Conference 7.286::home_work

                                 Vinyl Tile
                                 ----------


      At first I wanted to refinish a cement slab  family  room  floor
      with  ceramic  tile.  Then I looked at what the adhesive for the
      tiles, grout, and other items cost.  The least expensive tile is
      about  $1.75/sq.   ft., but the other materials are just as much
      per foot as the tile itself.

      I have settled on  vinyl  tile  (12"  squares)  because  of  its
      durability  and ease of doing it yourself.  Now I need to locate
      a good source for the tile.  The tile places I  have  looked  at
      sell  it  for about $1.25/sq.  ft.  I know that I have to add in
      the adhesive also,  but  where  can  I  buy  these  items  at  a
      reasonable  price?   I  live  near Marlboro, so anyplace between
      Worcester and Framingham is reasonable.

      The floor is now painted and the paint is peeling.  The tile man
      said to remove the paint but don't try and seal the cement slab.
      The slab is dry and not seeping.  He said that the adhesive must
      grip  into  the cement and sealing it would prevent a good bond.
      He also said that it was not necessary to roll the  floor  after
      installation.  Does all this sound right?


      Peter

Someone I know did the same thing to their cement floor.  I don't know what
type of adhesive was used but the tiles started to lift after about two 
years.  The floor eventually had to be redone.

I am currently finishing of my basement also.  I decided to build a "false"
floor; that is, a layer of 5/8" flooring over two inch lumber which has been
layed on its side.  The two inch lumber has been treated with wood preservative
and is layed on its side over a heavy vapor barrier.  It seems to have worked
very well, with the floor comfortable enough to make me almost forget I am
in a basement.   

Its possible that the person who tiled his floor did not use the proper 
adhesive.  Either way, I figured you may want to know possible alternatives.

Please keep us posted.  By the way, did you learn anything about carpet padding
designed especially for basement floors?

Thanks,
Denis

                I live in a slab house where one of the rooms was added 
        later in what would be the back of the garage (the house was 
        designed with this in mind). I had to replace the floor of this 
        room because of a flaw in the way the garage slab was laid (it 
        doesn't drain to any particular place!) it allowed water runoff 
        from the car to go under the floor of the room. This caused 
        massive rot from below!
                
                The floor was originally constructed by laying 2x3's 
        flat and placing 5/8's plywood on top with loose rock wool in 
        between (Boy does that rock wool hold the water!). This was then 
        finished by putting asphalt tile on top. 
                
                Sometime after it was constructed, it "rotted" from 
        below (the plywood delaminated) and was "fixed" by putting down 
        a new layer of plywood over the old floor (some fix!) and then 
        placing linoleum on top.
                
                I had to rip all that up and replace it! What a mess! To 
        make it even more difficult, the wall between the garage and 
        the room was built on top of the old floor. (i.e. in layers from 
        the bottom up - slab, 2x3, plywood, 2x4, vertical studs, etc.) 
        Suffice it to say I got it up sucessfully.
                
                What I put back was, first, a vapor barrier of heavy (5 
        mil??) polyethelyne sheet which I ran up the wall by a couple of 
        inches. Next went the 2x3's laid flat (after Cuprinoling them), 
        followed by styrofoam insulation like you would use for paneling 
        between the 2x3's. (The slab sits on the ground and is 
        uninsulated.) This was topped with 5/8 outdoor plywood and 
        covered with the self stick floor tiles.
                
                If you've read this far, the point to all this being 
        here, is to suggest that some sort of insulation be put between 
        the cement floor and the wood floor with the caution that it not 
        be easy to get soaking wet. Also to point out that putting a 
        wood floor over cement sitting on the ground needs to be done so 
        as to at least slow down, if not prevent the rotting out from 
        below.
                
                /s/     Bob

    Did you do anything about putting up a barrier of some sort to keep
    any water in the garage from running under the wall?  A 1" or 2"
    dike of waterproofed concrete, or something like that.
    The use of styrofoam sounds like a good idea; it won't absorb water.
    
    Steve

                Nope. No barrier yet (one of those many things that get 
        put in someday list!). We have been careful about getting the 
        water absorbed in something (like newspapers) when the car comes 
        in with the clumps of snow. This also protects other things in 
        the garage too.
                
                I've also wondered about getting the new cement to 
        adhere properly to the existing slab. Any ideas??
                
                /s/     Bob

    
    
                I will be tiling a bathroom floor and i was 
    wondering if i should tile around the toilet or pull it up and bring
    the tile under it? anyone have any concerns about this ? or if 
    you have done this what should i expect?
    
                      thanks, paul

    I've only had experience from tiling a new bathroom, and from the
    gist of your note, I think you must be retiling an existing one.
    However, for a new room, you tile underneath. Is a matter of fact,
    when my plumber was ready to install the toilets, but I wasn't ready
    to grout the tiles, I just grouted the area where the toilet and
    sink would be. The bottom of the toilet is designed to meet the
    top of tiles, rather than the edge of the toilet bottom meeting
    the sides of tiles. However, I would take this all with a grain
    of salt, and adjust this to your existing conditions. If I had to
    retile, I would leave the old tiles under the existing toilet, and
    tile up to the toilet with the new tiles. If I was switching from
    vinyl to ceramic tile, and thus changing the height of the flooring,
    then in the interest of uprooting as little as possible, I'd tile
    up to the toilet rather that lift it.
    If you are doing it yourself and know how, or if you have a plumber
    doing work anyway, you might do it the standard way and lift the
    toilet. However, if you were not planning on using a plumber, and
    are not sure how to remove/replace a toilet drain and cold water
    source, then just leave it and tile up to the toilet.
    
    good luck
    
    Dave
    

Given the thickness of the tile you are going to use I would think you would
have to consider the seal made by the wax ring onto the pipe that the toilet
attaches too.  Assuming this pipe was mounted such that proper connection
is made with the toilet flush to the floor you may have problems if the tile
prevents the toilet from making proper contact.

Just something to consider

peter

The tile really should go underneath the toilet.  If it just butts up
against it, there's a good chance that condensation will accumulate
underneath and rot the floor.  I believe that the wax ring is made very
thick to accommodate (no pun intended) various thickness of flooring.
When you lower the toilet onto the wax ring, the ring gets compressed
until the toilet hits the new flooring.

JP

    Just remember to put in a new wax ring if you do lift the stool.

    and, if the wax ring isn't high enough for some reason, you can
    always use two of them.
    
    -joet

    IHAVE INSTALLED CERAMIC TILE PROFESSIONALLY AND I WOULD LIKE TO
    OFFER SOME ADVICEAND THE REASONS WHY FOR.
    1] REMOVE THE TOILET AND THE CAST IRON HUB THAT IS ATTACHED TO THE
       SOIL PIPE.
    2] TILE THE FLOOR UP TO THE SOIL PIPE AND LEAVE ENOUGH SPACE AROUND
       THE SOIL PIPE TO INSTALL A NEW HUB OR THE OLD ONE IF YOU CAN
       SALVAGE IT.
    
    REASONS FOR: 
    1] THE PLUMBING CODES IN MASSACHUSETTS REQUIRE THAT THE TOILET REST
       ON THE TOP OF THE FINAL FLOOR. THIS IS TO INSURE THAT THERE WILL
       BE A PROPER SEAL TO PREVENT THE ESCAPE OF SEWER GASSES IN TO
       THE HOUSE.
    2] IF AFTER YOU INSTALL THE FLOOR AND SOMETIME LATER YOU HAVE AN
       ACCIDENT AND BREAK THE TOILET, THE REPLACEMENT MAY NOT HAVE THE
       SAME DESIGN FEATURE AS THE OLD TOILET AND YOU WOULD HAVE A SPACE
       BETWEEN THE TILE AND THE NEW TOILET BASE. BUT IF YOU TILE TO
       THE SOIL PIPE YOU HAVE NO SPACES TO CONTENT WITH.
    
       ONE OTHER PIECE OF ADVICE FROM EXPERIENCE. ONLY TIGHTEN THE BOLTS
       ON THE TOILET BASE JUST ENOUGH TO PREVENT THE TOILET FROM ROCKING
       OR MOVING. IF YOU OVER TIGHTEN YOU WILL CRACK THE BASE AND HAVE
       TO BUY A NEW TOILET. I LEARNED THIS THE HARD WAY.
    

    
    or could scream so loud
    
    (-: phil :-)

    
    Having just gone through this a th ago I'd have to say that while
    I didn't appreciate it at the time I'm glad I took up the toilet
    and tiled underneath.
    
    My main problem was getting the toilet centered while replacing
    it. I ruined several wax seals by not being carefull enuf! And if
    you're like I am and am doing this stuff on a Sunday evening you'll
    find it's a good idea to invest in at least two seals. At $2 a shot
    it's worth it when you screw up the first time and the stores are
    closed! Having two people helps too.
    
    
    Regards, 
    
    Ray
    

    
    
        I should have mentioned that i am using vinyl tile,also
    last night after inspecting underneath the linoleum thats already
    there i found that the floor is a little rough for a good surface
    so now it looks like i will have to put down some 1/4 inch plywood
    after i take up the linoleum so that i will have a good surface
    for the new floor. i hope i don't have to replace the collar on
    the pipe for the toilet cause i'm not sure whats involved there.
    
                    Paul
    

    -<hub on soil pipe>-
    
    Paul,give me a call on the phone and I will give you some hints
    on how to remove and install the hub on the soil pipe.
    
    orrySSSS	SSS

    Paul, my DTN is 297-4115 I am in Marlboro I didn't tell you taht
    in reply .10
    
    

    By the hub, do you mean the wax seal?  If so, could you please make
    the information public?
    
    I'm about to put my toilet back after installing a new ceramic tile
    floor in my bathroom.  This started because the old hub didn't form a
    proper seal, so the floor rotted, etc.  I'd rather do it right this
    time and not have to rip up the floor again. 
    
    Thanks.
    
    	- Barry

    BARRY, Not the wax seal, the hub is the cast iron ring that the
    toilet is attached to. But since you have already installed the
    ceramic floor I would recommend that you install a wax seal with
    a plastic horn. you can purchase these at most hardware stores.
    If you are close to "SPAG'S" they are about the cheapest price.
    By the way you may also need a supply line to the toilet tank 
    because of the new floor height. SPAG'S carries these also.
    
    I hope I have been of some help to you,good luck.
    

    Ah.  Thanks.  I've already got one of the wax seals you've described.
    My plan of attack is to grout the floor, then put in the new soil
    pipe with hub.  The old one was tilted a bit and I suspected that
    may have been the cause of my problems.  I cut the pipe and reglued
    it to correct the tilt.  While I was at it, I decided to replace
    the hub since the old metal one was rusty.
    
    PVC piping (which my soil stack is made of) is great stuff!
    
    Now, if I could just get back to working on my bathroom instead
    of TPU at strange hours...
    
    	- Barry

    When we moved into our 13 yera old house, the original owners pointed
    with pride to their recently installed Armstrong NoWax floor in
    the kitchen. This product has the soft surface that any heavy item 
    (such as a refrigerator) leaves a permanent dent in the floor. The
    kitchen walls needed painting so we moved the fridge out and painted.
    After moving the fridge, I discovered that I had left dents where
    the fridge sat over night and where I moved the fridge sideways,
    I tore the surface into ripples. One of the tears left about a half
    inch gash that our cat made into a 6 inch tear now.
    
    I want to remove this flooring and replace it with hard tiles. We
    were told that to remove the floor covering would cost $85 or if
    I did it myself, it'll take some scraping off of the under layer.
    I was told by others that a use of the industrial heat gun with
    a scraper will do the job. 
    
    Has anyone any experience with this?
    
    Please reply to Genral::Hoe as well as to this note.
    
    /cal
    

    Heat guns will do a fair job of removing the old floor.  Wear heavy
    gloves and be carefull not to burn the subfloor.  It would be a
    good idea to put a new subfloor down before you put a new nowax
    floor.   Heat guns run about $40.00 - $60.00 
    

    I tried the heat gun approach on tiles - not much success. Ended
    up using a torch w/flame spreader, and a putty knife that I didn't
    expect to use on anything nice, ever again.
    
    An iron also works for tiles, but you have to be careful not to
    melt the tile on the iron surface. Wax paper inbetween works, but
    not for long (you have to change it often)
    
    Finally, it's going to leave adhesive behind. I would put down some
    1x6 or panelling - something strong enough that you can walk on
    it and pull it up without the residual adhesive winning. Again,
    it should be something you don't mind having adhesive GOO on forever.
    Also, the stuff you put down should be clean - don't want to add
    bits of rubble to the gooey floor!
    
    You can tell this is a favorite job of mine, right?
    
    -Scott
    

    I put down ceramic tile in my kitchen last year and I found that
    removing the old linoleum completely is almost impossible.  Basically
    you rip off as much as you can by hand or whatever other mechanical
    means.  Then in order to get the best possible surface for tiles,
    I installed 4' x 8' x 1/4" sheets of Lauan plywood over the now
    very bumpy floor.  Use ring nails (ones with concentric circles)
    about every 3" to 4".  The advantage is that you get a perfect surface
    for new floors (or tiles).... it's clean, smooth, free of loose
    material, etc.  The disadvantage is that you may have to saw off
    the bottoms of doors or raise your cove moldings.              
    
    -al

    The stucco on the outside of my house (Tudor) seems to have flaked
    off, how big a project is it to re-stucco or fix ? Are there any
    experience stucco types out there ?
    
    Lloyd

    I have heard that it's possible to freeze linoleum and its glue
    with dry ice, then break it off the subfloor.  However, I have
    never tried this stunt myself and have no idea how it would work,
    especially with the newer glues and floor materials. I heard about
    it years ago, back in the days of generic "linoleum".  
    The procedure as I somewhat hazily remember it is to get a chunk
    of dry ice about a foot square and an couple inches thick, set it
    on the linoleum for a minute or two until the linoleum freezes,
    then have at it with a heavy-duty putty knife.  Meanwhile you have
    presumably moved the dry ice to a new section of linoleum where
    it is busily doing its business of freezing that spot.
    
    Steve

    We just had a new vinyl floor installed in our kitchen. We paid
    the installer to put it in and I felt it was worth the expense.
    Keep in mind that the company you buy the new flooring from will
    not guarantee the flooring unless it is installed by one of their
    own installers. Given that any linoleum/vinyl flooring requires a perfectly
    smooth surface (otherwise it will have bumps or will crack), we
    decided to leave it to the pro's. The installer simply laid down
    the 1/4" lauan plywood (as mentioned in a previous reply) over
    the old floor with long staples (he kept saying the "special"
    staples he used are the best way to fasten it down), and spread
    some kind of compound similar to Levelastic to fill in the cracks.
    We haven't had any problems whatsoever - he did a beautiful job.
    
    He also said that many installers refuse to pull up old flooring
    because certain linoleums manufactured some years ago contain
    asbestos fibers which can be very dangerous when breathed in.
    I doubt that your Armstrong No-wax flooring contains asbestos though.
    
    - Dave
    

    I'm looking at replacing the ceramic tile in a bathroom. (Redecorating
    -- no major problems apparent.) 
                                   
    The bathroom currently has mosaic tiles that I've been able to easily
    pull up, atleast where I tested it. The plywood flooring seems OK. But
    the mastic is hard as a rock. I think I have three alternatives:
    
    1. Gently scrape the mastic and remove all pieces that will come
    up with little force. Then mix up and spread a coating of
    portland-cement based floor leveller over the floor. Let it harden
    and cure. Then put down mastic, new tile and mortar.
    
    2. Go nuts and scrape all the mastic off, even if it gouges the
    floor in the process. If there are any gouges, use the floor leveler
    or put down a layer of tempered hardboard or plywood. Then put down
    new mastic, tile and mortar.
    
    3. Replace the floor.

    I am not sure what I really should do and am looking for advice.
    My take on it is:
        
    3 is not an alternative. 
    
    2 seems like obsessive-compulsive behavior.
    It doesn't seem necessary. 
    
    Is 1 the right way to go?

    I had to replace a rotted section of my bathroom floor (under the
    toilet, of course) and ended up replacing the entire floor.  It
    really wasn't that bad.  When I discovered that the floor was particle
    board (in a bathroom?!?), I figured it all had to come out.
    
    Of course, I had a second bathroom I could use while the other one
    was torn apart...
    
    	- Barry

    re: .15
    
    If the sub floor seems solid and in good shape, try using a little
    paint remover on some of the mastic.....I have used it to remove
    mastic from wall over tub prior to installation of new shower surround.
    roll it on with a roller or by brush, open the window naturally,
    and close door. Have a 10-15 min break, and come back with a wide
    scraper such as a joint taping knife, 6-9" wide, and scrape up a
    marvelous sticky mess. Have plenty of newpaper and paper bag to
    put it in was you work. This will keep you from gouging the floor
    and will make the mastic come up easily.

   
          I used to do this for a living..... The way we removed
    linolium was to tear up what you can and sand off the backing
    with an edging sander with rough grit paper, you'll be suprised
    at how fast it works. Personally, I would go with a ceramic tile
    floor or no seam congolium or mannington floor. When you put down
    tiles you're asking for trouble with all those seams! After a 
    while the adhesive dries out and the individual tiles start to
    lift. Seeing how late I am with this reply....you've probably taken
    care of this problem weeks ago! Another route to go is to find
    an extra piece of flooring and overlay it to the area that is
    torn, with a utility knife, cut through both serfaces, remove 
    the old piece and reglue the new one.

    My friend has a house that had hard wood floors in the
    entrance hallway.  They placed peal n' press tiles over
    the area and would now like to remove them.  Can this
    be done easily??  should they use heat to lift the
    tiles??  or a solvent once removed??
    
    any helpful hints or past experience wanted!!!
                     
    

    I have just finished replacing some peal n' press tiles. They 
    came off with very little effort. Mine had been down for about 
    10 years. Since mine were over plywood I just sanded an put
    down new tile. Yes when they come up they leave a little glue
    on the floor. The glue they use on them is a type of contact
    cement. There are some solvents on the market that will remove
    the glue. Not sure what it would do to the surface though.
    If its a small area they could sand and reurthane the area.
                                              
    dave

    We are getting ready to redo our kitchen, and one of the things
    we want to do is replace/cover over the ancient linoleum floor,
    which was put down in 2 pieces, with a big seam down the middle
    of the kitchen. Has anyone had experience with the Armstrong
    Trim-N-Fit kits which you can use to pattern out a big piece of
    flooring and install it over the old floor? Is the installation
    of a huge piece of flooring with no seams something that's better
    left to a pro? Any not-so-obvious problems with putting a new floor over
    the old linoleum?
    
    Thanks in advance from a flooring neophtye!

    I'd take up the old linoleum first, then put down 1/4 Mohoguny
    Laun ( bad spelling) plywood, if the floor under it is bad.
    My first one piece flooring I put down myself. The second time
    it was done after ten years I let someone else do it and If I did
    it again I'd have someone do it. It took me a 1/2 day plus to do
    it. They did it in less then two hours. 
    
    dave
    

I aggree with .-1 with the caveat that is also depends on the shape
of your kitchen.  If it's nice and square, I might have a go at it.  If 
its gots lots of jogs, I wouldn't even consider it.

We had ours done awhile ago and by putting down my own luan plywood, 
saved some $$$.  When the flooring people came in they where shocked at 
the amount of jogs (including a peninsula for the stove).  The did the 
kitchen, hall and bathroom and fit around 6 doors with a single seam!  
It ended up taking them a day and a half.  On top of all this, the fit 
was so tight that we didn't even need moldings.

-mark

    My first step would be to try to take up the sheet vinyl.  The reason
    is I would have doubts about the "holding power" of your new tile
    floor on a slick surface like vinyl.  Start in an inconspicuous
    place and try to remove some of the vinyl to see how tenacious its
    hold is on the slab.  If it comes up fairly easily--take it up.
    If it seems like a big job to remove it, consider renting a floor
    sander to "rough" up the surface and give your tile somethng to
    hold on to.
    
    Trying to nail a plywood subfloor to a concrete slab sounds like
    a hard job.  A power gun might do the job but it's not something
    I'd like to tackle.
    
    
    					-- Mike

    Why not use epoxy for basement floor?  Even exterior plywood would
    give trouble if moisture were trapped by or condensed by the concrete.
    
    	
    RMM
    

    How cold is your current floor in the wintertime?  That is a good
    indicator on the need for the subfloor.  The subfloor will definitely
    make the room warmer if it is now cold on the floor.
    
    Doing the subfloor is no big deal; there is another note on that
    subject, including an epistle I wrote up that covers the process
    in detail.  
    
    If you do the subfloor, don't remove the vinyl, as it will act as
    a moisture barrier (I assume it is glued to the slab?), saving much
    work when doing the subfloor.
    
    If the floor is not cold, the go ahead and remove the vinyl, as
    it will not hold the tile well enough over time.  It's hard to imagine,
    though, a vinyl floor on a concrete slab that is not cold.
    
    -reed
    

    
    
    First of all you should compare prices on the new floor.  Removing
    the vinyl could be a challenge, I would definately check Taylor
    Rental and see what they have.
    If you want to build a sub-floor, check-out this files as mention
    in -.3 for details.           
    
    I would consider ceramic tiles as a replacement.  They may be a
    little more expensive but they last a lifetime with little maintenance.
    If you DIY it is not that hard, you just mix "Latex Adhesive" and
    a mixture of cement, this also water proofs the floor. The folks at
    Color Tiles are quite helpful.  Check out their sales.  

Thanks for all the responses so far, they've been very helpful.

From what I gather so far, the tiles would have a problem sticking to the 
vinyl and that I either need to pull up the existing, or add a layer of 
plywood over it.

I'd like to avoid having to nail the plywood onto the concrete.  Would a 
liquid nails type product (between the plywood and vinyl) do the job?

Thanks

Gary
    

    I wouldn't suggest it - you'd have the same problem as with putting
    the tiles on the vinyl.  Don't sweat laying the floor on t]he concrete
    - it's a piece of cake.  See previous notes on this subject, or
    give me a call - I just spent the weekend doing this - for about
    the 4th time (I should have bought the &&*&*(&*(&( stud gun the
    first time!). 
    
    BTW, if anyone out there in the marlboro/shrewsbury area needs some
    strapping, I seem to have miscalculated - I have 12 pieces of 14'
    strapping still banded together that I don't need.  Give me a call
    early this week!
    -reed
    

    I got a call about this note that I had forgotten that I had entered.

    To continue the story, I did install the vinyl tile (in March 86)
    and it looks good and hasn't developed any problems.  The absolutely
    worst part of the job was getting the paint off the floor.  I rented
    a floor sander (the kind that looks like a floor polisher) and sanded
    as much paint off as I could.  I wore a mask and goggles, but my
    hair looked like I had aged 40 years.  Took me 4 washings to get
    the concrete dust out of it.  Once everything was cleaned up, I
    did the tiling.  The first tile is the important one - you have
    to measure it so that there is about equal fractions of tile left
    over next to each wall and it runs parallel to the wall when you
    finish.  There is no correcting after you start.  The whole tiles went
    down in about 4 hours, but the major portion of the work was cutting
    and installing the borders and around the door mouldings.  The tile
    is easily cut by scoring with a razor blade and breaking or heating
    with a hair dryer and cutting with scissors (for the odd shapes).
    I found that warming the tile in the oven first made them very easy
    to work with (don't overdo it! - 90 deg. F is enough).  I'm not
    particularly artistic and I would say it was easy to get results
    that look as good or better than having a pro do it.  I took my
    time and was not satisfied with tiles not properly cut - which brings
    a good point to mind - buy enough tile for the mistakes.

    
    	I decided to use a separate note about this part of my kitchen
    project...
    
    	Has anyone installed their own vinyl flooring?  I have a big
    room, 13' x 14', so there will have to be a seam.  I went to a flooring
    store yesterday (Carpet World) and got 'floored' by the price of
    installation.
    	A good grade of vinyl flooring runs about $15-25 a square yard.
    I need about 20 yards so it totals about $400.  The kicker is that
    they want $600 to install it!  It is a new state law in MA that
    they can not remove the old floor.  It seems that some older flooring
    used asbestos which is a health hazard.  My old flooring does not
    have any asbestos, I called Amstrong flooring to double check. 
    I'm going to remove the flooring myself and put down the luan sub
    floor before I put down the cabinets.
    	I talked to the woman about the installation process to try
    to find out why it is so expensive.  She said that it takes two
    people about 4 hours to complete the job.  Allowing $100 for materials
    it still works out to be over $60 per hour!
    	Well at $60 an hour I'm willing to learn.  What is the process
    to put the floor down?  What do you do about seams?  Does it take
    a special talent like plastering, or can any person with time and
    patience do the job?
    
    						=Ralph=
    
    	(suddenly the douglas fir floor in my kitchen doesn't look that
    	 bad after all)

    Have you checked around at other places on the installation prices?
    
    $600.00!! OUTRAGEOUS!!
    
    Sounds to me like they think they saw you comming.
    
    dana

    I did the floor in a bathroom once, and had one short seam.  I had
    more trouble trimming around the vanity and bathtub than I had with
    the seam, although I had a random-pattern flooring so nothing had
    to match - the two edges just needed to butt tightly.
    I did have a problem getting all the air bubbles out and getting
    the floor down firmly, and this was a pretty small bathroom.  I think
    the pros use mega-pound steel rollers to roll the floor down; look
    into renting one if you do it yourself, and be *very* careful about
    not trapping air under the floor.
    Probably somebody else knows more about doing this job than I do
    and can give you better information.  I didn't know a thing about
    how to do it - just went ahead and tried it.  For a floor as big
    as yours, I'd encourage you to rent the proper tools, and find out
    as much as you can about the right way of doing it before beginning.
    Also, if you can get the flooring in a 15' width so you don't have
    a seam it might be worth the extra waste.  It may just come in 12'
    width.  For $600 you can rent a lot of tools and have quite a bit of 
    waste and still come out ahead!  I'd guess the job is something you could
    reasonably tackle.  If you have a bathroom or back hall someplace that 
    needs a floor you might experiment on that before trying the kitchen.

My husband and I installed our kitchen floor (Armstrong) 7 years ago.
We had never done it before.  We got a kit and cut out a pattern of
our room and then laid it on the linoleum and cut it out.  It fit
perfect!  We had one seam, and it's not noticable at all.  I can't 
remember the name of the kit but, you can get it at Plywood Ranch.

    I did a small bathroom using a kit by Armstrong. It is a little
    tough getting  all the air out, this may have been just difficult
    because of the small size of the room making it tight to maneuver.
    
    I know of someone that decided to their kitchen and screwed up a
    cut. They ended up having to buy the piece again. One of the things
    you pay for in the installation is a little insurance, if they screw
    it up, they replace it.
    
    Nick

I'd shop around for another store.  When we got our floor professionally 
put down, the price included installation and I think it was around 
20-25, though that was about 5 years ago.

One thing I did to keep the cost down was to put down my own subfloor 
which you REALLY have to do.  It requires luan plywood that costs around 
$10 a sheet and has to be nailed at about 4" intervals.  Not a hard job 
but VERY time consuming.

At least volunteer to do this much and see if the price drops.

-mark

    Either Armstrong or GAF offers a kit to install vinyl flooring,
    the ad says if you screw it up, they'll give you a new kit at no
    charge, this would be something to check into.
    
    
    
    Royce

     Definately check around for prices. Some companys offer 15' wide
    materials too! When I used to install for my father -in-law, we
    would open the roll in the kitchen and then rough cut it in. Then
    we would peel one corner back halfway across the kitchen and cement
    it, making sure not to fold the lino...this will show after the
    cement cures. Then peel the other corner back and cement. Use a
    trowel with the smallest teeth you can find. Roll out air bubbles
    between steps. We used to use a fifty pound roller that worked fine.
    If you have to make a seam, cement the largest piece of lino up
    to where the seam will go, then cement 2 or 3 inches beyond where
    the seam will go. Now overlap the lino and match the pattern (if
    there is one) and rough cut the piece in. After you have matched
    the pattern the best you can, cut through both layers of linolium
    and make 6inch cuts every 2 or 3 feet and cut away excess pieces
    and press down. If you buy a floor with a pattern, try and find
    one with squares or something that resembles a grout line. Make
    your seams on these lines and they will be virtually invisible.
    Put your seams on low traffic areas...under appliances or near a
    wall. Allow the cement to dry for 24-48 hours before putting your
    appliances back!!! My refrigerator left dents in the floor where
    we rolled it back onto place. Make sure you use overlap metal at
    the doorways. BTW... My brother-in-law installs/sells linolium,
    tile, and carpet in the Worcester area and will travel within 
    Massechusetts. He is more reasonable than any floor-covering buis-
    ness in the area. His name is Skip Brown and you can reach him at
    853-0426 nights..........good luck!
                                         /Brian

    I'm not trying to get an argument going about sheet goods vs ceramic
    tile, but you really ought to seriously consider using REAL tile.
    At 15-20$ sq yd plus misc materials, sheet goods are no less expensive
    than ceramics until you look at labor charges.
    
