Conference 7.286::home_work

    	I am using the Black and Decker heat gun for paint removal and 
        I think it's the greatest thing since the invention of the 
        wheel. The gun, when used with the accessory nozzle kit, is 
        ideal for removing paint off woodwork. I am using the heat gun 
        to remove several coats of lead paint that is sitting on top 
        of varnished wood. Large flat areas go very quickly and 
        molding isn't too bad with a good paint removing tool. I've 
        done this before with paint remover and using the heat gun is 
        a lot quicker. Also, when it's time to clean up you just pick 
        up the news papers and sweep the floor.
    
    	The only disadvantage is that you are left with a slight 
        residue of varnish on the wood, which can easily be removed 
        with a low quality paint remover and a rag.
    
    	Just like any other tool, it takes a little practice to use 
        the heat gun properly. It now takes me a fraction of the time 
        it took me when I first started to use the gun. Also, the 
        quality of the work went up.
    
    	For molding you can go to Spag's or any other larger hardware 
        store and look for paint removing tools.
    
    	As I said earlier, I've done this both ways. Using the heat 
        gun is a lot quicker and cleaner than paint remover.
    
    	BTW - If you have a smoke detector on the same floor that you 
        are working on, disconnect it. Even though there is no smoke, 
        whatever vapor is released sets off the detector.
    
    	                              Fred
    

Several years ago, my wife and I the industrial-strength heat gun sold
by The Old House journal.  It's the one that looks something like a metal
version of a Conair hair dryer.

We've found it to be an excellent tool for removing paint, especially on
irregularly-shaped objects.  It doesn't work quite as well on large, flat
surfaces.  The Old House Journal now also offers another heater specifically
for this type of work.  I expect that we'll buy one soon.

A couple of words of warning are in order:

	-  It's possible, by holding the heat gun in one place, to
	   severely scorch or ignite the wood being stripped.  A little
	   practice on non-critical material is advised.

	-  The fumes from stripping lead paint are dangerous.  Assume
	   that most old paint is lead-based and work in a well-ventilated
	   area.

-- Ward

            I have started to strip the old paint off the woodwork
using a heat gun and an iron ,,,,but to my dismay i dont seem to be
able to get down to the wood good enough for staining, even using a 
little sand paper.... has anyone encountered this? it looks like i might
have to antique the wood instead of staining it. unless there is another
way....

                Paul

RE:.3 & .0
.3  1st) I heard of a technique that may help you, although it was
originally used for spot work. If there's paint residue in grain and holes
you want to varnish, first apply some varnish, let it sit a short time
to penetrate the pain, and wipe it off. Theoretically, the "penetrated"
paint come off with the varnish. I guess that depends on how bad you really
want to varnish the area in question.

Now .0)

I don't yet use a heat gun, but I'm getting ready to try one. I've been
using an elctro-mechanical scraper which vibrates the scraping edge. I've
had fantastic results on weathered, severely alligatored, and peeling paint,
on outside boards, and clapboard. Like its manual counterpart, small areas
are difficult, and too much time in one area can lead to gouges that look
awful (up close) after painting. Also, the chips fly so fast and furious
that even in the hot summer months I covered up all exposed critical parts
by using a face mask, hat, gloves, and close fitted clothing. (Sort of
like a paint_chip snowstorm). 

Mouldings are very difficult, as is the underside of decorative parts.

I think a combination of tools, rather than one tool would be more effective.

Maybe that's what friends are for ?
						Bob :^)

Re .3

If it's only some of the varnish that's left, you can get it off using a
rag saturated with a low grade (inexpensive) paint remover.

Re .4

I got a paint scraper at Spags to use with my heat gun on molding. It has
an eight inch handle with a ruber grip. There are two interchangable blades.
One is shaped like a triangle and the other like a tear drop. I use this
tool almost exclusivly when stripping molding. I paid seven dollars for it
and it's worth every penney.

			Fred

             Caution on the black and decker heat & Strip.... it
is worthless if you are trying to remove old paint (i.e. lead,oil paint)
   I had to return mine and get my money back! I am now using a propane
torch and the scraper that .5 talks about from spags. the combonation is 
superior. More later.

              Paul

Re -.1

I can't under stand it. I'm using the B&D heat gun for old oil base lead
paint and it works fine.

			Fred

re .3
Depending on the age of your house and the number of coats of paint you are 
dealing with, your problem may not be with the heat gun but with the type of 
paint at the bottom.

If you are really unlucky, you are dealing with "Milk Paint".

You will know this because the heat gun method creates a substance similar to 
marshmallow fluff under your scraper.  If that's your problem, your options are 
limited: 1) Paint it over and enjoy your newly painted woodwork, 2) Replace the 
woodwork, 3) Remove the woodwork and have it dipped and sanded, or 4) Repaint it
and sell your house (you probably have a lot of it).

We have some and its a !@#$% to remove completely.  The only thing I've found 
that works is to remove as much "goo" as possible with the heat gun.  Then use a
very powerful paint stripper (such as 5f5), then attack with steel wool and 
turpentine (or paint thinner), then sand.  Sound like fun, doesn't it?

Greg

         I'm not sure what " Milk paint" is cause i never heard of it.
If someone could explain, i would like to know. anyway the marshmallow
stuf you talk about did appear on the scraper but i thought it was melted
paint. We finished striping two rooms this weekend though using propane
torches and woodwork scrapers. We spent all day yesterday sanding and now
we are ready to put on the new paint  unfortunately we can not stain due 
to the fact that the paint is too far into the wood plus there are a few 
burn marks from the torch but they sand out easy.

                    Paul

    Our house was built in the early 70's. The stain of the year then
    was dark. Doors, cupboards, beams, etc was dark stain. Is there
    a way to remove this dark stain and restain the wood to a lighter
    oak tone of today.
             
    Thanks,
    
    John Ryan III

BIX water rinse paint stripper is also a stain remover, to some extent.  The 
way it works is that before you put water on it, it removes the paint or 
finish, and after you put water on it, it works as a stain remover.  I've used 
it, and it does work to some extent.  You might also try regular chlorine 
bleach.  

Be careful with water rinse strippers if you're working with veneer.  You can 
easily loosen the veneer.

Paul

    	Providing you have already removed the old finish over the stain
    (if there is a finish),You can use a two part wood bleach that is
    very effective. It is sold at places like summerville lumber and
    comes in an orange box. First you put on part A and wait about ten
    minutes then put on part B. This stuff will foam up when you put
    on part B. I usually wait for most of the foam to evaporate then
    I wipe the rest off with a rag to eliminate any chance of a water
    type stain that might remain. This stuff is very effective but
    use caution when you use it. Don't let any puddles of the two parts
    come together because you will get a reaction that will create
    nasty fumes. I don't now if these fumes are harmfull or not but
    they stink. Wear gloves because this stuff will burn your hands.
    	One other thing,after you let this stuff dry or for that 
    matter whatever type of bleach you use, mix equal parts of vinegar
    and water then wash all the surfaces that you have bleached with
    this solution. This will neutralize the bleach thats in the wood.
    If you don't do this, sometime down the road the bleach will start
    working through the new finish and make your wood work look a mess.
    	You could also use Oxalic acid but I wouldn't recomend it for
    your aplication because you have to sort of scrub with it. Using
    this to do all the wood work in a house would be a lot of work.
    If you were to use it though you should still use the vineger and
    water wash afterwards.
    
    						Mike
    

         My parents just bought new house and the people before had
         painted over the brick fireplace with a very ugly yellow. Any
         ideas on how to get the paint off the brick?  I had been told
         you can use some sort of acid and a wire brush...  Also, in
         case the brick is a sad color, does anyone have any ideas on
         what could be done to make it look better, ie. paint it
         again, panel over, etc...the pros and cons would be a help. 
         
         Thanks in advance for the help.
         
         Dan
          
          

    I heard of people renting portable sand blasting equipment from
    places like Taylor Rental and then doing a beautiful job themselves.
    If you go this route, make sure you wall off the area with plactic,
    from ceiling to floor and wear a protective breathing device, face
    mask, etc., It's a dusty job, but it is not difficult.
    

    If you sandblast, you will not believe the mess it will make.  Do
    not even think of doing it with furniture or rugs anywhere nearby.
    Seal off the room totally, cover yourself from head to to with
    a hood over your head, gauntlet gloves, high boots, buttoned collar,
    goggles, face shield, etc.  Even at that you'll be digging grit
    out of your underwear that evening, but it won't be too bad.  And
    it will get the paint off.  It may be the only way, because brick
    is so porous.  But I think I'd try other things first.

    If the brick area is small you would do much better to
    try anything and everything else before resorting to sand
    blasting.  I felt I had to to sandblast an 8' high 25' long
    brick wall.  I'm now worry for that rash decision.  
    
    Four years later I'm still *shoveling* Black Beauty grit out of the 
    furthest reaches of the room.  Even with the room completely and 
    painstakingly enclosed with plastic the sandblasting left a �' layer
    of dust over most of the rest of the building.  Even furniture in
    other rooms *under* tarps were covered with a layer of dust.  
    I can not emphasis enough what a messy job this is.

    In addition, the sandblasting completely removed the outer layer
    of the brick, leaving a rough, pitted surface with a slightly
    different (and less appealing) color than the original brick.

    The current edition of OHJ has a series of articles on brick
    and masonary maintenance and repair.  I don't recall any mention
    of the right method for removing paint.  I'm sure, however, that
    any of the paint removal methods appropriate for wood will
    work on the brick (heat guns, torches, chemicals, etc.).
    
    Good luck, and think twice before jumping into interior sandblasting.

    

    I would use Lye as a paint remover thickened with starch into a
    paste. Its the cheapest paint remover you can get and the fastest
    Ive ever used. 

    any type of paint remover will get at the paint, and then you can
    
    use muriatic(sp) acid to clean the brick.

Jumping in a bit late on this one but I've been away on a trip . . .

I went through the same thing about a year ago.  Was warned away from
sanding blasting strongly because a)the mess and b)damage to the brick as
mentioned in other replies.

I used a non-flammable paint remover called ZIPstrip with o.k results.  It
took 2 passes with the paint remover and 1 with mercuric (sp?) acid to
remove about 97% of the paint from a medium textured brick (not too rough,
but not completely smooth).  In some deep cracks, the paint didn't
come off, everywhere there seemed to be a haze on the brick.  You could 
tell that the brick had been painted the same color as the walls. 
It looked better than when it had been painted white, but not as good as
never-painted brick. Finally, as part of redoing that room, we repainted
the walls, and suddenly the fire place looked much better, like used brick
instead of painted/cleaned brick.  Seems the paint on the brick was picking
up the colors of the walls, when that color went away, the leftover paint
really receded and the warm red brick color came out.  Ain't colors neat!

Sandblasting may be the only way to get *ALL* the paint off.  Using the
paint remover was not quick or easy.  Lots of elbow grease, lots of fumes,
three steel brushes, and about two months of one or two hour nights and
more on weekends. 


Have you picked a method?  How did things turn out?

-Byron

    Muriatic acid is used to clean the fresh mortar off of newly laid
    bricks. It is used a week or so after laying the bricks. After a 
    couple weeks of cureing it has NO effect on the mortar. Cleaning
    bricks with it after removing paint that was years old is useless.
    
    

     It may have no effect on the mortar, but it sure takes off the
    dirt, soot, and grime, and I'd be willing to bet paint too! 
    
    					Kenny

re .7

At least in my case, the idea was to remove paint, not to clean the
fireplace out of existence, hence the fact that the muriatic (so that's how
it's spelled!) acid had no effect on the mortar itself was a feature rather
than a bug.  I reiterate, from personal experience, muriatic acid makes a
big difference on paint, soot, et al.  It doesn't get all of it, but it is
a big improvement.  Granted it is not pleasant stuff to work with, but the
result is worth it. 

- Byron

    Does anyone out there have any recommendations on good,
    easy, non-injurious ways of stripping woodwork? Before you
    reply, let met share my experiences:
    
    I've done all work thus far out-of-doors on breezy days. I use
    a heat gun to get off the first two or three coats of paint, then
    use STRYPEEZE to get off the last coat, and then steel wool and
    laquer thinner to clean things up. My primary concern is my health.
    Even when I do it outdoors, the fumes, whether from the heated paint
    or from the solvents, make me feel really awful - light-headed,
    shaky, weak, etc. If that were all, I guess I could put up with
    it, but how much of this can I get away with before getting severe
    CNS damage or liver cancer?
    
    I have lots of interior woodwork to strip, and I'm goping to remove
    it and have it dipped. But I'm sure there'll be leftovers (like
    sash) I'll have to do myself, possibly indoors. Any solutions?

>    Does anyone out there have any recommendations on good,
>    easy, non-injurious ways of stripping woodwork?


I know there's a note in here somewhere with lots of replies on this 
subject, but I couldn't find it!!!  Could be under keyword TOOLS or 
RENOVATING, but I couldn't find it in PAINT.



...bill

    
    
    I do not have any recommendations. But I think this is something
    that you should know before you trying to striping off ANY OLD paint
    in any old houses ( 40 yrs or older ). Many ( most ) older house
    was painted with lead-base paint when they were built in the old
    days. And the lead in the lead-base paint is hazard to health when
    swallowed ( or inhaled ) and may be fatal in the worse case. So
    I
    suggest to do it outside the house in wide open space, and make
    sure you pick up every single pieces of the removed paint so that
    children won't eat it accidentally.
    

    A real easy way to remove the paint is to remove the woodwork and
    sit it on the roof of the garage, porch( or whatever) for the winter.
    
    Next spring, there'll be little or no paint left.
    
    
    too bad you have to wait so long!
    
    
    The people who the state recommend for de-leading houses say that
    a good, sharp dry scraper is the best way.  Avoid heat/flames and
    chemicalss.  (I've never done this, but these people do it for a
    living)
    
    
    -bill

    	I refinish furniture on a part time bassis and I have some of
    the same concerns you do about the hazards of chemicals. I have
    tried dry scraping with pieces of broken glass and steel scrapers
    and this is fine for flat surfaces but any curves or indentations
    are hard to do. What I might reccomend is a product called TSN by
    Savogran. It is Trisodium phosfate (I think that's how it's spelled)
    and in a nut shell it's a mild form of LYE. It has no hazardous
    fumes and the only thing you want to be carfull with is that it
    doesn't sit on your skin for too long or get in your eye's because
    it will burn. You might want to mag some sort of vat. A cheap one
    would be one of those big rubber maid trash cans, TSN will not
    melt the rubber. Mix the TSN powder with water and make a strong
    solution. This stuff is fairly cheap it cost's about $5.00 for a
    5 pound box. Fill up the trash can with this solution and submerse
    the pieces to be stripped. Let the pieces sit in there for about
    a half hour then take them out and wash them off with a hose and
    scrub them with a nylon brush. You may have to be done more than
    once but this is a much safer method than other chemicals. By the
    way TSN is the active ingrediant in products like Spic and Span,
    only in a much weaker form. I would suggest buying a smaller 1 pound
    box of this stuff and try it for yourself with a small piece of
    woodwork and see if this works for you.
    
    					good luck
    					
    					Mike 

    Be careful with TSP and your eyeglasses.  It etches glass and left
    a small water mark on mine.  I guess that's better than one on the
    eye itself.  I use it mixed with bleach to get the mildew off the
    cedar siding on my house (gonna restain).

    RE: .4
    
    Wouldn't soaking wood in a TSP-water solution do a number on the
    wood???  And possibly any glue joints???
    

    Just for the record, trisodium phosphate is not a mild form of lye;
    it's a different chemical.  Lye is sodium hydroxide.
    
    TSP works better on some kinds of paint than others - as is true
    of any paint remover, I suppose.

    RE. 6
    	Submersing furniture in a vat of TSP could effect the glue
    joints in furniture. I don't emerse whole pieces of furniture
    in this stuff. I usually knock apart small tables and such that
    need regluing any way and soak the various pieces. It will also
    raise the grain a little but a lite sanding will take care of this.
    
    re. 7
    	Sorry for the the comparison of TSP to LYE. I'm not a Chemist
    but I thought I read it or some one told me that it was a mild
    form of LYE. A word about LYE. It is a very strong stripper and
    although it does not have toxic fumes it can burn your skin,definatly
    melt glue joints and dry the hell out of wood. If you use it
    experiment with it first to get the right mix and the amount of
    time you allow a piece to sit in the stuff. 

I have read one note which indicates paint removal contractors charge boo-coo
bucks.  I also got a guide from the state of MA which details their lead paint
removals guidelines and laws.  

I have lead paint and milk paint, possibly some oil based paint and a a few top 
layers of latex paint.  Quite the cross section of paint history, I'd guess. 
This quaint villa dates back to the turn of this century and looks like every
owner has tried to "contribute" something to it, from dart board holes and
skewed wallpaper to much nicer things like new furnace and a deck.

But I'm at a loss.  I like the shape of the old-fashioned wood underneath, just
not the layers of chipped and repainting.  Should I chuck the woodwork and get
new fangled stuff (doors, frames, baseboard, windows, railings, posts) or
should I strip it myself following the state guidelines, or should I hire a
contractor to strip it all?

I cannot find a contractor (under painters in the Yellow pages) who admits to
stripping paint, much less stripping LEAD paint. Where can I find qualified and
reliable businesses who will strip lead paint? How much can I expect them to
charge (a nasty vague question)?

\bob

    When our place was inspected for lead paint, they gave us a list
    of contractors known do to lead paint removal, I'll see if I can
    dig it up.  (it was for the Newton area though)
    
    Check with the local health department, they may be able to provide
    you with a similar list in your area.
    
    -bill

I've got the exact same problem.  I was going to strip it myself, but some 
friends of mine in the health care profession told me some horror stories 
about inhaling lead paint dust. BAD STUFF!  Way worse than eating it. 
Wearing a dust mask won't protect you either. The dust it extremely fine. 
Once in your body, it hangs around for years.

I'm opting to remove the fancy trim and bring it 
to a stripper to have it dipped.  The design of the trim is nice, and I 
can't see ruining the decor of the house with plain ol' pine boards. I was 
quoted a price of $30 per panel door. The price per window of trim hasn't been 
agreed upon yet. Getting new trim made is also expensive (see notes elsewhere).

So far the stuff that has returned is great.  Since I'm going to re-paint 
anyway, any gouges and nail holes are easily filled. Before dipping, make
sure you mark every piece with a wood burning iron on the bad side. You'll 
have the jig-saw puzzle of the century if you don't.  Remember, ink
gets stripped off. 

The state guidelines for lead paint removal don't advocate chemical 
strippers, but as far as I'm concerned, it's the only practical choice 
open to me. The kick boards along the floor are getting covered with 1/8" 
luan plywood. This looks just fine, with new moulding on top. 

My uncle had pro scrapers do an apartment bldg for him.. WHAT A MESS. They 
wear oxygen masks, and they kick everyone out of the bldg for 2 days. It's 
true that it is VERY expensive to do it that way.

This has been a real pain for me, and it has cost some $$$$.  BUT, I think that 
any effort to get rid of the lead paint is worth it.

p.s.   I tried using stripping goo myself. It will only remove 2 or 3 
layers at a time.  It's still aLOT of work. 

have fun ;-)
...bill

The state would not give me any references, neither did the lead inspector. 
The inspection company only gave me a letter saying "Yes you have lead paint",
but not any indication of how much.  FWIW I used Astra Home Inspections in
Lunenburg at $10 a sample.

Thanks for the info.  Do keep the REPLYs coming in for anyone else looking here
for the same help.

\bob

    When I go home tonight, I'll try to find the letter we got from
    the health inspector.   It has several contractors listed in it
    as "people who are known by us who remove lead paint"   The letter
    goes out of its way to say that they don't know how good these
    contractors are or do not recommend them.
        

    We didnt' have to pay anything for the inspection, but that was
    probably because the possible tenant was subsidized housing and
    they have to inspect the place anyway.  (you wouldn't believe what
    they bitch and moan about)  We didn't end up renting to her because
    the place does have lead paint.  (we're allowed, it's only a 2 family
    and we live in it)
    

    Also, the lead inspector should have given you more than "yes, you
    have lead paint, thank you" but the locations of the lead paint.
    (there are many instances where there is only lead paint in a couple
    of places)
    
    There is really no way to tell "how much" lead paint is there, but
    if there is any, the paint has to be removed down to the bare wood
    in order for it to be certified lead free.
    
    -bill

    
    We contracted Winston Sullivan, from Lawrence Mass., to do deleading
    in our two family in Lowell and I would highly recommend him. He does
    not strip the wood, he sands it. So if you wanted to keep some fancy
    woodwork intact it would be both difficult and expensive. 
    
    As for the cost. The apartments have six rooms each with a good
    amount of hallways and windows. He charged $3000 for both, excluding
    the exterior of the house which would have been another $2000. We
    opted to replace the exterior painted wood and repaint it ourselves.
    
    If you wanted to remove the paint yourself I would recommend stripping
    with a chemical stripper or take the peices to a place and have
    them dipped, I don't know of such a place but would think that they
    are easy to find. Using a heat gun or sand blaster would imbed the
    lead into the woodwork. A suitable mask to protect you while sanding
    would cost about $400. A little cheaper than the $5000 and clearly
    an option.
    
    woodwork 
    
    good luck,
    wayne 
     
    

    
    
    I forgot to mention that his phone number is 454 6229 and that he
    is very active in this state educating people of the dangers of 
    lead paint and the equipment being used to delead.
                                                     
    

We are trying to decide what to do with the outside of the house, 
paint/stain or vinyl.

There are MANY coats of paint on the house, the preference would be to 
strip the clapboards and stain.  I think if it came down to sanding 
the loose paint and painting again, the siding would win.  If we could 
get stain on there that would last longer and not peal, it would be a 
viable solution.

I have read the previous notes on this subject, but they are all quite 
old.  

SANDBLASTING - What does this cost?  Who does it in the Maynard area?

CHEMICAL STRIPPING - Does this work?  Cost?  Who? 

DRY ICE BLASTING - One mention of this in an old note.  Is it a viable 
solution?  how do you get info?  cost?  who?

WATER BLASTING - Does this work?  cost?  who? 
 

Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you

    To find out about sandblasting, you might try calling B C Industries
    in Worcester (152 Webster St.).  I had some old radiators sandblasted 
    by them, and I found them to be very nice people to deal with.  I
    don't know if they would do a house or not, but they could probably 
    give you information.  I suspect that as far as sandblasting companies 
    are concerned, Worcester is "local" to Maynard.  
    
    For what it's worth, DEC used Cherry in Boston to sandblast the
    interior of the Mill.  Again, no idea if they would do a house.

    I too have to "un-paint" my house before re-painting it.  I scrapped
    several rows of shingles with a putty knife and wire brush.  I got
    all loose paint off.  A week later when I came back to paint it
    more of that %!*&? paint came off!  I don't want to paint this house
    and have it peel in a year!  Chemicals and sandblasting are out.

    Has anybody ever tried one of those electric scrappers?  Are they
    any good?

    
    
    Staining clapboards which have been painted would require removal
    of all the paint (I assume). I know of no way of doing this except
    one of the previous mentioned methods e.g. sandblasting ( how well
    does wood stand up under a sand blast?)
    
    I have had experience (last summer) in removing several layers of
    paint from clapboards so that they can be repainted. Most of my
    house had several layers of old paint, so that removing just the
    loose paint left rough edges. These can be sanded to smooth the
    edges or the still well stuck paint can be removed. Do not try
    and scrap any well attached off the house. This will damage the
    clapboards. I used an electric heat tool (available at hardware
    stores for around $30.) made for this purpose. You heat with one
    hand and scrap with a putty knife in the other. Slow but effective.
    
    Again, I'm not sure about staining over small amounts of paint,
    but you're sure to have some still well embedded in the wood.
    
    One other thing, I found out that it takes a lot of beer to paint
    a house. (not included in the budget)
    
    				- Joel

    RE: electric heat guns for removing paint:
    They work.  However, those of you who travel route 27 from Maynard
    to Acton may recall a house file a year or more ago just before
    the railroad bridge in South Acton.  It was started by somebody
    removing paint with a heat gun.  So...BE CAREFUL!!!

