Conference 7.286::home_work

    Having done one piecemeal, next time I'd tear it down to the studs
    and start from zero.  That of course depends in part on how bad
    the original is, but give "total tear-out" serious consideration
    if you're not already.  I generally find that in the long run it's
    easier not to try to patch things up if any amount of remodeling
    must be done.

    Use the green (allegedly) water-resistant sheetrock.

    Fiberglass tub enclosures don't look as nice as tile, but they sure
    are waterproof and eliminate all loose tile problems around the
    tub.  I'd probably go with a fiberglass enclosure on the shower/tub
    walls and tile the rest.
    
    Any thoughts of putting the toilet separate from the shower?  That
    idea kind of appeals to me...if I only had the space to do it....
    
    I'm not a big fan of tile floors; cleaning the grout is very difficult.
    I'd go with a high-quality linoleum.  Personal preference, again.
    
    A vent fan, going outside, will keep the place from turning into
    a tropical rainforest of steam and keep down your mildew problems.
    Along that line, fer gawdsake don't use textured paint on the
    ceiling!!!	Or the walls either, for that matter.  If mildew ever
    starts on the stuff you are doomed.  (Guess what was in the old
    bathroom I remodeled....)
    
    Steve

    I heartily endorse the suggestions in .1. When I did my bathroom I
    almost went ahead with the "try-to-cover-up" method but at the last
    minute decided to tear everything out and start from the beginning.
    I'm really glad I did, the problems I found and fixed would be plaguing
    me to this day if I hadn't.

    I also used the same philosophy on my kitchen (which is just about
    finished) and it has worked out wonderfully!

-mike

    Although I'm a big fan of tile, when we had our upstair bathroom done,
    we went cheap and had them put in a fiberglass enclosure. It just
    dosen't look nice enough for me.  We're thinking about tearing it out
    and putting up sheets of Corian (saw it on "This old House".) Since the
    ceiling is slanted and so low (the bath is part of a full dormer) we
    can cover it, eliminate wet plaster problems, eliminate grout cleaning,
    and have it match the shower walls, all at the same time.
    
    -joet
    
    P.S.  Not sure of the cost yet.  Probably pretty expensive. 

    I would agree that you should re-do the bathroom from scratch. 
    When we bought our house, we tore out the entire bathroom down to
    the studs, and rebuilt it from there.  It took my husband a total
    of 2 weeks working full time to tear it out and put in the new one.
     We went with the fiberglass tub and surround because it was the
    easiest, but you better make sure that it will fit into your house
    before you buy it.

    
    fit into your house; as in thru the door and up the stairs (if need
    be)......
    

They do make those fiberglass tubs in 2 and 3 piece units specifically so that 
you can get it into an existing house.  I would think that there are very few 
completed homes that you could fit one of the one piece units into.

The thing that makes the fiberglass units seem really cheap is the way it 
flexes when you stand in it or when you touch the walls.  You can minimize this 
by:

1) Mix up a batch of mortar or concrete and set the tub in it.  The plumber at 
our house told us that this was a waste of time, but boy am I glad we did it.
You step into the tub and it's *solid*.  A vast improvement.

2) Buy a can of the aresol insulating foam, and put a bead between the tub and 
the backing studs.  You may not be able to do this if you are installing the 
tub in an existing house, because you have to be able to get behind the tub 
after it's in.  The foam dries hard, and the walls are supported so they don't 
flex.

Paul

    I suspect the problems in "fitting the house" are not with the
    separate wall pieces but with the tub itself. Aren't those still
    one piece?
    
    The wrong size door or stairs and the right sized tub can be LOTS
    of fun!
    
    I've heard of folks insulating the underside of these fiberglass
    tubs. Anyone know what they use? Foam or fiberglass insulation?
    
    /tb/
    

Given that a standard tub is 5' long and perhaps 18" high, you ought to be able
to fit it through any doorway and any stairs.  However, the one piece units are
5' long, 5 1/2' tall, and 30" wide.  Quite a bit more difficult.  In the two 
and three piece units, the tub is one piece, and the wall surround is either 1 
or 2 pieces.

Paul

    I have recently bought and installed a two piece fiberglas tub and
    can offer the following observations:
    
    The bottom (tub) portion is the easiest to move through doors and
    hallways - it's not very wide when it's turned on its edge.  The
    top can be a problem but since it is u-shaped, you can usually "wrap
    it" around obstructions.  I did not use mortar or any other technique
    to stiffen the tub floor - it has substantial ribs and does not
    seem to flex when I stand in it (230 lbs of ballast).  The walls
    also have stiffeners built in and the overall shape tends to enhance
    the stiffness.  The unit is an Eljer Melbourne bought at Spag's - $349 in
    color (if you can call "natural" a color).  Somerville Lumber wants
    $449.  

    In response to JoeT 102.3, We went the Corian route. And you are
    correct it is big $$$ but the stuff will last forever and is real
    easy to clean. We used it for the tub enclosure and also installed
    a double bowl sink. But I believe it is worth the money.
    
    				Steve

    How much is big $$$ (Corian prices)?
    
    -Scott
    

    	Well if my memory serves me right I think that the double bowl
    sink cost about $450-500. The sheets (3' x 7' x 1/4" I think) ran
    about $80-90 each and you can figgure on alot more for 1/2" and
    3/4" sheets..... It also must be cut with a carbide tiped blade
    And believe me at that price I couldn't afford to screw up too many
    sheets....
    
    				Steve
    

    W H O A! That is OUTRAGEOUS! I'm suprised they can sell it - real
    marble must be significantly cheaper than that. Wow.
    
    Thanks (I think I'll use Formica)
    
    -Scott
    

    
    
       I also thought it was very over priced stuff and i belive you
    can get real marble cheaper. 
       We just couldn't see how the benefits of corian justified it's
    cost!
    
    Paul 
    

    Hello...Yes , my winter project is to redo my bathroom.
    
    I have a 1930 home and plan to take everything out of the bathromm,
    all the way to the studs.  I also want to enlarge it a bit by removing
    the adjacent closet.  Everything is plaster.  Since the toilet has
    sunk about 1/2 inch, I think I'll have to replace the floor too.
    
    So, I'm open to any suggestions any of you may have...
    
    Is there a right way to remove plaster walls?
    What sort of piping would you recommend? PVC or copper?
    Any tips on what to start with?  It's my only bathroom...
    Sould I also take the ceiling out, while I'm at it?
    
    I'm not sure about codes...I live in Vermont, where or who do I
    chck with for this info?
    
    Well, wish me luck...Thanks in advance,
    
    Angela

    	Well Angela... I just finished doing a bath over and as far
    as your questions go..
    
    		Plaster removal: I found that using a flat ice chopper
    				and inserting it between the plaster
    				lats works well. Taking off all the
    				plaster first makes cleanup a little
    				eaiser. (there will be plaster dust
    				is EVERY corner of you house anyway)
    		Pipes: I used plastic for all of the drains and copper
    		      for all the supply lines.
    
    		Tips: (only bath) Work fast, Make friends with a neighbor
    		     who is willing to share his.
    
    		Ceiling removal: I done both (left in and removed) I
    				now remove them. I found it easier to
    				start from scratch.
    
    
    		Good Luck.... Hope this helps....
    
    				Steve
    

I'd second the suggestion that all the plaster removal be done at one
time. When gutting plaster walls I take the follow steps:

  . Allocate plenty of time, don't underestimate the amount of work 
    involved in cleaning up after removing plaster. The set-up and
    clean-up for one wall takes almost as long as for four walls. 

  . Using plastic and masking tape seal off any areas you don't want 
    plaster dust to enter. Old blankets and sheets won't work, the dust
    will go right through them. If possible seal yourself in the room
    until the job is done.

  . Rent a shop vacuum. I once used my household vacuum only to find that 
    the dust went right through the bag and gunked up the motor, fan, 
    etc. 

  . Wear a dust mask. 

  . Have plenty of containers to cart away the rubble in. Plastic bags
    are not ideal because nails puncture them and weight can become a 
    problem. Have a good supply of cardboard box's, trash cans and heavy 
    plastic bags at the start. 
    

    
    Buy, borrow or steal a portable fan that will fit in the bathroom
    window. Turn it on, blowing out, while you are making plaster dust,
    leave the bathroom door wide open, and open other windows or exterior
    door to allow easy cross-ventilation. You will NOT get plaster dust
    in the rest of the house.
    
    (Also works great for big sanding jobs. Not reccomended at
    mid-February.)

More plaster removal tips:

1. Wear goggles, a dust mask, heavy gloves, and heavy shoes, especially
   when working over your head.  Plaster is heavy, dirty, dusty, and 
   gritty, and lath and nails aren't real nice either. 

2. My favorite plaster-wrecking tool is a Wonder Bar, a flat prying tool. 
   Heavy pliers (for pulling nails), a long heavy screwdriver (for starter
   holes and prying in tight places), and a claw hammer (for de-nailing) 
   complete my tool complement.

3. A stepladder is fine for small-scale ceiling work, but for serious
   destruction, I use a picnic bench (don't stand near the end!).  Plan to
   re-stain your bench afterwards.

4. When putting up plastic sheeting to isolate the mess from the rest of
   the house, take a tip from the pros and DOUBLE-isolate, i.e. build two 
   independent sets of masking (a few inches apart, say).  That way,
   failure of the first layer isn't a disaster.  Check the integrity of
   your masking periodically as the work progresses - assume it will fail - 
   it probably will.

5. Remove everything from the room that you can, and protect what you 
   can't.  I'm not sure if I would decide to remove the toilet, for 
   example, or to leave it and risk having it scratched or shattered by
   falling chunks of plaster.  If I left it, I would protect it with 
   furniture pads and plywood.

6. Plaster trash is a lot easier to handle if you de-nail all the lath.  It
   certainly takes longer that way, but I save the unbroken lath boards for
   such varied uses as tomato stakes, shim stock, and kindling.  My wife
   thinks I'm crazy (even while eating the tomatoes! There's no justice.) 

7. Don't wait for the trash can to fill up with plaster before you close up 
   the plastic bag and start another.  A half-full can is heavy to carry and 
   strains the bag - any fuller is too heavy.

8. Figure out what you're going to do with a surprisingly large number of 
   plastic bags of plaster.  Our town trash collectors would take a couple 
   of bags a week, but no more.

9. Leave the furring strips up if they're in good shape.

    What are furring strips?
    
    This plaster advice is great, I can do my own dump runs so I'm not
    too concerned about what to do with the mess.
    
    How thick is plaster aways!  Able to break a toilet?

    What are furring strips?

Usually rough 1x2 pine which goes crosswise to the studs    
    
    How thick is plaster aways!  Able to break a toilet?

It depends on the technology used, but thick isn't the operative
word -- think *dense*.  The oldstyle stuff with the slats (not
blueboard) is made with about 1/4 inch of concrete.....

It's too bad that you only have one bathroom; if you had more
you could move the toilet, sink, bath out to do the walls and
floor etc...  ...Maybe you can convince your neighbors to lend
you one of theirs... :-)  :-)  :-)

R.

Furring strips are used primarily for sheetrocking and siding.  By running
them horizontally across the studs, you get a different surface to secure
your siding/sheetrock to.  I've heard at least 2 different reasons for doing
this both of which make sense to me: 

	o	it keeps the studs from twisting and thereby splitting the
		siding

	o	when used for interior work (specifically ceilings), it allows
		one to runs wires between the strips and the joists, saving
		on wiring time/cost

As far as a lathe/plaster job, I don't know why one would use them.

-mark
		

The ceilings of my 1900 house are constructed of:

    Ceiling joists, 24" centers
    Perpendicular furring strips, 12" centers
    Wood lath, 2" centers
    Horsehair plaster

(all numbers are approximate, of course)

Perhaps the furring strips are to give the lath more support than they 
would get from being nailed directly to the joists.  Does anybody else 
have this construction?  N.B.  The wiring does not take advantage of the 
furring strip space - but it's knob and tube anyway!

There are no furring strips in the walls - wood lath is nailed directly 
to the studs. 

RE: removing plaster.

    I gutted and rebuilt my bathroom last summer.  After using a flatbar
    and straight claw hammer to remove the plaster, someone told me how
    I SHOULD HAVE done it...it seems they saw an episode of This Old
    House where a garden hoe was used to remove plaster, lath and all!
    I would certainly give it a try.

    I didn't do the ceiling because I have blown-in insulation above it.
    Otherwise I would have.  I put a new sheetrock ceiling over the
    plaster and drove 3" screws into the joists where I could, 2" screws
    into the furring everywhere else.

RE: disposal of plaster

    I was on the second floor but you could do the same on the first
    floor.  I borrowed a utility trailer and parked it under the bathroom
    window.  I then made a chute and hung it from the window sill.
    You can guess the rest...shovel that stuff right onto the chute
    and into the trailer.

RE: plumbing

    I'll second the opinion in an earlier reply:  Copper feed lines,
    plastic waste pipes.

	I'm in the same situation Angela is in, only I've got a more
immediate problem.  The walls around my tub are rotted through and I
HAVE to replace them next week (before the in-laws come to visit).
My wife has discovered Color Tile, so I already know what the surface
will be (you guessed it, Ceramic Tile!). 

	MY question is, what do I put UNDER the Tile?  I've been given
the following advice;

	1)  Blue Board  (water-resistant)

	2)  Durock  (water-proof)

Any suggestions?  I'm new to the Leominster area, so if anyone knows of
good suppliers around there, that'll help too.

							-Steve

    Re: .25:   Try marine grade plywood as a tile backer.   Do not use
    Blue Board - it is intended as a regular wall board and will accept
    ONE wet dosing with the skim coat of plaster.   Green board is 
    what you really meant, and my plumber said that the plywood (laid
    on "edge" so you go four feet up) with regular sheetrock above that
    (so you can paint from the last course of tile to the ceiling) is
    more than adequate.
    
    Just a word of caution:  Check that your ceilings are level before
    putting tile all the way.   I didn't and it looks horrible.   Next
    time, I'll lay the last course of tile about 4-6 inches below the
    ceiling.
    
    One last question:   Is green board paintable?   It looked sufficiently
    "slick" that painting would be difficult, that's why I used regular
    sheetrock from the plywood to the ceiling.
    
    P.S.   I've lived in houses that had only regular sheetrock as a
    tile backer.   It WILL be just fine, but you have to make sure there
    are NO cracks in the grout.   An annual checkup should give you
    many years of service.   Using a vinyl additive in the grout will
    help keep it pliable and reduce cracking so you don't have to regrout.

	re: .25  (Hi Steve...)

	For backing behind ceramic tile in a shower/bath you may want to
	look into something called "magic board".  It's expensive (what 
	isn't?), but it is made specially for this purpose.  Don't know
	where in Leominster (?) you can find it, but they carry it in 
	North Country Tile in Williston, Vt.  

	Making any trips up this way?

	-gary

Re: .27  Hi Gary - It's always good to hear from old friends.  Won't 
	 be back to God's country before this project is done.  :-(


	I've run into another problem (?) in trying to put new walls
around the tub.  It seems the tub is not level.  Water still drains
out of it okay but I'm told I should level it, with the assurance
that levelling the tub is "not too difficult".  Therein lies my 
problem -- nobody is willing to share the secret of how to level my
tub.  Is there a deep dark secret to this or is there someone who
CAN tell me how to do it before I give up and decide to have a beer?

    I suspect that .27 meant "wonder board" - that's what we were advised
    to use by our tile supplier (Brisckhouse Tile, in Keene NH - closer
    than VT to Leominster).  But when we informed them that there was
    already drywall around the tub/shower alcove we were advised that
    we should just go ahead and tile over it rather than lining it with
    a layer of wonderboard or marine plywood - but to watch the grout
    condition carefully.
    
    with a shower head mounted fairly high on one wall, I'm planning
    to tile the ceiling as well as all walls - I don't think there is
    any difference between the bottom four feet and the rest of the
    wall (as suggested in .26) in that case.
    
    good luck!

The previous owner of our condo wallpapered the bathroom. From the
extra that they left, I could see that, to put it up, all you needed
to do was wet the back with water.  I'm wondering if this is a good
idea for a BATHROOM, as, over time, our hot showers seem to have
steamed most of the wallpaper off the walls. Re-wallpapering is in
order.  Can some one tell me 

1) What sort of wallpaper I can get that will stay up over time in a 
   steamy bathroom.

2) Am I correct that if I borrow an electric sander, it will be easy 
   to smooth anyplaces where the old paper doesnt come off clean, or leaves
   glue?

3) Anything else I should know? 

Details:  The wallpaper is mounted on plain wallboard  (sheetrock), I
am moderately handy, but somewhat inexperienced in hanging/removing
wallpaper. 

	thanks muchly in advance 

I wouldn't even consider sanding.  Old glue can relatively easily be 
removed by wetting.  I usually use a very wet sponge and go over the 
wall several time to let the glue absorb the water.  Adding some vinegar 
to the water is supposed to help as well.

I don't think there is a big deal about the kind of glue used since if 
put up properly, no moisture should get under the paper (believe that 
one and I'll sell you some land in florida).  But seriously, I think 
that regular, water soluble glue is used even in bathrooms.  If moisture 
is that big a problem, you should either keep a window cracked open a 
tad or install a fan.  I now I've been planning on putting in a fan for 
at least 5 years.

-mark

    Vinyl wallpaper might be the ticket for a bathroom.  It's available
    in a wide variety of styles, and I would think it would be relatively
    waterproof.  To get it off, (if and when) just lift a corner and 
    it peels (so they claim - I've never done it).  
    
    Getting the old glue off might be a problem, depending on what
    they did (or didn't) do to the wallboard before they put on the
    paper.  They SHOULD have sealed the wallboard by painting it or
    something, but if they just put the wallpaper over the bare
    wallboard and you try wetting the old glue to get it off, you
    may end up dissolving the paper on the wallboard as well.  The
    normal way to get the old glue off is to wash it - sanding would
    be an absolute last resort, seems to me - but go easy on the
    amount of water until you find out how the wallboard is going to
    take it.

    I've wallpapered 3 rooms in my home which I'm proud to show off.
    Sure, I could show you all the little spots where I wanted to be
    more perfect...but a pro could show you the same spots in his/her
    work. I found that one of the most important points in wallpaper
    hanging, and in most jobs, was preparation. The sheetrock or plaster
    must be sealed so no liquid (water or glue) may penetrate. Also,
    this sealer provides some 'tooth' for the paper to grab onto. There
    are many brands, I happened to use white oilbase paint applied to
    raw plaster walls. Same in the bathroom. This barrier between the
    wall and the paper also helps if in the future you need to strip 
    the wallpaper off. The water (or vinegar:ughh) will hopefully be
    soaked up by the paper and not be allowed to enter the plaster making
    for easier removal.
    
    I never thought much of the pre-pasted wallpapers as I always
    remembered my mother wallpapering the den....and my brother and I
    got to apply the paste with a huge brush. Most wallpaper comes
    pre-pasted now-a-days and following the manufactures directions,
    turns out a nice job. My neighbor hung the first few strips
    then I was on my own. One important thing to remember...is....
    after the paper is in place and sponged off,>>> don't mess with
    it!
    
    As far as the bathroom goes....I used a vinyl paper as its easier
    to clean. You'll find you have to sponge it off once in a great
    while as it becomes dirty from the constant steam generated from
    hot showers.
    
    The best thing I did for the bathroom though was to install a
    combination fan/light. It really does a good job exhausting the
    humidity. Pretty easy to install from the 2nd floor ceiling up 
    through the attic, a 1st floor installation would be fan only
    (no light) through an outside wall.  

    As -.1 hinted, the prepasted papers today are pretty good.

    I would caution a novice about vinyl wallpaper -- I find it 
    harder to work with; you might want to cut your teeth on 
    regular wallpaper first.

    I have used regular, pre-pasted wallpaper in three bathrooms 
    and have never had any falling problems.  As was mentioned 
    earlier, proper wall preparation is the key.

Frank

    When I papered my bathroom, I used some stuff called "wall size"
    I applied it a couple days before I put the paper up. I used the
    pre-pasted paper but I also used paste. I haven't seen one peice
    peel since I put it up. approx 1 yr ago. I also have a ceiling fan.
    
    

thanx for the replies so far, some more info, questions...

1) bathroom has no window, has fan which doesn't do adaquate job.

2) someone suggested CONTACT paper - in fact, I remember seeing a few 
years ago a CONTACT like paper that was porous, and thus considerably 
easier to use.  any experience with these?

3) If I'm going to have to paint first anyway - why not just paint it 
and be done with it? (or am I missing something).

thanx again, & in advance	/j

First of all you NEVER want to use contact paper!!!  That's essentially 
like a vey big bumber sticker.  Put it on and it's there forever.  Also,
you had better be exact when you place it.  The nice thing about 
wallpaper is that it literally slides after you put it in place so that 
you can fine tune it.

As an earlier note mentioned, don't forget the wall sizing...  This is 
very important to both help the paper slide as well as stick when 
finally dried.

As for painting, we're not saying you have to do a professional job.  
The main purpose of the paint is to ceil the wallboard/plaster and keep 
it from sucking all the paste off the paper.  It also makes it easier to 
remove the paper when the time comes.

Pick any old color (provided it's not dark enough to show through) and 
slap it on.  Doesn't even really matter that much if your messy.  In 
fact, feel free to even get it on the ceiling since you should probably 
paint the ceiling afterwards covering any places where you got careless.
In our house when I stripped some old paper I noticed that the paint on 
the walls were applied exclusively with a roller and never came within 3 
inches of the ceilings, baseboards or corners.  Of course my walls aree
plaster over blueboard and if one has to do a little scraping to get the 
paper off, one doesn't have to worry about gouging the sheetrock.

As a final note, let me put a plug in for blueboard/plaster.  This is 
the greatest stuff I've ever seen.  It's so hard that you can't scrape 
it if you try.  As I said before, it makes it extremely easy to scrape 
off wallpaper because you're not always worrying about ripping the 
sheetrock which isn't hard t odo if you're not careful.  Of course the 
other big benefit is that you never see sheetrock screws or seams 
either.

-mark

    No one has mentioned it yet, but there are wall primers made 
    specifically for hanging wallpaper, whether the walls are bare or
    have the old paper still on them.  It's probably a must if you choose
    vinyl paper for a steamy bathroom.

    If you are a novice, go to a paint/wallpaper store and buy a short
    book (booklet) on hanging wallpaper.  Follow those directions and
    you'll have no problems.  Siziing is the key to everything in the
    wallpaper area and if you size your walls properly, you'll be happy
    with all your results.   I've been an on again, off again wallpaper
    hanger since I was ten - sizing is the key.
    

    I want enlarge my linnen closet which is at the end of the tub.
    
    PROBLEM: I need a 4' tub. A cast iron 4' cost ~$450.00 and takes
    6-8 weeks to get. Somerville Lumber has 4' Steel tubs for only 
    $134.99. Is there something wrong with a steel tub? My other choice
    is a 4'6" fiberglass for ~$350.00. Does anybody have any suggestions?
    
    			Thanks in advance, Dave

RE: Fans in bathrooms

I'd hate to see all that heat and moisture thrown away outside in the winter.
Could you vent that to somewhere in the house, maybe the return duct or furnace
output, if you have Hot Air heating?  Could you do the same with clothes
dryer exhaust, I wonder...
                          
Jim.

PS  Obviously I don't know what I'm talking about, right? 

    re .10 - (could you vent bathroom fans to somewhere in the house?)
    
    first, I'm not sure it's allowed by code or health regs.  also,
    there are times when I'd want the bathroom fan vented outside,
    preferrably with a vacuum airlock isolating the rest of the house    :-)

    re .10 - (could you do the same with clothes dryer exhaust?)
    
    our new Whirlpool dryer instruction book indicates that there are
    concerns over lint, particularly as a potential fire hazard, and
    that they offer a kit (part number is in the book) to allow conversion
    of dryer exhaust to safely vent indoors for heat/humidity conservation.
    I plan to investigate this kit myself (sometime) and will try to
    remember to report the results here.

    re Venting clothes dryer exhaust -  It is illegal (at least in
    Massachusetts) to vent a gas dryer into the house.

        $450.00 seems awful expensive for a  4 footer!  I  bought a 5ft.
    tub, an Elger low profile toilet, and a sink and vanity from sommer-
    ville two years ago and it all cost me  $599.00! They must have gone
    up. Yes the tub is cast iron. Yes the vanity is solid oak.

    re .30
    
    Seems to me that the steel tub would flex a lot more than the cast
    iron, and as a result I wouldn't expect the enamel coating to stand
    up as well.

    You really don't want to vent the same air back into
    the house.  What you really want to have is an air to
    air heat exchanger.  The outgoing warm stale air is used
    to warm up incoming fresh air.
    
    -al

The reason that the 4' tub is more expensive is that it is non-standard.  The 
manufacturers make and sell millions of 5' tubs, so they can make them more 
cheaply.  Anything other than 5' is more expensive, even if it's smaller, since 
they don't sell many.  We had wanted a 6' tub (so I could take a bath in it), 
but discovered that the cheapest we could find was about $1100.

Paul

    Before you try to wallpaper a bathroom, try it firdt on another
    room.  A bathroom is THE MOST DIFFICULT room in the house to paper.
    It doesn't look hard but look again at all the cuts you'll have
    to make around the sink, shower etc.  If you do start with the bathroom
    start at the vanity and end over the tub or the door so that the
    match will be right in places that you can see.
    
    
    				Good luck
    				    KO

    re.11,12,13
    I'm now using for the third year a device called a heat saver
    that I use on my dryer(electric) vent that allows venting
    the dryer exaust into the house.
    It is a very basic valve that you throw the lever and it forces
    the air thru a filter that looks like a nylon stocking and then
    into the house the other position allows venting to the outside
    for summer use.
    Belive me this really puts the humidity into the air when venting
    inside the exhaust gos into my crawl space/basement shop area
    and really warms it up. My furnace is near the exhaust so I also
    get humidity advantages upstairs.
    This gizmo is one i really like and havent really noticed any problems
    with lint or increased dust at all. I do notice fewer sinus problems
    than before in this desert of colorado.
    BTW- if you do several loads together you can actually turn the
    house into a steam room so you may only want to vent one or two
    turnings inside.

    Another thing to consider is the high price you will pay if you
    want to get a decent sliding door unit for the shorter tub.  The
    shorter door units are also special order and will cost about the
    same as the tub unit.  Sears has some in their catalog at a more
    reasonable price but from the catalog it is difficult to judge the
    quality.  

    SPAGS had a steel tub (the display tub) for sale last night for
    $50.  It looked in perfectly good shape.  It was the display unit,
    but I don't think too many people had tried it out.
    It's sitting outside the Olde Schoolhouse near the Stanley doors.
    (I don't think the rain could have hurt it too much either.)
    

    re .33 - Paul is right, the price penalty is simply reflecting the
    lower volumes of non-standard products (and, of course, helping
    to ensure them!).  When we built this summer we were also looking
    into a 6' tub and I was impressed by the price differential for
    everything other than 5' tubs.  We were told that 6' tubs were not
    readily available, but did find a 5 1/2 footer in the Eljer catalog.
    it cost $435 more than the standard 5' model, which I think made
    the total cost around $800 (not really sure, all I know for sure
    is the upcharge).  Since I'm tall enough for the discomfort of a
    world designed by short people to bug me, the added cost was readily
    justifiable.  Point is, if you have a non-standard requirement,
    or even a preference for something unusual, the effort of shopping for
    it may pay off.

    The same thing applies to toilets; 12" rough is the most common
    and costs less than 10" or 14" rough toilets.
    
    
    Mark
    

    Is this doable?  I have what I think is semi-gloss (or good quality
    paint) over wallpaper.  The wall seams are so regular that it must
    be paper.  I've steamed paper before and don't like doing it.  I
    saw chemicals (beyond vinegar and water) mentioned in earlier note
    but am not familiar with what this involves.
    
    Suggestions?  I've also thought of sanding the wall, as is, smooth
    (to get rid of the seams in the paper), then painting again.  I
    have no idea of what shape the paper or wall is under the paint.

	The walls we just finished had 3 layers of wallpaper with a coat
	of oil base in the middle, and another on top. Even the steamer
	with a perforator didn't help much.

	We finally found a product that really worked, called DIF. After
	about half of the job was done, an old-timer noticed us buying
	more DIF, and mentioned that SPIC'n'SPAN worked just as well. He
	was right!

	-Bob B.

    How do I use the Spic'N'Span?  Just wash the walls with it?  Super
    concentrated or normal strength?  A lot of scraping?? Will there be
    leftover wallpaper for me to steam or does it take that off too?

	Yep. Just wash the walls and let it soak for 5 or 10 minutes. Then
	scrape. The paper should come off with the paint. In stubborn areas
	it may help to scratch the paint to get it to soak into the paper
	faster. I'm not sure about the mix, but I think it was normal
	strength.

ok, you all have convinced me.  I WON'T make the bathroom my first 
job.   

What should I expect to pay for a professional job?
Can you recommend anyone in the East-of-Worcester area?

    

	Jeff,

	I will try and give you an idea of how much you can 
expect to pay if you decide to have someone wallpaper your 
bathroom.

	I myself have been in the painting/papering business 
for 15+ years and when it comes to doing bathrooms I find them 
a real pain in the butt.  However, with patience they can be done.

	My general rule of thumb is that when it comes to 
doing bathrooms I have charged anywhere from $35 up to $75 
(it was a big bathroom).  I have a set up fee of $15 dollars 
(seeing I live in Hudson MA, I find myself having to travel 
allot to get to people's houses and this fee covers time and gas 
while on the road.)  After this fee I charge a flat fee of $15 per 
double roll.  I found by doing it this way, most of my clients 
can accurately determine how much it will cost them to have a job 
done.

	In your note, you didn't mention how big your bathroom is 
and whether or not it would be prepped.  I would say that you can 
expect to pay anywhere from 40-60 dollars.  Of course if the person 
who does your job has to do the prepping besides (stripping old paper 
and the sizing the walls) you can expect to pay a little more.


	If you wish to send me mail, I would be glad to help you
with other questions you might have.

mark

OK - this weekend, we got chemical wallpaper remover, some spatulas, 
and successfully removed all the wallpaper and glue.  I have one 
question:  We discovered that under the wallpaper, the prior owners 
sealed the wall in a sort of random design (a stripe here, a blotch 
there), the sealing paint peels just a bit at the edge, but does not 
seem to come off easily.  I realize we have to seal the rest of the 
plain sheetrock - but what should I do at the new-sealing/old-sealing 
boundary?  Nothing?  Sand down the edges (there are a LOT of linear 
feet of them), or ......???

PPS:  If I decided to PAINT the bathroom, would I have to seal it any 
differently?  Will any paint do?

Thanks to your experienced DIYers (without this notes file, we would 
have not gotten even this far!)

From:	NHL::PILOTTE      "Pirate of Adventure" 26-JAN-1987 14:33
Subj:	RE: BATHROOM


	Unless you want another botch job, sanding is in order.
It would be to your advantage to do the job right this time.  What I 
can suggest is 

A.)  If you decide to wallpaper then you can probably get away with
     just sanding the walls by hand using a medium sandpaper.  It
     doesn't have to be fancy just quickly go over the entire wall 
     surface.  I would then recommend either a vinyl coated or a pure
     vinyl(cloth) type of wallpaper.  The heavy knapp paper will easily
     hide any imperfections of the wall surface.

B.)  If you decide to paint your walls, i would then recommend that you
     get a block sander (hand type) and use both a medium sandpaper for 
     first pass and then a fine sandpaper to smooth out the surface. You
     should also sand lightly with a fine paper in between primer and 
     first coat of paint.  For a finish coat you should be using a semi-gloss
     type of paint to allow for wash-ability.

	In answer to your other question on what type of primer to use,
here are a few suggestions.  I am very fond of Touraine Paints and as
a contractor this is where I do my business.  They have several products
on the market but the two I like the most are.... 
A.) #32 oil base primer and B.) BIN primer.

	The difference between the two is (A) is good when being applied 
to new surfaces or to surfaces that are intended for wallpaper. (B) is good
for old surfaces or where there is concern about stains (such as water stains)
bleeding through the newly painted surface.

	Also be aware that if you use either of these two paints and you
decide to wallpaper, that there is no need to size the walls.

	Just for your information there are two types of wall size that I 
do use and they are (A.) Wonder Base   and  (B.) Shields.

	(A.) is used on any type of bare plaster surface or over previously
painted surfaces.  This painted surface would have been there a while and 
what you would be doing is neutralizing the oily surface.

	(B.) is used on any type of new sheetrock surface or any kind of
paper surface.

	mark

Could someone recommend a place in Hudson MA, or Framingham Centre, 
or, if necessary, Worcester/Shrewsbury, that has a reasonably wide 
selection of vinyl wallpaper ar reasonable prices?  What should I 
expect to pay for about 150 sq.ft.?
Thanx/j

FYI - I found an excellent place  in Worcester for novices to shop for 
wallpaper and advice:  Edwards, at Kelly Sq. in Worcester. -  Wide 
selection, with all in-stock patterns displayed, and many knowledgable 
people.

    An even better place if you're in Worcester is Leo's on Park Ave.
    Best prices, wide selection, and good advice.
    
    Pete

And Henry's on Park Ave, has a wide selection, decent prices, and good help...

    re: .26
                 Where is Leo's on Park Ave? i've lived in Worcester
    all my life and can't picture it...

    Leo's is what I call Henry's when I think I know the right name
    but don't.  At least I had the gender right!
    
    I promise I'll never make a misteak again.
    
    Pete

    I'm looking for a very utilitarian medicine cabinet to replace same.
    I want it to fit in the same recess, so size is fairly critical.
    Any recommendations on a place to shop, one that might have a few
    vanilla models to choose from?
    
    To roughly define my shopping range, I live in Westford, MA, and work
    in Marlboro.
    
    Thanks, Chuck

    Sommerville Lumber has a very big selection of medicine cabinets.
    
    I assume that when you said Spags doesn't fit, that you checked
    the ones in the schoolhouse in addition to the ones in the plumbing
    department.
    

                Good luck!  I had much the same problem a few years ago
        and nearly went nuts trying to find something that would fit an
        existing opening. I never did find a commercial cabinet that
        would fit.
                
                I solved it by building my own out of wood. I was aided
        by the fact that the opening was moderately large and extra deep
        as the wall was constructed for the vent pipe and was about 3-4
        times as thick as a normal wall. This meant that the thickness
        of the wood wasn't a problem.
                
                What I built was a box with a plywood back, 1x4's for
        sides and the center vertical and 1x2's for the outside trim. I
        then put those metal shelving tracks inside (the ones that use
        those little clips) and had a glass company make some plate
        glass shelves (just cut to slightly undersize for easy fit and
        the edges rounded for saftey). I had the same glass company make
        up a pair of sliding glass mirror doors complete with tracks and
        rollers. It looks good and works well.
                
                /s/     Bob

    Try electric lighting stores like Marlboro Electric.  Most of
    these places carry Nu-Tone brand medicine cabinets.
    
    -al

        I had a brainstorm.  Howzbout we put a floor drain in the bathroom
    in our yet-to-be-built house?  Especially the one on the second floor.
    I don't think it'd be difficult to slope the floor to drain to one spot.
    There are two or three drain stacks? already under the floor - it should
    be easy to connect to.  See, you hear horror stories of some plumbing
    problem in the bathroom (or kitchen, or laundry room) that spews water
    all over, usually while you're on a 2-week vacation, sits on the bathroom
    floor until it finds its own way down, usually through the ceiling below
    onto the piano, Oriental rug, hardwood floor, etc etc.
        Anything wrong, impractical or infeasible with a floor drain?

