Conference 7.286::home_work

	I've seen the flexible shafts which connect to conventional drills
	at Spag's.  The exact price eludes me but $10-$15 sounds about right.
	I believe they are near the other rotary accessories in the main
	building.  (Assuming your near Spag's)  Any hardware store should
	carry them though.  I have no idea how well they work.

    I dont think the flex shaft tools will work very well. Remember there
    is a nail just under the putty. When you hit that the drill or whatever
    tool will take off into something softer- the wood surrounding the
    hole.
    
    Id try real hard to like the look of the putty spots- define then
    as a design element or something. If that wont work, try mixing
    some paint to the final color you want and touching that to each
    putty spot with a smal lartists paint brush.
    
    To clean the brass hardware buy a can of DRAINO. Dump it into a
    bucket of very warm BUT NOT BOILING water. DUmp the parts in, slosh
    them around for about a minute and wash them off in lots of water.
    They should come out spotless and just a bit red brass. If you like
    yellow brass give them a short dunk in muriatic acid. Obviously
    keep the stuff off your hands, and dont use a natural bristle brush
    to clean parts- the lye will turn it into mush in about 5 seconds
    flat.      
    
    Ive cleaned lots of paint with DRAINO. Its basically lye. Buying
    Draino at about $2 a can is cheaper than paint remover, and its
    much faster. Its also a very corrosive chemical, but a lot less
    noxious that all the stuff in paint remover. I just ordered a 10
    pound bag of lye for $16. With that I should have a lifetime supply
    of paint stripper.
         

    I'd try drilling the holes out and installing wood plugs to match.
    You might have to set the nails again to get a deep enough hole.
    
    Nick

    
> Part of the "almost" is due to the fact that the nails that held the unit
> together were countersunk and the holes plugged with something like a putty or
> plaster or spackling.  An opaque coating like paint nicely covers these
> over, but I plan to stain and varnish the ice box.  I did one application
> of stain and I notice that the putty plugs do not take staining at all --
> they stay nearly white. 

    What I would do depends on two factors:  the number of nail holes,
    and the size of the putty plugs.  
    
    1. If there are lots, and they are small, then I'd pick up a small can
    of paint (that matches as closely as possible the color of the stained
    wood) and a tiny brush, and paint over the putty plugs.  If they're
    small, you pprobably won't notice them.
    
    2. If the plugs are larger (1/4" or wider), but are few in number,
    it would be a coin flip between painting and plugging. Plugging
    means:
      a) buying some birch countersink plugs
      b) drilling the proper-sized hole (to match the plugs)
      c) resinking the nails if necessary
      d) inserting the plugs

    3. If there are lots of large plugs, then painting would probably
    be noticable, so I'd take the trouble to place plugs.
    
    					andrew

    I have a 3 year old Magic Chef side by side fridge/freezer. Today
    I went to get something out of the freezer and it was making VERY
    strange noises.  It sounded like something was dripping and hitting
    something hot (a sizzling sound)  The sound was coming from enclosed
    back of the freezer.  There is a vent inside the freezer  and looking
    in I can see moisture (condensation?) but not much else.  I can
    only hear the sound when the freezer door is open...and it doesn't
    happen all the time.  The sizzling sound is what has me worried.
    The fridge has always cycled frequently and is quite noisy (hear
    what I think is the freon cycling through the coils all the time
    when the door is open.   right now I'm wondering if it is time
    to call a repairman to see if something is seriously wrong.
    There hasn't been any problems with keeping things cold/frozen.
    
    
    any ideas what is going on?
    
    thanks in advance.
    
    
    
    

    I may be wrong but it sounds like you may have a bare wire that
    is shorting out from the moisture that you had mentioned.  Maybe
    its the wire that goes to the light inside and every time you open
    the door you hear it.  Just a thought.
                                                    @L

    
    	Sounds like  water is dripping on your heater. The heater is
    used on all frost free units.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    	I'm afraid I cant help w/ your problem, but I'm wondering if
    you might have the address or a Hot line number for Magic Chef
    problems???   I bought two M.C. appliances about 4 yrs ago.  The
    dishwasher has been flawless in operation but the stove has been
    terrible, about everything that could go wrong w/ it has!!!   I've
    replaced the door springs twice and one is gone again the door gaskets
    are gone, the clock has gone south etc. etc.  If you can find that
    info pls send it E mail. 

    Assuming the refrigerator is of the frost-free type, I would agree
    with the earlier note suggesting the defroster heater.  The heater
    melts the ice on the cooling coils periodically.  It should only
    be happening when the refrigerator is not running (the defrost cycle
    disables the compressor).
    

    After looking through the APPLIANCE keyworded notes, I found
    nothing on this, so here goes:
    
    Out of the blue, our refrigerator is not getting cold enough. The
    freezer (above the fridge) is fine.  My wife informed me of this
    unwelcome development on Friday.  She said she noticed that it
    wasn't particularly cool the day before so she turned up the
    setting.  No help.  She said that at this higher setting, in the
    past, there would have been icicles forming on the food. 
    
    I asked if she thought that this was a sudden change or might
    have been gradual.  She said she's not sure, but thinks it
    may have been getting gradually worse over the last two weeks.
    Dairy products have not been keeping as long as normal during
    that period.
    
    Should we start checking the classified ads, or might there
    be any easy (spelled c-h-e-a-p) fix?  This is not the Rolls
    Royce of refrigerators.  By the way, the brand is Coronado,
    the vintage unknown.
    
    Sid

    Before spending hard money, try vacuuming the dirt off the condenser
    coils.  If your frij has been neglected for a while, it will make
    a big difference.
    
    pbm
    

    
    
    DITTO .1 clean the coils. 
    
    But also try defrosting the unit. Sometimes ice builds up under the 
    freezer compartment and blocks the circulation of cold air thru the 
    rest of the unit. This is also true of suposedly frost free freezers.
    There is atimer that actually turns on a set of heater coils that
    does the defrosting This may be gone or out of sync.
    
    If that doesn't work then check to see that the fans that recirculate 
    the cold air from the freezer to the fridge are working.
    
    All are cheap but not necessarily easy DIY fixes.
   

    I second the recommendation in .2
    
    
    Our fridge wasn't working all that well, Ice cream was
    melting/refreezing and stuff like that.
    
    We took everything out of the freezer, took the bottom off and found
    that the entire cooling fin assembly was frozen solid.  A hair dryer,
    and a couple of hours later, all the ice was gone.
    
    Thing works perfect now.  It was a frost-free unit, but it looked
    like the drain plugs in the freezer got plugged, and it was all
    over from there.
    
    -bill

    Does anyone have any advice for the _opposite_ problem?  We have 
    a Sears (no flames!) 22 cu. ft. frost-free side-by-side unit 
    (.lt. 2 years old).  The coils in the back are sealed inside 
    (thus allowing a closer fit to the wall).
    
    Our's is TOO cold, no matter how warm we set it... the owner's
    manual (not surprisingly...) doesn't help...
    
    Help?
    
    /donna
    

    Would a frozen cooling fin assembly cause the TOO COLD problem
    or just the TOO WARM problem?  Is this something we should try?
    
    /d
    

    If it's a frost-free model and the defrost cycle timer is dead,
    it might be the cause of your problem.  The timer is fairly
    easy to replace, once you find it. 

    RE: .5
    
    Well, .3 snuck in before I finished writing my reply.
    
    The frozen fin assembly is for a TOO WARM case. 
    
    On the too cold side, I'd suspect that your thermostat is on the
    blink.  If it's not imbedded in the foam (depending on how old the
    thing is) you may be able to replace it.
    
    One thing for sure, you're condenser/cooling assembly is working
    fine!
    
    
    -bill

If the frig is too warm, but the freezer is fine, I would suspect the
control that regulates the frig temp.  I believe that what it does
is regulate the relative amount of freon going to the frig as opposed
to the freezer. You normally have to adjust this to your own frig
use habits... ie: if you open the freezer once for every ten times
you open the frig, you have setting 'A', and if 5 times for every 10,
use setting 'B', etc. Perhaps something bumped into this control, giving
the freezer too high a percentage of the freon, or perhaps the control
and/or its valve is broken. Not sure how you can verify this, but have
you played with the control to see what effects, if any, it had? If none
then it is broken. If very little, but some effect, then perhaps a coil
got bent in the refrigerator line... are any exposed? Was the frig recently
moved or bumped into?

    We had the problem that the refrigerator section got too warm. 
    There was too much ice buildup between the freezer section and the
    fridge section which meant that the defrost was not working.  I
    replaced all the components of the defrost:  timer, defrost heaters,
    and defrost thermostat.  Not all of the components went at the same
    time, by the way.  The most elusive problem to find was the
    malfunctioning defrost thermostat.  The way the defrost cycle works 
    is the timer turns on the defrost heaters and turns off the compressor 
    every 12 hours.  The heaters heat up until the defrost thermostat
    shuts them off.  The heater cycles on and off during the defrost cycle 
    to melt the ice buildup on the freezer coils.  The thermostat protects 
    the freezer coils from overheating.  Now, if the defrost thermostat
    isn't working correctly (turning off too soon) or the timer doesn't 
    function right, there won't be sufficient defrost and ice builds up.  
    The ice can build up between fridge and freezer preventing the fridge
    from getting cold.  Also found that if the defrost doesn't work,
    ice can build up around the drain so that water starts to drip onto
    the floor.  Of course, if the heaters are open circuit, they won't 
    heat up.  
 
    If you find ice buildup, you can temporarily get the fridge cold
    again by getting rid of the ice.  Watch to see if ice builds up
    again over a varying period depending on how poorly the defrost is
    working.  If the defrost is not working correctly, I would replace
    all the defrost components at once.  The most expensive item is
    the timer, about $20, but it's such a nuisance figuring out what
    is wrong and getting into the freezer to replace a part, it's worth 
    it to do it all at once. 
    
    If that's your problem  ;^}
        
    
    
    
    
    
        
    So if you find ice buildup, I would suspect the defrost cycle. 
    
    

    Well, I went home last night armed with all of your suggestions
    (except .8, which was entered today) and dived in.  Here's
    what I did and what I found:

    After emptying the freezer and unplugging the fridge, I unscrewed
    the bottom of the freezer compartment to see what I could see.
    Besides being filthy, there wasn't much there.  There was a
    large piece of styrofoam that didn't lift out.  There was no
    ice.

    The styrofoam ran almost the full width (leaving about 1/2
    inch either side), was flush with the front and stopped about
    three inches short of the back.  In that three inch space,
    running nearly the full width of the freezer, was a slightly
    concave piece of sheet metal.  That is, it appeared to be a
    channel of some sort.  Slightly right of center in the channel
    was a hole (that was clearly meant to be there).  Anybody want
    to tell me what that hole is for?

    What was disconcerting was that in that channel, at the hole,
    I found lots of pieces of broken glass.  They were all clearly
    from the same thing.  They appeared to be very old glass and
    were shaped such that one would guess that what it looked like
    before breaking was a glass tube, about 1/2 inch diameter,
    with lines (as if they were for measurement) drawn or etched
    around the tube every 1/8 inch or so.  Any idea what that might
    be?

    I cleaned out the glass and everything else.  I saw nothing
    there resembling a fan, so I put it back together.  Then I
    took off the plastic piece attached to the back wall of the
    freezer that contained the dial for setting the freezer
    temperature.  The plastic piece, with the dial, is shaped like
    this:

    +----------------------------------------------------+
    |                                                    |
    |                  min     max                       |
    |                      ***                           |
    |                     *****                          |
    |                      ***                           |
    |                                                    |
    +--------------------------+                         |
                               |                         |
                               |                         |
                               |                         |
                               |                         |
                               |                         |
                               +-------------------------+

    Behind the square portion at the right is the fan.  Behind
    the rectangular portion to the left of the dial is a hole in
    the back wall which I assume leads to the holes in the roof
    of the refrigerator compartment.  The dial is about as low
    tech as they come.  It is a plastic damper, essentially.  Point
    to "max" and the plastic piece is vertical.  Point to "min"
    and it is horizontal.  No ice.  No apparent problem.  The fan
    spins fine.

    I put this back together and then attacked the back and underside
    of the fridge with the vacuum and did a very thorough cleaning.
    Plugged the sucker back in, set the dial in the freezer to
    halfway between min and max, set the dial in the fridge on
    max, and went to bed.

    I just talked to my wife.  She says that it appears to be a bit
    colder but not anywhere near where it ought to be.  The freezer,
    fortunately, is still keeping things frozen.

    Anybody out there think they can tell me the names of the things
    I described and what their functions are?  Anybody want to
    speculate on what the broken glass might have been?  There
    doesn't seem to be any way for an object to get there without
    unscrewing the floor of the freezer compartment, implying that
    it "belongs" to the freezer itself.

    Sid (who obviously doesn't know much about refrigerator/freezers)

    The hole in the back of the freezer is the drain for the melted
    ice to go.  There is some kind of tray where that water is collected
    outside the fridge to evaporate.  
    
    The glass tube pieces sound like the protection for the defrost
    heater coils, but I am at a loss to explain the markings you describe.
    
    You mention the fan, but you don't say whether it's working or not.
    When you close the door, the light should go out and the fan should
    go on.  I'm not sure if the fan runs if the compressor is running.

    >     The glass tube pieces sound like the protection for the defrost
    >     heater coils, but I am at a loss to explain the markings you describe.

    Is it necessary to replace the glass?  Would the loss of that
    protection explain the poor cooling in the fridge?  If there
    were more glass in the hole (blockage), might that explain
    the problem?
    
    >     You mention the fan, but you don't say whether it's working or not.

    I just checked.  It's working.  When I push the button (that
    the door pushes when closed) the fan starts whirring.

    Sid (learning more every day)

Let's review a bit.  

A common approach to a frost-free refrigerator is to cool the freezer
portion and then to bleed off some of that cold air to cool the
refrigerator portion.  Therefore, you should have a bonafide thermostat
somewhere (often in the refrigerator), and there should be a "low tech"
control that is essentially controls the flow of air in the channel
between the freezer and the refrigerator (that control is often in the
freezer).  There may be two channels--one for feed and one for return.  

If the freezer is cold enough (<= 0� F), you can probably assume the
defrost portion is okay.  Then if the refrigerator is too warm, the air
flow through the channel is not adequate (the channel is obstructed by
food or in improperly set or broken "low tech" control, or the fan is
not working properly)  Try setting the control to max (largest airflow),
opening the refrigerator and pushing the light button.  When the fan
comes on, is there a blast of cold air through the channel?  If not,
check it out.  If so, check out a return channel somewhere to see if it 
is blocked by food or something.

Hope this helps,

Alex

    re: .13
    
    >           . . .        Try setting the control to max (largest airflow),
    > opening the refrigerator and pushing the light button.  When the fan
    > comes on, is there a blast of cold air through the channel?  If not,
    > check it out.  If so, check out a return channel somewhere to see if it 
    > is blocked by food or something.
       
    I just called home and had my wife run this little diagnostic.
    Sho' nuff, the fan comes on but no cold air comes out the hole
    in the fridge.  I'll be probing (I'm not sure with what) the
    channel tonight.
    
    The description you gave fits my fridge to a tee.  You must
    admit, however, that it is somewhat counterintuitive.  That
    is, the control in the fridge determines how much cold is
    generated in the freezer, and the control in the freezer
    determines how much cold is generated in the fridge.  Sheesh!
    
    Thanks for the analysis and suggestions.  I'll report back
    tomorrow.
    
    Sid

    Well, I'm no expert but I'll stick my neck out anyway....my husband
    fixed a friend's fridgerator a couple of years ago that had the
    same exact symptoms.  (freezer was fine, cold box wasn't cold enough)
    Turned out to be a burnt-out defrost heater coil.  The thing from
    your note that reminded me of this was the broken glass tube. 
    He found broken glass in my friend's freezer also.  The glass tube 
    should surround the heater coil...is the coil there and intact?
    It wasn't too expensive or difficult to replace.  Sorry if I'm not
    of very much help.  

    Well, the plot sickens.  I'm totally committed now.  My kitchen
    looks like an an appliance parts store.
    
    I hope to be replacing the heating element today.  It is one
    piece, glass sheathed, with rubber nipples on either end and
    sits in a channel directly below the evaporator.  It was held
    in by a couple of C shaped clips.
    
    I will have to snip the wire at the rubber nipples and splice
    the new element in.  Is it necessary to solder the splice or
    is just taping it good enough?
    
    After calling appliance parts/repair places this morning, I
    found that about everyone in town gets their stuff from one
    of two parts stores (I'm in Colorado Springs, so try to send
    me to Spag's :-)).  Both of them say they've heard of Coronado
    but had no reference books that would indicate the exactly
    correct replacement part from the model number of my fridge.
    
    They both said I could measure the channel that it fits into
    and they'd get me something I could use.  However, the wattage
    varies from 425 to over 600 and there was indication I could
    find on the busted element (or wires) as to what would be correct
    here.  Would it be dangerous to take a chance on getting the
    wrong wattage element?
    
    The (ballpark) prices ranged from $22-$25 at one place to $32-$35
    at the other.  Guess where I'm going?
    
    Also, I now know why there were the "markings" on the glass.
    The heating element is a spring inside the glass.  The marks
    were obviously made by the spring.
    
    If you've followed me this far, I have another question.  Mounted
    on the back wall is what looks like a place for two fuses.
    There are no fuses there, however, and nothing that appears
    to provide continuity for the conductors attached to the ends.
    
    I have been using a book I got at the library as a reference
    and it's been real good so far.  Of the five books on appliance
    repair that were in at the Public Library, this one is definitely
    the best. So FYI, it is:
    
    	Complete Guide to Home Appliance Repair
    	by Evan Powell with Robert P. Stevenson
    	A Popular Science Book
    
    Anyway, I'm forging ahead.  I'm going to replace the heater
    and put the thing back together, plug it in, and see what happens.
    
    Sid

    Sid,
    
    Stop.  Find out the exact replacement of the heater.  If you put
    the wrong wattage in there you're asking for trouble.  Too little
    won't do the job and too much may damage the coils, mounting, and
    whatever else is back there.  Not to mention that the wiring leading
    to the heater was designed for a specific wattage.
    
    Find the nameplate of the refrigerator and then track down where
    it was built.  They must be able to tell you what the replacement
    parts should be (if they're still in business).
    
    As far as connections, I'd use crimping as the method and then seal
    them in that liquid plastic goop that comes in a can and solidifies
    after about 20 minutes.  That goop can be had in Spag's and is also
    used for putting plastic coating on things like tools, etc.

    I stopped.  My wife called me and said she "just happened to
    be looking through the classified ads and noticed..."  Such
    confidence!  However, I decided to do some more calling around
    to places that claim to buy and sell reconditioned appliances.
    
    I got a guy on the phone who knew the exact model of my
    refrigerator and who has the correct heater: 550 watt, $24.95.  
    I'm going to go over there this afternoon.  I asked him about
    the splice and he also said it's not necessary to solder it.
    Just crimp and seal it.
    
    I haven't yet mentioned this to my wife, who I believe is leaning
    heavily towards replacing the fridge, so I can't say for sure
    what will happen.
    
    It's like my father told me:  "You're mother and I never argue.
    But when we do, I always have last words.  And they are,
    'Yes,dear.'"
    
    Sid    :-)

    Over the last several weeks, I have been having a great deal of
    difficulty with a refrigerator door. At first, is didn't seem
    to be sealing well. I examined the gasket and notice a tear, so
    I assumed that it was not able to "grab" well enough to hold
    the door tightly shut, so .... I installed a new gasket which
    appeared to work well for a day or two, but now I have even
    less of a seal, mostly on the lower half of the door.
    
    I obviously let the door warp out of shape while I installed the
    new gasket, but since I did this work on a flat & level surface,
    I don't know what my next step should be.
    
    Any ideas on how to straighten my door?
    
    
    Thanks
    
            rfh

    I ran into this a couple of months ago.  It's more likely that your
    hinges loosened than the door actually warped.  Take the door off
    the hinges and reinstall the hinges, making sure the bolts are tight.
    
    Worked for me.
    
    				Steve

    What type of refrigerator is it? A few years ago, my GE had a door
    problem which turned out to be caused by the closing cam (a small
    piece of metal on the lower hinge) cracking in half, allowing the
    door to close out of position.
    
    Eric
    

    Many thanks for all the advice in the previous replies.  I
    picked up the glass-sheathed heater late Friday afternoon,
    installed it, put the whole thing back together, and everything
    appears to work like a champ.
    
    I can't declare it a complete success until some time has passed
    and the unit remains frost-free, but I am optimistic.  And
    I learned a helluva lot about refrigerator/freezers.
    
    Total cost:  $ 19.11, including tax  :-)
    
    Sid

        I had a similar door warp problem on my refrigerator when I fixed
        the seal.  I got it back in shape by loossening all of the screws
        that hold the interior plastic shell and seal in place, pulling
        the warp out of the door (with the door in place), and tightening
        the screws.  It still seals fine after several years of use. 

    If the refrigerator is not properly leveled, the cabinet can distort
    resulting in a poor seal around the door.
    
    - Rich
    

    
    Well, a couple of weeks went by and then the fridge started
    to get warm again.  So, I opened it all up and sure enough
    it was iced up.  This time I went a little deeper, however.
    
    I found the defrost timer that a few of you mentioned.  They
    hid it real well.  It's mounted on a side of the fridge so
    that it can't be seen.  I found it by taking off the protection
    plate that covers the bottom quarter of the back of the fridge,
    where the compressor is.  Then I ran my hand along the wires
    under the fridge until they ended at the timer.
    
    The timer has a small motor in it.  There is a small window
    in the front of it (which you only get to see once you unscrewed
    it from the inside wall and pulled it out) that lets you view
    the flywheel.  The flywheel should be turning all the time.
    It turns very fast, however, and you can't always tell if it's
    turning unless you unplug the fridge to let it slow down.
    
    Anyway, mine didn't turn.  I called the manufacturer (Paragon
    Electric of Two Rivers, Wisconsin) and they were very helpful.
    The bottom line was, of course, that the defrost timer was shot.
    
    I found a replacement locally (for a cool $36.95) and installed
    it today.  Flywheel spins like a champ.  I set it to defrost
    immediately (there's a control on the back that lets you do
    that) and the compressor shut off immediately and stayed off
    for fifteen minutes, which is what it's supposed to do.  Then
    the defrost cycle ends and the compressor kicks back in.
    
    Thinking back, I don't think the compressor had shut off in
    weeks.  Now it comes on for a while and then stops.  I think
    it may actually be fixed.  The fridge is cold again.  We'll
    see how it is in a couple weeks.
    
    Sid

    Maybe some of you appliance mavens could help...
    
    We're in the market for a new fridge, not wanting to take our current
    one with us when we move (down the street) next month.  Why?  Because
    it's got several things wrong with it.  It's a 1977-ish Sears
    (Coldspot?) and if anyone knows who built it, I'd appreciate knowing
    -- so I don't buy another!
    
    Problem one:  The temperature is too cold.  With the thermostat
    just below "1", the main compartment tends to freeze things.  A
    minor annoyance, perhaps, but it's quite hard to modulate and still
    uneven (ice shows up in the back of the lower shelves).
    
    Bigger problem:  It floods.  I know there's supposed to be a drain,
    but I can't figure out where it is to clean it out.  The bottom
    (outside) tray is dry, so it isn't filling up, but the area under
    the crispers has to be hand-emptied every few weeks.  This happened
    on a 1972-vintage GE that I used to have, too, so I know it's a
    common problem.
    
    Problem three:  Every hour or so, it makes a loud THUD, sounding
    like a brick falling off a top shelf onto a wood floor, for no
    particular reason.  It just does it.  It took a while to figure
    out it was coming from the refrigerator!  (sounds like the top,
    too; it's a top-freezer.)
    
    Any clues about how to clean out the drain?  I'm leaning towards
    a Whirlpool or Raytheon for the new house (GE needs more side clearance
    than I've got) but Whirlpool now makes Sears and I don't want the
    same problems all over again...
         fred

    
>    Problem one:  The temperature is too cold.  With the thermostat
>    just below "1", the main compartment tends to freeze things.  A

This sounds like a defective thermostat.  This is the device which determines
when the frig goes on and when it goes off.  IF something is getting to
cold and its not supposed to be that cold this would be my first choice
for the problem.
    
>    Bigger problem:  It floods.  I know there's supposed to be a drain,
    but I can't figure out where it is to clean it out.  The bottom

With frost free frigs there is a defrost coil and a small drip pan
under the coils (in a top freezer the coils are probably mounted behind
the back wall of the freezer.  A fan blows the moist air across the coils
and the moisture in the air condenses on the coils (voila, the coil
frosts up).  Now there is a timer which cycles whenever the frig is running
and every so many hours of running time it goes into defrost mode.  Here
the frig is prevented from coming on and power is applied (through a 
thermostat on the heating coil) to heat the freezer coil and melt the
water.  The water collects in the drip pan and then passes through a
tube down to the evaporation tray in the bottom of the refrigerator.
Speaking from experience the the water is overflowing
or leaking from the drip pan.  Most probable cause is  because there is a 
clog in the hole that leads from the drip pan to the hose or the hose
itself.  The clog could
be a piece of crud (I found tin foil in ours that made its way from the freezer
to the coil (via the fan) or it could be ice because the defrost cycle
is not making it all the way through the cycle either because the timer
isn't working correctly, the thermostat is crapping
out or the heater coil itself isn't melting completely all the frost.
To find out what may be the cause is not difficult if you have any mechanical
apptitude at all.  Pulling off the back cover of the freezer compartment
should reveal the coil, the entry point for the drain  and the cause of 
the clog.  Passing water down the pan hole can reveal if the hose
is clogged.  Repairing is no big deal if a part is bad and parts are not 
that expensive (timers run about $40, thermostats about $4 and new coils
could be anywhere from $12-40 depending upon your model).

    
>    Problem three:  Every hour or so, it makes a loud THUD, sounding
    like a brick falling off a top shelf onto a wood floor, for no
    particular reason.  It just does it.  It took a while to figure
    out it was coming from the refrigerator!  (sounds like the top,
    too; it's a top-freezer.)

Does this happen when the thing is running or when it shuts off.  Ours
makes this kind of noise when the compressor kicks off and has been
doing this for 10 years.  I suspect that this is not a problem but
thats a guess only.

Well, hope this info helps.

    I may be able to offer some assistance with the drain problem.
    We have a tired old Sears refrigerator from about 1977 too.  Is
    yours harvest gold too? %^)
    
    I haven't cleaned the drain myself but "supervised" as my husband
    did it.  There is a little plastic cup-shaped thing hidden behind
    the temperature controls.  I think you need a screwdriver to remove
    the cover.  Just squeeze the sides of the cup and it will come out.
    
    Oh, we also get the loud thud.

    re:.2
    Is this the temperature control on the top of the main compartment?
    That's where it is on my 19cf model; the light bulb is nearby. 
    The plastic frammis comes off by squeezing, and is filled with plastic
    foam; I wondered if it was part of the temperature problem.
    
    From .1 I infer that the drip pan with the clogged drain hole is
    reached via the freezer.  From .2 in infer that it may be at the
    top of the main compartment.  Am I confused?  (That's obvious!)
         fred
    
    (btw, the thud is not the compressor cycle; it's totally random.
    As .2 implies, it may be a design defect.  WHO BUILT THIS THING?)

    Hmmm.  Maybe our refrigerators aren't the same.  The cup in ours
    is behind the main controls in the main compartment.  Now that I've
    thought about it, I think the plastic part for the controls comes
    off and then there is some sort of other covering that has to be
    unscrewed to get at the cup.  The cup is in there amongst all the
    wiring, etc. but I don't recall any foam.
    
    If your refrigerator is like ours, the cup is hidden in such a way
    that it is obvious that the manufacturer expected to generate a
    lot of dollars from service calls for this problem!  If I hadn't been
    told about the cup, I probably wouldn't have found it.  
    
    Here are some things to help you determine if they're the same:
      1.  Check for little water drips just below the controls.  If
          there are some, there is probably a cup hidden in there
          somewhere.
      2.  Look for a hose on the back of your refrigerator that leads
          into the drip pan.  Ours entered the back just behind the
          control panel.
          
    I will try to remember to check mine tonight and make sure I am
    remembering the set up right.
    Ruth

    The old propane-fired Servel refrigerator at a friend's summer
    place (no electricity) has failed.  This is an old unit, the
    refrigerant is ammonia.  Judging from the stinging of my contact
    lenses when we walked in, I would guess that the ammonia has
    leaked.
    
    Does anyone have any experience with these, or with their modern
    equivalents?  Is it likely to be repairable (scheduling repair
    visits isn't easy -- we're ar work in Mass. when they want to
    drop in up there in N.H.)??????  Worthwhile?????????
    
    dq
    

    
    
    If those amonia types are the same that come in campers, then yes,
    they are repairable but expensive. They are even more expensive
    to replace! Have you considered bringing the unit in for repair?
    An RV dealer may be able to repair it. (they make "house calls")
    
    A happy camper
    

    Having checked the key word appliances, the closest thing I could
    find to my question was bad tasting ice cubes, so I guess a new
    note is in order.
    
    My 3 year old GE 18cf refridge/freezer has developed a TERRIBLE
    smell this summer.  We have done all the standard things....
    looked into all those tupperware containers way in the back of the
    fridge and those plastic bags full of frost and unrecognizable things
    in the freezer, throwing most of it, washing the entire fridge and 
    freezer out, puting new boxes of baking soda in, etc.  The smell
    continues to get stronger.  It does not seem to come from any food
    source, as I left the freezer door open for two hours after cleaning
    and the let the ventilating fan run.  10 minutes after shutting
    the door, the smell was as bad as ever when you open the freezer.
    We called the GE hotline and they said to try activated charcoal.
    We did, it still smells.
    
    I don't know what to try next. It is a very unpleasant, acrid, bitter
    smell.  My guess is is has something to do with the recent unusually
    humid weather and the defrosting/ventilation system.   If so, it
    has probably happened to others.  Any one with a similiar experience
    out there?  Any solutions, suggestions?  Anybody want to buy a fridge?
                                             
    Thanks in advance
    -dj-
    

    Is stuff growing in the drain pan underneath the fridge???
    And you *DO* have baking soda boxes open in both the fridge and
    the freezer???
    Ric

    Most frost-free refrigerator/freezers have vents in the freezer
    compartment either in the floor or at floor level in the walls.
    It is very easy to spill food into this area.  It is virtually
    impossible to clean it up.  It's worth looking into, though it
    shouldn't result in the strong smell you're getting (it is, after
    all, in the freezer), and I haven't the first idea of how to clean
    up that area if it is the source of your problem.
    
