Conference terri::cars_uk

>    I think the current standard driving test is ridiculously insufficient
>    preparation for today's driving conditions. 
    
    I don't think that any driving course/test should be regarded as the sole
    source of preparation for driving.  Much of driving expertise comes
    with practice and experience - there is no way that you can hope to 
    simulate this with a vastly-expanded test. 
    
    I have a lot of respect for the UK driving test. Compared with the
    Massachusetts driving test I had to take last year, it is very 
    comprehensive. Remember that including motorway driving in the 
    test wouldn't be feasible for most inhabitants of East Anglia, rural
    Wales, or parts of Scotland. 
    
    That's not to say that there are no bad drivers in the UK (though
    certainly fewer than here in Mass.!) or that a lot of people wouldn't
    gain from taking an advanced test of any flavour.
    
    John
                            

    
    
    Hi,
      If you are thinking of becoming an advanced motorist of any kind,
    the first thing that I would sudjest you do is buy the "Road Craft"
    Manual (available from leading book stores in the U.K.). Read this
    manual and study it. Practise driving the way this describes until
    perfected, throw in a perfect double-de-clutch and then become an
    associate member of the nearest I.A.M.� branch. They will assign
    an observer (trained to high standards) who will teach you to drive
    to the I.A.M. standard. When you are at or above the standard needed
    you will then be put forward to take the test.
    
     All this for 36 pounds sterling (U.K. only).
    
    
      Alan.

    Regarding the reference to taking the DOT test in the middle of Wales.	
    
    I did just that (Bala, Gwynedd in fact).
    
    The Town (V. small town,  1500 population) had one set of traffic
    lights, and those were on a pelican crossing. There were no dual
    carriageways, motorways.. nothing like driving in the South. (plenty of
    hills for starts though!)
    The test was in no way representative of every-day driving. 
    
    The most farcical bit was when the examiner took you to a small
    council estate and asked you to pretend that a small circular island in
    the middle of the estate was a roundabout and to approach it
    accordingly, using the correct signals!!!!  
    
    How's about having a 2 tier test, 12 months apart and in-between you
    can drive on your own but must display I-plates (I=inexperienced)?????
    
    Huw. (I.A.M. motorcyclist member) 

    With regard to .1 , I found the standard of driving in the US far
    better than the UK . Very impressive lane discipline, and they even
    appear to pay attention to speed limits.
    
    That includes rush-hour driving in Boston !
    
    Mike Day
    

I did the RoSPA advanced driver's course, mainly 'cos someone got wind that the
course was on at the time that I was getting interested.  The RoSPA deal is
similar to IAM.  The course costs around 12 pounds - this is really a series of
lectures based around Roadcraft (the police driving manual).  Then, if you 
want, you get assigned a tutor and begin trundling around the roads learning.
After a while you take your test.  This costs 26 pounds the first time (6 pounds
thereafter).  Unlike the IAM test, it does not last for life and it is graded.
How long it lasts depends on the grade.  Grades 1 and 2 last 3 years, and grade
3 lasts one year.  I believe that the RoSPA test is a bit more thorough.  RoSPA
think that the fact that you have to re-take your tests makes you maintain your
driving standard throughout your driving career, I guess it makes sense, bad
habits are easy to gain.  For me, the whole process took around 9 months, the
Reading RoSPA course starts in January, the lectures are held at the University.

Although I got a lot out of the RoSPA course, I think that I got more from 
driving with Bill Betts.  He's a very keen driver (of an MR2) and is a member of
HPC (the High Performance Car Club).  Their training, although expensive, is
of the highest standard.  I think that Bill, in our lunchtime forays, tended to
teach me HPC, which has a more progressive approach to driving than RoSPA or
IAM.

I'd recommend either RoSPA or IAM (they have the same aims and similar 
standards) and after that, well, over to you Bill...