Sounds like it could be done.  You'd need enough vertical space for a 
trap, and you'd have to pour some water down it once in a while to keep 
the trap from drying out and letting sewer gas into the house, but it's 
not like the system wouldn't remind you if you forgot. :-)  I don't 
think bathroom disasters are common enough that contractors would spend 
the money to build drains in every bathroom they make, but if you're 
planning a few, then it might be cost effective for you.

					>>>==>PStJTT

No particular reason not to.  If you're going to do that anyway, consider 
making the bathroom large enough (or making a connecting room) for the laundry.
It really is MUCH more convenient to have the laundry upstairs, except for the 
worry about drainage if the washer goes on the fritz.  If you put in a floor 
drain, then you don't have to worry about that.

Paul

    I think the practice is fairly commmon in other countries, actually.
    Makes great sense.  If you get the floor *REALLY* waterproof, it
    would be a great help when washing down the floor, too.  None of
    this "damp mop" stuff - hose it down!

Also consider installing a big clean out plug in that bathroom 
floor.  My parents' home had one in each bath -- made it real 
easy to snake the inevitable problems.

Without a 'public' clean out, I have spent hours, cross legged in a 
closet, fishing snakes below floor level, under the dark tub but 
also over the 'public' dining roon plaster ceiling.

what always surprised me is a bathroom with a flush FHA vent in the floor - 
seems to accidently fill this function quite nicely.  (Don't let your 
builder do this)

    .25 to .29, a slightly different angle.  I'm buying a house this
    month that has a one-piece fiberglas tub/shower.  The walls over
    and around are wallboard < i don't know what kind, i.e. wonder board,
    blueboard, etc. >.  The wallboard over the fiberglas walls has mildew
    in it already (house is 6-7 yrs. old).  It has been recommended
    to me to tile just the area over the tub enclosure to the ceiling.
    
    I solicit your thoughts.  I'm not in the house yet, but the shower
    is something I'd like to make right as soon as possible after closing!
    
    Do I	
    	1. Apply tile to the painted walls after cleaning mildew off?
        2. Strip the paint and then tile?
        3. Don't tile?
        4. Tear out the walls and start from scratch?
    
    I'd appreciate your ideas.
    
    Elaine
    

      It is proper to tile over sound painted walls. You should just
    sand lightly (by hand) first. It is usually very difficult to strip
    paint from interior walls, and is likely not needed. If there is
    mildew on the painted walls, just wash first with a 50/50 solution
    of household bleach and water. The mildew will be killed and will
    disappear. If it does not disappear then it is not mildew.
    
    					Kenny

    re .38: Or wash off the mildew (.39), then repaint with a semi-gloss
    paint to which you have added a mildewcide (available at paint stores),
    then improve ventilation in the bathroom (ie, fix the problem, not
    the symptom).

    Re: .6  How would you slope the floor properly?

    I'm not sure.  I've heard that you can use some kind of "mud" (similar to
    joint compound?).  Using this, some consistent grades achieved with a
    2' or so level, and small tiles or flexible vinyl-type flooring, I THINK
    I could wind up with a not-too-obviously-sloping floor.  Actually, now
    that I think about it, a sloped floor might present a problem when it
    comes to seating the toilet.  I re-did a bathroom where the floor was
    just not level and the wax seal just wouldn't.  I wound up routing grooves
    in the plywood flooring for the toilet footing to seat into.

    Any other ideas?

    RE: .7
    
    Would floor leveler (in this case, unleveler) work for the slope?
    I would think you would want a VERY small slant.

    Make the area around the base of the toilet the high spot and keep
    it level.  The should solve the problem.  You wouldn't want the
    water to collect at the intersection of the toilet and the floor
    anyway.

    re: .40
    
    Good point!  The bathroom has a fan, but I don't know how good the
    previous owners were about using it!  I didn't know about mildewcide.
    I'll look into it:  Thanks!
    
    re: .39
    
    Thanks for the answer to the question I asked.  I may tile in addition
    to improving the ventilation, just for appearance' sake.  It doesn't
    sound as bad as I feared.
    

    I need advice on how to attach a huge mirror (48" x 52" x 1/4")
    on the wall over the sink.  I don't want to use plastic mirror clips
    because I don't like how it looks (that's what's holding it there
    now).  I'd like the mirror to rest flush on the back-splash.  I
    tried the local glass company to see if there is a type of clip
    that wouldn't show as much and bring the mirror closer to the back-
    splash, but there's nothing.  He recommended an adhesive but warned
    that it's permanent, in other words, the wall becomes part of the
    mirror!  Also, the wall itself is greenboard (brand new) with a
    coat of paint.
    
    Any advice?  Thanks.

    Addition to .42
    
    I don't plan on removing the mirror in the near or distant future,
    so if that adhesive is the best way to go, let me know.  Thanks
    again.

      I don't like to use things like adhesives because they are too
    permanent. I have some large mirrors in my bathrooms that are held
    by metal brackets on the back that are slotted to accept studs which
    are in the wall. The mirror just slides down on them with no apparent
    fasteners. (Kind of like hanging a wall clock on a screw by the slot
    in the back)  These mirrors aren't more than 7 years old, so maybe
    the brackets are still available. I don't know the name but maybe
    I can find out.
    
    					Kenny

    re .44
    These type of brackets can normally be found in a bathroom specialty
    shop or a commercial-type glass company -- use your fingers to shop.
    
    There are also special J-type clamps made of stainless steel or
    chrome plated for the job.  You attach the bottom pair to the wall.
    You mark and install screws for top pair behind the yet-to-be placed
    mirror.  Set the mirror in the bottom two clamps.  Slide the top
    two clamps over the just-installed screws while simultaneously
    catching the top edge of the mirror and drawing it towards the wall.
    Gravity holds the mirror into the bottom two clamps.  Gravity holds
    the top two clamps onto the screws and onto the mirror.
    
    Happy fastening...
    
    Randy
    

    Since you're not planning on taking this thing down, I'd use adhesive.
    
    
    I installed several LARGE (ie: 6' x 8') in a gym one time (a bunch
    of body builders wanted to watch themselves lift)  Anyway, what
    we did is put up a small wood rail to hold the weight of the mirror
    where the bottom of the mirror sat.  Then we put big globs of roofing
    tar (the black goop stuff) on the wall.  Sit the mirror on the wood
    rail and push it into the goop.   It WILL come off, but will probably
    take some paint/plaster with it when it does. (you can get it off
    for the first few days rather easily, but when the tar dries, it's
    a little harder)
    
    They're still up there, after 5 years.
    
    
    -bill

    re .45  "J-type clips"
    
    Can you tell me where I can get them?  I called a glass shop (good
    size business) and a couple hardware stores and no luck.  One store
    had metal clips that worked, and showed, like the plastic clips.
    (Don't tell me.........Spags, right?!)
    
    re .46  adhesive
    
    I'm definitely not ruling out adhesive, but I guess I need peace
    of mind of having something like a clip supporting the front-side
    of the mirror, no matter how little it is.  I've thought of framing
    around it with some sort of molding, but I'm not sure it'll look
    good.  Has anyone done this (molding) and care to comment?

    re .-1, "Peace of Mind"
    
    Construction adhesive applied over that large a surface area will
    have so much surface tension that the bond will be stronger than
    the mirror glass.
    
    I wouldn't worry about it.
    

    I house that I rented had the neatest job ...
    
    On top of the splash back was a "J" channel of aluminium.  I preume
    that the back (upright) part of the "J" was screwed to the studs.
    The bottom reted onthe splash back, and the mirroe just rested in
    the channel.  The top was held against the wall by those metal clips
    - the ones that showed.  Only - have you ever noiced that youy don't
    look at the top of the mirror, only the bottom.
    
    One caution, and it applies to ANY kind of fastening:  If the mirror
    is too close to the water, it will get splashed behind, and the
    slivering may start to come off.
    
    

>                                Only - have you ever noiced that youy don't
>   look at the top of the mirror, only the bottom.
    
    Andrew, maybe you don't look at the top of the mirror, but some of us
    are forced to because of the #$@&^!!#* short mirror.  I get really
    annoyed at mirrors that chop off my head.  I don't like shaving on my
    knees.

    Steveg
        
    I also get annoyed at showerheads that try to water my navel. 

    re .50   Very funny, Steve.  I know what you mean.  Maybe you should
             try to buy Wilt Chamberlain's house as your next home! 8*)
             This is exactly why I have this huge mirror (in my 2nd
             bath).  I figure, as time goes by and the kids get older,
             I'll be forced to use that bath anyway, so why not have
             the luxury of shaving standing straight up (not intended
             as some might take it!). 
    

    re .47 -- I got a set of the J-shaped clips at Lakeside Glass in
    Nashua NH. Since you didn't say where you are, I don't know whether
    this helps you...
    
    					Val

  In the past week, I have been re-doing my bathroom due to water damage
over the past 20 years (age of the house).  In looking for information and
instructions on a lot of the "how to's", I've purchased 2 books, picked up
dozens of pamphlets, and of course, searched in the notes files.  I though
that this little spot could be used for all the un-planned, non-written
little problems that always seem to happen.  this may get a little lenghy,
and I'm still not yet finished with the bath, so I'll do them in replies
and add more as I get things done.

   First, a little background...  as I said, the house is about 20 years old,
and the bathroom was about  8' X 4' at the longest/widest point. It had a small
(2' X 1.5') linen closet, 1 wall sink, standard size cast tub, 1 medicine
cabinate with a 15"(?) florescent light, and of course a commode.  The house is
occupied by 3 persons of the male gender, so some things were done with this
in mind. My brother and I own the house, and all work was/is being done by us.


   We (my brother and I) had made plans to do this and began 1 week in advance,
by shopping for prices and determining what was needed/wanted. In the notes
here, someone had mentioned marine plywood for the wall around the tub... that
sounded like a very good perminate fix to the floor also.  In my search for the
marine plywood (which no one that I called stocks and order time was 2 days to
2 weeks at a price of $50/sheet for 4' X 8' X 1/2"), I located some "medium
density overlay" or MDO plywood for about half the cost and in stock.  This
MDO plywood has a vinyl type covering on one side that protects the wood from
absorbing water (tested, I picked it up in the rain).  The next thing was a 
new tub ( cleansers had taken their toll).   The best price was at New England
Home Center, in Methuen, mass ($195). They also had an overstock item, a one
piece - double sink vanity top. With 2 people in the bathroom trying to shave
at the same time, there was no room/mirror... so we had decided on a 5' vanity
with double sinks, we had just found the right item at the right price. With
the added sink, we were going to need at least one new faucet set-up, and was
uncertain of matching the existing, so we looked at new faucets while we were
there.  We also wanted a bath light/fan combo unit and looked while we were
there. We came accross a mirror that had a chip in the corner that will be
coverable with corner hangers.. they gave us 20% off retail for that.

  We needed a vanity for the cover and had been checking prices the previous
week.. we also looked while we were at all the lumber/kitchen/bath stores, we
ordered it thru Mr. Plummer in Nashua (approx 1 week wait, price increase not
yet in effect).  We went to every place that we could find in the area from
the yellow pages, to find fixtures that would match, that was to our liking.
One place (don't recall the name) finally told us their distributor was in 
Manchester N.H. and gave us directions to "Goulets" on Elm st.  They were the
only ones that had a matched set with as close to what we wanted in stock...
the reason for 'in stock' was a 4 to 8 week wait on any ordered in any of the
dozen or so places we went.  Goulet still gave us the wrong tub drain that
we selected and didn't have the one we wanted in stock. We also found out upon
installing the tub faucets, that one handle is broken - hope they'll exchange
it.

  Now that we had enough to get started, we proceded to tear down the sheet
rock in the bathroom.  The water damage was worse that predicted, and we ended
up tearing down an adjacent bedroom closet wall and replacing that, and the 
wall behind the tub to the bedroom had to be sectioned 2 feet up from the floor.
We calculated what we needed to move the plumming for the double sinks and
got what we thought was enough... I had to make 3 more trips to the store for
unplanned plumming. 
  Now that we had the walls down to studs, we found that the insulation to be
only 1 1/2" thick (or is that thin). My brother went out to get the insulation
and also found a fan/light combo.. somewhere.. was some electric supply in 
Nashua.
  We also had decided to stay with the conventional tile in the tub area rather
than a tub surround... the tile is cheaper (if you do it yourself) and I think,
personally, that it looks nicer...., corean (sp?), altho the best, was 
definately too expensive for us.  We got the tile at "tile city" (?) in Nashua,
and found a floor tile that went well with the vanity top, so the floor will be
tiled also..  they gave us 20% off floor tile since we purchased both there, 
the tub tile was already 20% off (sale).

  We found that, any repairing of the walls could be done with the 2 x 4 's
that had come from a sub wall for the medicine cabinate and the old linen 
closet...  recomendations... the wood is old and dry.. very difficult to pound
a 10 penny nail into and splits easily, If you can, purchase new lumber to do
any rebuilds.  I have been photographing as we go.. I didn't start with a
"before" picture as I wished I should have.

    

    
    
    .. the plumming!  AARRRHHH!  What a hassel.  After we shut off the
    water to the house and waited for the pipes to drain (turned on the
    faucet in the basement), we proceeded to take apart the pipes. after 30
    feet of new copper tubing and numerous trips to the hardware store and
    3 nights_after_work working on it, we found that we had the supply
    pipes in the way of the drain pipes (poor planning).  after we adjusted
    the pipes for the drain, we then had 2 'leakers' to go back and
    repair.  Now we had to adjust the drain because of a "V" pipe that
    juts off at some weird angle like 18 degrees... and of course, NO
    ONE makes a 72 or 18 degree angle to make it straight.  Thru
    combinations of 30's and 45's we have it so it's workable.  Next
    time... it may be worth the 15 - 20 per hour to have a plummer in
    there for 3 or 4 hours to do it quicker and maybe (?) better.
    

    
    
    Now.. I'm on the electricity.  Now I've got 2 sunset books...
    one I forgot to mention on the plumming and the other on bathroom
    remodeling.   One thing to say on these books ... almost USELESS!
    I think I could tear one page out of each one that would be infomative
    to me.  
    
    Not to stray too much, but, I built a room for my 'woman' in her
    basement (she bought materials), and i wired the whole thing...
    not a problem and still works fine.   My bathroom should be so easy!,
    but NOoo.. ... I wired the fan/light, light part to the outside
    switch (smart huh?), the fan, light over the sinks, and 2 new dual
    outlets are tapped into a bedroom circuit..   all lights,fan,outlets
    work fine - till I turn the fan off!  At that point it's new FUSE
    time. I left the fan on, turned on every light and plugged something
    in to all outlets to this circuit, and it wasnt' until I turned
    off the fan in the bath that the fuse blew.  I don't understand
    it.... but I'm hoping to figure it out tonight.... you maybe reading
    my obituary tomorrow..   we'll see!
    

    Please let me know where you could find plumber that charges 15
    - 20 dollars per hour. Mine charges 50/hr.
    
    Thanks
    

Where do you live? - my old (Worcester) and my new (hudson) plumber both 
charge $28/hr portal-to-portal

    
    
    was going to get this plummer for this price ($15 - $20 hr) for
    2 reasons..:
    
    1. he's  a friend of a friend of a cousins friend.. etc.
    
    2. he's only got his apprentices' licence.. (this would have been
    a side job.. "hush hush")
    
    reason 2 is the one why we didnt have him do it.
    
    

    
    
    well, we've got the sheetrock on 3 of the 4 walls... the 4th wall
    has the electricity and plumming on it.. that's going to be a busy
    wall to cut the sheetrock.  Started taping and smoothing the screw
    holes... this is going to be a slow process.  Hoping to do the tile
    work on saturday around the tub... maybe the floor tile too... I'll
    have to see how things go with the tub tile.
    

RE: 1308.2 

    > Now.. I'm on the electricity.  Now I've got 2 sunset books...
    one I forgot to mention on the plumming and the other on bathroom
    remodeling.   One thing to say on these books ... almost USELESS!
    I think I could tear one page out of each one that would be infomative
    to me.  <
    
	I have to put my 2 cents in here.  From what I can see you are
    a fairly expereienced DIYer.  When I do a project I read all the
    available books, magazines relevant, etc.  I just got turned on to
    NOTES about a week ago, and have already found some excellent 
    information to some of my problems.  Anyways I always peruse the
    books before I buy them and will often buy a book specifically for
    one idea.  Sunset books of which I have at least 6 or 7 are 
    Excellent books for IDEAs.  I just picked up Garages, Attics and
    Basement storage and it is loaded to the gills with ideas...

	If you want how to information I would suggest getting the
    Time-Life series Home-Improvement or Home Repair the latter being
    a new series just started but quite good.  Also Popular Science
    Skill books and Popular Mechanics Encyclopedia, Reader's Digest
    Fix-it-yourself (yellow cover) is a good over all source.  For
    electrical references three books in an earlier note are quite 
    excellent.  Sometimes the AUDEL books are good but peruse to
    be sure they cover what you want.  I could go on for quite a
    while but I think you get the idea.

	If this comes across as a FLAME I apologize but I am very
    sensitive to planning a medium to large project.  And all sources
    of IDEAS as well as techniques/how to are valuable.

	Bottom line scan what you intend to purchase do not buy because
    the cover says "Everything you wanted to know about Plumbing but
    were afraid to ask".  Sympathy starts here -->  There is no book
    ever written or any one person who understands all plumbing, ask
    any old house owner :) (we are a select group of masochists and
    you hit the nail on the head plumbing is by far the worst.)

	Best of luck with your bathroom, I will be following your progress
    carefully as my wife is starting to hint about redoing the bathroom,
    (Aaaaaaaargh) I have just about finished the kitchen from going back 
    to the studs.

	Best of luck 				- Randy

Re: .7

   >> (we are a select group of masochists and
   >> you hit the nail on the head plumbing is by far the worst.)


  Interesting comment.  I agree with the first part but not the second (well
 not totally).  Everything I have done to my house so far has been for the 
 first time.  I'm relatively new to home ownership and find that every project
 has it's own challenge to it.  I, myself, find that the greatest obstacle to 
 overcome is the motivation to attempt something for the first time.  Plumbing
 was the perfect example in my case.  I was replacing the walls around the tub
 to put in a tub surround and was debating whether or not to replace the 
 plumbing at the same time.  This consisted of separate Hot/Cold faucets for 
 the shower and tub and were not even level (both sets were slightly diagonal).
 I came real close to saying the heck with it but somehow became determined
 not to let this defeat me.  I opted to go the CPVC route, bought an anti-
 scalding valve, pipes, fittings etc. at Spag's and went at it.  There were a
 total of 28 connections and *NO* leaks.  I realize that this stuff is a lot 
 easier to use than copper (and I didn't need to have a fire extinguisher
 handy :^) ) but it was still a great confidence builder.  The rest of the
 bathroom is not yet finished because I want to make my own vanity and 
 matchstick wainscoting for the walls but that is another story.

  I also agree with your comment about DIY books.  I have not bought any yet
 because I have not seen one that looked like it would provide enough useful
 info that can be applied to my projects but do appear to be great for ideas. 
 Besides,  who needs books when we have access to this file with its seemingly 
 unlimited supply of resources? No smiley faces here, there's more truth than
 humor in the statement.
 
-Jim

Re: .8

   >> (we are a select group of masochists and
   >> you hit the nail on the head plumbing is by far the worst.)

	Maybe I'm the only masochist :).  I should probably further state
	that I am old home owner and a purist;  though I agree plastic is
	easier to work with I don't believe in using it for supply lines
	(In some areas it's illegal or at least was) Note that I will 
	however use it for drain pipes.  Cast iron can be a bi*%# and I
	don't drink that water anyways :).  Seriously though my inference
	really applies to old houses.  I was merely replacing a supply
	line to a bathroom sink and when I tightened the compression nut
	the pipe behind me broke!  So much for those 10 minute jobs in an
	old house on a Sunday afternoon.

	Lessons to be learned:

	In an old house never plan less than 2 hours for a 10 minute job
	on Sunday and

	Plumbing is always a challenge, especially in an old house...
	
	By the way I do some of my own plumbing, not on Sundays though
	(anymore at least!)

	later

    I'd agree with .9, plumbing is really bad when you're replacing
    (or fixing) old stuff - something always breaks.  Putting in new
    work is not all that bad...usually!

    
    
    re .7  -  no flame taken.. I understand it's your opinion and I'm
    willing to respect that.  Also the part where you stated that the
    sunset books were good for ideas.. I will agree with you on that.
    I think you 'fitted the right pipe' with the few lines of "sympathy",
    I too wish there was a COMPLETE book for <least favorite chore>....
    wanna get together and start writing..?    Haven't seen the audel
    line.. have ~20 years of popular science/mechanics at mom and pops..
    unless they've gotten to the dump by now.   An accomplished DYIer..
    well.. I have a background of: water heater, shed, add_a_room_in_
    basement from start to finish (including wiring & heat), and my
    parents are making a 100 yr old 10 rm house into a 14 rm house for
    15 or so years...			don't mean to be tooting my
    own horn, but, is there a title of "Intermediate Amature"??? (my
    arm is hurting trying to pat myself on the back :-) ). at < 26 yrs
    old.. I'm doing O.K.
    
    re: plumming (8 & 9 I believe)..  we did replace the drain with
    the pvc stuff.. the supply lines are still copper/brass.. the $$$
    to re-do the entire plumming would have meant a 2nd mtg.  We are
    replacing ALL the fixtures however.
    
    O.K... now that I've tried to clear up the specific questions/comments
    (no flames or misunderstandings I hope).. I'll keep everyone up
    to date...  at this point the 6 sides are covered and most of the
    taping/some of the spackling has been done. The water is on while
    we're working only and the electricity (after 4 fuses) is working
    and on constantly (again). The walls behind the tub are being preped
    (smoothed out) for the tile (sat ??), and I'm getting the primer for 
    the walls on friday.   The vanity had to be drilled for  a pipe and 
    we're putting a back on it... 2 of the drawers have to be 'altered' to
    adjust for the drains on the sink (the drains are off 1 1/2 inches
    from standard...this is probably why the double_sink_vanity_top
    was a 'left-over')  
    
    some of you might think this is going slower_than_expected.. well
    your right. The reason for this is that both my brother and I work
    2 jobs and during the week, if one of us gets 6 hrs work done (on
    the bath) ... it's a great week.

    
    forgot to ask...
    
    any suggestions/information on a GOOD paint for the bathroom that
    is available in many colors ???   where to get it (nashua area..???)
    
    is it worth removing the hub on the soil pipe to put down the new
    sub floor ???  is it a difficult job ??  special tools/equip needed??
    OR.. can/should we just cut the plywood reeaaallly close and then
    seal up the joint (see below )
    
    
    
    			------------------------------------|
    			   \	piece of plywood	    | put this side in
 	we were thinking   /		 o o o		    |
 of this, then putting	  /______cut____o     o____cut______|
 a caulking along the	 /		o     o 	    | then this side
 cut to seal it		\	plywwod	 o o o  	    |
    					   ^--- soil pipe hub
			o     o 	    |
   		

    RE: .12
    
    You don't have to remove the closet flange before putting the new
    sub-floor down.  I did just as you show before I put down my tile.
    I don't even think you need any filler.  I was told you should leave
    1/8" inch gap between pieces of plywood for expansion/contraction.
    Plan out the sub-floor carefully so that you don't have too many
    seams meeting in one place.  I guess this applies only if you ripped
    out the old sub-floor first...

You can usually raise the toilet a little bit without moving the flange and 
still get a good seal, but about �" is the max.  Besides, if you try to raise 
it more than that, the bolts in the flange will probably be too short.

Paul

RE: .11 
    
    Glad no flame was taken.. 

    If I come across a good book on Plumbing (Can you say fat chance?)
    I will post it.

    > title of "Intermediate Amature"??? 

    Sure why not, I'd hate to be called an Expert (i.e. Someone who knows
    everything about nothing or Jack of all trades master of none)

RE: .12

	I have done a lot of painting with Glidden paints and been very
	satisfied.  Available at Aubuchon Hardware and would you believe
	it K-Mart.  Aubuchon also sells their own brand of ceiling paint
	which I believe might be Glidden for about 3.99 on sale which 
	covers pretty well with one coat though for a bathroom I'd 
	recommend two.  Also you should use a fungicide additive available
	at most good paint stores (not available at Aubuchons) comes in
	a 1 or 1 1/2 oz bottle for a gallon of paint.

	Good luck and keep us posted, my wife is thinking about redoing
	our bathroom in the near future.

	(Do I dare call myself an experienced amateur? I guess working on
	 an old house would qualify me :-})

	- Randy

    
    
    We finally got to the tiling... looks great! and was wicked simple. With
    the plywood on the walls around the shower, we anticipated problems of
    the tile cement not sticking... not so.  did the grout in about 2 hrs
    (2 people).. can't wait to get it wet. (as soon as the shower doors
    are on ).
    
    did get a paint additive.. called "controls mildue".. appropriate
    name anyways.. one 3oz tube does one gallon of paint. Since I had
    half a gallon of ceiling paint already, I added about 1/3 of the
    tube to that and the rest to the full gallon of wall paint. The
    ceiling has been done (2 coats), and the walls have the first coat
    on..  still have to do a second coat on the walls, then put the
    vanity in (after a few 'minor' adjustments due to the factory second
    sinks ), the mirror, the vanity lighting the toilet and the door..
    
    gee.. *maybe* we'll be done this weekend...  (I hope, I hope)

    
    well... I see it's been a while since an update..  must be time
    to catch up..
    
    Wanted to finish the bathroom the weekend in Aug ( see last reply)...
    well I 'd still like to finish 'this weekend' but seems things have
    a way of deturing me from doing so...     
    
    got the vanity cabinate in place... all screwed into the wall, leveled,
    all that sort of stuff...  went to put the vanity top (sinks) on..
    low and behold the top had to be ground down on the backside to
    be more flush with the wall.... we'd push on one end and the opposite
    end would come about a half inch away from the wall. We solved this
    problem by purchasing a metal cutting blade for my circular saw
    and propping the sink top on 2 saw horses, then cut the back of
    the sinks (the splash guard) with the saw. We had to make about
    3 or 4 passes (always just 'shaving' the edge) to finally get it
    to where it was 'close enough'.  WE then applied the adhesive to
    the back of the splash guard (where we had just cut) and applied
    caulking to the bottom where the sinks would connect with the vanity
    .. waited a couple days and attached the faucets and drains.  I
    finally found someone that had a chrome "J" channel to hang the
    mirror.... everyone kept pushing the little glass things that screw
    into the wall ( they would be spaced unevenly if they to be put
    into the studs / wouldn't hold unless they were in the studs).
    Hooked up the lights over the mirror only to discover that we had
    a problem with the ground connection at the switch.  The toilet
    was a breeze... except for the rubber ring between the tank and
    the bowl... we bought the wrong one the first time.   
    
    well, we're about all done... gee, it only took us 3 months, and
    we now should travel out of the bathroom and start redoing the hall
    into the kitchen... around the corner into the living room........
    
    I'm sure you all can relate to that..
    
    all in all... it was a pain in the *ss, but looking at it now, it
    was worth........  most of it!      Advice...:  Plan ahead about
    2 or 3 months.. order the materials in advance... plan more time
    than you might originally think.
    
    Happy home-owning.... 
    
    Keith
    

	Hi Keith -

>    I'm sure you all can relate to that..

	You bet ;-)    

>    all in all... it was a pain in the *ss, but looking at it now, it
>    was worth........  most of it!      Advice...:  Plan ahead about
>    2 or 3 months.. order the materials in advance... plan more time
>    than you might originally think.
    
	Can't second this enough and even then things will go wrong :-}

	My problem has always been I think I can do this much in  this
	much time, and forget to add in things like vacation, other
	obligations and the honeydew list.  So I generally come in at
	about 3 or maybe even 4 times my estimate.  We even did a gantt
	chart last time!  That took a week in itself ;-)

	I've done a kitchen, if I ever (and my wife assures me I will :-)
	do a bathroom it will be a second bath, so we won't be without 
	longer than my plan says.

	Glad to hear you made it to Miller time!  Seriously you ought to
	put your feet up for a week or two at least before you start in
	on the next room.  And thanks for sharing your experience here
	it's one of the niceties of HOME_WORK you know you're not alone.

					- Randy

    	With the success of note 517 'Questions on Redoing my Kitchen'
    I've decided to get you collective advice once again.  My fall project
    is adding a second story full bath in a large bedroom.
    	The design is complete and I've pulled the permits.  This Saturday
    is 'Plaster Disaster Day'.  I've rented a pickup size dump truck for
    $75 and have started building a junk chute.  The idea is to stick
    one end of the chute in the window and the other end in the truck.
    This way the lifting and carrying will be minimized.  The chute is
    24' long, 2' wide and made of 2x6x14' with 1" plywood as the base.  
    I've braced the top and bottom sides with 2x4's every three feet.  
    I think it is strong enough, but the problem will be moving it in
    place.  It is very heavy and awkward.  Does anyone have any helpful
    hints?  Is the design strong enough?  I've thought about tying ropes 
    the top of the chute to help lower it in place.
    	If anyone needs a junk chute mine can be had for the cost of
    the wood after this Saturday.  Any ideas or words of warning about
    the use of chutes would be welcome.
    	I'll keep posting my questions as the job progresses
    
    					Thanks 
    					=Ralph=
    

    I am planning on doing extensive work on a bathroom in my house.
    I am going to start at the top and work my way down....which brings
    me to my question.
    
    	Are there any extra precautions during preparation or during
    paint selection to make up for the fact that the bathroom is small
    and gets extremely steamy during showers.  I don't want to have
    my whole cieling peel off after the first shower.  Currently the
    cieling has a fair amount of mold (or whatever the black stuff is
    which accumulates in the corners of bathroom cielings) on it also.
    
    	Should I use any extra weapons on the cieling before I paint?
    
    	Should I use any particular kind of paint to do this?
    
    		Ben

    I would say get an exhaust fan installed to eliminate the steam.
    
    
    Jim

    Eliminate the mildew before any painting.
    I think that ammonia works for this, but perhaps someone else
    knows better than I.
    
    Also recommend the exhaust fan. That did the trick in my bathroom
    make-over.                                    
    
    Dave

    I painted a small bathroom a few years ago and thought that oil
    base paint should be used because of the steam.  Three weeks after
    painting, I could wipe the paint off with a dry rag.  So, I removed
    the oil base paint and used latex paint.  It was dry before I had
    the brushes cleaned and never had a problem.  I think that part
    of the problem was that the bathroom had latex paint already and
    you can not put oil base paint on top of latex.
    
    Hope this helps a little.
    
    Tom
    

    Use bleach to kill mold before you paint. A 50/50, water & bleach,
    solution will kill the mold.
    

    I have the same situation in my bathroom... it's been a year since
    it's been done, and no problems so far-
    
    i used a solution of bleach, TSP and water to clean off the mildew
    (and lots of elbow grease). after that i used exterior latex primer
    as a first coat, then used latex ceiling paint over that.  
    
    
    i've also heard that a coat of shellac will keep the moisture from
    penetrating, and provide a satisfactory base for your finish coat.
    
    
    |Ske
    

    I had a similar problem and did every thing mentioned so far in
    this topic.  My problem was that the mold kept on returning no matter how
    many times I cleaned it.  A carpenter doing work on my house suggested
    that I use a product called "KILZ" (sp) its a stain killer which is a 
    white tinted shellac.  You use this first and then paint with latex.
    This seemed to do the trick, it's been about 9 months since this last 
    effort with no sign of the mold so far.

    >  I think it is strong enough, but the problem will be moving it in
    >  place.  It is very heavy and awkward.  
    
    > Does anyone have any helpful hints?  Is the design strong enough?      
                            --------------------     			
    Ralph, let your fingers do the walking....in the yellow pages.
    
    Hows about renting a crane?	    
    
    MArk

    This is a little off the subject. But it relates to bath-room ceiling.
    I painted the bath-room ceiling 3 1/2 yrs ago with latex. I was
    great and had no problem until last year. A small crack on the ceiling
    was developed ( cause by heavy steam when taking shower and no exhaust
    fan in the bath ). I didn't pay attention to it. Now the crack grew
    and about a 4 inch diameter of the ceiling felt. I don't know what
    the ceiling material is made of. It is about 1/8 inch thick with
    smooth surface. Is it some kind of sheet-rock, or plaster ? What
    can I do to repair/patch it ? The area that the ceiling felt off
    still has a layer of rough backing ( grey color ) that is not loose.
    I need to repair this before the winter ( that's the time the bath
    room is filled with steam ).
    
    I know, the best think is to put an exhaust fan, but that will be
    after the ceiling is fixed.
    
     

    Depending where the 4" dia. spot is why not mount the fan in that
    spot. That will cure the steam and crack problem at the same time.
    
    

  Is there some reason for not parking the truck directly under the window
  and using gravity instead of your chute?  Neither plaster nor plywood
  is very slippery -- seems to me there's a good chance that you might
  find yourself spending mucho time clearing the chute of debris...

  Apart from that, make sure that everyone on the job has safety glasses
  and a dust mask.  On the last demo job I did, someone brought a couple
  of heavy-duty construction fans and they worked great (being able to see
  and breathe helps a lot on this sort of job).  So you might try renting
  one or two of those -- or just using a few portable fans.

  JP

    RE .7  
    	I WOULD GET SOME PATCHING PLASTER AT ANY HOME CENTER, MIX UP
    A BATCH, AND USE IT TO FILL THE HOLE IN YOUR CIELING.  IT COMES
    WITH DIRECTIONS ON THE PACKAGE.  IF YOU DON'T END UP WITH A NICE
    SMOOTH PATCH, YOU CAN PATCH IT FURTHER WITH SOME KIND OF SPACKLE
    OR WALLBOARD COMPOUND, SAND IT DOWN, PRIME IT AND PAINT IT.  PIECE
    OF CAKE, EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT SANDING THAT STUFF OVER YOUR HEAD
    IS A LITTLE MESSY.
    
    RE .1-.6
    	THANKS FOR THE SUGGESTIONS FOLKS.  MY PLAN WILL BE TO ELIMINATE
    THE MILDEW WITH BLEACH, SAND/SCRAPE OFF AS MUCH OLD PAINT AS I CAN
    (MOST OF IT HAS FALLEN OFF), AND THEN APPLY A FIRST COAT OF KILZ.
     WHAT DO YOU KNOW, I HAVE A GALLON OF IT IN THE BASEMENT ALREADY!
     THEN I WILL APPLY A FINISH COAT OF CIELING PAINT.  I THINK I HAVE
    BEEN USING A SEARS CIELING PAINT IN THE REST OF MY HOUSE.
         
    		BEN

    I thought I saw in another note in this conference about mildew
    resistant paints.  If someone out there knows which note please
    clue us in.
    
    All seriousness aside, why not just paint your ceiling with bottom
    paint for boats or better yet just paint it black! ;-)

    	Just a note before buying a ceiling fan. I had a electrician
    install one when we were building down the cape. What a surprise
    when I went down and used the bathroom. The fan was so loud you
    couldn't hear yourself think. Great if you don't want to hear
    anything else that going on.
    
