerve to
    try with your model.  I think it can help beginners and experienced
    pilots if the simulation is reasonably accurate.
    
    Charlie
    

    re .6
    
    YES...  They do help immensely!  Like Charlie said in .11, it is
    neccessary for you to couple yourself visually.  Aerochopper and
    Skylark do an excellent job helping you orient due to their realistic
    backgorund scenery.  A friend of mine had use of an Atari based one for
    a couple of weeks and he said it made a quick and significant
    improvement.  I saw him before and after and agree with him.   
    
    Charlie was right again when he said that you can try things out long
    before you might normally because "it does'nt cost you anything".  This
    is especially useful for helicopter pilots.
    
    I just called the hobby shop, my Aerochopper is not in yet.  :-(
    
    Where do you get it?  Try Ambrosia's ad in your favorite RC mag.  When
    I get mine, I'll post their phone and address.
    
    Chris
    

    Also, many of the top RC pilots use them.  For example I spoke with
    Mike Mas at the Chicago expo.  He said they he had been using one for
    about 3-4 years.  I must say, that boy can fly.
    

I thought I heard once that because they are modifying Futaba Conquest
transmitter boxes that you could save a few bucks if you sent them
a conquest Tx.

Does anybody know if this is true?  If so I have two brand new Conquest 
transmitters that I'll never use.  They come free with my $119 flight packs :-)
I am especially interested in the fact that they are using the serial port.
No good notebook computers have a game port.

Wonder how it would be on a black and white LCD screen?

Guess the moderator could change the title of this note.

P.S.  It's official - I'm now a grandfather.
P.S.S.  Welcome back AJ.  Take the album from Jim Reith to Al Casey

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    What kind of modifications?  Could you also use the transmitter to take
    up a real plane afterwards? I need a new Tx anyway (mines an old Cannon
    which was one of the first ones to come out with the 'small' servos
    back in the 70's).  I like the idea of my boys flying a simulator first 
    - but for the price I'd also like to be able to use the transmitter out 
    on the field.  Kills two birds with one stone.
    
    dave

    Dave,
    	The "transmitter" has no guts!  He just uses the joysticks - at
    least that's what he did with the Atari.  He bought just the case and
    the sticks from Futaba and it had a cable comming out where the antenna
    should be.  I would guess he did same for IBM.  If he's using the
    serial port instead of the game port, he would have needed to put some
    sort of converter in the TX box to generate the serial signal.
    
    Charlie
    

    I had the opportunity to try Microsoft'a Flight Simulator on a PC.It
    presented some very realistic RC type situations but not complete. At
    low level flying with full screen view from outside the plane, you
    can't seen the ground until its to later...sometimes. The graphics
    seems fine. Questions is, is this program better, about the same, or
    worst than the the RC simultors on the market. Since I have nothing
    else to compare to, if someone can I would appreciate it.
    

    I'm now the proud owner of Aerochopper.  I played a little with it over
    the weekend and had a blast.  There are over 100 parameters that you
    can adjust to make it fly like your bird.  One of my friends got his at
    the same time and customized it to fly like his Scout Heli.  Very
    realistic feel to it.  He talked me thru some hovering rolls
    successfully.  I'm gonna be dangerous next summer.
    
    
    If you want one, contact:
    
    Ambrosia Microcomputer Products
    98 W. 63rd Street, Suite 371
    Willowbrook, IL 60514
    
    (708) 655-0610
    

>                                                 <<< Note 1471.18 by MAIL::SPOHR >>>
>                                                            -< Finally >-
>
>    I'm now the proud owner of Aerochopper.  I played a little with it over

So tell us about the glider mode?  Thermals?

RE .-2

The Microsoft simulator will do a better job on navigation.
The RC versions more closely simulate real RC environments.
If your purpose is to learn full scale navigation - get the Microsoft flight simulator.
If your purpose is to save money from RC crashes - get an RC version - probably 
from Ambrosia as they seem to be the best today.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    .19 Thanks Kay. That type of information makes it easier to understand
    what these products really do.
    
    Added note: .18....Okay Chris now that you are the proud owner of this
    wonderful product Aerochopper, lets hear what this program can do.
    The suspence is killing me! Santa wants to know if he can fit it into
    his bag or not.