    
    I've read about stripping in one of the DIY books (Time-Life,
    maybe), and they suggested using a power stripper/heat gun,
    and then finishing off with an orbital sander.  All in all
    a big job, I'm sure, but cheaper than paying somebody to
    sandblast.
    
    TM

I have been able to find out that it costs $500 - $2000 to sandblast a 
house, depending on size.

I have one company giving me an estimate, and am chasing a couple of 
others.  One problem is that I can not find people who have had it 
done to refer companies.  The other is that although there are many 
companies in the phone book, they don't tell you that they only do 
metal fabrication pieces, or bridges, etc. until you call; so it has 
been a tedious project just to find someone who does houses.

If we can get it done that inexpensively, then we will stain the house 
afterwards ourselves.

if anyone knows of anyone who does this, PLEASE let me know.

Karen - who really doesn't want to vinyl side a 100 year old house but 
        who won't paint just to have it peel in 2 years.

    re: .6
    
    	If your house is 100 yrs. old you could be asking for big
    trouble by having it sand blasted. Wood tends to age differently
    with the "soft" grain becoming much softer than the "hard" grain.
    When you sand blast old wood you, therefore, get a very uneven
    surface where the soft wood has been gouged out at a much greater
    rate than the hard wood. Sand blasting will also totally destroy
    any dried out edges or small areas of rot.
    Sandblasting can literally tear old siding, particularly shingles,
    right off a wall. So, again, CAVEAT EMPTOR.
    
    	If you have this done make sure that you understand EXACTLY
    what the end result is going to look like when the contractor
    leaves. Try and visit a job in progress so you can see what you
    will be left to deal with in the way of smoothing (sanding, scraping).
    
    Alan
    
    	

    			-< Try a siding grinder >-
    
    I had occasion to repaint my ~100 year old house last year and tried
    a few techniques for paint removal. I finally settled on using
    a siding grinder. This is basically a disk sander with guides which
    both set depth of cut and prevent you from destroying the edge of
    the next higher clapboard. Loose paint shatters in a shower of dust,
    while adhering paint grinds smoothly away. It took me about a week
    to prepare my house for painting (2 stories, moderate size).
    
    Porter Cable made the unit I rented. These grinders cost about $150
    to $200, so figure how long you will rent and compare against the
    purchase price. The units could also double as floor edge sanders,
    if you are contemplating that sort of work as well.
    
    N.B. Wear a good respirator when sanding. Old paint contains lead...

When you say a week, do you mean a week of summer evenings 5-9 or 
a week of vacation, 8 hrs a day?

Also, was the surface paint-free enough for stain or just paint?

Thanks,

karen

    I would believe that you could get a very uneven surface from
    sandblasting an old building.  I work at the Mill complex,
    where there has been *mega* sand blasting, and those uneven
    surfaces are visible *every*where.  The grain of the blasted
    wood is raised.  While this may look OK in the Mill, I would
    be very upset if my house was sand blasted and came out looking
    like that.  If you are not that familiar with the Mill, why
    don't you come here (there's always a seminar to attend),
    and see for yourself.
    
    Also, I have quite a bit of ornamental trim on my house.  
    If you have this on your house, I would definitely consider 
    removing it before the house is sand blasted.  Clapboards
    can be replaced but the trim would be difficult to redo.
    
    -TM

    It took a week of solid effort to grind all the paint off the house.
    The surface was fine for painting, but not clean enough for staining.
    The grinder doesn't reach the bottom lip of the clapboard, which
    means you still have to resort to scraping (or heat). Given that
    4 inches or so of surface was ground (really sanded) smooth, and
    about 1/2 inch needed to be scraped on each clapboard, grinding
    saved a lot of time over the other hand techniques I tried. I was
    still very tired by the time I finished.

    
    A well prepared and properly painted house will not lose it's paint
    in two years. I'm hoping on 10.
    
    Steps I took:
    
    		Remove all the paint that you can.
    
    		Fix any rotten or damaged areas and make sure the house
    		has adequate ventilation.
    		
    		Wash with TSP and clorine bleach.
    
    		Caulk with best quality latex caulk.
    
    		Use only the best quality paint (primer and topcoat).
                                        
    You'll be well rewarded with a great looking house and a paint job
    you know won't fall apart in two years.

    A very good friend of mine is a painter who has been in the business
    about 1 1/2 years.  From talking to him, and working with him, I
    think I have some knowledge that may be beneficial.  
    
    For one, I recommend that you do not sandblast.  This can chip the
    wood badly especially on an old house.  This friend of mine stripped
    and stained an old Victorian house in Pepperell on rt 111 (its
    grey/blue with a red barn.)  The method he used was as follows:
    
    There is a specific chemical which can take many layers of paint
    off (the Victorian has about 50 years worth of paint on it!).  I
    do not know the name of the chemical but I do know it is non-toxic
    and biodegradable.  You slap this on the house and then wash off.
    I am not sure if you have to wait a few hours before washing off
    or not.  How to wash it off?  This friend has a machine called a
    Pressure Washer which makes the pressure of water high, and this
    is used to wash off the house.  Then you use a neutralizer on the
    house and wash it.  But you cannot paint for 10 days after this
    method.  Then you use a stain.  The paint job he did on the Victorian
    will last at least 5-10 years without pealing.  
    
    Would you like more info?  Send me mail on NIKON::Santos and if
    you would like, maybe I can get you in touch with my friend and
    he can help you out.  Believe me, he knows alot.
    
    Dawnne
    

    
    RE:  1687.13
    
    If possible, could you talk to your friend and get more info?
    I (and I'm sure others) am interested in knowing more about this
    method.  My main concern about this method concerns lead paint.
    That old Victorian almost certainly had many layers of lead paint.
    I understand that chemical strippers carry lead into the air
    (and thus your lungs), so should not be used.  Perhaps, with a
    good mask this might be OK, since it is outside.  Also, 
    the wash water may carry lead into the soil (and ground water).
    
    I was wondering if it might be safer to take off as much paint as
    possible with a heat gun/scraper, and collect the scrapings on some
    plastic around the house, before a method like this is used.
    
    TM

    
    
    I have sat back for 14 or so replies about removing paint from wood,
    and I thought I would add my 2 cents. I have been around sandblasting
    and paint strippers for years and they both have there good and
    bad points. As far as paint removal on a whole house, blasting is
    the most economical way to go, time and money wise. You notice I
    use the word blasting not sandblasting. We don't use sand we use
    crushed Walnut shells and speedydry (oil absorbent). It does not 
    destroy the wood, in fact it, if the operator knows what he is doing
    the wood will remain smooth and will not be gouged. 
    We do both soft and hard wood furniture with this method also. The
    use of walnut shells and speedydry came about looking for a perfect
    method to strip paint from fiberglass Corvetts and not destroy the
    gelcoat. It works well and has proved to be a boast to business.
    
    Jim....also known as the MAD Blaster.  a.k.a. The Mad Weldor....Jim

re .13 -  I would like to know more about this method, either directly
from your friend or through you.  I am willing to take it off line, 
but I feel that other people may also want to know about this method, 
as illustrated in .14

re .15 -  Jim,

	You are saying that you use this method on furniture and cars, 
but do you do homes?  Do you know of anyone who does homes with this 
method?  I would be interested in finding out more about this.  Maybe 
we should take this off line.


I am reading all of these replies, and stacking up the pros, cons, and 
other ideas.

THANKS !!

karen

    I was thinking about water blasting my painted house so i can stain
    this coming summer.  I talked to a couple of firms at a home show.
    When you have water blasting done, they recommend getting A LOT
    of hay and laying a THICK COVER EVERYWHERE around your house so
    no grass or soil will be damaged.
    
    Sounded too dangerous to me.  I'll be sanding.
    
    Elaine

    Re -.1
    
    Sanding? Safer?  Unless you have a new house, the old paint may
    contain lead.  Even if you wear a mask, you will get dust in your
    hair, on your clothes, under your fingernails.  When you go inside
    to change, of course, you are going to bring all this in the house
    with you.  A pressure washer will cut your lawn if you stick it in the
    dirt, and it will peel of your skin off if you put hand over it.
    Don't do either and you will be fine.
    
    gjd
     

    re : .18
    
    Sorry, I should have clarified.  My house is less than 10 years
    old, and has latex... no lead.  I'd only suggest asking what they
    use besides water to "wash" the house, and buy plenty of hay.  Then
    figure out how to dispose of the contaminated hay.
    
    Elaine
    

    Hi,
    
    I was watching "this Old House" this past Saturday and saw them
    removing paint with a new product that looked like joint compound.
    did anybody catch the name and the price of this wonder??? If only
    it could be as easy as it looked...
    
    all the guy did was to put this gunk (I love technical talk) on
    the woodwork with a putty knife (a coat of 1/8 to 1/4 thick) and
    then he put a covering of this special paper-like material on top
    of it.  when the paper turns brown (in about 24 hours) you take
    it off and up comes the old paint...(up to about 20 layers, I think
    he said)...I'd appreciate any help on this product.  
    
    thanks,
    
    Rosie

	I think I saw "Peel Away" or "Peel It" somewhere on the screen.

	Our pal Norm troweled generous gobs of the gunk on the fluted
	molding around the fireplace.  Just wait till next week when
	they have to show us the result!

	Regards, Robert.

     Peel Away is advertized in the Renovator's Supply catalog.  In my
experience it doesn't work nearly as well as they say it does.  You can't 
leave it on the wood too long or the wood gets really soft.  The cover you 
put over it doesn't stay on very well.  And I couldn't get more than two 
coats off at a time.  But I would still buy more because it has no
noxious/toxic side effects.  I used it in my bathroom in the middle of the
winter, and didn't have to ventilate.  Just be patient.

    
        Re  .2
                  Where can you buy this stuff? Is it expensive? This
    sounds like just what I need to continue the renovating that came
    to a halt when the windows had to be closed...
             
    

    If you watch the credits at the end of the show the tell you the
    suppliers for the products used.
    
    On this show Sherwinn Williams is listed and suspect that they are
    the supplier for this stuff.
    
    Norm did say the stuff was expensive.
    
    David.
    

    
    Is the stuff safe to use on lead paint?
    
    and,
    
    Does the stuff work on thick varnish?
    
    
    
    --th�r�se
    

    
    How much$$$$$$$$$$$ ?
    and in what quanty ?
    

I'm asking this question for a friend:

   If you strip the paint off some woodwork in an old house, and
   the bare wood tests positive for lead (i.e., the original
   primer was lead-based...), is there anything you can treat/seal
   the wood with (e.g., epoxy paint, polyurethane, etc.) -- to mask 
   the lead -- to eliminate the positive reading -- and still be able
   to re-finish the wood with new paint or stain?

Thanks...

/donna gibeau
   

    To add onto this note, has anyone had experience with lead paint
    and the law?
    
    Has anyone with children under 6 years of age had their house 
    tested within the last year or two for lead paint?  If so, what
    was the testing process like?  Did the testers take chips of paint
    to test or did they scratch through to the wooden surface?
    
    If the paint tested positive for lead, what did you have to do 
    to delead?
    
    Arline
    

    The testing is rather simple.  They have a hand-held unit that they
    press up against the paint.  It shines some kind of special light/beam
    on the paint, and presto!  The reading comes up on the handle.
    
    
    NO chips, scratches or anything else.
    
    
    -bill
    
    
    (I think the light is some kind of phosphorescent beam, but I'm
    not sure)
    
    

    There are different ways to test lead paint. One is the hand-held
    unit that was descripted in the previous note. The other method
    is to scratch the painted surface to bare wood ( or cut a little
    chip off ) and then apply some chemical solution. Is Mass, if the
    painted surface contains lead, and if there are children under age of
    6 living in the premises, you MUST remove the lead paint on the
    wall from 5 ft down. This also include wooden window frame, stair,
    etc.. They are also talking about a lead-paint law that the house
    must be deleaded before it can be sold.  I would definately check
    for lead paint before buying the property, cause it may cost you
    big bucks later when you want to sell it. For child sake, if there
    are leadpaint, I would definately de-lead them.
    

    All children are tested for lead in Mass. This is a state law now.
    If your child tests positive you will find out first hand and very
    quickly exactly what the law is. Mine did, and I did. The previous
    owner mixed his own paint, including the lead, and put in extra
    for good luck (this from a neighbor who helped).
    
    The first house we bought needed painting badly, it was flaking
    off like snow. Our 18 month old apparently picked up a chip and
    ate it, that's all it takes, 'cause we were very concerned about
    the problem to begin with and watched him carefully whenever he
    was out side. Within two weeks a state inspector was out and testing
    our house. We then had 30 days to correct the problem. I had to
    go to court (purely a formality) to get an extension as it is
    rather difficult to paint a house in March.
    
    Thankfully we had virtually no paint inside, just the bathroom
    woodwoork. All surfaces with lead paint have to be HAND SCRAPED
    to remove all loose paint AND ALL OUTSIDE CORNERS (not outside
    the house, outside of the corner) HAVE TO BE STRIPPED TO BARE
    WOOD TO A HEIGHT OF 5 FEET. It cost us $1300 just for the stripping
    of the outside of the house 5 years ago.
    
    Alan

    OHJ (Old House Journal) just ran an article on hazardous removal
    last issues and that's worth checking out.  There's too much info
    on lead paint removal for me to type it all in here so I'll respond
    to only a few points.
    
    That hand held meter that they showed recently on that near worthless
    discussion on lead paint removal on This Old House use cobalt or
    some such radioactive material.  So the meter is big bucks and you
    need a license to own one.  There are two in the state of New
    Hampshire.  In a subsequent reply I'll post an 800 number you can
    call in NH for lots of good info on lead paint hazard and removal.
    For about $6 per sample you can mail in paint samples and they'll
    test it for you.  You can send a chip the size of you thumbnail
    or a teaspoon full of scrapings.  
    
    There are several ways to remove the lead paint and their free brochure
    describes the various methods and their merits.  Lead paint is a
    serious hazard and unfortunately its somewhat insidious.  Your child
    may not be retarded, his IQ is just 10 to 15 points lower than it
    would have been had they not been exposed to lead from ingesting
    the dust when you sand that piece of furniture, or from lead disolved
    in drinking water from sweated copper plumbing or from playing in
    the dirt near a major road where lead from auto emissions has settled.

    The number for the Lead Poisoning Prevention Program NH is
    800-852-3345 ext 4507.
    
    For sending paint samples, they need .2 grams, (about 3 or 4 thumbnail
    sized pieces) or (1/2 teaspoon of scrapings) and its $5 per sample
    to have it tested.
    
    
    -Bob

I went through this a few years ago when I bought my house-good luck.

To put it simply any house more than 20 years old or old has lead paint-period.
That's all there was back then. 

The testing methods are archaic and error prone.  I had the house tested 
three times before I got an accurate reading.  The first test was the most
common one used.  They come in and drop some chemical on a crack or razor 
cut in the paint.  If it turns black then you have lead (or iron or wood or...)
This technique suggested that we had lead paint on our radiators.  Imagine
stripping 20 radiators.  Fortunately a chemist friend warned us of how 
error prone this technique is.  We got access to a real chemical analysis
lab which could tell which layer of paint had lead in it.  Good news, only
lead was in two rooms despite being built in the 1800's.  Apparently most
of the woodwork was varnished until recently.

The removal techniques are expensive, may be destructive, and may cause more
problem than they fix.  It's kind of like asbestos.  Better you should leave
it there than remove it the wrong way.    Legally, I believe that you can 
"cover" the paint but you probably won't want to-cover all molding up to 4 
feet with sheet metal or plastic.  We were "lucky" and had the paint removed
professionally at the seller's expense in the two rooms.  With the curtains
up, you can hardly notice :-).

The legal situation is a nightmare.  If someone in the house has lead poisoning
then you definitely have to fix it and there are penalties if you don't.  If you
have lead and young children then you must remove it-but there are no penalties
if you don't (don't ask me, I didn't make the law).  If you have no young
children then you can do whatever you want. 

The outside of the house is a different story.  Our house had been stripped
15 years ago so we had no lead on the outside but you can be sure that the
ground around the house is creeping with lead.  

The bottom line which I got as a recommendation from a state (MA) lead type 
person is to move the kids playground/swingset away from the house and make
sure that you have NO peeling or flaking paint anywhere in the house.  Since
it was free (to us) we had the front two rooms stripped.  

    One of the main reasons why lead paint is a problem for children
    is that the chips taste sweet, kind of like chocolate cherries.
    

    
    
    Hi,
    
    I have a 2 part question I hope someone can help me with.
    
    I would like to know the best way to clean a rusty wrought iron
    railling. Do I use an steel brush to get all the loose stuff off
    Is there some type of attatchment for a drill I can use (like a
    grinding bit) to clean off all the rust and old paint to make
    cleaning easier/faster.
    
    Also I had vinyl siding put on the house a few months back and the
    raillings didn't get re-attatched to the house,because I was going
    to replace them but later decided to keep the old ones and clean
    them up and re attatch them later.
    
    How should I re-attatch them to the house and vinyl siding ????
    
    What should I use to paint the railling with.
    
    
    Thanks in advance......
    
    
    	Wayne

    to clean the railings, I suggest use of the wire brush attachment
    in the drill.  depending on access, either the wheel or the cup.
    BE SURE TO WEAR SAFETY GLASSES OR GOGGLES
    
    Rustoleum is great for painting - use their primer and their paint.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    Also think about taking the railings someplace and getting them
    sandblasted and primed.  The cost is relatively low, and it is 
    SO much easier!  I got some radiators done a while ago at 
    B-C Industries in Worcester, and would recommend them.
    I don't recall just what I paid, but it might have been $20 per
    radiator, for sandblasting and priming.  

    I had some wheels sandblasted for a car that I was restoring at
    a local monument (tombstone) shop.  Very cheap and a great job!
    
    Good idea, since the railing is removed!
    
    	-Barry-
    

    
    Thanks for the cleaning suggestions,I'll have to try using an
    attatchment for my drill to clean the raillings with,due to the
    fact that the raillings are still cemented to the last stair.
    
    
    How should I re-attatch the top part of the raillings to the house
    and siding after it is re-painted. I think they used some kinda
    large hex-type screw before.  any suggestions???????
    
    
    Thanks/...........................wayne 

    Those large hex-type screws are called lag bolts, you can find them
    at any hardware store.  They are supporting a railing that divides
    our kitchen from family room; four in the floor and one in the wall
    make a sturdy 6-foot long railing.  Your mileage may vary.
    
    pbm
    

    Can anyone post some information comparing the strengths of various
    heat guns?  A friend of mine just got one at Sears but it does not
    seem to produce quite enough heat - it's rated at 11 amps.
    Do most other models have more power, or is this about average?

    thanks
    Mark    

    Re: .10  Heat gun power ...
    
    Yes, heat guns vary quite a bit.  The better ones usually have 2 power
    settings.  Mine does, but I forgot the brand name. The high setting is
    usually best for stripping paint, and the low setting is good for
    working around delicate materials (like glass).  One of the things I
    noticed when I shopped around for one is that Brand A says it puts out
    x Watts, Brand B says it is rated at y Amps, and Brand C says it heats
    to z degrees Farenheight. Very annoying when you are trying to compare. 
    
    Beware - prices for these tools are often very inflated.  The local
    hardware store sells a Wagner (good heat gun with 2 temperature
    settings) for about $50, including 3 nozzel/attachments.  I saw the
    same one on sale at Mars for $20 without the attachments (also a
    Milwaukee for the same price).  I bought mine at Spags ($20 with 2
    nozzels), and the Nozzels usually run about $5 a piece, but some of
    them are hard to find. 
    
    Most of the small-time hardware stores just carry Black and Decker.
    At the time I was looking, all Black and Decker had was 1 model with
    only 1 setting (not very powerful).  Maybe that's what Sears sells.
    The other thing that I didn't like about the B&D is that you could not
    stand the thing up on it's end.  It is very important to be able to set
    the thing down in such a way that the hot end does not touch the
    floor/table surface.  These things get *extremely* hot.  I accidentally
    touched the hot end of the gun to my pant leg, and it seared through
    the material instantly. 
    
    -tm
    
    p.s.  If you have any more questions I'd be happy to answer them.
    

    re .1:  Thanks, that is good info -
    
    Your comment about amps vs watts vs degrees is astute; the Sears
    gun only has an Amps rating and produces around (if I remember)
    850F degrees.  How hot do other guns get?  We are considering returning
    the Sears gun and getting a more powerful model.
    
    Mark
    
    

    
    	I've got some samples of paint chips that I would like to be
    tested to see if they have lead.  Does anyone know of a service
    that I could send paint chips to and they will check them out?
    Any idea how much this costs?
    
    					=Ralph=

    I am gearing up to paint my house.  Its a big one and I am planning
    on using the water stripper.  I am assured by the guy at the local
    Taylor Rental store that it will remove all the paint that my scraper
    will and a lot more.  The cost is approx. $70.00/day and don't feel
    like renting it and being disappointed, by having to do the whole
    house with a scraper if it does indeed only take off the very loose
    stuff.
    
    The house has cedar shingles, and the paint is peeling, cracking,
    and doing all those things paint does when its not cared for 
    properly. It needed to be done 5 years ago. (we just bought it)
    
    I intend on getting off all the failed paint, prime and paint with
    a  high quality oil base paint.  ( I don't want to do this too often)
    
    So if anybody has used this unit please lets hear from your. 
    It has a honday compressor and the pressure comming out of the nozzle
    is approx. 2200 lbs. of pressure.
    
    john

    There's at least one thing I'd be careful of here.  With that 
    kind of pressure, you can force water into all kinds of places 
    it shouldn't go: under shingles or clapboards and into the wall 
    cavity, for instance.  But it will remove loose paint, no doubt 
    about that.  It will also remove dirt, which would probably be
    a good thing too.  Whether it will do as good a job as hand
    scraping...I dunno.  My guess is it won't.  The guys who painted
    my house a couple of years ago used one and so far the paint
    job is holding up pretty well, but that's really no indication
    of what you might expect.

    The other thing to be careful about is Newton.  For every force
    there is an equal and opposite force.
    
    If you're up on a ladder this thing could easily throw you.

    I rented this machine last year to do my house with cedar shingles.
    I found that if you get close enough to start stripping paint away,
    you start damaging the shingles. So then, you back away and it doesn't
    remove any paint. I had about 5 layers of paint that was BADLY
    alligatored and didn't have much peeling. So in the areas where
    it is cracking and not peeling, that paint is still well adhered
    to the house. The only thing you can do with it is sand it down.
    I finally used the pressure washer to clean the house with TSP,
    and then went around with my scraper and sandpaper for two weeks.
    
    Hope it works for you,
    Tim

    
    
      Hi John, I painted my last house which had cedar shingles and
    hand scraped it first. Any good painter will tell you hand scraping
    is the best most effective way to remove all loose paint. It's tedious
    but well worth it. I also washed my house after with a soft wire
    brush to remove all the dust and chalk buildup. 
      Anyways I painted it with oil base paint from Spags (Benjamin Moore)
    I just sold the place, and after almost four years the place looked
    freshly painted. The buyers though it was. Made selling a peice
    of cake.
    
    
    Brian who also got a tan

    
    I rented one to clean my deck - unstained P.T. wood with really
    ground-in dirt, and it made the deck look like new - I was amazed
    at how well it worked (you do have to be careful not to hold it
    so close that it damages the wood).
    
    I happened to be in the process of painting my house at the time
    (all this work was in preparation for selling) and I tried it on
    the back wall (the front and sides were already hand-scraped).  It did
    a satisfactory job on loose paint and really cleaned well, but I
    also had some trouble avoiding damage to the cedar shingles (you
    have to hold it pretty close to lift paint).  All in all I was
    happy with the results - I had to do a little hand scraping after
    the sprayer but it did save me some time.  And if you have a deck
    give it a try, it works great.
    