Dave

>>This costs 26 pounds the first time 

cost is actually �12 per year associate member, this includes the test fee,
lectures etc.

discounts for Roadcraft & the Highway code available too.


...art

Thanks.

Does anyone have addresses for RoSPA and IAM?
Does IAM stand for Institute of Advanced Motorists?

No-one's mentioned the DoT / HMSO book "Driving" (the one they tell you to buy
when you apply for your ordinary driving test).  What level of book is this, or
is it "RoadCraft" under a different name?

I'll go into Smiths at lunchtime and see if they've got RoadCraft...

Scott.

i've a copy of 'Driving' much of it is quite basic stuff, but does have a lot
of info on positioning, parking, reversing type stuff

i'll bring it in tomorrow if you want a look

...art

The 12 pounds for RoSPA is for joining, the test is a further 26 pounds, the
test fee includes next year's membership (ie the year after the one in which
you take your test).

Dave

I can't find RoadCraft anywhere in Reading.  Is it an HMSO book?
Anyone know a shop that sells it?

Scott

I bought my second copy from Smiths in Reading - I'd "lost" my first, of course
I found it after I bought the second one.  Alternatively, try Blackwells (out
of town towards Mothercare, go past M. a couple of shops and there you are).

Dave

Smiths haven't got it; the lady at the counter looked on their microfiche
catalogue and said it wasn't there so they don't stock it.

Couldn't find it in the "Transport" section on the HMSO shelves in Blackwells;
also couldn't find anyone to ask whether they did have it!

I'll go back to them both again tomorrow...

Scott.

    
    Scott,
        I purchased a copy from WH Smiths last thursday lunchtime.
    I found it on the wooden shelves in the driving section.
    If it's any help the book is about 8 inches high and .25 inches
    thick and light blue in colour (paper back).
    
    This was my third copy, and like the other 2 copies it has been
    borrowed by another budding motorist....
    
    
    
      Alan..
    

I looked on the shelf before asking the assistant, but couldn't find it.  I
assume it's title is "Road Craft" and that this is printed on the cover?

If I find it tomorrow, I'll offer their staff lessons on using Microfiche...

There's a book called "Motorcycling Road Craft".  I take it this is a similar
book aimed at motorcyclists?

Incidentally, is the "Driving" section in a different part of the shop to the
"Motoring" section?  Maybe I was looking in the wrong place?

If anyone else wants a copy, give me �2.50 (I think that's what someone said it
costs) before tomorrow lunchtime and I'll buy lots of them...

Perhaps the intelligence required to find the book is part of the test for
Advanced Drivers?

There's a version for motorcyclists with pictures of bikes instead of cars, the
book has a blue cover and is about a quarter inch thick and about 6" by 8" in
size (A5?).

Happy hunting...

Dave

Went into Smiths this morning, found an assistant who'd heard of it; she told me
it's out of stock and they'd have it in a couple of weeks.

Went into Blackwells, found an assistant.  She went "out the back" somewhere and
came back with a pile of them to replenish the empty shelf.

It looks interesting...

Scott

    
    
    
     If you managed to find Road Craft for motorcycles then you were
    in the correct place. The Road Craft for cars should have been about
    10 mooks to the left, between the 2 large Advanced Driving books...
    
      or thats where they were...
    
    
      Alan.
    
     ps. yes the price is 2.50..
    

    After taking the defensive driving course run by digital, I sat
    in the passenger seat with my wife, and I was absolutely gob-smacked
    by her driving. She drives a lot more than I do, a daily commute
    run, Reading--->Slough and back, weekly journeys to Cambridge etc..
    What amazed me was the aggression...
    
    So I went and got RoadCraft for her. It is the most unreadable book
    I've ever come across. Perhaps I was expecting something as well
    written as Driving..., nevertheless, in my opinion, it is not
    persuasive, or influential, the descriptions of the techniques can
    not be followed simply by reading..., really rather a turgid book.
    
