Conference 7.286::home_work

I helped a neighbor put up such a fence this fall.  You can buy the poles
and panels from a fence supplier (neighbor got his from American Fence).
I don't know whether pressure-treated fences are available but I suspect
that cedar fencing would be just as good or better than pressure-treated
pine.  

The only hard part was digging the holes.  We rented a gasoline post-hole
digger.  It was a nice machine compared to the hand-powered variety but it
had a nasty tendency to drill itself into the ground rather than auguring
the dirt out of the hole.  Since you can't reverse the digger, you've got
to yank it out of the ground when this happens.

And then there are rocks.  It was very fortunate that my neighbor had a
Hilti, which can be used as a small electric jackhammer, else we might
still be trying to drag 24-inch rocks out of an 8-inch-wide hole.  Renting
a Hilti when you rent the post-hole digger is highly recommended.

JP

There are two grades (at least) of "pressure-treated" wood around.  One
of them really IS pressure-treated, and the treatment goes all the way
through (as you can see if you cut through one).  The other stuff seems
to go by the name "pressure-treated" but apparently is only dip-treated.
If you cut one of those posts, you can see that the treatment goes in
only about 1/8".  Get the good stuff.  Compared to the work involved in
digging the holes, especially in this soil, the cost of the posts is
trivial.
In any case, the critical point to treat is at ground level.  Wood won't
rot if it stays wet, or if it stays dry, but the in-between moist condition
that exists at ground level really does it in.

Steve

A timely note indeed... we had a stockade fence replaced last fall,
and I've been wondering what to do with it next. I see a lot of them
around that appear to have been left unfinished, but I'm not confident
that that's a good idea. Are they generally supposed to be finished,
or not? Or is it just personal preference? 

thx,
-b

Can someone help me out with a gate hinge/fence problem?  This is what
I'm up against.  I have a 6' high stockade fence with round fence posts.
I'm putting a gate in, which is built on a frame of 4x4's.  Now the gate
is very sturdy and of considerable weight.  I'd like to be able to open
the gate as fully as possible.  I've seen some fences with strap type
hinges, but the complaints I'm hearing is that they loosen.  A very solid
hinge I've seen is a hook and eye type set up shown below:

              +--+            +--+
   -----------|  |            |  |-------------
              |  |_|        O-|  |
     Fence    |  |            |  |   Gate
              |  |_|        O-|  |
   ___________|  |            |  |_____________

The problem here is that the gate will not open very far before the post
of the gate makes contact with the post of the fence.  An alternative is
to offset the Hooks and Eyes which would offset the gate away from the
center line of the fence.  This is what I probably will do if necessary.
Could the loosening of the strap hinges just mean they need to be bolted
completely through the posts and not just screwed into the wood?

Does anyone have a solid gate that opens wide or suggestions?

Trying to avoid a mistake beforehand,       Steve
    

    I just bought a chain link fence, 4ft, aluminized (25 year guar!).
    The store wanted $200 to install it.  At first I said NO WAY, I'll
    DIM (do it MYself).  Well, a gas powered post hole digger goes for
    $45 a day.  I will also need cement for 16 posts (the fence is 125
    feet long) and a new hacksaw (let's say $30 for both items).  I
    am borrowing a hand worked post hold digger.  I have levels and
    chalk lines..
    
    Questions
    1) Am I leaving anything out that I need??  What is the cost of
    these additional items??
    
    2) How many days will it take me to dig the 16 holes??  Obviously
    this depends on the makeup of the ground.  One area is pretty rooted
    (pine trees).  Should I plan on renting for 1 or 2 or 3 days??
    
    3) How hard is it to install a fence??
    
    4) Am I better off hiring them to do it, with there neat little
    drill truck and all the right equipment??
    
    5) Does anyone know of an installer that will do this for less than
    $200??
    
    Thanks,
    jjeff
    

    Suggest you also get a block and tackle or come-along to stretch
    the fence tightly when putting it up.  The come-along is nice
    because you can tighten the fence and it will stay put without
    you having to hold it.  They are rentable, and you'd only need
    the lightest, smallest variety to stretch a fence - should be
    pretty cheap.
    
    Good luck on digging the holes - that's frequently the biggest 
    hassle in     this part of the country (I assume you are in New 
    England).  If you're lucky you live on a glacial sandpile.
    
    Steve

I consider myself a DIY expert on fencing after having installed 550 feet
of vinly coated steel fabric and 64 6' X 7" diameter cedar posts.  

Holes:  I investigated power diggers etc. and found that for my soil, heavy
        with rocks a hand post hole digger and railroad bar was really the
        only way to go.  If the soil is soft or sandy without rocks digging
	a hole can go very quickly (a couple of minutes).  I was digging
	two feet down for my 6 foot cedar poles.  If it has rocks or other
	obstructions it could me MUCH longer.  Power diggers don't work
	well with obstructions which cannot be easily cut through.

Since you have already bought the fabric this may be too late but I bought
vinly coated, galvanized steel in a dark brown color.  With cedar posts the
fence blends well into the landscape and for the most part you cannot even
see the fence unless you are close to it.  (the nature of dark brown, it blends
right into the background)

You did not mention what kind of poles so I assume you are using steel pipe.
If so you probably do not need to go nearly as deep and therefore your hole
time should be much less.

As for pulling I did not get super stretch, just some burly friends helping
to pull and fence nails into the cedar posts.

The hardest part is definitely the holes.  Once that is done everything else
is a snap.  Everything then really depends upon what kind of soil you have.
This will dictate what kind of job the holes will be.  After doing 64 I guess
I would figure 16 should not be unreasonable no matter how bad the soil.

-peter

    I put in 90ft. of 5ft. high chain length a couple of years ago.
    And I agree that digging the holes is the worst part. You should
    make sure that the posts run in a straight line, mine were off a
    little and it shows. Also I used a plastic bag in each hole and
    poured the cement into it, This keeps the water from being absorbed
    into the ground and the cement will cure better. As far as tools
    go I think you have everything covered. To tighten mine I used a
    come-a-long, and it worked out fine.... Good Luck...
    
    				Steve
    

    
    I once installed about 100 ft. of stockade fence.  The ground was
    loaded with rocks and even a power auger couldn't get through it!
    To be honest, if I had to do it over again, I would probably pay
    the $200.
    
    BTW- Does anyone know a supplier that carries basket weave or board-
    and-board fences?  I am planning on getting one next spring.
    
    
    Denis
    

    re .4
    
    Webber Lumber was advertising Basket Weave fencing in 6 or 8 foot
    sections about a week ago. Have you considered making your own ?
    
    I seem to recall seeing some plans in one of the "current"
    DIY type books (I've read 3, skimmed another 100 or so 
    looking for some other things in the past 4 months, so I don't
    remember where.)
    
    Bob
    

    
    RE .5
    
    If you come across the article on build-it-yourself basket weave
    or board-and-board fences, could you fill us in on where you saw
    it?   Sounds like it may be a real money saver.
    
    Thanks,
    Denis
    

For those looking for fence supplies I recommend W.S. Spaulding Co
in Auburn.  They are a fencing wholesaler (when I bought my fence
material) and now they sell retail as well.  They do no do installations,
just sell the stuff.  Their prices (when I bought wholesale) were very
good and the guys there were very helpful.  They have the facilities
to fabricate gates etc. which is also nice.

-peter

    re: .6
    
    Auburn (where ??) as in (what state ????) .... please :^)   ????
    
    Bob
    

W.S. Spaulding is in Auburn Ma.  It can be gotten to very easily off the
I290 exit which is used to go to the Auburn Mall (when heading West out
of Worcester).

If anyone needs detailed directions you can ask me or call Spaulding.
BTW, Spaulding sells all different types of fencing material so you have
the opportunity to see, compare prices etc. right there.

-peter

    Installing metal posts made easy: Use a hand post hole digger and
    go down 12" in firm soil or 18" in soft soil, place your metal post
    in the center keeping the post spaceing even. Then get a steel end
    cap that's big enough to fit over the end of the steel post, use
    a 12# or heavier sledge and slowly drive the metal post into the
    ground. For a 4' out of the groung post you should burry it 20"
    minimum. Then just fill the dug hole  with cement, using a string
    pulled thight from the first to the last post on a straight run
    mark the post at the correct hight (fence hight,end caps,etc.)
    and cut using a steel pipe cutter. I hope this helps.  

    Its over!!!  And it really wasn't that bad.  
    
    Post holes - The soil was very sandy and very easy to dig.  I only
    had 1 hole that was hard, it was right at the base of a pine tree.
    LOTS of roots.
    
    Installing the posts - .10 is just like the instructions.  The
    only exception is...  Don't dig your line posts until after your
    end posts are installed and the line is strung.  I had to make a
    number of holes a little larger becuase they were not exactly in
    line with the terminal posts.
    
    With a borrowed come-along, installing the fabric was also very
    easy.  Do not forget to pull against the tension bar with the 
    come-along.  I bent a strand of fence because I forgot that.  Luckily,
    chain link is easy to weave and I replaced the strand.
    
    The only other comment I have is, no matter how flat an area looks,
    decide before hand if you want to follow the contour of the land
    or make it a level fence.  I ended up with some gaps of 3-5 inches
    which I had not planned on.
                                                   
    Oh yea, one other thing.  Buy enough cement the first time.  I found
    myself 1 bag short of finishing the job one night.  So I had to
    clean everything and put it all away until the next night.  Just
    a hassle.
    
    All in all, it was well worth the $200 I saved.
    Thanks for your help...
    
    jeff
    

    I'm going to be putting up approximately 150 yards of fence and
    I was wondering if anyone out there has heard of a power, post
    hole digger.  Is there any place that rents a machine that can
    be used by your average do-it-yourselfer, to dig the holes. 
      I've used the old maunual post hole diggers but that would
    take me forever.  I do want to keep the cost down if possible.
    Anyone have any ideas?
    
                           Dave S.
    

                Most of the rental places such as Taylor would have that
        item for rent. Look in the Yellow Pages under Rentals?
                
                        /s/     Bob

Do it!  

I put in a fence of about that length last year.  I measured before and had
stakes in place.  With the power digger I did the whole thing in no time
flat (an hour or so!).  Setting hights, etc took much longer but it was 
a tremendous help.  

By the way, this worked so well that when I had a bunch of bushes to put in
I rented it again, this time with a bigger auger.  It worked marvelously (until
I got close to a tree and  hit huge roots).

Taylor Rental had it.  There are lots of different kinds.  The one I had was
in two pieces: a motor and the drive unit.  Some come in one piece.  Some
take two people.  

Good luck.

--ed/ 

    THANKS FOR THE QUICK RESPONSE.  I'M GOING TO CALL AROUND AND GET
    SOME PRICES.  I'M DEFINATELY GOING TO GO WITH THE POWER AUGER.
    
                                       THANKS AGAIN,
                                                      DAVE
    

    	I vote for the manual post hole digger.  If you have few
    obstructions nearby and a sandy soil the manual one is very fast
    and only cost five bucks a day at Taylor rental.  Both U-Haul and
    Taylor had the manual and power augers when I checked.  I liked
    the manual one a "hole" lot.
    
    						Jorge'

    I just did 125' of chain link.  It took me less than 2 hours to
    dig 16 holes BY MANUAL digger.  Here is why I used a manual post
    hole digger.
    
    1. Hammar Hardware wanted $45/day for the power auger.
    
    2. If using a power auger, roots and small to medium rocks will stop the 
    auger.  At this point, you need to use a manual digger anyways.
    If there are few obstructions (like in my lawn) the auger will work
    nicely, but, SO WILL THE MANUAL one.
    
    3. I actually dug the holes in 2 or 3 sessions.  There was no need
    to rush as I wasn't paying by the day for the manual digger.
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    
    BTW - you might want to ask the fence company what they think. 
    The company I worked with (Standard Fence in Manchester, NH) also
    suggested using a manual digger.
    

    THANKS FOR THE INPUT.  I THINK I'LL BUY A MANUAL POST HOLE DIGGER
    BECAUSE I'LL BE DOING MORE DIGGING LATER ON.  I'LL TRY THE MANUAL
    ONE FIRST AND IF IT I'M NOT GETTING ANYWHERE FAST, THEN I'LL GO
    FOR A POWER AUGER RENTAL.  I'D LIKE TO GET MY 150 YARDS OF FENCE
    UP IN ONE WEEKEND.  I'LL LET YOU KNOW HOW IT GOES.
    
                                             THANKS AGAIN,
                                                               DAVE
    

    Boy, the dirt must be soft back east huh...
    
    I bought a manual one and start going at it. After a short while
    of doing that I took it to the rental place and gave it to them
    for the rental of a POWER AUGER.
    (I have alot of rocks and clay in the soil) 
    
    I power auger is the way to go, takes no time at all. The only problem
    in soft soil is getting it to stop before reaching China.
                   
    Have fun,                         Mark_here_in_the_rockies...
    

$45 for a power auger?  are we talking about the same thing?  I rented one
about 5 years ago and I can't believe I would have paid more than $15-$20.

Anyhow, I used a 12 inch auger to dig holes for sona tubes and to dig only 10
holes took a FULL day because of rocks and such.  however, I'll bet it would
have taken a full week any other way.  even in this rock environment the auger
would loosen things up enough to shovel out the loose stuff (of course a 12 inch
hole has enough room to get a shovel into it).

I would suspect that when digging postholes one would use perhaps a 6 inch auger
which might be less likely to bump into as many rocks.

My vote would be to rent an auger for a day and dig only those holes that can be
done quickly.  Use the rest of the day to do the harder ones and based on what's
left (if anything), re-rent the auger for another day or go the manual route.

-mark

     You out there that knows about stuff like that,I need some info
    about putting up a fence.Ist: I want to put an eighty foot stock
    ade fence,but I have one side of the house fenced 95%,and the other
    5% open.My problem is there is an empty lot behind the house,so
    I don't really know where my land stops.
    Q._ Do I need a Surveyor,and how much will be the cost?
    I'm a handy person can work on almost anything,is there away to
    do it without a surveyor.
    About the fence I went some place they ask me $60.00 a section
    6x8,and the post $13.00 each,I also called some fence company
    they ask me about $900 to $1000.00 for the 80ft.I live in R.I.
    anyone knows of a place I can buy fence cheaper
    	need info.!!!!!!!!!!!!
    thankx !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    

    YOU HAD BETTER CHECK INTO ZONING REGULATIONS BEFORE PUTTING IN AN
    8 FT FENCE.  THERE ARE SOME CITIES THAT REQUIRE YOU TO GET A VARIANCE.
    
    IT IS MY OPINION THAT YOU WOULD USE A SURVEYOR TO MAKE SURE THAT
    THE FENCE IS ON YOUR LAND.  IF NOT ON YOUR LAND, 
    
    1.  YOUR NEIGHBOR WHO OWNS THE FIELD COULD BECOME VERY ANGRY AND
        MAKE YOU REMOVE IT.
    
    2.  YOUR NEIGHBOR COULD THINK YOU HAVE BEEN VERY NICE AND GIVEN
        HIM/HER A NICE FENCE.
    
    THIS COULD RESULT IN COURT ACTION.
    
    
    JUDIE
    
    

    Nashua, for instance, considers an 8 ft. high fence to be illegal
    without a variance.  6 ft. high is the normal limit.  Getting a
    variance in Nashua for ANYTHING can be exceptionally difficult
    unless your name is STABILE, etc.

< Note 400.0 by COGITO::GILLES >
                       -< how do you do this !!!!!!!!! >-
  There's a fence Co. in Worcester on Rt20 (1.5 mi east of Rt 146)
thats advertising each section (6x8) for $26 or 27 each). I assume
its made of pine where your quote ($60) sounds like its made of 
cedar. 
    About the fence I went some place they ask me $60.00 a section
    6x8,and the post $13.00 each,I also called some fence company
    they ask me about $900 to $1000.00 for the 80ft.I live in R.I.
    anyone knows of a place I can buy fence cheaper
    	need info.!!!!!!!!!!!!
    thankx !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    

Are there any "Fence Experts" out there?

I am thinking about building a board fence between my yard and my neighbor's.
It will be 8' tall and 110' long with the posts set 4' into the soil.
                                                                     
I have two questions:                                                
                                                                     
1. How to secure the posts and is one way more prone to frost heaves?
                                                                     
  From the various books on the subject, it appears that there are two ways
  of setting the posts: TAMPED EARTH and CONCRETE.                     
                                                                     
   The advantages of tamped earth are cost and (I've read) less problems
   with frost heaves. 
                    
   The advantages of concrete are strength and durability.
                    
Q: Anybody care to comment on tamped earth vs concrete? or on frost heaving?
                    

2. How to determine the number of rails (horizontal framing members) required.
                                                                    
   I want to build a "good neighbor" fence -- which simply means that it
   looks good from either side.  I could do this with a "vertical board and
   board" fence or by setting the vertical boards in a channel in the frame.
  
    BOARD AND BOARD viewed from above:
  
                 ---   ---   ---   ---  <-
      rails  >   =====================    | 1x6 pine vertical boards
                    ---   ---   ---     <-   
           
Q: On a 8' high fence, would just two rails (top and bottom) be sufficient
   support in the "channel in the frame" approach?  
                                                    
   If two are not enough (my guess), the "channels in the frame" approach
   is out!                                          
   I could run three rails with the board and board style, and/or not have
   the bottom rail at the very bottom of the fence. 
                                                    
Any comments gladly accepted.                       
VCS
    

Why do you want an 8 foot fence???  I can't concieve of any 8 foot fence
being 'neighborly'...

Jim.

    I want an 8 foot high fence to hide my nighbors' $%^&* ##$%^ mess.
    He is a general contractor and has recently taken to storing all
    of his gear and parking various trucks in his back yard. He even
    plowed a "driveway" across his lawn this winter so his workers could
    park in his back yard. This may be legal, but it is ugly as heck, so 
    I want a TALL fence.     
                                                                  
    Neighborly is a relative term -- it just means I don't want the
    fence to look ugly from either my yard or his.

    From the sounds of it, ugly is a relative term too.  Your
    neighbor probably wouldn't consider anything ugly from the sound
    of it.  I've got tall shrubs between my house and my neighbor (previous
    owner planted them).  They don't require much care but do take a
    while to get to the desired height.  Good luck...

      Unless you put in a footing that is twice the diameter of the
    post and below the frost-line, you will have frost acting on the
    fence. I don't think that it's necessary to have a fence frost-proof.
    If it moves with the ground in the winter who's going to know (or
    care). I've put in and helped put in a lot of fences, and I've not
    heard of frost heave problems.
    
    					Kenny

    And check with the town first, some do not allow 8' fences....

It might also be 'neighborly' to stroll over to your neighbor's and have
a chat on the subject of fencebuilding, and reasons for it...

Jim.

    Back to the questions in .0
    
1.  Anybody want to comment on securing posts with concrete vs tamped
    earth

2.  Anybody have any thoughts on the number of rails needed for an 8'
    board fence?
    

    My neighbor's father has 40 years in the fence business. He puts
    steel posts in concrete and wooden posts tamped earth. He says that
    the steel/concrete combination is best, but doesn't use concrete
    around wooden posts because they tend to rot faster from the
    moisture held within the concrete. He rarely puts up 8 ft fences
    because most towns have a 6 ft limit, and when he does a 6 ft
    stockade fence, the posts only need to be set 2 ft deep. Cross bar
    design is really your choice ie; 2 6x6 crossbars would certainly
    do the trick. I personally would go with 3 crossbars of 2x3 or
    2x4 stock. If you go with wooden posts, make sure their pressure
    treated. I watch one of my neighbors replace some of his untreated
    posts every year. They rot right at ground level.
    

    
    okay, so I'm a new home-owner...What the heck is a come-a-long...I
    plan on putting in a kennel off of my garage and it would probably
    help to know what it is I'll be looking for....Makes sense to me!

	To amplify Paul's succinct description:

	You'll recognize a come-along when you see a curious little
	gadget comprising a sort of small steel beam forming a bracket
	containing a spool of cable in the middle, a hook attached to
	one end of the bracket, and a handle jutting to the side and
	attached to the spool.

	Another hook is attached to the cable, which of course can be
	unwound from the spool.  The handle is a lever rigged with
	ratchets so you can crank the spool, drawing the cable in.
	You can rig the cable as a single or as a double strand,
	typically allowing a claimed drawing force of either one ton
	or two tons.  Most reasonable inanimate objects  -- if you'll
	excuse that oxymoron  --  will "come along" when attached to
	a come-along.

	One neat feature is the ratchets I mentioned: they afford
	easy opportunity for squishing the ends of your fingers.
	I always feel nervous about the straining cable: I know it's
	planning to snap and nick some portion of my elegant anatomy.
	Treat the device with respect; like all inanimate objects, it
	dislikes the company of people who make mistakes.

	Regards, Robert.

If you go with wood then concrete is definitely a no no.  As indicated in
the previous rely concrete actually accelerate rot by ccausing moisture to 
collect at the wood concrete boundary.  This is why tamped earths used.
Additionally the need for good drainage is paramount - you don't want pockets
at the poles where water could collect.

As for pole selection don't forget cedar as a choice.  It has very good
natural qualities for protection agains rot and if installed properly
cedar posts can last many many years.  Additionally natural aging allows
cedar to blend into the environment quite nicely.

-peter

    If you are prone to having strong winds in your area USE concrete.
    Here in Cx0 we get 100+ mph winds every spring and after it is over
    wooden fences are laying down everywhere all of them without concrete
    around the post. My parents fence is 15 years old and we havent
    even replaced a post(secured in concrete) the next door neighbor
    has to repair just about every time the wind blows hard.
    The stagered picket design will help some but cuts privacy
    to some degree. I think the concrete really adds to the life of
    the fence as the posts dont rot quite as fast.
    Also if you have the choice use fir posts they outlive redwood or
    cedar by a longshot and are much stronger to wind stress,ect..
    
    -j
    

I'M NEW AT THIS AS FAR AS ASKING QUESTION AND ANS.WOULD SOMEONE TELL
    ME WHAT AN AUGER IS? WE ARE DOING OUR BACKYARD      AND COULD
    USE          SOME INFO. I'M ON STRATA::POWERS
    
    
    
    
    
                                                                   
        THX    
                                                                   
                                                                   
                   WOULD SOMEONE TEEL 

    An auger looks like a gigantic corkscrew.  You may have seen
    big augers along with telephone pole installation crews.  The
    basic idea is to drill a hole into the ground.
    
    -al

    
    I just rented a auger this past weekend. The kind I rented was for
    a one man operation. It worked great. I would recommend highly.
    To dig 6 holes took me 1/2 hour. They have augers designed for 2
    men. Since I didn't have anyone to help I got the one man. 
    
    It cost me $40per day. And they delivered it.
    Got it from West Side rental in Manchester NH.
    
    Mike

    I rented a post hole digger this past weekend.  It's one of those
    auger types mounted in a rectangular frame, whice uses a steering
    wheel type control to lower the auger to the ground.  Anyways, my
    land has LOTS of rocks, ranging in size from 2 inches to 10 - 12
    inches.  As a result, the auger wouldn't get more then 4 or 5 inches
    into the ground before hitting a rock and stopping dead.  It took
    most of the day to do one hole!
    