    I think it would be cool as a moose if someone were to:
    
        1) make a servo wiring harness that would take the timing signals
           from the servo sockets on my Futaba receiver and feed them in 
           into a parallel I/O board on my PC
    
        2) write some time critical interface code on the PC (probably 
    	   something like a TSR) to convert the pulse signals into
    	   positional values for each channel
    
       3a) hack a version of Microsoft Flight Simulator to use these
    	   values instead of function keys/joystick input. Be nice if
           supported flaps, retracts, and the other MS FS features.
    
           or 
    
       3b) maybe just hack a version of the joystick driver to use these 
           values instead of a joystick. Would only support 2 channels...
    
    That way, we could all use our favorite transmitters & setups...
    

    Sorry...I've been real busy with a bid that was due early this week and
    have'nt had much time to on Aerochopper yet.
    
    But, I can tell you from the small amount of time I do have on it...
    you can really customize it to simulate your bird.  It ain't the real
    thing, but for simulating RC on a 14" color monitor, I don't know how
    much closer you can get without a CDROM scenery disk.  
    
    I am bringing it in tomorrow for Dan Eaton to test drive and comment. 
    I still have him in awe over the fact that I can do a hovering roll
    with the chopter a few feet off the ground.
    
    Re a few back... Yes it will fit in your stocking!  :-)  Tell Santa.
    
    Chris

    re: -.1
    
    Ok - here's a test.  Please give the stick to someone who has never
    flown RC and let them try to get the chopper off the ground.  IF THEY 
    CRASH then I'll believe its a realistic simulator and maybe I'll get one 
    too (I'd really like to fly a helicopter & I'd really like to have my 
    children learn plus, I'd really like to avoid the mass distruction 
    involved with learning to fly an RC chopter).  BTW - does it simulate 
    cross winds too?
    
    rgds,
    David

    Chris brought the simulator in Friday but it was a no-go situation. He
    had told me it hooked up to the serial port. I figured we'd hook it up
    to my laptop and have at it. What he didn't mention is that it uses the
    standard 25 pin DB25 connector versus the smaller 9 pin connector on
    the serial port of my laptop and every other pc we could find at the
    office.
    
    Chris said the folks at Ambrosia (sp?) said it would work with a
    conversion cable. We tried rigging one up but couldn't get it to go.
    We'll try again another day.

    re -.2 
    
    Many non RC types have tried it and yes they do crash rather quickly. 
    It simulates the real thing quite well.  Crosswinds, sun position,
    etc...  There are some 100 parameters that can be adjusted.
    
    Chris

    re -.1
    
    Thanks - sounds like It would be more fun in the long run to have a
    RC simulator.  It would be real rewarding (I bet) to see your kids solo
    their own RC plane!  Beats just "playing pilot" behind the stick of a 
    simulated real airplane (which I will most likely never fly anyway!)
    
    Out goes Flight Simulator -- in comes Aerochoper.
    
    
    Dave

    Chris, you mentioned alot about choppers but what about planes?
    Are there different types of configurations for the planes? Like
    biplanes, low wings, etc.

    re -.1
    
    Yes, there are 4 planes to select and you have the same 100 parameters
    to tailor it to fly like yours.
    
    THe planes are pattern/sport, high wing trainer, glider (power or winch
    launch selectable), and F18 Ducted Fan.
    
    Gotta run,
    
    Chris

>                                                 <<< Note 1471.28 by MAIL::SPOHR >>>
>
>    re -.1
>    
>    Yes, there are 4 planes to select and you have the same 100 parameters
>    to tailor it to fly like yours.
>    
>    THe planes are pattern/sport, high wing trainer, glider (power or winch
>    launch selectable), and F18 Ducted Fan.
>    
>    Gotta run,
>    
>    Chris

Tell us about the winch launch.
Are there thermals?

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    Kay,
    
    I'm not a glider type, but if my memory is correct...
    
    You press one of the function keys (F1) I think and a winch and cable
    majicly appear.  You hit another key to begin the launch.  Your on your
    way and when you are somewhere clsoe to being over the winch it
    releases automatically (I think, only tried it 2-3 times).  
    
    I think there are parameters to set the thermal strength, activity,
    frequency, etc...  
    
    I'll try to remember to bring the book with me next week to answer more
    specifically.
    
    Chris
    
    ps Have a nice Thankgiving everyone
    
    

    Does Aerochopter support a sound board?  It would be nice to know
    (hear) when you're up to proper RPM.  Last question is...Does it
    come with instructions for flying Helis?  Or can you reccommend a good 
    book?
    
    Later,
    Dave

    Dave,
    
    No Aerochopper does'nt support a sound board.  The PC speaker does
    produce engine rpm sounds.  When you give it throttle or hit idle up,
    the "beat" increases.  
    
