Conference terri::cars_uk

    
    I read somewhere that the RS Escort will be producing 220bhp,
    available Sept 1991, priced around 17k (pounds).
    
    I've no idea what the XR3i (16V, 140bhp) will cost...
    
    Later.
    
    -fv
    
    PS: It going to prove very interesting how Ford plan to keep
        all that power in the 'new' model on the road ??

    �17K sounds far too cheap.  How much does the 4wd Sapphire cossie cost?
    I'dexpect the new escort turbo 4wd 150mph (anticipated) to be about
    2-3k less than the Sapphire 
    
    
    John

This seems the most relevant note for a snippet I heard on French radio 
recently (France Info, to be precise).

Apparently, Ford are launching the new Escort in France with a revolutionary
pricing structure, based on two simple principles:

- The price you pay is entirely dependent upon trim level (CLX, Ghia etc.)

- The price differential between the cheapest trim and the most expensive will
  be very narrow.

Thus, an Escort 1.4 CLX, 1.6 CLX and 1.8 diesel CLX will all cost EXACTLY the
same, and so on for other trim levels. I presume that "specials" such as XR*, 
RS* will not be covered by this scheme. 

Following the second principle, the price difference between CLX (lowest trim) 
and Ghia (highest) is minimal, possibly as low as 4000FF (�400).

Has anybody heard anything similar in other European countries? Is this an
experiment in France only?

What effect will this have on the competition's pricing models?

What does the team think?

Ceri

Hmmmmmmm seems unlikely

    Yes, very unlikely. EG, a diesel version is usualy a couple of thousand
    quid more expensive than a petrol engined otherwise identical car.
    
    Colin

Re: previous replies

I agree that this all sounds completely crazy, but the news report (part of 
thier regular "motoring news" - usually well informed) presented it
as fact, including phrases such as ("this means that henceforth diesels will be 
systematically priced the same as petrol models"). For Ford in France this last
point isn't too surprising, as they regularly have "diesel for the price of
petrol" special offers towards the end of the model year.

I suppose we just have to wait and see... I think they said the cars would be
available in October in France. I'll report back once more facts emerge, if
anybody is interested.

Anybody want to bet?

Ceri

    re the last couple;
    
    Ford in the UK have run the same promotion a few times (diesel for the
    same price as 1600 petrol).
    
    The price differential isn't that great; e.g. Orion 1.4L is �9240,
    while the 1.8D L is �9520. I guess the Turdo diesel will be a bit more
    expensive; Citroen charge about �900 premium for the Turbo option.
    (19 TGD is �10,636, the TGD Turbo is �11,531).
    
    Gosh, you can tell that (a) I'm bored, and (b), I bought this weeks'
    Autocar...
    
    Peter.
    

    There are three price bands in France for 3/5 door:
    
    FF 75,900 - 1.4, 1.6, 1.8D CLX
    FF 77,400 - 1.4, 1.6, 1.8D GL
    FF 79,800 - 1.4, 1.6, 1.8D Ghia
    
    For Cabriolet, the price is FF130,400
    For Clipper (estate) it's FF80,000 for the 1.4, 1.6, 1.8D GL
                              FF85,400 for 1.6 Ghia
    
    Ken

    I have the brochure if anyone wants it .. @REO
    
    Mike

    
    So if i've got this right, there is a �400 difference between a 
    1.4 CLX and a 1.8 Ghia.
    
    Whilst i can see people buying a 1.4 for the economy, who is going to
    buy a CLX ?
    
    What this shows is that in automated car plants, the difference in
    build costs is negligible.
    
    Nigel

    Re. 8 - slight typo - there is no 1.4 ghia. 
    
    The prices were also issued before VAT was reduced from 25% to 22%. 

    
    
    I recently read in a car mag (cant remember which one) details of Fords
    replacement for the XR3i. Its not an 1800 16v but a 2 litre 16v and 
    is going to be badged as another RS, the RS2000!! (it wont be a real
    RS like like the original RS2) Dont Ford want to make cars worthy of 
    this once elite title anymore.
    Should be interesting to see some figures on it though.
     
                         Nick.

    There will be 3 performance Escorts available.

    The RS Cosworth 4x4 240 bhp 0-60 5.0 secs 150mph Price #30,000

    RS2000              150 bhp 0-60 8.5 secs 130mph Price #16,000

    XRi 1800cc 16v      130 bhp

    The RS2000 will be out next spring, followed by the Cozzy early in '92.
    Finally in summer '92 the XR3i will be released.

    This info from A&M 22/8/90

    - Roy (Who has got to replace his XR3i shortly but can't wait 'til '92!)

    Re .13
    
�    The RS Cosworth 4x4 240 bhp 0-60 5.0 secs 150mph Price #30,000
    
    Is that the price Ford would charge if it were available now ?
    
    If it is, it would cost far too much
    (they've got the hardware in the Sapphire already)
    
    If it is a guess at 1992 car prices, I bet it goes up...

    Re: .14
    
    The following is from the article mentioned in .13
    
    "German specialist manufacturer Karmann will build th RS Cosworth
    4x4 for Ford. At least 5000 must be built to satify rallying
    regulations.Tipped to cost #30,000, the Escort's performance flagship
    will be almost twice as expensive as any other car in the range."
    
    - Roy
    

 In Motoring News last (this?) week, there is a short article about the 4x4 
cossy Escort having won its first rally, the first it has entered. It was 
a small foreign (spain, or similar) rally, can't remember which. Anyone else
see this ?