    Waste a money, IMHO.
    
    -Shantanu

    
    
    It really is quite a useful book, just like the Highway Code. But,
    just like most standards, it is rather bland and concentrates on
    what you ought to do, rather than how to do it.
    
    Roadcraft is the definitive reference manual, but it isn't a very
    good book to learn from.
         
    Bi||.
    

Yes RoadCraft does strike me as being a bit bland; not the sort of book to sit
by the fire and read on long winter evenings.
But then it's not meant to be.  It is a functional book, and gets its message
across in plain straightforward English.  I think it's very readable, and I've
learnt some useful things from it within three hours of purchasing it.

Re .18, it's not meant to be "persuasive (sp?) or influential".  It assumes the
driver *wants* to follow sensible advice, so just gives this: if you didn't want
the advice you wouldn't have bought the book!
I haven't read it all yet (I'm at work, so I've spent most of the morning
catching up on NOTES :-) but the bits I have read I think I can follow just by
reading (I could always refresh my memory by looking up a technique while on the
move halfway through a manouevre! ;-)

It's not a case of read the book, and instantly drive perfectly; better to read
a bit, practice a bit until the technique comes naturally, and so on, IMHO...

Scott.

    Hi everyone,
    
    I haven't looked in here for a while or I would have mentioned this
    before:
    
    I regularly 'chat' with three or four traffic cops on a BBS (public
    Bulletin Board System).
    
    One of them told me that there is a new version of Roadcraft due
    out soon.  Now what 'soon' means I don't know, but if anyone's
    interested I'll see if I can find out from him.
    
    Cheers
    Marc
    
    
    

    
    Hello all,
    
    Note 974 is a discussion on Roadcraft. It is the Police Drivers
    Manual and it has been withdrawn, but, is still the bible used by
    the police, IAM, Rospa etc untill the new version is published.
    Any news on this, from the inside,  would be most welcome.
    As regards to the base note - The way I prepared for the IAM test
    was to join the Basingstoke Group of the IAM. The cost is #6 per
    year. For this you get unlimited "observed runs", which means going
    out with a trained observer who will help you to get up to the standard
    required to pass the IAM test that is still based on Roadcraft.
    Copies are still available but will go out of print eventually.
    Another way to get extra tuition on driving (for free this time)
    is to enrole for a Police run "Better driving course".  Hampshire
    police run them several times a year and includes  four evening
    lectures and a demmo in a squad car. Details can be had from any
    Hampshire (I don't know about other counties) police station.
    I hope this helps.
    
    Ian.
     

    
    re.18
        At the beginning of the Road Craft manual it specifically states
    that practise *will* be needed to perfect the explained driving
    technique.
    FWIW, it will take an average Traffic officer 2 months of practice,
    thats every day for 2 months intensive training. No one becomes
    a good driver over night.
    re.20
        Reading while driving through a manouver will take your mind
    off the hazards that are in the area and probably cause more mistakes
    than you may usually make (IMHO).
    re.22
        Road Craft has been withdrwn from print already, the changes
    that will be made are guaranteed to be 'cosmetic' and not change
    the overall driving technique.
    
    
      Alan. 

Errr... it was a joke!!!

I would not read (RoadCraft or anything else) while driving!!!

Neither would I take hands off the wheel to:
  ...comb my hair
  ...answer the phone / make a call (I wouldn't have a phone in the car anyway)
and so on, which seem increasingly popular "driving techniques" today.

Scott

a friend of mine took his first (standard) driving test 5 weeks ago,
he failed this before he had travelled 100metres. When asked to do a left turn
he swung the car to the opposite (rhs) side of the road as he was making
the turn. This left him in the path of an oncoming police car. Fortunately
they did not collide (but stopped inches apart). Two irate policemen and a 
walk home later he re-applied, took & passed his test on Saturday.

