Conference 7.286::digital

    I'm surprised that the level of security had not been tightened
    previously. In Ayr we now have to pass through turnstiles to enter and
    exit the building with card access to the building and secure areas
    internally.

    Best however is on the way out where we have to hit the big red button
    to see if we have to pass through an airport like metal detector and
    get our bags searched. Hit the button - green for OK - red for stop.
    
    1984 - 12 years on?

    Fraser_B

    I would imagine that they are mainly looking for chips, although they
    did mention chemicals and weapons.  I know that this seems draconian to
    Americans, but when I visited France (a number of years ago) department
    stores inspected handbags and packages.  Too bad about the badge
    readers, though.
    
    Mark

    
    I guess we'll have to start taking chips out in our pockets now.
    
    ed

    
    Laptops are going to be a _big_ sticking point, for both employees
    and customers.
    
    >HOW WILL LAPTOPS BE TREATED UNDER THE PROGRAM?
    
    >Company or personal laptop computers will need to have a Personal
    >Computer Sticker attached to them. To obtain a sticker for a company
    >owned laptop you must bring an appropriately signed property removal
    >pass to Security. To obtain a sticker for a personally owned laptop, a
    >bill of sale must be shown. All other personal property that could be
    >confused with company assets should be registered with security upon
    >arrival to the site.
    
    I can see it now:
    
    Security: Excuse me, I need to see your sales reciept for that laptop
    	you are carrying.
    CEO of XYZ corp.:  What?  I don't have one - It's a corporate one.
    Security: Well, in that case, I need to see your property pass.
    CEO: A what?
    Security: A property pass.  What's your badge number, and name, please?
    CEO: J. Doe.  Badge number One.
    <A moment passes>
    Security: I'm sorry, you don't seem to be an employee.  I'm afraid you
    	can't take that in with you.
    CEO: I'm not a Digital employee!
    Security: Well, unless you produce a sales reciept, I can't let you
    	take that in with you.
    
    etc.
    
    

When I first saw this, I thought the laptop problem would be more serious,
as in the previous reply, but on a more careful reading of the memo, it's
clear that they won't be asking the CEO of XYZ corp for his sales receipt.

Sales receipts are required to get the "Personal Property" sticker.  Clearly
this is intended as a convenience for regular HLO employees and frequent
visitors.

Others will do what you've always done with personal property (some sites
used to insist I do this with my cellular phone) -- sign it in and out in
the personal property log.

/john

    I'm also surprised that Hudson didn't have these measures a long time
    ago. Onsite at other semiconductor fabs, the security is all that is
    mentioned, plus some. Many sites do not allow non-company laptops to
    be brought in by employees or visitors for any reason, to prevent any
    possibility of copying proprietary information. Fax machines and
    copiers are closely guarded and keyed with access numbers. And personal
    searches may not be confined to "bags and briefcases".
    
    Intel and AMD have had tremendous problems with "shrinkage", which is
    basically employees walking out with thousands of dollars of CPU chips
    in a single shot. Weight for weight, those chips are worth more than
    gold, and they are untraceable once they are stolen. Digital can't
    afford to see chips or proprietary information to go missing, so I
    think that the security steps are well-warranted.
    
    Geoff

    re: Note 4393.6 by ZPOVC::GEOFFREY 

    Checking people bags will not prevent someone from stealing
    proprietary information.  The network work both ways.

    I believe the new policy was put in place to try and curb hardware
    theft.  In the 12 years I have been in Hudson, I have seen just about
    everything go missing.  I had every board taken out of a workstation of
    mine. �'ve had memory taken out of my PC and I remember an entire
    VAXstation 3500 monitor and all disappearing. The latest thing to go
    missing was Ed Caldwell's Hinote, it was removed from the person that
    was setting it up for hims office and never seen again.

    -Bruce

    re: .7 "The network works both ways"
    
    While I agree that the measures aren't 100%, they are a good start.
    And as far as the network is concerned, while our firewalls can't
    preempt out-going proprietary data, they can at least provide a log
    of who, what, when, and where so that action can be taken against
    the perpetrator.
    
    So it was Caldwell's personal loss that finally broke the camel's back?
    Reminds of the time in Houston where the fine for running a red light
    jumped from $15 to $150 in one shot.  The reason: the mayor's limo got
    nailed by someone running a red light ...
                                          
    Geoff

    Re .0:
    
    > If you are unable to provide the necessary paperwork or prove an
    > item is personal property, the item will be held by Security and the
    > issue will be worked through your manager.

    If Digital "holds" any of my property, I will immediately go to the
    police and charge Digital, the acting personnel, and Ed Caldwell with
    theft.
    
    My manager can "work the issue" with the judge and prosecuting
    attorney.
    
    
    				-- edp

    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

     re .6
    
    And these new measures assure that chips will not be stolen just how?
    
    I can fit an Alpha chip in my pocket, I can fit several in fact. Its
    not that the new measures arent 100% effective, they are nearly 0%
    effective.
    
    ed

    it's not just to make sure chips don't get stolen...  it's to cut down
    on theft in general...
    
    sure you can fit a few Alphas in your pocket (several might be tough
    unless you have pretty large pockets)...  but how many boards can you
    fit?  how many systems can you fit?  disks?  cables?
    
    to be sure, these are the actions of a few that are inconveniencing the
    many...  but by closing the un-manned doors (and there are several)
    and asking people to show what they're carrying in and out, i don't
    think the security folks are being all that unreasonable...  it would
    be a simple matter to walk right out an unguarded entrance with a bag
    full of assorted parts and pieces that could cost thousands...
    
    for personal property, all they really want you to do is sign it in and 
    out like we're supposed to anyway...  no big deal...
    
    					da ve

    
    >sure you can fit a few Alphas in your pocket (several might be tough
    >unless you have pretty large pockets)...  but how many boards can you
    >fit?  how many systems can you fit?  disks?  cables?
    
    I'm not stating that I wold do ANY of this but,,
    
    	I have a coat with 4 pockets in it, two alpha chips per pocket per
    day.. that's quite a few $$. 
    Have you seen the size of disk drives these days? I could get 3-4 a day
    in the same coat. I think I could even get a laptop out under my coat.
    
    I'm just tired of the 'many suffer for the sins of the few" syndrome.
    When I started at this company, there were guards on the doors, but
    there were no locks anywhere in the building. Stockrooms were
    unattended.
    
    And if you are going to do something, take it the whole way.
    
    ed
    

    
      On the other hand.....
    
      I take it as a positive sign that DEC's now making stuff that
    	people want to steal...  
    
    
    						-al
    

We've been doing this in CXO for quite some time. I have a sticker
on my laptop that has to match my name and number as it reads on
my badge. 

Bag checks are done intermitantly and are pretty much useless as
far as I can tell. 

The last big bust here was with the cleaning people. Person one would
make a pass by desks and flip stuff (like radios etc) into the trash
can. Person two comes by later and empties the can into the rolling
trash container and walks off. liesl

    Ed,  

    I don't think Hudson has a large problem of people stealing inventory.
    Alpha chips and the rest of what we make for that matter aren't a
    easily traded commodity.  What they are looking to prevent is people 
    walking off with company assets. The new policy makes it harder and 
    they hope less people try.

    -Bruce 

>    > If you are unable to provide the necessary paperwork or prove an
>    > item is personal property, the item will be held by Security and the
>    > issue will be worked through your manager.
>
>    If Digital "holds" any of my property, I will immediately go to the
>    police and charge Digital, the acting personnel, and Ed Caldwell with
>    theft.
>    
>    My manager can "work the issue" with the judge and prosecuting
>    attorney.


Well, if you adhered to simple company policy and signed your personal 
property to the building in the first place, you'd have little problem 
proving it was yours.  If you're too lazy to stop and abide by the rules, 
the corporation isn't responsible for your sloppiness.

Ignorance is no excuse to involve the corporation and their attorneys in 
the pursuit of your ego.

I seriously doubt that you would have a leg to stand on, given the long 
standing policy regarding bringing personal property into Digital 
facilities.

re: -1

if my memory serves me right, the last time they found somebody steeling from
HUdson it was the Head of Security. now go figure!

ed

    I was kinda hoping that enough Alpha CPU's would walk out the
    door to create a black market.  Then the folks that sit on the
    Alpha Pricing Committee at Digital Semi could see just how far
    off reality they are...
    ;-)
    Kratz

    Re .16:
    
    > Well, if you adhered to simple company policy and signed your
    > personal  property to the building in the first place, you'd have
    > little problem  proving it was yours.
    
    I AM NOT BOUND BY COMPANY POLICY.  I NEVER signed any agreement to
    abide by company policy, and Digital's policy manual EXPLICITLY says it
    is not binding.  Furthermore, no Digital representative has told me
    what property should be signed into the property log.  Should my HP-95
    be signed in?  Even though I bring it in every day?  Or is it below the
    level?  What about a personal radio?  What if another employee reports
    a theft of a radio and Security sees me walking out with mine that day
    -- will they take it?  If an employee brings a person in and out every
    day, should it be logged?  How much property is enough to be logged?
    
    > If you're too lazy to stop and abide by the rules,  the corporation
    > isn't responsible for your sloppiness.
    
    The corporation IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS THEFT.  Theft is ILLEGAL.  If I
    do not sign something into the personal property log, that does not
    give Digital the right to take it from me.
    
    IT IS ILLEGAL TO TAKE PROPERTY AWAY FROM A PERSON BECAUSE YOU DO NOT
    HAVE PROOF IT BELONGS TO THEM.
    
    Digital has ZERO right to make "rules" that I must obey.  This is a
    free country, and unless *I* agree to the rules to, they are not
    binding upon me.  I DO NOT AGREE TO DIGITAL'S RULES IN THIS MATTER.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    On second thought, I like this idea of one of the parties to an
    employment arrangement making up new rules to impose on the other.
    
    Since I know this conference is read by some officers, this note
    constitutes official notice to Digital Equipment Corporation that,
    starting immediately, my compensation for employment is increased by
    20%.
    
