Conference vmszoo::rc

Yes, the CYA does the job.  Use the stuff sparingly as it leaves a
white mark on the plastic; you don't want a visible mark.  Tack the
canopy in place with several well-placed drops of CYA, then hold the
plastic down in contact with the fuse and wick a little CYA into the
joint.  If you live in a high humidity area, as along the coast, the
stuff will kick off quickly; here in Colorado I need to use Kicker,
so for a canopy I'd opt for celluloise model airplane cement. 

CYA loves to stick one's fingers to the plastic; use a piece of wood
or similar to hold the canopy down while you put in the CYA. 

Scotch Post-its are the cat's neow for mixing two part epoxy.
I just pour equal parts in two puddles on top of my Post-it pad
and stir it up with my putty knife.  After I'm thru I just peel
off the top Post-it and wipe my putty knife off on it and to 
the trash with it - leaving 99 remaining pads for my next crash.

Prior to this I was using coffee can lids.

              _!_
Bye        ----O----
Kay R. Fisher / \
 
==============================================================

        Sounds similar to what someone did last year to make model rocket
        body tubes. Paint the glue on the appropriate parts of a sheet of
        paper (do not cover the inside or outside of what will be the
        finished tube), then roll it around a dowel and iron to set the
        glue. The only problem with the balsa is that you have a much
        thicker insulator between the iron and the glue. Work slowly
        and make sure you get it well fastened.
        
        This should also tell you something about white glue: it is not
        heat resistant. This shouldn't be a problem with wing sheating,
        but is elsewhere. It does lead to another trick when parts are
        joined with white glue, thou. The heat of a 100w light bulb will
        soften a white glue joint enough that a crooked joint can be bent
        straight. This comes in handy on our model rockets when a fin
        isn't quite straight. It does require additional reinforcing, as
        the rocket casing temperature can do this same trick in flight :-( 

        A friend who works very fast and very accurately does his sheeting
        with Hot Stuff T. Not much room for error with that. 

    I know this reply is, more than likely, well after the fact, but
    it may be of value to those facing similar gluing tasks in the fu-
    ture.  RC-56, a white glue made by Willhold is specially formulated
    for gluing plastics (canopies, etc.) to wood or just about anything
    else and is just about the greatest thing since bottled beer.  It
    provides a canopy-to-fuse joint superior to anything I've seen to
    date, dries clear and doesn't make you a permanent part of your
    creation 'til your wife can de-bond you from it.
    
    Another note...John, we in arid Arizona have the problem you men-
    tioned about CYA's not wanting to kick due to the dryness of the
    air in spades.  Sometimes it isn't appropriate to use an acceler-
    ator (kicker) as it will attack certain finishes and many plastics.
    The solution is to ADD MOISTURE.  That's right, pre-moistening the
    intended joint area with a little water on a cotton swab will cause
    the CYA to "kick like crazy."  An atomizer or small spray bottle
    works fine for larger jobs.  Also, instead of using a piece of wood
    (which will now stick to the work in place of your finger) to apply
    pressure to a CYA joint, use a piece of almost any kind of plastic
    bag (like R/C hardware comes packaged in) between your finger(s)
    and the joint, then simply peel it off after the joint "kicks."
    Teflon works even better!
    
    Oh! one more thought on gluing canopies/windshields on with RC-56;
    if your bird is covered with one of the MANY plastic films, you
    must trim it away to expose the wood before gluing.  Actually, you
    should do this no matter WHAT kind of glue you're using...NOTHING
    sticks to these films very well for very long!

    Another little tip, re: CYA's;  for general cleanup of CYA glues
    from floors, bench-tops, finger-tips, ad infinitum.....save that
    EXPENSIVE debonder and use plain old, garden-variety acetone. It
    can be obtained from yer' local Standard Brands (or nearly any 
    paint store) for 4-5 bucks per GALLON.  Be warned, however, NOT 
    to use it (acetone) to clean CYA spills from plastics and certain
    types of finishes, i.e. lacquers, dopes, etc.  I'm not sure how
    it works on film coverings but, AS ALWAYS, if unsure, test it on
    a scrap sample BEFORE using on the real article.
    