    While the book is a good 1/4" thick, it does not tell you how to fly a
    plane or heli.  There are several books out on the subjects though. 
    for heli try the manual by Mike Mas.  I hear that it is excellent.
    
    Chris
    

Hi,

     Just picked up Aerochopper for the Amiga.  Has anyone figured out a
parameter block for their chopper?  I'd like to get it set up for the 
Concept 30 DX if possible.  It might help me save a few REAL choppers! ;-)

Curt

I've just ordered the Dave Brown.  I noticed in the Tower catalog that
you can buy just the program disk.  Since I only want to get something
that will keep me from wrecking my plane due to lack of practice
(yesterday I got about a minute of stick time--my first in about 6
weeks! Had to quit because the wind was getting nasty), I think the
Dave Brown will do fine.  I talked to someone at the factory and asked
him if I could fly it off my Kraft Thunderstick.  This is ok, but you
have to simulate the rudder channel by tying it high with a 50K
resistor between pin 11 of the cable and +5V on pins 1,7,8, or 15. At
least this is what he says!  I'll report on it after I've shaken it
down a bit.

I tried the tower view on the MS flight simulator, and sorry guys, it
doesn't even come close to being adequate.  In addition to the problem
with not being able to see the ground, it has a much bigger problem in
the that the scale of the program doesn't nearly match an RC plane.
That is, I have to use full stick to get it to fly like a RC plane,
and even then it reacts only very, very, slowly.  Also, the distance
factor causes the plane to go into the dis-orientation zone with even
a moderate 180 turn after takeoff.  I tinkered with it about 3 or 4
hours, adjusting parameters and found that the tower/spot view with
about a 2x zoom factor works best, but even at that it is nowhere like
flying an RC ship.

Got the DB simulator last nite, pretty nice.

I first flew the trainer just to get the feel of it and found right
away that the simulator must be located at sea level because the
takeoff run was about 10 feet versus the 100 or so feet it takes up
here at 7000 feet.  Other than that I had to adjust the control
sensitivities a bit to get the Thunderstick to feel right.  As I said
in my previous note, I installed a 50K resistor between pins 11 and 1
of the 15-pin plug to simulate a centered rudder, per DB.

Because the original plug was potted, I wound up cutting it off and
making up a new one. I buzzed out the old connector to determine the
pinouts, if anybody wants one, I have a paper from the IBM PC
conference that gives the pinouts for the plug. Radio Schlock does not
carry this connector and I had to go to one of wonderful electronic
junk shops to get one.  Of course, I cannot steer the plane on the
ground with this setup, and I'm planning to install either a proper
throttle/rudder joystick or a 100K slide pot to get this to work.
Naturally, the cable on the Thunderstick only has 7 wires and I need 8
for this, so I'll probably replace the cable too.

Anyway, back to the flyng.  Once I got the feel of the trainer, I
moved to the intermediate ship and found it to be relatively easy to
fly too.  So I skipped over to the advanced one and it was a little
more of a challenge.  In fact, in the 15 or 20 flights I did with it,
I only got it down in one piece a couple of times.  Now this is more
like reality as I know it!  I adjusted things a little and found a
nice setting that was fairly close to something I could fly.

After taking a TV break, I went back and fiddled with the intermediate
ship--it seemed the best candidate for what I wanted, a Duraplane-like
simulator.  I set the sensitivities to 7 out of 9, and upped the
power/weight ratio to 1.5, which made it a little more like real life.
When I started crashing that one too, I knew I was close.  I need to
tweak a little on this and it will be the one I'll be using for now.
Mostly, I need to work with the stability settings as I think the
simulator is a little too unstable to be like real life.  Maybe then I
can readjust the power/weight ratio to be a little more reasonable.

Comments: It will be doing what I want it to do, that is, keep the
thumb-rust out when I can't go flying for several weeks at a time.

I was a little dissappointed at the orientation of the simulator.  It
places you at the very end of the runway about 10 feet from the edge.
I don't know where this model field is, I've never heard of one where
you fly from that position.  In the center would be nice, or maybe
about 20 feet in from the end.  This makes it hard to line the plane
up for a landing.  There are numerous reference marks given on the
display, a compass rose a height finder, and a little set-in bird's
eye view of the field.  I hope that when I get comfortable with these
marks I'll be able to line up and then I can get some landing
practice.

