Conference unifix::sailing

    Line Seven is the most waterproof and rugged.  I've gone through
    three sets of gear while my wife is still using her Line Seven suit
    which is 7 - 8 years old.  However, it is heavy and fairly pricey
    at about $100 each for the jacket and pants.
    
    Henri Lloyd gear is better tailored but I've found the material
    susceptable to abrasion.  My wife tried one of their dinghy suits
    but the knees wore out after only one season.  It's repairable but
    it shouldn't happen on something that expensive.  Mr Lloyd must
    be very wealthy if the price of his clothing is any indication.
    
    My first foul weather suit was made by Atlantis which I bought based
    on their ads which used to appear in every sailing mag.  It leaked
    from the start and no amount of seam sealant and duct tape could
    rectify this.  
    
    Suit #2 was made by Sea Gear.  Very waterproof but so ill tailored
    that most of the critical seams had burst apart after a season of
    dinghy racing.
    
    Suit #3 is the cheap stuff from Bliss Marine.  I use the bib pants
    and short jacket.  It's lightweight and the short jacket allows
    enough freedom of movement for aggressive dinghy racing tactics.
    So far so good.  But part of the reason it's lasted longer is a
    reduction in my dinghy sailing time.  It's good for about one more
    season.  
    
    Wearing a pair of shorts over the pants saves a lot of wear and
    tear on the seat and keeps the owner from sliding around on wet
    decks.   How long anything lasts depends on the type and frequency
    of use.  Casual big boat cruising - almost indefinitely ( assuming
    it doesn't leak from the start).  Dingy racing - a suit a year.
    
    - gene

The three most important characteristics of foul weather gear are:

  1. waterproof
  2. waterproof
  3. waterproof

Also important are abrasion resistance and warmth. We've been using the 
same suits of Line 7 since 1982 (the heavy, offshore ones). They're
still waterproof and don't leak at the seams or zippers. Good, rugged
stuff (tested by too frequent crawling around the deck), and I'll buy
another suit when my current one dies. 

Line 7 is PVC coated on the outside of the fabric, which makes the outer 
surface smooth. Our first foul weather gear was coated on the inside. 
Prettier, but water (spray, rain, and the odd wave) would fill the weave
of the cloth on the outside. Wind would then evaporate this water,
making the wearer very cold. Ugh. Fortunately, these suits soon began to
leak, making it easy to justify buying Line 7. Practical Sailor thought
highly of Line 7. 

You'll sweat inside waterproof foul weather gear. It's better than 
getting wet the other way. Just wear heavy weight polypropylene long 
underwear and a bit of dampness from sweating isn't a problem.

    Amen to .1 on Atlantis.  About the only part that didn't leak were
    the pockets, and they were supposed to.
    
    I also bought a suit from Bliss.  It kept dry, but mildewed from
    the first season.

    Much as I hate to admit it, Line 7 is the ONLY stuff to ever keep
    me dry.  Not real stylish, but absolutely dry.  Unfortunately the
    stuff doesn't float so I lost my set in the sinking.  Tempted to
    buy a dry top (latex neck and all that).  I hate to be wet!
    
    Dave

    Henri Lloyd produce a wide range of foul weather gear. However it
    appears that over here (UK) we are used to paying more than the
    folks in our former colonies :-)
    
    Average price for the mid to upper range Henri LLoyd gear 100 pounds
    for the jacket about 80-90 for the trousers.....I hasten to add
    that all the right places are well re-enforced. Maybe in a few years
    when I need more gear for the mate or myself and assuming the pound
    dollar ratio is OK I should try and organise something via this
    notes file.......
    
    Pete
    	
    

	I don't know if you can buy it, but if I'd find foul wheather gear
	made out of a material called GoreTEX, I'd buy them.

	Here in Finland you end up wearing fwg a lot due to spray and drizzle.
	The PVC gear that I have is allright protection wise but I'm not happy
	about the condensation. 

	Last season I used a GoreTEX windbreaker (which is water-proof etc)
	and found it wonderful. No water in but the condense water goes out!
	Dry and warm as could be! I'll get a pair of similar pants for next
	summer (if I can find them discounted, Gore is pretty expensive). No,
	I think I'll buy them any way!!

	Because the jacket was not really made for foul weather, I do not have
	any experience with "cats and dogs", but that is a design issue, or
	so I assume. Anything that was thrown at me was kept out unless it
	crept in thru the collar.

	I know of some mc rain-gear that is made out of Gore - this could be
	nice for sailing too? At least it shows how good the fabric is, even
	going at 200 km/h in the rain, it's still water resistant!! 

	Regs, H�kan

re -.1:

According to Practical Sailor and others, GoreTex isn't waterproof 
enough for serious foulweather gear. None of the best foulweather suits 
use it these days. A few years ago it was widely advertised, and it is 
apparently good for less demanding applications (eg, backpacking and 
bicycling). 