                                    Rick L.
     

    	Well, after a dusty weekend, I've got the room down to the studs
    and all the dust out.  My 26' chute turned out to be too heavy to
    swing in place so some early morning changes were necessary.  I
    had a 14' section sticking out of a window and resting on the roof
    below.  The chute extended out past the roof by about 4'.  I then
    put a piece of plywood in the truck and leaned it against the house.
    The sliding down the chute, off the end, then crashing into the
    plywood before it hit the truck.  
    	I managed to do a very clean job.  I sealed the one door from
    the room to the house with plastic on both sides.  I put a big fan
    in one window and had it running all weekend.  I also remembered
    to close all the other windows in the house.  I spent $15 and bought
    myself a really nice dust mask.  My wife and dad were working below
    in the truck evening out the load.  The truck I used was a Ford
    F250 with a dump bed.  It was real nice after loading up the truck
    just to flip a switch a the dump and watch all the stuff pour out.
    Total cost for the truck from Sears/Budget was $75/day, $15 insurance,
    and 26� mile.  It is the ONLY way to go.  I agree that cleaning
    out a room is a lousy job, but an average size room can be done
    in one day.  I would not sink lots of money in a renovation project
    and leave the old walls up.
    	Now for some more interesting questions.  I have to use base
    board heat for the bathroom.  There is no way that I can get FHA
    ductwork to the room.  What size base board heater is needed for
    a well insulated 5'x7' room with an 8' ceiling.  I assume that it
    will be 220 V and will require GFI protection.
    	Does anyone have experience with the fiberglass shower bases?
    Are they easy to install and do they hold up well?  I'm planning
    on using a 36" square base and tile the walls of the shower.  It
    seems a lot easier than making a copper pan and mudding in the shower
    floor.  They cost around $250-300.
    	The most amazing thing so far is that I've had 4 plumbers return
    my calls and agree to quote.  Things must be slowing down.
    	Next weekend will be spent installing windows and insulating.
    			
    				=Ralph=

    Re:  Baseboard heater.   You see everything from 8-14W/sq foot.
    If you use 10W as an average, then you need 350W.  In other words,
    not much (a 2' standard baseboard heater is 500W).
    
    The room is so small, electric heat is entirely practical.
    
    GFI protection is NOT required for electric baseboard heat in bathrooms.

    	I have some more questions about base board heat and Mass 
    Electrical Code.  First if my heater has to be only 1000 watts do
    I still need to put it on a 220V circuit?  Does the circuit have
    to be dedicated to only the base board heater.  I'd hate to waste
    two slots for a 1000 W heater.
    	Second, I'd like to solicit opinions on different brands of
    roof windows.  There is plenty info in the file on installation
    but is one brand that much different than another?  The brands under
    consideration are: Velux, Anderson, Roto, and Bleffa (sp?).

    1) Most baseboard heaters are 220V just to keep things simple for
    mixing/matching.  You can get wall mount heaters (with fan included)
    for 110V, but they're much more expensive.

    2) There are no particular NEC special rules about dedicated circuits;
    you can put more than one heater on a circuit, and you can share
    a circuit between a heater and another 220v appliance (like an air
    conditioner).   Of course I'm assuming that all the proper wire
    sizing and amperage constraints have been observed.   Do not, however,
    share a dryer or range circuit with a heater (dryer and stove
    manufacturers assume they have the whole line capacity available).

    3) You also need an electric heat thermostat ($18.95 at SL, a 4'
    1000W baseboard heater is about $40 at Sears.  Above are the best
    prices I've found.
    
    Jim (just finished a whole house elec heat job)
    
    ps The roof window questions have been asked many times elsewhere.
       See 1111.

Yeah, whether a heater is 110V or 220V is up to the manufacturer, not 
(directly) dictated by Code.  As Jim notes in .7, 110V heaters tend to be 
special-purpose and more expensive, but I've seen cheapos too.

Just to complete Jim's list of what you can and can't do with 220V
circuits:  you can't use one hot leg along with a neutral to make 110V.  A 
220V circuit is only used for 220V loads.  An exception is a 220V appliance 
like a stove that has 110V clocks and lights installed; this appliance can 
derive 110V internally from the 220V circuit, but you're not supposed to do
so in your house wiring.

    There is a little about this in note 1592 but not enough for me
    to go on. We just moved into a newly constructed house and I want
    to repaint our bath a different color. There is an exhaust fan in
    the bath so the majority of the steam is taken care of. The problem/
    question is that we have a shower stall that doesn't go to the ceiling,
    leaving the wall exposed. It does get sprayed a little by the shower,
    not directly though (what rebounds off your head). What is the correct
    paint to use on the walls; oil-based, latex, etc. Currently there
    is a flat latex on it. In our old townhouse we had just flat latex
    and after just 2 1/2 years the paint was cracking and mildewing.
    This bath was painted by a contractor after wallpaper removal and
    really have no idea if he used quality paint or not, or if he got
    all of the wallpaper paste off the walls. Is there a primer that
    should be used to combat cracking and molding? Or will just a good
    paint prevent that??
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    	Andrea 

    Re: .8:   There may be a matter of semantics here, but the code
    (and the interpretation books) describe a circuit which is exactly
    that:   You take a 220V circuit and run two 110V circuits from it,
    using a common neutral.   It's called a "three wire circuit" or
    something like that.   I have two of them in my house...

You are both right.

1. It's perfectly possible to take two 110V legs off a standard 220V LINE.

BUT

2. You CANNOT take a 220 V CIRCUIT (as in, the output from a 220V circuit
breaker) and make two 110V anythings out of it and conform to any codes
I've ever seen UNLESS you add a new circuit breaker box at the end of the
220V line and put two 110V breakers into it. The underlying reason is that
you would end up loading the two legs of the 220V line unevenly - which
isn't what the breakers are intended for and hence may not provide the proper
level of protection. Even though the 220V breakers are generally just two
single pole (110V) breakers. 220V lines are intended to drive loads that
utilize 220V.

Dennis

    
    I recently refinished my bathroom with a new tub enclosure and paint.
    The owner of the local paint store recommended a flat latex paint
    for the walls. There was previously a gloss finish which was not
    too appealing. After 9 months the lat latex is starting to turn moldy
    behind the toliet, and shows dirt from little folks hands very well.
    Also splash from the sink seems to soak into the sheetrock.
       
    Needless to say I'm not to pleased with the results. I'm consdering
    repainting with a semi-gloss or gloss to eliminate the problem.
    

RE:1592.9 

	Hi Ben-

>    	THANKS FOR THE SUGGESTIONS FOLKS.  MY PLAN WILL BE TO ELIMINATE
>    THE MILDEW WITH BLEACH, SAND/SCRAPE OFF AS MUCH OLD PAINT AS I CAN
>    (MOST OF IT HAS FALLEN OFF), AND THEN APPLY A FIRST COAT OF KILZ.
>     WHAT DO YOU KNOW, I HAVE A GALLON OF IT IN THE BASEMENT ALREADY!
>     THEN I WILL APPLY A FINISH COAT OF CIELING PAINT.  I THINK I HAVE
>    BEEN USING A SEARS CIELING PAINT IN THE REST OF MY HOUSE.
         
	I hope I'm not too late, in regards to the KILZ or BIN (pigmented
	shellac).  For what these were intended it's great stuff, covering
	up a stain or a knot that bleeds thru.  It was never intended as
	a primer.  My Mother-in-law prepared the whole ceiling with BIN
	and then painted in their house, within two weeks the paint was peeling
	everywhere! ( My brother-in-law is a heavy showerer)  they have a
	fan but it doesn't work all that well.

	Bottom line, KILZ/BIN is not a primer don't paint your whole ceiling
	with it.  *DO* install a ceiling fan preferably in the shower enclosure
	to remove the steam at its source.  Once installed use it, it only
	works when you do :-) (a problem in my house).

	Something which hasn't been mentioned here as yet is the use of a
	mildewcide, a paint additive.  This stuff comes in a small bottle
	about 1 1/2 oz. if I remember correctly and is available at any good
	paint and wallpaper store.

						Good Luck Randy

    
    We had the same problem with our bathroom. Instead of going to a
    gloss or semigloss, we used a flat oilbase. Oilbase should be used
    in rooms with a lot of moisture (bathroom, kitchen). The mildew
    still appears, but we can wipe it off. 
    
    Mike

    SommerVille Lumber has the Honey Well wall mount electric heat
    thermostats for about $13 dollars. It's a nice clean looking unit and
    works better than other units that I've had. I'm not sure if this is
    regular or sale price. 
    
    Ralph, Have you considered one of the combination Fan/Light/Heater
    units that go in the ceiling. It eliminates the baseboard from the
    wall and could help simplify the wiring.
    
    Charly

    If memory serves me, BIN claims to be a "vapor barrier".  Could
    this property cause problems in high moisture areas, such as bathrooms?
    If it's not a primer, you'd have to have a *LOT* of spots to use
    the gallon cans they sell it in! ;^)  I was planning on using BIN
    to prime my outside walls.  Anybody ever try this?  I don't anticipate
    problems because I don't have high moisture where I'll be applying
    it.
    
    Phil

    re: .11
    	When I added a bathroom in a rental unit, I installed baseboard
    electric intended solely to keep the plumbing from freezing, and
    then the ceiling light/exhaust/heat unit.  Tenants love it.  Its
    cheaper and very comfortable.

	I too am doing a new bath, and I'm using a 2 Ft electric
	heater in the bath, another 2 Ftr in the hall (thermostat 
	for BOTH located in the hall).  For the light, I'm using 
	a light/fan/heater/nightlight unit that my dad got...  

	Nitelight is good for visiting friends and little kids...

	The ONLY drawback so far... Four switches 
					(1-light, 1-fan, 1-heater, 1-Nlight)
				    and a switch outside the door 
				    for the lights over the sink...

    
    	The reason for using a gloss paint in the bathroom is so that
    water splashed on the walls is not visible and mold does not form
    as easy as it does on a flat painted wall.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    	
    	I am going to put a Sun Lamp heater light in the ceiling on
    a timer.  They are great when you get out of the shower.  The baseboard
    heater was to heat the room, with the sun lamp to heat the people.
    I'll take a look at the ceiling mounted heater fans.  Are they on
    a thermostat, or just an on off control?
    	My regular plumber came by and gave a quote of $700 labor plus
    $100 in piping parts.  He gets $350 per day for him and his brother.
    They figure it'll take a day to rough things in and another day
    for the final hookups.  He is a little higher than the other quotes
    but he has done good work for me before.
    	This weekend will be spent insulation, installing two anderson
    windows and sorting out old knob and tube wiring.
    
    					Thanks
    					Ralph

    
    
    re .12
    
            I know someone who used shellac as a primer in his bath...
    no problems since it was done... don't know what type of paint he
    used over it, though
    
    
    re .13
    
    	   I just painted my place this summer, and used BIN as a
    spot primer, solid oil-base stain over it... no problems so far,
    but it's only been about two months
    
    
    Steve-

re .9, .10 re .8, 220V lines vs. circuits:  Right, thanks for the clarification.


re .14, combination light/nightlight/fan/heater/pencilsharpener/tablesaw:

I wanted one with a thermostat for the heater, and a timer for the fan.  
Couldn't find one; wound up using discrete appliances.

Without the thermostat, the heater is only for creature comfort heating, and 
you still need a baseboard or equivalent to keep the pipes from freezing.

I also couldn't find one that would look good in my Victorian house; they
all look like spaceship fittings.


Oh, yes, re knob and tube:  the trick is that they didn't run the common 
side of the circuit anywhere that they didn't strictly have to.  And when 
they did need a common, there was no concept of using the right common for 
the circuit; any old common would do.

    
    I also recommend the paint additive that prevents mildew...hope
    there's nothing too toxic in it though.  We haven't seen any 
    black on the ceiling in over a year.
    
    I installed a fan/heat lamp in the bathroom.  It seems that the
    heat lamp does a good job of drying up the bathroom once you're
    done in there.  We just leave it on for a while after showering
    until the ceiling is dry.  
    
    Also if you do get a ceiling fan, make sure you get one that
    is 70 CFM.  They sell some that are less (50 CFM) powerful.
    
    Doug
    

   
      During the winter I would get an ice buildup on the roof and
     sometimes down the side of the house. It wasn't until after I put on an 
    addition that I noticed the exhaust fan outlet was pointing
     toward the lower edge of the roof in the attic. This caused the
    snow buildup to melt. So I added a vent tube to the outside. I hope
    this will end the ice problem.
    
    This is an attic vented type with no instructions to tell you to
    vent it outside.
    
    Jim

    re: .15
    	How difficult to install a fan/heat lamp in the bathroom ? how
    and where do you vent the air out ? Do you need to make a large
    hole on the outside wall for venting ? Do you need to make a new
    electrical outlet for it, including running wire from the fuse box
    to the outlet ? I'm not sure if I can handle all these.
    

    	The project is progressing on schedule.  This weekend I installed
    a ROTO roof window, and other than looking like a tar and feather
    victim, things went fine.  I was a bit apprehensive about cutting
    a hole in my roof.  This combined with my *love* of heights and
    a 45� pitch made it an interesting day.  The first step was to build
    the header box.  I used double 2x6's all around nailed together with
    20 penny nails.  I cut most of the hole from the inside, going out
    for the final cut.  I then stripped a row of shingles all the way
    around.  I liked the ROTO window, but was not impressed with the
    brackets or screws that they supplied.  I bought larger brackets
    and used 6 of them rather than 4.  Once the window was in place
    (without the glass) I sat on the frame and began roofing.  I was
    very careful to overlap properly and used copious amounts of roofing
    tar.  It took a total of 8 hours to do the project, with 2.5 hours
    to flashing and shingling the roof.  I'm waiting for some rain before
    I declare the project a success.
    	Thank goodness for this file.  The instructions with the ROTO
    window were terrible.  The window was fine (and $90 cheaper than
    VELUX) but get another set of instructions.  
    	Now the room is tight to the weather with two new Anderson windows
    and a ROTO roof window.  With the insulation in place, it will be
    a warm room to work in.
    	Next I've got to cut in the door.  It will be an odd shaped
    door, because I've got to cut the top corner off to fit with the
    sloped wall.  Does anyone know a place around Boston that I can
    have a custom door made?  I need an odd shaped four panel door to
    match the rest of the rooms.
    
    					=Ralph=         
    

    There's paint additives available at any paint store that prevent
    the mildew problem. Cost ~.50 cents/ treats a gallon of paint.

If you're willing to go to a bit more effort, buy a piece of formica
of a suitable color and glue it to the exposed walls. Then caulk the
seams with silicone caulk. Holds up a whole lot better than paint.

    	The project is really taking off.  I've got the dividing wall
    up, and a section of the floor removed for the plumber.  I've wimped
    out and decided to hire an electrician to do the wiring.  I've got
    a rats nest of old knob and tube wiring and it has intimidated me.
    	I found the exact door I wanted from the dependable BROSCO
    catalogue.   It is a four panel, reverse christian door that is
    24" wide.  The lead time for the vanity tops and shower base is
    *5* weeks so I've got to order now.  I'm off to Penny Pinchers to
    find two vanities
    	I sometime wish I was a plumber.  I was quoted one day labor
    for a plumber and an assistance to rough in all the pipes.  The
    cost for their service was $350.  Yes, I've had other quotes.
    	             
    					=Ralph=
    
    	(hoping to flush on New Years Day)

    
    	I had the electrician come by and give me a quote to add three
    circuits and resupply the old knob and tube wiring.  He gave me
    a quote of $750!  This is the incentive that I've been needing to
    polish up my wiring skills.
    	I've read many of the notes about wiring and still have one
    question.  I know that all junction boxes must be accessible.
    Is it OK to put junction boxes in the attic rather than in the ceiling?
    It is easy for me to get at them in the attic, I just want to keep
    the inspector happy.
    
    					=Ralph=
    
    
    	(
    

Re: .18
    >>  Is it OK to put junction boxes in the attic rather than in the ceiling?
    >>  It is easy for me to get at them in the attic, I just want to keep
    >>  the inspector happy.

      By attic, do you mean: between the joists just above the
    ceiling/plaster or do you mean in the rafters?  I just installed
    two junction boxes between the joists to rewire a couple of fixtures
    and remove splices in the wire that were NOT in junction boxes.
    I don't know about wiring in the rafters but if you follow
    the code I don't see where there would be a problem.  If in doubt,
    talk to the inspector first.  In fact, I would say talk to the
    inspector first anyway so he knows exactly what you want to do thereby
    avoiding a problem when he shows up. I also strongly recommend the
    book 'Wiring Simplified' for a guideline of the code put in layman's
    terms.
    
    -Jim
    

I have a similar question to that posed in the previous reply. I've 
been looking at exhaust fans, fan/light, and fan/light/heater combos. 

From a previous reply I know I would want a fan with >50cfm. Question, 
and perhaps it's obvious but I'm often accused of overlooking that: 
Where and how do you vent these things. Directly into the attic? 

while I'm at it, any recommendations on brand names?

Thanks,
Chuck

    I installed  the NUTONE 200cfm ceiling unit. It's as quiet as a typical 70
    cfm unit, and sucks the mositure immediately out of my 130 sq ft
    bathroom. It requires 10� x 3 inch duct work (not 3" round as with
    most 70 cfm units). You've got to vent it to the outside, either
    through the roof or a wall cap. The baffle is molded white plastic.
    These units have a lifetime guarantee.
    
        
    I paid about $100 for it at Maynard Supply. It has totally solved
    all my moisture related problems (peeling ceiling, mold, steamy mirrors,
    etc.) They also have a 300cfm unit, but I believe it's not as quiet
    (and probably overkill for most bathrooms).
    
    

Re: .18
    
�  Where and how do you vent these things. Directly into the attic? 
    
    No!  If you do that, you'll only be moving the moisure problem from
    the bathroom to the attic.  What's going to happen as the warm,
    moist air from the bathroom hits the cold air in the attic is instant
    condensation.  You soon discover you now have major moisure damage
    in the attic.
    
    There was a previous note a while ago about where to vent these
    things.  As I remember, the general agreement was to place the vent
    output in the soffet, keeping the vent pipe as short as possible
    and as horizontal as possible.  A vertical run going up will tend
    to act as a chimney, driving warm air out of the house even when
    the fan is not running.  A vertical run going down will cause any
    condensation in the pipe to either collect or drip out at the low
    point.  Best bet is a short, horizontal run along the attic floor
    and over to the soffet.
    
    Jim

>�  Where and how do you vent these things. Directly into the attic? 
>    
>    No!  If you do that, you'll only be moving the moisure problem from
>    the bathroom to the attic.  What's going to happen as the warm,
>    moist air from the bathroom hits the cold air in the attic is instant
>    condensation.  You soon discover you now have major moisure damage
>    in the attic.
>    
Funny - both of mine run into the attic - am I in trouble?

    	I have a question about using metal conduit in home wiring.
    I'm using conduit because the only way I've got to run wire to the
    second floor is through a 3/4" conduit section.  Last night I looked
    at the conduit that my electrician ran last year.  In it he ran
    12 gauge pairs for each circuit but no ground.  It looks like the
    metal conduit is being used as the ground.  Is this correct,  when
    using metal conduit do you use the conduit as the ground wire?

    The metal conduit is the ground (by code that is).  I think it is
    against the code to run a bare copper wire inside conduit.  In special
    cases, seperate ground wires are used inside conduit.  They have
    to be INSULATED and CLEARLY marked with GREEN (either the insulation
    is green or green tape is used). 

    mac

    re: -.1--better check before your attic gets too cold to work in.
        ...And watch out for insullation dust.
     
    I just replaced my old fan with a Nutone and it works great!  If
    possible, however, try to have it on a seperate switch, as you'll
    probably only need it for the 3 'S'es.  Ours isn't and it won't
    be until we re-do the bathroom.
         
    							Don

    There are several notes in here dealing with bathrooms and ventilation.
    Do a DIR/KEY=BATHROOM and/or DIR/KEY=VENTILATION, and you'll find
    pointers to them.  You might want to start with the following:  13.2,
    13.7, 13.3, 587.*, and 1039.4 (a good one).

    Jim

    	The work has slowed down since I cut up a finger on a table
    saw during cabinet making class.  Everything is fine but a
    wobbling dado blade can really chew things up.  Since I can't
    swing a hammer I'm doing all of the wiring.
    	I've got all 4 circuits run up to the bathroom/bedroom.  I ran
    4 black and white pairs of 12 gauge wire through 3/4" conduit. 
    The toughest part is the bending but it only cost me a $6 10' section
    to learn.  Snaking all the wire pairs through was not too bad. 
    All in all it is a compact way to run many circuits to the same
    area.  The costs worked out to about 27� per foot per circuit.  If 
    anyone needs to borrow a conduit bender, drop me a line.
    	My question of the day involves wiring a 220V 20 AMP electric
    baseboard heater.  I understand how to wire the breaker, I'm just
    confused over wire color and code.  I was planning to use one white
    and black pair as the hot wires to the circuit.  However the wiring
    book I have said I should use a black and a red pair.  Can I use
    a black and white pair and still meet the code?  Can I wrap red
    tape around the white hot wire in the junction boxes?  Am I being
    silly and worrying about the wiring inspector too much :^).  The
    thought of snaking another red wire through the conduit does not
    excite me.

I know it's OK to use black and white and tape the ends of the white if
you're using Romex.  I don't remember different rules for conduit, but
since I wasn't using conduit, that may not mean much. 

I've got some "240 VOLTS" stickers.  They're maybe 2"x4", a little too big
to wrap around cables or wires but just right for work box covers.  Free to 
good homes; send MAIL including your mailstop and how many you want, and 
I'll see if I can find 'em.

here's a silly question...

I've been so concerned with framing, roofing, etc., I haven't been spending a
whole lot of time thinking about the bathrooms.  I"m putting in a new bathroom
on the second floor and am trying to figure out if there is any reason NOT to
put in the window yet.  In other words, are there any fixtures not likely to
fit in later?  I know that things like whirlpool tubs will fit through a door,
and I suspect there shouldn't be any problems with toilets either.  I'm sure 
there may be some off the wall styles that may not fit, but I really don't
want to think about fixture yet AND I don't want to screw myself either.

btw - my windows arrived last week and I want to install them this Saturday...

-mark

    Think first!
    
    The problem is rarely getting it in the bathroom door. The problem
    is usually getting it TO the bathroom door. Turning corners in halls
    and up stairs can be the real gotcha.  the hardest units to maneuver
    with which I've worked, are the one piece fiberglass tub/shower
    units.
    
    Unless that window is one big mother, though, leaving it out
    probably won't help you very much.
    
    Alan

-mark

    
    
    		
    4 x 8 in a bathroom??  What are you?  An exhibitionist or something?   
    
    
    
    						...Dave
    

    A perfect response for 2:30 in the afternoon. That is a "big mother"
    window. 
    
    Jim, who has a wife that would rather "not" have any windows in
    the bath.

    Depends on your culture.
    
    Were traveling in France many years ago and checked into a weird
    old hotel.  Wife took a shower and then looked for window to open
    to alleviate steam and let in more light.  Turned cranks on the
    wall and enormous shutters swung open revealing floor-to-ceiling
    windows which overlooked the main street of the town - full of cars
    and people in plain sight.   I suspect, however, that the only people
    on the street who thought anything of this exhibitionism were other
    American tourists.
    

    
    	This long weekend allowed me to make great progress.  I've got
    all the wiring done and recessed lights installed.  I still can't
    believe how much wire I had to string.  It took 600 feet of single
    strand 12 gauge to run from the box to the rooms and 350 ft of Romex
    to wire up the rooms!  I wasn't doing anything tricky so the wiring
    got boring after I figured it all out.  Using 12 gauge wire is harder
    on the fingertips than 14 gauge.  
    	I installed a prehung door to the bathroom this weekend.  It
    was tricky cutting the opening through the old lath plaster without
    destroying the wall.  I had enough of a time getting in the prehung
    door, I'm glad I didn't try to hang it myself.
    	The big stuff is done and I'm doing the little things before
    the rough inspection.  With luck I should have it done by Dec 15th.
     	I've got to cut a 4" hole in the side of the house to vent the
    bathroom fan.  Can I do this with my trusty recipro saw or should
    I invest $30 in a 4" hole saw.  I hate to buy one just to make one
    cut.  Does anyone want to go halfs and buy a once used hole saw
    for $15?

    
    
    	The only difference between a 4" hole drill and your saw would
    be a perfectly round hole and who cares, there should be an outside
    cover for the hole anyway. I would use the saw instead of spending
    the money.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Hole saws have limited applicability because of their shallow depth
    of cut.  A selfeed bit that would not have that limitation would
    be VERY expensive and would require a 1/2" drill of considerable
    power.   That's the tradeoff.
    

    Aaaaaaaaaargh! (to quote Charlie Brown).
    
    I did this simple, little bit of plumbing over the weekend: replaced
    a bathroom faucet.  I also wanted to replace the sink drain and toggle
    for the drain plug assembly.  Unfortunately, the old drain flange
    (above the sink bowl) has 15 years worth of crud and corrosion bonding it
    to the line leading to the trap (below the bowl).  Any of you ex-
    or part-time plumbers know a trade secret for getting these apart?
    I'm sure I'm not the first person who has had this problem.
                                                                             
    the pipes, the pipes are caw-haw-ling...
    
    pbm
    
    

    No secrets.  If it's stuck, force it.  If it breaks, it needed 
    replacing anyway.
    Seriously, use reasonable care and effort to get it apart, but if 
    you can't don't worry about it.  Go back along the drain until you 
    find a joint you can get apart (probably at the trap) and replace from
    that point on.  It might be prudent to check for the availability
    of replacement parts before you break too many things, but odds
    are you'll be able to get everything you need.  Even if you have
    to buy a complete trap to get the 1/2 of it you need to replace,
    what's that?  Maybe $10.00 extra?  Don't sweat too much to save
    old parts.  

    
    
    	Try some Liquid Plumber.  I've used it before and have had
    	good luck with it.  You can get it at any hardware store.
    
    
    	Tony

    
    	I've finished the wiring and am going to have it inspected
    tomorrow.  I have found a potential problem that I need help
    with FAST.  Can two pieces of 3 wire 12 gauge ROMEX be fed
    through a single 3/8" ROMEX box clamp?  Yesterday I noticed a 
    clamp that had a Y attachment that looked like it was made
    for feeding in two sections of ROMEX and I'm concerned that I 
    needed to use one to meet the code?
    	Do I need to use a Y type box connector for two separate
    ROMEX lines or is using a single clamp OK?
    					=Ralph=                                
    

    You are not permitted to have two pieces of cable come through the
    same opening.  You must use a seperate opening and romex clamp for
    every cable.
    
    
    Also, there are rules governing the number of cables that can be
    fed into a single junction box.  These rules are based on the size
    of the box, the gauge of the wire, and other things like if there
    is a light/switch/receptical in the box also.  
    
    -bill

    < Note 1586.34 by BLECH::JACKSON "I'm glad I'm not a Kennedy!" >


    > You are not permitted to have two pieces of cable come through the
    > same opening.  You must use a seperate opening and romex clamp for
    > every cable.
    
    	What do they make DUPLEX CONNECTORS for?  You can not have two
    cables comming in when you are using a normal ROMEX connector. 
    They do make DUPLEX connectors for this.  The inspector may complain,
    depending on what kind of mood he in in.  He may just tell you to
    replace that with a duplex and sign you off.
    
    mac

    	I ran down at lunch to an electrical supply house 
    in Lawerance and picked up a duplex connector.  I'll
    replace the single entry with the duplex before the 
    inspection.  Does anyone with a code book know what
    the real rule is?

    From Richter and Swan, "Wiring Simplified", 34th Edition (1984 Code).
    This is not the code itself, but it's my bible:
    
    "Connectors:  When cable of any style is used for wiring, the code
    requires that it be securely anchored to each box that it enters.
     There arer many kinds of connectors for this purpose; an assortment
    is shown in Figure 9-7.  The connector at A [[ the common, or garden,
    variety]] is used for ordinary purposes; that at B for a shart 90
    degree turn [[B has a right angle in it]] and that at C when two
    pieces of cable must enter the same knockout."
    
    The picture of "C" shows one of the Y-shaped gizmos that I think
    you are talking about.  What you can't do is take a box with integral
    clamps, and put two pieces of romes through the same hole and clamp.
    

    	Yesterday was a very busy day.  The electrical inspector came
    out and after the shortest inspection on record signed off my permit.
    I was kind on disappointed that he didn't look closer, considering
    the amount of time I spent doing everything right.  The one item
    that I did wrong is that I used uninsulated staples to hold up the
    ROMEX.  It seems that MA requires that you use insulated staples.   
    My total bill for the electrical work (excluding fixtures) was $230
    and 40 hours of work.  I was quoted $720 to do the job so I figured
    I "earned" $10/hour.  I was surprised how easy home wiring is.  The
    toughest part was my finger tips got ripped up bending 12 gauge
    wire
    	The rough plumbing is complete and signed off.  The hard
    part was carrying that @#$$#%! shower base up the stairs.  It really
    feels solid!  I also had the plumber replace the rusting old cast
    iron waste pipe in my cellar.  He used an interesting method to
    remove the cast iron, a sledge hammer.  Three whacks and it all
    came tumbling down.   
    	Now that all the tough stuff is done I've got to switch over
    to finish mode.  I hate hanging wallboard.  
    	I've got to refinish the wood floors in the section of the room
    that is remaining the bedroom, but I'm not sure when to sand the
    floors.  If I sand them now I don't have to worry about edging because
    there is a gap between the floor and the studs.  However I'd hate
    to sand and get the floor get banged up during hanging the rock.
    If I wait until the walls are up I'll have to use the rotary edging
    sander.  I could use some advise, in what order would you do the
    following: sand the floor, polyurethane, hang and compound the
    sheetrock, and put up the baseboards.
    
    					Thanks again,
                                	=Ralph=
    	
                      

    Ralph,
    	My suggested sequence for the work:
    		Sand the floors, put up the sheetrock and compound,
    put up the baseboards, polyurethane.
    	This will allow you to do the sanding the way you want.  If
    you have a few scratches you only have to sand those out later with
    the edger....not the whole way around.  By putting the poly down
    last you don't have to worry about all your "work" travel in the
    room.
    Ric

    re: .39
    
    	I'd reverse your last two steps. Poly first then baseboards.
    You won't have to worry about getting Poly on the wall as it will
    be covered by the baseboard so you won't have to be careful around
    the edges as you would if the finished baseboard was already there.
    Putting in baseboard is not a job that should cause any damage to
    the floor, and you can put a tarp or paper down to protect it if
    you feel it's necessary.
    
    Alan

    If you're really concerned about doing a good sanding job while you
    have access to the edges then the order of the steps suggested is good.
    The only thing I might add is after you sand the floor, cover it with
    some type of protective paper, tarp, cardboard and tape the edges to
    hold it down. Sheetrock and joint compound dust would be next to
    impossible to get out of a sanded but unsealed wood floor, especially
    if you step on it. 
    
    Charly

    I would put up the sheetrock before sanding the floors. Gypsum
    dust goes everywhere, even under carefully-laid tarps, and
    I expect it would raise havoc with a newly-finished floor.  Save
    the baseboards until last.  I would do:
    	sheetrock+tape (or plaster, or whatever you're doing)
    	sand
    	poly
    	baseboards (pre-paint before installing)

    We've been renovating a bathroom.  The wall sections I replaced are
sheet rock.  The rest are homeosote-like compressed sawdust with some kind
of paint-like finish.  I prepared the walls with wallpaper sealer/primer -
the powder mix kind.  The primer that was applied to my sheet rock seemed
to do the trick - the sheet rock paper turned dark, indicating that the
water-based primer was being absorbed, and soon dried.  The other surfaces
didn't get darker and stayed wet for a long time - no absorption seemingly.
    Now, our prepasted vinyl wallpaper doesn't stick, especially to the
junky wallboard.
    I re-read the directions on the sealer, and the only thing it claims to
do is aid in future strippability.  It says nothing about improving adhesion.
And, come to think of it, they almost seem mutually incompatible.
    Anyway, how can I make our wallpaper stick?

I've had the same problem.  It's messy, but even with some types of
pre-pasted wallpaper, I've used good old wallpaper paste.  The contractor
who did the hallway in my house also uses paste even with pre-pasted
wallpaper.

						JoeF

I don't recall reading in your note the step that said "applied sizing..."

-mark

    
    
    	I had the same problem once and found out that if you store
    the wallpaper in the cellar for a few weeks the moister will eat
    all the paste away. Get some paste and do it to it.
    
    	-Steve-
    

I would like some information and advice about remodeling our bathroom.
What we want to do is gut it out, remove a bearing wall (3' wide) and
move it back down a hall.  The purpose of this is to give us access to
the basement.  The way it is now:


   +----------------------+--------+--------+
    stairs                | shower | toilet |
   +---------------+ door +        +        +
    hallway     ?<------- b sink            window
                          w              +--+
   +----------------------+----+ door +--+


It's not a very good drawing, but, I think you get the idea.  We want to
move the bearing wall (bw) back to the question mark.  Also, put in a
fiber glass shower, vanity, new ceilings, and new subfloor.  I will do 
the tiling and the wallpapering myself.   

I've had 2 estimates so far:  $2800 and $3800.   I had a guy in 
yesterday that said I can't do it, because the tenant (who right now can
get to the basement thru the present hallway) won't have 2 exits from
the basement.   I know you have to have 2 exits from the
apartment.   I was planning to have an electrician in to move the gas
burner switch to the tenants side of the wall and put a lock on the
bulkhead door and give the tenant a key to get to the circuit breakers.

After redesigning the whole bathroom his way, the guy gave me an 
estimate $6000.  And he still didn't give the tenant 2 exits from the
basement!

So, my questions are:  Is it true the tenant has to have 2 exits from
                       the basement?  

                       Are professional contractor's supposed to know
                       all this before they do the job or is the home-
                       owner supposed to do the research ahead of time?

                       When I get an estimate, is it fixed?  If they
                       go way over, do I have to pay?

                       Also, how far can you put a drain from the vent
                       pipe?  

This is the first time I've dealt with contractors - what a nightmare!
They all say different things/ I don't know which one to trust.  The
guy that wants $6000.  didn't spot the bearing wall.  The other 2 guys
did.  Should I judge him on that?  Maybe it's so obvious, he didn't 
think it worth mentioning?

Thanks for any help you can give me.  I'm going to try to find out
a few things myself, but, if you people have already dealt with this
it may save me a few steps.  

I live in Maynard, MA.  just so you'll know what codes I may fall under.

Thanks,

- Linda

                       

    From your drawing, it doesn't look like the 3' section you want
    to move is a load bearing wall.  Is there a second floor to the
    house?
    
    Offhand I'd say you did have to provide two exits from the basement.
    
    When dealing with contractors, get everything in writing.  Dates,
    times, costs, who does what, etc.  There are several notes in here
    you may learn from.
    
    
    Phil

Reply to .1:  Yes there is a second floor.  The staircase to it is over
the basement staircase, parallel to the hallway.

Thanks for your reply.

    Are you planning on leaving the door to the stairs in the bathroom?
    What are you planning on doing with the new floor space, shower,
    vanity, toilet, etc.?
    
    Could you put a door in the outside wall (I assume it's an outside
    wall) that would give access to the stairs?
    
