Conference napalm::musclecars

	From the March, 1992 CAMARO CRAFT, er, I mean CAR CRAFT:


                  ZR-1 Corvette   '92 Dodge Viper   '66 427 Cobra
                  -------------   ---------------   -------------

  engine (ci)          350              488              427

  0-60 (s)             4.9              4.8              4.18

  1/4 mile (s)     13.4 @106.7      13.1 @109.3      12.49 @113.84    

    Hi,,,
    If I were building a kit, of any flavor, my first stop would be the
    DMV. First thing you have to know is what emission standards you will
    have to meet when the kit is finished.
    	I think the near perfect combination for the world today, would
    be a cobra kit with a HO 5.0 from a late model mustang. That would
    give you very respectable performance and all the electronic wizardry
    to keep it clean and environmentally friendly. Plus all the bolt on
    go fast goodies that are out there for the 5.0's...
    
    
    				Brian...

    I think the Cobra kits just absolutely cry out for a new
    LT1 and a 'vette 6 speed....
    
    BTW I drove a 289 (306 BHP) made by the "Texas Chicken Rancher" in the
    mid '60s....it was an awsome machine to just BE IN...it went fast!
    
    I also rode in a 427 model the same day (I happened to be in the right
    place at the right time)...I was nowhere near being a good enough
    driver to handle THAT beast! You had to have complete concentration
    on what you were doing or that thing could get sideways faster than
    you could say "wheel-spin"! It was really Really REAAALLLYYY FASSST!
    
    
    /tb/
    

    There's a 427 "Arnst Kit" for sale at a hi-bucklot down the 
    street here in Bellevue Wa. Real 427 Side oiler/dual Quads and
    4-spd toploader in it too. Blue w/white stripes of course.
    
    It's a repo, said they sold it last year for 60K and 29K 
    wiuld drive it home! Too rich for my blood!
    
    Re

	RE: -.1:   One out here (Colorado Springs) just sold for $14K.
    	It was very plain and the owner said he had $19K in it.  


	RE: -.2:   Cool!  Say, I read an article a few weeks ago about
	a kit manufacturer in TX.  Apparently this company is putting
	in a pretty hopped up (super-cooled, turbo'ed) 4 cylinder in
	their cobra's.  They say they've got 50/50 weight ratio AND are
	very nearly as fast as an original 427!  Should be less prone to
	spin-out but you'd have to put up with the suped-up sewing
	machine/vw sound of the 4 cylinder.

	
	A friend just gave me a brochure from "Classic Motorbooks" (P.O.
	BOX 1; OSCEOLA, WI 54020) that has the following three Cobra
	books listed in it (the company sells books printed by various
	publishing companies):

	1)  COBRAS AND COBRA REPLICAS 1962-1989     #116148A     $21.95
	    Brooklands Gold Portfolios
	    "...Each is sftbd., 8"x10�", 180 pgs., approx. 300 ill."

	2)  SHELBY COBRA 1962-1969     #115173AE     $21.95
	    Brooklands Gold Portfolios
	    "...Each is sftbd., 8"x10�", 180 pgs., approx. 300 ill."

	3)  CARROLL SHELBY'S RACING COBRA     #115475AP     $29.95
	    publishing company unknown
	    by Dave Friedman & John Christy
	    "...right on target."  Carroll Shelby
	    "...strongly recommend it to Cobra freaks everywhere and to
	    all lovers of very, very fast cars."  Road & Track
	    "This book concentrates on the legendary competition Cobras.
	    Journalist John Christy experienced the era of the Shelby
	    team firsthand and, with over 400 of Dave Friedman's photos,
	    recorded its history in 'Racing Cobra'."  Hdbd., 8�"x11",
	    208 pgs., 407 ill."


	Hammer.

Hammer,

    I agree with Brian...in fact I had ordered a COBRA about 4 months ago
through S.C. Motorcars in Jay OK. I had them set it up to take a 5.0L HO engine.
I spent lots of time and money picking the right engine (1990 with 17K miles)
and then, with the help of Harry Hardman, my #1 auto consultant out of Missouri
City Texas, smooth out the ports in the heads and had a 3 angle valve job done.
Upon assembly I painted the entire engine (including plentum) glossy black.
Looks real neat...The only problem is that after the engine was complete and the
car was ordered, I transferred to Mass. where I had to buy a house...Of course
this took some $$$$ which I didn't have so I had to cancel my order 3 days
before delivery. So, as you can see, I was this || close to having one of those
babies to fool around in. S.C. Motorcars has been SSSLLLOOOOWWWLLLYY returning
my downpayment. 

    I plan to do one up in the future. In fact I added a 3rd bay in my garage 
for future use. 

    I have just started a new job and might miss the future notes here, but if 
you have any questions regarding my experiences please call or write...

Rocco Addeo   GAMBLN::ADDEO

dtn 297-9869



P.S.  Anyone want to buy a REAL nice 5.0 HO...?

    
    
    Brian & Rocco --
    
    	Yes, Colorado state law says that the engine must match the current
    emmissions requirements the year you register the vehicle.  In other
    words, if I were to finish a car in '92, the engine must have all hard-
    ware that such a standard engine in a standard vehicle would have.
    
    	I REALLY like the idea of the 5.0!  Forgive me for not thinking of
    it earlier!
    
    
    Hammer.

     The Arntz Cobra mentioned is one of the best kits made, and looks most
    like the real thing. I believe the company is no longer alive however.
     There is another outfit in Southern Calif, that makes the bodies out
    of aluminum like the original. In fact they are supposed to have a set
    of original bucks and jigs. From what I've gathered there is a company
    also in England that is supposed to have a set of original bucks and
    jigs also. After hearing this I must assume that there were more than
    one set of bucks and jigs to build these cars (makes sence).
     There are a couple of different body flares that were produced on the
    427 versions. You'll see this in some of the pictures and literature on
    the cars.
     I'm a real nut on these cars and have been since I was a kid. I see a
    lot of them at conquers de elagance (spell?) shows here in Calif. I
    have a lot of pictures of them as well. I was planning on building one
    one of these days but........well you know!
    
    BTW....Bill Cosby owns a black original 427 with twin paxton blowers.
    He had Shelby build this for him when Carrol built his own. Carrol
    Shelby's is supposed to be just like Bill Cosby's.
    