       Gary

    Have you pulled out the 'fridge and looked behind/under it?

    Try to find out if the drain line into the drip pan is clooged.
    This happened to us a while back and it smelled awful. If it is
    clogged you will have to blow the clog out. I'll leave the mechanics
    of that up to you.
    
    
    TPV

    We had a horrible smell every time the refridgerator kicked
    on.  After cleaning it all out, moving it and finally taking
    the back off, we found a dead mouse up underneath.  Might
    want to take a look...
    

	"Acrid" suggests something other than mold and old food.

	It suggests something burning, or being heated.  Flannery's
	(.5) dead mouse must have been sitting on the motor or some 
	coils that heated up.  In that case, just wait a few months,
	and it'll dry out!

	If it's a frost-free, could it be something lodged against 
	the defrost heater?  Maybe some kind of stuff grew on the 
	evaporator, and gets fried when the heater comes on.

	Did you say the smell is noticeable when the fridge is closed,
	or is it only inside?

	Look around underneath.  Be careful poking around under
	refrigerators!!  Sometimes, there are exposed electrical
	connections.

	Regards, Robert.

    This is a little off the subject but not by much.  Has anyone had
    the experence of very bad smelling ice cubes.  Whenever I make ice
    cubes from my tape water (I live in Hudson MA) and pick them up
    to place in the glass my hands smell from the water.  Once in the
    drink they don't smell or make the drink taste any different.
    
    I haven't decided if it's the water or the fridge that causing the
    smell.  I need to try out some different water and report back.
    
    					Bart Lasky 

>    Is stuff growing in the drain pan underneath the fridge???
>    And you *DO* have baking soda boxes open in both the fridge and
>    the freezer???

	I clean the pan regularily, and yes to the soda, and now 
activated charcoal as well.

>    Most frost-free refrigerator/freezers have vents in the freezer
>    compartment either in the floor or at floor level in the walls.
>    It is very easy to spill food into this area.  It is virtually
>    impossible to clean it up.  

	I thought of that, but could see how to dismantle the 
lining of the freezer to gat at it.  Does this exit vent go to 
the drain line, and thus let me pour something through it?

>    Have you pulled out the 'fridge and looked behind/under it?

	Yes, and vacuumed and recovered a few lost marbles while 
I was at it too.

>    Try to find out if the drain line into the drip pan is clooged.
>    This happened to us a while back and it smelled awful. If it is
>    clogged you will have to blow the clog out. I'll leave the mechanics
>    of that up to you.
 	
	I did disconnect the line on the (external)backside of the fridge 
and poured soda water through it, no problem.  Do you mean this 
or inside the fridge?  Couldn't see how to get to it. 


>	"Acrid" suggests something other than mold and old food.


>	Did you say the smell is noticeable when the fridge is closed,
>	or is it only inside?

	'Acrid' may not be the best description, but I was was 
groping, to clearly distinguish between this smell and old tuna 
or sour milk smells.  Yes, it is only noticeable inside, mostly 
the freezer, and moslty when the defrost fan is running.

>    This is a little off the subject but not by much.  Has anyone had
>    the experence of very bad smelling ice cubes.  Whenever I make ice

	Not so far off track as you think, Bart.  A couple of 
monthes ago, my only complaint was a slight smell and taste in my 
ice cubes, like when they've been in the freezer too long and 
begun to evapoate in the tray, but they were brand newly made!
Now if I open the freezer door and stick my head in for a look 
around when the fan kicks in, it blows my socks off!  

	Any more ideas before I give up?  Can't fix it if I don't 
know whats broke! Boy I hate to call a repair man, cuz they don't 
know either, and charge me $40 to ask me all the things you folks 
just did.

-dj-

    Re: .8
    
>>    Most frost-free refrigerator/freezers have vents in the freezer
>>    compartment either in the floor or at floor level in the walls.
>>    It is very easy to spill food into this area.  It is virtually
>>    impossible to clean it up.  

>	I thought of that, but could see how to dismantle the 
>lining of the freezer to gat at it.  Does this exit vent go to 
>the drain line, and thus let me pour something through it?

    I doubt it.  It's intended for air, not liquids.  But then, I don't
    really know much about it, other than it exists.  You might call
    the manufacturer to see if they have an opinion on that part.
    
       Gary

    .8:
    
    Did you say that the freezer has the same odor as the refrigerator,
    but stronger?  That might suggest that the problem is in the freezer,
    and spilling over into the 'frig (maybe thanks to the workings of
    the "frost-free" mechanism).  Might be useful to empty the freezer
    into a cooler (or two) and scrutinize it carefully.
    
    Dick

    re: -1
    Good point - It may in the freezer. If you remove everything from
    the freezer, you still have to remove the bottom plate to get at
    the cooling/heating coils. Be VERY VERY careful how you touch the
    coils. You can break them real easy. If something spilled and leaked
    into the coils, that could be your problem.
    

    We had a similar problem, smell in the FREEZER section, especially
    bad when the fan was on. It turned out to be some bad food on the
    bottom shelf of the REFRIDGERATOR section near the back, right in
    front of an air intake vent. This fridge apparrently takes air in
    thru there, cools it and blows it in the freezer section. 
    
    So look carefully at ALL vent openings for bad food or spills.
    
    Cb

    .last several:
    
    One of the early steps in debugging is determining the proper function
    of various modules -- and also how they are connected and how they
    can interact.
    
    Dick

    I just recently picked up a new refrigerator.  It is a
    White-Westinghouse, single door model.  There is a 1 cubic foot
    freezer in the bottom right right side of the refrig.  Going from
    the top right, where the freezer control is, down to the freezer
    itself is a 2" x 6" shaft.  On the outside of this shaft there is
    condensation that freezes when it gets down to the top of the freezer.
    What's happening to cause this.  The refrig. was a display model
    so I didn't get much for paperwork.
    Also, mounted between the side of the freezer and the vegetable
    draw of the refrig is a lever.  When I push this lever down, it
    opens up a 1" diameter hole that goes somewhere under the freezer
    itself.  When I pull it up, it blocks the hole.  Anyone know what
    this is for?
    
    I hope what I wrote is not too hard to follow.
    
    Chris D.

    The hole you describe is a passage from the freezer into the reefer
    to allow a little extra cold air to that area I think the idea is
    to help keep meat fresh longer. However in mine it allows too much
    cold air which is good for the meat but freezes the lettuce and
    other veggies down there.
    
    
    Hope this helps,-J
    

    Have you considered the possibility that the fanmoter is overheating
    or slowly dying? (clue = smell gets strong when it runs)

    Is the outside of the shaft outside outside of the frig?  Some
    refrigerators have a switch which is usually labeled something like
    "dry/humid".  In the humid position, there are heating coils in
    the case of the frig which get activated when the timer goes to
    the defrost cycle.  In the dry position, coils don't get energized.
    You might notice condensation in the hot, humid weather of the summer
    if the switch is in the dry position, so switch to humid if it bothers
    you.  Naturally, you use more power in the humid position.

    We once had a smelly fridge. Turned out it was leaking whatever
    it is (freon?) that it's charged with.
    
    'Flatulent' describes the odor fairly accurately.
    
    Have you noticed any changes in the run cycle? Is it running more
    often than it used to??
    
    Edd

    Any one out there recharge your auto AC and ever get a whiff of
    Freon?  Does it have a odor? and what does it smell like?  
                                              
    Freezer is still keeping the ice cream tho.

      Freon has no odor.  If you do smell it, you are probably smelling
    the oil that is added to freon for lubrication of the compressor.
    At least auto AC's have this oil added.  I've charged auto AC's
    a few times and have never even noticed the smell of the oil. BTW, 
    you don't want to smoke or have any type of fire in the presence of 
    freon.  Freon becomes toxic when exposed to combustion.
    
    -Jim

    
    	Freon is also a carcinogen!  I'd pay someone else to do it.

    Freon a carcinogen?  That's news!  If it's true.
    
    Freon (chlorofluorocarbons) used to be used as the propellant in
    aerosol cans, and is still used in some manufacturing processes.
    It was viewed as totally nontoxic.  It is being phased out because
    it rises to the ozone layer, breaks down into free chlorine and
    that destroys the ozone, causing increased ultraviolet (=skin cancer)
    on the surface of the earth.
    
    Now that could be viewed as causing cancer, but not to the person
    handling it!

    It(freon) also being released in quanity into the atmosphere by
    certain DEC facilitys as part of Mfg. processes.
    

    
    	Sorry, guys.  I was wrong.  Freon is not a carcinogen.
    
    	Just went back and read the label on a can of Freon.  The stuff
    we get also has some nitromethane and methanol mixed in.  The warnings
    include "Inhalation of concentrated vaopors can be fatal", "...cause
    blindness", "...heart irregularities, unconciousness, or death",
    and a cute little note that it may irritate or dry sensitive skin.
    
    	Whew... Makes me feel alot better to know cancer ain't one of
    the problems.
    

re: .21
    
>   Freon is not a carcinogen.
    
>   "Inhalation of concentrated vaopors can be fatal", "...cause
>    blindness", "...heart irregularities, unconciousness, or death",
>    and a cute little note that it may irritate or dry sensitive skin.
    
Somehow I don't feel a whole lot better about Freon.

Clay    

    
    
    "DRY SKIN, HEART IRREGULARITIES, UNCONCIOUSNESS, OR DEATH" 
    
    All of the above symptons can be attributed to any number of household
    products such as chlorine bleach and amonia. 
    
    Freon is on of the most inert and inactive of the cleaner/solvents
    available and is generally considered to be non-toxic and non-caustic,
    non-reactive, non-anything EXCEPT when it is released into the
    atmosphere and combines with OZONE to start the clhorine/oxygen/freon
    cycle.
    
    The dry skin is a natural result of any degreaser or solvent. The
    nitromethane and methanol are the products that will casue the major
    medical problems even with a meoderate exposure. Like any other
    gas, in sufficient quantities Freon will displace oxygen in the
    atmosphere, - thats why it's cousin HALON is used as a fire
    extinguisher in computer rooms - it also leaves little or no residue
    and does not react with other chemicals/materials which is also
    why it is used.  If  you are really concerned with the use of Freon
    maybe you had better wuit drinking coffee out of styrofoam cups
    or buying macdonald hamburgers or having picnics using styrofoan=m
    plates or sitting on your sofa with the foam cushions orusing your
    wlakman head set with the little foam pads . Freon is the agent
    used to create the bubbles inn the foam in most of those and hundreds
    of other products. For more information on Freon and the dec policy
    that is going into effect check GUMMO::ENVIROMENT.

      I didn't realize that HALON was in any way related to Freon but
    since you brought it up: HALON is also TOXIC when exposed to
    combustion. So, if you use HALON to put out a fire, get the heck
    out of there immediately afterward until the area has been well
    vented. I learned of this from a fire department that was testing
    out a HALON system in a computer room.  For the test, they used
    Freon. After the (successful) test, they refilled the system with
    HALON.  This test was being done so insurance could be taken out
    for the data center.  I don't know why they used Freon for the test
    but I assume it was cost.
    
    -Jim
    

    Freon is a generic term, because there are a few different types
    of freon (eg Freon 12, etc). In my previous life in medical research
    (1974-1976), I was involved in a study on the effects of Freon when
    it was used as a degreasing agent in PC board manufacturing, and
    lung problems. Certain types of freon, when inhaled as fumes (I
    don't remember which) were found to cause problems in the workers
    constantly exposed to it, and these problems were very difficult
    to diagnose because they didn't show up on standard lung tests.
    So if working with Freon (and I believe that air conditioner
    refrigerant is Freon-12), be careful, but don't go into panic mode
    quite yet.
    
    Eric

    
    
    RE: -.24 
    HALON does not turn toxic in combustion  it does displace the ogygen
    in the atmosphere. It also is big bucks, Around $20k for the smallest
    systems.
    
    RE: -.25
    Lung disorder from freon fumes has been closely related to emphasema.
    It seems that just like the skin - lung tissue will dry up when
    exposed o a solvennt and yes it does take a long time to happen
    and is hard to diagnose. 
    
    Agreed I would not panic yet.

    re: .26
    
      Maybe I misunderstood but I could have sworn that the fire marshall
    in charge of the test said that HALON as well as Freon was toxicin
    combustion.  When you say "...Around $20k for the smallest systems",
    you are referring to the complete system and not the recharge right?
    The system I was referring to was a HALON system but they used Freon 
    to test it out.
   
    -Jim
    

    And btw, Halon has recently been found to be a HUNDRED times worse
    than Freon in its ability to destroy upper-atmospheric ozone!
    
    In other words, it too may be history soon.
    
    Also btw, Freon might, like xerox, be a trademark (DuPont) that
    is abused as if it were generic; CFC is truly generic.  But I may
    be wrong on that one too.

     
    .-1  Right on all counts but one.
    
    Halon is more reactive to OZONE than Freon.
    
    Freon has been reduced to the level of a tradename rather than trade
   mark because of the common usage. (simmilar thing happened to one
    of the food wrap products)
    
    Halon is part of the CholorFlouroCarbon group of chemicals so it
    will also be history, but not as soon as the rest of the group.

    Halon does not actually replace the air but chemically reacts and
    bonds to the oxygen in the air thereby removing the oxygen from
    the area.  Fire requires oxygen in order to survive.  No oxygen, no
    fire.  
    
    If you are in a computer room and the halon system activates, leave
    the area.  If this is not possible, then go towards the floor. 
    There is more oxygen near the floor than at head/sholder
    level.  The best place to be is not in the halon area.

What can cause an interior refrigerator light socket to croak?  The socket
went bye-bye for no apparent reason.  I bought new lightbulbs and replaced
the old, but no luck.  The switch works fine as the other light operates 
as expected.

Anyone have a similar experience?  I'm wondering if it's a sign of something
a bit more serious.

rep

    
    Without more information, you really can't tell.  It could be ...
    
    	- a cracked socket
    	- a loose or broken wire to the socket
    		- or from the switch
    	- if the other light runs on a different circuit (another wire
          pair), then it could be the switch itself
    
    Recommendation : Take some time (and a couple of screwdrivers),
    open it up and look for something broken.  That's what I'd do.
    
    						Frank

    
    In my experience, it's probaly the switch- they have moving parts and
    they operate every time you open the door.
    
    1. make sure you have no power to the socket-, not just a new bulb that
    is also bad.Chek the socket with a voltmeter or try a bulb that you
    know is good.
    
    2. If no power to the socket- check the swicth- this is usually a lttle
    button that protrides from the door jamb. Pushing tyhe button IN opens
    the switch .UNPLUG the refrigerator when you remove the switch( they
    usually just pop out with a srewdriver)
    
    3. Check continuity across the switch with an ohmmeter- or, be verrryy
    careful and put a jumper across the two wires going to th switch,
    and plug ol'Betsy back in with a good bulb in the socket. If the light
    comes on, replace the switch. If it doesn't, you probably don't have
    power to the switch and now you will need a wiring diagram and/ or
    friend who can chase wiring. If the wiring ahs opened up in the
    insulkation between outer/inner panels- buy a flashlight
    
    4. Sometimes the condensation causes the spring (that causes the botton
    onm the switch to pop out and close the contacts) to fail- button seems
    to be stuck in- the switch is bad.
    
    
    
    I'd take bets that the switch, not the socket is bad.
    
    
    Dick
    

>    2. If no power to the socket- check the swicth- this is usually a lttle
>    button that protrides from the door jamb. Pushing tyhe button IN opens
>    the switch .UNPLUG the refrigerator when you remove the switch( they
>    usually just pop out with a srewdriver)
    
The button only switches the light on and off when the door is open, by
the way.  There's a concealed switch in the door hinges that bypasses it
when the door closes so the light stays on all the time when the door is
shut.  If you try and open the door a little to see in there, the hinge 
switch engages and the button switch shuts the light off again.  Just 
thought you'd like to know...
					>>>==>PStJTT

    re .3:
    
    Yeah, that little bugger got me once - broke so that the light stayed
    on all the time, even when the refrigerator was unplugged. 

    Be careful that the hinge switch doen't get shorted to the shredder
    power feed.  Next time you open the door there won't be anything
    left.

    Now hold on here.  I know many of you are joking.  Just for the
    record, there is only one switch and it shuts the light off when
    the door is closed.  Correct?
    
    So I can't tell a joke all the time.  Shoot me.
    
    Ed..
    

    
    				( only joking :-)

re: .6

First, let me say that it is an awful thing to put someone in a position 
of having to decide between letting you off the hook or sinking the 
gaff, but...

Yes, .3 is a gag based on a question that preceded Schrodinger's Cat by 
at least a couple of decades; i.e, does the light in the fridge REALLY 
go out when you close the door?

.4 is dead serious however...
						>>>==PStJTT

    
    
    
    	RE : The other note about refridge that is to warm.
    
    
    		THe auther said he had a GE refridge, what model was
    it? If it's the model with the electronic door with ice maker/crusher
    than get out your phone book and call the local GE authorized repair
    center and make an appointment to get the condenser replaced and
    the intire freon system refilled, FREE of CHARGE. It's a well known
    problem with these units. They have a special new condenser and
    that required a special lubricant in the freon. Unfortunatly the
    lubricant clogs up the coils and eventually no COLD. 
    
    		I've had my refridge for almost 4 years now and still
    no problems. But a co-worker had his for 2+ years and just had the
    service done, FREE of CHARGE. GE knows it's a problem and apparently
    will cover the repair out of waranty. Good luck...
    
    				...Dave
    

    
    This is continue discussion of note 3007.
    
    RE: .22
    
    You are right.  I cleaned up my refig. last eneving especially
    the radiator.  But it is still not cool.
    
    I just called the GE repair shop in Wilmington, MA.  They will come
    to look at today.
    
    I suppect the compressor in broken.  When I pull out the refig.
    I noticed there is a sticker on the back saying that it has a 
    rotary type compressor.  I remember it was in the media about
    GE's problem with this type of new compressor.  I thought it
    was in those refig. with french door.  Mine two years old refig.
    is 23 cubic top and down door type.  Anyway I hope they will fix
    it with no charge.
    
    The reason I supect it was the compressor problem is that the radiator
    is not even warm after turn it on for 20 minutes.  I agree that the
    chance of losing refrigenant is not so great because it is a closed
    system.                      
    
    
    

    
    The GE service man replace my refig's compressor and other related
    components free of charge.   They didn't have parts until four days later.
    They even offer me to rent a refig.
    
    It is their improperly designed/tested rotary compressor at fault.
    I have to say they are working hard to preserve GE's reputation.
    Good service.

		I did  what  had  to  be  the  most  common DIY jobs this 
	weekend and I probably made a lot more work for myself than I had 
	to.  The  DIY  job:    MOVING.  Now between my self and dozens of 
	friends, relatives and neighbors  I've  had  to  have  done  this 
	procedure at least 20-30 times.   But this time was just a little 
	different.    This  time  I  was    moving  only  one  item;    a 
	refrigerator.
		
		I have on occasion moved a few  refrigerators,  and  it's 
	pretty much the same process every time take the refrigerator and 
	put it in the back of the truck, pad it, tie  it  down,  and move 
	some  more stuff.  Well this time was a little different, because 
	it was  the  only  thing  I  was moving I had all the room in the 
	world and I  was going to lay the refrigerator on it's side.  But 
	for some reason I've  always  moved  refrigerators  standing  up.  
	Something I learned long ago  told  me  you  must always keep the 
	refrigerator up right.  Well I  had  to go through a lot of extra 
	work to make sure the thing was  tied  down properly so as not to 
	tip over in the back of the pick-up  truck.    This seemed like a 
	real waste of time not to mention gasoline because  of  the added 
	wind resistance of the refrige sticking above the cab.
	
		So  to  ask  my question, Finally.  Is there a  technical 
	reason why a refrigerator should not be transported on it's side?
	

	
*****>		Feel free to  use  this  topic  for any of your other DIY 
	MOVING questions. I didn't find a note so titled.
	
	
				...Dave
							
		Who refuses to make a long story short...			

    Yes, there is a reason why you move refrigerators standing up. 
    In the refrigerator is a chemical called Freon.  What I was told
    was that for every ten minutes a refrigerator is left on its side,
    you need to leave it 1 hour standing up before you can use it. 
    I think this is because the freon dispersses throughout the system
    and has to have time to recollect at some starting point.
    
    I was told this by a qualified refrigerator delivery person, so
    I assume he is correct.  I have always moved refrigerators and freezers
    standing up.
    
    Ed..
    

    The freon's not the problem with laying a refrigerator on its side.
    
    There is a very fine capillary tube in the system that can get blocked
    with lubricating oil if the unit is layed over.
    
    Being a capillary tube, it sometimes forces the oil further up the
    tube instead of draaining it out when you stand the unit back up.
    
    Refrigerant oil runs in the viscosity range of about 600. Regular
    motor oil is anywhere from 5 to 50 while gear lube is usually 90 to 120.
                                                                 
    So you can see why getting any reefer oil up the capillary tube
    would be a problem.
    

    Reply .2 has some good points. Two other possible problems. As
    previously mentioned, the compressor oil ends up not where it belongs.
    Also, often unless the shipping brackets have been replaced on the
    compressor, it can shift and damage the lines coming into it. The
    shock mounts are designed to support a vertical load, not a horizontal
    one.
    
    Eric (who had a moving company put an A/C unit on its side and then
    had th search the truck to find the shock mounting springs!)

    
    Ditto on reply .3 on the compressor shipping brackets. The compressor
    can rip right off the rubber mounts if the shipping bolts are not
    put back and the refrig. is layed on its side. Especially while
    on a bumpy ride on the back of a truck. Glad it wasn't my refrig.
    
    Bob
    
    
     

For more info on moving, see the notesfile [ALIEN,BEING]::CONSUMER (KP7).  They 
have a keyword directory similar to the one here, also at note 1111, and a 
specific keyword for movers_and_moving, at 1111.40

Paul

    I'm fantasizing about a self-sufficient house, or as near to that
    as is realistically possible.
    
    I'm looking for ideas, source books, or whatever on the idea of
    building to live ecologically and economically.
    
    For example, does anyone know how much you can expect from a solar
    house?  Are there any ecologially sound methods of producing your
    own electricity to run computers and like that, or is at least minimal
    reliance on comsumer electricity necessary?  I have heard about
    systems where shower water is drained to irrigate the lawn -- are
    there zoning or other problems with that sort of reuse of the water?
    
    Tips, pointers to other notes, book titles, etc. greatly appreciated!
    
    Sherry

    	You may want to look into underground houses. These are houses
    in which dirt covers 3 of the 4 sides (plus the roof). The 4th side 
    is usually mostly (if not all) windows so it is not as cave-like as 
    you might imagine.
    
    	The advantage in this is that when you get below the frost line
    (about 3' down in N.H.) the ground stays at a constant 55 degrees.
    This means that you don't need air conditioning in the summer and
    you only have to heat from 55 degrees to whatever is comfortable
    vs. whatever the outside temp is. Theoretically, if you leave the
    house in the winter with no heat on, you shouldn't have to worry
    about pipes freezing.
    
    	If you insure the window side is south facing with automatically
    opening/closing insulated curtains, it may provide you with enough
    passive solar so you wouldn't need to use much heat at all in the 
    winter. You reverse the cycle (i.e. curtains shut when sun comes out) 
    in the summer.
    
    	If you built a "U" shaped house with a pool in the middle and
    enclosed it, you'd be able to swim year round and would have a large
    body with which to store heat from the daylight hours. In this case,
    you could open the windows rather than shut them with the insulated
    curtain. You could also have a year round indoor garden.
    
    	If you added passive solar water heat for the warmer months
    and a wind-tubine, or better yet, a small hydro set-up if you had a
    running stream nearby, you'd by pretty close (if not completely)
    self sufficient.
    
    	In an underground, once you pour the foundation, you have most
    of the shell of the house up. This should equate to a low cost per
    sq. ft. to build house.

    	Ray

    	Another addition to .1. You may want to wire up your some of
    your lighting for 12 volts DC. You could then build a make shift
    wind mill using car alternators to charge the batteries that power
    some of your lights. There are also all kinds 12 VDC appliances
    including refrigerators.
    
    	In the case of the hydro-electric generator, I've been told
    if you produce more power than you use, the electric company has
    to buy it off you at their going rate. Depending on how much you
    generate, it may provide you with a small income that could go 
    towards maintaining your generator.
    
    	If electric costs keep rising, at some point home power generation
    is going to become a cost effective alternative to the local power
    company (especially if Seabrook comes on line).

    	Ray

    Some related topics to check out:
    
    1850	Earth bermed solar homes?
    2398	Turbine Power Sources

     Passive solar heated homes need not by a menagerie of gadgets that
    keep them running.
     Sound, common-sense approaches to siting, desgin, execution and
    construction can yeild an economical and comforatable home.
     My parents home built 10 years ago is sited on the south side of
    a hill, actually backing into the hills vertical somehwat. The home
    was built on a cinder block foundation and uses post and beam
    construction. The posts and beams are kiln dried pine with all the
    beams having been pre-cut and pre-finished offsite to facilitate
    assembly. Not a nail was used as all the posts and beams interlock
    by the use of keyed ends. This two story home (1500 sq. ft.) has
    two windows in the north wall, one in the kitchen and one in the
    bathroom. The roof has three skylights and there are more windows
    in the south, east and west walls. The south wall also has two sliding
    doors that open onto a deck across the front of the home. Insulation
    in the roof is an approximate r40 and in the walls an approximate
    r30. The exterior walls are vertical strips of rough cut pine staggered
    on top of each other. There is one electric base board heater
    in each bathroom. A Lakewood Cottager wood stove is the only source
    of heat in the home and in the coldest winter to date, has only
    required 4 cord of wood to maintain very comfortable temperaturs.
    Birch trees surrounding the home sheild it from the high summer
    sun and in the winter allow the low winter sun to shine in the windows
    in the south wall. On sunny days in the winter, there is no need
    to light the stove, and in many cases the windows must be opened
    to reduce the heat buildup inside. The interior is an open concept,
    with the second floor essentialy a large loft bedroom, hobby area and
    a small bedroom near the north wall.
     As my parents have the time and land to cut wood as required the
    cost to heat is essentialy the cost of gas and oil for the chainsaw.
     They found many good books at their local library before embarking
    on this excursion into home construction and also talked to many
    owners of log, owner-built, passive-solar heated homes.
     The only electric gadget that assists in the dispersion of heat
    is a ceiling fan. The home is cool in the summer and has really
    shown itself to be a comfortable success over the past 10 years.
     Hope you find this of some help and inspiration.
    Regards

Do you mean just energy self-sufficient or are you thinking of a broader
form of self-sufficiency?  The book "A Pattern Language" (*great* book
if you are planning an addition, a house, or a city) says that a family
of four can grow all their own vegetables on 1/10 acre.  Site the garden
on the south side of the house, of course.  If it is up against the house,
it will help cool the house on hot sunny days.  It is also very easy to
grow herbs in a home garden.

I should note that home-grown veggies taste a lot better than store bought
-- have you ever eaten sweet corn that was picked 1/2 hour before you
cooked it?  Yum!  And for tomatoes, there's absolutely no comparison --
the store bought ones are not only picked green, but they are special
varieties that can withstand 15 mph collisions in the mechanical pickers.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I'll be watching this one.  With the current "probable
    drought" in Eastern Massachusetts (I live in Worcester),
    I may be forbidden to water my lawn this summer.
    
    Ordinarily, I wouldn't mind, but....   with the Water Dept.
    mess left from digging up my front lawn last Fall (October?),
    several erosion spots in the back, one on the side, and a
    whole front banking that has been engulfing the sidewalk,
    I NEED to grow grass this year.  If I can't water the new
    stuff when it needs it, I may lose my whole anti-erosion
    project....
    
    So far, I have some fairly simple setups figured - like
    diverting my two downspouts to fill barrels (I have access
    to a bunch of 35-gallon plastic "barrels" with caps...)
    with rainwater, and use that as needed.  More elaborate
    ideas have crossed my mind.... using the roof to collect 
    rainwater into a cistern (my uncle used to live in eastern
    Virginia, and had such a setup....) for later use.  I'm not
    sure I'd use it to drink or cook with, but bathing and 
    watering lawns would be fine.  
    
    Anybody's house plans include water collection system(s)?
    
    Oh, yes, I have been influenced by a visit to Monticello,
    Jefferson's home.  Seems he built on TOP of a hill, with
    no water source nearby.  He calculated water needs, and
    made roof(s) and walkways (wood planking) into water-collection
    areas, with several large cisterns.....  Not bad for
    "primitive" times (1780?), huh??
    
                                   - Ed -

    
    RE: .6   We use the water collected by our basement dehumidifier
             for car washing and plant/flower/vegetable spot watering.
    
             We collect about 6 gals./day and store excess (rainy day
             collection) in a 30 gallon plastic trash barrel for
             future use.   Since we only spot water the actual plants
             via watering can, there are no weeds to contend with in
             the gardens other than immediately around the plant, so
             lowers maintenance time.
    
             This probably won't collect enough for a wide area application
             as a lawn or even spending money for something you may not
             need, but other people that have been throwing all that
             water out, may start using it to everyone's benefit.
    
                                           Mark

    Re: .7  on dehumidifier water use.
    
    That would be distilled water, coming off the dehumidifier, 
    wouldn't it?  I remember my Mom getting distilled water
    (bottled, not sure of source) to make sure she didn't get
    mineral buildup in her steam iron(s).  
    
    Anybody else got ideas where to use distilled (mineral-free)
    water around the house?  
    
                                      - Ed -

    Remember to keep the collection tray clean if you plan on using the
    water for things other then watering plants. ie humidifies (some), steam
    irons, car battries and radiators, car washing, window/glass cleaning
    to name a few places where minerals in the water may cause problems. 
                                                    
    Don

    I found a book others might be interested in.  "Blueprint for a Green
    Planet", by John Seymour and Herbert Girardet.  I got mine theough
    the Quality Paperback Book Club, but it's in hardcover too.  I've
    just started reading it so I can't give to much info yet, but it
    discusses things like using local, small power sources rather than
    depending on Seabrook-like centralized sources which have a lot
    of attendant problems.
    