    There is also a technique that might allow you to move the door
    to the middle of the stair case, though it's doubtful if there
    is another staircase above. You construct a movable platform
    which covers the stairs, walk to the existing landing and then
    raise the platform to gain access to the stairs.
    
    Alan
    
    PS To emphasise, GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING, including the way of
       handling unforseen circumstances.

>    Are you planning on leaving the door to the stairs in the bathroom?

	Yes, my laundry area is in the basement at the bottom of the
	stairs.  Right now, I have to go out my front door and into
	the tenant's door to get to the door in the hallway.  It's
	very inconvenient, especially in the winter!

>    What are you planning on doing with the new floor space, shower,
>    vanity, toilet, etc.?

	The layout will stay the same, (shower, toilet) except we will 
	replace the sink with a vanity and move it back beyond the door 
	to the basement.  As you can see, I'm not gaining a whole lot
	accept access to the basement.  
    
>    Could you put a door in the outside wall (I assume it's an outside
>    wall) that would give access to the stairs?

	I never thought of that.  It is an outside wall.  But, that
	may bring the price considerably.  That $6000.00 figure was
	way out of my budget.


Thanks,

- Linda


	

    Off hand I would say the tenant would still have 2 exits
    from the cellar with the new door....One through the bulkhead
    and the second through your apartment (for emergencies), although
    I have never heard of that requirement( I am a landlord also). The
    only "2 means of egress" that I know of is from the dwelling unit
    itself which does not include the cellar. Unless the fuse box is
    in the cellar, the tenant does not have to have access at all.
    
    On the vent question, if the drain is over approx(?) 5 feet from
    the main vent, plumbers like to install a "revent" which is a smaller
    vent that goes to the main vent.  Although I don't know what the
    code says.
    
    Hope that helps.
    

Hello,
 We recently bought a house with an in-law apartment in Maynard and applied
for a variance to change the house into an official two-family. The upstairs
tenant has _no_ access to the basement except through the downstairs apartment.
After the rule of two egresses _for_the_apartment_ was met, the inspector came
to check my work and also checked the basement. He gave us a certificate of
occupancy and never mentioned the access to the basement. Perhaps he forgot.
We previously lived on Dartmouth Street in Maynard and that house did have
2 entrances to the basement for the upstairs tenant but both entrances were
4' tall and so did not meet the height requirement for a door. I don't know
if that house had an official certificate of occupancy or whether both our
houses are covered under some grandfather clause. 
 The building inspector is available, I believe, on Tuesday evenings, in
the basement of the building with the library in Maynard, at 7:30 pm. They
have told me explicitly what I needed to do when I went to them and I am
satisfied with dealing with them.

 Kind regards,
-Tom Rezucha

	Thanks for all the replies.  It looks like I'm going to get
	what I want.  The last contractor I spoke to said you definitely
	don't need two exits from the basement for the tenant, as long
	as they have access to their circuit breakers, and 2 exits from
	their apartment, that's all that's required.  I am going to
	verify that before construction, but, I'm pretty certain he's
	right.

	One more question though:  Who pulls the building permit?
                                  The contractor or the homeowner?
                                  Is it necessary with what I'm doing?

        Thanks, I appreciate all your help.

	- Linda

    I would suggest you pull a permit if you're messing with a load
    bearing wall.  If something should happen down the road you would
    be covered insurance wise.  You might be better getting this yourself,
    because the inspectors hours may not coincide with the contractors.
    I think they cost $10.
    
    					Steve

    	First I suggest you check around your town to find out the inside
    information on your building inspector.  If they turn out to be
    reasonable, I just call or go down and talk with them.  I tried
    to do a renovation without a permit, got caught and slapped with
    a cease and desist order.  I got it straightened out and now I get
    permits for everything.
    	Most contractors and all trades people will not work without
    a permit.  If the contractor says he'll take care of it, check with
    the town to make sure he does.

    				=Ralph=
    
    	( I've done a 180� shift in my position on permits within the
    	  last year)

    Linda,
    
    I too would sugest that you take out the permit for the reason
    mentioned a couple of replies back, and also in the event that things
    don't go according to plan and you wind up firing your contractor
    and getting another one to finish the work.  I know this may sound
    overly cautious, and a little tacky, but it (problems with contractors)
    does happen.  If the contractor takes the permit out on your behalf,
    and something happens requiring you to change "midstream" you may
    have to go through the whole process again... submitting plans,
    taking out another permit etc. 
    

	Well, I took the advice of the above replies and went to
	the town hall Tuesday night to get a permit.  Everything
	went great....he took one look at the drawing and told
	me it is a load bearing wall and it had to be done a
	certain way.  Which was fine, the contractor already
	explained that to me.

	I asked him about the 2 exits from the basement for the
	tenant.  He said that a bulkhead is not a legal egress,
	because, it can freeze shut in the winter.  But, if the
	only reason the tenant had to get to the basement was to
	flick a circuit breaker it was no problem.  

	He gave our plans the go ahead.

	I want to thank everyone for their help and advice.  I'll
	send a reply later and let you all know how good a job
	my contractor does.

	- Linda

	

    	No, I haven't finished this project.  My wife wouldn't let me
    work during the holidays so that things would stay clean for more
    than ten minutes.  The one weekend I took off stretched out to three
    as I remembered that there are other things to do on weekends rather
    than strap on the tool belt at 8 am.  Now well rested and filled
    with enthusiasm :^) I'm ready to attack  putting up wall board.
    	I bought a Makita screw gun ($70 at NHD, they're having a big
    Makita sale), built my cross and have got all the tools.  First
    I'm doing the bedroom and closet, then I'll do the bathroom.  The
    bedroom has many small walls and a wall section that meets the roof
    at 45�, so it will be a challenge.  There is a wealth on wall board
    info in this file but I still need a few questions answered:
    
    	1)  How important is it to have the tapered edge on an inside
    corner?
        2)  How important is it to have the tapered edge on an outside
    corner?
    	3)  At the wall section that is 45� to the ceiling and wall
    should I try to cut the wall board at 45� or just plan on using
    more compound
    	4)  Is 3/8" board used for the ceiling because of the weight?
    	5)  How many screws should I put in a ceiling piece before taking
    down the support cross?
    
    
    					As usual, thanks
    
    					=Ralph= 
    	

    re: .43
    
    1) Not at all
    
    2) Not at all  - in fact unless all your walls are in 4' increments
    			you don't have any choice in the matter. The
    			one place you have to have the taper is on a
    			flat surface.
    
    3) Is your 45 an outside or inside corner? If it's an inside, cut
    	it square. If its outside it will need a corner bead or wood
    	casing of some kind so it won't matter there either.
    
    4) About a dozen, but, I tend to conservatism on this.
    
    Alan

    2) Tapered edge on outside corner? Not at all, even better with out. If
    you had one side of the corner tapered and the other not, it would make
    it harder to install the corner bead properly. Better to have two flat
    surfaces to mount that on. After you mud the corner bead, the muded
    area goes well beyond where the taper would have been anyways. 

    Another tip: Don't be tempted to end with a tapered adge next to a door
    or window, thinking it will make for a nice clean edge before you get
    around to putting the molding up. That edge is impossible to mud
    properly and if you don't mud it, the recessed edge could interfere
    with your molding installation later. 
    
    Charly

    Two expand a bit on .44
    It's a good idea to use metal corner bead for all outside corners
    to minimize damage from normal wear and tear, and also makes it
    easier to finish mudding.
     
    From experience with inside angles on cathedral ceilings, I would
    use a metal bead strip which I think is called metal tape. It is
    two strips of metal joined together by a strip of paper that acts
    like a hinge. It will give you a good guide for a nice straight
    joint.
     
    Screws per sheet depends on sheet size and orientation. Twelve
    screws for an 8 ft. ceiling sheet, 24 for a 16 ft. ceiling sheet.
    Halve these figures for wall sheets. As Al said, these are conservative
    figures.
    

    I am trying to find a discount outlet anywhere in the Mass,
    NH, etc area that handles MOEN faucets.
    
    Specifically I am looking for the model 4545 bathroom riser
    faucet.  My local plumbing supply in Gardner, Ma wants $137.
    The Maynard Faucetorium wants $159.
    
    NO WAY.  Does anyone know if Spags (for sure) or anyone else
    carries MOEN at reasonable prices?
    
    Thanks
    

Try P.F. O'Conner in Revere, MA.  I think I saw the brand in their huge 
warehouse. 

Alex
    

    
      I just bought a faucet a spags and the only one he had that were
    any good were price pfiester faucets.
    
                                                  John C.
    

    I've bought Moen faucets at Grossman's and Channel at various times.
    Keep your eyes out for a sale; their regular prices aren't so great.
    
    pbm
    

    Try Masi Plumbing on Otterman st. in Nashua, I bought a Moen shower
    valve from them..........
    
    
    
    Royce

Bought mine  at  K-Mart  in  Manchester,  NH 4 years ago.  Just went back
(summer) for a replacement cartridge.

    Give Standard of Lynn a call.  I don't know if they carry Moen but
    they are pretty good on price.  800-325-3351
    
    Also try North Andover Supply.  They carry Moen but I don't know
    what they would charge.  686-0711
    
    Stan

    Lets try this again.
    My bathroom ceiling paint has peeled. I have scraped all the paint
    off and am down to solid plaster. (house was built 30 years ago
    and all walls and ceilings are rock lath then covered by plaster)
    My idea is ...
    first prime the ceiling with oil primer 
    then paint with 2 part epoxy paint. 
    I believe the 2 part epoxy will be just about impervious to 
    water/steam/dirt and should be a cheap and attractive alternative to 
    -say- tiling the ceiling.
    Question is 
    Any problem with the 2 part epoxy adhering to the plaster covered 
    by oil primer?
    
    I am particulary interested in 2 part EPOXY paint because it worked so
    well for me on a linoleum counter. I would like to restrict this
    discussion to the pros and cons of epoxy paint since the subject
    of bathroom ceilings in general, has been covered so extensively
    in other notes.
    Has anybody out there actually tried 2part epoxy on well cured plaster?
    Am wondering if perhaps the reagents might eat up the plaster. Bear
    in mind the plaster is 30 years old.
    Any other concerns/observations

    
    
    					herb

    Herb, can you try a test someplace? A closet maybe? Prepare an area of
    the wall or ceiling the same way you did the bathroom ceiling and try
    out the epoxy paint. If it works, great, then proceed to the bathroom
    ceiling. If it doesn't,... well, at least you didn't ruin your bathroom
    ceiling.
    
    Charly

    I have used epoxy paint quite a bit.  It works good for boats over
    fiberglass, steel and the like.  Are you sure you don't want to do 
    your boat?  You could fiberglass your ceiling first to be sure the 
    epoxy bonds well.  {:-)
    
    Epoxy paint is expensive but I guess it is cheaper that ripping
    out the ceiling.  The two epoxy compounds react with each other
    and if properly mixed should be stable upon completion of the
    reaction.  I have never tried the stuff on plaster but I think it
    should not have a problem bonding.  I don't know if epoxy paint
    comes in flat colors.  Do you mind a shiny ceiling?  How about 
    using bottom paint for boats then you won't have to worry about 
    mildew either.
    
    If you need help, I can provide detailed instructions on applying
    epoxy paint to submarine hulls.  Good for 10 years in salt water!
    
    Stan

    re .1
    A test has the disadvantage that ...
    I believe it would be necessary to wait several months/years before 
    the durability of the epoxy was proven.
    
    re .2 I don't know if epoxy paints come in flat finishes but I like
    the high gloss look in any case.
    
    Additional info.
    The two part epoxy paint we have now is Sears Marine Epoxy paint
    It comes in 2 one pint cans, 1 containing the catalyst, the other
    containing the pigment (white in this case). The 2 cans together
    (1 quart) cost $10.49 whenever it was purchased-probably around
    5 years ago. So a question on shelf life might be in order as well
    The instructions read...
    "Use Sears Marine Epoxy Paint above and below water on small boats
    and other equipment thatt is not left in the water. On larger boats
    and cruisers use Sears Marine Epoxy on the hull, deck, interior and
    exterior cabin, laminated canvas... anywhere heavy duty performance
    is required."
			
    FYI, the ingredients are ...

    	Catalyst 
    Epoxy Resin					45.5%
    Xylol -whatever that is			30.8%
    Ethylene Glycol-Monobutyl Ether		17.8%
    Methylk Isobutyl Ketone			 5.9%
    

	Paint
    
    			Pigment
    Titanium Dioxide				47.8%
    
	    		Vehicle
    Polyamide Resin				15.9%
    Xylol					33.1%
    Butyl Alchohol				 3.2%
    
    The father of a friend is a Phd industrial chemist. Am going to
    check with him.
    
    
    				herb

    As a long time user of epoxy, I thought I'd add that you want to
    be sure that there is no water at all in the base (Your plaster)
    as the smallest amount would cause bubbling/peeling after a time.
    I'd try to dry it real good, with a hair dryer (Small ceiling) or
    forced hot air heater right on the surface before the application.
    Do it untill the surface feels quite warm and then let cool to room
    temp before proceeding, and you should do ok.

    
    	This weekend my wife and I hung 22 sheets of board.  We started
    out in the 5'x 5' walk in closet so we could practice where it didn't
    matter.  All in all it wasn't too bad, we worked 6 hours on both
    Saturday and Sunday.  The toughest part was getting all the board
    out of my dad's truck and up the stairs.  
    	Once I got smart and realized that the sheets didn't have to
    be cut perfect thing really moved along.  We had lots of angle and
    outlets so there was lots of cutting and dust.  
    	Next week we do the bathroom and will be hanging 'Green' board
    and Wonderboard/Durock/cementboard.  I plan on using the cement
    board for the walls of the shower but I'm not sure how high to go
    up the wall.  Should I go all the way (8 ft) to the ceiling or can
    I just go up 5 ft?  How should I fasten the cement board to the
    studs?  I was planning to use the same screws that I used for the
    drywall.  One place recommended that I use 1�" roofing nails to
    fasten in the cement board because the nails are galvanized and
    have a wide flat head.
    	I've got to put drywall around the roof window to box it in.
    The wood frame around the window extends in only 4" and I've got
    to bring it in another 4-6" to make it flush with the wall.  Is
    there a special bead that I should use for where the drywall and
    the wood frame butt together?  
    
    
    					Thanks again
    					=Ralph=

    .3:
    
    I think you'll find that the xylol, ethylene glycol, monobutyl ether,
    MIK and butyl alcohol are all either vehicle components, or stuff
    to change the consistency or set-up characteristics of the epoxy.
    I believe that all of them (possibly excluding the ethylene glycol)
    are quite volatile.
    
    Dick
    

      I have used wonderboard in a bathroom twice before so I have a
    little experience at it; Yes, you can (and I recommend it) use sheetrock
    screws to hang it. They even make their own holes (just like in sheetrock)
    so the stuff goes up in a snap. If you are concerned about the screws
    rusting, you can now get them hot-dipped galvanized! I have seen
    them at several places including Plywood Ranch, but be warned they
    are VERY expensive (but you shouldn't need too many).
    
      AS far as putting it up all the way to the ceiling; if you are
    putting the wonderboard above a tub, it should almost go TO the ceiling,
    since a tub is ~16" high, and I would think that would be sufficient.
    
    				Hope this helps,
    					Kenny

    "are quite volatile"
    
    What are the relevant implications of 'volatile'
    
    Do you mean volatile as in 
    explosive or dangerous or harmful to respiration etc
    or as in
    "stuff that volatile will eat the plaster"
    or as in 
    they go thru their transformations quickly so no long term concerns
	(i.e. if they haven't eaten a test sample in a couple of days
         then they won't because by then they will be 'inert')

    in re PHD chemist. He says, not enuf info to determine the chemical
    interactions. He also suggested that once the curing process has
    stopped -day or two- that either the ceiling will have been affected
    or it ain't gonna be. (so I guess that is what you meant by 'volatile
    .5
    re .1 Chemist guy also suggested trying a closet or something. Maybe
    you missed your calling Charly -:). So now i will find an obscure
    closet spot, strip it with 5f5 and have at it with a small amount
    of epoxy.
    
    re .4 Good suggestion: We just bought an electric space heater that
    will be ideal for drying the ceiling if we determine that's the
    way do go.
    
    Thnx for the suggestions so far, folks.
    I would have prefered a testimonial rather than a test
    but I guess nobody has tried epoxy on plaster before.
    
				herb

    .6, on .5:
    
    Volatile, as in "evaporates quickly at room temperature".
    
    Dick
    

    re. .8
    thnx for trying Dick, but I am still in the dark.
    
    Which of the points in .3 is being addressed by the comment
    "evaporates quickly at room temperature".? Or, if some other point
    is being made what is that other point?
    Also, what is the significance of your title "some of them are listed
    as 'vehicle' components?
    
    Perhaps you are assuming more knowledge of chemistry on my part
    than I actually possess?
    
    
    				regards
    				herb
    

    This weekend, I stripped one wall of one shelf of our linen closet
    (about 2' x 2' with 5f5. Then washed down the wall thoroughly with
    denatured alchohol. Waited several hours, then applied the mixed 
    epoxy to the wall. 
    As an afterthought, I painted a 6" sq section of the bathroom ceiling.
    If the ceiling doesn't take, I can strip off that little bit very
    easily with 5f5. 
    So there are 2 experiments going on. Closet is stripped bare and 
    was NOT primed. Bathroom was stripped bare and primed with oil based
    primer several Weeks ago.
    Everything fine so far.
    
    p.s.
    Working in the closet with 5f5 and/or denatured alchohol is not
    particularly recommended since the fumes are very powerful!
    If it had been more than a couple of minutes work it would have
    been a VERY bad idea. Fortunately, the bathroom has a window.
    
    				herb

    regarding volatility:
    
    I strongly suspect that you'd want to have good ventilation while
    using this paint (at least while you're in the area);  long or repeated
    exposures to *large* concentrations might not be healthful for you.
    I'd consider keeping a window open if at all possible (the weather
    has been good for that, fortunately).  In those quantities, the
    vapors probably wouldn't be explosive, again assuming that you've
    got a window open, or vent fan going.
    
    Dunno if it would eat plaster, though -- we didn't do that in high
    school :-) .  Your PhD friend might shed some light there.
    
    Dick
    

    re .-1
    
    thnx Dick. I agree! The warnings on the can about the noxious vapors
    should be heeded! It is *very* unpleasant stuff.
    
    
    			herb

    	All the board is up!  Working with the cement board was very
    easy.  Beleive it or not the stuff does 'score and snap'.  The only
    tough part of the whole thing was getting the ceilings up.  I guess
    I overestimated my wife's strength!  Working with the green board
    was nice because it is not very dusty.  I didn't do the most efficient
    job, I've got lots of scraps.  It was a bit of a shock to find that
    cement board sells for $17-18 per 3'x5' sheet.  
    	Now comes the MUD.  I've got a few more questions (what else
    is new!)
    
    	1) Which tape do you use, the paper or the mesh?  I'm going
    to use metal tape for the 45� seams
    
    	2) Should I thin out the compound for the first coat?  My
    home video suggests this
    
    	3) How many bucket of compound do you use?  I've got a 10x12' and
    a 6'x6' room
    	
        4) How long does it take for the compound to set enough before
    I use a damp sponge to smooth out the seams.
    
    				thanks
    				=Ralph=                    
    	

    I did the bathroom ceiling yesterday!
    
    As far as I am concerned it is a success! It took about 45 minutes
    to paint. Hardened in a few hours.
    A point that needs reemphasis. Painting with 2 part epoxy SHOULD
    NOT BE DONE unless there is plenty of fresh air. That probably 
    means it should never be done in the winter unless the outside
    temperature is above 50 degress Fahrenheit. This is because the
    fumes are extremely unpleasant and require an open window in the
    work space.  I should have waited for warmer weather! As it was,
    it became necessary to open the bathroom window, but the window
    could not be kept open for long because it was so cold outside -in
    Massachusetts. There are instructions on the can about minimum
    temperature. Don't remember what that temp is, but it was only about
    20 deg F yesterday.
    In summary, the epoxied surface is very hard, should withstand all
    water attacks, cost l.t. $20 to do a 6x8 ceiling, and is quite shiny.
    The epoxy I used came from Sears. It is an off-white color which
    is darker than an oil-based white paint. I would have liked it to
    be whiter. I will be putting another coat on when warmer
    weather comes; because of the fumes, I did not do as thorough a
    job as I should have. The 2 pint cans are enough to do the ~48 sq
    ft twice. The shiny, off white may not be for everyone, although
    the shine is not much more brilliant that oil based paint would
    be.  My conclusion so far is that this is another inexpensive 
    permanent solution to peeling paint in a bathroom. I would do it
    again
    
    
    				herb
    
    it 
    

	   I'm in the process of sheetrocking a house and will soon be 
	getting to the bathroom. I've bought blue board for it.
        At this point I'm not sure weather I'll be buying a new 
	one piece tub unit (tub and walls in one piece) or if I'll
	be using my existing tub and three piece all unit, whatever the 
	case. My concerned, at this time, is weather I should sheetrock
        the walls around the tub area before installing the tub or weather
	the tub should be installed first.

  	
		Does anyone have any experience with this?
		What's the correct procedure?
		Any comments would be appriceated.


	thanks,
	Ray.

    install the tub/shower first, the sheetrock butts against the top
    of the tub/shower unit.
    
    
    
    Royce

    
    
    	The tub goes in first. 
    
    	All the tubs that I saw need to have the sheetrock rest on a
    tub flange and not on the top of the tub, its like a step. Then
    there is another smaller step that the tub enclosure sits on.

    SR 	=  Sheetrock
    TE	=  Tub enclosure
    
    
   Wall 
    
    x SR				x
    x					x
    x	TE				x
    x					x
    x					x
    x 					x
    x					x
    x					x
    xxxx			     xxxx
    x   x			    x
    x	xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    

    
    1) Either type works ok on the beveled joints. For butt joints,
       you can't beat the self-adhesive mesh tape to give the lowest-
       profile joint possible. I use the mesh everywhere.
    
    2) Never thinned on any coat, never any problems. Thinned compound
       will shrink more as it dries.
    
    3) Three, maybe? Corners tend to eat a lot of the stuff, especially
       outside corners.
    
    4) The last coat tends to be _very_ thin, and dries within 4-8
       hours. My personal preference is to sand with 220-grit paper; I've
       done more damage than smoothing with a damp sponge.

    Re: How many buckets of joint compound
    
    Assuming 5 gallon buckets, 3 is an awful lot. 
    
    I just did a LARGE bedroom, 20 X 9 and a closet plus ceilings in both.
    That means a lot of corners, 4 in the room, 4 in the closet, plus the
    ceiling to wall corner (78') around the room and in the closet. I used
    2 1/2 gallons (1/2 bucket) for all of the seams and corners. Then we
    textured the ceiling using 7 1/2 gallons. 10 gallons or 2 buckets for
    everything. 
    
    Charly 

    Another concern should be around blueboard vs a moisture resistent
    board (sometimes called green board). Local code where I lived forced
    me to use the water resistent variety. Greenboard is discussed
    elsewhere in this file, and perhaps some more experienced home-workers
    can comment on this.
    
    Dave

    
    
      re .3
    
    	I thought that blue board and green board were the same
    except for color?
         When I bought the stuff I asked for the water resistant
    wallboard. The stuff I got looks blue to me.
    	Am I assuming something I shouldn't?

    I used water resistant wall board behind the sink and all arounf
    the tub/shower.  My local bld. insp. had no problems with this.
    The room has a window and a ceiling light/fan and there is not much
    mositure accumulated in the room.
    

    Be careful! Blueboard and greenboard are not the same thing. B.B.
    is usually used when a skim coat of plaster is to be put on. G.B.
    is water resistant wall board. Do yourself a favor and make sure
    you put up a water resistant/proof wall board. There are a few
    different kinds/makes.
    
    Bob
    

    Use neither.  Both are gypsum sandwiched between paper with different
    colored coatings applied.  No matter how carefully you grout, moisture
    will get in and dissolve the sheetrock.
    
    What you need around a tub is concrete.  Mud and wire lathe if money
    is no object or wonderboard (pre-cast concrete panels).  If you
    intend to stay in the house more than three years, this is the way to
    go.  The increment in cost over sheetrock of any color is about 2X.
    For the four panels that would suround the tub, it's about an extra
    $80.  Wonderboard is typical for tub surrounds for most new
    construction I've seen.  
    
    I had to replace a sheetrock backed shower stall that was about
    six years old.  When I tore away the old tile the sheetrock had
    turned to mush and over 50% of the studding had rotted to powder.
    The smell was indescribable.  $80 spent six years ago would have
    saved the small fortune required to rebuild  the stall.
    
    -Gene Ho

    
    re .7.......That's the stuff I was trying to think of when I replied
    in .6 - WONDERBOARD. If I was to make a new bathroom or do one over
    I would definitly spend the xtra money and go with it to do it right.
    I helped my brother do his bathroom and that stuff is HEAVY. It
    is definitly one or two steps better than green board.
    
    
    Bob

    We got our kitchen Moen Riser from Eastern Supply of Framingham
    (I think that's it...there are a couple plumbing supply houses all
    in the same are there).  The kitchen riser ran us less than $100.00
    there (NOT on sale). It was going for $130-150 everywhere else.
    You might give them a call (617-875-4051).
    
    By the way, I recommend this outfit.  It's not much when you first
    walk in, but the guys there are extremely helpful and have millions
    of square feet of stock behind the counter.
    
    -- Mike Kilian
    

I want to put in a half-wall (or whatever they're called) next to my toilet.
You know what I mean, one of those things that hide the toilet and at the same
time make a nice shelf.  Anyhow, in thinking more about it, I'm trying to figure
out the best way to make it strong.  Obviosly framing it like a wall would make
it fall down the first time someone leaned on it.

I've thought of several options ranging from screwing the studs to the floor
from below (since I'm doing a room below I have access to the bathroom floor) to
using a variety of brakets.

However, I think my latest idea has the most merit, but am trying to determine
if there's even a better way.  I thought if I cut a hole in the floor big enough
to fit a 2X4 through, I could simply both the studs to an adjacent floor joist,
much in the same way people secure railings to a deck.  Since the floor is done
12" in center, I won't have to move wall more than 6" either way to get close
enough to a joist.

comments?

-mark

    If I were going to do it, I would frame a wall with either 2X4's
    or 2X6's, and then either nail or screw it to the floor and to the
    strapping in the ceiling and also nail it to the wall in the bathroom.
    doing it this way should make it plenty strong enough.
    
    
    
    
    Royce

    Frame it, put screws into the wall and floor. Make sure you hit
    a stud in the wall. This should be strong enough.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with the last 2 notes.  Only screwing it to the 
floor would provide little strength, unless you don't think anyone would ever
apply any horizontal force to it.

-mark

Half walls in bathrooms get sat upon.  They also get leaned against since there
usually is little room  to  move  around  in there.  You will be unable to keep
children from doing either of the above.

A free end frame piece 2X4 through the  floor  with the other end anchored to a
wall stud will keep it from wiggling loose.  Be careful, though, and don't make
the toilet area so small that you cannot easily remove  and  replace the toilet
if/when it becomes necessary.

Dave

Re:.0

Wow -- a "Why did they ever do THAT?" note in the making.  I would think 
if you made the half wall wide enough to be useful as a shelf or a seat, 
it should be wide enough to be fairly stable when anchored by 
conventional means.  If there's enough slop in the placement of the wall 
so that you could get an upright next to a joist, isn't there enough 
slop so you can put the sole plate OVER a joist and screw/nail into it 
for strength?  If you're still worried, you could put some glue on it as 
well.  That would give many many square inches of bonding.

					>>>==>PStJTT

re:-1

I had thought of simply screwing/nailing the sole plate to the floor but ---
what will keep the studs secured to the sole plate!  I'd be curious to see if
anyone out there has a half wall and just how sturdy they are.  I expect this
sucker to last for years and if it need to come out, I'll get out the chain
saw!

-mark

+---------------------                Here's what my old man did when he built
!                                     a half wall. He built a framework and he
!   ***                               anchored it to the floor by putting a 2
!--*****--------------- <-- joist     *4 on both the north and south sides of 
!  *****                              a joist. He put a bolt through the three
!   ***  <- toilet                    pieces of timber. Then he put another
!                   XXX <-- 2*4       piece of timber on top of the joist to
!----------------------               fill the gap between the two 2*4s (are
!                   XXX <-- 2*4       you with me so far ?)
!
!                                     He bolted through the 2*4 / filler / 2*4
+------------------------             "sandwich" three times. OK this stopped
                                      any N/S movement, but still left the
possibility of E/W movement (pivoting on the bottom bolt through the joist) so
he attached right-angle brackets: one half of the bracket to the joist, and
the other half to the "sandwich".  He repeated the entire process for each  of
the joists that the half wall passed over.   He did not attach the half wall
to the main wall - there was nothing convenient to anchor it to. 

Next he clad the frame-work in plasterboard, and finally - just to give the
whole thing a solid feel - he filled the frame-work to an eighteen inch depth
with CONCRETE !!   Now that's what I call over-engineering  :-)

Henry Gillard - TSC Sydney

    This is a hard problem - done wrong in practice a lot, by the number
    of wobbly half-walls I've seen.  Free ends of railings and bannisters
    have the same structure problem (and are also often loose).
    
    All the suggestions about attachment techniques to the floor and
    adjacent wall are skirting the real problem - any sideways pressure
    on the "free" corner causes a relatively large moment about the
    point where the studs attach to the sole plate.  They will try to
    rotate from side-to-side.   A huge screw up through the bottom of
    the plate into the stud won't help since it's at the fulcrum of the
    pivot (that'll just insure that the wall never comes apart if pulled
    upward, but that's not a common loading scenario).

    The obvious solution (using the railing analogy) is to pass the studs down
    through the floor and attach them sideways to a joist.

    If you can't do that, you have to try to prevent rotation as much
    as possible - try anchoring the sides of the studs to the sides
    of the sole plate with galvanized tees.  Try finishing the wall
    with plywood instead of plasterboard with lots of screws in the
    area where studs meet sole plate.
    
    

        Plasterboard (or plywood, as mentioned in .-1) adds a lot of
        stability to the wall.  I remodeled my kitchen where there is a
        half-wall, and found that after I had screwed the plasterboard
        on, I couldn't straighten the wall (with the plasterboard off, it
        was very wobbly - although it had been constructed very poorly to
        begin with).  Plywood screwed securely might give the needed
        strength. 
        
        It isn't only necessary to screw along the sole plate. Assuming
        the top of the half-wall is secured to the wall, the whole
        half-wall will have to flex for the unsecured corner to give.  If
        the wall by itself is inflexible, the problem is solved. Plywood
        screwed securely to both sides of the half-wall will give a
        surprising amount of rigidity. 

    	I've started 'mudding' with pretty good success.  There is
    definitely a special touch needed, but I'm getting the hang of it.
    I decided to use the fiberglass mesh tape for the whole job.  It
    is about three times more expensive ($8 vs $3) but can be put up
    before the mud is applied.  It worked out well in that my wife hung
    tape and I laid down the goop.
    	One area that I had trouble with is the corners and where the
    wall  meets the ceiling.  The first coat went easy, the corner trowel
    worked like a dream.  The problem I'm having is with the second
    coat.  I can feather one side easy enough with my 6" blade, but
    I can not do both sides at once!  I keep messing up the first side
    when I try the second.  Is there any magic method that I do not
    know about?  Am I the only person who will admit that they can't
    do both sides at once?
    	I hope to finish up and prep the walls by the first of march.
    Then comes the tile and the real bathroom stuff.

    re .52, inside corners...
    
    The trick (for me, anyway) is to "divide and conquer":
    
    1) Tape, and apply first coat of mud with corner trowel - let dry.
    
    2) If there are shrinkage cracks in corner, add second coat with corner
       trowel - let dry (do not attempt to feather).
    
    3) Sand down any high spots on either side of corner. Now you should
       have a smooth corner, with a slight drop-off about 2" to either
       side.
    
    4) With 3" flat blade and same motion as filling in screw dimples (apply
       across, scrape down), add mud to feather the edges - do not
       apply to the corner itself. Let dry.
    
    5) Repeat step 4 as necessary (depending on depth of drop-off  and
       shrinkage after step 4).

    I have never used a corner trowel, buit then I've never mudded a
    whole room .
    
    The instructions I got said not to attempt to to both sides of the
    corner at once, but to do one side, let it dry, and then do the
    other.  That works great.  
    
    But of course, I had to try to do both sides at once.  I made a
    mess.


        Andrew
                                                              
	    

>    But of course, I had to try to do both sides at once.  I made a
>    mess.

I made a 'mess' the first couple of corners.  What you have to realize is that
it's not going to be perfect the first couple of coats.  You put the mud on 
both sides, trowel from top til you can't go no further, then trowel from 
bottom up over where you stopped.

I found that having a bucket of water handy and dipping the trowel just before
using helped a lot.  When you go from bottom to over where you stopped you 
should clean the excess mud off the trowel.

The overlapping portion is going to be so so.  DON'T go over it again.  Let it
dry and get it the next coat.  That's where I made my biggest mistake was going
back over it again.  I just gets worser, no betterer.

my $.02 for the morning.

	I finished up with the mud and put on one coat of SHIELDZ wall
    size.  I ended up doing the corners one side at a time and going
    back for a 4th coat on the ceiling seams.  I'm *very* pleased with
    the way it turned out and now am thinking about doing away with
    the wall paper and just painting.  The whole mud process took me
    40 hours for a 9x10 and a 8x6 room. Here is a list of tips that I
    learned the hard way:
    
    	1) Don't thin down the mix.  It may go on easier but it shrinks
    too much
    	2) Clean the blade and the pan often.  There is nothing worse
    than dried specks to ruin a job
    	3) Don't worry too much about the first coat, and keep the
    remaining coats thin, unless you like to sand
    	4) Buy a good dust mask and put a fan in the window when sanding.
    I think mud dust is worse that horse hair plaster dust
    	5) Use the mixer that fits into a �" drill.  I borrowed one
    from a friend and it really made the compound much smoother to apply.
    
    	I've got some questions on tile.  I'm planning to use to tile
    the walls up 4-5 feet all the way around.  I'm not sure if I should
    tile behind the vanities.  They have no back and I thought the tile
    would be easier to clean.  If I tile all around should I leave an
    opening between the tile to screw in the vanity or can I drill through
    the tile?   Should I bother to tile behind the vanities?
    	How are the ceramic toilet paper holder and soap dish holder 
    installed?  Do I just use tile cement and stick it to the wall or is 
    there a more permanent method?  
    	When tiling the floor how much clearance should I leave from
    the toilet pipe?  Is 1" OK?
    
    
    				=Ralph=
    

	Well, we have our new bathroom and I am very happy with it.

	I hired a contractor from Stow - John Aucoin.  He showed
	up every day and worked from 8:00 until 5:00 or 6:00.  He
	said it would take about a week to complete, but, he ended
	up waiting on the inspectors and couldn't go any further
	until they came in and checked out everything.  All the
	inspectors were happy with everything - no problems.

	I have one question and it's probably dumb - What do I do
	with the permit?  Is it mine to keep on file?

	- Linda

    Since the plumber got the plumbing permit I guess you are talking
    about the building permit.  That gets turned into the occupancy
    permit, which is sort of odd sounding on small jobs like a bathroom,
    but that's how they say to do it.  I guess you aren't aloud to flush
    until they say so.
    