Also, the configurations I tried were all trikes, geez doesn't anybody
fly taildraggers?  I didn't try the pattern ship or the fun fly,
maybe one of these is a taildragger.  And of course, there isn't much
you can change in the dimensions of the model, its really basic in
that respect.  But, like I said, its just for thumb-rust anyway and
its close enough for that.

    Re-.1
    
    John,
    
    Glad to see that the DB simulator is satisfying your needs...
    
    But had you gotten Aerochopper you would find that "EVERTHING" is
    adjustable.  For example, the size of the craft, the camera angle and
    height (aka where you are standing at the field), wind, thermals, and
    you could fly heli's too!   :-)  :-)
    
    

Yeah, I really thought about that, but the kicker is that I bought
the disk only for $50.  I probably should have called the Aerochopper
folks to find out if I could buy the disk, but I didn't.

I went out at noon and picked up 6 feet of 8-conductor cable and a
nice little slide pot with a center detent.  Surgery is scheduled for
tomorrow nite.

    I just got my Aerochopper Simulator last night and I'm very impressed
    with it!  I plugged the TX into my serial port, loaded the software,
    and it ran with no problems.  I was surprised because I have often had
    problems getting serial port stuff to work since there are so many
    things that can go wrong.  It will take me some time to experiment with
    all of the options for configuring the plane, but I found it to be very
    reasonable right out of the box.  It completely blows away the version
    of Dave Brown I had on my old Franklin Apple II Clone.  The animation
    is very smooth and the TX works well.
    
    By the way, I could not resist taking the TX apart to see what kind of
    stuff was in there.  It is very clever!  There is an 8-Bit 4 channel
    A/D Converter (National ADC 08034CCN) and a Single Chip Microcontroller
    (National COP413C)  These two chips convert the joystick positons to 8
    bit serial data and ship it to the PC.  Since there's a 512byte ROM in
    the Microcontroller, you can not duplicate the TX setup without getting
    this chip from them.  This is a perfect form of copy protection.  The
    software is useless without the TX that comes with it.  THey could just
    as easily (and more cheaply) have hooked the TX to a PC Game port like
    the Dave Brown one does.  However, the Game Port does not have the
    input quality that the 8 Bit converter provides, especially Linearity.
    It would also be easy to make a "TX" if they had hooked it a game port.
    
    I'm sure that this will set my building projects back a bit!
    
    Charlie
    

    Mr Eaton,
    
    Where are you?  It's been over a week since you test flew my
    Aerochopper... and no report to the gang.
    
    You must actually be working!
    
    

    
    Charlie,
    
         Sounds like you will be having the same problems that I have
    been experiencing regarding "getting my building done"!. It's too
    easy to just press a button, and be flying in seconds! No drive to
    the field ( 15 - 55 minutes each way for me ), no gas mess,
    no set up, no COLD weather, no risk of having to repair a model after
    crashing, etc! 
         I feel that in a month, AEROCHOPPER has allowed me to
    experiment, and progress at a rate not possible under "actual"
    conditions. I also feel fairly comfortable flying the Chopper at this
    point. The "acid" test would be to try a real chopper, and see how much
    is transferable. My guess is that if you had the same flight parameters
    in the simulator and the actual chopper, the transfer rate would be
    very high.
    
         AEROCHOPPER HAS mproved my flying, but has turned out
    to be a mixed blessing, as my desire to actually build, fly, and repair
    "real" RC planes has gone down ( especially in the winter. BRRRRR!).
         After the initial "new toy" syndrom wore off, I have found that 10-30
    minutes/day on AEROCHOPPER works well, and then I can spend other time on
    building, etc. The difference is that 30 minutes of flying on the
    simulator IS 30 minutes of flying, as opposed to 30 minutes of flying
    out of a 2 hour trip to the field.
    
         I would recommend AEROCHOPPER to any RC flyer with a PC.
    Especially RC flyers who have become dissilutioned and have started
    to build RC cars ( George! :). 
    
                                                            DW2

RE:1471.39
>   > Mr Eaton,
>    
>   > Where are you?  It's been over a week since you test flew my
>   > Aerochopper... and no report to the gang.
    
>   > You must actually be working!
 
Chris, I told you I don't feel qualified to report on this product in public on
just one test try. Please remember to bring the Aerochopper in once a week until
it warms up out side and then I'll probably have enough data to make a report. 
8^)

Actually, Chris brougth it in a couple of weeks ago and let me play with it for
the day. The good news is I think its great. The bad news is that its not very
compatable with my DECpc320p. 

