Conference terri::cars_uk

    Does any kind soul with a 'spare' quote feel like submitting a quote
    for an Elan SE ??
    
    Cheers,
    
    Rich
    

    
    re .35 VOGAN::MORGAN
    
    Do you want the prices, or are you looking to buy one? I am thinking
    about selling my place on the list (delivery Oct 90), because I am not
    sure about keeping a soft-top anymore.
    
    Graham

    What I'm after is the lease cost that either PHH/Hertz might come up
    with for the U.K. company car lease scheme hence my request for some
    kind sould to submit a lease quote for me.
    
    My current car comes up for renewal soon, about three months, and right 
    now I'm in extremis. Either it's going to be something extremely practical 
    and useful or something totally outrageous i.e a Sierra Cosworth or an 
    Elan SE. However with a planned delivery date of October 90 maybe I'll
    change my mind about the Lotus !!
    
    Many thanks for the kind offer though.
    
    Rich
    

	If your current car is due for renewal in only 3 months I would
    suggest that you look after it very well... Any current order for an
    Elan will produce a 12-14 month delivery time. My SE was ordered within
    days of the "official" announcement and is also quoted as an Oct
    '90 delivery...
    
    	Lotus were only going to produce 5000 Elans this year, and they
    were all sold within a week of the order hold being lifted... Good
    luck all the same !
    
    	Rat

    Have you seen Autocar/Motor this week?
    
    Headline for the Lotus Elan....
    
    " SELL YOUR GRANDMOTHER TO BUY THIS CAR !"
    
    

    
    Yeah, but this isn't always a good thing.
    
    They've said the same about Esprits (or something similar anyway)
    in the past, but that hasn't stopped Lotus acquiring a reputation
    for dodgy quality (which admittedly they seem to be shaking off).
    
    Considering the vast (in comparison to other models in their range)
    quantities that they intend to build the Elan in, it'll be interesting
    to see if they can build a consistently good and reliable car.
    
    Hopefully they can.
    
    Mark

    RE .39
    Could someone please put the gist of the Autocar article in here,or perhaps
    a photostat by internal mail ??
    
    Kevin Morrissey 
    I.S. Telecoms Munich
    LOC RTO
    
    P.S. Mine's supposed to be delivered in the spring,but I'm having
    doubts.....
    

    
    	Ahh no ! If Morrissey is getting one, would anyone like my place
    in the queue ? I thought these things were going to be semi-exclusive
    I didn't expect every Tom, Dick, and Kevin to pick them up...!
    
    	Rat is not impressed !

    Got the roof repaired yet Al ??
    
    8^) 
    

    
    	Seen any tram lines recently Kev ?
    
    	:-(

    	Only the red ones in my eyes most mornings...
    
    	Anyhow,it was the lamp post that did most of the damage..
    
    
                                              Cheers,
    							Kev_the_tram_driver
                                                        

    
    RE: .39 - AUTOCAR
    
    Have they driven the car? What do they think of it?
    
    Graham

    
    Please please please ...
    
    Has anyone seen a test report that they could extract a few comments
    from ... Geneva airport are still selling 2/1/90 issue of Autocar.
    Also the London Lotus Centre were saying at the Motor Show that
    test drives would be in Jan, does anyone know of a date (or a 
    phone number?).
    
    Graham (Isolated of Ferney!)
    

    
    Re .47
    
    All the road tests here say much the same thing.
    
    This is the best car ever built and you must sell your grandmother
    to get one! :^)
    
    No doubt the hype will die down eventually and some truly objective
    tests will be published, but at the moment it appears that no-one
    has been disappointed by the car, which given all it's pre-release
    hype sounds pretty impressive.
    
    Mark

    
    Mark,
    
    Thanks, I'll have to ask my girlfriend to raid the
    newsagents (unfortunately her interest in cars is limited - no
    enthusiasm for it at all!!).                       
                                                       
    Graham

    A new sales/dealers organisation has been put in place since the
    GM takeover. For readers of the C�te d'Azur there is GM/Lotus dealer
    in Nice (Izzillo, phone 93.83.77.37). Izzillo just told me that
    France will only get the turbo version (165bhp), at 264,000FFr,
    delivered around May-June. Now he also told me that something like
    45 units in total were allocated for France. If you want one before
    summertime you have to place the order NOW. No demo car available
    yet, will arrive with 1st batch (May-June). 
    
    264,000FFr=26,400 pounds how does that sound to UK readers/Lotus fans ?
                             