    I have "Pattern Language", suggested earlier, as well.  It's
    fascinating but I find it tough reading because of it's "hypertext"
    style of organization and insufficient (photographic) examples.
    A companion book with illustrations and ideas for real-life would
    be fun!
    
    I also got "Square Foot Gardening" which discusses optimal harvesting
    for tiny plots or planters.  (Home grown produce, after all, reduces
    the amount of truck transportation needed to ship green tomatoes
    from California to New Hampshire...)
    
    It's coming together!  
    
    Sherry

    We have redone our kitchen over with blue and white tones but
    still have a gold refrigerator in good working order.  Is
    there a way to paint a refrigerator?  It's a lot less
    inexpensive to paint rather than buy a new refrigerator.
    Has anyone ever done this?  Any suggestions would be greatly
    appreciated.
    
    Linda D.
    

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own new
note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    Looked through the fridge notes and was unable to find instructions
    on replacing a fridge door gasket.  Has anyone done this?  If so,
    would you mind describing the process ?
    
    thanks,
    
    Dave Vedder
    

  It's very easy to get off, and only a bit trickier to get back on.

  Pull the gasket away from the door and you'll see that it's fastened
  by a metal strip with screws (usually hex head) along its length. When
  putting it back on, do it slowly and carefully, making sure that the
  "bead" is correctly positioned all around under the metal fastener
  strip. It's easiest to do this if you only put in a few screws at
  first, and don't tighten them. Also, make sure that the door is flush
  against the body of the refrigerator all around before tightening the
  screws, as these screws contribute to the structural strength of the
  door (against twisting). Oh yes, one last thing: empty the door
  shelves before you do this job, since the entire door-shelf assembly
  is held in by these screws, too. In fact, you should possibly count on
  emptying the entire fridge, since the job will take the better part of
  an hour, during which time it will lose all its cold air, and some
  stuff could spoil during the entire day it takes to recover its normal
  temperature.

    If you can't empty the refrigerator, after removing the door, cover the
    opening with plastic and tape all the edges. It will work as a
    "temporary" door.
    
    Eric

  Re .-1 (cover with plastic to keep cold in), that's a good suggestion.
  Remember, though, that you don't actually remove the entire
  refrigerator door. It will just stay open while you're working on the
  gasket. One other point I forgot to mention (is this too obvious?):
  don't overtighten the screws. They're sheet metal screws and it's easy
  to strip them.

    THANKS FOR THE GOOD ADVICE.
    
    
    
    DAVE

The replies in this note have been very educational.  I have a slightly new
twist on some of the same problems I've been reading here.  The problem is that
my freezer is icing up and is TOO cold.

I have a Montgomery Ward (Admiral) side-by-side.  There is single thermostat
located in the refrigerator portion.  The freezer temperature is set by a dial,
which controls the size of a port between the freezer and refrigerator.  The
cold air from the freezer passing through this port is what cools the
refrigerator.  The wider the port is set, the warmer the freezer.

After I noticed that my ice cream was getting ROCK HARD, I set the freezer dial
to its lowest setting (port wide open).  This helped a little, but not much.
Concurrently with the too cold freezer problem, I began to notice a gradual
buildup of ice, mostly at the top of the freezer compartment were the fan is
located.  The refrigerator is staying at the correct temperature, so I know the
problem isn't the thermostat.  And there is no obstruction in the port between
the freezer and refrigerator.

I suspect that my defrost mechanism isn't working.  During the defrost cycle, I
used to hear the sizzle caused by the melting ice hitting the heater coils.  I
don't hear that sound anymore.  I've checked my defrost timer with an ohm
meter, and the contacts that should connect during defrost appear to be
connecting.  Tonight I plan to dig into the heater circuit and check the
defrost thermostat and heater "tubes."   I have also noticed that my condenser
is running for much longer intervals than it used to.  

In review, the symptoms are:

	- Too cold freezer

	- Frost buildup in freezer
 
	- Condenser running almost constantly

	- Refrigerator compartment is fine

I'm not sure how all of these symptoms relate to each other.  I suspect a
problem with the defrost mechanism, but how does that account for a freezer
that is way too cold?  

(No, the frost is not obstructing the refrigerator/freezer port.)

Has anyone had a similar problem, or care to venture a guess?

    
     There is a drip pan that catches water as it defrosts. There is
    a path to this drip pan (don't know what it's called or where it
    is) that I've herd about but can't tell you much more. If water
    cannot escape while trying to defrost, it will freeze and continue
    to build-up. You may want to check into this furher. I'm sure this
    is where your problem lies because the frig is cold, which means
    the main system is working fine (compressor, evaporator and condensor).
    You may want to check for an accumilation of dust and dirt on the
    condensor. This will cause the evaporator to run to cold and ice
    up.
    
    Let us know if you find anything...good luck, Dave'
    

re .31

I forgot to mention that a small amount of water does collect in the drip pan
during the defrost cycle, and the first thing I did was clean the condenser
coils, which are located at the bottom of the unit.  The condenser coils were
very dirty, but cleaning them didn't seem to make any difference.  

I even called up a few appliance repair shops to pick their brains a bit.  The
people I talked to either admitted they were stumped, or took wild stabs, like:
"Oh sure, sounds like your Freon level is low, or something.  We can get a guy
out there today to fix you riiight up....."  Give me a break.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that the freezer fan doesn't shut off when
I open the freezer door.  I'm not sure if it should or not, but there are two
switches on the door.  One switch is obviously for the freezer light, but I
don't know the function of the other switch.  Could this be to control the fan?

The more I think about it, the more the problem seems to be related to air
circulation in the freezer compartment.  This could be the result of blockage
from too much ice buildup, or a fan problem.  I did notice the fan speed
fluctuate when I was poking around with the electronics a few nights ago.  I
wonder if there might be some resistance in the fan circuit, which is causing
the fan to turn slower?

Geeeez, this shouldn't be so complicated.  After all, it's just a friggin'
refrigerator, not a rocket motor!  

    
    One thing mentioned was a possible low charge of freon. This would
    cause the evaporator to ice-up, but don't know if this would cause
    the air thru it to be colder?
    
    My wifes parents had a simular problem with a frig. A service man
    came out, cleaned the drain for self defrost and recommended allowing
    a complete defrost over 24 hours. The remove all the water from
    the drip pan and turn it back on. This frig os at my house now and
    has been working fine for over a year since. Could be worth a try.
    You may find something when it's defrosted!
    

I dug a little deeper into the defrost circuit and found it was working
correctly, and there was very little ice built up on the evaporator coils.  
Reply .33 and the service guy I talked to may be right about the Freon.  When
the compressor starts up I hear a "swishing" sound coming from the condenser
and evaporator.  This could mean low Freon, I don't know.

However, my biggest suspect is the evaporator fan, which I remember had been
making strange noises.  At one point, the fan sounded like it had gravel in the
motor.  Later, it made sort of a moaning wind sound that would be perfect for a
haunted house sound track.  Now, the fan is quiet, but seems like it might be a
bit anemic. The blade also seems a bit stiff when I try to turn it manually.
Finally, I have noticed the fan speed fluctuate when it starts up, but this is
probably due to pressure factors in the evaporator compartment that affect the
load on the fan.

So, I guess I'll replace the fan motor and see what happens.

I'm thrilled to report that the problem WAS the evaporator fan motor.  The old
fan motor worked, but was turning slower due to the shaft binding on the front
bearing.  My refrigerator is back to normal.

Moral: some problems are not as obvious as others.

    What, exactly, happens if you put a refrigerator on it's back (or
    side) for transporting?  I've heard different stories on the effects
    of doing this.  I have a small refrigerator that we picked up to
    take along on camping trips.  (It's a regular 120V compressor-type
    refrigerator, not one of those special RV types than work in a
    completely different way.)  Unfortuantely, the only way I can
    move it from place to place is to lay it down in the back of the
    car.
    
    How long should it sit in an upright position (after it's been moved
    laying down) before plugging it in?  What happens if it's plugged in
    too soon? 

	re: laying down a reefer...

	About the only thing that will happen is the lubricating oil in the
	compressor unit will drain into the cooling coils. A short move
	shouldn't cause any permanent harm. Just move it quickly, put it in
	place and let it sit upright for about as long as it was on its
	side.

	If, after you plug it in, you don't hear the compressor humming
	gently, then unplug it and let it stand a bit longer...


	Chris

    That's exactly right, except that once the oil drains into the coils,
    it really doesn't matter how long it remains in that position.  I've
    moved several refrigerators in this way - some of them remained on
    their sides for several hours.  I always gave them 24 hours before
    starting them up & never had any problem.  I am told, however, that
    starting them up too soon can cause immediate damage to the compressor,
    but everyone I've spoken to agrees that 24 hours is safe.

    	I used to deliver new fridges and pickup old ones for
    	repair. We always laid them down. Never had any problem
    	with compressors.
    
    	Scott

    
    Another thing to watch out for is the compressor ripping/breaking
    off it's mounts. This won't happen if you put the shipping bolts
    that it was shipped with back in to hold the compressor down. 
    The compressor is on rubber mounts, at least on my frig, and
    I was told to do this when I moved. 
    
    Bob
    
    

    	The compressor oil is one problem, migrating refrigerant to
    the suction side of the compressor is another. Both of these will
    fix themselves over a period of time.
    
    	Rarely you could clog the metering device. Most common in
    refrigerators  are the capillary tube type. This is a tube that changes
    sub cool liquid refrigerant to the point of saturation. If this tube gets
    clogged, the unit will not cool at all or loose its efficiency. It
    will not take much to clog it. By disturbing the lubricant you may
    be disturbing some sediment in the crankcase of the compressor. This
    may find its way into the liquid line off of the compressor. The
    pressure from the compressor may be enough to dislodge any foreign
    materials. But if the capillary tube does get blocked you will
    have to clean it out and recharge the system.

    
    				CB

       My refrigerator problem is now different.
       
       A few  months  ago  we  went  through  the  "too warm replace the
       auto-defrost fan after defrosting the hard way".
       
       The newer problem (its a Whirlpool, made in 1964 +/-).
       
       The refrigerator leaks water in a neat little puddle. 
       
       The tube to the overflow pan has  been  cleaned,  and the water is
       NOT from the overflow pan.  Generally, it seems that occasionally
       water will condense on the inside walls (food compartment) of the
       refrigerator.
       
       Sometimes,  it collects in this puddle under the fridge, which is
       on top of the old hardwood floor ..  not good for the floor.
       
       The lady of the house (ho ho) opts for a new fridge.    The  sole
       breadwinner (guess who)  opts  for  a repair...  any "easy" ideas
       for solving the water drippage problem ?
       
       Alternatively, what is the  payback for replacing an old 18 cu ft
       with a new 18 cu ft (in terms of years/dollars ?).
       
       
       (I'd really hate to keep  sinking  money into something that will
       need to be replaced anyway.) ;^)
       
       Bob
       
       
       

    I used to have a 5 cu. refrigerator for college (my parents now use it
    for an extra refrig in the summer). Needless to say, that refrig would
    be packed into the trunk of a rabbit and carted back and forth to
    school. No extra care was taken in packing the refrigerator except
    that we tried not to have the compressor hit the trunk door as we
    struggled to get the stupid thing into a small space - it survived
    all our attempts to kill it.
    
    The freezer still works too.
    			Cindy
    

re: 1971.36 
>-< Help: Refrigerator dripping water onto floor ?? >-

>The newer problem (its a Whirlpool, made in 1964 +/-).
       
>The refrigerator leaks water in a neat little puddle. 

My friendly refrigerator guru (Leominster Appliance Repair) advised
me that we need a defroster unit.

The Defroster unit  snuggles under the freezer compartment, and prevents
ice buildup (ice has  been  building  up).    Cost:  $100 for unit, and I
suppose installation.

End of story (more/less).  WE  got  a slightly dented 22 cu ft Whirlpool
fridg  on  sale  at  Spruce  Appliance for  what  seemed  a  good  price
($769.00). I guess we're all set for another 27 years. ;^)

-Bob
       
       
       
       

    
    
    I have two old servels that I use in my summer cottage- there are
    probaly 200-300 of these old refrigerators on the little island
    and repirs on the old servels are out of the question- usually one of
    the many pieces of tubing corrodes and repairs are out of the question.
    (those ammonia refigerators are very hazardous).
    
      If you could find a place that would repair it- the cost would
    probably be prohibitive.- I would be tempted to look for another old
    Servel- there are some still around- I had picked up several and last
    year I ended selling my 3 "spares".- You should be able to pick up a
    good running Servel with a top freezer for $100-$200.- 
    
     Both Whirpool an Norge made gas refirgerators back in th 50's and
    early 60's- Whirlpool took over the old Servel system and put the same
    unit in a modern "box". Check with the local gas company- the last one
    I got was a unit thaty was removed by bay Statae Gas company-from a
    customer they had sold it to in 1950!- all I had to do was convert from
    natural gas by installing a smaller jet for propane.
    
     If you go this route, I would suggest you save the burner/jet.
    replacement parts do not exist, as SErvels haven't been made for almost
    30 yrs.
    
    If you go the route of a new gas refrigerator- yopu camper/R/v supply
    houses atre expensive- try your local p[ropane dealers. I have a friend
    who decided to go new and for a SIBIR gas refrigerator, was quoted
    $1200 plus shipping by an R/V dealer- and got the unit for a little
    over $800 from his local propane distributor.
    
    SANYO (japanese)
    SIBIR (swiss)
    Dometic (american)
    
    are the three current manufacturers ogf gas refrigerators. SIBIR also
    makes a kerosene fuel unit.
    
    Dick
     
    
    

    
    My RV refrigerator sprung a leak toward the end of last summer.
    It was a real slow leak in the freezer compartment, it would knock
    you on your butt when opened !!  The smell never got into the trailer
    as long as we left it shut. It took a month or so before all the
    amonia leaked out. As has been mentioned here and in a recent note
    I wrote that got write-locked, it's very costly to fix or replace !
    But !!  I was given the name of a place that will repair the units
    without replacing the whole cooling unit ! This place charges $225
    to repair any leak and warrenties the repair for a year ! Many RV
    dealers send their repairs here. I've got the fridge in my cellar
    and will soon be taking it there. I'll post the results when I get them.
    
    the place is....
    
    RV Refrigeration Repair   ( catchy name huh ? )
    87 Belmont St.
    N.Andover Mass.
    (508) 698-4111
    
    a moderatly happy camper    ;^)
    

The guy from mass save was in last week.  I not only got 3 new funky lightbulbs,
but also some interesting information on the energy usage of my circa 1970 frost
free refrigerator.  He stated that my refrigerator probably cost about $40 per
month to run.  New ones cost $6-12 per month.  Now, if the $40 per month is
true, I could buy a new one on credit and get an immediate positive cash flow.
Does anyone know of anywhere I can find corroborating data before I go out and
invest $1500 (new one's been picked out) on a new refrigerator?

    I suspect the $40 vs. $6 claim is *highly* optimistic.  We bought a
    new refrigerator a couple of years ago, replacing a 20-year-old
    clunker...no noticable difference in electricity use.  Of course,
    my lifestyle was changing a lot at that point so other factors
    may have entered into it to hide the savings, but I wouldn't run
    out and buy a new refrigerator just so I could (theoretically) save
    money on the electric bill.  

It may not be all that optimistic.  The newest refrigerators have much better
insulation and more efficient compressors.  You can corroborate at least the
current models' energy use from the EnergyGuide stickers that are required
to be displayed.

			Steve

new model we like is $112/year to operate ($9.33/month)

a consumer's digest article I found stated that the refrigerator manufacturers
claim an 80% improvement over refrigerators built in 1972. Thus, $40/month to
run mine seems like a reasonable number.

If this is true, it seems like it's been kept somewhat secret.

That $112 that's on the sticker is based on the national average electrical
rate (assuming it's the big number).  If you live in, say, PSNH territory,
you'll pay a lot more.

If you don't have any other major electricity users (heat, hot water, range),
then you can easily figure out what it's costing you now -- probably about
90% of your electric bill.

You can get a rough idea of how much electricity your old refrigerator is 
using as follows:

Before you go to bed, unplug your heating system (it's warm weather),
unplug your well pump (if you have one), and turn out all the lights
except for a few.  Then go read your electric meter, note the time,
turn out the rest of the lights, and go to bed.  

In the morning, read the meter, note the time, and turn everything back
on.  The result will be how much electricity your refrigerator and
your electric clocks used overnight.  That's probably less than the
refrigerator uses during the day, since it's cooler at night, but then
it probably uses less during winter days, because it's cooler inside
in the winter (at least in my house).  Still, you can use this and
a copy of your electric bill to estimate your true monthly cost for
running your regrigerator.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- I haven't bought a refrigerator for 6 years, but even so, $1500 
seems like a lot, unless it's a top-of-the-line model.  

    The models over $1000 tend to be gewgaw-filled side-by-side models,
    which are inherently less efficient than top (or bottom) freezer
    models.  You can get an excellent top-freezer 18-21 cf model for 
    under $800.
    
    				Steve

Since we're on the subject, I'll essay a minor side issue.  Refrigerators
don't sell at fixed prices, any more than automobiles do.  I got a $100
discount at Sears (I used to shop there) simply by telling the salesman
that I liked his model best, but it was much more expensive than one I
saw elsewhere.  Imagine my surprize when he called that weekend and told
me that there was a special sales promotion and the one I wanted was
reduced in price to just $50 more than the competing model I had mentioned.
It was a real eye opener -- I only told the salesman about the other model
(which really existed) to explain why I was walking out without buying.

And now back to real home_work topics.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

re .5 (et al)

I also have a freezer and another refrigerator downstairs. I wouldn't want to
shut them all off.  I was hoping someone would have known of some article that
was done on the subject.

actually, the refrigerator was $1680 at lechmere.  It's a large (25 cu ft) white
on white (that was $100 more than the one with some black on it).  I should be
able to replace both refrigerators with it.  btw. I like side by side because
I'm tall, and like the ice and water dispenser on the side.  btw2. my wife 
wanted to buy a built in, but I said $2600 (sub zero) to $3500 (kitchenaid) was
a little high.


I will be checking places like yale electric (generally good prices plus free delivery), percy's (there
price has been better than yale's recently on some things we purchased), and
better electric in worcester (my next door neighbor and my coworker both found
that it's willing to deal).  As the refrigerator will only be one component of
many purchased, you can bet that I'll be getting many bids.

    I agree that the $40/month for a 20 year old frost-free is bull$#!t. I
    have a 1970 Frost-Free that I keep at about 32 deg. (some liquids
    freeze) year-round. My electric bill TOTAL is usually around $25/month
    (single person in energy efficient home). I don't think the
    refrigerator-freezer could account for more than $20/month, probably
    less.  - Chris

re: .8

If you're in the Worcester vicinity, you may as well check Percy's.  They have
a large selection, they'll start out by giving you a Digital or Mass Buying 
Power discount, and they'll dicker some more from there, especially if you can
find a competitive price.

My recollection is that we spent about $900 on a 24 cu. ft. top freezer model, 
including the icemaker.  $1500 seems like hiway robbery to me.  Besides, side-by
side freezers have trouble with bulky items, like 20 lb. turkeys (but that's
another note).

   Gary

        Re:8 Don't forget to try Percy's in Worcester they offer 3% above
    wholesale when you flash your DEC badge.
       Re:-1 I agree 100%. In 1985 we got rid of a vintage 1943 servel gas
    fridge and bought an energy efficient Hotpoint. Well the electric bill
    went up by about 30 bucks and the gas bill only dropped a couple bucks
    a month. Do I ever miss those days with 28 dollar electric bills
    
          Bob

    I agree with -.9. My electric bill runs about $32 a month and
    that includes older frige, electric stove, electric dryer, microwave,
    lights that always seem to be on, sometimes soldering irons and
    power saws, fans year round, and some summer air conditioning.

    If you're tall (like me!), you should also consider a bottom freezer
    model.  They're slightly more money ($50?) than top freezer models,
    but infinitely more convenient -- all the shelves are easy to see/reach
    (without getting down on your knees!)   And, of course, they're much
    more efficient in both power and space use than side-by-sides...
    
    Just MHO,
    	-Todd

Unless things have changed radically in the past 5-10 years, I'll have to
go with the OLD.

I have an 8 year old freezer, GE, that is adequate, not self defrost.
I also have an old (1952, pushing 40 years) Philco Refrigerator that I use
as a freezer. Stripped out baffles, freezer compartment door and it holds
at 10-15 degrees. Would hold at 0 if I crank the control full cold.

I checked power consumption on both with watt-hour meter and the GE was the
winner, consumes about 20%-30% more than the Philco. The only significant
variation with the Philco is if I have just loaded it with a fresh supply
of things to be frozen. Whatever they did with that machine they did it right.

Bob

    I agree with many of the previous notes... the estimate of $40 / month
    just for the refrig is undoubtedly too high... by a considerable
    amount.  Sounds like you've made up your mind to buy a side by side
    refer...that's gonna cost you more electricity.  But, I like the notion
    of buying a BIG one.  Keep if FULL and your costs for running will be
    less.  Especially true for that vertical-doored freezer half.  
    
    Many folks use their freezer as often as they use the refrigerator..
    very costly.
    
    I think it's a mistake to buy a new appliance just becuz it's more
    efficient than the old.  If your old one works well, keep it.  unless
    you just WANT a new one!
    
    tony

    also... check the old box's seals.  they are fairly easy to replace,
    and can make a BIG difference.

    I did the same calculations back in Feb, and as a result unplugged my
    old 1969 Coldspot 16cu ft refrig/freezer and bought a 25 cu ft new one.
    My elec bills have gon down by about 30$ per month. I had borrowed a
    meter from the Elec company and measured my old unit at 377 watts, my
    new one is 110 or so watts, or 262 watts or so savings = nearly 200
    units per month. This is at the same time as going from 16 cu ft to 25
    cu ft, an increase of 50% in size. I estimate that my new unit at $900
    is a good deal when it saves me about $350 a year in elec bills.
    
    Tony
    

    Aren't Dometics made in Sweden?
    
    Carl
    

< Note 2476.4 by SALEM::LAYTON >

>>>Aren't Dometics made in Sweden?
    
    Carl

The label on my 2.6 cu ft unit in my RV says it's made in
England. Dometic is HQed in Canada.

cal

    re. .17  - As a check on what I said in .9, I noted my current bill:
    for June it was $26 (just electric, I have gas stove & dryer, oil hot
    water, single occupant). My refrigerator is also a 1970 vintage 16 cu
    ft Coldspot (Sears). 
    	There has got to be a use factor here somewhere - number of times
    a day the door is opened. Amount of room temp. or warm food placed in
    the refrig./day, etc.  To get $30+ of a bill due to one of these units,
    it seems that you need a pack of kids opening the door every 5 minutes
    and warm leftovers put in every day...
    	- puzzled Chris

re .17

That jives with the mass save person said, and what I read in consumer's
digest.  btw, I called mass save, and was told that they have no such formal
information (surprising), and that the person who came to the home must have
been speaking from personal experience.  We'll probably get the new one, and 
I'll report on results afterwards (this might take 6-8 months, since it will be
done at the tail end of a home addition).

re .18

I had bills like that also.  But that was before I got married and had 2 kids.

re .15

yes, you're probably right, we'll probably buy a new one even if our cost of
ownership of the new one is higher than the old.  However, if the cost of 
ownership of a new one is less than than the old one, then it is a mistake not
to buy a new one (other things being equal).

re .13

bottom freezer models do not have ice/water dispensers.

re .8

we found that better electric in worcester is willing to beat percy's best
price.  Now we need to see if percy's will come down.

re: Note 3872.17 by AV8OR::BRYAN:

"I had borrowed a meter from the Elec company ..."

What is this device called?  Can I make one without any knowledge of
electronics?  We have an old upright freezer in the cellar and I'd like to know
what it's drawing.  Given the relatively low prices of a small chest freezer
these days, I may be able get obe essentially free with enough electrica bill
savings.

Pete

P.S.  Without knowing what the thing is called, I asked my electric company
billing department (Shrewsbury) if they were aware of such a thing, and they
weren't.  If I call the engineering department and name the device, perhaps
they'll know what I'm talking about.

    re: .20 (Peter)
    
         This is my first note in this conference and this is my first
    reply...by this what I am saying is that perhaps someone has answered
    this elsewhere and I am completely unaware of it.  But, in any case,
    to answer your question about a meter, yes, you can construct one.
         I presently "rent" my electricity from a neighbor (don't have
    proper building permits to have my own) and this neighbor was using
    tons of electricity (upwards of $400/month) and suspected that I
    might be part of the reason.  Well, I had computed my probable usage
    by using a form mailed to me by Pacific Gas & Electric and had
    determined that my use would be anywhere from $15-$25 depending
    on what my refrigerator would be doing (I rely heavily on propane)
    so I was certain I wasn't the bad guy here (I had been paying a 
    flat $30/month.)  But they insisted I had to install a meter so that
    they could see what I was doing and threatened to unplug me if I
    didn't.  Naturally, I complied to avoid the loss.
         I searched around everywhere for a meter.  I was told they'd
    cost me $1000 or that they were unavailable, etc., etc.  PG& E
    had no idea where I could get one, electronics companies wanted
    a small fortune for things way beyond what I wanted.  Finally, 
    out of some kind of shear luck, someone said something that got
    me into an electrical wholesale supply house (the kind electrical
    contractors might frequent.)  They had everything I needed.  They
    had a box (a metal box with a large circular cutout) for about
    $20-$30, as I remember, plus two different types of meters to fit
    into the box (the meter has a couple of very large plugs behind it
    that plug into appropriate receptacles built into the box)--one very 
    fancy one and the other a simple one of the type I have always seen
    used by the power companies (with little numbers that go round and 
    round...)  I bought the cheaper one (about $30-$50...I can't
    remember precisely.)  I also had to buy some wire (romex-type) and
    a couple of smaller outdoor-type switching boxes to attach to the
    bigger box (to put 110 volt receptacles on.)
        When I finished with my little project I had about $100 in it
    (this part I *do* remember  ;-)  ) and I had this thing attached to
    a 4x4 piece of wood about four feet long.  From it I had a cord leading
    to a 110 volt plug (which went into the top part of the meter) and
    another cord (from the bottom of the meter) to my attached little
    outdoor, 110 volt receptacles-box.  I was thus able to plug into
    any source of 110 volt power and then plug anything I wanted into
    my little box and I could then watch the little numbers whirl and 
    twirl.  It works fabulously...I have it constantly plugged in outdoors
    at my neighbor's house (at an external socket outside his house)
    and voila'!  
         Incidentally, I found out that my electric use has averaged
    $18/month for over a year (with the refrigerator running constantly.)
    
    
    Frederick
    

    
    hey !!  when all of you buy new fridges let me know !!  I need
    one for my camp !!  I don't care how much electricity it uses
    I don't pay for it.
    
    I had a Coldspot at the camp that I had moved from my house this
    spring, I noticed about a $20 to $25 decrease in my electric bill .
    the thing died a couple weeks ago though.
    
    Randy
    

        Can any one give me a brief description on how gas
        refrigerators function?  Do they need any electricity of any
        form?  Does a pilot light have to remain on constantly.

        May sound like some weird questions but I know absolutely
        nothing about these units.  I need something for a remote
        camp.

        Thanks,

        Ken

    
    	Re: .6    Ken
    
    	My husband and I own a log cabin in the White Mountains, in New
    Hampshire that has no electricity and never will.  We are twelve miles
    from town.
    	All the applicances are gas.  The refrigerator has a pilot which
    we light as soon as we get there.  It takes a couple of hours for it
    to cool down, and the pilot is on constantly.  When we leave we shut
    off the refrig and then the gas bottle outside.  
    	There is a cord on it for a light, but I don't miss the light. 
    Of course this isn't what I use every day.
    	This refrigerator is about thirty years old, but they do sell
    new one at Petrolane Company, in North Conway.
    
    	Hope this helps,   Linda
    

    They work as follows ....
    
    The coolant is ammonia ... very volatile ...
    
    The ammonia is heated to boiling point and vapourizes .... the vapour is 
    then passed under pressure through a narrow orifice where it is effectively
    sprayed ... the spraying process produces cold ... (like a spray can)
    the vapours fall and condense and the procedure continues.
    
    The gurgling you hear is the ammonia boiling.
    
    The whole process can be done with just heat and no compressor.  The
    coolant can be heated by electricity, gas, or kerosene.
    
    Stuart

< Note 2476.7 by WMOIS::L_WATERMAN >
>>>When we leave we shut
    off the refrig and then the gas bottle outside.  

Just a nit, Linda. The gas should be shut off at the tank first
so that the line is purged of gas by the pilot burning it. If
there's a long line or a lot of appliances, the line may hold
enough gas to be a danger should there be a leak.
This advise taken from a RV maintenance manual.

>>>There is a cord on it for a light, but I don't miss the light. 

You can use a 12V RV bulb and convert the power lead to be hooked
to a 12V battery source.

RE .8

Stuart,

I am not sure about the spraying bit. In RV refrigerators, the
cooling coils are larger than the heat exchanger lines to allow
for the gas to expand. The heating in RVs uses propane, 12 VDC
and 110VAC (3 way). The other MAJOR requirement is that the
refrigerators must be level; they develop a problem much like
cholestrol build-up within one's arteries.

cal

    Spraying is about the best way to describe what happens ... 
    technically though you are right, but basically the ammonia
    vapour leaves a constricted high pressure area and passes into 
    an open and hence low pressure area ... hence the concept of
    "spraying"  and in so doing absorbs heat.
    
    Stuart

Are gas operated refridgerators more economical to operate than electric?
Note I did not say more efficient.   Is it reasonable to use one in a normal
home situation?

-Larry

    
    >Just a nit, Linda. The gas should be shut off at the tank first
    >so that the line is purges of gas by the pilot burning it.
    
    The pilot on the stove is still burning.  After I shut off the tank
    I watch the stove pilots to be sure that they go out.  This way the
    gas in the line is used up.
    
    Linda
    

I recently bought a house which had a freezer in the basement left from the
previous occupants.  I have little of no use for an extra freezer, but I could
use an extra refrigerator to keep supplies of various beverages cold.