    I agree with the warning about using it on ladders, it really gives
    quite a kick.  Another warning is that to do an entire house may
    require 3 or more days of rental - I needed two days for the deck
    and back wall of the house because to get enough pressure you have
    to use a pretty narrow spray (3 to 4 inches).  Don't know if you
    planned on $210+ just for scraping.
    
    I'd wait a week after spraying to allow any embedded water to
    evaporate, so it doesn't get captured under the paint.

    Bill

    I looked at all the refinishing/painting/staining notes but didn't
    find one that dealt with this particular subject, so I figured I'd
    start one.  Any objections?  No?  Good. :-)

    I have an end table (two, actually) whose top has a leather inset.
    These belonged to a older relative who went through a phase of painting
    all her furniture white, I'm told it was the style for a bit back
    then.  When she painted this table, she covered the entire thing
    with white paint, including the leather top.
    
    Now I would like to take the paint off and am wondering about any
    special actions I should take with the leather inset.  It is starting
    to peel away at the edges, I felt it and it's almost bone dry.
    
    1) Do I use a special paint remover for the leather inset?  It would
    seem that most paint removers would be too harsh and dry it out
    further.
    
    2) What do I use to glue the edges back down?  Plain old Elmer's?
    
    3) What can I use to soften the leather once I have removed the
    paint?  Will rubbing saddle soap in be enough?
    
    4) If after I have removed the paint, I notice that it is an off
    color or has varying degrees of color (assuming the worst here),
    can I stain the leather?  Can I use the same stain as I will be
    using on the wood part?  How can I waterproof it?  Will mink oil
    work?
    
    The total leather area is approx 1.5' x 1.5' in a concave square
    shape. 
    
    Thank you, 
      Sharon
        
    
    
    

I'm not sure of the best way to get it off, but once you do, use Lexol to treat 
the leather.  It's specially formulated to replace the natural oils.  You can 
buy it at Agway garden centers, among other places (people use it on saddles)

Paul

    How about using that Lexol stuff to try to get the paint off?  I
    assume that the surface is somewhat pliable, so by working a greasy
    substance into it and cracking the paint, it might get behind it,
    get absorbed by the leather and break the bond.  Kind of like when
    water gets behind paint and it blisters off.
    
    Could hurt it a lot less than some kind of solvent.
    
    -joet

    Hi,
    	I am trying to determine the cost of lead-paint removal. 
    
    	I am in process of buying a house. In the home inspection it
    showed lead-paint in all windows/doors (80+ year house). So i want
    to negotiate down the price. 
    	House is colonial, 13 windows, 14 doors, (porch windows 8),
    house has vinial siding. Windows are 40"x60", porch windows are
    big (i dont know the size).
    
    As i can see there are 2 alternates.
    1. Have it de-laded professionaly
        I was quoted 5-6 K. to scrap and then sand and paint.
    2. Replace windows + replace door borders (6-8 doors are just frames)
    	+ replace doors. 
    
    	What are the rough prices i should go by for the option #2.

    	Do i have any other option ? I still can get out of the deal
    so that's not the problem. However if something resonable can be
    worked out i would like to buy the house.
    
    Thanks for the help in advance.
    Robert

    Just a Question - whats wrong with lead ? I know its not good to
    eat so you wouldnt want it on a crib or something but does it give
    off fumes or something ?
    
    Rod ( silly European )
    

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
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If for any reason, after examining these notes, you wish to continue the 
discussion here, send me mail and this note will be un-writelocked immediately 
and without question.

Paul [Moderator]

    This note is re-opened, according to moderator's instructions i
    have modified the title to refelect the intent.
    
    thank you
    Robert

    In answer to .1:
    There is presently a great deal of concern in this country about
    lead paint.  I gather that the problems have been primarily in old 
    apartment complexes with peeling lead paint, that childern have 
    picked up chips of and eaten. Personally, I cannot recall ever having 
    an urge as a kid to eat paint chips, but maybe I'm just weird. 
    There have also been problems aound the outsides of buildings that
    have been painted with lead paint for years and years; the paint
    has chalked off and gotten into the ground around the house in
    rather high concentrations, allegedly high enough to be dangerous.
    Is it *really* a big enough problem to be as worried as some people
    are about it?  I've got my doubts, but my opinion doesn't mean much,
    and lead *is* bad for you, for sure.  
    
    No, lead does not give off fumes (unless you're melting a lot of
    it, but that's another issue); the paint problem is purely one of
    ingestion, either from paint chips, or breathing dust from chalking
    lead paint, or eating vegetables grown in soil with a high lead
    content.
    
    Too bad -- white lead makes GREAT paint!

    Lead paint ingestion is a very serious problem. It causes mental
    retardation and a variety of other illnesses some of which are 
    irreversible. I bought a house which was peeling badly on the outside
    and my almost two year old ate a small chip, he showed an elevated
    lead level at his next checkup and the doctor had to notify the
    state of Mass. I then was given 90 days to de-lead the house.
    This is an expensive procedure. The requirements as of 4 years ago
    were the following:
    
    1) All loose paint has to be removed and the remaining paint covered.
    2) All lead paint on an outside corner (anything that could be bitten)
       has to be dry stripped (no sanding or chemicals) to bare wood
       to a height of 4 feet for a distance of 4 inches from the corner.
    
    It's this last one that's the doozy, it includes all window frames,
    railings, doors, door frames, railings, balusters, etc. inside and
    out. Just the outside (no lead inside thank goodness) cost 1500
    four years ago.
    
    I think that Mass. law now says that no house may be sold that
    hasn't been de-leaded. I'm pretty sure that your mortgage holder
    will have something to say about this, too.
    
    Alan

    
>    I think that Mass. law now says that no house may be sold that
>    hasn't been de-leaded. I'm pretty sure that your mortgage holder
>    will have something to say about this, too.
    
It's not quite that absolute, but there is a form that must be signed 
that has to do with lead and the presence of children under a certain 
age.  The mortgage companies only care that the forms are filled out. 
They don't care if there is lead paint on the property or not.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    .4
    	To add some more information. Lead paint in the house where
    children under 6 lives is against the law. Owner is responsible
    to remove the lead-paint. Here's some information from the package
    i recieved from my RE agent. I even had to sign that i have read
    the document. I would suggest to read the info. which is published
    by department of public health.
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    WHAT LIABILITY IS INCURRED FOR FAILURE TO ABATE RESIDENTIAL LEAD
    HAZARDS?
    
    	The principal liability incurred by failure to abate residential
    lead hazards is that children living in the residence are at risk
    of lead poisoning. Even if child's blood lead level does not reach
    threshold set by the Centers for Disease Control defining lead
    poisoning, there is no "safe" blood level. Developmental delays,
    cognitive deficits and emotional and behavioral disturbance resulting
    from lead poisoning can have life-long consequences.
    
    	Failure to abate residential lead violations is designated an
    emergency matter and carries criminal penalties. The owner of any
    residential permises is strictly liable for all damages caused by
    failure to abate lead hazards. An owner who is notified of a dangerous
    level of lead in paint, plaster, soil or other material persent
    upon his permises pursuant to section 194 of M.G.L Chapter 111(the
    lead law) and does not satisfactorily remove or correct the dangerous
    conditions, shall in addition be subject to punitive damages,
    which shall be treble the actual damages found. These provisions
    are not exclusive and supplement any existing statutory or common
    law cause of action.
    	Enforcing agencies and district and superior courts are charged
    to give preference and speedy hearings to Lead Law violations.
    Penalties of up to $500.00 per day for each day of noncompliance
    can be lavied.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We had it done on a house about 9 years ago.  It cost about $1200
    then and what a mess it made out of the house. We had it done 
    because our bank required it be done before approving the 
    mortgage.  Seller refused to pay for it, he prefered to 
    cancel the deal unless we paid.  
    
    As previously noted, all surfaces that could be bitten had to 
    be scraped up to 4 feet high.
    
    And I mean scrap to the wood.  It was not scraped smoothly
    so all the woodwork needed to be replaced when they were
    done.  Sort of ridiculous to have it done in the first place.
    
    As also previously mentioned, all the outside corners of the
    house had to be done and all the porch railings etc.  This
    was a beautiful turn of the century house with all kinds
    of fancy woodwork and railings.  ALL DESTROYED!
    
    We were told that the paint in the window well
    that tends to chip was lead and there was no need for
    someone to eat it because if you open the window, the
    wind will put it into the air and you could very easily
    breath it.
    
    Judie
    
    

    re:0
    
    Why pay someone to do something that you can take care of in relatively
    little time?  Spend $100 for a good heat gun, and get some Zip-Strip
    and start with the doors. Strip them to bare wood. Shouldn't take
    more than 2-3 hours per door and window and will save the expense.
    You'll also learn a great deal about door and window construction
    and you'll get a chance to repoint a few windows that you break.
    8-))
    
    Ken

    Re: .9
    
    Probably because he wants to live to enjoy the new house.  Stripping
    lead paint by heat is NOT one of the recommended methods.  You can
    bake some of the lead deeper into the wood, and who knows what's
    in the fumes you're breathing.  A respirator that only filters dust
    isn't good enough.
    
    Many people do this type of stripping anyway, and live to talk about
    it.  I consider it a personal decision, and personally, I wouldn't
    do it.  I'm sure others will disagree.
    
    There is a safe alternative that can work.  Remove all of the trim
    and take it yourself to a place that will professionally strip the
    paint.  By having it done outside the house, you eliminate the risk
    of fumes or dust inside the house, and save much of the labor charge.
    Depending on how they strip the wood, they may not get all the lead
    out, so ask.
    
       Gary

        re .8 On stripping doors: Depending on how much detail the door
    has, and how many layers of paint are on it, stripping can take
    a really long time. I spent two days each on two doors, and they're
    still not completely dont (i.e. to the point where they're ready
    to take a translucent finish)
    
    I've done a fair bit of heat-gun stripping of lead paint. I found
    it impossible to avoid burning the paint occasionally, and even
    when I heated it just enough for it to bubble, it created a lot
    of fumes. Very pleasant smelling, but made me feel kind of weird.
    
    I have gotted to the point where I can't use stripper any more;
    I'm just too sensitive to it. What I hear is that some people can
    tolerate a lot of exposure without ill effects, but I'm definitely
    not one of those people. I guess it varies widely from person to
    person. 
    
    I guess the basic idea is - avoid exposure if you can; limit it
    if you can't avoid it. 
    

    Thanks everyone for the info.
    		I talked to seller to adjust the price. Looks they don't
    want to reduce the price, so for now i am out of lead-paint inquires..
    
    Robert
    

    I wouln't de-lead the paint inside the house myself, whether using
    heat gun of scraper. Inhaling the fume/dust that contains lead is
    bad for your health and may cause non-irreversible damage. If I
    had to do it myself to save $$, I'll do it OUTSIDE of the house.
    I think that in Mass, during the de-lead processes, NO children are 
    allowed in the premises. I don't know how that apply to DIY's.

I recently bought a house with low levels of lead in the paint.  We are
doing DIY removal.  Some notes on what we found about about laws and
safety:

1)  Our mortgage co. (Bank of Boston via the DCU) did not require
removal - they only required us to sign a form stating that it is
not their fault if we don't.

2)  Mass law does not require the seller to remove lead paint, it is
the buyer's responsibility if the buyer has children under 6.  
Actually, the law changed in May, so it may be children under 12 now.
And the height to which you have to remove has been increased, I
think from 4 feet to 5 feet.

3)  If you scrape, you must keep the room sealed for about 2 days
after scraping to let the dust settle.  If you do it outside, you
must clean up all paint chips. I don't know about dust but I don't
think leaving lead dust all around outside your house is a good idea.

4)  If you heat the paint, it releases lead fumes - very dangerous.
I'm not sure whether heat removal is actively outlawed, but it's
not a very good idea.

We are remioving the lead paint with a chemical stripper - it's a bit
messy, and it takes a day before you can peel off the paper, but it
takes the paint off right to the woodwork with no lead fumes, no lead
dust and no damage to the woodwork.  Not that that helps with our
woodwork, it's in bad shape underneat all that paint.

	Luck,
	Larry

    
     RE: .14  I am also in the process of using  chemical stripper to
    remove lead paint from the wainscoating (sp?) in my kitchen. I am
    using 5F5 and agree on the messy part. Larry, you mention waiting
    a day to "peel off the paper"??  Are you using that stuff they had
    on TOH a while back? If so where did you get it and whats the $$..
    
    Thanks,
    Dave

<3)  If you scrape, you must keep the room sealed for about 2 days
<after scraping to let the dust settle.  If you do it outside, you
<must clean up all paint chips. I don't know about dust but I don't
<think leaving lead dust all around outside your house is a good idea.

The original TOH book reccommends waiting 8hrs/ft of height the room is.
So an 8 ft room would be about 64 hrs.  The book devotes 3 pages discussing
lead removal.  The law might have changed since then(like asbestos).

Brian

    re .15
    
    Sherwin-Williams in Bedford, MA has the chemical stripper that uses
    the paper.  I didn't get the price (I was in the process of putting
    on paint rather than taking it off 8^) ).  S-W has quite a few
    locations so you could call one near you.
    
    Bob
    

Reprinted from the Wakefield Daily Item, July 13, 1988  w/o permission :

New Lead Paint Law on Books

BOSTON -- A new state law requiring that home owners be informed of any actual
or potential lead paint hazards in the home they intend to purchase (if the 
home was built before 1978) is now in effect.

The Massachusetts Department of Public Health has prepared a standard
lead poisoning notification package which provides information about the
responsibilities of the home buyer, seller, and real estate agent under the new
law . The law requires the seller or real estate agent to notify the prospective
buyer before the purchase and sale agreement is signed, however, DPH recommends
the notification procedure be completed as early  as possible in the transaction
preferably before an offer to purchase the property is signed.

Although a lead paint inspection is not required before the property is 
transferred, a prospective buyer is guaranteed ten days to have one performed,
if he or she so chooses. Sellers and real estate agents must also tell
prospective buyers that if any violations are found and a child under
six years will be living in the home, the buyer is required to have any lead
removed after the sale. A list of lead inspectors is included in the
notification material.

The property transfer notification requirement affects all sales for which
the purchase and sale agreement is signed on July 1, 1988 or after. It 
applies only to homes built before 1978. Failure to comply with the new 
provision carries a civil penalty of up to $1,000 and liability for all
damages. The law also applies to all residential property transfers, whether
or not a real estate agent is involved.

Copies of the property transfer notification form will be distributed to all
members of the Massachusetts Association of Realtors. Copies may also be
obtained from the DPH Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention Program by calling
1-(800)-532-9571 or (617) 522-3700; from the State House Book Store
(617) 727-2834; or from the Citizen Information Service of the Secretary of
State's Office, at 1-(800)-392-6090.

The forms are also available at the DPH regional health offices at 
Tewksbury, Rutland, Lakeville and Northampton.

    

My wife & I just bought an eighty year old house that has a
lot of nice woodwork which we are sure is covered with
10 layers of lead... paint.  Anyway I haven't seen the TOH
book but here are the results of our research.

The reason that children eat lead paint is because it tastes sweet.
Simple huh?

If you do decide to DIY and you use a heat gun (or any method) without proper
respiratory protection, here are the symptoms of lead poisoning.
I believe that since lead is a heavy metal, it takes a long time
to leave your body.  Luckily you are not growing like a child is so
the damage is probably less.  Stop whatever you are doing if you
get any of these symptoms!  If you start to get head aches which don't
respond to aspirin, or stomach symptoms (don't remember if it is
cramps, nausea, or what) or if you start acting cranky and in
a bad mood (by the way you will not notice this, you have to tell
your partner to watch for this.)

Everybody that we talked to seems to have a different story.  The state of Mass.
is of course no use for info on this stuff.  They are great at
making the laws and causing you to sign all sorts of paper
when you buy, but try to get some assistance out of them...forget it!
Of course the Dukakis administration just cut funding earmarked to
assist low-income & dopes like me to comply with these laws.

Anyway if you call the DPH on this subject
and ask them what is required to DIY they
tell you to rent a 'positive pressure' air filter.  "Any rental
place will have one available" they tell you.  Sure.  But we couldn't
find one.  I guess things like this do exist, but you have to buy them
and they cost $400.

We finally got in touch with company which provides respiratory
protection devices to industry.  Luckily a person there took mercy on
my wife and recommended a less expensive solution.  Buy an AO (american
optical) double filter mask and R57A filters.  Anyway the filters
cover stuff under 0.5 microns, and are for inorganics like radionucleids.
Since their disclosure sheets don't mention lead vapour, I don't know
if they really do any good at all.  We did notice that if we didn't
wear the mask, that a headache would soon come on.

We still did not feel 100% protected, so we always left all the windows
open, and put a fan to pull the fumes away within 2 feet of the
work area.  Whenever we could we would pull molding off and worked outside.
We were also lucky because we had not moved in yet.  After doing one
room, we decided it was too much trouble, and we will probably
have any more woodwork done by dipping.

Take what ever I tell you here with a grain of salt, because nobody seems to
really know, and good luck!  I just read 1214.* and 1948.* and
now I'm wondering if I made a mistake!


-dave

    
    RE .19
    
    How are you stripping the wood?
    
    I've used a heat gun with no mask, and it doesn't create dust,
    just big chips that can be swept up.  Also, I have read that
    a heat gun will not put lead fumes into the air, because it does
    not heat the paint to the vapor point of lead.  Solvents,
    on the other hand, can carry the lead disolved in them into the
    air as they evaporate.
    
    -tm
     

For about $20, I bought a double filter mask at Spags that says that it
is good for Asbestos and Radon daughters.  I think maybe it mentions
lead paint fumes, too.  I've seen it elsewhere for a lot more.
Check the hardware section opposite the reels of chain.

	Larry

RE: Spags filter

All I remember was that you want to get the filters that
are for inorganics and rated for particles under 0.5 microns.
Unfortunately none of the rating sheets seem to mention
lead.  (But I didn't go though the list of filters with a
magnifiying glass.)

-dave

><3)  If you scrape, you must keep the room sealed for about 2 days
><after scraping to let the dust settle.  If you do it outside, you
><must clean up all paint chips. I don't know about dust but I don't
><think leaving lead dust all around outside your house is a good idea.

	Paint chips on the ground, outdoors...

	I have this problem even though I am using plastic dropcloths.
I am thinking of using a shop-vac - would this then contaminate the shop-vac,
and/or spew lead-paint dust into the air?   Or do I have to pick up the
&%*^(_*&^  chips with tweezers?? :-)   I find it nearly impossible to sweep
the chips up off of asphalt.

	I am chemically stripping my ground floor porch fence and columns.
In the last 2 days I've read every note in this file about leap paint stripping.
Last week I was enthusiastically scraping the fence posts for a bit after I'd
gotten the main layer of softened paint off, it takes about 3-4 applications 
and scrappings of stripper to get down to bare wood.  Raising a lot of dust
in the process which of course clung to my forearms.   THIS WEEK I am scraping
only the goo that comes off right away, and putting more stripper on.

	Have I done myself in?  I don't think I have any symptoms - I guess
I should get a blood test....   Do I need to wear a mask even if using 
chemical stripper and being real careful not to raise dusk?  

	Josh Belkin

At last I'm both at home and thinking about paint stripping...

The stuff we used is called "Peel Away", which we bought mail order
through a catalog called Renovator's Supply.  It's made by Dumond
Chemicals, Inc of New York City.  It's pretty cheap compared with
paying someone to do it for you - $23 for a gallon of the stuff, 
enough to do a couple of large windows.  It's quite easy compared
to sanding/scraping.  You spread it onto the painted board and then 
stick a special piece of paper over it and wait 24 to 48 hours.  Then
carefully peel off the paper.  The stuff liquifies the paint and 
absorbs it enough so that it sticks to the paper instead of to the
wood.  You have to use plastic to protect stuff around the paint you 
are removing, because some of the paint can ooze out from under the 
paper if it liquifies faster than it can be absorbed.

They say that there's no toxic fumes, although you mustn't touch it.
After you've peeled off the paint, you clean up with water and 
vinegar (to neutralize the alkaline chemicals left on the wall).  
The surface doesn't have to be flat - it supposedly works on intricated 
carved surfaces, although we haven't tried it.  It's non-flammable.
It takes off a lot of layers at a time - they cite up to 30 layers 
being taken off in one step.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS - I'll provide ordering info if anyone wants it.  The usual disclaimer,
I'm not associated with them and make no guarantees, it just worked for us.

    
    
    Peel Away is AMAZING !  I love the stuff.  My wife bought
    a bucket (1 gallon) at the Sherwin Williams store in 
    Worcester for $19.99 and I used it this past weekend. The
    baseboards in my house were installed BEFORE the hardwood
    floor making it very difficult for removal to dip them (
    I removed the window and door casings and I'll have them
    dipped or prof. stripped).   
    
    In the other two rooms I completed, it took approx. 40 hrs.
    of work EACH.  One room was done with a combination of
    ZIP-STRIP, 5f5 and elbow grease and the other was done with
    a heat gun (both with plenty of fans, sanding work to patch
    the wood gouges, and face masks).  The 5f5 generally took
    4 coats to completely remove the 3-4 layers of paint.  
    
    The PEEL AWAY room took about 10 hrs. total - but 8 of them
    I was sitting at a pool reading a good book and enjoying the
    sunshine !  (1.5 hours to put the stuff on, 8 hrs. to let 
    the stuff work, and 1/2 hr to scrape).
    
    Hints:
    1. Buy yourself a good pair of Neoprene gloves to complete
    the work (with all the CAUSTIC cautions written on the bucket,
    it sounds like nasty stuff) - but, NO NASTY FUMES.
    
    2. Caution!  It discolors some hardwoods!  This caution is 
    listed on the instructions and it says to use it in a trial
    (hidden) piece of wood first.  I did this and my baseboard
    did not discolor.  However, a small bit of liquified paint
    did run underneath the polyprop. drop cloth and discolored
    my hardwood floor!  (not too bad, it's in the corner and 
    I think I can sand it away)  Which leads to...
    
    3. Have your plastic drop "cloth" well secured and be prepared
    for a small mess.  (I have essentially gutted this room anyway
    so I had no problems)
    
    For those who are curious:
    It has the consistency of joint compound.  It is applied about
    1/8 to 1/4 inch thick and then covered with the paper as described
    in -.1.   It can supposedly "melt" up to 20 layers of paint, but
    since I only had four layers, it took much less than the recommended
    24-48 hrs. to work.  
    
    As always, I'll include lots of disclaimers - Read and follow the
    directions and don't blame me if it doesn't work for you or 
    causes problems. BUT, it was well worth my money and I love the
    result (fine sanding only on the baseboard needed). 
                                                       
    Regards,
    db

    
    I'm going to stray from the topic, just to explain something
    that was talked about in .25 ...
    
    >> The baseboards in my house were installed BEFORE the 
    >> hardwood floor making it very difficult for removal to 
    >> dip them.
    
    This is the case and my house, too.  Recently, I found out that
    the baseboards were installed ontop of the subfloor in old houses,
    to serve as a bottom supporting edge for the plaster. Too bad I
    screwed up one of my plaster walls before I realized that the moulding
    went all the way to the subfloor (8^{.
    

    RE:  PEEL AWAY
    
    Harry's Hardware in Jamaica Plain recently started selling "Peel
    Away."  It sells for $23/gallon and is well worth the price.
    
    I used it to strip moldings around windows and floors.  I'd estimate
    that 6 layers of paint were removed with ease.
    
    

    
    
    I have varnish under the 2 or 3 layers of paint.  The heat gun works
    great on the paint, but not on the varnish.
    
    
    -tm

    re: .28
    It may be shellac, not varnish?  See if it dissolves in denatured
    alcohol.  If it does, it's shellac.  (But I don't know if Peel Away
    works on shellac OR varnish!!!)

I'd like to re-open the subject of removing paint from brick with a slight
variation. The brick I would like to remove paint from is an exterior
chimney on my house. I assume the mess that sandblasting makes is less of
a problem when it's done outside. Has anyone out there tried to get a 
painted chimney back to the original brick and what method was successful.