Most of the time was spent playing in helicopter mode although Chris did let me
fly an F-18. The helicopter feels/looks right and I was soon doing hovering
rolls that didn't look to gawd awful. It would definitely help to spend 20 
minutes a day flying this. As for a beginner using it, I still don't know. I 
had a fellow here in the office with no RC experience of any kind try his hand
at flying the copter. He managed much longer than I think he would have with 
a real copter. Chris reported the same king of experience when he first saw the
product at a Chicago trade show. In their group, it was the new copter pilot
who didn't have any problems. I guess ignorance is bliss sometimes. 

Bottom line is I think this is a great aid for anyone flying a copter but I'd
suggest a beginner procede with caution when trying the real thing for the first
time.

Like Charlie, I got curious but since I didn't want to have Chris pissed at me
for breaking his toy, I left the box sealed and hooked it up to a data scope.
I didn't have a lot of time to look but  it looks like they are sending a nine 
byte stream of data. Mayby a byte per channel + buttons + ?????? + id.

The F-18 was interesting. Once upon a time both Chris and I started building
25 sized pusher F-18s from plans published in MAN I think. Chris finished first
and had done a beautiful job. The first flight lasted about 18 seconds. After
that I lost interest in finishing mine. Chris has reprodued the F-18 in 
Aerochopper so he insisted I try it. The flight lasted about 18 seconds. Just
like Chris with the real one, I got it up and into the first turn. As soon as I
banked into the turn I lost orientation on the jet just like Chris did. Neat
stuff..


Ok Chris,

I put a report in.


Bring Aerochopper back to work soon!!!!!!!!!!

>                                                 <<< Note 1471.38 by LEDS::WATT >>>
>                                                   -< Another Aerochopper Owner >-
...
>    software is useless without the TX that comes with it.  THey could just
>    as easily (and more cheaply) have hooked the TX to a PC Game port like
>    the Dave Brown one does.  However, the Game Port does not have the

Charlie, most (almost all) notebook PCs don't have game ports and you can't
add one to them.  From that perspective it ovens up a whole chunk of market
to the manufactures.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################


    

    Kay,
    	I think they probably did the serial port because they did this for
    the Atari first.  It probably adds $10 or so to the cost of the TX
    hardware but it virtually prevents any copying of their software
    product.  The software won't work without their TX.  They may have
    thought about Notebooks but I doubt it since they were very slow to
    even to Aerochopper for the PC.  It took at least three years of
    hounding to get them to do it.
    
    Charlie
    
    P. S.  I am very impressed with this product and I would recommend it
    to anyone who wants to practice flying during the "off season".  I'm
    pretty sure that it would help keep the reflexes sharp.  The "level of
    difficulty" is very adjustable from rank beginner to crazy and
    uncontrollable.  I don't know that much about choppers but I've been
    having fun trying to fly one.  I've broken at least a hundred sets of
    rotor blades. :-)  Definately worth $200
    

    Maybe we should get one for a certain Machetti-man that we know. I
    thought of a small mod. 
    
    2000 volts through the stick every time you fly over the Pits.
    
    Regards,
    
    Eric.

    I've actually been practicing flying into the camera.  Machetti-man has
    done that, hasn't he???
    
    
    Charlie
    

    I brought Aerochopper in again at Dan's request.
    
    The title says it all...   :-)
    

RE:

>    I brought Aerochopper in again at Dan's request.
>    
>    The title says it all...   :-)


Of course, the killer was he brought it in Friday morning and 'forgot' to pick 
it up before he left work that night. I was stuck with it all weekend. 8^)  Then
to sweeten things further, my DEC320pc laptop was replaced by a DEC325pc laptop
Friday morning. Aerochopper has no problems on the DEC32pc unlike the problems
I saw with the DEC320pc. 

I had the kids hooked Friday evening and my wife didn't flinch too much Saturday
afternoon when she asked me how much it cost. I told her I want it for my 
birthday.

 
The real reason I borrowed it was to show my friend Cam. I think it would really
help him and it would be nice if he could actually fly all pf his helicopters. 
We were going to run Aerochopper on his wife's computer but it didn't have a 
serial port.  I tried hooking her VGA monitor to my laptop but I'd only gotten
the new laptop an hour before and hadn't had time to change the configuration so
I could switch to the external VGA port. We ended up running it on the laptop
with the B&W screen. Cam had a pair of tri-focals on and the small screen size 
was driving him nuts. I'll have to try this again later when Cam gets the new 
pair of glasses he was waiting for. 

