Conference terri::cars_uk

I'am starting to change my mind about selecting a TZD Turbo
for my next car.... acording to the below figures  (Autocar & Motor)
not only is the diesel turbo much slower than the GTI (as you would
expect).. but it also slower than a Ford 1.6 (dontknow if thats a 1.6I)
... only being faster in the 30-50 range and the 50-70 range 
(where it is much faster than the 1.6 Ford.    BX Turbo Diesel 11.6 sec
and the Ford 26.0 sec)

Comments anyone ?


                 cc     max    max      max    0     30     .24    30    50     overall  touring    mph
                        bhp    lb       mph   60     70     mile   50    70     mpg      mpg        /1000
   			       ft  							rpm
bx 19rd         1905     65    88        98   15.6   17.1   20.2   9.1   16.7   42.1   48.7    22.5
bx 19 dtr turbo 1769     90   134       104   11.9   13.1   18.3   8.2   11.6   36.2   47.4    25.6
ford 1.6        1597    105   101       115    9.7    9.6   17.2   8.9   26.0   30.9   36.8    22.6
bx gti          1905    125   128       120    9.0    9.1   16.6   7.4   10.6   27.1   33.8    21.1 

    re-1
    
    That is a bit slow.  Never mind a Volvo TD will blow a BX GTi away
    on 30-50 (4.7) and 50-70 (8.8) ;-)
    
    Grant

    Re a couple back;
    
    I'm not sure I believe the Autocar figures.. I think they are a bit
    on the slow side for both the DTRT and the GTi...
    
    But you can't really compare the two; there is such a difference
    in economy. The TZD Turbo will keep up with the GTi in most traffic,
    and cruise at 100 as easily as the GTi. It won't cruise at 120, which
    the GTi could do (in Germany, of course...)
    
    The difference is the TZDT will do 45 mpg (at least), while the
    GTi will do 30 to 35 mpg, on a more expensive fuel....

    I find my DTR Turbo is fine for keeping up with the traffic, and
    is excellent if I'm in a hurry. And the 14.5 gallon tank gives you
    a range of 700 miles, which the GTi can't...
    
    Peter
    
    (who is biased, especially as I've just ordered a TZD Turbo, with
    ABS and Air Conditioining, in Black, for August 1st delivery...)

>> <<< Note 327.44 by VANDAL::BAILEY "BX! Turbo diesel or GTI?" >>>
>>                  -< Sounds a bit slow... >-
>>
>>I'am starting to change my mind about selecting a TZD Turbo
>>for my next car.... acording to the below figures  (Autocar & Motor)
>>not only is the diesel turbo much slower than the GTI (as you would
>>expect).. but it also slower than a Ford 1.6 (dontknow if thats a 1.6I)
>>... only being faster in the 30-50 range and the 50-70 range 
>>(where it is much faster than the 1.6 Ford.    BX Turbo Diesel 11.6 sec
>>and the Ford 26.0 sec)
    
    
    Firstly, what is the date on these figures?. The standard 19RD has been
    71 BHP 91 thingumies of torque since mid 87! Citroen are also quoting
    0-60 as 10 secs for the TZD turbo, and previously did for the DTR turbo
    for several years (though initially it was 11.6ish).
    
    Secondly, how often do you do 0-60?. I'm very much more interested in
    the mid-range/mid speed acceleration. it's what counts in overtaking!.
    Personally, I think the 0-60 is a vastly over rated yardstick as it
    relates the least to real life. Only usefull for
    burn_away_at_the_lights_driving
    
    Thirdly, MUCH slower than the GTi?. the 50-70 is 1.0 secs slower!, the
    ford is 16.0 secs slower!
    
    Fourthly, It's a TZD turbo, was a DTR turbo, and does not have numbers,
    definitely not 19, in it's designation.
     
    
                 cc     max    max      max    0     30     .24    30    50     overall  touring    mph
                        bhp    lb       mph   60     70     mile   50    70     mpg      mpg        /1000
   			       ft  							rpm
bx 19rd         1905     65    88        98   15.6   17.1   20.2   9.1   16.7   42.1   48.7    22.5
bx 19 dtr turbo 1769     90   134       104   11.9   13.1   18.3   8.2   11.6   36.2   47.4    25.6
ford 1.6        1597    105   101       115    9.7    9.6   17.2   8.9   26.0   30.9   36.8    22.6
bx gti          1905    125   128       120    9.0    9.1   16.6   7.4   10.6   27.1   33.8    21.1 

Richard

         <<< Note 327.47 by UKCSSE::RDAVIES "Live long and prosper" >>>
                     -< Taken with a heft pinch of salt! >-


>    Firstly, what is the date on these figures?

I'll check tonight..



>    Secondly, how often do you do 0-60?. 

not very often at all.. but taken as an indication of
the turbo diesel Vs other .. it makes the claims I've
read (both here and in various car mags) of the 
TD haveing "near GTI performance" a little suspect

> I'm very much more interested in
> the mid-range/mid speed acceleration

me too ! I'df like to be able to overtake too
(currently with a Pug 1.8 Diesel)

>    Thirdly, MUCH slower than the GTi?. the 50-70 is 1.0 secs slower!, the
>    ford is 16.0 secs slower!

true.. but overall..
    



But the _REAL_ test is next week.. I've got a TZD TD for
a weeks extended test drive.. that should tell me everything
I want to know

A (possibly) interesting point I read this weekend
about the new Peugeot 309 Turbo Diesel... though it has
the same 1769 turbo charged engine as the BX ..
since it has no intercooler the power output drops
from 90 BHP (the BX) to only 71 BHP (the 309)


(from a full review of the 309 TD in "Diesel Car")

    I wonder why they don't just drop the 1.9 diesel into the 309, as
    that gives 71 bhp, anyway, and is 1,000 pounds cheaper!
    
    Hmm, maybe they have, and don't bother with the turbo at all!
    
