Conference 7.286::home_work

You didn't say whether the oil is ignited during the rumbling so I don't
know if what I am going to say applies.  I observed the same rumbling with
my FHA furnace.  The rumbling ocurred at startup before the oil ignited.
The problem was a faulty high voltage transformer whose output is used
to create a spark to light the oil.  The rumbling I had lasted several
seconds until the transformer could get its act together and create a
spark.  I never did determine why that scenario actually makes the furnace
rumble.  If you examine the transformer in the dark when the furnace is
running you may see some arcing outside the combustion chamber.  I
think that this indicates a faulty transformer.

Thanks for the response.I will try what you suggested.

Last night I got the rumbling again.It happened after the oil is lit.
I think maybe the oil feed needs adjusting.It probably is feeding too
much.

Do you know when the nozzle was last replaced?  I have a service contract
and they come once a year to clean/service the furnace.  I know that nozzle
has been replaced several times over the last eleven years.  I don't know
why it is replaced periodically; possibly the oil is somewhat abrasive
and wears the nozzle.  There is a rating plate on the furnace that states
the maximum nozzle size to use and I think it would be bad if it wore to
too large a size.  The only other thought I have relates to my delayed
ignition.  Possibly the igniting of some oil the fell to the bottom of the
combustion chamber before ignition causes the rumbling until it is burnt.
 Does your furnace ignite within a 1/2 second or so of the pump starting?
Of course, if the rumbling is intermittent, you may not be at the furnace
when the delayed ignition happens.

Marty

	I had a delayed ignition problem where the chamber was saturated
with oil before it ignited.  This happened at 3 am and the house filled with
thick oil smoke.  We woke, got everyone up and out of the house.  The fire
department came down.  It ended up that we got enough insurance money to
clean all our oil soaked walls (we cleaned it up ourselves)that we bought
a new burner.  A blessing in disguise.  Delayed ignition is usually caused
by the igniting unit.  
							Jorge'

	I have a different concern with my FHA system, humidity.  My house
is super dry because of the FHA system.  I have a humidifier buildt into
the system but it rusted out.  It is a long tub with absorbing fins in it
that remain wet as the hot air flows by and thus humidifies the air.  It
is maintained thru a float valve that keeps the water level constant.  The
problem is the tub and float chamber rusted out and leaks.  I tried fiberglass
and bonding but it never lasted.  I would like some info from anyone about
the availability of these units, price, and possible repair (lasting repair).
In the meantime I got a console humidifier that takes care of the kids while
sleeping.  One night my 2 yr old woke up with a bloody nose it was so dry.  

						Dry Martini's Only Please
							Jorge'

I dont know when parts(as nozzle) were last changed on my furnace,
but I am about due for my yearly checkup.I'm thinking of going
to a different oil company because they some times give you intro-
ductory rates which may include free cleaning.Also my current oil
company wants $95 just for a basic check-up.That seems pretty high.
BTW,I am the same person who originated this note-I am under a 
different username right now,
			Scott

    This summer I plan on finishing off the downstairs on my split. I plan
    on having a coal/wood stove, and no door going upstairs, but rather,
    have the stairs open so that the heat can rise.  In addition I'm
    thinking of putting a cealing fan in the entrance, above the stairs. 
    
    Also, for 'air conditioning', I was thinking of a "whole house" attic
    fan in the hall cealing to suck the air out of the house (mainly thru
    basement).
    
    My questions are these:
    
    Since the ductwork for the FHA heat is not installed for downstairs
    (which is made up of the foil wrapped fibre board stuff),  what
    type of ducting / vents / fans / recirculation thingys should I
    look into.  What is available?
    
    Can fans be installed that can be turned on anytime to circulate
    air around the house?
    
    Should I take the insulation out of the cealing downstairs so that the
    heat will rise thru the floors?  
    
                                    		.dave.
    
    (The house is 2x6 plywood construction) 

    

    
    In addition to all this, I would like to move the gas pipe that
    the builders installed.  The pipe is 2" and runs across the cealing
    of half of the room.  It hangs about 3" below the 2x8's, and would
    be a pain to have to lower the cealing on that side (of the main
    beam).  I'd like to move it next to the main beam in the center
    of the house.  Who would I have to contact to have this done, or
    can I do it myself and save the money. (is that legal?)  - I could
    say that the house came that way!
    
    If I can do it, how? - turn off the gas and move it? - any special
    sealers required???
    
    						.dave.

    One of this year's episodes of "This Old House" covered installation
    of some new gas pipes as part of the renovation.  The impression
    that I got from it was that even if it was legal for you to do it
    yourself, you would probably still want to have someone experienced
    do it because of the dangers involved if it isn't done correctly. 
    Also, the cutting and threading of that steel pipe is best done
    with some expensive tools that experts tend to have ready access
    to.
    
    Probably the place to start with talking to people about having
    it moved is with your gas company.  If they don't do it they might
    be able to suggest plumbing/heating contractors that do.
    
    Rich

    Warning - It is very, very difficult to heat a split with a stove
    in the basement (make that 'lower level').  I tried it, and had
    to run the stove so hot that it was 90 degrees down there in order
    to keep it close to 70 upstairs.  I know other people with splits
    who have had the same problem.  The design of the house just doesn't
    allow efficient heat transfer.  You can probably alleviate this
    somewhat by cutting holes in walls and putting fans in all over
    the place, but I didn't want to do that.  I tied my wood stove into
    my main heating system (oil-fired FHW) through a device called a
    "Fireplate", and that works great!  It's comfortable all through
    the house, and the stove helps heat domestic hot water, too.
    
    This may not apply to your case (I think you said you had a FHA
    system), but you still might want to consider putting a hood over
    the stove and tying it into your ductwork, rather than relying on
    convection.
    
    -db
    

    I have a wood stove sitting in my besement which I have no intention
    to use. it's about 6 years old, and was not used at least for the
    past 3 years. and it has its own flue/chimney. Please send me a message
    on KATIE::CHAI if any one is interested.
    

    
    re .3 (or .4) 
    
    That is why I want to find out about auxiliary fans for the FHA
    system.  I plan on re-working the return ducts so that I can select
    where the return air can be sourced from.  When the stove is in
    use, I will source the return from the cealing of the downstairs
    and just turn the fan on (by a timed switch) to circulate the air.
    During the summer (when it's cool down there), I will source the
    air from the floor of the downstairs, etc.  The return source upstairs
    will only be used occaisionally.
    
    So...  What kind of accessories are made for FHA duct systems?
    ie valves, electrostatic cleaners, fans, etc..  How do these things
    work (not how, but how well)....
    
    						.dave.

    What I have planned for the multi-level house that I am building
    sounds like it would fit your situation.  I am putting a hood over
    the wood stove in the "lower level" and ducting this to the furnace
    as the cold air return.  In the hood will be a thermostatic switch,
    the same as the one in the hot air plenum of the furnace, which
    will be wired in parallel with the existing one in the furnace.
    This way, when either the furnace plenum is hot, or the air over
    the wood stove is hot, the furnace blower will come on automatically
    and heat the whole house.  By setting the house thermostat a bit
    low, the furnace will only come on and burn oil when the house drops
    to the lower temperature.  As long as the wood stove is going, only
    the furnace blower will run.  So, if I burn wood, the heat gets
    blown through the house by the furnace blower, and if I don't burn
    wood, the furnace starts burning oil to heat the house, all
    automatically.  
    
    The cost for the second plenum thermostat is $10.00 to $15.00.
    
    jim d.
    

    I have a small split (44 ft.) with a small woodstove (Vermont Castings
    Resolute) in the downstairs family room and I think it does a very
    good job of heating the whole house.  The bedrooms are above the
    family room and vents are cut in the floor of one bedroom, at the
    end of the hall between the other two bedrooms, and also in the
    bathroom.  Two of the vent cutouts have fans but I rarely turn
    them on.  The entrance to the family room has been enlarged to
    about 4 1/2 ft. and the heat from the woodstove rises up the
    stairwell and heats the living room, kitchen and dining room
    quite well.  The kitchen and dining room are the coolest parts
    of the house come morning--they are the farthest away from
    the woodstove and, they sit over the unheated garage.  
    
    I removed the insultation from the ceiling downstairs too.
    
    Can't help with info on ductwork for FHA heat.  I'm stuck with
    an all-electric house!
    
    Carole

    We have a split entry with a family room downstairs and a living
    room, dining room, and kitchen above it.  The bedrooms are off to
    one side of the house.  I first put in a whole house fan that cools
    the whole house.  It works very well.  The neighbor (with a similar
    house) across the street has installed air conditioning only in the 
    upstairs.  In the summer, the downstairs stay cool because the heat
    rises.
    
    I've installed a coal/wood stove in the family room.  I don't have
    a door on the stairway, so the heat flows up the stairs.  It is
    comfortable in the family room (except at the ceiling) and the heat
    flows upstairs to the kitchen, LR, and DR.  At about 20 deg. F outside
    without too much wind, the temp in the living room without additional
    oil heat is about 68 deg.  The bedrooms don't benefit from the heat,
    so the oil heat is used there (there are 3 zones of FHW heat). 
    I did not put any holes in the floor, ducts, or any fans to move
    the heat.  
    
    My suggestion is twofold:  (1)If you are going to buy at stove anyway,
    try the stove without putting in holes or ductwork.  (2)Rent a kerosene
    heater of equivalent BTU output to see how a stove might work. 
    The kerosene heater is for test purposes only, so I don't think
    there would be any great danger involved (if it is kept burning
    in a safe manner).
    
    Good luck!

	I have a forced hot air heating system.  I also have a wood stove in 
the cellar.  When I have the stove going the cellar gets pretty warm.
Rather than put grates in the floor to get the heat upstairs I'd like to get 
the heating system blower to trip on without turning on the heat.  I'm hoping
that this will help circulate the warm air upstairs.  Anyone know how this can
be done?  If it's any help it's a Rheem system and the thermostatic components 
are Honeywell.

    You have a couple of choices. If you don't mind a manual system
    it is very easy to wire a switch in parallel with the fan limit
    switch in the furnace to apply power to the blower motor whenever
    the switch is on.
    
    On furnaces equiped for airconditioning there is a relay setup that
    will select a cooling blower speed and a heating blower speed. The
    thermostat is mounted on a subbase that has the switches to select
    heating/cooling and auto/manual for the fan. Your furnace could
    be setup for cooling and you may not know it. If it is you should
    be able to locate the connecting screws inside the furnace for the
    thermostat wires. A heating only setup just uses two wires (white
    and red) while a heating cooling setup has four wires (white, red,
    green, and blue).
    
    The wires have following functions:
    
    	White - 24V common 
    
    	Red - heat
    
    	green - fan
    
    	Blue - cooling
    
    Connecting any of the red, green or blue wires to the white will
    select the appropriate function. It would therefore be very easy
    to connect a switch (or even a switch that would close when the
    air around the woodstove was hot) between the white and green wires
    to turn on the blower.
    
    If you have a heating only system than a manual switch to apply
    power to the blower would be the easiest to install. But it would
    be possible to mount  a relay and use 24V to control it.
    
    Nick

    There should be a small thermostatic sensor on the hot air plenum
    that controls when the fan turns on/off.  Buy a replacement sensor the
    same as the origional, place it somewhere above the wood stove,
    and wire it in parallel with the existing one.  Now, when either
    one senses a high enough temperature it will start the blower.
    
    Now, if you can put a sheetmetal hood over the wood stove and duct
    it into the cold air return.....
    
    Jim D.

    
    I have a typical hot air system an a Nashua wood stove with a built
    in blower system. I heat the whole house (split level) with the
    wood stove. I have ducted the output of the stove into the hot air
    duct of the furnace, and use that duct to move hot air from the
    stove through the whole house. I have been doing his for 4 years
    and it works great. Both systems are independent and therefor manual.
    It may not be as efficient as it could be, but it was simple to
    do, and the cost was minimal. Even when the stove goes out in the
    middle of the night when it's real cold, the furnace comes on and
    there is no problem with both systems using the same duct.
    

    Having read a ton of notes on furnaces without finding the answer
    to my question, I thought I'd give the sundry furnace gurus
    another chance to show their stuff.  And I humbly preface this
    with the admission that what I know about furnaces is essentially
    doodly-squat, so don't be surprised if my terminology is a bit
    off. 
    
    Here is my (perceived) problem:  
    
    My gas FHA furnace seems to come on regularly as it should
    according to the thermostat setting (though it's hard to really
    tell, since we keep the thermostat at 50�). 
    
    However, the air coming out the floor registers doesn't feel hot.
    It is generally slightly warm, and sometimes not even that.  Never
    cold, though.  In previous residences, the air was always much
    hotter. 
    
    So, I went down the basement to see what I could figure out. There
    are five ducts (not counting cold air return).  With the furnace
    blazing away, four of them were just warm to the touch and the
    fifth was hot.  The four so-so ones lead to registers.  The one
    hot one is about six feet long and goes into what used to be the
    chimney (now blocked off and not used for anything that I can
    see). 
    
    What should I be looking for?  Are there adjustments that can be
    made?  Does this sound like the beginning of end?  If so, I don't
    want to know. 
    
    If it makes any difference, the furnace is a Carrier, about 15
    years old according to the guy who inspected the house before we
    bought it.  No air conditioning, no humidifier.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
        Sid
        

    The duct that you say is hot sounds like it is the smoke pipe, it
    is supposed to be that way. The rest of the supply ducts may be
    hot directly over the furnace but are are usually only warm further
    away from the furnace.
    
    The furnace blower is normally set to come on when the air inside
    reaches around 120 and will turn off when the temperature drops
    to about 80. These values vary since the fan control switches
    are usually adjustable. You could have a poorly adjusted or
    defective fan switch.
    
    The adjustment is relatively simple but if you really don't know your
    way around inside I'd suggest having a service company come it to look
    it over. The replacement cost for the switches is under $20 and armed
    with the little bit of information that I've given you, you can protect
    yourself from being taken.
    
    Nick 

Something simple to check first. Has the air filter been changed recently?
The reply about the upper and lower limits is good, I moved into an 
apartment once that the upper limit was set so low that the burner
kept coming on for short periods and the fan never seemed to shut off.
The symptoms sound the same. I don't remember what I finnaly set the
limits at. This sounds like a good time to have a burner man come in
and do a cleaning and adjustment. For what that costs, it is usually a
good investment.

bill

I assume that this is a 'new' house and you don't know what PM was done 
on the furnace. I had a similar situation with an oil-fired system that 
was fixed by replacing the filter and having the oil company I deal with 
tune it up. The firebox has a system of passages that had gotten clogged 
and once they were vacuumed out, the furnace started acting the way I 
remembered it should...HOT air emanating from all the registers.

So, I suggest that you get a tune-up before doing anything else...it may 
be that simple...

Hope this helps...
		  Chris

RE: .1
	If it is your blower control switch it can be easily adjusted, 
which it sounds like it is to me too.

	Locate the control switch inside your furnace. It's the control
with the calibrated temperature dial. There are 3 tab setting for OFF,
ON and LIMIT (or OVERTEMP). [Some only have two: OFF/ON and LIMIT]
OFF and ON control the temperature that the blower cycles at, while the 
LIMIT switch shuts down the furnace incase it overheats because of a blower
failure (you should not have to adjust this switch which is usually set 
around 200 degrees). What you what to do is adjust the ON tab (setting) 
20-40 degrees higher than it is. Now turn on the furnace via your thermostat
and observe the temperature dial. You will see it turn as the heat exchanger
heats up. When it reaches the ON setting, the blower will come on and the 
dial will go back down (usually about 10-30 degrees) and remain at a certain 
temperature. This is your "steady state" temperature for your furnace 
(with current atmospheric conditions). Steady state temperature is a function
of several things; thermostat setting, blower speed, temp of air in cold air 
return, air resistance in ducts, etc.) Basically what you what to do is 
adjust the ON setting so its 10-40 degrees higher than the steady state 
temperature you observed. This allows the heat exchanger to have enough 
residual heat so it can handle the "recovery period" after the blower turns 
on. Conversely, the OFF setting should be 10-40 degrees lower than the steady
state temperature. Adjust this by feeling the temperature coming from your 
heating registers in your living area after the burner has shut down and 
the blower is still going. You what to remove as much heat from the heat 
exchanger as you can but still have warm air coming from the ducts. So if 
the air is too cool just before the blower shuts off, raise the OFF setting. 
If its still warm enough lower the OFF setting. With a little trail and error 
you'll find the settings you like for your system.

NOTE!!! ALWAYS hold the temperature dial when changing the settings
	(tabs) on it. It can "freewheel" and if it moves you'll
	lose the calibration.
					/Glenn

    .2 suggests buying a thermostatic sensor like the one already on
    the hot air plenum - but that might not be the optimal temperture
    to distribute heat from the woodstove, you might want to investigate
    other thermostats, those for starting central air conditioning will
    turn on when temperture exceeds the setpoint (inverse of the thermostat
    for controlling your furnace).
    
    Our new house has the cold air intake for the gas-fired hot air furnace
    located in the highest part of the second-floor cathedral ceiling with
    a fairly long duct run to the furnace.  My plan (after consultation
    with the electrician) is to wire a line voltage thermostat in the grill
    of the duct intake, turning on the blower if the temperture at the
    intake exceeds a threshold value.  I may also add a manual "blower on"
    switch, and a manual override of the automatic blower control for those
    times when the woodstove threatens to cook us all out of the house. The
    electrician did warn that caution is necessary, the blower must operate
    correctly if the furnace burner is on, *AND* the furnace cutoff switch
    must still cut all power to the furnace including the blower. So you do
    need to be careful to get the wiring right for that to function
    correctly - it might be important the first time somebody thinks
    the furnace kill switch cut all the power and goes poking around
    in there....

    From the author of .0, thanks for the info thus far.  However,
    having been thwarted in my attempts to implement the suggestion in
    .4 by a shoulder separation and then a vasectomy that took more
    than two weeks to heal, I finally made my way into the basement
    this evening.  Actually, access to my basement deserves an entry
    in the "Why did they ever do that?" note.  Maybe later. 
    
    Anyway, when I got down there, this is what I found (within the
    limits of keyboard sketching): 
    
    
                   __________________________________________
                  /                                          \
                 |       CAM-STAT INC.                        |
                 |    _                                       |
       __________|   / \                                      |
      /          |   \_/                                      |
     |           |                _____                       |
     |           |               /###/#\                      |
     |           |              |###/###|                     |
     |           |              |##/####|                     |
     |           |              \#/#####/                     |
     |           |               -------                      | \
     |            \__________________________________________/   |
     |                 /     /     /   |   \ #####     \   LIMIT |
     |                /     /     /    |    \  ####     \        |
     |               /     /     /     |     \   ###     \       |
     |                                                           |
     |              90    95   100    105    110   115   120     |
      \___                                                    ___|
          |                                                  |
          |                                                  |
           \________________________________________________/
    

    
    The "circle" with the line through it is where you stick a
    screwdriver to turn the white plastic cam to make it point at the
    setting you want.  Currently, it is set at 115�, as indicated in
    the diagram.  Beneath this gizmo is a sticker with the words: 
                                                            
    
                                IMPORTANT
                                ---------
    
              The numbered graduations on the fan switch are
              the "OFF" setting.  The fan will turn "ON" at
              about 25� above this temperature. Factory setting
              will meet average installation conditions, but
              for best results, adjust when balancing system. 
              
              "LIMIT CONTROL SETTING" prevents discharge air
              temperature from exceeding 200� F. 
              
                                                    A-75575-A
              
    
    I saw no other places to make adjustments than the one cam. I
    assume that the LIMIT setting is out of my control.  Is there
    anything tricky about making adjustments with this gizmo (excuse
    my highly technical language)?
    
    Mind you, I may still call someone to come give the furnace a good
    once over.  Having always been a renter before this winter, I
    never paid much attention to furnaces; they were in the slumlord's
    domain.  I don't like having lots of things in my house that I
    don't at least nominally understand, however, so I thought I'd try
    to glean a little more from you furnace wizards. 

    Now that I'm feeling better, I'd like to feel warmer, too.
    
    Sid

    RE: .5
    		As you noticed, I avoided talking about the fan controls
    that only have one OFF/ON setting. These don't provide the resolution
    of the previously mentioned units. I would suggest you just turn
    up the OFF/ON setting several degrees (5-20) to force the ON temp higher.
    That way you'll have more latent heat built up before the blower
    turns on. You have nothing to lose trying this. Just remember where
    the fan control was set originally so you can always set it back.
    						/Glenn
                                          

    	I know very little about furnaces since our furnace when I grew
    up was: go down to basement, make sure coals and fire are still
    going, shovel small coal in first, shovel in at least 4 pieces of
    approx. 1 foot diameter coal (up to 8 if it was going to be a cold
    night), close door, pile lots of covers on the bed.
    	So, given the above, my question is this.  I have a FHA furnace
    (lennox).  I found the control for shut-off temp as stated in a
    previos reply.  The furnace kicks on OK and blows plenty of hot
    air.  What I wonder about is when the furnace fan is shutting off.
    The fan will kick off, wait anywhere from 30 seconds to 2 minutes,
    then kick back on for a short period of time.  Is this normal? 
    It has done this every since I bought the house.  This action is
    hard on the fan relay.  I have had to eplace it twice in 5 years.
    	If the above is NOT normal, what are some of the possible fixes???

    
    I believe that's a 'feature' built into some furnaces. After the
    burner shuts down, the blower stays on until the heat exchanger
    cools to a certain point. After the blower turns off, the heat
    exchanger is probably still warm enough to heat the now-still air
    around it. After a short time, the blower turns back momentarily
    to scavenge this heat. 

    RE:. .7,.8
    
    	That's not a feature, but a blower control switch once again 
    in need of adjustment. Lower the blower "OFF" setting a few degrees 
    lower. That way you'll pull off that residual heat your not getting 
    while the blower was on the first time (and sparing the blower/relay
    all that additional cycling for nothing). 
    	The idea is to get all the heat you can from the heat exchanger
    (remember the burner has shut off a long time ago now and only the
    blower is on) without blowing cold uncomfortable air into your living
    space. Therefore, you can turn your "OFF" setting down to the point
    where the air coming from your heating registers is comfortably
    warm just before the blower shuts off.                         
    
    [Note: As mentioned before, the blower controls with the "OFF" and
    "ON" temperature settings "tied" together (i.e. Raising the ON temp
    raises the OFF temp and visa versa) involve more of a trade off to
    adjust and take alittle more tweaking to find the right setting.]
    
    /Glenn
     

    re .7, .8, .9
    
    Just make sure you're not battling the furnace design. I know of
    a 14-year-old oil FHA system on which the second fan cycle really is a
    scavenging feature built into the fan circuit.

Question:

Recently I've seen some apartments where the FHA vents were in the ceiling.
Now I imagine that that would be great, cause you can put your furniture
where ever you want without worrying about the vents, but is there some drawback
to havinbg the vents in the ceiling?  Any personal experience?

Jim.

    re .11 - off the top of my head it seems that ceiling vents might have
    a drawback because hot air is less dense and thus tends to rise while
    cold air sinks to the floor.  Delivering the warm air to the top of the
    room would thus seem likely to contribute to stratification and
    uneven heating.  Since my personal perception of FHA is that it
    is not a particularly even heat, in designing our system I tried
    to place vents so that they would contribute to mixing the air to
    even out the heat delivery.  (Now that the woodstove is our major
    heat source, this is a moot point until I add the secondary blower
    to distribute the stove heat through the same FHA system.)

anyone else out there have allergies?

I do, and am thinking of adding an air cleaner to my FHA heat/AC 
system.  I was planning on a standard electrostatic air cleaner, but 
the contractor is pushing a 'passive' "SPACE-GARD" filter that is 
supposed to be better, and filters out particles down to 1 micron.

anyone have any experience with these?

    Yes, It is close to impossible to get rid of everything but the
    electro-static filters do a good job. The price was very high
    when I got mine I belive $200~ was the price I paid. 
    Have they come down at all?
    
    This is the type that replaces the regular furnace filter right?
    
    -j
    

    The Space Guard 'passive' filters are cheaper at first, but will
    cost you about $25 a year to replace the element. With the
    electrostatic units the initial cost is higher but you can then
    wash the cells as often as you like.
    
    If you have very bad allergies you might want to use an electrostatic
    unit and follow a more frequent cell washing schedule. Replacing
    the Space Guard elements frequently could be expensive.
    
