Conference terri::cars_uk

    And today sees the start of the 91 winter silly season.
    
    The number of cars that passed me on the motorway this morning with
    rear fog lights blazing when visibility was a good 200/300 yards. I 
    thought it an offence, with a fine of up to �1000, to use these lights 
    when visibility was in excess of 100 yards.
    
    I'd make the use of these lights illegal at ANY time. 
    
    The average use of them seems to be I've switched my rear fog lights 
    on so it means I can continue to drive at a speed that is probably 
    too fast for the situation anyway.
    
    If these lights were not used then maybe people might be forced to
    drive at reasonable speed in fog as the wouldn't be able to see the
    car in front so soon.
     
    Rich
    

    Its funny you should mention this Rich. I have been thinking the same.
    
    I was going through the highcode with someone the other day I noticed
    something I'd not realised before. In the section on headlamps and the
    section on fog lights, the statement is the same. Its goes something
    like ...should only be used when visibilty is seriously reduced (less
    than 100 metres).
    
    This applies to headlights, front foglights, and rear fog lights.
    
    I always thought  it sensible to use headlights when the visibilty is
    poor. Not necessary seriously reduced. Whereas rear fogs should only be
    used as stated (visibility less than 100 metres). 
    
    A lot of motorists see a wisp of mist and on goes their rear fogs for
    the rest of the journey. It makes me mad. 
    
    Roy.

    
    Well I'm in Newbury and I was quite happy to see these lights in use
    today (had mine on at times too). Visibility at times was well under 
    100 yds (although I thought the distance specified by law was something
    vague like 'poor visibility'?).
    
    Mark

    I agree Mark, it was necessary to use them _at_times_ as you say.
    The problem is when they are left on.
    
    Is there a difference between what the 'law' says and what the highway
    code says ?
    
    Roy

    Part of the highway code is posted in 1365.51 by BRUMMY::BELL.
    
    The relevant bit is reproduced here...
    
        d  use your headlamps or front fog lamps at any time
        when visibility is _seriously_ reduced, that is, generally,
        reduced to a distance of less than 100 metres.
    
        REAR FOG LAMPS
        120  You must not use your rear fog lamps unless
        visibility is _seriously_ reduced, that is, generally, reduced
        to a distance of less than 100 metres. Do not use them
        simply because it is dark or raining or misty.

	The law says that what the highway code says is the way to drive,
	anything else is wrong.

	As for fog lights, I agree entirely (with knobs on for front fogs).
	
	Here's a query, do the same people who will not turn their lights on
	at dawn and dusk turn their fog lights on as soon as there's a light
	spray or there's a wisp of fog?
	
	Dave

    I must spend more time on the motorways flashing other people with the
    fog lights on! It seems some people leave them on ALL the time as soon
    as August is finished!
    
    Greg
    
    (and they all seem to stay in the middle lane...)

    Personally, I fail to see what possible contribution these lights make
    to road safety, with the exception perhaps, of light traffic in heavy
    fog. I can think of many more reasons for banning them, than I can for
    keeping them.
    
    Even if the visibility is less than 100 yards, if the traffic is moving
    slowly, and closer than 100 yards, they should be OFF. People who leave
    them on when the visibility is good drive me up the wall. There seems
    to be a trend here in Belgium, for people to use them when it's
    raining, however heavy the traffic, another receipe for disaster. It's
    these wally's that are probably behind a proposal to limit rear fogs to
    one light.
    
    And as for people who sit in stationary traffic with their foot on the
    brake, and their new all-singing-all-dancing high-level brake light
    shining right in my eyes..... ARRRRGGGGHHH!
    
    Laurie.

    

    All of this gets me really wound up too. If the police wanted to
    do something useful, they'd sit at the exits to Mways and fine all
    those headdicks leaving the Mway with their rear/front fogs on. 
    But when you want a copper of course, you can never bloody find
    one.
    
    In Germany the use of the third brake light is illegal. Let's hope
    the EEC bunglecrats impose this across Europe. In the meantime,
    I can recommend a small hammer!

    Hanging's too good for them!

What, no mention of front fog lamps? Agreed, I HATE people who
drive with rear fog lamps on, especially when it's raining. But I also
get annoyed at front fog lamp users. Not when it's foggy of course,
but those who drive with their fog lamps on instead of headlamps.
And why is it always Astra and Manta GTE drivers??


Ian

        
    The reason that Astra GTE drivers drive with their fogs on in
    poor visibility is coz their headlights are $hit. I know. I've
    got one. 

    I've had several other Astras on hire too and they're were all
    as bad or even worse. How Vauxhall can sell a car that does
    135mph, but whose headlights are useless at 50 amazes me. I'd
    also like to drone on about how they have the cheek to sell a
    car whose windscreen wipers won't wipe the screen at anything
    over 100. They just flap around in the airflow. That's all they
    do! 