    The 309 is a bit smaller than the BX, and is nearly as expensive,
    and not so well equipped.
    
    Peter.

        <<< Note 327.48 by VANDAL::BAILEY "BX! Turbo diesel or GTI?" >>>

>But the _REAL_ test is next week.. I've got a TZD TD for
>a weeks extended test drive.. that should tell me everything
>I want to know



!sigh! make that the week after !.. Citroen should
have delivered the TZD TD yesterday.. but on checking
that had me down for a BX GTI on the following Monday !!!!!!
.. so I have to wait a few more days to test out the
TD  (and then if dont' 'like' the TD i'll go for
the GTI!)


Ho Hum..

>>     <<< Note 327.50 by CURRNT::RUSSELL "I should have got a Duracell!!" >>>
>>    I wonder why they don't just drop the 1.9 diesel into the 309, as
>>    that gives 71 bhp, anyway, and is 1,000 pounds cheaper!
    
    I think actually it's 75 bhp for the non-intercooled turbo 1769cc. I
    think the main difference is that the torque is up quite a bit higher
    than the normal 1905cc. 
    
    Dunno why Peugot persist with the 'old' 65 bhp 1905cc engine for the
    309, yet have the 'newer' 71 bhp version of the same engine for the
    405. It creates a higher number of variants!. 
    
    Richard

    Well I've had the BX TZD turbo on demo for a couple of day's now. Some
    parts I like, some I don't.
    
    
    I like the shape (still :-)), it's comfortable, and it's got all the
    nice feature's. I found the turbo to neck jerking in the lower gears,
    particularly first. You take off, up to 200 rpm it's a 1.7 diesel, then
    wham kick in the back, whap you hit the rev limiter. Less pronounced in
    the other gears and it's then a thrill to drive. Lot's of power to
    overtake as and when you want. 
    
    Because of the higher gearing it's more work to drive than the normal
    1.9, which, due to it's lower overall gearing and flatter torque curve,
    you can drive almost semi-automatic like, only occasionally needing to
    change down to 4th.
    
    The ride is even better than my current BX, there's less roll on
    corners as the suspension is the GTi setting.
    
    I've had two BX's, both with the light grey interior. I found the black
    interior gave an impression of less space, but I found the seats very
    much more comfortable than the one's on the standard diesels.
    
    Don't think I'd like to have it for a family because of the
    neck-jerking take-off's, but for a 'boy-racer' it'd be great.
    
    Alway's fancied one, glad I haven't ordered one.

>> Don't think I'd like to have it for a family because of the
>> neck-jerking take-off's, but for a 'boy-racer' it'd be great.
    
>> Alway's fancied one, glad I haven't ordered one.

Richard,

	You mean you are not going to order one simply because 
you can't control your right foot??!! Try ordering a new foot -
I'l get you the part number...

	I admit, you have to be extremely careful on starting from
rest when you want to get away quickly but this is mainly because
of the very limited rev band and the need to change up much more
quickly that you would with most other cars. The rest is up to the 
driver.

	As for the "boy racer" thing, I'm definately NOT one of those!
I like my DTR turbo because of the safety margin it gives me when I 
want to overtake but I drive it very much as I drove my 19RD and get
almost exactly the same fuel consumption figures (43.something)
overall.

	You don't say what you have ordered - come on, own up and let's
all have a laugh!!!

Colin

    Have to admit that my comments were written with only brief experience
    of the car (so many colleagues kept wanting a go). After using it all
    weekend I had got used to it, and enjoyed the car.
    
    However, the low rear roof line is a killer as I often have my
    (carless) inlaws in the rear. And at 5'8"" I was jammed against the
    ceiling!. I think the new split rear seats have slightly thicker
    squabs.
    
    Re what I actually ordered.....
    
    already exclusively revealed in note 793.47!.
    
    Richard

   <<< Note 327.54 by CARLIE::DAWSON "Turn ignition on - Turn brain off!" >>>
                   -< It's all in the (right) foot you know >-

>	You mean you are not going to order one simply because 
>you can't control your right foot??!! Try ordering a new foot -
>I'l get you the part number...


(not that I need one.. but)

What _is_ the part number ?

    If I ever extricate my foot from my mouth, I'll check to see
    if it has a part number on it....
    
    Peter.		(Thought I'd say it before Jane did!)
    

.55�already exclusively revealed in note 793.47!.

    Sorry to be a nuisance, but could you correct the note number please?

    Martin.

re .-1

         <<< Note 327.55 by UKCSSE::RDAVIES "Live long and prosper" >>>

>    Re what I actually ordered.....
>    already exclusively revealed in note 793.47!.
    
         <<< Note 793.47 by UKCSSE::RDAVIES "Live long and prosper" >>>

>    I'm just placing an order for the 416 GSi 

    Silly me, I read the "!" as a "1"; hence I couldn't find the note.
    
    Martin.
    
    P.S. Richard, I thought you were looking at the Pug 405?
    

>>  <<< Note 327.60 by FERNEY::SMITH "Haute Cuisine - 50 ways to cook Oats!" >>>
>>                                -< My mistake. >-

>>    Silly me, I read the "!" as a "1"; hence I couldn't find the note.
    
>>    Martin.
    
>>    P.S. Richard, I thought you were looking at the Pug 405?
    
    
    That was yesterday, this is today! :-)
    
    No, I liked the 405, but was concerned at the limited access to the
    boot (it only opens above the lights level. I liked the 405 estate, but
    SWMBO thought it too big for our needs.
    
    So I was off looking at other options like the montego (which I
    disliked) when we spied upon the rover. Very impressed with quality,
    size and feel just right, and the saloon version (which has a bigger
    boot than the hatch) opens down to the bumper. Only reservation is the
    consumption as they don't (currently) do it as a diesel.
    (rumour has it the perkins diesel is too big, and they're looking at
    the pug/cit diesel engine from the 309/405/BX)
    
    
    Anyway, I've taken the plunge, order placed, 416 GSi with leather
    seats, rear elec windows, power steering. Delivery on or after 22 aug.
    