    So today I called several contractors and fence companies to do
    the digging.  Most of them are very busy and don't want to be 
    bothered with a "little" job of digging 60 post holes.
    
    Would anyone in the Westminster area know of any farmers who could
    do this for a reasonable fee?  I know that many farmers have auger
    attachments for there tractors that are probably powerfull enough
    to do the job.  I'm sure they would like to put this equipment to
    work and make some money. 
    
    Any leads will be greatly appreciated!
    
    Regards,
    Denis

I had some fencing done by Carl Winchester he charges $20
a hole, your cost may be cheaper since my costs included 
putting the fence up. He can be reached at Somerville
Lumber, Westboro 366-8700 just ask for him. Or leave a 
message at his home, the number is 234-5508. He digs as 
a side job he has a couple of workers and seem to handle 
rocks ok.

    Ken Hamilton who works for DEC in MRO and lives in Ashburnham has
    a small tractor with a post hole digger. 

    While the sound of a tractor with post hole digger is attractive,
    they have much of the same problems digging holes with large 8"+
    rocks, and tend to eat shear pins like they were candy... Now i'm
    not saying it can't be done, but sometimes good old fashioned manual
    labor is the only way to get the job done.
    
    Fra 

I am afraid .3 is right.  If you have lots of rocks the only way to deal
with it is to manually dig the holes with a post hole digger and pry the
offending rocks out.  I had the same problem (65 fence holes and lots of
rocks)  There is no easy way out and augers won't really help.

-peter

    
    
    	I have dug many holes in my past and an old timer let me use
    his special tool for digging holes. I don't know what it's called
    but its made of steel and about 5 feet long with a 3 foot long square
    shaft on the end with a point. It weighs about 50 pounds and you
    lift it up and slam it into the hole. This action loosens the dirt
    enough to shovel it out easly. I have run into bolders that are
    very large but are no match for this tool.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    RE .3  I've tried digging these holes manually.  It took about 6
    hours to dig ONE hole.  Also, I already have the digging bar described
    in .5, which did help somewhat.  I'm afraid I don't have the 2 months
    it would take to dig all these holes with a shovel and digging bar.
    
    Maybe a backhoe?
    
    Thanks for the replies,
    Denis
    	
    
    	

I kept waiting for someone to suggest this, but when I saw "backhoe" 
mentioned, I figured it was time to butt in.

I had a chainlink fence installed about three years ago, and my yard
happened to be just about solid rock after you got down six inches or
so (ain't New England great?)  The installers used a jack hammer....
no sweat (well, not *much*) and it was done in an afternoon.

Surely someone like a fencing contracter would do such a thing for a
reasonable fee.  

.jim

    RE .7  Jack hammer?  That might work.  Are you referring to full
    sized type, or the portable type that's about half the size?
    Maybe I can rent one...
    
    Regards,
    Denis
    	

    re.5 that device is called a "spud bar" Great for prying rocks,breaking
    concrete,ect. It will sure build those back muscles.
    
       
    -j
    

    Just put up a sigh, in groundhogese, that says
    
    	"Young lettuce leaves, straight down, 24 inches, FREE"
    
    at the spot you want each hole.

    After sitting at a VTxxx keyboard all day, picking up a post digger
    and digging bar (the 50+ pound variety) is a welcome change of pace.
    
    I have used the manual method, a two-man 5 hp auger and a 100 hp
    tractor with 12" digging auger to dig holes for fence posts and
    sonotube holes.  Where the ground is relatively rock free, the
    motorized augers are THE way to go.  I have found that the two man
    auger is ineffective against any rock that is bigger than a softball.
    I have found the the tractor driven auger will go through anything
    -- however when it finds a rock larger than what it can pick up
    with is corkscrew lifting action, it just looks for the easiest
    path around the obstacle.  Neither of the two motorized augers
    are any fun whatsoever on hillsides.
    
    My advice:   get the appropriate auger (two man or tractor) and
    dig as many of the holes as possible -- when you hit big rocks,
    stop digging that hole and move on to the next.  Then finish all
    the incomplete holes by hand -- it is hard work, but what is wrong
    with that?
    
    Disregard this reply if you are a wimp.  Hrmmph!!!
    
    Randy
    
    Randy
    

    Where does one get a "spud bar"?  Spags?  How much for one?
    
    -al

    Boy, is this a timely topic!  I just dug 8 holes for a deck I'm
    putting up and I did it with a posthole shovel.  I was planning
    on buying a "spud bar" until I saw the price of that hunk of iron
    $36.00 in a hardware store in Merrimack. I decided to just do 
    without it and I was real lucky finding only 3 stuborn holes.
    
    Mike B.

    My neighbor and I put up identical decks (14x16, 6 holes each). We
    considered renting the auger until we dug the first hold.  The first
    one we hit a rock that took two of us to move out.  The hole ended up
    being about 2 feet in diameter (this for the 6 or 8 inch diameter tube)
    for a three feet deep hole.   The next hole ended up with a rock that
    we ended up making the hole approximately 5 feet in diameter for a
    three feet deep hole.   The experience was repeated ad nauseum.
    The auger wouldn't have done us any good.   Each hole ended up with
    its own collection of rocks of varying size, but all of them ended
    up requiring the hole be bigger than we anticipated.   If you have
    soil with no rocks, the auger will work, but if you have rocks of
    any size at all, good old backbreaking methodology is about the
    only way to go.   (Now, if we'd had some M1000 firecrackers (at
    approximately 1/2 stick of dynamite each) we might have made faster
    progress... :-))

    	A few years ago while digging a whole for a chimney footer I
    ran into 3 large rocks. The first 2 were not too bad I just dug
    around them an lifted out. The third and deepest one would have
    required a backhoe and the ecavation of most of my side yard. I
    finaly used good OLD arm and back power & a sledge hammer to brake
    off enough of the rock to poor my footer. 
    	If I had to do it again, As soon as I saw the rock was larger
    than I could lift by myself I would have rented a jack-hammer.
    	A jack-hammer does wonders. I'd go for the big one, the little
    ones are ok on soft cement but don't have the punch for those rocks.
    		
    		In any case, you will need a little back muscle.   
    
    				...Dave

    You guys are hitting it on the head, backbreaking work is sometimes
    the only way to get the job done.  My brother and I usually end up
    digging between 40-50 holes a summer while putting in decks, and
    for 3 years now he has complained and moaned to please rent a post
    hole digger.  I've told him that for the initial expense its not
    worth it because they have limited use in "new england soft soil".
    Hell, on one job we not only hit gravel, shale and large rocks, but
    we were hitting backfilled log scraps (scraps, ha!!, they were 4-5
    footers) from the construction of the guys log home.
    
    Another thing about them is that they don't work very well in gravel,
    and the holes tend to fill back in, unless you have sod to keep
    the tool from keyholing and making the neck of the hole larger than
    the screw of the auger.  
    
    In a previous reply someone said something about going from one
    hole to the next when you hit rocks, and then come back later and
    remove them by hand.  This is definately the way to go, especially
    if you've rented a post digger for the day.
    
    As far as jack hammers go, they work excellent and can be rented
    for the day by anyone, they are heavy (90 lbs) and come with 50
    or so feet of hose which is also heavy, but boy do they work.
    We had to rent one at a friends house back in march to dig his footings
    for the lolly columns. He had rented a mini excavator and the ground
    was frozen to the point where the excavator couldn't even break
    the surface. so we picked up the jack hammers....
    
    One other thing that works well, and is cheaper to rent than the
    post hole digger and the jack hammer, is a rotary hammer with a
    chisel bit.  We used ours (Hitachi) on our last job, and it worked
    beautifully.
    
    good luck...  Fra
                      

    Can someone please give me advice on how to get rid of (permanently)
    earwigs from my stockade fence?  They nest between the cross-beams
    and the slats.  I've sprayed them, which kills a good many of them,
    but a few days later the fence is loaded with them.

    Thanks, Mark.

    Earwigs are basically harmless.  Personally, I find that if I ignore
    them long enough they go away...until next year.  I am basically
    anti-spraying, because one ends up possibly killing helpful insects,
    birds, and other things one would prefer not to kill.  So, my advice
    is not to worry about them.

    Will they damage the wood (spruce)?
    
    Mark.

	I don't know what earwigs do all day, but I never noticed
	any damage to the cedar rail fence they inhabited.

	(Those bugs with the pincer thingies at the back end _are_
	called earwigs, aren't they?)

	They congregate where it's damp.  They stuffed themselves
	into the holes in the posts where the rails' tenons fit.
	They also congregate in the fittings of the cellar bulkhead
	door, falling down on anyone who opened it.  Yucko.

	I agree with Steve, in .1, about avoiding spraying.  It seems
	no matter what you do, you poison something else.  Maybe
	yourself.

	Regards, Robert.

    Like .1 said, they're basically harmless, although gross looking.
    I did a quick scan of Rodale's Encyclopedia of Pests and Other Stuff
    (or something).  It said that they're more beneficial than not, eating
    slugs, snails and other slow-moving beasties, although they also bother
    lettuces, strawberries and sweet corn (I can speak from experience about
    the corn - yuccchh!)
    Speaking from a gardening perspective (not REAL appropriate for a fence
    post scenario), it said they're very susceptible to traps.  One such is a
    section of bamboo, laid horizontally on the ground amongst your veggies.
    Early in the morning, they're supposed to be filled with earwigs.
    Throw the bamboo lengths in "water topped with kerosene".

    Jon Reckard

    RE .2
    Thanks!  I contacted Ken Hamilton and he came down to look over the 
    sight.  He has a small diesel tractor with a variety of attachments,
    including a back hoe.  After looking over the sight, Ken decided
    that the power auger wouldn't do the job because of all the bowling
    ball size rocks.  He offered to try the job with the back hoe
    attachment.
    
    This past saturday, Ken came over with the tractor and started digging.
    It took about 20 minutes a hole, which is sure a lot faster then
    I could do manually!  He was able to do 35 holes in one day.  
    
    His set up, although smaller then construction grade equipment, was
    certainly nothing to sneeze at.  I was impressed with Ken's skill
    on that machine, and his effort to do the best job possible.  He
    certainly knew how to handle those rocks.  At one point, he pulled
    out a rock over 2 feet in diameter; more then twice the width of
    the shovel!
    
    If I have any more landscaping work, I will definitely contact Ken
    again.  He does a nice job and charges a good price.  
    
    What a great feeling it is to see those fence posts finally sticking
    out of the ground!
    
    Regards,
    Denis
         

    	I've often thoght of renting the equipment to do some land
    scapping in my yard but have decided against it based on some work
    I had done a year ago. Having the equipment and being able to operate
    it are two diffrent things. 
    	I had a guy remove some stumps with a backhoe in about 3 hours
    that if I had rented the equipment would have taken me all day and
    then some. Normally you pay for at least 4 hours but being a friend
    of a friend he charged only for 3. 
    	This guy was able to tip that thing just to the point that I
    thought it was going over and bring it back again. He also had to
    go into a swampy area to pull a stump and got the thing barried
    up to the axles. I thought for sure he was stuck. He said he's had
    it up to the cab and been able to get it out. He simply used the
    claw to lift himself up, shove some dirt under the wheels and move
    a couple of feet and do it again.
    	On the other side of the coin; My father told me a nieghbor
    of his rented a backhoe and tipped it over. It ended it up costing
    him an additional $500 for repairs. He could have hired an operater
    for that.
    
    	Just an interesting aside about DIY when you don't know what
    you're doing.
    
    				...Dave
    

     Does anyone have any ideas of how to get your neighbors to go in
    on replacing the redwood fencing between properties? I just bought
    this place in April 1987, and don't know who built the first fences.
    I already offered one guy to go in halves (by way of a note in his
    mail box), got no responce. I'd like to put in extra effort, cement
    and money to do the job right, one that will last more than the
    10 years they seem to last when a contractor does it.
    
     I've heard a lot of stories of how people end up paying for it
    all because the neighbor is either too broke or lazy or doesn't
    give a s#@t what the fence looks like. I know a lot of people push
    it over during a storm and collect insurance to redo it too, but
    I'm a little too honest to do that
    
     Is there any "legal" way to get them to fork out their half of
    work or money?
                                                           
    Bruce

    
    	Most pros will not even install a fence on the property line.
    It usualy has to be completely on your property or your neighbor's.
    When I had mine put in 2 years ago I even had the lot survayed to
    make sure it was.
    
    					...Dave
    

    
    
    	In Mass the law says that since you moved in and the fence was
    there and it is within something like 6' or your property line or
    his then it is both your property and you must both maintain it.
    We knew someone who forced the neighbor to pay half the cost of
    replacing a bad fence, It went to court. I also saw that jerk Judge
    Warphead rule on a case just like this when a storm caused a tree
    to fall on a fence.
    
    	-Steve-
    

A few years ago, my neighbor approached me with the proposition that I replace
a deteriorating stockade fence with a PT rail fence. He offered to split the 
cost of the 100' section between our properties 50-50 if I paid for the 100' 
section that faces the street. He benefitted by improving his view and the 
apparent size of his property.

Dave

    My advice would be to do it on your own, especially since one of
    the neighbors is ignoring your note.  You had better get the property
    surveyed before you invest money and time in a border fence.  
    
    My father had someone back out on an agreement to split the cost
    and that cost them their relationship.  
    
    Even if you do get someone to agree, then you both own it and will
    invariably get into maintenance issues later.  Then the person sells
    the house and you have to get into it with the new owners...etc.,
    etc., etc.

    
    
    
       Any legal way?  Maybe, but I doubt it.  Do *you* own the fence?
    If you do, than *you* own the cost of maintaince. By law, you have
    to maintain it in good condition and set the good side facing out.
    Check with the local building inspector, the fence must be _n_ inches
    inside of your prop line. A reply said check your property line.
    Please, please, please take this advice. It seems that some people
    have telephones with memory, ...the first number programed belongs
    to their lawyer. (Not really a joke anymore.)
       If the fence is co_owned, good luck. Sounds like trouble in the
    future.
       What state do you live in?
    
       
       Rick.  
       
    

    Co-owned fences....hmmmm.  I always thought the installing owner
    placed it just inside his property line and was responsible for
    maintaining it.  Back to the original note.  If it's on your property
    why should he pay his 'fair share'?  I guess you'd have to go back
    to the time of installation and understand  what
    agreements/understandings existed then.
    
    As far as maintenance maybe that's why here in New Hampshire we
    have so many stone walls on boundary lines.  They never need painting
    and all we have to do is rearrange the stones every 8-9 years to
    keep them from spoiling in the sun.

     I live in San Jose, California. I don't know exactly where my
    property line is, I assume it's down the middle of the fence. How
    ever, all the fence's around my property have the "good side" toward
    me. After reading some of the replies, I would assume that the fence's
    belong to the neighbors and not me? 
     If a person were to put up a fence and put it "x" inches on his
    side of the property, I could just vision in later years that you
    would loose those few inches to the neighbor. I think I'd rather
    put it right on the line and make sure that a good marker is
    permanently placed so that years from now when you move away, at
    least the next guy would have his boundaries marked. I think a servey
    is just the ticket to ease my mind. Does anyone know about what
    they charge to do these things?
    
    Bruce

    Well, I had a fence put in last spring (in Massachusetts). Of couse
    the survey came first (my 105x50  perfectly rectangular lot) at
    $450. This is the going rate in these parts. Actually, it's kind
    of nice knowing exactly where your spread lies (it always looks a
    tad bigger one you have the orange stakes sprouting about). No
    permit was required, but my town (Wakefield) actually has an inspector
    of fences, who told me that the fence can abut the inside of the
    lot line. The installer (Elite Fence of Wakefield, who I can highly
    recommend) positioned it within an inch of the marked line.
    
    Now, I paid the tab for the whole job, yet my neighbors enjoy the
    benefit (and enhancement) to their properties. They even get the
    finished side to look at. I'll be keeping  the maintance level high
    (Cabot's Bleaching Stain looks terrific), since the investment was
    significant.

 
    I believe it's quite important to establish good relationships with
    your neighbors. If the condition of the fence bothers you, and  your
    neighbor doesn't (or can't) cooperate, then perform the repairs /
    replacement yourself. It's just not worth the bad feelings which
    will exist as long as you're living next to each other.
    
  
    

    
    	My Grandparents fought with a neighbor about his sad excuse
    of a stockade fence for 15 years and nothing ever came out of it.
    A few years ago I took over their house and established a "cordial"
    speaking friendship with the same neighbors, this past summer they
    paid 100% of the bill for new $40-section-cedar-stockade fence. I don't
    think you can force anybody to pay for such a thing (unless you
    want to go to court and make a permenant enemy) so try a little
    good neighborly-ness (even if it rubs you the wrong way). What do
    you have to loose?
    
    
    Glenn

    
>    Now, I paid the tab for the whole job, yet my neighbors enjoy the
>    benefit (and enhancement) to their properties. They even get the
>    finished side to look at. 

Odd as it may seem, they may not think it's much of a benefit.  My 
neighbors are having fence wars on the side of the property away from 
me, and I'm thankful that I'm on good terms with them.  Some of us think 
fences are vile and ugly even if we get to look at the "good" side.  
Certainly if the neighbors came over and suggested I pay to maintain 
their fence, I would tell them to tear it down.

					>>>==>PStJTT

"Good fences make good neighbors."

Seeing Robert Frost's insight into human nature borne out in such a 
nuts and bolts fashion in this discussion make me almost glad to have 
been an English major. 

John H.

    	RE .8
    
    	$450 to have the lot staked out seems a little high. When I
    had my fence put in before I moved into the house the builder had
    his surveyer come out and stake the lot. As I recall it was about
    $150-$200. And all it took was about an hour. Now it could depend
    on how much record digging they have to do. My lot was a new
    subdivision with all new maps so all he had to do was setup look
    at the map, look through the transit and pound stakes. So it
    could depend on how much upfront work the have to do to find the
    maps of your lot.
    
    					...Dave
    

    I have been talking to my neighbor.  We don't particularly care
    for fences but would like something on the property line.  My
    landscaping plan calls for trees down the line.  It happens they
    look better if they are staggered.  So we have been discussing
    staggering them down the line.  I would put in the even numbered
    ones, he the odd ones (or vice versa) each on our respective sides
    of the property line.  The only hold up is determining the line.
    It was staked when the lots were laid out (new construction) but
    the builder must have felt is was not useful and there were no stakes
    when we arrived.  (thank-yew! mr. builder)  As neither of us has
    gotten around to locating the lines, we haven't progressed.  We
    have other priorities as well.  I want to get some foundation plantings
    next spring.

    Can someone actually reference a law requiring the "good" side of
    a fence to face the neighbors? Some say it is law, some say it is only
    custom to do so. If I pay for a fence, it goes the way I want. If
    the neighbor has a right to the good side, should they also have
    a right to height, style, etc? Who decides what the good side is?
    
    let's see the official rules!
    
    
    Joseph
    

    
    RE: .14
    
    >>If I pay for a fence, it goes the way I want.
    
    Well, you may pay for the fence, and it may go any way you want,
    but if I were your neighbor, I would be mighty upset if you put
    the bad side out.  You might end up paying for putting it up AND
    taking it down!
    
    Yes, there are laws which require the putting the "good" side of
    the fence toward your neighbors, but I'm sure that depends on where
    you live.  I would check with your town.  My parents checked into
    this when they built their fence (in Connecticut), and decided to
    choose a fence with two good sides (looks the same from both sides).
    
    Seems to me that putting the bad side of a fence toward the neighbors
    is sort of like not painting your house when it needs it, both things
    give your neighbor an unsightly view, now you wouldn't want to do
    that would you? (;^)
    
    -tm  
    
    

    >>  "Good fences make good neighbors."
         
    >>  Seeing Robert Frost's insight into human nature borne out in such a
    >>  nuts and bolts fashion in this discussion make me almost glad to have
    >>  been an English major. 
    
   I thought that this saying was much older than Frost, and that he
    just quoted it (and then discussed it meaning) in "Mending Wall".
    
    Does anyone know the true origin?
    
    Andrew Black
    

    Re Frost
    
    Since, in the poem, it is the neighbor who makes the comment, it
    suggests that it was part of the vernacular before Frost.
    
    Come to think of it, you wouldn't build a stone wall AFTER frost.
    (Heh, heh)
    
    pbm
    

    
    re .13
    
    	 Surveyors (Builders/Civil Engineers) don't permanantly mark
    boundries for 2 *big* reasons, (a) Anybody could move a "permanant"
    stake or boulder and (b) It takes about 6-12 months for one of those
    orange or blue flags to fall off a tree and they know who you will call
    (and pay $250 to) when you need to know your property boundries.
    Sneeky? perhaps. Good buisness? Without question! 
    
    	My neighbor has had his property surveyed 3 seperate times and
    received 3 different sets of boundries (from 3 different surveyors)
    and he still has only a *vague* idea of his boundries. I have retained
    a surveyor to do a plot plan of my property (Littleton Ma) a 100' *
    120' lot and the estimated bill is $650, Maybe a *little* steep
    but paying the money to someone willing to take the job is easier
    than "shopping around for a better price" (I have trying to find
    someone "reliable" for 2 & 1/2 years.)
    
    
    Glenn

    re .14
    Joseph, check with your local building inspector regarding fencing
    codes.  I used to think that it was illegal to put up a fence with
    the "bad" side out but when I recently talked to a fencing contractor,
    they told me that you can put it in anyway you want.  In fact a
    neighbor of mine put up a fence "backwards".  I never bothered to
    check with the town fathers regarding the legality.  I think it
    looks a little strange but I don't see that as my problem...just
    his.  Anyway, if this is the only problem I have as a homeowner,
    I will consider myself way ahead.

    
    
    
       Okay, one second, I have to work up some humility first.
    
       The "law" that I mentioned is *not* on the books.  One of the
    replies said that a fence contractor in Mass located his fence three
    inches from the property line. This caused me to doubt the information
    that I had.  I regarded my source as very good. (My father is an
    civil inspector for Mass. [Sorry dad, you gotta eat this cyanide
    pill.])  So I apologize for any misinformation and will set it
    straight.
       In Mass. there is only two laws on fences. First, if the fence
    is over 6 feet high the courts will consider it a "Spite fence".
    The future of the "Spite fence" will be decided in the courts. The
    second law is, if you have a corner lot, the fence cannot be over
    three feet high. It cannot block the view of traffic.
       The rest would fall into local codes. Facing the fence, location,
    fence type and so on are subject to local codes, if any. I talked
    to the building inpsector in Chelmsford Mass. They suggest the location
    of the fence to be within the property line by 6 - 12 inches. Other
    than that, there were no local codes to conform to.  He did mention
    that if the fence was *on* the prop line, that it would be co-owned.
    Read that as you pay, the other guy cuts stars and circles into
    it.  
       After I called the building inspector in Nashua N.H.  Their office
    said pretty much the same. Any fence over six feet requires a building
    permit.  Same thing in Nashua as Mass regarding corner lots. They
    also strongly suggest that you locate the fence on your prop by
    x amount.
       To help were I may have screwed things up, please call this number:
    (408)277-4528. This number is at city hall, (San Jose) and will put 
    you in touch with the building Inspector. They have a different
    inspector in charge every day. Today the person is Sharon Thiele.
       There have been a lot of replies on fences. I know of horror
    stories when it comes to these. One note back said call the building
    inspector.  I said it in my first reply. (Maybe the *only* thing
    I got right.)  Others say, "do a survey".  This will only make your
    life easier.  
       Real Estate Rule Of Thumb. Move into a new house and you may
    want a fence in the future...put it up ASAP!!!  If you do than your
    neighbors won't be offended.  They might be if you put it up out
    of the clear blue.  [Neighbor to neighbors wife: I didn't want to
    see or talk to that SOB either.] 
    
