Conference vmszoo::rc

    You can build one for a fraction of the cost.  Call a junk yard and get
    a FORD long shaft starter motor then either make your own drum or there
    is a person who will build drums for you(All the F3b people use them)
    for about $90.00 each.  So if you bought the drum you would be in it
    about $150.00  If you can get someone to help you machine the drum then
    you would come in alot less than that.
    

    I've used both Davey and Rahm winches, and retrievers. Most recently
    the Davey system at the Nats. I've never had any trouble with backlash
    on those systems, but with several of our club homemade systems
    I can backlash every time I try to get a max. performance launch.
    The Davey uses a belt drive from the motor to the drum. It will
    slip under sufficient load, but still more than enough power to
    rip wings off. Retrievers work well when set up properly. The terrain
    that the launch and retrieve line passes over, will have a lot to
    do with breakage and snags. Winches require a more level terrain
    than high starts. If you're moving guys directly from power to gliders
    and are starting them off directly with winch launches, expect a
    fair amount of trauma. We have experienced glider pilots in our
    club who refuse to use winches. Look for a fused main buss and an
    emergency off switch on any system you decide on.
    
    Terry
    

	This is just my opinion: I enjoy launching on a winch, but they are
	a lot more pain and effort than a simple high start. The winch is more
	expensive, heavier, requires battery charging, takes longer to set up,
	and makes you walk farther for the parachute (unless you have a 
	retriever, which imposes a whole new set of problems). Line tangles on
	the reel are commonplace if you don't have someone or something to stop
	the backlash.

	The winch that we used at the contest in Connecticut last weekend 
	operated about as smoothly as I've ever seen one, but it required two
	full time operators, and a generator (read: jumper cables to an idling
	van) to keep the battery charged.

	Having a winch available for practice is a good idea if you are going
	to fly in contests, but for general flying sessions I'll take the high
	start everytime. And I wouldn't put a new flyer on a winch until he
	was comfortable on a high start first.

	Dave

    The reasons for wanting a winch are as follows: the field where we fly
    does not offer an unobstructed high start pull in all directions, hence
    when there is a cross wind or occasional cross wind the parachute blows
    into the trees or bushes or whatever.  This creates all kinds of
    trouble and creates very negative impressions of high start flying with
    the power flyers.  It seems that with a winch you could reel in the
    line or use a retriever to prevent the line from going into the weeds.
    Also the variety of ships that show up to be flown vary in size, so at
    least two different size high starts must be laid out which creates
    additional line crossing problems.  The winch may not be a panacea but
    I am hoping it could alleviate some of these problems.
    
    Regards,
    
    Jim

    Soaring Specialties is about to include a winch drum in his (Taylor
    Collins) product line for $40-50.
    I saw one at our club meeting and it is a nice unit. Machined aluminum,
    side plates held on with allen round head bolts. Hub threaded for set
    screws on both sides. 
    
    This makes it more attractive to make your own winch, especially
    since Rahm winches are now up to $440.
    
    Terry

    I've gotten our local winch guru, Ed Hull, to make me a winch.
    He's retired, ex NASA B-57 pilot and a master machinist with a complete
    machine shop in his garage.
    
    He's made three winches for the F3B guys lately, with several
    innovative features to get around the limitations of the FAI
    legal Bosch motors.
    
    I don't care about FAI legality so mine will use the regular Ford
    long shaft motor, and will have a steel frame, rather than the
    aluminum of the F3B models.(saves weight when you're carting them
    around the world to contests.
    
    Of course mine will be considerable more powerful (Ed calls the F3B
    models "wimpy") and will use 2.75" diameter drum rather than the 2"
    drum of the F3B, they can't pull much more than that in headwind
    launches of >10mph. This will give me greater line speed and better
    downwind launch capability. Ed devised a variable width drum for the
    F3B models to allow the line to spool up on the drum more rapidly
    in down wind launches, very ingenious but more expensive, and
    unnecessary on mine.
    
    He removes the motor end plates and machines up his own aluminum
    plates with pressed-in cartridge ball bearings. Much longer lasting
    than the stock bronze bushings.
    
    The outboard side of the drum rides in another cartridge bearing which
    is held in a custom designed U-shaped alum. plate. This isn't
    absolutely necessary on the Ford motors but is on the Bosch, which can
    bend their shafts without it on a max effort launch.
    