     The Southern Calif. aluminum bodies car was for sale at a Ferrari
    dealership about 4 years ago. They were asking $64K...it was used, but
    in fairly good shape. Some of the chrome was bigining to pit and bubble
    around the window and rear view mirror. I brought this up to the sales
    person and he said "well I'll tell you what, if you buy the car...we'll
    rechrome the parts for you". So, as I stood there in my ripped jeans
    and camoflaged sweetshirt with the pockets ripped...I had to politly
    decline his offer!
    
    Bruce
    

    The Autocraft Cobra produced in the U.K. has the alloy body and runs
    the 302 H.O..It is a nice combination..I recall seeing road test on it
    in all the magizines a few years ago and the performance was good.
    There are many Cobra kit makers out there and the quality varies a
    great deal. A couple makers try to produce actual copies of the original 
    as far as trim/appearance (use updated frame and suspension) and some of
    these parts are accepted as legitimate replacements by the Cobra
    registry. Contemporary out of Conn. comes to mind for door pieces etc.
       The racing "legend" was created by the '289' cobras. They won the
    championships. The 427 was never used by Shelby/Ford for serious
    racing. Shelby did not have enough put together to qualify the 427 for
    FISA (parts and pieces on order but not all together yet as required )
    and then Ford switched to the GT-40 and Shelby had no more backing
    for the 427. Once all the pieces came in they didn't know what to do 
    with all on hand so they created the SC427. There were/are a few full
    race 427's and a few SC 427's that were raced by privateer's some of
    which did OK..The Shelby shop did create one 427 Daytona coupe, an
    interesting sideline is I believe twice the coupe was tested on tracks
    at the same time the GT-40 Mk ? (V.?.. 427 unit) was testing and the coupe
    was faster..
     In all there are the 260/289 AC Cobra (SCX 2___), 289 FISA AC Cobra, 
    427, 427SC, 428 AC Cobra, (SCX 3___) 289 Daytona Coupe Cobra, and the
    427 Daytona Coupe Cobra.
     Nice toys..
    
    Jim 
    

    Hammer,
    
    	One thing that I found out is that if the company which you
    purchase the COBRA from has a dealers liscense then that company can
    you give you a MSO cert. of origin which can be defined as a 1966
    COBRA. This lets you get around and smog issues....
    
    Good luck,
    
    Rocco

    
    
    	WOW!  Good input!  I'd have to finish and then unload my '67
    	Firebird but in the mean time I'm going to study up on the
    	Cobra kits.  I just ordered those three books that I noted
    	earlier -- they should at least be interesting.  I like the
    	aluminum body idea; didn't know there were any being made.
    	Also, I had heard of Arntz about five years ago and thought
    	they were doing pretty good.  I'd be curious to find out if
    	they're actually out of business or not.
    
    	Hammer

    re.-.9...I see I got some numbers transposed  it should read CSX 2___
    and CSX 3___..... for serials of the 289/427 A.C.'s..
    
    Sorry
    
    Jim

    FYI-
    from '62 - '65 there were 665 289's produced...that included 75 with the
    260cid, 24 competition roadsters, and 6 coupes.
    
    there were 401  427's produced from '65-'68...that includes 356
    finished cars.
    
    /tb/ (who admits to liking this Ford product!)
    

    Tom,I'm sure glad you included the last statement in your last reply
    
    
    :-)
    
    I believe most any car nut of today and yesterday has a soft spot
    for the AC Cobra. 
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

    
    What Jim Woyak modestly didn't mention is that he used to own
    an AC Cobra.  A real one, and a 427 to boot.  I vividly remember
    doubting Jim once, and eating a family sized helping of Crow!
    PS Jim,  I still am interested in that 427 intake, send me mail....
    
    Tom
    

    re: .9 reference to the 428...that wasn't an AC was it?
    I thought (but that's rare :-)) that the 428 was produced with some
    fancy italian body on a longer chassis...AND they were all automatics
    (C6 I think?) Wasn't ACE involved somehow?
    
    /tb/(Gee this is the most I've written about Fords in ages!)

    What does AC stand for?  mr

    
    
    	AC:	Always Cool ?
    
    		Automatic Chicks ?
    
    
    
    	Hammer.

    re.-1
    
    You must be young....   :-)
    
    AC: 
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

As far as I know, the "AC" came from the the company in England that made the 
bodies.  They marketed a car in England by that name (fuzzy memory here).

Mark

    Yup it's the English company that made the AC ACE...Ace is refered to
    many times as the body/chassis component mfg for the Cobra...I can't
    find a reference to what the AC stands for though...
    
    ...isn't there an ACE owner in here somewhere?
    
    

    
    
    	I asked a guy here at CXO who is a British sports car nut
    	(forgive him) and is himself from England.  He ~believes~
    	that AC are the initials of the Owner/Originator of the
    	company but he can't remember exactly.
    
    	Hammer.

    	I've seen ACEs at the Monterey Historic Races (Laguna Seca.)  It's
    a British sports car, somewhat larger than TR6, relatively small
    displacement.  It was running against old Alfas & such.  I didn't get a 
    good look at the engine - sorry.  The pit area has too many REALLY 
    interesting open hoods to linger around the ACE. The 260 Cobra has a 
    somewhat different grille & front end, but otherwise seems to the 
    untrained eye (mine) like an ordinary engine swap into an ACE.  I think 
    I remember seeing something called an AC Bristol, as well.
    
    	427 Cobras were interesting.  The organizers ran Can Am and FIA 
    together.  Low Thumping noise = "Here comes a 427, take a picture!"  
    Demonic Howl = "What was THAT?!"   I can understand why the 289s and
    260s were more successful in their classes. 

    
    
    	That makes sense.  The guy I mentioned earlier said that the
    	original 260/289 Cobra's were built on AC car frames (don't
    	know which car/frame).
    
    
    	Hammer.

    Dick Waite at PKO owns an AC ACE, I believe he has had it since it was new.
    
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

re: the name AC

The short answer is that it stands for Auto Carrier.

A longer thumbnail history is as follows (from memory).