       Again, to all the noters, sorry.  I hope I've redeemed myself.
    
       Rick.
    
    
    
    
    

    
    I always heard/thought that fences were put up not right "on"
    the property line, but a few inches (whatever) inside your 
    property line so that you could maintain the fence.  (i.e.,
    paint it, replace damaged boards, whatever, without getting on
    your neighbors property. 
    
    I bought a new house 1.5 years ago.  Our neighbors on either
    side did not have fences.  One neighbor moved, someone new 
    moved in.  This neighbor put up a fence so his kids could
    play in the yard without the mother worrying about them so
    much.  
    
    When he started to put it up the real estate people for the subdivision
    told him he couldn't put up a chain-link fence due to subdivision
    "rules"...so he ended up with chain link toward the very back of
    the lot and a nice "privacy"(?) fence around the front and part
    of the sides and it looks real nice.  He put up the "good" side
    toward our lot and it's quite nice to look at and will make a good
    backdrop for the landscaping that I want to do in the yard. 
    
    Interesting topic/file...I enjoy it.  Thanks! 
    
    Myra 

                Re: Several previous
                
                The prices  you  quote  for  lot  surveying  seem 
                extremely reasonable.   I  live  in  Southern NH, 
                contacted  two  surveyors and  was  told  for  my 
                property (about 1.1 acres - 136' x 385', roughly) 
                that  the  charge would be about  $1500  -  $2000 
                depending  on  how  much time they had  to  spend 
                looking   for  markers  on  other  properties  to 
                determine how to mark mine.  This is with no plot 
                plan, just the line markers.
                
                Is this unreasonable  ?   Should I check out more 
                surveying companies ?   I  had given up on having 
                it done because of the cost.
                
                Warren
                

     My wife's cousin and her husband bought an existing, older home in
     a small town in NYS.  On their side of one of the fences that were
     there was a mass of straggly flowers, weeds, etc.

     When my wife's cousin started cleaning out this mess, her neighbor
     came out and yelled at her that the fence was actually a foot on
     her side of the property line, and that the "strip" was the neighbor's
     property, and that she didn't want it messed with.

     My suggestion was they put up their own fence, just inside their own
     property line, and let the neighbor figure out how to deal with her
     1 foot wide by 200 foot long "flower garden".

     Anyways, I'm glad I live in an area where there's over 100 feet of
     woods between my neighbor and us, and I don't have to worry about 
     fences.

     -gary

    
    Re: .23
    
    What an unbelievably obnoxious neighbor!  I can't understand why
    she would care what you do with your cousin's side, since it didn't
    even face her!
    
    Let's see ... Put the good side facing the neighbor, but make sure
    it looks ugly, by growing lots of weeds next to it.  Hmmm.
    

    	This kind of reminds me of the situation I have. My neighbor's
    house is actually behind mine and he has a long driveway which runs
    back to the house. There is about a 5 foot wide strip of lawn between
    my property line and his driveway. Now I get along good with my
    neighbor so I keep this strip cut,watered fertilized and seeded.
    Mainly because looking at my house you would think it was my lawn
    any ways. And for him to drag out 500ft of hose to water it would
    be rather diffacult. 
    	Now on the otherside of the drive my other neighbors (2 of them)
    don't get along to good and you know exactly where the property line is.
    The neighbor in back only cuts this strip once a month so it realy
    looks ragged. I can't understand why anyone would prefer to have
    to take the time and effort to cut a little strip themselves, if
    someone else offers to take care of it. I wish someone would offer
    to cut my lawn.
    
    					...Dave
    

>    What an unbelievably obnoxious neighbor!  I can't understand why
>    she would care what you do with your cousin's side, since it didn't
>    even face her!

Put yourself on the other side of the fence.  You're sitting at home 
when these new people who probably haven't even introduced themselves 
just walk over to your property (you know this, they don't, but you 
don't know they don't know... get it?) and without so much as a "by your 
leave," start hacking down the bushes.  Do you let this attack on your 
property go unchecked?  How do you say, "Pardon me, but you're 
destroying stuff that doesn't belong to you, without even checking to 
see if you own it." in a way that doesn't seem a little abrasive?  

It would have been just as easy for the new poeple to walk over to the 
neighbor's and say "Hi, our names are ... We're so happy to be in the
neighborhood.  Blah, blah, blah, ...we were thinking of clearing out the
brush next to your fence." And on and on in a neighborly fashion.  

					>>>==>PStJTT

    re.23
     
     How does the owner of the 1 foot of property get to it and maintain
    it without stepping on your cousins property? Even with a gate,
    it would have to be an awfully skinny person to do it! What type
    of growth is there? Is it weeds or flowers? In any case if I were
    your cousin and I didn't like what was growing there, I think the
    growth would mysteriuosly die and nothing would ever seem to be
    able to grow there again!!!
    
    BTW 
     How tall is this fence anyway?
    
    Bruce

    
    
    	Bush killer type A !
    	-Steve-
    

Re .22

Warren:

When I was having an addition designed, I became concerned about it being too 
close to the property line.  So, all I wanted is to establish the distance 
from the house to one property line.  My house, by the way, sits on 2 acres, 
about half wetlands.  So, I looked into some surveyors.  The first I went to 
said that before they would put their stamp on a plan, they would have to 
survey the whole lot, and ensure "closure", etc. etc. and, depending on the 
condition of existing markers, the price would be from $1500-$2500.  But, they 
could start within 2 weeks.  They also recommended I talk to the original 
surveyor, who might do it for much less, since his stamp already verifies all 
the stuff they would have to redo.  I spoke to this gent, and lo and behold, 
they could do the job for $150-$250.  And they could start in 6 months!  
Fortunately, he suggested I check my mortagage survey, and talk the whole 
thing over with the nuilding inspector.  The survey said I had 65 ft, which 
was lots more than I needed to meet the side setback, and the inspector told 
me that it would be sufficient proof for him.

Moral of the story: look devastated by high prices or long lead times, and you 
might get some great recommendations.

						     Good luck
							- JP

    re .28
    
    Bush killer type "A" POSITIVE!! :-))
    
    Bruce

    I would probably use the hook & eye method, and take a plane, or
    draw knife to round off the corners of the 4x4 post. This should
    allow the gate to open all the way without having to offset the
    hinge (or at least not as much). You probably already have your
    gate haning by now, but I thought I'd put my two cents worth in anyway.
                                         Mel

    We have a split rail fence that gets reduced to splinters about
    once a winter. What happens is the kids use the grade school parking
    lot as a party spot friday nights. Our house is on the corner and
    when it snows, the snow bank builds and acts as a ramp over the
    curb and onto our yard.
    
    I proposed to set some 3' 6" pipe in concrete to stop the intrusion
    the yard but my spouse says that if the kids gets hurt or killed,
    we'd be paying. Now our yard have low shrubs behind this split rail
    fence. I think that if I set the pipe about 10" off the ground,
    inside the shrubs, the pipe might tear out the under carrage of
    the car before it gets to the house. No one gets hurt; my house
    stays on it's foundation.
    
    The local covenants doesn't allow for concrete walls; just split
    rail fences.
    
    /cal

     I grew up in a neighborhood with rowdy kids and had a neighbor
    with a problem similar to yours. My neighbor's house was on a bend
    in the road after a *long* straight stretch of road. After having
    several fences torn down (mostly by people traveling too fast in
    bad weather) he decided to install a "post and rail" fence made
    up of 6" cement filled lally columns. Everybody laughed at his
    idea until the day a drunk speeder came down the road at 80+ mph
    and ran into the fence. There wasn't anything left to the car or
    the driver and the fence wasn't too pretty either but if that fence
    hadn't been there, the car would have gone through the neighbor's
    living room and killed more than the drunk driver.
    
     I don't believe the neighbor ever had any type of legal action
    placed against him and can't even think of why he ever should!
    If you relly want protection for your yard and anybody in it, I
    would suggest that this is the way to go. If you have "legal questions"
    call a lawyer and chew his ear for a minute, it wouldn't hurt.
    
     Placing a pipe only 18" or 24" off the ground may be more of a
    concern for those who are rightfully in your yard as opposed to
    some kids in the lot next door.
    

    Glenn

    I am no lawyer, but I wouldn't do anything that might be construed
    as malicious (i.e. trying to rip out the undercarriage of a car).
    Unless, of course, these twits just happened to run over my rock
    garden and make a mess of it, darn {;-).  (Hmmm a few large native
    boulders strategically placed might be an idea?  Might cost a bit
    of $$$ to get them in place but after that they are *cheap* to 
    maintain.  A few posies and the neighbors won't complain either!)
    
    I would (after checking with a lawyer) set up something that is 
    easily visible, night or day, (white paint, reflectors, etc.).  How 
    strong might also be a consideration.  If you make it too strong 
    (surplus WW II tank traps?) your intent might be considered malicious 
    also.  Though if it were made as visible as possible I would think 
    you should be safe.  The problem is they don't have to win a lawsuit 

Where my folks lived for many years, they were on the wrong side of a dogleg in
a road after about a 1/2  mile straightaway from Rt1 in Saugus.  Those familiar
with the way people drive in Mass  in  general and that area in particular will
understand that cars approach the dogleg at speeds in excess of 40 mph - and it
is a residential area.  

Well, when  the  road  is  wet/snowy/icy  cars will often come unglued and keep
going straight when  the  road curves.  We had a 2' thick, 5' tall hedge in the
front of the house  along  the  sidewalk.    The score was generally Detroit 0,
Hedge many - cars, small  trucks,  motorcycles.  The only car that ever made it
through was a Mustang ('60s vintage)  that left the road and went airborne when
it hit the curb.  It mushed through the hedge at about 3' in the air.  Even so,
it's bumper (if that is what Ford called  them  then)  was  still caught in the
hedge.

After the errant  car/truck/motorcycle  was towed away, the local nursery would
replace the hedge and  we  were  ready for the next onslaught.  The hedges kept
our yard free of intruding belchmobiles and did not harm any of the drivers.

Dave

    I think the idea mentioned in .2 of using boulders is a good one.
    The boulders should effectively stop the cars, can be made to look
    decorative, and will last and last.  However, I don't know about
    the legal implications should somebody hit it and become injured.
    
    I also get my mailbox run down about four times a year, either by
    out of control cars or the snow plow.  This summer, I think I might
    look for an old truck leaf spring for the mailbox.  I can cement
    one end about three feet into the ground so the curve is towards
    the road, and mount the mailbox on other end.  This way, when the
    snowplow comes by, the spring will give a little when the heavy,
    wet snow is pushed against it.  Also, it may survive a car hitting
    it, or at the very least let the car know it hit something by giving
    it a sizable dent.
    
    I have never had a driver offer to replace the mailbox after they
    ran it down.  Let's see how they like a little damage to *THEIR*
    property. 
    
    Regards,
    Denis
    

    You may want to check to be sure where your the road legally ends
    and your property legally begins before getting too carried away
    with boulders, etc.  You may discover that a good portion of what
    you think is your front yard is legally the right-of-way for the
    road, and putting barriers, etc. in that area I suspect might be
    a problem (but I'm no lawyer).  

    
    You may contact your city councilor and/or public works dept.  You
    may be able to work in conjunction with them to put boulders, curbing,
    trees, etc. if there is a safety problem.  Just an idea.
    
    Phil

    re: .6
    
    That is the only reason I haven't put a humongous boulder in front
    of my mailbox.

re mailboxes:

Every now and then, our local letter carrier leaves a note in our mailbox
giving what appears to be the official Postal Service requirements for mounting
a rural mailbox.  One of the things that has always given me a chuckle are
words to the effect that the box must be mounted so that it will not cause
damage to a vehicle that hits it.  (It doesn't say that the box has to be able
to survive such a hit.)

Bob

    I wish we didn't have to have "rural route" mailboxes when we don't
    live in a "rural" area - I don't know why in my neighborhood of
    1/3-acre lots, we have to have mailboxes on the street that get
    knocked over by the snowplow and sent flying by errant autos, when
    other neighborhoods can have their boxes mounted on their houses,
    where they are a good deal more durable.  My box needs replacing
    again, but I may as well wait until winter is really over, in case
    we get another big snowstorm.  I'd much rather have a mail slot
    in the front door, like the house I grew up in had (which was a
    BIGGER lot than I have; I grew up about 20 miles from here).  That
    way the mail stays dry since the slot closes itself - nothing like
    a soggy bill because the mail-person didn't shut the box, not to
    mention mail that I never get at all (like bills!) because it blew
    away out of the open box.
    
    In REALLY rural areas, a lot of people hang their mailboxes from
    an upside-down-L-shaped pole, on chains.  I've seen people hit these
    before, and all the usually happens is that the mailbox swings back
    and forth for a while.  I suppose it could still damage the car
    if the car was REALLY WAY off the road and hit the mailbox or the
    pole head-on or something.  My view would be that the driver deserved
    to have the car dented, in that case.

    re: .10 
    
    No sweat, I got lots of bills you're welcome to.  Mine never blow
    away.  ;-)
    

    
    I was recently given a load of chainlink fence (boy are my 
    brothers wonderful!).  But, they have no idea how long it is. I
    was hoping that chainlink fence was bundled in specific lengths
    and that some people in HOME_WORK would happen to know what those
    lengths were.  Any takers?
    
    Specifics: 5 feet high.  2 bundles.  Each bundle is about 2 1/2
    to 3 feet across.   It was bought for a construction site and one
    bundle has not been opened yet.  
    
    Sherry
    
    

    Probably about 100-150' per roll would seem standard.

    I need to buy some replacement rails for a split-rail fence, and
    I can't find anyplace that sells them.  Has anybody seen them anywhere.
   
    A location in south-east New Hampshire or north-east Mass would
    be nice.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Steve

    Try "Penney Fence" Route 102, Londonderry,N.H.  (603)-432-5231,3136.
    

If I am putting up a four foot fence, do I have to sink the posts below 
the frost line??  From what I have read, that doesn't seem to be the case, why??

Brad.

    .19:
    
    Well, will the walls fall down and the roof collapse, if the footing
    for the fencepost gives?
    
    Dick

    I bought some post and rail fencing at Sommerville.
    
    Cost FYI was $4.50 PER POST
                  3.30 PER 8' RAIL
                  4.50 PER 10' RAIL
    
    If you want smaller rails you have to cut them down yourself.
    This was the only negative about buying it there.  Fence dealers
    will give you custom lengths but the cost is about 1/3 more in
    my case.                   
    
    Another thing about the post and rails was the poor quality of the
    wood.  Lots of cracks.                     
    
    Anyhow I need some recommendations on treating the section of the
    posts that are going into the ground.
    
    I wanted to use a tar like substance called creosote.  Well it 
    seems you need a special license to sell it (hazardous substance)
    so no one seems to carry it.
                                 
    I was thinking of staining the 2 foot section with redwood stain,
    since I have some sitting around, and then treating it with one
    of those wood sealer products that is suppose to keep moisture out.
    
    Anyone have any recommendations on treating this?
    Anyone know where to get creosote?
    
    Mark.
    

My father used to coat the lower sections of fence posts with roofing tar.
It was relatively inexpensive, easy to use and find.  The posts were put
in when I was a kid, and 20 years later they're still standing, in good
shape.  You might consider this over creosote, especially since it's very
hard to get the stuff these days.

-Mark LePage

    

    Roofing Tar,
    
    Ya thats a great idea.  Thanks Mark.
    
    Mark C.

>    Roofing Tar,
>    
>    Ya thats a great idea.  Thanks Mark.
    
Roofing tar dissolves in many solvents - I know it dissolves in gasoline, it 
might dissolve in turpentine or kerosene.  If you made a thin solution of 
roofing tar for the first coat (or coats), I bet you could get the tar to soak 
well into the wood.

Paul

    re -.1
    Great idea.  I once read of that tip for treating wooden gutters.
    Dilute 1 part roofing cement with 4 parts paint thinner and brush
    it on.  It should work great on the posts.
    
    bob

    OK, but do we use cement or cover???
    
    I called Town Paint and asked if they had roofing tar.
    
    They asked cement or cover?
    
    Which one are you guys recommending?
    
    Mark.

    >       -< Cement or Cover ? >-
    
    Plastic Roofing Cement.
    

    
    My son used to work at Walpole Woodworkers (made all those beautiful
    gates in their brocure).  When I mentioned this to him last night,
    he said that there is a product called "CUNUPSOL" that is used now
    instead of creosote.  He didn't know where you could get it.
    
    He has started his own fence company - "Realistic Custom Fencing".
    The first fence he built was in Weston, he and the customer designed
    the fence so that style is now called the "Westonian".  The posts
    were pressure-treated pine so he didn't need any preserver...they're
    supposed to last 40 years.
    
    I'll pass any questions you have on to him.  
    
    Alice     MEMCL1::PITTS
    in pine, so he bought pressure-treated posts that are meant to last
    40 years.  

    We just adopted a dog and are going to be putting in a gate.  The
    yard is completely fenced in.  The gate is going to go across the
    driveway.  There is a post and fence on one side where the gate
    is going and we will be installing a post next to the house (in
    the lawn--not driveway).
    
    Any instruction and/or tips on installing post and hanging gate will
    be greatly appreciated.
    
    Regards,
    Leslie 

The only thing I can think of about gates is that if you put in one of those
gates with the "Z" type brace in it, be SURE that the diagonal is in 
compression.  There IS a right and wrong way and the wrong way will result in
sagging.

In other words, assuming you're looking at the "Z", the hinges should be on the
left.  Putting them on the right will cause the sag.  You may have to think 
about it for awhile, but it's true.

-mark

    
    This can be a bigger task than you would like to think. There is
    a tremendous amount of leverage on the end of the gate furthest
    from the post. If not properly braced it will indeed sag over time.
    
    My father-in-law had a gate, 2 sections about 7'ea installed by
    an "expert". (We usually diy, but this was a way to save time) Anyway,
    they sunk 3" posts 4' down and promised on all that was holy that
    it would be fine. I bet them it would sag and lo and behold, in
    less than 90 days I won the bet. 
    
    The "expert" promised to do whatever I suggested to fix the problem.
    Here's what we did.
    
    
    
    	       /|			|\
    	      /	|	gate sections   | \
    	     /	|-----------------------|  \
    	    /	|	   |		|   \<---metal cable with adjustable
    	   /	|	   |		|    \   turnbuckle
    	  /	|	   |		|     \
    	 /	|-----------------------|<----------- 3" steel posts
    	/	|			|	\
    ---------------------------------------------------ground level
    	|	|			|	|
    ~3'	|	|			|	|
    	|	|			|	|

    I'm sorry that the drawing is primitive, but I hope you get the
    idea. Our gates were wooden and pretty heavy. If you feel the gates
    are too heave, or you have trouble closing them, you can run a cable
    from the top of the post to a point near the center of the gate
    section to assist the hinges.
    
    The modified gates have been up almost 3 years now and still work
    as good as day 1. We did have to tighten the turnbuckle once, but
    that only took a minute.
    
    good luck
    
    JMB
    

    I looked under 1111 and fences but found no help. 
    
    Sunday, I painted a section of my post and rail fence Cupernol.
    Is there any reason I could not use a sprayer for this job.  Our
    fence goes around 3/4 acre.
    

	Seriously, if this is a property boundry fence, make sure you get 
	permission from your neighbor.  Some of the fallout will definitely 
	fall on his property.  Also, make sure you cover everything 
	within 20 ft and the wind is not blowing.  Spraying will use a lot
	more paint, especially when the area to cover is small compared to 
	the area being sprayed.

	Have you tried a stucco roller?  These are fluffier then regular rollers
	and work the paint into the rough wood pretty well.  I painted the 
	400+ft of split rail fence in front of my dad's house with one.  My dad
	had a great method for painting the house(and reshingling and spreading 
	42 Tons of gravel), but you have to plan ahead about 16 years.  

	

I've seen people "painting" (if you can call it that) chain link fences with
some sort of waterproof mitt.  The simply dunk it in the paint and spread it
on like finger-paint.  This makes it easy to get into tight spaces that a roller
might miss.  Perhaps a paint store could give you some guidance.

-mark

    STOCKADE FENCE COMES TWO WAYS.  CEDAR OR MIXED WHITEWOODS.  DEPENDING
    ON WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH THE FENCE AFTER IT IS UP, THERE ARE
    A FEW SUGGESTIONS.  WHEN YOU BUY THE FENCE, THE POLE IS USUALLY
    SOLD SEPARATELY, AND COMES PRESSURE TREATED.  IF YOU WANT THE NATURAL
    LOOK, I WOULD SUGGEST CEDAR(CEDAR IS NATURALLY WEATHER-RESISTANT,AND
    DOES NOT ROT. HOPEFULLY!). IF YOU WANT THE CHEAPEST WAY, GET THE
    FENCE,LAY IT FLAT, AND ROLLER ON A SEMI-TRANSPARENT OR SOLID STAIN
    TO BOTH SIDES(THIS IS MIXED WHITEWOOD FENCE), THEN PUT IT UP.  THIS
    FENCE IS ABOUT $13.00-15.00 CHEAPER THAN CEDAR.  
    
    GOOD LUCK!
    
    BREN

    
    I am planning a picket fence and want to use PT posts and non treated
    wood for the pickets and frame.  I plan to stain the fence with
    a white color.  Will the PT wood take the stain (seems like most
    PT wood is left unfinished)?  Will the PT and non treated wood
    (pine) appear the same following staining?

    I've used white stain (solid color) on both PT and untreated wood
    and it comes out pretty similar even with only one coat.  Two coats
    and you'll never tell the difference.  
    
    I let my PT weather for about 6 months before staining (it needs
    to dry out) and it has held up well for 3 years.  
    
    If you use a semitransparent stain, the difference in wood will
    be more apparent, but only up close.  For a fence, I think it would
    be hardly noticeable.
    
    Bob

	System just exited, I will try again. I agree with .6's
    reply, solid white stain will cover PT lumber just fine. I
    completed a picket fence that used both PT and regular lumber,
    2 coats of solid white stain covered everthing. As an aside to
    this I used PT 2x4's for the rails and they warped. Although
    it is not noticeable from the front, (the pickets are level)
    you can see it from the back and it BUGS me. The fence has been
    up now for almost a year, so hopefully they won't bend any more.
    If you use PT lumber for the rails, I would reccomend that you
    pay a little extra and buy kiln-dried PT wood.(I learned of its
    existance in this notesfile after the fence was done.
                                 