    Anyone know anything about/had a twin headlamp conversion done
    for the Astra. As mine is a leased wreck, it's a conversion I'd
    need to be able to reverse at the end of the lease.
     
        

    Everytime I see a note/article about dazzling by rear fog lights I end
    up feeling a little puzzled.  Simply put - RED FOG LIGHT DON'T DAZZLE.
    
    The human eye is not particularly sensitive to red, you can stare at a
    bright red light for as long as you want and not see spots when you
    turn away.  Why do you think red was chosen for brake-lights in the
    first place?  Because it does not affect your night vision (that's why
    ship interior are illuminated with red light at night).
    
    I didn't get where I am today (desk sharing, damn it!) by being dazzled
    by red light.
    
    Mike B.
    

	I think the problem with rear Fog Lamps, when there is no FOG,
	is that they appear just like Brake lights.

	Graham

>>                    <<< Note 412.37 by WARNUT::BIDDULPHM >>>
>>                           -< Dazzle, what dazzle? >-

>>    Everytime I see a note/article about dazzling by rear fog lights I end
>>    up feeling a little puzzled.  Simply put - RED FOG LIGHT DON'T DAZZLE.
    
    I Don't care what you call it TECHNICALLY, a FOCUSED red light 
    	a	Causes discomfort if close (left on in traffic queues are
    		worst)
    	b	In rain, the water droplets scatter and diffuse the intense
    		light casuing multiple images and confusion. Actually
    		distracting or obscuring real stop lights, and making it
    		difficult to determine what's going on ahead.
    
    Does that clarify what people mean?. 
    Richard
    

    RE: .39
    
    Well said. That's it exactly. Bright lights of any description,
    especially close-up, in traffic, are not pleasant to look into.
    
    Bright front lights, are distracting.
    
    Laurie.

    Re. Astra and Mante GT/E vehicles using front fog lamps
    
    A bit of defense for the Manta here, most of them didn't get
    front fog lamps.  I always find the worst culprits to be
    the XR/RS brigade (Ford gives you more -- lights).
    
    Everything they do, they do for you !!!
    
    
    
    Seriously though, fog lamps are fitted as extras to the 'higher
    spec' cars more often, so those are the sort of cars you are
    going to see with them blazing when they shouldn't be...
    
    J.R.
    
    PS - sorry to say it, but this rat-hole has been delved into before
    (I got onto my soapbox last time around, agreeing with recent comments).

    What I was trying to point out, in as calm a fashion as possible, is
    that red lights do not dazzle (focused or not).  Go and try a little
    experiment - turn your fog light on, go up to it and stare, look away,
    any problems with your vision?  I doubt it.  By the way, I wasn't
    calling it anything TECHNICALLY, I was talking basic BIOLOGY.
    
    Regards,
    
    Mike (who has perfectly normal eyes [but not anything else])
    

Re - .27

Well, they dazzle ME - that is they give me the same discomfort that I get when
some wally comes towards me with his high beams on - in other words they put
too much light into my eyes, which hurts!

Your mileage may vary (low gain eyes or better ALC?)

Dave

    
    Re .42
    
    Certainly looked foggy enough to use 'em to me this morning, but 
    I can sympathise when conditions are good. Some people just forget 
    to look at their dashboard when driving!
    
    Mark
    
    PS If Astra lights are rubbish, then Manta drivers have an even better
    excuse! My Cavalier coupe often showed over 110 mph on the clock, but
    at night on twisty roads was often overtaking my 1.1 Escorts and 850
    Minis!
    
    PPS If the Astra conversion (from Irmscher) is anything like the Manta
    one, the unit just replaces the rectangular lights and would be easy to
    swap back later on.

>    	b	In rain, the water droplets scatter and diffuse the intense
>    		light casuing multiple images and confusion. Actually
>    		distracting or obscuring real stop lights, and making it
>    		difficult to determine what's going on ahead.
    
    I can see a bit of contradiction here.  If you cannot determine what's
    going on ahead then you are going too fast or too close.  For example
    if you have poor headlights whilst driving in the dark, you wouldn't
    drive as fast as you would during the day,  would you ?
    
    If rear fog lights on cars in front of you annoy you then don't drive
    so close, well I thought it was a simple solution.
    
>    	a	Causes discomfort if close (left on in traffic queues are
>   		worst)
    
    Fair enough.  This is definite misuse of the fog lights cos if the car
    in front can see there is a car behind there is no point having them
    on.  If you are stationary either stop so close that you can't see the
    lights or stop a little behind with full beam on.  They might get the
    message and besides, the dazzle is lessened by the sight of the whole
    of the car in front being lit up.
    