It seems like it should be possible to use a freezer as a refrigerator by some
simple reversible modifications.  I've tried turning the thermostat control up,
but things still freeze in it. Any other ideas?

Jim.

    I think the easiest method would be to find somebody who has a
    refrigerator but needs a freezer, and do a swap.  Somebody like
    me, for instance.  Send mail.
    
    pbm
    

But some day in the future, I might want to have a freezer back.  Hence I'd
like to know how to do a reversible conversion.

Besides, I doubt that you are anywhere near Norwich CT, and the freezer is
in a basement and I can't imagine how they got it through the basement door.

Jim.

where is the thermostat probe? If mounted on the exterior of the chest,
you could try bending away from the chest or stuffing some insulation between
it and the chest. If on the interiour, you could try loosening it and
pushing it partially outside the chest. Another possibility, if the
thermostat is inside the chest, is to place a box or bag of insulation
to block it off. If this happens to make the chest think its colder
when its not, you'll get a warmer temperature in the chest.

>     <<< Note 3914.3 by CIMNET::LUNGER "Dave Lunger, 291-7797, MET-1/K2" >>>

The problem with .3 is that all these solutions will make the 
thermostat see temperatures WARMER than what's in the chest, forcing
the freezer to try to push the chest temperature even lower.

    
    re: .0
    
    Hunter makes a thermostatic device whose real purpose in life is to
    control either an air conditioner or an electric heater.  It is a small
    box which plugs into the ac line, and has an ac outlet on the front,
    a probe on a four foot long wire, some controls, and an LCD display.
    It's range is 40� to 80�.  It's even got smarts to tell you about
    electric usage over the past 24 hours, I think.
    
    I got one to control a refrigerator for beer lagering purposes, but
    I don't see why it wouldn't also control a freezer.  You would plug
    the freezer into it, put the probe into the freezer compartment,
    set the dial to optimum beer drinking temperature, and wah lah!
    
    I got mine on sale at Builder's Square for around $35.
    
    -Dan

I'd think that the problem with using a freezer as a refrigerator is that
a freezer doesn't have provisions for getting rid of condensed moisture.  You
might end up with quite a puddle on the floor (or in the bottom if it's a chest
freezer.)

				Steve

re .6:

It's just like a manual defrost refrigerator (remember those?).  Actually,
a freezer's even better, since it has a drain plug in the floor.

Re: .7

Yes I remember them and used to have one.  But the manual defrost
refrigerators have a well in the bottom to hold the water, or sometimes
a little cup under the cooling plate and a tube running out to drip on the
condensor.  Freezers are not designed to run with liquid water in the
compartment as a normal state.

The drain tube on the freezer, if it has one, might help here.  Not all
of them do.

Personally, I don't think such a conversion is worth it.  A freezer is
a good thing to have around.

			Steve

Can a freezer also be transported on it's side (following the guidelines in 
the previous notes for refridgerators)?

We moved a refridgerator, from living room to kitchen, this past weekend.

It's a side by side Whirlpool (3 years old).  We used a heavy duty dolly so 
tipping of the unit was minimal.  (It was in tipped position for no more than 
10 minutes).  When we tipped it, water drained out of the bottom (enough to 
cause a puddle about 8" in diameter).

We plugged it in after letting it stand for approximately 10 minutes.

The problem is that the seal between the fridge door and the fridge, 
(on the fridge side) is hot.  Initially it was very hot, now it's just a little 
hotter than warm.  Standing in front of the refridgerator, you can feel heat.
radiating out.  Also you can feel this heat when you open either fridge or
freezer side door.  Otherwise the fridge appears to be working normally.

Should the seal be hot?  The unit is surrounded on 1 side by a floor-to-ceiling
cabinet, 1 side by a bottom and top cabinet (18" open between them), and 1 side
by a sheetrocked wall.  There is only about an inch clearance on the 2 sides
and several inches in the back.  
The fridge was never hot before but it was never surrounded on 3 sides.


Thanks for any answers you can give me!

    
    Re .8
    
    Sounds like it needs more ventilation (more room around it). They
    remove heat from the interior, and release it from the coils on the
    back, and compressor gives off heat, also (it's a motor, motors run
    warm after a time).
    
    Fred

    Let me comment more about my note .17 - I live in Hudson MA where our
    elec rates are about the highest in the state (MA) due to our elec
    companies forsight in investing so heavily in Seabrook. We pay about 13
    cents per unit. The rest is easy - 377 watts at 13 cents per unit = 280
    units per month or $36.46. The 377 watts was measured using a borrowed
    meter from Hudson Light and Power. The unit is nothing more than a
    portable meter like the one in an earlier reply constructed. ie The
    same as the one in your house that the elec company reads each month.
    You simply plug the special meter into an outlet and the the appliance
    into the socket on the meter. measure the use over 1 to 7 days or
    whatever to eliminate any hour to hour variations because of defrosting
    etc and family opening the door and divide the number of units used by
    the time between readings.
    
    I have not in fact measured the use on my new refrigerator, but am
    going by the rating notice on the door. One reason that I know of as to
    why newer units use less energy is that they all now have a "energy
    saver switch" for use when its not humid. This switch turns off the
    heater coils around the doors which are there to eliminate any
    condensation. This is in fact one of the major uses of power in the old
    units. Of course if you are capable its always possible to "update" an
    older unit in this fashion by locating the electrical schematic and
    disconnecting the heater coils.
    
    Our unit also has an ice dispenser through the door (auto ice maker of
    course). Thsi probably also helps a lot in the summer since a major
    cause of loss of "cold" in the freezer is from people frequently
    opening the door to get ice etc.
    
    Tony
    
    "i_know_its_true_because_I_id_it"

    
    
    
    
    and the water probably came from the little catch pan that sits
    under the unit on top of the coils, this catches the water from
    the frost free freezer, once in the catch pan, the water evaporates
    over time....
    
    
    
    
    Royce

    Re .8
    
    The heat may be coming from the anti-condensation system intended
    to heat the exterior to prevent a wet surface.  Some refrigerators
    use electric heaters, some use circulated hot air rejected from the
    compressor.  We also have a big side-by-side Whirlpool surrounded
    by cabinets, and it has shown no problems since installed.  The hot
    air ejection on the Whirlpool is mainly toward the front at floor
    level, and there are no exposed coils on the back as with older
    models, so the cabinets shouldn't be a problem.
    
    pbm
    

    The door seals are often heated in some fridges to prevent the
    build up of frost and moisture during hot humid weather.  There
    is usually a switch inside the fridge to control these, and is
    usually labelled something like "Energy saver feature".
    
    Stuart

    
    I transported a frige recently and since I'd rented a van and not a
    truck, we had to lie it down.  It was laying down for about an hour. 
    Someone told me to let it stand for a substantial <period of time> 
    before plugging it in (I think he said a couple of hours and I don't
    know why).  I let it stand for a day, since I didn't need to use it,
    and it's fine.
    
    CQ 

    Same problem - freezer freezes, but the frig doesn't stay cold.  But
    this is an old "manual" defrost guy.  It doesn't even have a separate
    freezer door.

    Any ideas?

    (I scanned through the replies here and it seems most advice centers
    around the auto-defrost stuff.)

re    <<< Note 1971.38 by XANADU::RECKARD "Jon Reckard, 381-0878, ZKO3-2/T63" >>>
>                                 -< Warm frig >-
>
>    Same problem - freezer freezes, but the frig doesn't stay cold.  But

My Amana works this way:  The cooled air comes into the refridgerator by way of
a "box" just  inside  the freezer compartment on the back wall.  Inside the box
are a couple of thermostatically  (bi-metal  element)  operated  valves.    One
senses the need for cooled air in the freezer and the other senses the need for
cooled air in the refridgerator.  There are two problem areas for each.  First,
if the valves have trouble operating freely, they will have a hard time getting
the  correct  sending/shutting  off  cooled  air  to  the correct  compartment.
Second,  if  you  stack  things  around  the air outlets, you  will  have  poor
distribution (if any) of the cooled air.

Luck

Dave

    I couldn't find a note on FREEZERS, so I'll start one here.
    
    What recommendations do people have for extra freezers - upright or
    chest pros/cons, brand recommendations, defrosting, ease of use, etc.?
    
    We're considering one for the basement, but are not sure which type
    makes the most sense.  What's your experience?

    The upright made more sense to me; with a chest you usually wind
    up needing to get something which is buried under tons of other
    frozen stuff.  With the upright you can usually reach around the
    stacks.
    
    The upright also takes up about half the floor space of a chest
    type.

    I like the chest style, as there's far less air circulation when you
    open the door, and thus the frost builds up a _lot_ slower.  Of course
    if you get a frost-free one, you are all set (and are independently
    wealthy. :+)
    
    Willie
    

    OOOOhhhhh!  BAD BAD!
    
    DO not get a frost free freezer for any long term storage!!  They work
    by automatically defrosting every now and then.  This is done by
    raising the temperature!  (Unless technology has changed a lot in the
    last few years.)  This contributes to rapid spoilage.
    
    I've had a small chest freezer for about 8 years now, and defrost it
    with an ice scraper once every couple of years.  And, our basement is
    extremely humid.  This unit takes up about the same space as a washer. 
    I came with a basket, but I never used it, and it got lost about 6
    years ago.  
    
    I usually keep a pig and a couple of turkeys, and several other odds
    and ends.  The key to not having to make major archeological digs on a
    regular basis is to be organized.  Know whats in each package (LABEL
    IT), and arrange your foods so that the stuff you get on a regular
    basis is handy.  For us that means that turkeys and hams go on the
    bottom in a layer with the pig lips and other choice parts packed
    around them.  The bacon and porkchops and breads, etc. layer on top. 
    Its easy to excavate a turkey a couple of times a year...  much easier
    than excavating a porkchop once a week.

I've looked through the other notes here on refrigerators and didn't see this,
so....

We have an old (+10 yrs) GE refrigerator that has what seems to me to be a
strange problem:

The refrigerator seems cold enough, but over a period of about 1-1/2 weeks a
pool of cold water will build up on the bottom of the refrigerator section. 
I've looked for some type of drainage hole there but there is none; the floor of
the refrigerator section is molded to form sort of a shallow basin --- almost
like the designers expected a little water to form there.  The water will
collect until it finally gets higher than the edge of this basin, then overflow
towards the door, under the door seal and finally across our kitchen floor
(usually happens overnight.)  This seems happen more frequently when the weather
is hot and humid (as it's been here in NE lately.)  There is a lot of "sweat"
around the front surface of the refrigerator where the door seal seats.

There is a small switch marked with something like "switch this on if moisture
appears on exterior" but leaving it on doesn't have a noticeable effect.

Any ideas as to what might be going on here?

Thanks in advance...

I'd say your door seal is getting old an letting warm, moist air into
the fridge.  This condenses and becomes the puddle at the base of your
fridge. There's always going to be a *little* condensation, so the
fridge designers made a depression to hold a small amount long enough
for it to evaporate.  But when the seal gets old an tired, you'll get
more than it can handle.  You'll also get more condensation around the
edges than the door heater (the little switch) can handle.

If you want, you can try cleaning the seal and the surface it seats on.
 But probably you'll need to get a new seal and put in on the door. 
It's a $10 one afternoon job.
                                              >>>==>PStJTT

We just emptied our old 19 ft� chest freezer because we wanted to see what
effect not running it would have on our electric bill, being old and probably
inefficient.  The data isn't in on that yet, but what we did find was that we
were keeping about 3ft� of food in our 19ft� box!

So we're thinking of buying a 5ft� chest freezer and putting it in our pantry
(vs. in the cellar), thinking we'll still have plenty of room.

And re: things getting lost in a chest freezer: we found clam broth from 1987
in our upright, so they're no guarantee of order and sense.  And isn't a chest
freezer better in that when you open the door all of your cold air doesn't fall
out on the floor?

Pete

I find it hard to believe that with almost 4000 notes on things around the home
we've never had a note about freezers, but it's true.

Paul

Re: .1

Makes perfect sense.  I'll get a new door seal on.  Thanks for your help.

But freezers are discussed at length in LYCEUM::CONSUMER (KP7 or SELECT, etc.)

Consumer Reports did a study on freezers sometime in the past year.  We ended
up buying a 13CF chest freezer from Monkey Wards - it was made by the same
company that makes GE and Gibson freezers, but was the only place we could find
the particular size we needed.  This manufacturer was rated as having the best
reliability and performance.

I believe chest freezers are better than uprights because they are more
economical to run and keep the food more consistently cold.  I've owned
an upright in the past, and found myself having to defrost it a lot more
often than the chest freezer.

				Steve

I've also had this happen in the past.  On some refrigerators, there is a
cup that catches condensation from the surface below the freezer - there
is a hose attached to this cup that runs down the back and drips the
condensate onto the coils.  This cup and hose can get clogged up with
scum, and needs to be cleaned out occasionally.

The bad door seal may indeed be the problem, though.

			Steve

re .3:

A baster (sort of a huge eye dropper) is useful for squirting water through
the hose to clear out the crud.  Available in housewares departments.

Just for reference in case someone else runs into this:

I called the national toll-free number for GE parts.  Replacement door seals
were not cheap.  $56 for the freezer and $59 for the refrigerator door.  But
I'm convinced enough that this is the problem.

I wonder what it would've cost to have a repair person do this?  Probably
cheaper to get a new fridge.

Thanks again.

    I have also had this problem. My guess is that it is not the hose, but
    rather the connection that the hose is attached to. This goes up into
    the refrigerator and on the inside should have some sort of hose going
    up into the freezer. You are probably leaking from this joint inside
    the frig and it is dripping down the wall. Feel the inside, back wall
    of your frig and see if it is wet. What I do to remedy this, is get
    some pipe cleaner and take off the hose in the back and clean out the
    connection. It works every time! I doit it on a need-to basis, but
    probably should doit every two months.
    
    Dave

> The refrigerator seems cold enough, but over a period of about 1-1/2 weeks a
> pool of cold water will build up on the bottom of the refrigerator section. 

I had the same problem with an frig. and the cause turned out to be a
broken defroster element in the back of the freezer section. The
"glass" tube that the element was in was broken so that it didn't work
as well as it should. This caused ice to build up near the back of the
freezer and under the freezer floor which blocked the hole that the
rest of the defrost water was suppose to run down. This in turn caused
the water to over flow and run down inside back wall of the frig.
and collect on the floor. 

The freezer was still defrosting as it should. Either that element was
working partialy or the were other elements in the walls. So even
though the freezer is still frost free, it didn't rule out a problem
with that element. Look for water running down the walls to see if you
might have the same problem. 

In this case, the fix was a $30 part (really) that took about an hour
to replace. 

Charly

I replaced the gaskets on a 16 cf GE refrigerator about four years ago.  I
mail-ordered the gaskets for about $80 total (sorry, I forgot who from).  A
�-inch nutdriver and 2 hours work was all that was necessary.  Well worth
the expense and effort (now my ice cream stays frozen).

To see if you need a new door gasket, close the door on a dollar bill.  If
you can slide the bill out easily, you need a new gasket.

Re: cold air falling out on the floor

That's not really a problem if you're using the freezer correctly.  The
amount of air is small and it's thermal effect is negligable in
comparison to all the frozen food packed inside the box.   It's only a
problem when you have a 19 cuber filled with 3 cubes of food....

However, I would expect a chest freeze to be more efficient for
mechanical reasons (like gravity helps seal the door.) although, as you
mention, it's easier to build up fossil layers in a chest freezer.

                                      >>>==>PStJTT

Yow! $60, $80 -- I guess it's been a long time since I replaced a
fridge seal.  Sorry about the misdirection on cost. (nuts! I've got two
seals that probably could stand replacing, too.)

                                           >>>==>PStJTT

I think it's interesting to compare the responses of HOME_WORK and CONSUMER
noters regarding the "chest vs. upright" religious argument.  So far, HOME_WORK
noters prefer chest freezers, opting for efficiency over convenience, while
CONSUMER noters prefer upright freezers.  Any interpreters out there?

I'll vote for upright freezers.  I don't think the efficiency argument makes
much difference.  If you plan reasonably well, you won't open your freezer
very frequently -- we open ours a couple of times a week.  With an upright,
you probably won't have it open as long, since things are more accessible.  
If you have back problems, it's easier to deal with an upright.  An upright
uses less floor space.

    RE: .*
    
    1. In theory, chest freezers are a bit more efficient and it is
    true that not as much cold air escapes when opened.  However...
    
    2. We found that it is _much_ easier to sort and find things in
    the upright.
    
    3. We find that we have to defrost the upright at _most_ once a
    year.
    
    4. If you do get an upright, I recommend a lock.  Just a cheap one,
    but one that prevents the door from accidentally opening if the
    food shifts. 
    
    5. CU years ago said a family of 4 needed only about 6 cu�.  We
    said bunk then and still agree.  Our 13 cu� is just about right.
    It's an Amana, takes very little energy and, knock on wood, has
    given no problem in 12 years.  We tend to buy things on sale and
    stock up.  Our top shelf is bread from the Pepperidge Farm resale
    store. 
    
    6. I am a relatively loyal follower of CU because they often bring up
    considerations I might not have thought about.  But their actual
    ratings are often quite flawed. Had we followed their advice on
    freezers, we'd have had to buy another one shortly thereafter.  Also,
    we _did_ follow their advice for refrigerators and they were dead
    wrong.  My main beef with CU is that they don't really do
    destructive/durability testing (as compared, for example, to their
    German counterpart).  So many things have broken on our CU-recommended
    refrigerator that it's almost humorous.  Most of these problems
    they could have easily tested for, but they were almost entirely
    focused on energy. 
    
    Alex
                       

    Never had a chest freezer but our upright works fine. The trick is as
    hinted at elsewhere keep it full, open as seldom as possible. We by in
    bulk and manage to only have to get into the big freezer about once a
    week. We use the one in the refrigerator for daily stuff like ice
    cubes ice cream and the weeks supply of meat. (one trick we use to keep
    the freezer full is to keep a couple of bags of ice cubes in there as
    it starts to empty out.)

    VERY VERY good point made a couple back_____-----____ GET A LOCK!!!!!!
    We lost a turkey , a ham and bunches of vegetables once because the
    kids got into the freezer to get out some popsicles and didn't shut the
    door tight. (boy was I p****d,  and broke.

    re: .10
    
>   4. If you do get an upright, I recommend a lock.  Just a cheap one,
>   but one that prevents the door from accidentally opening if the
>   food shifts. 
    
    Also don't count on the in-door lock if there is one.  I have a small
    Wards upright freezer and the lock in the door will allow the door to
    open about 1/4".  It restricts the door movement enough to not allow
    the magnet gasket to not close on its own.
    
    Another point to consider.  Frost free (upright) freezers do not have
    the cooling coils in the shelves (as part of them) but rather circulate
    cold air by fan.  This means that the shelves in a frost free freezer
    can be adjusted to your liking.  Such is not the case in a manual
    defrost feezer, if this might be a concern.
    
    -Bob

We went with a 13cu upright mainly for floor space and because of back problems
in the family.  We're not really using it to capacity so most of the space is 
taken up with 1 gallon plastic milk jugs 3/4 full of water (ice).  It's cheaper
to keep a full freezer cold than an empty one.  Ours also has pockets on the
door for little items like OJ and stuff.

One tip my mother passed along, keep a small dish with a few ice cubes in it,
in the freezer.  If you ever open the door and find the cubes have melted and
refrozen, toss all the food out.  This is very useful if you go away for 
vacation and leave the freezer stocked up.  Otherwise you really don't know
if the freezer thawed out during a power outage or not.

Dave

    I had a vary simialr problem in my refrigerator. As was explained by
    the repairman, the cooling of refrigerators is accomplished by
    directing the cold air from the freezer to the lower compartment.
    In my unit, there was a baffel in the freezer that directed
    the cold air that was blown across the coils to both the freezer
    and the lower box. We found taht the freezer worked fine and the
    lower unit was not getting cold. What happened was that the coils
    were frozen with water and did not allow the air to circulate. Fix
    was to replace the timer that turned on the heater which defrosted
    the coils. Also, a thermistat was replaced that protected the heater
    from overheating. After this was done, the refrigerator worked fine.
    hope this helps.

    
    I've had the authorized service company out 5 times to service my 14 month 
    old Amana side-by-side refrigerator. I am hoping you noters can help me 
    figure out whether I have a legitimate gripe or just have to live with the 
    noise.  
    
    Here are the problems:  Since I've had the refrigerator the motor runs very
    loud - so loud that it can be heard anywhere in the house. (I must say
    this is not a huge house, about 2000 or so sq. ft split) Sometimes
    it is louder than others and in the summer it was unbearable.  In
    addition, the compressor clicks on and off frequently, tho not all the
    time. In the beginning, the freezer was difficult to keep cold, but this 
    has been fixed.
    
    We've tried everything we can think of, like moving it around the kitchen to
    see if it the noise comes from vibrating off the floor or something.
    Until we redo the kitchen (6-8 months) the unit is just sitting against a 
    wall with no cabinets or walls beside it. This model doesn't fit in the
    space our 30 year old kitchen allots for it.
    
    The service techs.(different every time)  have agreed it sounded loud
    and to fix the loudness/clicking/not keeping freezer cold enough, 
    have installed a new compressor and filter drier evacuator (?). The last 
    thing they did was replace the freezer fan blade as the guy said it was 
    warped and the cause for the real loud noise.
    
    The last repair was in October when they changed the fan blade.  
    technician also said our complaint of frequent clicking noise when the
    motor goes on and off is normal and nothing we can do about it. (This
    statement doesn't sit well with me. I never remember this happening with 
    our last refrigerator) After this repair it was much quieter, tho not as 
    quiet as I would have liked, but could live with.  However, a few weeks 
    later it got louder again, sometimes louder than others.
    
    Anyway, I bought an Amana because they're supposed to be excellent. The
    manual says newer refrigerators are louder than the older ones but
    noone I know has a noisier refrigerator than this. (The tv is in the
    next room and I often have to adjust the volume to compensate for the
    noise of the refrig. motor.)  
    
    Do you newer refrigerator owners - especially the Amana owners - have
    noisy refrigerators?  Does the motor click on and off?  From what
    I've written does this sound like I still have a legitimate gripe with
    Amana/the service company?
    
   Thanks in advance for any help!
    
    Kathy
                        

I'll comment that Amana fared rather poorly in the ratings in Consumer
Reports for refrigerators.

I just bought a new Whirlpool refrigerator, and though there is a loud click
when the compressor switches on or off, it is otherwise rather quiet.  Today's
frost-free refrigerators do make a variety of odd noises, but if it's
loud enough to be noticeable from more than 20 feet away, I'd say it was
unacceptable.

			Steve

    .41
    
    I've had an Amana refrigerator for 2 years, and I have heard the same
    type of noises, but it has never been loud enough to bother
    me. When it becomes louder than the dishwasher, then I'll 
    consider having it serviced.
    
     - John

    
    I've had my Amana for about 2 years as well....and it is loud.  Quite
    a bit louder than the fridge it replaced.  And it does make wierd
    clicking, clattering noises.  But, it cools evenly, freezes quickly,
    and seems to be ok.  So, I've never called service on it.  Maybe
    Amana's are just noisier than others???
    
    deb
    

    I also have an Amana side by side. The compressor is very loud when it
    shuts off, but not when it is running. The fan is loud. Much noisier
    machine than the one it replaced. Other than the noise the machine runs
    fine.            

    
    Thanks for all your responses.  
    
    Kathy

    One possibility for the clicking ..... 
    
    	Our Kenmore has a built-in Ice Maker that we never hooked up. 
    	There's a bar that controls whether the ice maker is 'on' or
    	'off' ... occassionally this bar gets switched to the 'on'
    	position by mistake, and there's lots and lots of periodic
    	clicking (which I assume is the silly thing thinking it's making
    	ice!).  As soon as we put the bar back to the 'off' position,
    	the noises go away.

    - *
    
    Thanks, I'm never going to buy a Amana... jo

    
    Don't know if this is the place to ask... but...
    
    I want to get rid of a HUGE freezer from my Mom's basement.
    It's one of those chest freezers, except that it is
    two sided and about 7 feet long.  It's too heavy to remove
    without a lot of help.  Are there people out there I can
    call to get it out and dispose of it?   Would a regular moving
    company do it?  How much does something like that cost?
    
    Thanks!

    You may want to donate it to a local charity - they will pick it up! 
    Try your local Salvation Army or other organization.
    
    We got rid of some old appliances in the basement that way AND got a
    tax deduction.  (I am in New Jersey and we 'gave' a washer/dryer to
    the NCJW Thrift Shop here.)
    
    	-Barry-
    
    

    
    
    re .-1
    
    It's been broken for about... oh... 20 years (hopelessly so)!

    Look in the classified ads section of your local paper and find a
    small-time moving company, and see what they will charge to get it out
    of there, and, maybe, haul it to the dump or wherever for you (doesn't
    seem like the sort of thing I could carry in my Toyota, even if I could
    get it into the car).  I would try the little local movers before
    calling the big companies because they seem to be more willing to do
    little jobs like that, but you could try the big outfits too.  You
    could also try whatever trucking company hauls trash in your area - I
    got rid of bunch of things like a burst water heater that way (great
    big thing - taller than I am and about 3' in diameter) - I forget how
    much that cost me, but the thing COULD NOT stay in the basement after
    its replacement arrived, anyhow.
    
    /Charlotte

    How about cutting it up into smaller chunks and removing those?
    

A friend of mine had a demolition company of some sort cut up and remove a
freezer from his basement that could not be removed in one piece (an addition
blocked a former bulkhead or something).  Found them in the Yellow Pages,
I think.

-Mike

>A friend of mine had a demolition company of some sort cut up and remove a
>freezer from his basement that could not be removed in one piece 

Just don't let them use dynamite.

    Also consider "Piano movers" who are used to dealing with large awkward
    objects.  A couple of years ago the going price was $50/hr, minimum 4
    hours.  For the player-piano we had moved from basement to trailer it
    only took 4 men 1 hour, yet I consider the money well spent based on
    the difficulty and danger involved.  (Just think about the weight of 4
    men plus a player-piano on your cellar stairs - even with supplemental
    bracing.)  
    
    _Stan

Aside from all the wise ideas, have you considered taking it
apart; screw by screw and putting it out a bit at a time with the
trash?

Part of the problem; whether you take it apart a piece at a time
or cut it up is the refrigerant. It could cause some pretty
severe cold burns if in contact with the skin; let alone what the
CFC's are doing with the environment.

cal

    
    Thanks for the ideas... I'll take a look at it to see if it
    can be taken apart at all.  Maybe if we could get the compressor
    out it might be light enough to haul.  It looks like a solid
    unit on the bottom though, and I don't think I'm brave enough
    to saw through it!  $200 to move it is too much... it'll probably
    be there another 20 years!

Given that you can remove it in one piece and get it to the curb, try calling 
your town offices.  My town has a special heavy pickup day.  You call them, 
give your address and poof!  Gone!  You would want to explain the situation 
especially if it is bigger than about two people can lift.  If you didn't 
properly prep them they might get to your house, look at it, laugh and it will 
sit there on the curb for another 20 years.

Try calling disposal companies.  There are guys that contract their services to 
towns and private paying customers as well.

Stan

    
    Rather than create a note for this, I thought it could go here.
    
    My landlord's manager ripped the ground prong out of my refrigerator's
    plug.  Now, this makes me mad just on principal, and I'm going to
    replace the plug, but can someone tell me why it's REALLY NOT A GOOD
    IDEA to run the fridge on just this (now) two-pronged plug.  He 
    obviously doesn't think it's necessary and, though I'm inclned to, I
    don't really understand what the possible problems are (and I'd like to
    knbow that before I tell him he's a bozo and to never do anything like
    that again).
    
    Thanks,
    
    Christine

It's a safety hazard.  If the wiring inside the fridge fails, the metal
cabinet may become "live" and create an electrocution risk.  By grounding the
appliance, the metal cabinet is grounded and any wiring failure that would
otherwise cause the cabinet to become "live" will instead cause the fuse
or circuit breaker to blow.

If I were you I'd replace the plug.  They're cheap enough.  Just make sure
that the dark-colored wire goes to the dark colored terminal and the
green wire goes to the ground terminal.

			Steve

    It's more than a safety hazard; it's probably also a legal liability.
    The ground connection is there as a safety feature (as .-1 discussed).
    If a ground fault condition develops (as in .-1), and someone in the
    apartment is electrocuted as a result, the landlord would be liable
    due to the actions of his agent.
    
    Often the "legal liability" clause carries more weight with landlords
    than the "safety" one.

    
    Thanks.  I have a feeling that .11 would carry more weight with this 
    particular landlord.
    
    CQ

What was he hoping to accomplish by ripping it out?

    
    By ripping out the prong, he could plug it into the two-pronged outlet
    on the other side of the kitchen, where he oh-so-helpfully moved the
    fridge to after he finished (ineptly) putting new tile down.  The tile 
    looks good now, but I don't expect it to last very long.
    
    Christine

    I moved the discussion about damaged plugs on fridges to its own note
    because it seemed like it warrented its own topic.  See note mentioned
    in the title.
    
    Bruce [co-moderator]

    My guess is that he knows about the adapter.  Most people
    (ok, boneheads) who buy them never connect the ground anyway, IMHO.
    
    ed

    O.K.  This discussion just made a question pop in my head.  I use
    the adapters in a few areas of my house. (I.E. Air conditioner)
    I am not a bonehead, and DO attach the green thingy to screw that
    screws into the face plate.  However, what's the garantee that causes
    it to be grounded? 
    
    My house is 30+ years old, and does not have a grounding-type outlet
    anywhere. (Except the bathroom, where I installed one when I re-did
    it.)  Can I be sure that the outlet box is properly grounded?
    
    Kevin

    Buy one of the $6 dollar grounding outlet testers at a hardware
    store, K-Mart, or wherever.  Plug it in to the adapter and see
    if you get the correct pattern of lights on the tester.

If your house is 30+ years old, the boxes are probably not grounded.  One
easy way to tell is to go to the fuse or breaker box and look at the wires
coming in.  If they aren't labelled "W/G" (with ground), then those
circuits aren't grounded.

The NEC allows you to use a GFCI to provide protection for ungrounded
outlets, so that you can replace a two-prong outlet with a three-prong.