Auto Carrier was started by a London butcher named John Portwine in 1903. He
got together with a man named Weller (forget his first name) who was the
mechanical half of the partnership (Portwine being the money half). They
designed a 3 wheel delivery van (2 wheels in front, 1 in back) to be used
to deliever goods/packages through the small, congested streets of London.

Sometime around 1910 they Weller designed a 4 wheel 'light' car, with a
off the shelf 4 cylinder engine (Anzani). 

At some point in the teens, SF Edge got control of the company, changed the
name to AC Cars. Weller invented the 'Weller tensionor' for overhead cam
chains (used by many cars including XK series Jags). He also designed the
first 'light six', 2 liter OHC six. This was in 1919. The engine continued
in production until 1961.

AC made mostly sporting type cars up until WWII. Along the way they produced
a couple of record breaking cars in small displacment categories and the
first British car to win the Monte Carlo rally was an AC.

Around 1930 the Hurlock family bought the company.

After WWII, they made a 2-liter sedan ( a few convertibles were also made)
until 1953. That year John Trojerio (sp) made a special that caught the eye
of the Hurlocks (two sons now ran the company). This special was cleaned
up a bit and was the first postwar ACE (the name had been used before in the
1930's). The car was available at first with the AC OHC engine, around 1956/57
the Bristol 2 liter, hemi-head six became an option (originally designed by
a German for BMW in the mid-1930's, and taken over by the Bristol airplane
company as part of the spolis of war). The Bristol engine, although not OHC,
is much stronger and revs higher than the AC engine. AC engines produced, in
final form, 105hp whereas the Bristol engine was normally 125/130 and could
be made to produce 150hp, less reliably. AC Bristols (as they were called),
dominated the 2-liter SCCA classes for years. The cars a very light (1750lbs),
and were the first British sports cars to feature all independant suspension.

In 1960, Bristol stopped making their engine. That left AC without a 
performance option. They fitted some 2.6 liter Ford Zepher six engines to a
few cars but although the engine put out good power, they were heavier and
not too reliable. 

Enter one Texas chicken farmer! (and the rest, as they say, is history).

The first Cobras were nothing more than the latest AC chassis with a 260 Ford
engine/transmission and flared fenders. I know someone who has an early car
and it's amazing how little was actually changed. I've driven it a few times
and aside from the power, it drives the same as well.

Later of course 289 and 427/428 engines were added, as well as a completely
redesigned chassis and a much fatter body to accomadate the wide tires and
bigger chassis.

AC Cobras are still made in England by Autokraft using the original body
bucks, a stretched chassis (6 inchs more) and HO 5.0 liter Ford engines. I
believe Ford owns controlling interest in the company.

Oh, and yes I own an original AC ACE. I bought it new in 1959. It's covered
about 24k miles and it's totally original except for a repaint and new tires.
It has the AC engine.

(having now gone back and read the entire string...a couple of comments)


The 428 mentioned was a follow on to the Cobra. What happened was that Ford
stopped making the 427, Shelby moved on to other projects and AC was left
with a bunch of Cobra chassis with no body. They contract Frua to make a
coupe and a roadster, using the 428 Ford engine and automatic transmission.
(I *think* the last few Cobras actually had the police 428 engine and not
the 427 side oiler).

Anyway, AC built something like 50 Frua's before moving on to the ME3000
which is a Fiero like mid engine car that actually predated the Fiero by
10 years or so.

re: racing Cobras

A friend of mine has one of the Shelby factory prepared racers (289 version).
He ran it in SCCA years ago and was regional champ for at least one year if
not two. There is a picture of the car on the cover of one of the Cobra books
(the one that has several of them on the banking at Daytona...his is the
blue/white one I think). Anyway, he still has the car but it's apart and he
hasn't touched it in years. Sad.

    OK guys, I dug the books out last night....not that I doubt Dick's
    memory...as I mentioned this is my FAVORITE Ford!

    From "Collectible Cars 1940-1980"

    AC Ace 1954-63 - 225 produced

    "Superlative forerunner of the fabulous Cobra, designed by John Tojeiro
    with  not a little inspiration from the contemporary Ferrari Barchetta.
    One of the  classic postwar English roadsters: all-independent
    suspension; spartan leather  upholstered cockpit; full instrumentation;
    four-speed gearbox; lithe and lean  lines.  Minimal weather protection
    in the English tradition. Excellent  performance (100-plus mph, 0-60
    mph in 11.5 seconds). prominent in  production-car racing in both
    Europe and America in its day, but considered an  "exotic" even when
    new."


    AC Aceca 1955-63 - 154 produced

    A smooth version of the Ace roadster. One of the great design triumphs,
    with  lines that are faultless from any angle.  Composite
    steel-tube-and-ash body  construction was coupled with think
    insulation, roll-up windows, and walnut  and leather interior.


    AC Ace-Bristol 1957-63 - 463 produced

    AC's long-running traditional roadster with an engine transplant.  To
    provide  more power for the Ace, racing driver and engine specialist
    Ken Rudd suggested  AC fit the Bristol 100D2 engine, which yielded a
    115-Mph top speed and a 0-60  mph time of 8.5 seconds.  Rudd later
    developed three higher stages of tune.   The top Stage 4 produced 148
    bhp.  The clean and nimble Ace-Bristols dominated  the Sports Car Club
    of America's E-production, and one took the 2.0 liter GT  class win at
    Le Mans in 1958.


    AC Aceca-Bristol 1957-63 - 172 produced

    The grandly styled Aceca with the superior Bristol 100D2 engine.

    AC Cobra 289 1962-65  - 665 produced

    The first of the high-powered transatlantic hybrids created by Texas
    chicken  rancher and ex-race driver Carroll Shelby.  Ford's light
    efficient small-block  V8 was a natural for the low and lean AC Ace
    roadster, and was accommodated  with only a modest lengthening of the
    nose.  Took over completely at AC's  Thames-Ditton premises, which
    shipped body and chassis to California where  Shelby American dropped
    the engine and completed assembly.  Like the  Ace/Aceca, used a sturdy
    tubular chassis with all-independent transverse leaf  spring suspension
    - very hard but superbly controllable.  Immense performance  at low
    cost.  The first 75 production models had the 260-cid engine; others 
    used the 289.  A few late-production specimens were produced with the
    wider,  fender-flared 427 body starting in 1965.  A handful of racing
    Daytona coupes  were also built with special bodywork; most saw
    competition service only.

