Conference vmszoo::rc

    Jim,
    
    	You say you didn't use after run oil after the first bench run.
    How long after that did you start using the engine. If the climate is
    right (and it is here in the Northeast) you'd be surprised how quickly
    things rust.
    
    	Second question. What kind of after run oil are you using.
    
    Thirdly, all the above aside, run, don't walk, to your nearest FAX 
    machine and send a letter to the president of Tower. Be nice but
    explain your displeasure and the fact that this should not have
    happened.
    
    MAKE SURE you slip into the conversation the fact that you have sought
    the advice of MANY other flyers in an OPEN COMPUTER NETWORK and not
    one agrees that this should have happend. Also mention that many
    flyers ACROSS THE COUNTRY are VERY SURPRISED that Tower is not covering
    the engine under warranty and are anxiously awaiting the results of
    your letter.
    
    I think you'll find the results very satisfactory.
    
    P.S.   the reason I asked what type of after run oil you use is the
    following. Alot of people use WD40. This is fine if you use it from the
    getgo. Otherwise, WD40 helps to REMOVE rust. Meaning that if you
    allowed rust to develop after the initial bench run, the WD40 would
    have loosened that rust and sent it through the engine. I believe most
    oils like Marvel Mystery oil, tranny fluid, etc. do the same thing.
    
    Send the letter.......
    

That's a big engine and it would need a lot of afterrun to coat it. You also
need to run the engine dry and be sure to disconnect the tank connections (I use
a small piece of brass to connect the pressure tube to the fuel draw tube. Any
raw fuel back into the engine can cause problems. I fill the venturi on my carbs
3-4 times with Mobil-1 and flip it threw. I also make sure the muffler is empty
so nothing goes back in through the exhaust. The only other thought would be
humidity in the area where you store your planes...

Without a description/seeing how you "afterrun" your engines, we can only guess.

    As you guys know, I am not very knowledgeable about engines.  After
    each flying session I disconnect the fuel line and flip the engine over
    (by hand) till it will no longer run. I leave the fuel line
    disconnected.  I then put Robart "Snake Oil" afterrun oil in the carb
    and turn it over by hand approximately 10-20 times.
    
    The plane was stored in my basement which is quite damp in the summer.
    I dump out 2.5 gallons of water about every day and a half from the
    dehumidifier which runs round the clock.  I have noticed the top of
    my table saw and some of my framing squares being a bit rusty, so
    probably my basement is too damp to keep model airplane engines.
    
    What surprised most of the local O.S. engine experts is that so much
    damage could have occurred in 2 months of ownership with only 2 gallons
    of fuel run through the engine.  Local engine guru Dick Parshall said
    the engine looked like it had 3-4 seasons of use.  My friend Robin who
    owns 20-30 O.S. engines claims he never uses afterrun oil except at the
    end of the year and has never had a problem.
    
    So I really am a bit confused.  I will store the planes in the garage
    next summer(which will be a pain) instead of the basement.  I think I
    will probably move to gas engines in the future and be done with the
    methanol associated problems.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Jim

    Just my opinion: that engine was corroded to begin with. I can't
    IMAGINE that much corrosion occuring over the course of a couple
    months, especially considering your after run treatment. I store my
    Magnum engine (in the UltraSport) in my garage, which is damp like most
    concrete floored garages. I probably remember to use the after run oil
    50% of the time. And after 3 years, there is some surface corrosion on
    the internal parts but I wouldn't go so far as to call it "rust".
    Certainly not enough to affect its operation.
    
    I think you got an engine that was rebuilt, or improperly stored, or
    was otherwise hosed to begin with. Very suspicious for an OS engine.
    
    Dave
    

Remember Jim, you really only have to store the fuselages. It's the Nitro that's
corrosive. Dan Weier had talked about running 0% FAI fuel through his engine at
the end of the day. The only thing I can think of is not putting enough oil in
along with the basement humidity. One of my buddies actually runs the engine up
and then pulls the fuel line off the carb. His theory is that the running engine
does a more thourough job of sucking the fuel through and out. He doesn't think
just hand flipping gets it all. Me... I bought a quart of Mobil 1 so I give the
engine several venturi fulls at the end of each day. I figure the extra oil
won't hurt (I've seen guys plug their mufflers and carbs for storage too) Ask
Charlie Watt about why he couldn't get his engine to run one day due to
forgetting the muffler plug (got rich REAL quick 8^)

    This business about nitro being corrosive has sparked a lot of debate
    among the engine sages in my club.  After my 1.08 died I mentioned to
    a few people that I might switch to FAI fuel and some felt that was not
    a bad idea.  Others immediately said that nitro was not corrosive
    either in liquid form or as a result of combustion.  It is the methanol
    that causes the rust, they claim.  One guy even faxed me an article
    exonerating nitro from casuing an corrosion problems.
    