    Nick

I'm looking for a store in the Worcester area that sells humidifiers for
FHA heating systems.  Tried Sommerville Lumber with it's "5 employee to
1 customer" showroom ratio and was told "We don't sell 'em".  

    Try Sears.  They've got 'em.
    

    Can anyone give a little more info on air filtration/purification?
    For example, what are the trade-offs between free standing units
    and things that are built into the heating system? How effective
    are these units, and what kind of things do they help with? My wife
    has sinus problems (not necessarily allergy related), and we find
    it helps to use a warm air vaporizer in the bedroom at night. Would
    air purifiers of any sort help with this sort of thing?
    
    - Ram

A sinus problem per-se is usually humidity sensitive - but NOT 
ncessarily sensitive to pollen levels.  An ultrasonic humidifier is 
quite useful to keep humidity in the mid-range in the winter, as a  
de-humidifier or air-conditioner in the summer.  She may also want to 
carry a bottle of "ayr" or "ocean" (salt-water solution for applying 
humidity directly to the affected area).

I, unfortunately, have some allergies.  I did a teo-month trial with a
'room-size' electrostatic air cleaner once in a 2-room apartment
(recommended by my Dr.) and found it quite useless.  However, the
in-central-system unit in my folks' house worked wonders - for
ALLERGIES. 


Apparently the fad now is a 'passive' air filter called "space-guard".
Supposedly catches particles in the single-micron range.  Advantage:
No moving or electrival parts => nothing to break. Disadvantage: 
$15-$25 for a new filter once a year. 

My wife and I both suffer from allergies.  In Maryland, the problem is 
particularly bad due to the humidity during the summer.  We installed 
an electronic air cleaner on our FHA system and found--a couple of 
hundred dollars later--that she was *worse* off with the thing on than 
when it was switched off.  

The dealer had heard of similar problems but only rarely.  One guess 
was that the thing produced small amounts of ozone which could be 
irritating to some people.  I noticed on a recent brochure for a 
similar unit a statement in bold letters that it was "ozone free," so 
the problem was apparently not that rare, and might well have been her 
problem. 

Allergies and sinus problems are frequently related.  

The Bionaire thing we use here at work is fairly effective against 
cigarette smoke and probably would do some good if pollen is the 
problem.  But I agree that the whole-house unit is appealing--
especially if they have licked the problem we encountered. 

Alex

	Boy have I got problems!

	My oil-fired FHA system heats my house but at the same time fills
	it with exhaust fumes.  No smoke, just fumes.  The independent
	oil-burner guy said my heat exchanger was cracked and thus the
	exhaust was being circulated with the warm air.

	The furnace is only 7 years old and is/was made by Blueray Systems
	Inc., which went out of business.  Thank God they warrenteed it for
	10 years though ;-).  I think I'm up the proverbial creek.

	My oil-burner guy said he can install a new system, complete for
	$1700.  Names he suggested were Ford/Carlin (not the car) and
	Duomatic/Olson.  They come with a 1 yr warrenty and he adds 1 year
	himself.  You can get 10 or 20 year warrenties on the exchanger (and
	we know how handy it is to have warrenty).  The current system is
	85,000 BTU.  The Duomatic/Olson gives you the flexibility of
	increasing the nozzle size to increase the BTU's to ~120,000.

	My questions are many:

	1. Has the ever happened to anybody else?  Is this furnace really
	   dead after 7 years!!!

	2. Who built YOUR FHA furnace?  Anybody have Ford/Carlin or
	   Duomatic/Olson?  How has your furnace performed?  I don't want
	   another worthless lemon.

	3. Is $1700 a good deal?

	4. Do I have recourse against the company that installed the lemon?
	   They are still in business and not returning my calls.

	5. Should I get a second opinion from another company?

	My suggestions are few:

	1. If you have a Blueray system, run for your life (or by spare
	   parts from me :-))


	Thanks for any help,
	Phil

    Do you have a humidifier on the system? They are frequently responsible
    for premature failure of the heat exchanger. The water drips down
    inside and it rusts through.
    
    Rich
    
    

    I bought one from my oil dealer.  They will clean the unit out
    for me each year when they do burner maintenance.
    
    			Ira
    

    re: .1
    
    Nope, no humidifier on it now.  I don't know if the previous owners
    had one on and then removed it.  I noticed some rust on one section
    of the duct work and one of those screw in taps in the cold water
    line near the furnace.
    

      Did the oil-burner guy open up the system to see what the problem
    was or did he assume this from what you told him?  If the heat
    exchanger is in fact cracked, I wonder if it can be welded.  I really
    don't know anything about the internals of the system but it's a
    thought.                             
    
    -Jim
    

    RE: .3
    
    Yes, he did open the plenum and point out the crack on the front
    of the exchanger.  I did ask him if it could be repaired but he
    said he didn't think any type of fix would hold because of the heat
    swings of the exchanger.  Anybody know if this is B.S.?

    Two Items
    
    1) If you are thinking of having it welded, I suggest you call
    Mark Brown at Precision Weldments in Chelmsford MA. (617) 458 4890
    I have had Mark do a lot of welding for me, and I am very pleased
    with the quality of his work. No, I do not get money for saying
    this. If Mark does not think a weld will hold, he will tell you. 
    Mark is a one-man buisness. He has done an aluminium bicycle frame
    for me, A stainless steel pressure vessle, seats in my car...etc..
    
    2) I renember *hearing* somewhere that welding a heat exchanger
    is illegal. I have no idea if this is true or not.
    
    George Dvorak BARNUM::DVORAK 297-5386

    If it really is a crack and not a rust-through condition then you
    shouldn't have any problems with welding it, aside from having to
    remove the heat exchanger from furnace (not an easy job). The heat
    exchangers are "soft" steal as apposed to cast iron and will weld
    very nicely, in fact that is how they are made.
    
    If the burner unit is good see if you can get a new furnace and
    have the installer use your current burner. This may save you a
    few bucks.
    
    Nick

    Humidifiers should be drained and flushed monthly during the heating
    season.
    
    Nick
    

    RE: .6
    
    The spot that he pointed out to me did look "bubbly" like rust was
    undermining the steel.  I did ask him if any of the other parts
    had any value (circular, burner) and he said no, he would just haul
    the whole furnace out and trash it.  This I thought sounded shady.
    He said the burner for this particular brand of furnace was custom.
    This burner is made by a different company whose name escapes me
    at the moment.  But it is a well-known name.
    
    If there is rust on the exchanger, is there any way of removing it
    before welding?  I don't know why it would be illegal to weld an
    exchanger.  Of course, after it was removed from the furnace!  It's
    sounding more and more like I need a second opinion from another
    oil company and possibly a welding outfit also.

    Keep the input coming!  I'm beginning to feel a litte more hopeful.
    
    Phil
    

    Beware.  Humidifiers may cause rusting of heating ducts and furnace.
    My FHA just bite the big one and it MAY have been caused by a
    humidifier.  You might want to ask people who install them about
    this aspect and see if their answers sound reasonable.
    
    Phil

    Another opinion might be a good idea.  Are you anywhere within range
    of Boylston, Ma.?  I've had good luck with Carlisle Fuel Co.  Phil
    Carlisle is very straighforward and honest, from all I've seen.

    RE: .8
    
    I've talked to the company that originally installed the system.
    I'm having them come out and render their opinion of the situation
    and give me estimates for replacements if it is dead.  He's charging
    $28 for the service call.
    
    He has been very helpful.  He gave me the address and telephone
    number for a "field service rep".  The line was busy when I called.
    Probably another satisfied customer ;-).  I'll see what I can get
    from them.  He did say that welding, if it did take, would only
    be a temporary fix.  If the metal is fatigued, he said the weld
    may hold for a year or a day.  I wouldn't sleep well knowing this.
    I think welding is out.
    
    By the way, I live right next door in Holden.

    I don't know if its illegal or not to weld a heat exchanger but it
    won't suprise me. When you consider what's happening, spewing exhaust
    gases into the air ducts for the house, your lucky you discovered the
    problem and not the ParaMedic's! If it needs welding then chances are
    there other weak spots as well. Better and safer to just replace the
    whole unit. 
    
    Can't you replace just the heat exchanger? If not, I would stay
    away from that brand of furnace. It's like buying a new car because
    the exhaust system is shot.

    Charly

    
    EUREKA!!!  PAY DIRT!!!  DRINKS FOR THE HOUSE!!!
    
    I called the number that the installing dealer gave me and found
    out I can get a replacement heat exchanger for $148 plus freight
    COD!  The 10 year warranty is full for the first 5 years and prorated
    for the next five years.  These damn warranties always seem to screw
    you out of full replacement but it's a hell of a lot better than
    $1700.  Now to find out how much to get a new exchanger t installed.
    Probably $1552!
    
    Moral of the story:  Don't believe everything you're told.
    			 Now I'm suspicious of my oil-burner service
    			 guy...
    

    If you decide to switch burner companies, Sterling Plumbing
    and Heating are fantastic but impossible to get hold of.
    Ouellette and Wheeler from Fitchburg also seem good and have
    done lots of work for us.

    Have a go at putting in the new heat exchanger yourself. FHA is
    just a pile of sheet metal, and you have all summer to finish
    the job. Even if you have to buy tin snips and an electric drill
    you will be far better off financiall 

    The original installer of the furnace said the job is an all day
    affair for two people.  The furnace basically has to taken down
    to scratch to get to the heat exchanger.  Cost is $350.  So I've
    gotten the initial cost of $1700 for a new installation down to
    $500 to install a new heat exchanger and provide any misc.
    parts/gaskets that are needed.  He's coming out tomorrow morning to
    confirm that is indeed the heat exchanger.  $28 for the call.
    
    RE: .13
    I've never done anything with a furnace except turn the thermostat
    up or down.  I don't think starting by tearing the entire thing
    apart is a valid option at this time.  I enjoy trying to do things
    myself, but I think I'm a bit out of my league with this one.

    Has anybody out there ever replaced a heat exchanger?  Any special
    tools or materials needed?  Or is my gut feel correct?
    

    Go with your gut feel and have them do it. It sounds like you don't
    have the confidence yet to tackle something like this. There are
    no special tools required (there are some that can save time).
    Basically you have to take the entire furnace apart since the part
    you want to replace is the only thing left after you remove everything
    else.
    
    I've been on a few furnace replacement jobs where the unit had
    to be dismantled to fit into the house. I was not a fun job and
    did take some experienced people the better part of a day to do,
    so their estimate doesn't seem out of line.

    Nick

    We have a 'dry base' boiler that got a little plugged up last year
    (the guy who used to own the house never cleaned it) which caused
    the base to melt (Dry base boilers have the burner in the lower
    part which is not surrounded by water, and thus lots of heat causes
    them to melt a little)
    
    
    Anyway, I called the manufacturer and he told me that the base is
    replacable, but I have to tear the whole furnace apart.  I plan
    on doing it this summer some time by myself.  When I'm finished,
    I'll call the local rep for the manufacturer (HydroTherm) and have
    him come over and inspect it.  (I asked, they'll do this for a small
    fee)
    
    I couldn't get anyone to come out and repair the furnace, they all
    wanted to replace it for a cost of about $1800 or so.  the new base
    is $267 and gaskets, and other stuff should cost me another $100
    at most.
    
    
    It doesn't look like that big of a job.  If I totally screw it up,
    it won't cost me any more than $300 or so, so I think it's worth
    the gamble.
    
    
    -bill
    
    

    RE: .16
    
    To me, the INCREMENTAL cost of having someone replace the heat
    exchanger is not worth the potential problems and worries.  I don't
    want to have to worry about the oil line and exhaust connections.
    Did I do them right?  Will they leak?  Should I have replaced that
    gizmo?
    
    I made an agreement with the oil-burner serviceman.  He won't get
    into the computer game and I won't get into furnace replacement.
    I don't mind paying for his 20-30 years of expertise.
    
    With all of the independent servicemen around, I can't understand
    why you can't find anyone to do the job?  In the summer, many of
    them are DYING to get more business.

        Where should we put the forced-hot-air registers in the house-we're-
    going-to-build-someday - the floor or the wall?  What are the arguments
    (if any) pro and con, including cost and/or effort of installation,
    furniture location, etc?
        One I know of would be that in-the-floor registers would make the
    flooring more difficult to install - hardwood or wall-to-wall carpet or
    whatever.
        Also, is there a brand or style that someone could recommend?

    I don't like the floor jobbies.  They always fill up with furballs and
    old lollipops and it makes furniture placement that much harder. 
    They MUST be cheaper to install, but the wall-mounted ones are almost
    totally unobtrusive.
    
    -joet

    Another problem with the floor mounted vents is that unless they
    are in the center of the room, the head always seems to just follow
    the wall up, and keep the cieling nice and warm.
    
    With the wall mounted units, the air is forced out horizontally
    before it is allowed to rise.  I would think that this would give
    you a better utilization of the heated air.
    
    - Mark

The biggest problem with *any* registers is where to place them in relation to
any furniture: bookcases, desks, couches, so that the furniture, whatever they
maybe in the future, will not block the ducts.

The only solution I can think of is to have built in furniture sharing the
space where the register is, such as a builtin bench seat in front of a window,
or a bookcase with the register built into the base...

Jim.

RE: .1

	I put a section of screen in each of the vents in the house, and
that seems to prevent anything from falling into the vents.  Also, most
stores sell plastic deflectors to prevent the hot air from going straight
up, and force the air to go out along the floor....

    Can anyone recommend anyplace to get registars and ducts for 
    forced hot air. I am finally at the point of bolting up some 
    heat registars for my new room addition to my old system.
    
    The system was rated the extra capacity, but I am unsure who 
    to contact in getting the materials.
    
    thanks
    john

I've heard that new construction is now using nonmetal Forced Hot Air heating
ducts:  Plastic, or sealed Cardboard.  It's supposedly cheaper, and more
efficient; less heat conducted out through the walls of the ducts.

Anybody know anything about this?

Jim. 

    I'd check in the yellow pages; try under heating or some variant.
    I would imagine that you should be able to get the standard stuff
    at any heating distributor.  If all else fails, you could have the
    pieces made up at a sheet metal shop.
    
    One thing that is being used in some (a lot?) of new construction
    is a flexible, insulated, plastic pipe.  Sort of a rather large
    insulated dryer vent hose.  This is supposed to be really great;
    but I haven't seen anything about it other than the installed system.
    
    - Mark

    	I saw some on TV (This Old House, I think) a fiber glass insulation
    material with silver paper fron and back. It comes in sheets about 1/2 in
    thick that you cut and build into box sections and seal with duct
    tape. They were useing a special knife which cut a notch into fiber
    glass which allowed the sheet to be folded into a box.
    	As always check with local building codes as to the use of this
    stuff. Where it can be purchased? Your guess is as good as mine.
    
    				...Dave

    Summerville Lumber has a pretty good supply of ducting and registers
    off different sizes and configurations.
    
    					Kenny

    I saw the fiberglass ducting used on This Old House.  I've seen
    it used in conjunction with metal and flexible tubing.  The flexible
    stuff seems to be used when it's laid on top of the ceiling rafters.
    The fiberglass ducting when it's under the joists (basement) and
    then metal where all else fails (weird bends).
    
    -al

    The fiberglas duct board tends to come apart after a few years,
    that tape won't hold forever. It also tends to get damaged very
    easily if it is in a vulnerable location.
    
    If you want to add a new outlet or two the round duct is probably
    the easiest for the typical do-it-yourselfer. The elbows can be
    adjusted to strange angles, and through the use of sheet-metal
    screws, duct tape to seal the joints and metal hanging straps you
    can come up with a solution that should be fairly solid. 
    
    When you start to get into rectangular duct things begin to get
    a bit harder. Experience in fabricating and installing metal ducts
    is helpful, especially when you get into some tough spots. Knowing
    how to make a special offset or transition fitting from flat sheets
    of metal is sometimes required to end up with a job that fits into
    an existing structure. Take a look in a sheet metal shop sometime
    to get a feeling for the quantity of special metal working tools
    required.
    
    If you know what you want you can have someone fabricate what you
    need. If your not sure how to specify the ducts or assemble them
    later then you are probably better off having them install it also,
    compared to the cost of the fittings their installation time may
    not be that much more.
    
    I wish I could show you all the tricks through this notesfile, but
    it is too difficult to do. Once you've watched someone put this
    stuff in you could probably do most of it yourself.
    
    Nick

    >>    I don't like the floor jobbies.  They always fill up with furballs and
    >>    old lollipops.
    
    Most of the registers in my 102-year old house are in the floor,
    and most of them have a piece of heavy hardware cloth (3/8" squares)
    cut to size and set into them to stop most of what's dropped thru
    the louvered registers from rolling down the duct.
    
    The large register in the dining room had no screening in it and
    recently, while vacuuming it out, I wondered what has been accumulating
    in there over the years.  I took a small mirror and flashlight and,
    like an upside-down periscope looked down the duct.  In one cranny,
    there were 7-8 glass marbles (some cat's-eyes) and one plastic soldier.
    
    Ah, the joys of owning an old house...
    
    JPM

< Note 1319.12 by DRUID::MEANEY "JIM" >
                     -< Lets heat up, keeps marbles out ! >-

    The large register in the dining room had no screening in it and
    recently, while vacuuming it out, I wondered what has been accumulating
    in there over the years.  I took a small mirror and flashlight and,
    like an upside-down periscope looked down the duct.  In one cranny,
    there were 7-8 glass marbles (some cat's-eyes) and one plastic soldier.
    
AHA.....sorta like the 18th hole at the miniature golf course......I always 
wondered where those little colored golf balls went to!

8^)

    I have enough trouble walking without tripping over floor vents!
    I've got wall vents and they seem to have been placed so that they
    rarely interfere with furniture placement.

	Well, time to put in the final chapter.

	I had the replacement heat exchanger put in last week.  The final
	dollar totals were:

			$132.00		Heat exchanger (prorated cost)
			  28.00		Diagnostic visit
			  57.62		Shipping
			 350.00		Installation + misc. parts
			-------
			$567.62		Total
		       -  30.00		Cleaning (that would have had to be
					done to the old one anyway)
			-------
			$537.62

	K. W. Stidsen of Worcester installed the heat exchanger.  He was the
	one who originally installed the furnace and tipped me off to the
	replacement option.  He told me I basically have a new furnace now.
	They went through the whole system.  Cleaned and tuned it.  I would
	recommend them.  It's a father/son team.  The father seemed very
	thorough and meticulous.

	Savings:
			$1700.00	Suggestion of "old" service co.
		       -  537.62
			--------
			$1162.38

	Lesson learned:

	Make sure the person who works on your furnace receives technical
	updates from the manufacturer.  And by all means, check around
	for alternatives and estimates. For $1162 it was certainly worth
	the time and aggravation.

     I know this is very late, but I thought I'd leave my experiences
    here incase anyone uses this for reference. 
    
     I have an oil fire FHW system and had trouble with the furnace
    rumbling when it started.  The service man found that the ignition
    unit was faulty.  It produces a high voltage (roughly 11kv I believe)
    and my was putting out about 8kv.  He used and instrument very similiar
    the the type used to measure the high voltage on TVs.
    
      I pay $25 per year for a basic cleaning.  The company I have also
    offers a service contract (about $60), but I've elected not to get
    it (and haven't needed it yet - knock knock).
    
        John

    I have an oil/wood forced hot air heating system that only has ducts
    going to the first floor of my house.  I'd like to extend the duct
    work to the upstairs but I only have one place I can do it, in the
    hallway closet.  That could let me put direct heat to the bathroom
    and one bedroom.  I don't have a way to get direct heat to the
    other two bedrooms without remodeling the whole first floor to make
    a shaft.  My question is this,  can I run the duct work up into
    my attic space and branch off from there?  Could I insulate the
    duct work in the attic?   If anyone can offer me some suggestions
    or alternatives I would appreciate it very much.  
    
                                                 Thanks,
                                                         Dave

depends on how long an attic run it is, and how powerful your existing 
system is - if it was sized for only the existing ducts - a long run
through the attic may not be feasible.  Anyway, its not that effective 
to feed hot air from the top of a room (it rises, natch?)

Are you sure there is no way to get it up to the 2nd floor near the 
other bathrooms?  You can move a fair amount of heat with only 4" or 
5" ducts, or ducts 3" x 9" or some such - take a creative 2nd look.
Maybe you can run it on a wall in a wide hallway and box around the 
duct or some such...

	I once rented a room in a house with attic ducts.  There
	didn't seem to be much air flow from the ceiling outlets.
	Maybe the return inlet wasn't placed right.

	Boxing a duct seems a good idea.  Can you make the box
	big enough to accommodate wiring or plumbing?  Might be
	handy.  (Can you put electric wire in with a hot-air duct?)

	Also, would the noise of expanding and contracting sheetmetal
	matter if it's overhead?  I have rectangular ducts running
	about 50' along the length of the house, and they make a
	racket when they change temperature.

	Does anyone know how to make quiet hot-air ducts?  Do they
	have to be mounted in some kind of slip-hanger?  Does anyone
	else have noisy ductwork?

First, as recommended before, check out the blower capacity of what you
have now - a good heating supplier ought to be able to help.

Second, DON'T use sheet metal ducts if you're going into the attic. There
are two types on non-metal insulated ducts: Square foil faced/fiberglass
insulated rigid ducts and round flexible plastic and fiberglass.

The general practice would be to run a large square duct across the attic,
feed by a good sized duct up from the furnace, and branch off that duct
with the round stuff going into ceiling registers. You could install a booster
fan in the duct going up into the attic IF you have enough BTUs in the furnace
but not enough CFM in your blower.

Spend the time to learn EXACTLY how all the parts mate - this stuff is
REMARKABLY easy to do if you use it as intended, but a real bear if you
don't.

Also, DO NOT FORGET a cold air return - preferably in each room.

Technically, the "right" place to provide heat is to place the source of
hot air near the floor of the outside wall in a room, and have the return
on the opposite wall waist high. Most folks opt for two low wall positions.

The sheet metal ducting is fine for short runs (I did a finished basment
with three 5' 3x9 sheet metal ducts). Long runs of metal ducts DO make
expansion/contraction noises that can be really annoying.

Dennis

My understandng is that you should stay away from fiberglass duct 
board, as it is an inferior material for duct work (see note elsewhere 
in this file entitled 'upgrading an FHA system for A/C" or some such).
6" fiberglass flexible ducting is the way to go.

We have an A/C system in our attic - recently (and well) installed, 
and fan noise was a problem - easily solved by partially closing the 
dampers to the ducts to the bedroom (the dampers were thoughtfully 
located back where the individual run meets the main).

so - as you put this in - don't forget to put a few dampers along the 
way.  (you may also want one at the bottom, to balance the air flow 
between the new and old sections)

    Thanks for all the input so far.  I think at this point I'll probably
    run one branch of duct work up through the hallway closet and see
    how that does.  If that's not enough then I'll probably go with
    the boxing in a shaft in the corner of the bathroom as suggested.
    The attic option seems like something I should avoid if I can. I
    don't want to make my heating systems less efficient, but I do want
    the upstairs to be comfortably heated.  Thanks again,
    
                                                          Dave

well- your heat should have no problem making it into the attic - you
might want to leave hooks for a fan, either in the main attic duct, or 
in the ceiling vents - to get it where it finally has to go

    STOP!!!
    
    
    	heat rises, if i remember correctly....   wouldn't a floor vent
    in the floor of each room which you wish to have heated serve the
    purpose?

Yes, heat does rise - but the issue you need to provide air circulation.

If all you do is cut holes in floors, and do not provide a means for returning
air from the highest heated spaces, you end up with a rather warm (a great
deal of the heat will rise) and stuffy (the air will become stagnant) room
at the top of the house.
                                                       
It will also be nearly impossible to maintain the temperature of the rooms
at the top - the amount of heat you'd need is enough to maintain whatever
temperature you like. The amount of heat you'll GET is whatever rises.

Dennis

    As a matter of fact I do have one large vent which the previous
    owner had put in to allow the heat to rise.  I'm not sure how
    much it really helps because I've never blocked it off to see
    if the room gets colder.  During the early and latter part of
    the winter I would say that the heating upstairs is adequate.
    But in dead of winter, Jan. & feb., I really need the heat
    forced into each room upstairs.  It's a 36 year old house and
    they didn't insulate as well as they do nowadays.  I'm definately
    going to put one duct up through the closet, that's no big deal.
    If I find that isn't enough, I'm sure Jan. & Feb. will motivate
    me to continue branching out.   Thanks for all the suggestions,
    
                                                            Dave

    
    	I have been trying to optimize the operation of my FHA oil
    	fired heating system before winter rolls around. As I look at
    	the various parts of the system I have a good understanding
    	how most will affect the efficiency... accept the differential
    	setting on the thermostat. Currently if I set my thermostat
    	at 62 degrees, it comes on at 62 and lets the furnace run until
    	the house heats up to 70. The large fluctuation is not a real
    	problem, although it does take a bit of getting used to. Is
    	there any way of determining whether or not a smaller differential
    	would improve the systems efficiency? Any experience would be
    	a great help.
    