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    Re .15
    
�    "German specialist manufacturer Karmann will build th RS Cosworth
    
    I did not know Karmann had any competition background, is this their
    first job of this nature (besides cutting the roof off of cars) ?
    

    The RS is based on the Floorpan of the Sierra (Sp?) 4x4 Cosworth but
    pumps out 250bhp in road going form with a 7 speed manual gear box.
    
    There is always going to be someone dumb enough to fork out �30,000 on
    an Escort.
    
    Grant

    And a �30000 Escort with a roof level spoiler, although the paint job
    in the piccys I've got is well wicked.
    
    (��)Munce.

    Has anybodyseen this weeks auto express write up on the new performance
    excorts i.e.RS cosworth, RS2000 and the XR3i.
    
    	They loved the look of the cosy but at the secret unveiling they
    crept into they said the new RS2000 looked very tame and almost boring
    and the picture of the XR3i looked very plain indeed. They also quoted
    as saying that the RS2000 would have some sort of modified 2 litre
    sierra engine with 16 valves and that the XR3i would  contain the
    all new 1.8 litre Zeta engine. Price for the RS2000 is estimated to be
    around 15,500 pounds. Any comments.
    
    Regards Martin

    
    Presumably the RS2000 will have the Sierra DOHC cam engine (I hope with
    some livelier cams since the Sierra's performance with this engine is
    far from exciting) or is this an 8 valve DOHC engine?
    
    Sounds like the usual Ford performance problem...
    
    Too little for too much!
    
    Mark

    It quotes as having 16 valves and being about 150BHP, performance
    figures are estimated to br around 130MPH and 0-60 of 8.5 secs which
    does seem a bit sluggish for all those ponies!!!!
    
    ReGards Martin

�    It quotes as having 16 valves and being about 150BHP, performance
�    figures are estimated to br around 130MPH and 0-60 of 8.5 secs which
�    does seem a bit sluggish for all those ponies!!!!
    
    I would certainly expect better acceleration figures than that,
    so either it doesn't produce 150 bhp, or if it does, it produces
    very little power on the way there.  Alternatively, it could be
    that it is either too heavy or has poor grip from the chassis...
    
    J.R.

    
    The Escort 2 litre and Sierra 2 litre engines are not the same
    units. The Sierra 2 litre is essentially a pinto with a new head
    and cam gear and still mounted longitudinally driving the rear
    wheels!.  I think this engine might be classified the I4?
        
    The Escort 1.6 16v, 1.8 16v and 2.0 16v are 'Zeta' engines.

    
    
    ...yawn....MS warbling on about Ford performance again...yawn
    
    
        :-)
    
    The 150bhp 2.0 performance which was quoted as 130ish top with
    8.3 0-60 is very much on a par with the 150bhp engines produced
    by GM, Alfa and the Japs and even the 160bhp PSA engine.
    
    Richard

    

    Auto express must have it wrong then because the certainly state that
    the RS2000 will have its 16valve 2.0 derived from the sierra engine
    while the XR3i will have the Zeta 1.8 engine, IF their not wrong whats
    the 2.0 litre zeta engine for??????
    
    
    Regards Martin

    

    Auto Express never get anything correct....

    
    Yawn...Ford haven't made a decent engine since the Essex, certainly not 
    that torque-less wonder they replaced it with!
    
    Mark 
    
    PS Of course Cosworth have managed to make silk purses out of Ford's
    sows ears! :^)
    

    
    I thought you had gone through a mind warp Mark (.28), but good to see
    that .30 is back up to scratch.....  :-)
    
    
    
    Nigel

    
    Come on Nigel, I've hardly slept since last Wednesday! The pleasures
    and perils of moving house! :^)
    
    Mark

 Re .24

	I am sure that around two years ago, Ford came out with a completely new
DOHC 2ltr for the Sierra / Grandad. Although it was said to be hardly any better
than the pinto that had been used before, although it was smoother. I ahve no
idea how many valves it was, but it would be this one that I would expect to be
the engine that Auto Express are talking about.


		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    re-1
    
    It was the old 2Litre unit with DOHC added (2Valves per cylinder &
    125Bhp).
    
    Grant

�                   -< Why 2 camshafts when only 2v per cyl? >-

>>               <<< Note 1132.37 by CHEST::RUTTER "Rut The Nut" >>>
>>�                   -< Why 2 camshafts when only 2v per cyl? >-

    Presumably so that the valves are driven direct:
    With a single cam, either all, or at least half of the valves are
    driven by rocker arms, with all the problems that indirect operation
    gives, (greater moving mass, lag in operation between cam end valve
    etc..)
    
    With Twin camshafts, even driving only one valve per cylinder for each
    camshaft, the camshafts can be directly over the valves, operating
    direct.
    
    Remember, this is how ALL the old Twin Cams worked! (Fiat mirafiori
    etc)
    
    Richard

    
    Re .39
    
    A very old twin Cam Ford modification! :^)
    
    Mark

    Is anyone aware of any engine modifications to the Escort 1.3 unit?
    
    A friend has a 1981 1.3 and has just bought a 1987 1.3 (not 1.4), but 
    the engines actually look different (the head/rocker cover especially).
    
    Any ideas??
    
    Ta, Craig..

    
    The 1.3 is now designated HCS (High Compression Swirl). I don't
    know when this changed - but it is different (head/pistons only?)
    from the old 1.3.
    
    R.

    My brother inlaw belongs to the RS Owners Club and the chairman was at
    their last local meeting and he told 'em all that the cosworth powered
    escort would be about 17 grand when it hits the streets next year.
       Remarkably cheap for a 150mph 0-60 6.0 sec car.
    