Simply amazing...

I put in the 1/2 wall last week, securing it to the floor joists below and let
me tell you, that sucker is solid!

Only problem is now my wife has decided (as I keep telling her I'm only the
carpenter) to change things around and I've got to rip that thing off!  Actually
I'll just cut it off flush to the floor.  Now I've got to reinstall it 
elsewhere.

The real problem I've seen is with doing your own construction is there's too
much time to change your mind - although there are certainly benefits to this as
well.

-mark

    Mark
    
    	If you really have a problem with your wife, might I humbly
    suggest some techniques to preculde the type of carpentry your
    next project will be (aka tear it down,and start all over again)
    
    1) Draw a true plan to scale, floor plan and elevation and perspective
       if you can handle it (I can't)
    2) Get some big cardboard boxes and build a mock up to put in place
    3) Last but not least, tell her to do it herself; that you like
       it where it is (assuming you do)
    
    Alan
    
    PS For any of the female type DIYers out there substitute him, and
    husband where appropriate.

    
    Get her to SIGN THE SPEC, after a thorough review.  If she changes
    her mind after the spec review, she should have to pay for the cost
    overruns ($ to you or to a profesional, or perhaps "sweat equity").
    
    BTW, does she work here?  If not, she could have a future here ;-)
    

    My mother has had my father move a closet in their rec room 3 times
    including changing the door on said closet several times.
    When I asked my mom why she couldent make up her mind she said 
    "it is, your father needs something to keep him busy".
    
    -j
    

  If you're considering buying a one piece tub and shower unit for
  upgrading an already built bathroom - make sure you can get it in.
  I just finished putting in a 2 piece unit and it was tough to
  get it to the bathroom.  I wouldn't have wanted to try to get a
  one piece around the corners and up the stairs.

    A good dealer can provide you with the critical dimensions
    of the one-piece units. Thses will enable you to plan on how to
    best get the unit into the bathroom. In many cases, you will find
    the one-peice units CAN NOT be fit (no matter how hard you push)
    around the corners, up the stairs, and through the woods (8-))
    from your house's front or back door to the bathroom. That exactly
    why 2/3 peice units are made.
    
    When I looked at upgrading, I realized that I could get the 1-piece
    unit TO the door of the B-Room, but I would have to remove the
    ENTIRE DOOR and CASING to get it in to the room. I haven't done
    this yet.
    
    Like anything, PLAN AHEAD !
    
    M
    

The plot sickens!!!  Pauline changed her mind again and the 1/2 wall is going
back where it was in the first place...

-mark

    Mark,
    
    I think I see the problem here. It begins with a "P" and it isn't
    partition. :-) 
    
    
    
    Probably the best thing that you can do is to build that 1/2 wall
    partition as a free standing unit. That way you can move it around when
    ever PAULINE (there's that "P" word) changes her mind. 
    
    Charly

	The last inspection was yesterday!  We now have a legal 
	bathroom.  He signed the card and told me to keep
	it for my records, and he would put the number on file
	at the town building.    

	I'm glad I took out the permit - especially when the
	building inspector told me he appreciated it. 
	I have a feeling not too many people bother with permits
	in Maynard.
	
	Thanks to everyone for their suggestions and advice.  It
	helped me make the right decisions.

	- Linda

    	It has been quite a while since I've posted an update but things
    are progressing great.  The bathroom is all tiled and almost all
    wallpapered.  The tiling was not hard but took a great deal of time.
    I put down 50 ft� of random square floor tile and 200 ft� of wall
    tile.  The random square floor tile came in 2 ft sheets but was
    still a pain to keep the adhesive from squishing out between the
    little tiles.  The wall tile went up easy enough with a couple of
    complicated cut to make it interesting.  I bought a rod saw attachment
    for my hack saw which was great for cutting sections that a nipper
    just can't do.  The rod saw is a carbide covered wire that allows
    you just to saw into the tile.  It's slow but it works.  There were
    a couple of areas that I needed small strips of tile 1/4" wide.
    After going crazy trying to score and snap, I found a store with
    a wet saw and they cut them up for me.  The wet saw works great
    and made the job a lot easier.   It took about 25 hours to lay all
    the tile and about 3 hours to grout.  The total cost of the tile
    was about $600.  The wall tile was cheap, $1 ft�, but at a buck
    a piece, trim tile adds up quick.
    	Yesterday we wallpapered the room.  My wife was in charge so
    I just took orders.  As luck would have it we ran out of wall paper
    by about 6"!!!  We've got to order another $25 double roll for that
    one #$%^$# section.  All in all wallpapering was not that bad, but
    then again my wife did most of the work :^)
    	This Thursday the toilet gets hooked up and we're ready to flush.
    I couldn't find a 1.5 gallon toilet in out color so I got a Kohler
    extended bowl 3.5 gallon toilet.
    	The whole project should be wrapped up in a couple of weeks.
    Thanks for all your help and suggestions.   You all can come over
    and use the bathroom any time you are in the neighborhood :^)
    
    					=Ralph=

I know this is after the fact, but I was surprised on TOH this past week were
they did the entire floor with Wonderboard before tiling.  Isn't this a bit of
overkill?  Has anyone else done this before?

Also, I was interested in that membrane they used in the shower.  Too bad they
didn't talk about how one gets the tile to stick to it though...  Obviously you
cover the sidesi with wonderboard, but what about the bottom?

btw - I intentionally didn't put this in the TOH note because it seems that's
      only used to goofing on Norm & Bob (and it couln't happen to a better 
      pair)!

-mark

    I'm also adding a bathroom, as well as updating the adjacent kitchen.
    The bathroom is going in a former mud room.  Carpentry and electrical
    work are on separate contracts (I'm a DIY GC, not a DIY plumber!)
    The plumbing bid I just got went something like this:
    
    Install customer-supplied toilet, drain (12' or so to sewer pipe) 
    Install customer supplied sink
    Add copper feed pipes to sink, toilet
    Install shutoffs at sink and in basement (since mud room is electriclly
      heated, it'll be cold, so it gets shutoffs at the warm end.)
    Put hole in ceiling and install stinkpipe (someone else to fix).
	$2642
    
    Said plumber claimed that most additions of lavatories cost in that
    range.  The kitchen and laundry room work are another $1500 or so.
    But that's beyond this topic.  Question:  Does his bid sound in
    the ballpark?  We're talking near Boston.    
           fred

    
    You mean for $4000 you're not willing to learn/try DIY plumbing?!! 

    The only tough part would be the stack (AKA stinkpipe).  Is the
    current one cast iron or plastic?  If its plastic you're in luck.
    Otherwise dealing with cast iron can get hairy.  Then again, for
    $4000 you can probably replace the stackpipe with plastic!

    I haven't hired a plumber (now I know why!) so I couldn't help you
    on the reasonableness of the estimate.  But from a homeowner
    perspective it sounds absolutely outragerous.  Wish I could make
    $4000 in a week!!!
    
    Phil   Plumb-broke

    For the half bath you described, $1200 including parts is good
    for a price in the suburbs.  Add more for Boston, and subtract
    about $400 since you're supplying the appliances, but I think
    your estimate is $1000 too high.  I'd get a couple more
    estimates.
    The plumbing for your half bath is almost identical to what I
    hired a plumber to do for me.  Don't know about the laundry
    stuff though.

Sounds like a lot.  Three years ago I had my entire new house plumbed (a very 
complex job - post and beam construction is a nightmare to plumb), including
all fixtures, for about $6500.

Paul

    	I've just finished up my bathroom addition (see note 1586) and
    here is what I paid in plumbing:
    
    	run 2 vent pipes from cellar out roof (with roof patch)
    	run � in copper supply lines to my shower, sink and toilet
    	rough in drains
        install my laundry tub
    				Total = $800 not including faucets &
    					     pressure balance valve
    
    	Hook up my toilet, my sink, and shower
    				Total = $200
    
    		The pressure balance anti scald valve was $75
    		Delta sink faucet was $51
    
    	Total Plumbing bill $1125
    
    	My plumber was more than happy to pick up the toilet, sink and
    other fixtures as well as dispose of the trash, all at $40 hour.
    I could not legally DIY plumb in MA, but I picked up all the supplies,
    installed the sink cabinet, and had it all ready to go.
    	I designed my bathroom for easy plumbing.  It has one wet wall
    meaning all the drains and supply lines are along one wall.  If
    you have more than one wet wall the plumbing gets more complicated.
    
    				=Ralph=	               
    		

    Sounds high, I'd get some more estimates.   Also, DIY plumbing is
    a oxymoron in Mass (it's against the law, at the time of this writing).

    
    
      Maybe you should ask the plumber to kiss you and throw a little
    romance into the deal.  That estimate is at least 1200 too high.

    RE: .20

>    Sounds high, I'd get some more estimates.   Also, DIY plumbing is
>    a oxymoron in Mass (it's against the law, at the time of this writing).

    
    	Yeah, yeah, I know.  Just like driving over 55 mph, and having
    an open beverage can in the car...
    
    The government tries like hell to protect all us morons from ourselves
    when they should be trying to protect us from plumbers like this one!

    Phil
    
    P.S.  I'd never do my own plumbing... I call "3 guys plumbing".;-)

    My plumbing estimate was originally $400.00 to add the pipes for the
    sink, put a vent in (for sink) and fixtures for the shower.

    I paid for the sink, and shower unit myself, and we didn't need a 
    new toilet.

    But, my plumbing was not up to Mass. code, so the plumber had to 
    put all new plumbing in for the whole bathroom.  Even then it only
    came to a total of $600.00.   

	- Linda

  I bought a house recently and would like to get your help in doing
  the following:

  1.  The rotten drywall area (18 in x 18 in) behind the ceramic tiles
      above the bath tub in the bathroom has to be replaced.  I would
      like to take down these ceramic tiles piece by piece.  What kind
      of cutting tool I should use to separate the joints between two
      tiles?  If I cut out the rotten part of the drywall and fit a
      new piece of drywall into place, what kind of glue should I use
      to keep the new piece fit tightly with the existing drywall?

  2.  The ceramic sink (the one in the bathroom for you to wash your
      face and hands) is leaking.  I opened the cabinet under it and
      found the surface of the sink has one part rustted out with a 
      hole on it.  I wonder if it is easy to just replace the ceramic
      sink?  I notice that there are a couple of switches and pipes
      connected with the sink.

  I will appreciate any of your advise!


                                                 Pius

 

    
    I've taken down ceramic tiles by chiseling out the grout, then prying
    them from the wall.  But have someone help you, so that you don't
    drop and break them.  Don't replace the sheetrock with more sheetrock.
    Use cement board (Durock or Wonderboard) behind the tiles.
    
    This is explained in more detail in other notes.  Look in the
    directory 1111.* to help you find the related notes.
    
    -tm
    

	1.  The tiles are likely installed in the traditional way:
	    cemented to the wallboard, with grout filling between tiles.
	    It would be difficult to remove all the tiles without breaking
	    any.  And even if you succeeded, you'd have a pile of tiles
	    with gobs of dried cement on the back.  My advice: remove the
	    whole wall and fling the tiles.  Maybe some of them are
	    reusable, but you have to trade money for headache.

	    Alternatively, fling part of the wall, and install a piece
	    of wallboard with new tiles.  If you can't match the old
	    tiles, try a contrasting course to separate different tiles.

	    After you cut out the old drywall, you'll probably see studs to
	    which to nail a new piece. Use bathroom wallboard.  It's called
	    greenboard or blueboard, and is discussed in this conference.
	    See note 1111.

	2.  It is indeed "easy" to replace the sink, on the scale of measure
	    used by experienced home owners.  It is a giant pain in the
	    you-know-what if you're not psychologically prepared and willing
	    to spend time to do it right.

	    How can a ceramic sink rust?  Do you mean it's punctured
	    and stained with rust from the water?

	    When you say you "notice that there are a couple of switches
	    and pipes connected with the sink", you must be referring to
	    the expected water supply pipes and the drain.  But what do
	    you mean by "switches"?  Is it an electric sink?  Or do you
	    mean there are switches mounted on the sink cabinet (not a
	    good idea)?

	    Anyhow, visit your library and get a book on household
	    plumbing.  Or visit your nearby building supply place and
	    buy one for $3 - $6.  Ortho publishes a bunch.

	    I learned most of my plumbing by staring at pipes, toilets,
	    and sinks in my houses, and then staring at the displays
	    in the hardware stores.  If you tackle your bathroom sink
	    yourself, you can always use your kitchen sink for a couple
	    of weeks.

	
	Regards, Robert.

    Our bathroom had medium blue tiles. We took out our shower walls for
    the same reason you gave and replaced the medium blue -in the
    shower-with off white tile with pale speckled blue. Where the two tiles
    "meet" there is a course of 1" wide black. The same black is the
    outside course around the entire room. It looks fine!
    
    I still have the blue tiles stored in the cellar -it has been more
    than 10 years- but have never used them and probably never will
    for the reasons given in .2
    
    If you would like to see how the contrasting colors worked out,
    give a call. We live in Acton Ma.
    
    
    				herb 

    What we finally did, after years of fixing the wall around the tub
    by replacing parts of it with blueboard (only broke ONE tile in
    about three repairs, too - boy, what a job!) was to replace all
    the tiles with a tub enclosure - and I don't even have to clean
    mildew off the grout anymore!
    
    When we wallpapered the study, we found out where the blueboard
    that was supposed to be there according to the builder actually
    ended up - the wall of the room next to the bathroom turned out
    to be made of blueboard!  Sigh....if you want something done right,
    etc....

    Blueboard is for putting a plaster skimcoat on.  It's not what
    you want for backing up bathroom tile.  For that you want greenboard.
    Except personally I wouldn't use either one - I'd go with wonderboard,
    as suggested in .1 (?).  Even the allegedly "water resistent"
    greenboard can deteriorate if it gets too wet.
    
    Patching a part of the wall may work, but I strongly suspect you'll
    be doing the same thing for another part of the wall pretty soon.
    You can try the patch method, but don't be surprised if you end
    up replacing the whole wall in a couple of years.
    
    Or go with a tub enclosure, as done in .4; they work really well,
    and aren't too difficult to install.  Not as aesthetically pleasing
    as tile perhaps, but they are functional!

    	I spent last night going over the pile of receipts from this
    project.  I figured that someone might like a semi detailed breakdown
    of the costs.  If you're not interested just <next unseen>.  If
    you want more details just drop me a line.
    				       =Ralph=
    
    	PROJECT: Convert large bedroom to 6'x8' bath with stall shower,
    and 9'x10 bedroom with 4'x4' closet.
    
    	Total Costs $7500
    
    	Total labor 	400 hours me \
    			 80 my wife   - Free
    			 20 my dad   /
    
       		Plumber	 $450 rough plumb bath
    		         $350 replace cast iron waste line
    			 $100 add laundry tub in basement
                         $200 final hookup and toilet installation
                         -----
    			 $1100 labor and materials
    
    Materials:
    Dump pickup truck for disposal	        $100
    Building Permit				  15
    New water line				 320
    Sheet metal for FHA duct			  60
    2 Anderson windows				 270
    Insulation					  85
    14 sheets 1/2 rock				  75
    4 sheets of 3/8				  20
    9 sheets of greenboard			 100
    4 sheets of cement board			  75
    drywall screws				  28
    drywall screw gun				  80
    plywood subfloor &poly vapor barrier	  50
    pipe insulation				  22
    drywall tools and  3 joint comp		 130
    Roto roof window & supplies			 330
    bathroom door (brosco)			 243
    closet door 				  80
    3 recessed lights				  95
    vanity light strip				  45
    light vent fan				  60
    baseboard heat & wire supplies		 150
    sears laundry tub  (for basement)   	  50
    200 ft� wall tile and trim tile		 325
    50 ft� floor tile				 200
    tile adhesive and grout			 100                                    
    Kohler extended bowl toilet			 175
    2 Penny Pincher vanities			 422
    vanity top		   			 102
    sink vanity top				 170
    3' square shower base			 220
    medicine cabinet 1				 126
    medicine cabinet 2				 120
    glass shower door				 216
    delta faucet				  51
    towel bars & hooks				  45
    wall paper & paint (both rooms)		 200
    4 tubes caulk				  20
    moulding   					 260
    misc lumber 2x3's ect			 360
    misc supplies				 150                                             
                         			------
    					total  $6400
                                                      

     After reading all the replies so far, I think that I will throw away
     the old tiles.  I will take the advise to go for a wonderboard.  How
     to glue the wonderboard to the remaining wall? Are there any special
     treatments?  One thing I am afraid is that the rotten part is around
     the edge of tub and the tiles.  Does that mean that I have to smash
     the tub for a new one (tub enclosure)?  How much does itusually cost 
     to have someone do this job?

     RE: .2   The ceramic sink looks fine.  However, when I opened the
              cabinet underneath the sink, I saw like metal enclosure
              for the sink (maybe that enclosure is not part of the 
              ceramic sink?).  The rusted hole is on the metal enclosure.
              As to the switches I was referring to the water supply (hot
              and cold with a drain pipe does downward).  I feel this one
              may not be a hard job...

     RE: .3   I live in Farmington Hill, Michigan so that I could not
              have the feel of the contrast color.

     RE: .4 & .5

              The bathroom having the rotten wall problem is located
              at the end of the house.  I believe that the rotten wall
              is against the aluminum siding...

              Is tub enclosure hard to do?  How long does it take?


                                        Pius

     

         
     

    I didn't do the tub enclosure myself; I hired a carpenter to do
    it, since there is a window over the tub (dumb place for a window....)
    and I didn't want to fuss with cutting out around it.  The enclosure
    came in three pieces, the two tub ends, and a central piece which
    included an integral soapdish and which had to be cut for the window.
    There are lots of different tub enclosures, especially if you are
    going to redo the bathroom anyhow, but this one is a very simple
    sort.  it turned out to be a good thing that I hired someone to
    do the job, because my bathtub turns out not to have been installed
    perfectly flat, so the enclosure had to be fussily fitted to come
    flush against the wall at the foot of the tub.  The carpenter also
    re-installed the glass shower doors when the job was done.  It took
    him most of a Saturday afternoon (he only does carpentry evenings
    and weekends), but it would have been a lot faster if it hadn't
    been for the window and the problem with the tub not being perfectly
    flat.  I had sort of had my fill of messing around with repairing
    the bathroom walls, so the fourth time a piece of the wall went,
    I called a carpenter who had done similar small jobs for me before
    and got him to pick up the tub enclosure and materials to make the
    walls sound to support it and schedule the job as soon as
    possible - so the tub was only unusable for a couple of days.
    
    Maybe the plasterboard repairs in there were greenboard rather than
    blueboard - it has been a while, thank goodness, since I have had
    to fuss with fixing it.

    Follow up...
    
    Not wanting to pay $2600, I called another plumber who had installed
    a hot water heater for me previously.  He came out and bid the whole
    job (kitchen, bathroom, laundry area) for just under HALF the original
    bidder.  As of today (we took posession last week and have been
    feverishly working to get the kitchen ready for Sunday's move-in),
    the plumbing is largely done, and looks okay.  Not exactly as
    _artistic_ as the carpenter's work, but good enough.
    
    We're talking what, maybe 3 days' work?  For this a plumber gets
    $2-4k!  Not a bad racket.
            fred

    RE .24 Plumber costs
    
    	A brain surgeon returns from a long day at the hospital
    to find his kitchen sink overflowing.  He calls a plumber
    who spends � hour fixing the sink and then hands the brain
    surgeon a bill for $100.
    	The doctor is outraged and shouts:  I'm a brain surgeon 
    and even I don't get $100 for a � work!
    	The plumber replies:  Either did I when  *I* was a brain
    surgeon.
    

>        RE .24 Plumber costs

    I had a �bath put in for what I considered a good price.  
    It took him a total of 4 hours in labor to tap into the supply
    and waste lines, and install a sink and toilet.
    He made $200/hour.  

    
    
      I have to put my .02 in here.  I'm not against anyone earning
    a decent living, but some of these tradesmens' charges are getting
    way out of line.  Especially in Mass., where a DYI can't do simple
    plumbing or electrical work (even if inspected and approved) in
    thier own homes.  And then when these butchers (not all of them
    are) get finished, you know you could have done a better job.  Not
    only that, see how much leeway they have in attaching liens, etc.
    
      I bought a new condo, and had the builder send the plumber back
    three times to move the water heater.  First, it was inside where
    the half bath woud be, second time it was up against the main stack
    so you couldn't use the cleanout for the sink drain, third time
    he put it up against the furnace so you couldn't get to the main
    water shut off.  SO, I moved it my self (and the furnace, too, so
    that the space is utilized properly and you can get at everything)
    and sent a bill to the builder, which he paid.  He didn't pay the
    plumber.  The plumber put a lien on my unit, later removed because
    I didn't owe the plumber money.  AND I woudn't have known about
    the lien unless a friend in the court house saw it and told me!

  Re: >>                  Especially in Mass., where a DYI can't do simple
      >>plumbing or electrical work (even if inspected and approved) in
      >>thier own homes.  


  Correction. You are legally allowed to do your own electrical work in Mass.
However, some towns/cities do not allow you to do this.  In fact, I just got 
another electrical permit yesterday.

-Jim

    I also have had the tile problem described before and after several
    attempts at fixing the problem we finally gave up and put up a
    3 piece fiberglass enclosue.  We have never regretted doing that
    and I personally never want any tile around a tub again.

    Me, too, Ed!
    
    Not only will I not have to fix the rotten plasterboard anymore,
    but I THREW OUT the old toothbrush we used to use to scrub the mildew
    off the grout between the old tiles!!

As some of you may have noted elsewhere in this file, I replaced some 
of my windows.  One is IN a shower, and is framed in wood, with 
clamshell as the outer frame.  The contractor recommended epoxy-based 
paint for this wood frame.  good idea!.  Some questions:

1) Should I put a primer under the epoxy - oil or latex based (I prefer 
   to work with latex)  should the surface be pre-treated in any other 
   way?

2) Is Sears a good place to shop for tinted paint, or elsewhere?  (I 
   need a medium-bright off-white, about 1/2 way to eggshell)

3) Any special type (mix, etc) of epoxy paint I should use?

thanx/j

Does anyone have experience with Moore's alkyd-based pre-mixed epoxy
paint - am using it (over a primer) to paint wood window frame inside
a shower - should this be as good as the 2-part epoxies? 

    I have a bathroom with ceramic tile walls that are about 5 feet
    high.  I would like to install a mirror that will be the width of
    the vanity and will go from the vanity to almost the ceiling.  Sounds
    simple.  
    
    The problem I have is that above the vanity and bellow
    the medicine cabinet (it will be removed) I have a ceramic soap
    holder and a ceramic tooth brush/cup holder.  Both are attached
    to the ceramic tile, I think?  How do I get them off?  Are they
    usually attached to the tile or are they set in instead of a tile?
    Can anyone help with ideas?
   
    Thanks,
    
    David 

    Re .0
    
    It probably depends on how long ago they were installed.  Our house
    was built in the late 50's and recently we gutted the master bath
    and remodeled it.  All the fixtures (toilet paper dispenser, soap
    dishes, etc.) were recessed into the wall and held on with giant
    gobs of plaster.  According to the tile installer we used "now days"
    they're all surface mount (ie: the thickness of a tile).  So, if
    your house is 30 years old or so they probably were installed in
    a similar fashion.  (We've finally learned to plan on the worst
    since with all the surprises of an older home there's no such thing
    as a quick job.)
    
    ep

    Ceramic fixtures are *instead of* the tile.   They are usually attached
    to the backer board with a mixture of grout and "glue".   Trying to
    remove one will probably destroy the backer board.   You could take
    a hammer and chisel and crack it away, especially if you're going
    to cover the hole with a mirror, but this could end up in cracking
    other tiles too.   If the backer board is just sheetrock or greenboard,
    you're inviting disaster.   If the backer is a cement board (like
    Wonderboard) you stand a better chance.
    
    Have I talked you out of this yet?   I didn't mean to, if you really
    want to remove the fixtures, but you must be very careful and recognize
    that you might break an area larger than you originally intended.

    	I successfully chipped out two tiles and replaced it with a
    toilet paper holder.  I was in such a hurry to tile the room 
    that I forgot to put the TP  holder in!  I took a screwdriver,  
    placed the blade in the middle of the tile I wanted to remove, 
    and gave it a whack with the hammer.  I then was able to chip 
    out the two tiles.
    	Cup and TP holders are sometimes put on with plaster making
    them tougher to get out.  Do you have any spare tile the same color
    as the ones that you are trying to remove?  If you've got some spares
    I'd attempt to remove the cup holder.  That way if you accidentally
    break one you've got some to replace them with.      
    
    					=Ralph=

	(with half a box of spare tile stored in the attic for future
    	 generations)

    Let me have your address and I'll send my 4- and 7-year-old boys
    over for an evening.  They're both adept at removing these things.
    
    Pete

This reminds me.....

We re-did the upstairs bathroom.  I got the whole thing stripped to
the glue except for the fixtures.  I naturally thought these were
glued on, so I started chiseling at the base, all the way around it. 

It finally loosened, and I hammered harder.  All of a sudden, the wall 
gives way, I fly backwards across the bathroom uttering explictives.

My husband and another couple who was helping us come running.  I'm
sitting on the floor on the other side of the bathroom, holding the
toilet paper holder, laughing hysterically.  It was set into the
plaster walls, with gobs of plaster behind it. It must have left an 
8 X 12" hole.  The cup and soap dishes were the same, but smaller. 

Needless to say, we replaced with glue on.

    
    
    
    rep .4  Thanks for the laugh, my stomache is still aching.
    
    BAL
    

Well, I did it, painted a bathroom window and kitchen window sill with B.
Moore Alykd pre-mix epoxy.  Followed the directions exactly. Came out
great, except.......... 

Sitting bottles on kitchen window sill + reasonable amount of sunlight on
		                                           windowsill

	= depressions in windowsill where bottle bottoms previously were.


Warming the sill with a hair dryer softens the epoxy again, and said 
depressions can be diminished somewhat.  The paint seems like a rubber-like
coating not attached to the sill.  When you warm it, you can 'move it
around' with your finger. 

This sill isn't going to look too good too long this way.  Before I 
give up and glue down a formica top over it (if I can glue to it 
without stripping it first) does anyone have any ideas about how to 
stabilize the epoxy?

I am looking for suggestions as to floor plan of a new bathroom I am
    planning to start next month. It will be on the first floor of my
    house which has a cement floor- so any placement should be based
    upon asthetics rather than "where the plumbing is now"... The floor
    will need to be cut and the copper will have to be added.
    
    The area is about 12 X 9.5 feet. It has a washer/dryer hookup on
    the right hand wall. The door (top of diagram) leads to the BACK
    of house.
    
    
    Any suggestions? I would like to add (at minimum) a toilet, BIG
    sink, and shower and/or tub. Placement in this area will make all
    the difference in the world I think.
    
    Any hints?
    
    mark
    
    
              +-----------------+ DOOR +--------+
              |                                 |
              |                                 |
              |                             ^   |
              |                             |   |
              |                                 [ Washer/Dryer ]
              |                           9-1/2 [ Hookup       ]
              |                                 |
 +------------+                             |   |
 |                                          v   |
 |                                              |
 |                                              |
 |                                              |
 +-+ DOOR +-------------------------------------+
                 
              |        <-- 12 -->               |

    
    	Placement of the fixtures will largely depend upon your local
    plumbing and building codes.  Before you settle on anything definite
    or start to plan something that will not be passed, find out what
    those codes are first.  Usually, toilets must be within 4' of the
    stack, and other sinks etc, have to be a certain distance also.

    Since there is NO plumbing in the area already and since I have
    to CUT through the cement floor to add all 2" and 3" pipes and the
    associated vent pipes top the roof, I think I have an OPEN TICKET
    on placement.
    
    Yes?
    
    Mark

    With hindsight, since nobody else has responded, I regret not
    replying sooner.
    I didn't thing that the pre-mix was PROBABLY nearly as good, but
    have no facts to back it up.
    I suggest you strip it off -with 5f5 say- and do it with the 2-part
    stuff. 
    
    Problem is that you will have a LOT left over after doing
    only one window. (as the can will say, only mix the amt you can
    use in 4(?) hours). You might consider a suggestion I read in a book
    for keeping the remainder in good shape. Put small stones into the
    two cans until the point that the "liquid" goes up to the top of
    the can. Another possibility that I have used successfully with
    Formby's varish is to squeeze enuf air out of the -in this case-
    plastic container to get the liquid to the top.

    
    
    				good luck
    				herb
    
    p.s. keep us informed

    Thanks for all the info.  Based on all your comments I have to go
    to plan B which is to mount my mirror above the soap dish and tooth
    brush holder.
    
    Again thanks for the help.
    
    David Valenta

    
    	No not really.  The only way you could consider having an open
    ticket is if you intend to supply a separate vent pipe for each
    appliance or utility you install.  If your intent is just one
    vent pipe, then the placement of all the units will be determined
    by their required distance from that vent pipe, and since you al-
    ready show a washer hookup on the plan, you would probably be lim-
    ited to that area unless that hookup were moved.

Thanx Herb, but its going to have to get a lot worse than just
indentations before I take on that kind of nasty, fumey job.  I may
just ignore the problem and see how bad it gets... 

If I ever do redo it, will let you know.	/j 

    The subfloor of my bathroom is 1x4 T&G on diagonal with ~2" of concrete
    over that.  The tile is the small 1 inch squares.  
    
    It seems that if you made the toilet the high spot (.re -1) and had it
    slope away from all walls, tub, vand vanity towards the drain and used
    small tiles that it could be done.  This is a common practice in
    restaurants in the kitchen areas to make it easier for clean up.
    The restaurants I worked in, we just hosed down everything from the
    tabletops to the walls and just squeeged all water to the drain.

    Would a balloon in the can work to displace air and help prolongs
    the life of the contents or would the stuff eat the rubber?
    
    -Bob

    re -1
    that's a clever thought!
    My guess is that the "stuff would eat the rubber"

    My house was built in 1955 and has what sounds like a similar setup.
    I have tile up the walls about 4 ft.  In the wall are the soap dish,
    toothpaste, and tp holder.  When I bought the house, the toothbrush
    holder was broken off.  Well after much shopping around for a matching
    toothbrush and soapdish holder I finally found a pair.
    
    One of the most fun and satisfying things I have done on the house
    was taking a hammer to the old toothbrush and soapdish.  They had
    been set into the wall just like the tile.  I broke off the shelf
    part of the fixture and then took a cold chisel to the remainder.
    I have cement on top of metal lathe.  I chiseled out the fixture
    down to the cement.  Went to Color Tile, against my wishes, and
    got some glue and glued the new matching fixtures to the wall.

    
    	I'm am considering putting a pedestal sink in new bathroom.
     My husband and I are building a small (20x24) log cabin in the
     White Mountains, and want to save as much space as possible in
     the bathroom.  A sink in a cabinet seems like it would take up
     lots of space, so I was considering putting in a pedestal sink.
     	
    	Last week on This Old House, they showed a corner pedestal.
     My question is do you have any problems with the unit, like water
     over the edge?
    
    	Haven't made my purchase yet, but I need to make up my mind.
    
    	Thanks, Linda 

>< Note 2919.0 by WMOIS::L_WATERMAN >
>                               -< PEDESTAL SINK >-

I just finished off a second 1/2 bath working with limited floor space and
went the pedestal route. I'm happy with the setup, big sink and clean look.
Being a guest bath, it doesn't get much use though!

Ross

    
     I've installed pedestal sinks for myself and a friend. I've never
    installed a corner unit but have looked at them. You shouldn't
    have any different of a water problem as you would with a standard
    pedestal. Unless you go crazy with the water you should be OK, and
    if you add too much water to the sink the overflow will stop it
    from coming to the top. You can also add vinyl wallpaper in
    the room which will also cut down on water on the plaster etc.
    Go for it ! It'll look great !!
    
    
    

    I replaced an old, cracked pedestal sink with a new one about 12
    years ago and have been very satisfied with its appearance and
    performance.  The only drawback is lack of counter space, but this
    can be countered (to make a poor pun) with shelves, soap and toothbrush
    holders, and other hanging space savers.  
    
    Btw, the old one is out in the barn.  It will be refinished and
    installed in another bathroom one of these days.  Hum, wonder if
    there's a note on refinishing plumbing fixtures.
    
    	Marlene
    	Who_grew_up_in_an_old_house_with_a_pedestal_sink
    

    I hope to replace my 30+ year old wall-hung sink with a pedestal.
    
    Could anyone tell me if the bottom of these units is generally open
    or closed? My drain and water pipes come through the floor. If the
    bottom of the pedal is open I should hopefully be able to cover
    them; if it's closed, then I can't use it without (having someone)
    re-routing the pipes.
    
    In case I've been ambiguous, an 'open' bottom would have a horseshoe
    shaped footprint caused by the open back.
    
        Open Footprint    ___       ___
                          | |       | |
                          \ \      / /
                           \ ------ /      (I'm no artist!)
                            \______/                       
    
        Closed Footprint:  ____________
                           |          |
                           \         /
                            \       /
                             \_____/
                         
    Thanks,
    
    Edd

re:-.1    -< Footprint? >-


The one I installed in my bathroom when I built my house was an open
footprint.  Purchased at my local Grossout's.....

-gary

    My upstairs bathroom has a  3-piece standup shower.  The floor in
    front of the shower is soft.  I tore the vinyl floor away from the
    front of the shower and found very wet and soft 3/4" plywood.  I
    cut the 3/4" plywood out of that area and found very wet and soft
    3/4" wood floor planking.  The wet area goes under the shower.
    Also, when I was bending the nails over with a hammer on the plywood 
    pieces removed, those nasty darn carpenter ants started coming out
    of the 3/4" plywood, I yelled down stairs to my wife to open the
    front door and I ran down the stairs and threw the pieces out in
    the yard.  Then I went back up and squashed as many ants  as I could
    see.            
    
    Help, suggestions, and questions...
    
    I plan to do the following...
    
    Remove the lower section of the shower so I can inspect/repair the
    wood floor underneath, this is going to be a b%tch of a job.
    Any tips on doing this.  Looks like I have to remove the caulking
    between the lower and mid section of the shower, remove the wall
    tiles that appear to be in the path of the removal.  Disconnect
    the drain, somehow ???.  Then pull the lower section out and brace
    the mid section so it does not fall down.  Anyone ever done this,
    I haven't.
    
    Remove all the vinyl flooring in the bathroom to find other wet
    areas.  The vinyl is over 3/4 plywood.  Any suggestions on easy
    methods to do this?
    
    Remove and replace all bad/wet plywood and planking.
    
    Should I get an exterminator for the ants, or will they disappear
    after all the wet wood is gone (if I can get to all the wet wood)?
        
    Any tips on how to prevent this from happening again, the shower
    door area has water leaking out under the door, this is the area
    of most damage that I can see.  I may put tile in front of the
    shower or the entire bathroom.  Any type of splashing I could put
    in front of the shower???
    
    Any comments or suggestions will be helpful.  
    Thanks, Mark. 
    
    other info...  The house is 25 years old, we have been there almost
    1 year.  This is the upstairs bathroom of our cape.
	    
    

    Deja Vu!
    
    Being in the final third of just such a project (wet rot & ants)
    I'm afraid the news is probably less than encouraging.
    