    The advantage you get with GOOD (where good .ne. expensive) ceramics
    is that during installation, you can more gracefully deal with
    mistakes. If you screw up the cut of a 8"x8" tile, no sweat. Maybe
    the piece can be cut more later on to fit somewhere else or maybe
    you throw it out. If you screw up the cut on sheet goods ... yuch.
    Maybe you can make it look good to someone else, but YOU'LL always
    know its botched and the little mistake that has to be pointed out
    to someone else will SCREAM at you every day.
    
    Ceramic tile takes no more skill than laying sheet goods, but it
    does require more simple labor. IT ADDS VALUE TO YOUR HOUSE much
    more than sheet goods.
    
    If you either stick with american made ceramics or know what to
    look for in imported stuff, you'll have something, when done, that's
    MORE bullet proof than sheet goods. Steer clear of:
    
    * quarry tile, slate or any other non-sealed surface. If you have
    		to seal it (which you can with slate, quarry, etc.),
    		that's going to be a LOT of work every year or two
    		unless you refuse to allow people to really use the
    		kitchen. If you like the natural look (unsealed), be
    		prepared to live with grunge, grease stains and a 
    		permanent dirty look.
    
    * imported terra cotta ala nice looking natural-type mexican tiles
    		or belgian paving stone effects. This stuff is great
    		for a patio, where you can live with the uneven surface
    		and the UNEVEN WEAR uneven surfaces give you. This stuff
    		also has inconsistent fired glossy surface...
    
    * very high gloss, designer style tile. Great look on vertical surfaces
    		and some low traffic areas (which a kitchen is not).
    		A lot of this stuff tends to be imported from Italy,
    		where they are very creative. However, the packaging
    		doesn't always warn you the stuff is too thin to put
    		up with a lot of vibration or dropped objects (it
    		cracks a lot). It also doesn't warn you about quality
    		problems that lead to air bubbles and so forth that
    		constitute hidden flaws. Beware...
    
    Buy either first class (15-20$ sq yd) american tile made for kitchens
    with a thick baked gloss surface OR read up and carefully study
    the fancier foreign stuff to find both outrageously good design
    concepts AND durability.
    
    Go ceramic. You'll love it! I've relaid major parts of two floors
    and there is a lot of work involved. But it's worth it. You're redoing
    the entire kitchen: lighting, fixtures, cabinets. Do the floor right
    too.

If you do decide to go with vinyl, you ought to consider putting it down before 
you put in the cabinets.  It will only raise the cabinets about 1/8", and 
you'll have a heck of a lot less scribing and fitting to do.

If you think about ceramics, make sure that the floor is stiff enough.  The 
joists should be overbuilt (NO spring if you jump in the center of the floor), 
and the plywood (assuming 16" centers) should be at least 1" thick total.  If 
the floor flexes at all, ceramic tile will crack.

Paul

    Re .8   I agree that ceramic tile looks better, adds more value,
    and wears better than most sheet goods.
    
    But at least for me, I find installation very very timeconsuming.
    The mortar base has to be applied very carefully (too much and it
    oozes out between the tiles, too little and the bond is no good).
    Cutting odd shapes at doorways etc with nibblers is painfully slow
    and error prone. And grouting takes forever to do and even longer
    to clean up.
    
    I suppose that with practice, the overhead would go down, but I
    found it took forever - not hard, just long.
    

    re: .8
    
    Just a thought.
    
    The ceramic tile will take a lot longer to install, but considering how
    long a floor lasts and how much less I like plastic, it seems worth it
    to me.  Resale value might be better, too.
    
    -joet

      Just in case you buy the spacers that go in between the tiles......
    They work great for even spaces... but you should take them out
    before you grout because the grout won't stick to these plastic
    spacers.
               /BB

    I've never had a problem with grout not sticking to the plastic
    spacers.  I've always left them in.
    I've never installed a sheet floor.  But I don't think the added
    time to install a tile floor should be a factor.  You can lay a
    ceramic tile floor for a 12x12 room in an afternoon and grout it
    in 2 hours.  It couldn't be much less than that for a single sheet
    floor.
    I also want to stress the importance of a solid subfloor and strong
    joists under a ceramic floor so that the grout doesn't break up.
    It doesn't take much to cause the grout to start cracking.
    

    We just finished our kitchen. We went to ColorTile (same folks as
    Radio Shack). We purchased self stick tiles and are verv pleased
    with the floor.
    
    Some advise. The subflooring works better if you staple it every
    6 inches in squares. Use glue as well as the peel and stick tiles;
    you're guaranteed the bond. Buy only the full boxes. The loose tiles
    will warp and dry out on the edges so that you get a ripple effect.
    Do the tile setting on a WARM day. The tile are a lot easier to
    work with. We did ours when it was 28 degrees outside and it was
    a dog to fit the cuts in the corners.
    
    \cal hoe
    

    
    Well, I've got the old floor up.  What a lousy job.  It was like
    a course in the history of flooring.  There were two layers over
    1/8 cardboard material and two layers under it!  The person who
    installed the sub floor did a good job and used lots of nails. 
    It took about 5 hours for the two of us.
    	I have to install a sub floor before I put the cabinets down.
    The floor is 3 inch tongue and groove douglas fir and is pretty
    cupped and poorly patched.  I talked to a couple of installers this
    weekend and got the following advice:
    
    	1) Put down 3/8 or 1/2 Luan or CDX plywood subfloor before 
    	installing the cabinets
    	2) Nail every 3" along the edge, 6" in the middle of the sheet
    	3) Space the sheets of plywood 1/8 apart to allow for expansion
    	4) Have the vinyl flooring installed after the cabinets are
    	down.  It is more difficult to put down but is easier to take
    	it up again if it is installed around rather than under the
    	cabinets
           	Any other words of wisdom?
    
    	The price of the Armstrong flooring we chose is about $16 yard.
    The installers get about $300 to put down the plywood and about
    $150 to put down the vinyl.  I'm going to put in the plywood.
    	The prices are all about the same at the places I've checked.
    The main difference is the confidence you have in the installation.
	Thanks for all the advice.
    					=Ralph=
    

    We had a sheet floor put in our kitchen by a pro.  It took one person
    a couple of hours and it was done.  I put down the luan.  Nailed
    it every 3 inches along the edge and 4 inches inside.  In the bathroom
    and the pantry I used the armstrong 12"x12" self stick tiles.  I
    love them and plan on doing my kitchen over again with them (over
    the years the floor in my kitchen has been destroyed).  If you go
    with tile, Make sure the boxes of tiles all have tthe same lot number.
    One more word of advice, when we were looking at sheet floors, we
    picked out the one we liked the best, 2nd best, and 3rd best.  We
    brought a small sample of each one home, set them down next to the
    wall, and found that the one we liked the best looked terrible when
    matched with our paneling and wallpaper.  Our third choise in the
    store was the one we ended up getting because it looked best in
    our house.
    
    chris d.

      For those of you contemplating ceramic floors.....get everyone
    in the family slippers...........they'll need them!

    I just bought a home, and the kitchen has got to go.
    I plan to put in new cabinets and vynil flooring. 
    After replacing the subflooring, is it better to install
    the cabinets first or the vynil (I read mixed reviews)?
    Also, How can I tell if the old 14 year old vynil contains
    asbestos?
    
    	New to notes,
    	Jeffrey Friedberg (296-6630)
    

    re -1   The advice I have gotten so far suggests putting the cabinets
    in first and then putting down underlayment.  The rationale was
    that the underlayment would cover any gaps caused by shimming the
    cabinets to a level state and the underlayment  would be easier to 
    remove for the next re-flooring.
    
    Kevin
    

    
    
    I like the idea of installing the squares of tiles just because
    if you happen to cut the tile somewhere....(like when you move your
    refrigerator and didn't bother to lift the leveler pads)...you can
    just replace a tile instead of having to live with a floor with
    a big gash in it!...
    
    Good Luck!
     

On the other hand, vinyl tiles are the least durable type of kitchen floor.  
I've talked to installers who said that the worst warped, cracked, and rotted
floors and underlayment were all vinyl tile.  There's simply no way to 
effectively seal all the cracks, and if moisture is ever going to get on the 
floor, it's also going to get in and under it.  It is cheaper, and very easy to 
install yourself, though.  And of course the installer may have been telling me 
all this for precisely that reason - he wanted me to consider sheet flooring 
because then he could install it.  Take it for what you will.

Paul

    
    	Tom's note about tile flooring got me interested enough to check
    out a few tile places.  It seems that since my house is old and
    the floor is not level, just putting down a new plywood subfloor
    would not be good enough for a ceramic tile floor.  They said that
    I would need a 'mud job', that is pouring a layer of cement to level
    off the floor before the ceramic tiles go down.  Keep in mind that
    these people were tile installers and never have seen the floor.
    	How do you know if your floor is level enough not to need a
    mud job?  Am I being hosed again?  If we can't go with ceramic we
    will go with Armstrong Soleriam vinyl at $15 yard.  They will install
    it for about $150, NOT including the subfloor.
                                                  
    				waiting for the building inspector,
    					=Ralph= 

    It's normal (preferred) to install heavy-duty tiles (those used in
    kitchens and entry ways) on a mortar base.  Mortar allows the large
    tiles to be completely set in something solid, something a mastic
    adhesive wouldn't do.   The solid base will prevent small
    irregularities in the tile and floor from becoming "pivot points".
    Pivot points will allow the tile to rock and come loose.  This is
    the most common cause of broken tiles (aside from dropping pots
    and pans on them).  

Re: .23

>>> This is the most common cause of broken tiles (aside from dropping pots
    and pans on them).  


	I've heard that this is a problem with putting a ceramic floor in a 
kitchen- if you drop something on it there's a good chance you will break a 
tile.  Is this true or are ceramic floors durable enough to withstand the 
multitude of pots, pans and other assorted utensils that get dropped?

George

>    Is this true or are ceramic floors durable enough to withstand the 
>multitude of pots, pans and other assorted utensils that get dropped?
    
    I know my ceramic tiles will crack if I drop a heavy pot on them.
    If it drops near the edge of a tile it would probably chip. (the
    tile, not the pot).
    

    Mud jobs are what has been traditionally used by tile installers.
    Nowadays, hi-tech epoxy mortar mixes are used, but are more expensive
    per sq ft.  The epoxy along with latex additives for the grout
    actually allow the ceramic floor to give a little which minimizes
    tile/grout cracking.
    
    As far as breaking tiles when you drop pots on them, it all depends
    on the grade of tile you get.  Each tile is rated from light to
    heavy usage (sometimes numbered from 1 to 5) where the lightest
    tile used is for the wall.  Heavy duty tiles will not crack from
    a pot being dropped on it and chances are that the pot will need
    a visit to the body shop.
    
    -al

    
    I should hope that the tiles won't crack when dropping a pot on
    them.  I've worked in several restaurants and all of them have tile
    floors.  Many times the big (read: 20x36 aluminum stock put @40lbs)
    pots get dropped and dragged around.  Never seen one of them chip.
    Perhaps this is the type of floor tile you want, and they don't
    look all that bad either.
    
    						.dave.
    

    Look at the thickness of a #5 tile and you'll understand.   They're
    about 3/4 inch thick.   Set on mortar, nothing should crack them.
    But, they can chip.

    I'm having new cabinets installed and I decided to rip up the floor.
    Still can't figure out from this note whether I should put the floor
    down before or after the cabinest, but anyway... I'm now left with
    gross black sticky stuff on my floor.  The floor place sez that
    it can't be sanded and that, left alone, will eventually stick on
    and off (making muchos noise) and will seep up through the floor.
    It was suggested placing some sort of felt over it, using baby powder
    to get rid if the stickiness.
    
    What's the right way to do this?  Should I rip up the floor?  Looks
    like 1/2" on top of the subfloor.  Doesn't look too hard to put
    down but will  be a ^%$#^% to get up (lots of screw nails!).
    
    Chris

    
    RE .29
    
    	RIP IT UP!!  No matter what type of flooring you will put down
    it is going to cost $500-1000.  Do you want to spent that kind of
    money to put down a floor over a questionable base?  The height
    of the existing floor is also a concern.  After a few more layers
    of flooring you'll need a step ladder to get into the kitchen. 
    It is a lousy job, but you don't have to be a finish carpenter.
    Buy a couple of stanley Wonderbars and invite your friends over.
    	I'm putting the subfloor down BEFORE the cabinets.  I'll save
    about $300 putting the floor down by myself.  It is a lot easier
    to install it in a square room than around the cabinets.  
    	I need more info on ceramic flooring.  Can I do it myself? 
    I'm putting down 3/8 CDX plywood as a subfloor.  The floor will
    not be perfectly level, but I really don't care.  Can I put it down
    myself and have the tiles not crack as I walk over them?
                                                       
    					=Ralph=

Yes, you can do ceramic tile yourself, but you should probably use thicker 
plywood.  Assuming that you have �" plywood down already, on 16" centers, that 
will be a total of 7/8".  Most recommendations that I've seen are for a MINIMUM 
of 1" of plywood.  In our kitchen, we built the floor specifically to take tile
(hopefully the tile will go down in a couple of months).  It's a 12' span, with 
2x12 joists on 12" centers, with 3/4" T&G plywood as a subfloor, and I'm going 
to put down another 3/8".  If I were you I'd put down AT LEAST 5/8", and maybe 
3/4".  I'd rather have the floor �" higher than have it crack.

Paul

    I admit this is a bit late but FYI. We just had a new armstrong
    type floor installed in the kitchen. The installers told us that
    if we need to move the fridge, to roll it onto a piece of plywood
    so that big cuts and indentations are not produced in the
    linoleum...
    
        jeff

                Could be  I missed it - (it wouldn't be the first 
                time):
                
                I  need to  replace  my  kitchen  linoleum  floor 
                (cracked at the seams  and  generally  worn).   I 
                don't know the first thing about floors.  
                
                Can   somebody  give  me  a    comparison    (not 
                necessarily price) in vinyl, Solarium, Congolium, 
                etc.  I want to put something down that will last 
                and  will handle high traffic.  Installation will 
                be  professional    (I'm    *not*   moving  those 
                appliances myself !!). 8-)
                
                Thanks alot,
                
                Warren

    As long as you are just starting to think about it, there are some
    other options  (1) I/O or industrial carpeting, and (2) ceramic
    tile.
    
    This is just a personal opinion, but most sheet flooring turns me
    off.  Even the good stuff is fake embossed/imprinted to look like
    something else.  I'd rather have the something else. 

                Yes, we  have considered other options, but since 
                it's my wife who lives in the kitchen, her choice 
                will stand.
                
                In the meantime, all  the  dealers  we've been to 
                have told us conflicting things:
                
                1. You have to lay new subflooring,
                2. Spiked heals will go through that stuff
                3. We can't pull up the old flooring - asbestos
                4. Lay new subflooring over the old linoleum
                5. Etc, etc. etc.
                
                What I would really like  to know is what are the 
                advantages/disadvantages  and    attributes    of 
                various  types  of  vinyl  flooring.    How  does 
                Congoleum differ from Solarium, etc ?
                
                The dealers are confusing the hell out of me.
                
                Thanks again,
                
                Warren

    I've just read through the wholeof this note .. a lot of good stuff
    here.  You have convincerd me that when we finally rip out the ugly
    brown vinyl from out kitchen, we should go with ceramic tile.  The
    floor is a slab, so there is no spring in it.
    
    But this is what I found out about vinyl when we did our last house:
    
    	(1) Get inlaid color.  What this means is that the color in
    the pattern goes right through the floor,  So, when you gouge it,
    the mark doesn't show much.  The cheaper ones have a thin layer
    of color on top.
    
    	(2) If you want a shine, prepare to wax it.  The no wax foors
    will stay shiny for six months or a year before the gloss wears
    off.  You may as well buy the kind that needs to be waxed in the
    first place.
    
    	(3) Like carpet, you can get remnants and roll-ends of vinyl.
    At less than half the regular price.  The choice is a little more
    limited, of course.
    
    	(4) The armstrong cleaners and shiners are the ones to use.
     Most of the floor cleaners at the drug store are a waste of money.
                    

    	I just finished with the vinyl floor scene as part of my now
    completed kitchen renovation project.  The information is confusing
    and contradictory from the different flooring stores.  Here is what
    *I* believe to be true.
    	I was told horror stories about asbestos in removing old floors.
    Some went as far as to say that it was illegal to remove old flooring.
    There was NO way that I was going to put a $1000  floor over two
    peeling layers of old stuff.  I put fans in the windows, wet down
    the floor and removed two to three layers of vinyl tiles and subfloor.
    With all of the old flooring off I was able to use a 1/2" subfloor
    with out height problems under doors.  The flooring stores just
    wanted to bang down thin luan over the existing stuff.  It is my
    understanding that you must put down some type of subfloor before
    new flooring.  I put down the 1/2" PTS CDX plywood myself nailing
    every 4" on an edge and 8" in the center.  You don't have to have
    a large kitchen before this becomes a real pain in the knees!  If
    I were to do it again I would rent a power nailer.  The flooring
    store wanted $250 to put down plywood, it cost me $120 in materials.
    	I am not sure there is any difference between the three major
    brands of flooring.  The store that I bought at did not like Armstrong,
    but did like Mannington (which I chose) and Congolumn.  I think
    their choice is related more to profit margins than quality.  Prices
    on the stuff is $14-30 per square yard depending on pattern and
    layer thickness.  The prices on a pattern were +/- $2 at every store
    that I went to.  Don't let them snow you with information about
    wear layers.  Even the cheapest floor will last 10 years.  The main
    reason floors fail is due to ripping when moving appliances.  After
    ten years you will be sick of the flooring anyway.  
    	I did not get involved with color or pattern selection, but
    we were warned against white.  Residue from road tar stains the
    white and white floors yellow fast.
    	The most important part is finding an installer that you trust.
    I watched him put it down and was convinced that it is not a DIY
    job.  If my kitchen was square and less than 12' I might try it.
    Find a store that backs its work and uses the same installer every
    time.  
    	The total cost for the floor & installation was $750 not including
    the plywood.  It is expensive but looks really nice.
    
    						=Ralph=
    

    So, can anyone recommend (from 1st hand experience) any professional
    installers in the Nashua area?   For vinyl sheet flooring, that
    is...
    
    Thanks,
    -Dave  (who currently has the whole house EXCEPT for the kitchen
	    torn up)

	re: .-1

		...and if you're a smoker, resist the urge while
doing this.
		I agree, this method will probably leave you feeling
the happiest..8^]..

    
    Does anyone have an opinion on self-stick linoleum tiles?  Do
    they stick as well as the kind where glue is needed?
    
    						- Ted

RE:1473.0 
    
	Hi Ted-

	     At first I was skeptical about the self-stick but having done
	three floors in an institutional facility one room a bathroom.  I
	am indeed impressed.  All three holding up well one to two years 
	later (the bath is two years).  The key is preparation as long as
	the base is clean and relatively flat the self-stick tiles work	
	real well.  I believe there are instances where the glue down tiles
	still are best but I believe this would be a very high traffic area
	more so than a house.

	     Go for the self-stick.

	Randy

    
    I used them in a kitchen and found out the hard way that::
    
    1 - they stick to anything but the floor real well. 
    once the skin is off never, ever, never, put them together back to 
    back and don't set it down on top of an already laid tile sticky
    side down. don't peel off more than one at a time. If you have any
    cutting or trimming to do do it with the skin on. 
    
    2 - the floor MUST be absolutely clean and smooth and flat and dry.
    fill in gaps and level the floor so there are no sharp bends in
    the tile and no major bumps. get up ALL the dust. vacuum sweep damp
    mop what ever you have to do but get that surface clean and dry.
    
    3 - once stuck don't plan on using it again.
    if you lay a tile down and it sticks you may have pulled off enough
    of the adhesive to leave a bald spot. Check it very carefully.
    especially the edges.
    
    4 - roll it on.
    when you are done with the floor or are going to quit for more
    than a couple of hours go over the tiles with a roller just like
    anyother floor. 
    
    The major advantage to the peel-n-stick is that there is no cement
    being tracked through the rest of the house and no stink from the
    cement in the house. the major disadvantage is that if they are
    not done right the first time ie. clean smooth surface and well
    rolled. they do tend to lift after a time especially in high traffic
    areas or where there is going to be a lot of water spilled.
    
    Have fun.
    
    Steve
    

RE:1473.2 
    
	Agreed in all instances except sticking to floor at least I had no
	problem.

	One thing I forgot to mention is temperature, make sure the temperature
	in the room is within the range specified on the box as well as the
	tiles themselves.  If its to cold the glue will not work as well and
	the tile will be very brittle.

	Since we are talking tips one I found extremely useful for tile was
	a contour gauge for tile around door moldings etc.  Being able to 
	transfer the contour to the tile and then snip with aviation snips
	looked a lot better than eyeballing it.

	Good Luck Randy

    I've used both self-stick and you-stick tiles.  Agree with previous
    replies; however, I never found the adhesive application to be
    difficult. The fact that you can do a bit of gap filling by varying
    the goop thickness, and can move the tile around for alignment once it's
    down are BIG advantages.

    Also, for bathrooms or kitchens, I'd feel very uncomfortable with
    self-stick - water standing on the floor is not a great environment
    for vinyl tile at best, but the goop-it-yourself will ooze into
    the cracks between the tiles and provide just a little extra protection
    against water getting under the tiles.
    
    One more thing - it takes a fair time (at least overnight) for the
    goop to dry.  If you can't keep traffic away that long, self stick
    is usable sooner (immediately?).
     

    I helped put down a peel-and-stick floor in my Mom's house about
    15 years ago.  She has not replaced it yet.  We never had any problems
    with water on it, etc.  A good wax will take care of that problem.
    It was incredibly easy and fast.  I would be hard-pressed to find
    a reason to do the goop-it-yourself method with this stuff around.
    
    Rob

	One problem I noticed, when I did that institution bathroom mentioned
	in a previous reply to this note, was in trying to find nice i.e. non-
	institution looking floor tiles, in a glue down tile.  There is a very
	limited selection of other than self-stick lino/vinyl tiles available
	and I looked in a lot of places.

	Any body else experience this?

	Randy

    I installed a self-stick tile floor in my kitchen about 4 years
    ago and haven't had any problems with it since, at least none that
    I didn't cause myself.  At first I tried to remove the vinyl-asbestos
    flooring that was there but that was a mistake.  Rather than expose
    myself to the asbestos, I should have just nailed the 1/4" luan
    mahogany underlayment over it and proceded from there. The tiles
    are nice and square and fit VERY well together, with no glue oozing
    up between the joints. 
    
    Mistake #1.  When I came to a doorway off the kitchen I laid half-
    tiles up to the threshhold with the intention of replacing the halves
    when I got around to finishing the floor into the next room.  A
    couple of days later it was next to impossible to remove the temporary
    tiles without also lifting most of the veneer off the underlay plywood.
    
    Mistake #2.  At another door threshhold the last tile overhung the
    underlayment by about 1/4" to 1/2". I didn't think this little bit
    would make a difference.  Unfortunately, within a couple of days
    the brittle tile had broken up completely.  Moral: fill ALL voids
    with some sort of leveling compound, such as "Level Best".  
    
    One other point. Use underlayment plywood rather than a cheaper
    grade.  The underlay is specified to have no voids into which a
    high heel or a chair leg might sink.
    
    Dave
        

    P.S. to .-1
    
    Another warning which might apply to any kind of tiles.
    
    At first, I laid the tiles according to the directional arrows
    printed on the back sides. After half a dozen tiles were in
    place, I noticed that there was a definite pattern of light and
    dark running from one tile to the next. After that, I made an effort
    to randomize the orientation of the tiles and the rest of the floor
    is fine.
                             
    Dave

    		The self stick tiles stick fine.Seal the subfloor so
    the adhesive from the tile isn't absorbed into the subfloor.Heating
    the tiles with a hairdryer makes them a lot stickier,but I don't
    recall if I found this to be an advantage.
    		I did find hairline cracks around some of the subfloor
    nails in high traffic areas.I didn't bother to patch over the
    nails when I nailed down the subfloor.I suspect that was the cause
    althougt it's possible I banged a few of the nails n-1 times.
    
    Mike

    I used them once. Whebn they were installed they looked great, but
    after a while i noticed that they separated slightly, leaving small
    but noticeable, seams/cracks.  

 I want to replace the tiles in my kitchen this winter.  
 They're in great shape, but I can't stand the pattern
 or color. (They hide dirt really well -- by making the 
 floor always look dirty).  They weren't my choice -- 
 they may not have even been the choice of the previous owner.

 ANYWAY, all this talk about needing the subfloor 
 absolutely dry and flat has me worried.  What am I likely 
 to find when I pry those critters up?  Will self-stick tile
 stick to a place that's got old tile stick gook on it?
 Am I going to have to put down new subfloor? (seems a little
 extreme ;^)  

	Beth 

    With the kitchen I mentioned in .5, we didn't bother pulling up
    the old tile floor.  The fact that the floor was a concrete slab
    may have been a factor in how well the floor has held up over the
    years.  You CAN put it down over the existing tile as long as it
    is smooth.  I'm not sure, but I'd guess that the peel-and-stick
    glue would stick to tile better than it would to other surfaces
    (e.g. plywood).

    We have Armstrong NoWax tile on the floor of our kitchen.  We have
    not waxed it since installing it about 9 years ago.  It still has
    a nice shine but it is yellowing and using standard household cleaners
    does not seem to get rid of the yellow.  Any suggestions?

    Armstrong makes a complete line of cleaning/waxing products for
    all their floors.  We have found on our Armstrong floors that Armstrong
    products really do work the best of everything we have tried.  The
    only drawback is that they are very expensive.  We get our cleaner
    at either the carpet place which sold us the floor or Somerville
    Lumber in Westboro, Ma.
    
    Carol

    Just tried some Armstrong cleaner (New Beginnings) and the tile
    is still yellow (lighter shade) after 3 applications.

    I have a floor that's turning yellow, too, and it's about 6 years
    old.  I wondered if it was defective, and perhaps I could get
    Armstrong to replace it?
    

    Any comments on installing a piece of congoleum over a cement floor?
    Would I be better off installing a wood subfloor and then installing
    the flooring over that?
    
    -Peter
    

    HI,
    
      I have a three family house that I bought about 2 1/2 years ago
    and now I am moving into the third floor.  I have very old baige
    color tiles on the floor though the house.  The tiles are fine for
    the kitchen but everywhere else looks awful.  I was wondering if
    there a such a tile or some heavy type nanolium to look like hard
    wood floors.  I am a lover of hard wood floors and with this apartment
    this look would add such a depth to the place.  If not I might go
    wall to wall carpet but rather go with the look of hard wood.
    
                                c.r.person
    

    
    Your best bet is Bruce hardwood floor covering.  It's not linolium.
    I think it real wood with a finish that can be installed easily.
    
    You will not find anything that made from linolium that will look
    like real wood.  You can buy this at Color Tile.
    
    - Ted
    

    I was in a floor covering store this weekend and was amazed to see
    two or three styles of ceramic tile.  One looked like regular hardwood
    floor, another looked liked parquet.  I didn't notice the brand
    names because I'm not in the market for ceramic tile floors, but
    you might want to look into these.
    
    Elaine

    Yesterday on CH 11 They had a "Bob and Norm" special where the used
    the "floating hardward" floor.
    
    The laminated wood panels a glued together and then layed on a foam
    mat.
    
    I priced this stuff in Chagnons in Nashua recently and it run ~$4.00
    sq foot.
    
    I plan on using it this comming spring in my hall and kitchen.
    
    David.
    
    BTW the kitchen floor (beech wood) shown in the show looked great.
    I videotaped it all if you want to see it. (VHS).
    
    

	What would happen if I tried to put a new vinyl floor over an old vinyl
	floor?  All of the notes seem to indicate that the old floor should be
	taken up, luan put down and then the new vinyl.  Is this posilutely 
	necessary?  The old floor is actually in great shape, I just happen to
	hate that shade of yellow/green.

    Re .39
    
    Is the existing flooring textured?  Unless it's perfectly smooth
    I'd say (based on personal experience) DON'T DO IT!  
    
    When we remodeled our kitchen the installers of the vinyl flooring
    put it on top of the existing flooring.  (The original floor was
    Armstrong Solariam (sp?) square tiles - the new vinyl flooring I
    selected was Armstrong Congolium which has a slight cushioning
    effect.)  Shortly after it was installed I could see the texture
    pattern from the old tiles - sort of looks like it's etched in the
    floor.  Nobody else notices but it drives me crazy - to the point
    I hate the floor.
    
    Considering all the money we spent on the kitchen we didn't try
    to cut corners on the flooring.  We followed the advice of the
    installer who apparently took it upon himself to save us a few
    bucks.  As the saying goes..."had I known then what I know now".
    
    Evelyn

	I *think* it has a slight texture pattern to it.  It's not smooth,
	that's for sure.  Does it really show through or does it have to be
	pointed out to be noticed?