    Regards Martin(who is wondering how much it will be on the scheme)

    
    Unbelievably cheap....
    
    An Integrale eating RHD car for WELL under 20k? Maybe I'll have to eat
    my words about performance (pah! :^) ) Fords being overpriced?
    
    Mark

    � COSWORTH POWER FOR 17,000 QUID
    
    Are you sure thats for the Cossy and not the RS2000 ?
    
    A&M last year quoted �30,000 for the Cosworth and �16,000 for the RS.
    
    The cossy is something special and �17k sounds far too good to be true.
    
    Roy

�     COSWORTH POWER FOR 17,000 QUID
    
    I cannot believe that...  [lots] Cheaper than the Sapphire Cossie ?
    
    Essex would be a [more] dangerous place to drive then !   ;-)
    
    J.R.

re< Note 1132.46 by KETJE::SHASTA::RUTTER "I've Been Out Supping" >
>              -< If this were true, it'd be a Ford worth buying >-
>
>�     COSWORTH POWER FOR 17,000 QUID
>    
>    I cannot believe that...  [lots] Cheaper than the Sapphire Cossie ?
>    
>    Essex would be a [more] dangerous place to drive then !   ;-)
    

   Correction.  Norfolk "would be [more] dangerous place to drive then!"

   Jane.

     A Cossie NB for 17k....I might have to admit to being a FORD driver !
    
    But I am pretty certain that its the RS2000 for 17k .
    Which on a friend of mines opinion after a test drive is crap. 
    However he said that even the test drivers bottle out before the car
    with the Cossie.
    
    
    Isn't the R19 16v spec better than the RS2000 for about 3-4k less.
    
    
    Sean

    re-1
    
    I've yet to even see a photograph of one, tell me more.
    
    Re last few 17k does seem cheap but its only ear say after all.
    
    Martin

    Well its pure ear say again but My freind went into an RS dealer
    the other day just for a nose and got talking to one of the sales
    guys (not more bull!#*& I hear you cry) the RS2000 is supposed to be 
    debuted at RS National day at Donnington which I think is on sept 15th
    and it was rumored to be about 23,000 grand which seems well over the
    top and the escort cossy will be about 34,000 and will be made in
    limited numbers.Apart from that he had no more info until the car is
    launched in showrooms on1st October and he gets info pack and car on
    the same day.
    
    
    Regards Martin

   > and it was rumored to be about 23,000 grand which seems well over the
   
    23,000 grand = 23 million pounds. Now thats expensive.
    
    Phil Gill.

    I know it seems like I'm talking to myself but if anyone interested
    Autocar and Motor have a driving report on the RS2000 out on wednesday
    next week.
    
    martin

    �seems like I'm talking to myself.
    
    Whys that ? Your note is a useful pointer IMO.

    I'm interested, although it's going to be a bit expensive for me to buy
    one. When I change the Escort RS, it will probably be for a new Fiesta
    RS or a used Cossie (if insurance is forthcoming, which I doubt :-(  )
    
    Gary. (Who will hopefully be heading over to the RS nationals day at
           Donington Park on the 22nd of September)

Please move this if it's in the wrong place...

I need to get my Escort RS serviced. I work in Newbury, live in the
Reading/Newbury/Basingstoke triange.

Question - where are all the RS garages?  I don't want to use Anchor
Ford in Reading.  Why not?  Because it's on fleets not-recommended
garage list, and the last time I used it my car was stolen from their
car pound.

Colin.

If its just a routine service, then any Ford garage should be able to
service it.

Alternately you could try Ralphes garage at Viables (B'stoke). He has a good
reputation locally and is an agent for Hertz and PHH and services all makes
of cars including performance models. If you want his no. let me know (I
haven't got it at the mo).

- Roy (Who'll be taking his RS fiasco to Ralphes in future as he wasn't
      impressed with Jacksons)

    Well after eagerly awaiting Autocar and Motor for the RS2000 report
    only to be dissapointed. What they say;
        0-60 in 8.9 secs
        top speed 129
        150 bhp at 6500 rpm
        Only options are air conditioning and CD
        expected to be 16,000 - 17,000 pound
    
    They do say thats it a good car, they suspect that fords figures are
    a bit conservative, so its fairly quick but it lacks excitement. The
    only real criticism they have is that the engine is noisy as its the
    2 litre lump as used in the sierra and granada with a 16 valve head on
    it.
    
    Regards Martin
        

    Hmmmm the performance figures are very disappointing Martin, especially
    for the new breed of RS (Rallye Sport) derivitives. It should have been
    called an XR or something - perhaps VP (very Poor) would be better :-)
    
    Ah well, guess we'll just have to wait for the proper 'RS' , which is
    going to be ridiculously expensive anyway (Escort RS Cossie 4x4).
    
    Gary.

    
    I noticed that this was the first non AVO/SVE RS.
    
    Mark

    Thats probably why it is so crap then.....
    
    I can just hear Jeremy Clarkson now "It couldn't pull a greased stick
    out of a pig's arse" or similar words to the same effect.
    
    Gary (Escort owner, so not biased against Fords :^) )

    I suspect that Ford have left the RS 2000 engine in a state of sort of
    detunedness (if you dig what I mean) so as so make the RS 4x4 Cossie
    Escort look good when it comes out. The performance of the RS 2000 may
    be somewhat better than that suggested by Ford anyway as pointed out by
    Martin.
    
    Gary. (If you buy one make it a Turbo Technics jobby).