    There, that's a nice rule.  If Digital is too lazy to abide by it, I am
    not responsible for the consequences (which include double damages
    under New Hampshire law).
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    
    Re .15
    
    OK, what company assets?
    
    ed

    
    lots of stuff has gone missing from offices and labs...  from things
    like small hand tools, chips, memory simms, PCI add-in boards, hard
    disks and the like to whole pc's and laptops!  and there's also
    personal stuff that has disappeared as well, radios and the like...
    
    the security folks here had responded to employee requests for more
    access to the site by making available more doors, without guards, and
    with key card access...  the problem is, with no resources to watch all
    the doors all the time, stuff walks right out from time to time...
    
    this really isn't new...  when i started working hee 12 years ago, the
    guards at the main entrances would spot check bags, briefcases and the
    like...  when times were hard and there were fewer guards this tapered
    off...  they are now just re-asserting a policy that was in place a
    long time ago...
    
    the way some people are carrying on, you'd think that anything that
    wasn't bolted down was being stolen and that employees are running out
    the thier cars with big bags of swag and that the response to this was
    institution of some sort of police state...  that is hardly the case...
    
    our security folks are responding to an increase in the number of incidents
    and the value of some of the stuff that has gone out...  that's all...
    i really don't think it's unreasonable for them to try and protect our
    ass(ets)...  do you?
    
    					dave  

    re: Note 4393.21 by SUBSYS::NEUMYER 

    >    OK, what company assets?
    
    Notebook computers as an example.
    
    -Bruce
    

    
    I'm not against valid secuity measures. I just see this as a 'feel
    good' measure. I doubt many full systems malk out the employee
    entrances. As for the other stuff, Notebooks,etc, they are all small
    enough to be taken out in ways that these measures will not detect. If
    someone can get something out in a pocketbook, then the same item could
    be taken out in/under a jacket.
    
    If you are worried about your personal items, either leave them home or 
    secure them while they are in the building.
    
    ed

    edp,
    
    
       I think you miss the point.  This is not being done to just
    inconvenience you.  This is being done to help prevent Digital's and
    your things from disappearing.  
    
       While you may find it a hassle to log your personal stuff in, should
    you report it missing what proof do you have that you brought it in to
    work?
    
       While you may find signing an employee into the building every day a
    hassle what if there should be some emergency where someone needs to get 
    ahold of them... At least they have a person to contact.
    
       I will make a comment here (At the risk of receiving your wrath)
    that you are being pessimistic about the intentions.
    
    Rick

    That's a good point, Ed.  Most people know what they ought to do to
    prevent thefts.  Showing them that the site security personnel and
    local management take it seriously may have good results.
    
    Mark

    Digital's buildings are private property.  They can make rules about
    what goes on in their buildings just as you can make rules about
    what goes on in your house.
    
    If you don't like the rules, you don't have to enter the building.
    

    Re .25:
    
    > I think you miss the point.  This is not being done to just
    > inconvenience you.
    
    I do not care.  I think you miss the point.  I REFUSE to give Digital
    permission to take my property, regardless of the purpose.  I WILL
    charge Digital with theft if Digital takes any of my property.
    
    It does not matter if the purpose is to inconvenience me or not.  No
    matter what problems Digital has, stealing from me is not an acceptable
    solution.
    
    > While you may find it a hassle to log your personal stuff in,
    
    I have never objected to having to log in personal stuff.  I object to
    a Digital policy under which the company will take my property in ANY
    circumstance.
    
    > . . . should you report it missing what proof do you have that you
    > brought it in to work?
    
    What proof does Digital have that I did not?  You cannot take people's
    property because they cannot prove it is theirs.  It is illegal.  It is
    a crime.  It will get Digital in trouble.
    
    Several years ago, we got a pamphlet about Digital's ethics stating
    that compliance with the law was the minimum standard.  Apparently that
    standard has fallen.
    
    > While you may find signing an employee into the building every day
    > . . .
    
    Where did this business about signing employees in, versus signing
    property in, come from?  Is Digital going to "hold" an employee who
    cannot prove they signed in and are a free person?
    
    > I will make a comment here (At the risk of receiving your wrath) that
    > you are being pessimistic about the intentions.
    
    No, I am not.  You have misunderstood.  I saw not one word about
    intentions.  I do not care what Digital's intentions are.  Digital may
    not take my property, period.  Digital may not take my property for
    good reasons.  Digital may not take my property for bad reasons. 
    Digital may not take my property. 
     
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    Re .27:
    
    > Digital's buildings are private property.  They can make rules about
    > what goes on in their buildings just as you can make rules about what
    > goes on in your house.
    
    There are limits on what rules Digital can make.  Digital may not take
    my property.  I will charge Digital with theft.
    
    If Digital wants to go to court and plead that Digital's rules allowed
    Digital to take my property, then Digital will lose.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    
    "If any of you touch my stuff .... I'll kill ya"
    "If any of you think of touching my stuff .... I'll kill ya"
    
    Calm down Francis ...

    > I WILL charge Digital with theft if Digital takes any of my property...
    > I have never objected to having to log in personal stuff.  I object to
    > a Digital policy under which the company will take my property in ANY
    > circumstance.
    
    If you don't log it in when you enter, how are they supposed to know
    it's your property?  'Cause you say so?  So does a crook who is
    stealing Digital's property.  Words aren't enough.
    
    If you *do* log it in when you enter, why do you think they would be
    likely to take it from you?  No, rephrase that to use your word.  Why
    do you think they "will" take it from you "in ANY circnumstance"?
    
> I think you miss the point.  
    
    Got that right.  What is it?
    
    -Mark

re:.19 edp's
    IT IS ILLEGAL TO TAKE PROPOERTY AWAY FROM A PERSON BECAUSE YOU DO 
    NOT HAVE PROOF IT BELONGS TO THEM.

This is an interested proposition.  Suppose you are walking out of a store 
with something that the store believes belongs to them and you do not have 
proof that it belongs to you.  Suppose the something you have is very 
valuable.  What are the legal rights of the store in this situation?
Does possession override all other considerations?  If you were walking 
out of Digital with an expensive 8400 memory board, would Digital have 
any basis for attempting to keep the board inside the facility?

Jim

    edp,
    
    
      Please review your statement in .16 you discussed brining in a person
    every day..  That is where that came from....
    
      usually If I don't like the rules of an organization, I move to
    change them, I don't just complain about them to people who have
    no say in the matter...
    
    
    Rick

    RE: .32
    
    That occurred last year at a shopping mall around Washington DC (
    or was it Philadelphia?).  An african-american gentleman walked out
    of an Eddie Bauer store wearning a Eddie Bauer shirt that was just
    given to him a day earlier as a gift.  As he left the store, the
    security guard asked him if he had a receipt for the shirt he was
    wearing.  Of course not.  Do you carry the receipts for the articles
    of clothing you wear?  Well, the guard made him remove the shirt and
    said if he came back with the receipt, he could have the shirt back.
    
    Needless to say, Eddie Bauer was raked over the coals in the courts,
    the apologized the gentleman, paid costs, etc.
    
    RE: .others
    
    Just because the buildings are Digital's private property doesn't mean
    that Digital can override or ignore local/state/federal laws.  If
    the Digital orangebook said you can kill your co-workers for getting
    in your way in the cafeteria, it doesn't make it "legal".
    
    				-John

Re: .32

This happened recently - a man visited a clothing store wearing a shirt he had
bought there a few days before.  On his way out he was accused of stealing
the shirt - they made him take it off and sent him out of the store in
his t-shirt, since of course he didn't have a receipt with him.

This sort of thing has worried me in the past - especially regarding clothing
(jackets, etc.) which could be easily pilfered and claimed as one's own.  In
the case I cite above, there was a strong sentiment that the man was
accused because he was black - that they would not have confronted a white
man.

I think that a lot would depend on how "reasonable" the judgement was that
Security thought the item was Digital property.  I'd think they'd be much
more interested in verification on a Digital laptop PC than, say, a Compaq.
Similarly, it would be reasonable for them to be suspicious of someone
carrying out an Alpha processor claiming it was their personal property.


				Steve

    >If Digital wants to go to court and plead that Digital's rules allowed
    >Digital to take my property, then Digital will lose.

    Edp,

    You make an assumption that someone (police or DA) would agree with
    your reasoning that Digital has stolen your property.  Personally I
    don't think they would follow though with a phone call to Digital let
    alone any kind of charges.  They would simply tell you to talk  to the
    nice people at Digital Hudson to get your stuff back.

    -Bruce 

I think Eric should make a test case out of this.  It would be interesting
to see what happens.

				Steve

>This happened recently - a man visited a clothing store wearing a shirt he had
>bought there a few days before.  On his way out he was accused of stealing
>the shirt - they made him take it off and sent him out of the store in
>his t-shirt, since of course he didn't have a receipt with him.
    
    The difference with what HLO is asking is they would have created a
    receipt for the shirt on the way in the store. 
    
    -Bruce
    
    

    
    
      At the risk of playing lawyer here,  Stores have a legitimate
    right to detain in a resonable manner people suspected of theft
    and the contested property.
    
      The law upholds such detentions (and I think searches)  where the 
    actions are 'reasonable' and stem from some provable probable cause. 
    
      I suspect anybody trying to accuse dec of theft based on a reasonable
    detention where probable cause exists would be in for an uphill 
    legal battle...
    
      But I just play one on tv...
    
    						-al

    
    Much ado about nothing.
    
    Digital "should" take reasonable steps to secure/ensure/insure it's
    property against theft.
    
    I don't really think checking one's pocketbook is going to cut down 
    on much if any pilfering.  
    
    And as an earlier note pointed out, it was the head of security that
    was busted, whose watching the watchers?
    
    I bet digital looses more money to idle workers, idle assets, 
    industrial espionage, late projects, mismanaged projects,
    competing projects, etc, then it does to onsee twosee losses of
    cpus (What would one do with an Alpha chip, use it as a paperweight)
    memory, or disk drives.
    
    But if it makes them feel good, that's fine with me.
    Especially since I don't work in HLO.
    
    /art

    I heard that the one-time-head-of-LJO security decided that some
    copper tubing left over from an LJO renovation looked better in
    the back of his pickup... he got caught.