He tells me that he is entitled to TWO years no claims bonus since he passed
using BSM, and their tuition/passes are highly rated.

maybe he's restricted to a particular ins. company (that charge lots anyway).

seems like a dodgy thing to do?!

why bother with advanced lessons when BSM 'have it now', and are churning out
brill drivers.... I think not...


...art

Swinging to the right when turning left?  Nearly creaming a Police car?  Doesn't
sound like they're churning out brill drivers to me...

Dave

Everything I've ever heard about BSM suggests they are a bunch of cowboys (and
cowgirls, so as not to be accused of sexism!).  They do correctly say that more
people pass with BSM than with any other company, but only 'cos they're
infinitely larger than any other company.  I think it's also true that less
people pass first time with BSM than on average.

Which insurance company rates them so highly?  Not one for which BSM are sole
brokers by any chance?

High insurance premiums for new drivers discourage them from using powerful cars
they can't handle, and is a good thing.  BSM are being very irresponsible (par
for the course for them, I think) by getting round this.

Scott.

BTW, before I knew much about them, I booked a lesson from BSM; the instructor
went to the wrong place at the wrong time!  They make you pay in advance for a
course of lessons and I had a load of hassle getting my money back despite it
being their fault.  I went elsewhere after that and have never regretted it.

    
    FWIW, I had several lessons with BSM in Reading. My instructor was
    great, always on time, always at the right place. I paid for each
    lesson immediately after I had had it. This all took place 1 1/2 years
    ago, so things may have changed. It's all a matter of luck methinks.
    
    Cheers, Richard

    There was a short snippet within some program I have never seen before
    and cannot even remember the name of that my wife taped for me
    recently. It was basically about one particular police force who give
    their drivers training on anti-terrorist techniques while driving
    visiting dignitaries around. They used one of those "skid-pan"
    attachments to a Maestro and lots of marker cones on a sort of airfield
    "circuit". Interesting thing was that the Chief Bigwig slated RoadCraft
    for being out of tune with "uptodate driving practices", the main
    example he gave being crossed-over hands on the wheel. He said that you
    just cannot change direction quickly enough with the shuffle technique
    so it was hands-all-over-the-place with him!
    
    I heard recently that RoadCraft was undergoing a total revamp but a
    recent note suggested only "cosmetic changes". What's real?
    
    Colin

    
    I haven't seen the programme, but I've heard of the man you are
    talking about. This is how I heard it.....
    
      The commissioner in chief at the Hendon Police Driving College
    is under the belief that police drivers should be taught to drive
    like formular one racing drivers, straight arm steering etc. This
    man has a few racing drivers and racing schools advising him.
    FWIW
      This man (who's name I can't remember) has never driven a patrol
    car in a pursuit/chase situation. He is lobbying for Road Craft
    to be changed to a racing style of driving.
    
      The Road Traffic Officers and those that have driven a Patrol
    car for a living are totally against the idea. For race type driving
    the car will need to have the suspension tuned, handling modified
    etc and how many GP/Rally circuits have oncoming traffic, parked
    cars, pedestrians etc.
    
     FWIW,
       During 1989 Police Patrol cars covered inexcess of 600 million
    miles with a total of 6 accidents (an accident covers anything from
    a dent to beyond economical repair).
    
    
    Q: would you let Mike (smitty) Smith to drive his RS500 past your
       childs school in the morning ? (no disregard to Smitty, but the
       British roads are not designed for rallying and no one is capable
       of safely racing along a busy street).
    
       This ismy opinion.....whats yours ??

�    FWIW,
�    During 1989 Police Patrol cars covered inexcess of 600 million
�    miles with a total of 6 accidents (an accident covers anything from
�    a dent to beyond economical repair).

    
    Come on ! You don't expect us to believe that! I'm sorry you have
    got to be mis-informed. In the papers alone there were 8 *serious*
    accidents in *2 months*. And i'm not just talking about 'The Sun'
    & 'The Star' & 'The Mirror' etc...
    