    If you feel a gallon is an awful lot to keep around for cleaning
    CYA goofs, know that it is an excellent (and CHEAP) solvent for
    cleaning paint brushes, spray guns/air brushes and, in a pinch,
    can be used as thinner for lacquer, dope, etc.  It's also good for
    cleaning engines after they've had their noses rubbed in the dirt.
    Just make sure to lube/oil everything real good before re-assembly
    (especially bearings) as it removes ALL oil from the innards of
    the engine.
    
    There're probably a zillion other chores acetone is good for around
    the shop.  Let's hear from you if you have some.
    
    Adios,
    
    Al

Acetone can be had in quarts.  Std. Brands used to carry it that
way.  It is mainly used as a polyester resin solvent, so look for
it in the fiberglass section.

If I remember right, it is an effective thinner for butryate
dope.

WARNING: Acetone is linked with cancer and with breathing
disorders; use in vented space, do not handle if you have open
cuts, etc. (note how I got around trying to spell carcenogen and
respritory -- that's what us tech writers do when we can't spell
a word -- dictionary? I dont have one)

    Can't say as I know of anythig that will work as well as RC-56.
    Certainly, everyday whilte-glues (Elmer's) or aliphatic resins
    (Tite-bond, Pica, etc.) won't work satisfactorily in its place.
    
    You might try "haunting" any/all hobby shops in the area (es-
    pecially older, longer established ones) on the off-chance you 
    might find some languishing on the shelf. I've had no trouble locating
    it locally (which doesn't help you, I know).  Also, you might check
    the mail-order catalogs to see if they can supply RC-56.
    
    If you strike-out, the best thing I can suggest is to (carefully)
    use one of the thicker CYA's, bearing in mind that, if you should
    dribble it onto the windshield/canopy, you're just about "doomed"
    as de-bonders will attack the plastic.
    
    Wish I could be of more help....,	Al

    I MYSELF HATE TO USE ANYTHING EXCEPT RC56.  Problem with Ca is
    that as it cures it sometimes reacts with the plastic and 
    causes a haze.  I have seen "Plast A Zap" CA for plastic. Maybe
    that would work? I haven't tried it.
    
    						Tom

RE: .7
-    All this talk about RC56 is great if you 'r an old timer and bought
-    some a couple of years ago.  I still can't find any in my area.
-    The local hobby shop claims they are going to make another batch
-    of it because of the demand.  Until that time how's about a substitute
-    that works as good!

    NOT TRUE...  I just happened to read this note before going to Tom's
    Hobby Korner in Chelmsford, MA last night.  And what did I see??
    About a half dozen bottles of R/C-56 glue.. (there's one less now).
    
    Where do you live??  If you are not in the area then I suggest 2
    things....
    
    	1) Tom's does do some mail order.  He advertises in the classified
    	   section of MA and RCM.  His number is 617-251-4576.  The
    	   shipping may be as much as the glue though...
    
    	2) Is there a local noter that would be willing to buy one and
    	   send it to you??  If you can't find anyone else, I wil be
    	   going back probably sometime in the next month... Let me
   	   know...

    I guess I should have bought a second bottle for you anyways, but
    I didn't think of that until I was stuck in traffic on my way home...
    Sorry.
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

I'm new to this hobby and I just bought a Sophisticated Lady as a first project.
The use of CA's in construction is new to me so I have a few questions. At the
shop (Fisher RC), I got conflicting opinions as to whether to use the thin or
gap filling type of CA. The owner suggested the filler but the guy who sold me
the kit said that he liked to work faster and the thin stuff was better, so
that's what I got (not that I'm in a hurry, but it seemed to me that the thin CA
would allow me to pre-assemble the wing ribs and spars, etc. and then let the
glue soak into the joints). When I got home and had time to read the
instructions, they also said not to use the very thin adhesive. Is it a
reasonable compromise to use the thin to tack everything in place and then to go
over the structure again, using gap-filler to strengthen the joints? 

What are the differences between Monocote and Ultracote? I like the idea of a 
transparent color for a high flying model and it seems to me that that would 
give one the opportunity to check the wing structure for damage after a crash. 
Is there any support for this idea?

Instead of using a second layer of film for two-tone color schemes, could I 
airbrush a paint/laquer etc. over Ultracote? What kind of paint?