    I had a soft spot near my tub. Maybe 4" X 6". No major deal, right?
    HA! $1500 later I'm not even close to being done. 
    
    The only advise I can offer is to resign yourself to a major retro-fit.
    Rip up all the vinyl. Remove the entire shower. Plan on new fixtures.
    Plan on all kinds of things being outta square.
    
    Maybe we can speak off-line...
    
    Good luck!
    
    Edd

I, too, had a similar problem (no ants, tho).  And I, too, had to pull the
floor boards (small bathroom, tho) and even play with floor joists.
Sounds like there's no other way.  :-(

    RE: .0 ... the ants 
    
    According to what the exterminator told me... CALL ONE ! 
    
    If you disturb the ants, they just pick up and move to a new location,
    within in minutes (literally). Even if you eliminate the wetness
    completely they'll find another place that's a little damp, or has
    a pipe with condensation, etc. 

    You're best bet is to have a professional come in and inspect/treat
    the house as necessary. The cost is cheap ($ 100. to $200.) compared
    to the $ amount of damage they can do. 

    Re: deja vu
    
    It may only help a little, but as I started my project I naturally
    talked to as many folks as I could. Surprisingly (to me) this is
    not an uncommon project. It seems many of the house built 25-30
    years ago have reached the end of the bathroom's usable life.
    
    The most common reaction I got was "Yeah, we had to do that..."
    followed by a low moan...
    
    Edd

    RE: 0
    
    You said that this was going to go into a log cabin.  Is there going
    to be a freezing factor with this?  If you use a cabinet w/ insulation
    you won't have as much of a freezing problem. I just thought I would
    bring up that point in case you hadn't thought of the COLD FACTOR.
    
    Regards, and good luck
    
    Patrick

    Well, I'll keep you posted on my progress.
    
    I plan to remove the shower and then call the exterminator.
    
    We are using the downstairs shower now, and guess what...
    It is leaking into the basement!  I need to sealup the soap
    holder which is where the major leak seems to be and then figure
    out where the front leak is coming from in the bathtub.
    
    Just trying to keep our heads above the water day by day...
    
    Mark

    Renovators Supply sells pedestal sinks where the pipes are inclosed in
    a center or wall pedestal. It doesn't look like the ones from the 50's
    with a standing leg in each corner. In fact, their sinks look really
    neat, since the sink and pedestal are molded (and it looks like the
    sink section is done using a material similar to corian).
    Depending upon where you are located, you should drop into a Renovators
    Supply or ask them for a catalog.
    		Cindy
    

    Buying the pedastal sink is close to the last phase in my bathroom
    rehab.                                                   
    
    Naive little me went to my local Grossman's to get a price on the
    Kohler "Chablis" model. I almost died....we're talking in the $600
    ballpark!! ...and luckily, the one I like was one of the simpler,
    less expensive models. I could easily spend twice that figure....
    
    Can anyone recommend a (cheaper) Kohler dealer in the Worcester
    area?                                                            
    
    Edd

    
    
    	RE .7
    	Where is Renovators Supply located.  I live in Westminster,
    Mass and I don't mind a little drive.  Or is there on located in
    New Hampshire, since that is where the camp is located.  No sales
    tax and less transporation of the unit.  
    
    	I am looking for something in the $100-200 range.
    
    	Thanks everyone for your inputs.   Linda

       Renovator's is in Miller's Falls, out rte 2, I believe.
    Grossman's has a pedestal on sale for $69.
                                                 Denny

>
>    Renovators Supply sells pedestal sinks where the pipes are inclosed in
>    a center or wall pedestal. It doesn't look like the ones from the 50's
>    with a standing leg in each corner. In fact, their sinks look really


Even an inexpensive pedestal sink can be installed with the pipes hidden
from view. I installed my $60 sink in this manner. 
Renovators Supply has some "expensive" reproduction sinks, but they're a 
little too ornate for my taste.


Ross

    To answer my own .8, I was able to order the same Kohler sink from
    Chandler St. Plumbing in Worcester for $100 less than Grossman's
    "Guaranteed Lowest Price"....
    
    Edd

    re. 3  refinishing fixtures
    
    Note 465 discusses refinishing fixtures.  Reply 465.17 references a
    magazine article listing sources of companies which do the refinishing
    and an article about the different processes and their advantages
    - disadvantages. 

I'm looking for a repair kit for a one piece fiberglas tub.  There is a small
crack in the corner where the side wall turns and becomes the 'ledge'.  Anyone
know if there is a special tub/crack repair kit available?  I imagine it's
similar to the automobile fiberglas repair kits, complete with mesh tape and
messy compound goop, but because it's a finished tub, I'd need a nice glossy
finish coat.

While I'm here, the ceramic (probably not porcelain) bathroom sink has a
hairline crack starting at the drain and running up the side of the sink.
Is there another sort of repair kit available for this?  I've read the notes
on hairline cracks in toilet tanks, but this is more delicate because
it's a finished surface.  Silicone isn't the answer here.

Thanks for any help
- Chris

Dealing with fiberglass cracks is already here - see note 2748.  But dealing 
with ceramic sink cracks is not - go ahead and continue that discussion here.

Paul

In both cases you should be able to get one on the tub refinishing places to do
the repair and match the color/surface finish. Especially since you voiced your
opinion of the glop to be used. There is a discussion in here somewhere of these
types of services.

    Ok, there have been suggestions of putting an anti mildew additive
    in the paint and using exterior paint to avoid the mildew.  What
    is better?  Would it be better yet to go with exterior and add the
    anti mildew stuff to it?  Some of the notes dealing with mildew
    go back 4 years so you people that ask the questions how did you
    fix the mildew problem and how long did it last.  Yes, I have a
    ceiling fan but maybe I need to up the CFMs.

re < Note 1592.24 by HPSCAD::FORTMILLER "Ed Fortmiller, MRO1-3, 297-4160" >
                      -< Anti Mildew, Exterior, or What? >-


    I asked somebody in Somerville Lumber about this and he said that the
anti mold/mildew additive is used for outside applications only, because
the stuff stinks.  FWIW

Steve


BTW, I just put in a bathroom fan/light combo this weekend, hopefully the mold
problem will go away.  I painted the ceiling with latex semigloss 
interior enamel, thinking that if mold does come back, it will be easier
to clean off a glossy surface as opposed to a flat surface.

The fan is rated for 70 cfm.  They had one rated at 50 also.  Also available
was a fan (no light) at 110 cfm.   Hopefully 70 will do the trick.

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 3096.0               Building a Neo-Angle shower?                   1 reply
MUSKIE::HEYMANS                                       4 lines  14-MAR-1989 18:39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I am in the process of building a Neo-Angle shower and was wondering
    based on other notes about the use of epoxy paint could I get by
    with buying a shower base, build the walls with sheetrock, then
    paint them with epoxy?  
    

    Interesting idea!
    
    I would have two concerns.
    1) How well would epoxy adhere to sheetrock
    2) If epoxy does seal sheetrock effectively would it also be adequate
    protection against the kind of "nicks" that either fibreglass or
    ceramic tile would be impervious to. 
    A ceiling is not going to have soap dishes, razors, 15oz shampoo
    containers, or elbows hitting it!
    
    Any other thoughts on this?
    
    
    				herb

    For another point of view, I recently installe a Neo Angle shower
    kit made by Kincaid.  It was about $460 for the base, interior
    fiberglass walls, 2 outside glass walls, and a glass door.   
    
            Fiberglass
         _____________
    	|             |
    	|Glass	      |
    	|             |Fiberglass
    	\	      |
    	 \ Door	      |
    	  \ 	      |
    	   \__________|
               Glass
                                                               
    It was very easy to install, and I can highly recommend it as a
    comfortable, watertight shower enclosure.  I would agree with the
    previous reply about nicks, dents and overall waterproofing of epoxy
    paint on wall board.  
    
    The fiberglass walls of the Kincaid kit came in a separate box and
    might be available to buy separately.  
    
    Bob
    

    
    Re: .23
    
    I believe the name of the manufacturer is "Kinkhead" rather than
    "Kincaid", but it is pronounced the way you spelled it.
    
    Re: .22
           
    You could go with the sheet rock, but I'm not sure that would be a
    good idea, considering the permeability and softness of sheet
    rock. I would think that it might eventually chip or crack.
    Personally, I think the fiberglass walls look nice, are easy to
    clean and are pretty inexpensive, so I wouldn't do it. 
    
    Another option with shower walls, is using vinyl flooring.  I've
    seen some ceramic-tile-look vinyl used in a shower and it looked
    great.  But this is not as easy as using the fiberglass panels.
    
    -tm 
    

    OK I'm convinced that epoxy paint over sheetrock might not be a
    good idea because sheetrock isn't sturdy enough.  Does anyone with
    epoxy paint experience think that you could use marine plywood for
    the Neo-Angle shower walls then paint the plywood with epoxy?
    
    Just trying to save a buck.
    
    jerry

    Does anyone know of something that would cover up the cast iron
    showing through the ceramic finish?  It is an almond color and
    there are two marks about the width on a pencil line and 1/2 inch
    long on two of the curves.  It looks like there wasn't quite enough
    enamel applied.
    
    Bonnie

    They sell touch up paint in small bottles that look like fingernail
    polish.  (Very similar to the paint touch up bottles available for
    scratches in automobile paint.)  Check with an appliance store.
    This stuff is best used for chips in the finish.
    
    If sounds like you have a thin coat of enamel.  You could apply another
    coat of enamel like the notes on refinishing enamel tubs suggests but
    that is probably not cost effective.  The touch up paint will probably
    look like touch up. 
    
    Sorry, hate to be the bearer of bad news but the reason the sinks are
    on sale is probably because there is no cost effective way to fix the
    problem without a complete re-paint. 

    Quite a few years ago, I bought some vinyl sheet flooring on sale
    and glued it over sheetrock to make a shower.  I know it worked
    for at least 10 years.
    

In a plumbing book I bought there was an example of the plumbing
configuration for a bathroom with shower using 1.5" drain pipe  going to 
the stack. I was planning (see bought,cut but not glued yet) to use 1.5" 
for the shower I am putting (oops having put) in the basement. I happened 
to notice the other day in the book that an example of a basement shower 
was given in a later section and 2" drain pipe was used.
Since all the "normal" venting requirements still apply, does anyone know 
why the requirement for 2" in basement showers?

It also indicated that all basement connections needed to be "wyes" and
not "tees". Does anyone know why? Easier flow?

Dave,who's_evil_twin_does_the_plumbing

    (Moderator: Could't find needed information under key/bathroom
    remodeling or "drain"......pls redirect if I missed something.)
    
    I'm beginning a total remodeling of our masterbath and have
    gutted the floor and walls to the joists and studs.  I need to\
    cut and move some of the water supply pipes......my question is
    how do I drain the pipes before cutting and capping/sweating.
    
    I have one "main" water shutoff where the watermain enters the
    house in the basement......no other secondary shutoffs to shut
    down just the second floor.
    
    There is an outside water spigot above the main water valve,
    if close the main valve and open this outside spigot AND open
    the faucets in the upstairs bath........will the water drain 
    "down" to the open outside spiggot.  I want to be sure I've drained
    these pipes so I don't end up "flooding the dowstairs ceiling
    when I cut and stubb off the pipes.
    
    Also, do I need to shut off the gas/hot water tank so as not to
    burn it out with the water shut off.....is this a potential problem??
    
    Diagram of water supply is:               
      						 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx upstairs
                                                 x                  bath
                                                 x  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx fixtures
                                                 x  x
                                                 x  x
                                                 x  x
                                            Hot  x  xCold Water
                                           Water x  x
                                                 x  x
                                                 x  x
                                                 x  x
                                                 x  x
                                                 x  x
               xxxxxxxxxxxxxx[ main filter] xxxxxxxxx
               x
               x
               x
    outside  xxx
    spigot    x
               x
               x
  XXXXXXXX xxxxx Main House
  Water          Water Shut-off
  Main  
                                                      
    
    
    I've simplified this alot by eleiminating the first floor kitchen
    and bath.......but this is the general idea.
               
    
    Jonathan

    Jon,
    
    That spigot at the main shut off should do the trick about draining
    the upper (and lower) pipes.
    
    I haven't had any bad experiences with the water heater to make
    a judgement on having it on/off.
    
    Good Luck.
    
    Patrick

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
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note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
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We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
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continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    If you drain your hot water heater MAKE SURE it is turned off.(first!)
    Otherwise you will end up replacing the elements. It takes no time
    at all for them to burn out if there is no water in the tank.
                                                                          
    (mrs electrician)
    
    Lynn
    
    

    What you suggested should do the job for you. The draining sequence
    is, to first shut off the main supply in your basement - open the
    spigot outside and open all of the taps above the point where you
    want to do the plumbing. When the water stop draining outside you
    can do your plumbing above this point.
    
    Some things that could give you headaches: 1. Your main valve may not
    work perfectly and some water may trickle through - leave the outside
    spigot open to drain off any that may leak through. 2. You may have
    some jogs in the plumbing that will not permit it to totally drain,
    such as a |_| (U) bend where the water may sit; this is a problem only
    if it is in the vicinity (say 6-8 inches) of where you want to work. 
    Regardless, use some kind of catch basin when you open the pipes.
    
    Leave your tank full of water if it is below the point where you
    are working, otherwise shut off the outlet - it should not overheat
    if your high temp thermostat is working.
        Bernie M.

    My initial reaction to this estimate is that it's outrageous, but
    it's been a while since I've hired a plumber, so I need a cross-check:
    
    	In a second floor bath off master bedroom,
    
    	Remove existing shower stall (fiberglass, starting to crack)
    	Remove existing toilet
    	Cut back sheetrock & wood trim to accommodate new, larger,
    		4-piece Owens Corning high-pressure molded stall
        Install pressure balanced anti-scald valve
    	Install new shower stall
    	Install new top line Kohler toilet, 2.5 gal flush
    	Tape & fill all seams, prep for paint/wallpaper
    	Move shower head and drain locations to match new stall
    	Install shower stall door
    
    	By a plumber with an excellent reputation for high quality work,
        with him providing all the parts & materials
    
    	$3000.
    
    Anybody got a benchmark to beat this against?
    
    pbm

    re .29:

	How much do the fixtures cost?

    Personally, after just spending more time than I care to remember
    re-doing my bath, (fixtures, walls, floor, subfloor), I'd jump
    at that price...
    
    Edd

    I'm in the process of remodeling my master bath now and would agree
    that this is a decent price. I figure that you've got close to $1000
    in materials at plumbers prices (not Spags prices for shower stall
    or fixtures.  At $50+/hr (plumber + helper) ........your estimate
    equates to 40 hrs labor which is on the generous side.....I would think
    this sort of job could be completed in 2 -2 1/2 days.

    Re .30 etc
    
    Fixtures are about $1000.  Other input I've gotten also indicates
    that this price is maybe a little high, but it would cover anything
    unexpected  that crops up when the old stall is ripped out. Thanks
    for the input.
    
    pbm
    

    Here in NJ we had a bathroom COMPLETELY redone.  I ripped it all
    (everything) out to the studs and did the insulation, wiring and the
    door/window trimming and painting.
    
    A carpenter/plumber/tile guy and his helper did the following:
    
    	construction of new tub area (wonderboard)
    
    	new tub lines
    
    	new sink lines
    
    	complete new tile floor (concrete, then thinset, then tile)
    
    	tile of tub enclosure - including ceiling
    
    	re-route of heat duct (fha)
    
    	installation of ceiling fan (also one for downstairs bath)
    
    	installation of new tub, controls, shower head, sink, vanity,
    	toilet (plus new toilet and pedestal sink in downstairs bath)
    
    	all fixtures were American Standard in colors and new faucets
    	and mixture valve (with temperature guard)
    
    	new wallboard, (including ceiling) all seams done

    Took them 7 - 10 working days and the price, including all fixtures
    and supplies, was about $6,000 (cash).
    
    	-Barry-
    

    Though this note hasn't been active for a while, I won't risk starting
    another.....
    
    I'm in the process of remodeling our bath, and the plumber is due
    any time.  I'm doing _everything_ except the plumbing.  (Once was
    enough).
    
    Anyway, when I put up the new wallboard, I was thinking of using
    some left-over oak wainscotting that I have from the kitchen.  It
    would be about 30" high, and I'd put up a chair-rail.  I've seen
    it in a couple of baths before, and I think it looks sharp.  (Of
    course, these were _large_ baths w/jacuzzis, and no children).
    
    The question (and I realize it's a matter of preference):  Am I
    asking for trouble for stained wood in a bathroom?  I plan on using
    a water-seal, etc., but will the wood eventually become wet and
    destroy the wallboard, etc?  Any horror stories?
    
    (The bath has a vented fan, the wood won't be _in_ the shower (tub
    surround), but we do have a 13 month old terror, with another due
    in Jan.  Will they reek havoc on the wood with water?)
    

>Am I asking for trouble for stained wood in a bathroom?  I plan on using a
>water-seal, etc., but will the wood eventually become wet and destroy the
>wallboard, etc?  Any horror stories?

     I've seen 50 year old bathrooms with original vertical wood strips
that are in fine shape.  So yes, it can be done.  Somebody else will be
able to say exactly what precautions you have to take.

    I painted a smallll half bath ceiling about 2 months ago and it
    is now peeling.  It was peeling befor I painted it so I scrape off
    all the chips and washed the ceiling down. The paint did not come
    off when I washed it so I doubt it was calcimine.   I then painted 
    with a flat laytex as I did in the rest of the house (full bath 
    included).  One thought I had was that we keep the window closed
    to thwart would be house robbers from entering when no one is home.
    With all the humidity I figure this is the reason?? Does it sound
    possible?  Could it be something else. How do I get paint to stick?
    Do I need to use and oil based paint?  Help bail me out, the 
    boss (wife) isn't very happy!

    Time to reactivate this note...
    
    The plumber's just finished his work in the bathroom and I'm now
    finishing up.  After a complete remodel, the new tub/shower is in
    front of a window, due to space/area limitations.  The tub surround
    has been cut for the window.  I had planned on using plenty of
    polyurethane on the window trim along with a fiberglass window kit,
    (a fiberglass sill, designed to keep water off the sill).
    
    However, the sill is to small for the old window that's there. 
    How can I keep the window sealed/waterproofed, yet still be able
    to use it?  I can't reduce the size of the window as it's on a shed
    dormer, and I'd like to keep the old window look.  Naturally, I'd
    like to keep expense at a minimum, also.
    
    How about an "interior greenhouse window"? ( a Plexiglass bubble
    over the existing window), or something like a plexiglass shutter,
    or for that matter, a plastic shutter?  I plan on using a cut-down
    shower curtain as "drapes", yet my wife still likes the idea of
    being able to see outside.  (A closet exhibitionist!!)
    
    Any ideas would be appreciated.  Thanx.
    

    
    
    How about an indoor plexiglass storm window ? I forget who makes them,
    but you might be able to make one up yourself. 
    
      What you do is put a magnetic strip all around the window casing.
    Then put a magnetic strip all around the outer portion of a piece
    of plexiglass. Magnet to magnet and you have a seal. Its also
    water proof, cleanable, see out-able for your wife, but yet still
    removable so you can open the window.
    
    
    Good luck..

    My bathtub has a window, too - without any remodelling on my part; some
    fool designed it that way.  I've lived there for eleven years now, and
    the window is fine with just a normal stain on the wooden frame.  We use a
    solid plastic shower-curtain type curtain on that window, and I have
    always put a couple of pieces of velcro on the edges of the curtain so
    that it seals shut so the window doesn't get wet.  It was a big pain
    when we put in the tub-surround to fit it around the window and caulk
    it, but it all seems to be in good shape.  The plexiglass storm window
    would probably work, if you are more concerned - so long as the
    plexiglass thing is not where it is going to get bumped a lot (like
    where our window is); the plexiglass inside storm windows I put on the
    basement windows in our house are real thin and are pretty fragile.
    
    I never open the silly bathtub-window anyhow unless I am working on
    something like painting the ceiling in the bathroom, or soaking mildew
    off something in a chlorine belach solution in the bathtub (used to
    have to do this one a lot - doors on the bathtub sure beat shower
    curtains!).                    

    
    I have seen several baths which have a window in the shower (including
    3 in a 3-family I own); they hold up surprisingly well with minimal
    care.
    
    I have also seen marble sills installed to increase durability; a
    single marble sill shouldn't be too expensive.
    
    
    

    I have a question regarding medicine cabinets.  We live in an older
    home which never had an in-the-wall medicine cabinet.  We're now doing
    the bathroom over and I'd like to know what's involved in regard to
    installing one of these.  The studs in the walls are real 2X4's, not
    1.5 X 3.5
    
    I guess what I'd like to know is does the cabinet require the full 4
    inches (and frame the enclosure), or would I notch the studs to whatever 
    depth I'd like.  Thanks in advance.
    
    					Steve
          

    re.4
    I'm a little confused by your question (normal for me) but let me
    try and see if I understand.
    
    You are wondering if the additional 1/2 inch depth of your cavity
    for your medicine cabinet will cause any problem. The aditional depth
    is because the studding used was a true 4 inch.
    
    I haven't installed, or looked at,an "in wall" medicine cabinet since 
    1977 however I remember that the mounting holes were on the inside side
    walls. You screw the cabinet into the vertical memebers and it doesn't
    matter how deep your cavity is.
    
    If your questions is "Since I have this deep cavity can I recess the
    cabinet?" That will require knowledge of the specific cabinet.
    
    	Dave

Hi,

   The wallpaper in the bathroom, of the house I'm renting is curling
at the corners near the shower.  We use the ceiling fan when showering,
but I guess the paper was hung by someone who doesn't read this conference.

Any thoughts on how to tack it back down for the remainder of our rental
time ??  I don't think the landlord will be inclined to fix it.

Thanks.

Scott

You COULD  mix up some wallpaper paste, but it would not hold for very long.  I
generally use Elmer's  Glue  in  this  situation.  It NEVER comes undone due to
moisture.

Dave

There's a product called Stanfix, I think, that can be used as a glue to
tack the corners down.  It is highly moisture resistant.  It's available
at wallpaper supply places.  Elmers works well in general cases, but I don't
think it's as moisture resistant as Stanfix.

				Steve

    (Is this topic closely-related enough? ;-) )
    
    I have a largish, square, cast-iron bathroom sink, the kind that's set
    into the countertop and held via a metal band. Both the band and the
    edges of the sink are showing rust now, and the word I had from the
    plumber was the usual discouraging news. "Can't get those rims or that
    kind of sink anymore; you need a new one. We can cut you a new
    countertop to fit for, oh, $1xx or so, plus the cost of the sink, of
    course."
    
    Well, I don't want to pay for a new sink-and-countertop if I can avoid
    it. So - does anyone have suggestions? I thought if I could disconnect
    enough things to get at the crumbling sink edges I could patch them
    with epoxy or enamel touch-up (with new fixtures installed, it
    shouldn't show), and perhaps I could seal the metal rim with something
    too (?). [The plumbing and fixtures have to be replaced anyway, BTW.]
    I'm just not sure it would hold up well enough to be worth it - and I
    have the feeling that messing with that sink by myself will be quite a
    pain.
    
    Any thoughts?
    
    -b

    I don't recall reading anything on the use of wonderboard except
    in the last couple of replies.
    
    I saw this stuff for the first time over the weekend and I'm also in
    the middle of a bathroom renovation project. How is wonderboard
    applied to the walls? Drywall screws? Mason nails? Also what can
    be applied over it?
    
    The stuff I saw was rough looking and not too smooth.
    
    Thanks for your help...The bathrrom renovation project would not
    be the same without this file!!!

    
    I recently did a bathroom remodeling job at my house and used the
    "wonderboard" panels. These come in 3' x 5' sheets and are relatively
    easy to install, very simliar to sheet-rock. Because I tried to do
    everything right the first time, I ended up using galvanized "deck
    screws". These supposedly will not rust versus the black dry-wall
    screws that will. The board went up easily. Just make sure you have a
    good solid backing for the panel and you should be all set. Send mail
    if you would like any more details.
    regards,
    Marc

    
    We are in the process of buying our first home - a split with 1.5
    baths.
    
    Yesterday, we had Paul Cornell (who else?) out at the house for a
    home inspection. One of the mild surprises that came out of the 
    home inspection was that the half bath (in the basement) has absolutely
    no ventilation. This apparently is in violation of the building codes.
    
    We need some help trying to decide how to proceed from here. Should we
    put in a condition on the P&S that the owner should vent the bathroom?
    Or should we negotiate a reduction on the price of the home? If so, by
    how much? What does venting cost (fan, window, etc.).
    
    Advice much appreciated.
    
    Thanks, bc
    
    

    
    Re: .21
    
    I should point out that I'm not a DIYer (yet), and don't have the
    confidence to take on any bathroom venting projects.
    
    bc
    

    Ask for a $1000 reduction in price (and accept $500!).  That will
    pay for you to get someone else to install a window or vent fan.
    I'm not real sure I'd let the owner arrange for the work themselves
    (perhaps because they caused the original violation?).
    
    However, there's one minor thing I'd like to point out.  Your comment
    about "in violation of the building codes" should be taken as a red
    flag.  It APPEARS that bathroom was added on AFTER the house was
    built, PROBABLY without benefit of a building permit (one would
    EXPECT a local permit authority would have noticed the problem with
    no ventilation and required a correction).  There may be OTHER such
    midnight projects, and perhaps some "hidden" aspect of one might
    also be a code violation.  You MAY be OK since you have had a "pro"
    home inspector check things out, but even they have a hard time
    finding some "hidden" violations.
    
    Just for grins, I'd ask if the bathroom was added on after the house
    was built.  Then I'd saunter down to city hall and ask to see the
    record of permits for that address.  Also, ask your inspector if he
    thinks that bathroom was an add-on.  Enough info can be a good
    bargaining point!

Yes. I called the town building inspector and they were good enough to
check the records for me. Apparently, the basement was finished after the house
was built. The finished part of the basement today consists of a family
room (with a woodstove, the saga of which I've detailed in another note),
0.5 bath and a laundry area.

Two questions.

How do I find out what additions were made to the house after it was built?

Why do you suppose they did not bother getting a permit for all these
additions?

Thanks, bc

How do I find out what additions were made to the house after it was built?

>>>>Quite possibly the quality of the workmanship, or lack of it, will be a 
good tip-off....

Why do you suppose they did not bother getting a permit for all these
additions?

>>>>I worked in a building inspectors office for 10 months, so let me pass 
on a few reasonable guesses.....
    .Didn't know they needed one.
    .Didn't want to spent the money for one.
    .Didn't want to have the work inspected. (EG, the bath fan cost more 
    	$$$ than they cared to invest...)
    .They knew they could never pass inspection.
    . Didn't want to pay for the plumber/electrician to do their part.

>>>Which reminds me....since it is a half bath....check for a valid 
plumbing permit to have been pulled (assuming the house is in Mass, also 
electrical permits. I'll bet neither will be found but were done by the 
homeowner. Not necessarily bad, but probably not good, either!

    Vic H

We bought a house in 1986, but didn't live in it for most of 1989 because of a
house fire.

The previous owner did a lot of stupid things.  I didn't check on permits, but
either he didn't get them or somehow worked around them.

He took out load-bearing walls, did several highly unsafe/poor electrical work,
did a poor job of installing vinyl siding, and (I'm sure) installed the
woodstove (which caused the fire).  Of course, most of these things were behind
walls or ceilings, so the building inspector didn't find many of them.  I found
some more of them before the fire, the fire exposed the wood stove problem, and
the contractor found quite a few after the fire.

Bottom line -- check everything now.  You'll be glad you did.

								-- Chuck Newman

      I  agree with various replies to the effect that one apparent code
      violation ought to raise a red  flag.   However,  there  are  many
      "reasonable" reasons for not having gotten a building permit, even
      if it is  leagally  required.   No  permit  does  not  necessarily
      translate into poor workmanship. If you and your inspector find no
      other indication of problems then stop for a moment and think "how
      badly do I want this house?"
      
      If  you  really want it badly then don't let an unvented bath stop
      you.  If you don't use it  very  often  it  probably  won't  be  a
      problem.   If  you  need  to  get  it  vented it shouldn't be very
      expensive to install an exhauset fan with a flexible duct  leading
      outside.  
      
      Another  thought -- how long has the house been on the market?  If
      it hass been listed but hasn't hasn't sold for a while the current
      owner may be very willing to "deal" over this issue.
      
      But  in  the  final  alaysis,  while  it is worth thinking it over
      carefully, an unvented basement bathroom, in and of itself, is not
      a big deal.

	I need to finish a small bathroom floor. The look of tile would
be great. Reading the beginner's book on tile, it looks like a simple
ceramic tile floor would work just fine.

	Problem: This is in a summer cottage. This floor will be subject
to freezing during the winter.

	Will a conventional tile-on-plywood floor sustain freezing cycles?
If not, are there any steps I can take to make the installation freeze-
tolerant? This is a bathroom floor so cracking will be a real moisture problem.

Erik (Who couldn't find anything like this in 1111.99)

I just put down a tile floor in a summer place that is not heated, thus the
freezing cycle also, the guy that sold me the tile and thin set said to use
thin set and grouting that has a latex addative and that will help to prevent
any problems.  It also said right on the thin set and grout packaging that 
latex addative helps prevent freezing cycle problems.

Good luck,

Cal

    Other things to try: I believe there is something called wonder board
    that is a composite material that I have seen lain on plywood floors.
    The wonderboard, greyish in color and about 1/2" to 3/4" thick helps
    prevent the grout from cracking. Also I have seen black paper used in
    floor preparation. Use and adheasive to bond the paper to the floor,
    and thinset to bond the tile to the paper. Construction
    grade black paper is moisture resistant, and will allow the floor to
    crack and move (under the paper) while leaving the tile crack free.

	The advice of the "tile store guy" at Tile City in Nashua was that
if ceramic tile and latex-additive thin-set are used, there will be no
problem. He said that vinyl tile would be a problem, but not ceramic.

	So we looked at tile for 2 1/2 hrs and eventually bought some. I
won't know till next spring whether it survives freezing as advertised...

ET

    I put tile on a small outside porch last fall using the latex as
    specified in the grout and thin-set.  The tile was placed over plywood.
    It survived this last winter without any problems.
    
    ROd.
    

    My bathroom shower has the normal tile surround.  However, the tub
    opening has a slight arched frame extending from the top of the tub
    to the ceiling and down to the other side...creating a slight alcove
    look to the open tub area.  This frame is made of wood and appears 
    to have been painted many times.  The paint is starting to bubble.
    Moreover, the wallpaper that extends on the outside wall to the edge 
    of the tub and to the wood arch is a mess (starting to pull up, milldew, 
    rot). Natrually, when in use, a slight bit of water leaves the tub and 
    flows down onto the wall and wallpaper (the inside lip of the arch 
    prevents this to a small degree).
    
    My plan is to try to tile over the wood arch up a couple feet (after 
    stripping the old paint off) and onto the wall area vertical with the
    arch and the tub, about 3 or so inches out.  This brings up a few 
    questions:
    
      * Can I tile right on the (stripped) wood?  Or is a special surface 
        prep necessary?  If so, with what (e.g. waterproofing, etc)?
        Any expansion and/or adhension concerns in tiling wood?
    
      * Is blueboard needed where the vertical tile strip runs along side
        the tub and the wood arch?  (If so, I believe this means taking off 
        the old wallboard, going back to the closest studs, fitting the 
        section of blueboard, tape/plaster, re-wallpaper and then the tile 
        strip??)      
          
      * The tub ceiling is not tiled.  Also appears to be wood/muli-paint 
        layers.  Concerns/suggestions in tiling this area?
    
        

As I read your note, I'm busy attempting to get assorted caulks and seals
from my nails after last night's one-on-one with the same kind of problems
so I guess I can offer some thoughts.


>      * Can I tile right on the (stripped) wood?  Or is a special surface 
>        prep necessary?  If so, with what (e.g. waterproofing, etc)?

I don't see why not. Most tile is glued to regular or green sheetrock
(although it should be cement board in the very wettest areas...) and
depends on the grout to seal moisture away. Even green sheetrock falls
apart when it gets wet so the seal is the important part.

I'd caulk any crevices in the wood prior to putting up the tile on the theory
that water can't get into places that are full of caulk. (Make sure the caulk
doesn't interfere with the tile glue.)

>        Any expansion and/or adhension concerns in tiling wood?
Not between adjacent tile joints on a running surface. I would not use grout
in the corners. Caulk these with something that won't harden and will give
as the surfaces move.
    
>      * Is blueboard needed where the vertical tile strip runs along side
>        the tub and the wood arch?  (If so, I believe this means taking off 
>        the old wallboard, going back to the closest studs, fitting the 
>        section of blueboard, tape/plaster, re-wallpaper and then the tile 
>        strip??)      
If the existing sheetrock is strong enough to support the tile so that you
can properly seal it, I'd leave it. I don't see what you would gain by
doing all that and the risks of causing a new problem are too great. As
a fer'instance, I once replaced a section of wall as you are proposing and
discovered that the framing was just far enough out of line to require
_lots_ of shims. In order to reproduce a smooth wall surface, I said "Let's
go back one more frame...well maybe two..."  It was a mess. Kind of like
cutting 'just a touch' off of a chair's leg to level it.
          
>      * The tub ceiling is not tiled.  Also appears to be wood/muli-paint 
>        layers.  Concerns/suggestions in tiling this area?
I'd paint instead of tile but that's a preferance. If you do paint, look
into mildew resistant stuff (And let me know what you find out :-)    
        
Mickey.

    I tiled over a plywood bathroom subfloor last year. Color Tile said
    it was fine to do this. They recommended epoxy glue for bonding tiles
    to the plywood and a latex addative to the grout for flexibility to
    take care of expansion. 
    
    The job came out great, but this bathroom is not in heavy use, so I
    can't comment regarding holding up over time. 

    
    	I have a question along the lines of .-1
    
    	What is the "standard" configuration for outgoing plumbing
    in a bathroom? I assume a 4 inch line from the existing 4 (or was that
    6.. hmm) to the "new" bathroom. but, then what? Toilet thru a trap
    straight into the 4/6 and just hook in the sink,shower and washer
    somewhere around there?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Rick
    

    When I put in my bathroom I used 3" PVC for the main drain as it is
    readily available in most home center/hardware stores. The code for
    New Hampster (according to my neighbor) requires 4" inch lines only
    from the foundation out to the septic tank/sewer line. 4" PVC is two
    or three times more expensive than 3" PVC. If your configuration
    is truly "standard", then go to a good plumbing supply house and get
    the fitting the sits in the wall below and behind the toilet. When I
    explained at the supply house that I needed a fitting which was
    3" the top for the stack vent, 3" out the bottom for main drain/vent
    , 2" out the left side for the shower (don't want flooded shower stall)
    , 1.5" out the right side for sink drain, and 3" out the front for
    the toilet drain. He says "Oh, you need a western knutson" ( knutson
    was actually some other name that sounded vaguely Scandanavian). The
    drain pipe diameters for the appliances listed above have worked fine
    for ten years. I'm sure a more knowledgeable person in the file can
    quote the exact codes and fitting names that you'll need. They'll
    also tell you that it is illegal to do it yourself in Mass and NH.
    

It is not illegal to do your own plumbing in NH.  You should take out a
permit for major work such as adding a bathroom and have the work
inspected. 