26400FF = 27230 pounds at the moment, ie about 40% more than the UK 
price (19700 from memory). Isn't it 18% tax to import a car to France 
from the UK?

Graham

    Well, France VAT on cars (luxury items !) is 25%. What's UK VAT?

In the UK, you pay a Special Car Tax which is roughly 8% of the ex-works
cost, and then 15% VAT on the lot.

e.g.; BX GTi is "Basic Price �9913, Car Tax �826.08, VAT �1610.86,
total  l-12349.94"

Of course, a UK GTi speci is much higher than in France, as Electric
sun roof/windows/stereo/tinted glass are all included in the Basic price.

And VAT is one of those taxes where you pay tax on the tax you've already paid,
e.g. excise tax on fuel, etc.

Peter.

oh and by the way, the discount you get from a dealer only reduces
the basic price, not the SCT, and then the 15% VAT gets calculated.

This is how a 10% discount doesn't give a 10% reduction in the total price..

Peter

    Thanks for the data. 
    
    Now, as a foreigner if I want to export a car from the UK how much 
    should I pay ? basic price ?

    
    
    	Is it true that car tax is only 8% ? thought it was 10 %
    	Also if its on manufacturers base price do you know how they 
    	calculate the tax on an import, is it still on Manuf's price
    	or price of car as purchased. If its Manufs base price how do
    	they adjust, if at all, if you buy second hand ?
    
    	I know its got nothing to do with lotus ! but it could :-)
    
    	Garry
    

Hi Garry - long time no see!!

I thought SCT was 10% as well, but when I looked at a price list, it
seems to be 8% nowadays..

on an import; if it's new, you pay full SCT and then VAT. I guess there
is an adjustment for older cars, but I dunno, you could look in the
follwing notes:

940.0     SHAPES::STREATFIELDC  26-JAN-1990     8  USA to UK car Imports??

	This is probably completely wrong, but I would have thought you
	could buy a car in the UK, less car tax and/or VAT, drive it to
	France, pay import tax, register it, and save yourself enough to 
	pay for the petrol and tolls to get it to the South of France and
	eat a meal on the autoroute (well, almost :-).

	Maybe you have to keep it somewhere/own it for a period of time first.

	Or maybe I'm talking rubbish again.

	Graham

        It would have to be type approved for France too ... lights,
	speedo etc etc all conforming to the French standard.

	BMW UK can supply a French compliant version of any BMW to
	order. You can then do exactly as described in -.1. Not sure
	how much you save by doing this though ...

    Mark

    Yes, that's what I thought too. If the base price in the UK of a
    french version + 25% VAT < french price, then ....
    
    Back to the new Elan. Is it available in the UK ? I mean do you
    see them in the street ? What's the price of the n/a version ?

    
    
    
    	Ta Peter,
    
    	I will try and get hold of the booklet mentioned in 940.? from
    	the consulate and post the relevant bits somewhere.
    
    	also to save soiling the lotus note I'll create another so , see
    	you there.....
    
    

did anyone enter the competition to win a new elan turbo in CAR magazine?

...art

      
      I had a test drive of the Elan yesterday, from the London Lotus
      Centre ... wonderful, but I have no idea how you are supposed to
      park the thing! You can't actually see any of the corners from the
      drivers seat. With the hood up, sat in the passenger seat you do
      get a great impression of the distance to the windscreen, but
      driving it with the hood down it was no problem at all. The top of
      the windscreen was maybe a bit intrusive.

      The box containing the handbrake gets in the way when you change
      gear, but it seems that will stay that way for production versions
      (apparently this car was the first to go to a dealers). They have
      apparently improved the brakes (I hope that is true...)

      Anyway, I liked it, but unfortunately the October delivery they
      were originally quoting has been pushed back "4 weeks we think".

      Graham

>>     Anyway, I liked it, but unfortunately the October delivery they
>>      were originally quoting has been pushed back "4 weeks we think".


when did you order it then?

i thought there was a TWO year waiting list??


...art

      <<< Note 77.64 by VOGON::ATWAL "Dreams, they complicate my life" >>>

>>when did you order it then?
>>
>> i thought there was a TWO year waiting list??

I think that's right, maybe even longer. I went to the Earls Court Motor
show last October, just to have a look around ... sat in the car, went
for a quick beer to calm the nerves and decided to go for it :-). They were
quoting one year delivery then. I'm number 70-something on the London 
Lotus Centre list.