    Re .31:
    
    > If you don't log it in when you enter, how are they supposed to know
    > it's your property?
    
    New Hampshire Revised Statute Annotated, Chapter 34, Section 3:  "It
    shall be a theft for any person to take without violence or the threat
    of violence the property of another person.  Unless the person cannot
    prove to Digital Equipment Corporation that it is theirs, then it is
    okay."
    
    Get the point?  There's a law here, and the real law doesn't make an
    exception for Digital Equipment Corporation.  You CANNOT take another
    person's property, not even on speculation.  Digital is NOT supposed to
    know the property is mine -- there's nothing in the law that requires
    that.  If Digital does not know the property is Digital's, they'd
    better be damn careful about taking it from somebody else.
    
    > 'Cause you say so?
    
    Yes.  If I have my property, and I say it is my property, and Digital
    takes it from me, Digital has committed an illegal act called theft.
    
    > So does a crook who is stealing Digital's property.  Words aren't
    > enough.
    
    Words are more than enough.  It is illegal to take another person's
    property even if they do not say one word.
    
    > If you *do* log it in when you enter, why do you think they would be
    > likely to take it from you?  No, rephrase that to use your word.  Why
    > do you think they "will" take it from you "in ANY circnumstance"?
    
    I said neither of those.  I said I object to a policy under which
    Digital will take my property in any circumstance -- that is not the
    same as saying I think Digital will actually always act on that policy
    in every circumstance.  My statement means that I do not care WHAT the
    circumstance is, I object to Digital taking my property or having a
    policy in which it can happen.

    > What is it [my point]?

    Taking a person's property is illegal.
         
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    Re .32:
    
    > What are the legal rights of the store in this situation?
    
    Under New Hampshire law, a merchant or their agent has a right to
    forcibly detain a person they "reasonably" (or some other legal
    adjective) suspect of shoplifting.  That is ALL.  There is no law of
    which I am aware that gives the merchant a right to search or to
    confiscate.  This would be a sticky situation for a merchant; they
    should probably call the police immediately and press charges.  Doing
    anything else can open them to charges of false imprisonment, battery,
    et cetera.
    
    > If you were walking out of Digital with an expensive 8400 memory
    > board, would Digital have any basis for attempting to keep the board
    > inside the facility?
    
    If you, as a security guard or other agent of Digital, believed
    sufficiently the person were stealing, you may detain them, using force
    up to a level dependent upon the state.  If you are wrong, a court may
    judge whether your belief met the required standard.  If it did not,
    you and Digital may be guilty of battery.  Once you have detained the
    person, I suggest calling the police and pressing charges.
    
    If you do not have the required standard of reason to detain, I suggest
    taking a picture and doing what you can to identify the person.  Then
    you settle it later -- peaceably, without taking the person's property
    or detaining them.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    Re .33:
    
    >   Please review your statement in .16 you discussed brining in a person
    > every day..  That is where that came from....
    
    I do not see any statement in .16 about bringing in a person.
    
    >   usually If I don't like the rules of an organization, I move to
    > change them, I don't just complain about them to people who have
    > no say in the matter...

    You may take my notes as a tiny suggestion that I would like the rules
    changed.  And what makes you think that because I am writing notes here
    I am not also taking other action?
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    Re .36:
    
    > You make an assumption that someone (police or DA) would agree with
    > your reasoning that Digital has stolen your property.
    
    No, I did not.  I can still sue Digital in civil court, and I believe
    individuals in New Hampshire can even bring criminal charges.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    Re .39:
    
    >   I suspect anybody trying to accuse dec of theft based on a reasonable
    > detention where probable cause exists would be in for an uphill 
    > legal battle...

    a) The issue here is not detention but confiscation of property.  The
    New Hampshire law permitting detention of suspected shoplifters says
    nothing about confiscating property.
    
    b) Digital is not a merchant under that law and is not entitled to the
    right to detain it permits.
    
    c) The policy does not require probable cause for confiscation.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

FYI, the note was .19:

>>      <<< Note 4393.19 by RUSURE::EDP "Always mount a scratch monkey." >>>
>>   ...
>>    -- will they take it?  If an employee brings a person in and out every
>>    day, should it be logged?  How much property is enough to be logged?

    Re .48:
    
    Substitute "purse" for "person".
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

>    > You make an assumption that someone (police or DA) would agree with
>    > your reasoning that Digital has stolen your property.
>    
>    No, I did not.  I can still sue Digital in civil court, and I believe
>    individuals in New Hampshire can even bring criminal charges.

    Good thing the HLO plant is Mass then.  As for filing in civil court,
    you will get someone to listen to you, but that doesn't mean they will 
    find in your favor.

Eric,

A few notes back, you got down to what would probably happen.

Scenario:

	Eric walks out of HLO with his new PC that he bought
	last week.

	Security stops him.  Eric refuses to provide documentation.

	Security gives Eric two options: leave the PC until Eric
	can provide documentation, or discuss it with the Hudson
	police.  (I doubt that security would forcibly take it
	away.)  If you choose the first option, DEC has not
	stolen anything; they are just storing your property.

	If you choose the second option, what happens next will
	be up to the Hudson police.  Depending on how reasonably
	you behave, the police may simply take the serial number
	of the item and tell you to be on your way, and tell you
	and Digital that if they can show that the item belongs to
	Digital at some time in the future, you will be charged.

	If you behave in a belligerent manner, you might be taken
	to the station, booked, and the PC held in evidence by
	the police.

/john

RE: .51

	I'd like to be a fly on the wall if that senario came to
	pass.

							mike

    
    rep -1
    
    You'll have a hard time getting out of the building if nobody signed
    you in.  :>)
    
    

    That's what fire alarms are for.  ;-)

    Boy, great thread here. Threatening replies. lawyers. cops. 
    ALL CAPS SHOUTING.
    
    Lotsa smoke, little light. Theft may go down at HLO, but the real story
    is that a big wheel's notebook got bagged and one of his little wheels
    (the guy who squeaks "how high" when he hears JUMP!!) decided to take
    "decisive action."
    
    Check the press releases in the next few days, the next VP may be the 
    VP of bag searching...
    
    edp, I might comment of some of your many screeds here, but I gotta
    go, <sarcasm on> the paranoids are after me. <sarcasm off>
    
    'Scuse me if I don't sign out...
    

    I think EDP makes some good points.  This is a discussion after all.
    
    RE: .34
    
    Steve, don't encourage him.  NH Dept of Safety is still reeling after
    the last dare in a notes conference. :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) 
    
    Now I have to trott off to another notes conference and declare myself
    a raise.
    
    Grahame

    I also think that Eric has a valid point. Imagine that the guard
    searches my back pack, and comes across, say a Windows NT book.
    Obviously I don't carry the receipt for it around with me. Even if I
    stamped it with my name, that still wouldn't be proof. Does security
    have the right to demand that the book stay with them until I prove
    that it is mine ? What about my back pack ? My clothes ? My golden
    Rolex ? (:-) Yea....) The point is that while somebody walking out with
    an 8400 memory can reasonably be assumed to have stolen it if it isn't
    for business purposes, with regard to almost anything else (especially
    all of the personal property that is disappearing) it would be almost
    impossible to make such an assumption reasonable.

I don't disagree that Eric has some good points, though I am unsure what
the Massachusetts laws in this regard are.  Still, I think that the policy
as announced is reasonable and is also rather common in the industry - clearly
there does not seem to be a significant legal problem with it.

The important aspect is the discretion of the security folks, and how picky
they are at making people prove ownership.  As long as they stay on the
reasonable side (worrying about DEC laptops, circuit boards, etc.), then
there should be no problems.  If they do start challenging everything, then
it will be a big mess, no question.

Employees who are concerned about the possibility of having their personal
belongings challenged should register them with security or not bring them
into the building.

					Steve

    Employment, like sports, is a game.  If you want to play the game,
    you play by the rules.  Those who break the rules receive penalties,
    or are frequently asked to leave the game.  I believe Digital is
    making it clear what the rules of the game are for those who wish to
    play, and is giving adequate notice of the change for those wishing
    to register their person property.
    
    I don't think that it is Digital's intent to "steal" whatever
    property you can't prove is yours.
    
    Maybe Digital will decide that "holding" the property in question is
    not in their best interest, and decide to let the property AND the
    person "GO".  I know a lot of employees who have been let go in the
    last 6 years who played by ALL the rules, but it was decided that
    Digital and that employee were no longer a good "fit".  Would sure
    cut down on the amount of threatened "stealing" law suits!
    
    JCE
    

    The word for today is : 
    
    Anomy.
    
    I can sympathize with Ed's reaction to the policy:
    
    Not because I don't see the need for DEC, er, Digital to 
    reduce its losses through theft, but because over the years 
    I have seen many instances of search/property policies used 
    instead as a tool for harasssment.  To me, the trust between
    employee and management has been irrevocably fractured since about
    1990. I do not trust management to implement this policy in a sensible
    or equitable fashion, and I think that others who reacted strongly
    against this policy might have the same fears.
    
    I won't go into all the details of incidents I have knowledge of where
    package searches turned up property that was later *definitively*
    proven to be owned by an employee, but not before that employee was
    embarassed, dragged over the coals, and a letter detailing the
    investigation inserted into their personnel file. No matter, the harm
    was done.
    
    The combination of overzealous security trying to look good by finding
    lots of 'suspect' items, and unethical management looking for
    ammunition to use against personal enemies/ potential rivals  is to me
    a potent combination.
    
    If this had been 15 years ago , and a message came down that we were
    experiencing workplace theft, and security would be tightened up, I
    would have felt glad/proud that the company I worked for was on top of
    things.  
    
    But that was a different company. Now I wonder if I will be dragged
    over the coals to 'prove' that my HP caculator, which has rode in my 
    briefcase for the past 9 years, really is 'mine', or the slash folders
    I bought to keep my personal projects separated... or the stationary in my
    daytimer....
    
    It's a whole new world.
    
    Publius

I am quite amazed at the number of people who think Digital as the right to
confiscate property of the employee because the employee does not have proof 
they own it when DIGITAL ITSELF CANNOT PROVE THAT DIGITAL OWNS IT!!!!!! Why 
on earth should the assumption be that Digital owns it????