The idea of GoreTex is that water vapor passes through the fabric, 
liquid water won't. But, if you're warmly enough dressed for cold 
weather sailing and if a brisk breeze is blowing, your foulweather gear 
will be cold enough that any water vapor from sweat or other sources 
will condense into your clothing before it has a chance to pass through 
the GoreTex fabric. 

I stand by my recommendation of Line 7 (US discount price for the jacket 
is $149 and bib pants $129 -- well worth it). 

    
    Gore-tex is not suitable for real rain or taking waves over the
    bow.  For summer time day sails it's not that bad.  The wearer doesn't
    get as hot as with real foul weather gear.  But if I'm going to
    be out all day or longer where there will be no opportunity to dry
    off and warm up, I'd go with the completely waterproof stuff.
    
    My wife and I both have Gore-tex suits which we've tried on the
    Etchells once.  That was enough.  We had our street clothes on
    underneath.  Shoulda worn bathing suits instead for all the water
    that came in.
    
    Gore-tex is useful for vigorous activity in a damp but not wet
    environment.  For example, winter mountaineering or cross country
    skiing when it's snowing.  I guess all the sweat that's generated
    produces a higher osmotic pressure than the dampness on the outside
    and the vapor diffuses outward.  
    
    The prices quoted for Henri Lloyd gear sound about right.  It's
    very pricey stuff, at least in this former colony.
    
    - gene

    Re: .5
    
    Pete, stick to your side of the pond. ;^)
    
    Only joking. What I really mean is: while US prices for Henri Lloyd
    have become *far* more competetive than they were a few years ago
    (ref note 70.6) I think that you can still buy cheaper in the UK.
    
    In 1984 there were two factors which made it attractive for us to
    order from the UK. For one thing, the pound was worth about $1.14.
    But Henri Lloyds pricing policy with the US distributor created
    the most disparity. The wholesale prices in the US were higher than
    the retail prices in the UK. Something to do with the 'rich American'
    syndrome I guess.
    
    Now Henri Lloyd has revised their US pricing policy and the pound
    is in the $1.80's but I can still buy from the UK mailorder houses,
    pay shipping and duty and beat the US discount catalogs. Not by
    much it's true, and now I need to be much more careful to comparison
    shop the UK suppliers.
    
    At the Annapolis show this fall the fellow in the Thomas Fowlkes
    booth felt that they could still compete for US business on items
    such as foul weather gear, Avon liferafts, and the smaller Avon
    dinghies, but the margin was so close that shipping charges would
    tip the scale the other way on heavier items. Items like the Avon
    310RIB, Lewmar winches, CQR's are cheaper for us to buy here now.
    It may sound crazy but a few years ago I bought a couple of CQR's
    (one for me and one for Alan), and had them shipped AIRFREIGHT here
    for, if I remember right, about 2/3 the best US price.
    
    One thing I haven't considered which may influence you more than
    I realize is how the VAT affects you. Is it better for you to
    pay VAT or import duty from the US?
  
    John_R

    Another Line 7 vote -- bullet-proof.  My set
    has been with me since '81.  It's a bit "smudged,"
    but otherwise great.  Only failure was one of the clips
    on the pants -- Line 7 fixed them for free, even though
    they'd been in service for 6 years!!

    Noboby yet has mentioned where one can acquire the Line-7. Hows
    about letting me in on it. Any discount mail order houses?
    
    Thanks
    /MArk
    

West Marine, 800-538-0775, carries Line 7. West's prices aren't always 
the lowest, but their service is unsurpassed. 

    
    
            Thanks Alan, my catalog is on its way.
    
    /MArk
    

There's a previous note back there somewhere which discussed FWG in 
similar detail; though I can't find the note, I won't repeat the points 
here in any case.

RE: .1, 
Atlantis gear is outperformed by Swiss cheese. The big advantage 
of the latter is that you can eat it instead of just get mad at it.

I've had great luck with both Henri-Lloyd (Voyager bib pants & full
jacket) and Line 7 (smock).  The latter is absolutely waterproof, as 
everyone has pointed out.  Don't get white, even though it'll help you 
blend into the Newport or Annapolis scene on a rainy day:  If you go 
overboard, you'll look like just another patch of foam.  They make all the
items in yellow as well, though they advertise the white because it's
almost a trademark for them now. 

The former is much more comfortable, mostly because it's so flexible, and
has withstood a fairly strong storm test a couple times now.  It *is*
expensive; the US distributor controls the pricing very tightly; the only
discounts supposedly available are West Marine Products (5% less) and
certain boat show specials by "participating" dealers (10%).  A local
store here used to discount them about 15%; they lost the franchise to
another local store, which doesn't discount.  Frustrating isn't it? 

One lovely advantage of H-L as far as I'm concerned, is that they make 
extra-tall sizes, and I mean *extra* tall!  They charge a 10% premium, but 
you get the same 2-year guarantee and all.

J.