    /Kevin

    I have a FHW oil system, but from what I've seen, frequent cycling
    is less efficient than long cycles.  That is why a lot of thermostats
    have a control for cycling.  So it's actually better for the
    burner to come on for 10-15 minutes and overshoot the thermostat
    setting by a few degrees, than for it to go on and off every 2-5
    minutes to maintain the exact temperature.
    
    Supposedly it is very difficult for the human body to distinguish
    a 2-3 degree temperature differential.
    
    -al

    It could be the heat anticipator in the thermostat.  This is a very
    small heater in the stat which warms the stat in anticipation of
    the room warming.  It helps prevent the overshoot problem you are
    having.  The anticipator must be 'calibrated' to match the fan control
    current.
    
    Peter Duke
    

    ref .2
    
    Since this is hot air my last sentence is in error.  The stat controls
    the burner.  The fan is controlled by the temp. of the plenum hence
    the importance of the anticipator working properly.  The stat shuts
    down the burner but the fan keeps running to cool the plenum, hence
    oevershoot.
    
    .1 is true also that short cycles are ineffecient.  The cycles could
    be stretched out some by cutting the firing rate (gal/hr) of the
    burner, but you could end up short of capacity on a real cold day.
    Somewhere there is a happy medium.  There may even be burners and
    controls these days that monitor outside temp. and adjust firing
    rates, etc. accordingly.
    
    Pete Duke
    

Re: .1

There are really two approaches to FHW: (1) to cause the thermostats to 
call for heat less often (greater overshoot), and (2) to cause the 
burner to stay on longer and come on less frequently (by adjusting the 
max boiler temperature and the delta (range) on that honeywell device.  

Thermostats usually have directions for affecting the degree of
overshoot--the digital Robertshaw has a number you can code in.  The
Honeywell boiler temperature control has an outside control for the
upper temperature range, but you must take the cover off to adjust the
size of the range (which determines the minimum temperature).

Actually, in FHW, the boiler temperature control is the key to 
determining how long the burner is on.  The thermostats really only 
control how often the circulators go on and off (which only indirectly 
affects how often the burner goes on).

RE: .* 

For FHA units, as stated above, the thermostat can be adjusted to
determine how often heat is called for. 

In a manner akin to the above Honeywell boiler temperature control, 
you can adjust the max and min temperatures for when the fan comes on.  
The most efficient is having the min temperature very low (you get as 
much heat out of the furnace as possible), but at some point it is not 
very comfortable to have relatively cold air blowing out of the vents. 

Alex

    The blower motor in my FHA furnace crapped out last week.  Disassembled
    and found a corroded/burnt out connection among other signs of general
    wear.  Kludged it back together but will probably need to replace
    it soon.  It's a 1/2 hp westinghouse induction motor mounted via
    rubber gaskets/clamps around the bearing sleeves.
    
    Someone told me these things are standard and that any old 1/2 HP
    motor will do.  Don't quite believe that - the mounting would have
    to be exactly the same as what I have and I don't notice that 1/2
    hp ac induction motors are all the same.
    
    At any rate, where do you go for something like this.  An appliance
    parts place?  Is a furnace an appliance?  The bulk of the yellow
    page ads on furnance/appliances are people who expect to do the
    repairs and pull the parts out of their truck or wherever they get
    them.  I can DIY this in 15 mins given the right motor.
    
    Jim
    
    (Keyword HEATING_FHW added, didn't match existing topics in 1111
    so new note)

    As far as I know, there are standards for motor mountings.  For
    most motors, ther are a half dozen or so.
    
    One place to check is the Sears tool catalog (them again, it may
    be in the big book; it has been a while since I did this).  There
    is a table, along with the rest of the motor specifications, that
    list the mounting plate/hole specifications.  That should get you
    started.
    
    - Mark
    

��� As far as I know, there are standards for motor mountings.  For
��� most motors, ther are a half dozen or so.
    
    "The nice thing about standards is there's so many to choose from!"

    On the old motor, find the frame number. Use this, as well as any
    part number you find, when you call the places listed under electric
    motors in the yellow pages.  And when you call, talk like you know
    what you are looking for, that may get you a lower price. And if
    they ask who is calling, say "(your name here) Job Shop, and I 
    will send someone over today to pay cash".
    
    Good luck
    George Dvorak
    Barnum::
    297-5386
     

    I just had the blower motor replaced on my 37 year old hot air furnace
    last week(under service contract, no charge) and he had the motor
    in stock on board the truck. This would lead me to believe that
    there must be some sort of standardization involved here. I would
    think that you could get the correct one by taking all the numbers
    off the motor tag and calling around to some heating supply places,
    or electric motor supplies as mentioned in an earlier note. 
    

    These motors can be repaired too.  Probably cheaper than a new one.
    Anybody ever have a motor rebuilt?  .0, where are you located? 
    I know of a couple places in central Mass that rebuild motors.
    

    	I've used a place called Total Air supply in Nashua for some
    heating supplies. You may want to give them a call (889-0100). As
    I recall they have some induction blower motors. If they don't have
    what your looking for give Heating Specialties a call (882-2726)
    also in Nashua.
    
    Dick

Before you go to the trouble of putting heat ducts in the attic, install just 
the return duct to the upstairs.  Leave enough room for the heat duct in the 
closet incase you do need to add heat ducts to the upstairs.  The return duct 
may improve air circulation enough to give the upstairs adequate heating.  If
not the return ducts will still be needed if you put in heat ducts.

Brian

For those of us who have Forced Hot Air Heat (gas in my case)...

You may raise the question: "what can I do to make my system more 
efficient (same heat for less $)".  

0) One thing you can do is to make sure the thermostat on your fan and
burner is set properly (see note 1637).  I spoke to a FHA furnace
repair person today, who also recommended: 

1) If your basement gets hot from the furnace -cut a hole in the 
air return in the warmest spot and put a vent in.  This will improve 
the heat efficiency. [this is a new one on me, anyone heard of this?]

2) make sure the 'heat anticipator' setting on your home thermostat
(the thing that slides inside the unit, with numbers like .25-.9
marked on it) matches the current in the thermostat wire (while I was
measuring the current with my Fluke multitester to be .43A, i noticed
the number .45A printed on the furnace control block - so to do this,
all you may need to be able to do is read).  [does anyone know what 
this is supposed to match?)

3) Make sure the heat coming out of the ducts closest to the furnace 
is at least 120degF.  (this is true for me, unfortunately, at the 
ducts farthest away, its only 100degF)

4) If its accessible, insulate the main heating outgo duct (usually 
theres a single large long duct with several small branches off it - 
if all the branches are at the far end of the duct, the insulation 
will help..)

other ideas????

    	The biggest single thing I did to improve the overall efficiency
    of my FHA system was to caulk and tape up all the duct joints. 
    You would be amazed how much hot air leaks out.  I spent
    two hours and $10 on materials on the job and now my cellar is 10�
    colder.  This year I wrapped insulation around the main portion
    of the air to air heat exchanger to help eliminate more heat loss.
    
    					=Ralph=

    re .5, 1)
    
    Is this something I dreamed, or is there some kind of rule about
    not having an air return register in close proximity to the furnace
    (something about possible creating a negative pressure gradient
    that could suck exhaust gases back down the flue)? Anybody ever
    hear anything like this?

can anyone suggest some inexpensive by-the-roll material to insulate 
my main heating duct?  Seems like everything I can find is $.50/sq.ft. 
- hadn't planned to spend $80 - $100 just to cut down the heat loss 
INTO the basement /j   (p.s., it also has to be less than 2" thick)

    RE .8
    	I too had trouble finding FHA duct insulation.  The only stuff
    I could find was �" thick and had an R value of 3, not worth the
    effort.  I wrapped 4" unfaced insulation around the ducts, then
    covered the insulation with 6 mil thick black plastic.  It wasn't
    hard to do and looks ok.
    	Remember not to cover the thermal shut off wiring box located
    next to, or on the ductwork.  It looks like a standard electrical
    box but has a round 'valve' type fitting on top.
    
    					=Ralph=

I'm not sure anyone can help me on this one, but, im hopeful....

The problem:  The air temp at a duct near my furnace is close to 180degF. 
However, by the time it gets 1/2 way across the house, it has dropped to 120,
and is as low as 110-115 at the far end.  

It is an old Coleman "high velocity" furnace.  The hot air leaves the furnace,
goes through a large (28"x6") main for about 24', and then splits into about
16 4" ducts, one for each vent in the house. The ducts are not abnormally
cooled elsewhere, and are well insulated where they run over the garage.  The
area around the furnace is VERY WARM, and the 24' main duct seems to shed a
lot of heat.  It almost seems as if the blower (about 900RPM) is inadaquate to
force the air through the vents, though you can feel the airflow at the far
end.  (the fact that the motor appears to have been recently replaced lends
credence to this). Does anyone know how to get more HEAT through the ducts?
would it help to insulate the main?  to increate the blower speed? 

thanx	/j 

    I would tape and insulate as much ducting as possible. (Assuming
    that "high velocity" means higher airflow speed, which probably
    means slightly higher air pressure in the ducts and resultant higher
    exfltration through duct seams.)

Just want to put in a recommendation for the "Space-Gard" passive air 
filter - (I make $0 from this) - have had it for the last 6 months now 
(in my central ventilation system) and in addition have done a number
of comparisions (spending a night with the fan off and with the fan
on).  It works, it seems to make the house significantly more
comfortable to someone with Mold, ragweed, pollen and dust allergies
(lucky me!). Its passive - nothing to break (electrostatic air
cleaners aren't so simple) and draws no electricity. The filter unit
itself costs only $140.  Installation depends on how long it takes -
any duct work company can do it.  roughly $150. 

Disadvantage:  Need to replace the filter every year or so, depending 
on use - they're $15 from the distributor.



PS: I used Jay Moody & Co in Leominister (534-9483) a duct work
company.  I recommend them VERY highly (they have done a number of
jobs in my house - #1 quality work) 

    Me too!  My furnace has been rumbling... followed by a puff of
    black smoke and the smell of "oily kerosene type smell".
    
    Now, here is more information.  It is a fairly new furnace, 6 years
    old... Burnham, Beckett and HOneywell parts. Just before winter,
    I was upstairs, when the house shook and there was a loud 
    explosion from the cellar... after I got my courage up, I went
    downstairs, which had smoke and smell... I called our furnace
    man, who came up and said it was a problem with the nozzle, which
    he replaced... It was fine for awhile, then it started again,
    not as bad, but at least several times a week, it will rumble
    followed by a puff of black smoke and the oil smell.  A friend
    of my husband's came to take a look ( he's in the oil business)
    said it needed a new "transformer"? and replaced it for him, plus
    cleaned it...  Again, fine for a few weeks... but now it has started
    again.  My husband moved my dryer, thinking that could be "clogging"
    something up, that didn't work
    
    He also adjusted the "air" flow ( I think that's what it was)..
    That worked for a bit, but now it's doing it again.  NOt all the
    time, but avery few days.
    
    Any other suggestions!!
    
    Carla
    

    I went through these problems for a whole winter last year, and
    ended up with a new burner.
    
    Things to check:
    
    	Take the flue pipe out and see if it's plugged, also look in
    the chimney for obstructions.  If you don't have enough draft, the
    fumes will back up in the chimney and eventually you'll have a problem.
    
    	If the boiler is relatively new, the passages through the boiler
    will be small, this increases the efficiency of the boiler by making
    a larger heating area in the same number of cubic feet of boiler
    space.  Make sure that these passages are absolutely clean.  A burner
    that is mis-adjusted will plug up a boiler in less than 10 minutes,
    so make sure that it's clean.
    
    	Check the nozzel and flame retention tip of the burner, if these
    are bad, they can cause fuel to burn in the wrong `pattern' where
    more oil goes to one spot than another.  If this happens, you end
    up with residue on the end of the retention tip, or in the fire
    chamber.  If this is happening, I'd say that a burner replacement
    is in order.  
    
    
    With our furnace, we had all kinds of trouble, and could adjust
    the air, replace the nozzle and get things running for a couple
    of days, then the furnace would start smoking again.  We tried several
    things before having the burner replaced.  Since then, we've had
    absolutely no problems and the furnace hasn't even THOUGH about
    getting dirty inside.  The burner people never could figure out
    what was wrong with the old one, but there was SOMETHING wrong with
    it cause as soon as it was gone, the problems disappeared.
    
    
    -bill
    
    By the way, you CAN adjust the air/fire on your burner by yourself,
    but you've got to know what you're doing.  I'd suggest that you
    have someone that knows what they're doing do the adjustments, as
    you can cause some real problems if you don't do it right.
    
    

    		-< gas furnance question >-
    
    Hello,
    
    The house I am in the process of buying has a gas furnance that
    is between 10 and 20 years old.  During a house inspection the
    inspector said that the air exchanger in the furnance could have
    holes leading to the possibilty of gas exhausts getting circulated
    through out the house.
    
    Does anyone have experience with this problem?  Would it be possible
    to get a best guess cost estimate?  Should the furnance be replaced?
    
    Any information or pointers to other notes would be greatly
    appreciated.
    
    Thanks in advance!
    
    -Tim

    The inspection said "could have holes" do you have any reason to
    believe that there really are any? Is there rust and corrosion that
    leads you to believe this? If there really is a reason to believe
    that the furnace is at the end of its useful life get an estimate
    on a furnace replacement and work this into the negotiations for
    the house.  

    Replacing a heat exchanger is a very labor intensive operation.
    Replacing the furnace would be a better alternative, there are
    more efficient gas furnaces available today and in the long run
    it will save you money in gas bills and repair costs.
    
    Nick
    

    I had the same problem when I had my furnace inspected last year.
    The gas company technician said that the exchanger couldn't be replaced
    and the furnace would have to be replaced.  Actually he said that
    it would cost just about as much to replace the exchanger as the
    furnace if we could even find one.  This was confirmed by several
    heating contractors that I called at the time so we replaced the
    furnace.  

    	Are you sure there are holes in the heat exchanger?  You can
    tell for sure very easily by unscrewing the access panel.  If there
    are holes then maybe you can make a deal on the cost of the house
    since it needs a new furnace.  If there aren't holes yet, with a
    furnace that old I wouldn't expect to get much more use out of it.    
    
    George

      If you confirm that this is a problem, don't live with it.  Exaust
      gas in the house means carbon monoxied  --  read  "poison  in  the
      air". 
      
      It sounds like the exchanger is at the point where it is in danger
      of going bad at any time.  It would seem to make sense to  replace
      it  now,  on  your  schedule,  rather  than  having  it  go bad in
      mid-winter. 

    I had a house with FWA and when the gas company person came in to
    do a routine cleaning, he found a small hole. In Mass., the gas
    company has the power of law to shut down the heating plant until
    it is fixed because of the danger of carbon monoxide poisoning.
    
    Our Armstrong heat exchange, although only in year 12 of a 20 year
    warrantee needed to be replaced but the model was  out of manufacture,
    therefore a new one was needed.
    
    The cause of the hole was an improperly located humidifier which
    condensed and dripped on to the exchange and over time corroded
    a hole. 
    
    When you get a new furnace and if you plan a humidifier at the same
    time, place the humidifier in the return line, not the feed (where
    it can drip).
    
    Negotiate about $2K off the house price; you'll need it all.

    Thanks for all the input, its a big help!
    
    We do have a signed P&S and we did stipulate that the house must
    pass a heating plant inspection as a condition of the p&s.  The
    realtor (who up until now has been honest) spoke of getting the
    local gas service to inspect the furnance.  Should I ask for a
    written copy of there report if they do?
    
    Thanks again.
    
    

    Aside from the afore mentioned carbon monoxide problem, there is
    at least another issue... fire.
    
    My heat exchanger rusted out after ~20 years, without me realizing
    it. As a result, when the thermostat ignited the furnace all would
    go well until the blower started. Then the blower would cause
    turbulance in the fire box often blowing flames OUT THE SIDE!!
    
    Luckily (?) this action would often cause the pilot to go out
    and the furnace would shut down completely leading me to realize
    I had a problem.
    
    Cost $1300 to replace the whole she-bang. FHA, gas. 1985.
    
    Edd
    
     

    
    I had the same problem last year where the system came on but within
    5 or 10 seconds there was a rumbling from down in the basement.
    
    My oil company came out and tested my furance and replaced the
    transformer.  The problem went away for about 2 days, then was back.
    
    After a second call to the oil company the serviceman discovered
    that the insulators that hold the electrodes going fom the transformer
    to the area of the nozzle had hair-line cracks in them which had
    filled with soot and carbon.
    
    These cracks acted like a short circuit, same as a crack in the
    distributor cap for your car, and reduced the efficiency of the
    transformer enough not to be able to provide adequate voltage to
    ignite the oil when the system first came on, thus the chamber filled
    with oil for a short period of time and was then ignited when the
    transformer could supply the required voltage causing the rumbling.
    
    Don't just think of the transformer being bad, look at all the parts
    that make up the ignition system..
    
    

Although I'm not installing a furnace yet,(but intend to in the future) 
I am considering installing the ductwork for a forced hot air system in my 
electrically heated house: a) for better heat circulation of my heat that is
currently generated by my wood stove in the basement, and b) because I 
am eventually intending to install(have installed) a FHA furnace.  I thought
I could install the duct work and use is now, though.  I have several 
questions(I haven't contacted any professionals, "yet")

	o Is this an easy installation(my house is a small ranch)?
	o How much $$ is ductwork per foot/yard/whatever?
	o how many returns/ducts should I use in each room?  Is there
          a formula for room size to # of ducts?
	o What size ductwork should be used?
	o What kind of ductwork is best? Metal, plastic, etc
	o Are there any good publications regarding FHA installation?


I currently have electric heat, and the Realtors that I have talked to 
seem to think that converting to oil/gas is a reasonable "investment" 
considering I'll be in the house for a while and can enjoy the comfort.

Thanks for any help!

Brian Jorgensen
                                 

	o How much $$ is ductwork per foot/yard/whatever?
          > if you have a basement under you both the returns and
            the supplys can be on the floor. It is better to have
            the return in the ceiling or near the top of the wall, but
            you can get away with putting both on the floor. In the new
            houses in my area they are putting in on the floor. Its more
            work to run it up the walls. 10"  x 8" x 10' snap lock from
            supply house was $13.00 a section, round pipe is cheaper.
      	o how many returns/ducts should I use in each room?  Is there
          a formula for room size to # of ducts?
          > Yep there's a formula for it. I haven't done FHA ductwork
            but I have done Air Conditioning Duct work in my house, and
            there is a formula for that. The A/C duct work is sized larger
            to carry the cooler heavier air where the opposite is true for
            FHA. I sized my own duct work then took it to a duct supply
            house and had them check it. But they will also help you
            do it.				
	o What size ductwork should be used?
          > this isn't an easy question to answer, you have to get all the 
            dimensions in your house, draw them on some paper, runs a few
            copies on the copier and then figure out where you would like 
            the return and supplys to be. Then calculate the returns and supplys.
            Also figure out where the Air Handler will be placed, and also
            calculate how big it should be.
	o What kind of ductwork is best? Metal, plastic, etc
          > All the FHA duct work I have seen in my area is all metal.	
	o Are there any good publications regarding FHA installation?
	  > if you want to get into the basic as well as technical aspects 
            of heating or cooling :
                 The Audel Library ,by Macmillian Publishing Co
                 Heating, Ventilating and Air Conditioning Library
                   ( I have only vols 2 & 3 )
                You can call toll free and ask for a list of books
                          1-800-257-5755 or order any of the books too.

I currently have electric heat, and the Realtors that I have talked to 
seem to think that converting to oil/gas is a reasonable "investment" 
considering I'll be in the house for a while and can enjoy the comfort.
  > Smart broker electric houses always sell cheaper, my last house
    was electric and I converted it to FHW baseboard.

  A few other hints:

       Call a few people for estimates they may or may not supply
      a diagram of all the duct work in their estimate. When I did this
      for my A/C none of them would supply it the estimate always
      says all duct work is covered regardless. I found that a lot of
      the A/C, FHA guys take the house dimensions to the supply house
      who does the calculations for them. 

       Do you think you might put in A/C someday, 
      include that as a selling point "Ready for A/C", and size the duct work
      to hold both. It won't cost much more.	
	

Thanks for your reply... very informative!  It sounds like you did the
duct work yourself.  Is that correct??  How difficult was it?
Any special tools? 

I plane to draw a diagram of my house before the weekend and take it to a 
supply house.  Did you shop around at all for your materials?  Can 
you suggest a good supply house in the greater Worcester/495 area? 
(I live in Bolton).

Yes, I would very like to make the provisions for central air.  Thanks
for the tip!

/Brian

    It isn't very difficult to do ! The returns and the supplys are
    the easy part. Cutting holes to put in the registers is what will
    take the most of your time, and then putting them in. I did all
    that while the house was being built so I didn't have to deal with
    the furniture, or carpets etc. 
    
        Tools I used to put in my duct work:
    
          - A sabre-saw with a sheet metal blade for cutting holes
            or sections to length.
          - A hex screw driver for driving sheet metal screws with my
            drill.
          - A pair of sheet metal snips
          - For insulation in A/C work a heavy duty stapler made by
            ARROW for use with 1/4" heavy duty staples P-19 I think.
          - a level
    
    Where are the supply houses ?
    
          _ there are three that I delt with I don't have telephone
            numbers handy. 
    
            The first I dealt with was :
         
               M.A. Peacard in Boston, they supply the downtown boston
              area and the people in the office were very helpful, but
              I didn't buy any materials here because If I needed more
              supplys I wasn't to keen on going into Boston all the
              time to get them (long drive, too much traffic)
    
            The second is S.G. Torrice in Woburn near the Woburn Mall,
            I believe Everberg St. I ordered mostly all my materials
            there and any custom work such as Plenums. Their service
            is great but they don't always have the stock.
    
            The third place that I did business at was great for supplies
            but lacked in service (you really had to know what you wanted
            because if you weren't in the trades they had to be pushed
            to get an answer) This place is called Air Supply in Burlington
            Take a left or right at Frud Rukers of rte 3A its up on
            the left. 
        
            Prices between all places were with a few cents, I saw trucks
            from all over MA at Air Supply. Bring your check book or
            cash , they don't take American Express or anything else,
            and use your last name as the contracting outfit.
    
   Go For It !!
     
            
     

    I recently put new ceramic tile in my bathroom.  One thing I have
    left to do to finish the room is to replace the heat register/diffuser.
    My problem is that I would like to replace it with a cast/wrought
    iron one.  I have seen them advertised in magazines as well as in
    a local hardware store in the past.  Of course, now that I want
    one I can't even find the ad anymore.  The opening is 2" by 12"
    and is right up against the wall.  So ... I am looking for one that
    would attach to the wall and not set into the floor.  It can be
    little larger than the opening.  Does anyone know where I can find
    one of these?
    
    Joyce
    
    Oh yeah ... I live in Townsend and work in Chelmsford (MA) So anything
    within commuting distance of those areas would be great.  Or, mail
    order would be just fine.
    
    In advance ... Thanks!
    

    I recently installed an inwall steam radiator, its designed to fit
    between studs... (18H*4Deep*12W).. its cast iron, grey color, and
    throws good heat. Although it sounds like you have an indent, not
    a full hole in your wall, this unit looks fine from all angles
    so it could poke out a bit from inside the wall.
    I picked mine up at the local plumbing supply house (the kind plumbers
    go to) and it cost $70 new. any such store should be able to point
    you in the right direction.. I looked in the hardware stores,
    but they don't have any steam stuff.
    Also, Check where your steam input is for the existing radiator
    you have.. My unit was fed from the center bottom, not the side
    like most old radiators ie:
    -------
    |     |
    |     |
    |     |
    |--|--|-<not here
       |
       ^here
                     
    so make sure you can plumb it before you buy it.
    

    If you are looking for a register for a Forced Hot Air system, then
    I suggest Reggio Registers in Ayer, Mass. I'm sure they're in the
    book. BTW, I went to school with the Reggio family but haven't visited
    their store in Ayer.
    