    TP

    Trevor,
    
    I think the problem is that if you suddenly see these fuzzy red lights
    you don't know if they are brake lights or not. Potentially leading to
    a nasty accident.
    
    Greg

    I'm still not convinced, if a set of fuzzy red lights suddenly appeared
    in front of you and they hadn't just joined the road then you are still
    going too fast.  Didn't that judge person at the inquest into the M4
    disaster try and remind everyone of the law in the highway code which
    goes on about the fact that you should drive so that you can stop
    within the distance you can see to be clear.  Something I try and stick
    to.
    
    Even though this opinion might appear to be contradictory to all these
    other flaming notes, I still share the same view that the rear fog
    lights are misused and something should be done about it and all that. 
    It's just that I try and find ways of not being annoyed by them
    (anything for a peaceful drive) and not getting worked up enough to put
    a reply into the CARS_UK notes file.....  aarrgghhh 
    
    Trevor

    Pure red light may not dazzle. But....
    
    I don't believe red fog lights produce anything like pure red light.
    It's white light with a poxy cheap bit of red plastic over it.

    Richard.        

    Anyone who drives in town traffic with fog lights on is either stupid
    or asleep. I can't see that even in fog there is any need at all for
    fog lights if you are in bumper to bumper traffic. I see it frequently
    in London and find it a pain in the behind. As for it dazzling, I don't
    care what you want to call it , in slow moving traffic it for sure
    intensly anoying to have this intense red light shinning in my eys. The
    other thing is I'm never sure right away if the car in front is driving
    on his brakes or got those infernal lights on, bloody dangerous if you
    ask me.
    
    Garry

I've always applied a simple rule to fog lights: when I wish the guy in front 
had his on, then I turn mine on.

Surely if everybody adopted this sort of rule there wouldn't be a problem?

/. Ian .\

	Well, in my car, if I had the rear fog lights on and I then hit a nice
	 clear patch, I would have to remember that I had switched them on,
	 because the little, and I mean LITTLE, indicator light would not
	 be seen.

	This is a Rover 214 by the way.

	I suggest you try the fog switch in light conditions, in a car park,
	 not on the road !! and see how easily you can spot the indicator
	 light behind the steering wheel,(usually).

	In most cars I have driven, I cannot think of any that has a nice bright
	 indicator light saying - HI I'M A FOG LIGHT SWITCHED ON.

	This is not a defence, merely an observation.
	 

    Well my Renault has a very bright orange light on the dash in line
    with about the 40 mph mark on my speedo.
    
    Greg

    
    Re .51
    
    True, but if you put 'em on you should switch 'em off when you stop.
    
    Re .52
    
    Renault do seem to do this better than some. FIAT are also good at
    providing visible warning lights.
    
    Mark

    re .48
    
    What's the difference, technically?
    
    mike

    Re: 0.50
    
    Absolutely. 
    
    That's what I'd say. And that's what I do. I don't give a
    monkeys what the weather is doing. I look at other vehicles, and decide
    based on what I can/can't see, and if I'm dazzled (sorry! Discomfited)
    by any fogs which are on.
    
    Dougie
    

    One of the main problems for car designers is that if you have a nice
    bright they_cant_fail_to_notice_that_even_in_bright_sunlight fog light
    on light then it can be extremely annoying when it's patch black
    outside.  Solutions to this add cost.  One of the cars which has an
    extremely brigh fog light warning light in (was) in minis - several
    minis that I have used/been in have the bulb in the switch removed to
    cut down on the distraction!
    
    Possible soultions could be - 
                 
    1. Put the warning light where it is always pretty dark (but visible!)
    in the dash. 
    
    2. Variable brightness of the warning light - when it's bright outside
    have a very bright warning, dark outside, much dimmer.
    
    3. Electronic switches that turn the fog lights off when the ignition
    is switched off - have to be manually turned on again after getting in
    the car again.
     
    Rob            

    
    Re .last
    
    I'd be really impressed if the light dimmer for the instrument 
    binnacle controlled the brightness of all the warning lights.
    It would probably be too sensible for the manufacturers to 
    implement this though.
    
    A Triumph 2000 I used to own had a dimmer box in the boot
    that measured the amount of light outside. As the amount of
    daylight diminshed it would dim the rear lights. It seemed
    to be connected to the brake/side and indicator lights. I 
    thought it was nice touch.
     
    Richard.
    

    
    At last! The suggestion that always has seemed too reasonable to be
    implemented:
    
    "3. Electronic switches that turn the fog lights off when the ignition
    is switched off - have to be manually turned on again after getting in
    the car again."
    
    For instance, Golfs' rear wipers operate on this principle - switch it
    on each time you start up - *if you need it*!
    