As far as giving advanced notice, I assume you think mugging is ok provided
you give the victim adequate notice.  People put personal things in brief
cases, purses etc and then forget that they are there.  Later they will have
to 'pay' with this new policy.

I wonder what will happen if Digital really goes ahead with this nonsense and 
deprives someone of something that person needs (the lack of which results in 
real damages for that employee...).

-Joe

>I am quite amazed at the number of people who think Digital as the right to
>confiscate property of the employee because the employee does not have proof 
>they own it when DIGITAL ITSELF CANNOT PROVE THAT DIGITAL OWNS IT!!!!!! Why 
>on earth should the assumption be that Digital owns it????

have you considered that the property in question may not belong to Digital, 
but another employee?  I'd be interested to see how you'd change your tune if 
someone walked off with your personal property.  I'm speaking as someone who 
has lost on a regular basis not just Digital assets that I use as part of my 
job, but several items of personal property that I had in the office.  I'd 
personally be very grateful if Digital Security had been able to recover 
either.

Interestingly enough, these thefts occured in an office that has turnstiles on 
every exit.  On no occasion was it a case of `blame the cleaners', since 
everything went missing in the morning (the cleaners didn't turn up until 
after normal working hours)  This means that the likelyhood is that my 
property, and Digital's, was stolen by a *Digital* employee.  I'd be more than 
happy to have questions asked about items I was removing from the building if 
it stops some tw*t from nicking things.

Chris.

    re .59:
    
    Yeah, and the Golden Rule applies...
    
    He who has the gold, makes the rules.
    

>have you considered that the property in question may not belong to Digital, 
>but 

Yes, I have even considered that the property in question belongs to ME!

>I'd be interested to see how you'd change your tune if 
>someone walked off with your personal property.  

You are seeing it.  Whether it is someone who steals it from my office or
it gets conficated by security guards, it is still a denial of my right to 
use my property.  The fact that it is a Digital selected person does not make 
any less of a theft.  Can you see that?

>I'm speaking as someone who 
>has lost on a regular basis not just Digital assets that I use as part of my 
>job, but several items of personal property that I had in the office.  I'd 
>personally be very grateful if Digital Security had been able to recover 
>either.

And how would YOUR tune change if it was Digital that deprived you of your
personal property?

>happy to have questions asked about items I was removing from the building if 
>it stops some tw*t from nicking things.

But it won't, at least smaller objects that can be taken out in pockets.  Will
you support pat-down searches?  After all, if it stops theft it must be a good 
thing, right??????

-Joe

Since we all seem to have a great love of rat-holes, I find this string most
amusing.  It also takes me back 20 or so years to the days when I really wanted
to get educated (I now wonder why) and worked for a Corporation who was quite
happy to foot the entire bill (Sperry Rand).  In any case, as I remember from 
studies of common law, ANY PROPERTY HOLDER is within their right to use all
REASONABLE means to constraint the movement of property from their premises
and/or restrain the persons attempting to do so.  As long as the property owner
(i.e. Digital) is REASONABLE, and nothing here implies otherwise, they have
every right to conduct searches and impound property.

The key word here is REASONABLE.  There will always be over-zealous security
guards.  By the same token, there will also always be belligerent DECies.  I
regret that it has been my experience that the later all too often out number
the former.  If you have items that might easily be mistaken for Digital's
property, register them.  If you find yourself in a confrontation with security,
REGARDLESS of who is correct, keep your cool even if the Guard loses his.  If
you are the one in the wrong, it is amazing what a little courtesy will do.  
And if you are in the right, remember that ranting and raving won't do much for
your credibility.

/mj

re .64,

I personally don't see such a problem arising if you follow proper channels 
and get personal (or other) property signed into the building and present the 
proper paperwork when removing it.  A bit of a hassle, perhaps, but preferable 
to having to put up with a spate of theft.

I wouldn't change my tune if security held on to something it suspected didn't 
belong to me until I provided the relevant proof (ie the aforementioned 
paperwork)  Sure, I'd probably get irate at the time, but I think that the 
attitude of `don't mess with me, this is *mine* and if you say otherwise I'll 
sue your arse off' seems delibirately obtuse and confrontational, and in the 
long term benefits noone.  I think it's a case of, if you don't like the 
rules, don't bring personal property into work with you.  Simple as that.

Chris.

A few months back,  someone in my area finally caught the thief that
was making away with personal items.

It was a security guard! The guard even picked up, looked into, but 
decided not to take the video camera that was doing the filming!

Garry

     Consider as well that this program allows inspection of
     incoming packages, thus, possibly protecting employees
     from harm.  Not a pleasant thought, but unfortunately
     a reality.
    
     Protection of assets includes preventing theft, but more
     importantly, it includes protecting people- employees,
     customers, and visitors.  A package inspection program
     is unfortunate, however, it is an example of Digital's
     committement in protecting its assets, and, in providing
     it's employees a safe working environment.  
    
     I recently started a new job at DAS.  I was politely asked
     by a security officer to open my briefcase three times during
     my first week, twice upon exiting, and once upon entering.  It
     was not the most enjoyable experience becuase of the images or
     perceptions, I or others in the area may have.  However, it
     is worth the effort, if just one site tenant can work, at any
     hour, in confidence, or with a reduction in fear and anxiety.  
    
     I believe it is human nature to initially interpret a package
     inspection policy with a feeling of challenge or accusation.  On
     the other hand, I believe time will alleviate this, and it will
     become another acceptable, and prudent business practice.  Consider,
     the police cruiser taking radar on a highway.  The radar reflecting
     off your vehicle is not an accusation that you are speeding, or
     that you can't be trusted to adhere to the posted speed limit, rather
     it is a reasonable attempt at providing a level of control and safety
     for all traveling the highway.  
    
     I would also suspect, that the process is equally uncomfortable to
     some security officers, who are also learning to adjust to changing
     business/security norms in the United States.  I believe many
     employees outside the US have seen similar changes, and in many 
     cases more stringent security measures resulting from particular
     threats, or regional security norms.
    
     -Tim
    

    
    and if a frog had wings he would not bump his butt when he hopped !!!!
    

    
    One thing to keep in mind is that I believe the policies were always
    there to allow inspection of packages. They were just not exercised
    regularly. In some cases the perception (real or imagined) of
    persecution came up when it was used. By making it part of a daily
    routine you don't feel singled out when asked to open your empty lunch
    bag.
    
    I took it kind or personally when it started here too even though I had
    never had any problem with security; but then my PPL (Personal Paranoia
    Level) runs a little high sometimes. Now it's just part of the drill,
    just like showing your badge. 
    
    Rob Wall 
                                

Well, It seems to me that it will encourage employee's to purchase
non-digital products, After all if you walk out with an IBM Thinkpad in
your brief case it would be pretty embarassing for Digital to admit that
they owned it :-)

Also what real good is a receipt? I have purchased lots of hardware
products in the past and there was no serial number on the receipt. You
could wait for a bunch of 'wigets' to get purchased, go buy one yourself
and then take one of the 'digital owned wigets' home every night with
and show your receipt. 

It's like the story of the thief who was being watched by the police man.
The thief had bragged that even if the police watched him night and day he
could still steal whatever he wanted to. A contest was set up. Every night
the thief would leave the village with a cart of hay. The police man would
search and search the hay but find no contrband in it and would have to let
the thief go. This happened for many days. Finally the contest was over and
the police feeling that they had stopped the thief told him that he had
lost and demanded that he pay up. The thief said that he had stolen
something every day. The Carts!!!

    Meanwhile, over here in the UK, there are said to be sales offices with
    no security staff other than reception (which is a full-time job in
    itself, and is office hours only) and where the burglar alarm is set
    off so frequently in the evenings when late visitors leave the building
    and hold the door open too long that any staff on site just ignore it.
    Security ? Not there.
    
    Somewhere between that and HLO is a reasonable compromise.
    
    regards
    john

    Meanwhile, over here in the UK, there are said to be sales offices with
    no security staff other than reception (which is a full-time job in
    itself, and is office hours only)

At my site we downsized the receptionist 7 months ago.  There is nobody
to lock up the place.  The last person out has to use their key to lock
the door,  I don't know how often the place has been left unlocked all
night, because the last person out thought there was someone else still
working!  Maybe the cleaning lady will lock up at 3am when she comes in?
Until we have a major theft, cost-cutting will prevail!

>Well, It seems to me that it will encourage employee's to purchase
>non-digital products, After all if you walk out with an IBM Thinkpad in
>your brief case it would be pretty embarassing for Digital to admit that
>they owned it :-)

What makes you so certain Digital doesn't own IBM hardware?  Where has your 
head head been buried in the sand?  I've been working with people who have 
had IBM hardware on their desks since the PS2 days.   ...and it all was 
owned by Digital.  Before we "got back in the business" where did our 
employee's laptops come from?

>What makes you so certain Digital doesn't own IBM hardware?  Where has your 
>head head been buried in the sand?  I've been working with people who have 
>had IBM hardware on their desks since the PS2 days.   ...and it all was 
>owned by Digital.  Before we "got back in the business" where did our 
>employee's laptops come from?

continuing the rathole, Digital also owns at least two IBM mainframes, at VBO 
and LKG, although admittedly for porting and interoperability issues... no 
doubt IBM owns an assortment of Digital (or at least DEC) kit.

Chris.

>    Did you read the original message?  If you do, you would have a hard
>    time finding the word "receipt" in it.  


from .0:


HOW WILL LAPTOPS BE TREATED UNDER THE PROGRAM?

Company or personal laptop computers will need to have a Personal
Computer Sticker attached to them. To obtain a sticker for a company
owned laptop you must bring an appropriately signed property removal
pass to Security. To obtain a sticker for a personally owned laptop, a
bill of sale must be shown.



	Where I come from, a bill of sale is a form of receipt.


						--Doug

Chris,
    
> no doubt IBM owns an assortment of Digital (or at least DEC) kit.
    
    Well i know of at least one VAX6000 sitting in IBM Tucson's storage
    development lab. (It was connected to an IBM 3495 Tape Robot).
    