    Regards, Jim Frazer.

      Another place you can call is Braun's Fireside Emporium in 
    Leominster.  Last time I was there he had cast iron and brass
    registers.  
      The size may be a problem, but he's been pretty good about special
    orders and helping to locate things for me.
    
    Steve
    

    Thanks for your replies.  My heating system is a FHA Gas system.
     The opening is in the floor, not in the wall.  But, the register
    needs to attach to the wall.  The register does not need to produce
    heat, just cover the opening.
    
    As for the two places mentioned, I will check with Reggio Registers
    first.  This is the place I saw advertised in a magazine several
    years ago but couldn't remember the name of it.  Do you know where
    they are located in Ayer?  I have also heard a lot of good things
    about Braun's Fireside Emporium Steve ... When we start on our family
    room, I will definitely check them out for Woodstoves!
    
    Thank you everyone for your quick response!
    
    Joyce
    

    Our new FHA system creates an "oily" kind of smell from the ductwork
    just after the furnace starts and before the blower fan comes on.
    We had the heating contractor come out and make some adjustments,
    but the smell persists.
    
    He said the furnace wasn't running efficiently.  Initially it was
    installed and tested out during the real hot spell last August.
    We really didn't have much cause to run it much prior to Nov/Dec.
    
    Once the furnace/blower has been running a while, the smell goes
    away.
    
    Anyone have similar problems?  Any suggestions on fixes or is this
    normal? 
    
    Thanx for any/all replies.
    
    	Ted

>< Note 47.12 by DASXPS::LEVESQUE "The hardest thing to give is in." >
>                               -< "funny" smell >-

	What you're experiencing is pretty common with FHA.  I believe what
 is happening is when the furnace initially ignites, and the chimney is COLD,
 the exhaust gases will "kick-back" into the chamber and drift into the duct
 system.  This only happens until the chimney warms and a draft is established.
 The same thing occurs with any system (FHW, Steam) but it's more noticable
 with FHA because the fumes have a more direct access to the living space via
 the ducts.  The colder the weather, the worse it is because it takes more
 time and "effort" for the exhaust to move that big column of cold air out
 of the chimney.

							--Mike

    I just had a new FHA furnace installed and when it comes on smoke
    comes out of it.  The guy who installed it said that this is because
    the furnace is new and after it runs a couple of times this won't
    happen anymore.  Is this guy lying or what?  The smoke doesn't smell
    like gas or anything, it is more like a wood burning smell, although
    there isn't any wood in there.  I am a little concerned after reading
    a few replies back, in that this is a Burnham furnace, and it is
    vented out of a chimney running through the center of the house.
    The previous furnace was one of those old cast iron jobs.  Is this
    a sign that the ventilation is inadequate or that the furnace was
    improperly installed or is there any truth to what the guy told
    me?
    	Linda

    
    Linda,
          When I installed my new furnace I had the same problem. After
    a few uses it disappeared. I also experienced this ( real bad )
    on a heater/furnace on my Camper trailer when it was new. Same thing,
    It disappeared after a few uses. I don't think you have a problem
    but keep an eye on it...
                                          Bill

    Thanks Bill for your quick response.  I will let it run some this
    weekend while I am around to monitor it.  (and before the furnace
    guy has a chance to leave the country!)
    	Linda

    This is all the paint and "stuff" applied to the furnance during
    making of the furnance.  It will take a while for this stuff to
    burn off.  

    Also note that FHA furnaces that have not been run for a while (like
    all Summer) will give off a slight burning smell for a bit.  Don't
    know the exact cause but it's probably dust and other accumulated
    crud burning away.

  Can anyone recommend a supplier of ductwork of unusual shapes and
  sizes? I need some 90-degree bends for 8x6.5" duct for a range hood
  (both kinds of bend), and I'm hoping to avoid custom fabrication if
  possible. Most of the home-improvement centers don't carry much in
  this size. I also called the people listed in the Yellow Pages in my
  area, and didn't get much help. Thanks very much for any info.

    
    I know it's a long drive from Nashua but Air Conditioning Supply on
    Piedmont St. in Worcester should have everything you need. They are
    very helpful and have no problem dealing with homeowners. There must
    be someplace closer to you, though.
    
    CdH
    

  Thanks for the recommendation. I don't mind going to Worcester too
  much, since it's convenient on a Spag's run. However I just called
  them and they don't carry 8x6.5 and said I'd probably have to get it
  custom-made. I'll report back here if I locate anyone who stocks this
  size. It's for a range hood, believe it or not -- should this
  discussion be moved to that topic?

    
    
    Try Air Purchases in Burlington MA., or  S.G. Torrice in Woburn
    Ma. 
    
      If neither one of thes guys have that size you probably find it
    anywhere else either. 
    
     Most of these places should have standard ducting for range hoods.
    Is your range hood non standard or very old ?
    Can you maybe use standard sizes that they offer ?
    
    Or maybe are you extending or moving a duct that you need to match
    ?
    
    
    

  Thanks. I tried both places -- no luck. It will have to be custom
  fabricated. I got one estimate of $50 per elbow so far, in case
  anyone's interested. This is for 24 gauge galvanized steel (standard
  for residential use -- 16 ga is required for commercial, according to
  several of the shops I talked to). The hood is apparently non-standard
  (it's brand new). The installation instructions which came with it
  showed pictures of "typical ductwork available at any supplier of
  sheet metal products". Ha. Maybe they're typical in Mississippi where
  the hood is manufactured, but not in Mass. I have one last option:
  call the manufacturer and ask for the name of a supplier. But I need
  it in a week or two, so I think I'll just get it made locally.

  Thanks to all those who answered. Just from the telephone
  conversations I had with these people, they seem like folks you'd want
  to do business with.

>  Thanks. I tried both places -- no luck. It will have to be custom
>  fabricated. I got one estimate of $50 per elbow so far, in case

Why not have just ONE custom transition fitting made that will convert
your non-standard duct to a more readily available standard pieces.
Sommerville lumber has a decent selection of FHA ducts, elbows, and
transition fittings. 

Charly

In fact, that's just what I'm having done.

    
    
    BE sure you call that range hood supplier and put them on the spot
    let them know what you went through looking for duct work. And then
    ask them where they would recommend the would get it. It might be
    possible that they can direct you to a supply house that will for
    a charge ship you what you need at a cost lower than being 
    customized. In any event don't let the manufacturer off th hook.
    
    
    

    I have forced hot air fired by oil in my house. Part of the cellar
    is finished, heat included. We had to take down the sheetrock because
    the previous owners let it get all moldy. The walls are now sheetrocked
    again. I just noticed that the sheetrocker covered up the cold air
    return with sheetrock. How important is that return? The room is
    fairly large, it has two grates in the ceiling where I assume the hot
    air comes from (we haven't tested the heat in that room), and one
    larger grate close to the floor (that I assume is the cold air return)
    that is now covered up.
    
    Linda
    

Let's assume the the original installer did his homework and a good job.
The system needs to be in balance, volume of air out = volume of air in....
that should have idealy been the case to begin with.   This is a real 
world and we don't always meet ideal goals.  Secondly, having a return
in the same air helps circulate the warm air to give you a more unified
overall room temperature, fewer if any cold/hot spots, thereby fewer
apparent drafts.  IMHO go for it.  It's relatively easy to cut sheet rock
with a keyhole saw, and it doesn't have to be a saw specifically made for
sheet rock.

    One other thing to consider.  Hot air rises and cold air falls.  Would
    this mean that the heating ducts would be on the floor level so that
    the heat would filter up to the ceiling?  If so, then it would seem
    that your heat duct is covered, not your cold air return duct.  I could
    be wrong, but this is how I would think it would be set up.
    
    Ed..
    

    I'm finishing my basement and have a problem!!! I have a heating
    vent that runs horizontally across the ceiling.  I've decide to
    hang my suspended ceiling about half way down the vent leaving the
    bottom portion exposed bu no matter what I do to paint it it keeps
    bubbling up!! I've sanded the areas, wire brushed them, steel wooled
    them and cleaned the area with TLP a heaving duty cleaner I got
    from grossmans... my last attempt to patch up the areas that are
    taking to Rustoleum White was to paint the areas with STAIN KILL.
    This seemed to work a little but didn't do the job.  Most of the
    duct came out great with just two coats od spray rustoleum but a
    few areas are really messing up the appearance of the rest... Can
    anyone help me out??? I've also primed the areas with metal primer...
    still bubbles up in some sections.... If nothing works, can I put
    contact paper or something on it??? will the warmth of the vent
    bother anything???? thanks for any help!!!!

    One question, might there be VERY small pin sized holes (pits) in
    the sheet metal which would allow air to get under paint before
    fully dry.
    
    I had a similar problem when I did my basement. It turned out that
    in the problem area, there were in fact two small pin sized holes
    caused from oxidation(sp?).
    
    I found it purely by accident, when I attempted to clean the metal
    with full strength pine sole. The soap bubbled (when the heat came
    on) around that area.
    
    Get the magnifying glass out, you'll need it for this.!

    
    Have you tried using a metal primer on it before you paint it?
    
    Chuck
    

    Hi,
         If the sheet-metal duct is the galvanized type, you will have
    to treat it with something before you paint it, some type of acid
    if I remember right, maybe vinegar will do it. Try asking a commercial
    paint distributor, such as a autobody supply store. I know that
    some of the mid 70's Ford products had galvanized outer body parts.
    
    Good luck!
    

    
    Turpentine works. I know, when I was a grunt for a construction co.,
    I wiped down hundreds of feet of the stuff before painting. 
    
    Be sure to wear rubber gloves, and just wipe it with a rag as if you
    were cleaning it. 

    Several years ago, they painted all of the galvanized ductwork
    here in Westfield.  It is now all peeling and falling off in
    big chunks.
    
    mike
    

     
     I had great experience with a product called THURMALOX STOVE PAINT
    I've used it on an old cast iron stove that I acquired which made
    it look new. I also used it on the the stove pipe that was attached
    to the stove, lighlty sanded and cleaned. I've also used it on a
    new woodstove that I bought that was stove black, with the paint
    we changed it to warm brown to match our decor. It comes in many
    colors, and in the case of a wood stove it hardens with the next
    fire in the box. In any event I check the product label last night
    and here's what is covers :
    
      " for painting touching up woodstoves, stovepipes, fireplace hoods,
      screens, and accessories, grates, barbeque qrills, heaters, furnaces,
      engines, manifolds, mufflers "
    
      " Won't blister, peel, or dicolor, with cherry red heat to 1200f"
    
       The product is made by :
    
             The Dampney Co.
             85 Paris Street
             Everett, Mass. 02149
    
       They mail out, they also will mail out a color chart
    
    
       As it says above it also works great on gas Grills, make them
    look new, just clean all the grease off first and paint.
    
      Hopes this helps some.
    
    
    

    They also sell engine paint in automotive stores. I used it on 
    motorcycle engines. Looks good and never peeled. 
    
    Steve

    thank you very much!!!! I'll check into it.....
    

    Galvanized duct work isn't MEANT to be painted -- my Dad was in
    the biz.  Although you can treat the metal, I don't think you'll
    ever be happy with it.
    
    The only solution that suits me, aesthetically, is a lot more work
    but looks the best.  Build a cover.  Since you have suspended ceilings,
    you could build the cover of light plywood or something and paint
    it with laytex to match your ceiling tiles.  Contact paper might
    stick, but it can bubble too and looks REALLY tacky when it does.
    Also, if the heat is sufficient it scorches.
    
    In those places (like the basement) where hiding the ducts was
    impossible, we just lived with the raw metal.  I sort of like the
    appearance, myself!  
    
    Good luck!
    
    (Oh, do check with paint dealers and/or sheet metal contractors
    -- my perception of the situation is relatively dated, and they
    might have new products now.)
    
    Sherry

    
      Rub the sheet metal down with vinegar. wait 24 hours and paint
    away. It works great with oil based or latex paint. The paint will
    not peel or bubble. I've done it on many galvanized air ducts and
    cabinets over the past 20 years.
                                                 Bill

    Please, I have read through all the notes on walls and all the notes on
    hot water heating systems and couldn't find anything about my problem.
    I am aware that I might have overlooked something but I don't believe
    so.
    
    Situation:  We just converted our heating system from electric to FHW.
    The problem is that where the pipe goes through one of the interior
    walls I am getting a "clicking" sound.  Sounds like dripping water but
    it isn't.  It is caused by the air inside the wall expanding and
    pushing on the sheetrock causing it to slowly vibrate.  I can repeat
    the sound if I push on the sheetrock just above where the pipe goes
    through the wall.  What's the best way to fix this???  More sheetrock
    screws???  Insulation???  What??
    	Thanks for your help.
    Ric

Ric

	I have lived in many places with FHW heat and now own a house with FHW
heat.  There is clicking every now and then when the metal pipes expand and
contract in every place I lived.  

Perhaps the hot water pipe which is going through your wall may be rubbing? or
whatever agains the sheetrock or stud when the hot water expands the copper
pipe as opposed to the air in the wall getting hot.  

If its just the pipes expanding this is probably normal.  I personally do not
know of a way to stop the clicking if its just the pipes I would guess that
there is no way to do it. If its real loud and irritating then perhaps you
should inform the installers. 

If it is rubbing or pushing on the sheet rock, perhaps you can carefully file a
slightly bigger opening in the sheetrock where the pipes enter the the wall.


Good luck in fixing your problem,
Chris

    Assuming the piping is going through the wall from on room to the other
    I would concur with .1, make the holes just slightly larger to allow
    some breathing and prevent heat buildup. If that does not solve the
    problem, try putting a larger sleeve over the FHW pipe that goes 
    through the wall and snug the sleeve to the edges of the hole to block
    any heat from getting in between the walls. You can check this out by
    using the cardboard core from a roll of paper towels, or toilet paper,
    and put it in place for a few weeks. If it works, make a more perman-
    ent fix by using a metal sleeve.
    
    If the plumber has run the FHW pipe along, and inside, the length of
    the wall, call him back and beat him about the head, or otherwise
    vent the wall above the FHW pipe. In most homes less than say 20 years 
    old there will be firestops between the wall studs and venting cannot 
    be done from the top of the wall; you will have to find these firestops 
    (2x4 cross-pieces) and vent just below them.

      Have recently completed a kitchen renovation, and had the VERY
    same problem, (clicking / dripping, etc).
        The sub-flooring I put down was drilled too small for the sink
    drain, and caused the same "noise".  Removed the pipe, enlarged
    the hole a bit, and no more noise.
                    Jim

    Thanks for the ideas.  Now, where did I put that saw....time for a 
    little "wall surgery"!!!!  Will let you know how it works.
    Ric

    I have a Gas FHA high-efficiency model( Duomatic - Olson brand)
    heating system in my home.

    The problem I'm having is that the water collection system seems
    to be backing up somewhere and overflowing inside the funace,
    eventually getting to the floor.  Has anyone had this problem with
    water condensing heating systems?  Any help would be appreciated.
    
    I've checked the 1111 listing and did not find any reference to
    this kind of problem.
    
    Chris
    

    This may be your problem, or be totally irrelevant;  you should check
    the documentation on your system.
    
    I was perusing some literature on *humidifiers*, that indicated that
    (for this manufacturer's kind, at least) they have an outlet that lets
    water out of the system.  One of the reasons why the more expensive
    varieties were more expensive is that they have outlets which can be
    plumbed into the drain used by central air conditioning apparatus;
    the cheaper model, if I remember correctly, had a drip pan or some such
    thing that required periodic monitoring.
    
    At this time of year, you probably aren't running a *dehumidifier* (not
    if you live in New England, anyway);  one of those doing the entire
    house would have a serious need for a plumbed drain, I would think.
    
    Dick

    This type of heater which I have, has various pipes running from
    the heat transfer box down to other various pipes and then is pumped
    out of my basement by a pump.  It is in effect a dehumidifier. 
    
    I suspect not many people have such systems.  I will probably try
    tinkering with it myself this weekend, and then end up calling the
    plumbing guy who installed it.
    
    Chris

    
    
    	It de-humidifies the flue gasses.  It sounds like one of the more
    efficient models being offered.  They glean so much heat from the
    furnace, that the water vapor(that is a by product of combustion)
    which in less efficient models goes up the flue, is condenced.
    	This "water" is VERY acidic, and will cause harm to any
    (non-stainless) steel surfaces that it contacts.  Call the furnace
    guy to have it checked out.  You could try checking the overflow
    line to be sure that it's not kinked/clogged.  In any rate, you should
    get it checked a.s.a.p
    
    		CP
    

    My Duomatic Olsen FHA (Oil) furnace sometimes overflows condensate during 
    the air conditioning season.  The pipe to the condensate pump gets clogged.
    
    Annoying.
    
    __Rich

    I didn't realize that it was that acidic, I've called the guy, but
    thanks for the warning.  
    
    BTW.  The furnace has rating of about 97%.  I have the same gas
    bill for my 3 bed room garrison, as I did for my 2 bed room, interior
    townhouse.  The flue gasses are cool enough that they are pumped
    out of the system via a PVC pipe.  My house has no chiminey or roof
    vent.
    
    Chris,  I'll report back on the needed repairs and cost when they
    happen.

    To heat and cool a large one room addition on my house I plan
    to exit off of existing main heat/AC trunk with another
    trunk line to addition and then run my ducts off of that
    to various locations around the room.
    
    I know my system has extra capacity to handle this but
    how do you determine size of trunk line, size of duct lines
    and how many for the room.   

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Paul [Moderator]

    Seems like a reasonable note...
    
    My heat is FHA by propane. For years, when I first fire the furnace up
    in the fall, the first blast of air out the registers was  musty
    smelling. Seemed reasonable....
    
    I notice that if my furnace sits idle for even a day, the first
    blast of air is musty smelling. Subsequent cycles smell OK. The odor
    drifts out of the registers before the blower kicks in, and is gone
    within seconds of the blower starting...
    
    The furnace is fairly new, about 6 years old. The filter is changed
    regularly.
    
    I should add that this isn't something that started recently. It's done
    this for a couple years, which tends to elliminate exhaust being vented
    into the house. (Chances are I wouldn't be typing this if that was the
    case!)
    
    My father, whom I bought the house (with a different furnace) from,
    knew exactly what smell I was talking about, as the old furnace would
    do the same thing at the beginning of the season...
    
    It smells 'musty' or even 'dusty' or stale. The cellar does tend to be
    a bit damp, but nothing all that far out of the ordinary.
    
    Would cleaning the duct work out possibly be of any value? I've never
    done that. Any other suggestions?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Edd

    Here is my problem:  We are adding a second story to our tiny (28x32)
    house.  The house currently has FHA that has been very comfortable,
    though I believe it is small (85000 BTUs? I am not sure).  Because
    of the difficult with heating the upstairs, we put in extra insulation
    (6" in walls; 8" in ceilings).  There are also four big windows
    on the south-south-east side, and a central and open stairway to
    allow heat to rise.  But we think we should also extend the
    ducting to the second floor.  And here are the constraints;
              
    
    THe furnace has a small box from which the heat ducks come.  The
    heat ducts are generally the small ones (4"?).  Can we make a bigger
    box?  (It cannot be higher - goes to the ceiling already)
    
    I think we can tuck ducts into closets, cupboards, etc, through
    the first floor but they will not be placed right on the second
    floor - which is a garison.  Can you run the ducks horizontally
    for a few feet?  Where we need to cross joists, can we do that by
    notching the joists?
    
    If we can't duct horizontally or notch any joists, what about floor
    vents?  Are these flush with the floor or do they pose a tripping
    hazard?
    
    How important is the air return?  what is the appropriate ratio
    of number and size of return ducts to supply ducts?  On the exitsing
    house there are fewer returns than supplies, but they are bigger.
    Would the first floor return ducks suffice for the whole house?
    
    What about a discreetly placed floor vent to allow heat to rise into 
    the bathroom?  Would this create problems with steam venting downstairs
    from showers etc?
    
    We have a big wood stove in the breezeway, that brings the breezeway
    up to tropical temperatures but does little for the rest of the
    house.  Is it possible to shuttle the heat from that stove down
    about 6 feet and across about 8 feet to furnace to link into the
    furnace duct system?  If so, are there battery/gas powered fans
    to help heat when our power goes out?
    
    Any ideas?                                           
    
    Thanks,
    Sheila
    
                                                      

    So many questions! ;^)
    
    Yes duct work can be run horizonitally.  We live in a ranch and ALL
    ducts are horizontal, almost no vertical.
    
    Yes, you can change the box at the end of the furnance to allow you
    addtional runs.
    
    No, you should not notch the joists if possible.  Maybe small notches,
    not to exceed 2 inches deep.  The joists hold up important things like
    ceilings and floors and if you cut them, these things may collapse on
    you.
    
    Yes, you need returns if you can on the second floor.  These take away
    the cool air and help to recirculate that air in to the furnace. 
    Otherwise you keep "stuffing" more hot air in the rooms and don't give 
    the existing air anyplace to go.
    

Perhaps it might be more economical to add a second furnace and
associated duct work so that you have a second heated zone so
that your upstairs rooms are not overheated. I noticed that
you're adding extra windows to help capture the sun's energy in
heat.

The alternative is to upgrade the exsisting furnace, then add the
ductwork to the second story. I also recommend that in the second
story, two return air ducts be used, a high, ceiling return duct
for summer air return and a low one for winter air return. In the
summer, the hot air rises to the ceiling so if you add A/C or
just turn on the fan to circulate the air, the hot air is drawn
into the furnace and added to the cooler air from the basement or
lower level. The lower air return is for winter so that you can
pull the cold air down to the furnace to heat.

cal

Haveing added a second floor, I tend to disagree with some of the others.

You do not need return ducts on the second floor since cool air falls, but for
the system to be most efficient, the return duct on the first floor should be
at the foot of the stairs, and the doors in the upstairs rooms should be left 
open.

What I have is 150K BTU FHA Propane gas heating the first floor, two big returns
(the returns = the size of the plentum opening is sq inches)  and 4 hot air 
registers. The first floor is over 1k sq ft of heated area. 

On the second floor approx 800 sq ft, is two bedrooms and a bath, the bath has
back up elec heat (used about 4 times a winter, but quite often in the spring
and fall to kill the chill) and the door is left open, there are two bed rooms,
which I leave the doors closed, one room is 14 x 16, and takes about 2-3 hrs to 
warm up, and the other is the master 16 x 26 with 20ft ceiling, this room takes
5-6 hrs to warm up, which is just right, go to bed cool, wake up warm.

Since heat rises, it's going to go up to the second floor, it is just a matter 
of how fast, and how warm do you want it, if in doubt, add elec heat for back up, 
but I think you will find that you won't use it.

Good luck
Les

    
    Well this is sort of related!  I want to make something out of ducting. 
    Someone at work told me to use vinegar first, if I want to paint the
    duct-work, but what I was really wondering is, is there some (noxious)
    chemical out there that will produce a really neat-looking effect when 
    applied to the galvanized steel?
    
    If so, what is it and what is the effect?  (How dangerous is it, what
    precautions should I take, etc.)
    
    CQ

Oh yes, get some muriatic acid from your local hardware store and pour 
some of that on the metal.  It will foam and give off noxious fumes and
take the finish right off the metal, leaving it a different color.  Is
muriatic acid, a dilute hydrocloric acid?  If it isn't I'm sure somebody 
will jump all over this note to correct me.  Let me save at least four 
other replies by stating you should wear rubber gloves, protective or 
at least dispensible clothing and work in a well ventilated area, 
preferably outside.  The other standards precautions of using acid also
apply, don't drink it, pour water into it, pour it in your nose, or
work with it around small children, or any desirable mammals for that 
matter.  By the way, its also great stuff for removing cement from 
anything.  It foams greens and dissolves it.  

-Bob

    
    Wow, I think I'll stick with the vinegar and the paint.  I was hoping 
    for something a little less messy.  (I really used noxious half-jokingly,
    hoping against hope that something not-noxious would do the trick,
    even though I figured that wouldn't be the case.)
    
    However, I won't start my projecttill the weekend, so until then, I'm 
    still open to suggestions!
    
    CQ

Webster's Ninth New Collegiate says muriatic acid is hydrochloric acid.

    "Muriatic acid" is just another name for hydrochloric acid.  It is
    usually low-purity grade, not laboratory-grade.
    
    I don't know of any clever ways to treat galvanized metal to get
    interesting effects.  Zinc (what the galvanizing is) just looks
    like zinc. 
    Best bet is probably to paint it; vinegar will etch the surface
    enough so the paint will stick well.
    