    Another good item made by H-L is their FWG boots. They were the
    only ones I found which fit snugly but comfortably and that would
    work around my calves correctly. Definitely check them out.

    
    Atlantis does make one worthwhile peice of clothing - their sou'wester
    hat.  This is the one with the large brim.  I find it doesn't impede
    vision and hearing the way a hood does.  It does keep the rain off
    of glasses to a degree.  By bending the front brim it is possible
    to look at the sails without putting a crick in your neck.  However,
    it is, admittedly, one of the ulgiest peices of clothing imagineable.
    
    - gene

    My vote goes for the Musto boots.  Very flexible and absolutely
    sticky on deck.  Very comfortable.
    
    Black Diamond sou'wester is by far the ugliest and my favorite if
    you can find it.
    
    Atlantis claims it has changed, but I'll believe it when it has
    about five years of good rap.  That stuff is awful!
    
    Anyone have any extended experience with dry tops?  Are they unbearably
    hot?  I like the concept.
    
    Dave

    
    My wife has a Heri Lloyd dry suit.  How hot it is depends on how
    cold it is outside.  For frostbiting, it's great - especially if
    you fall in.  But during an end of season regatta two years ago
    when the temperature reached the mid fifties we had to retire. 
    It got so uncomfortable in the suit my wife got nauseated.  In warm
    weather it's a good idea for the wearer to position himself downwind
    of his fellow crewmembers when removing the suit.  It gets real
    ripe real fast inside.  I needn't warn you about the dangers of
    ingesting large amounts of carbohydrates before putting the suit
    on.  Less of a problem if it's just the dry top.
    
    - gene

RE: .17, 

>>>    Black Diamond sou'wester is by far the ugliest and my favorite if
>>>    you can find it.
    
True.  (It's black.)  It also has a molded in 1/2" lip along the front 
brim, so when you look down water isn't dripping in front of your nose.  
They are also lined with flannel or felt, with earflaps.  It's true -- the 
fishermen wear 'em , especially the Novis (BD comes from N.S.)

A couple years ago, some young yuppie entrepreneur bought the US
distribution (maybe the company), and they're becoming an increasingly
popular and rather campy item. 

>>>    Atlantis claims it has changed, but I'll believe it when it has
>>>    about five years of good rap.  That stuff is awful!
    
Didn't Timberland finally by this company?  They were suffering for 
several years, having passed through about four or five owners in ten 
years.

>>>  dry tops

A truly committed windsurfing friend suggests you get one with a large 
back zipper (typically a "U"), as you won't be *in* the water (one hopes) 
and they are much easier to get in and out of, especially if you have a 
friend to do the zipping.  The alternatives are much harder to get in, and 
ultimately dryer, due to fewer and shorter zippers.

J.

    
    	
    	Could someone give me (living in Sandinavia) the name
    	and address of the producer of Line 7?
    		I havent seen the 'line' here in Sweden.
    				Ove axelsson
    
    				STKHLM{STKTSC,STK01,STKSWS}::AXELSSON 

    I bought West Marine Explorer bib pants and jacket last year at
    this time.   The gear is neoprene inside, 200 denier oxford nylon
    outside with large Cordura knee and seat patches.  Lots of stay
    dry and comfortable features (neoprene wet-suit style inner cuffs,
    stitched then taped seams, very high collar, fleece lined pockets 
    and collar). 

    It turns out these are made by High Seas (I know because when I
    ordered mine, the ywere out of mu size jacket due to a manufacturer
    foul-up and a High Seas jacket was substituted - identical except
    for the logo).
    
    I am delighted with them. The only moisture to get inside this year
    was my own perspiration.
    
    Walt 

    RE: .14 
    
    John...You mentioned H-L has tall sizes.  I am 6'5" and have had
    trouble finding a good fit with Line 7 from West Marine (returned
    the shipment).  Where can I find out about special ordering?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Carl
    

    I've been real happy with my foul weather gear made by Achilles.
    It also fits tall folks (I'm just shy of 6'2 and I've put on Achilles
    gear to long for me). It's extremely durable, double lined in all
    the right places, BIG nylon zippers with velcro coverings over them.
    If you can't find Line 7, I'd suggest you give them a try.  RC

    For someone who wants Henri Lloyd gear I found out the following
    Sat at the ISP store in Annapolis:
    
    For '89 H-L is changing their line, new features and new colors. As a
    result, ISP (and one other US retailer - don't remember who, not a well
    known name though) has purchased the entire remaining US inventory from
    MRC (the H-L importer). Sizes and colors are *very* random so you have
    to get lucky but the savings are considerable. One example: the Ocean
    Racer II Jacket w/floater vest (mens large, red) List $349 Now $200.
    
    Sorry, I'm traveling today and forgot to bring the ISP phone number
    with me. Maybe someone else can help, or call information. ISP
    has two locations, Annapolis MD (mgr Paul Murphy, ask for him, I told
    him a noter or two might call) and Oyster Bay NY (this location
    has an 800 number, but again I can't help).