I haven't tried to strip the paint off myself because I'm having trouble
picturing myself on a ladder with a sandblasting gun.  I'm not too good
on a ladder in the first place so the thought of handling the sandblasting
equipment while on a ladder is a bit intimidating. This leads me to my
next question. Does anyone know of a particular contractor or even the
type of contractor that would consider this job. I'm in Framingham, MA.
Thanks.

    
    You can do it yourself with a product called Peel-Away or 
    Peel-Away III (available at Sherwin-Williams).  Peel-Away
    has been discussed elsewhere in the file.  Peel-Away III
    is supposed to be for hardwood and masonry that can be damaged 
    by Peel-Away.  I have been wanting to buy some myself, but
    it costs $100!!! for two gallons.
    
    By the way, if anyone else is interested in this stuff, send me
    mail, and maybe we can renegotiate the price with one of the
    Sherwin William dealers.
    
    --Therese
    

    I'm remodeling my living and dining rooms.  Part of which will include
    removing all the old cheap painted woodwork and replacing it.  This
    is going to leave me with only the windows that have to be stripped
    (mullions?).  Anyone have any tips on the best way to do this
    is so that I can later stain them?  I've gathered that I should use a
    heat gun.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    re .13
    
    Heatguns are not the best way to go ... without a doubt the heat
    will cause your glass to crack due to thermal expansion. You've
    got a couple of options though.
    
    1) Chemical stripping and scrapping - I would highly recommend removing
       your sashes (I assume you have double hung windows). Take the
       sashes  out, place them on a flat work surface, strip, scrape,
       sand, refinish, and replace. This will give you a good opportunity
       to either replace your sash cords, or reinstall using aluminum
       or vinyl channels for a weather tight seal and easy of opening/
       closing. Also, the mess associated with stripping is much easier
       to accept if you're working on the sash outside on saw horses
       or in the cellar on a workbench. If the glazing is poor, you
       might even want to remove the glass panes, strip and refinish,
       and then reglaze before reinstalling. If you do remove the panes,
       the heat gun would then be a possiblity.

    
   2)  If your sashes are in terrible condition (rotting, major paint
       build-up, poor glazing, etc.) you might just want to replace
       the sashes themselves. As long as the window framing itself is
       in decent shape, replacement wood sashes are fairly inexpensive
       (approx $50 for an 6/1 set for a 4'5" by 30" rough opening BROSCO).
       Just finish prior to reinstallation using either sash cord or
       channels. This is great if you feel that the amount of work necessary
       to strip and refinish just can't be justified by the poor condition
       of your sashes. 

    
   I've done both ... 
    
    
    -Bob
    
    

This information is most likely already in the conference someplace,
perhaps in one of the following (found by looking in 1111.94, the index
entry for WINDOWS): 

   206   VERDI::LEWIS        19-JUN-1986     2  Glazing
   399     JON::CALABRIA     18-SEP-1986     7  My windows are falling out !
  1482    YODA::SALEM         2-SEP-1987    11  glass replacement
  2581  CYGNUS::VHAMBURGER   25-AUG-1988     1  Putty for old windows - a better way?

    If you've got a lot of windows to do (more than one!) I'd suggest
    taking the sashes out and taking them to a commercial stripper.
    If you do want to do it yourself, I'd second the chemical stripping
    route, not a heat gun; I agree that the heat gun would almost
    certainly crack the glass.
    A friend of mine is a great believer in lye for stripping paint,
    so you might consider getting a vat of some kind that you could
    dunk the sashes in, and doing your own dipping.  You'd want to do
    this outside, someplace where you don't care about the mess, and
    have a hose handy to rinse the sashes (and you) off with.  
    Dipping might remove the putty as well as the paint (I'm not sure).

    I've done a couple of old windows that were painted that "institutional
    yellow" color that you see in public restrooms, etc.  My idea was
    to stain them or clear poly them.  I used chemical strippers, of
    which F5F worked the best.  I brushed it on and _lightly_ used a
    toothbrush sized wire brush to get in the nooks and crannys.  It
    worked pretty good, but the paint was so old and so embedded into
    the wood that it was impossible to get it all off, and I ended up
    repainting them an off-white.  It was a time-consuming job, that
    I will say.  (I did try a heat gun and BINGO!, cracked a window).

Re:  .13 - .15

	Speaking from experience, I recommend that you avoid using a heat gun
	on window mullions.  Without the proper technique and tools, you are
	certain to crack the glass.  On one of the This Old House shows they
	either taped or shielded the panes before attacking with a heat gun.
	Claimed to be successful.  Of course, the tv program didn't show the
	scenes where the panes cracked.

	I have taken sashes out of their frames, applied paint remover outside,
	and gotten the old (ancient) paint off with only a few applications.
	No problem.  The only problem arises when it's time to sand down the
	mullions.  Be careful not to touch the glass with the sandpaper or
	else you'll have scratch marks.  

	As for dipping the sashes in a commercial tank, don't.  The chemicals
	are so strong that they remove all the glazing compound.  

		Marlene

    Does anyone remember what paint remover "This Old House" used on
    the Weatherbee farm?  They said it was new.  It came in a bucket
    and looked like joint compound.  They used it on a fireplace and
    it was supposed to take off up to 16(?) layers of paint.  They did
    say it was expensive though.
    
    They put it on then put some type of tape over it and let it sit
    for ? hours.  When it was done setting they came back and peeled
    the tape and the paint right off. 
    
    I'd like to try it on our windows.  I need to know the name of it though
    so I can find out how much it would cost.   
    
    Kathy

    Sherwin-Williams (of which there are many locations in the greater
    Boston area) carries the paint remover they used on TOH.  I didn't
    get the price since my immediate interest was putting paint on. 8-)
    
    Bob (who has put on 22 gallons of interior and exterior paint this
         summer)

    
    RE: .20 
    
>    Sherwin-Williams (of which there are many locations in the greater
>    Boston area) carries the paint remover they used on TOH.  I didn't
>    get the price since my immediate interest was putting paint on. 8-)

    Peel Away I costs $10 per gallon or $40 for 5 gallons.
    
    Peel Away III costs $50 for 2 gallons.  It is designed for hardwood
    that will be stained/darkened by Peel Away I.  Also for masonry
    and other things that could be damaged by Peel Away I.  Note that
    Peel Away I can be used on hardwoods that will be repainted.
    

    Peel Away was recommended somewhere else in this file, and we have
    been trying to get a gallon of it for weeks!  Every hardware store
    I call knows what I am talking about immediately, and says they don't 
    have it - to call Sherwin-Williams.  The local Sherwin-Williams is
    out of it but has - get this - a *waiting list* of people who want
    it.  They said there "should be" enough coming in that we can get
    some next delivery!  It must be powerful - I wonder how safe it
    is?  Does anyone know what the active ingredient is?
    
    re .16: Lye is EXTREMELY dangerous stuff.  There is no doubt it
    can remove paint, but it also removes skin in a jiffy and can
    easily disfigure or blind you if it spatters on you.  It will kill 
    any grass it's spilled on for a good long time. Harware store
    pamphlets on removing paint recommend not using it at all.  
    
    Mark

    Mark,
    
    I've been using the stuff for the past week (bought @ S.W.
    in Worcester last month) and wrote some of the other notes
    on it.  I think Peel Away is Great!  ...but, each bucket 
    comes with the U.S. Department of Labor's Material Safety 
    Data Sheet.  It lists:
    
    Section II - Hazardous Ingredients/Identity Information
    Calcium Hydroxide	21%
    Magnesium Hydroxide 16%
    Sodium Hydroxide	 9%
    
    Section V  - Reactivity Data
    Incompability (Materials to Avoid)
    Aluminum
    
    Section VI - Health Hazard Data
    Helath Hazards (Acute and Chronic)
    Toxic orally - irritant to skin
    
    The other sections essentially list first aid procedures,
    precautions (neoprene gloves and goggles) and precautions
    (treat w/ care).  I've gotten some on me and it does burn
    after about 10 minutes (didn't know it was there until it
    hurt), but it's no worse than some pool chemicals I've 
    used (Soduim Hydroxide 30%) and it was fine after I washed
    my arm.  I learned to use long sleeve shirts.  Be careful
    w/the stuff and you should be OK.  BTW, the info above is
    for Peel Away 1.
    
    If you need more info, the sheet lists the following:
    DUMOND CHEMICALS INC.
    1501 Broadway
    New York, NY 
    Emergency Telephone or for more info:   212-840-2666
                                          
    Regards,
    Dave

    
    Besides my spelling errors in -.1, I'll have to clarify 
    that "Health Hazards (Acute and Chronic)" and "Incompatibility"
    are the subheadings for the sections.  
    
    db

    It seems to me that I read an article about this in the Boston Globe's
    Home & Garden section last Sunday-9/18/88. I think we've already
    thrown out the paper though. Maybe you can scout around for a copy.
    (I assume that you're in the Boston area- If you are, you may be
    able to get one at a local library.)
    

    I'm moving into a house that is covered with cedar log slabs (about
    8" wide x 2" thick - it looks like a log cabin).  The problem is that
    some clown in the past painted these slabs with an off red barn
    paint.  I've been wondering about the practicality of stripping
    it and putting on a sealer that will protect the wood, but will
    allow it to age and color naturally.  Chemical stripping doesn't
    look too good because of the porosity and cracks in the logs, not
    to mention the mess and expense.  I have been thinking about trying
    walnut shell blasting.  The paint doesn't seem to be adhering all
    that well, so it should come off ok.  Any suggestions for technique
    and sealer?                                            

    I use a nutcracker, myself.
    
    pbm
    

    Using sandblaster HW, you can use sand, glass beads, or crushed
    walnut shells to clean, strip, etc.  The shells are far less abrasive
    then the other two and would tear out less of the softer wood in
    the slabs.

	A good friend of mine, when the time came to repaint the trim on 
	his house, rented one of those power washers to remove the old 
	paint. He said it did a super job, but you had to keep the spray
	moving or it would start removing the wood underneath. I don't 
	remember what the rental cost was, maybe twenty bucks a day (plus
	deposit).

	I looked around using DIR/TITLE=PAINT notes and so far I
	haven't found what I need.  Yes, I was a bit careless and
	spilled some paint on a short shag carpet. In fact it is
	long narrow trail of. I need some info as to how to remove
	that paint (latex).

    There is a product you can buy at hardware (or maybe paint) stores
    that removes latex paint.  I have a can of a brand called "Oops!"
    (love that name).  It works well.  Read the directions carefully -
    they specifically state that you should not pour the product directly
    on carpet else it will destroy the latex backing.
    
    				Steve

    I need to remove the latex paint from my bathroom plaster walls to prepare
    them for tiling.  I've looked through all the paint notes and didn't
    find anything on getting paint off of plaster walls.  I tried using
    a razor blade, without much luck.  I was wondering if the heat
    gun/torch technique would work? 
    
    Any suggestions appreciated.
    
    --- Dave

    	Has anyone ever successuflly removed paint off of concrete?
    
    I have a painted walkway (airyway if your from Brooklyn),while removing
    the paint off the iron railing with Zip Strip I tried to use the
    same paint stripper for the concrete.  It just seemed to smear the
    paint more into the concrete. Any advice from all you experienced
    Bob Villa's.

    Best method is probably sandblasting, however this does require
    lots of preparation to protect the siding/windows of the house.
    You can probably rent a hi-volume siphon type sandblaster and
    air compressor, can probably get the job done in one day.  Or
    you can call in a sandblasting contractor.

    
          < NOT LEGAL IN MY AREA>
    
    Thanks for the input but sandblasting is illegal in my area due
    to high population density.
    

	I did my chimney which had 7 (count them) 7 coats of paint on it. 
	I wanted to restore the red brick look not only for asthetics but due
	to mortar rot. What I did was rent a tow behind compressor and sand 
	blasting hopper for $130.00 and sand blasted it off. A sandblasting 
	company wanted $700.00 to do it. It came out real nice and I did not
	have to re-point it at all. I would venture to say that this is the
	only real effective way of removing the paint. It made a mess and was 
	a good amount of work but it was surely worth it.

	Have fun... 

ps. do it now (if this is the route you take) before it gets real hot because
     you have to wear full protection clothing. I did it in July and lost 
     15 pounds in the process!

					Roger

You may want to check out note 791 - removing paint from brick - it might have 
some helpful ideas.  And there are a couple of sandblasting notes listed in 
1111.71 also, if you decide to go that route in defiance of the authorities.

> I did it in July and lost 15 pounds in the process!

Hmmmm.  Perhaps I should wait 'til July and then do some sandblasting?  :^)

Paul

    Well, the paint peels (blisters actually) off my concrete landing
    each rainy season.  Standing water does it.  (It's painted because
    the concrete has an orange-red color somehow intrinsically in it.)
    

    Karen, why not try looking into renting a hi-pressure water washer.
    That might not be illegal in your neighborhood.
    
    Jim

    My brother sandblasted his house and the neighbors threatened to
    sue him. It seems that lead paint was used on the house and the
    windblown debris, which is *impossible* to contain - despite what
    professionals say, floated into adjacent gardens and poisoned them.
    They plant flowers instead of vegetables now.
    
    I couldn't help wondering, though, about the quality of the air/dust
    that they breathed while the project was going on... and scraping, etc.
    later. 

    Re:. 6
    
    Cause in my case, I'm trying to keep the paint on, not take it off.
    

Re: "Has anyone ever successuflly removed paint off of concrete?"

I have been very successful taking paint off cement and wrought iron with a
thing that goes in my drill.  It's a metal wheel with many wires (maybe the
same thickness as coathanger wire).  As they spin around and strike the cement,
they chip off the old paint.

I think these are available at Spag's (what isn't?).  Wish I could remember
what they're called.

Pete

    I use them on my grinder.
    
    Dondi

    >     I use them on my grinder.
    
    No you don't. 8-) I think -.2 is talking about one of those paint 
    stripper devices with maybe 30 coathanger size wires that strike
    the object of removal and beat the paint off of it. A wire wheel
    has hundreds of much finer wires. 
    
    I tried one once - it seemed pretty slow. 

    It did occur to me that my wires were not coathanger sized which
    seems pretty hefty to me.  Wouldn't they be a bit rough on brick?
    
    Dondi

    Peel Away 1...We have recently started stripping the woodwork in
    our old house using peel away I.  It works quite well.  You leave
    it on 24-48 hours  and peel away the paper, that removes most, we
    have found that you have to then strape away the residue, neutralize
    with vinegar and then wash it down with water.  Takes us now about
    two hours to due the trim around a window.  At least its not back
    breaking though.  Sherwin Williams is the only distributor...I called
    Peel Away (Dumond Chem in NY) for local dealers hoping to do better
    on price...the current rate is 21.99/gallon and this lets us do
    the trim around two windows (trim is 6" wide and ornate) so it is
    costly but we like that there are no fumes and figure this is probably
    the best way around for removing lead paint...which we assume we
    have.  Anyway...to those of you who use it...Good luck but don't
    go past 48 hours as it will begin to attack the wood...I really
    think 36 hours is a good max...depending on how many coats your
    have...we had about 4-5.  Ken

    I also just started using Peel Away 1 on interior woodwork.  When
    I picked up a gallon at the Sherwin Williams in Framingham, the
    price was $26.99.  Where can you pay only $21.99 a gallon?

    Sherwin Williams in Worcester.  Off Stafford west of Webster Sq.
    Pretty easy to get to.  Might be worth the drive for multiple gallons.
    
    TO get there:    I-290 to Auburn St. exit.(THis exit is available
    when you are heading south on 290 from Worc toward Auburn)  Follow
    Auburn St to end, hang a right onto Oxford.  Follow to where road
    splits and stay to left.  Sherwin is maybe a mile up the street
    on the left.  I'd call to make sure they have it in stock...Last
    time I went they had just run out....Good Luck Ken

    I have a similar problem.
    
    I recently installed Shiplap Barn Board and applied a Walnut stain
    to it. Unfortunately it is much darker then the sample.  I would
    like to tone it down., not remove all the stain, just tone it down
    some.
    
    Cal.
    

    
    re .3
    
    I have no idea how to tone down a stain without stripping it, and
    reapplying it.
    
    Most of the samples you see, the stain is applied with a spray gun.
    It's put on more evenly and much lighter that way. The truest stains
    I've delt with are the Minwax stains. Some of the other's I've tried
    I've had some very bad results with. I've finished or refinished
    about 15 pieces of furniture in the past 3 years.
    
    Mike

My wife just called me in hysterics.  It seems MY (use to be ours?)
kids got into my wife's acrylic paints.  It sounds like they got paint
all over the wall-to-wall carpeting in two bedrooms and the hallway.

Anyone have any ideas for removing acrylic paints from carpet?

-JFK- 
(anyone what to put up two kids and a scared husband for the night?)

    
    Try calling a local carpet store, they should be able to give
    you some suggestions !
    
    good luck
    
    Randy
    

    RE: .2
    
    You may want to try lacquer thinner, but test it on a small, unnoticeable 
    area first (Even better would be a carpet sample).  You may also want to
    call the store where the carpet was purchased to see what the manufacturer
    recommends.
    
    Good Luck!
    
    Jim
    

    In a recent issue of the Old House Journal, I noticed an ad for a
    flat-iron type heat device, which they (OHJ) recommends for stripping
    the exterior of houses.  Anyone have any experince with this kind of
    device?  I, too, am thinking of stripping my house this spring, and, so
    for, find the grinder method mentioned in a previous reply to be the
    most promising.  Althought I've never done a house, I have stripped all
    of the paint off of the hull of a 50' sailboat, and while it was far
    from easy, it did seem to work reasonably well - only thing was, I had
    to go over it with a belt sander afterward to get out all of the marks
    from the disk.

I own the OHJ heat plate, and have used it several times.  It's excellent for 
softening built-up paint on flat surfaces, especially clapboards, soffits, etc.
You then scrape the softened paint away with a putty knife.  Sometimes you can
get things going just right, keeping the plate and knife moving at a speed that
softens the paint just enough without scorching it, and you can do a long strip
in a single pass.

It doesn't do furniture-quality work.  It gets most but not all of the paint
off of flat surfaces; you tend to leave more paint in corners, end grain, etc.;
sometimes you scorch the wood; sometimes you gouge the wood with your knife.
So if you're going to repaint after stripping, it's fine; if you're going to
stain after stripping, you'll need to be extra careful, and plan to make 
additional passes with a heat gun, mechanical method, and/or chemical stripper.

The heat plate has a significant advantage over a heat gun:  the gun forces hot
air into cracks and crevices, potentially setting fire to building materials,
wasp's nests, etc.  People have been known to _burn_their_houses_down_ in this
extremely embarrassing manner!  Soffits and similar boxed construction details
are especially vulnerable to this hazard.  The plate could theoretically start
a fire in a similar manner, but the danger is much less.

I've used a heat plate, heat gun, chemical strippers, power sander,
roto-stripper (wire flails attached to power drill), hand scraper, and I can't
remember what else to remove paint from houses and furniture.  The heat plate
definitely has its uses.

    How did you know enough to remove the strip when it "turns brown"?  I
    bought some of this yesterday,  tried it out last night, and a couple
    of spots were "brown" this morning (12 hours later).  The instructions
    say to leave it on 24-48 hrs, but I had to remove some this morning to
    avoid ruining the woodwork.  Nowhere does it say to wait until the
    paper turns brown, it just says to scrape it with a tool to ensure it
    bonds to the paper for removal.  In all, it's really a great product,
    and although a little costly it does save a lot of back/shoulder
    strain, there are no fumes, and clean up is easy.  I'm using it on
    windows, which cannot be scraped without gouging.  
    One more thing - what harm can it do if left on too long?  I plan to
    sand and paint anyway, so I can't see what could go wrong.  Can anyone
    enlighten me? 
    
    

a leather question:

i have a leather seat that is quite worn. the surface appears
cracked and crinkled, and has lost its coloring (blue) in the cracks.

how can this be repaired? how can the color be matched? is this
a diy project, or should it be done professionally? can it be repaired
or need it be redone.

thanks...

dl

    You might also want to post this in the antique_collectible conference.
    
    Hit kepad 7 top add MOMAX1::ANTIQUE_COLLECTIBLE to your notebook.
    

    Is anybody familiar with a product that is applied over lead paint to
    seal it?  A friend is in the process of having lead paint removed from
    his home, and the inspector off-handedly mentioned a rubberized
    substance which is applied over the contaminated area, allowed to dry,
    then re-painted.  The only drawback seems to be that the surface is a
    little rough.  Seems like we could suffer a little roughness to save
    thousands of dollars???  Anybody familiar with this?  FYI, this is in
    Massachusetts.
    
    Sarah
    

    
    I've got a new twist to re-open this lead paint discussion.  I've got 
    wide pine flooring in my 140 year old house.  As was common in the day 
    some of this flooring was painted.  I'd like to refinish the floors,
    however, my concern is that the paint used most likely contains some lead.
    Since we're talking about a large area (as opposed to kick-boards and 
    window frames) I wouldn't think chemical strippers would be the most 
    economical way to go for the floors.  Can someone suggest the best way
    to approach this problem.  A solution which minimizes the amount of dust 
    produced is preferred since I have a 2 year old at home.  
    
    Any help would be greatly appreciated.  
    
    /Jeff 
              

Lead dust is perfectly safe... provided that you don't ingest it.  Is it
possible to refinish the floors one room at a time, sealing of the room
being refinished?  You would need to wear a mask (not just a nuisance
dust mask), wash thoroughly after working in the room, and wait a long
time after finishing before letting anyone in.  The lead paint removal
guide says how long to wait to let lead dust settle out of the air --
I seem to recall that with an 8 foot ceiling it came to about 48 hours.

	Luck,
	Larry

    I completed a similar project two months ago and here is what I did.
    (Note:  I have no children but my wife and I probably will at some
    point and I am very concerned that she not be expeosed because lead in
    the mother can be transported to future children).  
    
    First, I sealed every doorway to the areas not being sanded with
    plastic sheeting and wide plastic tape.  I used lots of tape to insure
    a good seal.  I went over the whole floor and set the nails (old cut
    nails so they wouldn't end up with shiny heads.  I went up into the
    attic and stole boards for use in replacing a few of the boards which
    had split, broken etc.  It took a bit of fitting but it was worth it
    for they were stable and look like they were always there. I bought a double
    cartridge filter mask for 25.oo at spags.  I sent my wife away for the
    weekend and denied her access to the area for about a week.  I bought a
    wet dry vac (note2:  wear your mask with these because even though they
    pick up the dust, lead particles can be thrown in the air by them.)  I
    rented sander and edger and started early.  I had to take off an
    awful lot.  Fortunately I had a sub floor underneath the pine boards.
    In total I did two 15 x 15 rooms and a long l-shaped hallway.  Sanding
    with the big sander took one full day, with the edger another 1/2 day,
    and then I used my drill as a disk sander to get the circular marks out
    where the rental edger was used (needless to say I used very fine
    paper.  (Note3: I bought one of those stick it on disk deals by 3M and
    it worked much better than the old kind that used the paper with the
    holes).  Oh, btw, when I say a whole day sanding I mean 14 hours.
    
    I started with medium thinking I didn't want to gouge the soft pine
    floors.  Forget that.  I was changing paper every 3 minutes.  SO I
    swithed to coarse to remove the paint (even this used alot of paper). 
    Then to medium, then to fine.  To remove the paint I went both cross
    grain and with the grain...it took along time!  All told I must have
    used 15 coarse belts, 15 medium and 15 fine.  WIth the edger I used
    40-50 disks.  (Moral- ask for LOTS of paper, way more than you could
    ever need, they'll take back what you don't use but I went back to the
    rental store 3 times to get more...Yeah, I know...stupid).  I removed 2
    garbage cans (40g) full of dust and a garbage bag full.  It was a messy
    dirty job...I kept my hands away from my face, never took off the mask
    anywhere near the area, took showers, washed my hands and arms before
    eating and was otherwise generally paranoid about this hazard.  
    