    Gerald

    Re .51:
    
    Digital can call the Hudson police if they wish, but I will be gone by
    then.  Digital has no right to detain employees.  If they try, I will
    add false imprisonment to the charges.

    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    Re .58:

    > I don't disagree that Eric has some good points, though I am unsure
    > what the Massachusetts laws in this regard are.

    The unlawful taking of the property of another without force is called
    theft, and it is illegal in all 50 states of the union.  Do I really
    need to cite Massachusetts statute for you to believe there is a law
    against it?


    				-- edp


Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    Consent is an interesting matter.  I do not challenge what you say
    regarding Digital.  However, I am curious if you hold the same for
    gov't?
    
    Mark

    Re .59:
    
    > I believe Digital is making it clear what the rules of the game are
    > for those who wish to play, and is giving adequate notice of the change
    > for those wishing to register their person property.
    
    The rules of the game include the laws of the state of Massachusetts. 
    Massachusetts has made it clear what the rules of the game are for
    those who wish to play, and adequate notice has been given in most
    public libraries.
    
    As I have said before, Digital has NO right to make rules that are
    binding upon me without my consent.  I do not consent to the taking of
    my property.  What makes you think the employer has any more power to
    make rules than employees?  My rule is that Digital cannot take my
    property.  I have made that clear and given adequate notice.
    
    >  I don't think that it is Digital's intent to "steal" whatever
    > property you can't prove is yours.
    
    If you take property, and intended to take the property, then that is
    theft, even if you did not intend to steal the property.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    Re .62:
    
    > have you considered that the property in question may not belong to
    > Digital,  but another employee?
    
    Have you considered that if Digital takes property it knows belongs to
    Digital or, on behalf of the owner, takes property it knows belongs to
    that person, then that is LEGAL.  It is perfectly okay to take property
    you KNOW belongs to you or the person you are the agent for.
    
    The problem with the policy is the part that states Digital will take
    property when it does NOT know who the property belongs to.  If you
    take the property of an employee because that employee could not prove
    it was theirs, that is unethical and illegal.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    Re .65:
    
    > In any case, as I remember from  studies of common law, ANY PROPERTY
    > HOLDER is within their right to use all REASONABLE means to constraint
    > the movement of property from their premises and/or restrain the
    > persons attempting to do so.
    
    It's not reasonable to take another person's property.
    
    > As long as the property owner (i.e. Digital) is REASONABLE, and nothing
    > here implies otherwise, they have every right to conduct searches and
    > impound property.
    
    A reasonable course of action is to document the property in question
    (take a photograph and write down the details).  It is not reasonable
    to confiscate property you do not know is yours or to detain a person.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    Re .66:
    
    > I personally don't see such a problem arising if you follow proper
    > channels  and get personal (or other) property signed into the building
    > and present the  proper paperwork when removing it.
    
    Nobody's answered my questions about what must be signed in.  Books? 
    Purses?  Clothes?  My palmtop?  Cash?
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    re .80
    
    >  The unlawful taking of the property of another without force is called
    >  theft, and it is illegal in all 50 states of the union.  Do I really
    >  need to cite Massachusetts statute for you to believe there is a law
    >  against it?
    
    This is the most beautiful example of circular reasoning I've seen in
    quite a while.
    
    Vince

    
    
    >  DO I really need to cite statute?
    
      NOpe - you win.   
    
      However, citing statutes without the accompanying body of relevant 
    case law is not sufficient to ensure that your interpretation would
    prevail in a courtroom p*ssing contest.
    
    

    re: edp "the unlawful taking of property"
    
    In several replies you have been constructing careful statements trying
    to project an absolute or judgement of a hypothetical situation. The
    weak link (IMHO) is in the use of the word "take". This is sorely
    inadequate in defining the circumstances. I am quite sure the "library"
    refences you mentioned back-a-few will use a more legally descriptive
    term. By the way, a law book in a library would certainly NOT comprise
    prior notification as evidenced by the number of cases dismissed in
    your legal system for the lack of "moranda" (sp) warnings.
    
    Have a Nice Day...really!
    
    [My apologies for continuing this RH.]
    
    

    Re .86:
    
    Maybe it is circular if you don't know the law.  But the definitions
    given in the statute are precise; the act is described as an "unlawful
    taking" (or some such; I'm not quoting any particular statute) to
    exclude things such as taking under warrant and so on.  What it will
    mean is that if Digital takes an employees property and cannot show
    that there is some law that permits it, then it will be theft.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    You can't prove that it is yours.  Digital can't prove it is their's. 
    Why does your claim to ownership outweigh Digital's claim to ownership?
    Why can you just walk out with it and Digital can't take active steps
    to prevent you from doing so.  You would take active steps to prevent
    somebody from walking away with something you believed to be yours.
    
                                        August G. Reinig

Another step down the rathole:

Suppose someone was attempting to walk out of HLO with another person's
property.  (Just to make it relevant, let's suppose that it is a laptop.)

If the guard suspects that the person removing said property is not the
rightful owner, but follows edp's logic, they would tell the person,
"I suspect that you are stealing that equipment, but go on. I won't stop
you."

At that point, is Digital not guilty of being an accessory to theft?

    Re .90:
    
    > You can't prove that it is yours.
    
    Maybe not at the time Digital takes it, but later.  Also, if it goes to
    court and you testify it is yours and Digital offers no evidence to the
    contrary, the court, unlike Digital, will believe you.
    
    > Why can you just walk out with it and Digital can't take active steps
    > to prevent you from doing so.
    
    a) Battery is illegal.
    b) False imprisonment is illegal.
    c) Theft is illegal.
    
    >  You would take active steps to prevent somebody from walking away
    > with something you believed to be yours.
    
    But Digital does NOT believe this property to be Digital's.  The policy
    doesn't say that property Digital believes to be Digital's will be
    taken; the policy says property an employee cannot PROVE is THEIRS will
    be taken.
    
    Legal:  Taking property you know is yours.
    Illegal:  Taking property that belongs to somebody else.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    Re .91:
    
    > At that point, is Digital not guilty of being an accessory to theft?
    
    An accessory aids.  Just not doing anything isn't enough to make you an
    accessory.  Furthermore, I have recommended, repeatedly, quite
    reasonable actions Digital can take:  Write down the name of the
    person.  Write down the description of the property.  Settle it later. 
    Call the police.  There are PLENTY of things Digital can do reasonably,
    ethically, and legally.  Theft is not one of them.
    
    So far, NOBODY has stated why any of these legal alternatives is
    insufficient.  Nobody has stated what the limits are on property that
    must be logged are.  Nobody has stated what will happen to disputed
    property that need not be logged but Digital takes an interest in (such
    as a radio when a radio has gone missing).  Nobody has stated why
    Digital's rules should prevail over an employee's rules or the state's
    rules.  
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

Re: 4393.76 Author: CBHVAX::CBH "Lager Lout"

>> continuing the rathole, Digital also owns at least two IBM mainframes at VBO 
>> and LKG, although admittedly for porting and interoperability issues... no 
>> doubt IBM owns an assortment of Digital (or at least DEC) kit.

Actually, someone walked out of LKG with the IBM mainframe last week so we're
down to one.

j.

>    a) Battery is illegal.

Clearly written by someone who has experienced the HiNote Ultra...

    re. .95:  I hope that comment was facetious; Eric obviously knows his 
    law, and is rightly concerned about our civil liberties.
    I suppose you think only degreed engineers are entitled to do engineering
    work?
    
    John

    Re .96:
    
    I am continually amazed by people who urge ignorance.  Why would you
    want to remain ignorant?  Regardless of any myths, legal knowledge is
    not in any way restricted to lawyers.  The law books are actually in
    public libraries, where anybody can get to them.
    
    Where have I gotten my legal information?  Nashua Public Library. 
    Boston Public Library (government records section and the reserve
    section).  Nashua District Court library.  Hillsborough County Superior
    Court at Manchester library.  Hillsborough County Superior Court at
    Nashua SCOPE session (basically a Q&A session with the Clerk).  Nolo
    Press books.  The United States Code (of which I own a copy).  Black's
    Legal Dictionary.  One successful lawsuit against the Department of
    Safety, litigated pro se.  University of Massachusetts at Lowell
    library.  The office of the New Hampshire Secretary of State.  A
    hearing room of the New Hampshire Senate.  Three New Hampshire
    legislators.  The office of the Delaware Secretary of State.  One paid
    published article I wrote for _The Whole Earth Review_ on the Bill of
    Rights.  The above include reading parts of the Revised Statutes
    Annotated; the Massachusetts Code; the entire US Constitution; the
    entire New Hampshire Constitution; parts of the Massachusetts
    Constitution; the Federal Register; the Code of Federal Regulations;
    indices into court cases; court cases at state superior, federal
    circuit, federal appellate, and federal supreme levels; summaries of
    legal points; the Congressional Record; the Rules of New Hampshire
    Superior Court; one federal jurisdiction's model jury instructions; the
    Rules of New Hampshire Supreme Court; the Federal Rules of Evidence;
    Nashua Ordinances; documents obtained from the NH Attorney General
    under the Right to Know law; and writing petitions, motions,
    objections, requests under the Freedom of Information Act, requests
    under the Privacy Act, and a few interesting challenges of the NH
    Attorney General's office, the Department of Revenue, and other
    agencies.
    
    Oh, and I have visited the Franklin Pierce Law Center (a law school),
    but I didn't learn anything there (except how little honest lawyers
    make).
    
    I will give you one more piece of legal advice for free:  There's no
    law preventing any person from giving away legal advice.  Lawyers do
    not have a monopoly on it.  In New Hampshire, you do not even need to
    be a lawyer to represent somebody in court; any person of good
    character may do it.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
             
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

>    So, Eric, when did you get your law degree.....and pass the
>    Bar in the respective states?
    
Possesion of a degree and the ability to add value are not very well
correlated.