    John_R

RE: .22, 


See note 1094.1 for Three Lanterns Ship Supply, where I bought by 
Henri-Lloyd.  Mike Parisi (the owner) actually had Large X-Tall pants and 
Med X_Tall jacket in stock when I was looking.  Given the info in another 
reply here, maybe if they got it you can get it, but if they don't you 
can't.

J.

    Another vote for Achilles. My wife and I have used ours for two
    seasons now in mild to moderate conditions here on Puget Sound as
    well as San Francisco Bay. I find the Achilles product to be
    intelligently designed and priced right.
    
    Howard

    How 'bout the NorLantic gear sold at Bliss Marine (E & B Discount
    Marine). This stuff any good?
    
    /Mark

Does anyone have any recommendations for one-piece dinghy suits? I'm
considering buying a Henri-Lloyd Foremost suit for use with my DN. I would use
it on wet days like yesterday (Jibing in one inch of water at 30+ mph throws a
lot of spray) and in the Spring instead of my insulated coveralls. Any
specific experience with this suit? 

thx, Bob

    Any body seen the new Line 7 gear?  I saw it was recommended by
    Phil Stegall in January SAIL mag.  Looks different and supposedly
    is an improvement.
    
    Dave

    Ok.... gotta ask (another dumb question)
    
    When wearing FW boots, do you wear shoes or not ? I am going to
    buy some this year and want to be sure to get the right size.
    
    JC
    

    Not with any I've ever seen....
    You may decide you want to wear thick sock or not. On some boots
    that may change you up 1/2 size.

>>>    You may decide you want to wear thick sock or not. 

Wear wool, or thick polypropylene, and your feet will stay warmer.  Cotton 
or other synthetic will make your feet colder.

Also, consider wearing "banker's socks" -- calf-height, 100% stretchy nylon
-- over the wool ones.  Wool socks wear fast against the inside of a
seaboot as you move around; this way you provide a relatively slippery yet
highly abrasion-resistant surface inside the boot, which will save many a
pair of good woolies over the course of a long season.  It can also make 
getting your seaboots on in the first place a bit easier, too, and keeps 
your socks from slipping down to your toes.

J.

    re:.32
    
    Thanks for the sock advice, I will bring a pair of wool and nylon
    socks when I buy boots.
    
    Any recommendations on boots from anyone ?
    
    JC
    

    Musto "M2" polyurethane boot has to be the best boot I ever owned.
    They claim it will never crack or dry out.  Lined with knitted nylon
    to help slip on and off.  Great deck "feel" unlike a LOT of other
    boots.  Bad news is the price.  At ISP they're $99, but you may
    be able to get them cheaper.
    
    Of course I have to replace mine, and I'm going back to that brand.
    Well worth the money.
    
    Dave

RE:.34

>    boots.  Bad news is the price.  At ISP they're $99, but you may
>    be able to get them cheaper.
    

    Musto M2's are $75.95 from Defender. (Plus $2.31 shipping to MA)

    re: .34 and .35
    
    $76-99 ??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come on ! I don't even pay that much
    for my street shoes. These boots must be REALLY good.
    
    What's my next choice ? I don't think my first mate will let me
    spend that kind of money (assuming I TELL her.....).
    
    JC
    

Romika boots (available from West Marine among others) aren't bad and
are only $30. They are bright yellow. Julie calls them her Christopher 
Robin boots (you remember, Winnie the Pooh). 

    I use "plough man" rubber work boots.  These are what you see clam
    diggers, gardeners, and fishermen using.  They're generic imported
    boots with a heel and steel shank.  Much more rugged than the sailing
    boots and they come right up to the knee.  
    
    I originally brought them for frostbiting.  Dragging the dinghy
    up the launch ramp quickly wore out the sailing type boots.  The
    current pair are four years old.  They're also good to wear when
    shoveling snow or washing the car.  Cost is about $17 at surplus
    stores and work clothing outlets.  
    
    - gene

For cheap prices on working seaboots, try Nelson's of Gloucester (on Main 
Street, near the former theater.)  They outfit the fishermen in town, at 
prices even a poor catch can afford.  They have everything from genuine 
firemen's boots (*rugged!*) through to semi-yachty stuff.  It's all packed 
tightly into a rather small downtown space, but worth the adventure if 
you're exploring practical alternatives to the big-name expensive brands.

J.

(They also carry Black Diamond.)

    
    I happened to read through this note, after I already purchased
    my foul weather gear, and noticed that nobody even mentioned Patagonia?
    
    Oh well.  For what it's worth I think it's great even though I've
    only had it for one year and it hasn't had the test of time.
    
    Jacket and Bib lists for $350 but you should be able to get a discount
    someplaces.

    I recently ordered 8 sets of North Atlantic Ocean Pro gear from
    Goldberg Marine at $169 the set. There is no tax on these in Penna.
    