The important thing to take into consideration is proper venting.  The
inspector in a town I once lived in told me that he didn't want to see
an unvented sink/tub drain "below" a toilet drain.  The rush of water from
the toilet would suck air in from the tub/sink past the trap.

			steve

    
    Well, we've decided to go the "pay_the_plumber" route and were given
    some interesting details. The one that really shocked us was that
    he says that NH code now requires a vent on every trap. Sounds a little
    like overkill to me, can anyone verify this? FWIW: The estimate is
    1500+/- to install water heater in basement, run hot lines to existing
    kitchen, existing bathroom and new bathroom. Run cold lines to new
    bathroom and waste lines from new bathroom.
    
    Rick
    
    BTW: That translates to 4 vents! (washer,shower,sink&seat)

    
    
    	I think you'll find that they don't mean a vent through the
    roof for every trap. They usually will vent the particular trap
    up to a common riser and only the common riser goes through the roof. 
    
    This method is used to get rid of what us known in the trade as 
    "wet venting", allowing the fixture to drain and vent through the same 
    pipe. If the run from trap to main riser is short it usually works
    and I believe is still allowed if the run of the pipe is within a
    certain distance from the main riser. But when the run gets too long it
    tends to suck the trap dry after it drains. 
    
    Sounds like the guy knows what he is doing to me. 
                                    
    Good luck with the project!
    
    P
    
    	The code that NH has adopted is BOCA for plumbing standards.

    Talk about things changing, I'm in the middle of plumbing my upstairs
    bathroom and thought I had a pretty good idea of what was going on.
    would somebody tell me if the illustration below will work?
                         
    	   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\
 to outside vent________  \
    			| |
                toilet  | |
                 ( )    | |
                  \ \   | |
            SINK   \ \  | |     () TUB
                ()  \ \ | |    //
                 \\  \ \| |   //
                  \\  \   |  //
                   \\  \  | //
                    \\  | |//
                     \\ |  /
                      \\| |
                       \  |
                        | |
                        | |
                        ( ) Drain
    
    
    tthe large pipe is 3" and the small pipe is 1 1/2".
    I suppose running vents for the tub and sink won't be to bad if I have
    too.
    
    Paul

Re: .66

That arrangement would have been nixed by the building inspector in a town
I used to live in - perhaps many others.  When the toilet flushes, the
rush of water past the connections for sink and tub will  create a vacuum
and draw water out of the traps.  The sink and tub drains should be
separately vented.  You MIGHT be able to get away with installing a
"Pro-Vent", which is a self-contained venting device that connects to
a T.  Some inspectors don't mind these, others do.  They don't work as well
as a real vent.

				Steve

    Thanks that is what I needed to know. I'll vent the tub and sink upto
    the attic and out thru the gable end.
    
    Thanks again 
    
    Paul

Do the various vents all have to be separate all the way up, or are they
allowed to join above the highest point where water enters the drain pipe?

	Thanks,
	Larry

The requirement I was given was that they could join above the highest
toilet connection.  In most houses, they'd join somewhere before going
through the roof.

			Steve

    I'm about to tile the wall around a tub in a new bathroom. 
    I'm set on tile, because I prefer the look over the fiberglass
    bath surrounds. The wall around the tub is greenboard.
    
    When I went to buy caulk for around the edge of the
    tub, I saw a product that supposedly can be used in place of caulk
    around a tub. It looks like a plastic strip that you install where 
    the caulk would normally go. It looks neater than caulk and is 
    supposedly easier to clean. Sounds great, but I'm wondering if it 
    really seals as well as caulk. Does anyone have any experience 
    using this in place of caulk?
                                   

    There may be different kinds and it may depend on what you are trying
    to stick it to but I tried it and the "self stick" didn't stick.  I had 
    to put silicone adhesive on the back to get it to stick.  I don't think 
    I'd use it again. 

re: 2228.10    rotten drywall behind ceramic tile above bath tub       10 of 11
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                      -< plastic strip instead of caulk? >-
>
>    When I went to buy caulk for around the edge of the
>    tub, I saw a product that supposedly can be used in place of caulk
>    around a tub. It looks like a plastic strip that you install where 
>    the caulk would normally go. It looks neater than caulk and is 

I felt the same dilemma, so I went over to "Builders Square" for some advice
on how to fill the gap between the tile and the cast iron tub. I checked
on several departments, and this a summary of what I learned:

- In the Plumbing dept they suggested the plastic strip
- in the ceramic tile dept the recomend filling it in with grout
- in the <whatever> they suggested a caulk

In the literature (books), caulk is inferred.

The tub is installed, I will mount Wonderboard, and plan to use ceramic
tile. I'll use Blueboard between the tile and the ceiling; the ceiling, and
around the outside of the enclosure.

Caulk was suggested, so if the Tub were to move (expand/contract) relative to
the wall; the meeting point wouldn't crack.

Grout was suggested becuase its not likely that once the tub and tile were set
correctly in place, neither will really move at all.

The plastic strip was recomend because its flexible (like caulk),
easy to install, and the bathtup lip would extend slightly up under the 
wonderboard, so it only needs to keep the excess water out, and looks nicer.

I have a feeling its a personal choice when used with tile and Wonderboard.
With greenboard, I guess it needsd  to be flexible (caulk or plastci) ?

_bob

    > grout...tub and tile won't really move... (etc)
    
    I can't think of a solution more likely to fail, and then be hell 
    to repair when it does.
    
    Edd

Our home inspector recommended filling the tub with water before replacing
caulk.  That way the caulk would get compressed when the tub was drained.
He clearly thought that there *is* shifting (this is a 1930's bathroom
with ceramic tile in mud).

    >>>Our home inspector recommended filling the tub with water before
    >>>replacing caulk.  That way the caulk would get compressed when the 
    >>>tub was drained.
    
    
    Yes, I think I heard this somewhere too. I believe *cold* water is
    recommended?                                       
    
    Thanks for all the info. 
    

�    Yes, I think I heard this somewhere too. I believe *cold* water is
�    recommended?                                       


Of course use cold water -- You want maximum weight in the tub, and as we all
know by know, cold water weighs 8.3 pounds/gallon while boiling water weighs
less than 8 pounds per gallon...

								-- Chuck Newman

And unless you are going to bathe while the stuff sets, it is cheaper too. ;-)

Stan

If you take a bath, wait for the water to get cold, and then caulk your tub,
think how much money you'll save!

    Well, last weekend I wallpapered both our bathrooms.  What a pain in
    the neck.  But now my question is about the ugly linoleum that is
    around the tub in the older bathroom.  It works as a tub suround, I
    guess.  THere is also a window in this shower.  My husband and I would
    like to do something to get rid of this, but taking off the linoleum
    seems like too much work and expense.  In the rest of the room, I
    painted it with "Prep & Size II" that is suposed to let you paper over
    plastic laminate.  That actually seemed to work pretty well.   But I
    don't know about paper IN the shower!!!  Are there any types of
    wallpaper that would do?  
    
    Just wondering .....

I don't think wallpaper works too well in a shower, no matter what kind it
is.  But if you do try this, I'd suggest vinyl wallpaper and a water-resistant
paste.  Expect to have to redo the job in a short time.

			Steve

Is there any reason that you can't put tileboard over the linoleum?
Another possibility (which may look even tackier than the linoleum)
is contact paper.

re: 625.34                  Wallpapering a bathroom                    34 of 36
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                          -< wallpaper the shower??? >-
>
>    Well, last weekend I wallpapered both our bathrooms.  What a pain in
>    the neck.  But now my question is about the ugly linoleum that is
>    around the tub in the older bathroom.  It works as a tub suround, I

Just my opinion, but I would expect any form of water soluble or soft-base
glue (contact paper_ would peel very quickly in a shower.

I redid my downstairs shower for under $50.00 which included the cheap
plastic tub surround, glue, and a piece for the overhead. (The clever previous
owner built cabinets over the shower, giving it a  6 1/2 foot ceiling).

The surround is in 5 pieces, and was very wasy to install. The original stuff
was that hardboard laminate popular in th 50's; and available even now. But
the "water proof" surface had worn away, leaving large "pin" holes
in the grooves of the checkerboard pattern.

Its still working fine. If I were to do it again, I would fill in the
spaces behind the "extruded shelves". They sound like a  drum when the 
water hits them.

-Bob

>Just my opinion, but I would expect any form of water soluble or soft-base
>glue (contact paper_ would peel very quickly in a shower.

     I wallpapered a shower with vinyl paper and then sealed _all_ the 
seams with clear silicone caulk.  Without the caulk the wallpaper _will_ 
separate.  With the caulk it'll hold up fine.

    Try VARATHANE - Elite Diamond Finish over wall-paper - the add says
    so.... Protects wallpaper for a waterproof surface!
    
    
       <<< SERENA::SERENA$DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 4073.16      H2O Based Polyurethane vs. Solvent Based Poly         16 of 18
CSSE32::SKABO "Money talks, mine say's GOODBYE!"     40 lines  31-JAN-1991 12:05
                     -< VARATHANE - Elite Diamond Finish >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    VARATHANE - Elite Diamond Finish (tm)

	I received a sample of this new product a couple of months ago... it
is GREAT! I have used other Varathane products (see note 2.134) on my new
hardwood floor, but if they had this product last year, I know I would have
used it.... For a free product brochure, (maybe they will send you a sample) 
call the Flecto Co. at 1-800-6-FLECTO (1-800-635-3286) I have not checked on 
the $$ price, but anything with all these features is worth it!

Below are some highlights of the product from their brochure:

	o VARATHANE - Elite Diamond Finish (tm) transparent IPN 
	  (Interpenetrating Polymer Networks) This new technology results in a
	  coating that's clearer and tougher than any polyurethane, any 
	  lacquer, or any any varnish.


		1. Twice the durability of polyurethanes, two coats provides
		   more abrasion resistance than three coats of polyurethane.

		2. Never turns yellow (I will vouch for this! wife stenciled a 
	           white ceramic floor tile in the kitchen, and I protected 
	           it with this, looks great and is holding up super...)

		3. Water clean up!! (a PLUS)

		4. Protects wallpaper for a waterproof surface!

		5. Virtually ODORLESS!!!! (yep, no poly (or anything) smell 
	           at all! No one knew that I was even using the product in a
	           closed house)

		6. Dries in 1 hour! So you can recoat in 1 hour, do the
	           floors, etc without running everyone out of the house!!!

		7. Finish comes in Gloss, Semi-Gloss and Satin....

I've done this (used Varathane Diamond Elite over wallpaper), but it was not
a vinyl-base paper.  I don't quite see that this would help much over vinyl.
But the seams are indeed important, so perhaps the Varathane would help seal
them.  It works great in my kitchen, though.

Still, I am very dubious about using any kind of wallpaper in an area subject
to direct water spray and high humidity.  I'd think tileboard or one of those
acrylic surrounds  Bob mentions (though my experience with the five-piece
surrounds has not been positive) would be a better bet.

			Steve

Won't future owners curse the one who put Varathane over wallpaper?

Re: .41

No, I don't think so.  Why?  It shouldn't affect its ability to be stripped
(any more than plain vinyl wallpaper would).  The idea is to make the surface
non-absorbent.

			Steve

re .42:

There are lots of notes in here in which people bemoan the painted-over
wallpaper they're trying to remove.  How is Varathaned-over wallpaper
different?

I suppose I'm not sure, but if the surface underneath is primed properly,
it should easily be strippable.

			Steve

I have recently redone my bathroom a second time and still have problems...the
story goes as follows...

Stripped wallpaper and installed an exhaust fan to eliminate moisture(moldy 
ceiling and walls).  then painted the walls.  They peeled all over.

So I recently sanded the walls down, vacuumed them, primed the walls with 
sommerville lumbers best primer and painted the walls with top of the line 
pittsburgh paint.  Now it is just a week later and the walls are peeling again!

The walls had no moisture on them when I painted.  We had not used the shower 
24 hours so it had plenty of time to try out.

I have no idea what is causing the walls to peel.  It is very depressing! 
The first time everyone thought it was because I didn't prime the walls.

Anyone have a solution!  I don't want to wall paper because I prefer the painted
look.  And also fear the moisture will just help the wallpaper to peel too.

Thanks for any advice!

debi

Try again, but this time use Zinnser 1-2-3 for a primer, and a decent paint
(Pittsburgh doesn't cut it, try Benjamin Moore.)  If the wall had moisture
problems before, the cheap primer won't stick very well.

				Steve

Make sure you are putting the paint on in thin coats and allowing at least a
day, preferably two days, between each coat, for the paint to dry completely.

CdH

If you removed wallpaper, you'd have to wash off the old glue with TSP.
Glue on walls will result in peeling paint.

SJ

	    Do you really need to use Tri Sodium Phosphate (TSP) to clean
	wallpaper paste?  I've done pretty well with regular soap and
	water.  TSP is one of those household chemicals that's a bad thing
	to pour down the drain.
	    24 hours for your walls to dry out sounds like a pretty short
	duration.  You would need some serious heat and ventilation to dry
	the walls out that quickly.

					Tim

You can also use a solution of fabric softener to remove wallpaper paste.

TSP isn't all that bad - indeed, it's the primary ingredient in many household
cleaners such as Spic'N'Span.  Yes, use TSP or, what I prefer, Savogran's
Dirtex, an ammoniated TSP cleaner.  You do need to remove the glue before
repainting.

I also again recommend using a product similar to Zinnser 1-2-3 for a primer -
normal "drywall primer" is just a thin paint, and doesn't have the best
adhesion properties.

				Steve

    
    1.  What is/are the walls made of?  (Plaster or plaster skim,
        sheetrock, other board?) 

    2.  If plaster, was there any sign of efflorescence (white powdery
        crystals) on the surface?
    
    3.  Are you using oilbase or waterbase paint?

    4.  Did you use some kind of chemical stripper for the wallpaper?
    
    5.  Did you use a fungicide on the mould?
    
    (Trying to eliminate any chemical problems that might need to be
    neutralised first.)
     
    My wild guess is that you sanded right back to the original surface,
    taking off the original paint?  Now you are probably trying to use
    oilbase paint over a too-damp surface.  One cure for this is to switch to
    waterbase latex using only one coat, then leave it for a couple of
    months.  After that, you can wash it down with household cleaner and
    apply 2 coats of oil.  The theory is that the latex prevents further
    direct water absorption but allows the surface to dry slowly.
    
    [There is a microporous oil-base paint that allows you to paint
    over damp wood without peeling or bubbling, but I'm not sure if it's
    available here.]
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

	   The key word in TSP is Phosphate.  Any cleaners that contain
	phosphates kill the bacteria used in water treatment plants and
	found in septic systems.  There are many cleaning solutions on
	the market that contain no phosphates.  TSP is very high in P
	and is very bad.
	   With increased public awareness, consumers may build a trend
	toward environmentally sound products.  As their marketability
	increases, their availabity will likewise increase.  Manufacturers
	will only produce what they can sell... so it's really up to us.

					Tim

>	   The key word in TSP is Phosphate.  Any cleaners that contain
>	phosphates kill the bacteria used in water treatment plants and
>	found in septic systems.  There are many cleaning solutions on

Actually, the exact opposite is true.  Phosphates are fertilizers, and when
they get into the waterways, they encourage the growth of algae, which
consume oxygen in those waterways, which kills off fish and other wildlife.

-Mike

>Actually, the exact opposite is true.  Phosphates are fertilizers, and when
>they get into the waterways, they encourage the growth of algae, which
>consume oxygen in those waterways, which kills off fish and other wildlife.

	    Maybe I'm not reading this correctly but I don't understand
	what you're getting at.  Either way, phostphates are still bad,
	aren't they?

					Tim

>	    Maybe I'm not reading this correctly but I don't understand
>	what you're getting at.  Either way, phostphates are still bad,
>	aren't they?

They're bad for a river or lake, good for your garden, and probably neither
good nor bad for a septic system (unless you dump *a lot* down).

"What I'm getting at" is just clearing up some misinformation.

Granted that TSP used to remove wallpaper is more likely to harm a lake than
to help someone's tomatoes. 

-Mike

The problem with phosphates is when too many of them get into ponds and lakes.
Then algae take over and choke out the other life in the water.  However,
there is widespread debate about how much consumer use of phosphates contributes
to this problem.  Excessive fertilization is a more serious contributor.

I would not avoid phosphate-containing products entirely if they're what you
need to get the job done.  (BTW, do you have a dishwasher?  Do you use
dishwasher detergent?  They ALL have phosphates.)  Infrequent use of TSP
in the home should not be a problem.

					Steve

It also depends on the part of the country.  Phosphates don't seem to be
as much of a problem where I am (northern MA) as they are in other areas.

If they were, you know that MA would rush to ban detergents with
phosphates, but
that hasn't happened yet.

   Gary

>	(BTW, do you have a dishwasher?  Do you use dishwasher detergent?  
>	They ALL have phosphates.)

	
	    No I don't, but I believe you're right.  They also list the 
	concentrations by percentage on the packaging.  Liquids tend to 
	contain lower levels of phosphates.  It may also be feasible for
	the detergent companies to develop dishwasher detergents that do
	not contain phosphates.  They've developed laundry detergents
	and other such products without them, so it's probably a matter
	of time... and consumer induced change.
	    I will do some research into their effects on the environment
	and post my findings.  My intent is not to argue with people for
	the sake of arguing.  There's plenty of that already.  I am only
	attempting to enlighten people in the hopes that they might make
	the green choice.
	    
					Tim

Back to the original problem....

I did use Zinser(?) primer on the walls not the lesser versions.  When I 
originally removed the wallpaper I used the FAST stuff to clean off the paste and
then just painted.  People did guess that I didn't get all the paste off.

When I sanded, Not sure if it went back to original surface or not.  But thought
the primer would cover up everything and act as a sealer.  I then just put the
one layer of latex paint over it, have used nothing oil based.

The walls are wallboard.  When I took the paper off the first time looked like 
the walls had never been painted before.  However, I assume they were sized
since the wallpaper came off real easy for the most part.

For the moment, the peeling is confined to both ends of the shower.  That is 
obviously where the most moisture is.

Plan to call Sommerville lumber to get them to have the Pittsburgh paint rep
call me.  Figure he is the supposed expert.

Anyone else has anyother ideas I'll take them.  Thanks for the input so far.  

I have a fiberglass bathtub with a hole in the bottom, which I patched with
one of those fiberglass repair kits.  Now I need to prime and paint it white,
to (try to) match.

Will the two part epoxy paint work for this application?  Can the stuff be
applied right over the fiberglass patch, or will epoxy primer be needed?

Spags does not sell it.  Where's the best place to buy it in the greater
marlboro/worcester area?

Thx  Steve

We're finally getting around to finishing the bathroom in our addition.
We want to get this done, and then finish the rest of the bedroom (which ought
to be much cheaper).  Our priorities are quality workmanship and installation
first, reliable, low maintenance fixtures second, and finally design and
fixtures that will add value without appearing too exorbitant compared to the
rest of the house.  The only DIY we might tackle is the wiring and perhaps
the tiling.

The bathroom is unusal in that it is under the sloping part of the roof
(in a cape), with a pair of skylights instead of windows.  It's also
over the garage, with the possibility (probability) that the drain
pipe, at least from the toilet, will have to go through the garage,
presumably in an insulated box.  It will also have to be positioned to
avoid the garage doors and allow the garage
door opener to be reconnected; looks inside the garage aren't important.  We
also want to make sure that the vent pipe is sent to the back side of the
house, so as not to be visible from the front.  All these factors may combine
to limit our choices for laying out the bathroom.

Should we start by finding a plumber, to guide us on rough layout, and then
choose fixtures and interior design?  Or should we go to a design place, and
have them take responsibility for the design?  Do kitchen and bath
design centers work with their own plumbers?  Or would going to a design center
kill us on price, given that we want decent quality (tile, Corian, etc.).

   Gary

I would suggest talking to a design store, it won't cost you anything and
you may come up with good ideas.  Buying through the store won't really cost
you more either, and may even end up saving money.  The designers know what
works and what doesn't - most plumbers aren't well versed in design.

					Steve

I would suggest going to a bookstore or library and looking at some books
in the category of bathroom design or home improvement.  Sunset has a good
one, but there are lots of others.  You'll find out stuff like how much
space to allot for various fixtures and lots of different sample layouts.
I think it's always best to become informed on a subject *before* talking
with professionals -- unless one wishes to hand the job over to them and
take whatever they provide.  But even then, if you have some information
you can more easily tell if the professionals know what their stuff.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Try H.Q. in the paint department
    
     JR

    I just read an ad in Family Handyman for a new paint from Zinnser
    made especially for bathrooms - it is guaranteed not to mildew for
    five years.  Looked interesting.
    
    			Steve

Any opinions on putting a two person shower, without a tub, into a master
bathroom?  This was suggested to us on the grounds that adults rarely,
if ever, take a bath (unless it's a whirlpool bath), and that having
one bathtub in the house was adequate.  It certainly makes much more
sense for us given our current usage, and would probably save money,
but I'm concerned about how it would affect the future resale value of
the house.

By two person shower, we're anticipating something with at least the
same footprint as a tub, but with more space because it woudn't have
the tub walls and shelves, and possibly with two shower heads.

   Gary

    I would think that not having a tub would negatively affect the re-sale
    value.  Saying adults rarely take baths is a pretty broad statement.  I
    know many people, mainly women, that take baths for relaxation
    purposes.  Hence the large market for bath salts and bath oil and bubble 
    bath and and bath this and bath that.
    
    George

    
    We did what you are contemplating when we put up our house. The
    upstairs bathroom has a 4' by 5' shower enclosure (two showerheads)
    and no tub. The downstairs bathroom does have a tub but the only
    one who ever gets a bath there is the dog.
    
    We're very happy with what we've got. I suppose that not having a tub
    upstairs would slightly reduce the number of potential buyers for your
    house. But that might be offset by buyers (like myself) who would be
    more interested because that set-up makes more sense for some people.
    
    JP

    Have a tub.  If you don't, no family with little kids will want to
    buy the house.

    If this is the only bath in the house, I'd say put the tub in. No
    tub will certainly effect your resale value. If there's a "main"
    bathroom in the house with a tub, a second one with a big shower
    will possibly be an advantage.
    
    I wanted to do the same thing when I redid my only bathroom, but 
    finally decided against it.
    
    Edd

Reread reply .74, folks -- there's already a regular bathroom with a tub 
in the house.  The question is whether there needs to be a second tub 
in the master bathroom.  I think one tub is enough.

Since most adults mostly take showers, having a shower instead of of a
combined shower/tub in the master bathroom could be a big advantage in
selling the house.  After all, it's a *lot* more convenient to shower in a
shower stall instead of in a tub that can be used as a shower.  And there
is still a tub in the house for those occasional relaxing soaks -- which
I've found work best when small children are not around, anyway.

I have yet to live in a house of my own that has a master bathroom (a 
bathroom accessible only from the master bedroom).  However, my parents
had one, and it had no tub, just a shower.  It worked fine for them.  I 
think the house was laid out that way because of space limitations --
with a shower, it was a roomy bathroom, but with a bathtub it would
have been cramped.  Nor would they have wanted us to use their bathtub
even if they'd had one.  

If you find a buyer who loves the house except that they want a second tub,
you can always point out that there is room for a tub, and it wouldn't
cost that much (maybe 1% of the selling price of the house) to convert the
double shower into a tub.  But unless American customs change, I think
it'll be a plus to have a roomy shower stall in the master bath.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

>                    After all, it's a *lot* more convenient to shower in a
>shower stall instead of in a tub that can be used as a shower.

It is?  Why?

I vote for a tub.  We have 2.5 bathrooms.  Both full bathrooms has a tub and 
two sinks.  We take mostly shower but a few times my wife wants to take a nice
hot bath.  When we was looking at houses,  the Realtor said the resell is 
better with a tub then only a shower.  I said if you have the room for a tub put
one in.


Ben

�Any opinions on putting a two person shower, without a tub, into a master
�bathroom?  
    
    Friends of ours did this when they put a new addition on their house. 

    
    Re: .80 (Gerald)
    
>>                    After all, it's a *lot* more convenient to shower in a
>>shower stall instead of in a tub that can be used as a shower.
>
>It is?  Why?
    
    - A shower stall is usually bigger (wider, anyway). 
    
    - It makes it easier to have a sliding door (presence of which would
      make it a bit more inconvenient to climb into a tub). 
    
    - You can use a tile that is less slippery than the bottom of a tub
      (and avoid installing those dirt-catching traction stick-ons).
    
    - It is a _much_ better fit for two people (this one is listed for
      water conservation reasons only, of course).
    
    JP

I don't have to climb into my shower stall, and I don't have to duck my
head to avoid the bar at the top of the sliding door on the tub.  Also, 
I don't have to lean down to control the water or get the soap.  Yeah, I 
know I could fix the soap problem by providing a second dish, but the
other problems are inherent.  Also, a bathtub with a sliding shower door
isn't as convenient to use as a bathtub without one -- it's partially
blocked and you cannot sit on the edge, or clean it easily.  A shower curtain
still gets in the way and is harder to clean than a sliding door.

The first apartment my wife and I stayed in had a separate tub and shower.
If there is room, that's a good idea.  If there isn't, I think I'd prefer 
a really comfortable shower to a bathtub that does ackward double duty.
Maybe someday I'll get a chance to choose...

	Enjoy,
	Larry

Thanks for all the feedback.  We'll probably go with the dual shower,
no tub, as it's what's right for us, and seems to be at worst a toss up
for others.

This leads to two more questions:

1.  Presumably a prefab shower basin is cheaper than a custom job.  Is
it good enough or better?

2.  One of the options for the walls is something that I believe is called
SoapStone (tm); it's along the same lines as Corian, but only 1/4" thick, and
so, presumably, cheaper than a Corian countertop on a per square foot basis.
I don't know how it would compare to a tile shower in cost.  Any
experience with this type of shower walls (or tile versus fiberglass
versus other alternatives, 
in general)?  Fiberglass is presumably easier to keep clean (except for
the caulk), tile can be more decorative, and the synthetic seems more
elegant (by today's standards).  I'm also wondering whether the joints
for the synthetic 
in this situation are glued smoothly (the way Corian countertops are glued), or
caulked in the corners, and how well the synthetic and it's glue holds
up given the heat and humidity.

   Gary

    Friends of ours put in a one piece 2 person shower stall,(but also a 2
    person whirlpool tub in the center of the same bathroom.)  Given the money 
    to do it and if the space was there for a tub I'd put in a whirlpool tub.
    I'd rather take a bath with my wife then a shower anyway!  ;-)
    
    But anyway.... My folks have what I believe is "soapstone".  It's about
    1/4 thick and looks like white marbel with light grey in it.  Really
    does look like the real thing (marbel) and after at least 10 years it
    looks brand new still.  The guy who put it in I guess just glued the
    corners, and I say this because, there is no caulk at all (except for
    the sliding glass door).
    
    Steve
    

    
    The following is the output from a DIRECTORY/TITLE="SHOWER" -- lots of
    good information (probably more than you wanted to know) for the shower
    builder. I suspect 104, 107, 1903, 2511, 2795, 2796, 3096, 3352, 3640,
    and 4255 will be of particular interest.
    
    JP
    
       104   NACHO::LUNGER       25-MAR-1986     6  Tub/shower doors -
                                                    triple panel
       107     TLE::CLARK        26-MAR-1986     9  Neo-angle Shower (or
                                                    alternativ
       540  MOSAIC::BUSENBARK     6-NOV-1986     9  Shower fixture for old tub
       643  NETCOM::HANDEL       11-DEC-1986     5  Shower curtain blues
       858   WORDS::HARVELL       5-MAR-1987    27  Waxing your shower
      1097     TLE::CHENG         4-MAY-1987     7  Leakage in bathroom
                                                    shower pipes
      1454  MEMORY::BERKSON      26-AUG-1987    10  Shower faucet for tub
                                                    with legs?
      1755    SAGE::DERAMO        2-DEC-1987     1  Shower Solutions
      1825  AKOV75::BRYANT       24-DEC-1987     1  Outdoor Shower (Valves)
                                                    Anyone?
      1903  NETMAN::SEGER        25-JAN-1988    74  Building a shower - TOH
                                                    digress
      1958  CNTROL::WONG          8-FEB-1988     1  Plumbing Problem -
                                                    Shower unit
      2122   SALEM::PAGLIARULO   16-MAR-1988     8  Installing a
                                                    Bath/Shower Valve
      2455  BINKLY::WINSTON      13-JUL-1988    18  Anti-scald shower head
      2511  OLDMIS::SYSTEM        1-AUG-1988     5  Flood from shower
                                                    drain?
      2513     BSS::HOE           1-AUG-1988     2  Restoring fiberglass
                                                    gelcoat on
      2748    NOVA::MOY          25-OCT-1988    13  How to fix fiberglass
                                                    shower ch
      2795   FXVNS::HOLLAND       7-NOV-1988    15  Shower Doors
      2861  CASV02::DEADERICK     8-DEC-1988     2  Control for shower has
                                                    broken
      2862  CNTROL::KING          8-DEC-1988     2  ??SHOWER HEAD ADAPTER??
      2903  PAMOLA::RECKARD      30-DEC-1988     2  Crooked shower pipe
                                                    elbow thing
      2944  BPOV04::M_CLEMENT    17-JAN-1989    26  ? Shower head
                                                      replacement
      2976   DELNI::MHARRIS      31-JAN-1989     7  Building a shower pan.
      3096  MUSKIE::HEYMANS      14-MAR-1989     1  Building a Neo-Angle
                                                    shower?
      3223  DEMING::POLCARI      10-MAY-1989    19  SYMMONS shower valve
                                                    handle wil
      3352  CECV01::SELIG        17-JUL-1989     1  MUD FLOOR for TILED
                                                    SHOWER STALL
      3409  XCUSME::NEWSHAM      11-AUG-1989     9  Running water still
                                                    heard after
      3570   WAGON::ELARAB        7-NOV-1989     3  Help I'm in the Shower
                                                    & Well H
      3640   FORCE::HQCONSOL     18-DEC-1989     5  Drains for Fiberglass
                                                    Shower Un
      4175  FROSTY::JANEB         2-APR-1991     1  Tub/shower cold water
                                                    shuts off
      4178  FDCV07::MARINO        4-APR-1991    21  Luke Warm Showers from
                                                    Tankless
      4188   WMOIS::KNOWLTON_C   12-APR-1991     1  2 or 3 piece showers?
      4224  XANADU::RECKARD       8-MAY-1991     6  Tub/shower controls -
                                                    one for v
      4255   CSC32::S_HALL        4-JUN-1991     6  Tile/shower drain
                                                    interface
      4453  GIAMEM::JELENIEWSKI   5-DEC-1991    16  How to clean shower
                                                    doors?
      4527  TIGEMS::ELKINS       17-FEB-1992     2  Shower steam activates
                                                    smoke de
     

    I have a question for you noters out there.
    
    I am in the middle of renovations right now. I will be having walls
    covered with blue board and skimcoated with plaster. There is one room
    that I would like to convert to a bathroom someday. Right now the walls
    are sheetrock covered with paneling. The plasterer tells me that he can
    put something on the walls to allow him to plaster over them where he
    doesn't put blueboard up. 
    
    Q: Will plaster covered paneling covered sheetrock hold up to the high
    humidity of a bathroom?
    
    FWIW I plan to paint with a vapor barrier type paint. 
    
    My alternative is to rip out more walls and add more expense to a
    remodeling budget that has already exceded original plans. Any strong
    opinions one way ot the other out there?
    
    

    re .88
    I think it depends on what you're going to put in the bathroom.
    If you're not planning on putting in a tub or shower you're probably
    going to be ok.
    
    But if it's likely that this room is going to see a lot of steam
    and water on the walls after you convert it, you're possibly wasting
    money by trying to take a shortcut.  Assuming you plan to stay there
    "forever", you may have to fix water/steam damage at some
    point in time; you could of course sell and move at an appropriate time
    and let the next owner fix it up...
    
    Perhaps it would be workable to just replace walls around where you'll
    eventually have a tub (or shower).  Put up wonderboard on those walls.
    Another possibility is to eventually put in one of those totally
    enclosed tub/shower combinations, which might make it unnecessary to
    consider new walls.
    
    

    Got a question on bathroom flooring.  Next week I'm going to tear into
    my downstairs bathroom and redo the whole thing.  For the floor I will
    be putting down ceramic tile.  Someone, in a reply to another note,
    suggested putting down wonderboard as a base for the tile.  I always
    thought of wonderboard as a wall preparation for tile not a floor
    preparation but since I have to replace the subfloor anyway it sounds like 
    a great idea.  Now, I've got a bunch of questions. 
    
    Is this a recommended application for wonderboard?  
    
    I was going to go with 3/4" plywood and use that as a base for tile and
    mastic.  Would the wonderboard change the thickness of the plywood? 
    For instance could I go with a 1/2" plywood instead and then the
    wonderboard on top?
    
    How would I bond the tile to the wonderboard?  Would I still use
    mastic?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    I used plywood and mastic to put down ceramic mozaic tiles about 15
    years ago.  They still look fine and have had no problems. 
    
    Dave

    re .28
    If you're going to use wonderboard under your floor tiles, you
    still need a subfloor.  Wonderboard will not flex without cracking
    and becoming structurally useless.
    
    Many people have had excellent results laying tile directly
    over plywood.  Many people believe putting down wonderboard is
    overkill.
    
    Personally, I believe putting wonderboard around a toilet
    and perhaps a shower stall, places that tend to get wet quite
    frequently, is probably good enough.  But some would not even
    go that far.

    This may be a bit late but....
    
    I will take a guess that the areas where peeling is most prevalent are
    exterior walls; that is walls which are the outside of the house.  From
    the date of your original note (Jan.) it was probably cold outside as
    well.  This will cause drying time to slow down considerably, while
    retaining moisture for a longer period of time as well.
    
    I have seen this problem before and in several cases found that the
    best solution was a simple one - little vent caps which get installed
    under the window sills.  These allow moisture to leave the house. 
    Believe it or not, sometimes a house an be tooooo well sealed
    (insulated) which stops moisture from escaping.
    
    Another cause might be, although the TSP and primer would alleviate it,
    is calsomite underneath.  Clasomite was an old painting material made
    from a powdered substance.  The bad part is that it is difficult to
    coat with the "newer" latex based paints.  In this case, you'd want to
    re-wash the walls, use a good quality oil based primer/sealer followed
    by an oil paint (semi-gloss or high gloss tends to resist moisture much
    better and dry to a harder surface).
    
    Let me know where you stand.
    
    re;
    Tom

re .16:

It's calcimine, not calsomite.  I believe it was typically used on ceilings,
and it certainly predates wallboard, so I doubt that that's his problem.

    Most tile installers I've talked with recommend a MINIMUM of 1.25"
    floor thickness (subfloor +underlayment).  Wonderboard (.5") is more
    rigid than equivalent plywood.
    
    Plywood is fine, especially if you are using .75" over .5" or more 
    subfloor.  The key to proper installation is to nail EVERY 4" in a
    matrix. This may seem like over kill, but this will give you a very
    solid base for the tile. My preference for tile installation is to
    use FLEXBOND (available at Home Depot) which is a thinset mortar mix
    that already has the latex additive in the powder mix....so all you
    need to do is add water and mix to correct consistency.  Thinset mortar
    with latex give excellent adhesion to plywood.
    