    Oops, I forgot the Boston federal building, the Concord federal
    building, the New Hampshire Supreme Court Clerk's office, the New
    Hampshire Department of Labor, the US Labor Department, and maybe a few
    others.        
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    
    
    And in Massachusetts, taking someone's car without their prior
    permission is "not" theft, unless you resell it or part it out, 
    it is simply "using without permission".
    I've read the Lowell newspapers enough times in the 3 years I lived
    there to know this.  
    
    Someone in this string may have to much time on their hands.
    
    /art

>Actually, someone walked out of LKG with the IBM mainframe last week so we're
>down to one.

:)

re the rest of this discussion,

I still can't help feeling that there's a degree of deliberate obtuseness 
about the matter of wandering off with property if Digital is unable to prove 
on the spot that it may not be that person's property.

Chris.

    Yo Socrates.  Stop with the arguments and drink the hemlock already.

    RE: .98
    
    >>In New Hampshire, you do not even need to be a lawyer to represent
    >>somebody in court; any person of good character may do it.
    
    Looks like we've just eliminated from eligability the current round of
    politicians that are currently polluting our air.

    >>In New Hampshire, you do not even need to be a lawyer to represent
    >>somebody in court; any person of good character may do it.
    
    ... sounds like an "either, or" proposition to me ...

I'll note that if one has not signed an employee agreement or contract, then
one is an "employee at will" whose employment can be terminated without
cause by either party.

					Steve

>> I'll note that if one has not signed an employee agreement or contract, then
>> one is an "employee at will" whose employment can be terminated without
>> cause by either party.
    
    Isn't this true even for those that *HAVE* signed the employee
    agreement?
    

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    	Eric, did you ever find out what type of items need to be signed
    	in and what type of items don't?
    
    	Stapler/telephone/calculator/sweatshirt?  Or just computer-related
    	equipment?  And maybe office furnishings?
    	

Re: .108

TFSO is not "termination without cause", but the job itself going away, and
it is treated differently.

			Steve

    
    	BTW, I was once detained [for about 30 seconds] by a member of
    	the Lincoln Mall [RI] security force for "suspicion of theft".
    
    	I was in the mall, and it was during the closing week of the
    	Zayres store.  I bought a pair of quilted flannel shirts [I love
    	those things!!] for about $6.50 each [usually $15 each] and for
    	some reason happened to come back the next night.
    
    	Well, it's near closing time, and I'm hurrying out of Zayres to
    	get to Caldor [at the other end of the mall] when I was stopped
    	by security.  I was wearing 1 of the flannel shirts, and he asks
    	me something like "Where are you going with that shirt?".  So I
    	answered, "It's mine.  I bought it last night ... bought 2 of
    	them.".  So he asks me, "Why are you in such a hurry?"  And I
    	answered that the mall was going to close soon and that I was
    	headed for Caldor.  He just looked at me for a couple seconds,
    	maybe waiting for me to confess that I did in fact steal a $6
    	shirt, but when I didn't, and he didn't say anything either, I
    	added "Look, all my stuff is in my pockets." [I had a pack of
    	cigarettes, very probably a pen, a set or 2 of keys, and a bunch
    	of reminder notes in both pockets ... where else would I have kept
    	all this crap if I didn't wear the shirt into the store?]  When
    	THAT didn't seem to phase him, all I could say was "Look, I can't
    	prove it, but I bought it last night."
    
    	So he looked at me for another 5 seconds or so and either decided
    	that I wasn't worth the aggravation or that I might actually be
    	telling the truth, so he let me go.  And I did go, and I didn't
    	look back, since I was pretty sure he wouldn't shoot me.
    

>> TFSO is not "termination without cause", but the job itself going away, and
>> it is treated differently.
    
    My point was that in the U.S. (other countries will differ) most
    employees are considered to work "at will" and can be let go with or
    without cause.  Digital does not have to establish cause or to
    determine that your job has disappeared (become redundant they say in
    the U.K.) to terminate you.  This is mitigated by laws affecting age,
    sex, and racial discrimination as well as a few other things like
    employment and union contracts.
    
    However, as long as they don't violate these things, you are basically
    unprotected.  I have not read the employment agreement I signed in a
    while (may never) but I don't think there is anything in there that
    gives you any type of job security.  In fact, a recent update to the
    Orangebook made reference to the fact that employment can be terminated
    at any time and without notice by either Digital or the employee.
    
    Larry 
    

    Re .112:
    
    > In fact, a recent update to the Orangebook made reference to the fact
    > that employment can be terminated at any time and without notice by
    > either Digital or the employee.
    
    Um, well, I still don't have my legal degree, but I kinda gotta figure
    that Digital can't actually fire you without telling you you're fired.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    
      > But I kinda gotta figure
      > Digital can't actually fire you without telling you you're fired.
    
      In most cases yes,  but missing 3 consecutive work days without
    calling in (or prior notice) can get you terminated.
    
      Likewise,  you can set sail for the bahamas, without telling dec
    you quit.
    
    

    I can't comment on the legality of what Digital can and can't do.  The
    following is extracted from Section 2.01 of the Company Policies and
    Procedures and is what I was referencing.
    
 TERM OF EMPLOYMENT

 | Either the employee or the company may terminate the employment
 | relationship at any time, with or without cause and with or without
 | notice.

    

    
    	Ummm, Eric was pointing out the subtle difference between
    
    
    	without notice
    
    	and
    
    	without advance notice
    
    
    	IE, if they fire you, they have to tell you sometime, whether
    	it's before the fact or after.
    

>    Um, well, I still don't have my legal degree, but I kinda gotta figure
>    that Digital can't actually fire you without telling you you're fired.
    
that reminds me (and just to go *completely* off topic!), I was particularly 
impressed with the tact and diplomacy used by one of Jack Tramiel's companies 
(can't remember which one, probably Atari) to inform employees that they were 
no longer needed; they'd just make an announcement over the tannoy.  Nothing 
beats the personal touch, eh?

Chris.

    Mr. EDP, a question.
    
    If you ran a company, how would you ensure that your assets weren't
    heading out the door? Let's say you manufactured laptops?
    
    What would you do?
    
    just curious
    
    
    thanks
    
    steve

        Re .118;
     Steve,
    	On more than one occasion, Eric stated what he thought was
    appropriate.  If someone was suspected of stealing.  Get name, badge
    number of suspect, get a description of property, possibly a serial
    number, and take pictures.  Notify management and possibly the police.

    	My question:  Isn't that enough?

    Jim Morton

    re 119.
    
    yeah, but, what steps would he take to DETERMINE if someone is
    stealing in the first place? how would he distinguish a company owned
    notebook from a personally owned one? 

    Re .118:
    
    > If you ran a company, how would you ensure that your assets weren't
    > heading out the door? Let's say you manufactured laptops?

    How many times do I have to repeat this?  If an employee is heading out
    the door with a questionable item, take a picture.  Write down their
    name.  Write down a description of the property.
    
    If it turns out the property was yours, then you can call the police
    and go and get it back.  If it is not, no harm done.
    
    If the item is NOT questionable; if you KNOW it is yours, then you can
    take it.  Even if it is questionable, doesn't that make the proper
    course of action immediately apparent?  If it is questionable, then
    question the employee.  Most thieves will confess right away.  If they
    deny it is your property, let them go and handle it later.
    
    If you want to reduce theft still more, then implement additional
    measures:  Mark your property.  Keep the valuable stuff locked up.  Et
    cetera.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    Re .120:
    
    > how would he distinguish a company owned notebook from a personally
    > owned one? 
    
    Serial numbers, asset tags, ask the employee, count the notebooks left
    to see if any are missing, keep the company notebooks under lock and
    key.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    
    	Eesh, I'm reading "notebooks" and thinking "spiral-bound notepad
    	with white-lined paper" and wondering who in the world would do
    	the tagging and serializing on them.
    

      <<< Note 4393.121 by RUSURE::EDP "Always mount a scratch monkey." >>>

>    Re .118:
    
>    > If you ran a company, how would you ensure that your assets weren't
>    > heading out the door? Let's say you manufactured laptops?

>    How many times do I have to repeat this?  If an employee is heading out
>    the door with a questionable item, take a picture.  Write down their
>    name.  Write down a description of the property.
    

     Presumably x-ray cameras will be used for memory chips etc?

     I am amazed that you manage to tolerate such an oppressive regime.


    Stuart ( ex-Camberwell lending library London S.E.5 ...England )

    Re .124:
    
    > Presumably x-ray cameras will be used for memory chips etc?
     
    What does this have to do with the subject of discussion?  The issue
    taken with the policy is the TAKING of property, not its DISCOVERY.
    
    Will allowing Digital to take property an employee cannot prove they
    own increase or decrease the number of memory chips Digital discovers
    being taken out?  Will prohibiting Digital from taking property an
    employee cannot prove they own increase or decrease the number of
    memory chips Digital discovers being taken out?
    
    Quite obviously, this question you have raised has nothing to do with
    whether employee property should be taken or not.
    
    If you discover an employee has memory chips as they leave, does
    whether Digital should take those chips depend in any way upon whether
    the chips were discovered by visual inspection or by x-ray camera?
    
    Why don't you rethink this idea and get back to us in a while?
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

      <<< Note 4393.121 by RUSURE::EDP "Always mount a scratch monkey." >>>


>    How many times do I have to repeat this?  If an employee is heading out
>    the door with a questionable item, take a picture.  Write down their
>    name.  Write down a description of the property.
    
 
     Sorry , I was confused. Maybe Camberwell library isn't all its cracked
     up to be.

     Stuart

    Re .124
    
     *  Will allowing Digital to take property an employee cannot prove they
     *  own increase or decrease the number of memory chips Digital discovers
     *  being taken out?  Will prohibiting Digital from taking property an
     *  employee cannot prove they own increase or decrease the number of
     *  memory chips Digital discovers being taken out?
    
    
    Where do you get the idea that they are going to do anything like the
    above statement???  I know they are not going to take your stuff away
    from you.  I work in HLO and have spoken to several security folks,
    these are not the plans.  You folks are getting too carried away.
    This is common practice in many similar companies, They are not doing a
    body search, just a, "Hi {insert name} Would you please open your 
    briefcase/bags/boxes or what ever".    
    
    	They are not going to say,  
    
    SG	"Where's your receipt for that calculator, and walkman, punk?"
    