			Steve

re .9:

>    Buy one of the $6 dollar grounding outlet testers at a hardware
>    store, K-Mart, or wherever.  Plug it in to the adapter and see
>    if you get the correct pattern of lights on the tester.

Those testers have a disclaimer saying that they don't guarantee the
quality of the ground.

Our house is mostly wired with BX (armored cable).  The armor is supposed
to serve as ground.  There are some three-prong outlets where the green
screw isn't connected.  How can I test to see how good the ground is?
Run an ohmmeter between the third prong and a cold water pipe?

    I went hom last night, borrowed an Ohm meter from a friend and tested
    my outlets, all of them are not grounded, including the new ones in the
    bathroom.  Whats the best way of grounding these?
    
    Kevin

1.  Boneheadedness:  when writing in NOTES, or sending MAIL, I try not to say
anything that I wouldn't say to a person's face.  I might call a friend
"boneheaded" if I had a smile on my face, but I would never call a stranger
that.

2. 3-prong plugs, outlets, and adapters: I think that it's a lot of hooey.  I
KNOW that I'm going to get pounced upon for this, but let me emphasize that I'm
not recomending anything, just voicing my personal approach.

34 years ago I got a 3/8" B&D drill with a 3-prong plug.  For 20 years I went
running around looking for an adaptor when I needed to use it with a 2-prong
outlet.  I finally said "Screw it" and tore the grounding prong off.  GREAT
idea!  Now my standard "adaptor" is the pair of pliers that I use to tear prongs
off with.  

3-prong plugs are a pain in the butt and pretty much useless.  I know, I KNOW:
there is a potential for danger: a "hot" wire inside the device contacts the
case AND someone touches the case AND a ground at the same time...  But come on,
how often does this happen?  It's never happened to me, in 40 years of power
tool use.  To those of you who would say that it doesn't happen because grounded
plugs ARE used, let me ask how many times have you had fuses blow because a
short occurred and the protection worked?  It's never happened to me.

I'm sure these things HAVE HAPPENED, but life is a matter of probabilities.  
I've been shocked dozens of times, but never because of not using a 3-prong plug
and outlet. It's not pleasant, but there's a limit to what I'll do to avoid it.
Put GFI's in my garage for the 1-in-10000 chance that I'll get shocked while
using my "adapted" drill?  Not me.

Let the pouncing begin! 8-)

    Ground fault conditions occur much more often that you might expect.
    Not all ground faults result in a direct short from line to the case
    of a tool/appliance; many result in a high-resistance connection,
    which in most cases would not result in more than a tingle, if that.
    Some may depend on which orientation you insert the plug into the
    outlet (ground fault may be "closer" to one of the supply lines).
    These may never be detected nor cause any problems.
    
    However, under the right conditions (sweaty palms?  damp ground), the
    "slight leakage current" can be sufficient to kill you.
    
    In my lifetime I've had experience with 3 cases of direct ground
    fault; the most recent one happened last week.  One of the kitchen
    appliances (with a grounding plug) had a direct ground fault; it
    blew the associated breaker.  If that appliance had not been properly
    grounded, I might be attending my wife's funeral this week.
    
    I carry a grounding adapter in my tool box; if I need it, I'll use it.
    The slight trouble is, in my opinion, sufficiently offset by the added
    safety when I CAN use a properly-grounded outlet because I haven't
    ripped off the grounding pin.
    
    No pouncing; you decide how YOU want to risk your life.  If you've
    been lucky so far, I hope your luck holds out.

  What a silly reply. By that logic, you shouldn't buy any form of
  insurance (except where required by law). Actually, I know some people
  who don't. They're betting that they won't be one of the very small
  percentage of people who actually would benefit from insurance (most
  of us just subsidize those people, and supply profits to
  underwriters). It's all just a bet, isn't it? To paraphrase an
  expression from the aviation business, there are two kinds of people
  in the world: those who've lost a bet, and those who will.

  Personally, I prefer GFI protection to ground protection, but
  investing the time and money to get my whole house GFI protected isn't
  something I've managed to do, yet.

Re: .12

The only "legal" (per NEC) way is to run new cable with a ground conductor
to the outlets.  An alternative is to use a GFCI on the first outlet in
the circuit, and you are then allowed to replace downline outlets with
three-prong outlets.  The ground pin is not grounded, but you are still
protected.

				Steve

    Are you sure they aren't grounded?  How did you measure it?  You might
    try turning off the breaker, taking off the outlet plate and pulling out
    the outlet.  There should be three wires running to it, white, black and
    bare copper.  
    					- Vick

How about this for a 3 prong tester?

Take an old lamp or something, attach a 3 prong cord to it, but wire the lamp
so it uses hot+ground instead of hot+neutral.  Put a switch in the hot lead,
and do NOT connect the ground to anything besides the connection on the bulb
socket.  Do not connect neutral to anything.  Leave switch OFF when
plugging/unplugging this contraption, switch on only long enough to see what
the bulb does.  If lamp works correctly when turned on, you have a good ground.
If it doesn't, you don't (or hot and neutral are reversed).

This isn't exactly safe, since if the outlet isn't grounded, anything the
ground outlet prong is connected to will be hot through the bulb.  The metal
box and the little screw in the center included...

Be careful if you try this.

-Mike

    .17
    Grounding did not become standard wiring practice until mid 60's. 
    Houses built before then did not have ground wires.  The person asking
    this set of questions stated up front that their house was 30+ years
    old which would make it 50's construction so it probably would not have
    ground.  
    
    Checking to make sure is always a good idea because you never know what
    previous owners did.

My house was built in 1964, and the majority of it is strung with ungrounded
wire.  Two later circuits were added that used 12/2 WG (the rest of the
house is 14/2!), but three-prong outlets were not used - they grounded the
boxes.  For these circuits, I was able to properly install three-prong
outlets.  For the rest, I used GFCIs.

			Steve

    It just seemed unusual to me that all his outlets would be three
    pronged but that the wiring would be two wire.  But I suppose someone
    could have replaced all the outlets so that three prong plugs could
    be used even if the ground wire wasn't there.  - Vick

    re. .21
    
         I didn't say that that I have three prong outlets. (I don't)
    What I was asking was...
    
    If I use a three prong adapter and actually screwed in the green ground
    thingy, how am I sure that is in fact grounded.  
    
    
    re. -a few.
    
    I'm not electrical wiz, so I may not have use the ohmmeter properly.  I
    will take off a few plates tonight and see what kind of wiring I have.
    I'm pretty sure it only has a Hot and Ground.
    
    Thanks
    
    Kevin

Re: .21

That's what was done in parts of my house - three-prong outlets that weren't
grounded.  Very unsafe!

Re: .22

The proper way to do it is to use an adaptor and the tester.  Touch the
grounding wire of the adaptor to the outlet screw and see if the ground
light comes on.  If it does, the box is grounded, and you should be able
to dig out the ground wire and hook it to the ground terminal of a
new outlet.  I do not recommend the use of a lamp for this purpose.

			Steve

    RE: .16

    	This may be legal in the NEC but it is NOT legal for Mass. The Mass
    code states,

    	"ART 210-7(d) Exception. Revise the exception by deleting the last
    sentence and adding the FPN as follows:

    		(FPN): Other than ground-fault circuit-interrupter type
    receptacles, this exception is not intended to permit the use of
    grounding receptacles as replacements where no grounding means exist
    within the receptacle enclosure, even where they are protected by a
    ground-fault circuit-interrupter type of receptacle on the line side."


    	This is the exception from the NEC that must be revised for Mass.

    	"ART. 210-7(d) Exception. Where a grounding means does not exist in
    the receptacle enclosure either a nongrounding or a ground-fault
    circuit-interrupter-type of receptacle shall be used. A grounding
    conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault
    circuit-interrupter-type receptacle. Existing nongrounding-type
    receptacles shall be permitted to be replaced with grounding-type
    receptacles where supplied through a ground-fault
    circuit-interrupter-type receptacle."


    	This means that if one lives out side of Mass then you can install
    a GFI receptacle and feed grounding type receptacles, without a
    grounding conductor, through the GFI. However if you live in Mass, you
    must install GFI receptacles in each location that you want to install
    a grounding type receptacle without a grounding conductor.


    		CB

  Don't forget that you can still install non-grounding (two-pin)
  receptacles on a GFI-protected circuit in MA. And this is more common,
  since it's way too expensive to install GFI receptacles everywhere in
  an older house. But then you'll need to "adapt" three-pin plugs with
  either pliers or an adapter. 

  The MA code, in reality, provides no additional safety over the NEC.
  In addition, if it encourages some people to adapt their three-pin
  plugs with pliers, it will ultimately result in less safety.

    	I think what the writers (or is it the union) want to do is
    encourage the state (electricians, home owners, inspectors) to upgrade
    the existing systems by providing a grounding conductor to the
    receptacles. This would provide a ground at the receptacle. It also
    keeps the union halls empty.

    	One thing to remember, if there is no ground in the enclosure,
    installing a "grounding adapter" will do nothing to provide a ground,
    since there wasn't one there to begin with. My suggestion is if you are
    a homeowner, upgrade your system. This will provide better safety for
    you and your family. I would suggest against using the armor covering
    on BX for a ground. With a high resistance ground, the armor will act
    like a heater (the armor also has a high resistance as compared to
    solid copper). Many electrical fires have been caused by this. The
    armor can get "red hot", this is something one should avoid, since it
    runs throughout the house between ceilings, partitions, and other
    spaces that collect dust and wood shavings. 

    	If you live in an apartment, there isn't much you can do. By
    raising a "big stink" with your landlord, may create more problems than
    you already have. This is an area that if you can afford newer
    construction, then go for it. If not, they make GFI adapters, their not
    cheap, but it may save your life. However, I wouldn't suggest putting
    one on the refrigerator, sometimes these are over sensitive, and you
    could come home to a fridge full of rotten food. The most important
    place to have an adequate ground is in the bathroom, kitchen, work
    shops, and outside. Most of these areas require GFI protection in new
    construction. And rightfully so. In Most of the other areas in your
    house/apt most of the equipment you will be using will only have a 2
    wire cord anyway. I am talking lamps, stereos, VCR's, ect... Allot of
    the newer TV's and the like are coming through as double insulated.
    They only need a 2 wire cord if so provided, and since most of the
    cabinets are plastic now, they are half way there.
    	
    	I guess the bottom line is, there is no easy fix (unless the
    enclosure already has ground and it tied in yet).

    		CB

    	For anyone who questions the use of the three prong plug (as in
    .13) I respectfully submit the following. 
    	A couple of years ago my wife and I were at my parents' summer home
    for a weekend. My wife was standing at the kitchen sink cleaning up the
    dinner dishes. Suddenly she complained that the kitchen faucet was
    giving her a mild electrical shock when she touched it. Yeah, right!
    was my first reaction but I suddenly realized that she was in a
    potentially dangerous situation and I instructed her to just back away
    from the sink. I went over to the sink and put my hand on the faucet.
    No shock so I went and got my VOM which I happened to have in the car.
    I measured for voltage between the faucet and the drain on the sink,
    nothing, I was leaning over the counter playing with the faucet when
    suddenly I got a shock. I realized that while my right hand was on the
    faucet, my left hand was on the metal strip that ran around the edge of
    the formica counter. I measured between the metal strip and the faucet
    and measured about 40 VAC. I followed the metal strip around the
    counter and at one end found that the refridgerator was pushed up
    against the strip. Pushing the refridgerator away, made the potential
    dissappear between the strip and the faucet. Following that up, I went
    over to the fridge, pulled it out and unplugged it. Bingo, the
    previous owner of the fridge (it was bought second hand) used a pair of
    pliers as his adapter and had removed the ground prong. Going down to
    the hardware store and buying and installing a new three prong plug
    solved the problem. I don't know why it did, I half expected the fridge
    to blow a fuse when I plugged it in but it didn't. I can only guess
    that this was a normal condition that the ground was supposed to take
    care of. I can only think about how bad it would have been if it had
    been a short to the cabinet of the fridge and my wife had put her hands
    in the water.
    
    Barry
    
    

    This is slightly off track, but has anyone been in LKG2 (Littleton, MA)
    in the small copy centers (4 - 6 on each floor) where everyone sets up
    the coffee clubs?
    The building is new construction - maybe finished 3 years ago. But
    what's amazing is that some of the copy centers have an outlet (not
    GFI) right over the sink! (This is a definite on the 2nd floor where
    I worked).
    Isn't that illegal since it's so many feet within a water supply?
    		Cindy
    

    	Cindy,

    	You bring up a good point. However, since the sink is NOT located
    in a "dwelling unit" the receptacle is NOT required to be GFCI
    protected. In fact, if you had a slop sink in a small room in your
    house, and did not have a toilet, shower, or tub in the same room, And
    had a receptacle installed at the sink. That receptacle would NOT be
    required to be GFCI protected. They MUST be installed in bathrooms
    (everywhere in the state of MA), or in kitchens in DWELLING UNITS.
    Since the area you described is neither a kitchen nor a bath room it
    dose not require to be GFCI protected. 

    	I feel that these SHOULD be protected. Just because the law doesn't
    require us to, professionals (electricians in this instance) SHOULD take
    it upon themselves to see a potential problem, and use their judgment
    accordingly. If that had been my job, it would have been done. But it
    the world of the LOW BID CONTRACTOR this is what we've got to deal
    with.
    
    
    		Cary

    I believe there are GFCI's that are located where the normal curcuit
    breakers are.  I think I saw these on This Old House.
    
    Kevin
    

    Of course, it might be the case that the receptacles you mentioned
    really ARE GFCI protected, either via a GFCI breaker or via the
    "feed-through" (LOAD) connection on some OTHER GFCI receptacle.
    The latter is very common in homes; put a GFCI receptacle in one
    bathroom, and run all other bathroom receptacles off the LOAD
    terminals of the GFCI.
    
    In any case, going the "extra mile" and using proper judgement
    as Cary mentioned he would do is the mark of a true professional.

While we're on the subject of plugs and stuff, I have a 100' extension cord
in the garage and the ground plug came out of it.  Are replacement plugs
safe?  I'd rather not toss this cord if I can just cut off the bad plug and
put on a new one.

Dave

>While we're on the subject of plugs and stuff, I have a 100' extension cord
>in the garage and the ground plug came out of it.  Are replacement plugs
>safe?

      There  are two type of replacements.  The cheaper kind has a piece
      of cardboard that slips over the prongs to cover the terminals  to
      which  the  wires attach.  In my opinion these are NOT safe.  They
      are also not permitted by OSHA  in  situations  where  OSHA  rules
      apply.   Beyond  that, I am not certain of the circumstances under
      which they are or are not legal.
      
      The  other  type is called, if memory serves, "blind front".  This
      types requires that you remove one or more screws, usually  2,  to
      disassemble the plug.  You must disassemble the plug to get at the
      terminal screws when you attach or detach  the  plug  to/from  the
      cord.   This  type  is  OK by OSHA, and it IS safe, in my opinion,
      assuming you connect it properly.
      
      So,  get  yourself  a  UL  listed, blind front plug and install it
      carefully and your extension cord will be as good as new.

      Don't  forget:   White  wire to the white (silver) terminal; Black
      wire to the black, copper or brass terminal; Green or bare wire to
      the  ground  terminal (usually green).  If you transpose the black
      and white wires your cord is NOT safe!  (This applys to all  power
      cords with grounding or polarized plugs.)

Off to Home Depot tonight.......

Dave

    The orginal note is very old but I had the same problem not to
    long ago and the solution was very simple!
    
    My light went out, so I bought a new light and put it in - still not
    working...........so I unplugged the fridge, removed the bulb and
    with a small screw driver bent the little tab that is supose to come
    in contact with the end of the light bulb out a little.  I replaced
    the bulb in the socket, plugged the fridge back in and presto the 
    light came on! (and went off when I shut the door!)
    
    It's worth a shot, takes about 5 seconds and saves ripping things
    apart!
    
    Kathy 

My fridge has been collecting water in the bottom off and on for some time.
The hose in the back was not blocked, and I tried to clean the connection with
a Q-tip. The gaskets around the edge seem nice and secure. 
It seems that there is "air space" between the bottom of the freezer and the
top of the fridge and this is where the water is coming from. There is a little
bit of play on the inside sides and if I press on them the water drips quite a
bit. There is a plastic molding along the front top and if I pull on that, alot
of water spills.  This is happening when I open the door, also.

I noticed that there are vents in the front, bottom part of the freezer but
they seem nice and clear, too.

Any ideas?
Judy 

    I just had what sounds like the same problem.  Most of the drains,
    connections, etc, etc, etc seemed clear and fine.  It turned out to be
    a small piece of ice up in the drain piping between the refrigerator
    and freezer sections.  A little work with a screwdriver and a wire
    coathanger provided the solution.

    
    Can anyone comment on .36?  In .37, he just replaced the fridge.
    
    I have the same problem with water condensing somewhere and dripping
    on the floor.  This only happens during the summer and probably
    has something to do with the fact that I don't have air conditioning
    in my house.  There is a copper tube in the back of the fridge that
    has ice frozen on it, sometimes it melts and drips on the floor.
    
    The worst problem is the drip pan overflowing.  I find that about
    every other day I need to get a siphon and drain it out and that
    helps a lot.  Otherwise I spend a lot of time mopping up and it's
    really starting to get to me.
    
    Can anyone help me with this?  Please?  If so, keep in mind that
    my knowledge of refrigerators is extremely limited.  In fact, I
    picked up the term "drip pan" from .36.  Before that it was just
    "that thing in the bottom that collects water."
    
    Thanks,
    Helen

    re: drip pan overflowing
    
    Some refrigerators have a heating coil that warms the drip tray to
    hasten evaporation.  You may have an electrical problem related to
    this.  Others blow the warmed air (warmed by blowing thru the
    condenser) over the drip tray.  Maybe you have a air flow blockage.
    
    re: water condensing outside of refrigerator
    
    Some refrigerators have a switch inside that has two (or so) settings
    with names like (humidity on outside of fridge) and (energy saver).
    
    Rich
                                                         

	I started my 15 cu. ft. chest freezer a couple of days ago,
	after letting it sit in the garage for 5 years.

	It cools, but it doesn't freeze.  Lowest temp was about 35F.

	Ice forms on the inside walls, and the heat dumpers on the 
	outside get warm, but it just can't cool off enough.  (The
	motor keeps running.)

	The gasket is tight.

	Any thoughts on what I ought to do before calling a repair
	person?  I don't have refrigeration tools, so I can't check
	the "charge", or whatever the name is for how much coolant
	is in the machine.

	It's a Bradford, circa 1973.  Probably Freon-cooled.  No fancy
	defrost timers, or complicated stuff.  ... just a compressor and
	a thermostat.

	Regards, Robert.

	PS  Should this be in note 1971, "Refrigerator not cool enough"?

    Well, if it makes ice, it's at least down to 32.  I'd try turning the
    thermostat back and forth a few times, then leave it at its coldest
    setting overnite with a couple milk jugs of water in it and see what
    happens.  If it still doesn't get cold, call a repair place...
    
    Willie

    Also try cleaning the coils on the back of machine; if they have
    a built-up layer of dust that will impede heat transfer.  After
    5 years in a garage, any traces of oil or grease on the coils
    would have picked up any available dust.  A quick vacuuming MAY
    suffice, or you may have to clean with a good degreaser.

    
    I need information on refridgerator repair in the Leominster/Fitchburg
    area. Does anyone know of someone in the area who does in-home repairs.
    
    The freezer section is leaking water into the bottom section of the
    refridgerator.  
    
    Any help will really be appreciated.
    Thanks,
    John
    

re:-1,

It might be worth looking into the problem yourself before 
calling a service person. The problem sounds like a plugged drain 
pipe that is sometimes found in older refrigerators such as 
those from Sears. The pipe is intended to drain the moisture 
generated by the freezer's automatic defrost cycle to the bottom of the 
unit where the compressor is located. Once the moisture gets to 
the compressor area, it evaporates into the atmosphere.

Ordinarily, there is a plastic funnel like attachment located at 
the top of the refrigerator section that drains the freezer 
located above. The funnel section is normally secured by a couple 
of screws. I hope this might provide some help to you.

Good luck-

Joe

    I agree with .-1.  Look into it.  Also, there is a drain that is
    supposed to let the water drip out into an evaporating pan below the
    fridge.  First check the evaporating pan.  Remove the bottom grille,
    and look inder the fridge with a light.  Be careful, when I
    "discovered" the pan on my fridge, it was very full of water with the
    most interesting life forms floating about.  It may be a good idea to
    have an exit path to the outdoors or toilet cleared and ready for the
    run...  the odor on mine was awful once the "skin" on the water was
    broken.  After the pan is drained, put it back, and remove the drawers. 
    There should be a hole of some sort covered by a little plastic thing
    that is supposed to prevent large food items from clogging the hole. 
    Remove the plastic thing and try to clean out the hole with some pipe
    cleaners or a small brush (like the ones grocery stores sell for
    cleaning percolator tubes).  Interesting stuff will come out of the
    hole as well.  You might want to pour a little lysol or water with
    bleach into the hole to kill what can't be scrubbed off.  When you can
    get water to flow freely into the pan, empty it again, clean it, and
    vacuum the area under the fridge... there will be lots of dust bunnies
    under there.

        Is this per chance a new (less than one year) Amana?  If
    so, it highly likely that the freezer drain is frozen.  We
    had that problem.  Fortunately is was a free fix.  Amana
    error.


    Peter Duke

    thanks for the replies, but I'm not sure how to go about checking this.
    
    The only skrews I saw were inside the bottom section of the
    refridgerator on the top.  So if I understand the instructions I
    should remove the skrews and the panel then look for a plugged drain.
    
    Is this the way I should approach the problem???
    
    regards, John
    

    
    I just fixed my refrig. for ice build up in freezer.  It was
    the problem of thermostat broken.  Since I didn't know where is the
    timer or what it looks like, I called GE service to fix it.
    
    It was rather simple to fix it.  But they charge me $170 for less
    than half hour work including the time to de-ice.  I think the
    charge is high.  I believe local service shop might be cheaper.
    
    Anyway my GE refrig is only five years old, the thermostat has a pre-
    mature death I believe.  I don't know why a thermostat has anything
    to do with the de-frost.  It was a device behind the freezer.
    
    Just provide this for general information.

    I have the same problem with my freezer, but the coils are internal. 
    I've decided that a repairman is the way to go, but I don't know any
    in the Leominster area.  Any recommendations?
    
    Thanks,
    	    JAM

    I have a Fridgidaire refridg/freezer that was left in my basement when 
    I moved into my house.  I think it only needs a little work to get it
    working again.
    
    When I plug it in, the motor runs nicely, but I get hissing out of the
    freezer.  There are what look to be coolant "ducts" all along the walls
    of the freezer, and upon close inspection, one section of it is
    nicked, probably letting the freon or whatever out (please no comments
    on the ozone, the freezer came to me like this!). 
    
    So my question:  can I repair this myself?  I went to the library,
    looked at appliance repair books, and all I could find when cooling
    systems are involved is "call your repairman".
    
    I could get some epoxy, or whatever for the duct (small nick, 
    aluminum).  How to recharge?  Or do I do as the book says?
    
    Thanks.

    
    We had a used refrigerator recharged about 10 years ago. They just
    patched in a section of tubing that had a valve on it.
    
    But...  That was long before the dangers of CFCs were known. The rules
    for automibile A/C recharging have certainly changed since then and it
    wouldn't surprise me if the same is true for appliance repair. 
    
    In any case, the fix didn't last very long. So if you can find an
    appliance repair shop who'll do it, you might also want to do a 
    thorough pressure test of the whole system before putting in new
    refrigerant.
    
    By the way... I've heard that a new generation of
    environmentally-friendly auto air conditioners is about to appear. Is
    this simply a new working fluid for the same old systems or an entirely
    new system? If it's the former, that might also provide an answer to
    Bob's basenote.
    
    JP

No, you can't repair it yourself without expensive equipment.  Call
a qualified repair person.

There are a number of schemes for more environmentally-friendly cooling
systems.  Some use a different type of coolant which doesn't harm the
ozone layer, but it does contribute to smog, so it's not perfect.   You'll
probably see more of these in the future.

Pretty soon, the average person won't be able to buy Freon-12 refrigerant -
in many states, you can't now.

			Steve

    This is not an easy or inexpensive repair.
    
    First, the  leak in  the evaporator must be repaired. There are two
    ways to do that, one is to silver solder the leak, that's if the  leak
    is not is a position where the evaporator (the cooling coils) will act
    as a heat sink, which is the way in most freezers. The second solution
    is to use an epoxey designed for freezer repairs, but the problem is
    that due to expansion and contraction the epoxey is installed on a cold
    unit, and the unit can never be shut off. Since the gas is gone, the
    unit cannot be cooled so that the epoxey can be used.
    
    Now for the really good news, since the compressor has been without gas
    for a prolonged period (more than a month is a risk) it is highly
    likely that oil has been contaminated by condinsation forming acid, and
    distroying the compressor (new ones around $200 +).
    
    Replaceing the compressor, exacuateing the system (3 times) and
    rechargeing with gas is 3 to 4 hrs , plus the original repair, est 1hr,
    with materials of around $250 (compressor, dryer, and gas). Labor $35.
    
    Now you know why the thing was left in the basement. My advice, send it
    to the dump.
    
    Les
    

RE:                    <<< Note 4623.3 by AKOCOA::LIBBY >>>
    
>    Now for the really good news, since the compressor has been without gas
>    for a prolonged period (more than a month is a risk) it is highly
>    likely that oil has been contaminated by condinsation forming acid, and
>    distroying the compressor (new ones around $200 +).

I have a refrigerator/freezer which recently stopped outputting enough cold 
at the highest setting to keep stuff in the freezer frozen. 

   1)	If I don't attend to repair soon will the compressor become 
	contaminated? Or is that just if the pressure system has been
	compromised?

   2)   What is the likey cause of a refrigerator gradually loosing it?

>I have a refrigerator/freezer which recently stopped outputting enough cold 
>at the highest setting to keep stuff in the freezer frozen. 
>
>   1)	If I don't attend to repair soon will the compressor become 
>	contaminated? Or is that just if the pressure system has been
>	compromised?

When the gas pressure in the sealed system drops, at some point air is drawn
into the system. The drop in Freon reduces the heat absorbsion (cooling)
capacity. The air (more accurately the moisture in the air)that is drawn 
into the system combines with the Freon and the compressor oil to form an acid.
This acid attacks the compressor motor windings, and causes more acid, putting
the compressor into a self destruct cycle. 
>
>   2)   What is the likey cause of a refrigerator gradually loosing it?

The most common cause for a refrigerator to lose gas is that food has decayed
in the freezer compartment and eaten a hole into the aluminum cooling tubes.
This happen most often with units that have been turned off, and not cleaned
out, or where the units have defrosted enough to allow the scraps to decay.

Another cause is just age, there a multiple joints in the system, and over time
leaks do occur.

IMPORTANT:

THE MOST COMMON CAUSE OF REDUCED COOLING CAPACITY IS DIRT !!

Before I did any contemplating about repairs, I would pull the refrig out from
the wall, and get down on my knees and clean the evaporator coils and 
compressor area under the refrig. 

At the rear on the bottom, most likely covered by a piece of cardboard like
material is the access to the compressor pan (this is held in by a couple
of screws, and can be removed if require, but be careful and don't force
it) REMOVE THE COVERING AND CLEAN EVERYTHING.Remember to pull the plug first.
Then go around front and clean under there also (look first, there is a
pan there to catch the condensation, make sure you put it back in it's
place after cleaning or you will have water running out on the floor from
under the refrig.

If after cleaning the unit it doesn't cool, then consider having the Freon
charge checked (estimated $35 - $50 for labor plus materials).

Good Luck  

PS: It's a good idea to pull the cover off your window Air Conditioner and
clean the coils there on a yearly basis, a clean unit it more efficient, and
will run cheaper, and live longer.

Thanks,

 I'll try a thorough cleaning and check the for signs that any of the tubes 
have been compromised. Then, if that doesn't improve matters, I'll call someone 
in to run pressure checks...

Mike


                      <<< Note 4623.5 by AKOCOA::LIBBY >>>
                            -< More Fridge Answers >-


>I have a refrigerator/freezer which recently stopped outputting enough cold 
>at the highest setting to keep stuff in the freezer frozen. 
>
>   1)	If I don't attend to repair soon will the compressor become 
>	contaminated? Or is that just if the pressure system has been
>	compromised?

When the gas pressure in the sealed system drops, at some point air is drawn
into the system. The drop in Freon reduces the heat absorbsion (cooling)
capacity. The air (more accurately the moisture in the air)that is drawn 
into the system combines with the Freon and the compressor oil to form an acid.
This acid attacks the compressor motor windings, and causes more acid, putting
the compressor into a self destruct cycle. 
>
>   2)   What is the likey cause of a refrigerator gradually loosing it?

The most common cause for a refrigerator to lose gas is that food has decayed
in the freezer compartment and eaten a hole into the aluminum cooling tubes.
This happen most often with units that have been turned off, and not cleaned
out, or where the units have defrosted enough to allow the scraps to decay.

Another cause is just age, there a multiple joints in the system, and over time
leaks do occur.

IMPORTANT:

THE MOST COMMON CAUSE OF REDUCED COOLING CAPACITY IS DIRT !!

Before I did any contemplating about repairs, I would pull the refrig out from
the wall, and get down on my knees and clean the evaporator coils and 
compressor area under the refrig. 

At the rear on the bottom, most likely covered by a piece of cardboard like
material is the access to the compressor pan (this is held in by a couple
of screws, and can be removed if require, but be careful and don't force
it) REMOVE THE COVERING AND CLEAN EVERYTHING.Remember to pull the plug first.
Then go around front and clean under there also (look first, there is a
pan there to catch the condensation, make sure you put it back in it's
place after cleaning or you will have water running out on the floor from
under the refrig.

If after cleaning the unit it doesn't cool, then consider having the Freon
charge checked (estimated $35 - $50 for labor plus materials).

Good Luck  

PS: It's a good idea to pull the cover off your window Air Conditioner and
clean the coils there on a yearly basis, a clean unit it more efficient, and
will run cheaper, and live longer.