    High-temperature black "stove paint" sticks to galvanized metal ducts
    OK - I decided several years ago to paint the woodstove's pipe to the
    same color as the stove, and it sticks fine (we don't actually USE the
    woodstove because Paul is so allergic to smoke: if we do use it, he
    gets too much smoke if he goes out the door nearest the chimney,
    depending on the wind direction.  I just wanted the pipe to look better;
    I didn't like the zinc color).  My neighbor painted his woodstove's
    outside "chimney" (galvanized metal; mine has a brick and stone
    chimney) with normal house paint to match his house, and that did not
    stick at all and is currently pretty messy-looking (I don't think the
    current renters of that house use the woodstove, either) -- that was
    latex exterior house paint (I helped him do the house), so don't try
    that!
    
    The previous owner covered since of the ceiling duct work in our house
    with some kind of contact-paper stuff that matches the wall paneling to
    make the ducts less obvious - this stuff sticks just fine also.  Of
    course, the ducts do not get very hot (especially compared to the
    woodstove's pipe into the chimney) in the basement, since we normally
    have the heat shut off down there.
    
    
    /Charlotte

    Hi,
    	I have a problem with the GAS-FHA system (Rheem brand).
    
    Problem 1: Blower motor is very noisy.
    
    	Yesterday I took apart the blower and motor. It is a Westinghouse
    1/4 HP directdrive(fan is mounted on the motor shaft) motor. After
    taking apart the motor I saw cracked bushings ??(It's a plastic round 
    piece inside bearings.) One is good so I assembeled it back without one
    plastic piece. There are two pieces on on each bearing.
    
    	This reduced the noise some what however I can see that I really
    want to replace that other plastic piece.
    
    Question: Where can I get this piece or do I have to get the whole new
    		motor ??
    
    BIGGER PROBLEM:
    	
    	I did the above work yesterday and today I have NO HEAT. Blower
    does run though burners are creating problems. Few months ago I added
    the digital thermostate(four stage setback) so I don't think the
    thermostat is a problem. The thermostate does show ON and the temp.
    reads 62. This turns on the blower motor and I can see the flames
    coming on in the burner however after a short while flames go off and
    blower continues.
    	I guess there is an internal thermostate that turns off the gas
    valve..
    
    	Any ideas ?? Anything I can check or adjust ??
    
    thank you in advance
    Robert

    I'd assume (usually a mistake), that the furnace has some way of
    detecting that once the gas valve has opened, the gas has ignited. When
    the heat exchanger gets hot enough, a sensor in the furnace then
    turns on the fan. When the  wall thermostat says "enough" the gas shuts
    off, but the fan may run and use residual heat in the exchanger till it
    cools off enough to shut the sensor off. How long does the gas stay on
    when it lights? If it runs for a while (my FHA system in Texas often
    has a comparitively short cycle), then perhaps the thermostat is
    telling it to shut off too early. As a test, you could put the heat way
    up ( say 80) to see if the gas stays on or its being shut off by some
    internal problem at the furnace.
    
    Eric
    

    .21
    	Thanks for the suggession. After I entered the note I read the
    notes 605 & 1637 which explains the blower motor control and burner
    control switch.
    
    	THis was an error on my part. Yesterday when I re-assembled the
    blower I put it backwards, thus no air in the furnace which caused
    the burner control switch to shut-off promptly. I was able to detect
    this after observing the switch in action as explained in 605. What was
    happening that wall thermostate was asking for more heat though
    internal thermostate was stopping the burner, except it kept the blower 
    going as heat was very high in the furnace.
    I re-did the blower and everything is fine now..
    
    However I still have question is there an easy way to get the plastic
    bushing in the bearing ?? If so where, I am in Nashua NH.
    
    thanks
    Robert
             

How hard is it to rewire a FHA blower so that you can use all three speeds?

According to the wiring diagram, my Trane FHA electric furnace (w/ heat pump) 
blower motor has three speeds (lo, med, high). As far as I can tell, it only
uses one of those speeds (high) when the furnace is running or if you manually
turn on the fan using the fan switch on the thermostat upstairs.

I'd like to be able to run the fan (alone) on low speed to pull heat out of the
basement that I'm generating via woodstove.

Can someone help me, an electrical motor novice, figure out how to DYI this
re-wiring project? The heating contractor I called said it would be $100 labor,
plus parts ... 

Brian

    Don't know how to rewire the motor but if you want to pull heat out of
    the basement you will need to add, if not already present, intake vents in 
    the basement.  Otherwise the fan will just circulate the ait from the
    upstairs.
    
    George

    
    	Did you say it was a heat pump? If it is it probably runs on
    the lowest or med low during the heating cycle and on high for the
    cooling cycle. Just turning the fan switch to on, the one that is
    on the thermostat may do it, it may already be wired for the same
    speed that is used for the heating cycle which may not be low enough
    for what you want to do.
    
    	If the above does not apply, you will need to add a relay with
    a 24volt coil and contacts rated for at least 10 amps 120volts,
    that has enough poles to break the other speeds and make the lowest
    speed on the fan motor. Then you wire a "manual overide" switch
    to the outside of burner that uses the control voltage available
    in the furnace (24volts) to pull in the relay and turn on the lowest
    fan speed. Keep in mind that this cuts out the highest fan speed
    and could cause the exchanging coil in the plenum to frost up
    during the cooling cycle if you forgot to turn the "manual" switch
    back to the normal position. 
    
    	The method I just described is the simplest one. I am sure there
    are other more complicated means of doing this but without having
    seen the wiring diagram for that particular unit I would only be
    guessing on the method. If you need more details contact me off
    line.
    
    Paul
                            

< Note 4054.0 by WYNTON::BMCWILLIAMS "Improvise if you have to ..." >
Brian,

You can rewire the blower to run on high by running a wire from
the high-speed tap to the relay that turns on the fan (manually).
Be sure to put a wire nut on the wire that is the slow speed tap.

calvin

    HELP!!!  I need some input REALLY FAST!!!
    
    The FHW radiant heat needs to be replaced in my slab ranch.  The
    decision to replace has been made.  It will be done within the next 60
    days.
    
    I prefer to go with FHA (for many of the reasons listed in 49.*),  but
    I need to feel comfortable with the answer to one simple question:
    
    Since it's a slab, the duct work must be run through the attic (...no
    basement).  This means that the registers will all be in the ceiling. 
    The contractor will have one large return register low in one wall near
    the center of the house.  Will the house be warm enough with the
    registers up high?
    
    Thanks
    
    David

    RE: FHA registers in ceiling
    
    Our split entry has FHA, and the finished basement (1/2 cement wall)
    has heat only in the ceiling and a cold air return in the middle
    of the room.  To put it bluntly - the room ain't anywhere near as
    warm as the rest of the house.  Now, it could be the fact that
    it's a basement - but it's fully insulated, etc.  The fact that
    you're putting it on a slab may show some similarities.  The problem
    with our setup is that the warm air really never makes it down to
    the ground except near the middle of the room (near the cold return).
    In the corners of the room, it's fairly chilly.
    
    If you really want FHA, I'd investigate the ability to drop perhaps
    some surface-run ducts down some walls and have the air exit
    near the bottom of the room.  Perhaps even removing some sheetrock 
    between 2 studs to run ductwork down may be an option.  But if you're
    in the northeast, I'd try to find a way to get heat near the bottom of
    the room.
    
    good luck,
    andy
    

    My inlaws HAD ducts in the ceiling of their slab house.  They ended up
    going to electric baseboard.  I guess from the warm ducts and the cold
    attic, condensation would build up on the outside of the ducts and
    completely soaked/ruined the ceiling sheetrock.  After seeing their 
    problems, I would never do it.
    
    Chris D.

When we moved into our house, only one upstairs room had heat.  After our house
fire, we added a dormer upstairs and put in real heat.  Our furnace is in the
basement and a big duct runs up to the attic where the hot air is distributed
to each of the three bedrooms and the bathroom from the ceiling.  There are no
cold air returns upstairs.

I have to partially shut all the registers upstairs or it gets too warm up
there.  I've not walked around with a thermometer, but the upstairs is
noticeably warmer than the downstairs (where the registers are in the floor,
and where the cold air returns are.

Of course, the ducting in the attic is insulated, but it lies on top of the
attic insulation.

re: .20 -- I don't understand where the condensation would come from.  The only
thing that should be cooling down (and therefore subject to condensation) would
be the air in the ducts.  But that air was originally room air, sucked up by the
cold air returns, heated, and sent out the hot air ducts.  If it didn't
condense at room temp. and didn't have water added to it (e.g., by a furnace
humidifier), why would it condense in the hot air duct?

								-- Chuck Newman

re  <<< Note 1578.20 by HYEND::C_DENOPOULOS "Men Are Pigs, And Proud Of It!" >>>

>    I guess from the warm ducts and the cold
>    attic, condensation would build up on the outside of the ducts and
>    completely soaked/ruined the ceiling sheetrock.  After seeing their 
>    problems, I would never do it.
    
       Don't tell me-----there was no insulation covering the ductwork, and the
       attic was not vented----right?

       Steve

My parent's house in Tucson is a ranch on a slab with combined
heating/cooling ducts.  The source ducts are high on the wall over the door
(the ducts were routed through the hallway; the rooms had cathedral
ceilings).  Each room had a cold air return that went through the slab.

Tucson is not known for its chilly winters, but I still found it too cold
at floor level.  My bedroom was an add-on that didn't have a cold air
return, and I had to supplement with an electric heater.

I guess I would say "it depends": If any family members have arthritis or
other cold-sensitive conditions, the floor will seem extremely cold,
especially compared to slab radiant heat.  On the other hand, you may find
that ceiling fans will distribute the warm air adequately (and you can use
the fans on those muggy summer days).  Run the fans in reverse (blowing
"up") on low speed.

    Thanks for all the QUICK responses!  You have all helped me make up my
    mind NOT to proceed with the FHA with the ductwork in the attic and
    registers in the ceiling.  The main reason for changing the heating
    system out is to get warmth back in the house !! :)
    
    Although the FHW presents the problem of baseboard running around the
    entire house, I like the idea of having three zones (as opposed to the
    one zone that FHA would allow), of getting uniform heat (which the
    prior replied indicated I might not get with FHA from the ceiling), and
    the fact that with FHW I will not need a separate hot water heater (at
    least not yet, anyway).
    
    Thanks again!
    
    David

    Re "one zone that FHA would allow":
    
    You CAN get multiple zones with FHA.  This is done via electro-
    mechanical dampers in the ductwork.  When a "zone" "calls for heat"
    the furnace starts, the appropriate damper is opened, and heat
    is sent only to the requesting zone.
    
    There was a short article about this in one of the Globe's handyman's
    columns this past weekend; you could send away for information on
    zone control systems for FHA.
    
    Just FYI.

re: .25 -- Must have been the same article that was in the Worcester Telegram &
Gazette.

Also, note that Jim Jackson's Tuscon home (.23) was on a slab (read: cold floor)
with cathedral ceilings.  That's very different from a second floor (read: warm
floor) with regular height ceilings -- what I have in my house and what I
suspect you have in yours.

Not trying to set your mind one way or another.  I personally *love* hanging out
over the FHA ducts in our first floor, but do what you feel best with.  I'm sure
either FHA or FHW would work fine.

								-- Chuck Newman

    My father in law has a ridgevent on his roof.  I tend to think now that
    maybe the condensation happens because instead of a normal furnace, he
    has a heat exchanger outside.  Maybe that has something to do with it.
    As far as the ductwork being insulated, I don't know, but knowing my
    F-i-l and his brother that did most of the work, I wouldn't be
    surprised if it wasn't insulated.
    
    Chris D.

Re: .26

In .18, David Abelow stated that he had a "slab ranch", i.e.  cold floors.
Also, "cathedral ceilings" on my parents' house is perhaps misleading: roofs
in Tucson are about 6 - 10% pitch (no snow load), so a cathedral ceiling is
8 feet at the outer wall, and 10 feet at the inner wall.  This is
essentially the same as a flat ceiling with a ceiling duct.

I think he's made the right decision to go with FHW.

It's great having related conversations all together in one place.  I forgot
that this conversation started with not .18, not .0 -- two different houses.

								-- Chuck Newman

    Getting back to a facet of the base note:
    
    How do you determine what effect one or more new ducts will have on the
    balancing of the system?  I'm looking at adding some ducts to heat
    portions of the cellar, and want to have some idea of what I'm doing
    before I start hacking things.
    
    Dick

  Has anyone used the new Fiberglass venting/ductwork in their homes?  I ve heard lots
about it, but no real practical experiences.  Some concerns I have about it are would the
ducts release shards of fiberglass over time?  Considering high temps from an errant furnace
could the ducts burn? dust buildup?  and so on...
Some practical applications for this would be: over range hood ( restaurant style with high
CFM change_); bath vents and finally regular ductwork.  I would like to consider this as it
is supposedly cheaper without any loss of heat , no drawbacks etc. Another consideration that
some people may have experienced ( especially those with newer, tighter houses) is the
way heat/cold tends to coagulate in high/low areas in winter/summer.  The optimum design
calls for delivery of a/c through high vents and delivery of heat through floor or low
registers.  Is there a way to do this while minimizing duct-runs? ( automatic ) what about
return vents in such a system.  Looking for a design/system that provides an optimum return.
( in various ways...;)
I d like some practical experiences - I ve spoken with several contractors, and of course all
you get is the general "Yeah I can do that - no problem" as long as they get the business. 
thanks for all replies.
Frank

My previous home had fiberglas ducts.  I never noticed any problem with
them, other than a tendency for the joints to come apart if not secured
tightly.

				Steve

>...tendency for the joints to come apart if not secured
>tightly.

   Ok. I'll bite.  how do you keep them secure? brackets?
I would guess that would rip the stuff; Crazy glue duct tape?
 It would be too bad if you were putting up pictures and a 
nail( or pix hanger ) ripped the duct...;-)
   Steve, if you did this yourself, what was the cost?

regards,
frank

Hi!

re .0:

I've been trying (and failing) to build a house for some time now, and the
choice between fiberglass or metal ductwork has been one of the issue I've
found hard to decide.  I did not get the "I'll do anything you want" from
the contractors I've talked to, some favor it, and others hate it.  
Quickly, this is what I've heard:

    Advantages:

	Much quieter.

	Less expensive.

	Self insulating.

    Disadvantages:

	Fiberglass emitted into home air?
	    One GC told me he had to replace all the ductwork in a home 
	    because the owner became allergic to the fiberglass.

	    A heating contractor told me if fibers are emitted it is due
	    to poor design and installation of the particular heating system.
	    He said that the fiberglass ducts are fine when properly installed.
	    He did confirm if the ducts are over pressured, the fiberglass will
	    erode.  He told me he saw one system where only the outer foil
	    was left.

	Ducts are fragile.
            I heard about attic ducts having to be replaced after being sat 
	    on and stepped on.

	Mold growth?
	    I asked a heating contractor that proposed metal ducts about
	    fiberglass ducts and he mumbled about there would be changes to 
	    them soon due to problems with mold growth.

        Cleaning?
            Some other notes in this conference talk about having your ducts
	    cleaned after a zillion years of dust have built up in them.
	    Seemed to me like it would be hard to drag any sort of brush
	    through these ducts to extract the dust without taking a chance
	    on ripping them up.  I asked a heating contractor about this and
	    he said they just spray disinfectant in the ducts when they get
	    dirty.

At this point I'd probably go with metal ducts.  What have other people
heard/experienced?

    Greg

    Re .0:
    
    Fiberglass is considered non-flammable so I wouldn't worry about
    the ducts burning up unless the furnace got so hot it started the
    rest of the house on fire.
    
    I wouldn't use the fiberglass ductwork for venting grease or moisture
    (in both cases the exhaust products would build up on the interior of
    the fiberglass ductwork; in the former case you'd have a ready recipe
    for a nasty fire - the grease could eventually catch fire).
    
    The fiberglass ductwork is rated at R4.3.  It is somewhat sturdy but
    will of course crush if you run into it or step on it.
    
    As for fibers being dislodged, that's interesting.  Our ductwork has
    what appears to be a "binder" mixed in with the fibers so it would
    seem not to be a problem.  (I had to cut into the ductwork to add a
    few tap-offs; the stuff was pretty stiff.)  Perhaps during the first
    few months any left-overs from manufacturing and installation would
    be dislodged.
    
    It is definitely quieter than metal ductwork.
    
    We have no complaints after a year's use.
    

  Thanks for the replies...  Has anyone done anything with HVAC design - 
ie. high/low registers, etc., as mentioned in the base note?  One comment
that I ve read over the weekend - the ridges in ducts impede airflow.  So do
elbows and turns.  At the risk of this becoming a rathole note, Elbows for range
ventilation( including downdrafts ) slow the effective airflow by 7CFM.  every
20' is another 6CFM "wasted".  I m certain the same principles would hold for 
FHA;  decreased temps would result at the register.  Taking this into account
a central location for the furnace would be ideal.  Barring this ( long stacks )
if its in the middle but towards the center there might be a noticable 
improvement in system performance. 

Re: .2

I didn't install the ducts - they were put in when the house was built in
1985.  The problem I had was where the duct had an elbow to go up to
a vent, and wasn't properly supported.  The connection between the two 
pieces came apart and started leaking air into the basement.  The joints
appeared to be sealed with something like duct tape, and that should work
quite well.  As long as the ducts are properly supported, and there isn't
any twisting pressure on joints, they should work fine.  They will lose
less energy than metal ducts and will be quieter.  They can also withstand
a small bit of crushing to fit in tight spaces.

			Steve

    Don't forget most air handler fans have at least 3 blowing speeds. I assume
    this is to help fit in different configurations, ie. size of duct,
    length of run etc., position of air handler within the duct
    configuration.  
    
    I like my fiberglass ducts, because I hooked up a woodburning furnace
    into the system and it was easy to "cut and splice" it into the 
    existing system. I also did an addition and again adding a main trunk
    line addition was easy, oh yeah, I also installed a humidifier, cutting 
    the duct was easy. When I cut into 5 year old fiber duct there was
    no trace of any mold, it was a little dusty.     
      

How about a semi-compromise?  Use the metal ducts for their advantages, and 
wrap the ducts with fiberglass insulation.  I realize this would be more 
expensive, but it seems you would get the best of both worlds.  How much more
expensive would it be?  I couldn't tell you.

Ed..

We did a DIY home heating system with this stuff. Worked out real well.
I still have the special tools required to form the ducts out of the
sheet ductboard which I might be able to part with...

We used an aluminum plenum chamber to start things off (too big to deal
with ductboard... just gave the dimensions and had someone else in a shop
do it), and aluminum for one large return duct. Everything else was
the fiberglass insulated ductboard. Joints were sealed with this iron-on
tape with blue dots. When enough heat was applied, the dots turned black.

Its been about 5 years now... no major problems with molds, dust or
fiberglass. Its basically a very responsive, silent heating system.

I helped my dad put in some fiberglass ductwork in his house about 20 years
ago.  I lived in one of the bedrooms served by the new duct for about 6
years, and never noticed any fiberglass or any other problems.  No problems
after 20 years.

It was a piece of cake to put in - a magic tool that cut a groove that you
folded into a corner, and some metallic duct tape to hold it all together.
Just make sure that you support it adequately.

    I currently have a washable foam filter on my FHA furnace/AC.
    I'd like to switch to a normal throw-away filter type.  However,
    on the edge of the foam filter is a warning about high-volume
    air flow and it warns not to use conventional filters.  Should
    I listen to this warning or is it just a lot of hot air :-)
    
    				-John

    
    
    .....It must be there for a reason........
    
    There might be a "throw-away" filter you can use but it may
    not be the one you buy in the HW store.  I would call someone
    who does this for a living......
    
    JD
    

    Because technology changes, and I am in the market for a unit:
    
    Can anyone recommend a brand, model, dealer?
    
    We had a drum type unit that died an early death.
    
    Located in southern New Hampshire.  We have an oil burner and forced
    hot air with insulated metal ducts.
    
    Thanks,
    Laura

I liked the Sears model I installed in my last house.  It has a drum but
does not place any parts inside the furnace duct, relying on a fan to draw
air into the unit and back into the duct.  It was inexpensive (I paid about
$130 on sale) and I could install it myself.

				Steve

All the ceiling registers in our house (and all the other houses in our
subdivision) have the air aimed at the outside walls.  The registers are
between 1' and 2' from the outside walls and some are right in front of
windows.  Because of this, some of them ended up blowing all the hot air
(or cold air, depending on the season) on top of a wall unit or the kitchen
cabinets.

I went around and rotated them all 180 degrees so they aim in towards the
middle of the rooms.  It seems to circulate the heat better and we certainly
feel the heat more when it comes on.

Why would the builder aim them all at the wall?  Did I do something wrong
or doesn't it really matter?

Dave

The major area of heat loss (other than the roof) is the walls, especially
the windows.  There is no heat loss at the center of a room or interior
walls.  If the heat is applied to the interior of the house, you'll get
hot spots and cool spots, and it will tend to be drafty.  If the heat
is applied along the outside walls the whole house will tend to be evenly
heated throughout.

I know from experience, my house had its air vents along interior walls
and it was drafty.  It now has FHW along outside walls and is much better
in this regard.

-Mike

You balance cost and comfort.  You didn't do anything "wrong" per se.  Beyond
comfort, I believe the only real concern is to keep plumbing from freezing. 
Just check that you didn't create a cold wall that might have plumbing in it
running up to a bathroom upstairs.  (Not likely but in an old house, anything
is possible)  

One winter we elected to keep the house at 52 and saved a lot of money, and no
we weren't comfortable unless we were heavily dressed or under quilts.  If you
can afford to keep the house heated to the level where you are most
comfortable, then you decide what comfortable is and aim the registers anywhere
you want.  I agree with -.1 that you'll get more even heat by heating the 
external portions of the room, but in theory, that should also cost more money
as heat loss is proportional to the differential temperature.  If you sit in
the middle of the room, heat the middle and you'll lose less heat than you would
if the walls were warmer.

-Bob

I have just added a three-season sunporch to my house and would now like to 
add heat to it.  The house has forced hot air (FHA) heat.  Fortuitously, 
there is an FHA duct currently _exactly_ where I'd like it to be.  It ends
under the sliding door (to the new porch) and is currently capped.

I would like to extend this duct and run it out to the far edge of the 
porch (15 feet) and bring it up to a floor register.  My question is: how
best to go from under the house to under the porch?

As seen below in the ASCII diagram, the joists kind of line up.  As viewed
from above, there is distance of about 10" common to the box that the duct
is now in and the box in which I'd like to continue it.  The present duct
is 7" dia. round so from a top view there should be no problem.

But my band joist is a 2x8, I think.  If I cut a 7"+ diameter hole in it,
there won't be much wood left over.  Maybe the answer is to go to a 
rectangular duct at  the band joist and continue it rectangularly for the
15' under the porch.  

Suggestions?  Do the adapters which I'm considering exist off-the-shelf? or
will I need custom ductwork to do this?

Thanks for any advice.
Erik

                                                          [ TOP VIEW ]

              |<------------ 16" ------------>|

                 |<------ 10" ------>|

              |  |                            |  |
              |  |      want to continue      |  |
              |  |       duct out here        |  |        (porch joists)
              |  |                            |  |
--------------+--+----------------------------+--+-----
                B A N D    J O I S T
-----+--+----------------------------+--+--------------
     |  |                            |  |
     |  |      existing 7" duct      |  |                 (house joists)
     |  |    between these joists    |  |
     |  |                            |  |

     |<------------ 16" ------------>|

    
    There shouldn't be a problem with connecting the ducts - you can get
    angles or flexible ducts to negotiate any direction changes. Even with
    a rectangular box, you would have to cut away a lot of the band joist
    to get through.  I'm not sure, but that may cause more problems and
    could be against code.
    
    Is there any way you can go across a few feet, up the main house wall
    and across the porch ceiling to a central down vent?  The other
    things you have to consider are; insulating the duct - what's under the
    porch? and how the air flows back to the return registers to the
    furnace.  If you close the porch door, the air cannot recirculate
    so you will have a problem balancing the temperature
    
    How about something like this:
    
                         to ceiling down vent
                          ^    +--+
                          "    | door to porch
                          "    |  |
                          "    |  | [] <-return vent from porch
                          " ---+--+------
                          "=====[] <-existing duct
    
    This would also give you an opportunity to install a vent baffle,
    so you can close off the duct to the porch or balance the airflow.
    