Graham

      I just got the latest price list through for the Elan, they are
      talking about a 2 - 3 month delay, and as a result the price has
      gone up about �1800 ... and they say the delay will be good news
      for buyers because of increased second hand values. Not sure I
      understand that one!

      Also an article in 'Motor Trader' magazine mentions Club Lotus
      getting terribly upset because dealers have been buying back
      delivery mileage Elans for up to +�5K and selling them for up to
      +�8K.
      
      So ... this might be the chance to make up some of the large
      amounts of money lost over the last few years on depreciating
      cars :-)

      Graham.

Well, exactly a year later. I've had the car for about six weeks now. Any
plans to make a profit seem to have gone out of the window with the state
of the market, so the only option seems to be to keep it :-)

A few problems so far, in 3,500 miles:

	The heater failed, stuck on full the day before I was due to
	drive from the UK to Ferney. It works via a series of vacuum
	pipes, and the local dealer (in Geneva) are still waiting for
	the bit to repair it. It is now stuck on cold, which is not
	a great problem here at the moment (30 degrees C.)

	The passenger's electric window mechanism broke, so the window
	dropped inside the door. The garage 'fixed' it, but it broke
	again immediately when I picked it up, so it was off the road for
	two days.

	The voltmeter intermittently sticks on full.

So, a few unexpected quality problems, more than made up for by the fact
that the car is superb to drive, nice and quick, and is always turning
heads. And air-conditioning is brilliant, even with the hood down.

Oh yes, one more problem ... last night on the autoroute to Montreux
the front rhs tyre blew out at 110mph. Exciting, but not really the car's 
fault. The space saver is a 105, maximum speed 50mph ... so we didn't get
to the festival :-(

Graham.

    
    Lotus have annouced today that, effective immediately, they are to stop
    production of the ELan - recession, low voulmes etc. etc.
    
    Seems to me it would have made more sense to stop production of the
    Esprit or whatever.
    
    Another great idea abdicated to the competition.
    
    Rich
    

    � Seems to me it would have made more sense to stop production of the
    � Esprit or whatever.

    I wouldn't have thought so, there's a good deal less competition at
    �40+k than there is at �20k, and the Esprit's been selling well for
    years. The Elan has been slated by the motoring press right from the
    word go, and is neither attractive, fast, agile, nor good value for
    money. On East Anglian local news at the weekend, there was a report
    that said Lotus were extremely worried by the new french "Esprit
    equivalent" car (can't remember the name) which is just being launched
    in the UK by an ex-Lotus senior executive, I imagine they want to
    concentrate their resources into making sure the Esprit can continue
    to compete with the opposition...

    JJ.

>>  that said Lotus were extremely worried by the new french "Esprit
>>  equivalent" car (can't remember the name) which is just being launched
    
	MVS Venturi?
    
    Graham.

    
    Re .69
    
    Obviously you've been reading the Horse and Hounds Magazine motor
    reviews, JJ.
    
    The Elan may not be the fastest thing on the road (but many testers
    have described it as JUST that), it may not be the prettiest (Beauty
    is in the eye...) and it may not be the best selling, but I've not seen
    ONE review which had anything but praise for its agility.
    
    The Elan was pasted by the press for being too good. The would be
    Ayrton Sennas couldn't loose control of it (because its limits were too
    high) and then congratulate themselves for being great drivers for
    getting it all back together.
    
    I'll miss the Elan. It was a brave, modern car killed by economic
    considerations, rather than any basic fault with the car.
    
    Mark

Shame. Are you sure its not just temporary, as when they halted production 
for three months a short while ago, to reduce stocks?

re: .69, Jonathon - which particular bit of the motoring press did you
read 'from the word go'? Phrases that spring to mind include 'the first
sub-�20,000 super-car', 'sell your grandmother to buy this car'. Even
the American motoring press praised its handling and agility.

And I think it's attractive - at least, it always turns heads :-)

Biased as always ...

Graham.

    What a shame.                                                       
    
    I got very close to buying one of these toys, certainly one of if not
    the most impressive cars I've been in ever. Safe, blindingly fast,
    looked the part etc etc,
    
    	Rik
    
    PS I bet the 210bhp BBR version was _really_ fun (Std. model has 160bhp)

I'd not heard of a BBR conversion - do you have any more details? Now
that the warranty has expired ... :-) :-)

Cheers,

Graham 

    Gra,
    
    	Rob had a BBR conversion on his Cossie (i think), drop him a 
    line!
    
    				Lewis.

I would have got one, if it wasn't going to be more than I could afford on the 
lease scheme...

pity...