    Richard

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
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Note 1121.0                 Peugeot 309 Turbo diesel                  No replies
LARVAE::SUGDEN "Schhhhhh......."                     12 lines  22-JUN-1990 09:43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Am considering the Peugeot 309 Turbo diesel as next lease car because
    of my high mileage.
    
    Does anyone have direct experience of this and/or fuel consumption
    figures?
    
    Can I have a good look at the car? Difficult to get more than polite
    but limited interest from Hadleys because PHH insist on buying
    elsewhere.
    
    Rob
    

.62�============================================================================
.62�Note                    Peugeot 309 Turbo diesel                  No replies
.62�LARVAE::SUGDEN "Schhhhhh......."                 12 lines  22-JUN-1990 09:43

    Has anyone any literature they could post to me? Strangely enough, I
    have not seen anything about the 309 Turbo Diesel, neither in the press
    nor on the television.

    Martin.

    On the assumption that this is the same turbo as in the Citroen turbo
    (1.7 litres), I get an overall 43.something mpg which is nearly
    identical to what I got out of my old 19RD (both estates).	
    
    Suggest you wander into some other Pug showroom and look like you are
    interested personnally....

    
    As an alternative to Hadleys, for Pugs, try Chawton End Garage,
    who I have always found most helpful.
    
    14 Winchester Road,
    Four Marks
    Alton, Hants.
    
    Phone Alton 62354
    

    Going round in a loop but...
>>    <<< Note 327.64 by VOGON::DAWSON "Turn ignition on - Turn brain off!" >>>

>>    On the assumption that this is the same turbo as in the Citroen turbo
>>    (1.7 litres), I get an overall 43.something mpg which is nearly
>>    identical to what I got out of my old 19RD (both estates).	
    
    
    No, it's the same engine and turbo.. but in the 309 they don't fit the
    intercooler. It gives more power and torque than either the 309 or
    405/BX versions of the 1.9. But less than the 405/BX intercooled turbo.
    
    Martin, was it you wanted the info or someone else?. There is info in
    the current 309 brochure as it's on the road over here.
    
    Richard

.66�Martin, was it you wanted the info or someone else?. There is info in
.66�the current 309 brochure as it's on the road over here.

    Yes Richard, it was; and I don't suppose you happen to have a copy? (he
    said on his knees and with his hands together!) as I don't know when I'm
    next back.

    Martin.

    P.S. Learnt the complete story of the BX yesterday.

I noticed with interest this morning that there are two
quotes in VTX ..

   7   CITROEN BX D DTR TURBO HATCHBACK         1800       4818/ 1397
   8   CITROEN BX D DTR TURBO HATCHBACK         1800       4738/ 1316


( Delivery: 04 JUL 90)... but I thought that the DTR had been replaced
by the TZD some time ago !

Confused of Newbury

    Your right, this model dissappeared about 6 months ago; superceded by
    the TZD turbo with lots more goodies.
    
    Some one ought to tell them! :-)
    
    Richard

         <<< Note 327.69 by UKCSSE::RDAVIES "Live long and prosper" >>>
                  -< Can I have a quote for a morris marina? >-

>    Some one ought to tell them! :-)
    


After an exchange of mails between me and Fleet admin (because my 
car order is 'broken') the situation seems to be....



The quote numbers are issued by  Fleet admin.. and just because
a quote is shown by VTX does not mean that a car maybe ordered
against it  (as the disclaimer says when you enter VTX  Quotes)

What puzzles me is how a invalid quote request can turn
up on VTX with a price & delivery date (which to me means that
a leasing company must have provided that info) when no
such car exists ? (or in the case of the car _I_ ordered 
the quote says 1.7 when the leasing company says its a 1.8
engine (its really a 1.76 engine!)

Where do the bogus figures come from ?

    re the last couple;
    
    maybe the lease company has founda garage with some old DTR models
    who are prepared to give a discount, and so you could get a DTR instead
    of a TZD...
    
    Anyway, is there a difference between the last DTR and the TZD? I
    thought it was only the badge that had changed?
    
    Peter		(waiting for his black TZDT in four weeks!)

    Not unless the DTR ended up with electric passenger mirror, remote
    central locking, interior light delay, six speaker stereo. (have I
    missed anything? :-) ) I know the last one's had the spoiler, but It's
    all these little goodies that were added.
    
    Richard
    P.S. plus the sexy smokey back lights!

    re .72;
    
    Yup, I think the last DTR's did have all the goodies.
    
    I *think* the only changes for '90 model year was the smoked 
    back lights, and the name change, but it wouldn't be the first time I'm
    wrong.
    
    BTW - the latest price list shows auto as an option on the TGD and TZD,
    and not the turbo diesel. Interestingly enough, it also doesn't show
    the remote central locking as an option any more.... I'll find out on
    Aug 1st when my new car is delivered - did I mention I'd ordered a black
    TZD Turbo, with ABS and air-con, to match the sexy black back lights?
    
    Peter.

>>    Aug 1st when my new car is delivered - did I mention I'd ordered a black
>>   TZD Turbo, with ABS and air-con, to match the sexy black back lights?
								   *******

	Don't you mean Tights ???

   re .74
    
    	>Don't you mean Tights ???
    
    Nope Tom, I don't find any tights sexy, not even black ones.
    
   Now, if it's stockings and sussies you're talking about...
    
    Peter.		(where's the coldshower!)

...why is it called the "giggle zone".

    Bearing in mind .75 mentions "stockings";
    
    it's called the "giggle zone" because 
    
    once you get past it, you're laughing.
    
    (i.e., the gap at the top of the ....)
    
    Peter.
    
    (Jane will kill me for this!)
    

Why's it sexist?  No-one's saying who's wearing the stockings...