    They also say that when the the XR3i with its 1.8 zeta engine is
    released the 1.6 s will dissapear. But lets face facts ,the old XR
    was capable of 9.0 secs 0-60 so the new one must at least be the
    equivalant of that, and it would have to be a couple of grand cheaper.
       Surely that will make the two cars to close in performance for
    comfort. I cant believe that fords would be that stupid (would they?)
    Either the XR3 is going to be sluggish or they are being VERY cautious
    with they're performance figures for the RS.
    
    Regards Martin
    
    P.S that makes its baby fiaco brother a full second quicker

    
    The Fiasco Turbo doesn't do 0-60 in 7 dead (8 was the RS2000, right?),
    but anyway a fairer comparison is to the normally aspirated XR2i, which
    is somewhere in the high 8s I believe.
    
    I read in A&M a ford claim of 8.9 (No wait a second it was in MN) for
    the 0-60, which for a 16k car with sporting pretentions is pretty duff.
    
    However, all accounts suggest that Ford have at least got the handling
    right on the RS2000.
    
    Mark

    re-1
    
    Ford claim 8.9secs so according to my maths that makes about 7.9
    which I thought was about right for th RS fiasco.
    
    
    Regards Martin

    
    I'd agree with that, but the figure mentioned in here was 8 seconds.
    
    I don't want any Ford RS Turbo owners getting disappointed that their
    car won't do 0-60 in 7 seconds! :^)
    
    Anyone know how much the RS2000 weighs? With 150 bhp, you'd expect a
    better 0-60 than that! For a comparison the Calibra 16v (which must
    surely weigh more than an Escort?) does 0-60 in 8.1 seconds with the
    same amount of power (A&M figure).
    
    Mark

    
    	One possible reason for the seemingly poor figure for the RS2000
    	0-60 was that originally there was going to be a 1.6s and next up
    	an RS2000 - No XR3i. I believe Ford did not want to create too
    	large a gap between the performance of the 's' and the 'rs' Now
    	with an XR3i planned the gaps between the three are too small.
    	IMO the RS should have 160bhp and around 7.5-8.0 0-60.
    
    			Tony

        
    
    The 0-60 figures are a bit meaningless; so much depends on the
    gearing. If 60 or 62 isn't reached in 2nd any 0 - 60 time is
    going to appear slow.  But the overall performance could still 
    be good.

    The rev limiter on my Astra cuts in with 62 on that horrible
    electronic gauge and I imagine that helps the 0-62 time look
    impressive. 
    
    Richard.
    

    
    Could be. The Calibra is doing about 80 when the Rev limiter cuts
    in, in second! :^)
    
    Mark

    This is indeed very true, because if you have an extra gear change to
    negosiate, then the 0-60 time is going to seem slow. With my chipped
    Escort it is now possible to do 60 in second due to the raised rev
    limit from 6200 - 7000rpm. The difference this makes is v. good also
    because I no longer lose speed or suddenly cut the engine out anymore.
    BBR say that it is better to over rev the engine slightly than have a
    very harsh rev limiter cut in which causes more wear/damage.
    
    Gary.

    I remember hearing that the old Ferrari 512 BB could exceed 60 MPH in
    reverse - but then that has a litte bit more that 150 bhp :-)
    
    I must admit that this sounds a bit off 'coz you would expect reverse
    to be lower geared than 1st and the BB isn't good for 60 odd in 1st.
    Still the person telling me was sitting on the bonnet of his BB has had
    been talking perfect sence up till that point.
    
    PS The Reg no was V 5AST

    RE .67
    
    Mark,
        The weight of the RS2000 is 2445lbs or 1110kg.
    
    
    Martin
    

    I make it about 137 hp per ton which surley should make it better than
    8.9 0-60.
    
    
    martin

    CAR say Ford quote 8.7 0-60 so we're getting quicker, before you know
    it we'll be under 8.0 and 140 MPH.
        But back to the real world, CAR actually say its a very nice car
    to drive and the only real criticism is the poor performance and the
    price tag. They also state it was only at the last minute that Ford
    decided to call it th RS2000 before that it was going to be called
    the XR3i 2000, which could explain XR performance as opposed to RS
    performance. CAR also mentioned there will be two XR3i's one having
    the all new zeta 1.6 16 valve 105 bhp engine and the other having
    zeta 1.8 16valve 130 bhp which will be on sale early next year.

    
    Re .75
    
    Should this be moved to Fisherman's Tales? :^)
    
    Presumably, the XR3is will be like the Cavalier SRi with a 'normal'
    model and a SRi 130 model?
    
    Mark

    Got it slightly wrong and after reading a second time they say:
    
    		"Then we'll have two 1.8-litre 16V XR3i variants,
        	 one with a puny 105bhp and another with 130. The
      	         RS200 name, incidentally, was a late change from
    		 XR3i 2000."
    
    just as well they changed it otherwise we woul have had 3 XR3i's.
    
    Martin

    >> two 1.8-litre 16V XR3i variants, one with a puny 105bhp and another
    >> with 130.
    
    How can that be ? My old 1.6 8 valve XR3i had 105bhp. Are they saying
    that a 1.8 16v has been developed to offer the same power as the old
    1.6 8v ? 
    
    What a giant leap for mankind I don't think.
    
    - Roy

�    How can that be ? My old 1.6 8 valve XR3i had 105bhp. Are they saying
�    that a 1.8 16v has been developed to offer the same power as the old
�    1.6 8v ? 
    
    Hopefully, it will have more torque (certainly a lot more talk).
    
    Anyone care to put in the relevant figures (from any source).
    
    Anyone care to know ?
    
    J.R.

    
    Re:  a few queries.
    