    A two page spread in todays Autocar and Motor says that the new Elan
    has now been put down to rest and even the Esprit is only going to
    built to order buy their R & D division.
    
    Martin

	So they're concentrating on the spreadsheet now then?

	;-)

Ho Ho,

I'm surprised that GM aren't helping Lotus make more of them!
What with the MX-5, CRX etc selling well.

I'd certainly consider them if one of the models came in lower
than 19,250!

Oh, and by the way, I'd say the looks rate No. 1 in my book.

Mark.

    RIP the Lotus Elan - the original one !!!
    
    The latest one seemed (according to magazine write-ups) to have been
    an exceptionally good handling car, with plenty of performance to go
    with it (as opposed to the great handling MX-5, with no power), but
    (in my opinion) it looked crap !!!  It was also far too expensive.
    
    Just think, it could have been a fast Midget (no such thing ?), which
    should have had appeal to a lot of people who would like a convertible.
    Instead, it was a 'Yuppy toy', brought at after the 'Yuppy age' had
    passed the time of being an easy money spinner.
    
    Now to hope that Jaguar get their 'entry-level' vehicle right...
    
    J.R.
    
    (of course, the Lotus wasn't Italian - worse still, it had a Jap engine !!!)

    � (of course, the Lotus wasn't Italian - worse still, it had a Jap engine !!!)
    				   ^^^^^^^
    
    Well that's one redeeming feature then! :^)
    
    Mark
    

Do I detect racist overtones?

/Dave.

    
    Detect what you will, Dave.
    
    I just can't think of an affordable Italian sportscar, can you?
    
    Mark

    As a driver of the current Elan (the model they stopped making 6 months
    ago) not the Elan SE which they stopped 4 days ago, I received the
    announcement with mixed emotions. Firstly great sadness because, if
    Lotus had priced the Elan and the SE correctly, they would have sold
    many more. Secondly with a little joy in that my Elan will be worth
    more in the future. However there is nothing to say that they won't
    start building in again when we come out of the recession -- 1996?? 8-)
    
    All I can say is that my Elan lives up to all the positive reports I have
    read and I can't remember reading any negative ones.
    
    Jim - driving the most fun car he has ever driven

    Some officials from Lotus and Bugatti confirmed the information
    launched a few months ago at the Brussels show: 
    
    A batch of 800 special edition ELAN will be produced later this year.
    The plan is to produce 550 RHD and 350 LHD. 

re .85

Errr, not meaning to be picky, but 550+350 = 900, not 800.

Clive

    .86�Errr, not meaning to be picky, but 550+350 = 900, not 800.
    
    aaahh ... getting old, you know ...
    
    350 LHD
    450 RHD (you lucky winners)

    
    
    I thought that the 350 and 550 were bhp figures :-(
    
    Richard.

    The combined Lotus-Bugatti stand at the Geneva Auto Show have a
    
    - Esprit S4
    - Esprit 300
    - Elan SE
    
    Apparently all road Esprit engines are rated at 300bhp. The race
    version must be in the 500 range ...
    
    The GT race at Le Castellet last weekend saw one of these Esprit LM in
    3rd overall up to 4 laps from finish line.

Is there any difference between the new batch of Elans and the original
90-93 version? I was at the Lotus dealer in Gland (CH) yesterday (parting
with large amounts of dosh for a small relay for the fuel pump :-(, and the
guy mentioned that there would be some difference in the styling.

Cheers,

Graham.

    Graham,
    
    No idea. But you may want to ask that question to the Lotus reps at
    Palexpo (until March 20th).
    
    8^)

Yes, I'm going to visit on Tuesday. 

Cheers,

Graham.

    o The front bumper / wing is taken from the US spec car.
    o The alloy wheels are of new style (similar to the Esprit 300 I think).
    o The interior has new a few cosmetic changes.
    
    	Rik

	Well, this New Elan didn't fare too well. I thought it was 
	ugly looking myself, and the price was pretty high too.

	So they're having another go at a small car. 'Mid' engined
	and styled like a small racing car - shades of TVR, MR2 it's
	expected to use Rover K series power and be competitively
	priced - �16k is speculated. Looks like a much better prospect
	than the last effort to me. Should appear later this year.

	-John

    
    Err... The new Europa perhaps? Problem is that Rover (MG) already have
    this car on (or almost on) the market in the MG-F!
    
    Mark

	Forgot to mention that it will be very light - aluminium chassis
	apparently. The article I read suggested that they may only get
	the 1.6 engine to avoid embarrassing the MG.