    Does anyone know if this stuff is any good? I haven't seen the Line
    7 but I have called for a catalog. I don't think that Defenders
    carries the stuff.
    
    Regards,
    	Mike

[moved by moderator]

Foul weather gear previously discussed extensively in this note. Any new 
comments?

================================================================================
           <<< MSCSSE::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SAILING.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< Sailing >-
================================================================================
Note 1309.0                     Foul Weather Gear                     No replies
2EASY::JONES                                         11 lines  15-AUG-1989 12:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    After having been thoroughly soaked this weekend, I've decided its
    about time to invest in a decent set of foul weather gear.  As there
    do not seem to be other notes on the subject, I would like to solicit
    opinions as to what works and what doesn't. 
    
    It will be mostly for recreational sailing, but it would be nice
    to find something that will last for a few seasons.
    
    						Ron
    
    					

    I phoned West Marine, I was told they no longer stock Line Seven.
    The reason given was that the 'pvc was not popular, and after deciding
    to discontinue that model, the remaining Line Seven types duplicated
    other items in the catalog.'
    
    Are there any stores in the Boston area (and suburbs) that stock
    Line Seven?
    
    Mike                                               

    Lynn Marine in Marblehead carries Line Seven.
    
    Tel # 617-631-1305.
    
    - gene

Gidday,

This seems like the best topic to ask my question (but it is aimed at any UK 
noters).  One of the guys I sail with has some Henri Lloyd gear that is
starting to wear out.  As he is going back to England for a holiday, he is 
keen to know what the current prices are.  He is looking especially at the
ocean going gear, with built in harness.  Any info will be appreciated, and 
can be mailed to THERDC::VISSER.

As a side note, I just want to thank all the sailing noters in this conference 
who have added a different dimension to my perception of sailing.  I only began 
to sail late last year, and have teeth marks from the bug all over me :-).  I 
am lucky that here in Sydney, we can sail all year round, although it does get 
cooler in winter, but not enough to deter keen yachties.

..klaas..

Gee guys,

Did I ask the wrong question, or do I use the wrong after shave :-)

I wasn't expecting to get flooded with mail and/or replies, but at least one 
would do fine.

I just found out there is a sailing in Europe conference, so I ask in there as
well.

Happy sailing,

	..klaas.. (who crews in his first offshore race this Christmas)

    The 1990 BOAT/US catalog offers Line-7 foul weather gear:
    
    Jacket $100
    Bib overalls $80 
    It shows them as white, and no mention of other colors.
    
    They also offer High Seas gear:
    
    Jacket $170
    Bibs   $130
    The picture shows them as red.
    
    I've seen all the endorsements in this topic for Line-7, with only 1 
    reference to High Seas. Just curious: is the High Seas gear really
    worth $120 more than the Line-7 gear, (i.e. is it a case of getting
    what you pay for), or is this just marketing/paying for the label.
    I'm not too keen on the white color of the Line-7 stuff, yet what I'm 
    really looking for the "best".  
    
    Also, the catalog has High Seas boots. Does anyone have any experience
    with these?

    Be careful!  There are two versions of LINE 7 gear.  The cheaper does
    not have any nylon lining making it clammy and hard to put on.  I
    believe it is also lighter weight material.  High Seas is not a high
    end product that I know of.  I mean it's not generally mentioned in the
    same category as Henri Lloyd, Musto, LINE 7, Mustang, etc.
    
    The white is okay.  I've gone to the more expensive Henri Lloyd and
    still haven't had the chance to test if it is as good as my LINE 7 gear
    was.
    
    Dave

RE: Line 7 gear,

White is the color they became famous for.  But they make and sell a 
bright yellow in the same material and styles, which is far more
appropriate to have on your bod if you've had the misfortune to slip
overboard in any kind of whitecaps.  I've got one of their super "racing
smocks", knee-length, tough, absolutely waterproof and very yellow. 

You may have to look for it, since the marketeers know people associate 
white with Line 7, and thus look for it without demanding the yellow.  For 
some, it's more important to let others know at a far distance that they 
have Line 7 (the only white FWG sold, it seems) than it is to create a
slightly better chance of being found at night in the open sea. 

;-),  J.

    Where did you get the racing smock?  How much are they?  I've seen them
    and like the concept.
    
    Dave

>>>    Where did you get the racing smock?  How much are they?  I've seen them
>>>    and like the concept.
    
Bearskin Neck Sweaters, Rockport MA, about 5-6 years ago.  The store's 
since changed hands, but they may still carry them.  Any dealer should be 
able to get them.  Alternatively, the east coast distributor is on Long 
Island, I think; often print ads list the distributor's name and address, 
and a phone call will give you a local vendor's address and number.

I forget the price.  Not cheap, perhaps around $80-90 back then.