    As usual a lot of dissenting opinions from highly experienced people?
    
    
    So...IS NITRO
    CORROSIVE?????????????????????????????????????????????????
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Jim
    

Nitromethanol and methanol (dry gas) are both agroscopic (they attract water).
nitromethane is also a better oxidizer than methanol (which is why larger
percentages provide more power). Rust is SLOW oxidation. Perhaps corrosive was a
misleading term? Oil prevents the oxidation by protecting the parts from
atmospheric exposure due to the film of oil. Some people claim that Castor oil
fuels do this normally since there's a layer of goop left on the parts.

I have had engines that have been carted around (moving, etc.) for 10-15 years
that were fine (but back then I used 100% castor fuels). I used to pickle my
engines for the winter with 3-in-1 oil and plugs for all the openings.  I've had
bearings go bad in the same environment recently and have been flying 50-50
castor/synthetic. I now use Mobil 1 as an afterrun on all my bearing engines (I
don't gets fanatical about it and sometimes don't bother on bushing engines)

    
    Jim B.,
    
       Sorry to hear of your OS 1.08 woes. It must be especially
    frustrating for a glider/electric pilot who is gettin their first
    exposure to glo engines!
    
       I store my planes/helis in the basement. During the summer, my
    dehumidifier pumps out about a gallon of water a day. I ALWAYS use
    Mobil One as an after run ( except with helis, because there is
    no easy way to get the after run oil in ). 
       I have not had any problems until recently regarding corrosion. The 
    problems I have had of late are with a YS.61 with a tuned pipe attached,
    and with a heli engine. On the YS, speculation is that fuel is getting 
    back into the engine from the pipe. I am now taking extra precautions to
    make sure I store the fuselage with the pipe lower than the engine. I also 
    have drastically increased the amount of Mobil One I am using from 5-6 drops
    to several carburators full like Jim Reith reccommends. I also use the
    starter on the engine after putting the afterrun oil in to make sure it
    goes through several dozen revolutions.
         The FAI fuel experiments I have been doing are on the Helis. Since
    I can't get afterrrun oil in, I figure the next best thing is to
    eliminate the nitro. From what I have heard, both the Nitro and the
    Alchohol casue corrosion problems, but the Nitro is the worst offender
    ( which increases with higher nitro content ). I run the FAI fuel for 
    about a minute at the end of the flying session, and then make sure I run 
    all the fuel out. I have only been trying this for a few months, but when 
    I checked my OS .61 SX a month or so ago, it was very clean inside. I will
    be pulling the engine again shortly to check out the longer term effects.
    
         I have never used the FAI fuel treatment on airplane engines, and
    am not planning to do so in the future. If you do the following things
    after each flying session, it should more than suffice:
    
       1. Run ALL the fuel out of the engine
       2. Isolate the fuel tank from the engine
       3. Use a good afterrun oil ( several carbs full )
       4. make sure the afterrun is thoroughly circulated through the
          engine 
       5. Eliminate any way for fuel to get back into the engine ( from the
          muffler, tuned pipe, tank, etc ).
    
          I also believe that your engine was improperly stored at some point
      (likely prior to your purchase ), and that it is VERY unusual for
      a engine (especially an O.S.) to develop corrosion problems that quickly.
    
                                             Good Luck,
    
                                                   Dan
    
    

    re: -1
    
    The most frustrating thing about this experience has been being
    without a plane just as I was getting the hang of it.  The last 
    two flights I took were my first solo flights!  With the ring on back
    order it looks like my power flying has ended for the year :>(
    
    Up until the engine died it was a joy to fly.  It started very easily
    by hand and had incredible power.  It hauled the 13 lb. towplane around
    with ease.
    
    Hopefully it will run as well after the repair and will be a strong and
    reliable performer in the future.  It will find a home on a Senior
    Telemaster next year for glider towing and my continued power flying
    training.
    
    At this point I still would recommend the engine, but am still not
    exactly certain what caused the problem.  I am very disappointed that
    the repair facility does not have a ring.  This engine has been around
    a long time.  There is no excuse for parts being out of supply.  If
    this were the middle of the season and I needed the motor for a
    competition, I would be even more upset.  The early breakdown, lack of
    parts support, and failure to cover the repair under warranty are not
    what I was expecting from O.S.  The repair charge does seem very
    reasonable, however.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Jim 

    So are you going to write the letter..................
    