    JBS  

Do you really need 1.25 inches of subfloor for tile?  I was thinking that 
3/4 inch would be sufficient.  Does it really have too much flex to hold
tile?  I assume it is sufficient for linoleum or the like.  But we really
want to put tile down.

Ed..

    I decided NOT to put tile on my 3/4" floor. Any flexing is hardly
    noticeable, if at all, but it doesn't take much to crack a tile/grout.
    
    IMHO, 3/4" is not enough...
    
    Edd

    When I re-did the upstairs bath I put down a new subfloor of 3/4"
    plywood.  I tiled with 2" tiles over this.  That was 2 years ago and so
    far haven't had any problems.
    
    George

    1308.31
    
    To clarrify, the advice of 1.25" base floor thickness was for the 
    COMBINED thicknesds of the subfloor -AND- underlayment.  Assuming
    an original subfloor of 3/4" T&G plywood, an additional 1/2" minimum
    underlayment would be required over the subfloor to acheive the 1.25".
    The underlayment should be layed so that seams between boards are not
    directly over subfloor seams.
     
    I have tried tiling directly over 3/4" subfloor (no underlayment), and
    the tiles cracked right along a seam between plywood subfloor panels. 
    I have not had a problem since going with the 1.25" rule.
    
    JBS
    

So if I have no subfloor in place now (just joists), I should put down 1/2
inch plywood.  Then, going in the other direction, put down 3/4 inch 
plywood.

I assume I have to have all of the plywood down BEFORE the tub and toilet
can go in.  Is this true?  If I was only putting 3/4 inch plywood on the
joists, it would be easy.  I could leave the plywood down, but not screwed
down.  Then the plumber could lift the plywood, do the plumbing, and then
throw a couple of screws in and put the tub and toilet in place.  I would
then be tiling up to the edge of each of these.  With the need to have the
plywoods interlocking (so to speak - two layers), how do I handle the
plumber's work?

Ed..

    Ed,
    
    	I'm in the process of doing the same thing.  The only plumbing
    access I need that has to do with the floor is the tub drain.  There, I
    will leave a cutout in the subfloor. Since the tub sits between two walls 
    The cutout will be hidden.  If you need to run plumbing under the floor
    then it sounds like that should be done before the floor goes down at
    all.  The connections should be able to be done after the subfloor is
    installed.
    
    George
    
    George

    	I have a question on the toilet flange.  There is a a 3/4" subfloor
    in the bathroom.  That's going to a 1 1/4" subfloor.  How do I raise
    the flange to accomodate the additional sub-floor thickness.  I will
    tile up to the flange so the floor tile thickness doesn't come into play. 
    Unfortunately we're talking cast iron pipe here.
    
    George

I have yet another variation on the theme. We have an existing 1/2 bath
which has a linoleum floor. Under that is the 3/4" subfloor, with 1/4"
plywood installed at right angles and screwed down every 4".

We have decided to tile the floor. Right now I'm tempted to just tile over
the linoleum. The tiles are 4" square tiles. I realize that I am 1/4"
light on the plywood but the floor does seem solid.

The alternatives are:

	Take up the linoleum and add another layer of 1/4". I think this
	might be tough to do without continually running into conficts with
	the nails and screws already in place in the other two layers.

	Take up the linoleum and the 1/4", then add a new 1/2" layer. This
	would be a royal pain in the a%^ and seems like overkill.

Any strong objections to just tiling over what is there? 

							Mark

    Re 38
    You can buy a 'wax ring' which has an extended portion that will extend
    downward into the cast iron pipe. 

The problem is that if the flange is too far below floor level, then the
wax ring won't be compressed enough for a gas-tight fit.  Ask at a plumbing
supply store - I'm sure this is a common problem.

			Steve

    When we did my parent's bathroom, we had to add an additional 1/4"
    subfloor to level it, etc.  Because it was only 1/4", we could have
    made it.  However, the flange broke where the bolts held the toilet
    to it.  We ended up drilling out the lead seal, and replacing the
    flange.  That involved a plumber to re-lead (?) the flange to the
    pipe.  
    
    I don't know if it's an option, but when a downstairs bathroom was added
    to our house, the plumber cut the cast iron pipe and used the PVC pipe
    and flange, then connected to the cast iron pipe.
     

    
    
    spags sells a 'flange extension' kit for about 5.00 in their plumbing
    dept. Basically it;s a couple of PVC disks with holes and slots that 
    you bolt onto the floor flange inorder to raise it up after you tile
    over a bathroom floor, etc.
    
     The previous owner of my house had tiled the bathroom floor and did
    not do this. We used to always get a backflow of septic gas. After I 
    installed the flange extender, the smell went away.
    
    
    
     Bob
        

That makes sense.  You'd buy a new package of bolts too - these are usually
MUCH longer than you'd need, and you should be able to get a good fit with
new bolts.

			Steve

    I have bought 2 part epoxy paint in Sears
    
    
    				herb

    The time has come to update my bathroom. The bathroom has plaster walls
    and there is damage around the tub area. I hired a contractor to repair
    the tub area with updating the rest of the bathroom as stage 2 in mind. 
    He tore out the tiles, plaster, and plumbing around the tub. He did a 
    nice job with moisture resistant boards, new tile, and new shower plumbing.
    
    The question has to do with updating the rest of the bathroom. I want
    to replace the tiles which cover half the wall in the rest of the room
    with the same tiles as the tub area. The contractor wants to remove
    the plaster from the lower half of the walls, put up moisture resistant
    boards and tile over that leaving the top half of the wall the way it
    is (well, new wallpaper). The plaster, which has a skim coat, in this 
    part of the room has no damage.
    
    Removing all of the walls increases to cost of the job hence just
    replacing where the tiles will go.
    
    Do I really have to remove perfectly good plaster to create a good
    surface for the tiles to stick to? I realize that it's necessary
    around the tub area with all the moisture from taking a shower. The
    house is around 40 years old. If tiles will stick on plaster with a
    skim coat for 40 more years, I'd be happy.
    
    I suggested a new skim coat over the existing plaster and installing
    the tile but the contractor said that wouln't work. Any opinions
    out there?   Thanks.
    
    

    
    I guess that he's keen to do a quality job, and that would be
    to replace the backing board.  He'll also take time to square it
    up at the corners & coins.
    
    If old plaster is reasonably dry, stable and flat then it can be
    washed down with a stablising solution and tiled. The risk is that
    if there is moisture in the walls, it will eventually cause salts
    to (efflourescence) build up behind the tile adhesive and push the
    tiles out.
    
    Did he stick the wall with a moisture meter?
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

     I went through exactly the same thought process about trying to save 
money by removing the tiles and keeping the plaster, but with the tiles 
that came half way up my kitchen walls.

     I attempted to remove tiles.  There is no way to remove the tiles
without damaging the plaster.  There is no point in trying to repair the
plaster.  If you're trying to save a little money, then just gut the 
entire room yourself.  It will take two people six hours, including 
cleanup. 

    Hi,
    
    Has anyone out there installed pedastal (sp?) type sinks?
    We are renovating a half bath and we were thinking of installing
    a ped sink instead of a vanity style.  Thing is, there was a 
    vanity style there before we ripped it out.
    
    Any info/help on this out there?
    
    Thanks
    Deb

What is it you'd like to know other than the obvious things about
most probably needing to refinish the floor which was beneath, and
almost all of the wall which was behind the vanity?

A pedestal sink normally is secured at the wall and may or may not be
secured at the floor as well. The drain is normally down through the
pedestal, and the supplies may be either through the wall into the
back of the sink or up through the pedestal, depending on the installation.

-Jack

    When I installed my pedestal (Kohler) I had to add a support inside
    the wall. I sistered 1X4s to the wall studs and then ran a 1X6 between
    them...(topview)
           --------                --------
           |  ||  |                |  ||  |
           |  ||  |                |  ||  |
           |  ||  |                |  ||  |  (make sense?)
           |  |------------------------|  |
           |  |                        |  |
           --------------------------------
    
    Once the wall was closed and finished, I attached the manufacturer
    supplied bracket to the wall into the 1X6 in the proper place with 
    the recommended fasteners.
    
    The bracket has a lip that catches and supports the bowl part of the
    sink. (It easily supported the sink WITHOUT the pedestal, but don't
    recommend you put any weight on the sink without the support of the 
    pedestal.)
    
    The pedestal then pretty much slipped under the bowl with a minimum of
    hassle. A couple foam spacers were supplied to elliminate ceramic to
    ceramic contact.
    
    Plumbing was uneventful.
    
    Edd

    
    
    	 	 last time I installed one it was a nightmare trying to 
    get the drain connected properly.. It was always drippy..I was told by
    a plummer they can be a real problem.. He suggestee using a 1.25in trap
    do to the space constraints.. indicated it would be much easier...
    
    Ron
    
    

    Gee, I should have waited to ask 'how' to install this type of sink.
    
    We are doing the half bath over from wall to floor, so we thought
    putting in the sink would be the least hassle, NOT!  Originally, there
    was  a vanity style sink which was bogus, so we decided on the
    pedestal.
    
    We didn't realize the plumbing was set up for a vanity style, and
    trying to fit the drain pipe inside the pedestal is not picnic!  My 
    husband ended up installing a 'drum trap' under the floor to do away
    with the J pipe inside the pedestal, seems to do the trick nicely, and
    we are running the water supplies up throught the pedestal with flex
    copper tubing.  
    
    Quite a bit of a hassle, I wish hindsight happened before the job, not
    after...
    
    Thanks
    Deb;))

    When I installed a pedestal sink, the drain pipe from the wall extended
    too far forward for the drain in the sink. Local hardware store had a
    flexible plastic pipe that was made to help DIYers. This flex hose took
    up the 3/4 inch difference so I could proceed.
    
    Another near problem was drilling holes in the wall for the hanger
    brackets. I nearly drilled thru the feed pipes that came down from
    above.
    
    Good luck!
    ERIC

    I am replacing the wallpaper in my bathroom.  Ive removed
    the old paper and found some minor mildew stains on the wall over
    the tub/shower.  Anyone know how to remove/treat the stains
    before i prep the wall for new paper.  I did a search for 
    this and couldn't find anything.  apologies if this is a repeat.
    
    

    Bleach
    
    Marc H.

    Use chlorine bleach.  If you are in the US, you can get a concentrated
    bleach in a spray bottle called "X14".  I think it is mainly sodium
    hypochlorite.  Make sure the room is well-ventilated when you do this -
    and don't wear anything you care about much since you are liklely to
    get bleach on yourself.
    
    /Charlotte

    You can also use Tilex (bleach is the main ingredient or close to it!) 
    which you can find in the bathroom cleaners section. It's quite powerful. 
    In an apartment which I used to rent, the ceiling was covered with mildew. 
    I used tilex in conjunction with a sponge and removed all the mildew. I'm 
    not sure what would have happened to the ceiling paint had it not been 
    white. Might have lightened the color.
                      Cindy
    

X14 and Tilex are just overpriced versions of chlorine bleach.  Regular bleach
works fine.

It usually doesn't take concentrated bleach.  In fact, ordinary
chlorine laundry bleach, diluted 3-1 or 4-1 (that's 3 or 4 parts water
to one part bleach) works well on average mildew.  It may take a little
bit longer to act, but it's much cheaper and slightly safer (it can still
bleach clothes and irritate skin).  Wear rubber gloves if you apply it with 
a sponge.

   Gary

We recently had to remove mildew from the ceiling over the shower, and were
also preparing to paint it.  The hardware store recommended tsp (trisodium
phosphate) and bleach.  It worked great...the directions are on the box.  We
also cleaned all the walls with a tsp and water solution.  Good stuff, but
you have to be sure to wear rubber gloves and not splatter it!

Laura

    Can you paint over mildew?  I took down some wooden shutters that had
    milkdew stains, some quite heavy.  I washed them with Spic and Span
    but the still have black spots.  I'm changing the color of the shutters
    anyway so dont' want to wash them again if I don't have to.  Is there
    something you can add to exterior latex stain to kill/prevent mildew?
    
    George

If you paint over mildew, it will still grow under the paint.  Spic N Span is
one thing that helps clean shutters, but to kill mildew you need bleach (or high
priced equivalent).

There is a mildewcide you can add to paint.  I've used it, but I'm not convinced
it works.

Elaine

	Anti-mildew additives for paint are at best a preventative, and then
	will only delay, not fully prevent, the onset of mildew. To get rid
	of mildew you have to kill it as described (with belach or other
	real killer), and to prevent it you have to remove the conditions
	under which it grows.

	Roy

    Well, since these are outdoor shutters I think the only way I could
    remove the conditions under which the mildew grows is if I could stop it
    from raining.  If I could do that I'd hire someone else to paint
    the shutters :-).
    
    Guess I'll have to rewash them.  
    
    Thanks, 
    
    George

    
    I've used primers with mildewcide after a wash down with tilex/tsp
    on various surfaces and have not seen any sign of the mildew in
    about a year (except in ONE spot where I missed with the primer).
    
    We also painted our wooden shutters with a gloss finish paint.  This
    provides a smoother surfact which is less easy for mildew to get a hold
    on, and is easier to wipe clean or hose off.  I think that mildew
    requires a continuous presence of moisture that is absorbed by the
    surface on which it grows - rather than from intermittent rain soakings.
    A good couple of coats prevents the uptake of water. (We used 3 coats
    on the shutters).
    
    Do you have large trees close to the house?  Often, the sticky
    fallout from the trees will provide a good growing medium for mildew.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

 Common bleach (Hypochlorite solution) wil quickly eliminate any mildew.

Ross
 

I have a mildew problem on the north side of my house.  I have minimalist 
landscaping (no trees or shrubs, yet :-) so that isn't the problem.  Last
time I did paint with a latex paint with a mildewicide additive.  It has 
held up pretty well for a couple years but is starting to develop once 
again.

Maybe if I build my house on a locomotive turntable and once a day...

Stan

>Maybe if I build my house on a locomotive turntable and once a day...

Recently, in a technical conference, there was a rathole about a revolving
building.  It seems that the (non-round) building would occasionally
damage a car that was parked too close.  A noter speculated that the
car owner would have a hard time explaining it to his insurance company.

    Hello,
    
    I noticed an ad in Down East magazine for a company in Maine which
    makes painted porcelain sinks. They look beautiful. Has anyone found a
    company in New Hampshire or Massachusetts which makes such sinks?
    
    Thank you,
    
    Linda who thinks it would be great for when we do our 2nd bathroom

Kohler advertises some pretty fancy looking painted sinks nationally.  They 
even have matching painted porcelain faucets, ceramic tiles (and more, I'm
sure).  Be prepared to pay the big bucks for hand painted.

You should be able to check any plumbing supply house that sells Kohler.

Elaine

    
    Check any issue of Fine Homebuilding magazine. There is usually a
    couple of ads for porc. sink manufacturers....one is in Vermont.

    
    I have a painted porc. sink (large deep single sink and a narrow, yet
    deep sink w/cutting board -> disposal) in my kitchen...sand beige to 
    match the counters.  There are no other decorations on it though. 
    Chagnon Lumber's Kitchen Remodeling dept is where I got it.
    
    

    I think this is the best note to ask my question...
    
    I need to restain the deck on my house.  Before I stain it I want to
    wash it to get rid of the mildew and whatever other dirt stains will
    come off the porch.  The problem is that we have a dog that likes to
    play/dig/etc. on the ground directly under the porch.
    
    Somerville Lumber (and other lumber yards) sell various chemicals to be
    used in washing decks before they are stained.  The problem is that all
    of them appear to be toxic (at least they say keep out of the reach of
    children).  Since whatever I use to wash the deck will get on and into
    the ground I am looking for something safe to use.
    
    Can anyone recommend what I should use to wash the deck to get it clean
    but still be safe for the dog?
    
    Thanks
    

You can cover the ground under the deck with hay while you are cleaning, and 
dispose if it when done, so it doesn't get into the ground.

Elaine

Most mildew removers basically consist of bleach in some form. As long as they
don't drink the stuff, it shouldn't hurt your kids. But be careful not to get
it on plants, which may not like it. And don't wear your favorite outfit when
you apply it: one drop on a nice blue shirt quickly becomes a white dot.

Brian

    You can buy decals for ceramic tile that can be fired in a kiln; I've
    done some, and they came out well.  They may also work on porcelain. 
    You would need to find a kiln (at a ceramics studio?) big enough to
    take a sink.  Might be tough finding one for a tub or toilet, tho. ;-)
    
    Carl

    Keep in mind that most of those cleaners (even straight bleach) is
    diluted prior to use, thus decreasing its toxicity.

What should the height be for the vanity in the master bath?

It seems to me that the height should be the same as the kitchen
counter or sink.

My reason is as follows:

1. The master bath is off the master bedroom - it's mainly occupied
   by adults - thus one would want a more ergonometic height.

2. The main bath tend to be shared by kids and adults - thus the
   "standard" height is appropriate.

Have I missed some logic?

Gim

	One difference between kitchen and bath is that kitchen counters are
	usually work spaces. This is generally not the case for the
	bathroom.

	Roy

    >>One difference between kitchen and bath is that kitchen counters are
    >>usually work spaces. This is generally not the case for the
    >>bathroom.
      
    You haven't met my daughter.
    
    George

	8^)

	I still think there's a difference -- much of the "work" in a
	kitchen takes place directly on the counter - chopping, slicing,
	etc. Bathroom activities usually use the counter as a place to rest
	things, but not actually as a work surface.

	Roy

From what I gather, bathroom vanity height is a compromise
based on the days when a house had only one.  It is also
the result of cabinet makers not wanting to stock three 
different heights.

Try brushing your teeth and/or shaving in the kitchen sink.
If you're average in height, you'll find the kitchen sink
height more ergonomic.

Same for bending over to use the sink.

I'm raising the height of the vanity.

gim

I raised the height about 2" above the norm. After using it for
a while, we (wife and I) find the height to be MUCH better
ergonomically.


Gim

    
      Anyone know of someone who will take away old cast iron tubs
      and old sinks in the Shrewsbury area??
    
      Thought about taking a sledge hammer and busting up the stuff
      into smaller pieces..for trash pickup?
    
      Thanks/David

	I was up at Vermont Salvage Exchange in Manchester, NH and
	saw they had several old claw foot tubs for sale.  They were
	asking between $400 and $800 for them.  Asking what they will
	pay for one, they told me from $50-150 depending on the
	condition, and they will pick up (probably not as far into
	MA as you are however).

	Also when I bought my house, the home inspector I had offered
	to remove and take away the tub if he could have it.  He said
	what he (and his buddies) have done is done something to remove
	the old porclian, drilled holes that will be used for water
	jets, and then redipped the tub in some new [purple] porclian,
	to turn the whole thing into one of those bubble jet tubs.

	I've heard others will take the tubs away and make outdoor
	planters out of them.

    
      The tub is a wall tub..not a clawfoot..so I don't think there
      would be any takers..who'd pay me..
    
     thanks/david

   Well... you could always put the ad in and see if you have any
   takers... worst case, offer it free to anybody who will come and take
   it away...
   
   Just a thought,
   
   - Tom
   

    I got rid of my entire bathroom (tub, sink, toilet) by offering them
    free to anyone who'd take 'em...
    
    Edd

I also live in Shrewsbury too.  When I re-do my bathroom. I break the cast iron
tub into managable pieces and call a scrap metal dealer in Worcester which I
don't remember the name.  They picked up the whole thing but I have to move it
out to the side walk. They won't pick it up if it is inside the house.  It is
Free of charge as long as they can get the cast iron free.

Try to call around, I know someone will do it for free.  As far as the sink,
you can probably put it out with the trash. I believe they will pick it up,
because they picked up refrigerator, hot water tank, sofa, etc......

Pak

    I am planning to have our bathroom remodeled. Plans have been
    accelerated because one of the faucets in the bathtub area is stripped 
    inside and cannot be turned off completely (right now I've doubled the
    washer so you don't have to turn it completely to shut the water off.
    This will obviously not last very long. Tried getting it replaced, but
    I was told that since I can't even determine what brand it is it will
    almost be impossible to find a replacement. I don't know how old it is,
    but the house is over 40 years old). Because I would like to act fairly
    soon on replacing the faucet, and getting the rest of the stuff done at the
    same time, I've only gone to one contractor. (Yes, I know I should get
    3-5 estimates, but this takes time and the holdiays are about). He has
    given the following estimate on the work, and I was wondering if this
    seems reasonable. I have really have no clue since I've never had a
    bathroom done before. I would appreciate hear the vast experience you
    people have on this topic. Here is what he proposes.
    
    - take out old tub, bathroom enclosure (plastic), and shower door.
    - replace tub with jacuzzi tub, incl. pumbing, and electrical work.
    - tile the bathroom enclosure (wonderboard with cement skim coat
      underneath). (Note, not tiling entire bathroom wall area, just
      bath enclosure)
    - replace current shower with anti-scald unit (single handle mixing
      unit) 
    - Replace vanity and top with new, larger one (18x30 wood vanity, with
      19x31 marble top)
    - replace sink faucet.
    - replace lenolium floor with tile floor
    - I forget if replacing the toliet was in the deal, but it maybe.
    
    24 mo. warrenty on parts and labor.
    Estimates it will take him about a week and a half.
    
    PRICE $5000
    
    What do you think? (He originally quoted $6100, but we told him we
    couldn't do that). The bathroom is quite small, so the floor tile job
    should be small (floor area ~30sqft), and we planned the new vanity so
    the sink pipes don't have to be moved.
    
    Parts should probably cost around $1700-$1900. Giving 8 days at 8 hours
    labor costs around $50/hour. Is this reasonable, and is the amount of
    time it will take seem reasonable?
    
    BTW, the guys name is Stephen Murphy, Home Interior Improvements,
    Sudbury.
    
    Thanks for any advice,
    William

   I don't have any info on remodeling costs, but I have a comment..
   
   in the FWIW department - you may not be able to replace the stripped
   faucet, but you can probably get new faucets and adapters to fit the
   existing hardware.  I replaced faucets in the shower once, and all the
   new faucets fit onto a square fitting. Well, the fitting I had was
   round and ribbed all around - definately not a match to anything they
   sell today.  I was able to find hard plastic hardware that converted
   from the ribbed fixture to the square faucet, and all was well.  
   
   If you're not already dead-set on getting this done immediately, you
   might want to check around with some of the larger hardware stores and
   plumbing supply stores..
   
   Just a thought,

   - Tom

Any surface that is tiled and has contact with water
should be waterproof. Durock is waterproof, wonderboard is
not. The fact that he will do a skim coat over wonderboard
indicates that he is NOT using Durarock.


Gim

    Granted, you could probably DIY for only the cost of the materials!
    On the otherhand, as one spouse who has had an evovling DIY whole 
    house remodelling job ongoing since 1987, I think a week and a half
    for a complete job in the bathroom could be a good deal if he is 
    using quality materials and high workmanship!  You can't change your
    mind in mid-stream like us DIYers though!  I would hate to live in
    my home if I had had an architect design it all.  We had to have an
    architect deisgn the new roof line for the full shed dormer of our 
    last project in progress, otherwise we went with the "I think, why
    don't we, or wouldn't this look" method of construction!  Our house
    is no longer an Andy Lane cookie cutter!  

    For chuckles, you could always bring in another contractor to get 
    a guestimate with the same materials.  You can require this contractor
    to use the correct waterproof board.  Putty soft walls in the bathroom
    are really gross!

    justme....jacqui

Hi William,

We remodeled our bath last April and ended up spending around $5000.  Our 
situation was similar to yours and we took a similar course:

	replaced all fixtures
	replaced and tiled tub enclosure
	tiled floor

What's different from your situation is that we stripped the room all the way
down to the studs, relocated all our fixtures, and rewired, which for me meant 
bringing in a plumber, carpenter, and electrician.  I did the "unskilled" labor
on the project myself -- demolition, clean up, trim work, and installing light 
fixtures. 

We also had an unanticipated expense:  when we took up the bathroom floor, we 
discovered that a previous renovation had weakened the joists under the floor 
by cutting deep notches to run the pipes.  In some places the joists were 
whittled down to about 2X3.  We chose to spend extra time reenforcing the 
floor and rerouting some of the supply and waste pipes.  

That said, I think $5000 is a bit high for your project.  You're not gutting and 
starting over, like we did.  The number that stands out for me is that $50/hr 
labor quote.  You can do a lot better in this economy and still get high-quality
work...  Other people's mileage may vary, of course.

Scott J.

    I'm about to wallpaper my bathroom with prepasted vinyl paper.  A few
    notes (and some "helpful" friends) have recommended using paste on
    prepasted wallpaper for better adhesion.  I'm a little confused on how
    to do it this way.  My guess is that I dilute the paste (I think I've
    read 2 parts water/1 paste) and apply it as if it weren't prepasted,
    i.e. no soaking in the trough.  Is this right?
    
    A quick reply would be helpful, since I really mean that I'm about to
    wallpaper this afternoon.  Yes, I know I shouldn't be asking for a
    quick answer the morning before a holiday, but I'm sick of showering by
    drop light.  :-)
    
    Jamie

    I wouldn't use paste and pre-pasted paper.
    
    The pre-pasted paper works fine without extra paste. Don't waste your
    time.
    
    Marc H.

    I have used paste on prepasted paper for the bath and used it without
    diluting it.  The paper has been there 5 years with no sage.  I do not
    have a vent fan and enjoy very steamy hot showers.  I would recommend
    full strength.
    
    Regards;
    
    Doug

There is no need to use paste on prepasted paper.  However, the usual
instructions which come with prepasted paper omit a very important step
which those using paste know about - "booking" the strip.  After you soak
the strip for the recommended time, pull it out of the water, lay it flat
on a table and draw the ends in so that pasted-side meets pasted-side (ends
meet in the middle).  Leave it for 30-60 seconds before pulling it apart
and then applying to the wall.  This will significantly increase the
strength of the paste.

Using a wallpaper primer such as Muralo Adhesium also makes things go easier.

				Steve

    
    
    I do alot of wallpapering and I have also papered my bathroom with
    a pre-pasted textured wallpaper, also with no venting fan. I strongly
    recommend using a product I bought at Home Depot called Activator, it
    is specifically made for activating the paste on pre-pasted wallpaper.
    It increase the working time of the application, makes for a stronger 
    adhesion and there's no need for a water trough. I also agree with the
    previous advice on booking the paper. You won't be disappointed. BTW,
    the stuff is cheap. I think it's less than $5.00 for size I needed and
    still had some left over.

    
    Yes, yes. Just paste and book the paper as if it was never prepasted.
    You'll get great results much easier than anything else.
    
    				Kenny

	    I think the problem with prepasted is that the wallpaper gets
	left in the water too long.  You only soak the paper for about a
	minute.  Otherwise the paste rinses off.

					Tim

The instructions usually say 30-60 seconds for the water soak.

			Steve

    Another random data point in the curve:
    
    We've wallpapered various rooms in the house, including the bathroom,
    and have always used pre-pasted paper without additional paste. Our
    technique has always been the same: 'x' amount of time in the water
    trough, then blocked on the worktable for 'y' amount of time.
    
    The only room that's ever failed on us has been the bathroom. The first
    two times, we attributed this to the fact that it was unvented. However,
    we've since vented and repapered the bathroom approx 1 year ago, yet we're 
    already starting to see curling seams and edges. I chase them down and
    repair with seam adhesive, but that's becoming a never-ending battle.
    The next time we repaper, I plan to use paste, either on unpasted paper 
    (which I assume is cheaper) or on prepasted.
    
    Just my $.02 FWIW...
    
    Freddie

	(Hope some of you Next Unseen people find this - I didn't
	want to start a new topic)

	Here's the situation:

	A few weeks ago, a friend called on me to paint her
	bathroom.  The original paint was peeling around the
	tub enclosure.

	I scraped off the peeling paint (latex), sanded, and
	applied a coat of BIN.  I then applied two coats of
	latex over the BIN.  It looked wonderful (note the
	past tense).

	She called me this morning to inform me that the
	areas where I sanded down to bare wall are holding
        up fine but the areas where I applied BIN over the
	original paint are now peeling.

	How do I fix this?  Should I sand the whole thing
	down to bare wall?  If so, it is okay if I use a palm
	sander?  Recommended grit? Will this take me
	forever? Is there another method (chemical or heat
	perhaps) to remove the paint & BIN?

	Once sanded, should I follow the same steps (BIN, 2
	coats latex)?

	Suggestions welcome.  
    
        Karen 

Surface preparation is the key to success.  Your proper surface preparation 
is holding up.  Your short cut isn't.

RE:                     <<< Note 1592.27 by SPARKL::SARGENT >>>
                          -< Latex+BIN+Latex=Peeling >-

>	She called me this morning to inform me that the
>	areas where I sanded down to bare wall are holding
>        up fine but the areas where I applied BIN over the
>	original paint are now peeling.

I have the same problem.  I did BIN/latex over an older oil based semi-gloss
and now have peeling.  The RIGHT surface preparation would have been to
degloss the old paint.  I didn't want to sand because I suspected it
was lead-based.  

I think what I'll try is to apply a heat-gun and scraper to bring back
the old surface, then degloss and start over with the BIN.  Anyone know if
this will work?

Thanx in advance,

Brian

    I have tiled walls in my shower area that are leaking water through
    them down to my kitchen. I am tired of re-sealing all the time so I
    purchased a wall surround. I was going to rip out the tiles and 
    sheetrock and secure the surround to the studs but the instructions
    state you can install the surround over the existing tile using this
    foam glue adhesive. Has anyone had any experience doing this?
    
    Thx,
    Ray

	    My parents had this problem and solved it with the tub surround.
	Do you want a 3 hour job or a 3 week job?

					Tim

re: .67

Are you sure that the studs are sound?  If they've been getting wet, they may 
not be.

Our symptoms was somewhat different, and our solution was to re-tile so I 
HAD to rip out the old stuff.  When I did, I was amazed that the whole thing 
hadn't collapsed.  The studs were all rotten about two feet up; I literally 
pulled hunks out by hand.  If it's standard drywall behind the tile, you may 
want to consider replacing that also.

Clay

In the bathroom, how can I keep water that accidentally spills out of the tub
during showers from rotting the floor?

The floor covering is some kind of vinyl, and it's fitted right up to the tub.
However, over the course of several years, water can leak into the seam and
gradually rot the floor. (The place is 5 years old now.) 

I've looked at what motel owners do to solve this problem, and they almost all
use ugly caulking. Another one used some kind of heavy plastic strip (which
looked better than the caulking).

So: Is there an aesthetically pleasing solution? Does the heavy plastic strip
work? Any recommendations?

Vicki Meagher

               -< Water Spillover from Bathtub Might Rot Floor >-

Although the "plastic strip" looks nicer, it leaves a little to be desired
from a functional standpoint.  I haven't yet heard of any product on the
market that seals more effectively than caulking.  If the area is taped 
and then the caulking is applied, I believe that a nice appearance can be
achieved.  Incidently,  I recently bought some "transparent" caulking which
I used on the exterior.... its hardly noticeable!

Cheers!!

    

    
    Try some of the clear caulk.  All you need is to put down a small
    amount.  Nothing like the heavy duty amount used to waterproof the 
    building!..:)
    
    JD

    I used an almond caulk that matched the color of the tub.  I put down
    masking tape first to help make nice straight edges to the caulk bead. 
    The bead is only about 1/4 inch wide and looks fine to me.  My wife
    didn't mind it either and she's a lot pickier about how things lokk
    than I am.
    
    							John

You might want to wait until the winter to do this, when the air is very dry and
any wood, etc. will have contracted to its minimum.  I myself caulked the same
kind of bathtub/floor gap in the summer and it looked fine until the winter came
and the gap expanded.

-Chris

    Why not add shower doors?
             Jim
    

    Wow!
    
    	It's been six months since anyone replied to this note!
    
    	Here is my question. My bathroom ceiling, after 18 years is now
    	flaking off. It was the sprayed on type that you see in the newer
    	homes. I scrapped it all off and resanded the seams of the
    	sheetrock. I'm now ready to paint the ceiling. Any suggestions
    	before I start? Should I add sizing to the ceiling before painting. 
    	Sizing is transparent so I can't tell if it was done originally.
    
    	What kind of paint should I be using? Seeing it looks as if it
    	would be painted for the first time, maybe I consider the prep
    	work to be the most valuable at this point.
    
    thanks,
    
    John
    

Don't use sizing.  Do prime it (I would recommend Zinnser 1-2-3) and use
one of the new paints made for bathrooms (Benjamin Moore has one, there
are others).

Add some ventilation.

			Steve

    I am trying to replace the drain in a sink and can't remove the old
    drain.  How do you do it?
    
    I unscrewed the thing on top of the sink bowl and can slide the drain
    up and down. The opening that sticks out of the side of the drain for the
    toggle prevents me from raising the drain high enough to pull it out of
    the trap or from lowering the drain enough to pull it out of the sink.
    
    The trap is made of plastic pipes.  Should I be able to take that off
    somehow? 
    
    

    
    The trap should have some threaded fittings; you might be able to remove
    enough to lower and remove the drain tail.
    
    Sinks are typically installed by making all the connections to the bowl
    (including mounting the faucet and the drain fitting, with tail) and
    then dropping the sink into the counter opening. It is conceivable
    that the only way to remove the drain tail might be to pull the
    entire sink.
    

  I live in an apartment whose bathroom has a Scovill Nutone medicine cabinet.
It is a tall cabinet with three incandescent bulbs at the top. It has 3 shelves.
I would like to put in a 4th shelf. The problem is I need not only the shelf
but also the brackets to mount it on.
  Can someone suggest a store near Littleton, MA that would be able to order
the parts for me? I tried Home Depot and they said they don't carry spare parts
for medicine cabinets, and they don't have the right catalog to order Nutone
spare parts from. Would I have better luck at a regular hardware store? What
about Home Quarters?
  Please don't ask me to improvise a shelf. I am not "handy" with things like
this. Though I could improvise the shelf itself, I am going to need the real
thing for brackets.

I would look in the Yellow Pages under (I think) Electrical supplies, for places
that carry Nutone, then call them to ask.

Elaine

Miami Carey is the same company as Nutone nowadays.  When I needed a part for
my M-C cabinet, I called Somerville Lumber (where I bought it) and they
directed me to the Nutone factory rep who placed the order for me (actually,
in my case I got the part, a hinge, free as the old one had broken.)

					Steve

    I have always had good luck writing directly to the manufacturer
    for parts list in order to get needed extra goodies for an item.
    Customer service is really quite good in most of the items I have
    requested.

    justme....jacqui

  I just scanned the Million Dollar Directory (the only national directory of
non-high-tech companies in the LKG library) and there is no listing for Miami
Carey or Nutone. That implies that both are divisions (or subsidiaries that
are not separately registered with the SEC) of some other company.
  Are there any readers of this conference who have a "national phone directory"
CD? If so, would you be willing to check out these two names and see if you can
come up with a phone number and/or address for either of these?
  In the meantime, if I think of it, I will look for and try an electrical
supply store.

    Bob, 
      I looked in the Nynex Yellow Pages Web page (http://www.vtcom.nynex/)
    Searching on Nutone gave me 11 hits. Here are a few:
    
    Nutone Authorized Parts 617-288-2928
    Nutone Service Center 800-427-0804 or 508-683-0800
    
    Debbie
    

    I just tried http://www.vtcom.nynex/ but get the message "Can't
    locate remote host www.vtcom.nynex"  Is there a typo?
    
    Ken