    The customer supplies the motor, any custom specs, and the battery.
    Ed supplies everything else.
    
    He has a turnbuckle/rod hold down arrangement which permits aligning
    the drum with the line and turnaround pulley without having to shift
    the winch on the ground.
    
    It should be done by next month, in time to use with the Omega  and/or
    to tear the wings off a few unsuspecting G.L.s that wander by.
    
    Terry

    As a kid I probably did a lot of things that won't appear in these
    notes. ;^)
    
    The entertainment value of flies was never too great, but gluing
    june bugs to the front of little scratch built 3-4" balsa gliders
    was a blast. If you got everything just right, their L/D was improved
    dramatically.
    
    Alternatively, you could tie a thread to their middle leg and fly
    them U-control.
    
    Terry

    >The entertainment value of flies was never too great, but gluing
    >june bugs to the front of little scratch built 3-4" balsa gliders
    >was a blast. If you got everything just right, their L/D was improved
    >dramatically.
    >
    >Alternatively, you could tie a thread to their middle leg and fly
    >them U-control.
    
    This reminds of a story I heard from a guy who used to work at
    Raytheon. When the engineers got bored, they would find a big, healthy
    fly and catch it in a cup, stun it with cigar smoke (that would stun me
    too), and glue a thread to the body of the fly. Then they'd attach a
    piece of toilet paper to the thread with something appropriate written
    on the toilet paper, like "Eat at Louigi's!". You would see these
    flying advertisements roaming around the office area. 
    
    Remember, these are the people entrusted with our nation's defense...
    

    I used to tie a string to dragon-flies, and fly'em like a kite. A
    sparrow that I found injured, and nursed back to health, was better 
    though.
    
    ... jeeze, and you thought us vegetarians didn't know how to have fun!
    
    ajai

    I picked up my new winch from Ed on friday.
    He did his usual excellent job, and I can't wait to try it out as
    soon as the braided nylon line arrives from Timbs Eng.
    
    The turnaround is quite a work of art. He used an aircraft control
    cable pulley, ~2" dia., ball bearing shaft, and sandwiched between
    two machined side plates which fair into a circular eyelet that allows
    the chute to pass through undamaged in case you rub it down too far
    under power. The stake and the pulley assy. are joined by a ~3"
    piece of steel cable to allow flexibility if the line is pulled
    off the center line. The cable is retained by recessed set screws at
    each end in case you ever need to replace it. The whole assembly was
    then glass bead blasted to give it a satin finish. More later.
    
    Terry

    Ed supplied a cost breakdown. Pretty good price for a custom built
    winch, but he says he's rethinking his pricing and later jobs will be
    more expensive.
    
    1  Ball Bearing            R16LL/2A                       $7.50                                   
    1  Pulley                  MS20220-2                      16.75                                     
    1  BMX sprocket            3144611                        11.62
    1  Relay                   STI-SS-581X                    13.64
    1  Welding cable           AOS 1/0                         2.97
    4  Cable ends              Tweco T-62                      4.23
    1  Turnbuckle              3/8 X 10                        2.49
    1  Eye bolt                5/16 X 10                       1.09
     
       Hardware                Springs, paint, screws          6.37
       Material                Aluminum, steel, brass         22.75
                                                              -----
                               Parts total                   $89.41
                               Labor                         150.00
                                                             ------
                               Total                         $239.41
                         
       Battery and starter motor, supplied by me.            $100
                                                             
       170# braided nylon line, 1500 ft.                       12.95
                                                             --------
                                Grand total                  $352.36
    
    That's ~$100 cheaper than a Rahm winch, and I'll have to buy only
    one per lifetime.
    
    Terry                                                    
    

Well, gliders have become my primary interest. I figure it's time to bite the 
bullet and get a winch. I'd rather build one than buy one so I need to find 
some plans. Does anyone have a set of plans that they could make me a copy/loan 
me?