    There are two problems - forgetting to switch off after it *has* been
    foggy (solution above!), and the lack of awareness of when these lamps
    should be used at all. I'm afraid there's only one answer to the second
    problem - off with their goolies!
    
    Oh_so_tolerant_Mike

    re : .36
    
    You mean you take your GTE up to and over 100 when you need to
    use the wipers? You wouldn't catch me doing 100 in my GTE in the
    wet, you naughty naughty person. :-)  I agree the wipers and lights
    are useless though. And while I'm griping, the warning light for
    fogs on Astras is obscured by the steering wheel, so it is quite easy 
    to leave them on. Not that I do of course. You should after all be 
    concentrating more if you need your fogs, and if the poor conditions
    pass you should be thinking "Aha, the poor conditions are passed,
    time to turn off the fogs".
    
    
    Jerome.

Most modern vehicles use the same idea for the heated windows - drops out when
ignition turned off/engine stops.

But can we really expect car manufacturers to add somthing useful to a car that
only costs a couple of pounds - they couldn't justify a �250 price increase,
so they won't bother unless it becomes a legal requirement - some hope!

Dave

Gosh, worra lorra heat....

A couple of points from way back...... it's a fallacy that red light is any 
better/worse for your vision.  Mariners traditionally use red glass screens 
over the cabin lights at night simply to reduce the overall amount of light.
Nothing magic about the colour at all, the tales about it "sensitising
your night vision" are just so much scuttlebutt...;-)


Hey, yes, let's ban everything that people don't use properly ....fog lights, 
they can go for a start, but why stop there ?   Lots of people don't use
headlights properly, either, lets do away with them .   And seatbelts, 
people don't use them right, have them out, too, and as for brakes, well......

You see my point ?     Rather than campaigning to get rid of something which
can potentially make life easier and safer, why not campaign to make sure 
it gets used *correctly* ?  A little driver education, perhaps ?
Have you written to the DofE, or T, or whichever ?  I'm sure they don't
read this conference, and most of us seem to be in agreement that there is a
problem, but the solution is out of our hands....so why are we yelling at each
other about it ?


Ian

Re: .51

>	In most cars I have driven, I cannot think of any that has a nice bright
>	 indicator light saying - HI I'M A FOG LIGHT SWITCHED ON.

I can.  The Mini Mayfair (large yellow light on switch) and the Vauxhall Nova
(smaller yellow bulb/light exposed when switched on). I have no complaints
about either !

Re: those replies talking about front fogs on Vauxhalls.

I think the problem may be that Vauxhall don't call them front fogs.  They 
call them "driving lights".

    Re .59    
�    You mean you take your GTE up to and over 100 when you need to
�    use the wipers? You wouldn't catch me doing 100 in my GTE in the
�    wet, you naughty naughty person. :-)  
    
    Not so naughty....The roads don't need to be wet! You catch an awful 
    lot of insects in the dry at 130 which need a lot of screenwash/wipe 
    to remove :-)

    Re .last
�I think the problem may be that Vauxhall don't call them front fogs.  They 
�call them "driving lights".

    In which case we should do 'em under the trade descriptions act.
    "Driving candles" would be more appropriate!
    
    
    Richard.
    
    

Re: .64

>                        -< 'Bug'ger all use... geddit? >-

Of course they have a use....they dazzle other drivers !

    RE: Front Fogs versus Drivers.......
    
    If they're mounted below the bumber, e.g. below headlight level, and
    can be used without the headlights, then technically they are Fog
    Lights, and can only be used in conditions of Fog or Falling Snow.
    
    If they are mounted above the bumper, e.g. at headlight level, they are
    Driving Lights, and theoretically should only be operable when the
    headlights are on Main beam.
    
    Irrespective of their mounting, a lamp with a wide beam, and flat
    cut-off is often referred to as a Fog Light, ones with either a Long
    Range Broad beam or a long range Spot beam are equally at home as
    Driving lights.
    
    However, I guess you can mount any of them in either position and call
    them what you want, provided you use them within the regulations (which
    I may r may not have remembered 100% accurately)!!
    
    What fascinates me is that I have yet to come across manufacturer fitted
    Fog or Driving lights that are at all useful in either circumstance. I
    believe most of them would be considered an offence under the trade
    descriptions act!
    
    JK
    
    

    Belatedly coming back to  
    
    <<< Note 412.45 by KERNEL::PARRY "Trevor Parry" >>> 
    		-< Another view >- 
    
    >> I can see a bit of contradiction here.  If you cannot determine
    >> what's going on ahead then you are going too fast or too close.  For
    >> example if you have poor headlights whilst driving in the dark, you
    >> wouldn't drive as fast as you would during the day,  would you ?
    