                                                 Wayne
    

    I have "painted" my six foot wooden fence twice in the past few
    years. The first time I used a roller and the second time I used
    a spray gun. I used a redwood stain both times. I have never used
    Cupernol but I understand it has the same consistency as a redwood
    stain.
    
    When I used the roller method I found that I also had to get into
    some tight corners with a brush. I used a roller with a broom stick
    extension so I didn't have bend to get the low spots. It was a messy
    job because of shrubs surrounding the fence which had to be pulled
    back with a rope and stake to allow me to get at the fence with
    the roller and follow-up with a brush. The quarter acre sized fence
    took two full weekends and I had as much stain on me as the fence.
    
    The next time I bought the cheapest electric spray gun I could find
    on the assumption that it would survive just one fence painting
    session. I tied weights to four corners of an old shower curtain
    and draped it over each section of fence to protect my neighbors
    property from any overspray. I sprayed before the shrubs had foliage
    in the early spring. The spray gun worked fine, I didn't have to
    use a brush, I found I could reach thru the shrub branches and spray
    the fence without tying the shrubs back. The only problem was that
    the spray gun clogged with the pigment in the stain every three
    or four eight foot sections and I had to stop and clean it. The
    gun lasted until the job was finished which took about a day and
    a half. By the time I was done it was beyond cleaning and wasn't
    suitable for other painting purposes. I used about the same amount
    of stain both times, perhaps a little more with the spray gun. 
    
    The fence looked the same after both painting sessions so the coverage
    must have been about the same. The cheap spray gun cost me $27 bucks
    against two and half days of my time, I thought that was a good
    investment.

    Just completed my biggest DIY project to date -- custom PT Fence
     
                       =====      25 - 6x6x12' PT Posts
    \ ---- 7.5' ------ |   |                                
    /==================|   |
    \------------------|   |   
    /X X X X X X X X X||   |      24 - 2' high framed 
    \ X X X X X X X X ||   |           1/4" PT lattice             
    /X X X X X X X X X||   |           sections
    \ X X X X X X X X ||   |
    /------------------|   |
    \------------------|   |                       
    /==================|   |
    \__________________|   |
    /  |    |    |    ||   |
    \  |    |    |    ||   |
    /  |    |    |    ||   |
    \  |    |    |    ||   | 
    /  |    |    |    ||   |    24 - 5' high framed
    \  |    |    |    ||   |         3/4" PT tongue&groove
    /  |    |    |    ||   |         board sections
    \  |    |    |    ||   |
    /  |    |    |    ||   |
    \  |    |    |    ||   |       
    / -----------------|   |    25 - 4' deep x 18" diameter 
    \__________________|   |         post holes.                      
    /                  |   |       - Ends & corners in concrete
                 -------------     - Line posts in tamped "e"arth
                    eee|   |eee      and processed "g"ravel layers 
                    eee|   |eee    - On 6" footing of processed
                    ggg|   |ggg      gravel
                    ggg|   |ggg
                    eee|   |eee    
                    eee|   |eee                          
                    ggg|___|ggg
                    ggggggggggg

	Re: .9

	When do you expect the invasion?:-)

	Great design!  Are there any special notches or joints required 
	or is the design straight forward from your picture.

	Brian

I have a similar problem... We live on a very busy street (45 mph posted speed
limit) and I have to close off our driveway - got a very inquisitive 3 year 
old!  I'd like to put up post and rail on each side of the driveway and "close"
the driveway with some sort of post and rail gates.  The driveway at that point
is 12' wide so I'm assuming that I can go with 2 6' sections.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!! Need a solution soon if
my son is going to try any kind of a tricycle this summer... Thanks!
 


re .2  Where would the cable attach?? Could small "wheels" be used to 
       assist holding up that much weight?

    RE: .3
    
    	Yes, you could use wheels, but if the gate is properly braced,
    	as pointed out in .1, you souldn't need them.  To try and give
    	you an idea of the right and wrong way consider the following
    	(crude) pictures:
    
    			Right
    
       Post
         v          Gate
    	+-+           v
    	| | +---------------------+
    	| |{} < Hinge            /|
    	| | |                ---- |
    	| | |               /     |
    	| | |           ----      |
    	| | |          /          |
    	| | |      ----           |
    	| | |     /  ^            |
    	| | | ----   Diagonal     |
    	| |{}/         Brace      |
    	| | +---------------------+
    ~~~~| |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ < Ground level
    	| |
    	| |
    
    			Wrong
    
       Post
         v          Gate
    	+-+           v
    	| | +---------------------+
    	| |{}\                    |
    	| | | ----                |
    	| | |     \               |
    	| | |      ----           |
    	| | |          \          |
    	| | |           ----      |
    	| | |  Diagonal-^   \     |
    	| | |    Brace       ---- |
    	| |{} < Hinge            \|
    	| | +---------------------+
    ~~~~| |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ < Ground level
    	| |
    	| |
    
    In the top diagram, the brace is in compression, and wood is reasonably
    strong in compression; also the shear forces on the nails/bolts
    is much less (than tension).  In the lower diagram, the brace is
    in tension, and wood is not very strong in this mode; you will also
    have to have many many nails/bolts to resist the shear forces with
    the brace in tension.
    
    I would expect that you would want to sink the post 3 to 4 feet
    in the ground.  If the post is wood, the weight of the door may
    require a guy wire (with a turnbuckle) to keep the post itself
    from bending.  (Although I expect that this may not be needed
    with a 5" to 6" wood post, which is probably what you would need
    to look right with a 6' gate section.)
    
    The only other thing I can think of is that the brace should be
    adequately sized to as to resist bending.  With wood, I suspect
    that a 2x6 (or maybe a 2x4) would be sufficient.  With metal, I
    would want something at least on the order of .125 (1/8") thick
    walled pipe.
    
    Caveat...I have never actually built one of these beasts, but with
    all of the other work I have done, this is what I'd shoot for.
    
    - Mark

thanks for all of the great suggestions!

Larry

    We're in a similar situation as .26.  Our neighbor's house is way
    back off the road.  Their front yard is along our back yard.  We
    just got new neighbors (who haven't said hello or introduced
    themselves).  Since they have 2 small children, they sit in their
    front yard, which gives us no privacy in our backyard.  They also
    have a large dog that they let run loose (we'll be handling THAT
    real soon).  It certainly makes being home feel uncomfortable.
    
    My husband and I are contemplating putting up an arborvitae hedge
    or some sort of spruce or hemlock trees on our property to block
    the view.  Has anyone done that?  How long did it take to have
    the hedge/trees grow significantly?  
    
    Robin

Robin,

We have  managed  to "isolate" ourselves from a neighbor using Forsythias.  The
only drawback is  that  they  are  bare in the winter, however we don't use the
back yard then so it is not a big problem.

Forsythias grow like crazy, all they need is sunlight.  They sprout shoots that
either get pulled or will spread.  Each year, I pull up a bunch of newly formed
sprouts and transplant them to extend the "living wall".   If  you  take one of
the "branches", pull it down to the ground and cover it with a pile of dirt, it
will sprout roots.

About the only thing that makes a faster, cheaper and more durable  living wall
is  bamboo.   Many forms of bamboo will grow in northern climates.   Bamboo  is
what you use when you want to get some level of revenge against the  neighbors,
it spreads that fast and is VERY resistant to trimming back.

Luck,

Dave

    We once had a "traffic" problem across our front yard. 
    
    To stop it, we installed a hedge of about 90 rosa multiflora bushes
    planted 18 inches apart. Within 2 years we had a hedge about 6 feet
    high and honest-to-god inpenetrable.
    
    Rosa multiflora is pretty cheap, has nice little blossoms in the
    spring, grows as wide as it does high, is hearty in New England,
    and is used in some places as traffic barriers between lanes on
    highways.
    
    John H.

    Off the subject a bit....
    
    My suggestion is that YOU make the move to introduce yourself. 
    Friendliness goes a long way.  Also, if you ever have to work an issue
    later (the dog, etc) it will make it much easier to approach someone if
    you know them.  I would not blame them for the layout of the property,
    nor their desire to let the dog run loose.  If the dog ends up on your
    property you can work that, but it will be constant aggravation if you
    get off on the wrong foot.  Try being friendly first.  Just a
    recommendation.

    
    I'm going to be building a fence arround our pool and along a property
    line this Summer.
    
    This will be a cedar picket fence, four feet high in some places
    and six feet high in others.
    
    The best price I can get on eight foot long sections is about $40 for 
    the four foot high and $60 for the six foot high (at Spaulding Fence
    in Worcester).  This translates into big bucks when I add the posts
    and gates.
    
    Soooo... I wonder is there a source for the materials so that I
    could construct the sections myself?   I would appreciate 
    suggestions for a source in Central Mass/Southern N.H. where
    I could purchase cedar stock and posts.
              
    Thanks,
    
    George
    
      
    

    
    Re .11
    
    I had the same idea, but priced the lumber at lumberyards (cedar)
    and came to the determination that it wouldn't be any cheaper to
    build it myself than buy it pre-made from a fence company (not
    everyplace sells cedar, also). And that didn't include the nails
    or my time to do it!
    
    FWIW,
    
    Fred

    In my opinion it's not worth it. To build a fence yourself expect
    to spend the whole summer doing it. Forget about using the pool
    you're putting the fence around. And I agree with .12 I don't think
    it's going to be much cheaper if it is at all.
    
    Mike

    
    re: 815.13
    
    Hey Mike, have you been talking to my wife? 
    
    ;-)
    
    George

    If you get the premade 6'x 8' sections of fence (stockade) and the posts
    to go with it, you can DIY the fence.
    
    Last summer, I installed a 200+' stockade fence, by myself in two
    days. That included digging MANY holes with a post hole digger and
    installing the sections and poles. It isn't easy to do by yourself
    so a second set of hands would be useful.
    

I also installed about 200' of 6x8 stockade last year. Channel 
had spruce or some such white wood on sale at $17.99 a section, 
best price anywhere, but, they didn't deliver. Went to Grossmans, 
who had it on sale at $19.99. Asked if they'd meet the price, 
they did, bingo free delivery. I don't think that it's all that 
critical to have the prssure treated stuff when it comes to the 
sections, but I'd use pressure treated posts. I used the smaller 
landscape timbers, @ $3 ea. They worked out fine.

Good luck.
daryll

When I was putting up fences, the company would either sell me the
materials, or would intall the fence, or would install and stain it.
If you are going to stain the fence, save money and do that yourself.
I had them install one fence (the one that I wanted to get in quickly)
but I saved money on the second by installing it myself.  The second
was very short, so installing it fit into one weekend -- paying for
installation on the other one was expensive, but money well spent.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

In the very near future I will be having a driveway installed on a new
building lot which I purchased in the town of Shirley.  This driveway
will need to be about 400 ft long, about 300 ft of which will boarder
wetlands on both sides.  I have obtained an "Order of Conditions" from
the Shirley Conservation Comission, and have my driveway permit per
the highway inspector.  

In order to obtain these things I had to have an engineered driveway 
desigin plan.  In the plan the engineer depicted a haybale line on 
both sides of the road for 300 ft.  I plan to do the installation 
myself.  After pricing haybales (which would need to overlap 1/3 
with adjacent bales) I can see that I would need nearly 300 bales
to complete the job at a cost of about 3.00 per bale or $900!!  If I
were to use silt fencing instead of haybales my total cost would be
about $300 or $50 per 100 ft roll.  Later this week I will be contacting
the conservation comission to propose, you guessed it, the use of 
silt fencing in lieu of haybales.  

I would like to know if anyone has had any experience in this area
and could tell me what my chances are of making such a substitution.
I have seen both errosion control media used and there seems to be
little rhyme or reason as to why one is used over the other.  Lastly, 
I would like to know if anyone knows where I might be able to purchase 
"mulch" haybales "cheap", in the event that I have to go forward with 
the haybale scheme.

Regards

See also topics 998 and 2224.

Looks like I'm going to have to put up a fence around the back of my house. 
This is a 1/2-acre lot, and I estimate I'll need approximately 400+ feet of
fencing to enclose the back and part of the side yards.

	o to keep in the dog
	o to keep out the neighbor kids
	o to provide privacy from the adjacent yards (both sides and back)

I picked up the Sunset book on fences, but I have a couple of questions for the
fence experts in here:

1. I'll probably have to use some kind of pre-fab board fencing to achieve the
privacy goal.  Is my yard going to look hemmed in with uniform fencing all
around?  Ways around this? (Eg. plantings, varying fence pattern, etc?)

2. My house is grey, and I think I'd like the fence to match.  Stain is one
way, but I've also heard about applying a mix of bleach and stain. This way,
when the stain wears out, the wood is "naturally" weathered to a grey color.
Anyone tried this?

3. Revisit the tamped-earth vs. concrete post anchor debate. The ground is very
sandy, and the area (upstate N.Y.) is fairly breezy and cold as he#@ in the
winter. The building inspector suggested alternating concrete and tamped earth
from post to post. Is this what you'd recommend?

4.  What's the best way to attach the pre-fab 6x8' fence panels to 4x4" posts?
Do you overlap each section just 2" into the post and then nail straight in?
How many nails per section? Size?

5. I'll probably use P.T. posts and spruce fence sections.  How long can I
expect such a structure to survive in this climate, given the finish applied in
#2?

Thanks for any recommendations.

Brian

    The last installment of Hometime was on building fences.  Maybe
    someone that taped it will let you borrow it.  The next one is also
    going to be on fences and building them.
    
    George

Look for >>>>> below V
                     V
                   V---V
                    V V
                     V  


       <<< SERENA::SERENA$DUA2:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 815.18                HOW TO BUILD A WOODEN FENCE                  18 of 19
WYNTON::BMCWILLIAMS "Improvise if you have to ..."   36 lines  16-APR-1990 10:06
                    -< another fence project in the works >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks like I'm going to have to put up a fence around the back of my house. 
This is a 1/2-acre lot, and I estimate I'll need approximately 400+ feet of
fencing to enclose the back and part of the side yards.

	o to keep in the dog
	o to keep out the neighbor kids
	o to provide privacy from the adjacent yards (both sides and back)

I picked up the Sunset book on fences, but I have a couple of questions for the
fence experts in here:

1. I'll probably have to use some kind of pre-fab board fencing to achieve the
privacy goal.  Is my yard going to look hemmed in with uniform fencing all
around?  Ways around this? (Eg. plantings, varying fence pattern, etc?)

>>> Great book on how to build and install fences.

2. My house is grey, and I think I'd like the fence to match.  Stain is one
way, but I've also heard about applying a mix of bleach and stain. This way,
when the stain wears out, the wood is "naturally" weathered to a grey color.
Anyone tried this?

>>>> My neighbors done this and it looks great, after two years the fence is
     starting to weather more so the stain is disappearing.
 
3. Revisit the tamped-earth vs. concrete post anchor debate. The ground is very
sandy, and the area (upstate N.Y.) is fairly breezy and cold as he#@ in the
winter. The building inspector suggested alternating concrete and tamped earth
from post to post. Is this what you'd recommend?

>>>> Probably a good idea if thats the conditions. I have a mixture of sand and
   gravel areas. All my PT posts are just set in the ground 2 1/2' down and 
   packed. Only a few loose posts after last winter to repack.

4.  What's the best way to attach the pre-fab 6x8' fence panels to 4x4" posts?
Do you overlap each section just 2" into the post and then nail straight in?
How many nails per section? Size?

>>>> Depends on the post your using. If your going to use a round post
     no doweled holes, then thats how I've seen it done. I have PT 4"x4"
     square gothic posts. I wanted the look of a dowled fence, but the
     ability to remove the section of fence easily if I had to replace it.
     Not only to mention the spruce nail-on was a great price at the end of
     one season with the posts. So here's what I did. I nailed on to each post 
     a 2" x 3" PT wood block. Looks like this.


                              /\
                              )(
                              ||
                              ||
                             [||]
                              ||  
                              ||
                             [||]
                              ||
                              ||
                             [||]
                              ||
                              ||
 
    Put in two posts, and rest the fence on the blocks, and screw'em. Goes
  by pretty quick if all the holes are already done.

    It takes some time to put the blocks on, but I've already had to 
  move some sections around behind my shed area, and removal and reassembly
  was a sinch ! All the sections have 4" galvinized screws holding them on.
  Simple removal. I got this idea from an old fence building book I found
  in the library, and also asking other people about what they hated about
    thier fences after 10 years. And the reply was mostly easier to
    maintain and replace sections.
     

5. I'll probably use P.T. posts and spruce fence sections.  How long can I
expect such a structure to survive in this climate, given the finish applied in
#2?

>>>>> One neighbor that lives close by has no stain or paint, nothing on his 
     fence, and he tells me after 10 years he just statrted to replace some
     of the sections pickets. With paint your life may vary. I have only
     clear thompsons water seal on mine.

>>>>> One other thing I'd recommend is to rent a power auger that drills
      the holes, even if you have sand its worth the $50 or so to get it all
      done at once. Then use a post hole digger to clean the holes.

      Good luck !!!!!

Thanks for any recommendations.

Brian
    

GENERAL FENCING QUESTIONS:

o Is a pre-fab 6'x8' fence section really 8' long, or is this nominal size, like
lumber?  

o When installing pre-fab sections, is it easiest to do the posts two at a time
and then hang a section of fence--rather than doing all the posts at once and
then doing all the sections?  I ask because I've heard it's best to let the
concrete footings rest for 2 days before hanging the fencing. With 52 sections,
this could take me several months! ;-)

o Any tips on gate design?  I especially need one that's self-closing (for pool
safety). How do you make a wooden gate do this?

o My yard is almost perfectly flat except for a little hill or berm in one
corner that cuts an arc into the yard of about 15 feet and is about 10 feet
high at the edge of my property.  How do I go about fencing over this bump?
Or should I just fence in front of it and not make a 90-degree corner?

RE. -1

Thanks for the suggestions. I like your idea about screwing the fence sections
to the posts using blocks. But I'm not quite sure I understand. Could you
provide more details on the technique?

-Looks like you're screwing the backer rail onto the block, right?

-Your drawing shows 3 blocks, so I assume your fencing has 3 rails. Mine has
only two, so I guess I'll only need 2 blocks.  

-How do you keep the screws from interfering with the nails that hold the block
to the post?

Once again look below for >>>>



       <<< SERENA::SERENA$DUA2:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 815.21                HOW TO BUILD A WOODEN FENCE                  21 of 21
WYNTON::BMCWILLIAMS "Improvise if you have to ..."   32 lines  18-APR-1990 22:27
                     -< fencing over small hill in corner >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GENERAL FENCING QUESTIONS:

o Is a pre-fab 6'x8' fence section really 8' long, or is this nominal size, like
lumber?  

>>>> No its 8' long !

 
o When installing pre-fab sections, is it easiest to do the posts two at a time
and then hang a section of fence--rather than doing all the posts at once and
then doing all the sections?  I ask because I've heard it's best to let the
concrete footings rest for 2 days before hanging the fencing. With 52 sections,
this could take me several months! ;-)

>>>> If you did as you said in your last note pack one, cement the next. The
    two packed shold hold the one cemented. I wouldn't
 put up all the posts then
    go back and hang the fencing, unless your really good at your measurements.

o Any tips on gate design?  I especially need one that's self-closing (for pool
safety). How do you make a wooden gate do this?

>>>> I think they make a gate closer, not sure.

o My yard is almost perfectly flat except for a little hill or berm in one
corner that cuts an arc into the yard of about 15 feet and is about 10 feet
high at the edge of my property.  How do I go about fencing over this bump?
Or should I just fence in front of it and not make a 90-degree corner?

>>>> Can you fence over it, or would it look more even to go around it ?

RE. -1

Thanks for the suggestions. I like your idea about screwing the fence sections
to the posts using blocks. But I'm not quite sure I understand. Could you
provide more details on the technique?

>>> Not sure how much more you need. ?

-Looks like you're screwing the backer rail onto the block, right?

>>>> No, The fence rails rest on the block, and the screws are at an angle 
     through the 1st picket, then the rail to the post. Not through the block.
     The block will split when the screw goes through it.

-Your drawing shows 3 blocks, so I assume your fencing has 3 rails. Mine has
only two, so I guess I'll only need 2 blocks.  

>>>> Yes, three rails. Do you have a 6' x 8' fence with 2 rails. Never seen 
    them.

-How do you keep the screws from interfering with the nails that hold the block
to the post?

>>>>  Again block only used to support section of fence not used for anything 
    else. Think what it would be like trying to nail a fence between two posts
    with only two hands. The blocks are the aids, and hold some of the weight.


    

I am contemplating putting in around 400' of cedar fencing.
I have to have the fence. (Keeping my dog in, my neighbor's dog out,
my kid in, etc.)  I can't afford to have them put it up. (materials is
really streatching it!)

The plan is to have a fencing company put in the poles and gates, and deliver
all other materials.
From what I can tell, putting in the rails shouldn't take too long, but all
those (4") pickets have me worried.

The two options I can see are:
buy several cases of beer (to be consumed after the job is done!) and invite a
small horde over to nail up fence boards
or
rent a nail-gun and compressor to put up the pickets with.

Any comments?

Thanks,
Kevin

    Sounds like an exciting project!  Why not make like a good ol' yankee
    and do it all yourself with a hammer?  Just think of the satisfaction
    you'll gain, the money you'll save and the trouble you'll stay out of!
    
    If any of it comes out wrong, then you'll only have yourself to blame!
    ...and, you can drink the beer yourself ;^)!
    
    Erick
    
    ps  ayup! remember what Robert Frost said...
                                                         

With all the thirst, you'll findthat he pickets at the beginning
might lined up but the later ones will show that it's, oh, what
the heck look.

The nail gun will give you a good consistant nailing but the
nail/staples will not let you reuse the pickets when the wind
blows over the fence (or does that only happen in Colorado?

cal

>The nail gun will give you a good consistant nailing but the
>nail/staples will not let you reuse the pickets when the wind
>blows over the fence (or does that only happen in Colorado?

I haven't used a nail gun before. Why would having a gun drive the 
nails make the boards less reuseable than having a hammer drive the nails?

Kevin

    I am looking to build a split rail type fence around my front yard
    this summer.  I have seen fences that look similar to a split rail,
    but have round rails and posts rather than the common split rail.
    
    After asking several lumber yards if they stock this type of fence, 
    I got several strange looks, and no help what-so-ever.  Does anyone
    know what I should ask for, or where I should look for this type of
    fence?
    
    Larry (in Colorado)

    Re .28
    
    It's called (ta-daa) a rail fence.  Sorry I can't help with a
    supplier, unless you want one in New Hampshire :-).
    
    pbm
    

>>   It's called (ta-daa) a rail fence.  Sorry I can't help with a
>>   supplier, unless you want one in New Hampshire :-).
 
	I wouldn't mind hearing about one in the Maynard/So. N.H. area.

						Mark

    Thanks pbm...
    

    Re .30
    
    We bought a rail fence, installed, from Fences Unlimited in Salem,
    New Hampshire.  Good product and good workmanship.  Our price would
    be irrelevant because it was several years ago.  They're on Route 28
    just south of the intersection with 111, next to Salem Honda.  Don't
    have a book handy, but there's always directory assistance.
    
    pbm
    

    Feel free to post the names and contact information about suppliers of
    fence materials here.  BUT if you have information about a contractor,
    please post that information in 2034-Misc.  Thanks.
    