    AC Cobra 427  1965-68  - 401 produced

    The fastest street sports car ever produced, with mind-boggling
    acceleration courtesy of Ford's big-inch 427 mill slotted into the
    light AC Ace roadster. Off the showroom floor, this speed demon was
    capable of 0-1---0 mph in 14 seconds.  Similar to the Cobra 289 except
    for a beefed-up frame to handle the engine's huge torque output, plus
    coil springs in place of leafs and fatter tires and wheels residing
    under bulgier fenders needed to accommodate them.  More exclusive than
    the 289 model, and like it a sure-fire investment, provided you can
    find one and have the considerable "scratch" it takes to purchase it. 
    Not for unskilled drivers, and a real handful even for an expert, but
    there's just nothing to touch it for sheer speed and excitement. 

    AC 428  1966-73  51 coupes, 29 convertibles produced

    A rare combination of Cobra chassis engineering, lazy Ford V8 power,
    and  Italian high style.  The tubular Ace/Cobra chassis was lengthened
    6 inches and  topped by a brand-new hatchback coupe body styled by
    Pietro Frua.  Overall  appearance was quite close to the contemporary
    Maserati Mistrale.  As the  designation suggests, powered by Ford's
    slow-revving 428 V8 in very "soft"  tune.  In spite of its considerable
    size and weight, this car offered 140 mph  and 0-60 mph acceleration of
    about 6.2 seconds.  Virtually all examples were  fitted with the Ford
    C-6 three-speed automatic transmission.  Strictly a  two-seater.  Very
    high-priced when new, so production was low, both of which  make the AC
    428 quite desirable now.  Collector prices are reasonable all  things
    considered; it's far cheaper than a Cobra despite its greater rarity.


    From Encyclopedia of American Automobiles (1971 edition) FYI - on
    Shelby 1962-1970

    1 Shelby-American, Inc, Santa Fe Springs, Calif. 1962 2
    Shelby-American, Inc, Venice Calif. 1962-1967 3 Shelby Automotive,
    Ionia, Mich. 1967-1970 4 Ford Motor Co. Detroit, Mich. 1968-1970

    	The first of race car driver Carroll Shelby's Cobras used a 221ci
    Ford  V-8 engine in a modified British-built AC chassis. Early
    production versions  used a 260ci engine, but the majority of the 1,140
    Shelby Cobras had 289 or  427ci units.  In 1965 Shelby began building
    the 289ci GT-350 coupe, a tuned  and lightened version of Ford's
    Mustang, and this was joined in 1967 by the  GT-500 which used the
    427ci engine.  The Cobra was discontinued in 1968, and  the name
    applied to the Mustang-based cars.  At about the same time, 
    manufacture of the car was taken over by Ford, and continued until
    early 1970 when the Shelby line was dropped. Total production of Shelby
    GT's was 14,810.



    

(hmm, wonder why default next unseen doesn't work on this file)

I've got the same book. Good reference for basic info, but like all such
tomes, some things are left out. For instance, no mention is made of the
Ford Zepher powered Ace's. In fact they were available in several stages
of tune (again thanks to Ken Rudd) and the most powerful (170hp) was much
quicker than the Bristol's. In fact top speed approached the early Cobras.
(The body shape, although lovely to look at, is not particularly slippery
and it takes mucho ponies to get over 130/140mph).

There is a fellow racing on the vintage circut that has a 'factory prepared'
Zepher engined Ace. He claims to get over 180hp and the car is very quick.

Also, all original Ace's, Aceca's and Cobras are aluminum bodied. An almost
sure way to tell a kit/repro from an original.

    
    I received the books that I ordered (see .5).  The first two were
    basically a rip-off.  They were books made of copied magazine
    articles - not nearly what I was hoping for.  The racing cobra book
    was really good!
    
    Hammer.

Upon graduation from high school in 1972 I went to work for a MAJOR road
construction contractor in Colorado Springs.  Having tons of money I didn't
know what to do with I bought a slightly used 1968 Shelby GT500KR with a REAL
Cobra Lemans 428, 4 speed and even air conditioning (which I promptly 
disconnected).  It was an incredible car. One time I took a girl friend for a 
fast ride up North Cheyenne Canyon were she wet her pants out of sheer terror!!
One night my black horse was stolen and I have never seen it since.  
I'm still ticked off!!!!!

Chuck

P.S.

I still have the title I would be willing to sell.

    
    Chuck,
    
    	Let me know what the vin is and I'll look it up in the shelby 
    	registry for you. Someone may have registered it.
    
    	- A.J.

    This reminds me of an incident I saw once.  Around 1981, maybe 82,
    I attended a Ford/Shelby meet held at a Ford dealer in Plymouth,
    MA.  At the end of the meet they organized a cruise, and about 30
    or so of us drove our cars down to the Cape Cod Canal.  While 
    travelling down route 3, the staties came out of nowhere, and 
    picked this one GT350 out of the crowd, and pulled him over. We 
    all waited on the side of the road, until it was determined this 
    guy was in serious trouble and there was nothing anyone could do 
    to help him.
    
    It seems his car had no serial numbers in the usual places. Apparently
    someone must have noticed this at the meet, and reported it to the
    police, and they waited on the highway for him.  I have no idea what 
    the final outcome was.
    
    Rick

    
    RE .32
    
    Chuck, 
    
    Legally, don't you still own that Shelby?  I am not certain, but if this 
    vehicle does turn up in the Shelby registry aren't you entitled to
    claim it?
     It's at least worth a look!  Perhaps you could trace the changes of
    ownership back to the dirtbag that stole it!
    
    Tom
    
    PS If the insurance company paid out on a claim however, perhaps THEY
    are the rightful owners........
    
    
    

    
    Chuck -
    
    Talking to the boys at the Colorado Springs Police Dept, Auto Theft
    Division, they say if a car is found or obtained by the police for
    some reason, and they were unable to contact the original owner to
    inform him/her that they have it, the title becomes null-and-void
    at time of auction.
    
    But in this case... DEFINITELY WORTH LOOKING INTO!!$!$!$!$!$!$!$!$!
    
    
    	Hammer.