    >> If rear fog lights on cars in front of you annoy you then don't drive
    >> so close, well I thought it was a simple solution.
    >>
    
    I said AHEAD, not IN FRONT of me. I'm talking visible distance. In fact
    the further away the vehicles are the MORE difficult it is to
    differentiate fog lights from brake lights. And you can't necessarilly
    see the 14th car ahead continuously, so they would keep appearing and
    disapearing, confusing the hell out of you!!!!!!
    
    I am invariably the car with the biggest gap in front of it on the
    motorway or road.
    
    Richard

    
    Re .65
    
�    I am invariably the car with the biggest gap in front of it on the
�    motorway or road.
 
    At least until some pratt pulls in front of you with their rear fogs 
    on ;-)   

    Re. Astra twin headlight conversion
    
    As Mark suggested Irmscher do do a kit. You fit it yourself (so
    I guess the conversion is reversible), it consists of wires, relay
    and lights and costs �200. Ouch!
    
    
    

    �   <<< Note 412.58 by KERNEL::ROE "Three Sixteen..Know what I mean John?" >>>
    
    Not sure that I do.
    
    J.R.

    thanks Roy. It really *is* a dazzling reference (just so moderators
    won't think this is irrelevant to the basenote!)
    
    Mike

    John who?
    
    Mark

    Mark, I thought one is meant to put a smiley when one is being sarcastic ?

    On The Simpsons (Bart etc) somebody held a sign up saying John 3:16.
    
    
    What does this mean?

    Just to continue the rathole, the John 3:16 subject came up in the
    soccer world cup last year where some of the crowd were displaying
    a banner with this written on it. It's something to do with the
    bible but I can't remember what. A book in the old/new testament
    perhaps. Do we have any religous people out there who can put our
    curiosity at rest ?
    
    
    Jerome.

    John 3:16
    
    "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that
    whosoever believeth in him may have everlasting life."
    
    Andy.

    
    Sorry. You've lost me now!!! Are we to take it that God and his son
    do or do not drive around with their fog lights on in good weather?
    
    Mark (Don't see how it applies to the Simpson's either, unless the
    writers are claiming that Homer is God!)
    
    

    Sorry folks, I didn't realise that one's personal name was expected to
    be taken as relevant to a particular note!
    
    I suppose there is a connection between God and those that *think* that
    they're god eg  middle-lane-hoggers, rear-fog dazzlers,
    cross-line-plonk.. er I mean.. -parkers to name a few!
    
    Peace be with you..... :-)

    
    A tenuous link, well maintained! :^)
    
    I'd say that's rat-holed this repetition to a standstill. Well, done! 
    
    Mark

    
    Cannot agree that fog lights do not dazzle -- at least they dazzle me.
    
    The only effective answer I have found is some xtra light from a pair 
    of 130w spare headlights -- reduces the dazzle by reducing the
    contrast.  Occasionally a long blast on the horn & hitting the red 
    triangle for the flashers helps to indicate some discomfort, when
    I have just passed one of these selfish/forgetful people. They rarely
    seem to take the hint though ........
    
    Needless to say, all of the solutions are themselves illegal, & do not
    reduce the risk to me of unnecessary hazard -- especially in the wet.
    When I'm on 2 wheels, the options are much reduced -- & there are no
    windscreen wipers to clear my visor......  
    
    

    Well fog lights dazzle (or annoy) me too , and a classic example of
    this happened to me last night on my way home.
    I was on the M26 going into the dreaded coned section when i came up
    behind a new BMW 3 series with its fog lights on. It was about 17.30
    and a fairly clear evening so no need for them what so ever. After
    following for a while i decided enough is enough and gave the car a
    flash of the lights. This usualy only gets one of two reactions..
    1) a finger out of the window
    2) they pull over
    so i wasnt expecting much of a reaction, and i didnt get one either.
    So once we cleared the road works i was going to overtake and flash my
    rear fogs at him.... wrong, he thought i wanted a race and shot off, so 
    i obliged, we wre now exceeding the speed limit slightly but were in a
    bunch of cars travelling at the same speed so i tried something else,
    turning my headlights from dip to sidelights, maybe this will convey a
    message... wrong he shot off again.
    We were now going quite fast again so i decided to give him the full
    beam treatment again and this time i left them on for a while..nothing.
    Then all of a sudden the car slowed and puled over, i pulled along side
    only to see the him turn into a her and she blew me a kiss and waved at
    me !!!!.
    I give up.
    I didnt even attempt to try to tell her she had her fog lights on, she
    was probably driving hubbies new car and only just managed to turn the
    headlights on.
    She was nice though.
     
    Nick.

>    was probably driving hubbies new car and only just managed to turn the
>    headlights on.


sexist....

;-}

    Nice one Nick.
    
    I had a similar thing happen to me a while ago.
    