Dave

        Re:< Note 66.11 by OPUS::BUSCH >

        Dave,
        
                It's not either or, but both that you need!
        
                For extremely  well  fitting  joints  with  zero  gap you
        should use thin  CA.    Hold  the joint together and then apply a
        drop of CA.   it  will  be drawn into the joint through capillary
        action and produce a stronger bond than any other technique can.
        
                Where there is a less  perfect  joint,  such  as when you
        bond ply to balsa, or there  is  a  tiny crack you thould use gap
        filling CA.  For ply to balsa  joints  apply  glue to the ply and
        then press the balsa into place.  Where  you  have  a  less  than
        perfect joint apply just as described under thin.
        
                Where you have a real crack you will need  to  resort  to
        kicker.  Apply gapfilling CA to the joint and then  give  a  thin
        spray of kicker.
        
                For  repair  jobs  on fuel contaminated wood I always use
        CA.   This in contrary to normal folk lore, which dictates epozy.
        Epoxy bonds poorly on oily surfaces, but CA just works fine.
        
                Ultracote and monocote have  different  glue composition,
        different heat tolerance and different  shrinking  properties.  I
        don't remember exactly how they differ.
        
        Anker

    Re: .11, Dave,
    
    Yes, it's a perfectly acceptable practice to tack with regular CYA,
    then go back and fillet the joint with gap-filling.  The real trick
    to any CYA is to double/triple-check that everything's aligned
    _precisely_ the way you want it _before_ applying the adhesive.  If
    you wind up with a misalignment, it can be absolute H*ll to redo,
    even with the use of debonders.
    
    The primary difference of one brand of film versus another is in
    ease of application, tensile strength, puncture resistance, etc.
    The transparent films are just as strong (or weak) as the solid
    colored varieties.  I too like transparency on the structure of
    glider/oldtimer-type models, primarily just for the aesthetics of
    it, but some functionality exists as well in being able to inspect
    the structure through the covering, as you mentioned.  Go fer' it.
    
    Ratz!  I've forgotten what the 3rd question was...guess I'll have
    to bail-out, re-read yer' note and make a follow-up reply.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    I've been trying to find the right adhesive for canopys for years
    .  The PVA (white glues) work if the joint will not be put under
    stress or moisture.  The "super glues" have all the problems mentioned.
     I finally broke down and bought some of the plasti Zap.  It seemed
    to fog the insides of the canopies less, but as usual it stuck to
    my fingers a lot better than the plastic.  One fellow at the local
    plastic modelers club  swears by it though.  My main problem with
    the kicker is that it often seems to instantly boil the superglue
    into a hard white froth....disaster in small scale modeling.
       At first I had real problems using the superglues to join small
    balsa parts in rubber FF models....It just wouldn't dry anywhere
    except on the fingers holding the balsa.  Then somebody told me
    that there was acid in the wood causing the problem.  I pulled the
    old box of baking soda out of the refrigerator where it is used
    to keep the smell down, dipped the end of my stringers into it,
    and presto--no more problem.  I would really like to know what Zip
    Kicker is....I wonder if it really isn't something common like baking
    soda, water and?  I really balk when I have to spend as much on
    a bottle of something to make glue work that costs as much as one
    of the small models.
    
    Black Bart c/o Nelson

    Bart, re: .18,
    
    The "kickers" you ask about are a specific type of freon...I'd have
    to look at a label to recall _what_ specific type but all brands
    of accelerator are based on this type of freon.
    
    CYA's rely on the minute amount of moisture that nearly any material
    contains as sort of a natural kicker and frequently, if the adhesive
    seems to simply refuse to kick/stick, it's because the material(s)
    being joined are just too dry.                    
    
    When I've run into this problem, I've had good success with dabbing
    a little moisture/water into the area intended to be glued using
    a cotton swab or similar applicator _before_ adding the CYA adhesive.
    The moisture causes the glue to kick just like it normally would without
    the necessity of using an accelerator.

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    	Recently a friend of mine put a large canopy onto a Goldberg
    Skytiger. He used CA glue. The canopy then developed a mist inside
    which just kills the appearence of the plane. What is the best way
    to put a canopy on?