Yes I know the "giggle zone" is the bare flesh above the stockings (all right,
calm down...), and I've heard the "once you're past it you're laughing" bit
(which incidentally isn't always true...), but I thought there would be a
better reason than that, like the tops of people's legs being ticklish or
something.  Maybe not.  Perhaps I'd better stick to kit cars, at least they
don't get headaches...

Scott

Who's Jane?  Does she give "giggle zone" demonstrations?

    

    
    I think that .79 and the PS in .80 have probably gone far enough;
    - if life is important to you that is....
    

    re .80;
    
    I daren't answer that one.
    
    I will say she has very sharp elbows, and is known to be very careless
    as to where she places ice-cubes....
    
    Peter	(who is very glad he's out of the office for the
    		 next two weeks, and hopes she'll have forgotten this!)
    

    
    Not a chance, Peter :-)

   <<< Note 327.70 by VANDAL::BAILEY "BX Turbo drivers do it with woooosh" >>>


>After an exchange of mails between me and Fleet admin (because my 
>car order is 'broken') the situation seems to be....


!sigh! its a down hill trip..

after the trouble refered to in .70 (which mean's it took a month
from when I hand delivered my order to car fleet to getting
my order in !) 

after that I got an anticipated delivery date of 1st August
.. but when I had'nt heard from a garage by the 30th of July
I checked back with car fleet

I now have an  anticipated delivery date of 8th OCTOBER 

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
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Note 37.492                        The BX note                        492 of 498
VOGON::DAWSON "Turn ignition on - Turn brain off!"   20 lines  10-OCT-1990 07:30
                         -< Ask the panel - round 13 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    	I have had two BX estates as my last cars (a 19RD and now a DTR
    turbo). The lease on the latter is coming up for renewal. My main,
    unshakable criteria are that the follow-on must be a diesel estate,
    preferably with similar (or superior) performance and economy and not 
    cost a great deal more. I can only think of four practical alternatives 
    to the BX. The idea of a third row of seats appeals but only in a car
    "superior" to the BX which I enjoy driving very much and am only really
    considerig changing for the hell of it.
    
    	Any suggestions? I have my mind fairly well made up but I'd be
    interested in what the panel think!!
    
    	BTW, I was not able to do what I was originally intending to do and
    buy my BX from Hertz for my wife and get myself a "hot hatch" ; I am
    not able to finance the former from the reduction in lease cost of the
    latter.
    
    	Thanks for your comments.
    
    Colin

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
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Note 37.493                        The BX note                        493 of 498
SWEEP::PREECE "I say, you chaps...!"                 43 lines  10-OCT-1990 09:23
                               -< So why not ? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colin....(and the Panel..)

I'm going to be in a similar situation soon, looking to replace my BX DTR Turbo,
so I started the round of the showrooms.   I'm sold on diesel, so that's one
of the first things I ask about, and it's elicited some interesting reactions
from salesmen (who should, perhaps, know better)

	Nissan... two salesmen actually burst out laughing. There
	are two cars in the range with diesel options, the Sunny and the
	Bluebird, but in both cases, you can only get very basic trim and
	limited extras, and no turbo or "performance" option.
	"Of course, Sir, diesels are only used for working vehicles, so
	we fit the basic, hard-wearing interior trim" (said with a sneer!)

	Honda...  Nothing at all.   None of the Honda range has a diesel option.

	Renault.. The options start to disappear as soon as you want a diesel.
	For example... if you order a 21 with a diesel, you can't get it with
	a sun roof. (???)

	Ford..   Sharp intake of breath from the salesman. Most models have
	a diesel variant, but on long delivery and with a limited choice of 
	options. No performance option.

	Fiat.. Getting better, the Tipo Turbo diesel was nice, just not big
	enough (and the dash-board drove me crazy).. more investigating
	to do here.

	Peugeot..  Feels just like home.  Check out the 405 GTD turbo, Colin
	.. a very similar package to the BX, all the extras, plus all
	the optional bits are available on the diesel variant (ABS, a/c, etc),
	but with "conventional" suspension, for the faint-of-heart.

	Citroen..  Well, I may end up by just getting another one !


It seems to be the case that most manufacturers regard diesel as suited 
only to the delivery-van market, with one or two notable exceptions, like
Citroen and Peugeot, who go to the other extreme, and offer high levels
of equipment and performance.   Why the wide variation, anybody know ?


IanP

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
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Note 37.494                        The BX note                        494 of 498
WELSWS::SMITHM "Eighty-five days to go."             16 lines  10-OCT-1990 11:59
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.493�                                                                     like
.493�Citroen and Peugeot, who go to the other extreme, and offer high levels
.493�of equipment and performance.   Why the wide variation, anybody know ?

    Ian,

    I can only think that it may be  something to do with the  "home country"
    market.  In France,  there are alot more diesel-engined private cars than
    in the UK.  Therefore, a higher demand for better finishes?  I don't know
    if it has anything to do with it, but the price differential between die-
    sel and petrol is *far* greater in France, than in the UK.

    Perhaps when the demand for diesel-engined cars increase,  manufactureres
    will wake up, and improve the trim?

    Martin.

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
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Note 37.495                        The BX note                        495 of 498
SUBURB::SAXBYM "Really Manic Information Centre"     12 lines  10-OCT-1990 12:06
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Italy is also a BIG market for Diesel cars (remember the old
    SD1 Rover with the Italian Diesel engine?), but it does seem odd
    that more manufacturers don't provide 'up-market' diesel models
    these days.
    
    As a slight aside, what are the running costs of Diesel Turbo BXs
    like? The cars are dearer than their petrol equivalents and (I
    believe) have to be serviced more often. Are these extra costs 
    offset by the fuel saving?
    
    Mark

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
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Note 37.496                        The BX note                        496 of 498
KERNEL::SHELLEYR "Adios, amoeba _m_���_m_"            9 lines  10-OCT-1990 13:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Re: .-1
    > manufacturers don't provide 'up-market' diesel models these days.
           