They are long enough to cover your *ss completely, and with the neck 
weather gusset zipped up and cuffs shut, you are just about weatherproof 
from head to knees.  They are big enough that when sitting down the smock
can be pulled over your knees and boottops.  In warm weather with hard
rain it's cool and airy when worn over just a t-shirt and bathing suit. 
It's like a hooded maternity dress men can wear without explanation. 

;-), J.

    While shopping for a new pair of FWG pants at Boats-US last night I
    noticed a slight difference in the logos on the Line 7 stuff.
    
    There's "LINE 7" and "LINE SEVEN".   
    
    The "LINE 7" is made in New Zealand while the "LINE SEVEN" says made in
    Taiwan.  The "LINE SEVEN" has a decidedly coarser fabric than does the
    "LINE 7".  The hardware used is the same as is the general appearance
    of the garments.  No difference in price and the two brands are
    intermingled on the racks.
    
    The "LINE 7" fabric seems to have a thicker PVC impregnation over the
    nylon substrate.  I didn't check the substrate material on the "LINE
    SEVEN" but it doesn't feel as strong or as supple as the "LINE 7". 
    Feels sorta like the stuff used in blue tarps.
    
    Looks like another case of borderline trademark infringement.  I'd be
    sure to get the real thing if were to pay the top $$$$ they're asking.
    
    - gene

    Well, it's time to invest in a decent pair of foul weather pants.  I
    was in Freeport ME. yesterday and dropped in at the Patagonia outlet. 
    They had some of their foul weather stuff on sale.  Bibs were $125.00
    jackets were $150.00.  It is last years stock and they will not
    introduce a new line until next year.  Apparently the improved version
    of their coating did not hold up real well so they have pulled it off
    the market.  I am thinking about the pants and was wondering if anyone 
    has any news good or bad on them.  They seem pretty tough and are 
    generously cut.  Are these suitable for offshore?  They allow for 
    layering underneath for warmth.  I also have a Sea Gear jacket which has 
    held up fairly well.  Any comments +/- ?  I am planning on using this 
    stuff for a fairly long offshore passage and do not want to get caught
    in the middle of the Atlantic with inadequate gear on.     
    
    Brian  
     

    
    I called Lynn Marine in Marblehead, as Gene suggested in .44,
    and got some prices on Line Seven (from Taiwan):
    
    	o  PVC outside, nylon lining:	$88 Jacket, $72 Pants
        o  Nylon outside, PVC inside:	$144 Jacket, $120 Pants
        o  Short jacket ("Islander"):	$112 Jacket
    
    The person answering the phone (617)-631-1305 seemed pretty
    well informed about the status of Line 7 vs Line Seven; apparently
    the owners of Line 7 went bankrupt, then later bought the company
    back.  He says he can't get them from New Zealand any more.
    
    Given Alan's earlier comments about PVC on the outside it sounds
    like the cheaper suit is the one to get...  but is this the "clammy"
    suit referred to in an earlier reply?  It does have a nylon lining
    (and the prices are much better than at Boat U.S.)
    
       /jim
    

    Re: -.2  The Patagonia pants are very good.  Make sure they are the
    model with the visible reinforcing around the knees and rear.  I can't
    speak with any confidence concerning the Line 7 situation.  If -.1 is
    right, I'd stay clear for a while.

Based upon my own experience, I'd say Line 7 (with PVC outside) 
definitely, but then I haven't looked closely at what Line Seven, etc may 
really be today.  Frankly, you could do a *lot* worse than a set of Helly 
Hansen yellow PVC bib pants -- cheap, very waterproof, and bound to last 
as well as most of the nylon-outside versions.

Some observations:

-  Breathability or ventilation in pants isn't nearly as important as it 
   is in jackets.  I prefer the totally impervious pants, depending on a 
   modicum of ventilation (i.e., get em baggy.)  Sitting or kneeling on
   Gore-Tex or any lightweight flexible membrane seems to delaminate or
   cause other failure in everything they've tried.  (Think:  What has a
   clear reputation for impervious impenetrability?  PVC outside with
   welded seams is about all.) 

-  The best foul weather combo for durable comfort below the waist is poly
   underwear, highly breathable trousers if necessary, and the PVC-coated 
   pants mentioned above.  The best use of a Patagonia catalog isn't to 
   buy their FWG, but rather the right selection for you among their
   various synchilla, capilene, etc, synthetic fiber garments.  They wick
   moisture away and keep you warm -- they work. 

-  Seriously:  Buy a pair of Helly Hansen PVC pants, perhaps a jacket, too. 
   It'll cost you under $100 combined at a discount store like Nelson's in 
   Gloucester, and even if you don't prefer them over your $275
   coated-nylon set, they make a wonderfully dry and cost-effective
   back-up set for when the nylon one rips.  

-  You'll find anytime you have a slightly messy and wet job, you'll pull
   out the HH.  Every noticed what the lobstermen all wear?  It ain't
   Patagonia.... 

J.