    An alternative could be just to take a short route, across, up a few
    inches and put a register straight through the wall.  Then install
    a circulating fan to distribute the warm air.  This may even be
    more energy efficient if the porch has a high ceiling.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

I have converted a screen porch into a sun room and want to add heat from 
the existing house furnace. Also I have a bedroom that is not currently 
heated that I would like to hook up too.

The system is gas heated FHA.

My question is, how do I calculate what size of furnace is required (ie is
my current furnace big enough)??

Paul

    When we bought our new FHA furnace last Dec, we just told the salesman
    the number of rooms we needed to heat and the total square footage. 
    One of the spec on the furnace spec sheet is the square footage it can
    heat.  If you dont have the spec sheet for your current furnace, the
    manufacturer can give you this information.
    
    Rhonda

>    When we bought our new FHA furnace last Dec, we just told the salesman
>    the number of rooms we needed to heat and the total square footage. 
>    One of the spec on the furnace spec sheet is the square footage it can
>    heat.  If you dont have the spec sheet for your current furnace, the
>    manufacturer can give you this information.
    
    Um....not having FHA, but doesn't the ceiling height have something to 
do with the capacity as well. 9' ceilings will take longer than 7' ceiling 
rooms I would guess.....Maybe cubic feet is what you need to figure?

    Vic

PS: This note is no longer write-locked at request of the author.

      It  also makes a difference whether the house is well inulated and
      has good, tight windows and doors.
      
      If  you  compare a house with wall insullation the R30s and triple
      pain, draft free windows to one with R13 and drafty,  single  pain
      windows  you'll  find  that the second house requirs a furnace with
      literally 2 to 3 times more capacity.

Hi,

    My FHA furnace is not working.  The brand name of the furnace is HEIL
    and it is 3 yrs old.  

    The problem is that when it is turned on, it just makes a humming noise,
    as if something is stuck.  After awhile, it shuts off.  Pressing the 
    primary reset button on the motor does not help.  It only brings it
    back to the humming condition.

    Background:

    About a month ago, the furnace stopped working.  I pressed the reset button
    and it started working again (until 2 nights ago!).  Also, don't know if 
    this is related but lately I have noticed a delay of a few seconds 
    between when the furnace turns on and when the oil ignites.  

    I've tried:

    	- changed oil and air filters 
    	- took out the firing head and cleaned
    	- checked electrical wiring to the furnace

    Anyone have any ideas?  This unit is only 3 years old!

Thanks,
Matt

    May be a weak transformer so you're not getting enough spark.
    
    May be a clogged nozzle; is there oil in the bottom of the
    combustion chamber?  If not, after pushing the reset with no
    ignition, you're probably not getting oil through.
    
    Can you tell if the motor that drives the oil pump is working?

re .23:

Where is this button you are pushing?  On the burner motor or on a control
box?  If the motor, it's likely a thermal circuit breaker and it sounds
like the motor is jammed somehow or something.  This would give a humming
sound like you describe.

There is also a safety cutout.  A sensor detects if there is a flame in
the burner within a certain time, if not it will cut it off.

Reasons for no flame?  Bad ignition transformer, oil pump lost its prime
(did you run out of oil?) for some.

-Mike

    
    Hi
    
    Thanks for the quick responses!!
    
    re: .24:
    
    When I had the firing head out, I verified that the nozzle is not
    clogged.  I put pressure on the input end and saw oil come out...
    How do I check if there is oil in the combustion chamber? 
    
    It doesn't seem that the motor is working at all. Is there only one
    motor?  While I had the firing head out (under the transformer), I made
    sure that the air fan was able to freely spin.  I thought the motor was
    jammed.  I assume this fan is driven by the motor...
    
    re: 25:
    
    I tried both reset buttons.  If it is the safety cutout you mention,
    is there a special way to reset this.  I also made sure I have oil in
    the tank.  This furnace is a 2-way system.  Excess oil is pumped back
    to the tank.  My manual says a 2-way system doesn't need to be primed.
    
    Is there a simple way to test for a bad transformer?  (btw, I have a
    multimeter)  Also, is there a way to verify the motor is shot. 
    
    Thanks
    Matt

The safety cutout is reset by waiting a couple minutes from the time it
trips and pressing the button.  Don't do this more than a couple times
without waiting an extended period, as oil fumes in the combustion chamber
can build up and go boom.  The safety cutout exists to prevent this from
happening.

I'd reset both switches, try running the furnace and see which one trips.

Does the furnace blower spray oil?  If not, 1) the motor is seized, 2)
Nozzle is plugged or 3) blower is not getting oil (out of oil, plugged line/
filter, no prime (I'm not familiar with the 2 line system, can't verify if
it needs prime or not))  Does it blow air?  Does it sound "normal" except
for the sound of burning oil?

The transformer should draw a definite arc across the ignition electrodes.
Thes electrodes sometimes burn back or get rounded off, they can be adjusted
or replaced.  Don't try to test it with a voltmeter not designed to test
thousands of volts, you'll damage it and likely seriously shock yourself.

-Mike

    I'm no expert...
    
    I'm also not familiar with a 2 line system.  But you could do a couple
    of easy things to make sure it is primed and the pump is working.
    
    Shut off the electrical switch to the heating system.
    
    Place a bucket under the oil filter (next to the tank), there should
    be a bleed screw on top of the filter (screw is in the bolt that
    tightens the filter housing).  Loosen the screw.  If air is coming out
    of this screw, you have air in the line.  Leave the screw loose until
    oil starts coming out, let the oil come out until all the little air
    bubbles go away.  Then tighten down the screw.
    
    If you had air in the line.  Turn switch back on and try the system 
    again.
    
    If it still does not work.  Prime the line by the pump motor.  There
    should be a nozzle on the motor that you can attach a hose to.  Place
    other end of hose in a jar.  Turn on heating system, back off on the
    nozzle nut (just slightly).  You should see or hear air or oil coming
    out of the hose.  IF there is air (you have air in the line), if there
    is foam (you have air in the line).  Let the pump work all the air out.
    When there is only oil coming thru the hose (no air or foam) tighten
    the nut.  Oil will now go to the nozzle and should startup the furnace.
    This entire process (depending on how much air is in the line) should
    take under 30 seconds.
    
    If there is anything coming out of the hose (including air) I would
    think that the burner motor (the pump) is working.  (Fellow DIY's
    correct me if I am wrong).  If nothing is coming out of there then
    there is a problem with the pump.
    
    If the line is primed, and the pump is working.  I would check out the
    transformer...  An area I have yet to get familiar with...
    
    Good luck, Mark 

<    Place a bucket under the oil filter (next to the tank), there should
<    be a bleed screw on top of the filter (screw is in the bolt that
<    tightens the filter housing).  Loosen the screw.  If air is coming out
<    of this screw, you have air in the line.  Leave the screw loose until
<    oil starts coming out, let the oil come out until all the little air
<    bubbles go away.  Then tighten down the screw.

   When I had a oil fired FHW system, my "bleed screw" was on the pump, at the
burner end of the line, not on the filter at the tank (supply) end of the line.
The process was just like bleeding brakes on a car.

   Considering we are literally playing with fire here, I am not about to
suggest anyone DIY... if you don't know what you're doing, get a pro.

Al 

    Are you sure at least the blower motor is working? Usually there is an
    internal themostat that checks chamber temp. in gas heating system. May 
    also be true for a oil fired FHA. 
    When the chamber hits the 135 degree mark or so, then the blower kicks in. 
    to exhaust the heat in the chamber.
    If the chamber is already at that temp, when you turn the heat on,
    the blower will attempt to kick in, and if the motor is bad, the
    breaker will trip. 
                                       
    Check the blower in addition to the other checks mentioned. You should
    be able to at least eliminate possibilities and help a certified
    tech. quickly isolate the problem and save some $$$.
    
    Dave'
    

    Our house has oil heat, with forced-hot air.  What an
    experience!
    
    It's so NOISY that we can hear the noise on the second floor of 
    the house.  
    
    Part of the living room floor actually VIBRATES when the furnace 
    comes on (the living room has a hardwood floor).
    
    Is this common?  It's really awful to live with.  The house is 38 
    years old, and the furnace is new.  There's no insulation in the 
    basement.  (It's debatable how much insulation is in the rest of 
    the house too.)
    
    Any solutions???
    
    Thanks.
    
    Gale
    

    I discovered that when people say forced-hot air heat with oil is 
    DIRTY, they're right!
    
    We change the filter on the furnace each month.  This week-end
    we removed the heating grates from each room and vacuumed the areas.
    
    Are there any other kinds of filters (or something else) you can use 
    to prevent dirt from entering the rooms.  For example, can you put 
    a filter behind each grate?
    
    Any other dirt-eliminating suggestion?  (I'm really not obsessed 
    with cleanliness, but our house gets filthy.)
    
    Thanks.
    
    Gale
    

    I've had this same problem. 
    
    Check the gap of the electrodes. If you have the paperwork for the
    furnace gun, then look up the proper specs for the location and
    gap of the electrodes. This may fix the problem.
    
    BTW - be careful when you finally relight the furnace. Everytime you
    tried to start it you put oil into it. Now there is a lot of oil
    around and it make surprise you with the, um, exuberance of it's
    starting.
    
    BLD
    

    I have set this note to write mode again. Note 4056 addresses noise 
in FHA systems as well but have at it...

    Vic
    

    Note 4056 discusses filters at the grates.

    I have set this note to write again to continue the discussion.

    	Vic

    
    As it's a recent installation, perhaps you should get the installer to
    check that the fan is OK first.  If that checks out, try finding where
    it is vibrating by pressing on the ductwork above and around the
    furnace (may be hot!) to see if that reduces the vibration.  If you can
    find a bad spot, it may be possible to adjust the duct brackets or
    wedge a bit of non-combustible material (scrap of sheetrock ect.)
    between the duct and the floor.  Getting the ducts insulated might help
    too.
    
    Colin
    

I am having the same problems with noise and also with air being returned from
the furnace.  The heating contractors -- who I have littel faith in, are coming
over tomorrow morning after the 5th phone call to "review" the problem.

The noise that comes out of the ducting is phenomenal.  The worst part is that
the return starts at the same time the blower is going, and this is all in the
;living room -- you can not watch TV.  When the noise starts it is as if the
TV is on mute, if you turn up the volume when the blowers go off you are 
blasted out of the room.  I HATE it!!!!!!

The heating contractors told me to cover up the air return to see if that would
stop the frequent cycling and perhaps ;cut down the noise.  Well, I covered up
most of it but now when the air return shuts down the sheet metal clanks so
loud it starts the dogs barking.  I don't know what is worse.

This is a new furnace installed into a very old home.  My biggest problem is 
that they reused the ductwork from the old furnace and the I think they are too
big.  Also part of the pipes are uninsulated and the air that goes into the
kitchen -- the very next room is 15 degrees colder than the living room.

I will let you know what they say about my noise problem....

dana

We lived in a house once which had FHA with an oil burner.  This was a big old
green thing; the house was built in the 1960s.  It was loud too, we had banging
too when the thing started up.  There was lots of air being pushed through the
ducts.

We were fortunate to have an intelligent guy come out to look at the problem
(this was COAN oil service out of Natick, MA).  What he did was to slow the blower
down.  He may have put a speed-reduction pulley thingie on the blower shaft, but
at any rate, the effect was to "gear down" the RPMs from the motor to the blower.

The change was amazing!  It was much much quieter and there was no more banging 
(this was likely from the initial blast of air through the ducts).  Lastly, the heat
in the house was much more constant:  because the blower was running slower (and
longer), it was also cycling much less frequently.

-Chris

    RE: Last Two
    
    The blower speed on most furnaces is adjustable. Typically, you can
    select low, medium, and high. Find out what speed the blower is set
    to, and try a lower speed.
    
    Marc H.

    
    	How do you adjust the speed? Is there a switch on the blower motor
    	I didn't see right away?
    
    	I'm the reverse, I want to boost mine. It took the furnace being
    	on (non-stop) for over an hour and a half just to bring the house 
    	(a smallish 7 room colonial) up to 60 degrees last night. That doesn't 
    	seem right to me...   (the wood stove in the other room helped too)
    
	-Erik

    > how long do your furnaces run? 
    
    7 room ranch, with two bedrooms closed. Takes about 50 minutes to bring
    temp from 54 to 64.
    
    Which brings me to the next question... Is there anyway (charts,
    programs, etc.) other than T&E to determine if it's more efficient to
    (a) maintain a particular temp by keeping the heat up and using the
    furniture, walls, etc as thermal mass to maintain the temp, thereby
    resulting in shorter run cycles, or (b) let the temp drop and then have
    to overcome the thermal inertia of the same furniture, etc.
    
    When my house is warmed up, the run rates go about 9 minutes every 70
    or so, at an outside temp in the 20-30 degree range. What I don't know
    is how long it takes the house to cool down to the 54 degrees I set the
    temp at during non-occupied periods or at night...
    
    I wish I had a meter that would track run rates and outside temp...
    
    Edd

    
    According to the guy that fixed my furnace last year, Honeywell
    does a "smart" thermostat for about $70 that will help you work
    out the most efficient burn cycle.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    
    	I just added an addition to my house (26x28), garage under, rooms
    	above. The heating guys suggested not to add another zone, (which
    	was my intent), but he would add a switch that will run the blower
    	ONLY. What this will do (I hope), is to circulate the air
        throughout the house. If one part of your house is warmer than
    	te rest, the heat will be more even throughout. In my case I have
    	skylights in on large room, with ceiling fans. During the day, this
    	room should actually generate heat and be moved through the house.
    
    	It has yet to get very cold (In Mass).. so it really hasn't ben
        tested out, but the heating guy said he had experience. I also
    	wired it, so that I can put in another zone if not satisfied. He
    	also INCREASED the size of the RETURN duct. This (if your system
    	has the capability), will increase the amount of air that is being
    	moved. I wasn't aware that the RETURN was very important until 
    	educated!
    
    		Smitty
    

re: the question on how to change the blower speed ...

Our blower had the "speed reduction pulley thingie" I referred to in
4790.4 ... This technical term was supposed to describe a belt pulley which
actually had 3 or so different diameter "notches" in it.  Moving the belt
from one to another would change the blower's speed.

-Chris

Well, the furnace man came out.  There might be some fixes that will help for 
the time being.  When I bought the house, a new furnace was part of the deal --
and that is exactly what was put into the house.  The sellers didn't want to 
spend more than they had to and I was too naive to put anything else in 
writing.  Silly me.

A new furnace, old ducts, old everything else.  The duct pipe varies in size 
from 12", 10" and 8".  The air intake is about 3x the size it needs to be 
and this where the majority of the noise is coming from.

We are going to install a damper in the main pipe so that the living room is
not the only room to heat up.  Temporarily, we closed the vent in the LR and 
now the other rooms have a chance at being luke warm.  He is also going to
install some flex pipe which he feels will cut down the noise.

There will also be some insulation put onto the pipes that go under the house
thru the crawl space -- they were told any new pipes were to be just that --
pipes with no insulation.  I love it!  

At least I don't see my breathe in the kitchen and sweat in the LR!

dana

    - blower speed: examining the labels inside my Lenox Gas FHA furnace
    	there are several different colored wires coming off the motor.
    	You wire it up according to the speed desired.
    
    - FYI: Home Depot has quite a selection of smart thermostats (including
    Honeywell)    Buying one is on my list for RealSoonNow.

    	Dave.

    I have an American Standard Gas hot air furnace that I guess is as old
    as my house.  (about 35 yrs)  My noise problem is different:  When the
    blower turns on, the sheet metal on the sides of the furnace bows out
    kind of like an oil can effect.  This causes a real loud banging sound
    that can be heard throughout the house.  When the fan turns off and the
    unit cools, the sheet metal sucks in causing the same noise again.  The
    movement of the sheet metal I guess is caused by both the expansion
    from the heat and the pressure caused by the blower.  Any ideas
    regarding this annoying problem?
    
    By the way I recently installed a humidifyer in the system.  Not the
    plate type but the type that sprays water in like a fuel injector.  It
    cost $99 at Home Depot.  It works great!
    

Beware of your humidifier, that the water it sprays doesn't rust out
your plenum.  Those are *expensive* to replace!

    re:  Rust problem
    
    Good point.  The ducts themselves are galvanized.  I already had to
    reduce the humidity level, the unit has a humidistat.  If the humidity
    level is too high some of the water will not be absorbed into the air. 
    As a result, the water collects on an inside waal of the furnace and
    runs down.  This can sure cause rust.  Another sign of the humidity
    level being too high is condensation on the insides of the windows in
    the house.
    
    I have to tell you thoug that a feel so much better physically not
    having to breathe that terrible dry air.  The humidifier also saves
    heating costs because higher humidity levels cause you too feel warmer
    at lower temperatures.  I can keep the thermostat at 64-66 and still
    feel comfortable.

    Re: banging furnace.
    
    I had LILCO look at it this morning and they told me that it's a common
    problem but there is nothing that they can do.  
    

    
    Re: banging furnace...
    
     The plunim chamber (sheet metal) should be ribbed to avoid the noise.
    Buy some cheap angle iron and screw horizontally across chamber on the
    outside of the sides that expand. The noise will go away.

    I think I'll try that.  I was thinking of a heavier guage sheet metal
    to screw or rivet to the outside of the furnace to add rigidity.  But
    your idea is probabally easier.  How certain are you that the noise
    will go away?
    

    When you attach the angle iron to the chamber you can add a line of
    silicone to sort of glue the two together along with rivits or screws.
    I did this on my rental unit and it been quiet for four years now.
    
    TMW

    Thanks I'll try the silicone too.  Do you think I could use band iron
    instead of angle iron?  I think it would be easier and look a little
    better.
    

    You want something to stiffen or dampen the panel.  Anything that is
    flat will not really do that.  But before you drill holes, try just
    sticking a stiffener on with silicone.  Lay a nice straight bead
    down the width of the panel and stick down the stiffener of your
    choice.  No holes may be needed at all.  Good luck.
    

    I'm not sure if the silicone will hold a stiffener in place without
    screws or rivits. The champer does get warm so that might be a
    negative factor.
    
    TMW

    The heat won't bother the silicone.  I use silicone sealer around engines
    with no problems.
    
    Its quick and inexpensive to try.  And its easier to scrape off silicone
    if you change your mind about placement than it is to fill in holes.....
    
    Once you are satisfied that you have siliconed the stiffener in the
    right place, THEN you drill a hole or three.

    
    Fair and reasonable sanity check please:
    
    I diagnosed a failing blower motor on a friend's FHA Gas furnace
    (Bryant, installed 1968).  The motor seized, heated and wouldn't turn.
    
    In addition to the motor feeling a bit tight when turning the blower, I
    noticed one of the mounting bracket bolts was loose.  Tightened the
    bolt, and spun the blower a bit by hand.  I allowed to motor to cool
    overnight (in addition to the occupants) and it started just fine the
    next morning.
    
    A local heating contractor was called, informed of the specific
    problem, model and type of furnace.  Over the phone, the estimate was
    $130-$160 for the blower motor and 1 - 1.5 hours labor.
    
    The real bill was:
	Motor		$139.50
    	Motor bracket	$ 15.00
	Capacitor	$ 12.50
    	3 hours labor	$114.00
    
    The motor is no problem, but 3 hours labor?  The service person didn't
    have the proper parts, had to make a retrun trip with the bracket and
    motor, wired the motor to the medium speed (the original was wired for
    the low speed).  Service person returned a 3rd time with CO detection
    stickers and a statement claiming that (although no formal inspection
    was performed) the heating system may be unsafe.  The service person
    said there was rust in the heat exchanger, but as far as I know he did
    not find (or look for) any cracks.
    
    Is the bracket a resonable additional expense?  And why is the
    capacitor necessary for the replacement motor?  And if the original
    motor was wired for low-speed, shouldn't the new motor also be wired to
    a similar speed?  My friend claims that the air flow is greater than
    it ever was by a significant amount.
    
    I realize that concerns about CO leaks in the heat exchanger are
    serious, but it is just too easy to scare people into buying new
    furnaces.  
    
    I just don't get the feeling that the repairs were done with true
    knowledge of the specific system involved.  The repairman didn't bother
    looking at the Bryant specs that were given to him for the system.  I'm
    concerned about the correctness of the repair.
    
    Any advice welcome,
    
    bob
    

re    <<< Note 1634.7 by BOWLES::BOWLES "Bob Bowles - T&N EIC/Engineering" >>>
                  -< Sanity check a repair to FHA gas blower >-
lots of issues....
    
    re overcharges...I had a similar situation where a plumber installing
    gas lines had to drive back to the shop to get something.  Since the
    contractor knew what had to be done before sending the plumber out, I
    balked at paying for his labor while he drove around getting pipe he
    should already have with him; I refused to pay for that time.  In this
    case, 1-1.5 hrs would have been reasonable.
    
    re bad motor.  It is possible that the motor had come loose in the
    bracket and jammed against something, therefore stopping.  It would not
    have been the first motor that ran forever after it had been freed up. 
    Might not have needed replacing, however that would have been the
    owner's call, not the tech.
    
    re speed.  Most likely, the low speed hookup was designed for central
    air.  Some thermostats can automatically select low speed for air
    conditioning, medium for heating and some have a manual switch for high
    speed if you just want to circulate air.  
        
    re exchanger.  They do rust out.  It is a problem if they become
    perforated.  I had mine checked by the local Gas Co.  At the same time,
    they did a safety check of all gas appliances.  The charge was minimal. 
    They seem to care little if you buy a new furnace.  When you do, they
    just steer you to a local contractor.
    

Dave    

    
    The reason for the statement concerning safety is probably to Cover his
    Butt. The furnace is old, FHA furnaces tend to rust out, he was the
    last to work on it. If your friend has a CO problem tomorrow and someone 
    gets sick or dies....guess who gets blamed for not inspecting or at least
    warning him that the furnace could be a problem. The Service company. 
    
    	Fan speed: Low or medium for heat, high speed for cooling is
    usually the way they are setup from the factory.
    
    
    
    
    

Re: .5

�    These motors can be repaired too.  Probably cheaper than a new one.
�    Anybody ever have a motor rebuilt?  .0, where are you located? 
�    I know of a couple places in central Mass that rebuild motors.

The motor on the distribution blower on my wood furnace needs at least a good
cleaning.  There were a couple of times this past winter when it slowed down a
*lot*.  I ended up oiling it several times.

Can anyone recommend anyone to clean/rebuild motors in the Worcester MA area?  I
live in Grafton, and Phil Gransewicz's recommendation was in Gardner MA.

								-- Chuck Newman

    
    anyone know where I can find Brass type heating vents I have looked
    around and the ones I nee to replace are an odd size I haven't found in
    any of the Do-It-Yourself-Stores that I have looked in.
                                                  Thanks,Ron

    Renovators Supply in Sturbridge, MA may have them.  They seem to have
    brass everything.  They do mail order too, if you aren't in the area.

    Don't know where you are located, but I have heard of a place in Ayer,
    MA that has them. Have been meaning to get over there myself.  I think
    I have the address at home.  If so, I will post it.

Reggio Register
20 Central Ave
Ayer, MA

(508)772-3493

I have an oil-fired forced-hot-air heating system.  My question concerns
the way that it cycles on and off to maintain temperature.

The way it used to work is that the air circulation blower would start 
about twenty seconds after the burner had started.  It would 
correspondingly stop about twenty seconds after the burner had stopped.  
See timing diagram below:


                on          +-------+       +-------+       +-------+
   Burner:                  |       |       |       |       |       |
                off +-------+       +-------+       +-------+

                on:           +-------+       +-------+       +-------+
   FHA blower:                |       |       |       |       |       |
                off:  +-------+       +-------+       +-------+


First question:  what controls this timing?  Is there a timer or is the
circulation blower controlled thermostatically?

a few years ago, I let the filter go too long between changes.  The first 
symptom I noticed from the heating system was that the circulation blower 
would stay on for a long time during which the burner would cycle on and 
off repeatedly:


                on        +-------+       +-------+       +-------+
   Burner:                |       |       |       |       |       |
                off ------+       +-------+       +-------+

                on:         +--------------------------------------+
   FHA blower:              |                                      |
                off: -------+


I tried the obvious thing first (changing the filter) and this behavior
stopped.

It's doing it again now even with a clean filter.  What should I check?
Another air blockage somewhere?

Thanks for any help.
Erik J. Forsberg
    
              

    
    When the thermostat call for heat, it energizes the burner
    only.
    