    I was following a Fiesta through a section of single lane workroads on
    a dual carriageway at night in clear conditions. It was obvious from a
    distance that the Fiesta had the rear fog on. I hoped as I approached
    they would turn it off, there was no fog and the visibilty good.
    
    Alas they did not. The light was so bright that the only way to counter
    this was to put my full beam on. I hoped by doing this they would
    realise and turn it off they did not. So I left full beam on for about
    a mile and when the roadworks ended I overtook and flashed my rear fogs
    a couple of times in the hope they would realise why I had full beam
    on. The only reaction I got was that they then proceeded to leave their
    full beam on. This did not affect me as I was travelling significantly
    faster.
    
    I normally hate flashing at cars as I realise it really winds people
    up. I just wonder in a situation like this and the one Nick described
    whether people realise why they are being flashed and they are too
    proud to react or if they genuinely do not know or care what their
    problem is.
                                                    
    Roy

    
    I suspect they're just too bloody stupid to realise that you might be
    flashing them for a reason.
    
    Despite flashing the Sierra in front of me a great number of times
    (front fogs and beams), he showed absolutely no sign of having seen me
    flash! I can only assume he was driving blindfold!
    
    Mark

	Sierraist !

	Alex :^)

This has nothing to do with foglights, but it's on the same vain of
ignorance, and ignoring lights.

I was once going from London to Liverpool to Leeds, I left the M1, then
hit the M6. The M6 was surprisingly quiet, until there seemed to be a
strange line of traffic in the outside lane. I watched as people would
approach a Fiasco in the outside lane travelling approx 65 mps , flash
beep etc, then give up and pass in the nearside lane.

Well it came to my turn, and I thought, no way am I overtaking on the
inside I'll get the b*gg*r to move over. I tried everything, full beam,
horn, gesticulations, front fogs etc. I swear the old guy never once
looked in his rear view mirror. I eventually overtook on the inside,
giving him a nasty stare. He was looking dead ahead, didn't even glimpse!!

Wish I had a car phone to ring the Police

"Flashing" may be ok, in moderation, but driving for a mile or so on full beam??

Come on, chaps, play the game!  What about the rest of us poor road-users ?

I passed a gent in a Cavlier the other day, with his rear fogs blazing away,
 so, once I'd tucked back into the traffic in front of him, I gave him a 
couple of short flicks of my own rear lights, to attract his attention to
his oversight.   The reward for my public-spiritedness was him putting on 
full beam, spots and fogs and sitting behind me for the next three miles.

In the end, I had to pull off the road to make him go away.

Ian
(wishing I drove a big truck.."Sorry, mate, I was dazzled by this bright light")

    
    My concern from your notes is the apparent rish of turning an
    annoyance into a potentially dangerous situation. It _is_
    annoying when somebody forgets they've left their fog lights
    on; but its downright dangerous to race them, or get into a
    spiral of retaliation.
    
    I guess my point (if there is one) is that its worth thinking
    about the psychological aspects of your actions. If they've
    forgotten their lights, then thats human and you should try not
    to get wound up by it. If they've left their fogs on for some
    other reason, then you aren't going to reform them by flashing
    your lights or jostling to pass them...
    
    William.

    I suppose you could slow down very quickly thus 'boxing' him in behind
    you and not able to pass. Then you could tell him what he was doing
    wrong...
    
    But would you have the nerve? :-)
    
    Richard

    
    Re .91
    
    Which is exactly how it should work. I know that whenever I'm flashed
    I check all the switches on my dash to check I've not left any spurious
    lights on. Like Derek says courtesy (not to mention a bit of common
    sense) goes a long way to making driving less hassle (and, therefore,
    dangerous).
    
    Mark

    How the dickens is someone to know what flashing headlights mean?
    
    According to the highway code.... the ONLY reason for flashing one's 
    headlights is to make someone aware of your presense. 
    
    It does not mean:  switch off your fogs,
    		       move out of the way,
    		       stop,
    		       pull in front of move,
    		       move out in front of me,
    		       You want to go to bed with her (him?)
    
    Huw.

    
    � According to the highway code.... the ONLY reason for flashing one's 
    � headlights is to make someone aware of your presense. 
    
    As in "I'm here and you're dazzling me with your bl**dy brake lights",
    perhaps?
    
    Mark

    
Huw,

Does that mean that if you see someone in front of you turn on his hazard 
warning lights whilst braking (optional) that you will totally ignore that 
because his/her car is still moving, because that isn't in the highway 
code ???


There is a lot of common sense in driving safely, and lot of commonly
understood signals that are not in the highway code, but are of use, and I for
one am glad that there are ways to (mostly) warn other people of various
possible nasties around, and be warned.

It's really rather nice to know that up ahead there is traffic that is 
moving at a speed considerably less than yours, if at all....