    
    
    my wife and I were thinking of getting a wet suit for those chilly
    Marblehead waters - she also wants to do some sailboarding....
    
    
     Any recommendations as to type, and make?
    
    Gregg

    Oneils are real nice, so are the Kahula's from Hawaii. Rip Curl makes
    some nice models also. The trick is to order the right one for it's
    intended purpose. Years ago, a wet suit was a wet suit. That has
    changed as the thickness is different in various places to make it more
    comfortable being used. As an example, many of the sailboard suits have
    a 2mm shoulder section so that the suit isn't trying to straighten out
    your arms like a scarecrow. And the knees may be reinforced to make
    them last longer and be more comfortable. 
    
    A second consideration is the styles. I like a 2 peice (farmer john
    bottoms and a full jacket). Some people like the jacket to have nylon
    arms instead of neoprene. Some folks like shorty pants (not too useful
    in the chilly north atlantic).
    
    A third consideration is features. I like a full zipper in my farmer
    johns as it makes putting it on and taking it off easier than a farmer
    john with only a velcro opening on a shoulder. For the same reason I
    like zippers running up the back of the legs and arms. Another thing is
    to look at the knees. Are they reinforced and can they easily be 
    repaired when torn (a matter of time). 
    
    A lot of the cost of a wetsuit is the material. You ussally get what
    you pay for. A cheap suit will come apart or uv in a couple of years
    where a quality suit will provide service for the money. And unless
    you HAVE to be fashionable, don't buy those neon colored suits. You
    will never get a match come repair time. 
    
    To buy them, the best buys are during overseas trips. Rip Curls are half
    price in Australia compared to here. Years ago we used to order ours
    from a sport shop in Scotland and have them delivered. Showed up in less
    then a week. But then again the dollar was worth close to twice as
    much, so the savings were super.
    
    A good place to start is the Want Ads. There are always people getting
    rid of them there. Just don't buy a scuba suit. It is the worst suit
    you can get for windsurfing or open boating. It is too thick, has no
    nylon coating to keep from tearing the neoprene, and the crotch snap is
    an instrument of torture when you are sitting on it.
    
    You may try a couple of Catamaran and windsurfing shops to see what you
    like. Try on several types before you buy. They all fit differently. Wear a
    dry t-shirt and shorts inside. If you can feel comfortable. You will be
    fine when it gets wet. you may also try a pfd over the top to make sure
    you are comfortable. A lot of the windsurfers go without them, but in
    an open boat when the water is cold, you really ought to be wearing
    one.
    
    a decent wetsuit can be had from the CAT House or Murrays for about 100
    dollars. A nice Oneil with nylon arms will will set you back 140-160
    dollars, but you can always dicker on the price.
    
    john

Late, but:

1)  If mobility is important, windsurfing suits have been engineered ahead 
of most others for comfort.  Perhaps those designed for cat sailors are 
similar.  Dive suits are relatively clumsy, though fine when underwater 
with 50+ lbs of tank/etc on your back; dive suits are often made thicker 
and therefore are warmer, though I'd never wear one for any kind of
sailing again. 

2)  Windsurfing suits look "retro" to some eyes in comparison to dive 
suits, since they choose to have an outer layer of smooth neoprene in most 
areas rather than the fancier (i.e,, brighter, heavier, costlier) Nylon II.  
The two advantages of the smoother outer layer are overall membrane
flexibility and warmth *out* of the water.  This latter reason is
critical:  after soaking, a fabric layer outside holds water, which the
wind then evaporates over a few minutes, further cooling the occupant.  A
smooth neoprene sheds water nearly totally, reducing evaporative heat
loss. 

3)  I bought mine through Windsurfing By Mail (they have an 800 number.)  
Extra-long large size one-piece in some name brand was ~$110 shipping
included. 

J.

    I'm considering buying a wetsuit to extend the sailing season
    a bit into the fall.  Not to the point where there is ice
    on the water, but just into say October some time.  It seems
    like there are a couple of choices and I'm confused about which is
    the best for sailing a Laser on inland water.  One possibility is
    to get a short suit with short sleeves and wear a pair of shorts
    to keep the butt from wearing out.  Another possibility is to get
    a pair of wetsuit shorts that are extra thick in the back, and
    a separate jacket.  Is a long-leg suit needed in early autumn?
    
    So far I've managed with just a swimsuit and T shirt...but it's
    been at least 80 every day since I've had my boat!
    
    Doug.

    I'd get full length legs if you are looking for October. Sure the water
    is more warm than it is in March, but after a good storm, it takes a
    lot of sunny days to make is nice again. If you get a two piece, you
    can wear the bottoms on nice days with a t-shirt and maybe a
    windbreaker. Really quite comfortable.
    
    Plus you have some padding on your knees for sparing them them roll
    tacking.
    
    I have never seen shorts by themselves. More "shorties" as their
    called, have a upper torso section, with or without sleeves.
    