    0-60 times.
    The RS2000 is rev limited (6500) to 52mph in 2nd, so there is 
    an extra gearchange in the 0-60 time.
    
    
    The XR3i will become a 130bhp 1.8 16v.
    
    
    The 105bhp (110?) bhp 1.8 will replace the Escort 'S'.
    

	Here's some trivia on the TV advertisement for the new RS2000.

	The whole advert was shot it California; where a MK 2 RS2000
	is pictured in a old garage covered in dust, is rebuilt into
	the new car. This is all set to the Rocky music 'The Champ is Back'
	(Thats questionable. IMHO)

	Ford paid to have the MK 2 RS shipped to the states. This RS has won
	many Concours prizes including the Ford Fair and the RS National day.
	The Number Plate in the advert is RUD 111T, which is changed from the
	number plate that the owner uses for shows - RUD 1T, (Don't ask me
	what that means) which again is a False plate and is really BOX ??? V.
	Ford used artificial dust so not to damage this immaculate car.

    Yea, saw this add on the box last night...
    
    Totally uninspiring... one part that made me laugh was when they said
    "Due to demand, the RS2000 is back". How long have they waited? The old
    Escort RS2000 were wonderful (IMHO) and i'm sure that if they'd brought
    another out before now they would have sold quite a few... with the car
    performances these days, they look/sound like nothing special...

    Re RUD 1T
    
    Are you sure he changed the number from RUD 111T??
    
    
    Cos he drives about with RUD 1T on the roads.
    
    
    
    I know hes a bit stupid...(Remember Castle Coombe!)
    
    But surely not that dumb!

	RE -.1

	I saw the car at the RS National day, and if I recall correctly the
	number plate is changed in the advert ONLY; from RUD 1T to RUD 111T
	(I don't Know the real reason, but it could be for security ???)

	I thought that 'RUD 1T' was only a show plate but I stand corrected
	on that one.

	Having seen the condition of this car its hard to believe that he
	actually drives it on the road. (The underside of the car is in
	same condition as the bodywork !!)

	PS. What Happened at Castle Combe ?

	RE -.2

	Agree entirely. Ford were giving trips around Donnington at the
	National day in the new RS, and I was not surprised to find the
	old Mk2 RS out handling them hands down. Also sad to see that Ford
	have called the car the RS2000, when it was untouched by AVO or
	SVE

	Peter.

    
    I saw an RS2000 (mk whatever the new one is) at Thruxton yesterday.
    It was very understated (won't be popular with the XR3i/RS Turbo
    owner of popular conception! :^)) with only the wheels drawing my
    attention to it.
    
    It paled greatly next to the Honda NS-X and ground shaking  (literally!)
    Lotus Carlton also present.
    
    Mark
    

    
    Re Castle Coombe.
    
    
    He was disqualified from the Concours cause he took it upon himself
    to go for a spin round the track when nobody meant to be down on it.
    
    
    

    See a little snippet in Auto Express about the RS2000 and where ford
    were going and the asked some spokesman about the rumoured RS Turbo
    i.e new RS2000 with a turbo to slot in between the the RS2000 and the
    escort cossie and they replyed "NO COMMENT"
    
    Martin

not quite...

... the Ford "no comment" is on whether the RST will will have the 2 litre
engine from the RS2000 or the Zeta 1800 (in both cases turbocharged).

The basic concept of the RS_Turbo is not in doubt.

/. Ian .\

    I was in a Ford dealer and was chatting to a salesman about the new
    XR3i 16v. As an earlier note mentions there are two versions available.
    One at 105bhp (�750 cheaper and cheaper insurance) and one with 130bhp.
    
    I asked how they would be badged and was surprised when he said that
    apart from the alloy wheels which are standard on 130bhp, they would be
    identical to look at. The markings on back stating XR3i 16v on both
    models. 
    
    An unusual marketing strategy ?
    
    Roy

    
    Sounds like a good way of selling LOTS of the cheaper ones!
    
    Mark

    How will you know when buying as second hand one???
    
    Ian.

    �How will you know when buying as second hand one???
    
    I noticed the one in the showroom had "105" stamped on the engine.
    Presumably the 130 will be similarly marked.
    
    Good point though.
    
    I don't agree with Mark's point that people will buy the cheaper one
    just because they look the same, or are you suggesting that someone
    choosing an XR3i will get it for pose value rather than performance. 
    (Awaiting a smiley from MS).
    
    Roy

    
    A lot of people like the odds and trimmings on a car like the XR3i, but
    aren't really interested in performance (not the difference between 105
    and 130 bhp anyway).
    
    When GM released the Calibra they were hoping for something like 80% of
    sales to be 16 valve models, but they found that the similarly equipped
    (and looking, perhaps more importantly) 8 valve sold a lot better than
    they expected (and at a lower price).
    
    Mark

    
    Of course someone looking for a real performance car wouldn't buy an
    XR3i of any type! :^)
    
    Mark

	The same sort of marketing strategy is to be used for the 16V Fiesta. 
	(If I remember right it should be announced end of FEB, early March)

Sean

    Sean.
    
    Any ideas how it will be badged ? (ie RS or XR2...)
    
    Has the RS Turbo finished production yet ?
    
    Roy

    
    Has anyone test-driven RS2000 16V? Any opinions? Looking to specs it
    seems to be an interesting machine.
    
    
    Hannu

	Re: .96

	I heard that the lower rating 16V was going to be called XR2i 16V and the
replacement one for the turbo would be called Fiesta RS 16V. I heard this last 
year so things can change. I will have a little chat to find out whats happening
now.