    If I'm in the fast-lane traelling at c. 80, and overtaking punters at
    70mph, and some-one flashes to get through, I should if possible let
    them through, despite them being not very nice sort of people. Mind
    you, if you REALLY WIND THEM UP, by, say, slowing down imperceptibly
    (they are obviously in a hurry after all), then maybe these type A
    bottom-crevices will get really worked up and die of a heart attack? I
    mean, we are all mellow type B bodies in here.
    
    This reminds me of an amusing little anectode. I was once in the fast
    lane overtaking a long file of traffic, when a blue sierra came up
    behind me flashing and flashing and flashing. I decided to be seriously
    socially responsible and try let this 90MPH+ car thru. This was
    difficult since the traffic was pretty solid in the middle lane. It was
    tempting to slow down or jab the brakes, but that's the easy way out.
    Anyway, when this Sierra with Tell-tale-ariel-at-the-back went past, it
    turned out to be full off policeman, who acknowledged me pulling over
    with a thumbs up. They were obviously in a terrible hurry to get
    somewhere important.
    
    I'm in a fiendishly good mood at the moment. 
    
    Dougie
    
    long file of traffic, 

	If someone behind me has their front fog lights/extra driving
	lights/macho posing lights on I turn my rear fog lights on...
	this almost invariably gets completely ignored.

	JJ.

    
    JJ, 
    
    You're probably two cars in front of me then! :^)
    
    Mark

    RE .95
    
    Agreed, safe driving is all about common sense. 
    
    If I see someone using signals improperly, I try to the best of my
    knowledge to interpret what they're saying to me and act accordingly;
    this in my book is called anticipation. If I can't interpret, or if I 
    suspect I've mis-interpreted the signals, I back off just in case.
    
    this does not however give me the right to go flashing willy-nilly at
    everybody for mile-long periods. I use headlamp flashing reservedly,
    and then only when I want them to notice me.
    
    Huw

    I was once behind a Police car with lights flashing / siren going etc
    obviously trying to get somewhere in a hurry. It took the car in front
    of the Police car 5 miles of road to notice the Police car. When he did
    he swerved violently whilst decelerating to 50mph and trying to put his
    seat belt on !!!

    
    5 miles is a long way..... 
    was the car fitted with mirrors and was the driver completely deaf ?

    The noise of Radio-1 was quite audible when the car overtook me !
    
    	Rik
    
    PS The Police man was not very patient but there was no other way for
    him to overtake (This was on the A27 and the inside lane was FULL of
    lorries etc)

    I've decided that the most annoying and dangerous driving technique is
    the;
    
    	My exit coming up sometime soon on the roundabout. I'll start
    indicating left in good time. Before the exit before in fact, where
    that man in the pretty Fiesta obviously thinks its safe to pull out.
    
        brigade.
    
    Thank crunchie it's Friday
    

    Even money says that;
    
    When driving home tonight in clear conditions along the M4, the fog,s
    all gone here in Reading, that at least 1 in 5 cars still have their
    foglights left switched on from this a.m.
    
    Rich
    

    
>    When driving home tonight in clear conditions along the M4, the fog,s
>    all gone here in Reading, that at least 1 in 5 cars still have their
>    foglights left switched on from this a.m.
    
Are these the same people who drive in severly restricted visibility with
either no lights on at all or only side/parking lights ?

Like this morning when fog reduced visiblity to rather less than 50 yards (the 
distance at which fog lights should be used) when a large number of cars were 
merrily trundling along with NO LIGHTS AT ALL !!!!!!!!!!

Has anyone else noticed that drivers of "invisible" coloured cars (white, blue, 
black, grey, green)  are the ones most likely to be driving without lights
when lights are *really* needed in poor visiblility ?

       <<< Note 412.105 by NEWOA::ALFORD_J "The intermission fish..." >>>
                    -< hehehehe...if they can't see me... >-

[ ... ]
    
>Has anyone else noticed that drivers of "invisible" coloured cars (white, blue, 
>black, grey, green)  are the ones most likely to be driving without lights
>when lights are *really* needed in poor visiblility ?

    no ...
    
    But I have noticed that some foggies dazzle more than others. In fact,
    some foggies dazzle me even when it is foggy. 
    
    Dougie
    
    

    
    I find it amazing how rear fog lights can increase forward vision. I
    was driving west on the M4 yesterday (17-1) morning and everyone who had 
    their rear fogs on was capable of driving at 80+ when I found 50+
    dangerous.
    
      Alan.
     

Re: .106

>    But I have noticed that some foggies dazzle more than others. In fact,
>    some foggies dazzle me even when it is foggy. 
    