Hi Guys,

The Shelby was parked in my back yard while I was collecting all the parts to
restore her, so I didn't have it insured!!!!  It had a complete set of new
chrome and scoops in the trunk when it was taken.  The VIN # is:

	8TO2R21O27303657

Be nice if she turned up!

Thanks for the help!

Chuck
    
    P.S.
    
    I've lived here most my life, so the Police knew where to find me.

Once upon a time, way back in the 50s a Packard Phaeton was stolen out of 
a barn in Littleton.

It made the rounds of the restorers in the eastern Mass/southern New 
Hampshire area and eventually would up, along with another similar chassis 
under a sedan, in Hershey.

Well, Tom Mix (Foreign Motors West) is a Packard guru and he took one look 
at the car and remarked "I know this car.  I sold it to so and so in 1955 
and it was stolen a few years later."

He got on the phone and contacted the guy who flew down in a private plane, 
slapped his key in the ignition and fired op the car.

The cops impounded the vehicle and after some legal mumbo jumbo, the car 
was returned to it's rightful owner.  That prompted a series of 
buyer/seller renegotiations going back a couple of iterations.

Statute if limitations?  No such thing.  It was probably close to 30 years 
that the car was missing and the original owner got it back.  ...worth 20+ 
times what it was when it was stolen.

    
         I just want to say that I never owned a Cobra and never even got a
    ride in one. But with the number of people that claimed they have....
    the production figures have got to be around the 14 billion mark.
    I wish I had a nickle.......oh forget it!
    
    -john

    -john,
    he had a gt500 Shelby....close to a Cobra.
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

    
    
    I'll look up the number in the registry tonight when I go home.
    		
    		- A.J.

    
    Chuck,
    
    	That vin is not in the registry. I would suggest writing to them
    	with a copy of your title explaining that the car was stolen. On
    	the next version of the registry it will go in as a stolen car.
    	Most people (smart ones at least) check out the registry before
    	buying a Shelby. Who ever has the car now would have a hard time
    	selling it, although I'm sure the guilty party has long since
    	left the scene. Like a fool I forgot to write down the address,
    	if your interested let me know and I'll bring it in.
    
    	- A.J.  

A.J.

Yes I would like to have that Info..  Maybe someday it will show up, but I
suspect it was chopped to restore some other Shelby!  Maybe someday when I'm
rich and famous I,ll get another one (or an A.C. Cobra, or a Boss 429, or a
Hemi Cuda, or a .......).

Thanks for your help,

Chuck

P.S.

I am looking for a reasonably clean 1950 Ford 1/2 Ton Pickup so I can restore
a 1950 Mercury 1/2 Ton Pickup.  Any help will be appreciated!!

    
    
    Chuck,
    
    		not another pickup guy! Ech!  Here is the info:
    
    		Shelby American Automobile Club
    		PO Box 681  Sharon CT 06069
    
    		- A.J.

A.J.,

Thanks for the information.  I'm not to thrilled about trucks either, but
most people haven't even seen a Mercury Pick-up let alone own one... very
rare!!!

Chuck

< CSC32::J_KALINOWSKI "Forget NAM?....NEVER!" �ˤ��Ρ��� 84.38 >
                         -< WOW!.....you had one too! >-

    
         I just want to say that I never owned a Cobra and never even got a
    ride in one. But with the number of people that claimed they have....
    the production figures have got to be around the 14 billion mark.
    I wish I had a nickle.......oh forget it!
    
    -john


John,

Far as I can tell, there is at least one contributor to this file
who has owned an AC Cobra, with documentation to prove it.
Currently there are a couple of people in this file who now own
Shelby Mustangs.  One of these people bought some CJ parts from me.....
(AJ, any chance of getting the smog stuff back????? 8^)  )
However, I do wish I had a nickel for every Fake Z-28, GTO, SS396,
or Camaro RS/SS in existence!  

Tom

    Geesch Tom, even from Toyko you can be brutal.....
    
    :-)
    
    Actually, a repro Cobra would make me and most other musclecar buff
    happy.
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

    
         Tom.....I had one of those "IN RETROSPECT" posters of an 427 AC
    COBRA hanging on the wall of my cube. I get a-lot of walk in business,
    and Everybody that saw the poster had either driven one, crashed one,
    got a ride in one, owned one but never drove it, And the best one of
    all....(drum roll please...) Knows where one is hidden in a garage
    in storage, and the owner died.... ad neauseam... I wanna barf!
    I took the poster off the wall!   Speaking of liars; Did ya hear the
    one about the guy with the 63' split window vette......
    
         I think ya'all get the picture now.
    -john

    
    Hey Tom, whats up?
    
    You can have the smog stuff back, but I'll only take your heat-shield
    and s-tube in return, ha!
    
    As for faked cars, without a doubt, GTO's and SS Camaro,Chevelles are
    at the top. Although it's real tough to fake a 69-70 GTO now cause
    you can write to detroit and for 25 bucks get the original build
    sheet for your car.
    
    -A.J.

    -john...can I have your old poster of the Cobra?
    
    re. 63 split window Vette. Yup, I knew one of those guys too!....ME!
    got it from my insurance company for $810 in 1966. (so called "totaled")
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

    
    
    HA-HA-HA!!  I have such a poster in my office and I get the same
    thing!  Seems EVERYBODY knows somebody...blah, blah, blah, blah!
    
    ...I used to own a '67 Nova SS -- saw plenty of fakes in that scene!
    
    
    	Hammer.

< NUMERO::C_WILLIAMS "Hammer" �ˤ��Ρ��� 84.50 >
                         -< Probably the same poster! >-

    
    
    HA-HA-HA!!  I have such a poster in my office and I get the same
    thing!  Seems EVERYBODY knows somebody...blah, blah, blah, blah!
    
    ...I used to own a '67 Nova SS -- saw plenty of fakes in that scene!
    
    
    	Hammer.

RE John,

In this context I agree 100%.  Tall tales abound, particularly
when it comes to cars like the Cobra/Vette/Shelby.  However, the best
part of this file is that, for the most part, these BS artists steer
clear......