Sean

Roy,

Just got the latest What Car which has a review of the new XR3i, they
weren't too impressed!

Greg

    �weren't too impressed!
    
    Greg, care to paraphrase why (in case I don't get chance to read it).
    
    I would add that this isn't a car I would consider, even the 130 model.
    I'm interested to see how the 16v Fiesta's turn out though.
    
    Long way to go on the lease of the Fiesta but if I had to order a new
    lease car now, I would probably go for the 16v Clio as it represents
    great value going by recent quotes, and like the Fiesta there is plenty
    of headroom for the tall driver as it has a pop up sunroof rather than
    a slide back one which is normally a problem.
    
    Roy

    Paraphrase of What Car review of new xr3i vs Renault 19 16v vs Nissan
    Sunny GTI.
    
    "same quick responding power-steering rack as RS...springs and dampers
    are softer to improve the ride at the expense of a little handling
    sharpness"
    
    performance is poor compared to the Renault and Nissan, "as the escort
    has Ford's brand-new multi million pound Zeta engine, this is a little
    disappointing"
    
    "good points, best at low to medium revs, pulls cleanly and strongly"
    
    "refinement is mediocre, noisy at high revs, with a vibration through
    the gear lever. These faults, we have been told, will be rectified by
    the time the car goes on sale to the public"
    
    steering = "vague, slow responding zone around the straight-ahead
    position changes into an exaggerated reaction as you turn the wheel,
    making the XR3i dart unnaturally into a bend..little feedback from the
    road"
    
    conclusion "so the reborn XR3i is overshadowed.. work to be done on
    refinement"
    
    Then go on to say that's its a good car, but can't compete with the
    Renault and Nissan, they rate it above the Vauxhall Astra SRi
    
    Ratings: out of 5
    
    Nissan  *****
    Renault ****
    Ford    ***
    Vaux    **
    
    Greg

	Adverts in the sunday mags.......


	Escort 1.4 lx             �11,030
	Escort 1.6 lx             �11,030
	Escort 1.8 16v		  �11,600   (or �11,500 can't quite remember)

	The 1.4 Looks fairly expensive to me!

	Heather

    
    Autocar And Motor had a couple of pages on the Escort Cossie due for
    arrival in may. They estimate that it will now be about 21,500 and Ford
    beleive that the Inland Revenue will accept the 10-12% discount so that
    will put in under the 19,250 tax bracket.
    	As for the car 0-60 in 6 secs this is slower than sapphire( 5.6)
    	144 top end, but they say it will be quicker through the gears
    	and around the corners where it matters. These are all Ford figures
    	
    	Power is up again to 227/6250 and 224lb ft/3500
    
    
    Martin

    Do Ford seriously expect to sell any Escorts at all (apart from to
    fleets), even with the new engine?
    
    I've just had a 1.4LX for a day, while my car's in dock, and I can
    honestly say that it's the biggest load of junk I've ever had the
    misfortune to drive.
    
    Its engine was unbelievably bad (noisy, rough, gutless), so it's a good
    job that's been replaced, and its handling made a passable impression
    of a small boat in the open sea; around bends, it was very difficult to
    keep a steady line, without the front of the car wandering all over the
    place. The steering was very heavy, and the seats were conspicuously
    uncomfortable.
    
    My wife's Citroen ZX Reflex (bottom of the range) is made to look like
    a luxury car in comparison (although it's good by any standards), and
    Rover with their 214 must be absolutely wetting themselves laughing
    at the fact that Ford can so badly botch a family hatch.
    
    Does anyone actually like Escorts, or are they really for the "A to B"
    merchants?
    
    
    |SD
         

 �    Do Ford seriously expect to sell any Escorts at all (apart from to
 �    fleets), even with the new engine?
    
       	Yes, they expect to sell millions. It's one of life's great
        mysteries, why so many people buy such awful cars. I guess
        Ford just have a very good marketing department.

        There was an article in Car magazine a couple of years back
        about all the good cars that had failed and the bad ones that
        were a success. It comes down in the end to perception. People
        think that Ford's are good, despite all the evidence, so they buy
        them. Cars like the FIAT Strada 130 and the MG Maestro (all the
        street cred of a pair of flared trousers) just didn't catch the
        imagination of the car buying punters. Shame.

        Ian.

    I really don't understand why people moan about Escorts. I've had a 1.6
    GL Estate MK III from new (1986), and I'm very happy with it. I've done
    nearly 90K very hard miles, it's never let me down, and up until
    recently I'd spent almost nothing on it. It still does 0-60 in around
    11 seconds, and will do an indicated 120mph. It handles reasonably
    well, given decent tyres, and still turns in around 30mph around town;
    on a run, it's better. My one complaint would be that it's difficult,
    even with wider tyres, to stop the front wheels from spinning in 1st
    and 2nd (3rd if it's wet).
    
    That's my experience, yours may have varied. Before you slam a car, you
    should look at initial cost, resale value, maintenance costs, and
    purpose of use. For me, the Escort has proven more than adequate on all
    counts. If I want REAL fun, I take the Frogeye out.
    
    Laurie.

    
    Most people who slam Fords are those who have never driven them!
    

    
    They've just fixed 'em! :^)
    
    Mark

    
    Ouch!
    
    He's starting on Fiesta's now!

    
    Despite the attempted wind up it remains that Ford cars sell. If people
    weren't satisified by their first Ford they wouldn't go for a second.
    You cannot hold onto a position of market leader without follow up
    sales. I believe (yes Lord) that the people who complain aspire to be
    Ford drivers but their wives won't let them.
    