    I notice Ford are now offering a diesel engine in the new orion
    ghia. Is that upmarket enough ?
    
    - Roy
    p.s. I know this isn't BX related.
    

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
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Note 37.497                        The BX note                        497 of 498
MANWRK::SMITHM "Eighty-five days to go."             18 lines  10-OCT-1990 13:09
                          -< Any advance on 50,000? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.495�Italy is also a BIG market for Diesel cars

    Yes I know, I forgot about the Italians!

.495�                                         Are these extra costs 
.495�offset by the fuel saving?

    I was led to believe that a diesel car owner had to do 50,000 miles
    (or was it Km?) before it started paying for itself.

.496�I notice Ford are now offering a diesel engine in the new orion
.496�ghia.

    They have had this specification `sur la continent' for the past three-
    ish years or so. BTW, I did consider this car, but Peugeot won in the
    end.

    Martin.

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
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Note 37.498                        The BX note                        498 of 498
CMOTEC::HORNBYK                                      19 lines  10-OCT-1990 13:34
                           -< think its due to tax? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    My DTR Turbo estate is also to be replaced at the end of this year...
    looks like there will be a glut of DTR T'S hitting the streets!
    
    I too am looking for a replacement diesel, the only models that I have
    found,that come anywhere near the Citroen/Peugeot seem to be the Passat or
    the Audi 80.The Build quality is superior but not so good in the value
    for money stakes,also the 80 is a saloon with an incredibly small boot.
    They also have less acceleration, but do seem very economical.
    
    Colin if you want a change what about the Montego? (I haven't driven
    one but the reports are good).
    
    Italy also have alot of cars useing LPG, I have the impression many
    Euro countrys do not tax Diesel and LPG cars as highly as the petrol
    engined variety.In France/Belgium I beleive the diesel ranges are as
    good as the petrol,especialy Renault,they even do an Espace diesel.
    
    ps My DTR Turbo averages low 40's mpg.

    The ford Sierra is also now available with a 1.8 turbo diesel engine
    (no intercooler), with a fairly high spec (not as good as Cit/Pug) but
    better than most Japs. Trouble is you couldn't test drive one (I tried
    months ago, and gave up after a 2 month wait!).
    
    Richard

    Notes> SET NOTE / NOTE_ID = new_note_id

    Saves cutting and pasting or "moved by moderator"!

    I've used it, and it's BRILL!

    Martin.

    Re: .93
    
    Beat me to it, but we've been down this path before.  Mr. Mod: WHEN are
    you going to get the MARVIN system manager to convert this file??
    
    Jeff.

    re both.
    Yes I know it's a great feature, but it needs the notefile converted to
    accepted the function. I have asked, not heared anything since,
    Brendan, Tevor, if your listening, how about converting this file
    please?.
    
    
    Richard

    	To get back to the point of this note (all you SET NIT - sorry,
    NOTE - gurus) the Peugeot405 GTD turbo (to get the same power as my
    turbo BX) is listed at 1472 on VTX (saloon) as against 1015 for a BX
    TZD turbo estate (that's LESS than my current lease cost!!) - so that's
    out!!
    
    	My short list of five included Montego 2 litre diesel turbo (I'm
    arranging to test drive one soon and am very interested) - there's one
    on VTX at only 823 but I'm not sure if that was the DSLX turbo or not.
    Also Renault 21 Savanna (2 litre GTX estate at 1473 - not sure how this
    performance compares with my current car) and Passat (but a GL turbo
    diesel estate is at 1778 so that's definately out, too!!).
    
    	The other interesting one I looked at at the motor show was the new
    Fiat Tempra. There was a RHD estate on show but these will not come on
    stream until the spring.
    
    	I think it's down to a choice of the Montego or the Renault as an
    alternative to another BX. I'll keep you posted if you're interested!
    
    Colin

    As a Savanna driver I can confirm that the GTX estate (1700cc petrol)
    goes like a dog. The non-turbo diesel is so far down the power league
    that it is probably not worth considering. Why does Renault insist on
    putting the Turbo Diesel in only yje saloon/hatch and why is it 2068cc?
    
    A_TXE_driver_who_has_proved_the_2000cc_engine_inadeqaute_as_a_load_carrier

    > why is it 2068cc?
    
    To help the Chancellor, maybe? :-(
    
    Jeff.

   
>    My list of five included Montego 2 litre diesel turbo (I'm
>    arranging to test drive one soon and am very interested) - there's one
>    on VTX at only 823 but I'm not sure if that was the DSLX turbo or not.

This is the Montego Countryman special edition - I have just ordered one after
PHH sc***ed my 214 order. 

The Countryman is the Montego estate packaged as a 7-seater with DSLX 
options: 
	(electric f/windows, sunroof etc) + goodies (incl rear load 
         compartment seat). 

Its the 2.0 turbo diesel priced at 13200 (also in 1.6 and 2.0i petrol engines).
I have a brochure (Note I suspect the countryman is coming to the end). You 
will also find that you have just missed THE opportunity; it was underpriced
on VTX, true value is about 1100. 

Do you think I am sold on this ?

Mike    

Ok, I've waded through this note with no success. Can someone help me ?
What is the difference between the TGD and the TZD (other than price ?).

Thanks,

Karen

>>               <<< Note 327.100 by EXIT::BOOTHE "Karen Boothe" >>>
>>                                -< TGD or TZD >-

>>Ok, I've waded through this note with no success. Can someone help me ?
>>What is the difference between the TGD and the TZD (other than price ?).
    
    Goodies!
    
    Get a current brochure for full details, but more or less
    
    TGD has
    	power steering
    	central locking
    	electric front windows
    	electric sun roof
    	tinted windows
    	tilt drivers seat
    	rev counter
    	tweed seat covers
    	split rear seats
    
    TZD has above plus
    	electric rear windows
    	six speaker stereo
    	velour seat covers different colour if turbo model)
    maybe by now remote locking and electric adjust passenger door mirror,
    and interior light delay.
    
    engines same (TZD turbo same as TGD turbo) (19TGD same as 19TZD)
    
    
    Richard

re the last couple;

Do as .-1 says, and get the latest brochure - the '91 models should
be available now or soon, and the specs may change with them.