    Finally, I oiled the floors with Watco Floor Oil which is just great. 
    They have a nice satin finish, I clean them with Murphy's Oil soap and
    water and this seems to be working very well.  I do plan to oil them
    again soon.  Oh, wash your clothes separately from the rest of the
    laundry a couple of times before wearing them again.  Good luck. Ken  

    I would urge anyone that is sanding lead paint to make sure
    that none or very little of the dust winds up on the ground
    or on the floor.  If it is on the ground and you garden, you
    are going to eat lead.  If is on the floor and your child 
    puts things from the floor into his her mouth, the child
    will be eating lead.  I read an article last year that
    stated that some large porportion of lead poisoning occurs
    as a result of lead paint removal.  Sorry, I don't remember
    exactly where I read this.

    In the notes about sanding joint compound which generates a _lot_ of
    dust, there was a recommendation to also hang WET sheets over the
    doorways.  The dust sticks to the wet sheets and does not escape.  It
    seems that there is always one place that did not get taped just right.

    For shop vac's someone recommended using old panty hose as a filter
    because it helps trap a lot of the dust and costs less than filters. 
    They can also be washed out and reused.
    
    These same ideas could be used in this task to help reduce dust in the
    rest of the house.

    
    Thanks for the suggestions so far.  One other option that will minimize 
    the amount of stripping work I will need to do (and help reduce my 
    worry about lead poisoning) while maximizing my cost is to replace the 
    floor with new wide-pine boards.  The total area of painted 
    floors is about 400 square feet.  Of which 50 square feet will  
    need to be replaced anyway due to cracks and dents.  The floor boards 
    aren't incredibly "wide" (about 1' on average), so I don't think I'd 
    loose too much historic value by replacing them.  Anyone have any
    thoughts (pros and cons) on this approach.  
    
    Thanks again,
    
    /Jeff

In the latest issue of The Old House Journal, somebody gave a recipe for
cheap paint remover, essentially lye with a binder added.  With a floor,
you are not concerned with the stuff sticking to the surface so you
can get by with a simpler formula.

    
    Jeff, I'd go for new wide-pine boards.
    Lead removal is a nightmare. If for any reason, your house
    is decided to be the cause of lead poisoning in a child, the
    state WILL get involved and you may end up going broke
    having the complete residence de-leaded, which will really
    maximize your cost.
    
    							Good luck
    
    								Hank

The stuff is available by mail from Dumond Chemical for about $25/gallon on the
date I'm writing this.

---Pete

    The contractor  who  fixed  our  porch  tried  it  and had several
    problems.  First, the paper shrunk, so there were gaps between the
    two  pieces  that  didn't get treated. Secondly, it worked only in
    the very sunny spots. Third, it left the wood a very uneven color,
    so  we  had  to  use  a darker stain than we had planned to. After
    doing  a small portion of the porch with this, he gave up and went
    in with a sander.

--David

>	...it left the wood a very uneven color...

The instructions say very clearly that it may darken wood -- which makes sense,
since the active ingredient is sodium hydroxide -- and that it should be tested
first in a small area.  I'd say your contractor may have goofed.

Our order arrived from Dumond today.  You can order from them by mail in quanti-
ty at prices much better than what the stores are apparently charging.

---Pete

                     <<< Note 1915.7 by SHARE::CARDINAL >>>
                             -< Peel Away update >-
    > Anyway...to those of you who use it...Good luck but don't
    > go past 48 hours as it will begin to attack the wood.

    When I left it on a window sash for 76 hours, the wood was considerably
    softened. So in scraping off the paste, I also scrapped off wood
    fibers. What happens to the wood, is some of the material that binds
    fibers together dissolved?

    When I tried using the paste again for just 2 hours, the wood was still
    softened though to a lesser degree.

    Thanks,
    -Weimin

    I guess Peel Away has found general acceptance; I noticed it being
    used on the window frames of the Wakefield Savings Bank to strip
    several layers of paint.
    
    pbm
    

    Not sure where to put this but I'll try here.  We have oak wood-mode
    cabinets that were in our house when we bought it.  We don't like them
    for two reasons:  one, we don't like the doors, and two, they are
    stained a walnut-type color which we feel is too dark.  We are
    considering replacing the doors with a different style (will stay
    with Wood-mode to minimize difficulties) and ordering them unfinished
    will let us keep them the light color that we want.  Our problem is
    the face/ends of the existing cabinets.  We would like to strip/sand
    them down, then stain (maybe just oil?) the whole thing.  Has anyone
    ever done this?  Also, anyone know where we might get a break on
    wood-mode cabinet doors?
    
    Any help would be appreciated.
    
    
    Oh, also we plan to tile our counters.  I have read that we should
    be able to tile right over our laminate - anyone tried this?
    
    If these questions are addressed elsewhere in this file, I apologize,
    please point me to the correct place.
    
    Thanks

    
    I've done what you're doing with the cabinets. It's not easy. In fact
    on kitchen cabinets it may be impossible. There are 2 basic methods.
    For both methods you first have to stip the wood. Then either sand the
    wood down below the stain or bleach the wood (ie make it lighter).
    Bleaching the wood will make the wood lighter, but it will be very 
    tough to match to wood that's never been stained before. Sanding the
    wood is going to be difficult, because the cabinets is probably lamenit.
    So the wood won't be thick enough to sand the stain away. The stain
    probably penetrated the lamenit (? on spelling).
    
    Mike
    

    As already pointed out, making a dark stained wood lighter and then
    matching new wood is not an easy task.  An alternative is to veneer the
    cabinet fronts with new wood that matches the wood of the doors.  That
    way you can finish all the new wood at the same time to match.
    
    Basically you take the door and hardware off the existing cabinets,
    glue veneer to the cabinet face frames, apply stain and finish, hang
    door and hardware.
    
    Sears has been adverstising in my area on the TV that they will do this
    for you.  Home Depot sells the veneer pre-glued and ready to stain for
    this purpose in 2 ft. x 8 ft. sheets.  Last time I check it was about
    $100 a sheet.  They also sell a variety of doors in both stain and
    paint grade quality.  
    
    This is also discussed in note 3525.  You might check keyword listing
    1111.17, cabinets&countops for more ideas about remodeling cabinets.

    
    
    I'm Looking for someone who may have had experience with a product
    called "QRB Refinish"  Its a paint striping product which was 
    advertised on the Amazing Discoveries program on the cable Learning
    channel. The demonstration showed them stripping paint off of wood
    with very little effort?
    It also comes with a finish soulution which, depending if you "shake or 
    stir the can" you can have a gloss or satin finish ??? Having done a lot of
    refinishing the conventional way, via elbow grease, I am very skeptical
    of the product claims, especially the shake or stir finish selection??
    I like to hear from anyone who has tried this or a similar product.
    
    Steve
    

    
    The stripper has a chemical called Metholine Cloride. Its very strong
    and will take almost anything off with great ease, although its very
    harmfull to the skin and more important your lungs. 
      Most proffesional refinishers use M/C when stripping stubborn painted
    furniture. If you plan to use this, be sure to do it in a ventalated
    area. As far as the finish, It may go on ok but I would have to wonder
    about it's durability, after all isnt durability and looks the most
    important feture in a refinished antique.
    
      Stick with the chemicals you find at any hard ware store, it may take
    longer, but I'm sure the results will be worth it.....
    
    
      Good things take time......
    
    
    Matthew.....
    

Many paint strippers available in hardware stores use Methylene Chloride.

    I agree, but not to this extent. VOLUME====STREANGTH????????
    

    >Its a paint striping product which was advertised on the Amazing
    >Discoveries program on the cable Learning channel.
    
    Just a word on "Amazing Discoveries".  I read somewhere that the
    "program" (actually a 30 minute commercial) is put on by a New York
    company that has been the target of many consumer complaints over the
    years.  They go under several names, and always advertise in the Sunday
    newspaper magazine sections ("Secret marketing test: amazing digital
    watch only $5.95 + $6.00 postage.  Limit 1/customer, but if you order
    before [2 months from now], you may order up to 500.")
    
    I have no personal experience with this company, but have heard and
    read many negative comments.  Previous "Amazing Discoveries" have been
    things like: a set of cheap pad paintbrushes for $40; 2 bottles of
    liquid car wax for $30, etc.  You could probably find an equivalent
    paint stripping product, for much less money, at any local store.
    
    

You might look at note 9, in which I report on a product called "Texture-Off",
which also claims to remove regular latex paint.  I haven't yet tried it.

			Steve

    
    You might want to check out page R9 of todays Herald.
    Lead paint and the removal of are becoming an increasingly
    expensive nightmare, and by law, homeowners can no longer do
    any removal themselves.
    
    							Hank

You'll love Amazing Discoveries if you like junk mail, too.  I had a friend
stay with me a couple weeks, and he ordered something from Amazing Discoveries,
and had them ship it to my address.  I now get almost as much junk mail for
him as for me.

-Mike

    
>    Lead paint and the removal of are becoming an increasingly
>    expensive nightmare, and by law, homeowners can no longer do
>    any removal themselves.
    
>    Hank

    BY Law I cannot remove lead paint myself now in Mass???? Good Grief!!

    I am getting more and more frustrated by the minute with the dimwits in 
this state who think I need to pay money to some contractor when I could do 
something myself for less $$$ and get a better job done in the meantime!

    I know there are those who would sandblast leadpaint (A la the MBTA 
contractor who "lead paint dusted" a neighborhood), or sand it off by hand, 
or remove it some other way that might be hazardous, but to make it illegal 
for me to do it myself???? When are these guys gonna get real, worry about 
the state budget and stop trying to butt into my life! 

    Does anyone have details of this law, when it went into effect, and 
what the exact rules say? Next thing you know in Mass, I could forget to 
return a library book and wind up with 30 days in jail and a $500 fine....

(For those of you not local to Mass politics, THAT crazy law just went into 
effect in the past few days.....no warrent needed, just a statement from 
your local librarian that you have been notified in writing and have not 
come up with the book 30 days later...so, they need a warrent to search me 
for drugs, but not for a missing library book!)

    Just a question from the "far side" of rt 128.....

    	Vic H

    Just had a friend required to de-lead due to lead poisoning of his
    child.  An interesting point - when they come back to "inspect" and
    issue the de-leading certificate, they do not re-test.  Reason??? The
    retest will come back positive, because it is virtually impossible to
    remove the lead that has seeped into the woodwork from the original
    coat of paint.  So, you have it deleaded by a "professional", they ruin
    your wallpaper and panelling with the duct taped they are "required" to
    use to seal off each room, it costs you thousands of dollars, and you
    still have high lead levels in your woodwork.  If you have the option,
    remove the woodwork and replace it.  Remove your windows and replace
    them.  It will probably cost you the same in the long run, and at least
    you are certain that when you attempt to sell your home, there won't be
    a finding of lead paint. (This is Massachusetts)
    One more point - it will be considered "code" if all your woodwork has
    half-round moulding.  Half-round is considered non-chewable.  I guess
    flaking paint is not the state's worry, just chewable surfaces?
    And on and on it goes...
    

    
    Re: last couple..
    
    Believe it or not, it's also illegal to remove/pry off window
    and door casings and throw them out. It's illegal for house
    painters to scrape clapboards in preparation for exterior
    painting, because they aren't licensed de-leaders.
    And it gets worse....sheds or fences must also be deleaded.
    
    The costs? The article estimates the average single family
    homes would run about $8,000 to delead, usually more.
    
    The most discouraging part of the article was where it mentioned
    that most homes built before 1978 do have some degree of lead
    paint in them. 
    
    							Hank

I knew that once a finding of a lead paint hazard had been made, it was
mandatory to use a certified deleader, but is the law really that I 
can't under any circumstances replce my window trim, on the grounds that
there might possibly be lead in the paint?  Good grief!  Another radical
law that most people will ignore.  And I'd sure like to figure out what
harm a board with lead paint on it is going to do in a landfill.  Have
all forms of lead paint been reclassified as a hazardous waste now?

	Larry

    I hate to admit it, but we fell for the DiDi Seven pitch and ordered a
    tube last winter from a catalog at "the remarkably low, low price of 
    only $7.95." In any event, we've tried it several times and were 
    extremely dissatisfied with the results every time. So much for "Amazing 
    Discoveries'" claims. It should be called "Amazing Ripoffs."
    
    Mike

    
    Re: .13
    
    Hi Larry,
    
    	Yes, I believe that all forms of lead paint are now
    classified as hazardous material. As such, removal is now
    done very similiar to asbestos removal. 
    
    	This new law is the Childhood Lead Prevention law,
    effective March 1, 1990. If your house is determined
    to have lead paint (tested by a licensed inspector of course)
    you have 10 days to begin deleading. And of course, the premises
    must be vacated during that time. Now I don't know about you
    but it may well take me a bit longer than ten days to arrange
    the financing, let alone make arrangements to live elsewhere.
    
    							Hank

  This is very interesting. It certainly sounds like this new law is
  going to place an unaffordable burden on homeowners. On the other
  hand, it *is* important that we remove the lead paint hazard from our
  homes. There has to be some sort of solution which won't be so onerous
  as to force people into illegal (or worse, unsafe) actions. Too bad
  our boneheaded legislators didn't bother to look for one.

Interesting to compare lead paint to asbestos.  The last time I looked at
the law, asbestos was NOT a hazardous waste, just a special waste.
Asbestos is not hazardous at all if it is wet, it is only hazardous if 
it dries out and emits fibers.

Now, I can see that removing lead paint from woodwork is a pretty dicey
thing to do -- the dust would be quite dangerous to breathe.  BUT, I
fail to see the hazards in physically removing a painted board!
And I don't see why it would be hazardous to put that board in a dump,
either.  Sure, it would be hazardous if incinerated, but most things are.

The sad part is that everyone who can will circumvent this law, since
the law is so unreasonable.  

	Arghh,
	Larry

    I did NOT follow the directions on mine - that said to remove old
    paint.  Mine was painted in the 50's when the house was built.
    
    Just wire brushed all the loose spots, cleaned off as much dirt and
    dust as I could with a stiff broom, and painted it on.
    
    Smelled lousy for a couple of days, but worked great.  Basement (and
    garage) look cleaner and don't 'feel' as damp!
    
    	-Barry-

    I used the TruValue hardware store brand.  It was cheaper, seemed to be
    the same, and available 4 blocks from my house on Sunday - when you
    will definitely run out with a wall half painted!
    
    It was a concrete type paint - that contained portland cement (all
    warnings applied).  Came in a couple of colors - grey, white, forgot
    the others.  I used the white.
    
    Put it on with a rough roller.  Go both directions to get good coverage
    on the mortar between the concrete blocks.  They say do not paint
    floors, but since I'm studding about 3 to 4 inches out (due to waste
    piping and using ceiling joists above headers), I let it 'puddle' at
    the wall floor seam to get a good seal.
    
    Gave it a good heavy coat to 'fill in' pores in blocks.
    
    	-Barry-
    

In the 17-Oct Wall Street Joural Tax Report column on p. A1, under Briefs:
  Owners or tenants of Massachusetts who pay to remove or cover dangerous lead
  paint or other materials may earn a state tax credit of up to $1,000.

That's the entire "article." Note it's a credit (remove $x from final tax bill),
not a deduction (remove $x from income before figuring taxes).

						Trace

    .38:
    
    Ah, but if you do it yourself, you don't get the credit?
    
    One would think that, while they would very probably not wish to
    encourage DIY removal, they might wish to encourage covering the stuff
    up, whether the owner contracts for it or does it himself.
    
    I feel the cynic in me awakening...
    
    Dick

On the other hand, if you DIY (illegally), you'll save a lot more than
the tax credit.

    .40:
    
    Is it illegal to cover it yourself?
    
    Dick

    
    re: 40
    
    It isn't illegal YET to cover lead paint.
    But then I believe they're going to be tightening the lead paint
    standards even more, so stay tuned....
    
    								Hank

    I have never heard of aplying anything over lead paint to seal it,
    however just to add my 2 cents worth about deleading.  Last year I had
    gotten estimates of gettin gmy single family house deleaded. The
    avarage price of having it done was around 6000-8000.  I had my house
    done for $7000.  What did they do for this price,  
     
     Interior:
                  20 windows @ $60.00 
                  10 door jams(archways etc.) replace with pine boards
                  5 hollow doors.
                  complete covering of base boards using thin pine.
                  boxed in banister post and sanded the banister rail.
                  
    Exterior:     covered outside of window sills with white plastic
                  sheeting.
                   
                  boxed in porch beams and put in new railings
                  put in brand new storm windows on back porch.
                  new steel front door.(stanley) 
    
    	everyting that was done was considered to be a biteable
    service. There were a few areas of the house that still had lead paint
    these areas were considered to be ok because they were not a biteable
    service.  However I decided to cover these as well
    
                   wains coating(sp)and chair rail in kitchen and back
    hallway.  I covered them with nice paneling and molding.   
    
    	I can say that the house looks very good.. and I very happy that I
    had it done, although exspensive I know my children age 2 and one on
    the way are safe..        
              
             2 more things..   If you have it done by a deleading company
    I think the best way to go is a complete removal of the lead paint not
    having sanded up to five feet.  this looks crappy...  
    
    	and 2nd When done by a deleading company You get a $1000. tax
    credit. This of coures is a drop in the bucket for what you pay but it
    helps..  the name of the people I had do this was allstate construction
    in west boylston..  And they don't put out signs in your yard or is it
    on their trucks saying deleading going on here...  hope this was
    helpfull.....    The best advice is don't buy a house with lead
    paint!!!!         Doug       
    

    Could someone summarize the law with regard to lead paint removal in
    Massachusetts?  What is a homeowner allowed and not allowed to do?

    What consitutes a "Lead paint cover"?  Is removing loose paint and
    painting over sufficient?

    rer: .43
    As I understand it, no.  The cover needs to be something substantial,
    like plywood or sheetrock.

    Just had a neighbor tell me last night that there is a NEW lead paint
    law in the works that makes it illegal to have lead paint in your home.
    Period.  Everyone will be required to have their home tested (EVERYONE)
    and those found to have lead paint (with or without children present in
    the household) will be required to remove it.  This is Massachusetts
    (naturally).  Anyone heard of this latest version?  If this is passed,
    I think I'll get into the lead-paint-removal business!
    
    Sarah
    

Some friends of ours are expecting a baby soon, so their landlord is deleading
their apartment (in a 3-family).  He got an estimate from a deleader to do
the apartment and hallway (which is apparently a requirement) for $30K!
This is not a large apartment -- I think it's a two bedroom.  The landlord
got a non-certified guy to remove and replace the woodwork.  It seems to
me that a law that requires you to spend that much money is bound to fail --
people *will* find a way around it.

    Based on the time Good Morning America's consumer reporter spent on the
    lead paint issue a week or so ago, I'd expect this type of legislation
    to be happening on a national level, not just in Mass.

re: 2445.45         Dealing with lead paint/cost estimates             45 of 47
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                      -< New and Improved Lead Paint Law >-
>
>Just had a neighbor tell me last night that there is a NEW lead paint
>law in the works that makes it illegal to have lead paint in your home.
>Period.  Everyone will be required to have their home tested (EVERYONE)
>and those found to have lead paint (with or without children present in

    Am I an expert ? no, but ...
    
    Last september ourt church decided to rent  out the parsonage,
    until it could be sold. What followed became a short course in
    "Lead paint Law" education, as it applies to Fitchburg Mass
    rentals and homeowners.
    
    Briefly, your neighbor is misinformed, to some extent. Like all
    Consumer Protection Laws, as they apply to rentals, age groups,
    various cities and towns, states .. the laws allow a lot of variance.
    It also depends on where the paint is (chewable surfaces is one area,
    such as window sills, door jambs, and the floor) .. The height is
    important, and whether or not it is flaking.
    
    And a new variation of the law took effect this January 15, 1991.
    And the law is continually changing. 
    
    There is no great significance of the law, to the average homeowner,
    who does NOT have any children under the age of (hmm 6 now, i think),
    and has no plans to sell their home to anyone with children under
    that age, unless they (the new owners) agree to accept any liability
    for conformance to the law.
    
    I just refinanced, and the bank only had me sign a form accepting all
    liability for conformance to the law (protecting themselves against
    lawsuit ... you see .. the banks who hold the mortgage are the
    technical owners of the properties they hold). Since my homew was
    built around 1849, I am certain, as does anyone else familiar with
    older homes, that the house does contain lead paint. 
    
    The bottom line is this: No one person really knows what the laws
    really say for any one particular house. Because some of the city and
    state statutes are in variance from each other on several points. If
    the laws become too rigid, then the technical owners can be held
    liable (the banks). 
    
    The end result is that no more children should get lead paint
    poisoning .
    
    -BobE
    

        
    
    

This is just one ;more case of Big Brother trying to protect us from ourselves.
What right have they to tell us that we MUST get our houses checked and use a 
CERTIFIED deleader to do the work?  If we are nervous about it (as many have 
been about radon), then we would get it checked and fixed.  Otherwise, no
problem.

How are they going to check that we have been inspected?  Are they going to
knock on every door and have the police barge in?  Are they going to charge
for the inspection (another tax)?  Who determines the levels of lead that are
acceptable?  How long does the person have to do the work?  What if they can't
afford it?  Does the state take the house from them?

There are too many issues and this is too stupid a law for me to believe that it
would ever pass nationally.  In Massachusetts?  Now that is another thing.  This
is such a stupid state anyway that I would not put it past the legislature to
pass such a law.  Fortunately, (hopefully?), the governor is smarter and more
reasonable than Dukaka and will veto anything this ludicrous.

Ed..

    There is a push going on to have mandatory testing of children under
    age 6(?) for lead levels in their blood at their routine physicals.  I
    believe this is being done in a lot of places already.  Should the test
    come out positive, I think there is legislation already in place that
    will require the parents to remove the source of the lead.
    
    It doesn't look like a way of protecting us from ourselves to me. 
    We're talking about the health and safety of children and future
    generations.  I can see the logic in requiring properly trained people
    to delead a house.  An unwary homeowner can do more damage to his
    family's health by going the simple "I'll sand it myself" route.  I'm
    sure there are implications around proper disposal as well to prevent
    the lead from leaching into the groundwater.  This type of disposal is
    becoming more and more expensive as dump sites get scarcer.  When you
    add up the risks taken on by the removal companies (liablity for the
    job quality and health risks to employees), the cost of disposal, and
    the American free enterprise system, you gotta know this service won't
    come cheap.

And it will be even more expensive when there are VERY FEW certified deleaders.

I am not attacking you.  But, I do not believe that mandatory anything is a good
idea.  I won't take this note down the rathole, but if I still feel this strong
about it after a bit, I may track down the building codes note and start up
over there.  After all, this is just an extension of that.

As an aside, how would you know that the house is the cause of lead problems? 
Will the schools be tested and deleaded?  Will the town halls and other public
buildings be tested and deleaded?  Will certified deleaders be used?  Who
determines a level of lead that is unsafe?  Why is it such a major concern now,
when it wasn't such a problem 100 years ago?  I am not saying to start using
lead paint.  But, I think that Big Brother can be a real nosey-body when he
shouldn't be.  There are other important things to be spending state/local
money on without wasting it here.

Ed..

    The first place they check for lead is in the child's home. 
    Ironically, it is entirely possible (probable, in may cases) that the
    child ingested the lead paint at some other location (babysitter,
    playground swingset, toys, etc), but lead found in the parents' home is
    determined the cause and the costly process begins.  Six months after
    deleading, the child is re-tested and is found to STILL have
    significantly high levels of lead in the bloodstream, and testing is
    REDONE at the home.  Since NO DELEADER will guarantee the home is
    lead-free AFTER deleading (and you have to sign a paper acknowledging
    this), the homeowner will have to REPEAT the process. AD Nauseum.  It
    is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to remove lead that has leached into the wood
    from a lead-based primer. ( From the mouth of a 'certified deleader')  
    Subsequent lead tests will show lead, no matter how many times you scrape 
    and re-paint.  It is definitely cheaper to remove the wood and replace it. 
    But I am extremely concerned about the possible new twist to the current 
    law.  I, too, wonder HOW they will possibly find out who does or doesn't 
    have lead paint in their homes, and how may new courthouses they will 
    have to build in order to process the hundreds of thousands of cases 
    against howeowners who have not complied with de-leading orders.
    