    Chris
    
    Oh yes, I've owned Fords before, I currently have one and I'd have
    another one. But them my wife can't drive so she knows her place when
    it comes to making such important decisions.
    

    
    Fords are aimed at people how know nothing about cars and have no real
    desire to do so. The vast majority, like Vauxhalls, are sold to fleet
    buyers and are built down to a price, not up to a standard (of quality,
    value or driver appeal).
    
    My Wife (before she was) had a Fiesta and it was horrible (a 1.3 Ghia).
    It was unreliable and everything was really difficult to get at when it
    needed fixing. We won't be buying another Fiesta, regardless of how
    good the current model is, because, basically we had a bad experience
    before. There are plenty of other good cars out there and we'll choose
    one of those instead.
    
    � You cannot hold onto a position of market leader without follow up
    � sales. 
    
    Latest figures say they haven't (in the UK anyway)! 
    
    � I believe (yes Lord) that the people who complain aspire to be
    � Ford drivers but their wives won't let them.
    
    The kind of man who buys a Ford is _EXACTLY_ the man who listens to
    his wife when buying a car. Tell me the Orion is a car to aspire to
    or the Xr3i! :^)
    
    Mark
    
    PS This notes ignores all the obvious exceptions to the afforementioned
    rules, which apply to base model cars!. :^)

Re .106

� ...and still turns in around 30mph around town;

    Laurie,

	isn't this rather harsh on the handbrake ?

:-)

I'm sorry, but I never think much of a company that gets it market position
almost by default.

I've never driven the new Escort. I realise that criticisms are churlish,
as most new cars are good, and the Escort is 'good'. It is just that,
compared to the Citr�en ZX's of this world, the Escort is plain mediocre.

I have driven the new Fiesta (my girlfriends 1.1 Pop plus), and I can 
confidently say that it redefines the concept of the small hatchback.

Finished in horrendously cheap looking plastic (worse than my 5!!), and
with 120 turns lock to lock steering (it feels like it!), and a unwilling,
slow engine. It loses any pretence of being nimble, manouverable and nippy.

I fancy that the Renault 5 Campus, the Peugeot 205, the Renault Clio, and
the Metro all run rings round the Fiesta.

I don't think they deserve their position in the market. I hope that they
lose lots of sales very very soon.

Mark.

    Pah humbug!!!!

    Re .107
    
    �     Most people who slam Fords are those who have never driven them!
    
     Most people who buy Fords are those who have never driven anything else!
    
     Ian.

    
    I have driven/owned Peugots, Fords and Vauxhalls on the lease and my 
    current car (Ford) is miles better than any of those two pieces of suedo 
    engineering!
    
    -Tony

    
    My brother, who drives a -87 1.3 Escort says he likes it more than 
    his past car, 323 Mazda. (Well, that doesn't prove much)
    
    I drove the new "Z" 1.8 litre 16 valve Escort, and I think it is not
    bad! (And I am not a Ford fan!)
    
     
    Hannu

    RE: .112
    
    Opps, well spotted! That should, of course, read "30 mpG"
    
    RE: Ford buyers and drivers.
    
    Bearing in mind that they are generalisations, I won't take those
    remarks personally. I have almost 20 years driving experience, and I
    have driven literally hundreds of different cars. I also know
    considerably more than Mr. Average about the mechanics, and other
    physical make-up of cars. On pure value for money, all things
    considered including maintenance, resale value etc., etc. I am still
    very happy with my Escort. If one matched my needs, I would have no
    hesitation buying another Ford. It is, as they say, "horses for
    courses".
    
    Laurie.

    The people who DON'T buy Fords are MALE CHAUVENIST PIGS, taking the
    previous notes into account.
    
    What makes you think it's the WIFE that forces the man to buy a Ford?
    Usually in a family it's how much you can afford to pay for a car!!
    
    I will never buy a Ford for one reason - at 4' 11" its difficult to
    push the clutch completely to the floor!!
    
    Therese

    Re .119
    
    Therese.
    
    Take a look at .110, before you suggest anyone who doesn't buy a Ford
    is a male chauvenist pig. The inference, to which us non-Ford'ers
    responded, is that women won't let men drive the Fords they want,
    presumably because they're too exciting (the cars).
    
    My wife wouldn't let me buy a Ford (well maybe a Sierra Cosworth if I 
    really pleaded), but she knows a good car when she sees one! 
    
    Mark

    
    No, anyone who slags off Ford is just plain old stupid! 8^)

    Well, I didn't quite expect to spark this off, but never mind...
    
    I can only report how I perceive a car on first acquaintance. I've
    driven tens of models/makes of car over the past 15 years, and most of
    what I'd call the "modern generation" of hatch (ZX, Corolla, 214, new
    Astra, etc. etc.). Having driven these newer cars for a much longer
    distance than just down the road, I can only reiterate that the Escort
    is easily the worst of these on several counts.
    
    It may be an initial perception, but that still counts. I tend to
    subscribe to the view that Ford are the IBM of the car industry... If
    Ford is all you know, then that's what you buy. On my experience with
    all these cars, I can't believe that people would actually buy a new
    Escort if they have test-driven a ZX, 214 or Corolla first.
    
    
    |SD
                                                                        

    
    	All of my friends drive Fords,ranging from 1.3L Fiesta to an RS.As 
    some of you who read the notes will realise i'm not a Ford fan
    but,people look for different things in a car.For example
    Speed,Torque,Comfort,MPG so there are many reasons why someone would
    lower themselves to drive a Ford.An escort my have a good engine,it's
    just the fact that fords are so common that it takes the shine of a
    popular family car.
    