Sayonara,

Tom

    About 6 or 7 years ago I was browsing through a used car lot in
    southern New Hampshire that specializes in Corvettes and old muscle. As
    I had a 69 SS 350 Camaro that I was restoring I was fairly well read on
    the subject. I noticed a red 69 Z-28, great condition, cowl induction 
    hood, rally stripes etc. As I was walking tword it, out comes Joe
    salesman, telling me its an all original southern Z-28, numbers match
    etc, thay want only $7500.00. I give a polite "thats nice" and go to
    take a look. First thing I see is an automatic shifter, look under the
    hood and there is a SB chevy, but with 327 on the air cleaner, which
    did not have the cowl induction seal or housing, and manual drum
    brakes. At this point I was cracking up, with the 2 friends I was with
    thinking I had finally lost it. I ask Joe salesman if the car has any
    documentation, he gets defensive and says "a Z-28 in this condition is
    worth $10,000.00, but summers over and we want to sell it, all the
    numbers match, check for yourself."  So I say "oh, but I though Z-28's
    had 302 CID engines." He says " no, your thinking of a Ford Mustang."
    At that point I told him exactly what a Z-28 was supposed to have for
    standard equipment and that not only was this car a fake, but a bad one
    at that. He walked away without saying another word. I also remember a
    schoolmates original Plymouth Road Runner, with its original 318 2BBL.
    Some people just don't get it, do they?
                                                      John M.
     

      They are even showing fakes in HOT ROD magazine now.One of the recent
    issues shows a nice Chevelle with SS emblems on it,but they tell you
    right in the article that it is not an SS.So why put the emblems on?
    
                                             Rich

Re. .52

A guy down the block was rebuilding his 68 RR 383 (still factory blue-green).
He proceeded to tell me that the RR had a "440 Dodge Hemi" and he was having 
a hard time finding parts. I said, "NO DOUBT!!!  I understand those 440 Hemi
parts are almost non-existent!!" What a CLOWN!  (Needless to say, he was a
Fort Carson Dogie!)

    One of the worst I have heard of is a 72 Olds 442 that a friend used to
    see when he was at Wentworth Institute in Boston. The car looked to be
    in great shape, and this friend was restoring a 68 Hurst Olds, so he
    was looking at it when the owner came over. The owner (a day student at 
    the school, my friend was a night school student) told him that it was
    all original, his dad bought it for him when he graduated High School
    (this was around 1984 or so) etc, etc. He opens the scooped hood to
    show my friend the original... 250 CID straight six! My friend was
    laughing for weeks!
                                                             John M.
    

Re: -.1

I would like to see that 250 CID six with dual exhaust and 4-barrel Holly!!!
:-}

SET/MODE=TANGENT

I realize we are off the Cobra Topic somewhat, but WTH!
I remember a kid from my HS that owned a 74 or 75 Camaro Type
LT and he believed the LT designated an LT-1 350!  I didn't
have the heart to tell him the puny 2bbl small block under 
the hood was most certainly *NOT* an LT-1.

Oh yeah, I also like the goofballs that mix up engines "Its a 350
Cleveland" or like Chuck mentioned a few back, "A 440 Hemi"
What's especially funny is when they adamantly insist THEY are right -
and you are the one with the facts mixed up!!

Tom

	Little more in this rathole:

	Here in Finland it is even more 'funny'. The sales bozos in some used 
	car stores think they know *everything* about cars. And since American
	cars have been scarce here they think they can tell you just any
	bullsh*t of American cars to you. Like:

	Buyer: "That's a nice 'stang you've got there. What's the engine in it?"
	Bozo:  "It's a V8!"
	Buyer: "Really, which one?"
 	Bozo:  "Umm..it's a...umm...Hemi 350."
	Buyer: "I've never heard that Ford did a hemi 350.."
	Bozo:  "Yes, this is very rare model. They used to race these things
	        in Indianapolis in the '60s."
	Buyer: "Really?"
	And when you look under the hood there is the standard 2bbl 289...

	- Jyri -

	

     I have heard rumors over the past few months that Shelby was going to
    finish all the chassis he had and start selling Cobras again..A friend
    said he saw in Autoweek (I don't get it anymore) that Shelby is indeed 
    finishing out the Cobras..
     Any of you know what is happening..??..Are these big block or
    small..??. How about emissions etc..?..COST..??..

    re .59
    	I read the article.  It not only talked about the "finishing of the
    1965 production run, but also had some other Cobra articles.  
    	The production line had been setup for 100 big block (427) cars but
    only 60+ were built.  The rest of the frames were complete and stacked
    up, collecting dust.  Shelby is having a Cobra restorer complete a few
    cars a year and the price is "around 4 times what a replicar would
    cost".
    	Carrol is supposed to give the profits to a children's heart fund
    that he started.  
    	Alot of the parts are no longer available and the tooling is also
    gone so they have to retool.  It will also be a source for "new" parts
    for the "first part of the production run".
    	
    
    Regards, John

    
    From the May 1992 Hemmings, there were 19 Cobra kit cars that had
    prices listed anywhere from $22.5K to $79.5K, with the average
    cost being $42K.  From what I saw last year, it seemed to me the
    average cost of a finished cobra kit, with a 351, was around $32K.
    
    Also listed was a real 63 Cobra LeMans -- for $350K.
    
    And, just for a kicks, a 1963 Corvette Grand Sport, serial #001,
    completely restored, as raced by Roger Penske Chevrolet, $1,200,000 !!
    
    
    Hammer.

    
    
    This weekend a buddy of mine stopped in at the Maynard car show on 
    our way to Lussiers Corvette City. At the show there was 69 Gt500
    that a kid had just bought at the Museum of Transportation auction.
    I don't know what he paid but he had a for sale sign in the car 
    for 25K. It was in reasonable shape for a driver, 428cj 4spd. The
    car had been patched up and it was missing allot of under hood
    expensive things, but it looked o.k.
    
    My buddy has an 89 vette with 19K on it he was looking to trade for
    a midyear. So we figured we would take a ride up to Lussiers and see what
    they had on the lot. If he saw a car he liked that was anywhere near
    in the ballpark for its actual value he would have made a deal plus
    or minus cash, but I would have to say they were over pricing their 
    cars a tad... make that two or three tads.
    