    Re .41
    
    I guess everything's subjective...to me it stands out like a sore
    thumb.  (If you're ever in the vicinity of Framingham MA give me
    a call - I'd be glad to show you and let you judge for yourself.)
    I suspect the effect is further exacerbated by the color (light
    beige - never again but that's another story) and the high gloss
    of the no-wax finish).
    
    What you may want to do is get a piece of the vinyl you're thinking
    of installing and laying it down on the existing vinyl in a high
    traffic area.  Then forget it's there for a few weeks (provided
    you haven't tripped and broken your neck on it :^) and then carefully
    examine the vinyl to see how it has held up and if any pattern from
    the existing flooring shows through.  
    
    Good luck with whatever you decide - keep us posted!
    
    Evelyn

    
    This may be a stupid question, but here goes. How do I make a floor
    level enough to lay ceramic tile in my bathroom without jacking
    the house up from the cellar. Ther is some settling near the
    doorway and it also extends maybe 3 ft  into the bathroom. I plan
    on replacing the particle board subfloor with �" luan plywood, but
    I am not sure what method I should use to make it level. Any
    suggestions????
    
    						rb%-)
    

>        doorway and it also extends maybe 3 ft  into the bathroom. I plan
>    on replacing the particle board subfloor with �" luan plywood, but
>    I am not sure what method I should use to make it level. Any
>    suggestions????
    
    Are you sure its particle board and not plywood?  Is it damaged?
    Sometimes you can put the luan right over the existing subfloor.
    How will the difference in thickness work out?  Check out the thousand
    previous replies about floor prep for tiling.
    
    As for leveling, I believe there is stuff called, what else, floor
    leveler!  Never used it but I think its some kind of powder you
    mix up with water.  After that who knows...

    Phil

    We are in the process of looking for a new linoleum for our kitchen
    floor.
    One salesman suggested we put the new linoleum right over the current
    linoleum.
    Our home is 10 yrs old.  The salesman stated that there could be
    some asbestos under our current linoleum and that it would be more
    harmful removing it.
    
    questions:
    
    Should we remove the current linoleum and put in a new subfloor?
    
    Surely would be more expensive, is it worth the added cost? 
    
    Should we cover the old with the new?
    
    How will it look in 10 yrs? Will it buckle or who knows what....?
    
    Thanks for your opinions!
    
    

    
    I think your question has been discussed elsewhere. Did you check
    1111.1 to see the directory of keys?  I bet you would find lots
    of help under FLOORING or TILING.
    
    

    I didn't reply to any of the other earlier notes, so I'll do it
    here.  We used an option you didn't mention, which is to put a subfloor
    over the old linoleum.
    
    Clay

>    Should we remove the current linoleum and put in a new subfloor?
>    Surely would be more expensive, is it worth the added cost? 
>    Should we cover the old with the new?
>    How will it look in 10 yrs? Will it buckle or who knows what....?

First, this is all sheet vinyl right?  I believe the asbestos is 'embeded'
and so the floor should not be sanded without precautions.  If it's glued
it's not coming up and if it's not, it's easy to remove. 

Assuming it's glued down, putting a new floor on top is fine as long as 
the original provides a sound base.  This would include not moving or being 
torn, but still, repairing with some scrap is less trouble than redoing the 
subfloor.  Replacing the subfloor is like a roof, I believe, it can't be 
piled on forever (when your head touches the ceiling it's time to get back
down to the real thing). 

Craig

    There was a discussion about putting vinyl flooring over existing
    floor covering in Notes 726.39-726.42.  
    
    Based on my dissatisfaction with the end result I will NEVER do
    it again.
    
    Evelyn

    I've read through all (I think) notes related to vinyl flooring.
    If the "definitive" answer to this question was given, I missed
    it.
    
    I'm about to install new sheet vinyl flooring in our bathroom. Does
    the old (textured) vinyl *have* to be ripped up, or can I put down
    1/4" luan over it? Also, should the screw heads be puttied over?
    (I plan on using drywall screws.) It seems to me that if the textured
    floor will show through, so will the screw indentations.
    
    It should be noted that the existing vinyl is curled up near the
    tub and behind the toilet.

    you can do it this way or even 1/8th inch luan I'm not sure if I
    would use drywall screws why not underlayment nails. YES putty 
    over them and along any joints.
     paul

    	 Use the drywall screws and 1/4" underlayment. Underlayment
    	nails have a very bad habit of popping up once in a while and
    	showing through the vinyl flooring.

    in the bathroom we redid - the tile guy:
    
    	1.	took up the old vinyl tile where necessary (rot)
    
    	2.	replaced the plywood sub floor where necessary (rot)
    
    	3.	put down a cement slab - levelled CAREFULLY
    
    	4.	then tiled
    
    
    		-Barry-
    

    re .21
    
    	we put down ceramic tile BTW
    
    -Barry-
    

This is a new question I think; I checked the files about a week 
ago & found nothing on this particular vinyl flooring problem. 

I want to install new sheet vinyl on my kitchen floor. Simple
start, but now it gets complicated. The kitchen already has TWO
layers of vinyl sheet flooring. I want to remove the top layer &
leave the bottom layer. Is this something that can be done by a
relatively handy DIYer or is it a job for a professional only. 

Here's the status: The first layer (bottom) is a hard vinyl and
was installed by the builder. It is very well glued & I don't
think it practical for me to even try to take this up. I'm pretty
sure this layer extends under the cabinets. (I see large electric
sanders, moving cabinets, & too many problems in my future if I
try this.) 

The second (top) layer is a softer vinyl and was installed by
previous owners. It's a single sheet (as far as I can tell) and
is glued directly on top of the first sheet. There are a few
places where the glue has lost is binding quality.

QUESTION: has anybody taken up only a top layer of vinyl kitchen
flooring and left a bottom layer intact? Any hints for somebody
who hasn't done this before? How much trouble is it? 

Before anybody asks - I cannot simply add another layer; the
kitchen design prohibits this. The kitchen overlooks the family
room with a wooden lip (border) and wrought iron railing running
the length of this side. Another layer of sheeting would stick
above this lip. 

Thanks for any help.

Jim

Depending on the age of two coverings, you could be dealing with material
    that contains asbestos.  That's why most flooring installers won'
    mess with the existing floor.  They usually just put down quarter
    inch plywood and then the new covering.  Since this is not practical
    for you, you might need some professional advice about the makeup
    of the existing floors.  If its asbestos, you might want to consider
    not doing it yourself.
    
    Bob    

RE: .1 by PBA::MARCHETTI >

>Depending on the age of two coverings, you could be dealing with material
>    that contains asbestos.  

Thanks for reminding me about the potential asbestos problem. 
This has been discussed in the other notes about vinyl flooring, 
but don't recall anybody stating when the switch to non-asbestos
occurred. Anybody know? 

I meant to mention the age but forgot. The house was built in
'69-70. 

I suspect the bottom layer, put down when the house was built,
does have asbestos. It's a harder vinyl that I associate with the
kind having asbestos. 

The top layer was put down sometime around '76-'77. I don't know
for sure, but suspect that this does not contain asbestos.

> you might need some professional advice about the makeup
>    of the existing floors.  

Besides looking for little grey fibers, is there any way a DIYer
can tell if asbestos is present? Any chemists out there? Is there 
a test for asbestos that a DIYer can perform?

Jim

    I faced the same problem two years ago. The kitchen originally had
    an Avacado green tile. Then they layed the Armstrong Solarian vinyl
    over that. The Solarian floor covering were the soft top material
    that tore when we moved the fridge over it. The original owners
    were smokers so the Solarian had ash burns in the kitchen (I guessed
    he used the floor as his ash tray).
    
    I talked over the problem with several floor installers. There's
    an electric chipper that will chip a prespecified depth to remove
    down to the wood floor. The easier way would be to lay a 3/8" Luan
    on top of the vinyl flooring and glue the new stuff to that; net
    total of 1/4" lost of floor to ceiling height.
    
    Don't use particle board. The glue has a hard time setting to it.
    The Luan board is like a masonite board that's water proof. I ended
    stapling the stuff to the original floor.
    
    /cal hoe

    Has anyone out there put another layer of vinyl flooring
    over the old without putting the luan board ? 
    
    What is the consequences of putting one over the other without
    luan board as a buffer ? 
    
    Thanks

    RE: .3 & .4
    
    NIT ALERT.
    
    .3   3/8" + 1/8" for the flooring = 1/2" lost in height not 1/4"
         And anyway the luan that you want is 1/4" not 3/8" so you
         will lose 3/8".
    
    	The main problem with adding underlayment is rarely height to
        the ceiling but the level of adjoing floors, e.g. diningroom.
    
    
    .3 & .4
    
    	"Luan board" is plywood, it has nothing in common with particle
    board or masonite. Luan is a species of tree also known as Phillipine
    Mahogany. The reason the Luan ( LU - ON ) is used for underlayment
    is that the center plys do not have any voids, so there is no danger
    of a spike heel going through. All underlayment has this requirement
    but, due to the nature of the wood it is cheaper with luan. Luan
    is not, however, as structurally sound as fir, hence it is not used
    for sub-flooring or sheathing. It is no more or less water proof
    than any other interior grade plywood (unless you get exterior grade,
    which I'm not sure they make). The "waterproofness" (sic) of plywood
    is dependent on the type of glue, not the species.
    
    Alan
    
    PS  Approriately finished you can make beautiful furniture from
        thicker Luan, that's a small fraction of the price of real
        Mahogany (looks close to the real stuff to)

>Besides looking for little grey fibers, is there any way a DIYer
>can tell if asbestos is present? Any chemists out there? Is there 
>a test for asbestos that a DIYer can perform?

If you are willing to risk experimenting with the stuff, burn a piece. 
Thoroughly. If the remains are fiberous and fireproof, watch out.  Then again,
the asbestos used may be a powder, in which case you wouldn't want to burn it
and risk breathing the dust.

-Mike

RE .3 

Cal, thanks for the suggestion about the chipper. I hope there is 
an easier way to remove only the top layer.

BTW, as explained in .0, I cannot put down a layer of luan, or 
even simply lay a new layer on top of the old. The relationship 
of the kitchen floor to the adjacent family room precludes this.

RE. 6

Mike, good idea and testing for asbestos. I'll take a few small
pieces outside & stand upwind while I proceed to burn some. 

RE. several

I've worked with luan & know what it is. I've used it as a thin, 
strong, good looking plywood for a few things around the house.

******

Back to the original question about removing only the top layer 
of vinyl flooring. How about using a heat gun to weaked the glue 
which binds the top layer to the original layer? Seems to me that 
if I hold the gun in position for just the right amount of time,
I should be able loosen the top layer without bothering the
bottom layer. Now, how to figure out the right amount of time. 

Has anybody used a heat gun to remove vinyl flooring?

How do you think it would work in my situation?

Thanks.

Jim

    
    I've used heat to remove vinyl flooring; I used an iron because
    I didn't have a heat gun at the time.  It was a little slow, but
    not too bad.
    
    On the last floor I did, however, I was still left with uneven amounts
    of tar sticking to the wood floor, which required sanding--a
    frustrating job as the remaining tar would immediately clog the
    sandpaper.
    
    So this takes us to the question of what kind of adhesive you have
    between the first and second layer--hopefully it is very thin so
    that if the heat doesn't remove all of the adhesive, you will still
    have a level surface.
    
    I think I would give it a try (starting in a relatively unobtrusive
    area)--easy for me to say! :-)
    
    

    
    re. 7  I have used a household iron to soften the glue on
    vinyl flooring enough to peel it off. (Suggest you use an
    old one, or buy a new one and trade it for the one you have
    in the house now.)  Then, in spots where I pulled off more 
    than I anticipated (i.e., the layer beneath the top layer 
    which I didn't want to remove) I mixed a bucket of floor 
    leveler to even off the surface.  Then I just laid the new 
    flooring.  Key to the whole project is using a good
    adhesive and renting a roller to smooth out all the air bubbles
    so that the flooring has good contact and adhesion.
    
    Save it for a warm day when you can open up all the doors and
    windows, because the smell will knock you out.  Unless of course,
    you're putting down self-adhesive vinyl tiles.

Asking from ignorance, but I don't imagine that ripping up asbestos tile would
be anywhere near as dangerous as playing with asbestos insulation, since the
asbestos fibers are pretty well bonded inside the tiles, not like the loose
fibers of the insulation.  Might it be poossible to rip it up?

Of course you still have to figure out how to dispose of the stuff!

Jim.

You can (and probably will) get much opinion on this subject.  In all 
reality, none of us really know if it will hurt you or not.  It 
depends on what precautions you take, what kind of tile it is, and how 
much of the fibers come 'un stuck' from the rest of the tile.  Of 
course, you can't see them, so you won't know.  Even if you wear a 
mask, if they do come un-stuck, they will still be in the house.

I read all of the notes in here about it, and then we put ceramic 
tile down over our sheet vinyl (granted it was sheet, I don't know 
what we would have done with vinyl tile).   I guess you are 'supposed' 
to rip it up, but I'd rather not take the chance.   I figure the floor 
is stuck down there, not hurting anyone, don't go messing with it.


It's like radon and smoking, you really don't know if it will be a 
problem to you personally until years from now.  

.10>             -< are asbestos tiles that dangerous to tear up? >-

.10> Asking from ignorance, but I don't imagine that ripping up asbestos tile would
.10> be anywhere near as dangerous as playing with asbestos insulation, since the
.10> asbestos fibers are pretty well bonded inside the tiles, not like the loose
.10> fibers of the insulation.  Might it be poossible to rip it up?
    
    Can't be as bad as what happened at my house last weekend.  I was
    in the basement showing a contractor my chimneys (which are old
    and in poor shape), and he stuck his hand in what use to be a
    stove pipe. Out flew asbestous dust from some old insulation that
    was stuck in there.  If I die of lung cancer we know what
    contributed (since I don't smoke) :^}.
    
    -tm

       

From what I've read, the biggest danger in removing asbestos tiles comes
when you try to get off the glue & junk that wouldn't just peel up.
Are you going to sand it off?  Scrape it off?  Either way, we are
talking lots of free asbestos fibers.  And ordinary masks don't
stop it at all.

	Larry

    To revisit an old topic,
    
    Does anyone have any experience or know how these self-stick tiles
    will work on cement? I've just finished my basement and am leaving
    the floor as-is, that is, I'm adding no sub-floor.
    
    I'm in the southern part of the country and the winters are fairly
    mild so I'm not concerned about the floor being cold. I've experienced
    no moisture problems a 16 months of living here either.
    
    Should I prepare the cement with a sealer?
    
    Grateful for any help.
    
    Manny
    

RE:< Note 1473.13 by SAACT0::HERNANDEZ_M "AVN has it NOW!" >
                         -< will it stick on cement? >-
Yes, maybe.    

	What you need to be concerned most about is moisture. Even 
very small amounts. If the floor is absolutly dry and clean the tiles 
will stick although I'd strongly recommend one of the latex sealers
designed for the application. Go talk to your local tile retailer - 
Colortile or somesuch.  They can tell you how to check for moisture 
(something like taping a small piece of plastic over the area you want 
to cover and checking it a day later) and they will have the 
appropriate sealer.  Don't use thompson's. Although it may seal the 
floor, I don't think tiles would adhere.

Chuck - who tiled a concrete floor last year.

I have a small back stairway (two steps) which is made out of concrete.
Over time it has become badly cracked and chipped. To improve its appearance,
I would like to put a layer of <something> on the top and sides of it.
A couple of options have crossed my mind, and I would love to hear any
pros and cons of my suggestions or any new suggestions. 

Idea 1: surround the whole thing with a new layer of cement. I am not 
all that excited about this idea because cement looks kind boring. If
I were to do it, how thick should the layer be?

Idea 2: Can one use ceramic tile out doors? Is this a totally tasteless
suggestion? I would have to do some leveling of the steps, could I just
use some basic floor leveling compound? or use mortar?

Idea 3: Slate pieces. same leveling question. with this, should I just leave
the sides alone?

I am eagerly awaiting your opnions,

Steve

    Steve, I don't recall the name, but there's a product on the market
    that's made for this very purpose. The people who recently painted
    our house used it on our cement steps and then painted over it.
    It now looks like a brand new set of steps.
    
    Mike

    How about just replacing it?  Seems like the best plan for stability
    and safety, to me.
    
    Sherry

    The only place I have seen this is on a McDonald's on the John Fitch
    Hiway in Fitchburg.  It appears as if they have had Brickface put
    on all the cement walkways and stairs around their building.  I
    call it Brickface - you can see that trowel strokes extend across
    several bricks and if you look VERY closely you'll see that it
    apparently is a layer of grey cement covered with a layer of red
    cement and then some poor slob has to scrape all those lines while
    the red is still somewhat wet so that it looks like bricks.
    
    I was amazed.  It seems to stand up extremely well and it looks
    like real brick.
    

    I would think that "regular" ceramic tiles aren't designed to be used
outdoors, being subject to:  1. a wide range of temperature extremes, and 2.
a good deal of rough treatment from shovels, muddy/salty/gritty boots, etc.
In the same way, fireplace bricks weren't meant to be used in walkways -
different firing techniques or something.
    Maybe there are "outdoor" tiles.  Certainly chimney tiles are exposed to
temperature extremes.
    All in all, I'd think resistance to abrasion and temperature extremes would
be the things to look for.

My mother had that problem with a set of steps at her house.  She hired 
a guy to put quarry tile down on them.  It looked great and five years 
later it still looks great.  To avoid wear on yourself and the stairs, 
you want to use "bull-nose" tiles at the edges of the treads.  Bull-nose 
tile is rounded on one edge, and so prevents you from triping and 
deflects anything that tries to hit the tile edge-on.  

Quarry tile comes in many thicknesses, and I think she picked one that
was the same thickness used in commercial kitchens (designed to survive
having a commercial-size pot full of stuff dropped on it.)  It's pretty
tough stuff -- these stairs are located in a little town north of Concord
NH, so they've been holding up well against temperature extremes.  The
only special treatment they get is that they get shoveled off with a
plastic shovel rather than a metal one.
					>>>==>PStJTT 

I know quarry tile sounds like it should be cut granite, but it's really 
a cast red clay material.  Maybe some of the people better educated in 
materials can tell you why it's called "quarry."  

At any rate, almost any tile store carries some form of it.  It's
available in many sizes and thicknesses.  If you find a good tile place,
you can tell them how you plan to use it and they'll help select the
right thing.  The stuff we used was only about half an inch thick, but
it was very impact resistant. 

It sets like regular tile -- mortar followed by grout.  I'm not sure if
the grout was a special material or not.  We haven't had to regrout
after five years exposure to the weather, so it's pretty sturdy stuff. 
Make sure the tile they recommend has bullnose pieces and be sure and
order spares so you'll have them on hand for repairs. 

						>>>==>PStJTT

    In the Lowell area there is a place on Chelmsford Street called
    Color Tile.  I am always seeing ads in the paper for them.  I can't
    speak for their prices or whatever, as I have never used them. 
    But they do have one of the ugliest logos I have ever seen.
    
    Ed..
    

    Why not try Coriveau Routhier (SP) in Nashua.
    
    

No constructive suggestions I'm afraid.  I'm in the same position.  The main
steps to the front door of my place are 4.5 feet wide and there are eight of 
them.  I too am wondering how to cover up the "el cheapo" concrete.  Out of
interest can someone tell me what the cost of quarry tiles is in the U.S. ?
(It's an academic question because I'm hardly going to import them !)  

Over here they are _VERY_ expensive.  So much so that I am seriously 
contemplating ripping out the whole lot and putting in a flight of wooden 
steps.  

Henry Gillard - CSC Sydney

    As I said in reply .1, there's a product on the market that is designed
    to cover old, broken, chipped, cracked concrete. I *think* it's
    made by Sakrete. It's mixed with water and applied with a trowel.
    The painters resurfaced our cement steps 6 months ago and then painted
    over it with latex and they now look brand new.
    
    Mike

    
      From experience glazed quarry tile is VERY slippery when wet.
     I have seen some glazed q-tile with a very rough surface that's
     fine to use in wet conditions but the average stuff is like black
     ice when wet.
    
    
     -mike
     

It's true, it can be very slick.  You clearly want to avoid a shiny 
glaze.  The ones my mother used were sort of mat, and they were small 
enough (about 2.5 or 3" on a side) that the grout lines gave a gripping 
surface.  No problems so far.
					>>>==>PStJTT

Hi,

I'm about to begin to put the finishing touches on my basement
project and the last thing I need is to tile over a concrete slab.

Problem is that since I wallboarded and sanded the walls, dust is
all over the place. The tile is the self-adhesive type and unless 
I get that dust off of that slab, nothing will stick to it!

I've tried wet mopping and vacuuming the floor but there is still
enough dust to prevent a good bond.

My question is, should I prepare the floor somehow to correct this
problem or is it a lost cause?


Thanks

Manny

    Unless your concrete slab is PERFECTLY smooth, I suspect that you'll
    have problems attaching self stick tiles. Unsually, if tile is going
    directly onto concrete, mastic would be used. If you want to use
    self-stick tiles, you may have to put down some sort of underlayment.
    
    Eric

    
    Well, more on vinyl floors...
    When my kitchen was redone, about 18 months ago, the kitchen had
    sheet vinyl put on it.  The cabinets were already in, but the
    baseboards were not...so, the vinyl goes under the baseboards. 
    
    Now, the problem is, that later on during all the reconstruction
    "gunk" was spilled on the NEW flooring, and I have been unable
    to remove it lo these many months.  AND nails are beginning to
    be visible thru the flooring....needless to say this contractor
    was not too swift.  Anyway, I will be wanting to lay new
    vinyl next year, or so, and am curious as to my options.
    It would seem the best thing to do is remove the baseboards,
    renail the subflooring--or add more--then lay new vinyl, replace
    baseboards.  Sounds ok, but how in the world do I get the baseboards
    off WITHOUT hurting my still new plaster walls??????  And...I really
    don't want to wallpaper AGAIN, so what do I do?
    I know I could add luan, and floor, but then the baseboards no longer
    sit on top of the floor, and I think that looks funny...
    Comments?  suggestions???
    
    Thanx
    

    When my Brother in-law put down the tile floor in my kitchen
    he used tile adhesive (mastic) even though the tiles were
    the self stick type, this created a much better bond, this might
    work for you also...
    
    Royce

Thanks for the hints ....

I somewhat unfamiliar with "mastic" though.
Is that the generic or brand name?

Is this some type of paste or liquid adhesive?

How expensive is it? I need to tile about 500-600 sq. ft.


Thanks for help

Manny

    
    There is now flooring with a special backing that is designed to go on
    top of rough surfaces - cement, ceramic tile, vinyl flooring, etc.  So,
    it is not necessary to pull up the old vinyl or put down luan if you
    use this.  I know that Armstrong makes this, but there may be other
    brands as well.
    
    -tm 
    

    
    
    Watch out for Calcium (sp?) in the cement.  If the process and product
    for mixing the cement were not exact there will be excessive calcium
    in the cement.  After a period the calcium will dis-place the the
    process for "bonding" the tiles.  I treated my floor before applying
    the in-lay and the carpets.  
    
    There are plenty of commercial products available and it is relatively
    easy to do.
    
    Just a suggestion mind you!
    
    Bob Montville
    

    Just a bit of advice...Even if the floor is perfectly clean, dry,
    etc, make sure you seal the floor even before applying mastic. In
    tiling our cellar floor we missed a spot and the mastic did not
    seem to cure (harden) properly. It is an extra (and smelly) step
    but is well worth the effort to avoid perhaps having to do the job
    twice!!
    
    
    Lynn
    

    
    
    	I am about ready to start laying 400 sq ft of tile in a entrance
    way that leads to the kitchen and dinning area. In planning the
    task I realized that I may not be ready. I am a little fuzzy on
    what comes first. Does all the vertical running to the floor (door
    casements, boxed in beams, etc) have to be installed and stained
    before? Does all the base trim have to be in and stained? What do
    you do with the last step that will be carpeted and ends at the
    entrance way? Any ideas on what to put along the base of the kitchen
    cabinets where the new cabinets will meet the tile floor? I was
    thinking of putting the big scraps of floor tile but then figured
    that there is probably a good reason not to but I can't think of
    it.
    	Any help with these questions will be greatly appreciated.
    
    
    
    Chuck

    Put down the tiles before the wood trim.  

        I used the vinyl cove base around the bottom of the cabinets where
    they meet the tile.  
    

    
    I don't know if this will help, but in all the houses I've ever
    seen, the finish flooring, wether it's wood,rug,tile or whatever
    is always installed LAST. I think it looks better because you can
    trim the tile or rug around the casings real close. Also there is
    no space between the base moulding and floor. Also to replace the
    finish flooring you don't have to rip the finish mouldings off again.
    
    I could be wrong but just my opinion.
    Bob
    

>        I think it looks better because you can
>    trim the tile or rug around the casings real close. 
    
    Don't you think it would be easier to place the casing on top of
    the tile, than to try to cut tile (especially if it's ceramic) to
    the shape of the casing?
    

    WHile I agree with .2 that alot of houses put the baseboards in
    and then carpet (maybe this is an exception?), the rule book says
    that the FLOOR IS FIRST.  Infact, if you ask the tile people
    whether it be ceramic or Wood Parquet, they advise you to leave
    a space up to 1/3-inch between the wall and the material (for expansion
    I think).  The basebaords are then use to cover this space by sitting
    ON TOP of it.
    
    Mark

    I think the reason that in most houses the floor goes in last is
    because that's the way contractor's are scheduled.  
    A carpenter isn't going to come back after the floor is in just
    to add some door casements.  Also you don't have to be as careful
    when there is only a subfloor.
    
    So, I think if you DIY, the floor goes in first, but if you have
    a contractor involved, the floor is last.

    
    Tile first, then trim.  Trying to snip tile to go around casings would
    be frustrating and expensive.  You will break a LOT of tile.  I guess
    a professional would have a saw to do it.
    
    Phil

    I did 1000 sq ft of wall and floor tile when building my house and
    raced the finish carpenter to my foyer, and lost. I had the unique
    experience of doing both before and after trim in the job. Putting the
    tile down first is definitely easier. Depending on the type of mortar
    you set the tile in, if the trim is raised only the height of the tile
    you will find that the mortar will make it a b**ch to get it
    comfortably under the trim. The carpenter took a tile, plopped it
    against the wall, and put in his trim. After that it was "somebody
    else's problem" (mine). There are flat saws that allow you to cut off
    the bottom of door casings to give square edges for the cutouts. I
    found I could do about 100 sq ft of tile in a day. If you want a more
    detailed accounting send me some mail.
    
    Good luck, it's well worth it!

    For such a large area to cover, why did you not look into sheet
    goods instead of tiles. I myself finished off my basment and used
    a 12x13 piece to cover the floor, using a flooring adhesive the
    the job was finished in about 2 hours. Carpeting took care of the
    rest of the new living area.

    Well, here's a 'maintenance' question....
    
    I have a seam in the kitchen floor, and it is peeling back very
    slightly in spots.  _______peel_______peel_____________peel________
    etc...
    
    Is there any EASY way to fix this?  I have read here about
    using heat guns (which I don't own) hair dryers ( which I don't
    own) and old irons (which I don't have..) so, is one of these
    the best?  use heat to peel up all the way on both sides of the
    seam then restick???
    How much weight will I need to get a good adhesion?  How do I roll
    out the air bubbles?  (this is in a section between counters--about
    4 feet wide).  WIll it last???? 
    
    thanx
    deb
    

    Use ammonia mixed with a normal floor detergent (like SpicnSpan) - and
    it's a no-fun job, too, not to mention smelly!  Better yet, wait until
    spring and do it on a breezy day with the windows and doors open!
    Get down on your hands and knees with a scrub brush as well as a big
    sponge.  The stripped wax will max grayish puddles where you have
    already been, so you have to go over the floor with clear water to pick
    up all the glop.  Loads of thankless work!
    
    I use acrylic "wax" myself, but you still have to (eventually) strip
    the stuff, and the procedure is the same.
    
    

    There are also wax strippers available at supermarkets/hardware
    stores (usually with all the other floor care products).  I imagine
    the active ingredient in these is ammonia too.  I don't envy you
    the job - the last time I had to remove many layers of wax over
    dirt left by the previous owner I ended up using the stuff full
    strength and had to also use fine steel wool to get the blasted
    stuff off.  Be sure to also wear rubber gloves and make sure, as
    recommended by .1, the area is very well ventilated.  Follow the
    instructions to the letter - don't add any other cleaners not 
    listed or you could have alot worse problems than waxy yellow
    build-up to deal with (ie: toxic fumes).
    
    It is back-breaking but the end result is usually a vast improvement.
    
    Have Fun!

Goes without saying, but just to be redundant...  When you're working with
ammonia, NEVER EVEN THINK OF ADDING CHLORINE BLEACH!  The resulting fumes
are fatal.

more specifically, make sure what you're adding the ammonia to doesn't have
any chlorine in it - that's what kills you.

-mark

    When using ammonia to remove wax be sure to remove all living things
    from the area; cats,dogs and PLANTS!! When we first removed the
    wax using ammonia we killed all our house hold plants. SO....
    windows open, cats and dogs away for a while, and put the plants
    some where safe from the fumes.
    