This is beacuse they are incorrectly adjusted.  The law says that the beam
must be angled downwards at 6 degrees below horizontal.  Unfortunately the
offending cars are too new to have a MOT and in any case I don't think it
checks foglight aim.

jb

    Jeremy, I think they are referring to rear fog lights which, in most
    instances, are part of the rear light cluster and NOT adjustable.
    
    PS. Saw a car this morning, STILL got his rear foggy's on! Is this a
    record?
    
    Richard

    
    It wasn't a red Nova saloon by any chance was it ?
    
    Rich
    

    
    Agggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
    
    I feel better now...
    
    
    Why does this happen every time there's pissing rain?  I've lost count
    of the cars with fog lights on in the what is already blinding rain in
    the trek down South this evening.
    
    I don't know if the drivers -
    
       i) really don't know they've got their fog lights on (dozy gits)
                                   
      ii) know but don't give a **** (tossers)
    
     iii) don't know what fog lights are (dozy gits also)
    
      iv) think that 'high intensity' lights are the correct things to
    	  use when it rains (fools)
    
       v) know exactly what they're doing 'cos they think their cars and
    	  therefore themselves look well-'ard because they have more lights
          than anybody else (tossers)
    
    
    Chris.

    Chris
    They believe it's safer! even though the police say it's not, 
    they think, bad visibility oh good i can use my rear fogs.
    as you say , tossers.
    Matt.

    Options 4,3,2 in that order. Here in Belgium, more drivers use rear
    fogs in rain than don't. It drives me crazy, because it's very
    difficult to see them brake.
    
    Laurie.

Well... even after the reading the measured, reasoned and carefully 
considered contributions of .111 and .112 I must say I met a tosser 
yesterday afternoon on the A34 _without_ his high intensity rear 
lights on. I was in the outside lane doing about 60MPH, with a gap of 
what I thought was about 30-40 yards to the car in front (who's high 
intensity lights I could intermittently see through the thick spray 
and rain) when I suddenly realised that a car had moved out of the 
left lane into the gap and for some reason jumped on his brakes. I 
realised this when he was only a few yards in front of me and 
travelling at about 30MPH. Had this tosser had his high intensity 
lights on I would not have needed to change my underwear when I got 
home!

In conditions of heavy rain I am prepared to put up with a bit of 
glare in order to keep my laundry bill in check, but I wish people 
would turn off their rear lights when the conditions are clear!

- John.

re .114

Some would say that it's your fault for "driving on the rear lights" of the car 
in front.  The highway code advises against this...

Fog lamps aren't mandatory on all cars, so you shouldn't rely on people using 
them.  If the conditions are that bad, you should slow down, so that if a car 
appears out of nowhere, you can take the appropriate action safely.  (you=one)

Matt$your_mum.

    I agree with what has been said in the last several notes, both for and
    against using these lights.

    However, I'd like to say that I used my rear foglight (yes, the car I 
    have only has ONE rear fog light!) this morning in torrential rain. The
    road surface was the type that causes a lot of spray (i.e. it was very
    smooth). 

    I tend to drive leaving ample distance between me and the car in front
    particularly in conditions like this morning. However, seeing as there 
    are a lot of Alain Prosts and Jean Alessis on the autoroutes over here, 
    (they drive very fast, and with only millimetres between their cars) I
    am not keen on the thought of any of them hitting me up the "derri�re". 
    (I've already been the victim of two rear-end shunts; I don't want to
    have anymore.)

    I will add, that when the weather conditions improved, or the road sur-
    face changed for the better, I switched the rear foglight off.

    Martin.

    I very much doubt if rear foglights would help you in the case of a
    tail-gater. Frankly, they do it whatever to weather and road
    conditions.
    
    Laurie.

    
    Most people just forget to turn them off when they turn their lights
    off. So next evening it's on again.
    
    In most cases, the warning light is not obvious.
    
    My parents used to have an Escort which had a non-latching switch with
    a relay - just like most heated screen switches. So if you turn off the
    lights, the relay drops out and the fogs aren't on next time to light
    up.
    
    Its so simple and obvious, I suppose it's too much to expect the
    manufacturers to fit it!
    
    Dave
    

Wasn't it VW who implemented the fog light switch into the normal light
switch, so you'd have to turn the things off when you stop?

Chris.

The VW Golf mk3 has a similar sort of foolproof system.  The fog lights are on 
the same switch/dial as the normal lights.  This means that when you switch 
your lights off, you're also switching the fog lights off.

re .119

bugger.

The original BX (1984 vintage) had this feature. The 
light switch was in order
	OFF
	Parking/side
	Head
	Fog
Never any possibility of leaving them on unintentionally

Richard 

    The Xantia resets to off when you switch off the ignition.
    
    Both the Xantia and the R19 have very visible tell-tale lamps beside
    the speedo, and the Xantia also has a tell-tale on the switch.