    Anyway, on the lot they had a 69 GT350. My lucky day, I got to see two.
    This thing was a real piece-o-sh*t. From 20 feet it looked nice. From
    two feet I quickly added up about 15K worth of work. They were looking
    for 19,500. ahahahahahahaha. Anyway it had the original 351 with a
    4spd. Missing aircleaner, snorkel, heatshield, pollution, lift hooks,
    had wrong ingnition, carb, etc. etc. 
    
    
    			- A.J.
    
    ps  For the mustang freaks they also had a boss 302 and a boss 429 at
        Maynard.

    Hey A.J., did you talk to any sales droids at Lussiers?  The last time
    I went there (around 5 years ago) they had a lot of over priced cars,
    and the sales staff was the pits. They knew nothing about the cars, did
    not care if they were original or not, and just wanted to sell for a
    huge profit. 
     If your friend is looking for a Vette, have him check out Visones
    Corvette on Rt 1 north in Saugus. They have a huge selection of all
    year Vettes. They also charge top dollar, and seem to be in the finance
    business more than the auto sales business. I have never tried to buy
    from them, but I have looked around the showroom without any sales
    attacks. The few people I know who have bought from them seem
    satisfied. At the very least, its a good Corvette show!
                                                       John M.
    

    
    AJ,
    
    I was at the Maynard Show and saw that Shelby GT-500.  The kid selling
    was a dimwit.  It was very apparent he didn't know much about the car;
    
    1. He didn't know the smog and air cleaner snorkel were missing.
    2. He didn't know how to tell an original A/C car
    3. He didn't know the difference between the 428CJ and SCJ.
    
    Yikes, it must be nice to buy a $20k+ car and not bother doing your
    homework!  Must be one of those "Powered by Dad" hotrodders 8^)
    
    Tom
    

    
    
    Hey Tom,
    
    	When I was standing there looking at it, some guy asked him if it
    	was originally an air car. I wasn't paying any attention, that 
    	wouldn't have been you would it? Probably about 11:00 am.
    	I thought he was a dimwit too, but I didn't want to say that
    	in here for fear his old-man worked for DEC. Also, I knew the
    	kid probably paid 8 grand over what he should have, but I wasn't 
    	going to be the one to tell him. 
    	
    	As for Lussiers, we had an appointement with a sales twit. He was
    	acutally o.k., although I think they were loosing patience with me.
    
    	Around 1986 my brother bought a 66 427/390 roadster from them. He
    	paid around 18K for it. He's been happy, but it looked to me
    	like they were out for the big score.
    
    
    					- A.J.

    
    Yeah AJ, that was probably me......
    
    Tom

    
    
    
    Hey Tom,
    
    	You didn't let him on the fact that he was missing about 2000
    bucks worth of parts did you?  You didn't happen to check out hte
    job they did replacing those quarters did ya? All the shelby cars
    have the rolled inner fenders for the oversized tires. To do it
    right is a pain and most don't. Who ever did that car didn't do it
    right.
    
    Did you check out that boss 429? He was missing even more parts.
    Hey, I'm not trying to pick these guys apart, that would be easy.
    Its just that most people don't realize that even though its a shelby
    or a boss 429 its just not worth 25 grand when there is 4000 dollars
    worth of missing parts and it needs a 10K worth of body work and paint.
    
    
    		- A.J.

    Along the same lines in the most recent Auto Hunter there is
    a Boss 429 advertised the price a tidy $37,500... ouch
    
    
            Dean

As I mentioned in note 22.8, I'm interested in building a Cobra Replica from a
kit since the price of obtaining an original would be vetoed by the wife before
I even started looking.

Does anyone out there know of companies that manufacture and sell Cobra kits,
in either the U.S. or Canada?  I'm particularily interested in kits that
use aluminum vs fiber bodies.

If you do, and its not too much trouble, could you send me or post the name
and mailing address?


Thanks,
Dave.

P.S.  If I do build one, (my right hand it raised) I solemnly swear to never 
      try to pass it off as an orignal.

re: .69
>> I'm interested in building a Cobra Replica from a kit since the price
>> of obtaining an original would be vetoed by the wife before I even
>> started looking.

For most of us, the cost of even a replica would be vetoed by the wife.
You must have either a very secure job at DEC, or a very understanding
wife.  Or both.   8^)

Anyway, for starters, you should probably pick up a copy of Perterson's
"Kit Car" magazine.  All the major Cobra kit car mfg'ers advertise in
there every month.

Also, FWIW, in the current issue of Hot Rod, there's a story on some of 
the "crate" motors available from a bunch of different companies.  One of
them is selling a Ford 428CJ, specifically intended for Cobra kit cars.

Rick

Hi Rick,

I made a simple deal with my wife: I put her through school and I get a Porche
when she finishes - since she'll probably make two to three times what I make, I
figure it was a reasonable deal.

Since then, I decided the cost of maintenance (>$900/tune up) and insurance
(>$1500/year), plus the risk of theft, was too great with a Porche.  Ever since
high school, I've always wanted to have a hot rod so I decided that building one
would be more fun than going out and buying one off the shelf.  Since we just
moved into a house with a 1200 square foot garage, and I fell in love with the
Cobra, I figured a Cobra Replica could be fun to build - and a real learning
experience to boot.

I did pick up a copy of the latest "Kit Car" mag and have sent away for some
info.  I will also pick up the latest "Hot Rod" and check out the story you
mentioned.

Thanks for the pointers,
Dave.

    
    Dave,
    
    There are over a dozen (if not TWO) manufacturers of Cobra Kit Cars.  I
    just spoke with a guy that just finished building one a month ago.  He
    did his right:  he spent his time studying each manufacturer and each
    kit.  The one he purchased was "the best" kit but the shipment was fell
    short some 360+ parts and he ended up spending a year getting the
    MIA's!  That company is now chapter 11, soon to be chapter 7.  These
    companies come and go QUICKLY and most of their kits are absolute crap
    so PUT YOUR TIME IN!  Okay?  I'll say it again:  STUDY, STUDY, STUDY
    the kits and manufacturers!  Go to the factories and talk, talk, talk
    to people!  Best to put some time in and save some headaches.
    
    BTW, most kits run ~around~ $15K.  By the time everybody is done, they
    have ~around~ $30K in them.  If you try to duplicate the 427's "to a
    T", plan on a LOT more.  I've seen quite a number of such kits in
    Hemmings Motor News going for $75K - $80K.  NO JOKE - these were KIT
    CAR versions!
    