    You might be rather amazed at the results you get. What have you got
    to loose.

    Just talked to Hobby Services, the ring for the O.S. 1.08 is not
    expected to be in stock till the end of the month.  They received the
    engine 11/1/94 so we are looking at a turnaround time of over a month.
    
    I must say that I hope this is really an anomaly because this is a long
    time to be without a motor.  Serious pattern or other competitors
    probably could not live with this.
    
    It's hard for me to believe that a ring for an O.S. engine is so hard
    to come by.  This certainly is a common part.  I really wish some
    American company(Fox, K&B, etc.) would produce a product that could
    effectively compete with the Japanese.  

    re: -2
    
    Steve,
    
         I would write the letter if I was convinced that I did not do
    something wrong.  A lot of people are telling me that keeping your
    airplanes in the basement is a no-no.  Others are saying that this
    should not have caused the problem.  This after-run oil thing is a 
    "black science" at best with every flyer having their own method
    and additive.  Having no other engines to compare this experience I 
    am not sure what to say.  
    
    I may write it anyway, I will just need to carefully compose it.
    
    Maybe the Webra 1.20 was the way to go... Oh well
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Jim 
    
    

Jim,

Don't be dismayed by the service you're getting from TOWER on an engine they
probably aren't the importers of. You probably would have had better results
from the manufacturer's rep here in the states, especially for a warranty
repair. Keep in mind that Tower is a distributer (albiet a big one) with a
service department (that's trying to keep inventory and overhead low)

hi jim,

what you have described really sounds strange to me.
i am definitively convinced that you did not do anything wrong,
so go and write the letter. i can quote from my mothers experience here:

whenever she is displeased with a product, or gets something that is bad
(chocolate for example) she sends it in and normally gets back a nice
little packet with a sortiment of the manufacturer.
the same applies when one of her kitchen tools breaks. she sends it in and
in most cases gets free replacement. note that some of these tools are 15+
years in use by her...
half a year ago both transformers of my stereo amps failed at the same time.
now this is nothing you could explain to somebody with a fair electronic
background. if you fried them, this would have been easy to see. but they 
were in perfect shape, only had a short circuit. so i called the manufacturer
and spoke to the chief electronc designer. he admitted right from the start,
that the first series had weak transformers with a _very_ thin insulation,
and that this could happen from time to time.
they reworked the whole thing readjusting it etc. at the spare part price of
one single transformer including shipping. 

otoh, if i were manufacturer and i would receive an engine that is heavily
corrodated, i would as well refuse to repair it under warranty. corrosion
from their point of view is a result of not caring, which in your special
does not hold true. even though methanol attracts water, you surely got new
fuel when you got the engine, so this can't contribute to the rust either.

but, if there is the slight chance that it is really the humidity in your
basement (what i really do not believe, especially because you used after
run oil) then, and only then, the webra engine would have had the same
problems, because water/rust affects steel the same way, beeing it of
german, u.s. or japanese production.... 

i suspect that something was wrong with the engine from the start.
so go, write all details down and see what happens. i think mentioning the
computer network will even boost their responsiveness.

good luck!
joe t.

    re: -2
    
    Hobby Services(Tower) is the national serving facility for O.S.
    engines.
     
    The written warrany with the engine required it to be sent there for
    both warranty and non-warranty work.

Well, I didn't know that (never opened the little packet of paper with my OS
engines). In that case, they have no excuse for being backordered for a month on
the parts. 


<the following is a dissenting opinion on letter writing>

I'll admit, I'm not a big fan of letter writing and implied threats of "letting
the word out". If the manufacturer is serious about maintaining the reputation
they want in the field, I don't feel this should prioritize your specific case.
I also feel that it's detrimental to the longterm since soon it REQUIRES this
type of action from anyone who wants the service. I view this type of action in
the same way as the "sue them you'll probably get a settlement" in the liability
world (just my opinion).

From a personal standpoint, I try my best to serve my customers and make right
things that are found unacceptable. I have also refused repeat business from
people that are "hard to please".

BTW: With this posting, haven't you already let the word out?

    re: -1
    
    Like, Jim R., I also am not a big fan of letter writing.  My posting
    this problem in this notes file is more just babbling about my R/C life
    than attempting to tarnish O.S. engines and service.
    
    I have no intention of flaming O.S. like the guy on the internet did
    with a bad J.R. radio experience.
    
    It is absurd to think that my individual experience no matter how
    posted could sway the high opinion generally held about O.S. engines.
    
    I tend to think my situation is an anomaly, and not indicative of most
    O.S. engine purchases.
    
    I think the $50 repair estimate is certainly reasonable.  I am hoping
    the back ordered ring is also an anomaly and not the norm.
    