    There is a product for just that application called RC25.  I am
    not sure who puts this out, but is has recently found its way
    back to the hobby shop shelves.  Hope this helps.  I have used
    it to glue heli canopies together at the seam and it works well
    on that application.

		________
	 /	  __|__  
	=========[_____\>
	/	__|___|__/  BREAK A BLADE,
			    Ken    	

    Re: last two,
    
    That's precisely the danger of using CYA to attach canopies,
    windscreens, windows, etc.  Not only that, I think yer' friend'll
    find it doesn't hold all that well either.  If one insists upon
    using CYA, use _ONLY_ the thick, gap-filling variety of CYA and
    "_DO_NOT_" use a kicker...let it kick of its own accord; even then,
    it may fog the inside of the plastic.
    
    The best adhesive I know of for this purpose is Willhold RC56. 
    (I think this is what Ken's referring to in .-1.)  This product
    sticks plastic to almost anything and remains flexible enough _not_
    to crack later under the vibration and other pitfalls of our operating
    environment.  Fillets of Epoxy-lyte(sp?), micro-balloons, etc. are
    fine but these too will crack in time if the canopy is not securely
    affixed...CYA _will_ crack, allowing the fillet to crack as well.
    I _know_ as I have this situation to repair on the MiG-3, not being
    smart enough to follow my own advice when building it some 5-years
    or so ago.    

      |
      | |      00	 Adios,      Al
    |_|_|      ( >o
      |    Z__(O_\_	(The Desert Rat)

    RE Northeast hobby epoxy.. I'll never touch it again it's not a
    quality epoxy (at least what I've had, and what I've been told
    by a person who is very knowledgeable about adhesives). When a
    good epoxy dries you should be able to scrape it with a knife
    and see white area where you scrapped. The problem with Tom's
    is that when it gets covered with fuel, it becomes rubbery.
    This is the experiance I've had, and I was told after the fact
    by this person that it becomes rubbery with fuel. He suggested
    that I use Hobbypoxy 3 hour stuff was best. When I cracked the
    engine case where the carb slides into the case I fixed the crack
    with glass and hobbypoxy. It constantly gets fuel soaked, and heat
    soaked, and it's still rock solid. 
    
    
    						Dave
    

    A VAXnotes software bug split this string.  The following note was the
    original 66.27.   Whenever you see something strange happening at the
    end of a set of replies, please save the reply on your screen in a
    scratch file in case it is about to be lost forever.  (That is how I
    managed to preserve this entry.)  Then notify me of the problem.
    
    Alton, the Notesfile tree surgeon
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note 66.27                      glue for a canopy                       27 of 27
KYOA::GAROZZO                                         7 lines  10-OCT-1988 10:28
                                 -< new glue >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I just was reading a magazine that said that Zap has a new product
    called Poly-Zap which is good for canopies. It bonds plastic to
    wood and if used in small quantities (1 drop/inch) it will bond
    and not fog or mist.
    
    Bob Garozzo

    I have two questions I need help on:
    
    1. Using RC-56 to glue plastic windows against balsa fuse sides, can I
       dope the balsa first and expect the RC-56 to hold?
    
    2. What color would you recommend that I use on the balsa window
       backing to look realistic?
    
    My Ford Tri-motor calls for putting the window on a solid balsa side
    without cutting out the window area.
    
    As usual, you responce will be appreciated.
    
    Ollie

>                       <<< Note 66.28 by MKOTS1::YATES >>>
>                          -< Gluing windows on balsa >-
>
>    I have two questions I need help on:
>    
>    1. Using RC-56 to glue plastic windows against balsa fuse sides, can I
>       dope the balsa first and expect the RC-56 to hold?

Sure - it sticks to MonoKote so it should also stick to dope.
    
>    2. What color would you recommend that I use on the balsa window
>       backing to look realistic?

Whatever color the full scale was.
    
>    My Ford Tri-motor calls for putting the window on a solid balsa side
>    without cutting out the window area.

I picked up a little bitty router bit for my Dremel at the Wilmington show
a couple of years ago - just made for this exact use.  You just route
around the window frame the depth equal to the thickness of the plastic
and the width you choose for your window edge.  Only the corners require some
hand fiddling and if you make rounded corners you can avoid that.

The windows on the bridge of my tugboat were done this way.  I have
a very high tool to product ratio!    

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
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