    YOU "I-I-I  d-don't have one sir I got them as a gift"
    
    SG  "Gimmie that you thief, your supervisor will be informed in the
         morning, and if you decide to return your gonna have to ask
         yourself a question, Do I feel lucky?, Well DO YOU PUNK!!"
    
       You folks are a roit,  I love the humor in this file when Digital
    decides to envoke some changes.   
     
    
    Thanks for the laughs.
    Les
    

    
    	RE: -1
    
    >If Digital property is found without the required paperwork, it will
    >be held until the issue is resolved.
    

    Y'know, after reading this lot, I wonder if my grip on reality might
    be slipping...
    
    Laurie.

    Re: -1
    not slipping... someone is stealing it away from you :-)
    
    

Do you have a receipt for that reality?

		Steve

    RE: - 1
    
    For reality receipts, check VTX RLTY_CHK
    jc

    Re .127:
    
    > Where do you get the idea that they are going to do anything like the
    > above statement???  I know they are not going to take your stuff away
    > from you.
    
    From note 4393.0.  The policy explicitly states property will be held:
    
         If you are unable to provide the  necessary paperwork or
         prove an item is personal property, the item  will be held by
         Security and the issue will be worked through your manager.
         
    > I work in HLO and have spoken to several security folks, these are
    > not the plans.
    
    Well, then they won't have any problem rescinding that part of the
    policy, will they?
    
    > You folks are getting too carried away.
    
    What's getting carried away?  Digital said it _will_ take property if
    you cannot prove it is yours.  I said I will press charges.  That's a
    proportionate response.  If Digital doesn't take my property, I won't
    press charges.  What do you think is getting carried away?
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    What VTX RLTY_CHK ?  It is VTX ZXY  Nobody knows why Reality Check has
    keyword of ZXY but you better remember that ZXY stands for Reality
    Check.
    
    - Vikas

    *   What's getting carried away?  Digital said it _will_ take property if
    *   you cannot prove it is yours.  I said I will press charges.  That's
    *	aproportionate response.  If Digital doesn't take my property, I
    *   won't press charges.  What do you think is getting carried away?
    *   
    *                               -- edp
     
    
    Please don't stop the endorphin(sp.) rush is great....
    
    Thanks
    Les   
    
    
    

Reality is a leading cause of stress for those in touch with it.

    I just love it when people give me a good laugh.
    
    Charles

Les,

I just received a notice in the mail via PROPER from Fred Smith, the HLO Security Manager that said:
tha in preparation for the Material/Package Inspection Program that begins Monday
(2/12), he has been asked by several employees if there is a need to register
personal property that is already in one the buildings and was not registered
upon arrival. He said that if the personal property could be confused with a company asset
or has a serial number and may be susceptible to theft, it should be brought
to one one of the lobbies and registered with Security.  This will avoid
confusion when you try to remove the personal property.

Sounds to me like there is a very good possibility that they will "take your stuff away".
This is talking about personal belongings like your calculator. Now it doesn't say that
they will only take it if someone has reported a like personal belonging stolen, i.e.
Mary Doe reported that her TI 300SUX calculator was stolen and you happen to have a 
TI 300SUX calculator in your briefcase then you'd better be able to prove it's yours.

Now I should say here that I worked in Security for this company for six years at three
different sites and that I've known Fred since I started in this company 16 years ago. Also,
until last week, I worked at HLO for several years so I have some insight on this whole thing.
Personally, I'd like to see more/better communications on this so everyone can calm down.
This can all go one way or the other in how it's implemented - it can be a reasonable, well-handled 
non-issue or it can get draconian and you'll have a lot of pissed off employees. I'm betting
that it will be handled in a rational, sensible manner but all we can do is wait and see.

             <<< HUMANE::DISK$SCSI:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< The Digital way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 4393.138          HLO institues new security measures            138 of 138
ENGPTR::MCMAHON "DEC: ReClaim TheName!"              24 lines   8-FEB-1996 16:30
                                 -< re: .127 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Les,

I just received a notice in the mail via PROPER from Fred Smith, the HLO
Security Manager that said: tha in preparation for the Material/Package
Inspection Program that begins Monday (2/12), he has been asked by several
employees if there is a need to register personal property that is already in
one the buildings and was not registered upon arrival. He said that if the
personal property could be confused with a company asset or has a serial
number and may be susceptible to theft, it should be brought to one one of the
lobbies and registered with Security.  This will avoid confusion when you try
to remove the personal property.

Sounds to me like there is a very good possibility that they will "take your
stuff away". This is talking about personal belongings like your calculator.
Now it doesn't say that they will only take it if someone has reported a like
personal belonging stolen, i.e. Mary Doe reported that her TI 300SUX
calculator was stolen and you happen to have a  TI 300SUX calculator in your
briefcase then you'd better be able to prove it's yours.

Now I should say here that I worked in Security for this company for six years
at three different sites and that I've known Fred since I started in this
company 16 years ago. Also, until last week, I worked at HLO for several years
so I have some insight on this whole thing. Personally, I'd like to see
more/better communications on this so everyone can calm down. This can all go
one way or the other in how it's implemented - it can be a reasonable,
well-handled  non-issue or it can get draconian and you'll have a lot of
pissed off employees. I'm betting that it will be handled in a rational,
sensible manner but all we can do is wait and see.

    re: .139 
    
    Thanks.

The "real" crime is that we had to wait until a VP personally experienced a 
theft until anything was done about the security problem.  No action was 
ever taken when Mr. Joe Hardworking Employee lost his CD Player from his 
desk or the theft of his car from the parking lot.


							-Paul

re Note 4393.141 by STAR::jacobi.zko.dec.com::JACOBI:

> The "real" crime is that we had to wait until a VP personally experienced a 
> theft until anything was done about the security problem.  

        That's just another reason why having a plentiful supply of
        VPs is an employee "benefit"!

        Bob

	RE: Most, read this again!!!





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    RE; A couple back: It is coincendental that the VP issue and this
    action has taken place at the same time. The efforts taking place now
    are part of a long term effort started a couple of years back, you just
    see the front effort now.
    
    BTW_ I was at a Digital location this morning. The person at the desk
    asked for my badge and cost center. After I gave her my cost center she
    handed me a different badge witha a number an a proximity marker. She
    instructed me on how to get to the location inside the building I was
    to supposed to be at. After the meeting I had to return the badge, was
    checked off in the book and my Digital badge was returned. I never
    signed anything including the book. I only see this as part of doing
    compnay business at this Digital site.
    
    Howard
    
    [It's easier to get into the Air Base than that building.]
    Have to find a new parking space on Monday, the old one is toooooo far
    from the door. 

    
    	RE: coincidence
    
    	Keep thinking that.  Why would it ever take a couple years to
    	"implement" a policy that says "we will check your bags"?  That
    	is something that could be "implemented" in 2 days.
    
    	The previous noter was probably right on ... someone who has
    	the power to make a decision like this had something happen to
    	him that might have happened to many other people in the past,
    	without any change in policy resulting.
    
    	If his car gets stolen, I wonder if HLO will get toll gates at
    	all the entrances and exits.
    

    RE: 145 2+ years ago I was involved in a program to streamline some
    manufacturing and logistics processes here at HLO. Changes were
    underway then to tighten security.
    
    This is just the part that is visible to lots of people. No one outside
    of HLO complained when there were methods put in place for 'one person
    one authorization' for the fab. We have had to review card key access
    on a quaterly basis for a long time. Just because you don't see the
    background work, doesn't mean it's not being done.

    Who is the person responsible for the security across all facilities
    or is it facility specific?
    
    For instance, here at ZKO, the nice lady at the front desk hasn't
    even asked for my badge in 6 months!
    
    At my previous employer, the guards looking in briefcases, lunchbags,
    etc. on the way IN and the way OUT.  They also had to physically
    handle your badge and verify it was your picture on the badge...
    
    				-John

    
    	We do have corporate security, but I don't know where they're
    	based.
    

re: .143

>
>	RE: Most, read this again!!!
>	  (multiple content-free form-feed-separated lines deleted for brevity)

Why?  It was annoying enough the first time.

-Hal

        RE: .146

    	This policy didn't happen just two years ago.  I've been with DEC
    for 21� years and it was in place when I started they just never
    enforced it.

    Joe

re 4393.60:

my sentiments exactly...

-s
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

     It's been two weeks since the package inspection started and two weeks
    since the last comment in here. I have one question....
     Where did all the complainers go?? 

> It's been two weeks since the package inspection started and two weeks
> since the last comment in here. I have one question....
> Where did all the complainers go?? 

  Jail?

                                   Atlant

    
    	The lines at the desk must REALLY be backing up, and all the
    	noters are still waiting to be searched.
    

> <<< Note 4393.154 by BUSY::SLABOUNTY "Don't like my p_n? 1-800-328-7448" >>>
    
>    	The lines at the desk must REALLY be backing up, and all the
>    	noters are still waiting to be searched.

That's what it looked like this morning!

	mikeP

    Most of the complainers do not work in HLO they are just complainers
    working at DEC ;>)

    Re .152:
    
    Is it necessary for me to remind you frequently of my policy?  It has
    not changed, and you may rest assured it will not change without
    notice.  If Digital takes any of my property, I still intend to charge
    Digital with theft.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    I have been unable to figure out why you get searched on the way
    into HLO. Are they looking for guns, bombs or booze ? It's
    pretty rediculous.
    
    Mike

Spy cameras.

    Yep, searching on the way in is very important if you're trying to
    stop industrial espionage and sabotage.
    
    				-John

> <<< Note 4393.160 by TLE::REAGAN "All of this chaos makes perfect sense" >>>

>   Yep, searching on the way in is very important if you're trying to
>   stop industrial espionage and sabotage.
    
>    				-John

I don't think you can stop it that way.  That's not why it's being doen anyway.

 WHY ARE WE INSPECTING MATERIAL/PACKAGES COMING INTO THE SITE?

 Materials/packages are being inspected as they come into the site to 
 ensure personal property is being registered, cameras and recording 
 devices are accompanied by the appropriate paperwork, chemicals are 
 not entering through the lobbies and that weapons are not being 
 brought onto the property.