    Trifocals?. Hmmm a good candidate for RC flying. :-) 
    
    I have no desire to buy one of these things but the WRAM show is
    coming.............
    
    Just imagine teaching my whole family to fly without one broken plane
    or mossi bite!.
    
    One criticism. They did not include a Gremlin!. Nor did they include
    Gremlin "bounce" properties on their models.
    
    E.

    re -.1
    
    Eric,
    
    I knew they left something out...
    
    I sure miss the "Hand Launch" technique!
    
    

    Just picked up Aerochopper Friday at the local shop. Wow.... I love it,
    you can adjust almost any parameter there is. Even though it doesn't
    have a Biplane you can make enought adjustments to simulate one.
    Question for other people that have this wonder. I noticed that the
    manual says that there are different parameters for bombs and missles
    but that the PC version doesn't have this capability. Also there are
    some parameters that are not explained in the book. I have version 1.02
    is this the current version? Software is dated 1992 the book is dated
    1991.
    
    Dennis
    
    
    

    re: -.1
    
    The book supplied is the current one, however it needs to be updated by
    Ambrosia.  The book was was writtenr for the Apple and Atari versions
    which preceded the just recently released IBM compatible version.  The
    IBM version does not have the bombs and missiles (just like real RC).
    
    Version 1.02 is the current version.  I just updated to it.   It now
    gives a brief crash summary when you, you guessed it, crash.  Also, it
    is my understanding that the code has been optimized to run on slower
    386 machines.  I personally can't tell a difference on my 386-40.
    
    Regards,
    
    Chris

    Greetings fliers
    
    I`ve just found this conference so I hope someone still reads this
    note.  	
    
    Has anyone had experience with Aerochopper on an Amiga, especially an
    accelerated one.  How does it compare to the PC version?  The reason I
    ask is that from the flight simulators I`ve seen the PC ones always
    seem to be better than Amiga version (probably due to the fact that the
    most popular Amigas are a lot slower than a 386)
    
    Gavin
    
    

    Gavin,
    	The Aerochopper is better on the Amiga than on the PC.  They left
    out several features when they ported it to the PC.  Other than that,
    it is just about the same.  They did not even rewrite the manual - it
    is still for the Amiga with a 1 sheet addendum for the PC.  I saw it on
    the Amiga when it first came out.  Speed is not an issue.
    
    CHarlie
    

    Thanks 	
    	 
    it looks like I`ll be breaking into the piggy bank again soon :-)	
    
    Gavin
    
    

    I wish that I had one. Need to practice those 4-point rolls. :-)
    
    E.

    Has anyone seen the new simulator distributed by J.Perkins, I think
    it`s produced by NHP.  There was an advert in a recent RCM&E listing
    the features and it looks really good.
    
    
    Gavin.

I might have an option to pick one up as part of a package deal. What's it
work with and what's provided with the kit?

    It`s for PC  486 or higher.  It connects to the buddybox system on J.R
    Futaba and I think one other make was mentioned.  So all your existing
    setups on the transmitter will work.  It didn`t say how it
    connects to the pc, serial or an internel card.  Will simulate Acro,
    Glider and heli with loads of options to set up different models.  It
    claims to simulate the aerodynamic properties correctly.

    Well, I've just got a 386 on the Intel side of the house and it runs
    Linux anyway. I'll probably look at Aerochopper to go with the other
    pieces of the package 8^)
    
    Thanks.

    I have my Aerochopper for sale if anyone is interested.  $125 and I
    will pay the shipping to you in the U.S.
    
    Any takers?  call me at dtn 445-6577 or All-in-1 Chris Spohr @STO
    
    

    Is it the Mac version?
    
    The guy decided to keep the simulator...

    Jim, nope... it was the IBM/PC version.  I sold it last night!
    

    I bought the NHP simulator earlier this week.
    
    I have about 90 minutes on it so far.
    
    Right now it is only helicopter (even though their WEB advertisement
    says it does planes too!)  The floppy that came with mine is marked
    version 7.0.  When I installed it and ran it, the screeen read "version
    7.1".
    
    So far it is the most realistic simulator I have flown.  It has that
    "feel".  I was a die hard aerochopper fan (I still like Aerochopper for
    many reasons) but the NHP offers some features and benefits that
    enticed me to switch.
    