    By the way, is wallpaper considered a "cover"?  I'm assuming not, since
    it can be removed and the lead paint would still be there, but I am
    curious.
    

    I believe that when our child had her "pre-school physical" that
    included a test for lead level.  This is from several years back
    so my memory might be a bit cloudy . . .
    

    FWIW:  Mass state law requires testing for lead for all children under
    that age of 12 (may now be 6, I'm not sure).  This is a simple
    finger-prick type test.  As far as knowing about lead paint goes... 
    Any transfer of property (again in Ma) will require the signing of a
    form which I will quote in part below:
    
    ... Under the law certain homeowners must remove point, plaster, soil,
    and other materials that contain dangerous levels od lead and which are
    accessible to children under the age of six.  Removal must be
    undertaken by the owner ofhte house if a child under six years of age
    lives in the house or if ordered to do so by governmental authorities. 
    Deleading can only be done by a licensed deleader.
    
    ... Sellers of homes must provide certain notices and information to
    prospective buyers before a purchase and sale agreement is signed. ...
    Owners who fail to abide by thelaw and do not remove contaminated
    substances are liable for all damages caused by his or her failure to
    comply with the law.  Damages can be trebled is the owner fails to
    comply with the law after being notified of the existance of dangerous
    levels of lead.
    
    
    Dan

re:.54

Yeah, but what the homeowner actually gives the buyer in a real estate
transaction is a paper that says "The owner makes no representation
regarding the presence or absence of lead paint on the property."

That complies with the law.

>>>==>PStJTT

Speaking of lead paint, where can one obtain a Do It Yourself Lead paint test
kit?  Anybody every try it?

Steve

    I saw a $15 test kit at Hammar Hardware in Nashua; I believe I also
    saw them at Builder's Square.  The kit had about 4-6 swabs with a
    chemical in them that would react to lead and do something (I would
    guess change color?  didn't bother to read the package) if lead was
    present.  Not sure if this would work on paint.  The example shown
    on the package was testing a ceramic coffee cup.

re .50:

>    We're talking about the health and safety of children and future
>    generations.

Lead makes kids dumber and more hyperactive.  Kids are dumber and more
hyperactive than they used to be.  Therefore the problem is lead.

Replace "lead" with "TV" and it works just as well.

    There are alot of things that were done 100 years ago that aren't done
    anymore -- and for good reason.
    
    The test kits probably use hydrogen sulfide.  A foul smelling liquid
    that turns black in the presence of lead.  Apply a drop of this
    material to the surface in question and you'll know very quickly
    whether or not there is lead present.

    I've checked through the paint removal notes and I haven't found what
    I'm looking for. The previous owner of our house was overly generous
    when he painted the exterior trim around the windows and consequently
    got white paint all over the aluminum. Does anyone have any suggestions
    on an effective (and easy?) way to remove this paint? It's latex. We've
    been using paint stripper and a rag and it works but it's slow and not
    all that easy.
    
    thanks.
    

re .-1

First thing I'd do is try to rent a _light_duty_ sandblaster. Something with
a stream about the size of a pencil. It will do an amazingly good job in a
very short time. (It will also eat bits of the aluminum frame if you get to
talking to a neighbor and don't pay attention to what you're doing.)

Mickey.

    
    I have the same problem. The idiot painted the storm window frames and
    even got paint in the channels! Now the screens don't work properly.
    I asked at the paint store for something that will take the paint off
    and he pretty much told me to either paint them again or get new ones
    because the work wouldn't be worth the effort. I guess even if you DO
    get the paint off you'll strip away the "anodizing(?)" and the aluminum
    will get oxidized very quickly making the effort worthless. Does anyone
    know if the paint store guy is right? Oh well, the things are falling
    apart  anyway...

    re: .28
    I guess it depends on how much you figure your time is worth.
    
    Removing the aodizing shouldn't much matter functionally, if in fact 
    there is any.  Generally it's used to provide color, but not much
    else.  Aluminum oxidixes virtually instantaneously upon exposure
    to air, but the good news is that the oxide film is extremely tough
    and in itself serves as a protective coating.
    

    Anodization is used to provide corrosion resistance.  It does much more
    than provide color (in fact most anodizing treatments don't change the
    color at all, maybe you're thinking of chromating).  Anodizing aluminum
    is a controlled oxidation process.  The surface of the aluminum is
    oxidized to a stable state and prevents further oxidation from
    occuring.  Natural oxidation doesn't provide this stability.  Using a
    highly alkaline paint stripper would probably strip off the anodization
    layer.  Using something organic like turpentine shouldn't affect it.

    Re: .59
    
    Not to be picky or anything, but just want to make sure "you" get
    accurate test results.  
    
    When testing the area in question, you want to use a knife, take a
    little "nitch" (It hurts to do this especially if youv'e just
    re-painted, but..) out of the trim etc. so you get down to the bare wood
    (exposing all layers of paint), put your drop of solution and wipe with
    a tissue.  As said in .59 if it turns black...it's Lead.  Look
    carefully at the color.  Reason being, if there are layers of stain
    under the paint, when the solution mixes with the stain, it turns a
    dark brown almost black sometimes.  If your color blind I guess it
    won't make much difference.  
    
    Just because it looks like there's 50+ layers of paint, doesn't mean
    it's all Lead, test all areas, you might get lucky and not have any..
    well at least less than you might have thought by visual inspection.
     
                  John
    
    p.s. The latest I've heard, is that Latex paint has traces of mercury
    in it....we going to go some home.  It's probably deadly if you drink
    5 gal of latex paint a day for the next 50 yrs. :-)
    

Boy, I'd love to have a house where my biggest worry was paint on the storm
window trim.  Maybe in three years I'll get screens into all my storms.  ;-)
Can you see this horrendous eye sore from the street?  Considering what those
paint strippers can do to your liver, I've vote with the guy that suggested
painting the rest of the frame, that's what I opted for.

    I didn't say it was my biggest worry, just the most current one, having
    done all the bigger stuff. A little paint stripper on a rag, whilst
    wearing rubber gloves, did the trick. It was fairly slow but it was
    visible from the street and the windows look much better now.
    
    Thanks for all the input.
    
    Pat
    
    p.s. to .-1:  I donate my time to Boy Scouts, thank you.
    

I have another twist to the unstaining dark stained wood problem.

I bought a house three years ago that has open beam ceilings
throughout the house.  The beams are 10" x 6" x 12' for the most
part. The beams are semi-finished meaning that they have not been
sanded down  to a fine, smooth surface.  They are a _bit_ rough. 
The beams have also been heavily stained with a redwood stain. 

My SO and I would like to lighten up the color somehow,
especially after viewing the house next door to us, which has the
same sort of ceiling, but the stain was done in a lighter color,
more like a maple or teak.  Looks beautiful.  I love wood and 
can't ken why anybody would wish to paint over finished
wood. I understand that lightening the current redwood style
stain is not possible, so I am left with four options:

- Tediously sand down all of the beams past the stain penetration
level, making a huge mess with the sawdust and all.

- Applying a bleaching agent as discussed in earlier replies. 
But, obviously, the beams can't be removed to a workshop and I
question how well this bleaching process will work because of the
dark nature of the stain and the porosity of the wood, not to
mention the hassle of applying this stuff over my head.

- A novel idea: Purchase some paneling type material in the color
and pattern we wish, have it cut to length and width, apply it
over the beams, and use matching moulding strips to finish the
edges.  Suggestions here?

- Leave it as is (BLEH!).

Any advice/suggestions would be welcome.

Tim 

>>- Tediously sand down all of the beams past the stain penetration
>>level, making a huge mess with the sawdust and all.

You forgot that it will be nearly impossible to sand near the ceiling and in the
corners, and that in attempting to do so you'll make a mess of the walls and
ceiling.  Discard all notions of this option immediately.

>>- Applying a bleaching agent as discussed in earlier replies. 
>>But, obviously, the beams can't be removed to a workshop and I
>>question how well this bleaching process will work because of the
>>dark nature of the stain and the porosity of the wood, not to
>>mention the hassle of applying this stuff over my head.

Although this is also tedious, it's nowhere near as bad as sanding.  But I'd
find some barely visible area and try a quarter-sized spot before I tried any
large/visible area.

>>- A novel idea: Purchase some paneling type material in the color
>>and pattern we wish, have it cut to length and width, apply it
>>over the beams, and use matching moulding strips to finish the
>>edges.  Suggestions here?

This is not a novel idea, I've seen it many times.  And to my eye it looks far
more tacky than any stain color on a solid beam could possibly look.  A beam,
even a beam stained a color that you're not particularly fond of, still looks 
like a beam.  Regardless of what kind of paneling you use, it will no longer 
look like a beam.  It will look like sheets of paneling with molding strips on 
it.

There is a variant of this that can look good, though.  It takes a bit of work
and more woodworking skill, but still less work than sanding.  Face the beam
with solid pine boards, beveling and gluing the corners.  If you're careful, the
seam is nearly invisible.  If you're not as careful as you'd like, properly
chosen wood putty can fill the crack adequately.  You then have fresh pine that
you can stain any color you like.

Paul

    A friend did the wood-boxing on a beam in his basement. The pine was
    left with a rough finish and where the edges joined, he ran a rasp to
    make the joint also look rough finished. The end product looked like a
    solid beam.
    
    Eric

    you could always sandblast em... ;^)  messy... but it'd work
    
    Fra

RE: <<< Note 580.9 by EVMS::PAULKM::WEISS "Trade freedom for security-lose both" >>>

>>- A novel idea: Purchase some paneling type material ...

>This is not a novel idea, I've seen it many times.  And to my eye
>it looks far more tacky than any stain color on a solid beam
>could possibly look.  A beam, even a beam stained a color that
>you're not particularly fond of, still looks  like a beam. 
>Regardless of what kind of paneling you use, it will no longer 
>look like a beam.  It will look like sheets of paneling with
>molding strips on  it.

The more I think about it, the more you are probably right.  I do not
want the mobile home look at all and I think that is what it will
end up looking like.

>There is a variant of this that can look good, though.  It takes
>a bit of work and more woodworking skill, but still less work
>than sanding.  Face the beam with solid pine boards, beveling
>and gluing the corners.  If you're careful, the seam is nearly
>invisible.  If you're not as careful as you'd like, properly
>chosen wood putty can fill the crack adequately.  You then have
>fresh pine that you can stain any color you like.

Now this is something that I did not think of.  I knew there was
a reason why I entered my dilemma in here.  A skilled woodworker
I am not.  When you say bevel, does that mean cutting the edge at
a 45 degree angle?  


		(CUT AWAY VIEW)
    
 CEILING  ____________________________________________
                      |  |        |  |
                      |  |        |  |
                      |  |  BEAM  |  | <------ PINE BOARD
                      |  |        |  |
                      |  |________|  |
		      | /          \<---------45 DEGREE ANGLE CUT
		      |/____________\|


I'll assume that I can get the lengths and beveling I need done
at the local, reputable lumber yard.  And that I can finish the 
wood before I put it up.  What is the best method for mounting the
the boards to the beams?


Thanks for the suggestions so far.

Tim

You can buy the pine at various places, but don't count on being able to get it
beveled easily.  You'll need a millwork shop to do that.  In any case it will be
a special order and will cost $$.  You may be able to get someone here or in
NOTED::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS to cut the bevels for you.  You should get clear 
pine for this.  Nothing is more of a giveaway that the beam is NOT really a 
solid beam than a knot that only goes halfway around a corner.  Also make sure 
that the boards are dry.  I did this once with rough-sawn boards that were not 
completely dry.  In six months there were �" gaps at all the seams.

If the existing beam is relatively square, then you should be able to just nail
the new boards on with finish nails.  I'd put the side pieces on first.  They
should be cut a little wide so that you can scribe the top to fit the ceiling.
In other words - put it up in place, maybe �" lower than you really want it, and
tack it in place with a couple of nails.  Then mark a line on the board �" down
from the ceiling.  The ceiling is almost certainly not perfectly straight.  Cut
on that line, and the board will fit perfectly to the ceiling.  I'd use 6d or 8d
nails to nail the boards to the beam.  Make sure when you put the sides on that
the bottom edges (with the bevels) are as close to parallel as you can get them.
A constant distance apart, and a constant height.  Then attach the bottom.  In
addition to the nails into the beam, I'd use 4d or 3d nails to nail through the
bevel from one board to the other.  You should also glue the seam.  If you glue
it, it will take a little bit of drying stress without opening up.  Without 
glue, if it shrinks at all, the gap will open.  Don't wipe the glue that 
squeezes out, or it won't stain right.  Stain and finish after it's up - you'll 
want to scrape and sand the seam after assembly.

Paul

re: << Note 580.12 by WEPUBS::COCKERHAM >>>

If you do this:

>               (CUT AWAY VIEW)
>    
> CEILING  ____________________________________________
>                      |  |        |  |
>                      |  |        |  |
>                      |  |  BEAM  |  | <------ PINE BOARD
>                      |  |        |  |
>                      |  |________|  |
>                      | /          \<---------45 DEGREE ANGLE CUT
>                      |/____________\|

You might find it easeir to use just butt joints line this

 CEILING  ____________________________________________
                      |  |        |  |
                      |  |        |  |
                      |  |  BEAM  |  | <------ PINE BOARD
                      |  |        |  |
                      |  |________|  |
                      |  |        |  | <------60 DEGREE CUT
                      |__|________|__|

These joints will be lots easier to make and to assemble.  It would
be really tricky to get the 45� joints to line up neatly.

If it were me, I'd also plane a bevel or use a router to make a small 
radius on the outside of the corners.

Another idea is to recess teh botom piece by 1/4 inch or so, like this:

 CEILING  ____________________________________________
                      |  |        |  |
                      |  |        |  |
                      |  |  BEAM  |  | <------ PINE BOARD
                      |  |        |  |
                      |  |________|  |
                      |  |        |  | <------60 DEGREE CUT
                      |  |________|  |
                      |__|        |__|

hard to make a picture to scale here, but this looks neat and it makes
alignment really E.Z., 'cause small variations in the depth of the recess  
are not at all obvious.

In this case I'd radious or bevel both the inside and outside bottom 
corners of the side pieces.

    If you go with the third (last) suggestion, a dado to let the bottom
    into the sides will hide the inside edge variations and help with the
    alignment some.
    
    I would also suggest getting the material for just one beam initially
    and seeing if you like the look of the finished beam. It might turn out
    to look wrong.

Great suggestions guys!  My thanks.  I will definitely go with a
sample set up before I invest heavily into the whole job.

Tim

Keep in mind that the boxed approach, though considerably easier, won't look 
like a solid beam.  It will look like a boxed beam, which although not bad 
(better than paneling) still doesn't match the solid look.  Mitered boards, done
correctly, will be very difficult to distinguish from a solid beam.

Paul

    Well I just finished sanding our master bedroom.  Three coats
    of Fabulon later and the floor looks great!  Unfortunately, there
    seem to be holes in our floor, and I dripped Fabulon on our
    living room couch, floor, and worst of all, grand piano.
    The piano has been in my wife's family for generations, and
    it's a shame to see it globbed with polyurethane. The really bad
    news is that I didn't notice the problem until the Fabulon was
    well dried.  The piano is walnut with (I think) a (poly)urethane
    finish.
    
    Any ideas on how to remove the globs without ruining the finish?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ken

    I should probably add that there are two major globs.  ON is about
    an inch in diameter and is on a flat surface, the other is about two
    inches in diameter and is on a grooved survace (where the sheet
    music sits).
    
    Don't want this to be to easy :-).

    Well, if it's an old piano, the finish is almost certainly shellac.
    Shellac is very easy to remove.  Fabulon is a modern sooper-dooper
    finish and very difficult to remove - at least, compared with
    shellac.  Sounds to me as though you have about the worst possible
    combination.  If it was the other way around it would be easy (just
    to brighten up your day... ;-)  )  I guess I'd initially try prying,
    *very* carefully, with a knife blade in the hope that the accumulated
    grime of the ages on the piano has kept the Fabulon from adhering
    very well.  A gentle application of a hair dryer might help pop it
    loose too; not enough heat to soften the finish, just enough to get
    the Fabulon to expand and break free...this is based on the idea 
    (folorn hope) that it's not well adhered and can be encouraged to
    come loose with a little motivation.

I dunno about the shellac premise.  Ther are a lot of old pianos with
oil finishes and other things.  In any case I'd steer clear of the
knife -- no use adding "how do I get gouges out of a piano?" to the list.

If it's imporant and the piano is in good shape, get an estimate on
refinishing the piano.  Pianos aren't like violins -- they get worse
with age not better. It might not be worth fixing.  On the other hand,
you can always apply time -- give it a couple of weeks and you'll stop noticing....

>>>==>PStJTT

    Try the hair drier trick and hope that your "wax build-up" over the
    years will save you. The big thing to remember is that you've got
    plenty of time and don't have to do anything drastic immediately. Try
    easy, non-destructive methods first and slowly escalate. Have the
    refinisher in to give you and estimate and maybe they'll have a
    suggestion.

Or just, very carefully, shave off the Fabulon with a razor blade.

Paul

    Thanks for all the ideas.  Fortunately, I had partially misdiagnosed
    the problem.  It seems that puddles of Fabulon dry hard on the surface
    long before they dry hard below, so removal wasn't that difficult.  I
    also think that whatever was on the piano (dirt, wax, finish, etc.)
    wasn't easy for the FABULON to adhere to, as even the edges came up
    with only a cloth and paint thinner.
    
    I just hope my mistake might caution others.  
    
    Ken

    I have just spent the last week speaking with, lead paint removers,
    contractors, and lawyers.  The latter two both said the same thing it
    is the latest scam.  Naturally the lead paint remover made it sound as
    if death learked around every corner.  The house in question is rently
    property with no lead on the inside, 8 windows have some lead paint on
    them and the corner boards ans rake boards on each end of the house. 
    to remove the 8 windows and scrape the corner boards and rakes and
    remove two shutters $2400.00.  Once your property is documented as
    having lead paint on it by a lead paint inspector you are doomed.  As
    in pre World War II Germany and current day Communist Countries a report
    goes to the STATE and basicly, they have got you.  I was told by the
    inspector you hae 10 days to contract with a lead paint removal company
    and because it was only outside 120 to have the work started or
    completed (I didn't get that straight).  You the property owner can't
    touch a thing.  The occupants have to be out of the house while the
    work is being done probably about two days.  From what I got from real
    contractors and the legal end of it was, you can't get out of it and
    the lead paint removers do little more than throw the stuff in the
    local dump.  
    
    So if you suspect that you have some lead paint on the exterior of your
    house (State guidelines seemed to be anything painted before the
    mid-70's) I say bring some paint chips some place to get tested (lie
    about the address) if it is positive that you have lead paint, remove the 
    trim, the windows, the doors and anything else that you can get off and
    replace with new wood and paint yourself.  Because once the vultures
    get wind of it they will pick your pocket with the governments
    permission.  Inside may be a different story, but the removal guy said
    that the situation gets worse when you start to disturb the stuff.  You
    probably do need a pro for inside sanding of things (because they havev
    special tools and vacuum cleaners, but doors that you just have to
    remove a couple pins on I would not think would kill entire city
    populations.  
    
    I kind of remember my parents feeding me three meals a day, and I can
    never remeber having this uncontrolable urge to chew on a window ledge
    or a door.  Our dogs never even did that.  I am sure there is some
    creadance to the toxic qualities of lead, but so is there to the
    toxisity of cigaretts but there is no, hands in the air, and out with
    the wallet with them.  
    
    Remove boards, windows and all then have it inspected for the stuff you
    missed and the tough stuff that a professional should handle.
    
    In twenty years we are all going to be in a real mess when they mandate
    that all "Presure Treated" wood must go.  Laugh at me now but you will
    all owe me a beer in 2011.  Of cource by then beer will be out toxic.
    
    Paul   

    What State do you have the property in?
    
    Marc H.

    It is probably improper to recommend that someone perform what would be
    an illegal act in a notes file because soemone could then "blame it on
    DEC and DEC's resources, etc.
    
    Now if .12 were not written as a recommendation it might be more
    reasonable to hang around.
    
    ed

    I'll re-ask my question of a few notes ago: Could someone elaborate on
    what a homeowner is allowed to DIY regarding lead paint removal?  The
    property is in Massachusetts.

    re .-1 DIY lead paint removal???????

    To the best of my knowledge - in Taxachussettes (as well as several
    other states including Florida) it is illegal for the home owner to DIY
    lead paint removal. Check with your local Zoning board or even the town
    clerk for specific details. The rules may have changed since my wife
    ordered me out of local politics a few years back. :*)

    The removal people are generally licensed, and have the special permits
    required for hazardous waste disposal. It will probably cost you a lot
    of bucks to get done -_- BUT -_- if you DIY and get caught without
    permits and license it will cost you a LOTTTTT MOOOOOOre in fines.
    (mostly from EPA and DEQE) 

  I'm not sure if this helps, but I am currently renovating my house. It was 
build in the the 40's. The interior has the old 2 panel doors, and simple 1 X 5
trim. I don't know for sure, but somewhere under the 10 layers paint there may 
be some lead paint. As part of the renovations I am replacing all the door's 
and wood  work. I guess as as in-direct benifit, some of the most potential
dangeros areas of my house  will be guaranteed ti be lead free. So instead of
de-leading, prehaps it in your case it would be cheeper to replace? Of couse
if your have beautiful woodwork that you would like to keep, this is probably
not an option for you.

-bob 

.-1 has the right idea.  DIY deleading may be illegal, but DIY replacement
of doors, windows, and trim isn't.  The fact that said doors, windows, and
trim are covered with 14 layers of lead paint is incidental.  From what I've
seen, if you have beautiful woodwork before deleading, you won't have
beautiful woodwork after deleading.

    Boy, oh boy. Do I agree with -1. These people that make the laws
    have,nt got a clue as to what they are doing.  DIY changing of
    woodwork is the way to go.
    
    RE: a few back. I think thats correct that if you have a certified
    inspector come in they find lead, then a report goes to the state.
    THEN YOU ARE SCREWED.
    
    BTW, I certainly would not condone any illegal acts but fwiw I know
    someone who can check for lead paint discreetly with no reports of
    any kind. Of course I would'nt think of doing that.
    
    

    
       I just bought my house through VA and ofcource had to have a full
    house insepection.  This inspection was given to VA, the state and
    ofcource the bank.  My house is about 60+ years old and is loaded with
    lead paint.  I have 15 doors/frames and 17 windows plus a front porch
    all have seeveral layers of lead paint.  Now none of the paint is
    peeling or flaking but it did give me great conserns about the law and
    the cost of having it removed.  
    
       I called the Mass. lead paint counsel to get the scoop on it.  The
    law is:  The buyer of the house is responsible for the removel of the
    all lead paint up to at least 3 1/2 feet from the floor, if there is a
    child under the age of (I think it was 6 but it might have been 7). 
    There is no time limit to get this done ie.the state won't force you to
    do it.  The only time the state mandates that it be done (I think it
    was 60 days) is if one of your children test high on a lead poison test.
    Doctors are reqiured by the state to run this test on children during
    thier normal check up's (once a year).  The laws are different if you
    own apartments.
    
       As far as removel is conserned, you can strip/remove the lead paint
    from your own house if you want or you can replace the old woodwork. 
    The problem is in disposing of the stuff.  The state says you can
    remove it but you can throw it out with your trash.  It has to be
    thrown into a hazardious materials waste dump (same place they take old
    shingles).  There are quite a few private trash companies who do this
    and it's not that expencive.  Now on the other hand if you throw it in
    your trash and no one knows??  Lastly, if you don't want to do it
    yourself the person you hire must be licinsed by the state for lead
    paint removel.  The major reason for this is $$$ and liability, Joe
    Handy strips all your lead paint and then has lead poisoning and then
    takes you to court for a life time health problem!!!!
    
       I hope I've been some help with this I don't have the number for the
    lead counsel but if anyone needs it send me mail and I'll dig it out.
    