    At this point I would still recommend the O.S. 1.08 to anyone.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Jim

    
    My experience with engines and afterrun treatment, while not extensive,
    indicates to me that "Mobil 1" is the way to go. I only own 3
    glo-engines at the moment but all three are about 4 years old and all
    of them get a liberal treatment of oil after every run. Neither of the
    engines have missed a beat (aside from minor tweaks) since they've been
    in operation.
    
    Re: Letter writing
    
    While I fall into the catagory of those that tend not to write letters,
    you should be able to send something out like Steve recommends and
    position it so you are not intending to attack O.S. with a threat to
    pass the word. O.S. did not reach it's current lofty position of market
    acceptance by not standing behind it's product. I'm sure something
    could be worked out.
    
    George

>                      <<< Note 1635.17 by NCMAIL::BLUMJ >>>
...
>    I have no intention of flaming O.S. like the guy on the internet did
>    with a bad J.R. radio experience.

For what it's worth - I wouldn't give you a dime for truck load
of OS bearings.

Must my 10 cents worth.

Bye          --+--
Kay R. Fisher  |
---------------O---------------
################################################################################

    My friend, Robin, lent me a brand new O.S. 1.08 to use until mine comes
    back from the repair facility.  We ran one tank of fuel through it at
    about 1/2 throttle with the plane tied to a fence post.
    
    We then proceeded to tow gliders for two days with this setup.  The
    motor hand started very easily, had excellent throttle response, and
    idled reliably at a ridicuosly low throttle setting.  All this right
    out of the box with nothing other than a needle valve adjustment!
    
    These are great, powerful, reliable motors!!!
    

    
     Jim,
       
        Glad to hear you are back to glider towing. It sucks being grounded
    and waiting for parts! Sounds like this engine is helping to vindicate
    O.S. from problems you had with your original engine.
        Hopefully once you get you repaired engine back, it will be the
    last of your O.S. problems.
    
                                                              Dan

    Jim, I have been storing my engines over a four year period in a very
    damp basement with no dehumidifier.  Up to this summer, I alwsys used a
    few squirts of WD40 in the carb followed by running it in with the
    starter.  I have never had any corrosion that caused an engine problem,
    and thats with a total of 7 2-stroke engines having more than 1100
    flights.
     
    Most of the fuel I use has mostly synthetic oil, some having a small
    amount of castor.  I usually run the engine dry just before using the
    WD40.  
    
    When I acquired my first 4-stroke engine this summer, I switched to
    Mobil-1 on the recommendation of many people in this file, especially
    Eric from whom I bought the OS91 Surpass.
    
    I can't believe your engine rusted out that fast.  Makes me think
    something was wrong to begin with.  Good luck with the repaired engine.
    
    Regards,                                             
    Joe
    

    RE:-1
    
    Joe,
    
       Your assessment concurs with just about everyone else who has heard
    the details - the engine was corroded before it was even run.  I am
    lucky to have a replacement to tide me over until it is fixed.  I
    think if the repair is done correctly my problems are behind me.  I
    think they should have covered it under warranty, however.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Jim
    
      

    It WOULD be covered under warranty if you'd send the letter.
    
    But, that's up to you.

    Hi Guys,
    
    I agree that a good, well written letter never hurts, and I too am an
    O.S. fan, but I also have to agree with Kay. O.S. bearings leave at lot
    to be desired!!!
    
    I have read all the coments previous to this one and all seem to be
    good theories. I would just like to add that I too live in a very humid
    area(near Va. Beach, Va.) and I believe the make of fuel you use has
    more to do with these types of problems, generally speaking, than the
    type of after-run oil you may, or may not use. Years ago I swore by Red
    Max fuel, but I had fellow flyers tell me horror stores about the same
    fuel.
    
    Just another modeler's opinion!!

    I received my 1.08 back from Hobby Services last week.  I put it on the
    plane and it ran fine.  They sent the corroded rear bearing and ring
    back with the engine.  The total charge was $49 of which $10 was labor.
    The engine is now bathing in after-run oil.  

    As an additonal followup, I flew my towplane with the repaired 1.08 in
    it for the first time on Sunday.  Break-in constisted of running one
    tank(24 oz) of fuel through it at a rich setting.
    
    The plane started, idled, and performed exceptionally well.  So even
    after a repair, the engine is great.
    
    Highly recommended-everyone at the field is amazed at the power and
    good behavior of this engine.
    
    I wish I could get more info on the O.S. BGX-1, I have heard some bad
    rumblings about this engine.  At this point I am considering the Moki
    1.8 for my next towplane.