    Also, ammonia + bleach = death. 
    
    Enjoy!!
    
    Steve

    
    Use ammonia and water solution. For real heavy was buildup use straight
    ammonia. Also get a industrial buffer/stripper. Apply the ammonia
    solution and a little abbraisive cleanser (the non chlorine kind..NOT 
    COMMET). Then run the buffer over it (several times). Repeat as
    needed.
    
    Mike_who_stripped_many_floors_in_the_Army
    

    I wouldn't worry about your house plants - stripping the kitchen floor
    never bothered mine (of course, none of the plants are actually IN the
    kitchen, but there are several less than ten feet away).  That is, the
    ammonia bothers ME more than the plants, so I always do it with the
    windows and doors open.
    
    You don't need industrial equipment, just lots of elbow grease.  I use
    a scrub-brush, and steel wool (the kind with no soap in it) for any
    really stubborn areas (like the time we stained some pieces of wood in
    the kitchen - the stain went right through the plastic drop cloths, and
    we had to strip the floor to get the brown marks off - sure made a
    small woodworking job into a big one!).  And lots of time and patience.
    
    Ycch.  Not my favorite job!

    I'm finishing my basement (new construction).  I am now in the process
    of considering options for the floor.  At present, there is not
    luan underlayment, just the bare concrete.  What kink of flooring
    can be laid on the bare concrete?  From what I've read, I need a
    perfectly smooth surface for sheet flooring or vinyl tiles, yet
    I get the impression that I could put ceramic tiles right down on
    top of the cement?  Is this true?  It also seems that I might break
    even on the labor...ceramic tiles take longer but no underlayment
    work necessary.  I invite any and all opinions.
    
    Craig

	Re: .44

>  I invite any and all opinions.

	While this doesn't directly answer your question, my opinion would be
to put down some kind of carpet.  My basement is half bare concrete and half
old carpet that I threw down.  All I can say is too bad I don't have carpet
on the "half bare concrete" end!  That concrete can get a tad bit on the
chilly side and I doubt that vinyl would make it much warmer.

	If you've really settled on vinyl, however, please ignore this and do
what you want.

								-c

    My 2 cents....I think vinyl is the only way to go. We LIVE in our
    cellar so obviously with everything else in the room finished off
    we want the floor done too and the tile floor is very easy to take
    care of. We have area rugs that can easily by washed or changed
    (this takes care of the unavoidable chilly floor). We also used
    the cheapest tile we could find that had a reasonably nice(mosaic-type)
    pattern and color. For the looks, cost and ease of care tile is
    the only way to go.
    
    Lynn
    

How are you planning on using your basement?  I assume that you are using it 
as living space, since you are finishing the floor.

A couple of drawbacks to ceramic are that it's cold (especially in a 
basement), and can be hard on feet and, possibly backs.  

I second the suggestion of carpet, which can be cemented directly on 
concrete if you so wish.  It may be the best bet if you're using it as a 
family room.

Clay

    Here are my opinions for what they're worth.
    
    I've seen vinyl tiles layed directly on cement, and they eventually
    curled, due to basement moisture.  If you want to go the vinyl
    route, I would suggest that you go the sheet vinyl route.  It's
    easier to lay down if you have a large area, and there is much less
    to fix, should it eventually come up at the edges.
    
    One option that you might consider as either a "finished" floor,
    or underneath another floor is 2 part epoxy paint.  It permanently
    seals the floor, eliminating moisture and dust.  It lasts forever,
    too.  The disadvantages of this is that you have to prepare the
    floor by "washing" it with muriatic acid.  It's also easier to 
    work with small quantities of paint, as it cures quickly.  I think
    this is the ideal solution for workshops, laundery rooms, storage
    rooms, etc.
    
    There is also some sort of epoxy-latex type paint, but I would stay
    away from that.  Others in this notesfile have had bad luck with it.
    The epoxy bond won't form if you don't use the 2 part system. 
    
    The ceramic tile route is a painstaking job, but it can be layed on the
    floor directly, and will be extremely durable.  In my opinion, this
    would be the classiest route if you intend to use this as a living
    area.  It has the definite advantage of standing up to water, should
    your basement ever develop any leaks.  If you look hard, you can
    probably find a good price on ceramic tile.  Some friends of mine
    tiled their entire first floor with some very nice Italian tile
    that they found a good deal on after doing quite a bit of shopping.
    I would put area rugs on top of it for warmth. 
    
    As for the carpeting route ... I personally don't like most of the
    carpetings that are designed to stand up to water, and I don't know if
    I'd want to put real good indoor carpeting in a basement.  Carpeting is
    also difficult to clean, and if you glue it down, it's a real pain to
    replace it. 
                    
    -tm
        

    Re. -1
    
    I installed vinyl tiles on a slab about 3 years ago.  Nothing curled.
    The thing to do is make sure that no moisture is coming up thru
    the cement.  You can do this (especially good to test in the winter)
    by taking a piece of clear plastic sheet about 1 foot on a side and 
    taping it down well on all 4 sides.  After a couple of days if there's
    no moisture collecting under the plastic, you probably won't have
    a problem.
    
    I used 1 foot square tiles (from Sommerville Lumber) and the glue
    designed for them.  The job is kind of fun, once you've decided
    where the first tile goes - that's the most important one.  Don't
    coat the floor with any kind of sealer or paint.  Paint has to come
    up first or the glue (or mastic) won't cling to the floor.  I found
    it useful to warm the tiles in the oven (very, very low temp) first
    before putting them down.  They are more flexible and easier to
    handle.
    
    

    
    Re: .49
    
    Peter, you may be lucky, but I'm not sure that the test you
    suggested is going to be sufficient for everyone. The problem as I
    see it is that some basements which are normally dry, may take in
    water when the water table is very high in the springtime
    (although if we don't get more snow, this spring certainly won't
    be a good test).  Another problem is that cracks in a foundation
    may develop as the house settles.  It's all a gamble, of course,
    but I prefer to play it the conservative route. 
    
    I understand about the paint and mastic problem, but I doubt this
    would be a problem with two-part epoxy paint as it permanently
    bondes to the cement. 
    
    -tm
    

    Just to re-iterate on our experience....We also have had no problems;
    however the mastic we used had to be applied to a sealed
    floor.Foregoing this step causes the mastic not to adhere( cure)
    properly and will result in curling tiles. Our floot has been in
    place for six years of hard, daily use, with high humidity,
    with no problems.
    
    Lynn
    
                                                        
    

    I have 2 big air bubbles under the vinyl flooring in my bathroom.
    
    The house is a 5-6 year old split level.  There were no problems
    with the floor of this top-level bathroom when we bought it 3 months
    ago.  
    
    Shortly after the heating season started, a small, hard air bubble
    formed between the vanity and the FHA register.  A few days later,
    another bubble started in front of the toilet, about 1 1/2 feet
    away from the first one.  Both bubbles are now over a foot in diameter
    and 2-3 inches high.  
    
    I poked a hole in one of them to make sure that there was no water
    buildup.  It seemed to be filled with air.  But I was unable to
    deflate it.
    
    Before I replace the vinyl, I want to make sure it won't happen
    to the new floor.  I don't want to rip up the old floor until I
    have some idea of what it is and how much time I should plan on
    to fix it.  I don't want to leave the main bathroom "unfloored"
    very long.  I can't see what's under the floor, because there is
    another bathroom (finished) directly below it.
    
    Has anybody had this problem before?  Does the fact that they began
    with the heating season mean anything or is this probably just a
    coincidence?  If there was a leak in the heating duct, and it was
    between a piece of subfloor above it and sheetrock below it, would
    the forced air have enough pressure to seep through the subfloor
    and accumulate under the vinyl?  This seems unlikely to me.
    
    Would an incorrect installation job take this long to show up? 
    
    
    

I have seen  this  problem.   It is the result of having a forced warm air duct
running under that  part  of  the  floor.    You  will  have this problem using
flooring that is not  glued  down with a top quality linoleum cement.  You will
have the same problem with  the  "stickum" squares of tile. 

Two  things  you can do.   Replace  the  floor  with  ceramic  tile  (installed
properly) and the problem will not only  go away, but the floor will be warm in
the am.  Or, you can put styrofoam  between the ducts and the underside of your
floor.  It sounds like option two will be  difficult.    Option one should only
take an afternoon.  Besides, it looks better when you are done.

Luck,

Dave

I'll second the "do it right with the right adhesive" of the previous reply.

The suggestion to use tile, tho, depends on a rigid, unyielding floor; i.e.
tiles crack - they don't flex.  Others can speak better to this, but I think
this means (at least) a second layer of 3/4" underlayment, if not added floor
joists.

>	Option one should only take an afternoon.

    Tiling a bathroom floor only takes an afternoon, huh??  Are you
    a professional installer or are your afternoons longer than here
    in Mass? ;-)  I'd hate to have .0 underestimate the size of this
    task.
    

    
>        Tiling a bathroom floor only takes an afternoon, huh??

    I'll bite, the tiling *will* take an afternoon. Preparation and
    returning the room to normal will take an undeterminable number
    of days ...

    
    RE: .4
    
    Oh, OK.  I knew I missed something... 8-)

Re a few back..

let me clarify,

I was told by a contractor friend it would only take me a day to do the job.  I
figured I'd show him!!!  He was right, it  only took a day.  The key is to plan
ahead and get the family out!


Here is how it went:

Friday evening home with sufficient Mosaic Squares of tile (12" squares of much
smaller mosaic pieces with backing) to do approx 6' by 10' of floor (60 tiles +
a few for error fixing).  Make sure you borrow (rent) a nibbler  and  a  cutter
from the store  where you bought the tiles.  Also, get a new wax ring for under
the toilet as well as plaster of Paris to set the bowl in.

Saturday morning (after  family  is  all bathroomed out):

        * remove toilet - sink and tub stay in place to be tiled around.
        * draw x,y lines in center of floor to start a grid
        * lay tiles on floor without glue beginning from the x,y coordinates.
        * Cut edge tiles to fit
        * mark locations of each square  with  a numbered piece of masking tape
          according to grid locations
        * pick up tiles in some orderly fashion
        * grab the bucket of glue  (waterproof!!!    floor  tile  glue) and the
          notched trowel.
        * spread  glue  over  an area and lay tile  -  starting  from  the  x,y
          coordinates and working out with the already marked tiles.        
        * go out and buy another 6 pick of Sam Adams
        * By  the  time  you get back the tiles should be set enough for you to
          grout the spaces.  This is what you need the beer for.        
        * After  the  grout has set (by now it should be close to supper time),
          put the toilet back on using  the  new  wax  ring  and  setting it in
          plaster.  You find that the plaster  is almost mandatory when setting
          bowls on smooth tile.
        * Wife comes home with kids and pizza.
        * bathroom is useable by early evening at latest

As far as the  time  it  takes  to do the job, I will admit to being relatively
handy around the house.   However,  the  only skill I needed that I already had
was experience with plumbing.  I  read  appropriate  sections from the Readers'
Digest How-To book the night before.   I  will  also  admit  to  liking to work
straight through and admire the effort later.   I  have  given  this  advice to
others and, with few exceptions, they have been done  in  less  than  one  day.


Misc:        

Why tell someone they  need to strengthen the joists to put down tiles?  If the
joists will support a tub  of  water  and  someone in it, they will support the
additional few ounces per square foot  of  tile - you really need to think that
one out before panicing.       

Underlayment:

No need to do anything here unless  the  floor  is  rotted.  If yours squeeks a
lot, you might take the time to re-secure  the  plywood  to  the  joists  using
spiraled floor nails - they will never loosen up.   MY floor squeeks like crazy
and yet the tiles don't have problems.

Value:

I did this job in the fall of 1974 and the tile still  looks  as good now as it
did  then.    My  only regret is that I did not put ceramic tile  down  in  the
kitchen at the same time - we are on our third linoleum floor there.


If  you need more advice than seems appropriate here, drop me a MAIL or give  a
call. This is really an easy job.

Dave

    Dave,
    
    Let me see if I correctly understand the cause and choice of solutions:
    
    CAUSE:  Heat from duct causes the air under the vinyl to expand,
            which causes the bubbles.  
    
    SOLUTION 1: Lay new vinyl with "top quality cement".  I should probably
                completely cover the floor with cement, instead of just
                the outside edges.  This sounds like the easiest and least 
                expensive solution.
    
    SOLUTION 2: Use ceramic tile instead of vinyl flooring.  This sounds
                a bit costly.  How much did your 6' X 10' bathroom cost
                tile?  Is the grout difficult to keep clean?
    
    QUESTION: Does it sound like this problem has appeared for the first
              time, or do the bubbles go away after the heater is no
              longer used -- making me unaware that the problem already
              existed when we bought the house?

    
    Thanks,
            Rex Fisher

>    CAUSE:  Heat from duct causes the air under the vinyl to expand,
>            which causes the bubbles.  

Seems likely  - I have this problem in the kitchen where I (dumb, dumb) did not
use ceramic.   I  also  see  the  problem  in  one  of  the  bedrooms  that has
wall-to-wall carpeting;  the  carpet  (perhaps  foam padding, as well) actually
bubbles up if the furnace has been on a while.
    
>    SOLUTION 1: Lay new vinyl with "top quality cement".  I should probably
>                completely cover the floor with cement, instead of just
>                the outside edges.  This sounds like the easiest and least 
>                expensive solution.
>

Well, the problem with cementing the whole floor  is that you will never get it
up later.  It is the cheapest and easiest  solution,  but not by all that much.
Unless, of course, you have a monstrous sized bathroom.

>    SOLUTION 2: Use ceramic tile instead of vinyl flooring.  This sounds
>                a bit costly.  How much did your 6' X 10' bathroom cost
>                tile?  Is the grout difficult to keep clean?
>    

I just cannot remember back that far to tell you  what  it  cost.    However, I
recall lately seeing mosaics like the ones I used for somewhere  around  a $2 a
12"  square  (but  please  don't  depend on that price, check it out).    I  DO
remember  that  the  total  cost  of the tile, grout, tools and beer (Michelob,
then) was only about half again as much as if I had done the  job with linoleum
tiles.  

Cleaning the grout is not  a  problem.    You  see, the colors in the tiles are
variations of brown and beige;  I used a brown colored grout.  When you mix the
grout you use a latex mixture along  with the water.  This adds some elasticity
to the grout which retards crumbling (so they  say)  as well as keeping it from
absorbing water.

>    QUESTION: Does it sound like this problem has appeared for the first
>              time, or do the bubbles go away after the heater is no
>              longer used -- making me unaware that the problem already
>              existed when we bought the house?

We  first  noticed  the problems AFTER I put up the  hanging  ceilings  in  the
cellar.  I suspect that before then, the air ventillated away.    Next  time, I
will  insulate  the  ductwork.  If you have the "stick-ums" tiles, the  problem
will  really not go away in the spring since the glue re-sets after  it  cools.
When  we  were using room sized linoleum, the problem went away when we stopped
using the furnace.
    
Dave

    Thanks for all of the tips.  It looks like I'll go with the tile.
    
    -- Rex

Just to, uh, cover my tracks in reference to my comment on beefing up the floor.

I think if you went with large 8" or 12" squares of individual tiles, you'd
need something beefier.  I didn't consider the 1" squares.  The bigger tiles
will not flex as a normal floor will.

>I think if you went with large 8" or 12" squares of individual tiles, you'd
>need something beefier.  I didn't consider the 1" squares.  The bigger tiles
>will not flex as a normal floor will.

Beef up the floor for ANY tiles.  The tiles may not crack, but the grout will.  
It is no more flexible than the tiles are.

Paul

    
    	And screw down the current floor and anything you add (luan)
    every 4-6".  Preferably to the joists.  This has been described
    a million times in other notes.

    Re: -1 
    
    The subfloor doesn't seem to have any warping/buckling/bulging
    problems --- just the linoleum on top of it.  Am I missing something
    or did you assume the plywood was popping up?

    The stuff we found is called Bruce 5.  The directions say to put
    it on and wait 4 or 5 minutes and wipe it off.  I'm almost done
    with our floor, it real thick.  Bruce 5 looks and smells the same
    as ammonia, but they also put some other stuff in it.  It does not
    seem any easier than straight ammonia and still requires elbow grease.
    
    scott

    	I'm looking for the BEST price for vinyl tile (the 1ft sq type)
    has anybody out there done my homework for me??  I'll be needing
    about 370 sq ft THATS why I'm lookin for the best price.  Ive been
    to the local franchise houses, and I'm not happy w/ their prices,
    any ideas out there????   BTW, I live in Framingham, but I'd be
    willing to travel aways.
    
    	Thanx, in advance.__________________________Jim
    

    That's like saying that I want the best price for paint, but not
    specifying a particular brand or grade. A little more info is in
    order before a recommendation is possible.
    
    Eric

    What I meant was that I doubt that any one store will carrry EVERY
    brand and grade of tile available. If you supply more info as to
    preference in grade, manufacturer, patterns, etc, then someone may
    be able to direct you to the store with the best price for THAT
    TYPE of tile. If a particular store has generally the best prices
    but not the item YOU are looking for, then it doesn't help.
    
    EWric

    I bought at Sommerville Lumber when it was on sale.  At the time (ca. 3
    years ago), the going price for sq. foot tile was $.73.  The tile
    places wanted typically $1.25 per sq. foot.  The brand I bought was
    Armstrong, if I remember correctly.

    	Thanx, guys I did buy from Color tile, I was able to get 20%
    off the sale price, that was the GOOD news, the BAD news is that
    I still paid $2.09 / sq ft X 375 ft!!!!!!!  YIKES!!!!
    

    
    I am about to do some tiling in my bath.
    
    My question is, how do you completely drain the toilet
    before lifting. Turning off the supply and flushing still
    leaves water in the bowl.
    
    Mark
    

	I just left a little in bowl, had a couple of old towels handy
	and lifted the whole thing, tank and all, from the floor and
	into the tub.  Be careful -- that porcelain(sp?) stuff is heavy !
	
	Didn't lose a drop of the water, or it all ran down the waste
	pipe when I broke the seal (I didn't notice which, but the floor
	and tub were DRY).

	- S -

    I used a wet Vac and some paper towels, no problem...  There's not
    a lot of water left anyway...
    
    
    Peter.

    We recently did a "quick fix" to our kitchen by painting and 
    wallpapering.  We hope to completely remodel and build an
    addition within the next couple of years.  Now that the
    kitchen has new paint and paper, the old yellow linoleum floor
    really stands out.  We are seriously considering painting the floor
    and adding a design.  Has anyone ever heard of painting over old
    linoleum?  It is the ancient rubbery type of linoleum with no wax.
    A hardware store recommended oil based floor and deck paint.
    
    I'm interested to hear if someone has tried this before.  Thanks.
    
    Donna
    

There are no notes specifically on this.  But you might get some similar 
experiences in 393 (painted floors), 525 (paint over vinyl wallpaper), 
1709 (painting formica), and 2181 (painting concrete floors).

Paul

re   < Note 66.24 by EPOCH::JOHNSON "Rule #6: There is no rule #6." >
>                            -< Sponge 'n bucket... >-

    
     Or just a straw.
     
     Saves a trip to the kitchen when I get thirsty.

    You can use a straw if you want, but I figure that's what I pay my dog
    for.  I would just take his water away for a couple of days and show
    him where the john is.  He'll take care of the rest.
    
    Actually,
    
    I replaced one once.  All I did was turn off the supply, then flush it
    one last time to get out as much as possible.  That leaves a little
    water in it, but far enough below the top of the trap so it won't come
    out.
    
    Much more difficult was throwing it away.  The trash folks wouldn't
    take it.  Finally had to break it up into little pieces and put it into
    separate bags.  They took it then.  They just didn't know they took it.
    
    You can't throw trash cans away either.  Try it sometime.

    If you have an "old" linoleum floor, the surface is very possibly
    an enamel.  In the 40's my mother painted one with enamel and then
    took the paint brush with a different colored paint and pushed the
    bristles down end first onto the floor to create a stippled pattern.
    Nothing to write home about but the effect was quite acceptable
    for price.
    

    to re-open this topic-
    
    Just spent the weekend removing the linoleum tile squares that we
    suspected were over hardwood floors in the hallway.  The tiles were
    stuck to a luan underlayment.  When I pulled up the luan, underneath
    were old (50's or 60's) linoleum tiles with either tarpaper or builders
    paper under them, and then the hardwood floors.
    
    The floors seem to be in pretty good shape, except for holes from
    the zillions of staples used for keeping the luan down (which I
    pulled with vice-grips) BUT
    
    	lots of the 'tar paper' is still stuck to the floor
    
    	scraping with a chisel has gotten some of it up, but there
    	is still a lot
    
    Questions:
    
    1.	should we just refinish in the 'normal' way and (hope) the
    	first sanding (coarse) paper will get it off (will plan on
    	changing paper very often) or
    
    2.	does anyone have any hints?
    
    -Barry-
    

    
    The floor sander will remove the remaining tarpaper and tar.  But
    you will have to change the sanding belt VERY often--1-2 minutes
    if there is much tar--it really clogs the paper fast.
    
    
    

    Have not tried this but it sounds like it might work.  They make
    a garden tool which looks like a putty knife attached to a long
    handle.  You can sharpen the edge with a file and and then scrap
    the floor with the knife without having to bend over.  You might
    want to round the corners so that you reduce the amount of gouges
    the sharp corners could make.
    
    P.S.  I got the idea from one of the other notes about removing
    linoleum tiles.

.4's got the idea...

You'll agree when you price out the sanding drums!   8^)

Bob

    
    Use the putty knife idea and a hair dryer/heat gun to warm the stuff
    up first. The heat will make it alot easier to remove the junk but
    don't get carried away and start a fire.
    
    -mike
    

    Thanks for the rapid replies.
    
    Results of tonights experiments:
    
    1.	a 1200 watt hair dryer, left on one spot for a couple of
    	minutes did NOT make a difference
    
    2.	#80 paper in the Makita palm sander clogged pretty fast
    
    The 'glue' seems to be black and hard, kind of like a mastic.  Lighter
    fluid dissolved it enough that the cloth got black, but I'm afraid
    to use it or kerosene as it will soak into the wood floor.
    
    Chisel and rubber mallet seems to be the only consistent thing that
    works so far - now if I could take the rumored early retirement
    paln, by the time I'm 75, the floor would be done!
    
    Any other thoughts on a solvent safe for the wood (and me) or other
    suggestions?  I'll be glad to send a sample of the 'stuff' for analysis
    by anyone.
    
    	-Barry-
    

	A friend of mine once rented something equivelent to a huge belt sander
	to refinish his hardwood floors.  I forget what the term for it was,
	but I think he got it at Taylor rental.....  Took him a weekend to do...

	I don't know if this would remove too much of your floor or not....

	We hired a professional floor refinisher when we encountered
	that problem.  He sanded, stained and used 3 coats of Poly
	and was done in 4 days including drying time and clean-up.
	Best $350 I've ever spend on a service.  But renting a floor
	sander is a good option, wear a QUALITY dust mask.

    
    You could strip the floor using a commercial chemical stripper, then
    sand and finish. Or you can do what I did and hire a pro.
    
    CdH
    

    ree .7
    
    What early retirement plan?

A few years ago I removed asphalt tiles from the hardwood floors in three
rooms!  The tiles had been put down with an asphalt mastic, but they had been
there so long that the mastic was pretty hard/dry/brittle.  So I _scraped_ it
off (as in "paint scaper"!).  It was hard, tedious work, but the best
alternative.  Heat and solvents softened the mastic and made removal
impossible.  The friction of sanding likewise - the paper clogs immediately and
for the drum floor sanders, that paper is _expensive_.

If you do have tarpaper, scaping may not even work.  If you do scape, use
kneeling pads, gloves (for blisters), and a two-handed scaper.  Re-sharpen it
frequently.

Good luck and lots of perseverance,
Bob

    	My father in law incountered a similar problem. He had a carpet
    pad stick to the floor. He said anyway you look at it, it's a tough
    job. He was able to make it a little easier by softening/melting the 
    stuff up with a propane touch and then scraping it. I don't know where 
    as a blow dryer would get hot enough.
    
    	Please note however that he was doing this to get a clean flat
    surface to put floor tile on, not to sand and refinish the floor.
    
    	Ray

    I had fairly good luck using dry ice and a putty knife to get up
    the tiles in my kitchen. Let the block of dry ice sit in one spot
    for a minute or two and the tiles break up with the putty knife.
    Be warned though, make sure you wear gloves when handling the dry
    ice.
    
    FYI--You can get dry ice in Hudson Ma. at: Lake Boone Ice Co. 
                                               710 Main St.
                                               Hudson Ma.
                                               (508)562-2202
                                                         

    I need help removing a yellow stain from my no-wax linoleum. 
    
    It's only about two years old.  It's in the kitchen.  I purchased
    a little oval rug to place at the sink.  This is wear the yellow
    stain appeared.  It is the exact shape of the rug.  The rug has
    a rubber-like backing.  I am assuming that at some time or another
    moisture got under the rug.
    
    Can this yellow spot be removed?  I'm not supposed to use abrasive
    products on this flooring.

    My wife used pure ammonia to remove some stains on the no-wax floor 
    that we moved into (onto?). A couple of years have gone by and there
    has been no deterioration of the floor. 
               

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Paul [Moderator]

     Caught a later note that is referencing yellowing floors. I want
    to put in my two cents here.
     A recent study in our area by a engineering firm showed that the
    stuff people use to seal their driveways is a big culprit in yellowing
    floors. It appears that the chemicals used will get onto your shoes
    and then you track them into the house and onto the linoleum floors.
     The engineering firm reccomended an acryllic driveway sealer and
    not a tar based sealer as most people use.

Re: several of the previous suggestions...

If the goal in removing the tiles and mastic (or tar paper residue) is
to refinish a wood floor below.... then AVOID any methods that would
soften and/or disolve the mastic. The wood will soak up the residue
and you'll have an even bigger problem to solve. 

I would suggest dry scraping and then sanding. I know it will use a
lot of sandpaper, but its the only way that you'll get a clean wood
flooring for refinishing. 

Charly

    
    I have a question about this...  We have a yellow stain on our
    no wax floor from a scatter rug also, but my question is wouldn't
    straight ammonia take the finish off the floor?
    
    Mike
    

    >    straight ammonia take the finish off the floor?

    Yes, it takes everything off, but, there isn't a finish on a no-wax
    floor: the top layer of the floor is the finish. So there is nothing
    there to take off. 
    
    I had my doubts about it also, but ny wife used it with no problem. Try
    it on an out-of-sight test area to be sure.
    

    Here's some info I recently picked-up on yellowing.  I had the problem
    with a new mannington no-wax floor.  When I decided to replace it
    (we never liked the style anyway!), we learned from a very relaible
    flooring contractor:
    
    1- that driveway sealers can cause the yellowing and in most cases
    you can't fully remove the problem.
    
    2- that 'rubber-backed' rugs will react with the flooring and cause
    yellowing.  This is also almost impossible to remove.
    
    3- that improperly sealed plywood before installation (particularly
    in new homes) can result in yellow stains.  These are the result
    of a chemical reaction between the selare/filler and the backing
    on the flooring. There is no removal of this stain.
    
    Good luck!
    

    Does anybody have any comments/opinions/experiences with Armstrong
    Designer Solarian and/or Designer Solarian II?  These are both No-Wax
    Armstrong floors, and the salesman I talked to indicated that it
    is tougher than some of the cheaper grades.  It's also mucho dinero.
    
    I don't have lotsa dinero, but I don't want to skimp on my floor.
    Any comments or suggestions about that product, or any comparable,
    would be appreciated!  The price that was quoted to me was $35/sq.
    ft. installed.

You MUST have meant $35 a sq yd.

Paul

    Geeez! That's a lotta money for a plastic floor. For less than that
    you can use terra cotta or (as I did) parquet flooring.
    
    I did my kitchen floor in teak parquet. Installed it myself in about
    10 hours... it's pre-finished, looks great - even classy. Total cost
    including glue, wax, etc. was $23/sq. yard.

    I don't know one floor from the other but we had an Armstrong
    "Cushion Floor(?)" installed 4 years ago - paid $24/yd and within
    one week noticed the weight of the empty kitchen chairs was perm-
    anently creasing it. It was replaced immediately, no charge, and
    the next copy was not a hell of a lot better; the chairs didn't
    crease it but by simply dropping anything that can puncture, such as
    a butter knife or the edge of a pot/pan can cause irreparable damage.
    These no-wax type of floors are very attractive initially, but are
    not very practical - I wouldn't look at another. They also have
    a history of staining yellow from newer asphalt driveway residuals and
    certain types of black shoe/boot soles.
    
    

    Ditto the comments in .3
    
    Although my flooring is only 3 years old and sees light traffic
    (no kids/pets - only the 2 of us and we're hardly ever home) it
    looks like hell.  Discolored in some area, damaged from the table
    and chairs plus anything heavy or sharp that falls.
    