    Now back to your regular scheduled programming.
    
    Bruce [moderator]

    If you really plan on going down to rent a gun, be in for a surprise,
    there are only a couple of manufacturers who make a gun that shoots
    aluminum nails. I would not use anything else on a fence. Even HDG
    nails usually rust where the gun strikes them after a year. Duo
    Fast is one company that makes a gun to shoot aluminum ring shank
    nails the gun is a model DCN 225/60 the nails are 1 7/8" and a case
    is around a hundred bucks. I forget the quantity off hand. I got
    mine from Duo Fast in Wouburn.
    
    
    							Chris 

    re. .34     The $199 Harbor Freight nailer comes with aluminum nails,
    but only up to 1.75".  It will handle up to 2", but 18 gage, not the
    more common 16 gage. - Chris

    Well to answer the topic question. A picket fence is rather easy.
    Use 8ft pt 4x4's for the verticles. Put 'em in the ground a good 3'
    deep. 2 bags of quichcrete per hole. And for the rails use pt 2x4x12.
    (Sapce the 4x4 12' oc. For pickets use (believe it or not) good
    strapping. Cut to legnth, and put the point on top useing a power
    mitre box (a chop saw). You can make the pickets weather resistant
    by dipping into cupernol. Just get a legnth of gutter (5' or so)
    fill it w/ perservative , and lay each picket in for a few seconds,
    lift out, wipe off, let dry. Gate hardware is available anywhere.
    Paint the whole thing to a color of your choice...................
    

You can also buy ready made 8' sections of picket fence at Grossmans, etc.
Set your 4 x 4 PT posts exactly 8' apart, center to center, then attach the
fence sections.  You'll need to buy a few pickets to go over the area where
the two picket fence sections come together at the post. Worked out great for
me.    Prime and paint.

I used -.1's method on a part of the fence that had to be on an incline, 
although I didn't bother with the cuprinol preservative.

I also used the fancy gothic tipped PY posts at the ends and corners.

    Back a few someone needed an automatic gate closer.  In the old
    days, they used a rope, a pulley or two, and a weight.
    
    Carl

    I'm planning to put up a 40ft low fence ( 3 ft height ). The main
    purpose is to stop the baseball from rolling out to street. I have two
    questions :
    
      1. How deep a hole should I dig for the 3-ft tall post ? 
    
      2. I will be using the 4 x 4 PT wood for pole, will it be overkill to 
    	 dip it in wood preservate before putting the pole into the hole ?
    

    Usual rule of thumb is one third the length of the pole should be
    buried. For a 3 foot fence, 1 and 1/2 feet would need to be buried. It
    is not overkill to preserve the pole, I use foundation coating myself
    for this purpose.

    If you use PT lumber that is treated for 30 year ground contact, the
    only effect dipping will have is the negative one on your wallet. 
    I've seen PT lumber that was in the ground for 10 years with no
    discernable rot.  Once it was washed off and dried, you would be hard
    pressed to differentiate it from new PT lumber.  
    
    I wouldn't bother dip them.
    
    Bob

     Just remember to put some 3/4" stone in the bottom of the hole so
    any water that gets to the end of the wood will drain down and away
    from the wood.
    
    		Wayne

    This note looks like the place to ask this Question.

    I have always had some water coming into my property through my
    stockade fence and have a catch basin to take care of most of
    it. Since someone built a house up above me we are getting more
    and more water when we get 3 or more inches of rain. My next door
    neighbor, who I get along with up to now, has decided to dig a
    trench on his side to divert the water he is getting and has caused
    the water to overpower my catch basin and it overflows into my in
    ground pool. Before I got clean water and dealt with it, now I get
    loom mixed with it and twice it clouded up my pool. I spoke to him
    about it and he claims I am not get anymore water than I always did.
    He does not plan to fill in the trench. Now I know I can take him to
    court but that cost money. My question finally is:

    Can I put sand bags up against the outside of my fence and try to
    get the water to run another way? I know I own a foot or so on that
    side but he has been cutting the grass over it for 14 years. I know
    it would irritate him to see sand bags along my fence because he is
    a very fussy guy. I could put them on my side but don't know if the
    water would just go under the bags. Any advice would be appreciated.

Why do you think the water would go under the bags if they were on your side
of the fence but wouldn't if they were on his side?

    Depending on  where you live, if he's been cutting the grass there
    for  14  years,  he  may own it by "adverse possesion". You should
    check  with  your  lawyer about how to protect any property rights
    you have there.

--David

    
    
    Move!!!!  immediately.....!!!!
    
    :*)
    
     e

re. .37

I believe adverse possession requires 21 years, not 14.  I don't believe it's
automatic either.  Simply walking on the other side of your fence every once in
a while eliminates the risk.

As for the water coming on to your land...in some places it is illegal to
divert the natural flow of water onto someone else's property.  I would suggest
you check your local laws on this matter.

    Seeing as how your neighbor doesn't intend to do anything about the
    problem he is causing you, I would do whatever you see fit to do
    to keep the water out of your yard.  There's a chance that if you put
    the problem back on him, that he will see a need to negotiate with you.
    
    Maybe the two of you could build a trench along the fence line to
    divert the water to the street.
    
    Jim

    re:-1

    I spoke to him again about at least filling it with rocks so I do not
    get the loam washout. I had a person come over and dig out my
    interceptor drain that I have in that corner that was not taking the
    amount he was now sending me. I also have some old water bags that
    keep my pool cover secure in the winter that now leak. I am going to
    fill them with sand and put them up along my stockade fence and
    hope that the flow does go back in his yard. I never wish for too much
    rain but hope when we do get a lot it works. Stay tuned.

    He would never agree to dig a trench along the outside of my fence and
    I do not own more than a foot over there. Just enough to walk on. I was
    planning to put the sand bags on the outside so he could see them, but
    he would probably throw them out when it was dark or no one home.

    Here is a fence question I haven't seen yet....
    
    Has anyone had any experience with PVC fences?  I saw a beautiful white
    picket fence recently that until you actually touched it could tell it
    was PVC type plastic.  This seems to solve my problem acout wanting a
    white picket fence WITHOUT any maintenance, but what about costs?
    
    If this is too expensive, does anyone have any advice about attaining a
    white fence, ie...stain verses paint...pine verses cedar.
    
    Thanks...KC

RE:.0
>but what about costs?

	My wife and I looked into the PVC fence a few years back and could
not believe the cost. If I remember it was in the $3-4/foot range. We were
looking at 300 feet of fence. We went the wooden fence/stain route and are
very happy with it. It was made from Pressure Treated pine and a solid stain.

	We also thought the PVC fence would shatter in a few years.
    
    
    	Bill

    There's a discussion on PVC fencing in DELNI::EQUITATION.
    

    I have a post and rail fence with a couple of rotted posts that need to
    be replaced.  If I use pressure treated posts will they weather to the
    same gray patina as the rails?  Are cedar posts as rot resistant?  If
    the answer is no to both questions I'll probably buy regular posts and
    coat them with roofing tar as suggested in another note.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    I am planning to build a small wood picket fence. It will be only about
    24 ft long ( 3 - 8ft sections ) and about 3 ft in height. The main
    purpose of this fence is to stop the baseball from rolling out to the
    street from the yard. Since the fence may not stay permanently ( may be
    removed in 3 years ). I would liket to keep the work to minimum. What
    is the minimum depth the poles ( 4 x 4 PT ) should be into the ground ?
    Does it still require to go below frost line ? ( I know this has been
    asked in .19. Reply in .20 is irrelevant since fence does not support
    heavy load ).  Is there any regulation ( or build code requirement )
    that specifies the minimum depth ?
    

    
    There is no building code on fences. If you want to do minimum work,
    then put the fences in just deep enough so the fence dosn't fall over.
    Two feet should do it.
    
    Mike

Re: .22

I don't believe it is true that there is no building code for fences.  At
least not universally.  Best check with your local officials first.  If
nothing else, there may be a setback requirement.

			Steve

    There almsot certainly is a setback requirement from the road and
    their may be a height restriction, but you shouldn't have to worry
    at 3'.  Just check for rules first, so you don't need to change it
    later.
    As far as how deep to put the posts, I'd say 18" would be enough.
    Just so the fence won't fall over.  You're not going to have cows 
    leaning on it.  It may heave up a little, but who cares.  

I'm now in the process of putting up a fence very similar to yours.
Its 4x4 posts, 3' high. This is for a vege garden.

I chose to make the posts about 1' into the ground. That way,
an 8' 4x4 can be cut in two to make two posts.

I've put up 3 sides so far... and it hasn't fallen yet! (been standing
a whole week now :-) )

    re: .25
    I was thinking about cutting the 4x4x8ft  PT wood in half and have 2
    poles. One ft in the ground and 3ft above.  If there are 4x4x10ft
    avaiable, I may want to go with it and have 2ft in the ground.
    
    As far as set back from the street, I presume you meant the sidewalk,
    it should not be a problem. Many houses in my area have fence that are
    built right at the property line that met the sidewalk.
    
    Looks like there will be some " digging " to be done the next few days, 
    if weather permited.

Why rip a 4X4 instead of using 2X4's?  PT sawdust is not nice stuff.

BTW, I've got a 4' high stockade fence nailed to PT 2X4's that are buried about
18" deep (that's where the rocks got big).  It seems to be holding up fine.  

>Why rip a 4X4 instead of using 2X4's?  PT sawdust is not nice stuff.
>

i think the gist was to slice it in half the other way... take
one 4x4x8' and make it two 4x4x4'. these then are your posts, putting
about a foot in the ground.

    when digging the posts, get yourself a post hole digger, not your basic
    shovel. Having this little beauty will save you enormous time and
    aggravation trying to level/firm up the posts.... and maake sure you
    tamp them doen good.  water and repeat after drying...
    
    fra

    re.  .29
    
    Even better, rent a power post hole auger.  My local rental (NJ) has
    two types- the 2 person type (with gas motor in the middle of the x
    bars) and a one person type with separate motor, gas powered, and
    digging 'head' with auger.
    
    No experience yet, but am planning on renting the one person type later
    this spring.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    Way back in my callow youth, I rented the one person type that
    consisted of a motor on 4 wheels that drove a flexible shaft to the
    auger.  It works great.  However, the lot was an old gravel pit, which
    means 90% rock, 10% smaller rock.  ;-)   The machine would beat the
    heck out of the 6 to 12 inch rocks, enough so that a helper could pull
    them out of the hole.  
    
    Be forewarned, though, that the unit is held such that a large padded
    area rests against your hip, and you also hold 2 hand grips.  After we
    did 500' of 10' post and rail, we had a bruised area of about 2 square
    feet on our sides from the pad!  Kinda pretty black, blue, yellow
    color.  Didn't hurt too bad, either, after a couple sixes.  
    
    Enjoy!
    
    Carl

    I havn't had good luck with the mechanized post diggers, great if the
    digging in easy, but if theres rock, your outa luck... 
    
    I'm just now realizing why the the old fences are so wavey... and I
    thought it was for strength... ;^)
    
    Fra

    
    If you can't dig a post with the mechanized post diggers, then how the
    hell can you do it with the hand powered??? Rocks are rocks, and are
    just a pain with a mechanized post digger as with a hand unit. I've
    used both (many time), and I'll stick with the mechanized one any day.
    The one man unit is the only way to go. Those 2 man units are much
    harder to operate. And they require 2 strong people (which usually
    rules out ones spouce).
    
    Mike

    I guess my point is that if your renting one with the expectation of 
    not having to do any hand digging, thenm your in for a big surprise,
    especially in New England.  Hit a big rock, and your gonna have to dig
    by hand anyways... course if you have a ton of holes to dig, it would
    be a godsend... dig till you hit rock then excavate by hand till you
    clear the obstruction, then continue with the motorized rig.
    
    then theres always the expense of renting the thing...
    
    Fra

There is also the issue of tree roots.  We rented the one-person model.  We must
have dug about 100 holes.  We didn't have too much trouble where the ground was
free of obstructions.  We did have problems with tree roots and rocks.  But,
we managed to get around them.  The pick axe helped.

By the end, my hands were blistered something fierce.  But, I would rent it
again.  I would have hated to do all those holes by hand.

Ed..

    I've tried all the previous methods talked about. In the end,you need
    a small number of tools. This is the method for New England "soil"
    
    1. Crow Bar   Get a good 5 foot one. about 25 lbs. This tool will 
                  free the rocks that you will find. I also use it to help
                  pick at the soil,down in the hole.
    
    2. Post hole shovel   This is two shovels with two handles bolted
                   together that you use to scoop out the loose rocks. It
                  is good for lifting out "loose" soil. It does not break
                  up the soil very well. That is what the crow bar does.
    
    3. A nice pair of gloves     Your hands will thank you.
    
    4. Six cans of COLD beer   Drink only after the work is done.
    
    
    
    Marc H.

I live on a granite ledge.  I put in 4 lamp posts along the drive.  It took
most of an afternoon to dig the holes.  Here is my approach:

	1) Locate rock.  This done by swinging a pick over your head and 
	   letting it pierce the ground surface.  1 blow = 1 rock on average.

	2) Excavate rock.  Remove soil from top and sides of rock.  This 
	   will require digging a hole about 3 feet in diameter.  If the 
	   effort to excavate the rock yeilds a hole larger than 3 feet
	   start a new hole 'cause you are never going to move that sucker.

	3) Move the rock.  Get a fulcrum set near the object to move and
	   the super crow bar.  Place bar, stand on end and bounce.  If the
	   earth starts to crack and the rock moves, you've just about got 
	   it licked.  If not, return to step 2) and keep digging.

	4) Raise rock.  With your right foot deftly holding down the bar,
	   insert small stones under the subject rock.  Move fulcrum and
	   bar and repeat until the rock is raised out of its natural 
	   setting.  It is best to not put your hands under the rock (the
	   deft part about the right foot is important)

	5) Remove rock.  Lower the edge of the "post hole" (now the size of
	   a Boston city pothole) by digging a ramp out the side.  Now roll
	   the rock as best you can out of the hole.  Warn the neighbors on 
	   the down hill side of the post hole.

	6) Move rock off site.  This can be done by rolling the rock with
	   frequent breaks for cold refreshing beverages.  An alternate
	   approach, if the rock is smaller than normal, is to tip over your
	   wheel barrow, roll the rock up to and on the lip, get a good
	   purchase on the rock and lip of the wheel barrow and using the
	   wheel as a pivot right the wheel barrow with the rock inside it.
	   Now wheel the rock to the desired location.

	7) Insert post and backfill or change your mind and put in a swimming 
	   pool (the hole will be big enough by the time you are done)

That's how I dig post holes in New England.

Stan

According to my book on New England geology, everybody in the region lives on
a rock ledge.  What you see when you go through a cut on an expressway -- a
fringe of dirt clinging to a massive layer of rock -- is absolutely typical
of anywhere you might dig down.  Sometimes the ledge might be 20 feet down
and sometimes it might be poking through the surface, but it's probably 
there.

(Somewhere in this or the GARDEN notesfile, a new resident of New England
reports on his practice of *burying* the rocks he comes across.  I get a good
chuckle every time I think about someone digging a hole, finding a rock, and
then digging another hole to bury it, finding a rock . . . )

  re:    <<< Note 1292.33 by KOALA::DIAMOND "No brag, Just fact." >>>

  Mike,

  The danger is that in just the right (i.e., wrong) circumstances, that
  mechanical post hole digger can catch on a rock, augur itself into the 
  ground right up to the hilt, then stall out.  Then you get to dig it
  out by hand anyway.  And with that rental unit in the ground, you can't
  be as frisky with the pry bar and pickaxe, so it's a bit more difficult.

  I helped a friend use one to do four or five postholes and I think I'd
  just do it by hand if I had to do it again (we had to dig the unit out
  twice).  
    
  JP    

    It wasn't too bad. I finished putting the poles last weekend. It took
    me ( and my 10 yrs old son ) 1/2 day to dig the holes ( 6 total 20 to
    22 inches deep ). We used crawbar and mach. hole digger. We spent most
    time using the crawbar removing rocks than using the digger. Although
    there were lots of rocks, luckily they were small ( the biggest were
    about 6 to 8 inches dia. ). 
    
    

    I need to paint a small fence. What type of paint is best suit for
    fence : latex or solid color ( white ) stain ? oil base or other(?) ?
    Recommendation on some good brands of paint ?
    
    

    If it were me, I'd go with a solid color stain. Doesn't peel and can be
    reapplied as needed without scraping, etc. 
    
    

    Re:1292.40
    
    You call those rocks?  Those(6-8 inches) are pebbles!
    
    :) :) :)
    
    Marc H.

    re: -1  Sounds good. Is there a particular brand you can recommend ? I
    don't mind to pay a little more if the paint last longer.
    

A little off the subject but still in line with the rocks conversation:

This past weekend I decided to get rid of the stumps at the edge of my lawn.  
When my lawn was installed 5 years ago I wanted the guy on the bulldozer to
remove all the stumps, but since they weren't exactly on the lawn area they
weren't in his bid so...  This promised to be a relatively easy job since the
builder, when he bulldozed the lot, buried the base of the trees (thus the dead
trees and hence the stumps).  I was just going to dig down about a foot or so,
take the chainsaw and cut off the stump and backfill.  Assuming I didn't try 
to cut too much granite with the chainsaw this should be an easy job.  Well,
I used the axe a lot.

I learned a couple of things.  Stumps act as rock catchers when dirt is bull-
dozed around them.  The side of the stump toward the house was basically solid
rocks.  The volume of rocks removed was significant.  The removal of the stumps
proved to be the secondary effort.  I removed 6 stumps ranging from 4 to 8 
inches in diameter.  I left the 1+ footers for this coming weekend.  The 6
took all afternoon Saturday.  Talk about a heart stress test!  Running a pick,
axe and shovel will do it.  Lots of rests and serious lemonade are recommended.

I learned what termites can do.  I knew the little buggers were in my front
woods area (but not the back area?).  Out front are two of the 1+ foot stumps.
I went to excavate them and they looked normal.  I knocked off some of the bark 
and they were swiss cheese.  I could sink a pickaxe right into them.  Guess I
better redouble my house protection efforts.  These two stumps will form the 
basis of my yearly pyromaniacal cleanup efforts.  Taste hot death, termites!

Stan (who can still feel those weekend muscles on Wednesday)

    Buried stumps (and other scrap wood) are termite heaven and will cause
    numerous problems in the future, especially if the hole is near your
    home. I know it sames the builders money, but they should be shot for
    putting one anywhere near a home.
    
    Eric

    I'm building a picket fence.  Since it's going to be stained I'm using
    strapping material for the pickets.  Since this stuff sits uncovered in 
    the lumber yard it's pretty wet.  I'm letting it dry to the point that the 
    surface is dry but I imagine that the water content is pretty high.  
    I'm nailing the pickets to the supporting members with two nails at
    each point
    
     My question is, since this wood is so wet, am I going to end up with a
    bunch of cracked pickets when the wood finally does dry out completely. 
    Or, is the width of the wood (2 3/8") small enough so that shrinkage
    isn't a real issue?  Also, can you paint or stain over wet wood.
    
    George

    I've used strapping for a variety of things and have yet to have a
    piece split from drying.
    
    Edd

    I used rough green wood for the picket fence around my garden (backed
    with chicken wire to keep out the critters) and the only problem I ran
    into was the saw binding more than usual. I won't discuss what it means
    to cut 320 pickets...

    Any opinions on the difference between spruce and cedar for durability?
    We are planning to install a spaced-picket fence, mainly to keep our
    toddler IN the yard.  We plan to paint and carefully maintain it, since
    it's going to be in the front of the house.  Had a former installer of
    fences say that the spruce pickets won't hold up, that they split and
    twist as they "dry".  Since the difference in price between spruce and
    cedar could add up, we still want to try the spruce.  Anybody have any
    trouble with spruce?
    Sarah
    

I have a cheap spruce stockade fence, and I haven't had any problems other
than sap bleeding through the paint in a couple of places.  I've only had it
a year, so I can't vouch for its long-term success.  The main advantage
of cedar is that you don't have to paint it, but if you're planning to keep
it painted anyway, I doubt if cedar worth the extra money.

    I just finished a 56 ft picket fence using strapping lumber which I
    think is spruce.  The fence is in the sun all day is dry and I haven't 
    had any problems.  My fathers fence of the same material has been up for 
    2 years with no problems.
    
    George

    
    
    I have a spruce picket fence, only about 16 feet, around my out side
    A/C compressor. Keeps little hands away from the fan. I put that up
    last year and didn't paint them. They've dried out one or two have
    minor cracks. I'd recommend what ever you attach them with that you
    drill a small pilot hole first then screw them on with galvanized
    screws. Makes repair a snap.
    
      On Spruce stockade fencing. Four years ago I installed 50 sections of
    fencing around my back yard. Before I did this I checked into the
    price of cedar, fence would have cost $5000.00+, out of our price range
    at that time. I went over and taked to a neighbor that also has a
    spruce stockade about his experience, how long its lasted,
    maintainence, etc. His fence, about 60 sections, has been up for 10
    years, 14 now. For the most part he's had to replace a few rotted
    rails, and as they rot he has to replace the posts with PT posts ( PT
    wasn't that big or avaliable back then ), and it doesn't have any
    paint. Just natural weathered look. 
    
      Since I've put up my fence, I've had to replace two pickets that
    got broke somehow, and one that bowed. I haven't stained or painted
    the fence, and it looks great. The whole fence cost me $1100.00 with
    gothic posts. I hits the sale at the end of the season on the fence,
    and I had to pick though 150+ posts to find all the good ones. So if
    it lasts 10 years with some maintainence. I'll be happy.
    
      Here's what the neighbor that has the 14 year fence suggested to 
    keep maintainence down.
    
      - Use only PT posts 
      - Dip the posts in a bucket of roofing tar ( protects them even more)
      - If the sections are doweled don't nail them, drill a hole and use
        galvanized screws. This makes it much easier to replace the
        sections. I have nail on sections ( not nailed to the post, but
        rather hung on post hangers between the two square gothic posts,
        and screwed. Its even easier to replace or take down a screwd section
        for any reason, and the back rails are only 2x3's) 
      - Don't paint it unless you really want more work.( Opinion :-) )
      - Cement posts at gate areas, others just set and pack with gravel.
      
    out of 60 sections he's only put up 5 new ones

I am moving into a house on a busy street in MA.  Is there any particular type 
of fencing material that can be put across the front of the house to cut down
on the noise of cars whizzing by at 30-40 mph?  I know that there are
acoustical fences on highways (Rt. 91 in CT has them).  Is there any such thing
for homes?

My home inspector told me that adding a fence would amplify the noise and
direct it toward the backyard.  Does anyone have any opinions about this?  
Is there any way for the homeowner to lessen traffic noise with fences (or
shrubs)?  Are there any recommendations?

30 to 40 mph is whizzing?  Oh well, to each their own...