    Once the heat exchanger is up in temp., approx 120 degrees, the
    fan limit switch starts the fan.  Should the fan not be delivering
    the CFMs the unit was designed for, the heatx high temp limit will
    shut the burner off and the fan will continue to run.
    
    Reasons for insufficient air flow are; Dirty filter. Loose belt.
    Buckets in the fan full of dirt.  Something restricting the return
    air grille(s).  Outlet diffusers closed down too much.
                 KILL THE POWER TO THE FURNACE !!!!!        Then:
    If you have a blower with the motor on the inside of the squirrel
    cage, remove the whole assy.  Usually there are just a few screws
    on the top of the fan volute and the bottom slips into a slot.
    
    On the opposite side of the fan you'll find (usually 2) set screws
    holding the fan on the shaft.  Loosen them.  Then remove the three
    bolts holding the motor brackets onto the fan housing.  Set the 
    housing on a couple pieces of 4 X 4 or larger with the shaft side
    up.  Find something made of brass, copper or aluminum which you
    can put on the end of the shaft.  A long brass rod 1/2" dia. is best.
    If the motor shaft has one flat side, where the set screw on the round
    part is, there is a little hump which is going to make life a little
    miserable now.  Never, ever, beat on the end of a shaft with a steel
    object.  Once you've pushed the little hump mentioned, you'll have a
    mushroomed shaft end to contend with next.  Takes a little patience
    also self control to keep from really BELTING IT, but it'll go.
    
    Remove the motor. Look in the air outlet. Should be a piece of
    sheetmetal which prevents the fan from comming out. Remove it.
    Remove the fan and scrub the buckets good'n clean.  Got an air 
    compressor?  If not, use your vac and blow out the motor. 
    Look around the perimeter of the silver end bells. Any holes
    with plastic plugs for oil?  If not, place it shaft up and put
    about 6 drops of SAE 30 oil on the outer edge of the bearing.
    wait a few minutes, turn it over and do the same.  Don't over
    oil a motor. 6 drops is plenty.                                   
    
    RE-assemble and try it!  You should have a burner serviceman
    do his thing once a year.  If it's not set right, you'll pay
    more than his bill would've been, for fuel.  If you have the 
    factory start up paperwork, give it to him. Makes it a bit
    easier.
    
    If your fan has an external motor and belt, Your part of the bargain
    has been made easier.  :^)  Always keep a spare belt hanging
    around.  They never break until it 10 degrees at 2 AM.
    
    Have fun.   :^)
    
    Fred 
    

	    It sounds as though the air from the blower is not cooling
	the plenum (hot box) as quickly as it should/used to.  I would
	guess that there is an ostruction to air flow.  Does the air
	from the registers feel as though it's blowing strong enough?
	    You may need to vacuum out the plenum.  There's a cover you 
	remove to do this.  This is a normal procedure during a tune up.
	If the furnace hasn't been tuned for a couple of years, it will
	be worth the cost to have it done.

					Tim

    
    ...I'd bet on loose or worn belt.....
    
    

    
      It could also be that one of the temperature senors is failing and
    getting way out of adjustment.
    
    				Kenny

    
    I'm in the process of looking for a FHA humidifier and was wondering if
    any of you folks have anything new to add since this was last discussed
    here.
    
    I went to Sears and was told that they don't carry them anymore and
    that they can set me up with an outfit that would install one for me. I
    don't like paying for things I can do myself.
    
    I checked out some Hamiltom units at Home Depot. They had a few different 
    models to pick from, the typical drum/wick type that attach to the warm
    air ducts. 
    
    They had another model that consisted of a little box with a spray
    nozzle that sprays a fine mist into the warm air duct. In theory I like
    the idea, but I'm not sure how well this particular model would work.
    Would something like this produce the white powder usually given off
    by the ultrasonic humidifers? I didn't like the fact that it doesn't
    have a humidistat that connected to the cold air return. The
    three units they had on the shelf were all re-packaged so I opened one
    up to find it was used/missing parts and instructions. Obviously, folks
    have had problems with these ($108).
    
    Anyone have any recent experience they can share with FHA humidifiers?
    
    Steve

    >    I went to Sears and was told that they don't carry them anymore...
    
    I don't know which Sears you went to, but the one at PLM carries two
    models, the Kenmore 2500 and 3000.   Looks like I"ll be installing the
    3000. The type that draws air into the unit.. 

    Re:.7
    	Last weekend I went to Sears and Home Depot in search of a
    whole-house humidifier on an FHA system.   Sears had the Kenmore ones
    on sale ($119 and 139).  Home Depot had 3: 2 were from HHP (Hamilton
    Home products) and 1 was the atomizing unit (don't remember the name
    offhand but I have it written down at home).  The HHP's were under
    $100.
    	I asked to speak to someone knowledgeable in that area, I got Andre
    the plumbing expert.  He said the best one was the atomizing unit for
    these reasons:
    	1- Adjustable humidity switch (5 settings from hi to lo) which the 
    	   other types don't have.
    	2- No black filters to change as there is none.
        3- Don't have to treat sitting water with the bacterio-something
    	   solutions as you do with regular humidifiers that work on the
    	   sitting water concept.
        4- Ease of installation as the unit is only 3x5 on the surface you
           screw into the duct.  The atomizer has a sprayer nozzle that
    	   is centered in the middle of supply duct.
    I plan on contacting the manufacturer and getting more literature and
    information.  I ended up not buying anything that day.  Andre put some
    more on order that day and they'll have some new, unopened packages in 
    3 wks.  By the way, I did not read this notes file before I went and am 
    now looking through to see if anyone else has any opinions.  As for the 
    opened packages, I found 2 of them and I think it's not so much that they 
    are returns but from curious shoppers.

    I recently installed an atomizing humidifiers and am pleased with the
    results.. It is a very easy installation (as long as there is an outlet
    nearby -- I had to wire one..)
    
    It's hard to tell whether I notice a difference. I have it turned all
    the way up and it's always on. I haven't really noticed more
    condensation on the windows yet.  But I'll bet I'll notice a difference
    with a humidistat (compared to our neighbor's house, for example).
    
    One recommendation.. Replace the cheap plastic compression fitting with
    a brass one.. I feel a lot better knowing that the brass fitting is
    going to hold the connection to the water better..
    
    -Gary

Re: .10

You won't see condensation on the windows until the weather gets consistently
very cold and try outside.  I have experience with humidifiers in one house
without adequate ventilation, and in another with too much ventilation.  I have
mold and dust allergies which are controlled by careful maintenance of relative
humidity in the home.  My suggestion is to get an independent humidity gauge. 
For many homes, the humidifier does not need to be on all the time.  Your ideal
target RH in a home in the winter is 40-50%.  More than that is a waste of time,
and you just may find yourself with dust and mold allergies, too!

Elaine

    We are building a home and want to install "floor grates" at the front
    and side doors.  We have seen these in commercial buildings or in homes
    (non-U.S.) but can't locate them at your typical hardware store.
    
    They are grates built into the floor which catch sand, etc. upon
    entering and they have a trap underneath to clean it out.
    
    Any suggestions where we could find these to order/purchase?
    
    Thanks,
    Betty

    re .10:
    
    	Does the humidistat also turn the furnace fan on when it calls
    the humidifier?  
    
    	

Can you describe the nature of the grate a little more fully? Decorative or
non-? Type of metal? Weight? Finish?

-Jack

    
    Not normally.   However it can be wired to do so.
    
    If you have a regular round Honneywell T87 Tstat which is 
    the most common, and don't have air conditioning, you'll
    have to have a relay installed in the furnace to parallel
    the 115 volts from the fan limit control to the motor.
    
    If you elect to do this, I suggest the installation of a
    high limit humidistat in the duct, about 1/2 way down
    the main branch.  Set it about 80% and this will keep
    you from getting the air too saturated and having the 
    moisture condense out when the fan shuts down and the 
    duct work is cool.  Wire it in series with the space
    humidistat.
    
    But, unless you have a rather "loose" house, the running
    time of your system should be able to keep the RH +- 3%
    from setpoint. If you have a tight house and the humidity
    will not rise, you could have the fan limit "OFF" point
    set too high. This will shorten the run time of the fan.
    You could lower the cut in temp also which wouold bring 
    fan on sooner. Don't lower it more than 10 degrees without
    your serviceman there, unless you are familiar with it's 
    operation.  This will have a slight effect on the efficiency
    in the first minute or two of operation but the heat-x will
    catch up.  If your Tstat is too close to a diffuser that too
    will cause a short cycle of your system.   If you have the 
    blueprints of the home, check for the CFMs that should be
    comming out of each diffuser/register.  If the house is not
    properly balanced out, you'll notice some areas cold and clammy
    while others could be too warm and dry.  If you have these
    figures available, check with the HVAC man at your plant. They
    should have a simple device you could borrow and should be able
    to instruct you on how to go about balancing things.  It's a little
    time consuming, but it's well worth it in the long run.
    
    Fred
     
                                                             

I bought a Atomizing Humdifier from home depot a few years ago - just
like the one that *I* saw there on Saturday!  I had TERRIBLE luck with it.
I have a humidstat that called the Atomizing Humdifier and turned it 
on. I mounted it per the instructions over my furnace.  The problem
was that it dripped for a period of time after the furnace shut off, even
though power was shut off.  This often resulted in a puddle on the floor.

I called and worked with the co rep for months.  They did send me some more
parts that didn't seem to help. Finally I demanded my money back and the 
company was NOT cooperative.  I finally dropped it.  I would have given 
you the unit - but I took it to the dump a few weeks ago.  I went with a 
sears unit - clean it once a year, and it works fine.

I think the concept of the Atomizing Humdifier is better - no reservoir
and threat of bacteria, I just had terrible luck with the product and
the company.

FWIW,

Brian

    RE: .11 No, I don't have it wired to turn on the furnace.. Not sure I
    would want it to in case the humidity level never got high enough to
    turn the furnace back off... 
    
    RE: .14 I too have noticed that the unit turns off a few seconds *after*
    the blower has stopped. The manual noted this saying it shouldn't be a
    problem since it'll be spraying into the sides.. I positioned my unit
    directly above the furnace, I certainly hope that any extra water is
    not dripping down into the furnace. I've got the insulation-type duct
    work (as compared to metal).  I'll definitely be watching this..
    
    _Gary

    
    They're usually 1x.125 flat metal bars, something that won't corrode
    drilled every 6" or so.  The edges are milled as an anti-slip.
    There's a spacer between the bars and they are stacked together on rods
    or long bolts.  Like the big subway vent grilles in NY City.
    
    The grate is inset in concrete in front of the door over a low pit so
    that dirt & sand falls in.  (Imagine the grille over a barbecue). An
    alternative is the heavy-duty "articulated" rubber flooring.
     
    You'd probably be able to assemble one from flat stock and long
    threaded bars.  It's probably something any wrought-iron foundry would
    be able to fabricate.
    
    I'm not sure this would be a good idea in NE, unless it was in a
    covered porch.  You'd have problems with it filling with snowmelt
    and freezing.  There's a lot more salt to corrode it, and it's
    a also killer for high heels. 
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
    

    > The grate is inset in concrete in front of the door...
    
    > I'm not sure this would be a good idea in NE, unless it was in a
    > covered porch.  You'd have problems with it filling with snowmelt
    > and freezing.  There's a lot more salt to corrode it, and it's
    > a also killer for high heels. 
    
    	
    	Actually I think the originator is talking about the type 
    	that is seen in some European homes (saw it on T.O.H once).
    
    	They are actually installed INSIDE the house. Some are metal
    	grates... some are wooden grates... both are placed over a 
    	shallow "well" with a tray that catches the drippings off of 
    	your shoes.
    
    	Curiously, when I first saw one I had the same thought "What 
    	does a woman in heels do? Jump over this thing?"
    
    								- Mac
    

  
     I've seen these in some older houses I've visited.  There's a company
that puts out a catalog with lots of antique-style fixtures and probably has 
this kind of thing.  It's called something like Renovator's Supply or something.
The catalog has been mentioned in this conference (somewhere).

     Buy the grate from them, and construct the crud-bin yourself.

                                     Greg    

    RE: -1  I too installed mine directly over the furnace and my duct
    work is insulated.  I was very concerned about having the water 
    drip down into my furnace - as I said earlier, I even had a puddle on
    the floor.   My application/installation/experience may be the
    exception and not the rule.  But, the company was not very cooperative. 
    I was very concerned about having water down in and around the firebox
    in my furnace.

You could probably get by quite nicely using the grate from the cold-air
return on a FHA heating system.  The one from my old house was approx.
2' by 4' and would fit quite nicely at a threshold..........

call for a 'reggio registers' catalog.  they make very nice cast iron floor
registers in various sizes.  they are a little costly but probably worth it 
if you're considering only one or two.  -craig

p.s. i think the catalog notesfile contains their number, they are in north 
central ma somewhere.

    
    I asked the question .11 because I have worked on many FHA furnaces
    that were in pretty sad shape rust wise. They all had humidifiers in
    them that were controlled by a humidistat that called the humidifier
    which in turn was simply dumping water into the ductwork and it was
    running back into the plenum. A few others I've seen had the humidifier
    on the return air side. The furnace pulled the water through the heat
    exchanger....yikes! Lots of rust on those also. 
    	
    i]
    

    
    I just re-read the note a few replies back by Fred Massicotte. What he 
    says makes sense the humidifier only comes on when the furnace runs. Not 
    when the fan isn't running.  
    
    	Thanks for clarifying that Fred. As an electrician I get to wire
    these from time to time and I've used a sail switch or a
    pressure switch in line with the humidifier contol circuit to make
    sure the humidifier wouldn't run unless the fan was running also.
    
      
    

    
    RE: -.2
    
    If there's rust in the return plenum from the humidifier, an
    excess amount of water is, more than likely, being "blown"
    off the wheel.   Warm air from the heat-x discharge should
    "evaporate" the water from the wheel, not force it off in
    droplets.   Suggest 25% of warm air to the inlet of the 
    humidifier be blocked off, to begin with.
    
    Fred                                                
                 

    Good ideas -- and the noter is correct that stated this particular
    grill goes on the INSIDE of the house, just inside the door, and
    exactly as stated (a trap underneath that catches the dirt, etc.)
    
    I guess I don't wear high shoes much as that never crossed my mind, but
    it's definately something to think about.
    
    Renovator's Supply doesn't carry it, I have their catalog.  I'll check
    the heat register and consider that, or the wrought-iron approach, both
    of which are good ideas for making it ourselves.
    
    Thanks,
    Betty

    Interesting.  I don't recall seeing one inside a house - at least in
    the UK.  Most houses are mostly built on a slab, so the well would have
    to be formed during the cement pour.  How do you plan to install it?
    
    C

    Two more questions:
    
       >  Remove the fan and scrub the buckets good'n clean.
    
       Does "buckets" mean the vanes of the fan?
    
       Also, with an external-motor fan, how does one lubricate the
       fan bearings?
    
       Thanks again.

    We saw them in Japan...
    
    Ours will not be built into concrete as it's on the 1st floor and we
    have a full basement.  We plan to create a wooden box as part of the
    sub-floor, dropped down to create a catch-bin and the grate would go
    over it flush with the first floor.  We would, of course, have to
    reinforce the wooden box to hold weight appropriately.
    

I'm not sure what you are planning to do, but you may want to make the wooden
box out of pressure treated lumber.  Consider that wet or snow covered shoes
make it inside the house no matter what you do.  At inside temperatures, that
moisture will soak into the wood before it evaporates.

    
    The "buckets" are the scoop shaped pieces.  If they have dirt 
    collecting in them it reduces the amount of air the fan moves.
    
    If you have sleeve bearings, there's two ways to lube them.
    One, you can remove the bearing from it's resilient mount and
    soak it in SAE-10 non det oil for a little while.
    Two, in the metal ring that the bearing sits in you'll see a
    hole on top about 5/16" in dia.  Cut the rubber out below this
    mount and drill a 1/8" hole thru the first layer of metal.
    Probably a 1/16" thick - if that.  Do not drill any further.
    This will allow you to wet the wicking with SAE-10 oil. 8 or
    or 10 drops added slowly will take you to next year.
    
    Find something to plug the little holes.
    
    Fred
                                                             

I'd go a step further than the PT lumber and line the box with a galvanized
sheet metal coated with something (plastic/polymer/sealer) to prevent corrosion
from any salt, etc. Easy to clean up, as well. I'd think an FHA installer
that makes ductwork could fabricate a box liner for you for little money.

-Jack

    
    Or less elaborately:
    
    	Line the box with a removable plastic tray for easy cleaning.
    
    								- Mac

    	A cat litter box would probably work.
    
    	Ray

    I COULDN'T FIND A NOTE PERTAINING TO THIS PROBLEM SO HERE GOES...
    
    I HAVE 2 ROOMS IN MY HOME THAT GET VERY LITTLE HEAT FROM THE FURNACE.
    ONE IS MY 3 YEAR OLD'S ROOM.  IT IS THE FURTHEST FROM THE FURNACE AND
    IS ALLWAYS THE COLDEST. THE OTHER IS THE BASEMENT.  THERE ARE 3 VENTS
    IN THE BASEMENT. ONE OF THEM BLOWS QUITE WELL, THE OTHER 2 BLOW VERY
    LITTLE SO ITS AT LEAST 10-15 DEGREES COLDER IN THE BASEMENT WHICH IS
    WHERE MOST OF OUR TIME AT HOME IS SPENT. 
    
    I HAVE TRIED CLOSING OTHER VENTS TO FORCE MORE AIR TO THE STARVED VENTS
    BUT THAT DIDN'T HELP AT ALL.  I HAVE CHECKED AS MUCH OF THE VENTING AS
    I CAN SEE TO SEE IF SOME JOINTS WERE LEAKING BUT DIDN'T FIND MUCH. 
    
    ANY IDEAS.  ALL HELP WILL BE APPRECIATED.
    
    SV

    A couple of things:
    
    You might place insulation around the ductwork to prevent heat loss as
    the air travels to your son's room.  
    
    You could check the windows for drafts and install some of that shrink 
    wrap type window covering.
    
    The vent that blows well might be the one leading to your son's room. 
    If so, it might be diverting too much hot air into the basement before
    it can reach your son's room.
    
    Your basement will almost always be cooler than the rest of the house. 
    You could check the foundation sill for leaks and caulk them.  You
    could stuff insulation around that area also.
    
    Your basement could be too humid.  Consider a dehumidifier.
    
    I'm sure there are lots of other things to do.
    
    Marv
     

I had the bedroom you describe when I was growing up, the end room, furthest
from the furnace.  I was always cold.  In the 70's when fuel got really
expensive, my mother has the attic insulation increased.  That helped quite a
bit, but it was still a cool room.  Then one day, for reasons I don't remember,
we were in the basement looking at the sill.  There was a 1/4 to 3/8" gap in the
sill, and it was under my old room!  We couldn't believe it!  Plugged that up
right away, and now that room is just as comfortable as all the others.

Elaine

Remember too that most ducts have baffles in them, apart from the grille
controls.  They look like handles on the side of the pipe.  Make sure
that those for rooms furthest away are wide open.  If they are closed
or nearly closed, you will definitely see the problem where closing
near to the furnace ducts have little impact on those far away.

stuart

    
    IF - you can find some prints on the house, they should give you
    the amount of air that should be comming from each diffuser/floor
    grille. Also what should be comming out of those in the cellar.
    Total them up. If you are unfamiliar with taking CFM measurements,
    talk to one of the HVAC techs at your site.  
    
    Have you checked the blower belt?  How about the filter?  Are the
    buckets in the fan clean?  Is there an item blocking the return
    air grille such as a bureau?  Do you have the specs for the 
    furnace?  They should tell you how much air the unit is designed
    to move with a certain temperature rise across the heat exchanger
    and the duct static pressure the fan was designed to operate at.
    This may sound rather "deep" to someone who don't normally tinker
    with this stuff so to put it into perspective simply, how far can
    you go on a tire without pressure? Same thing in duct work.
    
    The process is as follows.  You have to know the total CFMs the house
    requires.  Open all registers/grilles/diffusers.   Once the fan is
    operating at designed speed and the motor is not overloaded by trying
    to speed up the fan with the adjustable pulley, velocity readings
    are taken in the duct after the furnace and before the first room
    takeoff and not near an elbow.  If the house calls for 1200 CFMS
    and that is the amount going down the ductwork ( a bit more is fine )
    then you start with the closest outlet and set it per spec. Then each
    in turn and the last one gets what's left which should be exactly
    on the money. If not, check for leaking connections.   Actually,
    if you had a reputable service tech come in that could assure you
    he has the tools to do this, has done it before, and guarantees his
    work, you'll be bucks ahead of the game by next march.  But, you
    need to have "DESIGN DATA"  for him.  He should also be able to
    clean and adjust your burner for maximum efficiency.
    
    Suggest you do the simple things first as I mentioned. The belt(s),
    filters, restrictions and leaks at connections.
    
    Elaine had an excellent point to check into also.  But you mentioned
    air flow.  Not every room gets the same amount of the same temperature
    air. You could cook one room with 100 CFMs of 130 degree air while
    you'd freeze in another larger room on the north side with the same.
    
    Fred

    
    You cvould just install a booster fan for that one room.  It costs $30
    and takes an hour or so to install.
    
    Colin
    
    
    

I'm currently renting a house w/ an ancient oil powered forced hot
air furnace.  So far as I can tell there is no air filtration
used in the system.  Is it possible to buy a filter or some filter
element and place it in the air intake duct?  Or is this not
a good idea?  Any suggestions are appreciated.

-Andy Breeding

    
    
    You might want to hunt around a little more for a filter
    slot.  It might not be located in a well to do stop or 
    there is an access cover over it.    If all else fails,
    find an easy to get at spot in the intake.  Measure and
    see if you can find a filter to fit.  Get the jigsaw out and
    cut a slot in one side and something in the other to prevent
    the filter from getting sucked in.  Then cover the hole with
    duct tape....
    
    Then again you can aways place the filter behind the intake grate
    on the wall......
    
    Depending on the condition.  You  might want to have the system
    cleaned.....
    
    JD

    Mine used to be in the bottom door (lift off) of the furnace
    were the air came in just before the blower motor. You just slid it
    into the grooves and pushed it onto some pins.    The filter I 
    used came from somerville lumber at apx $1.00
    

    
    Look behind the return air grille(s) in the living quarters.
    Many are placed there to catch airborne particles before they
    enter the ductwork.
    
    Fred

Thanks for the suggestions.  I'll look harder and if I don't
find a filter slot I will try the suggestion in .1.

Andy Breeding

re Note 47.0 by VENNEX::ARNOLD:

> My oil fired furnace has a problem.Every once in a while,usually at night,
> when it first turns on and starts firing oil,it rumbles like crazy and
> shakes the whole furnace.

        My oil-fired boiler has developed a similar problem.  An
        additional symptom is a large cloud of black smoke in the
        basement which appears from the flue weighted venty thing
        (what is the technical term?) when this happens.

        I would suspect delayed ignition.

        My heating contractor has checked the transformer and
        electrodes, and replaced the nozzle.  He thinks the next
        thing to replace is the pump.  (Although he tested the
        transformer, he said that he would still suspect it after
        that.)

        An additional complication in this all is that the boiler is
        a 6 year old Weil-McLain into which a 15 year old Carlin
        burner has been installed (from the previous boiler that
        failed).  My present contractor, and the one I had before
        him, seems to blame a lot of my problems (and I've had a lot
        of firing problems over the years) on the Carlin burner. 
        They both said that a Carlin is the wrong burner for a
        Weil-McLain and that a Becket is the right one.  The
        implication is that I really can't expect it to work really
        well unless I replace the burner -- at $500 (is that the
        right price?).

        I need advice.  Should I replace the pump (at about $100, I
        would guess) first, and then possibly the transformer, or
        should I go right to a new burner?

        Is there anything else that could cause this symptom, either
        in the burner (what else is there besides the fan) or the
        boiler (e.g., the boiler controls)?

        Thanks,
        Bob

    
    
    Hummmmmm......  sounds like a late fireup.  What happens is in
    most cases,  the spark isnt good enought and there is a delay
    in igniton.  This gives raw oil fumes to fill the chambor and
    when it fires.....boom!  Black smoke out the seams of the pipe...
    
    Granger in Worc. might have what you need for about $40 if your
    local supplier dosnt.
    
    JD

re Note 47.40 by ELWOOD::DYMON:

>     Granger in Worc. might have what you need for about $40 if your
>     local supplier dosnt.
  