I had an ancient fridge that wouldn't keep the freezer section cold enough.
The "fix" was to replace the door seals, an easy job for a DIYer.

You can check the door seals by closing the door on a $1 bill.  If the bill
comes out easily, the seals need replacing.  If the bill won't come out, or
is hard to get out, the seals are fine and your problem is elsewhere.  Make
sure you test the seals in several places.

    I've got a bit of a different problem with my frige.  It is a Hotpoint
    about 5 years old.  The freezer nor the refrigerator is as cold as
    they should be.  There is no water underneath nor condensation in or on
    the unit.  I tried cranking the refrigerator and hitting the door
    switch to test the fan, no fan noise!  However, since the freezer is
    not working I think I'm on the wrong track.  I vacuumed the coils, and
    the rest of the unit that I could reach, a few hours ago.  So far it
    doesn't look like it has helped.  
    
    I'm going to unplug it overnight and see if I get any melting on the
    off chance it is an ice problem.
    
    Any advice when the freezer and refrige aren't performing?
    
    -ken
    

    reply -.1
    
    It was the compressor.  GE Services fixed it under warranty.
    
    -ken

    Our Kenmore over/under refrigerator makes very strangle gurgling
    and bubbling sounds for a while each time the compressor cycles off.
    The sounds seem to be coming from the freezer area, but I can't be any
    more specific than that.
    
    Otherwise the refrig seems to work fine, both the freezer and 
    refrig seem to cool properly.
    
    Is this normal for Kenmores or is it idiciative of a problem??
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jonathan

    	My Kenmore is 5 years old and has been making those same sounds
    since day one. My cats leave the room! Sometimes it sounds like it's
    moaning. It works fine so I leave it alone.
    
    Mike

The problem turned out to be the main wiring harness, which shorted out the 
defrost heating element.  I discovered it by accident: while I was checking 
things out under the fridge, I jostled the harness and noticed the fridge light 
blinked off.  Then I unplugged the fridge, pulled apart a 9-wire plastic 
connecter (the kind you'd expect to see under the hood of your car), and saw it 
was trashed; more than half the male pins were broke or were corroded clear 
off. I just cut off the male and female connectors and wire-nutted each wire 
together individually.

	I suspect that during a past cleaning of the condenser, a wire or two 
got moved into a position such that water would collect on a wire and find its 
way into the connector..

thanks for your replies...

Mike

    I have a Whirpool refrigerator. Lately, when it's been turning on, it
    makes a beeping noise (similiar to the noise a truck makes when backing
    up). It's pretty loud (enuff to wake you up). It doesn't happen all the
    time, but quite a bit. The beeping doesn't last the whole time the frig
    is on either.  Has anyone run into this problem before? Is it safe ?
    I turn it off entirely whe I go to work. The compressor was replaced
    about 1.5 yrs ago. The frig is about 12 yrs. old.
    
    Thanks,
    Judy

Here's a strange one, I dont even know the model but it probably 
doesn't matter...it's about 15 yrs old with the 2 prong plug..

This is a frig that has been in the garage for about 1 year without
using. And I decided to try it out again. It worked fine for 4 years
before I stored it..

When I turn on the refrigerator now it starts up fine, but after a few hours
I get a good shock if I tough the handle.  I DO NOT get a shock in the 
first few hours though. I'm wondering if I am not plugging it in to the 
right plug that can handle it...

Any clues???

- Peter

Frost-free refrigerators have heating elements in various places,
including the doors. Perhaps the wiring that moves with the hinges has
frayed through? Maybe the heating element itself is touching metal on the
door?

    
    .....backup lights come on too....
    
    You might try cleaning around the fan area for
    starters.  Could be the blades have something
    growing on them....
    
    JD

    If the plug is not polarized (one prong bigger than the other) try
    flipping the plug over...
    
    I had an older toaster that would give a good jolt if plugged in 
    incorrectly....   something about the insulation breaking down after
    a number of years.
    
    Definitely not the correct fix, but it may prevent future shocks if it
    is not worth fixing

    At the risk of opening a rathole, the previous reply raises a question.
    What exactly is the purpose of a polarized socket? What does it
    accomplish? 

    A polarized plug ensures that one known wire into the device receives
    the "hot" or live or supply side of the circuit.  The other wire being
    the neutral.  A grounded (3-prong) plug adds the ground and enforces
    polarization as well.
    
    An electrical device should ensure that no dangerous voltage is
    accessible to normal access.  A grounded device provides a safety
    path in case of an accidental short to a metal case.
    
    Some devices that lack metal cases, or are have adequately insulated
    components can pass on the ground connection, but may have internal
    requirements to specify which wire is the hot.  Older TVs and electronic
    devices often fall into this catagory.  But even a simple lamp
    can benefit by putting the hot wire to the switch first (when off
    the wire is less exposed internally) and connecting it to the base
    not the side of the light socket (also limiting shock exposure).
    
    	Dave.

To restate .11: if a lamp is plugged in properly, with a polarized plug,
the socket is electrically inactive when the lamp is switched off:  one
terminal is disconnected and the other is connected to the neutral wire,
which is connected to the ground rod.  So you could stuff your hand into 
the socket (one presumes accidentally) and you wouldn't get hurt.

*However*, if it is an unpolarized plug and it is plugged in backwards,
then the screw part of the light socket is connected to 120V all the time,
no matter whether the lamp is switched on or not.  It isn't too hard to
accidentally touch that when screwing in a light bulb... if you were
touching something grounded with your other hand, it could stop your heart.

A three-prong plug allows exposed metal to be connected to a separate
wire that is connected to the ground rod.  This is safer yet because the
ground wire doesn't have any current through it under normal circumstances,
though it would for the toaster and freezer that are giving shocks.

A "ground fault interrupter" is safer still, because it shuts off the
circuit if much current is going anywhere other than from hot to neutral.
These are required on outlets in wet locations (bathrooms and kitchens).

FYI, places like hospitals have even more careful grounding requirements.
A lot of the rules in the NEC seem to be enforced more laxly in the home
than in businesses, although they've been tightened up a lot for new
construction and renovations.  And I think all lamps now have polarized plugs.

Anyway, turning the plug over could help with the shocky toaster and
freezer by changing the wire that is leaking current to the metal case 
from 120V to 0V.  It's still a scary situation, though -- to keep using
these devices is like ignoring cracks in a supporting beam.

	Luck,
	Larry

    Dead fridge.
    
    	My sister is going to campus and was given a dorm size fridge 
     Unfortunately it does not work. I am trying to find a solution 
     if it won't cost too much to fix I will be interested in getting 
     some help from the pros here. I did plug the fridge and check the
     voltage coming in then there is a choke and a little device there
     that looks like a switch of some sort but the plug that goes to the
     compressor the voltage reads 70 AC it still the compressor did not
     turn on. The make of the fridge is " DELMONICO "
    
    		Any help would be appreciated 
    	
    		Thanks.
    Jean-Gilles
    

    And to state the obvious to most ...
    
    Neutral is connected to ground, in your fuse box in the USA.  Thus
    you won't get a shock normally by touching the neutral conductor,
    but you sure will touching the hot!
    
    Why a separate ground ?  Neutral usually carries a current whereas
    grounds do not.  Thus there is no chance of even a small voltage on the
    ground wire.
    
    Stuart

    Re: .13
    
    Yes tied to ground but not always a simple route
    
    I believe in Sub-panels the neutral is isolated from the equipment safety
    ground in the sub-panel. So all the white wires go to the neutral 
    bus and all the bare wires go to the seperate equipment safety ground bus.
    The neutral from the Sub-panel does tie back to your main panel's neutral 
    bus which is also tied to the equipment safety ground in the main panel
    and the equipment safety ground does have to be tied to ground no
    matter where it is located.
    
    Back on track we also had an old refrigerator in the garage for a long
    time that had a non polarized two prong plug. Well all I can say is it 
    was a good thing it was on a ground fault. My wife ran in from the pool 
    one day to get some refreshments and got zapped when she opened the door. 
    I checked it out and found that the frame was hot. The refrigerator is 
    now history. Playing around with something like that is not worth it. 
    I don't care to think about what might have happened if the ground fault 
    had not tripped or if one of the kids had been going for refreshments. 
    
    BTW concrete = ground 
    
    Don    
                                                             

Both the toaster problem and the refrigerator problem need to be fixed.  An
electrical technician or appliance repairman should have no trouble isolating
the problem with a meter.  The insulation between the wiring in the product 
and the case has failed and needs to be fixed.

Both of these appliances are typically used in an environment where there are
good ground paths (through other appliances or plumbing), and often where
conditions are wet.  A minor shock or tingling can easily become lethal under
slightly different conditions.  Relying on which way the plug is inserted is
bound to result in an accident someday.  Please either fix or destroy these
products.

Bob

    Another purpose of the grounding conductor, in the case of a
    broken hot wire or connection, is to attempt to force the failure of the
    circuit breaker or fuse, by offering a "safe" circuit path to neutral.
    Particularly if a grounded case surrounds all active wiring.
    
    This would draw attention to the failed circuit and hopefully prevent
    the failed device from being used or touched while hot.
    
    Before the invention of GFCIs, this was the best way to prevent a 
    shock hazard of an appliance.  Unfortunately, there are many failure
    modes that will not trip the fuse.
    
    	Dave.

    
    I believe the 'choke and switch' are a relay for the starting winding
    of the compressor.  Only 70V going into the compressor?  There is a
    large drop somewhere or you were inadvernantly looking at something
    other than the line coming.  Did it make any noise, like a hum?
    
    
    Peter Duke
    264-5566

    there is no hum at all,no noise what so ever,I am going to check it 
    again to see if the switch and the choke are ok.
    	Thanks 
    frantz
    223-3605
    

    I am looking for a place where I can buy a parts for my dead fridge.
    The relay is ok but the choke went bad.is there any place that I can
    find this particular part.
    	Thanks in advance.
    	Frantz.
    

    RE: .-1
    
    You didn't say where you are (but I assume somewhere near the Mill).
    There's a place in Framingham at the intersection of Rt 126 and Rt 135
    right next to the train tracks called AAA Appliance Parts (879-4006).
    They've always had the little nuts/bolts/belts and other gizmos that
    I've needed to fix my appliances.  If you have a part number, then
    can probably tell you over the phone.  And they're open in the
    morning on Saturday too.
    
    -al

    I live in R.I, is there any other parts store near  between worcester 
    and R.I.  
    	Thanks for the info.
    F. Jean-Gilles
    
    

Look in the yellow pages under Appliances-Household-Major-Supplies & Parts.

    Late in the day Friday I got a call at work from my daughter saying that 
    the refrigerator was not working.  Said when she opened the doors the 
    light came on but nothing was cold in either the freezer or refrigerator 
    section.  I never needed to play with the frige before and since it was 
    late in the day and I wouldn't have time to figure out the problem and 
    get to a parts store before they closed and everything was melting, 
    defrosting or warming I.....I..... I called the Sears repairman.  There I 
    said it.  I'm not proud of it but it had to be done.  I feel like one of 
    the people on tv admitting that they like Frosted Flakes.  I wouldn't
    feel so bad if it wasn't so easy to fix.  In any case, I figured I'd enter 
    what he did here in the hopes of helping some other DIY'er maintain their 
    pride.
    
    	The problem was the defrost timer.  They way he diagnosed it was to
    take the cover off the timer and turn it manually with a screwdriver. 
    As soon as he turned past the defrost cycle point the compressor started 
    right up.  Threw in a new timer and everything was fine - after I gave him
    $85 bucks for the late call!  He said it was important to get the
    right replacement timer.  There are a lot of different ones that have
    different cycles - some are 8 hour some are 12 hour etc.  And when he
    replaced it he adjusted it to the beginning of the cycle.  That way the
    Frige wouldn't shut off midway to cooling back down.
    
    George

    In the house I moved into, there's a "spare" refrig in the basement.
    
    I plugged it in to try it out.  Motor ran, but a hissing noise from the
    freezer section.  Closer inspection revealed some small pin holes in 
    the freezer "ducts" - I suppose those are the condenser or evaporator
    or whatever ducts, around the size of a pencil wide, looking kindof
    like a circuit board.  
    
    Izthat where the freon or whatever circulates?  Can the pinholes be
    plugged and the fridge recharged?  Or would it be better to pay
    the small fee and take it to the dump...
    
    Thanks
    
    Bob

    The compressor on my 8 yr old Frigidaire stopped working yesterday
    with no forewarning...   The fan does work, the compressor tries to
    work, comes on for a second or two, then shuts down.  From reading
    the previous notes, it sounds like the defrost timer or thermostat
    is not working.   Does this sound right ??  I am assuming the defrost
    timer is freezer section, behind the dial for the control on the
    back wall of the freezer, is this correct ??   I cannot seem to 
    be able to remove the floor of the freezer.   Also, would the 
    thermostat be in the refrigerator section, behind the temp control ??
    What does the defrost timer and therostat look like ??
    
    Thanks in advance...
    
    Steve
      

    Well, I found the defrost timer and thermostat last nite...   I turned
    the defrost timer manually, the compressor still would not come on,
    merely tries to start, then shuts off.  
    
    Any ideas ??
    
    	*  what would cause the compressor not to run.  as mentioned, it
    	   clicks on for a second then shuts off, thereafter it merely
    	   clicks.
    
        *  since the compressor did not turn on when I manually turned the
    	   defrost timer, can I assume that the defrost timer/motor are
    	   not at fault ??
    
    	*  How does one check the thermostat, would/could this be the
           problem ??
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

    I had one like this last year.  The compressor just would not stay
    on.  I checked all the thermostats, the defrost timer, etc, and all
    chceked out OK.  Looking under the (Amana) refrigerator I saw that
    the fan that blew air across the coils and the compressor (for
    cooling) was stopped, and thus the compressor was overheating and the
    overtemp protection was kicking in.
    
    Looking at the fan I thought I saw a clump of lint blocking the fan
    from turning.  After reaching in and pulling it out I found, to my
    great surprise, that it wasn't lint, but the dessicated, decapitated
    body of a mouse who had made the mistake of trying to run through the
    fan!  (The head was lying nearby!)  Seems like one for the record
    books to me.
    
                                Andy Ostrom

    Back to the problem compressor.  I had a service guy come out on Friday
    and he initially thought the problem was the relay to the compressor.
    He put in a temporary heavy duty relay (did not have mine in stock),
    but the compressor shut down again after 5 minutes, very hot to the
    touch.  He said the compressor was shot, not good news.  Since this 
    is only a 7 yr old fridge, I thought I would call Frigidaire to let
    them know I was a tad unhappy.  Well, a little to my surprise, they
    will give me a compressor, I will pay for installation.  
    
    Now, I am a little concerned about the freon, with all the publicity
    lately..   From what I understand, this is done in the house, but
    how is it done, is it safe, what kind of questions do I ask about
    the process ???  How do I know the guy knows what he is doing ??
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

Most refrigerators and freezers come with a 10-year parts warranty on the
cooling system (something the stores pushing extended warrantees don't want
you to know.)  You should ask the technician how he will capture the 
refrigerant; most should have equipment to do this.

			Steve

   I've read  all  the  notes on refrigerators, and this string seems the most
   applicable.

   I had a guy from Mass Save come out and inspect the energy efficiency of my
   home.  During the visit, he turned off the refrigerator to be able to clean
   out  the  coolant  coils  on  the  bottom  of  the  fridge with his special
   "refrigerator coil brush." The next day I opened the refrigerator and found
   everything warm - he forgot to turn the refrigerator back on!!

   That was bad enough - but now upon turning the fridge back on - the freezer
   section  does  not  get cold enough.  At the absolute highest settings, the
   freezer  _is_  able to keep things mostly frozen but some things like pasta
   is  mushy  though.   It's been three weeks now, so it's not still trying to
   bring  back  the original temperature.  And I'm sure running at the highest
   temperature settings isn't very efficient on my electric bill.

   What could  have  happened?  This  is  only an 8 year old fridge and it was
   running  fine  beforehand  (at  normal settings).  Is it freon that escaped
   after  only  one  24-hour  period  of  being off? I seem to remember an old
   saying  about  "don't  ever  turn  your fridge off because it'll break" but
   forgot what it is that might break down (if it's still true today)...

   Maybe I  can  get Mass Save to compensate me somehow for leaving the fridge
   off on me? What's the fix? How much will it cost?

   -Erik

   PS- A  Mass Save person left the refigerator off at a friend's house in the
   same town about a week or two earlier too, probably the same guy...

    Yeah, that's where the freon circulates, probably called the 
    "evaporator" if it jives with the parts in my car...
    
    It was free? Pay to get rid of it.
    
    Edd

    
    Assuming that "the absolute highest settings" means on the thermostat
    control...
    
    Could it be that you just have to rebalance the fridge/freezer?
    
    If the unit is now operating more efficiently, that means it's
    operating a smaller percentage of the time. I think this also means
    the freezer will undergo larger temp swings, and may need more cooling
    relative to the main box to keep a consistently acceptable temp.
    

    Anyone out there speak "refrigerese"?
    
    Our refrigerator has developed an "interesting" sound.  At odd times
    it will make a very short "whistling" sound (decreasing in pitch);
    the best analogy I can come up with is a half-second segment of the
    whistling sound made by a bomb falling (!).  It's hard to tell, but
    the noise seems to be coming from the thermostatic control located
    in the top of the refrigerator section (a freezer/fridge side-by-side).
    
    Other than the odd sound, the refrigerator seems to be working fine.
    
    Any ideas?  Is our 'fridge posessed?

	    Our refridgerator makes some unusual sounds once in a while.
	The owners manual stated that the unit may make usnusual sounds
	but that is normal.  It works fine, so I ignore it.

					Tim

    My fridge use to make a whistling sound when the fan in the freezer
    started, and this fan would squeal also. It finally was squealing so
    much I replaced it and it doesn't make the whisling noise anymore
    either.
    

Could be the bearings also....  Mine did that when I moved into the house.
My refrigerator had been in storage for 5 years -- was only 6 months old 
when I moved!

It sounded like there was an animal just about to die in the freezer....

dana

    This has probably nothing to do with the base note but I thought I'd
    pass it along anyway. Our fridge makes a whistling noise similar to the
    whistling wind during a storm. It only makes it during hot summer days
    immediately after closing the door. My guess is that during opening and
    closing, the cold air drifts out and the hot air drifts in. As the hot
    air cools, it contracts causing air to be sucked in through the door
    seals making a brief whistling sound. I figured it's part of nature and
    proper operation of the fridge.
    
    Jim
    

          My refrigerater has a bit lower tone to its voice.  Almost 
     imperceptible moans seem to come from the coils usually while I am
     watching a particularly scary movie in the next room.

          The owners manual mentions them as normal operating sounds.
     They occur about 3 minutes after a normal compressor cycle.

                                    Greg

     Mods, this didn't seem to fit in any of the existing refrigerator or
freezer topics; if you don't agree, feel free to move it.  
     We have an old refrigerator in our basement that we use for soft
drinks, wine coolers, beer, extra gallons of milk, and overflow from our
kitchen refrigerator.  We don't use the small freezer compartment at all. 
But that doesn't stop it from frosting up and coated with ice, which
requires defrosting.  The freezer does not have a separate thermostat that
can be set.
     I'd like to just rid myself of the freezer compartment.  Is there any
way of dismantling the freezer compartment (or at least disabling it)
without releasing the refrigerant?

Clay

It's often the case that the "freezer compartment" walls are the cooling
coils, so you can't really take it apart.

				Steve

    Simple answer...no.
    
    Marc H.

    If it is like many refrigerators, the refrig part actually receives its
    cold from the freezer part. I do not believe that there are separate
    cooling coils, but rather a certain amount of the 'cold' is  allowed to
    leave the freezer and get to the refrig. 

    
    Might be easer to buy a new, smaller unit that 
    is cheeper to run and will save you money in
    the long run......
    
    JD

Thanks for the replies.  I did some nosing around last night, and it appears 
that .1 -- .3 are right on, and .4 probably is.

Clay

    Mass Electric will pick up your old one for free.  They refurbish and
    recycle them - not sure what they do with them after.
    
    Another suggestion for your old fridge - instead of the hassle of
    selling it - Donate it to a shelter or a halfway house.  Both places
    help to get homeless folks apartments and they can always use major
    appliances.  Most places will pick them up from your home.  And this
    would be a great tax deduction.
    
    Joyce
    
     

    RE: .6
    Only if you are a Mass Electric Customer
    
    Marc H.

	I thought I'd enter this here just in case anyone else runs into it. 

	Our refrigerator  and  freezer were not keeping sufficiently cold (just
	barely),  even though we had it running on the highest setting.  Then a
	person from Mass-Save came out to do an energy audit and he recommended
	that  he  clean  the  condenser  coils  for  us  with  his special long
	refrigerator  cleaning  brush.   He  turned  off  the  refrigerator and
	cleaned  out the condenser coils.  After that the refrigerator was even
	WORSE, it wouldn't even get cool.

	I thought  what must have happened was that the freon had escaped while
	the refrigerator was off and that we now needed a freon recharge.

	After reading here that 99.9% of what is needed to fix the "freezer and
	refrigerator  won't  get  cold"  problem  is  a cleaning and that freon
	hardly  ever escapes, I decided to clean it again myself.  Nirvana was
	found  when  I decided to clean the coils from the back as well as from
	the  front.   When  I  removed  the panel to the compressor (which was
	pretty  hot),  I noticed a block of foam insulation wedged into the fan
	which  blows on the compressor.  The Mass-Save guy must have knocked it
	down into the fan with his long brush.

	Cheap fix! 

	And now  we get plenty of cold on the lower settings.  All it must have
	needed  beforehand  was  a simple cleaning.  So when in doubt about the
	freon  level,  I  have to restate what's already been said here, do the
	cleaning first.  And also check the compressor fan...  :-)

	-Erik

    
    90% of the problems with a refrig are not the refrigerant charge,
    although 90% of the people calling for service say so.  :^)
    
    Another enemy is plastic wrap ( saran wrap ) which finds it's
    way to clog drains in the freezer compartment of your frost free
    units. With no place for the defrosted water to go, it is soon
    one big block of ice restricting air flow....
    
    Fred

    We have had the drain in the freezer compartment clog up on us
    more than once. It's an old Frigidaire and the appliance repair guy
    recognized the problem immediately. He says all of these models
    do the same thing. What happens is that a chunk of foam insulation
    in the freezer compartment breaks off and clogs the drain. The ice
    builds up and eventually interferes with the fan, which then burns 
    out if you don't notice the annoying sound that is the characteristic
    symptom. 
    
    Maybe .12 has seen this as well.
    
    Lucy

    This is not a recharge question but hey it does refer to my
    refridgerator.
    
    I noticed yesterday a odd sound coming from the back of my fridge.  I
    followed the sound to a small white box at the top on the back side of
    the freezer portion.  The sound is a sort of ticking noise similar to a
    clock.  Inside the freezer opposite the box on the outside is the
    control panel for setting temps.  The sound is rhythmic and regular.
    
    Any ideas as to what's going on?  I'm not shy about unplugging and
    poking around.  
    
    Many thanks,
    
    Marv
    

Marv,

It's the self destruct sequence.  Better get everything else outta the
house!

;-) ;-)

tim

    
    Inside that little cover you'll find the defrost timer.
    They do get a little noisy when worn.
    Suggest you look into getting another one soon.
    
    That is IF that's where the noise is comming from.
    If you have a fan in the freezer compartment, remove
    whatever is covering it and you're liable to find a
    piece of celophane getting hit by the blades. Common
    problem before it plugs up the drain and the unit
    don't cool down at all due to the coils being a block
    of ice, restricting air flow.
    
    Fred

    
    	The seal, or gasket, around my fridge door has become unglued at
    the bottom and I was wondering what I should use to glue it back.  Any
    ideas?  Do I have to buy another gasket and if so, any idea where I
    could buy one?  Also, is this difficult to do?
    
    thanks.
    
    gary.
    

    
    If its an old unit, you might just way to try to glue it back
    on.  Superglue, hybond or some of the silicon adheaves will work.
    Clean it good!
    
    If it newer...well, yellow page, appliance parts store (several in
    Worc., and replace it.....
    
    JD

    
    Are you certain the gasket is held on by an adhesive?
    
    I've yet to see one that is, of course I haven't seen
    them all. :^)
    
    If it is, and has been hanging for awhile, it could very
    well be stretched out. What I'd do, if the rest of the 
    gasket is in excellent condition, is check it's length
    before attempting to put it on with adhesive. You will
    end up with a hump. If it's a bit too long, slice off
    a 1/4 inch with a razor and check for fit.  Then clean
    and lightly sand where the contact cement will go. 
    Wipe the surface of the gasket with rubbing alcohol. It'll
    clean the area and evaporate.  I would put a length of masking
    tape from one side to the other where the bottom of the
    gasket would lay. It's a guideline and once the gasket is on
    the excess glue come off with the tape.  Use a real light
    film on both surfaces.
    
    A helpful hint to readers on refrig door gaskets.
    To keep them looking like new, soft and pliable, at least
    twice a year wash it with IVORY dish soap and rinse good.
    Then take a maybe a cup or so of water as hot as your
    rubber gloved hand can stand it, put a 1/2 teaspoon or
    so of the IVORY (the older white stuff, don't know about the
    new clear one) dish soap and with a sponge rub it into the
    gasket. Keep the sponge hot, do a foot or so at a time.
    Leave it that way.  I've got a GE that we've had for 28
    years now and the gasket on it is like new.
    
    Fred

    You could glue it down with weather-strip adhesive, available at home
    and auto-parts places.  Most are held in place with self-tapping
    screws, however.
    
    I have another gasket question.  Is there any kind of general-purpose
    gasket material available?  My refrigerator is humming along in its
    24th year, but it hums a lot more than I want it to because the door
    gaskets are no longer available and mine consist mainly of duct tape at
    this point, and they leak.
    

    
    Looking in one of the supply house catalogs, about the only thing
    "general purpose" is a heavy duty sponge rubber with an adhesive
    back.  Smallest is 3/8" X 7/8" wide.  The 1/2" thick is available
    in widths from 1.5 to 4".
    
    Bet if you took a piece of the old one to the supply house they'd
    match it for you.  
    
    Fred

    I wouldn't use Superglue.  This type of glue doesn't hold up well to
    humidity or peeling forces.

    	I think that most seals have some some of magnetic material in
    them, so I don't think that the foam rubber seals would do it for you.
    
    	I have the same problem with a Sears unit and someone took the model
    tag off of it and Sears has not been able to reference it by the Model
    and make. I even have the manual for it and still they can't
    cross-reference it.
    
    	Ray

    
      There are LOTS of appliance parts shops the *specialize* in getting
    parts for all makes. There is a Great one in Nashua called Gene's
    Appliance Repair. 603-889-5331 Try them
    
    				Kenny

    	I tried calling the number in the previous note. I was told the
    same thing Sears told me which is, "We need the model # off of the
    serial tag, not the model # of the refrigerator".
    
    	You'd think that Sears Coldspot 16 model 65 would be sufficient,
    but evidently it isn't. The serial tag has a different type of model
    number on it.
    
    	The place I called in the previous note said that they did have a
    universal seal that you could cut to length/width, but they wanted $52
    for it. Considering this is an older frig, it would be more cost
    effective to pick up a newer used frig.
    
    	Ray

    
    
    Ray, how about trying some of that gasket material you 
    would put on the bottom or in a door jam.  It looks something 
    like .....  P  ...where the flat side has tape and the curve
    side compresses.  Its like $3.95 for a 25' roll...??
      
    JD

    	It couldn't hurt I suppose, but as far as I can tell, the initial
    thing that causes the seal to stick to the frig is some type of magnet.
    The manual that I have for the frig indicates some of the features
    (it's probably 20 years old) and indicates that it has a magnetic door
    seal. I assumed this was standard on all refrigeraters.
    
    	Ray 

It's more than just a gasket - you do need the magnet in it, otherwise the door
won't stay closed.  

			Steve

    Well I've read all the replies but I'm not sure which one is
    appropriate to my problem.
    
    My refrigerator seemed to get less and less efficient (ie not cool
    enough) until eventually the divider between the freezer section (on
    top) and the fridge section was hot to the touch. Things were beginning
    to unfreeze in the freezer as well. Also the pump/motor or whatever ran
    continually. It never shut itself off. Well before I went on vacation
    I took all the food out of the unit and tossed it and turned the damn
    thing off.
    
    But now I'm beginning to miss my morning raisin bran. You see no fridge
    = no milk. The good side though is that my electricity bill has gone
    through the floor though. I reckon that continually running motor was
    costing me $30 per month.
    
    So does anybody have an idea on what the problem is. It is a really
    ancient fridge (probably 20 years old). I'd like to repair it if it is
    easy. I presume getting a repair man out would cost $100 plus
    (correct?). If I could get it repaired for $50 or so I'd call out a
    repair man. But since that is expensive I'll have a go myself. So any
    ideas. In summary basic problem is:
    
    	1, Pump ran continually
    	2, Hot to the touch between freezer and fridge
    	3, Food eventually not cold enough
    	4, Used a lot of electricity
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dave

Is it an auto defrost model?  If so, the defrost timer might be stuck in the
defrost phase.  The defroster is a heater - if stuck on it can overpower the
cooling power.

The defrost timer is usual a motor-driven switch.  The Readers Digest Fix It
book has some pictures and trouble-shooting hints - I recommend you get a
copy.

    
    Long distance diagnosis is difficult.
    
    Overheating of the separator between the two compartments soundl
    like the defrost heater high limit is bad.  This shuts the heating
    element off once the coils reach approx. 60 degrees.
    
    You could also have something clogging the freezer drain which is under
    the freezer deck, in the rear.  No, you can't see it.  The panel has to
    be removed.
    
    "IF" the high limit stat isn't allowing the heater to terminate the
    defrost, when the timer does and your compressor starts, the fan
    circuit isn't energized. The high limit stat is sometimes dual function.
    
    Check the condensate pan under the box to see if any water is in it.
    If not, pull it out and find the little hose. Get a piece of tygon hose
    or anykind of hose that will fit in/over it and blow hard into it to 
    clear the drain line.  Mind you, you'll have to run it thru a defrost
    first. Can't blow out a frozen line.  If something did restrict it such
    as wax paper or saran wrap, you'll have to take it apart and remove
    the foreign matter.
    