    
    				David (Nightmare on Phelps St.) 

I can't see why you couldn't get a lead paint check informally.  If lead is
found, the state wouldn't be told, but you would at least know.  Why would this
not be legitimate?

Ed..

    
    You can buy lead testing kits in HW and paint stores for $10 - $12.
    
    	Don
    
    

    
       RE:21 There is nothing wrong with testing for lead paint yourself. 
    As metinoned in 22 you can buy the test kit in a good hardware store. 
    It doesn't take alot of time to do it yourself (about 30 sec. per
    area).
    
       I just said that mine was done by a inspector who is required to 
    report to the state.
    
    
    				David (Bathroom plans underway)
    

    Lead Paint (Political aspect in Fitchburg, MA, probably will become
    defacto practice in  urban-blighted areas).
    
    The December 4th, 1991 issue of the Worcester Telegram carried 
    a story about the "Lead Paint" scenario in  Fitchburg. One of the 
    contributing factors to rental properties becoming abandoned is that
    the owners don't want to pay for the lead paint stripping; and
    the city, if it should become the defacto landlord (be default),
    also don't want to be liable for the lead paint liability.
    
    To get around this, the city of Fitchburg either has, or is
    investigating, abandoning the "Occupancy License". As I understand
    it, the city inspects properties and issues an "Occupancy permit"
    to the owner. If the city should make a mistake, and issue a permit
    to a property (ie lead paint) which is unfit for occupancy, they are
    then also liable, jointly with the owner.
    
    I have an extra copy of this article, and I believe most Fitchburg
    and Leominster residents get this as a "freebie" in  their mail. It
    starts on page 1 (feature story).
    
    The article further goes on, and some of the "Lead Poison" statistics
    ranks Fitchburg high, with 7 out of 1000 children tested, Gardener
    with 3 cases (doesn't say if per 1000 or total number).
    
    This topic became very "Real to me" a couple of years back when our
    church considered renting the parsonage, and found ourselves in a
    catch 22 situation (also being socially responsible). The problem
    was this:
    - It is illegal to deny housing to anyone with young children, on that
    basis of them having children.
    
    - It is illegal to rent a house with lead based paint within (3 1/2)
    feet of the floor, including window sills (some children chew on
    wooden surfaces).

    - The estimate to delead the parsonage was $50,000 (appraised value
       was $185,000).
    
    We read the entire state code, city code, and the proposed
    amendments; and though the code is very tough, the aforementioned
    article describes the city's position in  wanting to avoid liability;
    don't want landlords to abandon properties when  low income housing
    is so low; and seem to be more amenable to finding a workable
    solution for everyone (perhaps excluding the 7 out of 1000 children
    who might chew painted surfaces).
    
    One needs to appreciate also that lead poisoning by paint is just but
    one source. Window putty and old plaster (arsenic gives old plaster
    its sweet taste).

    Bob
        
    

    Legally, you can't remove any woodwork which contains lead paint. The
    only thing you can DIY is cover or use "Peel Away".  I know of someone
    who used wallpaper border to cover door frames, window frames and
    sills, and it passed the lead paint inspection.  All he had to do was
    replace windows.  $1500 as opposed to $10,000.  I guess I could live
    with the border for that amount of $$$!  Those lead paint test kits
    only tell you if you have lead paint present, but not the level of
    lead. Some level is acceptable.  Most inspectors will do the same
    thing.  If you need an inspection, call around and find one who uses
    the meter.  It may save you thousands of dollars in removal costs! 
    

    Dang, this is interesting.  Re -.1: Could you cite the reference which
    states the homeowner is not allowed to remove woodwork which contains
    lead paint?  I understood from a few notes back homeowners were allowed
    to remove both lead paint and woodwork containing lead paint; disposal
    of these hazardous materials was the issue.  Secondly, why is Peel Away
    acceptable?

re: 1214.25                  Lead paint stripping                      25 of 26
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                        -< Covering is only DIY method >-
>
>    Legally, you can't remove any woodwork which contains lead paint. The
>    only thing you can DIY is cover or use "Peel Away".  I know of someone
>    who used wallpaper border to cover door frames, window frames and

This is just one more indication of the "difference of opinion" derived
from interpretations of the "Lead Paint" code(s) ...

The caveat for removing the wood, is that all lead paint removed is supposed
to wind up in a toxic dump.

One needs to avoid confusion between what the "rulebook" says, and what
"current acceptable" practice is ... when in doubt, consult the codes directly,
and check with local building inspectors on what the local authorities really
require.

I am not one to imply people should bypass the rules, as that would be
illegal. However, this specific comment "..Legally, you can't remove any 
woodwork .." is completely contrary to one of our options offered by the 
City of Fitchburg when we were comtemplating removing the lead paint
from our old parsonage ... and we did have the state, city, and future
edition of the "Lead Paint" code (in 1990) in our hot little hands, and
talked to 2 contractors ...

In past editions of "This Old House" Journal, are several methods of removing
lead paint "safely". The basic tools are "personal coverups" and 
respirators (I won't go into details here, since details are so much more
explained in other places).

Bob

    How's this :
    P. 13 of the lead paint law (Massachusetts), section 2:
    "(2) No person shall enter into, engage in, or conduct deleading
    operations unless such person shall have received a license therefore."
    
    This is the 1988 version, but I have no reason to believe they removed
    this section, since it lines their pockets with license fees and the
    state-sponsored training program.  The removal of lead-contaminated
    woodwork may not be strictly considered "deleading operations", but
    don't bet on it in this state! We also have a friend of the family
    who has recently been licensed.  He said you can't do it yourself if
    you "Know" there is lead paint present.  He also said if you are being
    inspected, insist on the machine that measures the levels of lead
    paint, not just that chip/acid solution.  Some levels are legal (so
    far), and the chip test only tells you if it is lead-based, not how
    much lead.
    Peel-Away "encapsulates" the lead paint without causing dust or chips,
    so if you follow the directions precisely you are OK.  I don't know if
    the state has accepted that or not, but I know "This Old House" said it
    was OK : )  
    I don't know if this muddies the waters or not, but if you are being
    inspected, don't volunteer any information that you did some of it
    yourself.  If may get you in hot water!

re .-1:

If you don't have it tested, you don't know that it contains lead.
Thus, you may be able to remove painted woodwork yourself legally.
It's probably cheaper to replace all your doors, windows, and woodwork
yourself than to have even a few pieces deleaded.

re Peel-away:

I thought lead is supposed to leach into the wood, so that just removing
the paint isn't sufficient -- some of the wood has to be removed too.

    Well, after having had a lead paint inspection in one of our empty
    units yesterday, I cannot vouch for the effectiveness of Peel-Away in
    removing lead paint.  With the meter, the BARE wood that was stripped
    with Peel Away showed the highest lead paint reading possible!  It
    still passed inspection, because the wood was bare.  But, if I paint it
    and we have another inspection, it will not pass.  So, the two pieces
    which were Peel-Away-ed are going to be removed and replaced.  Because
    there is no lead paint remaining, the inspector said we could remove it
    ourselves.  The lead did not leach into the wood on the places which
    were dry-scraped.  I asked him about DIY lead paint removal, and he
    said if you are "deleading", you can't do it yourself.  But there is
    nothing to stop a homeowner from remodeling.  Just make sure you don't
    "remodel" lead=paint contaminated wood if you have a child in the
    house, because it WILL show up in the annual lead=paint screening if you
    sand/scrape.  Minute particles float in the air and are inhaled. A
    small child will show an incredibly high reading from an incredibly
    small amount of lead dust.  Then the state inspector will be on your
    door step, and you  know the rest of the song $$$$.
    Sarah 

    Since I am in the middle of having my home/apartments de-leaded, here
    is what I have learned.
    
    If a surface with lead is "not accessible" or not "mouthable" then it
    is not considered a hazard.  That means that if you have a plain baseboard
    which is in good repair (i.e. no peeling paint), you can tack a quarter
    round to the top of it, and voila you've abated the baseboard.  Wall
    to wall carpeting abates a floor with peeling paint.
    
    What they did in my home seemed to be the least expensive (labor and
    materials) and longest lasting.  The replaced all windows, casings and
    trim.  They replaced all interior and exterior doors, casings and trim.
    They carpeted a couple of staircases.
    
    Craig

    Funny what they consider "accessible".  In an apartment which was just
    inspected we have cabinets up above the 5 foot line.  When the
    inspecter said they had to be deleaded, I questioned their
    accessibility. He stated that if a child was sitting on the countertop,
    it would be accessible.  I suppose ANY wood would be accessible with
    that kind of logic (if a child dragged a ladder out and climbed to the
    top, he/she could chew on the tops of the windows casings). Go
    figure...
    

    
    I have an exposed bread chimney in the kitchen of an old house that
    someone painted brick red...why? You got me, since bricks are red,
    but I digress.
    
    I would love to remove the paint, did anyone have any good results
    with strippers vs sandblasting (I've read all the previous replies).
    
    Stripping brick seems like such a bear since brick is porous.
    
    I think it will be worth a try though, this chimney has a black
    cast iron door for bread baking, I love it. Also would help improve
    an otherwise sunny but in need of help kitchen.
    
    Deb

    How about black crayon on unpainted brick and mortar?  My two-year-old
    decided to decorate our fireplace...

    I don't want to pay for sandblasting, and clean the house.  I was
    thinking of engine scour, but I'm afraid it would stain the brick.
    Any experience using a torch to burn crayon off?

    My neighbor suggested that a hand grenade is good for things like this,
    but I want to keep the house a little longer.

    
    	Try placing an old towel over the crayon marks, and then use a HOT
    	iron on top.  The towel should soak up the melted wax.
    
    	CP
    

    
    Re -1 
    
    It could work, the usual method for waxy stains is to apply low heat
    through blotting paper with a hairdryer or iron.  I this case, the wax
    will probably be absorbed by the porous brick.  Torching it will at
    least burn off the crayon wax base leaving the dye.
    
    You might get the dye out by bleaching with hydrogen peroxide paste
    & a few drops of ammonia, or just with household bleach & an old tooth
    brush.
    
    I'd recommend running a pilot project on an old brick first!
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

    Re .14
    
    Some years ago, I had a fireplace with smoke stains on the bricks.
    I was able to remove them by burning them off with a propane
    torch. Although that might work for your paint removal, I recommend
    great care doing so. First, with paint there will be a great deal
    of smoke. Second, if the paint has a lead base, DON'T! Third, be
    very carefull.
    
    Joe

    Re .18
    
    Are there any lead paint test kits on the market that I could use?
    I don't want to have an inspector do it unless I have to $$.
    
    I definately will test the paint before I do anything to it.
    
    Deb

I did this about 6 years ago.  It was a messy project but the results were
worth the effort.  

I used a product (can't remember the name) which was quite pasty.  The product
is a paint remover designed for use on exterior brick surfaces. It is brushed
on and sits for a period of time and is then washed off with high-pressure
water. 

Was I crazy to try this approach inside?  Everyone thought so but everything I
tried previously, including sandblasting, was not successful.  This fireplace
had quite a few layers of paint.

The process I used was to put down plastic, brush the remover on the brick, 
wash it off with water from a portable garden sprayer (the ones with the
pump on top and a little hose attached, holds about 2 gallons), then suck up
the liquid with a shop vac.

It took many nights but it worked!

    Does anyone know of a DIY lead paint test kit I can buy
    myself?  It's just to test some paint on a chimney.  I'd
    like to do it myself rather than hiring an inspector to
    do it....
    
    Thanks,
    Deb

Most every hardware store I've been in (and some paint stores) have had them.
The typical tester is a tube with two swabs - you swab on one solution and
then the other, looking for a color change.  They're under $10.

				Steve

    
    
    Thanks! I'll look for one at the hardware store...
    
    Deb

    Isn't Oxalic Acid (sp) made for cleaning brick/motar?  I belive this
    was the stuff i used once when my youngest, and her friends, decided to
    paint the neighbors porch, and chimney. (they were all about 5yrs old
    at the time)
    Of course the clean up was only for patches of paint that were
    indescriminately applied. Not a complete cover up.

    re: .21
    Probably not oxalic acid - more likely muriatic acid (another name
    for commercial grade (vs. laboratory grade) hydrocloric acid).

    Your right, Muriatic Acid.
    

    The Mass. Public Health Association had a hearing yesterday about
    proposed changes to the lead paint law.  Some of the provisions are
    that if lead paint removal has occured, the homeowner will have to
    produce evidence that it was done by a certified deleader or there will
    be serious repurcussions (fines?).  The law also proposes to make it
    illegal for a homeowner to delead their own home, *even if that
    homeowner has become a certified deleader*.  Apparently a large number
    of landlords were taking the certification exam so that they could do
    it themselves, rather than pay the high cost of a deleader.  They are
    also debating the test procedure to declare your home contains lead. 
    One of the methods used now is the sodium sulfide test which as
    mentioned here can be misread.  Some landlords at the hearing
    complained that there has been no quantitative level set for lead
    because it is not known how much in the home is a hazard.  They have
    only correlated the _blood_ level with health effects.
    	Linda

    Dare I ask what the logic behind not allowing a certified de-leader to
    do their own home is?
    
    Argh.....
    
    Edd

    Conflict of interest?  I don't really know but will ask.
    	Linda

    Does anyone have a phone number that would allow us to voice our
    opinion on this one?
    
    Bob

    I see no difficulty getting around this one. Simply find another
    landlord who is certified and swap de-leading jobs.

    How will they know if de-leading has occurred?  Suppose only 2 of
    the 7 rooms had lead paint.  The rest were varnished and re-painted
    with latex.  Would they just assume the entire house had lead paint and
    that it must have removed illegally?  How can they prove the homeowner
    removed it without witnessing the removal process?  (binoculars from a
    neighbors house? affa davits from neighbors that you were doing some
    "remodeling"?).  I think the state will only listen to prospective
    tenants complain that they can't find decent housing because all the
    landlords have pulled their apartments off the market because we can't
    afford to conform to all the regulations.     

    Sounds like the de-leaders "union" (if there is one) is even stronger
    than the plumbers union!!!

    	grins,

    	CB

    re: .62
    
    Logic? This is the People's Republic of Massachusetts where logic and
    common sense have no business being brought into the decision-making
    process! I know, you forgot for a moment that this was in Mass.
    
    P@

   Well, I've read through all the replies in this note from the last
   couple of years, and I still have questions  :-).  Let me try to
   summarize my understanding of this stuff...
   
   A) In Mass., if wood on your property is identified as containing
      lead paint (at the right levels and locations to be a risk),
      then that lead paint must, by law, be "fixed".
   
   B) To "fix" the lead paint, a property owner can either have the
      wood replaced, or have the lead paint removed from the original
      wood, or cover the original wood somehow.
   
   C) An "average" property owner can legally only do the last option
      themselves.  To have wood stripped or removed, a property owner
      must have a state certified professional do the work.
   
   OK, so here starts my questions....
   
   o Are these statements true?  In particular, I question whether C)
     is completely accurate ... 
   
   o If a property owner wants to have the wood replaced (as in
     remodeling), is it necessary to find a carpenter certified in
     lead removal to do the work?
   
   o Once lead paint wood is removed, I understand that it is to be
     treated as toxic waste.  Is this true?
   
   o Presuming that lead paint wood is toxic waste, who is legally
     allowed to dispose of it?  Specifically, can a property owner
     take this wood to a toxic disposal site, or is it necessary to
     have the same state certified people dispose of it as well?
   
   o I presume that there are fines and the like for not following
     these rules, right?
   
   Thanks,
   
   - Tom

don't delead-  remodel.

    I just saw an episode of the home repair show on Chanel 2, I think it's
    called Home Time. Anyway they were demonstrating some paint stripping
    products. They had one that was on a semi-paste base which was applied
    and let set overnight. What caught my eye was that the manufacturer
    claims that this stripper "neutralizes" the effect of lead paint so
    it's safe to use and dispose the waste with other trash. If this is
    true, it could save us megabucks. Anybody know anything about it?
    Would the state (Mass) approve it as an alternative to "professional
    removers"? 
    

re: .34

>>   don't delead-  remodel.

   Ok, fair enough.  Calling it remodeling may avoid certain
   complications, might be cheaper and will accomplish the same
   results - that is, remove contaminated wood and replace it with new
   stuff, and allow the property to pass a lead test.  But... 
   
   I still have 2 issues - safety, and proper disposal.

   (btw - I'm not currently a property owner, so this is mostly
   curiosity for the moment, but I plan on owning property, so I want
   to understand what needs to happen if I run into lead paint later
   on ... )

   o What are the health hazards for adults working with lead
     contaminated wood?   Obviously removing wood is less hazardous
     than refinishing or sanding it, but how much less?  If there are
     health risks, then I am morally obligated to warn the carpenter
     before he starts.  Would that mean that I should be looking for a
     "lead paint certified" carpenter instead of a "regular" one?

   o Even if there are no health risks to adults, there is still the
     issue of the proper disposal of lead contaminated wood.  I
     presume that there are state regulations around the disposal of
     lead paint wood, right?   Can anybody summarize the current
     regulations for me?  Is that something I can dispose of, or do I
     need to get someone who is state registered to handle the
     disposal?
   
   Thanks,
   
   - Tom

I used a home-test lead kit, and found some areas containing lead.
I'm taking care of the exterior via vinyl siding.

One other area of current concern is the exterior of window sashes. Although
the interiour turned up negative on the home-test, the exteriors turned
up positive.

Knowing that the home-test kits are extremely sensitive (makes false
positives more likely and false negatives less likely), I want to
get a more accurate reading of the lead level. I'm not ready to have
an inspector come with the "official state" testing, so I'd like to
scratch off a sample and send it somewhere to be analyzed.

Anybody know of a service providing this? Elsewhere in these notes, there
is a pointer to a service in New Hampshire... but not for Massachusetts.

Thanks!

    
    What I want to know is why we aren't all retarded or dead from lead
    exposure (or exposure to anything for that matter)?  I've only lived in
    two houses built prior to 1978 in my entire life and my IQ is just fine
    thank you.  I understand that there is a potenial hazard, but there is
    a greater hazard of getting lead posioning from drinking alchol from
    lead crystal.  Is Mass going to outlaw lead crystal too?  I'd also like
    to know WHO is going to certify that all state and local properties are
    deleaded and that this was done by certified deleaders.  I'd also like
    to know if the state will outlaw deleading of state and local
    properties by de-leaders certified by Mass.  It seems that the same
    "logic" applied to self-deleading could be applied to State
    Certification.....
    
    I'm sick to death of this whole issue.  I have young kids and I worry
    about this to some degree, but Chr*st, I'm more worried about sending
    my kids to Mass Public Schools (and I think the chowder-heads in the
    legislature should be too!!!!!!)
    
    Just my humble opinion as a parent and old house owner.....
    
    Stu

    There's a childhood condition called pica, which is an abnormal desire
    to eat substances not normally eaten, such as paint chips and plaster.  It 
    is not uncommon, but it is usually a disease related to poverty and
    malnutrition.  
    

�Is Mass going to outlaw lead crystal too?  
    
    I don't know about Mass, but the Feds may.  There are a few lead
    elimination bills under consideration.  There is alot of working going
    on in the solder and electronics industries to find lead free solders
    for electrical use.  The major concern around solder and lead crystal
    is possible contamination of ground water from lead crystal, TVs,
    radios, computers, etc. being disposed of in landfills.

    re -1
    
    When I first heard this story about lead crystal the emphasis was on
    how long you kept a liquid unused in the same crystal container.
    It also depended on the chemical composition of the liquid. The leach
    rate was insignificant for tapwater (should you want to serve it from
    crystal!) so landfill disposal should not be a problem for crystal.
    
    But you caused me to wonder - what happens to all the contaminated
    wood when a house is deleaded?  Into the landfill?
    
    Colin
    
    

    The literature for the Health Care Reimbursement Account states that
    dealing with household lead is one of the acceptable uses of these
    funds.  
    
    HCRA is the deal where money gets pulled out of your salary before you
    pay any taxes on it.  Deadline for applying is December 11 (tomorrow).
    

    
    RE: .71
    
    I am not complaining about the legislation to prevent slum lords from
    ignoring a potentially hazardous condition in his/her building(s). 
    What upsets me is the intrusion of the State Government into MY HOME! 
    I understand that lead paint is a potenial hazard to all, but I should
    have the right to deal with it myself.  I, and many other owners of old
    homes are upstanding, intelligent people with good common sense.  The
    hazards are known, it should be up to us to insure that we protect 
    ourselves and families.  This type of State intervention can and will 
    spread to all facets of our lives.  The next thing you know the State 
    will tell you what kind of tooth paste you HAVE to brush your children's 
    teeth with to protect them from potential dangerous gum disease.  
    Potentially dangerous because early tooth loss leads to poor self-image,
    which leads to depression, which leads to a life of crime.
    
    Okay, a little off the subject but....
    
    Lead paint is a potential hazard so precautions need to be taken, but
    just about everything you do in repair/renovation of an old house is a
    potential hazard.  How would you like the State to tell you it was
    illegal to roof your own house because you might drop a bundle of
    shingles on your children or that they might swallow the nails?
    
    Okay, time to get off my soap box....
    
    By the way, this is just my humble (or maybe not so humble) opinion.  
    None of the above reflects the views of this station or it's managment....
    
    Stu 
    (Libertarian in philosophy, 
     but a bit more realistic in practice)

    
    RE: .73
    
    There are recent studies that suggest alcohol absorbs significant
    amounts of lead from Lead Crystal with extremely short contact times. 
    The articles I read indicated that several parts per million could be
    absorbed in the time between filling the glass and picking it up to
    drink.  It also indicated that current beleif is that several parts per
    million poses a significant health risk.
    
    So, if you're paranoid about lead, ditch your crystal!  By the way, if
    you decide to sell it.....
    
    One article even indicated that Waterford had discontinued it's
    extremely popular Lead Crystal Baby Bottle in an attempt to minimise
    health hazards to infants.  Now I don't know about you, but the last
    time I checked milk/baby formula was not considered a very good
    leeching agent for heavy metals.  And I don't know anybody who admits
    to giving thier baby alcohol in a crytal baby bottle......
    
    Stu

>                                      And I don't know anybody who admits
>    to giving thier baby alcohol in a crytal baby bottle......

W.C. Fields?

>    But you caused me to wonder - what happens to all the contaminated
>    wood when a house is deleaded?  Into the landfill?
    
      The wood and/or scrapings from de-leading are considered hazardous
      waste.  They must be disposed of in a  hazardous  waste  landfill.
      These landfills are lined and monitored to prevent leaching of the
      hazardous material.

      At  lest this is the law as I understand it.  I'd bet that a *LOT*
      of material painted with  lead  paint  gets  dumped  into  regular
      landfills.

                     <<< Note 2445.76 by EBBV03::CRIPPEN >>>
                       -< Alcohol and Lead Crystal..... >-

>    One article even indicated that Waterford had discontinued it's
>    extremely popular Lead Crystal Baby Bottle in an attempt to minimise
>    health hazards to infants.  Now I don't know about you, but the last
>    time I checked milk/baby formula was not considered a very good
>    leeching agent for heavy metals.  And I don't know anybody who admits
>    to giving thier baby alcohol in a crytal baby bottle......
    
    One thing people DO USE in baby bootles is fruit juices, and the acidic 
base fo fruit juice is excellent for leaching lead out of glaze and 
crystal. So, Waterford is VERY smart to drop the item from the line...

    And the .77 reply mentioned alcohol....I have heard of people, often in 
Europe, giving the baby a little diluted beer to soothe the child and put 
it to sleep.......works like a charm. They don't have near the hang ups 
about youth and alcohol that we have in this country.

    	Vic

    re:-1
    
    How much for one of this hot plates? and can they bought anywhere etc.
    like a home depot?
    
    

    Can anybody give some advice on how to remove porcelain paint from an
    electric stove burner ?  We left an empty pan on the high heat and
    the paint transferred from the pot to the burner....
    I tried reheating and scraping without sucess, also tried burning it
    off for 5 minutes at cherry red without sucess.  