    I personally saw 2 police accidents in August 1989. Not serious
    but still counted as accidents as 'quoted' above. 
    
    I'm not attempting to put down the Police but you honestly can't
    believe that they only have 1 accident per 100 million miles.
    
    Lewis.

Maybe the six accidents figure was six accidents proven not to be the fault of
the police car involved?  Considering how hard it is to successfully prosecute
the police, getting them to admit liability for an accident is probably just as
difficult, hence the apparently low figure.

Scott.

    
    re.31.
       You are indeed correct, I should have been refering to 1988.....
    
    re 32.
       if you were to accidentally dent the back bumper of a patrol
    car then that would constitute an accident, against that officer.
    
    
     Alan
    

    re: .30
    
    i wouldn't let "smitty" drive a 2cv6 across a deserted areodrome...!!
    

    The crossed-over technique in a racing car is OK because the steering
    arrangement is so designed as to only require about one full turn from
    lock to lock. Therefore, you never get into the situation where you
    require more lock than you have on with your arms crossed over (which
    is the reason why the "shuffle" technique is preferred by the police
    as most road cars require more steering lock than do racing cars).
    
    After a bit of time gettiong used to it, I am comfortable with the
    shuffle technique for almost all road situations, the only time I use
    cross-over arms is when negotiating parked car chicanery in relatively
    narrow, twisty, confined "backstreets" at relatively low speed.
    
    Colin

    
    Hi!
    Last weekend I did a "basic Skid Control Course" with Safty First
    of Aldershot. They use the hydraulicly operated skid car that all
    police forces, as well as the Army, are or will be using for "skid
    training. The instructor told us that the reason that Roadcraft
    has been withdrawn is directly due to experience with the "skid
    car". What they found was that, and I can confirm this, The push/pull
    steering technique is not fast enough in SKID conditions. Push/pull
    is not "wrong" in normal driving, he said. I find that the car is
    under much better control under push/pull. Apart from steering,
    what is just as important is the way the wheel is held. One finger
    hooked around the spoke with the other one rest on the window.......
    or holding a phone when traveling at 100 mph stuck in lane three!!!
    
    I passed the course and I will be going for another in a while.
    
    
    Ian.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
   Ian.
    

     R:last few. My ride-on lawnmower does lock-to lock on one half turn of
    the steering wheel!
    ....Ray
    

My son (18) passed his test the other week and insured his car (a Maxi) through
Swinton for less than I could insure it with him as a named driver!  The 
company gave him a 10% introductory discoount off an amazingly low premium of
under #250!  He's a student too .....

Many moons ago (more than I care to remember) I took the AA/BSM advanced
driving course (is it still available?) and then the IAM test.  I was driving
a Ford Corsair at the time.  After passing both tests I changed my TPFT cover
at #32 per year for fully comp at under #15 per year.  This was when I was 21.
Oh yes, I paid #36 per year rates on the house I was buying ......

Brian	(I_LOVE_THE_POLL_TAX_COS_IT'S_SAVING_ME_#1500_A_YEAR!!)

Does anyone have an address / phone no. for the IAM as I can't find it anywhere!
Scott

The phone number for the IAM was 01 994 4403, dont know what it is now though !

  Barrie.

If you are interested in taking the IAM test, you really need to contact the 
local group, which for Reading is the Thames Valley Group.

The Membership Secretary is Allan Machon, 15 Calder Close, Maidenhead, SL6 7RS,
phone 0628 23894

The group meets on the last Thursday of the month at the Cox Green Community 
Centre at 20:00.

Stuart

    Couldn't find a better place...
    
    Reading a newspaper over a train traveller's shoulder I think I read
    that the IAM was calling for a rise in speed limits to 80mph. Any
    member have any further details such as which roads and the expected
    benefits?
    
    Andrew

    It was also on Radio (4 I think)

    Motorways. 
    
    Huw. (IAM member)