    PRO's for NHP  			CON's for NHP
    
    Uses your TX via DSC/trainer port	No sound card support (PC SPKR)
    Most realistic simulation		No airplane (at least in the U.S.)
    Real life parameter settings	Graphics on Aerchopper better now
    Real life models programmed		Almost costs as much as Aerochopper
    Frees up a serial port on your PC	Only one heli image for all models
    
    What pushed me over the edge to change was how "real" it feels.  The
    only way I could practice with more realsim would be to fire up my
    Junior 50 and hover it in my living room.  It's that good.
    
    You get the following items:
    
    NHP software, a small but informative manual, a TX adapter cord, and a
    parallel port adapter (goes between your printer and PC).
    
    Questions?
    

    YEah, where's the web page and how much was it?
    
    Andy
    

    I paid $185 dollars U.S. at a local hobby shop for the NHP/CSM
    simulator.
    
    Two years ago I paid $200 for Aerochopper version 1.0
    
    The NHP/CSM advertisement on the WEB is:
    
    http://www.lance.co.uk/w3mh/oct95/nhp_csm.htm
    
    Any other questions?
    

    Ok, so they have a UK site. Is there a Mac version available in the UK?
    Brian Anthony watching? 

    Does the Tx adapter plug into the game port, serial port or the
    parallel port?   The game port would be nice, then I could use my
    Tx for games!
    
    Andy
    

    The NHP simulator comes with a parallel port adapter that goes between
    your PC's printer port and your printer.  It's about 3 inches long. 
    The parallel port adapter has a 2mm jack in the side of it.  The TX adapter
    cord then plugs into back of your TX via the DSC/Trainer jack and the other
    end plugs into the 2mm jack on the parallel port adapter.	
    
    So the answer is "PARALLEL PORT". 
    
     

    
    
    Did I miss this. Does in run on Win-95?
    

    re .65
    
    Slightly better price difference in the UK.  Aerochopper is �200 and
    NHP is �110.
    
    re .63
    
    It should be shipping as heli and fixed wing version in the UK.  The
    advert in RCM&E gave equal space to heli and fixed wing options.  But I
    have been told that if you send the disk back you will get the new
    version.  Only trouble is I can`t find anyone with the J.R. leads in
    stock they only seem to have futaba left.
                                                                      

    Just to confirm my last note.
    
    NHP is shipping in the UK with heli and fixed wing.  I just spoke to
    the distributers to confirm it.  They are just shipping the new version
    to the US so it should be arriving over there soon and they will
    upgrade it for you there should be a warranty card in the box giving
    details of where to get it.  
    
    

    There was no warranty card in my box, but in the back of the manaul it
    says contact for Horizon for services.
    
    

    Re: a few replies back
    
    Aerochopper is DOS based (so is NHP).
    
    

    re -.2
    
    The web site mentioned a few replies back seems to have the updated
    s/ware available for download now.

    
    I finally had time after lunch to see if NHP had any news on the USA
    updates that were referenced in the pervious reply.  Yup, it was there.
     
    I downloaded it and I'll try it out tonight.
    
    It states in their Advertisement that it now includes Airplanes, Heli's
    and a "Design Factory!"
    
    I'll try to give a report tomorrow on the new features.
    
    Until then...
     

    Well... what can I say.  I'm impressed!
    
    This is the most realistic "feel" of any simulator I have used.  The
    only points where it is weak is in the look of the graphics
    (Aerochopper is the most realistic looking) and the lack of sound card
    support by NHP.
    
    Which simulator do I recommend?  That depends on the desired features. 
    If you want realistic feel, buy the NHP without question.  Want the
    best looking and best sound support, buy the Aerochopper.
    
    That's my 2 cents worth.
    
    Chris

    
    
    
    
    NHP has no sound support? Or poor sound support.
    
    
    

Just take a tape recorder to the field and listen to it go
 reeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrerererrrr
rrrrrrrrererererrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

We put a palmcorder in a J-3 1/3 scale looking out the front. The auto-level
mike wasn't impressed with changes in throttle...

    NHP has sound support via the PC speaker which, for what it is,
    reproduces a pseudo engine sound and crash noises that are "gamelike".
    
    My previous replies should have stated that NHP does not have "Sound
    Card" support.
    
    Cheers,
    

        My thanks go to Chris Spohr who managed to find another Ambrosia
        Aerochopper system for sale in his neck of the woods and
        generously acted as the middleman to close the deal!
        