I've got a TZD turbo delivered in August, and this does have the
following extras over the TGD

electric rear windows
six speaker radio/cassette
velour seats (a bit taller than the TGD - watch out if heardroom a problem)
Remote control central locking
electric passenger window adjust (but not heating on either)
delay on interior lights
pictogram with door/bonnet/hatch warning lights
Gti-style rear spoiler on the TZD turbo, without the smoked quarterlights;
the TZD doesn't have the spoiler, but still has the smoked quarterlights.
The Turbo is supposed to have a 14.5 gallon tank - but  I still can't find
the extra three gallons...

Peter.

So this morning I dig my nice shiny H reg BX TZD Turbo Diesel
out from the frost and start driving to work


Thinks: The car smells a bit of diesel this morning (which is
odd since I filled it up two days ago)

continue driving to work

Nearly at work and I get stuck in a traffic queue for a 
few minutes, become a bit worried when I notice some
smoke (or fumes coming out of the bonnet (only a small
amount here)

Since I was only minutes away from work I continue 
on my way

Park car at work, and on getting out of the car I notice
a trail of diesel fuel across the car park, leading to my 
car that now has a small puddle of diesel under it !

On checking under the hood I can see the engine is awash in diesel

Phone Garage !

    Bet that ruined the famed BX fuel economy !
    
    J.R.

    This weekend read the Peugeot 205 Turbo diesel.
    Same engine as the 309 gives the car GTI like behaviour.
    0 - 100 Km/h in 12 secs.
    
    Well received and luxury car.
    Dfl 34,000.--
    
    Hans

            <<< Note 327.103 by NEWOA::BAILEY "pink Cadillac/VMS" >>>


>On checking under the hood I can see the engine is awash in diesel

And the garage have just returned the car with the fault with
the fuel pipe fixed !

Now: As it a lease car can I claim for the lost fuel 
and having the car washed ?(it stinks of diesel)

Claiming for the lost fuel might be tricky as you have know way of knowing the 
rate of loss. 

I would have thought a steam clean might be in order to get rid of the residue,
but I'd check with Fleet to see if they'd pay first.

Dick

    Hello,
    
    	Shortly I'll be buying a 405 GRDT. In the past there have been
    problems with build quality. Does anyone have any experience of
    the 405 GRDT good or bad.......
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Cheers....Norm Pettet
    

    Hi,
    
    My current lease is close to expiring (BX DTR Turbo) and I like the
    look of the Pug 405 GRD Turbo. However, I havn't been able to find a
    dealer in this area who even has one I can look at never mind test
    drive. So, do any of you good fellow lease car drivers have a 405 GRD
    Turbo that I could have a look at?
    
    Please give me a ring on 830-6816 if you can help me.
    
    Many thanks,
    
    Pete Platt.

    Further to note 18.139, which I've just written(!), does anyone run a
    VW Golf GTD?
    
    I want a clean-running, quick, economical turbo diesel, but can't fit
    in a BX TGD/TZD (I'm at least two inches short of headroom....) because
    Citroen will insist on fitting an electric sunroof as standard....
    
    I've tried to borrow (or even SEE) a Golf GTD from VW dealers, but
    no-one seems to have one; I'm also told by friends that VAG in Milton
    Keynes don't seem interested if you ask THEM. If there's anyone out
    there with a GTD, could you give us your impressions of it, especially
    in relation to other similar turbo diesels? Better still, if someone
    has one on the lease scheme, is there any chance of at least a brief
    drive in it?
    
    I've owned a petrol Golf CL for 2.5 years in the past, so I'm familiar
    with Golfs in general, but I DO want to ensure that getting a turbo
    diesel version would not be a mistake.
    
    
    Cheers,
    Stephen
                                                     

re: .110 

Stephen, see my brief comments in 18.62

Clean running and economical, but not 'quick'. Power steering a 
worthwhile option if it is available.

- Scott

    Steve,
    
    	Try a TZD estate - you can't fit a sun roof to them at all now that
    they've installed the infrared thingyme just behind the "maplight"!! I
    find there is enough headroom (though marginal) if you tilt the whole
    seat back a tad but realise this is not to everyone's taste.
    
    	Don't know about Golf turbo diesels but drove a turbo Passat a
    while ago while looking for an alternative to the BX. Found the
    performance not on a par although the car itself felt very solid and
    "chunky". Didn't go for it because the CS (equivalent price to the BX)
    lacked a lot of the bells and whistles (eg electric rear windows,
    one-shot front windows, etc) that the BX has as standard and the GS is
    much more expensive. Suspect the engine is the same in the Golf and
    would imagine you would be quite happy with it (try and test drive the
    Passat if you can't find the Golf you want - my local VAG garage were
    very helpful and made the arrangements for me to try one from their
    Bath dealer).
    
    Good hunting,
    
    	Colin

    Story is that the Rover 200/400 is due out soon with the Peugot/Citroen
    diesel and Turbo diesel engines. Headroom is better on this car, and
    Airco IS a valid option on curent models. 
    
    Not sure of timescales (1-3 months?) how long can you wait?.
    
    
    Richard

    Rich,
    
    Was that in Autocar? Once again, there's an issue that I should have
    bought and didn't !!
    
    Could you precis the details of the Rover 200 diesels here?
    
    
    Cheers,
    S

    Sorry, I didn't read this first hand, I got told it by a friend.
    
    I'll see if I can get any more detail.
    
    Richard

have been announced at this weeks "Fleet Car Show" in London.

From A&M, Rover used the PSA diesel for "refinement and performance".
The Montego and  Maestro diesels continue with the Perkins version.