Had a long conversation with Steve Savoie from the Downeast Maine club last
night. They built their own winches and things went well. I got some great 
ideas and then called a machinist friend. We're going to build a winch. 
We'll be designing it this sunday at the Ware fun-fly/picnic. He asked that 
I bring some pictures to show him. The only one I found was the wimpy one 
in the Hobby Lobby catalog which has no brake and no outer bearing. Does 
anyone local have a picture of the RAM winch or any other winches which have 
the outer drum support and possibly a braking mechanism (we're talking about 
going with the fan belt that gets loosened by line tension type)

    Jim,
    	The winch that Ray has uses a dynamic brake with a power resistor
    shorted across the motor when the motor is off.  I don't know if this
    is adequate, but it is easy to do.
    
    Charlie
    

    Jim,
    
    ask Bernd (KBOMFG::)Knoerle. He built a winch with US parts last year
    in CXO, and that one is very good. He should have some documentation,
    too. As far as I can recall, it was pretty easy (compared to many
    commercially available winches).
    
    Best regards,
                  Hartmut

        Re:                    <<< Note 424.17 by LEDS::KLINGENBERG >>>

                Chris Schuch  will  be building 5 winches for a number of
        the CRRC members.   The design is real simple with a base made of
        welded angle irons with a plate for the  battery.    The standard
        design will have wheels and the foot switch mounted on the handle
        that  is  used to pull the winch along.  Mine  will  not  have  a
        handle  or wheels and will have the foot switch on a  plate.    I
        plan to use a cart I already own to pull it along.
        
        Anker

    Brain dead...
    
    Sorry, it just came to my mind that Bernd is on vacation for a couple
    of (4) weeks. He has to make sure that the builders and his wife don't
    turn the hangar/workshop he's building into a normal house.
    
    I wonder whether someone else from the Pikes Peak Soaring Society is
    still in the file. They had originally developed the design, if my 
    brain serves me right in this regard.
    
    Best regards,
                  Hartmut

Yes, I remembered that Bernd was on a working vacation at home but I sent off 
mail to him. I've also sent mail to Mark Antry who is now in the military but 
has network access. I've email'd Anker about the CRRC winch build and I'll 
continue talking to the machinist friend. The major aspects of the winch are 
pretty simple. The Ford starter motor and a 2" diameter drum. The rest is just 
window dressing 8^)

Well, I ran into one snag in the quest for a winch. The junk yard looked at me 
like I'd dropped off the moon when I assked them for a Ford longshaft starter 
motor. They don't understand anything unless you have a make and model of the 
car it fits. Turns out that the starter is pre-1960. Availability might be a
problem. Then there's the issue of a core charge... Anyway, while I'm looking 
for a Ford starter I also thought about the Bosch motor used by the F3B guys.
Does anyone (still in the file) happen to know the particulars about that 
starter (since it might be a more current and easier available model)?

    Jim,
    	You might check a regular auto parts place for a Rebuilt starter. 
    I'd go for one in good condition for a winch.  Those long shaft ones
    haven't been used on new cars for a long time and you are unlikely to
    find one easily in a junk yard.  What unit is on Ray's winch?  
    
    Charlie
    

Well, I picked up two motors this morning on my way to work. You're right, 
Charlie, they haven't been used in a while. They were used on the old Model 
Ts and they continued to use them up through 1962 on the 292 engine. Then 
they went to the bullet nosed design that supported both ends of the shaft.
These both tested out real good and the machinist is going to replace the 
shaft bushings with bearings anyway.

    Jim,
    
    Where did you find the motors?  If they're used, I'd recommend a good
    cleaning and brush, armature inspection.  You want these motors to be
    in tip top shape for a winch.
    
    Charlie
    

Why, they was out in the pasture under a pile o'manure but they had stayed 
warm 8^)


I got a lead on them from a friend that restores and shows old cars. It's a 
little hole in the wall place in a guy's basemens in Ashburnham. The motors 
will be inspected and fitted with bearings by the machinist.

The rebuild place in Worcester I used to use has gone out of business or I 
would have gone there. I'll be using two selenoids in series in case one fails 
in the closed position.

    Jim,
    	How much did you end up parting with to get the motors?
    
    Charlie
    
    P. S. I made an engine starter out of one of these back in 1965. 
    (before Sulivan starters)  I used a piece of radiator hose clamped on
    the long shaft.  You shoved the spinner into the end of the hose while
    the motor was spinning to start.
    

$15ea so I bought both he had. We tested them out in the yard by standing on 
them to keep the torque from sending them flying and connecting them up with 
jumper cables.