Anything that stands between you and the noise will cut it to some
extent.  To be a useful reduction, you'd have to put up a solid fence. 
There are usually pretty unattractive and make the property feel small
(since they block sight as well as sound.)  Using high shrubbery --
like privet hedge -- is less unsightly, but it will take a longish time
for them to grow very high, and they'll still make the place seem closed in.

It's important to note that the noise reduction will only be
significant where the blocking material is between your ear and the
noise source.  This means that the second floor (if you have one) will
still be noisy.

One thing that surprised me when renovating my older home was that
replacing the old loose, single-pane windows with tight double pane
ones cut the noise level quite a bit.  If you have older construction,
you can get a double benefit since it cuts sound and heat loss, as well
as being effective all over the house. (Replacing the windows also does
not have the aesthetic impact of a fence.)

Finally, I can tell you that I've lived next to train tracks and
highways and even now live on a reasonably busy street where the cars
go by at 40 to 50. The human mind has a wonderful ability to tune out
noise that is routine.  If you just give it a few months, you may find
that you don't hear the cars. (Unless they blow their horns a lot.)

>>>==>PStJTT

    Fences can in theory amplify or resonant the noise.  The solid fence
    acts like a drum head and reverberates the sound.  

    If you exit I-190 onto Gold Star Blvd in Worcester, you'll see a
    fence designed to deaden noise. There was an article on the fence
    in one of the local papers some years ago. Apparently the staggered
    design of the fence panels assists in breaking up sound waves. It's
    built like this....
    
             _____----____----____----____----____----____
    
    (hey, character cell graphics, y 'know?)
    
    Anywho, you may want to check that particular fence out, as it was
    designed to deaden street noise, and appears to work...
    
    Edd

    Re .3
    
    Just a minor mod:
    
    	------	------  ------
    	    ------  ------
    The overlap means that the fence is a visual block as well as an
    acoustical one.  You have to be within a few inches to see through
    the fence.  This also gets around the resonant problem of a solid,
    single-plane fence.  Finally, it acts as a windbreak and snow fence.
    
    PBM
    

    Yep. you're right. I just didn't put much effort into the graphics...
    
    Edd

To work, a sound barrier must be between the source of the sound and you (as 
someone said earlier).  You will still get reflected noise and the second 
floor will not benefit much.  Another consideration is the MASS of the sound 
barrier.  The thinner and lighter a barrier is the higher the frequencies 
stopped.  If you want to stop the low frequencies go for something solid like 
brick or cement.

In addition, you can tune the barrier to block certain frequencies.  To do this
you have to find a material that has resonant frequency quite different (due to
composition, size and shape) from the one you want to tune out.

Alternatively you can purchase a "white noise" generator.  This surrounds you 
with noise of all frequencies and the ear gets used to it and tunes it out.  It
is like the constant air conditioning machinery noise here at DEC ;-)

Stan

Another great white noise gnerator is a fountain.

    Thanks for all of the info.  A point of clarification-- the house is 70
    years old and the walls provide a fine sound barrier. I am concerned
    about the noise as can be heard from the backyard which is level in
    relationship to the road.  If I was really fanatical about it, it seems like
    the best solution would be to get a broadcast quality tape recorder and 
    spectrum analyze the sound and then go off into a lab to characterize
    the frequency absorption of various materials.  Maybe in another
    lifetime...  
    
    
    Judy

    I realize the question was about the back yard, but road noise heard
    inside the house can sometimes take an unusual route.  In a ranch style
    house I owned, I had enlarged the gable end vents to get better attic
    ventilation, and also got to hear conversations from pedestrians 80
    feet away!  When I increased attic insulation from 6 to 12 inches, the
    conversations went away.
    
    Carl

	I'm planning on putting up a stocade type fence this weekend and need
a few pointers.


	. Do you install just one section at a time and wait for the concrete
	  to set before doing the next one ?

	. Do you put up both end posts first and run a straight line between
	  them, then put up the sections and posts in between ?

	. Should I sink the poles in concrete ?

	. How do you handle a slight grade ? Do you follow the contour of the
	  land or do you stagger the sections at different heights ?


	Thanks,
	-Steve-

Based upon past experience, the rules are probably similar but different
from one state/city/county/etc to another.  Here's my experience (I recently
put up a fence around my property);

The plot plan filed with the title company when the property was purchased
AND the local building/planning department (should?) have a plot plan with the
exact dimensions and location of you property.  If you can find a couple of
reference points (usually rebar or pipe) at some corner of your proprerty
you might be able to do it yourself.  If you really want to be safe, have
a surveyor do it!

As for potential problems if you don't get it right...

As a previous reply stated, an improperly determined property line can lead
to legal issues.  One of which is the forfeiture(sp?) of property.  For
example, say the fence is placed two feet in on your property and therefore
makes the two feet usable by your neighbor.  In california, it this not 
contested within a certain time period (I believe 7 years), the property
becomes your neighbors if he wants to take it.  I forget what the legal term
for this is.  Also, it can make things very sticky when your try to sell
your property (at least in Ca.).  Disputes over who 'really' owns the property
when the title company has to check it out.

I'm not sure what type of fence your are referring to when calling it a 
'stockade' fence but, if you want a straight fence, I'd put in the end posts
first, string a line between them, then space off the other posts along
the line.  Concrete around the posts (if properly done), usually will make
them last longer (less rot).  Even if the posts are placed in concreate
they should be treated with creosote or something similar to extend their
life.  As far as staggering for a slope, hey use your imagination, this is
usually a matter of 'what look do you like best?'.

Oh yeah.  The 'legal' height for fences in my area is 6'  anything esle
you need a variance for.  Typically they are only granted for very special
requirements.  Sometimes if you have a pool you can get one.

Regards,
jdh

re: 400.5                  Installing stockade fence                     5 of 5
>
>As for potential problems if you don't get it right...
>
>As a previous reply stated, an improperly determined property line can lead
>to legal issues.  One of which is the forfeiture(sp?) of property.  For
>example, say the fence is placed two feet in on your property and therefore
>makes the two feet usable by your neighbor.  In california, it this not 
>contested within a certain time period (I believe 7 years), the property

I found out, like in New Hampshire (Nashua to be exact), one of my neighbors
put in a six foot chaine link fence. Local codes required him to grant a 1 foot
easement to all abutting property (give up one foot around). He could,
since the fence was a percieved benefit to his neighbors (abutters); he COULD 
HAVE asked his neighbors to share the cost of the fence.

The bottom line becomes: There ae so many variables in different localities;
it might be advantageos to not only check with the local inspector an planning
commission; but a lawyer as well. 

/Bob

    At least in Massachusetts, you can/should check with your local zoning 
official, often the building inspector in the smaller towns. They are the 
ones who deal with fences, height of fences, variances, etc, all the time 
and can point you towards the local zoning code and any perceived problems 
that may come up. I wouldn't bother calling a lawyer, particularly to check 
a neighbors fence. The zoning code enforcement person/board should give you 
what you need to know. 

    When I worked with the Building Insp in my town 14 years ago, we had a 
steady stream of folks in the office asking questions around fences and all 
that stuff. We could go right to the zoning code and state laws that 
applied and quote them chapter and verse as to what was legit and not 
legit. Even had to settle a couple of fence height disputes along the way.

    Vic

    I'm going to assume that you know where the fence is going, and will
    meet any code requirements.
    
    When I install a fence on a grade or other iregular surface, I define
    the two ends, usualy by setting one end post at the coorrect hight,
    level and all of that good stuff, and i use a temp post (pipe 2x4 ect)
    set about 3 feet past the other end, and run a line between the ends.
    now go dig all of your holes to the correct depth, plus about 3", and
    set up your fence, level each section and back fill the holes about 1/2
    way (don't bother with cement, this will just make the posts rot
    faster, and when someone knocks down a post with a car, it is much
    harder to replace).
    
    At this point your fence should be in place and straight, but since you
    doug all ot the holes 3' to deep the height of the fence will be
    eratic. The  reason for diging to deep is that know you can eye ball
    the fence, and set the hight to what looks good, by raseing a section
    at a time using a bar/shovel/2x4 or whatever as a lever next to the
    post. 
    
    This method lets you adjust the fence to the land so that when looking
    down the  fence along the top, it gives the appearence of a smoth flow,
    and in the long rung it's how the thing looks accross the top that
    matters, you can add or subtract dirt as required from the bottom when
    you finished.
    
    HINT. when backfilling a hole, only go aout half way, and when the post
    is in it's final position use a 2x4 and pack the soil all around the
    post. Move to the next post and do the same thing, continueionjg to the
    end, start back adding 3 to 6" s of soil and pack the soil. If a post
    should loosen up at some future time dig down 1 side and pack the soil
    using the 2/4 method, and then repack the other side.
    
    Have fun!

Howdy,
	I'm having some problems with my neighbor and my 6' stockade fence, and 
would like to hear if anyone has had similar experiences, and if so, what was 
the circumstances, and outcome.
	I recently had a house built on a new culdesac in Nashua.  My back/side
yard abutts two other properties directly, and a third where three properties 
meet at the point of a triangle.  The tip of the triangle touches the culdesac
and I'm on one side of the triangle, not inside it.
	Prior to putting up the fence in June last year, I did the standard
check with city hall, understand the ordaninces and had spoken with all
three neighbors and none had objections.  Each had their own thoughts on what
I should do, or what they'd like to do, but there were good relationships with 
all three, and in the conversations I explained and each understood my reasons,
and actually agreed with me.  The two direct abutters were asked about splitting
the costs, and each said money was tight, perhaps next year and if we did that,
they'd want something different...my wife and I discussed it and decided to 
go it alone and put up part last year, and part this year to totally enclose
the back yard.  
	So in June'ish I put it up, and enclosed 2/3 of my back and side yard.
Now comes the fun...the day I put it up, the third neighbor(the one my property
touches on the tip of a triangle) was out in his front yard puttering around
and watching us.  He never said a word to us.  The next morning his wife
stopped me, and climbed up one side and down the other side of me, telling me
she wanted me to take down the last section, angle it into my property at a 45
degree angle, and taper the fence from 6' to 3'. Said she'd be willing to plant
a tree and maintain the grass in that area for me.  Mind you, I had not met
this lady, and didn't even know her name.  My first reaction was no, it was my
property and I was within all city ordaninces.  By the time she finally shut up
and let me talk, I said I don't know but will think about it.  She said yeah
you think about it, and stormed away. 
	Three months go by, no contact with them, (I didn't change the fence)
then all of a sudden I get a letter from a lawyer saying that they are going to
sue me for a 'Spite Fence' unless we remove an agreed/ predetermined amount of
the fence.  I went to city hall, told them what I did, showed plot plans
etc, they asked what the problem was.  I showed the letter from the lawyer, and
they said if you followed the ordinances, no problem.   I decided to check with
a lawyer, who explained to me what a spite fence was...it didn't fit. 
	My lawyer asked that I speak with them in person and try to work
something out... I did, but made sure my wife was there to hear what he had to
say...  Long story short, he said he wants two 8' sections removed, if I
didn't, we'd go to court, and even though he knows it's not a spite fence, he
was going to lie to a jury to get his way.  He also commented that he was going
to start trouble with others in the neighborhood unless they 'straightened out
their act', because he was not going to let any neighbor devalue his property
by the looks of the other properties...... 
	After speaking with my lawyer and contemplating things, my wife and I
told our lawyer to offer removing one 8' section of the fence....just to try to
keep the peace, be neighborly and try to see their point of view.  He did, 
two months and finally a response from their lawyer that they're glad to see
we want to settle things amicably, but 8' was not enough, they now want 20'
(which relates to 2.5 sections of fence).  
	So with this third neighbor, it's gone from no problem when I first
spoke with him, to angle one section, to remove 2 sections, to remove 2.5
sections.  I won't explain beyond here, because this is where it sits now,
but I'm interested to hear if any others have had a neighbor from hell like
this and what came of it... or, any recommendations.......be nice now.....
	FYI, the two direct abutters have no problem with the fence.  Actually,
both told me they are pleased with it, one because it helps contain his 9 month
old daughter in the summer, and the other because he gained 6" of land.

Joe

I'd put the other section back up and let the neighbor sue.  You should
put in a counterclaim for a frivolous suit to reclaim your legal fees.

			Steve

    
    	Re: .0
    
    	First off, him lying to a jury doesn't change the legal definition
    of "spite fence" -- it would only try to make the jury think that the
    neighbor used the wrong phrase accidently.  That doesn't change
    whether or not the fence is legal.
    
    	Second, your neighbor actually told you -- with your wife present
    to act as a witness -- that he'd lie to the jury??!!??  Oh boy, I'd
    love to see the jury's reaction when you are up on the stand and your
    attorney asks you to "please recount the discussion you had with your
    neighbor on day X...".  :-)  Tell _your_ lawyer what happened here and
    I bet a nicely put letter from your lawyer to your neighbor's lawyer
    about this discussion could end the whole matter.  (Though it won't
    return the neighborhood to peace.)
    
    							-craig

	I can tell what a spite fence is from the context, but, can somebody
	tell what constitutes a spite fence from a legal standpoint.


	Thanks

RE: .0


 Make 'em take you to court.

 You are perfectly within your rights fo fence off your property period.

 Especially since it follows code and you obviously have the towns blessing.

    Please keep us posted. (yuk yuk. I couldn't help it).

    
    	Let's see.  .1 - I haven't removed anything as yet on the fence.  
    			 And after this, don't plan to....
    		    .2 - Yeah, this guy is a real turkey.  FYI, it's
                         documented and on file with my lawyer...dated and 
    			 signed.  My lawyer did send a 'nice' letter, and 
    			 even informed the other lawyer in it that this guy
    			 admitted there was no spite.  After that, we got
    			 the letter saying 20'.  FYI, we discussed
    			 frivilous and I believe I can now prove it.
    		    .3 - A spite fence, according to my lawyer, is where
    			 you intentionally put up a fence to block out 
    			 someone, because of animosity between you and
                         them.  THis isn't the case here, because prior to
    			 installing the fence, we had a pleasant
                         relationship, and I even referred a friend to do
    			 his landscaping...which he hired!
    		    .4 - That's pretty much where's it's at.  I've tried
                         being understanding and realistic with his
    			 concerns to no avail.  
    			
    	Anyone heard of things like this happening before??  Any experiences?
    
    Joe

    		    .3 - A spite fence, according to my lawyer, is where
    			 you intentionally put up a fence to block out 
    			 someone, because of animosity between you and
                         them.  THis isn't the case here, because prior to
    			 installing the fence, we had a pleasant
                         relationship, and I even referred a friend to do
    			 his landscaping...which he hired!
    
    I'd have to wonder about this!  I don't have a friendly relation with
    one of my neighbor and plan on putting in a 6 foot fence (or 4ft fence 
    plus hedge) to 1) contain our child on our property 2) contain our dog 
    3) add privacy to our side yard.  If in doing so, it keeps him off my
    property well... 
    
    (from fence installing document I got from town hall)
    As long as the fence is 6ft or under and not painted a terrible color,
    it's not a spite fence.  Too put one in over 6 ft, I need a variance 
    (town hall) which I'm sure he'd block.  The town hall did tell me my 
    hedge can grow as tall as I like, as can any trees on my property.  
    Since my house is brown, I plan on staining the fence brown, too.  
    Guess I'd better check with a lawyer about brown being an offensive color.

	    It sounds to me like the husband (neighbor) never spared a 
	second thought to your building the fence.  His wife sounds like
	quite an aggressive woman (you said be nice) and I'd bet she got
	this ball rolling.  I hope you do well in your court battle.  It 
	always irks me to see the things people go suing other people for 
	these days.
	    Come planting time, I'd put in a double row of privits (hedge).  
	In 5 years, they can grow to be 8 to 10 feet tall.
	    

  .7
    I don't remember anything in the Nashua ordaninces about colors, but
    I've left the fence 'natural' so it doesn't affect me....  If you're
    having problems with a neighbor already, yikes, putting up a fence
    should prove very challenging on the nerves....  I'd make sure you're
    within all city limits.....   I am, and I had a great relationship with 
    this guy, friendly, neighborly etc...until after put up the fence.
    
  .8  
    I agree with you....I believe his wife is behind the whole thing, but
    the day my wife and I spoke with him (and he talked about lying), he
    was extremely arrogant, forceful, and rude.  The first I had ever seen
    him act this way.... we'll see what happens this spring when I finish
    the fence...    because ...   For Xmas,  my wife and I became prowd 
    parents to a bouncing Dalmation Puppy and need some way to let him run, 
    given the leash law in Nashua.
    
    Joe

    As long as your in line with the town ordinance I wouldn't worry.
    I wouldn't even look at these "nice" neighbors. Let them take you to
    court and counter sue them.
      A friend of mine wanted an 8 ft fence around his pool and the
    neighbor went against it with the town for no real reason. The town
    said 6 ft max so he built a 4 ft high wall and put the 6 ft fence on
    top of it. The outcome was that the neighbor realized he should have 
    kept his trap shut.
      When I lived in my first house the hedges were about three ft tall
    and after living there for a few months we found the people next door 
    were real nosy. They spent more time checking on my yard then their
    own. Well those hedges were about 8 ft tall a few years later, and
    still growing when I moved.

    If you want a truly impenetrable hedge that will keep out *anything*,
    get some multiflora rosebushes.  They are absolutely incredible.
    They spread vigorously, grow 12' tall with ease, develops stalks
    2" in diameter, and have thorns that will shred your clothes.  The
    flowers are pretty, but otherwise they are miserable to have around.
    They *would* make an incredible hedge though.

    Thanks for the info Steve.  I dunno if things have gone to the point
    where I want to 'draw blood', but it does make for some interesting
    thoughts.......hum...
    

    SInce we're on the subject of fences, I'd like to toss out a question.
    
    I put up a run of fence along a part of one of my property lines and 
    plan on extending it all the way this spring.  My property is odd
    shaped so in order to make for a nice clean corner, I would have to
    leave a portion of our land outside the fence line.  Am I in any way
    compromising my claim to that portion of the land outside the fence
    line?  Can my neighbor make claim to that land if he uses it?
    
    Finally, I have a general idea of my property line but I have not had
    it surveyed so I cannot be precise.  Are utility poles always on public
    land?  My street does not have sidewalks in front of my house but there
    are some in front of the houses on either side.  One neighbor says that
    the line formed by the inside edge of the sidewalks leading to the
    street is where the city land begins.  The other has extended their
    fence all the way to the line formed by the utility poles.  Without a
    survey, is there a rule of thumb that I could use to determine whether
    the sidewalks are on public or private property?
    
    Many thanks,
    
    
    Marv
     

    
    	I wouldn't take any chances with where the property line is....
    	have your lot surveyed.  It may cost a little now, but you 
    	could save a LOT of money, aggravation later (legal fees,
    	having the fence removed, etc.)
    
    	Ed

    If you do not in some way actively reinforce your claim or rights to
    that land, you may indeed lose it. Like once a year you send a
    certified latter stating that the land which your neighbor is now using
    for a garden is actually yours. 'It;s ok to grow lettuce there, but
    understand it IS my land' will protect your rights.

    Regarding your question on the sidewalk.  I went to the city hall and 
    inquired how close I could go to the curb/street; there's no sidewalk
    on my property.  Around and around I went(city hall you know.) and I
    finally found out that the city owns 25' from the center of the street.
    Now in my case, from the center there's 14' of tar, and 11' of grass.
    For liability reasons, I was told IF the city found out I put a fence
    in that 11', they'd have to tell me to remove it.  Now if I didn't 
    remove it, the person I spoke with told me that the city was no longer
    liable, and seeing as I am the owner of the fence......  He also said 
    there were violations all over town, and normally if no one griped(hahaha)
    the city probably wouldn't find out. 
    
    If I were you, I'd check with the street department or your
    sub-division plans, to find out what the city owns first.
    

    I was told the only one who cared was the highway department.  They
    like the fence about 6ft back from the edge of the tar so they have
    room for snowbanks.  Many fences (or stones to keep the kids off
    the lawns) are within 2 ft of the road.  Also, some folks put up
    reflectors right on the edge of the tar in the winter to guide the snow 
    plows which leaves NO room for snow banks.  
    
    I also was told that if they have to dig up pipes in front of your
    house, they will "do their best" not to damage the fence.  However...

    To open an OLD note...
    
    I was wondering if there was any treatment for stockade fence?  
    ie/ should I treat it w/ Thompsons Water Seal?  or just let it go?
    The type I'm getting is NOT cedar(probably spruce or pine).
    
    Thanks
    	-										
    John

>    I was wondering if there was any treatment for stockade fence?  

	    Seems to me that the posts usually rot (where they're buried)
	long before the rest of the fence goes.  Maybe you can coat the 
	posts with tar or something like that before planting them.
	
					Tim

There are various wood preservative products on the market; Thompson's
Water Seal is only a waterproofing coating and does not resist rot or
insect damage.  No matter what you use, you'll just be delaying the rot,
though.  For in-ground use, pressure-treated is best, cedar is ok but it will
also rot eventually.

For best results, soak the post bottoms in the preservative as long as possible,
a day or more is better.  Don't just brush or spray it on.  Make sure the
end of the post is treated too (don't let it rest on the flat bottom of a
bucket.)

				Steve

    
    Even with PT, if you cut the posts then bury only the uncut end
    and seal the cut end.  I like the cuprinol sealer/preservative
    for pine gives rot resistance and water protection like thompsons.
    
    colin
    

    
       I've used CWF (Clear Wood Finish) for years.  It keeps the fence
       a golden brown color, when it starts weathering, you brush it on
       again and looks like new.  I won't use anything else.
    
                 Mark

my dad painted the buried end of the posts with creosote about 10 years ago.
we just had to dig out and replace two because wind had snapped them off.
the bottoms were still solid.
i don't know if creosote is politically correct or available anymore.
-craig

    Creoste is a natural product made from pine trees. You would think it
    would be O.K.
    
    Telephone people still use it. 
    
    I have used it in the past, the main problem is that it will burn your
    skin.
    
    Marc H.

Creosote is a pretty potent carcinogen.  Tobacco is also a natural product,
but few outside of the industry would argue that it's therefore harmless.

re .14

Actually, creosole (preferred by industry over Kreosote which was/is a brand 
name, is derived from Coal Tar.  Creosole, in low distillations, is also used 
as a disinfectant; you see it in shampoos and is referred to as Coal Tar in the
ingrediants list.

FWIW,

Dave

    
    As an ex-smoker who grew up on a coalfield in spitting distance
    from a coal tar distillation plant, used creosoted wood
    in his garden and treats dandruff with Denorex(TM) I
    sit here as living testimony to the efficacy of
    this product.
    

    RE: .15
    
    Bad Analogy
    
    Marc H.

    RE: .16
    
    Thanks for the correction, Dave.
    
    Marc H.

re .18:

Why is it a bad analogy?

    >>re .18:
    
    >>Why is it a bad analogy?
    
    
    and we're off! :-) :-)

re .21:

I promise not to argue.  I'm much better since the lobotomy.

    Hello,
    
    I am attempting to put up a wood fence along edge of
    my backyard to keep my 1 year old daughter from going 
    down a drop off of boulders that were removed from my
    property.
    
    I have a lot of ledge and rock directly under 5" of
    topsoil, thus, making hole digging very difficult.
    