    I'm planning on having it all torn up and replaced with ceramic
    tile.  Real disappointing since my house is on a slab and the
    floors are hard to stand on after a while.  I had hoped the
    cushioned type flooring would be a more comfortable floor.
    
    ejp

We don't have the 'cushion' type, but we do have an armstrong 'no wax' 
floor.  

It needs wax.  No matter what they say, it just doesn't look the same 
after a cleaning as it does after we wax it.  The shine isn't there. 

I don't think it's any fault of Armstrong, or any defect in the 
product.  Maybe we're just fussy,  but it doesn't look 'clean' until 
after we wax it.

    Yes, I know that some linoleum floors can be very soft.  In the
    apt. we lived in before buying this house, we made a whole in the
    floor moving the fridge.  Ugh.  [Few $$$ off the security deposit]
    
    I have also heard about the problems caused by driveways.  There's
    a disclaimer on the sheet of linoleum sample at the shop I went
    to.  When I asked the salesman about it, he said, "That's an old
    statement, they've overcome that problem now."  Huh... ?
    
    There's a relatively new little floor in my bathroom, put down by
    the previous owner less than a year ago.  It is yellowed in every
    spot EXCEPT for where they kept the bathrug next to the tub.  The
    reason?  The rubber backing.  So, I'm aware of the problems that
    can arise with a $35/sq. YARD floor.  
    
    Now, supposedly, though, this is a good grade... 
    
    To put this floor down, we'd have to have the gawd-awful green
    commercial carpet ripped up [it's glued there, all the way up to
    meet the cabinets, and then the floor would have to be scraped and
    gleaned of the glue.  The hallway has hardwood under it, according
    to the man who came to give us an estimate.  The charge to rip up
    old stuff would be $100.  The total deal, old stuff ripped out,
    new Designer Solarian put down, would be $975.  
    
    There was another type of "commercial floor" that he showed us,
    which was supposedly very tough, but the design and colors?  UGLY!
    
    Pardon my ignorance, but what's a parquet floor?  
    
    I thought I was ready to make a move, but now I'm not so sure. 
    For almost a thousand bucks, I want to get the best floor my money
    will buy.  I also want it to last, because we hope to be in this
    house for many happy years!
    
    Thanx for the help, advice, suggestions, experiences, etc... !
    
    marcia

  The flooring referred to in the base note is an "inlaid" flooring,
  where the pattern is formed of solid vinyl of different colors, as
  opposed to the photographic process used on most standard grades of
  vinyl flooring. The $35/sq yd price is a bit high, but not overly so -
  we've seen this kind of flooring from several manufacturers at several
  different stores, and the prices range from about $28 to $35/sq yard.

  Inlaid flooring is much, much tougher than the less expensive grades,
  and resists wear, creasing, and puncturing just about as well as solid
  vinyl tile, which is quite a bit more expensive and also more
  expensive to install.

  After much looking around, we probably will end up getting an inlaid
  flooring from Tarkett rather than the Armstrong (or others). Tarkett's
  "Lifetime" and "Lifetime Brite" lines are roughly the same price as
  the Armstrong equivalents. One factor was that we found a pattern we
  like, but also, the Armstrong only comes in a 6-foot width, so you're
  guaranteed to get seams. The Tarkett is available in a 12-foot width,
  which, for our kitchen, won't require any seams. We haven't gotten any
  reliable answers yet on why Armstrong doesn't make their inlaid
  flooring in a 12-foot width.

Don't worry too much about seams in the floor.  Done correctly, they are
UNDETECTABLE!   I know... I'm still searching for mine, and I've taken the
tape measure to it.   I know its there, but I can't show it to anyone
who'll believe me!   8^)

As for flooring in the kitchen, we went with oak hardwoods.   They look 
great (!) with the oak cabinets, but we're not moved in yet, so I can't
say how they'll wear.

Bob

    Wow. These comments are really enlightening.  I just assumed that the
    $35/yard Armstrong floors were indestructible.  I'd like to know if
    anybody has anything *positive* to say about these floors -- especially
    regarding usage over long periods. 
    
    My wife and I are trying to decide between (unglazed quarry) ceramic
    tile and a no-wax floor for our kitchen.  Durability is a key factor. 
    If the sheet flooring is not going to hold up well, then we'll go with
    the ceramic and put up with the 'hardness'.   
    
    Joe

    I've done over a fair number of floor ('cause I tend to keep getting
    involved with handyperson houses - 4 so far). The only use I found
    for rolled plastic floors is to cover the floor until I decided what
    else to do with it... If the area is less than 12X12, you can buy a
    remnant pretty cheap. Then you can roll it out, cut it yourself, and
    use 1" half-round or something at the baseboards to keep it in place.
    Without glue, you can take it right up when you decide to upgrade.
    
    My first temporary floor lasted 5 years, but suffered from the same
    ills mentioned in other notes.
    
    I've used terra cotta (or quarry tiles). They're nice, but need
    grouting and sealing. Lotsa installation fussing - hard to cut -
    and they can chip if you drop something like a skil-saw on it.
    
    I prefer using parquet - real wood squares - prefinished - no grout.It
    looks good, isn't as hard on your legs for standing, and can be
    repaired with wood putty and stain if you drop your saw.
    
    There are lots of notes in this file about the relative merits of
    wood vs tile in the kitchen. Installation is pretty well spelled
    out, too.

    Terra Cotta, Quarry, parquet floors... vs linoleum
    
    I've just GOT to ask this question, of the PARENTS out there.  [If
    my husband's reading this note:  DON'T GET NERVOUS!]  But really,
    PARENTS:  if you have little toddlers, in the just-learning to crawl
    and walk stage... do you think these floors are hard on their little
    knees, arms, heads... when they do crash landings?  We don't have
    munchkins yet, but we hope to... someday.  
    
       *  I KNOW:  I worry too much [am I being silly?]
       *  This probably won't be a MAJOR factor in our decision,
          but I just thought:  "It's on my mind; might as well ask!"
    
    Anyway, we DO plan to investigate these other types of floors, after
    reading all the negative about linoleum and the positives about
    the harder floors.
    
    Thank you for the input.
    
    Sign me,
    D.I.N.K. / New-Homeowner 
    [Double_Income_No_Kids]

                     WHOSE / Should Be... WHO IS = WHO'S

    Grammer aside, we recently went from linoleum to quarry tile and we
    have 2 children, a 4 yr. old as well as a 1 yr old. Yes the quarry
    tile is harder, and it may make a slight difference on impact, but
    toddlers tend to fall backward onto their butts, or if forward, on to
    there hands (w/ outstreched arms). 
    Considor this children learn to walk reasonably well in a year or so,
    and tile floors (if installed correctly) last indefinatly.
     One further comment, dropping glassware invariably  results in
    shattered, widley dispersed glass fragments. (buy an electric broom,
    or keep a vacuume handy)
    

    Kids are made of rubber.  It always amazes me the falls they take
    that would probably maim an adult.  I wouldn't make it a consideration.

    You might not want to limit your consideration to unglazed quarry
    tile.  We considered it, but in a kitchen with dark cabinetry it
    threatened to look like a morgue; also, the glazed beige/tan/non-
    descript neutral glazed Italian stuff we wound up with is much
    easier to keep clean.
    
    As the other notes on this subject indicate, the prime consideration
    for a ceramic tile floor is rigidity of the subfloor; don't try to
    skimp here.
    
    pbm
    

  We lived for 5 years in a house with a tiled kitchen, and it was very
  hard on the feet (we both like to cook a lot). As pretty as it was, we
  knew we didn't want it for our new kitchen. I wanted wood. I still
  think that's the perfect flooring for a kitchen. But my wife insisted
  on vinyl flooring because she says the little crumbs which get into
  some of the cracks in wood floors make it harder to keep clean.

  As far as toddlers are concerned, you never really know until you have
  them just how clumsy they're going to be. Our 2-yr-old still isn't too
  good on her feet, and falls on her face quite a bit. She'd probably
  break a tooth on a tile floor, although, as was mentioned, that
  wouldn't be a deciding factor if we really wanted tile.

  The inlaid floorings (the ones around $30/yd) are supposed to be
  very durable, unlike the cushiony ones. We'll let you know.

  NO flooring is "no wax" after a few years of traffic, and that's a
  fact.

  On seams, you have to admit that not all of us are lucky enough to get
  a good installer and have a good floor to work with. Seams do come up
  sometimes. I figured as long as we found a pattern we liked in a 12'
  flooring, we didn't have to find out. I agree, though, it's probably
  not a big risk.

    A neighbor of ours put in the quarry tile. A few months later their
    16 month old tripped and fell forward onto her forehead. Its been a
    couple of years since then and you can still see the scar where her
    skin split open.
    
    The week after that happened they decided the house was too dangerous
    for children (there was a lot of staircases too) and sold it and bought
    another in town.

    > Anything good to say...?
    
    Five years ago I put a Solarian floor in my kitchen. I *still* get
    compliments from friends on how good it looks. Personally, I couldn't
    be happier with it. (Well, yeah, I could. I'd prefer ceramic, but only
    for it's extreme durability.)
    
    I also just put a Solarian floor in the bathroom, based on my
    experience in the kitchen.
    
    Edd

    I had a Solarian floor installed a year or tow ago.  The installer
    did a fine job.  Really, you have to get down on your hands and knees
    to find the seams.  It hasn't shown any yellowing;  on the other
    hand, it's a reddish-brown "tile" color, so perhaps yellowing
    wouldn't show up.  It's  true -- I ripped it when I moved the
    fridge.  Don't move the fridge.  Other than that, it looks really
    good.  I haven't gotten around to having them replace the ripped portion,
    but they said it was no big deal.
    

    When we decided to have a new kitchen floor put in I went with the
    cheaper of the two estimates.  It was move expensive to put down
    the Solarian and I am happy with my choice -- an oak floor.  It is
    not hard to keep up and looks as good as the day it was installed
    back in '86.  I have an 8 year old and a 5 year old -- no problem
    with falls.  The cost was $1100 (245 sq ft).
    
    What's nice about the hardwood is that in a couple of years, it
    will just have to be refinished.
    

    DIY or pay for installation ....Biiiiiig price difference.

    We checked out some ceramic tiles at Tile City this weekend.  Found
    some fairly decent 8" tiles for $.79 ea. and a 10" tile for $1.29
    ea.  It still "ain't" cheap!  My husband will do the work himself
    [god bless his soul].  
    
    I also looked at the parquet floor, but decided that wasn't for
    me.  I'd like it in a family room or den, but not in my kitchen.
    And still, a part of me still prefers linoleum.  But, if tile is
    more durable [ceramic], then that's what we're going for.
    
    QUESTION:  Does ceramic tile become dull and scratched after a few
    years?  The grout in between:  We were told to "seal" it twice a
    year.  Supposedly that keeps it from discoloring.  Is that true?
    Or has anybody had experience to the contrary?
    
    Thanks!

    My wife and I put down Solarian self-stick tiles on our kitchen floor
    last summer.  It looked nice at the beginning, but it's now scratched
    and there are depressions where we rolled the refrigerator.

    I originally wanted to try to fix up the hardwood floor, but it
    was too difficult because parts were missing or perpendicular to
    other parts because walls had been removed.  We didn't want ceramic
    because it's hard on the feet and on dropped dishes.

    A neighbor has solid vinyl tiles, and I think we'll go that route
    next time.  Scratches aren't supposed to show because it's the
    same color through the whole tile (but what about light colors --
    does the dirt build up in the scratches?)

Re: .23

I got some (~1000 sq ft) Italian tile at Torre Tile in Hartford Conn. It 
averaged out to about $1.40 per sq ft (1000 sq ft didn't qualify for a 
quantity discount ;^) Hartford info should list them or send me mail for 
directions. (wonderful assortment for window shopping) All their tile is shipped
over by relatives from the old country...

    re .23
    
    	Be carefull of a ceramic tile that big, 8" or 10" will crack 
    unless you do a very, very, good job on the underlayment. Quarry
    tile, or slate will stand up much better in the bigger sizes.
    
    							Chris

    Still on the subject of new floors... Has anybody had to rip up
    old carpeting off a floor to prepare it for the new one?  We have
    old carpeting on the kitchen, thru the hallway-- where we would
    like to put down new stuff.  We think the carpet is glued down over
    linoleum, and it goes right up to the underportions of the cabinets.
    The hallway carpet, we believe, is glued onto hardwood.
    
    Has anyone done this type of work before?  What kind of machinery/
    equipment/supplies did you use?  Was it back-breaking [e.g., something
    you wish you never started]?

   Re: < Note 3314.27 by CISM::LANDINGHAM >

   > Has anyone done this type of work before?  

   In Media Res.

   > What kind of machinery/equipment/supplies did you use? 

   Ice chopper (you know, sort of like a hoe, but not bent?)/stong back/sweat

   > Was it back-breaking?

   Absolutely.

   > [e.g., something you wish you never started]?

   Don't know of any alternative - the carpet has *got* to go before any 
   replacement can be installed.

   Brian

	re: .27

	 I, too, have carpeting in the hall and kitchen. With two kids
	 dropping bits of food, the thing has become alive. <-0

	 Fortunately, the backing and glue have dried up enough to
	 facilitate pulling the carpet up and a little scraping will do
	 to remove the residual glue/foam backing. Since we're putting
	 down Solarian sheet vinyl, I'm going to rip up the 'second'
	 subfloor and replace that. I intend to do that by setting my
	 circular saw to cut thru both the existing vinyl tiles and 5/8"
	 subfloor and run cuts about 24" apart. That should make the old
	 floor easier to take up, what with the old floor sliced into 2'
	 squares.

	 I've been sizing this job up for a few months now and figure
	 that it'll take me a day to tear out the old stuff and install
         the new subfloor, patch and size it in preparation for the
         Solarian. I am not going to cut/fit around existing cabinetry;
         All the old stuff's coming out and both the kitchen cabinet and
         the flooring dealers suggested laying the new floor down before
         the base cabinets... just being careful when installing the
         bases not to drag them over the vinyl. 


	 We'll see...

	 Chris

    Just a word of caution about stripping floor covers.........make
    sure you know what the substrate surface of the floor covering
    is.
    
    We were planning the ceramic tile our kitchen and front foyer;
    the existing floor coverying was a sheet linoleum, probably
    20 yrs. old.  We used a stripping blade as best we could, then
    I had thew "brilliant idea of having a floor sanding co. remove
    the remaining "backing" material from the underlayment.....to expose
    clean plywood to tile onto.
    
    After we had the floors sanded we found out that the "paper"
    babcking material that we had sanded of the floor was ASBESTOS.
    
    Had I known this, I would have left the linoleum in place and
    put a new underlayment of plywood directly over the linoleum
    thus not disturbing the asbestos backing material.
    
    If in doubt, take a sample of the flooring you plan to remove
    into a testing lab and have it tested for asbestos content.

A couple replies mentioned that the "no-wax" attribute of a floor is a joke.
This is what I heard also when we had a kitchen floor installed 2+ years ago.
The fact that armstrong floors don't require wax is true - however, I believe
armstrong sells a floor 'rejuvenator' that strictly speaking is not a wax.

We went with a Mannington vinyl floor, which is advertised as "never-wax".
Probably another gimic used to fend off armstrong's "no-wax" advertising,
but it's one of those deals where the finish is integrated into the x-mil
surface thickness.

Ammonia is the only cleaning product recommended by Mannington, which 
seems to work fine.  Again, it's only been 2 years, but the finish is
still shiny as new.

Cleaning tip:  we once had black (heel?) marks in the floor that would not
come out.  Then I saw an add on TV for WD-40.  Guess what one of it's uses
is?  Cleaning black marks off vinyl floors.  I ran to the basement - grabbed
the can - squirted a little on a cloth and whammo!  No more black marks!
No scrubbing required - comes right out.

- Chris

In the evenings I have a second job at a local mall (helps pay that mortgage).
About a year ago, our store was gutted and remodeled including what appeared to
be a new concrete floor (in the back room) which was soonafter covered by
standard industrial-type tile. recently we have been getting this wonderful
brown ooze comming up between the tiles in serveal areas. As best guess as to
what is causing this is that some cracks have developed in the floor and 
moisture is comming up and forcing some of the (apparently water based)
adhesive up between the tiles. Unfortunately the company no longer has a
warrantee on the floor. We would like to get rid of the problem, but there
is no way that we can throw hundreds of $$$$ at the problem (Retail businesses
are cheap).

Does my assesment of the situation sound correct?

I only have one idea of what MIGHT fix it affordably: pull up about 75 sq ft
of tile (how, I don't know) wash off the adhesive, paint with some kind of
sealer, and retile.

Any comments or suggestions welcome,

-Steve

A word of caution when selecting your Armstrong "Solarian" flooring.

Armstrong has several very different flooring materials which have 
"Solarian" in there names.  Here is the list of names I remember 
from going through the selection process a few months ago.

    - Sundial Solarian  
    - Sundail Solarian Supreme
    - Designer Solarian
    - Designer Solarian II

I believe that Sundial Solarian and Sundial Solarian Supreme are both
soft vinyl coverings (ie. a thick layer of cushiony vinyl covered by a
pattern layer), the Designer Solarian and Designer Solarian II are both
inlaid vinyl (patterns made of vinyl crystals built on a thin layer of
backing material).  The soft vinyls are much cheaper and also much more
likely to rip, puncture, scratch, etc.  The inlaid vinyls do not rip or 
cut as easily (plus the color goes through so scratches aren't as obvious),
but are more difficult to install.

Prices??
	Soft vinyl coverings can be gotten for as little as $10/yard at
	popular lumber places.  Installation is fairly easy as you can roll
	it in place and cut along the wall.  

	I got Designer Solarian II installed for $34/yard ($28/yard for DIY).
	I watched the installation.  They cut a template from heavy paper then
	used this as a guide for cutting the flooring (cannot roll inlaid vinyl
	up to the wall as it is too rigid).  For me, the $6/yard installation
	cost was well worth it.  Designer Solarian was slightly less expansive
	($3-$4/yard) but is available only in older, boring patterns (other
	than the pattern it is the same as Designer Solarian II).

Also...
	A special note for floors in older houses.  Vinyl flooring will go
	into places where tile or hardwood may require replacement of the
	subflooring.

We have had Designer Solarian II in our kitchen for only two months, but
so far we are happy with the appearance and apparent resilience.

	Bill

    The water remaining in the bowl after the last flush can be pushed
    out of the toilet with a plunger, my favorite tool.
    
    I can't seem to get the old plastic tapered flange out of my soil
    pipe.
    
    I put down quarry tiles and want to raise the metal ring that secures
    the toilet up 1/2" so the new wax ring will seal properly.  I asked
    my father-in-law, a retired plumbing and heating contractor, about
    using two was rings and he said they would leak.  Could this plastic
    flange be glued into the soil pipe?
    
    Mark

when I tiled my floor I went to a plumbing store to get a new wax ring and they
sold me one designed to deal with this problem...  I can't remember the brand
but try asking.

I got my at maynard supply.

-mark

    I tried using one wax ring and it leaked so I tried two for the
    H of it as they only cost $1.19 ea and it doesn't leak.  I've got
    my fingers crossed that it will last.
    
    Mark

    We are now back to looking at vinyl.  Have checked out the parquets
    and ceramics.  I still seem to be leaning towards vinyl.  Will there-
    fore be looking into Tarkett Lifetime & Tarkett Lifetime Bright...
    which was previously recommended to us.
    
    Thanks again for all your input.
    
    Marcia

    Run a quick check on the brown substance with water to see if it
    thins out and runs; if it does then you have some confidence in
    your theory, and perhaps the water you clean the floor with is causing
    the problem rather than water seeping up through crack in the subfloor.
    
    If water is causing it, then change the cleaning compound or check
    for spillage or leakage in the affected areas. If the cause is not
    water, then perhaps some other cleaning agent is dissolving the
    adhesive. I knew a cleaning contractor who used to run into this
    type of problem once in a while, it was always a hassle not knowing
    what adhesive was under the floor covering.
    
    Bernie
    
 

    I just finished installing a 1/2" plywood underlayment in a small
    (5'x5') bathroom.  I plan to install a sheet vinyl floor on top
    of this using a piece left from another bathroom when the house
    was built.  I seem to remember that when the "professionals" laid
    the other vinyl flooring in the house they filled in the cracks
    between the pieces of underlayment.  Can anyone tell me if this
    is really necessary and if so, what is the best filler to use?
    
    

    a.) yeah, it's probably necessary if you want to avoid cracking
    b.) Underlayment Patch. I used the powder stuff and mixed it with
        latex additive as recommended (supposed to help moisture resistance
        among other things..)
    
    ...tom

    What do black ants look like?  I have some bugs about a 1/4
    inch or smaller that have a clawlike attachment at the end of its
    body.  Any ideas?

    RE: .33
    
            That's an earwig.

    Re .33
    
    Earwigs are disgusting critters, but they won't bite you, or eat
    your food, clothing, or house.  They like darkness and dampness.
    Diazinon and malathion will wipe them out, but you have to try to
    eliminate the environment: piles of wood on the ground, for example.
    
    pbm
    

    Thanks for the info.  I was afraid maybe they like eating homes!
    
    Rob.

                          USING Mr. Kip's Account:
    
    Last week we had another estimate done on our floor.  This time the
    estimate was completed to:  Pull up the old carpeting, put down
    subfloor, and then lay Armstrong Designer Solarian... all for the price
    of $1753.  We finally decided that since the expensive stuff can get just
    as "grody" as the less expensive we'd go that route.  We bought
    Armstrong Sundial self-stick tiles... and an extra, supply, just in
    case of "emergencies."
    
    I'm anxiously, and happily, anticipating my new floor... and the new
    countertops that I purchased with some of the extra money leftover!
    
    Once again, thanx to one & all for your input, suggestions, etc.!
    
    Regards,
    Marcia [Mrs. Kip] 

    A word of advice (well, ok, a *few* words) from someone who has
    put down self-stick tiles after ripping up the old floor:
    
    *** make sure the underlayment is perfectly smooth ***
    
    Make sure all the nails are flush or below the surface, add nails
    to any areas that seem loose (or areas that look lonely and could
    use a few nails), use underlayment patch to fill all the seams and
    nail indentations.  The tiles tend to be pretty brittle, and you'll
    have cracks in a few months if you don't deal with it now.. it only
    takes an extra night to do the work, and it's well worth it.
    
    ...tom

    Thanks for the very sound advice.  
    
    We plan to take those precautions.  I have a friend I grew up with
    who is now a private contractor.  He's going to take a day out to
    work with my husband, and has already told us the process.  Luckily,
    we'll have expert advice on putting underlayment, and overall, just
    doing the job right!
    
    B-T-W:  How do your self-stick tiles look now?  How long has the
    floor been down?  I'm kinda resigned to my floor not looking so
    hot after about 2 years or so... It my assumption correct?

    I had a Solarium floor in my previous house for 3 years, and the only
    problem I found was that it would need a real good cleaning periodical-
    ly, otherwise it would look dingy.  And be careful about rolling
    something heavy on it without protection (i.e. a refrigerator being
    pulled foward for a cleaning).
    
    Eric

    We have a four-legged kid, who's in the kitchen all the time.  I
    can guarantee that I'll be washing the floor every weekend [and
    more often if/when we have any two-legged kids].  The floor will
    also be easier to sweep or vacuum in between washings [the old rug
    we have is a bear... the vac doesn't pick up all the dog fur].
    
    marcia

  First, a poll:

  How many of you were aware that roll-stock vinyl flooring contains
  (contained?) asbestos�?  How many of you first found out (or first
  actually *THOUGHT* about it when you opened the Armstrong "Fit-n-Trim"
  kit that promises how incredibly easy it is to install your new floor
  on the outside of the box, and then reveals the both-sides-of-a-page
  in tiny-print sheet of warnings that tells you how deadly the removal
  of your old floor will be...

  Please raise your hands -- Ahh -- I see at least on hand out there
  half-raised...


� Knowing about vinyl-asbestos tiles doesn't count.  After all, the
  name gives that one away! :-)

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

  So we had this kitchen floor that sure looks like it's asbestos-
  reinforced vinyl, an opinion I half-formed a few years back when
  I needed to remove a torn piece behind the range, so we sent a
  sample off to a test lab.  The test apparently involves using a
  polarized-light microscope.  And the report comes back saying 42%
  chrysolite (sp?) asbestos along with the expected organics and other
  junk.

  So now what do we do?

  It's stuck down well enough that merely pulling at the flooring
  merely tears the facing from the backing, freeing the asbestos.
  Will heat from the front help break the glue bond?  Has anyone
  hired an asbestos removal contractor to remove their kitchen
  floor?  Is the plywood decking liable to leave with the flooring?

  (Covering the whole damned mess with laun plywood is probably an
  option, but we'd just as soon be rid of the asbestos forever.)


 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

  By the way, when I took a sample of the old floor and the already-
  purchased new floor, aimed my propane torch at them, and burned out
  all the organics, the inorganic residue that was left behind sure
  looked the same, even under microscopic examination.  I believe I
  later heard a news story suggesting that vinyl-asbestos flooring
  was still being sold, if not manufactured.  So I'm probably going
  to have the new flooring tested before we repeat the whole problem.

                                   Atlant

  By the way, the flooring was apparently original with the house,
  which would make it approximately 13 years old.

                                   Atlant

    Heat should work. 
    
    The cheap paint-stripper heat gun I bought at spag's for $15 is
    worth it's weight in gold for this kind of stuff.
    
    ...tom

    The asbestos in the tile isn't going to kill you, it took a lifetime
    of work in the mines to give the desease (silicosis) to SOME miners
    not ALL of them.  The water you drink and the air you breathe are
    probably more deadly.  If you are realy that concerned, just put
    something on top of it.
    
    Jean
    

Jean:

  Please re-read the note.  This is not the rough-and-tough, well-
  encapsulated asbestos locked into the form of stromg, rigid 
  vinyl-asbestos tiles.  I've worked with them (on the installation
  side, many years ago, as one noter put it "before asbestos was
  hazardous" ;-) ) and they wouldn't concern me at all.  This is
  a weakly bonded roll product.  It readily leaves its back layers
  stuck to the floor as you try to remove it.  It readily sheds fibers.

  Meanwhile, I don't intend to debate the causality of asbestosis
  with you.  Value my opinion that I don't want this stuff latent
  in my house, even if covered up.  and I certainly couldn't, in
  good conscience, sell the house with that hazard lurking under
  some shiny new floor.  And I certaily want to know if this new
  flooring is just another layer of asbestos.  And putting something
  atop the old flooring is no easy trick either:

    o Do nothing and the old pattern shows through.

    o Put on a filler.  Know how a contractor suggested they'd
      do that?  *Sand the old flooring* !?*!&

    o Put on a layer of plywood.  This has the small problem that
      there's not enough clearance between the built-in dishwasher
      and the countertop above it, or the range and the cabinet above
      it as it is, and the extra � to � will make it intolerable.  So
      I'd need to do some additional cabinet-fooling to compensate.


  Further constructive suggestions?

                                   Atlant

    Why can't you put plywood down up to the counters, dishwasher, and range?
    I don't see why you have to deal with what's under them.

    After reading several notes on this particular subject, I decided NOT
    to rip up my kitchen floor. The flooring had been down for some time
    (it looked it), and I read about dangers with ripping up the old floor
    and how the absetos fibers will get into the entire house. (After
    sanding joint compound I understand the statement) 
    So we put floor plywood (1/2 in. thick) - luan plywood except the
    lumber yard didn't call it that.
    
    I feel it is a much safer route to go.
    			Cindy
    

> Why can't you put plywood down up to the counters, dishwasher, and
> range?  I don't see why you have to deal with what's under them.

  Because the current flooring extends under the DW and Range.
  Here's a plan view of that area:


  |//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////|
  |//////////////////+-----------------------------------+------------+//|
  |//////////////////|            |   +--------------+   |+----------+|//|
  |//////////////////| Dishwasher     |   _  ||  _   |   ||  Double- ||//|
  |//////////////////|   below    |   |  |_| || |_|  |   ||   Oven   ||//|
  |//////////////////| Countertop     |      ||      |   ||   Range  ||//|
  |//////////////////|            |   +---- Sink ----+   ||          ||//|
  |//+---------------+------------+----------------------++----------+|//|
  |//|                                                                |//|
  +--+                                                                |//|
  |                                                                   |//|


  The flooring is cut something like:                    +------------+
                                                         |            |
                                                         |            |
                                                         |            |
                                                         |            |
                     +------------+                      |            |
     +---------------+            +----------------------+            |
     |                                                                |
  +--+                                                                |
  |                                                                   |



  The range is free-standing (and slides out for cleaning) so we'd want
  to minimize the "step" up to the floor level.  This is less of an issue
  with the Dishwasher.

                                   Atlant

    I've heard that heat from an iron will work well to soften the glue. 
    Put a cookie sheet between the iron and the flooring, and you should
    get adequate heat transfer without burning or smoking (as is likely
    with a heat gun).  
    
    Perhaps the hot flooring will be less likely to separate and expose
    asbestos fibers.  Use a scraper to lift the floor. 
    