        I've now got about 4 hours of playing with Aerochopper and it's
        pretty good for what it does. I've never flown an RC Heli but
        after a few sessions on the simulator I can safely say that
        there's nothing to it - flying a simulator , that is! It's a very
        good thing that it comes with an inexhaustable supply of
        helicopters or I'd be out of pocket and patience. :*)
        
        Seriously though - I remember reading a note earlier asking if a
        novice could fly the simulator in heli mode and not crash - I'm
        slightly familiar with rc mode II from fixed wing; I know a
        little about the concepts of cyclic and collective, hence, a
        novice is a good description - I crash regularly. At best, I
        can manage a wobbly hover for maybe 10 seconds before it gets
        away from me and transitions to directional flight with me either
        crashing or hitting the power and flying it around me in big
        circles like a conventional RC fixed wing. At this point I'm
        basically screwed since I haven't quite got the hang of
        transitioning back into hover and under control enough to present
        the correct attitude for a (controlled) landing.
        
        It's reasonably good in fixed wing mode with choices of large
        and small monoplanes, biplane and sailplane - with around 30
        "scenarios" to choose from giving variations in aircraft type,
        wind conditions and aircraft trim and characteristics. Bear in
        mind that all of the above is based on using the simulator pretty
        much in "defaults" mode - most, if not all of the characteristics
        can be adjust to suit specific craft.
        
        Bottom line - worth every penny IMO.
        
        Andy
        

    I'm in the market for a Helicopter/Airplane Simulator and I have been
    reading the notes here on the Dave Brown and the Aerochopper and I was
    wondering if there was a Hobby Shop in the "area" where I could
    purchase the Aerochopper.  I live in Norwood and I work at PKO1.
    
    Thanx,
    
    CHris.....

    
     RC Buyers in Nashua, NH carries Aerochopper and the NHP flight
    simulators. I think they are both $199.

    Which one is better?  The Aerochopper Or the NHP?
    
    Thanx,
    
    Chris.....

Aerochopper has been around longer and there have been many success stories in
here with people using it. NHP is the new kid on the block but they've gotten
good reviews.

    
     I have Aerochopper, but I would consider NHP if I were buying today.
    One major advantage with the NHP is you can hook up your own TX ( with
    your stored computer settings ) and fly. Aerochopper supplies a
    basic "Futaba" TX box that you fly with. Aerochopper currently has
    nicer looking heli/airplane models, but NHP is still pretty good.
    Basically from the reviews lately, NHP is the new "king of the hill".
    
    

    Thanx for the info.  Does anyone know if RC Buyers in Nashua has either
    of these set up so you can try/view how they run?  Also is there a
    pointer for a phone number/directions on how to get to RC Buyers?
    
    THanx again,
    
    Chris.....

R/C Buyers Warehouse    (603) 595-2494

Don't remember him having them set up but I wasn't looking at simulators while
there.

    I have NHP, mainly to fly fixed wing, and I am very pleased with it.
    
    One problem that I do have (and I would like to know if this applies to
    the other simulators) is that when you are flying at a realistic height
    you have no ground reference, and hence I cannot figure out where the
    aircraft is relative the circuit. In the NHP there are some tick that
    indicate the bearing, BUT since they have no identifiers that is not
    much use.
    
    Stewart
    
    

    
       Bob doesn't have any of the simulators set up at RC Buyers.
    
       Re: Ground Reference
    
            This is a limitation of current PC based simulators, Aerochopper
            suffers from the same problem.
    
     
       If you still need directions to RC Buyers, send me mail

    I went to RC Buyers Saturday and purchased the Aerochopper simulator. 
    I haven't had a chance to install it yet though.  I think I'll read the
    manual first and than install it.
    
    Very impressive store he has, lots of "stuff"!  I can see myself
    spending alot of time and money there.  Its also alot closer than I
    thought it was going to be, only about a 40 minute ride from my house
    in Norwood.
    
    Is there any "glitches" in the set-up of this I shold know about before
    I install it?  I have a 386, 33Mhz, with 16 Meg of RAM.  Also have a
    sound card.  THis is soon to be updated to a Pentium 100 in the very
    near future.
    
    Thanx,
    
    Chris.....

    
        
        You shouldn't have any problem setting up Aerochopper. I think
    the only "gotcha" is that is runs off a serial port instead of the
    normal "game card". You can even run it off the floppy is you chose
    to. A 386 is more than enough to run it.
    
                                                  Enjoy!

    >I can see myself spending alot of time and money there.
    
    Boy, you ain't kidding. It'd probably have been cheaper for me to
    become an RC Buyers partner than it has been buying the bits to
    kit & outfit 6 birds and two pilot-wannabees ;^)
    
    Ouchie!
    
    /dave