    I was told that, if I could get a 4"x4" wood post down 
    into the ground AT LEAST 12" that I could cement around 
    it and it would be strong enough.
    
    Does anybody have any such experience?
    
    Thanks,
    Bob
    

	DIR 1111.* should point you to dozens of related notes.

    I just put up 24 sections of stockade fence, Pretty simple job. We had
    a gas hole digger which helped a lot. I woold try to get at least 2
    feet down. The posts I used were put down 2 1/2 feet. Don't cement a
    wooden post in the ground it will rot twice as fast as it should. I
    used 3/4 stone under and around the posts and packed them with a 6 ft
    pry bar. The posts are so solid you would think they were cemented in.
    You have a big problem with ledge though. Maybe rent a jack hammer to
    get through it but I would go deeper than a foot.
    Good luck

>							Don't cement a
>    wooden post in the ground it will rot twice as fast as it should.

Really?  Why?  

I was just reading one of the little DIY brochures from HQ about putting 
in lamp posts, it said to cement it in...wait a minute, maybe they were
talking about metal posts?

Dan

    re: .3
    Yes - the concrete forms a pocket and holds moisture against the
    wood, forming an ideal environment for rot.
    

    
    We have ledge just below the surface too, so I used concrete and PTL
    posts.  In one place I could only get down 7" so I attached a
    galvanized deck post support ($3.00) to the ledge and put the fence
    post in that.  Then dug a wide hole an nailed a scrap of PTL across the
    post making it an inverted "T" and back filled. 
    
    Colin
    

Re: .4

�    re: .3
�    Yes - the concrete forms a pocket and holds moisture against the
�    wood, forming an ideal environment for rot.

I was taught that for this reason, when using concrete on wooden posts, to
fill the first 6" or so with gravel.  This way the bottom of the post is in
gravel; the concrete is now a "sleeve" instead of a "pocket".  Any water
that gets into the top of the concrete can now flow out the bottom.  In
addition, making the top of the concrete slightly above grade and sloped
away from the post is supposed to reduce the amount of water that gets in.

I've used this technique when repairing my wooden fence; unfortunately I
won't be able to give a longevity report for about another 20 years. ;-)

    RE: .6
    
    Thats the same technique recommended in the current issue of
    "Mother Earth News".
    
    Marc H.

    RE: .6
    
    My grandfather used to paint tar around the bottom of the post
    where it met the concrete as well as gravel + the concrete formed a
    cone up to the wood.  Not much though, just enough to seal.
    
    I was by the old place last summer, and most of the fence was still
    there, after 30 years.
    
    I am sure they have been painted, but one of the posts still has my
    initials in it.
    
    \Bill
    

    I've been slowly replacing my horse fencing, the new posts are 2.5
    deep, set in concrete (using the method in .6, suggested to me by 
    the fella at the hardware store :-), they are 8 ft 4x4's, pressure
    treated. Once their in, they can't be budged...even by my nosey and
    mischeivous Thoroughbred who makes a hobby of fence testing. If it
    keeps a 1000 lb horse in, it should work for the situation you
    described. 

    I'd like to fence in the back yard with a picket fence using 6 inch
    wide boards for the pickets.  Since we are going to paint it white, is
    #2 pine OK to use for pickets.  That's the cheapest material I've found
    so far.  If anyone has any other suggestions, I'm open to other types
    of wood.                                                
    
    							John

    RE: .46
    
    I used 1X6s once to make a fence. Worked fine......
    Consider stain though....less problem with the knots bleeding through.
    
    Marc H.

    Are you talking about a solid white stain or some other color?  I'm
    pretty sure my wife is set on a white fence.
    
    If I use two 2x4s as the rails to mount the 1x6 pickets on, will these
    be strong enough and not sag in the middle?  The posts will be 8 feet
    apart and the pickets will be attached to the 2 inch side of the 2x4. 
    Anyone think this will be a problem?
    
    							John

    RE: .48
    
    I used a solid white stain with excellent results. No problem with
    bleed through.
    
    As far as the 2X4 goes.....use them the other way for more strength.
    Pickets on the 4 side.
    
    Marc H.

Noticed at the library yesterday:  The cover story in the current issue
(June/July, 1993) of "Mother Jones" magazine is on how to build a wooden 
fence.  I flipped through the article and now intend to buy the issue.  The 
story runs about 12 pages with diagrams, materials recommendations, techniques, 
pros and cons, etc.  A second article covers building sag-proof gates.  
Looks like a good resource!

S.

    re -.1 
    
    >  (June/July, 1993) of "Mother Jones" magazine 
    
    I think you meant "Mother Earth" ???
    
    Bob

>>    re -.1 
>>    
>>    >  (June/July, 1993) of "Mother Jones" magazine 
>>    
>>    I think you meant "Mother Earth" ???
>>    
>>    Bob

Could well be...  If I'm mistaken, it's due to my pro-Jones bias.  :^)  
Mother Earth sounds more likely though.

Scott Jones

    RE: .52
    
    It is Mother Earth. I read the article....useful to someone who has
    built a fence before....
    
    Marc H.

RE: -1

>> I read the article...useful to someone who has built a fence before....

Could you elaborate?  I've not built a fence before, but will have to soon.  
I gather this isn't a "beginner's guide to fences" then?

S.

    RE: .54
    
    I found the article difficult to read. The article read like it had
    been edited a lot. For examole, just when you thought that you
    were going to get a detailed, blow by blow description of the technique
    to set the posts...the article would jump to the next subject.
    
    It seemed like a rambling discourse on fences....
    
    Useful info in the article...just not basic, how to for a first time
    builder.
    
    Marc H.

    Any suggestions for a good solid white stain?  I saw some Cuprinol in a
    solid white that I thought I might use.  Anyone have any better
    suggestions?  The fence is pine.
    
    							John

I've been using the Behr "Plus 10" latex-oil solid white stain; so far, on a
mailbox post and a planter.  It still looks good and I like the fact that
it cleans up with soap and water.  You'll want to use some sort of sealer
on any knots in the wood, or they'll bleed through whatever you use.

				Steve

    Opening an old note...
    
    Just called for the two man power auger, but it was booked.  Another
    rental company only had the one man.  Is there a big difference between
    the two as far as performance goes?
    
    I've reserved the one man, but if there's a huge difference, I may try
    and call around.
    
    Also, does anyone have any 'helpful hints' on using the one man
    auger?(aside from staying away from rocks ;-)).
    
    thanks
    
    	John

Hi John,

I used Cuprinol stain (white) on some outside rocking chairs...  but after
one year they needed a washing and didn't wash too well.  I don't think I'd 
use it again... but I have some left over if you'd like it :-)

As for the knots, BIN should cover them up.

Dan

    A few notes back I thought someone said that they did not use a sealer
    on the knots and had no problem.  What does bleed through look like?
    
    What is a latex-oil stain?  I thought it was one or the other.
    
    							John

Bleed-through, especially in light colors, looks like dark spots in the finish.

All I can tell you about the latex-oil is that the product does have some
sort of oil-base component, but the pigment carrier is latex and you can
do brush cleanup with soap and water, just like latex paints.  It seems just
as durable as any other solid stain (which is to say, less so than a 
transparent or semi-transparent stain.)  

				Steve

    
    Sure. Make sure it's the type that has the engine seperate from the
    auger. That is to say, some have the engine mounted at the top of
    the auger and some have an engine that sits on the ground and a 
    flexible shaft that goes to the auger. The flexible shaft type are 
    easier to control... plus they usually have a heavy bar that you
    attach to the motor in case of "kick back".
    
    Also, depending on the type of soil, sometimes the auger will try to
    "screw" into the ground instead of lifting the soil out... when this 
    happens it can be a real pain to screw it back out. Make sure you are 
    in control of the auger... don't just let it sit fully on its own 
    weight.
    	
    								- Mac

    Thanks Mac.
    
    Just called and the motor IS seperate from the auger!
    
    Thanks also for your helpful hints.  Any suggestions about the size of
    the auger; the 'bits' come in 4",6",8",12".  This is for your standard
    stockade fence w/ PT poles(I think they're 4"d).  I'd like to put some
    crushed stone on the bottem of the hole too,..  Is 6"d enough to give a
    little play, or should I go w/ 8"d?
    
    
    -John

    
    Personally I'd go with at least the 8". Especially if you're planning
    on sinking the poles in concrete. When you pull the auger out there 
    will be a little collapsing go on, so a little room to get down in 
    there with a little garden shovel is very helpful. 
    
    Last time I used one I did around 18 holes in a matter of a few hours
    with only three mishaps:
    
    		1. Hit water in one hole (an auger will cover you and
    		   anything within 25 feet with muck when you hit water ;-)
    
    		2. Forgot to attach the anti-kick back bar to the engine once
    		   and the auger bound. The thing spun and nailed me so 
    		   hard with the safety bar that I though I broke a few
    		   ribs.
    
    		3. Got lazy and accidently screwed the auger into the
    		   ground under the leadin edge of a large rock. I ended
    		   up having to dig it back out with a shovel and a digging
    		   bar.
    
    	Overall, the cost of renting the auger was infinitely worth it.
    	I'll never dig more than a few small post holes without one. 
    
    	Of course, if you watch the Hometime Building Fences tape they'll
    	show you an auger attached to a Bobcat... now we're talkin' REAL
    	toys! Drive up, position, lower the auger, pull it out and drive
    	on! 
    
    								- Mac

    Thanks again Mac.
    
    I don't think I'll have any problems w/ hitting water,... not this
    year!
    
    THe place that I'm now renting from, allows one to take multiple bits
    home, so I'll probably start w/ a smaller bit, and throw on a bigger
    one if the first hole goes smoothly(right;-))!
    
    regds,
    	John

    
    
    Hummmmmm.....why didnt you just use a large pipe wrench and
    turn the bit back out.  It screwed itself in.  Should come back 
    out??????
    
    JD

    
    If I had a large pipe wrench and a length of pipe to act as
    an extension I might have backed it out. Problem is, I didn't
    at the time.
    
    	                        			- Mac
    				

    Well, I rented the one man auger this past Sunday;  from Robinson
    Rental in Hudson, MA.  They let you take whatever bits you may
    need(others only allowed you to take one).  So, I got the 4", 6" and
    8"; mostly used the 6". 
    
    Overall, I'd definitely recommend getting it again.  Some holes it
    worked beautifully - 2 1/2 to 3 ft in a matter of seconds.  Others,...
    well,... this IS New England!
    
    Got ~35 holes dug; less 3 that we will have to cut the pole and use
    concrete because the rock was just tooooo big.
    
    As for getting it stuck... yes, it does get stuck.  I did something
    similar to what .17 suggested: I had a pole clamp, just clamped it on
    the end and walked it out.
    
    As far as getting beat up by the auger - YOU WILL.  However, one nice
    thing that this one had was an approx 10' steel bar that went from the 
    auger to the motor(which was mounted on 4 wheels). If the drill
    suddenly gets caught while drilling, it will first try and drag the
    motor sideways(because of this attachment), before wacking you in the
    ribs.
    
    Again, I'd recommend it!
    
    	-John 

    This weekend I dug/augered 35 holes for my fence poles.  The objective
    was to dig them 2 1/2 feet deep and put crushed stone on the bottem 6",
    then place the pole on top(down 2').
    
    Question is:  what size stone should I use?  For some reason,  3/4 inch
    		  stone is what comes to mind.... Is this the correct size?
    
    Thanks
    
    	John

    
    	What does the stone do?

Drainage?

    Yes, it allows better drainage so the poles don't rot(as easily).
    
    -John

    BTW - I talked w/ Stow Sand & Gravel today.  They have P-stone, 3/4 and
    1 1/2".  He suggested the 1 1/2".

    
    The old "Dip in Tar" trick works good to.....
    
    You could always use guard rail.  They seem to resist decay...
    but attract cars!:)
    
    JD

	I moved to a house along a rural road, and need to either
	plant bushes or construct a fence to deaden the sound
	of cars wizzing by at 40-50mph. I have the space to
	put anything I want up, but Im looking for the *most*
	effective sound deadener, since the house, and a nice
	deck sit within 10ft of the road.

	Any pointers to books, shrub types, fence designs,
	are greatly appreciated. 

	Pete

    
    
    Shooting Muffs.  There about $6.99 a pair!..:):):):)
    
    I've seen a fence one time that might have been used for
    the same purpose.  I thought it blended in nice and did make
    the place look like Fort Knox.   It had a sig-sag effect.  Horizontal
    boards stained a brownish gray and pine trees planted on each
    side in the middle of each z-z.   I'll try to draw it..
                      /\  **  /\
                     /  \    /  \
                    /    \  /    \
                   /  **  \/  **  \
    
    ....The fenceing was streached out a bit more then the drawing
    but I think you get the idea....
    JD

    This was used in a neighborhood near I-290...
    
    
    __________      ___________     ___________   __________
           ___________      ____________    ___________
    
    I suspect both variations work on the idea of breaking up, rather than
    stopping, sound waves.
    
    Edd

I live near a busy street, and have been looking in to what can be done.
I'll tell you right now, a 6-foot cedar stockade fence doesn't do an
adequate job.

The problem was explained to me as follows:
The predominante "annoying" frequency made by traffic is about 100 Hz (per
the Colorado Springs traffic engineer).  This corresponds to a wavelength of
about 10 feet (the speed of sound is about 1 foot/millisecond).  If your
structure is less than a wavelength thick, it won't have much effect on that
frequency of sound.

This implies to me that either a 10-foot thick wall ;-), or the zig-zag
approach shown in .11 would be necessary.

According to the same traffic engineer, there has been very little research
done into traffic noise barriers.

    	Perhaps sometime in the future it may not be an issue. There is an
    emerging technology called noise cancellation. A microphone picks up
    the annoying sound to be cancelled, some logic generates a sound
    waveform that is the inverted version of the sound to be cancelled, 
    and a speaker broadcasts the inverted sound. When the two waveforms 
    hit each other, one cancels out the other.
    
    	Ray

thanks for all the input. So, I guess a solid rock stacked wall
won't help very much more than a wood one. I sounds like a zig-zag
wood stockade fence with bushy pine trees in each vortex would
be optimal? I really surprised the DOT or some other govt. agency
hasnt spent millions of dollars (and have white papers) on noise.

I really wish there was empirical data that I could draw on before
I start renting fence building equipment.

    
    The State of Connecticut spent a fortune building zig-zagging concrete
    barriers all through Vernon and other towns along 84. The end result
    being that the State of Connecticut spent a fortune. It caused a big 
    uproar when thes specifically designed sound barriers did not make any
    appreciable difference.  Notice that when you get into Manchester and
    East Hartford, the barriers are MASSIVE wooden structures 15-20 feet 
    tall in places.
    
    								- Mac
    						        (former Vernon-ite)

    RE:  .14
    
    I've heard about the noise cancelling technology, but don't think that
    will solve all the problems.
    
    As I understand it, the technology will cancel the *exhaust* noise from
    an engine.  That's great and it will probably make the cars more
    efficient because they won't have the exhaust pressure to deal with.
    
    However, much of a car's noise comes from tires and other road noise. 
    Given that the basenoter lives in a rural area, the road in question
    may even be gravel.
    
    To the basenote for a moment:  
    
    I know that earthen berms have proven to be very effective a reducing
    traffic noise.  A berm is basically a pile of dirt or fill which
    parallels the road.  The theory is that the noise strikes the berm and
    is deflected upward over the *top* of the house.
    
    My in-laws live in a condo near a major (for NH) highway.  They have a
    berm in their back yard which is about eight feet high.  Most of the
    time you hear very little traffic noise at all.  I would think a berm,
    with pine trees behind it, would be the best possible solution.  Of
    course, you won't have any view, but that wasn't your question  :^)
    
    Chet

    	I'm kind of surprised the concrete didn't work. If I walk down in my
    basement, I hear virtually no road noise, but then I also have the
    house over me and only about 2' or so of the basement is above grade.
    
    	In many cases, particularly mine, it isn't practical to make cement
    walls for sound reduction, or any walls for that matter. The house sits 
    up from the road (for obvious drainage reasons) so the sound would just 
    travel over the fence to hit the house.
    
    	Does anyone know if the majority of road noise enters the house through
    the windows ? If yes, perhaps some closable insulated shutters on the 
    outside of the house would help. It would also save on heating costs in 
    the winter. Of course this wouldn't help with the noise during the day 
    when you want the sun to shine in.
    
    	Ray

re .18:

The key to the quiet in your basement is the earth that surrounds most of it.
I remember a story about someone who turned an old ICBM silo in the west into
a home.  It was dead silent.

    
    Just south of Manchester, NH, there is a stretch of interstate 93 and
    route 101 that appears to use stackable, modular concrete units that
    act as a berm. They are shaped like trays, filled with dirt, and
    stacked about six high. It looks as though in a year or so the
    vegetation will hide the concrete.
    
    It looks like an extremely expensive approach, tho.
    
    JP

    I'm about a block from the Mass Pike.  I intend to add some white noise
    in the form of a fountain or two to cut down on the traffic noise next
    summer.
    
    Exhaust noise is nothing compared to tire noise.  You can hear some of
    those trucks from two miles away.
    
    Cancelling noise through use of out-of-phase sound has been used for
    years in the electrical industry where the installation is in a
    residential neighborhood.  Of course, all they have to deal with is
    60-cycle hum.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but fir trees should make an excellent sound
    barrier....if you have about 10 years to wait for them to grow in.
    
    Jim

    John J. Salmon
    HLO1-1/Q10
    225-6336
    
    
                              10' Stockade Fence??
    
    
    Does anyone know where I can have a 10' sotckade fence made? I've
    looked through all the notes on fences, but I haven't seen a note
    refering to custom made fences. It seems the "standard" hieght of a
    stockade fence is 6', but I need at least 10'. I live in Worcester MA
    so I'd like to have the fence done somewhere in the Worcester area.
    I would also need about 100' for the length, so I'm not looking for
    a fence made of Cedar. I'm thinking more on the lines of Pine. Any help
    would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
    
    
    
    
                                  John
                                               

    Check your local zoning laws to make sure you can put up a fence that
    high before you get it built.

    RE -1
    
          After reading not 1752, I fully intend to check out the zoning
    laws! I don't need that kind of nightmare. The reason I'm putting up a
    10' fence is also due to neighbors. The neighbors directly behind me
    have Foster children that scream all day and night long, all summer
    long! These are troubled kids that are also very destructive. The
    parents apparently are in this for the money, as there is virtually NO
    adult supervision! The guy who owns the house set up everything for the
    kids (sandbox, pool, etc..) bordering all the neighbors property, in
    order to get everything as far away from his own house as possible.
    This past summer was a nightmare! The screaming goes right through our
    house! I'd like to be able to at least sit on our deck next year
    without having to witness the destruction ( toys being bashed with
    bats ) and all the screaming! Thanks,
    
    
                          John
    

	re:  Foster children for the money..

	Of course, you could always report this problem.  Perhaps
	someone would investigate and decide that these people are
	not fit to be foster parents.  Just invite them to come over
	to your house sometime (the people who investigate) and witness!

	Karen

    I just had a fence put up by Sudbury Cedar Co. 562-4566
    Paul was very accommodating, even when I changed my mind.  The fence
    was up in one afternoon. I go from 3 to 8 ft. in hieght.  You might ask
    him about the 10 foot.  
    If you want to do it yourself, I saw something along the highway which you
    might be able to do easily.  These fences were sound barriers and 25ft
    tall or better.  One section would be formed like this:
    two telephone poles were spaced 6ft appart, then boards were nailed
    horizontally between them.  On the back of the first pole to the front of
    the second.  Then the next telephone pole is spaced and the next set of
    horizontal boards.  Back of the second pole to front of the third and
    so on.  The ending effect is a subtle zigzag.  It was quite striking or
    I wouldn't have remembered it.  It was stained a grey green. The hieght
    limitation would be the hieght of your vertical poles.  I wouldn't
    think you'd need to use telephone poles.

    RE .4
          I could make a video tape on ANY given day that would 
    (hopefully) shock anyone in the DSS office. It is truely unbelievable!
    You'd have to see it to believe it!
    
    
                                   John 

	Looks a combination of a berm with 10ft trees on top along the road
	is the way to go. The trees would be pine or norweigen spruce sheared,
	(10fts are running 80$ a pop planted), and the berm is about $3000
	in machinery labor (for 200ft by 6ft tall). This assumes the 
	dirt comes free from one of those (free clean fill) sites along
	the road. 

	Now I need to see if the town wants a permit or a "soil conservation"
	application...

    I was looking at this landscaping reference book the other day.
    Wish I remember the name, Ill post it if see it again.
    
    It had a section on road noise.
    It stated the trees or cedar shrubs dont do much
    What you need an earthern mound
    between the house and noise source (road),
    a complete line of sight block.
    
    You then want to plant low shrubs and tall trees
    on it to further block sounds.
    
    But then youll still here it you know.
    I live 2 miles from 128, with a lot of hills
    and trees in between, and on quiet mornings
    I can still hear the din of the traffic roar.
    
    Id spend the money on double paned windows
    and central air instead of mounds of dirt.

    Al Morin @ 508-753-4146 installs custom fences (Worcester)
    

    I'm installing a cedar post and rail fence in front of a retaining
    wall I built.  The wall is constructed of 6x6 .40CCA landscape timbers,
    with the appropriate deadmen, spiked together with 3/8"x12" spikes(?).
    
    The fence posts are 5"x5"x6' and the rails are 4"x4"x8'/9'.
    
    I was considering bolting the posts to the outside of the wall
    to avoid digging all the holes, add another foot or so
    of area to the contained lawn, and avoid posts rotting.  
    I'm wondering if anyone has tried this.
    
    I would put approx. 2.5' of the post along the wall, with bolts in
    each landscape timber it crossed.  
    
    The things I am worried about are:
    
    1) strength.  kids will be kids... (the wall at one point is roughly 8'
    high.)
    
    2) if the wall bows at all, so will the fence, highlighting the curve.
    I think to avoid this I would need to put the posts too far away from
    the wall on the inside.  I would lose too much lawn to keep the
    straight line and hide imperfections in the wall.
    

Today we're having put up a 6-foot wooden stockade fence around the back part of 
our property.

The guy who is doing it says that we can either let it weather over time and 
thus take on that grayish look, or to put several coats of varnish on it in a 
month or so, so that it retains the brown color (which is also the same color as 
our house).

Does anyone know how many coats of varnish or whatever it would take?  And would 
I have to do this every year or every other year?  I'd like to retain the brown 
color, but not if it takes a lot of maintenance from year to year.

    You would have to do it every year, at least.  I was reading something
    about this the other day in reference to varnished surfaces on boats.
    According to what I read, the sun's UV reacts with the wood surface
    under the varnish, breaks down the bond, and starts the varnish
    peeling.  The only way to keep a good varnish finish on wood that's
    exposed to the weather (i.e. direct sunlight) is to use a varnish with
    UV inhibitors to block the UV from getting to the wood, and to sand
    and reapply new varnish from time to time.  At the very least, you need
    to put a new coat of varnish ovder the old to reinforce the UV inhibitors.
    Paint doesn't have this problem, as the pigment effectively blocks the
    UV from getting to the wood.
    