    Good luck,
    Joe

    I had no problem with burning/smoking with the heat gun.. 
    
    ...tom

Re: All the heat suggestions...

  I'll try these out, probably this weekend, and report back.  I also
  thought I would try straight IR (infrared) from a heat lamp.  There's
  still some inconspicuous flooring behind the stove and the refrigerator
  to experiment on :-).

                                   Atlant

      If  you  can't  leave  it in place and cover it you should be very
      careful in how you go about removing it.
      
      First, if you aren't properly licensed for asbestos removal you're
      probably about to violate various state and/or federal laws.   For
      example, what are you going to do with the refuse?  You can't take
      it to your local dump or bury it in you yard.  (Well, not legally.)
      
      Second, you're almost certain to get some asbestos fibers airborne.
      Yes, the small amount and short time of exposure will minimize the
      danger to you, but it is still a very real health hazard.
      
      Of  course  we all accept some risks every day, and I'm not saying
      that you absolutely shouldn't accept this one. However, I do think
      you  should  carefully  consider  the  potential  legal and health
      problems. 

Charlie:

> Of  course  we all accept some risks every day, and I'm not saying
> that you absolutely shouldn't accept this one. However, I do think
> you  should  carefully  consider  the  potential  legal and health
> problems. 

  Thank you for your warnings.

    o I've been told by semi-reliable sources that the Nashua
      Landfill still accepts asbestos waste.  I'll check this
      out further before I produce any large amounts of waste.

    o I value my personal safety quite highly.  If the flooring
      can't be removed relatively intact, I won't do it.  I'll
      either leave it in place, covering it, or engage an ap-
      propriate contractor.

                                   Atlant

    Maybe that's why my neighbor's contractor put ceramic tile over
    the roll flooring. It was the type with one seam down the middle
    of the room. But that's a different note.

  You mean they put the ceramic tile right down over the vinyl???
  Did it stick?  Did the grout crack out?

  Sub-questions, assuming they actually did this:

    - What surface preparation did they do to the old flooring?

    - What adhesive did they use?

    - What grout did they use?

                                   Atlant


P.S.:  Yes -- I know that silly 6-foot wide vinyl very well!!!

  We've now spoken to an asbestos removal contractor and they
  told us quite a bit of interesting information:

    o Firstly, the over-the-phone quote for removing our roughly
      12'x12' floor was $800-$1000 dollars.  This includes every-
      thing including having the room sealed up, the actual removal
      of the floor and the mastic (leaving the plywood decking,
      more or less), the air-quality sampling afterwards by an
      industrial hygenist to assure that no particulates are a-
      drift, and the de-sealing of the room and the disposal of
      all of the waste.

    o Because we live in Nashua, and because the Nashua Landfill
      still accepts properly handled asbestos waste, our cost will
      be approximately $200 less than it would be if the waste had
      to go to a specific asbestos waste dump.

    o If the waste had to go to a specific asbestos waste dump, we
      would not be rid of the waste.  Rather, we'd be handed an in-
      ventory record sort of a card, and forever more, we'd be re-
      sponsible if our particular waste had to be cared for again.
      We would own that waste forever!

    o Because we're proposing to sell our house within six months,
      it is illegal (by state law?) for us to remove the asbestos
      ourselves.  Rather, we must hire a licensed contractor to do
      the job.  The contractor said that a lot of their business
      comes from situations such as ours, where the homeowners are
      hoping to spiff things up before selling.

    o We maintain the option of just "encapsulating" the floor,
      but that obviously just leaves the problem lurking for us
      or another homeowner at a later date.  (And I'd worry that
      the Nashua Landfill may not be taking this stuff by then.)


  The contractor's coming out for a formal quote and we'll probably
  go for it.  Now to find out if our already-purchased new flooring
  is asbestos-reinforced...

                                   Atlant

    I am also right in the middle of deciding on floors (redoing the
    entire kitchen from the floor up)... so this file is great! I have
    a Mannington floor that I put down 6 years ago, and the only thing
    I can say bad about it is that the chairs (brewer's chairs) have
    left scratch marks. The shine was not the high gloss, so it still
    looks good after all this time (two dogs and two people)...
    
    My next choice will be the inlaid, and to put an area rug under
    the chairs to avoid damage. Here's a designer's question for those
    who have a way with colors (I can't decide, and I'm driving myself
    bonkers).....
    
    If the cabinets are to be oak (natural), the counters and back splash
    to be almond, the refrigerator in almond, dishwasher in black glass,
    stove in black glass......... WHAT COLOR SHOULD THE FLOOR BE? 
    Should I keep the floor neutral and work a new color into the
    wallpaper?
    
    Any help on decorating would be appreciated!!!
    
    Shel

    Shel,
    
    Your new kitchen sounds exactly like mine  (oak cabinets, almond
    counter top, etc.)  I'm not sure what to go with either.  I think
    I'm going to stay with a neutral color on the floor and add color
    with the wallpaper.  That way I won't be limiting the colors I
    can use.  It's cheaper to replace the wallpaper than the floor, right? 
    
    Kathy

    Shel and Kathy -
    Geez!  Lots of kitchens alike out there!  Our cabinets are probably
    a tad darker than yours, but not by much.  Almond counter, black
    washer, almond refrig.  The floor goes well, it's an almond with
    a small square design, with flowers about every 4th square.  The
    flowers and squares are in a light tan/slightly orange color.  The
    pattern is simple enough that if you decided that you wanted to
    go with something with a 'real' pattern on the walls, it wouldn't
    look weird.  OR, it's patterned enough to leave the walls plain.
    Our walls are plain beige-ish, a few darker tan throw rugs on the
    floor adds a lot, and saves a lot on dirt.  It's a fairly new floor,
    and it's an armstrong, so they probably still make the pattern.
    There was about 5-6 colors that it came in.
    In the end, I would suggest that you pick some pattern that is
    relatively simple, but definitely a pattern, with a little color,
    but nothing so over-powering that as soon as you walk in the kitchen,
    everyone is staring at the floor, and the glob of spaghetti sauce
    you forgot to wipe up (-: 
    
    	GOOD LUCK!
    
    		Patty 

	Just a word of caution, (not warning).  We just had the Armstrong
	Designer II? installed.  Ours is the middle of the line with the
	perimeter bond/adhesive application.  The floor looks great however,
	as it is bonded only at the perimeters the remainder is free to 
	"move with the house" and any appliance or other heavy object that
	needs to move in or out, refrig, dishwasher, stove/range, washer/dryers.
	As they are moved, even very carefully, they push a buldge of flooring
	ahead of each leg.  If your not very carefull you will tear the floor.
	It's rather like trying to roll something across the surface of a 
	deflated balloon.  Most of the bubbles, for lack of a better term, 
	do eventually go down leaving no clue to having had existed.  Others 
	have left small dimples, (quarter to half dollar size) that have not as 
	yet subsided.  	Hopefully, they will!  We really like the brick patterns 
	appearance and it's quoted durability record, but having had this 
	experience I would not by perimeter bond again.  

	If you decide to buy this type of flooring, I would recommend that you
	have the floor installer put all the appliances back in there respective
	places as part or the contract.  At the least it releaves you of both
	the labor involved and the risk of damaging your new floor.  If you must
	move heavy objects yourself, enlist the help of at least one other 
	person.  Better yet two others, one to observe the floor as you go and
	the other for easing the move.

			good luck
			Frank

    Atlant,
    
    Where do you take you samples to be analyzed? How much?
    
    dave
    

They certainly do sound alike.  My new [lovely] countertops that my husband
just put down are almond / neutral.  The refrigerator is almond.  And the
other two appliances will be painted almond.  The floor we finally dedcided
upon is very neatral... basically beige with a touch of white.

My sentiments were exactly the same:  It's cheaper to replace wallpaper than
an entire floor.  The wallpaper that I would like for the kitchen is going to
have most of the color...  It will have some neutral beige/almond in it, a bit
of white, and perhaps some country blue and peach.  The curtains and chairpads
will all tie in.

Regards,
Marcia

    Boy, I was relieved to see that others had the same questions as
    I, and how all kichens are starting to look the same!
    You are right in regards to neutral color in the flooring, and I
    am glad to hear that for I was thinking that but thought it would
    look to bland. But if your kichens are already done, and it looks
    good, well that says it all. Picking out wallpaper is sooooo long
    a process with all the books, but you're right, it is still cheaper
    than a new floor. 
    Do you prefere the satin finish, or the high gloss? I know that
    the gloss floor will require that vinyl dressing after so period
    of time, right?
    
    Thanks for your advice!
    Shel

    I'm not sure about the finish .... I think it depends on the pattern. 
    Remember one thing that I found out after it was too late -
    A no-wax floor doesn't mean you don't have to wax it!  I don't know
    what they mean by no-wax, except that maybe it gives the appearance of
    being waxed without wax, but it CERTAINLY doesn't give the protection. 
    They SAID that I'd never have to do anything to it, and just wash with
    HOT HOT water, and it should last 'forever'.  Well 2 kids later, the
    most tracked places are starting to show.  The floor has become
    'scuffed' if you will.  The no-wax finish seems to be gone.  I honestly
    believe that if I had waxed at least occasionally, I wouldn't be going
    through this right now.  We're probably just going to ignore it and
    wash more frequently, since that's about all we can do.  The floor has
    a few cuts in it (drop a knife, kid throws a toy, screwdrivers etc.),
    so we'll probably replace it within the next year or so anyway.
    
    	....keep on waxing!

Dave:

  We used:

    Applied Occupational Health Systems  ("A.O.H.S.")

    29 River Road, Suite 18
    P.O.Box 894
    Concord, NH  03301

    Phone: 603 228-3610
    FAX:   603 228-3871


  For vinyl flooring, they require a 2" x 2" sample.  $30 will get
  you 48-hour turn-around (after receipt of the sample, I suppose)
  with shorter turn-arounds available for more money.  They are
  NHLAP accredited and have interim EPA accredition.  The method
  is polarized light microscopy, which is apparently the standard
  method.  The report they produced seems complete and accurate
  to my relatively na�eve eye.

                                   Atlant

Note that in Massachusetts, there must be a 20 day delay between arranging
for asbestos removal and actually doing it, due to a 20 day notice
requirement to the DEQE.  There is also a 10 day notice requirement to
some other Mass. agency.  An approved asbestos remover must be used if
there is more than 3 square feet of asbestos to remove or some length
(I forget how much) of asbestos pipe insulation.  And even if you do
it yourself, there is a $10K penalty for improper disposal.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    >There is also a 10 day notice requirement to some other Mass. agency.

    Department of Labor & Industries

Atlant,

Thanks for the information. Something else to deal with when I rip
up my floor.



dave

    Well, we have our new floor down.  We picked Armstrongs Prevail.
    It's mostly white with brown lines that form large squares (looks
    like tile).  Every other square has little light blue and yellow
    flowers in it.  I wasn't sure if I'd like it, but it looked great
    once it was down.  The only problem is any wallpaper with a white
    background is too much and doesn't quite match the white of the
    floor.  That's ok though.  I think I may have found something I
    like anyway.
    
    Good luck with your kitchen.  I'm sure it'll look great.
    
    Kathy

    And we put our floor in last weekend, and finished up the nitty
    & gritty this weekend.  We put in Armstrong's Solarian tiles.  It
    was alot of work, tearing up the carpet, sanding off the old gradu,
    nailing down the underlayment luan [nails get pounded every 4".].
    And then the level best went down.  And then the Level Best had
    to be sanded smooth.  [You wanna talk about a messy/dusty house?]
    And finally, the floor tiles [self-stick] went down.  I did the
    laying of all the tiles in the open areas.  My husband did all the
    "hard" stuff... the edges, corners, etc., that had to be cut.
    
    The result?  It's absolutely beautiful!  The seams aren't visible
    unless you sit on the floor or bend down.  The pattern is lovely
    [beige/white blocked pattern], but it's obvious now that we will
    need to change the wallpaper soon.
    
    One thing I noticed this weekend, though.  The glue does come up
    from the edges, and if you don't notice it happening, it gets traked
    all over the joint.  I washed my floor with hot water & ammonia.
    Then, still saw the glue on the edges and all over the tiles.  The
    one thing that did work?  Bug & Tar Remover for cars!   A little
    bit on the end of a soft cloth takes the stuff right up!  It didn't
    damage the finish, either.  But to be safe, I then sponged the floor
    down a second time, so as not to leave any of it behind to possibly
    do any damage.

    re:35 Earwigs bite, and it hurts.  My mother and others I know have
    	  been bitten, and it left an uncomfortable bump for several
    	  days.
    
    Chris
    

    For people concerned with Asbestos and testing for it, the EPA puts
    out some booklets on the subject.  I got them a couple of years
    ago by calling the EPA office in Boston.  Ask for the person in
    charge of asbestos issues (I forget his/her title).  Also ask for
    the listing of test results for private laboratories.  Don't be
    put off if you're told that the EPA does not approve private
    laboratories (they seem to be very concerned that you understand
    this).  Simply ask for the report on the voluntary test program.
    The EPA periodically sends out samples of materials that contain
    asbestos in varying amounts, and some which are asbestos free, to
    participating laboratories.  They then evaluate the lab reports
    and publish the results.  It seems that the testing takes skill
    and experience.  Very few labs had perfect records.  This could
    be important if you're going to commit big bucks to remove asbestos
    based on a lab report.
    
    Tony

    My mother had solarian installed a few years ago with a new subfloor.
    The seam ran right down the middle of her kitchen. She never thought 
    that made sense. It now looks awful. The installation in general was
    satisfactory. 
                 I would never have flooring installed with the seam
    like that. I would choose something else. Even the gross 20yr.old
    tiles on my floor look better - they are consistent. 
                 She also dropped a hot fry pan on the floor and in the
    instant it took to pick it up it melted the flooring.
                 I prefer hardwood and someday soon will restore the
    maple floor in my kitchen. I love it( rest of downstairs) looks
    like a bowling alley.
     

When we renovated our kitchen, we specifically avoided the
solarian type floor covering. Two reasons:

	The folks who had the house was smokers. They smoked in
the kitchen so when hot ashes dropped on the floor, there were
little specks where the hot ashes burned in. Then when we moved
the refrigerator and the stove out, the weight of the appliances
left marks where the stands were, making it difficult to move.

Lastly, when it came time to retile, the stuff had to be chipped
off after the top layer was scraped or tore off.

cal hoe

    Someone told me I'd have trouble with lifting when I installed the
    Solarian self-stick tiles in my kitchen... Were they ever right!!!!
    
    Last night I noticed a slight ridge between two tiles. I gently pried
    the tile up and stick a little cyano-stickum under it. Pressed it down
    and 'boing', it came back up. It seems the underlayment was buckled a
    wee bit. No problem, I'll rip up the tile and replace it after beating
    the underlayment into submission. HA! it took me 45 MINUTES to get that
    tile up!
    
    Anyhow, the replacement tile predictably doesn't quite match the 5+
    year old yellowed floor and it's driving me bonkers. The replacement
    is a bit lighter.
    
    Is the Armstrong New Beginnings stuff still the best bet for stripping?
    Straight ammonia? (How do you breath using that stuff?) Any better
    ideas?
    
    Any tips on stripping a floor welcomed!!! The only thing it's ever
    been treated with is "Brite" consumer 'wax'. (No build-up! Self-
    stripping! No yellowing! hahaha....)
    
    Edd

    I'm assuming that "Brite" is a wax like "Future".  We've used "Future"
    on our linoleum that needs waxing.  We've had no trouble stripping it
    using hot water and ammonia mixed in the proportions listed on the
    back of the bottle.  We put the ammonia and water mixture down in
    liberal amounts (puddles) and let it sit for a while.  Then one of us
    goes over the entire floor with a scrub brush, scrubbing in a circular
    motion.  It doesn't take much effort to do this but walking around
    like a duck can be painful.  We then mop the mess up and let the floor
    dry a bit.  Any areas that still have wax on them show up as white
    areas (we have a dark brown floor).  We repeat the process on any white
    spots until all the wax is gone.  Once all the wax is off the floor we
    rinse it with water.  After the floor is dry we rewax.
    
    It takes us 4 to 6 hours to do our kitchen/dining room floor, including
    moving furniture.  Your time will vary depending on the size of your
    floor and how thick the wax is.  The previous owners of our house had
    used Mop 'n' Glow which left a huge build up over time.  It took me
    more than 24 hours to strip and rewax that time.  You can save some
    time by using fans to dry the floor.
    
    Good luck!
    Ruth

    Are there any machines I can rent to make the job easier???
    
    I always wondered what caused the white spots when the floor got wet!
    
    Edd

    So Edd, you want the family secrets for floor cleaning?  %^)
    
    First of all, we switched to paste wax because it is easier to work
    with - strips easier, finish doesn't get ruined if you step on it while
    it's still wet.  Ever put down liquid wax with a toddler around?  On
    the negative side, paste wax has to be buffed and the finish isn't as
    durable as the acrylic wax's.  When the finish gets dull, you can
    restore the shine with a good buffing.
    
    So, how do we do all this buffing?  We bought a small buffer at Sears
    for about $80.  It came with several sets of pads for buffing and some
    brushes for scrubbing.  This is what you need to make your job easier. 
    You can probably rent something similar.  My dad used to do floors
    professionally.  The machine he used to buff the floors looked exactly
    like the rotary floor sanding machines I've seen them use on This Old
    House.  The pads he used for scrubbing were made of a material similar to
    the green scrubby things for cleaning pots and pans.  Perhaps floor
    sanders and buffers are the same machine with different attachments.
    
    If you use a buffer for scrubbing, you will still need to go around the
    edges by hand.  I use a small scrub brush and/or those green scrubby
    things.  What makes our floor(s) tough to do is the deep texture.  The
    kitchen/dining room lino has grooves in it to simulate a tile job. 
    It's a pain to clean them out.  If your floor is relatively untextured
    you'll have very few problems.

    Thanks for all the tips folks, stripping floors wasn't one of the
    skills I ever thought to pick up...
    
    I purchased a bottle of "New Beginning" stripper/cleaner at Color Tile
    in Auburn ($5.49 a quart). WOW!!! The tile I had replaced used to stick
    out like the proverbial sore thumb, now it is impossible to find!
    
    I poured the stuff on the floor straight from the bottle, mopped it
    around to cover 8 or 10 tiles, waited a bit, and then just mopped it
    up! Some high traffic areas required some minimal scrubbing with a
    bristled brush, but much of the floor came clean without bending over.
    A couple areas will require a second treatment, but the difference is
    already startling.
    
    One quart cleaned about 100 square feet, so I'll have to get a second
    tonight. No problem. For less than $12 I'll have a practically new
    floor.
    
    Edd

    Geeeeee .... and I thought it was too late for my floor - now I think I
    might have a chance!!  We have a 5-year-old Armstrong floor (sheet, not
    tile).  In my naiivity, I took them literally for the 'no-wax' and the
    floor has only been washed - never waxed - over the years.  Well (as
    you can imagine) the 'wax' has worn off in the heavy traffic areas, and
    around the kitchen table.  It looks TERRIBLE and the first sign of dirt
    seems to be attracted to (and STICKS) to that part of the floor.  We've
    always had throw rugs right in front of the door, the dishwasher and
    the sink, so those places aren't too bad, but basically the middle of
    the floor is shot.  
    
    So .... should I strip the whole floor and get into waxing it
    regularly?  Should I just try waxing it and assume it doesn't need to
    be 'stripped'?  Should we rip up the whole thing and start over from
    scratch?  If you have a wax floor, how often should it be waxed (my
    husband, myself, a 2 and 5 year old, a cat, and the kitchen door is the
    door we ALWAYS use)  There is some 'ground in' dirt on the floor where
    the wax is gone - will the stripping help lift this?  It really looks
    lousy, and we'd like to do SOMEthing about it!  
    
    Thanks!
    Patty-who-hates-waxing (-;

    My take on this whole process is that constant waxing causes a buildup,
    which yellows and needs to be periodically removed, as normal washing
    just doesn't do it. ("self-stripping" floor wax? ha!)
    
    If you've never waxed your floor I can't see what you'd be stripping 
    off. A good cleaning (and maybe a commercial stripping solution might
    be a good cleaner!) followed by a good "polish for no-wax floors" would
    probably restore a lot of lustre to your floor. But, I can't imagine
    that going through the stripping process would be harmfull...
    
    The thing that nailed me on my floor was that it *was* nice and shiney!
    It was just uniformly yellowed. Only when I replaced the tile did I
    realize just HOW yellowed.
    
    Edd

    What I assumed that I would be stripping would be the wax-coat that is
    applied when the floor is manufactured (no-wax floor), from the area
    where it IS still shiny/protected.
    
    Is a 'polish for no-wax floors' a wax or anything that will actually
    protect the floor?  Aside from looks, we are living ON the floor now,
    and any type of finish appears to be gone on the heavy-traffic area.
    I'm trying to prevent damage to the linoleum itself so we can squeeze
    another year or two out of it.  I believe it's Sundial Solarian if that
    matters at all (and I THINK it's guaranteed for 7 years .... hmmm....)
    

    A 'polish for no wax-floors' is, for all intents and purposes, wax.
    Maybe it's acrylic or something else, but the intent is the same.
    It brings back the shine...
    
    I've always used a product called "Brite" available at supermarkets.
    Any one of a number of similar products would probably work just
    as well.
    
    Edd

    Patty,
    
    I've never stripped or waxed a no-wax floor.  I'd recommend looking
    into your guarantee first.  If it's no longer guaranteed then I'd
    try using a stripper on it but test it in an out of the way spot first
    to make sure it doesn't damage the floor.
    
    I've used Bruce stripper with pretty good results.  The directions say
    to put it on a 3x3 area, let it sit for a while then mop it up.  At that
    rate it would have taken me a week to do the floor.  Instead I dumped
    the whole bottle on the floor and spread it around.  The problem with
    this method is the stuff starts to dry.  When spots started to dry out,
    I added a little water to it.
    
    I'd ask a floor dealer what type of finish to put down on the floor
    afterward.  You can probably use either acrylic or paste wax.  The
    acrylic will last longer but is a little harder to apply (we always got
    small bubbles and splashes on the wood work), is extremely fumey and takes
    a long time to dry.  This can be tough work with children around.  When
    the wax wears off in the high traffic areas you should strip the entire
    floor again and rewax.  Paste wax is different.  It's still pretty
    fumey and has to be put down with a rag, but it is much more forgiving if
    you walk on it before it's dry.  If you vent the room well, your older
    child may be able to help you with the waxing and buffing.  When the high
    traffic areas start to look worn, you can buff it again.  If that doesn't
    work you can just rewax that area with little trouble.
    
    As for how often we need to rewax, I hate to admit this but we seem to
    do it about once a year with acrylic and twice a year with paste wax.
    Other people would probably do it more often than that.  The only spot
    that gets really wrecked up is under the table due to the chair legs
    scraping the wax.
    
    Ruth
    
    PS - If there's a polish available for no-wax floors, you probably will
         get the best results with that.

If you're putting in new flooring and want to get out of this "wax the no-wax
floor" rut, buy Mannington "Neverwax" flooring.  You just mop it, no wax
or polish.  Maybe in 15-20 years, the pattern will show some wear but the
floor will still be shiny.

It costs no more than Armstrong.

				Steve

    re .17
    Once or twice a YEAR???  GEE, I thought I was looking at once a week,
    once every other week.  No problem!!
    
    re .18 "Neverwax"???  Is that REALLY true??  We will have to replace
    the floor, even if the wax looks 'beautiful'.  Ya see .... 5 years ago
    when we had the house built they laid the kitchen floor.  Then some
    dope came along (before the house was done) and dropped (and left) a
    cigarette on the floor.  Then someone else left a 5 gallon paint bucket
    on it and the linoleum was so soft that we ended up with a burn and a
    5-gallon bucket ring.  In the middle of the floor.  Before we had even
    passed papers.  SOOOOOO....they replaced the floor.  Ripped up the
    color-sheet, but the foam backing was left behind.  So now we have I'd
    guess about 1/4 inch of foam backing and then the 'new' floor which
    ALSO has about 1/4 inch foam backing, so the floor's REALLY soft.  I
    mean if you wear high heels and walk across it, you leave dents.  Use
    your imagination for what happens when a couple kids drop/throw a fork or 
    a knife (or any one of 4,000 little metal cars and trucks) - lots of 
    little cuts in the floor.
    
    So the question is .... when we replace the floor, does anyone know if
    they'll be able to rip up everything and get back to the subfloor, or
    will we just be adding another layer of foam backing?  Their original
    reason for not doing so was because they'd never be able to get all the
    glue off to make the subfloor smooth again, so they'd never be able to
    lay the floor smooth.  Comments?
    
    Thanks for the waxing suggestions .... I guess my first step will be to
    check on that guarantee!!
    
    thanks,
    
    Patty

    re: .19 Once or twice a year...
    
    Remember, our floor is dark brown.  Second, we're not too fussy
    about cleaning it.  It gets swept about once per week and damp mopped
    when we get around to it, every three months or so.  No, we're not
    pigs, we just don't get too many muddy footprints, etc. (at least
    that can be seen).  We wipe up any spills, etc. with a damp cloth so
    we don't have to wash it very often.  If you have a light colored
    floor and/or your floor gets dirty quickly, you will have to wash
    and probably wax the floor more often.
    
    To help keep the floors and carpets clean we don't wear our shoes
    in the house and our 2 1/2 year old gets almost all of her liquids
    in a sippy cup.  Wet shoes/boots are removed at the front (kitchen)
    door and are left on a scatter rug to dry.  This really does help
    preserve the finish.  My neighbor came over with wet shoes and was
    concerned about messing up our "fresh" wax job - it had been done
    at least 6 months earlier.

We have Armstrong Solarian tiles, and we regret it.  Because they have a
finish layer on top of a dark core, scratches stand out.  Next time,
we'll get solid vinyl, the kind that's the same color throughout.  We'll
also get a darker color that won't show the dirt.

Re: .19

Yes, really.  Neverwax.  It's made in a very different way from most
vinyl flooring.

What is usually recommended for installing replacement flooring is a new
underlayment (Masonite or 1/4 inch plywood) on top of the old flooring.
You don't want foam underneath - this will just make it wear faster.

				Steve

    re .22
    
    When adding the masonite or 1/4 ply., would you try to rip up the old
    floor/foam first, or just go right over it??  Wouldn't want to go right
    over it very often (-:
    
    re .20
    
    Well .... we do the 'take your shoes off at the door' routine and have
    the scatter rugs at the doors and keep dirt/food off the floor as much
    (quick) as possible.  just plain ole moving chairs around and running
    in for the phone type of wear and tear seems to have done her in.
    
    As for cleaning it - if we only swept the floor once a week or mopped
    every few weeks, you sure wouldn't want to come visit!!  We sweep every
    2-3 days MAX, and mop at least once a week.  Once a month or so it's
    time for housemaid's knees and wash it by hand (now you know why the
    thought of having to wax it TOO is getting to me (-; )  We have a
    slightly off-white floor with light tan flower design.  ALL the traffic
    for the house comes over this floor (including an escaped Big Wheel now
    and then!), so it only takes a couple days before it could use to be
    mopped again.  I am *NOT* one of these people who are fanatics about
    things being clean - most of the time it looks dirty - it's just that
    that's the rate of cleaning that we need to maintain so you don't get
    ill when you look at it. (maybe my kids are slobs and I just never
    noticed!)   Soooooooo  hopefully the wax or SOME kind of finish will
    help keep things from sticking and help them come up faster.  Now to
    call Dean's and find out about the guarantee ....
    
    Thanks!!
    

It is generally recommended that you NOT remove old resilient flooring if
you can possibly avoid it.  Part of this is due to the asbestos particles 
which will be released (many vinyl flooring products have absestos in the
backing material.)  Also, it's often a difficult task with no real benefits.
Of course, if you can't cope with the added thickness, then you may
have no choice.

You do need a flat, solid surface to apply the flooring to.  It should have
no "give" to it.

				Steve

    Well, to add some more here .... I called Dean's (the installer of the
    floor), and they would NOT give me an answer as to how long the
    guarantee on my floor was.  Told me lots of other stuff, but wouldn't
    answer the question except to say "I don't think it would be guaranteed
    for that long".  In the end they gave me the 800 number for Armstrong. 
    I called there (800-233-3823), had to wait about 1/2 hour to talk to
    someone (but heck, it's their dime!), and finally got this lady who was
    VERY nice.  She said that there was a 5-year guarantee on the floor,
    but since the floor was 5 1/2 years old, I was basically sool (they
    sure didn't seem real anxious to honor any part of the guarantee).  I
    bugged her and complained for a while, and told her 'if you look at the
    floor, it's OBVIOUS that it's been worn out for more than a year'  "I'm
    sorry, the guarantee is not in effect anymore" (That'll teach me!)
    