        But what is it that I need!

        Bob

    
      Regardless of what may or may not be wrong with your Carlin, I know
    that Carlins are more difficult than Beckets to get adjusted right.
    They seem to be more sensitive to everything. My Carlin was doing what
    yours is and I tried several things until I saw somebody selling a 1
    year old Becket for $90. I bout it, problems solved for good.
    
    				Kenny

    My oil fired FHA had the same problem. A service call fixed it by
    replacing the nozzle & resetting the electrodes to the 'proper' spacing 
    and alignment relative to the nozzle. Been fine for over a year now.
    
    ~jeff 

re Note 47.43 by SALEM::JGREEN:

>     My oil fired FHA had the same problem. A service call fixed it by
>     replacing the nozzle & resetting the electrodes to the 'proper' spacing 
>     and alignment relative to the nozzle. Been fine for over a year now.
  
        A close neighbor and good friend of mine (Joe Hamlin,
        co-owner of TES electrical contractors) had serviced heating
        equipment earlier in his career and he came over to look at
        the burner.

        An interesting thing he noticed was that the coil-spring
        high-voltage contacts on the ignition transformer weren't in
        line with the back end of the electrodes.  One of them would
        have been barely touching (although it is really hard to see
        this "in place" when the unit is closed up -- he measured
        offsets).

        He bent the contacts and/or the electrodes into alignment, put
        it back together, and all is working fine now.

        Bob

>        My heating contractor has checked the transformer and
>        electrodes, and replaced the nozzle.  He thinks the next
>        thing to replace is the pump.  (Although he tested the
>        transformer, he said that he would still suspect it after
>        that.)

	    One thing I suggest you get is a new repairman.  This person is
	not troubleshooting, he is shotgunning!  He obviously doesn't mind
	replacing parts, at YOUR expense, until (hopefully) the problem goes
	away.  

					Tim
	    

    Hi,
    
      I have a couple of questions regarding our heating system.
    We live in a ranch on a slab with forced hot air.  The first
    question I have is, is there a way to add a humidifier either
    to our furnace or in the air-ducts??  My second question is,
    our oil tank is in the ground and this spring we are planning
    to have it removed.  Instead of investing the money for a
    new tank, would another form of heating be better??  I'd
    really like to take out the furnace which sits in the middle of
    my house taking up a ton of room.  I'm just not sure what
    we'd have to do and how much it would cost us for either options??!!
    Suggestions and advice would be welcome.....
    
    thanks,
    
    renee 

    
    1. Humidifier....they sell one that is a stand a lone and that
    	plugs into the furnace.
    
    2. FHA is cheep.  It would have been nice if the slab had radient
    	heat.  Wood stove?  Solar.  FHW.  But they would require
    	some type of space similar to your furnace area now.   
    	Maybe a Gas wall unit.  Do you have city gas.  If not, a tank
    	would go out side...
    	Do you have any room for an addition outside the house such
    	as a "furnace room"?
    	Well, there is always electric baseboards.......
    	
    Just a few quick ideas.....
     JD

re Note 47.40 by ELWOOD::DYMON:

>     Hummmmmm......  sounds like a late fireup.  What happens is in
>     most cases,  the spark isnt good enought and there is a delay
>     in igniton.  This gives raw oil fumes to fill the chambor and
>     when it fires.....boom!  Black smoke out the seams of the pipe...
>     
>     Granger in Worc. might have what you need for about $40 if your
>     local supplier dosnt.

        Well, the transformer was changed for a "new" one (obviously
        not new, but new to me :-{) and the problem still persists
        the same as before.

        As I mentioned above, I have a friend who used to be in the
        business who is helping me since I'm reluctant to call back
        the burner man I was using (who charged $100 for parts and
        labor for that "new" part -- and it failed to fire at all
        within 24 hours)!

        My friend typically examines the nozzle/electrode assembly,
        puts it back together, and it runs for about a week.  At
        first it runs just fine and towards the end of that time I
        have occasional smoky, pulsing starts before it quits
        entirely.  This scenario has repeated about four times now.

        Even after the burner has stopped firing there is no evidence
        that there is anything wrong with the electrode assembly.  We
        have connected the electrodes to the transformer outside of
        the burner and it sparks normally -- although occasionally
        with a second or two delay.

        Should we just replace the electrodes and insulators?  What
        else could possibly deteriorate in about a week's time with
        no visible failure?

        Bob

re Note 47.42 by SOLVIT::CHACE:

>       Regardless of what may or may not be wrong with your Carlin, I know
>     that Carlins are more difficult than Beckets to get adjusted right.
>     They seem to be more sensitive to everything. My Carlin was doing what
>     yours is and I tried several things until I saw somebody selling a 1
>     year old Becket for $90. I bout it, problems solved for good.
  
        But what is there to adjust?  There is the fuel/air mix, the
        electrodes, and what?  And the Carlin visually looks like the
        same design as the Becket I saw.

        Bob

    RE: .- a few
    
    Sounds to me like there is a problem with the nozzle.  Have you changed
    it?  Or perhaps the filter within the pump is clogged a bit.  If the
    electrical portion of the system checks out OK, start looking at the
    oil supply lines.  I would check all of the filters and the pump
    itself.  It is possible that the pump is not strong enough to atomize
    the oil all of the time.
    
    Dan

    
    you dont have any water in your tank or a fuel jelling problem????
    
    $100!!!!  I hope he sent you a post card on his next vacation!..:)
    
    JD

    I second what Dan said.
    
    Replace the nozzle.  Check the specs on the position of the electrodes
    and make sure they are seated where they are suppose to be seated.
    This should be in the burners owners manual.
    
    You should replace filters and nozzle once a year.  They are cheap
    enough.  Also make sure the electrodes are clean and not built up
    with carbon.  My unit was failing and I corrected it by removing all
    the carbon with carb cleaner and a rag.
    
    Mark

The transformer may be the culprit.  After 6 years, I replaced mine form $56.00
myself. The symptoms were smokey fumes, delayed start, and ... explosions.

Good luck,

The transformer is the black square box on top of the burner.

Another unrelated problem I encountered was an oily smell and no heat. I could
also hear a whizzing noise when I manually restarted the burner. The problem
turned out to be a worn plastic connection tube between the fan/motor and oil 
pump. 25 cent piece.

    Well, it took over two years, but I finally ran the ductwork as I
    asked about in .30.  It was actually pretty easy and I did the job
    only with 7" round ductwork.  I didn't need to go to rectangular
    ductwork to exit the basement or anything.  It's all in and 
    insulated but...
    
    The airflow is quite weak.  Given that I took a 12' length of 7"
    duct and added another 15' onto that, I guess I shouldn't be 
    surprised.  The question now is: what is the simplest way to
    overcome this?  I've heard about in-line fans that can boost
    airflow .. any recommendations or prices?
    
    Thanks \ Erik

    
    A few thoughts:
    
    	Is this a straight duct... or are there bends (e.g. if there is
    	a 90� bend it counts as [something like] another 25 feet of 
    	straight run).
    
    	Regarding duct boosters, there are inline duct boosters for both
    	round and square ducts. They're often wired into the blower circuits 
    	so they kick in when the furnace blowers kick-in. Northern
    	Hydraulics catalogues have them... might even be at Home Depot.
    
    	Also, if you don't have any kind of return in the room and you keep
    	the doors into the main house closed, you can severely limit the
    	flow of air into the room.
    
    								- Mac

    It's virtually straight (except for the end where it makes the turn
    to the floor register).
    
    There is no return except the sliding door that leads to the porch.
    This is open now and will normally be so.
    

    
    ...then it sounds like you have two options:
    
    	1. Now that the air distribution has changed (due to the change
    	   in length of that run) adjust all the other dampers in the 
    	   house to see if the air distribution just needs balancing.
    	
    				or
    
    	2. Install a booster fan.
    
    	Regardless of which works, when the sliding door is closed the 
    	room will pressurize and reduce the airflow significantly... but
    	things should flow fine with the door open.
    
    								- Mac

    
    The register-mounted booster fans don't require installation and no
    additional wiring.  They have an advantage that you can easily switch 
    them to other locations.  HD sells one for $34 which has a built-in
    thermostat for heating or cooling.
    
    Colin
    

    A friend looked in his Northern Hydraulics catalog and did not see
    any fans of the type we've been discussing.  I called Home Depot in
    Nashua, NH and they sell ones for 6" diameter duct but not for 7".
    
    So I'm still looking for a supplier of an inline booster fan for a
    7" round duct.  Thanks again...

>    any fans of the type we've been discussing.  I called Home Depot in
>    Nashua, NH and they sell ones for 6" diameter duct but not for 7".
    
    The 6" ones would probably work. I have one that is simply a fan
    mount on a curved piece of sheet metal. You cut a square opening
    in the duct and then cover this opening with the fan assembly. It
    wouldn't be much trouble to bend the fan mounting plate slightly
    to conform to a 7" or even an 8" diameter duct.

    The one I noticed about the inline booster fans, is that they are
    somewhat noisy.

    Charly

	     This topic is close enough.  I read an article about variable
	speed blowers for FHA systems.  The idea is to run the blower at a
	higher speed when trying to heat up a zone and then run at a lower
	speed for maintaining temperature.  When running at the lower flow,
	the plenum will cool off slower so you'll be pumping heat longer.
	This is supposed be more efficient and room temperatures should be
	more stable.
	    What I'd like to do is install an after factory `automatic'
	blower speed control to my 5 year old Becket furnace.  My plan is
	to switch the blower speed between medium and slow with a relay
	tied into the thermostat.  When the thermostat calls for heat, the
	relay will be energized and toggle to the medium position.  When
	the thermostat stops calling for heat, the relay will default to
	the slow speed position.
	    Sounds pretty easy, but I'm not sure about the wiring in the
	furnace.  I measured 28 VAC to the thermostat wires.  Can I wire
	the relay between the return and ground?  Does anyone have sche-
	matics?

					Tim

    
    The wiring diagram should be pasted on the inside of one of the
    doors - probably the fan box.  Has been on most FHA furnaces that
    I've seen.
    
    C
    

	    The diagram for the blower motor is mounted on the casing. 
	The panel on the fan side is insulated; I'm pretty sure there
	is no shematic there.  But it makes sense that there should be
	one somewhere.  I'll have to look around.

					Tim 

    This looks to be about as close to my problem as I'm likely to get.

    I just moved an existing duct to a new tap (on top of the plenum), and
    added two more (one to the old tap on the back, one to a new tap on
    the top).  After getting the sheet metal work done, I realized that I
    was lacking two dampers;  I forged ahead anyway, expecting to fiddle
    with the controls on the grillework at the ends of the ducts.  They
    are set to be "mostly closed" (20% of full volume, perhaps).

    Turned on the furnace, and noted that the blower seemed to "pulse": 
    the noise it makes seems to periodically decrease, as if it's catching
    its breath, and then return to what seems to be the normal level.

    I tried running it for a short period without the panel over the
    blower, and during the test this pulsing was absent (and the blower
    pulled a fair bit of air in through the panel aperture).

    Would this indicate that I've badly screwed up the balance between
    ducts, or that the return (description below) is too small for the
    ductwork, or some other problem?

    How many minutes of run time does the system have left before the
    blower blows (up), or something else goes permanently OTL?

    RETURN -- it's 3�" x 12" �, with two 6"x10" grilles facing each other.
    	      It has one 90� bend before entering the bottom of the return
    	      plenum (tell me there's nothing wrong with that, please!)
    DUCTS  -- 6" round insulated flexible ductwork to the wall, feeding
    	      3�" x 10", terminating in a 6" x 10" boot & grille (same
    	      size as the return grilles)

    I'm in the process of having a two story house built. I like force hot air
    heat, but I'd also like to have two zones - one upstairs and one down.
    
    I talked to a heating contractor, and he tells me two zone FHA systems
    are not uncommon and work fine. This these systems, there is one burner
    (oil in my case) and two sets of ducks. Two baffle doors are used
    to allow heat into one set of ducks (down stairs), or other set
    (up stairs), or both.
    
    I haven't been able to find anyone that has such a system.
    Does anyone have a system like this?
    Has anyone heard of systems like this?
    
    Thanks for the input. Jim...
    

    
    I'd go for the plan that has the fewest ducks. They don't eat much, but
    they sure can poop up a storm.
    

	Precisely why I don't like FHA. There's nothing worse than a couple of
ducks passing air.

	Just so you know why you're about to get a bunch of smart-a**ed replies,
the word is ducts.  :-)

George
	
	

    Hmmm. Wise-quacks huh? &^}
    
    So I blue it. It happens. 8^]
    
    Come now, enough of this hot air - does anyone have experience with
    these systems?
    
    Jim...  

    I don't HAVE one of these systems, but have seen several; a house
    I was trying to purchase (before the builder went bankrupt!) had
    a two-zone forced hot air system.  The plenum off the furnace was
    split into two "feeds"; each feed had a motorized damper which
    was controlled by the furnace electronics (which in turn used the
    appropriate zone thermostat to decide when to actuate the furnace
    and open the damper).  The only downside (other than the additional
    equipment) was that the "parallel" supply ductwork took up somewhat
    more width than a single supply duct.
    
    I would have preferred such a system, but my builder wanted an
    exhorbitant amount of money to install one.  Having come from
    a house with (zoned) FHW, I liked the control multiple zones
    gave.

    I guess you guys don't have to do the dusting or put up 
    with allergies.  The worst kind of heating system to put
    into a home is FHA.  

    

>    I guess you guys don't have to do the dusting or put up 
>    with allergies.  The worst kind of heating system to put
>    into a home is FHA.  

	    I use my FHA system to create a reduced pollen zone inside my
	house.  A good filter and a little Endust goes a long way.  I like
	FHA and how quickly I can heat my house.  

					Tim 

>> I guess you guys don't have to do the dusting or put up 
>> with allergies.  The worst kind of heating system to put
>> into a home is FHA.  
> I use my FHA system to create a reduced pollen zone inside my
> house.  A good filter and a little Endust goes a long way.  I like
> FHA and how quickly I can heat my house.  

	I've lived in both houses heated by FHW and houses heated by FHA.
	I personally prefer FHW.  I find FHA drafty (wind-chill caused
	by the air being moved), and find it noisier than FHW.  I
	also find FHW also quickly heats the living area (if anyone
	finds otherwise they either don't have enough baseboard, or
	undersized boiler).

	The major disadvantage of FHW (IMHO) is that traditional FHW
	systems need hog all that wall space with baseboard.

	BTW, this sub-discussion already has a topic of it's own ....

    49  TRACTR::DOWNS        22-JAN-1986    22  WHAT KIND? FHW vs FHA

    
.6>	    I use my FHA system to create a reduced pollen zone inside my
.6>	house.  A good filter and a little Endust goes a long way.
    
    What do you consider a good filter? And what do you do with the Endust?
    

    The controversy of FHA verse FHW is a long one  - and is covered in
    other notes.
    
    However, the question of multiple FHA zones is the subject of this
    note.
    
    I take it from the lack of response, that this is an uncommon
    configuration (although someone did email me a note that explained
    his *5* zone system!)?
    
    Jim...
    

>    I take it from the lack of response, that this is an uncommon
>    configuration (although someone did email me a note that explained

    I think that would be an erroneous conclusion, based more on the
    way you phrased the question than the facts.
    
    I've never seen a multi-story FHA heated home with WITHOUT multiple 
    zones. A split level home we owned had a 2 zone FHA system as did all the
    other homes in the development.

    --Steve

    Every FHA house in my neighborhood that I've been in has multi-zone
    (typically 2 or 3) forced-air systems. 
    
    ...tom

    Interesting, thanks for the input. If I could ask .11, do these
    homes have a single burner with two sets of ducts or two separate
    burners? Where abouts is your neighborhood - Boston area? Other?
    
    The builder I am working with is small - he builds 1 to 3 houses
    at a time. He says he hasn't used single burner, two zoned FHA systems
    '...in decades. They don't work'. He most often uses FHA, and
    in the couple of houses he most recently built (that I went to see)
    they were two story (colonial), ~2400 sq foot structures that had single
    zoned FHA heat. The owners did not complain about this...
    
    I prefer FHA, but am concerned about difficult to manage heat
    distribution in a two story house with one zone. However I don't want
    to go to the expense of putting a second oil burner in the basement.
    
    A single oil burner, with two sets of ducts appropriately controlled
    seems to be a reasonable solution to me, but not to my
    builder. That is why I am seeking input from folks that have such a system.
    
    Thanks, jim...                    
    

    This is the Amherst, MA area ("Amherst Woods"); they are all
    single-burner, multi-zone; typically with A/C as well. Mostly
    oil-fired, some gas-fired condensing furnaces.
    
    They have a moderately complex controller (more than just the typical
    box of relays); it might be that the reason "they don't work" is that
    the controls are wrong.
    
    ...tom

    I have a two story colonial, LP FHA, one zone.  Brookline, NH.
    Built in 1995.
    
    ed

    A more common system in bigger houses uses a furnace for each zone -
    one in the basement, one in the attic. It cuts the ducting way down,
    gives some redundancy in case one fails, but costs a bit more to put
    in due to the dual furnace.
    
    Chris
    

I used to have a 2400 ft� single-level ranch house (that's right - no
basement, no upstairs).  It had two 100K BTU gas FHA furnaces in the crawl
space, two independent sets of ductwork, and two thermostats.  The house
was moderately uncomfortable, due to drafts, poor installation, and poor
ducts.

I'm currently in a 3800 ft� ranch with a fully finished basement.  The main
part of the house, 3400 ft� (1/2 basement) is heated by a single 137K BTU
gas FHA furnace.  I spent some time adjusting the air registers to get the
desired heat balance, but now in the winter it is the most comfortable house
I have ever lived in.  The summer is a different issue - thanks to lots of
glass and a cathederal ceiling, the summer heat build up can be quite
intense.  I've had several contractors out to quote an A/C system, and all
are quoting single-zone systems.  When I asked about multi-zone, they
mentioned the problems with sizing a furnace and A/C that can work well with
a 2-to-1 ratio of ductwork and registers (when both zones are on, you're
trying to push air to the whole house, and need a certain blower size/BTU
rating.  When one zone turns off, you are suddenly trying to push that same
amount of air through only half as many registers).

This is in Colorado Springs, BTW.

I'm the one referred to earlier with a 5 zone FHA system...

Its one burner, one furnace. Two of the zones are by dampers
that are in the furnace room itself. The other three zones
are via remote dampers: the wires controlling the dampers are
routed next to the ductwork. The electronics are a bit more
complex, but once setup and working, have had no problems.
Setup was a bit tricky though, and took a bit more than
usual to debug it.

Someone mentioned the noise of FHA vs FHW.... this depends
on the ductwork used. I have metal plenums in the basement;
but the ductwork thru walls and up to rooms are fibreboard,
and thus the system is extremely quiet. The only noisy part
is the airflow at my single grate return duct.

There is an electrostatic filter that is great during the
pollen seasons. Never have to buy/replace the filter... just
slide out the electrostatic filter and spray with the
garden hose. Only additional step is to hook up a wire from
the filter to a control box (it has some air flow sensor poking
into the return duct to sense when to turn on/off the
filter).

An air-to-air heat exchanger is the last element of the system...

    5 zones to heat but only one return?
    
    ed

    re: 5 zones to heat, one return
    
    Prior to the addition, the house was a superinsulated
    1-zone system. All interior doors had an extra 3/4" or so
    gap between the door bottom and the floor to help air
    circulation. There are 2 1-st to 2nd floor stairways
    that also helps. The return duct is centralized; actually
    it opens up on two sides of a wall between kitchen and dining
    room. System seemed to work just fine, thank you... house
    heated with 600 gallons per year, including hot water.
    
    The addition posed new heating concerns, so the existing
    system was broken into zones with dampers, and new ducts
    added for the new zones. It was deemed unnessary to add
    ductwork for the return. Again, system seems to work
    just fine as is. Not sure yet what my yearly tally's will
    be for oil... but I think its jumped to in the 800 gal range.
    The main problem with the addition was the adding of
    all the additional duct outlets... the fan would not be
    able to supply them; thus dividing it into zones made
    it more likely the fan would be supplying only a subset
    of the system at any one time.
    

    Jim,
    
    I just finished building a two story 36x28 colonial and utilized a
    newer type of heating system called "Hydro Air" .  Basically, the 
    system is a combination of a hot water and forced hot air system.  
    The boiler feeds hot water to an air handler/blower which contains a
    fan and a series of coils/fins.  The air handler/blower sends air across 
    the coils/fins and out through the duct work in the house. The system is 
    two zones, requiring an additional air handler/blower in the attic. 
    The heat from the system is not as dry as a regular FHA system, and
    coupled with a good electrostatic filter is not very dusty at all.  I
    put the system in after recommendations from friends that had utilized 
    this system and have had good success with it and have been very
    pleased with its performance.  
    
    Charlie R

    Very interesting. This would seem to make multiple zone forced
    hot air very easy. Although, if someone latter wanted to put in
    AC, it might be a bit difficult...
    
    What part of the world are you in? If you don't mind me asking,
    do you know how much more expensive this type of system was
    then a conventional, one zone system?
    
    THanks for your input. Cheers, Jim...

Does anyone have any recent experience with the atomizing humidifier that Home
Depot currently sells?  I have a gas fired FHA system to which I need to add a
humidifier, but I am agognizing over which type to use.  

I like the idea of the atomizing unit because off all the advantages mentioned
in previous relpies. However, I certainly do not want water dripping back into
the furnance.  

The particular model that I saw does not use a humidistat to call atomizer,
rather the atomizer detects that the furnace/fan is on by the tempature change
in the duct.

Chris

    I didn't see a "duct" note, so I thought I'd try here.  While I have a
    dehumidifier in my basement, sometimes there is still a slight musty
    smell down there and it seems like the smell is coming up through the
    heating vents into the rest of house.  Last fall I had the ducts
    cleaned, so I can't believe there's anything in them that could be
    causing the smell.  A friend of mine has a really musty smell in his
    basement, but I've never noticed it in the rest of his house.  Is
    something messed up with my ducts?  I only notice it in some rooms
    (3-bedroom ranch), so I can't figure it out.  
    
    Any suggestions greatly appreciated!  
    
    - Cindy

    				DUCT TAPE !!!
    
    	If you have any leaks in the duct work, it could be drawing the
    musty smell in through the ducts. The best way to eliminate this is to
    isolate and eliminate the source of the musty smell in the basement,
    if possible. 
    
    	You can also check for leaks and apply duct tape to any seams that
    might be leaking. Oh my god, someone may actually wind up using duct
    tape for its intended purpose ;-)
    	
    	Ray
    
    Duct tape is like the force. It has a dark side, a light side, and it
    binds the universe together.
    	
    		By unknown author

    
    Cindy,
    	You mention that you had your air ducts cleaned.  I really need
    to have mine done but don't know who to call or how much I should pay.
    Can you write to me (e-mail) and let me know some more info?
    					Thanks  Sue

    re: -2, thanks for the duct tape suggestion, I'll look at them tonight. 
    The finished part of the basement smells okay, it's the unfinished side
    that smells kind of musty - like many basements!  One thing that I
    noticed is the filter for the furnace just slides in, so it seems like
    it's possible for the basement air to get pulled through the furnace. 
    Is this normal?  The furnace is just a few years old - the old one had
    the filter in drawer that had to be opened.
    
    re: -1
    I had a company in Marlboro clean the ducts - I think the name was
    Airtek or Cleantek, but I'm not positive.  I can look for the receipt when
    I get home.  The cost was $300 for a 3-bedroom ranch w/finished basement.
    It was amazing how much dust and other things (toys, nails, wood pieces)
    were in the ducts.
    
    

    Anyone know how to test the igniter output on a FHA furnace. My
    electronic ignition bit the dust last night. I checked the electrode
    and there doesn't appear to be a visible problem there. Cleaned up the
    surfaces but still no spark. The only other possible problem there that
    I can think of is a crack in the ceramic holder for the electrode. I
    didn't notice any visible cracks though. Before I replace the igniter
    module itself I'd like to verify that it is in fact dead. The igniter
    module also controls the gas valve, heat senser, etc. That all works as
    I can light the thing with a match and it works like a champ!
    
	Steve.

    RE: -.1 
    
    Check the xformer input/output if you can.  To create the spark across
    the electrode gap the transformer must deliver several (5-10) thousand 
    volts.
    
    Roger
    
    

    I took a chance and dropped $80 on a new ignition control module. 5
    minutes to install... click click click poof, we're back in business.