    Don't worry about wearing out the butt. They can take it. 
    
       john

    
    Hi,
    
    Where can I get MUSTO foul weather gear ?  I'm looking to find some of
    last season's stock.   I've heard that Musto is changing some/all of
    their line to a cheaper material and different coating.  I've found 
    a last season's Coastal Jacket,  now I'm looking for some bibs.
    
    I'm aware of the places in the other replies (UK Mail order, West Marine, 
    ISP, Lyn Marine, Nelson's... where's Defenders ???).  I'll call these places
    Monday.  I've also tried Marine Exchange and JT's in Newport.  Any other 
    suggestions ?  Anywhere in the US,  I know what I'm looking for.  All I
    need to do is make the phone call.  Appears UK mail prices aren't that 
    much better any more (at least not with today's exchange rate).
    
    I'll post another reply with a list of all the places people tell me 
    about via mail.   I'll also post more info on  the Musto changes if
    I find out any more info.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Larry

    
    Musto is changing the "Coastal" model in their line.  It was previously
    a neoprene coated bri-nylon as was their "Ocean" and "Offshore" models.
    Now it is going to be a PVC coated bri-nylon.  Only a coating change...
    not a material change as I had been lead to believe.
    
    Larry
    
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Defender's and ISP (International Sailing Products) are one in the 
    same !  Different name, phone number, catalog, and separate mailing
    lists, but common inventory and the identical prices.  Turns out they're
    both owned by the same parent company now.    It was sort of strange
    when I called, asked a question and at both places they told me the
    guy I should speak to was on vacation, call back Monday and ask for
    so and so... the same guy!  
    
    

I race a J-24 and I need to purchase new foul weather gear.  My current gear
consists of my father's Helly Hansen pants and two lightweight yellow jackets.
I can get by with the jackets if it is not too cold.  The problem with the
pants is that they do NOT fit in the hip area.  Prying pants on and off all
day is not my idea of fun.  

I am looking for some recommendations for new gear.  I have visited Boat US
many times to try on the FWG, but I can't seem to find a pair that fits
(ie. over the hips but not too big in the waist).  

I also just spent a weekend sailing with a women who wore the new Henri
Loyld jacket with the hood in the collar.  Every time we tacked she would
try to pull her hair from the velcro that fastens the collar together. 

Suggestions needed.

Regards,
Elaine

    
    	All you can do is try different stuff until you find what works for
    you.  When I was at J-worlds one of the students had just finished a
    long search for a suitable outfit.  The folks at Team-One in Newport
    R.I. had fixed her up.  I believe she ended up with pants from one firm
    and a jacket from another.  They have an 800 number give them a call
    they should be able to help you.  The other choice is to hit a boat
    show(s) the next time one is close.  Then try on different outfits mix
    and match if needed.
    
    Forrest

    re .67
    
    Why not stop by the Newport Boat Show next weekend (Sept 10-13). Should 
    be a good selection there to try out. Prices??? Take a chance at a
    show but always a good chance of seeing LOTS of merchandise.
    
    

    My "shoreside skipper" is a fan of Douglas Gill gear as it has features
    that make life easier for the female sailor.
    
    Pete
    

    Try wearing a belt to cinch in the waist on pants that go on easily. 
    
    This also keeps the suspenders from stretching out of shape which they
    tend to do if worn frequently.
    
    Or wear gym shorts over the pants to keep the draft down.  Also keeps
    the seat from wearing out prematurely.
    
    - gene

    The idea to visit the Newport Boat Show is excellent; there'll likely
    be eight or ten different brands there.
    
    My wife did just that with me a couple years ago, and found some made
    in Korea which look in every way to be excellent quality, including
    seam construction and sealing.  Her suspender pants have a drawstring
    at the waist, which helps her a gret deal.  They were on sale at the
    show for around $225 total--a very good price for what they are, we
    felt.  (Henri Lloyd's most similar product was about twice that price.)
    
    J. 

    
    	I started to suggest the show until I noticed that the site
    location for her node is N.J.  Would be a bit of a drive to make the
    show.  But if she is willing to wait there is supposed to be a large
    sailboat only show in Atlantic City in February.
    
    Forrest

    Anyone familiar with Splashdown gear?  They were hawking their
    (expensive) wares at the PHRF NEs this past weekend.  Some of the stuff
    looked nice but quite pricey.  Same neighborhood as Henry Lloyd.  
    
    Brian

Thanks for the replies.  I will be going to the Newport Boat Show the afternoon
of September 10th. 

Where is the Newport boat show located? Is it next to the Mooring Restaurant?

Just in case I don't find anything at the boat show I plan on stopping
in at Team-One (Lower Thames St.).

Regards,
Elaine

    
    	It is impossible to miss trust me.....  Maybe we will run itno one
    another I am going to go thursday unless the weather is rotten.  I went
    last year in the monsoon rain and electrical storm not fun.....  I am
    sure that Team One will have a booth they have in past years.
    
    
    Forrest