    	*BUT*
    
    They DID send me a bottle of New Beginnings and said that they
    suspected the REAL problem was that the floor was just really dirty,
    and ground-in dirt and that the New Beginnings should take care of
    that.  If that didn't restore the shine, then she said to use some
    ShineKeeper after (didn't send that - aw SHUCKS!).  I'll be using the
    New Beginnings tonight, so we'll see how well it works!!  It was a
    regular size bottle, so it must've cost them some bucks to send that
    out, so I felt good that at least they didn't just hang up, and they
    also sent a VERY informative booklet about their different types of
    floors, and how to remove every possible stain from each different type
    of floor.  REALLY INTERESTING!!  Do YOU know how to get Indelible
    marker off of a no-wax floor without ruining the No-Wax??  How about
    getting rid of the driveway sealer build up??  
    
    Depends on your type of floor, but there was an answer for everything!
    

    Maybe you would like to enter a few of these helpful cleaning hints as
    a new note?  Maybe someone would be willing to type them in for you if
    you sent them a copy of the phamlet if you don't feel up to it?
    
    

We're just starting to look at some new flooring for the kitchen.  One salesmen
mentioned about the best quality Armstrongs having a urethane finish as oppoed
to vinyl, which they claim is much stronger.  Anyone have any comments or
experiences with urethane finishes vs vinyl?

Also are those "guaranteed kits" worth while?  Seems like they are just an
insurance policy?  Are the large paper sheets really helpful for tracing the
floor pattern onto the linoleum?  Seems like a tape measure would do fine if
you didn't have anything too complicated to cut.

                                                   _M

Many people suggested Luan as a new subflooring when putting new linoleum over
the old.  Is hardboard just as good?  (It is a little cheaper.)  My R.D.
"Complete D.I.Y." book mentioned hardboard.  The handymans tips flier from
Sommerville Lumber also mentioned hardboard, but the salesman in the store said
to use Luan (even after I asked about hardboard).  

Luan or Hardboard?
                                                           _M

    I used the "guarantee kit" when I did my bathroom. If I remember
    correctly, it cost me <$10 and was worth every penny. I'd probably
    not buy another after seeing how to do it. I'd simply use newspaper
    or something similar.
    
    What I *wouldn't* do is just use a tape measure. My house has a
    tendency to interpret such terms as perpendicular, parallel, and square
    *very* loosely and a tape measure would lead to disaster.
    
    Edd

    If {when} I remember to bring in the pamphlet, I'll put that in here.
    The cleaning tips were VERY specific to the type of Armstrong floor
    that you have, but some of the cleaning methods were the same for all
    of them.
    
    ..... who knew you could dump lighter fluid on the floor and have it be
    OKAY??? {No smoking please _kaboom_!} (-:
    
    Patty

    I used the New Beginnings, and it was AMAZING!!!  They said that I only
    had to use it on the part that seemed scuffed up, but of course once I
    did that, the rest of the floor looked like S--T, so I did the whole
    floor.  One thing's for sure ... they are NOT joking when they warn
    about skin contact, and in particular PROLONGED skin contact.  Rinse
    that stuff off, lest ye be the proud displayer of a nice chemical burn. 
    Ouch.
    
    Here's some of those Tips - the treatment's different for different
    types of floors, so make sure you identify YOUR floor type before
    trying them;
    
    For stains or Floors not listed, call the Armstrong Consumer Line at
    800-233-3823 (and prepare to wait a good 1/2 hour!)
    
    **************
    Solarian with Cleansweep Urethane No-wax Vinyl Floors, which are;
    
    Solarian Supreme Pearl Glaze Collection
    Regal Solarian
    Designer Solarian II
    Designer Solarian 
    
    Stain Treatment;
    Common household stains, including hair dye, shoe polish, mustard,
    ketchup, mustard and permanent marker will not stain Solarian w/
    Cleansweep floors when removed within 72 hours.  
    
    Traffic Stains:
    Use Rubbing alcohol and a clean white cloth on the area.
    **************
    
    **************
    Solarian Urethane No-Wax, which is;
    
    Starstep Solarian
    Solarian Select
    Sundial Solarian
    Glazecraft Solarian Tile
    Century Solarian Tile
    Citation Solarian Tile
    Premier Solarian Tile
    Classic Solarian Tile
    
    Stain Treatment for:
    1)Crayons, Grape Juice, Lipstick, Mercurochrome, Merthiolate, Mustard,
    Pen Ink, Permanent Marker, Wine
    
    Wet a clean white cloth w/ charcoal lighter fluid or turpentine (don't blow
    yourself up).  Wipe over stain, turning cloth frequently.  Don't walk
    on area for at least 30 mins.
    	Wet a clean white cloth w/ rubbing alcohol.  Wipe over stain
    turning cloth frequently.  Don't walk on area for at least 30 mins.
    	If a stain still shows, use liquid chlorine bleach (on a clean
    cloth) and repeat the above procedure.
    	Rinse w/ water and let dry.  Reapply floor polish if you normally
    use it.
    
    
    Stain Treatment for;
    2)Paint and Varnish
    
    Wet a clean white cloth w/ charcoal lighter fluid or turpentine (don't blow
    yourself up).  Wipe over stain, turning cloth frequently.  Don't walk
    on area for at least 30 mins.
    
    	Rinse w/ water and let dry.  Reapply floor polish if you normally
    use it.
    
    
    Stain Treatment for:
    3)Nail Polish
    
    Wet a clean white cloth with nail polish remover.  Quickly wipe over
    stain while turning the cloth frequently.  Don't walk on the area for
    at least 30 mins.
    
    Stain Treatment for:
    4)Rust
    
    Apply New Beginning to the stain.  Let it stand for 5-10 mins, then
    scrup vigorously w/ a stiff-bristle brush.  Wipe up, rinse, dry.
    	If traces of the stain still remain, rub with a nylon pad dipped on
    a solution of oxalic acid and water.  Mix 1 part acid to 10 parts water
    (Oxalic acid can be found at drugstores and hardware stores AND IS
    POISONOUS, so be CAREFUL!)
    
    Traffic Stain Removal
    5) Tar/Asphalt
    
    Wet a clean white cloth w/ charcoal lighter fluid or turpentine (don't
    blow yourself up).  Wipe over the stain, turning the cloth frequently.
    Don't walk on the area for at least 30 mins.
    Rinse w/ water and let dry.  Reapply floor polish if you normally use
    it.
    *****************
    ******************
    Vinyl No-Wax Floors, which are;
    
    Crowne Corlon
    Prevail
    Timespan
    Cambray
    Imperial Accotone
    Royelle
    Stylistik Tile
    Vernay Tile
    
    
    Stain Removal:
    
    o First try to wipe up spills w/ a clean cloth and Armstrong New
    Beginning Extra Strength Cleaner and Wax Remover.
    
    o If the spill has dried, remove as much of is as possible with a tool
    that won't scratch the floor, like a plastic spatula.
    Use a nylon pad  (recommended for non-stick pans_ to scrub sticky or
    dried-on spills.
    
    o Tough stains can be removed using a clean cloth and New Beginning
    full strength.
    Apply to the area, and let soak for 2-3 minutes.  Then, gently scrub
    the area with a nylon mesh pad and rinse the area thoroughly with clean
    water.
    
    Traffic Stains:
    
    Use a clean cloth and New Beginning, full strength.
    Apply to the area, and let soak for 2-3 minutes.  Then, gently scrub
    the area with a nylon mesh pad and rinse the area thoroughly with clean
    water.
    ***************
    
    ***************
    Standard Vinyl Floors, which are;
    
    Classic Corlon
    Medintech
    Custom Corlon
    Commercial Excelon Tile
    Santa Cruz
    
    Stain/Traffic Stain Removal:
    
    Use New Beginning and a plastic scrub pad to remove all wax.  Rinse
    completely.  Allow to dry, and reapply Armstrong Shinekeeper to the
    area to rebuild the wax (wear) layer. 
    
    ********
    
    Reprinted without Permission from Armstrong's Residential Floor Care Guide 
    and Warranty.

    This looks like the right note for this question...
    
    I'm going to install a sheet vinyl floor in a bathroom.  It's going to
    go over an area that is partially covered by ceramic tiles. partially
    plywood, and even a little area covered by particleboard subfloor.
    (This was a former closet that is now becoming part of a new bathroom.)
    
    Also, there are some differences in the level of the subfloors.  I plan
    to make up the difference with plywood, and then use a floor levelling
    compound to make everything smooth.
    
    Questions:
    
    Should I try to cover the tile with levelling compound, or just remove
    the tile?  
    
    If I remove the tile, what are my chances of being able to
    scrape/sand the old adhesive off enough to leave a smooth surface?
    
    If I leave the tile, should I try to roughen the surface of it?  How?
    
    What type of floor levelling material should I use?  The place where
    I'm buying the flooring said there are two types - one for wood
    subfloors, one for masonry.  The guy wasn't sure which one should be
    used over tile.
    
    All advice appreciated.  I plan to attack it this coming weekend, so if
    you have any thoughts, please respond!
    
    /Don
    

    
    I'd remove the tiles and replace it with 1/4" luan plywood (since the
    tiles are probably 1/4" thick), then use the minimal amount of leveling
    compound. A wonder bar should do a good job removing the tiles.
    
    CdH
    

    Vinyl flooring is not very forgiving of uneven surfaces.  Whatever the
    terrain looks like under the vinyl, is mirrored above in bumps and
    dips.  Most tile floors are levle as a whole but have all the grout
    lines which act as valleys from a vinyl viewpoint.  I would recommend
    removing the tile, putting down a subfloor, and then apply your vinyl.
    

    Is luan plywood OK for a subfloor?  It seems to have a tendency to
    flake (or am I imagining things?)
    
    /Don

    Luan is quite commonly used as the material between the subfloor/floor
    covering and the new floor covering. My idea of the 'sub-floor' would
    be the material nailed directly to the floor joists. (Hope that doesn't
    come across as nit-picking.) Not sure whether -say- 3/4 inch luan would
    be appropriate or inappropriate as the 'real' sub-floor. I THINK one of
    the 'advantages' of Luan may be that it is 'gap' free
    
    				herb

            <<< LYCEUM::DISK$NOTES:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CONSUMER.NOTE;1 >>>
              -< Consumer info exchange -- for Digital employees >-
================================================================================
Note 1918.0           Any way to get rid of dents in lino??              1 reply
CUPMK::VARDARO "Nancy"                               19 lines  10-FEB-1991 18:25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I am hoping someone can give me advice although I am almost
    sure there is no solution to my problem ..
    
    My kitchen floor (Tarkett lino) has several high heel
    dents in it.  It also had dents where the table sits, but 
    they are never seen.  The marks from the shoes are 
    definitely more noticeable ..
    
    Is there any chance that they might 'pop' out after a 
    while or is that just wishful thinking??  Is there 
    anything I can do to get rid of the dents or even lessen
    them?
    
    This just happened this weekend and to make matters worse,
    it's in my brand new house!!!
    
    Thanks for any help you can give ..
    
    Nancy

Gee, spiked high heels? 8*)

Try using a hair dryer on it. We moved our refrigerator out and
the floor was dented with a track where the rollers were. Using
the hair dryer on medium helped remove the tracks.

cal hoe

    I am trying to find a solution to a problem that has come up.
    
    While stipping the walls of old wallpaper, we had placed the steamer on
    the floor.  Now where we place the machine, there is dull white spots. 
    Is there a way to remove these spots.
    
    Terri

    It is linolium (sp?)

    Is the floor waxed?  The steam may have caused the wax to turn white. 
    Strip the old wax off the flooring and put on a new coat. 
    
    Steam should not effect the color of linoleum.

    From what I have read so far, I agree with .3, and have had the same
    thing happen to me.  Standing water on a wood floor or on linoleum
    will cause a milky looking stain.  This is the wax turning color,
    and not the flooring itself.  Stripping off the wax will remove the
    stain.
    
    Frank

    It has been some time since this note has been written, but I need to
    install a limoleum floor-covering  over a concrete floor.
    
    re: .5
    
    >>	    etc, make sure you seal the floor even before applying mastic. In
    
    What do you use to seal the concrete floor?  Brand Names?
    
    How long to apply (I have a 12x9 Kitchen floor)?  How long to dry?
    
    Thanks

    re:  -.1
    
    >>     What do you use to seal the concrete floor?  Brand Names?
    
 
    I'll answer my own first question.  I saw advertised in the Sunday
    paper an advertisement for Cuprinol concrete sealer.  I presume this is
    the stuff.
    
    Thanks

    I've never tried to apply anything to a concrete floor, but I have
    solved concrete "dust" problems with Thompson's Water Seal.
    
    Word of caution: When they say "ventalate" they aren't kidding.  The
    fumes can ignite (like by a furnace pilot) and you will get high as
    a kite by breathing in the fumes.
    
    Frank

    I will be having a new kitchen floor installed in a couple of weeks. 
    After looking at a number of notes in this file, I still have a few 
    questions:
    
    (1)  The existing linoleum is installed over the concrete slab.  What
         is the best way to remove it?  Heat Gun?   Chisel?   other?
    
    (2)	 How should I remove the existing adhesive?  The floor need to be
    	 smooth (of course), and getting the adhesive up seems like the biggest
     	 challenge!
    
    (3)  A part of the floor will be new concrete.  If this or any other
    	 part of the concrete floor needs to be smoothed out, how would
    	 I get it smooth?
    
    (4)	 Any recommendations for sealing the floor after the concrete is
    	 smooth?  Will Cuprinol concrete sealer do the tricK?
    
    (5)	 I prefer not to install a subfloor for various reasons.  What more
    	 (besides smoothing and sealing the floor) must I do to prep the
    	 floor?
    
    
    Thanks
    
    David
    

    
     If the old floor is vinyl flooring-a shovel can be used and then it's
    get down on your hands and knees with a heat gun and a broad chisel and
    get up the old glue- you will not get it all up. Some of the adhesives
    are water based and some are solvent based- in either case, it's a
    bear.
    
     I would be careful about the cuprinol or Thompson's type of conrete
    sealers- many of these have some waxy compunds that are guaranteed to
    cause yoyur adhesive not to stick.
    
     What about muriatic acid? the problem is it is in a house and I am not
    sure how you would "hose it down" after tha acid was applied.
    
     I would be tempted to get up as much of the adhesive as I could with a
    heat gun, ecth the floor, fill in the gaps, etc with an epoxy/filler
    and then put a coat of epoxy based floor and deck enamel. That will
    seal the floor,albeit not cheaply.
    
    
     Have you checked with a floor tile place? I am sure they have some
    tehniques. I know that over a wooden floor, the installer I had put
    down a 1/4" underlayment over the old floor (after removing the old
    vinyl) and put the new floor over the new underlayment. There was lots
    of glue and gouges in the old subfloor as a result of removing the
    floor The adhesive would clog a floor sander in nanoseconds.
    
     Why not get the old floor up and put down ceramic tile? You would have
    to get alll the old glue up and etch it, but the grout that you set the
    floor in would level things up quite nicely. I've seen some pretty good
    deals on tile closeouts-just get enough extra to cover misteaks :')
    and future repairs.
    
    
    Dick
    
     
    
     
    
    

    Has anyone experienced very dark brown spots (which start out light
    brown) on their linoleum floor in a basement or any linoleum which has
    been put on a conrete floor?  The spots appear randomly all over and
    over a period of time are getting darker - and no solution seems to get
    them off.  Any advice/help??  Thanks.
    
    								-SKD-

My brother-in-law had a problem like this.  It was the glue (either too much
or the wrong type) that he used and it penetrated the linoleum after about
6 months.

I had the same problem.  My friend who installs the stuff told me that the
builders must had spilt stain on the floor or some type of glue like .1 said.
The flooring just sucks the stuff up through the linoleum.  You will not be able
to remove it.  I do remember seeing a lot of stain spilt on the floors (PIGS).
My stain started to apear in about a year.  It reall P*ssed my off.  The stain
is in a place that everyone can see.  Why couldn't it be against a wall or 
someplace out of the way.....   Oh well

    re: last two
    
    So, the only way to get rid of the stains is to strip the old linoleum
    off and somehow get rid of the "spilled stuff" and then reinstall new
    linoleum?  Aaargghh!
    
    							-SKD-

    
    The concrete was not sealed properly before the vinyl was put down.
    If another floor is installed without sealing it will happen again
    in time.          Mike

    In reviewing the notes in this file about flooring, I didn't notice
    any notes regarding the advantages/disadvantages of having vinyl
    tile over vinyl sheeting.  Does anyone have any info. about vinyl
    tile?  Brand names?  Quality as opposed to vinyl sheets?  This, of
    course, is mainly for the kitchen, foyer and bathrooms.
    
    Thanks in advance for your help!  
    
    							-SKD-

    Last year we redid our kitchen floor. The floor had been tiled (vinyl
    (?) squares) by us about 17 years ago and wore out.
    So we went shopping for new tile squares. According to the retailers
    we spoke to, tile comparable to the stuff we had no longer exists. It
    is either much better (and just as -if not more than- expensive as
    sheet vinyl (such as upper grade Congoleum), or much less expensive and
    awful chincy. (where the surface is actually a PICTURE and NOT
    material. This was a big surprise to me. Does anybody have different
    experiences?
    
    
    				herb

    
    
    I'm about to put down Armstrong Solarian tiles and have a few questions
    about underlayment levelers.
    
    I put down 1/2" PTS underlayment with about a zillion underlayment
    nails.  I then mixed up a batch of Dependable Underlayment Leveler (or
    words to that effect) to what I felt was a good consistency and applied
    it to a section of the floor.
    
    In absolutely no time, the leveler dried like cement and was anything
    but smooth!  I really did try to spread it out evenly and not too
    thick, but the results were terrible.  This was way beyond a "sand
    smooth" condition.
    
    I have sanded/scrapped most of the leveler off the floor and want to
    get a fresh start.
    
    Questions:
    
           - What is the consistency of leveler supposed to be?
    
           - Is one brand better than another?
    
           - If I have to fill all the nail heads, and there are tons of
            them, does that mean I end up leveling the entire floor?
    
    
    Thanks for any help...
    
    Kevin
    
    
    

    
    I've found that when nailing into underlayment, I seldom get much of a
    dimple (unless I'm really banging the snot out of it). I go for
    flush nails, and only use the leveling stuff to fill in any gaps,
    cracks, etc.
    
    If you really dimpled the nails, just mix the leveling stuff to
    toothpaste consistency, and fill as you would drywall dimples.
    

    Not really in line with this note... but close.  Article in the March
    30,1992 issue of "News and World Report" page 47
    
    " Construction.  Scientists at Armstrong World Industries got excited
    last year when they discovered how to kill a fungus that was causing
    blotches in hundreds of new kitchen floors."
    
    Explains the blotches in my kitchen floor. :-\
    
    MikeB.

    Mods,  
    
    Please move this if this is discussed elsewhere, I couldn't find it
    (637, 799, 1819, and 4414).
    
    I put down a subfloor of luan and the idio----person helping me filled the
    kerosene heater and spilled kerosene all over the new luan.  I'm wicked 
    nervous about putting peel-and-stick Armstrong linolium over the 
    kerosene.  I washed it with Simple Green but I left before it dried so  
    I didn't get to see if it did any good.        
    
    Will the peel-and-stick stick?
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    Thanks,
    Tom

    You better make sure you got all of the kerosene off of the subfloor. 
    Kerosene is a very good solvent and could dissolve the adhesive if it
    is still present.

    The kerosense takes awhile to evaporate.....its vaporization
    temperature is higher than gas.  What about waiting...say one week and
    then sealing the surface with polyurethane before you put down the
    peel and stick?
    
    Marc H.

Put down the stuff they use to clean up oil on concrete (or kitty litter)
to soak it up.

-Mike

      Try the obvious; stick one or one or two tiles in a spot where the
      spill was worst.  If they stay stuck for a week or two you  should
      be O.K. If they don't, you have a problem.

      If  the  kerosene  was  cleaned up before there was time for it to
      soak into more than the surface of the luan, you may be o.k.

      On the other hand, if the kerosene had time to soak the luan, then
      I suspect that you have  a  problem.   As  pointed  out  in  other
      replies, kerosene is a good solvent and dries slowly. In this case
      you should probably rip out and replace the kerosene soaked  luan.
      If  you  don't  do  this  you may have an occasional faint odor or
      kerosene for many years.

      BTW, even if the tiles seem to stick O.K., it is possible that the
      kerosene could dissolve the  glue  that  holds  the  luan  plywood
      together.   This  would cause the luan to de-laminate and it would
      almost certainly make a mess of your floor.  If you are uncertain,
      the cost and effort of replacing one or two sheets of luan plywood
      is probably well worth the peace of mind.

Need to open this discussion again.

In out kitchen we have the 12' linoleum flooring. Its been damaged and needs 
to be replaced.

In looking into the self stick vinyl tiles we have found that the vinyl is a 
better product then linoleum and is MUCH less expensive. Draw back being you
have many seams instead of one I guess.

My question deals with the floor we have down now. The sales person says we do
not need lay down a new sub-floor over the old stuff.

All we have to do is 'peel' half of the old floor up. Has anyone ever heard of
this?

Let me explain better. If you cut into the floor you can peel the top layer 
off, leaving the backing behind to be used as a base for the new floor. I tried
this when we got home and indeed it is very easy to peel away this top layer 
leaving what appears to be a gray felt backing. It seems like an ideal 
situation. 

Any comments?

Barry

    I don't like it.
    
    Putting down a new underlayment is a pretty easy job. The time spent
    is well worth the effort, and you'll have a solid surface for the new
    floor.
    
    Don't scrimp on the prep work for a floor, you'll likely regret it
    later.
    
    Edd

    That is what I thought at first, until I lifted the top layer. It seems
    that the backing of these floors are on pretty good. Perhaps it would
    even be better adhesion.
    
    I'm going to talk to the manufacture.

      First  off,  I  think  the  difference  is between 12x12 tiles and
      sheets (or roll) goods.  Both of these are almost certainly vinyl,
      not  "linoleum".   Linoleum  is generally not available and hasn't
      been for some time.  
      
      Vinyl is available in sheets as well as in 12x12" tiles.  Both are
      candidates for DIY, although laying sheet  goods  is  a  bit  more
      difficult, or at lease more intimidating.
      
      Are  you  comparing the DIY cost of 12x12 tiles with the installed
      cost of sheet goods?  If not, I'm surprised that  the  cost  isn't
      pretty  much the same.  If you don't like all the seams with 12X12
      tiles, I suggest you try looking for some stores that  sell  sheet
      goods and cater to the DIYers.
      
      Underlayment:   As  per  a previous note, DON'T do a half-a** job.
      You'll regret it if you do. Peeling up the surface of the existing
      floor MAY be O.K.  Are BOTH of the following conditions satisfied?
      
          (1)  After  peeling  the  top surface, is what is left secure?
          Tight to the sub-floor?  Doesn't lift up or shift around?
          
          (2) Is the surface smooth?
      
      If  the surface is at all loose, either peel it all up or put down
      an additional layer of 1/4" luan  plywood,  nailed  into  the  sub
      floor every 6-8 inches along the edges and 8-12 inches all over.
      
      Also,  if  the  surface is not very smooth the irregularities will
      show through.  Vinyl flooring is thin and very flexible. So remove
      or cover it in this case too.

    Apropos of the last several notes:
    
    Scenario:  A sheet-vinyl floor, well-secured with a few small gouges to 
               the surface (which could be filled in).  Age and
               underlayment of flooring unknown.  Its biggest crime is
               being extraordinarily ugly.
    
    Question:  Any reasons why a vinyl tile floor (either self-stick or
               goop-it-yourself) couldn't be layed directly on top?
    
    

    DOES ANYONE KNOW WHER I CAN GET SALARIAN I OR
    SALARIAN II LINOLEUM THAT IS PRETTY MUCH INEXPENSIVE.
    WE HAVE A LARGE KITCHEN AND THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING
    OUT THERE THAT IS LESS THAN 30.00 A SQUARE.
    
    
    

    I presume you're asking for Armstrong Solarian?  This is usually found
    at discount stores such as Home Depot, Builders Square, etc.
    
    				Steve

    I GUESS I SH/H BEEN MORE SPECIFIC ON SALARIAN II. (NOTE 4748)
    I AM LOOKING FOR A PLACE THAT INSTALLS ARMSTRONG SALARIAN II.
    
    I CHECKED HOME DEPOT BUT THEY DO NOT INSTALL IT. I WILL TRY
    BUILDERS SQUARE. WHAT CITY IS THIS LOCATED IN?
    
    THANK YOU 
    

On sort of a side note, this month's Consumer Reports has an extensive
article on the various types and manufacturers of materials (vinyl,
linoleum, etc.) used for doing/redoing floors, including full sheet versus
separate tiles, testing CR did on the various products, and tips to prep
the base before you lay down the new floor and tips on laying down the new
floor.

Tim

Re: .2

I suppose it would be better to ask where you live.  Builders Square is a
chain.  But there are many, many stores which sell Armstrong flooring.  As
for installers, most stores which sell flooring either have installers
working for them or can refer you to installers.

			Steve

    METHUEN

When we were looking for the best price on a specific Armstrong floor, we got
out the yellow pages and called each place, getting their price, installed and
not installed.  We ended up getting it from Color Tile because they were having
a sale.

Watch the ads.

Elaine

    I went out, bought  and read the consumer report and it was very helpful.
    Thank you very much.z
    u

    Well, if I had had a gun this afternoon I would have shot the boxes
    of vinyl tile I was trying to put in today.
    
    I am completely gutting the bathroom of an old house.  The floor had 
    new 1/4" plywood put down, seams were sealed, nail head holes were
    patched, floor was swept, vacuumed and lightly mopped with a  dampl
    cloth to get the dust from the sheetrock up.  
    
    I went to home depot to get my materials and asked -- is there anything
    I need besides tile and patch stuff -- no, not at all.  This still
    doesn't sound right, so I call one of the local tile palces when I get
    home -- not they tell me.
    
    Well, these little suckers wouldn't have stuck to fly paper!!  The
    tiles
    were Armstrong solarian -- Best series.
    
    Should I have put something else on the floor fo a prep?  The building 
    inspector arrives Tuesday am at 8:30 and the bathroom needs a floor to
    pass.  HELPPPP!!!!!!
    
    dana
    (PS this is not my first flooring attempt, I have done 4 ceramic tile
    bathrooms and 3 vinly sheeting floors, but this is the first attempt at
    this self stick crap)
    

    I put Solarian "self-stick" in my kitchen, and used a prep solution I
    bought from Color Tile. Goes on milky, dries clear.
    
    8 years later, no problem. I scarred one once (cigarette burn) and had
    all I could do to remove it for replacement.
    
    Edd

    re>   <<< Note 1473.20 by TNPUBS::MACKONIS "Our world-another planet's hell!" >>>
>                            -< I hate this stuff! >-
>    doesn't sound right, so I call one of the local tile palces when I get
>    home -- not they tell me.
>    
>    Well, these little suckers wouldn't have stuck to fly paper!!  The
>    tiles
>    were Armstrong solarian -- Best series.
    
    So what's the problem? or did I miss something?  I have used the
    self-stickums and would NEVER do it again, but it has nothing at all to
    do with the installation.  
    
    You have done everything I always did and the installation always went
    OK.  Just remember that the goo WILL stick to everything shy of water
    so.....  I always peeled back only about 1" of backing from one edge. 
    That let me place that edge accurately without the risk of the tile
    flopping over and adhering to something.  Then peel off the rest of the
    backing and slowly roll the tile down.  Then take a wallpaper roller to
    the tile to assure it sits flat.
    
    The problems I have run into are with floors that have heating ductwork
    running underneath.  The goo is heat sensitive; if the floor gets
    really warm, the goo loosens and the tiles actually shift.  It takes a
    couple of winter seasons to show up.  Looks real crappy.
    
    By the way, if the tiles are REALLY warm when installing, they are
    flexible.  Feels good and easier to install, but they actually SHRINK
    when they get cool again.  Not much, but it only takes a micron or so
    gap between tile to become obvious.  Store them outside a few hours
    before you put them down.
    
    Cannot beat ceramic mosaics for bathrooms.....
    
    Luck,
    Dave

    The tiles had been in the house for 2 days (heated house) and the heat
    was on when I was laying them.  They are flexible to a point.  They
    just would not adhere to the plywood.
    
    Maybe there just is too much drywall dust in the plywood, even after
    cleaning.
    
    I am headed down to the store to get some underlayment stuff to spread
    on top of the plywood.  How long does this stuff need to dry?
    
    dana
    

    >...some underlayment stuff
    
    If you're referring to my .21, I think it was on the order of a couple 
    hours...
    
    Edd

    RE: .23
    
    When I put down self stick tiles, I used polyurethane to seal the
    particle board. Worked fine.
    
    Marc H.

    
    
      I just put down some tile this past weekend....I've also done this
    a few other times. What you need to do is PRIME the surface. They have
    a special primer to use under these/ or you can use an ordinary primer.
    I say this beacause I've done it before. In looking at the job a few years
    later, it was fine.
    
      Just a few pointers for anyone else who may have troubles. When you
    lay down a sub-floor you want to be sure you cover the nails you use
    very well. If you don't....They will come back to haunt you in the form
    of a circle in the tile....USE FLOOR LEVELER. It can be an added
    expense, but well worth the price and troubles latter. 
    