    
    
    Sandblasting????...   If all else fails...get a new burner??
    
    

I believe I, too, would opt for a new element. Or disregard it. One other
possible approach, if you don't care for the appearance and don't want
to spring for the new element, would be to obtain some porcelain glaze
which matches the element (black?) and try brushing some on and turning
the burner on high again. It just might fuse the new glaze onto the
stuff that's of concern and at least mask it to a degree.

You need to get the type of porcelain glaze that's made to be baked or
kilned. A craft store or ceramic supply place should carry it.

-Jack

Get a new element.  The porcelain paint will show up on anything that you
put on that burner, and you'll never get it off the burner or the "infected"
pot.  I've tried.

    Anybody know of the status of the resin paint that is hopefully going
    to be approved as a cover for lead paint?  Last I knew (from a friend
    who was in the lead-paint stripping business) it was going for approval
    U.S.-wide, but the chances of it passing in Massachusetts were
    slim-to-none.  Anybody have an update?
    Sarah

    I have an antique mirror with a picture frame that is painted black.
    Under the black paint is a plaster coat.
    Under that is a beautiful hand carved solid mahogony frame.
    
    The paint and plaster have worked there way into the grain,
    but mahogany is so hard the the plaster and paint and be scraped
    out the grain with ones finger nail. Although this is fine
    for a small area Id spnd my life doing the whole frame 3'x4'
    
    Any advice on stripping paint AND plaster?
     

    
    If you are certain it's mahogany, soak it off.  Mahogany resists water
    very well, and plaster does not. The risk with this is that if it was
    constructed with old fashioned animal glue, the joints will come
    unglued too.  Find the joints & clean these up by hand, then wrap the
    lengths in a wet towel surrounded with polythene.  It will soften
    up in a few hours and you can scrub it off with an old toothbrush.
    
    (btw - If it has a grain you can get a fingernail into, I would be
    surprised if it's mahogany.  Maybe old oak, where the plaster was used
    as a grain filler?)
    
    Colin

    Im sure its mahogany the oxblood color and dark hair line grain
    are pretty much give aways, and it hard as hell. I carved a 
    walking staff out of this stuff in high-school and recognize
    the wood. 
    
    One of the joints has a small gap and I can see
    it was doweled with two approx 1/2" plugs.
    
    I'll try stripping a small section of paint then wraping
    the exposed plaster as you suggest and see what happens.
    
    -Brian

This probably isn't the right note, but...rather than start a new one...

I am about to paint the exterior of my house.  It hasn't been painted in
many (>15) years.  It is badly peeling, and needs to be scraped.

Should I assume that the top layer or one of the underlayers (there appear
to be two layers beneath) contain lead?  I would guess so.  In that case...

How does one safely scrape the exterior and contain the chips which fall
to the ground?  Is it necessary to contain the chips?  Can lead leach into
the soil and/or water and cause problems?  Also, is there a hazard to the
person doing the scraping?

Thanks,

Marc

    You can buy test swabs for a few dollars that check for lead.
    I think a box of 4 is about $15 or something.  Then you'll
    know for sure if you have anything to worry about.
    
    I think you're supposed to put down a tarp and catch the chips;
    the lead can leach into the soil and groundwater.  Of course, then
    you need to do something with the chips....  
    It would probably be a good idea to wear a mask of some kind.  A
    simple dust mask would help, or you can get special masks approved
    for lead if you're feeling especially paranoid; outside, I'm not
    sure I'd be that paranoid, but it's up to you.
    You can also buy disposable Tyvek coveralls for about $6 that 
    will keep the stuff off your clothes.  

re: .37

	Where are you?   In NH call Public Health  at 800-852-3345 ext 4507.
They used to test paint chips for a real cheap price.  I'm sure they've gone
up.  They also have very good advice.

    
      FYI -- From my own experience, in the state of Mass. after it is
    determined to be lead paint, it's "unlawful" for anyone but a "licensed"
    deleader to remove it..  This was an expensive lesson learned by me while
    dealing with our beloved state agencies who, are here to "protect" us...
    
    Dave

    Here on Long Island, sheetrock walls are the norm, my house is
    45 years old and has walls that are 3/8" sheetrock with holes 
    in it, over which is 3/8" plaster.  
    
    Here's my problem, would appreciate answers from anyone who
    has actually done this work:
    
    We stripped 2 layers of wallpaper and now are faced with the 
    following problems underneath:
    
    1.  The last layer of wallpaper was put up onto non-primed
    plaster.  I have used the paper tiger with DIF wallpaper
    stripper solution, straight water, garden sprayer with 
    stripper solution and straight water solution.  Effectively,
    the plaster walls seem to absorb all moisture, the wallpaper 
    then doesn't get wet and it is extremely difficult to
    remove the paper, without scraping with a paint scraper.
    When using a scraper, we run risk (and have) damaged the
    plaster.  
    
    My question, has anyone actually run into this sort of 
    situation?  I haven't yet rented a steamer as I'm wondering
    if we'll have yet another situation where the plaster wall
    absorbs the moisture and have more of the same.
    
    2.  Same room, different wall.  This wall has three (3) layers
    of high-gloss paint, under the 2 layers of wallpaper.
    When the last layer of wallpaper came off, it took various layers
    of paint with it across the wall.  
    
    If we paint over it as is, it won't be even due to the varying
    layers of paint.  But how to remove it?????  Here, too, I'm
    concerned about scraping.  There doesn't appear to be any primer.
    Has anyone used paint remover, or is there another product I
    could use which wouldn't harm the plaster coat?
    
    Many thanks in advance,
    
    Maryanne
    
    Moderator, move this if appropriate, didn't seem as if there's an
    appropriate note already.

There are lots of wallpaper removal topics listed in 1111.105.

    RE: .1
    
    Steam it.
    
    Marc H.

    
    Would you believe that wallpaper paste can work?  Make up
    a sloppy solution and paint it over the paper.  Let it
    soak in and use a thin, pliable plastic scraper to scrape
    the paper off.
    
    The soaking time is the key - test it every 30 mins, but
    don't let it dry out (mist it with a spray every 30 mins too)
    On stubborn areas, cover with kitchen wrap to keep it wet and
    leave for longer.
    
    

    
    I don't know what is the 'proper' way to do it, but I recently
    painted over several coats of high gloss paint which was very
    uneven because there were lots of places that had chipped but 
    got painted over.  I tried to sand it out -- didn't work at all,
    so I just spackled over the bumpy areas and sanded smooth.
    Came out great, but if the problem is widespread, it's probably
    not the best solution.

I have a big, old picture window with chipping paint.  It almost certainly 
has lead paint on it-- one of those kits gave a positive reading.  Should I 
replace the whole window?  How do I go about that?  Or should I try 
stripping it?  

One other question -- The trim and door tested negative.  Also the wall 
paint tested negative.  Since they are from the same era, why wouldn't they 
have lead in them?

Thanks for your input!
-Sheila

    
    
    Maybe your door and trim were striped at one time or another and
    repainted...???   You might want to take a chip from another location
    and retest just to make sure....
    
    As far as the window goes, i'd say if its in good condition, strip
    it.  Take care to place a dropcloth and collect all the chips.
    
    JD

    Is the window facing the street? Many years ago, when my father was
    testing for lead paint, the people came in, and told my father that a
    certain window's paint was lead and insisted he strip it and repaint
    or completly change the woodwork..
    
    the joke was on them..it seems the window casing was vinyl. The lead 
    was traces from car exhaust...
    
    So, I suggest you wash thoroughly the woodwork, and retest.
    
    Anne Marie
    

    When you did the tests on the other wood, did you cut through all
    layers of paint to get the sample?  There may be a layer or two of 
    non-lead paint on top....

I cut down to the bare wood.  But I couldn't scrap and test each layer 
separately.  If you are just exposing the edge of a layer of paint, can you 
really get enough contact to determine if one of those layers has lead in 
it?  The test kit seemed to indicate that you could, but it seems hard to 
believe. 

Yes, cutting down into the paint to the wood should expose enough to get a 
positive test if there is significant lead present, but try more than one 
spot to be sure.

Also, to your question of whether or not lead would be present everywhere, 
that is not always the case.  Most lead paint was use on exterior casing 
and windows because it held up well to the elements.  It was also used on 
interior casing but very rarely used on walls.  That doesn't mean any 
particular house may not have it everywhere or only in localize spots...it 
depends on a lot of things.  You may want to have it inspected 
professionally though if you think it may be in other parts of the house.  
It is only about $50 for a full inspection.  Then you';ll have all the 
information you need to decide what to do about the window (see below)

How far you want to go with the window depends on your goals.  Do you want
a certificate that your house is lead free or just piece of mind.  If you 
want a certificate you'll have to have a licensed deleader take care of it. 
If you don't care as much you can paint over (which really doesn't solve 
the problem) or you can have all or part of the window replaced (which can 
make it worse if you don't have it done professionally).

I'd recommend having the window partially or fully replaced by a contractor 
that is licensed for lead removeal.  With the $1500 tax credit, you'll be 
out very little or no money.  However, be aware that if you go this route 
you'll have to have the whole house inspected and ALL lead discovered will 
have to be removed to get the certificate and the credit. Again, if it is 
just the window, you may be able to get yourself a new one for little out 
of pocket expense.  

We had a picture window partially replaced, a standard double hung fully 
replaced, and an entire porch completely dismantled for $1650.  Now our 
house is fully deleaded and it only cost me $150.  Of course we no longer 
have an inclosed porch but I want to turn the porch into a part of the 
house and if would have cost that much for a dumpster or to hire someone to 
dismantle it anyway.  It was a wash for me.
  
  

How do you get a picture window "partially" replaced?  Also, when and where 
did you get this work done?  That sounds like a very modest price for all 
that work.  Did that include the price of the replacement windows?

Thanks!

Our "picture" window include a fixed center unit and 2 double hung units on 
each side.  Our fixed unit was completely sealed with a storm.  Our option 
was to have the entire window replaced (with a similar unit or a 
new bay/bow) or have the double hungs replaced.  We thought about going 
with a new bay but the price would have been much higher given the cost of 
a new bay for the size opening we had ($1000+ just for the window).  We 
opted to have the double hungs replaced. 

The contractor ordered replacement windows with true divided lites so that 
they would match the fixed unit. They came primed on the outside (which 
they painted to match the house trim) and clear pine on the inside, which 
didn't match the dark stain on the inside, but we planned to completely 
paint the inside anyway.

They bought and replaced 3 double hung windows, installed a new storm on 
our other window, wraped all necessary areas with aluminum, dismantled and 
disposed of 7 porch panels, and did touch up painting and cleaning of the 
porch area.  It was a reasonable price to me and was comparable with the 
other offers we received (and not even the lowest). 

THe contractor is Gary O'Neil at First Environmental Corp. To show how 
much we trusted him we left him a key to the house, went away for the 
weekend (you have to vacate the house during the process if you have 
kids) and when we came back everything was done, including the post 
inspection.  He came by a few days later to check up and get the rest of 
the money and give us the cirtificant and tax documentation that we'll 
file next year. 

In addition to lead removal they do other contracting work.  In fact they 
gave a a good price on residing our house.  I don't have the number handy 
but I could get it...let me know.

-Greg

    Due to a peeling problem, I need to repaint the bathroom ceiling.
    First, I need to strip the old paint off.  The ceiling has 2 coats of
    latex ceiling paint and the ceiling itself is sheetrock.
    
    What I'm looking for is recommendations on stripping the paint without
    affecting the facing on the sheetrock. How to prime the ceiling once
    that's done, and thoughts on using oil based paint as opposed to latex.
    
    I've replaced the 50CFM vent fan with a 110 CFM which should go a long
    ways in helping with the steam problem (reason for the peeling) but am
    wondering about a recommendation to NOT use a water based paint in the
    bathroom because of this very problem.

    
    
    	  I can see two options.  The first would be sanding it down.  I
    	  would use and electrical orbital sander.
    
          Or I'd go over the ceiling with 3/8 sheetrock again.  Chemically 
    	  stripping it down to the old sheetrock without seriouly damaging 
          it seems like a bear, probably not impossible though.
    
    	  As far as paint, I understand there are primers and paints 
    	  especially made to help resist mildew.  I haven't used any (As
    	  of yet.)
    
    	  Just my two cents.
    
    	  /ab    

Zinnser "Texture Off" will do a pretty good job of removing the paint without
damaging the sheetrock.  There are a number of paints intended for high-moisture
areas (Zinnser, Benjamin Moore, others have them) which should work fine.
I like Zinnser's 1-2-3 primer.

				Steve

    We recently moved into my MIL's home (built either in 40's or
    20's, not sure).
    
    Much of the ceiling in the entire house is cracked, chipping and
    peeling and now beginning to fall on floor (read dust).  
    Is it possible that the ceilings were also painted with lead or
    did they not use lead in wall/ceiling paint?
    
    I'll be getting a test kit this w/e, just in case.
    
    Thanks

    Lead is possible anywhere.  Test it.  I think the odds of it being
    in paint used on walls/ceilings may be less, but it all depends on
    what kind of paint somebody happened to decide to use.

I am obtaining estimates for lead removal for a house that I am in the
process of purchasing.

Details:	23 years old
		no lead paint on inside
		lead paint on external windows trim and sills
		most windows (18) are original and are single pane

Plans:		Arrange lead paint removal from certified contractor
		Purchase (separately or from deleader) replacement
			windows as same project

Situation:	The lead inspection company (Abatement Consulting aka Lead
		Lab) referred me to several deleaders.  I called Architectural
		Deleading for a verbal estimate -- extremely rough only
		used for price negotiations.  I estimated the windows
		as 13 and he approximated a rough ball park price of
		$2300 for stripping and $4500 for replacement with
		mid-range wood replacement windows.

		After examining the house, he found the windows were 18
		and the house was bigger than he thought (irrelevant since
		the number of windows is the only key).  His formal
		estimate was $9400.  

Question:	Am I naive to be shocked?  I am getting other estimates
		(naturally).  Has anyone any experience with Alpine
		Environmental?  I am requesting Better Business Bureau
		reports on several companies.

Phil

	Re: .89

	I'm guessing you are in MA then?

	Is the house single or multi?  If single, are you living there
	or renting it out?

	I'd do replacement myself, but do the labor myself ....

>		no lead paint on inside
>		lead paint on external windows trim and sills

If the lead is only on the outside of the windows, why are you deleading?

Assuming you have standard size (~3'x4') double hungs you can expect to pay 
250-300 per window.  Thats's over $5,000 right there before you consider 
labor.  Putting in a new window can take 1-2 hours so labor adds up real 
fast.  Considering a lead abatement company will charge you more for the 
setup and disposal than a regular contractor will...it doesn't seem totally 
unreasonable. However I'd get two more lead contractor estimates (they all 
vary) and get 1-2 regular contractor estimates (just tell them you want new 
windows).  Then you'll get a real good idea of the actual cost.

BTW, having lead on the exterior sill means the dust from deteriation of 
the paint and the rubbing of the sliding could send lead dust into the 
house.  Removing is a good idea if 1-you have young kids, 2-you want an 
'Officially certified lead free home' and 3- you want the tax break 
(currently a $1500 credit).  

If you don't have kids and are a do-it-yourselfer not afraid of lead, you 
could save yourself some bucks and do them slowly over time.  But you 
wouldn't get the tax break so the ultimate savings may not be all that much 
on a job this size.  Get more estimates...you may be able to get it done 
for $8000+ depending on the quality of windows you choose.

RE: -.3

Yes, the house is in Newton, MA.  Single family, (to be) owner occupied.
The lead paint inspection took place Jan '94 but I don't know if the state
was notified.

RE: -.2

The reason that we are deleading is:
	*  We have very small children (one is 9 months old)
	*  We are safety freaks
	*  We are considering running a pre-school from our home and
		if anyone became ill, we could be liable due to the presence
		of unremoved lead paint.
	*  We like tax breaks. ;-)

RE: -.1

Greg --

Thank you very much for the detailed reply.  We do want a certified 
"lead-free" house, so I believe that DIY window replacement is out.
The work MUST be done by a certified deleader (as required by Mass law).

We'll work on some more estimates.

Thanks,
Phil

The tax breaks don't come close to paying for the deleading.

   You did say 'soon to be' owner occupied, right?  What about having the
   state-certified people do the removal and someone else (or yourself)
   do the new window installation?  Would that work for your timetable?
   Would that be less costly?
   
   Just wondering,
   
   - Tom

Of course $1500 won't cover the cost of the deleading.  However, if the homeowner 
planned on replacing the windows anyway (they are old and only single pane...it may 
be a good idea- great for energy efficiency, looks, easy of use, and resale)  Then a 
standard contractor will charge minimum of $6-7,000 for the job.  For an additional 
2000-2500 you get the deleading...which, in this case, the credit covers a good portion 
of the extra charge.

You have 3 options.

 1-Don't replace the windows and have everything either wraped, scraped or
    painted

 2-Replace just the sashes and have the sills wraped and the outer moulding wraped
     or replaced

 3-Rip the whole window out (sash, sill and moulding) and replace with new.

If 3 was what was proposed, then it varies little from what a regular contractor will do. 
 Except they will plastic off each window on the inside and pull them out form the 
outside.  No scraping, wrapping or anything.   The overhead for the 'lead removal' in 
this case is relatively small. 

Be thankful there is no lead INSIDE the house.   If you think the window replacement 
price was a shock... 	

Opening and closing a window with lead paint on the exterior, will,
if the paint flakes at all, create some level of lead dust and lead
paint flakes in the house. Removing the windows will certainly put
dust inside the house. If I were you, I would move the baby out for
the duration of the deleading.

RE: -.1

Thanks, we intend to have this work done before we take occupancy.
We will observe the work from the comfort of a nearby hotel. ;-)
Baby, big sister, Mommy, and Daddy will be safely out of harm's way.


RE:        <<< Note 2445.96 by WMOIS::ECMO::SANTORO "Greg Santoro" >>>
      -< $1500 goes a long way if the windows were to be replaced anyway >-

>> Be thankful there is no lead INSIDE the house.   If you think the window 
>> replacement price was a shock... 	

Yes, we are pleased.  We had vaguely hoped that a 23 year old house 
might just be lead free.  I guess that 15 is the magic number.  

Thanks again,
Phil

    just think about all us poor brain dead people who grew up in those
    lead encrusted homes.
    
    :-)
    
    ed

    
    There is an article in todays Herald that deals with this issue.

re -.2

I'm curious if anyone has REALLY studied the impact of lead 'back in the 
old days'  As -.2 says, we all grew up with houses LOADED with lead and it 
would be interested to know whether society as a whole is much dimmer today 
 than our kids have the potential to be in the future.

As we clean up/respond to the 'dangers' of lead, radon, asbestos they are 
typically just replaced with others.  It'll be interesting to look back 30 
years from now and assess our response to these and other environmental 
issues.

    There was an article in the Worcester Sunday Telegram two weeks ago
    (3/12) dealing with lead paint.  The article stated there was a
    training program for homeowners to learn how to do encapsulation
    themselves.  Anyone still have the paper?  Someone "helping" me with
    housework tossed it in recycle which was collected this week!  They
    offered a few telephone numbers for resources; I'm looking for the
    training information.
    Sarah

    
    re 101
    
    There was an extensive study done in Europe that went all the way back
    to the Roman era.  They took bone samples and measured the amount of
    lead absorbed in bone.  The Romans used lead for water pipes, Pewter was
    used for cooking vessesls in later ages.  My early victorian row house
    has original lead water pipes, pipes for gas mantle lighting and
    even lead sheathing on the oldest wiring.  (Mice liked to chew
    the rubber insulation).  Most European countries did not switch
    over to deleaded gas until the Eighties, so the extensive use of lead
    has a very long history.  
    
    The trouble is, it's very hard to interpret the data from such studies.
    The Romans were educated, cultured and inventive and used a lot of
    lead. The people of the dark ages were a lot more primitive but did not
    use lead as much.  Death rates in the Roman population were much better
    than later ages.  Although your average roman lived to about 35, the
    life expectancy in the dark ages was much lower.  The reason was that
    those lead pipes of the Romans were bringing fresh clean drinking and
    bathing water, a health improvement that vastly offset the risk of lead
    poisoning.
    
    The same situation exists for more modern times. During the time that
    lead waterpipe usage peaked in Victorian Britain, there was also the
    beginning of public education. So at a time where lead would in theory
    be causing more brain damage, people were appearing to be much smarter.
    
    The conclusion of the study was that there's no doubt that lead does
    cause brain damage in individual cases, but for the population as a
    whole, other trends would tend to obsure any definitive findings.  You
    can't take SAT scores from the days of leaded gas and compare them with
    today's scores then attribute the difference to deleaded.  [If you did
    that you would probably be very dissappointed in the trend anyway :')].
    
    The one difference between now and 'way back is that We are throwing
    stuff into the environment that is a lot worse than lead, and with
    absolutely no understanding of the effect.  So I guess you could say
    that knowing what we do about lead, and continuing to do what we do we
    can't be getting any smarter can we?
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

    
    O.K., so I'm a sucker for those weekend info-mercials. Does anyone 
    have any info on that QRB paint/stain remover?  It looks like it
    would be very easy but thats on t.v.  
    
    	Also, I just cleaned out my garage and found a bucket of old
    oil, a bucket of unidentifiable liquid and a can of silk screen
    stuff and a can of asbestos furnace cleaner.  These were all left
    by the previous owner.  What am I supposed to do with them. Please
    don't say "dump somewhere in the woods". I couldn't do that with a
    clean conscience and couldn't afford the fines if caught!  
    
    			Sue     WMOIS::FLECK_S

>    stuff and a can of asbestos furnace cleaner.  These were all left
>    by the previous owner.  What am I supposed to do with them. Please

    Many cities and town with recycling programs often sponsor a
    "Harzard Waste" day. This is a chance for you to bring in those
    old cans of paint, chemicals and other house solutions that you no
    longer have a need for. They, the sponsors, will have people and
    equipment on site to properly handle and dispose of the various
    wastes brought in.

    Check with your local city/town government or your local wate
    pick-up company.

    Charly

    I saw an Infommercial regarding refinishing/stripper products called
    QRB.  The kit is $49.95.  Has anyone had any experience with this
    product and kit?
    
    Also, I have taken the carpet off a set of stairs and found oak
    underneath.  Any recommendations for finishing these , (since I will
    have to fill in the holes made by the carpet holder strips).
    
    Thanks,
    Steve

	Ok, I've done a SEARCH for every note in this topic with the
	word "dip" in it, looking for hints as to what yellow pages
	headings to look under for a local company that offers a
	dipping service to remove many layers of old paint from old
	doors.

	I've looked under all the "Paint..." headings, and couldn't
	find any "strip*" or "dip*" headings.

	Does anyone know of any Nashua area businesses that "dip"?

Look under "Furniture Stripping" and "Furniture Repairing & Refinishing" in the
Yellow Pages.

-Chris

> Look under "Furniture Stripping" and "Furniture Repairing & Refinishing" in
> the Yellow Pages.

	Thanks!  My phone book didn't have the former heading, but did
	have the latter!  And I found one whose ad specifically says
	they dip doors .....

	..... however prices have gone up in the last 9 years since since
	the author of .90 got a quote of $30/door.  The quote I got
	was $95/door!  The person who answered my call indicated that
	the price has gone up something like $20 just over the last
	18 months due to increases in the price of the chemicals, and
	in disposal costs of the toxic wastes.

	And also unlike what I expected based on that This Old House
	episode where the door that came back from dipping was spotless,
	I was told that the dipping just gets off the bulk of the paint,
	that some hand stripping is still needed (not included in the
	quoted price).  I guess the TOH door was both dipped and hand
	stripped?

	While still cheaper than buying the equiv new doors, the gap
	is closing.  Though in my old house I'd still need some labor
	to custom fit new doors into the openings (some openings are
	not square :-).

	FWIW, the quoted price does include free pickup & delivery.
	"Absolute Furniture Restorers Inc", (603)-882-0200 (Nashua).