The 218SD costs �10,690, with 66 bhp, 0-60 in 16.0 secs, and top speed 96.
The 418GSD turbo costs  �14,250, 87 bhp, 0-60 in 11.8, top speed 106.

The turbo does 50-70 in 8.7 secs.

more prices:
218 SD 10,690 (PAS is 330)
218GSD Turbo 12,675 (PAS included)

418SLD Turbo 12,895 (with PAS)
418GSD Turbo 14,250 (with PAS)

For comparison, a 416SLi is 12,235 withput PAS, and a a 416GSi is 13,435.

Peter.

    Thanks for that.....
    
    Looks like the Rover could be a contender then, although I hope an
    electric sunroof isn't standard: I can't sit comfortably in a 216 GSi
    because the electric sunroof robs me of vital headroom.
    
    RATHOLE danger, I realise....
    
    Why IS IT that manufacturers insist on producing cars for the UK market
    without the option of deleting the sunroof????

    re: <<< Note 327.118 by SAC::DELANY_S >>>
    
    See my note 1228.56.
    
    The rover dealer I spoke to said that you can order a Rover _without_
    a sunroof. I've never followed this up, has anyone else ?
    I to am sick to death with sunroofs. Lets face it modern cars are
    designed for Mr average THEN they put in sunroofs which reduce the
    headroom. Not only that but the s/roof in my wife's car leaks as well.
    
    - Roy

    I asked my local dealer if sunroofs could be deleted. "No, sir, you
    can't do that." I did not press the point.
    
    Steve

I can remember in the dim but no so distant past, either speaking to
someone, or reading it in here maybe, that Rover will sell you car
without the sunrrof, but it's a "special order", so takes longer,
*and it doesn't reduce the price*.

I did ask a Citroen dealer about two years about ordering a BX without the
sun roof but trading the value against air con, and I was told that
was impossible.

Ask the salesman, or if it's a lease car, ask for a quote, and double check
it when it comes....

Peter.

Can anyone with a 405 GRD or GRDT say how comfortable the seats are over long
distances, say 250 miles.?

I've driven the GRDT for about half an hour, which isn't much of a test, and I
just wondered how other people find them. Aside from that, the GRDT looks and
feels a great car, and seems very tempting....


Stephen D

    A colleague has just got a new GRD turbo. That's right, GR spec, but
    with the turbo, obviously the market say's turbo, but the GTDT is too
    expensive. 
    
    Well spec'd, remote central locking, electric lots (including front &
    rear windows. 
    
    Richard

    I can't say about the GRD but I did several 400+ mile family trips to 
    Scotland in my 405 1.9 GR before it was replaced in December.  We
    always found it very comfortable.  The only thing you have to watch out
    for is that the electric sunroof severely restricts headroom.  I am
    6'1" and always had to recline the driver's seat rather more than I
    would have liked.  If you're about 5'11" or more then check this point
    out *carefully*.

    
    Well, I have just put about 800 miles on my new GRDT (I am that person,
    re -a couple) over the weekend. Once I found the right seat position I
    found it to be pretty comfy. I am 6ft 0ins and I don't have a problem
    with headroom even with the seat in a very upright position. This car
    is very pleasent to drive both on the motorway and the twisty roads. It
    is suprisingly slingable for a big car. Over these 800 miles I got just
    over 50 mpg...and I found a garage in North Wales that sells diesel for 
    �1.71 a gallon!
    
    Cheers,
    
    Pete Platt.

    I saw in another note that Peugeot have just added air-con as an option
    to several 405s rather than just the top-of-the-range ones.
    
    Anyone got info on which models have this now? I'm particularly
    interested in whether the 405 turbo diesels can be fitted with it.
    
    
    Cheers,
    Stephen

    
    I picked up a 405 GTD Turbo from Hertz for a colleague last week.  They
    seem to have upped the spec.  A/c came as standard (he hadn't specified
    it on the order), plus 'leccy windows/sunroof and a silly stalk on the
    steering column that controls the radio (why does the radio station
    change when I indicate right ;-)).  I was pretty impressed with the
    car, neat trim, plenty of room, not sluggish actually quite tempting. 
    
    Nev

    re .126
    
    A/C is standard on the GTDturbo, an option on the GRDturbo and not
    available on the GLDturbo.
    
    Same is also true for ABS.
    
    Alloys are standard on the GTDturbo and Dealer fit option (cost is
    around �350) on other models.
    
    All facts apply to the Saloon and the Estate.
    
    

    Has anyone had any quotes from carfleet for diesels recently ??
    
    My car is due for renewal soon, and Im considering doing for a Turbo
    Diesel Estate eg VW Passat or Puegot 405 GRDT...possibly even opting
    out of the scheme.
    
    Cheers
    Paul

    
    Re this --
                     <<< Note 327.129 by MIACT::RANKINE >>>
                 -< Diesel is the same price as Unleaded ??? >-

    Has anyone had any quotes from carfleet for diesels recently ??
    
    
    
    I had two last week, though you'll probably not be interested:
    
    Astra GLS turbo diesel estate, �245 inc metallic
    
    Montego Clubman turbo diesel estate,  �475.
    
    Mike
    
    

    
    A colleague has just ordered a Citroen ZX turbo D over here, and is to
    pay �127. This is for the basic car (which comes with radio etc) but
    no alarm system.
    
    Ian

    Ian, is this Mike Camp?. 
    Which model has he ordered, as the ZX with the turbo D engine comes in
    at least two flavours, Aura and Avantage.
    
    Richard (A few cubes away:-)

    OK, So where's the discussion on the Montego Diesels gone?
    
    I've got a BX 19 TGD Citroen presently, and am considering the Montego
    DLX with the PAS and 7 seat options.
    Having looked at a few recent quotes, I think it is much more
    competitive on the lease scheme than it was 2 years ago.
    I expect the Montego should be marginally more economical on fuel, and
    certainly more solidly built...especially the more recent ones.
    Apparantly, a lot of work has been done cleaning up the engine burn.
    