    For a serviceman to come out and repair it, yes you are looking at
    at least $100.00.  Travel time + parts + time.
    
    Fred
    

    Re .-1
    
    Thanks for the reply. I guess I need a little education on terms. I
    thought that the "compressor" is what circulates the freon and makes the
    fridge code. Ie the compressor is what you hear whirring ie it is the
    motor. But from scanning the previous replies I get the impression that
    the compressor seems to be used to make the fridge hot to defrost it or
    something which is oftwen caused by some broken defrost thingy. Please
    clarify for me.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dave 

    
    The compressor compresses the freon; it also "compresses" the heat
    energy in the freon, making a given volume of freon hotter than it
    was, and hotter than the air outside the refrigerator. The compressed,
    hot freon then moves through an external radiator and throws off some of
    that heat. Next, it passes through an expansion valve (just a restricted
    opening into a larger space) and expands; of course, the heat energy in
    the freon also "expands", so that a given voluem of freon is now cooler
    than it was, and (hopefully) cooler than the freezer. The expanded, cooled
    freon circulates through coils around the freezer and picks up some heat.
    Then it goes back to the compressor, and so on...
    
    Any gas can be used in this cycle; freon happens to be one gas that
    can yield temperature differences under reasonable conditions that are
    large enough to achieve temperatures around 0�F.
    
    When you run this cycle long enough at 0�F, large amounts of ice tend
    to form in the freezer, to the point where it becomes hard to insert an
    ice cube tray. Older refrigerators require manual intervention at this
    point, involving numerous pans of hot water. Contemporary "frost-free"
    refrigerators counter the problem by periodically activating an
    electric heating coil that warms the area around the freezer to just above
    freezing, allowing the frost to melt and drain down a tube (which often
    gets clogged with interesting cellular biology experiments) and into a
    shallow pan under the unit, where warm air from the external radiator
    evaporates it. This defrost cycle can remain on due to a faulty timer,
    effectively defeating all the hard work being done by the freon.
    (Assuming, of course, that after 20 years there's any freon left to do
    all that hard work.)
    

    I am asking this question about a fridge that gives warm air. what
    could it be that is not working properly. Any ideas will help me go
    through debugging the problem.
    		Thank you
    F.J.G.
     

    Warm air on the inside? Or warm air outside? 
    
    Edd

    Inside not cooling at all.
    	Do you think it might the timer!
    

    
    Is the compressor running when you feel warm air?
    
    If not, locate the defrost timer and turn the knob very
    slowly clockwise.  If you only have to turn it a hair
    before hearing the "click" and then the compressor starts
    and the unit shows signs of "old life", let it run for
    3 or 4 hours to cool down.  
    
    Check the wiring diagram on the back of the 'fridge and
    see which color wire (or number) drives the timer motor.
    
    PULL THE PLUG OUT OF THE WALL.
    
    Remove this wire from the timer and put some electrical tape
    around it so it won't short out against anything. Put the unit
    back in service until you're able to obtain a new timer.
    Should it take more than a couple days, once a day turn the
    knob on the timer to defrost for about 15 to 20 minutes.
    Turn it slowly for there isn't much between going into and
    out of - defrost. 
    
    If you have a problem getting a timer, give me the model and
    serial # of the refrig, also any numbers on the timer.
    I have two or three left at home, maybe one'll match up.
    Also the # of terminals on it.
    
    Fred

     I have a new and different reason why my fridge isn't staying cool -- 
the door is open most of the time!!

     The switch that turns the light on and off has become very difficult 
to operate.  It takes significant force to push it in by hand.  If the 
door isn't open wide enough to build up enough momentum to operate the 
switch, the door stays open 1/4" or so.

     Would this be covered under the warranty?  (Fridge was delivered 
around December or January, about 1 year ago.)  Are they going to replace 
the part for free but charge me $45 for labor?

     How would I fix this myself?  The light goes out when the plunger is 
depressed about 1/32", and there is no resistance to do that.  It is the 
next 1/2" that the plunger sticks out that have enough resistance to keep 
the door from closing.  

    
    First off, PULL THE PLUG OUT OF THE WALL.
    
    If the switch has no screws holding it in, place a small
    screwdriver between it and the fridge and pop it out.
    Remove the wires and tape them individually.
    
    I've replaced these with car door switches from the local
    auto parts store.  If it's a different diameter, you should
    be able to get one at an appliance store.  There's nothing
    special about it, except maybe the color.
    
    So, after you've taped the wires individually, tie a string
    to them and push them back in the hole, let the string dangle
    and plug it back in.
    
    Remember to pull the plug first on any appliance when you're
    going to work on it.
    
    Fred

    
    
      The local appliance repair parts store should have the switches in
    stock and it shouldn't be expensive. Do it yourself and stop worrying.
    
    				Kenny

    	If it's still under warranty, call the person you got the frig from
    and ask if this is a free-be. If it is, let them do it.
    
    	Ray

    
    =re:ken
    "shouldnt be expensive"...... famous last words! :)

    
      Yeah, I know. I have replaced the light switches a couple of times
    and they are pretty easy and cheap usually and I don't see good reasons
    why any others should be expensive. (Of course that never stopped
    anybody from making something that *should* be simple and cheap, 
    complicated and expensive) :^)
    
    					Kenny 

    We recently noticed a crack in the floor of our refrigerator liner.
    
    Some item must have fallen out (probably a heavy full jar) and created
    this crack about 1" long.

    I was able to push on the crack and align the separated pieces so now
    there is only a hairline evidence of the crack.  I also placed some
    clear packing tape over the crack.

    I was concerned about cooling loss, but I doubt it could travel through
    the hairline crack and tape.  Any opinions?

    Has anyone had this happen and have you found a way to repair a cracked
    liner in a fridge?  We called Whirlpool and they said that as far as
    they are concerned it is un-repairable.

    Thanks, Mark

    
    The heat gain thru the crack will be next to nothing.
    
    If the appearance or the condition of it bothers you, get some
    epoxy resin.   Warm the area of the crack to room temperature.
    Place scotch tape on both sides of the crack about a 1/2" away.
    Score the area between the tape with about an 80 grit sand paper.
    Mix the resin and hardener per directions and using a small 
    and disposable paint brush, apply the resin to the area between
    the tapes.  Allow to dry, remove tape.  If you don't tell anyone
    it's there, they'll never know it.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Fred

    Wouldn't aquarium sealer work just as well and be less hassle?
    
    Jodi-

    
    I've never used it.
    
    Fred

    Thanks for the advice.  The crack does not bother me as there appears
    to be no actual hole, just a hairline fracture.  It was my wife who
    was really upset about it, but she seems to have forgotten about it.
    Suppose the flooding we had with the ice dams may have had something
    to do with that.
    
    I like the idea of a little resin mix brushed over the area.  Probably
    will not do anything with it for a while.
    
    Thanks for the ideas!  Mark

I need a refrigerator diagnosis.  I have a 10 year old Kenmore
side-by-side that's never had any problems.  Lately, while it's
not even cycling I hear this click followed by a buzz that lasts
3 - 4 seconds and then another click and it stops.  This has been
happening on a regular basis lately.  It never happens while the
motor is running, always in between.  Seems to be working ok, but
I don't want to come home someday and find it dead.
Any ideas?
John

    Sounds like the defrost timer.  That makes a rather noisy
    CLICK when it kicks in and out.  They are usually located
    down by the floor at the front of the frig.  You could take
    a look at it.  They are just a timer that is running.  Yours
    might have a plastic window that you could look through to
    make sure it is turning.
    

Thanks.  How about that 4 second buzz?  Do you think
it means that it's on the verge of failure?  It 
never made this noise before.

    I thought my defrost timer was gonzo.  Here's what happened.
    I noticed that the freezer was running a lot and that the fridge
    was getting warm.  I emptied the freezer, removed the back panel
    and the coil was completely covered with ice.  I used a hair
    dryer to melt the ice.  The fridge then worked for another few
    weeks until the same thing happened.  It turned out that the
    defrost timer was working, but when it went into defrost mode,
    the thermostat clipped on to the coil was broken, so the defrost
    heater never came on, never melted the ice, which led to ice
    buildup.  I had to replace the thermostat.
    
    You can advance the defrost timer yourself (there's a small knob
    you can turn.  I advanced it, watched the defrost heater (which will
    glow red when running) and it never came on.  Replaced the thermostat,
    then advanced the defrost timer and it worked. 

    I suspect that the click/4-second-buzz/click combination is the
    compressor trying to start (but not starting), and the overload switch
    shutting the compressor off.  Eventually, the pressure lets off and the
    compressor gets started.
    
    Mark L.

    I am cross-posting this here:
    
               <<< OCTAVE::DJA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GADGETS.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< Gadgets and Appliances >-
================================================================================
Note 214.18                         Freezers                            18 of 18
RETRET::EINES                                        14 lines  28-FEB-1994 14:36
                          -< Freezing the freezer!? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'd like to resurrect this note!
    
    I just bought a used Sears upright.  Due to space issues (i.e. lack thereof)
    I put it in an unheated shed/garage.  The manual says that the range of
    operating temperatures is 65-110 degrees (farenheit), and that using it
    in lower temps "can shorten the life of the unit".  I know other people
    who use theirs in similar unheated conditions with no problems.  Is
    anyone aware if there is an actual issue with this, or is the warning
    in the manual more of a disclaimer?  I can move the thing inside if I
    really have to, but if it will function as well in the shed, it's more
    manageable to have it out there.
    
    
    							Fred

    
    Fred,
    
    Yes, operating any kind of domestic refrigerator or freezer in
    ambient temperatures less than design shortens it's life span,
    extends it's running time and costs you more to operate.
    
    Colder ambients cause more liquid refrigerant to remain in the 
    condenser. (The black radiator behind the unit, usually.)
    This in turn causes the evaporator (inside coils) to run short
    of gas.  Running "short of gas" lowers the temperature of what little
    refrigerant is inside these tubes.  Then to make matters worse,
    oil migrates along with the refrigerant. The oil charge is designed
    for a certain amount to always be returning to the compressor so
    it operates balanced.  Back to the evaporator coils being too
    cold, this causes the oil film to congeal. Congealed oil forms a
    little insulation, and well - before this gets too long with
    miniscule details, you can run your compressor very low on oil
    and it'll bind up.    
    
    Also, by allowing too much frost/ice to build up on the evaporator
    coils forms an insulation on the outside of the tubes. This prevents
    heat from whatever you're freezing to boil off the refrigerant to
    a gasseous state as it was designed. This will allow liquid refri-
    erant to reach the compressor.  Refrigerants are solvents. 1, they
    will keep oil from lubricating where friction is present and 2,
    a liquid cannot be compressed. Enough liquid in there and if the
    compressor don't seize up it will crack the reed type valves.
    
    I hope this answers your question.
    
    Fred
                                                                 

    Fred, thanks for the explanation.  You've convinced me to move the thing
    indoors.  I've got to wait for the snow to melt though, my downstairs
    entrance is blocked in!  That's the other reason I put it in the shed,
    but I wasn't in a rush to confess laziness.
    
    
    
    							Fred

    
    Heck!  just unplug it, leave the door open a little
    and the stuff will freeze or stay frozen!!!!  :)

    Don't know for sure but the freezer I am using. My parents bought
    in 1950. It is a Philco chest type and it has always been in the 
    unheated barn (garage), until 5 years ago I framed a laundry room
    and there she sits still running.
    
    But maybe they don't make them like they used to.
    
    
    
    Don

Well, that's true on two counts ...

The compressor on your old freezer is far less efficient than a modern
compressor ... look at the size of it for starters ... compared to a modern
freezer compressor, it is a monster.  The result of higher efficiency
is that the compressor works to higher tolerances, which, if used in non-
optimal conditions makes them more prone to failure.

Second, the insulation on your old freezer is poor compared to a modern
freezer.

The two things together mean that your old freezer is using MUCH more
electricity than a modern freezer ... so you're just paying a different
way!

Stuart

    Thanks for the additional input.  I was wondering how people had
    their freezers working for years in low temperature conditions.  
    
    Then again, sometimes it's better not to know!
    
    
    
    							Fred

    Makes sence to me.
    
    Now if I could only get my wifes &*^&* side by side to shut off
    once in a while !!!!!!!
    
    
    
    
    Don
    

    RE: .18
    
    I'll lay ya dollars to donuts the compressor in that old Philco is a 
    tecumseh CAT4C PANCAKE UNIT.
    
    I Threw one in a refrig for someone maybe 27 years ago, mounted it
    on a 45 degree angle and it ran perfect for maybe 20 years.
    Then they improved on the model!!   :^)
    
    Something like when the pilgrims came to America.  There were no
    major wars. No national debt. Each area had it's own leader (indian),
    they interfered with no foriegn countrys, men did all the hunting,
    fishing and trapping and women did all the work plus there no taxes.
    Whiteman said "we're gunna improve on this!!"    :^)
    
    Fred                                                                                                 
    

    Does anyone know of an easy way to move heavy kitchen appliances, like the
    stove, and the refrigerator? And for the stove, doesn't something have
    to be disconnected or shutoff (like the GAS) 1st to move it?
    
    Connie (where is Heloise when you need her)

Most refrigerators have their own wheels - check yours.  If not, you can
buy wheeled platforms that can fit underneath the refrigerator so you can
roll it in and out.  The stove you just have to tug on - yes, there is
definitely a gas line to be disconnected (shut it off first!)  If you're
not "handy" with gas lines, I recommend calling a licensed plumber to do it
for you.  It can be very dangerous if you make a mistake.

				Steve

Oh, you can rent an "appliance dolly" from a rental store or U-Haul.

				Steve

    Go for the Appliance Dolly at your U-Haul or Rental store.
    About $10 to $15 a day and well worth it.
    
    It will have a good heavy strap that you tighten to hold the applicance
    on the dolly.  And most have "stair climber" roller belts on the back
    to make it possible to go up and down bulkhead or exterior steps.
    
    Moved many a refrigerator, washers, and dryers with these things.
    
    	Dave.

When moving refrigerators and freezers any more than a few inches, I usually
remove the doors; usually a simple task.  Amazing how much lighter a fridge
gets without the doors. Same for stoves, but for a different reason. The
natural tendency when pulling out a stove is to grab the door handle.  Many
(most?) have doors that slide up and out; just the action you put on them when
tugging them out from the space in a counter.  It's hard to retain your sense 
of humor when you are on your back on the kitchen floor with the stove 
door firmly in your grasp resting on your lap.

Also, if you care about the floor, pick up some inexpensive sheet(s) of 1/4"
masonite to roll/slide the appliances on. 

Dave

    Nothing (IMHO) is more prone to damaging a linoleum floor than sliding a
    stove out from between two cabinets. Be careful!

    Kevin 

-.1

Agreed.  Best way I found was to tilt stove back to wall and slide large sheet
of carboard (works best, but lacking that some upside down carpet) under it
and then slide out on cardboard.  Works great.

    O.k. my fridge isn't staying cool and my freezer's cycle of going on
    and off (supposedly to prevent frost) has been doing extremes where the
    food would almost totally thaw then re-freeze.
    
    The fridge is 7 years old but was not used for 18 months.  I have been
    using it for about a year and only really had a problem in the past few
    months.  I moved it away from the wall and vacummed under and all around
    it.  I then put a thermometer in there and the fridge temp still never
    went below 56 F.  Last night I unplugged it, cleaned all the food out
    and was planning on changing the thermostat (which I don't even know
    where to begin to look for), but, when I cleaned the freezer I had to
    take out a whole 'wall' of ice along the back wall and some ice on the
    sides of my so-called frost-free freezer.  Now I know frost-free
    doesn't mean 100% forst free but this did seem like a lot of ice.
    
    Now that you have all the details, can anyone help me:
    
    	o Find the thermostat?
    
    	o Do I need to change that if I have thawed the fridge now?
    
    	o What else can I do on my own before having to call a professional
          or worse yet, replacing it?
    
    Any and all comments would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Thanks
    Joyce 

    I wrote the following and then thought that it may not be correct.
    When my units defrost timer went bad the frig warmed up, unit
    ran all the time but blew warm air, losts of ice in back of freezer.
    So take the following as a possibility, I am no expert for sure.
    
    
    I think the chances are reasonable that the defrost timer is going on
    the blink. Mine went a few years ago. A typical sympton of this is
    the freezer ices up because the timer does not tell the unit to
    defrost. With no defrost the ice builds up and the cooling capability
    goes to hell, so you end up with a nice pile of ice in the freezer but
    everything else is warm as hell.
    
    Mine has the compressor on the bottom and the timer was down there
    also, near the front of unit. It was more or less round, black,
    about 2" in diameter. It usually has a knob or screw slot which
    allows you to manually turn it till it goes to defrost. 
    On mine you can remove plate inside back of freezer and see the
    defrost coils turn on and glow as they heat up.
    You can also manually remove the ice in back of freezer with
    a hair dryer, then restart frig and you should be ok for a few days.
    Watch for ice build up and do it again when needed. 
    
    If you remove ice in freezer and the unit returns to normal
    temperatures within a few hours then it probably means only the
    timer is bad. Total cost to replace by service person including
    parts should be no more than $100 with guarantee. 
    
    You could probably do it yourself if you desired to, part should be
    reasonable. But unless you feel comfortable testing it as bad etc.
    I would call in someone, that is what I did.
    
    My unit is a 17 year old 22 cubic ft side by side. Unit still runs
    fine today. THe $100 timer repair was well worth it.
    
    Good luck,
    
    					Harold
    
    

    Thanks Harold....since the fridge is empty now and there is no more ice
    I'll try to find the knob/screw and do a little trouble shooting
    myself.  I did get a couple of comments similar to yours in mail so 
    now I have a few more things to check.
    
    Thanks to all who have responded and i'm still open to opinions and
    suggestions.
    
    Joyce

It is probable that your fridge works on the gravity system.  The freezer get 
the cool air and a thermostate_and_door operate to let the cool air down into
the fridge.  If you remove an ice dam from the freezer, it is possible that the 
dam was blocking most of the channel for the cool air to flow downward.  When 
we notice ours not doing a good job with the freidge section, it is invariable 
because the top freezer is "stuffed" and blocking the air channel; move stuff 
around it it works fine.

Just a thought.....

Dave

    I just went through the same situation and it turned out to be
    the thermostat in the back of the freezer compartment.  I kept getting
    ice buildup and a warm frig too.  Here's what I was told to do:
    1. locate the defrost timer (mine was at the floor in the front of
    the unit.
    2. turn the knob on the defrost timer until you hear a loud "click"
    sound.
    3. watch the heater coils in the back of the freezer and see if they
    come on and glow red.  (these melt ice and keep your freeze defrosted.)
    
    In my case, the heater coils did not glow red.
    
    4. In my freezer area, I found the thermostat and was told to cut the
    wires going through the thermostat and then twist them together to 
    bypass the thermostat. (do this with the unit unplugged first!!!)
    
    5. my heater coils then glowed red.  Bought a new thermostat and wired
    it in.  All fixed.
    
    Good luck.
    

    BTW, what *is* the optimum running temp for a fridge?
    
    I turned mine back on the other day and its hovering in the low 50s.
    
    Thanks to all who have responded here and in mail.
    
    Joyce

    50+ is too warm. My 'fridge thermometer has an "ok" range marked as
    32-44 degrees. I'd err on the low side as long as you don't start
    freezing things. Freezer compartment should be around 0.

I have a 14 year old fridge which has served well,
is mechanically sound, but runs a lot of the time.
It does maitain the desired temperature in the freezer and
fridge compartments.

I've cleaned out the coils and fan numerous times with
no change.

Is it time for a new one?

Dan

    It's clearly up to you. It works now -- does it belong in a land
    fill somewhere?
    
    On the one hand, Consumer Reports has stated that a modern
    refrigerator will pay for itself in reduced electric bills in a
    relatively few years (presumably less than 14).
    
    On the other hand, my wife's parents just replaced their
    refrigerator. The old one was over 30 years old and needed weekly
    defrosting. If you're willing to fix the small things, you might
    have your current unit for another 16 years. 

    Optimuim temperature...my grandfather, who ran a dairy farm, kept
    his milk cooler at 40 degrees.  Of course, that was quite a few
    years ago now; maybe current thinking prefers a differnt temperature.
    

    Re .80 - my parents recently replaced their 15 or so year old
    refrigerator with a new model, and have noticed a 10 dollar a month
    decrease in their electric bill.  So newer models (at least sometimes)
    really can pay for themselves fairly quickly in terms of energy
    savings.

Re: .79

You might want to see if it needs new door seals.  They're relatively cheap
and can make a big difference in energy consumption.

I need to store my refrigerator while our house is being built. I don't know how 
long for sure, I am guessing 6 months. A couple of people have told me that 
storing it unplugged is bad for the refrigerator, but they couldn't tell me why. 

Can anyone tell me why this is not recommended? 

Is there anything I can do to minimize the effects?

Thanks in advance,

d.t.

    
    I don't think there's any problem storing a refrigerator unplugged.
    I've seen this dome several times in summer homes with no problem.
    
    Any time you leave a refrigerator off for any length of time, you
    should prop open the doors to let air circulate; otherwise, the inside
    will get moldy and smelly.
    

>    Any time you leave a refrigerator off for any length of time, you
>    should prop open the doors to let air circulate; otherwise, the inside
>    will get moldy and smelly.

Perhaps a better option is to take the door(s) off entirely for safety 
reasons.  If a stored refrigerator is accessible to kids at all, they can get 
trapped in it and suffocate.

Clay

Getting trapped in refrigerator was more of a problem with the old door latches.
For at least 20 years, they've just had magnetic gaskets.

There may be some risk with an unplugged fridge, that the compressor might
"set up" from lack of lubrication in the refrigerant flowing through it
regularly. If it's not too old a fridge, I wouldn't worry about it.

-Jack

    
    There will be absolutly no problem storing it.  BUT - wash the whole
    inside down with a warm water/mild bleach solution, after it has
    reached room temperature.  
    
    Remove the bottom grille and take the condensate pan out and wash it
    down also.
    
    This would also be a good time to clean and treat the door gasket(s).
    In a small pan of water as hot as your hands can stand, place a
    teaspoon of IVORY dish soap and stirr it.  Soak a small sponge and
    rub this into the gasket. Let it sit for an hour or two then rinse it
    off with cool clear water.  Something about ivory keeps them soft and
    pliable.  I don't recommend any other.
    
    When moving refrigerators, NEVER EVER lay them on thier side.
    
    Fred

Ivory liquid -- for young-looking gaskets.

BTW, a veterinarian told me that they use Dawn dishwashing detergent for
cleaning waterfowl that get caught in oil spills.  Haven't seen that one
in the ads either.

    I am glad Fred mentioned the "NEVER LAY them on their side"
    issue.  I have heard this but never knew why.  
    
    I recently purchased a 2nd fridge and had to lay it on its side twice
    for around one minute each time during transportation.
    
    It works fine.  What will happen if laid on its side?
    
    Thanks, Mark

    RE: LONG TERM STORAGE
    
    I received a refrigerator that had been unplugged for over a year,
    I opened it up (pheww) cleaned it up and made it into my beer fridge. 
    It's been running fine ever since for 3+ years now.
    
    RE: FRIDGE ON IT'S SIDE
    
    What I have heard is the refrigerant and especially oil can migrate to 
    places where they they shouldn't be.  i.e. liquid refrigerant or oil at 
    the inlet side of the compressor.  Bad things happen when you try to
    compress a liquid!  But I have also heard that restoring the unit to
    it's proper orientation and waiting a while will allow everything to
    settle back to where it belongs and will then run without problems. 
    How long to wait?  got me.  I had a freezer on it's side for a an
    afternoon while I cleaned it.  I waited a couple of days and fired it
    up.  It's been running fine for 8 years after that.  

    
    Laying any piece of refrigeration equipment that has a hermetic
    compressor on its side is not recommended because:
    
    1,  Enough oil can migrate back thru' the suction line and become
        trapped in the cooling coil. If it doesn't return to the compresor
        in the first few minutes of operation, it will congeal and restrict
        the flow of refrigerant. This hampers the operation.  The only
        way to get it back it to place a lot of pans of boiling hot water
        where the evaporator (cooling coils) are located to thin it out
        and when it is restarted, the flow of refrigerant will carry it
        back to the compressor.
    
    2,  The compressor section inside that black sphere is mounted on
        springs. A 1/2 decent jolt from a pot hole, or what-have-you,
        can damage the mounts. If it breaks loose inside you will have
        one'ell'uvva noisy unit.
    
    3,  Also, should the compressor section come free of its internal
        mounts, there is/are tubes connected to this compressor which
        are brazed to the "black ball". Some have a small copper flex
        connector which can withstand a lot of movement. Others have a
        solid piece of copper tube which has a couple of 180 degrees
        bends in it to absorb vibration. These are more prone to damage.
        Crack either one and the compressor is useless.
    
    
    Fred

    -1
    
    Does that go for dehumidifiers (or air conditioners) too?  Having read
    this note before I bought one this week, I made sure to keep it upright
    during transit. However, there were no instructions on the packaginh
    about keeping it upright.
    
    Colin
    

I just bought a dehumidifier and had to transport it home on its side in my car.
The guy who brought it out said to wait 12-24 hours after setting it back
upright before starting it, so that all that stuff would drain back to its
proper place.

-Chris

    Re .82
    
    Our refrigerator cost $1500 last year.  At $10/month savings, it will
    take 150 months for it to pay for itself.  I don't know that 12.5 years
    is paying for itself quickly.
    
    							John

Well, "paying for itself" really implies an apples-to-apples comparison (same 
features in both units). My guess is that if you replaced an old refrigerator 
with a $1500 one, you might have been able to do a more no-new-features 
replacement for half that, which would mean 6-7 years payback.

Of course, I know nothing about your old refrigerator, but older refrigerators 
in need of replacement aren't generally feature matches for new high-end units.

Obviously bells and whistles increase the payback time.  A $1500 refrigerator
isn't going to more efficient than an equivalent capacity $600 refrigerator.

It's like replacing your 1975 Caddy to get better gas mileage.  A Saab is
going to have a longer payback period than an Escort.

    
    Believe I mentioned "anything with a hermetic system." If it's not 
    a hermetic one then it's doubtful you'll be handling it in a manner
    to tip it.  (meaning - BIG!)  
    
    Hey, it's under warrantee. If it makes too much noise or dies,
    they have to give you a new one.         
    
    Fred

�    2,  The compressor section inside that black sphere is mounted on
�        springs. A 1/2 decent jolt from a pot hole, or what-have-you,
�        can damage the mounts. If it breaks loose inside you will have
�        one'ell'uvva noisy unit.

Bet that's what happened to ours.  It was in storage upright for 3 years, then
moved and plugged back in.  Works fine, but makes a heck of a racket when it
used to be quiet.

Is this sort of thing reparable?

j.

    
    Unplug the refrigerator.
    
    Remove the cardboard in the rear of the box and take a look
    at the compressor mounts.  Thier rubber, and sometimes with age
    and moving, get cut thru and the compressor legs vibrate against
    the steel posts.  Those can be picked up at any refrig. supply
    house.  Take a sample, there are a multitude of different ones.
    
    Also you may check to see that the retaining clip is still above
    the rubber mount. If someone removed them, the compressor could've
    "jumped" a mount during moving.  
    
    Now that you can see what's there. you may want to get your vac
    and remove the dust.  :^)    Then plug it in and see where the 
    racket is comming from.  If it's integral, live with it.  The cost
    of replacement just for noise isn't worth it.  If it's a GE, or
    another model with a condenser fan, check to see if something is
    hitting it.  If it does has the little blck fan motor, look for 
    little rubber plugs on top of it's housing. If it has them, pull 
    them out and put 3 or 4 drops of light machine oil in each one.
    Then replace the plugs.  Thier usually rust colored.
    
    Fred

    I have a couple questions regarding copper piping for which I wasn't able
    find any previous notes in this particular area.
    
    I'd like to know two things:
    
    	- What is the difference between "Type L" and "Type M" copper pipe?
    
    	- What type is recommended for FHW supplies to baseboard heating
    	   units? (residental)
    
    
    Any comments are appreciated.
    
    Scott

    
    K/L/M = Wall thickness of copper pipe/tubing (Thick/Medium/Thin).  
    
    K/L = suitable for bending.
    
    L = common for domestic FHW.
        
    (It's in here somewhere relating to bending copper pipe).
    
    C
    
    

    

    There are three types of copper pipe available, Type K, L, and M. (In
    order of decreasing wall thickness.)

    Type K is the thickest wall and is generally used for underground water
    connections where the pipe is exposed to significant corrosion
    conditions.  Type L is generally used for supply line plumbing.  Type M
    is cheaper and used for FHW heating.  Some builders will plumb a house
    with type M all the way around, but I would advise against it,
    especially in areas with hard or acidic water.  Since FHW systems are,
    in essence, closed systems, (Additional water enters only when bleeding
    the system, or if you have a leak....), the water in the system becomes
    less reactive over time so the thinner walled type M is fine. 

    Type L also come in both hard and soft temper.  Soft temper pipe can be
    bent and usually come in coils.  Hard temper pipe come in strait
    lengths. Type M is only available in hard temper and require the use of
    solder fittings for all bends. 

    I think another reason for the different thicknesses is water pressure.
    FHW systems typically run at 20 - 25 PSI.  But water supply is more
    like 60 PSI in the house (higher at the street).  So water supply needs
    thicker pipe.

    Thank you all for the information.
    
    It's much appreciated!
    
    For some reason I was thinking the coding would be reversed with
    thickness increasing with the alpha character.
    
    This really helps me make my decision.
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Scott
                                   

    Update on .72
    
    Like .54 it was a faulty compressor but here is a rundown of what
    happened.
    
     - I tried some htings from this file (thanks for the tips here and in
    mail)
     - broke down and started calling used appliance dealers (yikes! over
    $300.00 for a used fridge - I wanted almond color)
     - Amatos in Worcester were the best to deal with over the phone and
    even gave me enough info to decide to have a technition look at it.
     - Amatos tech tells me the fan has seized up (due to the frost
    pattern) so he orderd me a new fan and with the 50% discount on service
    calls coupon I got from the yellow pages I paid $12.00 for the service
    call.
     - the tech comes back 2 days later (at my request) and opens the
    fridge to find a totally different frost pattern - this pattern tells
    him the compressor is shot.
     - I'm informed GE had a bad batch of compressors so the tech tells me
    to call GE since he would have to charge me about $400.00 to get mine
    fixed.
     - GE quotes me $260.00 for their discounted labor, I told the rep that
    wasn't acceptable
     - called another GE office and told them that due to the faulty
    compressor the fan rusted and seized so I wanted that replaced too.
     - final tally, compressor and fan free of charge, discounted labor on
    compressor all for $210.00.
    