	I doubt if it will be called Elan, since that's still in use so
	to speak, and certainly not Europa. Tradition has it that all
	Lotus road cars start with the letter E though.

	-John

    After speaking to the official tour guide at the factory in the spring,
    the new car is intended to be more of a & replacement than a rival to
    the MG-F. It will have no roof, no boot to speak of ad a power to
    weight ratio that usually belongs with two-wheels rather than 4.
    
    It is intended to be a weekend plaything. Why no just buy a bike and
    avoid the parking problems....
    
    Simon

re .100

hahaha!  What noters would they be!?! Spoilsport!

    For goodness sake. Either explain why the note is hidden, or let fellow
    noters read the dam thing!

Sorry, my fault; something of an `in joke', as certain noters claim note
numbers which are multiples of 100 as `trophies'.  I decided to prevent
this happening before a culprit (Lozzer, are you there?) grabbed it.

Chris.

    Me?

    
    Well its been a long time sine this note has been used. Saw the new
    Lotus last night, looked a little like the Porsche Boxter in some
    respects and also a bit Ferrair 50'ish on the front bonnet. Anyone any
    idea of the cost.
    
    Also I presume a certain reader of this notes file will be buying one
    for his wife, regardless of the cost.
    

    hi,
    
    If you want loads of info on it then get this weeks A&M as 
    it is their main new scoop, they show the design process
    as well as a drive in it, puts the new MGF in the shade a 
    bit (IMO) it does look great i think from memory were talking 
    approx 16K when it goes on sale,
    
    Cheers 
    
    Mark

    Apparently the price is nearer 19K but the base model will be very
    basic with no carpets and low-levels of trim. I think its due out
    in April now.
    
    The dealer also told me that the factory options will include special
    order ultra-lightweight body panels and also some suspension and
    tuning tweaks.
    
    A removable hard-top should also be available.
    
    Hope this helps,
    Barry.

Be interesting to see what the final delivery date and price turns out to be,
after seeing what happened with the Elan.  Must admit, I'm quite surprised to
see Lotus release this, 'cos the since the sale to Kia fell through, I thought
they'd be strapped for cash.

Incidentally, the new Esprit is due out soon, with a V8 with twin turbos!  If I
remember rightly, it was something like 360 odd BHP.

Farrell

    
    I saw it being unveiled in Frankfurt (on TV), but didn't know what it
    was. First thought when I saw the front was that it was a new Mini
    Marcos! :^) Still, it looked a bit better when they finished
    uncovering.
    
    I'd rather have the Caterham (C21?:) meself.
    
    Mark

    I think Lotus tried to build a 1996 version of the 7. Announced weight
    is 675kg which will probably make it the fastest car in the streets in
    both acceleration and braking.
    
    How is Lotus doing ? well they seem to be doing all right. 
    
    Lotus Engineering employ around 800 people (engineers) and are fully
    loaded. Lotus Cars employ around 200 people. New Lotus Cars boss comes
    from Aston Martin. I heard him say that the Elise is exactly what he
    wanted to do at AM but Ford had different views.
    
    Parent company Bugatti Intl still alive. Bugatti Cars just collapsed
    but I expect someone to inject money and take over. 

    .67�               <<< Note 77.67 by JURA::KEHILY "... some day." >>>
    .67�Well, exactly a year later. I've had the car for about six weeks now.
    
    Saw the Metallic Blue, RHD, UK registered LOTUS ELAN in the Geneva area
    a few days ago.
    
    Graham, was it you driving ?

re.  .111

Patrick,

Graham's now left DEC to set up his own company (see http://www.centrenet.co.uk)
You can mail him on [email protected].

FYI.   Whilst he still has the Lotus, it couldn't have been him in Geneva, as I 
       met him in Sevenoaks (UK) to let him demo a 348TB I'd borrowed.


Salut,
/Mark.

    I'll note the number plate next time.
    
    .112�FYI.   Whilst he still has the Lotus, it couldn't have been him in Geneva, as I 
    .112�       met him in Sevenoaks (UK) to let him demo a 348TB I'd borrowed.
    
    No problem. Bring the 348tb to Geneva, I'll buy you lunch.

Patrick,

I expect the other blue Elan is 'H' Reg. (owned by a 'friend of a friend' called
Andy who works @CERN.)

I'm seeing Graham in Brussels this w/e, and will mention you asked after him.


Salut,
/Mark.


PS. It's a F355 Spyder next - see you in the George & Dragon.