    
    Hammer.

Hammer,

Thanks for the note.  Since writing the first note on this topic I have
made A LOT of inquiries from kit manufacturers all over the U.S. and Canada.
I'm still waiting for some info from some of them.

What you said was what I learned quickly.  It will take a lot of time to make
the right choice.  Fortunately, it's a dog-eat-dog market and manufacturers
aren't afraid to spred some dirt about thier compeditors.  One dealer I talked
to sent me a couple of articles about some "shadey" kit makers. One was the
company your friend delt with (I'm sure.)  There was another company but in 
keeping with the rules of the conference, I wont mention any names.  Just for
fun,  I contacted them (they had 800 numbers) and got some really "interesting"
replies.  If anyone wants to hear about it, they can send me mail or call
me (DTN: 638-6949)

I have lots of time, and I'm in no hurry so this will be a long term project. I
dont intend to make any commitments until the fall or early next year.  I have
decided on an engine and figure it will take me some time (and money) to find it
and fix it up the way I want it.  I also have lots to learn in the mean-time.
Since high school, I've always wanted a unique "muscle car" and fell in love
with the Cobra.  However, while all my friends were putting oversized pistons
into thier dad's Monte Carlo, I was out learning to fly sail-planes.   Now it's
time to relive my youth....

I'm glad I found this conference because it offers an incredible wealth of
knowlege someone like me needs.  I just hope nobody looses patience with my
questions...

Thanks,
Dave.

    Dave,
    I don't believe anyone will get upset with your questions. I won't,
    cause thats how you learn.....
    I'm not sure where your located... So I'll add a few comments from
    someone that has been there...(building cars from the ground up)
    Tools and equipment ... you'll need them. What do you have now? Maybe
    a welder or torch will be needed to "fit" one of those kit brackets..
    If you don't have these...make friends with someone that does. There
    seems to always be someone around here that needs me to fab a
    bracket for their homebuilt kit.
    
    TMW...Jim
    
    Stay Tuned friends...
    I'll be releasing some info on the latest "non-muscle car" that's in
    the works...

    I'm located in VAO - Vancouver.  Probably quite a ways from WFO.
    I do appreciate the offer, none the less.

    I have a faily comprehensive tool kit but most of the wrenches and
    sockets are all metric.  I lack a lot of the special tools needed
    for doing heavy duty engine work, like rebuilds, but that is another 
    cost I have factored into the project.


    Dave.

    P.S.  This discussion might be better continued in the "Kit Car" note.

    	"Kit Car" note?  I didn't know there was one!  Where is it at?
    
    
    	BTW:  The company that guy used was somewhere like Nebraska or
    	North Dakota or some other ye-haw state like that.  There is
    	another company that comes out of Florida.  They have this great
    	deal where they sucker you into becoming a rep for them for ONLY
    	five hundred dollars ("And if you act now...").  They have a
    	slew of phone operators calling people trying to sell them on
    	the idea.  In the end, someone pays the $500, ends up not following
    	up on the  purchase, and the company keeps the $500.  I admit,
    	many years ago when I was a young engineer with a new job, I was
    	suckered into this scheme.
    
    	Hammer.

    There's a kit car note at topic 23 in DLOACT::CARBUFFS. KP7 or select
    to add it to your notebook.
    
    Harry
    

Sorry,

Wrong notesfile.  As .-1 mentioned, its in the CARBUFFS notesfile.

Fargo, ND to be exact and Miami FL.  Both these outfits are very SLIMY.
I went through the same BS where the Miami company tried to sell me a "once
in a lifetime" offer.  When I wouldn't commit, the guy hung up on me!!  Two
days later, another salesmen, from the same company, called back with yet
another "once in a lifetime" offer.  I found it most amusing.

Both claim to have the "best" replica on the market.  What that means is
vague.  I pointed out to one that they claim the have the best replica, yet
recommend a 302 engine for their kits.  

"That's interesting" says I, "didn't the originals have 427s???".  

"Well yes, uh, but if you like you can put a bigger engine in if you want."

"So, does that mean you will replace the frame if my bigger engine tourques the
frame into a pretzel?"

"Well we only cover what's in the purchase agreement".

Which is another crock......Sorry, getting off topic.....

Anyone read the latest issue of "Specialty Cars"??  Seems a gentleman from
Autokraft (his name escapes me right now), claims Carrol Shelby has no right to
call his latest "Cobras", Cobras.  Claims the original Cobra was designed and
built by "the skilled craftmen" of Autokraft and Shelby did very little, if
anything, to enhance it.  However, interviews with Shelby and a couple of Ford
engineers that worked with him on the Cobra say otherwise.  It does have some
interesting history in it.

Cheers,
Dave.

    
    
    HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!  Someone phoned me up last night and told me that
    there's an article in the latest (July?) issue of Car & Driver about
    Carroll Shelby and his latest Cobra's.  As most of you know, Carroll
    has some (47?) left-over 427 Cobra frames that he has decided to finish
    building Cobra's out of.  Well apparently it was a FRAUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    The article states that Carroll paid some guy to build the frames and
    set them outside so they'll rust enough to look authentic, then he
    talked the DMV into re-issuing him 47 titles that he "lost in a fire".
    
    On top of this, he once said that he wasn't finishing these up to make
    money; he said he was going to sell them at "reasonable" prices.  Turns
    out his "reasonable price" was around $500K because the article mentions
    that one person has already paid Carroll $480K (or so) for one!  Geez, I
    always wondered about this guy, bein' Texan an' all (hee-hee), thought
    he had a bit of an ego problem, but now I've really lost any and all of
    the respect that I had for the guy.  What a way to ruin a career!!!!!!!

From the latest issue of Specialty Car magazine:


    "...For the last seven years he [Carroll Shelby] has been engaged in a
    an on-and-off litigation with Ford Motor Company over the use of the 
    Cobra name.  This dispute has apparently been resolved.  Recently, the
    Los Angeles Federal District Court handed down a ruling that Ford had
    abandoned the 'Cobra' trademark....."


Pending an appeal by Ford, you can now put wheels and an engine
on a barn door and call it a 'Cobra'!!

Cheers,
Dave.