    That is acceptable.
    
    Thanks again for all your help!  I'll miss notes when I become a
    Quantumite,
    Jt

    IMHO...Type L is easier to solder than M. especially when you don't
    do it that often. 
    
    Saul

    The refridgerator that is in the condo I bought recently doesn't have
    any freezer shelves and it's becoming quite a pain to deal with
    (getting to stuff on the bottom of the pile, for example).  I called GE
    and for the "low" price of $58/wire shelf and $6/shelf for supports, I
    could fix my problem.  Since I have better things to do with my money,
    I am thinking about making some shelves of my own out of the vinyl
    coated wire shleving sold at HQ, Home Depot, etc.  What I am unsure
    about is how to secure the shelves to the freezer sides.  If nothing
    else becomes apparent, I'll just order GE's supports, but it'd be real
    nice to save the $6/shelf plus shipping and handling too!.  Any ideas?

   re: .0
   
   That vinyl coated stuff you are referring to is for closets and stuff
   like that, right?  You might want to check into the kitchen section of
   those shops too... I've seen free-standing vinyl coated wire shelves
   that are sold as add-ons to kitchen storage - these don't require
   support from any wall supports, as they are shaped sort of like this:
           __________
         /|         /|
        +-+--------+ |
        |          |
        |          |
   
   That may serve your purpose better than the closet add-ons.
   
   - Tom
   

    
     You might also try a used appliance dealer, and see if they have
    the shelves you need. Salvage yards that take old fridges have tons
    of them too.
    

     Not sure what type of adhesive should be used, but you could
    possibly glue the hangers used with this type of shelving to 
    the plastic sides of the freezer compartment.
    

    
    i dont know where your located but most towns now have
    places to drop off stoves, freezers, washer ect....  You
    might want to venture into one of thoes piles and look
    around......  Heck, $60 could fill that rack with a lot
    of beer!!!!:)
    
    JD

Before you put that beer in the freezer, open the bottles and put a
popsicle stick in each one.  When it's frozen, a quick whack against the
side of the freezer should break the bottle, resulting in a beersicle.

    We have a freezer-leaking problem too. After I read this note, we went
    home and took the fridge apart. The tube from the freezer down was 
    dry as a bone -- even a little dust bunny. But the tube that came down
    from the freezer, and the little cup it drained into, were both frozen.
    The cup was removable, so a little warm water cleaned it up. We
    had to use the blow dryer on the tube. Things seemed to be working fine
    for a little while, but the dripping has started again, and the tube
    and cup appear to be freezing up again. Any ideas? Defroster element?
    Thanks,
    Sue
    

    
    Sue,
    
    1st off, pull the plug on the unit.
    
    Open the freezer and remove the panel covering the cooling coil.
    Either the rear or bottom.
    
    Find the drain, there could be a piece of foriegn matter partially
    clogging it.  I rather doubt that you have a defrost timer or heater
    problem. If water is comming from the freezer section, that indicates
    the defrost mode is working.
    
    Fred

    
    This may well be my last opportunity to assist anyone with
    questions or problems regarding refrigeration/air cond. 
    problems.
    
    As of monday, Oct 2nd, I will be a Quantum employee and unable
    to access the DEC notesfile any longer.
    
    It has been a pleasure offerring assistance.  
    Also getting advise and help through the many files I've been in.
    
    Good luck to everyone...
    
    Fred
    

    We've had this problem several times with our refrigerator.  In each
    case, the water collection tray with the small hole leading to the
    drain tube has been plugged by a field pea.  Clearing the obstruction
    cures the ailment.
    
    charlie

    My 10 year old Frigidaire stopped freezing and cooling.  The temp in
    the freezer is around 45 degrees.  The compressor was replaced in '92.
    
    *  the freezer is not cold enough, nor is the box.
    *  the compressor appears to be running non stop
    *  the fan works
    *  if I turn the temp control to off, the compressor stops
    *  if I turn the defrost timer manuall, the compressor stops
    *  there is water in the runoff tray
    *  I took the back freezer panel off, located the coils, when the 
       compressor runs for a while, frost begins to form on the coils.
       I assume these are the cooling coils and not the heater coil
    *  I have located the defrost timer, defrost motor, and the thermostat
       but am a little unsure on how to test and what to look for.  
    
    What do I look for now ?    My thinking leads me to think I have either
    a faulty thermostat or defrost timer.  How do I narrow this down ??  
    If I have a faulty thermostat would it not get to the desired temp and
    thus the compressor runs constantly ??  If this were the case, I would
    thing the freezer would get too cold, ie. the compressor would not know
    when to shut off.  I am leaning towards the defroster, perhaps it is
    stuck in the on position, ie. heating things up while the compressor
    is trying to cool.  But I don't feel any "warmness" in the freezer..
    
    Also, is there another thermostat somewhere, the defrost thermostat ??
    If so, where would I locate this  ??
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

    see: .76 for what I did.
    

    I have read your notes and all the others.  Guess I am having trouble
    finding the heater coil and the defroster thermostat, as the bottom
    shelf in the fridge does not look like it comes out easily.  I had
    the back panel off, the cooling coils are back there but I don't find
    the defroster thermostat.  If my heater was on constantly wouldn't the
    floor of the freezer be warm ??  Mine isn't..  The cooling coils frost
    up, kinda tells me the compressor and such is working, just not getting
    cold enough...   Am I mistaking the cooling coils for the heater coil ?
    
    Steve

    My thermostat and heating and cooling coils were located at the
    back of the freezer and were only accessable from inside the
    freeze compartment.  I took everything out of the freezer and
    then remove 2 screws and popped the inside back off.  Check there.

Hi,
  I have a problem with my refrigerator.  The "retaining" bars on the inside 
of the door have a tab into slot construction for removal.  Well, one of the 
slots has broken.  See lame graphics for illustration.  The tab is plastic 
and has surface area both above and below the slot.  Can I use a glue to
permanently affix the bar to the door?

    broken
     |	------	
     V  |    |  
       *|    |	
     * *|    |  
       *|    |  
        |    |  
	------  

Thanks in advance,
Brian

Are you saying the slot in the inner door surface broke?  I had the tab break.
Until I get a replacement part, I'm using duct tape.

    Yes, the slot broke.  I wouldn't have minded buying a new tab.  A new
    door, I mind.  (I haven't consulted a pro on this so, I can't say for
    sure I'd need a new door).
    
    Brian
    

I found a product in the home improvement store recently called "Plastic
Welder".  In addition to being an epoxy, it conains Methacrylate Ester and
Methacrylic Acid, which help "melt" the plastic together (like plastic model
cement does).  You might want to try some of this; I was quite impressed
with the results.

    I've read through all these notes, but didn't find exactly the same
    problem.
    
    Our Frigidaire frost free fridge started dripping water about a week
    ago. The unit is about 20 years old. The water is dripping inside the
    fridge. Opening the fridge door (not the freezer) and looking at the
    top (bottom of the freezer compartment) there are 3 slots running
    across the front (and I believe back). One on the left, one in the
    center and one on the right. Looking up into the slots, there is about
    a half to 3/4 of an inch of pink foam insulation. Can't tell what's
    above the foam. The water is dripping out of these front slots.
    
    Both the freezer and fridge compartment appear to be staying normally
    cold. Compressor appears to be going on and off normally. In fact, we
    wouldn't have noticed anything if it wasn't for the water.
    
    Any ideas what might be happening here.
    
    
    Steve

    I have an older (maybe 20 years or so) Frigidaire frost free fridge
    that started leaking water from the bottom of the freezer compartment
    into the fridge.
    
    I checked the drain tube where it empties into the bottom of the fridge
    and it was dry and looks like it's been dry for some time. I
    disconnected the drain tube from the top of the fridge (bottom of the
    freezer compartment) and it was frozen.
    
    Took the bottom out of the freezer compartment and there is a metal
    tray under all of the freezer cooling elements. It was full of ice.
    
    So, according to other notes I've read, the probable problem is either
    a bad defrost heating element or bad defrost cycle timer. Obviously
    I'm going for the timer first.
    
    My question is, where is this timer normally located. I couldn't find
    anything in the freezer compartment while it was appart, and I can't
    see anything that looks like a timer under the fridge looking in from
    the front. The only thing I havn't done yet is pull the fridge all the
    way out and check the back, and drop the top of the fridge compartment
    where the defrost heating element should be.
    
    Any help????????????
    
    Thanks 
    
    Steve

	I had a similar water dripping problem.
	Mine was a clogged tube that leads to the drip tray underneith
	the refer. The self defrost heats up inside the walls then the 
	water is supposed to drain out via this tube.
	/don

The bulb blew in our refrigerator and I can't
budge the thing to replace it. Is there a standard
procedure for getting a light bulb out of a
socket?

I have no idea how long the bulb has been in, the
refrigerator came with the house.

Thanks,
Jerry

Unplug the refrigerator.  Squirt some WD-40 around the base of the bulb, wait
30 seconds, then try again.  If the bulb breaks, take pliers and unscrew
the base.  Repeat - UNPLUG THE REFRIGERATOR before doing this.  (Or turn off
the circuit breaker for the circuit the fridge is on.)

When you put the new bulb in, coat the base lightly with WD-40.

				Steve

    Supposedly one of the Time-Life commercial (for their Household Tips
    book)  suggests using a raw potato sliced to provide a flat-end, and
    jammed onto the socket/broken bulb. Twist the potato - using it as a
    handle.
    
    I have never tried this, and I suppose one should have the power off
    the socket - unless one wants french fries :-)
    
    /jim

RE: -.1
>    Supposedly one of the Time-Life commercial (for their Household Tips
>    book)  suggests using a raw potato sliced to provide a flat-end, and
>    jammed onto the socket/broken bulb. Twist the potato - using it as a
>    handle.
>    
>    I have never tried this, and I suppose one should have the power off
>    the socket - unless one wants french fries :-)
>    /jim
    
    That's exactly what Tim did last night on `Home Improvement'. Right
    before Al unplugged the socket, Tim jambed the potato on the broken
    bulb. He was shaking down to his toes. It was pretty funny. I guess you
    had to be there.
    
    Peter

    What's the difference between the Code H and Code M (I think these are
    the codes) 1/2" copper pipes?  The guy at HD says one is used for hot
    water and one is for cold.  Why?  The hot water pipes are a little more
    expensive too.  Is there some plumbing code that says we got to use the
    two types of pipes?  
    
    Thanx .... d.

	Type H?  I thought HD only carried type's L & M (the thicker one
	being for domestic water [ie. high pressure], and the thinner
	one for waste or other low pressure [ie. FHW systems])?

	Do you live in NH or MA?  Maybe MA codes require this type H?

    I'm in MA - and I noticed the differing pipe codes at the Tewksbury HD.
    
    To look and touch the pipes I could not notice a difference - but I'm
    sure there is something that makes them distinctive besides the price.
    
    d.

    
    I haven't read of anything listed as type H, but M is thin walled,
    L is medium and K is thick walled.  Use of M for internal pumbing is
    subject to local codes, but it's adequate for internal plumbing
    whatever the water temperature.  Type K is used where there is a risk
    of damage to exposed pipes or pipes buried below ground.

> The guy at HD says one is used for hot water and one is for cold.  

    What he might have said or meant� was that Type-M (thin wall) is
    used for Forced Hot Water heating systems. FHW systems generally
    run at 15 - 20 PSI.

    Type-L would be used for your regular domestic water supply, both
    Hot and Cold. Water pressure here would be more like 50 - 100 PSI.

    �I doubt though that he knew what he was talking about.

    Use L for hot and cold water supply.  Use M for heating systems, if
    you want to save a few bucks.  It's perfectly adequate for that use.
    
    I've never heard of type H, either.

> Use M for heating systems, if you want to save a few bucks.

	It's more than a few bucks (even for 3/4", never mind 1" and above) :-)

    Emergency question...
    
    I'm at home right now trying to figure out what went wrong w/ the
    fridge.  Just as I was going to bed last night, I heard a funny
    sound(the fan hitting something - presumably some ice buildup).  So,
    hoping that the defrost would get it over night, I simply turned the
    fridge down a notch so the fan wouldn't be running and hoped for the
    best.
    
    No such luck.  Now, I have the fridge apart.  Got to the fan and there
    was some ice(I believe because it was hitting somethign but going
    around and when I took a blowdryer to it,...it cleared it up).  Anyway,
    after I did that, I turned on the fridge and NOTHING(except for the
    defrost element getting pretty red!).
    
    The compresser was very hot too.
    
    Any advice is MUCH appreciated!
    
    thanks
    
    -John

    maybe it's in the defrost cycle. i think these work on actual
    timers/clocks... maybe if you keep it pluged in for a while
    (unless you think there's a danger) and try to get the defrost
    thru its cycle. if it heats up, just let it cool down, and try
    again. maybe it's designed this way, and your never notice
    untill you have it apart,  and your just a little 
    woried that you caused a problem with the dryer......
    
    good luck..!!
    
    jim

    You were, I hope, exactly right.  That's what I tried and the following
    happened:
    
    o first no sound. nothing obviously running but since the light was on
      in the fridge, I knew it was getting power
    
    o a few minutes later, the motor fan kicked on but no cooling
    
    o about 10 minutes later, the fan inside the fridge kicked on and
      whala,.. cold
    
    
    I guess it was just a timer thing(along w/ the ice around the internal
    fan.)
    
    thanks for your advice Jim
    
    -John

I am looking for a new refrigerator and kind of nail down to two models/brands.
Both are side-by-side type, one made by KitchenAid (which is made by Whirlpool)
and the other one by Amana.

My requirements are "quiet" and long-lasting.  It is hard to judge the noise
level in the store but both seems to be quite quiet.  KitchenAid seems to be
sturdier, but I don't know if this translate into "long-lasting".  Both are
CFC-free and cost about the same.  What experience do you have with these two
brands of refrigerator ?


Thanks.

/Kwong

Kitchenaid used to be made by Hobart, the people who make the *real*
restaurant stuff, well-known for its quality. I am not sure what was
lost in the move, but I have a Kitchenaid dishwasher that'll
apparently never die.

Pete

    49  FRIDAY::SCHNEEK       6-DEC-1984     9  Going to buy a Refrigerator
   280  FUTURE::UPPER        23-JUN-1986     6  Sears refrig.
   595  INABOX::BENHAM       12-FEB-1987    74  REFRIGERATORS
  1941  PARITY::MALISZEWSKI  11-MAR-1991     1  SMALL SIDE BY SIDE REFRIG
  2257  ASABET::MINISANDRAM  26-OCT-1992     1  Frigidaire dealers, Please
  2375  HWY61::BAECHTOLD     23-AUG-1993     6  Amana Refrigerator Opinions

KitchenAid didn't have a line of refrigerators in the past.  The KA 
refrigerators are minor modifications of Whirlpool models.  Whirlpool gets
high ratings for reliability by Consumer Reports, and my own experience 
with Whirlpool appliances (fridge and washer/dryer) has been good.

			Steve

    I've always been pleased with Whirlpool products.  The frig we bought
    last Feb was a Sears - but...  returned the Sears brand because it was 
    tooo loud (and it got scratched on delivery) and replaced it with the
    Whirlpool (and the sales person gave me the lower price due to the
    inconvience).
    
    Talking to the sales person, refrigerators today are louder than in the
    past.  So, the manufacturers have started a special line of "quiet"
    models.  You might want to check that out.
    
    Chris

    We have our second Amana (this one has the freezer on the bottom and is
    highly energy efficient) and are very pleased with it. Our first Amana
    provided 10 years of trouble free operation, and is still going strong
    (we sold our place and the fridge stayed.)

    We have an Amana 5 years old now and it has been quiet and problem
    free.  We are pleased with it.
    
    Brian

    Re: .4
    
    Sears refrigerators are made by Whirlpool.
    
    			Steve

    Well, seems like the problem w/ my Frigidaire is back.  After working
    fine for a few weeks, last night the fridge died again.
    
    Last time, I noticed the circulating fan was bound up by ice.  Used a
    blow dryer to melt it then restarted the fridge.
    
    However, this AM I took apart the freezer panels to check out the fan
    and there was no binding(by ice).  Turned on the fridge and the fan crept
    slowly around(1 rev/minute).  Could the ice buildup have damaged the
    fan drive?   Has anyone had experience replacing this on a frigidaire?
    
    Please advise.
    
    Thank you
    
    John

    
    	If the fan has no binding and is only turning 1 rpm , its bad, and
    proably did go bad when was stopped by ice build up.  
    
    	Question?  Has the ice build up returned?   I have had similar 
    problem on 2 refrigerators and both were related to the drain line
    being clogged with sludge.                            
        The drain line has a low volume of water that runs down it and over
    years of use sludge build up restricted the draining process causing it
    to back up and freeze inside freezer.
    
    	Just a defrosting of freezer cures problem for about 1 or 2 weeks.
    
    	Correct cure is to clean the drain line completely of all sludge.
    
    	For me this involved removeing inner walls of the freezer to access
    the drain port
    	  

    -.1 , thanks for the reply.  Not real sure if the ice build-up has
    returned.  I figured that if I couldn't move the fan by hand... the ice
    had returned.  But it moved freely by hand.  Also, the first time it
    happened, I turned on the fridge and happened to see the defrost coil
    activate,... so that's working.  
    
    
>    	Correct cure is to clean the drain line completely of all sludge.
>    
>    	For me this involved removeing inner walls of the freezer to access
>    the drain port
    
    
    That was my next question since it didn't look very obvious.  Once the
    walls are off, is it obvious how to do this?  Did you also have a
    Frigidaire?
                                   
    Thanks again.
    
    -John

================================================================================
REPLY    to Note 4456.35
        
>    That was my next question since it didn't look very obvious.  Once the
>    walls are off, is it obvious how to do this?  Did you also have a
>    Frigidaire?
                                   

	1. All refrigerators w/automatic defrost should have a drain line 
that will drain into a pan near the compressor at base of fridge and the 
water then evaporates.   The drain should be at bottom of freezer compartment
and any  water created during defrost will gravity feed to the drain.  Pour
    a cup of warm water into compartment to see direction it flows to find
    drain.
	2. Was it a Frigidaire?     ==   One was, and one was a Westinghouse
if memory serves me.  
    
	
	

    Thanks again -.1
    
    Looked at it again last night and there is no easy way to get at the
    actually line.  So I called the Frigidaire Tech line,... they looked at
    some schematics and said,... nope, no way to get at it.  What they
    suggested, was similar to yourself in that you get some warm water and
    pour it down.  
    
    One twist to it is that he said to add bleach to the water... makes
    sense.  It'll kill any bacteria growing in the lines.  
    
    Also, started the fridge up again last night(after a days worth of
    defrost).  The fan started spinning better.
    
    This morning I had ice cubes.
    
    Next time it gets sick/or next time I have the chance,... I'll take it
    apart again and do the bleach/warm water.
    
    John

    also maybe. replace the fan, or if you can get to it, use a good
    quality oil, and lube any points you can get to...

    Thanks Jim,... I'll try that too,.. on next shutdown.

  I need some help regarding refrigerator wood-panel trim kits.

  I purchased the largest non-SubZero refrigerator that I could find available
  locally.  The unit is the new GE 30 cu ft model.  When I bought it, I was
  told by the salesperson that GE sells a trim kit for the unit to allow you to
  slide in wood panels for a built-in look.  Now later as installation is
  imminent, I call GE and they say there is no such kit for this unit.  Somehow
  I need to install my cabinet door panels onto the refrigerator doors. 

  Someone once mentioned something about generic trim kits that will fit almost
  any refrigerator.  Any idea about where to get these if they exist, do they
  exist?

  As an option of last resort, I suppose I could easily screw the 1/4" wood
  panel into the metal door cover itself.  The trim kits simply screw into the
  tops and sides of the doors, whereas I'd be putting screws into the front of
  the door itself instead.  Are there any other downsides to this that I can't
  picture besides ruining the front appearance of the doors if the panels are
  removed?

  The only last kicker is that the door end on the outside edge is rounded
  rather than a square corner.  I might have to glue two pieces of 1/4" panel
  together at a 90 degree angle with a piece of rounded stock holding them
  together to make that corner hold tight as the door opens and closes.

  Does anyone have any experience with refrigerator trim kits and could tell me
  if they think it is possible to either modify an existing kit, or buy generic
  hardware that would perform the same job, or just screw the panel into the
  factory door itself?

  Any leads or opinions would be appreciated...

  -Erik

    Call CREST Electronics on Main Street in Hudson, MA or go visit
    them on your lunch hour.  They have been in business for a good
    while and could offer helpful advice.

    justme....jacqui

    Can anyone tell me what I can use to clean and preserve the door
    gaskets.  I just aquired an old freezer that I am using to store
    household chemicals, oils, paints, etc.  The unit may be about 30+
    years old.  The gasket is in good shape structurally, but needs a
    little tlc.   Thanks, Mark

    The whole point of the SubZero units is that they allow the "built-in"
    look... 
    
    Whoever sold you the unit should have the stuff. GE should have the
    stuff. I've never seen one of those that did not have matching
    paneling on it by the time it was installed....
    
    I'd call GE again, and try for someone else...
    
    Chris
    

    Since the sales person misled you, you should be able to 
    return and exchange the fridge. It's not going to be easy
    to retrofit a trim kit. If you drill into the door you 
    are going to damage the insulation.

re: The whole point of the SubZero units is that they allow the
"built-in" look... "

I think he bought a non-subzero, per .0    

    Ooops...  
    
    Win a few, lose a few. That will teach me to try to be coherent on a
    Monday morning....
    
    Chris
    

	I've also been looking for a new large fridge...here's my
take on the situation.

	While many fridges can take a re-fit kit to hold wooden 
panels, they won't really look like cabinets 'cause you can see 
the sides - they stick out deeper than standard base and/or upper
cabinets.  In my situation, I'm placing the fridge at the inner
bottom of a 'U' of counters, and I'm recessing the fridge back into
the wall to make more room and improve the look.  I can do this 
because I'm also rebuilding the bathroom on the other side of the
wall, and can leave a shallow closet to take the fridge, stealing
the volume from the bathroom.  The doors of the fridge will be
proud of the cabinet countertop (to permit opening);  the main
part of the fridge is flush with the bottom cabinet doors.  So I'll
have the fridge doors a few inches out from the base cabinets, and
a fair bit out from the uppers, but not nearly as much as in a 
normal installation.  I'm going to leave the thing white, due to all
the exposed sides...and I'm using white cabinets anyway.

	I did look at the monster GE 30 cubic footer, and I seem to 
remember it having rounded edges to the doors (massive!), not the
usual corner, so perhaps that's why it can't take the retrofit kit.
It is a big unit, but not really taller or wider than the 25s, just
deeper.  

	I think there are other manufacturers in addition to sub-zero
who are now making 24" deep fridges to get that flush look.  Unless 
they're wider as well, though (subzero's DON'T fit into a standard 
fridge space), you'll lose a lot of volume.

    I have a Westinghouse fridge that has developed a problem of not
    working!
    
    It was working fine but all of a sudden just stopped giving cold air.
    
    I unplugged it and moved it away from the wall, took off the panel and
    plugged it back in, first cleaning out all the cobwebs and dust-bunnies
    accumulated.   There's a relay attached to the compressor
    (black-roundish cointainer) and I heard it click.  It then sounded like
    it was making it's typical humming sound.  Just as quickly, say about a
    second, it stopped and the only sound was the fan!  I tried this again
    and again with the same results.  I played with the thermostat inside
    the fridge but it had no effect on the outcome.
    
    I took the cover off of the relay assembly and cleaned it of dust and 
    tried the same thing as above and could see the solenoid kick in for a 
    second and then kick right out!
    
    Does this sound like anything that anyone else has seen and been able
    to fix?
    
    -Tony

    Sounds like it's time to replace the compressor.

    We have a 9 year old Amana side by side refrig that is now tripping the
    GFCI outlet it's plugged into whenever it goes into defrost cycle.  The
    background is:
    
    1) Left the refrig door open for about 3 hours last Thursday night.
    
    2) Closed the door, the frig was runnning and sometime in the middle 
    of the night the GFCI tripped.
    
    3) Friday, turned the defrost cycle control past defrost cycle and
    reset the switch.  Also cleaned all the dust, lint and other dirt from
    the coil and compressor area.
    
    4) Saturday, the GFCI tripped again.  I took the cover off the inside
    back of the freezer and found a block of solid ice cover the coils and
    the fins.  We got out the hair dryer and melted and dried all the ice and
    water.  Plugged it back in and this morning the GFCI tripped as soon as
    it hit the Defrost cycle.
    
    Does anyone have any suggestions?
    
    Thanks,
    Bill
    

    Refigerators and other high-current motorized appliances aren't really
    suited to GFCIs.
    
    				Steve

    Steve,
    
    Are you saying it is tripping because the refrig is on the GFCI?  I've
    had it on the same GFCI outlet for 9 years and it has never tripped
    before.  Is it safe to switch to a regular outlet when the GFCI is
    saying there is a ground fault?  
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bill

The instructions included with a GFI I installed claimed "flaky" operations 
when used with certain motorized appliances; ie, refrigerators.  I can attest 
to the accuracy of those instructions.  I have a small college_dorm 
refrigerator I use in the garage to store garbage during the summer between 
trips to the dump.  It runs OK on a GFI outlet.  However, I cannot use a 
compactor plugged into the same outlet.  About every other time the compactor 
operates, the GFI trips.  A heavy duty power drill works OK, a light duty 
moter running a grinding wheel does not.

There probably is a very good technical reason.

Dave

    your refrig has a grounded plug, right?  It doesn't need GFCI.  If an
    electrical short develops and the case becomes electrified, the
    grounding wire directs the current safely to ground, rather than
    shocking the person touching the refrig. 
    
    Mark

    Thanks for your help.  I didn't know the Refrig's are not a good mix
    with GFCI.  I just plugged it into a regular grounded outlet and it
    appears to be working fine.  How can I tell if it is shorting out and
    being sent to the ground?  Is there a way to tell for sure if the GFCI
    was flakey, or if there really is a problem?  It makes me nervous
    because the refrig was plugged into the same GFCI for nine years, I
    also tried a different GFCI circuit and it tripped too.
    
    Thanks again,
    Bill

If it's shorting to ground, it should trip the breaker.

>    was flakey, or if there really is a problem?  It makes me nervous
>    because the refrig was plugged into the same GFCI for nine years, I
>    also tried a different GFCI circuit and it tripped too.

    I could be that the defroster elements have broken and are now
    shorting out.

    These elements are typically coiled wires inside of glass tubes.
    If a tube breaks, water gets in and creates a path for the
    electricity to leak out and trip a ground fault. It may not be
    enough of a current leak to trip the circuit breaker on a non-GFIC
    branch.

    Charly

I had the same problem (GFCI tripping) on the upright freezer in my garage.
The service man said that my defrost heater was the problem, and fixed it
(I'm showing my age; I used to just fix these things myself, or at least ask
the service man what had been wrong).  No more GFCI problems for about 12
months.  Then it started tripping again.

Since every outlet in the garage goes through a GFCI breaker, my solution
was to run a new dedicated circuit to a new outlet for the freezer.  No
shocks, no popped breakers, no thawed food.  My wife doubled-checked with
the service man, and he said that GFCI and freezers don't mix.  I'm happy
with the solution.

> your refrig has a grounded plug, right?  It doesn't need GFCI.  If an
> electrical short develops and the case becomes electrified, the
> grounding wire directs the current safely to ground, rather than
> shocking the person touching the refrig. 

	the fact that an appliance/etc has a grounded plug does *not*
	mean you do not need a GFCI protected outlet.  remember electricity
	takes the path of least resistence, and the ground wire may not
	be that path ..... (especially when working in wet areas ....)

I would certainly believe that big motors don't mix with GFCI (obvious hair
dryer motors work ok), but I'm suspicious of that explanation being the answer
to the question.  The defroster is a heater, not a motor.

I'd be more inclined to believe that the defroster had a leak of some sort and
water was making a moderate-resistance path to the fridge case.

You may have had that problem for some time but only when the door was left open
did you get enough water to cause trouble.  Here's an idea:  Run the fridge for
several days on a non-GFCI outlet.  If you are lucky, the defroster will dry out
and no longer leak to ground.

While I suspect that you are reasonably safe with the ground wire (it is likely
to have a much lower resistance than even you with wet hands), I'd still not
feel great until the problem was resolved.  Something obviously changed.

Burns

    >Something obviously changed.
    
    Refrig. got older, GFCI got older, YOU GOT OLDER!
    
    Mark (me too)

    Well I changed the outlet to a regular grounded outlet and it is
    running fine.  During defrost cycle there is no shock I can feel and the
    breaker has not tripped.  I plan on using a voltage tester this weekend
    to see if I can detect any leaks.  As someone suggested a couple of
    notes ago, I think I'll also plug it into a nearby GFCI outlet in a 
    couple of weeks to see if it is still tripping.
    
    Thanks for all the help and suggestions!
                                    
    Bill

>    running fine.  During defrost cycle there is no shock I can feel and the
>    breaker has not tripped.  I plan on using a voltage tester this weekend

    Well, If it has a properly connected grounded plug (3 Prongs) then
    I suspect that the voltage is leaking back thru the ground rather
    than thru you, as it  should.

    As a test, AND ONLY AS A TEST, isolate the ground via one of those
    $.69 adapter plugs and test the ground during the normal cycle and
    during the defrost cycle. If there's leakage the defrost cycle,
    that points to a defective defrost element. 

    Charly

Easy test for a hot (even slightly) metal frame:

Get a neon light.

Touch one side to the frame in question (not the paint, obviously).  Hold the
other side.  The light does not carry enough current to hurt you, but the light
will glow slightly if there any leakage to the frame.   You need the grounded
plug adaptor trick in .505 in order for this to work because otherwise, as
someone said, the ground is draining off any leakage.

Burns