    -AL
    

Gee, I put down Armstrong self-stick tiles directly over underlayment plywood
and they certainly stuck!  I didn't use any sort of sealer or primer.  Perhaps
the tiles you got were very old, or the surface was wet or very dirty.

			Steve

    
    
      I'll excuse your rudeness.....If you put self-stick tile down
    directly over the underlayment..Goodluck getting them up when you have
    to replace one or two/more. 
    
    Your advice may be free, but is it correct judgement!!!

Re: .28

Well, gee, you'd have thought I suggested applying it to the subfloor!  Indeed,
applying to the underlayment is exactly what you're supposed to do, and is
what the manufacturer recommends.  It's not SUPPOSED to come up!  If you
want to replace the flooring, you're supposed to remove the underlayment and
install new.  This is the way sheet vinyl flooring is done.

Maybe you'd be interested in my new line of Velcro floor tiles? :-)

				Steve

>                     <<< Note 1473.28 by DEMING::LAFORTE >>>
>                               -< Excuse meeeee >-
    
>      I'll excuse your rudeness.....If you put self-stick tile down
>    directly over the underlayment..Goodluck getting them up when you have
>    to replace one or two/more. 
    
>    Your advice may be free, but is it correct judgement!!!

    As a moderator.....

    I find this kind of response both unnecessary and annoying. You asked 
a question about self stick tile, someone replies with their ideas in a 
reasonable, normal tone of voice (writing style) and you come back with an 
attitude! I'm sorry, but you asked the question and got a reply that was 
useful. I don't understand why you reacted this way. 

    PLEASE, let's keep this a civil and polite discussion, I am not here to 
moderate a lot of intense feelings. It is not what I get paid to do at DEC.

    	Vic H.

Vic,

Just for the record, Dana Mackonis asked the question about the tiles.  The
person who made the poor remark did not ask the original question.

Good luck on your bathroom Dana.  I bet it looks nice.

Ed..

When putting in vinyl flooring, whether it be sheet or tiles, it is important
that the surface you apply the flooring to be:

	1.  Flat (any bumps or depressions will show through afterwards and
	    can lead to deterioration).

	2.  Reasonably rigid, and without voids (this is what "underlayment
	    grade" plywood is for.)  Ideally, the underlayment will NOT run
	    under cabinets and other immovable objects, so that it can be 
	    easily pulled up and replaced in the future.

	3.  Clean and dry.  Sweep, mop and vacuum the floor for best results.

I found that the tiles' grip was tenacious; you have some leeway until you
"stomp" on them (hence the nickname "Stick 'N' Stomp"), after which they won't
come up (if you've done the job right).

I did a bathroom with tiles in my former house and it looked wonderful when I
was done.

				Steve

I am the one who originally entered the note (thanks Ed) and what I ended up 
doing to pass the inspection was throw down an old remnant of carpet to pass
the inspection.

I am going to finish up the floors next week, I think the floors were just too
cold even with the heat for the tiles to stick.

I may be confused about what underlayment is.  Since this is an old house (1812)
there is lots of different type of wood involved here.  What the seller did is
put down 1/4 plywood which maybe one person is calling underlayment and another
subflooring.  This 1/4" _stuff_ was mailed to whatever is underneath it.  I had
patched this and was attempting to place the tiles on this surface.  The heat
had been on for two days befor I tried and the floor smoothed and cleaned well.
However, there hadn't been heat on for almost a year and with the plumber working
on the room located over a dirt crawl space the covering of the outside walls
underneath were removed so this floor was virtuall suspended over cold air.

Like I said, I just think the floors were too cold.  

I had gotten mad that night and piled everything back into the truck and was
going to return it all, but after the helpful notes in this file, I will count 
to ten, breath again and try it all over in a week or so.  The idea of putting
polyurethane down over the plywood sounded like a good idea to seal in any
loose dirt that may be still there.  Has anyone else tried this before or should
I get the stuff from the tile store and spread that on?  Both seem to accomplish
the same purpose.

Again thanks to the noters who have been so patient on my adventures with
this "House from Hell" as one contractor dubbed it!

dana

    The 1/4" is underlayment - it is not structural (which is what subfloor
    is, and that's usually 3/4") but serves to provide a smooth and
    void-free surface for the flooring.  It is nailed to the subfloor
    (or can be screwed and/or glued down) with special ringed nails which
    resist popping "underlayment nails".)
    
    You can seal with polyurethane if you want, and I suppose it would make
    it easier to pry up tiles if you wanted to, but it's not required.
    
    			Steve

When I installed Armstrong Solarian, it stuck to the plywood just fine.
You *did* remove the backing paper, didn't you?

OHHHHHHHHH--- seriously, I hope you were joking!  Of course I did!!!!

    Backing paper!  You mean they have backing paper?  So that was my
    problem!  ;^)

    I need to take up the old linoleum - it must have been on there
    for 40 years - it is extrememly hard to get up -- what i've been
    doing is using a heat gun and then lifting and breaking the
    linoleum - underneath is a ton of black goo - it is awful.
    
    underneath the linoleum is a maple floor.  We have a man 
    coming in next week who is going to sand and polyeurathane
    the wood floor.  
    
    how can i get the linoleum up -- that is easier than what i'm
    presently doing - so that it doesn't wreck the wood floor
    underneath --- and how can i get the black goo off also?
    
    thanks,

    Try 3m SafeStrip. I used this to take the residue from floor covering
    off of plywood subfloor and it worked great. After I ripped off the
    floor covering, there were large areas of backing material and the
    mastic adhesive. After slopping this stuff on and waiting, I could
    scrape off the mess easily. Is expensive, but saved me a lot of
    aggravation.

    thanks for the quick response.... any tricks for getting the linoleum
    itself off eas(ier)??  that is proving to be very difficult ....
    
    i will try the safestrip...where do i buy it? any hardware store?  
    
    I'm just nervous that i won't have enuf time

    Try dry ice to pop the tiles,,(if you can find it up your way)
    
    I helped a friend remove tiles a few years back,,made a frame of 1x4's
    and dropped a 12" sq block of dry ice into it. moved the frame from
    tile to tile with an old broom handle. 
     The cold of the ice caused the tile to shrink rapidly enough that they
    popped off the glue (we could actually hear a low but audible cracking
    sound). move the frame as soon as you hear the pop and you should be
    able to lift the tiles with a putty knife.
     The glue remains behind,,still stuck to the floor ..but the tiles are
    loose.
    
    Doug

	Is there any chance that the 40 year old linoleum
	contains asbestos? Ripping it off willy-nilly could
 	release asbestos fibers and create an even bigger
	mess for you to deal with.

	I would try to get it checked before ripping it up.

We had the same deal in our kitchen, but two layers of tile.  The people who sanded the
floor took the tile up  and sanded away the black goo for an extra dollar a square foot 
over the price of sanding and finishing.  

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

This subject is already under discussion in this file, in the topics listed in
the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your question is
already answered, or you may find a note where your question is an appropriate
continuation of the discussion.  These were found using the keyword directory
(note 1111), and you may find other notes relating to this subject by examining
the directory yourself.  Nearly all the people likely to respond use NEXT
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We do welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a problem that may
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examining these notes, you wish to continue the discussion here, send mail.

Vic [Moderator]

    i am the author ... it's ok to write lock the note, and i appreciate
    all the replies ... i am just lucky i went home last night, and my
    son and his friend had ripped out all the old linoleum.... they told 
    me if i  have things i cannot do, to ask them ... so i am very lucky.
    
    i tried to follow instructions by going to note 1111 ... maybe you have
    to be a computer genius to understand all that stuff ... so i looked 
    for the key word - which is 41 for linoleum... but note 41 is about
    ladders and chainsaws.... 
    
    am i the only one who does not understand note 1111 ... most of my
    friends, who are not computer whizes.... ask me how to get into notes,
    how to add a note, how to everything in notes....
    
    i am just commenting

    
    i tried to follow instructions by going to note 1111 ... maybe you have
    to be a computer genius to understand all that stuff ... so i looked 
    for the key word - which is 41 for linoleum... but note 41 is about
    ladders and chainsaws.... 
>>>>>Note 1111.41 is the index to all notes for keyword "LINOLEUM". Note 41 
does happen to be about ladders and chainsaws, and for some strange reason 
is listed in that group of notes. The rest of the notes listed in 1111.41 
is about linoleum and how to work with it. 

>>>Sorry if our standard reply with the index listing misled you, I am only 
trying to help people find answers that have already been discussed in this 
file.

    Vic, moderator

    I have a vinyl kitchen floor that picks up scuff marks quite easily and
    I can't get rid of them with the usual floor wash solution...even with
    scrubbing.  Is there sometheing that will remove scuff marks from
    vinyl?
    
    Jim

Try a bottle of Coke (regular or diet) and that will take off the marks.

    I am not certain of the brand of vinyl flooring we have ( Armstrong ?),
    but our installer recommeded we use paint thinner for scuff marks
    when regular cleaner fails.  Works great and no problems after
    5 years.  We only use this occasionally and apply sparingly.   
    
    Suggest you check with a dealer for your brand before you try this
    method.

I have found notes talking about installing self-stick tiles but none with
regards to removing them. Does anyone have experience with removing them
and have some suggestions for removing the glue from the sub-floor. I pried
some tiles off last night with a paint scraper but this was pretty messy &
the glue is everywhere an sticky as hell! Thanks...


				jpn

Now you know why you aren't supposed to apply tiles to subfloor and should
use underlayment instead...

		Steve

    Heat on the surface of the tile will loosen the glue underneath so that
    you can silde a putty knife underneath and lift the tile - do it when
    the tile softens up.  I have used a hair dryer with success.  Usually,
    a solvent such as isopropal alcohol will remove the residual glue, but
    it will be a chore and you will use quite a bit of alky.  Your best bet
    is to put down a layer of masonite over the subfloor.
    
    Luck,
    Dave
    

My sub-floor is actually tiles that are glued to a slab and the self-stick
tiles are attached to those tiles not a plywood sub-floor.

The house came with the self-stick tiles! Just my luck....

    
    Was the tile placed on the sub-floor or on top of hardwood floor?  If
    it was on hardwood floor, try refinishing the floor by sanding.  I saw
    a guy on This Old House wet sand a floor that has old vinyl flooring
    adhesive on it.  He wet sanded with a solvent.  The solvent he used was
    kerosene.  I'm not sure this is such a good idea, but thats what he
    did.  Kerosene is highly flammable, but so is isopropal alcohol as
    recommended in -.1.....
    
    Good luck!
    
    Stu

re .4:

You mean he used an electric sander with kerosene?  One with a motor that
makes all kinds of sparks?  Was there at least a disclaimer telling you
that this is a professional stuntman and you shouldn't try this at home?

    I saw a TOH show where they did this. They did indeed make "don't try 
    this at home" noises, or at least talked quite a bit about the 
    precautions.  There are both fire and fume issues.  It did not look
    like a diy project to me. 
    Margaret. 

    
    
    Dont you just love it when they do thoes "Dont diy at home" things!!
    
    When I did over my house, the owners had place the stickum's in the
    living room.... Dont ask me why???   But I used my propane heater.
    Just held the burner over the tile and it come up no problem.  Had
    the room done in notime.  Then I install w/w carpet.  So leaving the
    glue made the padding stay in place.  Worked great.
    
    JD

    
    Try a cloths iron. I have an old onem that someone gave me. Start in
    one spot and them start moving the iron in the direction you want to 
    remove while removing the old tile or linolium with a good stiff
    scraper. Works everytime.
    
      I did this for a bathroom floor and a kithchen floor that had the 
    linolium glued to the 1" plywood ( no underlayment ). After taking up
    the linolium all that was left was spots of the glue which came up with 
    a quick sandig using the sander. This is all a bit time consuming, but
    works for me. 
    
     I understand from a linolium contracter that they have a large unit
    that heats a large portion of the floor and does this much quicker.
    
    Have Fun, and wear knee pads !
    

    
    I had a similar situation, only in my case it was sheet vinyl over
    tiles over a slab.  The tiles came off the slab much easier than trying
    to separate the vinly from the tiles, so I just removed both layers at
    once.  (The older glue on the tiles was brittle, and they just pop'ed
    off).  
    
    I used a flat bladed shovel, the kind you might use to get ice
    off of your driveway (flat blade, about 9" wide -- and sharped up on
    my bench grinder).  I used a utility knife to cut the sheet vinyl
    (which was holding the tiles together) into manageable chunks.  I
    dreaded that job, but it went along better than expected.
    
    Re .4:
    
    Be careful if you choose to sand off the residue.  Some older floors
    contain asbestos, so you don't want to end up sanding any 'stuck' tile
    residue (well, at least *I* don't).
    
    ...Ken

        How do you find out if old tiles contain asbestos?  Since my house is
about 32 years old, my assumption is that the floor tiles may contain asbestos.
Do all the tiles from that time frame contain asbestos?  If memory serves right,
I think the home inspector referred to them as asphalt tiles.

        I would like to remove the tiles, but it they have asbestos, they
will just get covered over.   The tiles are on a slab floor that is just
begging to get refinished.  Getting the tiles up should be fairly easy since
the mastic has lost most of it's holding power.

        Anyone know of a product that could be used to seal the asbestos tiles?
My guess is that polyurethane or shellac would not stick to the tiles.over.   The tiles are on a slab floor that is just
begging to get refinished.  Getting the tiles up should be fairly easy since
the mastic has lost most of it's holding power.

        Anyone know of a product that could be used to seal the asbestos tiles?
My guess is that polyurethane or shellac would not stick to the tiles.



					Thanks,  

						Jim

    I have used a rented wallpaper steamer to lift tiles easily and
    quickly. With the machine I rented from my local hardware store I was
    able to remove all the tiles from a 12x15 room in just over an hour. I 
    just moved the steam platter to the next two tiles as I was lifting and
    scraping the two that were just heated. Tools required were, knee pads
    or something to kneel on that you can disgard later, a 6" wide putty
    knife, a 1 1/2" putty knife, a container to scrape your knives on to 
    remove residual glue and lots of old rags. I used a 5 gallon lard
    bucket. One last point, these tiles were put down by the previous
    owner, over a beatiful hardwood floor, about six years befor I bought
    the place. The steam did no damage to the flooring that I have noticed.
    I then, some weeks later, sanded and refinished the floor.
    Rick...

Unless you know for certain that the tiles DON'T contain asbestos, assume
they do.  That's the advice the tile manufacturers give.

			Steve

    I'm going to install VCT (Vinyl Composition Tile -- the stuff used in
    office buildings) on my basement floor.    The floor was sealed with
    a clear masonry sealer (like Thompson's Water Seal, but another brand
    which escapes me just now) about a year ago.  Do I need to strip it off
    somehow -- and if so, how?

    
    What's the best way to remove carpet glue from vinyl tile?  I
    have wide strips about 15 inches wide in several places.  I
    tried an adhesive remover but it eats the tile.  Is there something
    a bit less destructive?  I want to eventually tear up the old
    tile and put in ceramic tile but for now I thought it would be
    nice if I have something to cover the cement.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Adele
    

You might _very_carefully_ try a heat gun and a putty knife being careful
not to heat the tile so much as to loosen its adhesive. Other than that,
you could experiment with some other solvents to see what might affect
the gunk on the surface without touching the tile. If the gunk is at all
soft and sticky still, you might try a lubricant (e.g. WD-40) to see if
it'll rub away. Other common solvents to try would be nail polish remover
or rubbing alcohol. It's difficult to say without knowing the tile or
the adhesive. Stronger solvents (lacquer thinner, acetone, etc.) run
more risk of damaging the tile surface.

-Jack

    
    Thanks Jack,  I'll try a heat gun.  The glue is old and is no
    longer sticky.  The glue under the tile is very old also but I'll
    try it first in an area which won't show too much.
    
    Adele
    

Help!


I just bought a house and I am in the process of
replacing the old flooring.   The kitchen and dining
room are hard wood (oak) covered with a layer of linoleum
and glued carpet.  Boy is it a mess!!

I have tried to scrape off the extra layers and thought 
there must be an easier way.  I'd appreciate any help 
I can get.  

Thanks

Judy

There are several promising notes listed in 1111.41.

    Also, be aware that if the linoleum is 15-20 years old, there is
    a good chance that there is asbestos in the backing material. Whatever
    you do, don't use a sander or anything else that will release the
    asbestos as airborne particles. You might consider either just removing
    the carpeting and then putting .25" luan plywood directly over the 
    linoulem.
    
    Good luck,
    
    JBS

    
    I have just removed another linoleum floor in a remodeling project.
    I have found the easiest way is to steam up the glue by using an
    old steam iron.  First, I wet the glue and cover it with an old wet towel.
    Then I take the steam iron and place it either directly on the wet glue
    or on the wet towel and let it steam.  The heat softens the glue,
    and it comes right up with a putty knife.  (Be sure to really ventilate
    the area doors, windows open.)  I also wear a mask to avoid breathing
    the vapors.  
                                                   

I just removed my bathroom linoleum floor.  It was glued to the
cement slab we have on our first floor.  I found that it was a
three step process.  First, I peeled up the floor, which removed
the linoleum from its backing.  Then I used a putty knife to scrape
away as much for the backing/glue as I could.  Last, I sprayed
warm water over the surface and used a razor blade type window scraper
to remove the rest.  I did the whole floor (10' x 8') in about 4 hours.

It's a pain to remove, but you will be able to get it all off eventually.
Just be careful with a razor blade on hard wood.  I assume you'll get
the hard wood refinished/sanded before staining/urethened?

    
    	Some things I'm willing to do myself; some things not!  We are
    buying a house that has hardwood floors in the kitchen, but they're
    under some vinyl flooring (we're guessing that's what it is from old
    photos) and the vinyl is under carpeting.  We'll pull up all the
    regular carpeting ourselves, but I'd like to have someone pull up the
    kitchen mess (especially after reading that old vinyl could be secured
    with asbestos gunk.)  Does anyone know of a flooring company that will
    do this?  The few I've called will rip up regular carpeting but not
    this mess!
    
    	Any leads appreciated,
    
    	Justine
               

Vinyl is not secured with asbestos gunk.  They used to sell "vinyl-asbestos
tiles."  The asbestos was mixed in with the vinyl.  I'm not sure if they did
sheet goods this way.

    
    	Well, whatever, we don't have time to scrape the floors, so I'm
    still looking for a floor refinisher who will...
    
    	Again, any ideas...
    
    	Justine

    My kitchen floor had a layer of linoleum and a layer of tile over
    hardwood floors.  The floor refinishers charged me an extra $1 per square
    foot plus all sanding belts used to take it up.  I'm sure it was a good
    deal for him and a good deal for me.

	Has anyone ever laid vinyl (sheet or tile) over particle
	board?  I thought I read in another note that a couple
	of home-work readers had done it with no problems.
	However reading the installation instructions for one
	brand of self-stick vinyl tile it says to *not* install
	it over a particle board underlayment (and in fact goes
	on to say the warrenty is automatcially voided if it is).
	This is in the kitchen.  I'm not worried about spending
	an extra $100 on 1/4 inch luan and lay it over the
	particle board underlayment, but I am worried my knees
	are not going to hold out :-))

    RE: .62
    
    Untreated particle board sucks up the glue from the vinyl...thats the
    problem.
    
    I sucessfully laid down self stick over particle board, by sealing the
    particle board with a couple coats of polyurethane varnish.
    
    Marc H.

    
    
    	I have a concrete floor which had a two foot crawl space
    	under it, and dirt below.
    
    	I want to rug it.
    
    	Can I just lay plywood down and liquid nail it or do I need some
    	space in between the concrete and plywood?
    
    	Thanks,
    
    	/Andy

    RE: .-1
    
    My recommendation would be to use 1x4PT lumber with the 4" face on the
    floor.  Powernail these as well as glue them down. (I am assuming that
    the floor has already been sealed.)  Attach 3/4" ply on top of these
    boards and voila!! you have a floor ready for padding and carpet.  I
    have used sheetrock screws for the best attachment to the 1x4s.
    
    Dan

What you do depends partly on whether the floor is level, dry, and how 
"hard" a finish floor you care about.  

First determine if it is dry.  Securely tape a 1 sqft piece of poly to the 
floor and let it sit for a day or two.  Then take it up and check it for 
condensation. 

Also check for level...you can use a water level and/or long straight edge 
and regular level to get a good idea.

If it is dry and whether or not it is level you can just lay the carpet 
right on the slab using a special pad designed for concrete.  I'm told it 
feels very close to what less expensive carpet/pad on a regular floor would 
feel like. (If anyone has any thoughts on this I'd like to hear...I am 
converting a concrete porch into part of the house and haven't decided yet 
what flooring option to go with.)  But definately do not just lay plywood 
on the concrete, you could have loads of problems.

If you decide to use sleepers...be sure you use pressure treated as .-1 
says but make sure you add a vapor barrier (even if the slab is dry).  
However you'll want to level the floor first if it is significantly out of 
level. If you try to just nail a sleeper over an irregular surface and/or 
shim it, with any kind of traffic you can be sure the nails will loosen and 
the floor will eventually rock or squeek, etc.   Assuming it is level (or 
"level enough") do the following.

-Seal the floor with Drylock or some other concrete sealer
-Snap chalk lines for the sleepers on 16in centers (or less)
-Lay a few beads of caulk along each line and use concrete nails
to nail the 2X4s down.  Make sure you leave at least a .5" space between 
the end of the boards for air to circulate.  
-Lay 4-6mil poly over the sleepers and nail down 5/8th or 3/4 plywood

If you want to go even farther, you could spread asphault (roofing tar) on 
the concrete, then sleepers, then rigid insulation and plywood, then 
carpet.

This is lots of extra work but it should be worth it.

    We are preparing to use self-stick Armstrong tiles in a 1/2 bathroom
    renovation we are doing.  The guy at Home Depot said to apply a coat
    of all things wall paper sizing to the luan prior to putting the tiles
    themselves down and that they'll adhere better. Anyone else do it this
    way?

I'll cast my vote:
		never heard of that !

    A different aspect of this topic, but rather than start a new note:
    
    Does anyone have some tips to share with regard to *removing*
    self-stick tiles? A number of years ago, I replaced the worn
    (and ugly) sheet-vinyl floor with Armstrong Solarian self-sticks.
    Looked good for a number of years, but two problems have arisen:
    	
    	- the area under the bath-rug has deteriorated (due, of course,
    	to leaving the damp rug on the floor instead of draping it over the
    	tub...another lesson learned.) and need to be repaired/replaced.
    	Haven't looked closely, but the underlayment may also need a repair
    	or replace...:^(
    
    	- we've outlasted our original 5-yr plan, and will stay in this
    	house for the foreseeable future. Therefore, we'd like to remodel
    	the bathroom, including a probably change in color scheme.
    
    So...sometime before the end of this year, I'll be faced with ripping 
    up the self-sticks and replacing with (probably) ceramic tile or (possibly,
    but not likely) oak parquet. Any general tips would be appreciated, but
    would also appreciate answers to the following:
    	
    	- assuming I go with ceramic, would it be OK to leave some of the
    	adhesive residue on the floor?
    	
    	- rather than rip up the self-sticks, would it be feasable to put
    	down a new underlayment over the self-sticks, and tile over this?
    	If so, how thick should this be, assuming I use 1" or 2" tiles? 
    
    As always, thanks in advance.

    Fred
    
    Just nail 1/4 inch plywood sheathing over the top if your going to
    tile.  You need a good clean stabile surface to lay tile over.  We were
    trying to rip up real solid linolium sqares off the kitchen and were
    told to do this it worked and its been 10 years on the tiles without a
    problem.
    
    Brian

    	To lift the self stick tiles use a  hair blow drier on HOT setting.
    
    	I was told this, and was very skeptical of how fast it would be,
    but it was about 15 seconds per tile.   Use a pliers to pull on tiles
    so you do not bake your fingers and get them all glue.
    
    

    .40:
    
    It may well be prudent to lift the tiles in the dampened area, to
    determine the condition of the underlayment.  Better to make any
    necessary repairs before laying the ceramic.
    
    Removing one or a few to check on this will also give you some idea of
    the difficulty of removing all of them.
    
    Dick

    
    
    Don Houle
    285-3835
    salem::houle
    
    
    Does anyone have any experience with PERGO flooring, that is a German
    made, laminated flooring?  I saw it in Color Tile stores and I'm
    thinking about using it in my home?  Any info would be appreciated.
    
    
    Don
    
    

    Don,
    
    	Try doing a "dir/tit=pergo *.*". 
    
    Tom

    
    I forgot to mention this is a floating floor, which floats? on a 
    layer of foam.
    
    
    Don
    

  3687  GRANMA::GHALSTEAD    26-JAN-1990     0  Floating prefinished hardwood floors-with sharp edges

    I have checked the recomendations in this string on Pergo flooring and
    followed all thge notes pointed to, (Pergo btw is Swedish, not German).
    
    My wife and I would like to install some, however she would like to see
    one installed. Do you have one and are you willing to let us come and
    look at it? (We live in Nashua so southern NH or the Husdon/Berlin area
    of Mass where her family is from would be best)
    
    Thanks,
    
    David
    Dtn 381-2168  Home 603-888-1042
    VOLAPM::HAIGH
    

This note has the most "color tile" replies in it so I'll post this here:

Article 38741 of misc.consumers.house:
Path: zk2nws.zko.dec.com!peavax.eng.pko.dec.com!depot.mro.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decuac.dec.com!haven.umd.edu!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nwgw.infi.net!news.infi.net!not-for-mail
From: [email protected] (Steve Rogovich)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house
Subject: Color Tile bankruptcy
Date: 29 Jan 1996 04:33:07 GMT
Organization: InfiNet
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Message-ID: <[email protected]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: larry.infi.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]

  Yesterday (1/27) I went into a local Color Tile store to inquire about
an order I had made several weeks ago. I was told by the manager of the
store that Color Tile has gone into reorganization bankruptcy. He said
they are closing 250 of their 800 stores around the country. He advised
that my order was going to be delayed somewhat in view of this so I
cancelled my order. Just thought this would be of interest to all..


Steve Rogovich    [email protected]
Norfolk, Virginia  USA

We ran into this while getting a quote from the local Color Tile store here in 
Marietta, GA.  The guy my wife talked too seemed to just pretend it was 
nothing to worry about, because it wasn't affecting his store....  We're 
looking at other places now.

Dave

Our home has a tiled floor for most of the main floor.  These are 6-sided
ceramic tiles measuring 6 3/4 inches across the flats.  We want to rip up 
these tiles and re-tile using 1 foot square tiles that look like stone (they
might even be stone rather than ceramic).  I know how to get the old tiles
up, but how do you remove the cement under the tiles?  I've had dreams of
sitting on the floor with a chisel for years trying to get that stuff up.
Also, we will need to put another layer of plywood over the existing floor
once the tiles are removed since the floor is 'springy'.  Does anyone know
what grade of plywood, how thick, and how I should fasten it down?  Should it
be glued as well as nailed.

Thanks,
Jim

>         <<< Note 40.483 by ZEKE::BURTON "Jim Burton, DTN 381-6470" >>>
> might even be stone rather than ceramic).  I know how to get the old tiles
> up, but how do you remove the cement under the tiles?  I've had dreams of
> sitting on the floor with a chisel for years trying to get that stuff up.

Is it thin-set mortar? It might be easier to just pull up the subfloor and
replace it. You could try wetting it...

> what grade of plywood, how thick, and how I should fasten it down?  Should it
> be glued as well as nailed.

Total plywood thickness at least 1 1/4 inches, so if your subfloor is 3/4",
add at least another 1/2". More is better, within reason. The "up" side
should be an "A" side, i.e., smooth, knotholes filled. Our subcontractor
glued and nailed (about every 8") the extra plywood, but I think I would skip
the glue. Make it easy on the next guy that has to do this, 60 years from
now.

    re:making it easier for next time
    
    	If the underlayment is screwed to the floor, then the morter is
    applied, I'd think that it would be pretty tough to remove the screws
    since the mortar will cover them. You could use ring nails if you ever
    thought you'd want to remove it in your lifetime.
    
    	You didn't mention if it was mastic or morter under the tiles.
    Either way, it might be easier to just rip up and replace the
    underlayment. If it's mortar, you might be able to do a mud job
    right over it, but that's iffy.
    
    	Ray

>>    	You didn't mention if it was mastic or morter under the tiles.

It's a gray cement-like material.

Jim

> It's a gray cement-like material.

If it's a thin coating, it's thin-set.
If it's a thick slab, it's a mud job.

Thin-set will crumble if it gets wet for long enough, but I can't see doing
it over any very large area.

    We have an older home.  The master bath floor is ceramic tile.  (Very
    small ceramic tiles). It's an old mud job (or so I'm told) and in 
    excellent condition - with the exception of the color. The original color
    I have to believe was true white.  It has dulled and grayed/yellowed 
    over the yers.  Any suggestions on what I should use to
    clean/brighten/whiten it?  Bleach?  Thanks.