Going out I can understand whether I like it or not.  

I stopped carrying a briefcase.  Used a canvas bag that could not be closed
instead.  Besides a file folder or two this gave me room for a Thermos and my
lunch.  Always put my lunch in one of those little brown paper bags.  Got 
tired of them poking around, using a pencil so they wouldn't touch anything, so
I started to just carry the file folders and my lunch in the little brown paper
bag.

Then they wanted to open the lunch bag!

They never asked me to open it when it was in the canvas bag.  What makes it
different now?

I don't bring my lunch any more either.  I do not like being searched.

I don't know if security has released any statistics on how much contraband,
deliberate or inadvertent that this has uncovered.  Don't know how much theft
has been prevented by this.  I don't expect to see a report either.

    RE .157
    
    No, It's not neccesary for you to repeat yourself, You've done
    that enough already!

   Re: .161
   
   What kind of paperwork is needed for a recording device?  Since most
   modern laptops contain builtin microphones and recording software,
   they are recording devices.
   
   I'm just curious.  I work at DoD sites, and everyone I know that
   carries such a laptop never declares it as a recording device.  Sort
   of like PDPs not being computers (good ol' govmint).

    	Any body cavity searches yet? I mean, most of what anyone might
    steal from HLO is pretty small. Small cameras and other espionage
    equipment are small too. Knowing there are these increased security
    measures, what kinds of nitwit spies are they hoping to catch this way?
    Anyone with half a brain can defeat these security measures if they're
    so inclined. All they're accomplishing is making loyal employees FEEL
    like thieves and making HLO a pretty miserable place to work. Unless,
    of course, this is another creative way to encourage attrition if HLO
    is overstaffed.

	RE: .161

	I hope they searched/tested your thermos to be sure you weren't 
	smuggling in any chemicals...  ;^}

    re .161
    
    The security folks have been told to search; so naturally they want to
    look inside something. Whatever you are carying they will want to open.
    A plastic lunch container it is not interesting while in a briefcase;
    but cary it in your hand and be prepared to have it searched...
    
    ...so don't take those spagetti encrusted Tupperware containers to the
    washroom after lunch to wash them any more...let your local Protective
    Services have a real close look!   8^)
    
    Seriously, there will be some who are a little too keen about this, but
    in a while it will be routine. Here in KAO they aren't too interested
    in what we had for lunch any more...just that we ate it all up like
    our mothers would want.
    
    r
    

    When Quantum announced closure of their disk drive manufacturing at CXO
    we all experienced daily searches on the way out for at least a month.  
    I bike to work and run during lunch hour.  With great delight I opened 
    my backpack to the security guard so he/she could examine my dirty clothes 
    and dirty lunch containers.  The searches became very brief within a 
    couple of days and they sometimes just let me through without a glance
    inside the backpack.  Searches are a pain but the guards have it worse !

    This reminds me of something that happened in my old hometown 
    (well, close by) a few years ago.  It seems that motorcyclists
    were parking two or three to a parking meter, thereby depriving
    the city of parking meter revenue.  The edict came down: thou
    shalt park only one vehicle per meter.  So the motorcyclists,
    being good citizens, cooperated fully one Thursday evening when
    all the stores were open until 9:00.  By about 6:30 they had
    the entire main street parked solidly with motorcycles, all
    nice and legally one to a meter, and no car could find a place 
    to park.  The merchants were not pleased.  The parking meter 
    edict quietly went away shortly thereafter.
    
    Sometimes, enthusiastic cooperation is the most effective way to
    illustrate the unreasonableness of a policy.  And, if it's not
    unreasonable, ...well, you can't do anything about it anyway, so
    you may as well cooperate and save yourself an ulcer.

    
    	In a nutshell, Steve's suggesting that all HLO employees and
    	visitors come into work with a minimum of:
    
    	1)  a suitcase, packed for no less than a 14-day vacation in
    	    the tropics
    
    	2)  a duffel bag with exercise clothes and monitoring equip-
    	    ment
    
    	3)  a military field jacket with no less than 10 pockets
    

   I don't this cooperation needs to be that drastic.  I mean the point
   is to inconvenience the serchers, not the searchees.
   
   Simply have everyone insist that the guards check everyone and
   everything upon leaving.  If they happen to find nasty stuff in the
   process (oh, yeah, I really meant to clean to tupperware bowl out) so
   be it.

    the "searchees" are already inconvenienced.  They can no longer use the
    un-manned entrances.  I sure hope this does not spread to other
    facilities.  :-(
    
    Mark

Why make life hard for the guards?  They don't set the policy and they
don't even affect it.

___Pete

    But they enforce it. Make it hard enough to do the job and the won't. 
    As an example, 70 MPH state troopers in a 55 MPH zone.  Why?  Because
    they won't enforce the law until they are in a money crunch and the
    state needs more revenue.  Donut run?  Not unlikely.  
    
    By the way, are these searches considered company time or personal
    time?  Leave at 5 PM, stand in line at a company REQUIRED search until
    5:30 sounds like OT to me.  By law if I understand the the Federal
    posters around the workplace.
    
    B.

Re .-1: "why not?"

Because it's ineffectual and creates needless ill will.  Pragmatically,
because it's ineffectual, creates ill will, and you may need that guard
some day.  And finally, because it's ineffectual and discourteous.

___Pete

re -2
Half an hour wait?  Hardly - I doubt I've waited more than a minute since this
started.

I think the guards got the worst of it.  They now have someone posted at
the HLO2 door 24 hours a day rather than switching to keycards at 7:00 pm

Tim

  I do not think the guards work longer hours.  We hired new guards and
  trained all of them for this search program.

  	mikeP

    .161:
    
� I don't bring my lunch any more either.  I do not like being searched.
    
    
    Wonder if there was any collusion with the company which runs the
    cafeteria?
    
    Dick

    re .158
    
        I have been unable to figure out why you get searched on the way
        into HLO. Are they looking for guns, bombs or booze ? It's
        pretty rediculous.
        
        Mike
    
    I asked them a few days back (as they were searching my lunch from
    checkerboards...) - the respone:  "Drugs and weapons"  It is truely
    sad... I worked for TI in Houston (where they do some DoD work) and
    they weren't this bad - I came to work up here in Hudson because of the
    open and trusting attitude this site/company seemed to have - I guess
    such is the way of things in companies/groups that are too large to
    listen to their employees.  At least one friend of mine is leaving due
    to the changes around here (and a few others are thinking about it). 
    These changes have erased the one advantage Digital had in hiring
    (salary/monetary incentives it definitely does not have).
    
    -scot
    

    
    
    >> - the respone:  "Drugs and weapons"
    
    This is hilarious ! I don't know anyone who hides their "Drugs and
    weapons" in lunch bags, purses etc. when knowing you are going to be
    searched. All my friends bring their drugs to work in their pockets
    and their weapons are carried in their boots, pockets, shoulder
    holsters, back holsters and various other places. I hope insecurity
    doesn't figure this out, soon we'll have metal detectors, drug and
    bomb sniffing dogs and pat downs.
    
    Sign me anonymous ( so insecurity doesn't raid my office )  

    
    Have they searched any cars yet??

    Re: .179
    
    Everybody who's anybody transports drugs in packets sewn into their
    stomachs.  Maybe HLO sec. should start searching people for new sutures
    or surgical staple markings.
    
    George

    	From now on, HLO employees are required to leave a fresh
    stool sample at the front desk on the way in and a urine sample
    on the way out. And if you forget to bring one, guards will force
    you to make a poopie while they watch. If you're not a morning BM
    person, you can arrange to leave your stool sample on the way out
    instead since Digital values this difference.

    Do I see a business opportunity here or what.
    

    
    OK, from the better late than never file...
    
    As a strong opponent of the current search policy in HLO, I'd 
    prefer to attempt to influence the policy rather than to simply be
    upset and/or angry about it.
    
    Thus, I would like to start a petition drive requesting removal
    of the policy.  If you are interested in working on the petition,
    please let me know.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Joe

  As much as I dislike the policy and have modified what I take in or out of
  the building on a daily basis to avoid the search, I think getting up a
  petition drive is a very bad idea.

  The search policy can be said to be justified although not well applied and
  less than efficient and we have no way of know how effective.  I believe a
  petition movement would only serve to annoy management.  As someone once
  said, management does not serve at the will of the employees.

  	mikeP

    I don't think I would mind if they only wanted to search my stuff on
    the way out, but I don't see what the incoming search does. I really
    don't appreciate having to display my lunch on the way in the building
    every day.

    I would sign a petition to remove the search on the way into the
    building.

    -Bruce  

    
>  I believe a petition movement would only serve to annoy management.  As 
>  someone once said, management does not serve at the will of the employees.
    
    No, it does not; however, it's certainly in management's best interest
    to provide a good workplace for employees.  Given that (as stated
    elsewhere in this note and in my own experience) many employees are put 
    off by this policy, some apparently to the point of leaving the
    company, it would seem to me that management would prefer to know
    the level of discontent with the policy.  It certainly could be the
    case that there is insufficient discontent to warrant any action.
    
>  As much as I dislike the policy and have modified what I take in or out of
>  the building on a daily basis to avoid the search, I think getting up a
>  petition drive is a very bad idea.
    
    OK, why?  What harm can it do?  Say that some significant number of
    signatures are collected.  Management then knows how many people
    are upset by the policy.  Whether that brings about any action
    will then be management's decision; they'll just have one more
    datapoint to work with.
    
    Joe

    They want to check the condition of the UZI or AK47 that you are
    bringing in to to the Post Office shuffle.
    
    Dave

    
>    I don't think I would mind if they only wanted to search my stuff on
>    the way out, but I don't see what the incoming search does. I really
>    don't appreciate having to display my lunch on the way in the building
>    every day.
>
>    I would sign a petition to remove the search on the way into the
>    building.
    
    I'd agree that this should be a (the?) primary goal; while I feel that a
    modification to the outgoing inspection would be ideal, it is the
    incoming inspection which I find to be the most needlessly
    intrusive.
    
    Joe