    I think I'd opt for a penetrating stain, applied once a year.  It 
    would preserve the appearance (some), be relatively easy to apply, 
    and also prolong the life of the fence.  Over time it's probably
    going to turn gray though, unless you go to way more trouble than 
    you're likely to want to expend on a fence.
    

What kind of wood is it?

    Oops - I suppose I should know this, but I don't.  It's just a 'big
    wooden stockade fence.'
    
    Sheepishly yours,
    

I don't recommend "varnish".  If you like the brown color, then use a
stain/sealer product, but you'll likely have to repeat it from time to time.
Make sure that you apply a product that adds water repellency and resists
mildew and fungus.

					Steve

    I also recently put up a new cedar fence.
    I was going to stain it white, because the
    house is white and fence should sort tie in with the home.
    But I definately dont want to have to stain this every year
    so I think I;m just going to let it grey.
    

Re: .5

That's what I'm going to do as well, but I'll be applying a waterproofer with
mildewicide to prevent the wood from splitting and mildewing.

				Steve

    
    On the subject of fences, can anyone reccommend a good place
    to buy fence?  We've checked Home Depot, but I'd like to look
    at more of a selection...more on the idea of a colonial look,
    not stockade.
    
    Home Depot did have one example of this type of look, for 
    $86.00 per section!!!  Gag, if that's supposed to be a good
    price, I am afraid of what a fence dealer would charge.
    
    Any suggestions, please let me know.
    
    Thanks,
    Deb

     
   > Home Depot did have one example of this type of look, for 
   > $86.00 per section!!!  Gag, if that's supposed to be a good
   > price, I am afraid of what a fence dealer would charge.
    
    Be afraid... be veeery afraaaaaaid. 
    
    When I was scoping out fencing a few years ago I was jOlTeD
    by the prices at the "specialists".	 That said, I'd recommend 
    hitting the yellow pages (under FENCES) and playing the local 
    companies againts each other... it's a pretty competitive business. 
    
    							- Mac

I'm having fence (I think you'd call it "Colonial type" - it's a non-stockade
screen fence) put up.  Locally (Nashua), we were most comfortable with
the products and service of Penney Fence and Gate City Fence.  Both quoted
us very similar prices but we went with Penney because they could build
exactly what we wanted whereas Gate City could come only very close.  If the
prices had been significantly different, we would have gone with price.  For
140 feet of 6-foot fence the installed price is $2600.  If one subtracts the
price for the decorative caps and an additional decorative board we're having
them add, that works out to about $122 per 8-foot section, installed.  If
we wanted plain stockade, it would be significantly less.

If you factor in installation costs, this starts to look quite competitive
with Home Depot, etc.

				Steve

    
    Well, when you condsider the HD price of $86.00 per 4x4 foot
    section, you've got to think they made a mistake, and of course
    this is not installed as .9 states.
    
    At HD prices, I get a smaller fence for more money, and I have
    to install it myself. (compared to what .9 is having done...)
    
    I will check the two mentioned fence dealers...thanks for the
    pointers.
    
    Deb, who's still on the fence about fencing!
    
    ;) i'm so glib

Penny Fence also uses 7/8" thick cedar, where most of the competition uses 3/4".
(comparable pricing as well)

Ross

    My pricing per section was assuming 8'x6'.
    
    	Steve

    I picked up some of the Behr "Plus 10" latex-oil solid white stain and
    I noticed the can says "DO NOT THIN."  Anyone know why thinning would be
    a problem?  If it's not a big deal, what do you thin a latex oil stain
    with?  Mineral spirits or water?
    
    							John

Don't thin it or else it won't apply properly (nor will it protect the way
it should).  Why do you want to thin it?  I've used the Plus-10 and like
it a lot.  I plan to use it on a new fence we're putting in.

					Steve

    I thought it was best to thin stains for the first 1 or 2 coats so that
    they soak in better.  One article I read in Fine Woodworking suggested
    putting on 5 coats with the first two thinned 50% so that they soak in
    and don't build up too fast.
    
    						John

For transparent stains that's probably fine, but not for solid stains such
as the Behr Plus-10 you're considering.

				Steve

    I need build a gate for my fence but Im having trouble
    finding the stock I need.
    
    I need 1"x4"x6' tounge & groove cedar (it need not be clear)
    All I need is 26 peices. (And I dont have a router...;-)
    

    You should try the Littleton Lumber yard in Littleton Mass.  I believe
    they have T+G cedar.  Sorry, I don't have the phone number.  They are
    located next to the intersection of Rte 119 and Rte 495(very close to the 
    LKG facility).

    Littleton Lumber's phone is (508)-486-9877.
    
    If you strike out there, you could go a few blocks south and try Parlee
    Lumber, at (508)-486-4681.
    
    Dick

    THanks but I found some at Sommerville

    This year I'm finally going to be building that fence my wife
    has bugged me about for three years.  It's going to be a wooden
    picket style fence except I won't be using pickets.  I'll be 
    using 1x4 boards and each section will be scalloped.
    
    I've spoken with several fence contractors and each have their
    own opinion about depth of the posts, using PT lumber and whether
    or not to cement the posts in the ground.  Here is a rough idea
    of what I've been told so far:
    
    Contractor #1:  "I don't use PT lumber at all.  I've seen carpenter
                     ants eat PT lumber.  I use only cedar wood.  I place
                     the posts in the ground about 24 inches.  I'll cement them
                     if you want."
    
    Contractor #2:  "I only use PT lumber for the posts.  I use cedar
                     for the boards.  I don't cement the posts in at
                     all because the wood will shrink over time and that
                     creates a pocket for the water to sit which will
                     rot even PT lumber.  I place the posts in the 
                     ground about 28 inches."
    
    Other contractors I spoke with also agreed with contractor #2 about
    not using cement.  
    
    Misc. advise from friends:
    
    "Tar the bottom of the posts that are in the ground."
    
    "Don't tar the bottom of the posts because if the posts get wet the
    water will sink to the bottom of the post and will have nowhere to
    go and the post will rot."
    
    "Paint or stain each and every piece of wood before you build the
    fence.  Place the posts in the ground about three to four feet."
    
    "Build the fence and let it sit for one year before staining."
    
    "Build the fence then use a Wagner Power Sprayer to stain it."
    
    "Predrill each board and use galvanized screws."
    
    "Use galvanized 6 or 8 penny nails and hammer them in."
    
    "Use 5x5 posts instead of 4x4 posts.  Cosmetically it looks nicer."
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    The fence I plan on building will be 4ft tall at the 4x4 posts and
    approximately 38 inches in the exact center between the posts.  Each
    section will be 7.5 feet wide and the approximate length of the fence
    will be 300 feet.
    
    Currently the advice I like the best is:
    
    1.  Do not cement the posts in the ground.
    2.  Stain each piece before building.
    3.  Sink the posts in the ground no less than 28 inches.
    4.  Use PT lumber for the posts.
    5.  Use cedar for the 1x4 boards.
    6.  Use galvanized nails and hammer them in.
    
    Any further advice would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Stephen.

	Don't use galvanized nails. The acid in the wood will corrode 
	the nail and there will be black stains around the nail head.
	Stainless nails cost a little more but no staining.

	Paul
	

    The mistake I made when I built a board on board fence was that I
    made the boards go to close to the ground, around 2 inches, so that
    the bottoms rotted.  Next time I'll do 4 inches.
    Other than that I used PT for posts and rails, cemented the corners,
    stained before installing, dug 24 to 30 inch holes, used galvinized
    nails.  The boards were resawn 2x6's, not planed on the resawn side.
    (200' fence)
    
    ed

Having installed quite a bit of fence last year, here's the choices I made:

	1.  Use PT posts, no cement, tar or anything which traps moisture.
	2.  Use cedar pickets
	3.  Use aluminum or stainless steel nails

If you are not planning to stain the wood, applying a moisture-resistant
preservative is probably a good idea.

				Steve

> 	1.  Use PT posts, no cement, tar or anything which traps moisture.
> 
> If you are not planning to stain the wood, applying a moisture-resistant
> preservative is probably a good idea.

	.... but not the PT (pressure treated) posts until they've dried
	out for a year (?)

I've read that some of the newer preservatives can be used on new PT wood;
follow the manufacturer's recommendations on this.

					Steve

    Use Stainless steel deck nail (ringed).
    Use Pt posts - au-natural - right into the ground.
    Consider cementing the posts that you will hang a gates on.
    If you plan to stain the fence white, spray paint the
    heads of nail white with rustoleum before construction.
    (I just stick em in styrofoam  and spray the heads that way)

I find the aluminum nails to hold better than stainless steel - ringed or
not.  The aluminum nails have a rougher finish that resists sliding out.
(Indeed, it's impossible to pull one that's been driven most of the way in...)

				Steve

    Thank you to everyone that replied to my request for advice about
    building a fence.  There were some great suggestions and I'm sure to
    use some of them.  I'll let you all know how the fence turns out.
                                
    Thanks again.
    
    Stephen

Rent a nail gun countersink the holes and fill them (if you are painting). 
 Looks great and no problems with rusting nails.

BTW, for those who mixed PT with cedar...if you stain, do they they look 
different?

Not if you use solid-color stain....

		Steve

    I was told that nails from a nail gun would come loose quicker than
    conventional nails because the head is smaller.   I have a friend who
    owns a nail gun and compressor so maybe I'll test it on some scrap
    lumber and compare it to nails with a large head hammered into the
    wood.  
    
    Thanks for the advice. 

>>    I was told that nails from a nail gun would come loose quicker than
>>    conventional nails because the head is smaller.   I have a friend who

They have deck nails (ie ring nails) for stick and coil nailers.  Some 
(most?) stick nails shoot what they call a 3/4 head.  I have a Hitachi stick
nailer which shoots a full head nail.

bjm

	Conventional nails are a little larger that nails for a nail gun
	because they have to be. A nail gun will set the nail with a single 
	stroke with the force being inline with the nail. A conventional nail
	is set with a several blows from a hammer and the has to withstand 
	forces other than straight on. A properly set nail from a nail gun
	(even a cliped head nail) with hold as well as a conventional nail.

	Some building codes don't allow clipped head nails for house 
	construction but that is more out of ignorance than actual data. 

	Paul

	Also don't alot of nails for nail guns have a coating of glue
	that liquifies when shot into the wood (due to the heat generated
	by shooting it so fast), that then subsequently dries and gives
	a stronger bond?

>	Also don't alot of nails for nail guns have a coating of glue
>	that liquifies when shot into the wood (due to the heat generated
>	by shooting it so fast), that then subsequently dries and gives
>	a stronger bond?

I've heard this but given the amount of "glue" that is on any given nail I
can't see how it would make any difference.

    that glue makes 'em harder to pull out than a conventional nail.
    
    ed

	The glue make them significantly harder to pull out. 

	Paul

    If you've ever used conventional rosin-coated nails versus regular
    steel nails, you'll recognize just how much difference that bit
    of "glue" can make.
    					andrew

I am replacing an old stockade fence. The posts have rotted away at ground 
level and left embedded in the ground 1 1/2' "stumps" that I am trying to 
dig out. After an exploratory session with thin spade and levers, and no 
progress, I think there has to be a better approach.

It's a rocky area so I'd like to redig the existing holes, if possible. Is 
this what's called being between a rock and a hard place?

I assume Fence contractors face this situation often. Does anyone know what 
they do? Anyone face/solve this scenario?

Thanks, Ernie

                     <<< Note 1292.44 by POWDML::KAHANE >>>
                          -< Removing post "stumps" >-

	First try - if they're really rotten, then a standard
post hole digger should be able to remove them as you redig the
hole.  If they're not rotten enough for this treatment, then they
should be solid enough to pull - rig a tripod over the hole (3
2x4s or equivalent poles should work) and hang a come-along from
it.  Get a largish eye-bolt with lag-type screw thread, install
that into the top of the post, and pull away.

	Keep your fingers crossed that the installer didn't add
concrete at the bottom of the hole...

I had this problem on a total of five fence posts (which became evident when
six fence sections blew over).  I dug down beside the post stump, drilled a
3/4" hole in the side, and hammered a round concrete chisel into the hole.
I then used my automotive floor jack to jack the post right out of the
ground.  I only had to go to a second hole on one of the posts (after the
first hole ripped open; too close to the top, too rotten).

It was the tools that I had available.  Though not ideal, it worked fine.

    
    
    On a similar note, How does one deal with a noisey industrial
    neighbor, when the neighbor refuses to acknoledge that he's making
    in HIS oppinion more than a reasonable amount of noise? 
    
    There is no noise ordenence law in the town I live in (Hudson ma)
    Can I expect to get any assistance from the EPA or OSHA? How would
    I contact one or both of these organizations?
    
    Thanks in advance for any input
    steve

re: .25
    
>    On a similar note, How does one deal with a noisey industrial
>    neighbor, when the neighbor refuses to acknoledge that he's making
>    in HIS oppinion more than a reasonable amount of noise? 
    
Who was there first?

-Hal

    
    Is his industry in compliance with zoning ordinances?
    
    JP

    	re:25
    
    	Noise cancellation technology is past the experimental stages.
    I haven't actually seen anything available on the market yet. Might
    be worth looking into though.
    
    	Ray

    
>    	Noise cancellation technology is past the experimental stages.
>    I haven't actually seen anything available on the market yet. Might
>    be worth looking into though.

	There are systems out there that work well, but only in
limited circumstances.  Best case is a noisy blower in a duct - with
a few microphones, some electronics, and a speaker, you can create
a complementary sound wave that will almost eliminate the noise coming
from the duct.  You can also get nice headphones that will cut regular
noise (plane engines, etc.) to your ears only.  None of this stuff works
so well with 'broadcast' noise - like exposed vehicles or typical noisy
engines, like chainsaws, mowers, those damn 3/4 wheel 'fun' vehicles, etc.

	Also - bring money...    

We just had a cedar split rail fence installed and were wondering if we need 
to treat it sometime in the near future.  I've read through this string and it 
appears we can just leave it alone, but would we be doing any harm or help if 
we did coat it some clear sealer?

Thanks
Dave

No harm.  Some sealers will keep the "new cedar" look, others will let it
weather to silver.  Go ahead if you want.

				Steve

    Last week's Boston Globe had an article about Vinyl Fencing from a
    company called Genova (based in Michigan).  
    
    I'm going to look into this type of fencing, and was wondering if
    anyone here has had any experience with vinyl fencing? What's the cost
    relative to chain link or wood?  How easy/hard is it to install?
    
    Thanks!  ****andrea****
    

    	Home Depot and/or Home Quarters carry it. I don't remember exact
    prices, but it did seem expensive. It may not need painting, but it could 
    be subject to cracking over time. UV tends to make plastic brittle after
    a year or so. Aside from expense, that would be my concern.
    
    	Ray

    Just a comment but what I've seen installed in a couple of places
    in Manchester impressed me with the quality appearance.  It looked
    great in white along with the white vinyl sided houses it accompanied.
    
    Can't speak to performance over time and whether it takes any abuse.
    
    Dick

The vinyl fencing is considerably more expensive than cedar.  It comes in only
a few styles, but if one of those is what you like, it will pretty much last
forever.  A good cedar fence on PT posts will last 10-15 years, though....

				Steve

    
    I am buying a house and want to put up a stockade fence for privacy.
    I will need over 400' of fence.  Where would be the least expensive
    place to buy the fence materials?   (I live in Hudson, MA)
    
       Alan
    

Well, places like Home Depot sell stockade fencing....

			Steve

    
    Check with some of the local lumber yards. Right around now, and at 
    the end of the summer you can get goos deals on left over fencing.
    I.E. It's weathered, and the yard can't sell it.
    

    My husband and I are looking at fencing in our back yard - roughly 450
    feet to keep our two and a half and one and a half year olds from
    leaving the yard.  We live in Shrewsbury so I called a couple of local
    fencing places and they were talking $3300 - $3500 for cedar stockade.
    I didn't realize it would be so expensive.
    
    Has anyone used any local fencing companies that they can recommend?  I
    would like to work with someone honest....as I mentioned to my husband
    we don't have to put up stockade because we are really not doing this
    for privacy as we live on a wooded lot and no one can see our backyard
    in the summer anyway.  I just want the fence company to give me the
    best options for my money (like maybe chain link...)..
    
    Any suggestions would be appreciated...
    
    T

Well, the cheapo option is to cut the posts with a chain saw, and tack on
roll fencing from the local farm store (= Agway). This is what I'm planning
to do to seperate our yard from the neighbors - about 800' of fence
eventually.

Of course, if you don't have some trees you want to cut, or you don't have a
chain saw, this isn't useful advice.

I put in about 100' of chainlink a few years ago for $1,200. It would have been a lot less if I 
had done it myself.

Pete

    I did about 150' of chainlink last summer. The (brown) fencing came in 50'
    rolls, about $60.00/roll (cdn). A lot of the expense on chain link is
    the additional hardware (post caps, tension bars etc), that stuff
    doubles your cost/foot and you may not need it. I only bought the
    fencing ( no hardware), used my own posts etc and cost came out to
    about $2.00/foot. It looks ok and has weathered well so far, the dog
    has not escaped. have fun.

    I fenced the back end of my wooded lot.  I used pressure treated 4x4
    and a heavy 4/2" wire mesh that blends into the woods.  It was cheap.  
    I think I payed 300 bucks for the entire job.  I did put in 35 + posts in
    myself and each one had to be 2 feet deep.  I never want to see a post
    hole digger again!
    
    It looks fine.  I did this to keep the dogs in the yard.  
    
    Mark
     

We had about 400' of cedar split rail (2 rails) installed, along with 2x4"
chicken wire along the inside for around $2800.  This is in Georgia, so prices
would probably vary with NE, but since you don't 'need' a privacy fence, maybe
this type will work.  It's about 36' tall, while the 3 rail fence would
have been 3.5' tall, and more expensive.

Dave

    I think with kids anything under 4 feet would not be acceptable. You
    also don't want to have backer rails accessible that they could get a
    foot hold on.  If this is temporary (until the kids are older) you
    could get that 4' vinyl coated roll fence with the metal posts. I've
    used that successfully, the 3 foot stuff they were over quick.  Make
    sure you keep the posts to no more than 6 feet apart if you go this
    route otherwise there is too much bend.
    
          Mark

    A falling branch took out two sections of my 6' stockade fence, and
    snapped off two of the (allegedly) pressure-treated posts about 8"
    below grade. I was able to remove one of the post 'stubs' fairly easily 
    by grabbing it with the post-hole digger, but the second one won't
    budge. I've tried to clear out as much of the surrounding fill as
    possible, but the post hole in centered in a triangle of sorts, with
    large roots of a 70' pine tree on two sides, and a large chunk of ledge
    on the third, so I can't expand the hole and attack from the side. I've
    even tried socking in a 4" lag bolt into the center of the stub and
    attaching a rope, but the stub is somewhat punky and the lag bolt yanks
    out before the post moves.
    
    Short of drilling a 1" hole and inserting a cherrybomb, or burning it
    out with gasoline (kidding), I'm out of ideas. Anyone else ever run into 
    this? If so, how did you deal with it? 
    
    Thanks in advance 

If it's that punky, I'd try to split it or break it apart using a pickaxe or
one of those vertical log splitters.  Typically, one uses a "fence puller"
device that has a chain to be wrapped around the post, but given it broke off
so far below the surface, that is probablt not an option.  Might it have been
set in concrete?

				Steve

It's not unusual for a post to flare at the bottom, so you can't pull it 
straight out without widening the hole to be (almost) as wide as the
widest part of the base.  (Is it a round post or a square 4x4 or 6x6?
And why do you say "allegedly" pressure treated? Because it's punky?)

Also, if it broke merely 8" below grade, and if it was sunk deep enough
to clear the frost line, you could have 3' of post still buried - very hard
to slide out of the ground without more excavation.

You might try a power auger, the kind you'd use to did post holes, and grind
the punky pieces out.
That might be an expensive fix, perhaps, but maybe a half day rental 
wouldn't cost that much.

- tom]

    	Get a long (electricians) drill bit and drill a hole through the
    middle. Get some threaded rod and attach it to a butterfly anchor. Push
    the butterfly through and try to get it to open on the under side of
    the post.
    
    	Once caught, you can take a piece of wood (2x4) with a hole drilled
    through it, slide it onto the threaded rod and use a nut and washer to
    hold it onto the rod. Now you have a handle and some leverage. A crude
    picture follows -
    
    
    				     ||
    				     == nut/washer
    			+--------------------------+
    		        |	     ||		   | 2x4
     			+--------------------------+
    				     ||
    				     || Rod
    				     ||
    				     ||
    				    \../ Anchor
    
    
    	Not sure if this will work, but it's the only thing that comes to
    mind.
    
    	Ray

    Try 3 lag bolts of greater length.  Create an imaginary circle on a
    piece of sturdy plywood that's about 50% larger than the diameter of the post
    stub.  Drill 3 equidistant holes in the plywood at that imaginary circle.  
    The holes should just match the dia. of the lags to allow maximum wood
    surface under the lag washers.  Angle the holes/lags/washers toward the 
    middle of the post.  You don't want them straight up and down because of 
    the lousy wood.  They'll bite better if lagged in at opposing angles.
    
    Force two levers underneath and well past the plywood/lag fixture and
    lift.  Do make sure that your washers are of sufficient size to not
    pull through the plywood, when under force.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Bill

    Some very interesting ideas...are they just theoretical, or have they
    been used successfully? I think I'll try the drilling method first,
    since I alreadt have some threaded rod and wing-bolts, as well as an
    extension for the drill bit. If that fails, I'll try one (or more) of
    the others.
    
    To clarify: as best I can tell, the post is not set in concrete. Also,
    I used "allegedly" because the wood appears to have rotted despite
    being pt'd. And finally, it's your standard 6" round fence post.
    
    Thanks again for the advice.
    
    

PT wood will rot - just slower than non-treated wood.  Also, for fenceposts
you have to make sure you use wood that is rated for in-ground burial - the
standard PT won't cut it.  If the post is installed so that water can collect
around it, it will rot faster.

				Steve

    
         Also, I've noticed that some people forget that they will be
    cutting their treated wood for length, and burying the cut end for
    aesthetic (and weather resistance) reasons. If you do that, you can buy
    wood treatment that you can brush-on prior to burying, but it is not as
    good as the pressure treatment. When possible, it is still recommended
    to bury the wood in cement.
    
                                       Greg

Cyndi Chaffee
[email protected]

We are starting the long process of re-doing the pool area of the home we purchased last year.
The project for this year is to extend the pool area.  Therefore, removing the stockard fence 
(rotten) and developing the area to go back another 10 feet.  The question I would like to ask 
this conference.  Any recommendations on the following: 

1)  Do not need fence for privacy - chain link or stockade
2)  What to ask companies during estimate.
3)  For pool enclosure - 9 guage or 11 1/2 if we go chain link  
4)  Companies in the West Boylston area - need recommendations
5)  If we decide to DIY (very new at DIY) how do we start.  
  	Buy a Book.   Measure/Design, etc.

Thanks for any help you may give.  I only have Exchange mail.

Cyndi