    Anyone any experience of the new Montego's? 
    
    Thanks,
    
    Tim
    
    PS Also got a quote in for the Peugeot GLD
    
     

    
    Just relinquishing my year old 2.0SL estate (with third row).
    
    It has 38,000 miles and the nearest it's got to a break down was a
    battery that went short circuit (hardly the car's fault). Apart from
    this it has been 100% reliable and ALWAYS started first time. It has
    only been in a garage twice for services (due for one now). I rate it
    as the best designed car that I have driven. Everything is in the right
    place. Downside is poor quality trim. I have got a quote for a diesel
    replacement (see 1582.n) which runs out at about �550. However, will be
    going for something different this time. Why be boring!
    
    Richard

It's time to change the car again, and it's going to be an estate
this time. The Montego is in the running, but none of the Rover
dealers I've tried have got a diesel for me to test-drive. I've had
a look at the petrol version, but really want to see what the diesel
is like.

Has anybody got a diesel version they wouldn't mind me driving (or
being driven in) for a few minutes???

I'm at DEC Park.

Thanks,
Chris.
830-3172

    
    re .135 
    
    Chris,
    
    there's a central number for Rover on VTX somewhere - try them,
    they managed to find a Turbo diesel for me to test drive fairly
    quickly.
    
    Paul

    
    Wooops
    
    I've just checked on VTX - and there's nothing there now. 
    So forget the last note.
    
    Paul

    An update on my Cavalier turbo diesel for anyone that is interested.
    
    I have now had my 'slug mobile' for one month and covered 2400 miles.
    I cover 550 miles before hitting the low fuel warning light from a 
    full tank of fuel. I have kept a log of all the fill ups and can
    report an average over the month of 48.5 mpg.
    
    Royston

Coming back from the Algarve last month, well loaded two up, cruising around
90 MPH except coming OVER the Pyrennees (frequently down to walking pace
DOWNHILL a well as up due to trucks) using flat out acceleration, the car 
returned 32.37, 35.51, 35.1 MPG.  Don't know where the 32.37 MPG came from, 'cos
that was refilling just south of Madrid, and there are some hills but no 
mountains!  The second refill was at St Pee sur Nivelle on the French side of 
the Pyrenees and the last one was at Le Mans.  during that last run (35.1 MPG)
we put 336 miles into the first 4 hours (!) so we weren't hanging about too
much.

	The car?  BX TZD Turbo (1769cc)

	Don't laugh, but we arrived home 07:45 Sunday morning, the engine 
having never missed a beat in the 3,451 miles we covered - would NOT start to
come to work Monday morning!!!!  All four Glow Plugs had died!

				Malcolm.

    �At what sort of speeds/loads/road types?
    
    The 48.5 mpg was an average over the whole month which included
    motorway driving averaging 80mph and town traffic. 
    
    The best I achieved was 50.1mpg which was all motorway work.
    
    I am very impressed with this economy and am saving about �30 a month
    on fuel plus �20 extra salary for taking a lease on a model below
    the (<level 8) allowance.
    
    I'd be interested to know what fuel economy folks with the Astra TD
    are getting.
    
    Royston

    re .140
    
    >>    I'd be interested to know what fuel economy folks with the Astra TD
    >>    are getting.
    
    
    I'll tell you if I ever get to the bottom of the tank.
    Just over 200 miles and it's just hit the 3/4 mark...
    
    
    	Tom.

    I've had an Astra 1.7 TD GLS Estate for just over a month and it's
    turning in 47MPG.  That includes a long run (over 400 miles in one day)
    and commuting 15 miles each way to work each day.
    
    John
    

    An update on my Cavalier LS TD which has just had its first service
    (4500 miles).
    
    The one touch window problem mentioned in 699.16 cured itself after a
    while but the garage checked it out anyway by "reprogramming" it.
    
    Beware you folks with the new digital clock/outside temp display in the
    '94 models. My temp guage went bananas and started showing all sorts of
    bizarre readings during the recent cold spell. I reported this and they
    have had a lot of complaints about this. They have a new sensor on
    order for me.
    
    I have been unhappy with the quality of the cassette player which
    sounds warbled, as if the tape speed isn't constant. They checked this
    out and said it was fine and the problem was probably with my
    "homemade" casssettes which dirty the heads more quickly. This I found
    a bit patronising as they were fine in my Fiesta for 2� years and I
    never cleaned the cassette player heads once !
    
    Still getting 47+ mpg which is great but I'm still gettting used the
    poor acceleration which is equivelent to that of a shunting
    locomotive.
    
    Royston

    
    Talking to my neighbour last night - he has a Cavalier 1.7 TD on his
     companys scheme.
    
    He was driving along the motorway when his silencer fell off -
      interesting noises he said :-).
    
    AA guy drives up - "Oh yes sir - always happens on 1.7 TD with a CAT
    fitted - too heavy you see..."

Does anyone have any experience of the Audi 1.9 TDi?

Looking through one particular car mag it had 72 mpg at 56 mph.

Towards the end of they ear, I'll probably be looking for one. 

I would welcome some comments from people with experience of Audi. I have 
never sat in or driven one. My last few cars have been BMW's (never again!).

Thanks

Craig

    "Whatcar" magazine has the A4 1.9TDi SE at 72.4 MPG at 56mph and the
    1.9 TDi SE 110 at 76.4 mpg!  Their "touring MPG" figures are 54.3 and
    56.7 resp.
    
    Now can I recoupe the quote cost on the diesel?
    
    Jc
    
    

    Well,  the 405 had its last service and first MOT yesterday.  Passed
    the service (obviously),  but failed the MOT and two re-tests due to
    emission problems.  Finaly,  the nice guy in the garage removed the air
    filter and sent it for a final re-test.  It just scraped through. 
    Filter replaced and car replaced - I'm going to be in the Omega note
    now :-(
    
    Jc