    		Andy....Any Ford driver needs a check-up from the neck-up..
    
    	
    		

    
    Andy,
    
    Where has the MUFC bit gone.
    
    Chris _LUFC_ Can't stand football but drives a Ford after having
                 driven others.
    

A big factor in Ford purchase is likely to be price. A coulpe of weeks ago I 
fuelled up at a forecourt that's also a Ford dealer (somewhere in west London)
and a guy was filling up a new XR3i 16v. He was a salesman and said that the
on-the-road price was about �15,800, but immediately said that if I wanted one
now he'd reduce it to 'just over �12k'. That's either a serious discount or
bad pricing policy...


...Art

    Come on now, all makes have their naff models (especially the lower
    spec ones). I have an Escort RS Turbo which although modified, I find
    very comfortable, quick and pleasing to drive. I would suggest that the
    other RS models in the Ford range would impress most of us (as would
    the new Zeta powered XR models). The only question is cost and perhaps
    this may change now that Mr. Hestletine is looking into the structure
    of car prices in the UK.
    
    BTW before the RS I had an XR2 which handled superbly (if a little
    slower than it's rivals) and I found it to be a nice car to drive too.
    Before that I had a Fiesta 1.1 Finesse (which was rather less than what
    I would hope for in a car now. The same can be said of the new Escort
    1.4LX, which I had on hire and found to be particularly dead in the
    engine department).
    
    Some Fords are naff I agree, but you just have to buy the right one
    (and be prepared to shell out the necessary cash).  Whose going to call
    the new Escort RS Cosworth slow with terrible handling and a noisy
    engine ? It depends on what you are used to...e.g. you may drive a
    Formula one car as everyday transport; I know I do ;-)
    
    Gary.

    
    	Gary,
    
    	(I wondered how long it would be before you showed up)Like you
    I also drive a formular 1 car to work everyday(My Astra).For once I
    agree with what you have just said.The only thing is that because Fords
    seem to make special edition Fiesta's,Escorts and Orion for every
    occasion,they flood the market with cars which a virtually the same but
    with different names e.g the Fiesta seaspray or sunburst.The only
    differece with these cars is that they have different paint jobs or a
    sun roof.I'm not saying Vauxhall don't do it but Ford's special
    editions seem to out number everything on the road.
    
    
    		Andy....MUFC..>>>>>  8-( ..better luck next time..
    

    >> Fiesta Seaspray
    
    That's a rusty little number :^)
    
    Gary.

    Re .120
    
    I didn't mean that anyone who doesn't buy a Ford is an MCP , it just
    seems that some guys in the conference are.
    
    I drove my boyfriends Escort for a while but believe me its no fun
    trying to start a car at 7.00am at -20� C. And its even less fun taking
    a screwdriver in order to open some flap in the carrborateur in order
    to get it to start at that temperature. And its worse having to use the
    handbrake to slow down because you can't take your foot off the gas
    because if you do the engine dies and you have to start all over
    again!!!
    
    So we bought an Astra (Opel) but we BOTH decided. Since I pay half then
    I have 50% say in the matter. Equal rights on both sides!!
    
    Therese
    
    

    
    At least you know where you stand with an MCP as opposed to one of those
    cowering namby pamby male (by gender only) feminist types.
    
    I can honestly say that the worst car I've ever driven was a Vauxhaull
    Vectra, but then it was a diesel and the only diesel I've had a go in.
    
    Chris
    

    
    Re .130
    
    UMMM. Not only that, but it must've been the only Vauxhall Vectra in
    the world too! :^)
    
    Re .129
    
    Therese, good for you. I drive a Calibra 'coz I pay for it. So I asked
    my wife what she liked and then bought myself a Calibra! :^) Mandy
    drives a Fiat Uno 45 (because she had virtually no NCB a few years back
    and so couldn't afford a Turbo 16v Quadinjection anything!), but when
    she drives the Calibra, it's often at higher speeds than I drive at...
    
    Many women do have no interest in cars, but there again many men drive
    Fords, too... :^) :^) :^).
    
    Mark

RE:                     <<< Note 1132.129 by BERN02::BYRNE >>>
    
�    I drove my boyfriends Escort for a while but believe me its no fun
�    trying to start a car at 7.00am at -20� C. And its even less fun taking
�    a screwdriver in order to open some flap in the carrborateur in order
�    to get it to start at that temperature. And its worse having to use the
�    handbrake to slow down because you can't take your foot off the gas
�    because if you do the engine dies and you have to start all over
�    again!!!
    
    I realise this is flying in the face of common-sense and all that, I
    mean, the informed opinion in this conference is legendary. Attempting
    to explain to the cogniscenti that Ford's are a tool that fits the
    application rather nicely, where the two are compatible, is a thankless
    task. However; I find it very difficult to believe that anyone could
    blame the symptoms shown in the example above, on the make of the car.
    In fact, I'll go so far as to state that I'm astounded.
    
    Laurie.

    
    Re: .131
    
    Whoops, it was a typo. You all know what I mean anyway, but for those
    who don't, Vauxhall Cavalier == Opel Vectra.
    
    Chris
    

    Any good/bad points about the Ford Escort 1.8i lX 16v,?
    or the Mondao also prices,insurance groups etc...

    I've had the 1.8i 16v LS as a hire car a couple of times recently.  It
    was pleasant and comfortable, no real bad points, except maybe a bit
    'gutless'.  Well, very gutless, esp if compared to the Cavalier 1.8i,
    but not a bad car.
    
    Mikef